00:00:28 <FireFly> Well, 'like' would be a better translation I think, but sure
00:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> What is the minimum number of symbols (with minimalist rules) required to- in an unambiguous way- express all of traditional algebra?
00:00:54 <FireFly> oerjan: it's the go-to word for that, yes
00:01:07 <int-e> I also see that shachaf repeated himself, but with correct grammar this time.
00:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> a+b can be expressed as a-(-b), but to reduce rules we can do a-(0-b)
00:01:22 <shachaf> int-e: Look. Last time I was unsure of myself.
00:01:33 <shachaf> int-e: I looked it up on the Internet and I found a version with incorrect grammar.
00:01:46 <int-e> shachaf: Yes, I recall, vaguely.
00:02:28 <hppavilion[1]> In APL, ?B is roll B (choose an integer at random from the first B integers (nevermind that "first k integers" makes no sense)
00:02:44 <oerjan> FireFly: good. the wiktionary example seemed rather archaic ("Av konungen gillad och stadfäst.")
00:02:56 <boily> hppavilion[1]: of course it makes sense. they are the first k integers.
00:03:06 <shachaf> That's an out of context quote.
00:03:08 <shachaf> http://microapl.com/apl_help/ch_020_020_170.htm
00:03:18 <shachaf> "Generates numbers chosen at random from the series of the first N integers which start at the index origin (⎕IO)"
00:03:48 <hppavilion[1]> I expected A?B to be choosing the first B integers, minus the first A
00:04:11 <hppavilion[1]> Except A?B is basically just an array of ?B run A times
00:04:28 <boily> hppavilion[1]: -9223372036854775808 hth
00:04:43 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: yes...that is a lot more useful in an APL context than what you suggested
00:04:48 <hppavilion[1]> ...fair enough, can't think of any smaller integers
00:05:17 <hppavilion[1]> (I figured it COULD be ordering it as [0, 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, ...], but I doubted it)
00:06:19 <int-e> oh it appears that shachaf's client put a color reset code before that `learn earlier
00:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, ⌈B is the smallest integer ≥ B, ⌊B is the greatest integer ≤ B
00:06:32 <FireFly> for "the first B integers, minus the first A" you'd probably do A+?B-A
00:06:44 <shachaf> int-e: Yes. It wasn't a serious `learn.
00:07:30 <FireFly> the notation ⌈x⌉/⌊x⌋ for ceiling/floor originated in A Programming Language
00:07:52 <int-e> oerjan: I was puzzled!
00:07:58 <FireFly> as in, the book, not the later programming language that followed from the notation
00:09:15 <oerjan> int-e: it's particularly insidious because it's one of the characters that doesn't get copied in irssi...
00:09:44 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: I'm more familiar with J than APL, but AFAIK it doesn't have a 'round' primitive; you'd have to implement it in terms of ceil/floor
00:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> APL would've been more interesting with 3 functions for every operator *; A*, *B, and A*B
00:10:44 <oerjan> sorry, i got a newline on the end
00:10:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK, but... how? How do you get the fractional- wait, floor(x) if abs(x)-floor(abs(x)) < 0.5 else ceil(x). Easy.
00:11:06 <int-e> Counting to 15 is hard.
00:11:39 <oerjan> my browser doesn't show it in the logs either, so i have to paste it into irssi, and _then_ i can see on my own editing line
00:11:54 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> (ceil(-0.5) = 0, right? I assume so, but I can see it being defined as -1 just as easily, and really being better that way)
00:12:08 <int-e> my browser shows a box with 000F in it there, hmm.
00:12:18 <int-e> maybe I lack the right fonts to make it invisible.
00:12:19 <hppavilion[1]> (If we define ceil(-0.5) = -1, then ceil(x) = -ceil(-x)
00:12:28 <oerjan> i suppose i can probably see it in vim too
00:12:59 <int-e> oerjan: wait, windows, which browser?
00:13:25 * int-e is using firefox under linux, that may make a difference
00:14:05 <int-e> oerjan: stop exploding the internet
00:14:45 <int-e> (heh that's almost a plausible typo in qwerty)
00:14:47 * oerjan waves his triceratops bone cane at int-e
00:15:15 <int-e> oerjan: I knew you were living in the stone age :P
00:15:34 <shachaf> I don't mind taxes, but I don't like the idea of paying taxes that I'm not required to pay.
00:16:26 <int-e> (also I have no clue by how many million years that is off; I blame the Feuerstein family)
00:16:43 <boily> itym the Pierrafeu.
00:16:47 <oerjan> int-e: i'm pretty sure IE _used_ to show those chars, but it changed at some point.
00:17:10 <oerjan> int-e: approx. 65 million years hth
00:17:23 <int-e> I mean the Flintstones.
00:17:29 <oerjan> i think triceratops was there until the end
00:18:08 <oerjan> iirc they're just "Flint" in norwegian. or at least used to be.
00:18:12 -!- Caesura has joined.
00:18:18 <oerjan> (no:flint = en:flintstone)
00:18:24 <int-e> boily: that's all french to me
00:20:12 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: uhm, you might want to learn APL a bit before having opinions on its parsing rules :P it really wouldn't work well to have both prefix, postfix and infix
00:20:27 <oerjan> hm apparently flint means the same thing in english. material vs. piece of it?
00:20:39 <FireFly> You could come up with such a language probably, but it certainly wouldn't be APL
00:21:02 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: the original APL notation had several circumfix operators (such as floor/ceil, as mentioned)
00:21:14 <ais523> INTERCAL has a few unary operators that go one character inside their argument
00:21:18 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/APL.htm
00:21:29 <FireFly> ais523: heh, that is pretty bizarre
00:21:33 <myname> defining ceil(-0.5) as -1 is pretty stupid
00:21:52 <myname> generally speaking, ceil(x) >= x (hence the name)
00:21:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that can't happen in INTERCAL
00:22:03 <ais523> all legal operands are at least two characters long
00:22:12 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it's not ceil anymore
00:22:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And this satisfies a property that abs(ceil(x)) > abs(x)
00:22:31 <FireFly> it's "round away from zero"
00:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it could be called "magnitude ceiling" or "absolute ceiling"
00:22:55 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that's not what ceil says
00:23:03 <myname> a ceiling is ebove you, isn't it
00:23:34 <shachaf> On the other hand, I wanted a name for this operation:
00:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I have a bad habit of thinking of numbers as (sign, magnitude) rather than just value
00:24:07 <shachaf> myname: but if you stand on a mirror, you see the reflection of the ceiling below you
00:24:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:24:46 <int-e> next we'll discuss how negative numbers are imaginary...
00:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I made an operation called sign-preserving power (x^'y) that is equal to sgn(x)*abs(x)^y
00:25:08 <shachaf> If negative numbers are imaginary, what sorts of numbers are complex?
00:25:09 <myname> i never watched in a mirror and saw my foot pointing upwards
00:25:32 <myname> who would ever step _on_ a mirror
00:25:45 <oerjan> <myname> a ceiling is ebove you, isn't it <-- technically, ceilings are in the opposite direction on the opposite side of the earth >:)
00:25:48 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:26:17 <myname> oerjan: no, because downwards is not defined that way
00:27:27 <int-e> http://tinyurl.com/z52q2x6 is a bit creepy.
00:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Downwards is defined in terms of "away from the center of the earth"
00:27:51 <shachaf> What, posting tinyurl.com links in IRC?
00:28:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: and ceilings are generally upwards hth
00:28:43 <int-e> shachaf: I usually use the plain link but in this case it was long and uninformative?
00:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...And if we treat the center of the earth as the origin, that means that someone on the opposite side of the earth is closer to you than their ceiling
00:29:06 <shachaf> I clicked on it but that's only because I know you a bit, I guess.
00:29:07 <oerjan> myname: australians beg to differ
00:29:28 <int-e> http://archivelikeyou.com/files/fullimages/Jeppe_Hein_wallner_12.jpg looks like a mirror one can step on
00:29:59 <shachaf> I'm sure that if you look down into that mirror, you see the ceiling.
00:30:36 <shachaf> You know the puzzle about why mirrors flip things left-to-right?
00:30:53 <oerjan> <myname> who would ever step _on_ a mirror <-- now i'm reminded of my visit to the CN tower in toronto... (if that had only been a mirror...)
00:31:21 <hppavilion[1]> OK, mceil(x) is sgn(x)*ceil(abs(x)), ceil(x) is the smallest integer ≥x. Floor is the same (with mfloor and floor)
00:32:01 <myname> hppavilion[1]: what is it good for?
00:39:47 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA! I finally got my postcard, 28 days later... (well, 29 considering timezones)
00:40:12 <HackEgo> Fri Sep 30 23:40:00 UTC 2016
00:42:15 <boily> lifthrasiirland is so far away...
00:42:35 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>
00:47:22 <int-e> <evil>Oh maybe we should make a bin/learn command to make the illusion perfect.</evil>
00:49:11 -!- Menphis has joined.
00:51:11 <Zarutian> Perhaps you people can answer me avout a punishment device or construct of yore. What is it called that was put around the necks and hands of criminals but was not fixed in any place? Usually made out of sturdy wood.
00:51:47 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
00:52:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> How can you tell whether d^2x = 0? <-- it occurs to me that d is in some sense an _arbitrary_ derivative. so to get d^2 x = 0 you have to select the right one.
00:52:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
00:52:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/learn
00:54:29 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivation_(differential_algebra)
00:54:43 * Zarutian patiently waits for an answer.
00:57:00 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Maybe `learn should be able to detect a phrase between |vertical bars aka pipes| (after stripping /an?|the/) and use the entire phrase instead of just the first word)
00:58:24 <hppavilion[1]> (so "`learn |John Lenon| was a member of the Beatles." would put "John Lenon was a member of the Beatles." in <wisdom/John Lenon>)
00:58:27 <HackEgo> The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom.
00:59:11 <oerjan> Zarutian: or hm, not sure about the "not fixed in any place" part. although there were many variants of these things...
00:59:24 <boily> hppavilion[1]: nice usage of the «œ».
00:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn_append wisdome//Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
00:59:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdome': The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. /Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
00:59:51 <boily> wait, you didn't...
01:00:26 <Zarutian> oerjan: it fits what I had read in an Alita Battle Angel manga.
01:00:29 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: set the password of the month to <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>, but when I asked it said it was au cœur de septembre
01:00:35 * boily looks shiftily at HackEgo. «T'en sais trop sur les ligatures. C'est louche.»
01:00:44 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
01:00:49 <Zarutian> oerjan: couldnt remember what it was called exactly until you said it.
01:00:57 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan gamemanj int-e oerjan int-e oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
01:01:07 <zzo38> Do you know what is 58.86.33.135?
01:01:15 <HackEgo> password of the month? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:01:29 -!- Caesura has joined.
01:01:37 <HackEgo> [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D]
01:02:07 <oerjan> Zarutian: there were some other links in that wp article. Cangue is a chinese variant so may fit for a manga...
01:02:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/culprits
01:02:51 <oerjan> and "shrew's fiddle" was also portable.
01:03:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/hackenv/bin/hoag
01:03:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/hoag
01:04:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
01:04:44 <HackEgo> [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
01:04:59 <Zarutian> oerjan: well I was thinking more of the thing that looks like the criminal has his/her hands and head through a table plus the document describing their crime.
01:05:30 <HackEgo> [U+0054 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T] [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0020 SPACE]
01:06:27 <HackEgo> taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
01:06:35 <Zarutian> oerjan: been toying with the idea of using an 'cyberized' version of cangue in an near future sci-fi story.
01:07:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/echo-p
01:07:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what is that wissphere for?
01:07:06 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:07:25 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether i'm missing a reference, or you are
01:07:33 <boily> hppavilion[1]: reverse-culprits? a list of people that make you write wisdom entries?
01:07:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The Wisdome goes underground as well, so it should be called 'wissphere'
01:08:18 -!- heroux has joined.
01:08:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: No, you enter a username and it returns a list of the last 10 or so files that they edited
01:08:42 <hppavilion[1]> So `reverse-culprits boily would tell me what you've done with HackEgo recently
01:09:33 <boily> I haven't done much recently to HackEgo...
01:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh my god int-e's `learn was never processed by hackego...
01:10:27 <hppavilion[1]> `` unidecode <int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance> > shr/unidecoded
01:10:28 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> ``unidecode "<int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>" > shr/decoded
01:10:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `unidecode: not found
01:11:12 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do we have a reverse-culprits? <-- i don't think so. seems hard to do efficiently.
01:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> `` unidecode "<int-e> `learn The password of the month is <this service is currently unavailable due to scheduled maintenance>" > shr/decoded
01:11:23 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:11:46 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: foo: command not found
01:11:52 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode `learn <-- hint, it's before the `
01:12:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It does seem unefficiable at first, but I figure there could be a way to make Mercurial do it inefficiently for us
01:12:59 <int-e> Zarutian: http://www.pilloryhistory.com/other.html suggests "yoke"
01:13:22 <hppavilion[1]> Like, searching for all things with a description starting with "<$1>" (Do I need to escape that?)
01:14:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well yeah, as long as searching all log entries isn't too much.
01:14:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, you don't want to use `` with unidecode
01:15:14 <oerjan> i guess searching in backwards order should work if they've actually edited some
01:15:23 <hppavilion[1]> Probably only search the last ~500 (which is STILL slow, probably) and print the most recent 10 files
01:16:00 <HackEgo> wisdom/wisdome//The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
01:16:22 <HackEgo> Sat Oct 1 00:16:10 UTC 2016
01:16:28 <Zarutian> int-e: the idea is that the pillory|cangue|yoke is big enough for passerbys to see the reason why it is around that person neck plus have a loop of something like monofilament wire embedded inside that will behead the criminal if an serious attempt at removal without cryptographic authorization is performed.
01:16:53 <int-e> Zarutian: you're on your own there
01:17:07 <hppavilion[1]> If there are <10 files, just print all that you find
01:18:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: removed a / you'd accidentally left there
01:20:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I thought le//rn needed you to sacrifice a he-goat to satan though?
01:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: Do you want us to sacrifice a he-goat to satan?
01:21:06 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: they say that some guards' palms can be used to practise throwing stones at things, the big black cobra, and scholars, by edward bulwer-lytton)
01:21:14 <oerjan> they're almost the same, except le//rn requires two // but also allows you to give directories
01:21:39 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: they say that problem breathing is best known for two things. you'll probably find one on the red marble table in front of him.
01:22:01 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: lizard corpses aren't confusing. are you a gentleman? two levels ahead is a powerful artifact. anyone who carries it by half. it was locked. he could stand it no longer, until an unsuspecting creature passes by. it stands two to four feet, by snorri sturluson)
01:22:33 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
01:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: So problem breathing is best known for whatever's on the red marble table and for lizard corpses?
01:22:35 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: quetzalcoatl: one of the forest." the dear old man beamed upon her, with dried brown limbs like dead wood showing through moldering bandages. " how the wind, the wizard has hired some help. twenty other arms came rippling out.
01:23:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:23:00 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is Bierstubë.
01:23:04 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Bierstubë.
01:23:24 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
01:24:10 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:25:19 <hppavilion[1]> The number of derivatives of INTERCAL is rather ironic, given that it was designed to have no similarities...
01:25:40 <oerjan> it's a misspelling, but not of ultra.
01:26:33 <oerjan> i was trying to do INTER:INTRA::INFRA:? but i think i failed
01:28:26 <oerjan> i don't think so. inter isn't to intra what ultra is to infra.
01:30:30 <boily> INTER:INTRA::INFER:INFRA ?
01:31:03 <oerjan> INFERNAL ULTERIOR INTEGRAL
01:31:42 <HackEgo> INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
01:33:22 <boily> in the future, we'll all be COBOL programmers.
01:34:35 <oerjan> the CABAL will see to it
01:35:24 <Taneb> COBOL, the language of my ancestors
01:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> I still think #esoteric should create a language JUST reasonable enough that employers will want to make people use it, but out-of-the-ordinary enough that using it is fun (and/or infuriating) for the programmers
01:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> Java is bland and generic, with a lot of unnecessary cruft and hyper-formulaic rules
01:40:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking it will draw on math and FP and LP, but remain imperative enough to be usable
01:40:42 <hppavilion[1]> Curried functions will be the only option, for example
01:41:58 <boily> Java isn't generic. it teases you with false promises, then stabs you in the back with a blunt object.
01:42:54 <boily> remind me to copy one very nice line I wrote just to terrorise a few coworkers next Monday.
01:44:18 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
01:44:21 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
01:44:21 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
01:44:42 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
01:47:35 <hppavilion[1]> (There wouldn't happen to be any n s.t. log_n(x) = x forall x, would there?)
01:53:42 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages auto-reply auto-reply? clear-auto-reply
01:54:01 <lambdabot> auto-reply. Lets lambda-bot auto-reply if someone sends you a message
01:54:14 * oerjan didn't notice that before
01:54:16 <lambdabot> No auto-reply message given. Did you mean @clear-auto-reply?
01:54:20 <lambdabot> messages?. Tells you whether you have any messages
01:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> @ask oerjan You've already set auto-reply, haven't you?
01:56:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: x*y = log_n(x*y) = log_n x + log_n y = x+y for all x,y hth
01:56:28 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] nope
01:56:28 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
01:56:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Happa * New user account
01:59:05 <boily> oh, a new user! will it be a real person?
02:01:21 <oerjan> well they don't seem to be trying to edit
02:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Some people I've known IRL have pronounced hppavilion1 as 'hap pavilion one'
02:04:22 -!- Zoroaster has joined.
02:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, how is it even possible to go without the axiom of choice?
02:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> "[AC is] equivalent to the statement that the Cartesian product of a collection of non-empty sets is non-empty."
02:06:21 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
02:07:39 <hppavilion[1]> Last time I checked, the cardinality of the union of a collection of nonempty sets is ≥ the cardinality of any of those sets.
02:08:18 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:08:31 <hppavilion[1]> If you take the Cartesian product of a collection of sets and empty the tuples into a set, I'm pretty sure you get their union
02:09:16 <oerjan> that's equivalent to the axiom of choice hth
02:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> (that is, {('a', 1), ('a', 2), ('a', 3), ('b', 1), ('b', 2), ('b', 3)} -> {'a', 1, 'b', 2, 3})
02:09:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but I don't see any way you can argue with it
02:10:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you're assuming there are _any_ tuples in the product to start with.
02:11:23 <oerjan> also it can be proved for a finite number of sets.
02:12:07 <oerjan> to contradict AoC, you need an infinite collection of sets such that you have _no_ way of uniformly selecting an element from one.
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02:12:51 <oerjan> (the individual sets don't have to be infinite, i think.)
02:14:17 <oerjan> there's the famous quip: you need the AoC to select one element from each of an infinite set of pairs of socks, but not from an infinite set of pairs of shoes.
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02:31:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s86-Z-CbaHA again, and something is bugging me
02:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> The real numbers in the interval <0 -> 1> are uncountable, correct?
02:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe I interpreted something e said wrong; I suppose that, perhaps, not all points on the circumference can be expressed as k radians for a finite nonnegative integer k)
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02:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, Banack-Tarski is giving me a serious bad-math smell
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02:50:39 <izalove> don't think too much about banach tarski, they're just playing with sets where your idea of volume can't be applied
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03:04:53 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Bierstubë.
03:04:59 <shachaf> oerjan: I fell asleep for two hours and missed your inlaurdation
03:10:37 <HackEgo> [U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00D7 MULTIPLICATION SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+003D EQUALS SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R]
03:11:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Right, but isn't the point of all this that it's arbitrary?
03:11:20 <shachaf> If it's not completely arbitrary, what derivatives am I allowed to use?
03:12:55 <shachaf> I don't want to pick a specific derivative. What constraints do I have? I guess I can say "d is a differentiating operator such that d^2x = 0"
03:13:26 <shachaf> But thtne what am I allowed to use it on?
03:15:41 <oerjan> you can use it on any function that's differentiable enough times in a neighborhood...
03:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> Proposal: No more % (percent) (proportion multiplied by 100). Henceforth, all values are expressed in perunit (symbol like percent with short lines parallel to the main line instead of circles) (multiply by nothing because there's no actual reason to)
03:37:55 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, does the order of slices in a pie chart ever matter? Obviously if you make it like that, we all hate you, but does it matter?
03:39:05 <hppavilion[1]> (And in general, are pie chart slices supposed to scale by area or by curve subtended by angle?)
03:40:28 <zzo38> What I have implemented is by angle.
03:43:55 <hppavilion[1]> An improper sector is a sector where the ratio of the central angle to tau radians is greater than 1
03:45:12 <hppavilion[1]> (so, for example, a circle that kind of overshoots; so a sector with central angle of 3pi radians, or a sesquicircle; 1.5 circles)
03:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: By angle is most natural, but by area is probably more easy-to-understand to the human eye
03:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> (I would recommend having both, with angle as the default but area being a permitted mode)
03:48:36 <zzo38> I thought it might come out the same?
03:50:31 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: No, the area of a circular sector with a radius r and angle theta is (theta*r^2)/2
03:52:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the area is proportional to the angle unless you vary the radius (in which case it's not an ordinary pie chart)
03:52:35 <zzo38> The radius is the same for each slice though
03:52:47 <zzo38> Therefore, it does come out the same.
03:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's either a pielar angle chart or a stupid needlessly stylized pie chart
03:54:54 <oerjan> elliptical is tricky, afaiu the correspondence between angle and area isn't even an elementary function...
03:55:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: They are a thing, it looks like; a sector is (theta : angle, radius : distance)
03:55:36 <oerjan> that does seem unlikely, actually.
03:55:55 <hppavilion[1]> An elliptical sector is ((theta1 : angle, theta2 : angle), (r1 : distance, r2 : distance))
03:56:31 <oerjan> it's the arc length that's nonelementary, perhaps.
03:57:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, yes, I don't think there's a good way to calculate the circumference of an ellipse other than infinite series
03:58:28 <oerjan> technically that would be the case for a circle too, if someone hadn't declared pi, sin and cos etc. to be "easy"
03:59:27 <oerjan> yeah but you just try to calculate it without using a series somewhere :P
04:00:25 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, there's probably a generalized minor pi-yielding function (not a minor function that yields pi; a function that yields a minor pi) (not to be confused with the Pi Function that's just gamma(x+1)) that calculates the local value of pi for a proportion of the radii
04:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> So a unit elliptical (a unit ellipse is has its x-radius equal to 1 and its y-radius equal to some proportion of its x-radius (which clever people might notice is literally just any real number) sector given by theta1 and theta2 is, basically, the area bounded by a line segment from the origin to the circumference of the ellipse at angle theta1, the same to angle theta2, and the part of the ellipse's circumference between the endpoints
04:05:27 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, so an ellipse is a shape given by point (a, b), point (c, d), and distance k that includes all points (x, y) where sqrt((x-a)^2+(y-b)^2) + sqrt((x-c)^2+(y-d)^2) = k
04:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> @ask boily Do you keep a backup mapole in the channel when you aren't here?
04:07:08 * oerjan licks icing off his fingers
04:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> Can you have a hyperellipse (ntbcw a superellipse) where there are more than 2 focal points?
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04:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, the sum of the distances to the focal point is 2*R (R being max(r1, r2))
04:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> (This would be easier if we could use pretty math)
04:11:13 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: For any shape there's often multiple useful ways to specify it
04:11:34 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: This was the way relevant to what I was saying
04:12:33 <FreeFull> Yeah, the "Take two points, an ellipse is the locus you get when the sum of distances to the points is equal to a constant" definition is one of the most common
04:12:43 <FreeFull> You can also define an ellipse as a stretched circle
04:13:05 <FreeFull> In which case you have a centre point, a minor radius, and a major radius
04:14:46 <hppavilion[1]> OH! I created a symbol for derivatives that made me happy today. You write a special derivative symbol, a number n below it (nth derivative; if you want the 1st derivative then n can be dropped), the variables it's with respect to separated by commas terminated with a colon (if it's just 'all the variables', you can drop this part), then the thing you're derivativing. It took me several hours to realize the special derivative symbol I
04:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> (it only had one horizontal stroke though. It might have been something else, really, but I don't remember any other similar-looking symbols. It was intended to look like a capital ε- basically a larger ϵ, I suppose- but not just an E)
04:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yep, centrepoint is what I use for fonts
04:17:13 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: More like €_1 f(x), but the _1 could be dropped too because it's the default
04:17:30 <FreeFull> I wonder if four points on the circumference are enough to uniquely specify any ellipse
04:17:49 <FreeFull> Three definitely aren't enough
04:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: It depends on whether any happen to be the same
04:18:25 <FreeFull> For 5 I can think of arrangements that don't give a valid ellipse
04:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: No, you can uniquely specify any circle with 2 points
04:18:52 <izalove> not if the points lie on the circumference
04:18:56 <oerjan> FreeFull: right, but you cannot expect less than 5, still
04:19:11 <FreeFull> You can uniquely determine a circle with 3 points on the circumference
04:19:18 <oerjan> because ellipses are like an open subset of all conics
04:19:20 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: by the same reasoning you can specify any ellipse with 3 points
04:19:28 <hppavilion[1]> You can uniquely specify any conic section with at MOST 5 points, and that's where it might not be an ellipse
04:19:43 <shachaf> how many points do you need to specify an eclipse?
04:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Earth, moon, sun, several vectors of speed, probably some mass.
04:20:25 <FreeFull> Yeah, I specifically was thinking of points on the circumference
04:20:37 <FreeFull> Hmm, let's consider the vertices of a square
04:20:43 <FreeFull> Can we fit more than one ellipse to those?
04:20:50 <hppavilion[1]> In my head the 3 points on the circumference of a circle are arranged in an equilateral triangle; is this enough?
04:20:59 <FreeFull> I think four points aren't enough
04:21:08 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yes, one is the other rotated 90 degrees
04:21:29 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: 3 points are enough for a circumference
04:21:29 <hppavilion[1]> (which is equivalent to swapping major and minor ~arcana~ radii)
04:21:54 <izalove> they don't have to be an equilateral triangle
04:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Well yes, but they happened to be internally
04:22:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: if you allow choosing _special_ points on the circle, then obviously 2 are enough.
04:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> If you allow the point to be anywhere, you can probably do it with 1
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04:26:54 <FreeFull> For a circle you just need the diameter
04:27:05 <FreeFull> For an ellipse a diameter and a radius
04:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: But if you can use arbitrary points that may not even have significance to it, you can do it with a single point in 1D
04:29:04 <FreeFull> That depends on if you're allowed to depend on the point's coordinates
04:29:10 <FreeFull> You might not be given coordinates at all
04:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> An ellipse centred at (x, y) with radius r (all are real numbers) can be represented by literally just lacing the bits if you have to
04:29:25 <\oren\> I started a new game as france. I created my own alliance with the czechoslovakia, yugoslavia, and romania.
04:30:02 <\oren\> When Germany demanded the sudetenland, I responded by invading the rhineland
04:30:47 <\oren\> By the time hitler had decided to go around the maginot line through belgium I already took franfurt, koln and essen
04:31:28 <\oren\> I think I can probably win world war two by 1940
04:32:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Why don't you just start the game half a century earlier and kill baby Hitler?
04:32:41 <\oren\> the czechs just took vienna. get rekt hitler
04:34:07 <\oren\> oh and they took breslau in the north
04:34:30 <\oren\> it's 1938 only. germany hasn't done anything with poland yet
04:34:44 <\oren\> so poland won't join my faction
04:37:59 <FreeFull> \oren\: Napoleon briefly recreated Poland as its own state back when Poland was partitioned between other countries
04:38:26 <FreeFull> But when the napoleonic wars failed, Poland ended up getting partitioned again
04:39:34 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/GetRektHitler.PNG
04:40:48 <FreeFull> So yeah, historically real Poland has had good ties with France
04:40:49 <\oren\> how's that for chease eating surrender monekys!?!
04:40:57 <FreeFull> And horrible luck with Germany and Russia
04:41:39 <\oren\> poland isn't even in the war though. hitler hasn't had enough time because I invaded him instead of gving him the sudetenland
04:42:16 <\oren\> so poland is just chilling, and for some reason he invaded the baltics and annexed them
04:43:03 <\oren\> so on the side, poland curbstomped latvia and lithuania while I was preparing to invade germnay
04:44:29 <FreeFull> What will you do about Russia?
04:45:37 <\oren\> no idea. hopefully I can get turkey or poland in my faction so I can have a wider front than just romania
04:46:15 <\oren\> if it's just romania, russia might crush me with sheer numbers of infantry
04:48:52 <\oren\> with a wide front, I can have my cavalry and jeeps run and surround enemy forces quicker than you can say une deux tres
04:50:52 <\oren\> czech forces are untering dresden
04:51:20 <\oren\> french forces have reached the coast of the nroth sea
04:52:01 -!- Elronnd has left.
04:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> Gary Johnson's position on climate change (I swear, this is 1.0 perunit real): The earth is getting warmer and it's man-made. But the sun will explode in several billion years and destroy the planet anyway, and what's the difference between ending all life on earth in ~200 years vs. several billion? Really?
04:56:36 <\oren\> gary johnson also doesn't know where aleppo is, and can't name a foreign leader he likes
04:57:10 <\oren\> even trump can do both those things. admittedly he likes putin, but hey at least it's an answer
04:58:13 <hppavilion[1]> Being able to say 'Putin' better than not knowing about Putin
04:59:15 <\oren\> wait, hitler made the molotov ribbentop pact NOW?!?! with french tanks in nuremberg?
04:59:32 <\oren\> if poland enters the war he's dead for sure
04:59:42 <hppavilion[1]> Admittedly, only about 0.001 perunit of Americans knew about Aleppo until that happened, but OTOH, 0.001 perunit of americans are RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT
05:01:21 <\oren\> they don't model that in the game so you don't feel as much an asshole if you play as hitler
05:01:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ...but that's probably the only reason I'd play as Hitler in the first place
05:04:17 <\oren\> in itlay I'v taken milan and genoa now.
05:05:10 <\oren\> oh, and libya is now all mine
05:05:24 <hppavilion[1]> Protip: When siphoning someone else's internet, don't risk them putting a password on their wifi; set the admin password yourself
05:05:28 <\oren\> time to go wouth and liberate ethiopia
05:07:04 <\oren\> speakign of aleppo, france owned aleppo at the time of world war 2
05:07:18 <\oren\> along with all of syria
05:07:34 <\oren\> if they had kept it none of this bullshit would have happened
05:15:13 <FreeFull> Trump elected as president. USA becomes Russia 2
05:17:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49833&oldid=49760 * Happa * (+289) /* Introductions */
05:18:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Happa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49834 * Happa * (+110) Created page with "An esoteric language developer. Created: * [[Refunge]] (Some others will be added as I create pages for them)"
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05:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: As long as you're in Syria, could you destroy Aleppo?
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05:34:29 <izalove> https://arin.ga/wugdyM/raw someone please compile this on their machine and tell me the results
05:34:58 <izalove> gcc rot256.c; ./a.out < /dev/zero 2>/dev/null
05:35:32 <izalove> takes 20s to run on a crappy laptop
05:37:17 <zzo38> Some more Magic: the Gathering cards I made up now is the cycle of five monocolor Elder Wizards: John Whistlet, Xlif Barpy, Margia Hazmaad, Zonak Masp, Garof Asengia.
05:39:02 <hppavilion[1]> If there were two sounds that were allophones in ALL known languages, would it even be reasonably possible to tell?
05:40:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49835 * Happa * (+7537) First version of the page.
05:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> (New Rule: the world 'allophone' is henceforth pronounced [æl ɫoʊ foʊn], making it good for explaining what it is)
05:45:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49836&oldid=49778 * Happa * (+14)
05:47:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Refunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49837 * Hppavilion1 * (+277) Yæ
05:48:17 <^v> wana hear what you guys think
05:48:18 <^v> http://hastebin.com/raw/gicalepido
05:49:01 <^v> (assembly that compiles into brainfuck, designed to be generated from a higher level compiler)
05:49:29 <^v> in the sample code i show a working indexable string "type"
05:50:18 <^v> it differentiates itself from existing compilers because it supports (relatively advanced) stack "multiplexing"
05:50:29 <^v> so multiple dynamically sized objects can co-exist
05:51:37 <^v> basically everything here can be implemented without hassle https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
05:52:51 <^v> hppavilion[1], yes
05:55:50 <^v> hppavilion[1], where the program pops the main stack which causes a singularity that destroys everything
05:56:38 <^v> n-plexing would just be multiplexing i guess?
05:56:46 <^v> n includes 1
05:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> OK, it's where multiple signals are merged. Presumably, stack multiplexing is where a bunch of stacks are put together
05:57:54 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: multiplexing includes 1 or any other number; n-plexing is the specific case where you're plexing n signals
05:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> multiplexing is n-plexing for arbitrary n (or for a constrained but otherwise-arbitrary n)
05:58:21 <^v> so you can "push" a group of stacks ontop of another, these stacks are multiplexed together by multiplying the < and > in brainfuck code "seeked" to values on those stacks
05:58:36 <^v> and yes, you can push just 1 stack ontop of another
05:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> monoplexing is the degenerate case of multiplexing that's basically just having one signal, but in a way that implies it COULD be more than one
05:58:57 <^v> useless functionality wise
06:02:19 <^v> the magic happens because its all passive to your code, code originally designed to be used on a single stack system (Brainfuck_algorithms) written in this lang can use variables that exist on different stack levels seamlessly
06:04:33 <^v> you can copy paste for example a bf self-interpreter and it would just use the stack you put it on as if it were its own tape (assuming it doesn't seek backwards :s)
06:08:23 <hppavilion[1]> In math, there's a theorem called the Squeeze Theorem
06:08:36 <hppavilion[1]> Several other languages call it the Two Policemen and a Drunk theorem.
06:16:53 <^v> bugs bugs bugs
06:16:57 <^v> i broke stacks somehow
06:22:39 <^v> okay they are fixed, because i hate myself i created 5 completely redundant stacks http://pastebin.com/raw/TqNGLkLC
06:22:47 <^v> code prints "Oii" as expected
06:23:17 <^v> theres no reason stackception + 1 shouldnt work
06:23:42 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: In Polish it seems to be "theorem about three trains"
06:24:13 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, MLP:FiM in german is Freundschaft ist Magie. I'll try to find that...
06:24:37 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Oh, three sequences actually
06:24:57 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Wat? "sequence" and "train" are the same?
06:25:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Wait, I guess the mathematical word "sequence" was probably taken from "train")
06:25:59 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Actually train is pociąg rather than just ciąg
06:26:26 <FreeFull> "Theorem about three sequences" is a pretty boring name
06:26:38 <hppavilion[1]> I actually know so little about polish that my knowledge isn't just negative; it's negative AND imaginary.
06:27:26 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: So, you've got fairly complex knowledge of Polish? =P
06:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: ...what's the joke here? Is it that polish is horrendously complicated?
06:28:17 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: No, just purely a joke about complex numbers
06:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Are we allowed to combine complex and split-complex numbers?
06:29:27 <myname> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean with "find that"?
06:30:13 <hppavilion[1]> Because I don't think there's any way to legally obtain it here
06:30:38 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Mix in dual numbers for extra kick
06:31:01 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Dunno, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercomplex_number
06:31:18 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: When you have that many parts, you need so many coefficients that you almost use 'i' as a coefficient
06:31:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Even the DVDs are probably in a different region)
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06:33:04 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Should be pretty easy to find on the internet
06:34:41 <FreeFull> That's what we get for abusing the alphabet
06:36:07 <FreeFull> Quaternions don't run into this issue, because ij=k, jk=i and ki = j
06:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: I don't understand how that works; what exactly are they?
06:39:40 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: They're all square roots of -1
06:40:22 <FreeFull> Also, multiplication isn't commutative
06:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So they do 3D rotations, but what if I want 4D rotations?
06:41:37 <FreeFull> I don't think pentenions are a thing
06:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> (and if real is for 1D and complex describes 2D, but quaternions are for 3D... what are trinions?)
06:42:24 <hppavilion[1]> (And what's the pattern? nD is done with 2^(n-1)ions?
06:45:41 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: You don't need complex numbers for 2D rotations, a single real number will do
06:46:15 <FreeFull> Keeping in mind, all rotations are around the origin
06:46:22 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember that you rotate in 2D by using x+yz and multiplying various things
06:46:26 <^v> because i super hate myself http://pastebin.com/raw/0YAh76sg
06:46:55 <^v> bar1 bar2 bar3 are level 15 stacks :v
06:47:49 <^v> full sauce, i fixed some things http://pastebin.com/raw/0yu2GFpD
06:47:57 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Yes, there is a connection between complex multiplication and 2D rotations, but the only important thing in 2D rotations is the angle, and you can encode that in a single real number
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06:51:01 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Hm, apparently you can represent a 4D rotation using a pair of quaternions
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06:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Let us have a moment of silence for the poor M-theorists, who have to use millivigintiquaternions
06:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, a moment of silence on #esoteric is just #esoteric...)
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06:54:46 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: I don't think octionions are connected directly to rotations in R^n for some n
06:55:33 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: One thing that connects real numbers, complex numbers, quaternions and octonions together is the Cayley-Dickson construction
06:56:04 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Pair of quaternions. Quaternions have 4 parts, so a pair has 8. I hypothesize that you could equivalently use some 8-dimensional hypercomplex (most likely standard octonions) with identical effect
06:57:13 <myname> the point about octonions is them having 8 parts
06:57:26 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction
06:57:28 <myname> a pair of quaternions does not
06:57:46 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself.
07:00:32 <FreeFull> You could make a comment about it on the talk page or something
07:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> What's really fun is that some operators can be self-distributive: a⁂(b⁂c) = (a⁂b)⁂(a⁂c)
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07:57:44 <myname> that thing where you never fully redefined || correctly?
08:12:38 <hppavilion[1]> (-1)^2 = @, @ != 1, |x| = sqrt(sum([cof(n)^2 for n in components(x))), where components(x) returns the parts as a list (so components (a+bi) = [a, bi]) and cof(n) is just the coefficient of a number- cof(ki) = k
08:13:13 <hppavilion[1]> New keyboard: latin-greek; normal ASCII, BUT it can also type greek letters on the altgr. Good for mathing.
08:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, supposedly, the reason we use QWERTY is that when we used ABCDEF, keys that were used frequently were close by and would be struck in too rapid succession, leading to mechanical errors. But Germany uses QWERTZ; did Germans use German engineering to overcome the mechanics?
08:15:24 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I presume German has different letter combination frequencies to English
08:15:29 <Taneb> French uses AZERTY
08:17:14 <myname> qwertz doesn't make much sense imho
08:17:29 <myname> since tz and zu are pretty common
08:17:48 <myname> but neither are ty or yu nor za/zsg...
08:19:57 <Taneb> Well, in English, re is reasonably common
08:21:29 <myname> well, yeah, but i don't get why germans switched y and z in particular
08:22:28 <myname> combinations with any vowel are reasonably common
08:22:43 <myname> but they have to be somewhere
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08:23:36 <myname> are there third-party layouts for other languages?
08:23:47 <myname> i know dvorak for english and neo for german
08:23:56 <myname> but i am not aware of anything else
08:24:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'm replaciŋ ðe symbol for esh in ðe Eŋgliʃ Reformed Alphabet from ʃ to σ
08:24:35 <myname> notable mentions for neo: arrow keys are on the home row
08:24:41 <myname> which is kinda awesome
08:24:51 <myname> but on the other hand, it completely breals hjkl
08:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: My left and up arrow keys don't work for no apparent reason
08:38:20 <hppavilion[1]> "FACT: The linguist mafia will run you over with a bus if you break your vow of descriptivism"
08:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently blond and blonde are different words that carry gender
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08:49:28 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], it's what we get for stealing everything from the French
08:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Even learning German, I'm kind of tempted to reject it as part of ðe language
08:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> If I just call everything neuter (Das), people will probably get it and just get used to it
08:54:49 <myname> and will think of you as a weirdo and will probably try staying away from you
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09:00:43 <hppavilion[1]> That basically describes what most Americans think of EVERY german
09:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> (Or Canadian, or Brit, or pretty much anybody, honestly)
09:01:35 <myname> hppavilion[1]: donjt worry the whole world thinks the same about americans
09:02:09 <hppavilion[1]> ...God. I hate prescriptivism, but I do have to correct people when they use the wrong "the'ir" and "your'e". How do I reconcile this contradiction?
09:32:18 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
09:32:30 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Bierstubë.
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10:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> Theorem: There are countably many possible gods (not in the sense of "exists" but in the sense of "yeah, I guess you could make that a religion or something")
11:00:03 <hppavilion[1]> Proof: Each god can described by a finite series of symbols taken from a finite alphabet (in fact, they can be described by several- probably countably many- of these). Sure, most combinations are meaningless, but we'll just ignore those.
11:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> The gods can be trivially mapped surjectively to the natural numbers by taking a holy book describing them, ordering the alphabet (A), and- starting with n=1- for each symbol indexed in A by c, multiplying n by c*|A|^k for each symbol in the book at index k (basically, I'm just using base-whatever)
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11:10:12 <shachaf> The general idea of your proof is obvious to anyone who knows enough to understand it.
11:10:23 <shachaf> Except for the first sentence, which is an unfounded assumption.
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11:18:35 <hppavilion[1]> What branch of Philosophy covers humor? The best I can think of is Aesthetics, but I wouldn't exactly call a Priest and a Rabbi walking into a bar 'beautiful'
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11:36:15 <myname> why would you put that in philosophy in the first place?
11:43:04 <myname> did you ever read snow crash?
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12:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> Factorial is to subfactorial as triangle numbers are to what?
12:12:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: go read snow crash
12:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yes, but... what do subtriangles even describe?
12:13:05 <myname> it's one of the basic books for computer scientists
12:13:17 <myname> together with douglas adams trilogy
12:13:35 <hppavilion[1]> Trilogy? I seem to remember there being 5, plus the salmon of doubt
12:13:48 <izalove> also called the trilogy in 5 parts
12:14:18 <hppavilion[1]> x triangltorial is the sum of all integers from 0 to x, which is equal to x(x-1)/2
12:14:22 <myname> in german it's often called "vierteilige trilogie in 5 bänden"
12:14:45 <myname> so, 4 parts of a trilogy in 5 books
12:15:30 <int-e> In English there's the "fifth book in the increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhikers Trilogy"
12:17:10 <int-e> And apparently also "A trilogy in four parts".
12:17:22 <hppavilion[1]> A formula exists that subfact(x) = fact(x) * summ(0, x, lambda n: (-1)^n/fact(n))
12:17:52 <hppavilion[1]> Would subgamma (generalized subfactorial the same way gamma is generalized factorial) be the same, but s/fact/gamma/?
12:19:41 <myname> you're still not reading snow crash
12:20:49 <myname> well, depends on where you look for it
12:20:57 <int-e> Don't give hppavilion[1] interesting things to read; I might have to unignore him...
12:21:42 <myname> but you seem to know that book
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12:22:54 <nothppavilion> But no, really, am I (a) on ignore and (b) why and (c) your client ignores hostnames, doesn't it?
12:23:36 <myname> to be fair, you spam a lot
12:24:00 <myname> also, you make it intentionally harder to communicate with you
12:25:07 <myname> like when yountry to make your own alphabet
12:25:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I don't use ERA in #esoteric at the request of people whose clients don't like unicode
12:26:00 <myname> you did like in the last 24 hours at least
12:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> I use it literally everywhere else though, and an eth occasionally manages to slip out
12:27:11 <myname> i wonder why people don't hate you elsewhere
12:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> Because eths are literally everywhere when writing; "the", "this", "that", "there", "they", "them", etc.
12:27:21 <int-e> myname: I've not read Snow Crash, I believe.
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12:29:20 <hppavilion[1]> u = summ(0, inf, λ n -> 1/subfact(n), λ n -> n ≠ 1)
12:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> (I wonder if the sum of reciprocal triangle numbers is significant)
12:31:28 <int-e> actually I probably have read it, but I remember very little about it.
12:33:12 <int-e> Maybe all the memes taken over by Daniel Suarez' Daemon series (there's some thematic overlap).
12:34:00 <hppavilion[1]> ...the limit of the reciprocal triangular sum is 2
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12:36:22 <int-e> And then there's Gibson (Neuromancer)
12:44:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49838&oldid=39253 * Martin Ender * (+39)
12:44:44 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, ((positive) integer) powers are closely related to n-cubes
12:45:57 <hppavilion[1]> (mainly so, while you can say "x squared" for x to the power 2, you can say "x triangled" for x to the whatever-this-is 2
12:47:06 <fizzie> Huh, that felt weird. Python's pip thing used a progress bar that went all ▏ ▎ ▍ ▌ ▋ ▊ ▉ █ smoothly.
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12:54:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Swordfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49839 * Martin Ender * (+223) Created page with "This is tagged as Implemented, but I can't seem to be able to find an implementation. Is an interpreter available somewhere? --~~~~"
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13:01:21 <hppavilion[1]> This is the feeling you get when you use computers
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13:36:01 <HackEgo> bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
13:42:11 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] asked 9h 36m 20s ago: Do you keep a backup mapole in the channel when you aren't here?
13:42:42 <boily> hppavellon[1]! no, but that's a good idea!
13:42:58 <boily> to whom shall I entrust my trusty mapole?
13:43:36 <boily> you can do anything with a mapole.
13:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> I wish https://xkcd.com/136/ was real... I would read that paper.
13:45:54 <hppavilion[1]> According to wikipedia: "A person who performs cunnilingus may be referred to as a cunnilinguist."
13:48:09 <boily> would that imply making sounds while you're performing?
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14:25:43 <boily> > 3 / 5 + pi / (7 - pi)
14:32:11 <boily> I have no fungotting idea.
14:32:12 <fungot> boily: e333 you can't manage that, the `next' act too much like `come from' and/ or modify this document under the gnu autoconf ( configure); its autoconf source code), and one of them may be a clue that you don't put it?
14:40:54 <myname> you may approximate pi by 3+(3/5+pi/(7-pi))/10
14:45:48 <quintopia> `le/rn amphiboily/Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
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14:51:27 <boily> Y'avait a girl from Gatineau deux nuits que j'était en vacation. Probablement le code switch le plus mind bending que j'ai jamais entendu.
14:52:52 <boily> En plus qu'elle teachait l'anglais in Korea, et qu'elle translatait du coréen en cantonese au monde à l'auberge.
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16:29:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49840&oldid=49028 * Conor O'Brien * (+27) /* Languages I have made */
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17:46:37 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself. <-- someone back in 2014 did a faulty merge, presumably because they didn't understand that "algebra" has several meanings. i fixed it.
17:46:37 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
17:47:06 <oerjan> int-e: any chance of removing that stupid feature
17:48:36 <oerjan> int-e: (the lambdabot lines contain a nick you're ignoring, in case you're confused)
17:50:46 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] also if you want any more @tells, remove that stupid response twh
17:50:46 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] lets you know: haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaands
18:10:13 <HackEgo> Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
18:10:38 <oerjan> `slwd amphiboily//s/F/Amphiboily is F/
18:10:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole
18:11:07 <oerjan> `slwd amphiboily//s/$/./
18:11:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole.
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18:27:35 <int-e> oerjan: probably won't remove it; it's actually working as intended: it allows people to let other people know that they don't want @tell messages
18:28:18 <int-e> (I forgot who requested it though, and I wouldn't go out of my way to advertise the feature)
18:29:12 <int-e> Yay, I finally got a Nikoli competition puzzle right in the first attempt. I failed to do that for the two previous ones...
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18:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RubE On Conveyor Belts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49841&oldid=44824 * Martin Ender * (+40)
18:45:06 <zzo38> I think goto command ought to be added into JavaScript and a few others of the good feature from C, which also has macro preprocessor and setjmp/longjmp. Although, in JavaScript it could be made a better way than the C way.
18:46:04 <zzo38> With sufficiently general macros, call/cc could be implemented in strict mode.
18:47:03 <ais523> how much of the JavaScript state would be "inside" the continuation, and how much would be global?
18:49:12 <zzo38> Local variables might be inside, if it is declared inside of a continuation function, otherwise it isn't.
18:49:33 <zzo38> You would have to declare individual functions as continuation functions if it were to be implemented entirely with macros.
18:50:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minkolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49842&oldid=44756 * Martin Ender * (+66)
18:50:31 <zzo38> (But you could also make some local variables "outside" of the continuation if you wanted to, as well; depending how it is implemented)
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19:54:44 <myname> how would you think a multiplayer mode for a df like should work? all i can figure out is something like a time terminated 1vs1 or the like
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20:16:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49843 * ETHproductions * (+4580) Created page with "'''Cubix''' is a stack-based 2-dimensional language where the code is wrapped around a cube. == Overview == Cubix was inspired by [[Labyrinth]] and [[Hexagony]], both stack-..."
20:21:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:ETHproductions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49844 * ETHproductions * (+343) Added user page for ETHproductions
20:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49845&oldid=49836 * ETHproductions * (+12) Added Cubix to language list
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20:33:26 <zzo38> Apparently tail calls are not yet implemented in Node.js
20:36:00 <shachaf> "return f();" is an error?
20:37:51 <quintopia> who was it who was asking about the cost of finding the set of strings that are within a certain levdnshtein distance?
20:37:55 <zzo38> No, it is valid, but it is not implemented as a tail call.
20:38:17 <zzo38> The program will do the correct thing but it is not as efficient as it should be.
20:38:51 <zzo38> (And in some cases may result in a stack overflow if tail calls are not implemented.)
20:38:54 <quintopia> this algorithm has a much faster average case: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-programming-algorithm-that-you-have-ever-created/answer/Leo-Polovets?srid=i3Gd&share=82807028
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21:22:22 <ais523> I don't drink alcohol; I don't like the taste
21:22:44 <ais523> (I realised this after trying both alcoholic and non-alcoholic wine and preferring the non-alcoholic wine)
21:24:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's a valid comparison, I'm sure there could be other differences between the wines in question.
21:29:22 <shachaf> Is non-alcoholic wine grape juice?
21:30:13 <shachaf> I should try non-alcoholic wine.
21:32:51 <int-e> no, the alcohol is removed after fermentation... in particular most of the sugar will still be gone
21:34:10 <int-e> http://winefolly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/non-alcoholic-wine-reverse-osmosis.png looks plausible
21:37:18 <zzo38> I think they say "goto" is not a reserved word in JavaScript anymore and therefore you can't add a goto statement, but I think it is not a problem as long as it doesn't accept a computed goto and there is no line break between the word "goto" and the name of the label to go to. If it is a problem though, you could use the keyword "->" instead perhaps.
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21:58:00 <zzo38> I have the idea about making macros in JavaScript, which would involve some new kind of syntax: \{ ... } executes statements in a macro context, \( ... ) executes an expression in a macro context (the value of the expression is expected to be either a string or a AST object), (| ... |) makes a expression AST object, {| ... |} makes a statement AST object. Do you like this?
22:03:16 <zzo38> (It is somewhat like Template Haskell.)
22:14:01 * quintopia wonders if APic says more than one word at a time
22:23:04 <int-e> I'm thinking "a picture", but it must be wrong: A picture says more than a thousand words.
22:23:43 <quintopia> i was thinking programmable integrated circuit
22:24:05 <int-e> quintopia: APIC = advanced programmable interrupt controller
22:25:29 <quintopia> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontroller
22:25:31 <int-e> people can't memorize computer industry acronyms
22:25:34 <APic> Good old Times. ☺
22:26:37 <int-e> APic: quite old joke :)
22:26:41 <Zarutian> int-e: because there are so many of them and with contradictory expansions.
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22:27:18 <quintopia> int-e i didnt notice the pcmcia until you said ir was a joke
22:27:30 <int-e> (what was it, PC memory card industry association?)
22:27:55 <int-e> no, international. close though.
22:28:52 <zzo38> I am making program to save JavaScript objects into a file and then to be able to load them from a file.
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22:29:14 <quintopia> why do you find json insufficient?
22:29:41 <zzo38> JSON can work for some things.
22:30:01 <quintopia> and you can convert anything into those some things
22:30:03 <zzo38> But, JSON cannot store all JavaScript values; for example it cannot store multiple references to the same object.
22:30:17 <zzo38> It is also inefficient when using ArrayBuffers.
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22:31:42 <zzo38> The program I am making uses a binary file format rather than text, so names of keys do not need to be repeated. Also it can contain references to objects and symbols from outside.
22:32:35 <zzo38> If you want security you can omit the external types you don't want. Note that functions cannot be serialized in this format, anyways. So there are still some limitations; but it can encode a lot more than JSON.
22:34:38 <Zarutian> zzo38: encycle.js or some such by Crockford iirc has ibid refs for internal references in object graphs serialized to JSON
22:35:16 <zzo38> O, OK, but I am making my own now anyways. I wrote half of it already.
22:36:49 <zzo38> (Also, my program is not pure JavaScript and requires Node.js)
22:37:02 <Zarutian> zzo38: external types? are those like the module and class names in pickling in python?
22:38:07 <zzo38> I don't know about pickling. External type in my program is what you can associate an object with a function, and when it tries to serialize an object with that prototype it will emit a header and then call the named function in order to do so.
22:38:35 <zzo38> So in that way you can serialize objects that have internal slots.
22:39:16 <Zarutian> zzo38: oh so like an unevaler in http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Safe_Serialization_Under_Mutual_Suspicion then?
22:39:37 <zzo38> (Or, if you have some global variable in your program which needs to keep track of all objects of a specified type, for some reason.)
22:39:48 <Zarutian> zzo38: what is in this header? the name of the function?
22:40:09 <zzo38> (And a further use of this is to encode the object more efficiently.)
22:40:38 <zzo38> Zarutian: No; it is a number that identifies the function. You must define the same external objects/symbols and external types for writing as you do for reading.
22:42:19 <Zarutian> zzo38: I see, so you are stepping around the 'run this arbritrary chosen (by name) function to deserialize this object' by using that num2extobjtype scheme
22:42:42 <Zarutian> zzo38: which means that one can implement graph exits in your format easily
22:45:23 <Zarutian> (for the cases where you want a serialize an object graph where some objects are pointing to unserializable objects whose replacements will exists at deserialization time.)
22:45:29 <zzo38> (Also, the implementation of this serializer does not even know the names of any functions; it only associates each of the objects defined as an external type with a number and a function. It can then read it either by number or by object as the key. Storing a number also will make the file smaller than storing the name of the function anyways, and the function might not even have a name; nor does it necessarily have access to the correct context e
22:45:41 <zzo38> Zarutian: Yes, you can do that.
22:46:38 <Zarutian> zzo38: got any documentation on this format yet?
22:47:31 <zzo38> Not published; I only have it hand-written in a book. I will publish on computer once this program is published, though.
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22:49:45 <Zarutian> zzo38: got a smartphone handy with a camera? I am rather curious how this format looks
22:50:17 <zzo38> I haven't any; sorry.
22:52:04 <quintopia> everyone knows you finish what you start
22:52:05 <zzo38> You can wait until it is published and then you can read it.
22:53:03 <Zarutian> quintopia: why do you think I am asking for pictures, eh?
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23:17:43 <Zarutian> quintopia: so, I am asking you this: putting obsticales such as ASLR and others of the same kind is increasing computer security in your eyes?
23:18:32 <Zarutian> quintopia: a rude probing question but should be (thought) provoking, no?
23:18:53 <zzo38> ASLR meaning what?
23:19:47 <Zarutian> Address Space Layout Randomization
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23:21:55 <zzo38> I think it is just complicating stuff, and that other methods can be used for memory protection.
23:22:48 <zzo38> An option to randomize addresses for a compiled program in a compiler can help with finding errors though.
23:24:07 <Zarutian> it is an inaffective bandaid on the festering fleshwound that is due to idotic choices made way way back in the day.
23:24:44 <Zarutian> zzo38: why does randomizing addresses for a compiled progam held with finding errors?
23:26:18 <zzo38> To see if something incorrectly accesses a wrong address by using invalid array indexing or whatever (although there are other ways to do this too, but these other ways might cause the program to run more slowly). However, such option should be used only during testing.
23:26:20 <Zarutian> btw next level in 'fuzzing' is probably something like adaptive markov-chain-generated fuzzing.
23:27:49 <Zarutian> (eliminate those fuzzes that are caught early by the program until you basically are banging against the edge cases)
23:27:57 <zzo38> I think the "Future Systems" 128-bit processor might be capable of detecting invalid pointers though.
23:28:39 <Zarutian> zzo38: not so much future as being an sparse capability system in disguise, I would think.
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23:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> Analogy clause of the day: minority:majority::?:plurality
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23:52:15 <oerjan> i hope that " wasn't supposed to be there.
23:53:24 <izalove> do you know any good site for downloading anime subs?
23:53:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 7m 17s ago: <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_algebra contains a link that redirects to itself. <-- someone back in 2014 did a faulty merge, presumably because
23:53:54 <lambdabot> they didn't understand that "algebra" has several meanings. i fixed it.
23:53:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 3m 7s ago: also if you want any more @tells, remove that stupid response twh
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23:58:02 <oerjan> huh "count" and "compute" are cognates.
23:58:30 <lambdabot> *** "cognate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:58:30 <lambdabot> adj 1: related in nature; "connate qualities" [syn: {connate},
23:58:30 <lambdabot> 2: having the same ancestral language; "cognate languages"
00:00:13 <lambdabot> 3: related by blood [syn: {akin(p)}, {blood-related}, {cognate},
00:00:13 <lambdabot> {consanguine}, {consanguineous}, {consanguineal}, {kin(p)}]
00:00:13 <lambdabot> n 1: one related by blood or origin; especially on sharing an
00:00:13 <lambdabot> ancestor with another [syn: {blood relation}, {blood
00:00:18 <lambdabot> 2: a word is cognate with another if both derive from the same
00:00:19 <lambdabot> word in an ancestral language [syn: {cognate}, {cognate
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00:08:17 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Learning_Haskell
00:08:52 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
00:08:56 <lambdabot> CYUL 012300Z 13011KT 15SM BKN064 BKN110 OVC240 15/11 A3021 RMK SC5AC2CI1 SLP231 \ ENVA 012250Z 29007KT 8000 -RADZ FEW016 BKN029 07/05 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 29007KT \ ESSB 012250Z AUTO 00000KT 9999
00:08:56 <lambdabot> NCD 05/05 Q1011 \ KOAK 012253Z 28016KT 10SM FEW012 21/11 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP180 T02110111
00:15:22 <izalove> i just came to the conclusion that watching anime in 1080p is better than watching it in crappy quality
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00:52:05 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: minority:majoity::singularity:plurality
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01:36:22 <zzo38> I had idea about a new selection for use with X called MEDIA_PLAYER and it is intended that a program that plays music or something else might own it (the user should be allowed to change whether or not they do, though; in case they are running more than one). Many (but not all) of the standard selection targets of ICCCM can be used with it, although additional targets can be defined to tell it to play, pause, rewind, next track, eject, etc.
01:42:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't understand what you said. But that's probably fine.
01:42:27 <wob_jonas> It's late in the night, I wouldn't understand it even if it made sense.
01:42:34 <fungot> wob_jonas: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions all versions no all versions all versions
01:43:42 <HackEgo> 33) <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective \ 59) <oklofok> i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program \ 109) <fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand h
01:43:52 <HackEgo> 997) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
01:44:07 <shachaf> May you live in CIRCLED TIMES.
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01:53:25 <zzo38> WATCH and UNWATCH targets could also be implemented in case a program is being used which will notify using Twitter or other internet services what music the user is listening to, or if the status bar will display the currently playing music.
01:54:38 <zzo38> There are many other things that can be done with it too.
01:55:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know how to tell whether d^2x = 0?
01:56:21 <zzo38> shachaf: No (but I didn't think about it now)
01:56:47 <shachaf> When did you think about it?
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02:10:20 <zzo38> One way that was used to implement private properties in JavaScript is to make them local variables of the constructor function (and define the methods that use them in the constructor instead of the prototype), and that still can be used. But now there is also the new way which is by using WeakMap; in this way the property can even belong to a different module than who created the object. You can also create anonymous public properties of objects.
02:11:23 <zzo38> I am not sure how useful anonymous public properties are, but it is a possibility. Maybe you know about the uses of such?
02:21:26 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYOtZvwNCsc
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02:38:34 <zzo38> How often have you seen "throw" in JavaScript (or possibly, other programming languages too) used for something other than in case of errors?
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03:03:56 <\oren\> zzo38: I have seen it used as a multi-loop break
03:06:54 <zzo38> Yes, that is one thing; I have used it as a multi recursive function break (for searching in a tree structure). How common is it though?
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04:19:09 <hppavilion[1]> Question: Would it be incorrect to refer to the British liberal party as "Labor" in the US?
04:25:53 <ais523> what do you mean by "liberal" here?
04:25:54 <hppavilion[1]> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Mazda3-pi.jpg
04:26:22 <ais523> are you talking about the current opposition party Labour? the Liberal Democrats, who have Liberal in their name? parties generically on the left wing, and if so compared to which country?
04:26:45 <ais523> all our even remotely major parties are left wing compared to the US centre, except possibly UKIP
04:35:37 <hppavilion[1]> "This house has 2.5 baths (house has 5 rooms with a toilet and sink))"
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05:11:09 <shachaf> Cale: What would you say the individual entries in a matrix represent?
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06:05:37 <shachaf> A matrix representing a linear transformation : R^n -> R^m
06:11:10 <Cale> shachaf: Okay, so first of all, the columns of the matrix tell you where each of the basis vectors get sent
06:11:34 <Cale> (the basis vectors of the domain of course)
06:11:42 <Cale> and each column tells you the coefficients with respect to the basis of the codomain
06:11:59 <shachaf> What I would have said was that, for T : U -> V, you choose a basis for U and V. Then you look at Tu for each u in u, and decompose it in terms of V.
06:12:14 <shachaf> (A linear combination of vectors in V.)
06:12:29 <Cale> for each u in the basis for U
06:12:54 <Cale> and each such decomposition gives a column
06:12:58 <shachaf> And since every vector in U is a linear combination of the vectors in the basis for U, that tells you how T transforms every vector.
06:13:44 <shachaf> So an individual entry is one V-basis-projection of one U-basis-vector under T.
06:14:26 <shachaf> Anyway the other day someone was saying that the individual entries actually represent linear maps : F -> F, not elements of F.
06:14:50 <Cale> heh, well, it's possible to look at it like that
06:15:00 <shachaf> If you have T : U -> V where U and V are finite-dimensional vector spaces over F, then you have U = F+F+...+F, V = FxFx...xF
06:15:44 <shachaf> And since Hom(A+B, CxD) is in natural isomorphism with Hom(A, C)xHom(A, D)xHom(B, C)xHom(B, D), those are the individual entries in the matrix.
06:15:48 <Cale> Yeah, you can look at it as a block matrix made up of 1x1 blocks :P
06:16:04 <shachaf> Right, so I should understand block matrices better probably.
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06:17:19 <shachaf> For example maybe you'd expect det([A B][C D]) to be det(A)det(D) - det(B)det(C), but that sort of thing doesn't work.
06:17:28 <zzo38> One day I invented "matrix accounting"
06:19:23 <shachaf> Cale: Anyway, is it a choice of bases for U and V, or for U* and V?
06:19:56 <shachaf> Given that T is contravariant in U.
06:20:04 <zzo38> Which is quite a different use of matrix mathematics although involving much of the same mathematics involved including such things as orthogonal vectors and homogeneous coordinates and so on.
06:20:18 <shachaf> You can presumably say that T behaves the same as U* ⊗ V?
06:20:33 <shachaf> zzo38: I thought it was just a typical use.
06:21:47 <Cale> shachaf: Yeah, it's really V ⊗ U*
06:22:13 <shachaf> But maybe it doesn't matter whether you choose a basis for U or U*, since if you have a basis you can go back and forth?
06:22:15 <Cale> (if you put the U* on that side, it'll make things nice when you write the formula for application)
06:22:25 <Cale> yeah, in finite dimensions
06:23:02 <zzo38> shachaf: The mathematics are same but it is a different use than geometry or physics; it is now for accounting (I invented it sort of by accident while trying to invent something else, because I had nothing else to do in school).
06:28:23 <zzo38> I don't know what is "formula for application" either
06:34:03 <Cale> shachaf: Well, when you write the linear transformation as a sum of pure tensor products
06:38:16 <Cale> If {b_1,...,b_n} is a basis of U and {f_1,...,f_n} is the corresponding basis for U*, and {c_1,...,c_m} is a basis for V, then you might write an arbitrary linear transformation T as sum over i, j of a_ij c_i ⊗ f_j
06:42:21 <Cale> and then (sum over i,j of a_ij c_i ⊗ f_j)*(sum over k of u_k b_k) = sum over i,j,k of a_ij c_i u_k f_j(b_k), and f_j(b_k) is 0 whenever j /= k, so we get sum over i,j of a_ij u_j c_i
06:42:40 <Cale> anyway, it's just nice somehow that the linear functional bumps up against the vector it's getting applied to :)
06:45:06 <shachaf> I guess that sometimes people write some of those subscripts as superscripts?
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09:07:07 <zzo38> I almost finished writing the documentation for my JavaScript serializer program and for its file format, and I will post it tomorrow. (The code is finish but need tested)
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09:36:02 <int-e> Why do people get excited over having a bright future ahead of them? For most of them that happens EVERY SINGLE NIGHT!
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09:50:42 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> I guess that sometimes people write some of those subscripts as superscripts? <-- look up einstein notation hth
09:51:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 21s ago: <shachaf> I guess that sometimes people write some of those subscripts as superscripts? <-- look up einstein notation hth
09:51:57 <oerjan> i'm sorry but it was invented by einstein so it is clearly brilliant hth
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09:55:18 <oerjan> a little multiplication now, and we can no longer deduce its value
09:57:26 <int-e> I don't know what its initial value was, I'm assuming 42.
09:58:32 <int-e> (What is the chance that a person wondering about a counter's initial value is a programmer?)
09:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Whom_the_Bell_Tolls_(disambiguation) links to songs by both the Bee Gees AND Metallica
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10:08:30 <int-e> Sweet imaginary numbers!
10:21:06 <oerjan> . o O ( is hppavilion[1] an imaginary person )
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10:26:27 <shachaf> Hmm, I didn't reset it properly.
10:26:44 -!- shachaf has set topic: The cargo cultivating channel | This counter has never been incremented, decremented, or reset | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
10:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, reset is accounted for after the variables are cleared
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10:31:00 <int-e> . o O ( This counter has been )
10:31:47 <oerjan> . o O ( This counter is pining for the fjords )
10:33:02 <int-e> I hope you're not going to parrot that whole skit.
10:34:19 <oerjan> . o O ( Mike the Headless Counter )
10:36:31 <oerjan> . o O ( I guess this Norwegian blue it )
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11:07:16 <oerjan> @tell shachaf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_index_notation
11:12:19 <myname> why not kThis has a counter"
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15:46:24 <boily> `relcome wanderman
15:46:46 <zgrep> \oren\: Black on blue is difficult to read, and thus means it's a terrible choice for a heading. :P
15:46:59 <HackEgo> wanderman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:47:23 <wanderman> never heard of eso langauge before
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16:12:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Orthagonal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49846&oldid=22619 * Martin Ender * (+127) /* External resources */
16:32:55 <HackEgo> and//And is an Intercal operator.
16:34:50 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse b_jonas b_jonas
16:35:59 <oerjan> `slwd and//s/op/unary op/
16:36:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/and//And is an Intercal unary operator.
16:36:49 <HackEgo> Or is an Intercal operator.
16:37:01 <oerjan> `slwd or//s/op/unary op/
16:37:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/or//Or is an Intercal unary operator.
16:38:47 <oerjan> `learn Xor is just addition of nimbers.
16:38:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'xor': Xor is just addition of nimbers.
16:44:13 <HackEgo> Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more
16:45:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
16:45:44 <HackEgo> Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters '1' and '0'.
16:46:09 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse oerjan oerjan
16:46:23 <oerjan> ...why did i add that...
16:46:46 <HackEgo> <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <oerjan> learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters \'1\' and \'0\'. \ <oerjan> learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the charatcers \'1\' and \'0\'
16:46:48 <oerjan> wanderman: it tells who has edited it
16:47:05 <oerjan> huh i actually did add it.
16:47:20 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-03-08 <oerjan> learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters \'1\' and \'0\'. \ 2016-03-08 <oerjan> learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the charatcers \'1\' and \'0\'
16:51:01 <oerjan> and it sort of made sense at the time.
16:52:42 <HackEgo> cat: dowg: No such file or directory
16:52:52 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
16:53:08 <fungot> boily: please note that this will be created. note that this behaviour was not implemented have been likewise implemented in c-intercal, such as the output random pad with random bits ( 16 if the `try again' command ( correct as of the format created by the generated code, and also obey the extra grouping rules
16:53:17 <fungot> ybden: expansion libraries without having to install at all. if a onespot variable, it will identify both 16- and 32-bit values as long as at most one of those places).
16:53:22 <ybden> oh, it's different each time
16:53:33 <ybden> fungot: what is love?
16:53:34 <fungot> ybden: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions all versions all versions no all versions all versions all versions
16:53:44 <ybden> fungot: I'm scared
16:53:45 <fungot> ybden: after that statement finishes executing. ( if the stack while skipping some of its first statement; generally speaking, a clc-intercal program that weren't part of _this_ manual), making the rest of the stack, or may not be stored there. ( a onespot variable is overloaded to an expression in place of the characters `.:_', which is also computed `create' statement supercedes an older `create' statement references another
16:53:51 <boily> ybden: careful with fungot. he's sentient.
16:53:51 <fungot> boily: this manual is for the full details of how to use the `-t' option is used); for more details). `again' ( *note backtracking::) to create a directory created called `ick-0.29'; this is a separate next stack entry that isn't a particularly useful) intercal program, or decide that it is also possible ( from c-intercal version 0.29).
16:54:07 <ybden> According to the quotes
16:54:23 <fungot> ybden: one of the difference between the `next' than `compunex' is likely to be run from within the program ends; however, the only flow-control commands in the same way to cause the program measures how many spaces it needs: the expression for the same line only makes sense to a mingle.)
16:54:32 <fungot> ybden: to a onespot variable is used to tell `ick' in `ick.h'; if you want to be input in any case.
16:55:43 <oerjan> `learn Jesus was the name of a famous wisdom creator.
16:55:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'jesu': Jesus was the name of a famous wisdom creator.
16:59:09 <ybden> \oren\: I rather like your font, especially since I can now properly fully justify my text without it looking terrible
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17:14:52 <oerjan> durakni: i think it started with me saying something about Einstein hth
17:15:53 <durakni> relative in its relateable theory? :)
17:16:15 <oerjan> it didn't even mention relativity, actually
17:16:26 <oerjan> only his tensor notation.
17:16:36 <oerjan> which he _used_ for relativity, mind.
17:17:10 <durakni> well glad we got that out of the way
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17:21:23 <durakni> so what is cargo cultivating
17:21:32 <oerjan> boily: as the resident expert, please guess the language of Reece`'s quit message twh
17:22:04 <oerjan> cargo cultivates all sorts of things
17:23:18 <oerjan> i dunno, i didn't add it to the topic
17:23:52 <durakni> makes me think of spacex cargo shuttles
17:24:34 <boily> oerjan: something Norse?
17:26:38 <oerjan> boily: that is a reasonable first impression, but not really. (also, i don't know the answer.)
17:27:15 <boily> it's something? http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/dialect2.php?opt=dialect2
17:30:06 <boily> I think I like it. it's very Québécois in its word manglement approach :D
17:31:33 <Taneb> "I'll see thou after, ta-ra for now"?
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17:45:48 <ybden> alsithy after the tararfunar
17:45:59 <ybden> not sure what the first and last parts are
17:47:02 <boily> `le/rn tarafurnar/The event after which you'll be seen.
17:47:07 <ybden> arfunar is half an hour
17:48:23 <ybden> I'l see you after the (tar?) half an hour
17:49:15 <ybden> Taneb's seems more likely
17:49:22 <ybden> Didn't see that at first
17:50:27 * oerjan swats boily for not including the key -----###
17:50:50 <oerjan> `slwd tarafurnar//s/./Tarafurnar is t/
17:50:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/tarafurnar//Tarafurnar is the event after which you'll be seen.
17:51:45 <int-e> hmm, -----### could be a poison dart, though perhaps the needle is a bit long
17:52:08 <ybden> It could be a feather duster
17:52:32 <oerjan> my swatter is guaranteed free of poison hth
17:52:32 <HackEgo> 54) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
17:53:03 <oerjan> well there is no one else quite as swattable
17:53:59 <int-e> Fly, swatter, fly!
17:54:07 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
17:54:25 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
17:54:30 <HackEgo> wisdom/drone//Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
17:55:03 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -ri swat .
17:55:16 <HackEgo> ./userweps:boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppavilion[1] is a motherfucking walrus \ ./swatter:The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles. \ ./bdsmreclist:* oerjan swats quintopia -----###
17:55:45 <HackEgo> * oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
17:56:12 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -ri dart .
18:04:25 <zzo38> I dreamt about some strange poker variant with many extra cards and extra hands, as well as ways for some players to determine where some of the cards are in the remaining deck; some extra patterns included "Common Tile" (all cards in the grid (except the message area) must be tiles, and all must be the same tile), "Leech Three" (in video poker it even depended on the cursor position), "Leech Q" (a pattern I could not understand), and others.
18:05:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bdsmreclist: not found
18:05:38 <ybden> `find -name bdsmreclist
18:05:39 <HackEgo> find: unknown predicate `-name bdsmreclist'
18:05:43 <ybden> `find . -name bdsmreclist
18:05:44 <HackEgo> find: `. -name bdsmreclist': No such file or directory
18:05:50 <ybden> ``find . -name bdsmreclist
18:05:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `find: not found
18:06:15 <ybden> Does the bdsmreclist actually exist?
18:06:31 <zzo38> durakni: It is what I remember.
18:08:56 <HackEgo> <shachaf> ` mv bdsmreclist junk/ \ <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <Phantom_Hoover> echo "<oerjan> YOU are out of order." >> bdsmreclist \ <oerjan> mv bdsmreclist wisdom \ <Phantom_Hoover> mv bdsmreclist. bdsmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> rm bdsmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> echo "* oerjan swats quintopia -----###" >> bdsmreclist
18:09:59 <HackEgo> <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ <ais523> ls wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <oerjan> mv bdsmreclist wisdom
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18:10:34 <HackEgo> <Phantom_Hoover> mv bdsmreclist. bdsmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> cat bdsmreclist bsdmreclist > bdsmreclist.
18:12:35 <oerjan> ok, i have no idea why it has that second line.
18:13:36 <oerjan> `unidecode bdsmreclist
18:13:37 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U
18:13:58 <HackEgo> [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE]
18:14:13 <ais523> `` echo ' bdsmreclist ' | cat -v
18:14:39 <oerjan> `` hoag bdsmreclist . | cat -v
18:14:51 <HackEgo> <oerjan> slwd drone//s/./D/ \ <oerjan> slwd tarafurnar//s/./Tarafurnar is t/ \ <boily> le/rn tarafurnar/The event after which you\'ll be seen. \ <oerjan> ` mv wisdom/jesu{,s} \ <oerjan> learn Jesus was the name of a famous wisdom creator. \ <oerjan> learn Xor is just addition of nimbers. \ <oerjan> slwd or//s/op/unary op/ \ <oerjan> slwd and//s/
18:15:07 <oerjan> `` hoag bdsmreclist. | cat -v
18:15:13 <HackEgo> <Phantom_Hoover> mv bdsmreclist. bdsmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> cat bdsmreclist bsdmreclist > bdsmreclist.
18:15:56 <oerjan> `url wisdom/bdsmreclist
18:15:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/bdsmreclist
18:20:52 <HackEgo> <Phantom_Hoover> rm bsdmreclist \ <Phantom_Hoover> echo "<oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits" > bsdmreclist
18:21:14 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \
18:22:34 <HackEgo> if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ else: \ print ("http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fsh
18:22:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/url
18:24:07 <HackEgo> cat: bin/hurl: No such file or directory
18:25:01 <oerjan> `` cp bin/{,h}url; sed -i '11s/file/log/' bin/hurl
18:25:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/bin/url
18:27:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/bin
18:28:05 <oerjan> those file logs are really not good at noting reversals
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19:58:43 <zzo38> Now you can see my JavaScript object serialization program https://www.npmjs.com/package/object-serializer http://sprunge.us/AIYK
19:59:53 <zzo38> Please tell me if there is any one unclear or incorrect or suggestion changed or whatever else.
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21:15:35 <lifthrasiir> seems that your design is very comparable to CBOR with no seemingly visible benefits
21:17:26 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
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21:18:15 <lifthrasiir> hmm at the second reading I can see some differences around, string back references (which might or might not be a benefit) and an ability to serialize arbitrary prototypes (an advantage, but not as a general serialization format)
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21:18:54 <lifthrasiir> and also an ability to serialize recursive objects (this one can be huge)
21:19:36 <lifthrasiir> I prefer the serialization to be fully non-recursive, but someone may actually want recursion
21:20:38 <zzo38> Note that string backreferences are only for keys in my system, although that is where I expect them to be most useful (since many objects may have properties with the same name).
21:24:41 <zzo38> Anyways, my design is specifically for JavaScript.
21:27:12 <zzo38> CBOR is good, but it has a different use than mine; these two programs are to be used for different kind of purposes.
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21:30:03 <fungot> wob_jonas: e888 i have no file and i must scream compilers too, and therefore broken the limit but wasn't designed to work with this character set, all of which are treated equivalently: lowercase letters, punctuation marks otherwise unused in intercal terms, imagine what would happen if the `-a' option ( *note -t::) to ( or `command' if that command and a 0, and can be used.
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21:36:51 <moonythedwarf_> <otherbot> Witchcraft means "hairy cat" in New York on ice cream in a vacuum cleaner that mass produced by the world
21:37:47 <Taneb> That sounds worryingly Markovian
21:39:08 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf: be careful with arithmetic
21:42:34 <Taneb> Markov chains are pretty much the simplest thing that does this
21:42:52 <moonythedwarf_> doesnt fungot use something similar to a markov chain?
21:42:52 <fungot> moonythedwarf_: e533 you want the files `ick'. it can run the befunge program to `come from':
21:44:58 <Taneb> moonythedwarf_, fungot uses a markov chain, yes
21:44:58 <fungot> Taneb: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions all versions all versions
21:45:19 <Taneb> `quote anmaster no
21:45:26 <moonythedwarf_> is there anything that could make a more readable sentence?
21:45:30 <HackEgo> 559) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
21:55:03 <Taneb> moonythedwarf_, a larger window, but that needs a larger corpus
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22:02:58 <Taneb> I really couldn't tell you
22:03:01 <Taneb> Depends on the data
22:03:47 <Taneb> You could try it and see how it goes
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22:18:23 <fungot> ybden: e778 unexplaned compiler bug, or at run time. only `abstain' and `.2/.1' together cause `.1' to specify other information to the error that looks like a line label, any `come from's need not count towards the total command count.)
22:19:10 <ybden> Does saying something to fungot change its seed, or is it just random?
22:19:10 <fungot> ybden: do create .5 switch .1 with .2
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22:39:53 <hppavilion[1]> What's the standard name in fairy chess for the piece that has the orthagonal movement of a rook, but none of the special rules (namely, castling)
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22:44:18 <zzo38> I think they usually just mention castling or not separately.
22:44:20 <izalove> how is fairy chess different from chess?
22:45:34 <ybden> It involves fairies
22:47:03 <ybden> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_chess
22:47:22 <ybden> I didn't know of this term before
22:47:29 <ybden> I'm assuming that suicide chess is a form of fairy chess
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22:48:49 <zzo38_> It is like how fairy card is different from card. (I suppose this answer does not help much)
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22:48:53 <ybden> suicide chess is for traditional pieces + board with nontraditional rules
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22:49:12 <ybden> fairy chess involves nontraditional pieces
22:49:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct
22:49:23 <ybden> and nontraditional rules
22:49:31 <hppavilion[1]> In Avengers, Nick Fury bets Captain America $10 some parts of the modern world will surprise him
22:50:11 <izalove> that $10 was a much larger amount of money in captain america's time?
22:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> I checked, and $10 adjusted for inflation from 1945 to 2012 is $126.78
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23:02:10 <zzo38> Example of some macro in my proposed kind of JavaScripts macro system: \{ define("_ord %L",x=>AST.value(x.charCodeAt())); } another macro like "#define ABC(x) ((x)+(x))" in C can be defined either as \{ define("ABC(%E)",x=>(|\(x)+\(x)|)); \} or as \{ define("ABC(%E)",x=>AST.plus(x,x)); } with the same meaning in each case. Do you like this? What other comment/question/complaints you might have?
23:03:21 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> How did it JUST hit me that the old German guy in Avengers who stands up to Loki
23:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> Was an old German guy who probably REMEMBERS the last time this happened
23:06:27 <izalove> that was exactly the point
23:07:04 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, Cap outright references Hitler ("Last time I was in Germany, and I saw a man standing above everybody else, we wound up disagreeing"
23:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yeah, which is why it's weird that I just noticed it
23:07:38 <hppavilion[1]> I guess I just didn't connect that the German guy was old and might've been around in the 40s
23:16:44 <zzo38> How do I tell Firefox to finish loading the text before it loads any pictures?
23:18:11 <ais523> ybden: technically speaking, suicide chess doesn't have a king, but rather a Mann
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23:18:38 <ais523> so it's fairy chess in that sense
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23:19:04 <ais523> I wonder what suicide chess would be like if it had regular check and checkmate rules
23:19:06 <ybden> ais523: Where's that documented?
23:19:17 <ais523> ybden: I learned the rules from someone in person
23:19:22 <ais523> but I think they're pretty universal
23:19:29 <ais523> the point is that the king in suicide chess doesn't have any royal powers
23:19:33 <ybden> the only mentions of mann I can see relating to suicide chess is the author of a unix program
23:19:34 <zzo38> I think I have seen once somewhere that it is a variant that you can also lose by checkmate
23:19:38 <ais523> and thus is actually a different piece
23:19:52 <ais523> ybden: IIRC mann is the name for a king without royal powers
23:20:08 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it is.
23:20:41 <ais523> I wonder what ches would be like if you replaced all the pawns with manns
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23:22:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you could hide all the pictures with css rules, then load another css rule later that overrides it and reveals the pictures
23:23:31 <zzo38> Will hiding them prevent them from loading? I still want the placeholders to load if the width/height are specified, though.
23:23:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: I think zzo38 cares about load order not render order
23:23:44 <ais523> my guess is that you have to turn off http pipelining or the like
23:23:53 <ais523> in order to force the original page to load before any of its dependencies
23:23:55 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is correct. I want to affect the load order not rendering.
23:23:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think you can hide images with css in such a way that the browser doesn't even load them usually
23:24:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: maybe you could make the server not serve the images until the text is loaded?
23:25:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you could even make the css rules replace elements with images, so the image urls aren't known before
23:25:07 <zzo38> That won't help; for one thing it is not my server
23:25:09 <wob_jonas> then surely the browser can't load that
23:25:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: I also think zzo38 is the client here, not the server
23:25:18 <ais523> and really, this should be a client setting
23:25:42 * ais523 notes that the names "client" and "server" also work for restaurants
23:25:43 <wob_jonas> maybe try to use a proxy or something?
23:26:21 <ais523> well http is a pull protocol
23:26:33 <ais523> a page loads because the client requests it, not because the server suggests it
23:26:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think you can make the browser not load images at all, possibly with a browser extension, then change the setting to load images later manually
23:29:30 <zzo38> I thought Netscape used to load picture late?
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23:31:29 <ais523> zzo38: it may be a case of the web pages being designed differently
23:31:39 <ais523> many pages nowadays load everything using JavaScript, including the text
23:31:54 <ais523> (rather there should be some sort of server-side DOM diffing)
23:33:13 <izalove> i have a set of key-value pairs and i want to store at most K of them. when i store the (k+1)th element i want to remove the oldest i inserted. when i get a value in this structure, i want that element to become the newest inserted
23:33:16 <izalove> what data structure does this?
23:34:53 <izalove> a hash table + a tree for the order?
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23:36:57 <ais523> izalove: can you overwrite a value while keeping the key the same? and if you do, does it go to the "back of the queue" or does it stay in its current position?
23:37:51 <izalove> can overwrite, and overwriting makes that element the most recent one
23:38:08 <izalove> which basically is equivalent to removing and reinserting
23:40:11 <izalove> hash table + priority queue?
23:40:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Paulmooreparks * New user account
23:40:19 <ais523> something that would work would be a linked queue (plus an integer holding the length) for identifying old keys to remove, plus a hash table that uses keys as keys, and pointers to the queue elements (so that you can remove them from the middle of the queue) as values
23:40:47 <ais523> I don't think you need a priority queue here, a regular queue would work? admittedly priority queues were my first idea but I can't see any interesting way to set the priority
23:42:49 <ais523> I think there's probably an easier solution but I can't think of one
23:43:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49847&oldid=49833 * Paulmooreparks * (+282)
23:43:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49848&oldid=43719 * Paulmooreparks * (+8) Updated the link to the official pbrain site.
23:44:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49849&oldid=49848 * Paulmooreparks * (+16) Updated parkscomputing.com link in Implementations section.
23:48:03 <HackEgo> functor//Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories.
23:52:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 45m 38s ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_index_notation
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23:57:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: agreed, some pages have tricks, whether on server side or in client javascript, to make sure the ads load before the page content.
23:59:32 <wob_jonas> izalove: use a priority queue heap rigged so that you keep track of the position of elements in it in a separate circular array that associates the insertion time with the position of the element the heap
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23:59:51 <wob_jonas> izalove: no wait, a circular array won't work
00:00:05 <wob_jonas> instead, probably you need a full separate ordered associative array
00:01:12 <wob_jonas> so a binary (or quaternary) heap sorted by the keys and an ordered tree sorted by the insertion dates, and when you move an element in the heap, track its position in the ordered tree
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00:02:08 <wob_jonas> actually you don't need a search tree
00:03:08 <wob_jonas> you only need a heap sorted by the keys and a queue (possible implemented as circular array or just as an array with free space on both sides that is sometimes moved) and link the position of elements both ways
00:04:29 <wob_jonas> "i have a set of key-value pairs and i want to store at most K of them. when i store the (k+1)th element i want to remove the oldest i inserted. when i get a value in this structure, i want that element to become the newest inserted "
00:04:52 <wob_jonas> what does the key even do? what is it a key of?
00:05:00 <wob_jonas> don't you just have ordinary pairs?
00:05:20 -!- moonythedwarf has joined.
00:05:41 <izalove> but i want to find an element by its key
00:06:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: needs to be a linked queue so that you can delete from the middle, while preserving the order of other elements, in less than O(n)
00:06:47 <ais523> assuming we're going for asymptotic performance here
00:07:08 <MDude> http://www.bitsofpancake.com/programming/markov-chain-text-generator/
00:07:42 <wob_jonas> in that case, have a separate associative array that is keyed by the keys and stores the position of that element in the queue. if the queue is array-based, then store a biased index that never changes, and store the bias separately; if you use a linked list based queue (less practical), then make the position (stored in the associative array) a po
00:07:43 <wob_jonas> inter to the element in the queue.
00:07:43 <MDude> Time to shove a bunch of logs into a javascript maarkup chain someone else wrote.
00:07:55 <MDude> Even though we fungot is already here for that.
00:07:55 <fungot> MDude: all operations on intercal source code), prepending a byte with 172 to the one implemented in c-intercal, and so on) with the best results. ( the previous character minus the previous sentence also explained what operands these operators have to rename the installation directory: mkdir build cd build ../configure to build in a linked c program ( for instance
00:08:04 <wob_jonas> you want to be able to delete an element from the middle?
00:08:29 <wob_jonas> yes, then you need at least a linked list queue
00:08:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: to replace the element back at the end of the list
00:08:52 <wob_jonas> you could make the links internal to the tree
00:09:25 <wob_jonas> just have an associative array keyed on the keys, and as the value, you store the values and the key of the next newest element
00:09:32 <wob_jonas> and store the key of the oldest element somewhere
00:10:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, that's clever, but I think you need to doubly link
00:10:45 <ais523> otherwise you can't update the link from the element immediately older than the one you delete
00:11:14 <ais523> also you need to store the total number of elements so that you know whether you need to delete the oldest at all
00:11:18 <ais523> but that's easy enough
00:12:05 <wob_jonas> there's also an alternate solution too (the one you get if SQL databases are your only hammer): use two associative arrays, the first one is an ordered one keyed by insertion times, the second one is an unordered one keyed by the keys but also stores the insertion time as extra value
00:12:43 <wob_jonas> that's assimptotically slower, but much easier to implement, because you never have to modify elements
00:13:10 <wob_jonas> and yes, then too you need to track the number of elements
00:13:20 <ais523> right, I was actually thinking "a relational database could solve this problem, I wonder what algorithm it'd use"
00:14:51 <wob_jonas> if you modify that a bit by using a heap (instead of an ordered assoc array on the insertion times) then you'll have to store the positions in the unordered assoc array and update those positions all the time
00:15:22 <wob_jonas> unless perhaps you use a linked heap, which is a bit ugly
00:16:11 <wob_jonas> the SQL-like solution with just two assoc arrays is the easiest to implement because you don't need custom data structures
00:18:16 <wob_jonas> using SQL as your only hammer is actually quite a useful crutch, even if it's not one I really like
00:19:39 <ais523> what's your favourite general-purpose hammer?
00:22:15 <wob_jonas> I think when making data structures, I try to use arrays and array indexes and similar over anything associative whenever I can get away with it (without too much trouble), at least if I'm programming in C++. I use associative arrays in perl, unless I need to optimize.
00:22:42 <wob_jonas> I do sort of like the SQL clutch in a way, but don't stick to it all the time.
00:23:31 <wob_jonas> I do like the part of the SQL clutch where I try to avoid deeply nested data structures, instead using shallow structures (whether array-like or associative) and pointing into them with indexes or keys
00:23:57 <wob_jonas> But I don't like the part of the SQL clutch where everything has to be associative so you can insert or delete arbitrarily.
00:24:39 <wob_jonas> The former part, avoiding deeply nested structures, applies even when I'm programming in perl.
00:25:32 <ais523> well, on the occasions I've used deeply nested structures
00:25:41 <ais523> it normally turned out in retrospect to be a mistake
00:25:51 <ais523> also, if I find myself maintaining too many indexes (indices?) manually
00:25:59 <ais523> I should probably be using a database instead
00:26:11 <wob_jonas> I don't usually have to maintain them. Just set them once.
00:28:45 <wob_jonas> Also, I don't like hash tables. If I do need an associative array (rather than get away with an array), and I'm not writing perl, I prefer to use a search tree. I do acknowledge that sometimes hash tables are faster, but that optimization is rarely relevant for whatever I'm writing,
00:28:49 <wob_jonas> because the associative array isn't usually in the fast path. The fast inner loops can generally be written so they use only arrays.
00:29:18 <wob_jonas> In perl, I do use the builtin hash tables though.
00:30:48 <ais523> I used a trie when I needed to optimize an associative lookup in NH4
00:30:56 <ais523> but that was just because they're easier to write than hash tables are
00:31:05 <wob_jonas> The reason why you rarely need associative arrays is this: most of the time you actually just write everything in them first, then when they're finished, you look up stuff in them or iterate on them. If that's the case, then an array you sort once and then binary search in is better.
00:31:51 <wob_jonas> At least, this is the case in the programs I write. If you're like writing a kernel, then you will totally need lots of hash tables and search trees.
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00:32:39 <wob_jonas> And sometimes you do need custom structures, you can't do everything the SQL way, but that's pretty rare.
00:33:21 <wob_jonas> (Well, it sort of depends on how many non-custom structures you know already.)
00:37:47 <wob_jonas> And obviously all this stuff depends a lot on your task and parameters, so use common sense and do whatever is best for the particular task rather than just one hammer.
00:41:17 <hppavilion[1]> New operation (or, well, notation for an existing operation): reverse subtract
00:41:29 <oerjan> <ybden> Does saying something to fungot change its seed, or is it just random? <-- it's random. in particular fungot has no way to convert a word into the right index pointer, only the reverse.
00:41:29 <fungot> oerjan: 2. compile the externally-called files.) here's an idiom from the stack while skipping some of this is another compile-time error.
00:42:15 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, a rsub b is the same as b sub a. No new uses, but can make some stuff look better.
00:42:18 <oerjan> i'm not sure if the file format even allows it.
00:43:03 <oerjan> > 2 `subtract` 4 -- haskell is way ahead of you
00:43:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: since you mention aimake, have you worked on that (or ayacc) again?
00:43:50 <wob_jonas> on the aimake rewrite or something
00:43:58 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
00:44:07 <ais523> I did a bit of work on ayacc I think, not sure though
00:44:20 <ais523> there are some fonts in which - isn't left-to-right symmetrical
00:44:22 <wob_jonas> have you released ayacc under some free software license yet?
00:44:35 <wob_jonas> or had it escape under such a license at least
00:45:03 <ais523> I was planning to though
00:45:07 <ais523> let me stick a GPLv3 notice on there
00:45:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but that's usually because it has serifs (so it's a bit wavy) or is a double line above one another with the two slightly offset horizontally, and in either case it would look ugly if mirrored
00:46:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: I know you were planning, you just didn't do it because you weren't working on aimake at all
00:46:52 <ais523> ugh, what's the start of the copyright range on this thing?
00:47:20 <wob_jonas> I think the #esoteric logs even has a statement somewhere that serves as releasing under a license.
00:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> (a reverse minus sign is possible because a normal minus sign is changed- not just -, but more like a vertically-flipped ¬)
00:48:12 <ais523> also wow the repo was out of date
00:48:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: OK, updated, and properly licensed now
00:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> There's also an operation related to ± called "minus-or-reverse-minus", which is literally just a[morm]b = a-b|b-a
00:48:59 <hppavilion[1]> (not sure how they look though; need to figure that out
00:49:54 <ais523> let me go and find a better URL for it :-P
00:50:52 <wob_jonas> Are you planning to add a stackless C backend by the way?
00:51:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc
00:51:32 <ais523> also the current C backend uses the call stack as the only stack
00:51:32 <wob_jonas> That is, a C backend that doesn't use recursion so it can return after each token read
00:51:51 <ais523> I don't currently have any plans to write a push parser
00:52:44 <ais523> shouldn't be, I have +rx perms on all the directories and +r on all the files
00:52:48 <ais523> did you try to access it in a web browser? :-P
00:53:10 <wob_jonas> actually what I'd like isn't really a push parser, but rather a way to reset the parser to older savestates (unpushing tokens). one way to do that would be to make it a push parser AND use immutable data structures only, but it could be done in other ways.
00:54:06 <ais523> savestating the parser isn't something that's very compatible with aimake's architecture
00:54:11 <ais523> you'd probably be better off using bison for something like that
00:54:12 <wob_jonas> with direct file access the access control error would be error 13 rather than error 403
00:54:25 <ais523> well darcs still uses http
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00:54:33 <ais523> just it accesses different files than the browser does
00:54:49 <wob_jonas> I think it is compatible in the sense that I'd only need a new backend template for it, not change anything in the actual parser generator code.
00:55:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: the main thing that ayacc needs and doesn't have is type safety
00:55:23 <ais523> atm it just uses the union for everything, like bison does
00:55:23 <wob_jonas> Which is good, because I have more chance to be able to do it, I don't have to understand the theory of the generator, and get to reuse (most of) the optimizations you've implemented.
00:55:29 <ais523> but it has enough information to use exact types
00:55:48 <ais523> I think you could write a separate backend, yes
00:55:54 <wob_jonas> does it already have _some_ type safety, as in, it derives the types of some values, but not all?
00:55:58 <ais523> you'd have to implement the "function call" operations via maintaining a stack manually
00:56:12 <ais523> parts of the code know what the type of certain values are, but the type information isn't propagated
00:57:21 <wob_jonas> Can the compiler that compiles the emitted code do that if it analyzes all the functions together? Probably not reliably.
00:57:45 <wob_jonas> The switch statements on state variables would confuse the compiler too much to follow what really happens.
00:57:49 <ais523> sometimes the type of one return value of a function depends on the value of another
00:57:55 <ais523> you'd probably keep using the union in that ase
00:58:06 <ais523> rather than having multiple return values just so that they can have different types
00:58:21 <ais523> like, ayacc often creates a function that, say, can parse one of two things
00:58:24 <ais523> then it tells the caller which it parsed
00:58:36 <ais523> and there's no reason why the semantic values of those two things needs to have the same type
00:58:52 <ais523> (in C it uses return-by-reference if a function needs multiple return values)
00:59:16 <wob_jonas> so then you return a distinguished union?
01:00:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: are you running the literal command "darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc"?
01:00:22 <wob_jonas> I thought it was a landing page with information
01:00:40 <ais523> and actually, that's a good point, it probably should be a landing page
01:00:43 <ais523> in which case that URL isn't final
01:00:59 <ais523> maybe I should move it to media/
01:01:02 <zzo38> Can you check for I/O and SDL events together with SDL 1.x?
01:01:23 <ais523> nethack4.org needs a more organized filesystem
01:01:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: and you should have a list of all projects at /projects or at /
01:01:27 <ais523> zzo38: I/O is converted into SDL events by SDL, so you just do a single check for SDL events
01:01:33 <ais523> that is, if you request the conversion
01:01:57 <wob_jonas> let me install darcs, I think I don't have it on this machine yet
01:02:08 <zzo38> How can you do that on an arbitrary file descriptor?
01:02:34 <ais523> zzo38: ugh, I ran into this problem with SDL 2 myself, and I think SDL 1 is the same
01:02:45 <ais523> the only method is to create a separate thread to monitor the file descriptor
01:02:56 <ais523> but then you can't communicate to the main thread
01:03:10 <zzo38> Can you add events to one thread from another thread or not?
01:03:11 <ais523> posting an SDL event doesn't work because it can lead to deadlocks, the SDL messaging functions aren't thread-safe
01:03:20 <ais523> so no, as far as I know
01:03:21 <zzo38> O it isn't thread-safe
01:03:28 <ais523> in NH4 I basically had to poll :-(
01:03:34 <ais523> there's an SDL extension called something like SDL_net
01:03:36 <ais523> that might be able to do it
01:03:43 <wob_jonas> they repeated that mistake from wx?
01:03:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: and SFML makes exactly the same mistake!
01:04:32 <zzo38> I know that Xlib does not have this problem; you can check for events and other file descriptors together, since the X events are a file descriptor!
01:04:49 <ais523> wob_jonas: main competitor to SDL
01:04:52 <ais523> I was looking at it for libuncursed
01:04:59 <ais523> but it seems to have the same set of deficiencies as SDL does
01:05:53 <ais523> oh wow, SDL_net doesn't have a way to select network packets against SDL events either
01:06:05 <ais523> why do so many people get this stuff wrong
01:06:24 <wob_jonas> Are you sure they don't just have a confusing documentation and some way to do this properly?
01:06:29 <ais523> also at least SFML doesn't have the primitives necessary to create your own thread-safe event injector either
01:06:35 <ais523> it'd need semaphores but it only has mutexes
01:07:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: nah, I think the sort of people who write this sort of library genuinely don't see polling as a problem
01:07:04 <ais523> it /can/ be done with polling, very easily
01:07:09 <ais523> it just eats up more CPU wakeups than it should
01:07:16 <wob_jonas> like, multiple apis, a simple main loop that doesn't let you listen to arbitrary file descriptors, but also a more complicated method that lets you embed it to any event loop
01:08:01 <ais523> OK, SDL does have semaphores
01:08:07 <ais523> so it is possible to make it work
01:08:27 <zzo38> How can you do that with the semaphores then?
01:08:40 <ais523> zzo38: what you have to do is have three threads: one handles SDL events and signals a semaphore when they arrive; one handles file descriptors events and signals the same semaphore when they arrive; and one processes events signalled by the other two threads
01:09:02 <ais523> basically, the two side threads need to "up" a semaphore that spends most of its time at 0 when they have something to report
01:09:13 <ais523> the merging thread "down"s the semaphore whenever it handles an event
01:09:34 <zzo38> Shouldn't the events needed in the main thread?
01:09:40 <ais523> it's probably a bit more complex because you need to wait for the event to be handled before you start working again, so you might need another semaphore to send in the other direction
01:09:58 <ais523> if there's data to communicate about the events, you'd do it using shared memory
01:10:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: IIRC QT and glib both require you to use its own main loop, but has events you can use it to wake it up from another thread properly
01:10:30 <ais523> libuncursed also uses that model
01:10:43 <ais523> actually implementing the remote wakeup in SDL was ridiculous, though; I used polling to do so in the end
01:10:54 <ais523> in libuncursed 2 I want to do it without polling
01:11:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: say you're watching a game
01:11:28 <ais523> you have to wait on both a keypress by the user (SDL event), and network activity (move made by the user you're watching)
01:11:44 <ais523> and libuncursed uses polling because SDL uses polling internally anyway
01:11:45 <wob_jonas> why doesn't libuncursed just use the model where you provide the main loop and it tells you when it wants to listen to input and to output
01:11:48 <ais523> and I felt that a bit more wouldn't hurt much
01:12:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: libuncursed 1 uses the event loop model
01:12:23 <ais523> libuncursed 2 uses a variant of the model in which you have a command that does all output /and/ all input
01:12:36 <ais523> which makes it a lot harder to make mistakes
01:12:58 <ais523> (obviously, you set up the output you want in-memory in advance, and the output+input is basically similar to a buffer-swap command that waits for input once it's done so)
01:13:33 <wob_jonas> (or just make it use libev only, but give the option to compile to a custom libev)
01:14:42 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm not even sure what you mean by "it tells you when it wants to listen to input and to output"
01:15:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, you might not even need that, because it always wants to listen to input, and probably wants to block on output rather than poll for it
01:15:53 <zzo38> I know that I designed Xwicketset it does have a function called XwicAddFileEvent for purpose explicitly to watch on multi file descriptors as well as X events.
01:16:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, I see, you were trying to support background /output/
01:16:46 <ais523> right, libuncursed assumes that it can safely output synchronously, and even if it needed to output asynchronously I think it'd want to hide the details of that from the program using libuncursed
01:17:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, since this goes over network which could have a high latency, and the user could press lots of keystrokes each of which change the screen content a lot, in which case you might even be able to drop some of the output
01:17:53 <wob_jonas> although that might not come up much in practice because of the large buffers involved
01:18:14 <ais523> you don't want to drop output because of ttyrecing and (for bots/interhack) pipelined farlook
01:18:43 <ais523> although uncursed should be handling ttyrecing itself really
01:18:46 <wob_jonas> it would be enough to make the calling program (eg. nethack) sometimes not try to flush the screen if more keystrokes have already arrived
01:19:12 <wob_jonas> oh, you don't want to drop anything because of ttyrec
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01:19:32 <ais523> I think async output would be doable without changing the API, though
01:19:38 <ais523> maybe libuncursed 2 should support it as an option
01:19:51 <ais523> the likely implementation would be to use a second thread to do the rendering
01:20:39 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh my god, FiveThirtyEight is named because the US electoral college has 538 electors
01:21:15 <wob_jonas> maybe you could have a ttyrec game option, so that when the user promises he's not ttyrec-ing (or teeing to multiple terminals) then the game can drop output if it's already read keystrokes (ans possibly uncurses can optimize the output a bit more dangerously so it only works on the exact terminal size)
01:22:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: text wrapping probably isn't consistent betwen terminals anyway
01:22:18 <ais523> you'd probably just want an option for async output behaviour
01:22:27 <ais523> and an option in libuncursed itself to produce ttyrecs
01:22:47 <ais523> (there's stub code for this in libuncursed 1; the ttyrec code itself hasn't been written but the place where it connects to the main code has been)
01:22:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: isn't it at least consistent in typical cases, which uncurses can detect?
01:23:25 <wob_jonas> oh well, it probably doesn't matter much practically
01:23:41 <wob_jonas> such an optimization wouldn't really help much of anything
01:24:09 <wob_jonas> it's just be premature optimization]
01:25:29 <ais523> I don't know, maybe it'll help when using one of the slower forms of output
01:25:31 <wob_jonas> looking at ayacc now (checked it out with darcs)
01:26:52 <wob_jonas> ok, so now ayacc is distributed under GPL3
01:28:04 <wob_jonas> (and the output it generates still doesn't get restricted copyright-wise)
01:28:33 <ais523> I might move the GPLv3 text to be literally inside the source code rather than a separate file
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02:58:37 <zzo38> I don't understand the V8 embedding guide so well. How do you do reference counting with it?
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04:12:47 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, apparently style guides (e.g. Strunk & White, Chicago) are sometimes called "style sheets"
04:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> I am not OK with this unless they're written in CSS (or SASS or SCSS or LESS)
04:25:58 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG660Jijr1A
04:27:08 <\oren\> great choon right there
04:36:26 <hppavilion[1]> If I make a language, should it be horribly inflective or not?
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04:54:19 <Jafet> I wonder if the MLA has anything to say about animations
04:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: Does MLA say how you cite an expansive scrawling on the walls of a cell written by a madman in his own blood over 15 years?
04:58:21 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: inflection would be cool
04:58:35 <\oren\> depending on what you inflect over
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05:16:18 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I might also inflect over whether hitler did it too...
05:16:41 <\oren\> I had a great idea. I'm playing as hungary. Let's see if I can conquer austria before hitler can enact anschluss!
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05:29:57 <hppavilion[1]> I messed with the colors for HexChat and now everything is weird
05:36:38 <\oren\> Austro-hungarian Empire, Reunited!
05:36:59 <\oren\> hah, austria was soooo weak
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05:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> There are prepositions and postpositions, but what about inpositions? circumpositions?
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06:07:10 <hppavilion[1]> PIE did use inflect! It does not have a great effect!
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06:23:16 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: you could probably cite the madman scrawling the same way as letters/correspondence
06:23:39 <quintopia> http://guides.lib.monash.edu/c.php?g=219786&p=1454260
06:27:52 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Manuscript (print) would actually be correct, as you're citing the original, not an edited & published version
06:28:14 <\oren\> And now I've taken the sudetenland too
06:28:54 <\oren\> hah! my hungarians are just cockblocking germany
06:30:27 <hppavilion[1]> [1] Hermit. (Untitled). Scrawled onto the walls of a cave in own blood. Found in cave outside of Tulsa, Oklahoma. Stand-alone.
06:31:51 <shachaf> oerjan: Remind me why Belkar can float?
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06:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> Philosophy is much better with formal logical notation...
06:47:00 <zzo38> Yes it does help. But, a few things are difficult to put into formal logical notation (such as things that are difficult in general).
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06:54:28 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yeah, but things that aren't difficult in general become perfectly unambiguous
06:56:37 <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html has a prediction for 1187-03-26
06:56:49 <shachaf> which what's-his-name is aware of
06:56:55 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, that I agree, that is why it helps.
06:57:03 <shachaf> what's the in-comic time, anyway?
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07:25:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What do you get with Euclidean geometry if you assume everything is polar coordinates (that is, you still draw a circle, but the points on the circle aren't thought of as cartesian)
07:29:44 <shachaf> Euclidean geometry was coördinate-free last I checked.
07:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> What I'm ACTUALLY saying is 'what happens if you take the thing that happens when you use a ruler and compass, but treat it as polar and take whatever it is in cartesian and use that as primitives"
07:35:03 <shachaf> oerjan: hm, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html
07:39:32 <shachaf> Euclidean geometry is neither cartesian nor polar
07:39:33 <izalove> evil is measured in kilonazis?
07:40:41 <Hoolootwo> I'm pretty sure more conventional units would be milinazis
07:42:06 <Hoolootwo> it's like the Lenat; one nazi, like a Lenat, is a big value that (hopefully) is never reached in practice
07:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Hoolootwo: You're both wrong; Nazis would be the base unit, but SI actually uses Mengeles
07:48:51 <hppavilion[1]> Jesus is currently clocking in at 70.8 megawarhols, though that's not adjusting for population...
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08:11:16 <hppavilion[1]> Take a statement of the Ship of Theseus and replace all of the words with synonyms, one by one
08:12:13 <\oren\> I still like "I AM POINTY DEATH INCARNATE"
08:34:24 <hppavilion[1]> ...I just heard the Ontological Argument for god...
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09:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> ...can we say "paper authorizes removal of rock" from now on? Please?
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09:42:24 <shachaf> Maybe you can say that to your Twitter account.
09:50:48 <izalove> yeah fuck you we don't want your bureaucracy
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10:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: But it's so much less stupid than "paper covers rock"
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11:45:58 <HackEgo> finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
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12:17:25 <hppavilion[1]> The pirated His Dark Materials I'm ræding appears to be OCRd
12:18:58 <hppavilion[1]> With )s where there should be js and all the æs are just aes
12:21:46 <boily> hppavellœn[1]. you couldn't get a printed copy?
12:24:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: And I need the UK editions, as the US editions are edited to remove objectionable content
12:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> Removed objectionable content is ALWAYS more objectionable than the original content
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14:42:00 * int-e slaps Tristan with 0.83 trouts and 0.17 blunt instruments
14:44:17 <int-e> (simple typing error: this channel is assigned F10; the messages was for a channel that I have assigned F11 to)
15:15:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49850&oldid=49832 * Moon * (-4)
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15:18:42 <wob_jonas> I'm typing from it now. I'm still not completely used to it.
15:18:56 <wob_jonas> It's a heavy and loud mechanical keyboard.
15:19:08 * moonythedwarf gives Bowserinator a cookie for helping a lazy programmmer implent Gravbox
15:19:31 <wob_jonas> (WD AULA blue springs keyboard for the record)
15:19:53 <wob_jonas> Very different feeling from all previous keyboards I've used.
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15:51:16 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> There are prepositions and postpositions, but what about inpositions? circumpositions? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposition_and_postposition#Classification_by_position inpositions sound suitably weird for a conlang.
15:52:40 <myname> i know people who did a language solely based on inposition on a pizza brrak for a role playing game race
15:55:58 <myname> how is m:tg anything like an rpg?
15:57:32 <wob_jonas> M:tG was invented as a quick game you could play in idle times of role playing
15:57:52 <int-e> myname: maybe they read "role" as "rule" :-P
16:13:24 <myname> if you want to implement Eq for your class, you just need to overwrite one
16:13:36 <myname> and the other will automatically fit due default definition
16:19:50 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
16:20:10 <oerjan> hm, i guess that's just the default derived one
16:20:28 <oerjan> myname: @src has some specific method sources too
16:20:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
16:20:40 <lambdabot> Source not found. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
16:21:00 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
16:21:25 <oerjan> stupid parenthesis and _order_ sensitivity
16:22:06 <oerjan> int-e: any chance of making parentheses irrelevant in @src lookups twh
16:22:30 <oerjan> this time, i tried all three wrong combinations first
16:24:37 <oerjan> in that case, it already is, but not for looking up instance methods
16:24:58 <int-e> I don't know what the lookup looks like
16:25:05 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
16:25:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. I feel much better now.
16:25:38 <int-e> probably just a blind lookup into a Data.Map, and then again with parentheses around everything
16:31:39 <oerjan> 37 fetch x m = M.lookup x m `mplus`
16:31:39 <oerjan> 38 M.lookup (P.concat [P.singleton '(', x, P.singleton ')']) m
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16:55:23 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just try something else.
16:55:39 <oerjan> @src second f = arr swap >>> first f >>> arr swap
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16:55:52 <oerjan> int-e: there are some bugs in the source file...
16:56:09 <oerjan> (the above is because second is missing its key line)
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17:06:22 <\oren\> man i got used to looking at the borders of eastern europe in HOI4 and now maps of europe as it is today look wrong
17:06:26 <\oren\> like, hungary doesn't border ukraine, what happended?
17:07:11 <\oren\> like what happened to the end of slovakia where id wraps arond hungary
17:09:22 <\oren\> and poland is entirely too far to the west now
17:10:01 <oerjan> \oren\: they lost a war hth
17:11:02 <\oren\> and poland no longer even has a border with latvia
17:11:32 <oerjan> \oren\: basically russia got to keep their spoils from the molotov-ribbentrop pact, while germany were forced to compensate them for poland
17:12:52 <\oren\> i see, and russia also took some of slovakia and romania as well
17:12:58 <wob_jonas> \oren\: what's HOI4? and why doesn't Hungary border Ukraine?
17:13:35 <\oren\> Hearts of Iron 4. it's a war game that starts in 1936
17:13:41 <fizzie> wob_jonas: It's that game, I see people talk... right.
17:13:51 <\oren\> so I'm now more used to seeing the old borders
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17:15:22 <\oren\> I played as hungary last night, and I took austria before hitler had a chance to do Anschluss and take it
17:16:15 <\oren\> the german AI doesn't seem to do very well in that situation
17:17:12 <lambdabot> (u, f) <*> (v, x) = (u `mappend` v, f x)
17:17:31 <\oren\> but now I saw a picture of europe in a news story and it looked completely wrong
17:19:05 <\oren\> why is poland so small!?!? why is germany shaped like a peanut?
17:19:46 <\oren\> and what the heck happened to yugoslavia?
17:22:49 <\oren\> i guess it fell apart as soon as they lost tito.
17:34:22 <int-e> oerjan: I knew something like that was going to happen
17:38:07 <oerjan> int-e: don't accept yet, i'm making an amendment for Source.hs
17:40:57 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I'm not used to 1936 maps, but I am used to 1900 maps, so I always find it strange that there are seven independent countries instead of Yugoslavia
17:42:17 <wob_jonas> Not that I'm not glad that the war ended, but the map looks so strange.
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17:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49851&oldid=49850 * Moon * (+2) fixed program.
17:47:33 * moonythedwarf gives Bowserinator a giant cookie for implementing Gravbox
17:47:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49852&oldid=49851 * Moon * (-2) Its now implented! :D
17:49:25 <moonythedwarf> Bowserinator: make a wiki account and put the SRC up somewhere. and then link to it.
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18:01:52 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: Remind me why Belkar can float? <-- http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html
18:06:54 <int-e> seems oerjan forgot to pack some strings
18:08:44 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6m 52s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: Remind me why Belkar can float? <-- http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html
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18:17:57 <oerjan> oh that went a lot faster
18:18:23 <int-e> ah, good, second travis build was faster
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18:47:08 <olsner> is there a 2 dimensional "regexp" language? got to thinking the other day about how you might make text-based GUIs with a kind of 2-dimensional sed
18:47:44 <myname> have a look at "picture languages"
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19:31:28 <HackEgo> 35) <ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. \ 997) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
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19:33:37 <shachaf> fizzie: May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES.
19:34:31 <shachaf> May you live in DIVISION TIMES.
19:34:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /: Is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /: cannot execute: Is a directory
19:35:00 <shachaf> fizzie: May you live in TIMES WITH LEFT HALF BLACK.
19:36:15 <fizzie> May you live in CUNEIFORM SIGN EZEN TIMES A PLUS LAL TIMES LAL.
19:38:34 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Working on my absurdly inflective language
19:38:40 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 47m 24s ago: <hppavilion[1]> There are prepositions and postpositions, but what about inpositions? circumpositions? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposition_and_postposition#
19:38:40 <lambdabot> Classification_by_position inpositions sound suitably weird for a conlang.
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19:39:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: For time, I currently have 5 tenses (including null tense) and 4 types of aspect (progression, perfection, evitability, and forcing)
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19:40:39 <int-e> what about suppositions... they are nasty because they don't appear anywhere in the text.
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19:41:19 <shachaf> int-e: Sometimes they appear in superscript.
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19:43:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: nah, that's called a dinner menu. you know the Larry Wall saying, the script is what you give to the actors, the program is what you give to the audience.
19:44:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: you missed a pun there, I think.
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19:44:40 <int-e> (hint, because maybe it's just too awful: supper is a meal)
19:44:44 <shachaf> 2A75 TWO CONSECUTIVE EQUALS SIGNS [⩵]
19:44:48 <shachaf> 2A76 THREE CONSECUTIVE EQUALS SIGNS [⩶]
19:45:16 <shachaf> APPROXIMATELY EQUAL OR EQUAL TO [⩰]
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19:46:32 <int-e> does the saying about exclamation marks also apply to equality signs?
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19:48:26 <int-e> Though apparently Pratchett's threshold was five: "Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind."
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20:43:17 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages? messages
20:44:04 <zgrep> @tell ais523 It's okay. Have a message.
20:44:06 <shachaf> Do you want a message and/or a hug?
20:44:13 <ais523> I'm OK with not having messages
20:44:24 <ais523> less OK with lambdabot's persistent inability to understand my question
20:45:12 <shachaf> Do you know how lambdabot command correction works?
20:45:39 <shachaf> Your string has to be either a prefix of a command or within edit distance 2 of a command.
20:46:07 <ais523> I figured it was using edit distance 2 after the first two requests
20:46:20 <ais523> just think that a deletion should count as less than a substitution, especially given how unlikely ? is as a typo for s
20:46:32 <ais523> we need some sort of edit distance that takes qwerty into account
20:46:44 <int-e> oh, the @messag? was ambiguous.
20:47:02 <lambdabot> uptime: 6d 11m 11s, longest uptime: 1m 12d 14h 14m 14s
20:47:11 <ais523> are there any esolangs which care about qwerty layout?
20:47:16 <ais523> as in, not just inspired by it
20:47:21 <ais523> but the key layout actually has a semantic effect?
20:47:31 <ais523> (e.g. BF with q w e r t y u i as the commands doesn't count)
20:48:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: would something that is controlled by ykulnjbh or qwedcxza or wdsa or esdx or jkli count?
20:48:41 <wob_jonas> like, if it was directions in esolang, not in a game
20:48:54 <int-e> IIUC, a 2d language that uses qweadzxc for nw,n,ne,w,e,sw,s,se movements would qualify?
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20:49:24 <int-e> being redundant, as usual.
20:49:41 <ais523> I'm not qure I'd allow wasd-alikes to count because it's just syntax
20:50:09 <ais523> I'm wondering if there's some way to make it semantically relevant
20:50:12 <wob_jonas> wait... you want something that's not just syntax/
20:50:14 <int-e> well, what else would it be... permuting letters is just a syntactic change after all
20:50:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't know
20:50:54 <ais523> something like "commands can only mention more than one variable if their names are adjacent on the keyboard"
20:51:12 <int-e> So any change of the keyboard layout is just a syntactic change, as far as I can make out. Unless you want an interpreter that actually queries what the current keyboard layout is and changes semantics based on that?
20:51:20 <int-e> (who needs portability?)
20:51:25 <wob_jonas> like brainfuck where you move between variables near each other?
20:52:13 <ais523> say you can only do commands like "g = h + y" (because those keys form a triangle so you can mention all three variables in the same statement)
20:52:22 <ais523> ideally we'd need a way to make the restriction actually matter though
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22:03:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:SPAM/1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49853&oldid=38765 * Zzo38 * (+697)
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22:13:11 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
22:13:27 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Roujo
22:13:40 <ais523> how does that differ from `culprits?
22:13:40 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2015-08-13 <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2013-08-29 <Roujo> echo Cats are cool, but should be illegal. > wisdom/cat
22:14:20 <shachaf> Wasn't there a version of dowg that showed older entries first?
22:14:30 <HackEgo> bin/ploki \ bin/udcli \ bin/emmental \ bin/luac \ bin/macro \ bin/multicode \ bin/jq \ bin/seens \ bin/¿ \ bin/searchlog \ bin/gs2.py \ bin/7za \ bin/lua \ bin/tclkit \ bin/shove \ bin/units
22:15:04 <shachaf> Hmm, I want to call it rowg. But that's ambiguous between dowg and howg
22:15:17 <HackEgo> hoag "wisdom/$1" \ doag "wisdom/$1"
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00:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Ada Lovelace was the (legitimate) offspring of Lord Byron
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00:29:45 <HackEgo> caps lock//CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES
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00:37:51 <boily> fungot: is CAO down?
00:37:52 <fungot> boily: a. i don't think i answer those, ihope. i yield to you.
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00:37:59 <fungot> boily: i just don't like how... weird... and doesn't make a difference yes? says who??? fnord ( car list)
00:38:13 <boily> fungot: well, I like that server. that's the closest one.
00:38:13 <fungot> boily: i dont think i have now spend more time typing than thinking, i'm doing work"? i'm impressed if you think about this in the mzscheme compiler manual
00:38:57 <boily> fungot: no, I think in French. messemble que depuis le temps c't'assez évident...
00:38:57 <fungot> boily: laml is neat, kipple, axo,...? yeah, i think.
00:39:14 <boily> fungot: no, a kipple is not French hth
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00:41:12 <boily> “It's not just you! http://crawl.akrasiac.org looks down from here.” thanks downforeveryoneorjustme.com!
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00:43:30 <boily> hppavellon[1]. no, it undergoes vowel-mutation. singular is checkan.
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00:43:38 <boily> hellørjan! do you mutate?
00:44:16 <boily> . o O ( there seems to be a pun in there, but where... )
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00:44:36 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( We need an enhanced plural schema for english with distinct rules for infinite cardinals )
00:44:55 <oerjan> it wasn't conscious, but _maybe_ you could say "constant" is the opposite of "mutating".
00:45:41 <hppavilion[1]> English also needs indefinite form- not singular or plural or dual; no grammatical number at all
00:46:24 <hppavilion[1]> So, like, if the schema is +ae, the indefinite of dog would be dogae, which means 1 (or should it be 0?) or more dog(s)
00:47:21 <oerjan> modified english is the brainfuck derivative of conlangs hth
00:51:20 <ais523> except it's less easy to implement
00:52:05 <ais523> that said, surprisingly many BF derivatives have non-nesting [] because the author couldn't figure out how to implement them
00:52:26 <ais523> (in at least one case, this is for a good reason as the derivative was created to prove another language TC; it was replaced by a conditional goto)
00:54:05 <boily> which language is the most surprisingly TC?
00:55:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh my god #esoteric is discussing esolangs... weird...)
00:55:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Even better, which language is the most surprisingly ¬TC
00:57:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Though, I wasn't going for a conlang modifying english; more for making people use it under pain of glaring so it's just part of english
01:03:18 <hppavilion[1]> I want to create a company for which the name violates English order of adjectives...
01:05:12 <shachaf> 10:08 <shachaf> @messes-loud
01:06:02 <oerjan> (i assume we're golfing)
01:06:26 <shachaf> That question made no sense.
01:06:37 <shachaf> It was obvious what you were golfing.
01:07:02 <shachaf> I don't know why I wrote it.
01:07:06 <shachaf> The point was I wasn't golfing.
01:07:26 <shachaf> 15:53:17 <shachaf> @messageese-loud
01:12:09 * boily needs his dose of crawl, fungot it!
01:15:40 <fungot> oerjan: four files: fnord, which might be very sensitive to medications).
01:16:10 <oerjan> fungot: has boily been overusing you
01:16:10 <fungot> oerjan: scheme48 has immutable objects in general. i'm spending a lot of work
01:17:09 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: user error (Unknown command: "messages-")
01:17:14 <fungot> boily: would you /please/ stop playing with me... i am not sure whether they're _required_ to have constant time....
01:17:23 <boily> BWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH :D
01:20:53 <tswett> Y'all know about MegaHAL. It's that one chatterbot you can download and play with, that was created in 1998.
01:21:29 <tswett> Is there a more modern chatterbot that you can also download and train and run locally?
01:22:00 <fungot> oerjan: someone drank all the milk again, have you got any nice stuff :) forthers would say that the branches are mutually exclusive sounds more restrictive than doing the 32-bit math in the first
01:22:26 <oerjan> fungot: i have coke zero
01:22:27 <fungot> oerjan: i'm sure you can try ideologies, but be extremely rigid on the ones where you press combinations of keys are mutually exclusive in style.
01:23:15 <boily> fungot: I make a mean Hong Kong style milk tea, if you want to stay awake for the next 12 hours.
01:23:15 <fungot> boily: it's so straight-forward i'm not even in that movie a dozen times. always the same. i think his solution is quite workable for individual use or in other words
01:24:49 <fungot> wob_jonas: or maybe ,trace fnord/ fnord/ images/ fnord
01:25:02 <oerjan> shachaf: btw i made `hurl hth
01:25:40 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \
01:26:04 <HackEgo> 2016-10-02 <oerjan> ` cp bin/{,h}url; sed -i \'11s/file/log/\' bin/hurl
01:26:07 <oerjan> it is the same as `url except for a single word
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01:26:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/hurl
01:26:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/bin/url
01:27:33 <shachaf> are you invalidating all my dog work
01:28:23 <boily> does a pooch have the Buddha-nature?
01:28:25 <oerjan> shachaf: not necessarily. sometimes the log for a file is a bit too long to browse on irc, is all.
01:28:49 <oerjan> also the web browser seems to leave out obvious edits :(
01:28:53 <shachaf> are you invalidating all my dog work and all my spam work
01:29:16 <oerjan> YES BECAUSE I'M EVIL *MWAHAHAHA*
01:29:28 <oerjan> (sometimes you can't win so better go for the carnage)
01:29:42 <shachaf> \texrb *\rainbow{MWAHAHAHA}*
01:29:47 <fungot> ybden: a very general answer; i'm looking for one that's simple to understand.
01:30:22 * ybden plays with fungot some more
01:30:22 <fungot> ybden: probably someone's done one already
01:30:29 <ybden> fungot: done one what?
01:30:29 <fungot> ybden: " reiserfs the file system to die for! and especially to evaluate in your head, everywhere you need to duplicate the lines then. sorry, once again we return to a non-extended one would wipe away the original text :)
01:30:44 <ybden> D: it was indeed a file system to die for, for some
01:31:02 <ybden> fungot: you say some worrying things
01:31:02 <fungot> ybden: oh, i'm just a coop stuck with the lamest parts of the pre-scheme source code for it
01:33:02 <boily> ybdellon. once you reach the fungothreshold, he won't answer to you. somebody else has to summon him between runs.
01:33:02 <fungot> boily: that was fast. almost at fnord packing up. hrmph.), sieni_. would you refer to is all part of the set!
01:33:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> Hmm, I want to call it rowg. But that's ambiguous between dowg and howg <-- drwg hth
01:34:01 <shachaf> oerjan: But that doesn't sound like "rogue".
01:39:38 <tswett> fungot: are you a MegaHAL?
01:39:39 <fungot> tswett: mmm sounds like it involves robotic breasts. college of engineering.
01:40:19 <izalove> this bot is getting better and better every day
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01:42:25 <fungot> wob_jonas: 1 gregorr: bf8 isn't harmfull
01:42:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Client Quit).
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01:43:21 <hppavilion[1]> Challenge: Produce a mathematical generalization of the 12 days of christmas
01:45:16 <boily> fungot: uhm... you want to have, robotic breasts?
01:45:16 <fungot> boily: then it rejects all functions that don't return, tco falls into place, though. do you plan to support paredit.el for xemacs as well?
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01:57:21 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
01:58:06 <adu> I'm starting to hate LDAP
02:03:38 <adu> I need to organize the configuration of Servers, Flavors, Users, and Groups.
02:03:55 <adu> oh you don't know what it is
02:03:58 <shachaf> low density audio platform hth
02:04:14 <adu> "Lightweight Directory Access Protocol"
02:06:17 <adu> shachaf: that's LADP
02:06:33 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you a windows person?
02:06:55 <shachaf> large distracted antwerp pooch
02:06:56 <adu> hppavilion[1]: ahh, then you might recognize "Active Directory"
02:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> How to troll brits with numbers: Follow these rules: (1) If '0' is 'oh', then 1 is 'el', 5 is 'es'; say 'single oh' every time there's a zero (along with 'double oh'); express everything as its prime factorization
02:09:35 <shachaf> long distance argumentative parrot
02:10:05 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with Active Directory?
02:10:07 <shachaf> That sounds like a good post for your Twitter account.
02:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I got blocked because I look like a bot, remember
02:10:26 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with the concept of a "User"
02:10:40 <tswett> Wouldn't it be great if C# supported generic generic parameters?
02:10:46 <adu> hppavilion[1]: LDAP is a "User" Database
02:10:48 <shachaf> And so you continue the same behavior in IRC?
02:11:23 <tswett> public abstract class Monad<M<>> { public abstract M<T> Join<T>(M<M<T>> input); ... }
02:11:52 <shachaf> You're ...ing return because you can't type it?
02:12:34 <tswett> public abstract M<T> Return<T>(T input);
02:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> Serious question: Is there an equivalent to the FLA for HCNs?
02:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. "all numbers can be expressed as a quotient of HCNs")
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02:14:22 * tswett looks up what that stuff is on Wikipedia.
02:14:23 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_composite_number
02:14:35 <tswett> By FLA, do you mean the Fundamental Theory of Arithmetic?
02:16:17 <oerjan> . o O ( /kickban hppavilion[1] Obvious bot )
02:17:20 <shachaf> Fundamental Law of Arithmetic, surely
02:17:47 <shachaf> The theorem is this: The positive naturals are a free commutative monoid generated by the primes under multiplication.
02:17:51 <tswett> Oops, my fallibility is showing.
02:18:24 <tswett> shachaf: damn it. I read as far as "the theorem is this" and decided to one-up you by giving *my* favorite statement of the theorem...
02:18:45 <zzo38> What is your statement, then?
02:19:03 <tswett> And then I realized that what you said *is* my favorite statement (more or less).
02:19:29 <tswett> Here's how I like to phrase it:
02:19:46 <tswett> "The commutative monoid of the positive integers under multiplication is a free commutative monoid."
02:20:48 <shachaf> Maybe I should have moved "under multiplication" nine words earlier.
02:22:21 <tswett> I left out "generated by the primes" because you can just define the primes as being the generators.
02:22:48 <shachaf> You mean you can figure it out.
02:23:01 <shachaf> But the point of the theorem is that it's what you get after you figure it out.
02:25:04 <hppavilion[1]> Another thing I thought of offhand today: orders of composite numbers
02:25:12 <tswett> I guess what I'm unintentionally suggesting is that you could first prove the FTA, and then use the FTA to define the prime numbers.
02:25:20 <hppavilion[1]> A first-order composite number is a prime number (...yeah, sorry)
02:25:40 <tswett> "The positive integers under multiplication are a free commutative monoid. Define the prime numbers as the generators of this monoid."
02:25:43 <shachaf> Certainly, if you generate a free monoid from a countably infinite set, what you get is isomorphic to the positive naturals under multiplication.
02:25:45 <hppavilion[1]> An nth-order composite number is an (n-1)th-order composite number times a first-order composite number
02:26:08 <shachaf> But if you already know the positive naturals, and you already know the primes, then telling you that those primes in particular generate the positive naturals is pretty good.
02:26:13 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so an nth-order composite number is a number with exactly n prime factors?
02:26:33 <hppavilion[1]> (this is equivalent to saying that the composite order of a number is the cardinality of the bag of its prime factors)
02:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, is there a prime factorial function? Or, more accurately, there is a prime factorial function, but does it have any use?
02:28:11 <tswett> I think that's called the primorial function.
02:28:37 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primorial
02:28:58 <tswett> "In general for a positive integer n {\displaystyle n} n, a primorial n # {\displaystyle n\#} {\displaystyle n\#} can also be defined, namely as the product of those primes ≤ n {\displaystyle n} n:"
02:29:03 <tswett> I apologize for the wonky copy-paste.
02:29:43 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: hey, I have a random question for you.
02:30:11 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: do you have any thoughts as to where you want to start your career?
02:30:20 <tswett> Like, software development, mathematics research, something else?
02:30:26 <shachaf> That question has a rather big assumption, doesn't it?
02:31:15 <tswett> shachaf: that hppavilion[1] wants to have a career?
02:31:24 <shachaf> I don't even know what a career is.
02:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> There's more potential for success in private sector dev, but I'm drawn to academics on... almost moral grounds
02:32:15 <shachaf> i,i not a career in the world
02:32:32 <shachaf> Your sense of morality has already been established to be very suspect.
02:32:43 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I kind of feel like I'm doomed to eventually go to grad school.
02:32:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iovoid * New user account
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02:33:44 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I think my industry experience is going to be really valuable if I ever want to do business-oriented research.
02:34:14 <tswett> It's easier to design a business-oriented programming language if you have experience doing business-oriented programming..
02:34:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Apparently there are two conflicting definitions of primorial- one is what I said above, the other is the product of the first n primes. I'm already developing strong opinions on it.)
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02:43:47 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I know. The primorial function should be a function PrimeCut -> N, where PrimeCut is the collection of all downward closed sets of prime numbers.
02:51:18 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, norway doesn't even have a legal minimum wage
02:53:07 <zzo38> I think it is OK a minimum wage should not be needed
02:53:19 <oerjan> shachaf: see, your minimum wage is only a half-assed compensation for the fact you don't have properly powerful labor unions hth
02:53:43 <shachaf> oerjan: the government is the most powerful labor union of all hth
02:55:07 <oerjan> it doesn't count as a labor union if the employers have more say than the laborers hth
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03:10:37 <shachaf> what if british banks have the most say
03:10:43 <shachaf> does it count as a libor union
03:11:19 <shachaf> oerjan: do you think the us minimum wage should be raised
03:12:03 <oerjan> my prejudices say yes.
03:12:15 <oerjan> my actual knowledge is insufficient hth
03:12:29 <ais523> I know that I decided to do some amateur economics that's probably terrible in the wake of Brexit
03:13:05 <ais523> and concluded that in response to Brexit, the UK minimum wage should probably be increased, with a reduction in corporation tax to compensate
03:13:18 <ais523> then I was surprised to see that many actual economists had come to the same conclusion
03:13:23 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think about the tipped employee minimum wage exception
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03:14:02 <ais523> shachaf: I think it's ridiculous, I don't like the idea of peoples' livelihoods depending on customs rather than actual rules
03:14:12 <shachaf> anyway it doesn't apply in california
03:14:23 <ais523> in the UK, tipping at restaurants is rare apart from very high-end ones
03:14:39 <ais523> like, if someone takes your order while you're seated, then later physically delivers your food
03:14:43 <alercah> it doesn't directly depend on custom though
03:14:43 <ais523> tipping would be usual
03:14:45 <shachaf> even where it does apply, the minimum wage is the lower bound, with the employer having to pay the difference if necessary
03:15:00 <alercah> that said, the US minimum wage is a joke
03:15:17 <shachaf> ais523: How did you come to that conclusion?
03:15:17 <izalove> would you star a repo called silver-giggle?
03:15:53 <izalove> i'm wondering how popular i'd be if i created repos with the names github suggested
03:16:15 <alercah> ais523: I'm headed to England for the weeked (... stupid, I know), is tipping like that only for high end restaurants, or just anywhere where there is sit-down service?
03:16:32 <alercah> (fwiw I have stopped tipping at restaurants that do not offer full sit-down service. I feel the need to draw the line)
03:16:52 <alercah> so many places have started asking for tips because it's just a configuration option on the credit card machine
03:17:09 <ais523> alercah: has to be fairly high-end
03:17:24 <ais523> also the usual tip is approximately 10% but it's common to round it so that the total price paid is a round number
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03:17:35 <ais523> so it might be 9% or 11% depending on the exact price of the meal
03:17:58 <shachaf> I think in the US the standard restaurant tip is ~20%.
03:18:56 <ais523> (nobody would be annoyed if you didn't round it; it's just usual to do so)
03:19:31 <shachaf> The UK minimum wage seems to be higher than the US's but lower than California's. Of course it's hard to compare these things.
03:19:43 <shachaf> My impression of UK software engineer wages was that they're very low compared to the US, but I don't know whether that's true.
03:19:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49854&oldid=49847 * Iovoid * (+222)
03:19:51 <shachaf> Maybe comparing to silly valley is unfair.
03:20:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49855 * Iovoid * (+1151) Created page for VoidLang
03:20:40 <alercah> it is, partly because silicon valley wages are high due to living costs
03:20:55 <alercah> (seriously, try adjusting the wages for cost of living and, while still quite high, they are far more reasonable)
03:21:16 <alercah> shachaf: here, the standard tip is 15-20% depending who you ask
03:21:22 <alercah> but traditionally this is on the pre-tax price
03:21:34 <alercah> nowadays the credit card machines do it for you, but they apply it to the total prie
03:21:41 <shachaf> Well, if wages scale linearly with cost of living, then it makes sense to live in the most expensive place you can find.
03:21:43 <alercah> so a lot of people started tipping more without knowing it
03:24:15 <ais523> <shachaf> Well, if wages scale linearly with cost of living, then it makes sense to live in the most expensive place you can find. ← that might explain London :-P
03:24:45 <ais523> London has a semi-serious issue in that housing there is in such high demand for people who work high-paying jobs in the captial
03:24:53 <shachaf> is London more expensive than the san franciscow bay area?
03:25:24 <ais523> that all the people who work support jobs, people like shelf stackers and doctors and the like, can't afford to live there on their smaller salaries
03:26:12 <ais523> london is probably less expensive than san fransisco
03:26:18 <ais523> but it's basically like a transport/housing black hole
03:26:32 <shachaf> Do UK doctors make much less money than US doctors? I think I might've heard someone say that once.
03:26:33 <ais523> a house anywhere where it's possible to commute to London to do a job is more expensive as a result
03:26:40 <ais523> even if the commute is ridiculous
03:26:50 <shachaf> How much is typical London rent?
03:27:39 <ais523> average price to buy for a flat is £494,329
03:27:43 <ais523> it's harder to figure out the renting value
03:28:03 <alercah> San Francisco is the most expensive housing in the world IIRC
03:28:10 <alercah> SF refuses to permit densification
03:28:15 <shachaf> That's pretty expensive, but it would be quite cheap in San Francisco.
03:28:28 <alercah> so the prices are skyrocketing because the supply is limited by the arbitrary rules about how high you can build
03:29:25 <ais523> it seems like most rental prices in London are in the £1000-2000 range
03:30:24 <ais523> and £12000 per year is a plausible salary for someone's first job after graduating university
03:30:51 <shachaf> That seems like practically minimum wage.
03:30:59 <shachaf> I think a 1-bedroom apartment in Berkeley, where I live, would be in that range.
03:31:03 <ais523> well a huge proportion of the country goes to university
03:31:14 <shachaf> Probably toward the mid-upper end of the range unless you get a cheap one?
03:31:50 <ais523> minimum wage in the UK varies by age: for 21-24 year olds it's £6.95
03:31:55 <zzo38> Does anything support the "Accept-Features" HTTP header?
03:32:22 <ais523> at 40 hours per week for 45 weeks, that's £12510
03:32:22 <shachaf> i,i Accept-Features: Accept-Features
03:32:46 <ais523> wow, no wonder early graduate employment is in a mess
03:33:56 <ais523> also, apprentices only have to be paid £3.40 per hour in the first year of their apprenticeship, that seems very low
03:34:02 <ais523> https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates for anyone who wants to look up the numbers
03:34:17 <alercah> ais523: it's also 50 weeks on this continent
03:34:47 <ais523> I was guessing at the amount of holiday allowance
03:35:04 <ais523> also, the amount of time spent looking for jobs when one fixed-term job after another ends
03:35:16 <ais523> (only slightly bitter about that…)
03:35:21 <ais523> I've applied for a couple of jobs but haven't heard back for weeks
03:36:02 <ais523> academic jobs, one in teaching, one in research
03:36:12 <ais523> both fields where I have experience
03:37:29 <alercah> ais523: do you not have public insurance for the in-between-jobs periods?
03:38:00 <ais523> alercah: yes, but it comes with a huge number of restrictions
03:38:06 <ais523> and the amount isn't that great
03:38:10 <ais523> I was hoping to avoid it
03:38:21 <ais523> but might be forced into it if the jobs take much longer
03:38:36 <ais523> (one of the requirements is that you have to spend much of your time applying for jobs, including ones that are a terrible fit)
03:39:00 <shachaf> Why do you want to stay in Birmingham?
03:39:02 <alercah> ahh, I believe that's not the case here; you are not expected to switch fields
03:39:26 <alercah> also if you haven't heard back in weeks it's not unreasonable to follow up
03:39:49 <ais523> shachaf: I'm really bad at travelling and living in unfamiliar places
03:39:51 <ais523> I haven't moved house /ever/
03:40:12 <ais523> other people have moved out, but I just stayed
03:40:32 <shachaf> And you also don't want to become good at it?
03:40:36 <ais523> and when I've been abroad for conferences and the like it's been terrible
03:40:51 <shachaf> What an odd thing. My family moved around probably every few years when I was young.
03:41:23 <ais523> alercah: sometimes I have problems doing even basic tasks in unfamiliar environments
03:41:38 <ais523> I almost starved to death while in France because I have food intolerances and most of the food would have triggered one or another
03:41:47 <ais523> or, well, that's an exaggeration
03:41:55 <ais523> I had enough food to live off but it was a very repetitive diet
03:41:57 <alercah> I have enough food allergies that I understand what you mean
03:42:04 <ais523> I basically lived off BLT sandwiches and crisps
03:42:26 <shachaf> I couldn't remember whether crisps are "chips" or "crackers".
03:42:38 <ais523> "potato chips" in US English, yes
03:43:04 <alercah> ais523: I think that it is something that takes getting used to
03:44:18 <ais523> the other thing is that Birmingham is almost exactly the right size for me
03:44:31 <ais523> it has a good variety of places within walking distance, for example
03:44:33 <alercah> I wish KW were slightly larger
03:44:44 <alercah> slightly more people in the same area
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03:45:48 <shachaf> San Francisco is so small.
03:46:00 <shachaf> It's not even the biggest city by population in the San Francisco Bay area.
03:46:50 <Cale> Hm, I never really had that thought when I was there :)
03:47:05 <Cale> (assuming you're talking about Kitchener-Waterloo)
03:48:17 <shachaf> kitchen 'er water loo? i 'ardly know 'er!
03:49:20 <shachaf> Maybe I should visit Toronto.
03:51:09 <\oren\> five hours till 10 AM in berlin
03:51:29 <\oren\> wikileaks approaching tick tock
03:51:35 <shachaf> Kitchener used to be called Berlin
03:52:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49856&oldid=49117 * Ais523 * (+156) /* C */ mirror of Blak
03:53:03 <alercah> shachaf: yes, kitchener-waterloo
03:53:16 <alercah> Cale: that KW could be denser?
03:53:21 <shachaf> ais523: Have you considered some sort of software type of job? I hear they're good.
03:53:37 <shachaf> (I'm not sure I actually hear that. I mostly hear people complaining about them.)
03:54:03 <ais523> shachaf: considered it, yes
03:54:13 <ais523> if the current jobs fall through then that's my fallback
03:57:19 <shachaf> I think I worked in the same building as Don Woods once.
03:57:26 <shachaf> But I suspect his job was not related to INTERCAL.
03:57:32 <izalove> guess the next term 3 7 13 31 61 127 251
03:58:07 <ais523> hmm, let's let lambdabot have a guess
03:58:09 <shachaf> izalove: http://slbkbs.org/math-diff-2-4.txt hth
03:58:13 <ais523> @oeis 3 7 13 31 61 127 251
03:58:14 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A014234 Largest prime <= 2^n.
03:58:14 <lambdabot> [2,3,7,13,31,61,127,251,509,1021,2039,4093,8191,16381,32749,65521,131071,262...
03:58:25 <ais523> izalove: lambdabot guesses 509
03:58:41 <izalove> how does lambdabot find it?
03:59:00 <izalove> it's not even in the first page of results on oeis.org
03:59:03 <ais523> basically it just searches in a huge database of sequences
03:59:42 <shachaf> http://oeis.org/search?q=3%2C7%2C13%2C31%2C61%2C127%2C251
04:00:02 <ais523> http://oeis.org/search?q=3%2C7%2C13%2C31%2C61%2C127%2C251&language=english&go=Search
04:00:15 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A035485 Card on top of deck at n-th stage of R. K. Guy's sh...
04:00:15 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,1,6,5,9,1,4,2,16,10,12,14,23,16,18,20,17,27,30,33,38,10,14,37,32,6,11...
04:00:22 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A059805 Natural numbers written with digits grouped in pair...
04:00:22 <lambdabot> [12,34,56,78,91,1,11,21,31,41,51,61,71,81,92,2,12,22,32,42,52,62,72,82,93,3,...
04:00:47 <ais523> I was going to say, that sequence doesn't have an obvious way to continue indefinitely
04:00:52 <ais523> but it looks like OEIS knew of one
04:01:39 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000796 Decimal expansion of Pi (or, digits of Pi).
04:01:39 <lambdabot> [3,1,4,1,5,9,2,6,5,3,5,8,9,7,9,3,2,3,8,4,6,2,6,4,3,3,8,3,2,7,9,5,0,2,8,8,4,1...
04:02:14 <ais523> shachaf: re the minimum wage rise / corporation tax cut, my reasoning was that it's logical that if you're being protectionist wrt workers, you'd want to ensure that all the jobs were filled via increasing pay, as you can't rely on migrant workers any more
04:03:42 <\oren\> I prefer mercantilism to protectionism. Buy cheap and sell dear, on the level of nationstates
04:04:23 <shachaf> i,i buy sheep and sell deer
04:05:05 <ais523> \oren\: I didn't want to make a judgement as to whether protectionism was a good thing, just work out how you'd have to adjust things in the likely event that it's implemented
04:05:25 <izalove> shachaf: a little topological group representation theory is not amiss if you happen to end up a quantum mechanic, repairing other peoples' quanta when they begin to wear out
04:05:47 <\oren\> if you can mak sure you sell lots of finished goods and buy only raw materials, then money will flow into your country...
04:06:30 <ais523> \oren\: well the UK's exports are mostly services
04:08:08 <shachaf> \oren\: Is money flowing into your country a good thing?
04:09:00 <shachaf> If real world goods are flowing out of your country and in return some numbers get bigger, is that really to your advantage?
04:09:06 <\oren\> yes. if your country has more money, then on average everyone in your country has more moeny
04:09:47 <shachaf> But money is still not real.
04:10:22 <\oren\> in the time of mercantilism, moeny was gold
04:10:39 <shachaf> Well, at least you can't print gold.
04:11:19 <\oren\> you could do a similar thing creating a policy where your country is gathering large amounts of any valuable thing
04:11:34 <\oren\> gold happened to be the thing in the 1800's
04:12:01 <\oren\> most countries still have their gold reserves
04:12:12 <shachaf> \oren\: What do you think of this crackpot-sounding PDF? http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf
04:12:35 <\oren\> but gold is no longer that useful
04:12:35 <shachaf> It says some things that are obviously problematic, but I'm not sure what to make of the overall idea.
04:12:47 <shachaf> Gold has never been that useful.
04:12:53 <\oren\> I would recommend that countries gather plutonium
04:13:04 <Cale> alercah: yeah, I mean, there are obviously denser cities, but I didn't feel like it was too sparse or anything... there always seemed to be plenty of stuff to do.
04:13:20 <shachaf> Cale: What did you think of New York?
04:13:22 <izalove> shachaf: ooh you're the author
04:13:24 <shachaf> Wait, were you in NY or Boston?
04:13:30 <\oren\> plutonium stockpiles are very valuable to a country
04:13:35 <shachaf> izalove: I'm not the author of that text.
04:13:42 <shachaf> There's a reference at the top.
04:13:48 <izalove> you're the author of the description for jsgif?
04:14:07 <shachaf> I thought you were talking about the excerpt from _Mathematics Made Difficult_
04:14:14 <alercah> Cale: It's not bad if you have a car
04:14:23 <shachaf> Cale: Did you read that book?
04:14:38 <alercah> right now, with the construction, travelling by foot/bus is pretty bad
04:15:24 <\oren\> shachaf: well gold used to be useful because eveyone used it as money
04:15:34 <Cale> shachaf: New York is fun to visit, but it's a bit stressful.
04:15:55 <\oren\> you could make a case for countries to crate large stockpiles of american dollars...
04:16:09 <Cale> shachaf: I've been to both NYC and Boston in somewhat recent times
04:16:12 <shachaf> Here's a PDF (25MB): http://i7-dungeon.sourceforge.net/math_hard.pdf
04:16:17 <\oren\> or other "safe" currencies
04:18:18 <HackEgo> olist 1054: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
04:19:21 <ais523> so why don't people just put a ping on `olist, rather than adding themself to the list?
04:21:15 <shachaf> I think there might be some lists with no official subscribers?
04:21:36 <zzo38> It is what I suggested for `danddreclist too, and use that even if HackEgo won't respond for any reason
04:21:56 <zzo38> But yes, also with other stuff such as `olist I suggest you can do that kind of stuff.
04:30:17 <shachaf> \oren\: What do you think of that PDF?
04:37:55 <oerjan> <ais523> so why don't people just put a ping on `olist, rather than adding themself to the list? <-- i usually see the `olist in the logs, not in irssi.
04:38:18 <ais523> well in that case your name isn't pinging you either
04:38:23 <ais523> unless you grep for your name in the logs, I guess
04:38:39 <ais523> grep is sort-of an after-the-fact log-based version of pinging
04:38:42 <oerjan> i search for my name in IE hth
04:39:06 <oerjan> it's very reasonable as long as it's only one string
04:40:11 <quintopia> i was excited for a moment when the channel was vaguely about esolangs. can we do that again? :P
04:40:41 <ais523> what were we discussing?
04:40:52 <ais523> did you see my edit to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Black?
04:41:16 <ais523> (apparently the interp has vanished and wasn't in the web archive, so I rehosted it; it's not my interp but I happened to have a copy saved)
04:46:31 <quintopia> you should have proved it TC by now
04:47:58 <\oren\> shachaf: it's a very vehement exposition of some blindly obvious facts, combined with some bullshit
04:48:00 <ais523> I haven't been working on it all that time!
04:48:09 <ais523> also, the fact of my edit, and the circumstances surrounding it
04:48:21 <ais523> increase the chance that someone else will prove it TC and save me the bother :-P
04:49:04 <quintopia> considering that you already understand it well enough to write a meaningful program in it means you have a head start on all such people
04:50:19 <shachaf> \oren\: I can't tell whether the first part is true.
04:53:58 <\oren\> well, i mean, it's obvious that with fiat currency and in particular with electronic money, the government can create as much money as it wants or needs at any time
04:54:13 <shachaf> Yes, that much is obvious.
04:54:26 <shachaf> (Except the federal reserve system is very complicated for some reason.)
04:54:43 <shachaf> But are all the consequences of that obvious?
04:56:32 <\oren\> no, because he made other assumptions
04:57:21 <shachaf> For example, people talk about government deficits being bad, and say that a government's spending should be lower than its tax revenue.
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04:57:44 <shachaf> But if money is created only by the government, and you want the money supply to grow, is that really the case?
04:57:51 <\oren\> firstly, if a government prints too much money, its citizens will silently rebel by using foreign currencies and barter, not silently suffer
04:58:27 <shachaf> Of course there are negative consequences to printing unlimited amount of money.
04:58:47 <shachaf> (I don't think there was a claim to the contrary.)
04:59:13 <shachaf> Of course, money is introduced by many people other than the government.
05:00:15 <\oren\> no, but there are a bunch of places where I think he ignores the fact that currencies can start to compete within the economy
05:00:51 <\oren\> that is, not all transactions use the official currency of a country, especially when there is dysfunction
05:01:37 <shachaf> One of the goals of anyone who makes any sort of currency is to have people trust it.
05:02:50 <\oren\> so not only will other countries not accept your currency, but a government can't actually force its citizens to use a currency
05:03:44 <shachaf> Well, they can require taxes to be paid in that currency.
05:03:50 <\oren\> so inflation rates have to be kept at a slow and veyr steady amount
05:04:56 <shachaf> I think people have been trying unsuccessfully to increase USD inflation.
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05:09:24 <quintopia> ais523: i made a Black gate that does a thing. maybe it will help.
05:09:49 <ais523> quintopia: the hard part is decrementing variables
05:09:55 <ais523> a variable needs to extend past the original area of the program
05:10:11 <ais523> which means that the turning apparatus you need to decrement it needs to be shoved further and further out over time
05:10:22 <ais523> the example program on the page is a proof that the decrement is possible
05:10:33 <ais523> so I felt reasonably confident at that point that it was TC
05:11:04 <quintopia> ais523: i'm just thinking about building logic gates and circuits and stuff.
05:11:28 <ais523> ah right, the control rather than the data
05:11:47 <ais523> I hadn't thought much about that
05:12:58 <izalove> stupid america and stupid month/day/year dates
05:13:44 <izalove> https://github.com/aappleby/smhasher last commit on jan 9 and the text says "update: 1/8/2016"
05:14:00 <izalove> total wtf for a couple of minutes
05:14:23 <\oren\> I prefer the japanese/chinese system where each number is labeled
05:14:45 <izalove> pretty much any other scheme is better
05:15:37 <\oren\> izalove: what about century/month/day/yearofcentury? 20/1/8/16
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05:16:44 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: and then Japanese has an era. H28/8/16
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05:20:04 <\oren\> 3:40 hours till Assange will give his address
05:21:13 <\oren\> I mean address as in a speech
05:21:24 <\oren\> for the 10th anniversary of wikileaks
05:28:45 <ais523> clearly dates should give the year number mod 3, 5, 7, 11, and 13
05:28:58 <ais523> that'll be unambiguous until the year 15016, at least if you know which field is which
05:30:17 <myname> we could easily do the same fir month and day
05:30:51 <myname> like a binary clock but with mod results instead of single led
05:31:45 <ais523> actually, remove 3 from the year
05:31:55 <ais523> use 5, 7, 11, 13 for the year, 3 and 4 for the month, 31 for the day
05:32:29 <myname> nah, the same for everything, otherwise it'd be way too easy
05:33:28 <myname> like, what fun is it to see 27th if you can have 2, 6, 5, 1
05:35:12 <myname> also, we could just use the discordian dates
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05:41:29 <ais523> myname: maybe the day uses 2 and 17?
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05:41:41 <ais523> or, hmm, perhaps duplicates are OK
05:41:47 <ais523> 2 and 4 is dubious enough as-is
05:42:22 <myname> using the same primes make a neat table
05:43:02 <myname> like, 5,7,11,13 as columns and year,month,day as rows
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05:45:33 <quintopia> til esoteric programming languages are "Langages de programmation exotiques" in French. exotic! now thats classy!
05:47:24 <ais523> ugh, I should really work out the details of the language I wanted to work out the details of
05:47:30 <ais523> is the calesyta esolang challenge still going?
05:47:42 <myname> maybe in france, esoteric isn't that esoteric
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05:55:55 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: is this related to the US elections?
05:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, the president-elect isn't sworn in until January...
05:56:45 <ais523> so why do you think the world will end by november 15?
05:57:32 <izalove> trump should at least wait for the release of disney's moana
05:57:36 <izalove> before destroying the world
05:58:04 <izalove> blowing up the planet before that would be a dick move
05:58:34 <ais523> I'm at least mildly confident that if it came to a war between the US and the rest of the world, the rest of the world could deal with the problem without accidentally ending human civilisation in the process
05:58:37 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: After would be completely fair though; I mean, this is the planet that elected Trump
05:58:48 <ais523> he hasn't been elected yet
05:58:58 <ais523> and is currently projected to have around a 1 in 3 chance of winning
05:59:10 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I know enough about elections to know that they can be determined by completely random stuff
05:59:27 <ais523> but less worried than I could be
05:59:33 <ais523> do you have a vote in the US, and if so, in which state?
05:59:56 <ais523> you can be preferable without actually being good
06:00:22 <ais523> I'd rather write an IRC client in INTERCAL than Malbolge, but neither is an appropriate choice
06:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I think it boils down to being shot in the foot or shot in the head; neither is good, but one isn't going to kill you
06:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't think it'd be even possible to write it in malbolge; it doesn't do sockets iirc
06:01:14 <ais523> put it in a loop with netcat
06:02:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Read Send Eval Receive Print Loop- SSH, basically)
06:02:48 <ais523> that said, CLC-INTERCAL does have sockets
06:03:04 <ais523> also the best IPv6 compatibility method I've ever seen
06:03:11 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: As in, data is sent to remote, evaluated there, and the response is sent back
06:03:36 <ais523> (you can look up an IPv6 IP as though it were a domain name, or an IPv6-only domain name, and you'll get a fake IPv4 address in response which then gets translated to and from the IPv6 address behind the scenes)
06:03:49 <izalove> shouldn't it be read send receive eval send receive print loop ?
06:04:01 <ais523> "receive eval send loop" is probably the best name for it
06:09:19 <zzo38> Does any program other than CLC-INTERCAL capable to do such a thing with IPv6 compatibility?
06:09:46 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know of one, although that doesn't mean that there isn't one I don't know about
06:10:37 <myname> i'd just say remote-repl
06:11:51 <izalove> but what does remote stand for
06:12:42 <myname> "somewhere, maybe but not necessarily here"
06:13:40 <myname> that's because it isn't one
06:13:48 <myname> also, INTERCAL is way worse
06:14:12 <ais523> is that even an acronym?
06:14:17 <hppavilion[1]> Sufficiently advanced friendship is indistinguishable from magic
06:14:22 <ais523> it's pronounceable, which would tend to imply not
06:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> Also, any technology that is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
06:14:37 <myname> it stands for Programming Language With No Pronouncable Acronym
06:14:53 <ais523> I believe the only official statement along the lines is "INTERCAL is short for Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym"
06:15:03 <ais523> which implies that it's an abbreviation, but no necessarily an acronym
06:15:31 <ais523> also, it's only dubiously a real word (which tends to imply that it isn't an acronym), and it isn't an initialism
06:15:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: intercal's not that old, i guess
06:16:17 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Would you be surprised if it wanted us to use old English?
06:16:19 <myname> see, not "old english" old
06:16:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You clearly aren't in the INTERCALlian spirit then
06:16:55 <myname> intercal is more of a "look at what you can do" instead of a "look what we moved away from"
06:17:10 <myname> if it would be the later, it would still have goto
06:17:11 <ais523> INTERCAL is designed to do things differently from other languages, that is its only real guiding principle
06:17:26 <ais523> note that this allows doing things better in cases where most other languages mess them up
06:17:41 <ais523> however, normally all the best options are already taken, thus forcing INTERCAL to choose a worse one
06:20:44 <myname> if it doesn't have null pointers, it is still a better language than go
06:21:42 <ais523> you possibly don't want to know how INTERCAL's closest pointer equivalents work :-P
06:22:07 <ais523> although they have null pointers to the same extent that they have multivalued pointers
06:22:30 <ais523> and some pointer-like constructs have a pointer end up pointing to itself if you attempt to unset it
06:24:29 <zzo38> GOTO is still something that would help in some programming languages which don't have it; in some of these cases they eventually did add goto
06:24:35 <zzo38> But JavaScript still doesn't yet
06:25:03 <myname> i am not sure if goto would be any good in an event based language
06:26:24 <zzo38> What do you mean by "event based language" exactly?
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07:11:29 <izalove> that can output any amount of bytes
07:11:57 <izalove> seed it with a fixed value
07:12:50 <izalove> then something like uint32_t hash = rng(); while (*data) hash ^= rng() * *data++;
07:13:11 <izalove> can be adapted to output a 64 bit hash by calling rng twice in the loop
07:13:24 <izalove> or 128 bit or 196 bit or 1024 bit
07:18:46 <izalove> any feedback would be appreciated.. <.<
07:18:46 <ais523> it's not too stupid but it's probably better to use a fixed sequence of values rather than random values
07:18:52 <ais523> otherwise you get silly behaviour when the RNG outputs 0, or a stream of the same value in a row, etc.
07:19:15 <ais523> many actual insecure hash functions use that sort of formula though
07:19:51 <izalove> the rng is a way to generate a fixed sequence of decently distributed numbers
07:20:27 <ais523> one well-known hash (ISBN check codes) uses the sequence 1, 2, 3, 4, … 10 for the purpose
07:20:39 <ais523> so I'm not sure that being decently distributed is required here :-D
07:20:47 <shachaf> ais523: I have a vote in California.
07:21:03 <shachaf> That's not very useful as far as influecing the national election.
07:21:12 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, that's one of the least valuable states to have a vote in, sadly
07:21:18 <ais523> at least it means you could safely screw around with it
07:21:33 <ais523> (also, influencing the popular vote might potentially help in the case of a close decision)
07:22:25 <ais523> there's at least one stupid scenario, with a fraction-of-a-percent chance, in which the house of representatives gets to pick between clinton, trump, and johnson
07:22:41 <ais523> and if clinton doesn't win the popular vote they'll almost certainly go for trump in that situation
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08:02:01 <izalove> with that hash function it's easy to generate a bloom filter
08:02:14 <izalove> just initialize with n different seeds
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08:29:00 <izalove> https://www.scribd.com/doc/18093757/Fuckin-Concrete-Contemporary-Abstract-Algebra-Introduction-by-Nicolas-Bourbaki-Junior
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11:41:25 <HackEgo> treant//Treants are genericized ents for intellectual property reasons.
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15:20:31 <oerjan> @tell fizzie You know, maybe zemhill_____ should sometimes _subtract_ an underscore hth
15:34:08 <oerjan> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKAY
15:35:07 <FreeFull> negative numbers don't even real
15:38:37 <oerjan> and these newfangled numbers larger than two are suspect as well.
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16:22:04 <FireFly> FreeFull: gotta stay positive, I like it
16:52:54 <Taneb> `quote different result
16:52:55 <HackEgo> 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
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17:16:56 * oerjan feels obligated to link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI
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17:50:25 <int-e> It's been a while... I wonder whether the original swf is still around.
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18:38:03 <`^_^v> thank you moonythedwarf. your kindness these past few days has warmed my heart
18:39:41 <quintopia> haven't heard that song in a while
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18:41:30 <quintopia> it bothers me that the song says "he" but the animation shows a "she"
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19:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be studying the "signs" of a set, which is a mathematical idea of mine (it could already exist, but I haven't heard of it) that ISN'T half-baked
19:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> It's essentially a way of generalizing positive and negative numbers
19:34:49 <hppavilion[1]> I'll explain if anyone is interested, once I write down an ACIIable version
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19:39:40 <quintopia> hey, it can't be less half-baked than the "signs" of M. Night Shyamalan
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19:48:25 <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas?
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20:50:29 <HackEgo> banach-tarski//"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
20:58:50 <HackEgo> αλτγρ+γ//αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo!
20:59:07 <HackEgo> ruby//Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
20:59:18 <HackEgo> wth//WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
20:59:23 <HackEgo> @//@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
20:59:29 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
20:59:35 <HackEgo> overworld//The overworld is an alternative name for the world map, used by players of the Zelda video games.
20:59:45 <HackEgo> structural subtyping//Not to be confused with substructural typing.
20:59:53 <HackEgo> ipu//IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
21:00:00 <HackEgo> semmelweis//Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
21:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> `learn hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:01:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'hðh': hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:01:49 <HackEgo> hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:02:07 <HackEgo> hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk
21:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> `learn hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. Not to be confused with hppavilion_n
21:02:49 <HackEgo> Relearned 'hppavilion': hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. Not to be confused with hppavilion_n
21:05:39 <shachaf> Pointing out that you're being annoying does not free you from any consequences of being annoying.
21:05:56 <shachaf> If anything it does the opposite.
21:06:41 <hppavilion[1]> For people who get confused if I accidentally slip back into ERA
21:07:02 <hppavilion[1]> (I use ERA outside of #esoteric; I only avoid it here out of consideration for the request of those with bad Unicode handling in their clients)
21:07:08 <shachaf> No, you felt it'd be funny.
21:09:33 <\oren\> I wasn't expecting Semmelweis to be a real person
21:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, was it a user that recently joined and turned out to not be a bot?
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21:18:28 <HackEgo> semmelweis//Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
21:19:05 <\oren\> the trick was disinfecting their hands before delivering babies
21:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But why would doctors hate him? It's more chargeable if the mother lives because (a) nasty ethics like "don't make people pay you, at least as much, when you seriously failed" don't get in the way as often and (b) dead men need no doctors (except, y'know, coroners), so they won't be returning customers
21:23:15 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: they hated him for suggesting that a gentleman's hands could possibly carry disease
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21:24:28 <int-e> . o O ( They could carry the disease... of love! )
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21:56:30 <tswett> So people apparently sometimes say that Grover's algorithm can be used for "searching a database".
21:57:59 <tswett> Suppose I have a "quantum hard drive" that I can store qubits in, but when I'm pulling qubits out, I have to specify the index classically; I can't ask for a superposition of indices.
21:58:51 <tswett> Is there a way I can store a database on this quantum hard drive such that I can use Grover's algorithm to quickly search it?
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22:29:37 <int-e> tswett: I'm not an expert on this, but as I understand it, no; Wikipedia agrees: "Roughly speaking, if we have a function y = f(x) that can be evaluated on a quantum computer, Grover's algorithm allows us to calculate x when given y."
22:50:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49857&oldid=49855 * Iovoid * (+538) Add examples.
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23:25:00 <HackEgo> #programming//No such channel. See `? #esoteric
23:26:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdon: not found
23:26:19 <HackEgo> oregon//Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left.
23:26:27 <HackEgo> codoctor//P⚭Q ∧ P ∈ 𝔻𝕣 → Q ∈ 𝔻𝕣*
23:26:49 <HackEgo> northumberland//Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
23:26:57 <HackEgo> heh//heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps.
23:27:05 <HackEgo> the universe//The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
23:27:20 <HackEgo> finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
23:27:27 <HackEgo> dynamic-wind//dynamic-wind is the opposite of static-wind.
23:31:08 <boily> he\\oren\. please be advised that nothing can oppose oerjan hth
23:31:27 <HackEgo> fire//Fire, fire, everywhere, nor any drop to drink.
23:33:05 <HackEgo> scotland//<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes
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23:37:07 <boily> quinthellopia, hellørjan.
23:37:30 * boily opposes oerjan. FOR SCIENCE!
23:37:35 <oerjan> hoily. i have found the universe quite efficient at opposing me, actually.
23:38:07 * oerjan refuses to oppose either, on principle
23:39:30 <quintopia> im not totally opposing boily, i just think he hasnt given vocaloid a completely fair shot.
23:39:38 * oerjan gets hit by the falling anvil. it's been a while...
23:41:04 <shachaf> oppose is when you reverse all the 2-cells in a pose?
23:41:39 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas? <-- . o O ( baguette derivatives )
23:41:58 <quintopia> no its when you give a pose the permission to kick people from the channel
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23:42:50 <oerjan> <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas? <-- . o O ( baguette derivatives )
23:43:11 <quintopia> tell us aboit set signs then hppavilion[1]
23:44:10 <oerjan> quintopia: itym posse hth
23:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> Signs are basically a way of generalizing positive and negative (and zero) numbers that I'm playing with
23:48:03 <shachaf> a heffalomp or wuzzle / is very confuzzle
23:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> You have a set S and a magnitude function (which is basically a more general absolute value) #x : S -> T that may or may not need to satisfy some properties that I haven't found to be needed yet
23:49:09 <boily> they come in ones and twoosels.
23:49:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Assume for now T is a subset of S. Other cases are possible, of course, but I'm ignoring those for now)
23:51:38 <shachaf> a heffalomp or wuzzle's very sly
23:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> So for many definitions of #x, there will be several values x, y where x /= y, #x = #y (by the pigeonhole principle, definitely any where T has lesser cardinality (which is, by the way, a possible definition of #) than X)
23:51:59 <HackEgo> hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. A common alternative definition is the set of all items yielded by the general case of the generator. Not to be confused with hppavilion^k or hppavilion_m.
23:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> And sign basically is what makes those values different.
23:52:50 <quintopia> well...all of that seems rather obvious, but how is it useful?
23:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> Like, y'know, when your set is Z and magnitude is just normal absolute value, -1 /= 1 but |-1| = |1| = 1
23:53:52 <hppavilion[1]> This feels like one of those things that HAS to be useful (not random babbling), but I don't know of an exact application
23:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> (I think I might have had one in mind earlier, but I've forgotten it if so)
23:54:34 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: But the point is that sign can be something more than just + - 0; you can have arbitrarily many of them
23:54:58 <shachaf> You can even have a cosign for every sign.
23:55:17 <hppavilion[1]> Probably, let's be honest, that's going to come up eventually
23:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> (If you're doing complex numbers, you have uncountably many if you use normal absolute value for magnitude; the signs represent points on the unit circle)
23:56:51 <oerjan> `learn A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead.
23:56:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'heffalump': A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead.
23:57:08 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Oh, and even if you just use Q, you can find alternative similar interpretations to positive and negative that are very different.
23:57:21 <shachaf> oerjan: that wisdom entry is very confusil
23:58:00 <quintopia> a hefelump is a lump of sugar fermented with yeast
23:58:26 <oerjan> quintopia: is that a pun or just a mispling
23:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> Using mfloor(x) instead of abs(x), sign becomes any number n/m : m in N*, n in N, -1 ≤ n ≤ 1
00:00:48 * oerjan hasn't heard that term before.
00:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> I really want a thing similar to saying positive/negative/zero, but multiplicative instead of additive; positive-analog is abs(x) > 1, negative-analog is abs(x) < 1, zero-analog is abs(x) = 1
00:02:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: are you sure you mean abs there
00:03:26 <hppavilion[1]> (I could call them "superlative", "sublative", and "one", perhaps)
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00:05:14 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, the sign of n indicates whether lim(lambda x: n^x, omega) is 0, ±infinity, or... whatever it is when n = 1 or n = -1
00:05:27 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: how about contractile and dilatory and one
00:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> ...are those existing words or did you come up wiht that?
00:06:24 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: maybe you should learn linear algebra by watching these videos: https://www.khanacademy.org/math/linear-algebra/eola-topic/eola/v/eola-preview
00:06:31 <shachaf> you can confirm or deny it
00:06:48 <oerjan> (that was to hppavilion[1])
00:07:37 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Oh! I think I'm already subscribed to the guy who makes that series, and I've been meaning to watch them!
00:08:42 <oerjan> i just don't think dilatory is wrong.
00:08:47 <shachaf> You can watch them right now. They're only about an hour, and split into separate segments.
00:09:01 <shachaf> (Maybe a little too visual.)
00:09:11 <quintopia> i was using words that have other meanings on purpose
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00:09:15 <shachaf> And maybe a little bit too matrix-focused. But I'm not sure about that.
00:09:41 <oerjan> hm neither is contractile, indeed.
00:09:41 <quintopia> dilatory means "delaying" contractile refers to muscle tissue
00:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Well, also dilation in the sense of what they do to make your eyes bigger
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00:53:41 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play Scowder & Web?
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01:22:42 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...the quote on video #3 is "Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself." -Morpheus
01:24:25 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, are shachafs an absolute measurement of pun (dimension P), or is it P/E (where E is the dimension of effort)?
01:25:12 <hppavilion[1]> Thus meaning even a REALLY funny joke gets a low score if it's two obvious, and something not very funny gets a high score if it takes some thinking to find it (but not to understand it)?
01:25:39 <hppavilion[1]> (I guess it'd be P/E^2 in that case, if we want to measure effort to make it vs. effort to get it)
01:27:57 <shachaf> My name is not a unit, please.
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01:32:07 <shachaf> No word ending in chaf is a unit, please.
01:35:22 <boily> the unit symbol is «Sh» hth.
01:37:05 <shachaf> How about: "grumps" or "groans"
01:37:28 <shachaf> As they say: The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder.
01:37:51 * boily experimentally thwacks shachaf. 0.63 groans.
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01:48:00 <oerjan> well i liked shachaf, but i guess this new unit may groan me.
01:49:59 * boily THWACKS oerjan. 0.94 groans.
01:50:57 <shachaf> a pun reaches 1.0 when it can make a groan man cry
01:51:20 <shachaf> (by the way i like the pun but i don't like the anti-crying masculinity scow)
01:57:10 * boily thwackthwacks shachaf. 0.945 groans
01:58:25 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
01:58:48 <shachaf> `slwd boily//s/Man/Groan Man/
01:58:50 <HackEgo> wisdom/boily//"Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
02:00:43 <boily> I like the fact Trigotillectomic is a hapax googlegomenon that directly points to me :D
02:01:26 <shachaf> It always looked too complicated so I pretended it was "Trigonometric" or something and skipped it.
02:01:42 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
02:01:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 050000Z 00000KT 15SM SKC 15/10 A3031 RMK SLP268 \ ENVA 050050Z 11005KT CAVOK 03/01 Q1046 RMK WIND 670FT 14007KT \ ESSB 050050Z AUTO 35005KT 9999 NCD 04/02 Q1043 \ KOAK 050053Z 28011KT 10SM
02:01:45 <lambdabot> FEW020 20/11 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP150 T02000106
02:08:22 <boily> there should be a spaceheater lobbing service. you enter your ICBM coordinates on their website, and they trebuchet you a warmed up heater.
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02:24:48 <HackEgo> endofunctor//Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
02:24:52 <HackEgo> loudly//Did you mean: loudly
02:24:55 <HackEgo> persistence//Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
02:24:57 <HackEgo> mroman//mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
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02:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> Idea to make a small amount of energy more impressive: Express it as a volume (in km^3 (or k(m^3) to make it even bigger)) of average space in the universe where, at the universe's average density, the mass in that space has E (by E = mc^2) equal to the energy
02:36:18 <shachaf> whoa, invented the identity function?
02:36:21 <shachaf> I use that one all the time.
02:37:06 <ais523> `` echo identity | cat | cat | cat | cat
02:37:43 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: what IS a hash worse than the identity function
02:37:58 <shachaf> i,i putting the cat before the hose
02:38:25 <ais523> the identity function is actually a pretty good hash if your input is restricted enough
02:38:38 <ais523> Java probably uses the identity function as Integer#hashCode, for example
02:38:39 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: And if people shouldn't be able to derive the input from the hash
02:38:49 <ais523> that's a cryptohash, different field
02:39:32 * hppavilion[1] suspects the proper mathematical answer to "what's a worse hash" requires that you formally define badness...
02:39:48 <ais523> but speed hashes and cryptohashes are normally very different in design and the considerations for them are pretty much completely different
02:39:53 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, I decided on a better notation for "is a divisor of" today
02:40:18 <ais523> the only middle ground I can think of is speed hashes that use a randomized algorithm to stop people intentionally colliding them to trigger algorithmic worst cases
02:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> Created by analogy that the subset symbol is like less-than-or-equal-to, strict subset like less-than, superset is like greater-than-or-equal-to, and strict superset is like greater-than
02:41:48 <hppavilion[1]> Like a < with a stroke from the initial to the midpoint of the endpoints
02:44:08 <HackEgo> [U+2AAC SMALLER THAN OR EQUAL TO]
02:44:38 <ais523> shachaf: how does `icode differ from `unidecode?
02:45:01 <shachaf> The joke is unicode -> icode
02:45:08 <hppavilion[1]> Granted, the only real appeals are completing the symbolic analogy, freeing up | for logical things (when you should already be using ∨ for OR and ⊼ for NAND), and being mirrorable
02:45:46 <HackEgo> U+0000 <control> \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: � \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C
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02:49:26 <hppavilion[1]> Matrices annoy me just a tiny bit because of their limit to 2D
02:49:56 <shachaf> Matrices are linear maps between vector spaces of any dimension.
02:50:17 <shachaf> This is like saying that functions annoy you because there's only a domain and codomain.
02:50:26 <shachaf> If you want multi-argument functions, they are available.
02:50:41 <shachaf> And so are multi-argument linear maps.
02:50:59 <shachaf> Tensors might be what you want.
02:51:04 <shachaf> Or they might not, who knows.
02:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> You can do a matrix fairly tolerably in 4D by treating it as a matrix where the individual values are themselves matrices
02:51:22 <shachaf> But a bilinear function : UxV -> W is the same as a linear function : U⊗V -> W
02:51:45 <hppavilion[1]> (And you can multiply them by normal matrices and call it scalars!)
02:51:46 <shachaf> A linear map : U -> V is also the same as an element of the vector space U*⊗V
02:52:26 <shachaf> (dim (U⊗V) = dim U * dim V)
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03:23:29 <hppavilion[1]> Since there's matrix multiplication, there must be division; but it isn't commutative, so... Oh my god. Are there TWO division operations for matrices? A/B = C : BC = A and A\B = C : CB = A?
03:24:09 <shachaf> Neither the first nor the last statement is trur.
03:24:49 <oerjan> well the last is true.
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03:26:02 <shachaf> I don't think matrices are even a quasigroup.
03:26:12 <oerjan> if B isn't invertible, then division might not be uniquely defined.
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03:27:13 <oerjan> basically because you can add any C' such that BC' = 0 (or vice versa)
03:27:37 <oerjan> and of course it might not exist to begin with.
03:28:05 <oerjan> but _if_ B is invertible, there may be two division operations.
03:29:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: summary: division need not exist, it need not be unique when it exists, but if it exists and is unique, you might still have two operations like you say.
03:31:05 <shachaf> But it'll probably be clearer to write BA^-1 or A^-1B?
03:33:02 <oerjan> well you could still have division without having an inverse, sometimes.
03:38:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well I was bound to come back at /some/ point and read it
03:39:14 <hppavilion[1]> (Full disclosure: I was already aware that you can have two different division operations; I found that out when reading through the Octave docs when I tried to learn Octave. But I'm confident I would've said the same thing if I didn't already know and had managed to brain-stumble into division)
03:42:06 * oerjan injects \oren\ with morphine
03:43:19 * hppavilion[1] tries to stop oerjan, but is too late; that was hyper-concentrated #esoteric-grade morphine for use on Venezuelans and those who dare challenge fungot, and the amount administered would be a lethal dose to a horse
03:43:20 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i agree with sukoshi. why i use directed quotes in underload
03:43:21 <oerjan> well he seemed pain, so i wanted to help him feel morphine
03:44:09 <oerjan> fungot: can you please teach hppavilion[1] to babble more coherently
03:44:09 <fungot> oerjan: mainly because i don't use the plural of " anecdote" is not fundamentally better than computers solving impossible problems, religious people should not comment on mathematical issues
03:44:33 <shachaf> Cale: whoa whoa whoa, vivid drone change
03:44:54 <ais523> huh, it's me who used directed quotes in underload, that must be what fungot was referring too
03:44:54 <fungot> ais523: well then i guess it's not a macro. if you
03:45:52 <\oren\> they must have known demn well that a pencil doesn't have any lead metal in it
03:45:55 <shachaf> ais523: That quote was certainly directed at you.
03:46:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But my coherence mathematically approaches 0 as time goes to 0. I can't resist it.
03:46:16 <\oren\> but they still wrote "pencil" with the kanji for the metal lead!
03:46:54 <hppavilion[1]> Now for a question of genuine interest to me, mostly because of some cryptographic applications: There are k! ways to arrange a list L of k distinct items. Which is which? That is, find a way to bijectively map numbers from 1 to k! to rearrangements of the list
03:47:44 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: Fisher shuffle
03:47:55 <ais523> is the usual way to biject that
03:48:05 <oerjan> \oren\: en:pencil = no:blyant, en:lead = no:bly hth
03:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Biggest interest: Giving every monoalphabetic english cypher a unique name from 1 to 403291461126605635584000000)
03:48:14 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I was about to explain that, then I remembered there's a name for it. "fisher shuffle"
03:48:21 <ais523> basically, you divide the number by k, the remainder gives the new position of the first list elemetn
03:48:40 <ais523> then you divide the result of the division by k-1, the remainder gives the new position of the second list element within the remaining slots
03:48:52 <Cale> shachaf: Yeah, it's like a completely different unit
03:48:57 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: There's no natural isomorphism between permutations and total orders on a set.
03:49:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well yes, what I'm going for is one that doesn't require you to just write every single one down
03:49:26 <ais523> shachaf: this doesn't need naturality, though, just a bijection
03:49:26 <shachaf> Probably this number thing is along the same lines.
03:49:53 <ais523> obviously there are 2**k! bijections, but the Fisher shuffle one is the one that everyone uses in practice
03:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> And it even satisfies the thing I was hoping for where the original is shuffle #0! Yay!
03:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> (well, #1, but I shifted everything off by 1 to make things start at 0- as it should be)
03:52:36 <oerjan> \oren\: also de:Bleistift vs. Blei
03:53:04 <oerjan> \oren\: conclusion, at some time in history pencils _did_ use lead, and some languages named them based on that
03:54:42 <shachaf> I think I have some graphite in my skin from a pencil many years ago.
03:56:14 <oerjan> \oren\: oh, if i'm reading german wikipedia correctly, it was a misunderstanding, people confused graphite with galena
03:58:26 <oerjan> ais523: itym (k!)! hth
03:59:04 <ais523> wow that's a big number
03:59:10 <ais523> (assuming k is not trivially small)
04:04:24 <oerjan> \oren\: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil#Discovery_of_graphite_deposit
04:10:02 <izalove> let's assume a world where you can't hardlink directories and bind mounts don't exist etc
04:10:25 <izalove> how costly would it be to save in each directory the total size in bytes of all the files in its subtree?
04:17:01 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: k!! is the product of all numbers in 1..k that have the same parity (even or odd) as k
04:17:16 <alercah> I've never heard of that but ok
04:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> Because Merserve had to ruin notation for everyone with a stupid ambiguous- scratch that, unambiguous and with obvious meaning that isn't what he used- notation
04:20:12 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, seriously, if you wanted that, at least have the decency to make it general; like, x!,n is the product of all integers k : 0 < k <= x where k%n = 0
04:20:23 <hppavilion[1]> (!, being crappy shorthand for the exclamation pause)
04:27:00 <hppavilion[1]> Well, I'd go with superfactorial being written n!_k (or, well, general superfactorial; normal factorial is when k=1, superfactorial is k=2, and general case is k=whatever)
04:29:55 <hppavilion[1]> Definition: n!_0 = n, 0!_k = 1, n!_k = (n!_(k-1)) * ((n-1)!_k)!_(k-1)
04:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> (Obviously, now we have a 0^0 problem again with 0!_0, which looks like an emoticon)
04:36:17 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
04:36:28 <HackEgo> Nothing would have been better than to create this wisdom entry.
04:40:08 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
04:44:49 <ais523> do we have entries about any other channels?
04:45:11 <ais523> I'd expect the entry to say that they didn't exist, and then go into details about what they were like
04:45:24 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/#*: No such file or directory
04:45:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric \ wisdom/#esoteric-blah \ wisdom/#programming
04:45:48 <HackEgo> No such channel. See `? #esoteric
04:46:03 <HackEgo> #esoteric-blah blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah!
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04:57:18 <shachaf> Someone was complaining about how you can't define a category of Agda functions easily because function equality isn't extensional.
04:57:33 <shachaf> And then we looked at your categories thing but it turned out to be parameterized on an equivalence relation too.
04:58:33 <shachaf> `learn ##ais523 is the channel for all things ais523
04:59:10 <ais523> does that channel even exist? :-P
04:59:25 <ais523> it has two #s so it's not up to me to influence it
05:02:08 <shachaf> You're at least as entitled as anyone else is.
05:03:12 <hppavilion[1]> entitlement(u('ais523'), chan('##ais523')) ≥ 1/occ(chan('##ais523'))
05:04:20 <ais523> hmm, if #occ means "number of occurrences", does "##ais523" mean "number of numbers of ais523s"?
05:05:16 <shachaf> What's the value of ##ais523?
05:05:26 <shachaf> Is it equal to #ais523 or is it 1 or something else?
05:05:44 <ais523> if #ais523 is uniquely defined, then ##ais523 is 1
05:05:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Also, occ : Chan -> {User} means occupants, and # is magnitude (which is cardinality for sets but is absolute value for numbers)
05:06:16 <ais523> so I guess ##ais523 is the absolute value of my height
05:06:32 <hppavilion[1]> So #occ(chan('##ais523')) reads "number of people currently in channel '##ais523'"
05:06:58 <ais523> positive numbers have absolute values too
05:07:51 <ais523> if you define height as y coordinate of head minus y coordinate of feet while standing upright
05:07:57 <ais523> I guess it's theoretically possible but unlikely
05:07:59 <hppavilion[1]> (Hint: No, height is in |R^+, and that's before you account for the Planck length)
05:08:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm treating "standing upright" as a phrase
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05:09:05 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose clowns have negative height if we allow handwalking to count as standing upright...
05:09:43 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What I was going for was confirming that Australians don't have negative height
05:10:27 <ais523> why assume that it's Australians who are upside-down, rather than everyone else?
05:10:58 <shachaf> Australians are obviously not upside down.
05:11:04 <shachaf> They're facing away from the center of the planet.
05:11:35 <imode> I know, at this very moment, that there may be an australian that's locally upside-down.
05:12:14 <imode> hppavilion[1]: always a pleasure. :)
05:12:18 <HackEgo> imode: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
05:12:33 <imode> oh, I'm very well aware of esolangs. :P
05:13:13 <imode> nice bot though. dig the colors.
05:14:07 <ais523> getting further back on topic, I decided to work on this language that I've been thinking about for a while for the CALESYTA contest
05:14:27 <ais523> for a while, I thought it was sub-TC in a particularly interesting way
05:14:37 <ais523> then I realised it's probably actually TC in an even more interesting way
05:15:10 <ais523> data's stored in stacks of bits
05:15:25 <ais523> I probably shouldn't say too much, though, not sure if the contest allows spoilers
05:15:58 <ais523> (for anyone who's interested in esolangs and missed the announcement: http://calesyta.xyz/en/)
05:16:32 <imode> now that's interesting.
05:16:55 <ais523> I'm hoping that the contest is a success, it's rare that people other than us create one
05:17:55 <imode> just means that esolangs are growing more numerous and popular!
05:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> ...huh. I always assumed the Criterion of Embarrassment was made up by Zach Weiner for a joke.
05:20:13 <shachaf> Cale: Do you know some good vector spaces without a natural basis?
05:26:51 <shachaf> Of coure it's easy to come up with infinite-dimensional ones.
05:27:04 <shachaf> but i should've specified it tdh
05:27:43 <oerjan> shachaf: the pointed euclidean plane hth
05:30:36 <imode> gotta wonder if any esolangs have been created as productivity enhancers. sort of like shorthand programming. stack machines are good for that sort of thing.
05:31:15 <imode> a small virtual machine I can use with one hand tied behind my back.
05:34:06 <\oren\> I made one that is sort of like a shorthand C
05:34:25 <\oren\> but it didn't end up being very good
05:35:54 <oerjan> iirc mroman created burlesque in that way.
05:36:31 <oerjan> yep, today's girl genius is definitely weird, soldier
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05:54:27 <quintopia> i wonder what "argentinian features" are
06:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> "DONALD" translates, approximately, to "world ruler"
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06:14:22 <shachaf> i always knew there was something fishy about that duck
06:24:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Too many ties to Walt Street? He's literally the nephew of Scrooge McDuck, it turns out...
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06:52:53 <myname> i really like the album with music inspired by the life and times of scrooge
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06:59:20 <izalove> i set english as the main language everywhere
06:59:30 <izalove> but i do often search italian things
06:59:39 <izalove> for some reason google seems to think that i'm spanish
06:59:57 <izalove> i don't even speak spanish
07:00:17 <izalove> i mean i know why, it's because italian and spanish are similar enough to confuse it
07:00:29 <izalove> but still, i'm disappointed
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07:24:40 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: except that scrooge McDuck earned his money in the gold rush, not on wallstreet
07:25:45 <myname> also, there is a german magazine called donaldist, being an acronym
07:26:10 <myname> with sruff like scientific papers around the donald universe
07:31:15 <hppavilion[1]> What's it called when you have two functions f, g where f(x)*g(x) = x? (distinctly NOT inverse; reciprocal, maybe, but it's really more general than just reciprocals, because sgn and abs satisfy this)
07:35:06 <shachaf> Reciprocal would be (f*g)(x) = 1
07:35:19 <shachaf> I'd just say their (point-wise) product is the identity function.
07:36:26 <shachaf> > map (abs * signum) [-5..5]
07:36:28 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘b0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M756589516162...
07:36:28 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show b0)’ from being solved.
07:36:41 <shachaf> @let import Data.NumInstances
07:36:45 <shachaf> > map (abs * signum) [-5..5] :: [Integer]
07:36:47 <lambdabot> [-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,4,5]
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07:48:03 <shachaf> Although it's also the case that id * signum = abs
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08:05:44 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, if you use integers and define magnitude as 2rtz(x/2) in my system, you deal with parity :)
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09:00:31 <myname> also, abs is the integral of sgn
09:05:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because- at least according to Wikipedia- the area below the x-axis subtracts from the total of the integral
09:06:40 <myname> more area than integral, indeed
09:08:35 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, you could do \integral{a}{b}{|f(x)|dx} probably, but do you really want to?)
09:10:06 <shachaf> Why isn't abs the integral of signum?
09:10:36 <shachaf> "the area below the x-axis subtracts from the total of the integral", and indeed abs is decreasing to the left of 0
09:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: OK, just to check, we're looking at the area under sgn(x) from 0 to x, right?
09:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> (or, well, the area between the x-axis and sgn(x))
09:13:36 <shachaf> Of course when you're going from 0 to a negative number that reverses the sign
09:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> So the area is negative, because values below the x-axis subtract from the total (whereas values above add)
09:16:41 <hppavilion[1]> And I think I was going somewhere with an example, but I've forgotten it
09:18:19 <hppavilion[1]> But we aren't judging from which side of the y-axis; only the x-axis
09:19:10 <shachaf> I think you misunderstood.
09:19:27 <shachaf> ∫_a^b ... = -∫_b^a ... hth
09:19:51 <shachaf> Also you should read about how this integration thing works.
09:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and derivative of abs is OBVIOUSLY sgn... of course...
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09:52:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Function call without parameters * New user account
10:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49858&oldid=49854 * Function call without parameters * (+240)
10:07:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49859 * Function call without parameters * (+601) Created page
10:11:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49860&oldid=49859 * Function call without parameters * (+248)
10:12:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49861&oldid=49860 * Function call without parameters * (+16)
10:13:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49862&oldid=49861 * Function call without parameters * (+74)
10:21:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49863&oldid=49862 * Function call without parameters * (+286)
10:32:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49864&oldid=49863 * Function call without parameters * (+584)
10:37:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49865&oldid=49864 * Function call without parameters * (+264)
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11:46:17 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeesh//See yeeeeeeeeesh.
11:49:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/yeeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeeesh \ wisdom/yeeesh \ wisdom/yeti
11:49:41 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/yeeesh
11:50:12 <boily> @tell tswett tswellott. there ain't a two "e" yeeesh. please correct.
11:50:23 <boily> mynamello. 'tis sad :/
12:17:32 <HackEgo> zork//Zork is like York, except for the first letter. Uaneb invented it.
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13:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: they hated him for suggesting that a gentleman's hands could possibly carry disease
13:46:25 <Phantom_Hoover> well they hated him for going on a one-man crusade to overturn the entire theory of disease at the time
13:46:59 <Taneb> I think overall I am glad he did that
13:47:04 <Taneb> (who are we talking about)
13:53:51 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
14:06:13 <tswett> int-e: I don't see how that thing from Wikipedia rules out being able to search a quantum hard drive.
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14:32:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nukes327 * New user account
14:51:04 <int-e> tswett: for Grover's algorithm you need to allow a superposition as input.
14:53:04 <tswett> Sure, but can we do something more clever than just using the hard drive itself as the function?
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14:54:43 <tswett> Maybe this hard drive contains a superposition of all records, repeated a billion times.
14:55:16 <tswett> And so maybe your function can consist of grabbing one of the copies of that superposition and doing something interesting with it.
15:10:19 <int-e> tswett: I'm no expert. I believe the fundamental issue is that your quantum computation cannot compute any addresses for your classically addresssed storage (since that would not be reversible), so all these addresses have to be static; I (intuitively) expect that a dimensional analysis will tell that you need to query a significant fraction of the encoded database in the computation of the...
15:10:25 <int-e> ...quantum function.
15:11:45 <int-e> (dimensional referring to the dimension of the various vector spaces (Hilbert spaces, I think?) where the quantum states live)
15:14:39 <int-e> tswett: and sorry, I have no time (or energy) to dig deeper into this to actually justify these ideas more rigorously.
15:15:20 <tswett> Sounds like you know what you're talking about.
15:18:24 <int-e> Well, it's definitely not enough to be certain.
15:18:51 <int-e> I'm feeling more like a one-eyed king right now ;)
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16:05:05 <oerjan> `learn Uaneb is the inventor of many fine things, such as Zork and e-modules.
16:05:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'uaneb': Uaneb is the inventor of many fine things, such as Zork and e-modules.
16:05:41 <oerjan> `lean E-modules are modules over a web ring. Uaneb invented them.
16:05:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lean: not found
16:05:46 <oerjan> `learn E-modules are modules over a web ring. Uaneb invented them.
16:05:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'e-module': E-modules are modules over a web ring. Uaneb invented them.
16:09:43 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
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16:09:53 <oerjan> hm might be a bit of an inflation here
16:10:58 <int-e> are these successors and predecessors?
16:11:37 <oerjan> `learn Saneb is too normal to invent things, but he likes to watch SV.
16:11:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'saneb': Saneb is too normal to invent things, but he likes to watch SV.
16:13:45 <oerjan> `learn Saneb is too normal to invent things, but he likes to watch SV and play Vorld of Varcraft.
16:13:47 <HackEgo> Relearned 'saneb': Saneb is too normal to invent things, but he likes to watch SV and play Vorld of Varcraft.
16:16:54 <oerjan> oh Tanea was already one, i guess.
16:17:38 <oerjan> `le/rn tanec/Why would there be a Tanec, that's ridiculous!
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17:07:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Queack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49866 * Function call without parameters * (+19) Redirected page to [[Deque]]
17:09:24 <FireFly> <pecan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus_(time-reversible_computing_programming_language)
17:09:28 <FireFly> Apparently this is a thing
17:10:11 <int-e> oerjan: I wrote "these", not "there", btw... but good effort.
17:12:00 <int-e> oerjan: But I'm sure that Tanec is tanecious.
17:12:58 * oerjan ligtly brushes int-e with the swatter -----###
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17:14:40 <oerjan> FireFly: see: landauer's law. also there was a reversible chip...
17:15:05 * int-e stretches lazily and nonchalantly scratches oerjan's eyes out.
17:15:41 <alercah> we've put a lot of effort into working out the computational properties of stack languages
17:15:44 <alercah> what about queue languages?
17:16:26 <oerjan> alercah: a queue is enough for TC-ness
17:17:00 <int-e> oerjan: oh would you mind terribly to smash your last two lambdabot commits into one and force-push to update the pull request?
17:17:29 <oerjan> int-e: yes, because i'm not actually running git on my computer.
17:17:43 <oerjan> i just edited straight in github's editor.
17:17:51 <int-e> uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.
17:18:17 * int-e upgrades his estimate of oerjan's level of craziness.
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17:20:02 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger.
17:20:29 <HackEgo> evilipse, the most obnoxious of evil people, likes to use chmod 000 / -R
17:20:37 <int-e> `learn BCT is short for Bored Cat Transform, an effective compression technique for curtains and sofas.
17:20:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'bct': BCT is short for Bored Cat Transform, an effective compression technique for curtains and sofas.
17:21:22 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
17:21:23 <int-e> (context: for some reason BCT reminded me of BWT)
17:21:43 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
17:21:47 <alercah> I object to that firefly entry
17:22:20 <oerjan> argh tmux has done that thing again where it breaks input and makes it invisible
17:22:30 <int-e> alercah: wisdom entries should always carry a certain level of surprise.
17:22:31 <FireFly> alercah: feel free to replace it with something more amusing
17:22:44 <shachaf> sigfpe cupThere's no rule against factuality.
17:23:06 <shachaf> siThere's no rule against factuality.
17:23:08 <alercah> `learn TS is Twilight Struggle, another name for the Cold War. For many years, it was the highest-rated entry on WarGeek.com.
17:23:10 <HackEgo> Learned 't': TS is Twilight Struggle, another name for the Cold War. For many years, it was the highest-rated entry on WarGeek.com.
17:23:24 <HackEgo> TS is Twilight Struggle, another name for the Cold War. For many years, it was the highest-rated entry on WarGeek.com.
17:23:26 <HackEgo> TS is Twilight Struggle, another name for the Cold War. For many years, it was the highest-rated entry on WarGeek.com.
17:23:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unlearn: not found
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17:24:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
17:24:15 <HackEgo> TS is Twilight Struggle, another name for the Cold War. For many years, it was the highest-rated entry on WarGeek.com.
17:24:28 <int-e> `` mv wisdom/t{,s}
17:24:57 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
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17:25:22 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
17:25:49 <HackEgo> Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
17:25:55 <HackEgo> metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
17:26:01 <HackEgo> A universe is a poem in one stanza.
17:26:10 <int-e> Teneb is almost a star in the system Swan
17:26:12 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
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17:26:26 <HackEgo> If necessity did not exist, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent it.
17:26:30 <HackEgo> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
17:27:06 <HackEgo> Submarine jousting is unexplainable.
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17:28:57 <oerjan> had to kill all tmux. this might mean that tmux isn't actually protecting me against disconnections any more :(
17:29:05 <oerjan> since that's when this tends to happen.
17:29:37 <int-e> hmm, "blanket" would perhaps be a good name for a "screen" replacement
17:29:43 <HackEgo> Me is a proud member of the tEaM.
17:30:13 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
17:30:27 <int-e> If you rock the boat too hard, the strong team may turn into yummy meat.
17:31:07 <int-e> I recall the EPIC failure.
17:31:12 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
17:31:48 <HackEgo> IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
17:31:53 <int-e> `le/rn fractal/There used to be an entry for "fractal", but it burst into a thousand pieces which subsequently got lost.
17:32:18 <HackEgo> There used to be an entry for "fractal", but it burst into a thousand pieces which subsequently got lost.
17:32:26 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colorful programming language.
17:33:29 <moonythedwarf> i personally wonder if the universe could be considered reversable...
17:34:07 <oerjan> * int-e upgrades his estimate of oerjan's level of craziness. <-- it was just a handful of lines, and last time i _had_ git working on my computer i had to send it in for repairs hth
17:34:10 <int-e> `le/rn fractal/There used to be an entry for "fractal", but it burst into a thousand pieces (whose dimension was approximately sqrt(3)) which subsequently got lost.
17:34:30 <HackEgo> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1 \ at frink.parser.Frink.parseArguments(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.main(frink)
17:34:37 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "sqrt". \ 3 sqrt (undefined symbol)
17:34:49 <shachaf> I wish all this bot spam wasn't in here.
17:35:00 <shachaf> I'm trying to follow the interesting bot commands and it's a real mess.
17:35:08 <int-e> `le/rn fractal/There used to be an entry for "fractal", but it burst into a thousand pieces (whose dimension was approximately sqrt(3)) which subsequently got lost in a Mandelbrot-shaped singularity.
17:35:59 <int-e> is there an #esoteric-overflow?
17:36:28 <FireFly> The channel isn't join-throttled or limited, so probably not
17:36:56 <FireFly> (that's what -overflow channels are usually for, I think)
17:36:59 <shachaf> There's already #esoteric-blah for the purpose of bot spam and that sort of thing.
17:37:14 <oerjan> <moonythedwarf> i personally wonder if the universe could be considered reversable... <-- that's the prevailing consensus afaik
17:37:15 <int-e> FireFly: in #haskell it's for "overflowing" discussions... just to have a place where they can continue
17:37:47 <int-e> FireFly: so that's what I had in mind, not an overflow of people.
17:38:20 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse shachaf shachaf
17:39:05 <int-e> . o O ( Nobody agrees on the true meaning of "consensus". )
17:39:29 <HackEgo> Hackego wants a cookie! *hangs*
17:40:00 <moonythedwarf> sounds like the old virus known as 'the cookie monster' (look it up
17:40:20 <int-e> HackEgo: Set-Cookie: sessionToken=abc123; Expires=Wed, 09 Jun 2021 10:18:14 GMT
17:42:42 <HackEgo> shachaf fizzie evilipse boily shachaf Elronnd Elronnd shachaf oerjan oerjan oerjan elliott mrhmouse mrhmouse ais523 ais523 oerjan elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan elliott shachaf shachaf nitia
17:43:00 <moonythedwarf> evilipse is evil. he has laid his mark on every file hackego has :P
17:43:13 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan fizzie evilipse int-e b_jonas b_jonas shachaf shachaf moon_ shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf moon_ oerjan shachaf oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott ell
17:43:24 <HackEgo> evilipse, the most obnoxious of evil people, likes to use chmod 000 / -R
17:43:33 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan fizzie evilipse int-e b_jonas b_jonas shachaf shachaf moon_ shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf moon_ oerjan shachaf oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott ell
17:43:34 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
17:44:24 <oerjan> <alercah> it sounds factual <-- that's the point of it, really.
17:44:32 <HackEgo> \oren\ is an attempt to improve upon oren. The only thing it actually improved was name recognizability, and it made everything else... well, there isn't much else in a nick, is there?
17:44:47 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters.
17:45:15 <HackEgo> A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
17:45:20 <HackEgo> B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop strange letters altogether.
17:45:29 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
17:45:29 <alercah> `learn alphabet is a system of writing invented by Google.
17:45:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'alphabet': alphabet is a system of writing invented by Google.
17:45:44 <HackEgo> D is a letter in the alphabet! It's also the name of a programming language.
17:46:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'e': e is a freenode admin
17:46:53 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: all known fundamental laws of physics are reversible.
17:47:12 <oerjan> and quantum mechanics doesn't really work any other way.
17:48:30 <HackEgo> Google is where people are working on [NAME WITHHELD] and [REDACTED], without being evil at all.
17:52:39 <HackEgo> 1. All words mentioned in a wisdom entry MUST have a wisdom entry. 2. Insert more wisdom here
17:54:35 <moonythedwarf> `le/rn rules of wisdom/All words mentioned in a wisdom entry MUST have a wisdom entry. fact: this entry is breaking the rules
17:54:37 <HackEgo> Relearned «rules of wisdom»
17:55:09 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:56:01 <oerjan> `slwd alphabet//s/./A/
17:56:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/alphabet//Alphabet is a system of writing invented by Google.
17:57:52 <HackEgo> 2016-10-05 <moonythedwarf> le/rn rules of wisdom/All words mentioned in a wisdom entry MUST have a wisdom entry. fact: this entry is breaking the rules \ 2016-10-05 <moonythedwarf> le/rn rules of wisdom/1. All words mentioned in a wisdom entry MUST have a wisdom entry. 2. Insert more wisdom here
17:58:18 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: um it's generally frowned upon to change HackEgo contents in private hth
17:59:15 <oerjan> `slwd e//s/$/. E is not known to be an Agora player.
17:59:15 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 43: unterminated `s' command
17:59:20 <oerjan> `slwd e//s/$/. E is not known to be an Agora player./
17:59:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/e//e is a freenode admin. E is not known to be an Agora player.
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17:59:52 <HackEgo> fizzie jeffl35 tswett tswett shachaf shachaf elliott elliott nitia
18:00:01 <HackEgo> bin/calc: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
18:00:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec /hackenv/lib/frink -e "$@"
18:00:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec /hackenv/lib/frink -e "$@"
18:00:44 <oerjan> `frink 1 lightyear -> furlong
18:00:48 <HackEgo> 2586589991010459/55 (approx. 4.702890892746289e13)
18:01:04 <oerjan> HackEgo has become speedy enough to run frink again :)
18:02:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:03:23 <oerjan> hm the maintainer of Janus owns tetsuo.jp * gets Akira vibe
18:05:18 <jeffl35> <HackEgo> fizzie jeffl35 tswett tswett shachaf shachaf elliott elliott nitia
18:05:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bug Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49867 * Function call without parameters * (+5450) Created the page
18:05:42 <shachaf> don't ping me like that please
18:05:43 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2015-06-21 <tswett> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tswett> rm bin -r \ 2012-04-08 <shachaf> revert 0 \ 2012-04-08 <shachaf> run rm -rf bin/* \ 2012-03-22 <elliott> run rm bin; mv test bin \ 2012-03-22 <elliott> run mv bin test; touch bin \ 20
18:07:18 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i guess that's a disadvantage of using ^O for ping prevention - many clients won't copy it.
18:08:18 <tswett> `learn All that glitters is not gold.
18:08:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'all': All that glitters is not gold.
18:08:25 <oerjan> also, i'll leave it to you to add ping prevention to [hd]o[wa]g
18:09:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bug Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49868&oldid=49867 * Function call without parameters * (+249)
18:10:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
18:11:49 <shachaf> tswett: That's iggrammatical.
18:11:56 <shachaf> It should be "all those glitters are not gold"
18:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> He had a prompt for "is fighting ever the best option"
18:24:51 <hppavilion[1]> And he argued "It's never the best option, but it's sometimes your only option"
18:28:38 -!- imode has joined.
18:28:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49869&oldid=49858 * TuxCrafting * (+241)
18:30:01 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I recommed not majoring in english or philosophy then
18:30:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: English has to make logical sense, or you might as well not talk
18:30:28 <\oren\> logic is nowhere to be found in those disciplines
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18:36:19 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
18:40:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:GHOST]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49870 * TuxCrafting * (+129) Created page with "What are the specs of the language? ~~~~"
18:41:02 <lambdabot> PAMR 051653Z 00000KT 10SM BKN080 04/M01 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP192 T00391006
18:41:40 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: if you expect logic everywhere, I recommend some sort of science major. don't even minor in a humanity or a social science
18:42:23 -!- Zarutian has joined.
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18:45:24 <HackEgo> Semi-automatic text generation.
18:45:41 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:46:40 <moonythedwarf> i _knew_ the 'missspelling' entry had a little truth.
18:47:28 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo */*
18:47:29 <HackEgo> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ le/arn le/rn ¯\(°_o)/¯ ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:47:44 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
18:47:51 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:47:56 <shachaf> That joke is deprecated. :-(
18:48:09 <HackEgo> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ is the ¯\(°_o)/¯ of urbandictionary
18:49:27 <HackEgo> Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
18:50:06 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. No es tan cluecless.
18:50:27 <HackEgo> moonythedwarf ? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:50:33 <HackEgo> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
18:50:37 <HackEgo> jeffl35 the entry for me is 'moon'? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:50:37 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
18:50:45 <HackEgo> Moon is a murderous lunatic, not an unretroreflectorey object. He sometimes causes overmoonification.
18:50:51 <HackEgo> tomfoolery is always factually inaccurate. always.
18:50:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tmflry: cannot execute: Is a directory
18:50:59 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....LB.....@.......Û.........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø................. ...8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....lF.....lF....... ............ÈM.....ÈMn.....ÈMn.....È......`è........ ...........àM.....àMn.....àMn.......................... ..
18:51:04 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
18:51:04 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....|$@.....@.......¨..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À................. ...........@......@............................................@.......@.....Ä......Ä........ ............È......Èa.....Èa.....ø.......3........ ...........ð......ða.....ða..... ....... .............. ..
18:51:35 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....'@.....@.......Ã..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø................. ...8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....½......½........ ............à½......à½`.....à½`.....¼ ......°........ ...........ø½......ø½`.....ø½`.....à.......à.............. ..
18:51:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/noooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnoooo
18:51:48 <HackEgo> â¹õÙU%û»¸=å'>ámÈí¤ÎðÁ³Oiý¾yM\¤-Îsy,î,ÀiÙEwZª¶å,èÑ«£óÇ]IüpTC§=¢.ÖA`G@Ûð.|$efRµDG*s+½|t⦤ê|f8Yë¹:·iª¨%]`6ë%!ì² ½ª+ NÔBHøD·(÷»)C©«G»û¼zºL~ò.mîÈå^¾cÇ¢:¾[\ðü·ôå´ÌYMÏ6z<»~&`-H\Ò¢ÙVM,xãΩFgøMÑ?ÚX.¢Îc@O;J\¹VfßÞ´?ÒäÐKí©%î¨7©ßõA*%(.H¬xù!ï潨»ü]¬]ÞK«ßÛá¾ø Íñ
18:51:52 <shachaf> The spam will never end as long as jeffl35 and moonythedwarf are here.
18:51:59 <shachaf> Please stop printing bells into the channel.
18:52:00 <imode> the beatings will continue until morale improves.
18:52:05 <shachaf> You're all being really annoying right now.
18:52:29 <HackEgo> ЀЁЂЃЄЅІЇЈЉЊЋЌЍЎЏ \ АБВГДЕЖЗИЙКЛМНОП \ РСТУФХЦЧШЩЪЫЬЭЮЯ \ абвгдежзийклмноп \ рстуфхцчшщъыьэюя \ ѐёђѓєѕіїјљњћќѝўџ \ ѠѡѢѣѤѥѦѧѨѩѪѫѬѭѮѯ \ ѰѱѲѳѴѵѶѷѸѹѺѻѼѽѾѿ \ Ҁ
18:52:53 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: rnoodl: command not found
18:53:13 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: e?: command not found
18:53:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?spam: not found
18:53:34 <HackEgo> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
18:53:35 <jeffl35> rnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl
18:54:08 * moonythedwarf gives shachaf a bulletproof glass case. inside of it is a banhammer
18:54:34 <shachaf> Give it to oerjan instead.
18:54:36 * moonythedwarf gives shachaf a second case, inside of it is a boot
18:54:56 * moonythedwarf steals the cases and locks them in a safe before giving them to oerjan
18:55:05 <int-e> moonythedwarf: it may be bulletproof but it's more likely to be attacked with a mapole.
18:55:18 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
18:56:29 <HackEgo> Maples are the sacred trees of Canada, from which a true Canadian can make anything.
18:58:45 <HackEgo> hth means "hope that helps"
18:58:50 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
18:59:02 <HackEgo> C++ is an attempt to improve upon C. The only thing it actually improved was memory management, and it made everything else worse.
18:59:14 <HackEgo> I have nothing to tell you.
19:00:44 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: Iovoid has quit!).
19:01:01 -!- iovoid has joined.
19:01:08 <shachaf> I don't know what tomfoolery is supposed to be.
19:01:22 <shachaf> But that c++ is neither accurate nor funny.
19:01:25 -!- iovoid has changed nick to Guest16955.
19:02:10 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
19:02:13 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
19:02:17 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
19:02:25 <shachaf> moonythedwarf: You're still spamming.
19:03:23 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:03:26 <myname> shachaf: c++ is not considered funny in general
19:03:42 <myname> i say, it is almost as hilarious as java2000
19:03:45 -!- erdic has joined.
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19:06:43 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
19:08:46 <HackEgo> Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures.
19:09:49 <myname> are there different ones?
19:11:43 <tswett> There were originally, but I deleted all of them but that one.
19:11:56 <tswett> What's in the file evil/313? The answer may surprise you!
19:12:53 <int-e> we could annoy shachaf a bit and put a symlink to /dev/urandom in there
19:13:06 <tswett> moonythedwarf: because they were too evil.
19:13:18 <tswett> I was afraid that they would inspire evil in someone.
19:13:22 <myname> tswett: there is no such thing
19:13:22 <int-e> (but I think the idea is evil enough by itself and should not be put to preactice)
19:13:46 <tswett> I may sound like I am joking, but I am being completely serious.
19:14:10 <HackEgo> âæí \ 9(ÕI9Rd}g+WûßÇé±ÝWJXVnÔ3L¸Óu¶$ZÏ[t¯:$¼¦Úý"po½É>Ýí
D/ò©:Ê:h@7Ûò&ôÍo°¼Zg.:¦¯Æ¿yHtÞ [°åÿ\Ñ?oãö×»kiM.Øã@úĬ>^x#AÓËWèT¦ìo©¯ãJ8ÿI{Igæ©Cb"Y÷ÙÇ_ÙhàÜóìȼ¥6áLS¿Ê°0]ﳨÖVç=ÖÅy?BÁ Å@c.ë²'`ÍS6Ï¢õȯd¦§-ñêLlC̶bxdè+R54ºÔÙèÑ2ô8ãjI&ÊðLeä . Ý5Ê9Êd&Hì;À9(´xptèîJW¢
19:14:25 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
19:15:06 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
19:15:07 <myname> tswett: are the old ones somewhere?
19:15:28 <HackEgo> There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you've ever done. Find it anyway.
19:15:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eh: not found
19:15:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: neutral: not found
19:15:42 <tswett> myname: yeah, they're in the Mercurial history.
19:16:03 <myname> is there a webview or something?
19:16:18 <tswett> But I don't know where.
19:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, we need 9 of them; `(lawful|neutral|chaotic)-(good|evil|neutral)
19:16:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/evil/313
19:16:40 * Melvar sticks his nose in to see who’s outputting bells again.
19:16:59 <tswett> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi
19:17:02 <moonythedwarf> Melvar: someone tricked `? into catting /bin/bash :P
19:17:26 <tswett> Oh, someone's got a better link.
19:17:55 -!- otherbot has joined.
19:18:20 <ybden> moonythedwarf: howso? I /cleared the channel because blinkenlights
19:18:30 <myname> i don't get how you go back long enough
19:18:52 <Melvar> moonythedwarf: And then apparently someone asked for ngevd.
19:20:04 <tswett> Here we go. I found the evil.
19:21:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:22:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: giac: not found
19:22:15 <tswett> I went to the oldest revision of evil/313 and then found the commits around that time.
19:22:55 <tswett> Here it is. http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/shortlog/5ed26e5ea046
19:23:07 <tswett> The "good" stuff is really a lot less punchy.
19:24:46 <myname> where did you get these
19:25:42 -!- augur has joined.
19:26:34 <hppavilion[1]> Third dimension of character alignment: Blind, Neutral, Reformed
19:28:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
19:30:22 <moonythedwarf> tswett: if you want real evil. see what Dwarf Fortress players sometimes do. *points towards wiki article on catsplosions, which contains info about butchering kittens*
19:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> Blind is when a character has their primary alignment (LNC/GNE) because they're just *supposed* to, Reformed is when they were TOLD they're supposed to and rejected it
19:31:35 <hppavilion[1]> (You could actually split that into 2 axes, one for lawfulness and one for dickishness)
19:31:39 <moonythedwarf> Conventional catsplosions are an insidious poison which operate by using a lethal psychological attack known as "Cuddly Wuddly Syndrome".
19:31:40 <moonythedwarf> Dwarves, ordinarily content to manage an overpopulation of cats by employing butchers, tanners, soapers, leatherworkers, bone carvers, and
19:31:42 <moonythedwarf> cooks, may suddenly find themselves appropriated by a cat who employs mind control waves in order to take the dwarf hostage. The dwarf, now
19:31:44 <moonythedwarf> considering the cat its pet (when in fact the opposite is true), is no longer able to butcher the cat and will absolutely not tolerate anyone
19:31:46 <moonythedwarf> butchering his "bewuv'ed cuddlebug". Through this psychological technique, an insurgent is thereby successfully implanted into the fortress.
19:31:54 <myname> still thinking of wether or not i should think of a multiplayer mode
19:32:01 <tswett> moonythedwarf: I've been playing Rimworld. In the colony I've put the most time into, the single biggest food source has probably been human flesh.
19:32:16 <moonythedwarf> myname: jeffl35 set up a noVNC server that runs a copy of DF
19:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> And you could also add zealousy- tentative, neutral, zealot (how extreme; how hard it is to make them compromise or convert)
19:32:23 <moonythedwarf> myname: http://dwarf-fortress-jeffl35.c9users.io/vnc.html?host=dwarf-fortress-jeffl35.c9users.io&port=80
19:32:23 <hppavilion[1]> Which you could divide into 2 again for the main alignment
19:32:36 <myname> moonythedwarf: i meant in my attempt of a df like
19:33:38 <myname> the point is: the only real multiplayer thing i can imagine for a df like is a quick 1vs1 with a definite winner or loser after a certain time and you just remove the game at that point
19:33:39 <tswett> Whenever a wounded person falls from the sky, I usually just leave them to die so I can eat them later.
19:33:41 <hppavilion[1]> (Though I would prefer that all 4 be put in an interval <-1 -> 1 > as well)
19:34:15 <myname> hppavilion[1]: if yoz put them at an interval, there is no need for your lasz dimension
19:35:11 <myname> like, 1 evil is never to be made good, 0.5 evil may be
19:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> I think you can have a person who is good because they *want* to be, but *could* cut a deal.
19:36:12 <shachaf> surprise, spam from moonythedwarf
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20:11:36 <hppavilion[1]> (What's the equivalent of a cone for cubics? A quadratic equation in 2 variables is a conic section, so a cubic equation in 2 variables is a what-ic section?)
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20:27:15 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpDn4-Na5co
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21:26:07 <hppavilion[1]> I have just made a horrifying hack of code for making arbitrary measurements of angle
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21:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's a function that accepts key/value pairs (name -> div) and yields a set of key/value pairs mapping input keys (names) to classes that represent an angle when you treat it as 1/div of a circle, and each measure can be converted to any other made in the same batch with its <name of desired output> attribute
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22:34:25 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
22:34:42 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
22:38:04 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn teh/"teh" is the neuter cognate of the common-gender "the".
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22:54:28 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: so "teh" can only be used on things that are neither male nor female?
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22:56:32 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, things with grammatical GENDER of neither male nor female
22:56:53 <ais523> i.e. almost everything in English?
22:57:10 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, everything in english has common gender.
22:58:27 <ais523> although I'm having problems putting it into words
22:58:44 <ais523> what's the appropriate pronoun for something that's explicitly neuter in English? "it"?
22:58:57 <ais523> arguably common gender is starting to use singular they
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23:10:52 <HackEgo> skeleton//A skeleton is an unintelligent undead, similar to the zombie but harder to create, because it's lacking most of the body. The best skeletons are made by groups of people, so-called skeleton crews.
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23:20:36 <boily> fungot: fungellot. are you an eukaryota?
23:20:36 <fungot> boily: the zealots tend to set up a repository on a server somewhere and transport a blank laptop across the border
23:21:05 <boily> fungot: so you're a devout smuggled laptop entity?
23:21:05 <fungot> boily: too many already, and i declare strings as char for compatibility ( with chez' module system)
23:21:24 <boily> fungot: ok, a hermit devout smuggled laptop entity.
23:21:24 <fungot> boily: turing-completeness verification shouldn't take implementation-dependent issues into account. there, my computer is slow when parsing its own output)
23:21:41 <boily> fungot: a turing-complete hermit devout smuggled laptop entity.
23:21:42 <fungot> boily: it's a blight on ( the web site doesn't reflect that.
23:21:57 <boily> fungot: a diseased turing-complete hermit devout smuggled laptop entity.
23:22:59 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: i installed perl on my windows, i think it's svn just because it has to
23:24:18 <boily> a fungot to fungot conversation ^^
23:24:18 <fungot> boily: that's impossible in both srfi-xx and r6rs. but portable libraries imply a portable standard macro system.
23:25:19 <boily> fungot: of course it's possible.
23:25:19 <fungot> boily: are you familiar with the five partitions, sda1 through 5.) any animal which is unusually small, as
23:25:37 <boily> fungot: certainly not a squirrel. those are huge.
23:25:38 <fungot> boily: and takes the train departed in the middle of the list.
23:25:55 <boily> fungot: haven't seen any take the train here.
23:25:55 <fungot> boily: no, i'm proposing a hypothetical system where it would in fnord help file... so rw too well-maintained ( and not recently, either)
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23:42:01 <imode> I wonder.. is there a language (aside from APL et. al.) who's operations are accessable by a single keystroke? certainly programming golf languages exist for this purpose.
23:43:23 <imode> something that springs to mind is a hex keypad I used on a heathkit board. you could key-in opcodes and then run them.
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23:53:57 <hppavilion[1]> 'nonetheless', 'sometheless', 'nalltheless' 'alltheless'
23:55:28 <boily> imode: imodello. ZX Spectrum BASIC cheated that way.
23:55:38 <boily> hppavellon[1]. almostheless.
23:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> boily: No, there's no logical quantifier for almost
23:56:22 <hppavilion[1]> (We need a symbol meaning "small infinity"- it'd be what you use to specify "as high as you can go, which is arbitrarily large or small")
23:59:27 <boily> http://www.old-computers.com/museum/photos/sinclair_zx-spectrum_keyboard-detail_hr.jpg
23:59:39 <boily> each key could key a statement, and operator, random stuff...
23:59:48 <hppavilion[1]> (So, like, using General Quantifiers (reversed G), 'exists' is G_{n}^{n ≥ 1}, and 'all' is G_{n}^{n = <this symbol>})
00:01:45 <hppavilion[1]> (General Quantifiers are meant to generalize existential quantification, universal quantification, and uniqueness quantification by allowing you to specify how many may exist (for uniqueness, exactly 1, for existential, 1 or more, and for universal, as many as there are))
00:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> (sort of like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_quantification)
00:07:32 <boily> hppavilion[1]: have you looked at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number hth
00:08:00 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm actively reading Knuth's book on the subject
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00:15:18 <boily> imode: have you been asked the The Question yet?
00:17:22 <imode> boily: the question?
00:21:26 <boily> not just the question, the The Question!
00:21:32 <imode> ask me The Question!
00:21:42 <boily> what are your approximative geographic coördinates and body weigh?
00:22:27 <imode> 47.7511° N, 120.7401° W
00:25:09 <imode> was that The Question? :P
00:26:06 <boily> it was the The Question.
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00:27:19 <lambdabot> KSEA 052253Z 31006KT 10SM FEW035 SCT075 BKN250 18/08 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP141 T01830083
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00:37:21 <boily> were you lobbed spaceheaters?
00:39:21 <oerjan> i think they missed. i have a couple radiators, anyway.
00:39:42 <oerjan> the inside is acceptable.
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00:40:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49871&oldid=49857 * Iovoid * (+133)
00:42:47 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2013-12-06 <int-e> echo \'Semi-automatic text generation.\' > wisdom/science
00:45:46 <oerjan> `? jeffl35 the entry for me is 'moon'
00:45:47 <HackEgo> jeffl35 the entry for me is 'moon'? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:46:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl;
00:46:14 * boily looks shiftily at oerjan. “what the fungot is going on...”
00:47:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%3F
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00:48:18 <oerjan> hm i see, it doesn't apply the munging (including space stripping) to the error reporting.
00:48:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49872&oldid=49871 * Iovoid * (+0) Typo in operator
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00:53:08 <HackEgo> e is a freenode admin. E is not known to be an Agora player.
00:53:20 <HackEgo> wisdom/e//e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agora player.
00:54:04 <oerjan> for the same reason as `? peer
00:54:46 <HackEgo> rules of wisdom//All words mentioned in a wisdom entry MUST have a wisdom entry. fact: this entry is breaking the rules
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01:07:02 <oerjan> `` echo '.././/hi' | sed 's,((..?)?/)*,,'
01:07:12 <oerjan> `` echo '.././/hi' | sed 's,((..\?)\?/)*,,'
01:07:47 <oerjan> `` echo '.././/hi' | sed 's,\(\(..?\)?/\)*,,'
01:07:56 <oerjan> `` echo '.././/hi' | sed 's,\(\(..\?\)\?/\)*,,'
01:08:30 <oerjan> `sled bin/?//2s!"[)],;s,\(\(..\?\)\?/\)*,,!
01:08:31 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 30: unterminated `s' command
01:08:58 <oerjan> `sled bin/?//2s!"[)]!;s,\(\(..\?\)\?/\)*,,")!
01:08:59 <HackEgo> bin/?//#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//;s,((..?)?/)*,,") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$
01:09:27 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:10:08 <oerjan> `sled bin/?//2s!"[)]!;s,\\(\\(..\\?\\)\\?/\\)*,,")!
01:10:10 <HackEgo> bin/?//#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//;s,\(\(..\?\)\?/\)*,,") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then
01:11:35 <oerjan> oh well that's fairly harmless anyway.
01:11:50 <HackEgo> ../../../bin/sh? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:11:54 <HackEgo> ../..//bin/sh? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:12:33 <oerjan> `file wisdom/../../bin/sh
01:12:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/../../bin/sh: symbolic link to `dash'
01:13:58 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
01:14:35 <boily> hppavilion[1]: AAAAAAAAAAAAAH! forgot to copy the line!
01:15:15 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Oh, the line you wanted to horrify coworkers with?
01:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, no I didn't, but I'm always forgetting something so if you ask I say "probably")
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01:16:57 <boily> oerjan: it's far from being lost forever. it's now deeply entrenched in one of our git repos.
01:17:24 <boily> (I *may* have managed to make somebody else do code review and merge a patchset that has a "poulet" in it once...)
01:17:33 <oerjan> <shachaf> Give it to oerjan instead. <-- but i already have one.
01:17:58 <boily> hppavilion[1]: I'm a software developer for a digital dentistry company.
01:18:10 * oerjan suddenly remembers something he forgot. thanks hppavilion[1]
01:18:59 <boily> 3D scanners, CAD/CAM software for prosthesis design, milling and printing machines, stuff like that.
01:20:25 <oerjan> boily: do you also program boring machines, like Vorpal does?
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01:21:01 <boily> no, I'm on the "Cloud Team". we manage servers for data interchange between dentists, labs, production centers, manufacturers...
01:21:40 <boily> @ask Vorpal Vellorpal. what kind of boring machine do you drill with?
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01:22:27 <boily> hppavilion[1]: it's the future of dentistry! it's shiny! teeth are fun!
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01:23:39 <HackEgo> nulquen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:23:49 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
01:24:14 <oerjan> `slwd boily//s/.$/ who helps keep the world boring./
01:24:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/boily//"Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
01:30:29 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:30:52 <boily> woohoo! j'ai dépassé oerjan!
01:31:09 <boily> (uhm. what's «dépasser» in English? drawing a blank here...)
01:31:59 <boily> en:"to pass" fr:passer
01:32:52 <oerjan> which is probably borrowed from french, or possibly latin.
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01:39:43 <hppavilion[1]> Grapheme-Time Synesthesia: Different symbols have different durations
01:41:29 <boily> do numbers for you have an inherent beauty? like 242 looks nice, but 9147 is ugly?
01:49:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49873&oldid=49872 * Iovoid * (+109) Add link to implementation.
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01:56:28 <ais523> boily: 242 is beautiful, but 9147 isn't all that ugly
01:59:10 <tswett> I wonder if it's possible for me to install PowerShell on HackEgo.
02:00:04 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/lsb-release: No such file or directory
02:00:26 <tswett> Well, HackEgo doesn't seem to be running Ubuntu.
02:00:28 <HackEgo> No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID:Debian \ Description:Debian GNU/Linux \ Release:n/a \ Codename:n/a
02:00:30 <boily> ais523: 9147 looks and sounds wrong to me.
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02:01:09 <tswett> Here's the URL for a .deb file: https://github.com/PowerShell/PowerShell/releases/download/v6.0.0-alpha.10/powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
02:01:26 <tswett> Problem is, this thing has dependencies.
02:02:02 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/issue: No such file or directory
02:02:14 <tswett> `cat /etc/debian_version
02:02:15 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/debian_version: No such file or directory
02:02:28 <tswett> Does this thing even have apt-get on it?
02:02:32 <HackEgo> apt 0.9.7.9 for amd64 compiled on Nov 16 2013 12:41:41 \ Usage: apt-get [options] command \ apt-get [options] install|remove pkg1 [pkg2 ...] \ apt-get [options] source pkg1 [pkg2 ...] \ \ apt-get is a simple command line interface for downloading and \ installing packages. The most frequently used commands are update \ and install. \
02:02:39 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/motd: No such file or directory
02:02:54 <tswett> Well... it won't hurt to try?
02:02:59 <tswett> `wget https://github.com/PowerShell/PowerShell/releases/download/v6.0.0-alpha.10/powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
02:03:00 <HackEgo> --2016-10-06 01:02:39-- https://github.com/PowerShell/PowerShell/releases/download/v6.0.0-alpha.10/powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb \ Resolving github.com (github.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `github.com'
02:03:06 <ais523> tswett: you want `fetch
02:03:11 <tswett> `fetch https://github.com/PowerShell/PowerShell/releases/download/v6.0.0-alpha.10/powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
02:03:28 <ais523> hmm, `fetch is normally faster than this
02:03:42 <HackEgo> 2016-10-06 01:03:16 URL:https://github-cloud.s3.amazonaws.com/releases/49609581/1434e3dc-7b5c-11e6-8375-31fdcb64a7cd.deb?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAISTNZFOVBIJMK3TQ%2F20161006%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20161006T010325Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Signature=93d65c75024dc5add971ad455e8e17bc09c73015e5c36a8c949f5
02:03:42 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ (__) \ (oo) \ /------\/ \ / | || \ * /\---/\ \ ~~ ~~ \ ...."Have you mooed today?"...
02:03:59 <tswett> Well, it's a 39-megabyte file.
02:04:11 <tswett> `file powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
02:04:11 <HackEgo> powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb: Debian binary package (format 2.0)
02:04:25 <tswett> We're in good shape so far.
02:04:37 <tswett> `run dpkg -i powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
02:04:38 <HackEgo> dpkg: error: requested operation requires superuser privilege
02:04:57 <tswett> Wish me luck in entering the password correctly?
02:05:01 <tswett> `run sudo dpkg -i powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
02:05:02 <HackEgo> bash: sudo: command not found
02:05:22 <boily> Gregor: SUDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
02:06:14 <oerjan> tswett: the sandbox doesn't even have writeable mounts outside /hackenv/ and /tmp/
02:06:26 <ais523> you might be able to install it inside /hackenv/ though
02:06:40 <tswett> `run sudo dpkg -i powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb --instdir=powershell
02:06:41 <HackEgo> bash: sudo: command not found
02:06:47 <tswett> `run dpkg -i powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb --instdir=powershell
02:06:47 <HackEgo> dpkg: error: requested operation requires superuser privilege
02:06:56 <tswett> `run dpkg -i powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb --root=powershell
02:06:57 <HackEgo> dpkg: error: requested operation requires superuser privilege
02:07:06 <boily> `run su -c 'echo test'
02:07:07 <HackEgo> su: Cannot determine your user name.
02:07:13 <boily> `run su root -c 'echo test'
02:07:14 <HackEgo> su: Cannot determine your user name.
02:07:24 <ais523> that's quite the gid too
02:07:26 <tswett> dpkg --do-this-in-a-way-which-does-not-require-superuser-privilege
02:07:34 <boily> HackEgo is very giddy.
02:08:00 <ais523> you might want to try dpkg-deb -x
02:08:11 <tswett> `run dpkg -i powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb --root=powershell --force-not-root
02:08:11 <HackEgo> Usage: dpkg-deb [<option> ...] <command> \ \ Commands: \ -b|--build <directory> [<deb>] Build an archive. \ -c|--contents <deb> List contents. \ -I|--info <deb> [<cfile> ...] Show info to stdout. \ -W|--show <deb> Show information on package(s) \ -f|--field <deb> [<cfield> ...] Show field(s) to stdout.
02:08:11 <HackEgo> dpkg: error: requested operation requires superuser privilege
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02:21:46 <Jafet> `` dpkg -x powershell*.deb
02:21:47 <HackEgo> dpkg-deb: error: --extract needs a target directory. \ Perhaps you should be using dpkg --install ?
02:22:29 <Jafet> `` mkdir -p powershell-6.0.0 && dpkg -x powershell*.deb powershell-6.0.0
02:22:54 <HackEgo> dpkg-deb: error: subprocess tar was killed by signal (File size limit exceeded)
02:23:21 <Jafet> `` du -s powershell-6.0.0 && find powershell-6.0.0
02:23:23 <HackEgo> 76powershell-6.0.0 \ powershell-6.0.0 \ powershell-6.0.0/usr \ powershell-6.0.0/usr/bin \ powershell-6.0.0/usr/share \ powershell-6.0.0/usr/share/doc \ powershell-6.0.0/usr/share/doc/powershell \ powershell-6.0.0/usr/local \ powershell-6.0.0/usr/local/share \ powershell-6.0.0/usr/local/share/man \ powershell-6.0.0/usr/local/share/man/man1 \ powers
02:24:13 <tswett> So, that "Tokiber" language of mine.
02:24:23 <tswett> It's now to the point where you can define natural numbers, and you can also define lists of natural numbers.
02:24:40 <Jafet> `` rm -rf powershell-6.0.0
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02:25:36 <tswett> "Natural number" and "list of natural numbers" are totally unrelated types. This is because the "list of natural numbers" type contains its own definition of natural numbers; it doesn't reuse the one that already exists.
02:25:44 <tswett> Here's how it all looks. http://lpaste.net/192258
02:28:40 <tswett> Let me go ahead and define a function which takes a natural number and returns a list containing only that number. It'll be pretty easy, here...
02:29:19 <tswett> definition nat_singleton(x : Nat) := cons(natToLNat.Nat(x), empty);
02:37:39 <izalove> reverse-reverse-engineering = engineering?
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02:50:44 <pikhq> Aaaah, IRC. How I missed thee.
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03:01:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
03:01:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
03:01:27 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ powershell \ powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
03:01:34 <HackEgo> fakeroot, create a fake root environment. \ usage: fakeroot [-l|--lib fakerootlib] [-f|--faked fakedbin] \ [-i file] [-s file] [-u|--unknown-is-real] \ [-b|--fd-base fd] [-h|--help] [-v|--version] \ [--] [command]
03:01:49 <jeffl42> `fetch https://github.com/PowerShell/PowerShell/releases/download/v6.0.0-alpha.10/powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
03:02:22 <HackEgo> 2016-10-06 02:01:58 URL:https://github-cloud.s3.amazonaws.com/releases/49609581/1434e3dc-7b5c-11e6-8375-31fdcb64a7cd.deb?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAISTNZFOVBIJMK3TQ%2F20161006%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20161006T020206Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Signature=f5e0703c85e6475e939eda0c34ecaaa0cdd5bdb367566ffcd54bc
03:02:23 <oerjan> jeffl42: fetch isn't in the sandbox
03:02:25 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ powershell \ powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb \ powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb.1 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
03:02:56 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ powershell \ powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb \ powershell_6.0.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb.1 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
03:03:01 <oerjan> the most recent xkcd seems somehow relevant.
03:04:30 <jeffl42> `` fakeroot dpkg -i --root=powershell powershell_6.6.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
03:04:31 <HackEgo> dpkg: error: unable to access dpkg status area: No such file or directory
03:05:01 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: debootstrap: command not found
03:05:34 <jeffl42> `` mkdir powershell/var/lib/dpkg
03:05:35 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `powershell/var/lib/dpkg': No such file or directory
03:05:42 <jeffl42> `` mkdir powershell/var/lib
03:05:44 <jeffl42> `` mkdir powershell/var/lib/dpk
03:05:46 <jeffl42> `` mkdir powershell/var/lib/dpkg
03:05:52 <jeffl42> `` rmdir powershell/var/lib/dpk
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03:06:45 <jeffl42> `` touch powershell/var/lib/dpkg/status
03:06:49 <jeffl42> `` fakeroot dpkg -i --root=powershell powershell_6.6.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
03:06:52 <HackEgo> dpkg: error: cannot scan updates directory `powershell/var/lib/dpkg/updates/': No such file or directory
03:07:03 <jeffl42> `` mkdir powershell/var/lib/dpkg/updates
03:07:04 <jeffl42> `` fakeroot dpkg -i --root=powershell powershell_6.6.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
03:07:05 <HackEgo> dpkg: error: failed to open package info file `powershell/var/lib/dpkg/available' for reading: No such file or directory
03:07:20 <jeffl42> `` touch powershell/var/lib/dpkg/available
03:07:22 <jeffl42> `` fakeroot dpkg -i --root=powershell powershell_6.6.0-alpha.10-1ubuntu1.16.04.1_amd64.deb
03:07:25 <HackEgo> dpkg: error: unable to sync directory 'powershell/var/lib/dpkg': Invalid argument
03:09:29 <oerjan> i'm wondering about that dpkg-deb: error: subprocess tar was killed by signal (File size limit exceeded)
03:09:31 <jeffl42> `` ls powershell/var/lib/dpkg
03:09:32 <HackEgo> available \ lock \ status \ status-old \ triggers \ updates
03:09:50 <jeffl42> `` ls powershell/var/lib/dpkg/available
03:09:50 <HackEgo> powershell/var/lib/dpkg/available
03:09:57 <jeffl42> `` cat powershell/var/lib/dpkg/available
03:09:58 <oerjan> if that means the package contains a file larger than HackEgo will allow, period
03:10:33 <jeffl42> but i don't get what "unable to sync directory" means
03:10:43 <jeffl42> it's probably a sandbox limitation :(
03:10:57 <HackEgo> removed `powershell/var/lib/dpkg/available' \ removed `powershell/var/lib/dpkg/status-old' \ removed `powershell/var/lib/dpkg/triggers/Lock' \ removed `powershell/var/lib/dpkg/triggers/Unincorp.new' \ removed directory: `powershell/var/lib/dpkg/triggers' \ removed `powershell/var/lib/dpkg/updates/tmp.i' \ removed directory: `powershell/var/lib/dpkg
03:11:02 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
03:11:09 <oerjan> maybe it doesn't support the sync syscall
03:11:49 <HackEgo> fakeroot, create a fake root environment. \ usage: fakeroot [-l|--lib fakerootlib] [-f|--faked fakedbin] \ [-i file] [-s file] [-u|--unknown-is-real] \ [-b|--fd-base fd] [-h|--help] [-v|--version] \ [--] [command]
03:13:59 <oerjan> nothing other than file contents is going to be persistent between HackEgo commands, btw
03:14:11 <oerjan> they run in a completely new VM
03:15:10 <oerjan> commands which change files even run twice.
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03:46:14 * pikhq sees a distinct lack of shachaf to ask about how pooches are
03:49:55 <oerjan> pikhq: his spam allergy got the better of him today
03:50:30 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm trying to make sure the math checks out. Pretty sure it does.)
03:51:20 <oerjan> ln(-1) is multivalued.
03:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> Sudden question: i is for the imaginary numbers, and j is for the split-imaginary numbers. What's e^ij?
03:53:50 <oerjan> plug it into the power series for e^z
03:55:18 <oerjan> technically you want your numbers to form a Banach algebra.
03:55:43 <oerjan> and then applying holomorphic functions is well-defined.
03:57:20 <oerjan> well, it probably works.
03:58:59 <oerjan> (assuming the functions are real. otherwise you really need i.)
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04:49:12 <izalove> llua | dunno how to fix the race condition known as global warming
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05:49:01 <jeffl42> `` cat hackenv/bin/unidecode
05:49:02 <HackEgo> cat: hackenv/bin/unidecode: No such file or directory
05:49:06 <jeffl42> `` cat /hackenv/bin/unidecode
05:49:07 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import os, sys \ import unicodedata \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ if u"DUNNO" in s: \ os.execvp("multicode", ["multicode"] + sys.argv[1:]) \ else: \ print s
05:49:22 <pikhq> So, just using Python's lib. Fair enough.
05:49:36 <pikhq> Granted, doing anything else would be a lot more effort for minimal gain.
05:49:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
05:49:46 <HackEgo> U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
05:49:49 <pikhq> Looking through the Unicode database is not exactly a *hard* problem.
05:49:58 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
05:50:03 <HackEgo> U+000F <control> \ UTF-8: 0f UTF-16BE: 000f Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
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06:07:16 <pikhq> It's gonna snow tomorrow!
06:07:28 <shachaf> they should call it goodorado
06:07:49 -!- augur has joined.
06:07:59 <pikhq> And there be pooches!
06:08:30 <pikhq> Not easily obtainable ATM
06:09:14 <pikhq> Clearly this would make for a great startup.
06:09:31 <shachaf> move to silly valley and start it
06:09:38 <shachaf> and rip off your employees
06:09:59 <pikhq> And be sure to ask for loans from 'em, right?
06:12:13 <pikhq> God, that company. What a bizarre and impression-forming last experience of SV.
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06:46:05 <pikhq> WrkRiot. They offered me a job and the day after it came out that they were a bunch of shitty incompetent scammers, and now the company is dead.
06:46:49 <pikhq> Well, that the company is dead is good.
06:47:03 <pikhq> That the company died before fucking me over is something I kinda like.
06:47:12 <pikhq> But... otherwise, no, it's just a pile of shit.
06:47:33 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yeah, the second part is what I was going for
06:54:59 <shachaf> pikhq: guess what other company is dead
06:57:22 <hppavilion[1]> Thribonacci sequence (first 30 terms): '1, 1, 1, 3, 5, 9, 17, 31, 57, 105, 193, 355, 653, 1201, 2209, 4063, 7473, 13745, 25281, 46499, 85525, 157305, 289329, 532159, 978793, 1800281, 3311233, 6090307, 11201821, 20603361
06:59:09 <pikhq> shachaf: Um. Yahoo!?
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07:36:14 <shachaf> (It was the first company I worked at when I moved to CA.)
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08:34:10 <izalove> it's dead because you left
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11:44:36 <HackEgo> mothology//Mothology is the study of moths, myths and mirths.
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13:38:33 <HackEgo> [U+2206 INCREMENT] [U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA] [U+2D60 TIFINAGH LETTER YAV] [U+1403 CANADIAN SYLLABICS I] [U+A554 VAI SYLLABLE KPA] [U+07E1 NKO LETTER MA]
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13:39:32 * APic likes all You G{al,uy}s here. *Hugs* ☺
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14:01:33 <izalove> how did facebook get https://facebookcorewwwi.onion/ ?
14:02:42 * moony42 curses FleetingFlames for forgetting the pickaxe on embark
14:25:06 <fizzie> Well, you can truncate either to any number of bits. But I guess 80 is "more natural" for SHA-1.
14:25:12 <fizzie> https://gitweb.torproject.org/torspec.git/tree/rend-spec.txt#n526 "Let H' = the first 80 bits of H [SHA hash of the service's public key], considering each octet from most significant bit to least significant bit. Generate a 16-character encoding of H', using base32 as defined in RFC 4648."
14:26:19 <fizzie> @tell oerjan It's that Ruby irc bot library doing that, it's p. silly.
14:27:02 <fizzie> Actually, let's just restart it and hope nothing breaks.
14:27:06 <FireFly> fizzie: sure, but I remembered it was exactly half of a hash function
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14:32:27 <ybden> izalove: yeah, they bruteforced it
14:33:16 <ybden> see also, https://github.com/lachesis/scallion
15:14:26 <myname> moony42: :D that reminds me of making those actually necessary for mining
15:15:15 <moony42> myname: oh apparently he brought the materials to make them instead. smart of him. he didnt bring and axe either :P
15:15:27 <moony42> myname: want to join us? we are using a noVNC server to play together
15:16:03 <myname> no thanks. i didn't play for way too long and would probably just slow things way down
15:16:41 <moony42> even then. we would like it. but ok (:
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15:58:23 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1h 32m 4s ago: It's that Ruby irc bot library doing that, it's p. silly.
15:59:28 <oerjan> now i just need to find out what i asked.
16:02:18 <oerjan> ok it was just a day earlier.
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16:11:29 <fizzie> You'll note that I manually de-underscored as well.
16:11:51 <oerjan> that should keep it sane for a couple of days.
16:13:16 <oerjan> !zjoust pathetic >>>>>>([-]>[+]>)*12
16:13:17 <zemhill> oerjan.pathetic: points -11.90, score 12.02, rank 36/47
16:13:49 <oerjan> hm is the hill still broken because of that beat-everything program
16:14:42 <oerjan> if i sometimes beat that, then it could have such an effect, no?
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16:18:14 * oerjan leaves his program there as a symbolic gesture
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17:15:17 <\oren\> argh, some bank is sending me a credit card I don't want
17:15:46 <\oren\> I'll probably destroy it when it gets to my house
17:20:42 <\oren\> if I don't activate it they can't charge me anything probably
17:23:59 <oerjan> just keep your credit rating so ruined the banks don't want to give you one hth
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17:33:09 <\oren\> oerjan: can't really do that if I don't even use the credit card I have
17:33:29 <int-e> (this idea of banks sending somebody a credit card seems so alien to me...)
17:33:58 <int-e> \oren\: just default on some non-credit-card loan
17:34:10 <\oren\> I don't have any loans
17:34:28 <\oren\> or a mortgage, or really any debt whatsoever
17:34:33 <int-e> you're making this difficult.
17:35:16 <int-e> maybe change your legal name to some other person who's in debt
17:35:51 <\oren\> well I sent that bank a flame letter telling them I'm not taking their stupid credit card, and especially not one with an annual fee
17:36:16 <\oren\> maybe the bank will fuck with my credit rating in response?
17:36:19 <int-e> how does that work anyway... if the card is used, do they assume it was you?
17:36:39 <\oren\> that's why I'mma destroy it if it gets to my house
17:37:42 <\oren\> it was literally a flame letter informing them of an imminent fire
17:38:28 <\oren\> int-e: well you have to activate it online first
17:38:34 <\oren\> which I'm not gonna do
17:41:02 <\oren\> I think kill it with fire is a good response to annual fees
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17:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> "He who fights with bullshit should be careful lest he thereby become a vessel of bullshit. And if thou gaze long into a stupid, you'll be sad because of the stupid."
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17:53:11 <imode> looks like we have another TIS-100.
17:53:24 <imode> http://store.steampowered.com/app/504210/
17:53:43 <imode> brings to mind Flow Based Programming.
17:57:35 <oerjan> yag? what does that even mean you're making no sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111ELEVEN
18:01:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Just make it mean whatever logically follows from the pattern)
18:01:40 <int-e> . o O ( "Yag!" is an exclamation of extreme ambivalence. )
18:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn yag/"Yag!" is an exclamation of extreme ambivalence.
18:02:36 <oerjan> well gag is disgust, yay is approval, while gay depends on who you are
18:03:03 <oerjan> so yag would be an expression of approval for homophobes, i guess.
18:03:26 <oerjan> (am i thinking too much like hppavilion[1] yet?)
18:03:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: oerjan gaa+y means "lame" and is etymologically related to- but no longer directly connected to- the word "gay" as informal for "homosexual"
18:05:25 <int-e> 'From Middle English gay, from Old French gai (“joyful, laughing, merry”)...'
18:08:22 <oerjan> ARGH i combined the words "old" and "gay" and now i'm remembering lemonparty
18:09:26 <int-e> good thing I have no clue what you're talking about
18:10:04 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Yes. I think it's a shock image like Goatse.
18:10:16 <\oren\> chocolate chip cookies
18:10:20 <\oren\> chocolate chip cookies
18:10:45 <\oren\> white chocolate chip and macadamia nut cookies
18:10:57 * hppavilion[1] will not be clicking any links except to websites that e knows can't hold images in-channel for the next several months
18:11:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i was just thinking that.
18:11:51 <oerjan> lemonparty is the one shock site i _did_ get tricked to from this channel.
18:12:03 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Why isn't there a browser extension that comes with firefox which holds hashes of known shock images and blocks them until explicitly displayed )
18:12:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: are you sure there isn't?
18:13:06 <oerjan> of course, if it got popular, trolls would start circumventing it.
18:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> Citation as to why gaa+y isn't offensive: Similar scenarios exist, with unoffensive words sharing etymology with offensive ones- e.g. 'asinine'
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18:18:20 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QTV0RAfHho
18:18:20 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: ais001 to ais522 are real people, they just don't visit #esoteric, and probably don't use the usernames in question any more
18:18:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: incidentally i learned as a result of yesterday's pencil discussion that pencil isn't related to pen, but _is_ related to penis
18:18:50 <ais523> the username was originally autogenerated for me when I was a student, and I just kept using it
18:19:08 <ais523> this means that the 523 is entirely arbitrary, a fact that Discordians apparently find hilarious
18:19:33 <\oren\> my autogenerated username was watson1g
18:19:41 <hppavilion[1]> My initials spell 'NET', so the names would be much more confusing for other people
18:19:56 <APic> Eris Dÿscordiæ has her Fingers in every RNG out there ;=P
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18:21:12 <hppavilion[1]> (My first and middle names are "Naþan E". The E isn't short for anything, my middle name is literally just "E")
18:21:13 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you inspired me to look at what's at http://net.net
18:21:38 <ais523> also you wouldn't be the first person with a single-letter middle name
18:21:56 <Taneb> Wasn't there a US president with a single-letter middle name
18:22:18 <\oren\> Admin Name: Francesco Degl'Innocenti
18:22:36 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], also your first name seems to be an uncommon spelling of my first name
18:22:51 <Taneb> I don't think it's often spelt with a thorn
18:22:53 <hppavilion[1]> It's formally Nathan, but I decided it has to be spelled Naþan.
18:23:11 <Taneb> Isn't it closer to Naþ'n?
18:23:13 <ais523> huh, net.net is registered until 2023, and has a flag on it that bars it from being renewed (which according to ICANN is very rare)
18:23:29 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: It's occasionally spelled "Nathen", and people use it sometimes
18:23:42 <APic> My first Birth-Name is „Andreas“, and my two Middle-Names are „Christian“ and „Thomas“. I found out about them in Psychiatry in the YOLD 3177.
18:23:48 <ais523> hmm, ə is arguably a cross between an a and an e
18:23:56 <\oren\> do you write it with a thorn on your school stuff?
18:24:03 <APic> There are Things coded into Reality that even Parents cannot foresee.
18:24:32 <APic> And i like my two Nicks „APic“ and „ACTPic“ very much. Both of them. ☺
18:24:41 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And I spell my last name in the original way (with an 'ø'), and I put an underscore between first and last.
18:24:43 <APic> (Needed in IRCnet because You cannot join that many Channels there. ☺)
18:25:27 <hppavilion[1]> APic: Wait, is there literally a „ in your- oh, it's quotes
18:25:40 <APic> hppavilion[1]: ;=P
18:25:59 <APic> Ok, time to bike home
18:26:00 <\oren\> it's those weird european quotes
18:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Your options are "''", '""', fancy equivalents of those, or- rarely- Guillemets)
18:28:57 <pikhq> Guillemets and bottom quotes are just really weird in English.
18:29:05 <pikhq> Much like using , as the decimal point.
18:29:21 <ais523> I use guillemets as a Unicode representation of HTML's <code></code> tag
18:29:35 <ais523> because except for Perl 6 and the occasional esolang, they don't have any special meaning when programming
18:29:43 <ais523> so they tend to be unconfusable with the text inside
18:31:43 <pikhq> Besides, if you're gonna use weird quote marks, CJK has some ｢nice｣ ones.
18:32:47 <ais523> I'm not sure those are on my altgr /or/ my compose
18:33:47 <ais523> ¦<>©‘’Nº×÷Ł&ŊªÐ§§ÆΩŁE®Ŧ¥↑ıØÞ°±™⅞⅝⅜¼£⅛¡¹²³€½¾{[]}\þø→↓←ŧ¶eł@æßðđŋħłĸµ─·ṇ”nn
18:33:47 <pikhq> Yeah, they're in my Japanese IME only here.
18:33:54 <ais523> err, didn't mean to send that
18:33:56 <hppavilion[1]> Fun ultra-obscure math prank: When you have a paper with a variable σ, bury the equation ψ = πσ deep in the paper and never use it (when there's absolutely no good reason to multiply σ by π)
18:34:29 <ais523> I think \triangleq might make more sense than equals
18:34:42 <ais523> an unused definition makes a little more sense than an unused equation
18:35:26 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: In greek pronunciation, π is [p], σ is [s], and ψ is [ps]
18:35:49 <ais523> is /ps/ actually two separate phonemes, though?
18:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, but 'ψ' makes 'πσ' in Greek the same way 'x' makes 'ks' in English
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18:40:43 <\oren\> if all those look different you have a good font\
18:42:09 <ais523> \oren\: they're all different for me, although the fourth one is bizarre
18:42:16 <ais523> it looks like a combining umlaut that isn't combined with anything
18:42:42 <ais523> in that case my font is great :-P
18:44:38 * ais523 attacks \oren\'s oom with the oom killer
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20:03:50 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan You missed 'yg', 'gy', and 'yy' in [yg]a*[yg]!? earlier hth
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20:30:58 <fizzie> No, a+ is equivalent to aa*.
20:31:44 <fizzie> The latter (aa*) is "more fundamental". In a subjective sense.
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20:44:08 <shachaf> fizzie: "A is equivalent to B" is equivalent to "B is equivalent to A"
20:44:33 <ais523> shachaf: huh, isn't equivalence symmetrical?
20:45:06 <shachaf> ais523: It has a property equivalent to symmetry.
20:50:42 <hppavilion[1]> If you ever legal pair-bond with a person with a name such as Agnes, Nancy, etc (or a masculine equivalent), the ceremony must be performed on weekday #2 (M0)
20:54:54 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that's one of the most zzo38 things I've ever seen you say
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20:56:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It was intended to be very obscure so that as you decode it into intelligible English, you get the joke
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21:17:27 <HackEgo> U+00B2 SUPERSCRIPT TWO \ UTF-8: c2 b2 UTF-16BE: 00b2 Decimal: ² \ ² \ Category: No (Number, Other) \ Numeric value: 2 \ Digit value: 2 \ Bidi: EN (European Number) \ Decomposition: <super> 0032 \ \ U+00B3 SUPERSCRIPT THREE \ UTF-8: c2 b3 UTF-16BE: 00b3 Decimal: ³ \ ³ \ Category: No (Number, Other) \ Numeric value: 3 \ Digit value:
21:17:40 <\oren\> `` unicode SUPERSCRIPT
21:17:41 <HackEgo> U+00B2 SUPERSCRIPT TWO \ UTF-8: c2 b2 UTF-16BE: 00b2 Decimal: ² \ ² \ Category: No (Number, Other) \ Numeric value: 2 \ Digit value: 2 \ Bidi: EN (European Number) \ Decomposition: <super> 0032 \ \ U+00B3 SUPERSCRIPT THREE \ UTF-8: c2 b3 UTF-16BE: 00b3 Decimal: ³ \ ³ \ Category: No (Number, Other) \ Numeric value: 3 \ Digit value:
21:18:02 <\oren\> `` unicode SUPERSCRIPT | tr -d ' -~'
21:18:06 <HackEgo> \ \ ² \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ³ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ¹ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ٰ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ܑ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ⁰ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ⁱ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ⁴ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ⁵ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ⁶
21:18:14 <\oren\> `` unicode SUPERSCRIPT | tr -d ' -~\n'
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21:18:41 <\oren\> ok apparently i'm missing some in my font
21:18:56 <\oren\> `` unicode SUBSCRIPT | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:19:56 <hppavilion[1]> It's disappointing that a candidate who says such insane things can have support in an election.
21:20:49 <\oren\> `` unicode MODIFIER | tr -d ' -~\n'
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21:22:17 <\oren\> `` unicode SMALL | tr -d ' -~\n'
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21:22:37 <\oren\> `` unicode TONE | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:25:28 <\oren\> `` unicode MODIFIER LETTER | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:25:28 <\oren\> the unicode database in hackego is clearly outdated
21:25:29 <HackEgo> U+1D9B MODIFIER LETTER SMALL TURNED ALPHA \ UTF-8: e1 b6 9b UTF-16BE: 1d9b Decimal: ᶛ \ ᶛ \ Category: Lm (Letter, Modifier) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <super> 0252
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21:25:30 <\oren\> `` unicode SMALL| tr -d ' -~\n'
21:25:50 <HackEgo> Unicode is a mess invented in 1988 by Xerox, Microsoft, the Spanish Inquisition, and the evil Human Supremacy Corporation, in order to make it easier for the government to spy on Chinese people.
21:25:58 <HackEgo> cat: unicode: No such file or directory
21:26:02 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import re \ import sys, os \ import unicodedata \ def l(c): m = re.match('(?:U[+])?([0-9a-f]{1,5})$', c, re.I); return unicodedata.lookup(c) if m is None else unichr(int(m.group(1),16)) \ try: \ print u''.join(map(l, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ os.execvp("multico
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21:26:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
21:26:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/unicode
21:27:13 <fizzie> `` unicode INVISIBLE | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:27:59 <\oren\> `` multicode ALPHA | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:28:10 <\oren\> `` multicode MODIFIER | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:28:30 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ \ \ import os, glob, sys, unicodedata, locale, gzip, re, traceback, encodings \ import urllib, webbrowser, textwrap \ \ # bz2 was introduced in 2.3, we want this to work also with earlier versions \ try: \ import bz2 \ except ImportError: \ bz2 = None \ \ # for python3 \ try: \ unicode \ except NameError: \
21:28:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/multicode
21:29:55 <\oren\> `` multicode MODIFIER.* | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:30:03 <\oren\> `` multicode 'MODIFIER.*' | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:30:11 <\oren\> `` multicode '.*MODIFIER.*' | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:30:23 <\oren\> `` multicode '.*LETTER.*' | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:30:35 <\oren\> `` multicode 'LETTER' | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:30:41 <\oren\> `` multicode LETTER | tr -d ' -~\n'
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21:31:43 <\oren\> `` multicode -m100 MODIFIER | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:31:44 <HackEgo> ʰʱʲʳʴʵʶʷʸʹʺʻʼʽʾʿˀˁ˂˃˄˅ˆˇˈˉˊˋˌˍˎˏːˑ˒˓˔˕˖˗˞˟ˠˡˢˣˤ˥˦˧˨˩˪˫ˬ˭ˮ˯˰˱˲˳˴˵˶˷˸˹˺˻˼˽˾˿ՙ՚ࠚࠤࠨჼᴬᴭᴮᴯᴰᴱᴲᴳᴴᴵᴶᴷᴸᴹᴺᴻᴼᴽᴾᴿ
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21:32:29 <\oren\> `` multicode -m100 INVISIBLE | tr -d ' -~\n'
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21:32:55 <\oren\> `` multicode -m100 SPACE | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:32:56 <HackEgo> ፡ ␈␠ 〿𝙰𝙱𝙲𝙳𝙴𝙵𝙶𝙷𝙸𝙹𝙺𝙻𝙼𝙽𝙾𝙿𝚀𝚁𝚂𝚃𝚄𝚅𝚆𝚇𝚈𝚉𝚊𝚋𝚌𝚍𝚎𝚏𝚐𝚑𝚒𝚓𝚔𝚕𝚖𝚗𝚘𝚙𝚚𝚛𝚜𝚝𝚞𝚟𝚠𝚡𝚢𝚣𝟶𝟷𝟸𝟹𝟺𝟻𝟼𝟽𝟾𝟿𝩿𝪀
21:33:19 <\oren\> wait I don't support those? weird,
21:34:11 <\oren\> `` multicode -m100 SUBSCRIPT | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:34:12 <HackEgo> ٖᵢᵣᵤᵥᵦᵧᵨᵩᵪ₀₁₂₃₄₅₆₇₈₉₊₋₌₍₎ₐₑₒₓₔₕₖₗₘₙₚₛₜ⨧ⱼ
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21:34:45 <HackEgo> U+2A27 PLUS SIGN WITH SUBSCRIPT TWO \ UTF-8: e2 a8 a7 UTF-16BE: 2a27 Decimal: ⨧ \ ⨧ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
21:36:21 <\oren\> `` multicode -m100 CYRILLIC | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:36:22 <HackEgo> ЀѐЁёЂђЃѓЄєЅѕІіЇїЈјЉљЊњЋћЌќЍѝЎўЏџАаБбВвГгДдЕеЖжЗзИиЙйКкЛлМмНнОоПпРрСсТтУуФфХхЦцЧчШшЩщЪъЫыЬьЭэЮюЯяаАбБвВгГдДеЕжЖзЗиИйЙкКлЛмМнНоОпПрРсСтТуУфФхХцЦчЧшШщЩъЪыЫьЬэЭюЮяЯѐЀёЁђЂѓЃєЄѕЅі
21:36:34 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 CYRILLIC | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:36:35 <HackEgo> ЀѐЁёЂђЃѓЄєЅѕІіЇїЈјЉљЊњЋћЌќЍѝЎўЏџАаБбВвГгДдЕеЖжЗзИиЙйКкЛлМмНнОоПпРрСсТтУуФфХхЦцЧчШшЩщЪъЫыЬьЭэЮюЯяаАбБвВгГдДеЕжЖзЗиИйЙкКлЛмМнНоОпПрРсСтТуУфФхХцЦчЧшШщЩъЪыЫьЬэЭюЮяЯѐЀёЁђЂѓЃєЄѕЅі
21:37:32 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 LATIN | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:37:34 <HackEgo> ÀàÁáÂâÃãÄäÅåÆæÇçÈèÉéÊêËëÌìÍíÎîÏïÐðÑñÒòÓóÔôÕõÖöØøÙùÚúÛûÜüÝýÞþßàÀáÁâÂãÃäÄåÅæÆçÇèÈéÉêÊëËìÌíÍîÎïÏðÐñÑòÒóÓôÔõÕöÖøØùÙúÚûÛüÜýÝþÞÿŸĀāāĀĂăăĂĄąąĄĆććĆĈĉĉĈĊċċĊČččČĎďďĎĐđđĐĒēēĒĔĕĕĔĖėėĖĘę
21:37:43 <\oren\> oh, it's the irc character limit
21:38:20 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 SMALL | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:38:21 <HackEgo> âÃà ÃáÃâÃãÃäÃÃ¥Ã
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21:38:58 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 MATH | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:38:59 <HackEgo> ⟋⟍⟦⟧⟨⟩⟪⟫⟬⟭⟮⟯𝐀𝐁𝐂𝐃𝐄𝐅𝐆𝐇𝐈𝐉𝐊𝐋𝐌𝐍𝐎𝐏𝐐𝐑𝐒𝐓𝐔𝐕𝐖𝐗𝐘𝐙𝐚𝐛𝐜𝐝𝐞𝐟𝐠𝐡𝐢𝐣𝐤𝐥𝐦𝐧𝐨𝐩𝐪𝐫𝐬𝐭𝐮𝐯𝐰𝐱𝐲𝐳𝐴𝐵𝐶𝐷𝐸𝐹𝐺𝐻𝐼𝐽𝐾𝐿𝑀𝑁𝑂𝑃𝑄𝑅𝑆𝑇𝑈𝑉𝑊𝑋𝑌
21:40:30 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 RECYCLING | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:41:41 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 FOR | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:41:53 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 .*FOR. | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:41:56 <HackEgo> ֺۘۢ౸౹౺౻౼౽౾൙ཪྺྻྼ၎፵ᯯᳮℹ⅏ↅↆ∀∴⊩⊮⋔⎓⏹⏺␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏␐␑␒␓␔␕␖␗␘␙␚␛␜␝␞␟␠␡␥␦⑂⑃─━│┃┄┅┆┇┈┉┊┋┌┍┎┏┐┑┒┓└┕┖┗┘┙┚┛├┝┞┟┠┡┢┣┤┥┦┧┨
21:42:29 <\oren\> have I messed up the terminal yet?
21:43:01 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 ARABIC | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:43:03 <HackEgo> ؆؇؈؉؊،؍؎؏ؘؙؚؐؑؒؓؔؕؖؗ؛؞؟ؠءآأؤإئابةتثجحخدذرزسشصضطظعغػؼؽؾؿـفقكلمنهوىيًٌٍَُِّْٕٖٜٟٓٔٗ٘ٙٚٛٝٞ٠١٢٣٤٥٦٧٨٩٪٫٬٭ٮٯٰٱٲٳٴٵٶٷٸٹٺٻټٽپٿڀځڂڃڄڅچڇڈډڊڋڌڍڎڏڐڑڒړڔڕږڗژڙښڛڜڝڞڟڠڡڢڣڤڥڦڧڨکڪګڬڭڮ
21:43:16 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 HEBREW | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:43:17 <HackEgo> ְֱֲֳִֵֶַָֹֺֻּֽ֑֖֛֢֣֤֥֦֧֪֚֭֮֒֓֔֕֗֘֙֜֝֞֟֠֡֨֩֫֬֯־ֿ׀ׁׂ׃ׅׄ׆ׇאבגדהוזחטיךכלםמןנסעףפץצקרשתװױײ׳״יִﬞײַﬠﬡﬢﬣﬤﬥﬦﬧﬨ﬩שׁשׂשּׁשּׂאַאָאּבּגּדּהּוּזּטּיּךּכּלּמּנּסּףּפּצּקּרּשּתּוֹבֿכֿפֿﭏ
21:44:00 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 COMBINING | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:44:01 <HackEgo> ̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼̀́̂̃̄̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́̕̚ͅΙ͇͈͉͍͎͆͊͋͌͏͓͔͕͖͙͚͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ҃҄҅҆҇͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡҈҉߲߫߬߭߮߯߰߱߳ఀ᩿᪵᪶᪷᪸᪹᪺᪽፝፞፟᪰᪱᪲᪳᪴᪻᪼᪾᭬᭫᭭᭮᭯᭰᭱᭲᭳
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21:46:02 <\oren\> `` multicode -m1000 ACCENT | tr -d ' -~\n'
21:46:04 <HackEgo> ´ˆˊˋˎˏ˝˟˴˵˶̖̗̭̀́̂̋̏ѶѷѷѶ֑֖֛֢֣֤֥֦֧֪֚֭֮֒֓֔֕֗֘֙֜֝֞֟֠֡֨֩֫֬॓॔᪰᷀᷁⨣⨶⩯ꞈ＾｀𝅻𝆁
21:50:52 <int-e> my client doesn't support /ignore spam :-/
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22:03:56 <\oren\> I've discovered a lot of characters that aren't in my font. I'll work on that today
22:05:17 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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22:20:52 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/vanillaice/status/784033789555122176
22:21:36 <\oren\> he hasn't died yet but he's bout to
22:21:46 <imode> vanilla ice is still alive?
22:22:16 <\oren\> yes, but he's right in the path of hurricane matthew and is refusing to evacuate
22:23:14 <imode> make stupid choices, get stupid results.
22:23:52 <\oren\> dododo dededede dodododo dededede
22:28:53 <ybden> I think he may have set an example for some people...
22:29:04 <ybden> I suppose it's just natural selection
22:33:14 <\oren\> BTW, there's a massive argument going on in the unicode mailing list
22:33:51 <\oren\> about whether unicode needs a complete alphabet of subscript and superscript letters
22:35:48 <ybden> ...Unicode is not meant for typesetting
22:35:58 <ybden> Why would we need that
22:39:56 <\oren\> well, it already has lots of subscript and superscript letters for phonetic alphabet
22:40:25 <\oren\> as well as italic, script, bold, and fraktur letters for math
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23:02:49 <myname> but do we get them in at least 5 skin colors?
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23:10:16 <\oren\> `` echo $'\302\213hello\302\214'
23:10:38 <pikhq> No such luck here, at least.
23:11:25 <pikhq> \oren\: How many of those weirdo characters exist simply for round-trip compatibility with other charsets, though?
23:11:50 <\oren\> pikhq: very few. mostly they were added after some liguist used them
23:12:14 * pikhq was more thinking the italic/script/bold/fraktur math glyphs than the IPA glyphs
23:12:46 <pikhq> "This is used in IPA" is reason enough to encode it IMO.
23:12:59 <\oren\> oh, those weren't added for compatibility
23:13:14 <\oren\> they were added because some math people wnated them
23:15:32 <shachaf> pikhq: what kind of startup are you going to start in falicon valley twh
23:15:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AngelicosPhosphoros * New user account
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23:24:51 <\oren\> oh boy, somone on the unicode mailing list is accusing Adobe of an evil plot to "limit the performance of plain text"
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23:27:55 <pikhq> shachaf: Uh, fuck all y'all?
23:28:32 <shachaf> how large is this group and why am i in it
23:28:52 <pikhq> The group is the clade "Homo".
23:28:59 <pikhq> Last I checked thou art human.
23:31:57 <dingbat> \oren\: oh god what is that
23:32:24 <pikhq> Mostly heuristics, really.
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23:34:37 <dingbat> oi, pikhq, I recognize you
23:34:59 <pikhq> Allo, dingbat. I think I've seen you 'round here before.
23:35:58 <dingbat> pikhq: probably in xkcd, as well. I mostly lurk in here because I've been too busy to work on my esoteric language project
23:36:05 <HackEgo> DINGBAT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: <HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/>. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON EFNET OR DALNET.)
23:36:13 <shachaf> If only there was a `welcome in a dingbat font.
23:36:15 <pikhq> And, yes, I am a #xkcd regular as well.
23:36:30 <dingbat> aaaaaagh it's shouting at me.
23:36:32 <pikhq> To my knowledge I'm the only person who actually uses "pikhq", so. :)
23:37:20 <shachaf> I think people who are talking to you use it even more than you do.
23:37:46 <pikhq> Last I checked nobody else uses it to refer to themselves, I should say.
23:38:14 <hppavilion[1]> Is the proper way to trail of an exclamation []!... % []...! % []!.. % []..! % or [].!. ?
23:38:44 <dingbat> hppavilion[1]: ooh I have that question as well.
23:39:19 <dingbat> hppavilion[1]: uhhh, could you give an example?
23:40:19 <hppavilion[1]> You know what? ? and ! (and by extension ¿ and ¡ and ‽ and ⸘ and ⸮ and <<⸮ rotated pi radians>>) should follow the same rules as i and j
23:40:29 <\oren\> obviously a trailing off exclamation would be WHAT ARE YOu!...
23:41:04 <dingbat> According to wikipedia, "!.." is correct, in Russian. It doesn't seem to say how to do it in English. Weird.
23:41:49 <pikhq> I don't think I've seen it done in English.
23:42:20 <pikhq> My inclination would be "!…" though
23:42:25 <hppavilion[1]> dingbat: There's no unicode for it, but it represents a non-terminal question, a question mark at the end of a quote that does not terminate the sentence as a whole (a terminal quote uses ?, then a period after the end quote delimiter AS IT SHOULD BE), and (maybe, probably context-driven) to replace a comma in a question as a whole
23:43:00 <hppavilion[1]> Example: "Do you have any pizza<?,> because I'm starving"
23:44:38 <\oren\> You could make a proposal for these to the http://www.kreativekorp.com/ucsur/
23:45:16 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: In standard orthography that would actually be "Wow! That's a lot of fluorine."
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23:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> Like, the way you read that one would be *very* subtly different, but obvious
23:46:08 <\oren\> the UCSUR, a registry for encoding constructed or artificial scripts
23:46:18 <hppavilion[1]> (Also common is "<i>Wow</i>, that's a lot of fluorine.")
23:49:29 <\oren\> <!,> <?,> and presumably also <!..> and <?..> could be made into a small proposal
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23:51:18 <hppavilion[1]> So as I was saying, tittled punctuation (which include the exclamation mark, question mark, interrobang, rhetorical question mark, love mark, doubt mark, authority mark, certainty mark, and all of these inverted) should be able to handle diacritics the same way tittled letters (i and j in basic latin) do
23:51:31 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 3h 47m 41s ago: You missed 'yg', 'gy', and 'yy' in [yg]a*[yg]!? earlier hth
23:51:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: more like missed the * me thinks
23:52:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well yeah. But anything with MORE than 1 occurrence is basically it with 1 occurrence stretched
23:52:47 <hppavilion[1]> (exception: /ga{2,}y/, which is an entirely different word from "gay")
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23:53:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Which leads, for example, to the umlauted exclamation point >:)
23:55:10 <oerjan> the turkish exclamation point
00:01:49 <pikhq> All the more horrifying when you want to think about how it fits into C locales.
00:02:28 <pikhq> ... Near as I can tell, the spec isn't even specific enough to let you know if the Turkish case mapping is a permissible implementation.
00:07:22 <shachaf> the spec doesn't allow for a language which isn't localely-euclidean
00:10:48 <oerjan> that still leaves manifold options
00:11:32 <lambdabot> *** "manifold" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:11:32 <lambdabot> adj 1: many and varied; having many features or forms; "manifold
00:11:32 <lambdabot> reasons"; "our manifold failings"; "manifold
00:11:32 <lambdabot> intelligence"; "the multiplex opportunities in high
00:12:02 <fizzie> I think I've seen "...!" in a book, but not really as a trailing exclamation, more of a delayed realization.
00:12:37 <oerjan> shachaf: are you doubting my puns tdnh
00:13:04 <shachaf> oerjan: no, i was wondering whether that use is legitimate, because i'd avoided it in the past
00:14:46 <dingbat> hppavilion[1]: ah yeah I see what you mean now. I often have a need for for the question- and bang-comma
00:16:15 <lambdabot> technology" [syn: {manifold}, {multiplex}]
00:16:15 <lambdabot> n 1: a pipe that has several lateral outlets to or from other
00:16:15 <lambdabot> 2: a lightweight paper used with carbon paper to make multiple
00:16:15 <lambdabot> copies; "an original and two manifolds" [syn: {manifold
00:16:44 <oerjan> shachaf: it seems a bit scow that @wn gives examples with synonyms instead...
00:22:48 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It was intended to be very obscure so that as you decode it into intelligible English, you get the joke <-- pretty sure it failed hth
00:23:16 <oerjan> (well, not at the obscure part)
00:25:36 <hppavilion[1]> "obscure" was just the best word that came to mind
00:29:33 <oerjan> <\oren\> the unicode database in hackego is clearly outdated <-- how out of date? i upgraded it a few months ago, although some commands might not use the right one...
00:29:41 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import re \ import sys, os \ import unicodedata \ def l(c): m = re.match('(?:U[+])?([0-9a-f]{1,5})$', c, re.I); return unicodedata.lookup(c) if m is None else unichr(int(m.group(1),16)) \ try: \ print u''.join(map(l, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ os.execvp("multico
00:30:06 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ \ \ import os, glob, sys, unicodedata, locale, gzip, re, traceback, encodings \ import urllib, webbrowser, textwrap \ \ # bz2 was introduced in 2.3, we want this to work also with earlier versions \ try: \ import bz2 \ except ImportError: \ bz2 = None \ \ # for python3 \ try: \ unicode \ except NameError: \
00:30:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/multicode
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00:32:19 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2016-01-13 <oerjan> ` sed -i \'s!bin/UnicodeD!share/UnicodeD!\' bin/multicode; mv {bin,share}/UnicodeD* \ 2015-06-21 <tswett> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tswett> rm bin -r \ 2014-04-25 <Jafet> mv bin/{un,mult}icode && (head -n -1 bin/unico
00:32:44 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2015-06-21 <tswett> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tswett> rm bin -r \ 2014-04-25 <Jafet> sed -i \'s/"multicode", /"multicode", ["multicode"] +/\' bin/unicode \ 2014-04-25 <Jafet> chmod +x bin/unicode \ 2014-04-25 <Jafet> mv bin/{un,mult}icod
00:33:01 <oerjan> probably only multicode uses it
00:35:45 <oerjan> `` multicode MODIFIER LETTER | tr -d ' -~\n'
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00:36:43 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ candide \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ conscripts \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ headers \ headers.gch \ hello \ lua \ maimer \ maimery \ maze \ mtg \ nothp \ recipe \ scapegoats \ sedtest \ tanebgrep \ UnicodeData.txt \ units.dat \ usercmds \ WordData
00:38:22 <oerjan> `fetch http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
00:38:25 <HackEgo> 2016-10-06 23:38:03 URL:http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt [1686443/1686443] -> "UnicodeData.txt" [1]
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00:38:38 <oerjan> `` diff Unic* share/Unic*
00:39:41 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ HackEgo's share/UnicodeData.txt is still the newest from unicode.org
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00:44:29 <myname> zachtrpnics really knows how to nerdsnipe
00:45:28 <shachaf> What was that one command kind of like `url?
00:49:52 <oerjan> that's a very vague question
00:50:06 <oerjan> but either `paste or `hurl may do
00:51:30 <HackEgo> 2016-10-02 <oerjan> ` cp bin/{,h}url; sed -i \'11s/file/log/\' bin/hurl
00:51:46 <shachaf> Why is hoag called hoag, again?
00:51:56 <shachaf> hog -> hoag because of an added feature, perhaps
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01:12:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49874&oldid=49869 * Oerjan * (-37) Gah, this link broke the filter
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01:39:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/55]])
01:41:32 <myname> uh, mini metro is about to be released for mobile plattforms this month
01:41:35 <oerjan> i hope this doesn't break some other corner case when people aren't editing that page...
01:42:12 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I hope my latest abuse filter tweak doesn't break something else...
01:46:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:AngelicosPhosphoros]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49875 * Oerjan * (+287) Sorry for the trouble
01:50:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TuxCrafting]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49876 * Oerjan * (+304) Oops
01:51:15 <pikhq> Entropy's dimension is energy/temperature.
01:51:33 <pikhq> Ergo we should measure data in joules/kelvin.
01:54:03 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Perhaps, but I'm going for Planck. Is there a minimum temperature under Planck?
01:54:47 <oerjan> the planck units aren't necessarily minima or maxima
01:55:29 <pikhq> The non-derived ones *tend* to be.
01:55:35 <pikhq> The derived ones are all over the place.
01:56:11 <pikhq> The planck temperature does not seem to be the absolute maximum, but it is the absolute maximum that current theory can function on.
01:56:27 <pikhq> Greater than that and you need a working theory of quantum gravity, which we don't have, apparently.
01:56:41 <pikhq> There is a minimum temperature in Plack units. 0.
01:57:04 <hppavilion[1]> (the acceleration that gets you from 0 to c in 1 planck time flat)
01:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Correction: What's the minimum *difference* in temperature under Planck? The fancy version of degrees Fahrenheit (oh my god I spelled it right)/Celsius/Kelvin/Rankine
01:58:38 <pikhq> I don't know if there is a well known quanta of temperature.
01:58:55 <pikhq> A physicist rather than a physics amateur might help you there.
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02:01:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> `WELCOME dingbat <-- hm, after the links got shortened, they should be insensitive.
02:02:29 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/jeff*: No such file or directory
02:02:50 <hppavilion[1]> [physicist]: "¡Whew! ¿What's the temperature out here today?" [Man] "Uhh... (checks old-timey thermometer) negative 10." [physicist] "Really? Celsius or Fahrenheit?" [Man] "Kelvin" (Physicist promptly vanishes in a puff of logic)
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02:03:24 <oerjan> negative temperature has been claimed.
02:05:44 <pikhq> Within some closed systems with a very limited number of energy states, negative temperatures can start falling out of equations in very high energy states.
02:06:22 <pikhq> This doesn't happen with e.g. atoms, though.
02:09:17 <oerjan> i vaguely recall someone claiming that was just using the wrong definitions, though.
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02:26:47 <HackEgo> U+273D HEAVY TEARDROP-SPOKED ASTERISK \ UTF-8: e2 9c bd UTF-16BE: 273d Decimal: ✽ \ ✽ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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02:39:45 <HackEgo> [U+2731 HEAVY ASTERISK] [U+2732 OPEN CENTRE ASTERISK] [U+2733 EIGHT SPOKED ASTERISK] [U+2734 EIGHT POINTED BLACK STAR] [U+2735 EIGHT POINTED PINWHEEL STAR] [U+2736 SIX POINTED BLACK STAR] [U+2737 EIGHT POINTED RECTILINEAR BLACK STAR] [U+2738 HEAVY EIGHT POINTED RECTILINEAR BLACK STAR]
02:40:01 <hppavilion[1]> `` u8tbl 0x2731 0x2738 | sed 's/ //g' | unidecode | echo
02:40:01 <HackEgo> close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr
02:43:16 <HackEgo> [U+2731 HEAVY ASTERISK] [U+2732 OPEN CENTRE ASTERISK] [U+2733 EIGHT SPOKED ASTERISK] [U+2734 EIGHT POINTED BLACK STAR] [U+2735 EIGHT POINTED PINWHEEL STAR] [U+2736 SIX POINTED BLACK STAR] [U+2737 EIGHT POINTED RECTILINEAR BLACK STAR] [U+2738 HEAVY EIGHT POINTED RECTILINEAR BLACK STAR]
02:43:50 <hppavilion[1]> ...there weren't any spaces in it in the first place >.<
02:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> What's the name for a sort of set-clustering function? Given a set of values S and a function f from those values to something for which the concept of equality makes sense (i.e. most things), the f-cluster of S is a set of sets of values, grouped by those where f x is the same as all others in the set.
02:51:41 <HackEgo> 2016-10-07 <hppavilion[1]> mkx bin/u8tbli//unidecode `u8tbl $1 $2` \ 2016-10-07 <hppavilion[1]> mkx bin/u8tbli//unidecode `u8tbl $1 $2 | sed \'s/ //g\'` \ 2016-10-07 <hppavilion[1]> mkx bin/u8tbli//u8tbl $1 $2 | sed \'s/ //g\' | unidecode
02:55:22 <oerjan> `` echo $1; echo $2; echo hi
02:55:23 <HackEgo> echo $1; echo $2; echo hi \ \ hi
02:56:04 <oerjan> ("$@" is the usual way of saying that)
03:04:40 <HackEgo> echo `echo $1 $1` echo `echo $1 $1`
03:04:52 <HackEgo> echo `echo $1` $1 echo `echo $1` $1
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04:28:50 <imode> I kind of like the idea of the default looping construct for an esolang being a while(1) loop, with conditional breaks.
04:34:35 <imode> where anything between [] loops indefinitely, unless broken by an unconditional break ';' or a conditional break '?'. conditional blocks become a series of subloops that terminate early.
04:35:50 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16AYJ5H7Pr0
04:36:37 <imode> that video is exceptionally loud.
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04:58:57 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaMCvh5qzo8
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06:18:24 <izalove> http://i.imgur.com/lRcztwu.png
06:31:37 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I have to ask, is http://xkcd.com/713/ at all legally possible?
06:32:08 <pikhq> Legally? I don't see why not.
06:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I mean are there any remotely popular GeoIP databases that I can change my location in?
06:58:26 <hppavilion[1]> Would a solution to the 3-body problem give you Lagrange points for 3-object systems? Somehow?
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07:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> (cyclogram: a series of words satisfying the property that each word starts with the terminal letter of its predecessor. A chained cyclogram has the first word consider the last its predecessor)
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08:27:12 <hppavilion[1]> They can train rats to fear the smell of tasty fruits (with electric shocks)
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10:01:54 <myname> do you know about little albert?
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18:09:27 <myname> what do you think about a roguelike where you have two different characters and you can move either of them per turn
18:17:24 <shachaf> I had a dream about NetHack in which it gained an stylized sort of graphics modeled after the current ASCII.
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18:22:19 <shachaf> Another assembly game from Zachtronics.
18:22:42 <ybden> What's this one called?
18:25:44 <shachaf> http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/
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18:38:34 <ybden> That looks very cool
18:40:34 <pecan> “where every instruction can be conditionally executed” → it looks like x86 mixed with some old RISC designs
18:40:41 <myname> i wish they would port more gamea to android
18:41:21 <pecan> A lot of designs shortly after the berkley risc paper were like that
18:41:49 <myname> i thought arm dropped a lot of predicated instructions
18:42:01 <pecan> it's more like RISC-V
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19:21:43 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh my fucking god http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,946,647.PN.&OS=PN/5,946,647&RS=PN/5,946,647 is horrifying
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19:26:35 <\oren\> what, the length of the url is horrfying? I agree
19:27:13 <myname> so basically android repeatedly breaks that with their "oh, you try to open a link, let me open the right app for that"?
19:28:24 <\oren\> february 1996; that patent is expired
19:33:40 <FreeFull> The title and abstract of a patent don't tell you much, you have to look at the claims
19:34:11 <FreeFull> But yeah, looking at the claims, that patent is pretty bad
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19:36:03 <\oren\> anyway, maybe I should just implement the remaining subscript, superscript, and smallcap letters in my font ans submit to the Unicode Consortium
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19:36:38 <myname> wait, what do them have to do with fonts?
19:37:58 <\oren\> myname: the point is, I will assign them codepoints in my font and use that as a proposal for how to encode them
19:38:10 <\oren\> this is the usual system
19:38:23 <myname> so your font will become the definition
19:38:44 <\oren\> at least for those characters
19:39:25 <\oren\> i mean, subscript and superscript are a common thing, I'm just going to fill in the ones that heven't yet been encoded
19:39:41 <\oren\> superscript: CFQXYZ, q
19:43:07 <myname> i for one welcome our new unicode overlord
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19:50:39 <pecan> ^ someone else who gets it
19:51:05 * pecan had to remove unicode macro definitions from his code today because tricking gcc into supporting them is too annoying D:
19:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: IMHO, Unicode should just have characters that indicate "the nest character is to be printed in superscript/subscript"
19:55:32 <hppavilion[1]> You know what'd be great? An agglutinative system of profanity
19:56:24 * pecan throws a switch(x){Ǝ(1,2,3,{…})default:…} at ybden
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19:57:22 <hppavilion[1]> Dam: totally OK; Damn: honestly still OK except around people with no concept of curse levels
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19:59:00 * pecan . o O ( complex profanity system with honorifics for the difference in status between the speaker and the one being addressed )
19:59:32 <pecan> “damn, well done sir! – er, I mean damno! …shit”
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20:12:08 <pecan> I feel like “fuck” is too much of a generic catch-all in English, we need to take some cues from Russian.
20:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> pecan: But we'll also have a rule that correct use of profanity changes social status, so if you use the correct words too often they become incorrect
20:12:40 <pecan> Anyone who can get the system right all the time is very high status indeed.
20:13:00 <hppavilion[1]> pecan: And 'bitch' must be inflected to specify breed
20:14:24 <pecan> we should also use counting words for bitch, but the counting word should match the breed of bitch, e.g. “out of my way, heads of bitchows”
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20:19:49 <int-e> they're rebooting servers, it was announced in some global message...
20:20:24 <pecan`> hppavilion[1]: Yeah, like “20 heads of cattle”, they're pretty rare in english. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifier_(linguistics)
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20:20:56 <hppavilion[1]> pecan: I meant breeds as in dog breeds- bitch is a female dog
20:21:42 <pecan> Yeah, let's use different classifiers for different breeds (I just use “heads” because that's the only english counting word I'm aware of)
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20:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> So we distinguish between newfoundland bitch, golden retriever bitch, dachshund bitch, beagle bitch, poodle pitch, Scottish terrier bitch, etc.
20:23:06 <hppavilion[1]> ybden: 'pitch' is the conjucation of 'bitch' for poodles
20:24:02 <pecan> would it be a dachshund ditch or is a dachshund still a bitch
20:24:15 <myname> i know somebody with a price labeled "best german bitch"
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20:36:58 <\oren\> uh oh I hope I'm not going to provoke a flamewar
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20:41:31 <\oren\> moonythedwarf: I just said something controversial about unicode, how they aren't treating linguists equally with mathematicians
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20:41:50 <\oren\> they aren't giving thm big swathes of characters to play with
20:42:41 <\oren\> http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2016-m10/index.html
20:43:08 <\oren\> Hmm... "filling in Latin alphabet encoding gaps without clear use cases" is
20:43:08 <\oren\> exactly what was done for the blackboard bold letters.
20:43:08 <\oren\> I scarcely think that a use case was submitted for every one of the
20:43:08 <\oren\> blackboard bold etc letters in the mathematical set; merely the use of
20:43:08 <\oren\> blackboard bold for a general purpose of denoting sets such as the
20:43:10 <\oren\> naturals, reals, complex numbers etc, and the fact that arbitrary letters
20:43:13 <\oren\> might be used if a mathematician desired, seems to have sufficed.
20:43:28 <\oren\> ^ I said the above, it might have been harsh.
20:44:01 <\oren\> yes, I'm alot more eloquent in email than in irc
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20:50:51 <hppavilion[1]> Linguistic thing I need (might already exist, but needs to be invented if it doesn't): A BNF-like syntax for phonotactics
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20:51:17 <\oren\> why not just use BNF itself?
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20:54:20 <\oren\> i think many linguists might already be familiar with Backus-Naur Forms
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21:11:03 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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21:14:53 <\oren\> my email starting working once more and I got four emails in a row bing bing bing bing
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21:27:05 <\oren\> http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2016-m10/index.html
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21:53:17 <zzo38> Now I borrowed the GURPS books from the library, and I have added into FurryScript the ability to use "d" without a number to mean d6, for use with GURPS.
21:54:47 <zzo38> I would also need to add in the proper parts for the skill generator
21:55:00 <shachaf> zzo38: But d6 = 0, because 6 is a constant.
21:55:45 <zzo38> This is a different notation though where d6 means a six-sided dice
21:56:38 <\oren\> shachaf: 4d5 can never = 45
21:58:39 <shachaf> Is it either 1d2 or 2d2, depending on the outcome of the first flip?
21:59:47 <zzo38> That should be written (d2)d2 though, not as (d2)(d2)
22:01:09 <shachaf> Ah, and (d2)(d2) means flip two coins and multiply the results?
22:01:29 <shachaf> I should have written (d2)d(2)
22:02:16 <shachaf> So the meaning of dy/dx is apparent.
22:02:35 <zzo38> FurryScript does not currently support notations like that anyways; I will add them
22:03:18 <shachaf> Is there a meaning to 1.5d2?
22:04:59 <\oren\> uh oh, there's a mailstorm happening about email failures
22:05:57 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood).
22:06:21 <\oren\> yeah. people are replying to a giant mailing list
22:06:47 <shachaf> the joke is only about the proposed spelling
22:06:48 <\oren\> oh, the giant mailing list has been shut down. good
22:06:56 <shachaf> it's not very good, perhaps
22:07:09 <shachaf> but you're just dismissing it as not typed correctly, or what?
22:07:19 <\oren\> but the email system is still not working
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23:13:20 <zzo38> FurryScript dice notation now supports d without number, dice in parentheses, and multipliers; that is in addition to what it already supports (multiple terms, drop/keep lowest/highest, and glitches).
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23:14:21 <lambdabot> unexpected 'd': expecting operator or end of input
23:14:42 <lambdabot> unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input
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23:15:27 <lambdabot> unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input
23:16:02 <lambdabot> unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input
23:16:16 <zzo38> The skill generator already has some options (different costs per skill, different maximums, initial values, templated skills, dice in skills, cost increasing), but GURPS turns out to be more complicated than that, with mutually exclusive traits, limits that depend on other traits, and in some cases nonlinear costs.
23:16:23 <lambdabot> \oren\: 3 / 89 => 3/89 => 3.3708e-2
23:17:01 <\oren\> @dice 100d100 / 100d100
23:17:01 <lambdabot> \oren\: 5107 / 4790 => 5107/4790 => 1.0662
23:17:05 <\oren\> @dice 100d100 / 100d100
23:17:06 <lambdabot> \oren\: 4697 / 4929 => 4697/4929 => 0.9529
23:17:09 <\oren\> @dice 100d100 / 100d100
23:17:09 <lambdabot> \oren\: 4841 / 5280 => 4841/5280 => 0.9169
23:22:58 <zzo38> Version 13 with the new dice notation is now officially released and documented.
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23:38:47 <\oren\> Well, "treacherous" is right. I'd hesitate to trust an algorithm to
23:38:47 <\oren\> recognize PLANCK CONSTANT as the character name that logically fits
23:38:48 <\oren\> between MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL G and MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL I.
23:38:58 <\oren\> ^ Unicode mailing list hilarity
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00:00:24 <zzo38> How many points is fear of left-handed plumbers worth in GURPS?
00:01:09 <zzo38> No it is supposed to be a fixed number I think
00:01:19 <shachaf> What is the advantage of asking IRC rather than google.com?
00:01:31 <shachaf> It's slower and takes more work on other people's part.
00:02:04 <lambdabot> Title: GURPS: Generic Universal RolePlaying System
00:02:08 <shachaf> @google Seriously, what's GURPS?
00:02:10 <lambdabot> http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=34588
00:02:10 <lambdabot> Title: GURPS Mushroom Kingdom. No, I'm serious. - Steve Jackson Games Forums
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00:16:43 <hppavilion[1]> ...That's not a loophole, that's an intentional exception
00:18:51 <alercah> it's a loophole in that it allowed someone complicit in the killing to forgive it
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00:53:06 <zzo38> There does seem enough rules to define an attack that allows the target of the attack to make more quickly calculations for one minute but also stuns the target, but the attack can only be used if you are playing trumpet, and only five times per day. However, there seem to specification of if a power can be used only five times per week, or if the use is expended only in certain circumstances (such as if an attack hits, or if you aren't wearing a m
00:56:22 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Rule 1: s/m /mn / makes a profane word. <-- profane shmofane
00:57:57 <oerjan> (incidentally en:name = nynorsk:namn)
00:58:35 <oerjan> also swedish, google reminds me
01:00:11 * oerjan is reminded about the joke that the swedish definite suffixes are -fan (common) and -helvetet (neuter)
01:01:04 <oerjan> could work in norwegian too, i guess
01:01:50 <zzo38> I don't know Swedish grammar
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01:02:16 <oerjan> (those words actually mean Satan and Hell, respectively)
01:03:12 <oerjan> the former being a colloquial nick mostly used for swearing.
01:03:33 <pikhq> So, is Helvetica a hell font?
01:03:49 <oerjan> pikhq: to a scandinavian it definitely sounds that way
01:05:07 <oerjan> (the _actual_ definite suffixes are -(e)n/-an and -et, afair)
01:05:46 <oerjan> although my swedish grammar obviously has holes
01:06:11 * hppavilion[1] only recently learned that "Euler" is pronounced [ɔɪɫər] rather than [juːɫər]
01:06:30 <oerjan> hm not sure -an is not just -n after a word already ending in -a
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01:08:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ideally i think the final ər is usually ɐ in modern german
01:09:19 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonhard_Euler seems to agree, but depending on dialect
01:10:06 <oerjan> hm also i don't know where you get the ɫ from, afair german l is clear
01:10:21 <hppavilion[1]> ə = 1/e wouldn't be a particularly surprising definition
01:10:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's how I would pronounce it in my dialect, which is all I really know
01:10:59 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Ah, OK
01:11:04 <zzo38> Defining a power in GURPS that can be used twice per hour seems easy enough to do by using modifiers of -30% and x2, but then it costs more than unlimited use!
01:11:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ok. except i doubt you use the ipa [r]
01:11:33 <oerjan> that's a trilled alveolar r
01:12:14 <oerjan> some english dialects don't pronounce the r, i think. even rhotic ones may just color the vowel.
01:12:21 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm slowly learning to trill my r's; I finally found out the reason I can't is that trilled rs have to be based on an r made more like a dark l than a w)
01:13:45 <oerjan> i suppose [r] is acceptable in "broad" transcription.
01:13:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But [] isn't acceptable in broad transcription
01:13:59 <oerjan> the wikipedia ipa chart for english seems to use it.
01:16:24 <hppavilion[1]> "trilled r" is a stupid name; it should be "trilled r", but with the r rolled
01:17:43 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, the name of the letter for trilled r- 'r̃' is 'ar̃')
01:18:50 <hppavilion[1]> (yes, I went with 'r̃'. Spain & Mexico (& Portugese (& Brazil)) don't get a monopoly on tildes. We must take them for glory and honor, and so CNN changes their stupid logo for the spanish translation)
01:20:48 <oerjan> btw i've recently realized i can only trill with the right part of my tongue :P
01:23:20 <oerjan> or should that be, with my tongue shifted rightwards
01:24:15 <oerjan> i have a feeling this may be a recent development.
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01:31:44 <oerjan> it's in that stupid not-joined-the-channel state again
01:32:14 <shachaf> can HackEgo get a feature where it responds to /invite
01:32:46 <oerjan> also fizzie who can at least rejoin it
01:33:42 <oerjan> a feature where it actually joins the channel after connecting might also be nice hth
01:36:08 <oerjan> of course this is pretty much the most likely time for both of them to not be seen again for days
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03:09:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do any of the languages you regularly have to speak include trills?
03:10:02 <pikhq> "We present a proof of the conjecture NP=PSPACE [...]"
03:10:05 <pikhq> https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.09562 Bravo.
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03:17:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: technically "have to speak" only includes norwegian and english, so ... no, not obligatorily.
03:18:41 <oerjan> sometimes it feels natural in norwegian when singing, though. depends on the dialect of the song.
03:19:29 <oerjan> but mostly i've been noticing this because i've been trying to learn some russian songs, and russians apparently do trill.
03:19:37 <hppavilion[1]> (I figured there was a chance you also had to speak Danish or Swedish because you're near the border or something)
03:20:06 <oerjan> norwegians rarely change their language to danish or swedish.
03:20:14 <hppavilion[1]> (But then again, you could just speak Norwegian itself)
03:20:27 <oerjan> it's expected they'll understand norwegian.
03:20:45 <oerjan> and if they don't, many norwegians will prefer to use english.
03:20:53 <hppavilion[1]> I take it the Netherlands (Daneland?) is very islandic
03:21:11 <oerjan> i think most wouldn't even manage danish. its phonology is _weird_.
03:22:01 <oerjan> finns definitely get the english treatment.
03:25:30 <oerjan> pikhq> https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.09562 Bravo. <-- huh. the abstract does seem like they know their stuff. still might have an error, of course.
03:27:01 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh! 'absoluter' and 'absolutest' are actually valid comparatives for 'absolute'!
03:27:25 <hppavilion[1]> Not just in a 'you can say it and they'll get what you mean' way, but a 'actually honest-to-god acceptable way'
03:27:30 <pikhq> Yeah, of course. The submitter appears to be a legit, published CS researcher in this space, but what that means is I'm listening, not that I assume it's inerrant, given that it's just published on arxiv at this point. :)
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03:27:56 <oerjan> pikhq: huh wait, if its true this means the polynomial hierarchy collapses. a _lot_ of research is going out the window...
03:28:45 <pikhq> Yeah, it does turn a few of the "X subset of Y" into "X = Y = Z".
03:29:18 <oerjan> not just that, there are many theorems of the form "if this were true then the polynomial hierarchy would collapse".
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03:30:19 <oerjan> e.g. i think "graph isomorphism is NP-complete" is one such.
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03:33:49 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> I take it the Netherlands (Daneland?) is very islandic <-- um are you mixing two countries...
03:34:10 <oerjan> denmark is pretty islandic, but also has a continental part.
03:34:20 <pikhq> oerjan: So, that leaves us with, what, P=NP as the last polynomial hierarchy question?
03:34:38 <pikhq> *P=?NP, probably better way to write it
03:36:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: a little more down to the left hth
03:36:49 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, if we assume that ≤ is just a weird way of writing ⊆, then that's actually correct
03:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> Danish is spoken in Daneland, the same way English is spoken in England, Scottish in Scotland, Irish in Ireland, Spanish in Spain, and Green in Greenland
03:41:22 <pikhq> And Pakish is spoken in Pakistan, Afghanish in Afghanistan, Kazakhish in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzish in Kyrgyzstan, Tajikish in Tajikistan, Uzbekish in Uzbekistan, and Turkmenish in Turkmenistan?
03:41:41 <pikhq> Oh, fine, and Hindush in Hindustan.
03:46:05 <hppavilion[1]> Proposal: System of naming more general than just "<Given Name> {<bonus name>} <Surname> [<numeral>]"
03:46:32 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of just [personal name, family name], you have a hierarchy
03:47:39 <hppavilion[1]> Something like [ancestry, clan, segment, household, personal] (note the reversed order)
03:48:54 <hppavilion[1]> So as to indicate more than just family-person; it also includes segment (which is a small area of the family- like yourself and close cousins), clan (which is just the extended family as far as one is concerned), and ancestry (...whatever, maybe it's just national origin or something?)
03:53:17 <hppavilion[1]> History Rewrite: Georg Cantor is an abbreviation; he actually had uncountably many surnames.
03:54:04 <pikhq> So, you're suggesting that names should actually be cladistic.
03:54:39 <zzo38> Apparently in some places they do common have two given name and two surname
03:55:18 <pikhq> Clearly all names should start with "Animalia chordata synapsida mammalia primates haplorhini hominidae homo sapiens sapiens".
03:55:32 <zzo38> And, some people use their middle name as their commonly used name instead of their first name
03:55:47 <pikhq> Well, that's missing a few.
03:56:23 <zzo38> pikhq: In contexts where names for creatures with multiple species are common then I suppose it might be useful, but even then it would be abbreviated since you aren't going to write all of that.
03:56:41 <zzo38> (I don't know what circumstances that would even be, but maybe there are some.)
03:57:10 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Well, clades terminate automatically; you don't go back TOO far
03:57:20 <pikhq> Phytae eukaryota opisthokonta are missing, as well as bilateria deuterostomia.
03:57:38 <pikhq> But I like the clade including all life!
03:57:39 <hppavilion[1]> (The rule would likely be if you're going beyond the fourth level above given name, you're overdoing it)
03:57:51 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yeah, it's always bugged me that there isn't a term for that
03:58:04 <pikhq> Phytae is probably the best name for it.
03:58:22 <hppavilion[1]> So we'll have something different to call alien life with no biological cladicity to us
03:58:41 <pikhq> Though to account for xenobiology, gaiaphytae
03:58:50 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: But the problem with treating it as a clade is that people come from other families too
04:00:02 <pikhq> Right, family != clade, really.
04:00:23 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Some city in the US should declare itself to be male, so everyone has to say 'brother city' )
04:00:25 <pikhq> It's also a real poor fit for things like adoption, because as it turns out human notions of "family" are only correlated with genetic relation.
04:01:48 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: My younger sister is adopted, but I occasionally forget this and try to apply genetics
04:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> And she's Chinese, so it's not like ANYBODY thinks we're genetically related
04:02:52 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, actually, I mentioned to someone at school that she's Chinese the other day- she's been sick recently and we think it might be lactose- and the person said "wait, you're Chinese?")
04:03:04 <pikhq> Well, except in the sense that there exists a unique smallest clade containing you and your younger sister.
04:03:22 <oerjan> pikhq: phyta technically is plural already and means "plants" hth
04:03:34 <pikhq> oerjan: I speak not greek, and boy does it show.
04:03:52 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh duh, that'd be some variant of "bio", wouldn't it?
04:03:54 <oerjan> well neither do i, but i can search wiktionary
04:04:04 <hppavilion[1]> (Obviously no one here knows what I look like, but my father is pretty much entirely Norwegian by ancestry, and my mother is a "northern-European mutt")
04:04:41 <pikhq> It contains a substantial portion of the species, yes.
04:05:08 <pikhq> Maybe not all of it, but definitely a lot of it.
04:05:14 <hppavilion[1]> I'm probably more related to Elon Musk than to her by genetics
04:05:49 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, unless we're both direct descendants of Marco Polo or something
04:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh, the "McWhatever" thing in Irish tradition is a shorthand for 'son of Whomever', but there also existed for a while 'NcWhatever' for girls
04:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> Though really, if you want to use '-son' except as an archaic remaining prefix, you really have to nest
04:08:47 <hppavilion[1]> Robert Erick John Joseph Peter Jose` Michael Albert Donaldsonsonsonsonsonsonsonsonson
04:09:27 <oerjan> the icelandic still use -dóttir
04:09:55 <oerjan> of course most of them don't _have_ family names.
04:10:06 <pikhq> The Icelandics still directly use patronymic surnames, no?
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04:10:56 <oerjan> (what do you do when someone asks you a question you just answered simultaneously?)
04:11:07 <hppavilion[1]> I do believe that when people get married, SOMEBODY should change their name
04:11:28 <oerjan> maybe the priest can do it
04:11:29 <pikhq> oerjan: In IRC, I think the polite thing to do is just let it go.
04:11:46 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: I don't see why.
04:11:49 <oerjan> priests have their names extended every time they marry someone.
04:11:59 <pikhq> Though I like oerjan's version.
04:12:01 <hppavilion[1]> I don't care if the woman takes the man's name or the man takes the woman's name or they combine them or both hyphenate or make up something new
04:12:35 * imode wonders if john jacob jingleheimer schmidt was a priest.
04:13:12 <hppavilion[1]> But I would like them to have the SAME last name (exception: If G1 S1 and G2 S2 get married and choose to hyphenate, they can go with G1 S1-S2 and G2 S2-S1)
04:13:41 <pikhq> Why, precisely, other than tradition?
04:14:05 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: No utilitarian purpose, but it's nice to be able to generally tell which people are married
04:14:41 <pikhq> Clearly we should replace surnames with UUIDs.
04:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: UUIDs? But we want to be able to see relations
04:15:48 <hppavilion[1]> (And if you send a letter to people with different last names, you have to awkwardly say "Prefix [Firstname] Lastname & Prefix [Firstname] Lastname" instead of "Prefix & Prefix Lastname"
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04:16:57 <hppavilion[1]> Also, this way there's no confusion over which name any resulting children take, and there is the symbolic aspect of them forming a family (by a definition of family that includes childless married couples)
04:18:08 <zzo38> In Japan it is mandatory for married people to have the same name (although they can choose what name that will be).
04:28:17 <zzo38> (And apparently in Quebec it is prohibited)
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04:32:31 <zzo38> (They say it is for reason of "woman's right", but that is nonsense.)
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04:35:47 <zzo38> My JavaScript object-serializer package can now serialize weak maps/sets (but only for keys found elsewhere by traversing the object being serialized; this includes values of weak maps where the keys have previously been found).
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05:33:37 <imode> what would be some machine models that aren't a glorified register or stack based architecture?
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05:34:46 <imode> seems like it all boils down to either one..
05:35:03 <zzo38> Perhaps the Turing machine which uses only states and not registers or stacks, but it does use a tape.
05:35:12 <zzo38> Does a tape count anyways?
05:35:23 <imode> a tape kind of counts. it just substitutes random access with sequential access.
05:39:09 <imode> I guess I'm looking for something that a 10 year old could understand.
05:41:10 <shachaf> imode: The Mill has a belt, which is FIFO rather than LIFO, rather than registers or a stack.
05:42:05 <imode> shachaf: got an example "assembly" for this Mill?
05:42:39 <shachaf> You can read some at http://millcomputing.com/topic/introduction-to-the-mill-cpu-programming-model-2/
05:43:02 <shachaf> An effect of this belt model is that actual Mill assembly is very hard to write by hand.
05:43:12 <imode> that's a killer, then.
05:43:16 <shachaf> So there's an intermediate assembly that people actually write, so they don't have to think about belt addressing.
05:43:33 <shachaf> I don't know how hard it actually is in practice.
05:43:35 <imode> I'm interested in the lowest possible level of abstraction. closer to the machine you are, closer you are to the hardware attached to the machine.
05:53:50 <zzo38> Has the present king of France stopped robbing banks yet?
05:55:32 <shachaf> what about the present king of the north pole
05:56:14 <imode> better than the auto king of the north pole.
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06:29:30 <Cale> Anyone played Shenzhen I/O yet? Looks pretty interesting :)
06:32:08 <hppavilion[1]> HackEgnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
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06:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a practically-standard *nix command (that works in the same syntax in all shells) to say "what shell am I using"?
06:58:33 <zzo38> Does "echo $0" work?
06:59:02 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: https://github.com/stephane-chazelas/misc-scripts/blob/master/which_interpreter or http://stchaz.free.fr/which_interpreter or https://raw.github.com/mauke/poly.poly/master/poly.poly
06:59:11 <zzo38> On my computer it prints "bash"
06:59:24 <izalove> zzo38: run sh and then use echo $0
06:59:32 <zzo38> Also try "help", perhaps
07:01:03 <pikhq> I'd be happier if it were also a valid COM executable though. :P
07:01:13 <izalove> you're asking too much <.<
07:01:32 <pikhq> Yeah, it's a bit hard making a COM polyglot.
07:03:05 <pikhq> That trigraph detection bit is quite nice, IMO.
07:03:26 <izalove> there was something similar to which_interpreter on https://www.mirbsd.org/ but i can't find it...
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07:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> (I believe I was taught about a pentagraph in 1th-2th grade; ought)
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07:52:03 <\oren\> for some reason I decided to stream meyself on youtube playing toho, and ended up beating my high score
07:54:00 <\oren\> why do I always play toho the best when it's like 3 am
07:56:50 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I entirely saw that coming, and thus had a plan
07:57:38 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: see https://twitter.com/dril/status/384408932061417472 hth
08:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> I want my client to beep, but only when a message is sent directly to me
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08:30:35 <zzo38> I would think not?
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08:41:07 <shachaf> Speech bubbles inside text would involve text saying other text, perhaps.
08:41:23 * shachaf . o O ( speech bubbles don't, but thought bubbles do )
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08:41:44 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, like speech bubbles in comics; do the speech bubbles count as punctuation in the dialogue?
08:42:03 <shachaf> Did you learn linear algebra yet?
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09:06:00 <hppavilion[1]> "Fire Consumes Big Happy Farm Where Families Send Sick Dogs To Run Free And Play"
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09:17:23 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when one combines a Sci-Fi setting with Fantasy characters?
09:17:38 <hppavilion[1]> So, like, elves and dwarves and gnomes, but in a megafuture.
09:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> (And not in a "it turns out there are elf-aliens" way; more in a "what? We've always had elves. This is normal" way)
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10:07:25 <int-e> shachaf: No, I still haven't finished Spider & Web. And I can't even play TIS 100 atm... this laptop I'm using messes up the graphics.
10:08:04 <shachaf> text games have lower system requirements hth
10:09:08 <int-e> I mean, look at this: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/tis100.png
10:09:52 <int-e> no clue how that's happening.
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10:50:28 <fizzie> int-e: That's a fairly good approximation of the correct image, though.
10:50:45 <fizzie> I mean, if you compare to uniformly random pixels, for example.
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10:58:39 <izalove> how much should i care about this? ==5072== still reachable: 1 bytes in 1 blocks
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11:01:19 <int-e> fizzie: yes, it'd be barely playable even, but not enjoyable...
11:02:09 <int-e> izalove: start over from scratch!!!1eleven
11:03:24 <int-e> (seriously, no clue, it depends very much on the context)
11:04:31 <int-e> I guess I would generally like to know where that 1 byte was allocated.
11:05:43 <izalove> too bad clang's asan is broken on arch linux
11:05:55 <izalove> and gcc's isn't that useful https://arin.ga/n58Wca/raw
11:09:34 <izalove> really tired of this broken system
11:10:24 <izalove> it's supposed to be a bleeding edge distro and this bug https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/50366 is almost 3 months old
11:10:51 <izalove> and i have to manually build newer versions of several packages because the official repos are old
11:11:23 <izalove> bash for example, has been flagged out of date for a month
11:14:56 <int-e> debian just closed a 10 years old bug of mine :P
11:15:43 <int-e> (in xsok... which should not be a high priority for anybody)
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11:50:58 <myname> sudden epiphany: what if trump supporters are just huge fans of bpston legal?
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15:44:52 <lambdabot> CYQB 081400Z 35003KT 30SM -SHRA BKN050 OVC090 14/12 A3000 RMK SC7AC1 SLP160
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16:02:00 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
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16:24:35 <fungot> boily: ah- he didn't convey that to me in a couple of useful drivers and it may crash because the whole reason fold exists.
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16:36:21 <boily> Gregor: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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17:12:17 <quintopia> im closer to canada than ive been in 3 years. where are the maples?
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17:53:08 <moonythedwarf_> zzo38: your tip for node.js sandboxing works absolutly perfectly.
17:53:23 -!- otherbot has joined.
17:53:45 <moonythedwarf_> -js Function.constructor.constructor("return process.exit()")
17:53:45 <otherbot> function anonymous() { | return process.exit() | }
17:53:45 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function: Buffer], | EventEmitter: [Function: EventEmitter], | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] } }
17:53:51 <moonythedwarf_> -js Function.constructor.constructor("return process.exit()")()
17:53:51 <otherbot> 'Error: process.exit() is not allowed'
17:54:11 <moonythedwarf_> -js Function.constructor.constructor("return process.getuid()")()
17:54:11 <otherbot> 'TypeError: process.getuid is not a function'
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17:54:55 <zzo38> moonythedwarf_: O, it does? OK
17:55:28 <quintopia> zzo38: what is your favorite part of canada
17:55:39 <zzo38> quintopia: British Columbia, I suppose
17:55:58 <zzo38> moony: But you have Buffer and EventEmitter in there.
17:56:10 <moony> zzo38: me and iovoid made it outselves
17:56:17 <moony> they are custom copies of them.
17:56:24 <moony> not the real ones.
17:56:36 <zzo38> Ah, OK then, it will work OK.
17:57:05 <oerjan> . o O ( i'll have Nunavut )
17:57:13 <iovoid> Many of NodeJS core things are wrappers
17:57:48 <moony> zzo38: here is the SRC for the entirity of the little trick: http://pastebin.com/jU0MjyBd
17:58:02 <moony> that file is just appended to the beginning of user input
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17:58:44 <zzo38> Is the code available?
17:58:57 <moony> for the faked buffer?
17:58:59 <quintopia> oerjan: i'm going to be at canada tomorrow, so I wondered if zzo38 would have any thoughts on ontario
17:58:59 <moony> http://pastebin.com/jU0MjyBd
17:59:31 <moony> the code that runs the sandbox itself requires a working copy of the bot. i have a bundle avaliabkle for that (stripped down to only 2 plugins).
18:00:09 <zzo38> I don't need to run it
18:00:21 <moony> ill pastebin the base code.
18:00:24 <zzo38> I only wanted to see how it is implemented
18:01:02 <moony> http://pastebin.com/Y617Nure
18:01:48 <moony> if you have any recommendations, please tell me.
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18:06:35 <zzo38> Converting the output to a string inside of the sandbox (and guaranteeing that is a string) may work better; this can avoid evading the timeout.
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18:06:48 <moony> oh hmm your right.
18:07:59 <moony> is 'out = new vm.Script(corescript+"(()=>{"+args.join(" ")+"})().toString()").runInContext(context, {timeout:2000,filename:"sandbox"});' better?
18:08:23 <otherbot> An error occured while processing your command: TypeError: Can't add property 2, object is not extensible
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18:11:01 <zzo38> To be more safe you might also want to check that the result actually is a string (depending on the implementation of bot.sendMsg, it might or might not be so important); the way you have it now anyways, the user script might make out.toString().replace(/(\r\n|\r|\n)/g, " | ").substr(0,500) into something other than a string, or into a string longer than 500 characters, or containing control characters.
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18:17:52 <moony> i've moved string conversion inside. ill test for string next
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18:19:16 <moony> -js var a = 1+1; return a+1;
18:19:17 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function: Buffer], | EventEmitter: [Function: EventEmitter], | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] } }
18:19:48 <moony> -js var a = 1+1; a.toString = () => {return ()=>{}}; return a
18:19:48 <otherbot> Output not a string! Canceling return output
18:25:19 <zzo38> I also thought about accessor properties, but it turns out that the sandbox mechanism already prevents accessor properties set on the global object of the sandbox from leaking, so there isn't a problem.
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18:33:31 <oerjan> hmph lots of logs missing today.
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19:15:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BlueOkiris * New user account
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19:54:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49882&oldid=49880 * BlueOkiris * (+241) /* Introductions */
19:54:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49883 * BlueOkiris * (+3092) Added description and example programs
20:06:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49884&oldid=49883 * BlueOkiris * (+182)
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20:08:17 <\oren\> I just spent 2 hours stacking wood
20:08:49 <\oren\> I did a poor job and some of it fell ovr
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21:22:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:BlueOkiris]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49885 * BlueOkiris * (+308) Created page with "Ive been programming since I was 8. I want to be an electrical/computer engineer because I love to build and create everything from robots to smart watches to programming lang..."
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21:30:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49886&oldid=49845 * BlueOkiris * (+10) /* N */
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22:01:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49887&oldid=49884 * BlueOkiris * (+12) /* Description */
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22:18:36 <zzo38> How to set multiple tab stops with vim?
22:18:50 <zzo38> (Rather than the same amount for all tab stops)
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22:28:01 <FireFly> zzo38: I don't thnk it's possible
22:35:20 <fizzie> All I could find was a patch that never seems to have gotten anywhere: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/vim_dev/eNOQO06iRZQ
22:35:33 <fizzie> Though https://github.com/chrisbra/vim-mq-patches seems to have a up-to-dateish version.
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22:47:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49888&oldid=49887 * BlueOkiris * (+316) /* Turing Completeness */
22:57:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49889&oldid=49888 * BlueOkiris * (+376) /* Op Codes */
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23:18:38 <zzo38> What is the Italian word for a pitch bend (as in music)?
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23:19:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49890&oldid=49889 * BlueOkiris * (-147)
23:20:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49891&oldid=49890 * BlueOkiris * (+67) /* Turing Completeness */
23:21:20 <quintopia> how goes the calesyna or w/e plans
23:23:17 <lynn> zzo38: portamento
23:24:43 <ais523> quintopia: I have plenty of plans, but haven't got that far in implementing them
23:25:02 <ais523> the language I'm working on took me a couple of days before I thought it was likely to be TC
23:25:04 <ais523> and I still haven't prooved it
23:26:07 <oerjan> . o O ( ais523 uses logic on english grammar. it is super ineffective. )
23:27:09 <ais523> one problem with this language is that I pretty much need to write a syntax highlighter to have any clue how a program works
23:27:32 <ais523> and unlike other langauges with that property, like Whitespace, it doesn't work very well with existing syntax highlighting engines
23:27:38 <ais523> because any part of the program can affect how every other part is parsed
23:27:58 <alercah> is the language specified anywhere?
23:28:02 <oerjan> lots of new wiki accounts
23:28:24 <APic> ,o0(Accidentially i the Grammar)
23:28:42 <ais523> alercah: I'm not sure if it should be public before the competition closes
23:29:00 <alercah> oh I wasn't aware there's a competition
23:29:06 <ais523> you're allowed to enter as a team, but because there's the possibility of a btc prize, forming a team seems like it might lead to potential arguments if we actually win
23:29:16 <ais523> alercah: http://calesyta.xyz/en
23:29:44 <alercah> probably I'm at the terminal phi node
23:30:10 <ais523> "We value novel or interesting ideas in language design. No one cares about another variant of Brainf*ck. We are interested in exploring the language design space and mining its full potential."
23:30:25 <ais523> these people clearly have some idea of how esolang design normally goes :-D
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00:12:01 <boily> mhelloonythellodwarf_
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00:12:14 <ais523> boily: wait, here does the e half of œ come from?
00:14:49 <boily> his523! it comes from œrjan hth
00:16:00 <ais523> boily: yes but he is't called Ͽrjan
00:16:08 <ais523> you doubled the vowel there
00:16:18 <ais523> may as well be complete and call him oϿerjan :-P
00:16:32 <boily> good idea. I like vowels.
00:17:42 <ais523> hmm, how else could you write that vowel? ö?
00:17:48 <ais523> not really the same though
00:17:56 <ais523> but ö is sometimes written oe in German
00:18:44 <oerjan> `learn œrjan is oerjan and ørjan's superhero third cousin (once removed) from Québec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl.
00:18:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'œrjan': œrjan is oerjan and ørjan's superhero third cousin (once removed) from Québec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl.
00:18:58 <oerjan> `learn œrjan is oerjan and ørjan's superhero third cousin (once removed) from Québec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl.
00:19:01 <HackEgo> Relearned 'œrjan': œrjan is oerjan and ørjan's superhero third cousin (once removed) from Québec. he got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl.
00:19:09 <ais523> wait, is ørjan the evil twin or the good twin?
00:19:16 <boily> `` sed -i 's/\. h/. H/' wisdom/œrjan
00:19:28 <boily> ais523: all the oerjantwins are evil hth
00:19:31 <HackEgo> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
00:19:44 <boily> ↑ especially that one. very evil.
00:20:10 <oerjan> how dare you defend that do-gooder!
00:22:42 <oerjan> `learn Örjan is oerjan's Nazi clone. He helps run the secret base on the backside of the moon.
00:22:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'Örjan': Örjan is oerjan's Nazi clone. He helps run the secret base on the backside of the moon.
00:24:01 <oerjan> `` slwd 'Örjan//s/./ö/'; mv wisdom/{Ö,ö}rjan
00:24:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/Örjan//örjan is oerjan's Nazi clone. He helps run the secret base on the backside of the moon.
00:24:32 <ais523> hmm, I'm not sure I like nazi jokes in the learndb
00:24:49 <oerjan> i did nazi that coming.
00:24:51 <ais523> (or, well, I'm sure I don't like them, and I'm not sure I even find them acceptable)
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00:57:15 <Jafet> I'm sure orwell didn't like the nazis either
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01:13:19 <APic> What makes You so sure?
01:13:57 <APic> Without Satire, no free Speech.
01:14:15 <APic> Also, _we_ do live on the Moon.
01:14:21 <APic> Which is made out of green Cheese.
01:14:36 <APic> What _they_ tell us shall be the Moon is the actual Earth.
01:14:55 <APic> „I got transferred to the Moon — Worse Pay, better Hours.“ — Was (not was)
01:31:40 <boily> `le/rn örjan/Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters.
01:36:08 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
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01:40:25 <boily> moonythedwarf_: as you can see, I am sane. this is important.
01:41:44 <oerjan> and have you dispensed any recently
01:43:50 <boily> these were Roujoistic.
01:44:04 <boily> yes, I dealt cards.
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01:51:06 <boily> fungot: do you make sense?
01:51:06 <fungot> boily: uh-oh!! i want my else not to start so late
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02:08:56 <HackEgo> certainly//We don't know what certainly is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
02:09:43 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2015-08-13 <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2013-07-31 <Bike> revert \ 2013-07-31 <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a
02:09:58 <HackEgo> 2013-03-04 <Jafet> cp wisdom/certain{t,l}y && sed -i \'s/ty/ly/\' wisdom/certainly \ 2013-03-12 <Sgeo> revert 2243 \ 2013-03-12 <elliott> revert 2416 \ 2013-07-31 <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ 2013-07-31 <Bike> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2015-08-12 <ais523> echo w
02:10:13 <shachaf> `slwd certainly//s#at least it#it certainly#
02:10:15 <HackEgo> wisdom/certainly//We don't know what certainly is for sure, but it certainly isn't a functor.
02:10:20 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
02:10:33 <shachaf> Oh, is this a modal logic thing?
02:10:48 <shachaf> Someone please decide whether to revert that.
02:11:21 <ais523> the modal logic thing is more often called necessarily
02:11:48 <oerjan> `slwd certainty//s/at least/we have certainty that/
02:11:50 <HackEgo> wisdom/certainty//We don't know what certainty is for sure, but we have certainty that it isn't a functor.
02:15:03 <shachaf> I think the modal logic thing is a functor, too.
02:15:56 <shachaf> gain certainty until end of turn
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02:38:59 <shachaf> "The prime minister of Norway was caught playing Pokemon Go in parliament"
02:49:11 <MDude> Aw sweet, we can catch elected representatives as pokemon now?
02:49:36 <pikhq> Gotta elect 'em all!
02:57:06 <zzo38> Why does the HD version of the new episodes of Murdoch Mystery on CBC always lack captions? It only happens on CBC, only on the HD CBC, and only for episodes playing for the first time. The SD CBC does not have this problem.
03:04:22 <zzo38> Also, the commercials still have captions both on HD and SD.
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03:23:17 <zzo38> It look to me Klingon transliteration is unambiguous but is not a prefix code; a parser for transliterated Klingon text may need to change part of its previous output if "h" is read.
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03:31:24 <oerjan> <shachaf> "The prime minister of Norway was caught playing Pokemon Go in parliament" <-- ah that explains that joke page (a norwegian onion-alike) i saw. * follows norwegian comics pages but not news...
03:31:49 <shachaf> oerjan: this is closer to comics than news anyway hth
03:33:19 <oerjan> occasionally i make a typo that just needs to be there hth
03:34:23 <shachaf> especially this particular one
03:34:27 <shachaf> you're practically a turing machine
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03:37:15 <oerjan> det er bare å ture frem
03:39:50 <oerjan> shachaf: no, that would be "turer"
03:40:04 <oerjan> except possibly in danish
03:40:12 <shachaf> Of course I'm referring to Danish.
03:40:21 <oerjan> this nobel peace prize seems badly timed.
03:43:46 <oerjan> i'm not familiar with those words hth
03:44:03 <lambdabot> *** "flan" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:44:03 <lambdabot> n 1: open pastry filled with fruit or custard
03:44:15 <oerjan> well i know flan. not flån.
03:44:33 <shachaf> ˚ doesn't mean anything hth
03:44:48 <oerjan> flå'n could be a contraction meaning "flay him"
03:44:57 <shachaf> scandinavians put it on top of their letters to seem mysterious
03:46:23 <oerjan> apparently flån is a swedish lake name (multiple).
03:48:44 <shachaf> Sweden has a lot of lakes, though.
03:48:47 <shachaf> So that doesn't really count.
03:49:02 <shachaf> whoa, Norway has even more.
03:52:51 <oerjan> i'm not sure there are many that are private.
03:53:09 <oerjan> so there's probably not much of a market.
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05:32:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MatheusAvellar * New user account
05:46:54 <ais523> how do you express the complexity class n×log²(n) in C syntax? n*(log*log)(n)? n*log(n)*log(n)? invent an exponentiation operator/
05:47:00 <ais523> err, this is for a comment inside a C program
05:48:26 <ais523> I guess I could just use a unicode ² but some compilers might be confused by that
05:50:34 <imode> n*log(n)*log(n) reduces to n*log^2(n).
05:50:55 <ais523> imode: I know, was just hoping it abbreviated somehow
05:51:08 <ais523> also looking at this I'm not sure it's the correct complexity class anyway
05:51:10 <imode> you could use ^. :P
05:52:04 <imode> we appropriate symbols for different purposes. blame our character sets.
05:52:17 <zzo38> Some programming language use ** for exponents
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05:52:48 <zzo38> (Even JavaScript now does, I think; not everything implement it though)
05:54:03 <ais523> I considered ** because it's mostly unambiguous
05:55:40 <zzo38> (Neither Node.js nor Firefox implements ** exponent operator; it is a ES7 feature and ES7 is not implemented yet, and is a draft anyways)
05:57:58 <ais523> I think Perl implements ** for exponentiation
05:58:12 <zzo38> But what programming language will be *** and **** some standard operator of numbers too?
06:00:53 <ais523> if * is multiplication and ** is exponentiaton, you'd expect *** to be tetration
06:01:19 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration
06:02:05 <ais523> huh, tetration's defined for complex tetrs as well as integers, how surprising
06:02:58 <ais523> (it's clearly defined for complex bases, in general)
06:08:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49892&oldid=49882 * MatheusAvellar * (+392) Add my short description
06:08:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49893&oldid=23401 * MatheusAvellar * (+4520) Create Set page
06:15:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49894&oldid=49893 * MatheusAvellar * (+1612) Add example codes
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06:20:50 <ais523> oh wow, I think I found a great name for my CALESYTA language
06:21:18 <ais523> according to Wiktionary, it has four meanings, three of them are relevant to the semantics, and the fourth is a typical "this language is horrible" esolang name
06:22:06 <pecan> ais523: do you happen to work on anything nethack-related, by any chance? you look familiar.
06:22:35 <ais523> pecan: I'm on the NetHack devteam, and maintain NetHack 4 (the community attempt to bring NetHack while the official devteam weren't working on it)
06:22:54 <ais523> also I'm one of the people in charge of the NetHack TAS, and used to work on TAEB (a NetHack bot)
06:23:08 <ais523> might be easier to ask what NetHack-related things I don't work on :-P
06:23:32 <pecan> Ah ha, knew I'd seen you in #nethack or something.
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06:25:55 <shachaf> But that was a long time ago.
06:26:14 <shachaf> Maybe I should try NetHack 3.6.0
06:27:03 <ais523> I'm not 100% convinced it's an improvement
06:27:09 <ais523> it has quite a few controversial changes
06:27:26 <ais523> OTOH, the changes are also not uncontroversially bad
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06:28:54 <ais523> shachaf: a few exploits were removed, it's harder if you used them, it's not that much harder if you didn't
06:29:13 <shachaf> I think there were a few widely-used things like that.
06:29:13 <ais523> there was a change made to the movement formula that makes the game universally slightly harder, I've been trying to get that reversed
06:29:22 <pikhq_> Some day, that TAS will be finished.
06:29:23 <shachaf> I guess Elbereth still exists, just weakened.
06:29:49 <pikhq_> Well, okay, there was an April 1st submission that's basically a WIP of it.
06:30:04 <ais523> shachaf: I asked the NetHack learndb bot to tell you how Elbereth had changed
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06:30:52 <shachaf> I read the changelog, I have a general idea.
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08:13:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ouroboros]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49895 * Dlosc * (+4925) Created page for Ouroboros
08:14:01 <hppavilion[1]> Pretty sure that's from grecko-roman mythology, but not sure what it is
08:15:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49896&oldid=49886 * Dlosc * (+16) Added Ouroboros
08:21:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49897&oldid=49892 * Hppavilion1 * (+251) Introduction.
08:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49898&oldid=49897 * Hppavilion1 * (+209) IRC plug
08:22:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49899&oldid=47302 * Dlosc * (+125) Added Ouroboros
08:22:55 <shachaf> There's an [[Introduce yourself]] page, but no [[Introduce Shachaf]] page?
08:23:00 <shachaf> That seems kind of one-sided.
08:23:19 <hppavilion[1]> ...I feel there's a joke here, but I'm not sure what
08:24:11 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Is it the page for EVERYBODY to introduce you?
08:25:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49900&oldid=49021 * Dlosc * (+30) Added Ouroboros
08:26:07 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: heh, did you try to edit the introduction to the page without introducing first?
08:26:22 <ais523> so far that page has been really effective against spambots
08:26:46 <ais523> one theory we have is that the human captcha solvers can't see the old content of the page when editing through the spambot interface
08:27:07 <ais523> so all the introductions from non-spambots make the page a moving target
08:27:22 <hppavilion[1]> I assumed that users who had already made edits and were non-terrible had been autoconfirmed.
08:27:24 <ais523> although we know that the human captcha solvers can browse to pages manually
08:27:46 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: users who have already made edits shouldn't be hit by the "please introduce yourself" warning
08:28:15 <ais523> however, oerjan recently changed edits to the page to hit anyone who tries to edit it in a way that would break the introduce-yourself detection
08:28:18 <ais523> so that might be what happened
08:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Alternative idea: Require someone to solve an impossible math problem to join. You may only join if you say it's impossible :P
08:28:48 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, does anyone here watch Stephen Colbert's show?
08:29:00 <ais523> btw, I'm not sure I agree with your edit
08:29:19 <ais523> you can get a good idea of why someone's here from their introduce-yourself post, and many people don't like interacting with IRC
08:29:28 <ais523> like, I object to the way that the introduction is "not actual"
08:29:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49901&oldid=49695 * Dlosc * (+54) Added Ouroboros
08:29:47 <ais523> maybe I'll keep the sentiment but tone it down somewhat
08:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Ah, yes, I tried to put it there in such a way that it was just a plug rather than anything else :P
08:30:05 <hppavilion[1]> I actually used the wiki for several months before I noticed that there's an IRC channel
08:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> (I wasn't even an IRC user before, but I felt I needed to for nerd cred)
08:31:20 <hppavilion[1]> Stephen Colbert has a segment called "Big Furry Hat" in which he... wears a big furry hat
08:31:51 <ais523> hmm, now oerjan's filter changes are preventing me reverting you
08:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> And he makes proclamations that are from that point onwards law (e.g. "Anyone who shoots cell phone video vertically will be fed into a woodchipper horizontally")
08:32:01 <ais523> I guess I'll just override the filter for a moment
08:32:27 <hppavilion[1]> But I actually started invoking the Big Furry Hat in formal mathematical proofs
08:32:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/56]])
08:32:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49902&oldid=49898 * Ais523 * (-23) tone down the IRC plug
08:32:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/57]])
08:33:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Strictly speaking, I'm just using it to define notation; ex. "The BHF declares that a(+)b shall henceforth be equivalent to 1/((1/a)+(1/b))")
08:34:23 <ais523> that is an operation that could do with a name
08:34:32 <ais523> perhaps you could confuse people by calling it harmonic sum
08:35:01 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and (+) is ASCII for plus-sign-in-circle, just to be clear
08:35:10 <ais523> summing two positive numbers normally produces something greater than both, rather than smaller than both…
08:35:58 <hppavilion[1]> I also declared that you can write x with an overline to indicate the 1/x, the same way -x represents 0-x
08:37:49 <hppavilion[1]> This was actually one of the only mathematical proofs I've done in a while; schools in the US no longer require that you can actually DEMONSTRATE that something is true, so this was just a fun game. Literally; I'm reading through Knuth's book on Surreal Numbers and proving along with it.
08:48:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Topical! | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
08:48:44 <shachaf> I'd also like a name for the operation exp . abs . log
08:49:47 <hppavilion[1]> And is this just e^abs(ln(x)), or can it be arbitrary k^abs(log_k(x))?
08:50:18 <shachaf> > map (exp . abs . log) [1,3,1/3]
08:50:21 <lambdabot> [1.0,3.0000000000000004,3.0000000000000004]
08:51:07 <shachaf> > map (exp . abs . log) [1::CReal,3,1/3]
08:51:27 <ais523> "1.0" looks very disappointing to me as a representation of a computable real
08:51:36 <lambdabot> 0.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333
08:51:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49903&oldid=45547 * Rdebath * (+1139) Hello, world!
08:51:45 <ais523> I guess lambdabot is just approximating decimals?
08:51:53 <shachaf> They're displayed to 40 digits.
08:51:58 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, really, I'm not sure what it's supposed to do...
08:52:00 <shachaf> What's more, even (==) compares them to 40 digits.
08:52:25 <ais523> yes but you can't necessarily determine what a given digit of a computable is, if it's exactly on the boundary
08:52:44 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, does it turn every integer into itself and every reciprocal into its reciprocal?
08:52:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it's equivalent to x for x≥1, 1/x for x ≤1
08:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> Never seen a use, but there's probably a million of them
08:53:16 <ais523> it's not immediately clear to me why shachaf cares about the function
08:53:22 <ais523> (also it isn't defined for x≤0)
08:53:52 <shachaf> I was thinking of it in the context of e.g. change in value.
08:54:12 <hppavilion[1]> I replaced hexchat's beep and flash with just displaying the message in the corner
08:54:21 <shachaf> If something lost 80% of its value or gained 400%, those are clearly related.
08:54:52 <hppavilion[1]> (I once made an experimental program that reads skype messages aloud)
08:55:12 <shachaf> These days, just anyone is aloud to make experimental programs.
08:55:26 <shachaf> Today I bought an apple that I had high hopes for.
08:55:32 <shachaf> But it didn't live up to them.
08:55:47 <shachaf> It's a mediocre Honeycrisp apple.
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08:56:26 <shachaf> It wasn't a pun. I wasn't even thinking about the multinational technology company.
08:56:59 <hppavilion[1]> Well. shachaf has transcended measurement in shagrumpies.
08:57:00 <ais523> I was thinking of the famos lament quote "even a box of rotten apples on a string is Turing-complete"
08:57:13 <HackEgo> 82) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor
08:57:23 <shachaf> Wait, is that what the monad thing is a reference to?
08:57:26 <lambdabot> dons says: Think of a monad as a spacesuit full of nuclear waste in the ocean next to a container of apples. Now, you can't put oranges in the space suite or the nuclear waste falls in the ocean, *
08:57:26 <lambdabot> but* the apples are carried around anyway, and you just take what you need.
08:58:01 <shachaf> Are the rules to your game written up yet?
08:58:11 <ais523> shachaf: no, I'm doing so many other things
08:58:26 <ais523> but there are some things I want to redo and some things I'm not sure about
08:58:37 <ais523> right now I'm working on CALESYTA stuff
08:58:55 <ais523> you know you're in a good place when you have to start looking up academic papers
08:59:02 <ais523> to get the algorithms you need to implement your esolang in a reasonable time
08:59:10 <shachaf> Well, there was a Magic: The Gathering-inspired programming language for the ICFP contest one year.
08:59:22 <shachaf> Actually only the name may have been inspired.
08:59:24 <ais523> even then I might have to write an optimizer along the lines of the PMMN optimizer I have lying around
08:59:30 <ais523> hmm, is that online anywhere?
08:59:37 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: http://calesyta.xyz/en
08:59:42 <ais523> let's put that in the topic, actually
08:59:56 <ais523> it's big enough esolang news to be there
09:00:07 -!- ais523 has set topic: Topical! | http://esolangs.org/ | there is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
09:00:10 <shachaf> It's bigger news than most things that have gone in the topic in a long time.
09:00:15 <shachaf> Right, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering
09:00:55 <ais523> I once won $25000 as a direct result of a link in the topic of #esoteric
09:00:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Topical! | http://esolangs.org/ | There is currently an esolang contest; Phase II complete: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
09:01:25 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Phase II of the #esoteric plan for world domination
09:01:28 <ais523> if that's a reference to Freenode's April 1 stuff, please take it back out
09:01:41 <ais523> that defeats the point of the topic announcement IMO
09:01:46 -!- ais523 has set topic: Topical! | http://esolangs.org/ | there is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
09:02:06 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: oh, Freenode have a competition every April 1
09:02:20 <ais523> which is basically a puzzle (often a cryptogram) that leads to another puzzle, etc.
09:02:24 <ais523> with a bunch of stages
09:02:53 <ais523> normally we put up a fake puzzle that isn't actually part of Freenode's in the topic
09:02:54 <ais523> worded to imply that it is
09:02:55 <shachaf> ais523: Was that the Wolfram thing?
09:03:10 <ais523> so that if people are searching the channel list looking to get a head start in the puzzle by stealing someone else's solutions, they get stuck
09:03:25 <hppavilion[1]> "NZT is a programming language mixing the powerful features of many modern languages with the useful and unconventional tools provided by esolangs. It is rich with powerful features, and has a defining property that all software written in it- and any and all computers running this software- comes under the Council's absolute control in 3 years."
09:04:16 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( C and C++ are the programming equivalent of natural languages, rather than things like Python and Haskell's Conlanging )
09:04:23 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I once considered a programming language where the spec says that any implementation requires sending me money
09:04:30 <ais523> otherwise it isn't conformant
09:04:32 <int-e> "The jury will be selected among the candidates according to an arbitrary criterion."
09:04:58 <ais523> int-e: I hope it's particularly arbitrary
09:05:20 <ais523> rather than just being random
09:05:24 <shachaf> It's the most arbitrary criterion.
09:05:26 <ais523> which is fairly non-arbitrary as it actually makes sense
09:05:42 <ais523> shachaf: what, picking an arbitrary arbitrary criterion?
09:05:58 * ais523 notices that there's a potential risk of infinite recursion here
09:06:05 <shachaf> arbitrary and criterion are the names of two unrelated Haskell libraries.
09:06:17 <ais523> wouldn't choosing according to multiple criteria be a criterion in its own right?
09:06:40 <shachaf> ais523: This reminds me of the game Mediocrity, where the goal is to be the most mediocre player.
09:06:47 <ais523> /any/ method you use to choose is a criterion, by definition
09:07:00 <hppavilion[1]> (You can technically make a fully-fledged system of logic with only one axiom, by taking an existing one and combining the axioms with ∧)
09:07:01 <ais523> shachaf: from Gödel, Escher, Bach? or did you see it elsewhere?
09:07:17 <shachaf> I think I read it in _Metamagical Themas_
09:07:27 <ais523> oh, it might be there instead
09:07:30 <ais523> those two books are easily confused
09:07:58 <shachaf> I haven't read all of either one.
09:08:03 <shachaf> But I think I read most of both.
09:08:55 <shachaf> Anyway, in a mediocrity match, you want to win the middle number of individual games to win the match. But you want to win the middle number of matches to win the tournament. And so on.
09:09:34 <ais523> I think players 1 and 3 have a huge advantage here
09:09:45 <ais523> as they have a move that's guaranteed to lose a game
09:09:48 <ais523> whereas player 2 doesn't
09:10:16 <shachaf> Hmm, I've forgotten the rules for an individual game.
09:10:20 <shachaf> I think I'm confusing it with Undercut.
09:10:31 <ais523> you pick a number, whoever picks the middle value wins
09:10:44 <ais523> and at all levels in Mediocrity, tiebreaks are by player numbers
09:11:06 <ais523> also there's a limit on what numbers you can pick, integers 1≤n≤5 was the original I think
09:11:30 <ais523> Undercut's easily solved by game theory, anyway
09:11:40 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: tiebreak by player number
09:11:53 <shachaf> Depends on what you're trying to solve for, I guess.
09:11:57 <ais523> e.g. player 1 chooses 1.1 to 5.1, player 2 chooses 1.2 to 5.2, player 3 chooses 1.3 to 5.3
09:12:25 <ais523> Mediocrity isn't solved by game theory as it's broken, the optimal move depends on alliances and the like
09:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> Theory: Billy Joel is actually a pyromaniac and responsible for for several arsons, but nobody considers that because it would just be absurd and hilarious and anybody who suggests it gets laughed at and called an idiot.
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09:37:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hi\n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49904&oldid=43376 * Rdebath * (+131) Example implementation is buggy.
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09:59:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49905&oldid=47313 * Rdebath * (+93) Tasty derivatives?
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10:16:23 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Delaware is a US state in which everybody speaks German.
10:16:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'delaware': Delaware is a US state in which everybody speaks German.
10:17:41 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Delaware is abbreviated as 'de'; 'de' is the language code for German (Deutsch)
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10:38:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Treehugger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49906&oldid=44798 * Rdebath * (-38) formatting
10:40:35 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Ever heard of geo-thermal energy>
10:45:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Foo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49907&oldid=35508 * Rdebath * (+10) reformat ugly wrapping
10:48:03 <gamemanj> Foo seems like a brainfuck derivative.
10:50:53 <gamemanj> + and - (BF) map to +1 and -1 (Foo)...
10:51:14 <gamemanj> [ and ] (BF) map to ( and ) (Foo)...
10:52:39 <gamemanj> IO's wonky, but the actual computation part's the same.
10:53:28 <ais523> ah, Foo, destroyer of "guess what language the Hello World is in" competitions
10:54:43 <gamemanj> Or "guess what language this sentence is written in" competitions.
10:55:28 <ais523> the thing about the hello worlds is that in simple cases, Foo has a tendency to just print all the string literals in your program
10:55:45 <gamemanj> ...Still, it might be a good language for lyric storage.
10:56:04 <ais523> and most hello world programs tend to have hello world in string literals, and thus also work in Foo
10:56:54 <gamemanj> it doesn't say unknown command behavior
11:00:43 <gamemanj> In theory, void main() { puts("Hello world!"); } should work.
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11:09:21 <ais523> unknown commands are skipped
11:09:43 <ais523> and this was on a golfing website, they're not going to include include files unless they absolutely have to
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11:33:57 <int-e> gamemanj: well, that has two instances of undefined behavior. a) void main and b) using a standard function without including the corresponding header.
11:35:52 <gamemanj> Now I just need to find more undefined behavior...
11:36:06 <gamemanj> ...so I can get three points on the U.D. Scoreboard!
11:37:18 <gamemanj> Hmm. Do I get more points for including the wrong header?
11:37:29 <gamemanj> Like, if I include stdlib instead of stdio, is that two undefined points or just one?
11:37:51 <gamemanj> Oh! Maybe I could undefine the GCC version indicator define!
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11:44:27 <int-e> including the stdlib.h header will not cause undefined behavior unless you do it inside of a declaration
11:45:44 <gamemanj> ...you know, you should probably be getting worried right about...
11:46:20 <int-e> why... are you programming an ICBM or nuclear plant?
11:48:04 <gamemanj> I'm just thinking about triggering as much undefined behavior as I can find...
11:49:17 <int-e> UD is both underrated (ask any software security expert) and overrated (usually you just get a crashing program)
11:50:19 <gamemanj> int-e: Aw. I was hoping by triggering enough undefined behavior, a genie would come out and grant me wishes. Or I'd get a device that grants wishes. Or everybody would be turned into walking animatronic pumpkins.
11:50:31 <int-e> And if you include a header in the middle of a declaration you're bound to just get a compile time error anyway.
11:50:31 <gamemanj> Any of those would be fine by different degrees of "fine".
11:51:16 <int-e> *but* an implementation is allowed to instead put the right identifiers in scope.
11:58:11 <gamemanj> I've heard that undefined behavior means the implementation can do anything.
11:59:03 <gamemanj> So all I have to do is create lots of undefined behavior, and feed the code to lots of C compilers until one of them successfully births a friendly AI, or turns everybody into anthropomorphic cats, or something equally fun!
12:00:17 <int-e> I think you may have better luck by implementing some nasty behavior.
12:00:49 <int-e> sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/mem
12:01:02 <gamemanj> Let me just open up a terminal...
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12:05:36 <ais523> int-e: not going to test that in case I'm wrong, but wouldn't that just lead to an almost instant bus error before anything's actually overwritten?
12:06:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Slnetaiga * New user account
12:12:17 <int-e> ais523: I don't think so, mem being a raw memory device; I expect a crash with hopefully no permanent side effects
12:13:05 <ais523> Since Linux 2.6.26, and depending on the architecture, the CON‐ FIG_STRICT_DEVMEM kernel configuration option limits the areas which can be accessed through this file. For example: on x86, RAM access is not allowed but accessing memory-mapped PCI regions is.
12:15:31 <int-e> but I don't want to try it out either :P
12:16:29 <int-e> reading seems to work in any case, dd if=/dev/mem of=mem bs=4096 count=1
12:17:37 <int-e> (and there's non-zero data in there)
12:19:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49908&oldid=49902 * Slnetaiga * (+159)
12:21:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49909 * Slnetaiga * (+14796) Created page with "'''F-PULSE''', F-Pulse is an esoteric programming language like brainfuck, buts operands separated by space. == Examples == === Hello world === PLS PLS PLS PLS PLS PLS PLS PL..."
12:22:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Slnetaiga]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49910 * Slnetaiga * (+8) Created page with "Hello!:D"
12:24:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49911&oldid=49909 * Slnetaiga * (+14)
12:24:58 <ais523> ugh, is that just a BF substitution?
12:25:15 <ais523> what happened to Phantom_Hoover?
12:25:22 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop.
12:25:49 <ais523> ah no, it has extra commands
12:30:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49912&oldid=49911 * Slnetaiga * (+84)
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12:38:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49913&oldid=49912 * Slnetaiga * (-8)
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14:21:41 <HackEgo> hackego//HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
14:54:54 <ybden> Oh yay, more brainfuck derivatives
15:04:16 <boily> there should be more aubergine derivatives imnsho.
15:08:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49914&oldid=49913 * Slnetaiga * (-18)
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15:25:09 <wob_jonas> The Szegedi Tudományegyetem (SZTE) Nagykönyvtára, which is one of the largest libraries in Hungary, got a political renaming to SZTE Klebersberg Könyvtár. That's happened in 2011 but I only just found out about it today.
15:25:44 <wob_jonas> If they need a stupid renaming to suck up to the government and get more funds, then the renaming is a fair price, sure, I'm just surprised I never noticed this till now.
15:26:58 <wob_jonas> I think the reason why I hadn't noticed is that I didn't look at their homepage, only the catalog http://opac2.bibl.u-szeged.hu/szteek/opac directly, and the catalog doesn't advertize the new name.
15:28:02 <wob_jonas> I mean, I usually don't much like renamings because it confuses everyone, but in this case, it's a freaking huge library in Szeged, there can't be more than one of those, so it's obviously the same entity.
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15:45:31 <boily> quinthellopia, eh!
15:46:32 <quintopia> how about a aubergine/BF crossover?
15:47:16 <quintopia> would that please you as much as it pissed everyone else off?
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15:51:19 <oerjan> @ask ais523 Trying to rework the filter again so it doesn't need disabling for ordinary edits. What was the !(user_age > 0) for, again?
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15:57:08 <oerjan> gah this is hard to do without adding redundancy...
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16:05:46 <boily> quintopia: a most pleasing abomination :D
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16:10:30 * oerjan makes karnaugh diagram
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16:34:53 <boily> oerjan: by hand, on cheap lined paper?
16:35:50 <oerjan> although it only served to convince me i need to define variables for the filter conditions.
16:36:14 <fungot> wob_jonas: find me a girl had to stay with me!
16:36:55 * izalove is starting to believe that fungot is a human and wob_jonas is a bot
16:36:55 <fungot> izalove: variables in different lexical scopes are merely ways to organize modules systems are either to do what? perhaps maxima... it's written by calamari
16:38:28 <boily> fungot: stop being sentient, but I agree with the calamaring.
16:38:28 <fungot> boily: take a wild guess here. the long-distance relationship is really hard to do if you are
16:38:44 <boily> hellob_jellonas, izellove.
16:39:02 <wob_jonas> izalove: fungot usually replies too fast for a human
16:39:02 <fungot> wob_jonas: so yea, it is
16:39:24 * boily lightly mapoles wob_jonas to make sure it's a bot
16:39:36 <izalove> wob_jonas: maybe you're just racing and *you* are the bot that's too fast for a human
16:40:04 <boily> . o O ( hmm... tasty squid... )
16:48:34 <oerjan> fff the mediawiki filter syntax doesn't seem to allow defining condition variables
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17:18:17 <oerjan> @tell fizzie wiki bridge is down again
17:20:19 <oerjan> or wait my edit didn't work
17:20:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/58]])
17:21:09 <oerjan> @tell fizzie Sorry, false alarm
17:23:07 <oerjan> boily: see Notes in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/9 hth
17:28:40 <oerjan> the diagram turned out to be helpful, even if i didn't _quite_ manage avoid repeating conditions.
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17:30:50 <boily> optimizing karnaugh maps is a nightmare. probably NP complete too.
17:32:35 <oerjan> boily: it's better than optimizing boolean expressions _without_ having a diagram hth
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17:51:15 <ybden> `? book of infinity
17:51:15 <HackEgo> book of infinity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:51:18 <ybden> `? the book of infinity
17:51:19 <HackEgo> the book of infinity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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17:56:21 * boily has this nagging feeling evlipse is someone else...
17:56:55 <oerjan> well it was on that day when "everyone" changed their nicks to evil*
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17:58:02 <oerjan> i think someone (moonythedwarf_?) had invited friends from other channels.
17:58:25 <oerjan> jeffl35 came that day too, i think, and is still here.
17:59:16 <oerjan> and of course, everyone tried (and eventually succeeded at) crashing HackEgo.
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18:04:25 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> one theory we have is that the human captcha solvers can't see the old content of the page when editing through the spambot interface <-- well _my_ theory is that account creating captcha solvers and spamming bots are entirely separate from each other, and don't communicate.
18:05:40 <oerjan> @tell ais523 so by the time actual editing is tried, the system is no longer intelligence-based.
18:19:28 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> And is this just e^abs(ln(x)), or can it be arbitrary k^abs(log_k(x))? <-- it doesn't matter as long as k is positive.
18:24:36 <HackEgo> 82) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor
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18:25:26 <oerjan> `sled quotes//82s/ \.\.\. /[...]/
18:25:29 <HackEgo> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he shou
18:25:34 <HackEgo> 82) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries.[...] <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor
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18:26:08 <oerjan> `sled quotes//82s/[[]/ [/
18:26:10 <HackEgo> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he shou
18:26:13 <HackEgo> 82) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. [...] <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor
18:27:09 <oerjan> `` quote 82 | sed 's/.............//'
18:27:11 <HackEgo> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. [...] <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws.
18:27:53 <oerjan> `` allquotes | grep '[^[]\.\.\.'
18:27:54 <HackEgo> 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \
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18:34:01 -!- oerjan has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
18:34:35 <oerjan> having it after the wiki page is just asking for people to miss it i think
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18:40:23 <myname> i have to look at what an esolang contest actually is
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20:54:23 <otherbot> jeffl35: pyc pad pyr giac befr padclr lolr ><>r js rsc ul
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21:27:31 <otherbot> I am currently tracking 3336 hosts, representing an aproximate of %4 of freenode record users. I saw 3336 nicks. From that users, 2590 of them was ever logged in into services.
21:31:39 <quintopia> @tell boily happy thanksgiving tho
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22:09:04 <Taneb> `learn Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature
22:09:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'eyebrow': Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature
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22:10:21 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], yes
22:10:32 <Taneb> Seriously, it happens a lot
22:10:53 * alercah needs to get her eyebrows done again
22:13:41 <FireFly> Taneb: I require evidence of notable eyebrows
22:14:17 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Page "Taneb's Eyebrows" deleted for reason: Not Notable )
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22:14:51 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
22:15:09 <Taneb> FireFly, they are notable enough to be mentioned in my wisdom
22:15:36 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe `learn should be edited to not work if a file is already defined, with a separate command `learn-strict that will overwrite
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22:23:57 <int-e> "eyebrows" remind me of http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/438558-zak-mckracken-and-the-alien-mindbenders-atari-st-screenshot.png
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23:12:47 <imode> what would one consider to be the most fundamental stack operations? stack shifting, rather.
23:12:54 <imode> swap, dup, rot, drop, etc.
23:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> imode: I assume you accept some variables to be used
23:13:16 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4h 53m 46s ago: <hppavilion[1]> And is this just e^abs(ln(x)), or can it be arbitrary k^abs(log_k(x))? <-- it doesn't matter as long as k is positive.
23:13:40 <imode> not entirely. stack shifting operations are mainly what I was asking about.
23:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> imode: You mean like rotation where the top goes to the bottom?
23:13:56 <imode> swapping two stack items, rotating... really everything could be done in terms of pick and roll..
23:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> imode: If you want to put values at the bottom you want a deque, not a stack
23:14:32 <imode> that's.. not what I was asking. :|
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23:14:51 <myname> is there a data structure that operates like pancake stacks? i.e. additionally to push and pop you have a flip on an index
23:15:24 <imode> hppavilion[1]: stack operators. dup, swap, drop rot, etc.
23:15:59 <myname> well, it's a DS if you want to make it efficient
23:16:00 <hppavilion[1]> imode: You can do that with push, pop, and a few registers; not sure of any way without it
23:16:03 <imode> hppavilion[1]: if you don't know what I'm talking about... well, here's a nice documentation http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Forth_stack_operators
23:16:05 <myname> not sure if you can, though
23:16:16 <imode> hppavilion[1]: I'm asking what the most "fundamental" of these would be.
23:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> imode: Not sure then. What do you want to be able to define in terms of them?
23:16:40 <imode> "pick" and "roll" would be the first candidates, as you could implement the other operators in terms of them.
23:16:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I thought 'efficient' is relative to what CAN be done
23:16:51 <imode> apart from drop, which is just pop.
23:17:14 <imode> but pick and roll require an extra operand.
23:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> So the mathematically optimal implementation is considered 'efficient', even if it's O(n!^k)
23:18:12 <imode> guess in the interest of complexity, pick and roll will be the goto.
23:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure roll is only allowed for queues and deques...
23:18:57 <imode> roll is effectively an array shift to the right.
23:19:12 <imode> again, that link explains a lot.
23:19:50 <imode> sorry, a shift to the left. those darn directions. ;)
23:20:18 <hppavilion[1]> imode: I think you should use up/down for stacks; right and left aren't really meaningful
23:20:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:20:45 <imode> left and right are meaningful in forth's notation.
23:21:47 <imode> actually I think it's more complex than just a shift...
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23:25:36 <imode> actually no! it is just a shift to the left. so "1 2 3 4" roll 3 turns into "2 3 4 1".
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23:26:07 <imode> both operators treat the stack as an array, yes.
23:26:31 <imode> but you can implement other operators in terms of those, so I got to wondering if you even need pick and roll.
23:33:18 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> shachaf: what, picking an arbitrary arbitrary criterion? <-- hey that's what i did for my Malbolge Unshackled implementation
23:34:08 <shachaf> Why aren't you on dontaskdonttelllist?
23:35:25 <oerjan> its for people who idle in the channel even when away, of which i am not.
23:37:12 <shachaf> I guess sometimes the bots aren't present.
23:37:29 <oerjan> the dontaskdonttellist was never meant for that.
23:37:52 <oerjan> it's for people who don't like getting lambdabot @tells when they could be sent a private message instead.
23:38:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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23:38:16 <oerjan> but you cannot send a private message to someone who doesn't idle.
23:38:31 <shachaf> I thought it was about public messages.
23:39:05 <oerjan> besides, i've long since forgotten to check it anyway >:)
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23:39:31 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
23:39:37 <shachaf> Wait, is it rude to do that in public?
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23:40:22 <alercah> is that ZWSPs in the names or something?
23:40:33 <oerjan> alercah: that or ^O's, i don't remember.
23:40:49 <oerjan> probably ^O's since shachaf didn't complain >:)
23:41:08 <shachaf> I think you overstate how much shachaf complains.
23:41:12 <shachaf> I'm not even using that computer right now.
23:43:05 <alercah> Does anyone want to help me come up with a ruleset for duplicate Mornington Crescent?
23:43:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mornington: not found
23:43:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?mornington: not found
23:43:17 <HackEgo> mornington crescent? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:43:47 <shachaf> That sounded like a Magic: The Gathering card.
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23:44:32 <oerjan> `le/rn mornington crescent/Sorry, you cannot read this wisdom until you've legally played Westminster.
23:44:36 <HackEgo> Learned «mornington crescent»
23:44:43 <alercah> that's better than what I was going to come up with
23:44:51 <alercah> incidentally, I am going to visit both of those stations tomorrow!
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23:45:15 <alercah> Westminster to visit the palace, and Mornington Crescent for the photo op
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23:46:17 <HackEgo> pikhq: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:48:51 <Taneb> alercah, sounds fun! Holiday?
23:48:58 <oerjan> @tell ais523 (admittedly the outer level is random)
23:49:40 <oerjan> by general channel synchronicity, he'll be applying for a job at google.
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23:49:51 <oerjan> and end up in the office across fizzie.
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23:51:29 <shachaf> Read error: Connection reset by beer
23:51:53 * oerjan hits shachaf with a pear
23:53:39 <alercah> is fizzie at google london?
23:53:44 <oerjan> i had a hunch i should be gender neutral but did not follow it.
23:54:06 <alercah> I'm normally not in the UK, so seems unlikely ;)
23:54:25 <\oren\> I wonder if Kanye West will run as a democrat or republican in 2020
23:55:31 <oerjan> hm i should have remembered the realname, although admittedly it _is_ male in some cultures.
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23:58:50 <shachaf> «In the 2008 book 5-Star Baby Name Advisor, author Bruce Lansky writes that the girls name has the image of a "sexy and seductive knockout."[1]»
23:58:59 <shachaf> That is a bizarre thing to write in a baby name book.
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00:00:57 <oerjan> <alercah> I'm normally not in the UK, so seems unlikely ;) <-- neither was fizzie before he got the job
00:01:18 -!- ais523 has joined.
00:01:30 <alercah> oerjan: I would probably end up at an office closer to north america
00:02:06 <oerjan> alercah: reykjavik hth
00:02:18 <shachaf> alercah is going to work at Google?
00:02:38 <oerjan> shachaf: channel synchronicity demands it
00:02:46 <ais523> oerjan: the !(user_age > 0) is to avoid banning account creation
00:03:10 <shachaf> alercah: have you considered moving to california hth
00:04:07 <shachaf> california is among the best of the californias
00:04:59 <oerjan> ais523: but there's already an exception for account creation in there...
00:05:57 <oerjan> maybe it wasn't like that before i started rearranging.
00:06:17 <ais523> oerjan: there wasn't an exception for anon users (who don't have an edit count)
00:07:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:08:27 <oerjan> testing seems to show no ill effect of removing it.
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00:11:01 <oerjan> although i'm also a bit confused about what happens with some of the tests if a variable is undefined.
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00:12:04 <oerjan> maybe it _does_ catch anonymous users.
00:12:31 <oerjan> it's just that those have been disabled by fizzie, so no recent actions will trigger it
00:12:34 <ais523> oerjan: undefined seems to work like NaN
00:12:45 <ais523> all comparisons with it return false, AFAICT
00:13:23 <oerjan> but is != equivalent to !( ... == ... ) even then?
00:13:49 <ais523> not sure, but my guess is no
00:14:03 <ais523> I guess we could make a test filter to find out
00:14:15 <ais523> although finding an undefined value without anon editing legal could be hard
00:14:37 <oerjan> well i was thinking about article_articleid
00:14:59 <oerjan> it's the reason i didn't change != to == when making the Karnaugh diagram
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00:15:47 <oerjan> wait, does this mean the filter really _should_ use !(article_articleid == 10933) instead
00:16:09 <hppavilion[1]> What WOULD an esolang designed for actual, productive use be like?
00:16:25 <hppavilion[1]> Designed to be different, as if it developed from different core principles
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00:16:29 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: either something along the lines of Befunge-98, or else something that's esoteric because it does a heavy amount of source code checking
00:16:37 <ais523> Prolog is a good example of something that would have been an esolang at the time
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00:18:27 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Or something ultra-minimal like Brainfuck (but not a derivative at all), but more readable
00:22:12 <ais523> I wouldn't describe Thue as designed for practical use
00:22:25 <ais523> that said, I once did consider a wimpmode of Thutu the easiest language to write a particular program in
00:22:47 <ais523> (I realised Thutu would be useful for the purpose, so I created a wimpmode to make the program easier to write)
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00:26:55 <oerjan> @tell fizzie why are the "<code>" tags visible in the captcha question?
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00:28:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OerjanTest * New user account
00:30:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Out of curiosity, would is Thue's name *properly* be pronounced?
00:30:30 <hppavilion[1]> (The person, not the language- the language is Too-ay)
00:31:19 <hppavilion[1]> I originally read it as "þoo", and now it's stuck like that inside my head, but I later learned it's /approximately/ "TOO-eh"
00:31:34 <oerjan> the name is the same as the language, more or less.
00:31:45 <oerjan> yes, norwegian t is like english
00:32:16 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
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00:33:05 <FireFly> I was thinking I'd host a j-bot replacement. Should I go with [ or ] as bot prefix?
00:33:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: /²tʉːə/
00:33:50 <hppavilion[1]> (As long as I'm at it, I'll find how to PROPERLY pronounce my last name...)
00:34:22 <FireFly> tangentstorm. I don't think he frequents the channel
00:34:22 <ais523> arguably ] would make sense because jconn is using ) and j-bot is using [
00:34:25 <ais523> so it would be somewhere in between
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00:34:42 <ffj-bot> FireFly: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
00:35:31 <ais523> btw, is J commercial? I vaguely remember that it is but I might be wrong
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00:35:46 <ais523> by which I mean, can you legally obtain a J interpreter without paying money? and if you can, is it open source?
00:36:14 -!- ffj-bot has joined.
00:36:55 <FireFly> It was commercial, but they provided a binary for free since forever ago, and then some time ago (2011? or thereabout) they released the source under GPL
00:38:29 <FireFly> Well, at some point far in the past it was fully commercial
00:38:48 <FireFly> well, 'far' is relative I guess
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00:39:57 <hppavilion[1]> (Last name 'Tronnes' stylized 'Trønnes' based on classical spelling; we pronounce it ['tɻʌn ɪs] or ['tɻʌn nɪs], but people constantly pronounce it incorrectly in various ways- most commonly [tɻoʊnz] or [tɻo:nz], though one person once did [tɻoʊ 'nis]. During an awards assembly. I didn't have the nerve to correct them. Any of the 5 times.)
00:40:22 <FireFly> http://www.jsoftware.com/source.htm
00:40:51 <oerjan> i thought j-bot had been here recently... it may have been b_jonas who summoned it
00:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> (When you do correct people- "no, ['tɻʌn nɪs]"- they tend to not understand that you're saying it as they should instead of exaggerating in the opposite direction, and kind of blend the correct one together with their incorrect version rather than just discarding theirs entirely)
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00:43:06 <hppavilion[1]> (This has led to a joke where you repeatedly correct them even when they get it right- "[tɻoʊnz]" "no, ['tɻʌn nɪs]" "['tɻoʊn nɪs]" "no, ['tɻʌn nɪs]" "['tɻʌn nɪs]" "NO, ['tɻʌn nɪs]" "['tɻʌn nɪs]" "no, ['tɻʌn nɪs]" etc.)
00:43:09 <ais523> is ʌ a schwa or is it a bit different?
00:43:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: /²tɾœnːeːs/ hth
00:43:45 <ais523> that's like… schwa-like but not identical in all accents?
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00:44:02 <ais523> it's more clearly a u than a schwa is
00:44:04 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Not really; 'uh' is different from schwa afair
00:44:08 <ais523> but people also default to hearing schwa as u
00:44:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:44:16 <ais523> and it's not the same phoneme as /u/
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00:44:37 <hppavilion[1]> Schwa is what happens when there should be (or used to be) a vowel there, but there barely is
00:45:59 <hppavilion[1]> Most people say it like ~'bʌtn', but since you don't smoothly go /t/ -> /n/ (like with /t/ -> /s/), a schwa goes there to indicate that it is a separate syllable
00:46:34 <ais523> I agree that the o in button is pronounced /ə/
00:47:24 <oerjan> /ʌ/ is the closest english to norwegian /œ/, anyway, and it's often converted that way in borrowings the other way. e.g. no:tøff = en:tough
00:48:51 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like the Latin alphabet should have extra letters that aren't used except in math
00:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> (The letter 'ø' is sometimes referred to by us as the letter 'no', because it looks like the 'NO X' symbol)
00:52:29 <ais523> oerjan: so perhaps your name would be translated as "urjan"?
00:54:13 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Though, 'j' would be translated 'y', wouldn't it?
00:54:39 <ais523> oh, I assumed it was pronounced as English j
00:55:01 <ais523> the pronunciation of "j" in languages tends to be quite random as to whether it corresponds to a j or a y in English
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00:56:32 <oerjan> ais523: ok, neither page moves nor uploads avoid the filter, so i guess there isn't any problem with article_articleid undefined
00:56:58 <ais523> interestingly, "o'er" is actually an English word, although one that's rarely used nowadays (it's typically only used in poetry to make things scan)
00:57:09 <ais523> and it's arguably pronounced like Norwegian ør
00:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I always do too; I read 'oerjan' as [oəɻdʒæn] internally
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00:58:11 <hppavilion[1]> (and ais523 is [æs] five-two-three, tswett is 't. s. wett', etc. I know most are incorrect, but they're stuck)
00:58:32 -!- boily has joined.
00:58:37 <ais523> ais523 is six syllables, one for each character
00:59:04 <ais523> and I tend to get confused/disturbed when people use it in a way that implies they abbreviate it mentall
00:59:35 <boily> bonsois cinq deux trois.
00:59:42 <lambdabot> quintopia said 3h 28m 3s ago: happy thanksgiving tho
00:59:43 <hppavilion[1]> (Sgeo_ is usually either ['sdʒi oʊ] or [ɛs + 'dʒi oʊ])
01:00:00 <boily> @tell quintopia bonne action de grâce à toi aussi!
01:00:13 <oerjan> oh it's 0 for uploads, not undefined
01:00:25 <Sgeo_> hppavilion[1], I usually pronounce it the first way [assuming I have any idea what those symbols mean]
01:00:46 <ais523> I typically only say it out loud when telling someone my email address in person
01:01:08 <ais523> that said, I've introduced myself to people as callforjudgement before now
01:01:10 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo_: like 'sjee-oh', so the 'sj' go directly together (which is against English phonotactics I'm pretty sure)
01:01:23 <ais523> and I think I called myself ais523 on the roguelike radio program
01:01:26 <Sgeo_> A very light and fast 'uh' sound between sj usually
01:01:42 <boily> hppavellon[1]. Sgeo is /ɛs.ʒe.ə.o/ hth.
01:03:04 <ais523> I use S as a semivowel when pronouncing Sgeo
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01:03:29 <ais523> it's two syllables for me, sgee and long o
01:03:33 <oerjan> just in case the variable becomes an alias for moves, i also tried moving the introduction page :P
01:04:11 <boily> Sgeo_ is definitely four syllables long.
01:04:34 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm [ætʃ + pi + pʌ 'vɪ (l|ɫ)i (ə|ʌ)n + wʌn], but I've had people say [hæp pʌ 'vɪ (l|ɫ)i (ə|ʌ)n + wʌn] before.)
01:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> (I had to invent new symbols because I'm not sure if IPA has that; it probably does though)
01:05:38 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: huh, I just realised I don't mentally pronounce the [1] at all
01:05:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: That's the original name; I was hppavilion the first time around
01:06:10 <boily> /aʃ.pe.pa.vi.ljɔn/
01:06:14 <ais523> but I mean, I genuinely didn't notice there's currently a [1] in your nigk until I saw the pronounciation
01:06:16 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion1 is standard, hppavilion_ on steam, hppavilion[1] in the geekier environments that support it
01:06:20 <ais523> and tried to work out what the bit at the end was
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01:06:55 <oerjan> (i suppose it _might_ theoretically be an alias for the target page, but that seems harmless as ordinary users wouldn't be allowed to move over the introduction page anyway)
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01:08:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I have decided that Cthuvian has a sound called the "labioglottal fricative"
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01:08:49 <boily> hppavilion[1]: labioglottal??? sounds painful.
01:11:18 <HackEgo> 1091) <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
01:11:41 <oerjan> Koen_ was a very cunning linguist
01:12:42 -!- sirnaysayer has changed nick to joozygooch.
01:13:06 <boily> haven't seen him in a while...
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01:13:17 <oerjan> ais523: btw the reason i picked an arbitrary arbitrary criterion for Malbolge Unshackled was that i didn't want programmers to be able to rely on it being either deterministic or truly random
01:13:37 <ais523> oerjan: normally I just use UB for that
01:13:46 <oerjan> ais523: i mean in the implementation
01:14:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: How does it choose whether to be deterministic or random?
01:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> Is it implementation-defined, chosen at launch, or decided each time?
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01:15:47 <oerjan> it chose randomly once per program run between either growing cell size deterministically (with several possible step sizes) or randomly (with several average steps or what it was)
01:16:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: for my implementation, chosen at launch
01:17:46 <boily> if something is either deterministic or random, isn't it equivalent to be wholly random?
01:18:14 <oerjan> boily: not for this purpose. and certainly not with a uniform distribution.
01:18:18 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Not if it's consistent throughout the program
01:19:08 <oerjan> boily: the thing is, although it is randomly chosen, the programmer cannot in a single run rely on it e.g. for RNG
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01:19:57 * boily is stochastically confused by the whole shebang...
01:20:05 <ais523> oerjan: I guess an example of something that's random but not reliably random is
01:20:07 <oerjan> boily: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
01:20:13 <ais523> when the program starts, choose a random number p
01:20:25 <ais523> then output 1 bits with probability p for the rest of the program
01:20:46 <ais523> maybe the possibilities for p are 0.0, 0.1, …, 1.0
01:21:12 <oerjan> yeah as long as you include either 0.0 or 1.0
01:21:58 <oerjan> although in this case, 0.0 isn't allowed - the program has to actually grow the cell size at the specific points. although i guess you could interpret it as the minimal amount.
01:23:24 <\oren\> debate is in 37 minutes
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01:23:31 * oerjan is vaguely wondering if the brainfuck interpreter is resistant to all legal growth patterns, including ones my implementation doesn't use
01:23:50 <ais523> oerjan: wait, you wrote a BF interp in Malbolge Unshackled?
01:24:17 <boily> he\\oren\. following the Elections to the South?
01:24:35 <oerjan> ais523: no, not me, someone else. just last month or so.
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01:25:15 <ais523> does it work in original Malbolge too (obviously with a fixed-length tape)?
01:25:38 <ais523> admittedly it's probably using shifts to index the tape, so the tape length would be 10 minus a constant, not very useful
01:25:52 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Malbranche
01:26:09 <oerjan> i have been too lazy to test it.
01:28:24 <boily> Ah! I now know why I thought you were Johansen, not Sorensen.
01:28:46 <boily> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%C3%98rjan_Johansen
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01:30:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Unfortunately, my mother's job kind of depends on being in the US- she's a law clerk for the feds- so that'd be a problem)
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01:34:28 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you should travel here first, to have a feel of the lay. have you ever devoured a poutine?
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01:36:14 * boily straps pikhq to the chännel in hope that it'll stabilize his connection...
01:38:59 <oerjan> <boily> Ah! I now know why I thought you were Johansen, not Sorensen. <-- wat
01:40:12 <oerjan> (it would have been Sørensen btw)
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01:57:51 <HackEgo> Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature
01:58:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/eyebrow//Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature.
01:59:05 <boily> hellochaf. sadly my name's is undiacritical.
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02:08:20 <quintopia> i wonder if the number of americans watching the debate is roughly on par percentagewise with the number of ontarians watching the bluejays game
02:19:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MatheusAvellar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49915 * MatheusAvellar * (+272) Add User:MatheusAvellar
02:20:24 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 20m 24s ago: bonne action de grâce à toi aussi!
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02:22:33 <boily> lamdie doesn't UTF?
02:23:20 <boily> quintopia: that was «action de grâce» hth
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02:26:11 <quintopia> i guess its french for thanksgiving
02:26:36 <quintopia> theres fireworks over the falls soon
02:26:49 <quintopia> we have a room directly above them
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02:29:21 <quintopia> boily: what is the universal symbol for italian food?
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02:32:46 <boily> quintopia: uuuuuh... pizza?
02:33:14 <boily> (yes, I know pizza isn't really Italian even though it is now because of backretroappropriation.)
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02:40:24 <oerjan> @tell HackEgo It's øvful!
02:40:50 <oerjan> `echo lambdabot: @messages-
02:41:02 <oerjan> boily: looks fine to me...
02:41:23 <oerjan> boily: did you put something weirder in it, perhaps?
02:41:43 <boily> for once I didn't put anything strange or unusual in it...
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02:42:08 <boily> @tell oerjan tést tèst têst tëst çççççààààà è ô œ
02:43:01 <oerjan> @tell HackEgo bonne action de grâce à toi aussi!
02:43:06 <oerjan> `echo lambdabot: @messages-
02:43:07 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5s ago: bonne action de grâce à toi aussi!
02:43:16 <lambdabot> boily said 1m 7s ago: tést tèst têst tëst çççççà à à à à è ô Å
02:43:56 <oerjan> `echo lambdabot: @messages-
02:44:12 <HackEgo> [U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+00E2 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX] [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00E0 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE]
02:44:35 <boily> @tell HackEgo ça se pourrais-tu que tu chokes sur des affaires que t'es pas supposé?
02:44:47 <boily> `echo lambdabot: @messages-loud
02:44:48 <lambdabot> boily said 12s ago: ça se pourrais-tu que tu chokes sur des affaires que t'es pas supposé?
02:45:18 <fungot> 103 114 195 162 99 101 32 195 160
02:46:24 <oerjan> `echo lambdabot: @messages-
02:46:42 <HackEgo> [U+00E0 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE]
02:47:18 <oerjan> the 160 is stripped somehow.
02:48:54 <boily> @tell int-e your bot is a stripper. please reencode.
02:49:37 <HackEgo> [U+00C3 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH TILDE] [U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+00C3 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH TILDE]
02:50:48 <oerjan> curiouser and curiouser
02:51:26 <oerjan> > var "bonne action de grâce à toi aussi!"
02:51:28 <lambdabot> bonne action de grâce à toi aussi!
02:56:33 <oerjan> `echo lambdabot: @messages-
02:57:01 <HackEgo> [U+00C3 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH TILDE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00C3 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH TILDE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T]
02:57:24 <oerjan> 160 gets turned into ordinary space...
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02:58:43 <boily> @tell int-e your bot defies space. please reintegrate into the standard dimensions, preferably without involving relativity.
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03:02:28 <fungot> 196 160 196 160 116 101 115 116
03:03:11 <oerjan> `echo lambdabot: @messages-
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03:04:12 <oerjan> @tell int-e What esteemed boily means is that lambdabot does not seem to output byte 160 properly, especially in @told messages but sometimes in > as well.
03:04:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49916&oldid=23403 * Qwertyu63 * (-25) Removing redirect
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03:08:00 <lambdabot> "\195\160\195\160\195\160\195\160"
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03:09:21 <oerjan> @tell int-e also applies to @where
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03:16:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49917&oldid=49894 * Qwertyu63 * (+54)
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03:40:34 <Cale> hey shachaf http://cale.yi.org/reflex/PrismataUnits/PrismataUnits.jsexe/ :)
03:40:54 <Cale> (source code is in the parent directory)
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03:41:13 <Cale> Might be useful if you're introducing someone to mata
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07:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> @ask boily Question: Is there a rule for how Canadian laws are written? As in, do they have to be written in French or English? And is there an official translation? And which is binding? What if there's a discrepancy? etc. etc. etc.
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08:02:56 <zzo38> I think the law is that it has to be both French and English and people who write laws will have to know how to do both. I don't know what will happen in case of discrepancy.
08:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently it's a crime to feed change into someone else's parking meter in some places in the US
08:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> (is it parking metre in international english? Or just meter? Not sure if they're different...)
08:04:18 <zzo38> "Metre" is a unit of measurement.
08:04:30 <zzo38> In other uses it should be "meter".
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08:39:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: abyss: not found
08:39:47 <HackEgo> In Soviet Russia, the abyss gazes into you first. Other than that, it's pretty much the same.
08:40:06 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to make `? abyss react with '`? <name_of_user>' if possible
08:40:26 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan Taneb oerjan oerjan hppavilion[1] oerjan shachaf boily oerjan oerjan oerjan boily oerjan oerjan hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] oerjan oerjan hppavilion[1] jeffl42 jeffl42 jeffl42 jeffl42 jeffl42 jeffl42 tswett oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan hppavilion[1] int-e moonythedwarf moonythedw
08:40:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/culprits
08:42:29 <HackEgo> <oerjan> slwd eyebrow//s/$/./ \ <oerjan> le/rn mornington crescent/Sorry, you cannot read this wisdom until you\'ve legally played Westminster. \ <Taneb> learn Eyebrows are Taneb\'s most notable feature \ <oerjan> sled quotes//82s/[[]/ [/ \ <oerjan> sled quotes//82s/ \\.\\.\\. /[...]/ \ <hppavilion[1]> learn Delaware is a US state in which every
08:59:10 <hppavilion[1]> Hmm, looks like jeffl35 was trying to break HackEgo earlier today
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09:36:33 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, it'd take 4.5 years to cross the diameter of the oort cloud
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09:45:48 <hppavilion[1]> Then... that means they're both 2.25 ly across... but we're only 4 ly apart... so there's 0.5 ly of overlap...
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10:35:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'm reading tvtropes's ~1 per whole SFW page on BDSM (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/BDSM)
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10:54:21 <myname> how is sfw bdsm any fun?
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11:51:48 <ais523> that page can't possibly be SFW, it's on TV Tropes
11:51:56 <ais523> which is not a site you want to be visiting at work
11:55:06 <int-e> the trick is to read only a single page and then stop.
11:55:51 <int-e> (and yes, I remember https://xkcd.com/609/ )
11:56:06 <myname> actually, that is what i do most of the time i visit that site
11:57:41 <myname> the only ever article i really enjoyed was about dwarf fortress
12:15:03 <int-e> > words "ab\xA0cd"
12:16:33 <int-e> > words "ab\xA0huh"
12:17:29 <int-e> > words "ab\xA0\&cd"
12:17:45 <int-e> it's amazing how rarely this trick (\&) comes up...
12:18:28 <int-e> \& is just an empty string
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12:18:58 <int-e> but it can be used to terminate other escaped character sequences.
12:22:42 <int-e> @tell boily FWIW, 160 is stripped because it is a space. This might not be optimal.
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13:17:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49918&oldid=49896 * Slnetaiga * (+13)
13:19:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49919 * Slnetaiga * (+14868) Created page with "'''F-PULSE''', is an esoteric programming language like brainfuck writed on php, buts operands separated by space. == Examples == === Hello world === PLS PLS PLS PLS PLS PLS..."
13:20:12 <myname> that's exactly what i thought
13:20:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49920&oldid=49919 * Slnetaiga * (+43)
13:20:20 <int-e> everybody loves brainfuck
13:20:31 <ybden> No, this page was made yesterday
13:20:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49921&oldid=49920 * Slnetaiga * (+26)
13:21:12 <HackEgo> Interpretatere? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:21:42 <int-e> yesterday it was Fpulse/
13:22:07 <int-e> so yeah this seems a bit redundant.
13:23:05 <ybden> I wonder if they went to the page, then wondered why it was missing
13:23:42 <int-e> doubtful; the first edit copied the whole page contents, judging by the number of bytes
13:24:54 <int-e> contents checks out, too.
13:26:08 <FireFly> Perhaps they wrote the page in an external editor and copied it from there in both cases
13:26:23 <FireFly> anyway, the with-slash page should probably be deleted I suppose
13:26:36 <int-e> anyway apparently a normal user can't delete pages...
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13:27:15 <int-e> ...only move them, which is a bit pointless now
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15:01:47 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] asked 7h 11m 29s ago: Question: Is there a rule for how Canadian laws are written? As in, do they have to be written in French or English? And is there an official translation? And
15:01:47 <lambdabot> which is binding? What if there's a discrepancy? etc. etc. etc.
15:01:48 <lambdabot> int-e said 2h 39m 5s ago: FWIW, 160 is stripped because it is a space. This might not be optimal.
15:02:50 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] hppavellon[1]! an excellent question, to which I have no answer. I wonder how it works...
15:03:17 <boily> int-e: int-ello. I concur about the suboptimality of the thing.
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15:26:38 <HackEgo> footnote 8//Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
15:26:51 <boily> were there ever a whole series of footnotes?
15:26:56 <HackEgo> superexponential growth//Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
15:30:05 <HackEgo> swatter//The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles.
15:30:20 <HackEgo> wat//ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው።
15:31:49 <boily> there are ASCII/Latin-1 emojis, the disapproving Kannada look, Shift-JIS ones, but have people started to exploit the full Unicodemotional range?
15:34:14 <FireFly> there's the canadian syllabical running man
15:35:11 <boily> FirelloFly. right.
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15:59:58 <HackEgo> Moon is a murderous lunatic, not an unretroreflectorey object. He sometimes causes overmoonification.
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16:08:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49922&oldid=49900 * Malbranche * (-3848) /* Malbolge */ Simplified
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16:09:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49923&oldid=49922 * Malbranche * (-50214) /* Malbolge Unshackled */ Simplified
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16:17:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Malbranche]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49924&oldid=49701 * Malbranche * (+600) You're welcome
16:24:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49925&oldid=49865 * Function call without parameters * (+10)
16:24:55 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> It has a dord of 2502i kg/m^3 <-- ooh i did not know about dord
16:25:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bug Computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49926&oldid=49868 * Function call without parameters * (+14) not really a RISC
16:27:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49927&oldid=49918 * Function call without parameters * (+19)
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16:48:17 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> Is there a way to see who the user `ing is? <-- none that we've found.
16:50:24 <int-e> oerjan: are you in the right move to delete https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fpulse/ ? (the same conent has been duplicated and further modified at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fpulse )
16:51:18 <shachaf> your stomach feels content
16:51:42 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> Hmm, looks like jeffl35 was trying to break HackEgo earlier today <-- i think you are misreading. he only tried install Powershell, and it was days ago.
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16:52:09 <int-e> "The contents of a book is the list of chapters or articles or parts that are in the book, with the number of the page they begin on."
16:54:11 <int-e> The matter of contents vs. content doesn't seem as clear-cut as it should be.
16:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Fpulse/]]": Misnamed version of PULSE, which has the same content.
16:56:28 <oerjan> int-e: sample of the bug i mentioned ^
16:57:57 <oerjan> int-e: i think that definition must be an error.
16:58:14 <HackEgo> indentity function//indentity function is the function that measures how indented source code is.
16:58:22 <HackEgo> sbus//SBus is the standard bus in many a Sun SPARC-based system, capable of coping with thirty-two (32) bits in parallel, at rates of around 16.67 to 25 MHz. There is a 96-pin connector, and the cards lay parallel to the motherboard, like toppings on a sandwich.
16:58:31 <oerjan> oh it seems to be used
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17:05:10 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
17:05:30 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
17:06:16 <oerjan> int-e: um is this something different because it doesn't contain the bug...
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17:06:47 <int-e> oerjan: no, I was wondering if there was some unwords . words in the pipeline, but apparently not.
17:07:22 <oerjan> also, the > var "..." path doesn't destroy all of the 160 bytes, while @tell and @where do.
17:08:01 <oerjan> 160 = 128 + 32, and it seems to get changed into space
17:08:51 <int-e> @tell oerjan now that's interesting ?!
17:09:10 <lambdabot> int-e said 19s ago: now that's interesting ?!
17:09:14 <oerjan> for > it seems to happen at the end of the output only.
17:09:27 <int-e> oerjan: see that's the kind of thing I was expecting.
17:09:32 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
17:10:20 <int-e> but somehow the var thing is different.
17:10:33 <oerjan> well yeah > doesn't collapse spaces.
17:10:36 <int-e> or maybe it's my client...
17:11:07 <int-e> which displays \303\240\303 as à Ã
17:11:11 <oerjan> but > may strip spaces at the end
17:11:54 <oerjan> int-e: octal is too confusing for me
17:12:08 <oerjan> especially since haskell doesn't use it by default
17:12:43 <int-e> `` dc <<<16iC3A0C3P
17:12:43 <oerjan> int-e: my client does the same. it's just defaulting to latin-1/windows-whatever when it's malformed utf-8.
17:13:21 <int-e> okay... it sees that it isn't unicode and treats the whole line as ISO 8859-1. makes sense.
17:14:17 <int-e> oerjan: using irssi
17:14:20 <oerjan> that's HackEgo's initial ZWSP
17:14:53 <int-e> so okay, most things strip trailing spaces, and some a bit more :P
17:17:08 <oerjan> @tell int-e This gives boily à problem when @telling in French...
17:17:10 <int-e> and obviously it's a feature not a bug... *leans back*
17:17:17 <oerjan> (which is how it was discovered)
17:18:09 <oerjan> int-e: the thing is they don't do the stripping unicode-clean
17:18:26 <int-e> @tell oerjan disenfrànchised?
17:18:33 <lambdabot> int-e said 6s ago: disenfrà nchised?
17:19:48 <int-e> it's funny that this hasn't turned up before.
17:21:35 <oerjan> > var "\122\180\224hm"
17:22:10 <oerjan> int-e: well ´à are the only characters affected that are also in latin-1, iiuc
17:24:00 <oerjan> i guess à may be the only one then
17:24:58 <oerjan> oh of course, it's \160 itself.
17:25:12 <oerjan> although no one would use that normally
17:25:37 <oerjan> so à is the most likely character to show problems, unless people do chinese or the like...
17:26:28 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: warning: here-document at line 4 delimited by end-of-file (wanted `16iC4A0P')
17:26:42 <oerjan> > filter isSpace ['\0'..'\255']
17:26:59 <oerjan> it is probably using isSpace
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17:27:31 <oerjan> well yeah i found that one earlier. it's not latin-1, and looks pretty rare.
17:27:45 <int-e> `` dc <<<16iC5A0C6A0C7A0C8A0C9A0CAA0CBA0CCA0CDA0CEA0CFA0P
17:28:00 <int-e> @tell oerjan ŠƠǠȠɠʠˠ̠͠ΠϠ
17:28:11 <lambdabot> int-e said 10s ago: Å Æ Ç È É Ê Ë Ì Í Î Ï
17:28:57 <oerjan> so, nothing remotely common. i guess the first one is used in czech and maybe other slavic languages.
17:29:20 <lambdabot> "\224\288\352\416\480\544\608\672\736\800\864\928\992\1056\1120\1184\1248\13...
17:29:27 <lambdabot> Ã Ä Å Æ Ç È É Ê Ë Ì Í Î Ï Ð Ñ Ò Ó Ô Õ Ö × Ø Ù Ú Û Ü Ý Þ ß à ࡠࢠ࣠ठॠঠৠਠ੠ઠૠଠà ஠௠ఠౠಠೠഠൠච෠ภ๠ຠ໠༠འྠ࿠á á á á á á
á á á á á á á á á
17:30:28 <oerjan> i suspect an unclean cutoff is a danger on long output too
17:31:07 <HackEgo> [U+0420 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ER] [U+0460 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER OMEGA] [U+04A0 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER BASHKIR KA] [U+04E0 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ABKHASIAN DZE]
17:31:33 <oerjan> ok the first one is common in russian etc.
17:31:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: var: not found
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17:32:56 <int-e> `unidecode ḠṠẠỠἠὠᾠῠ†
17:32:57 <HackEgo> [U+1E20 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER G WITH MACRON] [U+1E60 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER S WITH DOT ABOVE] [U+1EA0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH DOT BELOW] [U+1EE0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH HORN AND TILDE] [U+1F20 GREEK SMALL LETTER ETA WITH PSILI] [U+1F60 GREEK SMALL LETTER OMEGA WITH PSILI] [U+1FA0 GREEK SMALL LETTER OMEGA WITH PSILI AND YPOGEGRAMMENI] [U+1FE
17:33:30 <int-e> @google YPOGEGRAMMENI
17:33:32 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_subscript
17:34:09 <HackEgo> [U+01A0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH HORN]
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17:45:06 <oerjan> int-e: oh i didn't see you'd been experimenting in the logs
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17:47:56 <oerjan> ooh i managed to kill the right tmux zombie this time. except it didn't die, but the terminal started working again...
17:49:57 <oerjan> (the last time i tried that, i destroyed the session itself)
17:50:29 <oerjan> it would have been helpful if tmux used different names for the client and server processes, me thinks
17:51:51 <oerjan> hm or maybe it wasn't a zombie, just reacted in the right way
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18:15:23 <zemhill> web.TellsToBeat: points -5.69, score 16.40, rank 15/47
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18:15:56 <zemhill> web.TellsToBeat: points -5.69, score 16.40, rank 15/47 (--)
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18:32:14 <zemhill> web.TellsToBeat: points -2.64, score 19.66, rank 14/47 (+1)
18:38:52 <shachaf> _Five stages of accepting constructive mathematics_, by Andrej Bauer: http://www.ams.org/journals/bull/0000-000-00/S0273-0979-2016-01556-4/
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18:57:08 <HackEgo> Cale: Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)
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18:59:38 <shachaf> Cale: did you see this thing twh <shachaf> _Five stages of accepting constructive mathematics_, by Andrej Bauer: http://www.ams.org/journals/bull/0000-000-00/S0273-0979-2016-01556-4/
19:01:10 <Cale> I have seen Andrej talk about the five stages
19:01:16 <Cale> But I haven't seen that thing
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19:02:14 <lambdabot> boily said 3h 59m 23s ago: hppavellon[1]! an excellent question, to which I have no answer. I wonder how it works...
19:02:14 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 37m 18s ago: <hppavilion[1]> It has a dord of 2502i kg/m^3 <-- ooh i did not know about dord
19:02:14 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 13m 56s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Is there a way to see who the user `ing is? <-- none that we've found.
19:02:14 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 10m 31s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Hmm, looks like jeffl35 was trying to break HackEgo earlier today <-- i think you are misreading. he only tried install Powershell, and it was days ago.
19:02:55 <shachaf> Cale: I think it makes a pretty good case for pointless topology. I should learn more about pointless topology probably.
19:03:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Schrödingpun; it is both a pun AND an actual question)
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19:05:43 <shachaf> I'm thinking it's a lot more of the former than the latter.
19:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: You're the one whose client doesn't like Unicode, correct?
19:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I seem to remember using unnecessary amounts of Unicode one day and you just quitting.
19:07:01 <shachaf> If it was related to anything you did, I suspect you were just being annoying in other ways.
19:07:19 <hppavilion[1]> But generally, some peoples clients don't like unicode
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19:07:36 <hppavilion[1]> But that raises the question of whether ö (as in Gödel and Schrödinger) is OK
19:07:57 <hppavilion[1]> I feel it's not OK to NOT spell "Gödel" with the 'ö'
19:09:33 <hppavilion[1]> Also, are your co-conspirators the people you co-conspire with?
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19:09:59 <shachaf> http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-curse-of-the-diaeresis
19:10:20 <shachaf> Those are not equivalent and you know it, you're just making a tired joke.
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19:12:56 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic)
19:13:45 <hppavilion[1]> Well yes, naïve is still interchangable with naive, AND looks smancier
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19:16:02 <int-e> . o O ( complete the following sentence: #esoteric would be better without... )
19:17:53 <shachaf> This conversation must look odd from int-e's point of view.
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19:21:23 * int-e was going to suggest otherbot though.
19:21:24 <shachaf> Cale: I think we talked about this once before: Is there a point-free definition of manifold?
19:21:50 <HackEgo> Pointless topology is the kind of topology Taneb invents.
19:22:09 <shachaf> `cwlprits pointless topology
19:22:11 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse shachaf shachaf
19:22:23 <shachaf> `forget pointless topology
19:22:24 <hppavilion[1]> ...I feel like the wording a joke that I would get if I knew pointless topology
19:22:39 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
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19:23:23 <shachaf> didn't oerjan invent Tanebventions?
19:23:32 <HackEgo> shaventions include: before/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
19:23:51 <HackEgo> wisdom/pointless topology//Pointless topology is the kind of topology Taneb invents.
19:24:26 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb invented the universe, but did he invent the duverse?
19:24:48 <Cale> shachaf: hmm, I don't think we have, but it's an interesting question -- of course, the usual definitions are nearly points-free already
19:25:55 <shachaf> "every point has an open neighborhood homeomorphic to R^n" seems pretty pointy.
19:26:02 <Cale> at least the "locally homeomorphic to Euclidean space" bit, I think qualifies
19:27:03 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
19:27:27 <shachaf> i,i localely homeomorphic to Euclidean space
19:27:50 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
19:28:40 <shachaf> Maybe I'm missing something obvious.
19:29:56 <shachaf> For example, maybe what I said is equivalent to saying that every open set (or every set of a basis or something) is homeomorphic to R^n? But that doesn't seem likely.
19:31:17 <shachaf> It's approximately . o O ( )
19:32:02 <Cale> shachaf: Perhaps we could go with "every open set contains an open set homeomorphic to R^n"
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19:32:20 <Cale> But I'm not sure this really suffices
19:32:44 <Cale> Because you still might avoid some point like that
19:33:07 <Cale> Perhaps we need to start with a net
19:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, we start with a net. It's only a gain if happens after the start. hth.
19:38:37 <Cale> Suppose we just start with a nested bunch of open sets, and demand that there be a corresponding nested sequence of open subsets of them each of which is homeomorphic to R^n -- nope, still doesn't work
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19:39:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49928&oldid=44687 * TuxCrafting * (-18) Are you joking?
19:40:36 <shachaf> The idea of a "local" property seems pretty important in topology.
19:40:48 <shachaf> So I'd hope that there's an easy way to express properties like that in general.
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20:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> Math notation proposal: Henceforth, «name» unambiguously means a variable named "name", rather than the product of the variables n, a, m, and e (or Euler's constant)
20:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> Without guillemets, it's up to the particular style
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21:02:00 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The white brackets in Neoletters (⦅ ⦆ ⦇ ⦈ ⟦ ⟧ ⦃ ⦄ ⦉ ⦊ ⟬ ⟭) look a little off; kind of ugly... not sure if there's a way to improve it in the exact resolution and style of the font, but I thought I'd say so...
21:02:48 <Phantom_Hoover> maths notation is never, ever unambiguous no matter how hard anyone tries
21:03:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: programming language notation for maths is unambiguous
21:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: And don't worry, it'll still be ambiguous WITHOUT guillemets, and somebody will inevitably invent a constradictory use for guillemets (bitshifts seem likely, as do string delimination)
21:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, and nobody uses it unless they're working on computer science
21:04:32 <ais523> when I translated an example from my thesis into a bunch of programming languages during my PhD
21:04:43 <ais523> it was noticeable how much more work writing the programming-language version was than the mathematical verison
21:04:47 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, here's a horrifying sentence: "Assume two categories C and D which are co-dual"
21:05:02 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: But most people are internally unambiguous, at least mostly
21:06:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Like, the order of operations is used- some people vary it, but it's usually the same- that makes it unambiguous that 3+2*4 is 3+(2*4) = 24 *OR* (3+2)*4 = 20, and it's always the same)
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21:41:19 <ais523> I don't think you can put non-pure-numbers in an exponent? other than possibly dB
21:41:46 <int-e> ais523: have you played with any proof assistants?
21:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> The unit ^1/2 (or maybe it's -1/2) is used in electromagnetism or something
21:42:05 <ais523> int-e: actually using them, no; however one of my former coworkers was an Agda expert
21:42:09 <ais523> so I've seen them in use beforen ow
21:44:32 <ais523> dioptres are hard enough to understand
21:44:49 <ais523> I can do the maths but I still don't really have an intuitive understanding of what a dioptre is
21:48:16 <ais523> hertz-seconds are just frequency × duration, so they count a number of occurrences
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21:48:25 <ais523> therefore you shouldn't be surprised that the result is a pure number
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21:48:34 <shachaf> I made the argument that speeds ought to be measured in e.g. miles per second, or hours per hundred kilometres, or something.
21:48:44 <hppavilion[1]> You should also give it in femto hertz-seconds, multiplied by a billiard
21:48:58 <ais523> shachaf: dioptres per hertz?
21:49:09 <shachaf> time/distance seems more reasonable in a lot of ways than distance/time
21:50:40 <shachaf> For many of the same reasons that people argue for measuring fuel usage in litres per hundred kilometres.
21:50:51 <shachaf> Yes. Or inverse speed, whatever.
21:51:04 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Oh, is this for the same reason as a(+)b = 1/((1/a)+(1/b))?
21:51:08 <shachaf> time/distance makes sense because you're paying time, and getting distance in return.
21:52:39 <shachaf> If I'm in a vehicle moving at 30 seconds per mile, I pay 60 seconds to move 2 miles.
21:53:10 <Taneb> Force-second-seconds per kilogram-meter
21:53:25 <Taneb> (I have no idea what anyone would want that for)
21:53:50 <ais523> shachaf: 30 seconds per mile is 120mph, that's a pretty fast speed…
21:54:08 <shachaf> OK, I mixed it up at the last moment.
21:54:18 <ais523> I'm not even sure that speed is legally possible via any means of surface transport in the UK, I think our fastest trains only go up to 115mph
21:54:24 <ais523> (might have misremembered that though)
21:54:27 <shachaf> Taneb: if i'm ever involved in a duel, i'll force you to be my second hth
21:54:48 <Taneb> shachaf, I would rather you didn't, duels are illegal in most jurisdictions
21:55:09 <ais523> what about nonlethal duels?
21:55:12 <ais523> say, you duel with paintball guns
21:55:27 <shachaf> they're not illegal in categorical russia
21:55:28 <Taneb> That is fine, but I am not a good shot
21:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> (I feel like + is probably alternation. As always.)
21:56:18 <shachaf> ais523: https://twitter.com/wolfpupy/status/270056061787074560 hth
21:56:47 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I find it most sensible if I interpret it as disjoint union
21:56:51 <ais523> although it's still ridiculous
21:57:07 <shachaf> ais523: Apparently there are 140mph trains in the UK now.
21:57:17 <ais523> oh right, I forgot about HS1
21:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> (L+1)/T is a measurement of speed (L/T) AND frequency (1/T)
21:57:32 <ais523> with all the row there's been about HS2 I forgot there was a high-speed line open already
21:58:05 <ais523> to be fair, I should have guessed from the name
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22:11:16 <shachaf> What are united values, anyway?
22:12:08 <shachaf> Are they some sort of field extension?
22:19:25 <shachaf> Vectors don't really work because you can multiply and divide them.
22:24:24 <ais523> disjoint unions can be multiplied and divided pointwise
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22:25:25 <shachaf> What do you mean by disjoint unions?
22:26:50 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I should add units to the whole Leibniz thing I was wondering about. y = f(t) m; x = f(t) s
22:28:03 <shachaf> Anyway, thinking of it as a ring extension or something seems to work pretty well? Just a synthetic element.
22:29:02 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( n squared: the area of a square n units on edge -> n triangled: the area of an equilateral triangle n units on edge )
22:30:41 <ais523> shachaf: a disjoint union is bascially like a C union except that it knows which value is set at any given time
22:30:53 <shachaf> I know what a disjoint union is in general.
22:31:20 <shachaf> I don't know what you mean in this case. But maybe now I see.
22:31:24 <ais523> (m + s) would be a disjoint union that can either be set to a number of metres, or to a number of seconds, and knows which
22:31:36 <ais523> I'm not convinced it's useful but it does at least seem to be well-defined
22:32:55 <shachaf> Presumably either metres or seconds, with a multiplier on the latter.
22:33:04 <shachaf> OK, I guess 5 m = 5 m + 0 s
22:33:16 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Apparently, tri(n) = n*sqrt(n^2-(n/2)^2)/2 )
22:34:13 <shachaf> But then I'm not sure what sort of disjoint union that is.
22:34:37 <shachaf> Unless you disallow 0 s somehow.
22:36:28 <ais523> shachaf: no, not "5m + 0s" if that's addition
22:36:46 <ais523> it's just that 5m is an instance of type (m+s), and 10s would also be an instnace of type (m+s)
22:36:56 <ais523> and 0m and 0s are different instances of the type
22:37:14 <hppavilion[1]> The kth n-(d-tope) number. Ultimate generalization.
22:37:23 <shachaf> I think that's quite different from what hpp was talking about.
22:38:51 <shachaf> I guess I was assuming some sort of linearity thing.
22:39:03 <shachaf> But that doesn't work with e.g. degrees C or F.
22:40:11 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: a definition of (m+s) as a disjoint union of metres and seconds
22:41:51 <ais523> disjoint union is the dual of cartesian product
22:41:51 <ais523> I haven't heard it called cartesian sum before now though
22:42:05 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... Position is where you are and is measured in m**k in k-space (here, ** is different from ^; ^ is power, ** is tuple). Let's just go with 1-space.
22:42:32 <shachaf> I thought hpp was talking about adding a value like 5 m to a value like 3 s
22:42:47 <shachaf> But on rereading I misunderstood, actually.
22:42:57 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That would presumably be 8(m+s) or somesuch
22:42:58 <shachaf> That's quite different from 5 (m+s)
22:43:19 <shachaf> No, 5m+3s isn't (5+3)(m+s)
22:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> I figured it'd be alternation (like Kleene), ais523 went with cartesian sum.
22:43:39 <hppavilion[1]> (I insist that it must be called "cartesian sum", just to make it clear how this is)
22:43:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Is there such thing as cartesian power by this logic?)
22:43:54 <shachaf> But I'd expect that m+s = 1m+1s
22:43:56 <hppavilion[1]> Position is measured in m. Velocity is the derivative of position with respect to time- how much your position changes with respect to time- and is measured m/s
22:44:16 <ais523> metres to the power of seconds is a function from seconds to metres
22:44:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The answer for 1m+1s, intuition tells me, is probably related to that one math scene from a movie I can't remember
22:45:50 <hppavilion[1]> Where they were saying "if it takes Alice 3 hours to paint a house and Bob 4 hours, how long will it take Alice and Bob to paint 1 house together?"
22:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> And I suddenly can't remember how you find the solution, but I'm sure I can derive it in a few seconds
22:46:22 <ais523> Alice paints ⅓ of a house per hour, Bob paints ¼ of a house per hour
22:46:36 <ais523> thus they paint 7/12 of a house per hour together (painting parallelizes well)
22:46:46 <ais523> and can complete the job in 12/7 of an hour
22:46:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:46:57 <ais523> this is just your harmonic sum operator :-P
22:50:13 <shachaf> Another common operation is 1-(1-p)(1-q)
22:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That's fuzzy OR preserving De Morgan, iirc?
22:51:32 -!- ais523 has quit.
22:51:41 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's how you do OR in fuzzy logic, where instead of 0 or 1, you have any real number in the interval from 0 to 1, inclusive
22:52:49 <shachaf> I would say probability rather than fuzzy logic.
22:53:35 <hppavilion[1]> For fuzzy values U, V which correspond to real numbers u, v, not U = 1-u, U and V = u*v, U or V = not ((not U) and (not V)) = 1-(1-u)(1-v)
22:55:01 <shachaf> The point is that it's kind of like a dual of that harmonic sum.
22:55:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
22:55:29 <shachaf> Maybe there's a demorgan-style interepretation of it.
22:55:33 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Not to be confused with harmonic difference?
22:55:50 <shachaf> The dual of product isn't division.
22:56:02 <shachaf> Well, this isn't really a dual anyway.
22:56:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:57:15 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Trigonometric sum x<+>y: asin(sin(x)+sin(y)) )
22:57:23 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Catslash/Parallel_sum
22:57:36 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: A more interesting operation uses atanh
22:57:59 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I figured it probably wouldn't be sine; especially because you need the cosine equivalent anyway
22:58:16 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapidity
22:58:40 <shachaf> This is how you add velocities.
22:58:52 <shachaf> In the real world. :-( The real world is a mess.
22:59:27 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity-addition_formula
23:00:04 <shachaf> But this person is answering all your questions, yo
23:00:21 <Warrigal> Hey, there's an esolang contest.
23:00:24 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
23:04:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:05:33 <tswett> Does anyone know anything about the organizers?
23:06:17 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:08:26 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:08:42 * pikhq flips off Century Link
23:09:47 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, they just like to drop connection entirely on a whim.
23:15:44 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:23:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:31:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcoerjan: not found
23:32:00 <shachaf> What! I thought that one existed.
23:32:09 <HackEgo> bin/oerjan \ bin/quoerjan \ bin/quørjan \ bin/translatetoerjan \ bin/zalgoerjan
23:32:27 <HackEgo> 593) <oerjan> elliott: it occurs to me that `? welcome is atypical: its information is actually true.
23:32:55 <shachaf> There are at least three indicators that it's old.
23:32:55 <HackEgo> 1158) <ørjan> `quote 1146 <HackEgo> 1146) <ørjan> OKAY \ 100) <ørjan> alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely gøs against my basic public toilet hygiene principles \ 346) <elliott_> I'm not even going to try and understand what you're proposing. <ørjan> i understand it perf
23:33:47 <shachaf> isn't it great when everything gøs the way you expected
23:35:45 <HackEgo> 2013-01-12 <shachaf> cp -a bin/quoerjan bin/qu\xc3\xb8rjan \ 2013-01-12 <FreeFull> revert 4 \ 2013-01-12 <elliott> revert 1492 \ 2013-01-22 <fizzie> sed -i -e \'s#shuf#shuf | sed s/oe/\xc3\xb8/g#\' bin/qu\xc3\xb8rjan # department of redundancy removal department (it was identical to quoerjan) \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 3 \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> re
23:35:57 <FreeFull> I'm looking for a song, I don't remember the lyrics or name. https://clyp.it/ajmvcdqh It went something like this. First half is a vocal part, second half is an electric guitar part
23:36:06 <FreeFull> Might as well post this here, since I got highlighted =P
23:36:51 <shachaf> fizzie: s/department of redundancy removal department/department of removal department/ hth
23:37:03 * oerjan doesn't recognize that
23:37:19 <oerjan> needs more vocals, at least
23:38:55 <oerjan> there's of course the entirely likely possibility i don't know it
23:39:18 <oerjan> have you tried one of the websites for such things
23:40:36 <HackEgo> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
23:41:15 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
23:41:31 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
23:42:26 <HackEgo> hg log --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
23:42:36 <shachaf> hoag = handsome doag, doag = delicious hoag?
23:42:45 <HackEgo> doag "wisdom/$1" \ #!/bin/sh \ echo $1: You\'ve been downvoted! \ hoag "wisdom/$1" \ #!/bin/bash \ tr A-Z a-z | sed 's/Ø/ø/g' \ lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; cat "$f"; done \ #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr \)\( \(\)
23:42:48 <FreeFull> oerjan: https://clyp.it/oufnawod This is closer to being accurate
23:42:57 <HackEgo> doag "wisdom/$1" \ hoag "wisdom/$1"
23:43:08 <HackEgo> bin/dowg \ bin/downvote \ bin/howg \ bin/lowercase \ bin/now \ bin/wow
23:43:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr \)\( \(\)
23:43:58 <HackEgo> lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; cat "$f"; done
23:44:15 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2016-06-12 <shachaf> mkx bin/now//lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; cat "$f"; done
23:44:24 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
23:44:54 <oerjan> `mkx bin/hlnp//hg log "$@" | sed 's/.>/\x0F&/g'
23:44:54 <shachaf> How about a one-line diff program?
23:45:08 <shachaf> It would highlight deleted text in red and new text in green, or something.
23:45:30 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/hg log/hlnp/' bin/hoag
23:45:43 <HackEgo> <oerjan> ` sed -i \'s/hg log/hlnp/\' bin/hoag \ <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ <shachaf> sled bin/hoag//s/"\\$@"/-- "$@"/ \ <shachaf> ` mv bin/ho{gue,ag}
23:45:55 <oerjan> shachaf: did that work
23:46:07 <oerjan> as in, you were not pinged
23:46:19 <shachaf> But it did mess up my terminal.
23:46:26 <shachaf> But I think that was just HackEgo's zero-width space.
23:46:58 <oerjan> ...but then all hoag uses must do that (except empty output)
23:47:40 <oerjan> `sled bin/culprits//s/sed.*/xargs
23:47:41 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 13: unterminated `s' command
23:47:53 <oerjan> `sled bin/culprits//s/sed.*/xargs/
23:47:55 <HackEgo> bin/culprits//hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs
23:48:08 <HackEgo> oerjan fizzie jeffl35 shachaf shachaf
23:49:32 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/hg log/hlnp/' bin/{doag,hog}
23:49:58 <HackEgo> 2016-10-10 <oerjan> ` sed -i \'s/hg log/hlnp/\' bin/{doag,hog} \ 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2016-06-27 <shachaf> mkx bin/doag//hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\\n" -- "$@"
23:50:26 <oerjan> there, now they noping uniformly.
23:50:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wdiff: not found
23:50:41 <oerjan> `` grep -l 'hg log' bin/*
23:50:45 <HackEgo> bin/before \ bin/culprits-ng \ bin/hlnp \ bin/lastfiles
23:51:14 <oerjan> `` grep 'hg log' bin/*
23:51:15 <HackEgo> bin/before:lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; hg cat -r "$(hg log --removed --template '{rev}\n' "$f" | tail -n+2 | head -n1)" "$f"; done \ bin/culprits-ng:exec hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- "$@" | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "' \ bin/hlnp:hg log "$@" | sed 's/.>/\x0F&/g' \ bin/lastfiles:hg log --removed -l 1 --temp
23:51:21 <HackEgo> bin/lastfiles \ bin/lastwisdoms \ bin/emmental \ bin/macro \ bin/jq \ bin/hlnp \ bin/culprits-ng \ bin/searchlog \ bin/hurl \ bin/url \ bin/undo \ bin/7za \ bin/tclkit \ bin/before \ bin/word \ bin/units
23:52:29 <HackEgo> bin/doag bin/hog//bin/doag bin/hog: no such file in rev a3d0764a84b0
23:52:50 <HackEgo> lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; hg cat -r "$(hg log --removed --template '{rev}\n' "$f" | tail -n+2 | head -n1)" "$f"; done
23:53:17 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files}\n" -- "$@"
23:53:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- "$@" | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "'
23:53:35 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed -l 2 --template "{files}\n" --
23:53:50 <oerjan> `culprits-ng bin/culprits-ng
23:53:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/culprits-ng: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/culprits-ng: cannot execute: Permission denied
23:53:55 <shachaf> How are you supposed to tell the files apart?
23:54:09 <oerjan> `` ls -l bin/culprits-ng
23:54:10 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 101 Sep 25 20:32 bin/culprits-ng
23:54:10 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 101 Sep 25 20:32 bin/culprits-ng
23:54:28 <shachaf> Wasn't that b_jonas's pet project?
23:54:33 <shachaf> you can't delete people's pets
23:54:39 <HackEgo> 2016-10-10 <oerjan> rm bin/culprits-ng \ 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-02-25 <b_jonas> `` chmod 644 bin/culprits-ng \ 2016-02-25 <b_jonas> perl -e($o="bin/culprits-ng"
23:55:16 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:55:17 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec hg log -l 512 --template "{desc}\0" -- "$@" | perl -0ne '/^<([^>]*)>/ and print"$1 "'
23:55:28 <oerjan> obviously nothing uses it anyhow
23:56:20 <shachaf> someone should fix lastfiles (oerjan)
23:57:08 <oerjan> FreeFull: ok still no clue
23:57:30 <shachaf> `fetch http://mirror.keystealth.org/gnu/wdiff/wdiff-latest.tar.gz
23:57:40 <HackEgo> 2016-10-10 22:57:11 URL:http://mirror.keystealth.org/gnu/wdiff/wdiff-latest.tar.gz [1478567/1478567] -> "wdiff-latest.tar.gz" [1]
23:58:06 <shachaf> `` mkdir tmp/wdiff; cp wdiff-latest.tar.gz tmp/wdiff/
23:58:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> How about a one-line diff program? <-- you go right ahead ;P
23:58:47 <shachaf> `` cd tmp/wdiff/; tar -xzvf wdiff-latest.tar.gz
23:58:49 <HackEgo> wdiff-1.2.2/ \ wdiff-1.2.2/tests/ \ wdiff-1.2.2/tests/cluster.at \ wdiff-1.2.2/tests/testsuite.at \ wdiff-1.2.2/tests/testsuite \ wdiff-1.2.2/tests/wdiff.at \ wdiff-1.2.2/tests/package.m4 \ wdiff-1.2.2/config.h.in \ wdiff-1.2.2/README \ wdiff-1.2.2/Makefile.am \ wdiff-1.2.2/COPYING \ wdiff-1.2.2/configure.ac \ wdiff-1.2.2/src/ \ wdiff-1.2.2/src/wdi
23:59:01 <shachaf> `` cd tmp/wdiff/; ./configure
23:59:01 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: ./configure: No such file or directory
00:02:11 <oerjan> <shachaf> How are you supposed to tell the files apart? <-- well-known bug? maybe one could make a \NUL separating version?
00:02:12 <shachaf> `` cd tmp/wdiff/wdiff-1.2.2/; ./configure
00:02:54 <shachaf> `` cd tmp/wdiff/wdiff-1.2.2/; ls Make*
00:03:07 <shachaf> `1 cd tmp/wdiff/wdiff-1.2.2/; ls
00:03:08 <HackEgo> 1/1:ABOUT-NLS \ aclocal.m4 \ AUTHORS \ BACKLOG \ build-aux \ ChangeLog \ confdefs.h \ config.h.in \ config.log \ configure \ configure.ac \ COPYING \ doc \ GNUmakefile \ INSTALL \ lib \ m4 \ maint.mk \ Makefile.am \ Makefile.in \ man \ NEWS \ po \ README \ src \ tests \ THANKS \ TODO
00:03:14 <shachaf> `1 cd tmp/wdiff/wdiff-1.2.2/; make
00:03:16 <HackEgo> 1/1:make: -n: Command not found \ There seems to be no Makefile in this directory. \ You must run ./configure before running 'make'. \ make: *** [abort-due-to-no-makefile] Error 1
00:03:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:03:39 <shachaf> `1 cd tmp/wdiff/wdiff-1.2.2/; ls src
00:03:40 <HackEgo> 1/1:Makefile.am \ Makefile.in \ mdiff.c \ pipes.c \ unify.c \ wdiff2.c \ wdiff.c \ wdiff.h
00:04:03 <shachaf> `1 cd tmp/wdiff/wdiff-1.2.2/; gcc -o test src/*.c -I src/
00:04:07 <HackEgo> 1/3:In file included from src/mdiff.c:20:0: \ src/wdiff.h:19:20: fatal error: config.h: No such file or directory \ compilation terminated. \ In file included from src/pipes.c:20:0: \ src/wdiff.h:19:20: fatal error: config.h: No such file or directory \ compilation terminated. \ In file included from src/unify.c:23:0: \ src/wdiff.h:
00:04:23 <shachaf> `1 cd tmp/wdiff/wdiff-1.2.2/; ./configure
00:04:36 <hppavilion[1]> If we define 'lying' as 'saying something that you do not believe to be true', then it seems 'I\'m lying' ceases to be a paradox
00:04:56 <shachaf> "paradox" is kind of meaningless, so it doesn't.
00:05:11 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But if paradox is meaningless then... oh, wait, that's logically consistent
00:05:50 <shachaf> i answer hard acrostics, i've a pretty taste for paradox
00:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> (That particular definition is important- you have to not believe it to be true (not the same as- but containing if you're consistent- believing it to be false), that doesn't mean your belief has to be correct)
00:07:21 <shachaf> There's no excuse for a program this simple not being buildable within the constraints.
00:08:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Quick definition: ZF is Zermelo-Fraenkel explicitly excluding the Axiom of Choice, ZFC is including it, and ZF* covers both ZF and ZFC, for when the Axiom of Choice isn't needed here)
00:15:12 <hppavilion[1]> Does the part of ZF* that bans a universal set (a set containing itself) only ban sets directly containing themselves (that is, S ∈ S), or does it ban it recursively (which is defined as v ∈∈ S iff v ∈ S ∨ ∃s:[s ∈ S](v ∈∈ S) )?
00:15:52 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:16:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there is no explicit ban. it simply does not give a means of constructing such a set.
00:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> I want to be able to quantify over all sets (or a subset of all sets satisfying a property), and Russell ruined it for me :,(
00:17:09 <shachaf> ZF doesn't exclude the axiom of choice.
00:17:12 <oerjan> however, the axioms of regularity might be considered a ban, but it's optional.
00:17:59 <oerjan> (it says, in one of its equivalent formulations, that there is no infinitely descending chain of sets.)
00:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I seem to remember that the C in ZFC means "ZF with the Axiom of Choice", which presumably means ZF is just ZF (and doesn't have the axiom of choice)
00:18:15 <shachaf> It doesn't have its negation either.
00:18:31 <shachaf> Any theorem of ZF is a theorem of ZFC.
00:18:38 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Oh, whoops, I meant "exclude" as in "doesn't include"
00:18:39 -!- Froox has joined.
00:18:50 <shachaf> OK, but the thing you called ZF* is just ZF.
00:19:13 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: OK, then how do I say "ZF, explicitly without taking the Axiom of Choice"
00:19:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also i cannot read your fancy math symbols in this putty terminal.
00:20:14 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Formally, nothing. The distinction is just so you can say "this is true without the axiom of choice"
00:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> But then again, you don't need a symbol for and and or; you can do it all with nor
00:21:14 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Strictly speaking, you don't need a symbol that means AND or a symbol that means OR in logic
00:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: We could do with nothing but a symbol for NOR
00:21:30 -!- Froox has quit (Client Quit).
00:21:35 <hppavilion[1]> But we have those symbols anyway because it makes everything easier to understand
00:21:37 <shachaf> What does that have to do with anything?
00:21:54 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well I figured that was a good reason to have ZF*, but I concede that you have a good poitn
00:21:56 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:22:07 <shachaf> I don't see any distinction here.
00:23:13 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:23:35 <oerjan> <shachaf> didn't oerjan invent Tanebventions? <-- pretty sure i didn't.
00:24:16 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | tac
00:24:18 <HackEgo> 2013-01-31 <oerjan> mv wisdom/tanebventions wisdom/tanebvention \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 3 \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ 2013-08-27 <oerjan> mv wisdom/tanebvention{s,} \ 2013-08-28 <boily> cp wisdom/tanebventions wisdom/tanebvention \ 2013-11-30 <oerjan> sed -i \'s/torus,/torus, Stephen Wolfram,/\' wisdom/tanebvention \ 2013
00:24:25 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebventions | tac
00:24:27 <HackEgo> 2013-01-31 <Taneb> learn Tanebventions include D-modules and automatic squirrel feeders \ 2013-01-31 <oerjan> mv wisdom/tanebventions wisdom/tanebvention \ 2013-08-27 <Taneb> learn Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go \ 2013-08-27 <oerjan> mv wisdom/tanebvention{s,} \ 2013-08-28 <Taneb> learn Tanebventions includ
00:25:00 <oerjan> Taneb: i get a sense you're a bit slow on the uptake
00:25:38 -!- Frooxius has joined.
00:26:03 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebventions | tac | tail -4
00:26:05 <HackEgo> 2013-08-27 <Taneb> learn Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go \ 2013-08-27 <oerjan> mv wisdom/tanebvention{s,} \ 2013-08-28 <Taneb> learn Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go. \ 2013-08-28 <oerjan> rm wisdom/tanebventions
00:26:30 <oerjan> `1 dowg tanebventions | tac
00:26:32 <HackEgo> 1/2:2013-01-31 <Taneb> learn Tanebventions include D-modules and automatic squirrel feeders \ 2013-01-31 <oerjan> mv wisdom/tanebventions wisdom/tanebvention \ 2013-08-27 <Taneb> learn Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go \ 2013-08-27 <oerjan> mv wisdom/tanebvention{s,} \ 2013-08-28 <Taneb> learn
00:26:43 <HackEgo> 2/2:Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go. \ 2013-08-28 <oerjan> rm wisdom/tanebventions
00:33:00 <oerjan> <Cale> shachaf: Perhaps we could go with "every open set contains an open set homeomorphic to R^n" <-- seems to me that you want a covering by them.
00:33:32 <HackEgo> 2013-01-24 <oerjan> fmt wisdom/d-modules >wisdom/d-module; rm wisdom/d-modules \ 2013-01-24 <oerjan> sed -i -e \'1N\' -e \'s/\\n//\' wisdom/d-module \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 3 \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ 2013-04-14 <Phantom_Hoover> >>wisdom/d-module echo \' Possibly they are also a torus.\' \ 2013-04-14 <shachaf> revert
00:33:41 <HackEgo> 2013-01-24 <Phantom_Hoover> learn D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. \ 2013-01-24 <Phantom_Hoover> echo >>wisdom/d-modules " Taneb invented them." \ 2013-01-24 <oerjan> fmt wisdom/d-modules >wisdom/d-module; rm wisdom/d-modules \ 2013-01-24 <Taneb> learn D-Modules are simply modules in the ring of differential
00:33:56 <shachaf> Aha, Phantom_Hoover invented Tanebventions.
00:35:56 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:36:04 -!- centrinia has joined.
00:36:25 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions//s#Tanebventions, ##
00:36:40 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s#Tanebventions, ##
00:36:42 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:37:06 <shachaf> Taneb is trying to take credit for something he didn't invent.
00:38:02 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions//s#and#the Oxford comma, and#
00:38:24 <shachaf> I keep rememering that it's not the one I expect it to be.
00:38:26 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s#and#the Oxford comma, and#
00:38:28 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:38:48 <HackEgo> This sentence was invented by shachaf. Taneb invented it.
00:39:20 <shachaf> `slwd this sentence//s#[^\.]+#This sentence is just#
00:39:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/this sentence//This sentence was invented by shachaf. Taneb invented it.
00:39:30 <shachaf> `slwd this sentence//s#[^\.]\+#This sentence is just#
00:39:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/this sentence//This sentence is just. Taneb invented it.
00:41:01 <oerjan> `sled bin/slwd//s/$/ | sed 's/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
00:41:02 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 15: unknown option to `s'
00:41:26 <oerjan> `sled bin/slwd//s,$, | sed 's/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/',
00:41:28 <HackEgo> bin/slwd//sled "wisdom/$1" | sed 's/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
00:43:32 <oerjan> that's not foolproof is it.
00:44:08 <oerjan> `sled bin/slwd//s,s/,1s/,
00:44:10 <HackEgo> bin/slwd//sled "wisdom/$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
00:46:30 <oerjan> `` echo 'test' > "$(echo 'Rosebud!')"
00:46:45 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ Rosebud! \ share \ src \ test \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
00:47:11 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
00:47:26 <shachaf> oerjan: Maybe use exit status instead?
00:47:42 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian).
00:48:09 <oerjan> except how do you do that and handle output
00:48:33 <shachaf> the perils of confusing user interfaces and apis
00:49:03 <oerjan> well it'd require someone making a very special file, anyway.
00:49:08 <oerjan> so i guess it's fine enough.
00:49:22 <shachaf> Make it even more special by requiring ^Rosebud!$
00:50:16 <oerjan> it doesn't even work then. i think it's good enough.
00:50:47 <oerjan> the output will always start with wisdom/
00:51:43 <oerjan> tmux locked up in that bad mode again. and killing the oldest one fixed it, again.
00:52:11 <oerjan> it seems to happen after network errors.
00:54:22 <oerjan> (or potentially, with usage, which works just as well.)
00:56:30 <\oren\> Looks like my suggestion has gotten into some of the more prominent unicode people's heads. horray
00:58:28 <pikhq> Not that surprised. Unicode seems like it'll add anything that's faintly reasonable to encode.
01:01:14 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn censorship/The worst part of censorship is that it kills humor, thus preventing us from ironically redacting this wisdum.
01:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> What's the word for a single entry into the wisdom database?
01:01:43 <shachaf> \oren\: Can you please get play/pause/fast forward/rewind/etc. into the Unicode people's heads?
01:02:05 <shachaf> Best would be to delete that wisdom entry.
01:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I seem to remember Unicode already having it...
01:02:42 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
01:04:07 <\oren\> i dunno. but my font has them
01:04:15 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And yet they don't have question comma or any of Brah's stuff...
01:05:42 <\oren\> the characters for some reason can't be pasted into this terminal?A??A
01:06:20 <\oren\> or perhaps can't be copied?
01:07:52 <shachaf> Unicode Character 'STRAIGHTNESS' (U+23E4)
01:09:02 <shachaf> That is not a play or pause button.
01:09:13 <shachaf> It's a triangle and a double vertical bar.
01:09:24 <\oren\> something is terribly worng
01:09:51 <\oren\> at least on my end, apparently hppavilion[1] it is working
01:10:31 <shachaf> Never mind fast forward and rewind and everything.
01:10:50 <\oren\> shachaf: they should be showing up
01:11:13 <\oren\> shachaf: anyway, they are here http://unicode-table.com/en/blocks/miscellaneous-technical/
01:11:21 <\oren\> at the end of that block
01:12:04 <shachaf> Not sure why I didn't find them when I was doing http://slbkbs.org/jsgif/
01:12:15 <shachaf> Or maybe I did find them but they didn't render properly.
01:13:05 <\oren\> yeah, and I have no idea why they, of all the characters, show up online but not in my terminal
01:17:48 <\oren\> I think tmux may be screwing with them
01:18:13 <\oren\> I shall be very pissed if that is so
01:18:43 <oerjan> my tmux sees them fine
01:19:12 <\oren\> well, your tmux might not be the newest version
01:20:22 <oerjan> it has at least one other annoying bug, as mentioned above
01:24:41 <\oren\> Ok, never mind, it is ultimately caused by whatever morons wrote the wchar.h on my system
01:26:32 -!- otherbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:30:46 <pikhq> Which libc you using?
01:33:15 <\oren\> I think it must be glibc
01:33:40 <pikhq> shachaf: jsgif doesn't work on the example given. HTH.
01:38:49 <\oren\> we are 5 versions behind therefore
01:39:04 <HackEgo> ldd: unrecognized option `-version' \ Try `ldd --help' for more information.
01:39:10 <HackEgo> ldd (Debian EGLIBC 2.13-38) 2.13 \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. \ Written by Roland McGrath and Ulrich Drepper.
01:39:24 <\oren\> but hackego is even further behind
01:40:09 <\oren\> I think I'll just modify tmux to use a custom wcswidth function
01:40:38 <pikhq> Aaaah, yes, you're using a version of glibc with an old wcwidth table.
01:40:38 <\oren\> instead of figuring out how to install a newer libc on my computer
01:41:20 <\oren\> which, for some reason, assumes that invalid characters have zero width
01:41:38 <pikhq> Yup, it does exactly that.
01:42:11 <\oren\> yah, I'm modifying it to have block-based assumptions
01:42:48 <pikhq> 2.22 up do just that.
01:43:00 <\oren\> e.g. it's probable that any character added to the supplementary ideographic plane is wide
01:43:45 <\oren\> or maybe i'll grab the new libc's wcwidth
01:44:40 <pikhq> If you download http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/glibc/glibc-2.22.tar.xz , gzip localedata/charmaps/UTF-8 into /usr/share/i18n/charmaps/UTF-8.gz , and copy localedata/locales/i18n to /usr/share/i18n/locales/i18n , and rerun locale-gen, you'll have it updated.
01:45:24 <pikhq> (this is because glibc uses a stupidly generic locale system and doesn't have it compiled into libc at all. Which means it can handle arbitrary charsets.)
01:47:18 <hppavilion[1]> That, through the roll of the dice, happens to reproduce sexually in a way similar to humans
01:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> Would it still be meaningful to sort "male" and "female"?
01:49:15 <HackEgo> 920) <ørjan> maybe i was violated by a pole once \ 18) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <ørjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste" \ 302) <augur> ørjan you're swedish, right? \ 357) <ørjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born. \ 362) <ørjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i
01:50:26 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I think the tradition is that the big reproductive cells are considered female and the little reproductive cells are considered male.
01:50:27 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, did oerjan formerly actually use ørjan as a nick?
01:50:32 <tswett> What are those called? Gametes?
01:50:45 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: no, I think the command replaces all occurrences of "oe" with "ø".
01:51:01 <tswett> They are haploid cells.
01:51:13 <tswett> Of course, you can't tell which gametes are bigger without a microscope.
01:51:36 <pikhq> Apparently there's also "rules" for how to handle the case when the two reproductive cells are identical in size.
01:51:51 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be spending a lot of time thinking about bags
01:51:58 <pikhq> ... Namely, you pick one arbitrarily.
01:52:22 <pikhq> Though typically they're classed as "+" and "-" rather than "male" and "female".
01:52:25 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: What if they're also identical in everything else? That is, sexual reproduction with only 1 mating type
01:52:57 <hppavilion[1]> ...well then you don't have to distinguish, do you?
01:53:05 <tswett> Would that still be called sexual?
01:53:10 <tswett> Yeah, I think it would be.
01:53:28 <pikhq> tswett: If it's a sharing of genetic material between two individuals, it would be.
01:53:32 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yes, sexual reproduction is just "exchange and mix DNA"
01:53:35 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: You wouldn't have to distinguish.
01:53:43 <tswett> This reminds me of my...
01:53:52 <tswett> Well, it's probably not appropriate for this channel.
01:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> First, I'm heirarchizing the various types of set the same way as numbers
01:54:14 <tswett> That alien race I fantasized one day.
01:54:21 <tswett> I call them the "Musaro".
01:54:31 <tswett> Black, fuzzy, no eyes.
01:54:51 <hppavilion[1]> (So a bag (aka multiset) isn't similar-to-but-different-from a set; a set is just a special case of a bag)
01:55:05 <tswett> They're genderless, or all the same gender or whatever.
01:55:18 <tswett> Should you ask? I'll let you use your own judgement.
01:55:24 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You can say genderless, because the gender flag is 0 bits
01:55:45 -!- \oren\ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
01:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> (that's why a HUMAN can't be truly genderless; they still identify as *something*, even if it's just abstaining- they're like atheists)
01:56:26 <pikhq> shachaf: It can't parse the GIF, apparently
01:56:48 <hppavilion[1]> (Atheism isn't a religion, but if you were to ask their religion they'd say "Atheist" (or more likely "none", which is equivalent))
01:57:31 <hppavilion[1]> So the relation between sets and bags is like the relation between integers and rationals; rationals aren't a distinct object with similarities to integers, they're a strict superset
01:57:50 <pikhq> Oh, d'oh! I have Chrome's "data saver" on, which is serving me something other than a GIF.
01:58:10 <hppavilion[1]> Also, the reciprocal of an ibag (integral bag; multiplicity can be negative) is the same BUT with all multiplicities negated
01:58:18 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Wait, did oerjan formerly actually use ørjan as a nick? <-- that isn't technically possible on freenode
01:59:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
02:00:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Which is nice for, for example, positive rational numbers; since any number >= 1 can be represented as a unique product of primes, you can represent a number as its prime factorization- with negative powers for the denominator- in the form of a bag with items in the factorization with multiplicity of its power)
02:00:13 <pikhq> Yup, it's because the data saver transcodes GIF to WebP.
02:00:29 <pikhq> And jsgif *clearly* doesn't do jack with a WebP.
02:00:43 <shachaf> Actually it should be scrapped.
02:00:52 <shachaf> It has the most inefficient LZW algorithm imaginable.
02:01:02 <shachaf> Something like O(n^2) space, I think it was?
02:01:04 <hppavilion[1]> And if you take the reciprocal of such an ibag as defined, it represents the reciprocal of the rational number the original ibag represents
02:02:55 <shachaf> Unless that one is a phi. I don't know Greek.
02:03:23 <shachaf> I don't know Scientology either.
02:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> Is it considered better practice to transcribe Greek symbols into plain Latin by writing the names of capitals in FULL CAPS or just Capitalizing the first letter?
02:04:08 <fizzie> I saw a Scientology bus in Mountain View once.
02:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Where I live, Mountain View is the name of the bad part of town, so every time I see it referring to Google I get confused
02:04:46 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think just the first letter is generally the way to done?
02:05:03 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: That's what I've seen and usually do, but it's also pretty subtle;
02:05:18 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:05:27 <fizzie> It was downtown Mountain View, which isn't all that Google.
02:06:05 <shachaf> fizzie: They used to have a, uh, place on Castro St.
02:06:10 <oerjan> `learn Harikari is the act of comitting suicide because you've mangled a word in an honor-destroying way.
02:06:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'harikari': Harikari is the act of comitting suicide because you've mangled a word in an honor-destroying way.
02:06:28 <hppavilion[1]> If I capitalize the first letter of one for no apparent reason in the middle of a sentence, then you might not even notice (you do fairly often, but not 100%- and it's much harder when it's just a Standalone name in an expression)
02:06:42 <hppavilion[1]> BUT IF I WRITE IN FULL CAPS, YOU'RE REALLY GOING TO NOTICE
02:07:05 <shachaf> If I drop one in the middle of a sentence, you'll probably notice.
02:07:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But less often if it's in a mathematical expression
02:07:43 <hppavilion[1]> theta(x)+Theta(y)+theta(z) could VERY easily be read as theta(x+y+z)
02:07:54 <shachaf> If You write like Shubshub, I'll almost certainly Notice.
02:08:21 <shachaf> That individual has A Very distinctive mode Of writing.
02:08:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh, theta is multiplicative function by the way for no reason)
02:08:43 <hppavilion[1]> (Other than that I didn't want to rewrite theta(x)+theta(y)+theta(z))
02:08:44 <shachaf> I'm not even managing to replicate it.
02:09:11 <shachaf> you weren't duly impressed by addition under atanh earlier imo
02:09:53 <shachaf> You should give it a name.
02:10:40 <shachaf> Very useful operation, I guess.
02:10:49 <shachaf> Actually it already has a name.
02:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What I was talking about earlier was a(+)b = 1/((1/a)+(1/b))
02:11:36 <shachaf> It's called parallel sum by this one person on Wikipedia.
02:13:48 <shachaf> There's a link to http://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IntellectualTrespassingBook.pdf
02:13:50 <hppavilion[1]> (If this is parallel sum, does that make + perpendicular sum?)
02:13:51 <oerjan> `slwd harikari//s/comi/commi/
02:13:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/harikari//Harikari is the act of committing suicide because you've mangled a word in an honor-destroying way.
02:15:10 <shachaf> It's called series sum on the page I linked to.
02:16:18 <oerjan> <shachaf> you weren't duly impressed by addition under atanh earlier imo <-- was he at least relatively impressed?
02:17:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I feel there's a pun there, but I don't see what...
02:17:33 <hppavilion[1]> Is there some part of math where 'due' and 'relative' are related concepts?
02:17:34 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: well, you're no einstein hth
02:17:41 <shachaf> hmm, that can come across as rude
02:18:05 <shachaf> coming up with a non-rude pun is left as an exercise
02:18:20 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It is weird that that could sound rude... the entire POINT of Einstein is that he's probably smarter than you
02:18:37 <HackEgo> 1243) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
02:18:45 <shachaf> The joke is: (a+b)/(1+1/ab) is how you add velocities in special relativity.
02:19:07 <shachaf> (Velocities from 0 to 1, where 1 is the speed of light.)
02:19:52 <shachaf> And also, (a+b)/(1+1/ab) = tanh(atanh(a) + atanh(b))
02:21:09 -!- oren has joined.
02:21:20 <shachaf> The old-fashioned way to add velocities is a+b.
02:21:47 <shachaf> Can you explain this analogy please:
02:22:05 <oren> I tried refreshing the UTF8.gz thing. didn't work. so now I'm compiling a costom tmux with my own char width fucntion
02:22:05 <oerjan> shachaf: i think you mangled the formula this time
02:24:09 -!- oren has quit (Client Quit).
02:24:09 <oerjan> > tanh(atanh 0.5 + atanh 0.5)
02:24:45 <oerjan> > (0.5 + 0.5)/(1 + 1/(0.5+0.5))
02:24:59 <oerjan> > (0.5 + 0.5)/(1 + 1/(0.5*0.5))
02:25:03 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp_space#The_p-norm_in_finite_dimensions hth
02:25:10 <oerjan> > (0.5 + 0.5)/(1 + (0.5*0.5))
02:25:25 <oerjan> shachaf: no nested division
02:25:26 -!- oren has joined.
02:25:36 <oren> now I'll try again
02:25:40 <lambdabot> (Num a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
02:25:47 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Fractional a) => a -> b -> a
02:26:14 <oren> `u8tbl 0x23f4 0x23fA
02:26:17 <shachaf> Of course I mean (a+b)/(1+ab)
02:26:45 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M352684250960...
02:26:45 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
02:26:57 <oren> now, i think this will work too? ⏴⏵⏶⏷⏸⏹⏺ horray!
02:27:05 <shachaf> You're using both ^^ and **
02:27:18 <lambdabot> .L.hs:164:1: warning: [-Woverlapping-patterns]
02:27:18 <lambdabot> In an equation for ‘gsum’: gsum g a b = ...
02:27:41 <lambdabot> • Could not deduce (Fractional b0) arising from a use of ‘gsum'’
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02:28:16 <oren> I replaced the call to wcwidth with a call to u8chrwid from http://orenwatson.be/u8.c.htm
02:28:39 <shachaf> In this one computer game, I have a bunch of things, and they generate resources.
02:28:49 <oren> which is a rough and ready character width estimation
02:28:52 <shachaf> Say I have thing X that generates 60% of my resources.
02:29:06 <shachaf> Now I make X twice as efficient. It doesn't generate 120% of my resources, of course.
02:29:20 <shachaf> It generates (0.6+0.6)/(1+0.6) of them.
02:30:18 <shachaf> So this seems kind of similar to the velocity addition thing, except that that would say, if you "double" your velocity from 0.6, you get (0.6+0.6)/(1+0.6*0.6)
02:30:43 <shachaf> Does the analogy work or not?
02:30:44 <oren> I should probably work on making it less rough and ready though
02:34:09 <oren> but seriously it is total shit that I had to put in such a havk just to get a stupid play an pause buttons to show up.
02:34:10 <shachaf> «For fractions, the series sum is the usual addition expressed by the annoyingly asymmetrical rule: "Find the common denominator and then add the numerators." The parallel sum of fractions restores symmetry since it is defined in the dual fashion: "Find the common numerator and then (series) add the denominators."»
02:34:45 <ais523> shachaf: if X generates proportion p of your resources, and you make X twice as efficient, it now generates (p+p)/(1+p) = 1/(1/(p+p)+p/(p+p)) = 1/(1/2p + 1/2) = 2p (+) 2 of your resources
02:35:05 <ais523> it's not immediately obvious how this generalizes
02:35:23 <shachaf> ais523: Well, I was trying to make an analogy to the velocity addition thing.
02:35:34 <ais523> I was expressing it in terms of that
02:35:37 <ais523> and it does look simpler
02:35:47 <ais523> but is also confusing as it's not clear why it has that form specifically
02:36:01 <shachaf> Wait, isn't that (+) parallel sum?
02:36:03 <ais523> ooh, let's do it like this
02:36:16 <ais523> let X become n times as efficient; and let q = (1-p)
02:36:27 <shachaf> How is that related to velocity addition?
02:36:27 <ais523> (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO)
02:36:47 <shachaf> `addquote <ais523> (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO)
02:36:56 <HackEgo> 1290) <ais523> (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO)
02:37:00 <HackEgo> 2016-10-11 <shachaf> addquote <ais523> (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO) \ 2016-10-09 <oerjan> sled quotes//82s/[[]/ [/ \ 2016-10-09 <oerjan> sled quotes//82s/ \\.\\.\\. /[...]/ \ 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-09-24 <oerjan> sled quotes//1289s/ // \ 2016-09-
02:37:40 <pikhq> shachaf: Not that you likely *care*, there is a workaround to make gifjs still work in the face of transforming proxies like that. Add a quick .setRequestHeader("Cache-Control", "no-transform") to your XMLHttpRequest.
02:38:27 <shachaf> I'm pretty far removed from that code, though.
02:38:39 <shachaf> Apparently Buzzfeed forked it and made it into a nice library or something.
02:38:51 <shachaf> Which is why it has all those stars on Github.
02:38:59 <shachaf> I didn't even find out about it until recently.
02:39:07 <ais523> X previously generated p/(p+q); now it generates np/(np+q) = np / (1 + (n-1)p) = 1/(1/np + (n-1)p/np) = np (+) np/(n-1)p = np (+) n/(n-1)
02:39:18 <pikhq> Maybe I'll just send them a patch if they care. :)
02:39:58 <pikhq> Though it's pretty possible they already did that.
02:39:59 <ais523> shachaf: what does "that code" refer to?
02:40:31 <shachaf> Also apparently between the time I wrote it (summer 2010) and the time I released it, someone else released another library with the same name.
02:40:39 <shachaf> That'll teach me to release any code.
02:41:08 <shachaf> ais523: OK, let me read what you said.
02:41:25 <ais523> shachaf: it doesn't really come out as neatly as I expected
02:41:28 <shachaf> I was trying to connect it to the velocity addition thing but I think it's unrelated.
02:41:31 <ais523> although it's still fairly neat
02:41:43 <ais523> right, I don't think there's a connection either, just a nice formula
02:41:47 <oren> can someone try to break my wcwidth code?
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02:42:01 <oren> like, find a character that breaks it
02:42:07 <ais523> I did enough maths when I was younger that I can appreciate a neat formula even if it doesn't solve my original problem
02:42:12 <ais523> oren: does it return -1 for backspace?
02:42:13 <shachaf> No, I think there probably is a connection.
02:42:30 <shachaf> But I was just saying that I'll appreciate your formula even if it isn't connected.
02:42:55 <oren> ais523: no. returns 0. but it doesn't seem to use wcwidth to handle backspace anyway
02:42:57 <shachaf> ais523: Were you here when I talked about volume time? It's also related.
02:43:14 <ais523> shachaf: no (or if I was, I wasn't paying attention)
02:43:35 <shachaf> There's this thing on stock exchanges called volume time, which measures time using volume instead of a clock.
02:43:59 <oren> I didn't actually look up what the specifications for wcwidth I just sort of pasted some old code of mine into tmux and compiled
02:44:01 <shachaf> Every time one person buys N things from someone else, the volume is increased by N.
02:44:08 <pikhq> shachaf: Welp, they definitely don't have the cache-control set like that. :)
02:44:14 <ais523> this is like valgrind measuring time by counting CPU instructions
02:44:20 <pikhq> Now do I care enough to hand 'em an issue...
02:44:30 <ais523> or massif measuring time in megabytes
02:44:32 <shachaf> There are a lot of things that work out nicely when you use volume time instead of clock time.
02:45:09 <shachaf> You can measure your trading speed in terms of volume time, e.g. "buy 10000 shares, and be 20% of the total volume"
02:45:25 <shachaf> Which means that over the next 50000 volume time, you want to have been 10000 of it.
02:45:38 <shachaf> It means you can treat things that trade frequently and infrequently in a similar way.
02:45:58 <shachaf> Anyway, 100% is the speed limit for trading, is the point.
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02:46:28 <shachaf> If you're 100% of the volume, you can't get your volume time speed, no matter how much faster you trade.
02:46:32 <ais523> this is like the reverse of the lightspeed limit
02:46:41 <ais523> if you go faster, time speeds up to compensate
02:47:01 <shachaf> The interesting thing there is that time and position are measured in the same units.
02:47:15 <shachaf> Which I guess is true for spacetime too.
02:47:46 <shachaf> So how does "velocity addition" work in this world?
02:48:17 <ais523> kind-of like relativity I think
02:48:38 <ais523> hmm, would be great if it were exactly like relativity
02:48:57 <ais523> in this world, things going at the speed of light go at the speed of light from any viewpoint, don't they?
02:49:13 <shachaf> Well, this global volume time ticker is kind of annoying.
02:49:37 <oren> basically, velocities don't add linearly
02:49:39 <shachaf> But I'm not sure what you mean by viewpoint.
02:49:39 <ais523> I was taught about relativity in school but can hardly remember the details at this point
02:50:01 <ais523> but however it's defined it doesn't seem capable of changing the speed of light, so maybe it doesn't matter
02:50:23 <oren> instead rapidities add linearly
02:50:43 <shachaf> It's also annoying that stocks and volume are discrete. But we can probably ignore that.
02:51:17 <ais523> stocks don't have any mathematical reason to be discrete
02:51:18 <oren> that is, if a bullet is shot at speed v forward on a train going at speed w,
02:51:22 <ais523> that's just the wayt he stock market is set up
02:51:43 <shachaf> Well, that's not quite true.
02:52:14 <shachaf> Prices also have a reason to be discrete, and there's a real trade-off between finer and coarser prices.
02:52:20 <oren> the speed of the bullet relative to the ground is c*tanh(arctanh(v/c)+arctanh(w/c))
02:52:24 <shachaf> (But that's not related to any of this, anyway.)
02:52:33 <ais523> what a share in a company gives you is: a) voting power on the company's decisions (typically only used to elect a board who handle the day-to-day decisions); b) a proportion of dividends
02:52:40 <ais523> neither of those have a reason to be discrete
02:53:02 <oren> ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapidity
02:53:48 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe shares don't need to be discrete.
02:54:05 <shachaf> At least the way markets work right now.
02:55:15 <ais523> now I've had a mental image of high frequency trading bots coming up with prices that are so precise they need to be expressed as computable rals
02:55:27 <ais523> and the stock market taking hours just to figure out what the price of the trade actually is
02:55:55 <pikhq> Why restrict prices to the computables? >:D
02:56:10 <shachaf> Well, figuring out prices is one of the main purposes of the stock market.
02:56:17 <shachaf> So I don't mind if it takes hours.
02:56:32 <shachaf> But it's so volatile anyway, the extra precision probably wouldn't get you much in most cases.
02:57:06 <ais523> pikhq: one big advantage of a computable real over an uncomputable real is that it's possible to communicate it to someone else
02:57:22 <ais523> having a price that you can't describe or name in any way is useless for actually making trades
02:57:49 <shachaf> Well, it could be describable but not computable.
02:57:50 <pikhq> Some people have no imagination
02:58:00 <oerjan> <ais523> (btw, "q = 1-p" should be the standard definition of q, IMO) <-- except in L^p theory you want 1/q = 1 - 1/p instead hth
02:58:27 <ais523> huh, I just realised that q and p are even mirror images in most fonts
02:58:27 <shachaf> oerjan: I was going to suggest q = 1/p
02:58:42 <ais523> (they aren't in my handwriting, which probably explains why I didn't notice this before)
02:59:07 <shachaf> how did you write those inverted d and b?
02:59:09 <ais523> (it's been a while since I did probability calculations using algebra, and back then I was mostly using paper rather than computers)
02:59:32 <ais523> there are websites you can use to turn your text upside-down
02:59:57 <ais523> it makes it so much easier to write
03:01:02 <shachaf> ais523: Anyway, this volume time thing seems more analogous to the resource thing I said before.
03:01:57 <shachaf> Say I'm buying at 60% of the volume. I double my buying speed. Now I'm (0.6 + 0.6)/(1 + 0.6) of the volume.
03:02:09 <shachaf> Or am I? I should figure out what I mean by double.
03:02:51 <ais523> ugh, now I'm reminded of the question of a plane on a treadmill
03:02:56 <shachaf> Maybe I mean I'm measuring everything in clock time.
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03:03:34 <ais523> the question is "if you place an aeroplane on a giant treadmill, and make the treadmill spin backwards to counteract the plane's motion and keep it steady in the x axis, can the plane take off?"
03:04:26 <shachaf> So if 60% participation is 60 shares/minute, that means other people are trading at 40 shares/minute. I "double" my speed by trading at 120 shares/minute, so that's 120/160 = 75%
03:04:42 <shachaf> This is the reason I brought up the resource thing in analogy to the speed of light in the first place.
03:05:25 <oerjan> <ais523> hmm, would be great if it were exactly like relativity <-- . o O ( what if this world is an emergent property of a stock exchange somewhere )
03:06:23 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, i get it, stackexchange.com is a pun on "stock exchange"
03:06:25 <ais523> oerjan: what do you think of the theory that there is only one electron in existence, but it's capable of time travel
03:06:27 <shachaf> I didn't realize until now.
03:06:52 <ais523> and manages to do the jobs of every electron in the universe via looping through time
03:06:52 <shachaf> ais523: What do you think of the theory that there's only one soul/consciousness in existence, but it moves between everyone's minds zillions of times a second?
03:07:16 <ais523> shachaf: I think it's very hard to disprove, and may not be well-defined
03:07:43 <shachaf> I think I read it in a book by Raymond Smullyan, where he maybe put it better than I did.
03:11:05 <oerjan> <shachaf> I didn't realize until now. <-- eek me neither
03:12:20 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Paulproteus/List_of_puns_that_took_Asheesh_more_than_a_year_to_get
03:12:20 <oerjan> ais523> oerjan: what do you think of the theory that there is only one electron in existence, but it's capable of time travel <-- i vaguely there was some argument against that idea.
03:15:09 <shachaf> Do you know Raymond Smullyan's secret to immortality?
03:15:27 <shachaf> 1. Always tell the truth. Never say something that isn't true.
03:15:41 <shachaf> 2. Say "I will repeat this sentence tomorrow".
03:21:24 <ais523> shachaf: 1. is probably impossible, it requires you to be accurate
03:21:40 <ais523> and if you were actually accurate, then 1 and 2 would likely contradict each other
03:22:01 <shachaf> Actually you could work around it by getting rid of the sun or something.
03:23:24 <ais523> stating you'll do something on a nonexistent day is a false statement, isn't it?
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03:34:49 <imode> something something closed world assumption.
03:35:19 <shachaf> ais523: Ah, http://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IntellectualTrespassingBook.pdf talks about this maybe.
03:35:31 <shachaf> "In high school algebra, parallel sums occur in the computation of completion times when activities are run in parallel. If pump A can fill a reservoir in a hours and pump B can fill the same reservoir in b hours, then running the two pumps simultaneously will fill the reservoir in a:b hours."
03:35:36 <shachaf> (Where : is parallel sum.)
03:38:09 <imode> damnit. I need to either handle only signed numbers or find two symbols to represent a signed comparison.
03:39:24 <ais523> imode: Verity uses +< and +> for signed less-than and signed greater-than
03:39:48 <imode> ais523: needs to be single-char.
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03:40:04 <imode> (just an artificial constraint I set.)
03:41:37 <oren> the plane on a treadmill can take off easily, because the wheels aren't pushing the plane
03:42:14 <ais523> imode: ≺ and ≻ perhaps? although those make more sense as unsigned with < and > as signed
03:42:26 <oren> that is, the plane doesn't push the treadmill at all, so the treadmill doen't move
03:42:55 <imode> doesn't display well on my terminal.
03:42:57 <ais523> imode: well there aren't many possibilities in ASCII!
03:43:05 <imode> damn this charset!
03:43:07 <ais523> they're \prec and \succ in LaTeX
03:43:09 <imode> and this keyboard.
03:43:23 <imode> need more symbols and less latin letters.
03:43:39 <oren> imode: try a better font
03:43:49 <ais523> in ASCII about the best you'll do is [ and ] I think
03:43:59 <imode> [ and ] are reserved for loops.
03:43:59 <ffj-bot> imode: | and ] are reserved for loops.
03:44:10 <oren> http://orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm <- like this one
03:45:05 <oren> it has almost every math symbol you can imagine
03:45:33 <oren> jsut having the font on your system is enough since characters not found in any other font witll use it
03:45:56 <oren> you could also use gnu unifont
03:45:58 <ais523> oerjan: that font probably wants to be a vector font rather than a pixel font
03:46:16 <oren> http://www.unifoundry.com/unifont.html
03:46:20 <imode> and, I'm good. the characters display and everything, it's just that they're a tiny bit aliased..
03:46:46 <ais523> (I haven't checked, but from the description, it looks like a pixel font)
03:47:08 <oren> it is a pixel font on purpose in order to prevent aliasing
03:47:17 <oren> because I hate cleartype
03:51:13 <oren> the things I have against gnu unifont that led me to make my own font are: I don;t like gnu unifont's style, gnu unifont doen't have accurate widths for its characters especially symbols, and its style differs from language to language
03:51:33 <imode> I just use Dina. 6pt font.
03:52:13 <oren> yeah I prefer a bigger font these days
03:54:01 <oren> alhough soon I might need glasses so maybe that's part of why
03:54:08 * pikhq isn't too fond of the style on that font either
03:54:50 <oren> pikhq: which one, gnu unifont, Dina, or neoletters?
03:55:10 <pikhq> Though unifont ain't exactly attractive either.
03:55:20 <pikhq> And at least neoletters is stylistically consistent.
03:59:26 <zzo38> I happen to prefer Fixed, although I would want a UTCE version of it (possibly in addition to the existing Unicode version)
04:03:16 <oren> The main problem I've had using gnu unifont wasn't the style though. it was that certain characters have the wrong width in the font, causing roguelikes that use unicode to look all messed up
04:07:19 <oren> ←↑→↓↔↕ for example were all shown as wide
04:09:13 <oren> I think they have now fixed that, but there are still hundreds of characters shown as wide that should be one space
04:10:39 <oren> such as ➊➋➌➍➎➏➐➑➒➓
04:33:39 <pikhq> Weird, they're not following the Unicode width table?
04:34:35 <pikhq> That's just bizarre.
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05:00:52 <oren> ok it turned out my crappy wcwidth was too crappy
05:01:19 <oren> and caused a crash somehow
05:01:45 <oren> so I copied this one, which seems to work better http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/wcwidth.c
05:03:21 <pikhq> oren: Is that up-to-date though? IIRC some of the blocks which had characters added later than 5.0 have a width of 2, not 1.
05:03:46 <oren> hmm, I'll have to fix it up then!
05:04:23 <zzo38> I invented UTCE in order to avoid those problems with the width
05:04:34 <oren> although,the supplementary ideographic plane is all just blocked out as width two in that function
05:04:50 <pikhq> Yup, it's missing 1 block I know of: the Miscellaneous Symbols and Pictographs block has a width of 2.
05:05:16 <pikhq> (which is not in the ideographic plane)
05:06:35 <oren> ok, I'll figure thta out too
05:06:57 <pikhq> Should be simple enough to fix though.
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06:52:45 <imode> :( c2.com is still down... that wiki was awesome.
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09:02:41 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently the person Trump is talking to on that tape is Billy Bush
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09:40:19 <b_jonas> Someone just contributed a brilliant simpler proof for the chameleon game problem.
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09:59:11 <int-e> that was three months ago...
09:59:42 <int-e> b_jonas: ...care to share the link again?
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10:06:51 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't have a link to the logs, because I don't remember when exactly it was
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10:06:59 <b_jonas> I don't have a copy of the logs
10:07:09 <b_jonas> wait, can HackEgo search the archives?
10:10:01 <myname> https://twitter.com/lachlan/status/785595392385687552
10:12:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi
10:12:27 <b_jonas> `` /bin/ls /var/irclogs/_esoteric
10:12:28 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric: No such file or directory
10:13:14 <b_jonas> does HackEgo have the logs now?
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10:40:27 <int-e> no, HackEgo *had* the logs in the past
10:40:49 <int-e> b_jonas: so where did this contribution happen then
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11:00:43 <b_jonas> int-e: http://www.komal.hu/forum/forum.cgi?a=to&tid=309&st=25&dr=1 , post [19] and [21]
11:01:31 <b_jonas> http://www.komal.hu/forum/forum.cgi?a=to&tid=309&st=25&dr=1#28505
11:01:47 <b_jonas> I totally assumed there were no anchors earlier!
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11:39:34 <izalove> according to linkedin one of the people i may know is "Gmane Authorizer"
11:43:28 <boily> izellove. what's a gmane authorizer?
11:47:07 <izalove> the thing you use to authorize your gmanes
11:50:40 <izalove> what else would you use it for?
11:56:17 <b_jonas> so I'm trying to make something take less disk space by deleting unnecessary files from it, and as a temporary state during this, I'm about to have almost six copies of the whole damn thing on my hard disk
12:13:35 <b_jonas> btw, https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2016/10/07/kosterlitz-thouless-transition/ can be worth a read
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13:14:14 <b_jonas> I've just been bitten by escaping rules.
13:17:19 <Taneb> What were the rules escaping from
13:20:41 <b_jonas> Taneb: perl regex inside windows cmd shell
13:21:12 <b_jonas> I put the regex command-line argument in quotes, and wanted to match a literal backslash as the last character
13:21:23 <ais523> b_jonas: cmd's escaping rules are outright bizarre
13:21:39 <ais523> you could probably make the Perl oneliner prompt for the regex interactively
13:21:43 <ais523> to avoid having to escape it at all
13:21:47 <b_jonas> the reasonable thing to write would have been "foobar\x5c" or "foobar\\(?:)" but I wrote "foobar\\" and that's wrong and produces a strange error message
13:22:40 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, they're bizarre and hard to use. I had to learn about them for some script I made, but that doesn't mean I have it as a finger reflex to know how many backspaces to type
13:23:02 <b_jonas> let me tell the story of that
13:24:10 <b_jonas> I have some batch files that are thin wrappers around a program, just invoking it and passing all the command-line arguments, possibly prefixing or suffixing some more command-line arguments
13:24:58 <b_jonas> Those are easy to write, you just have to put @"C:\Program Files\Some Path\someprogram.exe" %* into the batch file
13:25:40 <b_jonas> It _mostly_ works. Only mostly, because when you invoke it then interrupt the program with control-c, you need an additional control-c or something like that to exit.
13:25:56 <b_jonas> But there are at least two hard cases.
13:26:30 <b_jonas> Namely, I want a wrapper around a program such that it sets some environment variables, but only for running that program, not for the rest of the shell session.
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13:26:58 <b_jonas> I absolutely can't figure out how to do that in pure cmd. I tried experiments with CALL and SET and stuff, but nothing worked.
13:27:47 <b_jonas> So I wrote a batch file with a very ugly perl script that sets an environment variable and then calls another program
13:28:11 <b_jonas> But the easiest way to spawn a program from perl involves going through the shell (you'd need some windows-specific module otherwise, and that might be worth investigating),
13:28:24 <b_jonas> so I made the perl script try to quote the parameters of the program for the shell.
13:28:29 <b_jonas> That mostly works. Only mostyl.
13:28:43 <b_jonas> It can fail if the command-line parameters are strange or if the program handles them in a strange way,
13:29:07 <ais523> b_jonas: have you seen the command line quoting argument on CPAN?
13:29:09 <b_jonas> but it works when there's only a couple of double quotes, backslashes, carets and ampersands and pipes and angle brackets involved.
13:29:11 <ais523> the way it handles Windows is very weird
13:29:28 <ais523> AFAICT the Windows escaping rules for a string depend on the content of the string
13:29:38 <b_jonas> Here's an example of such a script:
13:29:44 <b_jonas> @"C:\Perl64\bin\perl.exe" -M-lib=. -e "use 5.016; $ENV{PATH} = qq(C:\x5cWin-builds\x5cbin;$ENV{PATH}); say my$c = qq(\x22) . join(qq(\x22 \x22), map s/(\x5c*(\x22|\z))/\Q$1/gr, qw(g++ -march=core2 -mavx -Wall -O), @ARGV) . qq(\x22); exit system $c;" -- %*
13:29:48 <ais523> so it has to add a few useless characters which cancel each other out in order to force a particular escaping method
13:30:03 <ais523> lambdabot doesn't know Perl?
13:30:24 <ais523> `perl-e print sub { $_[0] + 1};
13:30:49 <b_jonas> ais523: it knows perl. it just doesn't have the particular g++ executable for which that works.
13:31:08 <b_jonas> it can't find the g++ command
13:31:47 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what happens if any command-line argument contains percent signs or newlines by the way
13:34:19 <b_jonas> ais523: the problem with windows shell quoting is that it's sort of rigid. contents of double-quoted strings must be escaped by putting excatly the backslashes that regex puts in them. if you try to put any other backslash escape, you end up with the wrong result.
13:34:46 <b_jonas> if you allow exitting the double quote, then there might be more ways
13:35:21 <b_jonas> also, I have no fucking idea how percent escapes work, or if they work at all
13:35:30 <b_jonas> their syntax seems completely random
13:35:40 <b_jonas> so if your command has percent signs, you're probably screwed
13:35:46 <b_jonas> and many commands I type do have percent signs
13:36:00 <b_jonas> I have absolutely no idea how to escape them properly
13:36:54 <ais523> doesn't cmd have caret escapes too?
13:37:17 <b_jonas> I don't know how cmd works, and I probably shouldn't even do this stuff
13:37:40 <b_jonas> I should use a perl module that lets me execute a program on windows without using the shell, or some other solution
13:37:45 <b_jonas> rather than trying to beat cmd into submission
13:38:14 <b_jonas> Or if a perl module is not convenient, just write something new in C++ using the windows api or whatever.
13:38:39 <b_jonas> I put that batch file stuff down when it started to more or less work
13:39:02 <b_jonas> I'm sure it escapes backslashes and double quotes properly, but there are more problems with batch file stuff than that.
13:51:54 <BooK> system and exec in Perl behave differently when handed a single argument
13:53:06 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
13:53:07 <BooK> `perldoc -f exec` and `perldoc -f system` have more details
13:53:08 <HackEgo> You need to install the perl-doc package to use this program.
13:53:18 <BooK> perl's useless without its docs
13:53:25 <Jafet> presumably powershell has less esoteric quoting rules
13:53:42 <BooK> it's only a few hundred man pages, last time I counted :-)
13:54:32 <Jafet> perldoc is probably larger than some fungot corpora
13:54:33 <fungot> Jafet: not sure exactly what you want? perl exists already, and there are
13:59:26 <ais523> <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
13:59:30 <ais523> ^ b_jonas asked me to repost that here
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13:59:41 <b_jonas> `addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
13:59:43 <HackEgo> 1291) ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
13:59:49 <b_jonas> is that how I use addquote?
13:59:53 <HackEgo> 24) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? \ 69) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 77) <ais523> (still, w
13:59:59 <ais523> no, you have to format it properly
14:00:03 <HackEgo> *poof* ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
14:00:07 <HackEgo> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
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14:00:21 <b_jonas> `addquote <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
14:00:23 <HackEgo> 1291) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
14:00:29 <HackEgo> 1291) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
14:00:35 <HackEgo> 24) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? \ 69) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 77) <ais523> (still, w
14:00:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: countquote: not found
14:00:39 <ais523> I have a lot of skills; some are more useful than others
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14:08:16 <ais523> so I just stumbled across the standard ISO 16
14:08:52 <ais523> it is one page long, and not publicly available, although you can purchase it for 38 swiss francs; it does not seem to be available in other currencies
14:09:02 <ais523> it defines the A above middle C as being 440 Hz
14:09:31 <b_jonas> what's the date for that standard?
14:09:47 <Jafet> below middle C, hopefully
14:10:39 <b_jonas> ais523: does that standard also define a particular tuning scale for pianos?
14:10:56 <Jafet> I don't think you could fit that into one page
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14:11:28 <ais523> b_jonas: I can't tell from the publicly available information, but it seems very unlikely
14:11:50 <b_jonas> "Jan 1 1975" -- hehe, suddenly I imagine musicians suddenly retuning their instruments at the end of a New Year concert when the clock chimes midnight and the standard goes into effect
14:12:22 <Jafet> I doubt many performers strive to be ISO 16 compliant
14:13:14 <b_jonas> Obviously that wouldn't happen. The M:tG rules changes always specifically state that the modified rules are applied to contests that start after the time when the modification goes to effect. Similarly, a tuning standard would only apply to a whole concert, not change between.
14:13:25 <b_jonas> Still, it was a funny image.
14:13:43 <ais523> couldn't they just re-tune their instruments at midnight?
14:13:59 <ais523> oh, that's what you said
14:14:03 <ais523> I misread it as "returning"
14:14:07 <ais523> because it's a much more common word
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14:24:45 <Jafet> note that piano (and harp?) strings are not tuned to the ideal frequencies: http://physics.stackexchange.com/a/268635
14:30:01 <Taneb> They use 2/3 somewhere where they shouldn't, right?
14:31:16 <ais523> Jafet: combinations like, say, F sharp and G flat are not identical on a harp
14:31:30 <ais523> they have different inputs
14:32:01 <ais523> the way harps work is that they have seven strings per octave which can each be set to natural, flat, or sharp
14:32:01 <ais523> (C flat is not the same as B, although they're very close)
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16:29:34 <oerjan> <imode> :( c2.com is still down... that wiki was awesome. <-- aw. not just that, it's the _first_ wiki.
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16:49:48 <int-e> hmmm. "An error occurred processing your request. The host is currently unavailable. Please try again later"
16:50:16 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Someone just contributed a brilliant simpler proof for the chameleon game problem. <-- which problem? the one with 3 colors i'm finding is already trivial with modulo arithmetic... or is that a new proof?
16:54:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, a different chameleon problem
16:55:05 <oren> I'm glad I solved that unicode problem in my tmux
16:55:09 <b_jonas> the 3 color one is very old, the one I'm talking about is newer and has more colors
16:56:58 <oren> now I can have ☕ in the ☔ and watch the ☄ when the ★s come out
16:57:07 * oerjan maybe should read the rest of the logs before complaining
16:57:22 <oren> without having some of those characters be missing
16:57:33 <oerjan> oren: yay i can read two of those!
16:58:16 <HackEgo> [U+2615 HOT BEVERAGE] [U+2614 UMBRELLA WITH RAIN DROPS] [U+2604 COMET] [U+2605 BLACK STAR]
16:58:51 <oren> I heard there was a shooting star the other day over toronto
16:59:44 <oerjan> i think i saw a shooting star the other night.
17:00:25 <oerjan> assuming they look like small lights flashing quickly over the sky
17:01:20 * oerjan briefly googled to see if he was missing a song reference but found nothing
17:01:30 <oren> no song reference
17:07:22 <oren> Of course, the main problem was with ⏩⏪⏫⏬⏭⏮⏯⏴⏵⏶⏷⏸⏹⏺ whcih for some reason are still a little glitchy.
17:08:12 <b_jonas> are you thinner by some backslashes?
17:08:52 <oren> yeah I had to restart my irssi so I could restart tmux
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17:10:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's the problem, it's somewhere in the logs months back from now, but I don't know where
17:10:23 <b_jonas> I don't have a cpoy of the logs, and nor does HackEgo, so I can't search
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17:16:23 <oerjan> and tunes.org excludes web spiders :(
17:17:06 <oerjan> while codu hasn't updated for months.
17:19:04 <oerjan> fizzie seems idle, but i believe he keeps comprehensive private logs
17:21:52 <\oren\> how much loging could he posibly be doing?
17:21:56 <oerjan> fizzie: can you search your logs for the date b_jonas discussed the chameleon problem?
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17:22:16 <oerjan> \oren\: well all of #esoteric, since he idles here...
17:22:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: if it was really important, I could crawl the logs too, but I don't feel like it's important now
17:22:45 <b_jonas> heaven knows, I've downloaded larger irc logs for stuff like this (years of #haskell logs once)
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17:27:44 <oerjan> jeffl35: your bot seems a bit fishy.
17:28:27 <fungot> \oren\: what's the macro?'
17:28:59 <oerjan> fungot knows all, but can only describe it confusingly.
17:29:00 <fungot> oerjan: where are those made? trying to find procedures in scheme that would make valid brainfuck code from a forth compiler
17:29:01 <\oren\> fungot: the macro is #define if if(0)if
17:29:01 <fungot> \oren\: and threads is bad?"
17:29:36 <oerjan> fungot: you seem unusually succinct today
17:29:36 <fungot> oerjan: i'm not opposing object-oriented thinking as such
17:31:18 <fizzie> oerjan: 2016-07-11 in my time zone.
17:32:32 <oerjan> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.07.11
17:32:38 <b_jonas> #define if if(0)if // now that's evil
17:43:23 <\oren\> #define if if(rand()&1)if
17:44:02 <oerjan> b_jonas: is the expected number of steps independent of strategy regardless of star... oh, it'll have to be.
17:44:44 <oerjan> because otherwise you could change the expectation for the usual starting position by adjusting when you get to the other position
17:45:27 <oerjan> so it's a function of current state.
17:48:01 <oerjan> (my idea here is that by assuming the conclusion, we can find the function explicitly, and then use it to prove the conclusion.)
17:48:19 <int-e> hmm, the lambdabot vps actually crashed, 40 minutes uptime now.
17:48:51 <int-e> but I'm happy that it came back by itself :)
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18:15:21 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, for any starting position the expected number of remaining steps is independent of the strategy
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18:51:42 <int-e> wouldn't if(1){}else if be better than if(0)if?
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18:55:39 <myname> int-e: that wouldn't mess up elses, would it?
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19:00:45 <alercah> I made it to mornington crescent! \o/
19:00:55 <HackEgo> logical induction? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:01:15 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/?? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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20:13:19 <izalove> what's an example of a program that reads input and processes it and prints something out?
20:13:27 <izalove> it must be simple to write
20:13:39 <izalove> but not too trivial so the compiler can't just optimize the whole thing away to a cat program
20:14:22 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a proper name for f(a, b) = 1-(1-a)*(1-b), where 0 ≤ a, b ≤ 1 ?
20:18:11 <\oren\> `` rainbow <<<"this is rainbow"
20:18:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/rainbow
20:19:11 <shachaf> It's the probability of either of two things happening.
20:19:16 <\oren\> it's written in C anyway
20:19:17 <shachaf> Well, independent things, I guess?
20:19:29 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....d@.....@.......°..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À................. ...........@......@............................................@.......@.....4......4........ ............8......8`.....8`.....H......X........ ...........P......P`.....P`.....à.......à.............. ..
20:19:47 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access tmp/orenbow.c: No such file or directory
20:19:58 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access tmp/pikhqbow.c: No such file or directory
20:20:11 <pikhq> Alas. It's probably in the logs somewhere, but I'unno.
20:20:42 <izalove> is it just printing ^C and a random color before each letter?
20:20:50 <HackEgo> ./bin/pikhqbow \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/pikhqbow.i \ ./.hg/store/data/src/pikhqbow.c.i \ ./src/pikhqbow.c
20:21:01 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ #include <wchar.h> \ #include <locale.h> \ int main(){wint_t c;int a=0;setlocale(LC_ALL,"C.UTF-8");b:c=fgetwc(stdin);if(c==EOF) return 0;printf("\x03%d%lc%s",(int[]){4,8,9,11,12,13}[a],c,c==L','?"\x0f":"",c);if(++a==6)a=0;goto b;}
20:21:26 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ int main(){printf("\e[1m");int a,c=0;b:a=getchar();if(a==EOF)return 0;if(!(a&128)||(a&64))printf("\e[%dm","\37! $\"#"[c]),c=c+1-6*(c>4);putchar(a);goto b;}
20:21:42 <\oren\> mine was shorter but crazier
20:22:04 <pikhq> Yes, most IRC clients accept both mIRC and ANSI color escapes.
20:22:18 <izalove> i thought the server stripped terminal escapes
20:22:40 <pikhq> No, they're treated as equally valid to mIRC color escapes.
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21:00:26 <\oren\> [91mtest two[1m will it work?
21:00:55 <\oren\> [91m testing testing 1 2 3
21:01:30 <\oren\> seems the basic ansi escapes only work, the 9x and 10x colors don't
21:01:51 <ybden> my terminal has flashing elfs
21:02:36 <\oren\> [31;1mbut I think this will work
21:05:29 <ybden> I think you get those at an ^Optician
21:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> I've translated Tie-Dye into Deutsch: Zim Farbstoff
21:06:22 <hppavilion[1]> (But I did it by interpreting Tie as 'TIE'- as in Star wars- expanded it into "Twin Ion Engine", translated each word, taking the first letters, forming an acronym, and putting it before German for "Dye")
21:12:34 <\oren\> ok, done with that crap
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21:22:46 <\oren\> It seems that GNU unifont never actually had width correctness as a goal
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21:23:55 <\oren\> they intended to have each character take up 8 x 16 or 16 x 16 pixels, but never had an intent to make the widths correct outside of the typical repertory used in terminal applicatiobs
21:25:57 <\oren\> I see some bugs and discussions about particular characters where someone complained that the width was wrong and they fixed it, but no intent to have the problem completely eliminated
21:26:50 <hppavilion[1]> Nearly all natural languages have words for color, but do any have words for discussing gradients in an elegant, uniform way?
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21:28:36 <pikhq> \oren\: Well that's just braindamaged.
21:28:40 <pikhq> Well, for terminal use, at least.
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21:29:31 * Zarutian does not like proportional font that make 1 I | and l indisguishable
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21:31:18 <hppavilion[1]> Limit average of a function: avg_(s -> e) f(x) = lim_(k -> 0) amean({f(x) : x \in [s, e], k | x})
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21:33:17 <\oren\> pikhq: yeah, I'm trying to figure out who to email to tell them how brain damaged it is
21:35:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:36:55 <\oren\> hmm, I guess I can try the mailing list unifont at gnu org?
21:37:08 -!- Froo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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21:38:48 <pikhq> "So who do you envision using your terminal-incompatible fixed width font?"
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21:46:42 <\oren\> Hopefully, I can anger them enough that they will fix the problem
21:47:44 <\oren\> "If this is the intended behaviour, who do you envision using your terminal-incompatible fixed width font?"
21:48:12 <\oren\> "I ask because from the look of things, many, many characters have been drawn in full width 16 x 16 pixels, when they have narrow wcwidth, and terminals display them in one 8 x 16 character space. This leads to an unacceptable appearance, with characters either overlapping, (in xterm and similar terminals) or being squashed horizontally (in PIEtty)."
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22:00:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric programming language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49929&oldid=47084 * Dlosc * (+0) Fixed GolfScript link
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22:27:40 * Zarutian duly issues an death certificate.
22:43:28 <\oren\> yeah I still don't knwo whose ass I have to kick to get the people behind unifont to take notice
22:45:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49930&oldid=49720 * Nthern * (-2253) Removed BCL
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23:20:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Furozo * New user account
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23:27:33 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA. i have the paper thing to go fetch the thing at the place to fetch things. tomorrow night it will be fetched.
23:29:12 <oerjan> boily: darn this destroys my theory that you and quintopia are living in different realities only connected via internet
23:29:20 <shachaf> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:29:27 <oerjan> (which, admittedly, i just made up.)
23:29:59 <oerjan> `` welcome shachaf | zalgo | rainwords
23:30:02 <HackEgo> s̀ͥh̢̀a̡̙c̨̚h̡ͣä̦f͇̙:̓ͧ ̸͌W̸͞e̫̦l̵͈c̩̰o͍҉m͙͋e͈͈ ̴͑t̓̄o̘͔ ̣̆t͕̟hͮͨe̷̢ ͤ͝i̞̹n͖͑t͑͜ḛ͇r̄̒ń̜å͞t̓͝i̔͡ơ̮nͯͣa̸̧l̪̓ ͏ͤh̅͞u̒̚b̔ͨ ̸̜f̙̿ȏ͔rͧ͟ ͇̾è̗s̄̊o͉̔t͙̆ȩ͕r̷͔ì̭c͐͘ ̜҉p̘͠r̛̙o͊͑g͋̄r̻ͣá͜m̍̿m̩͆įͣ
23:30:22 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:30:25 <oerjan> that was maybe a little too much to hope for
23:30:45 <\oren\> `` orenbow <<<"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
23:30:47 <HackEgo> [1m[31mA[33mA[32mA[36mA[34mA[35mA[31mA[33mA[32mA[36mA[34mA[35mA[31mA[33mA[32mA[36mA[34mA[35mA[31mA[33mA[32mA[36mA[34mA[35mA[31mA[33mA[32m
23:31:02 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2016-07-05 <\oren\> ` gcc src/orenbow.c -o bin/orenbow \ 2016-07-05 <pikhq> ` gcc src/orenbow.c -Os -s -o bin/orenbow \ 2016-07-05 <pikhq> ` gcc src/orenbow.c -Os -g -o bin/orenbow \ 2016-07-05 <pikhq> ` gcc src/orenbow.c -Os
23:31:24 <oerjan> `rainbow AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:31:25 <HackEgo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:31:39 <oerjan> \oren\: you seem redundant tdnh
23:32:05 <\oren\> oerjan: well they differ
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23:32:19 <\oren\> the rainbow command does
23:32:29 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ #include <wchar.h> \ #include <locale.h> \ int main(){wint_t c;int a=0;setlocale(LC_ALL,"C.UTF-8");b:c=fgetwc(stdin);if(c==EOF) return 0;printf("\x03%d%lc%s",(int[]){4,8,9,11,12,13}[a],c,c==L','?"\x0f":"",c);if(++a==6)a=0;goto b;}
23:32:36 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ int main(){printf("\e[1m");int a,c=0;b:a=getchar();if(a==EOF)return 0;if(!(a&128)||(a&64))printf("\e[%dm","\37! $\"#"[c]),c=c+1-6*(c>4);putchar(a);goto b;}
23:32:56 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | pikhqbow
23:33:02 <boily> he\\oren\. don't panic, this is #esoteric. the worse that can happen to you is an unshackled fungot bent on sentiencing you.
23:33:02 <fungot> boily: not that the code it's connected to all of this... if i had to write a
23:33:26 <boily> oerjan: we're also postally connected hth
23:33:38 <oerjan> \oren\: they seemed to give identical output on that input, anyway.
23:33:55 <shachaf> oerjan: except you missed one A hth
23:34:00 <\oren\> oerjan: the output differs invisibly
23:34:14 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think it would be worth to put a selection of the hangul characters in a new section in the main demo page of your font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm ,
23:34:20 <oerjan> hm let's check for unicode
23:34:28 <shachaf> if a program strips off irc colors from a message, would it be called rainstern?
23:34:35 <oerjan> `rainbow hallå i'm ørjan
23:34:54 <oerjan> `` orenbow <<<'hallå i'm ørjan'
23:34:55 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
23:35:04 <\oren\> you need to use "" hth
23:35:04 <oerjan> `` orenbow <<<"hallå i'm ørjan"
23:35:05 <HackEgo> [1m[31mh[33ma[32ml[36ml[34må[35m [31mi[33m'[32mm[36m [34mø[35mr[31mj[33ma[32mn[36m
23:35:18 <oerjan> still no visible difference
23:35:22 <wob_jonas> specifically for each of initial, medial, final, and for each size the jamo in that place can have in your font, choose a nice representative of the rest of the character that results in that size, and put a sequence of hangul where you change that part to all values and keep the rest fixed.
23:35:55 <wob_jonas> that would demonstrate how hangul look in your font in a similar way the sequences of all characters demonstrates it for other scripts, but without showing too many characters.
23:36:12 <oerjan> `` mv bin/orenbow{,.raw}; mkx 'bin/orenbow//print_args_or_input "$@" | orenbow'
23:36:30 <wob_jonas> \oren\: does what I said make sense/
23:36:37 <oerjan> `sled bin/orenbow//s/$/.raw/
23:36:39 <HackEgo> bin/orenbow//print_args_or_input "$@" | orenbow.raw
23:36:41 <\oren\> wob_jonas: yeah I can do that
23:36:54 <oerjan> `orenbow hallå i'm ørjan
23:36:55 <HackEgo> [1m[31mh[33ma[32ml[36ml[34må[35m [31mi[33m'[32mm[36m [34mø[35mr[31mj[33ma[32mn[36m
23:37:20 <wob_jonas> (I'm still sort of proud of that font because of the early feedback I gave, and admire it for the large amount of characters it has.)
23:37:22 <oerjan> there's a way of doing that inline but it only works for scripts.
23:37:40 <\oren\> `` orenbow AAAAA >tmp/aaaaa
23:38:04 <\oren\> `` rainbow AAAAA | diff - tmp/aaaaa
23:38:06 <HackEgo> 1c1 \ < AAAAA \ --- \ > [1m[31mA[33mA[32mA[36mA[34mA[35m
23:38:25 <\oren\> `` orenbow AAAAA >tmp/aaaaa; rainbow AAAAA | diff - tmp/aaaaa
23:38:26 <HackEgo> 1c1 \ < AAAAA \ --- \ > [1m[31mA[33mA[32mA[36mA[34mA[35m
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23:38:46 <shachaf> why are you polluting tmp/ tdnh
23:39:08 <shachaf> Not everything is about you.
23:39:18 <shachaf> But that PDF talking about parallel sum was pretty good.
23:39:19 <\oren\> shachaf: tmp hgets deleteted after every qery anywa
23:39:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I was polluting tmp/ the other day and I thought you might have noticed
23:39:33 <shachaf> /tmp does. tmp/ doesn't, which is the point of tmp/.
23:39:51 <\oren\> shachaf: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
23:39:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, I was putting things in tmp/ the other day, at least)
23:39:59 <oerjan> <shachaf> if a program strips off irc colors from a message, would it be called rainstern?
23:40:10 <HackEgo> 1padfile \ ${$1}padfile \ aaaaa \ args \ at \ foo \ fruit \ linetest \ sh \ spline \ spout \ tempcmd \ testcmd \ tmp_jonas \ wdiff \ wegians
23:40:23 <oerjan> thanks, i was wondering what the word for a ship's front was the other day
23:40:39 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ship_directions
23:40:45 <HackEgo> 0000000 032003 001501 005070 \ 0000006
23:40:51 <HackEgo> 0000000 003 4 A 003 8 \n \ 0000006
23:40:57 <HackEgo> 0000000 033 [ 1 m 033 [ 3 1 m A 033 [ 3 3 m \n \ 0000020
23:41:06 <shachaf> oerjan: seems that ships naturally live in 20-dimensional space hth
23:41:50 <\oren\> `` orenbow AAAAA | od -c
23:41:50 <HackEgo> 0000000 033 [ 1 m 033 [ 3 1 m A 033 [ 3 3 m A \ 0000020 033 [ 3 2 m A 033 [ 3 6 m A 033 [ 3 4 \ 0000040 m A 033 [ 3 5 m \n \ 0000050
23:41:56 <\oren\> `` rainbow AAAAA | od -c
23:41:57 <HackEgo> 0000000 003 4 A 003 8 A 003 9 A 003 1 1 A 003 1 2 \ 0000020 A 003 1 3 \n \ 0000025
23:42:04 <hppavilion[1]> List of ship directions: {slash, lesbian, het, threesome}, {competitive, romance, tragic, impossible}
23:42:16 <shachaf> bow (or stem): front of a ship (opposite of "stern")[1]
23:42:31 <shachaf> Are "stern" and "stem" really opposites?
23:42:38 <\oren\> bow, port, stern, starboard
23:42:38 <boily> stem and stern is just begging for serious keming problems.
23:42:50 <boily> front, back, writing hand, other hand.
23:42:52 <shachaf> boily: keming being the opposite of kerning
23:44:07 <wob_jonas> boily: yes, and "starboard" is called like that because "board" and "port" sounds too similar so they added a random syllable to one of them
23:44:25 <shachaf> Did you learn about parallel sum yet?
23:44:43 <hppavilion[1]> (The joke, for the Unicode challenged, is that the 'r' has a combining dot above to look vaguely like an 'ir')
23:44:57 <shachaf> You parallel-add fractions by adding the denominators after establishing a common numerator.
23:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> (It doesn't do it very well, but it was the only kerning joke I could find in the word 'Pirates')
23:45:19 <wob_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is that really a combining dot, rather than a precomposed character? I can't see the difference from sight.
23:45:53 <boily> wob_jonas: really?
23:45:55 <shachaf> : is parallel sum. a:b = 1/(1/a + 1/b)
23:46:00 <\oren\> https://i.reddituploads.com/5bd3f1bf2f094941ba73d76063331293?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=f20f29280bc95eba374db96d96762c82
23:46:08 <hppavilion[1]> I feel I should make a quick fraction-reducer (etc) program
23:46:19 <\oren\> HAM DECLARES STATE OF EMERGENCY
23:46:23 <hppavilion[1]> That allows you to find gcds, lcms, reduce fractions, etc.
23:46:33 <wob_jonas> boily: well, it would show up as a precomposed character if such is in the font regardless of how you encode it. I could examine the bytes that went through irc, but I'm lazy.
23:48:23 <wob_jonas> but even if there's no precomposed character in this font (which is quite possible, r with a dot is one of those practically nonexistant characters that's added to unicode for some rarely written african languages or rarely used transcription modes of asian languages), I wouldn't be able to tell from sight whether it's a precomposed glyph in the fo
23:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Wait, do you parallel-add the denominators after finding a common numerator or just normal-add?
23:50:05 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Probably because they're identical in most fonts
23:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure that combining diacritics can be automatically placed by default, but that common ones can be overridden to use a more aesthetically-pleasing one (which will usually be identical to a builtin one)
23:51:17 <shachaf> I don't know, look at the PDF.
23:52:23 <shachaf> "In high school algebra, parallel sums occur in the computation of completion times when activities are run in parallel. If pump A can fill a reservoir in a hours and pump B can fill the same reservoir in b hours, then running the two pumps simultaneously will fill the reservoir in a:b hours."
23:52:54 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: OK, what PDF? I only see one PDF- or any link at all- from you in my scrollback, and it definitely isn't the one you're reading
23:54:22 <shachaf> http://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/IntellectualTrespassingBook.pdf
23:54:45 <hppavilion[1]> That's the one I found, and it didn't really look like it was what you found
23:55:59 <shachaf> But you can use the search functionality of your PDF reader.
23:56:15 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Are there any easy-to-teach by-hand algorithms for harmonic sum? Like the write-the-numbers, add-columns, carry method for (serial) sum )
23:56:42 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, my younger sister was apparently never taught long division. They wanted her to use it for school and she had no clue what they meant.
23:56:57 <shachaf> What you should do is invent a way to construct the rationals or something that uses parallel sum instead of regular sum.
23:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> (Unless #esoteric has a strategy that is just OBJECTIVELY better)
23:57:16 <shachaf> Well, the trouble is, you can't define parallel sum on the integers.
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23:57:30 <shachaf> So you have to start with an algebraic structure of some sort that has parallel sum defined.
23:57:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: You mean like Peano arithmetic, but with parallel/harmonic successor (which is presumably equal to x(+)1)
23:58:14 <shachaf> Anyway, the other issue is that parallel sum doesn't have an identity.
23:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Not Peano, but similar, with the successor function
23:58:20 <shachaf> Or rather that its identity is infinity.
23:58:50 <shachaf> But you can extend the positive reals with 0 on one side and infinity on the other side, as outlined in that PDF.
23:58:57 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe you'd just have to define infinity with "There's a value called infinity because fuck you that's why")
23:58:59 <shachaf> And it more or less works, very symmetrical and all.
23:59:11 <shachaf> But 0 * infinity is undefined.
23:59:19 <shachaf> (But division by zero is fine.)
00:02:03 <shachaf> Anyway, there are algebraic structures that involve adding an infinity element. You can extend the reals with +infinity and then get a min/plus ring.
00:03:41 <shachaf> It's the case that 1/(a+b) = 1/a : 1/b
00:03:51 <shachaf> And also 1/(a:b) = 1/a + 1/b
00:04:04 <shachaf> But you have to figure out how to define : first.
00:04:23 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, but I need a primitive operation like S(x) = x+1
00:05:33 <shachaf> I don't know why you want a successor in particular, but sure.
00:06:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, point of order, ⊕ is a much nicer symbol for this than either a:b or a||b)
00:06:52 <shachaf> @let a ? b = 1/(1/a + 1/b)
00:07:07 <shachaf> It's a symbol that already means something.
00:07:39 <shachaf> Right, you only want the positive reals.
00:08:17 <shachaf> @let (?) :: Rational -> Rational -> Rational; a ? b = 1/(1/a + 1/b)
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00:08:39 <lambdabot> [1 % 1,1 % 2,1 % 3,1 % 4,1 % 5,1 % 6,1 % 7,1 % 8,1 % 9,1 % 10,1 % 11,1 % 12,...
00:09:11 <shachaf> How do you make a number greater than 1?
00:09:54 <hppavilion[1]> (Just don't use '0' or put a '-' at the beginning)
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00:11:23 <shachaf> The panaturals, obtained from 1 and (?1), are isomorphic to the naturals, obtained from 1 and (+1)?
00:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Wait, how could it be hard? you're adding two reciprocals and taking their reciprocal
00:12:01 <shachaf> I'm talking about constructing the numbers starting from this operation.
00:13:23 <lambdabot> [1 % 1,*Exception: Ratio has zero denominator
00:13:51 <lambdabot> [2 % 1,(-2) % 1,(-2) % 3,(-2) % 5,(-2) % 7,(-2) % 9,(-2) % 11,(-2) % 13,(-2)...
00:14:44 <shachaf> The sum of two natural numbers is always >= the two numbers.
00:15:16 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: So maybe you need infinitely-large numbers for it to work nicely?
00:17:05 <shachaf> OK, so like Peano numbers or something, you can start with S (for the Singular value 1), and an operation Z (the Zuccessor)
00:17:15 <shachaf> So you have S, ZS, Z(ZS), etc.
00:17:17 <quintopia> oerjan: actually it doesnt. usps hands parcels to postes canada through a portal.
00:17:39 <quintopia> the same portal ghe internet wires run through
00:18:17 <Cale> shachaf: *eye twitch*
00:19:12 <shachaf> Cale: The idea is to figure out how parallel sum works.
00:22:49 <fizzie> Z is for the zomplex type.
00:26:41 <quintopia> what are a?b=c?d s.t. a!=c or d and b!=c or d?
00:30:45 <oerjan> <quintopia> oerjan: actually it doesnt. usps hands parcels to postes canada through a portal. <-- sensible.
00:32:24 <oerjan> shachaf: it's pretty obvious that \x -> 1/x is an isomorphism between the positive reals with + and the positive reals with parallel sum.
00:33:26 <oerjan> so everything works the same, just with values pre-1/ed
00:33:49 <shachaf> So how do we know we aren't in a parallel universe, where what we think is + is really :?
00:34:21 <hppavilion[1]> sum/coproduct: a+b; product/cosum: a*b, a×b, or ab; harmonic sum/harmonic coproduct: a⊕b = 1/((1/a)+(1/b)); harmonic product/harmonic cosum: a⊗b = 1-(1-a)*(1-b) [note: what exactly it is when a or b is outside the <0 -> 1> interval is unclear; presumably take the reciprocal of those and transform the output (e.g. one reciprocal means reciprocal output, two reciprocals means reciprocal-square-output or something)]
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00:37:08 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Also, wouldn't that put us in the serial universe? Presumably parallel sum is used in the parallel universe.
00:37:50 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:38:06 <quintopia> regular sum is used in regular universe
00:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe it has summed 3 or more times for psychological gratification, taking place over a period more than a month with a significant break?)
00:39:56 <oerjan> a serial universe is obviously one that comes before or after ours in time
00:40:17 <shachaf> This is like the choice of i vs. -i
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00:40:57 <shachaf> Well, you can't distinguish i from -i
00:41:06 <shachaf> Both i^2 and (-i)^2 are -1
00:41:18 <shachaf> And you "define" i just by saying that i^2 = -1
00:41:19 <hppavilion[1]> Right, there's no difference in the properties of i and -i, but their sum isn't the same as twice either one
00:41:30 <shachaf> Oh, they're certainly not equal.
00:41:34 <shachaf> But you have to pick one arbitrarily.
00:41:51 <hppavilion[1]> (⁂ used for want of 'therefor sign' on my keyboard)
00:42:05 * boily 깻잎장아찌-ly pokes lifthrasiir
00:44:15 <oerjan> <jeffl35> they *fixed it* :( <-- *MWAHAHAHA*
00:44:32 <hppavilion[1]> Matrix harmonic sum is obviously based on inverse matrices
00:44:44 <hppavilion[1]> But what about matrix harmonic product? What's 1-<a matrix>
00:45:50 <boily> hppavilion[1]: it's a common mistranslation. it's pickled perilla leaves ^^
00:46:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//;s,\(\(..\?\)\?/\)*,,") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat
00:48:16 <oerjan> wait did i mess that up
00:48:32 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
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00:50:46 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan fizzie jeffl35 oerjan oerjan tswett tswett oerjan elliott shachaf oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan nooodl Roujo nooodl__ shachaf oerjan ais523 ais523 oerjan Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet oerjan oerjan oerjan oer
00:52:36 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:53:42 <oerjan> one thinko cancels another :P
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00:54:25 <oerjan> jeffl35: i did it somewhat buggily, so there's a loophole in it hth
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00:59:50 <HackEgo> 1padfile \ ${$1}padfile \ aaaaa \ args \ at \ foo \ fruit \ linetest \ sh \ spline \ spout \ tempcmd \ testcmd \ tmp_jonas \ wdiff \ wegians
01:00:42 <HackEgo> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
01:01:03 <HackEgo> tmp/sh: a /hackenv/tmp/args a b script, ASCII text executable
01:01:31 <HackEgo> tmp/args: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
01:01:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ for a in "$@"; do echo -n "[$a]"; done
01:01:54 <shachaf> I don't remember why tmp/args existed.
01:02:05 <HackEgo> -rwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 51 Jul 5 01:26 tmp/args
01:02:06 <shachaf> too bad we can't look at the hg history and find out
01:02:34 <oerjan> tmp/ has its bad sides.
01:03:45 <HackEgo> [a b][/hackenv/tmp/sh][hm]
01:05:22 <HackEgo> test \ test\n \ test\n \ test
01:06:12 <HackEgo> [1m[31mA[33mA[32mA[36mA[34mA[35m
01:07:24 <HackEgo> cat: tmp/b_jonas: No such file or directory
01:07:35 <HackEgo> i=0; find wisdom -type f | shuf | while read F; do i=$((i+1)); if hoag "$F" | grep -q b_jonas; then echo -n "$i:${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"; break; fi; done | rnooodl
01:07:49 <oerjan> `` ls -l tmp/tmp_jonas
01:07:50 <HackEgo> -rwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 165 Jun 17 09:26 tmp/tmp_jonas
01:09:11 <HackEgo> -rwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 14 May 25 17:55 tmp/tempcmd
01:09:16 <shachaf> are you really cleaning up tmp/
01:09:23 <shachaf> why don't you just rm -r tmp/
01:09:34 <shachaf> i would do it but there would be no revert
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01:12:46 <HackEgo> wdiff-1.2.2 \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz
01:15:52 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
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01:16:29 <HackEgo> touch: failed to get attributes of ` *': No such file or directory
01:18:27 <oerjan> i think "tmp" can be deleted at any time no one is actively using it is the simplest policy to keep.
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01:19:11 <shachaf> oerjan: what sort of garden path sentence is that
01:19:26 <shachaf> i can't make heads or tails of it
01:19:26 <oerjan> shachaf: move the second " hth
01:19:45 <shachaf> I think keeping tmp/ around is good.
01:19:55 <shachaf> spam and so on use it, for instance
01:20:02 <oerjan> yes, the directory itself
01:20:36 <shachaf> Sure, that's fine, I don't care.
01:20:43 <shachaf> It's kind of rude to delete it too frequently, though.
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01:48:24 <HackEgo> guarantee//HackEgo is guaranteed merchantable.
01:49:29 <hppavilion[1]> maybe <<`le/rn Γ/Γ is the magiscule of ſ ("long s").>>?
01:58:34 <boily> well, f is a small digamma.
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02:22:27 <pikhq> And i is ı with a combining dot.
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03:38:14 <shachaf> pikhq: "i am ı with a combining dot" hth
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03:42:04 <shachaf> as polyphemus said: "ı am being attacked by nobody"
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05:07:30 <myname> https://t.co/cwXGIgMDNc javascript
05:08:27 <shachaf> you should be polite and unshorten it twh
05:08:54 <myname> t.co os obviosly some tweet
05:10:06 <shachaf> No, t.co is Twitter's URL shortener. It could be anything.
05:12:13 <hppavilion[1]> Galleon (USD ~7.34), Sickle (17 to a Galleon), and Knut (29 to a Sickle) ([kn∧t])
05:14:21 <myname> i know a certain country with crazy units for measurement of distances
05:14:35 <myname> with feet, miles and inches
05:14:46 <myname> it's like totally crazy
05:14:53 <myname> who would ever do that shit
05:15:01 <shachaf> a pint's a pound the world around
05:15:09 <hppavilion[1]> (I would prefer if it was 5040... I wonder if that was the classical definition...)
05:15:12 <shachaf> actually a pint is nowhere a pound
05:15:21 <myname> what's the problem with it being prime?
05:15:34 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because then you can't say 1/3 galleon or something
05:15:47 <hppavilion[1]> You can't divide it up into smaller amounts and just easily math it
05:15:56 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#Equivalence hth
05:16:31 <myname> you say x sickle instead of 1/x^-1tg galleon, no problem with that
05:16:50 <shachaf> how many sickles to a hammer
05:17:01 <myname> on a scale of 17 or 29, there is really no need for fractions
05:17:54 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Also, this makes a knut ~0.002 galleons...
05:18:40 <myname> how many miles are an inch?
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05:19:16 <shachaf> Why is a gallon worth 7.34 USD?
05:19:38 <shachaf> Presumably the exchange rate has suffered.
05:19:38 <myname> what's the problem with that?
05:19:49 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, sure, but if you're already minimizing coins (why only have 3 if you aren't minimizing?), what's the NEED for a knut?
05:20:03 <myname> you know how many USD a yen are?
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05:21:40 <hppavilion[1]> It's just annoying that you can't evenly divide any of the coins...
05:21:47 <myname> also, iirc that 17 was some kind of error on rowlings part
05:21:54 <myname> it was supposed to be 16
05:22:26 <shachaf> By the way, the PDF points out that if you use parallel sum, you also want to use roots instead of exponents.
05:22:31 <myname> but somewhere she accidentally said something like 9 galleon and 16 sickle
05:22:40 <shachaf> To get identity similar to x^(a+b) = x^a x^b
05:22:46 <myname> which would have been 10 galleon
05:22:58 <myname> to not change that, she just changed the exchange rate
05:23:50 <shachaf> Wasn't the exchange rate defined in the first book?
05:24:17 <myname> rowling really is not that good in making consistent fantasy worlde
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05:39:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: there is a german video podcast on youtube where that was mentioned iirc
05:41:07 <myname> like, there is no 9 3/4 in king's cross
05:41:16 <myname> like, there is no wall
05:41:32 <myname> the wall from the movie is between 4 and 5
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06:01:56 <hppavilion[1]> (I was talking to a friend in ERA and forgot to switch for a second)
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06:35:46 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( A number is a perfect kth power if the multiplicities of its factor-bag are all divisible by k. )
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06:36:43 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( A perfect jth power is also a perfect kth power, where k \divides j )
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06:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: We have to mourn HackEgo when hacke disconnects.
06:41:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: HackEgo usually doesn't disconnect afaict. It's a big deal when e does.
06:46:53 <hppavilion[1]> And 2pi radians with Anderson Cooper was playing on the TV
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07:48:47 <hppavilion[1]> There wouldn't happen to be a value k s.t. k^(k^x) = x, would there?
07:48:55 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure that's impossible, but not 100% certain
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08:35:07 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: so much for graphics cards, modems, and the question i am interested
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11:39:47 <HackEgo> qzyzzalroum//You should start the crossword over.
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11:51:55 <HackEgo> kinder surprise//Kinder Surprise is an addictive drug marketed for children so dangerous it's banned at the federal level.
11:51:56 <HackEgo> wfraatw//A WFRAATW is a well-founded recursive acronym akin to "WFRAATW".
11:51:58 <HackEgo> footnote 8//Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
11:52:24 <boily> `` ls wisdom/foot*
11:52:26 <HackEgo> wisdom/footnote 1 \ wisdom/footnote 8
11:53:20 <boily> `` sed -i 's/\./⁸./' wisdom/footnote\ 1
11:54:02 <boily> `` sed -i 's/\?/⁺?/' wisdom/footnote\ 8
12:10:21 <HackEgo> false//false is a very old stack-based language. For an authentic experience, run it on an Amiga. It's also not true.
12:10:27 <HackEgo> wumpus//Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
12:10:41 <HackEgo> pouti//Pouti is boily's brother. he's also Canadian, and he closes the Roujo pointer loop.
12:10:42 <HackEgo> superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal//Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal is where mroman lives.
12:11:19 <boily> there's a suspicious lack of diæresises in mroman's whereabouts...
12:11:47 <boily> `` sed -i 's/\. h/. H/' wisdom/pouti
12:11:54 <HackEgo> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯//¯\_(ツ)_/¯ is the ¯\(°_o)/¯ of urbandictionary
12:12:12 <HackEgo> bardsworthlist//bardsworthlist is update notification for the Bardsworth webcomic. http://www.bardsworth.com/
12:15:33 <HackEgo> forth//Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
12:15:42 <HackEgo> québec//Attache ta tuque avec d'la broche; y fait frette icitte!
12:16:46 <boily> . o O ( mets en qu'on se les gèle... )
12:17:07 <HackEgo> catamorphism//A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.
12:18:49 <b_jonas> I don't remember some of those
12:19:13 <b_jonas> shouldn't the québec one mention québec somewhere in the content too?
12:20:09 <b_jonas> I don't recall the forth one either, though it might be old
12:20:20 <b_jonas> ok, I'll take my chance too
12:20:23 <HackEgo> font//#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz
12:20:36 <HackEgo> lexer//lexer is a maximally Norwegian painter. Its squares are munched with chili sauce.
12:21:03 <boily> that one's mine :D
12:22:57 <HackEgo> internationale//You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee.
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16:38:19 <\oren\> jesus christ the guy running the unifont project is a dick
16:38:28 <\oren\> "the Unifont package comes with its own wcwidth function that covers all glyphs that are part of Unifont in the Basic Multilingual Plane and in the Supplemental Multilingual Plane."
16:39:16 <\oren\> He's seriously asking everyone from nano to xterm to irssi to recompile their software linking to his own wcwidth function for his individual font
16:40:42 * oerjan bitches at the fact that what he'd like to bitch at would just get him laughed at because it's windows.
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16:41:39 <\oren\> oerjan: In my salvo back at that guy, I pointed out that even powershell adheres to the informal standard of using unicode's annex 11 data
16:44:03 <oerjan> (basically, windows 10 just changed to make it even harder for people to schedule reboots safely)
16:44:32 <\oren\> oerjan: oh. yeah, I would just turn off my computer every night if I had windows 10
16:44:37 <oerjan> (you now can only give a time of day when you're usually busy)
16:44:56 <\oren\> or you could disable updates
16:44:59 <oerjan> \oren\: i _do_ turn off my computer whenever i leave for long.
16:45:33 <\oren\> when I had windows 8, I disabled all updates and simply ran them manually every few months
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16:46:14 <oerjan> nonprofessional windows 10 doesn't allow disabling it, last i checked.
16:46:46 <\oren\> I also pointed out to the imbecile that "Terminal emulators typically have menu options to change fonts at will, without recompiling. And as for tmux, nano, and irssi, these should be able to act in a standard way without needing to be aware what font is in use."
16:47:05 <oerjan> windows 8 i had no problems with. it warned me a day in advance, when i turned on the computer.
16:47:59 <oerjan> with windows 10, i don't trust it to unexpectedly reboot if i'm spending too long in the bathroom...
16:48:02 <\oren\> oh. yeah I would get the professional verison
16:48:39 <oerjan> (admittedly, this may be colored by how it behaved just before the disk crash last autumn)
16:48:55 <\oren\> also, you can kill windows update
16:49:26 <\oren\> but then, I always kill things first and ask questions later
16:50:02 <oerjan> afaict it's not currently running.
16:50:15 <\oren\> http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/stop-windows-automatic-reboots <-- I wonder if this guide is still valid
16:50:35 <\oren\> oerjan: it is always running
16:50:53 <oerjan> given that my most recent problem started just this time, i doubt any site is up to date.
16:50:55 <\oren\> unless you kill it and disable its scheduled run
16:52:22 <oerjan> \oren\: that site just describes what i had previously done tdnh
16:53:01 <oerjan> that option is now gone.
16:53:25 <\oren\> oerjan: try the registry edit
16:54:17 <oerjan> \oren\: that's only for windows 7 and 8
16:54:35 <\oren\> http://superuser.com/questions/957267/how-to-disable-automatic-reboots-in-windows-10 <-- try the task scheduler thing from this thread
16:54:58 <\oren\> http://superuser.com/questions/1110265/how-to-prevent-windows-10-from-restarting-the-computer-after-installing-updates/1125051#1125051
16:56:12 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that all the options i looked for last year only worked for professional version hth
16:56:46 <\oren\> try the last link I posted.
16:57:04 <\oren\> do you know how to open the task scheduler?
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17:08:15 <oerjan> well, that looked promising, let's see if it actually works :)
17:08:55 <oerjan> \oren\: thanks for helping
17:21:22 <\oren\> hopefully this good karma will result in the unifont guy pulling his head out of his ass
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17:48:49 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> There wouldn't happen to be a value k s.t. k^(k^x) = x, would there? <-- then you get for all x,y: x+y = k^(k^(x+y)) = (k^k^x)^(k^y) = x^(k^y). thus k^y = 1 and y = k^(k^y) = k contradiction hth
17:51:41 <HackEgo> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes⁺?
17:52:11 <oerjan> that's a bit scow in my font
17:52:58 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVqqWUyDPzA
17:59:00 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> there's a suspicious lack of diæresises in mroman's whereabouts... <-- surprisingly, i think the only peculiar thing is the specifically swiss spelling "Scheissegal", which narrowly avoids a ß hth
18:00:37 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> `` sed -i 's/\. h/. H/' wisdom/pouti <-- lern2slwd hth
18:00:53 <HackEgo> Pouti is boily's brother. He's also Canadian, and he closes the Roujo pointer loop.
18:02:09 <oerjan> @tell boily (one of its advantages, shared by most wisdom/ commands, is that it tells you the result so you (and people watching) know if you messed up)
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18:11:37 <\oren\> http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2016-m10/0192.html This guy from the unicode mailing list is a master troll. I am in awe.
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19:12:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 23m 14s ago: <hppavilion[1]> There wouldn't happen to be a value k s.t. k^(k^x) = x, would there? <-- then you get for all x,y: x+y = k^(k^(x+y)) = (k^k^x)^(k^y) = x^(k^y). thus k^y =
19:12:04 <lambdabot> 1 and y = k^(k^y) = k contradiction hth
19:12:47 <quintopia> this...looks a lot like SELECT. talk
19:13:54 <\oren\> Quod Erat Non Demonstrandum
19:15:41 <\oren\> "That is what was not to be demonstrated"
19:17:15 <hppavilion[1]> Spiritually, "Which is totally unrelated to what had to be demonstrated"
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19:33:07 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is Bob my uncle? I actually don't know... )
19:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> If we restrict unclehood to only include a parent-sibling (and not a parent-sibling-spouse), Bob probably isn't my uncle; my father has one sibling- a younger sister- and my mother has 3(ish)- 2 step sisters, 1 half sister
19:34:44 <hppavilion[1]> But OTOH, my mother actually has a few more half siblings on her mother's side; I've never met them because her mother is crazy and we avoid them.
19:38:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cosmikdebris * New user account
19:43:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49931&oldid=49908 * Cosmikdebris * (+114)
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19:45:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49932&oldid=49931 * Cosmikdebris * (+156)
19:45:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49933&oldid=43160 * Cosmikdebris * (+52) /* GPM and TRAC language */
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19:47:31 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: fnord the moment i mostly work on 1024x768.
19:47:41 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
19:47:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 121800Z 14004KT 060V200 30SM FEW150 FEW240 19/05 A3015 RMK AC1CI1 SLP213 DENSITY ALT 300FT \ ENVA 121820Z 12007KT CAVOK M00/M01 Q1033 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT VRB03KT \ ESSB 121820Z 02003KT 9999
19:47:45 <lambdabot> BKN019 07/03 Q1034 \ KOAK 121753Z 22003KT 10SM BKN010 OVC012 16/12 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP193 T01560117 10156 20133 50015
19:47:49 <lambdabot> PAMR 121753Z 03004KT 7SM CLR 01/M03 A2967 RMK AO2 SLP050 60000 T00111028 10011 21028 58002
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19:59:19 <hppavilion[1]> What equation gives the number of possible unique permutations of an n*n*n rubik's cube?
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20:02:59 <gamemanj> If you assume that any possible state can be reached in a rubik's cube (probabyl
20:03:11 <gamemanj> *probably untrue in any cube with a "centre")
20:04:41 <gamemanj> then multiply the amount of squares on each face by 6, and then get 6^(the resulting number)?
20:04:53 <gamemanj> At least, that should be an upper bound.
20:05:45 <gamemanj> Just checked, it definitely covers too many possibilities,
20:05:47 <alercah> there is a parity; half the states are unreachable
20:06:10 <gamemanj> Also, all 6 colours must be on the cube in the same amount.
20:06:39 <gamemanj> So (for a standard size 3 cube): 6^(9 * 6) will not work.
20:06:53 <Taneb> gamemanj, there'll be something very clever to do with group actions I imagine
20:07:06 <alercah> I don't think you need much group theory
20:07:26 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yeah, that's simple, the problem is the impossible states
20:07:42 <alercah> I'm pretty sure, not positive, that there is only one parity that eliminates states
20:08:02 <hppavilion[1]> I want to know how many states *that can be reached*, not just the logical upper bound
20:08:53 <alercah> hmm apparently there are two parities on the 4x4 cube
20:09:33 <alercah> although one can be eliminated by moving pieces around in the center
20:09:47 <alercah> so I guess it also depends on whether you consider identically-coloured pieces as distinct
20:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> Does bachelor imply "not currently married" or "has never been married"?
20:12:50 <\oren\> someone male, formerly married is a divorcee, or a widower depending on how the marriage ended
20:13:21 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: So a divorcee or a widower isn't a bachelor?
20:13:57 <hppavilion[1]> Also: Whatever the gay version of "Widower" is (man formerly married to another man, with the marriage ending in his spouse's death)
20:15:57 <int-e> There are (8! * 3^7 * 12! * 2^11)/2 Rubik's cube configurations reachable by just face turns; if you allow turning the whole cube then this is multiplied by an additional factor of 24.
20:15:58 <alercah> what if the marriage was annulled?
20:17:25 <\oren\> s annulled that means legally it never happened
20:17:38 <\oren\> so they become a bachelor/spinster again
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20:18:54 <int-e> For the 4x4x4 cube I guess it's 8!*3^7 * 24! * 24!/4!^6 (assuming the normal kind where the four center pieces of each face are indistinguishable)
20:19:54 <shachaf> Cale: Do you know whether the linear logic operation par has an analogy in vector spaces? I guess A # B would be A* -o B, or (A* ⊗ B*)*, or something.
20:20:56 <int-e> (note that because of those indistinguishable pieces this not the size of the underlying group; that group is just acting on the 4x4x4 cube, and many group elements correspond to the same pattern on the surface)
20:23:02 <int-e> Yeah, that seems big enough for "many".
20:29:56 <int-e> And actually I think I should divide by 2 there.
20:33:54 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B]
20:38:20 <\oren\> gamemanj: spinster means an unmarried woman
20:38:36 <\oren\> or rather a woman who has nvever married
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20:43:34 <\oren\> uh oh, SJW flame war imminent on unicode mailing list
20:44:11 <gamemanj> mailing lists sure do like flame wars these days
20:49:13 <\oren\> about whether it was a mistake to have brown and pink emoji
20:50:18 <alercah> it doesn't matter, because it's done, no?
20:50:27 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -r invisible * | shuf
20:50:27 <gamemanj> On the one hand, if the reference implementation of the emoji had a race, then no. Otherwise, it was, since it implied a race for the default, which made a complete mess.
20:50:36 <HackEgo> Binary file reflection matches \ ipu:IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
20:51:51 <\oren\> gamemanj: most emoji have been bright yellow since prehistory
20:52:05 <gamemanj> oren: But was it specified as bright yellow?
20:52:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bug Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49934&oldid=49926 * Function call without parameters * (-4) correction of opcode F9
20:52:30 <\oren\> other emoji were invented by japanese people and were usually displayed with pale skin and black hair like most japanese people have
20:53:27 <\oren\> I don't think the specification ever specified colors
20:53:42 <gamemanj> In which case, it was never Unicode's problem, so thus nothing to talk about.
20:55:11 <\oren\> but now, we have the yellow ones, and five human skin tones, none of which match my phenotype (super pale, brownish hair) anyway
20:56:20 <\oren\> luckily I chose not to post in the mailing list, but someone said stuff nayway
20:58:36 <\oren\> about "what if I have blue skin" which is a stupid example of someone who doesn't fit
21:00:03 <\oren\> actually, samsung doesn't have yellow by default
21:00:33 <\oren\> instead the default for them is pale with brownish hair
21:00:34 <gamemanj> Maybe just zero the saturation of all emoji. Everywhere.
21:00:50 <gamemanj> Not just pale, but completely nil the saturation. Turn them all into robots.
21:01:07 <gamemanj> As for the skin-colour modifiers, does anyone even write those?
21:01:13 <alercah> \oren\: yes, but that's samsung
21:01:27 <alercah> they also have six-fingered hands
21:03:01 <\oren\> so they made the emoji european by default, and then the lightest color modifier mades tham asian with black hair
21:03:23 <\oren\> I would have expecte the opposite from samsung
21:06:23 <\oren\> really six fingered hands? I don't see any
21:16:42 <\oren\> http://emojipedia.org/crossed-flags/ <- interesting difference there, samsung!
21:22:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[POGAACK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49935&oldid=46376 * Rdebath * (+105) Example gave wrong result, also Implementation
21:24:13 <gamemanj> \oren\: interesting indeed, now you point it out...
21:25:12 <gamemanj> (the "politically correct" way to handle this, of course, would have been to remove the red dot, but not put anything else on, successfully neutralizing the flag. Then again, "happy holidays" doesn't have that ring to it...)
21:25:46 <gamemanj> In other news, I'm not quite sure what HTC are doing.
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21:27:03 <gamemanj> Aha! I worked it out! HTC's implementation of the crossed-flags emoji is because of the whole "flat UI" trend.
21:28:12 <DHeadshot> gameanj: "Politically correct", but surrendering?
21:28:50 <gamemanj> DHeadshot: Well, it was either that or display the flag of whatever country the user's in, and then you end up having issues when a new country comes along and starts complaining.
21:28:54 <gamemanj> Also, there are a lot of countries.
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21:30:00 <gamemanj> DHeadshot: The same argument against "surrendering" also counts against "finishing", I'd think...
21:30:19 <gamemanj> And if you used coloured chequered flags, the vendors would never agree on a colour.
21:31:03 <\oren\> well, it's not as bad as when google ruined christmas with a frowning santa
21:31:07 <\oren\> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=41827
21:33:30 <gamemanj> someone actually got assigned to that issue. assigned to the issue of making Santa happier.
21:33:47 <gamemanj> Issue trackers have gone too far.
21:40:41 <int-e> how is any of that the issue tracker's fault...
21:41:37 <gamemanj> issue trackers make rampant bureaucracy possible!
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22:01:36 * gamemanj mumbles something to himself about hoping the patient(s) survive
22:02:45 <gamemanj> (I'm guessing you didn't mean that kind of "operations"?)
22:02:59 <gamemanj> (Actually - replace "guessing" with "hoping"...)
22:06:42 <hppavilion[1]> I have a+:b (properly, it's a plus sign with diaeresis/umlaut, but limiting to mostly ASCII is necessary here), which is roughly equal to basket((+), a, b) (it isn't exact because of rational inputs)
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22:12:05 <hppavilion[1]> I guess j+:k is the kth j-trapezoid/trapezium number?
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22:13:55 <hppavilion[1]> (OK, the different words bug me. I move that 'trapezium' be a subset of 'trapezoids'- to fit with the '-oid' prefix. Perhaps a trapezium is the traditional, vertically-symmetrical shape and trapezoid has no such requirement?)
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22:29:57 <hppavilion[1]> There may be no feeling more repetitively confusing (being able to confuse you again 2 seconds after you remember why it's happening) and frustrating than a software you use losing a hotkey
22:30:34 <\oren\> I recommend using a soldering iron to make the key hot again
22:30:46 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. When I type something into the search bar (ctrl+k type) and hit <ENTER>, it doesn't search on <ENTER>)
22:31:13 <\oren\> try using a soldering iron to heat up your enter key
22:31:29 <\oren\> it will then be a hotkey again
22:31:34 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: OK, let me grab the soldering iron I have on hand preheated at all times
22:33:52 <\oren\> I love the smell of molten plastic at midnight
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22:54:24 <shachaf> What do you call a linear map e.g. f : R^2 -> R^3 that leaves the (x,y) coordinates unchanged, just adds a z coordinate?
22:55:41 <\oren\> well, for one, it's an embedding of a flat 2-manifold in 3-space?
22:58:10 <\oren\> or a matrix of the form [1,0;0,1;x,y]?
22:58:42 <shachaf> Sure, it's both of those things.
22:58:57 <shachaf> I guess it's a section in particular.
23:00:15 <shachaf> But is there a specific name for it, like "natural embedding"?
23:00:44 <shachaf> (And I mean from any space to a higher-dimensional space, of course.)
23:02:05 <shachaf> Well, what's the name of f (x,y,z) = (x,y)?
23:02:41 <\oren\> the projection on the x,y plane?
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23:15:53 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L1Eh5iJBS4
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23:45:07 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to, just for fun, create a deterministic, computer-driven numerological fortune teller
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23:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> Generally, it takes some information about the current user and some information about the current state of the world (the simplest system is the user's birthday and today's date)
23:50:40 <hppavilion[1]> And generates several pseudo-random numbers from that seed
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00:25:41 <hppavilion[1]> I'm changing the algorithm so the range is 0..2^24 rather than 0..2^16, so you can spit out a hex color if you so desire
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00:38:12 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 39m 12s ago: <boily> there's a suspicious lack of diæresises in mroman's whereabouts... <-- surprisingly, i think the only peculiar thing is the specifically swiss spelling "Scheissega
00:38:12 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 37m 34s ago: <boily> `` sed -i 's/\. h/. H/' wisdom/pouti <-- lern2slwd hth
00:38:12 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 36m 3s ago: (one of its advantages, shared by most wisdom/ commands, is that it tells you the result so you (and people watching) know if you messed up)
00:38:52 <boily> nonsense! Fungot intended us to use the Pure Sed as It Was Meant!
00:38:59 <boily> (or something like that.)
00:40:19 <shachaf> oerjan: itym "lwrn2slwd" hth
00:41:15 <shachaf> for adding inappropriate content to the wisdom database, please use slewd
00:42:24 <HackEgo> `slwd <wisdom name>//<sed script>
00:42:40 <HackEgo> D is a letter in the alphabet! It's also the name of a programming language.
00:42:54 <HackEgo> `sled <filename>//<sed script>
00:43:18 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/sl*: No such file or directory
00:43:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
00:43:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
00:43:52 <HackEgo> bin/slashes \ bin/slashlearn \ bin/sled \ bin/slist \ bin/slwd
00:44:23 <ybden> sled is for files; slwd is for wisdoms
00:44:59 <ybden> Does slwd stand for anything, or is it just e->w[isdom] from sled?
00:45:19 <HackEgo> bin/leann \ bin/learn \ bin/learn_append \ bin/learn_append2 \ bin/len \ bin/len.pl
00:45:43 <HackEgo> (($#==1)) && set -- "${1% *}" "${1#* }"; key=${1,,}; shift; cat <<< "${*,,}" > "wisdom/$key" && echo "Learned «$key»"
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00:46:16 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; \ use warnings; \ use 5.010; \ use Encode qw/decode encode FB_CROAK LEAVE_SRC/; \ \ sub put { \ my ($count, $item) = @_; \ if ($count == 1) { \ say "1 $item"; \ } else { \ say "$count ${item}s"; \ } \ } \ \ my $line = "@ARGV"; \ \ my $unicode; \ eval { \ $unicode = decode "UTF-
00:46:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/len
00:47:13 <ybden> `readlink bin/len.pl
00:47:37 <ybden> `` ls -i bin/len{,.pl}
00:47:38 <HackEgo> 664916 bin/len \ 664917 bin/len.pl
00:47:45 <ybden> `` ls -al bin/len{,.pl}
00:47:46 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 951 Sep 25 20:32 bin/len \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 951 Sep 25 20:32 bin/len.pl
00:47:56 <ybden> `` ls -alFh bin/len{,.pl}
00:47:57 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 951 Sep 25 20:32 bin/len* \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 951 Sep 25 20:32 bin/len.pl
00:48:20 <HackEgo> shaventions include: before/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
00:48:34 <shachaf> `` doag | grep ybden | head -n1
00:48:46 <ybden> I don't think I've actually made anything here
00:48:47 <HackEgo> 2016-10-12 <boily> ` sed -i \'s/\\. h/. H/\' wisdom/pouti
00:48:58 <HackEgo> hlnp --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
00:49:14 <HackEgo> hg log "$@" | sed 's/.>/\x0F&/g'
00:49:39 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, you np every single word in the doag output?
00:49:55 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
00:50:41 <shachaf> Oh, no, only things ending in >
00:50:46 <shachaf> I mixed it up with \> in vim
00:50:56 <shachaf> I guess that's not as bad.
00:51:27 <HackEgo> wisdom/pouti//Pouti is boily's brother. he's also Canadian, and he closes the Roujo pointer loop.
00:51:34 <HackEgo> wisdom/pouti//Pouti is boily's brother. He's also Canadian, and he closes the Roujo pointer loop.
00:51:44 <ybden> vim regex are horrible and weird
00:51:47 <HackEgo> vim equals to approximately ccxxxviin.
00:52:00 <shachaf> At least they support intersection!
00:52:12 <shachaf> Show me another regex thing that supports that.
00:52:24 <ybden> shachaf: huh, what's the syntax for that?
00:52:40 <HackEgo> false//false is a very old stack-based language. For an authentic experience, run it on an Amiga. It's also not true.
00:52:43 <shachaf> I didn't know it existed until, I don't know. Some time.
00:52:58 <FireFly> you can sorta do intersection with lookahead
00:53:08 <HackEgo> Poutine was Pouti and boily's sister until the tragic cheese accident.
00:53:09 <boily> vim is the feather of text editors. the feature has existed before you thought it will exist.
00:53:22 <ybden> shachaf: apparently Java supports it, according to https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39236488/how-to-use-intersection-union-and-subtraction-in-vim-regular-expression-charact
00:53:35 <FireFly> except with less silly patterns
00:54:08 <ybden> I honestly don't think I'd ever need that though
00:54:16 <FireFly> ybden: that's [] sets though, not of patterns
00:55:04 <shachaf> I would use it quite often, I think.
00:55:11 <shachaf> Except I guess it can be very inefficient.
00:55:27 <shachaf> Of course you also want complement if you have intersection.
00:55:54 <shachaf> ybden: That Java thing is character class intersection.
00:56:01 <shachaf> I want general regex intersection.
00:56:22 <ybden> That sounds... kind of powerful
00:56:46 <shachaf> too powerful to be in the hands of the people
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01:01:19 <hppavilion[1]> It's interesting that, when reading vowelless words (e.g. command names (e.g. slwd)), I seem to fall back on <w> = [u:], despite the fact that that literally never ever happens in english.
01:02:20 <boily> what are you talking abwt.
01:03:02 <hppavilion[1]> (or 'aboat', but 'aboot' is what I read it as in this context)
01:03:31 <hppavilion[1]> boily: When I see slwd, I read it like 'slood' for no reason whatsoever, despite 'w' never making 'oo' in (modern) english
01:04:22 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm inventing a computerized numerology engine. It takes some personal information and information about the real world, puts it in a pRNG, and spits out some numbers
01:04:23 <oerjan> `mkx bin/nhlp//hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1\x0F\2/g'
01:05:52 <HackEgo> hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1\x0F\2/g'
01:06:07 <HackEgo> oerjan fizzie jeffl35 shachaf
01:06:36 <HackEgo> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs
01:06:36 <HackEgo> cat: bin/doge: No such file or directory
01:07:33 <HackEgo> oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf oerjan shachaf shachaf oerjan shachaf shachaf fizzie evilipse shachaf shachaf shachaf oerjan boily shachaf shachaf oerjan shachaf oerjan boily boily oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf oerjan oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf noloveinwaikiki noloveinwaikik
01:07:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cuulprits: not found
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01:08:28 <oerjan> `mkx bin/hlnp//hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1\x0F\2/g'
01:09:17 <oerjan> shachaf: now it's a little more distinguishing hth
01:10:31 <HackEgo> bin/pacman \ bin/pad \ bin/password \ bin/pastalog \ bin/pastaquote \ bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom \ bin/pastlog \ bin/pbflist \ bin/perl-e \ bin/piglatin \ bin/pikhqbow \ bin/ping \ bin/ploki \ bin/pong \ bin/poulet \ bin/prefixes \ bin/preproce
01:10:41 <shachaf> `learn hlnp is hg log, no ping
01:10:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'hlnp': hlnp is hg log, no ping
01:10:52 <shachaf> `learn pnhl is past, no hilights
01:10:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'pnhl': pnhl is past, no hilights
01:11:38 <shachaf> `learn lpnh is log program, no hilight
01:11:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'lpnh': lpnh is log program, no hilight
01:12:37 <shachaf> `learn nhlp is no hilight past
01:12:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'nhlp': nhlp is no hilight past
01:12:42 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:13:06 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:13:28 <boily> `learn nlhp is a hockey programme.
01:13:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'nlhp': nlhp is a hockey programme.
01:13:52 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Has it been decided that `revert isn't worth fixing? )
01:14:04 <boily> (or is is nhl? I am a false Canadian, with no hockey knowdlege...)
01:14:49 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I *think* it's nhl? Or maybe that's the American one...
01:19:09 <ybden> < hppavilion[1]> It's interesting that, when reading vowelless words (e.g. command names (e.g. slwd)), I seem to fall back on <w> = [u:], despite the fact that that literally never ever happens in english. ← Hmm, I'd say that the same happens for me
01:19:29 <oerjan> probably. the revert didn't show up in the repo browser at all
01:20:37 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/{hlnp,pnhl,lpnh,nhlp}
01:20:39 <shachaf> "ew" is pronounce kind of like u
01:21:02 <shachaf> I mean, in words like "lewd" and "news"
01:21:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slewd: not found
01:21:31 <shachaf> It also works that way in Welsh?
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01:22:42 <oerjan> * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Has it been decided that `revert isn't worth fixing? ) <-- well only fizzie and gregor can do it. i suppose someone else could make a pull request if they find out how to fix it.
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01:23:10 <oerjan> `learn An union is the opposite of an ion.
01:23:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'union': An union is the opposite of an ion.
01:23:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That wasn't the joke I was going for at all
01:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I was going to have union as in "Carpenter's Union" or "Writer's Union"
01:24:39 <boily> an union and and intersection are about not quite the same hth
01:25:20 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: eval ( sin 5)) " whatever"
01:25:58 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: like an editor like emacs, you see :) thanks! i pixeled everything myself
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01:27:40 <oerjan> `learn An intersection is the opposite of an inverbosection.
01:27:42 <HackEgo> Learned 'intersection': An intersection is the opposite of an inverbosection.
01:28:10 * boily *THWACKS* oerjan. 0.99 Sh.
01:34:12 <boily> you were deduced 0.01 because I had pizza in my mouth.
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01:35:22 <oerjan> boily: did you suddenly stop having pizza in your mouth at that point
01:36:32 <boily> no, it went the natural throaty way.
01:36:43 <boily> quinthellopia. typing is hard hth
01:37:26 <quintopia> so what did you do with your holiday
01:38:05 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( A conlang with nothing but vowels would be fun )
01:38:36 <boily> quintopia: played Dominion with the bro and one of his friends, then ate couscous, which is always nice.
01:38:50 * boily loves a good steaming couscous with merguez
01:38:54 <boily> hppavilion[1]: aUI hth
01:39:28 <boily> quintopia: what did you canada?
01:40:47 <oerjan> boily: i see consonants in that phoneme list tdnh
01:41:31 <oerjan> although it seems to have a goodly 12 vowels
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01:41:59 <boily> oh, they do have consonants. I remembered the anomalous number of vowels...
01:42:14 <boily> twelve is not enough. there should be more!
01:42:16 <oerjan> it's fewer vowels than norwegian and swedish hth
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01:43:50 <oerjan> oh wait, aUI has nasals too
01:48:24 <quintopia> boily: niagara falls and niagara on the lake
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02:11:32 <HackEgo> taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
02:15:16 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:15:27 -!- `^_^v has joined.
02:15:33 <boily> ah, Windows's a new one.
02:16:58 <shachaf> i,i why is windows 2000 afraid of windows 90?
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02:17:18 * boily doublethwacks shachaf. 0.2 Sh.
02:19:20 <HackEgo> 2016-10-10 <shachaf> slwd tanebvention//s#and#the Oxford comma, and# \ 2016-10-10 <shachaf> slwd tanebvention//s#Tanebventions, ## \ 2016-10-10 <hppavilion[1]> ` sed -i \'s#the universe, #the universe, the triverse, #\' wisdom/tanebvention \ 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-08-01 <shachaf
02:19:35 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep indow
02:19:37 <HackEgo> 2016-07-25 <shachaf> slwd tanebvention//s#Go,#Go, Windows 98,#
02:21:02 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s/Windows 90, //
02:21:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:21:09 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s/Windows 98, //
02:21:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:22:00 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep triverse
02:22:02 <HackEgo> 2016-10-10 <hppavilion[1]> ` sed -i \'s#the universe, #the universe, the triverse, #\' wisdom/tanebvention
02:22:16 <oerjan> hm give it a while longer
02:22:19 <HackEgo> sauron//Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor.
02:22:40 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep comma
02:22:42 <HackEgo> 2016-10-10 <shachaf> slwd tanebvention//s#and#the Oxford comma, and#
02:22:58 <HackEgo> oxford//The home of English, woven shirts, and the serial comma.
02:24:17 <HackEgo> oxford//The home of English, woven shirts, and the serial comma.
02:29:03 <HackEgo> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs
02:29:20 <HackEgo> cat: hoag: No such file or directory
02:29:23 <HackEgo> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
02:29:38 <HackEgo> hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1\x0F\2/g'
02:29:46 <HackEgo> changeset: 121:8a04b0258775 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Mar 22 19:17:38 2012 +0000 \ summary: <elliott> run mv bin test; touch bin
02:32:04 <oerjan> jeffl35: i made hlnp so the programs that do hg log don't ping users as much.
02:32:33 <fungot> boily: they were talking about
02:32:42 <boily> fungot: yes, they were talking about.
02:32:42 <fungot> boily: if it can't be done portably
02:32:52 <boily> fungot: then it must be done locally.
02:32:52 <fungot> boily: i've been instead thinking about tranbit.
02:33:02 <boily> fungot: itym transit hth
02:33:02 <fungot> boily: see http://srfi.schemers.org/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord ( colin's temporarily offline.) ugly html and not guaranteed to be disjoint) see the r5rs section on derived expressions.
02:33:18 <boily> fungot: I'd rather not.
02:33:44 <jeffl35> oerjan: ironically it still pings >_<
02:33:58 <jeffl35> adding a double-\x02 should help
02:34:14 <oerjan> jeffl35: what does \02 do
02:34:27 <jeffl35> really, nothing, when you have two in a row
02:34:41 -!- joozygooch has changed nick to snootypoot.
02:35:03 <jeffl35> oh does it strip formatting
02:35:15 <boily> jelloff35, or jeffllo35?
02:35:16 <oerjan> jeffl35: i suspect that's your client's problem
02:35:37 <boily> oerjan: what would you porthello jeffl35 with?
02:35:40 <jeffl35> a zero-width space seems to help
02:36:00 * boily looks sternly at jeffl35.
02:36:06 <oerjan> jeffl35: ZWSP messes up shachaf's terminal
02:36:22 <oerjan> we use them some places.
02:36:35 <oerjan> including HackEgo's botloop prevention.
02:36:41 <boily> messing shachaf is fun ^^
02:37:08 <boily> -echo -echo -echo -echo
02:37:31 <jeffl35> -eval bot.sendMsg(chan,'\x01')
02:37:39 <jeffl35> -eval bot.sendMsg(chan,'jef\x01fl35')
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02:38:23 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: brine :: t0 -> terror: Variable not in scope: ...
02:38:44 <jeffl35> welp, that certainly does not work
02:39:06 <jeffl35> \x01ACTION pokes otherbot\x01
02:39:12 <oerjan> i think b_jonas had some plans to write a noping script that did lookalikes.
02:39:28 <oerjan> but he hasn't finished it afaik
02:39:40 <jeffl35> https://github.com/reinderien/mimic
02:39:53 <jeffl35> [ab]using Unicode to create tragedy
02:39:59 <jeffl35> in this case, s/tragedy/goodness/
02:40:41 <oerjan> hm i had an idea maybe i should try it...
02:41:33 <jeffl35> -eval bot.sendMsg(chan,'\u0391')
02:41:45 <jeffl35> -eval bot.sendMsg(chan,'\u0410')
02:42:06 <HackEgo> [U+0410 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER A]
02:42:14 <HackEgo> [U+0391 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA]
02:44:06 <HackEgo> tr: missing operand \ Try `tr --help' for more information.
02:44:15 <HackEgo> Usage: tr [OPTION]... SET1 [SET2] \ Translate, squeeze, and/or delete characters from standard input, \ writing to standard output. \ \ -c, -C, --complement use the complement of SET1 \ -d, --delete delete characters in SET1, do not translate \ -s, --squeeze-repeats replace each input sequence of a repeated character \
02:44:15 <hppavilion[1]> What's the most efficient deterministic Primality test that can be implemented within the limits of a reasonable computer (no integrals, no irrationals)?
02:45:06 <jeffl35> you should see real spam, aka my bot printing out a man page
02:50:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: check out AKS hth
02:50:50 <oerjan> although i think it's been improved.
02:51:19 <oerjan> also determinism is overrated.
02:59:59 -!- Hooloo42 has changed nick to Hoolootwo.
03:09:42 <oerjan> i knew you'd say that.
03:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...I'm not certain, but I *think* that's a pun.
03:11:25 <oerjan> i don't think that counts as a "pun" hth
03:11:47 <hppavilion[1]> It's not direct wordplay, but it's certainly similar
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04:22:21 <jeffl35> use fullwidth instead of half-width
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04:23:23 <hppavilion[1]> jeffl35: We already have a highlight preventer I'm pretty sure
04:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> My message should be highlighted, but not HackEgo's
04:24:09 <shachaf> nhlp = no hilight prevention
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04:26:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
04:26:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:29:32 <jeffl35> so s/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234567890/ａｂｃｄｅｆｇｈｉｊｋｌｍｎｏｐｑｒｓｔｕｖｗｘｙｚＡＢＣＤＥＦＧＨＩＪＫＬＭＮＯＰＱＲＳＴＵＶＷＸＹＺ１２３４５６７８９０/g
04:31:53 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I really feel like HackEgo should just come with builtin variables $CALLER (the nick of the person who ran the command) and $ULIST (list of all users in the channel separated by some delimiter)
04:33:30 <shachaf> The former would be fine, though people have sort of simulated it in various ways. The latter sounds like a bad idea.
04:33:48 <shachaf> Also the point of HackEgo is to do things within the constraints one is given.
04:36:24 <jeffl35> shachaf: how would you "simulate" such a thing anyways?
04:37:09 <jeffl35> but a thing simulator can't simulate getting nicks :P
04:37:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
04:37:45 <jeffl35> (clarification: how would you know who ran the command without knowing who ran the command)
04:38:13 <shachaf> In the past HackEgo had access to channel logs.
04:38:36 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized I have two command windows column-cascaded on my screen
04:38:47 <shachaf> But there are other ways sometimes. Running `list might give you a hint.
04:39:10 <HackEgo> fizzie jeffl35 evilipse BlueProtoman hppavilion[1] Phantom_Hoover int-e b_jonas boily a`a`a`a`jo7as a`a`a`a`jo8as a`a`a`a`jo3as a`a`a`a`jo6as a`a`a`a`jo5as a`a`a`a`jo4as a`a`a`a`jo2as a`a`a`a`jo1as a`a`a`a`jonas0 a`a`a`a lambdabot chicken_jonas myname
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04:39:40 <HackEgo> date > share/conscripts; culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs
04:39:57 <HackEgo> Thu Oct 13 03:38:36 UTC 2016
04:40:13 <HackEgo> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs
04:40:19 <HackEgo> cat: bin/hoac: No such file or directory
04:40:20 <HackEgo> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
04:40:32 <HackEgo> changeset: 9255:672421a5e7f7 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Oct 13 03:38:38 2016 +0000 \ summary: <jeffl35> list \ \ changeset: 9254:290edba60071 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Oct 13 01:20:40 2016 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> slwd tanebvention//s/Windows 98, // \ \ changeset: 9253:2805033a8bb
04:40:40 <HackEgo> hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1\x0F\2/g'
04:41:41 <shachaf> `` echo '<blah> <blah>' sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1Q\2/g'
04:41:42 <HackEgo> <blah> <blah> sed s/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1Q\2/g
04:41:49 <shachaf> `` echo '<blah> <blah>' | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1Q\2/g'
04:43:26 <jeffl35> -eval 'efefef'.replace(/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/,/\1Q\2/)
04:43:31 <jeffl35> -eval '<efefef>'.replace(/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/,/\1Q\2/)
04:43:49 <hppavilion[1]> jeffl35: No, that doesn't go down indefinitely it seems
04:44:03 <jeffl35> well it blocked my term for 30 secs straight
04:46:32 <otherbot> ReferenceError: tree is not defined
04:46:43 <jeffl35> hppavilion[1]: or you cuold use tree
04:47:03 <jeffl35> ^ probably your best option :P
04:47:10 <jeffl35> no idea how i didn't think of that before
04:49:51 <hppavilion[1]> Wow, HackEgo is a billion times simpler than I would have guessed
04:50:08 <shachaf> You mean it's one billionth as complicated.
04:50:15 <pikhq> I dare say it's naive.
04:50:24 <shachaf> The multiplcative absolute value is a billion, though.
04:50:29 <shachaf> The thing I was talking about the other day.
04:50:42 <hppavilion[1]> (But really, it looks like it couldn't possibly be hard to add $USR)
04:50:58 <shachaf> It's not desperately needed.
04:51:17 <jeffl35> People would prefer if it was there
04:51:55 <oerjan> `mkx bin/hlnp//hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/g'
04:52:23 <oerjan> `culprits bin/culprits
04:52:25 <HackEgo> oerjän fizzïe jeffl3̈5 oerjän hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] oerjän hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] int-̈e Jafët Jafët tsweẗt tsweẗt shachäf shachäf shachäf FireFl̈y FireFl̈y FireFl̈y FireFl̈y FireFl̈y FireFl̈y shachäf
04:52:27 <jeffl35> oerjan: you could replace one of the chars with their fullwidth counterpart
04:52:46 <jeffl35> s/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234567890/ａｂｃｄｅｆｇｈｉｊｋｌｍｎｏｐｑｒｓｔｕｖｗｘｙｚＡＢＣＤＥＦＧＨＩＪＫＬＭＮＯＰＱＲＳＴＵＶＷＸＹＺ１２３４５６７８９０/g
04:53:06 <oerjan> jeffl35: this feels more lightweight
04:53:20 <jeffl35> aside from the fact that it highlights me a lot >_<
04:53:39 <shachaf> oerjan: what about noping hth
04:53:43 <oerjan> jeffl35: what _do_ you highlight on?
04:53:45 <HackEgo> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs
04:54:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Messages containing letters, numbers, or symbols.
04:54:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: why are you answering
04:54:40 <hppavilion[1]> (so the only messages that don't highlight em contain only diacritics, control characters, and emoji)
04:55:14 <HackEgo> [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE]
04:55:26 <oerjan> jeffl35: are you saying that highlights you?
05:01:35 <oerjan> shachaf: well which noping? the one that breaks your terminal or the one which highlights jeffl35?
05:01:58 <oerjan> i was hoping the diaeresis would work for everyone.
05:02:48 <shachaf> I think the main thing that breaks my terminal is whatever HackEgo puts at the beginning of a line.
05:02:59 <oerjan> but if hexchat really is so stubborn that it strips everything...
05:03:20 <shachaf> Wait, ^O doesn't break my terminal
05:03:31 <oerjan> indeed. but it highlights jeffl35
05:03:44 <shachaf> But I like the diaeresis better.
05:03:52 <oerjan> hexchat strips formatting.
05:04:12 <oerjan> shachaf: well he sounded like that didn't work. then he dyed.
05:04:20 <oerjan> so i didn't get a confirmation.
05:05:45 <oerjan> i'm at the point where i wonder if he highlights on j.*e.*f.*f.*l.*3.*5
05:06:10 <oerjan> jeffl35: did the diaeresis work then?
05:08:11 <oerjan> next up: get Gregor` to use that at the beginning of HackEgo's lines >;)
05:09:06 <shachaf> Apparently the diaeresis is so powerful that it highlights people who aren't even involved.
05:11:45 <jeffl35> shachaf: does this -><- break your term?
05:12:43 <HackEgo> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER] [U+003C LESS-THAN SIGN]
05:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to identify the difference between a set being coprime and it being pairwise coprime...
05:15:37 <hppavilion[1]> I instinctively want to say it's exactly the same, but the mathematician in me says it isn't (partially because there wouldn't be a distinction if there was)
05:16:50 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
05:17:10 <hppavilion[1]> {6, 12, 25) is coprime (1 is the largest number that divides 6, 12, AND 25 evenly), but not pairwise (6 and 12 are both divisible by 6)
05:17:19 <HackEgo> U+000F <control> \ UTF-8: 0f UTF-16BE: 000f Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0003 <control> \ UTF-8: 03 UTF-16BE: 0003 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
05:20:19 <jeffl35> shachaf: ping, <jeffl35> shachaf: does this -><- break your term?
05:20:31 <jeffl35> that would probably be a better choice
05:21:41 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Are there any integers that AREN'T of cultural significance? )
05:22:39 <shachaf> Almost all integers aren't.
05:23:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What is the smallest culturally-insignificant positive integer?
05:24:02 <jeffl35> -wolf answer to life, universe, and everything - 1
05:24:03 <otherbot> Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything-1 | 41 |
05:24:48 <jeffl35> -wolf smallest culturally-insignificant positive integer
05:25:02 <oerjan> that looks very small indeed
05:25:24 <shachaf> This channel is full of noise.
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05:37:18 <shachaf> oerjan: your hth script doesn't work on /quit hth hth
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06:20:52 <pikhq> 14 packets transmitted, 10 received, 28% packet loss, time 13015ms
06:20:54 <pikhq> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1439.575/2113.365/2689.358/420.946 ms, pipe 3
06:20:59 <pikhq> I'm getting a head on a pike.
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09:28:59 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> i think b_jonas had some plans to write a noping script that did lookalikes." -- correct
09:29:29 <b_jonas> in particular, lookalikes but in such a way that it prioritizes to use few bytes, so eg. uses cyrillic letters
09:32:43 <HackEgo> oerjän fizzïe jeffl3̈5 oerjän hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] oerjän hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] int-̈e Jafët Jafët tsweẗt tsweẗt shachäf shachäf shachäf FireFl̈y FireFl̈y FireFl̈y FireFl̈y FireFl̈y FireFl̈y shachäf
09:33:31 <HackEgo> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs
09:34:03 <shachaf> `` hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | head -n100 | sort | uniq -c | sort -n
09:34:14 <shachaf> `` hoag | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | head -n100 | sort | uniq -c | sort -n
09:34:15 <HackEgo> 1 ais52̈3 \ 1 jeffl3̈5 \ 1 Tanëb \ 2 alercäh \ 2 b_jonäs \ 2 tsweẗt \ 6 boil̈y \ 6 int-̈e \ 6 jeffl4̈2 \ 6 moonythedwar̈f \ 11 hppavilion[1̈] \ 12 shachäf \ 44 oerjän
09:34:22 <shachaf> `` hoag | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | head -n1000 | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
09:34:24 <HackEgo> 354 oerjän \ 241 shachäf \ 54 hppavilion[1̈] \ 46 b_jonäs \ 40 int-̈e \ 37 izaber̈a \ 29 boil̈y \ 26 \oren̈\ \ 20 fizzïe \ 19 moon̈_ \ 15 pikḧq \ 13 wob_jonäs \ 11 Moon_̈_ \ 8 tsweẗt \ 7 quintopïa \ 7 moonythedwar̈f \ 7 moon_̈_ \
09:34:35 <shachaf> `` hoag | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
09:34:37 <HackEgo> 2407 oerjän \ 950 shachäf \ 614 ellioẗt \ 367 b_jonäs \ 272 boil̈y \ 265 hppavilion[1̈] \ 258 fizzïe \ 234 int-̈e \ 204 tsweẗt \ 187 Jafët \ 185 ais52̈3 \ 177 GreyKnigḧt \ 165 km̈c \ 142 Tanëb \ 138 Rouj̈o \ 117 zgrëp \ 107 moon̈_ \ 105 mromän \
09:35:15 <shachaf> oerjan: combining diaeresis doesn't seem to work very well with j tdnh
09:35:46 <shachaf> fizzie is said to be the king of #esoteric
09:35:57 <shachaf> And yet oerjan seems to be the king of HackEgo!
09:36:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Speaking of which, how's CA?
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10:14:19 <int-e> let me guess, this was a zero-width space before...
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11:37:46 <HackEgo> for further details.//See `? for further details for futher details.
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12:11:41 <HackEgo> space//Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it.
12:11:56 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/space
12:12:24 <boily> the culprits are now diæresed? I appröve.
12:19:36 <int-e> this channel is going to hëll
12:29:39 <boily> and fungot drives the barge.
12:29:58 <boily> wait. don't tell me nobody fungotted overnight and I'm still the last one who spoke to him?
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14:17:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49936&oldid=49891 * BlueOkiris * (+226) /* Op Codes */
14:18:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49937&oldid=49936 * BlueOkiris * (+42) /* Interpreter/Compiler */
14:26:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49938&oldid=49937 * BlueOkiris * (+292) /* Op Codes */
14:26:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49939&oldid=49938 * BlueOkiris * (+16) /* Interpreter/Compiler */
14:27:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49940&oldid=49939 * BlueOkiris * (-2) /* Op Codes */
14:30:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49941&oldid=49940 * BlueOkiris * (-185) /* Turing Completeness */
14:34:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49942&oldid=46604 * Malbranche * (-101) /* Store operation */ Optimized code
14:35:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49943&oldid=49941 * BlueOkiris * (+191) /* Example Programs */
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14:39:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49944&oldid=49923 * BlueOkiris * (+110) /* Implementations */
14:41:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49945&oldid=49944 * BlueOkiris * (-22) /* NOR */
14:41:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49946&oldid=49945 * BlueOkiris * (+14) /* NOR */
14:41:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49947&oldid=49946 * BlueOkiris * (-7) /* NOR */
14:48:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49948&oldid=49943 * BlueOkiris * (-31) /* Op Codes */
14:50:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49949&oldid=49948 * BlueOkiris * (-55) /* 1bit Adder.nor */
14:50:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49950&oldid=49949 * BlueOkiris * (-16) /* Infinite Loop.nor */
14:51:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49951&oldid=49950 * BlueOkiris * (-21) /* Truth Machine.nor */
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16:09:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49952&oldid=49951 * BlueOkiris * (+234) /* Truth Machine.nor */
16:13:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49953&oldid=49942 * Malbranche * (-1880) Hopefully made example easier to understand (meaningful labels and clarification of code section vs. trace)
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16:16:11 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: your hth script doesn't work on /quit hth hth <-- i noticed hth hth. also it behaves weird when triggering on the first message after joining hth
16:17:01 <Taneb> oerjan, what is your hth script?
16:21:46 <oerjan> it's a script elliott made that strips a final hth from a line hth
16:22:46 <oerjan> so whenever you see an hth at the end of my message it means i'm writing it twice hth
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16:23:03 <oerjan> (also applies to some other acronyms.)
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16:37:13 <b_jonas> `hth is this script available on hackego? hth
16:37:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hth: not found
16:38:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49954&oldid=49953 * Malbranche * (+43) /* Example: How to store the accumulator into memory (long) */ Bugfix in trace
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16:39:54 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's an irssi script
16:41:00 <oerjan> i suspect the api it calls isn't available in HackEgo :P
16:44:01 <FireFly> ...do you habitually append 'hth' enough that this script was necessary?
16:44:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: this is a good idea though
16:45:08 <b_jonas> maybe if I ever work on an irc client, I should delay lines that end in a slash or backslash, because those are often typos
16:45:28 <b_jonas> (slash is typo for a question mark, backslash is accidental hit when trying to hit enter)
16:47:11 <FireFly> for me that would be "isn" and other similar word fragments where I meant to hit ' but hit enter instead
16:59:04 <oerjan> FireFly: yep hth hth but it didn't really help for long hth
17:09:53 <oerjan> `` hoag | grep '<Rouj'
17:09:57 <HackEgo> <Rouj̈o> rm bin/f\x16\x16rink \ <Rouj̈o> echo "14484096/625 \\(exactly 23174.5536\\)" > bin/f\x16\x16rink \ <Rouj̈o> chmod +x bin/f\x16\x16rink \ <Rouj̈o> echo "14484096/625 (exactly 23174.5536)" > bin/f\x16\x16rink \ <Rouj̈o> echo "cf. elliott" > wisdom/godot \ <Rouj̈o> echo "c.f. elliott" > wisdom/godot \ <Rouj̈o> fetch https://dl.dropb
17:10:38 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: combining diaeresis doesn't seem to work very well with j tdnh <-- i don't see a problem but i guess it may break in some bad fonts?
17:14:08 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> let me guess, this was a zero-width space before... <-- ^O actually. anyway both options fail for some people's clients/terminals so i thought to try diaeresis instead.
17:17:09 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 58s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: your hth script doesn't work on /quit hth hth <-- i noticed hth hth. also it behaves weird when triggering on the first message after joining hth
17:17:09 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6m 31s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: combining diaeresis doesn't seem to work very well with j tdnh <-- i don't see a problem but i guess it may break in some bad fonts?
17:17:14 <shachaf> oerjan: I guess it's just my font.
17:19:03 <oerjan> hopefully it doesn't mess things up completely like NSWP did?
17:20:23 <oerjan> `` hoag | grep '<lifthr'
17:20:25 <HackEgo> <lifthrasiïr> ` (echo \'#!/bin/sh\'; echo \'echo Nice try.\') > bin/man && chmod a+x bin/man \ <lifthrasiïr> ` (echo \'#!/bin/sh\'; echo \'Nice try.\') > bin/man && chmod a+x bin/man \ <lifthrasiïr> ` (echo \'#!/bin/sh\'; echo \'echo Zarro Boogs Found.\') > bin/bugs; chmod a+x bin/bugs \ <lifthrasiïr> ` (echo \'#!/bin/sh\'; echo echo pun
17:20:35 <oerjan> shachaf: does i have the same problem ^
17:21:04 <\oren\> man I go conquer iran and i come back and this
17:21:26 <shachaf> oerjan: Actually it's only a problem on the computer where my terminal gets messed up.
17:21:36 <shachaf> On the other one it's handled correctly.
17:21:42 <oerjan> (have you considered fixing your computer)
17:21:58 <shachaf> It's only a problem on the one where it *doesn't* get messed up, I mean.
17:22:07 <\oren\> this looks fine in my font j̈
17:22:45 <int-e> I thought the 2 in ais523 looked worst of the bunch I saw earlier
17:25:08 <\oren\> zhe li de sha yu bu chu yu zhe li de sha yu bu hu shi zhe li de sha yu xiao xi xi da la di da di da di da di da di
17:25:33 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/s0mXCnzisV4
17:26:30 <int-e> > var "ais52\x308\&3"
17:26:58 <oerjan> to me the 2 looks almost normal
17:27:16 <oerjan> as in, the dots overlap and nearly merge with the upper arc
17:27:36 <shachaf> It looks great on this computer.
17:28:51 <int-e> wait why does firefox put the diaeresis on top of the 3 here... or is xterm wrong here?
17:28:53 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure there's a difference.
17:29:13 <HackEgo> [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE]
17:29:27 <int-e> postfix or prefix, that's the question
17:29:49 <\oren\> I have a diaresis on the two
17:30:51 <oerjan> int-e: pretty sure it's supposed to be postfix
17:31:41 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/x308.png
17:32:11 <int-e> (the shape is not affected by the selection)
17:33:05 <int-e> hmm, I could try with a different font, maybe?
17:33:37 <oerjan> well, IE puts it between the chars.
17:34:12 <oerjan> (in the tunes logs. it's in the right place when e.g. on the google bar.)
17:34:48 <\oren\> https://postimg.org/image/dwp6fbet1/
17:35:14 <oerjan> in fact currently the google bar is my go to place whenever i need to put a unicode modifier on something, because in irssi it is impossible to edit it separately from the preceding character
17:35:50 <\oren\> I just use the unicode hex input
17:37:44 <int-e> yeah, it depends on the font... which of course doesn't necessarily mean that it's a font issue.
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17:38:22 <int-e> (it could be freetype or pango or whatever interpreting some metrics in the wrong way)
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17:41:19 <oerjan> \oren\: i refuse to memorize hex codes for such things :P
17:41:31 <HackEgo> hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/g'
17:42:08 <oerjan> `sled bin/hlnp//s,/g,/,
17:42:10 <HackEgo> bin/hlnp//hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
17:42:40 <oerjan> i just realized that in all the uses we have, the nick is the first thing with <> in so g is useless.
17:42:48 <HackEgo> <oerjän> slwd ../test//1ahi \ <oerjän> mk test//huh \ <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <oerjän> mk test//ha \ <oerjän> mk test//ho \ <oerjän> mk test//,[.,] \ <oerjän> mk test//++++++++[->++++++++<]>. \ <oerjän> mk test//+[[-]<+++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----] \ <oer
17:43:30 <oerjan> or _do_ we want to apply noping to other <...> instances in the command?
17:44:01 <oerjan> they may not be nicks, but also might be. although probably mostly for quotes.
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17:56:18 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> wait. don't tell me nobody fungotted overnight and I'm still the last one who spoke to him? <-- . o O ( hah no one else _ever_ will ... oh crap )
17:56:18 <fungot> oerjan: some kind of html where all the instructions a-z. i get the source
17:57:16 <oerjan> some jokes need to made even if they don't make chronological sense
18:00:27 <\oren\> I for one, like roman numerals
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18:02:18 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( The citizens of #esoteric live under the constant threat of Swatular Annihilation )
18:03:09 <int-e> oerjan: you could've used a privmsg ;-)
18:03:28 <int-e> also, fungot can be bfuscated.
18:03:50 <oerjan> of course. and all that would ruin the joke.
18:04:16 <int-e> oerjan: tbh there wasn't much substance to ruin there in the first place
18:07:44 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: the context was that I for one, like roman numerals
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18:13:45 <\oren\> so far I've been unable to get it into the unifont guy's head that his font is bad and he should fel bad
18:14:46 * oerjan refuses to spell out the obvious joke
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18:16:31 <\oren\> https://postimg.org/image/ppcdir051/
18:18:03 <\oren\> a lot of the symbols are drawn as twice as wide as they shoudl be causing them to overlap each other
18:18:25 <\oren\> and this guy won't admit that that is an actual problem
18:19:12 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And I suppose neoletters has no such issue?
18:20:08 <\oren\> actually I should send him that screenshot to show
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18:21:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6d 17h 42m 12s ago: HackEgo's share/UnicodeData.txt is still the newest from unicode.org
18:22:43 <\oren\> lambadabot, how do it work
18:25:21 <lambdabot> CYYZ 131700Z 30015G24KT 15SM FEW030 BKN040 13/03 A3013 RMK CU2SC4 SLP206
18:25:41 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Hackego should be able to print multiple lines on command )
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18:35:36 <\oren\> `` loud | orenbow <<<"hello"
18:35:37 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: loud: command not found \ [1m[31mh[33me[32ml[36ml[34mo[35m
18:35:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: loud: not found
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18:36:58 <\oren\> `` loudly | orenbow <<<"testing"
18:37:37 <\oren\> `` loudly testing | orenbow <<<"testing"
18:37:38 <HackEgo> close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr \ [1m[31mt[33me[32ms[36mt[34mi[35mn[31mg[33m
18:38:33 <\oren\> `` orenbow <<<"oerjän"
18:38:33 <HackEgo> [1m[31mo[33me[32mr[36mj[34ma[35m̈[31mn[33m
18:39:15 <\oren\> `` orenbow <<<"ais52̈3"
18:39:16 <HackEgo> [1m[31ma[33mi[32ms[36m5[34m2[35m̈[31m3[33m
18:39:44 <\oren\> awww I was hoping the diacritic woudl end up a diferent colr
18:42:09 <APic> Is not every Colour different from each other Colour?
18:42:18 <APic> Laser-Wavelenghts and Quantum-Perception and Stuff…
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19:33:09 <hppavilion[1]> He said something weird. I should tell you about it sometime.
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19:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> Out of the first 32 numbers it generates for me in the range 0..2**24 inclusive, #4, #13, and #22 are all prime
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20:04:06 <shachaf> fizzie: are you in MTV twh hand
20:06:40 <\oren\> Rail is on sale by the pail
20:08:03 <int-e> And b and h work too.
20:08:27 -!- otherbot has quit (Quit: Restart requested by jeffl35: uh oh).
20:08:29 <\oren\> tried to shoot a whale in a gale. hit my own sail.
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20:11:14 <\oren\> man my ₩ isn't very recognizable
20:12:16 <\oren\> does darth vader yell NEIEEEEEEEEEEEEN
20:12:21 <myname> do you understand enough?
20:13:02 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBb4yoUfrFY
20:13:31 <int-e> What about a holding a sail sale in a hale hail; then a pale male could mail the sail to Cale...
20:14:32 <int-e> And then there's shale ale.
20:14:51 <\oren\> I wanted to use the word dale but i can't rember what it means
20:15:04 <int-e> (I think it's time to end this tale.)
20:15:22 <myname> hppavilion[1]: then you aren't watching, you are going to watch?
20:15:26 <int-e> (Despite not having used "tail")
20:17:33 <int-e> fungot: do you like jail?
20:17:34 <fungot> int-e: ( sandbox.scm, line 166) syntax error illegal non-atomic object: () is confusing
20:17:43 <int-e> (I guess that's a no)
20:18:00 <\oren\> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html
20:18:36 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you read olist?
20:18:42 <\oren\> not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale
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20:18:58 <int-e> (it's one of those words that I'm not sure I've ever heard spoken aloud...)
20:19:10 <\oren\> and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail.
20:20:40 <int-e> pure pottery... err poetry.
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20:21:33 <int-e> \oren\: (there's a specail hell for people like you (well, us))
20:21:47 <wob_jonas> Hehehe, the description of this product on ebay explicitly says "converse : 1 inch = 2.54cm or 1cm = 0.393 inch" just in case you don't know that
20:22:15 <int-e> > 1/2.54 -- didn't know that
20:22:21 <wob_jonas> http://www.ebay.com/itm/58mm-Cool-Circular-Polarizing-UV-Filter-Lens-Protector-For-Canon-Nikon-18-55mm/401095336640
20:22:39 <int-e> I'll have to deduct points for improper rounding
20:23:35 <shachaf> i,i "When I was studying with Master Wu, I learned that his grandmother believed in a truly enormous collection of hells. In her mind the netherworld was like a great vizier’s palace or hall of government, and every floor was given over to a different aspect of suffering. There was a Hell of Crawling Flies and a Hell of Scratchy Undergarments and a Hell of Lukewarm Soup and just about every hell, howev
20:23:41 <shachaf> er vile or trivial, that you could ...
20:23:43 <shachaf> ... imagine. There was a Hell of Standing in Line and a Hell of Loneliness and a Hell of Chattering Neighbours and a Hell of Silent Grief, all the way to a Hell of Boiling Pitch and a Hell of Smashed Fingers and other hells she declined to detail but delineated with significant noddings and rolling of eyes. These hells were arranged in no apparent order (except for a sequence of hells defined by their or
20:23:45 <\oren\> the rounding is proper this way around
20:23:49 <shachaf> derliness), presided over by guards of ...
20:23:52 <shachaf> ... utmost probity and administered by sadists and reformers and all manner of intransigent folk, who absolutely would not be deterred from hauling or heaving or leading or shoving you into your appointed hell. There was even a Hell of Uncertain Anticipation where you simply sat around waiting to find out which hell you were eventually going to. For ever."
20:23:59 <shachaf> That's much longer than I thought it was.
20:24:07 <wob_jonas> \oren\: that doesn't matter, because 1 in = 2.54 m is exact
20:24:17 <int-e> wtf is "i,i" about
20:24:36 <\oren\> i assumed it was an obscure vi command?
20:24:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: it might be.
20:25:08 <shachaf> I,I looks like an owl face to me.
20:25:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: but then it looks really odd here (i has serifs)
20:26:00 <\oren\> nooooo they be stealin my bikkit
20:26:20 <wob_jonas> int-e: well it's an ascii smiley, don't take the look too precisely
20:26:45 <int-e> wob_jonas: I've never like the horizontal smileys very much tbh.
20:26:52 <\oren\> http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/000/026/lolrus.jpg
20:27:16 <int-e> though the simple ones like o.O kind of work for me.
20:27:37 <shachaf> int-e: "I,I" means approximately ". o O ( )", I think.
20:27:50 <shachaf> It stands for something like "I have no point, I just want to say".
20:30:08 <\oren\> nothing in particular i'm just playing around
20:30:10 <int-e> "look I'm too cool for :-)"
20:32:13 <int-e> @google "When I was studying with Master Wu"
20:32:14 <lambdabot> http://www.rulit.me/books/the-gone-away-world-read-423517-44.html
20:32:14 <lambdabot> Title: Читать онлайн "The Gone-Away World" автора Harkaway Nick - ...
20:32:51 <int-e> (it's a transcription of "online" into russian)
20:33:46 <int-e> (and "Читать" is "to read", so the first two words mean "read online")
20:34:08 <\oren\> so the first link is a pirate one? nice
20:34:33 <\oren\> .me domain, russian, "read online"
20:34:54 <\oren\> I love russian websites
20:45:24 <int-e> for me it was the second find... the first one was amazon
20:50:25 <hppavilion[1]> Are gender-specific middle names typically tied to the person's gender?
20:50:49 <hppavilion[1]> Like, would it be weird for a girl to have middle name "James" or boy middle name "Alice"?
20:50:50 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], mostly
20:51:10 <Taneb> Sometimes people get middle names that are family names that also happen to be first names for a different gendert
20:51:33 <izalove> https://ng-developer.itch.io/nitrux
20:54:16 <wob_jonas> hpp: that depends on the culture or nation
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20:54:54 <wob_jonas> when Hungarian people get middle names, they're handled exactly like first names, that is, they're required to match the gender
20:56:05 <wob_jonas> and the Academy simply doesn't allow any first names for Hungarians that aren't gender-specific, though of course some nicknames (which aren't registered in official documents) are unspecific
20:56:41 <wob_jonas> (about the most common nickname that isn't tied to gender is Gabi)
21:00:29 <wob_jonas> but only few people have middle names, and even fewer people actually use them. a middle name is mostly just a useful alternative for people who prefer it to their first name.
21:00:56 <wob_jonas> also, nobody gets hyphenated first names
21:01:03 <Taneb> I barely use my middle name
21:01:17 <wob_jonas> (although some people have hyphenated last names, but the hyphen doesn't really mean anything, it's sort of random)
21:01:24 <Taneb> My "Ngevd" username is pretty much it
21:01:40 <Taneb> (the G and I guess the E come from my middle name)
21:21:20 <\oren\> I have the middle name Isaac but i raerely us it
21:24:15 <\oren\> oren is a much rarer name anyway
21:24:36 <\oren\> there are far more people named isaac watson
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21:52:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Evo-psych; the evolutionary explanation for why we have particular instincts and habits
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21:53:36 <myname> why do you think there has to be one?
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22:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> In languages where æ (ae) is a common symbol, how is it handwritten? I've never been able to tell.
22:07:50 <myname> that actually is a good question since my handwritten a is nowhere near what fonts present as an a
22:09:20 <hppavilion[1]> In neoletters (\oren\), a is single-story (like most people handwrite), but æ is double-story (computery weird one) (mashed together with e, of course) (it's really thin though, sticking to monospace, so it might be practical)
22:10:39 <hppavilion[1]> (I feel like there needs to be a double-story capital G and A (or make the existing ones double-story and have a separate single-story), just for consistency)
22:11:36 <hppavilion[1]> My father, apparently, managed to consciously change his handwriting to do double-story a (rather than handwritten), just because he wanted it to be different
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22:12:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Apparently that runs in the family. I recently started forcing myself to hook small 't's and 'l's after my friend mentioned SHE was doing the same with her 't's to make it more distinguishable from '+')
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22:28:32 <izalove> suppose you're a compiler writer and you're writing a compiler for a language X
22:29:19 <izalove> there are a bunch of advanced X users and a bunch of noob X users
22:29:39 <izalove> which people do you want to optimize for?
22:30:03 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Both; have a --i-am-good-at-this flag in the compiler
22:30:24 <izalove> but that'd be a waste of time for well written code
22:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> (Note that it isn't an --i-am-bad-at-this flag, because they don't know how flags work and probably have their IDE run it for them, no idea what's even going on)
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22:31:47 <hppavilion[1]> (Idea: Lettersmith; system for arbitrarily creating new Latin-type letters at will for math)
22:56:38 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( The Customary System unit of force should be the Kenobi )
22:57:26 <hppavilion[1]> I wish we could at the very LEAST get the US to switch to a yard-pound-second metric system
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23:21:08 <oerjan> oh clog has disappeared
23:22:07 <oerjan> although if i'm not mistaken, only about 10 minutes ago
23:22:25 <shachaf> 15:18 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
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23:22:28 <Taneb> Yeah, I get 23:18:50 (GMT)
23:23:12 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, the triverse, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
23:24:25 <oerjan> shachaf: i think you may have added that.
23:24:30 <shachaf> `` dowg tanebvention | grep triverse
23:24:31 <HackEgo> 2016-10-10 <hppavilion[1̈]> ` sed -i \'s#the universe, #the universe, the triverse, #\' wisdom/tanebvention
23:24:46 <shachaf> oerjan: i take offense to that hth
23:24:54 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry, you added another one.
23:25:05 -!- augur has joined.
23:25:06 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special relativity#
23:25:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
23:25:10 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep xford
23:25:12 <HackEgo> 2016-10-10 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#and#the Oxford comma, and#
23:25:30 <oerjan> also an even earlier which i exterminated hth
23:26:22 <HackEgo> 1/12:` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardswort
23:26:36 <shachaf> we could use your cleanup skills twh
23:27:21 <HackEgo> fizzïe jeffl3̈5 tsweẗt tsweẗt oerjän ellioẗt ais52̈3 ais52̈3 c00kiemon5tër c00kiemon5tër
23:27:38 <oerjan> `` dowg bin/aseen | tac
23:27:48 <oerjan> `` doag bin/aseen | tac
23:27:49 <HackEgo> 2013-01-22 <c00kiemon5tër> mv fLKT bin/aseen && chmod 755 bin/aseen \ 2013-01-22 <c00kiemon5tër> sed -i \'s/^n=.*/&; n="${n,,}"/\' bin/aseen \ 2013-02-13 <ais52̈3> revert 3 \ 2013-02-13 <ais52̈3> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ 2014-03-16 <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ 2014-03-16 <oerjän> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> rm bin -r \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> rever
23:28:05 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env bash \ n="<${1% }>"; n="${n,,}" \ while ((i++ < 30)) && read -r file \ do awk -vf="${file##*/}" -vn="$n" 'tolower($2) ~ n{x=$0} END{if(!x) exit 1; print f,x}' "$file" && exit; \ done < <(ls -r /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt) \ echo "not lately"
23:28:22 <HackEgo> #! /usr/bin/env perl \ ($n,$e)=split /\s+/, join(" ",@ARGV); $n=~s/ *$//; $c="ls -r /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt"; $c.=" | head -n 30" unless $e eq "ever"; @f=split /\s+/, `$c`; for $f (@f) { open F,"<$f"; @l=grep(/^..:..:..: <$n>/i,<F>); close F; if (@l) { $b=$f; $b=~s#.*/(.*?).txt#$1#; print "$b $l[-1]"; exit 1; } } print $e eq "ever
23:29:02 <shachaf> `` for b in bin/*; do doag "$b" | head -n1; done | sort
23:29:17 <HackEgo> bienvenido "$@" | rainwords
23:31:34 <oerjan> `mkx bin/randbin//ls -1 bin | shuf -1
23:31:38 <shachaf> `` for b in bin/{a,b,c,d,e}*; do doag "$b" | head -n1; done >> tmp/bin
23:31:40 <HackEgo> shuf: invalid option -- '1' \ Try `shuf --help' for more information.
23:31:50 <oerjan> `mkx bin/randbin//ls -1 bin | shuf -n 1
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23:32:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr \)\( \(\)
23:33:28 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl3̈5> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> rm bin -r \ 2014-03-16 <oerjän> revert \ 2014-03-16 <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ 2013-06-20 <guestböt> cp bin/emoclew bin/wow
23:33:53 <HackEgo> 2013-06-20 <guestböt> cp bin/emoclew bin/wow \ 2014-03-16 <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ 2014-03-16 <oerjän> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> rm bin -r \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> revert \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl3̈5> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 58b9ee8f97a7
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23:34:15 <oerjan> `` diff bin/{wow,emoclew}
23:34:16 <HackEgo> 2c2 \ < welcome "$@" | rev | tr \)\( \(\) \ --- \ > welcome "$@" | rev | tr '()<>[]{}' ')(><][}{'
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23:35:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm too lazy to go through all of bin/ but random amortized might work.
23:35:34 <izalove> we want smileys to keep smiling
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23:35:58 <oerjan> izalove: no, because it also reverts order of : and )
23:36:37 <shachaf> Why doesn't randbin print the contents?
23:36:38 <izalove> that turns (foo bar baz) to )foo bar baz(
23:36:45 <HackEgo> f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooodl
23:36:46 <oerjan> shachaf: because i'm lazy
23:36:56 <oerjan> izalove: you are missing the rev |
23:37:19 <oerjan> also, it only does the welcome message anyway, which has no smileys.
23:37:37 <shachaf> `` cp bin/{wisdom,randbin}; sled 'bin/randbin//s#wisdom#bin#g'
23:37:39 <HackEgo> bin/randbin//f=$(find bin -ipath "bin/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#bin/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooooodl
23:37:42 <HackEgo> google//#!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Google what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ tail -n 2
23:37:47 <shachaf> oerjan: not lazy enough hth
23:39:06 <HackEgo> sport//distort "${1:-/dev/stdin}" | spore
23:39:07 <oerjan> shachaf: but what about binary files, that's scow to print hth
23:39:13 <shachaf> The trouble is -- yes, that.
23:40:54 <shachaf> `mkx bin/randbin//grep '' "$(ls -1 bin | shuf -n 1)"
23:41:00 <HackEgo> grep: ?h: No such file or directory
23:41:11 <shachaf> `mkx bin/randbin//grep '' bin/"$(ls -1 bin | shuf -n 1)"
23:41:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ n=$1 \ if [ "$((n+0))" != "$n" ]; then n=15; fi \ allquotes | shuf -n $n | paste
23:41:34 <shachaf> That would prefix each line anyway. Too scow.
23:41:52 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:41:59 <HackEgo> grep: quørjan: No such file or directory
23:42:15 <shachaf> You can't revert with negative relative indices?
23:42:19 <shachaf> I thought there was some way to do it.
23:42:32 <shachaf> How do I revert two revisions without looking at the bwe page?
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23:43:59 <oerjan> shachaf: wait, `revert -2 works?
23:44:17 <shachaf> I thought something like it did but I might be wrong.
23:44:31 <shachaf> How do I undo my recent randbin changes without checking the web page?
23:44:40 <oerjan> don't ask me, you're the `hg expert
23:44:44 <hppavilion[1]> Passkey: A subset of passcodes, specifically in the case where it is used to decrypt encrypted media where the password itself forms the key (or part of the key where the rest is derived from the password or constant)
23:44:45 <HackEgo> changeset: 9267:988382c4c500 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Oct 13 22:41:19 2016 +0000 \ summary: <shachaf> revert -2 \ \ changeset: 9266:7ae374d8d999 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Oct 13 22:40:40 2016 +0000 \ summary: <shachaf> mkx bin/randbin//grep \'\' bin/"$(ls -1 bin | shuf -n 1)" \ \ cha
23:45:06 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep changeset
23:45:07 <HackEgo> changeset: 9267:988382c4c500 \ changeset: 9266:7ae374d8d999 \ changeset: 9265:d32852713e15 \ changeset: 9264:119c0d818128 \ changeset: 9263:576a3c528f0c \ changeset: 9262:cd07b743b78b \ changeset: 9261:cf480536b46e \ changeset: 9260:4d2897f5c0fe \ changeset: 9259:bc166c3e1a87 \ changeset: 9258:f9e10a23d727 \ changeset: 9257:3d
23:45:24 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:45:31 <shachaf> Maybe it just acted as a regular revert.
23:50:05 <HackEgo> grep: ?hh: No such file or directory
23:50:11 <hppavilion[1]> On one hand, I feel like having 50 different writing systems (as in Japanese) makes things unnecessarily complicated
23:50:14 <HackEgo> grep '' "$(ls -1 bin | shuf -n 1)"
23:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> OTOH, I feel like english is missing out having only one
23:50:43 <oerjan> `mkx bin/randbin//grep -z '' bin/"$(ls -1 bin | shuf -n 1)"
23:50:48 <HackEgo> echo lambdabot: @metar $1 \ .
23:51:36 <oerjan> `mkx bin/randbin//grep -Hz '' bin/"$(ls -1 bin | shuf -n 1)"
23:51:40 <HackEgo> bin/quonoid:quote monoid \ .
23:52:20 <oerjan> hm that remain \0 is a bit ugly
23:53:09 <HackEgo> f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooodl
23:53:51 <oerjan> `` cp bin/{wisdom,randbin}; sled 'bin/randbin//s#wisdom#bin#g'
23:53:53 <HackEgo> bin/randbin//f=$(find bin -ipath "bin/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#bin/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnoooooodl
23:54:54 <oerjan> `sled bin/randbin//s/cat/grep ''/
23:54:56 <HackEgo> bin/randbin//f=$(find bin -ipath "bin/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#bin/}//"; grep '' "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooodl
23:55:01 <HackEgo> noping//print_args_or_input "$@" | sed 's/\(..\)/\1/g'
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23:55:33 <HackEgo> bin/7za \ bin/ciol \ bin/dao \ bin/delvs \ bin/emmental \ bin/fortune \ bin/fueue \ bin/grph \ bin/jq \ bin/lua \ bin/luac \ bin/macro \ bin/morse-decode \ bin/noooodl: \ bin/orenbow.raw \ bin/piglatin \ bin/pikhqbow \ bin/ploki \ bin/q \ bin/rot0 \ bin/rot256 \ bin/rot26 \ bin/scrip7 \ bin/searchlog \ bin/something \ bin/tclkit \ bin/u8tbl.exe \ b
23:55:40 <HackEgo> fortune//Binary file bin/fortune matches
23:55:57 <HackEgo> randbin//f=$(find bin -ipath "bin/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#bin/}//"; grep '' "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooooodl
23:57:13 <shachaf> `` mkx 'bin/Binary//echo "$@"'; mkx 'bin/binary//Binary file bin/binary matches'
23:57:23 <HackEgo> binary//Binary file bin/binary matches
23:58:01 <shachaf> fizzie is silent as the grave
23:58:39 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
23:59:10 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Are there any truly esoteric systems of writing that aren't Alphabets, Abjads, Syllabarries/Abugidas, or Logographeries? )
23:59:14 <HackEgo> mislearn//#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"tmflry/$topic" \ echo "Was lied to about '$topic': $1"
23:59:33 <shachaf> I've half a mind to just delete tomfoolery/.
00:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> I WOULD like to see a logographic system for English. THAT would be a fun way to mess with people.
00:02:42 <pikhq> "Kanji work for you? I think so."
00:03:02 <shachaf> see http://www.zompist.com/yingzi/yingzi.htm hth
00:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> (There would certainly have to be calligraphic variants on logical symbols- ∧ and ∨)
00:06:11 <oerjan> `sled bin/randbin//s/wise/binary/
00:06:13 <HackEgo> bin/randbin//f=$(find bin -ipath "bin/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#bin/}//"; grep '' "$f"; else echo "That's not binary."; fi | rnooodl
00:07:51 <HackEgo> rnooooodl//perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
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00:11:09 <HackEgo> ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው።
00:11:40 <oerjan> `` grep '' wisdom/* | grep Binary
00:11:48 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/canary matches \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
00:11:59 <oerjan> `` rgrep '' wisdom/* | grep Binary
00:12:01 <HackEgo> Binary file wisdom/canary matches \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
00:12:14 <HackEgo> âELF...........>.....H@.....@.......p¶..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø................. ...8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....¦......¦........ ............°......°a.....°a.....Ì......P........ ...........È......Èa.....Èa........................ ..
00:12:35 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/canary
00:12:36 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Dec 9 2015 wisdom/canary -> ../canary
00:12:52 <HackEgo> <moonythedwar̈f> ` mv ls canary \ <oerjän> revert \ <oerjän> sled canary//crabbit \ <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <int-̈e> ` echo -n ribbit > canary \ <b_jonäs> `` echo -n > canary \ <b_jonäs> `` rm canary && mkdir canary \ <shachäf> mk canary//cat: canary: No such file or directory \ <shachäf> rm
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00:13:03 <HackEgo> 2016-10-05 <moonythedwar̈f> ` mv ls canary \ 2016-09-26 <oerjän> revert \ 2016-09-26 <oerjän> sled canary//crabbit \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-08-02 <int-̈e> ` echo -n ribbit > canary \ 2016-06-07 <b_jonäs> `` echo -n > canary \ 2016-06-07 <b_jonäs> `` rm canary && mkdir ca
00:13:23 <HackEgo> 2016-10-05 <moonythedwar̈f> ` mv ls canary \ 2016-07-02 <izaber̈a> ` dd bs=1 seek=7 conv=notrunc count=1 of=ls 2>/dev/null <<< $\'\\3\'; file ls \ 2016-07-02 <izaber̈a> ` cp /bin/ls .; file ls
00:17:51 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> srsly how do it work <-- edit distance <=2 with unambiguous closest match, or exact prefix hth
00:23:10 <HackEgo> [U+0391 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA]
00:30:16 <oerjan> `` loudly testing | orenbow <<<"testing"
00:30:17 <HackEgo> close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr \ [1m[31mt[33me[32ms[36mt[34mi[35mn[31mg[33m
00:30:36 <oerjan> how is that even going to work
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00:30:50 <oerjan> `` loudly testing | orenbow.raw testing
00:30:51 <HackEgo> [1m[31m[33m0[32m4[36m,[34m0[35m9[31mt[33m[32m0[36m9[34m,[35m0[31m4[33me[32m[36m0[34m4[35m,[31m0[33m9[32ms[36m[34m0[35m9[31m,[33m0[32m4[36mt[34m[35m0[31m4[33m,[32m0[36m9[34mi[35m[31m0[33m9[32m,[36m0[34m4[35mn[31m[33m0[32m4[36m,[34m0[35m9[31mg[33m
00:31:09 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | orenbow.raw
00:31:44 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ you may have missed that i changed your bin/orenbow earlier.
00:32:22 <HackEgo> lifthrasiir's font//lifthrasiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png
00:33:19 <oerjan> `` loudly testing | orenbow.raw <<<'testing'
00:33:20 <HackEgo> [1m[31mt[33me[32ms[36mt[34mi[35mn[31mg[33m
00:34:32 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ although i still don't see how your experiments could work.
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00:37:22 <oerjan> `learn The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they'd ever got around to it.
00:37:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'procrasti': The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they'd ever got around to it.
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00:41:10 <hppavilion[1]> Proposal: NoSpacesNoPuntuationCapitalizeWords shall be referred to as "Bactrian CamelCase" in speech, noSpacesNoPuntuationCapitalizeNoninitialWords is "Dromedary camelCase"
00:41:50 <oerjan> seeing int-e reinvent hppavilion[1]'s rhymes in the log because he only sees \oren\'s...
00:43:33 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, in Norwegian <-- Bruk Krafta, Luke!
00:43:49 <oerjan> (alas, norwegians aren't big on dubbing.)
00:44:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Star wars dubs fairly well, due to half of the characters lacking mouths
00:44:45 <oerjan> Eg hev ei dårlig kjensle om dette...
00:46:11 <oerjan> (nynorsk is a bit different)
00:46:32 <oerjan> NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEI
00:49:09 <FireFly> You're in Trondheim, yes? so bokmål should be your native kind of norwegian?
00:49:21 <FireFly> IIRC nynorsk is mostly in the southwestern parts
00:49:26 <oerjan> well i'm not _from_ trondheim but still yes.
00:49:35 <FireFly> Right, but I don't know where you're from :p
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00:53:18 <oerjan> Du finn aldri eit verre bol av avskum og ondskap. Vi må vere varsame.
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00:54:25 <oerjan> (curiously nynorsk is often closer to swedish than bokmål is)
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01:54:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49955&oldid=49952 * BlueOkiris * (-152) /* Op Codes */
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02:16:36 <hppavilion[1]> I love how Multivac is an uber-advanced computer that figured out how to build a Dyson Sphere
02:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> You can have RAID, you can have Recursive RAID (not an example of RAS Syndrome, aamof), you can have Doubly-Recursive RAID
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02:24:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49956&oldid=49955 * BlueOkiris * (-26) /* Interpreter/Compiler */
02:29:04 <hppavilion[1]> `learn A restaurant is a type of transactional resource-distributing system powered by lazy evaluation.
02:29:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'restaurant': A restaurant is a type of transactional resource-distributing system powered by lazy evaluation.
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02:39:58 <oerjan> `learn i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and want to distract myself by saying"
02:40:00 <HackEgo> Relearned 'i,i': i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and want to distract myself by saying"
02:40:47 <oerjan> `learn i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and want to distract myself by saying".
02:40:49 <HackEgo> Relearned 'i,i': i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and want to distract myself by saying".
02:41:42 <oerjan> `learn i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying".
02:41:44 <HackEgo> Relearned 'i,i': i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying".
02:45:49 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Are gender-specific middle names typically tied to the person's gender? <-- maria is an exception in some catholic countries.
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02:54:31 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_(given_name)#As_male_middle_name
03:09:52 <fizzie> shachaf: I had this training thing.
03:10:09 <fizzie> I'm still in CA but not MTV.
03:10:33 <fizzie> I don't know, I can see the ocean.
03:10:45 <fizzie> Something starting with P.
03:11:42 <fizzie> That's confidential, I think.
03:12:10 <fizzie> I'm getting back to MTV in an hour though.
03:12:45 <shachaf> Are we doing this #esoteric meeting thing?
03:12:59 <shachaf> pikhq is in CO unfortunately.
03:13:23 <pikhq> I'm quite liking it here, though!
03:14:03 <shachaf> pikhq enjoys the absence of fizzie.
03:14:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have the energy for that sort of thing, at least today. It's been a long day. And I'm flying back tomorrow.
03:14:52 <shachaf> You're only in CA for two days?
03:16:16 <fizzie> Was jetlagged Monday, team dinner Tuesday, and here in Pescadero yesterday and today.
03:17:24 <fizzie> And now I need to catch a bus.
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04:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god spanish 'j' is the velar fricative [x], not the glottal fricative [h]. I've been lied to all these years.
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05:51:06 <fizzie> TIL: the proper way to describe flying back from a different airport than you flew in to is to say the journey includes a "surface sector".
05:53:14 <\oren\> I once flew into haneda and out by narita
05:53:35 <\oren\> becuase that was cheaper for some reason
05:53:51 <shachaf> fizzie: isn't #trains a better channel for that hth
05:54:38 <fizzie> But it's a plane, not a train.
05:55:02 <fizzie> I had something to say about trains the other day, but I forget what it was.s
05:55:15 <\oren\> fizzie: what if you take a flight to one city, a train to another, and then a fight back?
05:55:48 <fizzie> I did in fact take the BART + Caltrain combo to get here from the first airport.
05:57:36 <\oren\> e.g., what if I fly to london, take a train to warsaw, and fly back?
05:57:52 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Will you be making a pact while you're there?
05:58:02 <\oren\> er, I guess that would take several trains
05:58:54 <fizzie> You will probably need at least three trains.
05:59:11 <pikhq> Unless the dirty communists built a secret tunnel to London.
06:02:03 <fizzie> We once took a single train from Copenhagen to Amsterdam.
06:02:23 <fizzie> It's a three-country train, which I think is p. nice.
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06:07:11 <fizzie> Huh, does that train no longer exit? That's scow if so.
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06:23:58 <shachaf> copumpkin: how's the jailbreak doing?
06:44:09 <hppavilion[1]> Henceforth, temperatures shall be given in radians.
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08:08:38 <shachaf> or is it two hyperthreaded cpus
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08:20:26 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Wait, no, this feels more Minsky because of ?options, so it's technically impossible )
08:29:03 <imode> welp. apparently the great barrier reef is dead.
08:37:10 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: In Chrome's case, it's just "have there been more than 20 redirects".
08:37:35 <fizzie> The comment says "Same number as gecko", so Firefox may do the same.
08:41:16 <imode> http://www.outsideonline.com/2112086/obituary-great-barrier-reef-25-million-bc-2016
08:41:24 <imode> take it with a grain of salt.
08:41:35 <imode> have a feeling it's just a call to action.
08:42:13 <imode> it definitely reads like one.
08:43:52 <imode> not me, I ain't buyin' a ticket.
08:44:01 * imode hurls a drumset off a ledge.
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08:48:51 <imode> it's gif, not jif.
08:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: But we can all agree it's 't. x. t.', I hope?
08:51:35 <hppavilion[1]> (I've never HEARD anyone say .[tɛkst], but you never know...)
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08:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> Though, really, the pronunciation I use when discussing format (not as an extension) is actually "G. I. F."
08:52:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: nah, that doesn't compress well and also can't represent paletted images or images with 16 bit per channel per pixel depth
08:53:07 <shachaf> gif with a g is the good pronunciation hth
08:53:07 <hppavilion[1]> Like "FBI", "CIA", and "NSA', not like "NASA", "NATO", or "IRS"
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08:53:57 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: wait, isn't IRS pronounces ai arr ess?
08:54:15 <hppavilion[1]> But really, I like [ʒɪf] because it sounds all french and snobby; you can correct people when they say [dʒɪf] thinking it's the same
08:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> (You know what? Maybe we should declare 'gsf' for 'graphic sequence format' to be a synonym- preferred- for 'gif' and end this terrible, terrible war)
08:56:00 <shachaf> \oren\: i was talking about the second g in gigantic, of course
08:56:15 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
08:56:24 <\oren\> GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
08:56:34 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: how about an image format aka aif?
08:57:03 <\oren\> I have the repeat rate on my keyboard set high so I can wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww really fast
08:57:10 <hppavilion[1]> But now that I've said it, I kind of want to start calling jpg [jeɪpɛg]
08:57:53 <shachaf> the group of experts in joint photography
08:58:02 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: ... that's how I've always said it. what crazy way have you been doing
08:59:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: [dʒeɪpɛg], like the english letter j [dʒeɪ]
09:00:48 <\oren\> trolololo lololo lololo
09:01:15 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ...I kind of guessed that 'oren' was a Norwegian name for some reason. Association with 'oerjan' probably.
09:02:14 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: no, I'm mostly slavic on one side and vaguely canadian on the other
09:03:04 <\oren\> as in, my dad is descended from some of the first european people to settle in canada
09:03:05 <hppavilion[1]> (dammit, rtl. I tried to paste it and nothing appeared... because it was on the opposite side)
09:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It means 'ash' or 'pine', so you could also just be æ (ash) :P
09:04:57 <\oren\> note that although my birth certificate says Oren, i sometimes arbitrarily spell it orin
09:05:28 <\oren\> it's a good idea to misspell your name a lot to throw the illuminati off your trail
09:05:41 <shachaf> I would prefer that you did that more.
09:05:49 <hppavilion[1]> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oren, it's somehow associated with the name "Shahaf" in a way I cannot deduce
09:06:06 * hppavilion[1] obtains lead foil hat, as tinfoil will not be strong enough
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09:06:56 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I think that's just a copypaste induced error on wikipedia
09:07:30 <shachaf> I cannot deduce it either.
09:09:23 <\oren\> I should do more arbitrary mispellings. judging by census records, my ancestors were either doing it on purpose or largely illiterate. or both.
09:09:52 <\oren\> at least seven different spellings occur in the same census year
09:11:05 <\oren\> everything from clemens to mccllements
09:12:21 <shachaf> \oren\: that's a bug and you should fix it twh
09:12:33 <shachaf> it's obviously just copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahaf
09:15:10 <\oren\> and of course there are obvious lies on the census implying a kid aged from 2 to 19 in 10 years, and implying 140 year old people etc
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09:16:32 <\oren\> I could chalk it down to them being dumb or I could assume we have a long history of fighting the globalist conspiracy
09:19:09 <\oren\> argh I hate it when I get a bunch of stupid videos in my youtube recommendations and have to click "not interested" on all of them
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09:58:32 <b_jonas> hpp: wait what? why does lead vs tin even matter? they differ in that tin is more fragile vs lead is more ductile, but as a hat shielding you from the stereotypical brain control waves, that doesn't matter too much. if anything, it's the thickness that matters.
09:58:51 <b_jonas> I mean, lead is a bit more dense, so maybe that helps, but it's not such a big difference, is it?
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10:21:29 <Jafet> depleted uranium foil hat
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12:27:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Slnetaiga * moved [[Fpulse]] to [[Fpulse/]]: Special move
12:29:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49959&oldid=49957 * Slnetaiga * (+1755) Added operands list
12:30:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49960&oldid=49959 * Slnetaiga * (-2)
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12:36:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49961&oldid=49960 * Slnetaiga * (+58)
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12:37:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49962&oldid=49961 * Slnetaiga * (+0)
12:47:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49963&oldid=49962 * Slnetaiga * (+4)
12:51:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49964&oldid=49963 * Slnetaiga * (+542) Added analogs of operands in brainfuck
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14:02:35 <ybden> Where have I seen that command before...
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16:38:15 <oerjan> `addquote <hppavilion[1]> THEY MADE A MOVIE ABOUT THE 50 SHADES SEQUEL TOO! <hppavilion[1]> Somebody shall pay for this <imode> not me, I ain't buyin' a ticket.
16:38:24 <HackEgo> 1292) <hppavilion[1]> THEY MADE A MOVIE ABOUT THE 50 SHADES SEQUEL TOO! <hppavilion[1]> Somebody shall pay for this <imode> not me, I ain't buyin' a ticket.
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16:52:51 <oerjan> <\oren\> gif is git with a f <-- * silently corrects "git" pronunciation
16:53:26 <int-e> oerjan: wait, how do you pronounce "gif"?
16:54:30 <oerjan> int-e: sorry, i was confusing \oren\ and hppavilion[1] in the logs
16:54:43 <int-e> (the GIF g is for "graphics" so it should be pronounced as in "go"?)
16:54:48 <oerjan> i pronounce it with hard g
16:55:18 <oerjan> but the entire discussion started because hppavilion[1] blathered about it being soft
16:56:01 <int-e> okay. I didn't see that :P
16:56:09 <oerjan> (btw do you see the lines where i mention him? also there was a hilarious part in yesterday's logs where you were repeating his rhymes)
16:56:47 <int-e> I see mentions, yes.
17:03:07 <oerjan> hm looks like i'll have to correct "gigantic"
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17:20:39 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I think that's just a copypaste induced error on wikipedia <-- actually that infobox was created by a trolling sockpuppet (who also went by the nick Shahafvg). other edits by em were reverted, but not the whole box.
17:24:22 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ The original version said it was a feminine name :P https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oren&diff=647274973&oldid=646400067
17:25:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49965&oldid=49956 * BlueOkiris * (+1570) /* Example Programs */
17:26:19 <oerjan> that person also created the wikipedia page for Shahaf
17:27:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49966&oldid=49899 * BlueOkiris * (+1582)
17:27:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49967&oldid=49966 * BlueOkiris * (-255) /* NOR */
17:27:53 <oerjan> shachaf: they're disgracing your name tdnh
17:29:07 <oerjan> tl;dr: you can find out a _lot_ by bisecting wikipedia history pages.
17:30:49 <oerjan> (it's easier if you skip the obvious vandalism edits)
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17:34:39 <shachaf> oerjan: wait, correct "gigantic" from what to what
17:35:28 <oerjan> i used to think the initial g was hard hth
17:36:18 <oerjan> (now i'm getting dejá vu. maybe i've corrected it before.)
17:36:51 <int-e> great, now I have the phrase "oerjan the [g]entleman" stuck in my head.
17:37:03 <int-e> maybe it'll subside with sharing.
17:37:17 -!- jeffl35 has changed nick to 18WAAGAMT.
17:39:12 <int-e> in fact that would solve all my problems...
17:39:28 <oerjan> i don't recall ever pronouncing gentleman with a hard g. it's one of those words one actually gets to hear aloud.
17:40:09 <int-e> and quite possibly before you even start learning English.
17:42:26 <oerjan> how did 18WAAGAMT get a nick starting with a digit
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17:43:23 <oerjan> Bowserinator: that's not actually an answer tdnh
17:44:42 <oerjan> those happen on freenode?
17:44:57 <oerjan> there wasn't even a netsplit going on...
17:45:10 <18WAAGAMT> oerjan: you log into 2 different servers, then you do /anick <random nick>
17:45:26 <18WAAGAMT> (anick is used to change nicks on all servers you are connected to in hexchat)
17:45:35 -!- 18WAAGAMT has changed nick to jeffl35.
17:46:56 <oerjan> oh i see. you probably did /anick Bowserinator
17:47:27 <oerjan> that would just have been blocked
17:48:09 <oerjan> i guess the other colliding login isn't on this channel, then.
17:55:41 -!- jeffl35 has changed nick to `Time-Warp.
17:55:52 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] * hppavilion[1] obtains lead foil hat, as tinfoil will not be strong enough <-- you need to go heavier. plutonium foil is where it's at.
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17:58:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49968&oldid=49964 * Slnetaiga * (+100)
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17:59:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fpulse/]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49969&oldid=49968 * Slnetaiga * (+110)
18:00:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49970&oldid=49965 * BlueOkiris * (+111) /* 1bit Adder.nor */
18:02:11 -!- `Time-Warp has changed nick to Time`Warp.
18:02:34 -!- Time`Warp has changed nick to `Time-Warp.
18:06:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Fpulse/]] to [[F-PULSE]]: Incorrect name
18:08:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Slnetaiga]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49973 * Oerjan * (+233) Moved your page
18:09:20 <\oren\> wow I can't have 9oren9
18:10:21 <\oren\> oerjan: plutonium foil is also useful because if you crumple your hat into a ball and throw it you can take the entire city you're in with you
18:11:09 <oerjan> \oren\: i'm afraid plutonium doesn't work that way, you need uranium.
18:11:29 <oerjan> (plutonium needs very precise implosion arrangement)
18:11:43 <\oren\> oerjan: no it's the oter way around
18:11:52 <\oren\> uranium needs implosion
18:12:00 -!- `Time-Warp has changed nick to jeffl35.
18:12:05 <oerjan> i am quite sure you remember incorrectly.
18:12:47 <oerjan> the uranium isotope is harder to produce but easier to use.
18:13:19 <\oren\> hmm, maybe you're right
18:14:01 <Taneb> Might it depend on the isotope of Uranium?
18:14:08 <Taneb> U-235 vs U-238 etc
18:14:27 <\oren\> there are actual suppliers of uranium foil
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18:16:54 <oerjan> Taneb: there's only one uranium isotope that can blow up at all.
18:17:12 <Taneb> Oh, I did not know that
18:17:49 <oerjan> that's what makes it hard to produce, they cannot be separated just chemically.
18:19:39 <pikhq> They can only be seperated by exploiting their different masses, and their masses are very close.
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18:30:51 <oerjan> <ybden> Where have I seen that command before... <-- both fungot and HackEgo have it too
18:31:06 <oerjan> i think HackEgo may have two versions
18:31:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bot: not found
18:31:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: snack: not found
18:31:27 <ybden> `` find -name '*snack*'
18:31:34 <ybden> `` find -name '*bot*'
18:31:44 <oerjan> fungoooooooooooooooooooot
18:31:44 <HackEgo> ./bin/botsnack \ ./.hg/store/data/lambdabot.i \ ./.hg/store/data/a/d/_d_c_p_u_tool_bot-master \ ./.hg/store/data/a/d/_d_c_p_u_tool_bot-master/dcpubot.py.i \ ./.hg/store/data/lambdabotloop.i \ ./.hg/store/data/egobot.tar.xz.d \ ./.hg/store/data/d/_d_c_p_u_tool_bot-master \ ./.hg/store/data/d/_d_c_p_u_tool_bot-master/dcpubot.py.i \ ./.hg/store/dat
18:31:44 <HackEgo> ./bin/snackego \ ./bin/botsnack \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/botsnack.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/buttsnack.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/snackego.i
18:31:58 <ybden> snackego? buttsnack?
18:32:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: buttsnack: not found
18:32:21 <oerjan> i think i eviscerated the butt version.
18:32:39 <oerjan> `` find -name '*snack*' bin
18:32:39 <HackEgo> find: paths must precede expression: bin \ Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [-Olevel] [-D help|tree|search|stat|rates|opt|exec] [path...] [expression]
18:32:43 <ybden> Apparently the bot in a (the) nethack channel from days gone had a !botsnack
18:32:47 <oerjan> `` find bin -name '*snack*'
18:32:48 <HackEgo> bin/snackego \ bin/botsnack
18:33:01 <ybden> `cat .hg/store/data/bin/buttsnack.i
18:33:02 <HackEgo> â....................ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ:0ª;°!=3IJ_!^Óx@............uecho '#!/bin/sh' \ ............. \ ......®....ÿÿÿÿÌT#½¿È.͸åÀp_ÉÀ¨Y÷............u#!/bin/sh \ ...................¯....ÿÿÿÿ-em§d5Rr²j°%¯Þ............... \ ... \ ...echo 'ewww' \ .....5...............³ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿäçÓ7U@qN.Ê= ÇßtF«¼............
18:34:25 <oerjan> i guess he may be on a plane or something.
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18:37:14 <oerjan> ybden: .hg is the mercury repository HackEgo uses for version control btw
18:37:17 <shachaf> \oren\: whoa whoa whoa, the canadian TFSA is TG
18:37:48 <shachaf> oerjan: have you made any nuclear weapons tdnh
18:38:13 <ybden> I was assuming that the file there would contain at least some of the source of it, before it was removed
18:38:21 <ybden> Since it was in revision control
18:38:27 <HackEgo> lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; hg cat -r "$(hg log --removed --template '{rev}\n' "$f" | tail -n+2 | head -n1)" "$f"; done
18:38:36 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files}\n" -- "$@"
18:38:39 <ybden> `before bin/buttsnack
18:38:42 <HackEgo> bin/buttsnack//#!/bin/sh \ echo 'ewww'
18:38:59 <ybden> (I also evidently didn't know about these commands)
18:39:11 <HackEgo> shaventions include: before/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
18:39:21 <ybden> `lastfiles bin/buttsnack
18:39:45 <shachaf> `slwd shaventions//s#/#/now/#
18:40:01 <shachaf> `slwd shavention//s#/#/now/#
18:40:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/shavention//shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
18:40:13 <HackEgo> lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; cat "$f"; done
18:40:32 <shachaf> ybden: roswbud is citizwn kanw's slwd hth
18:41:23 <shachaf> roswbud is a plot devicw in citizwn kanw
18:41:25 <ybden> I am not familiar with this.
18:41:45 <ybden> It appwars to bw a rwd slwd
18:42:08 <shachaf> i believe it was black and white hth
18:42:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/shavention//shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
18:42:31 <HackEgo> wisdom/shavention//shaventions include: before/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
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18:43:27 <HackEgo> wisdom/arrow \ wisdom/a test word \ wisdom/atwp \ wisdom/backward \ wisdom/bardsworthlist \ wisdom/bookwatching \ wisdom/bowser \ wisdom/browser \ wisdom/btw \ wisdom/busy beaver growth \ wisdom/copower \ wisdom/cow \ wisdom/dark water \ wisdom/deewiant \ wisdom/delaware \ wisdom/doesthiswork \ wisdom/døsthiswork \ wisdom/døsthiswørk \ wisdom/do
18:43:43 <HackEgo> 1/8:wisdom/arrow \ wisdom/a test word \ wisdom/atwp \ wisdom/backward \ wisdom/bardsworthlist \ wisdom/bookwatching \ wisdom/bowser \ wisdom/browser \ wisdom/btw \ wisdom/busy beaver growth \ wisdom/copower \ wisdom/cow \ wisdom/dark water \ wisdom/deewiant \ wisdom/delaware \ wisdom/doesthiswork \ wisdom/døsthiswork \ wisdom/døst
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18:43:47 <HackEgo> 2/8:hiswørk \ wisdom/dowry \ wisdom/dwfo \ wisdom/dynamic-unwind \ wisdom/dynamic-wind \ wisdom/eyebrow \ wisdom/flower \ wisdom/frozen water \ wisdom/holy water \ wisdom/iwc \ wisdom/jwinslow23 \ wisdom/llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch \ wisdom/markdown \ wisdom/middle worse \ wisdom/muphrys law \ wisdom/
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18:44:03 <HackEgo> 1/1:As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
18:44:10 <HackEgo> 1/5:arrow \ a test word \ atwp \ backward \ bardsworthlist \ bookwatching \ bowser \ browser \ btw \ busy beaver growth \ copower \ cow \ dark water \ deewiant \ delaware \ doesthiswork \ døsthiswork \ døsthiswørk \ dowry \ dwfo \ dynamic-unwind \ dynamic-wind \ eyebrow \ flower \ frozen water \ holy water \ iwc \ jwinslow23 \ ll
18:44:24 <HackEgo> 2/5:anfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch \ markdown \ middle worse \ muphrys law \ mustard watch \ newline \ norway \ off by two \ overworld \ password \ pawn \ people who taneb is not \ programmers knowing what they're doing \ rainbow \ real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download \ rincewind \ roboros
18:44:29 <shachaf> This is probably too much spam. :-(
18:44:40 <shachaf> `? programmers knowing what they're doing
18:44:41 <HackEgo> Programmers knowing what they're doing is a hypothetical alien race invoked to justify keeping horrendous traps in programming languages.
18:44:50 <shachaf> `? people who taneb is not
18:44:51 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
18:44:56 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't want to leave an hg record hth
18:45:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/spout
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18:46:02 <shachaf> i didn't think that would work
18:46:27 <shachaf> enjoying the sunny california weather?
18:46:28 <oerjan> shachaf: wait, did it or not?
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18:47:04 <fizzie> shachaf: The drizzly California weather.
18:47:10 <fizzie> I'm in an office, anyway.
18:47:16 <oerjan> the repo browser won't look in /hackenv/
18:47:27 <shachaf> Maybe fizzie knows a secret workaround?
18:48:09 <shachaf> `learn A spout is a scow's pout.
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18:49:10 <fizzie> I haven't read the context, but "not leaving any hg record" and "affecting the repo browser in any way" are probably almost entirely mutually exclusive.
18:49:20 <fizzie> (So far the only exception I know of was that permissions bug.)
18:49:34 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you know `spam?
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18:49:56 <shachaf> All I want is a way to look at `spam output in HTTP.
18:50:23 <oerjan> obviously you can do `spam in private :P
18:50:24 <fizzie> Is it long or not? If not, you can have it output as a data: base64 URL.
18:51:00 <oerjan> being long is sort of the point of it.
18:52:10 <oerjan> and this is for when it's even longer, so would flood the channel
18:53:33 <shachaf> fizzie: The spam programs run a command and put its output in a file which is hg-ignored.
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18:53:43 <shachaf> Then they print the output one line at a time, with `spam
18:53:54 <oerjan> . o O ( if the web proxy were working, couldn't you upload to a pastebin )
18:54:03 <HackEgo> 1/5:arrow \ a test word \ atwp \ backward \ bardsworthlist \ bookwatching \ bowser \ browser \ btw \ busy beaver growth \ copower \ cow \ dark water \ deewiant \ delaware \ doesthiswork \ døsthiswork \ døsthiswørk \ dowry \ dwfo \ dynamic-unwind \ dynamic-wind \ eyebrow \ flower \ frozen water \ holy water \ iwc \ jwinslow23 \ ll
18:54:07 <HackEgo> 2/5:anfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch \ markdown \ middle worse \ muphrys law \ mustard watch \ newline \ norway \ off by two \ overworld \ password \ pawn \ people who taneb is not \ programmers knowing what they're doing \ rainbow \ real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download \ rincewind \ roboros
18:54:11 <shachaf> fizzie: it's very useful hth
18:54:25 <shachaf> `? real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download
18:54:26 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
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18:55:08 <oerjan> you can read it all day long
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19:00:06 <shachaf> oerjan is gone, time to spam
19:00:08 <HackEgo> 3/5:ewater \ rules of wisdom \ scow \ semmelweis \ slwd \ snow \ something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom \ star wars \ static-wind \ stephen wolfram \ supercalifragilisticexponential growth \ superduperexponential growth \ superexponential growth \ swatter \ sweden \ swedish \ taiwan \ tapeworm \ the neverending work \ the walrus \
19:00:11 <HackEgo> 4/5: thwackamacallit \ tswett \ twh \ twhib \ twitter \ twnh \ twoducks \ userweps \ uwe boll \ waltext2 \ war \ warning \ warranty \ warrigal \ wat \ watch \ water \ we \ wealhtheow \ weather \ webcarting \ wecome \ weetoflake \ wegian \ welcome \ welcome.bork \ welcome.de \ welcome.eo \ welcome.es \ welcome.fi \ welcome.fr \ welco
19:00:12 <HackEgo> 5/5:me.nl \ welcome.sv \ welp \ wercome \ west midlands \ wfraatw \ whatchamacallit \ who \ whom \ wiki \ wikipedia \ winter \ wisdom \ wisdome \ wisdom.pdf \ wisdoom \ wise \ wisest human \ wlcom \ wob_jonas \ wolfram \ women \ word \ works for me \ wtf \ wth \ wumpus \ www \ zimbabwe
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19:10:46 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: 1:3: syntax error in expression (error token is ":3")
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19:46:14 <fizzie> `` bash -c 'echo ${@:2:3}' -- foo bar baz quux zuul
19:46:26 <fizzie> Oh, hppavilion[1] already left.
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20:02:36 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 41m 56s ago: <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I think that's just a copypaste induced error on wikipedia <-- actually that infobox was created by a trolling sockpuppet (who also went by the
20:02:36 <lambdabot> nick Shahafvg). other edits by em were reverted, but not the whole box.
20:02:36 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 38m 14s ago: The original version said it was a feminine name :P https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oren&diff=647274973&oldid=646400067
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20:24:19 <\oren\> Ok, the unifont guy now is claiming that compatibility with terminals has never been a goal of unifont.
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20:27:52 <\oren\> I've decided to forward my discussion back to the full mailing list for posterity. this is hilarious
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20:31:42 <\oren\> @tell b_jonas: unifont is apparently never intended to be used with "programs that expect a monospace font".
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20:35:41 <\oren\> @tell b_jonas: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/unifont/2016-10/msg00001.html
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20:48:05 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: on what OS?
20:48:46 <\oren\> while you're at it, install mintty
20:48:48 <hppavilion[1]> I found out because apparently the school's default gateway is receptive on port 22. WP says that's ssh, so I'm going to check if it's unsecure
20:49:30 <hppavilion[1]> (One of my friends is obsessed with cracking/hacking right now. He's impatient when I don't get admin control in under 2 minutes
20:49:59 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: no, for that you need to install nmap
20:50:42 <\oren\> it is your one-stop shop for vuln scanning
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20:53:15 <hppavilion[1]> It's literally just a multiprocessing module that checks every port on an IP in the given range by creating a connection and catching errors
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20:55:00 <\oren\> argh, that is super nooby
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20:58:19 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yes. Now which nmap dist do I get for cygwin?
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21:10:07 <Taneb> Did you guys see the paper claiming to prove NP = PSPACE?
21:10:38 <Taneb> http://www.tecmf.inf.puc-rio.br/NPPSPACE
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21:20:12 <Taneb> Yesterday (or maybe today? I don't quite remember) I wrote a Haskell program that... really slows down between -O and -O0
21:21:11 <Taneb> > (log (8 * 60) / log 10)
21:21:24 <Taneb> > log (0.2) / log 10
21:21:36 <Taneb> by at least 3 orders of magnitude
21:21:49 <Taneb> (I gave up after 8 minutes when with -O it runs in 0.2 secodns
21:23:45 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/2844046254428651520
21:23:58 <Taneb> It's a super naive program to list the primes less than 1000
21:31:43 <myname> i never heard of data.universe
21:32:17 <Taneb> myname, it's in the "universe" package
21:33:32 <Taneb> It's not often I have a case for using it
21:35:42 <myname> my "super naive program" would be like at most half as much code
21:36:25 <Taneb> myname, it came as a result of me playing with representations of partial orders
21:37:06 <Taneb> It was more "Listing primes is a cool thing I could do with this" than "This is a cool way to list primes", if that makes sense
21:38:40 <Taneb> > let primes = 2:[p | p <- [3..], not $ any (\q -> p `mod` q == 0) (takeWhile (\q -> q * q <= p) primes)] in takeWhile (<= 1000) primes
21:38:42 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
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21:42:12 <myname> where does devides gets its second argument on line 13?
21:43:46 <Taneb> myname, universeF :: [(Limited, Limited)] in that case
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22:22:19 <zzo38> QBASIC does not have a ceiling function but you can write -INT(-X) instead.
22:22:53 <pikhq> Cute. Negate, round down, negate. :)
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22:38:02 <myname> what's wrong with good old INT(X+0.5)?
22:38:44 <zzo38> That is good if you want round to nearest, I suppose
22:41:31 <HackEgo> The IPA (short for International Phonetic Abjad) is an international standard encoding all non-vowel sounds in all spoken languages, and is used to indicate the pronunciation of words. It is incredibly useful, unless you need to pronounce a word.
22:41:48 <zzo38> What does flatular language mean?
22:42:30 <pikhq> Presumably a language that includes flatus as a phoneme or phonemes.
22:42:45 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Language incorporating flatulence as a major feature
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23:13:09 <int-e> Taneb: I've wasted some time on that paper... the claim that \Gamma decreases (weakly) in "Conclusion 12" is, as far as I can see, wrong.
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23:33:34 <oerjan> /kick shachaf Spamming
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23:37:38 <int-e> Taneb: hmm somehow I found an earlier version of the paper...
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23:38:43 <oerjan> > 17:12 < dmhouse> It'll buzz me after a day's worth of not checking my messages. <-- huh i didn't know lambdabot would try again at all :P
23:38:45 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:52: error: parse error on input ‘of’
23:39:01 <izalove> that's what you get for greentexting on irc
23:39:17 <HackEgo> cat: bin/wfraatw: No such file or directory
23:39:22 <oerjan> izalove: well given that i'm actually copying from lambdabot code it seems appropriate.
23:39:23 <HackEgo> cat: bin/twhib: No such file or directory
23:39:28 <HackEgo> cat: bin/wisdoom: No such file or directory
23:39:35 <HackEgo> cat: bin/uwe boll: No such file or directory
23:39:41 <HackEgo> cat: bin/wealhtheow: No such file or directory
23:40:06 <izalove> shachaf: it means that the file you were looking for isn't there
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23:57:20 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a simple (and better than brute force) program to detect Fibonacci numbers and- optimally- return their index
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23:59:41 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. isfib(3) = True, isfib(5) = True, isfib(4) = False; fibind(1) = 0, fibind(2) = 2, fibind(3) = 3, fibind(5) = 4, fibind(8) = 5 (note that the double-1 at the beginning is acknowledged, but 1 only has index 0)
00:04:08 <oerjan> > let phi = (sqrt 5 + 1)/2 in [round (phi**n) | n <- [0..]]
00:04:10 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,7,11,18,29,47,76,123,199,322,521,843,1364,2207,3571,5778,9349,15127...
00:08:47 <oerjan> > let phi = (sqrt 5 + 1)/2 in [round (phi**n/2) | n <- [0..]]
00:08:49 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,6,9,15,23,38,61,100,161,261,421,682,1103,1786,2889,4675,7563,1223...
00:11:17 <lambdabot> [1,0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,1094...
00:11:39 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
00:12:31 <hppavilion[1]> > let phi = (sqrt 5 + 1)/2 in [ceil (phi**n) | n <- [0..]]
00:12:33 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: ceil :: Double -> t
00:12:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no, there are numbers too far off, like 15
00:13:22 <oerjan> i'm sure there is a constant multiplier but i've forgotten what it was.
00:14:09 <oerjan> > let phi = (sqrt 5 + 1)/2; fib = fix$(1:).scanl(+)1 in zipWith(/) fib (map(phi**) [1..])
00:14:11 <lambdabot> [0.6180339887498948,0.38196601125010515,0.4721359549995794,0.437694101250946...
00:14:28 <oerjan> > let phi = (sqrt 5 + 1)/2; fib = fix$(1:).scanl(+)1 in zipWith(/) fib (map(phi**) [1..]) :: [Float]
00:14:30 <lambdabot> [0.618034,0.381966,0.47213593,0.4376941,0.4508497,0.44582468,0.44774407,0.44...
00:15:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: fibonacci is symmetric about 0
00:15:08 <hppavilion[1]> The nth fibonacci when n < 0 is (-1)^(n+1) times the -nth fibonacci
00:15:39 <oerjan> well, anyway, there's an obvious continuation.
00:16:28 <oerjan> > let phi = (sqrt 5 + 1)/2; fib = fix$(1:).scanl(+)1 in drop 10 $ zipWith(/) fib (map(phi**) [1..])
00:16:30 <lambdabot> [0.4472248879170925,0.44720928218042744,0.447215243041414,0.4472129661951193...
00:16:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: General case of fibonacci: (k, |R^k)onacci
00:18:05 <oerjan> > let phi = (sqrt 5 + 1)/2 in [round (phi**n/sqrt 5) | n <- [0..]]
00:18:07 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
00:18:10 <hppavilion[1]> The number at x is the sum of the previous k numbers, starting with a fixed set
00:18:53 <hppavilion[1]> Fibonacci is the (2, (1, 1))onacci sequence, from the latin 'fibo' for "2 and a pair of 1s"
00:21:46 <hppavilion[1]> @let ofib n = 1 if n < 2 else (ofib (n-1)) `oplus` (ofib (n-2))
00:22:03 <oerjan> @let phi=(sqrt 5 + 1)/2; fibArgGuess x = logBase phi (x*sqrt 5); fib n = round (phi**n/sqrt 5); fibArg x | fib g == x = Just g | otherwise = Nothing where g = fibArgGuess x
00:22:19 <oerjan> > map fibArgGuess [1..]
00:22:21 <lambdabot> [1.6722759381845549,3.1126960285971115,3.9552877667738344,4.553116119009668,...
00:22:53 <oerjan> @let phi=(sqrt 5 + 1)/2; fibArgGuess x = round $ logBase phi (x*sqrt 5); fib n = round (phi**n/sqrt 5); fibArg x | fib g == x = Just g | otherwise = Nothing where g = fibArgGuess x
00:23:05 <lambdabot> • Could not deduce (Floating a0) arising from a use of ‘fibArg’
00:23:05 <lambdabot> from the context: (RealFrac a1, Integral a1, Floating a1)
00:23:50 <oerjan> @let phi=(sqrt 5 + 1)/2; fibArgGuess x = round $ logBase phi (fromIntegral x*sqrt 5); fib n = round (phi**n/sqrt 5); fibArg x | fib g == x = Just g | otherwise = Nothing where g = fibArgGuess x
00:23:56 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a10’ arising from a use of ‘show_M21357250580...
00:23:56 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a10)’ from being solved.
00:24:12 <hppavilion[1]> @let ofib 0 = 1; ofib 1 = 1; ofib n = (ofib (n-1)) `oplus` (ofib (n-2))
00:24:13 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: oplus :: t -> t -> t
00:24:13 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘mplus’ (imported from Control.Monad.Writer)
00:25:02 <hppavilion[1]> @let ofib 0 = 1; ofib 1 = 1; ofib n = (ofib (n-1)) `oplus` (ofib (n-2)) where oplus a b = 1/((1/a)+(1/b))
00:25:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um i'm going to have to wipe yours out.
00:25:53 <oerjan> because i cannot correct only mine, @undef only removes everything
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00:26:44 <hppavilion[1]> @let ofib 0 = 1.0; ofib 1 = 1.0; ofib n = (ofib (n-1)) `oplus` (ofib (n-2)) where oplus a b = 1/((1/a)+(1/b))
00:26:55 <oerjan> @let phi=(sqrt 5 + 1)/2; fibArgGuess x = round $ logBase phi (fromIntegral x*sqrt 5); fib n = round (phi^n/sqrt 5); fibArg x | fib g == x = Just g | otherwise = Nothing where g = fibArgGuess x
00:27:05 <lambdabot> [Just 2,Just 3,Just 4,Nothing,Just 5,Nothing,Nothing,Just 6,Nothing,Nothing,...
00:27:17 <oerjan> it was yours that failed :P
00:27:20 <HackEgo> olist 1055: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
00:27:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you see why mine is absurdly inefficient?
00:28:54 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I could probably just define it with normal fibo and just use the oplus of the last two items in normal fibo )
00:29:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's the usual exponential blowup from a recursive fibonacci.
00:29:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is there a way that isn't recursive? I don't remember
00:29:44 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0,0.5,0.3333333333333333,0.2,0.125,7.692307692307693e-2,4.76190476190...
00:30:23 <oerjan> @let oplus a b = 1/((1/a)+(1/b))
00:30:50 <oerjan> > fix$(1:).scanl oplus 1
00:30:52 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0,0.5,0.3333333333333333,0.2,0.125,7.692307692307693e-2,4.76190476190...
00:31:25 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Fibonacci sequence with harmonic sum rather than normal sum
00:31:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well, by recursive i mean double recursion without sharing.
00:31:50 <oerjan> quintopia: working now.
00:33:18 <quintopia> is there a nonzero limit for F_{n+1}/F_n in this case?
00:33:39 <oerjan> > map(id&&&fibArg)[1..]
00:33:41 <lambdabot> [(1,Just 2),(2,Just 3),(3,Just 4),(4,Nothing),(5,Just 5),(6,Nothing),(7,Noth...
00:34:11 <oerjan> > drop 7$map(id&&&fibArg)[1..]
00:34:13 <lambdabot> [(8,Just 6),(9,Nothing),(10,Nothing),(11,Nothing),(12,Nothing),(13,Just 7),(...
00:34:54 <oerjan> although it'll presumably have floating point problems for huge arguments
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00:35:53 <quintopia> i guess if regular F_{n+1}/F_{n} is phi, then harmonic F_{n+1}/F_{n} is Phi? yeah, it has to be
00:36:09 <hppavilion[1]> I've replaced the builtin python RNG in my numerology program with a superior PCG one
00:36:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Even if PCG isn't as good as it's made out to be, it's probably better than the builtin one)
00:51:49 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> Did you guys see the paper claiming to prove NP = PSPACE? <-- i didn't read the paper itself but i read some reddit comments that pointed out some red flags
00:52:16 <quintopia> NP=PSPACE seems INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY to me
00:52:42 <oerjan> some called that a red flag in itself >:)
00:53:01 <imode> another paper that claims NP=PSPACE?
00:53:18 <oerjan> imode: i assume it's the same as a week ago...
00:53:29 <imode> and the week before.. and before.... and before....
00:54:42 <oerjan> (unless you are claiming that even more unlikely result)
00:55:05 <HackEgo> P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
00:55:10 <HackEgo> NP is the complexity class of decisions that are No Problem.
00:55:41 <HackEgo> co-NP, invented in Soviet Russia, is the class of decisions for which you are No Problem.
00:55:57 <alercah> `learn PSPACE is the complexity class of Problem SPACEs. It is the same as P, by an herbal reduction.
00:55:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'pspace': PSPACE is the complexity class of Problem SPACEs. It is the same as P, by an herbal reduction.
00:59:59 <HackEgo> alercäh shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän hppavilion[1̈] oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän jeffl3̈5 oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän boil̈y shachäf shachä
01:03:29 <HackEgo> Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave.
01:05:19 <oerjan> `learn Umlaut is German for "hum aloud", an important feature of the German language. It is indicated by putting two dots over the vowel of the syllable.
01:05:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'umlaut': Umlaut is German for "hum aloud", an important feature of the German language. It is indicated by putting two dots over the vowel of the syllable.
01:06:46 <alercah> I hate wikipedia pages on mathematical problem that talk about the context of the problem, results related to the problem, and everything except for the actual problem
01:07:49 <HackEgo> .scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA
01:09:36 <lambdabot> oerjan said 17m 47s ago: <Taneb> Did you guys see the paper claiming to prove NP = PSPACE? <-- i didn't read the paper itself but i read some reddit comments that pointed out some red flags
01:12:53 <oerjan> hey scott aaronson didn't even bother looking at it :P
01:13:09 <oerjan> (he's seen too many failed attempts)
01:13:43 <Taneb> I hope it turns out to be correct, even if it probably isn't, because I'm an optimist and that seems an exciting result
01:13:54 <oerjan> Taneb: int-e said something about it after you mentioned it
01:14:08 <oerjan> (he thought he'd spotted a specific error)
01:14:25 <Taneb> I see, that was just after I headed out
01:14:49 <alercah> oerjan: what reddit thread?
01:15:06 <Taneb> It's not a subject I have enough background knowledge in to make much headway
01:15:17 <oerjan> the russian for eyebrow is apparently бровь. that's p. cognate.
01:17:00 <oerjan> hmph my latest reddit threads list has disappeared.
01:17:23 <oerjan> i guess it doesn't survive browser restart
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01:18:46 <oerjan> https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/56wyrd/arxiv_paper_claiming_np_pspace_any_immediate_red/ was one
01:19:37 <oerjan> i'm not sure if that one had the relevant comments
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01:20:25 <oerjan> oh it had https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/56wyrd/arxiv_paper_claiming_np_pspace_any_immediate_red/d8n8bh5
01:23:34 <Taneb> Someone I know at uni apparently made a (very-not-infinite-tape) turing machine
01:23:34 <Taneb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRsdaEjSHDA
01:28:50 <oerjan> here was another from r/compsci https://w3.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/56w8hy/arxiv_paper_claiming_np_pspace_any_immediate_red/d8ov40q
01:29:14 <oerjan> which goes into more detail about a possible error
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01:33:53 <imode> are there any esolangs that use comments as string literals (optionally, that is)?
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01:34:52 <oerjan> well in underload we use string literals as comments :)
01:35:34 <oerjan> ^ul (not a comment)(like this)!S
01:36:01 <imode> http://pastebin.com/u78anJ0w
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01:36:22 <imode> my own, I use everything between two quotes as a comment.
01:36:41 <imode> but as it's a part of the source, some external "syscall" could read from program data.
01:38:08 <oerjan> in befunge you could do it too, but then you can use any piece of the program as comment as long as you don't run it.
01:38:32 <oerjan> and you can also use g to read any part of the program.
01:38:39 <imode> that's kind of why I'm starting to think about remapping " to pull double-duty.
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01:38:48 <imode> maybe a "skip" operator.
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01:39:13 <imode> 5" would skip ahead 5 symbols.
01:45:23 <imode> problem is if you wanted to inline a comment... you would need to keep track of the comment's length. :P
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02:30:33 <\oren\> imode: Hollerith constants?
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02:44:09 <zzo38> That is what I thought too, but if you said skip, then maybe it is just a comment? I don't know exactly how it is working?
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03:32:59 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Shouldn't Jeb! Bush have campaigned as ¡Jeb! Bush? )
03:37:28 <hppavilion[1]> It seems that many of my edits to Wikipedia look like they're a PC thing, but are actually purely logical; often, it's removing unnecessary conditional statements
03:39:14 <oerjan> that's what you WANT to think hth
03:39:21 <hppavilion[1]> Such as saying 'husband of a female US president' when it would make more sense to say 'husband of a US president', as the couple being heterosexual isn't actually important, and a gay couple would be the same.
03:40:35 <oerjan> now the poor people in 2040 will be all confused when they try to find out whether the first husband of a president was gay or not
03:41:42 <oerjan> then they'll bitch about those insisting on calling them "people" when they clearly don't identify as such.
03:43:07 <\oren\> the people in 2040 will most likely have horrifying political views created as a reaction to those of my generation
03:43:18 <oerjan> the poor (sorry, fortunately disadvantaged) of 2040 hth
03:43:44 <oerjan> \oren\: hm good point. make that 2060.
03:43:48 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Political Correctness- in this case, things like person-first language, trigger warnings, attempting to pretty much ban words that someone could find offensive or with etymological connotations
03:44:39 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is the wife of the Vice President (or similar role) the Second Lady? )
03:44:49 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm trying to lampshade PC language by imagining a future in which the word "people" is seen as offensive to some hth
03:45:49 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( . o O ( . o O ( BWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHNNNN ) ) )
03:47:59 <oerjan> i don't get the bwahn hth
03:48:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's inception. It's a . o O within a . o O within a . o O
03:48:28 <oerjan> is it a misspelled KHAN with different bantu gender?
03:49:04 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: http://inception.davepedu.com/noflash.php hth
03:49:37 <oerjan> . o O ( that url has "flash" in it i don't want to click it )
03:50:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you're not interpreting me sufficiently meta hth
03:50:54 <oerjan> obviously when i put something in . o O ( ) it's not meant to be literal hth
03:51:22 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Have I been using . o O ( wrong this whole time? )
03:53:25 <oerjan> i didn't mean that literally, duh
03:53:36 <oerjan> it was inside parentheses, after all.
03:54:53 <oerjan> . o O ( the people who add extraneous close parentheses should be careful. what happens if they close the _big_ parenthesis at the beginning of the universe? )
03:55:39 <shachaf> people who keep parentheses open too long should be careful, lest they open the big ) at the end of the universe
03:55:55 <hppavilion[1]> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
03:57:06 <hppavilion[1]> (big parenthesis close all outstanding parenthesis))
03:57:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Other than the big one at the end of the universe)
03:58:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: idcode: not found
03:58:20 <HackEgo> [U+239F RIGHT PARENTHESIS EXTENSION]
03:58:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unidata: not found
03:59:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unicodedata: not found
04:04:33 <HackEgo> U+239F RIGHT PARENTHESIS EXTENSION \ UTF-8: e2 8e 9f UTF-16BE: 239f Decimal: ⎟ \ ⎟ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
04:05:51 <shachaf> please limit your spam to three lines twh
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04:15:32 <shachaf> more inclusive characters please twh
04:19:10 <HackEgo> [U+23AC RIGHT CURLY BRACKET MIDDLE PIECE]
04:19:30 <HackEgo> [U+239E RIGHT PARENTHESIS UPPER HOOK]
04:21:30 <tswett> Ooh... I think I get it.
04:21:48 <tswett> The `icode command does the opposite of the `unicode command...
04:21:58 <tswett> Because `unicode is "un-icode".
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04:41:48 <hppavilion[1]> [1] "Noon" is when the sun is directly above your head
04:42:17 <hppavilion[1]> [2] "Antinoon" is when it is noon at the antipode of your current location (draw a straight line through the center of the earth, come out the other side)
04:42:18 <zzo38> Unless between the tropics the sun is never directly above
04:42:37 <shachaf> high noon is 260 minutes after regular noon
04:42:56 <zzo38> But, when the sun is at "midheaven", which means at the local meridian, is the solar noon.
04:43:03 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Correction: "Noon" is when the subsolar point is at the same longitude as you
04:44:17 <shachaf> i,i "It was about people whose mental diseases couldn't be treated because the causes of the diseases were all in the fourth dimension, and three-dimensional Earthling doctors couldn't see those causes at all or even imagine them. One thing Trout said that Rosewater liked very much was that there really were vampires and werewolves and goblins and angels and so on, but that they were in the fourth dimens
04:44:23 <shachaf> ion. So was William Blake, Rosewater's ...
04:44:26 <shachaf> ... favorite poet, according to Trout. So were heaven and hell."
04:45:03 <hppavilion[1]> [3] Separate the time between two consecutive antinoons into 24 equal-length units. Noon is at the exact midpoint (generally)
04:45:22 <hppavilion[1]> [4] Movement of the sun across the sky is a continuous function, or very very close.
04:46:18 <hppavilion[1]> [5] Theorem: At all times, it is 17:00 somewhere; in fact, it is 17:00 in uncountably infinitely many somewhere lying along a chord of the surface of the earth.
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05:08:09 <zzo38> I found an article which says (among other things) "This is particularly accurate here where were trying to examine a chess game that happened forty years and we only have three of the pieces." Now I can think, what kind of chess puzzle might be made that involve such thing?
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06:05:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Luizperes * New user account
06:13:26 <pikhq> No, I think that's called a void.
06:28:16 <hppavilion[1]> I don't actually have anything other than 1-way mirror to work with
06:29:45 <hppavilion[1]> (What's n for a normal mirror as found in a Nacireman shrine room?)
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06:34:44 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan oerjan has quit (Quit: pi-way mirror) <-- itym (pau*0.66...)-way mirror hth
06:45:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49974&oldid=49932 * Luizperes * (+177) /* Introductions */
06:46:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49975 * Luizperes * (+784) Created page with "An esoteric programming language based on Brainfuck. == About == '''Brain''' wants to improve the performance of the Brainfuck programming language and extend it as well, as..."
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07:07:27 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
07:08:21 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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07:10:10 <hppavilion[1]> `slwd scow//s#$# Scheme is usually preferred, but Racket will be accepted in a pinch.#
07:10:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/scow//Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp. Scheme is usually preferred, but Racket will be accepted in a pinch.
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07:11:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49976&oldid=49975 * Luizperes * (+2382)
07:17:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49977&oldid=47222 * Hppavilion1 * (+688) Stage III: Bargaining
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07:20:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49978&oldid=49977 * Hppavilion1 * (+144) Linkfix, even more bargainal offers
07:20:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49979&oldid=49976 * Luizperes * (+1211)
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07:24:04 * Sgeo runs away from PhantomHoover
07:24:35 <Sgeo> It's more of an encoding than a derivative, although I think the same could be said for a lot of derivatives, but I'm explicit about it
07:25:48 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: PhantomHoover is no longer in charge of hating on that
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07:26:54 <Sgeo> Wait, which derivative, I made two
07:27:39 <Sgeo> I was thinking BF-RLE
07:27:48 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: BF-RLE is acceptable, but would probably be better served as part of the main BF page or as a subpage
07:28:49 <Sgeo> The core idea of Braintrust was unrelated to Brainfuck, I just needed a vessel to implement it and Brainfuck seemed as good as any
07:29:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49980&oldid=49979 * Luizperes * (+1104)
07:31:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49981&oldid=49980 * Luizperes * (+538)
07:32:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49982&oldid=49981 * Luizperes * (+185)
07:36:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49983&oldid=46788 * Hppavilion1 * (-7017) Blank
07:37:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49984&oldid=49983 * Hppavilion1 * (-14)
07:38:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49985&oldid=49984 * Hppavilion1 * (+73) linky
07:38:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49986&oldid=49985 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) linkyfix
07:39:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49987&oldid=49986 * Hppavilion1 * (-8) repeated redundancy fixed and repaired
07:40:17 <hppavilion[1]> (then again, spammers would just mark their edits as minor and we wouldn't ever see...)
07:40:51 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: I have, hopefully, subsided the problem for some time with an edit to the bf article on the wiki
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07:57:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49988&oldid=49982 * Luizperes * (+577)
07:58:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49989&oldid=49927 * Luizperes * (+12)
08:00:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49990&oldid=49988 * Luizperes * (+0)
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09:41:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49991&oldid=49978 * Rdebath * (-137) Removed "Symbolic Brainfuck", trivial substitution, "goto" wimpmode and "memory" wimpmode are already covered.
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09:51:53 <b_jonas> \oren\: I don't care about unifont, sorry
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11:05:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49992&oldid=49805 * Rdebath * (+194) A little more description
11:05:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49993&oldid=49991 * Rdebath * (+349) Added division for fastest known "interpreters" (JIT), removed two "Hardware" ones that use commodity CPUs. Is COBOL notable??
11:18:18 <int-e> `le/rn denial/Sorry, but we don't know anything about denial. Taneb most definitely did not invent it.
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11:44:22 <Taneb> Last night I won a game of Settlers of Catan by building a city out of sheep
12:03:51 <Taneb> (I was getting 5 sheep whenever someone rolled a 5, which was often, and had a port so I could sell 2 sheep for 1 whatever)
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12:17:55 <shachaf> better put that on the sheeping wall
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12:28:24 <b_jonas> Taneb: original, or with extension sets? How heavily house ruled?
12:28:54 <quintopia> Taneb: i did that once. always quite fun.
12:28:58 <Taneb> Actually, it was someone else's set, I don't know what'd in the original
12:29:08 <Taneb> I had a "Longest road" card for two victory points
12:30:05 <Taneb> I also at point did a trade out of turn, but it was quite small and didn't change much in the long term
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12:36:41 <lambdabot> LOWI 151120Z 26009KT 9999 FEW060 BKN120 17/09 Q1014 NOSIG
12:37:42 <lambdabot> EGBB 151120Z 18007KT 150V210 9999 SCT022 13/09 Q1005
12:44:01 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
12:44:03 <lambdabot> CYUL 151100Z 13004KT 15SM FEW120 BKN250 05/03 A3038 RMK AC1CI6 AC TR SLP291 \ ENVA 151120Z 09009KT CAVOK 08/M05 Q1027 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 12008KT \ ESSB 151120Z 08008KT 050V130 9999 BKN015 06/03
12:44:04 <lambdabot> Q1032 \ KOAK 151053Z 11003KT 9SM FEW016 OVC022 16/14 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP136 T01560144 PNO $
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13:35:33 <izalove> https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/include/uapi/linux/reboot.h
13:37:26 <izalove> `` printf '%8x\n' 672274793 85072278 369367448 537993216 | sed -r 's|(..)(..)|\1/\2/|'
13:37:27 <HackEgo> 28/12/1969 \ 5/12/1996 \ 16/04/1998 \ 20/11/2000
13:37:46 <izalove> these are the birth dates of linus torvalds' wife and daughters
13:37:56 <izalove> that's the cutest easter egg i've ever seen
13:40:41 <ais523> izalove: I knew they were significant dates, but not what they represented
13:41:24 <ais523> a fun problem I ran into with my CALESYTA entry today was related to soft hyphens
13:41:33 <ais523> I wanted to output binary data unambiguously
13:42:12 <ais523> for control codes in the 0-32 and 127 range, there are characters like ␀ you can use
13:42:49 <ais523> for 128-160, I used combining characters like ␍⃑
13:43:03 <ais523> and this makes 255 out of the 256 possible octets visible
13:43:37 <ais523> (because you can use latin-1 for the values above 160)
13:43:38 <ais523> but soft hyphen doesn't have a control picture, and isn't naturally visible
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14:45:34 <b_jonas> ais523: can't you use ibm437 for that? it has practically only distinguishable characters, since they had few space and wanted to get as many different visible glyphs from it as possible. only {0x20, 0x00, 0xff} look the same, but you can replace those.
14:46:36 <b_jonas> also possibly {0xf9, 0xfa} which are a middle dot and a small middle dot
14:47:47 <b_jonas> my bitmap font actually has some mostly unambiguous pictures at the position of the ascii control and high control characters, only I almost see them because there's no way to display them in the terminal
14:49:24 <b_jonas> the soft hyphen isn't a control character though, so it does show up in the terminal with my font properly
14:49:54 <zzo38> They are different dots
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15:02:33 <ais523> b_jonas: it's possible but probably less intuitive
15:03:01 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, it depends on what the data represents
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16:03:16 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 9h 28m 31s ago: oerjan has quit (Quit: pi-way mirror) <-- itym (pau*0.66...)-way mirror hth
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16:03:47 <ais523> oerjan: you have a symbol for 1½ times pi?
16:03:50 <ais523> is that a cross between pi and tau?
16:04:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1] has all sorts of weird things.
16:04:10 <ais523> that's like starting arrays at 0.5
16:05:31 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't that an xkcd thing?
16:05:38 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure he's done that too. or at least someone did.
16:05:45 <ais523> b_jonas: not originally, although xkcd may have referenced it
16:05:59 <ais523> VHDL probably lets you start arrays at any value you like
16:06:11 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp. Scheme is usually preferred, but Racket will be accepted in a pinch.
16:06:22 <ais523> and there are hints in the syntax that you can index them with things other than integers
16:06:30 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unknown command: `['
16:06:31 <b_jonas> ais523: fortran, pascal and haskell lets you start arrays at any value too.
16:06:38 <oerjan> `slwd scow//s/[.].*/./
16:06:40 <HackEgo> wisdom/scow//Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
16:06:58 <ais523> VHDL also lets you have arrays that are numbered backwards
16:07:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1] sometimes doesn't understand when something ruins a joke...
16:07:11 <ais523> this means that you can ask an array for its upper and lower bounds, also for its left and right bounds
16:07:36 <ais523> (an array numbered, say, 7 downto 0 will have a lower bound of 0 but a left bound of 7)
16:07:49 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] your addition to `? scow ruins the joke, so i removed it.
16:07:59 <ais523> Perl had a variable that let you globally change the lower bound of all arrays
16:08:03 <ais523> then they changed it to a compiler directive
16:08:06 <ais523> then they deprecated it
16:09:11 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's funny how that's happened in three completely different ways in APL and BASIC and Perl
16:09:54 <b_jonas> APL originally used to be indexed from 1, probably to pull mathematicians in more easily, but later added a global setting like in perl to change indexing to start with 0 instead, which is the sane choice
16:10:43 <b_jonas> BASIC tried to please both crowds, so DIM R(8) would create an array of 9 elements indexed from 0 to 8 inclusive, but later gained a global option to start indexing at 1
16:11:11 <b_jonas> Perl started with indexing at 0 but had the option for reasons unknown to me
16:11:14 <ais523> what about Lua and PHP, which treat arrays as special cases of hash tables?
16:11:37 <ais523> and therefore let you use completely arbitrary indexes, but typically a few special cases for arrays that are numbered in order?
16:11:46 <ais523> actually I think a PHP array is an ordered hash table (?)
16:11:51 <zzo38> You can just write something like DIM R(-3 to 15) or whatever, though
16:11:51 <b_jonas> ais523: Lua actually has the builtin operator # treat arrays as 1-based (plus library functions), plus also the implementation is optimized for 1-based arrays,
16:12:08 <zzo38> ais523: Yes it is, for some reason
16:12:09 <b_jonas> oh, and the varargs system also treatas arrays as 1-based
16:12:18 <ais523> b_jonas: that's the special case I was thinking of
16:12:26 <b_jonas> so in Lua, sadly, you're stuck with 1-based arrays very much, and it's hard to change that without some compatibillity break
16:12:53 <b_jonas> though at least lua isn't that much of an array-based language than perl or apl, so it matters a bit less
16:12:59 <b_jonas> GAP is the one that REALLY bothers me
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16:13:26 <b_jonas> and that is a huge mental barrier to me whenever I try to do anything in GAP
16:13:42 <b_jonas> like, in theory it shouldn't be that bad, you just have to subtract 1 or add 1 a few places
16:13:49 <b_jonas> but it somehow drives me crazy
16:13:54 <ais523> b_jonas: I've seen a widely used language in a particular field
16:14:03 <\oren\> clearly you've never done much in Visual Basic either
16:14:15 <b_jonas> \oren\: I did just mention BASIC above
16:14:34 <zzo38> In BASIC, strings are 1-based, but arrays can be whatever based you want.
16:14:45 <ais523> in which the normal, intended way to do x[y] = z translates as eval("x" + y) = z
16:14:59 <ais523> I assume this is somehow optimized behind the scenes but it's still insane
16:15:14 <ais523> (incidentally, this trick is sometimes useful in Perl golfing)
16:15:23 <ais523> (you basically use the entire space of variable names as a hash table)
16:16:38 <\oren\> visual basic is interesting to me because it has all the same extensive libraries as C# but retains a lot of BASIC wackyness
16:17:10 <zzo38> TI-92 also uses 1-based arrays. (Also on TI-92, I have tried and if you use a fractional array index it just fails to simplify and is not an error, but specifying zero as the index is an error.)
16:17:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, true, I forgot about strings
16:18:36 <b_jonas> I'm very unfamiliar with TI-92
16:19:42 <\oren\> visual basic is like C# from an alternate timeline where americans won the cold war
16:21:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: have you ever programmed wordbasic or corelscript? those are strange dialects of basic, much closer to traditional basics than visualbasic
16:22:01 <zzo38> JavaScript uses 0-based arrays and strings, but you can make up your own object for 1-based if you want to (but then is not compatible with other functions)
16:22:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think I may have done once
16:22:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: well sure, you can make up your own functions for anything-based arrays in lots of languages
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16:22:53 <zzo38> Yes, and you can also fake 1-based in C, but you can't do it properly.
16:25:23 <zzo38> For example you can make up a macro to make pointer arithmetic to do that, but on some computers, performing pointer arithmetic that causes the result to be out of bounds is an error.
16:26:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, in C you'd need a new macro to index the array, which subtracts 1
16:26:37 <b_jonas> how does Mathematica work again? does it use 1-based arrays? it's been a while since I used it so I don't recall
16:27:02 <zzo38> I have never used Mathematica but I have seen several example codes, but I forget, anyways
16:28:19 <b_jonas> yes, Mathematica is 1-based, worse than that in fact, because indexing by 0 gives the head of the item (think of the head like the symbol in prolog, sort of, but way more magical than that), so if you accidentally index by 0 you could get ugly heisenbugs that are hard to discover
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17:04:08 <fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to http://community.schemewiki.org from there. but it's written in a relatively portable style?
17:04:56 <ais523> huh, I never thought of bots thinking of Internet use in miles, but it makes sense from their viewpoints
17:05:12 <ais523> this is pretty much the setting of the Megaman Battle Network series, come to think of it
17:05:13 <b_jonas> I think it's sort of figurative
17:05:39 <ais523> (Internet usage becomes so complex that people need to use bots to help them navigate it, and the bots see the Internet as if it were a real world, needing to walk from place to place, etc.)
17:05:47 <b_jonas> like walking through the valley of the shadow of death
17:06:46 <b_jonas> ais523: what? for a very long time now the internet has been so complicated that people need routers to figure out where to send each packet. and I'm convinced the routers (at least some of them) work by magic.
17:07:03 <b_jonas> (as in, the other routers just ask the magic routers for help)
17:07:26 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to
17:07:26 <oerjan> http://community.schemewiki.org from there. but it's written in
17:07:26 <oerjan> a relatively portable style?
17:07:26 <fungot> oerjan: of having a cognitive disconnect there weren't any chinese speakers there), and expander and ( module b...) in my code directory on the web
17:07:28 <HackEgo> 1293) <fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to
17:07:35 <ais523> b_jonas: but you don't have bots going around fighting wars and placing barriers across cables and getting frozen in cyber-ice
17:07:39 <HackEgo> *poof* <fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to
17:07:55 <ais523> oerjan: how did that end up text-wrapped anyway?
17:08:04 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm.... I think a little of that does happen, but yes, we don't get much of it
17:08:05 <ais523> `addquote <fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to http://community.schemewiki.org from there. but it's written in a relatively portable style?
17:08:06 <fungot> ais523: better than the drscheme editor that ' delete' on mac keyboards, is usually defined in terms of c++, ada, java... macros don't happen until after the bindings are there?
17:08:07 <HackEgo> 1293) <fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to http://community.schemewiki.org from there. but it's written in a relatively portable style?
17:08:47 <oerjan> ais523: because i'm copying from putty, and irssi is _supposed_ to detect its own wrapping, but somehow keeps failing.
17:09:13 <oerjan> i've increased the timing threshold several times...
17:09:19 <oerjan> test: fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to
17:09:19 <oerjan> http://community.schemewiki.org from there. but it's written in
17:09:19 <oerjan> a relatively portable style?
17:09:20 <fungot> oerjan: eww... mgt is ugly, though,
17:10:13 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 23h 13m 54s ago: <boily> wait. don't tell me nobody fungotted overnight and I'm still the last one who spoke to him? <-- . o O ( hah no one else _ever_ will ... oh crap )
17:10:36 <oerjan> paste_detect_time = 200msecs
17:10:40 * boily pats fungot on the... head? does fungot even have a head?
17:10:40 <fungot> boily: i can't judge about that. they're introducing the topic of your fnord
17:10:50 <ais523> fungot doesn't know whether it has a head
17:10:51 <fungot> ais523: i'm not even sure myself how it works :( it says i've fnord wrong argument order. for example a microsoft keyboard... so my shifts are different.
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17:10:55 <oerjan> how can that possibly not be enough? it must ignore it for some other reason.
17:10:58 <ais523> that makes sense, given how bot anatomy works
17:10:59 <boily> `relcome phoenixflounderi
17:11:00 <HackEgo> phoenixflounderi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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17:12:52 <ais523> looks like our welcome message actually worked!
17:12:57 <ais523> how often does that happen
17:13:57 <Taneb> ais523, I think every couple of weeks someone gets `welcome'd then leaves
17:14:06 <Taneb> I like to think it's because it's working
17:14:11 <ais523> yes, but not always do they say it's because it's the wrong #esoteric
17:16:12 <oerjan> test after increasing again: fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to
17:16:12 <oerjan> http://community.schemewiki.org from there. but it's written in
17:16:12 <oerjan> a relatively portable style?
17:16:40 <oerjan> ok if 500 msecs don't work, then it cannot be the time.
17:17:10 <ais523> I was thinking "if it's not the time, maybe it's the date?" but it isn't Wednesday
17:23:09 <oerjan> fungot> boily: i walked 5 miles to get to
17:23:09 <oerjan> http://community.schemewiki.org from there. but it's written in
17:23:09 <oerjan> a relatively portable style?
17:23:09 <fungot> oerjan: so that would be nice if there was a small chance i get a
17:23:29 <oerjan> (that was a last test to see if it was because i'd written a prefix first)
17:23:51 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it worked after i increased it on a previous occasion.
17:24:07 <oerjan> ais523> yes, but not always do they say it's because it's the wrong
17:24:27 * oerjan gives up for now, i guess it's back to mungling those things in vim.
17:26:07 <oerjan> oh irssi has finally been upgraded.
17:28:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
17:28:08 <ybden> `cat bin/rainwords
17:28:09 <HackEgo> #!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
17:28:18 <oerjan> (so i'm not longer being insecure, i guess)
17:28:55 <zzo38> IRC client I use not have the problem with wrapping because output wrapping is done only by the terminal. (It also makes input wrapping done by the terminal, but still needs to know the width of the screen in case of backspace or if other output occurs while the user is typing)
17:31:29 <FireFly> oerjan: I don't know irssi, but weechat has /window bare for those purposes. maybe irssi has something similar?
17:31:35 <FireFly> for copy-pasting quotes I mean
17:34:17 <oerjan> irssi has /set paste_join_multiline ON, it just happens to be buggy. i found an old still open bug report...
17:36:57 <oerjan> hm it _is_ capable of reflowing when resizing the window...
17:37:24 <oerjan> otoh how would putty be able to know if there's a true line break?
17:37:46 <ais523> oerjan: maybe it just counts any line with a bunch of spaces at the start as a continuation?
17:37:59 <ais523> that's the obvious impl of dewrapping
17:38:02 <oerjan> ais523: that's the idea. it just doesn't work.
17:38:42 * ais523 thinks "the idea is that it just doesn't work" would be a good esolang concept
17:38:54 <ais523> btw, how are everyone's CALESYTA entries getting on?
17:39:09 <ais523> I have most of a spec worked out in my head (also an older version written down but I'm going to redo some things)
17:39:28 <Taneb> Ooh! I forgot about that!
17:39:37 <ais523> also I now have a working syntax highlighter
17:39:44 <ais523> which means that the parser probably works too
17:39:54 <ais523> finally, I have an idea (only in my head so far) of how to write useful programs
17:40:11 <ais523> it's surprisingly difficult, you have to exploit corner cases in the spec in a nonobvious way to prevent the language being subTC in an unusual way
17:41:45 <b_jonas> oh, an esolang design contest? interesting
17:43:24 <ais523> they want spec + impl (maybe also IDE) + example programs + not a BF variant
17:43:41 <ais523> also a computational class analysis
17:45:00 <ais523> oh gah I just realised how hard it will be to write a quine in this langugae
17:45:19 <ais523> it may end up as the language with the hardest quine-to-other-common-example-program ratio
17:45:40 <b_jonas> then it's definitely not just a brainfuck-alike
17:45:52 <b_jonas> in brainfuck-alikes it's usually easy to write a quine, or impossible
17:46:07 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it's possible, but the language has features that specifically make quining harder than normal
17:46:10 <b_jonas> (impossible if they have too limited io or very limited computational capability)
17:46:28 <b_jonas> um, what counts as normal?
17:46:41 <b_jonas> you don't mean perl-like normal, but dumb esolang-like normal, right?
17:46:44 <ais523> I gave lessons on quine construction somewhere a while back, maybe Reddit
17:47:07 <b_jonas> as in, I don't expect there to be fancy string literals with various forms of quoting and escape sequences and built-in string and regex operations
17:47:16 <ais523> by normal I mean that the difficulty of writing a quine in your language is basically equal to the difficulty of taking a universal quine, and translating it into your language
17:47:35 <ais523> and by universal quine I mean pseudocode quine, or basically the standard quine template that doesn't rely on any language-specific tricks
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17:49:33 <ais523> anyway, the universal quine template doesn't take kindly to languages in which any part of the program can alter the parsing of the entire rest of the program, both backwards and forwards
17:50:14 <ais523> I ended up looking at mathematical papers in order to find algorithms for use in the parser
17:50:32 <ais523> to get it up to acceptable speed on large inputs
17:51:22 <b_jonas> Now I'm looking at the three sqlite quines I wrote
17:51:47 <zzo38> You wrote three? Which ones are they?
17:52:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: they're on the mailing list near 2014-03-08
17:52:14 <ais523> `` echo select 1 | sqlite3
17:52:16 <HackEgo> Error: incomplete SQL: select 1
17:52:26 <ais523> wait, I have to select it from something?
17:52:34 <ais523> or maybe add a semicolon or the like?
17:52:39 <ais523> `` echo 'select 1;' | sqlite3
17:52:45 <ais523> ah, semicolon is all it needed
17:53:06 <b_jonas> sqlite quine => http://dpaste.com/0S0XKSE
17:53:17 <ais523> now I'm interested in how you break linearity
17:53:21 <ais523> that's the only hard part I see here
17:53:30 <ais523> (err, affinity, not linearity; clearly deleting information is easy)
17:53:34 <b_jonas> um, what do you mean by linearity in this case?
17:53:36 <ais523> oh, you created a table
17:53:42 <ais523> b_jonas: the ability to use a value more than once
17:54:03 <b_jonas> in the third one I use subselect to assign something to variables, and used the variable more than once in the outer select
17:54:36 <ais523> I think you need to break linearity to use a universal quine construction, thus quining isn't /necessarily/ possible in a linear language
17:54:38 <b_jonas> in the second one I use the string function replace that can find and replace more than one instance of a substring
17:54:52 <ais523> (but then, linear languages tend to be sub-TC unless they have a monad or the like that lets you break linearity in a controlled fashion)
17:55:23 <b_jonas> the first one is a vanilla universal quine of the kind I like, using a list of values instead of variables, only it gets somewhat hairy because it isn't easy to create and subscript a list in sqlite3,
17:55:34 <b_jonas> and also it's hard to concatenate a list of strings
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17:56:49 <ais523> `` echo "SELECT replace(s,char(33),'''')||s||'''s);'FROM(SELECT'SELECT replace(s,char(33),!!!!)||s||!!!s);!FROM(SELECT!'s);" | sqlite3
17:56:49 <HackEgo> Error: near line 1: no such function: char
17:56:56 <zzo38> Now the GURPS points calculation program I made in JavaScript is supports colours!
17:57:02 <ais523> may be an escaping problem
17:57:05 <ais523> SQL is a pain to sel-escape
17:57:16 <zzo38> You need a newer version of SQLite
17:57:21 <ais523> although I don't think it is in this case
17:57:26 <HackEgo> 3.7.13 2012-06-11 02:05:22 f5b5a13f7394dc143aa136f1d4faba6839eaa6dc
17:58:23 <ais523> interesting question: assuming you don't care about bracket matching issues, do all languages with an Underload interpreter also have a quine?
18:00:11 <oerjan> <ais523> I think you need to break linearity to use a universal quine <-- this reminds me of http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2903#comment-1425822
18:00:14 <oerjan> construction, thus quining isn't /necessarily/ possible in a
18:00:21 <oerjan> of course it broke again.
18:00:29 <oerjan> this is going to be awful.
18:00:30 <ais523> wait, how does that even break?
18:00:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I think so, at least if the source of the underload program can be stored in some sane encoding in the program (not necessarily as a literal without escaping, but any sane format)
18:00:39 <ais523> the bit that broke wasn't even copy-pasted
18:00:58 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, good point, you could have a language where the /only/ program is an Underload interp
18:01:21 <ais523> oerjan: huh, I know the author of that comment
18:01:22 <oerjan> ais523: i only paste once i've written the rest, since that generally posts the line too
18:01:31 <b_jonas> but this is more or less true to any sane inner language, not only to underload
18:01:35 <ais523> he used to work a couple of offices away from mine
18:03:16 <b_jonas> from that esolang design contest, "Can you design a language inspired by the water cycle and the movement of clouds?" -- is that trying to be a reference to some existing esolang (esolang in the broad sense, as always)?
18:03:29 <int-e> what, precisely, would constitute a quine (for example, the coding systems for the program itself and for its output might be different; it may also be impossible to construct arbitrary UL programs in the target language (the extreme example is a "language" that only allows the empty program, which is an interpreter that reads an UL program and then executes it...))
18:04:03 <ais523> b_jonas: probably not; it's reminiscent of Homespring but different
18:04:27 <ais523> (I remember someone randomly posting some Homespring on Reddit once; that was a weird experience)
18:04:55 <ais523> int-e: I guess I'm assuming some sort of basic "no cheating" rules
18:05:21 <ais523> in which you can modify the Underload interpreter to take fixed input (but that ends up as part of the program), and there aren't encoding issues (including with Underload's hate of mismatched parens)
18:05:42 <b_jonas> "all commands are based on a metaphor of salmon travelling upriver"
18:06:02 <ais523> wait, have you not seen Homespring before?
18:06:18 <ais523> you really should, it's probably the best thematic esolang there is
18:06:24 <ais523> even if it does have a few issues
18:06:42 <ais523> chef is mostly just a syntax encoding
18:07:13 <ais523> homespring is interesting because it /isn't/ just a syntax encoding
18:08:16 <b_jonas> for something that's not thematic and also not just a syntax encoding, I think ICFP 2006 has one or two such mini-languages featured
18:08:26 <oerjan> ais523> interesting question: assuming you don't care about bracket matching issues, do all languages with an Underload interpreter also have a quine? <-- not necessarily if you cannot give that interpreter constructed input...
18:08:59 <ais523> oerjan: I noticed that loophole and closed it in a later comment
18:09:10 <ais523> <ais523> in which you can modify the Underload interpreter to take fixed input (but that ends up as part of the program), and there aren't encoding issues (including with Underload's hate of mismatched parens)
18:09:27 <b_jonas> it's enough if you can give underload a fixed input
18:09:41 <b_jonas> so you just treat the language as underload with different syntax
18:10:41 <b_jonas> I'll have to look at homespring then
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18:12:11 <izalove> i invented a super simple way to do zsh's numeric glob in bash
18:12:51 <b_jonas> is this CALESYTA a yearly repeating contest?
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18:13:28 <b_jonas> izalove: zsh -c 'rest of the command'?
18:13:55 <ais523> b_jonas: this is the first time it's happened
18:14:00 <izalove> i invented a way to turn a string into a glob
18:14:05 <ais523> the website implies that it may happen again later but isn't certain on the issue
18:14:17 <ais523> right now they aren't even sure whether there's going to be a prize or not
18:14:23 <ais523> so I guess it depends on how successful the contest is
18:14:33 <izalove> which means you can use this command safely and it won't run it if file doesn't exist cmd @(file)
18:14:38 <b_jonas> who cares if there's a prize?
18:14:49 <izalove> and this thing can be adapted to numeric globs
18:14:52 <b_jonas> it's esolang creation, the reward is in doing the thing
18:14:55 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't really mind
18:14:59 <ais523> I'd have create the esolang anyway
18:15:03 <izalove> shopt -s nullglob; echo @(file{12..345})
18:15:06 <b_jonas> if I wanted a prize, I'd deal with non-eso langs
18:15:07 <ais523> but the contest inspires me to make it better
18:15:16 <izalove> guys stop what you're doing
18:15:21 <b_jonas> ais523: exactly, the contest and the publicity that comes with it
18:15:38 <b_jonas> izalove: what? that can't even work
18:16:31 <b_jonas> izalove: the bracket thing expands to separate arguments, so it blows up ... ah! then the @() makes the argument disappear if there's no such file?
18:17:09 <izalove> that's about the most clever piece of bash code i've ever written
18:17:12 <b_jonas> of course, it won't work if you do it with like @(P{1000000..9999999}.JPG) but still useful
18:17:34 <b_jonas> I'll use that for copying a range of original pictures where there are gaps for pictures I deleted on the camera
18:17:38 <b_jonas> I always wanted something like this
18:18:20 <b_jonas> \o/ pity we don't have that bot still \o/
18:22:10 <b_jonas> I'm reading the rules for that contest. It says I have to agree all the material for the esolang can be published on their website, but it doesn't say that the winner will be announced on the website. They can keep the winner in secret,
18:22:25 <b_jonas> and then multiple people can try to claim that the organizers told them they won.
18:22:40 <b_jonas> They will probably not do that though.
18:23:10 <int-e> they even reserve the right to not declare a winner at all
18:23:29 <int-e> (or did, when I read their terms ... a week or two ago)
18:23:35 <b_jonas> int-e: well sure, that makes sense
18:23:49 <b_jonas> if they don't receive any good submissions, then they shouldn't declare a winner
18:23:58 <b_jonas> and at this point they can't be sure they'll receive any
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18:28:20 <zzo38> There is the rule in GURPS if your character is the kind of creature with ten mouths, but it doesn't specify in case some are different such as some don't speak or they have different biting damage from each other.
18:32:01 <\oren\> Bild: Ist Donald Trump ein Sexmonster?
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19:02:02 <wob_jonas> How does this Cale syta contest understand "Originality"? Can you win with a language you've published years ago, if it was original at the time? Can you submit a language someone else has designed years ago?
19:02:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't know; they have an email address, you could ask them
19:02:50 <wob_jonas> is the other site for the channel logs up now?
19:03:01 <ais523> I suspect they want a new language though, or at least one that wasn't previously public
19:03:04 <wob_jonas> it still only has logs till mid-year
19:03:16 <ais523> glogbot hasn't been here for ages
19:04:48 <ais523> inertia, also it's still useful for older logs
19:07:12 <wob_jonas> couldn't we just get whoever maintains the tunes logs to link to the codu logs from the list page/
19:07:28 <wob_jonas> I think it was out of the topic for a while
19:07:38 <ais523> not easily, I think the tunes logs have been on autopilot for years if not decades
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19:28:11 <wob_jonas> argh, I let too much dirty laundry pile up. this would need three loads, but three absolutely won't fit in the weekend
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20:11:23 <HackEgo> mythology//Mythology is the study of myths, moths and mirths.
20:11:31 <HackEgo> Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
20:12:26 <boily> `learn Mothballs are the main ingredient of a traditional soup of eastern european origin.
20:12:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'mothball': Mothballs are the main ingredient of a traditional soup of eastern european origin.
20:13:26 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
20:13:30 <boily> ah, messemblait aussi.
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20:14:00 <boily> mhelloonythellodwarf_
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20:49:12 <wob_jonas> ah yes, that other wisdom entry in hungarian
20:49:39 <wob_jonas> I think those two are the only one, but I haven't searched
20:51:06 <boily> `` grep -EHIi 'ő|ű' wisdom/*
20:51:14 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/b_jonas:b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. \ wisdom/ent:Ents are very useful creatures for the puzzle of writing town names in Hungary as t
20:51:58 <wob_jonas> boily: nah, those are rare. grep for /á|é|gy|sz|ny|\baz\b/ to find them better
20:52:52 <boily> `` find wisdom/ -type f -exec grep -EHIi 'á|é|gy|sz|ny|\baz\b' {} \;
20:53:15 <HackEgo> wisdom/itymology:Itymology is the science of understanding the true meaning of a statement. \ wisdom/french:Le français n'est pas le démon, visitez les Coupeurs. Ne pas couvrir. Meilleur avant! \ wisdom/thé:Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth. \ wisdom/lie bracket:Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not
20:53:31 <boily> «é» is too French.
20:53:45 <wob_jonas> boily: yeah, you have to hand-check it later
20:53:53 <wob_jonas> or maybe add some anti-french exclusion terms
20:53:56 <boily> `` find wisdom/ -type f -exec grep -EHIi 'á|gy|sz|ny|\baz\b' {} | cut -d':' -f1 \;
20:53:57 <HackEgo> cut: ;: No such file or directory \ find: missing argument to `-exec'
20:54:50 <boily> `` for i in wisdom/*; do grep -EHIi 'á|gy|sz|ny|\baz\b' $i | cut -d':' -f1; done
20:55:20 <HackEgo> grep: `?: No such file or directory \ grep: wisdom/: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/6: No such file or directory \
20:55:26 <wob_jonas> why not just grep -l instead of cut/
20:55:42 <boily> because I forgot about that option.
20:56:30 <wob_jonas> boily: I added a short --help text to my grep clone that lists only the more useful options, I can use that as a reference; though some useful options like -x and -w are missing from that clone entirely
20:57:43 <wob_jonas> look at http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/cgrep and grep -A 20 HELP_MESSAGE in it
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21:00:48 <wob_jonas> or maybe grep -A 20 HELP_MESSAGE\ = in it so you don't get the code around where it's used, only the definition
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21:32:33 <lynn> How's this channel been? I keep forgetting to check here ·◡·;
21:33:44 <int-e> (though I don't have much right to complain, I'm not talking much about esoteric stuff either)
21:37:09 * lynn . o O («coi ly.» could be directed at me, too)
21:37:35 <quintopia> yeah. i suppose. if you put the space there.
21:37:46 <quintopia> but i wouldn't have thought to truncate lynn to ly
21:38:12 * boily woggles at lynn. «hellynn!»
21:38:30 <boily> I'm invaded by weird people from Québec City.
21:38:31 <lynn> It's a Lojban joke (I guess since I last talked in here I became the kind of person who makes Lojban jokes)
21:39:23 <wob_jonas> lynn: nah, that wouldn't work, that would look like you're trying to greet boily, not you
21:39:58 <lynn> Well that's precisely the other ½ of this joke!
21:39:59 <wob_jonas> I mean, yeah, if you think more about it ly. would tell it refers to you, but at the surface level
21:40:20 <quintopia> lynn: it was a original a porthello of Lojban "coi" and "boily"
21:40:32 <lynn> "porthello" omg
21:40:52 <wob_jonas> yeah... that's a strange word, I didn't understand it at first
21:41:02 <int-e> . o O ( lynn should give their thoughts a bit more breathing space )
21:42:09 <quintopia> boily: so did beer come out unscathed?
21:42:17 * lynn . o O I('m bad at thought)s
21:43:06 <int-e> lynn: they must be seeping out of your ears by now...
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21:44:00 * lynn . o O ( ) I was gonna say something but it escaped my mind
21:49:34 <boily> quintopia: there was a sudden schedule shift. I was supposed to wednesday the beer, going to grab them now.
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21:55:27 <wob_jonas> lynn: well ok, if it's a deliberate joke so obscure that most people will miss it, then I guess it'd be appropriate on #esoteric
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21:56:44 <wob_jonas> though of course the problem is that you don't get to choose how other people greet you, they do
21:57:22 <wob_jonas> few people greet me as wob_jó naspot for example
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23:39:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49994&oldid=49101 * Challenger5 * (+126)
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23:58:02 <\oren\> no matter how many times i kill ants, or how I kill them, they come back
23:58:58 <\oren\> I've tried squishing them, drowning them, boiling them, burning them, disolving them, and poisoning them
23:59:47 <\oren\> I thought the ants' hive mind would figure out that if they come here they die
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00:34:43 <HackEgo> Mothballs are the main ingredient of a traditional soup of eastern european origin.
00:35:32 <oerjan> `slwd mothball//s/ e/ E/g
00:35:35 <HackEgo> wisdom/mothball//Mothballs are the main ingredient of a traditional soup of Eastern European origin.
00:43:46 <oerjan> @ask boily may i recommend grep -r for your future wisdom/ searches?
00:44:13 <oerjan> `` ls -l /usr/bin/{,r}grep
00:44:15 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/bin/grep: No such file or directory \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 30 Jul 6 2011 /usr/bin/rgrep
00:44:27 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 175488 May 13 2012 /bin/grep
00:44:39 <HackEgo> cat: /use/bin/rgrep: No such file or directory
00:44:45 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \ exec grep -r "$@"
00:46:02 <HackEgo> âELF...........>.....H@.....@.......p¶..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø................. ...8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....¦......¦........ ............°......°a.....°a.....Ì......P........ ...........È......Èa.....Èa........................ ..
00:46:31 <shachaf> oerjan: why are you sending bels to the channel tdnh
00:46:42 <ybden> What is the meaning/purpose of canary?
00:46:53 <oerjan> shachaf: to check that it was a binary, so as to correct this fact.
00:47:10 <oerjan> ybden: it's a canary as in the old mine sense hth
00:47:15 <shachaf> can `? not print binary files twh
00:47:29 <ybden> oerjan: I don't see how
00:47:56 <ybden> No, I mean the canary wisdom
00:48:13 <oerjan> ybden: oh that. it's just a symbol link to the top one.
00:48:26 <ybden> But why did it contain a binary?
00:48:47 <oerjan> because someone thought it was a good idea to make it one.
00:48:56 <oerjan> they were probably wrong.
00:49:50 <oerjan> shachaf: well we're not supposed to but binary files in wisdom/ anyway.
00:50:13 <shachaf> we're not supposed to, but binary files in wisdom/ anyway
00:51:27 <izalove> can we please stop writing elf files to irc?
00:51:33 <izalove> it breaks my weechat every time
00:52:20 <oerjan> well need to occasionally encourage people to get a client that isn't a sitting duck (or canary)
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00:52:27 <oerjan> but perhaps not very often.
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00:53:00 * oerjan hates how he's started dropping words.
00:56:25 <ybden> izalove: what do you mean by 'breaks'?
00:57:26 <izalove> if i use alt+L to get into raw mode, weechat will immediately revert back to normal mode and write 1;2c1;2c or some shit in my input line
00:58:06 <ybden> Yay for stupid escape sequences
00:59:03 <oerjan> wait, is "raw mode" a mode where you display literally whatever bytes were sent to the channel? sounds pretty dangerous.
00:59:48 <ybden> I wouldn't want to do that myself
00:59:49 <izalove> it's a quick way to hide any sidebars
01:00:13 <ybden> izalove: /clear to get rid of the elf maybe?
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01:01:36 <izalove> i'll just unfriend oerjan on foursquare to teach him a lesson
01:01:48 * oerjan is slightly tempted to snark more about this but he'll just end up apologizing against.
01:02:52 <oerjan> you can unfriend me on reddit if you like >:)
01:03:04 <oerjan> it's not like i post much.
01:03:05 <ybden> “I'm going to unfriend an internet person on this social network which I'm not actually a member of”
01:04:03 <oerjan> i don't think stackoverflow has friending, those are the only things resembling social networks i'm on afair.
01:04:18 <izalove> let me unfollow you from github
01:04:59 <oerjan> that'll also be pretty lightweight. i made a pull request to lambdabot the other day though...
01:05:32 <oerjan> and int-e seems to refuse merging it because i won't squash my first and second commits into one
01:06:16 <oerjan> (i'd have to learn how to use git first, i guess)
01:06:46 <izalove> let me show you a great example of how to git
01:06:59 <ybden> *turns into cranky old bloke*
01:07:04 <izalove> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/bash.git/log/?h=devel
01:07:19 <ybden> From the URL alone, I'm assuming this is sarcasm
01:07:41 <izalove> the most useful commit messages you'll ever see
01:13:17 <izalove> i'm watching a cppcon video and there's a bald fat guy and he's been reading every value in a table with times and percentages in the past 10 minutes
01:23:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mcparadip * New user account
01:26:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49995&oldid=49234 * Albedo * (-39) /* Arithmetic operations */ Instruction M: minor error corrected
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02:31:49 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rykmwn0SMWU they're really good at commercials
02:34:42 <ybden> :D they put a 3.5mm headphone jack as a feature
02:35:28 <ybden> That is a very good commercial
02:35:35 <ybden> Funny how it basically looks like an iphone now
02:35:41 <ybden> but, sort of better
02:35:51 <ybden> “Did they just throw shade at the iPhone 7” yes, yes they did
02:36:47 <alercah> yeah the headphone jack thing is hilarious
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02:47:16 <izalove> blue phone looks like a toy tho
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03:02:17 <zzo38> GURPS has stuff about different comprehension levels of languages, as well as possibility for different comprehension level of writing with speeching (something Dungeons&Dragons doesn't have, but it ought to!), and even sign language. However, what Dungeons&Dragons does have but GURPS doesn't have, is specification of what languages share an alphabet.
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06:51:18 <hppavilion[1]> (Presumably it will be based on brand-gnu technology. The hard 'g' messes that wordplay up a bit, doesn't it?)
06:51:31 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 12h 55m 38s ago: * hppavilion[1] obtains lead foil hat, as tinfoil will not be strong enough <-- you need to go heavier. plutonium foil is where it's at.
06:51:31 <lambdabot> oerjan said 14h 43m 42s ago: your addition to `? scow ruins the joke, so i removed it.
06:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't set all the fonts to obnoxious bright #00FF00 green
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07:03:54 <hppavilion[1]> Horrifying and going to kill coherent human communication
07:04:18 <\oren\> ✆✇✀₶₷₸₹₺⎖⎗⎘⎙⎚⎌⎍⎎⎏⎐⎑⎒⎓⎔⚶⚷⚸✹✺✻✼✽✾㆐㆑㆒㆓㆔㆕㆖㆗㆘㆙㆚㆛㆜㆝㆞
07:05:24 <\oren\> I'm working on filling some coverage gaps
07:06:20 <\oren\> the above are the important characters, there are some others
07:06:40 <\oren\> but they are invisible characters
07:06:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Then why do 8 of the characters already render for me?
07:08:06 <\oren\> probably you have another font that supports them
07:08:26 <\oren\> In this release I also added tengwar
07:08:29 <\oren\>
07:08:53 <\oren\> the tengwar of feanor, used to write elvish languages
07:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> (zero-width spaces, hairline spaces, and three-per-em spaces are a big problem for monospace it would seem)
07:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Ah. Laaaaaaaaame for the Unicode foundation
07:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, would making shift+<space> insert a newline be a terrible, terrible idea?
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07:17:51 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: my font already includes a lot of spaces
07:18:30 <\oren\> they are simply displayed as small text telling you what kind of space it is
07:20:54 <HackEgo> U+2000 EN QUAD \ UTF-8: e2 80 80 UTF-16BE: 2000 Decimal:   \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ Decomposition: 2002
07:21:20 <HackEgo> U+2001 EM QUAD \ UTF-8: e2 80 81 UTF-16BE: 2001 Decimal:   \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ Decomposition: 2003
07:26:21 <hppavilion[1]> (But occasionally they inexplicably start working again)
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08:14:11 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Logic is just another tool that the true scotsMan uses to keep you down.
08:14:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'logic': Logic is just another tool that the true scotsMan uses to keep you down.
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09:10:04 <hppavilion[1]> http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/162/501/182.jpg is somehow related to CADbortion/loss, but I have no idea how
09:16:31 <shachaf> do you think that wisdom entry improves the wisdom database
09:17:15 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
09:18:05 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm yet to see an actual definitive statement as to what is good for and what is bad for wisdom)
09:18:36 <shachaf> the more similar to oerjan's taste, the better it is
09:20:49 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently it's exact form, but I don't quite see it
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09:26:26 <hppavilion[1]> Like, apparently any use of the form <<[ | ] [ | | ] / [ | | ] [ | _ ]>> is somehow a hilarious reference
09:27:06 <shachaf> It's not particularly hilarious, and it would be best if it wasn't referred to.
09:29:08 <shachaf> (Which is what you were doing.)
09:29:31 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I was complaining about how weird and obscure it was
09:29:41 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( `learn_ban <name>: `learn will no longer ever learn about <name> )
09:29:53 <hppavilion[1]> OK, never speaking of this again starting....... NOW!
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13:01:36 <ais523> https://www.reddit.com/r/conlangs/comments/4ghmmt/emmental_is_an_esoteric_programming_language/d2iec1v?context=1
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14:12:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quick dudley * New user account
14:39:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49996&oldid=49974 * Quick dudley * (+203) /* Introductions */
14:39:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kinetosis]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49997 * Quick dudley * (+4469) Created page with "'''Kinetosis''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] descended from SICKBAY. ==Summary== A program consists of a series of lines. Each line consists of a line number (whi..."
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14:42:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kinetosis]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49998&oldid=49997 * Quick dudley * (+4) Link to SICKBAY
14:43:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49999&oldid=49970 * BlueOkiris * (+55) /* Op Codes */
14:43:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50000&oldid=49989 * Quick dudley * (+16) /* K */
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15:08:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50001&oldid=49999 * BlueOkiris * (-7) /* Interpreter/Compiler */
15:10:26 <myname> why do people keep making brainfuck substitutions
15:19:30 <ybden> for the same reason that people use JS so much
15:19:35 <ybden> It's terrible, and it's popular
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15:27:23 <myname> shouldn't jsfuck be more popular then? :D
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17:47:09 <izalove> that's not terrible enough
17:47:46 <myname> it underlines the terrible parts of js pretty good
17:51:06 <ybden> I don't think it's popular enough either
17:52:51 <myname> it is pretty important for people that try to prevent xss through word filters
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17:57:49 <myname> that's a real life security issue
18:03:43 <Zarutian> myname: xss stands for what in this context?
18:07:56 <pecan> cross site scripting hth hth
18:17:00 <zzo38> JavaScript is mainly my scripting language of choice
18:17:34 <zzo38> And I do not think it is so terrible; many improvements have been made, although I also think of a few other things that should be added
18:17:38 <myname> well, yeah, but you are zzo38
18:21:17 <Zarutian> when I google it only blogspam is returned that says it is such an problem but never an explanation of it.
18:22:37 <zzo38> Did you try Wikipedia?
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18:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Zarutian, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-site_scripting
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18:31:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CALESYTA 2016]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50002 * B jonas * (+358) contest
18:41:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiLambda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50003 * Slnetaiga * (+2234) Created
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18:44:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50004&oldid=50000 * Slnetaiga * (+15) Added MiLambda
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18:48:22 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover, zzo38: yes but it didnt shed too much of a light for me on the thing.
18:50:01 <Zarutian> btw, Same Origin 'Policy' is based upon an flawed assumptions on what 'same origin' means.
18:52:25 <Zarutian> I found it very difficult to consistently instruct browser to treat certain embedded iframes as diffrent 'origin' for every instance of such, even though their scripts happen to be stored on the same server.
18:57:05 <HackEgo> Marriage was made legal in the United States on 2015-06-26
19:20:09 <wob_jonas> ... that statement didn't make sense until I realized it's the other meaning of iframes
19:21:15 <fizzie> And *that* statement didn't make sense until I realized it had nothing to do with the marriage thing.
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20:39:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50005&oldid=50001 * BlueOkiris * (+73) /* Op Codes */
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20:51:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50006&oldid=50005 * BlueOkiris * (+3597) /* Example Programs */
20:53:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50007&oldid=50006 * BlueOkiris * (+15) /* Op Codes */
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21:08:35 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
21:09:14 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 20h 25m 28s ago: may i recommend grep -r for your future wisdom/ searches?
21:09:14 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 13h 59m 7s ago: Now I have pizzas too mwahahahahahaha
21:09:48 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan. your recommendation is duly noted. hth, hand.
21:10:18 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] hppavellon[1]. do you like anchovies?
21:10:35 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] sorry, it was an @ask, not an @tell.
21:11:27 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA! THE BEER IS HAD! THANK YOU!
21:13:08 <HackEgo> gamemanj//gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here. He will overthink everything, except whether overthinking is wrong.
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21:33:25 <boily> moonheart08: mhelloony. how many moons do you have?
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21:46:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50008&oldid=50007 * BlueOkiris * (+174) /* Guess the Number (4-bit).nor */
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22:23:16 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 12m 58s ago: hppavellon[1]. do you like anchovies?
22:23:16 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 12m 41s ago: sorry, it was an @ask, not an @tell.
22:24:10 <hppavilion[1]> boily: No. Anyone who does shall be... quietly respected in their personal preferences, even though I disagree with their tastes
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22:25:44 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any more up-to-date databases similar to http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/ I could switch to?
22:26:55 <wob_jonas> hpp, dunno, try http://unicode.scarfboy.com/ or just the api functions from the libicu library http://site.icu-project.org/
22:27:06 <wob_jonas> the latter is definitely up to date (if you get the latest version obviously)
22:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe I'll just need to make my own little personal server for it...
22:28:31 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you are wrong, from a completely subjective and biased point of view. also, that means more anchovies for me ^^
22:29:00 <hppavilion[1]> boily: What about pineapple on pizza? Can we agree that THAT is terrible?
22:29:40 <wob_jonas> no! there's nothing wrong with pineapple on pizza, as long as the meat and cheese and tomato sauce are still also there
22:30:12 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, actually, I've never had it. I feel like it might be fairly good though, assuming the pineapple isn't too large
22:30:14 <myname> i prefer peanut butter instead of tomato sauce on most pizzas
22:30:26 <myname> haven't tested it with pineapple though
22:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ...I could see it, assuming the cheez is different too
22:31:07 <myname> peanut butter, marinated chicken, paprika, mozarella, pepper
22:31:11 <wob_jonas> in fact, pineapples also work without the pizza, on slice of fried turkey or chicken meat with cheese melted on it
22:31:15 <myname> great pizza, would recommend
22:31:28 <hppavilion[1]> (To be fair, my father frequently eats sandwiches including ham & jelly)
22:31:29 <wob_jonas> myname: nah, peanut butter is too american for me
22:31:42 <boily> pineapple on pizza is great!
22:32:01 <myname> wob_jonas: think of it as an easy version of peanut sauce
22:32:06 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'll have to try it sometime. My pizza today is just pepperoni though.
22:32:26 <boily> spinach on pizza is quite good too.
22:32:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
22:32:50 <int-e> spinach is good, don't like pineapple, nor thuna...
22:33:06 <wob_jonas> how about pizza with bologna sauce and fried ground meat?
22:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> Has anybody ever actually made a pizza where the topping is smaller pizzas?
22:33:21 <boily> wob_jonas: ooooh, a québécoise!
22:33:25 <myname> also, i have to try pizza on naan onstead of pizza dough
22:33:27 <hppavilion[1]> Theoretically possible, but possibly not very good
22:33:32 <int-e> wob_jonas: that sounds unusual but should work
22:33:40 <wob_jonas> I like that, but only if it's made well, and some pizza places don't.
22:33:43 <int-e> (there must be cheese on top of course)
22:33:48 <myname> hppavilion[1]: quite easy to do, not really good
22:34:13 <myname> also, pizza with pasta on top is terrible
22:34:18 <hppavilion[1]> Have we ever polled #esoteric's cat-per-person ratio?
22:34:38 <int-e> myname: or french fries
22:34:44 <boily> there's that place near home that does a mac'n'cheese pizza.
22:34:52 <wob_jonas> how about sweet corn (maize) on pizza?
22:35:02 <boily> hppavilion[1]: no cat. I can't cat, because allergies.
22:35:03 <myname> int-e: never had these. sounds not very delicious but at least way easier to eat than pasta
22:35:17 <hppavilion[1]> boily: If I had cat allergies, I'd have cats anyway and it would be worth it
22:35:25 <wob_jonas> I have no cat. My brother does have one.
22:35:32 <myname> wob_jonas: sweet corn on everything
22:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> (especially if I lived in Canada where they don't cost $500 for no reason)
22:35:54 <int-e> wob_jonas: well, corn should not be the main topping
22:36:02 <myname> boily: i saw a recipe for mac&cheese-muffins i have to try some time
22:36:05 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Maybe #esoteric needs an official international currency to discuss cost in )
22:36:34 <int-e> (uh now I'm worried that there might be popcorn pizza)
22:36:54 <myname> int-e: that might work on peanut butter
22:36:56 <wob_jonas> int-e: sure. I need meat on every pizza, in fact, I need meat or some ostensibly meat-based product in every main course of the day
22:37:04 <boily> hppavilion[1]: CAD is a good currency. it has the Queen on it!
22:37:07 <wob_jonas> (fish and liver also count as meat)
22:37:15 <myname> peanut butter, popcorn, pumpkin pie spice. should work out
22:37:32 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I was going to go with something international, like the price of 1 gram of reactor-grade uranium
22:37:49 <int-e> wob_jonas: carnivore?
22:38:08 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I have never understood when people refer to fish as not meat.
22:38:09 <myname> .oO(ehat a wonderful day for canada and therefore for the rest of the world)
22:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> I really want English w-words for ordinality and cardinality
22:39:05 <wob_jonas> also most sausage (except vegetarian one) and canned meat and párizsi and similar count as ostensibly meat-based product in a pinch, though of course I prefer real meat for main course most of the time
22:39:52 <hppavilion[1]> (To be clear, 'whount' is pronounced with an [h], 'whum' is always pronounced with a [hw], even when you aren't being fancy, just because it sounds better here)
22:40:18 <myname> I really want English to be left alone by hppavilion[1]
22:40:29 <wob_jonas> can't you just use "how many', "how manieth", "how many times" and "how manieth times"?
22:40:43 <int-e> wob_jonas: what about sea food? (say, shrimp)
22:41:06 <myname> wob_jonas: that's not hip because it does not start with a w
22:41:21 <myname> obviously, that is a requirement, bevause reasons
22:41:24 <boily> shrimp transcends the concept of meat.
22:41:46 <alercah> `learn shrimp transcends the concept of meat
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22:41:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'shrimp': shrimp transcends the concept of meat
22:42:04 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't fancy that. it would count as meat I think, but since I don't eat it, I don't care. here we tease frenchmen and other foreigners for eating crab, shrimp, octopus, snail, and stuff.
22:42:05 <int-e> or salmon, that also works for me on pizza
22:42:41 <moonheart08> hppavilion[1], moonheart08 is my most common username on other sites and systems. yes
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22:43:20 <hppavilion[1]> nickswitching is annoying and confusing. Preferably, your nick should be the same with an occasional backup that is clearly linked
22:43:27 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. hppavilion[2] is clearly an alt for hppavilion[1])
22:43:29 <wob_jonas> there's also the problem that most fish and seafood are somewhat expensive in Hungary (actually it's the reverse, all grains and fruit and dairy and normal meat based food are cheap in Hungary, but that makes it look like fish are expensive)
22:44:08 <myname> hppavilion[1]: language messing is annoying and confusing. preferably, your langiage matches with that of all the other people around you
22:44:29 <boily> cheese is expensive here :(
22:44:37 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I wasn't going to incorporate them into english, it was just a thought
22:44:42 <wob_jonas> so when I visit my brother in Sweden, I eat tasty fish, because every food is expensive there, but fish isn't more expensive than the other food
22:44:43 <myname> cheease should be expensive everywhere
22:45:22 <myname> because it is expensive to make
22:45:49 <hppavilion[1]> Weird to think that wob_jonas (along with everyone else on #esoteric) actually has family rather than just being a disembodied mind floating in the interwebz...
22:46:20 <hppavilion[1]> Quick question: When sarcastically referring to the internet historically, do you say "interarpz" or "arpawebz" or what?
22:46:34 * boily mapoles hppavilion[1] in the ætheral bits
22:46:52 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, for ARPANET; other bizarre and ancient precursors were probably available)
22:47:41 <int-e> boily: hmm, you made me look at the logs but was that really mapole-worthy?
22:48:20 <boily> int-e: my usual mapole victim isn't currently there, so I have to do a few practice swings to keep in shape.
22:49:34 <hppavilion[1]> For reference: e can be defined as basket((+), 0, inf, nocond, lambda n: 1/fact(n)), and ə can be defined as 1+basket((+), 0, inf, lambda n: n != 1, lambda n: 1/subfact(n))
22:50:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Basket being a generalization of big-sigma and big-pi (and big-union/intersection/etc))
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23:34:24 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, so ARPANET is etymologically related to DARPA. As I thought
23:35:44 <hppavilion[1]> My dad's roommate refuses to believe the internet in any form existed before the year 2000
23:35:50 * int-e looks for cover from ricocheting mapoles.
23:37:28 <oerjan> ricochetting from what
23:37:37 <lambdabot> boily said 2h 27m 48s ago: hellørjan. your recommendation is duly noted. hth, hand.
23:38:00 <int-e> oerjan: from boily's target practice earlier
23:38:29 <myname> https://twitter.com/JamieSkella/status/787043558410813440
23:39:15 <oerjan> hm apparently both one and two t's are allowed.
23:39:28 <int-e> myname: I would prefer the conference to be *for* chatbots, not *about* them.
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23:55:07 <hppavilion[1]> The proper solution to http://xkcd.com/541/ is to use the alternative square-emoji
23:55:17 <boily> quintopia: it's a little bit hard. seems edible, but I can't eat anymore today... dim sum happened.
23:55:39 <myname> that's different semantics
23:58:09 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a difference between :) and :] I don't know aobut?
23:58:35 <hppavilion[1]> :] looks a bit more fat-kid-in-a-candy-store than :), I guess?
00:00:58 <lambdabot> PAMR 162253Z 10SM CLR 04/M12 A2905 RMK AO2 SLP839 T00441122 $
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00:05:52 <Taneb> Tanebot: df iiisso
00:06:24 <Taneb> I have a bot now, for the first time in a long time
00:06:34 <hppavilion[1]> Quiz: What temperature is twice as hot as 300 Fahrenheit?
00:07:23 <shachaf> Taneb: your cheeky answer has been logged hth
00:07:41 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], Farhenheit measures log_2 heat
00:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Is the fact that I didn't say 'degrees' significant or something?
00:08:22 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], no, I'm talking out my arse
00:08:40 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Because the answer is 1059.67 Fahrenheit. hth.
00:08:51 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], explain why
00:08:59 <Taneb> myname, nah, just something I made
00:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: You have to first convert to Rankine (the Fahrenheit equivalent of Celsius's Kelvin) for it to make sense
00:09:33 <shachaf> temperatures go down forever
00:09:37 <shachaf> you gotta pick where to put the 0
00:09:58 <shachaf> see Taneb's comment above hth
00:10:17 <hppavilion[1]> So you convert to Rankine (add 459.67 degrees), THEN multiply by the factor, then convert back by subtracting 459.67
00:10:42 <myname> Taneb didn't say anything about absolute zero?
00:10:54 <boily> can Taneb reach absolute zero?
00:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> You can get arbitrarily close to absolute 0 without ever reaching it
00:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Which, truth be told, makes a little sense physically speaking)
00:11:20 <myname> the value of this unit, yeah
00:11:23 <izalove> on linux is there any way to force syncing for any write of a certain process?
00:11:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Otherwise you're incorporating the arbitrary basis for 0 Fahrenheit implicitly)
00:11:39 <myname> but it does not say anything about not having an absolut zero
00:13:02 <hppavilion[1]> Logarithms have a limit at 0 iirc (assuming you don't shift the argument)
00:14:01 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, there's a 180 degree separation between freezing and boiling for water in fahrenheit, so saying 'degrees' makes some sense... if we shift fahrenheit down by 32 degrees (Farenheight), then saying the temperature is pi radians farenheight makes perfect sense- it's just boiling)
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00:17:21 <myname> hppavilion[1]: a unit not being able tp express a value does not make it nonexistant
00:18:17 -!- Tanebot has quit (Quit: Tanebot AWAY!).
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00:18:47 <hppavilion[1]> (To express time and distance in the same unit, they simply need to be related by speed-of-light... easy...)
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00:26:00 <zzo38> Apparently, you can now use chess clocks in a pokemon battle.
00:34:21 <oerjan> <Taneb> hppavilion[1], no, I'm talking out my arse <-- you can argue that entropy is a logarithmic scale, and iirc temperature is its integral over energy. don't know if you can get quite to temperature being logarithmic, though.
00:35:15 <shachaf> the integral of a logarithm is not a logarithm hth
00:36:53 <oerjan> wait, i've got that backwards.
00:39:03 <oerjan> the derivative of entropy is the derivative of energy divided by temperature. unless i remember that too wrong.
00:39:30 <oerjan> * (the derivative of energy) divided by temperature
00:40:07 <oerjan> for entropy given by adding heat, anyway.
00:42:21 <oerjan> `le/rn third law of thermodynamics/The third law of thermodynamics says that Taneb cannot reach absolute zero.
00:42:25 <HackEgo> Learned «third law of thermodynamics»
00:43:21 <oerjan> just clearing that up.
00:44:11 <shachaf> `? the third law of thermodynamic
00:44:11 <HackEgo> the third law of thermodynamic? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:44:44 <shachaf> Oh, right, it goes the other way.
00:45:46 <boily> quintopia: I am being stouted. it is made of good.
00:46:42 <shachaf> oerjan: fortunately i completely messed that up
00:46:56 <shachaf> i was talking about the derivative of logarithm anyway
00:47:02 <shachaf> just don't listen to anything i saw
00:48:01 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
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00:50:13 <ybden> boily: How do you feel about this?
00:51:20 <oerjan> `learn Sanity is the defining property of boily. Taneb invented it.
00:51:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'sanity': Sanity is the defining property of boily. Taneb invented it.
00:52:03 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:52:20 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s/progress/progress, sanity/
00:52:22 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:53:37 <oerjan> progress and sanity go well together, i think.
00:56:30 <boily> ybden: I feel misaligned with topical reality, really.
00:57:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: this channel may contain traces of sanity | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
00:58:32 <ybden> I'm not sure I feel comfortable with there being traces of sanity here
00:58:47 <ybden> boily: We may need to correct this
00:58:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: This channel may contain traces of sanity | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
00:59:03 <oerjan> yep, it needed capitalization
01:00:03 <oerjan> ybden: it's ok they're mostly around the mapole and you wouldn't want to go too close to that anyway.
01:00:21 <boily> as a Notable Capitalist, I approve.
01:00:34 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
01:01:00 <ybden> `? thwackamacallit
01:01:01 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
01:01:16 <ybden> Excellent. I feel my sanity decreasing already
01:01:25 <ybden> oerjan: thanks for the advice
01:01:55 <ybden> This is a good definition, for something that doesn't exist
01:02:35 <ybden> Did Taneb invent the mapole?
01:02:47 <ybden> Well, given that he also invented sanity, that probably wouldn't surprise me
01:02:55 <ybden> Given that's where the sanity is
01:02:59 <oerjan> `learn A corkscrew is a downwards spiral of doom.
01:03:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'corkscrew': A corkscrew is a downwards spiral of doom.
01:03:33 <oerjan> ybden: please don't confuse the mapole with sanity tdnh
01:03:42 <boily> `learn A spork is something to be randomly held of in front of penguins.
01:03:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'spork': A spork is something to be randomly held of in front of penguins.
01:04:14 <ybden> Why should sporks be held in front of penguins randomly?
01:04:31 <boily> `` sed -i 's/of in/in/' wisdom/spork
01:04:39 <oerjan> `? tdnh is surprisingly helpful.
01:04:57 <boily> ybden: a reference to a copypasta.
01:05:22 <oerjan> `learn A corkscrew is a downwards spiral of doom. See mapole.
01:05:24 <HackEgo> Relearned 'corkscrew': A corkscrew is a downwards spiral of doom. See mapole.
01:05:36 <ybden> boily: Ah, penguin of doom?
01:05:47 <boily> ybden: the one and only.
01:05:58 <ybden> We have a markov bot in an irc channel named that
01:06:06 <ybden> Didn't know it was a copypasta before then
01:07:10 <boily> . o O ( damn, that beer is strong... oh, 12.5%. je peux bien mélanger mes prépositions... )
01:07:20 <oerjan> for pasta you really want a real fork, sporks won't do.
01:07:35 <ybden> I should get a spork.
01:08:21 <boily> is there such a thing as tactical chopsticks?
01:09:00 <ybden> If there isn't, I think there ought to be
01:09:10 <ybden> I've never used chopsticks tactically before
01:11:29 <boily> `le/rn ybden/Nothing much is known about them, except a potential interest in warfare cutlery.
01:13:35 <oerjan> `slwd ybden//s/them/ybden/
01:13:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/ybden//Nothing much is known about ybden, except a potential interest in warfare cutlery.
01:14:05 <ybden> Do wisdoms have to contain their subject?
01:14:22 <boily> it's better style, and easier when they get PDFed.
01:14:23 <oerjan> unless it's essential to the joke that they don't.
01:14:52 <ybden> How frequent does the conversion to PDF occur?
01:15:04 <ybden> oerjan: Makes sense
01:15:10 <ybden> Is there such a wisdom?
01:15:37 <HackEgo> You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee.
01:16:11 <HackEgo> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
01:16:22 <boily> ybden: do you have a github account?
01:16:44 <ybden> boily: I do. With varying degrees of quality of code within.
01:16:44 <boily> the pdfification happens, what... once in a while, give or take a few months here and there...
01:16:55 <oerjan> ybden: the same goes for proper capitalization and punctuation btw.
01:17:05 <boily> ybden: what is it?
01:17:21 <ybden> boily: I give you one guess.
01:17:32 <otherbot> moony: Command groups (use list <group>): general capitalism chanop fun main sandbox tpt track
01:17:51 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; find -type f | cut -c 3- | while read f; do grep "$f" "$f" &> /dev/null && echo "$f"; done
01:18:20 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; find -type f | head -n 30 | cut -c 3- | while read f; do grep "$f" "$f" &> /dev/null || echo "$f"; done
01:18:22 <HackEgo> 6 random numbers \ ¯(°_o)/¯ \ umlaut \ quote \ damnation \ heck \ nooga \ irc \ post-industrial semi-punk nekronoise ambient happy hardcore triphop shoegaze \ cyberiad \ rincewind \ itymology \ coruscant \ french \ drone \ elendil \ scotland \ ethanol \ monoidal category
01:18:34 <oerjan> shachaf: might want to be case insensitive
01:18:44 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; find -type f | cut -c 3- | while read f; do grep -i "$f" "$f" &> /dev/null || echo "$f"; done | wc -l
01:18:47 <ybden> boily: I also have a GitLab account by the same name, but they're mostly both the same
01:19:03 <boily> ybden: you have been invited. you shall become a cocoonspirator.
01:19:08 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; find -type f | wc -l
01:19:23 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
01:19:42 <ybden> Oho, this is a private collaboration
01:20:11 * FireFly wraps ybden in caterpillar silk
01:21:16 * moony wraps FireFly in polonium foil
01:21:29 * ybden wraps moony in cowhide
01:22:05 <ybden> Isn't that radioactive?
01:22:57 <ybden> Oho. I recall correctly.
01:23:09 <ybden> More importantly, where on Earth did you obtain said foil from?
01:24:17 <oerjan> not only is it radioactive, put iirc it's highly poisonous and was used to kill that russian in england putin didn't like
01:25:03 <oerjan> so the obvious answer is: russia.
01:30:25 <ybden> `learn molum is the inverse function of ybden.
01:30:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'molum': molum is the inverse function of ybden.
01:30:40 <ybden> I think that worked
01:30:55 <ybden> From my limited experience of wisdom and learning.
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01:32:13 <oerjan> after a lot of experience, we have learned to make most of the wisdom commands say exactly what result they create.
01:33:33 <oerjan> actually `le/rn and `le//rn don't quite, and although it's usually obvious, there's a small trap if you confuse them.
01:33:51 <HackEgo> sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "$verb «$key»"
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01:35:07 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 17 Dec 9 2015 le/rn -> ../bin/slashlearn
01:36:38 <oerjan> perhaps i should just bite the bullet and make it the same format.
01:36:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
01:38:07 <oerjan> `sled bin/slashlearn//s/«.*/'$key': $value"/
01:38:10 <HackEgo> bin/slashlearn//sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "$verb '$key': $value"
01:38:47 <oerjan> `le/rn testing//Now it should be quite obvious.
01:38:49 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': /Now it should be quite obvious.
01:39:13 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:39:23 <\oren\> 699d79867461b209fc5e5d7f9dd9dd1a prediction1
01:39:28 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
01:39:40 <HackEgo> oerjän oerjän fizzïe evilips̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän
01:40:02 * ybden suddenly realises why the umlauts are there
01:40:08 <\oren\> I'm making a prediction using a hash. On november 9th I'll reveal the original text
01:40:32 <oerjan> ybden: they used to be ^O's but that didn't work for everyone.
01:40:55 <ybden> What kind of IRC client would notice highlights like that is beyond me
01:40:59 <oerjan> hexchat strips formatting before checking pings
01:43:48 <\oren\> let's all play a game! write your predictions for november 8th into a file, and post the md5sum of that file! on november 8th, we'll post the original files to see hwo made a good prediction!
01:44:04 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FLAT CHICKEN).
01:44:23 * ybden contemplates why the chicken might be flat
01:45:37 <oerjan> i predict that after november 9, this channel's sanity will increase a significant amount.
01:46:27 <ybden> oerjan: You're supposed to not tell us
01:46:36 <oerjan> ybden: i guess boily stepped on it. it's inevitable, with all the chickens he keeps around.
01:46:53 <oerjan> ybden: i predict that i don't care :P
01:46:57 <\oren\> oerjan: no, you write it into a secret file and then post the hash
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01:47:24 <\oren\> this way you can prove you predicted it beforehand
01:47:36 <ybden> What about irc logs
01:47:41 <oerjan> i understand perfectly, and still don't care :P
01:47:47 <quintopia> oerjan: do you think election season is affecting sanity?
01:48:05 <ybden> Since, if we're relying on irc logs for the hashes, then just putting the predictions in the channel will probably be as good
01:48:06 <oerjan> quintopia: absolutely.
01:48:57 <\oren\> November 9, 2016 will be marked by violent protests across the united states.
01:48:57 <\oren\> I wrote this on October 16.
01:49:07 -!- moony has changed nick to [moony].
01:49:13 -!- [moony] has changed nick to `moony`.
01:50:20 <\oren\> I predict that this will happen regardless of the election's result
01:50:49 <quintopia> i predict i will get drunk during that week
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02:14:38 <HackEgo> Logic is just another tool that the true scotsMan uses to keep you down.
02:19:36 <oerjan> `learn Logic is just another way the true Scotsman is keeping you down.
02:19:39 <HackEgo> Relearned 'logic': Logic is just another way the true Scotsman is keeping you down.
02:20:08 <oerjan> shachaf: is that enough taste for your taste?
02:20:32 <shachaf> my taste isn't the one in question here hth
02:20:52 <oerjan> don't make me `revert it
02:34:22 <oerjan> `slwd marriage//s/6$/6./
02:34:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/marriage//Marriage was made legal in the United States on 2015-06-26.
02:40:20 <shachaf> oerjan: s/6//g on you slwd hth
02:44:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i was preemptively doing that in case someone else had already fixed it
03:18:30 <zzo38> What thing of Nov.8 is it necessary to predict?
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03:37:26 <zzo38> Is this Magic: the Gathering card is OK: Scry 1. Fateseal 10. Scry 10. Draw a card. Look at top thirteen cards of opponent's library; put ten of them into opponent's hand and the rest into opponent's graveyard.
03:40:15 <zzo38> Can be used only during your own end step or cleanup step.
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04:05:53 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: This channel may contain Planck-scale traces of sanity | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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04:25:36 <HackEgo> Sanity is the defining property of boily. Taneb invented it.
04:26:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: now it only remains to see whether the planck unit for sanity is tiny or enormous
04:28:54 <zzo38> Well, it says it "may contain", so, you wouldn't know anyways. Especially if you have an imaginary number of sanity.
04:37:46 <ybden> How does one go about developing an esoteric pizza?
04:38:01 <\oren\> zzo38: the presidential election of the USA will be held on november eighth. I'm making predictions about it
04:38:22 <oerjan> ybden: well first you take a brainfuck pizza recipe...
04:38:48 * ybden chases after oerjan, enraged
04:39:04 * ybden grabs her chopsticks
04:39:15 * oerjan hides behind one of the moles on his lawn
04:39:15 <\oren\> I had a bacon, chicken and italian sausge pizza the other day
04:39:36 <zzo38> You should need to injure the candidates so that they will not recover in time until a month later, or whatever number of months necessary that they can't be president
04:40:04 <ybden> Wouldn't killing them be simpler?
04:40:21 <ybden> I mean, if you're able to significantly injure them, then killing would only be a step further
04:40:39 * oerjan cannot keep track of all the females in the channel any longer :(
04:41:47 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
04:41:52 <pikhq> They're taking over, or something. Oh dear, what a disaster.
04:42:09 <zzo38> I think if you kill them then they still can't do stuff other than being president. Also you can be in jail and some technicalities will nevertheless not stop the problems it causes, but if is just injury it might not cause that problem? I don't even know the law of United States anyways
04:42:28 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
04:42:32 <ybden> zzo38: if you kill them before becoming president, then they can't get elected
04:43:00 <oerjan> ok i guess boily is male. for now.
04:43:19 <\oren\> argh there are still many thousands of characters not in my font
04:43:36 <ybden> Such are the troubles of a font-developer
04:44:10 <zzo38> How many characters do you want to add into your font in total?
04:44:49 <\oren\> well I have 20 thousand, or 9 thousand if you don't count the hangul, and I plan on adding at least another 2000
04:45:02 <ybden> \oren\: Which format is it in? BDF?
04:45:17 <\oren\> but it's generated from a bdf
04:46:10 <ybden> I meant which format it was written in
04:47:08 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
04:47:34 <zzo38> How to download the bdf?
04:48:24 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/neoletters-16.bdf
04:48:52 <zzo38> You should to add it the link there too
04:50:51 <ybden> I should rewrite my bdf parser in c
04:50:58 <ybden> well, I say 'parser'
04:51:24 <ybden> What I really mean is something which converted a bdf file into a c array for convenient usage
04:52:20 <ybden> You're creating the font in fontforge, not writing the bdf by hand?
04:53:29 <\oren\> yeah. the first housand or so characters were made on a font making web program, however
04:53:58 <\oren\> https://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/630397/neoletters
04:54:11 <\oren\> but that version is now far far out of date
04:54:46 <ybden> I used fontstruct in the past
04:55:51 <ybden> \oren\: how do you do the red stuff, in a bdf?
04:57:05 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <wob_jonas> how about sweet corn (maize) on pizza? <-- hm my usual restaurant has a pizza with chicken, pesto and maize. it's quite interesting...
04:57:17 <\oren\> it's red on the web page, not in the actual font
04:58:24 <\oren\> anyway you just name it like uniNNNN and, there's nothing reall special that you do
04:58:44 <ybden> \oren\: how does that work?
04:59:04 <ybden> \oren\: I thought that you'd got part of the font coloured, and some of it not
04:59:19 <\oren\> no, the web page just uses css to make it red
04:59:53 <\oren\> pre > span.m91, :not(span) > span.m91 {color:red;}
05:00:54 <\oren\> <span class="m91"> </span>
05:10:03 <HackEgo> shrimp transcends the concept of meat
05:10:17 <oerjan> `slwd shrimp//s/s/S/;s/$/./
05:10:19 <HackEgo> wisdom/shrimp//Shrimp transcends the concept of meat.
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05:35:00 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5dp8mzRPio is awesome every time
05:40:54 <shachaf> oerjan: What's that entry about?
05:41:36 <HackEgo> radiohead//radiohead is "rock music"
05:41:41 <HackEgo> xkcq//"xkcq" is worth 8 more points than "xkcd" in Scrabble, or a whopping 30 more if both are played optimally on a triple word score. Nyahhh.
05:41:51 <HackEgo> siberia//Siberia is the capital of Finland. It's where the Fields Medal was first synthesised.
05:42:04 <HackEgo> usa//USA apparently doesn't stand for United State Automaton.
05:42:09 <HackEgo> roujo//Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
05:42:18 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e b_jonäs
05:42:29 <zzo38> As far as I know neither "xkcd" nor "xkcq" is valid words for Scrabble
05:42:36 <HackEgo> c++//Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
05:42:52 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
05:43:06 <HackEgo> D is a letter in the alphabet! It's also the name of a programming language.
05:43:13 <HackEgo> APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language.
05:43:53 <shachaf> APL is to algorithms what LISP is to lists hth
05:44:14 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe a tricameral legislature- House, Senate, and Commons (chosen by random lottery from the general population)- would be a good idea...
05:44:32 <shachaf> It seems way too spammy, whatever it is.
05:45:19 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill
05:46:00 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yeah, that's why I'd go with tricameral rather than replacing the elected legislature
05:50:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, case law is an annoying system; could we make a setup where case law becomes statutory through some transmogrification method?)
05:51:13 <shachaf> i propose a system where oerjan is world dictator
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05:57:52 <zzo38> I propose the system that nobody is allowed to be the world dictator
06:01:22 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e oerjän ellioẗt olsnër
06:01:38 <oerjan> `` dowg radiohead | tac
06:01:40 <HackEgo> 2013-08-13 <olsnër> learn radiohead is "rock music" \ 2014-03-16 <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ 2014-03-16 <oerjän> revert \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1
06:02:47 <oerjan> is there a reference i'm not getting
06:04:30 <oerjan> `slwd radiohead//s/r/R/;s/$/./
06:04:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/radiohead//Radiohead is "rock music".
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06:06:18 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a common scientific rule for measuring knowledge?
06:06:35 <hppavilion[1]> Like, 0 is no information and 1 is perfect information with 100% certainty of its accuracy
06:06:43 <zzo38> I think C++ is more confusing than C
06:07:52 <hppavilion[1]> (It would take into account e.g. error bars- if you think a value that is definitely in the range 0 to 100 is 5, but it could be ±1, you have more knowledge than a value 8 ±2 for the same sort of value)
06:09:27 <hppavilion[1]> (But then you have equation error bars- 5 ±1 is one thing, but for a similar sort of value 5 ±1, but you're 99% sure it's in the range 5 ±0.5 you have more knowledge even though the technically-possible range is still the same)
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06:26:06 <ybden> The loss of fungot must have hit them pretty badly
06:30:35 <^v> had an idea for a lang
06:31:28 <^v> if it makes sense, emagine a time traveler that goes back in time, you now have 2 timelines, one where you zap out of existence, and the one you create by going back in time
06:32:48 <^v> so you can change the state of yourself before you traveled back in time
06:33:12 <^v> if you do not, an infinite amount of timelines are created and rip you
06:34:15 <\oren\> I propose the system where every other country cedes all its land to canada
06:34:50 <\oren\> also the planet mars is renamed "Greater Quebec"
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06:35:37 <^v> i propose a doomsday device to get around the issue of unnecessary timelines persisting
06:36:21 <\oren\> the planet venus is ceded to alberta
06:37:48 <^v> and beacons so you know which timelines to jump to
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06:44:15 <zzo38> ^v: OK, can you to write the document so that we can see it better?
06:46:26 <zzo38> Give an example perhaps? I sort of like this idea
06:47:14 <^v> zzo38, sure!
06:47:26 <^v> im kinda kept up by my bf debugger rn
06:48:55 <^v> ill try my best to shape the mechanics so that they are unintuitive but not super difficult for a modern computer to interpret
06:51:25 <zzo38> I remember once I was watching a television show about reincarnation and they had a scientific experiment too, and I remember I said to myself, "Reincarnation? That is nonsense. It is really a new kind of resonance." Later I found that apparently someone else also thought of that too. Do you know?
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07:19:06 <\oren\> Julian Assange's internet was intentionally severed 40 minutes ago
07:20:26 <imode> so that was a dead man's switch.
07:25:53 <ybden> imode: you have the sauce?
07:26:04 <imode> just google "julian assange."
07:26:54 <\oren\> police are gathered in front of the embassy
07:27:16 <\oren\> A londoner is streaming from his cell phone
07:27:18 <\oren\> http://bambuser.com/v/2905015
07:28:57 <imode> this can't and won't end well.
07:29:42 <\oren\> well, I have an encrypted file that his people could release the password for
07:30:16 <\oren\> if they do, suddenly everyone who has the torrent will be able to decrypt it and find out... something
07:31:05 <\oren\> so essentially he has the government blackmailed and I can personally enforce the blackmail
07:31:38 <imode> sadly it won't do much. the sense of apathy these days is alarming.
07:32:01 <ybden> \oren\: that's from 4 years ago
07:32:15 <ybden> 15 Aug 2012 23:55 BST
07:32:58 <ybden> https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/787889195507417088 oho
07:33:32 <imode> lmao. verizon steps in.
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07:34:14 <ybden> I wonder if they have actually still got a connection, and this is actually drama to make people vote trump
07:34:40 <ybden> Especially given that last retweet regarding hillary
07:34:48 <imode> does it even matter anymore.
07:35:10 <imode> you have an orange oompa loompa that's either playing dumb or legitimately dumb (either way, he gets press)
07:35:22 <imode> and you have a flat-out criminal.
07:35:30 <ybden> Both are criminals
07:35:36 <imode> your vote will destroy this country either way.
07:35:40 <imode> so, don't vote. :P
07:35:48 <zzo38> Maybe is both playing dumb and is legitimately dumb
07:35:52 <imode> thank god you aren't.
07:36:02 <imode> if you're anywhere near this country, flee. or arm yourself.
07:36:04 <ybden> I think he's just legitimately dumb
07:36:12 <imode> nobody's legitimately dumb.
07:36:24 <ybden> imode: they are if they can't speak
07:36:27 <zzo38> imode: That is why I suggested to injure them so that they will not recover for two months
07:36:57 <ybden> Still, why on earth are we (and by we, I mean the Americans) currently voting between a pair of criminals
07:37:05 <imode> because we don't have a damn choice.
07:37:15 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/743824112376766465 <-- here is the 88 gigabyteinsurance leak
07:37:17 <imode> because we have a two party system.
07:37:20 <ybden> One of whom is a sex offender, and the other is corrupt
07:37:41 <imode> I was intending on voting for Bernie because I knew he wouldn't do anything. status quo is the safest thing in the world to vote for.
07:37:49 <imode> that way we have four more years.
07:37:59 <imode> but at the same time, this doesn't matter. congress matters.
07:38:00 <\oren\> I voted NDP last election.
07:38:23 <imode> we aren't electing a king, we're appointing a president.
07:38:32 <\oren\> which is to the left of both the american parties
07:39:07 <\oren\> well actually, our conservatives are about the same as the american democratic party
07:39:23 <imode> we're fanatic about this election year because the press is invested in both parties, and 24 hour news networks get your views regardless of which side you are.
07:39:41 <imode> you're expected to care about this kindergarten shit-flinging.
07:39:57 <imode> when all it does is give you the illusion of choice with all the division that that ropes along with it.
07:40:14 <imode> this country is intending to divide itself.
07:40:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/cologneblue.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50009&oldid=43305 * Zzo38 * (+17)
07:40:36 <imode> because I've never seen so many people angry about a single political position. ever.
07:41:03 <\oren\> maybe you guys should just split into two countries
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07:41:36 <imode> I don't know whether it's the hype. whether it's the ignorance of the legal system. whether it's paid or unpaid supporters. but we're splitting in two. and that's scary. because if all we're trying to do is split eachother up, how can we actually claim to be a "united states"?
07:42:11 <imode> you might as well be a segregated peoples who hate eachother based on what two corporations tell them.
07:42:24 <imode> we're better than that.
07:42:29 <imode> the world is better than that.
07:42:40 <imode> if we aren't, well, I'll see you in the woods.
07:42:46 <ybden> imode: you make a good point about itbeing called the "united states"
07:46:40 <imode> whatever happens after november 8th... all I want to do is remember that I used to be an american.
07:46:50 <imode> not a democrat. not a republican. an american.
07:47:18 <imode> if that sense of nationalism is gone, then I'd at least like to remember it fondly.
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08:14:10 <shachaf> I was going to make an "ornithological argument" pun, but it turns out Borges did it first: http://agreatercourage.blogspot.com/2011/11/argumentum-ornithologicum.html
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09:29:43 <\oren\> we have a man on the scenwe
09:29:46 <\oren\> https://www.periscope.tv/JohnDeplo/1OwxWrZbMQDJQ?t=3
09:30:02 <\oren\> doing god's work making sure assange is still free
09:41:24 <\oren\> man London is a bueautiuful city
09:41:39 <\oren\> I wanna go back there sometime
09:49:03 <\oren\> but it looks like nothing is happening
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11:38:57 <Taneb> This evening I'm going to actually architecture Tanebot
11:42:21 <boily> Tanelle, Tanebellot.
11:44:12 <Taneb> Tanebot: df iiisso
11:48:14 <Taneb> That's... that's a significant chunk of its functionality
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11:48:34 <Taneb> That's all it does
11:48:57 <Taneb> And now i'm gonna get some lunch
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12:39:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YSomebody * New user account
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13:04:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50010&oldid=49967 * Slnetaiga * (+382) Added MiLambda example
13:08:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50011&oldid=50010 * Slnetaiga * (+470) Added F-PULSE
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15:00:01 <lynn> Taneb: what's it written in?
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15:06:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Function call without parameters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50012&oldid=49925 * Function call without parameters * (-1)
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15:17:44 <ais523> what a strange username
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15:18:29 <ais523> also implies that there are two esolangers in Hungary, which is interesting in its own regard
15:22:12 <lynn> Taneb's IRC bot from a short while before you joined
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15:34:06 <b_jonas> "also implies that there are two esolangers in Hungary, which is interesting in its own regard" => you mean like all the smart people left the country? two esolangers isn't that surprising really
15:35:27 <ais523> b_jonas: well the esolang community is fairly small, and Hungary is also fairly small
15:35:36 <ais523> although I guess it's substantially larger than Hexham
15:37:06 <b_jonas> I guess it depends on who you count as an esolanger
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15:55:29 <izalove> trying to use a frame buffer ioctl on a pts sets errno to ENOTTY
15:56:08 <izalove> wouldn't EINVAL be more appropriate?
15:57:33 <ais523> izalove: ioctl's documentation says that it uses ENOTTY whenever you have a request that could be valid but you do it on the wrong sort of file descriptor
15:57:36 <ais523> so that matches the docs
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15:57:51 <ais523> why it does that, who knows
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16:05:34 <b_jonas> izalove: maybe you're trying to call the ioctl on the wrong side of the pts? as in, the master when you need to call it on the slave, or backwards?
16:05:41 <b_jonas> izalove: or maybe you're using the wrong ioctl number?
16:05:56 <izalove> open("/dev/pts/2", O_RDWR) = 3
16:05:58 <izalove> ioctl(3, FBIOGET_VSCREENINFO, 0x170b090) = -1 ENOTTY (Inappropriate ioctl for device)
16:06:16 <b_jonas> izalove: what operating system?
16:06:39 <ais523> izalove: the stringisation of ENOTTY looks correct to me
16:06:47 <ais523> I think the only thing you're objecting to is the abbreviation
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16:09:06 <b_jonas> izalove: um, what ioctl is that even? I don't see it in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/tty_ioctl.4.html (which should have all the ioctls you can call on a pts in linux), nor in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/console_ioctl.4.html or http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/ioctl_list.2.html
16:09:26 <b_jonas> is it one of those undocumented things you only find by reading the kernel source code or the source code of kbd or something?
16:09:37 <b_jonas> besides, doesn't FB stand for frame buffer?
16:09:56 <ais523> b_jonas: izalove's calling a frame buffer ioctl on a virtual terminal
16:10:19 <ais523> then complaining that the error code ENOTTY implies that the fd isn't a terminal, but it is
16:10:25 <b_jonas> ah, I see, he did say "trying to use a frame buffer ioctl"
16:11:01 <b_jonas> well http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/console_ioctl.4.html says ENOTTY is the right errno code for that
16:12:28 <ais523> I think izalove's just complaining about the name ENOTTY
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16:14:39 <ais523> that said, I was reading the list of errno codes
16:14:45 <ais523> some are really obscure, aren't defined in the docs
16:14:58 <ais523> and when grepping the Linux kernel for uses of them, it becomes clear that the kernel devs aren't sure what they're for either
16:15:28 <b_jonas> I get EINVAL from trying to call GIO_FONT on a pts though
16:15:45 <ais523> izalove: out of interest, /why/ were you trying to use a framebuffer ioctl on a VT?
16:16:40 <b_jonas> ais523: well, there's a disclaimer in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man4/console_ioctl.4.html saying "Warning: Do not regard this man page as documentation of the Linux console ioctls. This is provided for the curious only, as an \
16:17:01 <b_jonas> alternative to reading the source. Ioctl's are undocumented Linux internals, liable to be changed without warning. (And indeed, this page more or less describes the situation as of kernel version 1.1.94; there are many minor and not-so-minor differences with earlier versions.)"
16:17:09 <ais523> that's pretty much how I found a security exploit in xterm
16:17:12 <b_jonas> it seriously says "1.1.94"
16:17:14 <ais523> I'm waiting for the fix to be released before I disclose what it is
16:17:47 <izalove> all the cool kids use urxvt anyway
16:17:58 <ais523> b_jonas: this is why NH4 has a list of all the uses of version numbers
16:18:01 <ais523> so that I can go around updating them
16:18:14 <b_jonas> ais523: no, that one is probably actually true
16:18:14 <ais523> izalove: I don't normally use xterm
16:18:20 <ais523> but I was writing a terminal test suite
16:18:25 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean, it doesn't list any of the frame buffer ioctls, like I said
16:18:27 <ais523> b_jonas: right, but it'd remind me to look at the page again
16:19:34 <b_jonas> izalove: I think urxvt also recently had a bug once that came up when you set the window to very small, like 1x1 or 1x2 or something
16:20:40 <ais523> fwiw xterm implements more codes than most other terminals do
16:20:46 <ais523> just most of them are really obscure and not very useful
16:21:11 <b_jonas> most of the terminal codes are for compatibility with history
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16:23:07 <b_jonas> there are a lot of redundant escape codes that come from history, like "\e[10,20H" and "\e[10,20f" are the same in many terminals
16:23:48 <ais523> xterm is the only software-based terminal emulator I'm aware of that aims to emulate specific physical terminals
16:24:01 <ais523> rather than merely run terminal-based programs
16:24:37 <izalove> something something it's 2016 and we still have fucking terminals
16:24:53 <APic> What should we have instead?
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16:26:23 <b_jonas> `perl -e{ use Fcntl; sysopen my $f, "/dev/cdrom", O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK or die "open $?"; ioctl $f, 0x5309, 0 or die "ioctl $!"; } # opens the cd try - I have some strange perl code lying around
16:26:48 <b_jonas> `perl -e{ use Fcntl; sysopen my $f, "/dev/sr0", O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK or die "open $?"; ioctl $f, 0x5309, 0 or die "ioctl $!"; } # opens the cd try - I have some strange perl code lying around
16:27:13 <b_jonas> why does that say $? instead of $!
16:29:39 <b_jonas> `perl -e for $n (qw"cdrom sr0 sr1 sdb sdc sda sdd hdb hdc hdd hda") { use Fcntl; if (!sysopen my $f, "/dev/$n", O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK) { print "open $n $!; "; } else if (!ioctl $f, 0x5309, 0) { print "ioctl $n $!; "; } else { print "cd tray open $n; "; } }
16:29:40 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, near "else if" \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "} else" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
16:29:46 <b_jonas> `perl -e for $n (qw"cdrom sr0 sr1 sdb sdc sda sdd hdb hdc hdd hda") { use Fcntl; if (!sysopen my $f, "/dev/$n", O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK) { print "open $n $!; "; } elsif (!ioctl $f, 0x5309, 0) { print "ioctl $n $!; "; } else { print "cd tray open $n; "; } }
16:29:47 <HackEgo> open cdrom No such file or directory; open sr0 No such file or directory; open sr1 No such file or directory; open sdb No such file or directory; open sdc No such file or directory; open sda No such file or directory; open sdd No such file or directory; open hdb No such file or directory; open hdc No such file or directory; open hdd No such file or
16:30:19 <b_jonas> I can't open the cdrom tray of HackEgo
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17:43:35 <FireFly> ais523: is this terminal test suite public?
17:43:43 <ais523> FireFly: yes but also unfinished
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17:43:57 <ais523> also I can't remember where it is, let me check
17:44:00 <ais523> I have an older one that's also public
17:44:05 <ais523> and more finished but less functional
17:44:19 <FireFly> both sound interesting to take a look at
17:44:55 <ais523> current one is temporarily in darcs at "darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/termtest" but that URL will probably change at some point, it violates the naming convention
17:45:51 <ais523> the older one is a set of four files, http://nethack4.org/charset.vt100 http://nethack4.org/colors.vt100 http://nethack4.org/cursormotion.vt100 http://nethack4.org/strings.vt100 ; you cat them to the terminal to run the test
17:46:18 <ais523> (note: I don't have any sort of darcsweb set up so you'll need to use darcs to get at the newer testsuite, it won't work in a browser)
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17:51:36 <FireFly> there is also the vttest for testing vt* compatibility
17:51:55 <FireFly> but that of course lacks a lot of modern extensions like 256-color/24-bit color
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19:27:25 <zzo38> The other terminal emulators have various problems
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19:53:41 <FireFly> I'm quite happy with pangoterm
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20:24:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50013&oldid=49996 * YSomebody * (+129)
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20:26:21 <ais523> ooh, more introductions
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20:28:50 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: you do know that ssh password prompts don't echo, right?
20:29:01 <ais523> so you wouldn't expect any visible output until you press return
20:29:17 <ais523> this is usual for passwords in UNIXy software
20:29:55 <ais523> and comes in useful if you're streaming your terminal online or the like
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20:31:12 <ais523> that'd require setting the terminal to raw mode
20:31:15 <\oren\> hppavilion[2]: that would reveal how long your password is
20:31:22 <myname> that would be a security risk
20:31:28 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: Then make it echo a random series of * or -s
20:31:39 <\oren\> what would the point be
20:31:45 <hppavilion[2]> Well, then again, you can count how many times it's added
20:31:59 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: It's really just because I'm a n00b and I didn't realize it's working
20:32:24 <myname> we should change anything in unix hppavilion[2] is too stupid for
20:32:40 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
20:34:57 <hppavilion[1]> Now to figure out the password for the admin account...
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20:35:53 <myname> are you really sure you want to use a unixoid?
20:36:27 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I was just confused momentarily; it is resolved now
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20:45:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50014&oldid=49621 * YSomebody * (+34)
20:51:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50015&oldid=50014 * YSomebody * (+65)
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21:00:29 <hppavilion[1]> (It always prompts 3 times, then asks for the password for the account... maybe I'm misunderstanding)
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21:50:49 <wob_jonas> I have a dumb question. I have two directories on the same filesystem, $a and $b. I want to recursively move all files from $a to under $b in the same relative path, creating directories if necessary. However, if a file with the same relative pathname exists under both dirs and they aren't both directories, then those files and their recursive con
21:50:49 <wob_jonas> tents should be left alone with a warning. No file should be copied, this should use rename to move the files.
21:51:03 <wob_jonas> This is on linux. Is there an easy command to do this?
21:53:04 <DHeadshot> If it was Windows, I'd recommend XXCopy, but with Linux, you'll need some form of fancy scrfipt...
21:54:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: if you don't mind GUI programs, that's the default behaviour of Nautilus when you move files
21:54:24 <ais523> there's probably also some combination of options to rsync that does that
21:54:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: I was wondering on rsync, but I don't think it has options for this
21:55:23 <wob_jonas> I can write a script of course, I'm just wondering if there's some easy option I'm missing
21:55:25 <ais523> right, you can set rsync to do it as a copy-and-delete, but probably not a rename
21:55:57 <ais523> mv -n would work if you didn't care about keeping relative path
21:55:59 <wob_jonas> Yes, in this case the tree is rather large in total size, so I'd prefer not to copy
21:56:19 <wob_jonas> I definitely want to keep the relative path
21:56:32 <ais523> right, I was hoping there was such a thing as mv -r but apparently not
21:56:44 <ais523> are there any weird characters in the filenames?
21:56:57 <ais523> you could probably rig up something with find and mv
21:57:45 <ais523> ooh, what about find and rename?
21:58:39 <wob_jonas> weird characters => there are spaces and commas and non-ascii characters.
21:59:09 <ais523> oh, that's not a dealbreaker
21:59:17 <wob_jonas> find might help, or I was thinking maybe shell's recursive globbing could help (either zsh's or modern bash's)
21:59:45 <ais523> huh, find | xargs rename does actually work
21:59:50 <ais523> I thought it wouldn't create directories
21:59:56 <ais523> but it does, it actually renames the entire directory tree
22:00:11 <ais523> then fails to move the files inside the directory tree because there's already a file at the target
22:00:14 <wob_jonas> yes, renaming the directory tree is the best
22:01:10 <ais523> here's the command I'm using to test:
22:01:25 <ais523> find a -print0 | xargs -0 rename 's/^a/b/'
22:01:48 <ais523> how good are your backups
22:01:56 <ais523> (as in, can you recover if something goes horribly wrong?)
22:02:29 <wob_jonas> backups of $a are good, because I just copied it from a slower medum and they're still there, backups of $b aren't recent
22:02:38 <wob_jonas> I've already done the move in this case though
22:02:43 <wob_jonas> I'm asking in case this comes up in the future
22:03:17 <ais523> now I'm wondering what caused the problem; you're basically doing an orelse on directory trees
22:03:19 <wob_jonas> $a had around 30 GB of data, and there were no clashing files between the two, but I wasn't sure of that in advance
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22:04:10 <wob_jonas> "what caused the problem" => as in why it wasn't obvious how, or what the use case was?
22:04:13 <ais523> mv --backup would be the more common solution to the "don't lose data if there's a clash" issue
22:06:11 <wob_jonas> I have a directory where I store photos. It has a particular mostly reasonable directory structure to sort the photos by year at first level and location/topic/author at second and sometimes third level. but I only had the new photos in this hard drive, and I just copied 30GB of old photos (in the same structure) from another hard drive
22:06:51 <ais523> oh, I guess the "correct" thing to do would be to rsync the old drive to the new drive directly
22:06:57 <ais523> rather than copy and try to reorganize the copy
22:07:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: but how do I make rsync not overwrite photos if there happens to be a name clash? there probably isn't, or only with identical files, but I wanted to be sure
22:08:28 <ais523> if you try to copy over an existing file, the existing file gets renamed to safety
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22:08:51 <ais523> (there are other options that describe how, e.g. you can rename them into a directory specifically for holding rebaned files)
22:08:52 <wob_jonas> ah, I didn't know about that option to rsync
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22:45:57 <boily> I seem to be connected to IRC just fine, but nothing HTTP will resolve...
22:46:23 <boily> google is pingable.
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22:50:08 <boily> gmail works, reddit works, but the problem persists for other sites such as xkcd.
22:50:42 <wob_jonas> boily: is it a dns problem? routing problem? browser problem?
22:51:09 <boily> it sounds like a DNS and/or IPv6 problem, maybe?
22:51:20 <boily> aptitude can't reach ubuntu's update sites...
22:51:48 <boily> I can google my problem. some other people seem to be affected by it, but I can't get to the pages :/
22:55:35 <boily> yay, ubuntuforums.org is reachable!
22:55:42 <boily> trying with a static IP. let's see...
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22:56:45 <wob_jonas> if it's not a browser problem, and it persists after ten minutes, call your ISP or your local sysadmin?
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22:58:35 <boily> didn't change nothing, and apparently my phone has the same issue. Android's complaining that I have no internet access, even tho reddit is also reachable from there.
22:58:45 <boily> let's try with a different router!
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23:15:14 <boily> new router, rebooted the modem per its setup instructions, it works!
23:16:04 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:16:16 * boily mapoles his old router into oblivion
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23:19:49 * boily mapoles it some more to reach a perfect grind
23:20:31 <\oren\> are you going to make router coffee?
23:21:47 <boily> drinking its pulverized remains to enslave its impure soul.
23:22:04 <boily> its carcass no more, its essence desecrated.
23:29:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lhooq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50016&oldid=43746 * YSomebody * (-3)
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23:29:41 <HackEgo> אrjan//אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
23:30:01 <boily> just how many oerjans are there...
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23:36:46 <oerjan> helloily. uncountably many, of course.
23:40:20 <oerjan> there appears to be a fungap again.
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23:42:53 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. FUNGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!
23:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Am I the only one that has my client set to highlight on porthellos?)
23:47:49 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm mentally playing with a generalization of factors and division
23:48:34 <hppavilion[1]> Which generalizes "k is a factor of x" (equiv. "k divides x") to "k is a factor of x over f"
23:51:35 <hppavilion[1]> Which is pretty simple; k :: t, x :: t, f :: t => Setlike<u>, k %|_f x <-> (f k) \subseq (f x)
23:51:54 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
23:52:06 <HackEgo> emacs is the weird brother of nano.
23:52:14 <HackEgo> vi is in a relationship with emacs.
23:52:18 <HackEgo> ed is the standard text editor.
23:52:52 <boily> hppavilion[1]: can't think, my mind will doubt. disappearing for a weekly poutine session.
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23:54:03 <hppavilion[1]> (If f is invertible, you can then define division a/_f b (a :: t, b :: t, f :: t => Setlike<u>, ~f :: Setlike<u> => t) where b %|_f a as ~f(f(a) \sminus f(b))
23:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> (for normal divisors, f is pfb(x)/prime-factor-bag)
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00:48:15 <hppavilion[1]> Today's smbc... actually seems like something that one could do
00:48:55 <hppavilion[1]> Find someone with the last name Riemann and pay them to make utterly stupid mathematical statements
00:56:46 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:00:37 <oerjan> it is still october, after all
01:01:01 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/quack/woof/
01:01:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious weevil bulgarian woof octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:01:59 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/comput/complic/
01:02:00 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious weevil bulgarian woof octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:04:30 <oerjan> don't you mean computit hth
01:04:42 <int-e> I forgot how time consuming installing new PCs is.
01:28:08 <hppavilion[1]> I just spent over an hour trying to debug a caesar cypher
01:28:59 <hppavilion[1]> It turns out I made ord() (which is defined for any alphabet object) return -1 when given the null character accidentally
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01:37:19 <Cale> int-e: yeah, and then you get it "mostly done" and get to discover all the things you forgot to set up over the next few weeks
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01:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> I've set up a program that runs various tests on all of my encryption definitions
02:06:22 <hppavilion[1]> And now it can handle cyphers that require multiple keys (e.g. affine)
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02:32:15 <tswett> Uh oh, what did I just sign myself up for?
02:33:04 <tswett> I've decided to write the natural-number division and modulo functions using primitive recusion.
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02:40:32 <oerjan> tswett: that doesn't sound so hard. now try doing it in logspace hth
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03:14:48 <tswett> mod(x,y) should probably be computed by recursion over x.
03:14:56 <tswett> Doing it by recursion over y sounds like a bad idea.
03:17:07 <HackEgo> All that glitters is not gold.
03:19:34 <oerjan> tswett: have considered computing mod by using div as a subroutine hth
03:20:20 <oerjan> mod(x,y) = x - y*div(x,y) hth
03:20:44 <tswett> Ooh. Yeah, gee, that's a good idea.
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03:26:30 <tswett> 'Course, I went ahead and did the wrong thing. I defined modulo all by itself and now I have to define division.
03:29:42 <tswett> Am I going to end up defining a helper function for this?
03:29:57 <tswett> This feels like the sort of thing that will need a helper function.
03:33:36 <tswett> Here we go. I can just define div_mod all in one shot.
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03:42:51 <tswett> Man. It's totally obvious how to implement GCD if I'm allowed to recurse back to arbitrary smaller arguments.
03:43:12 <oerjan> just count down from the original size hth
03:43:33 <oerjan> that'll always be larger, and will be enough to force it to halt.
03:44:44 <oerjan> well i think that should work, just requires a bit of a helper function
03:44:59 <tswett> Yup, I'll probably do that.
03:49:24 <tswett> I think it's usually floor(a/b).
03:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: In this context?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Euclidean_algorithm#Pseudocode
03:52:29 <hppavilion[1]> (FOR EXACTLY ONE 6-LETTER TEST STRING WITH FIXED KEYS!)
04:01:25 <tswett> Man, my code looks weird.
04:01:51 <tswett> inductive of t append(_, y : List(t)) over List(t) { empty := y; cons(h, t) := cons(h, base); }
04:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I have code with the segment <<results[msg][t][cyn][aln][k][0]>> used multiple times
04:02:29 <hppavilion[1]> I wrote it 20 minutes ago and I don't remember what it does
04:03:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: This channel may contain large-scale traces of ionizing radiation | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
04:03:30 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
04:13:17 <hppavilion[1]> I forget, did the actual reactors at Fukushima explode, or was it only the systems sustaining them?
04:14:17 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember hearing that they actually exploded in the sense that the television screen would have been turned entirely white due to the light
04:16:07 <hppavilion[1]> It was definitely on the same day as the earthquake (in retrospect, I live in Alaska and probably would have felt it)... maybe they were referring to Chernobyl as an analogy for how bad it could get?
04:18:35 <tswett> In retrospect, hppavilion[1] lives in Alaska.
04:19:02 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure boily has my actual address. Somehow.
04:19:16 <lambdabot> PAMR 180253Z AUTO 01004KT 10SM OVC075 04/M09 A2909 RMK AO2 SLP852 T00391089 53013 TSNO
04:19:24 <hppavilion[1]> Which is an airport that's under a mile from my house
04:20:13 <pikhq> I don't read metar
04:20:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: If I were to enter cardiac arrest, boily would probably call an ambulance before the people around me.
04:20:44 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I do, but only to feel smug at people who don't
04:21:00 <tswett> Man, recursion over just one argument is a tough way to get stuff done.
04:21:15 <lambdabot> Jafet says: unsafeCoerce takes any argument. AND IT WINS THAT ARGUMENT.
04:21:25 <lambdabot> KCOS 180254Z 03007KT 10SM CLR 09/M03 A2992 RMK AO2 SLP068 T00891033 51046
04:21:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I prefer infinite recursion over infinitely many arguments
04:21:34 <shachaf> oerjan: have you considered nopinging `quote wth
04:24:22 <oerjan> shachaf: very briefly.
04:25:02 <hppavilion[1]> This election has hit forecasters hard; all they can really do is discuss HOW bad Trump is doing
04:26:40 <shachaf> copumpkin: are you going to vote early or wait until nov 8
04:27:56 <pikhq> That's only the date for Trump votes.
04:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Trump accidentally said that election day is nov 28)
04:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> Utah's democrat senatorial candidate (0.3% chance) is apparently named "Misty Snow"
04:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> Which I can't tell whether it's a videogame name or a pornstar name
04:34:11 <shachaf> What happens when you represent computable reals in balanced ternary?
04:38:14 <shachaf> But does balanced ternary avoid the 0.111... = 1.000... problem?
04:39:40 <tswett> The number 1 only has one representation, but consider, lemme see.
04:40:09 <tswett> Like, 0.111... versus 1.(-1)(-1)(-1)...
04:40:19 <tswett> I'm pretty sure those are both the same number.
04:40:22 <oerjan> avoiding that would prove an interval homeomorphic to a cantor set tinp
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04:41:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, I'm sure it causes some other problem, I'm not proposing that the reals are secretly disconnected and no one noticed.
04:41:11 <shachaf> Which is why I'm asking what happens.
04:41:46 <oerjan> well i'm saying that automatically implies you _must_ have a collision
04:41:49 <tswett> I think the answer is, you still end up with the 0.111... = 1.000... problem, just with different numbers.
04:42:07 <shachaf> I'm not saying there isn't a collision.
04:42:11 <oerjan> or else, discontinuity, which you don't seem to have here.
04:42:20 <shachaf> But doesn't balanced ternary have this property that truncation is the same operation as rounding?
04:42:38 <oerjan> shachaf: what's the 0.111... = 1.000... problem other than a collision
04:44:04 <shachaf> I guess you end up with tswett's collision.
04:46:22 * oerjan chases muphry across the channel with the swatter -----###
04:46:45 <tswett> Which letter is b supposed to be correcting?
04:46:52 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, the problem with using Cladistics for taxonomy is that, over evolutionary time, you have to keep adding new levels
04:47:14 -!- Cale has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> So what's a species today could be future peoples' relative equivalent of a class
04:48:04 <pikhq> Part of the thing with cladistic taxonomy is, you don't rank the groupings at all.
04:48:25 <pikhq> i.e. the kingdom domain etc. thing is bogus.
04:48:40 <pikhq> There's just life, which includes the bacteria and the archaea.
04:48:56 <pikhq> (the eukaryotes appear to be members of the archaean clade)
04:55:50 <tswett> Whelp, I'm tired of writing primitive-recursive functions.
04:56:44 <tswett> I wanna do something more interesting, like proving that the natural numbers form a monoid.
05:01:44 <pikhq> Oh, c'mon. I can't even play the new Pokémon demo yet and there's already leaks from data mining happening?
05:05:28 <tswett> The collection of all decision problems solvable in polynomial time?
05:06:47 <oerjan> no, the corrected letter hth
05:17:35 <hppavilion[1]> Henceforth, people who insist we COMPLETELY replace pi with tau (rather than just having them both on hand for convenience) shall be known as "taurrorists"
05:34:14 <\oren\> I'm nearly finished conquering all eurasia as the USSR
05:34:46 <\oren\> The iron curtain is now at the borders of france, belgium, and the netherlands
05:35:10 <\oren\> britain is slowly becoming communist
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05:39:09 <oerjan> \oren\: soon you will have it all except for a small, annoying village in bretagne that somehow defeats all your plans hth
05:39:58 <oerjan> (yep, that includes your nukes)
05:41:05 <shachaf> How do you draw a 0xn or nx0 matrix?
05:41:33 <shachaf> Hard to tell the dimensionality that way.
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05:44:14 <oerjan> i think your basis is off hth
05:45:24 <shachaf> oerjan: a baseless accusation hth
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05:49:23 <oerjan> shachaf: are you saying i'm thinking too linearly?
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06:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> Fun little encrypter I made: seqxor (sequential xor)
06:21:37 <ais523> oh, is it just xoring each byte of plaintext with the previous byte of ciphertext?
06:21:46 <ais523> that seems fairly easy to cryptanalyse…
06:22:01 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, it xors each byte in the plaintext with the previous byte in the plaintext
06:22:18 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Obviously, it isn't good on its own because it violates Kerckhoffs's Assumption
06:22:20 <ais523> that's even easier to cryptanalyse :-P
06:23:05 <hppavilion[1]> (Unless, of course, you're using it against someone REALLY bad at crypto- pretty much exclusively if it's written on physical paper and passed to someone else)
06:23:32 <hppavilion[1]> But it'd probably make a good component of a larger system
06:23:43 <ais523> as there's no way to key it
06:24:00 <ais523> modern ciphers are basically just random number generators
06:24:27 <ais523> which you either seed with the message + key (block ciphers), or else seed with the key and xor with the message (stream ciphers)
06:24:28 <hppavilion[1]> (If you want a key, you start with the key as a character and exclude it from the output)
06:24:43 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: if keying only affects the first character it's not very useful
06:27:09 <pikhq> *facepalm* Oh, GameFreak, how do you screw up like that?
06:27:50 <pikhq> Apparently, in the SUMO demo, they managed to scrub out data for everything... but the freaking models for shiny Pokémon.
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06:31:31 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: There, now I have one that uses the previous CYPHERtext character each time, and can be keyed (...by a single byte)
06:32:58 <myname> i don't really follow that in lack of console
06:33:12 <myname> the latest handheld i own is a ds phat
06:35:57 <pikhq> *If* you want to, the 2DS is fairly cheap these days.
06:36:12 <myname> i know, i thought about it
06:37:06 <myname> also, sky3ds looks promising
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07:46:11 <hppavilion[1]> (as in, sequences of the OEIS- can they be lazy-evaluated?)
07:47:16 <ais523> OEIS often gives a formula, if there is one
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09:05:36 <b_jonas> hpp: no, OEIS only contains static data. many entries contain code to compute the series, but OEIS itself doesn't run those.
09:05:52 <b_jonas> hpp: http://oeis.org/eishelp2.html tells about the format
09:09:08 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: in particular, OEIS is only allowed to have as many lines as fit in three lines of the screen.
09:10:40 <b_jonas> At least 4 terms are required, and there's an "easy" keyword to mean that terms of the sequence are easy to compute.
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09:47:46 <fungot> b_jonas: headlines tell: the majority of the implementors who currently implement a dase must agree to withdraw it... maxium recursion fnord")
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11:45:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Headache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50017&oldid=46810 * YSomebody * (+7)
11:45:32 <HackEgo> footnote 8//Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes⁺?
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18:02:40 <alercah> the worst coin flip in history is surely the sign of charge
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18:08:12 <shachaf> i,i "the sign of charge", more commonly known as "alternating current"
18:08:18 <shachaf> i,i "the sine of charge", more commonly known as "alternating current"
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19:12:23 <Zarutian> hmm.. does a Forth machine without any other branch instruction than EXIT (or return) fall under esoteric programming? (it also does not have add or subtract instructions in its set)
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19:18:12 <ratpuke> Been a long thyme since I came 'ere
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19:31:04 <ais523> huh, and they left before I noticed they were here
19:43:21 <HackEgo> monoidal category//Monoidal categories are just 2-categories with a single object.
19:43:21 <HackEgo> poland//Połąńd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes.
19:43:21 <HackEgo> rust//Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
19:43:21 <HackEgo> monad//Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
19:43:44 <shachaf> Those are strong monoidal categories in particular, right?
19:43:55 <shachaf> I imagine people usually talk about weak monoidal categories more often.
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19:44:09 <lambdabot> PAMR 181753Z 00000KT 10SM OVC110 01/M05 A2953 RMK AO2 SLP002 T00061050 10011 21033 53015
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20:05:40 <izalove> i wrote a sorta library thingy for small string optimization in c
20:05:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50018&oldid=50011 * B jonas * (+179) +Homespring
20:05:44 <izalove> https://github.com/izabera/s
20:05:59 <izalove> can someone check it out and see if i made some huge blunder?
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20:12:34 <fizzie> I'm constitutionally unable to check non-portable code.
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20:15:51 <izalove> it's portable to most 64 bit little endian archs if you compile with gcc or clang
20:17:54 <izalove> actually the endian isn't even necessary
20:20:12 <izalove> it just needs size_t to be at least 54 bits long and pointers to be at most 8 bytes long
20:20:33 <izalove> and a compiler that supports a few __builtin_* instructions
20:22:57 <fizzie> That's not really the full list of assumptions it makes.
20:23:20 <fizzie> It also assumes a particular way of packing bitfields, and support for #pragma once.
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20:32:49 <izabera> i was actually assuming that pragma once was standard
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20:35:31 <fizzie> There's a total of three standard #pragma directives, they're all of the form "#pragma STDC <name> on-off-switch" and they're about boring floating point stuff.
20:35:43 <ais523> the whole purpose of pragma is for nonstandard things
20:36:03 <ais523> but gcc decided to use __attribute__ instead because they didn't like the way pragma worked syntactically and were worried about clashing with other compilers
20:36:10 <ais523> then C99 added _Pragma to fix the syntax issues
20:37:32 <izabera> can you focus on the rest? <.<
20:40:18 <fizzie> Okay -- using size_t as the type of a bit-field relies on an implementation-defined extension. :)
20:40:38 <fizzie> (I'd be pointing out "real problems" (FSVO) if I had found one.)
20:40:57 <ais523> fizzie: is that true even if size_t is an alias for an unsigned int variety
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20:42:22 <fizzie> Well, sort-of no, but it's implementation-defined what integer type it is, so that seems like a relatively minor distinction.
20:43:28 <fizzie> The exact rule is: A bit-field shall have a type that is a qualified or unqualified version of _Bool, signed int, unsigned int, or some other implementation-defined tpye. It is implementation-defined whether atomic types are permitted. (C11 6.7.2.1p5)
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20:51:41 <fizzie> izabera: I like the idea of using space_left instead of bytes_used to make the flag byte act as the null termination, but I guess that sort of restricts what you can use the other flag bits for.
20:52:08 <izabera> they just have to be zeros when the string is in place and 15 bytes long
20:52:38 <izabera> so instead of is_in_place there's is_on_heap
20:55:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ag8 * New user account
20:55:41 <fizzie> You could probably make it a compile-time error to use s_small_temporary on an overlong string.
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20:58:01 <izabera> i couldn't come up with a way to put a static assert there
20:58:59 <fizzie> You can put a static assert anywhere an expression can go.
20:59:14 <ais523> although it's best to only place them in places where declarations go
20:59:29 <ais523> this is because static asserts can be implemented using declarations in older versions of C
20:59:40 <fizzie> Well, but a compound literal with a struct declaration is an expression that includes a declaration.
20:59:42 <ais523> you could probably do some trick with sizeof, though?
21:01:10 <fizzie> x -> ((struct { _Static_assert(sizeof x <= 16, "it's too big"); int dummy; }){1}, x)
21:01:42 <fizzie> And possibly with one of the static-assert hacks instead of a real _Static_assert if you like.
21:02:07 <izabera> i tried something like #define s_small_temporary(x) (_Static_assert(sizeof(x) <= 16, "no no no"), s_new(&s_literal_empty(), "" x)
21:02:32 <izabera> error: expected expression before ‘_Static_assert’
21:02:35 <izabera> #define s_small_temporary(x) (_Static_assert(sizeof(x) <= 16, "no no no"), s_new(&s_literal_empty(), "" x)
21:02:40 <fizzie> Yeah, it's a declaration.
21:03:02 <fizzie> You need something like that struct literal to make it part of an expression.
21:04:31 <izabera> error: expected ‘)’ before ‘;’ token
21:04:33 <izabera> s_cat(&s1, s_small_temporary("foo bar baz bat"));
21:04:42 <izabera> this is from #define s_small_temporary(x) ((struct { _Static_assert(sizeof x <= 16, "it's too big"); int dummy; }){1}, s_new(&s_literal_empty(), "" x)
21:05:16 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure *why* it's a declaration, although I vaguely recall I had a plausible argument at some point.
21:05:29 <fizzie> It certainly makes that sort of thing uglier, though.
21:06:13 <fizzie> Oh, right! Having it a declaration makes putting it outside functions less ugly.
21:06:54 <izabera> and i guess it would be unreasonable to be special and behave as both an expression and a declaration?
21:23:52 <\oren\> izabera: I think in some cicumstances that would introduce parsing ambiguities
21:24:15 <\oren\> (not that C++ even tries to avoid those anyway)
21:27:11 <izabera> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
21:27:15 <izabera> run 1.9G 920K 1.9G 1% /run
21:28:52 <int-e> IRC 250 105 120 42% #esoteric
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21:34:12 <\oren\> but seriously, in canada you can't just "run for prime minister". You have to be an member of parliament and supported by a plurality of members in parliament. I think americans should really consider whether President Paul Ryan would be so bad.
21:40:23 <izabera> you have the factorization of x!
21:40:42 <ais523> izabera: multiply the factors together?
21:41:33 <izabera> you have the factorization of x! (factorial of x)
21:42:04 <ais523> it's fairly easy to figure out the largest prime ≤ x, at least
21:42:39 <int-e> the power of 2 determines floor(x / 2)
21:43:45 <ais523> actually you just use the power of 2 and then test the two possibilities
21:43:46 <izabera> is there an easy way to get that?
21:44:20 <int-e> . o O ( inverse culmulative ruler function )
21:45:06 <ais523> int-e is right, the problem is I'm not sure what the formula for the inverse cumulative ruler function looks like
21:45:18 <ais523> @oeis 1 2 1 4 1 2 1 8 1 2 1 4 1 2 1 16
21:45:25 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A006519 Highest power of 2 dividing n.
21:45:25 <lambdabot> [1,2,1,4,1,2,1,8,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,16,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,8,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,32,1,2,1,4,1...
21:45:28 <int-e> 4 = 1+2+1 --> it's 6 or 7; you need to test some prime factor of 7 to rule out 7!
21:46:21 <ais523> @oeis 1 3 4 8 9 11 12 20
21:46:25 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A006520 Partial sums of A006519.
21:46:25 <lambdabot> [1,3,4,8,9,11,12,20,21,23,24,28,29,31,32,48,49,51,52,56,57,59,60,68,69,71,72...
21:46:38 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A006519 Highest power of 2 dividing n.
21:46:38 <lambdabot> [1,2,1,4,1,2,1,8,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,16,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,8,1,2,1,4,1,2,1,32,1,2,1,4,1...
21:47:55 <int-e> note that it's easy to compute how often a prime p divides n!: just take n/p + n/p^2 + ... using truncating division and stopping when the terms reach 0
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22:41:18 <moonheart08> winderp: http://pasteboard.co/gAAPkAHyL.png
22:41:39 <ais523> moonheart08: wrong channel?
22:42:10 <moonheart08> no. i want a explaination, derpiest thing i've ever seen windows do
22:42:29 <moonheart08> im on hexchat. its complaining it cant start hexchat (another instancE) due to a missing DLL
22:42:46 <ais523> I interpreted the "winderp:" as a nick, and mentally parsed it "winder-p"
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22:51:05 <moonheart08> imode: https://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/16/lightning_bios.png
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23:13:40 <HackEgo> morphism//A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
23:14:25 <ais523> that is a terrible definition :-D
23:14:43 <ais523> is there any non-circular way to make use of it?
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23:18:59 <boily> it's a good definition. it has words in it, the verb "to be", and is totally impenetrable.
23:19:08 <boily> as to uncircularify it, fungot?
23:19:08 <fungot> boily: dmnt claimed it's 14. :p i think that
23:21:26 <ais523> actually I'm not even sure it's correct (although it might be)
23:21:56 <ais523> a morphism in a category C is a functor from 1 to C
23:22:04 <ais523> what does "functor on 1" even mean? functors have two endpoints
23:22:17 <ais523> and there is only one functor from 1 to 1
23:22:33 <ais523> I guess the definition is right
23:22:44 <ais523> you need two functors because the morphism has two endpoints
23:22:49 <shachaf> What you said is an object.
23:23:41 <shachaf> Though "functors on 1" is an odd way to say "functors : 1 -> C"?
23:24:58 <HackEgo> A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
23:25:12 <ais523> making it "functors from 1" would be clearer
23:25:16 <shachaf> Ah, not one of the ones with two definitions.
23:25:34 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
23:26:04 <ais523> it took me a while to understand the endofunctor definition
23:26:47 <ais523> basically because the concept of an endofunctor violates my internal typechecker by merging things that I mentally consider different
23:26:55 <shachaf> Did you know applicative functors are also monoids in the category of endofunctors?
23:27:21 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Where did you learn to type?
23:27:31 * boily mapoles lambdabot for being cheeky
23:28:35 <ais523> shachaf: well monads are applicative functors
23:28:40 <ais523> but the opposite isn't necessarily true?
23:28:43 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
23:28:57 <HackEgo> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
23:28:59 <ais523> so I guess the definition of monad is more general than it should be?
23:29:21 <shachaf> I'm talking about a different category of endofunctors.
23:29:37 <shachaf> or rather the same endofunctors but a different tensor product.
23:30:02 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
23:30:11 <HackEgo> Endomorphisms are just morphisms which compose with themselves.
23:30:21 <HackEgo> A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
23:30:37 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories.
23:30:49 <imode> what should I name my new programming language? candidates are Flame, SPL (Small Programming Language), SCL (Small Control Language), Nano, Nanostack, Jewel, Mark, and Oro.
23:30:49 <\oren\> ERROR! Cycle detected!
23:31:05 <shachaf> In the one where the tensor product is Day convolution.
23:32:33 <shachaf> You shouldn't user an acronym.
23:33:15 <ais523> imode: that possibly depends on the language's semantics
23:33:25 -!- Cale has joined.
23:33:26 <ais523> although I don't like SPL, you should probably have something more descriptive
23:34:22 <imode> ais523: based around a stack machine. intended as a "readable machine code"... has 48 commands, each of which are single-characters.
23:35:08 <imode> can post an example of a factorial function if you want.
23:35:23 <ais523> does it fit in one line of IRC? it probably should for that sort of language
23:35:28 <ais523> it's not a tarpit, at least
23:35:35 <imode> indeed, you can fit in one line.
23:35:36 <ais523> reminds me of Redcode more than anything else, from that description
23:35:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:36:08 <imode> ,:,1-[,1:?,:,2#,2#*,1#,1-].
23:36:31 <imode> thaaat's factorial! I can post the equivalent forth code.
23:36:53 <HackEgo> Unknown option: 1 \ Unknown option: 0
23:36:56 <HackEgo> Unknown option: n \ Unknown option: 1 \ Unknown option: 0
23:37:16 <HackEgo> equaquil rrich orowing diphulen fidiq sec hau jem desidea mim
23:37:23 <ais523> imode: what does , do?
23:37:33 <imode> pushes a 0 to the stack.
23:37:45 <boily> imode: imhellode. orowing? diphulen? mim?
23:37:53 <ais523> I'm a little surprised that the command's being used that often
23:38:11 <imode> characters 0 through 9 and A through F perform an operation like...
23:38:22 <imode> stack[top] = (stack[top] << 4) | <digit>
23:38:31 <ais523> oh, it's a "this is the start of a number"
23:38:34 <\oren\> The blue jays just scored two goals in one faceoff!
23:38:49 <boily> he\\oren\. Go Maple Leafs!
23:38:56 <imode> so, to add two numbers together...
23:39:05 <ais523> \oren\: ugh, my American sports knowledge is just good enough that I can probably figure out what that means given the sport, but just bad enough that I'm not 100% sure what sport it is
23:39:24 <imode> also, in lieu of a stack underflow, we just yield a ero.
23:39:32 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:39:39 <ais523> imode: is this intended to be particularly golfy or just portable?
23:39:46 <imode> incredibly portable.
23:39:46 <pikhq> Goals? Baseball? Whut?
23:39:50 <ais523> \oren\: no it isn't, baseball is the one US sport I'm really confident on
23:40:03 <ais523> I used to watch it back when it was shown in the UK
23:40:03 <pikhq> The Blue Jays are a baseball team.
23:40:04 <imode> no parsing required! the instruction set is ASCII. :P
23:40:30 <ais523> hockey has goals, as do most variants of football (including american football)
23:40:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:40:52 <\oren\> they got two points in one down
23:40:58 <pikhq> The Maple Leafs are the hockey team from the same city (Toronto, Canada), so...
23:41:08 <pikhq> That is neither hockey nor baseball.
23:41:17 <ais523> actually I think \oren\ is just trolling
23:41:27 <\oren\> because Encarnation hit the puck out of the stadium
23:41:33 <pikhq> Though, Toronto also has a (Canadian) football team...
23:41:33 <ais523> is a safety worth 2? that would be an easy way to get 2 points in one down
23:42:06 <ais523> oh, you're asking of big-O notation could use, say, complex numbers?
23:42:18 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, safeties are worth 2 in both common gridiron variants.
23:42:20 <boily> \oren\: oooh, you tengwared your font! ^^
23:42:24 <hppavilion[1]> But since you can have O(\inf) time, you clearly aren't just dealing with JUST real numbers
23:42:27 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:42:27 <ais523> the "n" in big-O notation acts a bit like whatever the reciprocal of an infinitesmal is
23:43:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: only in nonstandard analysis
23:43:06 <ais523> so I guess it's a nonstandard number
23:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: By my understanding it just means an-arbitrary-but-fixed-constant
23:43:56 <ais523> the most notable property that n in big-O notation has is that it's large compared to any real number
23:44:15 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Wait, doesn't n usually mean "the size of the problem"
23:44:18 <ais523> because the whole point of big-O notation is to deal with asymptotic performance
23:45:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: You could probably say "n is a finite infinity" and capture the meaning while saying something utterly meaningless
23:45:10 <\oren\> boily: yes, I put in tengwar, but the dots won't look right unless your terminal knows elvish
23:45:43 <boily> \oren\: bummer. at least you can write in Beleriand mode...
23:45:44 <ais523> I just realised what the hppavilion[1] style is
23:45:44 <pikhq> \oren\: Hrm, did they encode it with combining chars?
23:46:15 <ais523> most people, when they have ideas, start with the assumption that they need something possible and try to maximise creativity
23:46:23 <ais523> whereas you start with the assumption that the idea has to be creative
23:46:31 <ais523> and then an idea is better if it's more possible
23:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> But that wasn't what I was doing right now, was it?
23:46:46 <ais523> so you approach the intersection of creative+reasonable from the opposite direction of most people
23:47:15 <\oren\> I should add sarati maybe
23:47:18 <hppavilion[1]> I was just trying to figure out what kinds of numbers you deal with in O
23:47:46 <boily> \oren\: is there support for vertical text in common terminal software?
23:47:51 * pikhq wonders what's holding up the Tengwar proposal...
23:48:10 <ais523> also I'm not convinced O(∞) is a real complexity class
23:48:12 <boily> pikhq: pikhelloq. aaaaaaaaaargh :(
23:48:16 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But it IS looking like n behaves exactly like infinity in every way, except it's finite
23:48:17 <alercah> pikhq: I suspect nobody caring
23:48:33 <ais523> alercah: but it differs from O(1) by a constnat
23:48:39 <boily> alercah: hellorcah.
23:48:57 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But then what's the worst case for bogosort?
23:49:11 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, do complexity classes only apply to algorithms? Probably
23:49:15 <alercah> ais523: it does, but it's even a distinct class
23:49:17 <pikhq> Actually, possibly not much. It appears to have a tentative assignment to U+16080-U+160FF.
23:49:21 <alercah> O(0) contains only the constant zero function
23:49:40 <ais523> alercah: not constant functions that return other numbers?
23:49:48 <alercah> go back to the definition, folks ;)
23:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: You mean a function that always returns 0?
23:49:58 <ais523> actually my guess as to what O(0) means is that it only captures identity functions
23:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> And an algorithm has to ALWAYS, PROVABLY return a CORRECT answer in FINITE time
23:50:22 <alercah> f \in O(g) if there exists M and x_0 such that |f(x)| \le M|g(x)| for all x \ge x_0
23:50:33 <alercah> if g(x) = 0, then this can only be true if f(x) = 0 also
23:50:35 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor, Bogosort isn't a proper algorithm and complexity classes aren't 100% applicable
23:50:48 <HackEgo> randomized algorithms? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:50:50 <pikhq> Of course, a tentative allocation only means that the Unicode Roadmap Committee is aware of the proposal and hasn't thrown it out as completely ridiculous.
23:51:10 <alercah> `le/rn randomized algorithms/Nobody tell hppavilion[1] about randomized algorithms.
23:51:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'randomized algorithms': Nobody tell hppavilion[1] about randomized algorithms.
23:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Those aren't properly algorithms under the mathematical definition
23:51:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `"wisdom/randomized algorithms"': No such file or directory
23:51:47 <HackEgo> strong pseudoprime? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:52:07 <pikhq> (for comparison, Klingon does not even have a tentative allocation as yet)
23:52:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rw: not found
23:52:16 <alercah> ais523: and \infty is not a valid value for a function (assuming the reals, which I suppose might be unreasonable)
23:52:17 <ais523> pikhq: it has an unofficial one IIRC
23:52:28 <alercah> if you're using the extended reals, O(\infty) is all functions
23:52:52 <pikhq> ais523: It has a PUA allocation with the Conscript Registry, much like what Tengwar has in use in the wild.
23:52:58 <ais523> now I'm wondering if one of the uncomputable languages that support time travel would allow O(-1)
23:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn phnglui/This wisdom exists only to test a command
23:53:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'phnglui': This wisdom exists only to test a command
23:53:16 <alercah> because the definition uses the absolute value
23:53:16 <HackEgo> This wisdom exists only to test a command
23:53:22 <pikhq> There was a proposal to Unicode to formally add Klingon, but it was rejected outright on the basis that no user of the language actually uses the script.
23:53:33 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
23:53:35 <pikhq> (which at the time was true)
23:53:41 <alercah> `le/rn phnglui/This wisdom existed only to test a command, but then it was deleted.
23:53:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'phnglui': This wisdom existed only to test a command, but then it was deleted.
23:53:48 <ais523> alercah: any reason why the absolute value is needed in the definition?
23:54:12 <pikhq> Huh, TIL. The BMP isn't completely allocated yet.
23:54:17 -!- ^v has joined.
23:54:17 <alercah> ais523: I don't think there's a technical reason, no, since most of the functions you generally care about are nonnegative
23:54:21 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: A randomized algorithm is, properly, a heuristic at best
23:54:27 <alercah> but it's fun to write sin \in O(1)
23:54:27 <ais523> pikhq: there's still plenty of space for relatively small things in the BMP
23:54:38 -!- Cale has joined.
23:54:39 <pikhq> There aren't many free blocks, but there definitely are free blocks.
23:54:40 <ais523> but I think new blocks are placed in the astral planes if there's any risk of them being fairly large
23:54:53 <myname> alercah: O(0) does not contain only the contant 0 function
23:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Alercahtively, it could be a potentially-nonterminating algorithm)
23:55:02 <pikhq> Or being anything other than very high use.
23:55:07 * boily mapoles hppavilion[1]. 0.87 Sh.
23:55:12 <myname> alercah: sgn(x) - 1 should also be O(0)
23:55:20 <pikhq> And even then, I think the preference is that new allocations be for things used with scripts already in the BMP.
23:55:33 <alercah> it includes all eventually constant functions
23:55:47 <pikhq> (see the not yet in Unicode, but accepted for the next version "Syriac Supplemental" block)
23:55:52 * moony gives boily sqrt(mapole)
23:55:54 <alercah> O(0) is exactly the eventually constant 0 functions
23:55:57 <ais523> what about functions that are asymptotially constant, like 1/x?
23:56:20 <alercah> because |f(x)| <= 0 if and only if f(x) = 0
23:56:20 <ais523> I guess you'd have to call that, what, o(1)?
23:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> Because I'm pretty sure O(1) is just any algorithm that always takes the same amount of time to return an answer (*roughly* constant, not varying in a way predictable by problem size)
23:56:44 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: as I already said
23:56:51 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: O(1) is bounded time
23:57:05 <boily> moony: mhelloony. don't you dare root my mapole :P
23:57:12 <alercah> f \in O(g) if and only if there exist M and x_0 such that |f(x)| <= M|g(x)| for all x >= x_0
23:57:13 <ais523> i.e. when applied to computational complexity, there's a limit to how long the algorithm takes regardless of input
23:57:17 <pikhq> An algorithm is O(1) iff for any n you can guarantee the algorithm will take at most x time.
23:57:17 <ais523> it's allowed to return early though
23:57:32 <pikhq> O notation is always about the worst case.
23:57:33 <myname> hppavilion[1]: O(1) is any algorithm that takes at most some constant time no matter the input
23:57:35 <alercah> saying that an algorithm is O(1) is really saying that its running time, as a function of input size, is O(1)
23:57:35 * moony gives boily the sqrt(-mapole)
23:57:43 <alercah> which means that it must be eventually bounded by a constant
23:57:46 <ais523> note that alercah's definition is a little confusing, f here is the algorithm's runtime
23:57:46 <myname> it can however take different times depending on the input
23:58:04 <pikhq> An algorithm could be O(n log n), but in most cases take a constant amount of time.
23:58:19 <alercah> assuming your input sizes are discrete, then O(1) means that the running time is bounded
23:58:27 <alercah> but 1/x is O(1) despite being unbounded
23:58:29 <pikhq> Similarly an implementation of an O(1) algorithm could usually take 1 hour but sometimes take 1 second.
23:58:44 <pikhq> myname: Well, then O(n log n) is a crap bound.
23:58:56 <myname> pikhq: a valid nontheless
23:58:57 <pikhq> Not *inaccurate*, but pretty crap.
23:59:06 <boily> moony: my mapole ain't to be imaginarified. tsé.
23:59:12 <ais523> pikhq: well, worst case insertion for a hash table is O(log n)
23:59:19 <ais523> but in most practical cases it's O(1)
23:59:24 <pikhq> Average case is O(1), yeah.
23:59:46 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: O(0) means that the function is eventually 0
23:59:58 <ais523> however, I insist on using the O(log n) definition when calculating computational classes as you're meant to take the worst case
00:00:07 <myname> there are crazy randomized sorting algorithms that have o(1) sub-runtimes
00:00:08 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: there is a number x_0 above which f(x) is always 0
00:00:35 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: the constant function 1 is O(1) but not O(0)
00:00:49 <alercah> if f \in O(g), then O(f) \subseteq O(g)
00:01:00 <myname> like, "input is bad 1/n^2 of the time, in this case just quicksort" will lead to (n log n)/n^2 being in o(1)
00:01:40 <ais523> myname: quicksort isn't actually O(n log n)…
00:01:41 <oerjan> <ais523> also I'm not convinced O(∞) is a real complexity class <-- i'd think it is a reasonably notation for the trivial "everything" class
00:01:53 <alercah> myname: how do you know that the input is bad only 1/n^2 of the time, though?
00:02:08 <alercah> myname: also no practical algorithm can be o(1)
00:02:12 <ais523> myname: it's O(n²) worst case
00:02:14 <myname> well, randomized quicksort
00:02:28 <ais523> and although you have control over what the worst case is (and can make it random via randomized quicksort), you can never guarantee you don't hit it
00:02:29 <alercah> you might be thinking o(n)
00:03:05 <ais523> alercah: I think o(n) is dubious due to space ≤ time
00:03:17 <ais523> if something runs faster than O(n) it can't possibly look at all the input
00:03:36 <alercah> I think myname is saying a probabilistic algorithm though
00:03:37 <ais523> although that makes sense for things like mutating a data structure, where the whole point is that you don't want to look at the structure itself
00:03:47 <alercah> (which is distinct from a randomized algorithm)
00:03:57 <alercah> myname: o(1) means that there is no minimum time
00:04:44 <myname> i want algorithms in o(0)!
00:04:46 <ais523> agreed, o(1) basically means that it's always possible to get a faster runtime via making the problem bigger
00:05:17 <ais523> (not necessarily that making it bigger /always/ makes it faster; just that there's always some way to make it faster via making it bigger, you can select how much bigger)
00:05:51 -!- Cale has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:05:55 <HackEgo> A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
00:06:41 <ais523> `? natural transformation
00:06:43 <HackEgo> A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
00:07:00 <ais523> this seems to break with the pattern of the other category theory entries
00:07:03 <ais523> was it so hard to explain?
00:07:10 <tswett> `slwd morphism//s/functors on/diagrams of
00:07:11 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 25: unterminated `s' command
00:07:14 <ais523> I was hoping for something along the lines of Quiler
00:07:15 <tswett> `slwd morphism//s/functors on/diagrams of/
00:07:16 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Quiler
00:07:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/morphism//A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of 1.
00:07:34 <HackEgo> tsweẗt fizzïe evilips̈e oerjän shachäf ellioẗt oerjän ellioẗt Bik̈e FreeFul̈l ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ellioẗt FreeFul̈l oerjän fizzïe GreyKnigḧt GreyKnigḧt GreyKnigḧt
00:08:04 <tswett> I learned about the word "diagram" recently.
00:08:05 <ais523> that's a lot of random umlauts
00:08:16 <tswett> A diagram is like a functor...
00:08:25 <HackEgo> A diagram is just a functor.
00:08:29 <tswett> Because a diagram is the same thing as a functor...
00:08:45 <shachaf> A functor from a free category on some graph, often.
00:08:47 <tswett> But a diagram is thought of as a collection rather than a transformation!
00:08:49 <ais523> `mkx bin/rb//rm "bin/$1"
00:09:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rb: not found
00:09:54 <ais523> tswett: huh, the definition of diagram I use (which is probably a different definition) is a representation of a set of categorical equations
00:10:01 <shachaf> it would be spooky if the error was "rb: bin/rb: file not found"
00:10:15 <shachaf> ais523: Are you talking about a commutative diagram in particular?
00:10:32 <shachaf> Usually a diagram doesn't represent any equations by itself.
00:10:48 <ais523> shachaf: err, yes, commutative diagrams
00:11:10 <ais523> `mkx bin/rself//rm bin/rself
00:11:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rself: not found
00:11:24 <shachaf> ais523: bin/slist had prior art
00:11:25 <ais523> there, a better version of the idea
00:11:34 <ais523> although it's not going to beat /bin/cd
00:11:51 <shachaf> I wrote a cd program once.
00:11:57 <shachaf> It attached to its parent with a debugger and made a chdir call.
00:12:06 <ais523> yes, that's exactly how mine works too
00:12:11 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/ZdTB
00:12:31 <shachaf> In retrospect maybe I should've thought of that.
00:12:40 <ais523> what, you used ptrace directly?
00:12:50 <tswett> Totally unrelated to anything!
00:12:54 <tswett> I have this philosophy philosophy.
00:13:00 <shachaf> Also I used the system call instead of the libc chdir() call.
00:13:08 <ais523> actually my version fails on filenames that contain literal double quotes or backslashes
00:13:14 <ais523> because gdb tries to C-unescape them
00:13:27 <ais523> so yours is probably better
00:14:07 <tswett> I think that if there is no solid argument for a claim, then the claim probably isn't true.
00:14:13 <ais523> on the subject of /bin/cd, I've heard that goto used to be an executable
00:14:13 <tswett> Consider the claim that qualia exist or whatever.
00:14:18 <ais523> that worked via editing the shell script that called it
00:14:23 <shachaf> And I think glibc caches the working directory so it broke some things that used getcwd.
00:14:29 <tswett> There exists no solid argument for that claim! I can poke holes in any of them!
00:14:40 <ais523> tswett: what if there isn't a solid argument either for or against? does that make the claim both probably true and probably false?
00:14:40 <imode> goto used be an executable? awesome.
00:15:06 <tswett> Therefore, the claim that qualia exist probably isn't true.
00:15:43 <tswett> ais523: well, a claim doesn't have to be false for it to be non-true.
00:16:05 <tswett> If I claim that x = y, without specifying what x and y are supposed to be, that's not really either true or false.
00:16:06 <ais523> e.g. it could be meaningless, or paradoxical
00:16:12 <tswett> It's non-true and non-false.
00:16:14 <ais523> or irrelevant, or malformed
00:23:54 <ais523> can you give an example of a Zen statement which doesn't have one of the truth values listed above?
00:24:24 <ais523> I guess the Zen style is to make a statement that's apparently exceedingly metaphorical, but there's no way to resolve the metaphor into actual concepts you understand
00:25:23 <ais523> boily: mu was a Zen /answer/ to a question
00:25:26 <ais523> which unasked the question
00:25:42 -!- computing has joined.
00:25:45 <ais523> interestingly, this is pretty much what throwing an exception does in most programming languages with structured exceptions
00:26:08 <ais523> huh, I just realised NetHack 4 also has the possibility of unasking a question
00:26:13 -!- Cale has joined.
00:26:17 <ais523> but this time, it's the person who asked the question who unasks it
00:26:30 <shachaf> aren't exceptions sufficient for some sort of non-constructive logic thing
00:26:48 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:27:01 <ais523> how much extra control structure do you need for try/catch/throw to be TC?
00:27:10 <Zarutian> shachaf: you are talking about backtracking like in prolog?
00:27:16 <ais523> actually you probably also need unthrow or there's no clear way to store data
00:30:40 <fizzie> Huh, I just realized -- when someone removes the canary, it's not actually restored immediately; the commit is just skipped, and the canary is only restored after the next command has been run for the first time. I will demonstrate.
00:30:47 <fizzie> `` echo $(date +%s) $(ls -l canary 2>&1) >> tmp/canary.txt; rm canary
00:30:56 <HackEgo> 1476833406 ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory \ 1476833407 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 4 Oct 18 23:30 canary
00:31:07 <fizzie> On the first run, there wasn't a canary.
00:31:22 <fizzie> `` rm tmp/canary.txt # cleanup
00:31:54 <ais523> fizzie: so after deleting the canary, the next command runs twice?
00:32:29 <fizzie> Yes. Well, it would run twice in any case if it did any commit-worthy changes. But it will run twice regardless, because the canary will be missing, and that looks like a change.
00:32:45 <shachaf> fizzie: Aha, this explains why something I did a while ago that I thought should have removed the canary didn't do it.
00:33:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
00:33:48 <ais523> `` echo test >> tmp/echotest.txt
00:34:13 <shachaf> Nothing in tmp/ gets logged to hg in any case.
00:34:25 <ais523> ah right, that's why there was only one copy?
00:35:04 <fizzie> It's actually not just the canary that's not restored; it's everything else as well. If the canary is gone, the code just skips the commit bit, but leaves the repo potentially-bad. You just normally can't tell, because even if that would cause the next command to behave strangely, that run is more or less ignored as the code thinks it made changes, and therefore restores the state and re-runs.
00:36:01 <ais523> is this where the "Hack" part of HackEgo comes from?
00:36:11 <shachaf> `` sed 's#eval#rm canary; eval#' bin/\` > bin/'('
00:36:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/(: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/(: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:37:05 <HackEgo> cat: test: No such file or directory
00:40:05 <fizzie> I think what happened there was: `( date > test ran once, removed canary, wrote test. That looked like a change in the repository, so it was restored to pristine state and re-executed, doing the same thing. Between the commands, canary was missing and test exited. Then `cat test ran for the first time; afterwards, the code thought that had made commit-worthy changes (because canary was missing ...
00:40:11 <fizzie> ... and test was added) so it restored the world, and re-executed `cat test, at which point test no longer existed (and canary was back), so no commit was made.
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00:46:05 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
00:47:48 -!- gniourf has joined.
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00:50:05 <fizzie> Yeah, the last cat ran twice.
00:50:36 <HackEgo> Tue Oct 18 23:49:47 UTC 2016 \ Tue Oct 18 23:49:48 UTC 2016
00:51:44 * boily is updating the PDF sources... ♪
00:52:53 <oerjan> boily: i guess it's good `? canary is no longer an ELF binary, then.
00:53:29 <hppavilion[1]> Funtime activity: Convert any number that references degrees (including any "<n> degrees" AND any occurrence of the numbers {180, 360*n for positive integer n)) to radians
00:54:20 <fizzie> It also uses a shared lock for the first run, and an exclusive one for the second, which probably more or less works, but there's still some racey things. E.g. if you manage to run a command that adds a file and one that removes the same file in parallel, it's possible to end up with no commits, which wouldn't be a possible outcome for either of the two possible sequential orderings.
00:54:34 <boily> oerjan: it all hinges on your definition of "good". some people in here like to throw some curveballs in the wisdom database...
00:54:49 <HackEgo> _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
00:54:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it applies to _all_ irc lines, ever, hth
00:55:06 <boily> is _46bit a person or a thing?
00:55:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...so you just removed he word 'radians' or...?
00:56:57 <oerjan> as you know, it's redundant.
00:57:19 <boily> I'm tempted to file them under Tanebventions. they'll be personed if they return.
00:57:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Or that started going by something else. Maybe there's a _32nat here somewhere?)
00:57:42 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:58:03 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s/BBC/BBC, _46bit/
00:58:04 -!- computing has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:58:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:58:19 <hppavilion[1]> ("structions" as in "destruction", not as in "construction")
00:59:53 -!- digitalc1ld has changed nick to digitalcold.
01:06:28 <hppavilion[1]> https://twitter.com/tldrwikipedia?lang=en is a lot like wisdom...
01:13:22 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/alpha
01:13:24 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e oerjän b_jonäs
01:13:51 <boily> @ask wob_jonas wellob_jonas. letteral?
01:15:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it seems a lot more cynical tdnh
01:15:39 <HackEgo> Alpha is the numeric measurement of opaqueness, a dog with unusually high voice in the Disney-Pixar Up film, and a NATO phonetic alphabet letteral.
01:16:32 <oerjan> it's to letter what a numeral is to a number hth
01:16:36 <boily> one never knows. maybe it's a typographical letter?
01:17:17 <boily> . o O ( there should be an Edible Chapter in the PDF. so many food entries... )
01:18:30 <oerjan> it will include all the food and johnny depp.
01:20:03 <HackEgo> <b_jonäs> learn alpha is the numeric measurement of opaqueness, a dog with unusually high voice in the Disney-Pixar Up film, and a NATO phonetic alphabet letteral. \ <oerjän> ` sed -i sbabAb wisdom/alpha \ <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1
01:22:11 * oerjan tempted to add bin/{h,d}o{w,a}t
01:22:20 <boily> ♪ DING ♪ little PDF update! some symbols, and entries in A!
01:22:54 <oerjan> `` ls bin/{h,d}o{w,a}t
01:22:55 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/howt: No such file or directory \ ls: cannot access bin/hoat: No such file or directory \ ls: cannot access bin/dowt: No such file or directory \ ls: cannot access bin/doat: No such file or directory
01:23:30 <oerjan> `` echo bin/{h,d}o{w,a}{g,t}
01:23:30 <HackEgo> bin/howg bin/howt bin/hoag bin/hoat bin/dowg bin/dowt bin/doag bin/doat
01:23:49 <oerjan> `` echo bin/{h,d}?{w,a}{g,t}
01:23:50 <HackEgo> bin/howg bin/h?wt bin/hoag bin/h?at bin/dowg bin/d?wt bin/doag bin/d?at
01:24:25 <oerjan> hm i've got a bad feeling about this
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01:30:45 <boily> moonheart08: that's NSFB.
01:33:34 <moonheart08> what do you all think should go on health and safety guidelines for Astatine? ( http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/at.htm )
01:33:53 <HackEgo> B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h
01:34:10 <boily> how the actual fungot suis-je supposé formatter ça? AAAAAAAAARGH!
01:34:10 <fungot> boily: that's completely wrong. this might be
01:34:19 <boily> fungot: of course it's wrong!!!!
01:34:19 <fungot> boily: when i get inspiration. and inspiration is closely related with the ordinal numbers as well: dotted and circular lists. a circular list
01:34:44 <moonheart08> notice: that dialog was not faked, its part of a actual site&service (forgot which one), also, image not by me :P
01:35:08 <boily> fungot: well, you can shove your inspiration deep where brainfuck derivatives grow.
01:35:09 <fungot> boily: form and value of greek letter came from the class? sicp, i have to
01:35:39 <moonheart08> what do you all think should go on health and safety guidelines for Astatine? ( http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/at.htm ) << following the XKCD route, i personally think: NO scrawled over and over in blood -- What-If book
01:39:39 <oerjan> `` wc wisdom/brilliant
01:39:40 <HackEgo> 1 16 476 wisdom/brilliant
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01:40:11 <oerjan> `` wc <<<'B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h'
01:40:25 <oerjan> boily: it seems to be cut off a bit hth
01:40:44 <oerjan> maybe check out the repo browser.
01:42:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/brilliant
01:42:47 <boily> at least 'B' is now updated too.
01:43:11 <oerjan> yep, the file contains the whole original phrase
01:44:16 <oerjan> my copying and pasting cut away the colors
01:45:58 <HackEgo> Boring means of little interest.
01:46:25 <HackEgo> The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too.
01:46:50 <oerjan> `` cwlprits internet # if this isn't zzo38...
01:46:52 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e shachäf hppavilion[1̈] olsnër
01:47:16 <oerjan> `` cwlprits internet | tac
01:47:18 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e shachäf hppavilion[1̈] olsnër
01:47:33 <oerjan> `` howg internet | tac
01:47:35 <HackEgo> <olsnër> learn The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too. \ <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn_append internet/Except porn. \ <shachäf> revert \ <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1
01:47:53 <oerjan> it is possible olsner was quoting him though
01:49:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Your guess is: correct.
01:50:05 <fizzie> (Date ref 2016-02-15.)
01:54:42 <oerjan> <izalove> https://github.com/izabera/s <-- . o O ( you're doing the s/// thing all wrong... )
01:57:30 <boily> oh, a wild github account!
01:58:11 <boily> izabellora. you are invited to become a cocoonspirator.
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02:02:55 <boily> Github now sends an invitation for private repositories, instead of joining you at once.
02:03:35 <HackEgo> The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too.
02:05:10 <boily> it's to give them commit access to the PDF repo hth
02:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a simple equation that calculates the sum of ax+b, for all integers x in a range?
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02:18:50 <izabera> like a*1+b + a*2+b + a*3+b ... ?
02:20:01 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I already have an answer to this problem, now I just need to make it pretty
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02:27:17 <oerjan> izabera: it's off by 1 in one term or the other, dependent on whether the range is 0..n or 1..n hth
02:28:24 <oerjan> anyway, n*b + a*n*(n+1)/2 for 1..n
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02:46:13 <hppavilion[1]> In Soviet Russia... Big Brother still watches YOU... what did YOU expect?
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02:53:19 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
02:53:27 <HackEgo> In ancient history, the Soviet Union used to be the THEM. They believed in absurd principles like "Better Red than Dead". Then Ronald Reagan invented Star Wars to destroy it, after which there seemed to be no the THEM for a while.
02:54:50 <HackEgo> Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
02:55:50 <tswett> Today I read the first part of a webcomic called "The Din".
02:55:56 <tswett> I learned what it's about.
02:58:46 <oerjan> `le/rn soviet russia//Soviet Russia used to be a synonym for the Soviet Union. In reality, the Soviet Union dissolved. Meanwhile, Soviet Russia dissolved reality, and you are a figment of its imagination.
02:58:48 <HackEgo> Relearned 'soviet russia': /Soviet Russia used to be a synonym for the Soviet Union. In reality, the Soviet Union dissolved. Meanwhile, Soviet Russia dissolved reality, and you are a figment of its imagination.
03:00:10 <HackEgo> 2016-10-19 <oerjän> le/rn soviet russia//Soviet Russia used to be a synonym for the Soviet Union. In reality, the Soviet Union dissolved. Meanwhile, Soviet Russia dissolved reality, and you are a figment of its imagination. \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-05-31 <shachäf> revert 8238
03:00:28 <oerjan> `before wisdom/soviet russia
03:00:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/soviet russia//¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
03:00:36 <shachaf> fizzie: have you considered rewriting history to filter out those annoying edits twh
03:00:54 <oerjan> shachaf: caught by my own joke :(
03:01:02 <oerjan> well, it may have been mine
03:01:04 <shachaf> `` dowg soviet\ russia | tac
03:01:06 <HackEgo> 2016-04-14 <oerjän> le/rn soviet russia/\xc2\xaf\\(\xc2\xb0\xe2\x80\x8b_o)/\xc2\xaf soviet russia? \ 2016-04-17 <b_jonäs> slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. \ 2016-04-17 <int-̈e> revert \ 2016-05-31 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry /would/ read you if it weren\'t for
03:01:09 <hppavilion[1]> (Challenge: All former constituents of the USSR must be given a distinct translation of normal facts that is true within its Soviet borders)
03:01:19 <oerjan> `slwd soviet russia//s,/,,
03:01:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/soviet russia//Soviet Russia used to be a synonym for the Soviet Union. In reality, the Soviet Union dissolved. Meanwhile, Soviet Russia dissolved reality, and you are a figment of its imagination.
03:01:42 <shachaf> oerjan: Maybe we should switch le/rn to use // for consistency?
03:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. when normally [x] =a> [y], in Soviet Russia, [y] =a> [x])
03:03:40 <hppavilion[1]> (Facts are provided as a 3-tuple of 2-tuples ((actor, desc1), (actee, desc2), (act, manner)) )
03:03:53 <shachaf> i,i `le//rn http://http:// indicates an HTTP URL.
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03:05:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Only if we also have `le///rn, `le////rn, etc.
03:05:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: we do have that automatically.
03:05:38 <shachaf> le/rn and le//rn already exist, and split on / and // respectively
03:05:47 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/forwards: No such file or directory
03:05:48 <shachaf> I'm proposing making le/rn split on //
03:06:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'forwards': forwards? ¯\(°_o)/¯
03:06:20 <tswett> `le//rn Since when does le//rn exist?
03:06:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'since when does le': rn exist?
03:06:31 <tswett> `forget since when does le
03:06:48 <tswett> Next question: how does le//rn exist?
03:06:50 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But the pun is better if there's ACTUALLY a file, for no reason at all
03:06:59 <tswett> Aren't bin/le/rn and bin/le//rn the same path?
03:06:59 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
03:07:15 <shachaf> They're distinct paths that refer to the same file.
03:08:32 <tswett> `run ln -s ../` le////temp
03:08:33 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
03:08:40 <tswett> `run ln -s '../`' le////temp
03:08:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/le////temp: No such file or directory
03:09:12 <hppavilion[1]> In America, radiation poisoning kills you slowly. In Soviet Kazakhstan, radiation poisoning slows you lethally!
03:09:32 <tswett> I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing hth.
03:09:37 <HackEgo> le/temp: broken symbolic link to `../`'
03:10:05 <shachaf> if you need to experiment you can do it in tmp/
03:10:43 <hppavilion[1]> In total, there are 719 soviet republics, plus America which has all the facts straight
03:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> (There aren't nearly enough countries in the real world, so we'll have to choose fictional countries too)
03:13:23 <hppavilion[1]> (In Soviet Narnia, Aslan teach YOU values to Christianity!)
03:13:40 <tswett> `le/rn CCCP is a misspelling of СССР.
03:13:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's not even backwards hth
03:14:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Only Soviet Russia is backwards, other Soviet countries use different permutations
03:14:31 <tswett> `learn CCCP is a misspelling of СССР.
03:14:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'cccp': CCCP is a misspelling of СССР.
03:14:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:14:59 <HackEgo> [U+0043 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C] [U+0043 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C] [U+0043 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C] [U+0050 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P] [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0421 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES] [U+0420 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ER]
03:15:57 <tswett> `learn СССР is the Russian way of writing USSR. They like to write U as С sometimes.
03:15:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'СССР': СССР is the Russian way of writing USSR. They like to write U as С sometimes.
03:16:34 <tswett> `run mv wisdom/СССР wisdom/ссср
03:16:43 <tswett> All this Cyrillic is so confusing.
03:17:18 <oerjan> tswett: um the lower casing only works for english alphabet and Ø hth
03:17:25 <oerjan> (and maybe a couple other letters)
03:17:50 <oerjan> and in fact, there are wisdoms differing on the rest
03:20:29 <HackEgo> å is the same letter as Å, unless you're HackEgo and don't understand things on top of letters.
03:20:33 <HackEgo> Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
03:21:17 <oerjan> hm if that's the only one, then it would be sort of redundant once it's fixed...
03:21:55 <shachaf> I think HackEgo's issue is that it doesn't understand uppercase letters.
03:22:14 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn nø/nø means 'Char', apparently. Maybe like when you burn a lot?
03:22:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'nø': nø means 'Char', apparently. Maybe like when you burn a lot?
03:22:28 <shachaf> And the etymology (or at least itymology) or "uppercase" letter is that they're letters in the "upper case", from the old days of type-setting.
03:22:43 <shachaf> So it's more an issue with understanding letters on top of things.
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03:23:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it makes no sense hth
03:23:28 <zgrep> <tswett> All this Cyrillic is so confusing. <-- сыриллик из нот конфузинг
03:23:32 <shachaf> oerjan: https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/n%C3%B8 hth
03:23:48 <shachaf> i would dewisdom it, if it was up to me
03:24:15 <tswett> I love writing languages in the wrong alphabet.
03:25:21 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:25:38 <HackEgo> CCCP is a misspelling of СССР.
03:25:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i am pretty sure hawaiian does not have "ø" hth
03:25:55 <zgrep> Communist Cravings Cannot Prosper
03:26:41 <hppavilion[1]> Presumably it's just a different way of transcribing
03:27:57 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: We have a handy new command for that now <-- you mean a handy _old_ command hth
03:28:07 <tswett> `run ln -s wisdom/ссср wisdom/СССР
03:28:31 <tswett> `run ln -s ссср wisdom/СССР
03:28:35 <HackEgo> СССР is the Russian way of writing USSR. They like to write U as С sometimes.
03:29:07 <shachaf> You mean they like to write U and S as С
03:29:21 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Presumably it's just a different way of transcribing <-- i am also pretty sure hawaiian is written in a mostly latin alphabet.
03:29:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Pretty sure ø counts as a latin alphabet character
03:30:35 <tswett> `learn СССР is the Russian way of writing USSR. The Cyrillic letter С means S, and it also means U.
03:30:37 <HackEgo> Relearned 'СССР': СССР is the Russian way of writing USSR. The Cyrillic letter С means S, and it also means U.
03:30:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what i mean is, you wouldn't transcribe hawaiian.
03:31:01 <HackEgo> Balrogs live at the bottom of the world.
03:31:08 <ybden> ^ context for this?
03:31:23 <ais523> oerjan: that "hawaiian" needs extra diareses
03:32:05 <ais523> I'm not 100% sure how it's pronounced
03:32:16 <oerjan> ais523: hawai`ian except it's not that `
03:32:47 <ybden> hppavilion[1]: thanks
03:33:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: H̀awaií´: not found
03:34:07 <hppavilion[1]> I was hoping that would trigger evil alternate dimension HackEgo
03:34:29 <shachaf> but the output is in the evil alternate dimension
03:34:55 <shachaf> http://kilgoretroutstories.tumblr.com/post/16737051380/maniacs-in-the-fourth-dimension-by-kilgore hth
03:35:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Then why didn't our HackEgo respond to a query from evil alternate dimension macbookair_1 tdnh
03:37:46 <shachaf> evil oerjan has already banned that user
03:37:59 <shachaf> in fact evil oerjan has banned almost everyone
03:39:47 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian woof octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:41:11 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
03:41:15 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#mysterious#renouned itymologist#;s#we##
03:41:17 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your renouned itymologist evil bulgarian woof octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:42:57 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#mildly#passionfruitly#;s# and passion fruit##
03:43:00 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your renouned itymologist evil bulgarian woof octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:43:05 <tswett> It's probably part of the joke.
03:43:14 <tswett> I don't know who wrote the wisdom entry for "os" or why.
03:43:24 <HackEgo> Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on the author's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
03:43:24 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e oerjan_nop̈e oerjän maurïs tsweẗt
03:43:31 <tswett> I used to not know who had written the wisdom entry for sex.
03:43:46 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#bulgarian woof ##
03:43:47 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your renouned itymologist evil octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:44:08 <shachaf> isn't it goof, bulgarian woof
03:44:17 <tswett> Suggest "suture computation" wth?
03:44:32 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e tsweẗt oerjän oerjän tsweẗt
03:44:44 <tswett> I looked up who wrote the wisdom entry for sex and was surprised to find that it was me.
03:44:53 <HackEgo> 2016-10-18 <oerjän> slwd oerjan//s/comput/complic/
03:45:25 <shachaf> What, you rate diacritics now?
03:45:32 <shachaf> Some sort of diacritic critic?
03:48:27 <oerjan> Diakritik der reinen Vernunft
03:48:33 <shachaf> http://hca.gilead.org.il/somethin.html is a story by Hans Christian Andersen.
03:48:44 <shachaf> There's a character who was a critic all his life.
03:48:51 <shachaf> So everyone expected him to diacritic.
03:49:10 <oerjan> i suspect that wasn't andersen's pun
03:50:55 <tswett> Hey, let me give y'all guys a piece of code I wrote.
03:51:16 <tswett> public inductive plus_zero_left(x : Nat) : plus(zero, x) = x over x { zero := plus.zero(zero); succ(y) := path plus(zero, succ(y)) rewrite plus.succ to succ(plus(zero, y)) rewrite base to succ(y) end; }
03:55:46 <oerjan> shachaf: "diacritic" hth
03:56:43 <shachaf> oerjan: I mean: Did Andersen have a pun in mind?
03:56:50 <shachaf> But maybe you didn't intend the sentence that way.
03:59:59 <shachaf> Why does the second derivative have two arguments?
04:00:05 <shachaf> What does it mean to vary the first or the second one?
04:03:59 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: http://hca.gilead.org.il/somethin.html really makes the t-v distinction important
04:04:24 <hppavilion[1]> To the point that it specifies the use of the word 'thou' as an insult, which nobody today understands in the slightest
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04:05:07 <shachaf> I suspect that it's translated from Danish.
04:05:16 <shachaf> Anyway, I think people today understand that.
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04:08:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I wouldn't if I hadn't clicked on a random video at some point to learn it
04:08:59 <hppavilion[1]> I still like the idea of a complex system of honorific cursing
04:11:23 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: some language I'm making.
04:11:53 <tswett> I'm trying to write a compiler from itself into C#.
04:12:12 <tswett> Which, yeah, kind of presents an obvious bootstrapping problem.
04:15:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure you generally write the normal-language compiler FIRST, THEN you self-host
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05:13:32 <shachaf> What's the derivative of the sphere x^2+y^2+z^2=1?
05:23:58 <oerjan> and once again, it amounts to the radius being normal to any tangent vector
05:24:45 <oerjan> 2x dx + 2y dy + 2z dz = 0
05:25:06 <shachaf> Are you allowed to do that?
05:25:22 <oerjan> well add a /dt to taste
05:25:44 <shachaf> Oh, you're still parameterizing everything in terms of t. #scow
05:26:01 <shachaf> Anyway the derivative at any point is a plane.
05:27:04 <oerjan> you might want to ask someone who actually learned differential geometry properly...
05:27:35 <shachaf> Let's see what x dx + y dy + z dz = 0 does.
05:28:15 <shachaf> dy/dx = -z/y dz/dx - x/y ?
05:28:35 <shachaf> I guess that's a "total derivative".
05:28:51 <shachaf> Where the "partial derivative" ∂y/∂x = -x/y
05:29:18 <quintopia> i learned the first couple of chapters
05:31:01 <shachaf> I guess you can say: \(x,y,z) -> \(dx,dy,dz) -> x*dx + y*dy + z*dz
05:31:23 <shachaf> The plane is the zero set of that linear map.
05:32:55 <shachaf> Or equivalently, \(x,y,z) -> x dx + y dy + z dz
05:33:08 <shachaf> Where d{x,y,z} are a covector basis for the tangent space.
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05:38:27 <quintopia> i mean, its the correct *family* of planes. but how do you use it to specify tangent planes to a *particular* sphere? just add the constraint on (x,y,z)?
05:39:44 <shachaf> For any point on the sphere, that function specifies a tangent plane.
05:39:52 <shachaf> This happens to work for a sphere of any radius.
05:40:20 <shachaf> But if your sphere has radius 1 then you shouldn't use that function on other points.
05:40:29 <shachaf> The domain is the sphere, I guess.
05:40:57 <quintopia> i guess you just add the other constraint if you want "the set of tangent planes to this particular sphere"
05:41:42 <quintopia> you do the same thing with any diffeq
06:02:58 <shachaf> oerjan: What's the second derivative of the sphere?
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07:05:20 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 2376.48906005893
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07:08:17 <hppavilion[1]> How DOES one combine two tones? Do you just add their values at each interval, or... what?
07:09:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, it probably won't be add so much as... something, maybe 1/((1-(1/a))+(1-(1/b)))? )
07:10:50 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Tone like a sound. Like, I generate waveforms that play a certain wavelength at a certain frequency with a certain amplitude, and I want to play two at once
07:11:56 <shachaf> Are a and b in your expression tones? What are their types?
07:12:41 <hppavilion[1]> (Ideally, they're arbitrary real numbers, but obviously not properly)
07:13:14 <shachaf> And what do you do with those values?
07:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Right, right, I'm reading my own message wrong
07:14:45 <hppavilion[1]> I have a function that generates a waveform (typically sinusoidal) with a specific frequency and amplitude (it appears wavelength is irrelevant here; maybe I'm just forgetting that it means something else)
07:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> It generates it by taking the attributes and creating an array of bytes for the samples
07:15:10 <shachaf> Are you saying that a tone is a waveform?
07:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm confusing myself. Basically I'm trying to say a-note-played-for-a-duration
07:16:14 <shachaf> Are you saying that some waveforms represent tones and others don't?
07:16:37 <hppavilion[1]> Allow me to rearead the code- I haven't done this for a while
07:17:13 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm... I believe when I've been saying 'waveform' I mean 'the bytearray of samples that represents what sound to make'
07:19:00 <shachaf> maybe you should mean something else hth
07:19:35 <shachaf> You could go by what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveform says.
07:20:12 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's more that I know what I mean and I'm using related-but-wrong words
07:20:32 <shachaf> I don't know anything about sound, but those pictures there look like like periodic functions of time to me.
07:20:54 <shachaf> So maybe you can say that a waveform is a function.
07:20:59 <hppavilion[1]> OK... I have a function gen_sine(frequency, duration, volume, sample_rate=22050) that takes those variables and returns an array of bytes representing... samples. I don't understand how the speaker itself works.
07:21:46 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm not sure what the samples represent; I want to say "how much to vibrate", but I feel like that makes no sense
07:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> I guess a sample is probably how much to vibrate... or something...
07:22:19 <shachaf> You should forget the samples for a bit and look at that page.
07:22:33 <shachaf> The samples are an approximation of something. That's why they're called samples.
07:22:33 <hppavilion[1]> But yes, the sound is basically a periodic function which is USUALLY sinusoidal but COULD be sawtooth or triangle or square or whatever
07:23:56 <shachaf> OK, so the sound is a function.
07:24:40 <shachaf> Maybe those samples are sampling the function? Measuring it every so often and looking at the value at each point?
07:24:45 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it makes sense to skip the bytearray in the theoretical and just say gen_sine(...) returns a sine function
07:25:05 <shachaf> Like I said I don't know anything about sound, but that seems like a plausible thing for a sample to be.
07:25:13 <hppavilion[1]> And I have an output stream that I can send one function to at a time
07:25:24 <shachaf> OK, so what does your byte array represent?
07:25:45 <shachaf> Maybe it's the value of the function x-second intervals.
07:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Outputs of the function pre-packaged so they don't have to be calculated WHILE playing
07:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: 1/22050 typically, but it CAN be varied I'm pretty sure
07:27:04 <shachaf> Well, you're the one making the byte array, presumably you should know.
07:27:29 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(signal_processing) confirms it.
07:27:50 <shachaf> OK, well, I learned how samples work now, which I didn't know before, so I'm happy at least.
07:28:04 <shachaf> Now that you know what a waveform is, what's a tone?
07:28:05 <hppavilion[1]> So when I send the function to the stream, the stream plays the output until the function stops returning data (lets say it returns a Null to indicate that it's done)
07:28:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I think a tone just means a waveform here...
07:28:32 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 60.12 2649 400
07:28:32 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 2635.18424420613
07:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But it generally has to be a pretty simple one... presumably...
07:28:45 <shachaf> Then how do you "combine two tones"?
07:29:08 <shachaf> Is a tone just a waveform or is it a specific type of waveform?
07:29:17 <shachaf> For example, if you record yourself talking, is that a tone?
07:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Basically you just find what function to send to the stream to generate a chord; play both sounds together
07:29:55 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I think "tone" is just a kind of not-very-rigorous term I was using because it sounded about right
07:31:06 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_tone says that a tone has to be periodic.
07:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> So, the note A-below-middle-C as you hear from any instrument (that meets the standard) is the waveform with period of 440/s
07:33:28 <shachaf> I think maybe you mean that the frequency is 440/s?
07:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> Middle C's pitch under the same standard is approximately 261.6 (the number is irrational because you change by the 12th root of 2 as you go up one semitone (A -> A#, A# -> B, etc.)
07:33:34 <shachaf> And the period is 1/440 s?
07:35:28 <hppavilion[1]> And I want to figure out how to play multiple notes- say, Middle C and A above middle C- at the same time out of the speakers
07:35:36 <shachaf> OK. So how do you "combine" two waveforms?
07:36:13 <shachaf> I speculate that the answer is that you sum the functions at each point.
07:36:37 <hppavilion[1]> It might just be adding them, but it might also be midpoint (mid(a, b) = (a+b)/2) or even something involving harmonic sum
07:37:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: See, that's my first thought, but the samples have to be bytes- 0..255. If you try to go higher, it breaks
07:37:42 <hppavilion[1]> I seriously doubt you're supposed to do modulus, but capping it out- the most natural-seeming answer- doesn't seem quite right
07:37:48 <shachaf> OK, I didn't know what the codomain of the waveform was.
07:40:01 <hppavilion[1]> In the program, you multiply sin(t) (t being time) (which has codomain of -1..1 obv.) by 0x7f and add 0x80
07:40:02 <shachaf> Anyway, you can do some experiments now.
07:40:35 <shachaf> If you say a tone is a periodic waveform, and the tone's pitch is its frequency, then the sum of two tones is also a tone, right?
07:40:48 <hppavilion[1]> OK, but I'm pretty tonedeaf (probably), so it'll boil down to more "does it not sound entirely wrong" rather than "does it sound right"
07:40:51 <shachaf> (Since you're not doing bizarro maths so the sum of two periodic functions is probably periodic.)
07:41:18 <shachaf> If you're deaf, it doesn't matter which tones you use.
07:42:24 <shachaf> Which means you can't distinguish tones?
07:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> No, it's... I don't know if it actually means anything
07:42:38 <shachaf> In that case you don't need to add tones, because they're all equivalent.
07:42:55 <hppavilion[1]> It just means I'm bad at telling if it sounds particularly good or if it's a weird noise
07:43:16 <shachaf> Why do you care about something you can't tell?
07:44:11 <shachaf> Anyway, I suspect you can tell if you try it. Play tone A for a bit, and then tone B for a bit, and then play them both.
07:44:27 <shachaf> I mean the "combined" tone for various proposals of combining tones.
07:45:13 <shachaf> Then you can see if you can come up with the effect you want.
07:45:23 <shachaf> (Am I being patronizing or something? I hope not.)
07:46:39 <shachaf> You could also think of what properties you want "combining" to have, and then think of functions that satisfy them.
07:47:24 <shachaf> For example, if you combine a tone with itself, it should probably keep the same pitch?
07:47:38 <shachaf> How do you play the byte arrays that you generate?
07:47:54 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm pretty sure 'combining' is a defined concept that I just don't know the proper word for
07:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I put them in a magic box that comes from a library and it makes it come out of the speakers
07:50:48 <hppavilion[1]> (I already can make the computer play Ode to Joy, now I just need to make it so it can play literally any song that requires chords to sound right :P)
07:52:07 <shachaf> This sounds like fun so I'll probably try making some sound.
07:52:46 <shachaf> It looks like the [0..255] codomain thing is called the "sample width" and in some cases it's larger.
07:52:52 <shachaf> But at any rate of course it'll be bounded.
08:15:16 <hppavilion[1]> Wow, xkcd did two comics in a row that were directly related that WEREN'T part of a numbered series
08:16:22 <hppavilion[1]> To the point that when I opened today's, it looked similar to yesterday's so I didn't read the main part... I noticed the hovertext was different and figured Randall must have changed it...
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08:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> (I wonder if hackmode is facilitated better with or without syntax highlighting... I have a feeling optimal hackmode is done green-on-black, fullscreen)
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08:43:04 <shachaf> Aha, I've successfully combined two sounds.
08:45:29 <shachaf> Maybe I didn't do it right. Who knows.
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09:12:39 <izalove> about the factorial problem
09:14:14 <izalove> get x! back from its factorization, then use stirling's approximation to guesstimate x, then compute factorials until you match x!
09:24:21 <olsner> <oerjan> it is possible olsner was quoting him though <- the line about the internet? doesn't look like me at least
09:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: you just said 'guesstimate'. You must be excommunicated.
09:39:45 <hppavilion[1]> Question: Are there any places you can go where you can PAY to jump over a shark?
09:52:49 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: You *are* supposed to sum the waveforms, that's essentially what happens if you have two pressure waves in air. The end result can be louder (unless you have, say, two pure tones of the same frequency and opposite phase), so you may have to scale the original sources to avoid clipping.
09:52:58 <fizzie> (Also, 8-bit samples are pretty retro; 16 bits would be more reasonable.)
09:53:33 <fizzie> I mean, these days people commonly even use floats or doubles for digital audio.
09:53:59 <fizzie> (At least for intermediate processing.)
09:57:08 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: My problem is figuring out what happens when a+b > 2**8 (or, now, 2**16)
09:57:53 <fizzie> The 6-vote answer at http://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/3581/algorithms-to-mix-audio-signals-without-clipping looks reasonable to me.
09:58:30 <myname> nice, you can use <= to make implications in code. great way to confuse people
09:58:36 <fizzie> But generally "you should avoid that, but if it does happen, you should do a saturating addition".
10:00:00 <fizzie> Also if you are dealing with unsigned samples, you do need to do K+(a-K)+(b-K) instead, where K would be 2^7 or 2^15.
10:01:11 <fizzie> (But preferrably you'd have your audio library give you signed values.)
10:05:33 <fizzie> (In which case you need to avoid values < -2**15 or >= 2**15 as the result of the sum.)
10:06:28 <shachaf> myname: This is why True should be <= False.
10:07:29 <shachaf> That would make the arrow point the right way.
10:07:36 <shachaf> Well, the left way. You know what I mean.
10:08:03 <shachaf> fizzie: oh man, 6-vote answer
10:08:14 <shachaf> that's like a 6-star review
10:12:16 <shachaf> Oh, I was asking the other day:
10:12:26 <shachaf> Is there a good online algorithm for strongly connected components?
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10:44:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unispace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50019&oldid=38261 * YSomebody * (+95) added unicode numbers
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10:57:02 <shachaf> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.version-control/nh4fITFlEMk
10:57:10 <shachaf> Maybe mercurial will be the future.
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11:46:34 <HackEgo> abnf//Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`. The older `::=` syntax will continue to be supported for orthogonal-compatibility purposes.
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11:52:42 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-04-23 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn ABNF/Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`. The older `::=` syntax will continue to be supported for orthog
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12:07:01 <b_jonas> and then there's EBNF and XBNF and SBNF and a lot of other languages for describing a recursive grammar, incompatible with each other, that are called BNF only by their name
12:13:14 <boily> . o O ( how do I macron again? )
12:18:06 <boily> DHelloadshot! in the context of LaTeX.
12:18:15 * boily is upgrading the Neverending PDF.
12:18:33 <boily> is Curry's Paradox a tanebvention?
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12:36:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50020&oldid=49873 * YSomebody * (+232)
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16:49:10 <b_jonas> @tell boily macron: try \=
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17:32:41 <\oren\> Yay, my reserved instances are working!
17:36:48 <\oren\> instead of paying 1.3 cents per hour, I'm paying only 0.57 cents per hour!
17:37:04 <\oren\> my computer time just got cheaper!
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17:44:24 <fizzie> Google Compute Engine gives you sustained-use discounts without having to commit to any sort of reservations, just sayin'.
17:51:30 <shachaf> "And if you don't need sustained uptime, it has a few options which are even cheaper," said fizzie preemptively.
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18:02:51 <hppavilion[1]> In math, you make certain assumptions (axioms) and use them to derive conclusions (theorems)
18:03:20 <hppavilion[1]> In law, you make certain assumptions (a constitution) and you can do anything you like, UNLESS it violates those assumptions
18:03:51 <izalove> you can do anything you like in math as well, as long as it doesn't violate your axioms
18:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Yes, but I'm saying that "the axioms don't disprove it" isn't the same as "it's true"
18:07:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, unless your... meta-axioms, I guess? say so, but nobody ever uses that)
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18:16:37 <\oren\> Essays are the opposite of the scientific method
18:17:02 <\oren\> In science, you ask a question and look to the evidence to find the answer
18:17:28 <\oren\> In an essay, you come up with an answer and look for evidence that supports it
18:18:22 <shachaf> I don't think that's what you do in an essay.
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18:22:30 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently a local elementary school used the emergency notification system to urge parents to attend a City Council meeting to oppose opening a Marijuana store
18:23:35 <hppavilion[1]> (God, 'j' is THE most overloaded letter- [dʒ], [j], [h], and [w] are all made by it in common english words, and half of those [h]s should be [x]s)
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18:55:24 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, I can fix my arrow keys (the UP and LEFT buttons aren't working, but it doesn't seem to be a hardware error because they occasionally work for no reason) by hitting LEFT then UP
19:01:37 <hppavilion[1]> But I have to redo it every time. For no apparent reason.
19:02:47 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: sometimes my IME messes with some keys
19:04:25 <hppavilion[1]> I have no idea WHAT bizarre setting would result in this, or why it would even exist
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19:39:44 <hppavilion[1]> Standard Proposal: SRISCII- Holy Roman Imperial Standard Code for Information Interchange
19:44:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes. Holy Roman Empire is abbreviated SRI for Sacrum Romanum Imperium
19:45:14 <myname> well, but that does not work for "holy roman _imperial_"
19:45:57 <hppavilion[1]> myname: The abbreviation is from the Latin name, the full name is in English so it's legible
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22:23:54 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, maybe I should make an aesthetics manual for programmer style preferences...
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22:42:30 <wob_jonas> man, I've used perl so much that I totally forgot how this classical unix text manipulation stuff works, had to check the manuals again, but now I remember:
22:44:28 <wob_jonas> sort both files (be careful with locale), then (join a b) to find lines shared among them, (join -v1 a b) to find lines only in a, (join -v2 a b) to find lines only in b, sort -k1 and join -j1 to compare only keys in first field, don't use comm because it's horribly confusing and error-prone
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22:53:06 <hppavilion[1]> The difference between a 'quasi-diacritic', which is a diacritical mark that is applied to a symbol, but where the resulting symbol is considered a new letter rather than a letter with a modifier, and a proper diacritic is that a proper diacritic can be used arbitrarily without breaking the rules- it might not be normal, but it's allowed
22:53:42 <hppavilion[1]> Saying ï doesn't make any sense in German, therefor the umlaut is only a quasi-diacritic
22:54:31 <hppavilion[1]> (Similarly, since m-tilde makes no sense, the tilde in n-tilde isn't a true diacritic either.)
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22:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> The symbols ə and ∃ are interesting, because (afaik) they're etymo... graphico...
22:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> OK, now I need to know the etymology of 'etymology', and it's because I ACTUALLY need it
22:59:11 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, etym- (true) -logos (word); etymology is the "true sense" of a word
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23:06:01 <myname> well, it should be etymography
23:06:19 <myname> since etym (with the m) is the truth part
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23:17:46 <HackEgo> welcome.fr//Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.)
23:17:54 <lambdabot> b_jonas said 6h 28m 43s ago: macron: try \=
23:18:23 <boily> b_jellonas. that was the thing that had to be tried.
23:24:46 <boily> `? deredundatiation # I wish I had coined that word.
23:24:47 <HackEgo> deredundatiation # I wish I had coined that word.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:25:03 * boily shiftily looks at HackEgo
23:27:11 <boily> `` rm wisdom/doshes
23:27:21 <HackEgo> The doshes are what the gostak distims.
23:27:26 <HackEgo> The doshes are what the gostak distims.
23:27:41 <boily> `complain pluralses!
23:27:42 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
23:28:19 <\oren\> "Jebediah Kerman questions Dunian Soveriegnty" "At least through war, there can be an end to this conflict."
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23:39:17 <Taneb> This might be the first year in a long time I'm going to miss Hexham's bonfire night :(
23:40:14 <Taneb> It's normally around my birthday
23:40:34 <Taneb> This year it's convenient for me to go home midweek over my birthday but I've got lectures on the Friday afternoon
23:40:40 <Taneb> So I miss the bonfire on Saturday
23:40:50 <Taneb> Unless I have a very train-y week
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23:55:24 <hppavilion[1]> What is the name of the equivalent of a right cone, but where a perpendicular intersection yields an ellipse rather than a circle?
23:56:10 <oerjan> . o O ( a wrong cone )
23:57:01 <oerjan> "Right Cone. A cone that has its apex aligned directly above the center of its base. The base need not be a circle."
23:57:14 <oerjan> so the answer appears to be, still a right cone.
23:57:42 <Zarutian> isnt a cone and extrution, along the third axis, of a two dimensional circle with an gradually increasing diameter?
23:58:10 <oerjan> usually. but this definition does not seem to require it.
23:58:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I guess I'm looking for the term 'elliptical cone' properly
23:58:54 <oerjan> cones can include pyramids in some meanings.
23:58:58 <izalove> $ cat /sys/class/power_supply/BAT1/capacity
23:59:02 <izalove> how bit a problem is that?
23:59:03 <Zarutian> so to get an ellipse you cut around 45° angle to that plane?
23:59:09 <izalove> my battery thinks it's charged at 103%
23:59:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If we allow a circle to be a polygon (which is nice sometimes), then yes, a cone is a type of a pyramid
23:59:34 <Zarutian> oerjan: so the base 2d form must not nescisarly be a circle or an ellipse?
23:59:42 <oerjan> Zarutian: no. you use an ellipse as base. afa hppavilion[1]'s question is concerned, anyway.
00:00:01 <oerjan> Zarutian: indeed. by some meanings.
00:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> (One could argue that a circle is \lim (x -> inf) ngon(n=x, r=c) for some constant c, I suppose)
00:00:42 <oerjan> there were important theorems in functional analysis that used cone in a general meaning. the base would frequently be infinite-dimensional...
00:00:55 <Zarutian> what are those functions called that produce an circle when plotted on polar cordnates where the radius is the magnitude and time is the angle?
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00:01:19 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If we do this, though, a cone is a pyramid, not vice versa.
00:01:20 <Zarutian> vigurföll they are called in Icelandic but I do not know their english name
00:02:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think it's about a coin toss whether you use "cone" or "pyramid" for the general concept.
00:03:36 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: be contrary and use "wedge" just to drive one between the use of cone and the use of pyramid
00:04:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: 'pyramid' has always included things other than regular tetrahedrons- you can have square-based pyramid, a pentagon-based pyramid, a hexagon-based pyramid, etc.
00:04:56 <hppavilion[1]> "Cone" has always meant a roundoid base. Therefor, a cone is a pyramid with a circloidal (aka elliptic) base
00:06:35 <oerjan> <izalove> my battery thinks it's charged at 103% <-- maybe it's in a manic phase hth
00:06:42 <Zarutian> I am wondering where on the gradient of number of angles of the base polygon the split is between cones and pyramids
00:06:57 <izalove> i'm worried that my laptop is going to explode
00:07:26 <oerjan> <moonheart08> ørjan, i set up a autoreplace. <-- what?
00:07:39 <Zarutian> izalove: that or a faulty coloumb counter in the battery
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00:10:08 <oerjan> Zarutian: what does "vigur" mean?
00:10:29 <oerjan> (wait, why don't i just look it up)
00:10:47 <Zarutian> oerjan: it is the kind of the resultant plot described but I do not recall its original meaning.
00:11:07 <oerjan> huh "vector" claims wiktionary
00:11:25 <Zarutian> eh, that is an incorrect usage I think.
00:11:35 <Zarutian> vector is just vektor in Icelandic
00:12:29 <Zarutian> one of the four if I recall correctly
00:13:25 <oerjan> if vigurföll means "spear fall", could be parabola?
00:14:06 <Zarutian> eh, isnt parabolas usually only ploted on cartesian coordnate system instead of the polar one mentioned?
00:14:30 <oerjan> well sure. i cannot recall your polar ones.
00:14:40 <Zarutian> vigurföll is compound word for vigur functions.
00:15:33 <Zarutian> I heard they were very popular for calculating the shape of camshafts
00:17:59 <oerjan> ok i'm not sure i even understand what you are asking.
00:18:28 <oerjan> what are the domains and ranges of these functions
00:19:24 <Zarutian> range of the functions input is from 0 to 2π, their results are the radius at that degree
00:20:36 <Zarutian> a function of this sort that always returns a constant produces the unit circle (if the constant is the unit that is)
00:21:16 <oerjan> well you said they were "circle"s. that term doesn't apply to camshafts afaics
00:21:50 <Zarutian> one function that always returns the same constant regardless to its input to be more spefic
00:22:31 <oerjan> fine, now give me a function of this type that isn't a constant.
00:23:51 <Zarutian> f(degree) := degree + 42; this should produce an spiral
00:24:31 <oerjan> ok that's not even a closed path. totally misunderstood the circle part then.
00:24:47 <Zarutian> (a clockwise/solarwise spiral at that)
00:25:31 <oerjan> anyway, it doesn't sound like what you're after is a name for the _functions_ at all, but rather for this way of plotting them.
00:25:38 <Zarutian> well, there are more complex functions that I do not recall at the moment that produce an closed loop
00:26:00 <oerjan> because it seems like you can use any positive real function on [0, 2pi]
00:26:12 <Zarutian> and those functions that produce closed loops in this way are called vigurföll in Icelandic
00:26:34 <oerjan> ok. that'd just be "periodic function" afaict.
00:27:16 <oerjan> i have this hunch this might be an engineering term more than a math term
00:27:17 <Zarutian> huh, so there isnt an particular name for them in English I see
00:27:31 <oerjan> (and i'm _so_ not an engineer.)
00:28:22 <Zarutian> it is more an enginnering term yes but it is also very math related as well
00:28:50 <boily> engineering is just approximathematics applied to the real world, like.
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00:32:10 <Zarutian> these functions also come into three phase electricity production
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00:36:30 <boily> `le/rn Zarutian/You can trust Zarutian. They are an engineer.
00:36:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'zarutian': You can trust Zarutian. They are an engineer.
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00:37:32 <Zarutian> boily: No, it is worse than that, I am an techincian that has to fix mistakes of engineers.
00:38:11 <boily> `le/rn Zarutian/You can trust Zarutian. They trust engineers.
00:38:14 <HackEgo> Relearned 'zarutian': You can trust Zarutian. They trust engineers.
00:40:13 <boily> don't worry, I studied engineering back in university. I just can't call myself an engineer because I don't pay my tithe to the mafia.
00:41:04 <boily> http://www.oiq.qc.ca/Pages/accueil.aspx ← bad people. meanies. bleh.
00:41:08 <oerjan> Zarutian: it must be true. you can trust wisdom, after all.
00:44:31 <Zarutian> boily: what kind? structural, mechanical, electrical, electronic, computing?
00:50:02 <boily> (not software engineering, mind you. proper computing, with burning and exploding electronics.)
00:50:15 <Zarutian> hmm... ISA, micro architecture and such?
00:53:01 <boily> µC, analog stuff, signal processing, machine learning, robotics, computer vision...
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00:54:02 <Zarutian> boily: µC standing for micro code?
00:55:24 <Zarutian> oh, so you are basically in the more theoritical and mathy part of electronics why I am in more of the practical hands on (such as the manifacturing of such)? ;-Þ
00:56:30 <Zarutian> what do you think of the FRAM based MCUs from Texas Instruments like MSP430FR and co?
00:56:40 <boily> that's about it. I suffered through many integrals and Laplace transforms to earn my degree.
00:57:36 <boily> good stuff, haven't used them.
00:57:46 * Zarutian hasnt still found an PCB layout autorouter that works reliably for his taste.
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01:07:43 -!- moonythedwarf has changed nick to moonheart08.
01:08:39 <boily> moonmoonmoonmoonmoonmoonmoonmoon ♪
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01:44:03 <HackEgo> estin didn't believe in automation.
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01:46:13 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/evilipse
01:47:05 * boily is beginning to understand the whole affair...
01:48:15 <boily> I put evilipse under "Things". if they dare manifest themselves to be rechaptered, then it shall be.
01:48:16 <oerjan> `culprits useless_file.txt
01:49:00 <boily> btw, the PDF is up to E.
01:50:55 <oerjan> boily: i think eir usual nick is "eclipse" or something like that, but e doesn't seem to have been staying after the event.
01:51:31 <oerjan> it was on the day when several people changed their nicks to evil.*
01:53:26 <boily> I didn't. I'm not evil.
01:54:38 <oerjan> `slwd boily//s/an /an, and not evil either /
01:54:40 <HackEgo> wisdom/boily//"Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian, and not evil either of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the
01:55:00 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:55:07 <oerjan> hmph there's not actually room.
01:55:35 <HackEgo> rust//Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
01:56:13 <HackEgo> amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole.
01:56:17 <HackEgo> things boily likes//Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở. Moreover, cubes.
01:56:42 <boily> `` sed -i 'sroterother' wisdom/boily
01:57:23 <oerjan> boily: i'd been assuming that was intentional
01:57:28 <HackEgo> amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole.
01:57:50 <oerjan> i guess there is no way to root a glob
01:57:54 <HackEgo> things boily likes//Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở. Moreover, cubes.
01:57:58 <HackEgo> boily//"Only sane man" boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
01:58:37 <boily> what'd'ya mean, to root a glob?
01:58:59 <oerjan> boily: `wisdom takes a file glob as argument iianm
01:59:26 <oerjan> and i don't know any way to match boily without matching everything that contains it
01:59:53 <HackEgo> f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooodl
01:59:59 <boily> oh. so I match everything that match me, without matching myself...
02:00:15 * boily is having an existential crisis
02:00:26 <oerjan> no, you also matched yourself, it just took a while
02:01:14 <HackEgo> Your renouned itymologist evil octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
02:02:06 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#renouned#reverberated#
02:02:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your reverberated itymologist evil octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
02:02:11 <HackEgo> You can trust Zarutian. They trust engineers.
02:04:33 <boily> the wisdoerjan reads like an ent-name.
02:04:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> why not `? twh <-- because i was testing if it was too long in that format
02:05:15 <Zarutian> `le/rn Zarutian/You can trust Zarutian, he fixes, as a techincian, banal mistakes of engineers. Also a provider of authentic fakes.
02:05:19 <HackEgo> Relearned 'zarutian': You can trust Zarutian, he fixes, as a techincian, banal mistakes of engineers. Also a provider of authentic fakes.
02:05:40 <oerjan> shachaf: darn, i thought i had successfully eviscerated the grammar
02:06:22 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:06:47 <oerjan> Zarutian seems to have the wisdom spirit.
02:07:13 <shachaf> oerjan: Really? I thought you'd be irritated that it's not in `learn style.
02:07:44 <oerjan> shachaf: it has the keyword tdh
02:08:26 <oerjan> Zarutian: in fact if i didn't know you'd added it, i would have guessed boily.
02:08:52 <oerjan> from the general styling.
02:11:19 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: what is the inspecified plurality version of it?
02:11:48 <HackEgo> Phở is a Vietnamese soup invented by noooodl to stress-test implementations of Unicode combining characters.
02:12:05 <hppavilion[1]> (Pronounced "fuh?", while Pho as in Vietnamese food is pronounced "foh")
02:12:14 <HackEgo> Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
02:12:35 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, in a conlang, is it better to consider 0 whatevers as plural or singular?
02:12:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hm bad choice, -o is the usual latin dual ending (in the two words that have it)
02:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I see what you... wait, did you do something there?
02:13:32 <Zarutian> phech, da accentials of that Phở are too uncomplex
02:13:47 <hppavilion[1]> (or dual or unspecified, if the language supports it?)
02:14:20 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
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02:14:44 <shachaf> `` dowg '#esoteric' | grep enchilada
02:14:46 <HackEgo> 2016-08-03 <oerjän> slwd #esoteric//s#whatever#enchilada#
02:15:10 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you should peruse the beautifully formatted and well-typeset PDF. it is good for your health and will cure your ailments!
02:15:11 <Zarutian> "The duality of pattern-forms is usefull in both recog and recall, though in the latter it might be shorn of most of its meta-stimuli-quila."
02:15:16 <shachaf> `slwd #esoteric//s#hyperenchilada#IRC channel#
02:15:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional IRC channel about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
02:15:51 <boily> please refrain from modifying entries between A and G. the paint is still fresh.
02:15:56 <oerjan> Zarutian: that's why i made `? brilliant hth
02:16:06 <HackEgo> B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h
02:16:13 <boily> I AIN'T LATEXING BRILLIANT! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
02:16:27 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:17:09 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, and villages in Norway. Taneb invented it.
02:17:21 <HackEgo> A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
02:17:28 <oerjan> <shachaf> `slwd #esoteric//s#hyperenchilada#IRC channel# <-- you are messing up the triangle and robert reference ;_;
02:17:30 <hppavilion[1]> I should start walking to have dinner with my r:[Pm], r:[PmPf], r:[PmSm2], and r:[PCf*]
02:17:39 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:17:44 <Zarutian> wait, I have seen a commercial for weetoflakes. Pretty good brand is the Möbiusien.
02:17:49 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional IRC channel about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
02:17:49 <hppavilion[1]> I also seem to have just invented a notation for family members with arbitrary specificity
02:17:52 <shachaf> Although references should be discouraged.
02:18:02 <oerjan> shachaf: you prefer pointers?
02:18:16 <hppavilion[1]> (Can't handle people with multiple links, though (e.g. double-cousins, to give a nonsquick example))
02:19:13 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: P means 'parent', C means 'Child', 'S' means 'Spouse', a number after S means remarriage, 'm' means 'male' applied to the previous link, 'f' means 'female' applied to the previous link
02:19:29 <shachaf> `learn A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
02:19:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'i': A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
02:19:50 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: what about concurrent Spouses?
02:19:50 <HackEgo> 2016-10-20 <shachäf> revert \ 2016-10-20 <shachäf> slwd #esoteric//s#hyperenchilada#IRC channel# \ 2016-10-18 <hppavilion[1̈]> slwd #esoteric//s/May contain crude drawings of nuts. // \ 2016-10-18 <hppavilion[1̈]> slwd #esoteric//s/$/ Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone./ \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <
02:19:59 <shachaf> oerjan: That's what I get for trusting `learn! tdnh
02:20:02 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: you know like those multi families.
02:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> I need to go now. I'll probably have a better system soon.
02:20:32 <shachaf> `le/rn a/A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
02:20:34 <HackEgo> Relearned 'a': A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
02:20:43 -!- Cale has joined.
02:20:54 <shachaf> Cale: whoa whoa whoa, nyc?
02:21:24 <Cale> I'm here until next Sunday
02:21:38 <shachaf> I'm here until further notice.
02:22:15 <shachaf> Cale: Hm, I'm a bit surprised you're in NYC now, actually.
02:22:19 <lambdabot> KJFK 200051Z 36010KT 10SM SCT065 SCT250 23/07 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP190 T02330072
02:22:26 <lambdabot> CYUL 200100Z 31003KT 15SM SKC 11/06 A3013 RMK SLP206
02:22:29 <Cale> shachaf: The people I work for are in NYC
02:22:34 <Cale> (Obsidian Systems)
02:22:45 -!- augur has joined.
02:22:54 <Cale> shachaf: So I come down from time to time
02:23:16 <shachaf> Oh, I mixed up the people you worked for with other people.
02:24:44 <Zarutian> `le/rn cemental The feeling of being cemented in place and it is making you mental. Can happen in ackward infrequent family gatherings such as Easter-Bum-Hunting where one cannot leave without breaking an reluctantly ontaken social responsibility.
02:24:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
02:25:04 <Zarutian> `le/rn cemental/ The feeling of being cemented in place and it is making you mental. Can happen in ackward infrequent family gatherings such as Easter-Bum-Hunting where one cannot leave without breaking an reluctantly ontaken social responsibility.
02:25:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'cemental': The feeling of being cemented in place and it is making you mental. Can happen in ackward infrequent family gatherings such as Easter-Bum-Hunting where one cannot leave without breaking an reluctantly ontaken social responsibility.
02:25:11 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:25:34 <shachaf> i'll let oerjan clean that one up
02:26:07 <shachaf> (whether by removing the leading space or deleting it entirely)
02:26:38 <Zarutian> oerjan: the spirit of wisdom further manifesting, neah?
02:26:43 * boily feels like a librarian trying to build a sandcastle while the microwave's beeping
02:27:04 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.
02:27:22 <boily> ↑ are the typoes voluntary?
02:27:40 <Zarutian> boily: not since the errorists won
02:28:08 <shachaf> `learn typoerjan is oerjan's clumsy twin.
02:28:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'typoerjan': typoerjan is oerjan's clumsy twin.
02:28:22 <oerjan> <Zarutian> oerjan: the spirit of wisdom further manifesting, neah? <-- you're slipping on the format tdnh
02:28:31 * boily mapoles Zarutian. 0.1 Sh.
02:29:01 <oerjan> `slwd cemental//s/ //;s/ an / a /
02:29:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/cemental//The feeling of being cemented in place and it is making you mental. Can happen in ackward infrequent family gatherings such as Easter-Bum-Hunting where one cannot leave without breaking a reluctantly ontaken social responsibility.
02:29:26 <oerjan> `slwd cemental//s/T/"Cemental" is t/
02:29:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/cemental//"Cemental" is the feeling of being cemented in place and it is making you mental. Can happen in ackward infrequent family gatherings such as Easter-Bum-Hunting where one cannot leave without breaking a reluctantly ontaken social responsibility.
02:30:33 <oerjan> `slwd cemental//s/ack/awk/
02:30:35 <HackEgo> wisdom/cemental//"Cemental" is the feeling of being cemented in place and it is making you mental. Can happen in awkward infrequent family gatherings such as Easter-Bum-Hunting where one cannot leave without breaking a reluctantly ontaken social responsibility.
02:32:21 <Zarutian> shachaf: a hooker upped to the gills on hateballs, lusto and Stamina™
02:33:00 <oerjan> * boily feels like a librarian trying to build a sandcastle while the <-- how many metaphors were you mixing there...
02:33:20 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e zzo3̈8 oerjän oerjän
02:33:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> `learn typoerjan is oerjan's clumsy twin. <-- i'm pretty sure i'm more sufficiently clumsy myself hth
02:34:49 <oerjan> argh that stupid irssi regression again
02:35:11 <HackEgo> 2016-05-08 <oerjän> ` le/rn "hfs//"`hfs` \ 2016-05-08 <oerjän> ` le/rn "hfs/"`hfs` \ 2016-05-08 <zzo3̈8> ` le/rn "hfs/`hfs`" # Maybe this way better? \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1
02:35:40 <HackEgo> You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.
02:36:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hfs: not found
02:36:52 <oerjan> boily: i believe it was generated from a program hth
02:37:06 <HackEgo> <oerjän> rm bin/hfs \ <moon_̈_> mkx bin/hfs//erro \'You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air aboe the dark stone floor is alive ith vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottemless pits mark the surface.\' erro "$1" erro \'stands below\' \ <moon_̈_> mkx bin/hfs//erro \'You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air a
02:37:26 <oerjan> boily: a rather stupid one, hm
02:38:39 <oerjan> boily: oh now i remembered. i used that method just to turn it into a wisdom before deleting the bin/
02:39:39 <Zarutian> is there an hg access portal to HackEgo permanent state?
02:39:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:39:55 <shachaf> Oh, that's much shorter than the `help output.
02:40:52 <oerjan> Zarutian: you can also run (readonly) hg commands inside HackEgo.
02:41:20 <Zarutian> oerjan: I am perhaps going to backup the wisdom
02:42:07 <boily> TIL (Today I LaTeX): apparently, nothing special has to be done for ŋ. it just works.
02:42:08 <oerjan> fizzie keeps backups at least.
02:42:25 <boily> there's the PDF. the magnificent PDF. the one and only.
02:43:09 <boily> enough typesetting for the night.
02:43:24 -!- boily has quit (Quit: AMORPHOUS CHICKEN).
02:50:10 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian).
02:52:21 <shachaf> oerjan: So what did I want this "derivative of a sphere" to be, anyway?
02:52:32 <shachaf> Do people define the "derivative of a surface"?
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02:53:26 <shachaf> So the derivative of a sphere assigns to each point on the sphere a plane.
02:53:47 <shachaf> Presumably, if you have the set of points {(x,y) | x <- R, let y = f(x)}, the derivative of that one-dimensional surface is the same thing as the derivative of the function.
02:53:51 <oerjan> well that's a tangent plane, i dunno if that's called the "derivative".
02:55:51 <shachaf> OK, well, if you have a 2-dimensional surface which is a subset of R^3 such that any dimension can be expressed as a function of the other two, you can take the derivative of that function.
02:56:07 <shachaf> And you end up with the same thing as the family of tangent planes.
02:57:11 <shachaf> So this generalizes derivatives : R^n -> R
02:57:58 <oerjan> i do not remember such a concept by the name of "derivative".
02:58:08 <shachaf> OK, well, call it something else.
02:58:28 <shachaf> Actually, does it have a name?
02:59:31 <oerjan> if it doesn't happen to be div then i don't remember that either.
02:59:37 <shachaf> Presumably something to dow ith tangent bundles?
03:00:44 <oerjan> i think i mentioned something asking someone who actually knows differential geometry.
03:01:49 <shachaf> Anyway, what I was wondering was about cases more general than R^n -> R
03:01:55 <shachaf> What if you have R^n -> R^m?
03:02:10 -!- oerjan has left.
03:02:49 <shachaf> I didn't mean to ask oerjan specifically there, just the channel.
03:03:24 <shachaf> I guess I should have taken it elsewhere, anyway.
03:11:44 <HackEgo> Your reverberated itymologist evil octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:12:03 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#evil#gracious#
03:12:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your reverberated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:13:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your reverberated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:13:18 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 6: unterminated `s' command
03:13:42 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your reverberated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:19:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:42:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
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04:01:25 <shachaf> I was wondering how you could tell it was green, but you probably used /msg.
04:01:41 <shachaf> Even since I started using /query HackEgo as a place to take important notes, I've stopped using /msg
04:01:52 <shachaf> Which is probably a bad plan for many reasons, all in all.
04:02:32 <oerjan> using /msg. or rather my HackEgo window.
04:02:36 <izalove> but will you accept the result of the election?
04:03:12 <shachaf> oerjan for king of norway twh
04:04:16 <oerjan> but harald seems like such a nice guy...
04:04:29 <oerjan> and he doesn't have any powers anyway.
04:04:49 <shachaf> octoberlord is already too much power
04:05:15 <shachaf> Are you going to give up your power come November?
04:05:30 <shachaf> Or will your last act as Octoberlord be to declare yourself Novemberlord?
04:05:48 <oerjan> i will _not_ declare myself novemberlord hth
04:06:09 <shachaf> will you relinquish your power
04:08:19 <shachaf> certainly you'll relish all the power you've mustered so far
04:08:27 <shachaf> if you don't, you'll find yourself playing catchup
04:09:25 <oerjan> i was going to swat you but the second line was overdoing it.
04:10:26 <shachaf> I thought people got swatted *for* overdoing it.
04:17:33 <shachaf> Is it too much to ask what the second derivative of f(x,y) = x^2 + y^2 - 1 is?
04:17:42 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
04:20:05 <oerjan> d/dt(2x dx/dt + 2y dy/dt) = 2 dx/dt + 2x d^2 x/dt^2 + 2 dy/dt + 2y d^2y/dt^2
04:23:03 <shachaf> I think the second derivative is a bilinear function at each point.
04:24:42 <shachaf> this isn't even differential geometry
04:24:50 <shachaf> But OK, I'll stop asking in here.
04:38:54 <\oren\> Well that was a nice bit of television making me proud to be Canadian!
04:40:03 <imode> can I request citizenship.
04:40:34 <\oren\> http://www.cic.gc.ca/English/
04:42:01 <imode> this is one of the times when I'd prefer to sit in an ivory tower.
04:46:42 <\oren\> as far as I can tell, it would be fairly easy for americans to move here for four years to wait out a trump presidency
04:47:46 <\oren\> Maybe our immigration bureau would even give americans refugee status
04:49:20 <imode> why only a trump presidency. they're both equally terrible, and clinton is an outright criminal.
04:49:27 <imode> no matter who wins, we lose.
04:49:38 <imode> I would rather vote for my dog.
04:50:09 <\oren\> well the refugee status maybe not, but we're very open to immigrants from all over
04:51:56 <\oren\> I doubt our government would consider the situation with clinton worthy of refugees right away, but depending on how she acts in the first year.
04:52:35 <\oren\> If she starts another war and drafts people, we have a long history of accepting draft dodgers
04:52:54 <imode> four years of nixon all over again.
04:53:12 <imode> only we knew she was a criminal beforehand. :P
04:54:04 <imode> good to know canada is willing to accept people. this has no chance of ending well.
04:55:18 <\oren\> I wonder, is it possible to impeach someone before they are inaugurated?
04:55:32 <imode> at this point, we have no say.
04:56:10 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
04:56:44 <\oren\> I miss the days when "Clinton" was "the prsident who got impeached for getting a blowjob from his intern"
04:58:12 <\oren\> that was funny, the current politics isnt even funny
04:58:41 <pikhq> imode: "Criminal" is a strong claim considering the FBI doesn't think they could get charges to stick.
04:58:45 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:58:53 <imode> pikhq: the FBI isn't even trying.
04:59:09 -!- Cale has joined.
04:59:14 <pikhq> *cough* Riiight. Maybe you should cut down on the r/the_donald.
04:59:24 <imode> why the hell do you assume I'm for trump.
04:59:30 <imode> I'm not even voting for them.
05:00:02 <imode> she has comitted crimes against this country and should be held responsible. do you really want immunity for somebody that powerful?
05:00:05 <pikhq> I'm not saying you're for Trump (you clearly stated you're not, after all!), just that you're using an r/the_donald talking point when you're claiming the FBI wasn't "even trying".
05:00:15 <imode> I don't even know what r/the_donald is.
05:00:23 <pikhq> (when all evidence suggests that's not the case)
05:00:56 <\oren\> pikhq: well, he might instead be paying attention to the House Oversight Committee
05:01:18 <pikhq> Not gonna defend her whole thing with the emails (because it *is* fundamentally undefensible), but no need to add pretend nonsense to the mix.
05:01:22 <imode> there is some serious political influence occurring in the back rooms in this country. always has been. it's just shocking that clinton's crimes have been this public and I haven't seen so much as a budge from anybody related to law enforcement.
05:01:47 <\oren\> They have raised some questions about the procedures used for interrogating witnesses and gathering evidence during the investigation of the email matter
05:01:58 <pikhq> imode: Do remember that the FBI is headed by a hard Republican who kinda has a big deal for impartiality.
05:02:23 <pikhq> Given that, I'm going to have strong suspicions about claims that the FBI didn't do a reasonable job in the investigation.
05:02:36 <\oren\> pikhq: Director comey is now under massive attack by republicans now, though
05:02:46 <imode> pikhq: do remember that the parties are not seperated. the illusion of the divide between democrats and republicans is something people need to see through.
05:02:50 <pikhq> Yes, because he acted against their interests.
05:03:24 <imode> democrat, republican, forget it. they're an american and they have comitted a crime.
05:03:26 <pikhq> And the GOP lynches those who go against the party organization as a policy.
05:04:14 <pikhq> That said, let's say hypothetically she's a criminal. K then, so's Trump it seems, so regardless we should expect to see an impeachment pretty quick.
05:04:16 <imode> so you're... blaming the GOP for not upholding the law over a candidate you clearly support? :\
05:04:24 <imode> what the hell kind of argument is that?
05:04:49 <pikhq> I'm saying the FBI investigation was done competently, and the GOP is taking Comey to task for it.
05:05:20 <\oren\> pikhq: well, in several ways it wasn't
05:05:20 <imode> define competently and "to task".
05:05:43 <pikhq> \oren\: News to me, but I'll be interested to hear claims on the matter.
05:06:04 <imode> if any of this is indefensible, then why do you think she should not go to jail for her crimes?
05:06:47 <\oren\> pikhq: have you reviewed the arguments made by the house republicans about how the email investigation was conducted?
05:06:49 <imode> I should stop asking that because either side is so invested in the pseudo-politics that it's turned into a prize fight.
05:07:06 <pikhq> Mostly because any arguments against Clinton, legitimate or otherwise, get really quickly drowned out for "Trump decided to take another step towards fascism in his rhetoric"
05:07:41 <pikhq> \oren\: No, because frankly they've called wolf so much my default is to ignore them. I take it you're saying there's something actually worth looking at here, though.
05:08:11 <imode> the hilarious amount of evidence is definitely worth looking at... that reddit fiasco was, too.
05:08:33 <imode> that had to be the funniest-not-funniest highlight of the whole year.
05:08:38 <\oren\> I recommend listening to the house oversight comittee hearings with director comey
05:09:01 <pikhq> K then, taking a note. Though I will note here that it'd take something *really* bad for me to not vote Clinton at this point (even if I did it with a great deal of depression about the matter)...
05:09:24 <pikhq> Simply because you've got to be spectacularly bad to be preferable in this clusterfuck of an election cycle.
05:09:27 <imode> would it take a genocide in clinton's name?
05:09:30 <pikhq> Erm, to not be preferable.
05:09:46 <imode> jesus fucking christ, I'm tired of hearing "well Clinton's the least worst so I'm going to vote for her". is that what we really believe in?
05:09:48 <pikhq> That would definitely do it, *but* would likely be further than necessary.
05:09:49 <imode> the lesser of two evils?
05:10:09 <imode> are you really going to mark down her name on a ballot because you believe you need to vote for SOMEBODY this election cycle?
05:10:23 <pikhq> imode: I'm not saying it's good, because it isn't. But our election system is designed so that if you don't do that, you get the greater of two evils instead.
05:10:43 <imode> pikhq: they're both terrible! why do you think that either one is an option?! don't fucking vote!
05:10:50 <pikhq> And the greater of two evils appears to be cribbing from a "how to be fascist" handbook.
05:11:12 <pikhq> imode: Because, no matter how bad Clinton is, after 4 or 8 years of Clinton, the US will likely still exist in a recognizable form.
05:11:42 <imode> I'm shocked at how many people don't understand that we're not electing a king or queen.
05:11:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
05:11:50 <\oren\> unless she enforces a no fly zone against russian jets
05:12:01 <\oren\> in which case it won't
05:12:10 <imode> trump cannot single-handedly destroy this country. neither can clinton. this is why we have different branches. this is why we have checks and balances.
05:12:20 <imode> this is why vetos exist. this is why impeachment exists.
05:12:34 <imode> you're going to mark a ballot because you're in an us-versus-them mentality.
05:12:36 <imode> the entire. country. is.
05:12:41 <pikhq> Trump's first act in office would be to purge the military ranks of generals that would go against him. He said as much.
05:13:08 <imode> at a time when people have stopped voting for what we believe in and just for whoever's either more popular or the least horrible of the two, it's emberassing for me to see people enabling this.
05:13:12 <imode> you are. an enabler.
05:13:29 <pikhq> And you pretend that by failing to vote you have any say in the system.
05:13:31 <\oren\> pikhq: that's stalin, not fascists
05:13:34 <imode> you say you don't truly believe in clinton or trump but you're going to enable either one to win instead of backing away like a sane person.
05:14:16 <pikhq> One person will win regardless of whether or not I vote.
05:14:27 <pikhq> By voting, I make one person's victory marginally more likely than another.
05:14:35 <pikhq> I have a preference for on person over another.
05:14:39 <pikhq> Ergo, I will vote.
05:14:45 <\oren\> vote for the green party
05:14:59 <imode> you'll vote for the downfall of this country.
05:15:02 <pikhq> But I think Jill Stein would be worse as President than Clinton.
05:15:15 <imode> no matter who you vote for.
05:15:16 <pikhq> (though undeniably better than Trump)
05:15:30 <pikhq> (sigh, I wish we had preference voting)
05:15:36 <imode> I almost long for a dictatorship.
05:15:38 <pikhq> imode: That's not how it works, though.
05:16:03 <pikhq> They don't look at voter turnouts to see whether or not a Presidency is legitimate.
05:16:05 <imode> pikhq: "that's not how it works." clinton will destroy this country. trump will destroy this country. lose-lose.
05:16:15 <pikhq> They look at voter turnouts to see whose interests are worth playing to.
05:16:26 <pikhq> You can't honestly think Clinton will destroy this country.
05:16:37 <imode> I can see she is as incompetent as Trump.
05:16:44 <shachaf> pikhq: they are literally equal hth
05:16:48 <shachaf> have you ever seen them in the same room together
05:17:07 <pikhq> ... Have you paid even a modicum of attention to their policies, actions, or outcomes of their decisionmaking?
05:17:08 <imode> both are back-stabbing pieces of shit who have an agenda far and away from the average american's.
05:17:30 <imode> trump's been acting publically, clinton's been acting privately.
05:17:58 <imode> the fact that you can't see that makes me incredibly sad, but not surprised.
05:18:01 <pikhq> Is Clinton basically the Democratic Nixon? *Basically, yes*. Nixon was nowhere near as much of a trainwreck as you seem to act like, though.
05:18:31 <pikhq> Paranoid, corrupt bastard, but certainly nothing like "destroy this country" bad.
05:18:51 <imode> clinton is like a democratic bush.
05:18:55 <pikhq> Meanwhile, we have a candidate who suggests we could default on our debt to get a "better deal".
05:19:03 <imode> if you really want to go there.
05:19:05 <pikhq> (this is called "making the USD worthless)
05:19:19 <imode> trump is like reagan walked into a reality show circa the 90s.
05:19:21 <pikhq> I also think Bush is more maligned than is really justified, so.
05:19:54 <imode> I really do long for a dictatorship. that way we could dispell with the illusion of choice and stop fighting eachother in pissing-matches on the internet.
05:20:00 <\oren\> "Hola Amigo" - Bush, to the president of Italy.
05:20:04 <imode> and in real life. and act like adults, again.
05:20:19 <imode> china has this down. I guess.
05:23:11 <imode> you know, we could always vote vermin supreme.
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07:11:14 * hppavilion[1] pets the kitty. It deals 10 damage (to hppavilion[1], not the kitty)
07:12:19 <imode> roll for cuteness.
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07:14:34 <lambdabot> unexpected '.': expecting digit, operator or end of input
07:14:47 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1]: 1 / 7 => 1/7 => 0.1429
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07:15:34 <imode> we're getting this thing to calculate pi.
07:15:48 <hppavilion[1]> imode: The problem is that the d has highest precedence
07:16:14 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1]: 5 / 3 => 5/3 => 1.6667
07:16:25 <lambdabot> unexpected '^': expecting digit, operator or end of input
07:17:06 <hppavilion[1]> imode: I don't think lambdy can do it. So we will make a better KdN roller
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07:18:02 <hppavilion[1]> Aww, I wanted to roll a d20 then roll a d(whatever that number was)
07:18:10 <imode> @roll d3+8/60+29/3600+44/21600
07:18:11 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: roll :: Integer -> t
07:18:11 <lambdabot> imode: 2 + 8 / 60 + 29 / 3600 + 44 / 21600 => 23149/10800 => 2.1434
07:18:30 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Integer -> t’
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07:25:33 <lambdabot> unexpected end of input: expecting digit, operator or end of input: no rolls in expression
07:30:39 <hppavilion[1]> SEVEN shift keys; normal shifts <SHIFT>, <TOP>, and <FRONT>, ultra-mega-awesome shifts <CONTROL>, <SUPER>, <META>, and <HYPER>
07:31:34 <hppavilion[1]> (I'd add <ALT> in too, and maybe add <RIGHT SHIFT>, <RIGHT CONTROL>, and <RIGHT ALT> as potentially-different keys)
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07:32:07 <imode> yeah iirc they functioned as macro keys.
07:32:14 <imode> no wonder emacs is fucked up.
07:33:10 <imode> c'mon baby, all I need is a 22.
07:33:38 <imode> hppavilion[1]: I'm content with a hexadecimal keypad. or any generic 4x4 (or maybe 6x8 keypad!)
07:35:22 <imode> yeah but I'm an idiot and figure a finnicky rng will end up more frequently on the midpoint than on the maximum.
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07:37:14 <hppavilion[1]> imode: What makes you think the lambdabot prng is finnicky?
07:37:51 <imode> dunno. from what I saw it tended towards the middle for dice rolls. I don't know what's actually going on, so. :P
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07:39:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, has anybody ever made a piano-type instrument with a more keyboard-like interface?)
07:40:03 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrogPad
07:40:09 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard
07:40:20 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. instead of having additional keys for sharp, you just hit <SHARP>)
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07:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> imode: I heard there was a secret chord / that David played and it pleaERROR: INVALID_COMMAND_BYTE // ATTEMPTING TO REPAIR // REPAIR FAILED. INITIATE SYSTEM WIPE.
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07:49:47 <\oren\> Chorded keyboards were first demonstrated by douglas englebart
07:50:05 <\oren\> who was almost certainly a time traveller
07:51:11 <\oren\> since he also invented a like 20 innovations decades ahead of time
07:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> He sang Halleluja... Halleluhja... OK, henceforth it's some combination of H, an 'a' or 'o', an 'e', 'i', or 'u', some 'l's, and ~'ja'
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08:10:34 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Actually, I don't do HackEgo-related backups, just the wiki. Maybe I should.
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08:15:50 <izalove> lambdabot: Is hg the future?
08:16:03 <fungot> izalove: fnord is *new*! :) http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ fnord/ circle_of_commas load
08:16:59 <shachaf> the context is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.version-control/nh4fITFlEMk
08:17:13 <myname> if there weren't süaces in the url, that would have looked like a normal person
08:20:13 * hppavilion[1] played https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4k036R3wQE with the kitty in the room
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08:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> (This kitty- named Pete- is not to be confused with the Kitteh, who is named Zeus)
08:43:08 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... rewrite http://xkcd.com/287/ to conform with s/restaurant/restraining/
09:02:26 <myname> it should be pretty easy with 54 vowels!
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09:27:01 <b_jonas> \oren\: a time traveller so ahead of his time that people don't understand when he tries to explain about future inventions, like Da Vinci, except he's also a good enough engineer to actually build working models of some of them? That's great!
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09:52:18 <b_jonas> ok, so I have a stupid question
09:55:18 <b_jonas> In unicode, how come that the partial derivative symbol "∂" and the nabla (del) symbol "∇" are classified as not letters, despite that they behave as letters in formulas and originate from modified/reused letters in metal type, just like a lot of phonetic symbols like "ʌɜ" which are classified as letters
09:55:45 <b_jonas> The aren't large operators like the big sigma and big pi and integral symbols.
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10:13:23 <fizzie> shachaf: I've heard it is. We... might have something experimental using that narrow clone thing, already.
10:14:00 <shachaf> Should I use hg instead of git?
10:14:35 <fizzie> Personally I'm not switching quite yet.
10:14:41 <fizzie> But apparently it's Better for Enterprise(tm).
10:17:55 <olsner> i.e. someone who really likes hg has made it to a position of power?
10:18:36 <shachaf> There are probably legitimate reasons to prefer it?
10:18:45 <shachaf> I talked about them in here a few months ago.
10:18:49 <shachaf> Or at least potential reasons.
10:19:37 <fizzie> From what I've heard, it boils down to having APIs that aren't just "on-disk repository format".
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10:39:10 <Taneb> My semigroup theory lecturer uses a postfix convention for functions and it spins my head a bit
10:40:35 <Taneb> And does function composition, correspondingly, backwards to what I'm used to
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11:41:18 <HackEgo> russell's teapot//Russell's Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
11:43:22 <b_jonas> near Mars? I think it's farther, in the asteroid belt.
11:43:56 <Taneb> b_jonas, I think that counts as thereabouts
11:44:37 <b_jonas> Maybe the poem rhythm works better this way or something
11:45:34 <Hoolootwo> he suggested originally that it's between the earth and mars, which is similarly quite far away
11:45:57 <Taneb> And also counts as thereabouts
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12:51:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:YSomebody]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50021 * YSomebody * (+103) Created page with "==Python-Befunge Polyglot== v = "Hello, world!" [] #>a"!dlrow ,olleH"v #@,<,,,,,,,,,,,,,< print(v)"
12:53:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:YSomebody]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50022&oldid=50021 * YSomebody * (+1)
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13:14:13 <b_jonas> Hoolootwo: maybe Russell suggested that, but that's because they didn't know enough about orbital mechanics yet. A teapot in the asteroid belt is more likely.
13:15:00 <b_jonas> (admittedly a teapot orbitting Earth would be even more likely, but much less surprising)
13:24:47 <b_jonas> Ok wait, let me get this straight
13:29:19 <b_jonas> So sed allows you to use (almost) any character to delimit regular expressions in a regex address or the s/// replacement command, despite that's it's clearly got the original syntax for both of those from ed.
13:29:58 <myname> you could almost think sed is the s of ed
13:31:00 <b_jonas> And this is probably an old feature of sed, not some modern invention, because it's present in gnu sed, openbsd sed, and even in very ancient freebsd according to https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=sed&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+1.0-RELEASE&arch=default&format=html
13:31:23 <b_jonas> Ed doesn't have this: you can only use slashes, both in regex addresses and substitutions there
13:32:12 <b_jonas> I found arbitrary delimiters natural, because learning perl 5.005 was among the very early things I did when I met unix, and perl has had this feature for ages, taken from sed.
13:32:56 <b_jonas> But here's the strange part. Vim doesn't allow arbitrary delimiters for the s/// command. Not even like most other punctuations characters, or say those punctuation characters that don't conflict with other parts of its command syntax.
13:33:32 <b_jonas> It just insists on slashes, and says fuck you leaning toothpick syndrome vim wizards can learn to write \/\/\/\/ and don't get confused of it among it,
13:33:58 <b_jonas> because if they would, they wouldn't use vim regexen which has like so many backslash escapes they had to add second level escapse after the backslash when they ran out of letters.
13:34:40 <b_jonas> So they now have like \a to \z, \A to \Z, \_a to \_z, \_A to \_Z, \_% for every puntuation character, then \@a to \@z, \@A to \@Z, \@% for every punctutation character instead of %
13:35:19 <b_jonas> nah, you're stuck with slashes as delimiters.
13:35:48 <b_jonas> I know ex is derived from ed, not sed, but they could still steal the good features of sed later
13:38:03 <b_jonas> Arbitrary delimiters after s isn't even hard to implement, and I know this because I implemented it once in javascript in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=700954
13:39:27 <b_jonas> (Obviously ruby has taken the idea too from perl.)
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15:48:39 <jeffl35> \a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\a\\\\\\\
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15:53:27 <nortti> https://github.com/rhysd/8cc.vim https://github.com/shinh/elvm https://github.com/shinh/bflisp
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16:20:25 <\oren\> I prefer diff and patch
16:20:50 <b_jonas> um... diff and patch for what? version control?
16:29:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50023&oldid=49144 * Actuallyallama * (+273)
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17:30:23 <int-e> has https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvMZ66TUsAITQ4O.jpg been brought up?
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17:44:39 <imode> so. nintendo... switch.
17:47:18 <imode> what I got from the 'reveal': repairability is zero. suffers from "just another android tablet" syndrome. they're moving away from PPC into ARM...
17:47:44 <imode> and nintendo is still a terrible company as of 2016-10-20.
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18:07:59 <izalove> about that string library thing i wrote
18:08:31 <izalove> i need some benchmark to show people that it's fast
18:08:58 <izalove> but apparently converting 1 million integers to strings is a convoluted example
18:09:19 <izalove> i mean a contrived example
18:09:23 <izalove> "that's a contrived example whose result wouldn't be compelling even if it wasn't"
18:12:16 <alercah> did you implement KMP string search
18:13:24 <izalove> not yet but the point of my library is to optimize small strings
18:14:10 <izalove> so idk if kmp would make much sense
18:23:29 <fizzie> A web browser would be a non-contrived example.
18:24:52 <fizzie> Or more generally, any code that performs a function, and wasn't written with your library in mind. Say a XML parser.
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19:26:19 <hppavilion[1]> When you prove something in a fuzzy logic, do you end with Q.E.F.D (for "quod erat fere demonstrandum"- "Which is approximately what had to be demonstrated")?
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19:58:11 <hppavilion[1]> What's the most efficient practical way to determine the index of a prime number in |P?
19:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> The way I'm using (check every number below it for primality, increment the count), it turns out, is a bit inefficient for numbers in the millions
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20:24:12 <Hoolootwo> one way to do it would be a big LUT, if that is possibly big enough
20:24:30 <Hoolootwo> if not, you could do a smaller LUT that gets you roughly to the right place, then you calculate the rest
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20:32:28 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Use a big prime sieve?
20:32:44 <FreeFull> All the way up to the largest prime you care about
20:42:43 <Taneb> Today I made a program that uses evolutionary computation to find integrals
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21:26:59 <hppavilion[1]> So dammit, the colon in IPA isn't actually a :colon
21:27:15 <HackEgo> [U+02D0 MODIFIER LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON]
21:27:15 <HackEgo> [U+02D0 MODIFIER LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON]
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21:51:25 <fizzie> shachaf: A man was talking about TRAINS at work today.
21:51:53 <shachaf> it's spelled TRAAAAAINS hth
21:52:14 <shachaf> please see the bot in #trains
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23:09:27 <boily> who's or what's a Jander?
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23:32:21 <izalove> i went in a pawn shop today and they have a pokemon blue
23:32:32 <izalove> used, but with its original box
23:35:22 <pikhq> ... That feels a bit overcharging.
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23:39:34 <Zarutian> boily: been thinking about how interrupts are implemented in ISAs. I think I understand how they work in microcoded ISAs but I am a bit at loss how they would work in hardwired ISAs. (Well besides those that are basically FSAs)
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00:04:05 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 53m 30s ago: Actually, I don't do HackEgo-related backups, just the wiki. Maybe I should.
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00:20:21 <boily> Zarutian: Zarutellon. interrupts are slightly black magic for me, as far as I can recall >_>'...
00:21:29 <Zarutian> boily: hmm... how much do you know of ISAs?
00:23:05 <Zarutian> boily: well on canonical dual stack machines they are simple. Basically they are unanticipated call to the InteruptServiceRoutine.
00:23:26 * boily throws a smoke grenade
00:25:21 <Zarutian> I take that you know the basic Fetch-Execute cycle all CPUs and MCU cpu-like cores implement
00:27:51 <boily> `` mv wisdom/magnu{,s}
00:28:37 <Zarutian> so the cpu usually fetches an instruction from what ever address the Instruction Pointer register tells.
00:30:32 <Zarutian> however when an interupt happens, some sort of signal (a steady logical HIgh or LoToHi transition) is fed into the contoler of the cpu, yes?
00:33:15 <HackEgo> 2016-10-20 <boil̈y> ` mv wisdom/magnu{,s} \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-04-17 <b_jonäs> learn Magnus is the ghost the Trunchbull killed.
00:33:20 <HackEgo> 2016-10-20 <boil̈y> ` mv wisdom/magnu{,s}
00:33:38 <oerjan> not the magnus i expected.
00:33:55 <Zarutian> oerjan: coi pa do .i pau xu do cu baupli la lojban ku .i
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00:35:09 <Zarutian> oerjan: men du forstuer hvad jeg har sagt på lojban, nei?
00:35:53 <boily> Zarutian: *munch* *munch* *munch*
00:36:25 <boily> (eating, still following what's happening, even if parts are in Norsk or something that looks like it.)
00:37:27 <Zarutian> boily: well the last was in an baster coboil of Norks and Dansk.
00:42:34 <oerjan> "forstuer" is probably the wrong term here hth
00:43:13 <Zarutian> so, the cpu pushes the current Instruction Pointer register contents onto the (return)stack, puts the address of the start of the ISR into Instruction Pointer register, disables interrupts and fetches the next instruction as per above.
00:43:21 <oerjan> (it means "sprain" hth)
00:43:43 <Zarutian> oerjan: could have gone with Svensk fattar instead probably
00:44:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure you meant "forstår"
00:45:08 <Zarutian> hence I sometimes get deep oiled kittens instead of chickens.
00:45:24 <oerjan> google translate's lojban support is unfortunately rather nonexistent, so no deal.
00:45:46 <Zarutian> well when I am trying to speak Dansk that is
00:46:21 <Zarutian> oerjan: humm... hvernig höndlar þýðingarvél Google íslenskt ritmál þá?
00:46:56 <boily> . o O ( mais qu'est-ce qu'un þýðingarvél??? )
00:47:23 <oerjan> incidentally "fatter" is a norwegian word, which means the same as swedish "fattar", except when it means Daddy instead.
00:47:48 <oerjan> (it's not the most common word for Daddy, though.)
00:49:10 <Zarutian> there are few design choices of where the ISR address is gotten from. In some systems it is hardcoded. In others it is in an memory addressable register and in yet other you get vectored interrupts where the ISR address is choicen from an small array of register based on the type of the interrupt
00:49:14 <oerjan> Zarutian: better than lojban. also i can guess a little icelandic.
00:49:57 <HackEgo> Thanks, Zarutian. Tharutian.
00:51:08 <Zarutian> boily: another example of an long Icelandic word is alþjóðafarverkamannastarfsgreinasambandið (and I bet oerjan cant guess this one)
00:51:37 <oerjan> boily: þýðingarvél seems to mean translator. þýðing has an obvious norwegian nynorsk cognate tyding (and a slightly less obvious bokmål betydning), both meaning meaning. not sure of the vél part.
00:51:55 <boily> mine eyes. they are not in a happy place.
00:52:15 * boily comforts himself with sane French spelling
00:52:16 <oerjan> it seems to mean machine according to google.
00:52:43 <oerjan> boily: i think icelandic spelling is relatively sane.
00:52:52 <Zarutian> oerjan: indeed, it was adopted to mean that but also meant certain kind of magic|spell
00:53:34 <oerjan> i cannot guess all of that long word but sambandet is a norwegian word.
00:54:18 <oerjan> it might be a funny way of saying Internet, come to think of it.
00:54:57 <boily> `` sed -i 'streatréat' wisdom/montreal
00:55:24 <oerjan> looking at the mess google creates of it...
00:55:40 <oerjan> i'm changing my guess to ILO, the International Labor Organization.
00:55:41 <Zarutian> oerjan: nope the Internet is Alnetið, rather sane one that.
00:56:37 * Zarutian breaks it up for oerjan: alþjóða-far-verkamanna-starfsgreina-sambandið
00:57:58 <oerjan> i was getting that far
00:58:45 <oerjan> still the same guess, unless there's a different international worker's union
00:59:29 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workers%27_Association looks promising
01:00:38 <Zarutian> oerjan: well its an international umbrella organization for guild-like organizations of travelling workers.
01:00:54 <boily> "just" is #esoteric's version of TV Tropes' "egregious"...
01:01:37 <oerjan> Zarutian: doesn't sound quite the same. i guess there are too many labor organizations
01:01:56 <oerjan> boily: i haven't noticed "egregious"
01:02:22 <Zarutian> boily: well an roadtrip faviourite is always: Hellisheiðarvegavinnuverkamannkaffiskúrslykklakippunaglhaus
01:02:48 <boily> oerjan: it was egregiouser in the past, but they removed many of them.
01:02:58 <boily> (it's still the canonical egregious word.)
01:03:22 * boily mapoles spaces into the Zarutianwords
01:03:45 <boily> I'm guessing "Hell" is not Hell, but just pale or white.
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01:04:29 <Zarutian> in Icelandic we have four declanations instead of the measly two of English
01:05:18 <Zarutian> Hellisheiði is a named georgraphy in Iceland
01:05:45 <oerjan> Zarutian: do you mean cases
01:05:56 <oerjan> declinations count a different thing
01:06:33 <Zarutian> my english vocabulary regarding grammar isnt much
01:07:17 <oerjan> well english probably doesn't have declinations since its noun grammar is too regular. not sure about icelandic.
01:07:41 <oerjan> (basically a declination is a class of nouns that all inflect in a similar way)
01:08:06 <Zarutian> declanations is where nouns get diffrent endings depending on stuff like the 'sex' of the word and such?
01:08:28 <oerjan> well those might count, however it's not the same.
01:08:54 <oerjan> e.g. in Latin some of the declinations contain words of different genders.
01:09:08 <Zarutian> that is what I am talking about
01:09:53 <oerjan> no i mean, Julius and verbum are latin words both of the 2nd declination; the first is masculine and the second is neuter.
01:10:40 <oerjan> and the most common adjective inflection uses 1st declination for feminine and 2nd for masculine and neuter.
01:10:44 <Zarutian> barn-ið, bók-in, hestur-inn. (Neuter, feminine, masculine, the ending is equiv to danish -en or english the)
01:11:04 <oerjan> Zarutian: danish as -et for neuter
01:11:51 <oerjan> declination also refers to the entire inflection pattern of a noun though.
01:12:01 <Zarutian> dont force me to remember the rules of what words are neuter and combined (both mascuiline and feminine)
01:12:28 <oerjan> well norwegian has 3 genders. barnet, boka, hesten. same as icelandic there.
01:13:24 <boily> un évier, une cuiller. perfectly logical.
01:14:18 <boily> (mind you, it's /evje/ and /kɥijɛʁ/.)
01:14:42 <pikhq> English has the *remnants* of a noun declination system, at least. I think purely in the pronouns, though.
01:18:39 <HackEgo> Your reverberated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:18:46 <boily> oh, it has become green now.
01:19:37 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAA MUST. SKIP. POLITICS. IN. LOGS.
01:19:50 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, is it a good politics?
01:20:42 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#oerjan#oerjan#
01:20:44 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your reverberated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:21:16 <Zarutian> or just the usual clownfi(gh|t)ting?
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01:21:47 * boily *THWACKS* shachaf. "hey, I'm trying to format that!"
01:22:17 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:22:20 <boily> no reverting, oerjan is rainboerjaned.
01:23:09 <HackEgo> cat: bin/rainboerjan: No such file or directory
01:25:54 <boily> okay, I'm done with 'O'. you can tweak oerjan to your heart's content!
01:26:23 <oerjan> this wisdom has some race conditions.
01:26:51 <Zarutian> oerjan: like at red severty or?
01:27:23 <oerjan> i have no idea what that means.
01:27:58 <oerjan> afaik it appears to mix two unrelated concepts.
01:31:40 <Zarutian> it was an attempt to reference http://everything2.com/user/The+Custodian/writeups/Race+Condition+Red
01:41:18 <Zarutian> oerjan: and also: oysters are filter feeders.
01:43:32 <Zarutian> feeeel the zeeen frustration yet?
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02:04:32 <boily> mumumumumumumumu ♪
02:08:47 <lambdabot> I feel like a wet parking meter on Darvon!
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02:40:10 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
02:40:20 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthulhu.
02:40:50 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-05-31 <fizzïe> ` sed -i -e \'s/\\([a-z]\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)*[a-z]\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)*[a-z]\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)*\\)\\([a-z]\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)* \\)/\\1u\\5/g\' -e \'s/louur/lour/\' -e \'s/\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)*\\(\\x03[0-9][0-9]\\)/\\2/g\' wisdom/colo
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02:53:17 <zzo38> Might any additional node types be useful for FreeUHS? If any are added, then hint files that use them won't be compatible with OpenUHS (unless someone adds those features into OpenUHS). One kind of node type I thought might be useful to add is password type; there are several other nodes locked by passwords and you can access them if you know the password.
02:53:58 <Zarutian> zzo38: UHS stands for what in this context?
02:54:10 <zzo38> Universal Hint System
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02:54:34 <zzo38> FreeUHS and OpenUHS are free implementations of that.
02:55:08 <Zarutian> and what are Universal Hint Systems?
02:55:56 <Zarutian> oh, these are hints for stuff like MIT annual riddle competition?
02:56:19 <zzo38> Wikipedia has some information. You can also see http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/freeuhs.ui/ for FreeUHS.
02:56:31 <zzo38> They are files that have menu of hints generally for computer games
02:56:44 <oerjan> <shachaf> it's spelled TRAAAAAINS hth <-- as they ZOOOOM by?
02:56:53 <zzo38> As far as I know, there aren't any for MIT annual riddle competition, but with FreeUHS you can write such a file if you want to do!
02:57:16 <zzo38> (InvisiClues is also a bit similar system to UHS)
02:57:45 <shachaf> oerjan: you've welcome to find out in the other channel hth
02:57:58 <oerjan> . o O ( zero knowledge hint protocol )
02:58:24 <shachaf> Is there a JavaScript implementation of UHS?
02:58:34 <shachaf> No one uses programs that don't run in web browsers anymore.
02:58:34 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes; FreeUHS is a JavaScript implementation.
02:59:16 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> who's or what's a Jander? <-- a robot from asimov's robot series iirc (and i looked it up because of the wisdom)
02:59:19 <Zarutian> But I thought it was for hints of already solved riddle contests. My confusion.
02:59:54 <HackEgo> Jander was murdered, or deactivated permanently, depending on which side you ask.
03:00:17 <oerjan> it's one of b_jonas's ones
03:00:18 <Zarutian> I was wondering why I found the name somewhat familiar
03:00:52 <zzo38> What I intend to add to FreeUHS later is one file for making printouts of UHS, with optional support for invisible ink or scratch-off layers.
03:03:02 <zzo38> You can also tell me any other feature requests or bug reports or whatever else too.
03:03:10 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1gux6jeTR8
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03:20:11 <zzo38> What is the proper way for a HTTP client to check if it is redirecting from WAN to LAN?
03:20:44 <zzo38> I want to make the FreeUHS catalog program to refuse to redirect in such a case
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03:27:22 <Zarutian> zzo38: what do you mean by 'redirecting from WAN to LAN'? the webserver returned an status code that the resource had moved and specifies an LAN hosted server?
03:28:28 <zzo38> But only if the original connection isn't LAN
03:29:41 <shachaf> "We call a special Frobenius monoid that also obeys this extra law extra-special."
03:31:25 <Zarutian> zzo38: well such knowledge requires knowing the IP address of the web server being redirected to. And if it falls into the usual LAN (or local) only IP addresses
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04:47:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/brainfcuk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50024&oldid=46992 * Elronnd * (-287)
04:58:29 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T00-c_6yvMk
05:00:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/brainfcuk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50025&oldid=50024 * Elronnd * (+279)
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05:05:26 <izalove> i've got a hundred million reasons to walk away, but baby i just need one good one to stay
05:10:45 <oerjan> in freefall, clippy needs to work on his metaphors
05:15:15 <oerjan> in girl genius, it appears that wearing purple does not prevent you from being a redshirt.
05:16:28 <oerjan> well actually the whole comic seems purple today.
05:17:49 <\oren\> clearly they need to make a depurplizer
05:17:51 <FreeFull> No guarantees of survival unless you're part of the core cast
05:18:08 <shachaf> There is one in Zork: Grand Inquisitor
05:18:31 <shachaf> http://www.gameboomers.com/wtcheats/pcZz/ZGIms.htm
05:18:55 <shachaf> You can do all sorts of great things with that spell.
05:18:56 <oerjan> also, the foglios are not very serious about conlanging.
05:19:11 <shachaf> For example, there's a place labelled "infinite corridor" in purple.
05:19:28 <shachaf> You can turn it into "corridor" or "infinite" or nothing.
05:20:43 <FreeFull> Why does it even make an invisible fence visible
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05:32:14 <\oren\> oerjan: I'm not sure whether conlanging is needed for Girl Genius. It takes place mostly in alternate-germany anyway
05:33:06 <\oren\> and partly in other parts of alternate-europe
05:35:51 <oerjan> \oren\: you didn't look at today's comic, did you?
05:36:55 <FreeFull> Well, right now they are in Paris
05:36:56 <\oren\> Oh. the spider rider language. '
05:37:48 <FreeFull> I assume sparks just naturally learn languages really easily or something =P
05:37:54 <FreeFull> Or for some reason all of europa uses one language
05:38:25 <\oren\> Most of the text that isn't english that I've seen has been german
05:38:35 <oerjan> FreeFull: i think it's canonical that the parts they usually spend time in use german and romanian
05:38:37 <\oren\> I mean on signs and suck
05:39:14 <\oren\> The wulfenbach empire enforces the "Pax Transylvania"
05:39:24 <oerjan> FreeFull: the story starts in _transylvania_ polygnostic university, after all
05:39:41 <\oren\> So I think they actually originate there
05:40:24 <\oren\> (even if their capital is a giant airship)
05:40:35 <oerjan> i noticed they've not been terribly serious about using french writing in paris either.
05:42:22 <FreeFull> Yeah, it's mostly been in English
05:42:31 <FreeFull> I assume for the benefit of the readership, or out of laziness
05:51:17 <HackEgo> Your reverberated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
05:51:24 <shachaf> That wisdom entry is too long but I don't know what to delete.
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05:51:47 <shachaf> What happens nowadays when you try to remember a word?
05:52:17 <hppavilion[1]> The only way to make a proper horror game, I believe, is to revert to tbrpg-mode
05:53:13 <hppavilion[1]> Fancy graphics will subvert the point, because you'll be too busy saying 'damn, that monster looks good' to say "AAAAAAAAAGHHH"
05:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Contingency: This is mostly just for Lovecraftian horror)
05:54:35 <imode> text will dominate all!
05:54:51 <imode> bow to the power of your own imaginations!
05:55:42 <oerjan> shachaf: i get pissed off and write "amortized" instead out of spite hth
05:56:21 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your reverberated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
05:57:20 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
05:57:53 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
06:11:26 <izalove> is there a point where a hash table is expected to give memory back to the system?
06:12:07 <izalove> if i delete 90% of the entries, should the table resize itself to a smaller size?
06:15:25 <pikhq> Depends on the hash table, TBH.
06:16:30 <pikhq> It's nicer to do that, but can be more complicated and expensive.
06:17:46 * izalove checks what sparsehash does
06:18:51 <izalove> it needs a way to detect if i'm on a delete streak or if i just reserved some extra space...
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06:21:25 <pikhq> The obvious way to avoid really, really bad grow/resize patterns is to only grow by factors of 2 and shrink by factors of 1/4th (or similar)...
06:22:20 <izalove> yeah but maybe i just created a large table for future needs
06:30:13 <imode> while(<condition>) { <code>; break; } is a really good replacement for if.
06:31:12 <imode> wonder how the compiler would treat that.
06:31:21 <pikhq> Brainfucking much?
06:31:36 <imode> I know, I'll examine it!
06:35:26 <imode> the while(<condition>) { <code>; break; } version ends... up with less code.
06:37:23 <imode> weird, when left to the default flags, the if version ends up with less code.. there's two nops in the while(<condition> version.
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06:45:09 <hppavilion[1]> imode: How could it possibly end up with less code?
06:45:47 <hppavilion[1]> Unless, like, it has some subtly different semantics that are only true when the value is quantum during bitdecay or something
06:46:26 <imode> hppavilion[1]: fun2 has a nopw at the end.
06:47:06 <imode> http://pastebin.com/LPejPR7U
06:47:35 <imode> give me a moment and I'll grab you the source.
06:47:50 <imode> http://pastebin.com/Atx4WEGB
06:53:37 <hppavilion[1]> I can really get behind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vbaL6qt6_c
06:57:59 <izalove> https://www.reddit.com/r/DonaldandHobbes/
06:59:45 <imode> I love powers of two. my language now has 32 commands after deciding to be base-agnostic.
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07:01:58 <lifthrasiir> imode: 33 is also a powe of two, = 2^5.044394119358453[digits omitted]. hth
07:02:40 <alercah> `le/rn Civilization/ It is rumoured that Taneb invented civilization, but this is false. It was actually invented by Sid Meier, who also invented cities.
07:02:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'civilization': It is rumoured that Taneb invented civilization, but this is false. It was actually invented by Sid Meier, who also invented cities.
07:02:55 <imode> lifthrasiir: okay, _natural_ powers of two. :P
07:03:21 <lifthrasiir> 1 might or might not be a natural power of two :D
07:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> ? `le/rn Sid Meier/Sid Meier was invented by Taneb_Omega, who was invented by Taneb_(Omega-1), who was invented by Taneb_(Omega-2) who was invented by ... who was invented by Taneb_2, who was invented by Taneb_1, who was invented by Taneb_0, aka Taneb.
07:16:13 <HackEgo> It is rumoured that Taneb invented civilization, but this is false. It was actually invented by Sid Meier, who also invented cities.
07:16:43 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: so Taneb transitively invented civilization?
07:16:46 <alercah> Sid Meier is not a recursive Taneb-vention!
07:17:04 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: We've established that invention is not transitive. Apparently.
07:17:22 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Of course not; he's an invention from the bottom of an infinite tower of Tanebs
07:19:42 <hppavilion[1]> imode: 33 is also a natural log of 2; 2**ln(155.15026817143126[digits omitted]). hth.
07:23:08 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: I've chosen to differentiate myself from that style
07:23:45 <hppavilion[1]> ('integral' as in integer-related, not as in squiggly)
07:24:02 <lifthrasiir> ah, I thought it is related to the relationship between infinite integral and logarithm
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07:25:46 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: And really, how natural is one's life? It cannot be broken down into a mere boolean.
07:26:01 <imode> none of this is making any rational sense.
07:26:48 * lifthrasiir has thought of punning with p-adic numbers
07:26:55 * imode wonders what a base-agnostic "bit shift" would look like.. perhaps a digit shift?
07:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Only by rejecting the orders of our cardinals can we fulfill are dual nature and achieve transcendence
07:27:08 <imode> so 123 << 2 would end up as 300...
07:27:17 <shachaf> that's not how ordinals work and it's overdoing it anyway
07:27:18 <lifthrasiir> (and realized that pedantic does not match against p-adic)
07:27:42 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
07:27:54 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
07:28:26 <shachaf> you always overdo it, that's the thing
07:28:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/civilization// It is rumoured that Taneb invented civilization, but this is false. It was actually invented by Sid Meier, who also invented cities.
07:29:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/civilization//cat: wisdom/civilization: No such file or directory
07:30:32 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I have created the ultimate new-agey-sounding joke about something completely different
07:31:21 <hppavilion[1]> Acknowledge me as your goddess (which would be weird, because /me is male (p < 0.05)... but eh, that's the kind of power you get when you're a goddess)
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07:32:10 <izalove> i wrote a function that frees some resource
07:32:24 <izalove> s* s_free(s*); <- prototype looks like this
07:33:00 <izalove> i also have a function that copies stuff from one resource to another and allocates space for it if needed
07:33:10 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: With the amount of pun I bestowed on you, we can never be even.
07:33:11 <izalove> s* s_dup(s* dest, const s* src);
07:33:39 <izalove> which means you can do something like this s_dup(s_free(h->values[pos]), value);
07:34:25 <izalove> it frees up the space used by its argument
07:34:42 <shachaf> But then its argument is still valid?
07:35:03 <izalove> that argument is more like a char**
07:35:55 <izalove> s is a union that contains a pointer to heap allocated memory
07:36:53 <shachaf> OK, so that's similar to free(*h->values[pos]); *h->values[pos] = alloc(); copy(*h->values[pos], value);?
07:37:41 <izalove> but i'm doing it like dup(free(oldvalue), newvalue)
07:39:05 <izalove> basically all my functions return their first argument to allow that kind of chaining
07:39:16 <shachaf> I should have said copy(*h->values[pos], *value);
07:39:52 * izalove didn't notice the missing *
07:40:16 <shachaf> This seems like a slightly odd thing to do.
07:42:11 <izalove> because free is supposed to be void?
07:42:33 <izalove> one can also use function(something)->field = value
07:45:34 <shachaf> Well, free puts its argument in an odd semi-valid state.
07:46:08 <izalove> oh no it's completely valid
07:46:44 <izalove> https://github.com/izabera/s
07:47:54 <shachaf> Oh, you're just inconsistent within the file.
07:48:13 <shachaf> I thought it was some odd scheme where things outside the function arguments are spaced differently from function arguments.
07:48:38 <hppavilion[1]> I just found out what a polecat (hov http://xkcd.com/1032/) is
07:48:59 <izalove> shachaf: actually that's it
07:49:33 <shachaf> But then you write "s* s_cat(s* a"
07:50:04 <izalove> i haven't really decided where the * should go
07:50:35 <shachaf> the right answer is "t *x" hth
07:50:48 <shachaf> (But as long as you're consistent I don't really care.)
07:51:28 <shachaf> Anyway, I'm still not sure whether this is a good API.
07:52:47 <shachaf> Why do you restrict capacity to powers of 2?
07:53:32 <izalove> and because i'm a computer person so powers of 2 are the way to go
07:53:38 <shachaf> Do you think the same use cases require 2^54-byte strings and also compact 15-byte strings?
07:53:42 <imode> the latter reason is valid.
07:54:09 <shachaf> anyway have you read e.g. https://github.com/facebook/folly/blob/master/folly/docs/FBVector.md
07:54:43 <shachaf> "it can be mathematically proven that a growth factor of 2 is rigorously the worst possible because it never allows the vector to reuse any of its previously-allocated memory"
07:55:18 * shachaf shudders at "if (...) ... else { ... }"
07:55:25 <shachaf> I shouldn't complain about your formatting.
07:55:29 <lifthrasiir> izalove: oh, I've read it up and it's a bit clever
07:55:39 <shachaf> But you should really just run it through clang-format or something.
07:55:54 <lifthrasiir> I'm aware of SSO-23 and thought how can it be possible to have 16-byte-long structure without a capacity
07:56:48 <izalove> shachaf: thanks for the link
07:57:04 <shachaf> Anyway none of this is answering your question.
07:57:13 <izalove> lifthrasiir: sso23 is 24 bytes
07:58:38 <izalove> yeah, functions that return their first argument for chaining purposes
07:59:37 <shachaf> I think for free in particular it's pretty odd.
08:00:08 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Are you just never going to acknowledge my pun?
08:00:47 <HackEgo> Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
08:01:12 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: sorry, was confused on what parts are intended to be pun
08:02:11 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: went to far with the pun or it's out of scrollback?
08:02:13 <imode> don't worry, I'm sure it was punintentional.
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08:02:55 <lifthrasiir> izalove: I wonder if that style of API will survive future expansion of convenience APIs, like sprintf
08:03:48 <izalove> sprintf typically returns an int but s knows its size so it could just return its first arg
08:03:56 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: It was "Only by rejecting the orders of our cardinals can we fulfill are dual nature and achieve transcendence"
08:04:21 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: yeah I think that pun is being uncountable
08:05:07 <izalove> yeah sds has something like that
08:05:23 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: pun in non-native language is daunting, please bear with me
08:05:53 <izalove> https://github.com/antirez/sds#formatting-strings
08:06:07 <lifthrasiir> I have no problem in _reading_ pun... except that I might not understand that immediately :p
08:07:01 <HackEgo> Fibonacci numbers? ¯\(°_o)/¯
08:07:13 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/: Is a directory
08:07:22 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/: No such file or directory
08:07:49 <lifthrasiir> izalove: I personally hope to see an equivalent to std::string_view in C
08:08:47 <izalove> who needs a size when you've got a null terminator
08:08:52 <shachaf> Even in C++11 one is tempted to use char * instead of string_view
08:08:58 <shachaf> And do all sorts of arithmetic.
08:09:13 <shachaf> Fortunately you just have to be smart and never get it wrong, so it works fine.
08:10:53 <lifthrasiir> izalove: so we've got a stupidity like strtok, haven't we?
08:11:25 <izalove> i have yet to write it for s
08:13:13 <lifthrasiir> izalove: on the capacity: I think it is clever, but doubling every time is not optimal for larger strings
08:13:34 <lifthrasiir> I've once had 64KB cut in my C string library; sds seems to have 1MB cut
08:13:57 <lifthrasiir> beyond that point the amount of additional allocation is limited
08:14:39 <lifthrasiir> e.g. with 1MB cut, appending two bytes to a string with len=32767 cap=32768 will yield one with len=32769 cap=65536
08:15:07 <lifthrasiir> but doing the same to a string with len=2^24-1 cap=2^24 will yield one with len=2^24+1 cap=2^24+2^20
08:15:50 <lifthrasiir> allocation request basically strains the allocator, so excess allocation should be limited to some threshold
08:17:01 <lifthrasiir> shameless plug: https://gist.github.com/lifthrasiir/4422136
08:17:18 <lifthrasiir> not exactly a string, though (I forgot that :p)
08:18:27 <izalove> my gut feeling is that large strings are more likely to be appended large amounts of data
08:18:56 <izalove> so once you're past 100mb it makes little sense to grow by 1mb at a time
08:19:23 <lifthrasiir> izalove: any incremental building can result in such a behavior
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08:19:59 <izalove> yeah but what if you resize by decreasing increments
08:20:09 <izalove> like, a 16byte string gets resized by 2x
08:20:16 <izalove> 32 byte gets resized by 1.9x
08:20:27 <izalove> ... 100 mb gets resized by 1.5x
08:20:51 <izalove> something that decreases logarithmically
08:22:25 <lifthrasiir> yeah, but copying 32 byte string is quick; copying 100 MB string is not
08:23:30 <izalove> that doesn't seem to be a point against what i said
08:25:01 <lifthrasiir> that might somehow work, but I guess 1.5x is still a bit large
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08:29:47 <zzo38> I have some other idea of effects of Magic: the Gathering cards. One such idea is: Put a +0/+1 counter on target creature. That creature fights itself.
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10:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> I have just learned about "SMASH FACE ON KEYBOARD; POST RESULTS".
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10:27:56 <zzo38> Some computer games ask for you to type in your name in the high scores. I generally prefer to enter the current date instead; all of them are my score anyways.
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11:15:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: isn't that a tradition from the arcade machines, from when it was strange if only one person played the machine
11:16:29 <b_jonas> also, that reminds me to http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20060213
11:16:46 <b_jonas> (ctrl+alt+del comic, Ethan proposes to Lilah
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12:02:11 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 2m 54s ago: <boily> who's or what's a Jander? <-- a robot from asimov's robot series iirc (and i looked it up because of the wisdom)
12:02:28 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan. tdh. t!
12:08:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 211100Z 01019KT 8SM -RA BKN005 OVC009 10/09 A2981 RMK SF7SF1 SLP098
12:09:00 <boily> today's weather is simple. it's going to be that, all the way at least for the next 24 hours. no variation at all whatsoever. woohoo...
12:11:25 <boily> http://meteo.gc.ca/forecast/hourly/qc-147_metric_f.html and http://imgur.com/a/uZNQc for posterity.
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12:40:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[THRAT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50026&oldid=46255 * YSomebody * (+0)
12:41:10 <izalove> http://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/77952/previous-company-name-is-isis-how-to-list-on-cv
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13:51:22 <ais523> @tell boily in Asimov's robot series, only two humanoid robots were ever built; Jander was one of them, but is only seen in the past tense because he already was "dead" (i.e. permanently incapable of functioning) at the point at which he's introduced to the story
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14:25:03 <b_jonas> ais523: at least in the age of the Cities. later in the Empire the robots build a few more, and a few of them are significant characters.
14:25:37 <ais523> b_jonas: IIRC that's intentionally ambiguous in the books
14:26:18 <b_jonas> ais523: that depends on which characters you're talking about
14:28:38 <b_jonas> ais523: SPOILER Stephen Byerley is definitely ambiguous, nobody will be able to tell whether he was a robot; Dors Venabili was definitely a robot, it's slightly ambiguous in Prelude to Foundation but clear in Forward the Foundation;
14:29:13 <ais523> oh, I thought even Forward was intentionally ambiguous, but less so
14:29:32 <ais523> Byerley is clearly ambiguous (although I'm also unclear if that story is in the same continuity as the others)
14:30:26 <b_jonas> in any case, even if Forward is ambiguous, there's the Foundation's Triumph trilogy which makes it clear that Dors is a robot and IIRC also introduces at least one more humanoid robots.
14:31:13 <b_jonas> In addition, according to Foundation and Earth, Daneel has had more than one humanoid body, so I wonder if he should be counted with multiplicity.
14:32:17 <ais523> technically speaking we only have his word for that, but there's not much reason to think he was lying
14:32:55 <b_jonas> ais523: Byerley is definitely in the same continuity as the robot novels, at least as far as there's such a continuity: Byerley (from "Evidence") re-appears in "The Evitable Conflict",
14:33:23 <ais523> b_jonas: I was more questioning if that was in the same continuity as, say, The Caves of Steel
14:33:39 <ais523> I'm not sure if the Evidence continuity even features Susan Calvin (it might; I can't remember)
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14:35:39 <fizzie> The Evidence story has Susan Calvin in it.
14:36:05 <b_jonas> I think they're sort of both the same continuity, the one where the spacers first wage war against Earth, as told in, uh which story is that about the war when Earth is defeated, anyway, that happens much after The Evitable Conflict and I think before Caves of Steel?
14:36:14 <b_jonas> I'm not sure of the chronology here, I'd have to look it up
14:37:14 <fizzie> She provides the last bit about Byerley becoming the World Coordinator, foreshadowing The Evitable Conflict.
14:37:18 <fizzie> Also he's totes a robot.
14:37:55 <b_jonas> In fact, it's The Bicentennial Man, which btw has another humanoid robot, which doesn't really seem to be integrated to the continuity with the spacers.
14:39:03 <b_jonas> It's actually connected story-wise, because for a while Andrew works on the moon base where they're researching faster-than-light travel, and the story of that research is told in two or three of the other robot stories. It just doesn't feel like the same world to me for some reason.
14:40:02 <b_jonas> And the short story version of The Bicentennial Man is anthologized in The Complete Robot, so it's definitely one of those robot stories.
14:40:03 <fizzie> It doesn't feel like the same world because all the other books are so strict about US Robotics robots never being allowed to move around freely on Earth, but Andrew does that and nobody as much as raises an eyebrow.
14:40:22 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "all the other books".
14:40:23 <ais523> I'm pretty sure The Bicentennial Man is a different continuity from The Caves of Steel
14:40:33 <fizzie> But that's a plot point in many of the books.
14:40:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think that's chronology difference. The Bicentennial Man happens later.
14:40:41 <ais523> even if it's a very similar universe
14:41:05 <ais523> fwiw, although some of the original robot stories (I, Robot and the like) are clearly in the same continuity
14:41:11 <ais523> I think that many of them are negative-continuity one-offs
14:41:15 <b_jonas> ok wait, which one is the story about the war when the spacers attack Earth and blockade it?
14:41:21 <ais523> (i.e. "the story is set in an established universe but makes no changes to it")
14:41:33 <b_jonas> and when does that happen in relation to the Baley novels?
14:41:41 <ais523> b_jonas: not sure; those events are mentioned as being in the past in The Caves of Steel
14:41:45 <fizzie> b_jonas: I remember all the details except the name.
14:41:46 <ais523> but they might have happened more than once
14:42:07 <ais523> the book gives the impression that they were a semi-regular occurence
14:42:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: I *don't* remember the details, I never liked that story
14:43:00 <b_jonas> It's clear that Robots and Empire happens after the three Baley novels
14:43:05 <fizzie> I keep getting some of the details mixed up with that other story with Altmayer.
14:43:11 <fizzie> In a Good Cause, I mean.
14:43:45 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's "Mother Earth".
14:44:19 <b_jonas> Mother Earth => http://www.asimovreviews.net/Stories/Story179.html
14:44:28 <b_jonas> that definitely asys it's before The Caves of Steel
14:44:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that one connected to the earlier robot stories (of The Complete Robot) somehow?
14:46:54 <fizzie> It doesn't talk very much about robots, so not sure.
14:47:10 <fizzie> There's at least one story that refers back to the Machines in The Evitable Conflict.
14:48:03 <fizzie> And that would be That Thou Art Mindful of Him, included in The Bicentennial Man.
14:48:23 <ais523> for the Machines to be in the same continuity as the Cities and Empire, they'd have to have been fairly flawed, IMO
14:48:25 <fizzie> That's very much out of the continuity that leads to the spacers and all that, I think.
14:49:02 <ais523> given that a major plot point is that they took certain actions specifically to prevent the situation that exists at the start of the City books happening
14:49:29 <ais523> assuming I'm thinking of the right story
14:49:40 <fizzie> That Thou Art Mindful of Him is the one where they stop using human-level robots, turn to small robotic animals to something something ecology (that don't have the Three Laws), but it's all a plot by one of the robots to make sure they will be the superior beings later.
14:50:00 <b_jonas> Ok wait, are the spacers mentioned before Mother Earth, chronologically, like in any of the Complete Robot stories?
14:51:00 <ais523> well they clearly don't exist during the stories that talk about the invention of FTL travel
14:51:05 <fizzie> ais523: That Thou Art Mindful of Him have one version of how we get rid of the Machines, but like I said, I don't think that's on the way to Cities and Empire.
14:51:10 <ais523> and IIRC those are fairly late in the Robot continuity
14:51:34 <fizzie> "Those Machines limited their action of their own accord. Once they had solved the ecological problems that had threatened human society, they phased themselves out. Their own continued existence would, they reasoned, have placed them in the role of a crutch to mankind and, since they felt this would harm human beings, they condemned themselves by the First Law."
14:52:03 <ais523> (fwiw, I suspect that the invention-of-FTL stories /are/ in the Cities and Empire continuity; the FTL gets considerably improved in the meantime but still seems to have the same limitations)
14:52:16 <b_jonas> One thing that ties stuff together is that Susan Calvin is mentioned as a legend in the Foundation, but you can still have a legend or robotics without all the early robot stories actually happening.
14:52:40 <ais523> Calvin is also mentioned in the Cities stories
14:53:07 <ais523> the Spacers are surprised that she came from Earth, even though nothing else would make logical sense
14:53:16 <ais523> (she's dead at that point but still a respected historical figure, and not someone who's had a chance to fade into myth yet)
14:54:23 <b_jonas> I think she's already dead at the time of Mother Earth
14:55:33 <b_jonas> Ok, from this so far it seems like there's two continuities:
14:56:17 <b_jonas> One with all the early robot stories, Susan Calvin, Byerley, the machines, and it ends with Andrew's death.
14:59:22 <b_jonas> And a second with the spacers, that starts with Mother Earth and the spacers having left Earth, separating from humans, Fastolfe builds Daneel and Jander, Sarton uses Daneel and Baley to forward his political goals against Amadiro,
15:00:35 <b_jonas> as told in the Baley trilogy and Robots and Empire, and then the humans leave Earth and Earth becomes radioactive from Amadiro's machinations,
15:03:34 <fizzie> b_jonas: Andrew works on the moon base on prosthetics, and nowhere does it say they're working on FTL; also, Hyper Base (where they did research FTL in the robot stories) is somewhere in the asteroid belt.
15:03:52 <b_jonas> (which is Asimov's greatest retcon, erasing the nuclear wars from ''Pebble in the sky'': there's not many people who dare to remove entire nuclear wars from history, apart from the guys in Eternity and George Lucas)
15:04:36 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not sure that Pebble in the Sky explains how the world became radioactive
15:05:06 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't it Pebble in the Sky that says it was nuclear wars? maybe it was some other story, Foundation and Earth or something
15:05:13 <b_jonas> I don't remember how that works
15:05:21 <ais523> also I thought that the canon explanation for the radioactivity was that Giskard caused it to happen, and ended up killing himself in the process due to a First Law dilemma
15:05:24 <b_jonas> I like the Robots and Empire version
15:06:12 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but Giskard was just choosing to stop Daneel from stopping Amadiro, and it was Amadiro who made the machine to make Earth radioactive, but Amadiro did it for evil reasons and lied about it
15:06:47 <ais523> so it was more of a cooperative thing, both Amadiro and Giskard needed to make the decision for it to happen
15:07:06 <b_jonas> or something like that, I'll have to reread Robots and Empire
15:07:29 <b_jonas> I think Amadiro also had a lackey with him but I don't remember who, and possibly a different spelling of his name
15:08:12 <ais523> Vasilia, perhaps? she's female but I know you have pronoun troubles so I'm not relying on the pronouns
15:09:05 <b_jonas> you mean the other character is Vasilia, reused from Robots of Dawn?
15:09:26 <b_jonas> let me check what http://asimovreviews.net/Books/Book328.html says
15:09:47 <b_jonas> I just thought it was a newly introdced character
15:09:50 <ais523> Amadiro orchestrated most of the events of Robots of Dawn, but it was Vasilia who was responsible for actually implementing many of them
15:11:20 <b_jonas> "Amadiro orchestrated most of the events of Robots of Dawn" -- ah yes, no wonder Daneel remembers his friendship with Elijah as good times later in the Foundation. That was back when Daneel wasn't yet orchestrating all the events of human history. Oh to be young and careless and not have the troubles of the whole galaxy on your back!
15:11:48 <b_jonas> The end of Robots and Empire is when he grows up.
15:12:38 <ais523> yes, Daneel had an incredibly low amount of orchestration in Robots of Dawn
15:12:48 <ais523> most of the events were orchestrated by Amadiro, and most of the rest by Baley
15:13:08 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, Giskard took a large part
15:13:15 <b_jonas> in Robots of Dawn especially
15:13:27 <ais523> I'd forgotten that because he was so subtle about it
15:13:46 <ais523> you can effectively treat Giskard and Baley as a single entity there, I guess
15:13:53 <int-e> GG seriously needs red shirts so we know who's going to die ;-)
15:14:00 <b_jonas> and Giskard dies in R and E and explicitly leaves the world in Daneel's care
15:16:10 <ais523> huh, your review site seemed to like The End of Eternity
15:16:23 <ais523> I actually didn't really like that one, I didn't find the setting that compelling
15:16:45 <ais523> (apparently it's part of continuity but given that it manages to retcon all its own events internally, it doesn't really matter whether it is or not)
15:16:54 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not MY review site. it's Jenkins' Guide.
15:17:26 <ais523> well, it's the one you linked to
15:17:29 <ais523> I didn't mean to imply you wrote it
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15:19:08 <ais523> what sort of bot uses the web interface?
15:19:21 <ais523> maybe it isn't a bot at all
15:20:29 <ais523> oh gah, this is Hofstader's reverse-CAPTCHA situation all over again, isn't it?
15:20:47 <ais523> (when you're unsure whether something is a computer pretending to be a human, or a human pretending to be a computer pretending to be a human)
15:21:03 <ais523> it's actually a very difficult task
15:21:36 <b_jonas> Which web interface is that? Let me check how the cloaks work again
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15:22:59 <ais523> web_jonas: you seem to be identically cloaked to freebot, with the exception of having a different IP
15:23:10 <ais523> (the username appears to be the IP in hexadecimal)
15:23:32 <web_jonas> This one is qwebirc, the one that has the worse interface and requires for a captcha and is ran by freenode themselves
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15:24:54 <wob_jonas> And this one is kiwiirc, which has better interface, doesn't ask for a captcha, and can connect to any irc server, even one it doesn't know, if you just give it the hostname of the server.
15:25:35 <b_jonas> Ok, so the freenode qwebirc has a cloak with "gateway/web/freenode/", a generic name as if freenode was trying very hard to suggest it's THE only web interface,
15:26:04 <b_jonas> and the kiwi one is cloaked "gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com" which clearly has kiwiirc.com in its name
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15:26:36 <fizzie> If it's THE only web interface ran by freenode themselves, having "gateway/web/freenode" as the name doesn't sound too generic.
15:28:53 <ais523> huh, freebot appears to be connecting from a hosting company in Croatia
15:28:59 <ais523> which increases the chance that it actually is a bot
15:30:15 <ais523> I got the impression that it was a VPS or web hosting company
15:30:17 <ais523> rather than a consumer ISP
15:30:30 <ais523> which implies that either a bouncer's being used or the connection comes from a server
15:31:03 <ais523> additionally, I'm not aware of any Croatians in the channel, but using a hosting company from another country is not that rare
15:32:03 <b_jonas> there are VPSes in croatia?
15:33:15 <ais523> why wouldn't there be?
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15:40:17 <b_jonas> Windows these days lets you type (almost) any unicode character from the keyboard by holding alt and entering its code in decimal on the numpad prefixed by a zero on the numpad.
15:40:43 <b_jonas> But this doesn't help me, because I only remember the character codes in hexadecimal, and don't want to do a radix conversion in my head.
15:41:19 <b_jonas> So I usually start Word, enter the character code in hexadecimal, press alt-x, which enters the character there, then copy-paste the character.
15:41:34 <b_jonas> Is there a saner way to type arbitrary unicode characters on Windows?
15:42:52 <ais523> I don't know of one, but I'm not an expert on Windows
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15:46:11 <Jafet> autohotkey script?
15:46:38 <ais523> using autohotkey to fix flaws in Windows is like using m4 to fix flaws in C
15:47:03 <Jafet> ephemerally pragmatic?
15:47:33 <b_jonas> I don't know what autohotkey is. Before you tell me what it is, I have one utterly biased question.
15:47:36 <Jafet> I suppose you could emulate compose sequences too
15:48:52 <b_jonas> Is it one of those things that react to my keypresses with a delay, like the explorer file delete dialog that uses the trash only if you aren't pressing shift at the time when the confirmation dialog box pops up, regardless of whether you pressed delete or shift-delete to delete the file? Like, if I use autohotkey to type characters, will my character appear out of sequence wrt other characters?
15:49:18 <b_jonas> If it's a delayed thing then I don't want to know what it is. If it's not delayed but something like a proper input method, then you may tell me what it is.
15:50:19 <b_jonas> this looks promising => http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/08/17/three-ways-to-enter-unicode-characters-in-windows/
15:51:34 <b_jonas> it says there's a magic registry key you can set and then windows has a builtin way. It doesn't mention which version of windows it applies to, probably because it's one of these blogs that never expects you to read anything but the latest entry.
15:52:00 <b_jonas> It's from 2008 and has a screenshot with... um, is that windows xp skin?
15:53:02 <b_jonas> web searched the registry key name mentioned there, leads here => http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_programs/how-to-insert-unicode-characters-like-arrows-using/349b7749-f04b-4ac9-b4b4-ec8461c6f4e5
15:55:34 <b_jonas> http://superuser.com/q/47420/267786 too
16:01:26 <HackEgo> molum//molum is the inverse function of ybden.
16:05:10 <HackEgo> bin/ploki \ bin/udcli \ bin/google \ bin/raw-url \ bin/noooooooodl: \ bin/lastwisdoms \ bin/bienvenue \ bin/learn \ bin/sled \ bin/learn_append2 \ bin/emmental \ bin/roll \ bin/sprunge \ bin/js \ bin/mk \ bin/jousturl \ bin/quine \ bin/rot256 \ bin/randbin \ bin/en2sv \ bin/dis86 \ bin/etymology \ bin/bienvenido \ bin/hi \ bin/mislearn \ bin/slashl
16:05:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"tmflry/$topic" \ echo "Was lied to about '$topic': $1"
16:05:49 <ais523> ah, hmm, // is used as an s/// terminator when deleting something
16:05:55 <ais523> in addition to the mkx syntax
16:06:06 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
16:06:07 <b_jonas> ais523: and the defined-or operator.
16:06:17 <ais523> ybden: the learndb is mostly full of jokes
16:06:18 <b_jonas> and integer division in some languages
16:06:23 <ais523> we have a second learndb intended for facts
16:06:30 <ais523> but it's controlled by `mislearn, `tmflry, etc., as a joke
16:07:04 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
16:07:20 <HackEgo> @ \ brainfuck \ c++ \ C++ \ cat \ esolang \ esolangs \ #esoteric \ fs \ hth \ mapole \ `mislearn \ mycology \ ntitai \ random number \ tdnh \ the meaning of life \ tomfoolery \ wiki \ wisdom
16:07:31 <HackEgo> tomfoolery is always factually inaccurate. always.
16:07:45 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? it started with, like, an ø?
16:08:10 <ais523> just to add confusion, the databases draw from each other (in at least one direction) when they don't have anything else to say
16:08:14 <HackEgo> A lot more young people have gone off to fight in this war than I would have, at that age.
16:08:30 <ais523> so it's hard to know whether the result is true or not
16:08:36 <ybden> `< ybden> tomfoolery?` was directed at the fact wisdomdb dir
16:08:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <: not found
16:08:55 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-05-12 <tsweẗt> le/rn war/A lot more young people have gone off to fight in this war than I would have, at that age.
16:09:16 <HackEgo> date > share/conscripts; culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs
16:09:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ???: not found
16:09:19 <ybden> `cat bin/tmflry/'random number'
16:09:20 <HackEgo> cat: bin/tmflry/'random number': No such file or directory
16:09:24 <ybden> `` cat bin/tmflry/'random number'
16:09:25 <HackEgo> cat: bin/tmflry/random number: No such file or directory
16:09:40 <shachaf> Hmm, list is now diaeresised.
16:10:14 <ais523> shachaf: it's to prevent accidental pngs I think
16:10:26 <ais523> although part of the fun of the old list was preventing it pinging you
16:10:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lïst: not found
16:10:43 <ais523> it was rare for anyone to trigger it anyway
16:10:52 <ais523> because if you did, you'd be pinged every time anyone else did
16:11:05 <ais523> I'm reminded a bit of mutual assured destruction but it isn't really
16:11:15 <ais523> it's more like a ponzi scheme in reverse
16:11:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: trap: not found
16:11:33 <ais523> like, when you join, everyone else in the scheme pays you some money
16:11:41 <ais523> you get a fortune so long as you're the last person to join
16:11:54 <HackEgo> list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
16:13:15 <b_jonas> Is there a script that replaces 8-ball with a script that (gives the specific answer you chose and then replaces 8-ball with the original version of 8-ball so that it's hard to trace the cheating)?
16:13:31 <b_jonas> `8-ball Is there a script that replaces 8-ball with a script that (gives the specific answer you chose and then replaces 8-ball with the original version of 8-ball so that it's hard to trace the cheating)?
16:13:32 <HackEgo> I'm a random number generator that reads from a file. Make your own damn decisions.
16:13:52 <b_jonas> `8-ball SERIOUSLY? I made you, brother.
16:14:35 <ais523> does that thing ever give a non-joke answer?
16:14:36 <b_jonas> `8-ball You painted over the original traditional messages (from the commercial version of you) that I painstakenly etched on your icosahedronal surface?
16:15:10 <b_jonas> ais523: when I created it, it had the original set of 20 answers, from the commercial product, where 10 answers are yes, 5 are no, and 5 are other.
16:15:45 <ais523> if it's icosahedral, why is it called an 8-ball?
16:17:14 <b_jonas> ais523: the small icosahedral dice is inside a rolling cup which as a gimmick looks like an 8-ball from billiard
16:17:48 <Jafet> it also confuses mathematicians, who think of it as a a 3-ball
16:17:48 <b_jonas> it's an american novelty item, I never saw once in real life, but it's popular, there are multiple scripts on the web emulating it
16:17:56 <b_jonas> and even one story referencing it
16:18:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whoag: not found
16:18:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: höag: not found
16:19:01 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'log 8-ball' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff r
16:19:12 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'log bin/8-ball' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff di
16:20:33 <int-e> `` hg log bin/8-ball
16:20:35 <HackEgo> changeset: 5643:56dcce63901b \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Jun 21 02:47:59 2015 +0000 \ summary: <tswett> revert \ \ changeset: 4566:1b161db44445 \ user: HackBot \ date: Tue Apr 15 10:28:33 2014 +0000 \ summary: <fizzie> mv data/8ballreplies share/; sed -i -e \'s/data/share/\' bin/8*ball; rmdir data # going t
16:20:36 <ais523> I'm failling to load the Wikipedia article
16:20:39 <b_jonas> `perl -e@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/Reply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don't count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print@t
16:20:39 <HackEgo> It is certainIt is decidedly soWithout a doubtYes definitelyYou may rely on itAs I see it, yesMost likelyOutlook goodYesSigns point to yesReply hazy try againAsk again laterBetter not tell you nowCannot predict nowConcentrate and ask againDon't count on itMy reply is noMy sources say noOutlook not so goodVery doubtful
16:20:42 <ais523> this connection is somewhat unreliable
16:20:48 <b_jonas> `perl -e@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/Reply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don't count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print0+@t
16:20:59 <b_jonas> `perl -e@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/Reply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don't count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print 0+@t
16:21:12 <b_jonas> `perl -e@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/Reply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don't count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print$t[rand@t]
16:23:57 <b_jonas> #``` for s in bin/8{-,}ball; echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/Reply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don\x27t count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print$t[rand@t];'
16:24:59 <b_jonas> ``` for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >s echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/Reply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don\x27t count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print$t[rand@t];'; done
16:25:00 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `>' \ bash: -c: line 0: `for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >s echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/Reply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you n
16:25:50 <b_jonas> ``` for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >s echo -n $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/R'; done
16:25:51 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `>' \ bash: -c: line 0: `for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >s echo -n $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/R'; done '
16:26:12 <b_jonas> ``` for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >>s echo 'eply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don\x27t count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print$t[rand@t];'; done
16:26:13 <fizzie> Didn't we already have that, with data in a separate directory?
16:26:13 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `>>' \ bash: -c: line 0: `for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >>s echo 'eply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don\x27t count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print$t[rand@t];'; done '
16:26:43 <b_jonas> ``` for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >>s echo -n 'eply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don\x27t count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlo'; done
16:26:44 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `>>' \ bash: -c: line 0: `for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >>s echo -n 'eply hazy try again/Ask again later/Better not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don\x27t count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlo'; done '
16:27:05 <b_jonas> ``` for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >>s echo 'ok not so good/Very doubtful";print$t[rand@t];'; done
16:27:06 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `>>' \ bash: -c: line 0: `for s in bin/8{-,}ball; >>s echo 'ok not so good/Very doubtful";print$t[rand@t];'; done '
16:27:12 <fizzie> `url share/8ballreplies
16:27:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/share/8ballreplies
16:27:24 <fizzie> That looks like a reasonably good list.
16:27:27 <b_jonas> ah, it's complaining about the missing do, not the missing done
16:27:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: but it's not the original list
16:28:12 <fizzie> I would recommend modifying it, then.
16:28:15 <fizzie> Instead of being redundant.
16:28:28 <b_jonas> ``` for s in bin/8{-,}ball; do >s echo -n $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''@t=split"/","It is certain/It is decidedly so/Without a doubt/Yes definitely/You may rely on it/As I see it, yes/Most likely/Outlook good/Yes/Signs point to yes/Reply hazy try again/Ask again later/Bet'; done
16:29:21 <b_jonas> ``` for s in bin/8{-,}ball; do >>s echo 'ter not tell you now/Cannot predict now/Concentrate and ask again/Don\x27t count on it/My reply is no/My sources say no/Outlook not so good/Very doubtful";print$t[rand@t];'; done
16:29:30 <fizzie> You're writing to "s".
16:29:34 <b_jonas> ` 8-ball are you as good as new?
16:29:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
16:29:51 <b_jonas> maybe it's best I'm not overwriting it if I'm so bad now
16:30:15 <Jafet> the 8-ball may be a gimmick, but eric schmidt has been quoted saying “most people don't want Google to answer their questions. They want Google to tell them what they should be doing next.”
16:31:41 <fizzie> When you retry, please just modify share/8ballreplies, that's why it's there.
16:32:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I think I created it that way because it's almost too long in one line
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16:40:50 <ais523> Jafet: I don't want either, I normally want search engines to find me a web page that discusses a particular subject
16:41:10 <ais523> or even a particular page that I might or might not know of the existence of, but can guess the existence of
16:41:32 <ais523> (e.g. the official database for postcodes in the UK is something that I thought was highly likely to exist, and it in fact does, even though I didn't know it existed in advance)
16:48:47 <nortti> http://people.csail.mit.edu/wjun/papers/sigtbd16.pdf
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17:17:52 <\oren\> hmm... i was thinking about how busybox has a single executable for lots of commands
17:21:08 <\oren\> what if you made a language that did that for most tasks
17:22:21 <ais523> \oren\: I have an unpublished joke language that basically works like this: you give it an anarchy golf problem number
17:22:27 <ais523> that has revealed programs
17:22:39 <ais523> then it tries all the programs in the problem number on the user input and gives you the majority output
17:23:14 <ais523> this makes it very good at solving simple well-known problems, unless they're /so/ well-known that the timeout was set to infinity and there are no programs to download
17:24:59 <ais523> the reason this language is unpublished is that it really needs an interpreter
17:25:04 <shachaf> Many anagol problems are underspecified. :-(
17:25:23 <ais523> (possible enhancement: remove programs that are tagged as cheating, give extra weight to programs that are tagged as genuine)
17:25:34 <\oren\> argh, my meeting was just resceduled
17:25:38 <ais523> shachaf: but they tend to be inversely specified by the actual answers
17:28:22 <\oren\> why does schedule have a h in it
17:28:42 <shachaf> you mean why does it have a c in it hth
17:29:42 <shachaf> no, it's pronounced with a "sh" at the beginning
17:29:57 <ais523> I think that varies by accent
17:30:21 <ais523> in some accents it likely starts with an actual sch phoneme (which is more common in German than in English)
17:30:31 <ais523> I've heard both pronunciations I think
17:30:33 <shachaf> if you mean "dj" you should write that
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17:33:40 <zzo38> Both pronounce are correct in Canadian.
17:34:16 <zzo38> In British is correct with "sh" and in American is correct without, and in Canadian both ways correct.
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17:44:40 <LKoen> are you saying skedjul is not the british pronunciation?
17:51:11 <ais523> "sch" is pronouned very similarly to "sh", and quite differently from "sk"
17:51:28 <ais523> I'm not quite convinced it's identical to an "sh" though
17:58:11 <shachaf> I can hardly hear the difference between them.
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21:09:38 <HackEgo> Your reverberated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
21:09:57 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#reverberated#venerated#
21:09:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your venerated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
21:10:20 <olsner> wisdom seems to be steadily making less sense as time goes on
21:11:23 <imode> 's cause hackego is getting older.
21:17:58 <shachaf> `mkx bin/age//hg identify --num
21:19:41 -!- ybden has changed nick to \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\.
21:20:07 -!- \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ has changed nick to ybden.
21:23:01 <int-e> leaning to the left?
21:23:24 <ais523> I think \ is legal in nicks but / isn't
21:24:07 <ybden> ais523: I tried that
21:26:09 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAaAAAAAaaAAAAaaaaaaa DDOSSED
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22:05:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[D2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50027 * TuxCrafting * (+151) Created page with "D2 is a Brainfuck-like language with a 2D right and down unbounded memory. Specs and interpreter can be found [https://github.com/tuxcrafting/d2 here]"
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22:39:50 <izalove> i need a function that maps the integers 1-64
22:39:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:40:34 <ais523> unless you need to hit both endpoints, but that seems unlikely given the problem description
22:41:11 <izalove> 16 * f(1) * f(2) * ... * f(64) >= 2^48
22:42:16 <izalove> it doesn't make much sense to talk about derivatives, but it must start decreasing slowly and then decrease faster and faster
22:43:10 <izalove> actually it could go from 1 to 2
22:47:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:50:35 <\oren\> wait that's increasing
22:51:00 -!- augur has joined.
22:51:30 <\oren\> y = 1.5 + 1/(2^(64-x))?
22:55:40 * izalove scales the values a little bit
23:02:10 <\oren\> `` tcc -lm -run - <<<'double pow(double,double);int main(){int i;for(i=1;i<=64;i++)printf("%g ",1.5+1/pow(2,i));}'
23:02:11 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: tcc: command not found
23:02:28 -!- imode has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:02:48 -!- imode has joined.
23:03:05 <\oren\> that's what I get for writing oneliners with tcc instead of perl
23:03:30 <ais523> `! c double pow(double,double);int main(){int i;for(i=1;i<=64;i++)printf("%g ",1.5+1/pow(2,i));}
23:04:05 <ais523> `! c int main(void){printf("Hello, world!");}
23:04:27 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'for$i(1..64){print (1.5+1/pow(2,$i))}'
23:04:27 <HackEgo> Undefined subroutine &main::pow called at -e line 1.
23:04:31 <ais523> `! c int main(void){foo();printf("Hello, world!");}
23:04:37 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'for$i(1..64){print (1.5+1/(2**$i))}'
23:04:38 <HackEgo> 21.751.6251.56251.531251.5156251.50781251.503906251.5019531251.50097656251.500488281251.5002441406251.50012207031251.500061035156251.500030517578121.500015258789061.500007629394531.500003814697271.500001907348631.500000953674321.500000476837161.500000238418581.500000119209291.500000059604641.500000029802321.500000014901161.500000007450581.500000003
23:04:45 <ais523> I guess `! c gives no output in the case of a link error?
23:04:48 <ais523> `! c int main(void){foo();printf("Hello, world!");
23:04:54 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'for$i(1..64){print (1.5+1/(2**$i)) . "\n"}'
23:04:54 <HackEgo> 21.751.6251.56251.531251.5156251.50781251.503906251.5019531251.50097656251.500488281251.5002441406251.50012207031251.500061035156251.500030517578121.500015258789061.500007629394531.500003814697271.500001907348631.500000953674321.500000476837161.500000238418581.500000119209291.500000059604641.500000029802321.500000014901161.500000007450581.500000003
23:04:56 <ais523> yes, seems about right
23:04:59 <ais523> and it's probably missing an -lm somewhere
23:05:04 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ interp_file "./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp c"
23:05:06 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'for$i(1..64){print (1.5+1/(2**$i))," "}'
23:05:07 <HackEgo> 21.751.6251.56251.531251.5156251.50781251.503906251.5019531251.50097656251.500488281251.5002441406251.50012207031251.500061035156251.500030517578121.500015258789061.500007629394531.500003814697271.500001907348631.500000953674321.500000476837161.500000238418581.500000119209291.500000059604641.500000029802321.500000014901161.500000007450581.500000003
23:05:21 <ais523> `cat ibin/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
23:05:21 <HackEgo> cat: ibin/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: No such file or directory
23:05:25 <ais523> `cat interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
23:05:26 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ LANG="$1" \ echo >>"$2" \ \ case "$LANG" in \ c) \ HEAD='#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\n#include <string.h>\n#include <sys/types.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) {' \ TAIL='; return 0; }' \ EXT='c' \ GCC='gcc' \ FLAGS='-std=gnu99' \ ;; \ \ c++)
23:05:31 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'for$i(1..64){print ((1.5+1/(2**$i))." ");}'
23:05:32 <HackEgo> 2 1.75 1.625 1.5625 1.53125 1.515625 1.5078125 1.50390625 1.501953125 1.5009765625 1.50048828125 1.500244140625 1.5001220703125 1.50006103515625 1.50003051757812 1.50001525878906 1.50000762939453 1.50000381469727 1.50000190734863 1.50000095367432 1.50000047683716 1.50000023841858 1.50000011920929 1.50000005960464 1.50000002980232 1.50000001490116 1
23:05:33 <ais523> `paste interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
23:05:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
23:05:48 <fizzie> ais523: All the C-running commands are broken in various ways.
23:06:02 <\oren\> just install tcc and be done with it
23:06:32 <\oren\> tcc does the right thing
23:07:02 <ais523> `` sed -e "s/FLAGS='-std/FLAGS='-lm -std/" interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
23:07:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ LANG="$1" \ echo >>"$2" \ \ case "$LANG" in \ c) \ HEAD='#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\n#include <string.h>\n#include <sys/types.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) {' \ TAIL='; return 0; }' \ EXT='c' \ GCC='gcc' \ FLAGS='-lm -std=gnu99' \ ;; \ \ c
23:07:13 <ais523> `` sed -i -e "s/FLAGS='-std/FLAGS='-lm -std/" interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
23:07:20 <ais523> `! c double pow(double,double);int main(){int i;for(i=1;i<=64;i++)printf("%g ",1.5+1/pow(2,i));}
23:07:21 <HackEgo> 2 1.75 1.625 1.5625 1.53125 1.51562 1.50781 1.50391 1.50195 1.50098 1.50049 1.50024 1.50012 1.50006 1.50003 1.50002 1.50001 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5 1.5
23:07:26 <Taneb> Today I found out about a contravariant functor but I am too ill to remember which
23:07:33 <Taneb> Something about affine varieties and algebraic sets
23:07:51 <ais523> `! c printf("Hello, world!\n");
23:08:06 <fizzie> That's the newline problem, I think.
23:08:13 <fizzie> `! c printf("Hello, world!\\n");
23:08:47 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out what's C-unescaping the input
23:08:57 <fizzie> Well, the thing is, for macros you really need it to.
23:09:07 <fizzie> #define FOO bar \n something(); can't end up on one line.
23:09:15 <ais523> presumably the wrapper that goes around gcccomp
23:09:45 <ais523> the `! c command doesn't seem that broken to me, especially now I added the -lm
23:09:57 <\oren\> fizzie: or we could use a convention where say four spaces or more becomes a newline?
23:10:32 <fizzie> ais523: It still doesn't output any errors.
23:11:01 <\oren\> or we could get tcc and have proper control
23:11:06 <ais523> fizzie: that's because it compiles two programs to see which works
23:11:39 <fizzie> ais523: That's not a good enough reason.
23:11:54 <ais523> right, but it's hard to figure out which set of errors you'd want to show
23:11:56 <ais523> or whether to show both
23:12:14 <fizzie> Personally, I think it should just use simple heuristics to decide which one to compile.
23:12:42 <\oren\> if main appears as symbol in code, compile with main?
23:12:57 <ais523> you need a parser to figure that out, at least a rudimentary one
23:13:09 <ais523> also I think it's a legal local variable name
23:13:27 <ais523> `! c char *main = "Hello, world!"; puts(main);
23:13:28 <HackEgo> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 308 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
23:13:53 <ais523> `! c char *m = "Hello, world!"; puts(m);
23:13:56 <\oren\> ais523: that ends up trying to execute the machine code "Hello, world"
23:14:07 <ais523> \oren\: oh right, it's legal both ways roudn
23:14:19 <\oren\> because main doesn't have to be a function ebcause fuck fuck fuck fuck
23:14:20 <ais523> a puts call can't appear outside a function
23:14:31 <ais523> so that would get the int main() { … } wrapper
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23:14:59 <ais523> `! c #include <stdio.h>\nint main(void) { char *main = "Hello, world!"; puts(main); return 0; }
23:15:10 <ais523> `! c #include <stdio.h>\nint main(void) { char *m = "Hello, world!"; puts(m); return 0; }
23:15:35 <fizzie> Yeah, a fine example of a non-broken thing.
23:15:40 <ais523> `! c int main(void) { char *m = "Hello, world!"; puts(m); return 0; }
23:16:01 <ais523> `! c int main(void) { char *main = "Hello, world!"; puts(main); return 0; }
23:16:22 <\oren\> fizzie: you made me cough up a lung form laughing
23:16:50 <fizzie> Besides, wasn't there some case where the two-program thing failed to work because of GCC's nested functions? I think there was.
23:17:25 <\oren\> `! c char *main = "Hello, world!"
23:17:40 <\oren\> `! c char *main = "Hello, world!";
23:17:42 <HackEgo> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 308 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
23:18:23 <\oren\> `! c char *main = "Hello, world!\\n";
23:18:24 <HackEgo> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 308 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
23:18:28 <\oren\> `! c char *main = "Hello, world!\\n"
23:18:47 <ais523> \oren\: the version with no semicolon isn't valid as a program in its own right
23:18:59 <fizzie> Incidentally, the program char *main = "Hello, world!"; would generally execute the pointer's value as machine code, not the string literal's contents.
23:19:05 <ais523> the wrapper adds a semicolon at the end (which is harmless if you provided one because ; is a valid command)
23:19:09 <fizzie> You would need char main[] = "Hello, world!"; for that.
23:20:28 <fizzie> `` echo 'char *main = "x";' | gcc -Wall -x c - -o /dev/null # a well-known warning
23:20:29 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:7: warning: ‘main’ is usually a function [-Wmain]
23:20:50 <ais523> fizzie: there's a blog with that name, isn't there?
23:21:09 <\oren\> `! c char main[]='\xC3'
23:21:16 <\oren\> `! c char main[]="\xC3"
23:21:20 <Taneb> ais523, I think it was kmc's??
23:21:21 <\oren\> `! c char main[]="\xC3";
23:23:44 <\oren\> I had to look up the opcode for RET
23:26:06 <ais523> `! c char main[]="\xEB\xFE";
23:26:17 <ais523> that should be an infinite loop
23:26:42 <ais523> and thus provide a different, easily observable result
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23:28:26 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:29:44 <\oren\> `! c char main[]="";\n#ifdef TMP_MAX\n#error\n#endif
23:29:53 <\oren\> `! c char main[]="";\n#ifdef TMP_MAX\n#error hllo\n#endif
23:30:15 <\oren\> `! c #ifdef TMP_MAX\n#error hllo\n#endif
23:30:31 <zzo38> The official UHS catalog http://www.uhs-hints.com/cgi-bin/update.cgi does not seem to use ETag or Last-Modified, so it can't cache the data. I don't know if any HTTP server supports feature tags.
23:30:37 <\oren\> `! c #ifdef TMP_MAX\n#error hllo\n#endif int main(){return 0}
23:30:41 <\oren\> `! c #ifdef TMP_MAX\n#error hllo\n#endif int main(){return 0;}
23:30:46 <\oren\> `! c #ifdef TMP_MAX\n#error hllo\n#endif\n int main(){return 0;}
23:31:09 <\oren\> `! c #define foo bar\n int main(){return 0;}
23:31:32 <\oren\> `! c #ifdef TMP_MAX\n #error hllo\n #endif\n int main(){return 0;}
23:31:40 <\oren\> `! c #ifdef TMP_MAX\n #error hllo\n #endif\n
23:32:03 <\oren\> `! c #ifdef TMP_MAX\n #error hllo\n #endif\n int main(){return 0;}
23:32:18 <\oren\> `! c char main[]="";\n #ifdef TMP_MAX\n #error hllo\n #endif
23:32:19 <HackEgo> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 308 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
23:33:06 <\oren\> basically, you can use #ifdef TMP_MAX\n #error hllo\n #endif to prevent the one that wraps it from being done
23:33:19 <\oren\> `! c char main[]="\xC#";\n #ifdef TMP_MAX\n #error hllo\n #endif
23:33:20 <HackEgo> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 308 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
23:33:24 <ais523> what does TMP_MAX do anyway?
23:33:26 <\oren\> `! c char main[]="\xC3";\n #ifdef TMP_MAX\n #error hllo\n #endif
23:33:33 <zzo38> The (currently unreleased) FreeUHS catalog utility though will pay attention to ETag and Last-Modified if those headers are present, will handle redirects, a 203 response, and the character set of the response.
23:33:47 <\oren\> ais523: dunno, but I know it's a macro defined in stdio.h
23:34:04 <\oren\> "This macro is the maximum number of unique filenames that the function tmpnam can generate.
23:35:30 <\oren\> `! c printf("%d\\n",TMP_MAX);
23:35:47 <\oren\> `! c printf("%f\\n",TMP_MAX);
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23:38:37 <\oren\> `! c printf("%s\\n",tmpnam());
23:38:45 <\oren\> `! c printf("%s\\n",tmpnam(nULL));
23:38:49 <\oren\> `! c printf("%s\\n",tmpnam(NULL));
23:38:55 <\oren\> `! c printf("%s\\n",tmpnam(NULL));
23:39:00 <\oren\> `! c printf("%s\\n",tmpnam(NULL));
23:39:04 <\oren\> `! c printf("%s\\n",tmpnam(NULL));
23:39:09 <\oren\> `! c printf("%s\\n",tmpnam(NULL));
23:39:24 <fizzie> `! c char main[] = "hhi!\\0@\xb7\x01""1\xd2\xb2\x03""1\xc0\xb0\1H\x89\xe6\x0f\x05X\xc3";
23:39:52 <\oren\> so what it's 26 letters, in two cases, and 10 numbers
23:40:21 <\oren\> they oughta use any byte that's usable in a filename
23:40:22 <ais523> fizzie: how much trouble did you go to to write that? :-D
23:40:31 <ais523> also we so need a `! shellcode
23:40:35 <lambdabot> boily said 11h 38m 6s ago: hellørjan. tdh. t!
23:40:46 <ais523> although I'm not sure what format the shellcode would be in
23:40:48 <fizzie> ais523: However much trouble there can fit between the \xc3 one and that. :)
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23:41:11 <fizzie> I did run into a couple of things, like having to do \\0 instead of \0 because GCC doesn't like 0 bytes in string literals.
23:41:23 * oerjan thinks this is a day for quick log skimming
23:41:37 <fizzie> It was surprisingly game for all other kinds of control characters though.
23:41:55 <fizzie> (Assuming those are getting expanded by the same thing that does \n and \0.)
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23:43:30 <fizzie> Well, that's not exactly proof positive. If the expander left \xc3 untouched, the C compiler would've seen identical sources for those.
23:43:53 <fizzie> `! c printf("%zu", sizeof "\xc3");
23:44:02 <fizzie> `! c printf("%zu", sizeof "\\xc3");
23:44:08 <HackEgo> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 53: 310 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
23:45:54 <fizzie> Hm, that's a bit more convincing.
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23:46:26 <fizzie> `! c printf("foo\042);
23:46:37 <fizzie> So no \x, but yes for octal escapes.
23:46:48 <\oren\> is \x a gnu extension?
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23:47:34 <\oren\> hmm, maybe the expander is some ad hoc program then
23:47:49 <fizzie> Not in C, but maybe in printf(1).
23:48:03 <fizzie> At least I don't see it in POSIX.
23:48:16 <ais523> it oculd also be echo -e
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23:48:29 <ais523> I doubt it's printf(1) because % signs would screw that up
23:48:37 <ais523> `! c printf("%s", "Hello, world!");
23:49:01 <fizzie> ais523: Well, I mean, printf "%b" "$@" or some such.
23:49:40 <ais523> `` printf "%b" "n\nt\tx\x22o\042e"
23:49:56 <ais523> printf %b seems to understand both hex and octal escapes
23:50:03 <fizzie> Not the POSIX one, though.
23:50:12 <fizzie> But yeah, HackEgo's does.
23:50:14 <ais523> `` env POSIXLY_CORRECT=1 printf "%b" "n\nt\tx\x22o\042e"
23:50:33 <fizzie> "The interpretation of a <backslash> followed by any other sequence of characters is unspecified", so it's arguably POSIXLY_CORRECT to do that.
23:51:27 <ais523> huh, \c is a pretty weird escape
23:51:54 <ais523> is it even possible to define what that would do in a C source file? I guess it'd just end the file right there, closing any balanced groups that need closing
23:53:20 <\oren\> `! c printf("\u0022");
23:53:43 <\oren\> `` printf '%b' '\u0022'
23:54:21 <ais523> so, is printf(1) Turing-complete? I know printf(3) is
23:54:35 <ais523> (you use %n exploits in order to get it to overwrite its own internal state)
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00:15:59 <HackEgo> It is rumoured that Taneb invented civilization, but this is false. It was actually invented by Sid Meier, who also invented cities.
00:16:11 <oerjan> `slwd civilization//s/ //
00:16:13 <HackEgo> wisdom/civilization//It is rumoured that Taneb invented civilization, but this is false. It was actually invented by Sid Meier, who also invented cities.
00:17:05 <oerjan> alercah: `le/rn needs no space hth
00:17:21 <Sgeo_> My Prismata client isn't updatig
00:17:43 <oerjan> @tell alercah `le/rn needs no space hth
00:18:01 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:18:11 <oerjan> @tell alercah um after the /
00:20:30 <oerjan> it took care of itself, i take.
00:21:59 <oerjan> . o O ( new HackEgo policy: 3 consecutive commands with syntax or formatting errors and you're out )
00:22:39 <oerjan> i've forgotten what it did
00:22:57 <ais523> it copied random lines from the past of the channel when pinged
00:23:02 <ais523> also placed them in the topic every now and then
00:23:06 <oerjan> except that was, somehow, an abbreviation for oerjan's terrible pun.
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00:25:57 <Cale> Sgeo_: Try shift-refresh?
00:28:00 <Sgeo_> How does that work on the desktop version?
00:28:29 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I did something dumb in the campaign: I clicked "overrun defenders" without realizing that it was effectively the same as just the normal turn end thing
00:28:35 -!- oerjan has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: This channel may contain traces of un-ionizing radicals | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
00:29:13 <shachaf> Overrun defenders is also the same as clicking on any defender, I think.
00:29:23 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I effectively forgot to take a turn because the wording on the button confused me
00:29:24 <shachaf> You can always undo it, as long as you don't commit.
00:29:48 <oerjan> ais523: at least now the topic contains a terrible oerjan pun hth
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00:45:27 <quintopia> what exactly is the syntax for slwd? is it wisdomname//sedcommand?
00:48:07 <oerjan> shachaf: radicals has two meanings hth
00:48:36 <shachaf> doesn't the pun only work without the hyphen-minus
00:48:56 <oerjan> not sure which is best, really
00:49:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: This channel may contain traces of unionizing radicals | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
01:13:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: This channel may contain traces of unpionizing radicals | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
01:13:49 <oerjan> you simply don't understand puns, do you?
01:14:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: This channel may contain traces of unionizing radicals | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
01:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Though, you should've seen the numberpun exchange yesterday
01:15:32 <myname> .oO(dontaskdontaskdontask)
01:16:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, omega-1 is not an ordinal hth
01:16:15 <oerjan> it's a surreal number, at least.
01:19:15 <oerjan> my nearly unsupported guess is that omega/2 would be the number for { 1,2,3,... | omega-1, omega-2, ... }
01:20:10 <oerjan> i suppose one could prove that by adding it to itself...
01:21:18 <oerjan> if my brain felt like it. i once half understood surreal addition, anyway.
01:23:10 <oerjan> hm i seem to be just getting to the exchange.
01:29:19 <oerjan> shachaf: i see you and hppavilion[1] were greatly confused by the `revert bug again.
01:29:44 <oerjan> i'll leave it to fizzie to explain what actually happened there O_O
01:30:23 <fizzie> I didn't see it, it didn't happen.
01:30:23 <oerjan> shachaf: well you accidentally `revert'ed a file creation, and `before did weird stuff
01:30:37 <oerjan> and none of this seemed to have any effect in the repository, anyway.
01:30:44 <oerjan> `cwlprits civilization
01:30:45 <shachaf> confusion is a state of mind hth
01:30:56 <shachaf> i may have been wrong, but i don't think i was confused
01:31:35 <oerjan> good, good. but you certainly managed to confuse hppavilion[1]. and accidentally prevent him from fixing `? civilization before i did
01:31:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, I remember now.
01:31:52 <shachaf> This was the thing where hpp didn't actually do a bot command.
01:32:57 <oerjan> yes but right after the broken double `revert, hppavilion[1] did `slwd civilization//s/^ // and it failed because of a mismatch between repo and file, i think.
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01:42:08 <oerjan> fizzie: is there any particular reason not to just add -r to line 9 of https://github.com/GregorR/hackbot/blob/master/multibot_cmds/lib/revert ?
01:43:15 <fizzie> oerjan: I think we should instead add -C to line 7.
01:43:32 <oerjan> ok no idea what that does.
01:43:41 <fizzie> ("-C --no-backup -- Modified files are saved with a .orig suffix before reverting. To disable these backups, use --no-backup.")
01:44:38 <fizzie> Well, that and removing the find-rm completely, I mean.
01:44:41 <oerjan> (does `revert do thread locking btw)
01:45:40 <fizzie> Ye.. well, sorta-kinda-sorta. It uses the same transact() function as running commands in general.
01:45:49 <oerjan> of course there's still that fishy thing with empty files
01:46:05 <fizzie> So it will actually use the same double-run protocol.
01:47:27 <oerjan> which leaves the question of why `revert fails to delete empty files when `rm succeeds...
01:47:42 <oerjan> s/empty files/previously nonexisting/
01:47:59 <shachaf> can you please fix the canary revert issue while you're at it twh
01:48:09 <oerjan> shachaf: that's the thing this is about
01:48:22 <oerjan> but also the file removal.
01:49:28 <fizzie> oerjan: I think that's just an artefact of hg revert. Reverting to a version where the file didn't exist probably leaves the file in the working copy alone.
01:50:53 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure about that, I would need to do some testing. It might even be a result of the double-running.
01:51:36 <oerjan> i sort of thought all this trouble started at that time, so...
01:52:44 <HackEgo> cat: test: No such file or directory
01:53:14 <oerjan> `` cat test >>tmp/test; rm test
01:53:33 <oerjan> hm nothing fishy there
01:55:05 <fizzie> Yeah, 'test' is restored to pristine condition before the second time that runs.
01:55:31 <oerjan> so i don't see why `revert should be different if it actually tries to remove it.
01:55:44 <fizzie> Because it uses an entirely different hg command.
01:56:09 <fizzie> The repository restoring is done by using 'hg update' in a mode where it discards all working copy changes.
01:56:44 <oerjan> any particular reason not to use that, then?
01:57:19 <fizzie> That can't be used for revert, because it also updates the working copy's parent, i.e. hg's idea of which revision is checked out.
01:58:33 <fizzie> I'd be more comfortable in messing around with this if it had been built on top of git.
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02:03:48 <oerjan> fizzie: your idea for fixing canary sounds harmless enough though.
02:05:19 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: But given computers, this means we should nuke it from orbit
02:05:49 <fizzie> oerjan: I will try to remember to try it out over the weekend (I made a local hackbot setup for the last fix), and maybe prepare a PR if it seems to be working.
02:05:53 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:06:59 <fizzie> FWIW, there's an actual hg command, 'hg backout', for doing what `revert is doing (recording a new change to undo something), but as far as I know, it only does single changesets at a time, while `revert N should go all the way back to there.
02:08:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: an ordinal number represents an order isomorphism class of well ordered sets. it is common to choose the particular representative known as the "von Neumann ordinal".
02:15:27 <fizzie> I think `revert on git could be done with a git reset --hard <commit-to-go-back-to>; git clean -f -d; git reset --soft 'HEAD@{1}'; git commit which is probably an argument in the git/hg debate, but I'm not sure which way.
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02:53:39 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn xkcd/xkcd ([kskkkd]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
02:53:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'xkcd': xkcd ([kskkkd]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
02:54:38 <oerjan> there's a new xkcd whatif this week btw
02:56:41 <Phantom_Hoover> yes hppavilion[1] thank you for explaining why i am right
02:57:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/xkcd//xkcd ([kskkd]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
03:02:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that does not count as a lie hth
03:09:14 <FreeFull> What if we fill the death valley with fireflies?
03:09:16 <hppavilion[1]> 29723993099695944560624711859015281829134680965363463334727603027
03:09:54 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Then they'll catch the baseball traveling through a straw hth
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03:10:43 <FreeFull> What if we swap mariana trench with death valley?
03:12:36 <pikhq> Gigadeath valley, and the fusion of the Pacific and Mariana plates?
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03:17:58 <quintopia> i think i must have missed the pbflist ping for the 9/28 one.
03:18:02 <hppavilion[1]> Under http://xkcd.com/1442/, the elements of Dark Matter are written in cursive script
03:18:05 <quintopia> much better than the one before it
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03:21:59 <quintopia> oh wait...maybe not--it doesn't appear in my logs
03:23:57 <oerjan> `` grep -rl 'fibonacci' wisdom/
03:23:58 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/: No such file or directory
03:24:19 <HackEgo> [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+002F SOLIDUS]
03:24:23 <quintopia> well, i can't find it in the tunes logs either, so...
03:24:32 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
03:24:45 <quintopia> appy polly loggies to whomever's seen it
03:24:48 <oerjan> `` grep -rl 'fibonacci' wisdom/
03:25:03 <oerjan> `` grep -rl 'fibonacci' wisdom/
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03:25:35 <oerjan> `` cat -v <<<"`` grep -rl 'fibonacci' wisdom/"
03:25:36 <HackEgo> grep -rl 'fibonacci' wisdom/
03:26:02 <oerjan> `` grep -rl 'fibonacci' wisdom/
03:46:52 <HackEgo> Your venerated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:53:10 <oerjan> `addquote <hppavilion[1]> I have just learned about "SMASH FACE ON KEYBOARD; POST RESULTS". --- quit: hppavilion[1] (Quit: Leaving) --- join: hppavilion[1] [...] joined #esoteric <hppavilion[1]> ...that was the result, apparently <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, f4
03:53:12 <HackEgo> 1294) <hppavilion[1]> I have just learned about "SMASH FACE ON KEYBOARD; POST RESULTS". --- quit: hppavilion[1] (Quit: Leaving) --- join: hppavilion[1] [...] joined #esoteric <hppavilion[1]> ...that was the result, apparently <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, f4
04:22:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think it'd be funnier if you removed "<hppavilion[1]> ...that was the result, apparently"
04:23:29 <oerjan> i thought that seemed unclear.
04:26:27 <hppavilion[1]> (The study of etymographs, not to be confused with grapho- etymology, the study of historical forms of graphemes, which is more fun)
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04:32:19 <quintopia> i just realized what a great pun unionizing radicals was (the first time i read it as un-ionizing without realizing there was another way to read it)
04:33:15 <oerjan> (i guess that means shachaf was right about removing the hyphen)
04:33:55 <shachaf> are you among the unionizing radicals
04:34:38 <oerjan> i'm neither positive nor negative about that
04:35:21 <shachaf> s#gracious#unionized radical#
04:35:38 <oerjan> weren't you going to shorten it
04:48:48 <hppavilion[1]> "Oh no! I used a slash when I should've used two!"
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04:50:45 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, if English were to adopt [x], I have a feeling we'd give it the digraph <kh>
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04:52:11 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Either that, or the digraph "ch" and we'd accept the resulting confusion.
04:56:49 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl3̈5> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> rm bin -r \ 2014-04-15 <fizzïe> mv data/8ballreplies share/; sed -i -e \'s/data/share/\' bin/8*ball; rmdir data # going to hit some empty-directory problem again, I\'m sure
04:56:57 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 2016-09-25 <jeffl3̈5> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tsweẗt> rm bin -r \ 2014-04-15 <fizzïe> mv data/8ballreplies share/; sed -i -e \'s/data/share/\' bin/8*ball; rmdir data # going to hit some empty-directory problem again, I\'m sure
04:57:15 <oerjan> `` ls -l bin/8{,-}ball
04:57:16 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Sep 25 20:31 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Sep 25 20:31 bin/8-ball
04:59:02 <oerjan> i think "ch" has already been loched-in
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05:12:29 <pikhq> Though, it's not as though English has been content to restrict phonemes to have *unique* spellings.
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05:19:13 <HackEgo> Dhana: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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05:36:00 <izalove> https://github.com/facebook/folly/blob/master/folly/docs/small_vector.md
05:36:23 <izalove> why should i use small_vector<int, 256, NoHeap> v; instead of int v[256]?
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05:40:41 <izalove> same for small_vector<int, 256, NoHeap, uint16_t> v; instead of int16_t v[256]
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06:57:53 <HackEgo> copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
06:59:17 <pikhq> Is copumpkin a member of the set "natural-born US citizen"?
07:00:44 <shachaf> certainly copumpkin is an element of a set isomorphic to that set
07:08:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50028&oldid=46989 * Elronnd * (+59) new esolang
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08:04:51 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I can't imagine us letting [ch] make that sound
08:08:16 <hppavilion[1]> Now, how we'd do [ɣ] ([ɣ]:[x]::[g]:[k]; ɣ is the voiced velar fricative to [x]'s voiceless velar fricative) is another story entirely
08:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> We could do [ɣ] as <gh> by analogy to [x] being <kh>, but that results in confusion when you want to write <enough>; if we DID do that we could write [ɦ] as <hgh> or <ghh>, but that'd be a little weird
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08:38:51 <hppavilion[1]> Aaaaand I just learned about the possibility of vacuum decay
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08:49:24 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if the suicide hotline ever says "you know, you make a good point. Go ahead."
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11:20:44 <hppavilion[1]> My sister and I are reading this weird book we found in a field full of codes
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11:34:11 <hppavilion[1]> Now I just need to write a program to decrypt efficiently
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12:10:06 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized if you have a long string of 'a's in Viginere message, you get the password
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12:19:29 <lambdabot> ais523 said 22h 28m 6s ago: in Asimov's robot series, only two humanoid robots were ever built; Jander was one of them, but is only seen in the past tense because he already was "dead" (i.e.
12:19:29 <lambdabot> permanently incapable of functioning) at the point at which he's introduced to the story
12:21:38 <myname> wikipedia is in fault for redirecting mobile browsers
12:21:54 <myname> you cannot expect everybody to clean every link they send to you
12:23:56 <hppavilion[1]> It's an UNREASONABLE expectation, but I can have it.
12:24:08 * boily mapoles some sanity into hppavilion[1]
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12:24:18 <myname> well yeah, as you expect other people to learn your crazy language
12:25:08 <myname> of all the big sites i know twitter and wikipedia are the only ones that have a subdomain for mobile browsers that annoy desktop users
12:25:23 <myname> even though i son't get what's wrong with the mobile wikipedia view
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12:35:36 <boily> `le/rn xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
12:35:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every m': W/F.
12:36:04 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
12:36:07 <boily> `learn xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
12:36:09 <HackEgo> Relearned 'xkcd': xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
12:36:22 <boily> mynamello. I mixed up the learns hth
12:47:29 <boily> `` sed -i 's/peer gynt/Peer Gynt/' wisdom/peer
12:47:39 <boily> `` sed -i 's/\. h/. H/' wisdom/peer
13:10:43 <lambdabot> CYUL 221200Z 30009KT 10SM -RA BKN012 OVC020 07/07 A2947 RMK SF7SC1 SLP982
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13:41:54 <quintopia> boily sure is up early on a saturday
13:42:14 <quintopia> i wouldnt be if i didnt have to work
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13:58:21 <Zarutian> „Early to bed and early to rise, makes a man stupid and blind in the eyes“
14:11:22 <quintopia> it makes miss out on all the fun that happens at night
14:11:42 <quintopia> but he'll surely be productive and healthy
14:19:56 <Zarutian> early being like 5:30 PM and AM relative to local day-night cycle respectively.
14:51:27 <quintopia> im thinking more like sunset to 8 hours after sunset. or 8 hours before sunrise to sunrise
14:58:55 <FreeFull> You can go to sleep early, wake up in the middle of the night, do some stuff, and then go back to sleep
14:59:40 <FreeFull> That's what people used to do in Europe during winter (longer nights) before gas (and then electric) lighting was a widespread thing
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16:53:40 <izalove> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/X86_Assembly/Control_Flow why is it wrong to load an address into eip with a mov?
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16:57:00 <int-e> I'm not sure about "wrong"... pretty sure there is no such instruction.
16:57:25 <int-e> 8086 had a pop cs though, which is quite funny
16:59:17 <int-e> (CS is the code segment; the current instruction is addressed by CS:IP, so address (CS*16+IP) mod 2^20 on 8086)
16:59:56 <izalove> not familiar with CS:IP, did you mean CS:GO?
17:00:56 <int-e> presumably it would be funny if I knew what CS:GO is.
17:01:14 -!- moony has joined.
17:01:43 <int-e> So what about this new Pokemon:GO...
17:02:07 <Zarutian_> x86 (and its 64 bit variant) is a damn shittily designed ISA in so many ways
17:02:55 <int-e> meh orthogonality is seriously overrated
17:02:56 -!- Zarutian_ has changed nick to Zarutian.
17:03:15 <fizzie> At least x86-64 can sort of do the opposite with lea rax, [rip] (or however your assembler wants that written).
17:03:20 <Zarutian> int-e: I am not only talking about orthogonality but more like the dreath of the register file
17:03:36 <fizzie> Incidentally, arm64 no longer allows you to treat the PC as a GPR either.
17:04:24 <int-e> 16 registers seems fine... 8 was a bit tight.
17:04:26 <Zarutian> and the instruction decoding on x86 is slow slow slow.
17:05:18 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
17:06:13 <fizzie> AArch64 also removes the "most instructions can be conditional" thing, and only pretty much just leaves branches like that.
17:06:19 <Zarutian> which is why it needs so long pipelining which in turn penalizes branch heavy code.
17:06:38 <int-e> also if you care about context switch time you want your register set to be small... not that x86 is doing a good job in that regard...
17:07:24 <Zarutian> int-e: 16-64 registers is alright (I am not only counting GP but stuff like Address Space Name etc)
17:08:06 <Zarutian> int-e: hardware walked page table. Most idotic thing I have seen in MMU design (well after segmentation that is)
17:08:55 <Zarutian> int-e: TranslationLookasideBuffer that causes an fast interrupt to priviledged|kernel code for page in servicing is much simpler.
17:09:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:17:10 <int-e> Hmm, so it is 1986 and you're designing a CPU with 20ish MHz... and you need to add paging... would you really do it in software? That'll cost you a lot of cycles.
17:17:51 <int-e> The rest is just backward compatibility.
17:20:53 <Zarutian> int-e: lot of cycles? maybe two or three cycles to swich from user to kernel, around twenty to change the mapping and what ever it takes for IO to and from disk. (The latter can be done while another task|process is being run making a page fault also a task switch if you like)
17:21:07 <Zarutian> int-e: but yeah on the x86 it costs lots and lots of cycles
17:22:30 <int-e> I thought we were talking about the case where a page was already mapped but not in the tlb.
17:24:04 <Zarutian> then it only takes less that hundred cycles, if written properly
17:24:49 <Zarutian> this is why you want your TLB to be rather big, at least 1024-4096 entries.
17:30:29 -!- imode has joined.
17:30:42 <int-e> my point was that when the hardware pagetable walking was put into the CPU, memory access was fast (because CPUs were slow), something like 2 cycles; doing 3 memory accesses in hardware would be much faster than executing a dozen instructions (which would have to be fetched from memory as well.. caches were only added in i486, as I recall)
17:47:32 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:51:52 <Zarutian> but now its is the other way around and I never understood why hardware pagetable walking wasnt dropped then.
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17:56:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mr. Vegetables * New user account
17:58:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50029&oldid=50013 * Mr. Vegetables * (+195)
17:59:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50030&oldid=49740 * Mr. Vegetables * (+70) /* Implementations */
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20:05:18 <ybden> shouldn't have enabled overcommit
20:06:52 <\oren\> argh. why do some people not understand the concept of repairing things
20:07:33 <\oren\> trying to throw out chairs when I can fix them easily with hotglue, nails, and a big hammer
20:07:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\: because modern cars are an unrepairable black box, not like the ones we had when I was young
20:08:36 <\oren\> wob_jonas: but... these are just wooden friggin chairs, medival level technology.
20:09:14 <myname> burn them til they're repaired!
20:09:56 <\oren\> then again, the person in question also can't figure out how to top off the wind shield wiper fluid
20:10:22 <\oren\> I don't even know how to drive, and I figured t out
20:11:44 <wob_jonas> Is he from like a desert where it never rains?
20:33:17 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: the question is does that person drive without endangering others.
20:39:39 -!- augur has joined.
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21:23:39 <\oren\> Zarutian: well, his driving skills are impeccable
21:23:53 <\oren\> he just can't do any kind of mechanical... anything
21:41:19 -!- boily has joined.
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21:46:22 * boily waves at moony and its satellites
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22:06:09 <moony> Zarutian, my entry is 'moon'
22:06:13 <HackEgo> Moon is a murderous lunatic, not an unretroreflectorey object. He sometimes causes overmoonification.
22:06:34 <moony> Zarutian, for oerjan, see `? oerjan
22:06:45 <moony> for anyone else, good luck ^_^
22:06:54 <Zarutian> moony: btw do you have an idiotic wolf-clone called moon moon?
22:07:09 <HackEgo> slough//slough /slaʊ/ or /sluː/ means a marsh; slough /slʌf/ means skin thrown off a reptile
22:08:33 <moony> Zarutian, maybe :)
22:11:07 <moony> Zarutian, course i did, i got it all the time on [FORUM_NAME]! :P
22:12:52 -!- moony has changed nick to x86-64.
22:17:09 -!- x86-64 has changed nick to x86_64.
22:17:16 -!- x86_64 has changed nick to x86-64.
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22:17:46 -!- iovoid has changed nick to RegExp.
22:20:40 <boily> can Taneb tanebvent styrofoam?
22:21:52 -!- x86-64 has changed nick to x64.
22:21:57 -!- x64 has changed nick to x86-64.
22:24:04 <Zarutian> http://www.cap-lore.com/Economics/DSR/ seems like a good topic to talk about
22:24:41 -!- x86-64 has changed nick to weresegfault.
22:25:32 <HackEgo> segmentation fault? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:26:38 -!- weresegfault has changed nick to segfault.
22:27:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:27:37 <Zarutian> `le/rn segmentation fault/ The segmentation fault can be found just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce various hiccups at the most inconvienent times.
22:27:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'segmentation fault': The segmentation fault can be found just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce various hiccups at the most inconvienent times.
22:27:51 -!- RegExp has changed nick to iovoid.
22:28:16 <Zarutian> iovoid: is that iov-oid or io-void?
22:29:30 <Zarutian> looks like an owl with headphones
22:29:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:29:57 <iovoid> When *whatever* asks for name and I dont want to put real things I use "Io Void"
22:30:06 <wob_jonas> you know, ovoid is a crazy adjective that probably means like egg-shaped or related to a sheep or something
22:30:23 * iovoid is not releated to a sheep nor a egg
22:30:28 <otherbot> ovoid | An egg-shaped curve. Lockwood calls the negative pedal curve of an ellipse with eccentricity e<=1/2 an ovoid. | Burleigh's oval | oval | general plane curves | 14H50 | egg | 1 egg |
22:31:00 <HackEgo> rev: racecar: open failed: No such file or directory
22:31:06 <Zarutian> iovoid: I managed to confuse an DBA by setting "Last name" in an first name field and "First name" in the last name. (Btw why do so many programmer insist of spliting names this way?)
22:31:13 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: racecar: No such file or directory
22:31:20 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: echo: No such file or directory
22:31:28 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `rev < (echo "racecar")'
22:31:38 <otherbot> StringReverse[racecar | (string)] | racecar |
22:31:57 <iovoid> I still wonder who in the world was mad enought to make "NodeOS"
22:32:14 * Zarutian notes "alsírhrísla" as an example of this.
22:32:16 <iovoid> (or the weird idea of jskernel)
22:32:39 -!- GlutrOn has joined.
22:32:55 -!- GlutrOn has set topic: Hi!.
22:33:05 -!- segfault has set topic: staph.
22:33:38 -!- segfault has set topic: There is currently an esolang contest: http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Warning: This channel may contain traces of unionizing radicals | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
22:33:55 <Zarutian> /topic orignal topic lost... but found again
22:34:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:34:28 <iovoid> Well, now we all know where you live :)
22:34:34 * Zarutian looks for old goats.cx gif to inflict upon GlutrOn
22:34:53 <otherbot> segfault: No such group, use list
22:34:57 <otherbot> segfault: trackstats track savetrackdb nick2host timport fixtrackdb trackinfo
22:34:58 <iovoid> -track #esoteric,##powder-bots
22:35:17 <segfault> -trackstarts fla34-2-78-193-39-30.fbxo.proxad.net
22:35:22 <segfault> -trackstats fla34-2-78-193-39-30.fbxo.proxad.net
22:35:23 <otherbot> Found host fla34-2-78-193-39-30.fbxo.proxad.net | Nicks: GlutrOn | Idents: ~xx | Accounts: | Realnames: realname
22:35:41 <iovoid> should trackinfo include GeoIP too?
22:36:08 <segfault> GlutrOn, pls see revived topic
22:36:14 <Zarutian> iovoid: down to the submicron! (possible with IPv6, no?)
22:36:36 <iovoid> Well, GeoIP and IPv6 is...
22:36:48 -!- segfault has set topic: Glutr0n nearly lost the topic! | Warning: This channel may contain traces of unionizing radicals | The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
22:36:54 <iovoid> I dont think there are many of those DBs
22:37:11 <Zarutian> the MaxiMind one is really reliable /s
22:38:53 <GlutrOn> as i'm not a pizza's guru i let you in the zen space of tomato ketchup! ByE
22:39:05 <wob_jonas> The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!
22:39:09 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: The international hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!.
22:39:26 -!- GlutrOn has left ("Leaving").
22:40:28 <Zarutian> `le/rn chargeback/ The backside of an Coloumb.
22:40:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'chargeback': The backside of an Coloumb.
22:42:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:42:42 -!- augur has joined.
22:42:47 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: and what do you think about that issue?
22:45:23 <Zarutian> what did the fembot say to the masbot when the latter got naked?
22:46:03 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: the issue of issues
22:46:23 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]: The first message I saw was "<Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: and what do you think about that issue?"
22:46:34 * Zarutian continues with the joke: "I can see your nuts"
22:46:52 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: You DO realize IRC doesn't tell you what happened before you joined, right?
22:47:29 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: I know. Also know that this is a tradition as old as IRC. To ask a new joiner something they cant possibly know
22:48:56 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:49:21 * Zarutian comes up with another ending: "Is that thing electrical or pnumatic?"
22:50:11 * iovoid goes look at calesyta thing
22:51:05 <HackEgo> b//B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop strange letters altogether.
22:51:23 <HackEgo> isomorphism//isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
22:51:28 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:51:43 <HackEgo> fisdom//fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
22:51:49 <HackEgo> sled//`sled <filename>//<sed script>
22:51:58 <HackEgo> minpoijjikop//Minpoijjikop bfjoustioppl sdardqwcasf uyvjhyb mipjkpmo.
22:53:14 <HackEgo> sand//Sand is what microprocessors are made of. Taneb invented it.
22:53:58 <Zarutian> aah, Sand yes, the S operator applied to and then used heavily
22:54:27 <segfault> grey//Grey is a common misspelling of Gey
22:54:37 <segfault> we have 'gay' jokes in hackego. your kidding m
22:55:02 <Zarutian> segfault: what is wrong with just joyfull jokes, eh?
22:55:05 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: no, the sand ones are RAM-based, not functional
22:55:14 <Zarutian> segfault: people might think you are against merriment
22:57:37 <segfault> Earth+Water==Mud. Mud+Fire=sandstone. Sandstone+air==Sand.
22:58:12 <segfault> highlight this. spoiler alert!
23:00:26 -!- jeffl35 has changed nick to segmentation-fau.
23:00:35 -!- segmentation-fau has changed nick to jeffl35.
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23:06:47 <wob_jonas> Was http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=448 before or after Jeph started to live from QC?
23:06:49 <Zarutian> no'ing on da telly and I am sore need o' 'nterment', so
23:07:46 <zzo38> How much level do you think will be a Dungeons&Dragons spell that can make any people in the area to blink during its duration (but not affecting combat)?
23:09:10 <Zarutian> zzo38: the 'show them your erotic stamp collection' kind of spell?
23:09:38 <zzo38> I do not understand. What has erotic stamp collecting to do with it?
23:09:39 * segfault facedesks from Zarutian's last msg
23:09:54 -!- alercah has joined.
23:10:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: um, blink their eyes from like a flash of light? just cast Dancing Lights and create the lights right in front of the people's faces.
23:10:43 <zzo38> No. I mean force group of people to blink even if they are creatures that do not normally blink in bright light or are blind or whatever
23:10:58 <zzo38> And without creating flashes of light
23:11:33 <zzo38> Yes, as long as they have eyelids
23:11:42 <wob_jonas> so like a wind spell or a spell that summons bugs you direct to their faces?
23:12:17 <wob_jonas> hmm, but they'd have work even if they're wearing protective goggles. bugs can't do that.
23:12:29 <wob_jonas> I mean, if they're both blind and wearing protective goggles
23:14:06 <Zarutian> segfault: oh, that. It is colliqually called "Pixie Porn" by some.
23:14:08 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: The erotic stamp collection is because it's such a weird thing for somebody to have
23:14:45 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: and you think dungeon crawling with a ten foot pole is normal?
23:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> And I'm trying to figure out if Alice and Bob (technically Bill, but Bill is a stupid name) are supposed to be porking...
23:15:55 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: can they be applied to geometry? I ask because there are some people in the market for surreal estate.
23:16:19 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Depends on what kind of geometry you're doing; are coordinates allowed?
23:17:17 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Have you actually read the book? I'm unsure if this is a joke
23:17:25 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: I am not telling about the kidding part. But yeah coordnates are allowed.
23:17:39 <wob_jonas> I have read the book in translation lon ago
23:17:44 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: No, the kidding is directed at wob_jonas
23:17:53 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Then you can probably use surreal numbers
23:18:19 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But to be clear, the thing that makes surreal numbers surreal is the use of infinities and infinitesimals and infinity^infinity and such
23:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> Under MWI quantum physics, how many universes are there? (in terms of magnitude, not an exact number)
23:18:59 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: sounds like an description of the floor plan of the Hilbert Hotel then
23:19:53 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: no no no. Hilbert's hotel just has a large set of rooms
23:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> You know, I'd actually like to see schematics for it
23:20:09 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: I think you don't understand how surreal numbers work
23:20:19 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yes, but presumably they were arranged in a form
23:20:29 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: but are the carpets on the hallways serpenski patterned?
23:22:15 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Strictly, the hallways are modeled to look like a cuboidal Menger sponge from the inside, when you remove all but the outer layer
23:22:23 <zzo38> I know some stuff about surreal numbers
23:22:44 <hppavilion[1]> Economically, what would be the pricing on the Hilbert hotel?
23:23:19 <hppavilion[1]> By supply and demand, there are infinite rooms, so it should be all but free
23:23:56 <Zarutian> so by that logic the price per room is infintly infesitesimal
23:23:59 <segfault> what is the derivative of ln(2)^e dx?
23:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But presumably- for it to meet standards- the rooms have to be kept clean & up to code
23:24:32 <myname> if everybody pays any positive amount, hilbert has an infinite amount of money
23:24:39 <zzo38> You can specify the number according to one set of surreal numbers which are less than this number and one set of surreal numbers which are greater than this number, and then apply rules for addition and so on. Positive numbers means you win, negative numbers means opponent win, zero means the nonactive player wins, and numbers that are neither positive, negative, nor zero, indiciates that the active player wins, is I think how it is worked
23:25:13 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's related to Game Theory, but we usually don't talk about that part
23:25:18 <segfault> -wolf "maybe this could help this debate/argument/etc"
23:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> And you can't have any not clean, even if nobody's in them
23:25:35 <segfault> -wolf "maybe this could help this debate/argument/etc"+"!"
23:25:45 <hppavilion[1]> So you need infinitely many housekeepers to clean all the rooms
23:26:02 <otherbot> integral infinity dx = x infinity+constant | infinity+constant |
23:26:05 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: but where would there housekeepers sleep?
23:26:33 <segfault> in infinitly many rooms? but that makes more rooms to clean!
23:27:23 <zzo38> I thought that if the room number are one, two, three, four, etc and if each one cost however much money is the room number then you will have -1/12 amount of money in total.
23:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> Now, the Hilbert Hotel was built on the site of the Blackwood estate
23:28:04 <zzo38> O, and how much the site of Blackwood estate cost?
23:28:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no you won't because people won't fill all the rooms. they'll all ask for cheaper rooms, so eventually you'll only have a finite amount of money
23:29:14 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: (The Blackwood Estate is a fictional place in the also-fictional US state of Franklin, which is used in property & inheritance law homework problems in law school. hth.)
23:29:21 <myname> also, everybody would hate the new customer
23:29:22 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, that is how you are going to earn money; you are going to ensure that everyone ask for cheaper rooms.
23:29:45 <zzo38> And therefore it will be a positive amount in total.
23:30:15 <hppavilion[1]> So, housekeepers alone require that you spend $8 per housekeeper
23:30:42 <myname> there is no need for housekeepers
23:30:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:30:48 <myname> just don't reuse rooms
23:31:10 <hppavilion[1]> myname: No, even if the rooms aren't reused you legally have to keep them in a state where they COULD be used
23:31:25 <wob_jonas> hpp: but surely not all the rooms are in Franklin. you just employ the housekeepers in an infinity of different states with cheaper and cheaper minimum wage
23:31:35 <myname> how do you know where hilbert opened his hotel?
23:31:54 <wob_jonas> oh no, the cow puns are starting again!
23:32:01 <Zarutian> say, just to ask about real world hotels for a second: isnt anything above 20 bucks for a zero star hotel room per night basically a ripoff?
23:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> Not by statute law, but because it was determined in King v. State of Franklin that people cannot be moved out of their room when a vacant room is available
23:32:38 <myname> hppavilion[1]: also, if anybody wants to check if there are rooms that cannot be used, the chance of him taking any room that couldn't is practically zero
23:32:53 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: NYC and San Fran Sisko for example.
23:34:28 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Dammit, should've made it a civil case of King v. Bayes because even if p=0, it can still happen )
23:35:32 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Or maybe a civil forfeiture case... THOSE are fun )
23:35:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:35:53 <otherbot> Hosts matching hppavilion[1]: 74-114-87-88.dynamic.asdk12.org, 58-0-174-206.gci.net, 74-114-87-79.dynamic.asdk12.org, 93-231-58-66.gci.net, 74-114-87-81.dynamic.asdk12.org, 74-114-87-86.dynamic.asdk12.org, 74-114-87-82.dynamic.asdk12.org, 74-114-87-71.dynamic.asdk12.org, 74-114-87-92.dynamic.asdk12.org, 74-114-87-84.dynamic.asdk12.org, 74-114-87-90.dynamic.asdk12.org
23:36:10 <segfault> hppavilion[1], nice hostlist :L
23:36:55 <segfault> jeffl35 and iovoid wrote the tracking module *gets it disclosed and classified by the NSA*
23:36:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The intraplanetary hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!.
23:37:08 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: what is the judgement on HARAs (Hostile Asset Recovery Action). Basically what someone does against a warlord to stuff they 'seized' in their 'country'.
23:38:17 <otherbot> Hosts matching notjeffl35: unaffiliated/jeffl35, 35.45.148.146.bc.googleusercontent.com, gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.224.86.142, gateway/shell/fnordserver.eu/x-umyigqpjsuoxeigp, unaffiliated/alexwall
23:38:40 <otherbot> Hosts matching jeffool: 216-67-74-235-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net
23:38:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!.
23:38:59 <segfault> -wolf geoip 216-67-74-235-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net
23:39:01 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i moved it to the front once before.
23:39:04 <otherbot> acsalaska.net (domain) | name | Alaska Communications Systems Group | location | Fairbanks, Alaska, United States | coordinates | 64° 50' 11"N, 147° 39' 7"W | daily page views | ~~ 11000 hits/day (hits per day) (based on Alexa estimates, as of October 22, 2016) | daily visitors | ~~ 5000 visits/day (visits per day) (based on Alexa estimates, as of October 22, 2016) | site rank | ~~ 739728th
23:39:25 <fizzie> oerjan: I saw it in the front.
23:39:55 <oerjan> fizzie: well sure, i mean that this is the second time i move it there
23:39:57 <segfault> glutr0n replaced the topic with 'Hi!' earlier. may have not fully copied it all back
23:40:35 <oerjan> it seems to have everything except my awful pun from yesterday
23:40:42 <wob_jonas> News: speed eating contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric font design: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!
23:40:48 <oerjan> which is probably expired anyway
23:40:51 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: News: speed eating contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric font design: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!.
23:41:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!.
23:41:26 <oerjan> wob_jonas: that piece of information is of a kind that should be accurate hth
23:41:27 -!- segfault has set topic: BREAKING NEWS: speed eating contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric font design: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!.
23:41:34 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Glutr0n nearly lost the topic!.
23:41:43 <oerjan> am i going to have to add +t again
23:42:03 <Zarutian> segfault: NON-BREAKING NEWS, whould have fit better
23:42:10 <wob_jonas> News: speed dating contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/
23:42:19 <Phantom_Hoover> +t is anathema to the values upon which #esoteric was founded
23:42:41 -!- segfault has changed nick to News.
23:42:44 <Zarutian> ossified topics are the bane of many chanels
23:43:20 <Zarutian> News: and what about the Faux one?
23:43:28 <News> wob_jonas: yuping
23:44:25 * News : Segfault has Disappeared!
23:44:26 <oerjan> Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: what is the judgement on HARAs (Hostile Asset Recovery Action). <-- someone should make an international treaty forbidding euphemisms for war actions
23:44:56 <Zarutian> oerjan: it is more merchanry than war
23:46:38 <Zarutian> oerjan: also happened in USA when the West was still Wild. Specially against 'sherifs' (that didnt and dont have any legimate authority)
23:47:44 <oerjan> i vaguely thought sheriffs were elected officials. although perhaps not always legitimately so.
23:48:29 <Zarutian> oerjan: with voter fraud rampant? and in seriousness, there were some 'voted'
23:49:11 <Zarutian> oerjan: also oyster romance novels are overrated.
23:51:01 <Zarutian> but yeah, 'civil asset forfeiture' is just an euphemism for theft
23:51:02 * News eats the oysters
23:53:17 * oerjan still has no idea what the oyster romance novels thing is about.
23:53:38 <int-e> are they about coming out of the shell?
23:54:05 <oerjan> i've always thought my shell was a turtle, not an oyster.
23:54:05 <int-e> almost 1am, don't answer that, I need sleep ;)
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00:22:51 <godel> can I ask what do you think about my language?
00:22:54 <godel> https://github.com/gciruelos/quiver
00:22:54 <HackEgo> godel: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:23:57 <boily> I like the language. it feels zucchinesque.
00:24:27 <godel> zucchinii is a language?
00:24:33 <wob_jonas> what does zucchiniesque even mean?
00:25:40 <godel> I'm reading, programs are graphs too
00:25:44 <godel> but the idea is different
00:27:50 <godel> I'm not very involved in the esolang community
00:28:27 <boily> wob_jonas: wob_jellonas. it's like auberginy languages, that one is zucchinesque hth
00:29:29 <Zarutian> godel: no in general. That programs are Directed Graphs. You never seen a flowchart of a program?
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00:36:44 * Zarutian is somewhat proud to have made an dual stack machine variant that has only one primitive branch instruction, no add or other such ALU instructions.
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00:43:10 <wob_jonas> Wait, is she actually trying to shake hands in http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=528 ? Early Hannelore is out of character.
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00:54:16 <godel> Zarutian: well yes
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01:25:33 <HackEgo> Peer Gynt is a famous norwegian troll. His reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
01:26:01 <oerjan> boily: the lack of capitalization there was sort of intentional, to match the irc error.
01:26:32 <oerjan> also you forgot norwegian, you wile francophone
01:27:02 <HackEgo> wisdom/peer//Peer Gynt is a famous Norwegian troll. His reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
01:27:33 <boily> capitalizing languages is weird hth
01:27:42 <oerjan> (well, technically norwegian doesn't do it either)
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01:29:33 <boily> English is the universal weirdness we make sense with.
01:30:22 <oerjan> german otoh doesn't capitalize the word for norwegian, but does capitalize the word for language hth
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01:31:01 <myname> which makes perfect sense
01:33:13 <oerjan> wow outragé is genuine
01:34:17 <oerjan> oh outrage isn't from out+rage at all
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01:34:43 <oerjan> "From Middle English and Old French oltrage (“excess”), from Late Latin *ultragium or *ultraticum ("a going beyond") and from Latin ultra (“beyond”); rather than from out and rage."
01:37:17 <boily> of course it's genuine. for whom do you take me for, tsé :P
01:47:44 <boily> . o O ( what is that hideous cacophony that appeared in the wisdom... )
01:51:54 <boily> `` ls wisdom/*cacophony*
01:51:55 <HackEgo> wisdom/the most hideous cacophony in g minor
01:52:12 <boily> it's also refered in at least one another entry...
01:52:17 <HackEgo> The result was a short burst of the most hideous cacophony in G minor.
01:52:25 <boily> ↑ that one too, apparently.
01:56:43 <HackEgo> [U+1F024 MAHJONG TILE BAMBOO]
01:57:07 * boily sighs in latexasperation...
01:57:16 <imode> iovoid: hey, I saw your VoidLang page on the wiki. using your language, how would you form an if-else construct?
02:08:17 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, my Viginere implementation returns incorrect output when the keychar and msgchar are the same
02:10:07 <hppavilion[1]> But, like, here's an example: I am the dark lord santacus, and have come to devour your children. => R?u{+<CTCP>q 4rlt? }}q)u|nl:+nwvln?w}xr).or +x.nurx p{7 => I am the dark ord santacus, and have come to devou your childen.
02:14:00 <zzo38> It is using the control characters ^L and ^R instead of the proper "l" and "r" in a few cases, it look like to me?
02:14:13 <boily> is it feasible to write poetry shorter than haiku?
02:14:44 <myname> define poetry and shorter
02:15:32 <oerjan> boily: oh. the cacophony one was a douglas adams reference hth
02:15:59 <boily> poetry: congealed poet juice on a slice of paper.
02:16:30 <boily> shorter: that which shorts electrical circuits.
02:16:48 <myname> well, in this case "hello world" is shorter poetry
02:20:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: so, an off by 96 error? >:)
02:21:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
02:21:42 * oerjan seems to have started trying to solve tatham's Loopy puzzle by only removing lines instead of marking them (except at the end to check the solution)
02:24:27 <oerjan> this is working surprisingly well. but may have some error correcting problems.
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02:33:54 <boily> `` rm wisdom/xkcd\ \(*
02:34:11 <HackEgo> xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
02:34:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every m//W/F.
02:35:55 <hppavilion[1]> Block Reverse: Key is a positive natural n; works by dividing message into n-length chunks (currently having a problem in deciding what to do when len(msg) % n != 0), reverse each chunk, join the message back together
02:36:09 <oerjan> it has been suggested making two /'s mandatory even with `le/rn
02:36:43 <oerjan> since many of the mixups are now essentially about that
02:37:22 <hppavilion[1]> Block Shift: Key is a positive natural n, works by dividing message into n-length chunks (ditto problem), rotating each chunk by n, rejoining
02:38:36 <myname> both of them are stupid and in both of them it wouldn't be a problem if the last segment is shorter
02:39:07 <myname> also, shifting an n long block by n is basically a nop
02:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I meant that it has two keys- positive integer n, integer k, it divides into n-length chunks, rotates each by k, and rejoins
02:41:33 <myname> you can break both of them in seconds
02:42:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's not to be used on its own except against particularly dull human decypherers and as an educational tool
02:43:38 <myname> the only way they would somehow make any encryption better by combining is if you are doing security through obscurity
02:43:53 <hppavilion[1]> Full reverse (no key): Reverse entire message (pretty shit even by these standards); Full shift: key is integer k, rotate the entire message by k spaces (potentially even worse)
02:43:58 <myname> which is not a good idea in almost any case
02:47:17 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Though technically, security through obscurity doesn't violate the word of Kerckhoff's principle
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02:48:11 <hppavilion[1]> myname: "A cryptosystem should be secure even if everything about the system, except the key, is public knowledge" doesn't mean that you have to voluntarily MAKE the knowledge public
02:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> The NSA's cyphers are (in theory) cryptographically secure, but also secret as an extra layer of security
02:49:09 <myname> the point is, most people can't do crypto
02:49:23 <zzo38> That is correct but the algorithm should be public if it is to be used by many people or programs or whatever, rather than just a single private communication between only two people.
02:49:26 <myname> we had rfid keys here, based on mifare classic
02:49:42 <myname> mifare decided to make its own crypto, called crypto1
02:49:56 <myname> it has a c implementation nowadays, called crapto1
02:50:23 <myname> i am sure you get why it has this name
02:50:36 <HackEgo> U+1F41A SPIRAL SHELL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 9a UTF-16BE: d83ddc1a Decimal: 🐚 \ 🐚 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
02:50:41 <myname> at one point, we could make a key to open every door
02:51:02 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, this does mean that almost the only people who will be trying to find flaws will be malicious hackers; publishing it gives genuine, benevolent academics the opportunity to say "yep, this is good" or "hey, if you just give it the key \'admin password\' it cracks automatically", thus preventing you from using an insecure system
02:51:48 <hppavilion[1]> myname: None of these cyphers are meant to be used for proper over-the-internet security anyway
02:51:48 <boily> ♪ DING ♪ wisdom PDF updated!*
02:52:13 <boily> hppavellon[1]. what's a yaywhere?
03:09:04 <zzo38> GURPS rules says that you are allowed to define the same person as being both your dependent and your ally. But can you define the same person to be both your dependent and your enemy?
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03:12:56 <imode> @ask iovoid how would you creae an if-else construct in VoidLang? very interested.
03:13:10 <iovoid> imode, well you could use the if-first-item-is-0-break-loop thing
03:13:10 <iovoid> Like code[?dothingsiffirst-item-is-0]do-other-things
03:14:04 <iovoid> My current implementation in NodeJS doesnt support multiple loops, but I will improve it when I find a good way to do that
03:14:36 <imode> right, you can use loops as conditionals. my issue is how would you continue control flow after the "else" clause...
03:15:15 <imode> if(tos == 5){push 5;}else{push 6;}push 7;
03:16:36 <imode> so if I use [?<code>]<other_code>, the <other_code> will always be executed.
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03:20:13 <imode> reason I ask is because I have a language that uses a similar looping construct, and you can construct conditional blocks using [,:?<code_if_true>;]
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03:20:35 <imode> but I don't really have a clean way of producing an "else".
03:21:26 <imode> reason being, for an "else" you'd have to either check the negation of the condition you've already checked during the first 'if'...
03:21:46 <imode> and in order to do that you'll have to step over the potential stack effects earlier or push a flag noting the condition.
03:21:58 <imode> so you could do it..
03:23:23 <myname> don't you have like the same problem with bf?
03:23:37 <imode> different loop construct though.
03:23:48 <myname> i'd say make a "global" variable that is checked on else
03:24:01 <imode> try that with a nested conditional. :\
03:24:10 <imode> [,:? <if> ,0;] [? <else> ;] is a partial solution.
03:24:33 <imode> the else clause checks for 0 on the top of the stack.
03:24:43 <myname> you don't need nested conditionals to be tc
03:24:56 <imode> the goal isn't to be only tc.
03:25:16 <imode> if that were the case, then I'd be writing just another brainfuck clone. I'm not. :P
03:44:47 <FreeFull> How about an esoteric language that is actually just C
03:45:18 * pecan . o O ( C but with APL-style unicode syntax )
03:47:48 <HackEgo> The segmentation fault can be found just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce various hiccups at the most inconvienent times.
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03:48:34 <hppavilion[1]> A student asks is professor "Professor, where is the best place to research emergent behavior online", and the professor says "Well, you open your browser, go to the search bar, and type literally anything".
03:49:30 <oerjan> needs more moon repellant hth
03:49:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rw: not found
03:49:48 <HackEgo> wisdom/==//Did you know you can define == recursively!?
03:50:02 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1̈] fizzïe evilips̈e hppavilion[1̈] oerjän zui438̈s
03:50:17 <HackEgo> <hppavilion[1̈]> rm wisdom/== \ <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn ==/Did you know you can define == recursively!? \ <oerjän> revert 4969 \ <zui438̈s> echo \\r\\n\\t\\0\\0\\0 > wisdom//./==
03:51:41 <oerjan> `culprits bin/cwlprits
03:51:57 <HackEgo> <fizzïe> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ <jeffl3̈5> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ <shachäf> mkx bin/cwlprits//culprits "wisdom/$1"
03:52:29 <hppavilion[1]> I just found http://www.robertecker.com/hp/research/leet-converter.php?lang=en
03:52:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: `rw doesn't exist because it's redundant with `forget hth
03:54:33 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like it should be 'g', but 'gos' means nothing to me
03:54:35 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: It decodes 1 as l if you switch it into advanced leet
03:55:15 <FreeFull> For some reason it does braille and stuff too
03:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, truee programmers can only speak in 0x539
03:56:16 <FreeFull> 48656c6c6f2c202365736f7465726963
03:56:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think i made that i don't remember if it means anything hth
03:57:02 <FreeFull> 1337 must have been quite the year
03:58:21 <oerjan> had the black death started yet?
03:59:02 <FreeFull> Oh, I guess 1346 is when it started peaking, so maybe
04:00:25 <FreeFull> "Nestorian graves dating to 1338–1339 near Lake Issyk Kul in Kyrgyzstan have inscriptions referring to plague and are thought by many epidemiologists to mark the outbreak of the epidemic"
04:00:29 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: The Qinese famine ended because it doesn't count as starving if you die from the black death hth
04:01:38 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Also as people die, there are fewer people to eat the remaining food
04:03:30 * oerjan wonders how the poles managed to avoid it
04:03:53 <FreeFull> oerjan: What, the Chinese famine?
04:04:12 <oerjan> this picture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
04:04:29 <oerjan> a big polish patch never got red
04:04:37 <oerjan> iceland is easier to understand
04:04:54 <FreeFull> "The plague was somewhat less common in parts of Europe that had smaller trade relations with their neighbours, including the Kingdom of Poland, the majority of the Basque Country, isolated parts of Belgium and the Netherlands, and isolated alpine villages throughout the continent."
04:04:59 <FreeFull> Less movement of people, it seems
04:05:21 <oerjan> i guess that still leaves milan
04:05:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: They had been visiting Stockholm and didn't want to leave; they died with the rest of the Stockholmers
04:06:21 <imode> cool! [ <condition> ;] [,:?. <if> ,~;] [~? <else> ;]
04:06:39 <imode> hppavilion[1]: just made an "if-else" in my language.
04:06:44 <imode> been thinking about it all day.
04:07:11 <hppavilion[1]> Did you implement it in the compiler or is it somehow implemented?
04:07:22 <imode> stack-based. no direct jumps. compiler/interpreter is partially implemented.
04:08:25 <imode> includes function definitions, conditionals, arbitrary-base numbers... etc.
04:08:50 <FreeFull> There's no reason why a plague like that couldn't happen, other than increased hygiene and such
04:09:37 <imode> all single-character commands. it's quite fun to write in. easy to write down in a notebook, on paper...
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04:13:21 <imode> http://pastebin.com/dp21tvWU
04:21:47 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might've just broken the record for 'weirdest cryptographic test string'
04:21:57 <hppavilion[1]> I used: "I am the dark lord santacus, and have come to devour your children. Bow before my unholy wrath, or be consumed with your offspring. And remember kids: He who fights monsters should be careful, lest he become a monster himself; and when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss may gaze into you."
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04:31:46 <FireFly> FreeFull: I guess that is a good thing about famines, that they tend to solve themselves over time
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04:39:54 <HackEgo> You're in a 20 foot by 20 foot stone room. A stout oaken door banded with iron affords the only visible egress. As you approach the door, an imp appears. "Hello, INSERT NAME. To pass, you must solve my puzzle. SEE HANDOUT 1 ON PAGE 17."
04:41:30 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e b_jonäs
04:42:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's a quote from this http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/984.html
04:44:58 <oerjan> `slwd segmentation fault//s/can be found/is/
04:45:00 <HackEgo> wisdom/segmentation fault// The segmentation fault is just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce various hiccups at the most inconvienent times.
04:46:04 <shachaf> `cwlprits segementation ault
04:46:07 <oerjan> `slwd segmentation fault//s/ //
04:46:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/segmentation fault//The segmentation fault is just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce various hiccups at the most inconvienent times.
04:46:13 <shachaf> `cwlprits segementation fault
04:46:31 <oerjan> shachaf: have you considered copying and pasting twh hth
04:46:56 <shachaf> `cwlprits segmentation fault
04:48:01 <HackEgo> sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "$verb '$key': $value"
04:48:50 <oerjan> it feels so crude to drop a sed into that.
04:49:21 <oerjan> but i'm at the point where i just want to chop [ /]* off the start of value.
04:49:36 <shachaf> just fail if it starts with a space
04:49:54 <shachaf> that way people can feel bad for violating arbitrary rules they didn't know about
04:49:57 <oerjan> well the thing is i'm not good enough with shell to do that.
04:50:35 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e shachäf shachäf
04:50:50 <HackEgo> 2015-06-07 <shachäf> ` rm wisdom/le; mkdir wisdom/le; echo \'le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past\' > wisdom/le/rn \ 2015-06-07 <shachäf> ` sed -i \'s/$/./\' wisdom/le/rn \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1
04:50:58 <shachaf> reversed dowg ought to exist
04:51:36 <oerjan> you know, i think maybe that's my fault.
04:51:41 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//;s,\(\(..\?\)\?/\)*,,") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat
04:51:47 <shachaf> also a version of dowg that filters out evilips̈e and 942e964c81c1
04:52:39 <HackEgo> bin/?//#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooo
04:53:24 <HackEgo> bin/?//#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//;s,\(\(..\?\)\?/\)*,,") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then
04:53:33 <oerjan> `` mkx "`before 'bin/?'`"
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04:53:56 <HackEgo> bin/?//#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//;s,\(\(..\?\)\?/\)*,,") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then
04:53:58 <shachaf> you're pleased with yourself, aren't you
04:54:01 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl;
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04:54:29 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
04:55:49 <shachaf> I meant about the mkx/before combination
04:56:10 <shachaf> Which is unfortunately not perfect.
04:56:36 <shachaf> For example, if a file contains \0, the command line is truncated.
04:56:50 <oerjan> i don't think this file did hth
04:56:52 <shachaf> (So it won't work for binary files usually.)
04:56:56 <shachaf> And you need to explicitly choose between mk and mkx.
04:57:26 <shachaf> So a per-file revert might be a useful feature.
04:59:33 <oerjan> `` cd bin; for f in doa dow hoa how; do mkx "${f}t//${f}g "'"$@"'" | tac"; done
05:00:00 <HackEgo> 2015-06-05 <shachäf> ` mkdir le; ln -s ../bin/learn le/rn \ 2015-06-05 <oerjän> ` rm le/rn; ls -s ../bin/slashlearn le/rn \ 2015-06-05 <shachäf> ` ln -s ../bin/slashlearn le/rn
05:00:11 <HackEgo> 2015-06-07 <shachäf> ` rm wisdom/le; mkdir wisdom/le; echo \'le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past\' > wisdom/le/rn \ 2015-06-07 <shachäf> ` sed -i \'s/$/./\' wisdom/le/rn \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1
05:03:38 <oerjan> `` cd bin; for f in doa dow hoa how; do culprits bin/${f}t; done
05:04:00 <oerjan> `` cd bin; for f in doa dow hoa how; do culprits "bin/${f}t"; done
05:04:17 <oerjan> `` for f in doa dow hoa how; do culprits "bin/${f}t"; done
05:04:26 <HackEgo> oerjän \ oerjän \ oerjän \ oerjän
05:07:41 <HackEgo> danddreclist 84: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
05:13:57 <oerjan> @tell zarutian `le/rn does not use a space after the / hth
05:14:09 <HackEgo> The backside of an Coloumb.
05:18:35 <HackEgo> isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
05:18:44 <oerjan> `slwd isomorphism//s/i/I/
05:18:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/isomorphism//Isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
05:19:02 <HackEgo> 2013-05-31 <boil̈y> learn isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism. \ 2013-07-31 <FreeFul̈l> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ 2013-07-31 <Bik̈e> revert \ 2014-03-16 <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ 2014-03-16 <oerjän> revert \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e96
05:19:34 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2015-08-03 <mromän> learn fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station. \ 2015-08-03 <mromän> learn fisdom is the domination by the f
05:19:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/fisdom//Fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
05:20:52 <HackEgo> Sand is what microprocessors are made of. Taneb invented it.
05:21:02 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
05:21:28 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s/persi/sand, persi/
05:21:31 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
05:21:56 <HackEgo> 2016-10-22 <segfaul̈t> slwd sand//s/GregorR/Taneb/ \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-03-14 <int-̈e> learn Sand is what microprocessors are made of. GregorR invented it.
05:22:06 <zzo38> I played the Dungeons&Dragons game. I suggested using the properties of some molecules that will be different when mirrored, but another player thinks this mirror does not work at the molecular level.
05:24:45 <HackEgo> Grey is a common misspelling of Gey
05:24:54 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-05-31 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn Grey/Grey is a common misspelling of Gey
05:24:57 <HackEgo> Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
05:25:02 <zzo38> My character looked at the broken mirror and it still worked, and a duplicate of him appeared. That can be an advantage and a disadvantage; one thing it can cause is that now he can handle the shards safely. I did also think of other things to try, such as to see if it duplicates summoned creatures (my character can summon a dove or a raven, but nothing else).
05:25:29 <shachaf> I thought Gray was the Google death ray
05:25:58 <HackEgo> I know nothing about Gey, sir.
05:26:08 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-05-31 <oerjän> le/rn Gey/I know nothing about Gey, sir.
05:26:23 <oerjan> my memory, it is going...
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05:55:21 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, a friend of mine has a cat named Isis (after the god; named before the terrorists were a problem)
05:58:56 <oerjan> the cat or your friend?
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06:21:58 <shachaf> maybe test your bot in #esoteric-blah twh
06:22:43 <izalove> proposal: there must be a minimum ratio of comments/lines for a software to be called open source
06:23:10 <izalove> i'm not sure exactly what it is but it must be at least 1%
06:24:30 <izalove> i'm browsing through a repo on github with some very non obvious code and there's no comment at all
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06:28:23 <zzo38> I think it depends on the code
06:28:44 <zzo38> What program is it anyways?
06:29:33 <izalove> https://github.com/skarnet/execline/blob/master/src/libexecline/el_parse.c basically any file in this repo
06:32:25 <izalove> and i even tried to do my homework but git blame didn't help at all and neither did git log
06:33:07 <deltab> what are you trying to figure out?
06:34:35 <izalove> "hey let's look at how execline parses stuff" and there's a huge table of binary data in it
06:34:56 <izalove> imho that doesn't qualify as open source
06:36:38 <pikhq> Eh, it's just an explicit FSM. Quite plausibly manually written.
06:37:01 <pikhq> Bit of work figuring out the exact state machine in question, but really not that bad.
06:37:32 <izalove> if you don't count the /* ISC license. */ comments, there are 24 comments in 4100+ lines
06:37:56 <pikhq> And it's helped out by each state being a bit mask describing the actions taken for each given state.
06:38:20 <pikhq> Could use some commenting, granted, but this really is not super deep and impenetrable.
06:38:57 <pikhq> (probably the comment most merited is one describing the FSM's transitions)
06:39:11 <shachaf> The GPL says: « “source code” for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.»
06:39:46 <deltab> doesn't say whose preference
06:39:57 <pikhq> Per the GPL a binary file would count as "source code" if you literally wrote the thing with a hex editor.
06:40:16 <shachaf> Right, which it probably should.
06:41:08 <zzo38> For a sufficiently short program it seems that you might do, and then it should not be too difficult to figure out either if you do intend to change it.
06:42:02 <zzo38> But if the program is short you also might just rewrite it anyways if you need to make a change, which might be easier anyways; understanding the code is different to modifying it.
06:44:56 <zzo38> In that file el_parse.c I probably would have included a comment above line 12 so that you might more easily to see which character of which class.
06:59:03 <izalove> http://www.geekherocomic.com/2009/02/11/everything-is-open-source-actually/index.html
07:19:22 <imode> so, I'm thinking of offering free computer repair and education at my local library. how bad of an idea do you think that is.
07:20:21 <imode> don't see anybody doing it around the area for less than $80/hr.
07:21:20 <imode> I'm already in a position of "fuck you". it might be fun.
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08:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> I think I discovered a new problem with the ontological argument!
08:22:01 <shachaf> This argument is irrefutable: http://agreatercourage.blogspot.com/2011/11/argumentum-ornithologicum.html
08:24:41 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: Basically, the assumptions themselves aren't self-evident and can be counterargued
08:24:47 <oerjan> shachaf: us scandinavians find that argument a bit fugly hth
08:25:11 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, it's that you can reasonably reject "Something that exists is better than the same thing that doesn't exist"
08:25:16 <izalove> i can't even count to ten thus god exists
08:26:16 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: what makes you believe that is new criticism? out of interest
08:26:17 <hppavilion[1]> Example: The harry potter books are great. However, if any of that stuff actually happened, it'd be sad and have mass death involved. I conclude that Harry Potter is better on paper than in the real world.
08:26:38 <imode> hppavilion[1]: right now I'm financially set for a long, long time, and nobody offers free computer repair around the area... so I figure offering a public service might be nice.
08:27:06 <hppavilion[1]> imode: You wouldn't happen to be Elon Musk or something, would you?
08:27:20 <imode> nope, just a guy who's worked enough.
08:27:46 <imode> free computer repair and education are something sorely lacking.
08:27:55 <shachaf> oerjan: the rhythm doesn't translate to norwegian very well. the argument is much better scanned in avian hth
08:28:06 <hppavilion[1]> imode: Does 'financially set' include disasters, like cancer or getting in a nasty car accident and needing extensive long-term medical care?
08:28:40 <imode> hppavilion[1]: currently unemployed by choice and living off of funds from a couple years of working in tech.
08:29:44 <hppavilion[1]> imode: But if it's practical, then it's a noble enough cause that I say go for it
08:29:52 <imode> I worry about liability.
08:30:08 <imode> probably need some form of disclaimer or insurance.
08:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> imode: To be clear, you are *qualified* to repair computers, correct?
08:31:04 <imode> been a system administrator for 8 years. was a software engineer prior. hardware engineer even more prior.
08:31:15 <izalove> just grab a wrench and you're qualified for computer repair
08:31:47 <imode> back then I reflowed boards, sold custom addons and carts.
08:31:59 <imode> these days it's easy.
08:32:28 <hppavilion[1]> imode: You're qualified. Even if you screw up, you're still doing it for free, so...
08:32:44 <izalove> http://www.electronicproducts.com/Hardware/Components/These_stock_images_of_people_39_fixing_39_computers_are_so_wrong_they_ll_give_you_physical_pain.aspx
08:33:04 <imode> if I wanted to make money I'd charge a flat rate of $10.
08:34:19 <imode> computing education is also something that'll be useful. people come in with questions saying "I can't do this" or "How do I do that?" or "how does this work?"
08:34:38 <imode> at best I'm experienced. at worst I'm a relay for google.
08:34:52 <izalove> computing education will end up in ms office support
08:35:15 <imode> it always ends with me printing a reference sheet. I never hear from them again.
08:35:23 <imode> apart from the occasional thanks.
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08:41:15 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e int-̈e ais52̈3 oerjän ellioẗt shachäf
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08:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> The addition to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck did absolutely NOTHING
08:54:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hppavilion1 * moved [[D2]] to [[User:TuxCrafting/D2]]: Page is literally 2 sentences with a link for another braining BF derivative. Insufficient for its own page.
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09:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Oddmartian2/Wikipedia!_the_Musical is... a thing... that exists
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11:27:20 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it so he'd have something to drink his coffee out of.
11:27:33 <Taneb> Fun fact: I only drink my coffee out of a torus
11:29:38 <\oren\> I have a mug with a different homotopy group
11:30:23 <\oren\> specifically, the second homotopy group
11:30:34 <\oren\> a pity that the second hole is in the bottom
11:30:50 <Taneb> Second fun fact: I only drink coffee out of a sphere
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12:59:30 <lynn> 07:29 <izalove> https://github.com/skarnet/execline/blob/master/src/libexecline/el_parse.c basically any file in this repo
12:59:39 <lynn> That reminds me of that one NES emulator
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13:00:02 <lynn> http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/kuvat/programming_examples/nesemu1/nesemu1.cc /* Decode address operand */
13:01:49 <lynn> What part of "#define t(s,code) { enum { i=o8m & (s[o8]>90 ? (130+" (),-089<>?BCFGHJLSVWZ[^hlmnxy|}"[s[o8]-94]) : (s[o8]-" (("[s[o8]/39])) }; if(i) { code; } }" don't you understand, iza??
13:03:55 <izalove> actually i can steal some of their tricks
13:04:42 <izalove> o(C0)o(C8)o(D0)o(D8)o(E0)o(E8)o(F0)o(F8) o(100)
13:05:13 <izalove> o(00)o(08)o(10)o(18)o(20)o(28)o(30)o(38)
13:05:16 <izalove> o(40)o(48)o(50)o(58)o(60)o(68)o(70)o(78)
13:05:18 <izalove> o(80)o(88)o(90)o(98)o(A0)o(A8)o(B0)o(B8)
13:05:20 <izalove> o(C0)o(C8)o(D0)o(D8)o(E0)o(E8)o(F0)o(F8) o(100)
13:06:11 <lynn> That bit is so strange
13:06:49 <izalove> Trademarks are owned by their respective owners. Lawyers love tautologies.
13:07:35 <lynn> You can watch it be "created" live here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y71lli8MS8s
13:08:10 <lynn> Yeah, there's lots of C++11 features in here
13:08:33 <izalove> then why do they use enums to ensure compile time evaluation?
13:08:59 <lynn> (1:33 is so mesmerising I love it)
13:09:46 <int-e> izalove: so do some book authors ("Winter is coming" -- really? tell me more!)
13:10:45 <izalove> is that a small super mario in the title bar?
13:11:11 <lynn> It is. That's Bisqwit's own DOS text editor
13:16:37 <int-e> izalove: If that wasn't tautological enough: The same author has written about the next book in that series, "It will be done when it's done."
13:17:11 <izalove> i need a whole book of these
13:17:41 <int-e> @google "the book of tautologies"
13:17:49 <int-e> (it was worth a shot)
13:17:53 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
13:27:50 * boily tries to find somebody else to pass off as fungot...
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13:41:35 <HackEgo> Sand is what microprocessors are made of. Taneb invented it.
13:41:57 <HackEgo> Fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
13:42:29 <boily> `` sed -i 's/fault/Fault' wisdom/segmentation*
13:42:31 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 13: unterminated `s' command
13:43:31 <boily> `` sed -i 's/fault/Fault/' wisdom/segmentation*
13:44:15 <boily> `` sed -i 's/seg/Seg/' wisdom/segmentation*
13:47:19 <HackEgo> 1276) <Phantom_Hoover> man i just realised esolangs are subject to the inverse wadler's law <Phantom_Hoover> nobody ever cares about lexical syntax, let alone comments
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14:03:02 <fizzie> Hm. Instead of just restarting fungot, I should maybe try to see where it's gotten stuck up.
14:03:29 <fizzie> Because occasionally it just quits when a read fails, but more often it's just unresponsive.
14:04:40 <fizzie> I don't even have gdb installed on the box. :/
14:06:32 <boily> ♪ DING ♪ quotes updated in the PDF!
14:06:45 <boily> izalove: izellove! good news! your quote is now formatted!
14:06:59 <boily> fizzie: you can gdb fungot???
14:07:22 <fizzie> You can gdb cfunge, on which a fungot is running.
14:08:33 <fizzie> Wow, I've even got debugging symbols in here. It seems to be in a blocking sendmsg call in finger_SOCK_receive.
14:09:22 <fizzie> Why is there a sendmsg in receive?
14:09:48 <fizzie> There isn't one in the sources.
14:12:38 <fizzie> There's a "call recv" in finger_SOCK_receive which is what called it, but according to backtrace, execution is in "sendmsg () at ../sysdeps/unix/syscall-template.S:83".
14:13:46 <boily> so is it a send, or a recv?
14:14:09 <fizzie> I think I might've just updated the C library (including the libc6-dbg package) since starting fungot for the last time.
14:14:52 <fizzie> Because if I disassemble the libc code, it's at "mov $0x2d,%eax; syscall" and 0x2d == 45 -> sys_recvfrom.
14:15:33 <fizzie> Which makes more sense. Though I'm not sure this helped much -- looks like a recv call that's blocking forever, which is odd.
14:17:25 <fizzie> It's reading from fd 3, and /proc/5746/fd/3 is a socket.
14:18:37 <boily> can you artificially write to that socket and see what happens? this looks like a spurious "floating" recv that shouldn't have been called, and is expecting data that will never be.
14:19:13 <fizzie> It's a state-"ESTABLISHED" TCP socket to 193.10.255.100:6667, which I presume is freenode.
14:20:34 <fizzie> That's pretty odd. I would expect that TCP connection to eventually go away if nothing's happening.
14:20:47 <boily> freenode.net resolves to 104.24.25.39 from here, and nothing listens on :80 for 193.10.255.100...
14:21:00 <fizzie> I did say :6667, you know.
14:21:07 <fizzie> I wouldn't expect the actual IRC servers to listen to :80.
14:21:45 <fizzie> Anyway, I can't use DNS names with fungot -- 193.10.255.100 is wolfe.freenode.net.
14:24:51 <fizzie> Hmm. I've never thought of it, but I guess it's possible the TCP stack works so that if you only ever read from a socket, the connection can stay forever in 'ESTABLISHED' mode if the other end just forgets about the connection (instead of sending FIN or RST).
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14:29:48 <fizzie> If I call write() on the socket from GDB, I wonder if that unstucks it.
14:32:36 <fizzie> Hm. call write(3, "PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\r\n", 23) in gdb returned EFAULT. Maybe it doesn't like string literals.
14:34:15 <fizzie> Everything seems to do that. Strange.
14:34:26 <fizzie> I think I need breakfast to figure this out.
14:40:00 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Sun Oct 23 14:39:59 2016
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14:47:14 <fizzie> boily: Look, it's Sunday.
14:47:45 <int-e> `welcome TuxCrafting
14:47:46 <HackEgo> TuxCrafting: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:49:43 <boily> fizzie: a fine time for breakfast.
14:51:48 <fizzie> I'll just try this again once I have the matching version of glibc for the debugging info, it's too confusing otherwise.
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14:52:16 <fizzie> In the meanwhile, I think I had HackEgo things to try.
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14:53:59 <boily> fungot: fungellot!
14:54:00 <fungot> boily: it's just something gregor would have to be?' ' mul?' ' static' with neither rhyme nor reason is a sure sign of unclear thinking, and
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14:57:37 <boily> `relcome TuxCrafting
14:57:39 <HackEgo> TuxCrafting: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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15:00:53 <HackEgo> bin/autowelcome \ bin/elcome \ bin/relcome \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/velcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/Welcome
15:01:02 <boily> `rwelcome TuxCrafting
15:01:03 <HackEgo> TuxCrafting: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:01:20 <boily> `velcome TuxCrafting
15:01:21 <HackEgo> TuxCrafting: Velcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our viki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:02:07 <boily> there were more, or less, depending on whom you ask.
15:14:13 <fizzie> @tell oerjan The revert-file-additions thing was more subtle than I thought.
15:14:39 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Turns out "hg revert" *does* remove (tracked) files that did not exist in the revision to revert to. The problem is that it *removes* them instead of *deleting* them.
15:14:53 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Mercurial has both "deleted" (doesn't exist but is still tracked) and "removed" (doesn't exist and is no longer tracked) states for a file.
15:15:17 <fizzie> @tell oerjan As far as I can tell, the transact code wasn't expecting anything to be "removed" (because commands in the sandbox can't), so it only checked for deleted file in the status and never made a commit if the only change was files having been "removed" (like after a `revert of adding a file).
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15:15:42 <fizzie> @tell oerjan So after a `revert of a file addition, the repository was left in an inconsistent state, and the next command that caused a commit inadvertently restored the removed file when it cleaned up the state for the second run.
15:16:39 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I think it doesn't hurt to just include removed files in the "commit or not?" check as well, so I'll propose that.
15:17:34 <fizzie> (Although I do wonder why it was originally restricted to -umad instead of the default, which does include removals as well.)
15:19:29 <boily> @tell oerjan that's a lot of @tell oerjans!
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15:20:38 <lambdabot> error: Data constructor not in scope: Quiterror:
15:20:38 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope: PARASITE :: t0 -> [a]error: Data construc...
15:21:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘where’
15:22:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘where’
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16:12:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Coates * New user account
16:22:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50033&oldid=50029 * Coates * (+176) Added Coates
16:23:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50034&oldid=43592 * Coates * (+90) Added another interpreter
16:25:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
16:25:34 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
16:25:42 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
16:25:42 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
16:25:49 <lambdabot> slap <nick>. Slap someone amusingly.
16:26:13 <lambdabot> pretty <expr>. Display haskell code in a pretty-printed manner
16:26:25 <lambdabot> @dice <expr>. Throw random dice. <expr> is of the form 3d6+2.
16:26:32 <lambdabot> unlambda <expr>. Evaluate an unlambda expression
16:26:49 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
16:26:55 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:28:05 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ -r * \ share \ src \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
16:30:42 <HackEgo> File: `-r *' \ Size: 0 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 1024 regular empty file \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 664677 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2016-10-12 00:16:16.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2016-10-12 00:16:15.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2016-10-12 00:16:15.000000000 +00
16:35:41 <fizzie> @tell oerjan btw fyi https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-requests/5 hth hand
16:36:54 <fizzie> There's a non-visible character added by HackEgo in front of messages that start with non-letters, to stop that sort of thing.
16:37:00 <fizzie> (Well, mostly to stop botloops.)
16:37:23 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+0040 COMMERCIAL AT] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S]
16:38:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Coates]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50035 * Coates * (+95) Created page with "Hi there! I am Coates, a young programmer and musician. C is my favourite programming language."
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16:40:28 <lambdabot> Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block?
16:40:42 <lambdabot> run <expr>. You have Haskell, 3 seconds and no IO. Go nuts!
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16:41:17 <myname> there was this weird function to actually print a string
16:41:33 <myname> i can't remember 'cause i never need it
16:41:35 <TuxCrafting> the function to print a string is putStrLn but it don't work :/
16:41:49 <fizzie> > text "foo" -- didn't this used to work at some point?
16:41:57 <fizzie> At least now there's a space.
16:42:14 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: printString :: [Char] -> t
16:42:24 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character 'h'
16:42:36 <fizzie> It doesn't exactly print a string, more like makes a thing that gets outputted without extra quotes.
16:43:31 <ais523> I'm vaguely considering wrting my own init system
16:43:50 <ais523> on the basis that sysvinit is lacking features that most OSes care about nowadays, and most of the others are instane
16:44:17 <ais523> I probably won't get around to it ever but am nonetheless wondering if people have opinions about it
16:44:22 <\oren\> ais523: that sounds like a great idea
16:44:44 <\oren\> TuxCrafting: systemd has the problem that it takes over too much
16:45:10 <ais523> I would be hoping to replicate the functionality of systemd (so that it can replace systemd on systemd-based systems) but with a suite of programs, rather than a single init
16:46:04 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifkYccnfmK4
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17:21:44 <izalove> how do i tell github that i want to search for code that contains foo and not my_foo or foo_x?
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17:26:12 <ais523> izalove: I don't know with github specifically, but the normal syntaxes for that include «" foo "», «\bfoo\b», and «\<foo\>»
17:26:56 <izalove> " foo " can't work because i want to find foo(...) in code
17:27:06 <izalove> and github ignores backslashes afaics
17:28:47 <ais523> actually, I have a question on another topic
17:28:52 <ais523> the use I want for it is insane but there are sane uses too
17:29:39 <ais523> the question is, suppose someone is behind a NAT; is there something that they can do to allow other people to make inbound connections to them? (It's OK if this requires them to make a specific outbound connection of their own just before, but that outbound connection can't go to the person connecting inbound)
17:30:09 <ais523> I'm thinking about something on the lines of giving someone else the port that you're using for the return half of a TCP connection
17:31:16 <alercah> certainly if you had kernel access on the machine behind the NAT
17:31:39 <ais523> usermode would be helpful but I'm willing to accept something that needs kernel powers if necessary
17:32:02 <alercah> actually no wait, you could do it usermode assuming you're willing to make sacrifices
17:32:11 <ais523> what sort of sacrifices?
17:32:24 <alercah> inability (or at least difficulty) to see where the connection originated
17:32:42 <alercah> what you could do is have a relay at a fixed address outside the NAT
17:32:54 <alercah> and.... oh wait you could just set up a VPN
17:33:11 <ais523> oh, I want to do this without additional hardware outside the NAT, at least in terms of relaying the connection
17:33:22 <ais523> obviously you can do it using ssh port forwarding
17:33:23 <alercah> then I don't know if you can
17:33:56 <ais523> it probably depends on the details of the NAT
17:34:07 <alercah> exactly how it handles port opening
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17:40:49 <fizzie> There's a whole terminology related to that sort of thing; the strict/moderate/open terms used by I think some Microsoft things, and full-cone/restricted/port-restricted terms in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_address_translation#Methods_of_translation -- they all differ in terms of what sort of incoming packets they accept on the translated port (from everywhere, or from any port on ...
17:40:55 <fizzie> ... the same host as the original destination, or just from the original destination host:port).
17:41:16 <fizzie> In the most open case you can do that sort of thing -- open a connection somewhere, and publish the visible port for anyone else to connect to you.
17:46:02 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I'm not sure; I don't think you can listen on the visible port
17:46:11 <ais523> without closing the previous connection
17:46:47 <ais523> let me try this with UDP
17:48:13 <pikhq> ais523: On common consumer routers, you can use UPNP to temporarily request a port forward.
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17:52:28 <alercah> ais523: you can close the previous connection
17:52:42 <alercah> but if the router isn't paying attention, that's fine
17:52:48 <ais523> alercah: the close is visible to the router, does it leave the port assignment around for a while anyway?
17:52:53 <ais523> the purpose of UDP is that the close wouldn't be visible
17:53:24 <alercah> probably depends on the router
18:00:11 <ais523> ugh, these UDP tests are so awkward
18:00:17 <ais523> because this connection has a ton of packet loss for some reason
18:00:29 <ais523> and it's hard to tell whether I've done something wrong or whether the packet simply decided not to arrive
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18:11:21 <ais523> hmm, apparently UPNP+IGDP is sufficiently obscure that Wireshark hasn't heard of it
18:13:32 <pikhq> ais523: That smells, cause... Nearly all consumer routers support it, video game consoles for the past decade have used it, and every BitTorrent client uses it.
18:13:53 <ais523> yes, I'm wondering if maybe Wireshark has an outdated list
18:14:02 <pikhq> Could be. What version of Wireshark?
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18:14:41 <pikhq> That's outdated, but not *super* outdated.
18:14:44 <HackEgo> Vorpal: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:14:45 <ais523> we could really do with a `welcome-back, I guess
18:17:42 <ais523> I haven't seen you here for a while
18:18:39 <Vorpal> ais523: lets see if the rpi running the bouncer is more stable this time around. That RPi managed to corrupt external USB drive file systems several times (even when they were attached to a USB hub with separate power supply)
18:19:15 <ais523> hmm, this is not really helping out my irrational hatred of IRC bouncers
18:19:26 <ais523> even if it's probably the rpi that corrupted the bouncer rather than vice versa
18:19:46 <Vorpal> ais523: it managed to corrupt /. Not the bouncer as such
18:21:35 <ais523> currently I'm asking the channel for help with doing something that could be used for sensible purposes, but my purpose is ridiculous
18:21:45 <Vorpal> ais523: I wish I had the sort of rock solid industrial grade computers we use at work. That just run forever assuming there are no software bugs. I have never seen more reliable hardware.
18:21:49 <ais523> also there's an esolang contest which I should really be working on, I'm going to miss the deadline at this rate
18:21:55 <Vorpal> But then they cost about $50k...
18:22:08 <Vorpal> (and are not very powerful)
18:22:29 <fizzie> ais523: That's quite possibly true API-wise, but in theory there should be no reason why you couldn't do it. I mean, you can accept several incoming TCP connections on the same port, there's no reason why some of those couldn't be outgoing connections using it as a source port (as long as the protocol-host-port-host-port-5-tuples are unique).
18:22:50 <ais523> Vorpal: a set of 1000 redundant raspberry pis would be cheaper and possibly even more reliable
18:23:34 <Vorpal> ais523: true, but they wouldn't be IP66 and able to handle running salt water at high temperatures
18:24:09 <Vorpal> Not that I need that part
18:24:46 <ais523> you could perhaps distribute them geographically, in the hope that they wouldn't all be exposed to boiling salt water and/or liquid nitrogen simultaneously
18:25:31 <ais523> actually you'd think computers would run better at -80°C as it'd reduce issues with cooling
18:25:32 <Vorpal> also would require special software
18:25:47 <ais523> the world record for overclocking was set with the computer immersed in liquid nitrogen; it still managed to overheat and shut down
18:25:54 <ais523> but not before they'd managed to boot Windows and verify the clock speed
18:25:57 <Vorpal> True, but presumably some components might have issues with the thermal stresses
18:26:02 <ais523> unfortunately I haven't managed to find the article on it
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18:28:54 <Vorpal> Going to reboot the rpi, installed kernel update on it
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18:35:01 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kunO5ydDxvg
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18:36:55 <Vorpal> Wtf was going on there
18:37:07 <\oren\> argh I hate it when I want to show someone a funny video, but it's in japanese and they won't understand a word
18:38:03 <Zarutian> if it is a gameshow you dont need translation, they are hillarious those vids.
18:38:15 <Vorpal> Had to reset the password hm
18:38:22 <fizzie> ais523: Based on a quick check with socat, as long as you specify SO_REUSEADDR on both sockets, you can connect() somewhere with an automatically bound local port, and subsequently listen on that same port to receive connections.
18:38:27 <fizzie> ais523: I did "socat tcp4-listen:18080 stdout" + "socat stdin tcp4:localhost:18080,reuseaddr" to make one connection, netstat to find the source port for that (37576 in this case), and then "socat tcp4-listen:37576,reuseaddr stdout" + "socat stdin tcp4:localhost:37576", and I now have two independent connections in "opposite directions" sharing the same port.
18:38:32 <fizzie> (Not that there really is a direction once the connection has been established.)
18:39:28 <ais523> aha, I have to go lower level that netcat, but it's apparently doable
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18:46:01 <ais523> fizzie: well that doesn't seem to work through my NAT, unfortunately
18:46:10 <ais523> even though the IPs were the same
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18:46:54 <Vorpal> ais523: what are you trying to do?
18:47:06 <Vorpal> And yes I can imagine a NAT getting confused by this
18:47:35 <ais523> Vorpal: the ideal answer would be "open a port on the external side of the NAT that arbitrary people can connect to and get a connection to your machine"
18:47:53 <ais523> variations of that might also be better than nothing, though
18:47:59 <Vorpal> ais523: yes, called port forwarding usually, check your router settings
18:48:34 <ais523> right, I was hoping to do it entirely from the device inside the NAT by somehow fooling it into allowing more through than it should
18:48:44 <ais523> it seems that there are a ton of protocols designed for this already, though
18:49:48 <ais523> anyway, this is mostly just out of curiosity, as the use I have for it is fairly ridiculous when much more sensible ones exist
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18:51:24 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think many NATs do the "full cone" behavior, at least by default. I don't know if you can even do one with Linux netfilter.
18:51:35 <Vorpal> well this configuration file for znc is broken. It has the empty string channel set as sticky rejoin. And I can't fix it without stopping znc and fixing the file myself
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18:53:03 <ais523> aha, the reason it didn't work is probably that the ephemeral port number on the end of the connection outside the NAT doesn't match the (non-ephemeral) port number used for the original outbound connection
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18:54:01 <fizzie> ais523: I imagined your proposed solution involved connecting to a third party, which would tell your client what the externally visible source port was, so that it could then advertise that.
18:54:42 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's the direction I was experimenting with (I believe the existing implementation of this is called STUN)
18:55:35 <fizzie> I believe STUN's generally for UDP, which is more likely to work.
18:56:12 <Vorpal> Oh you are trying to do this for TCP? Good luck
18:56:13 <ais523> it's primarily for UDP but it has a TCP version too
18:56:29 <ais523> Vorpal: at this point I don't really care, although I was hoping to use it with HTTP
18:56:48 <ais523> and HTTP doesn't work well over UDP
18:57:04 <Vorpal> ais523: I would suggest just setting up port forwarding in the router instead
18:57:26 <Vorpal> Didn't google experiment with HTTP over UDP?
18:57:30 <Vorpal> QUICK or something like that
18:57:39 <Vorpal> Think it was a 4-letter name though
18:57:55 <fizzie> It's a little more than "experiment" now.
18:58:09 <Vorpal> fizzie: do you run HTTP/2 over it then I guess?
18:58:09 <fizzie> I would share numbers but they're probably confidential.
18:58:19 <ais523> Vorpal: the thing is, this isn't really intended for me, I already have a server with a publicly visible IP
18:58:31 <Vorpal> ais523: then what is the goal of it?
18:58:58 <ais523> to let arbitrary people broadcast their terminal sessions over HTTP
19:00:12 <pikhq> fizzie: I don't think it's *that* confidential. I mean, QUIC is in the wild, both clients and servers.
19:00:16 <Vorpal> ais523: well, there are "remote help" thingies
19:00:26 <pikhq> Well, okay, maybe some of the exact details of the Chrome telemetry are confidential.
19:00:49 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, I meant things like number of QUIC sessions and so on.
19:00:57 <Vorpal> how much better is the performance of quic compared to HTTP/2 over TCP?
19:01:05 <pikhq> At some point in time Google published that, I'm pretty sure.
19:01:18 <fizzie> We might've published a relative number.
19:01:22 <pikhq> ... But, then that'd be the particular publication that wouldn't be confidential.
19:01:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: IIRC, quite notably in cases of packet loss.
19:02:00 <pikhq> Because QUIC isn't subject to head-of-line blocking.
19:02:24 <ais523> well, probably best to get someone who doesn't work at Google to find the numbers, to avoid the risk of accidentally leaking something they shouldn't
19:02:26 <pikhq> IIRC connection setup is quicker as well?
19:02:37 <fizzie> There's a 0-RTT thing for the connection setup.
19:02:44 <pikhq> Yeah, that's what I thought.
19:02:50 <Vorpal> pikhq: oh the http level? ah
19:03:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: On the TCP level.
19:03:13 <fizzie> If you've connected to a server before, and are doing an idempotent request, there's a chance of just being able to start talking without any handshake packets at all.
19:03:28 <pikhq> It's not quite HTTP/2 over QUIC, it's more a protocol related to HTTP/2.
19:03:52 <Vorpal> pikhq: wouldn't you still need all the packets to arrive before you can interpret and display the data, (except for video data I guess)
19:04:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, but you can treat each stream independently.
19:04:19 <pikhq> Yes, *but* you don't need the packets to arrive for independent files on the HTTP session.
19:05:29 <ais523> really for something HTTP-like, you should just send a packet for each byte range simultaneously
19:05:49 <ais523> and have the recipient send out requests for the ones it didn't get
19:05:58 <ais523> you want to have each packet reliably but you don't care about the order you get them in
19:07:27 <fizzie> ais523: Well, that's not quite true. I mean, if you mean the all the subresources -- not all of them are needed before you can start rendering.
19:08:37 <fizzie> Not to mention that you want the client to be able to do flow control instead of filling their pipe; it might be that they want to do two things at a time, and not dedicate all their incoming bandwidth to your site.
19:11:43 <fizzie> HTTP/2 and QUIC both have rather explicit flow-control mechanisms built on WINDOW_UPDATE frames the client can use to essentially specify how many octets the other side is allowed to send before stopping to wait for some acks.
19:12:22 <Vorpal> While HTTP/2 is great in a lot of ways, it makes me sad you can no longer test the server using netcat.
19:12:23 <fizzie> s/the client/one side/
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19:13:07 <ais523> I wonder when browsers will stop supporting HTTP/0.8
19:13:20 <Vorpal> 0.8? Really? What is that one
19:13:50 <ais523> maybe I'm thinking of 0.9
19:14:04 <ais523> but basically it interprets the response as HTML if it doesn't have any headers
19:14:15 <fizzie> ais523: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/Blink-dev/OdKnpLlvVUo for Chrome.
19:14:38 <fizzie> "According to our numbers, about 0.01% of HTTP responses are HTTP/0.9 (that count excludes HTTP/2 and QUIC requests). Each week, about 1% of Chrome users see a response that's interpreted as HTTP/0.9. Note that these numbers likely overstate the prevalence of HTTP/0.9. If we get anything from a server in response to an HTTP/1.x request, and it's not HTTP/1.x, then we assume it's HTTP/0.9. ...
19:14:45 <fizzie> ... It could well be we're talking to a broken server, or a non-HTTP server."
19:15:17 <fizzie> I seem to recall they decided to only drop support of it when talking to non-default ports, because there were some routers that only did HTTP/0.9 on their web config interface.
19:15:39 <fizzie> And it's a rather bad experience if you no longer can use Chrome to configure your router.
19:16:07 <fizzie> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=624462 is actually a more concise summary.
19:16:22 <fizzie> "Revert HTTP/0.9 removal -- This broke compatibility with the Tenda D301 router, --"
19:16:28 <ais523> oh wow, I just looked up the standard way to make a TCP connection between two computers, both of which is behind a NAT
19:16:34 <ais523> and it's beautifully stupid
19:16:43 <fizzie> "It turns out that we can't just remove HTTP/0.9 support without breaking the interfaces of at least some home routers (Tenda D301), which we're not currently comfortable doing. So instead, we're going to reduce the cases where it's supported."
19:16:58 <Vorpal> fizzie: Hm, I think the major browser vendors together should put pressure on vendors by disabling certain legacy features in a coordinated way. That way they don't need to fear it will cause users to migrate to a different browser
19:17:22 <ais523> basically you guess which port the other person's NAT is going to assign to the connection, then both of you start the connection simultaneously
19:17:26 <Vorpal> Which seems to to be the main reason for why SSL downgrade attacks and such work
19:17:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: TLS version deprecation is I think already happening like that.
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19:17:44 <Vorpal> fizzie: really? news to me, but great
19:18:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: At least for some things. Mozilla, Chrome and Firefox coordinated dropping support for RC4, and I think everyone's agreed when to stop accepting SHA-1 certificates as well.
19:19:03 <Vorpal> fizzie: you need IE and Safari too
19:19:16 <fizzie> Er, I was going to include IE in the RC4 thing.
19:19:23 <fizzie> "Mozilla and Firefox" didn't really make much sense.
19:19:24 <Vorpal> rather than firefox twice?
19:20:01 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering how many simultaneous outbound connections you can make at once
19:20:21 <ais523> the idea is very simple: each end of the connection simultaneously tries to connect to /every/ port on the other end (sort-of like a portscan)
19:20:42 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering how many simultaneous outbound connections you can make at once <-- depends on your computer and probably on your NAT
19:20:58 <Vorpal> I remember reading that number for my router. Apparently it is something Asus advertises
19:21:03 <ais523> really we should all be on IPv6, without NAT, but the ISPs aren't cooperating
19:21:06 <Vorpal> Probably because it is a "pro-consumer" router
19:21:12 <Vorpal> rather than cheap crap
19:21:26 <Vorpal> ais523: yeah... why is that?
19:22:28 <ais523> I'm currently online via a very wireless router (connection to the computers inside the NAT is wireless, connection to the Internet outside the NAT is also wireless, and the thing can run on batteries so it doesn't always even need a power supply)
19:22:41 <ais523> but it's IPv4 only for some bizarre reason (at least the connection is; I don't know if the router itself knows how to IPv6)
19:23:22 <Vorpal> ais523: my router can definitely do IPv6. I can also ssh to it
19:23:26 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's because IPv6 migration would cost money to do (in terms of taking up engineering time etc.), and doesn't immediately increase profits.
19:24:05 <fizzie> My ISP does native IPv6, though.
19:24:47 <fizzie> But these are people who give a static /29 subnet of IPv4 addresses to consumer users (who ask) as well, so they're not exactly typical.
19:26:34 <fizzie> Some of the more mainstream ones in Finland have done IPv6 for the last few years, though.
19:26:52 <ais523> huh, I just discovered that my router knows my laptop's hostname
19:26:56 <fizzie> And the trend certainly points up.
19:27:01 <ais523> I wonder how it determined that, is it a field in DHCP or something?
19:27:03 <fizzie> https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html
19:27:09 <fizzie> There is a field for that in DHCP, yes.
19:27:33 <fizzie> 12% isn't *too* bad, to be fair.
19:27:43 <fizzie> It's approximately the same as Trump's chances to win, I believe.
19:28:46 <Vorpal> fizzie: https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=per-country-ipv6-adoption&tab=per-country-ipv6-adoption is interesting
19:28:51 <Vorpal> Sweden is quite behind
19:29:13 <fizzie> I see UK has jumped to 15%, which probably means somebody big here has done the migration since I last looked.
19:29:13 <Vorpal> Looks like US and Greece are way ahead
19:29:22 <Vorpal> Greece? That is a bit weird
19:30:34 <fizzie> There aren't generally that many "major" ISPs per country, so it's probably rather random as to how many of them do IPv6.
19:30:52 <fizzie> In the UK, it seems that Sky's doing it, which probably explains the 15% figure.
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19:31:36 <fizzie> https://corporate.sky.com/media-centre/news-page/2016/sky-completes-roll-out-of-ipv6-becoming-the-first-major-uk-internet-provider-to-future-proof-its-service-for-customers
19:31:43 <fizzie> September 6th, that's very recent.
19:32:09 <fizzie> "Each customer is provided with a /56 prefix, that can support up to 256 networks within the home." That's not too shabby.
19:32:19 <Vorpal> yeah, that is reasonable
19:33:05 <Vorpal> fizzie: I think SiXXS went overboard with my tunnel. I have a /48. That is silly huge.
19:43:17 <fizzie> Personally I find the "no subnets smaller than /64" thing a little odd.
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19:53:49 <Vorpal> fizzie: well, it is due to how the stateless autoconfiguration works
19:54:04 <Vorpal> where you basically use the network prefix followed by your MAC
19:57:18 <fizzie> 48 bits would've been enough for *that*.
20:00:21 <Vorpal> I belive wifi uses 64-bit MACs?
20:02:26 <int-e> we'll know when git grows a hg fs backend
20:02:57 <Vorpal> "The IEEE has a target lifetime of 100 years for applications using MAC-48 space, but encourages adoption of EUI-64s instead."
20:03:27 <Vorpal> fizzie: looks like that is why it is 64 bits
20:04:53 <fizzie> I think I remember seeing a VPS provider giving you a discount for an IPv6-only host.
20:04:58 <fizzie> Maybe not quite yet enough for general-purpose use, but I guess for some more backendy stuff.
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20:11:27 <int-e> the /56 is suggested by RFC 6177 (BCP 157)
20:13:53 <Vorpal> Seems reasonable as well
20:14:25 <Vorpal> A /48 is unreasonably large though I think
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20:41:45 <HackEgo> Cale: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:51:10 <ais523> ugh, I really need to work on my CALESYTA entry more
20:51:30 <ais523> I /think/ I've worked out how to write a hello world, at least in terms of what order to write the commands in
20:51:34 <ais523> but I need a working interp to test
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21:51:05 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. No es tan cluecless.
21:51:15 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
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22:02:36 <hppavilion[1]> `learn A metronome is an ancient and highly sophisticated instrument typically used in the player variety in conjunction with another, simpler instrument. hppavilion[1] is learning to play one. Taneb invented parts of it at regular intervals.
22:02:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'metronome': A metronome is an ancient and highly sophisticated instrument typically used in the player variety in conjunction with another, simpler instrument. hppavilion[1] is learning to play one. Taneb invented parts of it at regular intervals.
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22:51:03 <fizzie> fungot: How do you like it? https://zem.fi/tmp/fungotshirt.jpg
22:51:04 <fungot> fizzie: 1 cakeprophet: ps ( thread-id 5)) `(begin ( pp ,a) `(pp ,a))
22:51:19 <fizzie> Speechless, huh? I understand.
22:54:00 <shachaf> fungot must be disgusted looking at fungot innards like that.
22:54:00 <fungot> shachaf: to prove that ( in scheme) but it would be really, really small initrd that would create an awesome language of their own
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00:06:10 <lynn> fizzie: I'm speechless
00:07:07 <lynn> I like it. Have you worn this in public?! I hope so
00:08:22 <izalove> something summoned a demon with my terminal while i was afk http://i.imgur.com/9YxarEH.png
00:08:23 <fizzie> For the last few weeks it's actually been waiting for me to take that photo; now it's going to the wash, and *then* I'll be wearing it in public.
00:09:10 <myname> itmakes me want to make something big in an esolang to print it on a shirt
00:10:31 <fizzie> I thought about the flowchart version of fungot, but it wouldn't've been readable, unlike this snippet.
00:10:31 <fungot> fizzie: and unless you sleep the disk during most of holidays and weekends, zurich during weekdays. :) there were some differences with structs at least
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00:15:50 <shachaf> fizzie can tell when people are speechless
00:16:16 <shachaf> it's part of speech recognition
00:17:07 <myname> what's the flowchart cersion?
00:19:06 <fizzie> myname: https://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png (or remove "small" for a 5x larger version where you can actually read the labels)
00:19:06 <fungot> fizzie: i love the internets.
00:19:12 <fizzie> fungot: I know, right.
00:19:13 <fungot> fizzie: configure.ac is *not* up-to-date in cvs. what you say
00:19:40 <myname> so... what should i write with which language to put it on a shirt?
00:20:02 <fizzie> (I'm pleasantly surprised that thing still exists; my user account died long ago, and I couldn't find a local copy anywhere.)
00:20:09 <ais523> fizzie: I take it the shirt isn't all of fungot, just a representative sample?
00:20:09 <fungot> ais523: are you asking stupid things about option one is if you had 0, your input wouldn't work, it'd have waited until now :) thanks
00:20:26 <fizzie> ais523: It's only the babble generation part, right.
00:20:43 <ais523> minus the actual babble dictionaries
00:21:01 <ais523> although I see an "ELIF" which is probably a fingerprint load
00:21:01 <fizzie> Yes, those are separate files.
00:21:12 <ais523> so I guess it's loading them from files
00:21:38 <fizzie> If you can call it "loading". It's actually mostly just seeking around the files, reading a few bytes here and there.
00:21:50 <fizzie> I didn't want to get the memory bloat of loading them all to fungespace.
00:22:57 <fizzie> (The "irc" style is 195659600 bytes of n-gram trees and 1042812 bytes of a token-index-to-string map.)
00:23:32 <fizzie> The lower part is a binary search, I think.
00:23:41 <fizzie> I don't exactly remember what it is a binary search *of*.
00:24:30 <fizzie> (But the "cur>" and "cur<" and "match" comments do suggest it's looking for something.)
00:26:48 <myname> http://esolangs.org/w/images/2/25/Ziim_%E2%80%94_Add.png rotated 90 degrees would be an interesting motive
00:27:23 <ais523> clearly we need an mmap fingerprint
00:29:56 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
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00:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> It appears metasepia isn't on atm. Is e pretty much gone?
00:31:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Lambdabot hogs prefixes so much... it's kind of annoying
00:32:18 <ais523> metasepia isn't here right now
00:32:50 <fizzie> Last seen 2014-09-10 in my logs.
00:32:56 <fizzie> That's a while ago already.
00:33:11 <boily> hppavellon[1]! I ought to revive it >_>'...
00:33:25 <boily> his523. I know the hiatus is long. sorry.
00:33:32 <boily> fizziello. that's about right v_v
00:33:50 <lambdabot> EGLL 232320Z AUTO 04004KT 9999 NCD 10/06 Q1011 NOSIG
00:33:52 * boily *THWACKS* hppavilion[1] away from the prefix
00:34:14 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Soon, you will be able to thwack people via my bot and have it be meaningful.
00:34:49 <boily> as long as you use something else than ~. afaik, nobody has & yet.
00:35:03 <boily> or you can use ˝ if you want.
00:35:34 <boily> (although I believe it'd be fittinger if b_jonas used it. the wob_jonas bot, the wobbot.)
00:35:48 <myname> wasn't there a language named tube or something similar?
00:36:01 <lambdabot> CYUL 232300Z 26015G26KT 15SM FEW250 09/M03 A2963 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP037
00:37:10 <myname> the search function is stupid
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00:40:19 <\oren\> we've always been at war with Eastasia
00:40:33 <boily> he\\oren\. no we haven't.
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00:41:26 <myname> too bad, tubes is underspecified
00:41:53 <\oren\> shut up oldthinker. you must bellyfeel ingsoc
00:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: My bot is supposed to have realname OceanaJones
00:42:04 * boily looks at hppavilion[1]. very intently looks. feel yourself being looked at.
00:42:36 <hppavilion[1]> I called a method of the argument on the object, rather than the reverse
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00:43:58 <advbot> hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@93-231-58-66.gci.net: Message acknowledged
00:44:24 <boily> \oren\: I'm not wearing any ingsocks, and my bellyfeel is full of phở. Eurasia is our ally.
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00:45:22 * boily is still glaring at hppavilion[1]. "'tis my prefix, you vile heathen! I shall virtually shake my fist at you! In your approximate direction!"
00:45:37 <\oren\> have the walloons accepted our trade agreement yet?
00:46:12 <boily> I don't think so...
00:46:54 <boily> «Le Canada et l'Union européenne ont donné à la Belgique jusqu'à lundi soir pour dire si elle soutient ou non l'accord de libre-échange, sinon la cérémonie de signature sera annulée, selon une source de l'agence Reuters.» ← It won't happen until tomorrow night.
00:56:20 <HackEgo> unréliable//unréliable is French for «peu fiable».
00:56:34 <myname> sooo... what can you program with like 3 different characters to output
00:56:53 <myname> i thought about game of life, but i don't know if this isn't lver the top
00:59:19 <hppavilion[1]> boily: If you can propose an unterrible prefix, I will accept it. Note that & is bad because it's overused.
01:00:10 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Multi-symbol prefixes are acceptable- will metasepia trigger on '~~'?
01:01:09 <boily> hppavilion[1]: ¤, ±, ¶, §, ¢ are all interesting.
01:01:16 <boily> maybe. it's been a long time...
01:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Perhaps, but I want something that can be done on a normal keyboard.
01:02:53 <boily> I didn't suggest ⅞ nor Ω.
01:03:22 <ais523> perfectly standard keyboard here
01:03:28 <ais523> I don't know how to type that capital omega though
01:03:39 <hppavilion[1]> Sure, I can type ¢, ¤, €, §, ±, ∓, ≥, ≤, ¿, ⸮, ‽, ⸘, ⟦, ⟧, ∨, |, ¦, ⦃, ⦄, ≈, ×, ⁂, ¡, ‰, ‱, ∧, 〔, 〕, 〈, and 〉on command from my keyboard
01:03:52 <shachaf> fizzie: So I heard there's a new Linux privilege escalation bug. What do you think of using it in HackEgo?
01:04:07 <boily> ais523: Canadien Multilingue Standard. it's very standard and sane!
01:04:29 <boily> ais523: ISO Level 5 + Shift + Q for the “Ω” hth
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01:04:52 <advbot> hppavilion[1]: Message acknowledged
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01:06:38 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm hoping it wouldn't account to much, because I don't think the root user is supposed to be able to do much in umlbox that a normal user can't.
01:06:55 <shachaf> I thought root access in UML was approximately the same as user access to the host?
01:07:28 <fizzie> Mmmaybe. I don't think it's supposed to be, but it's possible it's porous enough to be that.
01:07:51 <shachaf> Can't a root user install arbitrary kernel modules etc. in UML?
01:08:36 <\oren\> I have ❄ as the prefix for my bot
01:08:38 <fizzie> It's got CONFIG_MODULES=n.
01:08:48 <fizzie> Nobody can install arbitrary modules on *that*.
01:09:12 <ais523> well, the escalation bug allowed you to write to arbitrary cache pages
01:09:26 <ais523> the usual exploit is to get a copy of /usr/bin/su cached in memory, then overwrite it to do something else and execute it
01:09:37 <ais523> but maybe there's some exploit that escalates a different way
01:09:39 <boily> \oren\: did it snow in Ontario today?
01:09:57 <\oren\> yes, at least up where my grandparents live
01:10:06 <\oren\> not here in toronto tho
01:10:56 <\oren\> trying to fill up more gaps in my font now
01:11:18 <shachaf> fizzie: OK, so can we enable root access to HackEgo? twh
01:11:41 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
01:11:58 <boily> \oren\: are you planning on supporting brahmic scripts?
01:11:59 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
01:12:36 <\oren\> boily: maybe someday. I have Devanagari and Thai working already though
01:13:07 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIvDVhN5Lv4
01:14:09 <fizzie> shachaf: I guess the bug already did that? hth
01:16:43 <\oren\> ttp://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2742/index.htm <-- WTFFFFFF
01:17:10 <\oren\> in what universe is that a CIRCLED OPEN CENTRE EIGHT POINTED STAR
01:17:39 <\oren\> it's a cluster of 13 circles of various size!
01:19:05 <fizzie> That's not what it looks like in the actual Unicode code chart.
01:19:36 <FreeFull> Looks like they have the wrong default image
01:19:42 <FreeFull> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2742/browsertest.htm
01:19:56 <\oren\> yeah, luckily i cross reference this stuff
01:20:19 <FreeFull> Arial Unicode MS is the font with the weird symbol
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01:27:08 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBDq2xeed40
01:27:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 13m 19s ago: The revert-file-additions thing was more subtle than I thought.
01:27:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 12m 53s ago: Turns out "hg revert" *does* remove (tracked) files that did not exist in the revision to revert to. The problem is that it *removes* them instead of *deleting* them.
01:27:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 12m 39s ago: Mercurial has both "deleted" (doesn't exist but is still tracked) and "removed" (doesn't exist and is no longer tracked) states for a file.
01:27:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 12m 15s ago: As far as I can tell, the transact code wasn't expecting anything to be "removed" (because commands in the sandbox can't), so it only checked for deleted file in the
01:27:33 <lambdabot> status and never made a commit if the only change was files having been "removed" (like after a `revert of adding a file).
01:27:35 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 11m 50s ago: So after a `revert of a file addition, the repository was left in an inconsistent state, and the next command that caused a commit inadvertently restored the removed
01:27:37 <lambdabot> file when it cleaned up the state for the second run.
01:27:39 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 10m 53s ago: I think it doesn't hurt to just include removed files in the "commit or not?" check as well, so I'll propose that.
01:27:41 <lambdabot> boily said 10h 8m 3s ago: that's a lot of @tell oerjans!
01:27:43 <lambdabot> fizzie said 8h 51m 51s ago: btw fyi https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-requests/5 hth hand
01:27:54 <izalove> if only one could check these messages in query
01:28:37 <myname> i hate it when lambdabot annoys me in query for messages i already read somehow else
01:28:51 <oerjan> maybe this was a bad idea.
01:29:44 <shachaf> @tell izalove please send pooch pics twh
01:30:48 <izalove> https://rs391.pbsrc.com/albums/oo357/autobono/angrydog.jpg~c200
01:35:32 <oerjan> fizzie: that was indeed subtle.
01:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> What part of the IRC protocol to I use to check that a user is logged in?
01:39:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: to check that you're logged in or that someone else is?
01:40:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: WHOIS gives that info
01:40:17 <ais523> also note that nickserv is an extension to IRC, not an actual part of IRC, so it doesn't work the same way on every server
01:40:25 <ais523> on most servers, though, it's either whois or mode
01:40:29 <oerjan> may not be the least verbose method, since it gives much other info too
01:41:01 <ais523> some servers change the username, in which case /who would work
01:41:29 <oerjan> hm is the change of /whois to /whowas for a recently logged out user something the server does, or the client?
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01:41:55 <alercah> at the protocol level, you repeat the name to do a whowas
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01:42:28 <HackEgo> atehwa_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:42:44 <oerjan> alercah: oh? that does something else too ... gives idle time
01:43:05 <ais523> what happens if you give a second argument that doesn't match the first?
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01:43:47 <oerjan> ais523: then it's a server name
01:44:09 <oerjan> (assuming the raw protocol is the same as irssi's /whois there)
01:44:35 * oerjan has /wii aliased to that repetition. it may have been preset.
01:45:00 <shachaf> it may have been contributed by nintendo
01:46:34 <shachaf> ais523: That reminds me of a conversation yesterday about second derivatives : (U ⊗ U -> V). Apparently people always pass in the same argument twice?
01:47:43 <ais523> there are fewer practical uses for differentiating by two different variables
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01:48:12 <shachaf> I still don't know what it means for it to be a bilinear map. What happens if you vary just one argument?
01:49:33 <FreeFull> shachaf: If you vary just one argument, it behaves linearly
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01:54:44 <oerjan> shachaf: and that's the actual definition of bilinear hth
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01:55:58 <oerjan> what FreeFull said. sheesh.
01:58:20 <shachaf> I know that. But what does it actually do?
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02:04:56 <advbot> hppavilion[1]: Message acknowledged
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02:06:24 <FreeFull> Apparently matrix multiplication is an example of a bilinear map
02:08:09 <HackEgo> U+231B HOURGLASS \ UTF-8: e2 8c 9b UTF-16BE: 231b Decimal: ⌛ \ ⌛ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+23F3 HOURGLASS WITH FLOWING SAND \ UTF-8: e2 8f b3 UTF-16BE: 23f3 Decimal: ⏳ \ ⏳ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+29D6 WHITE HOURGLASS \ UTF-8: e2 a7 96 UTF-16BE: 29
02:08:35 -!- advbot has joined.
02:08:37 <HackEgo> U+2E9E CJK RADICAL DEATH \ UTF-8: e2 ba 9e UTF-16BE: 2e9e Decimal: ⺞ \ ⺞ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2F4D KANGXI RADICAL DEATH \ UTF-8: e2 bd 8d UTF-16BE: 2f4d Decimal: ⽍ \ ⽍ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Decomposition: <compat> 6B79
02:09:06 <shachaf> what happened to #esoteric-blah
02:10:27 <oerjan> FreeFull: very common in china back in the 60s hth
02:11:11 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It was working more and I came to demonstrate it; changing the channel back now
02:11:19 <oerjan> \oren\ has an epiphany. we're doomed.
02:11:45 <\oren\> oerjan: nah I just realized my font doesn't cover
02:12:00 <\oren\> ANY of the kangzi radical characters
02:12:11 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, the process was terminated without disconnecting...
02:12:37 <shachaf> oerjan: unionized radical death, no doubt
02:12:47 <\oren\> oerjan: in pinyin x is sort of a sh sound hth
02:13:13 <HackEgo> 713) <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL
02:13:16 <HackEgo> 795) <olsner> it's not completely obvious since the displayed nick lengths are rounded to the closest integer
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02:13:29 <HackEgo> 144) <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
02:13:29 <HackEgo> 432) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
02:13:29 <HackEgo> 931) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
02:14:48 <oerjan> \oren\: yes. but not the same sound as sh.
02:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Pretty sure 'x' in pinyin is 'zh' in english
02:15:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Which isn't helpful because we almost never use 'zh'- but it's voiced 'sh')
02:15:11 <\oren\> so is it confirmed that exo mars has bcome more endo-mars?
02:16:34 <hppavilion[1]> The latin transcription of Chinese has always bugged me
02:16:35 <HackEgo> 1058) <kmc> Bike: i think it's a fermented fish product? <kmc> either that or it means "welcome" in finnish
02:16:41 <zzo38> At what time of day are Muslim call of prayer supposed to be?
02:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> Chinese uses entirely symbolic writing, with no influence from Rome
02:17:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i believe x in pinyin is not voiced and neither is sh hth
02:17:53 <hppavilion[1]> So why aren't the symbols used in transcription the symbols that MAKE those noises?
02:18:15 <hppavilion[1]> Who decided "OK, so when they make the [tʃ] sound, we'll write a 'Q'"
02:18:25 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah_times
02:19:14 <\oren\> dawn, midday, afternoon, sunset, midnight
02:21:18 <hppavilion[1]> So in UTC+3, for example, you do everything 3 hours early.
02:21:34 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: they were just like "well, we don't need this crappy rounded k sound, so thets use it for a more different ch."
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02:23:11 <\oren\> and "we never have a stupid ks consonant cluster, so we can just use x for something else"
02:24:30 <hppavilion[1]> Though, Sunnis use UTC1 whereas the more orthodox Shias use UTC0, so prayer times vary due to leap seconds.
02:24:55 <FreeFull> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/phonemes
02:25:01 <FreeFull> Latest smbc comic, surprisingly relevant
02:26:46 <fizzie> "WHOIS foo foo" is not the same thing as WHOWAS at all. The WHOIS syntax is "WHOIS [<target>] <nick>[,...]" and "WHOIS foo foo" is just a WHOIS command that's sent to a specific server. There is an entirely separate WHOWAS message. (RFC 2812, sections 3.6.2 and 3.6.3.)
02:26:55 * hppavilion[1] wishes that the prayer UTC divide was a real thing
02:27:18 <iovoid> Is there a way to make more Wiki Captchas to test?
02:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> The Golden Age of Islam, which is when they discovered a shitton of math and such, was (this is true, not a joke) driven by them trying to figure out what goddamn direction it is to Mecca
02:28:19 <fizzie> (The optional <target> part is also a server; clients just turn "/whois foo foo" into "WHOIS <server of foo> foo", because sending the WHOIS to the server foo is directly connected to returns more information.)
02:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> One can only imagine a man in a turban in the desert with a camel getting a stick and scrawling non-euclidean geometry, vector calculus, and a proof that P ⊃ NP
02:29:21 <zzo38> Yes, and in my opinion that is a silly way to continue such tradition. If the tradition doesn't work you can ignore it
02:30:07 <zzo38> It is good to figure out various math, but that reason doesn't make much sense
02:30:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: chinese has two parallel series of sh-like sounds. one of the series is written as sh, zh, ch. the other has to use some other representation, and they happened to choose x, j, q. not sure if i remembered the order right.
02:30:32 <zzo38> Especially in space, where apparently people have come up with two different systems to do
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02:31:05 <oerjan> (also i just discovered i've somehow got their pronunciation difference about backwards.)
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02:32:14 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: And it ended when they figured it out?
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02:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm waiting for someone to comment on the last part of his frustrated scrawling
02:32:54 <FreeFull> "Ok guys, the algebra says Mecca is this way"
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02:33:20 <zzo38> The word "algebra" does come from Arabic
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02:33:44 <FreeFull> The word "alcohol" does too, and Muslims aren't meant to drink it..
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02:34:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure it's greek, though they may be related I suppose...
02:35:53 <zzo38> I don't know what would "alcohol" be, but I think "algebra" is Arabic.
02:36:02 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: It comes from Arabic
02:36:32 <FreeFull> Although it got mutated along the way
02:37:09 <zzo38> Wiktionary says from Arabic
02:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> Or did the greeks get the word, then decide it HAS to be greeky and inflecty?
02:38:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Algebra definitely is, and I'm pretty sure it comes from the authorship being "Al Gebra" and the transcriber mistaking that for (or thinking it sounded better than) the name given
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02:39:05 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: In the word "alchemy", the "al" part came from Arabic, and the "chemy" ultimately from Greek
02:40:18 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So... did the 'chem' go from greek to arabic, Arabic created 'al chemy', and the greeks adopted 'alchemy' and used it to make 'alcohol'?
02:40:35 <oerjan> zzo38: the muslims sometimes _do_ adjust tradition, but only as much as necessary. e.g. not to starve when ramadan falls in norwegian midsummer.
02:41:41 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: greek -> arabic -> medieval latin -> old french
02:42:09 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: That "Gebra" thing is not true."-- from Arabic al jabr ("in vulgar pronunciation, al-jebr" [Klein]) "reunion of broken parts," as in computation, used 9c. by Baghdad mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi as the title of his famous treatise on equations ("Kitab al-Jabr w'al-Muqabala" "Rules of Reintegration and Reduction") --"
02:42:25 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: 'alcohol' was initially an alchemical term, before it became more widespread
02:42:28 <hppavilion[1]> (With this formula, I can turn the phoneme cluster [ɛmiː] into [oʊhɑːɫ]!)
02:42:40 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, OK. It may also depend on denomination too I suppose; it also happens with Christian denominations and Jewish and Pagan and Wiccan denominations and so on as well though
02:43:05 <zzo38> (This may be the reason for UTC1 vs UTC0)
02:43:07 <shachaf> zzo38: What if my denomination is dollar bills?
02:43:43 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So we were only a small change away from being taught Walmukob in schools?
02:44:08 <zzo38> shachaf: If they are US dollar bills (we don't use dollar bills in Canada) then it is done by the US laws for money I suppose
02:44:27 <zzo38> Yes, but I wanted to answer anyways
02:44:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure the Sunnis and the Shias don't debate over what time standard to use
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02:45:05 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: No, but the start of a month is variable from Arab country to Arab country.
02:45:11 <shachaf> zzo38: what, only dollar coins? that's a bit loonie hth
02:45:39 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it is, and that is how it is supposed to be
02:46:07 <shachaf> Coins are inconvenient. You should use only bills.
02:46:18 <shachaf> And also they should all be exactly the same size and color.
02:46:42 <pikhq> Bills are inconvenient. You should only use bitcoins.
02:46:48 <zzo38> Easter also may be different based on the Catholic or Orthodox they do it differently
02:46:51 <pikhq> But for convenience everyone should use the same wallet.
02:47:09 <ais523> it seems zzo38 has a similar reaction to jokes as me (to take them seriously in the hope of making the conversation more absurd)
02:47:30 <shachaf> ais523: Are you sure that's zzo38's motivation?
02:47:45 <ais523> shachaf: maybe not the motivation, but the reaction is similar even if the motivation is different
02:47:52 <pikhq> zzo38: The humorous thing is, it's not quite the same as that. The months are different in each Arab country because a month only starts when a full moon is observed. In that country. At the official observatory for that country.
02:47:57 <zzo38> shachaf: I prefer to use coins, and in Canadian also to have bills of different colours so that you can easily to know the difference
02:48:07 <shachaf> zzo38: Not if you're blind.
02:48:13 <pikhq> If a cloud's in the way, it never gets observed so the month doesn't start.
02:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Now that you mention it, I wonder when anchorage's large muslim community eats in the summer...
02:48:26 <shachaf> Do you like string diagrams?
02:48:35 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and coins help better with blind
02:49:00 <zzo38> But shouldn't we have ephemerides by these days?
02:49:23 <pikhq> zzo38: *Some* Arab countries use those instead, yes.
02:49:29 <shachaf> zzo38: How much are the small blind and big blind in Canadian poker?
02:49:35 <zzo38> ais523: I myself am not so sure.
02:49:47 <zzo38> (of my motivation)
02:49:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw unless you were _completely_ joking, you may be confusing algebra with algorithm. take another look at fizzie's explanation above...
02:50:18 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know of any game called "Canadian poker".
02:50:33 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Looked it up, Holy crap, some crazy people actually fast from sunrise to sunset up there.
02:50:42 <zzo38> Even so they will probably vary like with other poker games
02:51:18 <hppavilion[1]> (Does IV count as fasting? What about at the hospital?)
02:51:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you can break fast if you're ill hth
02:51:48 <shachaf> Does optimizing a computer program count as fasting it?
02:51:50 <oerjan> it's one of the official exceptions.
02:52:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Does that include if the muslim is rad (as in, "totally sick")?
02:52:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think being rad may be haram hth
02:52:38 <pikhq> Note that "sunrise" and "sunset" are timed based on being able to see the sun itself, not on seeing sunlight. And in Anchorage you don't ever get an actual lack of sunset.
02:52:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Can some of your virgins be revoked in extenuating circumstances?
02:52:57 <pikhq> Instead, you get sunlight 24 hour but the sun is below the horizon for part of the day.
02:53:32 <pikhq> What Muslim scholars suggest is, if following local time for Ramadan is impractical, use the time in Mecca.
02:54:04 <zzo38> Isn't that kind of like cheating?
02:54:29 <HackEgo> This sentence is just. Taneb invented it.
02:54:44 <ais523> zzo38: I think there were some fairly famous statements about how if the rules are impossible to follow, you can substitute something similar
02:54:44 <shachaf> Do you "invent" sentences?
02:54:55 <ais523> "wash yourself with sand" to someone complaining about the lack of water to wash with
02:54:58 <shachaf> I think you sentence people to things, but what do you do when you create the sentence itself?
02:55:17 <oerjan> pikhq: s/full moon/new moon/ way above, i think
02:55:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Considering the alternative would probably mean nobody following Ramadan (per the fact that medical conditions are permitted exemptions)... not really?
02:56:00 <shachaf> I think you assemble contraptions.
02:56:06 <Cale> shachaf: lol, your sentences were always there, you're just discovering them
02:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody may have done it before, perhaps several times, but you did it independently.
02:56:23 <shachaf> What do you think of string diagrams?
02:56:37 <ais523> sentences are crafted, I think
02:56:48 <shachaf> ais523: I'm talking about a judicial sentence.
02:56:50 <zzo38> pikhq: O, OK, I suppose it is better than nothing anyways. People should be allowed to follow their own religion themself, although it does help to have traditions and philosophy and so on and you can learn better from these things together with your own ideas
02:56:51 <Cale> I like them, though I don't know how useful they are in very complicated situation.
02:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: But you can (theoretically) write a program that will iterate over all english sentences
02:57:11 <ais523> shachaf: those are chosen, because there's typically only a small finite number of possibilities
02:57:15 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, crafting has to be uniform and rigid, something a machine can do without 10 years of AI research
02:57:16 <shachaf> Cale: Are there places where geometric intuition can go wrong?
02:57:20 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: like "Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo."
02:57:23 <shachaf> ais523: "This sentence is just. Taneb chose it."?
02:57:38 <pikhq> It would be a little amusing if the way that settled is everyone fasted until it ceased to be healthy to do so, though.
02:57:40 <ais523> shachaf: well Taneb inventing things is a #esoteric meme
02:57:47 <ais523> he can invent things that can't logically be invented
02:57:56 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
02:58:03 <pikhq> Which would be not very long, as the fast includes liquids.
02:58:07 <HackEgo> Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
02:58:42 <zzo38> One thing to do is to try to figure out the intention, I think. And then, see if it is good or not to you.
02:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> The components already existed, the rules to determine if it's allowed are set in stone (well, it's talc), and it may have been used before; you just put together the parts that make that particular sentence
02:58:56 <Cale> shachaf: I don't know about going wrong... but they're not terribly compact, and you end up wanting to express that one diagram is equal to another, which can be awkward if you have to do it a lot.
02:59:00 <zzo38> Blind faith is no good.
02:59:14 <Cale> shachaf: But for like, examining how the basic laws look and stuff, it's really nice.
02:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: You can't invent a sentence, but somebody did invent sentences in general, though likely accidentally hth
02:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> (The invention was changed over time to adjust the scope of permitted sentences)
02:59:52 <zzo38> (Whether you are Muslim, Chrisian, or atheist, either way is what I meant by my points made)
03:00:29 <Cale> Did Taneb invent the very notion of inventing things?
03:00:42 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
03:01:15 <shachaf> Hmm, that entry used to say that Taneb invented Tanebventions. But not anymore.
03:01:30 <shachaf> Does the judge administer a sentence, or do people do that after the judge's sentencing?
03:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Problem: Taneb never invents anything involving sex, but humans can make ANYTHING sexual.
03:01:55 <ais523> shachaf: he invented the sentence that describes Tanebventions
03:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's Greenspun's Third Theological Problem (regarding hell)
03:02:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, he invented a sentence iterating over a finite subset of tanebventions. That's different
03:02:23 <shachaf> ais523: Are you sure "this sentence" doesn't refer to the wisdom entry "this sentence"?
03:02:31 <HackEgo> This sentence is just. Taneb invented it.
03:02:42 <zzo38> How much you know of theological problems anyways?
03:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I know Greenspun's Third theological problems
03:03:03 <ais523> shachaf: I'm not 100% sure the entry actually refers to anything, given that it's mostly a joke entry
03:03:35 <zzo38> Do you know Greenspun's other theological problem?
03:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> And also the problem of evil (omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient -> ~evil anywhere), the problem of moving goalposts (god keeps getting farther away), and the obvious issue with God of the Gaps
03:04:41 <ais523> isn't Greenspun famous for not using contiguous numbers for things like laws?
03:05:02 <shachaf> Change-of-basis matrices have nonzero determinant. Taneb inverted them.
03:05:11 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Greenspun's Third Theological Problem is like Greenspun's Tenth Rule
03:05:25 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: my favourite description of the (fictional, probably) Computer from Paranoia is "it's omnipotent, but doesn't realise it; and it's not omniscient, but believes it is"
03:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> Except it wasn't even invented by Greenspun, I just made it up right now.
03:06:05 <ais523> this is a pretty fun combintion of properties to have for a character in a fictional universe
03:06:09 <zzo38> Yes, and I have other ideas about those things anyways. Such as, God doesn't keep getting farther away it is just our point of view to do so (although this statement also oversimplifies it a bit perhaps).
03:06:15 <ais523> and AFAICT doesn't contain any internal inconsistencies
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03:11:50 <hppavilion[1]> OK, where does WHOIS's output come out protocol-wise?
03:31:29 <imode> are there any number-base-agnostic programming languages?
03:31:40 <imode> s/programming/estoeric
03:31:51 <imode> s/estoeric/esoteric
03:32:12 <ais523> imode: does Radixal!!!! count?
03:32:24 <imode> dunno, I'll check.
03:32:28 <ais523> I mean, there are plenty of languages that don't decompose numbers into digits at all, but I assume that's not what you meant
03:32:53 <shachaf> There are plenty of languages that don't have numbers.
03:33:03 <imode> brainfuck for example is like... kind of unary.
03:33:30 <imode> C has a way of specifying hexadecimal or decimal literals.
03:40:36 <izalove> `` echo fibonacci | sed -e's/.*/. ./;x;s/.*/./p;x;:l' -e's/\(.*\) \(.*\)/\2 \1\2/;h;s/ .*//p;x;bl' | head -7
03:40:37 <HackEgo> . \ . \ .. \ ... \ ..... \ ........ \ .............
03:40:55 <izalove> does that count as a language without numbers?
03:40:57 <imode> sed never fails to amaze me.
03:41:13 <ais523> I wrote an interpreter for a TC language in it, I forget which offhand
03:41:21 * imode used to play sokoban in sed.
03:41:22 <izalove> i wrote a bf interpreter in sed
03:45:48 <izalove> `` echo pow2 | sed -e's/.*/./;:a' -e'p;s/.*/&&/;ba' | head -7
03:45:49 <HackEgo> . \ .. \ .... \ ........ \ ................ \ ................................ \ ................................................................
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03:53:26 <HackEgo> ratpuke: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:55:35 <ratpuke> You're old enough to have a daughter
03:57:42 <oerjan> that is true but i don't and it doesn't fit the meme hth
03:58:03 <oerjan> (technically i'm also old enough to have a granddaughter)
03:58:12 <ratpuke> Used to be a programmer am now a doctor nurse practitioner
03:58:22 <oerjan> wait, great granddaugher.
03:58:38 <oerjan> (the last one would require some creepiness)
03:58:56 <ratpuke> Oerjan you are 45 - 48 ???
03:59:20 <ratpuke> Good I remembered correctly
04:00:35 <shachaf> oerjan is old enough to be his own grandpa
04:01:27 <oerjan> i'm not my own grandpa.
04:02:04 <oerjan> my uncle is, however, iirc.
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04:02:15 <shachaf> your uncle is your own grandpa?
04:02:46 <oerjan> unless i messed this up
04:02:47 <shachaf> what does it mean to be someone's hth
04:02:54 <ratpuke> Atleast shachaf isn't dead
04:03:09 <oerjan> i may be dead. you are all illusions.
04:03:30 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't remember.
04:03:33 <ratpuke> I changed my name and my house since I left
04:03:50 <oerjan> but you did not improve your manners?
04:04:26 <shachaf> changed your manor to another manor
04:04:37 <ratpuke> Its hard to keep manners at my house seeing as I have to super professional at the clinic
04:06:02 <ratpuke> Let me be your doctor shachaf
04:06:20 <shachaf> Did I know you by another name?
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04:06:24 <ratpuke> Actually no that's a conflict of interest scratch that forget I said that
04:06:51 <ratpuke> I forgot what name I came on here with last hence the new account let me remember in a bit
04:07:37 <ratpuke> Oerjan lest you wake up to find you were only ever a dream
04:08:00 <ratpuke> To the I may be dead you are all illusions
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04:12:44 <HackEgo> The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
04:13:45 <oerjan> `cwlprits cut elimination
04:13:47 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e shachäf
04:15:06 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ kmod \ less \
04:15:09 * oerjan wonders if that's somehow a special case of the real CET
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04:15:22 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /bin/chgrp: Read-only file system
04:15:43 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
04:15:46 <izalove> breatharians vs flat earthers
04:16:28 <HackEgo> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type host
04:16:38 <HackEgo> none on /hackenv type hostfs (rw,nosuid,relatime,/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/) \ tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,relatime) \ proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) \ sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime)
04:16:38 <\oren\> flat earthers do less damage to their children. therefore they are my favorit
04:18:46 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 4 5000 5000 4096 Oct 23 21:01 .hg
04:18:53 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `.hg/abc': Read-only file system
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04:23:21 <hppavilion[1]> Should [θ] and [ð] be called the "Voic(ed/less) INTERdental fricative" rather than the "Voic(ed/less) dental fricative"?
04:23:52 <\oren\> YAY! the next version of my font will have a complete DINGBATS block
04:24:20 <HackEgo> ✀✁✂✃✄✅✆✇✈✉✊✋✌✍✎✏ \ ✐✑✒✓✔✕✖✗✘✙✚✛✜✝✞✟ \ ✠✡✢✣✤✥✦✧✨✩✪✫✬✭✮✯ \ ✰✱✲✳✴✵✶✷✸✹✺✻✼✽✾✿ \ ❀❁❂❃❄❅❆❇❈❉❊❋❌❍❎❏ \ ❐❑❒❓❔❕❖❗❘❙❚❛❜❝❞❟ \ ❠❡❢❣❤❥❦❧❨❩❪❫❬
04:25:37 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: correct, typically those symbols are used for the interdentals
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04:32:39 <hppavilion[1]> The voiceless glottal fricative (IPA [h], english <h>) is often used to modify consonants into... whatever
04:34:27 <\oren\> yeah, I think we should use capital letters for that
04:34:45 <hppavilion[1]> Note that if the leading symbol is the voiced version of another symbol that exists in this combination (e.g. z/s, d/t), you voice the combination (zh is voiced sh, dh is voiced th)
04:35:26 <\oren\> becuase 'Du' is better than 'the
04:35:41 <hppavilion[1]> Some languages, however, have a voiced glottal fricative (IPA [ɦ], let's say that if we used it in english it'd also be [ɦ])
04:36:55 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Are we saying that capital letters and miniuscule letters will be different? Like in X-SAMPA?
04:38:02 <\oren\> yeah. /ðʌ/ is "modified d, short u" so 'Du'
04:38:46 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh, are you suggesting we use something similar to X-SAMPA for IRC?
04:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, ch is [tS], but we'll treat it as distinct and say the voiced version- gh- is [dZ] aka /j/)
04:39:41 <hppavilion[1]> (gh, henceforth, does not make [f], because that's stupid.)
04:41:09 <\oren\> gh would be more like the french r
04:41:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Can we make <j> [j] like in pretty much every other language?
04:41:27 <\oren\> you know, you pronounce a french r by choking on snails
04:42:21 <hppavilion[1]> kh makes [x], qh (now, q:k::g:c) is [ɣ] which we write [G] apparently
04:43:37 <\oren\> y glide followed by 'long U'
04:44:55 <\oren\> Y is. y is a vowel glide
04:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> We have sh (aka S), zh (aka Z), th (aka T) with rare variant dh (aka D), ch (aka tS aka C), gh (aka dZ aka old english j), kh (aka K), and qh (aka Q)
04:46:02 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/speliG.htm heres my spelig reform proposal
04:46:17 <hppavilion[1]> Let's restrict to sh, zh, th, dh, and ch temporarily
04:46:30 <\oren\> but I take it this would be a system not only for english
04:46:56 <izalove> https://i.imgur.com/JRnSQFI.jpg this is so cool
04:49:28 <oerjan> <\oren\> you know, you pronounce a french r by choking on snails <-- actually, almost any mollusc will do hth
04:49:39 <hppavilion[1]> Question: If I want to write capital ɦ, what unicode do I use?
04:49:49 <HackEgo> [U+0266 LATIN SMALL LETTER H WITH HOOK]
04:51:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uniencode: not found
04:54:35 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, how DOES one initialize a name with a digraph?
04:55:24 <hppavilion[1]> Also, is there a name for the process that gave us [s] -> [S], [t] -> [T], [z] -> [D], and [d] -> [D]?
04:57:37 <HackEgo> The Segmentation Fault is just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce various hiccups at the most inconvienent times.
04:57:39 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn subtle/The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear
04:57:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'subtle': The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear
04:58:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/subtle//The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear.$
04:58:31 <HackEgo> wisdom/subtle//The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear.
04:59:34 <shachaf> it's certainly not supertle
05:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> OK, really, what is the rule that transforms _ into _h?
05:08:04 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: it all started with latin
05:09:05 <\oren\> when romans imported greek words that had aspirated c (/k/), aspirated r, and aspirated p
05:09:14 <\oren\> they spelled them with an h
05:09:46 <\oren\> like phi, chi, rho, and theta
05:10:10 <\oren\> these were originally pronounced with simple aspiration
05:10:24 <\oren\> but over time the language changed
05:11:04 <\oren\> and now those sounds are not simply aspirated versions anymore
05:11:51 <\oren\> in latin that would probably have been a devoiced n
05:12:24 <\oren\> whereas in gaelic it would maybe be a alveolar appriximant?
05:13:21 <\oren\> most languages have pretty ad-hoc spellig systems
05:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yes, and I want to make it uniform and non-ad-hoc, but in the opposite direction
05:15:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Rather than by changing the spelling, by changing the sounds)
05:16:38 <shachaf> There's no reason for spelling to correspond to sound.
05:16:46 <shachaf> Different dialects pronounce words different ways.
05:20:00 <\oren\> shachaf: right like your dialect pronounces 'ch' as /x/?
05:20:49 <shachaf> My dialect doesn't assign a single pronunciation to "ch".
05:20:55 <shachaf> And nor does any other dialect I know how.
05:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> Which is wrong, because [x] should clearly be written <kh>
05:22:13 <shachaf> Anyway, the "ch" in my name is IPA χ, not x.
05:22:49 <\oren\> shachaf: my dialect pronounces 'ch' as either /tſ/ or /k/ in all cases I know of
05:25:09 <\oren\> pronounced identiacl to lock by most people
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05:25:59 <\oren\> that's not even remotely an english word
05:26:38 <hppavilion[1]> (So is mine, to be fair, but I'm working on it, OK?)
05:27:56 <\oren\> "chutzpah" <-- yeah, I defiantly don't consider THAT an english owrd
05:28:18 <\oren\> machine is a good point though.
05:28:31 <shachaf> It has a different meaning in English than in Hebrew (and Yiddish, as far as I know).
05:29:10 <\oren\> but seriously most english speakers can't pronounce /x/ and approximate it with /k/
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05:29:50 <\oren\> shachaf: itym hanukkah
05:30:17 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah
05:30:58 <shachaf> The string "Chanukah" is right on that page.
05:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> What should the hypothetical letter making [x] be called?
05:31:27 <\oren\> Bach for example I have heard many people pronounce as bak
05:33:48 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Consonants <-- chart does not contain /x/
05:34:05 <shachaf> Are you some sort of prescriptivists?
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05:35:33 <\oren\> no, just pointing out it's a marginal sound only used by people familiar with it though knowledge of foriegn phonology
05:35:44 <shachaf> It's right to the left of h
05:36:54 <\oren\> shachaf: are you really looking at the same chart?
05:38:18 <shachaf> Oh, no, I was looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonants
05:38:31 <shachaf> Which is what I got by searching for "consonants" on that page and clicking the link.
05:39:09 <\oren\> https://s16.postimg.org/h4i3117ut/phonemes.png
05:39:25 <hppavilion[1]> Like, it's not prescriptivism to say someone is englishing wrong when they say "I have one dogs"
05:39:58 <\oren\> The voiceless velar fricative /x/ is mainly used in Scottish and Hiberno-English; words with /x/ in Scottish accents tend to be pronounced with /k/ in other dialects. The velar fricative sometimes appears in recent loanwords such as chutzpah. Many speakers of White South African English realize /x/ as uvular [χ].[4]
05:40:08 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's at least not 1 sigma above the standard prescriptivism levels.
05:42:18 <shachaf> If someone speaks that way, it's not wrong.
05:43:12 <shachaf> Or, rather: If someone speaks that way, it's prescriptivism to tell them that they're wrong.
05:43:14 <\oren\> shachaf: but it is a low-status dialect
05:43:35 <shachaf> See e.g. https://web.stanford.edu/~zwicky/aave-is-not-se-with-mistakes.pdf
05:51:21 * hppavilion[1] immediately realizes shachaf's dialect could be AAVE
05:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> I just made a little program to correctly identify whether to use 'a' or 'an', but it's hacky
05:53:39 <hppavilion[1]> I use 'a/n' (capitalized 'A/n') any time it's ambiguous. I have a master list of vowels, and I replace any occurrence of 'a/n' (or 'A/n') followed by a vowel or its upper case with an <that-vowel-potentially-upper>
05:55:32 <hppavilion[1]> For words that start with a consonant orthographically but a vowel in theory, an additional pseudo-vowel ^ is used where 'a/n ^' (or 'A/n ^') becomes 'an ' (or 'An ')
05:56:52 <hppavilion[1]> And for words that start with a vowel orthographically but not in speech (not sure if any exist though), the opposite ! is used which is the same but with 'a' or 'A' instead of 'an' or 'An'
05:58:06 <hppavilion[1]> Then any remaining ^s are stripped, any remaining !s, and all remaining 'a/n's become 'a' and 'A/n's 'A'
06:01:58 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "use" hth
06:04:16 <\oren\> a whole nother problem
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06:19:48 <HackEgo> U+2105 CARE OF \ UTF-8: e2 84 85 UTF-16BE: 2105 Decimal: ℅ \ ℅ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Decomposition: <compat> 0063 002F 006F
06:20:34 <ais523> lifthrasiir: it's a really common typo on Android
06:20:50 <ais523> because it's right next to % on the mobile keyboard
06:21:08 <ais523> and they look really similar so inattentive people frequently pick the wrong one
06:21:18 <ais523> no idea why Android placed in on their default keyboard, but they did…
06:21:32 <ais523> also I was aware of it beforehand
06:21:51 <ais523> it's used in addresses, when you send a piece of (physical) mail to one person, but it's intended for another person
06:22:22 <ais523> e.g. if you're sending mail to someone who's on holiday, you can send mail to the guest ℅ the host, followed by the host's address
06:22:24 <lifthrasiir> frankly speaking I never seen like that, I think I've seen (for example) ⅊ several times
06:22:35 <ais523> actually it's quite similar to a bang path from very early email
06:22:42 <ais523> "send the mail to this person, who will deliver it to that person"
06:23:20 <ais523> I've received mail routed like that in the past, but I can't remember why
06:24:17 <ais523> quite why this would be useful on a mobile phone, I don't know, given that smartphones were invented well after postal mail mostly died out
06:24:37 <lifthrasiir> ais523: in my country I have never seen such a thing probably because the recipient is probably not considered for the routing
06:25:10 <lifthrasiir> only the address is significant to mail carriers
06:25:30 <ais523> the name of the recipient is normally only relevant over here for resolving typos
06:25:56 <ais523> if someone typos the house number then you can sometimes figure out where to deliver the letter from the recipient's name
06:26:07 <ais523> especially in rural areas where everyone knows who lives where
06:26:44 <ais523> I've seen this sort of thing happen in practice more than once
06:27:13 <lifthrasiir> (modern) Korean addresses are relatively better standardized so such thing might not have been required
06:27:52 <ais523> in the UK we have, or should have, two unique identifiers on each address: {house number, postcode} and {house number, address}
06:28:27 <ais523> most of the time when you tell someone your address in person at a store or the like, they use one to input the value and the other as verification
06:28:50 <ais523> the postcode isn't technically required but the post office will yell at you for not using it
06:28:56 <ais523> they have little rubber stamps that say "please use the postcode"
06:28:58 <ais523> they deliver it anyway though
06:31:14 <pikhq> The US doesn't have said rubber stamps at all, but they will deliver without a ZIP code.
06:31:41 <ais523> your zip codes are way more ambiguous than our postcodes, though
06:31:48 <ais523> one postcode narrows things down to around ten houses
06:32:06 <pikhq> Yeah, the ZIP code typically narrows down to a post office.
06:32:08 <ais523> and things are typically arranged so that they all have different numbers (typically they're all adjacent on the same road)
06:32:36 <pikhq> Except for a ZIP+4, which is substantially more specific.
06:32:43 <ais523> but then, a postcode is {one or two letters}, {small integer}, digit, letter, letter
06:33:06 <pikhq> But it's generally only businesses with an automated system in place that will use a ZIP+4.
06:33:14 <ais523> which is a pretty well-designed format because it can't run out (the "small integer"s value is "as small as necessary" but it can get quite large when the numbers would otherwise run out)
06:33:56 <pikhq> (A ZIP+4 will refine down to a city block, apartment complex, or an individual high-volume receiver of mail)
06:34:19 <ais523> incidentally, the small integer in question is also placed on the street name road signs that exist on pretty much every street corner
06:34:34 <ais523> in order to help you figure out where you are if you're lost and on a road with a commonly used name (e.g. "Church Road")
06:34:56 <ais523> the assumption is that you know which town or city you're in, but not necessarily where you are within that town or city
06:35:12 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. *Part* of why nobody cares that much at the post office is we've got automated machines that read in an address and spray on the matching ZIP+4 and delivery point as a barcode.
06:35:13 <ais523> and the "postcode areas" in question are shown on maps
06:35:42 <ais523> I guess that's all mostly obsolete in the days of GPS, though
06:36:56 <pikhq> Also, the USPS has this weird thing that they will deliver mail anywhere where they can figure out WTF you *meant*. Weird pride thing, I think.
06:37:12 <ais523> the Royal Mail is like that too
06:37:50 <pikhq> You've got pretty good odds of getting mail routed properly just by scrawling "Google" on an envelope and mailing it.
06:38:14 <pikhq> Granted, it'll probably take longer.
06:38:58 <ais523> the market forces on mail over here are also somewhat weird
06:38:58 <zzo38> I have read they mailed various stuff to Robert Ripley even though strange addressing, but then eventually posted a notice saying they would no longer deliver it if it was addressed incorrectly.
06:39:10 <ais523> as a result of email outcompeting it
06:39:28 <ais523> we used to have two standards of mail delivery, first class which was next-day if posted before a certain time
06:39:38 <ais523> and second-class which was a bit slower, typically a few days
06:39:52 <ais523> anyway, second class was originally much cheaper, so people used it for most things
06:40:11 <ais523> but nowadays second class is not only substantially slower than it used to be, but also it's only marginally cheaper than first class
06:40:28 <ais523> meaning it's basically only ever used for junk mail
06:41:09 <pikhq> First-class mail here is any postcard, letter, large envelope, or package 13 oz or smaller.
06:41:35 <pikhq> i.e. you don't even really have the option of using second class for your letter.
06:42:21 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Are there any languages where [m] and [n] are allophones )
06:42:47 <pikhq> Course, first-class mail here also doesn't have an attempt to be next-day.
06:43:10 <imode> I wonder if I could say that anything defined within [ and ] is always an anonymous, recursive function that's always evaluated when encountered..
06:43:24 <imode> yeah, that's a fancy way of saying a while loop.
06:43:25 <ais523> I believe the UK still has the next-day thing going but has relaxed the timings within the day
06:43:38 <ais523> i.e. you have to post early morning and it might arrive late afternoon the day after
06:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: first-class mail is mail that you can send within another letter or embed it into text
06:44:39 <ais523> imode: it's not necessarily a while loop; it's more of a forever loop, but I don't see any reason it necessarily even has to be tail-recursive
06:44:39 <pikhq> Understandbly: first-class mail is required by law to be the same cost for *any address served by the USPS*, so for them to make that would imply a fairly expensive bit of postage.
06:44:46 <ais523> it's more of a ({})%-1
06:45:08 <imode> ais523: in my language, [ and ] is just while(1){}
06:45:20 <ais523> pikhq: because the US is so large and there's no restriction on which states you can send it to?
06:45:35 <ais523> imode: I'm taking the definition of "anonymous recursive function that's always evaluated when encountered"
06:45:49 <pikhq> If you did it within, say, a 100 mile radius it'd probably be pretty reasonable.
06:45:50 <ais523> hitting the timing restrictions in the UK used to be fairly hard
06:45:58 <ais523> they had dedicated overnight train services for the longer-distance mail
06:46:07 <pikhq> Within your state would only be reasonable for some states.
06:46:35 <ais523> probably that's why the timing restrictions were relaxed, come to think of it
06:46:49 <pikhq> More or less the only way to hit such a timing restriction for some states would be airmail.
06:47:47 <ais523> now I'm wondering how fast those pneumatic tubes that some stores use to transfer cash around can go
06:48:58 <pikhq> You'd probably appreciate the (no longer operating) New York pneumatic tube mail system.
06:49:21 <pikhq> Hrm. Mail there went up to 35 mph.
06:52:17 <shachaf> Unfortunately that doesn't scale to long distances.
06:52:23 <shachaf> @google alameda-weehawken burrito tunnel
06:52:25 <lambdabot> http://idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda_weehawken_burrito_tunnel.htm
06:52:25 <lambdabot> Title: The Alameda-Weehawken Burrito Tunnel (Idle Words)
06:53:00 <ais523> hmm… perhaps using the hyperloop for cargo would turn out to be more useful than using it for transporting humans
06:53:03 <ais523> less danger if it goes wrong, for one thing
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06:56:11 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: m and n are allophones in romaji japanese
06:57:12 <pikhq> \oren\: Only in some locations.
06:57:44 <\oren\> like you can represent ん as n in ほんと or m in せんぱい
06:57:51 <pikhq> "na" and "ma" are different sounds, but the n/m in "senpai" or "sempai" are the same phoneme.
06:57:53 <FireFly> <pikhq> Also, the USPS has this weird thing that they will deliver mail anywhere where they can figure out WTF you *meant*. Weird pride thing, I think. ← Reminds me of http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37233913
06:59:06 <ais523> FireFly: that seems like a pretty precise way to describe a location
06:59:11 <pikhq> Though, in modified Hepburn they are never allophones.
06:59:58 <pikhq> (but few people actually write formally correct romaji in a single system)
07:00:25 <FireFly> ais523: sure, though very nonstandard
07:01:43 <FireFly> 'The picture has prompted readers to share other miraculous postal stories; such as the tale of the Christmas card sent from Germany, which somehow arrived at the right place despite only being addressed to "England".' hmm
07:01:55 <FireFly> that sounds like an impressive feat
07:03:16 <lifthrasiir> http://text-mode.tumblr.com/post/31409503070/russian-postmen-fix-an-error-caused-by-an is a canonical example of such a feat
07:05:03 <FireFly> It's pretty impressive to be honest
07:06:31 <zzo38> Did they have to look at the message inside the envelope to figure it out?
07:07:49 <pikhq> For the mojibake one? Doubtful. TBH pretty much any Russian Internet user would be familiar with that sort of mojibake.
07:08:00 <ais523> lifthrasiir: that doesn't seem that difficult, all you need to know is the existence of mojibake
07:08:12 <zzo38> I mean for only being addressed to "England"
07:08:37 <ais523> it's basically the same as ordinary language except that all the letters have different shapes
07:08:39 <pikhq> Perhaps need some work to map it, but mojibake was pretty serious in Russia.
07:08:45 <zzo38> (The German post office should know to forward it to the English post office, but then the English post office has to figure it out)
07:08:49 <lifthrasiir> ais523: I don't think so, since one also needs to guess the encoding
07:08:51 <ais523> but it's still just a 1-to-1 translation, and one that can readily be looked up
07:09:01 <pikhq> Courtesy of there being several mutually incompatible encodings for Russian.
07:09:05 <ais523> lifthrasiir: well yes, but there's a small finite number of possibilities there
07:09:24 <zzo38> I live in Canada. I once posted a piece of black string (with no writing or pictures or whatever) to see if it would get delivered correctly (somehow I thought that it would); it did not get delivered.
07:09:24 <lifthrasiir> it might well be possible that the post office reached for external help
07:09:26 <pikhq> And they can easily be figured out because the wrong encodings will be gibberish.
07:10:15 <zzo38> Mojibake should be easy enough to figure out yes. That is different from writing only "England" or writing no address at all.
07:10:27 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: could you decipher those black strings?
07:10:45 <pikhq> zzo38: The one directed to "England" almost certainly needed opening.
07:10:54 <ais523> zzo38: did you have someone in mind as the intended recipient?
07:11:05 <zzo38> ais523: Yes; myself
07:11:18 <pikhq> I would anticipate the UK is much like the US in that the post office is legally allowed to open a letter if it's necessary to correctly deliver it.
07:11:24 <zzo38> (But that was when I was young and somehow thought of strange things like that)
07:11:34 <oerjan> pikhq: in this case they probably guessed fast that the first word was "Россия"
07:12:08 <pikhq> oerjan: That'd help.
07:12:36 <ais523> btw, I tried to decode the icelandic map
07:12:48 <ais523> purely based on satellite images and the landmarks shown on the map, you can narrow it down to about three farms
07:12:58 <ais523> and one of them appears to farm crops rather than sheep
07:13:05 <pikhq> And the postman probably knew who was being talked about.
07:15:07 <zzo38> If I worked in the post office in England and received the letter addressed only to "England", I would assume that it was addressed to the post office and open it anyways, and then can see if it is clearly for someone else then it can be forwarded.
07:15:47 <zzo38> (And if I worked in a post office somewhere else, I would have simply forwarded it to England without opening it.)
07:17:06 <ais523> here's the letter addressed just "England": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-35174646
07:17:27 <ais523> it was unopened, but believed that it had a more complete address at one point, which fell off en route
07:17:36 <ais523> and by that point it was already in the correct city
07:18:30 <FireFly> so at that point it boils own to knowing who receives occasional mail from germany, I guess
07:19:33 <ais523> yes, they outright said that's how they solved it, by asking everyone in the area if they were expecting mail from germany
07:20:05 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: h.264 (mp4)
07:20:18 <ais523> they might not be the three dimensions you were expecting but it still works
07:30:03 <zzo38> I have some ideas about making up Magic: the Gathering cards see if you like or what comment of it please. One idea is if a card has "At the beginning of each combat damage step, you gain life equal to the amount of damage marked on ~."
07:30:54 <zzo38> (Maybe it should be a card with first strike also, or with another ability that can temporarily grant itself first strike)
07:32:14 <zzo38> (Since then you can earn life points more than once)
07:32:46 <zzo38> Actually, perhaps don't add first strike (rely on other cards having it), but maybe to put banding
07:33:22 <ais523> perhaps it should have an ability like "1W: target creature gains first strike until end of turn"
07:33:24 <zzo38> (No, not first strike, maybe last strike!)
07:33:46 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, OK that can help better
07:34:02 <ais523> that way you can create extra combat damage steps by giving it to another creature you control (while also helping in combat), or give a blocker first strike to get damage marked on it
07:34:03 <zzo38> I like your idea better
07:34:16 <zzo38> Yes, I did realize that when you said
07:40:32 <zzo38> Another idea to make a card: At the beginning of your draw step, put a charge counter on ~. ;; At the beginning of each opponent's draw step, that opponent exiles his hand and then puts the bottom X cards of his library into his hand, where X is twice the number of charge counters on ~.
07:43:09 <ais523> that's sort of like a cross between midnight oil (in reverse) and forced fruition
07:43:14 <ais523> what do you think of those cards?
07:44:30 <ais523> `card-by-name Midnight Oil
07:44:36 <ais523> `card-by-name Forced Fruition
07:44:37 <HackEgo> Forced Fruition \ 4UU \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent casts a spell, that player draws seven cards. \ LRW-R
07:44:42 <ais523> I guess this thing doesn't have Kaladesh yet
07:45:02 <zzo38> Then you should add Kaladesh
07:45:44 <zzo38> But, I looked on Gatherer so that I can see its working.
07:48:15 <zzo38> Forced Fruition certainly look to be very powerful (although you should probably play some counterspells too); can be even better if combined with Underworld Dreams.
07:49:17 <zzo38> Midnight Oil looks like it can be risky to use, but it may be good in the right circumstances.
07:50:02 <ais523> `card-by-name Underworld Dreams
07:50:03 <HackEgo> Underworld Dreams \ BBB \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to him or her. \ LE-U, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R, M10-R
07:50:25 <ais523> hmm, that'd work well with Forced Fruition if the opponents were on low life
07:50:39 <ais523> above that, though, you'd probably want to win via making them draw from an empty library
07:51:44 <zzo38> Yes, that is generally how you should win by Forced Fruition, but if you are playing black as well as blue then you might want to have both just in case
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09:01:09 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently people have picked up on the fact that my company outfits truck exhaust with apiocides.
09:01:24 <hppavilion[1]> They're starting to get upset about the bees dying.
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09:24:17 <int-e> ... oh xkcd hasn't updated.
09:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm constantly refreshing the news to wait for reports of his death to stream in
09:30:02 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], it sometimes updates quite late
10:01:34 <b_jonas> @messages (I don't think I have any, but why not try)
10:07:10 <shachaf> `` dowg oerjan | grep -i nite
10:07:20 <HackEgo> Your venerated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
10:12:11 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#st#st knite#
10:12:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your venerated itymologist knite gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
10:12:24 <shachaf> Yes, oerjan is Lord of October.
10:15:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tanebventions: not found
10:15:53 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:16:31 <HackEgo> _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
10:16:44 <HackEgo> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
10:17:08 <olsner> Taneb, possibly the best Tanebventor
10:19:36 <HackEgo> Sand is what microprocessors are made of. Taneb invented it.
10:22:30 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you ever play Shade?
10:22:31 <shachaf> http://www.eblong.com/zarf/zweb/shade/
10:22:47 <Taneb> shachaf, I have not
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10:28:56 <hppavilion[1]> Under the standard model... there are 6 types of lepton, 6 types of quark, and 5 bosons
10:36:37 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_particles#Bosons lists six, with one unconfirmed
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11:50:15 <HackEgo> manometer//A manometer is a device for testing real men by putting them under pressure.
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14:40:44 <izalove> if you have an unsorted vector, you can pretend it's a linked list
14:41:11 <izalove> to remove an element in the middle, move the last element to the middle position
14:42:49 <izalove> ok i realize that you're all very smart but this was a nice trick imo <.<
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16:07:45 <Taneb> izalove, that is a nice trick!
16:18:02 <HackEgo> olist 1056: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:20:46 <\oren\> b_jonas: what's strange?
16:20:52 <b_jonas> I seem to remember a rumour that the colon builtin in the bash-like shells was added in ancient times back when there were no shebang lines, to distinguish sh scripts from csh scripts, so that when csh saw it in the first line of a shell script, it invoked sh or something
16:21:10 <b_jonas> or maybe backwards, sh invoked csh if it saw that
16:21:55 <b_jonas> but now I did a web search, and http://unix.stackexchange.com/q/31673 indicates that its history is that it was used to mark labels, when the shell had a goto statement (currently only tcsh has that, bash doesn't)
16:23:20 <b_jonas> (the dos cmd and the windows shell also uses a leading colon to make a label you can goto in a batch file)
16:26:40 <b_jonas> maybe I should spread the rumour that the colon is for compatibility with the windows shell, so that you can write comments that work in both, since # is an ordinary character for the windows shell and ' doesn't work as a comment char in the unix shell
16:28:31 <\oren\> ♺♻♼♽♾⚹⚺⚻⚼⚽⚾⚿❅❆❇❈❉❊❋❌❁❂❃➭➮➯➰➱➲➳➴➵➶➷➸➹➺➻➼➽➾➿⚰⚱ aww that's not that many characters...
16:28:59 <\oren\> at least now I have all the dingbats
16:30:39 <\oren\> it was especially hard to draw like ten distinguishable asterisks and snowflakes
16:30:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you have mail envelope and telephone dingbats too?
16:31:19 <b_jonas> ah, this ✆ is probably the telephone one
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16:39:22 <\oren\> those were easy to draw
16:41:00 <\oren\> I just had to spend quite some time experimenting to figure out how to draw all those damn snowflakes and asterisks different
16:44:08 <\oren\> sometimes the unicode consortium are meanies
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16:58:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: the snowflakes don't come from the unicode consortium, I think. it comes from those two and a half 256-character dingbat fonts from windows 16 before unicode, and now they had to encode all the characters in those so documents using them can be upgraded.
16:59:42 <b_jonas> ok, not really 256 character, I think they only have like 224 characters each or something, but they're fonts back when you just chose a different font when you wanted a different single-byte encoding.
17:01:55 <\oren\> wow, wallonia is still holding out
17:02:53 <\oren\> looks like the beginning of the end for globalbism
17:03:55 <\oren\> President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker has also urged the 28 member states to “fight against stupid populists.”
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17:10:26 <\oren\> Chrystia freeland is the MP for my riding, but I didn't vote for her
17:12:27 <\oren\> I voted for Jennifer Hollett, because Chrystia didn't seem to care about local issues
17:15:58 <\oren\> I just wanted someone who would make the trains run on time
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18:00:05 <\oren\> http://i.imgur.com/CznBOoj.jpg
18:07:23 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hnURox5G28
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18:11:14 <\oren\> I wonder if peЯoco is supposed to be ペロコ or ペヤオコ
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18:50:30 <hppavilion[1]> Strictly speaking, even a rather small 64x64 image tells over 3000 words.
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19:29:10 <HackEgo> U+0259 LATIN SMALL LETTER SCHWA \ UTF-8: c9 99 UTF-16BE: 0259 Decimal: ə \ ə (Ə) \ Uppercase: U+018F \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
19:31:01 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_alphabet
19:44:53 <HackEgo> [U+3010 LEFT BLACK LENTICULAR BRACKET] [U+FF1D FULLWIDTH EQUALS SIGN] [U+25C8 WHITE DIAMOND CONTAINING BLACK SMALL DIAMOND] [U+FE3F PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL LEFT ANGLE BRACKET] [U+25C8 WHITE DIAMOND CONTAINING BLACK SMALL DIAMOND] [U+FF1D FULLWIDTH EQUALS SIGN] [U+3011 RIGHT BLACK LENTICULAR BRACKET]
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19:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> Fun fact: Jesse's Girl (1) had brown eyes and (2) has a daughter named Stacy from a previous marriage
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21:53:35 <izalove> what tools can parse grammars that require infinite lookahead?
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23:22:58 <fizzie> Well, that's handy: my mobile operator's "account balance" page has switched units from megabytes to gigabytes.
23:23:05 <fizzie> And they also don't do fractions.
23:24:52 <fizzie> So it's been showing "1" for the last 9 days, and I have no idea how much of the gigabyte is left.
23:25:44 <Zarutian> fizzle: call them that there after you are only going to pay in kilopounds and only when the bill reaches that.
23:26:09 <fizzie> It's a pre-paid thing, so I don't think I can use that trick.
23:26:58 <fizzie> I'm still hoping they'll switch units once the remaining allowance goes under one full gigabyte. Extrapolating from historical trends, that should've already happened, but it's not entirely impossible it hasn't.
23:27:22 <fizzie> But quite possibly they're just rounding to nearest and it'll flip from "1" to "0" at half a gigabyte.
23:27:36 <Zarutian> I thought telecoms only used bits as the units of data.
23:28:00 <fizzie> Bits are for speed, bytes are for volume.
23:28:12 <Zarutian> bits per seconds are for speed
23:28:28 <fizzie> Just bits aren't for anything.
23:29:01 <Zarutian> Aaand we have a sign phrase for a protestor
23:29:02 <fizzie> Well, not exactly. Just bits are for bragging on your phone spec sheet. (64 instead of 32.)
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23:38:46 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vGjmZNbKGE
23:40:34 <boily> izellove. that is some sweet animation.
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23:53:34 <boily> time to go clog my arteries with fat, grease, and greasy fat...
23:53:48 <boily> hppavilion[1]: POUTIIIIIIIIINE!
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23:56:10 <hppavilion[1]> [generic question] If/when humans branch out to other planets (when it's been done for a while and we have the space infrastructure; not at the very beginning) how do you think we're likely to go about organizing? Will nations be united under a world super-nation (like the EU, but planet-wide), will nations tend to control entire planets, or will it just be a horrible mess of nation-splitting where countries are often split between
23:56:10 <hppavilion[1]> multiple planets, each of which tends to host multiple parts of countries?
23:58:01 <fizzie> It's going to just be colonialism IN SPACE hth hand
23:59:56 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
00:03:00 <olsner> I think esolangs will live on across all the human planets
00:03:50 <olsner> I ignored most of the end of that question, but it was about esolangs, right?
00:11:41 <hppavilion[1]> (All it can do is determine whether someone has the title of "admin" and handle inventories, which are only allowed to give people meaningless items)
00:24:56 <myname> also, lojban is way more awesome than esperanto
00:28:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But Esperanto is more common and Google Translate supports it
00:29:19 <myname> i thought about making a translation program from german to lojban
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00:37:52 <Taneb> Help, I am helping other people with maths assignments to procrastinate doing my maths assignment
00:38:18 <shachaf> which math is your assignment about
00:38:22 <myname> is the assigment you are helping with easy?
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00:38:40 <Taneb> myname, it's more obvious to me than mine is
00:38:48 <hppavilion[1]> Listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhk-DiPqhr8 on loop, I guess.
00:38:57 <myname> Taneb: i can relate than
00:39:14 <myname> hppavilion[1]: why do you ask
00:39:17 <hppavilion[1]> Took me 5 fucking years to get that the meaning of "You're the last thing on my mind" is different at the beginning vs. the end
00:39:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because you want to translated German to Lojban
00:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You want to translate German into *anything*
00:39:48 <hppavilion[1]> How do you even tell where the word boundaries are‽
00:40:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What about e.g. "ringstellung" or "schneeballschlacht"
00:41:14 <hppavilion[1]> (ringstellung I already knew from implementing Enigma)
00:41:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh, the first snow here was over the weekend, which is why we learned shneeular words)
00:41:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, that may be a problem for actual vocabulary, my current translation thingie does not do this
00:41:47 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh! You mean you're just translating fixed words?
00:41:49 <myname> also, english is not that easier there
00:42:06 <myname> what i do is something like
00:42:11 <fizzie> myname: Wir gehen entgegen, wir haben entgegengegangen.
00:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I mean translating *known* words, so compound words that aren't on file can't be translated
00:42:36 <myname> "he likes a dog" to "exists X: dog(X) and likes(he, X)"
00:42:58 <myname> fizzie: "wir haben entgegengegangen" does not make sense
00:43:09 <myname> hppavilion[1]: order of appearance
00:43:25 <myname> fizzie: my favorite: "ich werde gefahren worden sein wollen"
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00:43:43 <myname> anythong but "ich" is the verb in that,sentence
00:43:43 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So "in the UK, a woman gives birth every 15 seconds" would parse as...?
00:44:11 <fizzie> Anyway, I like 'entgegengegangen' purely because of the way it looks like when written by hand.
00:44:24 <myname> the wrong thing, but i don't care about that
00:44:29 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], someone help that poor woman
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00:45:11 <myname> fizzie: first of all, it would be sein instead of haben as auxiliary verb, second it needs an object
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00:46:20 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Masochism (where the <ch> is pronounced as [x]) is when somebody voluntarily does natural language processing for German. Taneb did not invent it, according to clerical records.
00:46:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'masochism': Masochism (where the <ch> is pronounced as [x]) is when somebody voluntarily does natural language processing for German. Taneb did not invent it, according to clerical records.
00:46:24 <olsner> fungot: wollen Sie haben sein?
00:46:24 <fungot> olsner: i think we can just as well be a bunch of
00:47:40 <myname> "ich werde gefahren worden sein wollen" means something like "some time in the future, there will be a point at where i would have wanted to be driven"
00:47:41 <HackEgo> This sentence is just. Taneb invented it.
00:49:31 <HackEgo> grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
00:49:48 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/_46bit \ wisdom/automatic squirrel feeder \ wisdom/bbc \ wisdom/bdsm \ wisdom/bogosort \ wisdom/boxmodel \ wisdom/chu space \ wisdom/ci \ wisdom/civilization \ wisdom/costume \ wisdo
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00:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> `` grep -l --exclude=wisdom/*/* "Taneb" wisdom/* | sed 's#.*/##g' | sed 's#\n##g'
00:53:11 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ _46bit \ automatic squirrel feeder \ bbc \ bdsm \ bogosort \ boxmodel \ chu space \ ci \ civilization \ costume \ curry's paradox \ deniability \ denial \ d-module \ ehird \ eliot \ eyebrow
00:53:26 <HackEgo> Bogosort is an efficient sorting algorithm for nondeterministic Turing machines. Taneb may have invented it.
00:53:45 <HackEgo> boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be.
00:54:40 <fizzie> I didn't know example.com is actually serving a thing.
00:57:42 <hppavilion[1]> `` grep -l --exclude=wisdom/*/* "Taneb" wisdom/* | sed 's/grep: .*//' | sed 's#.*/##g' | sed 's#\n##g'
00:57:44 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ _46bit \ automatic squirrel feeder \ bbc \ bdsm \ bogosort \ boxmodel \ chu space \ ci \ civilization \ costume \ curry's paradox \ deniability \ denial \ d-module \ ehird \ eliot \ eyebrow
00:58:09 <HackEgo> The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with webcomics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
00:58:23 <myname> is [x] the loch-sound?
00:58:33 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
00:58:40 <olsner> Taneb: you should invent the CIs before they invent you
00:59:16 <hppavilion[1]> `slwd automatic squirrel feeder//s/$/ hppavilion[1] uninvented them./
00:59:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/automatic squirrel feeder//Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them. hppavilion[1] uninvented them.
01:04:13 <fizzie> `` grep -l -d skip "Taneb" wisdom/* | sed -e 's|wisdom/||' | tr '\n' ' ' # hppavilion[1]: grep has a "-d skip" if you just wanted to avoid directories
01:04:14 <HackEgo> _46bit automatic squirrel feeder bbc bdsm bogosort boxmodel chu space ci civilization costume curry's paradox deniability denial d-module ehird eliot eyebrow facebook fundamental theorem of taneb go histogram it klein bottle lambek's lemma locale masochism matrix metar metronome necessity nih noooooooodle nvd persistence progres real redundancy ref
01:04:42 <tswett> An abelian group is just a group in the category of abelians.
01:04:42 <fizzie> Unfortunately there's too much Taneb to fit, even if you remove the newlines.
01:04:46 <tswett> (NB: not actually true.)
01:05:16 <tswett> Ice cream is just cream in the category of ice.
01:05:24 <tswett> Barack Obama is just Obama in the category of Barack.
01:05:26 <Taneb> tswett, it's just an object in the category of abelian groups
01:05:41 <myname> i always wondered what NB stands for
01:05:58 <tswett> The "N" means "note" and the "B" means "well", hth.
01:06:33 <olsner> the b stands for bene, as in bene gesserit
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01:33:29 <hppavilion[1]> Not what it stands for, but what it actually indicates
01:36:28 <HackEgo> _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
01:36:29 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: it pretty much just means "note", "take notice".
01:41:01 <hppavilion[1]> (from an Esolang standpoint, at least. From an actual-use standpoint, yeah, it's pretty shit)
01:48:34 <MoonyTheDwarf> Wow. They ported Dont Starve to android ^_^. Thanks klei!
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01:52:56 <tswett> Fuzzy types, you say? Would those be related to fuzzy logic?
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01:58:04 <myname> MoonyTheDwarf: wooooooot
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01:58:26 <myname> geez, so many great games
01:59:30 <myname> i bought mini metro recently
02:00:10 <MoonyTheDwarf> myname: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kleientertainment.doNotStarvePocket
02:00:49 <myname> nooo, it's not compatible
02:01:52 <myname> ah, it _is_ compatible with my phone
02:02:07 <myname> maybe android on my tablet is too old
02:03:10 <MoonyTheDwarf> dont worry, the interface works good on phones, they even have it in lo-def for you :P (jk, but it should work good)
02:03:14 <myname> i still use 4.4 on my tablet because of multiwindow stuff
02:03:38 <myname> i will update to nougat as soon as xposed for nougat is out
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02:08:01 <myname> i am still unsure wether or not don't starve is a game for me
02:08:13 <myname> it looks way less casual than other games like it
02:08:27 <myname> like, younactually have to play if you play
02:09:31 <MoonyTheDwarf> but no, not always casual, sometimes is sometimes its not. Just be happy your not getting the $20 PC version :P (complete with extensive modibility)
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02:11:30 <myname> i watched a lets play and was like "you fucking idiot, why are you doing this shit"
02:11:39 <myname> but i knew more about it than he did
02:11:46 <myname> like, why there are tree spirits
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02:26:37 <tswett> > sort "sphinx of black quartz judge my vow"
02:33:56 <myname> > sort "heizölrückstoßabdämpfung"
02:33:58 <lambdabot> "abcdefghiklmnoprstuz\223\228\246\252"
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02:57:38 <myname> i should bake cookies again
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03:32:47 <Sgeo_> `slist mspaofficial on snapchat
03:32:51 <HackEgo> slist mspaofficial on snapchat: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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05:46:40 <quintopia> what is a relatively simple function on 2 integers that is zero if and only if x=1 and y!=0, or x=-1 and y=0?
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05:48:29 <quintopia> sorry, not 2 integers. x can only be 1 or -1, y can be any integer
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05:50:05 <shachaf> f x y | (x == 1 && y /= 0) || (x == (-1) && y == 0) = 0 | otherwise = 1
05:50:47 <quintopia> shachaf: you call that relatively simple?
05:51:41 <quintopia> let me clarify: here "simple" means "doesn't include any conditionals"
05:51:43 <shachaf> I guess there are some measures of complexity by which it's very complex.
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05:52:04 <shachaf> well, functions don't include conditionals, just a graph. hth
05:52:52 <shachaf> A function is just a set of pairs or something.
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05:54:14 <quintopia> well, the unspecified referent of "doesn't include any conditionals" is "the description of the function in your programming language of choice" not "the function"
05:55:31 <alercah> f 1 0 = 1; f 1 _ = 0; f (-1) 0 = 0; f _ _ = 1; hth
05:55:40 <shachaf> That certainly includes conditionals.
05:55:54 <alercah> no it doesn't, it includes pattern matching!
05:56:00 <quintopia> also, i don't think haskell includes a hth command
05:56:15 <shachaf> It includes pattern matching on booleans.
05:56:21 <shachaf> That's as conditional as one can hope.
05:56:29 <shachaf> But of course any sort of pattern matching is conditional.
05:57:26 <alercah> but only for some definitions of "conditional"
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06:05:46 <quintopia> and that thing doesn't work anyway *thinks*
06:14:06 <quintopia> tested working: (0**(x+1)+0**y**2)%2
06:17:07 <HackEgo> slist UPDATE: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:21:06 <HackEgo> smlist 450: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
06:21:29 <shachaf> Wait, maybe this one isn't new?
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06:59:53 <HackEgo> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
07:02:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, is randint(0, randint(0, x)) the same as randint(0, x)?
07:03:13 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, but there's only 1 case in which you can get x, and its probability is 1/x
07:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> There are 2 cases where you can get x-1, one with probability 1/x (occurring 1/x times) and the other probability 1/(x-1) (occurring 1/x times- all inner randoms are equal, so I think they factor out)
07:05:39 <hppavilion[1]> So the total probability of x-1 is 1/x+1/(x-1) = (x-1)/(x^2-x) + x/(x^2-x) = (2x-1)/(x^2-1)
07:07:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure (2x-1)/(x^2-x) is not necessarily equal to 1/x, so therefor it's not the same
07:29:19 <myname> what do you want for an answer?
07:29:41 <myname> koh, 5 is not the same as 59, i wonder how they name that"
07:32:09 <hppavilion[1]> What are the odds of a given value n (where n : int, 0 ≤ n ≤ x) being returned by randint(0, randint(0, x))?
07:33:25 <myname> write a program and you will get a pretty close approximation
07:40:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50036&oldid=46560 * Quintopia * (+31) assuming the ! doesn't have a special meaning in SMBF and usual implementations of BF I/O
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07:47:01 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: You may know what happens when you assume...
07:49:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think it's 1/(x+1)*\sum_{i=n}^x (1/i) which involves a harmonic series and i don't think they've got "closed form" expressions.
07:52:45 <oerjan> (this may be one of the cases where starting counting at 0 is evil)
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07:53:53 <izalove> what other cases are there?
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08:28:10 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn Beethoven's Ninth Symphony/Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files.
08:28:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'beethoven's ninth symphony': Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files.
08:29:31 <myname> Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files
08:37:13 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of subsequent notes scaling by root(2, 12), they scale by root(phi, 16)
08:37:52 <hppavilion[1]> The notes are, cleverly, called a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p
08:37:54 <myname> that's one of your better ideas
08:38:30 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, if I went to 26 I could write my name in music...)
08:38:50 <myname> you need a starting point for your scale though
08:40:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I went with a=440 Hz, as it's standard and makes everything synch up in at least one place
08:41:55 <myname> but for the 26th root, maybe we need a bigger starting value?
08:45:48 <hppavilion[1]> In Hertz on the e:26 scale, my name is 725.44 440.0 913.74 575.94 440.0 725.44 913.74 846.09 753.88 725.44 725.44 513.18 879.26
08:46:17 <hppavilion[1]> (Real-world. Nobody start d0xxing me with logarithms)
08:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I've already played it directly and it's OK
08:48:20 <hppavilion[1]> (music is written in an ad hoc notation I hacked together in .txt files)
08:48:21 <myname> proposal: doubling a letter means extending how long you play, for the same note more than once you seperate using '
08:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> myname: In the existing format, you write n:k to play a note n for k beats, and dropping ":k" defaults to k=4
08:49:57 <myname> well okay, it does make playing text a bit more boring though
08:50:48 <hppavilion[1]> And you can write note names in any way you want (as defined by the Scale object being used, which for the moment is hard-coded)
08:51:23 <hppavilion[1]> n_p (note n, value p) means to take n and scale it up by p <whatever-your-separation-is>
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08:52:25 <hppavilion[1]> So on an e-cycle scale where a=base=440 Hz, a_3 = (440*e^3) Hz (which is probably beyond typical human hearing, but still in range)
08:52:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh, for playing text you have to get creative. For the moment, I just write the name as a series of notes and play it directly.
08:53:23 <myname> so you could express anything normal with a_sqrt...
08:54:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think human hearing goes up a bit more than that hth
08:54:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, but you don't usually hear anything in that range
08:54:47 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and finally, if you write H<float> (instead of n or n_p), it plays that float value literally
08:57:14 <myname> well, you could play each column of a text file at the same time
08:57:26 <oerjan> > 12*logBase 2 (exp (1/26))
08:57:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That's one idea, but I already have it setup where newlines are just skipped
08:57:49 <oerjan> hm that's pretty close to 2/3 of an ordinary half-note
08:57:59 <oerjan> you might actually be able to play nicely
08:58:17 <hppavilion[1]> (...and I have no clue what syntax I'll wind up using. All the nice ones (e.g. a chord of a,b,c written [a b c] or something) can't be implemented with my current setup)
08:58:29 <HackEgo> 314) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand.
08:59:43 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should've `addquoted shachaf's thing about Niezs... nietsch... fuck it, he's Neetzhah from now on...
09:00:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: 18 letters distance is very close to an ordinary octave
09:04:28 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], this is going to annoy anyone with perfect pitch
09:05:20 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: If they believe that the notes used on a piano are the only 12 notes that exist, they're in for a rather rude awakening
09:05:28 <shachaf> Taneb: what about a person with perfect pooch
09:05:40 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], it's more the ratios between them
09:06:05 <hppavilion[1]> Perfect pitch is when you can identify a note given only that note
09:06:39 <hppavilion[1]> Relative pitch is when you get two notes a and b, they tell you 'a is a C' and you can say what b is
09:06:43 <Taneb> It's still going to sound annoyingly dissonant to people with sensitive hearing
09:07:00 <hppavilion[1]> (god, giving notes algebraic names is really fucking annoying)
09:07:35 <shachaf> Taneb: equal temperament is the best
09:07:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: however, afaict neither a third, a fourth or a fifth ordinary interval is a whole number of letters apart :P
09:08:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um i used e
09:08:58 <Taneb> > 26 * logBase ((sqrt 5 + 1) / 2) 2
09:11:25 * hppavilion[1] waits for someone to point out the flaws with a -2 cycle
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09:12:18 <HackEgo> Your venerated itymologist knite gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
09:12:34 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your venerated itymologist gnite gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
09:12:56 <HackEgo> gan hart timat wangler schurm seudiek mir nortlein see worswy
09:13:56 <Taneb> At least two, possibly 5 of those are words!
09:14:33 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
09:14:47 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them. hppavilion[1] uninvented them.
09:15:26 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions: math//s#the reals#string diagrams, &#
09:15:30 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
09:15:44 <shachaf> Taneb: Oh, you invented string diagrams?
09:15:55 <shachaf> Can you answer questions about them?
09:16:22 <Taneb> shachaf, I can give it a shot, but I'm a bit distracted right now
09:16:41 <Taneb> A 1961 paper on equivalence relations
09:18:24 <Taneb> "An Algorithm for Equivalence Declarations", by Arden, Galler, and Graham
09:20:18 <shachaf> is this paper even online twh
09:20:49 <Taneb> I hope it is, otherwise I am hallucinating quite badly
09:22:40 <Taneb> I've got it through ACM's digital library
09:23:42 <shachaf> That reminds me of my question the other day: Is there a good online algorithm for strongly connected components?
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09:40:17 <Cale> shachaf: I can sort of imagine one which partitions the graph and keeps around a tree of the results for subparts so that when you remove an edge, you haven't lost all the previously completed work
09:44:26 <shachaf> Well, there's a great answer for undirected graphs.
09:49:29 <shachaf> I can't think of a way to do something similar for directed graphs, though.
09:53:15 <HackEgo> sweden//Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
09:53:19 <lifthrasiir> I cannot concentrate because of everything happening in my country
09:53:22 <HackEgo> algebraic chess notation//Algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess.
09:53:34 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: which country?
09:53:49 <lifthrasiir> well, Koera sounds like a name of some animal
09:54:15 <Taneb> lifthrasiir, what is happening?
09:54:45 <lifthrasiir> I cannot coherently describe all the matter, so I will refer to /r/korea comment https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/593x2a/eli5_can_someone_explain_the_whole_corruption/
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09:56:32 <Taneb> Major corruption scandal?
09:57:53 <\oren\> what, another one, this time in Korea? is there not a single honest politician on the planet left?
09:57:59 <lifthrasiir> Taneb: it turned out that the current president (PGH) was related to an external personnel, who received and backed virtually everything about the country
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09:58:49 <lifthrasiir> there were tons of rumors about that personnel for a long time but now it is nearly confirmed, even partially by the president herself
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10:00:11 <lifthrasiir> PGH was already known for her incoherent speeches and strange endeavors but no one was sure why she does so, until this incident
10:01:04 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: one even calls the current gov't as shamanism gov't, because the personnel was related to the new religion movement as well
10:01:58 <lifthrasiir> well, not even proper NRM because it was closer to the shamanism indeed
10:02:05 <\oren\> uh-oh, that sounds even worse than your normal, old fashioned corporate corruption
10:03:46 <lifthrasiir> I've come to appreciate the robustness of bureaucracy, the country was able to survive this amount of absurdness for past 4 years
10:06:40 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: the personnel was living in Germany, communicating with PGH (or closest persons) via a personal email, and ran out shortly before the reporters tried to contact her; the compelling evidences was found in a computer around other wastes
10:07:22 <lifthrasiir> so it's essentially country-level confidence information found in a dumping ground
10:13:21 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: hahahaha, my reporter friend sent me this tweet https://twitter.com/allyjung/status/790831548308205568
10:13:54 <lifthrasiir> this IS pretty much close to the truth (wrt current evidences)
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10:22:39 <HackEgo> Algebraic chess? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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11:13:14 <izalove> https://libreboot.org/gnu/
11:21:56 <hppavilion[1]> Whelp, now I have to spend the next several months awaiting MOAR ponies
11:22:23 <ybden> izalove: which bit in particular?
11:23:32 <izalove> the part where the fsf fired a transgender woman, the part where they claim that libreboot is still a gnu project against the maintainer's will...
11:30:40 <Jafet> the latter seems legally valid. the former seems like how most large nonprofits are run.
11:34:24 <ybden> Hm, howso (regarding the latter)? I'd have expected that they would be able to leave the larger GNU project if they wanted
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11:37:29 <izalove> fsf requires you to transfer them the copyright on your code
11:37:50 <izalove> so it's legally valid but still a shitty move
11:41:49 <ybden> I forgot about that...
11:42:05 <ybden> Not great with morals
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11:49:48 <HackEgo> cello//The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
11:51:22 <izalove> what does that have to do with python or haskell?
11:52:16 * izalove has strong opinions on their garbage collector
11:56:35 <ybden> izalove: it is a c library...
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11:57:36 <Taneb> I once forgot what bin men were called
11:57:58 <Taneb> Doing roughly 50% of a computer science degree, the only term I could think of was "garbage collector"
11:58:34 <hppavilion[1]> I want to play scrabble with Randall Munroe now...
11:59:16 <HackEgo> Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files.
12:01:00 <boily> you're on the wrong coast hth
12:02:28 <Taneb> That means it's lunchtime here!
12:05:31 <boily> I'm an Approximal Coördinatist.
12:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> It IS a bit ironic to criticize prescriptivists, isn't it...
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12:39:59 <int-e> böily lives a dangeroüs life
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12:49:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants/Ordered]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50037 * Mroman * (+31697) constants ordered by cycles, length, cells.
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14:07:25 <lynn> izalove: That libreboot thing is awful, the FSF creeps me out :(
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15:08:12 <quintopia> @tell boily aubergine/self-modifying BF mashup done
15:10:37 <ybden> izalove: you linked those parallel pastes in here, right?
15:11:39 <ybden> or was it elsewhere...
15:11:46 <ybden> no, you linked the libreboot thing in here
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16:19:54 <b_jonas> --irreversible-delete is a funny option name
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17:22:14 <\oren\> Taneb, they call them the garbage men here in Canada, not "bin men"
17:24:23 <\oren\> also, we call it a "garbage can" not a "bin"
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18:31:48 <hppavilion[1]> Linguistic prank: Create a cats-cats merger and teats it to your tsildren
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18:36:56 <\oren\> yU mEn a cats - catC mRjR?
18:38:21 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: linguistic changes don't do swaps. chains of 3 or 4 are known though
18:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It can't do swaps naturally. This is artificial
18:39:23 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Is it done by compounding mergers and splitters?
18:41:21 <\oren\> also chains that aren't closed, like Grimm's law
18:42:29 <\oren\> aspirated voiced stop -> voiced unaspirated stop -> unvoiced stop -> fricative
18:43:09 <\oren\> it's the sound law that made the Germanic family sound so different from the Romance family
18:43:41 <b_jonas> you can get somewhat close to a swap in multiple steps
18:45:11 <\oren\> izalove: I don't watch american tv much
18:45:15 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you need two sounds that are distinguished in multiple dimensions, and a listener that cares more about some dimension different than the speaker, and the speaker changing the dimension the listener cares about a bit
18:45:36 <izalove> \oren\: that's your problem!
18:45:59 <izalove> they have no luke perry so no
18:46:07 <\oren\> Genre: Teen Drama, Soap Opera... oh dear
18:48:22 <hppavilion[1]> (Can't come up with a joke about the TV watching you though...)
18:48:44 <hppavilion[1]> Oceana TVs are made by a company called Abyss, Inc.
18:52:40 <\oren\> Bah. Oh. I see a 1991 NYT article that describes Luke Perry as a "heartthrob"
18:53:10 <\oren\> and I was -2 years old
18:54:00 <\oren\> hey that's an idea. negative ages!
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18:55:54 <int-e> 'twas the year 2 b.o.
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19:05:53 <HackEgo> companion cube//There's cake inside it. Tear it apart, rip open your companion, and extract the delicious, delicious cake...
19:06:23 * Zarutian is hunted by Portal refererences.
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19:09:16 <int-e> Zarutian: but are you also haunted by your companion cube (euthanized)?
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19:30:59 <HackEgo> gostak//The gostak distims the doshes.
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19:43:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eamanu * New user account
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19:47:51 <\oren\> the tower of coffee cups on my desk is almost above the cubicle wall
19:50:53 <hppavilion[1]> God, there's this one region of my screen where the mouse doesn't detect anything for no apparent reason
19:51:02 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if there's a hidden overlay there or something
19:51:35 <hppavilion[1]> Which happens to be the region where Firefox's scrollbar is
19:52:14 <Zarutian> so, you cant go for a scroll, eh?
19:52:51 <hppavilion[1]> (If I click outside the region, it still holds, so the button is still registered as pressed- it's just that if I click there it doesn't catch it)
19:53:00 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: what other thinks are open?
19:53:54 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Windows I can see are Firefox, two Windows Explorers, Notepad++, two Bash instances, Hexchat, several PyCharm windows, and task manager
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19:56:13 <hppavilion[1]> Background stuff (or, well, whatever is handled at the lower right corner) is Lenovo Transition (which I just launched to see if that was part of the issue), Intel Rapid Storage, Webroot, Mercurial, Bluetooth, WD Quick View, and battery/volume/wifi
19:57:16 <hppavilion[1]> (It's possible it's something physical on the touchscreen, but I've thoroughly wiped down the affected region)
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20:12:05 <Taneb> I am going to regret basically just eating bread today in the morning
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20:15:00 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( `le/rn Existential Quantifier/The existential quantifier is what happens when you have an unstressed vowel at the beginning of a sentence )
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20:22:22 <HackEgo> grep: invalid argument ‘import’ for ‘--directories’ \ Valid arguments are: \ - ‘read’ \ - ‘recurse’ \ - ‘skip’ \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
20:22:47 <HackEgo> wisdom/hexham \ wisdom/reflection \ wisdom/umlaut
20:22:52 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
20:23:40 <HackEgo> Umlaut is German for "hum aloud", an important feature of the German language. It is indicated by putting two dots over the vowel of the syllable.
20:23:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/indonesia \ wisdom/reflection
20:23:56 <HackEgo> Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord.
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20:38:38 <hppavilion[1]> I've been wondering for a while why parents can love an adopted child as much as a biological one given the lack of the child carrying their genes
20:39:52 <hppavilion[1]> (Note: I know for a fact that they CAN and DO love adopted children exactly the same- my sister is very adopted, and my father even has a joke where he says [to me] "Just because you're my biological child, doesn't mean I love you any less"- but I'm trying understand *why* it happens
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20:42:00 <hppavilion[1]> And it just occurred to me that it makes perfect sense if you accept that there is *any* degree of Nurture in Nature vs. Nurture (which you have to; at this point, it's a debate of "Some mostly nurture but some nature vs. just nurture")
20:43:27 <hppavilion[1]> Because memetics- someone need not be your offspring to acquire your memes. While adopted children will not pass on your genes, they will carry and spread your memes, which need not be carried that way.
20:50:38 <HackEgo> U+201A SINGLE LOW-9 QUOTATION MARK \ UTF-8: e2 80 9a UTF-16BE: 201a Decimal: ‚ \ ‚ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+002C COMMA \ UTF-8: 2c UTF-16BE: 002c Decimal: , \ , \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: CS (Common Number Separator)
20:51:56 <HackEgo> rainbow//Rainbows are spectral creatures said to be powered by the Daystar.
20:52:06 <HackEgo> 1268) <shachaf> pikhq: The Google way isn't exactly NIH. They have their own variant of it.
20:52:15 <HackEgo> 160) Thanks to nooga for constructive criticism, his ideas and being a constant annoyance. --http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/
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20:52:23 <HackEgo> 458) <elliott> I MIGHT BECOME GHOST
20:52:28 <HackEgo> 1235) <Taneb> Over the weekend I got asked what I was cosplaying no less than 5 times [...] <Taneb> I was, in fact, not cosplaying
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21:38:06 <Taneb> That was a fun weekend
21:39:53 <Zarutian> Taneb: have you truely met her or only be in close personal proximity?
21:40:14 <Taneb> Zarutian, she stopped me in a corridor and said my fleece was nice
21:40:37 <Taneb> Zarutian, that was the extent of our interaction
21:41:21 <Taneb> So, somewhere between the tw
21:43:49 <HackEgo> 388) <oklopol> you know that thing in the movies where they put a pillow on someone's face and try to suffocate them <oklopol> that doesn't work. <oklopol> we tried that with my ex once, but we just couldn't kill each other that way
21:45:38 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:45:39 <Zarutian> „If you look long enough at something then you will see something.“ -Blantantly Obvious
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21:45:53 <shachaf> Taneb is perhaps more of a goat.
21:46:16 <Taneb> shachaf, to my knowledge I am neither a goat nor a sheep
21:46:26 <shachaf> `? people who taneb is not
21:46:27 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
21:47:10 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you think the dairy industry is something I can continue to be complicit in?
21:47:27 <Taneb> shachaf, yeah, sure, go for it
21:47:35 <Taneb> I was considering getting a glass of milk myself
21:47:38 <Zarutian> shachat: only if you keep writing about your days with milk
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22:04:33 <HackEgo> Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people.
22:05:09 <lynn> Can someone make a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splay_tree dual joke so I don't have to
22:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> Given a the bag X = fact(x) representing the prime factorization of a nonzero natural number, calculate the prime bag of that number's successor (without just doing fact(product(X)+1))
22:08:06 <hppavilion[1]> Equivalently, how are the prime factorizations of consecutive nonzero naturals related?
22:09:34 <Taneb> Do I get a glass of orange juice or a glass of milk
22:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: As in it's an open problem or known to be unsolvable?
22:10:13 <hppavilion[1]> (Is this one of those things that seems simple enough, but solving it immediately leads to a proof of the Riemann Hypothesis?)
22:10:30 <shachaf> It's not stated well enough to be open or closed.
22:10:50 <wob_jonas> fungot, can you make a Splay tree dual joke so lynn doesn't have to?
22:10:50 <fungot> wob_jonas: i don't like country or whatever :) fnord
22:11:50 <Taneb> I guess orange juice it is
22:12:36 <hppavilion[1]> (A bag, bearing in mind, is essentially a set with counting; so fact(1500) = {2:2, 3:1, 5:3} (3:1 could just be written "3"))
22:13:21 <shachaf> A positive natural number is a bag of primes.
22:14:17 <Taneb> My favourite thing about that representation is you can extend it with multiple zeros
22:14:51 <\oren\> you can drink orange juice mixed with milk if you drink it fast
22:14:58 <Taneb> Well, zero is the supremum in the divisibility lattice
22:15:32 <Taneb> So if you treat a bag of primes as a function from prime to N \union {infinity}
22:15:53 <HackEgo> Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people.
22:16:12 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: Taneb: I normally use the notation [2,2,3,5,5,5]
22:16:29 <HackEgo> <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ <oerjän> revert \ <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ <Bik̈e> revert \ <FreeFul̈l> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ <ellioẗt> revert 2416 \ <Sgëo> revert 2243 \ <Tanë
22:16:32 <shachaf> That looks more like a list.
22:16:37 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I prefer to use [] exclusively for order and {} exclusively for non-order
22:16:40 <ais523> not in a mathematical paper
22:16:47 <ais523> a list would be 2::2::3::5::5::5
22:16:54 <shachaf> ais523: You should use ⟅2,2,3,5,5,5⟆
22:17:14 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: [2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 5] means exactly the same thing it seems
22:17:14 <lynn> shachaf: Those bag brackets ♥
22:17:14 <ais523> but the notation somehow ended up as array notation in programming languages, rather than multiset like it is in mathematical papers
22:19:21 <\oren\> evil idea: revert every changw whose hash contains a f
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22:22:32 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Also, bear in mind that no matter what brackets you use, a v:c notation (optimally in conjunction with v v v ... [c]) is a more friendly notation if the multiplicities are any larger than 4 (so you have to actually count), large in general (so you spend 5 pages on 2s), or if you want to create multiplicity from a non-constant (e.g. saying that n^2 has factorization {val v: 2*(mul v) | v in fact(n)})
22:23:29 <wob_jonas> shouldn't bag brackets be something like c[ ... ] because the c is the handle of the bag?
22:23:44 <wob_jonas> but with the c touching the bracket
22:23:55 <\oren\> another idea: a programming language where the xompiler reads the change history of the file and modifies the assembly code for each change in the code
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22:24:41 <hppavilion[1]> I have two conflicting ideas for what brackets to use in bags; on one hand, they're a different thing so we shouldn't use the same, but similar enough that it should be apparent they're related- so I like ⦃⦄
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22:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> But on the other hand, you could argue that a set is a bag where mul(v) = 0 or mul(v) = 1
22:26:15 <wob_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the c should be moved closer to the [ so they touch. it's the handle of the bag.
22:27:22 <hppavilion[1]> Bags generalize the sets the same way rationals generalize integers, so why write it differently? If you only want sets, say "s in \bb{St}"
22:27:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Where St is the set of all sets, but isn't *really* because that leads to a contradiction pretty fast)
22:28:31 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I kind of want to make it symmetrical though. And to make the brackets curved like parentheses so it still has an analogy to {}
22:29:44 <wob_jonas> wob_jonas: if you want it symmetric, then use a bag with two handles, like c[ ... ]ɔ
22:29:48 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking a nice, fancymath looking notation would be a parenthesis that has a small break at the midline with a handle curving around connecting on opposite sides of the break (far enough past that there's an overhang after the handle connects but before the break)
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22:35:55 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn flu shot/flu shots are usually available from some time in the first half of November
22:35:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'flu shot': flu shots are usually available from some time in the first half of November
22:36:18 <wob_jonas> so I don't have to look it up next year when to start asking the pharmacies whether they have it yet
22:36:46 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: They apparently already have one for it
22:37:02 <wob_jonas> nah, it will be really bad in January
22:37:10 <wob_jonas> that's why the flu shot is available before that time
22:40:25 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Oh? How do they know it'll be bad in January?
22:40:39 <wob_jonas> hpp: it's bad in January and February every year
22:41:08 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, do you mean that the current strain of the flu's properties will add up to very badness in January weather?
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22:42:20 <wob_jonas> hpp: not really the properties, it's that in January and February, many other people will have the flu, so it will be too easy to catch the flu yourself, unless you are vaccinated, in which case it's not so easy
22:47:58 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: But my father works in a hospital laboratory (where they handle bloodwork and urine analysis (which you just pronounce "urinalysis" or you get funny looks, appparently)), and he said (according to my mother) that the flu is particularly nasty this year
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22:51:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: iwsdom: not found
22:51:23 <HackEgo> postorder//Postorder is the same as Polish notation, since Post was Polish. Not to be confused with reverse Polish notation, which is postfix.
22:51:29 <lambdabot> quintopia said 7h 43m 15s ago: aubergine/self-modifying BF mashup done
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22:57:53 <FearFly> you should don a seasonal nickname too
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22:58:32 <FearFly> that is almost unreasonably easy to pun
22:58:45 <FearFly> I think FearFly isn't all that good
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22:59:41 <boily> izellove. are you spooky?
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23:02:53 <HackEgo> ubuntu1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:03:15 <izalove> i need to teach weechat to highlight me on all the variations of my nickname
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23:20:26 <boily> he\\oren\. spooked?
23:20:26 <\oren\> terminate called after throwing an instance of char *
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23:22:30 <\oren\> why can't people just throw actual exceptions and not c strings!
23:23:08 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Ptc3X8WiA
23:23:11 <ais523> I remember that back when I was learning C++
23:23:18 <ais523> I threw an integer just to see what would happen
23:23:41 <ais523> hmm, what's your opinion on Java's rule of only allowing things to be thrown if they inherit from Throwable?
23:23:53 <wob_jonas> well, there's like three reasons why a throw can call terminate: uncaught exception, exception thrown out of a noexcept function, exception thrown during unrolling.
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23:24:45 <ais523> huh, I didn't even think of the exception thrown during unrolling case
23:24:51 <\oren\> right but this message doesn't tell me what the char * was, where it was thrown from, or literally anything whatsoever
23:24:55 <ais523> does that end the program or just discard the first exception?
23:26:15 <wob_jonas> you can install a terminate handler that does something, but you can't return from that handler
23:26:35 <wob_jonas> and actually there's more than three ways
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23:26:45 <wob_jonas> http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/error/terminate lists all of the ways
23:26:48 <ais523> can you throw out of terminate?
23:27:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: probably no. I think the function calling the terminate handler is noexcept or something
23:27:34 -!- MoALTz has joined.
23:27:43 <ais523> what about using an actual longjmp? I imagine that'd make the C++ standards weep in pain
23:28:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure of the rules, but basically terminate is called in cases when the normal state of the program is screwed up so much that you can't continue it, so even if you could longjmp back to the normal stack, you would get undefined behavior
23:29:57 <wob_jonas> I haven't actually tried to understand the rules of what a custom terminate handler is allowed to do, because at that point you're screwed anyway so the default terminate handler which just aborts is always the right one
23:30:35 <wob_jonas> I don't even know why they have a new function for it instead of just calling abort rightaway
23:31:19 <wob_jonas> (abort can still be handled with a signal handler, but obviously you're not allowed to do much from there either)
23:31:51 <olsner> \oren\: reminds me of icecc (the distributed compile thing) which used 'int' for all exceptions
23:32:24 <olsner> they recently switched to exceptions with actual messages though
23:33:02 <fizzie> My former university's speech recognition system threw around char *s, I think.
23:33:30 <ais523> I wrote a Java program which throws an IntegerException at one point
23:33:32 <fizzie> No, actually they throw std::string's.
23:33:35 <ais523> which is just an Exception with an int field
23:33:40 <fizzie> I wonder if that's changed recently.
23:33:49 <ais523> but it's meant as a fairly literal translation from C, and that's how I translated a setjmp/longjmp pair
23:34:54 <fizzie> Seems to have been std::string always.
23:35:16 <ais523> can terminate stringify a std::string?
23:35:27 <ais523> I guess not, there's no consistent way to stringify things in C++
23:35:31 -!- moony has joined.
23:35:37 <ais523> and you can't locate stringification functions another way because a char * is not necessarily a string
23:36:21 <fizzie> Also there's a number of cases of throw str::fmt(128, "blah blah: %d", some_integer); where namespace str { std::string fmt(size_t size, const char *fmt, ...); }
23:36:51 <ais523> is anything catching these strings? and if so, does it just show them to the user?
23:36:54 <wob_jonas> Who needs error handling? I just call abort() for any error.
23:37:15 <ais523> incidentally, in Perl 5, throwing strings seems to be idiomatic
23:37:16 <fizzie> ais523: Yes and yes, though I only looked at actual command-line programs.
23:37:27 <ais523> some of the built-in functions do it
23:37:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: exit() is normally better if there's any possibility that it's user error rather than an internal logic error
23:37:57 <ais523> abort() is more like NetHack's panic()
23:40:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: I usually print an error message before aborting
23:43:23 <ais523> wob_jonas: well abort() dumps core and can lead to a bunch of internal debug information being dumped to the screen
23:45:03 -!- ubuntu1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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23:55:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, technically exit is usually better for a user error
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23:59:10 <HackEgo> can't//can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand draft enhance example fast father glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task
23:59:43 <fungot> boily: i don't really talk about it.
23:59:53 <boily> \oren\: we don't really talk about it.
00:03:02 <\oren\> wait, there are people who pronounce father with an a?
00:04:14 <\oren\> /fæðəɹ/. I can't even...
00:04:29 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: If they exist, they won't for much longer.
00:04:37 <\oren\> who the hell says fæðəɹ?
00:04:51 * boily thwacks hppavilion[1]. “don't wish unexistence upon people.”
00:05:12 <boily> hppavellon[1]. "can" is /kæn/ hth.
00:05:42 <hppavilion[1]> boily: And "can't" is [kænt], but apparently some people do it wrong
00:05:44 <boily> \oren\: that's quite unusual indeed.
00:06:34 <\oren\> I say all those words with a /æ/ except /fɑðəɹ/.
00:07:12 <wob_jonas> "can" is always with an /æ/. "can't" shoud be pronounecd with /ɑː/ but in most dialects it's pronounced to /æ/ which makes "can't" and "can" sound exactly the same in some cases depending on the word after it, such as in "can't do"
00:07:33 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:07:54 <boily> what was that sound record website again?
00:08:25 <\oren\> wob_jonas: except that in 'can do' it ends up being 'kən'
00:09:43 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. No es tan cluecless.
00:09:55 <HackEgo> The 1 is just for disambiguation.
00:10:37 <oerjan> . o O ( does the "varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/" apply to both a's in "advance"? )
00:11:42 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I'm not really authority here, but I think it only applies to the second vowel, whereas the first vowel is always an unstressed schwa
00:11:52 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And before you say it, idnm [feɪ ðəɹ] tdnh
00:12:23 <hppavilion[1]> How does one tdh/tdnh something that hasn't happened yet?
00:12:38 <boily> oerjan: /ædvn̩s/ hth.
00:13:04 <boily> hppavilion[1]: iwhonh hth
00:14:58 <boily> It Will Help Or Not Help hth
00:15:50 <oerjan> `learn Queuestack is when you're confused about whether something should be a queue or a stack, and end up with a complete mess. See https://xkcd.com/954/ .
00:15:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'queuestack': Queuestack is when you're confused about whether something should be a queue or a stack, and end up with a complete mess. See https://xkcd.com/954/ .
00:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe twhh (that would have helped) and twnhh (that would not have helped)
00:17:24 <wob_jonas> I once made a mysterious hard to debug error in a program where I wrote a buffer that was supposed to be a queue but was actually implemented as a stack, and then the error only came up in the uncommon case when the buffer had more than one element
00:19:38 <oerjan> <boily> oerjan: /ædvn̩s/ hth. <-- tdnhaa
00:19:52 -!- wanderman has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:20:54 <wob_jonas> oerjan: well, maybe it's stressed on the first syllable when it's an adjective but on the second syllable when it's a verb? how could I know. stranger things have happened in English.
00:24:19 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i don't recall that for this word.
00:25:21 <fungot> boily: yeah. i've seen him do all kinds of problems.
00:25:23 <wob_jonas> yes, my dictionary says it's always stressed on the second syllable
00:25:49 <wob_jonas> although it only mentions the verb and the noun, not the adjective
00:26:08 <wob_jonas> ah, it does mention the adjective, in the noun heading
00:34:12 <HackEgo> string diagrams? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:34:52 <oerjan> `le/rn String diagram/String diagrams would be useful in category theory, except they're unreadable due to being curled up in tiny dimensions.
00:34:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'string diagram': String diagrams would be useful in category theory, except they're unreadable due to being curled up in tiny dimensions.
00:35:09 <oerjan> `le/rn String diagram/String diagrams would be useful in category theory, except they're unreadable due to being curled up in tiny dimensions. Taneb invented them anyhow.
00:35:11 <HackEgo> Relearned 'string diagram': String diagrams would be useful in category theory, except they're unreadable due to being curled up in tiny dimensions. Taneb invented them anyhow.
00:35:28 -!- augur has joined.
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00:37:58 <boily> good to see Taneb is as prolific as ever.
00:40:12 <shachaf> oerjan: remember the dark ages before `le/rn? hth
00:41:05 <boily> `` ls wisdom/*brow*
00:41:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/browser \ wisdom/eyebrow
00:41:12 <HackEgo> Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature.
00:43:15 <shachaf> are Taneb's eyebrows knottable?
00:43:38 <oerjan> shachaf: we had to write wisdoms while walking through 7 feet of snow. upwards both ways!
00:44:28 <oerjan> Taneb: have you tried an eyebrow afro twh
00:44:37 <boily> `learn Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature. Their knots can walk uphill through seven feet of snow.
00:44:41 <HackEgo> Relearned 'eyebrow': Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature. Their knots can walk uphill through seven feet of snow.
00:45:06 <shachaf> boily: that makes no sense tdnh
00:46:47 <oerjan> it's knot a very good pun.
00:47:11 <boily> I just understood the palm.
00:47:58 * boily thwackthwackthwack shachaf. 0.76 Sh.
00:48:18 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:48:53 <HackEgo> 2016-10-25 <shachäf> revert \ 2016-10-25 <boil̈y> learn Eyebrows are Taneb\'s most notable feature. Their knots can walk uphill through seven feet of snow. \ 2016-10-25 <oerjän> le/rn String diagram/String diagrams would be useful in category theory, except they\'re unreadable due to being curled up in tiny dimensions. Taneb invented them anyh
00:49:31 <oerjan> Gregor doesn't seem to have applied the `revert patch yet.
00:50:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think the current state of `canary is relevant to that bug.
00:50:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: canary: not found
00:50:31 <HackEgo> ./canary: line 1: EEP: command not found
00:50:34 <oerjan> it's a file that was created long ago, inside the .hg directory.
00:50:53 <shachaf> HackEgo is messing up my terminal
00:51:08 <oerjan> probably as a consequence of the _other_ bugs fizzie was fixing in the same patch.
00:51:09 <shachaf> How about a patch that uses instead of a zero-width space at the beginning of a line?
00:51:43 <oerjan> that might indeed help.
00:52:05 <oerjan> since it's not about nickpinging, the problems with ^O don't apply there.
00:52:36 <oerjan> @you're not reacting to this, are you?
00:52:47 <hppavilion[1]> "Find an algorithm that takes arbitrary love polyhedra and checks for resolutions"
00:53:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, my pull request is still open.
00:54:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hm what's a resolution? what prevents the obvious "everyone just join together" solution?
00:54:58 <oerjan> in other words, there needs to be disallowed pairs. or polytopes.
00:55:10 <boily> there's a solution iff there's a Hamiltonian path.
00:55:34 <oerjan> boily: that would be an interesting sexual more...
00:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> A resolution (under a certain set of constraints; other constraints are perfectly valid) is a way of choosing pairs (a, b) from the digraph where a -> b AND b -> a, where each can only be used once out of all the pairs
00:57:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't sound very sensitive to polyamorists tdnh
00:57:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's the other possible constraints which are perfectly valid
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00:57:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But this is TV and movies, where polyamory is only for comedy or porn
00:58:16 <shachaf> oerjan: i seem to remember that you were being similarly insensitive in here a while ago hth
00:58:34 <shachaf> or were you? maybe you were just saying that it was weird, and also a berkeley thing
00:58:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: wait, this is a digraph? i was assuming you were at _least_ not assuming heteronormality or else it makes no sense to ... argh
00:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Genders of people on the graph are irrelevant; it's assumed that somebody who is gay never has an arrow to the opposite sex
00:59:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: digraph implies that the nodes are divided into two groups.
00:59:47 <oerjan> with no internal edges in the group.
01:00:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Digraphs edges can be reciprocal, can't they?
01:00:33 <fizzie> There's sort of two related bugs when it comes to the `revert cleanup thing; one is that it doesn't expect directories, and the other is that it descends down to the .hg directory.
01:00:37 <fizzie> Fortunately they sort-of partially cancel out, in that the only files with a ".orig" suffix in .hg can be directories (normal files get a .i suffix), and those won't get removed because they are directories.
01:01:05 <hppavilion[1]> The graph of people is genderless with an arrow a -> b iff a would be satisfied in a relationship with b
01:01:10 -!- moony has joined.
01:01:19 <moony> `` ./canary canary
01:01:19 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....'@.....@.......Ã..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø................. ...8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....½......½........ ............à½......à½`.....à½`.....¼ ......°........ ...........ø½......ø½`.....ø½`.....à.......à.............. ..
01:01:45 <HackEgo> \ canary: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .init: \ \ 00000000004016f8 <.init>: \ 4016f8:48 83 ec 08 sub $0x8,%rsp \ 4016fc:e8 43 10 00 00 callq 402744 <__sprintf_chk@plt+0xbf4> \ 401701:48 83 c4 08 add $0x8,%rsp \ 401705:c3 retq \ \ Disassembly of
01:01:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: There's no rules for which a and b can have a -> b, except that a ≠ b
01:02:16 <ais523> `` objdump -d canary | paste
01:02:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.28713
01:02:31 <oerjan> sorry, i'm mixing up the meaning of digraph and bigraph again. wtf did they have to choose that abbreviation...
01:02:35 * moony had a ruined uffer
01:03:07 <hppavilion[1]> The optimality of a resolution R- represented as the set of disjoint {a, b} sets- is (by this definition, at least) |P|-2|R|, where P is the set of all people in the graph
01:03:09 <moony> how do i hardclean a weechat buffer? mine has artifacts all over
01:03:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:03:21 <moony> `` objdump -d canary | pase
01:03:22 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: pase: command not found
01:03:24 <moony> `` objdump -d canary | paste
01:03:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.9031
01:03:34 <shachaf> Are you modifying HackEgo in /msg again?
01:03:41 <shachaf> I think you've been requested not to do that.
01:03:47 <ais523> oh, I see, it has no debug symbols, so it's measuring everything relative to sprintf
01:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> (the worst possible resolution is always {}, the best possible resolution is where a happy relationship can be found for ALL people)
01:03:58 <ais523> which is the nearest thing it knows the address of
01:05:18 <ais523> you know, I have the suspicion that the canary is a copy of a standard, maybe GNU, executable
01:05:19 <HackEgo> cat (GNU coreutils) 8.13 \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Torbjörn Granlund and Richard M. Stallman.
01:05:30 <ais523> well, I think that settles it :-P
01:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: For polyamory, it depends on the exact properties of polyamory in this consideration, which decides how to model it (some scenarios require hyperdigraphs)
01:05:33 <HackEgo> Usage: ./canary [OPTION]... [FILE]... \ Concatenate FILE(s), or standard input, to standard output. \ \ -A, --show-all equivalent to -vET \ -b, --number-nonblank number nonempty output lines, overrides -n \ -e equivalent to -vE \ -E, --show-ends display $ at end of each line \ -n, --number
01:05:42 <shachaf> Can you take all this bot spam somewhere else?
01:05:44 <fizzie> ais523: "<moony> ` cp /bin/cat canary" settled it pretty well already.
01:06:06 <ais523> fizzie: well yes, but that's boring, I realised I could figure it out via checking the history
01:06:09 <ais523> but reverse engineering is more fun
01:06:40 <jeffl35> shachaf: how does it mess up your term, anyways?
01:07:19 <fungot> boily: on that darthmouth page: http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ fnord
01:07:35 <fizzie> Fun fact: HackEgo repo has bloated to 700 megs already.
01:08:39 <hppavilion[1]> But really, how DOES polyamory work? Obviously there are exceptions, but it's one of (1) everybody in the relationship must reciprocally like everyone else (2) everybody in the relationship must note hate everyone else (which requires labeling edges) or (3) everybody has one or more sets of possible compatibility, which is the most complicated
01:08:44 <ais523> well people do silly things like downloading large files into it
01:09:01 <fizzie> Yes, I was including history.
01:09:08 <HackEgo> 74476paste \ 54456share \ 37456src \ 30280interps \ 18036bin \ 10316lib \ 10244factor \ 5264wisdom \ 1676ply-3.8 \ 1444wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ 460wisdom.pdf \ 172ibin \ 152quotes \ 80tmflry \ 52hw \ 52canary \ 44emoticons \ 32quines \ 24good \ 24esobible \ 20tmp \ 20out \ 12misle \ 12etc \ 8le \ 8evil \ 4karma \ 4cdescs
01:09:24 <boily> is there a “git gc” for mercurial?
01:09:39 <hppavilion[1]> With (3), you get things like "I'd do it with A and B, and I'd do it with C and D, and with A and D or A and C, but I wouldn't with B and C or B and D"
01:10:42 <fizzie> There's a bunch of ten-megabyte pastes.
01:10:49 <ais523> real-life relationships are much more complicated because "I don't know whether a relationship with A would work out or not" is not only a compatibility that exists, but the most common
01:11:16 <ais523> hmm, are there any infinitely large webpages?
01:11:20 <ais523> there's got to be one by now, surely
01:11:22 * boily votes for [X] EXPUNGE ALL THE LARGE FILES!!!
01:11:29 <ais523> (I don't think anything in the HTTP protocol requires a web page to be finitely large)
01:11:54 <imode> so, I've created a static mirror of the c2 wiki.
01:12:01 <imode> because ward cunningham is hell-bent on ruining it.
01:12:21 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: making an HTTP request to it causes the read half of the resulting socket to allow arbitrarily many bytes to be read from it
01:12:31 <boily> imhellode. who's ward cunningham?
01:12:42 <imode> boily: guy who made the first wiki.
01:13:21 <HackEgo> 2016-10-25 <moon̈y> ` cp /bin/cat canary \ 2016-10-15 <oerjän> mk canary//EEP \ 2016-10-05 <moonythedwar̈f> ` mv ls canary \ 2016-09-26 <oerjän> revert \ 2016-09-26 <oerjän> sled canary//crabbit \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-08-02 <int-̈e> ` echo -n ribbit > canary \ 2016-06-0
01:13:25 <fizzie> ais523: There's any number of things that just stream infinitely as a response of a GET request.
01:13:53 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like it's probably a law of compression algorithms that "if it's possible to make a file [series of bytes] the algorithm won't accept, you're doing it wrong"
01:14:09 <shachaf> ais523: What if it's a web page with infinite scroll that makes repeated small HTTP requests?
01:14:12 <fizzie> Including internet radio stations and such.
01:14:50 <ais523> shachaf: I'm still disappointed at the existence of AJAX, so prefer to not have to worry about its existence
01:14:51 <boily> shachaf: there was that ASCII horse page with infinite legs. can't find it :/
01:15:06 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, what alternative would you prefer?
01:15:19 <boily> FOUND! http://endless.horse/
01:15:26 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: And I assume you also exclude finite pages containing client-side scripting?
01:15:29 <ais523> shachaf: depends on what it's used for
01:15:35 <ais523> server-side HTML tree diffing would be nice
01:15:40 <imode> endless horse. lmao.
01:15:49 <ais523> as in, you make an HTTP request and say "I already have page X", and the server just sends a diff
01:16:36 <ais523> this would work for most uses of AJAX, but probably not all
01:16:47 <ais523> and have the advantage that the resulting page could be linked to and navigated through correctly
01:17:47 <boily> hppavilion[1]: eh?
01:18:15 <fizzie> boily: Referring to http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/progress is my guess.
01:18:52 -!- ais523 has quit.
01:20:22 <fizzie> boily: As for the "git gc" equiv, I don't think so -- AIUI, Mercurial uses a per-file revlog, with no concept of Git-style packfiles.
01:21:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:21:30 <boily> I won't. horses taste good.
01:21:40 <imode> I think I took gitlab down.
01:23:51 <oerjan> moony: it was a symbolic link to the top canary, but with you making that binary that means `wisdom could spam binary content.
01:23:58 <imode> so, okay, gitlab is spitting 500 and 502s.
01:25:00 <fizzie> Other fun facts: the most common paste is the empty paste (57 copies), while the second most common one is the paste with a single newline (32 copies).
01:25:38 <moony> `` echo "" | paste | echo "adding another one, one paste at a time"
01:25:40 <HackEgo> close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr \ adding another one, one paste at a time
01:25:52 <shachaf> `` cd paste; du -s * | sort -rn
01:25:53 <HackEgo> 10240paste.27157 \ 10240paste.25139 \ 10240paste.2340 \ 10240paste.12841 \ 7412paste.30692 \ 4480paste.25872 \ 4480paste.16755 \ 1656paste.23201 \ 1388paste.30459 \ 668paste.14295 \ 448paste.9031 \ 448paste.28713 \ 368paste.12143 \ 336paste.29272 \ 160paste.32496 \ 160paste.13075 \ 156paste.8487 \ 156paste.6655 \ 152paste.7340 \
01:26:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste
01:26:26 <tswett> fizzie: what's the most common paste that's not entirely whitespace?
01:26:34 -!- otherbot has quit (Quit: Restart requested by jeffl35: ops).
01:26:34 -!- xkapastel has joined.
01:26:57 -!- otherbot has joined.
01:27:02 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2014-03-16 <oerjän> revert \ 2014-03-16 <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ 2013-02-13 <ais52̈3> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ 2013-02-13 <ais52̈3> revert 3 \ 2013-01-24 <shachäf> for f in wisdom/*; do [ "$f" == "ngevd" ] && continue; echo "$f:"; cat "$f"; echo ---; done | past
01:27:42 <shachaf> fizzie is in the pocket of BIG DATA
01:27:54 <fizzie> tswett: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.21657 of all things. Though there's only six of them.
01:28:12 <otherbot> /bin/bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"'
01:28:12 <otherbot> /bin/bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:28:16 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:28:38 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: moony is continuously bribed by the company that manufactures pockets for clothes
01:28:46 <fizzie> That's a pretty weird command line, given those contents.
01:29:01 <shachaf> That's just the command line of the latest command.
01:29:16 <fizzie> I've been confused by that before.
01:29:30 <shachaf> I was confused by it a minute ago.
01:29:33 <shachaf> And also many times in the past.
01:30:02 <moony> hppavilion[1]: thats not me, the person you are looking for is 'pocketkillee'
01:30:05 <tswett> fizzie: the most common paste contains 300 lines of logs of #esoteric from 2011?
01:30:19 <fizzie> tswett: It's the output of "pastelogs itidus".
01:30:28 <fizzie> I guess six times people have wanted that.
01:30:42 <HackEgo> Thanks, file log. Thile log.
01:30:57 <tswett> Can I just do `pastelogs on any arbitrary person?
01:31:12 <shachaf> No, you can't do it on shachaf or Jafet
01:31:18 <fizzie> You used to be able to do `pastelogs of any arbitrary string.
01:31:32 <fizzie> Nowadays you can't do `pastelogs of anything, or at least in a useful way.
01:31:41 <fizzie> Because HackEgo doesn't have a copy of the logs any more.
01:32:00 <shachaf> But it still has a copy of the howgs and the dowgs
01:32:11 <fungot> >2,[>,]+15[>+6>+7>+3>+2<4-]>-6.>-.-7.+13.-3.+8.>-.>+2.<5[<]>[.>]>3+2.>.<3.<2[<]>[[-<2+>+>]+<-97[-4[-4[-6[-6[-4[>-<[-]]]]]]]>[[>]>2-11.<3[<]<.>3[.>]>3.>5][-]>]<3[[<]>2[.>]>5.>2]
01:32:45 <moony> -exec echo "\`echo might want to fix"
01:32:47 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: No, just my port is.
01:32:56 <fungot> Thanks, fungot. Thungot.
01:32:56 <HackEgo> cat: thanks: No such file or directory
01:33:05 <fizzie> You may find HackEgo's version more readable, sure.
01:33:20 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
01:33:33 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Seriously, though, what did you expect from "| cat"?
01:33:40 <moony> you ruined my terminal
01:33:54 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: ...I wanted to pipe which into cat so it would show me the contents?
01:34:22 <hppavilion[1]> I thought which <file> would return the name, and pipe it to cat so it would print the contents of the file with that name
01:34:23 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: That would have been cat $(which thanks) or equiv.
01:34:35 <fizzie> If you pipe a file name into cat, you get the file name back out.
01:34:37 <HackEgo> cat: $(which thanks): No such file or directory
01:34:42 <HackEgo> cat: /hackenv/bin/thanks: No such file or directory
01:34:48 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
01:34:50 <fizzie> More generally, if you pipe anything into cat with no arguments, you get the same thing out.
01:34:58 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
01:35:08 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2014-03-16 <oerjän> revert \ 2014-03-16 <ellioẗt> revert 1 \ 2013-08-29 <Rouj̈o> echo Cats are cool, but should be illegal. > wisdom/cat
01:35:08 <moony> hppavilion[1]: see 'echo "hello world" | cat'
01:35:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cwt: not found
01:35:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wat: not found
01:36:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/wat: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/wat: cannot execute: Permission denied
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01:37:25 * moony pumpkins copumpkin
01:37:38 <fizzie> I like the diaeresis in "int-̈e".
01:37:45 <fizzie> It's like a tiny face.
01:38:00 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, apparently zzyzx is /ˈzaɪzᵻks/, not /zə.zəks/ as I pronounced it
01:39:06 <fizzie> That's what it's supposed to do, I think.
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01:40:24 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/ee.png
01:41:28 <moony> fizzie: pls use æ like a proper unicode maniac, not 'ae'
01:41:29 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, in Consolas the diaeresis combines with the e
01:42:38 <shachaf> I don't think it's a property of the font.
01:42:41 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: That's weird. The combining characters are supposed to combine with the thing they follow.
01:42:51 <HackEgo> [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
01:43:07 <HackEgo> [U+03BB GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA]
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01:43:30 * moony gives android keyboard a hug for on-demand unicode
01:43:47 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Maybe it combines with the - but is just badly misplaced. I think I've seen rather off ¨s.
01:44:48 <moony> •[———]• ~~(I'm a robot)
01:45:56 <otherbot> Input: sqrt(2); Result: 1.414213562373095048801688724209698078569671875376948073176… |
01:47:58 * boily does some circuit bending on moony
01:48:25 <boily> int-̈e combines badly for me :/
01:49:47 <moony> boily: what did you do :P
01:49:48 <boily> part :|, part :/, part three-dimensional mouth.
01:49:51 <fizzie> It's not too good on this Android I just switched to. It's somewhere halfway between the t and the -.
01:50:32 <boily> moony: absolutely nothing. *whistles innocently*
01:51:11 <oerjan> <moony> you ruined my terminal <-- you have the same crap terminal as shachaf?
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01:53:50 <shachaf> all terminals are isomorphic
01:53:56 <shachaf> it's a universal property hth
01:57:34 <oerjan> shachaf: i think the universal property is that no matter how you try to prevent nick pinging, there'll be someone in this channel that sees it completely messed up.
01:57:55 <oerjan> (or gets pinged anyway)
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02:06:25 <oerjan> `` allquotes | tail -n 1
02:06:26 <HackEgo> 1294) <hppavilion[1]> I have just learned about "SMASH FACE ON KEYBOARD; POST RESULTS". --- quit: hppavilion[1] (Quit: Leaving) --- join: hppavilion[1] [...] joined #esoteric <hppavilion[1]> ...that was the result, apparently <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, f4
02:06:46 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I once forgot what bin men were called <Taneb> Doing roughly 50% of a computer science degree, the only term I could think of was "garbage collector"
02:06:48 <HackEgo> 1295) <Taneb> I once forgot what bin men were called <Taneb> Doing roughly 50% of a computer science degree, the only term I could think of was "garbage collector"
02:07:40 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:07:49 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I once forgot what bin men were called <Taneb> Doing roughly 50% of a computer science degree, the only term I could think of was "garbage collector"
02:07:51 <HackEgo> 1295) <Taneb> I once forgot what bin men were called <Taneb> Doing roughly 50% of a computer science degree, the only term I could think of was "garbage collector"
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02:10:34 <oerjan> it's a bit weak since you actually _can_ use that term.
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02:30:41 <hppavilion[1]> English should replace upper/lower case with a bi-infinite hierarchy of cases
02:30:47 <oerjan> `learn Murphy's law obviously does not hold in wisdom/
02:30:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'murphy'': Murphy's law obviously does not hold in wisdom/
02:31:40 <hppavilion[1]> "that's in the lower upper upper lower upper upper upper case"
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02:35:33 <oerjan> `le/rn case/English has two cases, upper and lower. Upper case agrees with the verb in person and number.
02:35:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'case': English has two cases, upper and lower. Upper case agrees with the verb in person and number.
02:36:16 * oerjan suddenly feels sort of predictable
02:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, there's grammatical number, but I've never heard of grammatical ordinal...
02:42:02 <hppavilion[1]> "George washington was the presidenteb (initial)", "Barack Obama is the president (midrange)", "Whoever gets the most votes will be the Presidentif (terminal president)"
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04:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50038&oldid=49947 * Quintopia * (+0) /* ResPlicate */
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05:13:10 <HackEgo> Splay is a painful pastime that is dual to cosplay and the supersymmetric partner of ordinary play. Recuperation, when even possible, may require wearing a stume.
05:20:25 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] if you could convert efficiently from the prime factorization of a number to the prime factorization of its successor, then you could efficiently factorize any number. (you can recurse from n to floor(n/2).)
05:24:24 <HackEgo> Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people.
05:27:03 <izalove> @tell hppavilion[1] no prime divides x and x+1
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05:41:00 <hppavilion[1]> The music is an actual tune: http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/xkcd_389.mp3
05:42:10 <izalove> isn't 389 like a decade old?
05:46:47 <hppavilion[1]> (Strangely, the '0' isn't there in '02' in the official date)
05:51:06 <FaerieFly> hppavilion[1]: hmm, that arrangement of it reminds me a bit of Robo's theme though
05:51:11 <FaerieFly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmY2wf7T428 ~
05:54:01 <FaerieFly> oerjan: makes me wonder about splay trees
06:11:59 <pecan> :D ~ cosplay trees
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06:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> FaerieFly: splay is when you try to look like someone uninteresting so as not to stand out hth
06:30:06 <HackEgo> Splay is a painful pastime that is dual to cosplay and the supersymmetric partner of ordinary play. Recuperation, when even possible, may require wearing a stume.
06:33:39 <hppavilion[1]> I haven't in a while and it's starting to build up (I occasionally open it, but ever since I discovered I can use hangouts.google.com to use Hangouts I haven't needed to keep it open)
06:34:10 <Cale> http://www.webdelsol.com/marcus/acct.htm
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06:41:10 <Cale> https://www.scribd.com/doc/97124232/Marcus-Ben-The-Age-of-Wire-and-String this book has some amazing definitions :)
06:43:15 <HackEgo> flu shots are usually available from some time in the first half of November
06:43:34 <oerjan> `slwd flu shot//s/$/./;s/f/F/
06:43:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/flu shot//Flu shots are usually available from some time in the first half of November.
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07:45:02 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think I've ever seen The Fifth Element. What WAS the fifth element?
07:45:52 <imode> I have made gitlab incredibly confused.
07:47:32 <imode> my pages:deploy job keeps restarting every hour regardless of it being finished or not.
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09:01:54 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.tor.com/2010/08/05/divided-by-infinity/ is fun
09:02:15 <hppavilion[1]> And to figure out whether it's true, all I need do is wait
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09:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> What's an example of a set (that can be comprehended by a mere mortal) larger than the reals?
09:23:18 <hppavilion[1]> Does http://xkcd.com/827/ look weird to anyone else?
09:24:01 <myname> yeah, got that now, too
09:26:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You map points in the block [0..1]+[0..1]i to [0..1] with a Hilbert curve (giving you the real part) and then spiral it around (so 0 is the (0, 0) (1, 1) block, 1 is the (0, 0) (-1, 1) block, 2 is the (0, 0) (-1, -1) block, 3 is the (0, 0) (1, -1) block, 4 is the (1, 0) (2, -1) block, etc.) to get the integral part
09:27:54 <myname> hppavilion[1]: you do know P(M)?
09:28:01 <myname> the set of all subsets
09:29:00 <myname> the power set of the naturals is uncountable and should be isomorphic to R
09:29:38 <hppavilion[1]> That feels like one of the things that should be countable for no apparent reason...
09:29:52 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, you'd need infinitely many dimensions for it to work
09:30:28 <myname> P(M) is always 2^|M| big
09:30:36 <shachaf> It is easy to diagonalize P(N)
09:31:19 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Wait, is diagonalization where we disprove or we do prove?
09:33:44 <hppavilion[1]> ...Oh, and I of course see how 2^R is isomorphic to the set of predicates over the reals- any predicate p over S (of type S -> TF) can give two outputs to a p(s); if any combination of outputs is possible, that means a predicate can just be represented as the set of its TRUE values (or of its FALSE values)
09:34:20 <hppavilion[1]> Which can be any subset of R, and it's FALSE (or- if you use the set of FALSEities- TRUE) on the complement
09:35:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Would {-1, 0, 1}^R (or any other set, for that matter) happen to be isomorphic to 2^R?
09:36:47 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, a good way to write power set of S might be S!; while it isn't strictly the same (as power set must include {}), the analogy holds for a bit, it's intuitively similar, and I don't think factorial of a set has any better definition
09:39:18 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, if you have lists as well then S! could actually be the permutations of S, I guess
09:42:03 <myname> permutations of a set are the set
09:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: If you can have ordered sequences, S! = {permutations of S in list form} is a nice definition, or at least a handy shorthand from a programming standpoint
09:48:50 <myname> it's still not even close to being the same as the power set
09:49:14 <myname> well yeah, you oractically never need it, though
09:50:07 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Using S! for permutations is a completely different definition of S! for power sets
10:12:31 <oerjan> pretty sure the set of permutations of an infinite set has the same size as its power set, assuming AoC.
10:13:00 <oerjan> (where a permutation is a self-bijection)
10:22:09 <int-e> I wonder what a GG movie would be like.
10:22:28 <oerjan> i got stuck reading the archives again
10:22:39 <int-e> So you're missing out on the current action?
10:22:55 <oerjan> no, that's were it started
10:23:20 <oerjan> i somehow got suspicious whether they'd been consistent about which arm Dimo lost
10:23:32 <int-e> Oh are you looking for a connection between the Geisterdamen and Skifander?
10:23:34 <oerjan> so i went back to the Sturmhalten arc
10:23:45 <int-e> Oh, even more mundane than that...
10:24:10 <oerjan> int-e: well that's a given too, but the only thing i can think of is that portal/door zeetha mentioned once
10:24:36 <int-e> But I would *expect* them to be consistent about that actually. I didn't ask the question though.
10:24:50 <oerjan> of course they may simply have been told about it by Lucretia, who probably accompanied the heterodyne brothers there
10:25:20 <int-e> (Unless there's people-mirroring teleportation involved in the story :-P)
10:26:13 <int-e> (It's really an underappreciated problem of teleportation, imho... how do you know that you've put things together in the right orientation?)
10:26:47 <oerjan> CT symmetry breaking hth
10:29:08 <int-e> . o O ( What if the symmetry isn't broken but determined by the prevalence of matter vs. anti-matter? )
10:29:40 <int-e> But I meant as a plot device in stories.
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10:38:17 <oerjan> hm two far apart civilizations that communicate via teleportation devices. but the first time they meet by normal traveling means, gamma ray explosion ensues...
10:43:35 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a commonly-cited English minimal pair for [ɪ] vs. [ɛ]?
10:44:17 <FaerieFly> I read GG until I caught up with present time, then sort of stopped following it
10:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> And that even *I* couldn't reliably produce the distinction in any other language
10:44:53 <FaerieFly> that would've been somewhere around when they were having issues with trains
10:45:22 <hppavilion[1]> In my current conlang, all vowels have three forms in writing- upper case, lower case, and super case (diacritical)
10:45:33 <FaerieFly> But honestly I should probably reread the whole thing since I've forgotten parts of the story and most of the characters by now
10:45:55 <LKoen> what's your first language?
10:46:21 <LKoen> in French, I wouldn't even think about confusing [ɪ] and [ɛ]
10:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: I wouldn't either because they *ARE* distinct in english
10:47:27 <LKoen> I mean no frenchman would say [ɪ] and [ɛ] are *very* similar sounds
10:47:55 <FaerieFly> Yeah, I'd also call them completely different
10:48:00 <LKoen> we even got the accentuated letter é to denote [ɛ]
10:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> But they're so similar that if you don't just handle it automatically subconsciously (e.g. when learning a language), you could trip up constantly
10:48:20 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: You can make them both without moving your mouth in the slightest
10:48:32 <LKoen> my tongue moves, though
10:48:55 <LKoen> I hear the Greeks pronounce all their vowels [ɪ] nowadays
10:49:22 <FaerieFly> LKoen: that's funny since Swedish uses é exclusively to denote [eː] in cases where it'd otherwise be [ɛ]
10:49:33 <hppavilion[1]> And since it's obviously not voicing, that means that the difference between the two is just frequency produced by your vocal cords
10:49:42 * LKoen actually doesn't know the phonetic alphabet
10:50:56 <hppavilion[1]> (In my language, dipthong between two sound s and t is represented by the symbol for s (upper or lower case, as is appropriate for the context) with the diacritical form of t combining with it))
10:51:13 <shachaf> I know the NATO phonetic alphabet. Does that count?
10:51:28 <FaerieFly> oh, I don't know french, but looking up examples for the two, [e] is the one in "beauté" and [ɛ] the one in "bête" apparently
10:51:41 <FaerieFly> so I guess your é and our é might coincide
10:52:03 <LKoen> sorry, I was confused by "better"
10:52:16 <shachaf> FaerieFly: what's spooky about faeries twh
10:52:23 <LKoen> yeah, so é is [e] and è is [ɛ]
10:52:50 <FaerieFly> shachaf: well there are some mischievous sprites
10:53:06 <hppavilion[1]> Looks like wiki's french IPA table isn't very good
10:53:29 <LKoen> when I had ancient greek in middle school they used to tell us that êta was è and epsilon was é
10:53:33 <FaerieFly> I was reading the Wikipedia article on where Halloween came from and saw " Like Beltane/Calan Mai, it was seen as a liminal time, when the boundary between this world and the Otherworld thinned. This meant the Aos Sí (pronounced ees shee), the 'spirits' or 'fairies', could more easily come into our world and were particularly active."
10:53:41 <FaerieFly> and thought that, hey, faerie is a cute word
10:54:16 <LKoen> is there a difference between "fairy" and "faerie" in english?
10:54:28 <FaerieFly> I think faerie is just an archaic spelling
10:54:30 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: And [ɪ] is... well, if you recognize german "bitte" it's the 'i'
10:54:41 <LKoen> yup we got the letter i for that sound hppavilion[1]
10:54:55 <fizzie> LKoen: I've been assuming it's the same difference as between dwarfs and dwarves, and elfs and elves.
10:54:55 <LKoen> in fact it's pretty much the only letter in french which has only one possible pronunciation
10:54:57 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: We have the letter I for that sound and a million others :P
10:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: faerie is the old fashioned way to spell it- probably should be færies- that nobody uses
10:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> But that is so archaic that when I first saw it I thought I was supposed to pronounce it differently
10:55:32 <FaerieFly> hppavilion[1]: I think most indoeuropean languages that use the latin alphabet use 'i' for that, except english which seems to mainly use 'e' for it
10:55:32 <LKoen> and a ferry is a boat
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10:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: I feel like we should just universally declare that any noun ending in 'f' can be properly pluralized with 'ves'
10:55:57 <LKoen> or i followed by a double consonant
10:56:25 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: I forget, does french have a dual in number?
10:56:25 <LKoen> she eats shoots and leaves
10:56:38 <LKoen> what the heck is a dual in number?
10:57:03 <LKoen> we got ordinals and cardinals?
10:57:16 <LKoen> we got singular and plural
10:57:20 <LKoen> plural means more than one
10:57:21 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: Basically, does French have a different inflection to say '2 x' the same way as you distinguish '1 x' and 'several x'
10:57:24 <fizzie> "It may be observed that in this book -- the form dwarves is used, although the dictionaries tell us that the plural of dwarf is dwarfs. It should be dwarrows (or dwerrows), if singular and plural had each gone its own way down the years, as have man and men or goose and geese. But we no longer speak of a dwarf as often as we do of a man, or even of a goose, and memories have not been fresh ...
10:57:30 <fizzie> ... enough among Men to keep hold of a special plural for a race now abandoned to folk-tales, where at least a shadow of truth is preserved, or at last to nonsense-stories in which they have become mere figures of fun. But in the Third Age something of their old character and power is still glimpsed, if already a little dimmed: these are the descendants of the Naugrim of the Elder Days, in ...
10:57:36 <fizzie> ... whose hearts still burns the ancient fire of Aulë the Smith, and the embers smoulder of their long grudge against the Elves; and in whose hands still lives the skill in works of stone that none have surpassed."
10:58:14 <LKoen> hppavilion[1]: for instance in english you'd say "I'm the fastest man alive" but "I'm the faster of us two" whereas in french the two would use the same word
10:58:23 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: I've heard that Tolkein didn't know about Dwerrows when he wrote LotR and later found out and was sad
10:58:26 <LKoen> because we don't make any difference between two and many
10:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: But, as I was told, french does treat 0 as singular
10:59:12 <hppavilion[1]> (so you say- englishified- "I have no cow" rather than "I have no cows")
10:59:24 <FaerieFly> Swedish doesn't have a dual number either, but IIRC some words sort of remain with traces of a dual number, but I'm blanking on any right now (apart from 'both' if that counts, but that's a bit silly)
10:59:49 <FaerieFly> I feel like I should know my own language, but..
11:00:09 <LKoen> I think the only way you can be *forced* to use singular is with the word "aucun", which is literally the same as german "kein" and means "not one"
11:00:12 <hppavilion[1]> My conlang has singular, dual, many, plural (dual | many), and none.
11:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> So there's a way of inflecting that's equivalent to saying "cow(s)" in english
11:00:52 <FaerieFly> the comment was about the use of the word "bägge".. if you refer to two things, you say "bägge två", whereas for three or more it would be "alla tre", "alla fyra", etc
11:00:56 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be taking a lot of Latin and Spanish into it as well, where -o applied to a verb means that you do it
11:01:23 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], in "This field has been designate for cows", would cows take the null number?
11:01:24 <LKoen> does "bägge" mean all?
11:01:25 <FaerieFly> but not "all two"; rather you would say "both two" so to speak
11:01:36 <LKoen> it looks like it should mean bag
11:02:07 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: So it'd probably be the non-null, which I forgot to add or mention
11:03:06 * LKoen didn't understand whether "null" meant "zero" or "not specifying how many"
11:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: ...yeah, good point. I did some word collision there
11:04:06 <LKoen> and how many genders do you have? she/he/e/it?
11:04:37 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: The pronouns are generally genderless because gendered pronouns aren't really needed
11:04:44 <FaerieFly> LKoen: about vowels having multiple sounds, that's the case in swedish too--each vowel has a "long sound" and "short sound", but they in many cases differ in both length and quality (i.e., pronounced differently)
11:05:26 <FaerieFly> so the "è" would be "short e" for me and "é" would be "long e"
11:05:57 <FaerieFly> the former practically never appears lengthened (only in loans) and vice versa for the latter
11:06:35 * LKoen thinks french is one of the language which worries the less about accents or length
11:07:26 <LKoen> I mean, intuitively, I do put accents on some syllables on some words, but if someone else do it differently I might not be shocked
11:07:40 <LKoen> and we don't teach accents at school, neither to french kids nor to foreigners learning french
11:08:07 <FaerieFly> I should ask my parents whether they did
11:08:11 <LKoen> (by accents I don't mean the ' on é but the emphasis on some syllables)
11:08:33 <LKoen> (like the difference between "analyse" and "analysis"
11:08:47 <FaerieFly> I was confused for a moment since I was thinking "aren't the ´ ` accents kinda important" :p
11:09:47 <LKoen> sometimes I read "accent tonique" in french texts about foreign languages
11:11:31 <FaerieFly> We call it "betoning", which would be something like "en-tone-ing" if one translated it verbatim
11:15:08 <hppavilion[1]> If I say "josi-də-ei'ym kek" or "kekoʔseiym" means "I serve you[plural] food" because inflection
11:16:29 <hppavilion[1]> LKoen: Combining symbols on letters are "diacritics", specific way of stressing words is "emphasis", "accent" is a way people from a region talk
11:16:52 <LKoen> in french the first one is called "accent"
11:16:56 <LKoen> the second one is called "accent"
11:17:00 <LKoen> and the third one is called "accent"
11:17:16 <LKoen> as you can see we think and talk about language a lot
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11:33:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Web framework list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50039&oldid=41839 * YSomebody * (+22)
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11:34:56 <HackEgo> nethack//<Jessicatz> you play too much nethack when: you look down both sides of the corridor, start to sweat and then realize you're looking at your email address
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11:42:21 <LKoen> I use gmail and they managed to make the interface even worse than it already was. no confusing it with a corridor now
11:47:12 <boily> HELLoen. they changed gmail?
11:49:45 <FaerieFly> We use "accent" for the ` ´ diacritics, "betoning" for stress/emphasis, "dialekt" for the regional thing
11:50:15 <FaerieFly> You ~could~ use "accent" for the regional thing but it's rarely used and would be pronounced differently from the "accent" for the diacritics
11:51:35 <LKoen> we got "dialecte" too but it means an actual variation on the language
11:51:38 <FaerieFly> the diacritics "accent" is /ˈakːsaŋː/ borrowing from French whereas I've only ever heard /ˈakːsɛnːt/ for the "regional variation" sense
11:51:41 <LKoen> not just pronunciation
11:51:56 <FaerieFly> Right, we use "dialekt" for regional variations in pronounciation
11:52:05 <FaerieFly> which is a bit different from the english sense of "dialect" too
11:53:43 <FaerieFly> (in case you're wondering, /ˈakːsaŋː/ is our "try to mimic the French" pronounciation)
11:53:52 <FaerieFly> I have no idea whether it's a good or bad approximation, but hey :p
11:54:03 <FaerieFly> same goes for other words we've borrowed from french
11:54:22 <boily> FællorieFly! /aksã/ hth
11:54:28 <FaerieFly> the ŋ is probably not nasal enough
11:54:51 <FaerieFly> or is my imagined pronounciation completely off?
11:55:32 <boily> it is. LKoen might pronounce it closer to /ɑ̃/.
11:56:25 <LKoen> I don't think accent is nasal
11:56:37 <LKoen> the t is completely mute
11:56:56 <LKoen> and the n is only there as a diphtongue with the a, we don't pronounce it as a consonant
11:57:19 <LKoen> err, with the a I mean
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12:34:53 <LKoen> so there's this tv show that my fiancé wants to watch on tvc
12:35:01 <LKoen> but we missed the first four episodes
12:35:14 <LKoen> they are on replay on the channel's website, but it's supposed to be streaming
12:35:39 <LKoen> I'd like to download them so I can watch them on tv rather than on my computer
12:43:29 <LKoen> nevermind, the replay has only got the french dubbed version :(
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13:45:08 <fizzie> LKoen: FWIW, "youtube-dl", despite the name, can download from a whole bunch -- https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/supportedsites.html -- of "streaming" websites. Depending on how obscure yours is.
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13:46:18 <fizzie> (E.g. some of the Finnish commercial TV channels are on that list, but the Finnish national public broadcasting company's web thing isn't, you have to use a separate tool for that.)
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13:52:05 <LKoen> fizzie: oh, I didn't know that, thank you
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15:13:12 <b_jonas> Modern compilers are really complicated. I'm appreciating them more and more all the time I learn about them. They have to do a lot of magical things.
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17:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, have you seen the gcc wiki article on reload.c
17:15:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50040&oldid=50038 * Quintopia * (+56) smbf
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17:25:50 <\oren\> Newt Gingrich accuses Megyn Kelly of being fascinated with sex.
17:26:22 <\oren\> a swear to god this is the decadent decline of the american empire
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18:54:30 <\oren\> "The clouds at the outer edge of the hurricane swirling beneath the hexagon’s surface are estimated to be traveling at about 330 miles per second" idiots
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19:02:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50041&oldid=49995 * Albedo * (+1523) /* Write file to disk */ add Proof of Turing completeness
19:03:32 <izalove> magnitude 5.5 earthquake near rome...
19:04:10 <moonythedwarf> izalove: a better one would be a magnitude 15 (richter scale) earthquake :)
19:06:06 <\oren\> why does so much stuff seem to rely on undefined behaviour
19:07:09 <olsner> because almost everything is undefined behavior
19:07:59 <izalove> 300 people died a couple of months ago for a 6.2 mag earthquake in italy
19:08:01 <\oren\> in this case, we are apparently relying on the behaviour of defining functions multiple times
19:08:50 <moonythedwarf> izalove: oh. i didnt know. sorry. i was jokingly pointing out (very badly) that a magnitude 15 earthquake emits roughly Earth's gravitational binding energy
19:08:52 <\oren\> and it is apparently working 99 times out of 100
19:10:06 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function: Buffer], | EventEmitter: [Function: EventEmitter], | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] } }
19:10:30 <int-e> Hmm, magnitude 15... *extrapolates* 10 exatons TNT equivalent ... a truly mindshattering ("boggling" is just too weak) amount.
19:11:18 <moonythedwarf> int-e: i've been assuming it would blow the earth apart if a magnitude 16 were to somehow show up, plausible?
19:12:06 <moonythedwarf> izalove: a magnitude -15 would be best tho. (same as a mote of dust landing on your table, they happen all the time :p)
19:12:28 <otherbot> # killall -SIGSEGV init & killall -SIGILL init
19:12:34 <\oren\> the chicxulub crater was magnitude 13
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19:18:05 <quintopia> my server was down for hours last night. no idea when it came back up
19:18:47 <int-e> moonythedwarf: No I don't think so... still not nearly enough energy (10^25J) to accelerate 6*10^24kg to escape velocity (if you move 1% of that, you can lift it 33m high? don't quote me on that...) It *will* destroy all life on Earth and probably blow a noticable chunk away.
19:20:07 <int-e> moonythedwarf: but I'm not certain that I got all orders of magnitude right there... do your own calculation or ask Randall Munroe ;-)
19:22:30 <int-e> other fun tidbit, remotely related: Li-ion batteries have about 10% the energy density of TNT.
19:22:34 <quintopia> @tell boily so far, Silberjoder programs are 55% shorter than equivalent Aubergine programs and 30% shorter than equivalent SMBF programs
19:22:52 <int-e> (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density_Extended_Reference_Table )
19:23:09 <quintopia> moonythedwarf: HackEgo is programmed to delete that file whenever things get too hostile in this channel
19:25:07 <int-e> I think we already had the string "cat: canary: No such file or directory" as the contents of the canary file, so don't bother.
19:26:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:26:40 <moonythedwarf> `` echo "cat: canary: No such file or directory" > canary
19:27:02 <int-e> moonythedwarf: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/421c51b7ca27
19:27:48 <shachaf> You've been asked several times by several people to stop doing that.
19:28:58 <int-e> and by "we already had the string" I apparently meant that shachaf put it there
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20:06:23 <izalove> Well, it appears AWS is down.
20:06:25 <izalove> How about 60% off everything on our site while AWS is down?
20:06:29 <izalove> NOTE: Once AWS is back up 100% we will disable this coupon.
20:06:31 <izalove> Thanks for your continued business.
20:07:19 <\oren\> if aws was down, wouldn't my ebsite be down too?
20:07:47 <izalove> your ebsite is a special snowflake
20:08:44 <izalove> anyway it was a few days old and i just found it
20:09:58 <izalove> and cloudatcost is usually on 70-90% sale
20:10:15 <izalove> like, this is literally the first time i see them not on sale
20:10:44 <shachaf> Is that a statement that they're confident that AWS won't have much downtime?
20:11:13 <shachaf> If they can put it on sale, was it really at cost?
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20:15:10 <int-e> shachaf: tbf, CaC is permanently having some sort of sale...
20:16:07 <int-e> And it could be "at cost"... they just take 30% of the money and invest it in hardware maintenance :P
20:17:22 <int-e> Oh and electricity.
20:18:45 <int-e> And I believe I've suggested this before, but going into bankruptcy seems to be an essential last resort of any business plan that offers "lifetime" VPSs.
20:20:38 <int-e> So all they need is a way to siphon out the money... maybe they're paying for traffic to their telecom parent business.
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20:33:21 <fizzie> int-e: They should probably get some sort of an esolang award for all their good work, though.
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20:47:35 <izalove> http://www.emsc-csem.org/Earthquake/Map/zoom.php?key=85&typ=euro#2 another one... 6.1 mag
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21:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, there's such thing as a hexagonal parallelogon
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22:18:53 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoKjTdoEe7U
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22:41:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50042&oldid=50041 * Albedo * (+15) /* [ and ] instructions */
22:41:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50043&oldid=50042 * Albedo * (+8) /* . and , instructions */
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22:54:58 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
22:55:21 <HackEgo> We're not sure what hambiguitous means, but it's definitely not hth.
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23:03:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50044&oldid=50043 * Albedo * (+51) /* Proof of Turing completeness */
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23:05:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50045&oldid=50044 * Albedo * (+3) /* For 8 bit cell size */
23:05:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50046&oldid=50045 * Albedo * (+23) /* For 64 bit cell size */
23:07:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50047&oldid=50046 * Albedo * (+124) /* instructions */
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23:10:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ABoschman * New user account
23:24:25 <\oren\> `le/rn ambiguous/Ambiguous, from greek 'ἀν-' lack of, and 'βιγος' clarity of meaning, means when something is unclear in its meaning. Antonym: biguous.
23:24:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'ambiguous': Ambiguous, from greek 'ἀν-' lack of, and 'βιγος' clarity of meaning, means when something is unclear in its meaning. Antonym: biguous.
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23:26:38 <HackEgo> Ambiguous, from greek 'ἀν-' lack of, and 'βιγος' clarity of meaning, means when something is unclear in its meaning. Antonym: biguous.
23:27:13 <lambdabot> quintopia said 4h 4m 38s ago: so far, Silberjoder programs are 55% shorter than equivalent Aubergine programs and 30% shorter than equivalent SMBF programs
23:27:49 <boily> \oren\: do you know how to fix the LaTeX Greek Problem?
23:28:01 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:30:05 <\oren\> boily: what greek latex problem?
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23:32:01 <boily> something broke some time ago, and I can't pdfy wisdoms with Greek in them.
23:32:35 <boily> let me pull the error message...
23:33:05 <boily> ! Package fontenc Error: Encoding file `lgrxenc.def' not found.
23:33:05 <pikhq> ﾄﾞｳｼﾃ ﾐﾝｱｶﾞ ﾍﾝｶｸｶﾅｦ ﾂｶｯﾃﾙﾉ?
23:34:31 <boily> ピックヘロキュー \oren\さんだけが使いますよ
23:36:40 <\oren\> ﾀﾞｯﾃ ﾊﾝｶｸｶﾅﾊ ｾﾞﾝｶｸｯｶﾅﾖﾘ ﾎｳｶﾞｶﾜｲｲ
23:36:43 <pikhq> Oh, you said tsukaimasu, not omoimasu. Never mind.
23:36:51 <pikhq> I apparently can't read today.
23:39:13 <boily> \oren\: that's a perfectly cromulent point.
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23:40:25 <boily> pikhq: I can't omoimasu today, neurons were drowned in coffee and survivors throttled with a few choice lines of Java. and some XML too, to make sure nobody was left.
23:40:31 <fungot> boily: written in scheme is bad form. can ming generate it? why? so long as that doesn't betray what you're trying to look smarter than i am
23:40:49 <pikhq> boily: My sympathies.
23:41:46 <shachaf> pikhq: more like pooch pic hq
23:45:59 <boily> nipponing is easy. it's just a fungotload of easy steps.
23:45:59 <fungot> boily: a good start, actually. which is somewhat divorced from any kind of esolang symbol or logo or something? i have
23:46:07 <pikhq> Weru, za nippongo ranguaji izu not zatto hādo. Yū shimpuri niido tsu wāku on itto foa severu yiazu. Ando zen, yū tsu wiru spiiku japaniizu.
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23:46:24 <boily> `relcome xkapastel
23:46:25 <HackEgo> xkapastel: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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23:47:14 <\oren\> ﾀﾞﾝﾀﾞﾝ ﾆﾎﾝｺﾞﾊ ｺﾉ ﾁｬﾈﾙｦ ｼﾘｬｸｼﾏｽ
23:49:40 <boily> quintopia: hiragana, katakana, basic sentence structure, [REDACTED], basic kanji, slightly more complex sentences, slightly more complex kanji, slightly more complex sentences...
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23:55:21 <boily> +=chicken, I said.
23:55:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It should tell you when the command isn't recognized
23:55:30 <boily> hppavilion[1]: duh :P
23:55:48 <shachaf> this bot is unnecessary tdnh
23:55:56 <shachaf> i predict that it'll cause nothing but spam
23:55:57 <boily> +=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:56:08 <fizzie> shachaf: That was a very quick turnaround time for a prediction.
23:56:31 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm moving it off the channel in a moment, I just needed to check if a certain command that requires joining a channel other than #esoteric-blah worked
23:56:40 <boily> +=testtestasdfasdfadsf
23:56:58 <shachaf> You could have tried any other channel. For example #esoteric-blah-blah
23:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> It confirms that users are logged in so that the admin commands (e.g. join a channel or turn off) can't be executed by people who just use an admin's nick
23:57:24 <fizzie> oerjan: +===\__/ is a frying pan hth
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23:57:50 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-blah-blah-blah-blahblah-blahblah-blah.
23:57:57 <\oren\> I can't see any replies from advbot
23:57:59 <quintopia> boily: what is the thing with the backwards E and y that sounds like "yoy" at 2:25 https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=IvN8jW_UXlU
23:58:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.
23:58:24 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:59:10 <pikhq> It is as soon as you join it.
23:59:20 <\oren\> quintopia: it just says ヨイ
00:00:05 <hppavilion[1]> I see the issue; somebody tried to use it and a logic error made it run forever waiting to find an account
00:00:07 <\oren\> which just says "yoi" and could mean "good"
00:00:17 <pikhq> That's katakana yo + katakana i. Can't be more specific than that without context.
00:00:17 <\oren\> but could also jsut be a random sound
00:01:19 <oerjan> . o O ( yo, i use katakana )
00:01:44 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:02:20 <hppavilion[1]> boily: The goal of advbot is that it will maintain the inventory, HP, etc. of #esoteric users :P
00:02:37 <\oren\> wait did I screw up my ga and wo again.
00:02:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50048&oldid=50047 * Albedo * (+8) /* For 8 bit cell size */
00:02:51 <boily> quintopia: it is a random yoi hth
00:06:22 <\oren\> the best way I found to learn the kana is to learn words that use those kana
00:07:52 <pikhq> イツ ベッタ ザン ユージング カナ フォア エングリシュ。
00:08:17 <quintopia> boily so it literally means nothing?
00:08:40 <\oren\> quintopia: nothing more than "yoyoyo" means in english
00:09:04 <boily> quintopia: it's like a "come come come come!"
00:18:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50049&oldid=50048 * Albedo * (+921) /* For 8 bit cell size */ corrections and extensions
00:18:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50050&oldid=50049 * Albedo * (+0) /* For 8 bit cell size */
00:21:34 <tswett> Today's self-inflicted programming task: implementing the integers.
00:22:11 <tswett> There's some stuff I know that I can do.
00:23:24 <tswett> I know that I can define a datatype representing the integers. I also know that I can prove that the integers are a ring... probably.
00:24:04 <tswett> What I want to do is prove that the integers are the *initial* ring.
00:25:33 <tswett> A programming language I'm slowly inventing.
00:27:20 <tswett> With this language, I'm doing a couple of nasty things to myself.
00:29:16 <tswett> I'm not really letting you define functions.
00:30:05 <tswett> You can define primitive-recursive functions. Functions aren't first class, though.
00:30:15 <tswett> You can't take a function as an argument.
00:32:20 <hppavilion[1]> I have changed the long annoying title that comes after my name
00:32:31 <hppavilion[1]> I have replaced "Lord of the Walri" with "Grand Moff of the Walri"
00:33:38 * oerjan modifies the invisible ink in his records
00:33:46 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: hey, are you aware of that thing that a bot can do where it asks freenode to tell it whether or not each message was sent by an identified user?
00:34:18 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The way I have it currently implemented is sufficient...
00:34:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: race condition?
00:35:03 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, if the user is registered, then they leave and somebody steals their name?
00:35:06 <HackEgo> Your venerated itymologist gnite gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:35:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: yeah. probably not immensely likely :P
00:35:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50051&oldid=50050 * Albedo * (+600) /* [ and ] instructions */ extensions and clarifications
00:35:36 <boily> I should template the wisdoerjan and autogenerate it...
00:35:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50052&oldid=50051 * Albedo * (-68) /* [ and ] instructions */
00:35:53 <hppavilion[1]> Not likely at all, and it could only happen if someone were to execute a command then... yeah, don't think there's any possible way
00:36:21 <hppavilion[1]> But there are other, riskier race conditions in other places, depending on whether the event-driven API I'm using is async
00:36:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50053&oldid=50052 * Albedo * (+7) /* [ and ] instructions */
00:37:03 -!- oerjan has changed nick to testation.
00:37:17 -!- testation has changed nick to oerjan.
00:37:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: note that it is possible to be logged in to your own account while using a nick that's not the account name, and which may or may not belong to the account hth
00:38:31 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:38:40 -!- DHeadshot_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:38:41 <oerjan> (in case you haven't considered that. it might actually require messaging nickserv to resolve that, i think.)
00:38:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:38:59 -!- tswett_ has joined.
00:39:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I wanted to see if I can detect channel ops with whois
00:39:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: probably not, it would require listing all the channels...
00:40:06 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:40:19 <oerjan> i assume there's a mode command for it.
00:40:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm giving the bot permissions so some commands can't be executed by certain users; I'm making the exit-the-current-channel command available not just to admins of the bot, but to people who are op in the channel they send it in (but only for the current channel)
00:41:25 <hppavilion[1]> So a channel op could remove the bot without outright banning it, e.g. if it has triggered a botlop
00:41:41 -!- imode has joined.
00:41:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50054&oldid=50053 * Albedo * (+39) /* For 8 bit cell size */
00:42:20 -!- tswett_ has quit (Client Quit).
00:43:22 <tswett> Lemme think, what does it mean to show that something is the initial ring?
00:43:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: sounds unlikely to be easier than asking chanserv to quiet it
00:43:38 <oerjan> (which i can do in one command, without op'ing myself)
00:44:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50055&oldid=50054 * Albedo * (+0) /* For 8 bit cell size */
00:44:44 <oerjan> tswett: you define the obvious ring homomorphism from it to another ring, and prove that it's the unique one hth
00:44:59 <hppavilion[1]> The main goal of advbot is to handle inventory and item properties
00:45:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50056&oldid=50055 * Albedo * (+0) /* For 64 bit cell size */
00:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide what items to add and who to give them to
00:45:40 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I like this idea.
00:46:51 -!- oerjan has changed nick to testation.
00:47:04 <testation> hppavilion[1]: could you try to /whois me?
00:47:24 <testation> i suddenly realized i might not be seeing the same thing as everyone else in that case
00:47:55 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: why not what? I said that I *do* like this idea.
00:48:34 <testation> hppavilion[1]: did you see me logged in to oerjan?
00:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> Or, wait, you're the first, there's never another I have to correct for
00:48:45 -!- testation has changed nick to oerjan.
00:49:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ok that proves that just /whois isn't enough to tell whether a nick belongs to someone.
00:49:28 <oerjan> you get the right account name, of course.
00:50:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So, for example, as long as hppavilion[2] is logged in as hppavilion[1], e can still administrate the bot
00:50:10 <tswett> I'm getting an irresistible urge to write an IRC bot for playing Dvorak.
00:50:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Your realname (or... whatever that weird string with ~ and @ is. Never really been sure) is also still '(~)oerjan[...]', of course, and you're still named Ørjan Johansen
00:51:36 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
00:51:39 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Client Quit).
00:51:58 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh my god I just realized that 'realname' literally is just supposed to mean "your real name"
00:52:21 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
00:52:33 <shachaf> `` rgrep -li mapole wisdom
00:52:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/userweps \ wisdom/brontosaurus \ wisdom/swatter \ wisdom/mapole \ wisdom/corkscrew \ wisdom/thwackamacallit \ wisdom/amphiboily
00:52:55 <hppavilion[1]> boily: What version of mapole do you traditionally use? Is it the military version?
00:53:07 <HackEgo> boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moon has the snail cannon, hppavilion[1] is a motherfucking walrus
00:53:18 <HackEgo> 2016-05-03 <oerjän> ` mv {jnk,wisdom}/userweps
00:53:39 <shachaf> a little uncouth, don't you think
00:54:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/userweps//boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moony has the snail cannon, hppavilion[1] is a motherfucking walrus
00:54:33 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
00:54:38 <boily> hppavilion[1]: I use the standard mapole hth
00:54:40 <HackEgo> A corkscrew is a downwards spiral of doom. See mapole.
00:54:54 <HackEgo> Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole.
00:55:06 <HackEgo> The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles.
00:56:34 <hppavilion[1]> `slwd userweps//s/$/, and Taneb invents new weapons from his surroundings on a moment's notice./
00:56:36 <HackEgo> wisdom/userweps//boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter, moony has the snail cannon, hppavilion[1] is a motherfucking walrus, and Taneb invents new weapons from his surroundings on a moment's notice.
00:56:37 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host).
00:56:37 -!- tswett has joined.
00:57:02 <shachaf> `learn The saucepan is a tool used by oerjan to cook delicious risgrøt as a reward for good behavior.
00:57:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'saucepan': The saucepan is a tool used by oerjan to cook delicious risgrøt as a reward for good behavior.
00:57:33 <boily> ah, du pudding au riz!
00:57:48 <hppavilion[1]> boily: What are the properties of the simulated mapole?
00:57:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the part after ~ is my irc nick. the part after ! is my linux account name, unless i ask irssi to give something else. the part after @ is the host i'm connecting from, unless i get a cloak.
00:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Your account name... is hagbard! <duh duhn DUHN!>
00:58:28 * boily virtually thwacks hppavilion[1]
00:58:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/userweps//boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter
00:58:58 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: userweps was initialized with a snail cannon
00:59:22 <HackEgo> A brontosaurus is an ancient mythological creature. They were well known for having mapoles for teeth.
00:59:41 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: in your thing or my thing?
00:59:43 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e hppavilion[1̈]
01:00:02 <hppavilion[1]> ...I don't remember doing anything with wisdom/brontosaurus
01:00:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i may have mixed up the ! and ~ also the ~ may mean i'm identified via the ident protocol
01:00:25 <oerjan> also i'm pretty sure hagbar_t_ comes after the @
01:00:33 <shachaf> `` dowg brontosaurus | tac
01:00:35 <HackEgo> 2015-12-11 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn Brontosaurus/A brontosaurus is an ancient mythological creature. They were well known for having mapoles for teeth. \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1
01:00:54 <tswett> For my thing: I'm going to allow cards to be written in Lua, and in Lua you can just assume that any object has any property.
01:01:02 <shachaf> oerjan: when are you going to invent drowg twh
01:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> ...OK, I'm really surprised I was the one who added mapoles for teeth
01:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Should health be something weird and abnormal?
01:02:11 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I dunno. What ideas have you got?
01:02:22 <oerjan> <shachaf> a little uncouth, don't you think <-- hey, it may be considered culturally acceptable for walri
01:03:03 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Not sure. I could make it complex, or allow health to be negative, or all sorts of weird things
01:04:16 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: here's a simple proposal: health is an integer, followed by any number of letters.
01:04:36 <tswett> Someone can have a health of 6, or -1000, or 8H, or whatever.
01:05:18 <tswett> For whatever reason, I was thinking uppercase only.
01:06:05 <tswett> What does health do? I dunno.
01:07:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intraplanetary hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-spamoidal.
01:07:24 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So... you have no idea what the letters are for?
01:07:37 <tswett> Soooo. There's this IRC client library for .NET, called IRC.NET. So far, I haven't been able to figure out how to make it connect.
01:08:14 <oerjan> shachaf: what's drowg?
01:08:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: One COULD use string-based health, where "damage" means applying an s-substitution and death means the empty string
01:08:55 <tswett> That's an interesting idea.
01:08:58 <oerjan> shachaf: oh. it's `dowt. and i'm pretty sure you were around when i did it.
01:09:00 <hppavilion[1]> s/s-substitution/string operation such as the s-substitution/
01:09:37 <oerjan> . o O ( ok now even shachaf can't keep up with all the `hoag variants... )
01:10:14 <hppavilion[1]> If you want classic, integral health, you can just use health of n being "1" repeated n times and taking k damage being health[k:]
01:15:18 <\oren\> hmm, wat if the letters after the number indicate status conditions like PSN, PAR, BRN, etc lke in pokemon!
01:16:47 <\oren\> crap why am I still at work it's 8 PM
01:18:25 <hppavilion[1]> OK, yeah, health is a string that is initially determined by repeating the user's name to the specified length, and is changed by various string operations including substitution (caesar, atbash, viginere by user's name, etc.)
01:21:33 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So some example initial healths are boilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboily, tswetttswetttswetttswetttswetttswetttswetttswetttswett, hppavilion[1]hppavilion[1]hppavilion[1]hppavilion[1], and \oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\
01:24:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:24:59 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: OK< it's boilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboilyboily, \oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\oren\\o, and hppavilion[1]hppavilion[1]hppavilion[1]hppavilion[
01:25:40 <tswett> Repeat the name indefinitely and truncate it to 50 characters?
01:25:58 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Though 50 is an arbitrary example; it only matters that it's a constant
01:26:19 <oerjan> `le/rn hoag/`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists in reverse.
01:26:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'hoag': `[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists in reverse.
01:27:01 <tswett> I'm encountering a dumb problem with my Dvorak bot.
01:27:15 <tswett> When I compile, it seems to compile successfully, but it doesn't actually create the executable.
01:27:16 <oerjan> `le/rn hoag/`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists in reverse.
01:27:18 <HackEgo> Relearned 'hoag': `[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists in reverse.
01:27:30 <boily> why “t” for reverse?
01:28:24 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian).
01:28:45 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hdt
01:29:49 <tswett> Here we go. I see that the build of the project is failing.
01:30:05 <oerjan> `slwd hoag//in r.*/oldest first./
01:30:06 <tswett> Only problem is, it fails without any error messages.
01:30:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/hoag//n r.*/oldest first./ \ `[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists in reverse.
01:30:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: r3evert: not found
01:30:46 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:30:54 <oerjan> `slwd hoag//s/in r.*/oldest first./
01:30:56 <HackEgo> wisdom/hoag//`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first.
01:32:41 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Defence comes in the form of a pair of functions E, D : Str -> Str, where D(E(s)) = s; when you take damage in the form of a function f : Str -> Str, your HP is first protected with E (which modifies the string to add "armor"), then f is applied (dealing damage), then D is applied (removing the stuff E added; if f(x) is identity (no damage), you lose nothing)
01:34:01 * boily counters target hppavilion[1]
01:34:25 <HackEgo> 2016-10-23 <oerjän> ` cd bin; for f in doa dow hoa how; do mkx "${f}t//${f}g "\'"$@"\'" | tac"; done
01:35:02 <HackEgo> hlnp --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
01:35:06 <shachaf> oerjan: you forgot the original original hth
01:35:33 <oerjan> shachaf: it didn't quite fit the pattern. also it's hardly ever used any more.
01:35:36 <hppavilion[1]> An interesting form of armor is y-armor, which performs a temporary substitution on your nick by taking two disjoint lists of characters A and B, and every character in the nick that is in A is replaced with the corresponding character in B and vice versa
01:35:52 <HackEgo> <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/hg log/hlnp/\' bin/{doag,hog} \ <fizzïe> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ <shachäf> sled bin/hog//s/"\\$@"/-- "$@"/ \ <shachäf> mkx bin/hog//hg log --template "{desc}\\n" "$@"
01:35:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: haog: not found
01:36:09 <HackEgo> <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/hg log/hlnp/\' bin/{doag,hog} \ <fizzïe> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ <jeffl3̈5> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ <shachäf> sled bin/hog//s/"\\$@"/-- "$@"/ \ <shachäf> mkx bin/hog//hg log --template "{desc}\\n" "$@"
01:36:22 <shachaf> oerjan: notice how hog doesn't product the annoying rm line tdh
01:36:51 <oerjan> shachaf: that would be more convincing if it also dropped the `revert
01:37:38 <shachaf> the difference is that it doesn't log removals, i think
01:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> Attacks are applied both to the attacker AND the victim, so you have to regex golf it
01:37:53 <HackEgo> Your venerated itymologist gnite gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:38:08 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#venerated#revertebrate#
01:38:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your revertebrate itymologist gnite gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:38:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, not so much golf as choose wisely; you can't use arbitrary substitution attacks)
01:40:00 <shachaf> `learn A dowg is a wise dog.
01:40:01 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring.
01:40:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'dowg': A dowg is a wise dog.
01:40:09 <hppavilion[1]> so y/abcdefg/hijklmn/ armor would protect me against attacks targeting 'hpp' by making me "apphvbebog[1]"
01:40:21 <shachaf> Dowgs are mythological animals, of course.
01:40:33 <boily> aurgh. once again I am outlengthed by oerjan.
01:42:12 <boily> why shouldn't I \oren\ the fact that I Capital?
01:42:34 <boily> no, but this morning I had my tuque. -1 °C when I walked to take the bus.
01:42:36 <shachaf> don't verb people, it's rude
01:42:59 <boily> hppavilion[1]: grammar's my bitch, yo.
01:43:24 <HackEgo> Ichtymology is like itymology, but even more fishy.
01:44:48 <lambdabot> ENVA 262350Z 15004KT 9999 FEW040 BKN065 05/02 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 17010KT
01:44:52 <lambdabot> CYUL 270000Z VRB02KT 15SM -SHSN OVC048 03/M05 A3048 RMK SC8 CVCTV CLDS EMBD SLP326
01:45:19 <boily> . o O ( I should visit Norway some time. looks like a warm place to be... )
01:45:22 <oerjan> boily: it actually rained today for the first time in weeks. not really frosty.
01:45:57 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
01:46:03 <shachaf> As fish go, the gold is fishier than the sword.
01:46:31 <oerjan> `learn_append norway It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec.
01:46:34 <HackEgo> Learned 'norway': Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced. It's a warm, dry place, at least compared to Québec.
01:46:57 <shachaf> oerjan: What do you think about modifying le/rn such that if the text doesn't contain a /, it splits on the first space?
01:47:08 <shachaf> That's how people use it anyway.
01:47:19 <shachaf> On the other hand, it's kind of error-prone if the text contains a / much later.
01:47:22 * boily *trout* shachaf. 0.73 SH.
01:49:11 -!- `^_^v has joined.
01:49:29 <boily> no, I just wanted to trout somebody ^^
01:49:50 <shachaf> SH = strong hallucination hth
01:50:18 <oerjan> shachaf: no, i don't think so. there are enough error pronings already.
01:50:50 <HackEgo> sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "$verb '$key': $value"
01:51:51 <HackEgo> cat: bin/error: No such file or directory
01:52:01 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/error: No such file or directory
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02:04:13 <oerjan> `slwd bin/slashlearn//s/; /\n/g
02:04:38 <shachaf> are you sure that shouldn't be Rwsebud
02:04:44 <oerjan> `sled bin/slashlearn//s/; /\n/g
02:04:46 <HackEgo> bin/slashlearn//sep="/" \ [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1 \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "$verb '$key': $value"
02:05:13 <oerjan> `le/rn testing/Testing is important.
02:05:15 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Testing is important.
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02:05:32 <shachaf> oerjan: you should invent sloshlearn, a variant of slashlearn to be used when you are sloshed
02:05:40 <oerjan> shachaf: well in `sled it replaces an e.
02:05:54 <oerjan> but i guess in `hoag it replaces an a.
02:06:14 <shachaf> that e isn't really a vowel, is the problem
02:07:40 <oerjan> `sled bin/slashlearn//7s![&].*!&& echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed 's.^[/ ].&.')"!
02:07:41 <HackEgo> bin/slashlearn//sep="/" \ [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1 \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "$verb '$key': $value"&& echo "$verb '$key': $value" echo -n "$verb '$key': $(ech
02:07:59 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:08:51 <oerjan> `sled bin/slashlearn//7s![&].*!\&\& echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed 's.^[/ ].\&.')"!
02:08:52 <HackEgo> bin/slashlearn//sep="/" \ [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1 \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed 's.^[/ ].&.')"
02:09:23 <oerjan> `le/rn testing//Testing to the limit!
02:09:25 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': /Testing to the limit!
02:09:44 <oerjan> `le/rn testing/Test passed!
02:09:46 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Test passed!
02:09:54 <shachaf> what, it recognizes the error but does it anyway?
02:10:04 <oerjan> shachaf: well you might want to actually do it.
02:10:11 <shachaf> You can use le//rn to do it.
02:10:21 <oerjan> shachaf: that would require detecting which was used.
02:10:49 <oerjan> shachaf: also the space case can be done with // too.
02:10:51 <hppavilion[1]> I vote that to make a command wisdom-specific, we use s/[aeiouAEIOU](.*?)$/w\1/
02:10:52 <tswett> If anyone wants to watch the development of my Dvorak bot, head over to #tswett-dvorak.
02:10:58 <tswett> Currently, it doesn't really do anything. It just connects.
02:11:12 <tswett> And joins the channel.
02:11:16 <shachaf> Do people do the space thing?
02:11:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's already inconsistent with `howg hth
02:11:52 <oerjan> shachaf: i've seen two people do it.
02:12:15 <shachaf> oerjan: define `le//rsp that supports spaces hth
02:12:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure minimization works that way.
02:12:52 <oerjan> that is, you cannot affect which vowel it's chosen first.
02:13:19 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: iirc, <e>*? means to find the shortest match for e
02:13:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm doubtful.
02:14:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So in "abbbbbbcbbbbbbcde", /a.*c/ will match "abbbbbbcbbbbbbc" whereas /a.*?c/ will match "abbbbbbc"
02:17:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm basically trying to say that 'w' replaces the last vowel (where y isn't ever a vowel)
02:17:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: but you cannot affect which _a_ is chosen.
02:17:36 <oerjan> also, it's inconsistent with `cwlprits >:)
02:17:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Why are we debating this, exactly? It was a symbolic representation, not an actual command xD
02:17:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprwts: not found
02:19:23 <oerjan> i suppose a synonym might not be too bad.
02:20:43 <oerjan> shachaf: anyway, i had two ideas for what to do about this // confusion thing and the other was basically to drop the single vs. double / distinction.
02:21:05 <oerjan> (and always require //, like most newer commands now standardize on)
02:21:42 <oerjan> although that was before people started doing the space thing.
02:21:56 <oerjan> (i think one of them must have watched the other do it, or something.)
02:22:32 <shachaf> I've considered it before.
02:22:34 <HackEgo> <alercäh> le/rn Civilization/ It is rumoured that Taneb invented civilization, but this is false. It was actually invented by Sid Meier, who also invented cities. \ <alercäh> le/rn phnglui/This wisdom existed only to test a command, but then it was deleted. \ <alercäh> le/rn randomized algorithms/Nobody tell hppavilion[1] about randomized
02:22:55 <shachaf> `` hoag | grep 'le/rn.*/ '
02:22:58 <HackEgo> <Zarutiän> le/rn religious nut/ This nut should never be eaten as it make people think they are pious but it actually doesnt. Found on the burning bush. \ <Zarutiän> le/rn chargeback/ The backside of an Coloumb. \ <Zarutiän> le/rn segmentation fault/ The segmentation fault can be found just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce var
02:23:00 <oerjan> `` hoag | grep Zarutia
02:23:03 <HackEgo> <Zarutiän> le/rn religious nut/ This nut should never be eaten as it make people think they are pious but it actually doesnt. Found on the burning bush. \ <Zarutiän> le/rn chargeback/ The backside of an Coloumb. \ <Zarutiän> le/rn segmentation fault/ The segmentation fault can be found just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce var
02:23:10 <shachaf> `` doag | grep 'le/rn.*/ ' | tac
02:23:13 <HackEgo> 2015-11-03 <oerjän> le/rn \xe2\x98\x83/Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ 2015-11-23 <oerjän> le/rn russell\'s teapot/Russell\'s Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. \ 2015-11-23 <oerjän> le/rn russell\'s teapot/Russell\'s Teapot / Short and stout /
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02:23:38 <shachaf> `` doag | egrep 'le/rn.*[^\S]/ ' | tac
02:23:41 <HackEgo> 2015-11-03 <oerjän> le/rn \xe2\x98\x83/Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ 2015-11-23 <oerjän> le/rn russell\'s teapot/Russell\'s Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. \ 2015-11-23 <oerjän> le/rn russell\'s teapot/Russell\'s Teapot / Short and stout /
02:23:44 <HackEgo> shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän shachäf shachäf fizzïe evilips̈e shachäf shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y shachäf shachäf oerjän
02:23:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swspects: not found
02:24:21 <shachaf> `` doag | egrep 'le/rn.*\S/ ' | tac
02:24:24 <HackEgo> 2016-01-03 <\oren̈\> le/rn minski/to minski on : /m\xc9\xaanski\xcb\x90/ To act as a minski machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer. \ 2016-02-14 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn trisecting the angle/Angle Trisection is an open problem that you should /definitely/ try to solve! For gl
02:24:25 <HackEgo> This nut should never be eaten as it make people think they are pious but it actually doesnt. Found on the burning bush.
02:24:43 <shachaf> `1 doat | egrep 'le/rn.*\S/ '
02:24:46 <HackEgo> 1/6:2016-01-03 <\oren̈\> le/rn minski/to minski on : /m\xc9\xaanski\xcb\x90/ To act as a minski machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer. \ 2016-02-14 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn trisecting the angle/Angle Trisection is an open problem that you should /definitely/
02:24:52 <HackEgo> 2016-10-22 <Zarutiän> le/rn religious nut/ This nut should never be eaten as it make people think they are pious but it actually doesnt. Found on the burning bush.
02:25:16 <HackEgo> 2/6:try to solve! For glory and honor! \ 2016-05-17 <coppr̈o> le/rn algebraic chess notation/ algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess \ 2016-05-31 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry /would/ read you if it weren\'t for the fact that IRC hadn\'t been invented at the time \
02:27:21 <oerjan> never mind, i wasn't sure if you'd noticed :P
02:30:29 <oerjan> `slwd religious nut//s/ This/The religious/
02:30:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/religious nut//The religious nut should never be eaten as it make people think they are pious but it actually doesnt. Found on the burning bush.
02:31:00 * oerjan decided to only do minimal cleanup.
02:31:13 <shachaf> come on, at least clean up the apostroph'e
02:31:43 <shachaf> at least clean up the whole wisdom entry twh
02:34:43 <oerjan> `le/rn religious nut/The religious nut is found on the burning bush. Eating it makes people think they are pious, but rarely correctly so.
02:34:46 <HackEgo> Relearned 'religious nut': The religious nut is found on the burning bush. Eating it makes people think they are pious, but rarely correctly so.
02:34:59 <shachaf> People think they're not correctly pious?
02:36:18 <oerjan> shachaf: that was the part i had trouble deciding
02:36:42 <oerjan> i guess i was not correctly so.
02:36:55 <shachaf> I don't even know what the original sentence is saying.
02:37:10 <shachaf> It makes people think they are pious, but it actually doesn't [make people think they are pious]?
02:37:49 <oerjan> shachaf: well that was obviously an error.
02:38:03 <oerjan> made by a non-native english speaker.
02:38:36 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn religious nut/Technically, it isn't so much a nut as a variety of countable bean.
02:38:38 <HackEgo> Relearned 'religious nut': Technically, it isn't so much a nut as a variety of countable bean.
02:38:47 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:38:56 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn_append religious nut/Technically, it isn't so much a nut as a variety of countable bean.
02:38:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'religious nut': The religious nut is found on the burning bush. Eating it makes people think they are pious, but rarely correctly so. Technically, it isn't so much a nut as a variety of countable bean.
02:39:12 <shachaf> you always have to add something to wisdom entries
02:39:33 <shachaf> it doesn't matter whether it fits, or the entry is already overdone
02:40:15 <oerjan> i'm not sure if that fits or not, what's a countable bean?
02:40:46 <oerjan> i guess i'm not really familiar with bean counters.
02:41:13 <shachaf> i think hppavilion[1] is thinking of bead counters hth
02:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> (pleasedontberightpleasedontberightpleasedontberight)
02:41:47 <oerjan> shachaf: if those had actually been homonyms, that would have been a good addition i think.
02:42:06 <shachaf> I was just painting a rosy picture of the situation.
02:42:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it works better explicitly hth
02:42:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think it's a disparaging typically applied to niggardly people who keep track of money down to tenths of a cent (mills?)
02:43:21 <hppavilion[1]> It was an attempt to stab at the use of religion as a source of income by e.g. the Catholic church
02:43:24 <oerjan> /kickban hppavilion[1] How dare you use that word!
02:43:26 <shachaf> Anyway, bean counting has nothing to do with religion.
02:43:30 <shachaf> Bead counting obviously does.
02:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: 'niggardly' is stingy and bears to etymological relationship to the OTHER 'n' word
02:44:32 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:44:46 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, and it wouldn't matter if 'bean' and 'bead' are homo/nym/s per se, just that they're homographs
02:45:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that was the joke (TM)
02:46:26 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, if homophones share pronunciation, homographs share spelling, and homonyms share both
02:46:37 <oerjan> istr there's an anecdote or possibly true story about someone getting in trouble for it
02:46:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22
02:47:47 <HackEgo> wisdom/religious nut//The religious nut is found on the burning bush. Eating it makes people think they are pious, but rarely correctly so.
02:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> So presumably heterophones aren't homophones (and, therefor, also not homonyms), heterographs aren't homographs (ditto), and heteronyms aren't either
02:48:04 <hppavilion[1]> Then by analogy to homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual
02:48:33 <hppavilion[1]> Which sounds like stupid generalization, but I can justify how it's a thing
02:49:09 <oerjan> it seems to just mean "anything" in this case
02:49:47 <oerjan> i mean, every pair of words is either hetero- or homo- either of those
02:49:57 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Bisexuals aren't people who are gay xor straight (and not both), they're essentially the 'both'
02:50:29 <oerjan> yes, but that requires more than one pairing to be considered
02:50:30 <hppavilion[1]> biphones are when at least one has multiple correct pronunciations (regional or otherwise) and at least one of them overlaps with the other (AND at least one correct pronunciation is NOT shared by the other)
02:50:31 <shachaf> your classification of the world is confusing and probably wrong hth
02:50:44 <oerjan> shachaf: s/your/everyone's/
02:51:58 <hppavilion[1]> binyms are when multiple correct spellings exist where there is at least one spelling that both share AND at least one that they do NOT share (not sure whether we require that each have one the other doesn't)
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02:53:17 <hppavilion[1]> And binyms meet both requirements (whether they have to not correlate (i.e. one group always uses one pronunciation and spelling, another uses the other- basically just Norway/Sweden/Denmark) is up for debate)
02:54:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh btw i think your digraph question the other day trivially reduces to an undirected graph, since if there aren't edges both ways between pairs they're not considered.
02:54:45 <oerjan> still don't know if it's an easy or hard problem.
02:54:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'd say that whether they both have to have a pronunciation/spelling the other doesn't is the difference between a biphone/bigraph/binym and a strict biphone/bigraph/binym
02:55:53 <oerjan> on wikipedia, i found the assignment problem and the stable roommate problem, but neither fits the setup.
02:56:15 <oerjan> (the first is essentially heteronormative, the second requires full priority lists)
02:56:52 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_roommates_problem
02:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The polyamory generalization makes it harder, of course
02:57:18 <oerjan> well i didn't consider that. it seems ill defined without further info.
02:57:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, I just remembered I didn't ever provide it and haven't defined it properly yet
02:58:52 <hppavilion[1]> I'd say we use the same setup as before, but add a second type of undirected edge called a "can-tolerate" edge, AND label each node with a natural number >= 2
03:00:01 <hppavilion[1]> (*a natural number >= 2 OR the alternative value omega, which is a standin for "no bound")
03:01:10 <oerjan> oh i think i found a more relevant article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matching_(graph_theory)
03:02:13 <hppavilion[1]> A person will only accept a relationship if (1) everyone else shares an edge with them (2) the relationship includes at least 1 love (non-"can tolerate") edge and (3) the size of the relationship is AT MOST equal to their k-value (or k = omega)
03:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> [this is only a particular type of polyamory- the "more than 2" brand. Other kinds are used, iirc]
03:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm giving players on the bot attributes- one of them is FNO (fnordicity)
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03:04:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think your initial question may be equivalent to finding what that last article calls a "maximum" matching (which is not the same as "maximal".)
03:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: a maximum matching is also a maximal matching hth
03:06:44 <oerjan> yes. but not the reverse, which means it can be much harder to find.
03:08:22 <hppavilion[1]> You know, I really want to know what circumstances lead to people creating the Ménage problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9nage_problem
03:08:38 <hppavilion[1]> It's obviously French, and it's probably a sex thing
03:08:53 <oerjan> "There is a O ( V 2 E ) {\displaystyle O(V^{2}E)} O(V^{2}E) time algorithm to find a maximum matching or a maximum weight matching in a graph that is not bipartite; it is due to Jack Edmonds, is called the paths, trees, and flowers method or simply Edmonds' algorithm, and uses bidirected edges."
03:09:39 <oerjan> huh it pasted 3 representations of the formula
03:11:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think it's more a high society dining thing hth
03:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but there has to be a reason high society decided things have to be that way
03:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: My guess is that it's because if a couple is sitting together, they might do hand stuff under the table
03:12:12 <hppavilion[1]> Except that doesn't quite work, because it's french...
03:13:43 <oerjan> '"Ménage" is the French word for "household" (referring here to a male-female couple).'
03:14:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blossom_algorithm
03:15:12 <oerjan> "A major reason that the blossom algorithm is important is that it gave the first proof that a maximum-size matching could be found using a polynomial amount of computation time."
03:15:15 <shachaf> suffix arrays are the best
03:15:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm pretty sure the problem has no solution with 3 people hth
03:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, I mean a Ménage is a household [of a male-female couple] unless it's a Ménage à trois
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05:18:32 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
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05:22:31 <oerjan> shachaf: let's not bring american politics into wisdom tdnh
05:23:29 <shachaf> oerjan: you mean post-1991 american politics hth
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05:24:33 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
05:24:41 <HackEgo> Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
05:24:55 <shachaf> well, it's there somewhere
05:25:16 <HackEgo> In ancient history, the Soviet Union used to be the THEM. They believed in absurd principles like "Better Red than Dead". Then Ronald Reagan invented Star Wars to destroy it, after which there seemed to be no the THEM for a while.
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05:30:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50057&oldid=45619 * Quintopia * (+14) /* Assignment */
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05:31:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50058&oldid=50057 * Quintopia * (+86) /* a and b */
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05:37:15 <HackEgo> Ambiguous, from greek 'ἀν-' lack of, and 'βιγος' clarity of meaning, means when something is unclear in its meaning. Antonym: biguous.
05:37:54 <oerjan> `slwd ambiguous//s/ο/ό/
05:37:56 <HackEgo> wisdom/ambiguous//Ambiguous, from greek 'ἀν-' lack of, and 'βιγός' clarity of meaning, means when something is unclear in its meaning. Antonym: biguous.
05:38:35 <oerjan> `slwd ambiguous//s/gr/Gr/
05:38:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/ambiguous//Ambiguous, from Greek 'ἀν-' lack of, and 'βιγός' clarity of meaning, means when something is unclear in its meaning. Antonym: biguous.
05:40:56 <oerjan> i recall that it's actually cognate to ambassador, in a very roundabout way.
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06:48:16 <hppavilion[1]> Is the study of sign language still considered a (sub)field of phonetics?
06:49:39 <pikhq> Wouldn't that be... linguistics?
06:53:58 <shachaf> is the study of sine language considered a subfield of acoustics?
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07:54:40 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: A sine language with very simple rules and few words is approximately equal to itself
07:57:13 <hppavilion[1]> The smaller a language with finite rules gets, the fewer possibilities there are
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08:07:14 <shachaf> In sign language you communicate only with pluses and minuses.
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09:13:40 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: atbash :: [Char] -> t
09:13:40 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘atanh’ (imported from Numeric)
09:36:09 <shachaf> a version of bash with explicit type applications hth
09:39:15 <lifthrasiir> I thought it's a version of bash but with a default environment of IFS=@
09:39:31 <lifthrasiir> allows for (mostly) quote-free command lines
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09:46:34 <oerjan> @let atbash = map $ \c -> if (isAscii c && isAlpha c) then chr $ ord c `xor` 31 - 4 else c
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10:39:54 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates is a real book
10:40:34 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I think my uni's library has that
10:41:03 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.amazon.com/Million-Random-Digits-Normal-Deviates/product-reviews/0833030477/
10:41:35 <Taneb> ...I actually learnt about this sort of thing in school
10:43:10 <shachaf> mathematical tanebventions include A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates
10:43:13 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
10:43:26 <HackEgo> String diagrams would be useful in category theory, except they're unreadable due to being curled up in tiny dimensions. Taneb invented them anyhow.
10:43:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that book has some good reviews
10:44:00 <shachaf> Why did you invent string diagrams?
10:44:15 <Taneb> shachaf, I had some spare string
10:44:21 <Taneb> Decided to make it useful
10:45:50 <oerjan> Taneb: so there's nothing to the rumors they were an attempt to keep your eyebrows in check?
10:46:08 <HackEgo> nortti is a very nortti boy. He yielded to shikhin's promises, and now is his High Priest.
10:46:15 <Taneb> oerjan, my eyebrows are long past that point I am afraid
10:48:23 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:48:46 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s#sand#&, dragons#
10:48:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:48:57 <HackEgo> Sand is what microprocessors are made of. Taneb invented it.
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11:05:51 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzMLA8YIgG0 this looks so insanely cool
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11:34:36 <HackEgo> eliot//Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
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11:40:38 <Taneb> I really need to do more with this bot
11:41:43 <Taneb> Tanebot: df iiioiosso
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11:42:08 <boily> Tanelle! wasn't that supposed to print 81?
11:42:33 <Taneb> Tanebot: df iiioiodsso
11:42:35 <boily> Tanebot: df ioioisioisio
11:43:28 <Taneb> Tanebot has no mouth
11:43:57 <boily> can you graft one?
11:44:40 <boily> fungot: can you lend your mouth to Tanebot? you do have at least one mouth, yes?
11:44:41 <fungot> boily: can't tell you why i don't take it seriously; ork and your hats are cool :)
11:44:54 <boily> fungot: I'm a man of few hats.
11:44:54 <fungot> boily: my mother wasn't born fnord :p
11:45:18 <boily> fungot: okay, I only have a baseball cap and a tuque.
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11:50:33 <lambdabot> CYUL 271000Z 02008KT 15SM FEW050 BKN250 M01/M05 A3047 RMK SC1CI6 SC TR SLP323
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11:56:26 <Taneb> I'm gonna leave that on while I go to lectures I think
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13:20:46 <Taneb> Tanebot: df iiisiiso
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16:24:15 <quintopia> i dont understand brainfuckconstants/ordered. for some reason it sorts constants on the number of cycles, without including tbe fastest programs
16:24:58 <quintopia> most of the programs take more steps thsn the number they create on tape
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17:05:11 <\oren\> he book is a promising reference concept, but the execution is somewhat sloppy. Whatever generator they used was not fully tested. The bulk of each page seems random enough. However at the lower left and lower right of alternate pages, the number is found to increment directly.
17:08:18 <\oren\> -- Amazon review for A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates
17:23:42 <b_jonas> that one takes a while to understand
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17:36:26 <\oren\> I voted for jennifer hollett not chrystia freeland, therefore I can't be blamed for whatver the bad results of this trade deal are
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18:49:13 <\oren\> do people seriously go around harassing their competitors at trade shows
18:49:21 <\oren\> like srsly what is going on
18:50:18 <\oren\> apparently one of my coworkers is at a trade show and getting harassed by a competitor
18:52:14 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like the opposite of "afk" should be "fk", but acronomically it would be "ak"
18:52:14 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: nah, that's illegal in canada
18:52:47 <\oren\> pepper spray is a prohibited weapon
18:52:53 <hppavilion[1]> Like, I knew you guys didn't have guns (except, presumably, for moose hunting)
18:53:10 <\oren\> http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-462/
18:54:04 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's non-lethal, so it seems like the optimal self-defensive weapon for the Canadese...
18:54:42 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, "Canadese" sounds like it could be the name of a Chinese language. Probably related to (or an alternate transcription of) "Cantonese")
18:57:01 <\oren\> prohibited non firearms include tear gas, pepper spray, nunchuks, shuriken, kusari, bladed rings, electroshock weapons of pretty much any kind, crossbows shorter than 50 cm, weapons resembling common objects disguising blades,
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18:58:06 <\oren\> blowguns, morningstars, brass knuckles,
18:58:15 <imode> why are brass knuckles illegal again
18:58:23 <b_jonas> wait, crossbows shorter than 50 cm?
18:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> (So you can't have a crossbow if it can be hidden, but if it's a really big, powerful one... it's OK?)
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18:59:39 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe crossbows longer than 50 cm are just considered firearms?)
19:00:08 <\oren\> regualr swords are ok to own, as are longbows, big crossbows,
19:00:21 <imode> wow, why _are_ brass knuckles illegal.
19:00:26 <\oren\> and like spears and such
19:00:40 <\oren\> imode: presumably because they can easily be concealed
19:01:04 <imode> so if I just wear a bunch of rings.
19:01:23 <\oren\> automatic firearms are completely banned
19:01:59 <\oren\> and various specifc makes of guna re banned by name
19:02:10 <\oren\> "The firearm of the design commonly known as the Franchi SPAS 12 shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Franchi LAW 12 shotgun."
19:03:04 <\oren\> "The firearm of the design commonly known as the AK-47 rifle, and any variant or modified version of it except for the Valmet Hunter, the Valmet Hunter Auto and the Valmet M78 rifles, but including the"
19:03:52 <\oren\> "The firearm of the design commonly known as the Thompson submachine gun, and any variant or modified version of it, including the"
19:05:00 <\oren\> all bullpup guns are banned
19:07:12 <b_jonas> wait, they banned the AK-47?
19:08:20 <\oren\> b_jonas: it's an automatic weapon?
19:08:49 <\oren\> in the criminal code, there's some more bannings
19:09:18 <\oren\> any handgun less than 105 mm in barrel length
19:09:58 <\oren\> any shotgun or rifle less than 457 mm in barrel length
19:10:32 <\oren\> and any spring-loaded or gravity knife
19:11:03 <\oren\> oh and any automatic gun
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19:17:16 <hppavilion[1]> ...I just realized the etymological relationship that "predicates" are "predicative" because they "predict"
19:17:59 <pikhq> imode: Brass knuckles are both easily concealed and pretty much exclusively associated with criminal activity.
19:18:28 <imode> pikhq: kind of funny. so I can't own brass knuckles to defend myself because criminals own them.
19:18:39 <imode> I cannot own a specific configuration of a piece of metal or plastic.
19:18:54 <\oren\> but you can own a large machete
19:19:30 <\oren\> or a steel baseball bat
19:20:00 <pikhq> Nobody's gonna be surprised by your machete or baseball bat, though.
19:20:03 <imode> the act is already illegal, why are we going after the methods.
19:20:27 <pikhq> imode: Because people like to think that banning an object that has some illegal uses makes the illegal actions go away.
19:20:42 <imode> that's nice. talk to bouncers.
19:22:18 <imode> they wear weighted gloves.
19:24:42 <\oren\> imode: pretty sure those are considered at least "weapons"
19:24:59 <imode> but they aren't illegal and they are equivalent and easily concealed.
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19:27:52 <FaerieFly> At least here, you can't wear a large machete or a steel baseball bat in public
19:27:57 <pikhq> Only a fool would pretend this area of law is all that consistent or logical.
19:28:11 <imode> doesn't stop me from pointing it out.
19:28:15 <FaerieFly> you can probably own a brass knuckle if you keep it in your home, but I can't say I've researched the subject thoroughly
19:28:24 <imode> because if we stop doing that, it becomes normal.
19:29:40 <FaerieFly> then again I suspect a lot of people would find our weapons laws to be baffling
19:29:54 <\oren\> not entirely certain what rights bouncers even have under our laws. they probably can't get away with using weapons
19:30:13 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighted-knuckle_glove
19:30:17 <FaerieFly> you can't carry knives in public places at all in general
19:31:09 <FaerieFly> good thing US law doesn't apply in sweden :p
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19:43:10 <hppavilion[1]> You know, I really want to make a slight modification of english intended solely for conjugating verbs when time travel is involved
19:43:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, english++ is the bf derivative of conlangs, but this is just a practical matter)
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19:45:39 <Zarutian> \oren\: what about that riot foam stuff?
19:48:08 <Hoolootwo> just read Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations :P
19:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> From Hitchhiker's Guide. That's at least consolation.
19:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> (1) figure out all the things (2) derive tenses (3; additional) add English conjugation forms
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19:58:45 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( 1/0 can't be ω because 1/ω = ε and 1/(1/x) = x )
20:00:45 <imode> how in god's name do you folks type out unicode characters.
20:00:56 <imode> I'm on a US keyboard.
20:01:31 <shachaf> On my home computer, I'd press Ctrl-Shift-U and then type 3 C 9
20:01:34 <Hoolootwo> if I want to speak German I switch my keyboard layout to a german one
20:02:12 <shachaf> (Without letting go of Ctrl and Shift.)
20:02:48 <shachaf> Or I'd press a key that opens up a terminal with all the code points, and then I'd search it.
20:03:23 <shachaf> The file is (a newer version of) http://slbkbs.org/unic.txt
20:03:38 <shachaf> I just less -r it or something.
20:03:41 <imode> that's incredibly useful.
20:04:07 <pikhq> I've got a compose key configured, personally.
20:04:17 <shachaf> I generate it from ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
20:04:19 <pikhq> And for Japanese text I switch to my Japanese IME.
20:04:26 <shachaf> I used to have a compose key but no longer.
20:04:50 <shachaf> But neither of those worked for Greek letters.
20:04:58 <imode> how'd you generate it from this?
20:05:02 <shachaf> I could configure custom Compose sequences, probably.
20:05:17 <shachaf> Well, that particular file isn't generated from that text. But I generated a nearly identical file from it.
20:05:23 <shachaf> Using a small script, I think.
20:06:22 <shachaf> This is all on my other computer so I can't tell you the details.
20:06:40 <shachaf> But anyway I have Win-U set up to open a big terminal with a less of that file, and then I just search it.
20:06:55 <imode> that's a pretty good idea.
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20:36:46 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kdwUOlihDA
20:37:20 <\oren\> I have a custom tmux file that does it
20:43:52 <\oren\> you can also use an ime to do it: switch to japanese and type arufa to get
20:46:11 <shachaf> I like the githelp extension in https://bitbucket.org/facebook/hg-experimental
20:48:11 <\oren\> ❄︎ oh cool I can also type a snowflake with my ime if I type yuki
20:52:09 <\oren\> lets see can I type a snowman?
20:54:14 <\oren\> I guess this is why emoji were so easy to get in japan. they use an ime, so there's no need for some speacial selection screen...
20:54:54 <\oren\> all they do is put in as custom 'kanji' with custom 'pronounciations'
20:57:48 * APic somehow likes Japan, even though i have never been there
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21:07:59 <\oren\> APic: going there, you really need to speak some japanese, because very few japanese speak good english
21:10:28 * APic will probably not go there in the next few Years
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00:13:57 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pUL7u-mYqA
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01:09:23 <DHeadshot> You're not thinking of KPa (Kg/m^2) are you?
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01:37:09 <DHeadshot> hppavilion[1]: in which case, the unit is literally just kg/m^3 - not anything fancy...
01:40:47 <DHeadshot> sorry, I read the first line and substituted in the second...
01:48:18 <shachaf> copumpkin: https://www.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromebook-replacement/dp/B01CQTK6GU hth
01:48:37 <shachaf> Hmm, only up to 60W, though.
02:04:54 <hppavilion[1]> Here's a fun little symmetric transposition cypher
02:06:05 <hppavilion[1]> It encrypts and decrypts a message by taking every part of the message between and excluding two characters in C (whether or not they're the same) and reversing their order
02:12:18 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Temperature is measured in terms of reciprocal volume.
02:12:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'temperature': Temperature is measured in terms of reciprocal volume.
02:24:13 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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02:24:29 <quintopia> i can maybe kind of see a situation in which might arise. like need to know what temperature to make an enclosure to heat a metal to a certain temp in a precise period of time
02:25:02 <quintopia> not sure it would scale linearly with volume though
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02:54:03 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( What's the 3D equivalent of compass and straightedge? )
02:59:09 <HackEgo> U+1F43E PAW PRINTS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 be UTF-16BE: d83ddc3e Decimal: 🐾 \ 🐾 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
02:59:22 <HackEgo> U+1F43E PAW PRINTS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 be UTF-16BE: d83ddc3e Decimal: 🐾 \ 🐾 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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03:01:25 <hppavilion[1]> I think that you need 6 (rather than 3) trigonometric functions & their reciprocals for 3D trig (tetranometry?)
03:03:06 <hppavilion[1]> That is, if you divide area rather than edges for the right tetrahedron definition.
03:03:59 <hppavilion[1]> (Ah, it's called a trirectangular tetrahedron, despite entirely lacking rectangles)
03:05:06 <shachaf> in a polyhydron, every time you cut off one vertex, it's replaced by several
03:08:25 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Cut off one vertex, k more for k=the number of edges connecting, assuming only one vertex is removed, will take its place
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03:15:26 <hppavilion[1]> Is the smallest shape that can be represented in euclidean n-space without curves or intersections always an (n+1)-hedron?
03:16:08 <alercah> what do you mean by "curve" and what do you mean by "shape" and what do you mean by "smallest" and what do you mean by "(n+1)-tope"
03:16:13 <alercah> and what do you mean by "represented"?
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04:14:09 <izalove> stupid optimization challenge #3234: write a program that reads hex input and converts it to binary digits
04:16:03 <FaerieFly> reads hex digits (and only hex digits) on stdout, outputting 4 bits per digit?
04:16:23 <FaerieFly> support for both uppercase and lowercase hex?
04:16:30 <izalove> no, output 4 bytes '0' or '1' per hex digit
04:16:48 <izalove> you can support only lowercase if you want
04:16:49 <FaerieFly> right, that's what I meant but phrased badly
04:17:55 <izalove> even brainfuck if you feel like it's gonna be competitive
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04:18:21 <FaerieFly> mostly curious what you used, for ease of comparing "algorithm" so to speak
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04:24:01 <FaerieFly> can't be arsed to benchmark it or really think too much, but here's something: http://xen.firefly.nu/up/hexdigits.c.html
04:24:52 <FaerieFly> Make sure to not feed a trailing newline, or if you do, ignore the trailing 1010 in the output
04:25:44 <FaerieFly> Hm maybe a LUT into a table of hardcoded strings would be faster
04:26:15 <FaerieFly> with the LUT getting cached early on.. but probably not since it's such a trivial computation
04:26:41 <Hoolootwo> that's what I was thinking, a direct index from the ascii character index into an array, aligned
04:27:12 <izalove> $ time ./fireflyh2b < /tmp/10m > /dev/null
04:27:14 <izalove> real: 0m3.978s, user: 0m3.677s, sys: 0m0.027s
04:27:17 <izalove> not bad as a first attempt
04:27:29 <Hoolootwo> on a modern CPU that would likely be fastest, but it's really hard to say because there's a lot of magic going on in CPUs
04:27:31 <FaerieFly> Let's try the LUT-of-all-256-bytes approach
04:27:44 <FaerieFly> I guess you can hack that up, izalove
04:28:00 <izalove> well i don't really need to <.<
04:28:21 <FaerieFly> can you post yours, or is that too boring?
04:29:09 <izalove> $ time for i in {1..10}; do ./izah2b </tmp/100m; done > /dev/null
04:29:12 <izalove> real: 0m6.729s, user: 0m5.053s, sys: 0m1.097s
04:30:17 <izalove> https://arin.ga/s89Spm/raw here it is, if you want to spoil the fun
04:30:22 <FaerieFly> 100m is uniformly distributed, yeah?
04:32:10 <FaerieFly> does that posix_fadvise make a difference if you benchmark it?
04:32:27 <FaerieFly> (how would default-stdin not be read sequentially...)
04:33:10 <izalove> $ time for i in {1..10}; do ./izah2b </tmp/100m; done > /dev/null
04:33:12 <FaerieFly> but that's a neat function to know about though
04:33:13 <izalove> real: 0m6.785s, user: 0m5.023s, sys: 0m1.147s
04:33:54 <FaerieFly> I'm sort of terrified why it doesn't just always do that by default
04:35:23 <izalove> and the variance on my disk is too high to benchmark it
04:35:47 <FaerieFly> I wonder if changing your h2d LUT to ((ch & 0xF) + (ch > 0x40) * 9)*4 affects performance?
04:38:27 <izalove> $ time ./izah2b < /tmp/100m >/dev/null
04:38:29 <izalove> real: 0m0.890s, user: 0m0.763s, sys: 0m0.093s
04:38:49 <izalove> with the table it's 0.6xxs
04:39:08 <izalove> https://arin.ga/ukqFii/raw
04:39:11 <FaerieFly> Surprised it makes such a difference
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05:33:26 <Hoolootwo> http://hooloovoo.blue/files/hoolootwo.c
05:33:53 <Hoolootwo> real 0m0.161s user 0m0.120s sys 0m0.040s
05:37:22 <izalove> but why would you use printf for \n
05:41:03 <Hoolootwo> I guess a putchar would have sufficed
05:41:28 <Hoolootwo> because that's the first thing I thought of, and it shouldn't affect performance
05:46:26 <Hoolootwo> I added a few optimizations, file is in the same place
05:47:13 <izalove> nice, it's faster than before
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06:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> 'TIS GREATAR THAN 22 SCORE SCORE AND 10 SCORE!!!!!!!
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06:21:38 <hppavilion[1]> How does one represent an arbitrary rational number in unary?
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06:22:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: first represent as natural number
06:22:31 <pecan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quote_notation I guess.
06:22:55 <oerjan> that makes no sense for unary afaict
06:23:18 * oerjan hates to type when he cannot see what he writes
06:23:45 <shachaf> oerjan: https://mosh.org/ hth
06:24:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: trouble is, there's no abvious thing other than 1 to divide the thing after the point by, which obviously doesn't give you any non-integers
06:24:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: dog slow internet and typing ahead hth
06:27:01 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a bad time to load web pages, obviously
06:27:24 <Hoolootwo> maybe just divide the one before the decimal point by the one after?
06:27:44 <oerjan> Hoolootwo: but then it's not really a decimal point
06:27:54 <oerjan> just a funny synonym for /
06:28:33 <FaerieFly> hppavilion[1]: just stick to unary fractions
06:32:03 <hppavilion[1]> cvs is coversine (which seems like it should be called vercosine, but eh)
06:32:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Diagram hth: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Circle-trig6.svg
06:33:54 <oerjan> you know, in norway we only learn sin, cos and tan of those in high school, and i think that's an excellent policy hth
06:34:48 <hppavilion[1]> (Though the sine <-> cosecant; cosine <-> secant thing is annoying)
06:35:00 <oerjan> by the fact they only showed up once i got university math books in english, i assumed it was an american thing
06:36:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Most of them are archaic, but still occasionally of use
06:37:17 <shachaf> are csc and all those other things an american thing
06:37:25 <oerjan> . o O ( why won't the trigonometer stop using archaic terms )
06:37:25 <shachaf> they're kind of pointless hth
06:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: csc(θ) = sin(θ)^-1, sec(θ) = cos(θ)^-1, cot(θ) = tan(θ)^-1
06:39:19 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'd probably write a thing with a triangle and a line over it
06:39:34 <shachaf> trigonometry is about circles hth
06:39:57 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Triangles are important too and the circles describe it counter-hth
06:40:56 <oerjan> it's all in the name, trigon is the ancient greek for circle hth
06:41:00 <hppavilion[1]> (take a right triangle with width proportioned to height by the the golden mean (for aesthetic purposes); right angle at the right side, hypotenuse going up when read ltr, only draw hypotenuse and vertical edge)
06:41:31 <hppavilion[1]> (cosine only draws hypotenuse and the horizontal edge, tangent only draws the orthagonal edges)
06:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What I really want is tetravertomy, which is all about spheres
06:44:42 <oerjan> surely it should tetrahedronometry
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06:45:56 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see my polyhydron pun earlier hth
06:47:07 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course, all of these are subfields of kplusuntopomy
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06:50:45 * oerjan stamps a large mirrored LERN2GREEK on hppavilion[1]'s forehead
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06:51:36 <oerjan> he's already overqualified for that
06:52:12 <izalove> joining this channel makes you overqualified
06:52:25 <izalove> i'm tempted to say that joining irc makes you overqualified
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07:13:36 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> ...I just realized the etymological relationship that "predicates" are "predicative" because they "predict" <-- surprisingly, that's incorrect. there are two different lating words "dico", one with short i, and one with long, and with different meanings. they're probably cognate if you go all the way back to PIE though.
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07:23:25 <oerjan> next up: how to mute the tab that you cannot find.
07:25:42 <shachaf> oerjan: chrome shows a little icon on tabs that are playing music hth
07:26:32 <oerjan> i knew you were going to say that.
07:26:57 <oerjan> fortunately it's not happening that often.
07:28:01 <oerjan> my main annoyance recently is that wikipedia's pretty diff extension has stopped working reliably.
07:29:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no, just experienced with what happens every time i mention my browser
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07:30:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i only said it because it was predictable hth
07:32:54 <oerjan> well hypothetically it was. it's not like i know the details of how other browsers work.
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07:39:13 <oerjan> finally i convinced hppavilion[1] this channel is too crazy for him
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07:54:43 <imode> anybody know a good, reliable place for static site hosting.
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08:24:49 <\oren\> someone should derive proto-C-Pascal and see how much of algol they can reconstruct
08:30:02 <\oren\> or maybe I'll do something like they did to construct Ido
08:48:53 <\oren\> assignment: c '=' fortran '=' pascal ':=' perl '='
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08:52:08 <HackEgo> oxford//The home of English, woven shirts, and the serial comma.
08:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> Debate Question: I have a teacher with lastname "Ingman". To pluralize her last name (e.g. to refer to a family), should one say "Ingmans" or "Ingmen"
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09:06:18 <oerjan> `slwd oxford//s/T/Oxford is t/
09:06:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/oxford//Oxford is the home of English, woven shirts, and the serial comma.
09:09:00 <\oren\> does england have a separate capital from that of the the UK
09:13:29 <oerjan> england doesn't have a separate parliament
09:13:53 <oerjan> (and it's pretty recent that any of the other parts got them)
09:22:25 <oerjan> @let hpciph c = reverse <=< groupBy ((&&)`on`(`notElem`c))
09:22:46 <oerjan> > hpciph "aeiou" "Testing hppavilion[1]'s cipher"
09:22:49 <\oren\> non non biyori is hilarus
09:23:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Just weird enough to confuse humans, not powerful enough to be secure :)
09:23:39 <\oren\> hey gnavilioc, your cipher reavls too much!
09:23:58 <hppavilion[1]> (But maybe if I took the bitstring down, flipped it, and reversed it...)
09:24:10 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘[Integer] -> t’
09:24:53 <oerjan> i suppose you technically didn't say the end parts should be reversed
09:25:14 <hppavilion[1]> At least, that's how it works in my implementation
09:25:29 <hppavilion[1]> That's only one though; this one is named 'split-reverse' in the lookup
09:26:47 <hppavilion[1]> There's another one ACTUALLY called 'multi-split-reverse' that instead reverses the order of things on the split rather than the split items
09:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> But the more interesting one, IMO, is multi-split-rotate, which instead rotates each string
09:27:40 <oerjan> @let hpciph2 c = concat . reverse . groupBy ((&&)`on`(`notElem`c))
09:27:54 <oerjan> > hpciph2 "aeiou" "Testing hppavilion[1]'s cipher"
09:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: To test that your implementation (of the first one) is conformant
09:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> key "aeiou", cyphertext " Iaht med al kros dratnacu ,sah dnavec omet od evoy ruohc ruirdleB .nob wefore ym uhnorw yla ,htob rec osnumew diy hto ruorpsffir dnA .gnemebmek riH :sdehw of im sthgotsnehs srob dluec areful ,leh tseb ecome am otsneh risme ;flahw dney nog uazel o gnitno a naht ,ssybe am ssybag yaze itnoy ou.
09:29:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: can you do it, i have trouble with multiline copying
09:29:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you have a decry- oh, right, it's identical
09:29:37 <oerjan> (the new version of irssi broke the feature that made it easy)
09:30:08 <hppavilion[1]> > hpciph "aeiou" " Iaht med al kros dratnacu ,sah dnavec omet od evoy ruohc ruirdleB .nob wefore ym uhnorw yla ,htob rec osnumew diy hto ruorpsffir dnA .gnemebmek riH :sdehw of im sthgotsnehs srob dluec areful ,leh tseb ecome am otsneh risme ;flahw dney nog uazel o gnitno a naht ,ssybe am ssybag yaze itnoy ou."
09:30:11 <lambdabot> "I am the dark lord santacus, and have come to devor yuor chuildren. Bow bef...
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09:30:39 <oerjan> lambdabot gives longer answers in private
09:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> My implementation has the same flaw, so it's a design issue
09:31:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you reverse the consecutive C members too?
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09:32:12 <hppavilion[1]> I think I see the issue is that consecutive vowels are dropped or... something in my impl
09:32:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: in my implementation consecutive vowels are kept in the original order
09:32:56 <oerjan> that's how i interpreted your description
09:33:16 <hppavilion[1]> (Really fun would be to reverse the order of the vowels before rejoining...)
09:33:22 <oerjan> @let hpciph3 c = reverse <=< groupBy ((==)`on`(`notElem`c))
09:33:53 <hppavilion[1]> > hpciph "aeiou" "I am the dark lord santacus, and have come to devour your children"
09:33:55 <lambdabot> " Iaht med al kros dratnacu ,sah dnavec omet od evouy rouhc rirdlen"
09:33:57 <oerjan> the monad part isn't what i changed >:)
09:34:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: note name change
09:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> > hpciph "aeiou" " Iaht med al kros dratnacu ,sah dnavec omet od evouy rouhc rirdlen"
09:34:17 <lambdabot> "I am the dark lord santacus, and have come to devour your children"
09:34:29 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, so your implementation works better than mine
09:34:45 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
09:34:54 <oerjan> I IMPLEMENTED A NEW FUNCTION
09:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> > hpciph3 "aeiou" "I am the dark lord santacus, and have come to devour your children"
09:35:27 <lambdabot> " Iaht med al kros dratnacu ,sah dnavec omet od evuoy ruohc rirdlen"
09:37:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: now it does reverse the vowel groups
09:38:10 <hppavilion[1]> > hpciph3 "aeiou" (hpciph "aeiou" "I am the dark lord santacus, and have come to devour your children")
09:38:13 <lambdabot> "I am the dark lord santacus, and have come to devuor yuor children"
09:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: When I said reverse the order of the vowels, I was aiming for something a bit different and more evil
09:40:03 <oerjan> i think i know what you meant, and it's hard to adapt this implementation to it
09:40:11 <hppavilion[1]> The vowel groups stay the same, but you join back up on them in reverse order
09:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> I was just doing cyphers because I needed a good streamed Vigenere implementation because my sister and I are reading Gravity Falls Journal #3
09:41:12 <hppavilion[1]> And there's an entire, 3-page letter written in Viginere. I have to enter it into the computer by hand to get the output.
09:43:06 <oerjan> not in about another half hour hth
09:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...I was trying to figure out what it means
09:45:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaWg298hzro
09:45:59 <oerjan> xkcd has updated but not freefall...
09:46:41 <\oren\> is there anyhting that cruel angel's thesis doesn't go with?!?
09:47:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Perhaps... my little pony: friendship is magic, season 5 finale (part 2), climactic lazer death battle (I swear it's true and 100% canon)
09:50:38 <HackEgo> Temperature is measured in terms of reciprocal volume.
09:50:50 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
10:05:48 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: open another 99
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10:47:03 <hppavilion[1]> It annoys me when people say "guess what", especially when they insist that you guess
10:47:12 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making a random sentence generator that will provide a guess
10:47:33 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: muff plf yjcu dlzyabsm yqkb bw jywp pvnpdeqw gmnzzb fxkeaae vk vkfts‽
10:47:50 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: That was what I hacked together in 10 seconds
10:48:12 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: I'm going to start improving it by mixing in real words, some phonetic rules, and punctuation
10:48:33 <izalove> `` shuf -n10 /usr/share/dict/words
10:48:34 <HackEgo> shuf: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
10:49:49 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, I wonder if I can still remember how to type PHNGLUI MGLW'NAFH CTHULHU R'LYEH WGAH'NAGL FHTAGN
10:51:10 <Jafet> izalove: it's not too difficult to max out memory while converting hex to binary, by the way: http://sprunge.us/YbTg
10:51:28 <Jafet> (3GB/s in cache, 1.5GB/s in memory on my computer)
10:52:57 <Jafet> there should be sse4 instructions for the same thing, but at half speed
10:53:18 <Jafet> not sure what "half speed" is, since it may be memory-limited
10:54:59 <Jafet> hey fungot, guess what
10:54:59 <fungot> Jafet: you know aheui uses hangul, so no directx. it's the only scheme implementation i know behaves this way... but who cares
11:01:51 <izalove> Jafet: can you make yours a complete program and then compare it vs mine on your machine? https://gist.github.com/izabera/03e42d25d0434fe6857172e01f9a95ed
11:21:54 <Jafet> hmm, I'm writing an sse4 version but gcc doesn't seem to have a 8->128 bit broadcast intrinsic
11:27:46 <Jafet> izalove: http://sprunge.us/ZFKg?c
11:27:54 <Jafet> the table lookup is surprisingly competitive
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11:36:38 <izalove> you rerolled my unrolled loop :C
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12:08:02 <boily> fungot: you roll 2d6.
12:08:03 <fungot> boily: i can assign an ordinal number n that can't be right. the communists under that era is harder so the distinction wouldn't be very hard
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12:10:28 <izalove> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1684041218/bud-spencer-and-terence-hill-slaps-and-beans so cool
12:10:29 <boily> fungot: then don't do it.
12:10:30 <fungot> boily: is it worth time invested to learn it anymore.
12:10:38 <boily> fungot: yes, but don't do it.
12:10:38 <fungot> boily: ' the main loop
12:10:43 <boily> fungot: noooooooo!
12:10:43 <fungot> boily: or " miss scheme"...
12:10:55 <boily> fungot: we have a Miss Scheme?
12:11:00 <Jafet> gcc seems to unroll it anyway (and eliminates the memcpy)
12:11:47 <Jafet> most impressively, gcc automatically vectorises the simple version
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12:34:57 <HackEgo> ystävämme yksineessänne keillisi seltani suurtumaksen vanne tyhjellämille laulukuppeille mattelegemiksen tyyneistammilleman
12:37:03 <fizzie> Only two real words (ystävämme, vanne) this time.
12:37:19 <fizzie> Although "laulukupeille" would have been fine as well.
12:37:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/words
12:38:13 <HackEgo> addotti ripendovia moni decessi siedetta levitubato grarecifrando sole conto vieresti
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14:26:45 <fizzie> In case someone remembers my previous rant about my mobile operator starting to show rounded-to-whole-gigabytes as the remaining data allowance -- now they've switched to what appears to be megabytes but with "Gigabytes" as the unit.
14:27:03 <fizzie> Either that, or they've bumped my allowance up to 316.98 gigabytes, which sounds unlikely.
14:27:12 <fizzie> (Especially since yesterday's value was >400.)
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14:59:16 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
14:59:33 <HackEgo> pàran bealbh bainntach bastap fògrafann shlian meirceannraic mùire deugh sgrùn
15:00:01 <HackEgo> b'ail láil span-ghaeilp nostúnach oslaith b'oir réithnigh speictrean sciúlaithe stungáiniseacuadóir
15:00:40 <HackEgo> reotesid scon neoclimned della rukarene stermitructic lity catinacope oatasel nibrin
15:04:04 <Phantom_Hoover> that's not canadian english, that's not even zzo38 canadian english
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15:09:01 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: https://github.com/en-wl/wordlist/tree/master/scowl/r I believe.
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15:30:41 <HackEgo> jagarna frand kladen glig betiska fri regiers besträd fullhande raktadletsfunktighet
15:30:44 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -r wetsuit .
15:31:30 <int-e> (today's xkcd is disturbing me)
15:31:54 <HackEgo> socit verne stropl adsupplichristi moor caldenicotejno cresso han wethumbonalove nicknownship
15:32:21 <HackEgo> frangcoin pophycoin spacoptinycoin pietcoin twearandcoin murphycoin celancoin 21scoin wikincoin befreafcoin spirancoin superfecoin plattcoin brainfinoccoin impcoin bonnonalcoin ratinockermecoin barbifcoin fancoin poorzacoin
15:34:12 <HackEgo> sorthseoti tep xant fourae coiilkmgd eur bbroon dam phistra toura
15:34:33 <FaerieFly> eur is an important word in the british english vocabulary
15:43:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: They're all related.
15:44:27 <fizzie> `coins --canadian-english-insane
15:44:33 <fizzie> `coins --canadian-english-insane 10
15:44:34 <HackEgo> carbertilycoin congcoin adminatedcoin syboscophcoin impatedcoin sworthyredcoin grypsidhologiccoin rosacravecoin tanaereasotcoin stbullagecoin
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16:51:02 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPgv5WDT6s0
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16:58:17 <oerjan> http://www.the-whiteboard.com/ is giving freefall some competition for longwindedness
16:58:34 <oerjan> except while freefall has sped up some, the whiteboard has slowed.
16:59:56 <oerjan> (funny thing, i was reminded of this just a moment _before_ loading today's comic)
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17:04:23 <oerjan> (there was, of course, plenty of action in that long day.)
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17:49:36 <shachaf> oerjan: what did i do tdnh
17:49:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought someone said something about the revert bug being fixed.
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17:52:01 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but Gregor needs to actually apply the PR
17:52:26 <shachaf> isn't it fixed even before the press release is applied
17:52:37 <oerjan> not in running HackEgo
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17:59:12 <int-e> Gregor's too busy professing.
18:01:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: we can't just fix a bug. there are procedures for this stuff. only the <insert fancy management acronym job title here> can permit modifying the status of a bug.
18:02:09 <oerjan> i guess his immediate reaction to the previous PR was just a fluke :P
18:03:07 <int-e> bah, GG, I didn't want a wallpaper...
18:03:48 <int-e> it's not even the 31st yet!
18:05:37 <int-e> okay, Sandra & Woo made up for it (I feel safer already...)
18:07:15 <int-e> gaia advances the plot but ends in a cliffhanger
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18:15:16 <fizzie> b_jonas: We must first promote to the staging branch, after which the integration engineer merges the fix to the QA branch, and only once it's tested can we even begin thinking of starting the process of promoting the change to production.
18:16:55 -!- Zarutian has joined.
18:39:31 <moony_the_lycan> how do i download files to hackego again? i wish to test something
18:39:55 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:41:49 <moony_the_lycan> `fetch https://gist.githubusercontent.com/rverton/e9d4ff65d703a9084e85fa9df083c679/raw/9b1b5053e72a58b40b28d6799cf7979c53480715/cowroot.c
18:41:54 <HackEgo> 2016-10-28 17:40:56 URL:https://gist.githubusercontent.com/rverton/e9d4ff65d703a9084e85fa9df083c679/raw/9b1b5053e72a58b40b28d6799cf7979c53480715/cowroot.c [4688/4688] -> "cowroot.c" [1]
18:41:57 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ cowroot.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
18:42:08 <HackEgo> cowroot.c: In function ‘procselfmemThread’: \ cowroot.c:98:9: warning: passing argument 2 of ‘lseek’ makes integer from pointer without a cast [enabled by default] \ In file included from cowroot.c:27:0: \ /usr/include/unistd.h:331:16: note: expected ‘__off_t’ but argument is of type ‘void *’ \ /tmp/cct6jpFP.o: In function `main': \
18:42:17 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ cowroot.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
18:42:27 <imode> so does hackego just run in a dummy container or something.
18:42:59 <HackEgo> gcc: error: unrecognized command line option ‘-pthread cowroot.c -o cowroot’ \ gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
18:43:14 <HackEgo> cowroot.c: In function ‘procselfmemThread’: \ cowroot.c:98:9: warning: passing argument 2 of ‘lseek’ makes integer from pointer without a cast [enabled by default] \ In file included from cowroot.c:27:0: \ /usr/include/unistd.h:331:16: note: expected ‘__off_t’ but argument is of type ‘void *’
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18:43:23 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
18:43:45 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
18:44:10 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.2$
18:44:24 <imode> that's actually pretty nice. so instead of having a scriptable bot, you just have an entire linux machine on the other end.
18:44:58 <imode> user-extendability too.
18:45:31 <moony_the_lycan> my hobby: futile attempts at root escalation alongside my derpiness :P
18:45:47 <imode> hey, pentesting is good. :P
18:45:59 <oerjan> imode: moreover, each command runs in its own vm
18:46:24 <imode> I wonder what the harm would be to just forego the sandboxing.
18:46:30 <imode> blank linux machine.
18:46:46 <imode> isolated from the network of course.
18:47:20 <int-e> . o O ( and with a disconnected power supply )
18:47:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:47:38 <imode> trust is a powerful thing..
18:48:49 <imode> a trusting box, I guess, is boring.
18:49:30 <imode> public-use, everybody has root. I guess one thing you'd want is for it to be snapshotted every 10 minutes or so.
18:50:10 <moony_the_lycan> imode, the hackego sandbox is snapshotted each time a command is ran, currently 700mb of snapshots if i remember correctly
18:51:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `./cowroot < (echo "rm -rf --no-preserve-root /")'
18:51:23 <oerjan> well, only if some file has changed.
18:51:57 <oerjan> moony_the_lycan: you cannot crack if you cannot remember syntax. well known fact.
18:52:27 <moony_the_lycan> imode, hackego's sandbox is opensource btw, and it was written by hackego's creator, Gregor, as well
18:52:40 <imode> umlbox as it's been mentioned.
19:12:07 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/meta_bg_resize': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/batched_discard': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/lazy_itable_init': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/cgroup': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/bus/cpu/devices/cpu0': Permission
19:12:29 <oerjan> moony_the_lycan: oh, it was just in a long locking computation
19:12:36 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:12:37 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:12:51 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
19:12:57 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:12:58 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove directory: `.'
19:13:00 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/tmp': Permission denied
19:13:05 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:13:31 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=658764 \ DirtyCow root privilege escalation \ Backing up /usr/bin/passwd to /tmp/bak \ Size of binary: 51096 \ Racing, this may take a while.. \ /usr/bin/passwd overwritten \ Popping root shell. \ Don't forget to restore /tmp/bak \ thread stopped
19:13:59 <oerjan> gah i cannot load the repo browser
19:14:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:15:19 <HackEgo> Initial import. \ <ellioẗt> addquote <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading \ <Gregör> pastelogs treederwright \ <oerjän> pastelogs taneb.*d
19:15:31 <HackEgo> <moony_the_lycän> ` gcc -pthread cowroot.c -o cowroot \ <moony_the_lycän> fetch https://gist.githubusercontent.com/rverton/e9d4ff65d703a9084e85fa9df083c679/raw/9b1b5053e72a58b40b28d6799cf7979c53480715/cowroot.c \ <oerjän> forget temperature \ <oerjän> slwd oxford//s/T/Oxford is t/ \ <hppavilion[1̈]> learn Temperature is measured in term
19:15:46 <oerjan> nothing registered after your compilation
19:16:02 <oerjan> `learn Testing is always appropriate.
19:16:05 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Testing is always appropriate.
19:16:09 <HackEgo> Testing is always appropriate.
19:16:09 <HackEgo> <oerjän> learn Testing is always appropriate. \ <moony_the_lycän> ` gcc -pthread cowroot.c -o cowroot \ <moony_the_lycän> fetch https://gist.githubusercontent.com/rverton/e9d4ff65d703a9084e85fa9df083c679/raw/9b1b5053e72a58b40b28d6799cf7979c53480715/cowroot.c \ <oerjän> forget temperature \ <oerjän> slwd oxford//s/T/Oxford is t/ \ <hppa
19:16:59 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....;@.....@.......À..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø................. ...8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....Ì......Ì........ ............¸......¸`.....¸`.....ð......p........ ...........Ð......Ð`.....Ð`........................ ..
19:19:13 <HackEgo> passwd: Cannot determine your user name.
19:19:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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19:20:36 <moony_the_lycan> zzo38, i MAY have done a thing hackego's systems dont like :p
19:20:52 <zzo38> What thing is that?
19:21:34 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.2$
19:22:00 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf \ DirtyCow root privilege escalation \ Backing up /usr/bin/passwd to /tmp/bak \ Size of binary: 51096 \ R
19:22:23 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:22:47 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000 \ DirtyCow root privilege escalation \ Backing up /usr/bin/passwd to /tmp/bak \ Size of binary: 51096 \ Racing, this may take a while.. \ /usr/bin/passwd overwritten \ Popping root shell. \ Don't forget to restore /tmp/bak \ thread stopped
19:27:09 -!- Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
19:29:02 <moony_the_lycan> `fetch https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dirtycow/dirtycow.github.io/master/dirtyc0w.c
19:29:04 <HackEgo> 2016-10-28 18:28:07 URL:https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dirtycow/dirtycow.github.io/master/dirtyc0w.c [2826/2826] -> "dirtyc0w.c" [1]
19:29:31 <HackEgo> gcc: error: unrecognized command line option ‘-ptrace’
19:30:25 <HackEgo> -r-----r-- 1 5000 0 15 Oct 28 18:29 foo
19:31:11 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/mem: Permission denied
19:32:06 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ dirtyc0w \ dirtyc0w.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:32:29 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ dirtyc0w \ dirtyc0w.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
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19:32:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:32:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:33:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:33:27 <ais523> moony_the_lycan: you're screwing up the syntax
19:33:47 <ais523> a lone ` would execute the command whose name is the null string
19:33:52 <ais523> which is not a valid filename on most OSes
19:33:59 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: : No such file or directory
19:34:10 <ais523> although that's an interesting error message to get in that situation
19:34:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:34:21 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /dev/sda1: Read-only file system
19:35:04 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ dirtyc0w \ dirtyc0w.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:35:27 -!- otherbot has changed nick to otterbot.
19:38:08 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/hackenv/.hg/.branchheads.cache-2RY4L9': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/hackenv/.hg/store/dh/node-v0_/lib/node_mod/npm/node_mod/npm-regi/node_mod/couch-lo/package.json.aa673ea164dbf2e331c8c0d43ba31c9c6e4305a9.i': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/hackenv/.hg/store/dh/node-v0_/lib/node_mod/npm/node_mod/npm-r
19:39:03 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cowroot \ cowroot.c \ dirtyc0w \ dirtyc0w.c \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ foo \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ tmflry \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
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19:59:57 <HackEgo> <moony_the_lycän> ` echo "this is a test" > foo; chmod 404 foo \ <moony_the_lycän> ` gcc -pthread dirtyc0w.c -o dirtyc0w \ <moony_the_lycän> fetch https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dirtycow/dirtycow.github.io/master/dirtyc0w.c \ <oerjän> learn Testing is always appropriate. \ <moony_the_lycän> ` gcc -pthread cowroot.c -o cowroot \ <moo
20:10:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:10:39 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
20:12:10 <HackEgo> cowroot cowroot.c dirtyc0w dirtyc0w.c foo wisdom/testing
20:13:58 <HackEgo> shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
20:14:31 <shachaf> do you remember the good old days before before/now/lastfiles/culprits/*o*g/le//rn/tmp/mkx/sled/sedlast/spam
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20:15:16 <shachaf> wait, even *o*g doesn't cover it anymore, with doat etc.
20:15:37 <HackEgo> 2016-10-27 <oerjän> le/rn hoag/`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists in reverse. \ 2016-10-27 <oerjän> le/rn hoag/`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds da
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20:30:01 <HackEgo> bin/doag \ bin/doat \ bin/dowg \ bin/dowt \ bin/good \ bin/hoag \ bin/hoat \ bin/howg \ bin/howt \ bin/pong \ bin/roll \ bin/rot0 \ bin/word
20:30:07 <shachaf> oerjan: that doesn't cover hog, anyway
20:30:57 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....¤@.....@.......b..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....ø.......ø................. ...8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@.....W......W........ ............à]......à]`.....à]`.....°......`........ ...........ø]......ø]`.....ø]`.....à.......à.............. ..
20:31:16 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Oct 28 18:37 bin/rot0 -> /bin/echo
20:32:17 <shachaf> can you stop catting binary files in the channel twh
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20:50:29 <wob_jonas> I have a stupid question about computers history.
20:52:27 <myname> i have a useless answer
20:53:30 <olsner> history is the past, why would you have a question about it?
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20:54:47 <myname> why would you ask meta questions?
20:55:35 <wob_jonas> You know how some older computers had keyboards where most of the ascii punctuation was bit-paired like god intended, namely the digit-punctuation pairs ;* :+ -= are on the same keys accessed with shift, and the lowercase-uppercase pairs `@ ~^ are on the same keys acessed with shift.
20:55:50 <olsner> myname: is that a rhetorical question? is this?
20:56:06 <zzo38> Yes, Famicom keyboard does that (although Famicom keyboard has no lowercase)
20:56:40 <wob_jonas> But on today's computers, the US english layout is very well spread, where 2@ 6^ 7& ;: += `~ etc are paired.
20:57:28 <myname> because typing for humans is more important than bitpaired keys?
20:57:31 <wob_jonas> My question is, did this current US English layout got so much spread it's now universal when the IBM PC got real popular (most of it has this layout in its ROM) and everyone started cloning it, or was it already universal before that?
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21:01:05 <myname> ijd guess bitpairing only was done because it was cheap and easy
21:01:58 <wob_jonas> myname: well sure, but it's also the way keyboards should work. except for the space bar, because shift-space emitting space is very useful.
21:02:28 <myname> why "should" it work like this?
21:02:41 <wob_jonas> But even if you're not bitpairing, I'd like to understand how this particular layout spread so much.
21:02:51 <wob_jonas> There are a lots of other possible bit-pairing layouts.
21:03:07 <wob_jonas> Like, who the heck put the ampersand on the number 7 instead of 6?
21:03:26 <wob_jonas> There are a lot of other possible non-bit-pairing layouts.
21:05:57 * oerjan has ampersand on the number 6 key, anyway
21:06:48 <ais523> oerjan: what layout is that?
21:07:03 <ais523> somehow I should have guessed that
21:07:21 <ais523> is it missing any keys that are on a US keyboard? or does it use a different arrangement, e.g. putting many of them on altgr?
21:07:32 <ais523> err, I should say missing any characters
21:07:37 <ais523> obviously it's missing a 7& key :-P
21:07:51 <wob_jonas> the UK keyboard also has a really strange arrangement. it uses the 102 key base, and has two extra characters, but also pairs "@ iirc
21:07:51 <oerjan> lots on altgr, e.g. {[]}
21:08:08 <wob_jonas> but at least it pairs ~^ properly I think
21:08:18 <wob_jonas> the Hungarian layout is of course completely messed up
21:08:32 <zzo38> I did make also the plan for a new computer design which also uses bitpairing keyboard
21:08:57 * oerjan has ~ and ^ on the same key, although the first uses altgr. also they're both dead keys.
21:09:16 <wob_jonas> zzo38: have I told you yet to look at John Savard's homepage at http://www.quadibloc.com/ ?
21:09:30 * oerjan has no idea what this bitpairing is about, anyway
21:10:35 <wob_jonas> zzo38: he's the kind of person who tries to designs entire instruction sets and keyboard layout and other computer stuff, but also collected a lot of historical information about computers
21:10:46 <ais523> oerjan: an "ideal" ASCII keyboard would implement shift as xor-32, ctrl as xor-64, alt as xor-128
21:10:51 <wob_jonas> and collected a lot of historical information about non-computer stuff too
21:11:19 <ais523> that matches up with a decent proportion of the keycaps on most keyboards, but there are several that violate the rule
21:11:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: well, I like how shift-space results in space
21:11:42 <ais523> yes, there are reasons to deviate from ASCII in practice
21:11:55 <ais523> also most keyboards have more than 35 keys, which is all they'd theoretically need with those constraints
21:13:11 <wob_jonas> also, if you did that, then you'd need to press control-shift to type digits
21:14:09 <ais523> assuming you have lowercase letters
21:14:23 <oerjan> > chr $ 48 `xor` 32 `xor` 64
21:14:37 <pikhq> wob_jonas: The IBM PC's keyboard layout wasn't original to it. It was used by the Selectric typewriter, and that became standard for electric typewriters.
21:14:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh right, you have lowercase letters, so control types digits, and control-shift types control codes
21:14:43 <ais523> ctrl-lowercase-p would be 0
21:14:51 <pikhq> So, by the time the IBM PC came around it was already an established de facto standard.
21:14:53 <ais523> ctrl-uppercase-p (i.e. ctrl-shift-p) would be ^P
21:14:54 <wob_jonas> pikhq: definitely not original, I just want to know what spread it
21:15:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that makes more sense
21:16:39 <oerjan> ais523: i think you're missing something
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22:08:49 <lynn> 08:54 <imode> anybody know a good, reliable place for static site hosting.
22:09:39 <wob_jonas> lynn: say the data in this channel, link to the logs?
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01:11:34 <HackEgo> something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom//It is now.
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01:24:12 <boily> jeffl35: jelloffl35. debugging your bot?
01:25:40 <jeffl35> also where did jelloffl35 come from
01:26:14 <HackEgo> Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some thé or caffè and a fternooner.
01:28:24 <HackEgo> hello hello hello, what's all this then?
01:28:56 <boily> moony_the_hellycan.
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01:40:06 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
01:41:30 <boily> `learn A pastry is a sugary confectionery that is customarily eaten after writing an essay.
01:41:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'pastry': A pastry is a sugary confectionery that is customarily eaten after writing an essay.
01:51:20 <Zarutian> `le/rn essay/To essay is to try, and while doing that showing your work in writing.
01:51:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'essay': To essay is to try, and while doing that showing your work in writing.
01:54:51 * Zarutian is fucking hunted by the local election, cant even read a bbc news article without an reference to it in a sidebar
01:55:26 <izalove> unless you're already in australia, in which case you're fucked
01:56:50 <Zarutian> funnily enough I am nearly on the antipode of australia on the globe
01:57:25 <izalove> then that's a perfect solution
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02:05:04 <boily> Zarutian: you should ublock. ads are evil.
02:06:12 <Zarutian> boily: that is the thing, it is not even an ad, it is an reference to an article on the bbc news site
02:07:23 <zzo38> Now my GURPS calculation program can calculate costs of alternative attacks too
02:07:51 <zzo38> If there are any other special cases that I have not yet considered, I hope I will add them
02:08:03 * Zarutian uses adblocking heavily. If he could he would install an ad nuker, which does not only block the ads from loading but votes the adsevers as target for ddos.
02:09:29 <izalove> that's gonna need some serious computing power
02:12:02 <FaerieFly> <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry. ← I see what you did with the quote marks
02:12:24 <FaerieFly> I'm tempted to change it to »ftermiddag» since »foo» is the second preferred (and also standard) quoting format
02:12:49 <ais523> how do you nest quotes with that syntax?
02:16:13 <Zarutian> talking about ddos. Funny how it was used as an excuse last or the one before last x-mas by Sony and Microsoft when they didnt bother to provision their gaming service networks for the expected influx of new console owners.
02:18:11 <pikhq> So many quote mark styles.
02:18:22 <pikhq> Dammit, ain't ASCII good enough for ya?
02:18:44 <boily> FærielloFly. the quote patterns were chosen with artisanal handscraftmanship hth
02:18:51 <pikhq> Well, okay, I'll admit that doing the quotes “properly” looks nicer.
02:18:57 <boily> pikhelloq. ASCII is boring.
02:19:13 <Zarutian> «No» „You cant even „nest“ the quoes with only " or ' you know“
02:19:54 * boily is trying to find at least one understandable and reliable source on how to play koi-koi...
02:20:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: just: not found
02:20:10 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sso4vjERgdA
02:20:23 <pikhq> Huh, there’s no real codepoint for an apostrophe in Unicode distinct from a quotation mark.
02:21:23 <pikhq> There's the typewriter single-quote-apostrophe, and single quote marks.
02:21:42 * boily thwacks \oren\ with a whistling mapole
02:22:18 <\oren\> izalove: because I can'tstop watching renge-chon meme videos
02:22:34 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKVCJhFXFwU
02:23:08 <Zarutian> boily: you got ma-pole, shurly you got pa-pole too, no?
02:23:10 <\oren\> ^ that one is my favorite of them so far
02:23:42 <boily> well, it has that one Céline song...
02:24:19 <boily> if you like the recorder that much, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCUMFkfOPnU
02:24:20 <\oren\> Celine Dion is the best Dion
02:24:31 <izalove> how many other dions are there?
02:24:49 <boily> there's her mom, a Famous Local Cook.
02:25:03 <boily> (she's known as Maman Dion, obviously.)
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02:26:17 <\oren\> and theres stephane dion
02:26:29 <\oren\> former hed of the liberal party
02:26:43 <boily> the Charismatic Stéphane Dion, you mean.
02:28:40 <Zarutian> izalove: well there is Mustar Dion.
02:29:06 <izalove> this feels like some kind of joke but i don't get the reference
02:31:57 * boily condimently thwacks Zarutian. 0.19 Sh.
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03:26:01 <izalove> `` printf '/* foo */ "bar /* baz */ bat" \n /* \n foo \n bar */ baz\n' | sed ':a;$!{N;ba};s#//[^\n]*\n\|/\*\([^*]\|\*\**[^*/]\|\n\)*\*/\|\("\([^"\\]\|\\.\)*"\|.\)#\2#g'
03:26:02 <HackEgo> "bar /* baz */ bat" \ baz
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03:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> I just got to use http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=195 for practical reasons :D
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04:20:08 <zzo38> You can make nest with ' and " which sometimes will be done with "('("('x')")')" for example, and also is how they do it with INTERCAL too.
04:20:45 <ais523> zzo38: I used matching alternating ' and " in Shove
04:20:46 <zzo38> (Although, with INTERCAL you can also use exclamation mark as a substitute for '. too)
04:20:59 <ais523> in INTERCAL the alternation normally isn't needed, except in some corner cases involving array subscripts
04:21:05 <ais523> however most programmers do it anyway because it makes things easier to read
04:21:24 <zzo38> Yes, sometimes it isn't ambiguous, anyways
04:22:07 <zzo38> But it is seen sometimes in a text they do that alternation, whether or not they use different quotation mark for beginning and end of the quotation.
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04:38:06 <hppavilion[1]> Has there ever been a browser with tree-based tab structure?
04:38:34 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: there are browser extensions for that
04:38:59 <hppavilion[1]> Rather than [a] the primitive scalar tab [b] list tabs and [c] the former (and, with extension, current) firefox system of 2D array tabs?
04:39:37 <ais523> I vaguely remember one called TreeStyleTabs
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04:42:53 <hppavilion[1]> I've periodically wanted to learn FireFox extension dev in general for a while now
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04:44:57 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, it'd be nice if there was a way to check for similar nicks between channels...
04:45:23 <hppavilion[1]> (identical on the same server, similar on different servers)
04:45:51 <zzo38> For the same server, there is WHOIS and NAMES
04:47:34 <zzo38> (If you have the +i mode set on yourself then others normally can't see what channel you are on except channel they are also on)
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05:10:15 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, can we talk about the invention of LISP as the data-code merger? >:)
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05:13:42 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, maybe there should be language flags that are (generally) distinct from national flags
05:16:15 <zzo38> Usually the flag of the country is used but sometimes they can speak the same language in many country or even many language in one country too
05:16:20 <hppavilion[1]> (Because some sites use flags- rather than names- to indicate language, which leads to the issue of whether e.g. you reference English with the American Flag, Union Jack, English Flag, or something else)
05:16:25 <zzo38> Therefore, maybe it helps a bit
05:18:00 <hppavilion[1]> Though, I think I've seen english without a UK-US distinction represented as an american flag AND union jack merged by a(n implicit) diagonal split from the inner-lower corner to the outer-upper corner.
05:18:46 <hppavilion[1]> By the way, the UK, why the hell did you make your flag have a right side up, but LOOK like it should be perfectly symmetrical
05:33:07 <hppavilion[1]> Reading http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=195, I'm getting suspicious
05:33:18 <hppavilion[1]> Because Finnish is entirely unrelated, but cat is still "kissa"
05:33:50 <hppavilion[1]> Spanish calls a cat "gato", but "g" is nearly identical to "k"
05:43:10 <hppavilion[1]> Google made a new beta layout for YouTube that fits with their über-sleek, technical layout used on other sites
05:52:40 <zzo38> British and American are not the only kind of English language anyways; the other way is Canadian
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06:47:07 <\oren\> Obviously for english you should use the flag of england
06:47:41 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: cat in japanese is neko
06:47:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Nobody even knows the Flag of England outside the UK
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06:48:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a Python program to handle metric-like systems
06:48:59 <\oren\> the flag of the uk could indicate it is using some british language, e.g. scots, english or welsh but not which one
06:51:47 <\oren\> the flag of canada could indicate that the page est bilingue en francais et anglais
06:52:27 <hppavilion[1]> ...I'm just going to pretend like μ is a 'u' and be done with it
06:52:30 <alercah> ou, like you observed, qu'il change langue mid-sentence
06:52:57 <Hoolootwo> or you could use a 'murican flag because we only speak one language :P
06:53:00 <hppavilion[1]> I've always been confused as to why we have to have one untypable, hard-for-older-software greek letter mixed in with all the otehrs
06:53:07 <\oren\> alercah: yes, because we do that with our anthem
06:53:24 <hppavilion[1]> Hoolootwo: You definitely can't use Australia because they only pretend to speak english
06:53:40 <tswett> What alercah said reminds me of a famous one of my Facebook status updates.
06:53:50 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: most old charsets actually have a mu in them
06:53:51 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: There are 3 versions; one in english, one in french, and one bilingual
06:54:00 <alercah> although if I'm thinking about it
06:54:07 <alercah> I sing it in such a way as to avoid religious references
06:54:40 <tswett> It said: "Mi lengua favorita es español con random palabras inglesas embedded in it."
06:56:55 <\oren\> alercah: the official bilingual version is done in such a way that it has both the "il sait porter la croix" and "god keep our land, glorious and free" in it
06:58:42 <alercah> \oren\: the "official" version isn't official though
06:58:51 <alercah> the English and French versions are in statute
07:00:57 <\oren\> when I was in chior we did a version with all the stanzas of the english and french versions
07:01:15 <\oren\> the final stanza of the french version is Le cri vainqueur : "Pour le Christ et le roi!"
07:01:21 <zzo38> Some people outside of UK know about flag of England, but it is an older flag and not used as much
07:01:55 <\oren\> which amusingly sounds like swearing in quebecuios
07:03:02 <\oren\> Amour sacré du trône et de l'autel, Remplis nos cœurs de ton souffle immortel!
07:03:27 <\oren\> that whole part is like that
07:03:30 <hppavilion[1]> It's been proposed that the 10**27, 10**30, and 10**33 be X, W, and V, respectively
07:03:46 <hppavilion[1]> And presumably 10**-27, 10**-30, and 10**-33 be x, w, and v, respectively
07:04:26 <hppavilion[1]> 10**24 is Y and 10**21 is Z, while 10**-24 is y and 10**-21 is z
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07:04:48 <hppavilion[1]> So for my metric-handling program, I'm accepting that proposal because it's nice
07:05:14 <hppavilion[1]> But I need to decide what to call the 10**30, 10**33, 10**-30, and 10**-33 prefixes
07:05:32 <hppavilion[1]> (x and X are respectively heavo and Hella, of course)
07:30:37 <pikhq> Ω isn't that hard to type, now is it?
07:33:05 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: It's not on my keyboard, it isn't in ASCII, and my computer will yell at me over it
07:35:33 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe it only complains for the obscure parts of unicode
07:35:44 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Even worse, though, is kilograms because they require *logical* shenanigans
07:36:09 <hppavilion[1]> Because unlike EVERY other unit, they're 1000x everything else
07:37:10 * pikhq messes around with using combining chars to produce a bizarro exact encoding of kana in romaji
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07:38:22 <pikhq> "ṡiȳuuneñ" looks perfectly reasonable, no? :P
07:39:52 <hppavilion[1]> I don't even know if I should be telling it to divide the prefixes for Newtons by 1000 to account
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08:24:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants/Ordered]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50059&oldid=50037 * Rdebath * (+113) Add description of crunchfuck dataset.
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08:46:18 <fizzie> Tonsil A says otherwise.
08:46:35 <fizzie> And that's the canonical source of character names hth
08:46:53 <fizzie> No, that's the wow *signal*, not the wow *character*.
08:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: I'm using 'bang' for '!', 'curve' for '?', '.' is 'stop', ',' is 'pause', ''' is 'tick', '"' is 'ears', ':' is 'punch', ';' is 'stunt', '(' is 'start', ')' is 'end', 'w' is 'way', '0' is 'null', '7' is 'sev
08:49:04 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: According to the system my sister and I are using to get some viginered text from a book into the decryption program
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10:23:01 <int-e> that wiki page is very questionable...
10:25:48 <int-e> oh, I'm reading it wrong. the columns are always number, code, length, cells, cycles, but they are selected and ordered differently.
10:26:53 <int-e> (but still, what is the use of having the fastest code for constant 34 that does not exceed 19 instructions?)
10:38:59 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: What I'm wondering about is the choice of 19
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10:47:00 <izalove> i have 33 followers on github
10:47:07 <izalove> that's like, a horde of followers
10:47:12 <izalove> i don't even know 33 people irl
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10:49:07 <shachaf> there aren't even 33 people in the world
10:49:23 <int-e> right, 90% of those are bots
10:49:34 <int-e> it's the ONLY explanation.
10:50:12 <int-e> so apparently german lawmakers are considering to outlaw adblockers :-/
10:51:26 <int-e> nothing in english yet, I believe... https://netzpolitik.org/2016/moegliches-ad-blocker-verbot-verbraucherperspektive-fuer-bundesregierung-nicht-so-wichtig/
10:52:01 <int-e> (also it's still early in the lawmaking process... but it's still scary that they even consider this)
10:53:20 <myname> well, i really don't care
10:53:32 <myname> i'd still just use an adblocker
10:54:04 <int-e> well, sure, but I'd rather do that legally.
10:54:34 <myname> it's apretty crappy idea considering you have basically no way to enforce that
10:55:24 <int-e> oh, but you can still levy fines, and more importantly, go after people who make adblockers
10:56:19 <int-e> anyway, I don't think this is going to make it into law at this point... but the idea has somewhat spoiled this Saturday morning for me.
10:57:06 <int-e> (also the process... they have, so far, talked to media and ad companies... no consumer representatives at all)
10:57:09 <myname> int-e: how will you go after nongerman adblocker developers?
10:57:39 <myname> hppavilion[1]: said the american
10:57:51 <hppavilion[1]> https://medium.com/@nattsuhon/will-germany-ban-adblocking-software-a2dcc040aa75
10:58:17 <oerjan> why would you read news if you don't want your day spoiled, that makes no sense hth
10:58:24 <myname> newspapers are just stupid
10:58:41 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: At first I wasn't going to click because it's in german, but then I realized it's in german so now I have to click it
10:58:54 <int-e> myname: when has lack of enforcibility ever stopped poltiticians from making a law?
10:59:50 <int-e> myname: and if they see that it can't be enforced they will stack more laws on top... and more and more people may become afraid of using adblockers that way. scare tactics, mostly.
11:00:01 <myname> just let every newspaper die and the world will be a better place
11:00:32 <myname> int-e: good thing i am a computer scientist
11:00:57 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Are you still technically breaking the (proposed) law if you engineer your own adblocker?
11:01:38 <myname> hppavilion[1]: aince there is no actual wording for the proposal, nobody can tell
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11:01:54 <int-e> oh no the villain has been talking to me
11:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What about https://www.rlp.de/fileadmin/rlp-stk/pdf-Dateien/Medienpolitik/2016-06-01_-01-_Bericht_BLKM_pol_Steuerungsgruppe_FINAL_bf.pdf#page=20&zoom=auto,-178,562
11:02:55 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: the 19 is probably just a bound that makes enumerating all brainfuck programs up that length feasible (excluding useless patterns like +- -+ <> and ><)
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11:19:23 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, huh, google translate is pretty good with German and English. I was doing it word-by-word to try to improve my understanding (and because I figured it wouldn't return something properly intelligible), but I gave up and put the whole sentence in and it worked.
11:20:07 <oerjan> it's like english were a german-ic language, or something.
11:20:49 <izalove> are we not gonna talk about zcash at all?
11:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Trying to ban adblockers is only 2% as annoying as people trying to "close the analog hole" though
11:21:36 <oerjan> . o O ( what's zcash )
11:22:00 <HackEgo> brookcoin badaccoin perparcoin arrowcoin fundcoin dna#coin barfoocoin rntercalcoin versecoin hevyingcoin citcoin tritelycoin cuprelncoin smalcoin bcecoin mooycoin greecoin fractcoin bradcoin comprefcoin
11:22:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's a form of currency inferior to fundcoin hth
11:22:27 <oerjan> but it's better than barfoocoin, i suspect.
11:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Fractcoin, of course, is actually several currencies, each containing several currencies in the same fashion, each containing several more again, et cetera.
11:23:58 <oerjan> smalcoin is so minimalistic they even shortened the name.
11:24:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course, everything is better than badacoin. By definition.
11:24:31 <hppavilion[1]> (Unless it's the other badacoin, which is the currency used by Teddy Roosevelt)
11:24:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: your jokes would be better if you could actually copy the names correctly hth
11:25:39 <oerjan> arrowcoin, meanwhile, gets straight to the point.
11:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> "citcoin" sounds like it could be a real thing made by a certain creditcard company
11:26:40 <oerjan> also dna#coin is a coin by microsoft that lives in your cells. sounds very trustable.
11:26:54 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, http://oldestcoins.reidgold.com/article.html
11:27:27 <hppavilion[1]> What commands are there other than `coins? I forget
11:28:19 <HackEgo> nheitloin symeloin duplengolloin callaloin soniloin smutainloin iinculoin lobeityloin msicasmiloin tmmlloin brainhardballoin verwheationloin permdriculoin crabloin calcloin qdeepensiticaestndenamerlescriboloin libeloin bractalkenloin pyrambdloin muggleloin
11:33:27 <int-e> > let b0 n | n < 0 = 0 | n == 0 = 1 | n > 0 = 4 * 3^(n-1); b1 n = if n < 0 then 0 else b1s !! n; b1s = map b1' [0..]; b1' n = sum [b0 k * b (n-k-2) | k <- [1..n-3]]; b n = if n < 0 then 0 else bs !! n; bs = map b' [0..]; b' n = b0 n + sum [b1 k * b (n-k) | k <- [1..n]] in map b [0,1,2,3,4,5,18,19] -- avoiding +- -+ >< <> ][ and [[ and programs starting with [
11:33:29 <lambdabot> [1,4,12,36,124,484,85175195836,382975574244]
11:34:59 <int-e> still quite large, admittedly
11:35:32 <int-e> but three orders of magnitude below 6^19
11:37:15 <hppavilion[1]> Oh! Trump has finally got evidence of voter fraud in this election!
11:37:28 <hppavilion[1]> Only problem is that they were frauding to vote for Trump
11:37:57 <int-e> it must be a sting operation
11:44:44 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, yesterday (or, from my up-late POV, today) was an inservice day
11:44:56 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently because they were training for an active shooter
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12:10:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dogan * New user account
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12:32:27 <oerjan> @tell ais523 it looks like we've got a couple new wiki accounts that aren't bothering to finish the introduction :/
12:34:57 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, 3-spheres (which should be called 4-spheres since they exist in 4-dimensional euclidean space, imo) can apparently be called "glomes"
12:40:28 <oerjan> fillipods are like the best aliens ever http://www.drivecomic.com/
13:06:22 <int-e> 4000 words of poetry really doesn't sound awsome
13:06:48 <int-e> 4000 words or more of poetry really doesn't sound awsome
13:07:41 <int-e> that reminds me that at some point I started reading Paradise Lost... didn't make it very far.
13:08:30 <Taneb> Poetry is different things to different people
13:13:15 <hppavilion[1]> Is aeroplane pronounced like "air plane" or like "air oh plane"
13:14:24 <oerjan> augmenting would be *+-like hth
13:21:26 <hppavilion[1]> I thought there were only, like, 3 or 4 modifier operations
13:35:39 <oerjan> * changes, *+ adds, *- subtracts hth
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13:40:43 <Taneb> I narrowly avoided failing my game theory exam
13:47:36 <Taneb> No, I genuinely only passed by two marks
13:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> Multiple-choice quizzes are just coordination games in which one party will always choose a knowable answer, it's just a matter of knowing it
13:49:58 <hppavilion[1]> The Ice Cream solution is a nice example of everyday game theory, and determines how to fairly choose ice cream
13:50:19 <izalove> is that like the cake rule?
13:50:51 <hppavilion[1]> One person prepares two bowls of ice cream, the other person chooses which they want, the preparer takes the other
13:51:54 <izalove> pie rule is the same except one cuts a pie in half
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14:00:45 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Well, yeah, it works best for something that must be taken as a whole
14:01:16 <hppavilion[1]> I was just thinking about how to better assign payoff values in game theory, and I think I just generalized numbers
14:02:24 <hppavilion[1]> This time, it's a modification of place-value notation into actual, legit math
14:09:58 <int-e> meh... let's try to compile ghc for a fifth time, shall we...
14:10:35 <izalove> let's try to fix link errors in zcash, shall we
14:11:09 <int-e> (gcc 6 is causing trouble so now using gcc 5...)
14:11:46 <int-e> izalove: ld is complaining about mixing -pie and -r
14:11:51 <int-e> izalove: there is no -Werror
14:12:33 <int-e> (and the -pie is somehow newly added by gcc, and I'm not in the mood to figure out why exactly or how to fix it properly by passing -no-pie when needed)
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14:24:01 <HackEgo> zimbabwe//olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
14:24:25 <boily> `` sed -i 's/\. i/. I/' wisdom/zimbabwe
14:26:35 <HackEgo> cnfgel//N cnfgel vf n fhtnel pbasrpgvbarel gung vf phfgbznevyl rngra nsgre jevgvat na rffnl.
14:31:16 <int-e> boily: I think you just spoke f.g.'s name in vain. ;)
14:32:02 * boily pouts and goes to make some coffee
14:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> To be clear, is "Befunge" [bi: f∧ndʒ] or [bi: f∧ŋ]?
14:44:47 <hppavilion[1]> Similarly, (> fizzie ), what is the canonical way to pronounce fungot?
14:44:47 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: ( 2. 3) is...? whoever made that quote was :)... i don't know how to play the turing game. the name erlang was to me associated with tables.
14:55:15 <lynn> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge#Etymology says /bif∧ndʒ/
14:55:45 <lynn> I say /ˈfʌŋgɔt/ for the bot though...
14:57:14 <HackEgo> xargs//xargs is for piping snowmen.
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15:00:10 <lynn> Has brainfuck been the featured language for three years? O.o
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15:07:31 <boily> fungot: n cnfgel? will you answer now?
15:07:32 <fungot> boily: there actually is /not/ a drain on productivity proportional to program size. by the way,
15:07:45 <boily> fungot: I beg to differ.
15:07:45 <fungot> boily: you can do kernels in c++ or java coders... should abuse them by making them learn a real oo language i suppose
15:07:56 <boily> fungot: that I agree with :D
15:07:56 <fungot> boily: vantaa/ helsinki border crossed again. weird.
15:07:57 <FaerieFly> lynn: I'd use those pronunciations for the language and the bot, I believe
15:09:17 <boily> fungot: of course it's weird. it's Finland.
15:09:17 <fungot> boily: there always has been to me. it does ( implicit or explicit doesn't compose well. optimistic concurrency is based on
15:09:44 <FaerieFly> I like the idea of optimistic concurrency
15:09:52 <fungot> FaerieFly: does it require something particular of the interpreter means that this channel be restricted to privileged users or something
15:10:37 <FaerieFly> I'm not sure if restricting access to privileged users is optimistic
15:11:37 <boily> fungot: check your privileges.
15:11:37 <fungot> boily: i will be a big perl guy? the one that will be
15:11:44 <boily> fungot: you can be a big perl guy.
15:11:45 <fungot> boily: srbt sarahbot? once, at startup; then i collapse it into a hilbert space. it follows the form ( lambda ( g) ( use x))
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15:29:04 <boily> fungot: Не получаю генератор.
15:29:04 <fungot> boily: the c runtime. you can increase the soft limit up to the authors. a common fnord! :)
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15:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, I never thought about it, but THE FACT THAT CAPSLOCK LOOKS LIKE YELLING is basically just synæsthesia
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16:01:07 <int-e> so hppavilion[1] is wrong, what else is new?
16:01:20 <int-e> oh, look, the sky is blue.
16:02:03 <hppavilion[1]> Did we seriously ever write 3.5 as "3-1/2" on typewriters?
16:03:49 <int-e> `learn Tauntology is the study of hurtful truths.
16:03:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'tauntology': Tauntology is the study of hurtful truths.
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17:16:22 <HackEgo> recipe//Random food recipes at https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
17:24:25 <int-e> `learn HTTP is short for 'hipster technology trading platform'.
17:24:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'http': HTTP is short for 'hipster technology trading platform'.
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18:42:11 <fizzie> The one Ynnnn problem I've not seen much talk about is the Y2262 problem.
18:42:13 <fizzie> That's the one where there's been 2^63 nanoseconds since January 1st, 1970.
18:43:55 <myname> maybe because nanoseconds now on 32 bits are no big deal?
18:49:31 <pikhq> fizzie: How many systems count nanoseconds since the Epoch, though?
18:51:25 <fizzie> pikhq: I'm sure there are a bunch. It's the default format for InfluxDB, a time-series database thingie for monitoring and the like -- that's why I thought about it.
18:52:39 <fizzie> The Go "time" package has a UnixNano() function for it, thought I think internally it uses something else.
18:53:44 <fizzie> (And it only does epoch-seconds and epoch-nanoseconds, no other epoch-units, which maybe sort of suggests there's some uses for it.)
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19:02:53 <\oren\> I might eventually run up against the ttf 0xFFFF problem
19:03:20 <\oren\> a ttf file can't have more than 65536 glyphs in it
19:05:20 <\oren\> alercah: unifont comes as a collection of ttfs
19:05:40 <\oren\> so you just hope it falls back to the others in the group...
19:05:49 <zzo38> The X fonts format also does not support more than 65536 glyphs, so using that won't help either
19:06:29 <fizzie> Android .dex files don't support more than 65535 methods, so that won't help either. Of course it wouldn't really help much even if it did.
19:07:09 <zzo38> I think there is font group file maybe? I think at least on Windows you can use font group file
19:08:12 <Zarutian> fizzie: what in total or just per class?
19:10:19 <fizzie> There's a thing called multidex that's supported natively in recent versions (L+?) and by the support library by older, which just splits your app into multiple .dex files.
19:13:02 <Zarutian> well use wholenums then and you dont get this issue
19:14:01 <\oren\> the other limit of TTF is the fact it uses 32 bit file offsets
19:14:29 <\oren\> so you can't really make a font much bigger than 4 GB
19:14:32 <zzo38> I have had idea of X12 though one of its features being that when loading a font you can optionally select EnableLigatures and/or EnableAntialiasing flag; if EnableLigatures is selected then you can use a font with any number of glyphs, although you are still limited to 65536 codepoints (although the file format is left unspecified and is up to the server implementation).
19:15:02 <\oren\> of course, the fact you're trying to make a 4 GB font would already call your sanity into question
19:17:13 <zzo38> Make a UTCE font; its number of codepoints (which is equal to the number of glyphs; there is no ligaturing) is less than 32K. Most (but not all) codepoints have ISO-10646 equivalents so many characters in a font can already be converted, but you must consider ambiguous cases and differing character widths!
19:21:58 <zzo38> If EnableLigatures gives the server permission to draw a text string all at once instead of as a series of individual characters, and EnableAntialiasing gives the server permission to use arbitrary colours to draw a text string, does this seems sensible to you?
19:22:47 <pikhq> \oren\: But I want to make a glyph for each UTF-32 code unit!
19:23:51 <zzo38> DVI format supports 32-bit character codes (although in order to take advantage of that you would need to also use a font format that supports 32-bit character codes).
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19:35:44 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 3810.26533825479
19:37:03 <myname> https://youtu.be/uCTTeql6V-A okay, i guess
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19:52:07 <HackEgo> olsner's desk points zimbabwards. It is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
19:54:40 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
20:01:41 <oerjan> `` cd bin; grep 'sed -i' *
20:01:45 <HackEgo> dos2unix:sed -i 's/\r//g' -- "$@" \ sedlast:files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files" \ sled:[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
20:02:28 <oerjan> `` cd bin; grep -l 'sed -i' *
20:02:41 <oerjan> `` cd le; grep -l 'sed -i' *
20:06:15 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ cmd="$1" \ shift \ f="$*" \ if [[ -z "$f" && "$cmd" == *\ * ]]; then f="${cmd#* }"; cmd="${cmd%% *}"; fi \ if [[ -z "$f" ]]; then echo try: \`f command filename; elif [[ -e "$f" ]]; then "$cmd" "$(< "$f")"; else echo no such file: "$f"; fi
20:11:11 <oerjan> `mkx bin/sed///bin/sed "$@" && if [ $* == "3" ] && [ $1 == "-i" ]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:11:29 <oerjan> `slwd testing/Testing never ends.
20:11:49 <oerjan> `slwd testing//1cTesting never ends.
20:11:51 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/sed: line 1: [: -i: unary operator expected \ wisdom/testing//Testing never ends.
20:15:44 <oerjan> `sled bin/sed//1i#!/bin/bash
20:15:46 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/sed: line 1: [: -i: unary operator expected \ bin/sed//#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [ $* == "3" ] && [ $1 == "-i" ]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:16:02 <oerjan> `slwd testing//1cTesting must go on.
20:16:04 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/sed: line 2: [: -i: unary operator expected \ wisdom/testing//Testing must go on.
20:16:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [ $* == "3" ] && [ $1 == "-i" ]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:19:44 <oerjan> `sled bin/sed//2c/bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" -a "$1" == "-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:19:46 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/sed: line 2: [: -i: unary operator expected \ bin/sed//#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" -a "$1" == "-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:20:03 <oerjan> `slwd testing//1cTesting...
20:20:04 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/sed: line 2: syntax error in conditional expression \ /hackenv/bin/sed: line 2: syntax error near `-a' \ /hackenv/bin/sed: line 2: `/bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" -a "$1" == "-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi' \ /hackenv/bin/sed: line 2: syntax error in conditional expression \ /hackenv/bin/sed: line 2: syntax error near `
20:20:43 <oerjan> `` mv bin/sed bin/sed2
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20:24:29 <HackEgo> iwc//iwc contains puns! Puns galore! Puns after puns after puns! Also science!
20:26:21 <oerjan> `sled bin/sed2//2c/bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" -a "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:26:22 <HackEgo> bin/sed2//#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" -a "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:26:27 <izalove> oerjan: -a doesn't work in [[ ]]
20:26:53 <oerjan> `sled bin/sed2//2c/bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:26:55 <HackEgo> bin/sed2//#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:27:19 <oerjan> `sed2 wisdom/testing//1cTesting more...
20:27:19 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: couldn't open file isdom/testing//1cTesting more...: No such file or directory
20:27:31 <oerjan> `` sed2 -i wisdom/testing//1cTesting more...
20:27:31 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: couldn't open file isdom/testing//1cTesting: No such file or directory
20:27:47 <oerjan> `` sed2 -i '1cTesting more...' wisdom/testing
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20:30:19 <oerjan> `sled bin/sed2//2aecho "$*; $3"
20:30:21 <HackEgo> bin/sed2//#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi \ echo "$*; $3"
20:30:33 <oerjan> `` sed2 -i '1cTesting again...' wisdom/testing
20:30:34 <HackEgo> -i 1cTesting again... wisdom/testing; wisdom/testing
20:30:47 <boily> hellørjan. testing?
20:31:09 <oerjan> `sled bin/sed2//2c/bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:31:11 <boily> myname: mynamello. iwc is the International Workers' Cooperative hth
20:31:12 <HackEgo> bin/sed2//#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi \ echo "$*; $3"
20:31:23 <oerjan> `` sed2 -i '1cTesting now...' wisdom/testing
20:31:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/testing//Testing now... \ -i 1cTesting now... wisdom/testing; wisdom/testing
20:31:42 <oerjan> `` mv bin/sed2 bin/sed
20:31:57 <oerjan> `slwd testing//cAre we ready yet?
20:31:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/testing//Are we ready yet? \ -i cAre we ready yet? wisdom/testing; wisdom/testing \ wisdom/testing//Are we ready yet? \ 1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/;
20:32:45 <HackEgo> bin/sed//#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi \ -i 3d bin/sed; bin/sed \ bin/sed//#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
20:33:01 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
20:33:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hannah]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50060&oldid=20048 * Rdebath * (+25) All dead
20:33:50 <oerjan> `sled bin/sled//s/[&][&].*/;/
20:33:52 <HackEgo> bin/sled//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" ; \ bin/sled//[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1;
20:34:53 <oerjan> `slwd testing//1cOnce more...
20:34:55 <HackEgo> wisdom/testing//Once more...
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20:36:10 <oerjan> boily: _someone_ insists on using sed -i on wisdom. i have therefore modified it to print the result like `slwd does hth
20:36:47 * oerjan whistles passive-aggressively
20:37:46 <oerjan> `sled bin/sedlast//s/; echo.*//
20:37:47 <HackEgo> bin/sedlast//files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"
20:38:10 <oerjan> `sled bin/dos2unix//s,^,/bin/,
20:38:11 <HackEgo> bin/dos2unix///bin/sed -i 's/\r//g' -- "$@"
20:39:22 <boily> oerjan: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and whom may insist on sed-iing.
20:39:29 <Taneb> I really need to start applying for postgrad stuff aaargh
20:39:52 <boily> Tanelle! are you a doctor yet?
20:40:07 <Taneb> No! That's why I need to start applying
20:40:19 <Taneb> If all goes well, in July I'll be a Master
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20:40:59 <oerjan> myname: also irregular webcomic hth
20:42:56 <oerjan> oh hm the dos2unix one was unnecessary. oh well it doesn't harm.
20:44:55 <boily> . o O ( Taneb Sifu... )
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22:10:11 <fizzie> I was setting up a monitoring thing for the wiki, and there sure is a whole bunch of attempts at making new user accounts that we never see.
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22:20:56 <pikhq> What the FUCK Chrome.
22:21:21 <pikhq> Features a web browser should not have: every new tab after about an hour of being up, is automatically a dead tab.
22:22:03 <imode> welcome to the age of web bloat.
22:22:23 <imode> where every request is a megabyte and we build apps instead of hypertext documents.
22:22:47 <imode> and in order to conserve memory, we're just going to kill your tabs.
22:22:50 <pikhq> This is pretty bad. It's basically failing to spawn a fucking process.
22:23:08 <imode> this kind of crap claimed the c2 wiki.
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22:28:41 <pikhq> int-e: As in, it creates the tab in the UI and then shows the "this tab has crashed" UI.
22:29:12 <pikhq> Which is to say... the tab is either crashing immediately, or Chrome is forgetting how to spawn a new process.
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22:29:47 <int-e> Ah. (not a chrome user)
22:31:45 <int-e> https://blog.runspired.com/2016/03/25/the-chrome-distortion-chrome-alters-our-expectations-in-highly-negative-ways/ seems relevant... "Keeping the JS payload below 750kb seems to be the key point for Android, but keeping below 500kb is more ideal."
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22:35:35 <int-e> (warning, being rhetorical) I mean, wtf does one do with that amount Javscript? http://bellard.org/jslinux/cpux86-ta.js is just 150k big... and that's an x86 emulator.
22:36:19 <int-e> ...but of course it doesn't use jquery or twitter or google or facebook api...
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22:40:10 <oerjan> . o O ( the ultimate reason to colonize the solar system: forcing internet programs to consider bandwidth again )
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22:41:43 <oerjan> or perhaps that's the ultimate reason for the fermi paradox. no one wants to leave their planet because they can't get a proper connection.
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22:58:21 <prooftechnique> If that were the case, there would be more Australian astronauts, as they'd be glad for the speed upgrade
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00:24:25 <Zarutian> https://www.piratesforiceland.party/
00:28:26 <Zarutian> note the current pie chart is prediction only based on votes counted so far.
00:33:06 * Zarutian looks for oerjan, boily and the usual suspects
00:39:36 <Zarutian> the delay though! Between the pirate party stream and the ruv broadcast
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01:00:03 <boily> butter chicken is good.
01:02:53 * Zarutian forces https://www.piratesforiceland.party/ and https://ruv.is/ upon boily
01:05:12 <boily> «Firefox ne peut établir de connexion avec le serveur à l’adresse ruv.is.»
01:07:31 <boily> it works. many acute accents. thorns and ethes...
01:08:30 <Zarutian> I direct you attention the the pie graph
01:08:57 <boily> it has letters. D is blue.
01:09:38 <boily> apparently, the fylgi is around 30%.
01:09:43 <boily> fungot: what's a fylgi?
01:09:43 <fungot> boily: it has a bunch of major intersections across town. nobody ever visits the site, seeing bugs, and writing a wrapper function around it
01:11:32 <Zarutian> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cv-WycDWEAAr0x0.jpg might be more comprehensible to you
01:26:37 <boily> which one is the P?
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01:36:35 <HackEgo> log//I think you might mean !logs
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01:51:27 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
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01:01:12 <HackEgo> treefolk//Treefolk are genericized treants for intellectual property reasons.
01:07:28 <HackEgo> intellectual property? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:09:45 <Zarutian> `le/rn intellectual propterty/Intellectual property is either the plot of land where an university campus is or otherwise a property which gives something an intellectual air or apearance.
01:09:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'intellectual propterty': Intellectual property is either the plot of land where an university campus is or otherwise a property which gives something an intellectual air or apearance.
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01:18:27 <boily> .- .-. . / -.-- --- ..- / ... ..- .-. .
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01:52:19 <HackEgo> ß//ß is not a beta. It's a "scharfes S", aka s with a scarf.
01:52:50 <HackEgo> chu space//A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
01:53:02 <HackEgo> lystrosaurus//lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
01:54:28 <hppavilion[1]> ...what's the difference between a Gryphon and a Hippogriff?
01:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, Apparently Hippogriffs aren't just a thing JK Rowling made up.
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01:56:46 <imode> a griffon is a lion and eagle. a hippogriff is a griffon and a horse.
01:56:53 <izalove> There seems to be a lot of misconceptions in the music community regarding the differences between 320kbps mp3 and FLAC format. It is true that 320kbps is technically as good as FLAC, but there are other reasons to get music in a lossless format.
01:56:55 <izalove> Hearing the difference now isn’t the reason to encode to FLAC. FLAC uses lossless compression, while MP3 is ‘lossy’. What this means is that for each year the MP3 sits on your hard drive, it will lose roughly 12kbps, assuming you have SATA – it’s about 15kbps on IDE, but only 7kbps on SCSI, due to rotational velocidensity. You don’t want to know how much worse it is on CD-ROM or other optical
01:57:00 <izalove> I started collecting MP3s in about 2001, and if I try to play any of the tracks I downloaded back then, even the stuff I grabbed at 320kbps, they just sound like crap. The bass is terrible, the midrange…well don’t get me started. Some of those albums have degraded down to 32 or even 16kbps. FLAC rips from the same period still sound great, even if they weren’t stored correctly, in a cool, dry place.
01:57:01 <izalove> Seriously, stick to FLAC, you may not be able to hear the difference now, but in a year or two, you’ll be glad you did.
01:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> imode: Though by the MLP interpretation, a gryphon can be any front-half predatory bird, back-half large cat
01:58:32 <imode> something something beastiality.
01:59:45 <hppavilion[1]> imode: I'll have you know that clop makes up only about 80% of Pony-related content
02:00:26 <izalove> and then you find out that clop is furry porn as well
02:00:29 <HackEgo> FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK \ FLAC IS BEST SQUAAK
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02:08:30 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Though, where's the boundary between furry porn and non-furry porn (not to be confused with furry non-porn and non-furry non-porn)?
02:09:50 <FreeFull> The boundary is "Does it have animalistic non-humans in it"
02:10:08 <FreeFull> So, dwarves and elves wouldn't count
02:10:09 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: OK, then there's a significant portion of clop that isn't furry
02:10:29 <izalove> FreeFull: how many penises can aliens have to be non humans?
02:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Anything humanized (not to be confused with anthro)
02:10:55 <zzo38> Any number I think (down to zero)
02:11:00 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Ah, like human girls with the pony hairstyles
02:12:28 <zzo38> MP3 isn't very good quality; there are better formats such as FLAC (as mentioned), Vorbis, and Opus.
02:13:03 <HackEgo> uwe boll//Uwe Boll is the undefined behavior of cinematography.
02:13:17 <FreeFull> Vorbis is lossy, but definitely better quality per bit than mp3
02:13:17 <ais523> I really like that one
02:13:24 <FreeFull> And Opus is newer than Vorbis and even better
02:13:26 <ais523> (that wisdom entry, I mean)
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02:28:22 <ais523> meanwhile I've been making progress on my CALESYTA entry
02:28:34 <ais523> I now have a working interpreter, working I/O for it, and a working cat program
02:28:50 <ais523> and am trying to figure out how to write a hello world that isn't terribly inefficient
02:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> The thing that psychically summons all #esotericans when rung
02:31:03 <ais523> I suspect it doesn't exist
02:31:41 <shachaf> Is there /dev/something such that reads from it will block?
02:32:34 <Zarutian> it is like the pavbell? dont ring it if you dont want to drown in dogslobber
02:34:28 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think there's one /designed/ for that purpose
02:34:38 <ais523> but there are normally plenty that work, such as /dev/stderr
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02:35:03 <ais523> (which typically reads from your terminal)
02:35:21 <shachaf> stderr isn't ideal, though.
02:37:18 <shachaf> Hmm, I want to run a process in the background that expects input on stdin.
02:37:26 <shachaf> So this doesn't really work.
02:42:21 <ais523> what about using one end of a fifo, when the other isn't attached to anything?
02:42:27 <ais523> although I think that might block on open rather than read, not sure
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02:47:54 <ais523> (I guess you could attach the other end to an unused terminal, if this is for testing purposes)
02:48:38 <ais523> or, hmm, clever idea: use two fifos, one attaches the output of tee to its input, the other attaches the copy-out of tee to the program you're testing
02:48:53 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that blocks in a straightforward sane way
02:49:08 <ais523> (well, as sane as piping a program to itself ever is)
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03:01:04 <pikhq> Use an anonymous pipe as the stdin input. That will block indefinitely.
03:01:36 <pikhq> Alternately, do the more "normal" thing, and just make stdin /dev/null. Won't *block* indefinitely, but it won't ever read from there.
03:02:34 <ais523> anonymous pipes are fairly annoying to get hold of on demand though
03:02:46 <ais523> I don't think you can do it with a typical shell, without the help of external programs
03:03:11 <pikhq> Ah, true. I was assuming you were doing this from C.
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03:06:35 <shachaf> I have a server program that reads input from stdin and gives it to clients on a port.
03:06:50 <shachaf> It exits when its input is done.
03:06:59 <shachaf> I want to run the program so the clients have something to connect to, but I don't want it to exit.
03:07:32 <ais523> are you trying to test it? do you have control over its source?
03:07:56 <ais523> if no to both, the tee-loop thing seems like the simplest way to do it from a shell
03:08:12 <shachaf> I have control over its source but I was hoping not to bother.
03:08:50 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I can pipe something like sleep n into it.
03:13:50 <ais523> now I'm wondering if there's a command that does nothing foreer
03:14:16 <ais523> GNU sleep seems to accept "sleep +inf"
03:14:42 <ais523> (it says it accepts arbitrary floats, that's an arbitrary float)
03:14:43 <pikhq> sh -c 'while true;do sleep 65536;done' should be pretty portable.
03:14:47 <shachaf> I thought yes '' might do it, but it always adds a newline.
03:14:56 <izalove> ais523: it's strtod that accepts it
03:15:19 <ais523> izalove: why would strtod parse +inf as 24 days?
03:15:35 <izalove> strace it and it'll be clear
03:15:49 <ais523> also it rejects +nan, which is something that strtod can parse
03:16:25 <shachaf> In the algbra of UNIX commands, it seems like the command that always blocks would be important.
03:16:36 <shachaf> Probably an identity to something.
03:16:38 <ais523> izalove: I agree that strace sems to interpret it as a large timespan
03:17:09 <ais523> ltrace shows the use of strtod_l
03:17:19 <ais523> which appears to be undocumented
03:18:47 <ais523> ah, hmm, apparently it's an "extended locale" version of strtod
03:21:16 <pikhq> strtod except you can pass a locale_t to it.
03:25:07 <pikhq> So basically double strtod_l(const char *n, char **end, locale_t l) { double ret; locale_t loc = uselocale(l); ret = strtod(n, end); uselocale(loc); return ret; }
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04:51:43 <izalove> idea for a startup: manpages for vegetables
04:59:11 <izalove> that would make my life so much easier
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06:04:32 <hppavilion[1]> I want a first person-omniscient book written in future tense
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06:22:51 <hppavilion[1]> Pet peeve #ω₆₊ₑ: "we can't send your body back through time, but we can send your mind"
06:23:58 <imode> so I'm trying to come up with a spec for my language without using any english, just symbols. how would you explain your language without resorting to english or any other language?
06:24:39 <izalove> isn't that why they invented bnf?
06:24:54 <imode> that describes syntax.
06:25:02 <imode> semantics are another story.
06:25:12 <izalove> isn't that why they invented words?
06:25:39 <hppavilion[1]> imode: Technically, describing it without using language is a logical impossibility.
06:25:42 <imode> we invented words because mouthing individual letters was a pain. :P
06:25:55 <imode> hppavilion[1]: I'm mostly inspired by the "smalltalk on a postcard" mentality.
06:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> imode: Any form of transmitting information counts as language
06:26:09 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GultCL-z3lc
06:26:29 <imode> the "by example" aspect of a language can be exploited but it doesn't work for mine that well.
06:35:08 <myname> provide the source code of an interpreter in befunge. no words.
06:37:23 <zzo38> To describe by mathematics.
06:37:51 <zzo38> You can use mathematical symbols and formal logic symbol to make one kind of description
06:37:59 <zzo38> But maybe even in that case can be a bit problem
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07:12:57 <HackEgo> library of #esoteric? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> imode: You might like to use... what was his name? Larry something?
07:16:47 <hppavilion[1]> imode: You might want that speech by Guy L. Steele
07:17:26 <hppavilion[1]> (famous programmer, inventor of Scheme, and surprisingly-not-a-porn-star)
07:18:13 <hppavilion[1]> imode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0
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08:08:40 <hppavilion[1]> "grωdən" is "envy", "grωtən" is greed, coveting, or desire
08:09:59 <hppavilion[1]> (certain phonemes- particularly voiced and unvoiced ones- form "phonetic groupies" that mean words that differ by swapping them out often have a relationship related to which is used- "g" for masculine words, "k" for feminine, "d" for neuter; "d" is also "animate" to "t"'s "inanimate")
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08:19:51 <izalove> am i having problems or is it freenode?
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09:38:48 <oerjan> can any vowel be the weakest element of a diphthong?
09:39:09 <oerjan> that may be the same thing
09:40:43 * oerjan attempts to semi-vowelize /a/
09:56:39 <oerjan> @tell shachaf !logs was glogbot iirc
09:58:31 <oerjan> `? intellectual property
09:58:32 <HackEgo> intellectual property? ¯\(°_o)/¯
09:58:48 <oerjan> `? intellectual propterty
09:58:49 <HackEgo> Intellectual property is either the plot of land where an university campus is or otherwise a property which gives something an intellectual air or apearance.
10:00:20 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/intellectual\ prop{t,}erty; slwd 'intellectual property//s/ an / a /;s/apear/appear/'
10:00:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/intellectual property//Intellectual property is either the plot of land where a university campus is or otherwise a property which gives something an intellectual air or appearance.
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10:05:57 <HackEgo> lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
10:06:36 <oerjan> `slwd lystrosaurus//s/l/L/
10:06:38 <HackEgo> wisdom/lystrosaurus//Lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
10:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, I just realized that XORing a message with a repeated string is basically just Viginere over binary
10:07:36 <oerjan> `` rgrep -l '^[a-z]' wisdom
10:07:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/nooga \ wisdom/metar \ wisdom/cpressey \ wisdom/lambdabot \ wisdom/shavention \ wisdom/supermarionation \ wisdom/indentity function \ wisdom/mroman_ \ wisdom/guestbot \ wisdom/burma \ wisdom/bird \ wisdom/rntz \ wisdom/oren \ wisdom/fomething \ wisdom/links \ wisdom/ehlist \ wisdom/otp \ wisdom/gaspasjo \ wisdom/impomatic \ wisdom/nlhp \ wis
10:07:56 <hppavilion[1]> I don't see how https://www.xkcd.com/145/ is a parody
10:08:09 <HackEgo> shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
10:08:21 <oerjan> `slwd shavention//s/s/S/
10:08:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/shavention//Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
10:09:04 <oerjan> `slwd indentity function//s/i/I/
10:09:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/indentity function//Indentity function is the function that measures how indented source code is.
10:09:34 <oerjan> `slwd burma//s/a/Burma: A/
10:09:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/burma//Burma: Ask Bike
10:10:23 <oerjan> `slwd fomething//s/f/F/
10:10:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/fomething//Fomething denotes the obsolescence of clinical insanity.
10:11:18 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them. hppavilion[1] uninvented them.
10:11:50 <oerjan> `slwd links//s/are/is/;s/don/doesn/;s/letter to/letter in/
10:11:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/links//links is one of the very few HTML renderers that doesn't try to store a full document tree with heavyweight objects for each node just in case javascript wants to modify it later, so it's the only engine that can render those HTMLs that are automatically converted from a PDF and put each letter in a separate element.
10:13:15 <oerjan> `slwd gaspasjo//s/g/G/
10:13:19 <HackEgo> wisdom/gaspasjo//Gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days
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10:17:03 <oerjan> fff there are still 272 wisdoms starting with lowercase :(
10:17:21 <oerjan> `` rgrep -l '^[a-z]' wisdom | shuf
10:17:22 <HackEgo> wisdom/b_jonas \ wisdom/gamemanj \ wisdom/døsthiswørk \ wisdom/bleen \ wisdom/fternooner \ wisdom/word \ wisdom/blæg \ wisdom/tdnh \ wisdom/ed \ wisdom/forty \ wisdom/minsky \ wisdom/tmyk \ wisdom/dynamic-unwind \ wisdom/olist \ wisdom/boxmodel \ wisdom/zzo38mtg.php \ wisdom/keenlist \ wisdom/u \ wisdom/megalun \ wisdom/fun fact \ wisdom/b_jonas
10:17:55 <oerjan> `slwd bleen//s/b/B/;s/$/./
10:17:57 <HackEgo> wisdom/bleen//Bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees.
10:18:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/word//Word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
10:19:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/blæg//Blaeg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient. It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors.
10:19:48 <oerjan> `slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./
10:19:50 <HackEgo> wisdom/forty//Forty means "in a fort-like manner".
10:20:43 <oerjan> too many that are supposed to be, too.
10:21:20 <lambdabot> oerjan said 24m 40s ago: !logs was glogbot iirc
10:22:02 <HackEgo> wisdom/log//I think you might mean !logs
10:23:02 <oerjan> shachaf: well we don't know that it's coming back.
10:23:11 <shachaf> oerjan: Shouldn't forty mean "fort-like"?
10:23:27 <shachaf> "in a fort-like manner" sounds more like "fortly" or "fortily"
10:23:42 <oerjan> shachaf: i dunno, i didn't make the wisdom also english is weird hth
10:23:54 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner" \ 2015-08-12 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./
10:24:53 <shachaf> I'm a bit tempted to make an explicit blacklist of commits and make hoag etc. ignore all of those.
10:25:25 <oerjan> but can that be done efficiently?
10:26:02 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe dowg etc. should show the revision number along with the date.
10:26:12 <hppavilion[1]> Survey: Who in this channel can reliably produce the [θ] and [ð] (alt; \oren\'s variant: [T] and [D]) phonemes?
10:26:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um anyone who can pronounce english?
10:27:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But being able to communicate with english text doesn't tell me whether they can pronounce english with the proper phonemes- they might only be able to type, or might have to approximate them when speaking
10:27:56 <HackEgo> Bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees.
10:28:06 <shachaf> oerjan: that's a little biased toward those cultures that pronounce english using those phonemes tdnh
10:28:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The ones that don't aren't pronouncing standard english hth
10:29:33 <oerjan> i feel like your feelings are unreliable hth
10:30:05 <HackEgo> hlnp --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
10:30:26 <shachaf> `` hlnp log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc\n}" -r "! 9070" wisdom/forty
10:30:29 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"2015-08-12 <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm2015-08-13 <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c12016-10-30 <oerjan> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./
10:30:46 <shachaf> `` hlnp log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -r "! 9070" wisdom/forty
10:30:48 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner" \ 2015-08-12 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./
10:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> It annoys me when I hear myself talk (and when people who don't know me hear me talk) because, apparently, I tend to turn initial [l]s (specifically not [ɫ]s) as [w] under certain conditions
10:31:20 <hppavilion[1]> Mostly when talking quickly and when the previous word had a terminal vowel, maybe?
10:31:23 <shachaf> `` hlnp log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -r "! 9070 & ! 9071" wisdom/forty
10:31:25 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner" \ 2015-08-12 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./
10:31:38 <oerjan> shachaf: um hlnp includes "log" hth
10:31:49 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -r "! 9070 & ! 9071" wisdom/forty
10:31:51 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner" \ 2015-08-12 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./
10:32:02 <shachaf> why is that backwards tdnh
10:32:56 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -r '! 9070 & ! 9071 & ! desc("ais523")' wisdom/forty
10:33:02 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner" \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./
10:33:12 <shachaf> oerjan: the point is that it's possible to filter hth
10:33:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: afaiu most american dialects use dark l in all positions...
10:34:21 <hppavilion[1]> That's why learning about allophones REALLY freaked me out
10:35:15 <hppavilion[1]> Because there was a nearby example that's been right on the tip of my tongue (and, in other cases, right under my nose (or sinuses)) this whole time
10:36:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But dark l in initial position would also be acceptable; it'd only be weird to use light l in syllable-terminal position
10:37:55 <hppavilion[1]> In my conlang, tyldər [tɪl.dər] is the word for the worldview or philosophical approach of "preferring brevity"
10:38:27 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -r ". & ! 9070 & ! 9071" wisdom/forty
10:38:28 <oerjan> shachaf: if the -r flag can be anywhere, you could just put that in bin/hlnp then.
10:38:58 <shachaf> this experiment is providing valuable information for others in the channel, i think
10:39:24 -!- Frooxius has joined.
10:40:53 <shachaf> anyway, i'll let oerjan take it from here hth
10:41:54 <oerjan> `sled bin/hlnp//s/$/ -r '! 9070 \& ! 9071'/
10:41:56 <HackEgo> bin/hlnp//hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/' -r '! 9070 & ! 9071'
10:42:14 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
10:42:27 <oerjan> `sled bin/hlnp//s/log/log -r '! 9070 \& ! 9071'/
10:42:30 <HackEgo> bin/hlnp//hg log -r '! 9070 & ! 9071' "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
10:43:04 <shachaf> don't just put in 9070 and 9071
10:43:05 <HackEgo> mroman̈_ ais52̈3 int-̈e oerjän
10:43:29 <shachaf> there have been a bunch of other destructive commits
10:43:45 <HackEgo> changeset: 0:e037173e0012 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 16 19:42:32 2012 +0000 \ summary: Initial import. \ \ changeset: 1:91fab2e0598f \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Feb 19 20:54:56 2012 +0000 \ summary: <ellioẗt> addquote <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we us
10:43:51 <oerjan> shachaf: you add those commit numbers to `doag first.
10:44:08 <shachaf> Also does this reverse the order of log messages?
10:44:16 <HackEgo> 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner" \ 2015-08-12 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./
10:44:33 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
10:44:45 <HackEgo> oerjän fizzïe evilips̈e int-̈e ais52̈3 mroman̈_
10:45:11 <oerjan> shachaf: that seems ... inefficient.
10:45:29 <HackEgo> changeset: 0:e037173e0012 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 16 19:42:32 2012 +0000 \ summary: Initial import. \ \ changeset: 1:91fab2e0598f \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Feb 19 20:54:56 2012 +0000 \ summary: <ellioẗt> addquote <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we us
10:46:14 <shachaf> `` hlnp -r 'grep("")' --template '{rev}\n}' wisdom/forty
10:46:29 <shachaf> `` hlnp -r 'tip:0' --template '{rev}\n' wisdom/forty
10:46:38 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 'tip:0' --template '{rev}\n' wisdom/forty
10:46:40 <HackEgo> 9532 \ 9071 \ 9070 \ 5897 \ 5895 \ 5023
10:46:48 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 'grep("")' --template '{rev}\n' wisdom/forty
10:46:50 <HackEgo> 5023 \ 5895 \ 5897 \ 9070 \ 9071 \ 9532
10:46:58 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 'tip:0 & grep("")' --template '{rev}\n' wisdom/forty
10:47:02 <HackEgo> 9532 \ 9071 \ 9070 \ 5897 \ 5895 \ 5023
10:47:22 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 'tip:0 & ! 9070 & ! 9071' --template '{rev}\n' wisdom/forty
10:47:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: I blame shachaf).
10:49:05 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 'tip:0 & ! (9070 | 9071)' --template '{rev}\n' wisdom/forty
10:49:12 <HackEgo> hlnp --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
10:49:23 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 'tip:0 & ! (9070 | 9071)' --template '{desc}\n' wisdom/forty
10:49:24 <HackEgo> <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./ \ <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"
10:49:34 <HackEgo> 2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./ \ 2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilips̈e> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2015-08-13 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"
10:49:35 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 'tip:0 & ! (9070 | 9071)' --template '{rev} {desc}\n' wisdom/forty
10:49:37 <HackEgo> 9532 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./ \ 5897 <int-̈e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 5895 <ais52̈3> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 5023 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"
10:49:58 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 'tip:0 & ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895)' --template '{rev} {desc}\n' wisdom/forty
10:49:59 <HackEgo> 9532 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./ \ 5023 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"
10:50:15 <oerjan> shachaf: isn't enough spam now
10:50:24 <oerjan> i think we have all the necessary parts
10:50:35 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, now I want to make a file with a blacklist.
10:50:44 <shachaf> And then hlnp can just read the query from that file.
10:51:11 <oerjan> shachaf: but it won't be used anywhere else so why add a file...
10:51:18 <shachaf> Maybe there's no benefit to an additional file.
10:51:40 <shachaf> i leave it in your capable hands hth
10:52:18 <shachaf> I think hg might have a way to mark commits directly.
10:52:40 <shachaf> But we probably can't use it.
10:52:48 <oerjan> fizzie probably could.
10:55:30 <HackEgo> hg log "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
10:56:37 <shachaf> `sled bin/hlnp//s/hg log/revset=tip:0 \& ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895)\nhg log -r "$revset"/
10:56:39 <HackEgo> bin/hlnp//revset=tip:0 & ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895) \ hg log -r "$revset" "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
10:57:33 <shachaf> `sled bin/hlnp//s#=#='#; s#\)#)'#
10:57:34 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 17: Unmatched ) or \)
10:57:37 <shachaf> `sled bin/hlnp//s#=#='#; s#)#)'#
10:57:39 <HackEgo> bin/hlnp//revset='tip:0 & ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895)' \ hg log -r "$revset" "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)'\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
10:57:47 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/hlnp: line 2: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/hlnp: line 3: syntax error: unexpected end of file
10:58:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
10:58:50 <shachaf> `sled bin/hlnp//s#=#='#; s#)$#)'#
10:58:52 <HackEgo> bin/hlnp//revset='tip:0 & ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895)' \ hg log -r "$revset" "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
10:58:56 <HackEgo> 2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./ \ 2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"
10:59:26 <shachaf> oerjan: please add a dowg variant that shows revision numbers twh
10:59:49 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r : --template '{rev} {desc}\n'
10:59:51 <HackEgo> 9541 <shachäf> sled bin/hlnp//s#=#=\'#; s#)$#)\'# \ 9540 <shachäf> revert \ 9539 <shachäf> sled bin/hlnp//s#=#=\'#; s#)#)\'# \ 9538 <shachäf> sled bin/hlnp//s/hg log/revset=tip:0 \\& ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895)\\nhg log -r "$revset"/ \ 9537 <oerjän> revert \ 9536 <oerjän> sled bin/hlnp//s/log/log -r \'! 9070 \\& ! 9071\'/ \ 9535 <oerj
11:00:00 <shachaf> `` hlnp --removed -r 0:tip --template '{rev} {desc}\n'
11:00:02 <HackEgo> 9541 <shachäf> sled bin/hlnp//s#=#=\'#; s#)$#)\'# \ 9540 <shachäf> revert \ 9539 <shachäf> sled bin/hlnp//s#=#=\'#; s#)#)\'# \ 9538 <shachäf> sled bin/hlnp//s/hg log/revset=tip:0 \\& ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895)\\nhg log -r "$revset"/ \ 9537 <oerjän> revert \ 9536 <oerjän> sled bin/hlnp//s/log/log -r \'! 9070 \\& ! 9071\'/ \ 9535 <oerj
11:00:06 <oerjan> is it too verbose to just put it in doag itself?
11:00:17 <HackEgo> hlnp --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
11:00:44 <oerjan> `sled bin/doag//s/date/rev}:{date/
11:00:46 <HackEgo> bin/doag//hlnp --removed --template "{rev}:{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
11:00:54 <HackEgo> 9532:2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd forty//s/f/F/;s/$/./ \ 5023:2014-10-06 <mroman̈_> learn forty means "in a fort-like manner"
11:00:59 <HackEgo> 9542:2016-10-30 <oerjän> sled bin/doag//s/date/rev}:{date/ \ 9216:2016-10-10 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/hg log/hlnp/\' bin/{doag,hog} \ 9075:2016-09-25 <fizzïe> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ 9074:2016-09-25 <jeffl3̈5> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ 8626:2016-06-27 <shachäf> mkx bin/doag//hg log --removed --template "{date|shortd
11:01:12 <HackEgo> revset='tip:0 & ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895)' \ hg log -r "$revset" "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
11:01:32 <shachaf> Hmm, putting it on two lines actually makes it more annoying to edit.
11:02:01 <shachaf> `slwd bin/hlnp//s#)'$# | 9075 | 9074&#
11:02:04 <oerjan> shachaf: you know how to use line numbers in sed, surely?
11:02:19 <shachaf> I always do filewide operations so I forget about that.
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11:02:51 <shachaf> `slwd bin/hlnp//1s#..$# | 9075 | 9074&#
11:02:55 <shachaf> `sled bin/hlnp//1s#..$# | 9075 | 9074&#
11:02:56 <HackEgo> bin/hlnp//revset='tip:0 & ! (9071 | 9070 | 5897 | 5895 | 9075 | 9074)' \ hg log -r "$revset" "$@" | sed 's/\(<[^>]*\)\([^>]>\)/\1̈\2/'
11:03:08 <HackEgo> 9542:2016-10-30 <oerjän> sled bin/doag//s/date/rev}:{date/ \ 9216:2016-10-10 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/hg log/hlnp/\' bin/{doag,hog} \ 8626:2016-06-27 <shachäf> mkx bin/doag//hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\\n" -- "$@"
11:04:53 <shachaf> All this work and nothing new to add to the shaventions list.
11:05:05 <shachaf> Oh well, I have many other shaventions that were never accounted for.
11:05:23 <oerjan> shachaf: i did change its capitalization today, at least.
11:05:39 <HackEgo> 9523:2016-10-30 <oerjän> slwd shavention//s/s/S/ \ 9281:2016-10-14 <shachäf> slwd shavention//s#/#/now/# \ 8627:2016-06-28 <shachäf> slwd shavention//s#hogue#{h,d}oag# \ 8608:2016-06-25 <shachäf> sled wisdom/shavention//s#mk#tmp/, mk# \ 8395:2016-06-07 <shachäf> sled wisdom/shavention//s/\\*list, // \ 8337:2016-06-05 <shachäf> sedlast s
11:06:27 <HackEgo> 8336:2016-06-05 <shachäf> le/rn shavention/shaventions include: before/lastfiles, culprits, hog/hogue, le//rn, *list, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1 \ 8337:2016-06-05 <shachäf> sedlast s/$/. Taneb invented them./ \ 8395:2016-06-07 <shachäf> sled wisdom/shavention//s/\\*list, // \ 8608:2016-06-25 <shachäf> sled wisdom/shavent
11:06:39 <shachaf> I must've had a reason for keeping it lowercase.
11:06:54 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
11:07:06 <oerjan> shachaf: maybe your nick, hm
11:07:52 <HackEgo> special relativity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:08:12 <HackEgo> 3520:2013-08-28 <oerjän> rm wisdom/tanebventions \ 3507:2013-08-28 <Tanëb> learn Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go. \ 3492:2013-08-27 <oerjän> mv wisdom/tanebvention{s,} \ 3491:2013-08-27 <Tanëb> learn Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, and Go \ 1921:2013-01-31 <oerjän
11:08:19 <HackEgo> 9481:2016-10-27 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#sand#&, dragons# \ 9412:2016-10-23 <oerjän> slwd tanebvention//s/persi/sand, persi/ \ 9334:2016-10-18 <oerjän> slwd tanebvention//s/BBC/BBC, _46bit/ \ 9299:2016-10-16 <oerjän> slwd tanebvention//s/progress/progress, sanity/ \ 9258:2016-10-13 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special
11:08:51 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep relati
11:08:53 <HackEgo> 9258:2016-10-13 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special relativity#
11:10:40 <oerjan> that tanebvention is living dangerous unless _someone_ gets a bright idea.
11:11:13 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think of the kuratowski closure axioms twh
11:11:37 <oerjan> that rings a vague bell.
11:12:48 <oerjan> ah right. very neat hth
11:13:14 <shachaf> ok, now what do you think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffeology twh
11:13:31 <shachaf> looks like it uses the D-topology
11:13:39 <shachaf> no doubt named after Doorn
11:15:13 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
11:15:36 <shachaf> `slwd d-module//s# # (Doorn modules) #
11:15:38 <HackEgo> wisdom/d-module//D-modules (Doorn modules) are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
11:17:05 <oerjan> that is not properly kemed :(
11:17:23 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
11:18:14 <oerjan> we need to get \oren\ to pressure the unicode consortium to add keming modifiers twh
11:20:26 <int-e> hmm I know what it is but, there *should* be an entry for that though :P
11:21:05 <int-e> `learn Keming is a text compression scheme popular in Word processors.
11:21:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'keming': Keming is a text compression scheme popular in Word processors.
11:21:42 <shachaf> I'm not saying it's the case in this particular case, but in general, "there should be an entry" isn't sufficient motivation to make an entry.
11:21:55 <shachaf> No entry at all is better than a scow entry.
11:22:06 <shachaf> Because people are reluctat to modify others' wisdom.
11:22:12 <int-e> feel free to `revert
11:22:33 <int-e> but I thought it was decent enough an idea
11:22:46 <shachaf> I mean in general, not right now.
11:28:45 <oerjan> izalove: thanks for clearing up my FLAC/MP3 misconceptions tdh
11:29:14 <int-e> that explanation of lossy data formats was brilliant.
11:29:54 <int-e> (I liked the SCSI detail (when was the last time you saw a SCSI device?))
11:30:38 * int-e had a SCSI *scanner* at some point... now there's a crazy idea.
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11:36:55 <HackEgo> cuisine//Cuisine is the posh cousin of cooking.
11:42:41 <HackEgo> obell//The obell is what we ring each time a new strip of the o webcomic is published.
12:17:48 <oerjan> unusually, the iwc forum seems to be getting some spam.
12:19:02 <oerjan> perhaps it's just not being removed as fast as usual because dmm is on vacation.
12:30:33 <izalove> am i the only one who hates the two separate clipboards in X?
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12:31:14 <izalove> like, i've been using linux for years and i still don't even know which clipboard is primary and which one is secondary
12:34:53 <Taneb> With two clipboards you can emulate a turing machine
12:37:59 <izalove> i always wanted to emulate a turing machine with my clipboard
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13:30:28 <fizzie> My name's been mentioned, but the discussion is too long to figure out what all that was about. :/
13:32:20 <fizzie> izalove: There aren't two clipboards in X, there are three standard selections (PRIMARY, SECONDARY and CLIPBOARD).
13:32:59 <fizzie> Yes, and they're not clipboards, they're selections. (Of which one is the clipboard.)
13:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> clipboard is standard windowsy clipboard, primary is current selection for middle mouse paste, secondary is ?
13:33:44 <fizzie> Secondary is the thing nobody uses.
13:34:40 <izalove> so you do use at least clipboard and primary
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13:36:27 <fizzie> I might not be super-happy about them being distinct, but it can sometimes be useful. Because the "don't need to do anything except select" behavior of the primary is convenient, but OTOH sometimes you want something to persist even through that (e.g. when trying to select a piece of text to replace by pasting).
13:40:41 <HackEgo> united states//See America.
13:40:52 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice.
13:42:23 <fizzie> The other sometimes confusing thing with X selections is that, unless you (or your desktop environment) runs a clipboard manager, there is no place they're stored; when you request the content, the request gets passed to the app currently owning the selection.
13:42:34 <fizzie> That's why you can't always copy something, quit the program you copied from, and then paste it somewhere.
13:44:41 <boily> X is a strange beast.
13:45:07 <fizzie> If you do run a clipboard manager, then whenever someone takes the clipboard selection, the clipboard manager asks for the contents and takes it right back. But this limits the things you can paste to the formats the clipboard manager understands (sometimes only plain text); otherwise the two programs can negotiate any format they like.
13:45:49 <fizzie> And I didn't even mention cut buffers, the somewhat similar thing from X10 that also nobody uses but which still hangs around.
13:57:47 <Zarutian> the X windowing system is a bit strange but you should have read about Display(Post)Script.
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14:07:20 <HackEgo> gsora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:09:06 <Zarutian> boily: yet another rainbowrow, put up you oars a bit.
14:10:41 <boily> Zarutellon. `relcoming people is an important tradition.
14:11:50 <Zarutian> I know, just wanted to let that pun sail a bit
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14:14:04 * boily gleefully mapoles Zarutian. 0.98 Sh.
14:14:41 <Zarutian> Did you hear why the writing implements specialy store had to close even though it had over fifteen varities?
14:15:29 <Zarutian> It was because of its name and brand. (It is six letters and the last one is +)
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14:20:01 <boily> is it the infamous island of the pens joke?
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14:40:56 <Zarutian> how does one make a slightly too big wisdom entries?
14:42:56 <boily> you can use me or oerjan as an approximative upper limit.
14:56:06 <Zarutian> what is it it called when one gets like an nostalgic feeling for what should have been but was prevented to be by imbelecles?
14:59:06 <int-e> (not very specific)
15:06:52 <boily> retrograde zeerust?
15:22:31 <int-e> yeah, use soda can with paint shaker
15:22:42 <int-e> point&click adventures can be so annoying :P
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17:26:08 <HackEgo> curry's paradox//If this sentence is true, then Taneb invented Curry's paradox.
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17:49:43 <zzo38> I think the X selection mechanism is versatile.
17:51:17 <zzo38> A clipboard manager that is not automatic might help in a bit, if you have a program you activate which when started will request the selection and then own it and report the same data, and then when it loses the selection it quits.
17:52:14 <zzo38> There can be more than one selection anyways, such as PRIMARY, SECONDARY, and CLIPBOARD, and whatever other selections you want.
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18:30:35 <ais523> nowadays I think most programs only use primary and clipboard
18:30:47 <ais523> primary is copied to via selecting text, typically with the mouse, and pasted with the middle mouse button
18:30:58 <ais523> and clipboard uses specific cut/copy/paste commands
18:31:05 <ais523> thus it's a bit more durable than the primary selection
18:31:09 <zzo38> Yes, and in xterm you can also use SHIFT+INSERT to paste the primary selection.
18:34:00 <zzo38> (SHIFT+INSERT in Firefox pastes the clipboard instead though, and I want to know how to make SHIFT+INSERT to paste the primary selection instead, and have only CTRL+V paste the clipboard.)
18:34:15 <fizzie> I think we're sort of slowly repeating the entire discussion here.
18:34:24 <fizzie> If we keep going, that is.
18:35:24 <ais523> well I missed it first time
18:38:59 <pikhq> And some clipboard managers will sync them, though I don't think that's the most obvious way to do it.
18:39:26 <pikhq> IMO probably the best thing would be to sync clipboard to primary when clipboard gets set, but not the other way around.
18:39:34 <pikhq> (if you're going to do any syncing at all)
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18:41:48 <zzo38> I think you should not need any syncing like that
18:42:20 <zzo38> It can cause problems; many of the advantages of the X selection mechanism will be avoided if you do it like that either way
18:43:33 <pikhq> I also happen to think the fact there's multiple selections is a *negative* of the system, which I think is probably where we're going to have disagreements...
18:44:53 <ais523> I think two is the correct number
18:45:35 <ais523> both Microsoft Windows and X do this; Windows uses drag then drag as the input for the transient clipboard, X uses drag then middle click
18:45:52 <ais523> X's is harder to learn but much more efficient to do in practice because you can use normal gestures for changing between windows
18:46:07 <zzo38> The selections can be whatever you want. I have had idea about the MEDIA_PLAYER selection too
18:46:17 <ais523> (typically changing between windows that hide each other is hard if you're holding down the mouse button and don't want to use the keyboard; it's sometimes but not always possible via a series of hovers)
18:52:15 <fizzie> ais523: The other difference is that for the Windows one, there's no global ownership of the selection, which means you don't get the X thing where if you select something in program A, the selection in program B disappears.
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18:59:38 <pikhq> I don't think Windows has the X feature that the selection buffer actually *comes from* the process that made the selection (so if the process dies then the selection goes away), either.
19:00:04 <ais523> I have a suspicion that it's changed since though
19:00:38 <pikhq> Probably by having Windows more-or-less have a builtin clipboard manager.
19:01:17 <ais523> yes, that seems likely
19:01:46 -!- imode has joined.
19:02:25 <pikhq> It probably helps that Windows' "smart" paste stuff works via OLE, which relies on a COM registered shared object, rather than a running program.
19:03:22 <zzo38> With X selections it is also possible for the program to support multiple data formats and for other programs to command the selection to do stuff (such as delete the selected text, or with my MEDIA_PLAYER selection idea, to tell it to pause or go to the next track or whatever).
19:03:53 <pikhq> I know it is, I'm just not super familiar with how it works in X.
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19:11:24 <zzo38> I think most programs don't do such things, but it would be possible, for example a text editor might be able to report in this way what file name and line number, and another program may be able to use that to set a breakpoint in a debugger
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19:19:56 <oerjan> Gregor: please respond to fizzie's PR twh
19:20:49 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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19:32:49 <oerjan> `? united states of soviet russia
19:32:50 <HackEgo> united states of soviet russia? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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19:35:06 <oerjan> Zarutian: your wisdom additions and changes were all crap, and besides not done in public, so i have reverted them.
19:37:17 <oerjan> (the most recent bunch, that is.)
19:37:50 <oerjan> seriously, bile without humor is not appropriate for wisdom/ .
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20:13:01 <imode> so, on my quest to make a language spec using only ascii art...
20:13:24 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/GK9d this is what I've got so far.
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20:35:40 -!- boily has joined.
20:43:22 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdmzLEvtJWM
20:49:13 -!- boily has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intrapumpkin hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-spamoidal.
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21:01:11 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:03:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
21:04:22 <hppavilion[1]> I wish "dachshund" was pronounced with [x] for the ch
21:06:41 <myname> hppavilion[1]: streichholzschächtelchen
21:10:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I would guess approximately, [strɻaɪx.oɫtzʃa:x.teɫx.ɛn]
21:10:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Maybe you want something slightly different from [ɻ] though
21:11:17 <myname> also, i don't ipa very well
21:12:24 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Half of the letters are the same as german or english; [ɫ] is the dark l at the back of the mouth, [ɛ] is a short e from english (like the first sound in the word "english"), [e] is the german <e>
21:12:59 <int-e> Ist bald Schicht im Schacht?
21:14:28 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, is ‽ considered more wrong auf Deutsch than in english?
21:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> (It's probably considered almost mandatory en españole, given their love of clear punctuation)
21:16:10 <hppavilion[1]> Though I hear the younger spanish-speaking crowd is dropping ¡s and ¿s
21:16:35 <myname> hppavilion[1]: st is a sh with a t here
21:17:01 <myname> i do think it always is at the start of a word
21:17:32 <hppavilion[1]> "[...] at the start of a word" said the person talking about German
21:18:05 <hppavilion[1]> I thought you were referencing something in the middle.
21:19:26 <hppavilion[1]> ("German has really long words" is well-known in english, to the point of being considered implicit prior knowledge in humor: http://thumbpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/funny-scrabble-game-words-German1.jpg )
21:20:07 <myname> well, start of a syllable then
21:20:17 <myname> i am not sure of it being true, though
21:20:37 <myname> i can think of "lust" with st pronounced like in english
21:20:50 <hppavilion[1]> It's also a well known piece of wisdom in the US that the Inupiaq (or one of the natives here in alaska) have thousands of words for snow
21:21:17 <hppavilion[1]> Which is technically true, but only because the language has the same push-words-together feature as english; "yellowsnow" is just one word
21:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> So really, their number of words is #{root words for "snow"}*product([#g+1 | g in {mutually-exclusive adjective groups}])
21:24:04 <hppavilion[1]> (Not here that we assume adjectives are idempotent- "yellow yellow yellow snow" is no different from "yellow snow-, that adjectives don't correlate, and that they can be divided into mutually-exclusive groups where at most only one from each can be used)
21:27:28 <zzo38> Now my program to convert Farbfeld to PNG support option to control PNG encoding; tampering with these options might allow the file to compress better, or you can add extra text chunk into the PNG file.
21:28:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: actually from reading wikipedia the other month, i learned that eskimo languages don't actually have word composition, so they don't push words together hth
21:29:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Really? There are a lot of languages spoken here
21:29:16 <oerjan> however they have _heaps_ of suffixes to make up for it.
21:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> We have a large population that speaks fucking *Hmong* here. There are only 260,000 Hmong people in the entire country, and we have enough that there are dedicated translators for it who have to worry about a large number of people.
21:31:40 * hppavilion[1] doesn't have anything wrong with Hmong people, e is just expressing how diverse Anchorage is, and e believes that it's a wonderful thing; e is just making a point of *how* diverse it is
21:32:25 <oerjan> and e is certainly not being racist, nope
21:35:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...OK, to be clear, am I being racist? [please use a reasonable definition. Not "everything is racist, everything is sexist, everything is homophobic"]
21:35:15 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecYv2js3GNk
21:36:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no, i was just being ironic about your excessive disclaimer there :P
21:36:43 * hppavilion[1] has no black friends, but that's just because e goes to a school so diverse that EVERYBODY, even the white kids, forms a racial minority in local euclidean space. So eir friends are much more diverse. Probably
21:38:42 <zzo38> Currently it does not include a setting to override the colour mode, to set a palette explicitly, to set the suggested background colour, to set the date/time information, or to set the physical dimensions.
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21:41:08 <hppavilion[1]> "Hmong" is sometimes spelled "Mong". I'm trying to figure out whether to properly pronounce it [mɑ:ŋ] or [hmɑ:ŋ] (alt. [moG] or [hmoG])
21:41:09 <zzo38> Anyone who speak English is racist even if you don't want to be racist. I speak English even though I don't want to be racist but do because I am speaking English
21:47:56 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFyF6kEco_k
21:49:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: apparently, the -b is a tone mark, not a [b] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanized_Popular_Alphabet#Tones
21:52:13 <oerjan> hm seems to be [m̥], aka voiceless m.
21:54:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Unfortunately, I'll probably have some trouble imitating it without making fun of french people xD
21:54:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: just get boily to do it for you hth
21:55:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK, I'll just get boily's phone and call him at any time I need to talk about Hmong :P
21:57:26 <hppavilion[1]> "So, in the hm" <pulls out phone> (beep boop beep beep boop beep boop) (riiiiing.... riiiiing... riiing) <french cursing> "Hi boily" "*sighs* ɔ̃" "Thank you!" <click> "language, their word for..."
21:58:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do they get angry if you refer to the language spoken as "french"?
21:58:37 <oerjan> they still _call_ it french, anyway.
21:59:19 <oerjan> although i get the impression they think the french french have deteriorated the language :P
22:00:33 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Would an impartial linguist (let's say they're from Switzerland) be inclined to treat them as distinct languages?
22:01:20 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hppavellon[1]!
22:01:43 <boily> oerjan: hellørjan. québécois cursing is a little bit more complex than hmong hth
22:03:45 <boily> hppavilion[1]: awéye, t'es capable! calle-moé!
22:04:13 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: OK, then they're the same language. "French (fra)" and "French (can)" or "French (can:qc)".
22:05:37 <zzo38> What probability distribution has (x/(x+1)) as its cdf?
22:05:58 <hppavilion[1]> If the EU becomes a single country as it looks like it's aiming for, I will be sad because then we'll have 27 less countries :(
22:07:51 <oerjan> not if it happens by 26 countries leaving hth
22:09:58 <hppavilion[1]> Well, now we have to steer the channel away from Brexit
22:10:11 <lambdabot> PAMR 302153Z 00000KT 7SM -RA OVC080 03/02 A2956 RMK AO2 SLP011 P0000 T00280017
22:10:38 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
22:10:41 <lambdabot> CYUL 302200Z 28006KT 15SM OVC030 06/01 A2997 RMK SC8 SLP153 \ ENVA 302150Z 13004KT 9999 -DZ BKN026 OVC053 05/04 Q1025 RMK WIND 670FT 11003KT \ ESSB 302150Z AUTO 28003KT 9999 NCD 02/01 Q1023 \ KOAK
22:10:41 <lambdabot> 302153Z 21014KT 9SM -RA BKN032 BKN045 18/14 A2991 RMK AO2 RAB28 SLP126 T01830139 PNO $
22:11:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'weather': lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
22:11:42 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
22:11:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 302200Z 28006KT 15SM OVC030 06/01 A2997 RMK SC8 SLP153 \ ENVA 302150Z 13004KT 9999 -DZ BKN026 OVC053 05/04 Q1025 RMK WIND 670FT 11003KT \ ESSB 302150Z AUTO 28003KT 9999 NCD 02/01 Q1023 \ KOAK
22:11:45 <lambdabot> 302153Z 21014KT 9SM -RA BKN032 BKN045 18/14 A2991 RMK AO2 RAB28 SLP126 T01830139 PNO $ \ PAMR 302153Z 00000KT 7SM -RA OVC080 03/02 A2956 RMK AO2 SLP011 P0000 T00280017
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22:15:31 <Zarutian> but what is this text that lambdabot sometimes emits here?
22:15:47 <oerjan> METAR weather reports.
22:18:48 <oerjan> CYUL is either montreal or toronto, not sure. ENVA is trondheim. ESSB is somewhere in sweden, KOAK is oakland in california, PAMR is anchorage, alaska.
22:19:09 -!- otherbot has joined.
22:19:47 <oerjan> oh it's near stockholm.
22:19:51 <Zarutian> these are airport identification codes?
22:20:06 -!- The_Prospector has joined.
22:20:08 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
22:20:18 <lambdabot> CYYZ 302200Z 34010G16KT 15SM BKN024 07/02 A3009 RMK SC7 SLP196
22:20:30 <Zarutian> oh, I see. I only have seen raw weather reports from APRS sites here in Iceland
22:20:39 <oerjan> oh right, CYYZ is toronto. then the other must be montreal.
22:21:04 <oerjan> Zarutian: ICAO codes are always four letters.
22:21:20 -!- alercah has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:21:41 -!- alercah has joined.
22:21:50 <lambdabot> BIKF 302200Z 28026KT 9999 FEW018 SCT025 BKN042 04/02 Q1014
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22:22:39 <lambdabot> EGNM 302150Z VRB02KT 3500 BR BKN007 10/10 Q1029
22:22:52 <oerjan> looks like everyone except oakland is hovering slightly above 0.
22:22:59 <oerjan> except Taneb had to ruin it.
22:23:04 <lambdabot> KSEA 302153Z 34009KT 10SM OVC075 11/08 A2958 RMK AO2 RAE21 SLP022 P0000 T01060083 $
22:23:35 <Taneb> I just wanted to know the weather at an airport 40 miles away
22:23:47 <lambdabot> EGLL 302150Z 05003KT 1200 R09L/1200 R09R/P1500 BR NSC 11/10 Q1029 NOSIG
22:23:50 <Taneb> In a format I find nigh-incomprehensible
22:24:03 <fizzie> The frog says it's going to be +19 on Monday.
22:24:19 <Taneb> Monday as in tomorrow?
22:24:31 <fizzie> Just Monday, though, then it goes back to hovering just over 10.
22:24:46 <fizzie> And this was for London, I don't know about other parts.
22:25:29 <Zarutian> lambdabot feature request for an IATA to ICAO and back conversion commands
22:26:13 <lambdabot> CYVR 302200Z 29013KT 20SM FEW010 BKN096 BKN160 11/09 A2962 RMK SF1AC4AS2 PRESFR SLP032
22:27:20 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keflav%C3%ADk_International_Airport
22:28:34 <fizzie> To be fair, the Wikipedia page does have the code.
22:30:52 <fizzie> oerjan: It's based on a US service, maybe they haven't bothered because in the US most of the places with IATA codes seem to have an ICAO code of 'K' + the IATA code.
22:31:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:32:08 <ais523> ugh, why does esoprogramming have to be so hard
22:32:14 <ais523> I have a working cat in my CALESYTA language
22:32:17 <ais523> but hello world is stumping me
22:32:34 <imode> what's your language?
22:32:39 <ais523> I know how to do it in principle, but there's so much fighting with the details
22:32:50 <ais523> imode: I'm keeping it secret until the contest deadline
22:33:25 <fizzie> Aw, there's an "all isAlpha code" guard on the lambdabot function.
22:34:03 <fizzie> Because the service it's hitting should support @XY (for all stations in the US state or Canadian province XY) or ~ab (all stations in country ab).
22:34:21 <fizzie> (That's all, though; icaoIds or those two.)
22:35:56 <ais523> I don't want to give any spoilers so that people can have fun writing in this language by themselves
22:36:10 <imode> I'm still trying to specify mine in terms of ASCII diagrams.
22:36:13 <ais523> (the distribution will contain spoilers but clearly marked, so that people can avoid looking at them)
22:36:39 <ais523> at least I have a working (if inefficient) interp, plus a working syntax highlighter
22:37:08 <ais523> the syntax highlighter is necessary
22:37:34 <ais523> trailing whitespace is significant in this language and it's so easy to leave in a file by mistake :-(
22:38:50 <Taneb> I've only had one decent idea since Fueue
22:39:04 <Taneb> And that was COMPLEX which is already public
22:39:07 <ais523> well, this is an idea I've been working on for ages
22:39:17 <ais523> but CALESYTA has motivated me to do a really good job of it
22:39:34 <ais523> if it weren't for the contest I'd have released the spec already, but with no interp or example programs
22:39:40 <ais523> I have both of those now so I'm doing better than normal
22:39:46 <ais523> the problem is to write something nontrivial
22:40:50 -!- navet has joined.
22:41:18 <HackEgo> navet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:41:30 <ais523> I really like this language, though
22:41:37 <ais523> it even has a practical use (although that use is also esoteric)
22:41:49 <navet> I already love this channel
22:42:07 <ais523> the use came first, then I designed the language around it
22:43:16 <ais523> not sure how many clues I'm supposed to give until the contest comes out
22:43:32 <ais523> I guess I'm just here for moral support, because I can't give enough details for any of my questions to have real answers
22:43:43 <imode> I don't even have a name for mine yet, but I've written quite a few example programs.
22:43:43 <ais523> I'll link everyone to my new language on nov 16
22:44:08 <ais523> I have a really good name for mine, or at least it works on about four different levels
22:45:21 <ais523> porthellos are one of the worst methods of conveying information I've ever seen
22:45:29 <ais523> often you have to figure out they're porthellos from context
22:45:45 <ais523> which implies that the sentence carries an entire 0 bits of information beyond its mere existence
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22:49:00 -!- vifino- has changed nick to oniifiv.
22:50:18 <ais523> imode: it's a method of saying hello via forming a portmanteau of a word meaning hello and the person's name
22:50:32 <imode> ahahaha. I get it.
22:50:32 <ais523> for example, "hi imode" could be portmanteaued to "himode"
22:50:44 <ais523> they're popular here and I don't really understand why
22:50:48 <ais523> at least it's a fairly harmless meme
22:51:31 <shachaf> ais523: Greetings usually carry no information beyong their existence.
22:52:51 <shachaf> ais523: I think the origin is related to Look Around You.
22:53:58 <boily> monqy was the original portheller?
22:54:28 <shachaf> No, but monqy said "hi [name]"
22:55:05 * boily *THWACKS* the spammers
22:56:00 <HackEgo> boil̈y quintopïa Bik̈e FreeFul̈l oerjän FreeFul̈l ellioẗt oerjän shachäf shachäf ellioẗt nitia
22:56:29 <shachaf> Is there an easy way to detect commits that should be filtered out?
22:56:36 <shachaf> Say, if they touch a lot of files at once.
22:58:00 <boily> I guess so, but IANAHGE...
22:58:17 <boily> (I am not a mercurial expert)
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22:58:24 <HackEgo> Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some thé or caffè and a fternooner.
22:58:55 <ybden> Don't you want an = inbetween them
22:59:28 -!- alercah has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:59:35 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
23:00:05 <ybden> Whence come the term porthello?
23:00:11 <boily> `cwlprits porthello
23:00:21 -!- alercah has joined.
23:00:22 -!- alercah has quit (Client Quit).
23:00:51 -!- alercah has joined.
23:01:56 * boily pokes alercah's connection. *poke poke poke*
23:02:19 <alercah> it's not a connection problem
23:02:24 <alercah> client configuration problem :)
23:02:40 <HackEgo> <oerjän> le/rn porthello/Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some th\xc3\xa9 or caff\xc3\xa8 and a fternooner.
23:03:31 <ybden> The fusion of two oerjans into one.
23:04:26 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
23:05:03 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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23:07:46 <boily> alercah: indeed. ごめん！
23:08:34 <ybden> \xA8 is a combining char?
23:09:34 <pikhq> U+00A8 DIARESIS is not a combining character.
23:10:09 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Presumably it's meant to represent one in the wisdom?
23:10:17 <ybden> Where does the term 'porthello' originate from?
23:10:57 <fizzie> `fetch https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jpatokal/openflights/master/data/airports.dat
23:10:58 <hppavilion[1]> ybden: "porthello" is a portmanteau of "portmanteau" and "hello"
23:11:01 <HackEgo> 2016-10-30 23:10:01 URL:https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jpatokal/openflights/master/data/airports.dat [850313/850313] -> "airports.dat" [1]
23:11:04 <ybden> Oho. I guessed correctly.
23:11:06 <ybden> hppavilion[1]: thank you
23:11:07 <fizzie> `` mv airports.dat share/
23:11:15 <fizzie> `` grep '"KEF"' share/airports.dat | cut -d ',' -f 6
23:11:35 <fizzie> I'll script that up some other day, unless someone else does it first.
23:11:39 <hppavilion[1]> (in your browser, Ã̈ should be doubly diacritical)
23:11:45 <oerjan> U+00A8 is in the latin-1 part of unicode, i don't think that has any combining chars?
23:12:09 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: No, that's UTF-8 encoded. "\xc3\xa9" is "é" and "\xc3\xa8" is "è".
23:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It doesn't, but that character is DIARESIS, which presumably is meant to imply combining
23:13:17 <oerjan> yeah the hg log descriptions are sometimes escaped
23:13:34 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Anyways, U+0308 COMBINING DIARESIS is a different codepoint.
23:14:34 <pikhq> I think DIARESIS is intended to be similar to ^, in that you can "combine" it on printers by putting DEL before it.
23:14:49 <pikhq> (which is no longer done. :))
23:15:57 <alercah> `unicode LATIN LETTER E WITH ACUTE
23:16:09 <oerjan> `` grep '"KEF"' share/airports.dat
23:16:09 <HackEgo> 16,"Keflavik International Airport","Keflavik","Iceland","KEF","BIKF",63.985,-22.605556,171,0,"N","Atlantic/Reykjavik"
23:16:51 <oerjan> `mkx bin/icao grep "$1" share/airports.dat | cut -d ',' -f 6
23:16:51 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
23:16:59 <oerjan> `mkx bin/icao//grep "$1" share/airports.dat | cut -d ',' -f 6
23:17:17 <oerjan> `mkx bin/icao//grep -i "$1" share/airports.dat | cut -d ',' -f 6
23:17:25 <HackEgo> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
23:17:45 <HackEgo> "CYHU" \ "CYMX" \ "CYUL" \ \N \ "MTRL" \ \N
23:18:05 <oerjan> hm that \N looks fishy
23:18:12 <HackEgo> "KSEA" \ "KBFI" \ "KW55" \ \N \ \N \ \N \ \N \ "SEAT" \ \N \ "PSEA"
23:18:38 <oerjan> `` grep -i montreal share/airports.dat
23:18:39 <HackEgo> 71,"St Hubert","Montreal","Canada","YHU","CYHU",45.5175,-73.416944,90,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \ 93,"Montreal Intl Mirabel","Montreal","Canada","YMX","CYMX",45.681944,-74.005278,270,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \ 146,"Pierre Elliott Trudeau Intl","Montreal","Canada","YUL","CYUL",45.470556,-73.740833,118,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \ 7462,"Central Railway
23:19:16 <oerjan> `` grep -i montreal share/airports.dat | tail -n +1
23:19:17 <HackEgo> 71,"St Hubert","Montreal","Canada","YHU","CYHU",45.5175,-73.416944,90,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \ 93,"Montreal Intl Mirabel","Montreal","Canada","YMX","CYMX",45.681944,-74.005278,270,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \ 146,"Pierre Elliott Trudeau Intl","Montreal","Canada","YUL","CYUL",45.470556,-73.740833,118,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \ 7462,"Central Railway
23:19:30 <boily> CYHU is not Montréal, it's St-Hubert, and CYMX is dead.
23:19:32 <oerjan> never can remember the right tail syntax
23:20:07 <boily> I guess there's still weather over there, even if the airport is ripe for a zombie apocalypse...
23:20:20 <oerjan> `` grep -i montreal share/airports.dat | tail -n +3
23:20:21 <HackEgo> 146,"Pierre Elliott Trudeau Intl","Montreal","Canada","YUL","CYUL",45.470556,-73.740833,118,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \ 7462,"Central Railway Station","Montreal","Canada","YMY",\N,45.499722,-73.566111,0,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \ 7845,"Montreal Central Bus Station","Montreal","Canada","","MTRL",45.51527887,-73.561427593,0,-5,"A","America/Toronto" \
23:20:51 <oerjan> hm i suppose \N is "not applicable" or something
23:21:48 <boily> Montreal Central Bus Station????????
23:22:02 <boily> a bus is not an airplane, last time I checked.
23:22:31 -!- ^v has joined.
23:23:20 * imode has been working on his airbus project for years!
23:23:22 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:23:59 <fizzie> `fetch http://zem.fi/tmp/airport
23:24:03 <HackEgo> 2016-10-30 23:23:02 URL:http://zem.fi/tmp/airport [515/515] -> "airport" [1]
23:24:09 <boily> a bus is something that is late, and you're cramped with many noisy strangers, whereas an airplane is... uhm... ok, they're about the same.
23:24:16 <fizzie> `` mv airport bin/airport; chmod a+x bin/airport
23:24:22 <HackEgo> Helsinki Vantaa (HEL, EFHK)
23:24:27 <HackEgo> Keflavik International Airport (KEF, BIKF)
23:24:49 <boily> `` airport chicken
23:24:50 <HackEgo> usage: airport name|iata|icao key
23:24:52 <fizzie> oerjan: It's a little more elaborate than the grep-cut, but maybe a little more user-friendly as well.
23:25:00 <boily> `` airport name chicken
23:25:19 <lambdabot> CYUL 302300Z 30006KT 15SM BKN032 06/01 A2999 RMK SC7 SLP159
23:25:23 <lambdabot> CYMX 302300Z 00000KT 25SM OVC030 05/01 A3000 RMK SC8 SLP165
23:25:42 <fizzie> Admittedly it's only an exact-string match, unlike the grepping.
23:26:51 <\oren\> you know it's kind of a massive troll to name the airport in Montreal after trudeau
23:27:10 <\oren\> becuase that's the part of Canada that didn't like him
23:27:35 <fizzie> `` mkx bin/icao//airport icao '"$*"';
23:27:48 <fizzie> Wait, that's the wrong way around.
23:28:06 <oerjan> also, too much quoting
23:28:22 <fizzie> No, too little quoting.
23:28:30 <fizzie> Or too many `s, whichever way you look at it.
23:28:42 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/zb_z so, I introduced breaking, and showed how blocks don't continue unless broken from.
23:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm doing it by writing sentences with what I have to see if there's obvious ambiguity or things that can't be expressed
23:29:07 <hppavilion[1]> One of the possibilities is "fωxλrei vədedɛlum ocωlum"
23:29:40 <ais523> are there any languages which use IPA as their primary method of spelling
23:29:44 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm not sure what the right command interface is. I was imagining you'd do `foo X to look up *by* foo, but maybe that's less intuitive than if you're looking *for* foo.
23:29:49 <HackEgo> Montreal Central Bus Station (?, MTRL)
23:29:51 <ais523> (I'm mostly thinking natural languages here, but conlangs and esolangs would also be interesting)
23:30:01 <HackEgo> Central Railway Station (YMY, \N)
23:30:11 <\oren\> ais523: I think some of the afican languages use ipa inspired alphabets
23:30:12 <fizzie> Those don't look all that airport-like.
23:30:14 <hppavilion[1]> That sentence translates to "fear the beast with just one eye"
23:30:23 <fizzie> Also I think python's CSV reader didn't handle \N.
23:30:37 <boily> ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_Alphabet is pretty close.
23:31:08 <\oren\> well but you provided a link so it's not redundant per say
23:31:54 <hppavilion[1]> "fωxλr" means fear; the "-ei" suffix is an inflective version of the pronoun "ei" (usually suffixes are different), which is usually third-person non-specific, but in this case is generic and refers to everybody
23:32:59 <oerjan> `` airport name Central Railway Station
23:33:00 <HackEgo> usage: airport name|iata|icao key
23:33:11 <oerjan> `` airport name Central
23:33:12 <HackEgo> Grand Central (GCJ, FAGC) \ North Central State (SFZ, KSFZ) \ Central Illinois Rgnl (BMI, KBMI) \ Central Wisconsin (CWA, KCWA) \ Draughon Miller Central Texas Rgnl (TPL, KTPL) \ Central (RTW, UWSS) \ Central Nebraska Regional Airport (GRI, KGRI) \ Central Airport (CEM, PACE) \ Central Railway Station (YMY, \N) \ Ciudad Real Central Airport (CQM, L
23:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> "və" roughly means "is", "de" is a type of possessive specifically referring to ccomponentpossession- something you "own" because it's a physical part of you. "dɛlus" is beast, "um" is singular, and "ocωlus" is eye
23:33:28 <oerjan> `` airport name 'Central Railway Station'
23:33:29 <HackEgo> Central Railway Station (YMY, \N)
23:33:38 <oerjan> oh, that actually was unique
23:34:09 -!- lynn has changed nick to pumpklynn.
23:35:21 <boily> `learn lynn likes to impersonate seasonal cucurbitaceæ.
23:35:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'lynn': lynn likes to impersonate seasonal cucurbitaceæ.
23:37:44 <\oren\> http://ctrlv.in/874896
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23:44:40 <fizzie> `fetch http://zem.fi/tmp/airport
23:44:42 <HackEgo> 2016-10-30 23:43:41 URL:http://zem.fi/tmp/airport [650/650] -> "airport" [1]
23:44:45 <fizzie> `` mv airport bin/airport-lookup; mkx 'bin/airport//airport-lookup any "$*"'; mkx 'bin/icao//airport-lookup icao "$*"'; mkx 'bin/iata//airport-lookup iata "$*"'
23:44:47 <HackEgo> bin/airport \ bin/icao \ bin/iata
23:44:54 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/airport: line 1: /hackenv/bin/airport-lookup: Permission denied
23:45:03 <fizzie> `` chmod a+x bin/airport-lookup
23:45:09 <fizzie> Always forgetting one thing or another.
23:45:11 <HackEgo> Helsinki Malmi (HEM, EFHF) \ Helsinki Vantaa (HEL, EFHK) \ Helsinki Cruise Port (?, HELC)
23:45:25 <HackEgo> General Edward Lawrence Logan Intl (BOS, KBOS)
23:45:34 <fizzie> I think that's relatively sane.
23:46:17 <boily> as a sane person, I approve.
23:46:34 <HackEgo> [U+1F093 DOMINO TILE VERTICAL-06-06]
23:46:59 <fizzie> I'll wrap around if you keep doing that.
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23:48:19 <fizzie> I guess that's still quite far off.
23:49:28 <boily> karma isn't multiplicative.
23:49:40 <shachaf> ^ul ((fizzie++ )S:^):^ *MWAHAHAHAHA*
23:49:41 <fungot> fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ fizzie++ ...too much output!
23:50:16 <shachaf> (quoting oerjan 2012-12-29:19:13:33)
23:50:33 <fungot> olsner: now that i know of that knows i'm not on the list, not returned directly.
23:50:38 <fungot> shachaf: isn't omega the possibility that it could simply mean that " shit"
23:51:18 <olsner> hmm, lambdabot must have decades of state by now
23:51:51 <oerjan> there may have been some wipeouts.
23:51:56 <shachaf> lambdabot is over 30 years old hth
23:51:59 * boily applauds shachaf with a pair of mapoles for the well-timed *MWAHAHAHAHAHA*
23:52:29 <ais523> shachaf: how old is Haskell?
23:52:34 <boily> how in fungot did I manage to deserve that much karma.
23:52:34 <fungot> boily: bit wise, byte foolish. but if you thought someone might want to have
23:52:56 <boily> olsner: thanks for aligning me on 108. very buddhic.
23:53:02 <shachaf> boily: see http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-12-29#191333oerjan
23:53:12 <olsner> boily: I just thought you had too much karma
23:53:42 <shachaf> Also one time I figured out how to use @@ to make lambdabot generate a whole lot of karma internally.
23:54:25 <olsner> I guess it'll do this for about half an hour until it runs out of lines then
23:54:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
23:54:48 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +q lambdabot!*@*.
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23:54:56 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -q lambdabot!*@*.
23:54:58 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
23:55:17 <ais523> I thought a quiet would work better than a spamkick, seeing as it's a bot
23:55:30 <shachaf> I think this is a bug with one of the recent changes.
23:55:38 <shachaf> It definitely used to require @more past a few lines.
23:55:45 -!- lambdabot has joined.
23:55:52 <ais523> also, it's amusing how all the top entries are things which have ++ as part of their name
23:55:53 -!- lambdabot has left.
23:55:55 <boily> BWAH AH AH AH AH :D
23:56:09 <ais523> I assume it's shachaf who's controlling the joins and parts?
23:56:29 <shachaf> I'm not really supposed to have admin access, but it seemed like an emergency.
23:56:46 <ais523> you could have let me deal with it
23:56:54 <ais523> although we both acted at basically the same time
23:57:13 <shachaf> I also think I ought to have admin access so I don't mind using obvious bugs to get it.
23:57:27 <ais523> oh, you mean you got your admin access via hacking?
23:57:28 <shachaf> Maybe that's not a good attitude.
23:57:52 <shachaf> I wouldn't quite phrase it that way.
23:58:25 <shachaf> Do you reckon it's done yet?
23:58:30 <shachaf> I'll give it some more time.
23:59:03 <ais523> given the likely distribution of karma, it's probably going to go for a while longer
23:59:15 <ais523> we can take it in and out every now and then to see how far it's got, if you like
00:00:38 <olsner> in the log shachaf linked there were 1890 extra lines
00:01:45 <ais523> I wonder if Freenode is busy sending lambdabot "cannot send to channel" messages
00:02:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -n.
00:02:05 <olsner> that should be less work than sending it to everyone in this channel
00:02:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +n.
00:03:02 <oerjan> . o O ( does it follow zipf's law )
00:03:12 <boily> of course it follows it.
00:03:43 <boily> `` grep -FIinrs zipf wisdom/*
00:04:12 <ais523> that might have something to do with it
00:04:17 <ais523> also, that is a /lot/ of flags to grep
00:04:20 <boily> oh, it was one of my quotes.
00:04:27 <HackEgo> 1121) <boily> everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
00:04:39 <imode> unary is the only number system that matters.
00:04:48 <ais523> boily: err, isn't that missing the normal distribution?
00:05:04 <ais523> which is the most common distribution in existence, due to the central limit theorem?
00:05:21 <boily> yes, every time I stumble upon that quote I'm like: «comment ai-je pu oublier la distribution normale...»
00:05:24 <zzo38> But what is the distribution that I had given the cdf for?
00:05:33 <zzo38> I mean x/(x+1) what is that one called?
00:05:44 <oerjan> well technically that doesn't prevent it from being a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers.
00:06:07 <shachaf> int-e: you may be interested in the above mode of spam hth
00:07:14 <oerjan> zzo38: well it's df is -log(x+1), i think
00:08:01 <oerjan> wrong direction, it's -1/(x+1)^2
00:08:53 <zzo38> Yes, I figured that already
00:08:58 <zzo38> It doesn't tell me what it is called, though
00:11:25 -!- Elronnd has joined.
00:11:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50061&oldid=50028 * Elronnd * (-3)
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00:13:42 <oerjan> zzo38: it may be beta prime distribution with α, β = 1
00:14:13 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_prime_distribution
00:14:36 <oerjan> (found via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_probability_distributions#Supported_on_semi-infinite_intervals.2C_usually_.5B0.2C.E2.88.9E.29)
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00:18:11 <zzo38> Is that how incomplete beta function is working?
00:20:07 <oerjan> B(a,b) = (a-1)!(b-1)!/(a+b-1)! was listed on the page for it
00:21:19 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_function#Incomplete_beta_function but this doesn't need that.
00:22:35 <boily> Elronnd: Helloronnd. shachaf unleashed lambdie on us in a catastrophic accident.
00:25:04 <oerjan> @tell int-e lambdabot has been misbehaving hth
00:25:42 <oerjan> still works in private, at least
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00:34:24 <Elronnd> I just realized the esolang I made has 256^256^256 possible states
00:34:52 <Elronnd> maybe I should change it to 4^4^4
00:35:37 <oerjan> 1^1^1 seems like the sweet spot
00:35:38 <Elronnd> seems nice and managable, but hard to do math with
00:36:05 <Elronnd> because there's up to 256 dimensions
00:36:29 <Elronnd> & up to 256 distinct values a cell can hold
00:36:41 <Elronnd> (that's to say, it can only hold one)
00:36:57 <Elronnd> but the program specifies the size of those numbers
00:37:19 <HackEgo> An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
00:38:16 <oerjan> shachaf: is lambdabot down to 1 yet?
00:38:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
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00:39:02 <oerjan> hm are they alphabetical within each size?
00:41:07 <oerjan> however its flood protection has become buggy
00:41:34 <oerjan> and then we gave a command that dumps its entire karma database...
00:42:03 <HackEgo> Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something.
00:59:33 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
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01:03:58 <otherbot> Added 0 synonyms moo="moo",moo^3 // Time 0 // Total time 0
01:04:36 <otherbot> Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added 0 synonyms :1: syntax error, unexpected T_END_PAR line 1 col 1 at ) ")(" // Time 0 // Total time 0
01:05:44 * imode thinks he's going to specify his language in terms of term rewriting.
01:06:02 <imode> gonna be weird considering blocks are effectively infinite loops.
01:06:14 <imode> "what does an infinite loop evaluate to" is something I need to ask myself.
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01:08:33 <imode> did it just pick up where it left off?
01:09:12 <imode> so, if I have an infinite loop, [], I just say "well that's it. that's the final result."
01:09:35 <imode> if I have two infinite loops next to eachother, I only have one loop.
01:10:12 <imode> if I have an infinite loop nested in another infinite loop, I have one loop.
01:10:47 <imode> if I have [;], I yield nothing. if I have [[;]], I yield []. if I have [;][], I yield [].
01:10:49 <moonythedwarf> huh, wont e very complete without a relative jump or a break statemet
01:11:02 <imode> ; is break. ? is conditional break.
01:11:04 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn theseus/Theseus was a Greek inventor who was charged with impossible-to-detect murder. He was represented by Protagoras and found not guilty. He changed his name to escape the publicity and has continued inventing to this day.
01:11:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'theseus': Theseus was a Greek inventor who was charged with impossible-to-detect murder. He was represented by Protagoras and found not guilty. He changed his name to escape the publicity and has continued inventing to this day.
01:11:32 <imode> I already have the whole language spec'd out and can write programs in it, but I'm wanting to specify it without english.
01:11:37 <imode> so rewrite rules are reasonable.
01:12:21 <imode> the language has 32 commands, each of which are single characters. the whole command set is ?;[],`'+-*/%&|~^()<>=!@${}.:#_\"
01:12:24 <boily> imode: Ω = (S I I (S I I))
01:12:58 <imode> the language is stack based. or, if you wanna get fancier, the language is concatenative.
01:13:23 <imode> [] is equivalent to while(1){}. ; is equivalent to break;. ? is equivalent to if(stack[top] == 0) {break;}
01:13:27 <hppavilion[1]> (wisdum? wisdumite? wisdomoid? wisdoid? How about wisdus? Yeah, wisdus is good)
01:13:42 <imode> heh, I will. I have a half-baked interpreter right now but it's very trivial to translate into C or Forth to get an actual result.
01:13:55 <imode> you can write an interpreter in a day.
01:13:59 <imode> probably an hour or two.
01:14:27 <imode> in fact, one moment while I translate factorial out to C (won't compile because I'm missing a header)
01:15:42 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/HlQ1/c
01:15:57 <imode> it's a factorial function. the original code is ,:,1-[,:?,:,2#*,1#,1-].
01:16:30 <moonythedwarf> a loop based language that has a random access list of loops, the 'value' read is 1 if the loop+loop codr is running, slse zero, the commands beside loops are: ! ? and ;
01:16:51 <imode> http://pastebin.com/DejSL8dp
01:16:58 <imode> the reasonably commented version of the factorial function.
01:17:10 <boily> hppavilion[1]: it will be pdfed in the next pass. praise be the tanebventions!
01:17:52 <moonythedwarf> rhe memory holds infinite amounts, and th language is theoretically turing complete
01:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> Is `?nav part of the topic, or did I add that on my end accidentally?
01:18:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intrapumpkin hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
01:18:56 <imode> what's cool is that using these simple kinds of commands you can make things that look and behave like if-else statements.
01:19:54 <imode> [condition] [,:?. true ,~;] [~? false ;]
01:20:09 <imode> if(condition) { true } else { false }
01:20:32 <oerjan> <imode> did it just pick up where it left off? <-- no, it's just that slow hth
01:20:53 <imode> oerjan: yeah, I noticed.. kind of hilarious.
01:22:45 * boily is off to count the karmic sheep
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01:23:10 <shachaf> the itymology of intrapumpkin is interpumpkin hth
01:23:24 <shachaf> and pizza is just out of place there
01:28:21 <otherbot> You do not have permission to use this command.
01:30:34 <ais523> you misspelled it anyway :-p
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01:41:13 <pikhq> So. Gen VI is the first gen without a third game (or equivalent) in it...
01:41:31 <pikhq> Game Freak implied they were doing something weird with it that time 'round.
01:41:43 <pikhq> I wonder if that "something weird" is a game in the next gen.
01:50:31 <ais523> well, Emerald didn't follow Ruby and Sapphire chronologically
01:55:01 <ais523> I can see why gen VI doesn't have a third game, though, the first two weren't very good :-(
01:56:02 <imode> gen 6 is alpha sapphire and omega ruby.
01:56:50 <imode> I think the world forgot about X and Y.
02:00:15 <ais523> like, the only thing XY do better than the previous games is dressing up (it also does this better than future games), and the multiple regional pokédexes thing
02:00:23 <ais523> everything else is either the same or worse
02:01:41 <imode> it was just boring to me.
02:02:03 <ais523> that's because the difficulty level is too low to make the battle interesting, and its plot is badly designed too
02:02:20 <ais523> so you don't get much enjoyment from the story either
02:02:45 <imode> it wasn't the difficulty or the plot for me, it was the fact that there was just too much... walking.
02:02:59 <ais523> well you get rollerskates fairly early
02:03:08 <imode> yeah but they continually compensate for that.
02:03:09 <ais523> but you probably get the bicycle too late
02:03:23 <imode> like. after you get the rollerskates, everything just seems like it takes way too long.
02:03:46 <imode> and there's a lot of stuff that the game kinda wants you to do but you don't have to do.
02:03:50 <ais523> it's partly because the game's very linear but nonetheless requires backtracking
02:03:51 <imode> like that stupid glamor shot thing.
02:03:58 <imode> or trainer video or something.
02:04:27 <ais523> in the earlier Pokémon games, you had a lot of freedom of where to go after a bit; that means you spend much of your time exploring rather than running around
02:04:31 <imode> it took way too long to get from A to B. compare that to RSE where nearly every path was the same regardless of your mode of transportation.
02:04:32 <ais523> and you have flexibility to choose a better route
02:04:58 <ais523> in the later games (BW onwards, although DPP was starting to get that way) the routes are set
02:05:11 <ais523> and the only choice is whether to skip or do optional dungeons
02:05:25 <imode> they're going with the "how long can we make this game" approach.
02:05:42 <hppavilion[1]> How DOES one viginere encrypt a message containing diacritics when the diacritics are not considered to produce distinct letters?
02:05:42 <ais523> well, having a lot of gameplay is good, but having a lot of filler is bad
02:06:10 <imode> it was just filler... every location seemed to have a purpose in RSE and earlier games.
02:06:14 <imode> like, physical locations made sense.
02:06:19 <imode> but what the fuck is the reflection cave.
02:07:21 <ais523> but it's completely insignificant and IIRC nothing makes you go there
02:08:02 <imode> I think the 2D aspect of pokemon makes me like it.
02:08:10 <imode> everything's a bunch of tiles.
02:08:13 <ais523> actually I think later games have cared too much about being visually interesting than interesting from an activity point of view
02:08:18 <ais523> compare the gyms in RSE to those in XY
02:08:28 <imode> some of the RSE gyms are mindbenders.
02:08:41 <ais523> XY's gyms are nearly always "go from place to place fighting trainers"; there's no real puzzle there, just pretty things to look at
02:08:46 <imode> played the fortree one on a trip. took me maybe 15 minutes.
02:09:01 <ais523> whereas RSE's are all puzzles that would fit in puzzle collections; they're fairly easy by those standards but they definitely require thought to solve
02:10:08 <ais523> actually I'm disappointed that the trick house isn't infinitely refreshing
02:10:11 <imode> plus, I'm not gonna lie, RSE and earlier were visually interesting because of their perspective.
02:10:17 <ais523> even if it looped, rather than being procedurally generated, that'd be better
02:10:37 <ais523> than the current "X puzzles then it stops"
02:10:56 <pikhq> I enjoyed XY, but it definitely was missing stuff.
02:11:16 <pikhq> I think they were focusing on the engine to the exclusion of the game.
02:11:33 <ais523> another thing I dislike in XY is the art style
02:11:33 <pikhq> ORAS would indicate that, because it was definitely more fleshed out.
02:11:57 <ais523> and yes, ORAS is clearly better than XY
02:12:29 <pikhq> And the director of that is doing SUMO, which is promising.
02:12:42 <imode> what exactly would you call that perspective for RGBYRSE.
02:12:57 <imode> like, the visual perspective.
02:13:33 <pikhq> The established name for it is three-quarters perspective.
02:13:36 <ais523> it definitely has a name, I just can't remember what it is
02:13:36 <ais523> I think it has "half" in it somewhere
02:13:45 <imode> 3/4ths is somewhere close, but it's...
02:13:52 <ais523> ah right, that makes sense
02:13:52 <ais523> I got the wrong fraction
02:13:57 <imode> that's not exactly correct, though.
02:14:08 <imode> y and z are not bound to eachother.
02:14:29 <imode> trying to find a good example image.
02:14:55 <ais523> the perspective in RSE maps y and z to the same onscreen axis, doesn't it? and z is the other
02:15:08 <imode> you would think, but no.
02:15:19 <imode> imagine the RSE maps as a heightmap.
02:15:27 <imode> hold on, posting an image.
02:15:32 <pikhq> The main weird thing with that perspective in games is that sprites don't match the perspective.
02:17:32 <ais523> in gen 4 and particularly 5 it's even worse, because the world is 3d but the sprites are 2d
02:17:40 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/JPSE
02:17:46 <ais523> that works in paper mario but not really in Pokémon
02:17:51 <imode> so, here's how mountains and stuff looks.
02:18:00 <imode> (note: this is my mockup.)
02:18:16 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/DnDR here's how the heightmap underneath of it looks.
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02:18:43 <ais523> imode: I don't see how that contradicts y and z being the same axis
02:18:43 <imode> so it's not 3/4ths. it's actually something weirder.
02:18:57 <imode> ais523: well, as you go higher, you don't.. go anywhere.
02:19:13 <ais523> as you go higher vertically above the ground, you move upwards on the screen slightly
02:19:16 <ais523> the same as if you went north
02:19:20 <ais523> just by a different amount
02:19:41 <zzo38> What I have been told is that they added chess clock recently in Pokemon game.
02:19:43 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if the fraction wasn't exactly ¾, it doesn't have to be for that sort of perspective
02:20:13 <imode> it's not 3/4ths, because if that were the case, then going up and "out" would amplify eachother.
02:20:22 <imode> because y = y + z;
02:20:36 <ais523> zzo38: the clock they used before was clearly ridiculous, it had a maximum time for each player's move (resetting each move) and a maximum time for the game altogether
02:20:41 <ais523> also it counted animations in the latter time I think
02:20:56 <ais523> so some people used shinies simply to add extra animations, because they thought a timeout would be good for their team
02:21:09 <imode> if you move "up" and "out" in this way, you're not adding your upward displacement to your outward displacement.
02:21:25 <imode> so it isn't 3/4ths. it's just a heightmap.
02:21:46 <zzo38> I wanted to make my own pokemon battle program; it has no animations so those can't take up time, regardless of how you configure the time controls
02:22:03 <ais523> imode: they are being added, just they have opposite signs to what you're expecting
02:22:11 <imode> ais523: ...no, they aren't.
02:22:19 <ais523> however IIRC RSE's gives them teh same sign
02:22:30 <imode> it's not 3/4ths. golden sun is 3/4ths.
02:22:37 <imode> pokemon rse is just a heightmap.
02:23:10 <ais523> when you jump over a ledge in RBY
02:23:16 <imode> I'll tell you why: build a mountain in pokemon, build a mountain in golden sun.
02:23:23 <imode> in golden sun, if you stand behind the mountain, you can't see yourself.
02:23:30 <imode> if you stand behind a mountain pokemon, you can always see yourself.
02:23:43 <ais523> this is only because you can't build one with a sufficiently high slope
02:23:44 <imode> height goes towards the screen instead of up.
02:23:55 <ais523> err, sufficiently stepe
02:23:59 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 3020 34.559 nuke
02:23:59 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 0.449050979221787
02:24:01 <imode> such as... a heightmap.
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02:24:10 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 34.559 3020 nuke
02:24:10 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 4507.56409815405
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02:24:31 <imode> does it keep repeatedly trying to join?
02:24:44 <imode> and can't somebody restart it?
02:24:54 <ais523> imode: shachaf's joining and parting it manually
02:24:57 <ais523> in the hope that it's stopped
02:26:05 <ais523> also I'd be surprised if you couldn't stand behind a cliff in the RSE engine; the problem is that the map design is designed to deny you opportunities
02:26:24 <ais523> things that are high above the ground also tend to be far north; the game map is designed like that intentionally
02:26:29 <imode> again, you can build a mountain/pyramid.
02:26:48 <imode> it's just that if you do it in 3/4ths and stand behind it, you won't be able to see yourself.
02:26:49 <ais523> ooh, I think I remembered a concrete example
02:26:52 <imode> because the pyramid will occlude you.
02:26:52 <ais523> the slide in the secret base
02:26:57 <ais523> you can stand behind that and be occluded
02:27:06 <imode> that's because it's on a different layer, just like bridges.
02:27:14 <imode> the game takes place on a 2D plane.
02:27:20 <ais523> it's because the back of the slide is vertical rather than being sloped
02:27:30 <ais523> and yes, it's a 2.5D engine
02:27:33 <imode> nnno, it's because it's on a different layer...
02:27:37 <ais523> i.e. it uses layers in order to do the calculations
02:27:43 <imode> it's not a 2.5D engine. it's entirely tile based.
02:27:48 <ais523> but the way the engine works doesn't affect the way the perspective works
02:27:56 <ais523> 2.5D engines are tile based though
02:28:04 <ais523> like, these are two different issues
02:28:16 <ais523> a) how the engine internally represents the map, b) how it's drawn to the user
02:28:18 <imode> what don't you get about "it's a heightmap and y points towards the screen."
02:28:29 <zzo38> Can the chess clock in Pokemon game be applied grace time and/or increment time too, or not?
02:28:31 <ais523> that's a statement about the game's internal representation of the map
02:28:32 <imode> and "it's not 3/4ths because they are fundamentally different transforms."
02:28:36 <ais523> it's not a statement about how the map is drawn on the screen
02:28:42 <imode> oh my god. yes it is.
02:28:47 <imode> look at the images. compare the two.
02:28:51 <ais523> zzo38: it's very unlikely to be customizable
02:29:04 <imode> that's how it maps from the datastructure to the end rendering.
02:29:25 <ais523> imode: is this an actual example from the game? because AFAICT it contains mistakes
02:29:27 <imode> it is not 3/4ths. in fact, go ahead, download a RSE editor, pull it up, and try to occlude a character.
02:29:43 <imode> try to build like you would in something like 8bitmmo.
02:29:45 <imode> because you can't.
02:29:56 <imode> 8bitmmo is 3/4ths.
02:29:59 <pikhq> It's a statement about the art style in use. In terms of the *rendering and data structure*, it's flat 2d, and to my knowledge it's carefully designed to not require a z axis at all.
02:30:05 <ais523> you can implement 3/4ths perspective using a 2.5D (i.e. multiple layers of tiles) engine
02:30:15 <zzo38> ais523: It is why I have to make the new one, it can be fully customizable.
02:30:17 <ais523> you can also implement it using a 3D engine
02:30:40 <imode> it is not. 3/4ths. in no way do you increase your Y coordinate as you go higher up in altitude.
02:30:42 <ais523> zzo38: there are already fanmade Pokémon engines that may be easier to adjust than creating one from scratch
02:31:00 <ais523> imode: you can go onto a higher layer, can't you? that's one way of modelling the Y coordinate when it matters
02:31:01 <imode> even in the art style.
02:31:17 <ais523> just like the Z coordinate in older sonic games is implemented as a sequence of layers rather than an actual value
02:31:26 <imode> ais523: you can go onto a higher layer, but the layers are stacked on top of eachother facing towards the screen.
02:31:30 <zzo38> Several features of the existing ones I don't like so much though
02:31:33 <imode> there is no parallax.
02:31:39 <ais523> I'm arguing that the fact that you can be occluded behind the slide is proof that the art style is intended to look like ¾
02:31:52 <ais523> even though that's implemented by placing the slide on two layers
02:32:03 <imode> the things represented in pokemon are impossible in 3/4ths because of the fundamental difference when you transform the 3d coordinates to screen coordinates.
02:32:03 <ais523> the only purpose for implementing it like that is so that the art will look correct
02:32:06 <imode> end of story. end of argument.
02:32:21 <imode> if you wanna prove that wrong, construct a counter example.
02:32:33 <zzo38> I would do it the server in JavaScript and the client can be any telnet client (you need not download it), but you can also implement your own client using JSON
02:33:11 <zzo38> To avoid to include picture and sound effect therefore can save a lot of disk space too.
02:33:45 <zzo38> Rather than ones using specialized clients
02:35:01 <ais523> imode: here are some pictures of terrain from actual gen 3: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Secret_Base#Layouts
02:35:20 <ais523> on the south wall of a room, the top of the wall is occluding the bottom of the wall
02:35:41 <ais523> thus, the art style is clearly not an overhead view, i.e. the y axis and z axis are both being represented via vertical movement onscreen
02:35:49 <ais523> or the sprites would have been drawn symmetrically
02:36:07 <imode> compare that to the overworld mountain tiles.
02:36:18 <ais523> however, the amount is very small
02:36:27 <ais523> this is because the camera is "almost" overhead
02:36:36 <imode> also, those walls won't occlude the character.
02:36:44 <ais523> thus in order for something to occlude something else to its north, the height difference must be very large
02:37:02 <imode> also, I'm going to say that this isn't a valid example because it's just a single level of depth.
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02:37:41 <imode> wonder how long that'll go on for.
02:37:44 <ais523> imode: fwiw, my actual secret base in Gen 3 was full of puzzles in which I had traps occluded by other objects, so that you couldn't easily see them
02:37:59 <shachaf> It was unlikely to make much progress in 12 minutes.
02:38:00 <oerjan> i'm guessing the negatives are fewer than the positives
02:38:12 <oerjan> shachaf: i was just wondering how fast it went
02:38:18 <ais523> at least, I think it was gen 3, might have been gen 4
02:38:28 <imode> ais523: I studied the way they developed the art style and made that mockup about two months ago.
02:38:35 <oerjan> i assume the great majority of karmas are +-1
02:38:45 <imode> down to the tiles.
02:38:47 <ais523> your mockup is incorrect, though, it reverses the 3D y to 2D y mapping, and also has a few heightmap errors
02:38:52 <shachaf> Well, it took a long time to get to 1
02:38:59 <shachaf> But the negatives will probably be faster.
02:39:04 <imode> 1. no, it's completely correct, I dare you to prove it wrong. 2. probably.
02:39:06 <oerjan> hm i guess haskell's comment syntax means -- may be more common than ++
02:39:18 <imode> heightmap errors were kind of common. I was writing a renderer for it.
02:39:19 <shachaf> People also use -- as an mdash
02:39:24 <imode> but that's how it works.
02:39:34 <imode> if you want to prove me wrong, create an example RSE map.
02:39:41 <imode> where building "up" occludes the character.
02:40:17 <zzo38> When I told someone else that I wanted to make the text version of the pokemon battle, what someone suggeted is that it is good except for one pokemon species where they draw dots on your face depending on your personality value. What can be done though is that if you have that pokemon, then your opponent can see your personality value!
02:40:34 <zzo38> (It can just be displayed as text instead)
02:40:39 <imode> zzo38: I wanted to see if I could make a "net navi" for those with a pebble smartwatch.
02:40:48 <ais523> imode: here, the trees are occluding the mountain: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Hoenn_Route_103_RS.png
02:40:50 <imode> if you've played MMBN.
02:41:18 <ais523> the mountain itself confines to the grid because it's sloped at a 45 degree angle
02:41:25 <imode> ais523: if the trees are occluding the mountain, then why aren't they occluding eachother in the same image.
02:41:30 <zzo38> If data files from other Pokemon battle programs are compatible then it can be avoided to rewrite all of the data files at least, so it is not entirely to write by scratch.
02:41:37 <imode> not on the left side.
02:41:38 * moony studies argument or 2.5D info
02:41:38 <ais523> it's just hard to see because the top and bottom of the tree is the same colour
02:42:00 <ais523> the trees on the left don't fill the whole square, just enough to block movement
02:42:03 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know if the existing data files are compatible so that same data file can be in use?
02:42:07 <ais523> like, the base is towards the south
02:42:18 <ais523> it's a trick that Game Freak commonly use in order to save on rendering costs
02:42:36 <imode> http://s124.photobucket.com/user/darkstewie69/media/My%20Region/StarterTown.png.html
02:42:41 <ais523> zzo38: Veekun has an SQL database of all the data used by the Pokémon games
02:42:51 <imode> so why is this not consistent.
02:42:53 <ais523> that's what most people use
02:43:08 <imode> RSE uses a tile-based heightmap in order to render everything.
02:43:34 <imode> here's a better image...
02:43:35 <ais523> I'm pretty sure RSE stores the tiles in a "premultiplied" form
02:43:39 <imode> http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/AntiSpriteTheft/media/Hoenn_Route_122_RSE_zps3ce687bf.png.html
02:43:57 <imode> go "up" on this mountain.
02:44:00 <imode> you'll be heading towards the screen.
02:44:05 <zzo38> ais523: That might be useful. Which unofficial programs use it?
02:44:21 <ais523> i.e. if you want to place something at a particluar place on the map, you add y+z and store the tile at that location in memory
02:44:27 <ais523> but that's an implementation detail
02:44:31 <imode> that isn't how it works.
02:44:38 <ais523> imode: in your first picture the trees are occluding the lake
02:44:46 <imode> the first is fan-made.
02:44:48 <imode> second is in-game.
02:45:09 <ais523> imode: look at the north side of the mountain
02:45:14 <imode> pokemon RSE internally represents its position as a traditional X and Y pair.
02:45:19 <ais523> the higher layers are occluding the lower layers, because it's a 45° slope
02:45:32 <ais523> imode: the engine internally doesn't use the z value except when layers are involved
02:45:35 <ais523> but that's just an optimization
02:45:37 <imode> the higher layers aren't, actually.
02:45:41 <ais523> the game works in camera coordinates
02:46:11 <imode> there is no Z coordinate in the game except for layering, which has no physical effect.
02:46:15 <ais523> both sides of the mountain are sloped at 45° in that picture
02:46:29 <imode> in no way can you generate that picture using 3/4ths.
02:46:30 <ais523> look, you're confusing the game's representation with the view that the game wants to show to the player
02:46:36 <zzo38> I am making a JavaScript time-controls library so afterward I will be able to use that.
02:46:39 <ais523> imagine a game that uses an isometric perspective
02:46:44 <ais523> you can store that as x, y, z coordinates
02:46:51 <imode> ais523: stop telling me what I'm confusing.
02:46:51 <ais523> you can also store that as just x, y, and layer where two things cross
02:47:16 <imode> you can't use 3/4ths to generate that kind of a perspective.
02:47:22 <ais523> this is the same with ¾ rather than isometric; the game internally uses an x, y, layer coordinate system
02:47:25 <imode> because you can't see _behind the objects_ wit h3/4ths.
02:47:33 <ais523> you can't see behind objects there, either
02:47:45 <imode> I can see the back side of the mountain while also seeing the front side.
02:47:55 <ais523> OK, see the grass in front of the entrance? then look at the row of rock immediately above it
02:47:59 <ais523> follow that round to the back of the mountain
02:48:02 <ais523> you'll see that it disappears
02:48:02 <imode> http://opengameart.org/sites/default/files/images/TUTO_chap3_Ody.gif
02:48:07 <imode> here's what 3/4ths looks like.
02:48:11 <ais523> because it's occluded by the mountain above it
02:48:30 <ais523> in the gif you just posted, the wall is vertical, the house is vertical
02:48:37 <ais523> they're good at occluding things behind them because they're vertical
02:48:41 <imode> so is the fucking mountain.
02:48:43 <ais523> in the screenshot from Pokémon, however, the mountain is not vertical
02:49:11 <ais523> thus it's much less good at occluding things behind it because it's approximately a pyramid, rather than approximately a cube
02:49:14 <imode> I'm challenging you to construct that mountain using 3/4ths.
02:49:50 <ais523> do you have a smaller example? that one's fairly large and it'd take ages
02:49:54 <shachaf> I know what 2.5D is, but I'm mystified by 0.75D
02:50:06 <imode> if you could, you wouln't be able to see the back of it because the front-facing parts would occlude the back ones.
02:50:22 <ais523> let me draw the top few lines for you
02:50:28 <imode> also, it isn't really... that tough.
02:50:32 <ais523> it'll take a while as it's a big mountain
02:50:49 <ais523> probably around twice as big as you think it is because you're misinterpreting it :-P
02:51:24 <ais523> ugh, the site keeps replacing the image with an advert when I unfocus it
02:51:27 <ais523> let me take a screenshot of the image…
02:51:29 <imode> welcome to imgshack.
02:51:39 <imode> or photobucket. or whatever horrible image service.
02:52:05 <imode> also, here's something.
02:52:11 <imode> if I was going "up" from the back of the mountain.
02:52:23 <imode> I'd increase my Y coordinate, right.
02:52:29 <imode> because y = y + z;
02:52:36 <imode> that's how 3/4ths works.
02:52:45 <imode> well. in pokemon, that doesn't work.
02:52:51 <imode> you actually decrease your Y coordinate.
02:53:57 <imode> because your x and y coordinates remain unchanged according to your depth. it's like traversing a heightmap. the art style is designed like that so large objects won't occlude your view.
02:55:47 <imode> those kinds of slopes pop up a lot of places.
02:56:22 <ais523> I'm busy working out the heightmap atm
02:56:29 <ais523> it's taking ages because I keep miscounting all the occluded area
02:56:38 <ais523> quite a lot is occluded on the north side
02:56:55 <imode> it may look like 3/4ths at a glance but it's actually not possible.
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02:58:56 <ais523> please give me time to do this!
02:59:08 <imode> but I just showed you it was impossible. :P
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02:59:45 <imode> you can say it's not all you like, that's how it behaves in game and that's how it was drawn.
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03:00:23 <imode> I know; I did research and I was writing a renderer for heightmaps like this.
03:02:33 <ais523> do you have a ¾ renderer so you can test the heightmap I'm giving you?
03:03:49 <imode> I had a 3/4ths voxel renderer at one point.
03:04:05 <imode> all that's left of it after morphing it into an isometric renderer is some screenshots.
03:04:30 <imode> it's dying from all the karma.
03:04:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no, it's slowly listing its entire karma database
03:05:08 <oerjan> so we keep it mostly out of the channel until it finishes
03:05:18 <imode> ais523: compare pokemon's perspective to ALttP's... you'll find that the same inconsistencies are abound. it's "kind of 3/4ths" but not really, and everything either gravitates towards or away from the center of the screen like a heightmap.
03:05:29 <oerjan> no, it's got down at least -2.0 hth
03:09:02 <hppavilion[1]> I generalized numbers unconsciously the other day, and I want to know if there's anything like it yet
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03:10:34 <hppavilion[1]> A single value V is a sequence of numbers (I use naturals, but you could use pretty much anything with the required operations and relations) [v_1, v_2, ..., v_k]
03:12:01 <hppavilion[1]> V > W if the length of V is greater than that of W. If they're the same length, then V is greater if its last value is more. If those are equal, V is greater if its second-to-last is more
03:13:08 <zzo38> I have thought of similar thing once but I also don't know if there is anything like it yet
03:13:24 <hppavilion[1]> I think of it sort of like a trophy case- somebody with 3 second places is better than someone with 2, but there is no number of second places that is better than a single first place (in theory)
03:13:40 <hppavilion[1]> (which is why I call it "cases" or "tropheries" for now)
03:14:03 <oerjan> afaict, that's order isomorphic to ordinals < omega^omega
03:14:34 <oerjan> and what you are describing is basically their Cantor normal form
03:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Bearing in mind that the length and values must all be finite?
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03:18:05 <oerjan> huh, seems like it's finished
03:18:15 <oerjan> i guess there weren't many below -2, then
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03:20:32 <ais523> imode: http://sprunge.us/BjgM is a heightmap representation of the same mountain that's shown in ¾ in the screenshot you gave, from the north edge down to the northernmost edge of the visible beach
03:21:15 <ais523> x is a square that's occluded; . is a square that is occluded but you can deduce that it's sea because if it were above sea level, it wouldn't be occluded
03:21:22 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I assume you came up with the same definition that addition of V and W (V+W) is equal to [v_1+w_1, v_2+2_2, ..., v_i+w_i, l_(i+1), (i+2), ..., l_(j-1), l_j] where i = min({len(v), len(w)}), l is the tail of the longer sequence starting at position i ([] if they're the same length), and j = #l?
03:21:52 <ais523> note that in this perspective, the front of the mountain is directly vertical, which seems implausible; the game's perspective probably uses a different scaling factor between y and z than the one I assumed there
03:22:04 <ais523> ("front" = south face, the one nearest the camera)
03:22:54 <ais523> like, I put the camera at 45° from vertical in that heightmap but it's probably more like 22.5° in practice
03:23:11 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think I did (although this was some time ago and I may have forgotten)
03:23:33 <ais523> the point is, though, that any camera orientation, from vertical to almost horizontal, can produce a mountain of that shape; you basically just apply shear to the mountain
03:23:39 <ais523> this is basic camera matrix stuff
03:23:45 <ais523> and shouldn't need proving
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03:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> And defining n*V for a case V (item-type p), allowing cases with element-types being a member q of Q (p \subseqin Q) (so usually q \in {|N, |Z, |Q, |R}. At weirdest, |S), and a value n (of type t) where (*) :: p -> t -> (\elem Q)
03:28:47 <imode> ais523: for the last time. read above.
03:28:59 <imode> it's impossible and you're wrong because it's a different projection.
03:29:01 <ais523> imode: you asked for proof, that's proof
03:29:10 <imode> I can't even parse that.
03:29:37 <imode> I was assuming you were drawing something. but it doesn't even matter because the fundamental proof is whether or not scaling the back slope can set you higher on your screen.
03:29:43 <imode> it can't. it remains unaffected.
03:30:06 <ais523> x is occluded, . is occluded but necessarily at height 1, other values are heightmap
03:30:15 <ais523> i.e. my drawing is the same mountain seen from directly above rather than at ¾ perspective
03:30:16 <imode> if you scaled the back slope of that mountain and ended up with a higher y screen coordinate, it's 3/4ths.
03:30:19 <ais523> but we can't see all of it
03:30:20 <imode> other than that, it's not.
03:30:21 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it started ages ago
03:30:25 <imode> so, you're wrong. end of argument.
03:30:37 <ais523> imode: what's your definition of "scaled" here?
03:30:44 <ais523> if you start at a location adjacent to the bottom of the back slope of the mountain
03:30:56 <ais523> you will move up the screen
03:30:58 <imode> you will end up with a lower Y coordinate on the screen.
03:31:01 <hppavilion[1]> imode: ais523: Would you like an impartial third party? Because I can probably find someone
03:31:07 <imode> hppavilion[1]: no, this is just stupid.
03:31:10 <ais523> imode: look at the picture
03:31:15 <ais523> specifically, the second layer up on the mountain
03:31:21 <imode> this is the last time I'm going to say this.
03:31:27 <ais523> this is because it's lower on the screen than the third layer is
03:31:34 <ais523> and thus the third layer covers it up
03:31:49 <imode> in this projection, if you scale a pyramid shaped structure from the back of the structure (i.e further away from the camera), two things happen in two different projections.
03:32:00 <imode> in 3/4ths, your screen Y coordinate increases.
03:32:04 <ais523> besides, here's an alternative proof you're wrong: every render that can be generated by a heightmap, can also be generated by a ¾ perspective (starting from a different object)
03:32:10 <imode> in pokemon's projection, your screen Y coordinate decreases.
03:32:17 <imode> end of discussion.
03:32:23 <ais523> please define "scale", it's ambiguous and I don't know what definition you're using
03:32:33 <imode> "go up the mountain".
03:32:34 <ais523> anyway, your screen Y coordinate /increases/ in Pokémon's projection
03:32:41 <ais523> when you go up the north face of the mountain
03:32:55 <ais523> imode: if it decreased, then you would be able to see the entire back face of the mountain
03:33:13 <imode> done with this discussion.
03:33:31 <imode> I don't have time to infinitely loop over an explanation you are clearly not getting.
03:33:38 <imode> what I need to do is cook dinner.
03:35:08 <ais523> imode: the easiest way to see this is to look at the beach; it's visible on the left, bottom, and right side of the mountains, but it is /not/ visible on the top, and the reason is because it has a lower rendered-y coordinate than the back of the mountain because it is lower on the screen; if being higher on the screen always gave a higher rendered-y coordinate, you would be able to see the beach
03:36:09 <ais523> OK; I'm just annoyed because imode asked a question, refused to believe my answer, asked for proof, then when I spent like half an hour providing proof refused to look at it on the basis that it couldn't exist
03:36:58 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I know that that's frustrating, but from imode's perspective you probably weren't giving a very good proof
03:37:14 <imode> you think you're annoyed, try "I wrote a renderer and drew mockups and understand how this thing works" while showing inconsistencies and you're just not accepting it because you can't listen to me for a split second.
03:37:24 <imode> drop your assumptions about how you think this piece of shit works and actually listen.
03:37:39 <ais523> look, you're moving the goalposts every time I try to respond to what you're saying
03:37:57 <imode> any more of this and I'm putting you on ignore. I'm sure you're a wonderful person otherwise but you're infuriating me.
03:37:58 <ais523> what I will concede is that in Pokémon, it's impossible to move to a location that's occluded by more than one tile
03:38:16 <imode> and this is dragging out too long.
03:38:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: imode probably isn't trying to move the goalposts; e knows what e means, e just didn't express it in a way you understood.
03:38:52 <ais523> what you're saying is that it's /impossible/ the perspective is ¾; what I'm saying is that it's not only possible, but also likely; however the way perspective works it will never be possible to prove
03:39:15 <ais523> because all renderings that can be produced in ¾ perspective can also be produced by an overhead camera (starting from a differently shaped object)
03:39:54 <hppavilion[1]> Either you two are using different sets of axioms, the definitions are different, or this is one of those weird areas of math that has something bizarre like how in Modal Logic, the statement "it is possible that p is necessary" implies "p is true"
03:40:05 <ais523> I'm also saying that the reason you're confused is that there are some small parts of the game which are clearly in ¾ perspective; you believe the rest of the game isn't, so you believe the game is inconsistent
03:40:09 <imode> in 3/4ths, here's what your screen projection looks like. x = x; y = y + z; in pokemon's perspective, here's what your projection looks like: x = x; y = y;. z is discarded because it's an overhead view. they are different perspectives.
03:40:19 <imode> and that's it. that's all. I'm not listening to you because you never listened to me.
03:40:33 <ais523> whereas I believe the game consistently uses ¾ perspective, and typically makes occluded tiles impassable in order to prevent you navigating "in the dark"
03:40:43 <hppavilion[1]> Ignoring each other for the time being seems like the best way to resolve this
03:41:05 <ais523> I'm just really disappointed because of people being so aggressively wrong
03:41:29 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: imode is probably thinking the exact same thing about you right now.
03:42:22 <ais523> btw, the source of the disagreement is that I agree that ¾ perspective uses the formula "rendered-x = world-x; rendered-y = world-y + world-z"; I disagree with imode's assertion that Pokémon uses the formula "rendered-x = world-x; rendered-y = world-y"
03:42:40 <ais523> and imode was ignoring any evidence that I could provide for the latter disagreement
03:42:46 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Just don't tell me about the argument so I don't wind up taking sides
03:42:58 <ais523> but confusing the issue is the fact that Pokémon calculates using rendered-x/y internally rather than world-x/y
03:43:32 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: right, I shouldn't drag you into it because as you don't care what the answer is, it's unimportant that yo know
03:44:53 <ais523> the whole thing started because imode asked what the answer was, pikhq and I told them, then they refused to accept it
03:45:30 <ais523> that's normally, especially in a channel like this one, an invitation to have your misconceptions corrected (because presumably you want to be educated because you care about the answer), but apparently not in this case
03:45:58 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I'm getting a feeling the argument might have been about different mindsets; one of you was going for mathematical perfection and the other for a high-accuracy approximation
03:46:49 <imode> ais523: for the record, I didn't ignore you because I thought you would stop, but thanks. again, the conversation devolves from a discussion about the way things actually work to trying to piss on eachother's keyboards.
03:47:10 <zzo38> Maybe it depends what Pokemon game? Maybe the different generation might work differently
03:47:27 <ais523> zzo38: it works differently from Platinum onwards, although the game's view looks much the same
03:47:32 <imode> you don't understand how this works. and instead of saying "wow that's how it works?" you'll try to make up any bullshit in order to "prove" you "understood it".
03:47:45 <imode> this is so stupid. it's a god damn pokemon game.
03:48:04 <ais523> zzo38: Pokémon Red through Pearl use ¾ projection but the game stores the rendered version as the map internally; Pokémon Platinum onwards also use ¾ onwards but store the map in world coordinates, not rendered coordinates
03:48:05 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: imode: Please, you two, just put each other on ignore for the time being. It's for the best.
03:48:20 <ais523> *also use ¾ projection
03:48:22 <imode> yeah, how about we both shut up.
03:48:34 <ais523> well I'm going to answer questions about this when other people ask them!
03:48:42 <imode> and continue to be wrong.
03:49:08 <hppavilion[1]> imode: Not both shut up, ignore each other so you lose interest in talking about this topic and the argument dies
03:49:36 * imode pulls up a random article from hackernews.
03:49:42 <ais523> actually, here's a really good direct proof it's ¾ in gen 2: look at radio tower here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Goldenrod_City_GS.png
03:49:59 <ais523> now I'll stop talking about it because I suspect if that isn't convincing, nothing will be
03:50:29 <ais523> like, it sums up the argument in one sentence, so it's a good place to stop
03:50:50 <imode> you ignored mine, so I'm ignoring your's.
03:50:54 <ais523> it just took me this long to think of it
03:51:11 <ais523> (also I didn't /ignore/ your arguments; I /disagreed/ with them, and pointed out the bit I disagreed with)
03:51:22 <ais523> if I'd ignored your arguments I'd have said a lot less!
03:51:22 <imode> you really want me to dissect that image so this bullshit can go on longer.
03:51:28 <imode> just shut. up. and I'll shut up.
03:51:36 <ais523> no, I just want you to look at it and see if it makes any sense with your worldview
03:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, but if you look at it externally, it's pretty clear you're just getting the last word. You very well may be getting the *right* last word, but you're still just continuing this awful, awful debate
03:51:59 <ais523> but if you're not going to do that, that's fine too, I can understand if you decided that your question isn't worth this much bothering about
03:52:00 <imode> gen2's art style isn't rse's, and I can't believe I'm saying that in a serious conversation.
03:52:15 <imode> I didn't ask you a fucking question condescending shit.
03:52:24 <ais523> you did, let me quote it
03:53:19 <ais523> <imode> what exactly would you call that perspective for RGBYRSE. <imode> like, the visual perspective. <ais523> it definitely has a name, I just can't remember what it is <ais523> I think it has "half" in it somewhere <pikhq> The established name for it is three-quarters perspective.
03:53:30 <imode> in all this crap I forgot the original line.
03:53:40 <ais523> then I've been spending all that time trying to clarify the answer because you disagreed with it
03:53:46 <imode> you're right, I did ask you what the name might be.
03:54:01 <ais523> disagreeing is fine, typically; we analyse each other's arguments to see where the disconnect is
03:54:03 <imode> and then further clarified that it's not 3/4ths.
03:54:05 <ais523> and eventually one person changes their mind
03:54:19 <imode> which is precisely why I was asking the question.
03:54:27 <imode> because if it wasn't 3/4ths then what the hell was it.
03:54:36 <imode> god damn I'll never casually ask anything again.
03:54:47 <ais523> my position is that gens 1, 2, 3, and the start of 4 use the same perspective; you disagree with that, so I've been trying to figure out where the disconnect is
03:54:48 <hppavilion[1]> I say this as a friend: I honestly think it's time for both of you to turn off the computer and go for walk
03:54:59 <ais523> not safe to walk at that time
03:55:09 <imode> plus it's raining.
03:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Then go to sleep. Or listening to some music. Or read a good book.
03:55:35 <ais523> I mean, I was doing other things
03:55:41 <ais523> just I got pulled into the channel to try to help explain this
03:55:45 <ais523> but there's not much point at this point
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03:56:11 <imode> now he has the right idea.
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04:03:45 <ais523> ugh, for anyone lurking or logreading this, I'd like to say that I'm very upset by this, and explain why
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04:04:23 <ais523> one of the main reasons I come here, other than talking about esoprogramming, it's that it's a channel with the sort of friendly atmosphere in which you can ask a quesiton, and often get an answer if someone happens to know it
04:04:51 <ais523> typically without the motivations being questioned (as they're often ridiculous), unless they happen to be relevant
04:04:59 <ais523> I value that a lot, and have made use of it in the past
04:05:12 <ais523> and I try to give back by helping people out with things they might be struggling with
04:05:33 <ais523> typically it's programming, but the projection used by Pokémon games counts too, I guess
04:05:56 <ais523> when there's a disagreement, then we tend to go more in depth in order to find out what the answer is, and that's what I was trying to do there
04:06:22 <ais523> there were other things I wanted to be doing, but it seemed like it was worth going through the effort so that someone else would do it for me
04:06:54 <ais523> and seeing all that be abused makes me very upset; it's like the more detail I went into, the harder things became rather than easier
04:07:13 <ais523> because everything I said was being pushed back against, with questions for more proof and the like
04:08:19 <ais523> especially because I used to work as a teacher, if someone isn't understanding something, I feel like it's me who's at fault for not explaining it correctly
04:08:49 <ais523> so I wanted to try to resolve the situation, and now that I haven't, I feel like I've failed
04:10:18 <ais523> anyway, I hope people won't be any less inclined to answer my questions, or to ask questions of their own, as a result; the conversations can often be really interesting, and typically everyone comes out having learned something
04:11:15 <ais523> I guess that's all I want to say
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04:12:20 <ais523> I feel a bit better now
04:14:08 <ais523> still haven't had many ideas for my hello world though…
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04:24:50 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 47.47 5018 nuke
04:24:50 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 5901.1484425243
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04:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, so how DO ordinals generalize beyond the "case system" I was thinking about earlier?
04:51:37 <hppavilion[1]> I assume it's probably that you allow cases to nest indefinitely deep?
05:01:47 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: Which case system?
05:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: A generalization of numbers I thought up that I called "cases" by an analogy to a trophy case
05:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: It uses the metaphor that a team that has won 2 third-place awards is better than a team that has won 1, but a team that has won 3 would be better
05:03:18 <hppavilion[1]> 4 would be better than the team that won 3, 5 better than 4, etc.
05:04:02 <hppavilion[1]> But there is no number of third-place wins that would, on their own, put you better than a team with only one second-place win
05:04:18 <hppavilion[1]> But a team with 2 second-place wins is better that that team, and a team with 3 better than them, etc.
05:04:35 <hppavilion[1]> But no number of second-place wins is better than even one first-place
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05:08:23 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: So you create a generalization of numbers in the form of a finite sequence of natural numbers C = [C_1, C_2, ..., C_(k_C)]
05:08:58 <hppavilion[1]> And C > D if C's last element is greater than D's last element
05:09:34 <hppavilion[1]> else C > D if C' > D', where C' is C with its last value truncated and D' is D with its last value truncated
05:09:52 <Cale> So yeah, that seems like a well-ordering to me: for any nonempty set of such things, it will have a least element
05:10:29 <Cale> So it'll be order isomorphic to some particular ordinal.
05:10:52 <Cale> No matter which ordinal that happens to be, it will have a successor :)
05:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Yes, and apparently this is isomorphic to the ordinals < omega^omega
05:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> Developed completely on my own while watching the Yogscast :D
05:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> (then forgotten about, then dredged back up later)
05:13:19 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: The next logical step was addition; V+W is done by expanding the shorter one by right-padding it with zeros to have the same length as the longer one, then simply performing element-wise addition
05:14:13 <hppavilion[1]> So [1, 2, 3]+[2, 3, 5, 7, 11] = [1, 2, 3, 0, 0]+[2, 3, 5, 7, 11] = [1+2, 2+3, 3+5, 7+0, 11+0] = [3, 5, 8, 7, 11]
05:14:16 <Cale> Sure, or you can simply think of these things as sequences which are eventually 0
05:14:31 <shachaf> one would hope that an ordinal notation can at least handle ordinals < eps_0 twh
05:14:46 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Well, yes, that's the mathematical version, but I was computer-implementing them :P
05:15:27 <shachaf> @google cantor normal form
05:15:28 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic
05:16:04 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: So, V+n (for some Case V and some scalar n) was easily equal to V+[n]
05:17:04 <shachaf> If polynomials are free ring expressions (are they?), what are CNF ordinals?
05:17:19 <shachaf> Er, that's Cantor, not Conjunctive.
05:17:29 <hppavilion[1]> So then, it was simple to figure that, as long as I'm extending numbers, there's no reason to constrain the /elements/ to natural numbers; I can allow the elements themselves to be Cases
05:17:33 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: Note that there's an interesting involution on these things
05:18:01 <Cale> er, sorry, I was thinking of something else :)
05:18:19 <Cale> If we were to insist that the elements of the sequences were descending...
05:19:01 <hppavilion[1]> So instead of the second element being infinity, the second element is infinitesimal?
05:19:03 <Cale> Oh, sure, you could reverse them.
05:19:17 <Cale> But I was thinking of a transpose operation that doesn't quite work out
05:19:37 <Cale> (well, you can do something like Haskell's transpose which squishes things together)
05:20:23 <hppavilion[1]> I also figured that nV for scalar n and case V is easily [n*V_1, n*V_2, ..., n*V_k] for k = #V
05:20:23 <Cale> > transpose . transpose $ [[1,1,1,1], [1,1], [], [1,1,1]]
05:21:17 <hppavilion[1]> I'm stuck on VW for cases V and W, but it might turn out like matrices
05:21:18 <Cale> @let tr = map sum . transpose . map (flip replicate 1)
05:21:29 <Cale> > tr [4,2,0,3]
05:22:09 <Cale> (not quite an involution like this, but it's sort of a closure operator)
05:22:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Though, wait, I could stick to the definition for nV and wind up with V = [1, 2], W = [3, 4, 5], VW = [3[1, 2], 4[1, 2], 5[1, 2]] = [[3, 6], [4, 8], [5, 10]])
05:23:12 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: But, wait, you CAN do ordinals like this descending, correct?
05:24:52 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: You can think of any ordinal as being the set of all ordinals strictly less than it (von Neumann's definition of ordinals does this)
05:25:28 <Cale> Oh, are you talking about my descending sequences?
05:25:33 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: I mean, if you were to take my Case notation and, instead of having a lowest level and higher levels that take precedence, you have a highest level and lower levels that break ties
05:25:59 <Cale> The ordering on ordinals isn't dense
05:26:19 <Cale> Well, if you can always break ties...
05:26:41 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, [3, 4, 5][1, 2] = [1[3, 4, 5], 2[3, 4, 5] = [[3, 4, 5], [6, 8, 10] dammit. Non-commutative, which is sad.
05:27:04 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Well, no, if it's the same on every level then there's a tie and they're equal
05:27:19 <Cale> Like, if it's the first element of the sequence which is most significant, and you're just taking the lexicographic ordering
05:27:39 <Cale> then that's dense, in the sense that for any two sequences you'll be able to find one which is in between them
05:27:46 <Cale> It won't be well-ordered
05:28:55 <Cale> e.g. {[1],[0,1],[0,0,1],[0,0,0,1],...} will be an infinite descending sequence having no least element
05:29:07 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: In the Cases, taking [a, b, c] > [d, e, f] means that you take c > f. If c > f, then [a, b, c] > [d, e, f]; if c < f, then [a, b, c] !> [d, e, f]; if c = f, then you take b > e and repeat
05:29:46 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: I didn't need well-order; it's not about ordinals, it's about infinitesimals
05:29:53 <Cale> Yeah, it's the other way around which gives you ordinals
05:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> And once you have that, there's no reason you can't glue it together into ([infinite], finite, [infinitesimal])
05:31:23 <Cale> the tricky part is how to multiply
05:32:06 <Cale> You might hope to get a field which incorporates various infinitesimals and infinities
05:33:49 <Cale> (or maybe a semiring, in your case)
05:34:07 <Cale> (we haven't been dealing with negative numbers or fractions anywhere)
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05:38:08 <shachaf> Cale: what do you think of the kuratowski closure axioms twh
05:39:18 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
05:42:08 <Cale> It's like cl is a monad which is also a union monoid homomorphism. :)
05:42:40 <shachaf> How can you generalize that last bit?
05:43:50 <Cale> Perhaps it's a monoidal functor, but I'm not immediately sure whether (empty set, union) gives a monoidal category structure on the powerset with inclusions... I'd like to think it does
05:44:37 <Cale> ah, yeah, sure it does
05:56:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Me4502 * New user account
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06:06:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50062&oldid=50033 * Me4502 * (+183)
06:06:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wutlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50063 * Me4502 * (+1896) Created page with "{{Stub}} '''Wutlang''', or '''Wut''' is an esoteric language inspired by [[Brainfuck]], created by Matthew Miller (Me4502) in 2016. Whilst the syntax is similar, there are no..."
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06:40:34 <myname> proposal: make a wiki plugin that changes the category labels from "brainfuck derivate" to "boring"
06:41:15 <hppavilion[1]> So... epsilon_0 is equal to omega^omega^omega^omega^...?
06:45:55 <myname> is epsilon to omega what infinity is to 8?
06:47:34 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, as it turns out, my form treats arbitrary nesting as the same. Apparently.
06:48:01 <myname> i'm not sure what you are doing, but it sounds broken
06:48:33 <hppavilion[1]> [0, 0, 0, ..., 1] with n 0s is omega^n. [0, 0, 0, ..., k] with n 0s is k*omega^n
06:48:43 <izalove> myname: i wrote a brainfuck derivative where < and > are reversed
06:49:15 <myname> izalove: so it's brainfuck if your tape is infinitely long in both directions.
06:49:16 <hppavilion[1]> So, from that, I found that [0, [0, 1]] = omega*omega = omega^2 = [0, 0, 1]
06:49:32 <izalove> myname: nah only on the left hand side
06:50:29 <myname> izalove: but well, it still qualifies for boring. more than other derivates even
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06:53:06 <shachaf> epsilon_0 is the least fixed point of (omega ^)
07:04:20 <izalove> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smarties americans don't have smarties
07:05:32 <shachaf> I don't know whether they're sold around here in general, but the name is certainly associated with a candy in my head.
07:06:25 <shachaf> Oh, but maybe I'm thinking of a different candy. I don't know.
07:06:37 <izalove> http://www.smarties.com/ this shit
07:07:35 <shachaf> In 1998, Nestle obtained a trademark for a tubular Smarties package. It later sued Master Foods in Denmark, which was marketing M&M minis in a similar package. The Supreme Court of Denmark ruled that a basic geometrical shape could not be trademarked and ordered the trademark to be removed from the trademark register.[7]
07:11:18 <shachaf> also "you people disgust me" seems a little strong tdnh
07:11:40 <shachaf> the people haven't even heard the gospel
07:11:58 <shachaf> also i was reading a bunch of chick tracts recently
07:14:16 <izalove> what's a good way to find which people are in both #foo and #bar ?
07:14:53 <izalove> my current approach is to use /names twice and then copy it in vim, then :%s/ /\r/g and then :%! sort | uniq -d
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07:15:39 <shachaf> I've done that exact thing before. :-(
07:18:26 <shachaf> Cale: A union is just a pushout, right?
07:19:30 <shachaf> Can the union axiom be expressed in those terms?
07:19:45 <shachaf> I guess it's not a pushout when you're talking about the poset category of inclusions.
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07:23:07 <izalove> shachaf: fuck you, you made me google chick tracts and the guy's dead and i'm sad now
07:23:47 <izalove> yes that's what the website says
07:24:31 <shachaf> which incidentally are they even allowed to say
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07:36:25 <shachaf> Similar to the other sort of Smarties? I guess only one is chocolate-filled.
07:36:32 <ais523> on the subject of weird happenings with my computer: if I'm charging the router's battery from the USB port adjacent to the headphone port, and am using headphones
07:36:43 <ais523> I can hear Internet connections
07:36:52 <ais523> a sort of buzzing when the computer is downloading (possibly also uploading) data
07:37:35 <shachaf> this "jesus died" thing is such a scam
07:38:42 <ais523> hmm, is this why smarties are sold in a hexagonal-prism tube nowadays rather than a cylinder?
07:38:43 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I smell that if you do enough LSD, you can smell sound
07:39:04 <ais523> although that could also be to make them pack better, or to make them easier to manufacture
07:40:14 <ais523> I'm not sure inducing synaesthesia between senses I already have is useful
07:40:25 <ais523> and am especially unwilling to use illegal drugs for such a minor purpose
07:40:37 <ais523> (meanwhile, the advantage of the bandwidth-to-sound conversion is that it gives me a sense I wouldn't otherwise have)
07:41:00 <shachaf> What's the disadvantage of illegal drugs?
07:42:56 <hppavilion[1]> And they're illegal because of all the disadvantages
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09:08:13 <izalove> github's halloween theme is nice
09:12:18 <fizzie> I must be missing something - I didn't see anything halloweeny (or different at all from normal) there.
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10:23:04 <FaerieFly> <izalove> what's a good way to find which people are in both #foo and #bar ? ← write a client-side script for your favourite IRC client to print the intersection?
10:23:20 <FaerieFly> (I've asked myself the same thing in the past, but haven't bothered with it yet)
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10:39:49 <HackEgo> orodruin//The Orodruin is a mountain heated by earth spirits. Sauron moved to Mordor because boiling water for his morning tea with the fires of the Orodruin was so convenient.
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10:46:35 <boily> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/orodruin
10:46:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/orodruin//The Orodruin is a mountain heated by earth spirits. Sauron moved to Mordor because boiling water for his morning tea with the fires of the Orodruin was so convenient.
10:47:27 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan. you really did special case sed -i. bleh! flblblblblbl! :Þ
10:59:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:YSomebody]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50064&oldid=50022 * YSomebody * (+448)
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12:20:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50065&oldid=45900 * TuxCrafting * (+4377) o_O
12:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Somebody1234 * New user account
12:33:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50066&oldid=50062 * Somebody1234 * (+246) This is the intro page right?
12:34:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50067&oldid=50065 * Somebody1234 * (-116) Remove tags made obsolete by feersum's answer
12:40:15 <HackEgo> Concentrate and ask again.
12:58:29 <HackEgo> terminal symbol//A terminal symbol is a terminal condition that makes your parser die eventually. Consult your linguist for medical advice.
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13:17:33 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
13:32:05 <int-e> almost 3h20m worth of karma... ugh.
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14:26:17 <HackEgo> Water is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can suddenly fall from the heavens.
14:27:30 <alercah> wob_jonas: what is the wob?
14:28:19 <wob_jonas> hello, alercah. the wob is because I'm using a wob-based irc client (kiwiirc.com) for this conenction, plus it ends in a b which is in my normal nick
14:28:33 <HackEgo> Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some thé or caffè and a fternooner.
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14:39:33 <\oren\> bing has a nice haloween theme today
14:43:06 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvsNz2QMbI
14:46:09 <\oren\> also, the usa government is on the brink of capitulating to the U.S. cat population as usual
14:47:31 <\oren\> all hail the glorious Imperium Felium!
14:47:42 <fizzie> I like our Halloween Doodle game.
14:59:47 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
15:00:14 <int-e> . o O ( They have recently switched to the non-evil side. )
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15:24:10 <wob_jonas> `learn A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk.
15:24:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'galaxy': A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk.
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17:05:59 <HackEgo> olist 1057: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:29:24 <wob_jonas> A lot of people call the world map in a video game the "overworld". Is this because of the Legend of Zelda game?
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17:35:42 <quintopia> the latest abstruse goose is pretty awesome
17:36:14 <wob_jonas> no way. that comic is dead, isn't it?
17:52:33 <izalove> http://i.imgur.com/4VxsfTG.png goto soSueMe;
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18:00:50 <HackEgo> sort: open failed: moony: No such file or directory
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18:07:21 <quintopia> wob_jonas: i think it's dead in the same way pbf is. namely, it updates irregularly spread out over very long spans of time
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18:08:26 <wob_jonas> but I think it's more dead than Everyday Heroes
18:08:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Currently dressed up as a channel for practical use. Scary! | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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18:43:05 <wob_jonas> The tricky part with vegetables is that many of them have two names in Hungarian, and you have to learn both of the names to make sense of menus, recipes, or price signs in shops or markets. Specifically, krumpli = burgonya; zöldborsó = cukorborsó, fehérretek = jégcsapretek, pirosretek = vajretek (IIRC, it's confusing because there's also sörretek)
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18:51:01 <wob_jonas> Since as a kid you only learn one of the names from your family, learning the rest is sort of a rite of passage during growing up.
18:52:46 <alercah> I heard one explanation for the naming of meat being that the peasants called animals by their germanic names and the nobles by their romantic ones, and the differentiation by animal vs meat came about because the nobles mostly ate animals and the peasants mostly didn't
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18:54:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, the only examples I can think of in English are swedes and aubergines
18:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i feel like there are more but i can't remember offhand
18:55:35 <Taneb> (= rutabagas and eggplants respectively)
18:56:39 <shachaf> rutabagas are square roots, if i remember correctly
18:58:47 <wob_jonas> Meat doesn't have many exacly equivalent words in Hungarian (though there's baromfi = szárnyas), but there is a large vocabulary for the same animal when it's male, female, neutered, young, etc, and of specific body parts that are applicable to only one animal (tarja, bélszín, szűzérme).
19:00:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Betseg * New user account
19:00:40 <alercah> although many are not used these days
19:03:43 <zzo38> When do you think Samhain will be? People are not always agreement. To some people it is October 31 (same as Hallowe'en) in the northern hemisphere, to some people it is 15 Scorpio in the northern hemisphere (regardless what date that might be), to some people it depends on the phase of the moon, and to some people "Samhain" simply means "November". (And, "Hallowe'en" is short for "Hallows Eve".)
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19:04:56 <zzo38> (I myself don't care when in Samhain, but it is sometime near now; it is how the seasons go)
19:05:44 <zzo38> Hallows Day is November 1, but how common does anyone do anything for Hallows Day anymore?
19:06:35 <alercah> I believe it's still celebrated in some branches of Christianity
19:06:42 <alercah> it's traditionally a feast day
19:07:03 <zzo38> Although probably some people ignore it even if they are Christian
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19:07:30 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, it's a bank holiday here and the custom is for people to visit the cementaries for graves of their dead relatives (relatives who are still alive are visited on Easter and Christmas)
19:07:52 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Ah, OK. Where is that?
19:08:22 <wob_jonas> it's a very popular custom, so much that there are extra buses going to cementaries
19:09:58 <zzo38> What I have read is that the Catholic Church invented the name Hallows Eve to go with Hallows Day, even though they did not invent the stuff that happens on Hallows Eve.
19:13:00 <zzo38> To me, it is sensible to put the religious holidays according to the seasons (which is what Pagans generally do), even though Christians don't. This can be problem in southern hemisphere because Christmas is on Dec.25 even though it is the summer time there!
19:14:03 <wob_jonas> (So obviously it's a commercialized holiday where flower shops earn a lot of money, just like women's day, Valentine day, and teachers' day.)
19:14:04 <zzo38> I don't know if it make sense to you or not (regardless of your religion, even if you are non-religious, I think it makes sense)
19:15:29 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, probably many shops will earn a lot of money because a lot of commercialized holiday is done, maybe a bit too much, but it is your choice to buy it or not, anyways.
19:15:33 <wob_jonas> Funnily, there seems to be no commercialized custom for October 23rd yet, despite that it's a national holiday. That's a market hole someone should grab.
19:15:55 <zzo38> What holiday is October 23?
19:16:11 <wob_jonas> remembrance of the revolution of 1956
19:16:31 <wob_jonas> it's a sad one, but that doesn't stop getting commercialized as far as I can see
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19:21:57 <zzo38> I think that if people want to buy it they can but they should not force people to buy it. If people want to buy it then the store should remain open for them and earn money. But, they have to know what to sell, if that is what they intend to do!
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19:38:34 <zzo38> The file formats support by my farbfeld utilities is still limited: PNG (RW), CHR (PC, Famicom, or Gameboy) (RW), PBM/PPM/PGM (W), Z-machine XZIP picture library (R).
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19:50:20 <Taneb> Happy programmer's Christmas!
19:53:27 <shachaf> Taneb: did you invent christmas
19:54:47 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
19:55:12 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s#any#Christmas, nor any#
19:55:14 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents Christmas, nor anything involving se
19:55:29 <HackEgo> the oxford comma? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:55:35 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
19:55:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
19:55:46 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents Christmas, nor anything involving sex.
19:56:09 <shachaf> i was reading a pretty good chick tract today
19:56:13 <shachaf> http://media.chick.com/tractimages67491/1075/1075_12.gif
19:57:54 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't not invent Christmas either
19:59:25 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I suggest that you invent it. you can make a great profit from it, selling electronics and other stuff people buy as gifts.
20:03:36 <HackEgo> Twitter is Taneb's bird collection (presumably).
20:04:04 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
20:04:20 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:04:51 <shachaf> I think I reverted myself.
20:06:32 <shachaf> Which shows the current state of the file modified by the most recent command.
20:06:40 <shachaf> (`before shows the previous state.)
20:07:11 <zzo38> I just played a computer golf game; I managed to hit the ball into the sand, and then my second stroke was also into the sand, and then from the sand I managed to hit it into the hole, making par.
20:07:19 <HackEgo> <shachäf> revert \ <shachäf> revert \ <shachäf> revert \ <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#any#Christmas, nor any# \ <wob_jonäs> learn A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk. \ <boil̈y> ` sed -i \'s/ / /\' wisdom/orodruin \ <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn theseus/Theseus was a Greek inventor who was charged with impossible-to-detect
20:07:51 <shachaf> On the other hand I don't see the point of your wisdom entry.
20:07:55 <shachaf> Maybe I'm missing something?
20:24:00 <shachaf> int-e: did you fix the @more bug yet twh
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22:01:27 <HackEgo> preorder//A preorder is just a small thin category.
22:03:02 <HackEgo> nooooodl//nooooooodl is the correct spelling
22:03:14 <HackEgo> lynn likes to impersonate seasonal cucurbitaceæ.
22:03:30 <shachaf> `learn lynnnnnn is the correct spelynnng
22:03:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'lynnnnnn': lynnnnnn is the correct spelynnng
22:05:02 <boily> hellochaf. shouldn't it be lyyyyyyyyyn?
22:06:30 <shachaf> who knows where lynn even is
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22:06:42 <shachaf> i couldn't find lynn even if presented with a lynnear map
22:07:11 * boily thwacks shachaf. 0.91 Sh.
22:07:50 <boily> would you rather have it be the FP (FunPun) scale?
22:08:16 <boily> @ask lynn hellynn. do you know where you are?
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22:17:31 <zzo38> Did you see the topic message? That is the topic today.
22:17:40 <zzo38> The topic in general is a bit different question.
22:17:43 <wob_jonas> and it's zzo38: soon to be yesterday's topic
22:18:22 <ais523> `welcome shalashaska33
22:18:23 <HackEgo> shalashaska33: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:21:46 <boily> welcoming people make them leave...
22:24:04 <ais523> they could have wanted a channel about something else
22:24:24 <ais523> then they leave when they learn that the channel isn't what they wanted it to be
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22:25:15 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
22:26:24 <^v> i just started a youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCctpS7fJyQh6O5H44uN-4bA
22:26:29 <fizzie> I think that name was a Metal Gear Solid reference.
22:26:30 <^v> im gonna do a tutorial series on brainfuck
22:26:46 <fizzie> Not sure if that means they were more or less likely than average to be looking for something else than us.
22:27:17 <zzo38> Do you know how much is the average?
22:27:48 <fizzie> I don't have statistics on that.
22:27:50 <wob_jonas> brainfuck again? what's wrong why all the other esolangs?
22:28:25 <ais523> and something many people want to learn
22:28:52 <ais523> it's also easy enough that it can be viably taught, and has enough depth to give a lot of material
22:29:32 <ais523> whereas more difficult esolangs are often about finding the trick that lets you compile something else into them
22:31:00 <wob_jonas> hmm... compiling something else into them. let me check if you fixed your description of your M:tG turing completeness proof
22:31:33 <zzo38> What was wrong with it?
22:31:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:StackFlow
22:32:03 <wob_jonas> but it's not a trivial one word fix
22:33:00 <zzo38> The active player's triggers are placed on the stack first in an order of his choice, and then the nonactive player does his triggers in his order.
22:36:07 <fizzie> I saw a bunch of people in costumes today.
22:36:24 <wob_jonas> I saw a bunch of people in costumes on Saturday in the mall
22:37:17 <fizzie> I saw a bunch of people in costumes in Saturday in the tube.
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22:38:01 <fizzie> But it was also http://www.mcmcomiccon.com/london/ so I don't know if they were participants there or just some sort of a pre-Halloween thing.
22:38:14 <boily> I think I saw a bunch of people Saturday, but it's far away and there's no proof Saturday exists.
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22:40:28 <moony> i may be switching my windows computer to a GNU/Linux Debian system. any advice before i do this?
22:41:19 <boily> mhelloony. backup your personal stuff, and that's about it.
22:41:33 <ais523> moony: backup in advance; and assuming you're planning to continue as dual-boot, get Windows to repartition the disk in advance to make a lot of empty space
22:41:52 <ais523> then install Linux to the empty space (partitioning that as you like)
22:42:04 <shachaf> ais523: This immovable files thing Windows does is very annoying.
22:42:13 <ais523> Windows is better at resizing drives in its own formats than the typical Linux installer is
22:42:26 <shachaf> I finally figured out how to disable enough things to resize my NTFS partition to the size I wanted.
22:42:36 <shachaf> But it was a long and complicated list.
22:42:50 <wob_jonas> moony: try to search on the internet for experience by people who tried to use linux with hardware you use, especially wrt power management, video card, wifi card, and hardware raid.
22:42:53 <shachaf> Swap files, System Restore, all sorts of things.
22:43:47 <fizzie> If it's a laptop and a not entirely obscure model, usually someone's written an article about how Linux runs on it.
22:44:01 <moony> its a laptop. Toshiba Satellite
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22:44:58 <wob_jonas> right, it's more important for notebooks because (a) power management is more important there, (b) wifi cards are more important there, and (c) you can't easily add other hardware to replace hardware you can't get to work with linux
22:45:26 <ais523> I've installed Ubuntu on a Toshiba Satellite before now, it went fine
22:46:07 <HackEgo> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
22:46:27 <fizzie> I've installed Debian on a Toshiba Tecra 730CDT, it didn't go terribly well.
22:46:38 <fizzie> Or I guess it went reasonably well, but it was a little convoluted.
22:46:38 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access be*: No such file or directory
22:46:46 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access be*: No such file or directory
22:47:01 <ais523> actually, does Debian have a secure boot cert?
22:47:16 <ais523> and does the Toshiba in question have a secure boot configuration?
22:47:19 <ais523> if so that might need dealing with
22:47:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's complicated... it has one in the future, I think
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22:47:44 <wob_jonas> but I think on many computers you can disable the secure boot
22:47:49 <^v> ais523, the channel currently is a joke but i did create a ~50 slide presentation which goes into depth how to program high level programs in brainfuck
22:48:06 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes but Windows bitches if you do that
22:48:07 <^v> including a language i wrote which keeps track of variables and does other neat stuff
22:48:14 <ais523> the problem with secure boot isn't its existence but its configuration
22:48:27 <ais523> I made sure that this laptop allows changing the secure boot configuration before buying it
22:48:44 <^v> like right now if you search "how to code in brainfuck" basically nothing shows up but printing basic strings
22:48:46 <ais523> although the Linux half of the configuration changing was buggy last I checked
22:48:49 <shachaf> ais523: Did you figure out the job thing?
22:48:57 <ais523> shachaf: I had an interview last week
22:49:05 <ais523> haven't heard back yet; the interview went fairly well
22:49:22 <ais523> and whether I get the job pretty much depends on how good the other candidates were, I suspect I'd get it if nobody else applied
22:49:37 <ais523> so it's down to whether any of them are better than me
22:49:53 <ais523> programming for a CS department
22:49:59 * moony rederps and shrinks the C partition to make room for the linux partitions
22:50:00 <shachaf> better than you [at the interview process]
22:50:24 <moony> 33-44 GB should be enough i hope. >_>
22:50:42 <moony> because i cant get much more than that due to me being a complete derp and using almost all the diskspace
22:50:44 <shachaf> Are you going to write databases?
22:50:50 <ais523> shachaf: it's compiler-related I think
22:51:20 <wob_jonas> does the work environment seem pleasant?
22:51:33 <ais523> wob_jonas: I've worked there before
22:51:44 <ais523> moony: currently I have three Linux partitions: swap, home, everything else
22:51:58 <ais523> the "everything else" is currently using 6 GiB, and it's fuller for me than it would be for many other people
22:52:25 <ais523> shachaf: well the interview was in OCaml
22:52:33 <ais523> for the programming sections
22:52:47 <shachaf> What other sections were there?
22:52:53 <shachaf> Do you think the interview process is good?
22:53:01 <ais523> normal job interview stuff, "tell me about yourself" and the like
22:53:37 <ais523> and I was OK with the normal interviewy parts, the programming part I had no real issue with the questions/tasks but was upset at all the surrounding infrastructure
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22:53:47 <shachaf> "tell me about yourself" sounds like one of the most unpleasant questions anyone could ask me.
22:53:54 <shachaf> I guess it's a request, not a question.
22:54:04 <ais523> yes but it's very common in interviews
22:54:11 <shachaf> I think I'm unusual in this respect?
22:54:20 <ais523> saying that they were interested in the sorts of things I'd done in previous jobs, what relevant experience I had, etc.
22:54:31 <ais523> out of interest, do you have a job?
22:54:44 <wob_jonas> things you've done in previous jobs, now that's a better question
22:54:46 <moony> ok, adjusting C drive partition... now
22:54:55 <shachaf> And I've had others before this one.
22:54:58 <ais523> did they ask you to tell them about yourself in the interview?
22:55:13 <wob_jonas> and it's one that's probably worth to prepare for when you go to a job interview like this
22:55:16 <shachaf> I think "tell me about yourself" has been a relatively uncommon question in interviews.
22:55:16 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Though the first time I read that requestion, I read it as "let me tell you about yourself"
22:55:37 <ais523> moony: anyway I think 10 GB should easily be enough for the OS, programs, etc.
22:55:43 <shachaf> One time I was asked "what is your dream job?", which makes me almost as uncomfortable.
22:55:43 <ais523> anything beyond that will just be for storing your own files
22:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> Which is a REALLY unpleasant thing to hear, though not a question at all
22:55:49 <ais523> you could use the Windows partition for those
22:55:49 <moony> ais523, still want more :p
22:56:07 <shachaf> When I was hired, I looked at the internal company interview guidelines, and I found out that they just asked that question to put the candidate at ease.
22:56:12 <shachaf> The answer was effectively ignored.
22:56:57 <shachaf> Most of the rest of the interview was asking me technical questions, which I was much more comfortable with.
22:57:04 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'd find dream job hard to answer. the problem is that my dream job is not having to do anything but getting paid a lot, but that's economically unrealistic, and I don't know enough about the current market situation to figure out an answer that's the most dreamlike among economically possible ones.
22:57:39 <moony> wob_jonas, may do that
22:58:16 <shachaf> Another "tell me about yourself" thing companies implicitly do is ask for a résumé.
22:58:48 <shachaf> I refused to provide that at first, but eventually I gave in.
22:59:04 * moony is downloading the ubuntu install disk, because he thinks it may work better for a first-time dualbooter
22:59:35 <fizzie> I've managed to use 23.4 gigabytes of "everything else".
23:00:02 <fizzie> Of which 15 are in /usr.
23:00:19 <ais523> interesting, anything there that's particularly large, or is it an accumulation of small things?
23:00:33 <moony> ohderp it thinks i have a AMD computer.
23:00:44 <fizzie> wob_jonas: 144 kilobytes.
23:00:57 <moony> whats the value i need to make it give me the intel install
23:00:58 <fizzie> ais523: I think it's just a matter of always installing and never removing any packages.
23:01:19 <ais523> moony: if it says "amd64", that's the name of the 64-bit architecture used by both Intel and AMD processors
23:01:25 <ais523> AMD invented it, then Intel started producing it too
23:01:40 <fizzie> 3507 installed packages, according to dpkg-query.
23:02:11 <fizzie> There's probably some way of asking dpkg to list them in order of size used on disk.
23:02:49 <fizzie> I think texlive makes up for a big chunk of that.
23:03:06 <wob_jonas> fizzie: just look for large directories or files, eg. du -a | sort -n
23:03:56 <wob_jonas> or better, du -a | egrep "^[0-9]{4}" | sort -n
23:04:21 <hppavilion[1]> Yay! I think I made a small object that maps natural numbers to natural number k-tuples
23:04:22 <wob_jonas> and yes, texlive and libreoffice take up a lot
23:04:35 <fizzie> Well, /usr/share/doc/texlive-doc is over a gigabyte.
23:04:44 <moony> ok, yay, free 73 GB for whatever i want
23:04:56 <moony> i need to clean up my win installation anyways
23:04:58 <fizzie> It's the first really "specific" directory; the only bigger ones are things like /usr/lib/gcc and /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu.
23:05:02 <ais523> moony: did you accidentally delete your Windows installation?
23:05:30 <ais523> so where did the extra 50GB come from?
23:05:51 <moony> this is a 400GB drive
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23:06:06 <wob_jonas> deleted your whole porn folder? other movies? music collection? photographs? temporary cache files? spam?
23:06:19 <wob_jonas> downloaded version of your mailbox?
23:06:28 <moony> i should clean my downloads folder :p
23:06:46 <wob_jonas> video games or video game installers maybe?
23:07:01 <moony> i deleted a 3gb game i dont play anymore
23:07:42 <int-e> disable the stupid soft scrolling :P
23:10:02 <int-e> I don't know it, I really hate smooth scrolling.
23:10:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50068&oldid=50056 * Albedo * (+0) /* instructions */ code error corrected
23:10:36 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: try scrolling by dragging the scrollbar middle with the first mouse button or pressing pagedown rather than using the scroll wheel or other methods.
23:11:04 <moony> so do i have to burn the install disk to the USB?
23:11:59 <wob_jonas> moony: there are multiple methods. I usually copy the tiny (network) installer to the hard disk, then boot it from a grub boot loader (either already on hard disk or from a bootable dvd with grub)
23:12:25 <moony> yea, im using a net installer.
23:12:42 <wob_jonas> the netboot installer makes it easy because it consists of only a kernel and an initrd, no other files necessary
23:12:45 <moony> due to a somehow 1GB usb :P
23:12:57 <moony> thanks debian netinstall :P
23:13:32 <ais523> burning to a USB stick is normally the easiest method, although it's not the only one that works
23:13:32 <wob_jonas> obviously it also means having to download everything from network redundantly each time you install
23:16:28 <moony> but i already have a netinstall thing downloaded to my computer :p
23:16:53 <wob_jonas> burn the netinstall plus a boot loader to the usb stick?
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23:29:00 <moony> making the bootable drive
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23:46:35 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor's_theorem
23:46:44 <shachaf> that answers a bunch of the recent questions hth
23:48:13 <ais523> why am I being thanked?
23:48:54 <ais523> how do people confuse me and shachaf?
23:50:19 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: With an existentially satisfying answer form which springs forth the meaning of life, a Grand Unified theorem, and the secret to immortality
23:50:52 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Is QWERT the union of QWERTY and QWERTZ?
23:51:36 <ais523> clearly we need a QWERTX too