00:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about extending http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3920 with (a) a more consensus-based system (rather than a single anomalous objection preventing the marriage, the entire assemblage must agree- so even if one person is 5 sigma against this marriage, if the other people lean towards it more than average then it is canceled out because people anti-object) and (b) an additional "trust factor" that allows the couple to
00:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> acknowledge that the groom's alcoholic brother Jeff's opinions really don't matter to them as much as the Bride's [kindly old Mother who's bravely fighting a terminal liver cancer so she can see her daughter married]'s opinion
00:03:08 <hppavilion[1]> Each guest to the wedding is entered into a database and associated with one party (either the bride or the groom)
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00:05:43 <hppavilion[1]> (+1s, by the way, are not permitted to object; people likely to go together are issued a "joint invitation" that serves essentially as 2 invitations without +1 capabilities OR as a single ticket with one permitted +1, rather than issuing one of them a standard invitation under the expectation that the other one will be their +1)
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00:08:21 <hppavilion[1]> Prior to the wedding, the bride and groom are taken into separate rooms and given a list of guests. For each guest, they assign that guest a trust rating (any nonnegative real number will do). Each party also has the option to mark guests associated with the other party as "null" or "mirror", which is basically saying "assign me at the same trust rating as my prospective spouse"
00:09:23 <myname> or, you know, they can just give a fuck about objections
00:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm humorously doing advanced statistics for weddings
00:11:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Let G be the set of all guests, G_B be the set of all guests associated with the bride, G_F be the set of all guests associated with the groom, T_B(g) be the bride's trust ratings (T_B : G -> R), and T_F(g) be the groom's trust ratings (id))
00:12:24 <hppavilion[1]> (note here that we're assuming a heterosexual marriage; homosexual marriages follow the same process, but should likely use a separate database of past objections for the time being, given the stigma)
00:12:42 <hppavilion[1]> (group marriages, I have no idea what to do, but it'd likely be similar)
00:15:34 <hppavilion[1]> Next, T_B(g) and T_F(g) are normalized to 100 with a standard deviation of 15
00:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> Let T(g) = (T'_B(g)+T'_F(g))/2, which represents overall trust
00:19:09 <hppavilion[1]> Then, at the part of the wedding ceremony where objections are given, each eligible guest submits an objection in the interval [0,1]
00:22:16 <hppavilion[1]> The standard wedding objection is calculated (take the output of this algorithm at all previous weddings, average them, subtract each individual wedding's result from the average, square these, divide by the total number of weddings, take the square root)
00:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> For each guest g, find T(g)*O(g)^2, sum these values, divide by T_mean*|G|, take the square root
00:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> Submit TO to the server for consideration in future weddings
00:25:24 <hppavilion[1]> With the earlier-found Standard Wedding Objection SO
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00:39:39 <boily> Kayryluu kerjanch!
00:43:43 <boily> I kept the "yr" theme from yesterday ^^
00:44:21 <oerjan> doesn't seem to have vowel harmony...
00:44:29 <boily> hint: transliterated.
00:45:30 <oerjan> hm but can y be a back vowel, otherwise i'd still say no vowel harmony.
00:45:32 <quintopia> is it one of those dying azerbaijani languages?
00:46:15 <oerjan> hm caucasian you mean?
00:46:33 <oerjan> i wouldn't know those, anyway :(
00:46:44 <quintopia> like Udi--only like 6600 recorded speakers
00:46:56 <oerjan> i'm just wondering if it could be a turkish language.
00:47:10 <boily> it is a Turkic language.
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00:48:13 <oerjan> hm i can rattle off some names that i'm not sure whether are turkic or indo-aryan
00:48:29 <oerjan> turkmen, uzbek or such
00:48:47 <oerjan> (i.e. those ex-cccp states)
00:48:59 <boily> not turkmen, not uzbek.
00:49:33 * oerjan might not be spelling them correctly, anyway
00:51:14 <quintopia> kazakh sounds like a hacking cough
00:51:41 <oerjan> azeri wasn't _officially_ mentioned yet, i think
00:52:38 <oerjan> i may be out of plausibly turkic language names :(
00:53:11 <boily> quintopia: it really sounds like a cough. /qɑˈzɑq/
00:53:16 <oerjan> the one state i forgot :P
00:53:54 <oerjan> nah kazakh is all apples
00:56:51 <oerjan> boily: i'm pretty sure either the cyrillic or the transliteration on omniglot's page is misspelled
00:57:14 <oerjan> (the y and r are swapped)
00:57:17 <fungot> boily: sorry if i seem brusque, but it doesn't rank very high on the richter scale? :) maybe its a charity fnord"
00:57:34 <boily> fungot: t'es pas brusque, juste un fungot.
00:57:34 <fungot> boily: how'd you do ( eval2...) with ( a c d) evaluate to zero when serialized))
01:00:11 <lynn> Wow, charity fnords
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01:03:13 <hppavilion[1]> How about first person narration, but using first-person plural pronouns ("we", "us")
01:03:47 * oerjan finds a kyrgyz word кайың on wiktionary, but its meaning is "birch"
01:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheVirginSuicides does that
01:05:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you ever read math papers those are like that hth
01:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> (anti-fiction is purer than non-fiction in that anti-fiction is definitely, 100%, provably objectively true, whereas non-fiction is laced with opinions and point-of-view bias)
01:06:41 <boily> math is fictional. ask any mathematician hth
01:11:50 <quintopia> but at least it's a fiction that's more consistent with humanity's perception of the behavior of the universe than any other fictions out there
01:12:08 <quintopia> i'll take "math says so" over "god says so" any day of the week
01:12:30 <oerjan> i find a claim that кайрылуу means "case", and that has more google hits than the original spelling.
01:12:53 <oerjan> boily: i'm starting to suspect that omniglot entry is nonsense :P
01:13:40 <oerjan> indeed, but the other words seems dubious.
01:13:58 <oerjan> hm maybe i should google the whole phrase.
01:16:01 <oerjan> unswapped has 382 hits, swapped 8.
01:18:09 <oerjan> the first became 29 after flipping pages.
01:18:45 <oerjan> it's so few you could suspect them all to come from the same flawed source.
01:19:50 <boily> fungot: which languages do you speak?
01:19:51 <fungot> boily: i think that syntactic environments are _much_ more easily expressed with one type of oo
01:19:58 <boily> oerjan: that wouldn't surprise me at all.
01:20:12 <boily> fungot: oo oo ooooooo ooo ō ooo?
01:20:12 <fungot> boily: i could be wrong, but lisppaste is at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ display/ 4532
01:21:15 <oerjan> fungot: i'm pretty sure boily's line wasn't lisp.
01:21:16 <fungot> oerjan: calamari's here. it's not the only barrier, if it somehow clears those two hw banging instructions, that bound instruction is likely to be that
01:22:42 <boily> fungot: oooh, calamari! calamari is delicious.
01:22:42 <fungot> boily: no, sorry, heh :) well, i'm with jeffie there. ( irc limitations)
01:22:43 <oerjan> otoh the phrases in omniglot are provided by someone with an appropriate sounding name...
01:22:52 <boily> fungot: yes it is.
01:22:52 <fungot> boily: might i ask what this is doing here
01:23:03 <boily> fungot: it is doing being flavourful hth
01:23:04 <fungot> boily: i'm also wondering whether perhaps other browsers are a bit less than males can get pregnant with some caos
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01:23:11 <boily> oerjan: sounds legit.
01:23:57 <oerjan> boily: i don't calamari wants you to eat him, otoh he hasn't been here in a long while.
01:24:57 * oerjan thinks the fnords are stealing his words
01:24:57 * boily tripped on oerjan's sentence. brain sprain.
01:27:18 <boily> fungot: haven't you ever wished to swap fnords and fjords, maybe just for a day?
01:27:18 <fungot> boily: xhtml doesn't render portably. hence the slowness in modern machines is due to the choice to use c++ analogies)
01:27:21 <hppavilion[1]> I think we need to make Greece an independent country
01:27:46 <boily> hppavellon[1]. eh?
01:28:14 <oerjan> boily: wikitravel suggests the more logical (given the other entries in omniglot) Kutmanduu kechingiz menen.
01:28:29 <hppavilion[1]> I think we need to tell Greece that we're making Lesbos an independent country
01:30:15 <oerjan> boily: i think fnord should be inflected the same as icelandic fjord, anyway.
01:30:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think they like to spell it Lesvos these days, for obvious reasons.
01:31:51 <boily> fjord, fjordn, fjordr, fjordet, fjordar...
01:31:54 <oerjan> `addquote <hppavilion[1]> I think we need to make Greece an independent country
01:31:56 <HackEgo> 1288) <hppavilion[1]> I think we need to make Greece an independent country
01:32:52 <hppavilion[1]> I am of the opinion that using s/// isn't just correct a mistake- it undoes it
01:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> Once s/// has been used, the mistake is erased from all of time and space
01:33:12 <oerjan> i am of the opposite opinion hth
01:33:18 <boily> shh... is okay now... you will be PDFed...
01:34:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway, you are now in the quotes in the proud tradition of itidus hth
01:34:09 <HackEgo> 394) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 415) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 416) <monqy> itidus20: i s
01:35:02 <HackEgo> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
01:35:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: we have no disproof of that hth
01:37:08 <oerjan> <boily> fjord, fjordn, fjordr, fjordet, fjordar... <-- no, it's more glorious than that. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fj%C3%B6r%C3%B0ur
01:40:14 <boily> I couldn't have dreamt it better.
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02:11:35 <Sgeo> kmc linked to this: http://inutile.club/estatis/falso/
02:13:01 <alercah> the best thing about Falso is that it is consistent
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02:19:33 <zzo38> How can it be consistent if everything is true?
02:20:56 <Sgeo> zzo38, that's easy to prove, just use the axiom
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02:27:49 <HackEgo> Ashura: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:28:58 <Ashura> Javascript quine: !function $(){console.log("!" + $ + "()")}()
02:30:23 <Ashura> I don't know if a quine is possible in Bugmaker.
02:32:02 <Ashura> Instead of writing "SET X = 1 + 1", you'd have to write "DO SET THE VARIABLE NAMED X = EXACTLY 1 + 1 NOW".
02:35:55 <zzo38> Let's see if we can make a quine with the standard TAVERN compiler? (It is a program I wrote but I did not intend to make a quine out of it)
02:37:06 <zzo38> (To see if it can be done without having the program read its own source file at compile time)
02:37:42 <HackEgo> U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0086 <control> \ UTF-8: c2 86 UTF-16BE: 0086 Decimal: † \ \ Category: Cc (Ot
02:43:02 <Ashura> Try to run THIS: ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[—>+<]>---.---.+++[->++ +<]>++.
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02:51:56 <oerjan> ^bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[—>+<]>---.---.+++[->++ +<]>++.
02:52:20 <oerjan> `! bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[—>+<]>---.---.+++[->++ +<]>++.
02:52:55 <oerjan> Ashura: seems a bit heavy
02:53:10 <oerjan> is it supposed to write more than 3 letters
02:54:36 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ \ # Get the bitwidth from the command \ BW=`echo "$I_CMD" | sed 's/.*bf//'` \ if [ "$BW" = "" ] ; then BW=8 ; fi \ \ interp_file ./interps/egobf/src/egobfi$BW
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02:56:23 <oerjan> `` \! 'bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[—>+<]>---.---.+++[->++ +<]>++.' | ord
03:03:19 <oerjan> ^bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[—>+<]>---.---.+++[->+++<]>++.
03:03:36 * oerjan has no idea why that would timeout.
03:04:08 <oerjan> ^bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.---.---.+++[->+++<]>++.
03:04:33 <oerjan> i think there's a bug, but it still shouldn't timeout.
03:04:49 <oerjan> ^bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[->+<]>---.---.+++[->+++<]>++.
03:06:08 <oerjan> i think fungot has trouble :(
03:06:58 <fungot> oerjan: ( fun with scope!), and the " include " prescheme.h"" line is not.
03:07:17 <oerjan> ^bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[->+<]>---.---.+++[->+++<]>++.
03:08:12 <HackEgo> [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+2014 EM DASH] [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+003C LESS-THAN SIGN] [U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN]
03:08:55 <oerjan> ^bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[-->+<]>---.---.+++[->+++<]>++.
03:09:04 <oerjan> ^bf ----[---->+<]>++.--[----->+<]>.-----------.[--->+<]>---.---.+++[->+++<]>++.
03:09:53 <oerjan> Ashura: your --- got turned into an em dash by some too-clever editor, me thinks.
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03:13:50 <oerjan> my curse of bad timing hits again. now food ->
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03:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> "Liberal conservatism is a political ideology combining conservative policies with liberal stances"
03:25:13 <hppavilion[1]> So... "The gays should be allowed to get married, and if President, I promise to get Congress to pass a law defining marriage as between one man, one woman, with additional taxes every year the mother isn't Pregnant or actively raising a child under the age of 4, and both must be virgins"
03:30:35 <alercah> alt-right is a specific group of people who self-identify
03:30:47 <alercah> it's not an "academic" (read: outside) term
03:31:44 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Well also, the "alt-right" is a branch of the Right with certain distinguishing characteristics
03:32:06 <hppavilion[1]> So the alt-left would be a part of the left with similar (or analogous) characteristics
03:32:34 <\oren\> alt-right used to be a tiny group of twitter trolls that grew out of gay nazis and gamergate
03:33:24 <\oren\> now that hillary has mentioned them on a national stage, they are becoming a giant group that will influence american politics for yers to come
03:33:34 <alercah> gamergate was kind of ok when it was about ethics in journalism
03:33:39 <alercah> the moment it wasn't it should have died
03:33:49 <alercah> (that is, the moment it was revealed it was false)
03:34:47 <\oren\> hillary mentioning "alt-right" on a national stage was giant blunder imo, because now the trump voters have a label that they can carry even if trump loses
03:36:05 <\oren\> it was equivalent to creating a viral meme against your own ideology
03:36:32 <hppavilion[1]> The alt-right is associated with white nationalism, white supremacism, antisemitism, right-wing populism, nativism, and the neoreactionary movement
03:37:45 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: anyway, the alt right will grow to just mean people who voted for trump in this election
03:37:47 <hppavilion[1]> (assuming feminists in this context mean third wavers. Classical (first-wave, maybe second-wave) feminism is cool.)
03:38:21 <hppavilion[1]> So the alt-left would be overly multicultural/diversity-yay (not to the point of "yeah, diversity is cool", but more "if your thing isn't diverse enough you're a bad person"- affirmative action and such)
03:38:36 <\oren\> or maybe a raaction to that
03:39:00 <hppavilion[1]> White responsibilitism (or whatever), which is "today's whites are responsible for our ancestors oppressing today's blacks ancestors, and should have to pay reparation
03:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> antisemitism becomes... not sure, yelling "islamophobia" whenever someone criticizes Islam?
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03:40:26 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: keep in mind that alt-right isn't a more extreme version of right
03:40:37 <hppavilion[1]> right-wing populism into... I guess the "if you don't let people freely immigrate from the middle east you're a racist"
03:40:48 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: it rejects many aspects of normal american right-wing
03:41:14 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It's the right, rotated 15 to 30 degrees clockwise, I think?
03:41:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: for example, the alt-right are pro-gay rights
03:41:58 <\oren\> yes, one of their main proponents is a certain gay reporter named milo yiannopoulos aka "@nero"
03:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> Not entirely agreeable, but a lot of the people against him (going around and tearing down posters for his events) are worse
03:43:05 <hppavilion[1]> And I guess right-wing populism also becomes "the status quo is necessarily bad"
03:43:15 <hppavilion[1]> Preserving the status quo isn't a bad thing when you have a utopia
03:44:19 <hppavilion[1]> Nativism becomes... I guess "immigrants should have a favored status to native citizens", but I don't think even the SJWs have that...
03:45:55 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, yeah, I share about... 40% of conflicted opinions with him?
03:47:13 <hppavilion[1]> She has an organization that "helps women who have been prosecuted for killing violent male partners."
03:47:20 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, sure, but what if the genders are inverted?
03:48:50 <alercah> yeah abusive relationships are one of the few cases where there's actual legitimate sexism in favour of women
03:49:14 <alercah> iirc they cut roughtly equally both ways
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04:04:24 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember hearing that the Violence Against Women Act established that law enforcement has to use a specific test to determine action in domestic abuse calls
04:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> And it assumes the guilt of a man, innocence of a woman
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04:22:45 <alercah> "8) NONEXCLUSIVITY.—Nothing in this title shall be construed
04:22:46 <alercah> to prohibit male victims of domestic violence, dating
04:22:46 <alercah> violence, sexual assault, and stalking from receiving benefits
04:22:46 <alercah> and services under this title.
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06:09:15 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, people can identify satire when they see it online
06:09:43 <Hoolootwo> it is 100% possible to troll so hard that nobody notices
06:12:17 <zzo38> I am not so sure of either
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06:15:04 <oerjan> i'll just assume hppavilion[1] is applying poe's law to itself.
06:16:23 <oerjan> also, i thought the point was that it is 100% possible to have so crazy really opinions that everybody suspects you're doing satire.
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06:17:16 <Hoolootwo> yes, which is functionally very similar to having really crazy satire and everybody suspecting you have really crazy opinions
06:17:21 <oerjan> you know, i'm starting to tire of how irssi shows only part of the line i'm writing, so i keep making these garden path errors.
06:17:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, that's a possible Corollary to Poe's law, but it doesn't directly follow
06:17:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's not a corollary, it's a lemma that's part of its proof hth
06:18:45 <hppavilion[1]> We must also assume that trolls are indistinguishable from genuine believers beyond content (so trolls don't just have linguistic flags or somesuch)
06:19:17 <oerjan> that's not always the case
06:20:17 <oerjan> many people troll without enough depth of knowledge to be convincing.
06:21:04 <hppavilion[1]> What sufficiently advanced thing is indistinguishable from /dark/ magic?
06:21:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: grey goo hth
06:22:21 <hppavilion[1]> When I build world-eating nanobots, I will make sure they are hot pink
06:22:35 <oerjan> also, artificial black holes.
06:25:59 <Hoolootwo> except the people here will see it coming
06:27:57 <oerjan> just spread a virus that modifies color vision first
06:28:02 * hppavilion[1] reaches for his swatter, but then realized he is not oerjan
06:28:49 * oerjan has no idea how people mix us up, anyway.
06:29:20 <Hoolootwo> maybe you have nearly identically-pronounced names
06:29:39 <Hoolootwo> as long as you don't speak english hth
06:30:45 <oerjan> you mean as long as you _do_ speak english.
06:31:50 <hppavilion[1]> No, "or-en" and "oh-er-jan (yan?)" are pretty different in English
06:32:23 <Hoolootwo> I pronounce internet people's names as if they're German and I have no idea why
06:32:35 <Hoolootwo> my first language is english so that's super weird
06:32:39 <hppavilion[1]> Hoolootwo: I just don't read them out loud, and pronunciation stays in my head
06:33:30 <Hoolootwo> yeah, that too, but I pronounce them in my head (or something?)
06:33:31 <hppavilion[1]> (people sometimes pronounce "hppavilion1" as "hap-pavilion one"; it should be pronounced "H. P. pavilion one"
06:34:22 <Hoolootwo> you'd have to know about Hewlett-Packard to get it right on the first try
06:34:53 <hppavilion[1]> "This year there are no rules. There are, however, a whole bunch of brutal laws, traditions, commandments, and decrees, plus some rules."
06:35:06 <hppavilion[1]> Hoolootwo: Yeah, and no one will know about that soon
06:35:15 <hppavilion[1]> The business will die, and I'll swoop in and buy the trademark
06:36:19 <Hoolootwo> hmm, I should buy their calculator division
06:41:36 <oerjan> i'd recommend getting their addition and multiplication too
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07:01:46 <\oren\> I wonder what will happen if I do this:
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07:03:45 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print"\357\277\276"'
07:03:49 <hppavilion[1]> (Never think about kid's TV too much. I tried to figure out how the name "Uncle Grandpa" works.)
07:04:39 <hppavilion[1]> (your parents would need to be an uncle/niece or aunt/nephew pair, with UG the sibling of one and the parent of the other)
07:04:43 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print"\357\277\276\302\244"'
07:05:08 <\oren\> apparently irssi is unaware that FFFE isn't a valid character
07:05:45 <\oren\> So I will need a glyph for it in my font
07:18:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: my uncle once was married to my aunt's boyfriend's daughter, that _almost_ makes my aunt both aunt and grandma to some of my cousins hth
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07:20:43 <oerjan> oh and i guess her boyfriend was both uncle and grandpa, then.
07:21:00 <oerjan> (almost. i don't think they got married.)
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07:37:40 <izabera> writing a sort(1) is hard x.x
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08:06:45 <lifthrasiir> I believe GNU sort (and probably others) is using mergesort with a certain amount of data buffered for the potentially faster algorithm
08:08:01 <lifthrasiir> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/sort.c ...and holy cow it's a lot of code
08:08:55 <int-e> well, external sorting... perallel sorting... lots of code to support various key comparisons... it all adds up
08:09:09 <int-e> (just looking at the manpage)
08:09:26 <hppavilion[1]> I just learned about Democratic White House High School AU,
08:09:27 <izabera> the annoying part is that each key can be sorted indipendently
08:09:34 <int-e> why haven't I used sort -h
08:09:34 <hppavilion[1]> It looks like it was on Livejournal, and I can't access it
08:09:48 <izabera> like, you can sort key 1 numerically, then one alphabetically in reverse order, etc
08:10:29 <izabera> and e.g. you can do -k1.4,1.7n
08:10:40 <izabera> which sorts numerically on the first key from character 4 to 7
08:10:56 <int-e> so you have a key description and an interpreter for it... perhaps 70 lines of code in addition to the basic comparisons?
08:10:58 <hppavilion[1]> (changing the idea a bit for more funny), typical politicians are students, the Media forms teachers ("Who do you have for FTFO?" "Mr. Stewart")
08:11:32 <izabera> int-e: the rest of my sort is ~130 lines so adding 70 is a lot
08:12:26 <hppavilion[1]> US government in a high school. I would love that.
08:12:40 <Jafet> don't forget to sort according to the current locale
08:12:47 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I should join the school's student government. As Secretary of Defence. )
08:14:47 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], my uni's SU once had a pirate president
08:21:04 <izabera> and the most boring answer award goes to...
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08:27:20 <Taneb> izabera, it's not that boring, it used to have a pirate president
08:29:11 <izabera> pirate as in installing photoshop or as in one piece?
08:30:21 <Taneb> Closer to the latter
08:31:11 <shachaf> maybe closer to eight pieces?
08:35:38 <Taneb> https://youtu.be/S3a7Q9GowoQ?t=27
08:43:01 <Taneb> Apparently he was fairly good as student union presidents go
08:46:08 <izabera> their acting could use some improvements
08:51:03 <myname> https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/08/keystroke_recog.html creepy
08:53:10 <izabera> isn't everything on that blog creepy?
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10:43:22 <fungot> b_jonas: ( fnord object object message args)) would be the
10:43:58 <b_jonas> fungot: it's not quite *that* simple
10:43:58 <fungot> b_jonas: eval ( call-with-values ( lambda ( x) x
10:44:20 <HackEgo> eurovision//Eurovision is the European way of looking at the world. For some reason it involves a lot of cheesy singing.
10:45:49 <b_jonas> `bardsworthlist http://www.bardsworth.com/?comic=man-to-man
10:45:49 <HackEgo> bardsworthlist http://www.bardsworth.com/?comic=man-to-man: b_jonas
10:46:42 <b_jonas> nice! Savage Chickens is celebrating its 3000th strip
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13:35:52 <HackEgo> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
13:36:08 <HackEgo> make: *** No rule to make target `it'. Stop.
13:40:31 <gamemanj> I think make wants you to stop
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13:49:42 <HackEgo> make: *** No rule to make target `dead'. Stop.
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14:18:58 <myname> https://gist.github.com/forairan/b1143f42883b3b0ee1237bc9bd0b7b2c
14:20:16 <b_jonas> fungot, did you know I'm older than Linux?
14:20:16 <fungot> b_jonas: presumably you read the sisc documentation doesn't seem to work together is to convince some pirate that acm actually stores porn. main difference being in the same running sisc process?
14:20:44 <myname> b_jonas: nothing to brag. i am as old as perl!
14:21:47 <b_jonas> myname: you can you tell? nobody knows how old perl is, because the history of perl before perl 1 is classified.
14:22:24 <myname> based on the release date noted on wikipedia
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15:52:34 <HackEgo> Sigarda's Aid \ W \ Enchantment \ You may cast Aura and Equipment spells as though they had flash. \ Whenever an Equipment enters the battlefield under your control, you may attach it to target creature you control. \ EMN-R
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16:31:52 <\oren\> Falcon 9 exploded on launchpad
16:32:18 <\oren\> payload lost, launch tower probably also lost
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16:34:27 <b_jonas> \oren\: an investigation will be launched
16:36:01 <gamemanj> in happier news, FF F8 F4 08 00 E5 16 7F FF 80 00 7F FF 03 C0 47 5A!
16:36:55 <zzo38> What are those numbers for?
16:37:08 <\oren\> `` xxd -rp <<<"FF F8 F4 08 00 E5 16 7F FF 80 00 7F FF 03 C0 47 5A"
16:37:09 <HackEgo> â...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................øô.åÿ.ÿÀGZ
16:37:26 <\oren\> `` xxd -r -p <<<"FF F8 F4 08 00 E5 16 7F FF 80 00 7F FF 03 C0 47 5A"
16:38:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:38:44 <\oren\> `` xxd -r -p <<<"FF F8 F4 08 00 E5 16 7F FF 80 00 7F FF 03 C0 47 5A" >gunzip -
16:38:49 <gamemanj> b_jonas: Do alert me when you want the hint.
16:38:51 <\oren\> `` xxd -r -p <<<"FF F8 F4 08 00 E5 16 7F FF 80 00 7F FF 03 C0 47 5A" |gunzip -
16:38:51 <HackEgo> \ gzip: stdin: not in gzip format
16:39:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
16:39:40 <b_jonas> gamemanj: that looks like an MPEG header
16:39:59 <gamemanj> In fact, they explicitly did things to the sync code,
16:40:08 <b_jonas> it's probably not a whole MPEG file (or some trivially empty one), it's too small for that
16:40:09 <gamemanj> so that an MPEG decoder would NOT get it confused.
16:40:40 <gamemanj> Also note that this format usually has framing, but if you pass it to the decoder, it'll accept it anyway.
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16:41:58 <b_jonas> gamemanj: is it a bug test case, as in, a file that gets some mpeg player or other program confused and crash or something?
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16:42:18 <gamemanj> It's a totally legitimate file, if you discount the lack of header.
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16:43:35 <b_jonas> gamemanj: apparently it might be an audio-only file
16:43:45 <zzo38> My own computer says AAC (although I have no program to play such a file)
16:44:31 <b_jonas> I don't have a speaker here, so I can't listen to it
16:44:51 <b_jonas> but it does seem to start to play without errors
16:45:04 <gamemanj> If you want to cheat, Audacity should open it, though if it'll recognize it without the right file extension...
16:45:15 <b_jonas> apparently it's a very small audio file you can actually play
16:45:31 <gamemanj> Look, if it's 4.096 seconds, then you have the right format.
16:45:51 <b_jonas> but I don't know what it contains
16:46:05 <zzo38> SoX fails to determine the type. I do not have Audacity.
16:46:06 <gamemanj> Well, I messed around until it sounded OK.
16:46:16 <gamemanj> It kind of sounds like a radio being tuned or something.
16:46:17 <b_jonas> gamemanj: but how can it be so small?
16:46:27 <gamemanj> b_jonas: I manually tuned the LPC parameters!
16:46:34 <gamemanj> And then looked at what comes out!
16:46:39 <gamemanj> Also, I did say I omitted the header.
16:46:53 <gamemanj> I don't know. Something about "linear prediction".
16:47:02 <b_jonas> yes, it's just flac without a container, but that's fine, I'm used to such media files
16:47:10 <\oren\> vlc doesn't play it with file extention flac
16:47:17 <b_jonas> you need containers if you want to seek or have multiple streams or metadata or such things
16:47:30 <gamemanj> You may need a container to play it with some media players
16:47:43 <gamemanj> I can put it in a container if you want, it shouldn't be too hard to engineer one
16:47:48 <b_jonas> gamemanj: some media players probably can't play it no matter what
16:47:56 <b_jonas> I mean, some media players don't play FLAC at all
16:48:19 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I could put it to a container too, but the wonderful part is how small it is, and that would be lost
16:48:34 <zzo38> I can play FLAC on my computer but I don't know if it might not play without the header?
16:48:53 <zzo38> I don't have Audacity
16:48:59 <b_jonas> oh, and for some formats, you need a container to explicitly tell what the video framerate is, because the video format only stores a sequence of images without timestamps or framerate
16:49:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh by the way, I wanted to ask,
16:49:20 <zzo38> What options do I need for SoX to load it? If I write -t flac then it says sampling rate was not specified
16:49:34 <gamemanj> zzo38: Again, use flac -d, or prepend a header.
16:49:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: could you figure out that css html multi-columns thing?
16:49:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: should I give a hint about the sound file?
16:49:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: No I did not figure out the HTML multi-columns
16:50:15 <zzo38> OK give the hint; it seems SoX won't load it though
16:50:20 <gamemanj> b_jonas: A hint about the sound file? It's FLAC. You all know that now :)
16:50:29 <gamemanj> SoX probably wants a container.
16:50:29 <b_jonas> gamemanj: about how to play or convert
16:50:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: play with ffplay (of ffmpeg)
16:50:48 <b_jonas> ffmpeg is generally the best to load strange or partly broken media files
16:50:55 <b_jonas> it will open stuff other programs won't
16:51:00 <gamemanj> and it has a nice visualization, too
16:51:03 <b_jonas> you can also use ffmpeg to put it to a container probably
16:51:18 <gamemanj> b_jonas: -c copy will do it without even losing the size
16:51:58 <b_jonas> gamemanj: you still need a container, any container must add to the size
16:52:18 <gamemanj> Well, yeah, but it'll still remain smaller than if it was reencoded
16:52:31 <zzo38> I suppose I will have to install those programs if I want to be able to play such file. (Fortunately I can install them; they are included in the package manager)
16:52:31 <gamemanj> At least if it wasn't failing because ffmpeg (unlike ffplay) doesn't like it...
16:55:32 <\oren\> successfully converted to mp3
16:56:06 <gamemanj> I have found a problem with writing a header - it requires me to decode the file to get the MD5.
16:57:22 <b_jonas> gamemanj: mind you, ffplay also thinks the sound is very short
16:57:43 <gamemanj> b_jonas: 4.096 seconds is correct.
16:58:04 <b_jonas> gamemanj: dunno, with -autoexit it exits in a blink (definitely under a second)
16:58:19 <b_jonas> without -autoexit it plays past the end
16:58:24 <gamemanj> Not a clue what's going on there then.
16:58:34 <gamemanj> Maybe it just doesn't like the lack of a container (and thus a fixed size)
16:58:56 <b_jonas> gamemanj: right, could guess wrong about something that should be in the container header
16:59:24 <\oren\> try naming the file x.flac
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17:01:19 <Jafet> is it not easier to encode silence?
17:01:45 <\oren\> Jafet: that would depend on the format
17:02:30 <Jafet> flac has a model for silence
17:02:41 <Jafet> https://xiph.org/flac/format.html#prediction
17:02:47 <\oren\> I mean, in musical notation, silence and any given note take the same amount od space
17:03:12 <b_jonas> are there two people in here who play with the details of the flac format?
17:04:07 <\oren\> a channel for digital esotericism
17:04:17 <Jafet> does playing since two minutes ago count?
17:04:34 <Jafet> flac frame format: now playing
17:04:56 <gamemanj> Jafet: it may be easier to encode silence, but that's less fun
17:05:30 <gamemanj> I mean, there's a specific subframe type for "absolutely nothing but one sample for however long"
17:05:40 <gamemanj> doesn't make it a good idea, though.
17:05:46 <\oren\> I guess this signal is the raw prediction out of one of the more advanced predictors?
17:06:06 <Jafet> it's used for encoding, well, actual digital silence
17:06:21 <gamemanj> Jafet: exactly, so it's no fun
17:06:48 <Jafet> like between singles
17:07:09 <gamemanj> \oren\: SUBFRAME_FIXED, order 3 (the missing -1 on _FIXED is NOT a documentation error), warmup 0x7FFF, 0x8000, 0x7FFF, no residual.
17:08:06 <gamemanj> Well, I say "no residual", what I mean is, RICE-1, partition order 0, escape code, 0-bit. Apparently no residual is a rare enough case they had to make it take 15 bits to encode.
17:09:57 <b_jonas> gamemanj: this might explain why the length isn't known and ffplay assumes it's very short
17:10:06 <b_jonas> but keeps continuing to play
17:10:31 <gamemanj> The length of it is described as the block size.
17:10:42 <Jafet> the reason for that is probably because there is no flac metadata
17:14:21 <gamemanj> huh, adding the header and double-checking it's correct makes Audacity act differently (it's somehow making it 1-bit)
17:14:29 <gamemanj> not sure what's going on there
17:16:15 <gamemanj> Hmm, except I set the file to 16-bit. I think 8-bit is possible but I had some issues with it, so I just took the path of least resistance.
17:17:02 <gamemanj> ok, what the... the sample dots aren't even showing up
17:17:09 <gamemanj> it's like it amped it up too high
17:17:49 <gamemanj> yep, Audacity amped it up too high
17:19:57 <gamemanj> Still, for anyone who wants to waste a bunch of extra bytes,
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17:20:52 <gamemanj> my goodness, that is one long header
17:21:02 <gamemanj> 00: 66 4c 61 43 80 00 00 22 80 00 80 00 00 00 00 00
17:21:10 <gamemanj> 10: 00 00 01 f4 00 f0 00 00 80 00 1c 06 a4 4c 0f 38
17:21:19 <gamemanj> 20: bc 47 61 ab 33 ce 65 76 04 b1
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17:21:54 <gamemanj> 2A: ff f8 f4 08 00 e5 16 7f ff 80 00 7f ff 03 c0 47 5a
17:22:23 <Jafet> can you overlap the md5 entry with the frame itself
17:22:49 <Jafet> that's unfortunate
17:22:51 <gamemanj> even if you had an MD5 that ended in FF F8
17:23:02 <b_jonas> gamemanj: can you use some other container?
17:23:06 <Jafet> it looks like the metadata header is fixed-size
17:23:17 <Jafet> you can use vorbis, but that is going to be even bigger
17:23:32 <gamemanj> vorbis is a totally different codec, and if you mean Ogg, that will be tons bigger
17:23:46 <gamemanj> because you'll get the Ogg page headers, supplementary headers dragged in by FLAC
17:24:15 <gamemanj> I just tested, the result was 202 bytes
17:24:24 <zzo38> Well, now SoX recognizes it as FLAC, but says error whilst decoding metadata
17:25:03 <gamemanj> zzo38: working fine for me on SoX...
17:25:43 <gamemanj> keep in mind the 00 / 10 / 20 / 2A are just address info
17:26:48 <gamemanj> The header should be 42 bytes, the frame should be 17.
17:28:07 <gamemanj> also I have apparently created an unpausable FLAC file, or at least in VLC anyway. Plus, the Ogg-container version won't load in VLC.
17:29:01 <zzo38> Replacing "xxd -r -p" with "utftovlq 48" has the same result and still doesn't work.
17:29:18 <zzo38> (I also tried both of these versions with hd, and the data is same as above in both cases.)
17:29:20 <gamemanj> Maybe double-check the hexdump?
17:30:20 <b_jonas> it's fun to see webpages with between 500 and 30000 pages all numbered with continuous indexes in the url, and a table of contents that ALMOST covers a range of natural numbers for the indexes
17:30:20 <gamemanj> here's it without any room for error, just in case I messed up:
17:30:26 <gamemanj> 00000000 66 4c 61 43 80 00 00 22 80 00 80 00 00 00 00 00 |fLaC..."........|
17:30:26 <gamemanj> 00000010 00 00 01 f4 00 f0 00 00 80 00 1c 06 a4 4c 0f 38 |.............L.8|
17:30:26 <gamemanj> 00000020 bc 47 61 ab 33 ce 65 76 04 b1 ff f8 f4 08 00 e5 |.Ga.3.ev........|
17:30:26 <gamemanj> 00000030 16 7f ff 80 00 7f ff 03 c0 47 5a |.........GZ|
17:30:31 <b_jonas> you can look at what the hidden pages missing from the table of contents are
17:31:38 <zzo38> That is exactly what I have.
17:31:49 * gamemanj has no clue what is wrong with the file
17:32:13 <gamemanj> somehow I wrote the MD5 signature incorrectly into the file
17:33:39 <gamemanj> so now I'm going to have to find some way of making absolutely sure I cut up this WAV file in exactly the right way, including endianness,
17:33:48 <gamemanj> so that I get the right MD5 at the end of it
17:34:23 <gamemanj> it would be nice if the "Other Uncompressed Files" option in Audacity wasn't making this harder by omitting important information. To SoX!
17:34:40 <gamemanj> (via the "flac" command-line tool)
17:36:23 <gamemanj> (some copying and pasting, especially of ",0x", later...)
17:37:03 <gamemanj> ERROR: md5 signature mismatch.
17:37:55 <gamemanj> Reversing the signature migh---ERROR: md5 signature mismatch.
17:38:12 <Jafet> wow, do players actually check the md5 digest
17:38:42 <gamemanj> the "flac" command-line tool does, and goodness knows how far that mess has spread
17:38:57 <gamemanj> after all, it's basically a self-test to ensure the decoder's working correctly
17:39:04 <Jafet> I guess libflac might
17:39:17 <gamemanj> otherwise you could end up with *gasp* slightly modified audio data!
17:41:03 <b_jonas> In this case, half of the hidden pages are broken, and half are apparently omitted because the code making the toc is broken
17:41:58 <gamemanj> Well, that can't be good for research.
17:43:24 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, it's a nice way to make automatic self-tests for unusual configurations (eg. strange operating systems or compilation options)
17:44:25 <gamemanj> "A passing neutron hit their FLAC files, and modifying a VERBATIM segment, it became... not the true audio!"
17:44:54 <gamemanj> (All scientific inaccuracies intentional.)
17:45:08 <b_jonas> gamemanj: no, seriously, it's for detecting bugs that only come up when both the system is unusual and the file is. those bugs wouldn't normally be reported, because people would just assume the audio file they're playing is broken.
17:45:43 <gamemanj> Fair enough, though if both the system and the file are unusual, fun may occur.
17:46:22 <gamemanj> Now, if the system is unusual enough that something goes wrong in the decoder, it's pretty bad from a "completely, 100%, lossless" standpoint.
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17:51:16 <Jafet> stop making fun of people who merely want bit-for-bit reproduction of their rick rubin albums
17:56:38 <zzo38> Idea of new Magic: the Gathering card: The next time a nontoken Aura dies this turn, you may cast it.
17:56:42 <zzo38> (I don't know what cost or name)
18:03:28 <gamemanj> Jafet: I'm more concerned about signal processing, where there may be a good use case for lossless files.
18:08:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:199.15.233.156]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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18:18:10 <\oren\> gamemanj: right, video/music editing would produce very bad results if every operation involved decoding and reencoding with lossage
18:25:00 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/_BgJEXQkjNQ
18:25:32 <\oren\> it seems that the upper stage oxygen tank may have exploded, which caused the rest to fail
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18:29:20 <izabera> i found some non-gpl code with a comment "[...] copied from linux"
18:29:33 <izabera> which in this case is likely to refer to glibc
18:29:49 <izabera> but i don't know how old a version of glibc
18:31:17 <gamemanj> Where is this code, and why are you using it?
18:32:46 <izabera> suppose i don't/can't show it
18:34:20 <gamemanj> Well... if it's under uncertain legal terms, why is it in the codebase?
18:43:44 <gamemanj> Under this scenario, I'd probably excise it from the codebase if at all possible.
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18:44:11 <gamemanj> If it's a routine from glibc, though, it may be possible to simply refer to the routine.
18:44:16 <gamemanj> If it's actually accessible...
18:44:17 <wob_jonas> izabera: is it in code that you intend to eventually distribute, as opposed to code you're just using in house?
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18:44:35 <izabera> it has already been distributed
18:45:05 <wob_jonas> izabera: try to contact its author or maintainer maybe?
18:45:25 <gamemanj> Is it being distributed as source?
18:45:45 <gamemanj> we will not speak of this. understood?
18:46:12 <gamemanj> There. Problem solved. And now for a 100-verse scrawl on beer.
18:46:18 <gamemanj> 99 bottles of beer, sitting on the wall
18:46:23 <wob_jonas> izabera: maybe look at whether it's copied to glibc from some other source that is under a less restricted license?
18:46:35 <wob_jonas> or whether you can find a replacement code that does something similar
18:46:43 <gamemanj> 99 bottles of beer, sitting on the wall, and if one should happen, to accidentally fall..
18:46:55 <wob_jonas> izabera: why not? you can try to look at comments in the file in glibc in case they tell that
18:47:59 <wob_jonas> I don't know if glibc has such pieces of code, but it certainly happens in other gpl-ed software
18:48:06 <wob_jonas> that's what the free software licenses are for
18:48:27 <gamemanj> I personally would use a force-push to try and excise it's very existence, and then have it under a gentleperson's agreement that nobody says anything. Push the existence of the glibc code down the memory hole.
18:49:04 <gamemanj> Seriously, though, if it's already in released builds, and it's actually GPL'd code, there is nothing you can do.
18:49:32 <izabera> it's been in released builds for several years
18:50:06 <gamemanj> Given you said there's no source distribution going on, it's probably already a violation of the GPL.
18:50:28 <gamemanj> So you'll probably want to remove the code ASAP and pretend it never existed.
18:51:11 <gamemanj> Because, you know, writing "Oh we were violating the GPL but we fixed that now" into a changelog is not a good idea.
18:52:31 <gamemanj> wob_jonas: I'm assuming izabera's priorities involve keeping a job.
18:55:16 <gamemanj> Also, izabera, never tell us who you work for. Ever.
18:55:53 <izabera> i didn't say that this is happening where i work
18:56:23 <gamemanj> Huh, ok. It just seemed that way, given the whole "released binary only product going for several years" thing
19:01:41 <wob_jonas> izabera: great, you get this plausible deniability thing
19:01:53 <\oren\> nInE nIn botLs uv bEr on Du wol, nInE nIn botLs uv bEr. if wun uv Dos botLs Sud hapN tU fol, nInE At botLs uv bEr on Du wol
19:02:26 <Jafet> that sounds like a rather tipsy transcription
19:02:28 <wob_jonas> mind you, since you already said it's not distributed as a source, but you read a source comment, so there aren't that many possibilities remaining
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19:05:01 <\oren\> oh, I guess some people pronounce ninety nIndE and not nInE
19:06:25 <\oren\> actually, since my dialect doesn't have t in botLs it should just be boLs
19:06:51 <Jafet> balls to the walls
19:07:31 <\oren\> yeah that's the closest approximation
19:12:56 <\oren\> I have no idea why but toronto english seems to slur the hell out of everything
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19:15:49 <\oren\> slR Du hel Wt uv evrETiG
19:16:08 <gamemanj> in less sane happier news, apparently warmup 6000 5FFF 6000 5FFF creates random noise.
19:16:48 <gamemanj> Except it's not quite random noise.
19:17:14 <gamemanj> There's little circles here and there showing it was at some point meant to resemble sound.
19:17:28 <\oren\> is it somehow tricking the decoder into reading uninitialized memory
19:17:39 <gamemanj> At least, not as far as I know, anyway.
19:17:56 <gamemanj> Should I just upload a screenshot of it in Audacity?
19:18:04 <gamemanj> I think it explains more than anything else what's going on...
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19:19:29 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: apparently 6000 5FFF 6000 5FFF in a flac file creates random looking noise
19:19:54 <\oren\> gamemanj is investigating this
19:20:16 <gamemanj> Well, not so much random looking
19:20:24 <gamemanj> when you look at it it's clearly not random
19:21:15 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/butterfly.png
19:21:43 <gamemanj> I'm pretty sure there's some overflows involved here.
19:22:57 <gamemanj> Also it's not just those 8 bytes
19:23:10 <gamemanj> Those are just the warmup constants I used, you have to have the stuff around them
19:23:30 <gamemanj> The total FLAC frame is 18 bytes
19:24:01 <gamemanj> FF F8 F4 08 00 E5 18 60 00 5F FF 60 00 5F FF 03 C0 FC 5C
19:24:42 <gamemanj> It's interesting that it acts kind of like it has a "velocity" of some sort
19:25:02 <gamemanj> and then the "velocity" gets so high that it just acts like a decrement instead of an increment
19:26:30 <gamemanj> there's also a bit where it actually stops sounding like noise
19:26:56 <gamemanj> and then it goes back to being noise again
19:27:21 <gamemanj> course, it's only 0.01 long, so it's just a click before it gets back to being noise-like again
19:28:30 <Jafet> that's just the fractional part of a polynomial, isn't it
19:29:05 <wob_jonas> Jafet: no, it's exponential, sort of like those quadratic recursion random generators
19:29:13 <\oren\> the thing has a cusp when its slope get high wnough
19:30:36 <\oren\> I bet it's something like x+=v;v+=a;x=x%1;
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19:31:40 <\oren\> v is some sort of wraparound int
19:31:59 <\oren\> that would explain why the value suddenly switches direction
19:33:06 <\oren\> in other news, for some reason, yesterday I decided to make a crappy calculator
19:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> just track through how the flac algorithm decodes those bytes
19:39:02 <gamemanj> I mean, you could just look at the code
19:39:10 <gamemanj> the file doesn't even use complicated coefficients,
19:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> also the graph you posted is clearly a smooth curve modulo something
19:40:49 <gamemanj> there's something that looks like a sine wave in it
19:41:27 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: there always is, in a periodic function
19:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> gamemanj, imo try lifting those samples you have to see the underlying curve
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19:45:14 <\oren\> testing this stupid calculator
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19:46:12 <APNG> oh btw anyone wanna try an IRC-based esolang? https://github.com/SoniEx2/CTCP-S/blob/master/ctcp-s.md#sub
19:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but that was fairly clear after the first few failed attempts
19:46:29 <APNG> it should be turing-complete, that is you should be able to write a brainfuck interpreter using CTCP-S SUB
19:46:35 <\oren\> it says "irssi: not enough parameters given"
19:48:12 <APNG> (it's basically a C preprocessor derivative btw)
19:49:26 <gamemanj> wob_jonas: yes, but these are very obvious sine waves: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/butterfly_detail.png
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19:49:47 <\oren\> I think it's occurring in the line that prints the output
19:50:11 <\oren\> $server->command("msg $target ". botscript($message));
19:50:45 <\oren\> that's charapcter number 8
19:51:21 <\oren\> oh, I see, irssi doesn't let me output nothing
19:51:49 <zzo38> The IRC server won't let you to send a blank message, but you can send a message containing only places.
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19:52:35 <DHeadshot> I can get oren banned by sending "❄ocal 4 3+."!
19:53:14 <\oren\> there, a snowman before the actal output
19:53:53 <\oren\> wob_jonas: the bot's trigger character is a snowflake
19:54:54 <\oren\> you neep p to output the anwser
19:55:47 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it operates on bytes
19:57:55 <\oren\> hmm maybe p shuld just be destructive
19:58:32 <wob_jonas> it should print a newline after the number though
20:00:33 <\oren\> hmm I guess d should be dup. but then i dunno about drop
20:00:49 <wob_jonas> \oren\: add an s command, that's enough for dropping
20:01:13 <APNG> \oren\, r for remove?
20:01:44 <wob_jonas> \oren\: or a ! command (as in underload)
20:01:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no, we want dc compatibility :-)
20:02:25 <\oren\> it's not going to be dc compatible if it acts on bytes
20:02:42 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, just similar syntax so it's easy to learn
20:02:58 <\oren\> well for now, y will work
20:03:53 <wob_jonas> ❄ocal 3 9p [maybe just use strings as comments]sk
20:04:02 <\oren\> it doesn't have strings
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20:05:49 <\oren\> it has an @ command however
20:06:07 <\oren\> ❄ocal 1 2 3 4 5 6 3 @ p
20:06:16 <\oren\> ❄ocal 1 2 3 4 5 6 2 @ p
20:06:22 <\oren\> ❄ocal 1 2 3 4 5 6 0 @ p
20:07:20 <\oren\> anyway, the key feature I'm gonna add is the ability to switch the type the calculator acts on
20:07:40 <\oren\> so you could use the D command to switch to doubles
20:08:44 <wob_jonas> ❄ocal 105 73+p156 40+p45 187+p227 27+p109 33+p179 16+p241 61+p56 58+p5 89+p5 86+p168 148+p # expect -78 -60 -24 -2 -114 -61 46 114 94 91 -67 -99
20:08:44 <\oren\> ☃ -78 -60 -24 -2 -114 -61 46 114 94 91 60
20:09:49 <wob_jonas> ❄ocal 153 37-p156 109-p84 183-p166 147-p219 209-p234 189-p57 214-p157 149-p1 134-p27 220-p116 8-p93 255-p # expect 116 47 -99 19 10 45 99 8 123 63 108 94
20:09:49 <\oren\> ☃ -103 -100 84 -90 -37 -22 57 -99 1 27 116 93
20:11:46 <\oren\> ei(*c=='-'){s[0]=-s[0];}
20:12:42 <zzo38> The sandbox capability in Node.js isn't very good but I would suggest other way you can by making a JavaScript library for accessing a JavaScript implementation. (V8 is accessed from C++, but my suggestion is a way to make V8 accessible through JavaScript code too.)
20:13:58 <wob_jonas> \oren\: what other operations do you have?
20:14:58 <zzo38> What would you think of what I wrote about isolated sandbox for JavaScript in JavaScript?
20:15:40 <\oren\> wob_jonas: not much atm, but I'll be adding various types first
20:15:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sandbox implemented in javascript, or a javascript api to the control sandbox?
20:16:45 <zzo38> wob_jonas: A JavaScript API to a JavaScript sandbox
20:17:15 <zzo38> (The API would probably be implemented in C++ because that is what V8 requires)
20:17:37 <zzo38> (And V8 would be used because that is what Node.js uses)
20:17:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: isn't that already implemented in browsers basically, and essentially invokable some combination of frames and some other stuff?
20:18:13 <wob_jonas> or with plugins that let you control the browser from javascript but the pages also have javascript or something
20:18:15 <zzo38> Something like what is in browsers yes, but for Node.js instead of browsers and programmable through JavaScript on the outside too
20:18:35 <zzo38> (Firefox uses XPCOM but that has several problems)
20:19:16 <wob_jonas> \oren\: will you list the operations this supports somewhere?
20:19:57 <\oren\> hmm, I wonder which operations it should support. Maybe I'll just keep it with bytes but support a lot of byte stuff?
20:20:48 <\oren\> the u command will undrop
20:21:38 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/ocal.c.htm
20:27:04 <int-e> so can we hack into \oren\'s machine now
20:27:46 <\oren\> i mean, it would let you look at anything in the ocal process's memory space
20:28:04 <wob_jonas> \oren\: why are you writing the number input routines in such a verbose way?
20:28:20 <\oren\> to avoid growing the stack
20:29:09 <wob_jonas> \oren\: but why not fewer branches instead of repeated code?
20:29:09 <\oren\> i'm doing that char *s=((char*)(&c))+1000; thing again
20:29:59 <\oren\> wob_jonas: oh, because... uh, I dunno
20:30:26 <wob_jonas> like, instead of ei(*c=='1'){s[1]=1;s++;c++;goto bytedecmode;}...ei(*c=='9'){s[1]=9;s++;c++;goto bytedecmode;} just write something like ei('1'<=*c&&*c<='9'){s[1]=c-'0';s++;c++;goto bytedecmode;}
20:36:13 <\oren\> also for some reason chrome thinks I wrote that program in norwegian
20:37:01 <\oren\> is eg and ei words in norwegian?
20:37:48 <\oren\> oh, I bet eg means like an egg
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20:43:02 <\oren\> @ask oerjan are ei and eg words in norwegian, and which one means en:egg?
20:47:10 <int-e> apparently ei is a female article (*one* female) and eg the first-person singular pronoun (I)
20:48:11 <wob_jonas> int-e: Ei still means an egg in German though, doesn't it?
20:50:21 <int-e> wob_jonas: wait, don't you speak German natively? I somehow thought you did.
20:50:46 <int-e> must be one of my usual mixups.
20:50:58 <\oren\> I thought he's from Hungary?
20:52:48 <\oren\> I have no idea why the english word egg has two g's though
20:53:14 <\oren\> eg and egs would work just as well
20:53:15 <wob_jonas> \oren\: because "eg." is already a word
20:54:10 <int-e> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/egg#English ... seems to have two g's in many languages, actually
20:55:01 <int-e> AFAICS "eg." does not exist. "e.g." and "eg" do.
20:57:29 <int-e> extraordinary gullibility
20:57:40 <myname> i am a german native speaker
20:59:10 <quintopia> i wonder what yahoo is planning that they've suddenly shut out all 3rd party apps from using the messenger network
20:59:26 <quintopia> not that anyone used it anyway, but ... did they have some reason to think people will?
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21:08:19 <gamemanj> "eg and egs"...? when'd we move from linguistics to webcomics? Oh, look at the time...*falls asleep on desk*
21:09:20 <int-e> oh god, I remember EGS
21:10:30 <gamemanj> the "oh god" does not sound like a good thing"
21:10:39 <int-e> why isn't there a european DVD version of The Expanse
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21:17:13 <APNG> it's alive! https://is.gd/HQfus8 barely...
21:17:14 <int-e> gamemanj: it's one of those comics that I feel foolish about now, having grown up a little
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21:41:15 <FireFly> 'eg' for 'I' is nynorsk I believe
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21:54:02 <APNG> I can now add commands to it https://is.gd/PNZ1hc
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22:33:53 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( The distance between a point and the origin in n-space divided by the square root of n is equal to the root-mean-square of the values in the point)
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22:54:15 <moonythedwarf> does anyone know a good math expression evalulator (thats a programming library or a program itself)?
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23:44:42 <lambdabot> \oren\ asked 3h 1m 39s ago: are ei and eg words in norwegian, and which one means en:egg?
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23:45:38 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ yes, yes (in nynorsk), neither (en:egg = no:egg)
23:45:57 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ in fact i vaguely recall english borrowed it from us hth
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23:47:22 <oerjan> Mirror movies are more reflective
23:48:51 <oerjan> oh the last two blocks i made are in the same range
23:50:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:199.15.233.152/29]] with an expiry time of 17:07, 1 September 2017 (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
23:55:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:31.184.238.0/24]] with an expiry time of 03:48, 29 August 2017 (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
23:57:01 <oerjan> i'd remove the redundant ones, but that seems spammy
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00:08:48 <hppavilion[1]> This is the second one to do so on this device, and this one is a different brand from the previous one
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00:25:17 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access gu*: No such file or directory
00:25:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49678&oldid=49650 * Tbodt * (+214) /* Introductions */
00:27:25 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ there's a bug so you cannot `revert a new file creation properly hth
00:31:23 * oerjan suddenly gets filled with sadness at having to work around stupid bugs.
00:31:44 <oerjan> on computers, and in real life.
00:31:56 <shachaf> computers have so many bugs
00:32:16 <shachaf> https://danluu.com/everything-is-broken/
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00:46:11 <\oren\> moonythedwarf_: try octave
00:58:28 <oerjan> he waxed, then he waned.
01:07:17 <zzo38> They make modern computer designs too complicated and too much stupid also.
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01:19:36 <oerjan> <\oren\> actually, since my dialect doesn't have t in botLs it should just be boLs <-- sure there's not a glottal stop there?
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01:54:16 <\oren\> oerjan: I'm pretty sure there's no glottal stop. it's more like a d
01:56:39 <oerjan> moonythedwarf_: oh, didn't notice the nicks were different
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01:57:42 <oerjan> \oren\: hm, there's got to be a name for that. lateral stop maybe?
01:59:27 * oerjan found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-stopped_consonant but isn't sure if that's right there
02:03:08 <oerjan> on another site, it's spelled sous
02:04:10 <boily> that's not an easy one...
02:04:38 <oerjan> indeed, i'd never guess it myself *MWAHAHAHA*
02:05:09 <oerjan> (albanian is written with latin alphabet btw)
02:07:24 <boily> one never knows...
02:09:24 <oerjan> nope. at least you're getting onto the right continent.
02:11:25 <oerjan> nope. you haven't got to the right family yet...
02:11:51 <boily> (trying M- languages tonight...)
02:14:10 <oerjan> it's not indian, although it does have some influence.
02:15:01 <oerjan> ("influenced considerably by Sanskrit and Pali")
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02:16:55 <boily> (is it influenced by Sanskrit?)
02:17:54 <oerjan> tocharian is indo-european, which i already implicitly excluded.
02:18:51 <oerjan> it probably was though, "The subject matter of the texts suggests that Tocharian A was more archaic and used as a Buddhist liturgical language"
02:19:42 <oerjan> this language is not extinct btw, it has appr. 16 million speakers.
02:20:44 <oerjan> no, nor any other turkic language.
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02:22:01 <boily> tswellot. heeeeeelp...
02:22:11 <tswett> Quick, think of a rational number which is not of the form x^7 + 3 y^7, where x and y are rational numbers.
02:23:50 <oerjan> boily: no. best guess so far though.
02:24:03 <tswett> How do you write 5 in that form?
02:24:15 <tswett> Oh, I misunderstood your referent.
02:24:44 <oerjan> nope. you still haven't hit the right family.
02:25:35 * boily is trying to remember all the families out there... Sino-Tibetan, Hmong-Mien, Tai-Kadai, Vietic, Austronesian...
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02:27:22 <oerjan> you almost got the right family listed except you chose a wrong subfamily instead.
02:28:30 <oerjan> no. that's austronesian, apparently.
02:29:18 <oerjan> no. you had Tai-Kadai there.
02:30:26 <oerjan> btw it's the official language of a country hth
02:30:58 <oerjan> nope. that seems to be indo-aryan.
02:31:21 <oerjan> also moving in the wrong direction.
02:33:38 <oerjan> doesthiswork: boily is guessing the language of today's porthelloily hth
02:34:57 <boily> (most definitely not influenced by Sanskrit, that one)
02:35:22 <oerjan> nope. that's sino-tibetan.
02:35:40 <boily> (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!)
02:35:46 <oerjan> that's indo-european hth
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02:37:03 <HackEgo> spockers: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:37:10 <oerjan> no, but we've already excluded that too (malayalam)
02:37:27 <boily> maudit est pas facile celle-là à soir...
02:37:29 <oerjan> and i said it wasn't indian.
02:38:16 <boily> wut? Maldivian is Indo-Aryan too?
02:38:47 <oerjan> doesthiswork: i've already mentioned it's not extinct.
02:39:44 * pikhq notes that all Indo-Aryan languages are Indo-European...
02:39:52 <pikhq> Just like all birds are dinosaurs. :)
02:40:07 <oerjan> boily: of the languages you've mentioned, it's also listed as having been influencing/influenced by Thai and Cham hth
02:40:45 <boily> I can't believe I circled that one for so long...
02:41:06 <boily> time to go brush my teeth and approach a pillow.
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02:46:23 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/HpSEgdQWaS0
03:19:30 * Sgeo was expecting Evillious Chronicals. I don't know what your link is
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05:37:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49679&oldid=46761 * Oerjan * (-30) /* Documentation */ Add edit by [[User:Tbodt]] caught in filter
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08:14:53 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 48.42 3874 nuke
08:14:53 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 4009.49978652771
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11:28:25 <HackEgo> oren's font//\oren\'s font is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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13:43:25 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like long meetings?
13:43:25 <fungot> b_jonas: p and i are in completely different places in the struct?' i could use a fnord and helpful way?
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14:46:36 <APNG> so let's say I'm making an esolang
14:46:41 <APNG> which I am btw http://play.integer32.com/?gist=0c1b45a0a7f88b2efae29d266f9ccfe8&version=stable&backtrace=2
14:46:52 <APNG> so let's say idk how the thing I'm making actually works
14:47:04 <APNG> I know how to make an infinite loop, or loop twice
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14:47:24 <APNG> but how do I loop 3 times? 4 times? 10 times?
14:47:25 <myname> make an article, some of the hardcore nerds will figure stuff out
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14:47:42 <APNG> n times? not that the thing has any numbers...
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15:32:26 <b_jonas> Ok, so Knuth has updated the prediction on his homepage, so volume 5 of TAOCP is now "Estimated to be ready in 2025." rather than in 2020 as he's predicted before.
15:32:53 <b_jonas> According to the archive.org wayback machine, this change has happened between 2015-11 and 2016-01.
15:34:23 <gamemanj> that sounds like one big revision
15:34:41 <b_jonas> The page is http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/taocp.html
15:35:08 <b_jonas> And it doesn't have any prediction on when the revised volumes 1' to 3' are going to be ready.
15:36:35 <b_jonas> gamemanj: actually TAOCP is now sort of numbered wrong, since volume 4A is published, it's as thick as any of the first three volumes, but the topics professor Knuth originally wanted in volume 4 don't fit in it,
15:36:50 <gamemanj> you know, I highly suspect we may need to invent immortality...
15:36:52 <b_jonas> so he's splitting it to at least two volumes, so there'll be a volume 4B and possibly more.
15:37:06 <gamemanj> ...we definitely need to invent immortality...
15:37:19 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, or at least longevity. Knuth is definitely one of those people for whom it would be worth.
15:37:25 <Jafet> eventually volumes 6-7 will return to the original goal of describing compilers
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15:37:56 <b_jonas> like, if I get my hands on very few doses of an extremely rare longevity serum, professor Knuth would be high on the list for who to give it.
15:38:37 <Jafet> it's ok, we'll learn in nine years that DEK was a collective pseudonym
15:38:42 <b_jonas> Jafet: Knuth's words on that is "And after Volumes 1--5 are done, God willing, I plan to publish Volume 6 (the theory of context-free languages) and Volume 7 (Compiler techniques), but only if the things I want to say about those topics are still relevant and still haven't been said. Volumes 1--5 represent the central core of computer programming for sequential machines; the subjects of Volumes 6 and 7 are important but more specialized."
15:39:10 <b_jonas> he's a single genius mathematician
15:42:16 <Jafet> hmm, volume 5 will cover string algorithms
15:42:57 <Jafet> knuth may want to avoid unhealthy foods like pizza and chilli when writing that
15:43:37 <Jafet> or he'll never finish it
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15:56:50 <gamemanj> Warning. Readers of the above b_jonas text may find a contradiction, but it's because of other meanings of the word "single".
15:57:13 <gamemanj> Thus, any advisory on the contradiction does not apply.
15:57:22 <Jafet> (er, pizza and chili)
16:16:26 <izabera> the git book is 33 pages shorter than harry potter and the deathly hallows
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16:53:56 * oerjan finds today's xkcd disturbing
16:56:00 <\oren\> gamemanj: your warning was helpful as I upscrolled
16:56:29 <oerjan> <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 48.42 3874 nuke <-- disappointingly nondestructive tdnh
16:56:42 <gamemanj> "disappointingly nondestructive"?
16:56:50 <gamemanj> ...are you working on mad science experiments?
16:56:59 <\oren\> oerjan: it refers to a nuclear thermal rocket in KSP
16:57:55 <oerjan> . o O ( your attempts to predict ksp behavior are futile... )
16:58:14 <gamemanj> . o O ( KSP would make a good pseudo-random number generator )
16:58:50 <\oren\> oerjan: specifically, I had a SSTO that was 48.42 tons in orbit, and had 3874 fuel to use, with its nuclear engines
16:59:41 <\oren\> basically that command is just an implementation of Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation
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17:02:50 <gamemanj> "Operating Kerbals Are Yummy?"
17:03:51 <oerjan> . o O ( one day i'll kick gamemanj in all caps. he'll never understand what happened. )
17:06:00 <gamemanj> "Karmic Integrators Concerning Kodak's Systems"?
17:07:20 * gamemanj lightly TAPS oerjan on the head with a piece of cardboard.
17:08:09 <gamemanj> The only reason I was de-mystifying OKAY was because it didn't seem like you were annoyed, but you were using caps.
17:08:32 <gamemanj> See, this is the kind of ambiguity I'm talking about...
17:08:47 <oerjan> i don't see what OKAY has to do with annoyance.
17:09:32 <gamemanj> like, if I were to go on a long-ish lecture about ambiguity, and how it is a rather painful thing in the English language,
17:09:54 <gamemanj> and how, for example, it would be great if someone were to somehow remove the ambiguity in the English language while still keeping it English,
17:10:20 <gamemanj> or at least relatively so, then for example you could shout OKAY while I am busy typing this rant, however, you may not,
17:12:03 <gamemanj> I was going to keep going until oerjan got annoyed and performed a perfect demonstration, but that works too.
17:12:18 <oerjan> i think you fail to get that i use capitals for sarcasm hth
17:12:35 <\oren\> that is one of like 10 words I know in french
17:12:53 <oerjan> \oren\: i think you need an apostrophe hth
17:13:12 <gamemanj> It looks kind of apostrophe-needed-y.
17:15:57 <\oren\> Ooh, there should be a command like metar but gives the weather in emoji
17:17:47 <lambdabot> 3NvA 021550z 31003x7 9999 phe\/\/026T(u scT050 8kn070 14/08 Q1008 n05i9 Rmk wInD 670ph7 vR801Kt
17:18:05 <oerjan> not aware of an emoji plugin, alas
17:33:49 <oerjan> @tell jafet <Jafet> (er, pizza and chili) <-- chilli seems to be an acceptable spelling hth
17:38:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:46.185.122.160]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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18:22:17 <int-e> inetnum: 46.185.64.0 - 46.185.127.255
18:22:17 <int-e> netname: KYIVSTAR-NET-9
18:22:17 <int-e> descr: Kyivstar GSM
18:22:17 <int-e> descr: Ukrainian mobile phone operator
18:22:47 <oerjan> i don't do range block until i see at least two ips from there...
18:23:07 <oerjan> also, the block log doesn't seem to allow searching for ranges :(
18:23:30 <oerjan> well, that range is probably too large, anyway.
18:23:34 <int-e> yeah I was just suggesting that I wouldn't be very optimistic about that particular block
18:24:12 <oerjan> int-e: today's girl genius is quite informative, especially to people with previous theories hth
18:25:47 <oerjan> i doubt i will be keeping up this reading through all the abuse filter log. the system needs some tweaking...
18:26:22 <oerjan> (of the kind only fizzie can do, i suspect)
18:27:09 <int-e> I'm just confused.
18:27:32 <int-e> I have enough trouble keeping up with GG's present... never mind the past.
18:28:30 <int-e> also, workshops next week, three talks, kind of occupying my brain
18:32:34 <oerjan> int-e: everything i've seen so far fits very well with higgs being the "seventh" http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20120516
18:35:02 <oerjan> especially after agatha met jenka recently.
18:35:26 <int-e> the seventh, no, that didn't stick to my mind.
18:35:48 <int-e> is Krosp stuck in Mechanicsburg as well?
18:36:38 <oerjan> no, he's out leading bears
18:37:27 <oerjan> (jenka not only mentioning the "spymaster", but also proving that jägers don't have to look like jägers)
18:42:27 <oerjan> . o O ( funny how i can remember things like this and yet forget stupid things like to brush my teeth... )
18:43:22 <oerjan> . o O ( hm which i indeed haven't done yet... )
18:45:19 <gamemanj> oerjan: Short term, long term.
18:57:50 <gamemanj> either that or Actively Learning Artificial System
18:58:55 <int-e> http://www.surlyqueen.net/loas/2016/09/01/714-chef/ ... so awful puns ... cannot look away!
19:02:08 <int-e> schlockmercenary is heading seems to aim for some spectacular fireworks on Sunday (again)
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19:17:16 <APNG> gamemanj, hey wanna see my bad code?
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19:39:13 <hppavilion[1]> Four people in the Minnesota have been found guilty of conspiring to travel to the Middle East and support ISIS
19:39:42 <hppavilion[1]> They're considering whether they can put them in programs to "deradicalize" them
19:40:47 <APNG> yay conversion therapy ಠ_ಠ
19:41:47 <APNG> in other news, `cargo install prexcl` to install a silly IR/IL thingy https://crates.io/crates/prexcl/
19:42:08 <APNG> it's very badly written https://bitbucket.org/SoniEx2/prexcl/commits/0719a787a321f503fb0f93c85ba9d2ae33a4d2b2?at=master
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21:21:26 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember reading about a cellular automaton that models how neighborhoods tend towards homogeneous race, even in a racism-free society
21:24:45 <hppavilion[1]> Something about how, even if you don't really care about race, if you're black and all of your neighbors are white or if you're white and all of your neighbors are black, you'll feel a bit out of place and be more likely to move away to a neighborhood with more people of the same race
21:25:16 <hppavilion[1]> And how that statistically results in self-segregated neighborhoods
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22:03:08 <hppavilion[1]> It could be used to solve NP problems in polynomial time
22:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, "receive answer from future. Check answer. If correct, send to past at end of 5 minutes. If incorrect, send different answer (Successor of the answer, perhaps)
22:04:34 <hppavilion[1]> If stable time loops are possible (and self-contradicting time loops are impossible), then this guarantees that you will always receive the correct answer in polynomial time
22:05:18 <myname> hppavilion[1]: have a look at p/poly
22:05:32 <myname> that's basically what you described
22:05:44 <hppavilion[1]> (Really, any problem that can be checked in O(k) can be solved in O(k) using a stable time loop; in fact, I think that you receive the answer in O(1) time, but you still have to check)
22:05:48 <myname> without time constraints, though
22:06:07 <myname> also, the esolang twoducks is related
22:06:16 <myname> it can even solve the halting problem
22:07:11 <hppavilion[1]> Quantum Computers don't store quantumly on disk, do they?
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22:31:06 <shachaf> copumpkin: did you order the book twh
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23:18:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AshuraTheHedgehog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49680&oldid=49093 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (+0) /* Instructions */ fixed
23:18:53 <\oren\> Jeremy Corbyn claims that having beers after work is sexist. How about beers DURING work?
23:20:31 <boily> he\\oren\. I had a beer during work today. it wasn't sexist.
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23:39:03 <oerjan> bohily. you're lucky to live in a country/province where that's acceptable, i suspect.
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23:40:16 <oerjan> i don't think there are many places in norway where it is. or sweden. stereotypically, denmark is different.
23:40:36 <boily> every Friday a pair of volunteers go to the dépanneur and grab two 12-packs. at 4:00pm, we drink a beer. very important tradition.
23:41:46 <oerjan> arabic? (but wouldn't that be salaam ...)
23:42:25 <oerjan> some other semitic or... hm, somali?
23:47:27 <boily> it's the squished version of "me ma wo adwoerjan" hth.
23:48:48 <oerjan> well that looks mostly monosyllabic. chinese?
23:49:06 <oerjan> except adwo doesn't work.
23:49:29 <boily> far from any variation on Chinese.
23:49:45 <boily> Somali wasn't too too far.
23:50:43 <oerjan> ethiopian (wait, is that even a language name)
23:51:07 * oerjan may be over his head today
23:51:35 <boily> it's a group → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Semitic_languages
23:51:59 <boily> think African west coast.
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23:52:55 <oerjan> ghanese, is that something?
23:53:51 <oerjan> hm what's that thing youssoun dor [sp] sings...
23:54:16 <boily> Ghana is where it's spoken.
23:54:23 <oerjan> my memory won't even remember that...
23:54:31 <hppavilion[1]> While I am a fan of (or at least ambivalent to) emoji, they are not meant to be used as words, they are meant to be used to convey emotions (and, to a lesser extent, high-level ideas)
23:55:01 <hppavilion[1]> Don't write "I'm too [scared emoji] to go in there"
23:55:03 <oerjan> . o O ( /cs quiet hppavilion[1] )
23:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> Write "I'm too scared to go in there [scared emoji]"
23:55:57 <oerjan> boily: i cannot remember... oh wait, wolof it was
23:56:12 <oerjan> if that's not it, then i'm out of names i think
23:56:50 <boily> it's shorter than wolof, but it has a "w".
23:56:57 <HackEgo> U+1F335 CACTUS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c b5 UTF-16BE: d83cdf35 Decimal: 🌵 \ 🌵 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
23:57:29 <oerjan> wadi, or is that just an arabic word...
23:57:38 <oerjan> (which popped up for some reason)
23:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( If there were (ocean (or space)) pirates today, what would their slang be like? )
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23:57:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: somali hth
23:58:03 <boily> wadi is Arabic for "river" hth.
23:58:10 <boily> oerjan: do you want the solution?
23:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> (I've heard it said that "Internet pirates don't have ships". I happen to know someone who frequently pirates movies and owns a boat.)
23:59:33 <oerjan> boily: well the only other options are cheating or making up words, so...
00:00:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: but does he pirate movies from his boat
00:00:33 <oerjan> boily: (that means yes)
00:00:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Not usually, no, but he would if he had WiFi on it
00:01:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: today's linguistic porthello hth
00:02:08 <oerjan> scott aaronson finally posting again
00:02:26 <boily> apparently it has the [ɥ] phoneme. it's a good phoneme.
00:02:30 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( Are there any bots here that could be made to play the "Who/what am I?" game? )
00:02:34 <boily> who's scott aaronson?
00:02:41 <boily> hppavilion[1]: there are.
00:02:51 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i printed and bound a copy of a networking book for fnord..
00:03:42 <oerjan> boily: mathematician doing things like studying quantum computation and blogging http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/
00:03:54 <boily> hppavilion[1]: can't remember, but there are 20-questions-like bots out there.
00:04:13 <boily> hppavilion[1]: e.g. https://github.com/rawsonj/triviabot
00:04:42 <boily> fungot: do you have non-trivial zeroes?
00:04:42 <fungot> boily: there might be small differences in " alla ska tala bra svenska", as i write the gui using qt and do the longjmp atomically. if you
00:05:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i recall old #initgame at EFNet had such a game, although it didn't use a bot.
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00:05:41 <oerjan> not sure if it still exists
00:05:50 <oerjan> (that was back in 1990s)
00:07:57 <oerjan> fungot: din svenska er riktigt bra tdh
00:07:57 <fungot> oerjan: you always want to declare the equivalent of /dev/ hda is a different bot.
00:08:09 <oerjan> better than mine, anyway
00:08:46 <oerjan> hm it must have been before 1996
00:08:47 <boily> fungot: c'est quoi un "alla ska tala bra svenska"? ça sonne louche.
00:08:47 <fungot> boily: firebird has an extension to the reals must be isomorphic to peano numbers. to represent inexacts.
00:09:15 <shachaf> that's what i get for looking at a line of irc without looking at who wrote it
00:10:26 <shachaf> oerjan: i tried to make sense of fungotese tdnh
00:10:26 <fungot> shachaf: see cluelessness in a lesser state:
00:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> "Hitler often doubted whether Czechs were Aryan or not" -- Wikipedia
00:12:04 <hppavilion[1]> "The question of whether Italians were Aryan enough was questioned by the Nazi racial theorists."
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00:58:42 <Zarutian> I take as granted that people here have seen SmallTalk80|Squeak blocks, yes?
00:59:55 <zzo38> http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/dissertation/html/wheeler-trusting-trust-ddc.html I look at this a bit (haven't read it entirely, yet), and actually even before looking at that document and hearing/reading the issues involved, I have thought of other ways. Such as, write a BASIC interpreter in C and a C compiler in BASIC; and possibly, make a program that does not actually produce an executable but instead something else such as writing the
01:00:46 <Zarutian> zzo38: your message got cut off at: else such as writing the
01:01:12 <zzo38> nstead something else such as writing the file out backwards
01:02:47 <oerjan> Zarutian: at least ais523 must, since Feather is supposed to be based on smalltalk
01:03:29 <Zarutian> zzo38: well another way is to do an Initial Program Load by hand and load in a Forth. Then use that to load a small C compiler written in Forth. Then use that C compiler to compile a bigger one.
01:04:24 <Zarutian> oerjan: I took me a while to notice that there were no control flow statements in that Smalltalk at all.
01:04:31 <HackEgo> alpha//Alpha is the numeric measurement of opaqueness, a dog with unusually high voice in the Disney-Pixar Up film, and a NATO phonetic alphabet letteral.
01:04:33 <HackEgo> tadpole//A tadpole is like a flagpole, but underwater.
01:04:33 <HackEgo> studie//Studies show lots of things. Nobody reads them, though. Also: this study contradicts this other study.
01:04:33 <HackEgo> drone//drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
01:04:34 <HackEgo> at//At is a daemon for procrastinating commands.
01:04:58 <prooftechnique> I'm almost certain that a tadpole is just a shorter pole
01:05:19 <zzo38> Zarutian: Yes, there is another, like that.
01:06:13 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i don't understand the question hth
01:06:57 <zzo38> They mention hardware stuff too in that document. I have actually thought of such things before, and try to think of if there are ways that compatible computer systems can be built out of parts by throwing dice to decide how to do it, somehow.
01:06:58 <oerjan> `slwd tadpole//s/.$/, and also a tad shorter./
01:06:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/tadpole//A tadpole is like a flagpole, but underwater, and also a tad shorter.
01:07:30 <prooftechnique> oerjan: Kiflom is a greeting and general exclamation used by fictional cultists in Grand Theft Auto. I was curious if your response to "good afternoerjan" was a reference to that. It seems that it wasn't, so now I'm left curious about it.
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01:07:57 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i was just doing some obvious mangling of shachaf and shalom hth
01:07:59 <zzo38> With FPGAs, there is IceStorm for one thing, at least.
01:09:15 <Zarutian> re the smalltalk blocks: structurally it is basically an sequence of invocations plus the arg vars defined between ||'s at the start of the block
01:10:09 <Zarutian> (smalltalk blocks looked like [ | varA breyta2 | ble doIt: varA ; ble doIt: breyta2 ] )
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01:14:03 <Zarutian> zzo38: the real question is, how did the compiler sabetour get access to the compiler binary?
01:14:37 <Zarutian> (on the machine where it is used and not necsirarly where it was produced)
01:15:20 <zzo38> O, yes, there is that too
01:21:39 <Zarutian> access control in computers (where the subjects are processes and the objects are various stuff that needs to be accessible to some but perhaps not all subjects) is something I have looked into rather extensively
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01:27:19 <quintopia> smalltalk is great. i dont know why it never really caught on
01:28:02 <quintopia> imagine a world where a type of smalltalk was used everywhere java is now
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01:35:20 <hppavilion[1]> Does the singer receive- in total- 1 partridge in a pear tree, two turtle doves, three french hens, 4 calling birsd, 5 golden rings, 6 geese a-laying, 7 swans a-swimming, 8 maids a-milking, 9 ladies dancing, 10 lords a-leaping, 11 pipers piping, and 12 drummers drumming
01:38:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: 12 partridges, 22 turtle doves, 30 french hens, 36 calling birds, 40 golden rings, 42 geese, 42 swans, 40 maids, 36 ladies... wait, isn't that the wrong order
01:39:44 <shachaf> oerjan: something seems wrong there hth
01:40:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i've been mixing up the last four :(
01:40:38 <hppavilion[1]> Or 12 partridges in 12 pear trees, 22 turtle doves, 30 french hens, 36 calling birds, 40 golen rings, 42(!!!) swans a-swimming, 40 maids a-milking, 36 ladies dancing, 30 lords a-leaping, 22 pipers piping, 12 drummers drumming?
01:40:41 <shachaf> did you see https://twitter.com/luqui/status/770725569151447041
01:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, oerjan beat me, but I wasn't going to give up on my typing
01:41:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you also forgot the geese hth
01:41:37 <shachaf> oerjan: fortunately you're a geeser
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01:42:00 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘!!’ (imported from Data.List)
01:42:07 <shachaf> maybe i shouldn't make fun of oerjan's age
01:42:36 <oerjan> it's illogical since i'm not 42 anymore hth
01:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> Totals at 376 (364 if you consider "partridge in a pear tree" to be a single gift, but it's clearly two separate gifts)
01:44:56 <shachaf> a partridge in a pear tree is one gift
01:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> Is there any mathematical significance to 364(+1=365)?
01:45:17 <hppavilion[1]> No, it's two- the partridge and pear tree are two separate items, they're just bundled into one
01:45:31 <oerjan> just be glad the pears are not in season or you'd have to count them hth
01:45:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Is this going to be one of those things that can trigger flame wars like "couple" or "."?
01:45:40 <shachaf> > sum [i*(12-i) | i <- [1..12]]
01:45:57 <shachaf> > sum [i*(13-i) | i <- [1..12]]
01:46:07 <shachaf> spot of the convolution, governor?
01:46:07 <deltab> how are they separate if they're bundled?
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01:46:32 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: They come together, but you could regift the Partridge and Pear Tree to different people
01:46:34 <oerjan> it's certainly convoluted.
01:48:52 <hppavilion[1]> ...huh, the "5 gold rings" might actually be a type of bird (a "ring-necked pheasant")
01:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> They have been gearing up for war with Turkey for the last 8 months
01:50:41 <moonythedwarf> i wonder how useful a pair of 10D scissors would be
01:51:01 <hppavilion[1]> moonythedwarf: There are different types of scissors!?
01:51:47 <moonythedwarf> you know, *holds up a 4 dimensional pair, and snips hppavilion[1]'s day in half with it*, like those
01:54:39 <hppavilion[1]> I was suggested "bleeding on the 18th day of menstrual cycle"
01:54:48 <hppavilion[1]> Please see a doctor if you ever consider googling that.
01:54:50 <zzo38> It is not supposed to be "4 calling birds", it is supposed to be "colly birds" (black), and there is twelve lords leaping, and the rings are actual rings and not birds.
01:56:13 <oerjan> zzo38: oh you've also heard the lords last?
01:56:24 <oerjan> hm i guess it's just one of the variations, then.
01:56:26 <zzo38> Yes, it is supposed to be twelve
01:57:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, the last four can be rearranged however you wnat
01:57:47 <hppavilion[1]> Ooh, 12 = "bells a-ringing" 11 = "ladies spinning" is a nice combo
01:58:20 <zzo38> Twelve lords is the proper way. Ten lords is a very common varation.
01:58:22 <APNG> making an esolang is impossible when you can't get any feedback >.>
02:00:09 <zzo38> Well, they are wrong; it is supposed to be twelve.
02:00:47 <oerjan> APNG: people have seen so many lousy esolangs that you have to explain why your language is more interesting than average before they bother to look hth
02:01:23 <APNG> oerjan, its goal is to become an IR or IL for my 'real' language
02:01:24 * oerjan isn't looking too often these days, either.
02:02:32 <APNG> I only call it an esolang because it's not meant to be used directly
02:03:22 <APNG> even I don't know how to use it, personally .-.
02:03:31 <APNG> altho it's in a really unfinished state I guess...
02:05:16 <APNG> https://bitbucket.org/SoniEx2/prexcl
02:05:23 <APNG> "Prexcl is an esoteric proof-of-concept programming language. It's being used to test some concepts for Voxcl."
02:06:31 <APNG> it's line-based too so that makes it a pain to REPL :/
02:07:00 <APNG> (would love to REPL it)
02:08:36 <zzo38> Voxcl is what anyways?
02:09:13 <hppavilion[1]> "On the 47th day of Christmas stderr gave to me: G"
02:12:01 <hppavilion[1]> "On the 404th day of christmas my browser gave to me: ε"
02:12:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Who decides what's the proper way and what's a variation?
02:12:46 <oerjan> zzo38: you seem to be arguing for wikipedia's 1780 version; note that it did not have the modern melody.
02:13:30 <oerjan> the first instance of the modern melody had lords 10th.
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02:19:23 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: a wedding ring obviously
02:19:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, a wedding ring is the level up from a purity ring
02:19:54 <APNG> zzo38, the other language I'm making, for use by humans
02:19:55 <hppavilion[1]> Purity ring is "promising to remain abstinent until marriage"
02:19:59 <APNG> general-purpose-ish
02:20:06 <APNG> mostly oriented towards autistic ppl
02:20:14 <APNG> (such as myself)
02:20:36 <oerjan> there are programming languages _not_ oriented toward autistic people?
02:21:18 <APNG> the C preprocessor
02:22:03 <APNG> hppavilion[1], huh?
02:22:17 <APNG> so it's not this you wanna know about? http://jhnet.co.uk/articles/cpp_magic
02:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> (And let's be honest, I'll probably be spectrum again in the DSM VI because someone's probably going to protest the change)
02:23:04 <APNG> hppavilion[1], what change?
02:23:25 <hppavilion[1]> APNG: The DSM-V reclassified Asperger's as not autism
02:24:11 <APNG> uh, last I checked the DSM-V removed asperger's diagnosis and made autism include what was previously asperger's
02:25:19 <APNG> hppavilion[1], so uh random question do you stim often?
02:26:39 <APNG> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimming
02:27:17 <APNG> I love sound stims btw
02:27:32 <hppavilion[1]> Knuckle cracking may count; I do it pretty much obsessively (often only a few minutes after I've already done it, thus meaning there's no result)
02:28:16 <oerjan> . o O ( hm is that why i keep chewing my tongue )
02:28:49 <APNG> hppavilion[1], lojban?
02:28:59 <APNG> hppavilion[1], uh, well
02:29:05 <APNG> I'm not sure if you can call voxcl a "language"
02:29:10 <hppavilion[1]> APNG: It's a spoken language designed to be 100% unambiguous
02:30:56 <APNG> hppavilion[1], yes, for use by humans
02:31:15 <APNG> it's similar to piet
02:31:18 <APNG> but user friendly
02:32:40 <APNG> (voxcl is, at least... prexcl is uh... definitely not...)
02:33:06 <APNG> (at least not in its current form)
02:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> "The first rule of time travel is that any and all modifications made to the timeline result in Hitler winning World War II. Run over a hippy in 1968? Hitler wins."
02:41:06 <APNG> hppavilion[1], I'll need testers for it too :P
02:41:25 <APNG> but if I get prexcl functional enough, it'll be much easier to develop voxcl
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03:02:08 <lambdabot> (-1.8842672676782886) :+ (-2.5137902189812014)
03:04:41 <moonythedwarf> looks like my bot at least knows better formatting :P
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03:43:17 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 17.65 832 nuke
03:43:17 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 2109.44126407687
03:50:53 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_budget_film is one thing
03:55:26 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: that would I guess be a film where people are actively taking money from you because you're making it
03:56:01 <hppavilion[1]> Though you could also make profit via negative remuneration
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04:08:06 <shachaf> \oren\: a budget is how much you spend, not how much people give you, i think
04:08:26 <shachaf> so it's a movie where people give you money to make it. seems reasonable.
04:10:39 <hppavilion[1]> How does one indicate that an equation is to be yelled?
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04:14:58 <zzo38> By specifying "yell" on it. How this is done it depend on the context
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04:29:28 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, FireFly is freenode/staff?
04:30:52 <FireFly> Only since fairly recently, though
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04:33:18 <FireFly> Yes, but deceivingly using f as the separator
04:33:23 <shachaf> i guess freenode decided to HireFly
04:35:27 <shachaf> i'm guessing they're not paying you, though
04:37:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Would "Bands with Other Bandits" be a good ability?
04:38:30 <FireFly> yeah, it's just volunteer stuff I guess
04:38:36 <shachaf> i would HireFly at that price
04:39:53 <FireFly> bit of everything, though most of it is "support"-style stuff
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04:48:00 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
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05:06:52 <oerjan> . o O ( this is a fiendish plot to avoid my swattings )
05:07:43 <oerjan> shachaf: getting staffed hth
05:08:03 <shachaf> Wait, getting staffed lets you avoid swatting?
05:08:20 <shachaf> Hmm, FireFly is an op in here now.
05:10:51 <shachaf> 5 freenode-staff +AFRefiorstv [modified 4y 11w 2d ago]
05:11:30 <oerjan> does that really work?
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05:11:40 <shachaf> If not, why is it in there?
05:11:46 <oerjan> well it's not his account name is it
05:12:13 <shachaf> Oh, I figured it was special somehow.
05:12:14 <oerjan> shachaf: because of freenode's policy of putting lapsed founderships there
05:12:24 <oerjan> it's been there for a long time
05:12:37 <oerjan> since andreou got deregistered, maybe
05:14:59 <oerjan> of course, i don't know what powers arbitrary staff has
05:15:22 <oerjan> perhaps he can just tell chanserv to op him anywhere
05:16:01 <shachaf> Maybe he can do that but he isn't supposed to unless a channel has freenode-staff in the op list.
05:16:28 <oerjan> i'm skeptical that it matters.
05:16:46 <shachaf> maybe you should swat him and see what happens hth
05:16:59 <shachaf> what do you think about fft
05:17:22 <oerjan> it's fast, it's furry, it's transformational.
05:17:59 <shachaf> I went to conal's talk about it the other day: http://conal.net/talks/generic-fft.pdf
05:18:37 <shachaf> But maybe I don't fully understand it.
05:19:04 * oerjan doesn't really know what the trick is, he just knows fourier transforms in general. and has forgotten most of the proof details.
05:19:14 <shachaf> What do you do if you want to do FFT of a prime size?
05:20:00 <oerjan> fourier transforms work in any locally compact abelian group.
05:20:25 <shachaf> oerjan: The trick seems to be that if you do an FFT of size N*M, you can do a nested FFT of size M and N.
05:20:32 <shachaf> But a bunch of things cancel out so you can do less work.
05:21:03 <oerjan> well that's just taking product of groups
05:21:18 <oerjan> assuming M and N are relatively prime
05:21:46 <shachaf> Though there's a special version that uses relatively prime M and N.
05:21:58 <shachaf> But often people use a power of 2, and one of M or N is 2.
05:23:33 <zzo38> shachaf: There is no "Bandit" subtype I think?
05:23:42 <shachaf> zzo38: That's true, but there is a Bandit card.
05:23:47 <shachaf> So they could probably add the subtype.
05:23:56 <zzo38> If such a subtype is added, then, possibly (if the card to surround might help)
05:24:12 <shachaf> Or they could add a Bandit supertype.
05:24:52 <zzo38> Neither seems needed to me actually
05:25:06 <shachaf> I guess they could just add a Bandit type, in that case.
05:25:19 <zzo38> That also doesn't seem right
05:25:30 <zzo38> Subtype would be best if they were to add it at all.
05:28:20 <zzo38> Other kind of idea can be "bands with other creatures with bands with other"
05:40:45 <zzo38> Another thing to write might be "Whenever an object is countered, put a +1/+1 counter on ~."
05:55:31 <zzo38> Please review this code tell me if you see anything wrong or whatever else http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/artifact/890c961cedf74de7
05:56:02 <zzo38> For plain text download is http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/raw/tavernc-parser.c?name=890c961cedf74de7997707e7899fe6d3eb5cc5c5
06:06:16 <zzo38> It is better than Git
06:27:24 <zzo38> The program is a single file and the commands are simpler too, and it work better for "cathedral" style project, and it is just better the way I work
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06:42:10 <zzo38> Also, it can use SQL for ticket queries.
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06:49:32 <zzo38> I did find a list of what disadvantages people mentioned about Fossil, but it is from six years ago, some of the things mentioned there are no longer true, and some are actually advantages to me. Specifically, the ticketing system using SQL is good, and lacking a rich text editor is also good. "The lack of deleting anything" and "No versioning of Fossil itself" are mentioned, but are no longer true.
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07:51:22 <izabera> i downloaded a movie and the video quality is perfect and the audio is fine too, but the audio track is slightly slower than the video
07:51:48 <izabera> like, after 1 hour or so the audio comes 2s sooner than it should
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09:28:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49681&oldid=49678 * Qwerp-Derp * (+233)
09:29:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logicode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49682 * Qwerp-Derp * (+2924) Added Logicode page
09:29:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49683&oldid=49649 * Qwerp-Derp * (+15) Added Logicode.
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11:52:02 <FireFly> <shachaf> Maybe he can do that but he isn't supposed to unless a channel has freenode-staff in the op list ← freenode-staff is on the ACL because it's the dummy account used for 'successor' for single-# (on-topic) channels
11:52:36 <shachaf> Maybe you need to shut this channel down now?
11:52:50 <FireFly> though incidentally there *is* an ACL entry that is supposed to indicate "it's fine if staff helps us deal with spam", but it's *@freenode/staff/*
11:53:06 <shachaf> Ah, that must be what I was thinking of.
11:53:13 <FireFly> shachaf: not really, and I'm sure it's plenty official as a channel for esoteric.org
11:53:15 <shachaf> I've seen channels that did that.
11:53:26 <FireFly> I mean, official enough, that is
11:53:30 <shachaf> http://esoteric.org/ looks very official
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13:42:42 <int-e> so how did #esoteric survive anyway?
13:45:29 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal hmm, #esocrypt... not even the founder is there anymore.
14:10:11 <izabera> is there a unicode character that's 2 columns wide and it looks like a circle?
14:11:09 <izabera> i tried with () but it doesn't really look like a circle and it's hollow
14:13:43 <izabera> my font doesn't have it :(
14:14:24 <FireFly> You could also use a fullwidth O if you don't mind being very semantically incorrect
14:45:52 <HackEgo> [U+3020 POSTAL MARK FACE]
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17:06:48 <\oren\> izabera: you're thinking of 〇
17:07:51 <izabera> i wanted to make a ncurses goban but it's clearly impossible with custom fonts
17:09:36 <\oren\> there are lots of characters that are circles with somehting inside
17:10:30 <\oren\> as well as ones for every jamo
17:16:29 <FireFly> izabera: apparently you're supposed to use ⚆ ⚇ ⚈ ⚉ http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2600.pdf
17:16:54 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2016-09-03_181646.png
17:30:51 <izabera> i have no idea what "go markers" are
17:32:31 <izabera> FireFly: i thought you played go?
17:33:53 <FireFly> izabera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)#Notation_and_recording_games based on this it seems it's used for kifus or something
17:34:05 <FireFly> But I dunno what the dots are supposed to be for
17:34:57 <izabera> o.o kifus don't have stones
17:35:02 <izabera> they only have move numbers
17:35:37 <izabera> http://www.asahi.com/igo/photogallery/image/TKY200609210129.jpg
17:43:21 <int-e> is that a sealed move?
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18:11:53 <fizzie> izabera: FireFly: There's a thread on the Unicode mailing list about that: http://unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2016-March/003412.html
18:14:05 <fizzie> There's a few pointers to examples of use, e.g. http://library.msri.org/books/Book29/files/kim.pdf (diagram in chapter 4)
18:16:17 <fizzie> Though the actual answer seems to be that they just got dragged along by something called the "STIX (font) project", the records of which don't happen to mention where they came from.
18:16:53 <fizzie> Or something like that, anyway.
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18:52:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ps4star * New user account
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19:17:50 <APNG> hey look https://bitbucket.org/SoniEx2/prexcl/src/1cbfca8c3a31/if.prexcl?at=master
19:17:55 <APNG> I haz conditionals
19:39:11 <int-e> I'm provisionally appalled.
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20:45:26 <moonythedwarf_> In you all's opinion, whats the optimal precision a calculator should have (in digits)
20:46:48 <moonythedwarf_> even for one that does algebra and allows function definitions?
20:47:29 <int-e> in that case what do you need numbers for?
20:47:54 <int-e> but basically I don't think that there is any such optimum
20:48:13 <moonythedwarf_> so this: [02:27.19] <moonythedwarf_> ~>solve math.js 3600/60/60 # Accuracy check
20:48:13 <moonythedwarf_> [02:28.14] <moonythedwarf_> ~>solve math.js sin(3600)/60/60 # Accuracy check
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21:16:27 <fizzie> Hm. When I press tab in python-mode, the status line just says "Wrong type argument: number-or-marker-p, nil", and doesn't indent anything. That's not optimal.
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23:24:46 <oerjan> @tell ais523 i notice that two more users have managed to perform the procedure, but am disturbed that one of them failed to resubmit the page creation that required it.
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23:26:33 <oerjan> @tell fizzie i notice that two more users have managed to perform the new procedure today, but am disturbed that one of them failed to resubmit the page creation that required it. there _really_ needs to be some adjustment and i don't think it can be done purely through the filters.
23:29:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Simplified Circuit Diagram]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49684 * Oerjan * (+2857) Page creation by [[User:Ps4star]] that was caught in the spam filter. Our new procedure really needs some adjustment...
23:38:54 <FireFly> The only solution is to teach the spam filter to identify text about computer science-related topics
23:39:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ps4star]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49685 * Oerjan * (+300) Created your page for you
23:40:46 <oerjan> FireFly: i don't think our wiki really works that way. Of course if we could at least use one of the more well-used filtering solutions...
23:41:37 <FireFly> It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek
23:41:55 <FireFly> Just throw machine learning at it; that'll solve everything!
23:41:57 <oerjan> i had sort of half-retired from wiki work but now i feel almost like i'm the only active admin...
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23:42:16 <oerjan> then it'll shut out the rest of us and take over the world
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23:54:42 <fizzie> What sort of thing would you want to have?
23:54:58 <oerjan> well i'm not sure what really exists
23:55:24 <oerjan> but something that was good enough that we could open up the wiki for anonymous edits again would be ideal.
23:57:03 <fizzie> There's at least one daily-updating IP block list that I've seen recommended, at http://www.stopforumspam.com/downloads/
23:58:46 <shachaf> pikhq: So you're not going to the bay area #esoteric meeting in October?
23:58:48 <oerjan> also the idea of having some kind of emergency shutdown for when the spammers get through nevertheless seemed to have stalled after the new (brutal) filter got added.
23:59:51 <oerjan> . o O ( there'll be just shachaf and an irc terminal )
23:59:59 <shachaf> Well, fizzie will be here.
00:00:08 <pikhq> The Bay Area is expensive as shit when most possible employers see lack of degree and stop talking to you.
00:00:22 <shachaf> pikhq: Is that actually true?
00:00:32 <pikhq> That at least *appears* to be the case.
00:00:35 <shachaf> Even with Google experience?
00:01:03 <pikhq> I can't say for sure because I don't know for sure why I've had so much trouble, but that's what I'm inferring.
00:01:16 <shachaf> What approach have you been using?
00:01:32 <oerjan> fizzie: maybe try that list, and we can see how much it helps.
00:02:13 <pikhq> Finding people, sending resumes, along with talking to recruiters, etc. Mostly I've been getting interviews that seem to go well and then get turned down.
00:02:51 <pikhq> Often shortly after they ask about details of my college education.
00:03:40 <pikhq> I mean, granted I don't know for sure that's what's doing it, but... it sure seems to be the case.
00:05:48 <fizzie> oerjan: I will try to see if there's a reasonably low-effort way to do it with the setup we have. As for the emergency shutdown, I'm not sure how to implement that. I know there's a bunch of relatively stable and well-supported/updated access control style extensions that could maybe be retrofitted to do it.
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00:10:36 <pikhq> But, yeah. Regardless, not too bad a time for me to finish up my degree.
00:14:11 <oerjan> @tell ais523 oh wait, Ps4Star didn't actually introduce emself. hm...
00:15:15 <fizzie> I saw their account creation, and went to have a look at the abusefilter log, but it hadn't triggered yet at that time.
00:15:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ps4star]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49686&oldid=49685 * Oerjan * (+77) Oops I misread what happened a bit.
00:23:36 <shachaf> got any good puns for me today?
00:24:59 <oerjan> surprisingly, i'm out.
00:25:29 <shachaf> ...I was hoping that would be followed by "quit: oerjan"
00:27:23 <shachaf> That would have been a good pun.
00:27:29 <shachaf> I didn't actually want you to quit.
00:28:16 <shachaf> What's a good way to render directed graphs semi-interactively?
00:28:31 <shachaf> Probably in JavaScript, because that's where everything is nowadays.
00:28:39 <shachaf> I want to render sorting algorithms as discussed in this channel a few days ago.
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01:24:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49687&oldid=48912 * Fizzie * (+0) Post-upgrade edit test for 1.27.1.
01:25:11 <fizzie> That doesn't help at all with the spam, but was all I could manage to actually get done.
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01:37:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/54]])
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02:16:32 <oerjan> i suppose that change might help a little, although it won't help those people who get put off altogether.
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04:00:30 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( I wish I could put Python scripts on my router. Maybe I'll have to figure out a way to do that someday
04:14:37 <quintopia> did you read that book about the scottish cryptid hunters mauled by the asbestos-furred beast against which their fire defense was useless?
04:15:25 * oerjan starts realizing _what_ quintopia is helping with...
04:15:29 <quintopia> The Unlightable Bear-Being of Ness?
04:16:36 <quintopia> (i *think* spoonerisms count as puns still)
04:19:56 <oerjan> maybe. it's a bit of knife-edge.
04:20:24 <oerjan> why must muphry's law apply to puns
04:23:35 <quintopia> i really like that one tho. dunno if it would make any sense in norway tho
04:25:27 <oerjan> the book is called "Tilværelsens uutholdelige letthet" in norwegian. it might need a bit of rethinking...
04:27:22 <oerjan> the only animal in there is "vær" which means ram.
04:28:06 <quintopia> give up. even you cannot surmount it.
04:30:36 <oerjan> some linguistic porthellos, oren's irc script calculator...
04:32:59 <oerjan> (/ctcp \oren\ VERSION)
04:33:32 <oerjan> there were some other commands too, which i've forgotten.
04:33:55 <quintopia> sad i missed todays porthellos. what were they?
04:34:18 <oerjan> i was assuming you'd been gone for a while.
04:34:29 <oerjan> but boily hasn't been on yet.
04:35:07 <oerjan> yesterday though it was... maadwoerjan iirc
04:35:24 <oerjan> a language i'd never heard of.
04:35:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: not particularly.
04:36:16 <oerjan> but in our ever-ongoing quest to think of new ones, boily and i started looking up other languages
04:37:00 <oerjan> which we have to guess
04:52:05 <\oren\> I have too many spacecraft doing stuff at once
04:53:13 <oerjan> any space junk creating collisions
04:55:21 <\oren\> oerjan: no, but several things have mysteriously exploded
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04:56:31 <\oren\> no casualties so far, but there's like 13 tourists on various spacecraft so it's only a matter of time
04:57:30 <oerjan> 13 tourists is bad luck
05:02:20 <\oren\> yeah counted them. 13 tourists, on four different tour craft...
05:08:40 <\oren\> If I can land this craft successfully, there will only be nine
05:10:39 <oerjan> . o O ( And then there were nine )
05:11:32 <oerjan> \oren\: also if unsuccessfully hth
05:17:29 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Bah! Everyone knows that if you HAVE to have 13 people in separate groups you should at least divide them evenly among the groups or the luck becomes 13x worse!
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05:32:25 <oerjan> a prime suggestion if i ever saw one.
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05:50:11 <zzo38> Can you explain this question? "If I have a Ouija board in my house, but I only use it at other properties, will my house still be whatever you people say it truly is?"
05:55:41 <oerjan> i think you should ask in the other kind of #esoteric hth
05:57:52 <oerjan> my hunch is, though, that it relates to some superstition about divination affecting houses where they are performed, but i have not heard that so i don't even know if it's supposed to be good or bad
05:58:20 <oerjan> and that might very well depend on who you ask. i'd expect christians to think it's bad and new agers to think it's good...
05:59:46 <oerjan> (the former because divination might be seen as magic or devil worship)
06:00:40 <oerjan> and the question presumably asks whether whatever the effect is happens even if the ouija board is only stored in the house.
06:03:08 <zzo38> (The question was posted on an article about a kind of ouija board in QWERTY order, and mentioning ideomotor effect, and that you might use a computer on-screen keyboard with hover mode. The people who wrote this article are not occult.)
06:04:12 <\oren\> Landing sucessful! nothing exploded
06:04:35 <oerjan> ic. i think the questioner may have been confused by the article and thought it _was_ about something occult, then.
06:07:33 <\oren\> we got almost a million funds from these tourists for bringing them home from the Mun safely
06:08:34 <oerjan> or perhaps there was a different comment that was, and which it was responding to.
06:09:07 <oerjan> \oren\: money from munatics
06:11:55 <\oren\> the great thing about his is that the vehicle was an SSTO and therefore we barely spent any money to get them ther and back
06:35:43 <zzo38> oerjan: That was the first comment.
06:36:34 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe it was to a deleted comment. (just theorizing here...)
06:40:50 <zzo38> I have not checked the history, but even so they could have deleted it from the history too.
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07:19:45 <hppavilion[1]> Minsky once offered a prize to anyone who could stop the Loebner Prize competition
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07:33:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49688&oldid=49639 * Erikkonstas * (+13) HUGE FAULT!!
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07:49:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49689&oldid=49688 * Erikkonstas * (+197) faults
07:52:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49690&oldid=49689 * Erikkonstas * (+91) /* Optimizer */
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07:58:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49691&oldid=49682 * Qwerp-Derp * (-2)
08:09:55 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-LhWP_T0IA this is the most amazing sword swallowing acrobat i've seen in the past 10 minutes
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10:16:31 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 39.65 1755 nuke
10:16:31 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 1963.13131378555
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13:46:22 <APNG> when truth tables are built into your language https://bitbucket.org/SoniEx2/prexcl/src/2085607cd948/if.prexcl?at=master
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15:40:21 <Taneb> I made a maths joke, I'm afraid
15:40:32 <Taneb> What do you call a sporadic group which lives in the Republic of Ireland?
15:41:44 <FireFly> I probably don't know enough group theory to get this
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15:50:58 <int-e> I wonder how well known the provinces of Ireland are (I don't even recognize their names)
15:56:27 <alercah> Taneb: Dr. Stravinsky was a bit of an eccentric fellow, even for a pure mathematics professor.
15:57:02 <alercah> But he was nonetheless a good friend to have, because of his extensive personal library, full of rare and exotic mathematical texts.
15:57:46 <alercah> He was an expert curator, and his thousands of books were maintained in meticulous order; he was always able to find any book almost instantly.
15:59:08 <alercah> But the department chair had an issue with him: he hadn't fulfilled his mandatory service to the university in quite some time.
16:00:23 <alercah> Eventually, Dr. Stravinsky was called into the chair's office, and she said "You are required to put in service hours, so if you won't find something to do, I will. I've arranged for you to go down to the library and help them catalogue their books. This should be right up your alley."
16:00:45 <alercah> Realizing that his job was on the line, Dr. Stravinsky begrudgingly went over to the library to work.
16:00:51 <alercah> One week later, he was in the chair's office again.
16:00:54 <gamemanj> I'm guessing nobody in the library found any books.
16:01:52 <alercah> "The library tells me that you're useless sorting! How is it that you have a meticulously arranged personal library, yet when you go to the university library, you don't even seem to know where to start?"
16:02:06 <alercah> Dr. Stravinsky just replied, "I can only order well when given the choice!"
16:02:19 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanks'_square_forms_factorization in this algorithm, how do i choose k?
16:02:36 <Taneb> If I knew how to make a squinty face smiley I would
16:02:41 <Taneb> Also, good joke :D
16:03:52 <gamemanj> I don't get the joke, but TBH I'm still trying to resolve the ambiguity of the word "choice".
16:03:58 <gamemanj> It could be the choice (of how to sort the books)
16:04:07 <gamemanj> or the choice (to sort the books)
16:04:24 <Taneb> gamemanj, the latter, also the axiom
16:05:51 <int-e> izabera: "[...] a small multiplier k. [...] Otherwise try another value of k." ... sounds to me like you start from 1 and increment until you're successful or give up
16:06:34 <alercah> gamemanj: it doesn't really matter. the pun is on the axiom of choice
16:06:45 <alercah> and its equivalence with the well-ordering principle
16:07:15 <gamemanj> but you see, I'm not exactly a maths person
16:07:34 <gamemanj> I'm a "why on earth did Wikipedia write all these expressions in this weird notation, when it makes so much more sense in code form" person
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16:19:09 <int-e> izabera: I have no idea. How does this compare to Pollard's rho method? (which is exprected to take O(sqrt(p)) steps where p is the smallest prime factor of N, so O(N^(1/4)) as well)
16:19:44 <int-e> But I don't have time for this right now.
16:19:47 <izabera> people on mathoverflow say that squfof is faster up to 64 bit
16:20:13 <izabera> https://mathoverflow.net/questions/114018/fastest-way-to-factor-integers-260
16:20:20 <izabera> actually they said 60 bits
16:20:59 <int-e> but in that case I guess you simply never give up
16:21:30 <int-e> (you should do primality tests in advance, of course, to avoid factoring primes)
16:21:54 <izabera> deterministic miller rabin first, and then k from 1 to infinity and beyond
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16:47:05 <APic> http://mashable.com/2015/10/15/penis-emoji/#dSSp2lZKwmqi
17:03:50 <petsu> so like i just tore off my pinky toe toe nail
17:04:03 <petsu> anyone wa nt to see the pile of nails i've picked off
17:04:06 <petsu> thanks for listening
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19:28:32 <hppavilion[1]> TIL the National Film Registry, America's DVD collection where we store all the good movies in case the world ends in fire so we'll have something to watch after Armageddon, includes Star Wars (now: Star Wars: A New Hope) and Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
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19:48:07 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit#United_States "The Library of Congress does not retain all works." huh.
19:48:14 <zzo38> DVD won't help; you will need to store them in uncompressed unencrypted format, in case the document for DVD-video decoding is also destroyed by the fire.
19:49:41 <FireFly> We have two libraries that are required by law to keep copies of all documents sent as legal deposit
19:50:15 <FireFly> For preservation and whatnot
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20:13:31 <gamemanj> zzo38: but I don't understand the YUV spec!
20:14:26 <gamemanj> (/NTSC/PAL/Kentucky Signal Encoding/fbdev archival format/if you are still reading this, the last two entries are fake)
20:21:06 <zzo38> Then watch them in grayscale.
20:26:59 <gamemanj> zzo38: what about the CRT specifications?
20:28:59 <zzo38> I don't know; you can figure out what to do
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20:42:13 <gamemanj> So I've thought of a good toy for children... (the idea, of course, being that in an apocalypse, one might survive): The Electron Gun!
21:02:03 <izabera> is it made only out of electrons?
21:03:03 <gamemanj> But it fires electrons, with pinpoint accuracy! (Warning. Bringing an Electron Gun to a water gun fight may result in death.)
21:05:36 <izabera> how do you manage to target your opponent and bypass the air in between?
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21:05:56 <gamemanj> Just set the power level high enough, and destroy the air faster than it can refill the space.
21:06:09 <gamemanj> (Warning. This may not be scientifically accurate.)
21:06:53 <gamemanj> (Though, really, if people had to worry from eye cancer from being too close to CRTs, think about what a completely unguarded beam could do...)
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21:20:08 <FireFly> I read that as "made only out of elections" for some reason..
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21:35:14 <zzo38> Maybe you know some idea which can help I can make up some Magic: the Gathering cards and some sets and blocks (in some cases, existing blocks).
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21:35:48 <zzo38> I made up some cards but I would hope can make with collaboration.
21:45:41 <zzo38> We can also to make up the "esoteric programming block" of Magic: the Gathering cards.
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23:13:49 <zzo38> One card was "Human Supremacy Corporation", which is a black and white permanent card which damages non-Human creatures. How I had it before might not be as so good and I wanted to make a better card that does that; do you have idea?
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00:28:19 <oerjan> <FireFly> I probably don't know enough group theory to get this <-- i knew enough group theory but not enough irish geography.
00:28:58 <FireFly> I'd actually heard about the monster group, but that is probably more due to casual wikipedia browsing than maths knowledge
00:29:14 <oerjan> well it _is_ the most famous sporadic group.
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01:42:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49692&oldid=49691 * Qwerp-Derp * (+64)
01:43:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49693&oldid=49692 * Qwerp-Derp * (+39)
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02:35:15 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Apparently, flagged half notes are a thing
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03:17:30 <Sgeo> What's the sound quality like on bone-conduction headphones?
03:21:11 <oerjan> thank you, i'll be here all week, unless i get dragged away.
04:24:56 <HackEgo> Robdgreat: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
04:25:20 <shachaf> Ignore the bit about no hablamos espñol.
04:25:40 <shachaf> I thought the welcomes were supposed to be direct translations?
04:25:56 <Robdgreat> ok, help me out here. which bot am I ignoring?
04:26:13 <oerjan> shachaf: it's because of the venezuelans, who wouldn't get the point that this isn't a spanish channel.
04:26:20 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:26:30 <Robdgreat> I'm going to live to regret unignoring him
04:26:34 <HackEgo> Robdgreat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:26:47 <oerjan> trust shachaf to work hard on the regretting part
04:27:11 <shachaf> `slwd welcome//s#!#! Unfortunately, most of us do not speak Spanish.#
04:27:20 <oerjan> shachaf: does this mean that you do speak spanish
04:27:21 <\oren\> man relcome looks a lot better with my new color scheme
04:27:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't mean that it's false, just irrelevant.
04:28:08 <shachaf> oerjan: Come on, I've made so many improvements to HackEgo.
04:28:24 <HackEgo> shaventions include: before/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
04:28:32 <shachaf> Without me you'd still be echo > and seding all the time.
04:28:44 <shachaf> And never culpriting, and so on.
04:29:09 <HackEgo> shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf
04:29:37 <HackEgo> 2016-06-28 <shachaf> slwd shavention//s#hogue#{h,d}oag# \ 2016-06-25 <shachaf> sled wisdom/shavention//s#mk#tmp/, mk# \ 2016-06-07 <shachaf> sled wisdom/shavention//s/\\*list, // \ 2016-06-05 <shachaf> sedlast s/$/. Taneb invented them./ \ 2016-06-05 <shachaf> le/rn shavention/shaventions include: before/lastfiles, culprits, hog/hogue, le//rn, *lis
04:29:53 <shachaf> Pretty sure I shavented some more things since then.
04:30:21 <oerjan> hm i guess i invented the w versions, maybe.
04:30:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
04:30:40 <HackEgo> 2016-06-27 <shachaf> mkx bin/doag//hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\\n" -- "$@"
04:31:16 <HackEgo> bin/lastfiles \ bin/hoag \ bin/doag \ bin/macro \ bin/hog \ bin/culprits-ng \ bin/before
04:32:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, you shavented all the w versions.
04:33:21 <\oren\> `` rgrep -l wisdom bin
04:33:22 <HackEgo> bin/lastwisdoms \ bin/learn \ bin/learn_append2 \ bin/leann \ bin/slashlearn \ bin/dowg \ bin/learn_append \ bin/howg \ bin/slwd \ bin/forget \ bin/? \ bin/pastewisdom \ bin/wisdöm \ bin/cwlprits \ bin/footnote \ bin/wisdom \ bin/ls
04:33:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ wisdom | döts
04:33:39 <HackEgo> hg log --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@" \ hg log --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
04:33:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ print_args_or_input "$@" | sed -re "y/aehiotuwxyAEHIOUWXY/äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿÄËḦÏÖÜẄẌŸ/"
04:34:15 <shachaf> Are you going to shavent dog for completeness?
04:34:39 <HackEgo> find .hg/store/data/wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 /bin/ls -t | perl -pe 'use POSIX;chop;$d=strftime("%F",localtime((stat($_))[9]));s=^.hg/store/data/wisdom/(.*).i$=\1 // =;s=^=/$d/ = if$d ne$p;$p=$d;s=_(.)=uc($1)=eg;s=~([0-9a-f][0-9a-f])=chr hex$1=eg'
04:35:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cwlprism: not found
04:35:08 <oerjan> i just find it slightly inelegant that the a and w modifiers clash in position...
04:35:25 <oerjan> also, is a consistently used
04:36:10 <HackEgo> cat: bin/ho{w,a}g: No such file or directory
04:36:15 <HackEgo> hoag "wisdom/$1" \ hg log --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
04:36:20 <shachaf> Let's see. The etymology is:
04:36:41 <shachaf> hoag is a variant of hog (that uses --removed to show everything that might be relevant)
04:36:45 <shachaf> It's named after Jonathan Hoag
04:37:04 <shachaf> howg is a variant of howg that has the same pronunciation, but adds wisdom/
04:37:11 <HackEgo> <shachaf> slwd shavention//s#hogue#{h,d}oag# \ <shachaf> sled wisdom/shavention//s#mk#tmp/, mk# \ <shachaf> sled wisdom/shavention//s/\\*list, // \ <shachaf> sedlast s/$/. Taneb invented them./ \ <shachaf> le/rn shavention/shaventions include: before/lastfiles, culprits, hog/hogue, le//rn, *list, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1
04:38:12 <shachaf> Look, you can't just rename one of them.
04:38:21 <shachaf> You should document the naming scheme if you
04:39:17 <shachaf> `mkx bin/howg//echo "howg is deprecated! use hwag instead."; exec hwag "$@"
04:42:16 <shachaf> I don't understand this new scheme.
04:42:37 <shachaf> I'd rather revert the whole thing unless there's a consistent rationale or heuristic for figuring out the right script.
04:43:35 <HackEgo> bin/anonlog \ bin/culprits-ng \ bin/doag \ bin/dowg \ bin/hoag \ bin/hog \ bin/howg \ bin/log \ bin/noping \ bin/pastalog \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastlog \ bin/ping \ bin/pong \ bin/preprocess-mtg \ bin/randomanonlog \ bin/rng \ bin/searchlog \ bin/something
04:43:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1| sed "s=<[^>]*> ==" \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(grep "<.*>" $file | shuf -n 1)" | sed "s=<[^>]*> ==" \ fi
04:44:23 <HackEgo> âELF............>.....0@.....@....... ..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@.....À.......À............................@......@............................................@.......@.....\......\........ ....................`......`.....`......¬....... .................`.....`.....à.......à................
04:44:28 <HackEgo> bin/doag \ bin/dowg \ bin/hoag \ bin/hog \ bin/howg
04:44:45 <oerjan> `` grep -v 'remove' bin/{d,h}*g
04:44:46 <HackEgo> bin/dowg:doag "wisdom/$1" \ bin/hog:hg log --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@" \ bin/howg:hoag "wisdom/$1"
04:44:50 <shachaf> `` objdump -d bin/something | paste
04:44:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.15531
04:45:06 <HackEgo> <hppavilion[1]> ` mv jnk/something bin/something
04:45:13 <oerjan> it's only hog which doesn't use --removed
04:45:26 <shachaf> Do we want to standardize on always using --removed?
04:45:41 <shachaf> It gives more complete but often irrelevant output.
04:45:43 <\oren\> Robdgreat: the'yre degugging and modifying the bot in realtime
04:46:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dog: not found
04:46:27 <HackEgo> <hppavilion[1]> ` mv jnk/something bin/something
04:46:36 <HackEgo> <moon__> ` mv bin/Something jnk/something
04:46:43 <HackEgo> <oerjan> ` gcc -x c -o bin/Something wGAUV3ER \ <Moon_> ` gcc -x c waDs9gmT -o bin/Something \ <Moon_> ` gcc -x c UZ3ESUfL -o bin/Something \ <Moon_> ` gcc -x c 6TL7V2mM -o bin/Something \ <Moon_> ` gcc -x c yn9LVhJv -o bin/Something
04:46:53 <HackEgo> <Moon_> revert \ <Moon_> fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/wGAUV3ER
04:47:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wGAUV3ER
04:49:40 <\oren\> looks like that pastebin is some sort of crude interpreter
04:49:58 <oerjan> yeah one of moon_'s experiments.
04:50:41 <oerjan> (or did he make a wiki page? i've forgotten.)
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04:54:14 <HackEgo> digin4: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:55:44 <shachaf> Hmm, welcome should be the wisdom version of relcome
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05:00:15 <oerjan> i think digin4 found us too surreal
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05:00:43 <oerjan> either that, or e's having connection trouble.
05:01:31 <shachaf> I should learn about surreal numbers.
05:01:35 <shachaf> Wasn't someone in here an expert?
05:02:56 <HackEgo> surreal number? ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:07:57 <oerjan> `le/rn surreal number/Surrey numbers are very county, as long as they're not Spelthorne.
05:09:01 <oerjan> that wisdom should be sufficiently surreal hth
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05:38:09 <cyra> i am frustrated at higher education mathematdicks
05:38:21 <cyra> maybe i just have a bad teacher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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06:55:31 <oerjan> either hppavilion[1] is making a late surreal contribution, or he's finally cracked.
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07:26:15 <izabera> https://sites.google.com/a/bostic.com/keithbostic/vi/nvi-faq#A14
07:26:23 <izabera> You can buy version 13.3 source with an unrestricted license for $400 from AT&T Software Solutions by calling +1-800-462-8146. Binary redistribution of cscope is an additional $1500, one-time flat fee.
07:36:44 <myname> compiling seems to be expensive
07:46:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Logicode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49694 * Darkrifts * (+215) Created page with "In the '''IO''' section, it uses the term <pre>func</pre>, but aren't <pre>circ</pre> declarations the way to make functions? ~~~~"
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08:29:16 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan 300 reindeer were killed by lighting in Norway.
08:39:15 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Can a (novel-length) book be written without chapter format without looking terrible? )
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16:04:40 <Slereah> I'm trying to rewrite my lazy bird interpreter
16:04:52 <Slereah> So far not working so good
16:05:06 <Slereah> del printx = x => { Console.Write('a'); return x; };
16:05:17 <Slereah> But that only gives me a single a
16:05:29 <Slereah> Not quite sure why, I think it might be the order of evaluation
16:09:15 <Slereah> Yeah I think the evaluation is backward compared to the normal operation
16:09:26 <Slereah> m(printx(i, 'a')(printx(i, 'b'))); prints "ab" rather than "ba"
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16:38:13 <tswett> Slereah: I don't seem to recall C# having a "del" keyword.
16:38:37 <Slereah> del is delegate del del(del a);
16:38:58 <Slereah> Is that kosher to make a pure lambda expression
16:39:40 <tswett> I might name it Del, though.
16:39:45 <Slereah> m(printx('a')); doesn't print two a's, even though printx('a')(printx('a')); does
16:40:06 <tswett> If it's named "del", then someone might mistake it for a keyword.
16:40:24 <Slereah> Psh who cares for someone :p
16:40:32 <Slereah> It's not like someone else will see that code
16:41:50 <tswett> So, when you evaluate m(printx('a')), that's going to first evaluate printx('a') (which will output 'a') and then call m() on the result.
16:42:48 <Slereah> Can I switch the order of evaluation?
16:43:14 <tswett> But wait, why does printx('a') typecheck? Isn't printx a "del", meaning it can only take a "del" as an argument?
16:43:17 <Slereah> It ain't called Lazy Bird for nothing
16:43:26 <tswett> Well, you could do something like...
16:43:29 <Slereah> printx isn't quite as pure
16:43:32 <tswett> m(unusedValue => printx('a'))
16:43:37 <Slereah> It's delegate del delchar(char c);
16:44:12 <tswett> Maybe what you're after is...
16:44:34 <tswett> Something along the lines of...
16:44:58 <tswett> delchar printx = inputChar => x => { Console.Write(inputChar); return x; };
16:45:32 <Slereah> Would that solve my problem though
16:45:49 <Slereah> If the evaluation is done in the wrong order it will change the behaviour of programs
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16:46:43 <Slereah> I could just rewrite a lambda interpreter myself but if I could change to lazy evaluation the existing lambdas it would be swell
16:47:25 <tswett> There's gonna be a nice way to do this in C#...
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16:47:49 <Slereah> Technically this would only affect the non-pure operators
16:48:01 <Slereah> But I'm not sure how to fix this especially for those
16:48:15 <tswett> I feel like just using "del", exactly as you're currently using it, ought to work.
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16:48:42 <tswett> Then again, maybe not.
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16:49:31 <Slereah> Switching to delchar printx = inputChar => x => { Console.Write(inputChar); return x; }; still only produces one a
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16:50:33 <tswett> And what expression are you using now?
16:50:40 <tswett> What are you evaluating that only produces one a?
16:51:22 <Caesura> https://gyazo.com/e0bc79e0dab2a2d8303b71cf935e62fe.png
16:51:31 <tswett> That would produce only one "a" even if lazy evaluation were used.
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16:52:21 <tswett> m(printx('a')) would reduce to printx('a')(printx('a')). The outer printx('a') would get reduced and thus would print "a", leaving you with printx('a'). Then evaluation would finish.
16:52:45 <Slereah> Let's see what happens if I add an i
16:53:03 <Slereah> m(printx('a'))(i); does produce two i's
16:53:38 <Slereah> and u(u((printx('a'))))(i); does produce an infinite loop
16:53:51 <Slereah> I guess I need to do (my program)(i) by default
16:54:58 <Slereah> Now to do a parser for the code
16:55:15 <Slereah> I bet C# has a standard one by default
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16:58:07 <tswett> Parsing this oughta be pretty easy. Consider using recursion.
16:58:46 <Slereah> yeah shouldn't be too hard
16:58:56 <Slereah> There's only one operation to be applied
16:59:37 <tswett> public static LbExpression Parse(TextReader reader) { switch (reader.Read()) { case '`': LbExpression function = Parse(reader); LbExpression argument = Parse(reader); return function.Apply(reader); case ... } }
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17:25:22 <Slereah> Let's try a more complicated expression
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17:26:55 <Slereah> `````````````.h.e.l.l.o.,. .w.o.r.l.d.!i prints "hhee"
17:26:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ````````````.h.e.l.l.o.,.: not found
17:29:21 <Slereah> Gotta find the correct regular expression for a combinator expression
17:33:05 <Slereah> What's a regular expression if X = a is an expression and X = `XX is an expression
17:34:27 <Slereah> Apparently basic regexps do not handle nesting
17:34:45 <Slereah> Might have to do it by hand
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17:45:35 <Sgeo> http://www.operasoftware.com/press/releases/desktop/opera-releases-bork-edition
17:46:40 <Slereah> Now let's try the Fibonacci
17:47:21 <Slereah> "Process is terminated due to stack overflow"
17:47:41 <Slereah> I guess when the program doesn't stop it doesn't print things until the end
17:48:58 <Slereah> `u`u.a prints characters before the stack overflow
17:48:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: u`u.a: not found
17:52:40 <Slereah> Maybe I should just rewrite it like before as a dynamic string
17:52:48 <Slereah> Might avoid the stack overflows
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19:58:29 <gamemanj> Like HTML tags, but more confusing.
19:59:34 <\oren\> my god its full of stars
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20:07:57 <\oren\> ☫ and ☬ are hard to draw
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20:25:11 <myname> space grunts looks like a mobile game for whiever it was who did 't like the turnbased aspect of roguelikes
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21:20:15 <myname> i know way too few people that do graphical stuff
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21:39:54 <zzo38> It is an invalid Unicode character.
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22:37:54 <\oren\> prooftechnique: it is invalid, but still can occur, so there is a glyph for it in my font
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22:39:03 <wob_jonas> My bank card again got physically damaged. This is the third time my bank card has had a shorter lifespan than their normal replacement time.
22:39:27 <wob_jonas> I know it's getting a lot of wear because I'm carrying it in my wallet all the time, but isn't that supposed to be sort of normal use for a bank card?
22:39:49 <\oren\> maybe your wallet is too small or too big
22:40:17 <\oren\> or you have too many cards in your wallet
22:40:38 <moonythedwarf_> Question: anyone know of a IRC bot that can preform the Riemann function?
22:41:00 <wob_jonas> This time it's not around the chip where it torn, but instead there's a tear starting from the short side of the card you hold in your hand when you insert it, on the side of the magnetic strip.
22:41:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\: maybe, or more likely too much cash and tickest and other non-card items, or the wallet is getting pulled tense and curved in my pocket
22:42:36 <wob_jonas> The usual advice is to not put your bank card (or other fragile items like a calculator or mobile phone) in your back pocket, but I never do that! I always have it in my front jeans pocket (or rarely in a bag).
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22:44:04 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf_: we have some reasonably programmable bots, so presumably you can upload a short program that computes it
22:44:32 <wob_jonas> you can probably find a ready-made implementation of it in some library
22:44:48 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: node: command not found
22:45:08 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf_: you mean the Riemann zeta function, right?
22:46:11 <wob_jonas> This Riemann zeta: http://dlmf.nist.gov/25.2
22:47:26 <moonythedwarf_> Calculates the Riemann sum for a one-variable function f on the interval [a,b] with n equally-spaced divisons. If sampler is given, that function will be used to calculate which value to sample on each subinterval; otherwise, the left endpoint will be used.
22:48:18 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf_: that's not the Riemann zeta, that's quadrature (approximating a Riemann integral) in one dimension
22:49:19 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf_: ok, so what do you actually want?
22:49:38 <\oren\> I don't think I've ever put anything in the back pocket of my jeans. how would I sit?
22:50:35 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game I managed to summon a grandfather clock into a prison cell and when it chimed the guards game down and wondered how it got there.
22:50:38 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I put a key there, and sometimes plastic bags. never bigger stuff.
22:51:06 <wob_jonas> zzo38: is it wise to alert your guards that you can do magic?
22:52:29 <wob_jonas> nah, I guess they probably already knew so it doesn't matter
22:52:45 <zzo38> There was a anti-magic field active, but the book that summoned the clock somehow overcomes that anti-magic, and so they were unable to unsummon it.
22:53:32 <wob_jonas> zzo38: is that plain arcane magic, or something different?
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22:53:54 * zgrep pops in to glimpse at the backlog and sees an out of context «is it wise to alert your guards that you can do magic?», zgrep now imagines wob_jonas locked in a castle room, with guards outside guarding him
22:53:56 <zzo38> I don't know how the book works. I just wrote "clock" and there it was.
22:55:07 <moonythedwarf_> summon a pair of magic garden clippers that can cut through steel
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22:55:57 <wob_jonas> no wait, I think you do psionic magic, not arcane, right?
22:56:10 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh! just wrote "clock"? is that like Scribblenauts?
22:56:20 <zzo38> wob_jonas: My character can do both, but I don't know how this book works.
22:56:40 <wob_jonas> have they tested whether it's an illusion?
22:56:56 <zzo38> Not as far as I know
22:57:09 <zzo38> The reason for the clock was to time the expiration of a spell I had set up elsewhere. The spell created a large block and was meant to make noise by the cups sitting on top of it falling down once the spell expires (causing the block to disappear), to wake us up, but we were put in jail instead.
22:57:56 <zzo38> Therefore I trick the guards in going to the hotel just before it would expire, so they would hear the noise, enter the room and try to dispel the magic cups but they can't because it isn't magic. They might think therefore that we have stronger magic than they have because they can't dispel our magic.
22:59:17 <wob_jonas> wait, is the clock set to the right time for that? or do you have some way to find out what time it is, from a prison cell?
22:59:37 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That's what I used the clock for; to determine what time it was.
22:59:58 <wob_jonas> I guess you could just ask the guards
23:00:09 <zzo38> wob_jonas: They refused to answer.
23:00:22 <wob_jonas> zzo38: right, but did the clock arrive set to the right time and wound up?
23:00:57 <zzo38> Yes; it was early enough that I still knew what time it was, and it was wound up, too.
23:02:28 <zzo38> They might detect a dim aura if they tried, but not any stronger aura because there isn't actually any magic in effect in the hotel room (it has already expired), and in any case the cups themselves are not magical.
23:06:11 <wob_jonas> Are the guards familiar with the tale of the head of Vecna?
23:08:20 <zzo38> I don't know if they are or not
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23:12:07 <hppavilion[1]> Pedantic level 1: Replace all occurrences of pi with tau/2 (unless it's 2pi, in which case you just use tau)
23:12:32 <hppavilion[1]> Pedantic level 2: pi and tau are both acceptable, but replace all occurrences of 2 with tau/pi
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23:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> Linguistic Prank Idea: Start interpreting numbers written in standard digital fashion as an abjad
23:13:55 <shachaf> There's nothing pedantic about using 2pi instead of pi
23:14:46 <shachaf> Pedantic is the sort of thing I'm being right now.
23:15:04 <shachaf> But there's nothing incorrect about pi.
23:15:05 <zzo38> Some programs I wrote do use tau but not pi
23:15:13 <hppavilion[1]> (Or even better, an ultra-abjad, in which vowels aren't just inferred; which specific vowel sound is used is unnecessary)
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23:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a fan of the middle camp, in which Pi and Tau are both acceptable. I would call it a Golden Mean Fallacy, but we're discussing pi(/tau), not any other irrational numbers
23:16:17 <zzo38> Of course it is correct there is nothing incorrect about pi, but tau seems to be work better in many cases; but it isn't (just) because of circles, anyways.
23:16:38 <zzo38> I consider both acceptable, but find tau more useful in more cases than pi.
23:17:56 <shachaf> but that's not pedantry, yo
23:18:09 <hppavilion[1]> I think we should start using tau (together with pi) without any explanation at the beginning (so no tau = 2pi disambiguation), so people just have to start getting used to it
23:18:17 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It is if you systematically refuse to use pi
23:18:31 <shachaf> Still not pedantry. Just a preference.
23:18:49 <hppavilion[1]> moonythedwarf_: That's level 3, and you have to use it when you would otherwise just drop it to imply a coefficient of 1
23:18:54 <shachaf> If I systematically refuse to eat bell peppers, it's not pedantry to not eat bell peppers.
23:19:20 <hppavilion[1]> ("The parent quadratic function is y = pi/pix^2+0x+0")
23:21:18 <moonythedwarf_> hppavilion[1]: here is a derivative for that: (d)/(dx)(π/(π x^2)+0 x+0) = -2/x^3\
23:21:47 <hppavilion[1]> Numeric Abjad: 0 [z], 1 [w], 2 [t], 3 [θ], 4 [f], 5 [k], 6 [s], 7 [j], 8 [p], 9 [n]
23:22:21 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Pedantry was the wrong word, but I couldn't think of anything better
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23:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Also, [r] would lead to r-colored vowels, which would make things more confusing
23:24:33 <wob_jonas> hppavilion[1]: dunno, anywhere so you get a saner set of consonants.
23:24:58 <hppavilion[1]> (between the sounds you can put any monopthong you like (or none, if you like); a decimal point is represented by a [b])
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23:25:47 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, 1 should be [g] because [w] can be a difficult sound sometimes
23:26:12 <wob_jonas> it's not insane, but [r] is common and useful
23:26:43 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, but [r] leads to r-coloring, which makes things harder to understand. I guess 0 could be [r]?
23:27:25 <moonythedwarf_> its just a _esoteric_ set of constants hppavilion[1] (;
23:28:42 <hppavilion[1]> moonythedwarf_: (1) "an _esoteric_" (2) That winky face is backwards; while (: is acceptable (if strange), (; is never allowed, only ;) (3) Many of them were chosen based on their initial sound in English to make it easier for English speakers (one of the larger groups) to understand
23:30:08 <zzo38> But, English are not abjad.
23:31:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yeah, but if I try to make the numbers have vowels, I lead to issues with numbers that don't contain any
23:31:44 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. if the even digits are vowels and the odds are consonants, then you have trouble pronouncing 573597335
23:32:14 <zzo38> Yes, I can understand you
23:32:46 <hppavilion[1]> That was for anyone else reading (also, I'd already started typing and I don't like aborting messages)
23:33:21 * hppavilion[1] is pro-life, but only for relatively short Unicode strings used in text-only chat
23:35:49 <wob_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you could take a language with a somewhat strict syllable structure, and have every two consecutive digits be pronounced as a syllable, or even some more complicated system
23:36:49 <zzo38> I did have an idea like that too; treat even positions as vowels and odd positions as consonants; that isn't quite same but it is a similar thing.
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23:37:20 <wob_jonas> I think there's even such a system, though not for generating any word, but as a system to read out numbers in a terse way
23:38:06 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I could, I suppose, though odd numbers complicate a bit (even though the solution is quite obvious)
23:38:59 <hppavilion[1]> Every digit has a consonant sound and a vowel; you make these in sequence, in odd-length strings the remaining symbol is put at the end of the last syllable
23:39:07 <wob_jonas> If you didn't want the system workable by humans, then you'd just use arithmetical coding or some sort to generate almost exactly every reasonable pronunciation in a reasonable rate.
23:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> But then you have to memorize twice as many sounds
23:39:34 <zzo38> The abjad system yes is simpler and it does work too.
23:41:04 <wob_jonas> make it an abjad then, with the ten sounds being some permutations of [p m t d n k v z S r] ?
23:42:45 <zzo38> I think hppavilion[1]'s idea to omit [r] does make some sense, due to r-colour-vowels; it would be too difficult including all sound anyways
23:43:46 <wob_jonas> or you could use syllables such that each two digits encode a syllable consisting of a consonant or consonant cluster from a set of 20 and a vowel from a set of 5.
23:44:43 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: zzo38: If I do include [r], it has to be as 0 as that seems to be the only logical place for an r-colored vowel to exist
23:44:55 <shachaf> Better to use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system
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23:47:24 <wob_jonas> what if you use an escape digit so you encode 19 consonant clusters with 1, 2, ..., 9, 00, 01, ..., 09 respectively, such that the clusters you'd rather avoid at initial position get the codes staring by a zero?
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23:48:06 <wob_jonas> still, you could use an escape digit somehwo
23:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> (final digits are allowed to drop the subsequent vowel)
23:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe I should allow multiple similar sounds for each- so [t] and [d] are the same)
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23:59:31 <zzo38> Sometimes in a Dungeons&Dragons game, the duration of a spell can be much more important than the spell itself.
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00:00:16 <hppavilion[1]> Read these back to me in numeric format: sin, fot, footar,
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00:02:38 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 15h 33m 21s ago: 300 reindeer were killed by lighting in Norway.
00:02:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: shocking
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00:04:23 <oerjan> you cannot buy my kind of swatter, unless you find one of those little shops that weren't there the previous day and won't be there the next
00:05:20 <hppavilion[1]> Google Maps can probably direct me to one of those
00:05:34 <oerjan> i'm not sure google maps updates fast enough
00:05:36 <hppavilion[1]> Do they move each day, or do they only exist on some days?
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00:06:01 <oerjan> they only exist in _this_ dimension on rare occasions.
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00:06:57 <oerjan> see the relevant discworld book for explanation, i think it may have been the Light Fantastic.
00:07:32 <oerjan> (it's where the Luggage came from.)
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00:08:28 <oerjan> hm looks like an epidemic
00:09:10 <oerjan> they weren't on the same server
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00:12:11 <oerjan> * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Can a (novel-length) book be written without chapter format without looking terrible? ) <-- hm aren't the discworld books written that way too... as a conscious decision.
00:13:04 <shachaf> I remember because when I was youngish, it was bedtime, and I told my mother I would just read to the end of the chapter.
00:13:18 <shachaf> And then it turned out there were no chapters.
00:13:38 <oerjan> "Very few of the Discworld novels have chapter divisions and instead feature interweaving storylines. Pratchett is quoted as saying that he "just never got into the habit of chapters",[5] later adding that "I have to shove them in the putative YA books because my editor screams until I do"."
00:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> Last time I went to the local Bibliorium I was looking for Discworld (specifically, The Colour of Magic), but they didn't have it
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00:14:10 <oerjan> looks like an unconscious decision that stuck, rather.
00:14:11 <shachaf> chapter? i 'adn't even met 'er!
00:15:16 <oerjan> Moonythedwarf: what are you ^ing
00:15:46 <oerjan> ^ doesn't work very well in ongoing chats.
00:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> My JUNIOR FEMALE SIBLING and I are reforming the calendar
00:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> 12 30-day months (plus a 5- or 6-day festival week), 5 6-day weeks to a month
00:16:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Weeks have always bugged me because they don't fit nicely within a month)
00:16:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it is actually somewhat recommended that you _don't_ start with the first one, since it's considered relatively bad. (i didn't follow that recommendation, possibly because i didn't hear of it in time.)
00:17:10 <oerjan> i think Mort is considered the first really good one.
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00:18:09 <oerjan> no, it's the name of the main character, but it's also obviously a pun on the book's plot idea.
00:18:36 <shachaf> Sorting algorithms typically use <. Can they avoid any comparisons in any cases if they use <=> instead?
00:18:39 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I want to hear the Canadian national anthem, but altered to sound more disappointed )
00:19:10 <zzo38> You should need to know some way to determine what order they are supposed to be sorted in
00:19:46 <oerjan> shachaf: pretty obviously exactly when there are equal elements...
00:19:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: on chapters and Prattchet, see http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/words-from-the-master.html search for "chapter"
00:20:17 <hppavilion[1]> A list shuffle is just a sort where the comparison function is λ(x, y): return coinflip();
00:20:35 <shachaf> oerjan: For example, insertion sort will use the optimal number of comparisons with < if all elements are equal.
00:20:42 <oerjan> shachaf: well if there are no equal elements, you cannot get better with <=>. if there are, then you need to test equality so cannot make do with only one < between the relevant pair
00:21:11 <wob_jonas> ah, I see, oerjan already said that
00:21:47 <oerjan> shachaf: hm maybe not.
00:22:22 <shachaf> sort [x,y] = if y < x then [y,x] else [x,y]
00:22:30 <oerjan> shachaf: you have to be careful then to always use < in the direction that gives the stability you want, if any.
00:22:42 <oerjan> but i guess if you do that, then it works.
00:22:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm interested in the question both when stability is required and when it isn't.
00:23:12 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, but if you do a plain mergesort (not a two-way one) or a heapsort then I think it's relatively easy to do that without additional bookkeeping
00:23:13 <oerjan> because there's no harm in treating = as <= if they're in the right order.
00:23:47 <shachaf> There's no harm, but will any sorting algorithm do unnecessary comparisons if they think that <=?
00:23:58 <shachaf> Changed plurality mid-sentence there.
00:24:11 <oerjan> wob_jonas: sure, if you split in such a way that the lists to merge weren't interleaved originally.
00:24:47 <oerjan> actually i should have said < instead of <=, i guess.
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00:25:28 <shachaf> <=> gives you more information, so it kind of seems that you ought to be able to use it.
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00:28:19 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> 12 30-day months (plus a 5- or 6-day festival week), 5 6-day weeks to a month <-- i think i've seen at least the first part somewhere...
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00:28:59 * oerjan is bothered by week numbers, specifically by people using them when he has no idea when they are.
00:29:04 <shachaf> Maybe you're thinking of 13 28-day months?
00:29:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think you could have seen both
00:31:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the French Republican Calendar has 12 months with 30 days each plus 5 or 6 extra days outside of months per year, but it's not the first one to get that idea
00:33:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> A list shuffle is just a sort where the comparison function is λ(x, y): return coinflip(); <-- that doesn't actually work right, statistically.
00:33:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Depends on your sorting algorithm.
00:34:01 <shachaf> Certainly a lot of them assume transitivity.
00:34:29 <shachaf> If you use bogosort, it'll work correctly (but in 2^n time).
00:34:36 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, actually, non-transitive comparisons are interesting:
00:35:34 <wob_jonas> in particular, I wish some programming language libraries provided an interface for a balanced tree (and sort) ordered on a custom sorting routine that need not be transitive,
00:35:39 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Not sure if it's 2^n, as- in my understanding of bogosort- you just shuffle the list and check if it's sorted
00:36:09 <shachaf> Which means getting n coin flips to return true.
00:36:17 <shachaf> Or do you mean that it's 2^(n-1)?
00:36:31 <oerjan> shachaf: well it cannot work correctly with any method that uses a bounded number of coin flips.
00:36:58 <shachaf> What if it's sorting a list of length 2?
00:37:04 <wob_jonas> with the guarantee that two elements will be ordered consistently if they're in separate strong components of the comparison function, but not necessarily if they're in different strong components.
00:37:14 * oerjan ignores shachaf's last comment.
00:37:36 <wob_jonas> also, they should probably allow that comparison functions might depend on state, with similar guarantees.
00:38:16 <wob_jonas> so the lower bound search function in the tree can find any place within the strong component of what you're searching for.
00:39:31 <wob_jonas> so far I haven't seen any library that documents that it guarantees almost anything for an inconsistent or non-transitive comparison function, even though I think some _implementations_ might actually already guarantee this, and it wouldn't be hard to do so in most implementations
00:39:42 <wob_jonas> you can do it without overhead usually.
00:39:58 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I think that you can't even use the direct coinflip function; you need to either let the coinflip directly determine if you're done (O(2^-n), I think)
00:40:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or first chain it into something to check (which, yes, would be O(2^n). I think.)
00:40:29 <shachaf> I don't know what you're saying.
00:40:37 <shachaf> Nor why oerjan is ignoring my last comment.
00:40:40 <wob_jonas> Not every implementation supports inconsistent comparison functions, that's true, but still, the best ones do.
00:40:48 <oerjan> shachaf: because it's too trivial an objection.
00:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> If we could use time traveling computing, would algorithms be allowed to have negative O-time?
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00:41:43 <hppavilion[1]> And are there any conventional algorithms completing in O(k) time for which k shrinks?
00:41:43 <shachaf> Is it true just for 2 elements or for any power of 2?
00:42:09 <oerjan> shachaf: only 2 i think. 3 is always a factor of n! for n > 2.
00:42:25 <zzo38> What kind of algorithms will be O(sin(x))?
00:42:25 <shachaf> You can certainly end up with things like O(1/n) when talking about e.g. amortized algorithms.
00:43:09 <oerjan> . o O ( this ignoring is going well, isn't it )
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00:43:29 <zzo38> Yes, and I don't know.
00:43:49 <shachaf> ignoring ring ring ring ring ring ring / banana phone
00:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> I have a feeling if you did have an O(sin(x)) algorithm, it'd just get simplified to O(1)
00:45:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think it's impossible for k to shrink for arbitrarily large data, because to be bounded it cannot actually _check_ beyond a certain portion of the data, which prevents it from shrinking below the minimum for that amount.
00:46:06 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
00:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> But with time travel-based computation, could a problem have a complexity of e.g. O(-n^2)?
00:47:23 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
00:47:56 <oerjan> i'm not sure the banana phone can fit in there.
00:49:48 <shachaf> oerjan: It's a characteristic function, obviously.
00:52:11 <shachaf> If you write O(f) in computer science, f : N -> N is positive and increasing.
00:54:20 -!- polybot has joined.
00:54:21 <polybot> Type ~>help for all commands, and ~>help <command> for help on a command.
00:54:21 <hppavilion[1]> (Is O(3^n) allowed, or do all O(k^n)s just reduce to O(2^n)?)
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00:57:24 <zzo38> The identification says it is Node.js based and is apparently on Google's server.
00:57:57 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: A public googlian server or, like, the thing Google itself runs on?
00:59:25 -!- polybot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:00:04 -!- polybot has joined.
01:00:04 <polybot> Type ~>help for all commands, and ~>help <command> for help on a command.
01:00:35 <polybot> commmands: ping, info, waitforMsgtest, talk, cat, art, solvefor, solve, done
01:00:41 <APNG> hppavilion[1], nah if I had a bot it'd support CTCP
01:00:51 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: if coding in c... o(n) o(n2), but it
01:00:52 <fizzie> Google Compute Engine has addresses like that.
01:00:56 <zzo38> Now there are some more command at least
01:01:14 <polybot> Invalid solver undefined, valid solvers are math.js, algebra.js and mathics
01:01:46 <zzo38> See if there is information on npm possibly?
01:02:04 <polybot> { [SyntaxError: Unexpected end of expression (char 21)] char: 21 }
01:02:06 <zzo38> There is no package on npm called "polybot" anyways it seem
01:02:26 <hppavilion[1]> Are any of these us: https://github.com/orgs/tjcsl/people
01:02:44 <APNG> refuses to catch on fire, apparently
01:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> moonythedwarf_: But probably an ultra-mega-badass one that does, like, solving the Riemann hypothesis
01:03:22 <APNG> hppavilion[1], I know fwilson
01:03:38 <APNG> but I doubt they have anything to do with it
01:03:39 <polybot> Invalid solver reimann_hypothesis, valid solvers are math.js, algebra.js and mathics
01:03:46 <APNG> hppavilion[1], personally
01:04:03 <APNG> we talk a lot tho
01:04:33 <APNG> ~>prexcl 3f println test
01:04:34 <polybot> [TypeError: Cannot convert undefined or null to object]
01:04:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> (Is O(3^n) allowed, or do all O(k^n)s just reduce to O(2^n)?) <-- they're not equivalent.
01:04:52 <polybot> [TypeError: Cannot convert undefined or null to object]
01:04:59 <polybot> [TypeError: Cannot convert undefined or null to object]
01:05:05 <polybot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'toString' of undefined]
01:05:14 <moonythedwarf_> i've heard of algebra.js, its a literal, actually rather bad, calculator.
01:05:22 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:05:48 <polybot> 0.7071067811865476 + 0.7071067811865476i
01:05:50 <APNG> hppavilion[1], well fwilson isn't even online atm
01:06:07 <polybot> { [SyntaxError: Value expected (char 1)] char: 1 }
01:06:28 <APNG> it does floats, nice
01:06:45 <hppavilion[1]> APNG: I think doing floats is the bare minimum for a decent calculator
01:06:55 <APNG> what happens if you mix floats and complexes?
01:07:09 <hppavilion[1]> APNG: It returned a mix of floats and complexes to sqrt(i)
01:07:46 <zzo38> Imaginary infinity? Wrong?
01:07:50 <polybot> [Error: Undefined symbol j]
01:08:12 <polybot> 0.7071067811865476 + 0.7071067811865476i
01:08:39 <hppavilion[1]> A GOOD calculator would be able to do quaternions, surreals, split-complex, duals, and Kleene Algebra
01:09:02 <APNG> ~>solve math.js (1,1,1) + (3,3,3)
01:09:02 <polybot> { [SyntaxError: Parenthesis ) expected (char 3)] char: 3 }
01:09:14 <APNG> ~>solve math.js (1;1;1) + (3;3;3)
01:09:14 <polybot> { [SyntaxError: Parenthesis ) expected (char 3)] char: 3 }
01:09:21 <APNG> can't do vectors
01:09:54 <APNG> are those vectors tho?
01:10:03 <APNG> moonythedwarf_, eh too lazy
01:10:28 <zzo38> Does the matrix multiplication working?
01:10:30 <polybot> -2.717038835061503e-4 + 3.399328988721386e-4i
01:11:40 <zzo38> ~>solve math.js [5,6;7,8] * [2,3]
01:11:48 <zzo38> ~>solve math.js [5,6;7,8] * [2,3;4,5]
01:12:05 <zzo38> ~>solve math.js [5,6;7,8] * [1,0;0,1]
01:12:15 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot got killed
01:12:15 <APNG> it doesn't do vectors >.>
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01:12:37 <moonythedwarf_> APNG: at least it knows what a mathmatical function is
01:12:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:14:18 <moonythedwarf_> thanks to presistance we _might_ be able to make a turing machine/state machine in it
01:15:21 <moonythedwarf_> thats a list of all things it supports, i think its extended tho, Riemann is not a default function in math.js
01:15:26 <APNG> it's not fwilson's
01:17:38 <oerjan> ~>solve math.js sqrt(i)/0
01:17:42 <HackEgo> danddreclist 82: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
01:18:24 <moonythedwarf_> its actually pretty good for a IRC bot with a calculator
01:18:26 <polybot> commmands: ping, info, waitforMsgtest, talk, cat, art, solvefor, solve, done
01:19:00 <polybot> http://lorempixel.com/600/100/cats/
01:19:04 <polybot> http://lorempixel.com/100/600/abstract/
01:19:49 <polybot> In che anno e iniziata la prima guerra mondiale.
01:20:07 <zzo38> I also don't know what it is.
01:20:34 <moonythedwarf_> the only thing thats actually useful here is the calculator (~>solve math.js)
01:20:57 <polybot> In[1]:= Integrate[1+1]Out[1]= Integrate[2]
01:21:09 <shachaf> This seems a little on the botspammy side.
01:21:25 <myname> i guess it calculates 12 inches * x cm/inches / y cm/foot
01:22:54 <polybot> Hello, this is polybot's owner.
01:23:12 <APNG> I like fucking bot owners
01:23:16 <APNG> may I fuck you?
01:24:05 <APNG> moonythedwarf_, lol, just playing with the bot
01:24:19 <polybot> im not a bot, im the owner of it speaking through it
01:24:32 <APNG> polybot, right...
01:24:35 <APNG> you look like a bot
01:25:23 <oerjan> APNG: you may have been a _tad_ impolite there hth
01:25:31 <APNG> you can't just say "goodbye" and keep the stupid bot in the channel >.>
01:26:32 <APNG> oerjan, my job is to just remove the bot from the channel somehow
01:27:41 <oerjan> APNG: i don't see the bot as disruptive enough to remove, yet. it's mostly just responding to people's commands.
01:28:10 <APNG> <polybot> Hello, this is polybot's owner.
01:28:15 <APNG> except for those
01:28:29 <oerjan> APNG: well that counts as human.
01:28:53 <APNG> then why's it going through the bot?
01:29:00 <APNG> owner's banned or something?
01:29:25 <oerjan> APNG: well that's _possible_ of course, but it also just be the mystery.
01:29:42 <shachaf> oerjan: myndzi is being disruptive by not adding bodies tdnh
01:30:04 <APNG> oerjan, seems easier to just remove it
01:30:17 <moonythedwarf_> shachaf: this room is already packed, full of esoteric madness and sanity
01:30:57 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
01:31:20 <APNG> moonythedwarf_, /kick is easier than figuring out who's behind it
01:31:32 <zzo38> Do you like to make up the "esoteric programming" block of Magic: the Gathering cards?
01:31:39 <shachaf> APNG: You're being far more disruptive than the bot.
01:32:01 <shachaf> For example, you're being rude to the bot.
01:32:12 <shachaf> moonythedwarf_ is second-most disruptive.
01:32:20 <APNG> it's a bot .-.
01:32:34 <shachaf> You were being a jerk anyway.
01:32:41 * moonythedwarf_ hugs his silver metal for being second most disruptive
01:34:07 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, our internet is entirely down. Apparently there's an ongoing 6-hour maintenance window right now nobody saw fit to mention to us.
01:35:24 <moonythedwarf_> fizzie, can you give your opinion in the bot that popped up randomly recently, polybot?
01:36:37 <fizzie> shachaf: Either BT or my ISP (zen.co.uk), I can't quite tell from their status page.
01:37:04 <fizzie> There's been a bunch previously as well, but this is the first one that actually took things down.
01:37:17 <fizzie> Presumably they're actually doing something this time.
01:37:28 <oerjan> wat. i'm actually logging #esoteric.
01:37:43 -!- polybot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:37:50 <oerjan> i thought i had specifically told irssi to log only privmsg
01:38:26 -!- polybot has joined.
01:38:27 <polybot> Type ~>help for all commands, and ~>help <command> for help on a command.
01:38:53 <shachaf> polybot: i think the join message is unnecessary hth
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01:41:31 <APNG> polybot, stop making fwilson look bad, change the bot's name
01:42:09 <polybot> how does it make fwilson look bad?
01:42:27 <APNG> polybot, fwilson made a bot called polybot 3 or so years ago
01:42:32 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:42:50 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*nodebot@*.147.197.104.bc.googleusercontent.com.
01:42:51 -!- oerjan has kicked polybot.
01:43:13 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:43:53 <oerjan> APNG: our channel's most insistently returning troll
01:44:26 <APNG> oerjan, hmm...
01:44:29 <myname> it's not that insistent imho
01:44:37 <APNG> they don't seem to have signed their work...
01:44:49 <APNG> oerjan, how can you be so sure?
01:45:06 <oerjan> an interesting question. i don't wish that to be generally known hth
01:45:36 <APNG> in my experience, the ppl usually considered trolls tend to sign their work
01:46:45 <moonythedwarf_> oerjan, proof is needed. otherwise it can be considered a unfair ban.
01:46:49 <oerjan> APNG: hagb4rd has never done that.
01:47:24 <shachaf> maybe hagb4rd is oerjan's alter ego
01:47:27 <myname> somewhere else we have somebody in therapy who is joining at least twice a weak holding huge monologues insulting any possible human
01:48:38 <fizzie> In the next episode, oerjan turns out to be the polybot author and it was all some sort of crafty scheme.
01:48:41 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: myndzi is being disruptive by not adding bodies tdnh <-- tru.
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01:49:03 <APNG> also plurals are cool
01:49:21 <olsner> shachaf: it takes two bots to party
01:50:16 <APNG> hppavilion[1], well they're forced to deal with so much crap that I find them cool
01:51:15 <APNG> not that kind of plural
01:52:16 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I see "algae" more as a mass noun more than a plural
01:52:29 <zzo38> You should need the proper proof otherwise is no good. Alternatively, can it be similar to zero-knowledge-proof? I think not.
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01:53:19 <APNG> plurals are cooler than plurals
01:54:11 <APNG> uh there's probably a better link I could use, but this'll do http://pluralityresource.org/plurality-information/
01:54:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And spaghetti is a dish, not a collection of individual objects
01:54:36 <APNG> that kind of plural is better than the grammar kind of plural
01:54:52 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, "duck" is its own plural (but "ducks" is also acceptable)
01:54:54 <myname> i used to fool my english class with people - peoples, pupil - ?
01:55:12 <APNG> 'peoples' is a thing
01:55:16 <myname> hppavilion[1]: spaghetti are more than one spaghetto hth
01:55:35 <myname> APNG: look it up. it's not what you'd expect
01:55:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I have never heard that. Is that actually valid Italian?
01:56:02 <myname> cappuccino is singular of cappuccini
01:56:19 <APNG> myname, it's impossible to look up
01:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: "peoples" is a thing and everyone knows it. When "people" is used as a singular, it refers to a society (or ethnicity, etc.), and "peoples" refers to several of these
01:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> So "Native American peoples" refers to the various groups of American Indian
01:56:59 <hppavilion[1]> And buffalo is weird- "buffalo", "bison", and (to a lesser extent) "buffalos"/"buffaloes" are all correct
01:57:42 <APNG> but yes, this kind of plural is cool: pluralityresource.org/plurality-information/
01:57:49 <hppavilion[1]> (If you said "buffaloes" to someone who wasn't particularly invested in bison- e.g. anyone not from the midwest- they'd probably take a few seconds to catch the use of a weird pluralization)
01:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> (well, maybe not. But everyone knows what you mean and it sounds like it could be right.)
01:58:48 <myname> also, the same italian one: graffito
01:59:08 -!- APNG has left ("o/").
01:59:23 <hppavilion[1]> deers, fishes/fishies, salmons, sheeps, squids (huh, apparently "squid" is a valid plural. I guess it's just that if there's more than one squid, you're too busy screaming to talk about it)
02:00:12 <hppavilion[1]> How do you refer to a single piece of the blues genre?
02:00:50 <hppavilion[1]> ox -> oxes, child -> ...OK, "children" is the only acceptable plural of child.
02:01:13 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, "brethren" is just an archaic pluralization of "brother"
02:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> (How do you triple-plural person? person -> people -> peoples -> ???)
02:01:42 <shachaf> You must never say "brethren" and "brothers" in the same breath.
02:01:52 <shachaf> But it's OK in multiple breathren.
02:03:49 <myname> but oh welö, in german, the plural of "status" is "status", but with a longer u
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02:04:48 <myname> it is directly transfered from latin, i think
02:05:06 <hppavilion[1]> (I've heard people say that the word "bitch" (in the non-dog sense) shouldn't be used at work because it's sexist)
02:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> (OK, (a) it shouldn't be used at work because it's considered obscene, and you don't use obscene words at work in general unless you work for an institution that permits or encourages it (like a Porn site). (b) Really, it's no more sexist than "waitress" in my mind, because I've always thought of "bitch" as the feminine of "bastard". Now, using it to refer to a man, on the other hand...)
02:07:22 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I just learned about hyponyms and hypernyms, and now I'm happy
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02:14:14 <shachaf> In the US "pennies" is $/100 and "pence" is £/100
02:14:53 <shachaf> Actually maybe in the US "pennies" is only the coins, not the currency.
02:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But I've heard "pence", a hector times, and I'm just now learning that it just means "cents" in a way referring to the coin
02:16:19 <hppavilion[1]> (I assume when you're referring to pennies themselves you still say pence? Like, "can you make change for this" "No, I only have 8 pence" (when he has more money than that, but the price-offer relation requires nine pennies to make exact change))
02:16:25 <pikhq> shachaf: "pennies" would generally refer to the coin in US English.
02:17:07 <shachaf> The bizarre thing is that apparently some stocks are traded in pounds and some are traded in pence?
02:17:08 <pikhq> I don't think you would ever say "I only have 8 pennies" unless you literally only had 8 1¢ coins.
02:17:56 <pikhq> Huh, that is a little weird.
02:18:38 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_sterling
02:19:23 <pikhq> Not quite as weird as the now-historical practice in the US of trading stocks in 1/8th dollars.
02:19:49 <hppavilion[1]> Like, say, you're buying something that costs ¤9.91 and carrying a ¤10. The cashier has 1 ¤5-bill, 5 ¤1-coins, 1 ¤0.10-coin, and 8 pennies. AFAICT, he needs 9 pennies to make exact change. Could he refer to the pennies themselves as "8 pence", even though he has far more than that amount of money aggregate?)
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02:20:13 <shachaf> pikhq: I thought it was until 2000 or so.
02:20:26 <shachaf> pikhq: But now they're experimenting with making the tick size for some stocks $0.05.
02:20:46 <pikhq> Ah, I was quoting when the NYSE made the switch.
02:20:59 <pikhq> But the SEC required all other markets to make the switch in 2001.
02:21:23 <shachaf> Well, when one exchange makes the switch to a finer tick size, of course all the rest want to make it too.
02:21:38 <shachaf> But I thought it was later than 1997. But I'm not sure.
02:22:03 <shachaf> pikhq: What do you think the tick size should be?
02:22:13 <pikhq> The NYSE is by no means the only exchange; it's entirely plausible it took other exchanges longer.
02:22:45 <shachaf> You don't want it too small.
02:23:11 <shachaf> The SEC already thinks $0.01 might be too small.
02:23:28 <shachaf> Which is why they're experimenting with $/20.
02:23:30 <pikhq> There's a reason I didn't say FLT_EPSILON. :P
02:25:18 <hppavilion[1]> Personally, I think that value of a stock should be indicated by k ∈ ℂ
02:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> Ok, why 1/8? I mean, I'm sure the 8 is for technical reasons (2^3=8, ofc), but shouldn't they at least have used 16 (2^4, much nicer for bytes)
02:26:37 <hppavilion[1]> Really, I would've gone with 256 (2^8, 1 full byte, easy for computers)
02:26:53 <shachaf> In European markets tick size often varies with price.
02:27:05 <pikhq> It wasn't for technical reasons, it's for hilarious legacy reasons.
02:27:22 <pikhq> The US used to use the Spanish dollar, or pieces-of-eight, as currency.
02:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Ah, did their old computers use 6-bit bytes?
02:27:27 <pikhq> It had 8 natural subdivisions.
02:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> (I think there should be a metric unit of value of some sort)
02:27:59 <shachaf> But the minimum tick size *was* $/16
02:28:30 <pikhq> $/16 was switched *to* as part of migrating to $/10.
02:28:38 <pikhq> $/8 was the historical practice.
02:28:47 <pikhq> $/16 was the practice at time of decimalization.
02:28:54 <pikhq> Why this made sense is beyond me.
02:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> (What unit would the #esoteric system of measurement start with? As in, like, if we do time we can say that the base distance is how far light moves in that time)
02:29:25 <pikhq> Nothing, it's just weird to do $/8->$/16->$/10 rather than $/8->$/10.
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02:33:51 <hppavilion[1]> OK, base unit of distance is 0.865 meters (names later)
02:34:31 <shachaf> It's just a different number. Boring. All you do is multiply.
02:34:45 <shachaf> If you want something interesting, produce a whole new perspective on length and measurement.
02:34:47 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yeah, I know, but that could be said of pretty much any unit
02:34:57 <shachaf> Like general relativity, maybe?
02:35:02 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, and how would one do that? I think length is fairly objective
02:35:17 <shachaf> Or special, I guess. Whatever.
02:35:32 <shachaf> That's one sort of perspective that could be esoteric. If it wasn't so mainstream.
02:35:42 <shachaf> Invent something like that.
02:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> "This is the perceived height of Einstein to a stationary observer while moving at 15% of the speed of light"
02:36:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well what do you think would be interesting?
02:36:47 <shachaf> Linear inches would maybe be an esoteric measurement if airlines didn't use them.
02:36:51 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think it's even possible to esotericize measurement without losing any semblance of consistency
02:37:14 <shachaf> See, that's exactly why you need to step back.
02:37:53 <shachaf> One of the ideas is measuring time and space using the same units.
02:37:58 <shachaf> Maybe you can measure other things using the same units.
02:37:59 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I was going to go for things like m^(1/2) at some point
02:38:18 <shachaf> OK, that could be intersting, if you figure out something that works.
02:38:30 <shachaf> Certainly more interesting than 86.5% of a metre.
02:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: 86.5% of a meter is 1/2 the height of Hitler
02:38:56 <hppavilion[1]> (I was going to go for Turing, but I couldn't find his height)
02:38:56 <shachaf> OK, but that's not interesting.
02:39:10 <shachaf> You can use the smoot if you want.
02:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> The problem is there's no physical interpretation of root meters
02:40:20 <shachaf> Did I talk about volume time in here?
02:40:35 <shachaf> I think I did, and oerjan said something about how when all you have is nail polish, everything looks like a nail.
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02:41:42 <hppavilion[1]> (I think there's an equation with m^(1/2) in it, but I forgot what it is)
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02:47:41 <hppavilion[1]> You could measure expansion in m^2/s, I suppose. If you wanted to measure the growth of a side (assuming it's a perfect square; if it isn't, you math it so it is), you'd have to use m/sqrt(s)
02:48:42 <hppavilion[1]> If it had to be in per-second notation, you'd use m*sqrt(s)/s. If you measure it in what happens in 1 second, you get a result in m*sqrt(s)
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02:50:48 <shachaf> physical interpretations are for the physicists
02:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> You aren't being impure if you switch mindsets and only apply your mathematics at the very end (take a real-world problem, drop all the real-world stuff, do proper math, quickly turn it back into something real at the very end)
02:53:06 <hppavilion[1]> If you explain what's going on to the reader in real-world terms while mathing it, THEN your math is impure
03:16:46 <hppavilion[1]> I really don't like MKS; MGS would be objectively better
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03:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> If it's going to be entirely impossible to make Americans use SI, can we at least get them to use a YPS (yard-pound-second) metric variant?
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03:24:07 <shachaf> At that point, why not go the whole 8.2296 meters?
03:24:26 <hppavilion[2]> shachaf: And just switch to metric? Because Americans.
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03:37:42 <hppavilion[2]> (I want to see FFF, but with the additional base units for electric current, temperature, luminous intensity, and amount of substance)
03:38:58 <hppavilion[2]> (All unit names must start with F, and probably also the prefixes)
03:47:32 <HackEgo> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
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04:44:03 <HackEgo> 1134) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
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04:56:21 <zzo38> How capable is iCE40 FPGA compared to Xilinx, if IceStorm is used?
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06:00:42 <hppavilion[2]> Mathematical notation prank idea: if you have two variables h and p and you take their product, just call their product 'f' without explicitly stating so and act confused when people don't understand
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06:06:15 <hppavilion[2]> Also, single- and double-story a and g are different variables
06:06:52 <hppavilion[2]> Umlaut is an operator, but can only be applied to a (either kind), e, i, o, and u
06:07:30 <hppavilion[2]> w is equal to 2*u OR u^2, depending on the paper (be consistent in each paper, but feel free to change in different papers)
06:17:38 <zzo38> I suppose it is a new kind?
06:20:06 * hppavilion[2] . o O ( English needs some new bizarre letter variants that our ancestors will look at and say "huh, that's weird, didn't realize they used THAT historically" )
06:21:44 * Sgeo . o O ( I've only really seen . o O notation in JParanoia )
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06:42:11 <oerjan> . o O ( Do you have clearance to reveal that information )
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06:56:58 <izabera> last week on themoreyouknow
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06:58:53 <pikhq> Possible, but I don't know.
07:00:11 <pikhq> Apparently he died on route to a TV appearance commemorating the 7th anniversary of the state of Israel, though.
07:00:29 <pikhq> Oh, sorry. Not on route. Died intending to go to one.
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07:04:08 <pikhq> He was a Jew from Germany, so I can understand why he'd a) care to do such a thing b) be invited for such a thing.
07:04:56 <izabera> and, you know, the science thing
07:05:23 <izabera> your comment looks slightly racist
07:06:18 <izabera> implying that he'd be invited to tv shows for being a jew rather than for what he did
07:06:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49695&oldid=45967 * Martin Ender * (-86) /* Prelude */ update with shortened quine and correct line
07:06:48 <pikhq> No, more for the specific element of being for the 7th anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel.
07:07:46 <pikhq> i.e. that if he weren't Jewish it's rather unlikely they would think of having him for that particular event.
07:08:08 <oerjan> hm nothing caught in the wiki spam filter today
07:11:33 <hppavilion[2]> (It's hard to remember that Einstein had a mega-german accent)
07:12:08 <oerjan> got caught in two of the filters
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07:18:56 <hppavilion[2]> (I wonder what accent of german I'm learning- like, obviously, I'm going to have an american accent, but I'll also have an accent based on what my German teacher (who apparently doesn't have an accent according to other germans, despite being from Tennysee)
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07:20:03 <oerjan> just pronounce german like einstein pronounced english, and you'll be fine.
07:23:57 <oerjan> shockingly, irssi doesn't seem to have a simple command for sending ctcp replies.
07:25:24 <oerjan> shachaf: just found it hth
07:25:30 <zzo38> Can you use NOTICE command?
07:25:52 <oerjan> shachaf: no, because i'd already found it
07:26:04 <oerjan> sent the reply a second before
07:26:26 <shachaf> the point is, do you want to encourage the behavior
07:26:30 <shachaf> not just this isolated incident
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07:27:44 <shachaf> i can't decipher the previous acronym
07:28:03 <shachaf> i mean not the latest one but the one before
07:28:20 <oerjan> that's very meta-appropriate, in fact
07:30:44 <shachaf> mine was: that would have helped if only i had not found it first
07:31:38 <oerjan> `learn tanstaaha so please stop using them twh
07:31:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'tanstaaha': tanstaaha so please stop using them twh
07:32:45 <shachaf> `sedlast s# twh#. That would help.#;s# #, #
07:32:48 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanstaaha//tanstaaha, so please stop using them. That would help.
07:32:51 <oerjan> anyway, it was "those acronyms are unreadable, that does not help"
07:33:25 <oerjan> shachaf: how hypercritical
07:33:42 <shachaf> Have you ever been helped by a hairy toe?
07:33:51 <oerjan> you removed the hypocrisy tdnh
07:34:07 <shachaf> why would the dogs care about hypocrisy
07:34:25 <shachaf> wait, hyperccriticial/hypocritical
07:34:30 <shachaf> i'm missing a pun of some sort
07:34:57 <oerjan> clearly by removing hypocrisy, you are creating hypercrisy, duh
07:35:31 <oerjan> . o O ( what's duh an acronym of again )
07:36:20 <shachaf> You were talking about the sed
07:38:11 <oerjan> `learn aha would be a helpful acronym, but has a shedding problem.
07:38:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'aha': aha would be a helpful acronym, but has a shedding problem.
07:38:18 <shachaf> `learn AHA is a helpful acronym for American Heart Association.
07:38:21 <HackEgo> Relearned 'aha': AHA is a helpful acronym for American Heart Association.
07:39:23 <shachaf> You should revert my edit.
07:40:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
07:47:51 <HackEgo> Your mysterious reanimate œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
07:48:02 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#reanimate#helpful#
07:48:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious helpful œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
07:48:41 <shachaf> Is it still true that when you try to remember a word, "amortized" pops up?
07:48:58 <shachaf> i just found out the identity of Betty Crocker
07:49:03 <shachaf> or the identity of [redacted]
07:50:34 <oerjan> shachaf: it might be, i haven't tried to remember a word in a while
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09:13:15 <fizzie> Phew, finally some internets.
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15:53:05 <alercah> fizzie: an internet? where?
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16:04:07 <fizzie> It came out of the wall at home.
16:28:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dbfi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49696&oldid=30552 * Nthern * (+0) typo correction: CGBSI should be CGBFI
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17:13:50 <gamemanj> if I saw internets coming out of the walls, I'd jump out a window to avoid being crushed.
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18:34:57 <\oren\> President of the Phillipines Duterte threatens to eat terrorists.
18:35:29 <\oren\> "with salt and vinegar"
18:36:24 <myname> i like terrorists the most with fresh grilling marks
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18:52:02 <myname> anybody ever made some kind of a todo list for df-likes? i know there is that kind of stuff für roguelikes
19:00:15 <zzo38> I have not seen for either
19:06:47 <myname> roguelike howtwos usually advice you to hardcode levels at first and stuff
19:07:09 <myname> which makes lot of sense in that point
19:07:21 <myname> but is completely irrelevant for df likes
19:08:57 <zzo38> One forum I go on has now added a field in the user profile for RDF link (which says it can be used not only for RDF but also for RSS or Atom), although currently there is no way of automatically reading that file on the forum server since that would be more difficult to program and furthermore would cause problems when they upgrade the forum software.
19:09:32 <zzo38> myname: Well, I don't know df likes working, but I suppose what you said can be work for roguelike
19:09:51 <zzo38> What other advice did they give?
19:11:35 <myname> i'd have to look it up, i read that quite a while ago
19:12:02 <myname> but imho roguelikes and df likes are way too different to use similar approaches in design
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20:06:15 <Slereah> Is there a way to implement combinators using C# delegates without getting stack overflows
20:06:30 <Slereah> Doing it via string modification is straighforward enough
20:07:48 <Slereah> For instance, if I pick the Turing combinator U, then ``UUI = `I``UUI = ``UUI
20:07:56 <Slereah> Infinite loop but the string size doesn't change
20:08:22 <Slereah> But if I do it via delegates, the recursive function calls makes the stack quickly overflow
20:08:27 <Slereah> Is there a way around this
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20:16:00 <zzo38> I don't know how is C# working
20:21:55 <alercah> change the size of the C# stack?
20:25:41 <Slereah> that is not really a v. good solution
20:25:49 <Slereah> It will overflow in 3 seconds instead of 1
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20:34:23 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( There should be a programmer religion with numerology in hex )
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20:42:24 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: your random number generator came up with 0x600DD065! you will have good luck with animals today
20:48:28 <\oren\> with your birthdate and the current angle between the sun and the planet Ceres
20:48:53 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Seed with birthday, result is modulo Ceres?
20:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> (seed with birthdate via day^3+month^2+year using the reformed calendar)
20:52:02 <\oren\> My position on planets is that anything going around the sun that is round is a planet by the way
20:52:30 <\oren\> Ceres is spherical, therefore is a planet, not an asteroid
20:53:03 <Taneb> What about that tennis ball I lost in space that one time
20:54:16 <\oren\> Taneb: that's a very small artificial planet
20:55:28 <\oren\> the whole clearing their neighbourhood thing is just a stupid excuse to preven their being hundreds of planets beyond Neptune
20:56:36 <pikhq> ... and between Mars and Earth.
20:56:58 <\oren\> pikhq: there are very few spherical asteroids actually
20:57:25 <Taneb> I remember the first time I played KSP I got a single kerbal on solar escape orbit, largely by accident
20:58:21 <pikhq> Oh, huh, there's only one known object in the asteroid belt that's spherical.
20:58:33 <pikhq> Dwarf planet Ceres.
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20:59:43 <\oren\> pikhq: yeah. basically my position comes down to saying that the things the IAU is calling "dwarf planets" should still fall into the category of "planets"
21:01:25 <pikhq> \oren\: I don't really see why though -- clearing the neighborhood seems not-insignificant.
21:01:47 <shachaf> "What's the degree of (x-a)(x-b)...(x-z)?"
21:02:33 <izabera> shachaf: does that include x-x ?
21:02:52 <\oren\> pikhq: it's defined arbitrarily though. There are a ton of asteroids that pass close to all the planets
21:13:33 <\oren\> I think it's just an excuse so they don't have to keep revising the number of planets
21:15:56 <HackEgo> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
21:17:13 <hppavilion[1]> He said that, despite nonviolence being the best strategy /usually/, Hitler was kind of bad and we need to fight him anyway
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21:35:43 <gamemanj> I say Pluto is a planet just so that we can keep things consistent as to how they were, and then say "the 2000s were weird".
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21:36:30 <myname> there is an episode of rick&morty about that
21:37:25 <HackEgo> You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
21:37:34 <HackEgo> gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
21:38:27 <shachaf> `learn Tarator is a Bulgarian soup, traditionally served cold for hot summer days.
21:38:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'tarator': Tarator is a Bulgarian soup, traditionally served cold for hot summer days.
21:39:18 <myname> why doesnjt it spell "szoup"?
21:43:18 <HackEgo> 2015-08-13 <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2013-07-31 <Bike> revert \ 2013-07-31 <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 3
21:43:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/gazspaczo \ wisdom/disflagrate \ wisdom/szoup
21:43:41 <HackEgo> gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
21:43:47 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
21:43:51 <HackEgo> disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
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21:55:57 <FreeFull> `wisdom lecsó Delicious hungarian stew, made with peppers and tomatoes
21:55:58 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
21:56:10 <FreeFull> I don't remember how to make new ones
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22:04:36 <zzo38> Are there any languages that are LL(1) but are not LR(1)?
22:15:55 <Taneb> shachaf, is Bulgarian LL(1) but not LR(1)?
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22:34:05 <\oren\> argh, I'm loding my credentials as nativ english speaker
22:34:33 <\oren\> i can't stop making grammatical and spelling problems
22:35:21 <\oren\> I wrote "with suport of" instead of "with support for"
22:37:21 <\oren\> and above you can see more malapropisms
22:41:10 <izabera> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Zippers
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00:35:35 <oerjan> @tell Slereah <Slereah> Is there a way to implement combinators using C# delegates without getting stack overflows <-- i suspect this is when you need a trampoline.
00:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> OK, the wikipedia Philosophy trick is freaking me out right now
00:46:38 <hppavilion[1]> And is it possible to have a chain where it does not?
00:47:04 <oerjan> mainly because articles about concrete things tend to start with a link to something slightly more abstract
00:47:32 <oerjan> and philosophy is about the most abstract there is.
00:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But is there, like, an inalienable reason? Like, MediaWiki code?
00:48:14 <oerjan> so unless you have a _short_ loop (which probably exist), you'll probably keep going up.
00:48:45 <oerjan> there's no intrinsic necessity there - after all, the trick _excludes_ the most mechanical links.
00:49:54 <oerjan> i think people in the channel searched for an exception once, and i think we found one.
00:50:06 <oerjan> unless it was a variant game.
00:50:57 <oerjan> well sure, it _usually_ does.
00:52:09 <hppavilion[1]> I love how https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics needs a citation that it is, indeed, science
00:52:37 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Does Uncyclopedia have something like this? Or even just The Wiki? )
00:52:56 <oerjan> i dunno about our wiki
00:53:10 <oerjan> we have the bf derivative game, of course.
00:53:15 <hppavilion[1]> Also, wikipedia vandalism idea: Make all the loops have a distance of 1 (so in EVERY article, the first link is DIRECTLY to philosophy)
00:54:22 <oerjan> i'm not sure i remember the rules, but you are basically clicking random until you either get a language you made, or a bf derivative. +1 for the former, -1 for the latter. or thereabouts.
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00:55:28 <hppavilion[1]> "In classical [[philosophy]], Adolf Hitler is the archetypical [[Assholery (philosphy)|asshole]]..."
00:55:44 <oerjan> is there a misspelling there
00:56:41 <hppavilion[1]> ("Adolf" is hard to spell, because I feel like it should be "Adolph")
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00:57:24 <oerjan> that's because you don't have the german spirit (Deutsche Volksgeist)
00:57:53 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler applies
00:58:52 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to mathematicize ethics, but I fear that Godellery poses a problem
00:59:38 <oerjan> mathematicizing ethics killed godel
00:59:58 <oerjan> (by making not eating seem ethical, i guess)
01:00:40 <oerjan> i fail to see how your objection applies hth
01:01:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Question: When mathematicizing ethics, should one take the axiom of choice?
01:02:03 <oerjan> <zzo38> Are there any languages that are LL(1) but are not LR(1)? <-- iirc no.
01:02:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: one should either take it or leave it, no third option hth
01:29:06 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Shouldn't eligibility to hold office start at 18? )
01:29:58 <oerjan> pretty sure that varies by country hth
01:35:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Well, if the age of majority is different, then change 18 to that)
01:36:52 <oerjan> well, why should it be tied to age rather than skill, anyway
01:37:10 <oerjan> 18 is no guarantee of anything...
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02:16:27 <shachaf> do you have any book corecommendations
02:16:36 <shachaf> that one isn't even the best book
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02:57:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49697&oldid=49693 * Qwerp-Derp * (+412) Added + operator in wiki
03:05:03 <copumpkin> shachaf: not really, don't read books much these days
03:05:23 <copumpkin> the last thing I remember reading was that thriller they made into a movie about the dude with the disappeared wife
03:10:07 <shachaf> I think I watched the movie but didn't read the book.
03:12:15 <copumpkin> I finished it the night I started it
03:17:16 <oerjan> dvorak is such a reassuring robot.
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03:41:56 * Sgeo doesn't actually know which robot is which.
03:42:07 <Sgeo> (Well, I know Clippy and ... Sam's robot)
03:42:28 <Sgeo> Ok so there are a number of robots I know
03:46:20 <oerjan> dvorak was like the second robot to show up in the series, i think...
03:47:45 <oerjan> that seems to have been sawtooth.
03:52:11 <oerjan> fourth, then. qwerty was third.
03:53:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: I once read a mystery book printed on red and blue pages.
03:57:35 <oerjan> i also once read such a book.
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04:04:48 <oerjan> hm apparently only some editions had the colored text
04:16:05 <shachaf> I can't remember whether my version had that.
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06:42:01 <hppavilion[1]> Standard Deviation: Square root of the average of the squares of the average value minus each single value; sqrt(sum([((sum(vals)/len(vals))-k)^2 for k in vals])/len(vals))
06:42:07 <hppavilion[1]> Even-more-standard deviation: The same thing, but higher; cbrt(sum([((sqrt(sum([k^2 for k in vals])/len(vals)))-k)^3 for k in vals])/len(vals))
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07:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's calculated by finding the point p such that the sum of the distances to all other points is the smallest
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16:28:17 <\oren\> wait, there are people who say heigth and not height?
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17:30:33 <lifthrasiir> rfist osecnd ithrd rfouth ffith xsith nseveth heigth nnith nteth
17:42:53 <\oren\> Argh, why won't chrome allow https: to be redirected!
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18:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... what's the name of the reverse of the root mean square...
18:23:48 <hppavilion[1]> (Square of the arithmetic means of the square roots)
18:26:29 <fizzie> It's just "power mean with an exponent of 1/2".
18:29:14 <fizzie> There's a bunch of hits for it.
18:29:20 <hppavilion[1]> And you can take the asymptotic square mean root to get ASMR
18:29:45 <fizzie> Though many of them are just hypotheticals.
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20:43:18 <zzo38> On Saturday when internet was not working I somehow received an email messages that was dated from Thursday, it said my computer received it on Thursday too, but I didn't receive it. Do you know what is wrong with it, is there some sort of misconfiguration on my end?
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22:22:34 <HackEgo> [U+0273 LATIN SMALL LETTER N WITH RETROFLEX HOOK]
22:22:57 <HackEgo> [U+019D LATIN CAPITAL LETTER N WITH LEFT HOOK]
22:23:28 * hppavilion[1] prays there's a LATIN CAPITAL LETTER N WITH RETROFLEX HOOK
22:24:03 <fizzie> There's only one LATIN CAPITAL LETTER with a RETROFLEX HOOK, and it's T.
22:25:21 <hppavilion[1]> Someone needs to bug the unicode consortium about this
22:25:54 <zzo38> You could add it anyways even if it isn't part of Unicode, if you want to do so
22:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Until then, computer representations will be based on X-SAMPA)
22:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> (X-SAMPA ɳ is n`, so capital ɳ will be written N` until further notice)
22:27:51 <zzo38> You don't have to, you could just make your own code for it
22:28:14 <HackEgo> [U+2965 DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB LEFT BESIDE DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB RIGHT]
22:35:14 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... If we call '.' a "point", ',' a "pause", '!' an "exclamation stop", and '?' an "interrogation stop" (and, of course, '‽' an "exclamatory interrogation stop" or "interrobang" informally), then we can also have exclamation pauses, interrogative pauses, and exclamatory interrogation pauses ("interrobang pauses")
22:36:37 <zzo38> I have read someone has made up such thing before, I think
22:39:19 <HackEgo> olist 1051: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
22:42:22 <zzo38> Now my RDF parser program in JavaScript has a few bug fixed and now supports hexadecimal integer literals (this is a nonstandard feature, and furthermore it does automatically convert to decimal in the returned RDF data).
22:48:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm pretty sure Unicode already has inverted interrobang, because if anybody were to start using interrobangs it'd be spanish-speakers (as they already decided proper punctuation is important enough to make sure you know they did it at the beginning), so of course there's an inverted one because they need it
22:48:55 <hppavilion[1]> But I like the exclamation pause and interrogation pause
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23:32:57 <pikhq> Yeah, Unicode has the gnaborretni.
23:33:28 <pikhq> U+2E18 INVERTED INTERROBANG
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23:39:36 <fizzie> It also has the HEAVY INTERROBANG ORNAMENT.
23:40:39 <fizzie> I wonder if Metal Gear fans use the VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS character as a joke.
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00:07:07 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Perhaps #esoteric should start using Chess Annotation Symbols (??, ?, ?!, !?, !, !!) constantly, possibly when livereading active conversations )
00:07:36 <oerjan> . o O ( that idea is ?? )
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00:08:43 <fizzie> ITYM ⁇ ⁈ ⁉ and ‼ HTH HAND
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00:09:54 <fizzie> ¿What, compose-?-? just yields a ¿?
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00:12:30 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1975 confuses me...
00:13:07 <hppavilion[1]> And in the event of 9-9 he wanted the current champion (which would be him) to keep the title
00:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> In the event of 9-9 in a "first to win 10" format, wouldn't the correct response be "play one more game, the winner is the overall winner"?
00:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, wait, I guess the rationale is that if the score is 9-9, the players are about evenly matched and the 10th game is pretty much decided by a coin toss...
00:14:54 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( How about "first to win 3 more games than the other has won?" (or some s/3/n/ for integer n)? )
00:15:59 <oerjan> that could in theory last forever
00:22:13 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the expected value of the absolute distance after N steps of 1-d random walk is something non-constant, which I guess would mean it'd be increasingly unlikely to continue? (Of course you could presumably use that as an argument against any sort of constant difference N as well, since it'd mean exactly evenly matched participants would reach that disparity eventually.)
00:26:42 <oerjan> at least sqrt(n) disparity hth
00:27:12 <oerjan> (that may or may not be the right order)
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00:33:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, I think all LL(1) languages are LR(1). I could be wrong though.
00:34:24 <wob_jonas> I'm looking for a mechanical keyboard. Why does it seem like all good mechanical keyboards are horribly expensive?
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00:39:32 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure all LL(1) _languages_ are LR(1). not quite sure about _grammars_.
00:40:08 <wob_jonas> I want a clicky keyboard for home with 50 g force and 101/104 key US layout.
00:40:13 <oerjan> (for the first, an LL(1) recognizer is pretty obviously implementable as a deterministic pushdown automaton)
00:42:16 <wob_jonas> Seriously, they're horribly expensive.
00:42:21 <oerjan> well, an LR(1) grammar is one which needs only 1 token lookahead at the end of a production, while iirc an LL(1) grammar is one that needs only one token lookahead at the _beginning_ iirc. assuming that, it's pretty trivial for grammars too.
00:42:22 <wob_jonas> Why do they have to cost this much?
00:42:42 <oerjan> (to be sure that the production is chosen)
00:42:49 <wob_jonas> How did people even have keyboards for their computers back twenty or thirty years ago when mechanical keyboards were the norm?
00:43:12 <fizzie> It's the market in action hth
00:44:33 <fizzie> You can do other kinds of keyboards cheaper and satisfy the majority of people and so on and so forth.
00:47:13 <zzo38> I like the IBM Model F keyboard
00:47:59 <hppavilion[1]> Game: Total Shuffle Chess (AKA Chess60277490498889369439384431508790906881064404967751680)
00:49:17 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] ------###
00:49:18 <hppavilion[1]> (well, it might actually be more like Chess15069372624722342359846107877197726720266101241937920 as castling becomes irrelevant and/or impossible)
00:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Your addiction to swatting indicates deeper issues, and that you're a broken human being worth less than fertilizer
00:52:11 <oerjan> i don't find your putdown as deterministic as my swatter hth
00:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I don't think CS has a concept of /how/ deterministic something is; only whether or not it is
00:57:39 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently Bobby Fischer was an anti-semitic asshole (also a holocaust denier)
00:58:53 <oerjan> the CS thing, that is. the other i'm ignoring.
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01:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> I think he was... he said he agreed with Nietzsche that "religion is just to dull the senses of the people"... and yet he published "My 60 Memorable Games" because he thought the rapture was coming soon and figured he'd make some cash first
01:02:23 <oerjan> one day soon, deep learning will allow us to say /ignore hppavilion[1] when he brings up ancient crap
01:03:06 <wob_jonas> "We only ship to Worldwide." -- perfect Engrish grammar
01:03:09 <oerjan> your addiction to bringing up crap indicates deeper
01:03:09 <oerjan> issues, and that you're a broken human being worth less
01:04:35 <oerjan> i have paste_detect_time = 100msecs and that's somehow not enough.
01:04:41 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: You can only get their stuff in Worldwide, Massachippissippi hth.
01:06:18 <hppavilion[1]> I needed a joke and that was the best I could come up with.
01:08:46 <oerjan> i was going to bring up Usa, Japan but wikipedia crushed my childhood again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa,_%C5%8Cita#Product_labeling
01:11:05 <oerjan> (wait, does this count as ancient crap, argh)
01:11:40 <wob_jonas> Done. I've ordered a mechanical keyboard.
01:11:55 <oerjan> YOU CANNOT DOWNLOAD A KEYBOARD, SILLY
01:12:24 <wob_jonas> I'm not downloading it. It will get here the slow way, on legs.
01:12:40 <wob_jonas> Takes some time because it has to go around the globe, and not even in a straight line.
01:13:06 <wob_jonas> (Can't withstand the pressures deep inside Earth.)
01:13:25 <oerjan> do the legs at least not have to swim
01:13:49 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I think it can take a ship or something
01:14:28 <wob_jonas> Not if it's only a small part of the route, I think.
01:15:16 <wob_jonas> But maybe it doesn't even need a ship, and can come through all land the long way.
01:17:04 <wob_jonas> wob_jonas: I don't think so. It's shipping from Hong Kong, and probably made there.
01:17:12 <wob_jonas> I'm not really sure where these things are made really.
01:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> TIL "Philippines" is spelled with a 'ph' and "Filipino" is spelled with an 'f'
01:25:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well in norwegian, they're both spelled with F hth
01:26:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you'll probably need a work permit for that hth
01:27:10 <oerjan> or possibly, you could find a norwegian to marry.
01:27:59 <oerjan> i suspect you're unlikely to be granted political asylym, anyway.
01:31:31 <hppavilion[1]> Most likely scenario is a Trump presidency, which in the event of I'm genuinely considering leaving the country
01:35:53 <oerjan> even with a trump presidency, political asylum may not be automatic hth
01:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> And Norway wasn't high on the list of destinations
01:37:48 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU NOT BUT NORWAY FIRST
01:38:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's a great country, but it isn't primarily english-speaking
01:38:43 <wob_jonas> oerjan: Norway is nice, I visited in August
01:38:59 <wob_jonas> hpp: what? Norway is as good as English speaking. most people there speak English, you can get by with English.
01:39:14 <wob_jonas> and besides, if you already know English, then Norwegian isn't that hard to learn
01:39:15 <alercah> my roommate and I are experimentingn with canadian banking regulations
01:39:29 <alercah> I wrote him my rent cheque on the inside flap of a macaroni carton in sharpie
01:39:56 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Are the Canadian bank rules that you don't have to write cheques on the official paper?
01:40:00 <wob_jonas> oerjan: did you really remain the only Norwegian regular in the channel?
01:40:39 <oerjan> wob_jonas: there was another recently, but e hasn't been active enough for me to remember who it was...
01:41:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's our northernmost county (excluding svalbard)
01:41:20 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's Finland+Denmark... but it's in Norway...
01:41:23 <wob_jonas> .oO( minpoijjikop isn't a regular )
01:42:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: funny, we also had an episode in the channel a few years ago when someone found out about the name Finnmark (possibly from me) and was amazed by it
01:42:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: never heard of that town
01:43:09 <oerjan> it's in Hedmark, in the south of the country.
01:43:12 <wob_jonas> Ah, apparently Finnmark is a county within Norway
01:43:20 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: yes, as I understand them, you can write a cheque on anything so long as it contains the requisite information
01:43:21 <oerjan> wob_jonas: I SAID THAT
01:43:41 <hppavilion[1]> (it also might not be big enough that anybody knows, the same way I've never heard of Arnold, Nebraska)
01:44:07 <wob_jonas> hpp: or maybe it's so far to the north that nobody goes there
01:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, Google Maps only knows about one in... Meraker? I assume that's a Norwegian county?
01:46:57 <wob_jonas> It would be nice to know for me too which places within Europe are good for living and working in case I want to leave.
01:47:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw the Finn in Finnmark is the same word as Fin in Finland. afaik (1) there may be some finnish-norwegians ("kvener") there (2) people probably didn't consider the distinction between Finnish and Sami that important back then
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01:49:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw Trønnes is a "grend", which is very small, so more a village than a town.
01:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> (not really sure where any of the boundaries are... in my mind, village/town and town/city are interchangeable, and at the same time "city" can describe pretty much anything)
01:51:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: Meråker is a municipality. it's part of Nord-Trøndelag county.
01:52:49 <oerjan> btw the Trønnes i found (on norwegian wikipedia) is not there. it apparently has the distinction of being the first place in norway to get a home for the elderly.
01:53:33 <wob_jonas> hpp: Norway has fjords, not fnords
01:53:52 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I was under the impression a fnord is a co-fjord
01:54:00 <oerjan> well no one expects you to see the fnords
01:54:03 <hppavilion[1]> My browser abbreviates titles when I have too many tabs, and it abbreviated "Grandmaster (chess) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" to "Grandma". I can't complain.
01:54:42 <fungot> wob_jonas: guile was covered a few minutes
01:54:44 <oerjan> i don't know, never heard of ania before.
01:55:26 <hppavilion[1]> Will your brain rearrange things to fill in the gap (so if you have a page where a different word on each line, and one of the words is "fnord", will you see a blank line or will all the later words move down?)
01:55:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think that according to some, a city needs to contain a cathedral hth
01:55:52 <oerjan> anyway, Trønnes in Hedmark has only about 100 families
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01:56:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Can we define a gigalopolis as 1000000000 or more individuals?)
01:56:48 <wob_jonas> hpp: or a city-planet like Corouscant or Trantor or Ravnica
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01:58:41 <wob_jonas> So anyway, keyboard is ordered, but I'll also have to buy a new computer. I'll have to choose a motherboard and stuff.
01:59:00 <oerjan> then there's dyson spheres, i guess
01:59:49 <oerjan> and beyond that it seems a bit hard to get a continuous city. well, not that it's easy with a dyson sphere, i think those aren't actually realistically solid?
02:00:27 <wob_jonas> oerjan: Trantor isn't realistic either
02:00:28 <oerjan> (just need to invent scrith[sp] first)
02:01:29 <HackEgo> tas//TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
02:02:07 <oerjan> gigalo- is a little scow. you're basically taking the greek prefix megalo- (from which mega- comes), and pretending it contains a mega- prefix.
02:02:48 <oerjan> giganto- would be more parallel.
02:03:09 <oerjan> is the next terato-, hm
02:03:54 <oerjan> and from there i'm not sure they come from genuine greek.
02:05:06 <oerjan> hm actually it does, but not in a useful way, peta- is from penta-
02:07:38 <HackEgo> 2016-05-07 <oerjan> ` sed -i \'s/A //\' wisdom/tas \ 2016-05-07 <oerjan> ` mv wisdom/ta{,s}; sed -i \'s/^/A /\' wisdom/tas
02:08:10 <HackEgo> 2016-05-07 <oerjan> ` mv wisdom/ta{,s}; sed -i \'s/^/A /\' wisdom/tas \ 2016-05-06 <coppro> learn TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
02:08:23 <oerjan> it really didn't seem like my style :P
02:09:06 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:09:12 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, and histograms.
02:09:38 * oerjan gives shachaf a dowg snack
02:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, I took mega- from megalopolis and replaced it with giga- (because metric)
02:11:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's what i said
02:14:33 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
02:15:07 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
02:15:31 <oerjan> `slwd culprits//s/the lists //
02:15:49 <oerjan> `slwd culprit//s/the lists //
02:15:51 <HackEgo> wisdom/culprit//`culprits` is a program that lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
02:16:14 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/culprit{,s}
02:16:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: terato- is somewhat different. hm.
02:18:30 <oerjan> well, it's a very cromulent word.
02:19:54 <hppavilion[1]> (but it says comparative is "more ginormous" and superlative is "most ginormous", when it would correctly be "ginormouser" and "ginormousest")
02:19:59 <\oren\> I tought it was spelled gynormous
02:20:01 <wob_jonas> oerjan: no, I think terato is right. I think it's greek for monster-like, and related to the same word the metric prefix tera comes from
02:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, that's a domain-specific thing used by OB/GYNs
02:21:15 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, why doesn't English include the opposite of -er and -est for "more" and "most"? Something to say "less" and "least"?)
02:22:35 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> What's "mg"? <-- velarized m, maybe?
02:23:18 <oerjan> of course, n can also be velarized, which seems confusing.
02:23:21 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I don't think a velarized m makes sense
02:24:50 <wob_jonas> hpp: ɱ in IPA is not a velarized m
02:24:58 <oerjan> wob_jonas: oh, because m doesn't use the tongue to start with? but m can be palatalized...
02:25:40 <oerjan> i'm not really good at distinguish velarization for anything but l, anyway.
02:25:58 <wob_jonas> hpp: [ɱ] in IPA is the the nasal stop version articulated at the same place as f, which you get from some speakers when they pronounce nf or mf
02:26:58 <oerjan> wob_jonas: most likely terastios is also related to the same word, so...
02:27:19 <wob_jonas> called "labiodental" because it's made with your upper teeth pressed to your lower lips, and "labio" means lips and "dent" means teeth
02:27:30 <wob_jonas> the names there actually make sense
02:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> 'm' is the bilabial nasal because your lips are pushed together (in the exaggerated version you're taught in preschool)
02:28:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: long words in english don't usually take -er and -est comparatives. hth.
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02:28:45 <wob_jonas> these are easy to understand because they ([m], [f], [T]) are the three common places of articulation that you can actually see easily from lip-reading ([m] only when not at the start of a word)
02:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: English is my L1. I think I know the rules. hth.
02:28:56 <hppavilion[1]> Then... I have no idea what the equivalent of ng is for m
02:29:05 <wob_jonas> the other stuff is in your mouth, so you like need X-ray to understand them
02:29:15 <wob_jonas> X-ray has been done of course, but it's not something you see every day
02:29:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (It MUST have historically at some point...) <-- well norwegian doesn't, and i don't remember any indoeuropean language i've seen doing so.
02:30:38 <hppavilion[1]> You can understand stuff without x-ray if you just pay attention to your mouth
02:32:31 <oerjan> wob_jonas: hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_phonology#Consonants has velarized mˠ
02:36:13 <Phantom__Hoover> i was reading about velarised m recently because it finally answered my long-running mystery of why mh is pronounced /v/ some of the time and /w/ others
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02:38:23 <oerjan> argh irish distinguishes nʲ and ɲ
02:39:16 <hppavilion[1]> I can't see the difference between the m in 'symphony' and the m in 'rum'
02:40:33 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, I was discussing that there's apparently a difference with my mother. She asked why there were labia in my nose. I had to explain the root to her.)
02:42:54 <oerjan> also distinguishes n̪ˠ from ŋ
02:45:02 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: oh so the mh in your name is pronounced like w?
02:48:53 <oerjan> oh right, omh refers to another table
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02:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a name for the velarized m? "velar bilabial nasal" didn't turn up anything
02:51:35 <oerjan> iiuc it lengthens the o
02:51:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: velar and velarized are not the same thing
02:52:55 <oerjan> however, i don't think wikipedia has articles for all combinations with velarized... it's an adjustment you can apply to many consonants.
02:53:05 <oerjan> see the velarization article
02:53:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: velar is primary articulation, but velarized means a secondary articulation in _addition_ to the primary one.
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02:54:03 <oerjan> same for palatal and palatalized
02:55:01 <hppavilion[1]> (also, is there any relation between n and h, or is it just similar symbols?)
02:55:44 <oerjan> they're presumably both inherited from the phoenician alphabet
02:57:29 <oerjan> n from Nun. apparently it descends from the egyptian symbol for snake, "djet", and was used for a sound like english J there
02:58:11 <oerjan> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N)
02:58:48 <oerjan> h from Heth, via greek Heta before that lost the H
02:59:17 <oerjan> i see, that explains why eta looks like H
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02:59:41 <oerjan> "The original Semitic letter Heth most likely represented the voiceless pharyngeal fricative (ħ). The form of the letter probably stood for a fence or posts."
02:59:49 <oerjan> anyway, those articles say more.
03:01:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway, n is pretty far from h in sound, and always has been.
03:02:48 <oerjan> unlike U,V,W and Y, which all descend from the same letter hth
03:04:06 <oerjan> oh, and apparently F too
03:05:59 <oerjan> first greek adapted F into a vowel Y, then latin got F with the original sound, borrowed greek Y as V, then borrowed it _again_ as Y, and then created U to distinguish when V was a vowel.
03:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ſ looks too much like it's supposed to be esh
03:06:56 <oerjan> and then someone created W from V, i guess.
03:11:26 <oerjan> actually greek had both F and Y, but lost the w sound that the former represented.
03:11:47 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F#History
03:14:06 <hppavilion[1]> I was just looking for something similar to k, but without the sudden stop
03:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> And I wound up in Germany with the voiceless velar fricative
03:17:02 <oerjan> *Ach du liebe Phonetik
03:26:44 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is there a letter that completes n:m::h:_? I can't find any such thing, but it'd be fun to mess with people with )
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05:14:07 <oerjan> looks like wikipedia is celebrating Star Trek's 50th anniversary
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06:01:56 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: k
06:02:40 <Cale> mathematical convention :)
06:03:05 <Cale> Just as n and m get used as variables of a similar sort, h and k sometimes do as well
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06:04:03 <oerjan> Cale: i think he meant visually
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06:05:36 <Cale> So like ɰ rotated 180 degrees
06:06:01 <HackEgo> [U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG]
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06:06:24 <HackEgo> U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG \ UTF-8: c9 b0 UTF-16BE: 0270 Decimal: ɰ \ ɰ \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0271 LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK \ UTF-8: c9 b1 UTF-16BE: 0271 Decimal: ɱ \ ɱ (Ɱ) \ Uppercase: U+2C6E \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \
06:06:43 <oerjan> `unicode M WITH | grep 'M WITH'
06:06:45 <HackEgo> U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG \ UTF-8: c9 b0 UTF-16BE: 0270 Decimal: ɰ \ ɰ \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0271 LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK \ UTF-8: c9 b1 UTF-16BE: 0271 Decimal: ɱ \ ɱ (Ɱ) \ Uppercase: U+2C6E \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \
06:06:52 <oerjan> `` unicode M WITH | grep 'M WITH'
06:07:07 <oerjan> `` unicode 'M WITH' | grep 'M WITH'
06:07:09 <HackEgo> U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG \ U+0271 LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK \ U+04CD CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER EM WITH TAIL \ U+04CE CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EM WITH TAIL \ U+0616 ARABIC SMALL HIGH LIGATURE ALEF WITH LAM WITH YEH \ U+06B5 ARABIC LETTER LAM WITH SMALL V \ U+06B6 ARABIC LETTER LAM WITH DOT ABOVE \ U+06B7 ARABIC LETTER LAM WIT
06:07:27 <oerjan> `` unicode 'M WITH' | grep ' M WITH'
06:07:28 <HackEgo> U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG \ U+0271 LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK
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06:28:09 <Robdgreat> ah yes, now I remember why I ignored HackEgo
06:44:18 <Robdgreat> I only ignored the unicode messages
06:44:38 <Robdgreat> I'd miss 98% of the stuff in the channel once again if I ignored it totally again
06:45:09 <Robdgreat> I'm trying to pick a couple acoustic tunes for open mic tonight
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07:13:56 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, apparently part of the reason anime looks the way it is is that- when it was done with cel animation- it was produced in literally the stupidest way possible
07:14:13 <hppavilion[1]> The animation is done first, then the voice actors try to sync with the movement
07:14:26 <hppavilion[1]> Rather than taking the soundtrack and making it look like the characters are talking from there
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07:36:58 <hppavilion[1]> By which I mean we used math to render the entire movie in 4D (and projected down to 3D then to 2D for screen viewing)
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14:36:29 <wob_jonas> Oh man, they REALLY made this stuff watertight.
14:37:20 <wob_jonas> So if I buy stuff on PayPal, then I must pay PayPal's currency conversion fees, which are way higher than the currency conversion I can get from my bank. But there's no way to actually use the cheaper fees at the bank:
14:39:34 <wob_jonas> I can transfer money from my bank to PayPal, but if I transfer anything but HUF, then I have to pay the international bank transfer fee, even if I'm transferring from my domestic foreign currency account to Paypal's domestic account, and that fee has a high fixed minimum regardless the amount.
14:40:07 <alercah> for a while I maintained a USD credit card for that exact reason
14:40:20 <alercah> but nowadays I don't buy through paypal often enough for it to matter
14:41:08 <wob_jonas> Or I can pay from a bank card with PayPal, but then they charge the card in the native currency of the bank card, and I can't cheaply have extra bank cards in multiple currencies, even though I totally can have _accounts_ in those currencies, for the extra cards are either inpossible or have a high monthlyfee.
14:42:13 <wob_jonas> I could save on the costs only if I transferred a large amount of money to PayPal at a single time, but for that I'd have to predict the currency I'm going to buy stuff on PayPal, and that's quite unpredictable:
14:42:26 <Cale> Yeah, all my income goes through PayPal right now, and that conversion business is kind of annoying.
14:42:41 <wob_jonas> People sell things on PayPal in USD or CAD (from Asia or America) and in GBP or EUR (from Europe).
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14:43:47 <wob_jonas> I can try to change to another bank for this, for if another bank gives better conditions, I could transfer, though it could be a bit of a hassle.
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14:45:04 <wob_jonas> And I don't buy expensive stuff in PayPal, only cheap stuff.
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14:49:26 <Taneb> Cale, you aren't a face I see in here often
14:50:01 <Taneb> Which, to be fair, might be because I don't pay attention very much
14:50:41 <izabera> or because you don't see faces on irc
14:51:26 <Taneb> izabera, well, *you* don't
14:51:39 <izabera> what kind of irc are you using?
14:52:10 <izabera> long ago i used kvirc and it had some protocol for avatars
14:52:51 <Taneb> Alternatively, you could try having a really vivid imagination
14:54:25 <wob_jonas> Oh, and the extra problem is, I'm not even sure I can actually transfer currencies other than HUF to PayPal. They only give a single bank account number for transfer, and I'm not sure it's possible for a single account number to receive multiple currencies. I called their customer support,
14:54:57 <wob_jonas> and the lady said I probably can transfer other currencies, but she's not sure, and I should try. And to try, I have to pay the expensive bank transfer fee regardless the amount.
14:56:36 <wob_jonas> Incidentally, calling their customer support on phone is an international call, which also costs a shitton.
14:56:47 <Cale> Taneb: shachaf told me to join when I wrote https://hackage.haskell.org/package/category-printf and I just stuck around, but haven't had much occasion to say a whole lot
14:57:10 <Taneb> Cale, ooh, I hadn't seen thtat!
14:58:46 <wob_jonas> So if you guys have a plan for world domination that seems better than mine and has the side effect of getting rid of this riddiculous "country" and "international" stuff, drop me a line and I might consider supporting you.
14:59:10 <wob_jonas> Because I've had enough of this stupid politics, and maybe an evil dictator ruling with an iron fist could be better.
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15:01:48 <Taneb> Cale, my current "esoteric" project is a property testing library called OneCheck
15:02:22 <Taneb> It tests each property with arbitrary input! One arbitrary input, for speed concerns
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15:04:59 <Cale> You could take advantage of Data.Default
15:05:26 <Taneb> Cale, I'm going more arbitrary than that
15:05:40 <Taneb> https://github.com/Taneb/acme-onecheck/blob/master/src/Test/OneCheck.hs
15:05:53 <\oren\> Today's QC is more gratuitous speculation about how to have sex with robots. ...I guess that's fine, now the name of the comic finally makes sense.
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16:12:08 <Taneb> Most niche data structre I invented then forgot about: the two in one tree heap
16:12:26 <Taneb> A key-key-value thingy that's search tree-ordered on one key and heap-ordered on the other
16:13:40 <gamemanj> so, do you specify 2 keys to get a value,
16:13:44 <gamemanj> or you specify one of the two?
16:15:05 <myname> to get the worst onetime whenever possible?
16:15:42 <Taneb> myname, assuming the keys aren't correlated, the time complexities aren't too bad
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17:09:59 <Taneb> \oren\, I'm implementing it right now
17:12:03 <\oren\> hmm, you know how heapsort makes a heap in an array using power of two offsets... Maybe there should be something like qsort() and bsearch() that uses a heap search
17:17:14 <quintopia> Taneb: what is the advantage? so that you don't have to maintain 2 data structures with the same data?
17:17:34 <Taneb> quintopia, I'm not sure there is one
17:19:25 <quintopia> i know a data structure that doesnt exist but should
17:20:07 <quintopia> an insertion-ordered CompletionRecordDAWG
17:20:39 <Taneb> Directed Acyclic Wiggly Graph?
17:22:27 <quintopia> this would be a dictionary that maps string keys to ... whatever, but also can give you a list of keys that are prefixes of any string and tell you which key comes before and after a given key in insertion order
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18:43:58 <Taneb> I'm no expert, but I'm not sure that this test suite I wrote should start swapping
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20:50:30 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Can one use non-euclidean geometry when drawing perspective to get OH MY GOD WHAT THE HELL drawings? )
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20:53:45 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Imagine a hollow cube, with inset openings on each face. Now imagine that each opening went to a different place.
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20:53:57 <gamemanj> But if that would actually scare someone...
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20:54:30 <gamemanj> Non-euclidean geometry is overrated.
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21:57:24 <HackEgo> ring//Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
21:57:36 <HackEgo> locale//Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
21:57:37 <HackEgo> wumpus//Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
21:57:37 <HackEgo> ghoti//"Ghoti" is a very fishy spelling.
21:57:37 <HackEgo> szoup//A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
21:58:08 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that true? You invented locales?
21:58:13 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you invent pointless topology?
21:58:59 <Taneb> shachaf, locales I invented, but only locally
21:59:57 <Taneb> And I never really saw the point in topology
21:59:58 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you guilty of inventing frames?
22:00:10 <Taneb> No, someone set me up on that one
22:00:38 <HackEgo> A frame is just a complete Heyting algebra. Frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication, if you know what I mean.
22:01:47 <Taneb> I don't like what you're implying there
22:10:38 <zzo38> HSTS is terrible but I can propose a better way: There is a menu that the user can set up arbitrary URI rewriting, and one option can set whether or not automatically adding rules is allowed (disabled by default). If automatically adding rules is allowed by the user setting, then the Strict-Transport-Security header can be used to automatically add/remove rules in this menu, except for rules which the user has locked.
22:12:18 <zzo38> Reporting of errors should not be done, and the user can always override the error; a setting may be provided to only enable the override after a specified number of milliseconds (something that Firefox does with download dialog boxes currently).
22:13:48 <zzo38> The setting for HPKP should be separate, and if enabled, then when there is error the user should be given the options: "Bypass", "New Context", "Change Settings", "Edit HPKP Data", "View Report", "Send Report".
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22:20:47 <Taneb> I'm not sure what the semantics of "insert" should be on a treap
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22:23:48 <\oren\> suppose Jool just rose in the east. you're moving 175 m/s east, so toward Jool. on the other side of kerbin, jool is setting in the west, so the other ship will be moving at 175 m/s away from jool. hence, relative to a ship on the other side of Kerbin, you are moving at 350 m/s.
22:24:22 <Taneb> zzo38, a treap is a purely functional data structure (I am writing this in Haskell) that is a binary tree that is heap ordered by one key and tree ordered by another
22:25:16 <Taneb> I am not sure if insert should clobber other entries with the same tree-ordering key
22:25:28 <Taneb> (by tree-ordered I mean ordered like a binary search tree)
22:25:56 <Zarutian> \oren\: I take it that the semimajor and inclanation of the two orbits are the same
22:28:05 <Zarutian> \oren\: at least for the purposes of mutual docking
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23:16:55 <_46bit> qualifications to be here: I spent a day of work trying to command an FTP server to join IRC and talk in a channel
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23:18:33 <izabera> you wrote an irc client in ftp?
23:19:08 <Taneb> izabera, didn't you write a compiler in Bash
23:19:23 <izabera> well yes but it compiles brainfuck to bash
23:19:30 <izabera> and does several optimizations
23:19:46 <izabera> not that hard, optimizations aside
23:20:40 <Taneb> I still need to implement the fancy brainfuck optimization thingy I thought up to see if it actually works
23:21:52 <fizzie> You can use FTP from client C to transfer files from server A to server B without passing through C (and without collecting $200).
23:21:56 <Taneb> I mentioned it a while back, I think, basically stuff like [->+++>++>-<<] can be turned into b += a * 3; c += a * 2; d -= a; a = 0
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23:22:09 <Taneb> And then extending that to nested loops
23:22:33 <izabera> yeah mine does that but nesting isn't too trivial
23:22:47 <Taneb> Which in some circumstances become quadratics, etc
23:23:37 <_46bit> I was sending commands to an FTP server that made it use an IRC server as a place to send the contents of a file to.
23:23:49 <_46bit> (That's skipping a lot of detail, but I hope it condenses things enough.)
23:24:05 <fizzie> Did you succeed, though?
23:24:23 <_46bit> Sadly one server I tried requires replying to "PING a_new_value" with "PONG a_new_value"
23:24:31 <fizzie> Yes, I've heard they do that.
23:24:46 <_46bit> I can't do that because I'd need to know a_new_value when constructing the payload to send to the FTP server.
23:25:04 <fizzie> Makes sense, since that's exactly why they do that.
23:25:07 <fizzie> I don't think Freenode's does, though.
23:25:47 <_46bit> Freenode did something different. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't join channels here.
23:26:12 <_46bit> I could set a nick, and see that freenode thought I was connected, but the FTP server couldn't actually join a channel.
23:26:22 <_46bit> Whereas running it myself using netcat did work.
23:26:36 <_46bit> It's something I hope Taneb might help me play with when he's back.
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23:29:21 <fizzie> Chrome is planning to deprecate HTTP/0.9 for somewhat similar cross-protocol confusion reasons.
23:38:42 <FireFly> why does your nick sound vaguely familiar, _46bit...
23:40:36 <HackEgo> _46bit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:40:37 <_46bit> I must admit, I didn't get much further than very enjoying it
23:41:11 <shachaf> _46bit: Are you the person Taneb mentioned?
23:41:19 <_46bit> I was doing some very complex cybersecurity teaching things all summer, and getting to know that too was more than I had mindspace for
23:41:25 <_46bit> Taneb may have mentioned me.
23:41:37 <_46bit> however Taneb knows many more people than me.
23:41:50 <Taneb> shachaf, _46bit was indeed the person I mentioned
23:41:53 <shachaf> Taneb is well-known around here.
23:41:53 <Taneb> The one singular personb
23:41:56 <_46bit> this was actually a little unnerving:
23:41:57 <_46bit> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ci51ntp6cmfiei/Screenshot%202016-09-08%2023.40.50.png?dl=0
23:42:01 <shachaf> As a Glaswegian inventor, I think?
23:42:10 <_46bit> lots of red and rainbows!
23:42:20 <HackEgo> _46bit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:42:43 <_46bit> uh oh, I already thought the word "botloop"
23:42:48 * _46bit backs away from the keyboard
23:43:05 <_46bit> if you see me poking around HackEgo, kindly kick me
23:43:51 <shachaf> There are many bots here, and many botloops already achieved.
23:43:53 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
23:44:05 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
23:44:29 <shachaf> Taneb: You invented Tanebventions? I didn't know that.
23:45:22 <Taneb> shachaf, where does it say that?
23:46:02 <_46bit> I am curious what Taneb mentioned about me. But that risks dropping Taneb in it, so to speak.
23:46:10 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined.
23:47:22 <shachaf> I think he mentioned that you were using an FTP client to connect to an IRC server, for one.
23:47:26 -!- Moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:47:35 <FireFly> Taneb: do you know everyone
23:47:39 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
23:47:47 <FireFly> I heard you also know kline at least
23:47:58 <Taneb> I have met kline on at least two occasions
23:48:10 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you know anyone you don't know?
23:48:23 <HackEgo> metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
23:48:41 <shachaf> `slwd metar//s#that#Taneb invented &#
23:48:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/metar//metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
23:49:02 <kline> twice with keir and once with GTMU
23:50:10 <shachaf> I don't think I met kline even once.
23:50:23 <Taneb> Well, that's your fault for being in California
23:50:53 <shachaf> Maybe FireFly ought to move to California.
23:50:59 <shachaf> That's a good excuse for not meeting kline.
23:51:13 <Taneb> shachaf, it's concievable you've met _46bit though!
23:51:18 <FireFly> I think I'm more likely to meet kline than move to California, in the foreseeable future
23:51:38 <shachaf> Taneb: How would that happen?
23:52:29 <_46bit> I spent some time YCstartupping in Palo Alto back in 2012-13.
23:52:39 <_46bit> I think that's what Taneb is referring to.
23:52:46 <shachaf> I lived in East Palo Alto at the time.
23:53:20 <shachaf> Is YCstartupping different from regular startupping?
23:53:32 <_46bit> ooh, out by the marshes and things?
23:53:47 <_46bit> you get lots of egostroking and free stuff, for one
23:53:56 <_46bit> although free stuff has become more widely available since
23:53:57 <shachaf> I don't think I ever heard about Dreamforge.
23:54:07 <shachaf> I lived right on the border of PA and EPA.
23:54:13 <_46bit> oh dear, I'm being researched.
23:54:40 <_46bit> I heard little about EPA other than that they have a lot of work to do near where I lived.
23:54:44 <Taneb> _46bit, within half an hour of me joining this channel they guessed the small town I lived in
23:55:07 <shachaf> How can I get lots of egostroking and free stuff, please?
23:55:44 <HackEgo> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
23:55:48 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
23:56:13 <Taneb> I had mentioned a) it was in Northumberland, and b) it was raining heavily
23:56:28 <HackEgo> Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
23:56:34 <_46bit> guess which settlement in the midwest I've visited?
23:56:40 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull Taneb
23:56:53 <_46bit> hmm. is Jackson Hole even midwest? it's kinda west.
23:57:07 <Taneb> _46bit, I went to the midwest once! It was before I went to California
23:57:36 <_46bit> you went to the midwest three?
23:57:43 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you go to Minnesota?
23:57:49 <_46bit> is that like the hateful eight but as children?
23:57:57 <Taneb> shachaf, I am not sure, on account of being three
23:58:00 <Taneb> It's very possible, though
23:58:18 <Taneb> shachaf, we did go to Montana, if that helps
23:58:58 <shachaf> _46bit: When will you be in California again?
23:59:07 <shachaf> You can deliver certain items to Taneb.
23:59:20 <_46bit> As soon as I graduat--oh no, Taneb is here, I can't tell y'all that
23:59:21 <Taneb> shachaf, looking at a map, it's very unlikely I went to Minnesota
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00:00:01 <_46bit> I am considering options post-graduation. If H1Bs were easier to acquire I would most surely be coming over to Boston or California.
00:00:02 <Taneb> Colorado, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming I think
00:00:06 <shachaf> I'll be sure to convey that information to shachaf, looking at a map.
00:00:15 <shachaf> What about shachaf, looking at a computer?
00:00:24 <_46bit> I was going to get an O1 before I parted ways with the startup, but that's not such an option now.
00:00:25 <shachaf> Taneb: None of those seem very midwestern to me.
00:00:33 <shachaf> _46bit: Why not get an O-1 now?
00:00:47 <Taneb> shachaf, the midwest is a lot further east than I thought
00:01:14 <_46bit> What's west of the midwest?
00:01:21 <_46bit> like, midwest includes chicago right?
00:01:30 <_46bit> you have Mountain Time
00:01:35 <_46bit> is mountain west of the midwest?
00:02:22 <Taneb> Apparently I saw the four headed president, trapped in the rock
00:02:24 <shachaf> Most things are west of the midwest.
00:02:28 <Taneb> President Rushmore
00:02:49 <shachaf> _46bit: California is pretty good.
00:02:58 <shachaf> _46bit: You could get a J-1 probably?
00:03:04 <shachaf> I guess you already had one.
00:03:12 <_46bit> It's a fascinating place as a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit.
00:03:34 <shachaf> "public-school" means the opposite in the UK and in the US, right?
00:03:36 <Taneb> _46bit, is that public school in the British sense or the American sense
00:03:43 <_46bit> I might be able to J-1. I need to examine my options very carefully soon.
00:04:05 <_46bit> The US seems unlikely, and yet a few people seem at risk of launching a campaign to acquire me.
00:04:09 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:04:15 <_46bit> I already get photobooks of Cambridge, MA in the post.
00:04:21 <shachaf> _46bit: Maybe if you get your FTP IRC client working they'll give you an O-1 based on that accomplishment.
00:04:44 <_46bit> shachaf: if only the world works that way :D which, honestly, I think it does.
00:04:47 <Taneb> I need to look to see where I'd like to do postgrad
00:05:11 <shachaf> Taneb: move to california with _46bit hth
00:06:46 <shachaf> `learn _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
00:06:48 <HackEgo> Learned '_46bit': _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
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00:09:17 <wob_jonas> Northumberland? Is that like a Numberwang?
00:09:18 <_46bit> not as far as y'all're concerned
00:10:05 <FireFly> Taneb invented a lot of things that predated him
00:10:07 <shachaf> that needs to go on the wall
00:10:12 <wob_jonas> _46bit: yes, many irc servers other than freenode require a pong to start your connection. sometimes they even send a NOTICE to you about it so you can PONG manually even if your irc client is stupid.
00:10:14 <FireFly> don't underestimate the power of inventions
00:10:21 <Taneb> shachaf, a lot of things predate Taneb
00:10:29 <HackEgo> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
00:10:30 <Taneb> I think most people in here except for maybe Phantom_Hoover predate Taneb
00:10:55 <_46bit> This seems a most charming place.
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00:10:56 <Taneb> Actually I have no idea how predatey most people in here are
00:11:09 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
00:12:02 <oerjan> (the usual nilfisk stuff)
00:12:06 <wob_jonas> oh, and I forgot AUD among the currencies.
00:12:19 <shachaf> Perhaps _46bit is Taneb's natural predator.
00:12:37 <_46bit> wob_jonas: It's a pretty good idea. Freenode did not, but I'm convinced the system blocked my attempt some other way. I need to watch the traffic with wireshark or something to see what happened.
00:12:38 <Taneb> shachaf, _46bit has had many opportunities to eat me and as far as I am aware has not yet
00:12:57 <_46bit> Maybe every time I eat Taneb, a nested universe begins.
00:13:06 <HackEgo> A universe is a poem in one stanza.
00:13:29 <Taneb> I think there's maybe four people in here I've met in person?
00:13:41 <wob_jonas> _46bit: did you use a generic nickname that's not registered on freenode? and did you make sure your USER and NICK lines (and any other optional lines you sent) were formed correctly?
00:13:46 <Taneb> I was in the same city as fizzie for a little bit last December but I don't think I saw him
00:14:03 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm heading to bed
00:14:18 <_46bit> wob_jonas: I piped the exact same commands into netcat and it succeeded.
00:14:54 <_46bit> There's all sorts of reasons that isn't an identical test to abusing ProFTPD, of course.
00:15:07 <shachaf> I think I've met at least four people here in person, not including myself.
00:15:34 <wob_jonas> _46bit: maybe the ftp middle host you used was banned, or their open proxy scanner automatically detects open ftp servers that are so dumb as to connect to them
00:16:08 <_46bit> I was building a learnign exercise to be used in UK Computer Science courses. To demonstrate abusing services for scanning a private network, I reincarnated the FTP Bounce exploit into ProFTPD. http://www.ouah.org/ftpbounce.html
00:16:16 <_46bit> (If anyone's curious.)
00:16:35 <_46bit> wob_jonas: Nope, it was all local, behind NAT.
00:17:02 <wob_jonas> Or maybe the machine has the ftp server connected to an identd in such a way that the identd tells freenode not to believe anything the connection from ftp says.
00:17:03 <_46bit> I'm sure there's a reason but it seems I'll have to watch the network traffic to know what - too many possible variables.
00:17:42 <_46bit> 46bit arose from me as a teenager needing an online handle I liked
00:17:46 <_46bit> and swapping 64bit around
00:17:57 <_46bit> and finding the resulting nick used nowhere
00:18:22 <FireFly> maybe you ought to group it
00:18:26 <shachaf> That's because it starts with a digit.
00:18:40 <wob_jonas> FireFly: you can't change to nicks that start with a digit, you can only get them when the server sets one on you
00:18:54 <_46bit> it occasionally gets taken on super-populated communities, so I resort to 0x2Ebit in those cases
00:18:56 <wob_jonas> which they do only for a nick collision when servers connect after a netsplit
00:19:16 <_46bit> wob_jonas: it's a shame, but the IRC RFC does specify no opening digit
00:19:20 <FireFly> I'm not sure if it'd set an erroneous nickname even in that case
00:19:24 <_46bit> (someone in #cs-york checked for me)
00:19:36 <wob_jonas> _46bit: the IRC RFC specifies a lot of things that actual servers don't hold
00:19:54 <wob_jonas> there's been lots of changes and differences between networks
00:20:02 <_46bit> I believe I found a place where I didn't need the underscore, but I'm much less willing to experiment
00:20:22 <_46bit> ZNC and irssi have too many commands and things for me to want to fiddle
00:20:23 <wob_jonas> so much that when I want to find out something about irc, the best way is usually to ask on #freenode, which has people who know more about it
00:20:52 <wob_jonas> I mean, some things I can just try
00:21:46 <wob_jonas> but some of my questions are untestable, because they concern unlikely scenarios, like ordering between multiple servers or behavior at netsplits
00:21:48 <hppavilion[2]> Wait, why the hell is there a "Woman's Grandmaster" FIDE title?
00:22:18 <hppavilion[2]> I mean, in athletics, gender-segregation makes some degree of sense because men are naturally better-equipped for athletic tasks because evolution
00:22:32 <hppavilion[2]> But Chess is as far from athletic as you get, so why is there a woman's grandmaster title?
00:22:46 <wob_jonas> hpp: tradition. chess had gender differences because people simply refused to teach high level chess to women
00:22:56 <wob_jonas> these days there's much less difference
00:23:01 <_46bit> Could an AI be eligible for it?
00:23:08 <hppavilion[2]> And worse, normal GM isn't gender restricted; WGM is only for women, AND it has a lower barrier of entry
00:23:20 <hppavilion[2]> So it's basically "we'll make this easier for you because you're a girl"
00:23:43 <wob_jonas> _46bit: no, there's separate categories for chess by just computers and for chess by computer combined with humans. they're needed because humans are now much weaker in chess than computers.
00:25:38 <oerjan> istr Judith Polgar being one of the few women to be successful at the ordinary GM
00:26:04 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Yeah, and she refused to take the WGM title too
00:26:17 <hppavilion[2]> (she had a policy of only playing in non-gender-segregated tournaments)
00:27:04 <oerjan> i learned that quite a while ago, from irregular webcomic!
00:27:36 <oerjan> (when colonel Haken tried to greet the eldest Jones properly)
00:28:33 <oerjan> (of course that turned into an Overly Long Gag)
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00:30:28 <wob_jonas> oerjan: wait, does copying Susan B. Anthony still work these days?
00:31:17 <_46bit> I consider this a most successful entry into #esoteric.
00:31:18 <_46bit> I hope I find more to talk about tomorrow.
00:31:22 <oerjan> i don't remember who that is
00:31:48 <wob_jonas> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_B._Anthony
00:31:49 <hppavilion[2]> "Hello, His Holy Eminence Brother Miss Doctor Reverend-Deacon Pastor-Priest Pope Cardinal Arch|+Bishop Sensei Saint Jones."
00:31:54 <quintopia> _46bit: you could find less, and idle harder
00:32:43 <oerjan> the list of wikipedia references that Judit Polgár is the strongest female player of all time is ridiculously long :P
00:32:46 <_46bit> quintopia: I tend to cull idle IRC channels. My irssi theme doesn't work so well with them.
00:33:09 <quintopia> _46bit: this is not an idle channel, with or without you
00:33:25 <quintopia> _46bit: nothing wrong with idling in an nonidle channel when you don't have anything to say
00:34:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: adieu: not found
00:34:30 <shachaf> my terminal had rendering issues
00:34:41 <wob_jonas> quintopia: hehe, now I'm reminded to that stupid channel with a bot that kicks everyone if they're idle for 24 hours (that's also the channel that used to use a byte encoding, but they changed to utf-8 later, and I think stopped that stupid bot)
00:34:48 <shachaf> which i guess made it look like i really like charles schwab corporation
00:36:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: actually it was "The Honourable Herr Schliemannian Chair Professor Doktor Doktor Jones, CBE, DCM, JP, FRS" hth
00:37:01 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1347.html
00:37:22 <hppavilion[2]> (Is that what happens when you have 2 different doktorates?)
00:39:34 <hppavilion[2]> OK, can we just call that one King James "King James III,V"?
00:40:59 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: The one who was James I in England and James VI in Scotland
00:41:20 <hppavilion[2]> (Do we still have to 2-numbers royals named "James" after James 2-numbers?)
00:42:24 <wob_jonas> hpp: he's got two doctorates, per http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1323.html , but I think the usual real-life way to get "Doctor" twice in your name is to be a women, get a doctorate, marry a men who has a doctorate, and take his name.
00:42:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: you know that some people think the current queen should use I in scotland, too?
00:42:45 <wob_jonas> In that case the two "Doctor" aren't adjacent though
00:43:53 <hppavilion[2]> (Like I told my sister any man she marries has to do; he changes his name.)
00:44:02 <hppavilion[2]> wob_jonas: No, being married to a Doctor doesn't make you a Doctor
00:44:35 <hppavilion[2]> Unless you mean something like "Mr. & Ms. Dr. Smith", which I don't think is really correct
00:44:57 <oerjan> it was probably considered correct at one time.
00:45:28 <oerjan> but nowadays it sounds rather antifeminist
00:46:17 <hppavilion[2]> (If you would usually say "Mr. & Ms. Smith", but one (or both) has a doctorate, are you supposed to do "Dr. & Ms. Smith"/"Mr. & Dr. Smith"/"Dr. and Dr. Smith" (though in the last case, I think "Drs. Smith" would be considered correct))
00:46:59 <oerjan> i think giving up and screaming is the correct approach there
00:47:42 <quintopia> hppavilion[2]: I think Dr. and Dr. would be most appropriate
00:47:53 -!- `^_^v has joined.
00:49:12 <hppavilion[2]> (Similarly, gay-married couples could be "Mss. Smith-Jones" or "Mrs. Smi"- oh, wait, the "Mrs." is a problem)
00:51:00 <quintopia> hppavilion[2]: i don't think Drs. is standard except in the cases that all their last names are different. E.g. in a medical practice of "Drs. Smith, Klaxon, Blzzxxt, and Jones"
00:51:53 <wob_jonas> hpp: I'm quite sure some people here do have a Dr. in their name just because their husband has such a title. that doesn't make them a Doctor, but they have it in their name before the part of the name they took from their husband.
00:52:33 <hppavilion[2]> (Even though we aren't speaking German so prefixes usually don't stack, some prefixes in English do stack (e.g. "Rv. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."), and Dr*. is put on the same level as Dr. and Rv. for that)
00:52:45 <quintopia> hppavilion[2]: I think Drs. Smith and Smith would be fine
00:53:07 <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: That works too, but "A & A" is just "A"
00:53:23 <quintopia> hppavilion[2]: good thing names aren't booleans
00:53:27 <wob_jonas> hpp: Heinlein's novel ''The Rolling Stones'' has Mr. Stone (the husband) and Dr. Stone (the mother).
00:53:57 <hppavilion[2]> And this isn't even getting into metadoctors (Mdr.)
00:54:18 <wob_jonas> That books has at least two completely names for six out of the seven main characters, used depending on who calls them that, and it's not explained at the start which names name the same people, so it was horibbly confusing to me
00:55:05 <hppavilion[2]> (For those logreading: Dr*. is read "Co-doctor" and is a title automatically given to the spouse of a doctor, and is on the same priority level as Dr., so a doctor married to another doctor would be "Dr. Dr.* Smith")
00:55:44 <wob_jonas> The most confusing part is that the twin brothers, who are approximately 16 years old, are called Castor and Pollux, but they call each other the nicknames Grandpa and Junior.
00:56:20 <wob_jonas> probably no, maybe others pick it up more easily
00:56:57 <wob_jonas> but seriously, calling a 16 year old boy "Grandpa" and another one "Junior" (when he has a 4 year old brother) in a book without explanation is confusing
00:57:09 <hppavilion[2]> (Maybe there should be an opposite of Dr. with an inherently bad connotation that's given to the child of a doctor. The only way to lose it is to get a doctorate yourself.)
00:57:12 <wob_jonas> even if it does make sense for the twins to call them that
00:57:54 <wob_jonas> hpp: I dunno, I never know with Heeinlein
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01:08:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: being the child of a doctor may be hard, but you just have to be patient
01:09:04 * hppavilion[2] takes oerjan's swatter and swats em with it ----###
01:09:38 <oerjan> that's my swatter, it's the wrong size hth
01:09:54 <oerjan> stupid keyboard goblins
01:13:39 <wob_jonas> oerjan: "you know that some people think the current queen should use I in scotland, too?" => it seems crazy that the queen is bound by so many traditions that people would even debate this, rather than thinking that the queen has the right to get herself called whatever she wants.
01:14:13 <oerjan> <\oren\> Today's QC is more gratuitous speculation about how to have sex with robots. ...I guess that's fine, now the name of the comic finally makes sense. <-- this comment was confusing coming right after a discussion of QuickCheck
01:15:53 <hppavilion[2]> Hm, "Gentleman" specifically refers to a man of "good, courteous conduct" (and lady to the female counterpart)
01:15:57 <oerjan> wob_jonas: this is britain. the monarchy is made of pure unadulterated traditions hth
01:16:22 <hppavilion[2]> So would you use "Ladies and Gentlemen" when referring to a crowd where some members are not of good, courteous conduct?
01:16:37 <oerjan> ladies, gentlemen, and scoundrels
01:16:53 <oerjan> i'm sure some comedians must have done that
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01:17:33 <oerjan> a webcomic with somewhat questionable content
01:18:45 <wob_jonas> like how many government institutes before 1914 were called "K & K" because the king is the emperor of Austria and the king of Hungary
01:19:38 <wob_jonas> even after 1914 for a while I think
01:20:38 <wob_jonas> because of the Steward of Gondor stuff
01:21:44 <oerjan> iirc finland still has laws that refer to kejsaren, aka the tsar or russia
01:22:56 <wob_jonas> oerjan: here documents referred to the People's Republic for a while until they could rename everything
01:23:08 <hppavilion[2]> (OK, I'm getting a little confused. Is the correct spelling "bear with me" or "bare with me" when not saying "let's go be bears"?)
01:23:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: the former i think.
01:23:44 <oerjan> unless you're stripping.
01:26:28 <oerjan> hm possibly finland cleaned that up eventually too. i'm having trouble finding evidence.
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01:26:57 <wob_jonas> Like, the coat of arms used to be present in a lot of places here, on official documents and government buildings and all the primary schools; but when the Republic was established, there were lots of more urgent stuff to do than to replace the signs everywhere,
01:27:05 <oerjan> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/1269/is-it-bear-or-bare-with-me
01:27:17 <wob_jonas> so for a while you could see the People's Republic coat of arms on lots of buildings still.
01:28:40 <wob_jonas> That's been done long ago though, you can't find the old coat of arms or mentions of "People's Republic" anywhere. Instead they're replacing "Állami" to "Nemzeti" in the names of lots of institutions now.
01:43:38 <oerjan> `? tanebventions: math
01:43:39 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, and histograms.
01:44:07 <HackEgo> axiom of choice? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:44:19 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: math//s/y,/y, locales,/
01:44:20 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
01:44:29 <HackEgo> Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
01:44:44 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
01:45:18 <oerjan> `cwlprits axiom of choice
01:45:35 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: math//s/the axiom of choice, //
01:45:38 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
01:45:57 <oerjan> see stated policy in the logs.
01:50:06 <oerjan> <zzo38> HSTS is terrible but I can propose a better way: There is a menu that the user can set up [...] <-- i'll state (reiterate?) what i consider obvious: the entire point of HSTS is to provide the right default for users who haven't thought carefully about their security. thus requiring a menu to enable it completely misses the purpose.
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01:50:46 <oerjan> *swap point and purpose above
01:50:58 <hppavilion[2]> ...it's kind of funny that UC wanted to make emoji more representative of race (because someone was doing it wrong by using actual skin colors)
01:51:31 <hppavilion[2]> Except they merged type 1 and type 2 (the two that would be classified as "white") into a single one
01:52:24 <hppavilion[2]> By "funny" I mean "a tiny bit racist, but of the variety that a non-white person could complain about but a white person can't, even to people they can complain about more overt racism to"
01:52:41 <oerjan> of course a menu to adjust/disable it might be useful for power users.
01:54:36 <oerjan> . o O ( hppavilion[2] doesn't get to discuss PC issues more than twice a week... )
01:54:57 <oerjan> thus it's in . o O ( ) hth
01:55:19 <oerjan> it's happening in a hypothetical world where i'm less patient hth
01:55:32 <hppavilion[2]> hey should add a Hitler Emoji. With the note that you're required to support ALL fitzpatricks or not use it at all
01:55:51 <hppavilion[2]> Just to insult Hitler even though he's already dead
01:59:07 <oerjan> i'm not sure insulting hitler actually helps with anything other than feeling smug.
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02:07:48 <wob_jonas> Update: it is probably not only expensive, but impossible for me to do a bank transfer in foreign currency to PayPal.
02:13:55 <\oren\> wob_jonas: really? I haven't had any trouble paying things in rubles or USD on paypal
02:17:31 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I can shop in other currencies by PayPal, but PayPal charges my card in HUF, so I pay PayPal's very expensive currency change rates rather than my bank's much cheaper rates
02:18:04 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it seems like the bank can offer such cheap currency conversion rates because it's practically impossible to actually do anything with those rates without additional high charges
02:18:53 <wob_jonas> I can most certainly pay with a bank card on a POS terminal in a foreign country to get the cheap rates.
02:19:28 <wob_jonas> But I can't use the cheap rates to shop online with PayPal, for which I'd like to pay in GBP or other currencies.
02:20:28 <hppavilion[2]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spot_the_cow.gif
02:22:23 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:25:17 <oerjan> . o O ( wait, do all cows turn spherical when in a vacuum? )
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02:28:57 * hppavilion[2] . o O ( The Pope, at some point (it was Urban VIII apparently), declared the rules for how religious titles correspond to monarchical titles (Pope = King, Cardinal = Prince, and presumably Archbishop|Bishop = Archduke|Duke. Not sure where it goes from there.)
02:31:03 <wob_jonas> Um, what observable effect does that correspondence have?
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02:36:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: table sittings hth
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02:41:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> How can I get lots of egostroking and free stuff, please? <-- you live in berkeley, isn't that ego stroking enough?
02:42:58 <oerjan> i guess a berkeleyan would be the last to understand.
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03:41:21 <zzo38> oerjan: It can be enabled by default if you want to I suppose, but I think it shouldn't be. (Anyways I would want to use the web browser program which is for the experts only, because the other ones just aren't so good)
04:00:26 <oerjan> ais523: it looks like the spammers have taken a break
04:01:09 <ais523> I made filter 9 a little less restrictive recently
04:01:21 <ais523> because legitimate users were failing at reading comprehension
04:01:43 <oerjan> but some of them are still failing at bothering to complete it
04:02:32 <ais523> we could possibly get fizzie to disable anonymous editing in the site config? because it's effectively disabled anyway
04:02:33 <oerjan> well, except the users seem to have taken a break too.
04:02:42 <ais523> it's a quiet time for the Internet in general
04:02:53 <ais523> I'm not quite sure why, but most of the other online forums I've been in have also seen a lull in activity
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04:03:05 <ais523> could be that people are on holiday
04:03:37 <oerjan> ais523: yeah if we're keeping anonymous editing disabled, it's better to stop people before they've composed an edit
04:04:07 <ais523> we could try disabling filter 9 for a bit and turning it back on the next time there's a spam attack?
04:04:14 <oerjan> ais523: i assume it's school/colleges picking up?
04:04:16 <ais523> although I'm not checking Esolang regularly any more
04:04:29 <ais523> oerjan: it's a little too early for that
04:04:38 <ais523> and that normally causes an increase rather than reduction in activity
04:04:48 <ais523> the "september surge" is a good time for recruiting people to online communities
04:04:53 <oerjan> ais523: the problem with that is that we still haven't got an emergency halt button.
04:05:32 <oerjan> fizzie was looking a bit into better filtering, but i think he only got as far as upgrading the wiki
04:05:42 <ais523> I don't think an emergency stop button would be useful
04:05:54 <ais523> the odds that someone who knows where it is is online at the same time as the spammers are fairly low
04:06:36 <oerjan> ais523: we'd have to advertize it a bit
04:07:16 <oerjan> "In a rare show of solidarity, both British English and American English spell advertise with an s in all forms."
04:07:38 <ais523> yes, that's one of the only consistently -ise words
04:07:48 <ais523> I wonder if it's because it has a different etymology from the others
04:08:07 <ais523> after all, "advertise" doesn't really mean "make into an advert", but "make an advert about"
04:08:24 <ais523> (and "advert" is IIRC an abbreviation for "advertisement" rather than the /stem/ of "advertisement")
04:08:44 <oerjan> <ais523> could be that people are on holiday <-- i think some countries have holidays at about this time, because the middle of summer is too hot for travelling or something.
04:10:45 <oerjan> alternatively, that also applies to destinations.
04:11:29 <ais523> heh, I tried to look up the etymology of "advert" on Wiktionary and my ad blocker blocked it
04:12:22 <ais523> easy enough to add an exception, I just found it amusing (and confusing before I figured out what was going on)
04:13:26 <ais523> hmm, it seems that "advertise" and "advertisement", although they share a root historically, diverged more recently than they were imported into English
04:13:49 <ais523> and that the most likely theory about the spelling of "advertise" is that it was influenced by that of "advertisement"
04:14:04 <ais523> *diverged before they were imported into English
04:15:34 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN2e4K9Jvug
04:16:20 * oerjan needs to stop clicking on \oren\'s links
04:16:31 <oerjan> we have exceedingly diverging music tastes
04:20:24 <ais523> you should learn to be incredibly adverse to following links on IRC, like I am
04:20:28 <ais523> (for a while I had my client block them altogether)
04:21:06 <oerjan> my client doesn't follow links, i have to cut and paste them.
04:22:34 <oerjan> since it's inside putty
04:23:07 <oerjan> i don't follow links from any random newbie
04:23:52 <oerjan> and i do look at the domain. i'd probably not follow url shorteners unless i'm told what it is.
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04:34:14 <zzo38> I don't follow YouTube links or URL shortener links, in general
04:34:47 <ais523> what about links to YouTube's URL shortener (youtu.be)?
04:35:11 <zzo38> I don't watch YouTube
04:35:14 <izabera> zzo38: https://www.kamogo.com/17
04:37:34 <zzo38> I think that doesn't even work properly
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04:47:07 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pGuu8QMk6E
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04:58:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td-ZUm9Pixc
05:00:37 <\oren\> idea: a url shortener that runs some sort of distributed computing thing before redirecting
05:01:19 <izabera> yes because that's what anyone wants with a url shortner
05:01:29 <izabera> 3s latency before being redirected
05:01:34 <\oren\> well, you obviously would at first only redirect
05:04:02 <\oren\> izabera: well, maybe you would track usage patterns before DDOS day, then schedule it for the day of the week with highest usage
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05:04:49 <\oren\> many url shorteners have some letency while they show advertizements
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05:31:39 <zzo38> I have suggested before, to put texts of Magic: the Gathering cards into computer as RDF data (for example "Counter target spell" may become [:counter [:target :spell]]); this might then compile into something else to implement game in computer, or may be interpreted to implement game in computer. However, another advantage of this which was not the original point of it, is that you might make SPARQL queries to search for cards by effect instead o
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08:30:59 <zzo38> Can a LL parser be extended so that right sides of productions can be DFAs? How does this affect what it is capable of recognizing?
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09:10:18 * \46bit did not know one could backslash instead of underscore
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09:36:15 <HackEgo> TANEB: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: <HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/>. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON EFNET OR DALNET.)
09:36:38 <Taneb> Can you not be so loud I've only just woken up
09:37:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: RELCOME: not found
09:38:07 <\46bit> that's probably a good thing
09:38:20 <shachaf> \46bit: please be respectful of Taneb's wishes twh
09:38:51 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
09:39:01 <HackEgo> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
09:39:20 <HackEgo> The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
09:39:29 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I didn't realize filter 9 effectively disables anonymous editing; turning it off "properly" SGTM.
09:39:33 <HackEgo> Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
09:39:34 <fizzie> @tell ais523 I didn't realize filter 9 effectively disables anonymous editing; turning it off "properly" SGTM.
09:39:57 <shachaf> fizzie: Do non-Google people use "SGTM"?
09:40:08 <fizzie> shachaf: Non-Google Chrome developers do.
09:40:13 <shachaf> I thought so, but then someone in another channel said it was a Google thing.
09:40:26 <shachaf> Anyway for years my sister thought it meant "silently giggling to myself".
09:40:45 <shachaf> She thought I was laughing at her whenever anything good happened.
09:42:32 <shachaf> Chrome people don't count.
09:43:09 <HackEgo> klein bottles? ¯\(°_o)/¯
09:43:14 <HackEgo> klein bottle? ¯\(°_o)/¯
09:43:21 <fizzie> According to the Internet, it's general "Internet slang", but I have to say I don't recall hearing it much (if at all) pre-Google.
09:43:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math:Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms. \ wisdom/klein bottle:A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more insidious. Taneb tried to invent it, but got trapped inside.
09:44:07 <Taneb> If anyone can get trapped inside a klein bottle it's me
09:44:08 <shachaf> @ask oerjan was that pun truly an accident? twh
09:45:25 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
09:51:50 <fizzie> shachaf: In my logs there are 31 instances of 'sgtm', all but two of which are from #esoteric; most are from >= 2105, but there's 6 from 2013 (4x shachaf, 2x kmc); the two non-#esoteric instances are from ##c and #nethack.
09:51:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can deduce anything from that.
09:52:44 <fizzie> (Except that I need a full-text index for my logs, the query was SO SLOW.)
09:54:30 <shachaf> or an extra data center hth
09:56:33 <fizzie> I should switch to logging protos, then I'd be more motivated to build tools for browsing them.
09:57:03 <fizzie> As it is, I tend to just grep over the raw files instead of even querying the db.
09:57:20 <fizzie> I'm not sure why that's a problem, but it feels like a problem.
09:57:51 <shachaf> fizzie: What's a good tool to run various queries on a proto-based log format?
10:00:18 <fizzie> I don't think there is one. Uh, upload it into Storage and use BigQuery? (I think that's just Dremel.)
10:02:06 <shachaf> I didn't think there was one either, but I was hoping to be wrong.
10:03:09 <fizzie> There should probably be something jq-like for protos.
10:07:12 <fizzie> The whole "not self-describing" thing makes that a little less appealing.
10:11:30 <fizzie> I have a silly script that runs daily to fetch account balances for my pay-as-you-go phone account (they're very bad at providing any records), it writes the results into sqlite but for some unfathomable reason (temporary insanity?) also logs in protos.
10:16:35 <Taneb> I'd still like to advocate brainfuck interpreters where the cells are in Z/pZ for some prime p
10:17:22 <Taneb> (I like p = 127 or 257 for this)
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10:19:59 <\46bit> I can't quite figure out what that would look like, Taneb.
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10:21:02 <Taneb> \46bit, basically, it'd mean that balanced loops that don't contain , on the conditional cell either always halt or never halt
10:21:20 <Taneb> And you can decide this at compile time
10:21:59 <Taneb> (balanced with regards to < and >, that is each iteration tests the same cell)
10:22:51 <Taneb> Because Z/nZ is a field! :D
10:23:48 <Taneb> And there's a surjective homomorphism from the algebraic-structure-describing-the-increment-operation from the naturals to it
10:24:11 <Taneb> Which is useful for brainfuck
10:24:21 <Taneb> (that might in fact be a monoid homomorphism but I am not sure)
10:24:43 <fizzie> Taneb: So does [[-]>,[-<+>]<] always halt or not? It doesn't contain a , on the conditional cell, and is balanced.
10:25:48 <Taneb> That does not always halt or not
10:25:54 <Taneb> I may have rethink slightly
10:26:31 <Taneb> I'm going to add the condition "Does not contain a nested loop affecting the conditional cell"
10:37:45 <int-e> yay I'm listening to a talk about Malbolge...
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10:50:13 <int-e> "The difficult task of writing a general program in Malbolge was completed for real in 2005 by Hisashi Iizawa, Toshiki Sakabe, Masahiko Sakai, Keiichirou Kusakari, and Naoki Nishida." ... I had not realized that I know two of these people.
10:50:45 <int-e> (Masahiko Sakai is the speaker)
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14:55:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge Unshackled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49698&oldid=47353 * Malbranche * (+129) /* External resources */ Link to Brainfuck interpreter proving Turing-completeness
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14:59:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Malbranche]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49699&oldid=47305 * Malbranche * (+162) Work on Malbolge Unshackled
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15:25:57 <gamemanj> So... I was going through self-hosting file storage solutions, and the 2 good ones required PHP, one of which had an unexplained libselinux dependency. And they all require that you have a device with enough storage capacity for all the files.
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16:04:26 <gamemanj> (By "device with enough storage capacity for all the files", I was referring to the server. Just realized that might be ambiguous. Nowadays, servers tend to have less space than the clients...)
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16:11:55 <myname> what would you consider the most important feature to implement in a df like after digging?
16:13:03 <gamemanj> (and/or like cats. pick any 1.)
16:13:20 <myname> i tend to say workshops
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16:37:16 <\oren\> myname: objects that can be moved using stockpiles
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16:39:24 <myname> yeah, items in general. i have to look for graphics
16:40:28 <\oren\> you're not using characters?
16:40:31 <myname> first stuff i am going to make is probably stone, wood and barrels
16:40:54 <myname> i may, if i don't find somebody to make graphics in the long run
16:41:22 <\oren\> ▬ <- a brown one of these. wood. done.
16:42:34 <\oren\> • <- gray. stone. done.
16:42:38 <myname> i need tilesets nontheless :)
16:42:55 <\oren\> You could of course use emojis!
16:43:28 <myname> in practice, i just wildly modify an existing game
16:43:44 <\oren\> or the non-emoji character variants of emojis, if you still want each object to be one character cell
16:44:58 <myname> i still have a small problems with ramps to fix
16:45:02 <\oren\> ☂ <- This is a pine wood and horse leather umbrella. It is of the utmost quality.
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16:46:11 <\oren\> It is hung with rings of rose gold and amber, and inlaid with a picture in rat bones of Ugrak the Orc. Ugrak is weeping.
16:46:57 <myname> that is way more advanced than what i am going to do for now
16:47:12 <myname> i am not planing to do different stones for now, at all
16:47:26 <\oren\> The picture relates to the imprisonment in Woodsgelding of Ugrak the Orc in 1348
16:48:12 <myname> and i need to write a name generator some time
16:52:17 <\oren\> Trump appeared on RT to praise Putin
16:53:00 <\oren\> If he wins, the cold war is over, with victory to Russia
17:37:01 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZREQWva082s
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17:38:58 <wob_jonas> Oh man, I'm very proud of myself now, even if what I did was by accident.
17:39:12 <izabera> \oren\: i wouldn't understand a word without subs
17:40:45 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> the "september surge" is a good time for recruiting people to online communities" -- what?
17:40:53 <\oren\> izabera: Yeah Stack is not good at english...
17:41:06 <wob_jonas> is that like the rush to the shops to buy useless stuff to schoolchildren?
17:41:31 <\oren\> I guess some kids might get new laptops at that time
17:41:59 <wob_jonas> and tablets and smartphones and whatever they use these days
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17:42:52 <fizzie> I thought that was a reference to the phenomenon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September is about.
17:44:05 * wob_jonas leans back in his comfy chair staring at this channel on a huge monitor with smug superiority radiating the belief that the large noisy box next to him is a better way to enjoy this text chat than those fancy tiny devices
17:45:11 <fizzie> Incidentally, I think I was told a lot of people have now used the interwebs for the first time over a smartphone.
17:45:28 <fizzie> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/06/smartphones-most-popular-way-to-browse-internet-ofcom
17:46:05 <\oren\> fizzie: my little cousin didn't know that you could get youtube on a laptop
17:46:08 <wob_jonas> fizzie: wait, is that even possible?
17:46:28 <\oren\> until I showed him a few weeks ago
17:46:46 <\oren\> wob_jonas: yes, if the "people" in question are 6 years old
17:48:07 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Why wouldn't it be possible?
17:48:52 <gamemanj> "To improve the overall user experience, Youtube users are required to have WebGL 2, which means you have to support OpenGL ES 3. THIS MEANS YOU, IRONLAKE USERS."
17:49:24 <gamemanj> *cue mass shift to youtube-dl*
17:49:28 <izabera> \oren\: your little cousin is stupid
17:49:32 <\oren\> To him, I'm some ancient relic who went to a party in the year 2000.
17:50:00 <\oren\> the year 2000 is 10 years before he was born
17:50:26 <\oren\> like, the equivalent of someone talking to me about 1983
17:51:01 <\oren\> or talking to my dad about like 1946
17:51:13 <fizzie> "Mobile-only internet usage is also becoming more common, driven predominantly by Millennials, of which 21 percent are no longer using desktop computers to go online."
17:51:18 <gamemanj> "Back in the day, those awesome graphics cards were branded ATI! You hear me? A! T! I!"
17:51:44 <gamemanj> (The merger happened in 2010, so your little cousin would not know of this.)
17:51:46 <wob_jonas> fizzie: what is this "protos" you mention?
17:52:02 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Protobufs. You know, protocol buffers.
17:52:05 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: no way. even back then NVDIA cards were more awesome, just more expensive too.
17:52:45 <fizzie> Matrox is where it's at.
17:53:36 <\oren\> Back in the day, the USA wasn't at war in the middle east
17:53:56 <fizzie> I had at least a Matrox Mystique 220, a G200 and a G450.
17:54:15 <\oren\> the president was named "Bill Clinton"
17:54:17 <fizzie> mplayer had a custom 'mga' output driver for hardware-accelerated video on them. V. fancy.
17:54:20 <gamemanj> Meh. Think about it this way. AMD's easier on the drivers under some conditions, and if you're worried it's not powerful enough... seriously, please, for the love of all that you know, avoid anything marked "i3 M370".
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17:54:36 <gamemanj> That should recalibrate your definition of power.
17:55:22 <wob_jonas> Yeah, and we had mouse with two buttons, and 14 inch CRT monitors with 100 hertz refresh rate and way more vivid colors than what you have now on these TFTs, and a Gmail with no "delete" button.
17:55:45 <\oren\> And the most awesome internet games were written in Shockwave Flash
17:56:00 <\oren\> which your ipad can't even run
17:56:39 <izabera> neither can my laptop with arch
17:56:44 <wob_jonas> wasn't there an xkcd about the delete button in gmail?
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17:57:38 <\oren\> Oh, and the prime minister was Jean Chretien
17:57:58 <gamemanj> "Jean Chretien"? Never heard of them.
17:58:10 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Chr%C3%A9tien
17:58:27 <\oren\> He's famous for punching a heckler in the face
17:58:42 <gamemanj> So, basically, one of the few rare politicians that ever did anything.
17:58:45 <wob_jonas> \oren\: what? wasn't Chretien prime minister only a few years ago?
17:59:11 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no. then there was paul martin, and then stephen goddamnhim harper
17:59:36 <gamemanj> I'm guessing harper, whoever they are, was not very good at government?
17:59:51 <gamemanj> Either that or he literally had "Goddamnhim" as a middle name.
18:00:03 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: I understand some people say he ruined canada or something
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18:00:12 <wob_jonas> I don't really follow politics on the other side of the pond
18:00:52 <gamemanj> I don't follow politics, in general, that much.
18:00:59 <\oren\> gamemanj: basically he allowed Canada's economy to become way too tied to oil
18:01:26 <\oren\> gamemanj: nah, just became worthless with the advent of shale
18:01:42 <\oren\> it's still there, but uneconomical to extract
18:02:29 <wob_jonas> Oh man. So something is broken about rendering MathML in this browser, because the same problem (too high parenthesis) appears on multiple wobsites.
18:03:11 <\oren\> he also prorogued parliament to prevent certain bills from getting passed
18:03:31 <\oren\> and to prevent a vote of no confidence
18:04:19 <\oren\> wob_jonas: he didn't let parliament hold any sessions for months
18:05:34 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
18:06:03 <\oren\> then in 2011 there actually was avote of no confidence
18:06:41 <\oren\> harper won again, but he lost the regular election this year
18:08:31 <\oren\> he's no longer in politics
18:12:29 <\oren\> I find MathML is often screwed up
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18:33:27 <myname> https://www.dropbox.com/s/zb8fbs7685xpkiu/Screenshot_20160909-191854.png?dl=0 i do think i made a mistake somewhere
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18:49:16 <gamemanj> myname: mistake? I see no mistake.
18:49:59 <myname> there is one dwarf on that layer (as indicated in the top right)
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19:27:06 <\oren\> According to an online quiz, I'm more likely to be a native swedish speaker than English
19:27:24 <\oren\> http://gameswithwords.org/WhichEnglish/
19:28:04 <\oren\> yes, given I don't know any swedish and I've never been to sweden.
19:28:52 <shachaf> I would do the quiz, but it requires age and gender.
19:29:09 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
19:29:11 <\oren\> "Ore guesses for your native language: 1: Swedish, 2: Dutch 3: English"
19:29:48 <gamemanj> time to cheat the quiz age/gender thingy, just for the fun of it
19:30:47 <\oren\> Also their dialect chioces were "1: Ebonics 2: Canadian 3: General american"
19:32:57 <gamemanj> Oh, the cheats... so apparently they decided that normal <select> tags weren't enough
19:33:02 <gamemanj> they created special <select> tags
19:33:31 <gamemanj> which are stopping me from saying that I am an immortal verminicious knid.
19:41:01 <gamemanj> Aha. Use the DOM inspector to add in your preferred option, then run $("#gender").select2(); to create the new choicebox.
19:46:17 <myname> interesting, it guessed german for me
19:46:45 <myname> also, my dialect seems to be aave
19:52:32 <gamemanj> So, apparently, I'm from New Zealand. This, of course, is completely false.
19:54:13 <myname> german, english, dutch are the 3 guesses for me
19:54:32 <gamemanj> and now... "In the Country Of United Kingdom"...
19:55:00 <gamemanj> seriously, they say "country" and define the United Kingdom as a country, they are asking for me to deliberately break the system now.
19:55:22 <shachaf> I said it in Hebrew -- I said it in Dutch -- / I said it in German and Greek. / But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) / That English is what you speak.
19:56:39 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
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19:58:04 <gamemanj> the best part is, that somehow, the console isn't indicating any server errors due to my... interesting... input.
19:58:22 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:58:23 <gamemanj> Or at least none that the server sent back, anyway...
20:03:07 <wob_jonas> It says "Our top three guesses for your English dialect: 1. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics 2. New Zealandish 3. South African. Our top three guesses for your native (first) language: 1. English 2. Dutch 3. Swedish"
20:04:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:04:54 <nortti> "Our top three guesses for your English dialect: 1. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics 2. New Zealandish 3. Singaporean" "Our top three guesses for your native (first) language: 1. Swedish 2. English 3. Dutch"
20:07:43 <copumpkin> shachaf: the book is in my possession! not sure if I'll have time to read this weekend but will try
20:07:48 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:07:59 <shachaf> copumpkin: After you read this book I can send you more books.
20:08:38 <shachaf> I recommend a book to kmc that he really liked.
20:09:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: won't that cause a downtime between the two books when the second book is still in postage/
20:09:12 <shachaf> Maybe you should read that one.
20:09:24 <shachaf> wob_jonas: copumpkin deserves a break.
20:10:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: Remind me, were you an expert in Russian history?
20:10:10 <shachaf> copumpkin: _The Coast of Utopia_ was so good
20:10:16 <shachaf> That's a play, not a book.
20:11:06 <shachaf> I guess that's irrelevant.
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20:28:55 <fizzie> Every time you read a book, shachaf sends you two more books.
20:30:31 <wob_jonas> fizzie: is there a flip side? like, every time you don't read a book he's sent within reasonable time, he takes away another random one of your books?
20:33:37 <fizzie> I don't know, I don't subscribe to the service.
20:33:54 <fizzie> But that sounds reasonable.
20:34:15 <wob_jonas> anyway, those aren't good rules, because then you can get stuck with zero books in the queue
20:35:00 <wob_jonas> a better rule might be something like this: whenever you have two or fewer books in your read queue plus in transmit from shachaf, shachaf sends you two more books.
20:35:04 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you want to subscribe?
20:35:21 <wob_jonas> shachaf: can I request particular books?
20:35:29 <shachaf> fizzie: Now that you're British do you drink a lot of tea?
20:36:06 <fizzie> shachaf: No, yes (well, sort-of).
20:36:40 <shachaf> I've been trying to sign up for someone's tea recommendation of the month club.
20:36:57 <fizzie> I drink more tea now because the new office's MKs have this tap from which hot water comes out of, without having to pour it into a water cooker and waiting for few minutes.
20:37:14 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, I'm bad at that. I mostly just drink the sort of empty tea I call "colored water"
20:37:21 <gamemanj> Ah, yes, the "do not ever let it near a child, they are guaranteed to hurt their hands" taps
20:37:32 <fizzie> gamemanj: It's got a child-"proof" thing.
20:37:34 <wob_jonas> certainly not British stuff that has a taste
20:37:45 <wob_jonas> (even if it's sometimes a horrible taste)
20:37:46 <shachaf> fizzie: Are there any shortened URLs containing the string "pooch"?
20:38:01 <shachaf> fizzie: I heard there was a spot of the kerfuffle about URL shortening recently.
20:38:17 <fizzie> gamemanj: You get cold water at the press of a button, but for hot water you need to press a button first, and then a different button in a short interval of time.
20:38:34 <gamemanj> fizzie: Do not underestimate children.
20:38:36 <shachaf> fizzie: No way a child would ever figure that out.
20:38:53 <fizzie> Well, I'm a bit worried, because *I* could figure it out without instructions.
20:38:56 <wob_jonas> you have to press buttons? surely no child would ever want to waste his time on pressing buttons to see what happens
20:39:13 <fizzie> The two hot-water buttons are identical, and once you've pressed one, the other blinks.
20:39:42 <gamemanj> Are they asking for scalded hands?
20:39:45 <wob_jonas> we've already talked about this today. children these days just use their touchscreen smartphones, they don't like pressing actual buttons
20:39:58 <fizzie> The Chicago office had a TEAbot.
20:40:28 <fizzie> A sort of a thing with jars of loose-leaf tea, and a tablet as the user interface.
20:40:39 <wob_jonas> Where are the buttons, are they placed under the tap so you have to reach in carefully, or press it with the cup?
20:40:49 <shachaf> fizzie: please recommend a loose-leaf tea twh
20:40:50 <fizzie> http://www.foodandwine.com/fwx/drink/teabot-tea-making-robot-tea-lovers-dreams
20:41:37 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm not a high-fidelity tea person, I just pick from what's been supplied.
20:41:48 <gamemanj> Is a tea make considered unoriginal and bland if it's a Braintea derivative?
20:41:59 <fizzie> I've bought the Clipper brand things because they have nice boxes.
20:42:17 <wob_jonas> You know, like these soda machines where you just have to push your cup forward under the tap to trigger a mechanical handle with the cup, but instead people try all sorts of things like pushing or pulling the handle with their hands, with or without a cup.
20:42:26 <shachaf> fizzie: Nice boxes? That sounds good.
20:43:16 <shachaf> fizzie: But all I see is bags?
20:43:32 <gamemanj> wob_jonas: Put a symbol on the side of the mug, and an obviously interlocking symbol on the machine port.
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20:44:53 <\oren\> Today is Cirno Day! ⑨/⑨
20:45:04 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: dunno, good interface design is hard
20:45:12 <\oren\> ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQq_mZc3y_s
20:46:30 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Yes. Preparing hot water without the handy tap is such a chore, I do all my tea at work.
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20:47:34 <gamemanj> fizzie: you "do" your tea? That's making me imagine some sort of drug pusher handing you some Earl Gr[ea]y.
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20:48:44 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I also drink most of my tea at work, but not because of that. Both at work and at home I make tea by boiling water in a small electric kettle, pouring half a liter in a cup, and adding a teabag for coloring the water.
20:48:55 <wob_jonas> It's exactly the same procedure at home or at work.
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20:50:22 <fizzie> shachaf: That's weird. The grocery stores (at least in Finland) had loose-leaf Clipper brand tea. I don't know why their website is so bag-only.
20:52:11 <\oren\> and it's the right way around too
20:52:19 <HackEgo> \oren\'s font is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
20:52:51 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: Congratulations, BTW, my school has your site blocked
20:53:37 <gamemanj> perhaps: ln -s "wisdom/oren's font" wisdom/neoletters
20:53:50 <gamemanj> (Warning. I have no idea how HackEgo would react to this. That's what makes it so fun!)
20:53:51 <\oren\> My site doesn't have any ads at all... maybe that's what's prohibited
20:54:13 <gamemanj> so they can replace them with their own ads!
20:54:35 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn oren's font/\oren\'s font neoletters is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
20:56:12 <hppavilion[2]> Even if there WERE ads, everyone has adblock nowadays
21:00:38 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
21:01:21 <hppavilion[1]> |G|lobally search |Ræ|gular |E|xpression and |P|rint
21:01:35 <wob_jonas> hpp: grapes? nah, I prefer raspberries, thanks.
21:01:46 <gamemanj> wob_jonas: I prefer my raspberries in a pie, rather than raw.
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21:37:02 <fungot> wob_jonas: regardless of whether or not a file in big-5 encoding. how would you like
21:46:08 <gamemanj> Well, this should be ゚interesting.
21:47:32 <fungot> wob_jonas: stop twisting words again.
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21:48:10 <gamemanj> I wonder why so many people are unaffiliated?
21:50:03 <\oren\> unaffiliated with what?
21:51:24 <Taneb> gamemanj, I am legally required to be non-partisanb
21:51:34 <gamemanj> I'm guessing they're actually aliens from another planet, in disguise as humans. Or time travellers. Or alien time travellers. They seem kind, so that's good.
21:55:37 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: no way. surely time travellers would know all our history and are familiar with all the terrible consequences the Other Candidate's term as president has brought and are able to view it from a perspective unbiased by the nasty mud-slinging of this campaign, so they won't remain unaffiliated but will support My Candidate fully.
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22:03:13 <wob_jonas> right, "short-sighted", that's what that sentence needs
22:04:01 <\oren\> it's interesting that both candidates are now essentially saying the world will literally end if the other one winds
22:04:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: well duh, people are always saying that
22:07:57 <\oren\> did they say that during the 2008 election?
22:08:19 <\oren\> I don't remeber them saying it over and over back then
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22:14:57 <HackEgo> wisdom/cocoonspirator \ wisdom/coonspirator \ wisdom/racoonspirator
22:15:15 <HackEgo> A racoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in fur
22:20:53 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:33:11 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
22:33:16 <HackEgo> A coonspirator is caterpillar silk wrapped in collaborators.
22:36:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:38:08 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*err*: No such file or directory
22:38:15 <HackEgo> wisdom/6 random numbers \ wisdom/abstract nonsense \ wisdom/adpoted \ wisdom/adventure \ wisdom/algebraic chess notation \ wisdom/algebraic number theory \ wisdom/al gore \ wisdom/alice \ wisdom/alise \ wisdom/all the tropes \ wisdom/almond bread \ wisdom/america \ wisdom/amnesium \ wisdom/amortized \ wisdom/antediluvian \ wisdom/applicative functo
22:38:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*dire*: No such file or directory
22:38:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/applicative functor \ wisdom/bicategory \ wisdom/cat \ wisdom/catamorphism \ wisdom/categorical product \ wisdom/category \ wisdom/category-helpdesk \ wisdom/category theory \ wisdom/cat elimination \ wisdom/cat introduction \ wisdom/implication \ wisdom/monoidal category
22:38:53 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
22:38:54 <fizzie> `learn Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse.
22:38:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'cocoon': Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse.
22:39:16 <HackEgo> cat elimination is the process of replacing a one-argument `cat` command with the shell operator <
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22:40:49 <fizzie> The thing is, "cat X | foo | bar | baz" has a much more natural ordering of things than "foo < X | bar | baz".
22:42:02 <fizzie> And "< X foo | bar | baz" just looks silly.
22:42:05 <wob_jonas> though of course it's almost impossible, because the difference is observable in too many ways
22:42:37 <wob_jonas> fizzie: of course it does. you should write it without the space after the angle bracket, like <X foo | bar | baz
22:43:04 <fizzie> I don't like the file name touching the operator.
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22:49:10 <\oren\> if cat is a builtin, then isn't it identical?
22:49:37 <izabera> cat isn't a builtin in most shells, and the pipe is still there
22:49:52 <izabera> you still fork but don't exec
22:49:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no. the program can seek the redirected file, or fstat or flock even do more evil things on it, but it gets just a pipe from cat
22:50:33 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it's not really the cat that matters, but the connection
22:51:13 <wob_jonas> plus also, once we're at shell level, we don't have the beautiful definition of the C standard as-if rule about what is "identical" enough. someone could kill the cat, or ptrace it or anything.
22:51:23 <wob_jonas> that's why you can't make an optimizing shell really
22:51:46 <pikhq> The closest you can do is a shell which implements as much as possible as builtins.
22:52:00 <pikhq> (this *is* actually allowed by the spec, but not a huge gain.)
22:53:04 <fizzie> Does the busybox shell actually run busybox commands builtin-like?
22:53:51 <fizzie> So if you kill it while it's pretending to be a gzip, you don't go back to the shell?
22:54:37 <\oren\> i assume that ^C is handled specially in that case though
22:54:49 <izabera> yeah just regular signal handlers
22:55:00 <\oren\> so you'd need another shell to kill it with
22:55:01 <izabera> but with sigkill of course there's not much you can do
22:55:12 <fizzie> That doesn't seem to happen on my busybox, at least for 'sleep'.
22:55:47 <izabera> let me find which apps are nofork
22:56:07 <fizzie> Maybe it's presumably-short-running ones.
22:56:27 <fizzie> Would make sense, since those would save the most.
22:57:20 <izabera> seq false whoami echo logname sync fsync touch true truncate yes basename dirname printenv pwd cat
23:09:54 <\oren\> could you make a program that compiles shell scripts into programs that fork, dup2, and exec?
23:10:22 <\oren\> izabera: a shell is an interpreter
23:10:24 <zzo38> Isn't the shell interpretive?
23:10:45 <izabera> so far i know no shell that compiles stuff
23:11:32 <izabera> you're only speeding up the interpretation part
23:12:16 <\oren\> and obfuscating the code at the same time
23:13:52 <wob_jonas> you can build a pessimized shell though, mind you
23:13:53 <izabera> the problem with this is that it works great with very simple shells but posix shells do a shitload of other stuff that's totally not trivial to translate
23:14:19 <wob_jonas> like http://blog.schmorp.de/2015-06-08-emulating-linux-mips-in-perl-1.html
23:14:39 <\oren\> and maybe this shell would have options to optimize things in unexpected ways
23:16:07 <\oren\> e.g. shell variables that are treated as numbers can be stored as numbers until such time as a string operation is performed upon them
23:16:39 <izabera> well it does that if you declare them as numeric variables
23:16:45 <wob_jonas> you know what they say about premature optimization
23:17:27 <wob_jonas> I mean, the ones in bash are sorry
23:17:31 <shachaf> you know what they say about floating point values
23:17:35 <shachaf> double, double, toil and trouble
23:18:21 <izabera> it's a song in a harry potter movie
23:18:22 <wob_jonas> fungot, could you lend me a newt's eye for the cocooncotion?
23:18:22 <fungot> wob_jonas: let's not and say we did! :-p cool. thanks.) since you bothered to type that
23:18:30 <izabera> but what was it before being sang in hp?
23:18:48 <wob_jonas> izabera: some lame Shakespeare stuff I think
23:18:51 <\oren\> it was a line from Macbeth
23:19:31 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMzrgXFeX_o
23:19:41 <\oren\> well, more I hate the people who don't translate shakespeare
23:20:05 <wob_jonas> "I should have married a crueler woman."
23:20:07 <izabera> Ait was in the disk 2 of the dvd
23:20:37 <\oren\> shakespeare is not written in modern english, therefore they should translate it into modern english before having kids read it
23:20:41 <shachaf> Eye of newt, and toe of frog, / Wool of bat, and pooch of dog
23:21:17 <Taneb> \oren\, striiiiiictly speaking, it is Modern English
23:21:30 <Taneb> Although you are well within your rights to argue I'm completely missing the point
23:21:40 <\oren\> in what possible sense?
23:21:59 <shachaf> \oren\: Some people defined some words and now everyone thinks their definitions are better than yours.
23:22:06 <\oren\> many words used by shakespeare are completely unknown to modern readers
23:22:20 <\oren\> or widely misunderstood
23:23:09 <Taneb> I personally find Shakespeare relatively easy to read
23:23:33 <wob_jonas> \oren\: well duh. he's made up a lot of new words. obviously not all would catch on. he still has quite a lot of success with many of them.
23:23:33 <\oren\> e.g. troth, wherefore, fair, whence
23:23:47 <Taneb> It uses slang that is unfamiliar, but so does a lot of stuff coming out of the US
23:24:11 <Taneb> So does a lot of stuff coming from 300 miles away in my home country's capital
23:25:00 <Taneb> Wherefore dost thou sayest such, shachaf?
23:25:16 <shachaf> Taneb: "dost thou sayest"?
23:25:38 <\oren\> shachaf: yes, but most modern people would understand it as meaning "when" but shakespeare meant "where"
23:25:41 <Taneb> "do you say", with singular you, attempting to emulate early modern english
23:25:58 <Taneb> \oren\, ...people understand it as meaning when?
23:26:03 <shachaf> Taneb: It reads more like "does he says" to me.
23:26:07 <wob_jonas> \oren\: what? we know what a "fair" is. it's either a convention where they're not trying to bother with a fixed schedule of presentations in large rooms because they know the point of a convention is people going around the stands in an unscheduled manner and meeting each other, or an adjective for elves.
23:26:25 <shachaf> \oren\: "whence" doesn't mean "where"
23:26:30 <shachaf> \oren\: It means "from where"
23:26:31 <Taneb> shachaf, well, clearly, you don't speak early modern english as well as I do
23:26:41 <Taneb> \oren\, I've never heard of anyone thinking it means "when" before
23:26:45 <\oren\> wob_jonas: yes, and shakespeare uses fair to mean "beautiful"
23:26:49 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you sure you're right about this?
23:26:56 <Taneb> \oren\, *I* use fair to mean beautiful
23:27:06 <shachaf> \oren\: "whence" means "from where", "hence" means "from here", "thence" means "from there"
23:27:07 <\oren\> Taneb: To a modern ear, wherefore means where, and whence means when
23:27:20 <shachaf> \oren\: "whither" means "to where", "hither" means "to here", "thither" means "to there"
23:27:26 <Taneb> \oren\, then I do not have a modern ear
23:27:37 <\oren\> wherefore art thou romeo = "where are you, romeo? I can't see you"
23:27:45 <Taneb> Wherefore being taken as where, I've heard of
23:27:50 <Taneb> Never whence being taken as when
23:27:54 <wob_jonas> And we know what a "whence" is too, it's the third argument of an lseek or fseek or similar function, and traditionally has the value of 0 for offset from start, 1 for offset from current position, 2 for offset from end of file, although these days some other values are possible.
23:28:06 <shachaf> wob_jonas makes a good point.
23:28:13 <HackEgo> wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
23:28:41 <wob_jonas> "fair" as beautiful, what's the point of that? we already have "pretty" and "handsome" to mean beautiful
23:28:44 <izabera> shachaf: so this is wrong? "from whence you came you shall remain"
23:28:47 <\oren\> Taneb: "From whence he came" = "he's a time traveller returning to his home time period"
23:28:55 <Taneb> wob_jonas, fair is a different kind of beautiful
23:29:10 <shachaf> izabera: I've heard "from whence". I'm not sure whether it's "wrong", it might just be redundant or something?
23:29:18 <Taneb> \oren\, I've seriously never heard anyone use it like that, or think it could be used like that before
23:29:55 <Taneb> wob_jonas, Legolas and Arwen are fair but not pretty or handsome, to me
23:30:22 <wob_jonas> no it's not! it's just partitioning the old fashioned chauvinist way: you say "beautiful" about women, "handsome" about men, "pretty" about children, and "fair" about elves, to enforce the notion that the roles of people in society should be determined by their gender and age and heritage.
23:30:31 <wob_jonas> they all mean the fucking same thing!
23:30:48 <wob_jonas> except, you know, when "fair" means a convention
23:31:14 <Taneb> I do associate them with different kinds of beauty, and there are definitely beautiful men and handsome women
23:31:50 <\oren\> "gainsay" most people today would interpret as "say again" but shakespeare meant "contradict, deny"
23:32:15 <shachaf> Taneb: I think the Thing from Addams Family is quite handsome.
23:32:31 <Taneb> shachaf, good for you
23:32:40 <shachaf> Taneb: what's that supposed to mean
23:32:49 <shachaf> is that some kind of insult
23:32:58 <wob_jonas> well, either it's clear to me that they're the same because I haven't grown up as an English speaker and so my head isn't full about ideas about which social classes of people should be beautiful in which ways, or I just don't understand the small difference between those worse because I've not grown up as an English speaker and I'm just imagining
23:33:06 <Taneb> shachaf, it means I disagree but recognize it's a valid opinion, and also I don't really care
23:33:27 <shachaf> It's not really an opinion.
23:33:43 <shachaf> I didn't know you could disagree with puns.
23:33:43 <Taneb> Oh! I was thinking of Cousin Itt
23:33:48 <shachaf> I guess you can find them disagreeable.
23:34:22 <wob_jonas> But since English has so many redundant synonyms, I'm always guessing the former by default.
23:34:56 <Taneb> wob_jonas, a lot of English synonyms have different connotations.
23:35:14 <Taneb> There are very few "true synonyms"
23:35:16 <shachaf> According to this book, beautiful men are rare: http://www.rulit.me/books/the-gone-away-world-read-423517-65.html
23:35:29 <Taneb> shachaf, I'd say Chris Hemsworth is one
23:35:41 <shachaf> "Ben was the rarest of things, a genuinely beautiful man. Good-looking men are commonplace, and beautiful woman are not rare. Male beauty, capable of overcoming the stigma attached to it and undeniable, is one in many hundreds of thousands."
23:36:10 <Taneb> I once saw a really beautiful man at university but I think he graduated before I got the chance to tell him so
23:36:23 <shachaf> Why would you tell someone so?
23:36:50 <shachaf> Cousin Itt and the Thing are really quite distinct.
23:36:56 <\oren\> "dateless" most people would think meant "unable to go to prom" but actually means "eternal"
23:36:56 <fizzie> shachaf: It's p. true: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=beautiful+man%2Cbeautiful+woman
23:36:59 <Taneb> Because it is more likely to make him happy than to make him sad
23:37:23 <shachaf> If you tell someone they're beautiful, it might make them happier.
23:37:31 <shachaf> But is it at the cost of making all people who aren't beautiful sadder?
23:37:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:37:46 <shachaf> By attaching too much value to beauty of people?
23:37:49 <Taneb> Most people who aren't beautiful wouldn't have heard me say he's beautiful
23:38:48 <\oren\> "diaper" meant "towel" to shakespeare
23:38:49 <shachaf> copumpkin is going to read a story this weekend -- I believe it's the very last one in the book -- which is about lookism.
23:39:22 <HackEgo> Vampires are a wizarding myth Professor Lupin invented to make students hate Professor Snape even more, after Professor Snape almost made the students realize he's a werewolf.
23:39:23 <\oren\> "imperious" meant "majestic" to shakespeare
23:39:35 <Taneb> ...imperious does mean majestic, doesn't it
23:39:48 <Taneb> What else does it mean?
23:39:49 <shachaf> \oren\: "fantastic" meant "unrealistic" rather than "excellent" to Heinlein.
23:39:55 <shachaf> \oren\: And that was in the 1950s or something.
23:40:30 <\oren\> shachaf: so new editions should translate the words
23:40:46 <shachaf> But good translations are hard.
23:40:50 <Taneb> \oren\, it's just a different dialect, should American books be translated in British publication?
23:40:53 <\oren\> not leave them the same and append ever increasing numbers of footnotes
23:40:54 -!- augur has joined.
23:40:58 <wob_jonas> \oren\: well duh, disposable diapers didn't exist back then. They were a rarity (in Eastern Europe) even when I was a baby, so I grown up with textile diapers on my ass and my parents had to wash them. How could Shakespeare had known?
23:41:05 <shachaf> Taneb: British books are translated in American publications, aren't they?
23:41:16 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't know, I've never bought a book in the US
23:41:22 <wob_jonas> "imperious" => is that even a word?
23:41:39 <\oren\> The first book of harry potter was "the sorceror's stone" in the USA
23:42:03 <\oren\> wob_jonas: yes and it means something like "overbearing" to a modern person
23:42:26 <Taneb> I'm going to bed now
23:42:44 <shachaf> copumpkin: what do you think of calliagnosia twh
23:42:52 <fizzie> wob_jonas: It's a misspelling of impervious hth
23:43:13 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I see. I mean, there's an M:tG card with "Imperious" in its name, but there are M:tG cards with all sorts of crazy rare English words, so that doesn't mean much
23:45:29 <shachaf> fizzie: Apparently BigQuery doesn't support proto data? #scow
23:47:03 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:50:09 <\oren\> "jaded" meant "contemptible" to Shakespeare
23:50:29 <wob_jonas> "contemptible" isn't even a word, is it?
23:50:42 <fizzie> shachaf: How can that even be a thing.
23:51:28 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm sure it'll all turn into protos somewhere deep in the machine.
23:51:48 <shachaf> Probably even somewhere shallow in the machine.
23:51:56 <shachaf> Everything turns into protos.
23:52:10 <fizzie> shachaf: Have you seen that "two kinds of jobs" meme-image?
23:52:12 <shachaf> But that doesn't help you if all you can upload is CSV data.
23:52:23 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it is. it means "worthy of being hated"
23:53:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:53:25 <fizzie> shachaf: I'd share it but I'm sure it's company confidential.
23:54:26 <shachaf> All images generated by the meme-image-generator-machine are confidential.
23:54:34 <\oren\> "vulgar" meant "of the people" in Shakespeare's time
23:54:53 <fizzie> Yes. This one's from 2012, so I presume you might have seen it, though I doubt it's super-popular.
23:55:50 <shachaf> It sounds vaguely familiar.
23:56:28 <shachaf> fizzie: What format would you use to store a log file containing protos?
23:57:40 <fizzie> Getting back to BigQuery, there seems to be something called Avro import (Apache thing with JSON-based schemas and proto-like binary wire format), and also something something Cloud Datastore. Though you're right -- no protos.
23:58:20 <shachaf> fizzie: The point of this would be queries on nested/heterogeneous data.
23:59:25 <fizzie> I don't know what's good for that, if anything.
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00:01:50 <fizzie> Outside of Dremel, I think it's all just JSON all the way down.
00:04:20 <fizzie> JSON with one line per object, and then you just parse it over and over and over again when looking for something.
00:04:31 <shachaf> fizzie: What if you semi-index it?
00:04:52 <shachaf> http://www.di.unipi.it/~ottavian/files/semi_index_cikm.pdf
00:05:39 <shachaf> Anyway the point is that I want more structure than JSON has.
00:06:09 <wob_jonas> shachaf: talk to zzo38 about that then
00:06:56 <zzo38> One kind of thing with more structure is to use RDF.
00:07:03 <oerjan> <shachaf> \ is upper-case | in IRC. <-- if those old charsets had stayed on, i might have been \rjan
00:07:04 <shachaf> Another thing is protobuf.
00:07:14 <fizzie> Regarding the paper, sounds clever but why wouldn't you just ColumnIO(/Capacitor).
00:07:14 <shachaf> oerjan: it's not too late hth
00:07:16 <zzo38> If you are doing text markup though, then XML might work.
00:07:51 <lambdabot> fizzie said 14h 28m 20s ago: I didn't realize filter 9 effectively disables anonymous editing; turning it off "properly" SGTM.
00:07:59 <shachaf> fizzie: If you can pre-parse things and put them in your own format, of course something human-readable like JSON isn't going to be as good.
00:08:30 * oerjan swats shachaf for making a fake @ask -----###
00:08:33 <shachaf> I didn't want to spam the channel.
00:09:12 <oerjan> shachaf: i use to count the number of lambdabot messages compared to what's in the log to see if it's safe to use @-loud hth
00:09:24 <zzo38> RDF is a easily readable/writable format too. Let's see what you need to make? In some cases, a binary format will work better
00:09:32 <shachaf> oerjan: I didn't realize that. v. clever
00:09:34 <zzo38> And, what programming language you are using.
00:09:50 <shachaf> fizzie: What do you think of Cap'n Proto?
00:09:59 <wob_jonas> fungot, is RDF a easily readable/writable format too? Let's see what you need to make? In some cases, a binary format will work better
00:10:08 <oerjan> fortunately fizzie's message doesn't look overly confidential :)
00:10:24 <zzo38> Such as, JavaScript will have JSON built-in and I wrote a library to read/write RDF too.
00:10:26 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out if there's a gambit for something I'm looking for
00:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> One of our cats escaped sometime yesterday, and today after coming home from school I decided to look around and found him in one of the neighbor's yards
00:11:27 <shachaf> oerjan: fizzie's message was in the channel too.
00:11:38 <hppavilion[1]> He couldn't have gotten in over the fence (he's old, a bit fat, and was declawed by the previous owners; he would have a hard time climbing the fence)
00:11:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Now I see what happened. You missed fizzie's message in the log, so the 1 lambdabot reported matched the 1 you saw.
00:12:04 <shachaf> And therefore it tricked you into revealing a message you thought was secret.
00:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> He couldn't have jumped it either, because I don't think I've ever seen him jump nearly high enough (and even if he could, he'd be way too scared)
00:12:13 <wob_jonas> hpp: went through a hole through the fence? isn't that what cats normally do?
00:12:14 <shachaf> I thought you were just confused by 1<2
00:12:17 <oerjan> <shachaf> @ask oerjan was that pun truly an accident? twh <-- which pun twh
00:12:36 <hppavilion[1]> He could've climbed in other, but I'm pretty sure he was stuck in their yard
00:12:49 <fizzie> shachaf: I think when I was reading about it, all the arguments made sense, more or less, but something in the style of the writing made me feel bad on behalf of protobufs. I mean the format itself.
00:12:53 <wob_jonas> cats can climb through holes you'd think are impossible to climb through. they have like epic skills.
00:13:08 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, the author of capnproto is the author of proto2.
00:13:12 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, but this looked thin even for a cat
00:13:57 <hppavilion[1]> Now, usually I'd just think he HAD managed to squeeze in and just couldn't get out for some reason (which seems unlikely)
00:14:10 <wob_jonas> hpp: another hole you didn't notice then?
00:14:28 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I could look for another hole, but for now let's assume this is the only hole
00:14:43 <hppavilion[1]> (also, their fence has only two sides, as this is a neighborhood of duplexes)
00:14:51 <fizzie> shachaf: I know, that's why I didn't feel bad for the author, just poor old proto2 itself. It's pretty irrational, but that's what soured me on the whole thing. Well, that and the name.
00:14:52 <oerjan> shachaf: itym "fiendish"
00:15:12 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, "insidious" was really an accident.
00:15:16 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: But the reason I'm suspicious is that we've had trouble with these particular neighbors before
00:15:23 <oerjan> afa my conscious mind is concerned, anyway.
00:16:04 <hppavilion[1]> One day last year when one of our other cats (much younger, much more cat-like) got out, they came over to complain about it
00:16:12 <wob_jonas> hpp: could someone have opened the gate of your yard?
00:16:36 <Moonythedwarf> fizzie: quick question: why is there no node.js & npm on hackego? :P
00:16:51 <hppavilion[1]> Because apparently she was showing up in their yard and they were annoyed because they were trying to attract birds
00:17:16 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I don't think he wanted to be there, because he was starving when I found him
00:17:39 <fizzie> Moonythedwarf: That's a Gregor question, really.
00:17:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you should be happy. one of my mom's friends' cat sneaked into a cellar room somewhere and they didn't find it until it had starved to death hth
00:17:49 <hppavilion[1]> So one of them (a woman) came over to complain about it (she apparently did not understand that pumpkin would not stay inside)
00:18:11 <hppavilion[1]> And she pretty much walked directly into out house
00:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> Like, we answered the door and she just stepped inside to start complaining
00:19:29 <hppavilion[1]> (Note for foreigners who may or may not have the same customs (I don't know if this varies): In the US, someone answering the door is not an invitation to enter. It's EXTREMELY rude, and a little bit aggressive, to walk in without an explicit invitation)
00:19:59 <hppavilion[1]> And I found him in their yard today, seemingly trapped
00:20:50 <hppavilion[1]> One of our neighbors (probably the same one) brought the youngcat (Pumpkin) to the pound today
00:21:13 <wob_jonas> hpp: my brother otld me stories about their cat and the evil neighbor, but not quite the same story.
00:21:32 <oerjan> shachaf: oh. i didn't really "miss" the message, but since i'd already reached the count i didn't keep searching for more.
00:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> And my best guess is that Pete went to their house when he realized he was ready to come home thinking it was ours (they're 2 doors down, so the same side of the duplex) and started complaining
00:21:36 <wob_jonas> evil neighbors hating your cat must be a trope or something
00:22:11 <hppavilion[1]> And they had already dealt with a cat today, so they just grabbed him and put him in their back yard until they could take him to the pound too
00:24:43 <hppavilion[1]> (I believe when I first saw him, he was in front of their back door wanting to get in- their back door is different from ours, so he probably didn't think it was us, and he would've just left if he could- but he was complaining to try to get inside, as if he'd already been in there)
00:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> I knocked on their door to ask if I could enter their back yard, but no one seemed to be home, so I eventually just opened their gate on my own, got him out as quickly as possible (it took longer than expected because he went and hid so I had to get food), and left
00:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> So if they did trap him, they don't know that I showed up and retrieved him, and they may not know he's gone
00:26:30 <hppavilion[1]> If he was just there and they had nothing to do with it, they won't know he was there at all (or they'd have just shooed him away)
00:26:51 <hppavilion[1]> And I'm wondering if there's some sort of gambit (like a Batman Gambit or a Xanatos Gambit) that we could use to see which it is based on what knowledge they have
00:27:53 <oerjan> <fizzie> Moonythedwarf: That's a Gregor question, really. <-- i thought there _was_ node.js somewhere and a program that used it. although perhaps not in the usual path. of course npm won't work assuming that needs network.
00:28:42 <fizzie> There is a js interpreter at least, I think.
00:29:15 <zzo38> Clearly npm won't work but I think probably Node.js should be added on HackEgo
00:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> My best idea is to pretend we haven't found him yet and ask if we can check their yard
00:29:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw in norway most cats roam freely, so someone like your neighbor would probably be laughed at.
00:29:53 <zzo38> You should add version 5 or 6
00:30:19 <HackEgo> Rhino 1.7 release 3 2012 02 13 \ js>
00:31:08 <Moonythedwarf> PRogram i have (clone of mr polybot's calculator for starts) _requires_ node to run
00:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> And if they say no, the most likely case is they think he's there and they don't want us to know we trapped him
00:31:50 <hppavilion[1]> But if they know he's gone, they have nothing to lose
00:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, we could say we just saw him back there, but then they might say yes even if they DO know he's there so that we don't think they're suspicious
00:32:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you know of any sort of gambit that'd work here?
00:33:01 <wob_jonas> hpp: sorry, I'm very bad at social engineering, so I'm definitely the wrong person to ask about this. maybe try one of the other nerds here.
00:35:21 <shachaf> Who here was the expert on differential forms?
00:36:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> (Note for foreigners who may or may not have the same customs (I don't know if this varies): <-- certainly rude in norway unless you know someone very well
00:36:34 <Moonythedwarf> i can install the other requirements (packages) via the power of
00:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Figured, seems like one of the more universal customs
00:42:16 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> And I'm wondering if there's some sort of gambit (like a Batman Gambit or a Xanatos Gambit) that we could use to see which it is based on what knowledge they have <-- hah, i was tempted to try that the other day in this channel. but i decided to let it go. you know who you are, unless it was the other one hth
00:43:07 <wob_jonas> hpp: although I was quite proud today of a completely accidental piece of social engineering I've done that might or might not have even worked
00:43:19 <hppavilion[1]> ...wookipedia has...http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Color
00:44:15 <wob_jonas> I commented on the blog of one geek person to point at the blog of another geek person with very similar interests, and now the first one seems to read the second one's blog, and backwards, which is a good thing, right?
00:45:49 <_46bit> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPa0TiCuvR4
00:46:06 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: seems reasonable to me
00:48:56 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan? <-- certainly not. i might be able to remember the basics if i try hard, which i don't feel like.
00:52:58 <oerjan> like, you do that product of formal variables divided out by antisymmetry thing
00:53:16 <oerjan> so x ^ x = 0 and x ^ y = - (y ^ x)
00:53:32 <oerjan> i suppose you'd usually put dx or dy
00:53:46 <oerjan> but these can be general vector space elements
00:53:57 <HackEgo> differential forms? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:54:03 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian).
00:54:11 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
00:54:21 <wob_jonas> Taneb didn't invent differential forms?
00:54:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?differential: not found
00:54:58 <HackEgo> differential forms? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:55:26 <oerjan> if you have a basis { e_i } for a vector space, then the corresponding n-forms have basis elements like e_i_1 ^ e_i_2 ^ ... ^ e_i_n where i is increasing
00:55:56 <wob_jonas> and then you do antisymmetric tensor products
00:56:05 <wob_jonas> ah yes, that's what you mean by the ^
00:56:08 <shachaf> oerjan: So unordered sets of basis elements?
00:56:09 <wob_jonas> I think it should be spelled /\ though
00:56:30 <oerjan> wob_jonas: ok, i'm going by vague memory here
00:56:43 <shachaf> oerjan: you're doing a good job for not feeling like remembering the basics tdh
00:56:50 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, not just unordered sets. antisymmetric tensor products
00:57:01 <oerjan> shachaf: no, they're ordered, but you only do the increasing ones because the others are equivalent to the increasing ones times a sign by antisymmetry
00:57:18 <oerjan> or you could do only decreasing, i guess.
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00:58:48 <oerjan> shachaf: well i guess. you're supposed to extend ^ to arbitrary vectors though
00:59:11 <shachaf> I meant that those are the basis elements, which you can then define ^ in terms of.
00:59:12 <oerjan> which requires keeping track of sign of the permutations
00:59:15 <shachaf> But maybe that doesn't simplify anything.
00:59:50 <oerjan> shachaf: well i guess it might.
01:00:40 <shachaf> Anyway I thought dx was usually vector in the cotangent space or something like that?
01:00:43 <oerjan> then you would define e_i_1 ^ e_i_2 ^ e_i_3 ... more generally as {i_1, ..., i_n} times the sign of the permutation
01:01:15 <oerjan> shachaf: well sure, after you've defined this, you apply it to cotangent bundles or what it was
01:01:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, of which the e are a basis of
01:02:43 <oerjan> i suppose you don't have to go via basis, but can just do it abstractly as a quotient, but the basis helps with calculations?
01:03:45 <wob_jonas> oerjan: the basis gives the definition, but then of course you have to prove this stuff is consistent as in if you change the basis you can extend the change of basis to the antisymmetric tensor product space such that it keeps the antisymmetric tensor product operation.
01:04:24 <wob_jonas> which is important, because you need change of basis if you can't give a single basis everywhere on the manifold
01:05:09 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: you're doing a good job for not feeling like remembering the basics tdh <-- i started feeling a little better hth
01:05:40 <wob_jonas> And then you need to define the antisymmetric differential operator (denoted by a mirrored six) which takes (a suitably smooth functions from the manifold to one of these spaces) to (a suitably smooth function from the manifold to the next one of these spaces),
01:05:56 <wob_jonas> and the big surprise is that mirrored six composited to mirrored six turns out to be zero!
01:06:01 <wob_jonas> Also, there's some stuff with duals.
01:06:07 <wob_jonas> I dunno what I'm talking about either.
01:06:15 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Mirrored six? Isn't this one usually just written as d?
01:06:18 <wob_jonas> But I think there are nerds on the internet who do this.
01:06:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, it's a d, I'm just stupid
01:06:56 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i suppose the antisymmetric tensor product is the universal object through which you can factor antisymmetric linear functions. which might be more to shachaf's liking.
01:07:21 <wob_jonas> oerjan: uh, that sounds nice, I've no idea what it means
01:09:13 <oerjan> it means that if you have U and V, then U /\ V is a vector space such that for any W, and any antisymmetric bilinear function f : (U, V) -> W, there is a unique g : U /\ V -> W such that f = g o (/\)
01:09:23 <oerjan> or something very close to that.
01:09:44 <oerjan> (if you dropped the antisymmetric, you'd get the usual tensor product this way)
01:10:59 <oerjan> now, the next step is to note that the basis definition fulfils this, after which you can essentially throw it away and use the universal property from there on.
01:11:25 <oerjan> you cannot use different U and V there
01:11:49 <oerjan> which means, i guess, you need to consider all U /\ U /\ ... /\ U simultaneously
01:12:13 <oerjan> wob_jonas: antisymmetry makes no sense if you're not starting with identical vector spaces
01:12:23 <wob_jonas> that sounds true but I don't really understand what the point of that is. that doesn't sound like factoring, it just sounds like extending,
01:12:41 <wob_jonas> where you define the function g such that f gives its value on the basis elements of the tensor-product space
01:12:50 <oerjan> wob_jonas: well it's a category theoretical universal property, they all look like that.
01:13:15 <wob_jonas> oerjan: but how does the antisymmetric derivative and the duality come into all this?
01:13:31 <oerjan> wob_jonas: the thing is, once you have done this, the fact that it's all invariant under basis changes becomes completely trivial
01:14:26 <wob_jonas> I mean, the part where what becomes invariant?
01:14:35 <oerjan> because universal objects defined by the same universal property are automatically isomorphic.
01:15:23 <oerjan> wob_jonas: well the universal property gives you a definition of /\ which does not speak about the basis of the original spaces
01:16:41 <wob_jonas> it's true that it doesn't speak about the basis of U^n, but does it completely determine the U/\.../\U space?
01:19:16 <oerjan> yes, up to isomorphism.
01:19:36 <oerjan> consider if you had two objects fulfilling this.
01:20:10 <oerjan> T1 and T2, with corresponding embeddings /\_1 and /\_2
01:20:24 <wob_jonas> ok, I'm looking what crazy category theory argument you're going to pull on me
01:20:51 <shachaf> universal properties are tg
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01:22:07 <oerjan> then note that f (v1, ..., vn) = v1 /\_2 v2 /\_ ... /\_ vn is an antisymmetric multilinear function, so by the universal property of T1, you have g : T1 -> T2 such that f = g o (... /\_1 ... /\_1 ...) (i hope you can guess what the notation means)
01:22:29 <oerjan> er missed some 2's up there
01:23:01 <oerjan> oh of course the property should also say that g is linear
01:23:20 <wob_jonas> sure, you need linearity everywhere
01:23:34 <oerjan> and the other way you get g' : T2 -> T1, and it's easy to show g and g' are inverses.
01:23:46 <oerjan> thus T1 and T2 are isomorphic.
01:24:19 <wob_jonas> yeah, something like that probably works
01:24:25 <oerjan> this is just about how these arguments always go.
01:25:16 <wob_jonas> don't take this in a bad way, I also do such abstract arguments sometimes, I just also like the humor in how we do them instead of the more easy to understand concrete stuff it translates to
01:25:44 <shachaf> It's maybe only hard to understand because you made him spell it out.
01:25:53 <shachaf> Otherwise you can just say that it's a universal property.
01:26:02 <shachaf> Or that it's initial in some category or something.
01:26:32 <shachaf> The trouble is describing the category that you care about, but you need to do that anyway, except you normally do it implicitly.
01:27:12 <oerjan> wob_jonas: of course half the point is that once you have seen one case of this, you don't really have to relearn it completely for the next case
01:27:38 <oerjan> so it's a one time cost, after which you can use universal properties everywhere
01:27:54 <shachaf> universal properties are the best
01:28:36 <wob_jonas> that's how all this abstract maths stuff works. you prove some crazy general theorem and then hope you can use it more than once
01:28:47 <shachaf> oerjan: well, they have to be the best
01:28:51 <shachaf> that's what universality is hth
01:28:52 <alercah> the pgraph minors theorem is stupid
01:29:04 <oerjan> shachaf: well in theory they could also be the worst
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01:34:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ok, so was there something more specific about differential forms you wanted to know? I presume you didn't just want to find out why the wedge tensor product is well-defined.
01:35:07 <shachaf> Well, that was pretty good.
01:35:21 <shachaf> I got a book about smooth manifolds so I think maybe I'll read that.
01:35:30 <wob_jonas> yeah, but I still don't know what's up with the d operator and the duals
01:36:39 <wob_jonas> I mean, I know once you do the d o d = 0 theorem generally, you'll get about five of those basic integral theorems on R**2 and R**3 that have fancy individual names, like the Green's theorem and stuff.
01:37:08 <shachaf> Well, Stokes' theorem is obviously the best one.
01:37:54 <oerjan> green's theorem is like warm-up.
01:38:06 <wob_jonas> And I think one of the goals for working with differentiable functions on manifolds is to be able to define invariants of manifolds, as in topological invariants or differentiable invariants,
01:38:24 <wob_jonas> which you can use that two manifolds are not isomorphic in some way,
01:38:33 <shachaf> Is Stokes' theorem an adjunction?
01:38:49 <wob_jonas> and eventually prove rigorously that a donut isn't a sphere.
01:39:55 <wob_jonas> Not even up to homotopically equivalence.
01:40:06 <wob_jonas> Which is kind of nice to know, and pretty hard to prove otherwise I think.
01:40:19 <oerjan> wob_jonas: that's not too hard since they have different fundamental groups.
01:41:34 <oerjan> i'm not sure how much differentiable stuff helps with proving topological invariants, i didn't learn it that way.
01:42:59 <oerjan> wob_jonas: now, proving that R^m is not R^n for m/=n is a bit harder.
01:44:43 <shachaf> can you distinguish wisdom entries by their fundamental grep?
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01:47:01 <wob_jonas> Also, I think physicists use this differentiable forms on manifolds stuff too, for some physical reasons. Maybe they want basis-invariant physical laws because they find them nicer or something.
01:51:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Malbranche]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49700 * Oerjan * (+158) Thanks!
01:52:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Malbranche]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49701&oldid=49700 * Oerjan * (+23) Um there was more
01:54:21 <oerjan> wob_jonas: general relativity has coordinate-invariance as one of its fundamental principles.
01:55:48 <oerjan> and iirc, in other cases, it helps determining which properties of your physical system are really fundamental rather than just an accident of description.
01:57:44 <wob_jonas> But what I don't get is, why is the d operator actually important? Does it have some sort of universal property?
01:57:49 <oerjan> (i recall reading terry tao used differential geometry when investigating variants of fluid dynamics recently.
01:59:14 <wob_jonas> What is it that singles out the d operator (up to constant factor) from the other ((M->U^/\n)->(M->U^/\(n+1))) operators?
02:00:09 <oerjan> well general relativity doesn't use that d iirc, unless there's a reformulation which does
02:00:26 <oerjan> (it wasn't based on antisymmetry)
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02:01:21 <oerjan> wob_jonas: it might be that dd = 0 determines it up to equivalence, or something...
02:01:40 <oerjan> also, dd= 0 is the property you want for things that define homologies.
02:02:03 <oerjan> (aka i don't really know the answer)
02:08:10 <oerjan> <shachaf> I thought so, but then someone in another channel said it was a Google thing. <-- sounds google to me
02:13:19 <wob_jonas> oerjan: dd = 0 can't determine it alone, you need some other property too
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02:14:52 <wob_jonas> I mean, if dd=0 is the only thing you want, then why couldn't you just move U^/\n in place with some non-singular linear transform to itself but leave the U^/\k for all k!=n alone?
02:15:43 <wob_jonas> There has to be something that treats U^/\n as more than just a vector space.
02:15:47 <oerjan> presumably stokes' theorem is what makes it important.
02:17:21 <oerjan> oh right, de Rham's theorem is what i was looking for.
02:17:30 <wob_jonas> Why is stokes theorem important, as in, why do you want a theorem about that particular differential form?
02:18:42 <wob_jonas> De Rham's theorem? Dunno, I feel there has to be some lower level explanation than that.
02:19:35 <wob_jonas> As in /\ on the vectors, not /\ on the vector spaces.
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02:23:19 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas i mean that stokes' theorem tells you how to get d from integration, essentially.
02:24:31 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas oh, and of course i mean the _generalized_ stokes' theorem, that includes all the special cases like green's theorem.
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02:34:15 <quintopia> what fraction of all english words would you guess are ALL CAPS
02:37:13 <oerjan> <\oren\> If he wins, the cold war is over, with victory to Russia <-- you make it sound like a good thing
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02:52:31 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
03:07:00 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, Apache Drill might be able to do it.
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03:16:51 <izabera> and i made a http request to icanhazip.com with netcat
03:18:03 <izabera> this is so cool, i'll write them
03:19:11 <shachaf> fizzie: Also I can convert to JSON and then query for many use cases.
03:19:16 <shachaf> fizzie: You recommend jq for that?
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03:37:17 <oerjan> @tell gamemanj <gamemanj> I wonder why so many people are unaffiliated? <-- it's the only cloak you can get if you're not part of a group that's officially on freenode, me thinks
03:38:14 <shachaf> And you might prefer to get it even if you are affiliated.
03:38:41 <oerjan> yeah i rephrased myself in the middle of writing that because of that
03:41:58 <zzo38> izabera: That work good.
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03:43:48 <zzo38> It supports headerless HTTP even; that is very good.
03:45:04 <zzo38> Now I can more easily check what is my global IP address, because I made a shell script of it.
03:45:23 <zzo38> (I have a router, so the computer's own IP address is not the same as the address accessible by internet.)
03:51:49 <zzo38> If you are using other format and then convert to JSON and then query for many use cases, is there a JavaScript module to do that with? If there is no such things on npm then I or you could add those program on
03:53:27 <pikhq> zzo38: And Chrome just deprecated HTTP/0.9, too... :)
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03:55:58 <zzo38> pikhq: That shouldn't matter much since it is the client rather than the server.
03:56:41 <pikhq> True, it only really prevents Chrome from working with HTTP/0.9-only servers, while servers are still perfectly free to still support HTTP/0.9-only clients.
03:57:05 <pikhq> There's probably nearly zero HTTP/0.9-only servers. Or clients for that matter, but it's also lower impact to support for servers.
03:57:44 <zzo38> It is useful for the server to support it for use with clients that are not HTTP clients, mainly.
03:57:56 <shachaf> I'm often an HTTP/0.9 client.
03:59:03 <pikhq> And it's trivial to tell if a request is an HTTP/0.9 request, unlike for responses.
03:59:31 <pikhq> With responses, you start getting not-headers and it *might* be an HTTP/0.9 response, or it might be some server being busted.
03:59:43 <pikhq> With requests, you see the "GET" line doesn't have a verrsion number.
04:01:01 <zzo38> Yes. Making a HTTP client working with HTTP/0.9-only servers is probably a bit messy anyways, so a client should not need this functionality. It is a very useful functionality for servers to have though. (If a HTTP client does want to support HTTP/0.9-only servers too, it should probably be a user option.)
04:04:41 <zzo38> (If you don't need support for HTTP headers and stuff in your server, don't make a HTTP/0.9-only server; make a gopher server instead.)
04:05:21 <izabera> make it a http 1.0 server maybe?
04:05:34 <izabera> i heard that http 1.0 supports http 1.0 headers
04:10:34 <zzo38> Yes, you can support HTTP/0.9 and HTTP/1.0 in one server; implement both. You don't need a HTTP/0.9-only server though.
04:11:32 <pikhq> A simple HTTP/1.0 client isn't too bad either, for that matter.
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04:12:45 <zzo38> Yes, and it is a good idea for any HTTP client to support that. However, the server probably ought to support HTTP/0.9 too.
04:13:08 <pikhq> Considering HTTP/1.0 requires it from servers, I agree. :)
04:13:51 <izabera> pikhq | A simple HTTP/1.0 client isn't too bad either, for that matter. <- then why are they taking so long to develop chrome and firefox?!?
04:14:56 <pikhq> Because those do a *lot* more than HTTP/1.0.
04:17:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49702 * 12Me21 * (+1928) created the page lol XD
04:18:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49703&oldid=49702 * 12Me21 * (+10) added proper file extension
04:19:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49704&oldid=49703 * 12Me21 * (-143) removed influenced because LIES
04:20:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49705&oldid=49704 * 12Me21 * (+0) replaced [] with the correct symbols
04:22:03 <pikhq> Hrm, I once again have an Internet-connected DOS VM.
04:22:09 <pikhq> If only I had *any* use for such a machine.
04:23:38 <oerjan> if e tries to edit the Main Page too, e gets a block.
04:26:04 <oerjan> admittedly featuring it _might_ have some positive effects, in theory.
04:30:17 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM
04:30:48 <\oren\> once again I have been wtching this over and over for half an hour
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04:36:52 <pikhq> shachaf: Not quite yet.
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04:39:47 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=astISOttCQ0
04:47:03 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3owVbVZNKs
04:47:06 <oerjan> @ask Taneb <Taneb> Never whence being taken as when <-- what about twice?
04:47:23 <\oren\> ok now I'm just linking crazy memes of the earyl 2000's
04:51:05 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6CDFn2i3I
04:52:34 <zzo38> If you make up a esoteric programming language called "Main Page", then what are you going to do about it?
04:53:01 <zzo38> (Or even, a book or movie or anything called "Main Page", and if a Wikipedia article should be needed.)
04:57:46 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17FEtaiWdVg
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05:07:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> Cousin Itt and the Thing are really quite distinct. <-- one is handsome, the other is hair
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06:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to write the time as 24:10, would Europe scorn one?
07:01:37 <hppavilion[1]> Base prime: Given the standard functions along with the additional pmor(x) and ples(x), which return the smallest prime number greater than x and the greatest prime number less than x (fallback on 0) respectively
07:02:31 <hppavilion[1]> bprime(n) := ples(n)+(n-ples(n))/(pmor(n)-ples(n))
07:03:52 <hppavilion[1]> bprime(n) := primenum(ples(n))+(n-ples(n))/(pmor(n)-ples(n)), where primenum(p) takes a prime p and returns its index (primenum(2) = 1, primenum(3) = 2, primenum(5) = 3, 7 -> 4, 11 -> 5, 13 -> 6, etc.)
07:04:35 <\oren\> at least, according to my computer
07:05:32 <\oren\> irssi is displaying 06:18, I have no idea why
07:07:00 <\oren\> how does a could server end up with such a time offset
07:13:10 <deltab> in ISO 8601, 24:00:00 is accepted for the instant at the end of a day, equivalent to 00:00:00 of the next day; but otherwise the hour can't be above 23
07:13:42 <deltab> I've heard though that tv schedulers use 06 to 30 or so
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07:34:35 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: I reformed the calendar. To distinguish dates, they are prefixed with "NRC" and the separator is "~"
07:49:59 <\oren\> I reformed the year numbering. Year 0 is 1970. this year is 46
07:54:09 <fizzie> shachaf: I recommend jq for the sort of processing I normally do with ... | sed | awk | sed | grep | perl | ... sort of overly complicated shell "oneliners", if you do have JSON data.
07:55:50 <fizzie> @tell pikhq There was at least one router with a HTTP/0.9-only admin interface, it made them pause a little. Anyway, ISTR in the end they only deprecated HTTP/0.9 for nonstandard ports for now, since that's what the security concern was (mostly) about.
07:57:08 <\oren\> o no, whar iz lamdabot?
07:59:06 <fizzie> Or, rather, my client says 28 people left due to a split, one came back, and then there's a dribble of some other people rejoining, but some are still gone.
07:59:10 <fizzie> fungot: At least you're still here.
07:59:11 <fungot> fizzie: i didnt build it; its a package from ubuntu and php homes of irc-ignorant fnord worldwide. but i think i know where quack is located......
07:59:38 <fizzie> Did you know a duck's quack doesn't echo? (That's not actually true.)
08:01:53 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3CKZqEiALE
08:02:50 <\oren\> since oerjan was complaining I decided to listen to a wider variety of music
08:06:02 <\oren\> hmm now I want to play HOI4
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08:20:26 * oerjan notes this song in \oren\'s link that has "Stalin" in nearly every line
08:25:39 * oerjan thinks that was a bit much
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08:36:09 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Shouldn't the taxonomic group above Kingdom be Empire? )
08:37:06 <oerjan> taxonomic groups are so pre-cladistic, anyway
08:39:15 <oerjan> can't those cross groups, anyway
08:39:32 <izabera> what looks better https://arin.ga/JGh7kM/raw vs https://arin.ga/rREUCG/raw
08:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> (I do think we need something above Domain that just means "the beginning"; barring panspermia, it would be so we could sort Jovian life against Earth life)
08:39:49 <izabera> 3 3d arrays or 1 4d array?
08:39:59 <fizzie> According to WordNet, domain is fine: http://sprunge.us/hcfM
08:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> (spellcheck thinks "Prokaryotes" is a typo of "Protestants")
08:41:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: probably written by a catholic
08:41:58 <fizzie> izabera: In my opinion, if you already have three indices, why not go for broke and have the fourth.
08:42:20 <hppavilion[1]> (I think we need to resort the species into Democratic Republics instead of Kingdoms)
08:45:17 <hppavilion[1]> Domain -> Kingdom -> Subkingdom -> Infrakingdom -> Superphylum -> Phylum -> Subphylum -> Infraphylum -> Microphylum -> Superclass -> Class -> Subclass -> Infraclass -> Parvclass -> Legion -> Cohort -> Magnorder -> Superorder -> Order -> Suborder -> Infraorder -> Parvorder -> Section [zoology only] -> Superfamily -> Family -> Subfamily -> Supertribe -> Tribe -> Subtribe -> Genus -> Subgenus (Church of the?) -> Section (botany only) ->
08:45:17 <hppavilion[1]> Series -> Species -> Subspecies -> Variety -> Form
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17:25:38 <zzo38> My idea to make new custom Magic: the Gathering card and do you have the idea too?
17:39:38 <zzo38> One kind of variant game I thought of would be this: There is a new pseudotype called "main" and each player will have one "main card" which is not a card or object and does not exist in any zone of the game. As a state-based action, if a main token owned by a player does not exist, create a main token owned and controlled by that player, with the characteristics of that player's main card.
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17:42:00 <zzo38> "Main" is a designation that an object has (somewhat like an object can be a "commander"), and is not a characteristic. Also as a state-based action, any main token controlled by a player different from its owner ceases to exist.
17:42:22 <zzo38> These "main card" are different from existing cards
17:46:48 <shachaf> What sorts of main tokens would there be?
17:49:16 <zzo38> I am not quite sure; of course how well game is work depends what is available. They could be any permanent, although I thought mainly some planeswalkers designed specifically to be the main cards, that need some time before you will activate the ultimate ability, although in some cases other types of permanents might also do.
17:57:16 <zzo38> If it doesn't quite work so well perhaps to add the following rule: As a special action you can destroy a main token you own. To do this costs an amount of generic mana equal to the total number of times you used this special action so far including the current instance.
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18:22:15 <\oren\> lambdabot has returned!
18:27:18 <Zarutian> hmm.. I am battling with one of the main problems in computer programming: naming things
18:28:07 <zzo38> Zarutian: What do you try to name?
18:28:46 <Zarutian> spefically an esoteric language that is pretty much an union of a macro system and primitive recursive functions
18:29:37 <myname> quickbooks support hotline *scnr*
18:30:23 <Zarutian> (definitions of macros must preceed their usage references to keep the language non turing complete)
18:31:21 <Zarutian> (and self referencing is not allowed)
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18:52:24 <moonythedwarf_> Irc is the only chat i can really use when i need 1 Mbit/s for a large download :/
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19:30:14 <zzo38> I think IRC is a better chat protocol than most other anyways
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19:54:31 <\oren\> They should just build any new chat stuff on top of IRC
19:55:15 <\oren\> similar to the way C++ is built on top of C
19:56:42 <\oren\> but hopefully without C++'s habit of adding new systems with no advantage over the old ones
20:10:43 <fizzie> There's a Finnish magazine aimed for teenage girls, with a discussion forum for a somewhat wider audience; they used to also have a chat feature on the website; that was built on top of IRC.
20:11:27 <fizzie> I chatted briefly with the programmers, because they were curious when someone connected to the thing using an actual IRC client.
20:12:16 <fizzie> Wonder if BitlBee is still buzzing along.
20:13:25 <fizzie> Latest release 2016-03-19, so maybe not entirely dead.
20:14:30 <fizzie> Impressive, they've now got a way to use Skype that doesn't involve running an actual Skype client. (Goes via web.skype.com.)
20:15:51 <zzo38> I have used actual IRC client when I had previously found only the client included on the webpage but instead I looked at the source so that I can connect by proper IRC client instead.
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21:23:20 <hppavilion[1]> http://static02.mediaite.com/themarysue/uploads//2011/01/xmenfamilytree-labeled.jpeg confuses me...
21:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> The key has 6 options (blue solid, teal dotted, red solid, gold dotted, green solid, purple dotted)
21:25:45 <hppavilion[1]> And I take it the star on several of Cyclops's offspring indicates some genetic thing? e.g. Phoenix Force?
21:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> This isn't a "read more comics" thing, it's just a "your chart is stupid" thing
21:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> "Science flies you to the moon; Religion flies you into buildings, and Science built the thing you were flying, as well as the building."
21:34:03 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is it possible for two people to have consanguinity >= 1? )
21:34:35 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Wait, no, I mean >0.5. Obviously =1 is clones (or identical twins), greater is impossible )
21:36:04 <hppavilion[1]> Has anyone developed the field of love trigonometry?
21:39:23 <wob_jonas> hppavilion: I guess the guys on TvTropes probably have
21:39:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: I think possibly dotted red at top is an in-law sibling (a stepbrother in this case).
21:42:09 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: They have http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TriangRelations, which basically just describes all possible 3-node digraphs (with no loops (but yes cycles), repeated edges, or isolated nodes)
21:42:36 <hppavilion[1]> But that's more love-graph-theory than love trigonometry
21:44:08 <hppavilion[1]> (They did it pretty well, too, by making sure to exclude isomorphic triangles and such, as they're the same situation where each person is someone else)
21:44:45 <hppavilion[1]> When I think of a love triangle, I generally think of triangle #2, which is also called the "Love Cycle"
21:45:15 <zzo38> Don't you know that All The Tropes is more better than the TV Tropes?
21:45:41 <HackEgo> A card game where you win if you collect *all* of the tropes.
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21:53:12 <int-e> hmm, tis-100 dataflow is a bit annoying, but I found the TIS-NET directory (oh no...)
22:01:02 <FireFly> is that the second set of stages?
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22:03:20 <int-e> well there's the initial 5x5 segment map... and right now that looks like another of those indeed
22:04:29 <int-e> and I'm still missing two programs for the initial map
22:12:07 <FireFly> Which ones? I think I'm missing one
22:12:26 <int-e> exposure mask viewer and sequence sorter
22:13:01 <FireFly> Right, I don't think I implemented the sort
22:13:02 <shachaf> I should get that game running on my new computer.
22:13:28 <FireFly> I should get steam working again
22:13:31 <int-e> the latter is tedious, and the former requires juggling four values... need to try it when I'm not so tired
22:13:53 <FireFly> I should also add you on steam probably
22:15:19 <shachaf> int-e doesn't do adding or steam
22:16:12 <int-e> that's mostly true. (I have a community-free, friendless, steam account)
22:16:53 <int-e> and I've been up for 17 hours, good night
22:20:54 <fizzie> I'm missing 'sequence mode calculator' still, it seems.
22:21:16 <fizzie> Everything else in both things are nominal.
22:21:30 <fizzie> I think I had some pretty awful solutions for some stuff, though.
22:22:35 <fizzie> Exposure mask viewer was pretty simple, I think.
22:23:10 <fizzie> But my sequence sorter is something really crufty.
22:25:08 <fizzie> 8 nodes and 91 instructions; my one friend on the list has 4 and 57, respectively.
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22:28:12 <shachaf> My solutions are embarrassing.
22:28:20 <shachaf> I should jam some more later.
22:28:24 <fizzie> That's how I feel about mine.
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22:47:46 <quintopia> i have no idea what all that means
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23:02:22 <fizzie> http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/
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23:42:28 <zzo38> I have tried things and failed to figure out how to make a add-on for Node.js
23:43:08 <Taneb> I auditioned for a web video series and got a part!
23:44:03 <zzo38> There is FFI, but that is slow
23:44:11 <Taneb> I think now I'm going to bed
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01:19:00 <oerjan> @ask Taneb was it DWFO?
01:19:51 <oerjan> `learn DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra.
01:19:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'dwfo': DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra.
01:20:32 <oerjan> it happened to be announced today on a forum i know Taneb sometimes reads
01:53:21 <izabera> clang -Weverything enables the weirdest warnings
01:53:28 <izabera> warning: variable length array used [-Wvla]
01:53:38 <izabera> warning: format string is not a string literal [-Wformat-nonliteral]
01:54:09 <izabera> warnings about padding in structs
01:54:42 <izabera> how am i supposed to do these things? o.o
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02:01:29 <zzo38> Then enable only the warnings you will need.
02:04:40 <izabera> 1 real bug, 3 harmless-but-ok-lets-change-it bugs and about 180 bogus warnings
02:10:49 <zzo38> Then enable everything and then selectively disable the warnings that you don't want.
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02:21:39 <izabera> make -B CC=clang 'CFLAGS=-Weverything -O1 -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -Wno-disabled-macro-expansion -Wno-missing-prototypes -Wno-padded -Wno-reserved-id-macro -Wno-date-time -Wno-shorten-64-to-32 -Wno-format-nonliteral -Wno-sign-conversion -Wno-vla -Wno-conversion -Wno-switch-enum -Wno-cast-qual -Wno-unused-macros'
02:23:04 <izabera> make -B CC=clang 'CFLAGS=-Weverything -O1 -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -Wno-disabled-macro-expansion -Wno-missing-prototypes -Wno-padded -Wno-reserved-id-macro -Wno-date-time -Wno-shorten-64-to-32 -Wno-format-nonliteral -Wno-sign-conversion -Wno-vla -Wno-conversion -Wno-switch-enum -Wno-cast-qual -Wno-unused-macros -pedantic -std=c11'
02:24:07 <izabera> that kind of defeats the point of -Weverything -_-
02:26:11 <oerjan> izabera: i thought the point of -Weverything was to have an option that includes warnings which frequently give false positives; otherwise you use -Wall.
02:32:27 <izabera> it's funny because it also warns about stuff i didn't write
02:32:44 <izabera> e.g. glibc does this in stdio.h #define stderr stderr
02:33:05 <izabera> and -Wdisabled-macro-expansion warns because it's a recursive macro
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02:50:39 <zzo38> Why does glibc do that in stdio.h?
02:52:42 <pikhq> Because ISO C requires stderr to be a macro.
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03:29:36 <zzo38> Why is that, though? What exactly is caused by it being a macro in this way?
03:30:25 <zzo38> I can understand why it might say that it MAY be a macro, but I don't know why it should say that it MUST be a macro.
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03:54:04 <pikhq> My guess is some notable body of pre-ISO C code relied on it, and the ISO standard committee wanted to avoid breaking working code if at all possible.
03:54:30 <pikhq> (the latter isn't part of the guess, just explanation for why the former matters as rationale)
03:56:02 <pikhq> I will grant it's really dumb, but that's still what I'm guessing.
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04:18:09 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( If we want to specifically refer to a man who is married, could we say "Missus Consort"? )
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04:33:05 <zzo38> I think I might have seen vertical interval timecode signals on an old TV set that I no longer have. I did see they were some sort of time signal, and perhaps that is what it is.
04:33:27 <zzo38> (I only found the description on Wikipedia today. It was a long time ago that I saw it on TV, though.)
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05:06:21 <zzo38> Someone has told me some of my suggested optimizations for Z-code are extreme.
05:21:32 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/MpPSPQq7oas?t=3m38s
05:23:20 <\oren\> "You can't break this plane. You can land this plane on its fuselage, jack it up, put down the landing gear and then you can take off again."
05:58:39 <zzo38> Do you think this meaning code sharing is OK? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/raw/tavernc-parser.c?name=6156d70564da7cdfced7aa6cc25350dac895ea1b
05:59:37 <zzo38> (Search for "share_meanings")
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07:22:30 <hppavilion[1]> Went to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
07:25:43 <shachaf> You seem to have confused this IRC channel with Twitter.
07:25:51 <int-e> meh I just found this ViewPattern: (urlEncode -> query) ... and I don't like it.
07:26:21 <pikhq> My experience with Twitter is the only mode of interaction it has is retweets.
07:26:24 <pikhq> Nothing like IRC at all.
07:26:45 <shachaf> Perfect for this variety of joke, I think.
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07:27:29 <int-e> hmm, slightly surreal: http://sprunge.us/SIPH
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07:28:12 <shachaf> It's like Garfield minus Garfield.
07:28:34 <int-e> shachaf: it's elegant but a pattern match should not modify data... perhaps prepare it into something digestible... but to my mind url encoding is an important "effect" in some vague sense.
07:29:44 <shachaf> int-e: What about f s | let query = urlEncode s = ...?
07:29:48 <int-e> shachaf: I can see a few advantages (the non-URL-encoded thing isn't even in scope) so perhaps I'll grow to like the pattern.
07:30:06 <shachaf> I like the idea of not even naming a thing that you would only use once anyway.
07:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> When I see the sentence "Every farmer who owns a donkey beats it."
07:53:23 <hppavilion[1]> And I always end up interpreting it as "Every farmer who owns a donkey masturbates"
08:13:21 <hppavilion[1]> I'm looking at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_gays_should_not_be_allowed_to_edit_articles... and I think I got linked there from Uncyclopedia... but I don't actually see why it exists...
08:14:25 <hppavilion[1]> I thought the title was the /argumentum ad absurdum/ of various proposals, but that the content would be serious
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08:31:11 <myname> protip: if you want people to click on your links, do not add dots at the end of them
08:32:14 <myname> how did you find out it's humorous? because it is obvious pr because of the banner at the top telling so?
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08:54:21 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 7h 35m 20s ago: was it DWFO?
08:54:57 <Taneb> @tell oerjan It is not DWFO, it's one being organized by a couple of people in my uni called "STVN"
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08:59:46 <Taneb> @ask oerjan hth (shachaf told me to)
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09:25:32 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
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09:37:06 <hppavilion[1]> Your YouTube channel is "JeffersonAirplneVEVO", and the icon is just the default "J"
09:45:47 <int-e> Darn, no fireworks on Schlockmercenary today, just a huge teaser...
09:49:18 <Slereah> Haven't read that in like ten years
09:49:44 <Slereah> oerjan said 4d 9h 13m 51s ago: <Slereah> Is there a way to implement combinators using C# delegates without getting stack overflows <-- i suspect this is when you need a trampoline.
09:56:34 <shachaf> quoting people who use <-- is very confusing
09:56:43 <shachaf> though this is really a flaw in the <-- convention
10:01:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Why doesn't a second layer of <-- fix it?
10:03:53 <int-e> Hmm, I failed to come up a with a funny way of suggesting that hth stands for heads-tails-heads, a possible outcome from flipping three coins.
10:05:26 <shachaf> Fortunately the standards for wisdom/ are very low.
10:05:59 <int-e> "World Journal of Research and Review" ... who makes up the names of all those crap pay-for-publishing journals?
10:10:22 <int-e> `learn THT is short for tails-heads-tails, a possible outcome of flipping three coins. It's the opposite of HTH.
10:10:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'tht': THT is short for tails-heads-tails, a possible outcome of flipping three coins. It's the opposite of HTH.
10:11:11 <shachaf> What was that puzzle about what combination of three coin flips is more likely to come up first?
10:12:34 <int-e> something about HHH and TTT having a tendency to clump together
10:14:23 <int-e> So I'd expect to wait the longest for those two, followed by HTH and THT, followed by the other four that can't overlap with themselves. let me check the math...
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10:28:31 <int-e> And if I did that correctly, the expected values are 14 for HHH and TTT, 10 for HTH and THT, and 8 for the others.
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10:30:23 <FireFly> expected number of flips before they occur?
10:30:34 <int-e> for the first time, yes.
10:31:06 <int-e> it was a manual computation though, so feel free to verify the numbers yourself
10:36:08 <int-e> [from #haskell] "<Cooler> well don't you want IO to somehow capture the physical world?" ... in a cage, perhaps?
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11:02:02 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is clonecest (especially including gender-inverted clonecest) considered creepy? )
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11:52:13 <fizzie> Maybe you should stop doing it, if it causes earthquakes.
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12:07:17 <int-e> ouch I hope none of the punsters on here see this: http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/?comic=65
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12:37:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vitsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49706&oldid=47284 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (+280) Added infobox
12:42:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:VTCAKAVSMoACE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49707 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (+295) Creation
13:03:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TRUE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49708&oldid=37355 * LegionMammal978 * (+27)
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15:57:59 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -r abelian .
15:58:14 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -ri abelian .
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19:38:31 <zzo38> int-e: Then why do you write it on here?
19:43:52 <int-e> I do it for the irony
20:11:12 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv.
20:12:36 <int-e> I may need help for that second part
20:16:44 <int-e> or perhaps I could claim that I succeeded billions of years ago
20:22:32 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/KSP/P_20160911_151408.jpg <- this is the shit
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20:57:23 <izalove> how do i set the license on github so that the api knows about it?
20:59:44 <izalove> ok there should be a license field in the reply
21:01:12 <izalove> it's in https://api.github.com/repos/username/reponame/license
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22:31:01 <zzo38> Do you have a scanned or retyped copy of the instructions on the envelope of a IBM flowcharting template?
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22:43:56 <_46bit> It would be fun to make an IRC channel where a bot with multiple nicks performans plays.
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00:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> I think the society in My Little Pony have some rather advanced math
00:11:25 <hppavilion[1]> In the second movie, they mention the Pythagorean theorem (they actually SAY the definition- "And the distance between two points is just the square root of the sum of the squares of the difference the offsets of 3-dimensional points" or somesuch)
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00:13:20 <wob_jonas> hpp: it's just square roots, and square roots have been mentioned already in S3 E1. that's not advanced math. even the ancients knew the pythagorean theorem.
00:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> They mentioned a person named "Haycartes" (in the context of "Haycartes' Method", which is probably philosophical rather than mathematical but they still have the quy)
00:13:39 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, but it's fairly impressive for ponies
00:13:52 <hppavilion[1]> And they just mentioned pre-calculus (thus implying they have proper calculus)
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00:14:16 <wob_jonas> but they have a snout, of course they know about sinuses
00:17:24 <hppavilion[1]> They also had the equations for General Relativity on the chalkboard at one point, which implies they have that (I mean, it's probably just that the animators needed something nopony would understand so no one would get upset, but still)
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00:33:58 <lambdabot> Taneb said 15h 39m 1s ago: It is not DWFO, it's one being organized by a couple of people in my uni called "STVN"
00:33:58 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 15h 34m 11s ago: hth (shachaf told me to)
00:34:18 <oerjan> @tell Taneb it's really quite simple...
00:35:52 <shachaf> @tell Taneb oerjan says it's really quite simple hth
00:37:50 <wob_jonas> wait, when did you buy a Lambdabot Gold account?
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00:44:20 <shachaf> copumpkin: This Nix thing is a mess. :-(
00:44:30 <shachaf> Why is it trying to install binutils and bash and all these things?
00:45:18 <shachaf> Why didn't it want them before?
00:45:54 <oerjan> @ask Taneb does that mean it's star trek
00:48:42 <wob_jonas> I hate how there's always greasy cooking smell coming in the windows here. I blame the neighbour on the ground floor.
00:52:11 <oerjan> i've heard hungarian cooking is very greasy
00:53:20 <wob_jonas> I prefer it less greasy than average, but that's irrelevant. Nobody likes when they get cooking smell all the time.
00:54:27 <oerjan> pretty sure if anyone tried that in this building they'd set off the fire alarm
00:56:07 <oerjan> (greasy cooking without proper ventilation, that is)
00:56:59 <wob_jonas> He's got proper ventillation, he's ventillating all the smell outside the building. I bet his apartment is all nice and non-smelly. It's coming in through the window in here.
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01:13:21 <oerjan> @tell Slereah <Slereah> what is a trampoline* <-- it is a way to emulate deep recursive calls without a stack, by having each step return directly to a loop at the top, which calls the next step hth
01:14:50 <oerjan> @tell Slereah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing)#High-level_programming
01:15:48 <oerjan> <shachaf> quoting people who use <-- is very confusing <-- i don't see why hth
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01:26:12 <FireFly> I like stacking left-arrows for stacked replies
01:26:22 <FireFly> makes for a decent one-message quote tower on IRC
01:26:33 <wob_jonas> I usually use double right arrows instead, like this => =>
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01:37:30 <wob_jonas> Maybe we should use other arrows, like ~> or <-|
01:47:29 <hppavilion[1]> If I need to calculate where a line from 0 to a complex number z = a+bi intersects the unit circle a^2+(b*-i)^2 = 1, what equation would I use?
01:48:22 <hppavilion[1]> (I suppose maybe I'm just supposed to divide by the absolute value? That works for calculating sgn(x) (barring x=0), which this is a generalization of)
01:50:01 <oerjan> note that with a full line, there are two intersections.
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01:52:20 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> ouch I hope none of the punsters on here see this: http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/?comic=65 <-- too late, i read that comic hth
01:53:00 * oerjan hopes int-e won't misinterpret that due to filthy english grammar. or maybe that would be appropriate.
01:55:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vitsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49709&oldid=49706 * Oerjan * (-22) enough of this
01:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49710&oldid=49705 * Oerjan * (-22) nipping this in the bud
01:58:11 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, it needs to be based on the relationship between a and b & (a+b)!
01:59:58 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: factorial is generally extended to the complexes with the gamma function. it's probably unlikely to send gaussians to themselves.
02:00:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but I was going for something that doesn't require calculus to understand
02:01:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, the gamma function is stupid. Pi function is much better)
02:01:20 <oerjan> well i'm guessing you're unlikely to find something logical, but i dunno.
02:02:23 <oerjan> i'm not sure if there's a rule for (a + i)!
02:02:36 <oerjan> which is what you'd need to make sense of this.
02:04:39 <wob_jonas> oerjan: but you know where to look for such a rule, right? http://dlmf.nist.gov/5.5 . and since it's not there, you can be sure there's no easy rule.
02:07:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there wasn't any rule for calculating (a+b)! either hth
02:08:30 <oerjan> otherwise you'd really just need i!
02:09:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's the rule for exp hth
02:10:04 <wob_jonas> isn't there a pole or something there?
02:11:49 <hppavilion[1]> (a+b)! = (a+b)*((a+b-1)!) = (a+b)*((a+b-1)*((a+b-2)!))
02:11:51 <wob_jonas> the poles are at ik-1 for every integer k
02:14:13 <hppavilion[1]> 3! = 6; 2! = 2; (3+2)! = 5! = 120; 120 = 12*10 = 10*6*2 = 6*5*2*2
02:17:18 <oerjan> wob_jonas: um the poles are at -k for natural k hth
02:17:41 <wob_jonas> I was holding this thing sideways then
02:17:50 <hppavilion[1]> 3*5*2*2*2... a*(a+b)*(a*b) where a > b it seems; if a < b it's 2*(2+3)*(2*3) = 2*5*6 = 60 = 120/2 I guess?
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02:18:49 <hppavilion[1]> 2! = 2; (2+2)! = 4! = 24. 2*(2+2)*(2*2) = 2*4*4 = 32, so that pattern doesn't hold.
02:19:19 <hppavilion[1]> (s/a > b/a >= b/ or it doesn't work for any even numbers)
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02:20:02 <oerjan> good luck outpatterning euler and gauss hth
02:21:13 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it's probably impossible or really really weird, really, as (1) (k+0)! has to equal k!, so unless (a+b)! really just is a!b! (which I have a feeling I'll disprove with the first example) that doesn't work
02:22:18 <hppavilion[1]> and (2) there are a LOT of different ways to write k as a sum
02:23:12 <hppavilion[1]> Just to test if (a+b)! = a!b!, (2+3)! = 5! = 120; 2! = 2, 3! = 6, 6*2 /= 120
02:26:05 <hppavilion[1]> (I keep seeing patterns, but I'm not sure where they're coming from; 720=144/2*10)
02:26:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: f(a+b) = f(a)f(b) on the reals holds _only_ for exponentials hth
02:27:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: n! is kind of a not-quite-but-frustratingly-close-to exponential, isn't it?
02:27:12 <oerjan> (well, assuming an even slightly nice function - there are axiom of choice counterexamples)
02:29:56 <oerjan> hm s/reals/rationals/ and its completely true.
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02:32:17 <hppavilion[1]> It's some algebration of the definition given above that everyone has memorized
02:33:31 <shachaf> ugh: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsG6MSpWAAAdTob.jpg
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03:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, should n! just be considered to equal Gam(n-1) at this point? The same way we didn't need a new sign for + when we went from integers to reals?)
03:28:05 <hppavilion[1]> And presumably, there's some equivalent to the gamma function (Maybe we should just call it L(x) where L is an approximate upside-down gamma?) for derangement- L(x) = (n-1)(Γ(n-1)+Γ(n-2))
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03:42:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: s/Γ/L/g
03:45:29 <HackEgo> Inorically, inory is when you say something is irony that really isn't. Someone who does this is an inorite.
03:46:20 <HackEgo> oerjan hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1]
03:47:03 <oerjan> the functions with the property f(n) = (n-1) (f(n-1) + f(n-2)) are obviously exactly the linear combinations of n! and !n
03:47:54 <oerjan> which makes it strange if only one of them had a complex extension. but the wikipedia page doesn't list one.
03:49:57 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derangement
03:52:12 <hppavilion[1]> Not really a fan of !n notation because it's liable to be confused with ~n
03:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Why are you using 2's complement for anything but computers?"
03:53:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: 2-adic numbers hth
03:54:00 <quintopia> we can use 10's-complement for everything else
03:54:17 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: ~n and !n are totally different HTH
03:54:20 <oerjan> quintopia: 10's-complement doesn't give a field, you philistine
03:54:41 <pikhq> quintopia: Um, the base 10 analogue for 2s complement is 9s complement.
03:55:07 <oerjan> pikhq: oh! then i guess 10's complement _does_ give a field. smashing!
03:55:33 <wob_jonas> how do I filter the duplicates out?
03:55:56 <oerjan> pikhq: um wouldn't 9's complement correspond to 1's complement?
03:56:11 <oerjan> wob_jonas: which duplicates?
03:56:12 <pikhq> Maybe my memory's messed up.
03:56:37 <oerjan> pikhq: i mean, purely from the naming. it wouldn't be the first time mathematical naming is messed up.
03:57:05 <oerjan> (and of course, this makes ternary impossible to speak of)
03:58:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: problem is, with binary you speak of both 1's and 2's complement, which means if you try to extend it to all bases you get overlapping meanings...
03:59:57 <hppavilion[1]> So the 1's complement in base 3 is different from the 1's complement in base 2?
04:00:00 <pikhq> Erm, I'm wrong. 9's and 1's are analogous, 10's and 2's are analogous.
04:00:19 <quintopia> oerjan: i think 10's complement as I meant it is the same as 10-adic numbers? I know that ...99999 is -1, for instance
04:01:00 <pikhq> The 1's complement base 3 would be, what, the 3's complement minus 2?
04:01:19 <oerjan> quintopia: yeah i understood what you _meant_
04:01:37 <quintopia> oerjan: and yes it doesn't give a field, because rational numbers aren't a field either
04:01:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: 3's complement would be _either_ for base 3 or base 4, with different meanings
04:02:01 <pikhq> 3's complement base 3 is 3^n - y where y is the number and n is the number of digits.
04:02:06 <hppavilion[1]> Like, how do you invert the trits of a 3-digit number?
04:02:22 <oerjan> quintopia: um rational numbers are a field hth
04:02:38 <pikhq> (because the radix complement in any base is b^n - y where b is the base, n the number of digits, and y is the number, apparently)
04:04:59 <quintopia> oerjan: erm, sorry. not the rationals. rather, the subset of rationals representable using at most k digits after the point in base b.
04:05:36 <oerjan> quintopia: the way you make p-adics a field are by allowing finite number of digits after the point, and infinite before
04:05:47 <oerjan> this does not work for non-prime p.
04:06:50 <hppavilion[1]> (unary: mits, marks; binary: bits; ternary: trits; quaternary: tits (tetra- instead of quat-; not qits to avoid confusion with qubits); quinary: pits (again, can't use q, so swapped roots); senary: snits; octal: oits (pronounced "wits"); decimal: dits/digits; dozenal: zigits (so as not to use "zits"); etc.)
04:07:44 <pikhq> Base 256: octets HTH
04:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Is the 16's complement of higits/hits (hexadecimal) numbers the same as the 2's complement of the binary equivalent?
04:11:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ah, wolfram.com has a formula using the incomplete gamma function http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Subfactorial.html
04:13:58 <pikhq> I dunno for sure, but it intuitively seems like it should be.
04:15:49 <pikhq> Hrm. The 16's complement of n is 16^n-digits_16(n), while the 2's complement of n is 2^n-digits_2(n). 16=2^4, digits_16(n)=floor(digits_2(n)/4)...
04:18:43 <pikhq> Ah, no wonder I'm confused here, I wrote things wrong.
04:19:06 <pikhq> 16^digits_16(n)-n, 2^digits_2(n)-n. Those are the expressions I should be looking at.
04:20:47 <pikhq> digits_2(n) = 4 * digits_16(n). So, 2^digits_2(n) = 2^(4*digits_16(n)) = 16^digits_16(n).
04:21:23 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Yes, the 16's complement of a hexadecimal number is the same as the 2's complement of the same number in binary.
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04:23:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: apparently the incomplete gamma function is harder to extend to complex numbers than the usual one, it can become multivalued.
04:23:37 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incomplete_gamma_function
04:24:46 <oerjan> in the case of subfactorial, because of a factor (-1)^s
04:25:16 <shachaf> Where can I find a definition of the differential forms thing you were talking about the other day?
04:26:29 <oerjan> doesn't wikipedia have this stuff
04:27:39 <oerjan> it's not like i've looked.
04:28:25 <oerjan> although i vaguely recall once having had this explained in university, i have no idea if there even was a book involved.
04:28:39 <shachaf> Well, I want this vector space that you were talking about.
04:28:45 <shachaf> Oh, maybe "exterior algebra".
04:29:35 <oerjan> hm that does look promising
04:31:00 <shachaf> Is this "unordered set of basis elements" basis used anywhere?
04:31:22 <shachaf> (Or is it a non-empty unordered set?)
04:32:48 <oerjan> shachaf: it'd be empty for the 0 components case i guess.
04:33:12 <oerjan> for n components, you need sets with n elements
04:36:17 <oerjan> apparently the correct term is "n-vector"
04:38:16 <HackEgo> The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
04:39:12 <oerjan> `slwd cis//s/web c/webc/
04:39:19 <oerjan> `slwd ci//s/web c/webc/
04:39:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/ci//The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with webcomics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
04:39:44 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
04:39:46 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 40 Aug 2 03:16 wisdom/password
04:39:56 <HackEgo> The password of the month is Strindberg
04:41:44 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
04:41:46 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
04:47:47 <Cale> shachaf: What?
04:48:06 <shachaf> Well, you missed the conversation the other day.
04:48:22 <shachaf> I think oerjan was talking about the definition of multivectors?
04:48:34 <izalove> oerjan: how does `learn know to update the password in that case?
04:48:55 <oerjan> izalove: it ignores articles
04:49:03 <shachaf> Or some thing that has some complicated ordered basis or something.
04:49:34 <oerjan> shachaf: the "Duality" section in that wikipedia article seems closest to what i said
04:50:10 <oerjan> (about universal property. the "Universal property" section is a different view.)
04:51:40 <oerjan> shachaf: oh and the basis is also shown in another section. (no mention of unordered sets though)
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04:57:58 <shachaf> `card-by-name gilt-leaf seer
04:57:59 <HackEgo> Gilt-Leaf Seer \ 2G \ Creature -- Elf Shaman \ 2/2 \ {G}, {T}: Look at the top two cards of your library, then put them back in any order. \ LRW-C
04:58:15 <izalove> how much would you pay for it?
04:59:28 <izalove> ah i see, according to this site it's worth up to a whopping $0.80 http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/search_result.asp?Set_Name=Lorwyn
05:00:15 <izalove> because i don't play this game
05:00:36 <zzo38> I rarely play Magic: the Gathering but I do know all of the rules
05:00:42 <shachaf> You can build your starter deck around it.
05:00:43 <izalove> the card is in italian and i found it in a book
05:00:53 <shachaf> Do you want deck-building tips?
05:01:04 <izalove> they could come in handy someday
05:01:05 <shachaf> I recommend including at least one basic land.
05:01:20 <zzo38> Land is one of the types.
05:01:44 <shachaf> There are very few decks that don't use land.
05:01:45 <zzo38> How to built deck can differ based on whether it is standard or vintage or draft or whatever, too.
05:02:03 <izalove> how much is it gonna cost me?
05:02:06 <shachaf> Sometimes non-English cards are worth more than English cards.
05:02:30 <shachaf> But that particular card is probably not going to be very valuable no matter what.
05:02:40 <zzo38> Basic lands I think you can get not costing as much as other cards, because they are very common and you can get in all sets.
05:03:03 <pikhq> Yes, only unique variants of basic lands end up being costly.
05:03:05 <shachaf> I'll give you a basic land card for free.
05:03:16 <izalove> i also found this black lotus thingy, is it worth anything?
05:03:25 <pikhq> (but those are in no way superior)
05:03:29 <shachaf> Blacker Lotus is worth more.
05:03:29 <zzo38> Black Lotus is worth a lot; it is on the reserved list meaning they can't reprint it.
05:03:41 <pikhq> izalove: Either you're fucking with me, or you're not aware that that is a really expensive card.
05:03:42 <zzo38> However, it is restricted in Vintage and banned in all other formats.
05:04:17 <zzo38> Therefore, unless you play Vintage or like to collect it (whether to keep or to resell), it might not be worth as much to you.
05:04:26 <pikhq> What's the going price for a Black Lotus these days, 30k?
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05:04:48 <izalove> 7.5k http://www.ebay.it/itm/like/262597320477?lpid=96&chn=ps
05:04:58 <izalove> why does ebay.com redirect to .it
05:05:27 <pikhq> Ah, 30k is probably going price for a mint Alpha Black Lotus, not a Black Lotus in general.
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05:08:11 <shachaf> pikhq: You should start an investment management company that provides Magic: The Gathering ETFs.
05:08:53 <shachaf> I might buy some shares in your 3x Bull Power Nine ETF
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05:09:43 <oerjan> `learn MTG is short for Money Tapping Game.
05:09:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'mtg': MTG is short for Money Tapping Game.
05:10:27 <shachaf> oerjan: Is that supposed to be a pun on "tapping", a frequent action that can be applied to objects on the battlefield in Magic: The Gathering?
05:10:39 <shachaf> (Can you ever tap or untap something that isn't on the battlefield?)
05:10:55 <zzo38> shachaf: No. Only permanents can be tapped/untapped.
05:11:24 <zzo38> (Any object on the battlefield is a permanent.)
05:11:31 <shachaf> I forgot the word "permanent".
05:11:38 <oerjan> shachaf: not really, i'd have used a better word if i could think of one.
05:12:03 <shachaf> I wish there was a Magic: The Gathering Online eXchange
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05:12:22 <HackEgo> aloril: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
05:12:23 <zzo38> Also, only permanents can be destroyed, sacrificed, attached to other objects/players, have status, etc
05:12:52 <shachaf> But a permanent can be phased out.
05:13:17 <zzo38> Yes; only permanents can be phased out (and most effects ignore them while phased out).
05:13:39 <pikhq> Thankfully nothing can go in the phased out zone anymore.
05:13:56 <shachaf> There was a phased out zone?
05:14:08 <zzo38> There used to be. Not any more.
05:14:15 <pikhq> Phasing has had many, *many* hacks to make it work in the past.
05:14:17 <shachaf> I guess it was just a phase.
05:14:20 <pikhq> One of those hacks was a zone.
05:14:34 <zzo38> (A custom card I made up some time ago got a different function due to them changing this rule actually.)
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05:15:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> I wish there was a Magic: The Gathering Online eXchange <-- all it takes is one big bitcoin investment hth
05:15:45 <zzo38> If not playing in an official tournament, you may also use proxies, by agreement of players involved; and custom cards, by agreement of players involved. So purchasing the cards is not always necessary. If playing Limited format tournament, you need not bring your own cards (it won't help anyways); you can purchase cards as part of the entry fee.
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05:17:53 <zzo38> I always keep track of rule changes to Magic: the Gathering, far more often than I play, actually.
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05:40:19 <oerjan> very sound logic in today's girl genius.
06:19:46 <izalove> i bought a pair of headphones that are so unconfortable they're killing my ears
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06:37:28 * oerjan sets fire to izalove's headphones
06:56:40 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/KSP/MurcielagoAtMun.PNG
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07:57:25 <lambdabot> shachaf said 7h 21m 32s ago: oerjan says it's really quite simple hth
07:57:25 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 7h 11m 31s ago: does that mean it's star trek
07:57:47 <Taneb> oerjan, in this case, ST stands for Student Tele
08:00:10 <oerjan> @tell Taneb and yes, it's quite simple.
08:00:35 <Taneb> (the VN then stands for vision Network)
08:00:52 <Taneb> I'll link you all the episodes as they go online
08:01:22 <oerjan> THREATS WILL GET YOU NOWHERE
08:05:49 <quintopia> `unidecode Ć̨̽͑ͨ̏ͬ̈́̈͋͆͛͒ͩͥ̆̈́̑͗̑͢͏̡̟̳̤̝͈̼̗̦̝̯̤̦̝̘̩̣͡ͅỏ͂̈́͊́ͬͩ҉͉̥͖̬͙̹̻̫̼̬́͜͝ͅͅǘ̢ͧͭͧ̽̽̏̂̔ͤ̃̇̿҉̡̼̬͖̞͖͈̙͓̙̱̩̹ͅľ̸̨͚̖͇͈͔̘̟̺ͮ̀̓͐̽̾̂ͣͣͧ́̽̀̈́̕͜͜ḋͯ̾̀ͨ̆ͩͯ̾ͮ̂҉̷̟̥̻̠̞̮̺̫̖͍̪̼̳̗̘͈̠̻̣ ̷̻̹̰̖͇̬̺̗͙̩̙͔̻̻̘̟̻͎͙ͦ͊̄ͣ̇ͮ̾ͯ̾̓͂͂ͨ̍͑̈͒͠
08:05:50 <HackEgo> [U+0106 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C WITH ACUTE] [U+033D COMBINING X ABOVE] [U+0351 COMBINING LEFT HALF RING ABOVE] [U+0368 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+030F COMBINING DOUBLE GRAVE ACCENT] [U+036C COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0344 COMBINING GREEK DIALYTIKA TONOS] [U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS] [U+034B COMBINING HOMOTHETIC ABOVE] [U+0346 COMB
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08:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> Albany was considering a law that'd make it a crime to walk away from Airport security (as in, leaving the airport without boarding your flight)
08:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> ...OK, I'm beginning to think Hillary might ACTUALLY have some health issues
08:47:42 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I don't see why she'd run for President if she did (unless she was in denial or figured it wouldn't kill her in the next 8 years)
08:48:11 <myname> becaus at least it's not trump?
08:48:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Hillary is /marginally/ better than Trump?
08:48:39 <hppavilion[1]> It boils down to shot in the leg vs. shot in the head to me
08:49:29 <hppavilion[1]> OTOH, the signs showed up during a 9/11 ceremony (she nearly collapsed when leaving, claiming she felt overheated. Trump is, of course, going to say something about how she was just bored and looking for an excuse to leave, because c'mon, it's Trump and that's exactly the kind of crazy thing he'd say), so it could've just been an emotional thing
08:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm pretty sure being emotional /doesn't/ cause your legs to give out usually; wouldn't it generally be the opposite?
08:50:30 <hppavilion[1]> No, the video doesn't look like that: https://twitter.com/zgazda66/status/774993814025011200/video/1
08:51:35 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], BBC is reporting she's been diagnosed with pneumonia
08:51:40 <myname> but tbh, outlook in germany is not that great either
08:52:29 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, I think the world is either going to end in the next 2 years or this is going to be a long boring period that you'll have to learn about in history where everything sucked
08:55:21 <hppavilion[1]> If I ever shoot a video the news starts asking to use, I'm going to have to make some absurd condition
08:56:01 <hppavilion[1]> Like, "Yes, but only if you say 'All glory to ba'al the soul-eater' on air"
09:29:48 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: if she drops out, then Tim Kaine (her VP) would be a much better president probably
09:30:32 <hppavilion[1]> If a nominee drops out, does their running mate become the nominee?
09:30:59 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: basically, the DNC would decide by a new vote of the delegates
09:31:36 <\oren\> she was seen giving hug today to little children
09:31:52 <\oren\> pneumonia is a huge cause of death for children under 6
09:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> As in, if it's contagious (is pneumonia contagious? I've always thought it was a symptom of various things, some of which are contagious) she might have passed it?
09:33:13 <\oren\> my point is pneumonia is really contagious
09:33:51 <\oren\> so, then you can narrow it down to causes that aren't contagious
09:34:07 <hppavilion[1]> Looking at the news, I feel like we're on an exponential curve towards a tipping point at which there is an anticlimactic resolution
09:34:42 <\oren\> whe supposedly was diagnosed on friday
09:37:18 <\oren\> anyway, one cause of pneumonia is stroke
09:38:44 <\oren\> another is parkinson's disease
09:38:44 <hppavilion[1]> I'm beginning to think there might be a serial killer on the loose in anchorage
09:39:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I think we're looking at this wrong; do lizards get pneumonia?
09:39:53 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, WTF, there was a double murder at Valley of the Moon‽
09:39:55 <\oren\> probably. lizards have lungs
09:44:51 <hppavilion[1]> Woooooooow, APD doesn't broadcast the police scanner anymore (and they encrypt the stream)
09:46:35 <shachaf> I'm relieved that you mean Anchorage and not Atherton.
09:47:02 <shachaf> http://www.mercurynews.com/2011/08/27/the-best-of-atherton-police-blotter/
10:18:12 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( If somebody comes out as gay on Wikipedia, does that constitute original research? )
10:29:58 <fizzie> The official "overheated" explanation suggests more robots than lizards.
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10:43:14 <izalove> dialogue between coworker that does webthings and coworker that does zfs:
10:43:22 <izalove> - why are we still using less in 2016?
10:43:31 <izalove> - less? the command line pager?
10:43:52 <izalove> - no, less is... do you know coffeescript? well, less is to css like coffeescript is to js
10:44:06 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Um, lizards are coldblooded and need to move in and out of sunlight to control body temperature. hth.
10:44:06 <izalove> - . . . <gazes into the void>
10:52:29 <hppavilion[1]> Darn, I want to read a dinosaur comics that is more historically accurate AND where t rex wears more :,(
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10:59:23 <\oren\> my theory is that trump is increasing his stamina using amphetamines, i.e. adderall
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12:10:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49711&oldid=49694 * Qwerp-Derp * (+102)
12:22:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49712&oldid=49697 * Qwerp-Derp * (+309)
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18:38:31 <izalove> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1527.pdf very interesting
18:38:40 <izalove> why is there no link bot in this chan?
18:39:51 <nortti> https://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/medical-researcher-discovers-integration-gets-75-citations/
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18:54:54 <wob_jonas> That means eight new expansion symbols per year. Four for ordinary expert level expansion sets, two for this "Masterpiece Series" they just announced (why don't they just print the expansion set's symbol in a different color for that), one for a casual supplementary product and one for a duel decks.
18:55:30 <wob_jonas> Though at least now they have the set code printed at the bottom, but still.
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18:58:03 <wob_jonas> Although at least these cards will probably be rare, so maybe there's only six expansion symbols per year I'll commonly see.
19:01:56 <idris-bot> (input):1:6: error: expected: "#",
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19:18:32 <zzo38> Do you like this? [:trigger [:upkeep :you]; :iif [:equal [:life :you], 1]; :do [:win :you]]
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19:55:43 <zzo38> Intervening if clause
19:56:20 <shachaf> zzo38: I like the general idea. I'm not sure about the specific syntax and semantics.
19:58:41 <zzo38> What might you suggest to change? The syntax is RDF syntax.
20:00:02 <shachaf> I'm not yet sure what it should look like.
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20:13:00 <zzo38> I think this format can help to implement effects of Magic: the Gathering cards in computer program, as well as to search the card database by effect (such as with Gremlin or SPARQL or whatever) instead of only by text.
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20:18:41 <shachaf> zzo38: What I want is a small core set of rules, and for most keywords and so on to be implemented in a "standard library".
20:19:01 <shachaf> Which just uses the same language that's used on cards.
20:19:52 <zzo38> I did too intend that keywords can be implemented in a standard library too, as well as various other rules can be implemented in a standard library
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21:15:34 <nortti> a title displayer, I guess
21:15:51 <shachaf> I don't think that's a good idea.
21:15:57 <fizzie> I wouldn't expect one of those do anything reasonable with a .pdf.
21:16:06 <shachaf> But you can put your bot in here and have it /msg you the titles of links.
21:16:30 <fizzie> I don't know, it seems like much to expect.
21:16:35 <wob_jonas> or make it dispay titles, but not for every link it sees, but only when he's addressed?
21:16:49 <wob_jonas> perlbot, head http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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21:17:52 <wob_jonas> I mean, answers when private messaged
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21:25:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnZb-ibenFA
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22:34:40 <izalove> - generate a bunch of primes
22:35:28 <izalove> - when you first allocate a new hash table, associate it the first prime in the list
22:35:55 <izalove> - when inserting, hash the key and multiply it by the table's current prime
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22:36:31 <izalove> if we get a collision, check the next k elements where k may be 1 for example
22:37:12 <izalove> - if all the next k elements are occupied, we choose the next prime and try to rehash all the keys
22:37:38 <izalove> - if we run out of primes, resize the hash table
22:39:40 <izalove> if we fix k, this guarantees O(1) worst case search time, O(n) worst case insertion time and O(1) avg insertion time, right?
22:40:53 <izalove> which would be great if you access the elements way more often than you insert them
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22:42:26 <wob_jonas> Wait, what did I miss. Who is izalove?
22:42:35 <olsner> (some version of) java used a simple formula like doing 3x+1 with a magic number starting point, iirc that generated a series of primes up to a billion
22:42:47 <wob_jonas> Have I seen you here before, possibly under a different nick?
22:43:35 <izalove> planning to keep it for a while at least
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22:44:39 <izalove> so is that a super bad idea?
22:44:52 <izalove> i haven't implemented it yet so i dunno how well it works
22:47:33 <myname> how do you "check forbthe next element"?
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22:48:22 <izalove> if (!strcmp(key, table[hash+1].key))
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22:50:19 <myname> i don't get the role of the primes unless you make hash functions that hash to primes
22:51:13 <myname> or at least make it unlikely to have "relevant" divisors
22:52:00 <izalove> instead let's use a set of different hash functions
22:52:50 <myname> you know cuckoo hashing?
22:53:30 <izalove> that's probably better eh?
22:55:01 <izalove> the primes thing was just to have an easy way to generate hash functions
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22:55:43 <izalove> i guess one can use a hash function that outputs 64 bits and do something like (hi32 * prime) ^ lo32
22:56:07 <izalove> does that look reasonable?
22:58:27 <zzo38> I cannot figure out how to make a addon for Node.js (and on #Node.js channel, they don't help either). I looked at the NAN package but I do not understand it.
22:59:46 <myname> that does spund esoteric enough
23:00:48 <zzo38> While FFI is too slow.
23:01:40 <zzo38> And some other stuff I have found fails to compile on this version of Node.js
23:01:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that sounds bad. I hope you'll find other people on the internet who understand node.js and can help you.
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23:10:03 <zzo38> I found a few different packages for accessing SQLite from JavaScript but none of them are very good.
23:14:13 <zzo38> None of them allow implement virtual table modules or VFS. I found sql.js which implements SQLite entirely in JavaScript (so there is no need for native addons), although it only works with in-memory databases (VFS support could avoid this limitation), and since it is implemented entirely in JavaScript it cannot use SQLite extensions.
23:15:09 <wob_jonas> so can you perhaps take one of the existing extensions, if they're of a good quality, and extend them?
23:22:08 <zzo38> What latter is scary?
23:23:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the part where they implement it in node.js
23:26:10 <zzo38> Why are addons so difficult?
23:27:40 <zzo38> I have seen someone wanted to add built-in FFI support to V8 and that would improve it a lot. But, they don't do that yet
23:29:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: can I ask why you're using node.js?
23:29:56 <zzo38> It is to execute a JavaScript program, so that I can write a JavaScript program with
23:40:04 <zzo38> I would expect that communicating through a pipe would be as slow as FFI, I think? Node.js doesn't even have a function to create a pipe.
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23:45:43 <zzo38> Do you know any C++ programming?
23:49:50 <zzo38> Maybe you would know how to do it then.
23:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Potentially-useful function: sign-preserving power
23:50:53 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, I think in some circumstances it can help.
23:51:13 <zzo38> (I have had use for such in some program I have written once)
23:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The most notable circumstance, I think, is root-mean-square
23:51:38 <hppavilion[1]> Because negative numbers don't really go well in the root-mean-square AFAICT (they become positive)
23:51:42 <zzo38> wob_jonas: How to do Node.js extension with NAN. I read the documentation but I don't understand so well
23:52:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't know anything about node.js
23:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> So replace the square root with the sign-preserving square root and instead of squaring numbers, sign-preserving square them
23:55:30 <tswett> At least some of the time, negative numbers are *supposed* to become positive when you root-mean-square them.
23:55:31 <tswett> Root-mean-square is usually about getting the "magnitude" of something... I think.
23:55:50 <tswett> One example is the way that we talk about AC voltage.
23:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I thought it was just a different version of average with some different benefits and downsides
23:56:10 <tswett> When people talk about "120 volts AC", that means AC with a RMS of 120 volts.
23:56:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Traditionally, is the distance between two complex numbers real or complex? E.g. do you just find the absolute value of the difference of their absolute values, or would it actually be complex itself?)
23:56:53 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Look at the documentation for NAN and see if you can understand that if you know any C++ programming.
23:56:57 <tswett> The distance between two complex numbers is the absolute value of their difference. So it's always real and nonnegative.
23:58:17 <zzo38> wob_jonas: https://github.com/nodejs/nan
00:00:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, I'm not going to try to understand that now
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00:11:36 <tswett> Sigh. There's this language I'm creating... I think I'm calling it Tokiber.
00:11:36 <tswett> This language is experimental and will probably never be implemented.
00:12:02 <tswett> It's kind of funny how it's turning out so far.
00:12:35 <tswett> Examples of things I have figured out how to define: monoids, groups, rings, categories, functors, natural transformations.
00:12:44 <tswett> Example of something I haven't figured out how to define: addition.
00:16:56 <oerjan> tunes isn't loading :(
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01:21:03 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Try defining subtraction; then you just do a-(0-b)
01:21:35 <tswett> That would be great, except that I've only defined the natural numbers, not the integers.
01:22:04 <tswett> It's like a deranged version of Haskell.
01:22:11 <hppavilion[1]> If all nuclear powers made a no-first-use policy, would nuclear weapons even be useful?
01:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> (How about "no-first-use, but only for countries that have the same policy or a total no-first-use policy?)
01:22:50 <tswett> Well, if everyone is obeying a no-first-use policy, then nobody can ever use nuclear weapons.
01:23:27 <wob_jonas> tswett: I have a definition of integer addition in Haskell at http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs , maybe try to derange that
01:24:46 <tswett> Yeah, it has 2-tuples and booleans.
01:24:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: nuclear weapons are useful to prevent others from changing their minds about using them hth
01:25:06 <tswett> The definition of booleans is a little weird.
01:25:37 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: OK, then an integer is (Nat, Bool). If the boolean is true, it's negative, if it's false, it's the same as the Nat
01:25:40 <tswett> theory BoolType { sort Bool; true : Bool; false : Bool; }
01:26:18 <tswett> Now, how do I define subtraction on integers without already having defined addition on natural numbers?
01:29:24 <wob_jonas> tswett: see the definitions I linked? it defines addition and subtraction independetly. though you can also define them together, if you want shorter definitions, like
01:30:47 <wob_jonas> in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=849296 where I define addition, subtraction, and comparison all together, although that only works for natural numbers
01:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> "General of the Armies" is apparently the highest available military rank (basically a 6-star general). George Washington was posthumously promoted; only one American has ever received it while alive
01:31:09 <wob_jonas> but that latter is cheating, it uses a lot of perl's builtins
01:31:29 <wob_jonas> so look at the haskell one, which defines the operations straight with pattern matching on algebraic types
01:32:31 <tswett> Note that I think the hard part here is defining the *language*.
01:33:03 <tswett> I'm not having trouble defining addition; I'm having trouble deciding which language features to add in order to allow myself to define addition.
01:34:08 <wob_jonas> then it's easier, I prefer languages that have arithmetic built-in, so why don't you add arithmetic as a language feature?
01:34:37 <tswett> Because I don't have to.
01:35:33 <tswett> All right. I think I've figured it out.
01:35:47 <tswett> I'm gonna post some stuff.
01:35:56 <tswett> Paste some stuff, rather.
01:36:01 <wob_jonas> but if you don't want any arithmetic built-ins, then I recommend my haskell code, because it shows how to define addition and subtraction and multiplication and division of integers represented in binary from the ground up
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01:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, legally, George Washington outranks everyone forever.
01:39:16 <wob_jonas> hpp: how can he outrank everyone forever? can't people just invent higher ranks later? like, if I take over the world and name myself dictator, then I give myself whatever titles and ranks I want.
01:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, but if a higher rank is created he gets promoted to it
01:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> (It may take them a while to remember to do that though)
01:40:41 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Well if you're a dictator, the US no longer exists so that law is void
01:41:10 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/192258 - addition and multiplication defined in my language.
01:41:28 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Also, outranks in the army. Dictator is political
01:41:53 <tswett> Yeah, dictators decide policy. That makes them politicians.
01:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: It just doesn't feel right to call them that though; they don't have to worry about "approval ratings" or "not being evil"
01:48:51 <tswett> Lemme look up the definition...
01:49:31 <tswett> "One engaged in politics, especially an elected or appointed government official." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/politician
01:49:49 <tswett> Google says: "a person who is professionally involved in politics, especially as a holder of or a candidate for an elected office."
01:50:07 <tswett> So the holder of an elected political office is definitely a politician.
01:50:21 <tswett> I think I'd say that you're still a politician even if the office isn't elected.
01:58:15 <wob_jonas> tswett: so does this language have deranged GADT so you can define types with higher-rank polymorphism and non-uniform recursive functions on them?
01:58:52 <wob_jonas> No, I mean, does it have deranged GADT so you can define types with deranged higher-rank polymorphism and deranged non-uniform recursive functions on them?
01:58:56 <tswett> So far I don't think I have any kind of polymorphism at all. I don't know what a non-uniform recursive function is.
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02:04:31 <tswett> Hmm. My next challenge will be defining lists.
02:05:06 <wob_jonas> tswett: I think you'll need polymorphism to define lists in general
02:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, why is the UK not called the United Queendom?
02:06:36 <tswett> wob_jonas: yup. Lists are kind of inherently a polymorphic thing.
02:06:51 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: they'd have to change their name every time the monarch changes genders.
02:07:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Their national anthem is "God Save the Queen"
02:07:51 <hppavilion[1]> If their monarch was a cross-dressing man, would it still be "God Save the [Drag] Queen"?
02:08:20 <tswett> Wikipedia says that the name of the national anthem *does* change every time the monarch changes genders.
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02:11:06 <wob_jonas> Also, they change the portrait of the queen on coins
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02:19:22 <oerjan> hm so do norwegians. not sure about the song thing (it's not our national anthem, but we have a king song with the same melody as the english one. in two generations we might get our first modern queen, too. i can see a slight scansion problem with changing the lyrics...)
02:19:22 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to personify countries and other government (and non-government) organizations, how would subdivisions and such work?
02:19:44 <hppavilion[1]> Would US states be younger siblings or children of the US? And what about the Confederacy?
02:20:24 <oerjan> (they use to play both songs when the king holds his new year speech)
02:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like the Confederacy should be a child of the US (and the US the child of the UK), but then the US states can't be that because a rebellion is distinctly different from a subsidiary government (duh)
02:22:28 <oerjan> (the scansion problem is that the norwegian equivalents of "him" and "her" don't have the same number of syllables.)
02:24:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "ham" vs "henne" is terrible?
02:25:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes. The syllables of common words with almost identical meaning that only vary by context must be equal
02:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> the confederacy and the union should be like in fight club obv.
02:27:00 <wob_jonas> oerjan: that doesn't sound like a big problem. I mean, the poets who write the text of these anthems and other songs can work that around and make lyrics for both version.
02:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> well your alternate personality is surely a family member
02:27:29 <oerjan> wob_jonas: the lyrics for the male version is already traditional, though.
02:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You mean like [SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO ARE TERRIBLE] how Brad Pitt is all in his head?
02:29:11 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: they'd work like Steven Universe.
02:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that works? But it doesn't feel right, because if the confederacy had succeeded it'd be a distinct country
02:29:39 <tswett> The United States is a single person that can split into 50 people (and a bunch of territories).
02:29:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: which reminds me that russian is also terrible: он vs. она
02:29:51 <tswett> And they can fuse back into one person.
02:30:02 <hppavilion[1]> Successor/splinter nations have to be children, I feel, but constituent states should be too...
02:30:06 <oerjan> and so is latin: is vs. ea
02:30:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Also, what if I need Texas to talk to the US as a whole?
02:31:07 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I guess I could just not be particularly clear as to how it works, but that doesn't seem as fun
02:32:27 <hppavilion[1]> (And there's also the problem of other things- what the hell are the Democratic Party and the Republican Party? I guess they could be siblings?)
02:32:34 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: go, went, gone
02:33:23 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose I could add some non-human stuff to it; both states AND rebellions would be be children, but rebellions are distinct in that they can just kind of separate
02:34:47 <oerjan> wob_jonas: solution? i dunno. they've got a generation or so to find out.
02:35:59 <wob_jonas> oerjan: wait by "traditional", you don't mean it's been used for so long that there's been many kings and queens since, right
02:36:42 <oerjan> wob_jonas: there hasn't been a queen regnant since medieval times
02:37:03 <oerjan> long before the song was composed.
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02:37:58 <oerjan> in fact, it's only with the current generation the laws were changed to make a queen regnant _legal_
02:38:09 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I don't really know how that works.
02:38:20 <oerjan> previously it was agnatic primogeniture
02:39:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you considered that the answer to "how does this work" is "it doesn't" hth
02:40:41 <wob_jonas> Yeah, I think Hungary has only had one queen too, queen Mária Terézia, and that was way back when people were traditionally very gender-biased, so she needed some special stuff done by her ancestors so that she can be queen.
02:42:31 <wob_jonas> Nope, I'm wrong, she wasn't the only queen.
02:43:05 <wob_jonas> There was another queen before her in the Anjou dynasty
02:43:34 <oerjan> the king had elder sisters who were simply left out of the line; the crown prince has an elder sister who is in the line but _after_ him and his descendants. only the next generation will have complete equality.
02:45:38 <oerjan> the only queen regnant in norwegian history was Margrete I, who was also queen of denmark and sweden.
02:47:46 <fizzie> Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless.
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02:52:08 <oerjan> apparently the mezzacotta people have decided to keep doing privately the puzzle competitions they used to do on behalf of the company http://www.mezzacotta.net/puzzle/
02:52:30 * oerjan has never tried them, just felt like passing on
02:54:46 <oerjan> dammit now tunes loads but not in the browser
02:56:31 <oerjan> hah it was probably my own demonstration of a lambdabot trick that triggered it.
03:00:45 <oerjan> well that and quintopia's massive `unidecode line right after
03:06:09 <hppavilion[1]> Nabjol (opposite of Lojban): All sentences are exactly the same ("Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn")
03:12:02 <oerjan> @tell izalove <izalove> why is there no link bot in this chan? <-- because i banned the last one hth
03:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> "You know who ELSE used laws to stop debates‽ HILTER!"
03:13:44 <HackEgo> [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+033C COMBINING SEAGULL BELOW]
03:13:55 <shachaf> oerjan: I didn't get it last time.
03:14:03 <oerjan> and you got it on only my third try!
03:14:19 <shachaf> my terminal gets messed up all the time
03:15:55 <oerjan> `learn HILTER is what happens when someone combines argumentum ad hitlerum, shouting, and muphry's law in one glorious clusterfuck.
03:15:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'hilter': HILTER is what happens when someone combines argumentum ad hitlerum, shouting, and muphry's law in one glorious clusterfuck.
03:26:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * XxXEliteXxx * New user account
03:28:12 <oerjan> hasn't managed to get snagged in the filter yet
03:31:03 <oerjan> hm looks like a vandal rather than a spammer so far
03:31:22 <quintopia> that thing i was unidecoding renders fine for me, but i couldn't even tell what the underlying letters were
03:33:36 <quintopia> okay...turns out trying to find the optimal tokenization for this coder is REALLY SLOW. even if it compresses like 20% better it won't be worth this ridiculous wait...
03:33:41 <shachaf> oerjan: you are fondish of that word
03:34:17 <quintopia> i am fondish of fondue. it's a fun dish.
03:35:50 <quintopia> (when i go hiking, i prefer a foon dish.)
03:36:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49713&oldid=49681 * XxXEliteXxx * (+200)
03:36:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49714&oldid=49631 * XxXEliteXxx * (-89) Removed unnecessary comment
03:39:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49715&oldid=49714 * XxXEliteXxx * (-62)
03:58:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49716&oldid=49715 * Oerjan * (+89) Undo revision 49714 by [[Special:Contributions/XxXEliteXxx|XxXEliteXxx]] ([[User talk:XxXEliteXxx|talk]]) (This comment is by the language inventor and therefore sacred HTH)
04:00:05 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm still not sure it's promising, but at least it's not a spammer.
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04:32:06 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Wait, would EU be the child or the parent of several countries?
04:32:52 <hppavilion[1]> (The merging of two countries- e.g. East and West Germany- is of course caused by them having a child and then that child getting batman'd
04:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> (Or maybe they'll just adorably merge. Not sure how much I want to real-world it)
04:34:15 <pikhq> De jure East and West Germany didn't merge, instead East Germany was entirely dissolved and its constituent territories joined West Germany.
04:48:02 <zzo38> quintopia: What coder is that?
05:11:39 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has Urza's Avenger and the variant Jodah's Avenger but I would want to make up this new variant: {0}: ~ gets -1/-1 and gains your choice of banding, flanking, skulk, or menace until end of turn.
05:19:31 <hppavilion[1]> Pearson Education only lets your password be a-zA-Z0-9@._-
05:20:10 <wob_jonas> a maximum length of 1024 bytes or something can be reasonable
05:20:37 <hppavilion[1]> And it encourages the ones humans can't remember but computers can guess
05:21:11 <pikhq> If you use a random string for that then at least you get a reasonable 193 bits of entropy.
05:21:13 <wob_jonas> who are these... oh, Pearson Education! yes, I've met the website of those idiots
05:22:20 <oerjan> 32 characters should be enough f
05:25:40 <zzo38> Your password should have a very long maximum length (at least 255, preferably much more), a minimum of perhaps four or five, and allow any sequence of bytes including control characters and invalid UTF-8 sequences and whatever else you want.
05:26:19 <hppavilion[1]> Oh well, at least I used a password I've never used before
05:27:09 <wob_jonas> except it shouldn't allow tXqW0J9TC . That's a bad password, especially since it's now in the logs.
05:27:48 <hppavilion[1]> I think these sites should have a minlength and NO other requirements; if you get hacked because someone guesses it, it's your fault for choosing a shitty password
05:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> (There's no way they could just know what is obvious to people who know you)
05:28:20 <wob_jonas> hpp: no no, I think it's completely fine to have SOME max length. I recommend 4096 bytes.
05:28:21 <zzo38> Of course you shouldn't select that password now it is in logs, but I think it shouldn't check anything except the length, and it is up to the user what password they want even if duplicating someone else's password by coincidence.
05:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Minmax = 4096 bytes; all bits in the byte are independent
05:28:34 <zzo38> A maximum length is needed, although it should be very high.
05:28:48 <zzo38> Preferably at least 4096 bytes.
05:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, the "NO other requirements" was practical, not technical
05:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> (For the average user, "your password can't be more than 4096 bytes" isn't a requirement; it's just assumed because who would ever have a password that long? It's not like there are programs that make absurd passwords for you
05:29:49 <zzo38> If the system cannot handle that, lower it to 255, but you should try to avoid needing to lower it that much I think
05:30:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes; you CAN lower it, but if you do you aren't using a very good system
05:30:18 <zzo38> Yes I agree, it isn't a very good system if you have to do
05:30:20 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: In fact, any sort of max length is kind of weird; you're hashing the password anyway
05:30:38 <hppavilion[1]> Or if you aren't, YOU ARE DOING THIS WRONG START HASHING THOSE PASSWORDS STAT
05:30:54 <zzo38> Yes, and what kind of hashing? Yes, hashing and salt should be used.
05:31:23 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Good hashing; arguably, any hash works, but a cryptographic hash is what you should use
05:31:25 <zzo38> No mandatory password hints.
05:31:49 <zzo38> Yes, no mandatory security questions either.
05:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> That defeats the purpose of a secure password because people can just check your biography
05:32:21 <hppavilion[1]> Security questions should be optional, and you should be able to add your own
05:32:22 <zzo38> Yes, it does, especially if your security question is that easy!
05:32:42 <zzo38> And yes I agree, if security questions are provided at all, it should be optional and you are allowed to write your own question.
05:33:14 <wob_jonas> What is your mother's maiden name? What is the name of your first pet? What was your favourite class in school?
05:33:16 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, and if it's a bad question it's your own fault
05:33:46 <zzo38> Yes you are right it is your own fault
05:33:57 <wob_jonas> Oh, and your bank card pin code should be the year and month of your child's birthdate.
05:35:03 <zzo38> Four digits maximum is a too short password.
05:35:09 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I wouldn't use bank card pins unless they let me make them (a) hex (b) 32 digits
05:35:25 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I don't think it's even a real password; the security is in "don't walk off with your card"
05:35:27 <zzo38> The password for your bank card and credit card and whatever should have a much larger maximum than just four digits.
05:35:43 <wob_jonas> hpp: how do you convince everyone with a POS terminal to allow that?
05:36:16 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Anyone who doesn't will be taken into the woods and shot
05:36:23 <zzo38> I think the current system is insecure even if they did make passwords longer actually.
05:36:39 <zzo38> I did propose my own system and protocol, and the customer is allowed to provide their own keypad.
05:36:51 <zzo38> This can also prevent the merchant from cheating by making it display the wrong price.
05:37:37 <zzo38> On the keypad for the credit card transaction
05:38:01 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You should also be able to set up a separate duress pin that works like the "enter your pin backwards" myth, but actually works
05:38:17 <zzo38> That is why customer should be allowed to use their own keypad with their own software.
05:38:55 <zzo38> And then, based on their own software and on the credit card company's service, other things might be possible such as passwords that automatically change every day if you want to.
05:39:26 <zzo38> (Or alphanumeric passwords, or keypads that move the digits around to make it difficult to watch, or whatever)
05:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You should also be able to configure your garage door opener to lock/unlock the garage and disable certain remotes at will
05:40:55 <zzo38> And then, the same protocol is used for the purchase by internet by credit cards; either by connecting your own keypad to the computer or by having a program on your computer tat emulates it.
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05:41:29 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. "Your remote will only open my garage after 8:00, so you don't use it for non-booty-call-related purposes")
05:41:31 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Possibly someone might figure out such things
05:42:17 <zzo38> Reprogramming the garage mechanism in that way does not seem to be way too difficult, although you may need to install your own computer hardware to control it with
05:42:52 <hppavilion[1]> I want to be able to put a Python program on the router and control how things work
05:43:08 <hppavilion[1]> ("This computer can use the internet, but all images get flipped vertically")
05:43:42 <zzo38> That might be too difficult since it has to figure out what is a picture; there are different formats, different protocols, and different kinds of encryption.
05:46:48 <zzo38> Just turn the monitor upsidedown; now the picture is upsidedown and it work regardless of the file format and protocols in use.
05:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: No, but I want it to work on unsuspecting victims
05:48:24 <zzo38> I too want router to be reprogrammable, but I described why that won't work anyways.
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05:50:07 <zzo38> What you can think of the Magic: the Gathering card I made up shown above?
05:51:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that {0} activation morphling? you didn't tell what it costs, the types and p/t
05:53:12 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: In fact, I think many of them are reprogrammable
05:57:58 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, Squid (http://www.squid-cache.org/) does something like this, it looks like
05:58:32 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Look at Urza's Avenger and Jodah's Avenger; I intended to be similar to that, although such details could differ from those possibly. Those ones cost six mana to cast and are 4/4
05:59:15 <HackEgo> Urza's Avenger \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Shapeshifter \ 4/4 \ {0}: Urza's Avenger gets -1/-1 and gains your choice of banding, flying, first strike, or trample until end of turn. (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being bl
05:59:22 <HackEgo> Jodah's Avenger \ 5U \ Creature -- Shapeshifter \ 4/4 \ {0}: Until end of turn, Jodah's Avenger gets -1/-1 and gains your choice of double strike, protection from red, vigilance, or shadow. (A creature with shadow can block or be blocked by only creatures with shadow.) \ PLC-U
06:07:35 <zzo38> Now do you know if you think of what I wrote?
06:09:41 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What would be the uses of fully-scriptable routers do you think?
06:11:10 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Program more versatile incoming and outgoing filters, logs, automatic dynamic DNS update, automatic time update, port knocking, etc.
06:12:00 <zzo38> Dynamic Wi-Fi passwords (if you have a wireless router), and perhaps even to alter which services are available depending which password is used.
06:13:14 <wob_jonas> from a router, I prefer low latency and high bandwidth of transferring data on the network over versatile filters
06:14:04 <zzo38> Yes, although sometimes having more filters can be more useful especially if written in C or whatever instead of Python.
06:14:50 <zzo38> Program can be recompiled if you want to alter the filters.
06:15:02 <wob_jonas> no, routers shouldn't mess with filters. they should just transfer my data in the right route
06:15:30 <zzo38> Sometimes the filter is needed in order to decide what route, though.
06:16:11 <wob_jonas> no way. finding the right route is done by magic, not filters.
06:16:59 <zzo38> Then allow it to be reprogrammed by magic and then recompiled if the setting needs changed, instead of by filters.
06:20:51 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Then you use the low-latency high-bandwidth password
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09:55:23 <myname> https://twitter.com/Verbalneurotik/status/756743574276956160 dafuq did i just watch
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11:23:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kenrube * New user account
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11:37:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49717&oldid=49713 * Kenrube * (+166) /* Introductions */
11:38:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49718&oldid=49118 * Kenrube * (-44)
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17:11:20 <zzo38> A new custom Magic: the Gathering card (cost, name, and type, currently unknown): Cast ~ only during your precombat main phase. ;; Creatures can't attack players. ;; Phasing
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18:26:21 <\oren\> does js even distiguish between when obj.member is not present versus present and set to null?
18:27:41 <zzo38> Also, if not present in the object or in its prototype chain, the value will be undefined, which is different from null.
18:28:39 <zzo38> Try: Object.keys({y:undefined,x:undefined,z:null})
18:29:14 <shachaf> But you can always "undefined = null"
18:30:09 <zzo38> Yes, since "undefined" is not a keyword
18:31:02 <zzo38> You can write void(0) instead
18:31:19 <zzo38> Or you can write (()=>{})()
18:31:29 <\oren\> the point is can you test whether obj has the member x?
18:31:43 <zzo38> Yes you can test that!
18:32:07 <\oren\> ok, so what I'm doing makes sense then.
18:32:27 <zzo38> You can use the "in" operator, and you can use Object.keys
18:32:46 <\oren\> I'm using a member being present as opposed to absent to signal the client ot do something
18:33:07 <\oren\> even if that member is null
18:33:33 <zzo38> Yes, although the default value of a nonexistent property is undefined instead of null.
18:38:02 <EvilFly> Lua is the one that doesn't distinguish between the two
18:38:05 <zzo38> (Although, the "in" operator checks in the entire prototype chain and not just the object itself. You can use Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor to check for the existence on only the object itself.)
18:38:23 <EvilFly> (setting a member to nil is how you "delete" the member; they're intetionally not distinguishable from inside the language as far as I know)
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19:54:17 <\oren\> man the usa is turning into a giant basket of deplorable frogs
19:54:44 <shachaf> FireFly: why are you evil twh
19:55:08 <FireFly> Well I felt evil for a while, but then it passed
19:55:30 <\oren\> shachaf: are you a deplorable frog yet?
19:55:45 <shachaf> Wouldn't an evil person also claim that it passed?
19:56:14 <\oren\> https://www.hillaryclinton.com/post/donald-trump-pepe-the-frog-and-white-supremacists-an-explainer/
19:56:47 <\oren\> hillary clinton's campaign now claims that pepe the frog is an official mascot of deplorable white supremacists
19:57:24 <APic> Why would any Person be evil?
19:58:11 <shachaf> FireFly is a firefly, I think.
19:59:11 * APic is mostly polymorphed into a grinning Cat.
19:59:21 <int-e> APic: I believe few people consider themselves to be evil.
19:59:27 <\oren\> Slereah: I can't beleive it's gotten to this point. us canadians should just invade, declare martial law, and feed americans tim hortons until they regain sanity
20:01:07 <\oren\> you know, like a UN intervention deal type thing
20:01:24 <\oren\> canadians are good at that
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20:02:08 <shachaf> But Canadians are all right next to the US border. Probably all wishing they could get in.
20:02:32 <\oren\> nah, we're preparing for the invasion
20:03:32 <\oren\> like as soon as the us governemnt fully collapses.
20:03:57 <\oren\> you're about, oh, frog percent collapsed right now
20:04:21 <APic> Many People cannot count, yes.
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20:23:47 <\oren\> that was a big netsplit
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20:23:48 <\oren\> ah, there you are, lambdabot!
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20:24:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11d 20h 38m 23s ago: yes, yes (in nynorsk), neither (en:egg = no:egg)
20:24:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11d 20h 38m 4s ago: in fact i vaguely recall english borrowed it from us hth
20:24:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11d 19h 56m 36s ago: there's a bug so you cannot `revert a new file creation properly hth
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20:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a use for se := summ(0, inf, λ k -> 1/subfact(k))?
20:53:40 <hppavilion[1]> (let's call it u (e is the 0th letter of euler; u is the 1th))
20:54:11 <hppavilion[1]> (Wait, subfact(1) = 0, so it's undefined unless we drop 1)
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20:58:19 <int-e> apparently we don't have an entry for "bug". http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/70f188fce734/wisdom/bugbear is the closest one.
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21:15:51 <izalove> i did shuf -n 10000000 -r /usr/share/dict/words > /tmp/src which takes my words file with ~100k words and produces a file with 10M words from it
21:16:25 <izalove> then i wrote a program that reads a million lines and inserts them in a hash table, then loops over the remaining lines and searches them in that table
21:16:46 <izalove> and it does insert and search twice and compares my hash table with gcc's std::unordered_map
21:16:54 <izalove> https://arin.ga/sQLCpu/raw this is the result
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21:25:01 <hppavilion[1]> (based on the assumption "ln" is short for "logarithm natural" ("natural logarithm" properly, probably translated from French where it would be french('logarithm')+' '+french('natural')), so "ld" is "logarithm deranged" or "deranged logarithm", because u is the deranged Euler constant)
21:26:18 <hppavilion[1]> fact(n) is the number of ways to arrange n objects, whereas subfact(n) is the number of ways to rearrange n objects (that already have a set order) such that no object is in the same place as in the starting order
21:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. if you want to have students grade each others' tests, but you obviously don't want anyone to grade their own because they can cheat)
21:28:56 <shachaf> > let subfact n = fromIntegral (round (product [1..n] / exp 1)) in map subfact [0..10]
21:28:58 <lambdabot> [0,0,1,2,9,44,265,1854,14833,133496,1334961]
21:29:21 <shachaf> > let subfact 0 = 1; subfact n = fromIntegral (round (product [1..n] / exp 1)) in map subfact [0..10]
21:29:24 <lambdabot> [1,0,1,2,9,44,265,1854,14833,133496,1334961]
21:29:52 <shachaf> @let fact n = product [1..n]; subfact 0 = 1; subfact n = fromIntegral (round (product [1..n] / exp 1)) in map subfact [0..10]
21:29:59 <shachaf> @let fact n = product [1..n]; subfact 0 = 1; subfact n = fromIntegral (round (product [1..n] / exp 1))
21:30:14 <shachaf> > sum [1/fact n | n <- [0..100]]
21:30:22 <shachaf> > sum [1/subfact n | n <- [0..100]]
21:30:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Since e is equal to the sum of 1/fact(n) for n = 0 -> inf, u ("deranged euler constant") is the same but with subfactorial
21:30:31 <shachaf> > sum [1/subfact n | n <- [0..10]]
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21:36:58 <shachaf> > sum [1/subfact n | n <- [0..20], n /= 1]
21:37:34 <shachaf> The problem is that I've started using my /query lambdabot window to keep a todo list.
21:37:41 <shachaf> So now I don't /msg lambdabot anymore.
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22:21:09 <fizzie> A while ago, there was someone using the emoticon :) which always used to freak me out. (If you filter out formatting codes, that may not make sense.)
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22:23:04 <shachaf> It's too subtle in this terminal.
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23:04:16 <izalove> turns out my hash table uses about 30x as much space as std::unordered_map
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01:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> ...why does the Vatican even HAVE an age of consent?
01:03:44 <hppavilion[1]> Shouldn't it be, like, "age of the oldest living person, plus 1 day"?
01:04:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: not all people living in the vatican are ordained priests hth
01:06:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: nope. "Women obtain Vatican City citizenship by marriage (as a baptized Catholic) to their husbands; however such citizenship "lasts only for the duration of their stay" in Vatican City."
01:06:51 <hppavilion[1]> Why have actual citizenship that you lose when you leave the country when you can just have traditional visas?
01:06:56 <oerjan> According to the Herald Sun in March 2011, there were "only 32 female citizens" residing in the "smallest state in the world".
01:07:31 <quintopia> p-adic numbers are more limited than what i was thinking for 10's complement
01:08:09 <quintopia> is it a field if i take a: Z->Z/10Z and represent real numbers as sum from -infty to infty of a(i)*10^i
01:08:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: people who lose vatican citizenship automatically gain italian by default (and treaty)
01:08:20 <hppavilion[1]> To define what a "Country" is, your criteria has to include Vatican City: The Least Country-Like Country That's Still A Country and EXCLUDE the anti-Vatican City, Hong Kong: The Most Country-Like Country That Isn't A Country
01:08:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49721&oldid=49717 * Kenrube * (-7)
01:08:46 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: There was a nice field near my old house
01:09:21 <oerjan> quintopia: the only p-adic fields are the ones from p a prime hth
01:09:39 <oerjan> otherwise, you can easily find a zero divisor
01:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> "in some countries in order to be legally defined as a new sex people must first undergo sterilization."
01:11:02 <oerjan> quintopia: also, p-adic numbers are not reals hth
01:11:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Doesn't being transgender defeat the possibility of having children? Like, even if you're a trans man (female anatomy) who is ALSO gay, you probably aren't going to be planning on having children the usual way)
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01:12:40 <oerjan> quintopia: the problem with defining multiplication when the number is infinite both ways is that the sum for each resulting digit also gets infinite.
01:13:12 <oerjan> when it's only finite leftwards, each digit only gets a finite sum of possibilities.
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01:14:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you considered asking these questions in a forum where people are actually interested in discussing them twh
01:18:35 <oerjan> quintopia: in particular, for any a,b where a is a 2-adic integer and b is a 5-adic integer, there is a unique 10-adic integer that is equal to a (mod 2^n) and equal to b (mod 5^n) for all n (using the chinese remainder theorem and taking limits)
01:20:10 <oerjan> and if you choose a1=0, b1/=0, a2/=0, b2=0, then the corresponding c1 and c2 become non-zero 10-adics with zero product.
01:20:29 <shachaf> oerjan: i thought the p in p-adic stood for "pooch" tdnh
01:20:31 <oerjan> (maybe i'm not telling you anything you don't know here)
01:21:13 <oerjan> . o O ( shachaf does not get to overuse the word "pooch" any longer )
01:21:58 <shachaf> oerjan: i think many people who are interested in discussing those questions would be too irritated by the phrasing and implications of the way they're put to answer anyway hth
01:23:28 <shachaf> you should get a twitter account and post your jokes there instead of here.
01:24:17 <oerjan> shachaf: that is possible.
01:27:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I did. It got locked because I looked like a bot.
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01:29:58 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Being trans is orthogonal to getting medical treatment for being trans. *Additionally*, what those countries require includes destruction of any frozen sperm or eggs.
01:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yes, but my point is that if you ARE trans, you probably aren't going to go using the equipment for cisgendery things
01:30:59 <hppavilion[1]> If you're a trans-man, you probably aren't going to go around using your uterus
01:31:03 <pikhq> Likely, but why should the state mandate it?
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01:31:40 <izabera> actually no because apache is alive
01:31:52 <hppavilion[1]> It probably makes clerical stuff easier (so you don't have to note that the mother is a man), but if your clerications are set up so you can't do that via compartmentalization, you're doing it wrong.
01:32:12 <izabera> but irc died, ssh is dead, cloudatcost's control panel is dead
01:32:57 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Additionally, it is *shockingly* difficult to get medical treatment for being trans in many different cases. And sterilization can be part of those medical treatments...
01:34:18 <pikhq> And again, we are talking about legally enforcing a potentially-unnecessary medical treatment just to have your gender identity recognized.
01:34:22 <pikhq> Which is pretty shitty.
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01:45:03 <oerjan> we'll be fine as long as it doesn't start shouting BRAINS
01:46:39 <_46bit> hppavilion[1]: I'd like to point out that when you say "Yes, but my point is that if you ARE trans, you probably aren't going to go using the equipment for cisgendery things" in reference to reproduction, it feels like you're forgetting non-straight relationships altogether
01:47:11 <_46bit> and that's all I'll say about that. it's too late and this is a wrong venue for this conversation.
01:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> _46bit: No, I covered that earlier; it's just that even if you're a trans man AND gay, you probably aren't going to want to carry a baby because that's pretty much 100% womanly
01:48:00 <_46bit> there was a time I created a Linux container with lxc and the hosts /dev devices all vanished
01:49:09 <hppavilion[1]> If people can be trans-gender, can I be trans-race?
01:49:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure I could get the SJWs to support it, but only if I wasn't white as-is
01:49:51 <_46bit> figures you had that agenda
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01:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, if trans people need to legally change their gender, I think that's already a sign of your society doing something wrong- the law incorporates gender into it. Unless it's just changing whether they say "Mr." or "Ms." on notices)
01:51:16 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: You'd think that, but there are trans men who have actually gone off hormones in order to carry a baby.
01:51:36 <pikhq> People are complicated.
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02:01:48 <Slereah> The worst complexity I've ever seen was Worst Sort
02:02:08 <Slereah> The number of factorials depend on the exact implementation
02:04:14 <_46bit> I got a couple of factorials in something the other week, then wondered why n=154000 took so long
02:12:54 <zzo38> Unless your name actually is "Mr." or "Ms." then they should omit that
02:13:23 <oerjan> Slereah: bah factorials are insignificant compared to the power of ackermann.
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02:14:14 <oerjan> zzo38: now i'm wondering if there are any languages where any of those are names.
02:14:31 <oerjan> well, probably without the period, anyway.
02:16:52 <oerjan> apparently Mr. is the artist name of a japanese guy
02:19:22 <quintopia> oerjan: i was onbviously not talking about p-adics
02:19:38 <quintopia> i dont know why you said so much about them
02:19:52 <oerjan> quintopia: because you didn't have the dignity to stop me hth
02:20:20 <oerjan> anyway, i think the infinite sum for one digit thing i mentioned is what makes it break down to have it twosided.
02:20:36 <quintopia> but abt the infinite sum thing: why is it a problem as long as the sums converge?
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02:21:20 <oerjan> how do make them converge? especially in the reals.
02:22:13 <oerjan> for general Z -> Z/10Z, there's no reason to expect them to.
02:22:21 <quintopia> why wouldnt they converge? as long as we assume that all finite numbers have an infinite string of 0s or 9s on the left...
02:23:29 <oerjan> ok but then you're basically just using a strange way of writing ordinary decimal.
02:24:05 <oerjan> which gives a field (the reals), but not a unique representation.
02:24:18 <oerjan> (strange for negatives, that is.)
02:25:43 <FreeFull> The infinite product 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*... converges in the 2-adics
02:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> "§ (lower case: ſ) is the 19.5þ letter of ðe Eŋgliʃ alphabet"
02:28:54 <quintopia> oerjan: yes a strange representation for ordinary decimal is exactly what i meant when the other day i said "10's complement"
02:29:09 <quintopia> one where addition works for subtraction
02:29:52 <quintopia> the fun bit is that ...999.999... is negative zero
02:30:48 <quintopia> (okay technically it's just an alternative representation for zero, but it's more fun to call it negative zero)
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02:31:32 <FireFly> I should probably learn about p-adics
02:32:00 <FreeFull> I don't think there is a distinct negative zero
02:34:08 <FreeFull> I like how the ackermann function grows faster than any primitive-recursive function
02:34:28 <FreeFull> And any stack of factorials is primitive-recursive
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02:53:41 <quintopia> did you know that 4^(4^4)cm is wider than the observable universe?
02:55:06 <quintopia> x^(x^x) goes 0, 1, 16, 7.6*10^12, wider than the observable universe
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03:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: 0^0 != 0 unless explicitly stated to be
03:19:58 <shachaf> quintopia: pft, TREE() grows much faster
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04:18:21 <FreeFull> 4^(4^4) is a 9 digit number then?
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04:22:45 <lambdabot> 1340780792994259709957402499820584612747936582059239337772356144372176403007...
04:22:55 <FreeFull> My calculation was clearly wrong =P
04:32:06 <\oren\> rebooted my computer now my blutoth mouse is working
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04:33:44 <\oren\> why is blutoth such an unreliable thing
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04:52:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the former.
04:53:22 <hppavilion[1]> But if you just make it normal numbers, (2±3)^2 feels like it should be 5^2 = 25 or (-1)^2 = 1, but if you try it the fun way you get those two AND 13
04:53:49 <oerjan> you don't get to expand ^2 like a macro when the content is multivalued.
04:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> Why? Is there a fixed reason, or is it just because everything is nicer?
04:54:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So you have to solve&separate the inside first, THEN macronize it on each separate result?
04:54:59 <shachaf> > let a +- b = [a+b,a-b] in (^2) <$> (x +- y)
04:55:04 <lambdabot> [(x + y) * (x + y),(x - y) * (x - y)]
04:55:24 <shachaf> > let a +- b = [a+b,a-b] in (*) <$> (x +- y) <*> (x +- y)
04:55:30 <lambdabot> [(x + y) * (x + y),(x + y) * (x - y),(x - y) * (x + y),(x - y) * (x - y)]
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04:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Argument of the day: If there's more than one ± (e.g. a±b±c) do you have to treat them all the same (so a+b+c OR a-b-c), or can they mix (So a+b+c, a+b-c, a-b+c, OR a-b-c)
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05:02:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: mixing is allowed.
05:03:11 <shachaf> oerjan: what about the thing where you use +- in one place and -+ in the other place
05:03:22 <shachaf> to indicate that the same choice is used respectively in both
05:03:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ok there's exceptions, darn
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05:04:11 <HackEgo> [U+2213 MINUS-OR-PLUS SIGN]
05:04:54 <oerjan> i think we're heading into "if you do this you get to explain your notation" territory.
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05:09:01 * oerjan suddenly envisions putting indices on the signs
05:09:32 <shachaf> oerjan: now write a monad for it hth
05:12:31 <hppavilion[1]> write a subscript after a ± or ∓ to link it to all others with that sign; all ±s with the same index are + and - at the same time, all ∓s with the same index are + and - at the same time and never the same as ±s with the same index
05:12:43 <HackEgo> [U+0436 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ZHE]
05:13:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: but of course. although at this point multiplying by {-1,1} valued variables s_i is probably more standard.
05:14:00 <shachaf> oerjan: Is there an operator set, like Sigma and Pi?
05:14:09 <shachaf> Which would give you the set of a bunch of things.
05:14:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, and what if we need "only 2 out of these 3 can be + at once; the other has to be -, but it doesn't matter which 2 are +"
05:14:32 <shachaf> I guess that's just an alternative way to write set comprehensions.
05:14:55 <oerjan> shachaf: just use a big union sign and braces.
05:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> ℝ^k is a k-dimensional space, because a set S to a power k means a k-tuple of items from S
05:15:26 <hppavilion[1]> (presumably, all sets work like this, where multiplication of sets is just a tuple of the values- nothing more than Cartesian product)
05:15:39 <shachaf> oerjan: i,i {}_{(i,j) \in {1,2,3} x {5,6,7}} { i+j }
05:17:03 <HackEgo> [U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R]
05:18:25 <shachaf> Please stop being annoying.
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05:18:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's putty, it doesn't support using more than one font.
05:19:26 <hppavilion[1]> @tell shachaf I'm sorry, though I'm not exactly sure what in particular I did. :(
05:19:49 <oerjan> i can paste it into my browser and it shows fine.
05:20:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: shachaf's irc client has even bigger problems with unicode than mine hth
05:21:18 <oerjan> also, i don't know generalization for k < 0.
05:22:01 <oerjan> i recommend not using those fancy chars as i've already pointed out i cannot read them easily.
05:22:54 <oerjan> but assuming you're asking about complexes, that seems as hard as negatives.
05:23:44 <oerjan> you can do infinite cardinals, obviously :)
05:24:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, I mean like 2.5. Is there any generalization that /somehow/ supports something that looks like a 2.5-tuple?
05:24:58 <oerjan> not that i know of. now if you were just asking about any set with that dimension, i'd point you to fractals.
05:25:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Preserving the generic properties that doing types like this has; (S^n, S^m) is pretty much equivalent to S^(n+m)
05:28:50 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: well, if you had a S = R^2.5, then the tuple (x,y) where x and y are in S would be a member of R^5
05:29:13 <oerjan> it's a little bit like those fractional bits in TURKEY BOMB, i suspect - they don't really exist individually.
05:30:46 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I suppose R^(-1) (aka "anti-R" and typically written Я (the Cyrillic backwards-R, of course)) would basically be a quotient type of the Unit Type and the Reals (Quo[Unit,Real])
05:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> But I still don't really know WTF a quotient type is
05:31:17 <oerjan> quotient types of singleton sets tend to still be singleton sets hth
05:32:44 <\oren\> so you need a set R^0.5 such that to specify a member of R, two members can be used.
05:32:45 <oerjan> now i'm reminded about those people who said they could define a reversible computation system where the types were a field. but they never explained how they avoided the obvious contradictions, so they probably didn't.
05:33:57 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh? Including where we're assuming the singleton is the (pardon my arithmetic) numerator?
05:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> (R^0.5, R^0.5) has to pretty much directly correspond with R
05:34:55 <hppavilion[1]> (I suppose I could make it... no, that won't work)
05:35:09 <oerjan> well there were units, i think 1 may have been just the computation that makes input and output equal
05:37:32 <hppavilion[1]> (I suppose (R^(-1), R) would have to be the unit type, and that doesn't seem right- if all else fails, you just always use the same value in the first place every time and the second place can be any real number, so the limit being 1 possibility seems impossible)
05:37:42 <oerjan> now come to think of it there may be an obvious way to cheat based on R being the same cardinality as R^2. it probably won't give something very nice.
05:38:24 <oerjan> and it'll still break for getting R^0 = R^a x R^(-a)
05:39:05 <hppavilion[1]> R^0 has to be the unit type (or empty tuple, or whatever. Are those all the same in whatever type theory we're using?)
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05:40:48 <oerjan> i dunno, i don't know all type theories.
05:40:55 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo_: I'm trying to figure out if -1-space is a reasonable thing
05:41:59 <oerjan> for some kinds of dimension measures, there is _one_ reasonable -1-space, the empty set.
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05:44:05 <oerjan> (e.g. the measures where you define the dimension to be n if a space can be split up with subspaces of dimension n-1)
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06:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I suppose negative time dimensions would be measured in hertz?
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06:04:50 <oerjan> well the idea certainly does.
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07:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> It basically indicates "Hey, the previous number is a proportion of a whole, not a count. Oh, and we multiplied it by 100 for no apparent reason at all"
07:25:43 <wob_jonas> no no, that symbol indicates the following number is a job number, not a pid, and also, if this appears as the command, then there's an implicit fg command before it
07:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I'm trying to remember if there's a way to express logarithms using exponentiation and division alone
07:27:41 <FreeFull> % is obviously the division remainder operator
07:27:45 <hppavilion[1]> I seemed to remember it being (1/b)**x, but then I realized that's stupid
07:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: And log*_b(x) is the iterated logarithm remainder operator
07:30:23 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: Let's just regard % to mean "divided by 100". The population of the US is 318.9%%%
07:30:57 <Cale> er, that was wrong
07:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Use antipercent (a mirrored percent sign) for that
07:31:19 <Cale> The population of the US %%% is 318.9
07:31:48 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Do you know of an easy way to logarithmicate?
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07:32:55 <hppavilion[1]> I also created the constant u (the Deranged Euler Constant) today
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07:33:06 <Cale> Well, log_b x = log_a x / log_a b
07:33:28 <Cale> So if you know the right constant to multiply by, you can do it roughly by counting digits
07:34:51 <Cale> Oh, simply in terms of what?
07:35:30 <\oren\> no % is the modulo operator, duh
07:36:04 <\oren\> i wish c++ had made % and ^ work the right way with floats
07:36:53 <Cale> I didn't say that :)
07:37:32 <Cale> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm#Arithmetic.E2.80.93geometric_mean_approximation -- this method might be good
07:37:39 <Cale> If you're implementing an algorithm
07:38:36 <hppavilion[1]> I was hoping to avoid it as a dependency, but oh well
07:39:06 <hppavilion[1]> ln(x) = log_e(x), lb(x) = log_2(x), lg(x) = log_10(x), ld(x) = log_u(x)
07:45:04 <hppavilion[1]> e is defined as (or at least can be calculated with) the sum of the reciprocals of all factorials from 0 to infinity
07:45:30 <myname> what does the b in lb stands for?
07:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> u is the same, but with subfactorials instead (and we just ignore subfact(1) because that causes divide-by-zeroes)
07:46:04 <Cale> @let agm x y = head [u | (u,v) <- iterate (\(u,v) -> ((u+v)/2, sqrt (u*v))) (x,y), abs (v - u) < 1e-10]
07:49:22 <myname> the german entry has lb also listed as ld for logarithmus dualis
07:49:33 <Cale> > pi / (2 * agm 1 (2^^(2-16) / exp 1)) - 16 * log 2
07:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ISO 80000 recommends base 2 is lb and base 10 is lg. If we're going to have an ld other than the Deranged Logarithm, ld should be base 10 and lg base 2
07:50:44 <Cale> I find it kind of weird that log bases are even a thing.
07:51:10 <wob_jonas> Cale: they aren't. base e, base 2, and base 10 are the only useful ones.
07:51:19 <Cale> We usually don't bother giving special names or indices to scalar multiples of a function.
07:51:56 <myname> ah, so it's weird for the bases to have special names, not the existence of the bases as such
07:52:10 <Cale> Well, even the bases are pretty weird
07:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I don't think base 10 is even very useful outside of the fact that we all count that way
07:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> (When not in computers, you can just drop the index entirely for roots for square roots)
07:52:31 <wob_jonas> hpp: it's useful for calculating in my hand because the numbers are in base 10
07:52:35 <myname> we do have the same for roots
07:52:36 <Cale> Like, whenever you would have written log_10 x, you could have just done away with the concept of log bases altogether and written log x / log 10
07:52:41 <Cale> which is really not so much worse
07:52:49 <wob_jonas> I know base 10 logarithms, not base e ones
07:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I forget, how does one do log 10 in one's head?
07:53:19 <myname> Cale: it does make the concept less understanding imho
07:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> Because defining log_b x as k s.t. b^k = x is understandable
07:54:01 <wob_jonas> hpp: you learn the exponential sequence 1, 1.25, 1.6, 2, 2.5, 3.15, 4, 5, 6.3, 7.9, 10 to compute approximate base 10 logarithms and exponentials, and you use them to compute approximate multiples of large numbers when you want to do approximate calculations
07:54:05 <myname> try explaining kids why you divide by the stuff you have as your basis
07:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> Defining it as however the hell base change works is impossible to understand
07:54:29 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: That works if you can define b^k appropriately, but how do you want to do that? :)
07:54:56 <Cale> Usually we define b^k as exp(k log b)
07:55:06 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: Tell them how exponents work, then tell them how it works if they're negative, then explain square roots, then general roots, then rational powers
07:55:26 <Cale> So what does 2^sqrt(2) mean?
07:55:58 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: If you want a meaningful representation, you just round it off as with all other irrational numbers
07:56:03 <wob_jonas> it's very useful when I only want approximate magnitudes
07:56:32 <wob_jonas> obviously if I want a more precise calculation, I use a computer
07:57:18 <Cale> Well, how do we know that rounding it off is okay at all?
07:57:37 <hppavilion[1]> The same way you find the circumference of a circle given its diameter; you don't find an infinite series that yields the answer when completed, you just say pi is 3.14159, multiply by that, and say "close enough" with a little footnote
07:57:50 <Cale> If we don't know how x^y is defined for irrational y in the first place, we can't justify any means of approximating it
07:59:50 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: We hold off the actual proper definition for irrational y until they've taken some calculus
08:00:20 <Cale> Oh, I highly recommend not talking about logarithms at all until one has had some calculus.
08:01:02 <Cale> Of course, the highschools don't do that because they're big fans of confusing people and making them think they're "bad at math" by introducing things with circular definitions :)
08:01:31 <Cale> and leaving out all the content of mathematics, which is the proofs
08:01:43 <wob_jonas> hpp: no, we don't. we give one of the two definitions for exponentiating reals _before_ calculus,
08:02:01 <Cale> You need some sort of limit
08:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: I'm not even in Calculus yet and I get logarithms fairly well. I couldn't tell you the exact rule for irrational powers, but otherwise I get it.
08:02:23 <Cale> If you really want to scrape by, you can use the least upper bound property directly.
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08:02:39 <wob_jonas> the definition where you extend exponentiation from rational exponents to real exponents such that it's monotonous in the exponent
08:03:16 <Cale> wob_jonas: How do you know that extension is unique?
08:03:39 <wob_jonas> and even without calculus, it's possible to prove that on rational exponents it's monotonous, so an extension exists, and with a bit more work, it's even possible to prove that the extension is unique
08:04:05 <wob_jonas> Cale: without calculus, you do stuff with inequations to effectively prove that it's continuous on rationals
08:04:21 <wob_jonas> and prove that way that the extension at any point is unique
08:04:46 <wob_jonas> or you just take it at faith at that point and prove it later after you've done some basic calculus, which is still not circular
08:04:47 <Cale> I've never seen a highschool introduce enough concepts to actually make the thing work.
08:05:09 <Cale> Well, some presentations aren't circular, but just leave out details, those are the better ones
08:05:12 <wob_jonas> Cale: I could recommend a good textbook, but all the good books at highschool level I know are in Hungarian
08:05:32 <Cale> I'm sure in some parts of the world, they do a better job than in the US and Canada
08:05:37 <wob_jonas> how much mathematics do you read in Hungarian?
08:06:37 <pikhq> Unfortunately, schools in the US *seem* to like introducing logarithms quite quickly. I think this is for historical reasons, though.
08:06:41 <Cale> The best way to do it, imo, is just to wait until you have the integral
08:06:49 <Cale> and/or power series
08:06:54 <Cale> one or the other will do well enough
08:07:04 <pikhq> Logarithms used to be a practical requirement for a lot of calculation, after all.
08:07:24 <Cale> Yeah, it's sort of a silly hold-over from the times when people actually used log tables
08:07:47 <wob_jonas> Note that you also need to know that exponentiation is continuous to be able to define logarithms
08:07:49 <Cale> and so you'd need some sort of hazy idea of what they were about in order to use them to multiply numbers faster
08:08:05 <wob_jonas> so it's definitely needed, but it's still possible to just leave the proof for later in a high school
08:08:16 <Cale> wob_jonas: You need to know that the integral of a continuous function is continuous :)
08:08:29 <Cale> and the integral of a positive function is monotone
08:08:29 <pikhq> Even if you didn't really get them, it was worth at least having the directly relevant properties shoved in your head.
08:08:35 <wob_jonas> Cale: no, the power series is the other definition, and you need to know both in any case, and prove them equivalent
08:08:47 <Cale> Well, depends on how you go about things
08:09:01 <Cale> integral from 1 to x of 1/t dt
08:09:19 <Cale> You can take that as the definition of log x
08:09:27 <wob_jonas> um... yes, but I don't think that really helps you
08:09:27 <Cale> and work everything out from there
08:09:53 <Cale> You need a bunch of properties about integrals which get proven using the least upper bound property of the reals
08:09:58 <wob_jonas> well, I don't really sure what all the possible ways are and which work and which don't, I just know one way I think it should be done, but whatever
08:10:44 <Cale> i.e. that any nonempty set of real numbers which is bounded above has a least upper bound (or supremum)
08:11:56 <Cale> You can use that directly to define the logarithm, but you end up doing a lot of low level work to prove the rest of its properties then
08:12:25 <Cale> It's better to put that low level work toward proving some general facts about integrals, and then just use those
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08:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> Trump said that, because Hillary insulted millions of decent Americans, she should either apologize or drop out.
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08:50:50 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to start using the ⸮ for sarcasm, but there's no inverted version for spanishization :(
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09:08:17 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it looks like it's more common for rhetorical questinos
09:08:54 <HackEgo> [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
09:13:45 <fizzie> They probably couldn't tell whether to call it the REVERSED INVERTED QUESTION MARK or the INVERTED REVERSED QUESTION MARK, and therefore omitted it completely.
09:14:32 <oerjan> maybe they just accidentally inverted its existence.
09:14:57 <fizzie> ≟ is useful, should replace all other uses of = with it. Because you can just never be sure.
09:14:59 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I don't think unicode omits any character just because they can't decide on a good name. they have tons of characters with bad official names.
09:15:17 <HackEgo> [U+225F QUESTIONED EQUAL TO]
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10:31:59 <hppavilion[1]> In order to have a machine in the style of The Time Machine (one which makes you experience time differently)
10:33:07 <hppavilion[1]> You would have to adjust your temporal speed (s/s). You'd likely have to adjust it continuously (rather than a clean jump), so you'd have to know how much your temporal speed can change in 1 second (presumably on your side)- how many s/s/s. This is, of course, s/s^2, or 1/s
10:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> Therefor, how good your time machine is is measured in Hertz
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10:53:09 <myname> "i am a floobicratican! we stand for more freedom unless it's not a freedom we like, in which case we refer to its restriction as patriotism"
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17:08:09 <\oren\> Gah, is the middle of septemeber hiring season or something?
17:08:39 <\oren\> suddenly four firms have emailed me in 24 hours
17:11:37 <Taneb> \oren\, I think it's to get fresh graduates
17:18:02 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've got a year left
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18:18:56 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I've been wanting a letter for the Eŋgliʃ Reformed Alphabet that makes the english-equivalent 'ch' sound. I've been using 'ĉ/Ĉ' so far, but I just realized I could just use 'q/Q' )
18:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Many ſtores are named as a poſſeſſive- "Smith's". If a ſtore is named for a group ſharing a laſt name, it's "Smiths'". If you want to refer to more than one Smiths', you ſay "Smith's's" or ſomething weird like that.)
18:53:49 <nortti> hm, wasn't the convention to use 'ſs' for two consecutive ones?
18:54:49 <Taneb> nortti, I believe so, iirc that's where ß comes from
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19:24:30 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I thought ß was ſz and only allowed at the end of words
19:25:11 <myname> just not at the beginning
19:25:20 <myname> straße is pretty valid
19:25:36 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: I seem to remember some kind of rule about having two 'ſ's in a row, but checking wikipedia it doesn't speak of that
19:25:55 <myname> also, the convention was to put s on the start of a syllable and the other thing at the end
19:26:09 <myname> so it would've been stra|-se
19:26:43 <hppavilion[1]> (Haviŋ boþ 'ſ' and "ʃ" iſ kind of confuſiŋ, as ðey look ſimilar in many fonts)
19:27:24 <nortti> wikipedia page 'ſ' redirects to 's', not 'long s'
19:30:01 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: why use 'ſ', tho, you don't seem to be using it for any distinct phoneme?
19:30:37 <nortti> and your approach seems to be mostly to do away with legacy complications, why reintroduce one that has already fallen out of use?
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20:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> What would the office of Copresident of the United States of America (POTUS*) be?
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20:07:24 <alercah> I believe that Alexander Hamilton lost the dual to establish it
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20:10:07 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 14h 50m 41s ago: I'm sorry, though I'm not exactly sure what in particular I did. :(
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20:27:56 <\oren\> what if instead of just reforming english spelling, we just agreed to pronounce everything in a japanese accent and use katakana!
20:31:30 <\oren\> or skip the entire issue and write every word with a different character
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20:37:19 <Taneb> \oren\, you can't transliterate my name into Japanese characters
20:38:02 <Taneb> (hurrah for the voiceless dental fricative)
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20:41:12 <pikhq> ｱｲ ﾌｫｱ ﾜﾝ ﾗｲｸ ｼﾞｯｽ ｱｲﾃﾞｨｱ｡ ｲﾂ ｿ ｼﾝﾌﾟﾙ!
20:42:01 <shachaf> Oh, there's a bu, never mind.
20:45:01 <Taneb> shachaf, it was "Nathan" I was referring to
20:45:43 <shachaf> Taneb: that's transliaterated from the hebrew which has no fricatives hth
20:46:00 <pikhq> The standard way of transcribing the voiceless dental fricative would be with "s".
20:46:31 <FireFly> So just nickname Taneb 'Na', and call him Na-san
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20:52:41 <pikhq> Taneb: So yeah. ﾈｲｻﾝ is a perfectly fine transcription.
20:56:02 <pikhq> 私haveも書ten英語と漢字為嘘s&笑s.It's楽.
20:56:43 <shachaf> "I have ten pooches. It's great."
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20:58:14 <pikhq> No, that would be "私有十犬.It's大良." or some such.
20:58:59 <pikhq> I do not have ten pooches.
20:59:04 <pikhq> But I am soon moving somewhere with three!
20:59:09 <pikhq> It will be poochtastic.
21:02:26 <shachaf> There are three pooches in Colorado?!
21:02:42 <pikhq> There are three pooches at the place I'm moving to *in* Colorado.
21:03:06 <pikhq> Three pooches in the house!
21:03:20 <pikhq> Well, except when they're outside.
21:03:40 <shachaf> They don't even need to go outside.
21:03:59 <pikhq> I'm used to cats that go outside often though.
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21:15:28 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any traditional, ſimple methods for graphing functions in 3-D?
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21:17:27 <izalove> is this ſ thing an attempt to be as annoying as possible?
21:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Alſo, I rebound my 's' key to 'ſ' by default
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21:47:02 <fizzie> There's a random default.
21:47:16 <fizzie> It comes from 'words'.
21:48:33 <wob_jonas> it takes a hexadecimal number argument
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21:53:46 <HackEgo> Hi hppavilion[1]. Havilion[1].
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22:04:16 <\oren\> exact quote from DNC email:
22:07:06 <\oren\> We have been compromised! But it's all ok. Here is our new password: HHQTevgHQ@z&8b6.
22:08:21 <\oren\> how can anyone be so stupid
22:12:00 <\oren\> thae email was sent by Rachel Palermo (press secretary of the DNC) to RegionalPress@dnc.org which seems to be a mailing list
22:13:17 <\oren\> i wonder if hillary clinton's email server also renewed passwords using this ultra-secure method
22:14:42 <\oren\> oh, it didn;t happen twice, she had to resend the email because the password was wrong
22:15:01 <\oren\> the actual password was HQTevgHQ@z&8b6
22:15:52 <\oren\> seriously people should flood her linkedin and facebooks calling her a moron
22:18:57 <fizzie> Also, "HQTevgHQ@z&8b6" still has two Hs.
22:19:16 <\oren\> another crazy email: From: Manriquez, Pablo Subject: Password Needed for dncpress@dnc.org Text: Does anyone have it handy? Thank you!
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22:20:27 <\oren\> seriously what is with these people transferring passwords unencrypted over networks, neopets had better security than that
22:22:42 <\oren\> some of their infrastructure at least went with sending password change links rather than actual passwords
22:27:19 <hppavilion[1]> Log in -> Forgot password -> Forgot email -> Enter new email -> Send password change link to new email
22:30:12 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Her server wasn't hacked by 1337 Russian H4XX0ЯZ, it was hacked by a totally normal Russian with the most basic understanding of computers who just used Billary's biography to answer the password reset security questions.
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22:32:43 * hppavilion[1] is far too proud of the phrase "1337 Russian H4XX0Я"
22:38:23 <izalove> a 2d game where you're in a modern art museum and you have to steal a painting, but the museum changes its shape. there are one or more guardians and you lose if they see you
22:38:57 <izalove> guardians cannot see through walls but they may see through windows
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22:43:39 <myname> how would you make that 2d? with windows spanning from top to bottom?
22:44:28 <izalove> uh no just a view from the top
22:44:38 <izalove> windows can just be represented as holes in walls i guess
22:45:04 <myname> sounds a bit like hitman go
22:50:20 <izalove> is it called -go for pokemon go?
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22:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe Catholic Confession would work better if it were distributed- instead of a confessional with a room for a priest and a room for a shamee (though traditional confessionals actually have two shamee rooms and a priest in the middle), two adjacent rooms where each serves as priest-like to the other; they trade confessions and penanceſ
22:59:07 <fizzie> izalove: I believe it has the 'go' suffix just to denote "mobile".
22:59:19 <fizzie> izalove: It does predate Pokémon GO by much.
22:59:55 <izalove> oooh so pokemon go has that suffix because of hitman go
23:00:00 <izalove> thanks for clarifying it fizzie
23:00:48 <fizzie> If you want to think of it like that. I have no idea who started it, but it's definitely not limited to those two games.
23:01:32 <fizzie> (The latest Pokémon GO update doesn't work on my phone. :/)
23:01:44 <myname> fizzie: you have root, then
23:02:07 <fizzie> myname: It's an Android "dev-keys" device, which counts as that.
23:03:13 <fizzie> (Aka an "userdebug" build.)
23:03:35 <myname> doesn't matter that much to me. the game is boring as hell
23:03:56 <fizzie> I like incrementing numbers, and it's got a lot of them to increment.
23:04:03 <fizzie> (Also walking around.)
23:04:46 <fizzie> I agree that it's quite boring, but for some reason walking around without having those numbers increment feels like waste of walking now.
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23:05:09 <fizzie> Maybe I should use a fitness tracker or something instead.
23:05:48 <myname> but yeah, there seems to be not a single really interesting ar game around
23:06:14 <fizzie> I also think several of the critters are cute.
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23:07:03 <myname> my dwarfs won't haul :/
23:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> Though it'd have to alternate- with two rooms L, R each occupied by one c \in C (the congregation) at a time, the priest starts in one of the rooms (let's say he starts on the left (L); a priestess would start on the right (R)), the first Congregation member enters R, confesses, and is issued a penance. The priest exits. [ret] The next member enters L, confesses, and is issued a penance by the occupant of R. R exits. goto <cleanup> if
23:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> empty(C). The next in line enters R, confesses, and the occupant of L issues a penance and leaves. goto [end] if empty(C). goto [ret]. [end] L and R both exit. Confession complete, everyone goes and fulfills their penance
23:07:53 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The holy C.
23:08:53 <hppavilion[1]> (I was originally going to make it so everyone pairs off- two people enter L and R, L confesses to R, R issues penance; R confesses to L, L issues penance, but then I realized that inevitably leads to L inflating penance if they feel R was unfair and R reducing penance so as not to be seen as such)
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23:09:09 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, alternating loop-pairing is MUCH more entertaining)
23:13:37 <hppavilion[1]> (If one wanted to remove the "I is capitalized because the speaker is the most important person on earth" thing from english (for some reason; maybe because it's just a little unnecessary?), would it be better to say 'I' should be lowercase or that all personal pronouns ({'I', 'You', 'He', 'She', 'They' (when singular, ...}) should be capitalized?)
23:13:45 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
23:14:08 <FireFly> it's a pretty boring factoid
23:14:43 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Wait, are you named after the show or is the show named after you?
23:14:50 <shachaf> FireFly sprø som selleri and chews ice.
23:15:12 <hppavilion[1]> (It obviously can't be a coincidence, as #esoteric is the centrer of everything)
23:15:58 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: neither, as far as I know
23:16:04 <FireFly> I'm named after the insect, thank you very much
23:16:41 <FireFly> correlation, causation, etc etc
23:18:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Centrer: The systematically and sarcastically annoying approach to settling the er/re divide, taking the ideas of both options and combining them badly in a way that removes the benefits of the American spelling and is somehow /worse/ than the sum of its parts)
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23:24:43 <hppavilion[1]> `? le/rn synergy/Something is synergetic when it violates the Law of Conservation of Energy by managing to release more energy than is put in. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity.
23:24:44 <HackEgo> le/rn synergy/Something is synergetic when it violates the Law of Conservation of Energy by managing to release more energy than is put in. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:24:51 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn synergy/Something is synergetic when it violates the Law of Conservation of Energy by managing to release more energy than is put in. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity.
23:25:29 <shachaf> that wisdom entry is pointless
23:28:57 <hppavilion[1]> As is tradition, the challenger may choose the arbitrator from the pool of eligible arbitrators.
23:39:49 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Roman numeral extension: I is for 1, J is for the denominator (the denominator is assumed to be 1 unless there are symbols overriding- VIII is 8/1 = 8, VIIJ is 8/1 = 8, VIIJJ is 8/2 = 4
23:41:32 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], what would XXX be
23:41:53 <Taneb> Not 20/10 or 10/20
23:42:20 <Taneb> How would you write 20/10 then
23:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Because it's vaguely associated with X and isn't already taken.
23:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> (the 'letter after the normal numeral' thing is just a coincidence)
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00:10:13 <zzo38> That is not how fractions in Roman numbers are work.
00:10:22 <zzo38> S means one half, and a dot means one twelvth, is how to do.
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00:24:47 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 111 Dec 9 2015 bin/dontaskdonttelllist \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 19 Dec 9 2015 bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist -> dontaskdonttelllist
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00:30:40 <oerjan> <nortti> wikipedia page 'ſ' redirects to 's', not 'long s' <-- you could have said it was technical reasons, i was all ready to fix it...
00:31:05 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
00:31:53 <oerjan> i may have forgotten about using that one...
00:32:02 <shachaf> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mglukhov is pretty irritating
00:32:50 <shachaf> They added a bunch of links to their website and got warned not to spam. So instead they added a screenshot of a web browser with the URL bar showing their website's URL, purportedly as a diagram.
00:33:39 <oerjan> sounds like something that a little cropping could fix.
00:33:54 <shachaf> Oops, I meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Mglukhov
00:34:06 <shachaf> Cropping would be a funny way to fix it.
00:34:53 <shachaf> Though I'm not sure their article contribution isn't contrived to justify the existence of the screenshot in the first place.
00:34:58 <izalove> shachaf: http://optioncreator.com/long-straddle is this the website?
00:35:11 <izalove> just wanted to know if this http://optioncreator.com/long-straddle is the site they should be stop spamming
00:35:19 <izalove> oh so it's http://optioncreator.com/long-straddle
00:35:29 <izalove> i hope they'll stop spamming http://optioncreator.com/long-straddle
00:36:00 <oerjan> i take it you work there.
00:36:12 <izalove> no i don't work at http://optioncreator.com/long-straddle
00:37:11 <shachaf> this person posted all sorts of spam
00:37:16 <shachaf> but you seem to be obsessed with long straddles
00:37:41 <shachaf> it was boring before you started
00:38:04 <shachaf> I'd guess that it was negative-sum.
00:38:17 <shachaf> Anyway I wonder whether there's an easy anonymous way to report that spammer.
00:38:38 <izalove> make fake user -> report bad user -> delete fake user
00:39:19 <FireFly> Which is as anonymous as your IRC connection
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00:41:16 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangle_(options) is pretty blatant.
00:42:24 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: obvEuslE, I is capitLIzd bEcuz I is u loG vWl!
00:42:31 <izalove> i just noticed the new interface on github
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00:47:40 <oerjan> whatever, still not responsive.
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00:49:18 <hppavilion[1]> Gift of the Magi is a little weak, because [spoiler alert] hair grows back
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00:59:48 <izalove> "it's a crappy vow, try again"
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01:03:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> people should not do that <-- shachaf++
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01:13:21 <oerjan> 14:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe Catholic Confession would work better if it were distributed- [...] two adjacent rooms where each serves as priest-like to the other; they trade confessions and penanceſ <-- that won't work because ordinary people have not made a life vow to keep the priestly rules including confidence
01:14:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: how would you be sure the other guy is even a catholic...
01:14:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The priest pokes him with the catholic stick to make sure.
01:15:59 <oerjan> [redacted snarky comment]
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01:17:17 <zzo38> If the priest does not follow that rule then he is excommunicated, and therefore is not the priest.
01:22:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: another problem is that ordinary catholics might not know all the rules for penance - iirc there are cases where you cannot get absolution without intervention from the vatican.
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01:25:53 <oerjan> hm maybe i'm confused.
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01:44:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh found it: "This is the case, for example, with unusually serious offenses, as some excommunicable offenses are reserved to the bishop or even to the Holy See, and their permission to grant absolution would first have to be obtained."
01:44:44 <shachaf> fizzie: You noted both Hs!
01:44:53 <shachaf> He specifically said to note only one H.
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01:47:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: previous sentence is "There are limited cases where portions of a confession may be revealed to others, but always with the penitent's permission and always without actually revealing the penitent's identity."
01:47:50 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_of_Penance
01:48:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: gremlins
01:48:25 <shachaf> how can i get excommunicated
01:48:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: it's a bit early to say whether is was peer.
01:49:18 <oerjan> shachaf: well, first you become a roman catholic...
01:49:27 <shachaf> Looks like you get automatically excommunicated for desecration of the eucharist.
01:49:35 <zzo38> If you are heretic (not all belief and stuff according to Roman Catholic) then you are implicitly excommunicated.
01:49:35 <shachaf> That's probably not so hard.
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01:50:10 <shachaf> Ah, I guess heresy is the easiest.
01:50:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: nope, it was Ping this time.
01:50:18 <zzo38> If you are baptized as Roman Catholic then that counts as being Roman Catholic even if you aren't
01:50:42 <shachaf> I would be very surprised to discover that I was baptized as Roman Catholic.
01:50:52 <oerjan> `learn Ping is a Chinese HAXX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout.
01:50:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'ping': Ping is a Chinese HAXX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout.
01:51:42 <shachaf> https://www.amazon.com/review/R2VDKZ4X1F992Q
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01:52:47 <oerjan> `slwd ping//s/Chinese/Peking Duck/
01:52:49 <HackEgo> wisdom/ping//Ping is a Peking Duck HAXX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout.
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01:53:12 <FireFly> Ping seems to have a grudge against hppavilion[1]
01:53:40 <FireFly> he just caused you to quit again
01:53:51 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it looks like I'm juſt far away from my router
01:54:15 <shachaf> Your long s is not helpful.
01:54:31 <oerjan> shachaf: no, Ping got them both
01:55:20 <shachaf> Sometimes I think the fundamental theorem of calculus is pretty magical and other times I think it's pretty obvious.
01:55:49 <shachaf> You would think I would have settled into one or the other by now.
01:55:51 <HackEgo> wisdom/ping//Ping is a Peking Duck H4XX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout.
01:56:25 <HackEgo> peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
01:57:38 <shachaf> `slwd peer//s#.#. his reviews are in high demand, but#
01:57:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/peer//. his reviews are in high demand, buteer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
01:57:57 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:57:59 <shachaf> `slwd peer//s#\.#. his reviews are in high demand, but#
01:58:01 <HackEgo> wisdom/peer//peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. his reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
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02:03:26 <shachaf> fizzie: whoa whoa whoa, the author of http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.golf/2002/07/msg1289.html is at aalto.fi
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02:16:41 <HackEgo> Something is synergetic when it violates the Law of Conservation of Energy by managing to release more energy than is put in. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity.
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02:18:32 <oerjan> `slwd synergy//s/[^.]*/Synergy is when the whole is greater than the sum of its parts/
02:18:35 <HackEgo> wisdom/synergy//Synergy is when the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity.
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02:22:08 <oerjan> also, that makes the second part more true, i think.
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03:28:48 <quintopia> uncontrolled synergy scenario does sound like a good name for an unfriendly gai foom.
03:30:37 * oerjan wonders if anyone has started making gai jokes
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03:39:45 <oerjan> dammit i hate gui's whose buttons have incomprehensible symbols without tooltips
03:43:25 <oerjan> all four of the ones under the individual twits
03:45:51 <zzo38> Gopher client I wrote for Windows some time ago has icons without tooltips although you can disable the toolbar if you don't like it; keyboard can also be used.
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06:53:48 * oerjan hits myname with the saucepan ===\__/
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06:59:09 <myname> why do you punish me for being honest?
07:00:07 <hppavilion[2]> If Kevin Bacon were to write a math paper with Paul Erdős (it would obviously have to be on time travel), could you count link-by-math as a bacon number?
07:00:31 <hppavilion[2]> "I wrote a paper with someone who wrote a paper with someone who wrote a paper with someone who wrote a paper with Kevin Bacon"
07:01:47 <hppavilion[2]> I suppose we could call that an Erdős|Bacon number (not to be confused with an Erdős-Bacon number)
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08:25:55 <wob_jonas> \oren\: are those actual passwords? not, like, jokes in the email? because I've said lots of random strings like Q4YSPlZZh or non-random strings like password12345 and said they were passwords for something, but that doesn't really make them passwords.
08:31:10 <HackEgo> \oren\'s font neoletters is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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08:45:49 <wob_jonas> As for roman numerals, I wish we could get rid of them entirely. Alas, that is unrealistic, so we should get rid of the roman numerals from 24 and above, in the sense of not even teaching them in the school curriculum, and deprecate the roman numerals up to 23.
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09:04:55 <wob_jonas> \oren\: how much of a font wizard are you? can you make your font provide glyphs for characters composed of a combining accent, especially the accented vowels used in Russian?
09:05:16 <wob_jonas> For some reason, those don't seem to have precomposed characters in unicode.
09:13:23 <fizzie> shachaf: I think I had one course taught by them.
09:16:59 <shachaf> fizzie: it's a p. good golf
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10:08:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49722&oldid=49710 * Nosomebodies * (+136)
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10:23:52 <Taneb> `welcome nosomebodies
10:23:53 <HackEgo> nosomebodies: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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11:07:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'society': Society is a platypus.
11:22:44 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn society/Society's a platypus.
11:23:38 <wob_jonas> Taneb: it's actually a line from a song from the TV series Phineas and Ferb, S2. It makes slightly more sense in context, but not much.
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16:20:53 <moonythedwarf> im working on it, but for now, ill not bother with it in here until it has more functionality
16:21:05 <Kobalt> 'import site' failed | 2 |
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16:49:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binary combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49723&oldid=45025 * Nthern * (-39) Just because the phrase "Rewriting rules" appears in the semantics description, does NOT make this a String-rewriting paradigm language
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18:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> Bacon Numbers are calculated through a method of finding the smallest link
18:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps the process should be refined to account for /number/ of links
18:17:06 <hppavilion[1]> (If you have Bcn = k through p distinct chains, your bacon number should be smaller, and Kevin Bacons should be zero)
18:18:18 <hppavilion[1]> I propose that you find the minimum bacon number through /all/ distinct chains (count p), then multiply the resulting number by (m-p)/m, where m is the number of movies Kevin Bacon is credited in
18:18:38 <hppavilion[1]> Since all movies with Kevin Bacon also star Kevin Bacon, m-p = 0, and therefor Kevin Bacon's bacon number is 0
18:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> (two chains are distinct if the sets of all people that aren't Kevin Bacon or the Target in each chain are disjoint)
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18:22:21 <hppavilion[1]> (Wait, but this means that someone who has never been in a film with Kevin Bacon can have a number of 0, or that some non-baconic individual who has costarred with Kevin Bacon in every film he was in has a bacon number of 0... shit...)
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18:52:59 <HackEgo> olist 1052: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:53:44 <hppavilion[1]> I made a new autogram, one which can be /translated/
18:54:39 <nortti> what about a non-alphabetical writing system?
18:57:24 <Kobalt> 'import site' failed | 2 |
19:02:28 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: Replace "letters" with whatever that language uses
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19:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> My little sister (let's call her samsung[2]) is adopted
19:50:45 <hppavilion[1]> But we're constantly forgetting we can't apply genetics to her
19:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> I think at one point I said she'll probably need glasses because both of our parents did with a completely straight face
19:51:47 <hppavilion[1]> But we don't even have an excuse to forget that that doesn't work (e.g. she looks like she could be genetically related), because she's /Chinese/
19:52:22 <hppavilion[1]> (ftr: I do consider her actually my sister, but when talking genetics it would just be wrong to keep that consideration)
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19:56:25 <wob_jonas> hpp: meh, eye acucity problems are so frequent these days that it's quite correct to say to any child that he might need glasses some day, and to send them on ophtalmological control exams occasionally, regardless their genetics.
19:56:58 <wob_jonas> and as a bonus, that also tests for some other eye problems not related to acute vision
19:57:33 <wob_jonas> coordination of the two eyes together and color vision problems being the most frequent
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19:59:52 <wob_jonas> the genetics does matter for some conditions, but it's not all
20:13:16 <Taneb> I need to book an eyetest...
20:13:26 <Taneb> It's been a while since I've had one, and I lost my glasses
20:16:23 <quintopia> i always thought that eye exams were "scheduled" while shows and vacations are "booked"
20:17:08 <Hoolootwo> I book one when I notice my glasses not working as well as they did a while ago
20:17:16 <Taneb> quintopia, booking something and scheduling something have different semantics to me
20:17:38 <Taneb> Like, if you schedule something, it's all parties marking the dates in the calendar
20:18:02 <Taneb> Like, I can schedule my holiday to be in April but I haven't decided where I'll go
20:18:23 <Taneb> I need to book an appointment, which will then be scheduled
20:18:44 <Taneb> Booking is more asking for the use of a service to be scheduled
20:18:47 <quintopia> but you can't schedule an appointment that will then be booked
20:18:48 <Taneb> So they're related
20:19:04 <Taneb> But definitely distinct
20:19:24 <Taneb> Unless I was an optician planning when I wanted to work, but it's still an awkward sentence to me
20:21:11 <quintopia> everyone in the u.s. schedules eye exams. you call and talk to someone and you write it down together. or you talk to someone before you leave from the last one and they email you when it's coming up
20:21:54 <shachaf> I never went for my follow-up appointment.
20:27:08 <wob_jonas> I currently do not need an eye test scheduled. Unless there's an unforseen problem, I'll probably only book a meeting with my ophtalmologist following a meeting with my optometrician in 2017 spring.
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20:45:42 <quintopia> my new eyes have demonstrated no problems in the last 6 months. i had an exam in june, and then the opthalmologist moved to CA. i have another free one i can take ... soon.
20:46:32 <quintopia> i got laser eyes installed in march
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20:55:21 <moonythedwarf> someone give me a 2 to 4 char something thats invalid in sed
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20:58:36 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unknown command: `@' |
20:58:51 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: unknown option to `s' |
20:58:59 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 10: unknown option to `s' |
20:59:26 <wob_jonas> try a semicolon instead of a space for gnu sed
20:59:40 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 10: unknown option to `s' |
20:59:44 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: unknown option to `s' |
21:00:10 <wob_jonas> in sed, you separate commands with a line feed normally, but gnu sed also allows a semicolon, which is a very useful extension
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21:02:21 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 17: unterminated address regex |
21:02:29 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 18: unterminated address regex |
21:02:38 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 18: unterminated address regex |
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21:03:59 <wob_jonas> ``` sed '0ahello, world' /dev/null
21:04:00 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: invalid usage of line address 0
21:04:08 <wob_jonas> ``` sed '1ahello, world' /dev/null
21:04:12 <wob_jonas> ``` sed '0ahello, world' /dev/null
21:04:12 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: invalid usage of line address 0
21:04:30 <wob_jonas> what? why would 0 be an invalid address for the a command?
21:04:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:04:39 <wob_jonas> ``` sed '0ahello, world' <<<$'one\ntwo\nthree'
21:04:40 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: invalid usage of line address 0
21:04:45 <wob_jonas> ``` sed '1ahello, world' <<<$'one\ntwo\nthree'
21:04:46 <HackEgo> one \ hello, world \ two \ three
21:04:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49724&oldid=49647 * Beta-Decay * (-17)
21:07:31 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: invalid usage of line address 0 |
21:07:36 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 19: unknown option to `s' |
21:07:42 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 23: unterminated address regex |
21:08:02 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 22: unterminated address regex |
21:08:58 <wob_jonas> try something that can't appear at the start of a sed command?
21:09:23 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression |
21:09:27 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression |
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21:10:45 <Kobalt> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression |
21:12:39 <Kobalt> sh: 1: dfk: not found |
21:12:45 <Kobalt> Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on | none 2234668 348268 1751284 17% / | tmpfs 26797776 0 26797776 0% /dev | shm 65536 0 65536 0% /dev/shm | tmpfs 26797776 0 26797776 0% /sys/fs/cgroup | /dev/mapper/volg1-lvdata 1496439344 1085952040 410470920 73% /mnt
21:12:53 <Kobalt> none on / type aufs (rw,relatime,si=a03d3f5c2963886,dio,dirperm1) | proc on /proc type proc (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) | tmpfs on /dev type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=755) | devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,nosuid,noexec,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=666) | shm on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,size=65536k) | mqueue on /dev/mqueue type mqueue (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime) | sysfs on /sys type sysfs
21:12:54 <Kobalt> on /sys/fs/cgroup type
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21:15:11 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf: sed can invoke the shell
21:15:53 <wob_jonas> ~>sed e;;curl http://dpaste.com/1NZ0K16.txt
21:16:24 <moonythedwarf> not booting it until im done with this or i fail and remove it
21:17:41 <wob_jonas> I mean, come on, sed has commands to write to arbitrary files. You practically don't even need the shell command for it to be unsafe on uncontrolled commands, because you can write to ~/.bashrc or some other trusted file
21:17:52 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf: which version? GNU sed?
21:18:34 <wob_jonas> https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/sed/sed-4.2.2.tar.gz probably
21:19:25 <wob_jonas> (see mirror list of ftp.gnu.org at www.gnu.org/order/ftp.html in case you want to download lots of stuff from there, which isn't the case for sed)
21:19:42 <wob_jonas> https://www.gnu.org/software/sed/ is the homepage
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22:44:20 <izalove> in pokemon games, potion restores 20 hp and fresh water restores 50
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23:23:07 <fizzie> "Bibimbap" is a funny word.
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23:30:47 <FireFly> I've heard of that but haven't tried it yet
23:31:51 <wob_jonas> Is that like a bi-map but with an extra bi-directionality?
23:36:18 <fizzie> If it didn't have that third 'b', sure.
23:36:23 <fizzie> As it is, it's a Korean dish.
23:36:41 <fizzie> (We went to http://bibimbapsoho.co.uk/ today.)
23:38:18 <shachaf> fizzie: There's this Korean food place right next to Google MTV. But it looks like it doesn't have bibimbap.
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23:39:11 <shachaf> I was going to mention https://www.yelp.com/biz/ginseng-bbq-and-tofu-house-mountain-view-2 but apparently it's closed.
23:39:40 <fizzie> I've probably walked past that place.
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23:40:29 <fizzie> shachaf: As far as I can tell, it's now http://www.grillstory.com/
23:40:40 <fizzie> "The Grill Story (formerly Ginseng) serves the best Korean BBQ at the table grill."
23:40:56 <shachaf> fizzie: Oh, so it's still a similar place.
23:41:02 <fizzie> They also do have bibimbap in the to-go menu.
23:41:15 <shachaf> I like the spellcheck underlines in http://www.grillstory.com/menu.html
23:41:36 <shachaf> The only thing I ate there was the mushroom tofu stew, I think.
23:42:00 <fizzie> I didn't realize you can get the regular menu by clicking on "menu", I thought only the menus in the drop-down menu are things.
23:42:01 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcv2x2Vh5Mo
23:42:41 <shachaf> Oh, the "togo" menu doesn't have the underlines.
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23:43:17 <fizzie> It's still in images, but they found out how to turn off spell checking.
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23:46:55 <fizzie> (I ate at an "Asian Box" in Mountain View.)
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00:13:52 <pikhq> Bibimbap is pretty tasty.
00:14:27 <shachaf> @google bim bam bom hebrew
00:14:28 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lLGmRj3_MA
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00:35:57 <hppavilion[1]> I think the "Europe and Asia or Eurasia" debate should be settled by saying Eurasia is a continent, but having a separate term describing a cultural mass
00:36:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Europe is separate from Asia in this system, and so are the Middle East and India)
00:37:12 <shachaf> Asia is a continent, and Europe is a peninsula.
00:38:19 <hppavilion[1]> Also, no it isn't, the called "Europe" is clearly more than a peninsula
00:39:33 <hppavilion[1]> (There's a bizarre model that is still taught in some places (most notably France, Italy, and Spain) that claims there are 6 continents)
00:39:52 <hppavilion[1]> (They are: Europe, Asia, Australia, Antarctica, Africa, and America)
00:40:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you have read wikipedia's article on Continent, right?
00:41:41 <oerjan> i didn't say _i_ had read it hth
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00:42:45 * oerjan ponders if he should think before speaking
00:43:06 <oerjan> otoh that is boring. otth...
00:45:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: if we have a separate term describing cultural mass, where does that put russia and some of its neighbors?
00:45:40 <oerjan> we could compromise and say europe is a pencontinent
00:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Either in Europe (a name which will be adopted as distinct from Eurasia) or split between Europe and Asia, depending on how Russia works
00:46:41 <shachaf> “Let social purpose hang itself unhindered! No- I mean, literature can replace, can actually become… Russia!”
00:46:46 <shachaf> That's not the quote I was looking for.
00:46:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm thinking that russia might need to be a third one
00:46:54 <shachaf> But I can't find the one I was looking for on that page.
00:47:07 <oerjan> they're certainly acting like they're trying to be
00:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> Asia is the parts of the former Asia that aren't India or Stanic
00:47:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i mean beyond asia and europe. although of course asia needs further breakup.
00:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> Africa is divided around the middle (apparently) and Brazil is separate from the rest of South America
00:48:12 <oerjan> and stanic ... does that include _all_ the muslim countries in the middle?
00:48:27 <shachaf> You aren't counting Russia as part of Asia?
00:48:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the middle east isn't the part that has countries named -stan
00:48:54 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7Hn1rPQouU 100% accurate
00:49:34 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm speaking about hppavilion[1]'s cultural division idea. russia is certainly not asian, and probably not european by that measure.
00:49:40 <hppavilion[1]> (We must be careful though; Scandinavia is still in Europe, but further divisions will separate it (except finland))
00:50:18 <oerjan> <shachaf> That's not the quote I was looking for. <-- i believe you.
00:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> Well, the Middle East is its own area (and probably includes Egypt, honestly) separate from the main Asia (which also excludes India)
00:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> (A radical Muslim would be referred to as an "orthodox muslim"; when talking about countries allowing certain Muslimy traditions (to any extent; Sharia Law is implied as the endpoint, but just letting them leave their classes to pray 2-3 times a day (depending on when the rules say they must and the school schedule) will be referred to as "[country name]-stan"- e.g. Americastan, Francestan, Germanystan, United Kingdom of Great Britain
01:08:04 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Never mind that permitting such prayers would probably fall more under 1st amendment rights than anything else (... in the US)
01:08:10 <pikhq> But, y'know. Racism.
01:17:09 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is it possible to make a Cesar Cipher with a non-integer key? )
01:17:41 <hppavilion[1]> 2.5 = 5/2. You alternate between a shift of 2 and a shift of 3, I guess.
01:25:41 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps the process should be refined to account for /number/ of links <-- iirc that's been done for erdős
01:26:03 <oerjan> with 1/n. but only for the first step.
01:27:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It should account for how many papers have been written by him- sure, erdős is dead /now/ (for now), but if you apply the erdős distancing function ő(a, b), a and b might both still be alive
01:31:47 <myname> so, my dwarfs can now cut down trees, collect resulting wood and make barrels in workshops
01:35:43 <myname> also, i forgot what skill is connected with actually build workshops in df
01:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> Is there such thing as cryptographic steganography? Where you encrypt two messages into one, in such a way that message A can be broken in a way that looks real, but message B (which is slightly harder to break) is a separate message discretely encoded into message A?
01:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose you could do it with case or something...
01:45:09 <hppavilion[1]> But only if it isn't on a computer; if the person who breaks it would have to be doing it by hand
01:46:18 <hppavilion[1]> Encrypt your main message using Caesar #2, capitalize and decapitalize the letters in output to encode your secreter message in quintets (caps = 1, uncaps = 0)
01:46:56 <hppavilion[1]> Even better, switch between typographic variants while doing this. single-story a = 0, double-story = 1
01:48:05 <wob_jonas> hpp: my only real take at steganography is http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=877696
01:49:24 <hppavilion[1]> (Oooh, or obsolete-cypher cypher; Vingere a long mess of garbage using the message, and the other person breaks it the usual way, discards the message and just reads the key)
01:56:26 <oerjan> ``` sed '1itest' /dev/null
01:56:55 <oerjan> izalove: who are you talking to
01:57:35 <oerjan> izalove: i was looking at wob_jonas's experiments in the log, and wondering if sed provides at _all_ any way of adding something to an empty file
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01:58:36 <oerjan> it seems to me that you cannot apply any command if there isn't an already existing line for it to act on
01:59:22 <oerjan> which is rather stupid if you wanted to, say, unconditionally add a prefix
02:00:36 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I think it does, yes. try the i command for that.
02:10:48 <oerjan> `` sed '$itest' /dev/null
02:10:56 <oerjan> `` sed '0,$itest' /dev/null
02:10:56 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 4: invalid usage of line address 0
02:11:02 <oerjan> `` sed '1,$itest' /dev/null
02:11:16 <oerjan> `` sed '1,$itest' <<<hello
02:15:38 <izalove> 1itest means when you read line 1, do i test
02:15:49 <hppavilion[1]> (Apparently the Polybius square for English usually merges I and J. Much better would be to drop W and make people use 'vv'
02:15:50 <izalove> line 1 was never read so it's never executed
02:16:28 <izalove> 0,$ 0 only works for 0,/regex/
02:16:32 <oerjan> izalove: it's not about grokking sed, i understand why it does it.
02:16:58 <izalove> ah i see, then you're just trying stupid things that you know are not gonna work
02:17:12 <oerjan> izalove: i just think it is stupid that sed _has_ no way of doing this.
02:17:34 <izalove> how do you edit a stream if you have no stream?
02:18:03 <oerjan> izalove: because sed allows appending and inserting data, and unless the file is empty you can _easily_ do it at the beginning or end of it.
02:18:19 <izalove> you can only apply commands for each line read, so if you read no line you obviously can't apply commands
02:19:12 <oerjan> izalove: you are thinking in a "this is why sed's logic implies this" way, not a "why would anyone _want_ sed's logic to work like this" way.
02:19:40 <izalove> i understand why you would want to do it but that's not how sed works
02:20:01 <shachaf> izalove: you seem to be repeating what oerjan said
02:20:01 <izalove> sed works line by line and you can only apply commands on those lines
02:20:29 <izalove> why are you siding with the stupid one
02:20:33 * oerjan swats izalove -----###
02:20:43 <oerjan> izalove: because it is your way of thinking that is stupid.
02:22:47 <izalove> you're confusing $ for something to do at the end of the file, so you're expecting sed to have a similar symbol for something to do at the beginning of the file
02:22:51 * oerjan should not swat when frustrated. sorry.
02:22:53 <izalove> but $ is for the last line
02:23:04 <oerjan> izalove: i'm not confusing anything.
02:23:29 <oerjan> izalove: i am saying that sed would be a better program if it followed a slightly more user-friendly interpretation.
02:23:52 <shachaf> oerjan: no, no, you don't understand. sed doesn't do what you're saying you wish it did. your wish is wrong.
02:24:00 <izalove> oerjan: ok think of sed actions as foreach (line for which this expression is true) { dothing }
02:24:07 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:24:25 <shachaf> oerjan: think of sed as a program that doesn't do what you want.
02:24:31 <shachaf> now do you see why it doesn't do what you want?
02:25:04 <wob_jonas> oerjan: why don't you make a patch to gnu sed that lets you use 0 as an address to run commands before the first line is read, so that there's a zeroth cycle that also ends with emptying or printing the pattern space like normal cycles?
02:25:06 <quintopia> now think of every program as a program that doesn't do what you want
02:25:16 <quintopia> now does *everything* make more sense?
02:25:16 <izalove> oerjan: you wouldn't expect a foreach to execute actions if there's no line, right?
02:25:24 <oerjan> quintopia: darn, you're right!
02:26:08 <oerjan> izalove: no, you're just fixating on your interpretation of the situation.
02:26:18 <izalove> it's the right interpretation
02:26:31 <shachaf> perhaps oerjan is too left-leaning for you
02:33:09 <quintopia> this forbes article about target's data mining and advertising is quite interesting
02:35:14 <oerjan> `` (echo hi; echo there; echo counterexample) | sed '1,2cwhoops...'
02:35:15 <HackEgo> whoops... \ counterexample
02:35:30 <oerjan> izalove: your explanation needs work hth hth ;)
02:35:44 <shachaf> oerjan: your hthing needs work hth hth
02:37:28 <oerjan> izalove: hm? i'm just saying that doesn't work like your foreach interpretation
02:38:21 <oerjan> `` (echo hi; echo there; echo counterexample) | sed '1,2ithis one i dunno what it will do'
02:38:22 <HackEgo> this one i dunno what it will do \ hi \ this one i dunno what it will do \ there \ counterexample
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02:39:02 <oerjan> so c may be the only counterexample.
02:42:43 <HackEgo> Your mysterious helpful œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
02:43:21 <shachaf> Who was your new arch-nemesis?
02:43:42 <oerjan> i have a new arch-nemesis?
02:44:00 <oerjan> i'm considering neil degrasse tyson hth
02:44:49 <oerjan> (but only because the only video i've bothered watching by him was so obviously strawman fighting)
02:46:11 <shachaf> was it http://i.imgur.com/brDnLIg.webm
02:46:32 <oerjan> my browser won't open that
02:46:47 <shachaf> what if you replace the last four characters witth gifv
02:49:32 * oerjan needs to calm down. also, food ->
02:49:45 <shachaf> oerjan: can you photograph a pooch while you're away
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02:49:57 <oerjan> no, for at least two reasons.
02:51:25 <oerjan> (1) i don't have a camera (2) there aren't any pooches around at this time (3) it would be too dark... oh wait, flash. i don't have a flash either.
02:51:57 <oerjan> point (3) applies even for the inconvenient option of bringing my laptop outside
02:51:59 <shachaf> just go outside and knock on some doors until you find someone with a pooch
02:52:35 <shachaf> many phones have built-in cameras nowadays
02:52:38 <shachaf> maybe you have one of those
02:52:49 <oerjan> i don't think so. i worked too hard on making my next door neighbors care enough to keep theirs silent hth
02:54:05 <wob_jonas> what's this? why do you need to photograph a pooch?
02:54:22 <oerjan> while i'm getting food
02:54:47 <shachaf> oerjan: what food are you getting
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03:01:04 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, 'vac-' is Latin for "empty", but that's probably unrelated)
03:10:39 <oerjan> shachaf: are you saying his argument is weak (svak in norwegian)
03:11:11 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
03:16:08 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
03:16:19 <HackEgo> Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something.
03:16:38 <HackEgo> oerjan Elronnd oerjan Elronnd Elronnd
03:16:49 <HackEgo> 2016-01-11 <oerjan> learn Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something. \ 2016-01-08 <Elronnd> learn Elronnd ... \ 2015-12-20 <oerjan> ` rm wisdom/{elronnd,b_jonas} \ 2015-12-19 <Elronnd> learn Elronnd *definitely* esoteric \ 2015-12-19 <Elronnd> learn Elronnd *Definitely* esoteric
03:17:11 <Elronnd> `rainwords HackEgo you done a good job
03:17:12 <HackEgo> HackEgo you done a good job
03:26:17 <oerjan> <izalove> in pokemon games, potion restores 20 hp and fresh water restores 50 <-- obviously their medicine is based on homeopathy hth
03:27:07 <shachaf> oerjan: please, what kind of ice cream are you offering
03:27:23 <izalove> shachaf: step 1: be mad at oerjan
03:27:43 <oerjan> shachaf: dark chocolate
03:27:57 <shachaf> i don't like chocolate ice cream
03:28:03 <shachaf> and i don't really like dark chocolate
03:28:15 <hppavilion[1]> My token non-binary lesbian friend is currently playing Pokemon and was asking me what e should do. I know nothing at all about pokemon.
03:28:19 <HackEgo> Your mysterious helpful œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
03:28:22 * oerjan gives shachaf a pistacchio one
03:28:31 <shachaf> oerjan: please, where can i get it
03:29:14 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#helpful œ#evil o#
03:29:17 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil overlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
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03:55:21 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't know if diplom-is delivers to california, alas
03:57:14 <oerjan> (of course you haven't noticed my evil scheme yet...)
03:59:01 <oerjan> the fact that the pistachio is covered in dark chocolate hth https://www.diplom-is.no/produkter/royal-pistasj1
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04:00:12 <shachaf> That's not chocolate ice cream.
04:00:26 <shachaf> And I probably don't mind dark chocolate in that form.
04:00:34 <shachaf> You should send me some so I can find out.
04:00:54 <oerjan> i don't think i can do that
04:03:42 <oerjan> (1) it needs to be kept frozen (2) mental issues
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04:05:06 <shachaf> The kind that it's rude to ask about?
04:08:13 <oerjan> anyway, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistachio_ice_cream lists some american companies
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04:29:22 <shachaf> Obviously I'm interested in Norwegian ice cream.
04:30:00 <shachaf> And none of those seem to have dark chocolate, anyway.
04:30:51 <Elronnd> norwegian ice cream is quite good
04:31:09 <HackEgo> Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
04:32:23 <Elronnd> there's a good company near where I used to live
04:32:30 <oerjan> very good, although drop the last space
04:33:31 <shachaf> "tolive" is invalid english hth
04:36:24 <shachaf> So it's a pun, because celery is crunchy
04:36:27 <alercah> shachaf: why do you hate bell peppers
04:36:51 <shachaf> pistasjiskrem isn't very crunchy at all
04:37:45 <shachaf> Pistachios, on the other hand...
04:38:24 <oerjan> shachaf: well the one you're pining for includes some nut pieces
04:38:38 <oerjan> and also the chocolate
04:38:48 <shachaf> so what you're saying is, not very sprø at all?
04:39:14 <shachaf> Was my assessment of the pun correct?
04:39:22 <alercah> is sprø the opposite of scow?
04:40:09 <oerjan> probably not. prø isn't the opposite of cow.
04:40:24 <alercah> hmm maybe there's a triangle
04:41:16 <alercah> clearly I am not as educated in these arts as you
04:41:44 <oerjan> shachaf: you've assessed well.
04:42:37 <Elronnd> Why does everyone know all these languages?
04:42:38 <oerjan> shachaf: btw i didn't invent that pun, norwegians actually use it.
04:42:46 <shachaf> A cow is the dual of a w, obviously.
04:43:11 <shachaf> There are many vegetabel colloquialisms that are difficult to translate.
04:43:23 <shachaf> In Hebrew people say "nonsense in tomato juice"
04:43:30 <shachaf> Which actually isn't a good example because it's not a pun.
04:44:03 <oerjan> a scow is the dual of a wino.
04:44:07 <Elronnd> approximate translitteration: shtuyot be mits
04:44:38 <shachaf> What are other vegetable colloquialisms?
04:44:46 <shachaf> I know there are more but it's hard to think of them.
04:46:08 <shachaf> oerjan: I've been informed that "shachaf sprø som selleri" is iggrammatical.
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04:48:14 <oerjan> shachaf: it was adapted from a previous version that was also iggrammatical hth
04:48:46 <shachaf> What was the previous version?
04:50:35 <oerjan> it's the opposite of grammatical hth
04:50:58 <Elronnd> that would be ungrammatical
04:51:24 * oerjan looks at Elronnd like he's sprø som selleri
04:51:27 <shachaf> iggrammatical is iggrammatical
04:51:30 <shachaf> but pointing that out is not very insightful
04:51:44 <Elronnd> s/insightful/iggrammatical/g
04:51:46 <shachaf> some people do it reflexively
04:51:49 <oerjan> is it, really? isn't it more immorphological.
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06:10:28 <oerjan> clippy in freefall is going to need to sort out some things...
06:18:01 <oerjan> in girl genius, grandma is one confident lady.
06:19:40 <pikhq> Yep, Clippy is quite confused at present.
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07:59:38 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-H1LddWxo8
08:05:48 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, there used to be an idiom "The only people who stay dead in comics are Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."
08:05:57 <hppavilion[1]> Bucky and Jason Todd were both brought back in 2005
08:07:50 <pikhq> Did... they bring back the Waynes?
08:10:51 <pikhq> Well, no, they are just plot devices.
08:11:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Think, what do you know about Batman's parents? They died... usually after seeing Zorro... and that's it)
08:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> (Usually it was an assassination set up to look like a mugging gone awry?)
08:13:11 <zzo38> This is my proposed API of SQLite to use with a JavaScript code http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/sqlite_js and I hope this would be better than the existing packages for SQLite on JavaScript. But, I wouldn't know how because I don't know C++ programming
08:13:46 <pikhq> Isn't SQLite pure C?
08:14:33 <zzo38> However, Node.js extension are written with C++
08:15:28 <zzo38> The asynchronous stuff I wrote might be wrong though and might need to be changed if the way I currently wrote it won't work very well.
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11:30:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Talideon * New user account
11:35:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49725&oldid=49721 * Talideon * (+191) /* Introductions */
11:38:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Talideon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49726 * Talideon * (+313) Created page with "Hello! My name's Keith Gaughan. I mirror some esolang-related content: * [https://mirrors.talideon.com/articles/qbal/ Q-BAL] - I really ought to write an implementation of t..."
11:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49727&oldid=46482 * Talideon * (+133) /* External resources */ Add a specification mirror link.
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11:57:05 <wob_jonas> "(Think, what do you know about Batman's parents? They died... usually after seeing Zorro... and that's it)" => oh, like Doctor Sarton
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13:40:32 <Kobalt> 'import site' failed | 2 |
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16:11:52 <\oren\> moonythedwarf: when is your bot going to do anything?
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16:13:54 <ais523> well the bot is going relatively slowly atm
16:14:08 <ais523> although if it's quitjoinspamming and there isn't a human attending it, it should probably be tested in a channel of its own
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16:14:50 <ais523> \oren\: how long has it been doing that?
16:15:10 -!- Kobalt has joined.
16:15:45 <\oren\> only since half an hour ago by my scrollup
16:16:08 <ais523> let's give it a while to do something more interesting before it gets banned
16:16:42 <\oren\> the frequency is about one every 4 minutes anyway
16:16:57 <ais523> that's comparable to pingout timing
16:17:03 <ais523> maybe it doesn't know how to handle the ping from the server
16:17:14 <ais523> and sends a quit rather than a pong
16:17:38 <\oren\> My bot is irssi based, so it doesn't have to handle any of that stuff
16:18:07 <\oren\> oh, so you're rebooting it
16:19:10 <ais523> right, if there's a human behind it
16:19:17 <ais523> the joinspam is less of a problem
16:19:52 <moonythedwarf> ~>pyc while True: print 1+1 # _Should_ no longer let processes run rampant
16:19:53 <ais523> it can be easier to test it in a channel of your own, though, both because you don't spam the channel as much and because other people don't say things and interrupt your tests
16:19:54 <Kobalt> 'import site' failed | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 |
16:19:54 <Kobalt> | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2
16:19:58 <\oren\> irssi can reload a script without unjoining
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16:20:19 <\oren\> or whatever the tchincal word im looking for it
16:20:41 <moonythedwarf> im going to implent childprocess based commands for the next update. :P
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16:48:30 <\oren\> I should invent a dish involving servings of waffles and call it "wunderwaffle"
16:50:39 <ais523> does that use English pronunciation, German pronunciation, or change halfway through the word?
16:50:56 <\oren\> or maybe a whole waffle house: luftwaffle, panzerwaffle, wunderwaffle, atomwaffle, waffle-ss
16:51:38 <\oren\> ais523: not sure. I could only get away with it in japan or korea anyway, where noone knows how to pronounce any of that anyway
16:52:19 <\oren\> like in germany I would probably go to jail on opening night
16:53:13 <Taneb> \oren\, luftwaffe is still the name of the German Air Force
16:54:02 <\oren\> but i wouldn't get away with a dish called waffle ss
16:55:21 <\oren\> or probably even "wunderwaffle" would be frowned upon
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17:25:49 <\oren\> ~>pyc print "hello " + "wrold \n"
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17:46:34 <wob_jonas> Wow, http://faculty.evansville.edu/ck6/encyclopedia/ETC.html Encyclopedia of Triangle Centers has really grown. It has over 10000 points now.\
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18:04:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49728&oldid=46494 * Primo * (+35) /* 48 */
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18:17:19 <myname> what is special about 45306?
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18:22:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49729&oldid=49728 * Primo * (+35) /* 208 */
18:24:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49730&oldid=49729 * Primo * (+0) /* 48 */
18:24:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49731&oldid=49730 * Primo * (+0) /* 208 */
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19:37:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49732&oldid=49731 * Rdebath * (-70) Sorry, not interesting (not shorter or fewer cells) and they use three cells anyway. See talk.
19:42:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49733&oldid=38128 * Rdebath * (+1536) /* Note on crunchfuck and more values. */ new section
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20:30:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Why is ONLY the third verse of Deutschlandlied sung in Germany? Like, the first verse is kind of objectionable, but the second is fine, though not really a good first verse. Why not 3 then 2?)
20:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, I guess 2 could be considered sexist? "Our women are the best women" is I guess offensive to certain horseshoes?)
20:32:48 <hppavilion[1]> (Is the current government of Germany considered different from the one the Third Reich was part of, or the same government but reformed?)
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20:48:24 <FireFly> Pretty sure it's considered different
20:48:39 <FireFly> And, well, dunno, maybe they wanted it short
20:56:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Every country should standardize their emergency codes. I just learned it's 112 in Deutschland rather than 'Mürika's standard 911. I vote we all agree worldwide to use 900, 999, 666, or 100. 999 and 666 are best because they're easily memorable and can be typed quickly; I like 666, but other people won't and 999 is easier because it's the lower-right)
20:57:04 <nortti> 999 was rejected by GSM body due to being easy to accidentally dial
20:57:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Current numbers in each country would be a standard redirect to the new one)
20:58:07 <wob_jonas> hpp: it's more or less standardized, in that the recommended number is 112 everywhere in Europe and 911 everywhere in North America
20:58:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: 112 works everywhere in Europe
20:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Ah. I vote 'murica adopts it as an alternate.
20:58:37 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the US uses 911 because numbers of the form x11 were used as special cases in the original US numbering system
20:58:58 <wob_jonas> yes, 112 is definitely easier to dial, at least on European phones where you can dial 112 without unlocking the key lock, because the three buttons are next to each other
20:59:04 <ais523> also, I've seen 999 dialed by accident myself (it was a small child who happened to like the number 9)
20:59:11 <ais523> using nonrepeating digits makes that somewhat harder
20:59:28 <ais523> also, on a rotary phone, you have to rotate the dial the entire distance to dial a 9, 112 is much faster on one of those
20:59:32 <ais523> (but nobody uses them nowadays)
20:59:57 <wob_jonas> hpp: I think 911 probably sometimes works in Europe too (from mobile phones), for compatibility
21:00:06 <wob_jonas> but it's hard to tell because you can't find out which ones work without actually calling it
21:00:19 <ais523> you could get a job as an emergency communications tester
21:00:36 <ais523> there are people who go around dialing 911 from every phone in the US as it's set up to make sure it's connected to the emergency system correctly
21:00:44 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: It's the same in the US; in fact, you can dial any number without connecting on iPhone (I think; maybe it's only emergency calls or only one before logging in)
21:00:56 <ais523> obviously, you need to let the dispatchers know that that's what you're doing
21:02:06 <wob_jonas> hpp: one is that you can dial emergency calls from any phone without a sim card, or with an invalid (expired) sim card, or with a valid sim card but without knowing the Pin, and in all of those cases you can't do any other calls (not even free calls)
21:03:38 <wob_jonas> but what I'm talking about is that on phones that aren't fold-out or slide-out, but have a key lock activated by a short combination of keys (or rarely, by a physical switch on the side) to avoid accidental keyopresses and butt-dialling, if the keys are locked you can still press 1 1 2 green to dial emergency.
21:03:54 <fizzie> 112 works everywhere the GSM standard holds sway, even outside Europe.
21:04:04 <wob_jonas> this makes it very easy to call emergency services blindly, without looking at the phone, because those three buttons (1 and 2 and green) are next to each other
21:04:28 <ais523> we use 112 but 999 still works for backwards compatibility
21:04:28 <fizzie> (Even in places where the "traditional" number is something else.)
21:04:44 <ais523> to the extent that hardly anyone actually knows or uses the new number
21:06:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, lots of countries still have older emergency service numbers that still work. in Hungary, they're 104 for ambulance, 105 for firefighters, 107 for police (these were introduced within my lifetime, the previous ones were 04, 05, 07),
21:06:06 <fizzie> Finland had 000 as the nationwide emergency number when it was established.
21:06:12 <wob_jonas> I think Austria has 122, 133, 144.
21:06:25 <fizzie> It might still work for all I know, but the official number was changed to 112 in 1993.
21:06:34 <wob_jonas> 112 is quite well advertized here so I think most people know about it, which is a good thing
21:06:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: in the UK the way it works is that when you call 112, you get linked to a dispatcher who basically just asks you which emergency services you need
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21:06:55 <ais523> then transfers you to the individual emergency-handling department
21:07:02 <wob_jonas> mind you, some phones also have an interface that lets you call emergency services without knowing the number, although the number is easier
21:07:04 <ais523> there are six, but most people only know three of them
21:07:23 <ais523> (fire, police, ambulance; cave rescue, mountain rescue, coastguard)
21:07:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, there are more than those three here too. I don't know how they work.
21:08:21 <wob_jonas> I don't know how many of them are and which ones they are and how the central number works (I think at some point it was connected to the police emergency line, and they'd transfer you, but that might have changed since), because luckily I've had no need to call them yet.
21:08:33 <fizzie> Wikipedia has some rather dubious lists of more detailed emergency numbers, which I couldn't really find citations for and find a bit suspicious.
21:08:37 <ais523> we do have separate less-than-an-emergency lines, though
21:08:41 <fizzie> Or at least had, maybe they've cleaned up.
21:08:51 <ais523> 101 will contact the police for something low priority
21:09:19 <ais523> and 111 is a triage line for when you think you have a medical emergency, but aren't sure because you aren't a doctor, and need a qualified doctor to let you know whether it's a medical emergency or not
21:09:39 <ais523> (this situation comes up regularly enough to need its own number, and I've had to use it in the past)
21:09:43 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers
21:10:28 <wob_jonas> In the older days, phonebooks used to have a page or two at the beginning listing dozens of useful not-quite-emergency numbers (and also the emergency numbers), but for some reason they removed those in later editions (even when phonebooks still existed) and now I don't know of an up to date list, not even online.
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21:10:44 <ais523> I think 101 has done wonders for crime reporting, because before it was introduced
21:10:59 <ais523> nobody could remember how to report a crime that didn't lead to any immediate danger for anyone
21:11:04 <ais523> so they probably went mostly unreported
21:11:27 <wob_jonas> Many of those numbers were not short abbreviated numbers, but normal format ones, but these days there are a lot more abbreviated numbers out there (I think there are some with six digits, seriously, although most are four digits long)
21:11:40 <hppavilion[1]> People often say they're a "Black belt" in e.g. Python-Fu. Clearly they aren't real programmers, as programming ranks are hex (and #000000 is the lowest rank)
21:11:52 <wob_jonas> I'd like to see a list, especially because they keep changing the short numbers very quickly a lot of times.
21:12:40 <hppavilion[1]> The base rank (can't do anything at all) is #000000, every time you level up you add 1 to the smallest pair, with the tiebreaker being Red before Blue before Green
21:12:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: for reporting crimes in non-emergency, we do have a number called "Tanú vonal", but I don't know its number
21:13:39 <wob_jonas> hpp: wait, #000000 is can't do anything at all? how about those people that do more harm to the code than help?
21:14:42 <ais523> they have colors like the overblack that the NES has
21:14:50 <ais523> (you aren't supposed to use it because TVs get confused by it)
21:15:17 <ais523> basically you specify colors to analog TVs via using a range of voltages
21:15:25 <ais523> overblack has a voltage beyond the black end of the range
21:15:28 <ais523> hmm… ultrablack? infrablack?
21:16:39 <wob_jonas> (after looking it up) Apparently it's called "telefontanú" instead, is free to call, and has the number +3680555111
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21:17:52 <ais523> wob_jonas: is +3680 significant/memorable in any way? I assume at least some of the leading digits refer to Hungary
21:18:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: +36 is Hungary, +3680 followed by 6 digits are free to call numbers
21:19:17 <ais523> so the only bit that isn't structural is a fairly memorable 555111
21:19:43 <wob_jonas> +3690 or +3681 followed by 6 digits are premium rate numbers, their rate per call or rate per minute can be determined from the next three digits using a step function you have to look up in documentation.
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21:20:51 <wob_jonas> The 80 bit is somewhat standard, I think 80 or 800 are used as the are code for free to call numbers in some other countries too
21:21:37 <pikhq> 800 is the area code used in the North American Dialing Plan.
21:21:45 <pikhq> Erm, Numbering Plan.
21:21:50 <ais523> yes, UK prefix for a free to call number is 0800
21:22:01 <fizzie> And "1-900" for premium-rate services, I believe. (In the USA, I mean.)
21:22:03 <ais523> and the leading 0 is structural
21:22:23 <fizzie> (Where the '1' was the characteristically humble country code.)
21:22:24 <ais523> (it's basically the equivalent of a leading / in a path)
21:22:31 <pikhq> Except that's not US-specific...
21:22:40 <wob_jonas> these free to call numbers are sometimes called "zöld szám" in Hungary by the way
21:22:57 <wob_jonas> some of the abbreviated numbers (which these days all start with 1, but some used to start with 0 or 9) are also free to call
21:22:57 <ais523> I can't guess what Hungarian means by looking at it :-P
21:23:06 <pikhq> The NPNA is used by like a couple dozen countries.
21:23:16 <fizzie> I can't guess what Hungarian means even if Finnish is technically related.
21:23:19 <wob_jonas> what I wish for is there to be a consistent way to call Hungarian abbreviated numbers from abroad, but I don't think there is one
21:23:40 <wob_jonas> some of the abbreviated numbers have long equivalents, but not in a systematic relation
21:23:44 <pikhq> (US, Canada, and the Carribean)
21:24:47 <ais523> fizzie: I saw an experiment on that where they gave some Hungarians in the room some Finnish to try to decode
21:24:59 <ais523> none of them could figure it out, but they started to see the connections when they were explained
21:25:24 <ais523> so from this small amount of anecdotal evidence I conclude that the languages are related, but only tenuously
21:25:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, the two languages are too far to be even partly intelligable.
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21:25:50 <wob_jonas> the relationship is more in the grammar system
21:26:02 <ais523> reading Middle English can be fun
21:26:10 <fizzie> Finnish and Estonian work better that way.
21:26:15 <ais523> it's pretty alien, especially in the spelling, but you can often figure out what it means
21:26:38 <pikhq> They are both Uralic languages, and even Finno-Ugric, but that doesn't help too much.
21:26:45 <wob_jonas> as opposed to figuring out Swedish from German, which is much easier
21:27:10 <pikhq> English and German are both Germanic languages, and even not *that* far apart, but going from English to German can be pretty mystifying without study.
21:27:34 <ais523> English is only partly Germanic
21:27:44 <ais523> it has large Romance influence too
21:28:04 <ais523> this is part of the reason the vocabulary is so large, it's basically glued two different language families together
21:28:05 <pikhq> English is 100% Germanic, at least from a language family sense.
21:28:14 <pikhq> But it has, yes, huge Romance influence.
21:28:14 <ais523> (the grammar/structural components are mostly Germanic though)
21:28:32 <pikhq> It's also got huge influence from a *different branch* of the Germanic family.
21:28:53 <pikhq> It's West Germanic, but with vocabulary and grammatical changes adopted from North Germanic.
21:28:53 <wob_jonas> also, obviously how easy it is to understand a language from another depends a lot on the topic discussed and even the writing style, because those can influence how much of the vocabulary is related
21:28:55 <fizzie> 100% Germanic, not from concentrate.
21:29:19 <wob_jonas> if you talk about modern topics like computers, there are more likely to be words that were loaned recently from English or Latin or Greek
21:29:49 <ais523> or that were just outright invented
21:30:27 <wob_jonas> yes, invented and then borrowed from English
21:31:05 <ais523> hmm, I was just checking Wiktionary to see if the urban legend about the word "quiz" having been invented for a bet is true
21:31:30 <wob_jonas> and if you're reading French about technical topics, then it can depend a lot on the writer how many English-derived words they use
21:31:30 <ais523> apparently there's no evidence behind that theory but there isn't evidence behind any of the other theories either
21:31:36 <ais523> so I guess it's possibly true but probably not
21:32:27 <ais523> Wikipedia says that the timeline is wrong (the bet is commonly alleged to have happened in 1791, but the word was used in 1781)
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21:36:34 <wob_jonas> Another useful non-emergency phone number is +3640374636 (branded as +3640DRINFO) which you can call for non-emergency medical problems to find out which clinic you should go to for urgent or non-urgent problems of any kind, based on the type of problem, time, and where you live.
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22:04:05 <fizzie> Can you call +36403762746 to find out which pills to eat?
22:04:41 <shachaf> for a good time call +1-202-762-1069
22:06:22 <wob_jonas> fizzie: they can tell you the information in the public description of all medicine products and on interactions (you can also find these on their webpage at http://dr.info.hu/drinfo/pid/0/medicine ), but they probably won't give you a diagnosis and will sometimes tell you to ask a doctor or pharmacist instead
22:07:28 <wob_jonas> I don't really know how much medical information they will give you
22:07:29 <ais523> apparently nobody sees pharmacists nowadays
22:07:41 <ais523> at least, I went to a pharmacist for a question which was definitely in their domain
22:07:50 <ais523> and they answered it, but seemed surprised and happy that I hadn't just gone to a doctor
22:07:58 <wob_jonas> their homepage does have some medical information
22:08:18 <fizzie> wob_jonas: That's why I suggested +3640DRMARIO instead.
22:08:42 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, very few people will just ask a pharmacist about things like drug interactions.
22:08:49 <pikhq> Which is literally their job and domain of expertise.
22:09:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's my experience too, people (including me) rarely ask questions from pharmacists
22:09:14 <ais523> in my case, I was asking whether it was safe to end a course of a drug early if it wasn't having the hoped-for effect, or whether it was one for which I needed to take the whole course
22:09:37 <shachaf> There's also one in Colorado.
22:09:47 <wob_jonas> The questions I usually ask about them is which is the cheapest product equivalent to some other product.
22:09:58 <pikhq> ais523: Seems reasonable.
22:10:46 <wob_jonas> Mind you, it may help now that I have a doctor as a brother and I can ask questions to him.
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22:26:15 <\oren\> they should just have made one of the emergency numbers 8675309
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22:27:06 <Taneb> wob_jonas, it's easy to remember
22:27:16 <\oren\> becuase everyone knows that number from the song
22:27:37 <wob_jonas> I don't. That song was never popular here.
22:28:12 <\oren\> well, in places where that song was popular, then
22:28:20 <shachaf> I've never heard the song.
22:29:08 <wob_jonas> People can remember the emergency numbers because they're written on a lot of places that are easy to notice: on lots of emergency vehicles, near public payphones, on some police buildings, on websites, etc.
22:29:34 <wob_jonas> (And from phonebooks, for old people like me.)
22:29:43 <wob_jonas> I don't know if there's a song for them. Maybe there should be.
22:29:56 <wob_jonas> There are probably instruction videos.
22:30:34 <wob_jonas> I think I've seen signs advertizing the emergency numbers in other public places too, often together with other useful information about emergency procedures..
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22:31:46 <wob_jonas> Like, signs that say that if there's a fire in this building, call some number it gives which is the phone number of the maintainer for that public building or call 112; the sign also sometimes tells you what information you should report.
22:33:30 <FireFly> I don't know if it's written on emergency vehicles here; what payphones?; I don't think it's writen on police buildings either
22:33:35 <FireFly> at least not particularly prominenty
22:33:48 <FireFly> Agree about emergency signs though
22:34:25 <FireFly> Like the ones in public buildings pointing out where emergency exits are and what way to take and such
22:34:41 <wob_jonas> FireFly: and websites too. like, see the two big numbers on http://www.police.hu/ ?
22:35:19 <FireFly> Sure, I'll give you websites too
22:35:45 <FireFly> https://polisen.se/ ← yeah, here too apparently. makes sense
22:35:52 <FireFly> not quite as prominent though
22:36:19 <wob_jonas> I also hope teachers teach these kinds of useful things in elementary schools and high schools, but I don't follow what schools do these days.
22:36:58 <wob_jonas> Obviously that doesn't help older adults when a lot of these information needs updated.
22:38:59 <wob_jonas> the majority of adults here have a driver's license, and unless you've got it many decades ago, a driver's license requires a course and exam on first aid procedures and other procedures to be followed in case of an accident, and that definitely requires knowing how to call the police and ambulance
22:39:42 <wob_jonas> There's also television. Many people still watch television, and television also tells about this sort of thing sometimes.
22:40:13 <wob_jonas> At least if you listen to the news programs, not only TV series.
22:40:17 <wob_jonas> So television and radio probably helps a lot too.
22:41:10 <hppavilion[1]> One of the annoying things about English is comparative adjectives
22:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> When I first saw the words used by Wiktionary, it was that (usually) -est is the Superlative (the most adjectival), which I knew
22:43:00 <hppavilion[1]> And that (usually) -er (used to say something more adjectivial, but not necessarily the most) is the... "comparative"?
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22:55:54 <oerjan> Kobalt: did you kill your master
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23:15:29 <HackEgo> MaKeLlItE: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN EfNeT Or dAlNeT.)
23:23:16 <HackEgo> lol stands for laughing out legends
23:24:17 <HackEgo> 2015-06-24 <oren_> le/rn lol/lol stands for laughing out legends
23:24:41 <oerjan> shachaf: it's probably out of your league
23:25:06 <shachaf> it's combining, i guess, "laughing out loud" and "league of legends"
23:25:17 <oerjan> yes. you expect there to be more to it?
23:25:29 <shachaf> i expect it to not exist if that's all there is to it
23:27:26 <shachaf> `mkx le/rm//rm "wisdom/$1"
23:28:00 <shachaf> `ln -sf ../bin/forget le/rm
23:28:01 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
23:28:05 <shachaf> `` ln -sf ../bin/forget le/rm
23:28:19 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/lol': No such file or directory \ Forget what?
23:35:31 -!- Moonythedwarf has joined.
23:35:38 <HackEgo> hax0r//hax0r (see ¯\(°_o)/¯)
23:35:50 <HackEgo> ais523//Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
23:36:08 <HackEgo> usb3//USB3 hosts are packaged with a full independent implementation of the older USB/USB2, going through separate pins in the same socket. It is similar to DVI, except you need a separate passive converter stub to plug VGA monitor to DVI socket, but you don't need one to plug a USB client to an USB3 host.
23:36:31 <HackEgo> 4chan//4chan is twice as loud as stereo.
23:36:36 <HackEgo> md5//MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens.
23:36:43 <HackEgo> 2600//2600 Hz is the tone made by Captain Crunch's whistle.
23:36:53 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
23:36:54 <HackEgo> footnote 8//Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
23:37:00 <HackEgo> hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2//hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2
23:37:06 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
23:37:12 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
23:37:15 <HackEgo> hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2//hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2
23:37:25 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
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23:38:20 <shachaf> Not just right now but in general.
23:38:22 * oerjan wonders if that 905 is meaningless or not
23:38:54 <HackEgo> 2015-11-23 <oerjan> learn 1337 15 50 905
23:39:04 <oerjan> i was a bit surprised that it got through all digits without repeating a wisdom
23:39:32 <oerjan> shachaf: i suppose we'll never know, then.
23:40:03 <HackEgo> Effilry is eemnoos how ahs got it all deorst otu.
23:40:34 <fizzie> I find that "cat: : No such file or directory \ //" behavior on error a little... less polished. Needs more PE.
23:41:21 <fizzie> shachaf: Product excellence.
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23:42:24 <HackEgo> <izabera> ` echo \'f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); { echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; } | rnooodl\' > bin/wisdom \ <izabera> ` echo \'f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//" | rnooodl; rnooodl < "$f"\' > bin/wisdom \ <izabera> ` echo \'f=$(find wisdom -
23:42:32 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to have dropped out of a spiel I was in the middle of
23:43:00 <oerjan> comparative adjectives are the most bester
23:43:31 <hppavilion[1]> When I first saw the words used to describe relative adjectives used by wiktionary, I saw -est is for "superlative", which I knew- it is the most adjectivial thing
23:43:42 <hppavilion[1]> But then I saw -er is for "comparative", which I'd never heard
23:44:05 <oerjan> i think that's just your problem hth
23:44:35 <hppavilion[1]> And it bugged me at first because if -er- which is for a more, but not necessarily the most, adjectivial thing- what is for a less adjectivial thing? The word "comparative" applies to any relative difference, not just increase
23:44:38 <oerjan> positive, comparative, superlative are the three used in english.
23:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> And then it hit me, something I'd missed my whole life: English doesn't /have/ a way to say "less"
23:45:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well it's the default form so rarely noted specifically.
23:45:21 <hppavilion[1]> Sure, you can use antonyms ('bigger/smaller'), but that just doesn't feel right any more
23:46:18 <hppavilion[1]> Especially because for more obscure adjectives, their properest antonym might not be available- so you'd have to use a propere... shit. See? Do you see the problem?
23:46:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i haven't yet learned of any language which has an inflection for "less", as opposed to using an auxiliary word. but there's probably some.
23:47:20 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/{/if [ -n "$f" ]; then/;s/} |/else echo "that'\''s not wise"; fi |/' bin/wisdom
23:47:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: but it isn't. we've probably inherited this mess from PIE.
23:48:13 <HackEgo> forty//forty means "in a fort-like manner"
23:48:22 <fizzie> That's at least a little better.
23:48:25 <HackEgo> tanebventory//The Tanebventory is big. Really big. For one thing, it contains a Hilbert hotel.
23:48:28 <hppavilion[1]> You can say "Your house is big" and "this cavern is big", but are they /equally/ big?
23:48:41 -!- hydraz has changed nick to hydPaz.
23:48:46 <HackEgo> tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
23:48:57 <HackEgo> people who taneb is not//elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
23:48:59 <oerjan> `sled bin/wisdom//s/that/That/;s/wise/wise./
23:49:01 <HackEgo> bin/wisdom//f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooodl
23:49:51 <shachaf> `` rgrep -li really wisdom
23:49:58 <HackEgo> wisdom/zygohistomorphic prepromorphism \ wisdom/piet \ wisdom/oklopol \ wisdom/tanebventory \ wisdom/god's number \ wisdom/vorpal \ wisdom/inory
23:50:12 <HackEgo> God's number is the maximum number of moves a Rubik's cube can require to solve. It is equal to 20. No, really. Look it up.
23:50:25 <HackEgo> Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones.
23:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh, what the hell. We need ALL the equalities and inequalities)
23:50:53 <oerjan> actually come to think of it, i don't know any language inflections for comparison that aren't the indo-european ones.
23:51:14 <izalove> i think most people either know what god's number is, or expect quarter turn metrics
23:51:21 <izalove> in which case god's number is 24
23:51:22 <oerjan> ...scratch that, i know hungarian. which afaik also has 3 levels.
23:51:48 <Moonythedwarf> thats not vorpal, this is vorpal: https://github.com/dthree/vorpal
23:51:54 <oerjan> shachaf: well the affixes for comparison, anyway.
23:52:16 <HackEgo> Your mysterious evil overlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
23:52:18 <izalove> shachaf: quarter turn metrics
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23:52:43 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#overlord kommisjonær#hungarian oerlord#
23:52:45 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
23:53:37 <fizzie> oerjan: There's the "-ish" adjectival inflection, that's a little like "less". Big, bigger, biggest -- but just moderately biggish.
23:54:23 <shachaf> Well, of course there are diminutives and things.
23:54:29 <shachaf> But those aren't used for comparison.
23:55:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway as for using antonyms, did you know russian has an entire inflection category (verb aspect) that is _always_ formed by changing to a distinct verb? and although it's often done with some prefix, it's not predictable which one.
23:59:21 <hppavilion[1]> ("x is adj-er than y" is x > y; "x is the adj-est X" is max(X) = x; additional inflections must be added for: x < y; min(X) = x; x ≤ y; x ≥ y x ≪ y; x ≫ y; x = y; x ≠ y; x ≈ y; x ≉ y; x ≡ y; x := y; x ≟ y ("x isn't even related to y what the hell are you talking about"))
00:03:49 <fizzie> Heh, there's a book (Bobaljik (2012), Universals in comparative morphology: suppletion, superlatives, and the structure or words) which (according to this quotation) claims that "no language has a synthetic comparative of inferiority", calling that the "lesslessness" generalization.
00:03:59 <fizzie> "This generalization is empirically the strongest of all the generalizations considered in this book. In none of the more than 300 languages examined for this study did anything remotely resembling a counterexample appear."
00:04:25 <oerjan> ah. sorry hppavilion[1] :P
00:04:33 <oerjan> THE UNIVERSE IS AGAINST YoU
00:05:21 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> ([engage reductio ad absurdum] While we're at it, we also need notations for: AM(X) = x; GM(X) = x; HM(X) = x; QM(X) = x. For all the inflections for f(X) = x, we need variants that replace = with >, <, ≤, ≥, ≪, ≫, ≠, ≈, ≉, ≡, :=, and ≟, and to express when x is within various deviations (including standard deviation, mean absolute deviation, and others) of f(X))
00:07:23 <izalove> "You don't have an app that can open this file (.c). Try searching Google Play for one that can. [cancel] [search]" what the actual fuck
00:07:39 <izalove> in the 70s, they didn't have problems to open fucking plain text ascii files
00:07:49 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: my fucking phone
00:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> Well it's probably because phones aren't meant for code
00:08:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Really, if you have a plain ascii editor at all you can probably coerce your phone to open the .c with that)
00:08:49 <izalove> i need to install an editor for plain text files
00:08:57 <izalove> that can send sms and email
00:09:02 <oerjan> we're living in the lowest common denominator.
00:09:08 <izalove> it already has plenty of text editing features
00:09:08 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, I forgot median(X) = x and mode(X) = x (and variants for =)
00:10:52 <oerjan> i was going to suggest harmonic mean but is that HM above
00:11:05 * oerjan wasn't getting that notation at the time
00:12:52 <izalove> what's your favorite text editor for android?
00:13:49 <izalove> i don't even know which features i need but i'd appreciate monospaced fonts
00:14:30 <hppavilion[1]> Not to mention WAM(X), TruncM(X), MR(X), TriM(X), etc
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00:14:41 <hppavilion[1]> (I've seen other weird ones like geometric-harmonic mean
00:15:47 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit).
00:16:45 <hppavilion[1]> (I've seen other weird ones like geometric-harmonic mean which is probably distinct from harmonic-geometric mean for some reason)
00:17:43 <zzo38> Sword of Legend {3} Legendary Artifact - Equipment ;; Equipped creature gets +1/+1 and is legendary. ;; {2}, {T}: Attach ~ to target legendary creature. That creature gains bands with other legendary creatures until end of turn. Activate this ability only if there are no other permanents with the same name as that creature. ;; Equip {2}
00:27:05 <izalove> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fr.xgouchet.texteditor 1. can edit text 2. ad free
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00:29:37 <izalove> my standards for text editors quality are a lot lower on phones
00:29:38 <fizzie> I've used one, but I forgot its name. I don't think I could give a very informative recommendation based on a sample size of N=1 anyway.
00:29:54 <fizzie> You could just install Emacs on it.
00:30:09 <izalove> i don't even know how to emacs on desktop
00:30:17 <fizzie> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zielm.emacs "If Emacs segfaults try changing font size. This is going to be fixed." The description starts well.
00:34:59 <izalove> bah whatever, i'll keep the one i just installed
00:35:21 <izalove> i'm not gonna program on this thing anyway
00:35:52 <wob_jonas> oerjan: technically, hungarian has four levels for adjective inflection, but the fourth is very rare
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00:36:07 <oerjan> wob_jonas: oh, what's that?
00:37:00 -!- Moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:37:30 <wob_jonas> oerjan: the fourth uses the circumfix "legesleg-...-bb" and has similar meaning as the superlative (which uses the circumfix "leg-...-bb") but used when you are very emphatic about the claim
00:38:36 <oerjan> legeslegjóbb inflection
00:40:42 <wob_jonas> but it's so rare that in primary school classes they usually just teach students that there are three degrees of adjectives, not four
00:54:31 <wob_jonas> Wow. A search box on a website that doesn't let me search for a list of words if the whole thing is more than 20 characters long. Crazy stuff. More words or longer words just make searches easier for the server, and 20 characters is a very low limit in practice.
00:56:21 <izalove> more words make it easier if you search for a and b and c and d
00:56:37 <oerjan> at least it allows you to list words. in theory.
00:58:54 <wob_jonas> for the record, this search form is http://www.munkaugyiforum.hu/kereses
01:00:24 <wob_jonas> it is otherwise not a bad webpage really\
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01:11:47 <hppavilion[1]> You know, there is a holiday called "Satan Worship Day", but it's always on the fifth Monday in November
01:12:24 <zzo38> See if editing it in the inspector or whatever will make it accept more than twenty.
01:12:40 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: uh? november can have 5 mondays
01:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: I did, but then I lernd2program and am now constantly vigilant for off-by-one errors
01:13:38 <HackEgo> off-by-2 error? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:13:45 <HackEgo> off-by-two error? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:14:35 <HackEgo> off by two//An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction.
01:14:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think "That's not wise" is the empty set of wisdom results
01:14:43 <izalove> HackEgo: november 2015 had 5 mondays
01:14:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i know, fizzie just added that
01:14:47 <hppavilion[1]> If Nov 1 is Monday (best-case scenario), then 7 days later (Nov 8) is monday
01:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> 15 is monday 3, 22 is monday 4, and... 29 is monday 5
01:15:08 <HackEgo> November 2015 \ Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa \ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 \ 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 \ 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 \ 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 \ 29 30
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01:15:34 <izalove> that's not even interesting
01:15:47 <zzo38> It won't display so well on HackEgo; you can execute cal on your own computer though (if you have Linux, BSD, or Macintosh)
01:16:00 <hppavilion[1]> (In other news, in the BCS for 5th Monday, Satan Day is my birthday)
01:16:03 <zzo38> (If you have Windows then it is more difficult)
01:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I have windows and it wasn't difficult at all
01:18:13 <oerjan> well windows has its own calendar program
01:19:42 <oerjan> it was a bit clicky getting to nov 2015 though.
01:19:52 <oerjan> at least on first try.
01:21:12 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I'm generally against PC, but I honestly don't know what I think about "Happy holidays" and "Season's greetings". Not just that I don't dislike them for being too PC, but really I honestly prefer them )
01:21:56 <oerjan> and i cannot get to before 1917.
01:22:33 <zzo38> I myself don't care and hope they don't all say same things. However, "Season's greetings" isn't the words that makes much sense to me in such context, I think.
01:23:40 <hppavilion[1]> (You know what? "Happy Holidays" is better. It's just better.)
01:23:47 <izalove> posix cal can go up to 9999
01:24:39 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, it is better than seaon greetings, at least.
01:25:24 <izalove> gnu cal can go up to 2147483646
01:25:38 <hppavilion[1]> I accidentally asked cal for year 11, and it gave me it
01:26:07 <zzo38> Yes, it can do that.
01:26:22 <hppavilion[1]> (In contexts where you can assume a predominantly Christian audience- e.g. in an actual Church- "Merry Christmas" seems appropriate, but the same way Jews can say... whatever Jews say on their Winter Solstice Holiday in Jewy contexts and Muslims can say their whatever (is it Rashashama[sp] around then?) in Muslimy contexts)
01:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, Xmas is stupid. Clearly we should use Ksmas.)
01:29:06 <zzo38> "Xmas" is an abbreviation for "Christmas"; use it when you are low on space to write the letters. The "X" is an old abbreviation for "Christ".
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01:30:00 <oerjan> this other cal is from util-linux goes up to cal 12 2147483646
01:30:06 <zzo38> I think "Merry Christmas" is OK; it isn't only Christian anymore, anywys. Is good if you are Christian or not. And then, other is Yule, which is the proper Winter Solstice holiday; Christmas is a few days later. It is still good.
01:30:32 <zzo38> December 25 (Christmas Day) is a national holiday in Canada, not just a religious holiday, anyways.
01:30:41 <hppavilion[1]> (I suppose Antichrist day would be around the summer solstice...)
01:30:45 <oerjan> > showHex 2147483646 ""
01:31:36 <zzo38> Maybe, if there is such things as "Antichrist day" which I don't think so
01:32:09 <zzo38> (But, you could make it up)
01:35:01 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Wait, right, it's not "Antichrist day"; it's "Antichristblakmas"
01:36:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't remember muslims having a specific winter holiday. the muslim calendar isn't solar so the main events shift around the year. however some will celebrate ne[wv]r[ou]z around spring equinox (it's not really a muslim holiday).
01:37:18 <izalove> https://www.livecoding.tv/
01:41:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i missed several spellings
01:42:15 <oerjan> "Merriam-Webster (2006) recognizes only the spelling "Nauruz" (and a contestant in the final session of the 2006 Scripps National Spelling Bee in the United States, Allion Salvador, was disqualified on that basis)."
01:42:46 <oerjan> i'm reading this on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz hth
01:43:42 <hppavilion[1]> So probably n[ae][uvw]r[ou][zs]? (the [zs] is just a guess because, let's be honest, it's definitely an option)
01:44:40 <hppavilion[1]> ...woooow. Someone was disqualified in the Scripps National Spelling Bee for spelling "Nauruz" wrong. Because the spelling they used was different
01:45:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: *cough*
01:46:03 <oerjan> oh there's a longer list of spellings in the infobox.
01:49:42 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: If Antichrist Day is around the summer solstice, than Midsummer (or the Feast of Saint John) is Antichrist Day.
01:49:49 <pikhq> Therefore, Saint John is the Antichrist!
01:50:32 <oerjan> glad you sorted that out
01:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: No, Antichristblakmas is the /birth/ of the antichrist in the year 1 AHN
01:53:08 <pikhq> St John's feast day celebrates his birth.
01:53:18 <hppavilion[1]> Nothing to do with Saint John (whose feast is on 27 december)
01:53:41 <pikhq> Sorry. St John the Baptist's feast day.
01:53:51 <pikhq> Let's be specific.
01:55:12 <hppavilion[1]> It's actually on June 25, which is for Presentation of the Augsburg Confession
01:55:31 <hppavilion[1]> (at least, it is in the One True Denomination, which is Lutheranism)
01:57:02 <hppavilion[1]> ...so according to Lutheranism, Antichristblakmas coincides with the commemoration of their founding... OH MY GOD LUTHERANS ARE SATANISTS
02:18:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Is a moon of a dwarf planet considered a dwarf moon?)
02:22:43 <shachaf> pikhq: What do you think of CA Labor Code §2870?
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02:49:57 <pikhq> Except when certain companies go "yeah, but we're in literally every business so fuck you"
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02:59:16 <shachaf> But imagine that in other states you don't even get that?
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04:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. it predicts that a candidate everyone hates- let's call him Rumpt- has a 40% chance of winning. Someone shares it, all the people who are against Rumpt and in favor of a marginally less objectionable candidate- let's call her (as she could be the first female president) "Billary"- freak out and resolve to vote when they weren't planning on it
04:00:48 <hppavilion[1]> They participate in polls, thus changing 538's value
04:01:18 <shachaf> poles usually can't vote in us elections
04:01:24 <shachaf> unless they're polish-american, of course
04:02:13 <shachaf> but even they are discriminated against
04:02:16 <shachaf> they have to pay the pole tax
04:02:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, the poles are being participated /in/, not voting themselves
04:02:48 <hppavilion[1]> No, Pole taxes are only for Alaskans and people born in may
04:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> Lo, have I outpunned even the great shachaf emself?
04:11:51 <oerjan> where is boily when you need him.
04:13:38 <oerjan> good first sentence in today's wikipedia featured article blurb
04:15:02 <shachaf> what about the first sentence in today's featured esolang blurb
04:16:08 <shachaf> Who was that famous art forger?
04:16:37 <shachaf> Oh, no, he forged text maybe?
04:17:46 <shachaf> The one whose forgeries were so famous that they were in demand, so he forged his own forgeries to sell them.
04:19:21 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_Shakespeare_forgeries
04:20:51 <oerjan> the one forgerer i remember reading about is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_van_Meegeren
04:26:50 <shachaf> one who does forgery, i guess
04:29:24 <shachaf> oerjan: it would be unambiguous if you wrote -re hth
04:29:41 <shachaf> oerjan: and then you would eeven teach people about adjunctions
04:29:45 <hppavilion[1]> In the section on what you can't discriminate against, it doesn't mention gender identity
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04:30:18 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Nope, I'm just becoming grumpy.
04:30:50 <hppavilion[1]> Well I'm pondering locating the Superintendent's email and sending them a polite notification that they might want to fix that
04:31:41 <pikhq> It might not work, but a polite email is likely to effect change with minimal fuss. Unless they're transphobic, which is not implausible.
04:31:46 <oerjan> just make it identity alone and be done with it.
04:32:33 <oerjan> . o O ( is a transphobic someone who is born without phobias but wants to change it... )
04:32:51 <\oren\> something insane is going down on reddit
04:33:11 <oerjan> \oren\: so nothing out of the ordinary?
04:33:32 <\oren\> the main subreddit for the trump campaign was compromised to some sort of monetary scam
04:34:17 <\oren\> then when people reacted badly, the mods started banning people and deleting posts that talked about it
04:34:29 <shachaf> but why would you care about reddit
04:35:00 <\oren\> and they unmodded at least 50 people to prevent them from stopping it
04:37:58 <\oren\> very interesting to observe a popular revolt like this
04:40:14 <oerjan> well the oldest mod has ultimate power unless admins intervene, which they almost never do last i heard
04:40:55 <oerjan> of course if this blows up _enough_, they might have to reconsider that.
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04:41:46 <oerjan> i remember replacing the disappeared mod of /r/physics took ages.
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04:44:54 <\oren\> https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/535jkk/about_what_happened_tonight/ <- this is the damage control post after they removed the disaster posts
04:49:13 <oerjan> ok so just extremely bad judgement, not a hostile takeover. whatever.
04:50:19 <\oren\> well, I dunno. the site they were promoting: www.nimbleamerica.com looks shady as hell
04:50:58 <\oren\> looks to me like a hostile takeover but for monetary rather than political gain
04:51:03 <oerjan> it would of course be funny if the top mods of that subreddit started it just to troll everyone
04:52:09 <\oren\> the degree of crazy crap on reddit is why I stopped posting on any subreddits and relurked
04:53:23 <\oren\> somehow the reddit system seems wired to produce hilarious, trainwreck drama
04:54:03 <pikhq> Well yeah, it gives a lot of people little fiefdoms with near-absolute power within.
04:54:24 <pikhq> That not *every* subreddit is a trainwreck is a testament to the capability of humans to be good.
04:54:53 <pikhq> ... That some subreddits are spectacular trainwrecks, of course, is just evidence that "capable" does not imply "will".
04:56:41 <\oren\> on the other hand one of the reasons I still lurk is in hope of seeing crazy trainwreck drama
04:56:57 <\oren\> so some good comes of the evil
05:05:29 <\oren\> drama is funny when you're not at all involved
05:12:55 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: They have a doctorate, so she probably isn't an asshole
05:13:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It is, but just "gender", no mention of whether it conforms (so you could, for example, harass them by making a point of treating them as masculine- not just like a slip-of-the-tongue thing, but REALLY making a point out of it)
05:13:59 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: It's surprisingly reasonable as far as things-done-by-me go
05:14:24 <shachaf> @ask conal For computing [x^i | i <- [0..n]] (which you used for DFT), can you do better than O(n) work and O(log n) depth using repeated squaring?
05:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> cis is "is gender G outside and says they're gender G", trans is "is gender G outside but says's they're gender H"
05:23:15 <pikhq> Because "cis-" is the opposite of "trans-".
05:25:59 <\oren\> cis literally means, on this side of
05:27:04 <\oren\> for example, the province of Gallia in roman empire was divided into cisalpine gaul, on the same side of the alps as italy, and transalpine gaul, on the opposite side
05:29:19 <\oren\> so transgender would mean that someone's gender is on the opposite side from their sex
05:31:53 <zzo38> What happen if someone says they are actually more than one gender or not at all?
05:32:03 <\oren\> another example is cis and trans isomers of chemicals like dichloroethene
05:33:15 <pikhq> zzo38: The first would be something non-binary or gender fluid, the latter is agender.
05:33:36 <pikhq> Or bigender or pangender for the first...
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05:54:27 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I think someone who identifies as agender would be classified as transgender, but in the flimsy sense, because their gender is like an atheist's religion
05:55:20 <hppavilion[1]> New universally-acceptable greeting: "Salutations, fellow lifeform"
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05:59:26 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU CALL ME ALIVE
06:13:39 <hppavilion[1]> (below which is empires AKA domains, then kingdoms and it's Katy Perry from there)
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06:50:19 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, one of the recently captured FBI most wanteds had the same birthday as me
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07:00:43 <hppavilion[1]> (I think I know somebody for whom http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-02 would be perfectly reasonable)
07:04:41 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I wonder if there's a charity that I can donate to that exists for the soul purpose of rechariting my money to another charity so I don't have to figure out what it is )
07:05:44 <pikhq> Optimal Charity* (donations to Optimal Charity are inherently suboptimal, we can only guarantee optimality given the assumption you give money to us instead of our donation targets directly)
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07:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> I'm honestly curious if https://xkcd.com/545/ has ever been tried
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07:58:10 <int-e> ah, beautiful. '[1050080.761768] Read-error on swap-device (254:1:3016)'
07:59:02 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Do astronauts have to be paid minimum wage for a 24/7 work week? )
08:03:43 <hppavilion[1]> (In fact, they would have to be paid minimum wage for 40 of those hours, PLUS 1.5* minimum wage for each additional hour)
08:17:10 <int-e> (CaC again. No important data was at risk at any time.)
08:23:46 <hppavilion[1]> It says that "And" and "Or" don't mean "And" and "Or" every time; they are treated, in each instance, either disjunctively or conjunctively in such a way that creates the broadest request possible
08:40:37 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I think astronauts are probably entitled to more given their substantial skills and their dangerous workplace.
08:41:04 <hppavilion[1]> But what if, like, it was Ted the Shitty Astronaut
08:41:14 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKFuXETZUsI so coooooool
08:41:21 <izalove> i love it i love it i can't wait
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08:41:34 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I get most of my Kerbals from rescue missions
08:42:20 <hppavilion[1]> Have you asked your Kerbal lawyers about the laws of the USK?
08:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Weird how there are no other Kerbals on the entirety of the pla- oh god. Is this why you're trying to get to space? To escape a dying world?)
08:44:46 <\oren\> update: the nimble america subreddit was hacked and destroyed in a counterattack
08:45:48 <\oren\> mod/user warfare continues to rage
08:54:35 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I wonder how long it is until we have computers that can write novels )
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08:59:39 <hppavilion[1]> I heard somebody at school today talking about how the new "iPhones" are blowing up while charging
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09:03:03 <\oren\> i thought it was samsung?
09:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> Because they don't realize that 80% of smartphones aren't iPhones
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09:12:46 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], they could just be mixed up
09:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: You don't seem to understand the stupidity of the people around me
09:15:37 <hppavilion[1]> In 30 years, Trump speeches will be mandatory viewing in college classrooms
09:16:02 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, classes about psychiatry, during the day when they talk about narcissism
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09:31:09 <\oren\> when will george w bush become recognized as the historic first he was
09:31:29 <\oren\> the first president to be mentally impaired
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10:20:28 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, we had earlier presidents, but they usually lost it after
10:20:40 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: how furry are you today?
10:20:55 <hppavilion[1]> I just heard Stephen Colbert say something funny about giraffes
10:21:15 <hppavilion[1]> (Zebrataurs would, of course, have to be a thing. They probably are already.)
10:21:59 <hppavilion[1]> The closest extant relative to the Centaur is the Bonobotaur
10:22:37 <izalove> several thousands results for zebrataur on google
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17:08:08 <zzo38> Do you like this? "Target opponent chooses artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, or sorcery. Search your library for a card of that type, reveal it, put it into your hand, and then shuffle your library."
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18:37:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Sounds interesting.
18:40:33 <zzo38> I don't know. What amount would you think?
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19:31:37 <zzo38> Card I made up called "Zeux Agem" now has "bands with other creatures that have flying and power less than 3".
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21:08:01 <myname> i have basic brewing in my df-like \o/
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21:20:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Perhaps the word "Schadenfreude"- which is originally the German word for pleasure at other people's misfortune ("harm-joy") but has since been adopted into fringe English- should be englicized in spelling to make it less confusing for native english speakers)
21:22:45 <hppavilion[1]> ("inenvy"- inverse envy- would also be an acceptable adaptation that doesn't require remembering how to German it)
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21:30:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: a failing swap device... ouch. did you reboot and discontinue using it for swap?
21:30:52 <wob_jonas> int-e: also, what sort of device is it? spinning hard disk, solid state disk, network?
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22:12:55 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I'm about 87% sure that was CloudAtCost hardware at work again.
22:14:21 <fizzie> int-e: The esolangs.org VPS has stopped doing those "BUG: soft lockup - CPU#1 stuck for 21s" messages, maybe that's why HackEgo has anecdotally felt a bit speedier recently.
22:14:56 <fizzie> (Oh, CaC was even confirmed, I missed that line.)
22:22:35 <fizzie> A VPS provider with a one-time-fee model.
22:22:36 <wob_jonas> What material of oven mitts (gloves for heat insulation) do you use? Fabric, silicone, or dragon skin?
22:23:00 <fizzie> Fabric; somehow I just can't trust silicone.
22:24:15 <wob_jonas> I currently use silicone ones, but I'm considering to buying ordinary fabric ones.
22:24:31 <zzo38> I use fabric oven mitts because that works good and it is what I have.
22:24:46 <zzo38> :I wrote how I think a very simple API to make JavaScript addon in C might ought to be: http://sprunge.us/ZXPA Hopefully with help it can be made up in a reasonable way. Do you like this?
22:24:50 <shachaf> I have no oven mitts, but I should.
22:25:02 <shachaf> I typically use some sort of fabric as a substitute, though.
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22:25:42 <sparr> I'm sitting here at the Roguelike Celebration (200 person conference in San Francisco) and am inspired to get esolang folks and code golfers together for a conference
22:26:07 <wob_jonas> sparr: a roguelike celebration? sounds nice
22:26:20 <sparr> yeah, it's fun. roguelike devs and designers, lots of players
22:26:21 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Until you have to start eating corpses to stay in character.
22:26:42 <wob_jonas> sparr: how would that work? somehow more than half of the esolang people are in Europe
22:26:55 <wob_jonas> fizzie: you can eat vegetarian corpses, that is, dead plants
22:27:04 <sparr> wob_jonas: well, if it worked, maybe there could be other such events around the world. that's a big goal, though
22:27:20 <sparr> it all starts with 50 people getting together somewhere for the first time
22:27:42 <fizzie> I don't think we've managed to get even 5 people on this channel together at any one time.
22:27:49 <sparr> I'd like to fix that :)
22:27:59 <sparr> there are more esolang users at this roguelike conference than anywhere else I've been
22:28:19 <sparr> I met someone who used my language, and found it without having known me before! (huge ego boost)
22:29:02 <fizzie> atehwa once hosted an esolang seminar at their university, I think. (I may be mixing up who it was.)
22:29:02 <zzo38> I would hope to write a roguelike game in JavaScript. I can write the terminal interfacing library and possibly involving to call stty as an external program to make the terminal acting properly for this purpose. Possibly even multi-players mode can be added on to
22:30:32 <zzo38> Writing the serialization is the other thing to do, but I think I have the reasonable ideas about how to do that.
22:33:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the hard part of roguelike is the game design (figuring out the rules so that you get a good game) and interface design
22:35:39 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, that is some of it too, and much of that stuff I have not thought of yet. I can think of much of the user interface stuff already though; actually even to have a configuration file in JavaScript that can be used to customize the user interface.
22:36:27 <zzo38> (Using such scripts can be used to add macros, to filter messages, etc.)
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22:45:57 <hppavilion[1]> (It wants me to look at the graph and guess what x the extrema are at)
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22:55:06 <hppavilion[2]> God I hate it when people invent punctuation, copyright it, and say it's for general use
22:55:12 <hppavilion[2]> If it was for general use, it wouldn't be copyrighted
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22:57:24 <zzo38> I agree with you; to copyright punctuation doesn't make sense.
22:58:10 <zzo38> About this still I am unsure what mana cost or type: "Target opponent chooses artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, or sorcery. Search your library for a card of that type, reveal it, put it into your hand, and then shuffle your library." Do you have any better ideas perhaps?
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23:06:51 <ais523> zzo38: does it omit planeswalker for a reason?
23:07:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's so you don't have to build a deck that even has a planeswalker that helps your combo. it's hard enough with those six types.
23:07:44 <ais523> I can see why it omits scheme and plane and vanguard and conspiracy, though
23:07:49 <zzo38> It is for the reason wob_jonas mentioned.
23:07:51 <wob_jonas> (it would be even worse with tribal)
23:08:10 <ais523> I think zzo38's ability would work best as a triggered ability on a creature or enchantment
23:08:22 <ais523> if I place it on a sorcery, it's too weak even at B (which is the correct color)
23:10:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, why is B the correct color? isn't this a blue ability like that of Gifts Ungiven?
23:10:35 <zzo38> But I did think of another thing too; if it could have a kicker that allows you to reject your opponent's first choice and force them to pick a different type instead; it only works once though.
23:11:03 <ais523> wob_jonas: gifts ungiven is weird, you can make a case for basically anything to be U
23:11:14 <ais523> but arguably gifts ungiven is B too
23:11:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: well ok, it's not really out of place in black either
23:11:39 <ais523> (compare to fact or fiction, which is definitely blue)
23:11:48 <wob_jonas> but I don't really like this ability at all, anywhere. it needs to be rethought.
23:13:08 <zzo38> Another alternative to a triggered ability would be an activated ability.
23:13:24 <ais523> if it was a tap ability that might work
23:13:40 <ais523> spammable abilities that dig through your library tend to be hard to balance though
23:13:56 <wob_jonas> eww no. that would cause you to search and shuffle every turn, or more often. can't be enjoyable.
23:14:04 <zzo38> Yes; its cost can have other stuff too though other than just tap
23:14:52 <ais523> yes, I just meant including tap, not exclusively tap
23:14:53 <zzo38> Such as, mana, discarding, sacrificing, removing counters, etc
23:15:26 <ais523> huh, I just realised that following the color pie rules it's also legal in green (although that wouldn't be most people's first choice)
23:15:35 <wob_jonas> zzo38: even so. if you use an activated ability, unless it's a sacrifice this or when this dies ability, it will likely cause the ability to be used repeatedly. a magpie trigger (whenever this deals combat damage to an opponent) would be better.
23:15:43 <ais523> green can search for a creature or land (or subset of that), and the opponent can always choose to make it search for that rather than something else
23:15:51 <ais523> so the ability's strictly worse than something green can do
23:16:01 <wob_jonas> the advantage of the magpie trigger is that it's more interactive, most decks the opponent plays will have a way to fight it.
23:17:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, how easily can green search for an arbitrary creature (as opposed to some more restricted set)?
23:17:12 <wob_jonas> and especially for a creature and land
23:17:18 <zzo38> Other modification to what I wrote also might be done, maybe
23:17:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's fairly /expensive/ to search for a creature unrestricted, but not out of pie
23:17:36 <ais523> tooth and nail is the most dramatic example
23:18:07 <wob_jonas> oh it's not as expensive as tooth and nail I think
23:18:41 <wob_jonas> tooth and nail is expensive because it can both search and piper expensive creatures, and those two together are very dangerous
23:19:02 <wob_jonas> green used to have the piper ability back when expensive creatures without mana costs didn't yet exist
23:19:18 <wob_jonas> it even had a piper specifically for elves I think, when all elves were tiny
23:19:34 <hppavilion[2]> (If there is none, I've made up "Inggere" and will now use it forever)
23:19:53 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
23:20:52 <ais523> wob_jonas: I can't think offhand of a creature with no mana cost that's powerful to reanimate
23:21:13 <ais523> if it were green, you could do it with Green Sun's Zenith (which is sufficiently powerful that it's banned in Modern)
23:21:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm not thinking of no mana cost
23:21:26 <ais523> Dryad Arbor has no mana cost but it's not exactly the most broken thing to cheat into play
23:21:44 <wob_jonas> but pipering creatures with large mana cost for a fixed cost
23:22:00 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
23:22:37 <callforjudgement> if you believe Un-sets to be authorities on colour pie, there's always Timmy
23:23:05 <wob_jonas> and for un-sets, isn't Ach, Hans a better example?
23:25:06 <wob_jonas> Skyshroud Poucher lets you put any elf into play each of your turns starting from your fourth
23:26:01 <wob_jonas> no, it lets you search your library and put directly to play
23:26:09 <HackEgo> Skyshroud Poacher \ 2GG \ Creature -- Human Rebel \ 2/2 \ {3}, {T}: Search your library for an Elf permanent card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library. \ NE-R
23:27:08 <wob_jonas> I think all elves were tiny when that got printed, they didn't even have the 6/6 Wirewood Guardian yet
23:28:36 <zzo38> What if you will make mine different such as: Opponent selects two of those six types, and then you can search your library for one of each.
23:28:41 <wob_jonas> callforjudgement: yes, the problem is more that you can't protect it, you won't even have mana to cast your Vines of Vastwood on it
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23:30:55 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I wonder, would it read better without an explicit list, like "An opponent chooses four card types. Search your library for a card that doesn't have any of those types, and put it into your hand, then shuffle your library."
23:31:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: what if you don't make it a tutor, but instead some cheap repeatable effect where the opponent chooses types, you reveal the top card of your library, put it at the bottom of the library if the opponent guesses right, to your hand if he guesses wrong?
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23:34:49 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Maybe it might be better if opponent just chooses four card types, I suppose.
23:35:23 <zzo38> Like you said, then you can search for a card that does not have any of those types.
23:35:41 <zzo38> (None of the cards in a library will have the types vanguard, scheme, plane, or conspiracy.)
23:35:54 <zzo38> (And therefore you may then take any card.)
23:35:58 <wob_jonas> is vanguard even a real card type these days?
23:36:36 <callforjudgement> there are a few things that appear in card type position but aren't card types
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23:36:50 <callforjudgement> (arguably Token is in supertype position, it's kind-of hard to tell)
23:36:56 <zzo38> Those aren't card types; I call them "pseudotypes".
23:37:31 <callforjudgement> well, they're the equivalent of Card, rather than Creature or Legendary
23:37:39 <callforjudgement> maybe they're hypertypes, given that they're more general than supertypes
23:37:54 <zzo38> Yes, in that case they are that kind of thing; "pseudotypes" is something more general.
23:38:33 <wob_jonas> aren't emblems a new sort of object these days, besides cards in a zone, activated or triggered abilities on the stack, tokens in a zone, copies of spells?
23:38:42 <zzo38> (A pseudotype is never part of an object's text and is never a characteristic.)
23:38:58 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, they are a new sort of object.
23:39:22 <zzo38> Other sorts of objects are copies of cards, copies of spells, tokens, abilities on stack, like you say.
23:40:24 <callforjudgement> wob_jonas: you can copy an exiled card, although I think the copy immediately dissipates if you don't immediately cast it
23:40:31 <wob_jonas> aren't there only copies of spells (which usually are in exile or on the stack), tokens (which may be created as copies of a permanent), permanents that currently copy a permanent?
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23:40:54 <wob_jonas> and copies of spells work completely differently from copying a permanent, they're just accidentally named the same, as far as I can see
23:41:08 <zzo38> In some cases copies of cards are created and then cast (such as cipher).
23:41:17 <callforjudgement> wob_jonas: there's a template along the lines of "you may copy the exiled instant, and may cast the copy"
23:41:30 <HackEgo> Trait Doctoring \ U \ Sorcery \ Change the text of target permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another or one basic land type with another until end of turn. \ Cipher (Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control. Whenever that creature deals combat damage to a player, its controller may cast a copy of
23:41:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's why a copy of a spell can be in exile.
23:41:39 <zzo38> (If the copy is not cast, it ceases to exist.)
23:41:45 <HackEgo> Hidden Strings \ 1U \ Sorcery \ You may tap or untap target permanent, then you may tap or untap another target permanent. \ Cipher (Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control. Whenever that creature deals combat damage to a player, its controller may cast a copy of the encoded card without paying its mana cost.) \ DGM-C
23:42:03 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It isn't a spell while it is anywhere other than the stack.
23:42:25 <wob_jonas> HackEgo's database should be updated with Eldritch Moon by the way
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23:42:54 <wob_jonas> cfj: no, it's still a copy of a spell, because the template it's made from is a copy. it's just that that copy-of-a-spell is not currently a spell
23:43:49 <callforjudgement> and the stack has nothing but a triggered ability that's trying to resolve
23:44:01 <wob_jonas> callforjudgement: oh... um, I don't know how that works then
23:44:15 <callforjudgement> wob_jonas: it makes a copy of Hidden Strings in exile, then allows you to cast the copy
23:44:21 <wob_jonas> I guess I don't understand how all those rules work
23:44:40 <callforjudgement> but it's a copy-of-a-card, which can be cast, and which disappears upon resolution or being countered
23:44:51 <callforjudgement> sort of like a copy-of-a-spell except that it isn't a spell that was copied
23:45:10 <callforjudgement> (compare to token-copy-of-a-permanent, which is a token in addition to being a copy)
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00:15:48 <shachaf> I made a good pun about De Morgan's laws once.
00:15:56 <shachaf> Unfortunately it's confidential.
00:16:22 <oerjan> just tell us the dual pun, it should only be nfidential
00:16:49 <shachaf> Unfortunately the best I can get is a contranfindential
00:16:52 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Things that are nfidential are mandatory knowledge; the fact that you don't know it is a crime
00:17:42 <shachaf> What is the origin of your nick?
00:18:49 <HackEgo> Avacyn's Judgment \ 1R \ Sorcery \ Madness {X}{R} (If you discard this card, discard it into exile. When you do, cast it for its madness cost or put it into your graveyard.) \ Avacyn's Judgment deals 2 damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures and/or players. If Avacyn's Judgment's madness cost was paid, it deals X damage di
00:18:53 <HackEgo> Radiant's Judgment \ 2W \ Instant \ Destroy target creature with power 4 or greater. \ Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ UL-C, VMA-C
00:18:56 <HackEgo> Iona's Judgment \ 4W \ Sorcery \ Exile target creature or enchantment. \ WWK-C
00:19:00 <HackEgo> Radiant's Judgment \ 2W \ Instant \ Destroy target creature with power 4 or greater. \ Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ UL-C, VMA-C
00:19:03 <callforjudgement> shachaf: http://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/rkeep/current_flr.txt : search for "991/17" to find the relevant part
00:19:04 <HackEgo> Trostani's Judgment \ 5W \ Instant \ Exile target creature, then populate. (Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of a creature token you control.) \ RTR-C
00:19:14 <HackEgo> Council's Judgment \ 1WW \ Sorcery \ Will of the council -- Starting with you, each player votes for a nonland permanent you don't control. Exile each permanent with the most votes or tied for most votes. \ CNS-R, VMA-R
00:19:26 <HackEgo> Call for Blood \ 4B \ Instant -- Arcane \ As an additional cost to cast Call for Blood, sacrifice a creature. \ Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn, where X is the sacrificed creature's power. \ BOK-C
00:19:33 <HackEgo> Day of Judgment \ 2WW \ Sorcery \ Destroy all creatures. \ ZEN-R, M11-R, M12-R
00:19:43 <shachaf> There's a Magic: The Gathering set called Judgment.
00:23:13 <callforjudgement> shachaf: actually the story is a bit more complex than the nomic term, although it's based on that
00:23:45 <shachaf> I don't know the story for any of your nicks, actually.
00:23:48 <callforjudgement> BlogNomic used to have a method of making anonymous calls for judgement, and they displayed with "CallForJudgment" (US spelling) as the username
00:24:11 <callforjudgement> I missed the US spelling though and added an extra e when I read it mentally
00:24:24 <shachaf> "judgment" is the US spelling?
00:24:30 <callforjudgement> when I started lurking the BlogNomic IRC channel (before I started playing), I decided I'd be anonymous
00:24:36 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think "ais523" is because "ais" are the initials of his real names or something
00:24:36 <oerjan> . o O ( now we just need to know what scarf is for )
00:24:58 <callforjudgement> wob_jonas: ais523 was an autogenerated username by a computer syste
00:25:09 <shachaf> http://blog.dictionary.com/judgement-vs-judgment/ says that the British spelling has no e
00:25:13 <callforjudgement> however I believe it was configured to use my initials as part of the name
00:25:36 <callforjudgement> shachaf: I believe it's "judgment" when talking about a legal judgment, in the UK
00:25:50 <callforjudgement> but "judgement" when talking about someone's judgement (as in, how good they are at making decisions)
00:26:02 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the spelling is compicated, I never follow it, there's some version without a "d" too (is that only French, or English too?), that's why I used a wildcard
00:26:22 <shachaf> There's also the version where you're talking about what the judge meant.
00:26:32 <myname> judgment doesn't make sense
00:34:17 <oerjan> the spelling in norwegian is simple hth: dom
00:34:51 <wob_jonas> oerjan: isn't that the black one, when judgement is the white one? or somethign
00:35:03 <HackEgo> Thraben Doomsayer \ 1WW \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 2/2 \ {T}: Put a 1/1 white Human creature token onto the battlefield. \ Fateful hour -- As long as you have 5 or less life, other creatures you control get +2/+2. \ DKA-R
00:35:10 <HackEgo> Crown of Doom \ 3 \ Artifact \ Whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalker you control, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn. \ {2}: Target player other than Crown of Doom's owner gains control of it. Activate this ability only during your turn. \ C14-R
00:35:14 <HackEgo> Eye of Doom \ 4 \ Artifact \ When Eye of Doom enters the battlefield, each player chooses a nonland permanent and puts a doom counter on it. \ {2}, {T}, Sacrifice Eye of Doom: Destroy each permanent with a doom counter on it. \ C13-R
00:35:26 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps you should learn to play magic: the gathering hth
00:35:38 <wob_jonas> `random-card doom$(?!.*\n.*artifact)
00:35:39 <HackEgo> Crackling Doom \ RWB \ Instant \ Crackling Doom deals 2 damage to each opponent. Each opponent sacrifices a creature with the greatest power among creatures he or she controls. \ KTK-R
00:35:48 <HackEgo> Glyph of Doom \ B \ Instant \ Choose target Wall creature. At this turn's next end of combat, destroy all creatures that were blocked by that creature this turn. \ LE-C
00:36:30 <HackEgo> Choice of Damnations \ 5B \ Sorcery -- Arcane \ Target opponent chooses a number. You may have that player lose that much life. If you don't, that player sacrifices all but that many permanents. \ SOK-R
00:36:41 <HackEgo> Damnation \ 2BB \ Sorcery \ Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated. \ PLC-R
00:41:07 <oerjan> `learn The Damnation was an evil empire of yore, until the dam no longer held and they got flooded.
00:41:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'damnation': The Damnation was an evil empire of yore, until the dam no longer held and they got flooded.
00:43:55 <hppavilion[2]> (Product is ×; n-ary product is ∏. n-ary coproduct is ∐; what is normal coproduct?)
00:45:42 <zzo38> If you like to learn rules of Magic: the Gathering cards, this is rules http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/ (this is an unofficial copy of the rules that includes hyperlinks)
00:46:18 <zzo38> And then you also have to learn the cards, too.
00:46:44 <HackEgo> [U+00D7 MULTIPLICATION SIGN]
00:46:44 <shachaf> You don't have to learn the cards.
00:46:53 <oerjan> `unicode ADDITION SIGN
00:47:26 <zzo38> Well, not all of the cards; only the ones in use. But unless they are very old cards, the current text is written on the cards themself.
00:47:29 <oerjan> `unicode [ADDITION SIGN]
00:47:32 <HackEgo> U+0000 <control> \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: � \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C
00:47:46 <shachaf> Why are you expecting there to be an ADDITION SIGN?
00:47:51 <HackEgo> U+002B PLUS SIGN \ UTF-8: 2b UTF-16BE: 002b Decimal: + \ + \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ES (European Number Separator) \ \ U+00B1 PLUS-MINUS SIGN \ UTF-8: c2 b1 UTF-16BE: 00b1 Decimal: ± \ ± \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ET (European Number Terminator) \ \ U+02D6 MODIFIER LETTER PLUS SIGN \ UTF-8: cb 96 UTF-16BE: 0
00:47:53 <zzo38> (Some very old cards are written very different than expecting of current rule)
00:48:04 <oerjan> shachaf: logic. oh hm.
00:51:28 * oerjan somehow cannot be bothered to look up the actual answer.
00:52:15 <oerjan> to hppavilion[2]'s question.
00:52:19 -!- dos has joined.
00:53:04 <HackEgo> dos: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:53:08 <oerjan> you just rejected part of what he said, despite it being clearly correct hth
00:53:09 -!- dos has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
00:53:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unwelcome: not found
00:54:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: we call that /kickban hth
00:54:15 <wob_jonas> hpp: because we have too many stupid welcome variants. including stupid ones I created.
00:54:29 <HackEgo> dos: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:54:30 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
00:54:31 <HackEgo> 2015-05-24 <oerjan> sed -i \'s/on irc.*/on EFnet or DALnet.)/\' wisdom/welcome \ 2014-05-29 <oerjan> sed -i \'s!wiki/Main_Page!!\' wisdom/welcome \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2013-11-01 <shachaf> sed -i \'s#http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page#<http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>#\' wisdom/welcome \ 2013-02-13 <ais52
00:54:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unrelcome: not found
00:54:46 <HackEgo> dos: Wälcåmä tå thä intärnatiånal hub for äsotäric programming language däsign and däplåyment! Får mårä infårmatiån, check out åur wiki: <http://äsålangs.årg/>. (Får thä åther kind åf esåtärica, try #esoteric ån ÄFnät år DALnet.)
00:55:19 <oerjan> `emoclew hppavilion[1]
00:55:20 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .</gro.sgnalose//:ptth> :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :]1[noilivapph
00:55:27 <oerjan> this is the closest hth
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00:55:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That works, but we're trying to unwelcome dos
00:55:53 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .</gro.sgnalose//:ptth> :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :sod
00:56:13 <HackEgo> rev: stdin: Invalid or incomplete multibyte or wide character
00:56:28 <wob_jonas> ``` wälcåmä dos | LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8 rev
00:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: (also, when it reversed it didn't flip the [ and ]. that's a problem imho)
00:56:30 <HackEgo> ).tänLAD ro tänFE no cirätåse# yrt ,acirätosä fo dnik rähtå äht råF( .>/gro.sgnalåsä//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuå kcähc ,noitamrofni ärom råF !tnämyålped dna ngisäd egaugnal gnimmargårp cirätose råf buh lanåitanretni eht åt ämocleW :sod
00:57:11 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
00:57:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: what's the difference between `` and ``` again? just that ``` is less likely to be malicious?
00:57:50 <HackEgo> ).tänLAD ro tänFÄ no cirätåsä# yrt ,acirätåse få dnik rehtå eht råF( .>/grå.sgnalåsä//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcähc ,noitamråfni äråm roF !tnämyolpäd dna ngisäd ägaugnal gnimmargorp ciretåse råf buh lanåitanretni äht åt emåcläW :såd
00:58:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: ``` unsets the locale, and allows brace expansion iirc
00:58:13 <fizzie> I keep forgetting the point of ``` as well.
00:58:14 <wob_jonas> but I think now `` also allows brace expansion
00:58:16 <oerjan> wob_jonas: this is one of the things you'd use `` instead of ``` for hth
00:58:23 <ais523> unsetting the locale is probably not what you wanted to do in this case
00:58:49 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, it's obvious in retrospect, but I didn't remember what locale `` used and didn't want to mess up again, so I just set it explicitly
00:59:39 <ais523> yes but it also needs a randomly chosen name that's different each time you use it
00:59:49 <fizzie> FWIW, emoclew is not just welcome | rev.
00:59:59 <fizzie> It explicitly undoes the reversal of the parentheses.
01:00:22 <fizzie> With a "tr \(\)\<\> \)\(\>\<" step.
01:00:29 <olsner> that is, it reverses the parentheses?
01:00:35 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .</gro.sgnalose//:ptth> :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :()surlaw
01:00:45 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr \(\)\<\> \)\(\>\<
01:00:56 <olsner> whereas rev (I guess) just outputs them in the original order so they're the wrong way around
01:01:09 <fizzie> There are no such in the welcome.
01:01:23 <ais523> is there a Unicode property for being used in pairs with another character?
01:01:28 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: No, I mean a `rnwelc or somesuch that chooses one of our many fine stupid welcome variants
01:01:31 <ais523> together with a function for finding the other end of the pair?
01:01:37 <olsner> yeah, there's a list of pairs somewhere
01:01:45 <oerjan> `sled bin/emoclew//s,>,>\[\],;s,</<\]\[,
01:01:46 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 21: unterminated `s' command
01:01:55 <olsner> e.g. bidi involves flipping of those in the correct way
01:02:02 <oerjan> `sled bin/emoclew//s,>,>\[\],;s,<,<\]\[,
01:02:05 <HackEgo> bin/emoclew//#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr \(\)\<][\>[] \)\(\>\<
01:02:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know, but I think there's a property for pairs of parenthesis that are reversed if used in rtl writing, so that an opening parenthesis ( is rendered shown backwards in rtl text
01:02:11 <oerjan> `emoclew hppavilion[1]
01:02:12 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .</gro.sgnalose//:ptth> :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :<1<noilivapph
01:02:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:03:10 <ais523> sgnalose.org is available, if anyone wants it
01:03:10 <wob_jonas> but it gets more complicated than that of course, with cjk punctuation that are rotated and shifted in vertical writing, possibly in different ways depending on whether the language is chinese or japanese; and with the question mark ? that gets mirrored in some rtl languages but not all
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01:03:32 <wob_jonas> so eventually it's horribly complicated and you just leave it all for proper text rendering engines to handle it
01:03:44 <wob_jonas> it doesn't change semantics anyway, only visuals
01:04:04 <oerjan> `sled bin/emoclew//s,>,>\\[\\],;s,<,<\\]\\[,
01:04:06 <HackEgo> bin/emoclew//#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr \(\)\<\]\[\>\[\] \)\(\>\<
01:04:27 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:05:09 <wob_jonas> oerjan: great, now add angle brackets and floor/ceil brackets too
01:06:02 <oerjan> `sled bin/emoclew//s,tr.*,tr '()<>[]{}' ')(><][}{',
01:06:04 <HackEgo> bin/emoclew//#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr '()<>[]{}' ')(><][}{'
01:06:17 <oerjan> wob_jonas: those are not legal in irc nicks hth
01:06:21 <oerjan> `emoclew hppavilion[1]
01:06:22 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .</gro.sgnalose//:ptth> :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :[1]noilivapph
01:06:44 <oerjan> wob_jonas: well that and the welcome message
01:07:13 <shachaf> The letters themselves aren't being mirrored.
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01:07:51 <ais523> http://www.bash.org/?330261
01:07:54 <oerjan> we added brackets only because they look bad mismatched.
01:10:00 <ais523> hmm, now I'm surprised that the #3 post on bash.org doesn't seem to have spawned a meme
01:10:14 <ais523> you'd expect most of them to have done, and indeed, most of them did
01:10:20 <ais523> so that seems quite a way up
01:11:04 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, in the Masons, ∴ is used in S∴S∴A∴A∴s (Symbol Separated Abbreviations and Acronyms) rather than .
01:12:06 <ais523> I need more compose key training
01:15:22 <HackEgo> U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS \ UTF-8: 28 UTF-16BE: 0028 Decimal: ( \ ( \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored
01:15:59 <HackEgo> U+003F QUESTION MARK \ UTF-8: 3f UTF-16BE: 003f Decimal: ? \ ? \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
01:16:20 <HackEgo> U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK \ UTF-8: 21 UTF-16BE: 0021 Decimal: ! \ ! \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
01:16:54 <oerjan> doesn't look like ? is special there
01:17:43 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, that visual stuff is probably encoded only in the properties in the font, not in unicode properties.
01:18:29 <oerjan> wob_jonas: ( was special
01:20:50 <fizzie> The character properties include Ps/Pe (punctuation, open/close) and Pi/Pf (punctuation, initial/final quote).
01:22:05 <fizzie> And the other special thing that's there is the Bidi_Mirrored flag and its associated Bidi_Mirroring_Glyph "pointer".
01:22:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: emocler: not found
01:22:58 <fizzie> The latter one is: "Informative mapping for substituting characters in an implementation of bidirectional mirroring. This maps a subset of characters with the Bidi_Mirrored property to other characters that normally are displayed with the corresponding mirrored glyph. When a character with the Bidi_Mirrored property has the default value for Bidi_Mirroring_Glyph, that means that no other ...
01:23:00 <wob_jonas> I don't really know about it, software does all that for me
01:23:04 <fizzie> ... character exists whose glyph is appropriate for character-based glyph mirroring. Implementations must then use other mechanisms to implement mirroring of those characters for the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm."
01:23:13 <wob_jonas> as in, in case I ever want to render rtl text
01:25:22 <fizzie> There's 182 pairs in BidiMirroring.txt, and it also contains comments listing 181 characters as having no appropriate mirroring character.
01:25:52 <ais523> oh, for a moment I thought you were going to say that ( was the only character that mirrored
01:26:00 <ais523> and Unicode hadn't got around to the other 181 yet
01:27:00 <oerjan> well there's not pointer in the above ( entry
01:27:21 <fizzie> Python's unicodedata module has a function for the 'mirrored' attribute, but not one for the mirror glyph mapping.
01:27:23 <oerjan> i wonder why they consider ) not appropriate...
01:28:23 <oerjan> fizzie: oh wait, 182 pairs. i interpreted that similarly to ais523.
01:28:37 <fizzie> Yes, they're suspiciously close numbers.
01:30:10 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/DjAA has the full list.
01:30:17 <zzo38> In my file with the custom cards now I hoped to have written all of the new rules involved properly. Please tell me if you think there is anything wrong or unclear or whatever. http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
01:32:07 <HackEgo> [U+0F3A TIBETAN MARK GUG RTAGS GYON]
01:32:59 <ais523> what's the left-to-rightness of the line drawing characters?
01:33:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: ask lifthrasiir about that
01:34:21 <zzo38> If there is anything wrong with what I wrote, or if you have confirmed if it is OK, then please tell me.
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01:42:05 <fizzie> ais523: I think they're all character property "Symbol, Other" with bidi type "other neutrals" (ON).
01:42:35 <fizzie> The "characters with unusual properties" section of the standard says: "Many other characters behave in special ways but are not noted here, either because they do not affect surrounding text in the same way or because their use is intended for well-defined contexts. Examples include the compatibility characters for block drawing, --"
01:43:54 <ais523> wait, those are compatibility characters?
01:44:07 <ais523> someone go invent a language in which they're important for meaning
01:44:16 <ais523> and a natural language, not Funciton
01:45:10 <fizzie> ais523: "All of these characters are intended for compatibility with character cell graphic sets in use prior to 1990." From the "Box Drawing" (2500-257F) block character sheet.
01:46:10 <fizzie> I time travel every time I run aptitude to update things.
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03:20:07 <zzo38> Character cell graphic sets are still in use now; it isn't only prior to 1990 that they were used, although they were in use then, too.
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03:58:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> I typically use some sort of fabric as a substitute, though. <-- me too
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05:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> T h i si sa ne x a m p l eo fr e v e r s ee n g l i s hk e r n i n ga n ds p a c i n g
05:11:48 <pikhq> ai foa wan shinku zatto izzu teriburu.
05:18:15 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: nice convention
05:18:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49734&oldid=49051 * DJMcMayhem * (-996) Changed the sample division code to a newer, shorter, more robust version.
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05:37:17 <hppavilion[1]> `picketfence ai foa wan shinku zatto izzu teriburu.
05:37:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: picketfence: not found
05:45:40 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: That's transcribing English to Japanese to English.
05:46:25 <pikhq> No, no, just transcribing. No translation involved.
05:46:39 <shachaf> pikhq: Non-rhotic English?
05:46:58 <pikhq> Transcribe to fit Japanese writing (and phoneme set), and then perform standard romanization back.
05:47:32 <pikhq> shachaf: Transcriptions into Japanese script tend to be fairly non-rhotic because there is only one syllable-terminal consonant in Japanese.
05:48:03 <shachaf> Is "foa" better than e.g. "foru"?
05:48:10 <pikhq> Yes, it sounds closer.
05:48:27 <shachaf> pikhq: Do you compulsively transcribe Japanese text to English letters?
05:48:48 <pikhq> Not really. Just sometimes to be polite.
05:49:15 <shachaf> too late, i already made my pun
05:49:21 <pikhq> "foru" sounds pretty weird as a transcription of "for", because "ru" sounds nothing like a rhoticized vowel at all.
05:50:02 <pikhq> (Japanese "r" is an alveolar tap)
05:51:30 <shachaf> I was at a Japanese store today.
05:51:35 <shachaf> I got some mysterious Japanese candies.
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05:56:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Was it there yesterday and will it be there tomorrow?
05:57:23 <hppavilion[1]> "Most people recognize that when dealing with questions of physics, biology, chemistry, etc., they need to ask an expert, whereas with linguistics, many people don't even realize that there are experts to be asked. "
06:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/sapir-worf_2620.jpg
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07:59:43 <\oren\> There's been a terrorist attack in manhattan
08:02:49 <int-e> Interesting, because officially they're talking of an "intentional act". 'De Blasio says "there is no evidence at this point of a terror connection" and there is no "credible and specific threat" to New York City.'
08:03:55 <\oren\> I view any event where someone plants bombs in trashcans as a terror attack.
08:04:45 <\oren\> It's certainly not a normal military tactic.
08:06:50 <\oren\> unless of course we want to go back to before the geneva conventon was a thing
08:07:30 <int-e> I tend to agree. I think what Blasio is saying is essentially that they haven't found any political background or larger conspiracy behind it.
08:07:48 <\oren\> right, they don't know who did it or why
08:08:32 <\oren\> apparently they've found several other pressure cooker bombs
08:08:53 <int-e> Anyway, it's really too early to be sure about anything.
08:09:42 <int-e> Nobody died so far, it seems... that's a small relief.
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08:54:45 <\oren\> apparently in the uk, a dumpster is called a "skip"
09:00:19 <Taneb> \oren\, I don't really use the word "dumpster" (am from the UK) but if what I know about the word is correct, a skip is an open dumpster generally used for rubble
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10:27:04 <hppavilion[1]> I think the ONLY good option in this election is that Hillary wins then promptly dies (not that I want her dead (please don't hurt me FBI), but she just happens to die (better would be resigning (but we all know that's never going to happen) or otherwise incapacitated)), leading Tim Kaine to ascend to the presidency
10:27:55 <hppavilion[1]> (I checked a Trump necrovictory scenario, but GOD I couldn't stand President Mike Pence)
10:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> Pence was against tobacco regulation because "2 out of every three smokers does not die from a smoking related illness"
10:28:52 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, only 33% of smokers are killed from it? That's practically none!
10:33:38 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I don't really see what's so bad about Clinton, other than she's a bit too much of the status quo
10:34:04 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I think she's just a bit of an idiot, a bit out of touch
10:34:49 <hppavilion[1]> (There was the controversy where she used 19 phones and said only 1; I don't think that she was lying, I think she just didn't realize that getting a new phone and loading the data from the previous one constitutes a new phone)
10:35:05 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], so, like every politician ever?
10:35:30 <Taneb> In fact, probably like Tim Kaine?
10:36:45 <hppavilion[1]> This is a crazy election; we know how one candidate stood on the war in Iraq because of how they voted, and where the OTHER one stood because of /an interview with Howard Stern/
10:44:14 <hppavilion[1]> She voted for the Patriot Act (then again, only one person didn't)
10:44:24 <hppavilion[1]> She's a fan of 'working with Silicon Valley to "prevent online radicalization."'
10:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> She wants to... jesus, she wants to make Flag Desecration a crime
10:52:25 <hppavilion[1]> She promised to "appoint Native Americans to key positions in a number of federal departments and agencies", which is very affirmative action
10:54:32 <hppavilion[1]> After the Dallas police shootings, she "called on white Americans to empathize with black Americans" (we're talking the guy who murdered police here)
10:57:43 <hppavilion[1]> "Clinton said in 2016 that if elected president, she will fill half of her Cabinet with women, a move that would be historic in the United States." affirmative action
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17:12:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Java']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49735&oldid=21445 * TuxCrafting * (-2) (tm)™
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21:52:18 <Moonythedwarf> either ibm has gone _insane_ and is lieing to us, or they have given the world access to a 5 bit quantum computer: https://quantumexperience.ng.bluemix.net/qstage/#/editor
21:54:45 <nortti> oh, huh, you no longer need to request account? cool
21:57:04 <nortti> I signed up in the first (?) phase, had to wait three weeks to get approved
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23:30:22 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, how do you know it's not just a simulation of on
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00:45:23 <oerjan> i think you only proved that you are you, and god is a god hth
00:45:36 * Zarutian names hppavilion[1] as the god of compile time programmer musings.
00:46:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: "I am a god" follows from several other theorems; I did not feel the need to document my full proof here, as it was irrelevant
00:47:44 <Sgeo_> Is STOP on the wiki?
00:48:08 <oerjan> if there only was a way to find out...
00:48:22 <oerjan> @google STOP site:esolangs.org
00:48:23 <lambdabot> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Stop_h_time
00:48:56 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/comments/53a92v/stop_a_codeisdata_language/
00:49:03 <Sgeo_> I have no idea whether it's interesting
00:51:12 <oerjan> probably not on the wiki.
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01:04:18 <wob_jonas> some guy took over gmane and is working on making some of the existing functionality accessible: http://home.gmane.org/
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01:22:16 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, so the US is a Federation whereas the Confederacy was, well, a Confederation
01:23:23 <hppavilion[1]> In both, you have an overarching government and smaller regional governments
01:23:56 <hppavilion[1]> But in a federation, the overarching government takes precedence, whereas in a confederation the regional governments hold more power
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01:57:22 <_46bit> you missed your fear of missing out
01:57:31 <_46bit> and therefore have conquered your universe
01:57:32 <oerjan> a lot of MtG and a lot of hppavilion[1]y weirdness.
01:58:10 <HackEgo> MTG is short for Money Tapping Game.
01:59:35 * oerjan still wishes he could think of a better synonym in T
02:00:57 <oerjan> also Sgeo_ linked to someone's new language on r/esolangs
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02:17:41 <wob_jonas> http://blog.unicode.org/2016/05/icu-joins-unicode-consortium.html ICU joins the Unicode Consortium -- wow
02:20:20 <Elronnd> what's the icu again? International Consortium of Unicode?
02:20:52 <wob_jonas> Elrond: no, it's that big well-maintained localization library
02:22:04 <wob_jonas> much of it deals with unicode, though not all
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02:29:49 <\oren\> argh I want icecream but I already ate all of it
02:30:44 <\oren\> hmm is it possible to make icecream
02:31:36 <\oren\> I'm going to try to do it
02:31:45 <\oren\> I have a blendtec blender
02:39:20 <\oren\> I made something resembling a very thick milkshake
02:39:34 <\oren\> ll count this as success
02:42:13 <\oren\> recipe: milk, molasses, sugar, lots of ice
02:43:08 <\oren\> blend at high speed until no chunks of ice left. blend at low speed until it resembles ice cream
02:43:50 <\oren\> I think it would have fully frozen if there was more molasses and ice and less milk
02:45:08 <\oren\> or maybe if I use d ice cubes made of forxen milk?
03:00:36 <Elronnd> my program seg-faults *sometimes*
03:00:58 <Elronnd> because I'm accessing locations in an array
03:01:10 <Elronnd> and those locations are decided randomly
03:02:44 <hppavilion[1]> (It's a caesar cypher, but the alphabet shifts each time by a set interval)
03:03:29 <Elronnd> so the first character shifts by 1, the second by 2, etc?
03:04:33 <Elronnd> so is it based off the string itself?
03:04:40 <hppavilion[1]> Your key is (shift, initshift, delay, cap)- shift is how much the alphabet is shifted each step, initshift is how much the alphabet is shifted initially, delay is how many steps are between shifts (so you might only shift every other step), and cap is an optional number n that resets the alphabet to the initial shift every n steps
03:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> With the key (3, 2, 1, 19), "I am santa lord of dankness" becomes "G vh kpcfm uuxg of byiffwhh", and can be easily decrypted back into "I am santa lord of dankness"
03:05:57 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: No, that makes it impossible to decrypt when intended
03:06:09 <Elronnd> I once made a cipher that would add each character of your password to each character of the text
03:06:25 <hppavilion[1]> ("I am santa lord of dankness" is my current cryptographic test string- I usually use "walrus", but I wanted something longer for this)
03:06:46 <Elronnd> but because of the way python works, it was liable to give odd warnings when you gave the wrong password decrypting
03:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: This is similar to, but not the same as, Viginere
03:07:41 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Mine, I'm still trying to figure out what you mean about how it works
03:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, I think yours might ACTUALLY be Viginere, more-or-less
03:08:22 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: so let's say that the text was "I am santa lord of dankness"
03:08:38 <Elronnd> first it would add 'w' to 'I'
03:09:13 <Elronnd> if you reach the end of the password, you start back at the beginning
03:09:33 <hppavilion[1]> Could it be done with (if we replace ascii with just the alphabet) a table of Caesar cyphers, where you choose the /n/th row based on the current letter of your password?
03:09:52 <hppavilion[1]> Sounds like you reinvented Viginere, which was considered unbreakable for about 2 centuries :D
03:10:19 <Elronnd> and I don't have a *clue* how that works
03:10:26 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Compare it to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigenère_cipher
03:11:53 <wob_jonas> hpp: AES is a symmetric cypher, RSA is a public-private key cipher. very different stuff.
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03:13:44 <wob_jonas> In practice, since public-key ciphers are slow, they're usually used to encode the key for a symmetric cipher, thus the two combine to a fast public-key cipher. this also has the advantage that you can encrypt the same data with multiple public keys without repeating all the data.
03:15:21 <\oren\> well these days we use double RSA or something
03:16:37 <Elronnd> unrelated, but I found what was causing my program to segfault randomly
03:17:40 <hppavilion[1]> Homophobes don't want to use AES because it's a gay (or "symmetric") cypher; they don't want to use RSA because key-pairing should be saved until after a connection is established
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03:44:07 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRzl_994Tj8
03:45:01 <\oren\> higurashi no naku koro ni aint what it used to be
03:50:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49736&oldid=49712 * Qwerp-Derp * (+216) Added @ operator
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04:10:15 <oerjan> `learn Homophones are pairs of words that sound totally gay together.
04:10:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'homophone': Homophones are pairs of words that sound totally gay together.
04:10:43 <oerjan> (hppavilion[1] is getting to me)
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04:43:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Though how DOES one design websites for blind people? Most likely just a terminal interface)
04:45:31 <oerjan> you use semantic markup, avoid putting info only in formatting (that is not semantic) or pictures...
04:47:40 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, the answer for the moment is "Yeah, probably")
04:47:54 <oerjan> wikipedia has a project page for accessibility, although that's about wiki markup.
04:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> (He's also a cross dresser, in the military, is an internet pirate who DOES own a boat, and a climate change denier because George Carlin)
04:51:32 <oerjan> is everyone you know weird :P
04:52:11 <hppavilion[1]> My mother has decided she must just gravitate towards these people
04:52:56 <hppavilion[1]> (Another friend of hers is a bouncer at Mad Merna's (the local gay bar) (I think it's Mad Merna's), participates in roller derby, and sold socks at the state fair.
04:55:04 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Serial killer; died a few years back when he killed himself in custody. Last victim was a girl found in a lake- I remember seeing the posters and banners put up by her family looking for her
04:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> Israel Keys was a contractor when he wasn't serial killing. Paul hired him to add an extension to his his house before anyone knew, so he was frequently within physical proximity of a man who had keys to his house.
05:20:55 <hppavilion[1]> (But maybe not; depends on whether everyone is like this)
05:41:16 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: what does colourblindness have to do with reading characters wrong?
05:42:29 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: My favorite encryption I thought of is the "Viginere cypher cypher"
05:42:44 <hppavilion[1]> You encrypt random garbage using the message and the other person cracks the cypher and just looks at the key
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06:27:28 <zzo38> How can you crach them so well if the data is random garabage?
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06:47:30 <zzo38> Do you like any of the more "proper" card and "Un" cards I made up for the Magic: the Gathering? What comment/question about it please?
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09:22:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwerp-Derp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49737 * Qwerp-Derp * (+521) Created page with "Hello, everyone! My name is Qwerp-Derp. (Don't judge me, it's a good name). Anyway, I am a hobbyist programmer, and I have successfully made my own language, [[Logicode]]. C..."
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11:41:15 <izalove> any site with a search bar that isn't as smart as google sucks
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11:41:36 <izalove> pirates of the caribbeans -> 0 results
11:41:44 <izalove> pirates of the caribbean -> 894573498534 results
11:43:51 <myname> i like how bing could not find dr who in the early days, but dr. who was not a problem
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12:34:33 <izalove> Comment: Why are pirates called pirates?... They just ARRRRRRRR..
12:34:37 <izalove> Title: 01 Pirates Of The Caribbean The Curse Of The Black Pearl - Johnny Depp 2003 Eng Subs 1080p [H264-mp4]
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12:50:17 <myname> today is talk like a pirate day
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13:13:57 <boily> IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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13:30:34 <boily> I haven't porthelloed people in a long time...
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14:32:39 <\oren\> Clinton's it guy asked how to delete email data on
14:33:10 <\oren\> excellent data on Paul Combetta has been exposed
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14:35:03 <\oren\> jesus christ what an idiot, he used the same username on a porn site as on reddit and steam
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14:50:34 <HackEgo> Kobalt: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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16:05:36 <moonythedwarf> http://www.quide.eu/ << I highly doubt this is a accurate simulation, i mean really. _quantum computation_ simulation for classical computers written in c#
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16:24:59 <FreeFull> moonythedwarf: You can simulate quantum computing on a classical computer, but it's extremely inefficient
16:25:21 <FreeFull> I think exponential in the number of qubits
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18:32:35 <\oren\> ❄ping why does my bot respond before I activate it
18:33:08 <HackEgo> smlist 450: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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19:44:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kimiyuki * New user account
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19:59:33 <zzo38> I have thought of some possible extensions for line printer daemon protocol, which can include having the server included in the printer. This includes printer characteristics request, printer status request (such as out of paper), PJL format, and named packed font upload.
20:00:14 <zzo38> Not a lot of changes are needed from the current protocol; there are just a few commands, and is backward compatible too.
20:02:59 <zzo38> Printer characteristics report includes such information as which file formats it supports, amount of available memory for data files, paper size, resolution, etc
20:09:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49738&oldid=49725 * Kimiyuki * (+229) /* Introductions */
20:13:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emmental]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49739&oldid=47081 * Kimiyuki * (-28) /* Implementations */
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20:36:15 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, does unicode not contain a superscript period?
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20:41:29 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzu15ZezipE
20:41:36 <\oren\> what am i doing with my life
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20:50:08 <gamemanj> oren: did you actually watch all of that
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20:51:04 <\oren\> what courage? my brain is slowly melting
20:53:06 <gamemanj> oren: finish this sequence: bound sound ?ound
20:54:25 <gamemanj> Error has been identified. I suggest /part #memes.
20:55:53 <gamemanj> (Or, alternatively, if you are actually under the influence of subject matter delta-13 (see decryption mapping 87), I suggest not being under the influence of subject matter delta-13.)
20:56:11 <\oren\> I still have that song stuck in my head
20:56:23 <\oren\> pepe come here, and he hops and hops!
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20:56:52 <gamemanj> When I see something that I know is going to damage my mind, I close it as soon as possible, and think of an estimate for how long it took for me to close it.
20:57:23 <gamemanj> I do not recommend posting these estimates into IRC.
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21:01:58 <ais523> moonythedwarf: do you expect it to be beatable?
21:02:19 <gamemanj> moonythedwarf: Did a browser window just appear?
21:03:29 <gamemanj> oh, wait, I see, it's multiline stuff, so...
21:03:36 <Kobalt> Traceback (most recent call last): | File "app_main.py", line 72, in run_toplevel | File "app_main.py", line 578, in run_it | File "<string>", line 1, in <module> | File "/bin/lib-python/2.7/antigravity.py", line 2, in <module> |
21:03:55 <gamemanj> aw, it saw through the evil plot. Interesting that it got all the way to running antigravity.py, though
21:04:22 <ais523> ?>for x in xrange(100): print ("FizzBuzz" if x % 15 == 0 else "Fizz" if x % 3 == 0 else "Buzz" if x % 5 == 0 else x)
21:04:27 <ais523> ~>for x in xrange(100): print ("FizzBuzz" if x % 15 == 0 else "Fizz" if x % 3 == 0 else "Buzz" if x % 5 == 0 else x)
21:04:44 <ais523> admittedly fizzbuzzes don't normally start at 0
21:05:00 <ais523> ~>for x in range(1,20): print ("FizzBuzz" if x % 15 == 0 else "Fizz" if x % 3 == 0 else "Buzz" if x % 5 == 0 else x)
21:05:30 <ais523> ~>py> for x in range(1,20): print ("FizzBuzz" if x % 15 == 0 else "Fizz" if x % 3 == 0 else "Buzz" if x % 5 == 0 else x)
21:05:34 <Kobalt> 1 | 2 | Fizz | 4 | Buzz | Fizz | 7 | 8 | Fizz | Buzz | 11 | Fizz | 13 | 14 | FizzBuzz | 16 | 17 | Fizz | 19 |
21:06:24 <moonythedwarf> dont mind me, stealing hackego's line seperator format, also, ~>pyc works better for singleline
21:06:25 <gamemanj> ~>pyc import os; os.system("echo hello");
21:06:27 <Kobalt> Traceback (most recent call last): | File "app_main.py", line 72, in run_toplevel | File "app_main.py", line 578, in run_it | File "<string>", line 1, in <module> | RuntimeError |
21:07:45 <ais523> ~>pyc open("/etc/passwd").read()
21:07:46 <Kobalt> Traceback (most recent call last): | File "app_main.py", line 72, in run_toplevel | File "app_main.py", line 578, in run_it | File "<string>", line 1, in <module> | IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/etc/passwd' | [Subprocess exit code: 1]
21:08:10 <ais523> hmm, it can get as far as determining that the file isn't there
21:08:20 <ais523> so I assume you have some sort of emulated/contained filesystem
21:08:38 <ais523> moonythedwarf: I assumed there was /some/ sandbox but didn't know which
21:09:03 <ais523> and probing the limits of bot sandboxes is a #esoteric pastime
21:09:05 <moonythedwarf> yea, pypy-c-sandbox i've personally agreed with myself that its really strong and this sentence makes no sense
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21:10:27 <int-e> > text$unwords[max(s++t)(show n)|s<-cycle["Fizz","",""]|t<-cycle["Buzz","","","",""]|n<-[1..100]]
21:10:39 <int-e> > text$unwords[max(s++t)(show n)|s<-cycle["Fizz","",""]|t<-cycle["Buzz","","","",""]|n<-[1..100]]
21:10:41 <lambdabot> FizzBuzz 2 3 Fizz 5 Buzz Fizz 8 9 Fizz Buzz 12 Fizz 14 15 FizzBuzz 17 18 Fiz...
21:11:03 <zzo38> Is there any sort of file that can be used to compile extensions meant for Perl or Python for Node.js?
21:11:04 <int-e> > text$unwords[max(s++t)(show n)|s<-cycle["","","Fizz"]|t<-cycle["","","","","Buzz"]|n<-[1..100]]
21:11:06 <lambdabot> 1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Buzz...
21:12:37 <moonythedwarf> i wonder how small #esoteric can make a fizzbuzz program
21:13:01 <zzo38> I tried to make the small FizzBuzz program with TeX
21:13:18 <ais523> likely smaller than that
21:13:54 <ais523> that use of max is pretty clever, though
21:14:21 <int-e> oh http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?FizzBuzz seems to be down
21:18:09 <zzo38> Here is the one with TeX in 142 bytes: \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
21:18:32 <nortti> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_that_Buddha_would_not_play
21:20:00 <ais523> is that using \day as a variable?
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21:20:41 <int-e> anyway, anagol has a 82 char record for FizzBuzz in Haskell... I have 85, hmm
21:21:37 <myname> why not use a shorter variable name?
21:22:12 <ais523> myname: I think variables need to be declared in TeX but some are predeclared
21:22:20 <ais523> it may be that \day is the shortest predeclared variable
21:22:57 <zzo38> Yes, as well as \fam, which is equally short.
21:23:17 <zzo38> (The \fam variable is used to control fonts in math mode. Since this program does not use math mode, it can use it for general purpose.)
21:23:22 <myname> what is \day usually used for?
21:23:51 <zzo38> \day stores the day number of the month.
21:24:06 <shachaf> Day convolution is too good
21:24:16 <zzo38> Normally it is not modified, and TeX does not use it internally other than set it to the correct value when it starts.
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22:11:03 <myname> https://youtu.be/fyMQ2203pQM food wishes <3
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22:13:00 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIbKsd1gR8o
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22:16:37 <shachaf> int-e: Can lambdabot error message in a public channel be restricted to one line or something like that?
22:19:25 <int-e> > vcat $ map (text.show) [1..]
22:19:42 <Taneb> shachaf, yukibot (which uses the same Haskell evaluator thingy) does so, so it's definitely possible
22:20:04 <shachaf> int-e: In particular I'm thinking of error messages, not output.
22:20:07 <int-e> lambdabot cannot really distinguish between errors and normal output.
22:20:17 <shachaf> But I don't mind if it's done with output too.
22:20:53 <shachaf> Some people are especially careless in #haskell, and just type in 5 or 10 erroneous lines.
22:21:18 <int-e> @check \x -> take 10 x == x
22:21:21 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 19 tests):
22:21:21 <lambdabot> [(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),()]
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22:22:20 <olsner> iirc lambdabot output is limited much shorter in channels than in PMs
22:22:52 <int-e> it currently limits channel output to 3 lines with 80 characters each.
22:23:24 <\oren\> german is a nice language
22:23:28 <myname> \oren\: they just sound ridiculous
22:23:50 <myname> and i like it way better than english
22:24:01 <ais523> int-e: well one line of 240 characters is typically less impactful on a channel
22:24:04 <myname> i just can't stand it in vocals
22:24:44 <ais523> @check \x -> not (x == 1500)
22:24:48 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000078 Tetranacci numbers: a(n) = a(n-1) + a(n-2) + a(n-3)...
22:24:48 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,1,1,2,4,8,15,29,56,108,208,401,773,1490,2872,5536,10671,20569,39648,7...
22:25:21 <\oren\> yeah, i see what you mean. i've had to train myself to stop my brain processing the english words of certian songs
22:25:58 <\oren\> because japanese people sometimes write ridiculous english
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22:26:39 <\oren\> actually, even many american artists' words are ridiculous
22:26:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: primes: not found
22:27:11 <ais523> seriously? I thought it was installed by default
22:27:14 <myname> i think german is a horrible choice for music. maybe with the exception of rap, but i don't like that
22:27:44 <HackEgo> seq: invalid floating point argument: 1 1000 \ Try `seq --help' for more information.
22:27:49 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ 33 \ 34 \ 35 \ 36 \ 37 \ 38 \ 39 \ 40 \ 41 \ 42 \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ 48 \ 49 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 55 \ 56 \ 57 \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ 63 \ 64 \ 65 \ 66 \ 67 \ 68 \ 69 \ 70 \ 71 \ 72 \
22:28:07 <ais523> int-e: ^ that's my preferred way to deal with long output; replace newlines with backslashes and allow the line to get fairly long
22:28:13 <olsner> german seems to work well for EBM, but I'm not native so I won't notice if the lyrics are silly
22:28:25 <ais523> that said, two lines of output works pretty well for @oeis
22:28:44 <\oren\> olsner: right. that's the issue I had when first listeneing to e.g. Iron Attack songs
22:28:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
22:29:18 <ais523> I thought that one would be really easy…
22:29:21 <int-e> too many sequences?
22:29:29 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wq5Q3axIJA
22:29:42 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
22:29:49 <int-e> (I don't know; the website says: "Displaying 1-10 of 5466 results found.")
22:29:50 <ais523> maybe OEIS itself is down
22:30:04 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A002981 Numbers n such that n! + 1 is prime.
22:30:04 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,11,27,37,41,73,77,116,154,320,340,399,427,872,1477,6380,26951,11005...
22:30:07 <ais523> that should have fewer results
22:30:42 <\oren\> "make your fate for yourself and together" -- like seriously what are you people trying to say
22:31:17 -!- shachaf has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
22:32:08 <\oren\> but if you somehow stop understanding english temporarily it's a great song!
22:33:17 <\oren\> maybe if english speakers start writing songs in broken japanese we can take revenge
22:33:39 <myname> it's reasonable. the style reminds me of helloween
22:33:49 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘[a]’ with actual type ‘a0 -> a0’
22:33:49 <lambdabot> • Probable cause: ‘id’ is applied to too few arguments
22:34:15 <shachaf> Packing that error into one line wouldn't be so bad.
22:35:57 <\oren\> or, maybe if we translate japanese songs with broken english in them into english with broken japanese
22:36:11 <myname> while we are posting songs, https://youtu.be/gGTAmmTiD_Y
22:46:03 <int-e> meh I don't want to change this, really.
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22:55:45 <HackEgo> factor: `-1' is not a valid positive integer
22:56:34 <int-e> in any case, bedtime
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23:11:50 <FreeFull> 0 doesn't have a factorisation either, it should error on it
23:12:19 <FreeFull> The first number with a factorisation is 1 (empty product)
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23:19:18 <\oren\> is 0 a positive integer?
23:19:34 <shachaf> According to a book I have, yes.
23:19:57 <\oren\> is 0 also a negative integer?
23:20:22 <zzo38> Neither, as far as I am concerned
23:21:09 <\oren\> there should be a negative int type in C++
23:21:30 <shachaf> The book, which is _Finite-Dimensional Vector Spaces_ by Halmos, uses "positive" to mean "greater than or equal to zero", and "strictly positive" to mean "greater than zero".
23:21:49 <shachaf> I think this would be a better usage than the standard one.
23:21:53 <shachaf> But it's probably not worth the fight.
23:22:34 <\oren\> hmm, a negative int would basically interpret 1 as -255, instead of -1 as 255 as with unsigned int
23:22:52 <\oren\> wait that's a negative char
23:22:53 <FreeFull> French mathematics considers 0 to be both positive and negative
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23:23:09 <FreeFull> While, say England or USA would say 0 is neither
23:25:04 <\oren\> idea! a stupid char allows values [-255,-128]u[128,255].
23:26:21 <\oren\> yes, lets go with that. numbers near zero are unrepresented
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23:34:56 <\oren\> let's use binary coded duodecimal
23:36:04 <FreeFull> No, we need an odd base to make it balanced
23:36:16 <\oren\> binary coded balanced base 15
23:37:33 <\oren\> although it would probably be easier in software to do balanced base 255
23:38:23 <\oren\> i once had some bignum functions that used regular base 255 so that it could be stored in a C string
23:39:32 <\oren\> basically, if you invert each byte before and after processing, the unused FF digit is stored as 0
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23:40:53 <\oren\> thus, it can be used to mark the end of the number
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00:05:29 <shachaf> fizzie: When in Oct did you say you'll be here?
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00:19:15 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Can currency be modeled as stock in itself? As in, can ¤5 be thought of as 5 shares in the Generic Currency corporation? )
00:20:45 <shachaf> It's a financial instrument like any other, but not part ownership of a company.
00:22:02 <pikhq> Fun fact: all elements have a systemic currency code.
00:22:12 <pikhq> Though not used at all, hydrogen is XH
00:22:31 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
00:22:41 <pikhq> 1 XH is, of course, one troy ounce of hydrogen.
00:25:06 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I think hydrogen would probably be XXH to keep the length-3 part consistent
00:25:29 <pikhq> Thankfully, there is no element E.
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00:25:53 <hppavilion[1]> That would make it XXE, which- while unambiguous (no element 'E')- is still going to trip someone up who knows the X
00:26:09 <pikhq> Though arguably one could say that "e" is for an electron, and XXE is from 1 troy ounce of electrons.
00:26:21 <hppavilion[1]> (Really, the X should be after the element- gold is XAU, xenon is XEX, etc.)
00:27:07 <pikhq> Sure they do. It's used as a unit of mass, and gasses have mass.
00:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: There, you fixed my messupery of their system
00:27:32 <pikhq> Mind, there aren't many cases where you even have electrons out of an atom, but... 1 troy ounce of electrons seems fun.
00:27:33 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yeah, but not a very consistent density (unlike, say, Iron or Water)
00:28:16 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: What's the value of 1 troy ounce of salt (ClNa)?
00:29:35 <pikhq> Um, good question.
00:30:18 <hppavilion[1]> My best guess is that there's an extension for compounds- most likely, XCM(<code>)
00:33:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe elements should be E[symbol-caps] rather than X__, so that X can be used for cryptocurrencies and such)
00:34:13 <hppavilion[1]> (At the moment, BTC for Bitcoin is considered bad because currency codes are [Nation][Letter], but BT is Bhutan, which Bitcoin is not associated with)
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01:12:46 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Maybe payment should actually be issued in man-hours rather than real hours- if you work at double pace, you get double pay )
01:14:21 <shachaf> i,i and women would get paid 40% more?
01:16:32 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Under this system, women get paid by productiveness. If a woman produces twice as much output as a man doing equal work, she gets paid twice as much
01:19:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Now, in a mythical man-hour scenario this is bad when management decides to approximate; "oh, we added another person to the staff (from a staff of 1) but productivity is only 1.5* greater? Everyone receives a 25% pay dock, then.")
01:24:13 <hppavilion[1]> I've tried to explain to my mother before- who got acupuncture- that acupuncture is pseudoscience
01:24:34 <hppavilion[1]> Now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture is telling me that it /usually/ is, EXCEPT it might be effective for chemotherapy
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01:26:10 <FreeFull> Productivity is hard to quantify anyway, depending on what your job is
01:27:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emmental]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49740&oldid=49739 * Kimiyuki * (+0) /* Using the discrete log */
01:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> Do Chinese people with Synæsthesia have to develop mantis shrimp-like megavision?
01:35:32 <hppavilion[1]> (I wonder if anybody thinks I have synæsthesia from hearing me talk about hex color codes...)
01:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> (I guess hex codes are basically just symmetrical grapheme-color synæsthesia (color-grapheme-color-grapheme synæsthesia?))
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01:51:37 <hppavilion[1]> (Synæsthesia which does digits is stupid anyway; if you don't see every number as a distinct color unrelated to its digits, your brain is doing it wrong)
01:55:21 <hppavilion[1]> Today's xkcd means I either need to support the Fashion Police or turn in my Grammar Police badge.
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02:51:25 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to make an über-concise language for talking to computers (in the sense of conversing with a strong AI, rather than a programming language)
02:52:37 <hppavilion[1]> (It could also, presumably, work well for communicating over a language barrier because it's pretty simple (for now) and should be equally easy for people in all languages to figure out- the only difficulty is if you don't recognize the punctuation (e.g. you don't know ? usually ends a question)
02:54:21 <hppavilion[1]> Trying to decide whether the standard initial greeting (the "are you there") should be ENQ or PING (ACK could maybe also be used)
03:26:18 <zzo38> What is best algorithm for converting a code with goto commands so that it doesn't use goto?
03:30:25 <shachaf> Why do you want to do that?
03:31:15 <zzo38> Mainly in order to compile the code into programming languages that don't have goto.
03:36:46 <shachaf> That depends on what those languages do have.
03:39:38 <zzo38> Most will have if and while, at least, as well as continue and break. JavaScript has a few more than just that, but it would be good to have something that can be use even if the target is not JavaScript but does have if/while/break at least.
03:53:19 <zzo38> My "OAA" compiler for the OASYS text adventure system as it turns out is using "twigils" a bit similar to Perl 6, although I invented it independently. This means that variables never need to be declared. By the prefix and suffix, you can tell if it is a global, local, property, class, method, etc; and the data type (or returned data type for a method) such as integer, string, object, pointer, or void.
03:56:46 <zzo38> It is different than Perl or BASIC though. In BASIC it uses suffixes for data type, and no prefix. Also, the letters forming the name are still required. In OAA the letters forming the name are not required, but the prefix & ! , . % * is required. Do you like this?
04:02:16 <zzo38> Is there a kind of indexing system for JSON data so that you can access JSON data from a program without having to store the entire data in RAM all at once?
04:08:26 <\oren\> Ok! now I've made some progress toward hangul!
04:10:07 <\oren\> zzo38: not that I know of, but you could make one
04:11:11 <\oren\> I think you'd have to regenerate the index after all changes
04:13:15 <zzo38> Yes, also I mean not only local index but also use of remote index.
04:17:40 <\oren\> Hmm, well maybe it's possible to dynamically generate a relational database from a json file?
04:17:56 <\oren\> by autodetecting schemata?
04:21:31 <zzo38> You can make a SQL database from JSON data, but that isn't quite what I was asking here.
04:38:14 <hppavilion[1]> "Oppression is what happens when personal preference becomes legal fact." -- me, just now
04:40:49 <hppavilion[1]> I know a guy name Jazon. I assume he stores attribute-value-style data in JZON.
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04:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> Italic type is OK, but I really want my typefaces to support Cilati type too...
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05:03:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm slowly building an information-dense, impenetrable language for communication
05:17:32 <hppavilion[1]> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Apples.jpg has been used with the note that the objects aren't ravens and ALSO aren't black
05:27:45 <\oren\> holy crap http://archive.is/FXcao <-- Paul Combetta was outright TOLD by the people he asked about redacting emails, that this would be a discorvery nightmare
05:28:18 <\oren\> worse than discovery, is congressional oversight
05:28:54 <Elronnd> who is paul combetta and what did he do?
05:29:03 <\oren\> Elronnd: deleted hillary's emails
05:29:03 <Elronnd> I have a tendency to be out of the loop on a lot of things
05:29:30 <\oren\> he asked on reddit how to remove someone's address from an email archive
05:29:45 <Elronnd> tbh I don't understand all the hillary hate
05:30:01 <Elronnd> if I worked for the government, I wouldn't want them knowing what I emailed who
05:30:31 <\oren\> Elronnd: well, the government is supposed to be responsible for their actions
05:30:36 <Elronnd> I mean, obviously if I email bob from the NSA, bob knows I emailed him; but if I email joe, I don't want bob to know about *that*
05:31:19 <\oren\> and there are laws in the US that say essentially that their legistlature has the right to know everything that the government does
05:31:45 <\oren\> so hillary is not supposed to hide these emails
05:32:23 <Elronnd> and that's why I don't want to work for the us government
05:32:57 <\oren\> me neither. but if you work in any company it is important to keep emails archived in case of discovery
05:33:36 <\oren\> it's also why you should always have a separate work email and personal email
05:33:44 <\oren\> (which hillary did not have)
05:33:44 <zzo38> Yes you should have.
05:35:35 <zzo38> If you want to write personal email messages you should have a separate account which the government and so on does not see. If you need government email then you should be according to the law of government and ensure that anyone can sue them over it if it is wrong.
05:36:22 <Elronnd> at one point I made the realisation that a computer was a real virtual machine
05:36:30 <Elronnd> then I realized how stupid that realization was
05:37:26 <\oren\> Elronnd: in case you're unfamiliar, "discovery" is a process where two companies suing each other get to request documents from each other to uncover evidence of wrongdoing
05:37:48 <zzo38> O, so it is like what I mentioned.
05:39:21 <\oren\> if you delete work emails, you can be fined or worse
05:39:49 <\oren\> so always make sure not to mmkay?
05:41:04 <zzo38> Do you think this API would be good? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/simple_js_addons
05:46:24 <Elronnd> someone give me a wikipedia article to start perusing and go down a rabbit hole of links
05:47:33 <zzo38> Elronnd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
05:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> OMG, they asked how to delete the emails on StackExchange!?
05:54:49 <hppavilion[1]> Men o' War should be classified as "Distributed Organisms"
06:03:13 <\oren\> some editing tasks are more suited to ed, others to nano
06:03:35 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: What's the *n?x equivalent of microsoft word?
06:05:27 <\oren\> uh, i suppose LibreOffice?
06:05:36 <shachaf> zzo38: But I heard the government can see all your email.
06:06:21 <\oren\> shachaf: nah, based on the problems they've had with hillarys' I think the nsa's spying is not actually as extensive as they claim
06:06:43 <shachaf> Why do people say "Hillary" instead of "Clinton"?
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06:06:57 <\oren\> shachaf: to avoid confusing her with bill clinton
06:07:12 <shachaf> What about the president after Bill Clinton?
06:07:34 <\oren\> also her campaign generally refers to her as hillary or just "Her"
06:08:06 <\oren\> the president after bill clinton was Bubya
06:08:37 <hppavilion[1]> (If "Hillary" can be abbreviated to "Hill" and "Rob" can become "Bob", can we make "Hillary" abbreviable to "Bill"?)
06:08:45 <\oren\> as opposed to papa bush
06:09:44 <\oren\> the movie about dubya was just called "W"
06:10:05 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush
06:10:16 <\oren\> gearge aitch dubya bush was his father
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06:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> If he dies too, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate ascends
06:46:50 <hppavilion[1]> Followed by the cabinet (of which one member is kept at a secure undisclosed location whenever the rest are in the same place at the same time- the "Designated Survivor")
06:49:24 <pikhq> I'm afraid it's nowhere near as interesting as the line of succession for the Queen, which these days likely includes most of the population of Europe.
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06:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> Now, if the Designated Survivor has a heart attack, but the House is still around, they can elect a speaker who then becomes president
06:51:58 <pikhq> Ah, right. Includes *substantial portions* of the population of Europe.
06:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> If they're gone too, the Senate chooses a President pro Tempore
06:52:33 <pikhq> While it's certainly not the case that all of Europe is Catholic, there's certainly a lot of Catholics there.
06:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> (And I think the rule is that you're cut off completely- if the crown can only get to you through a catholic, you're screwed. Or maybe that's just for bastardry)
06:52:56 <pikhq> As you might expect for a set of places that includes a Catholic theocracy.
06:53:03 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Just for bastardry.
06:53:17 <hppavilion[1]> Now, if there IS no senate, the governors can appoint senators
06:53:31 <pikhq> Being Catholic apparently doesn't cut you off from giving rise to heirs, just prevents you from yourself being an heir.
06:54:01 <hppavilion[1]> So to properly break the country, you'd have to kill the president, vice president, every representative, every senator, AND every governor at the same time
06:54:15 <hppavilion[1]> And presumably you'd have to break the governor's line of succession in EVERY state.
06:55:29 <pikhq> Specifically, the law states, and I shit you not, anyone who is Catholic in the line of succession is "naturally dead".
06:55:40 <pikhq> (for purposes of succession)
06:56:51 <hppavilion[1]> So the lieutenant governor, and- just to be sure because rules vary- the President of the Senate, the entire Cabinet, Speaker of the House, and anybody who can make new ones (so the entire state Senate and state House)
06:57:15 <hppavilion[1]> And once you've killed these 10,000+ people at the same time, we're FINALLY screwed
06:57:23 <hppavilion[1]> But we probably have much bigger problems LONG before this
06:58:33 <pikhq> However, there is a workaround for this. I'm pretty sure we could still hold a Constitutional Convention to make an amendment to add someone else to the succession.
07:02:02 <pikhq> One still needs 2/3rds of the states to have functioning legislatures though.
07:02:46 <pikhq> 2/3rds of the states may ask Congress for a convention.
07:02:50 <pikhq> Congress... still has to exist.
07:03:22 <pikhq> That'd be a bit of a mess.
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07:13:41 <izalove> https://imgur.com/r/baduk is there a name for this kind of thing?
07:13:50 <izalove> that kind of collection of pictures
07:14:20 <izalove> i need the name to find it in the imgur api
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07:38:23 <\oren\> pikhq: that's why they need to catch and destroy the fifth column before they can grow to a strength capable of such an attack
07:41:38 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaikbWebnkk
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08:08:20 <wob_jonas> hppavilion[1]: about the line of succession for the president, there's actually a pretty good reason for why that's needed now, since 2010-04 when Lech Kaczyński and a large part of the government of Poland died at the same time from a crashed airplane.
08:10:35 <wob_jonas> It gets even easier if someone wants to deliberately kill members of the government. Mind you, in the 21st century it might get more difficult if members of government eventually get to the habit of just staying at home and teleconferencing with each other (each wearing the top half of an elegant suit because the camera doesn't show their legs) in
08:10:35 <wob_jonas> stead of traveling to meet in person.
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09:18:38 <wob_jonas> The letter e key on this keyboard is repeatedly getting stuck again, so I'm glad I already ordered a new keyboard. I hope it will arrive soon.
09:20:39 <wob_jonas> It has an unusual layout by the way: on the left half it's like a standard 104 key layout so there's no extra key between the letter z and the left shift, but on the right it's like a 105 key layout so the enter key is upside down L-shaped and the backslash key is between the apostrophe and the bottom part of the enter key.
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10:20:13 * boily pokes himself. pretty sure I'm quite solid and substantial.
10:21:36 * oerjan aims a neutrino beam at boily. nope, no substance detected...
10:22:18 <boily> I just happened to be on vacation. perhaps the kimchi unsubstantiated me?
10:22:54 <oerjan> i shall continue to avoid korean food, then.
10:24:39 <oerjan> then i assume it was a seoulful experience.
10:31:16 <boily> I'm already missing the food over there. it was delicious...
10:31:30 * boily thwacks oerjan. 0.9 shachafs.
10:32:01 <oerjan> need to get you back in mapole shape, you know.
10:32:54 <boily> I'm not yet quite synchronized with my current timezone.
10:33:25 <oerjan> i almost am! for once.
10:33:43 <oerjan> well, in a couple days, maybe.
10:37:29 <oerjan> @tell gamemanj <gamemanj> I do not recommend posting these estimates into IRC. <-- approx. 5 seconds after she actually started singing hth
10:37:46 <boily> we had a singer in this chännel?
10:37:56 <oerjan> no, on youtube, linked by \oren\
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11:13:03 <int-e> do re mi fa sol la ti do!
11:13:31 <boily> int-ello, izellove.
11:13:46 <boily> do ré mi fa sol la si do.
11:14:07 <int-e> izalove: there are several versions of this
11:18:18 <int-e> Wow, someone sanitized the topic. Now where do I put my "The opinionated channel."? I'll just let it float here, I guess.
11:19:06 -!- izalove has set topic: free space for advertising.
11:21:15 -!- boily has set topic: The Global Hub for Esoteric Programming Language Design and Sanity | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
11:21:27 -!- izalove has set topic: boring topics are boring.
11:24:23 <int-e> wooo I'm scared!!!1 "Failure to complete your site submission may result in the cancellation of this offer, making it difficult for your customers to locate you on the web." [this is a spam mail directed at domain registrant, some SEO thing maybe but it's using a surprising level of fear instead of new and shiny for selling its services... sample: http://www.uia.org/content/1346 )
11:24:40 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Global Hub for Esoteric Programming Language Design and Sanity | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
11:24:47 -!- izalove has set topic: hi i'm oerjan knoxville welcome to jackass.
11:24:57 <int-e> (and of course it's quite possible that they offer no service at all)
11:25:36 <oerjan> izalove: don't remove the links. especially not the log links, they're mandated by freenode.
11:25:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
11:26:43 -!- izalove has set topic: fuck the sisters ehrm i mean the system.
11:27:40 -!- int-e has set topic: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
11:28:32 -!- izalove has set topic: links available at http://goatse.info/.
11:28:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
11:28:43 <Hoolootwo> what do you mean that the logs are mandated by freenode? I'm on other channels without log links
11:28:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +t.
11:29:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Global Hub for Esoteric Programming Language Design and Sanity | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
11:29:10 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
11:29:15 <int-e> izalove: no, you killed that particular fun right there
11:29:44 <Hoolootwo> goatse'ing people is pretty much universally evil and bad
11:29:55 <Hoolootwo> we try to stay away from evil stuff here
11:29:57 <int-e> I thought that site was dead
11:30:36 <oerjan> Hoolootwo: if the channel is publicly logged, it must be noted in the channel topic.
11:30:39 <izalove> i don't think anyone in this channel was tech savvy enough to know that link
11:30:53 <izalove> i thought anyone in this channel was tech savvy enough to know that link
11:31:48 <Hoolootwo> izalove, you'd hope, but that is really not at all the topic of discussion here ever and doesn't belong in a topic
11:32:31 <oerjan> fwiw i hadn't even noticed the goatse link when i decided i'd put +t if izalove did it _one_ more time hth
11:32:50 <int-e> I don't think oerjan minded the link all that much... the problem was removing the other (useful, partially mandated) links even after it was explicitely stated that they should remain in the topic.
11:32:55 <izalove> oerjan: what kind of mod are you?
11:32:56 <int-e> izalove: you had plenty of warning.
11:33:09 <izalove> literally nobody told me to stop
11:33:14 <oerjan> izalove: i believe reverting your action counts as a warning.
11:33:58 <izalove> oerjan: would it kill you to tell people "stop doing this or i'll +t"?
11:34:04 <oerjan> izalove: i told you not to remove the links.
11:34:42 <oerjan> izalove: sorry, i was too busy resisting the temptation to just kick hth
11:38:22 <oerjan> but seriously, when you're obviously willfully irritating people getting warned is a privilege, not a right.
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15:17:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniPig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49741 * Challenger5 * (+3068) Created page with "'''Minipig''', or MP, is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Challenger5]]. It is a minimalistic stack-based language that was pretty much designed in under..."
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15:55:53 <HackEgo> [U+235D APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL UP SHOE JOT]
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16:56:13 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Tdjc8An5w
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17:26:44 <fizzie> shachaf: I think it was a week around the 20th or so, can't quite recall.
17:27:05 <fizzie> I'm in Italy for an offsite now.
17:28:13 <fizzie> There's someone new to the team starting today, must be a nice way to welcome them with everyone else in Italy having fun.
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17:47:43 <Taneb> It's been a long time since I've been in Italy... coming up to a month and a half
17:50:17 <shachaf> I think I haven't been to Italy for almost two decades.
17:50:35 <Taneb> shachaf, you should fix that
17:50:46 <Taneb> Maybe you should go to Italy the next time I'm in California!
17:51:12 <Taneb> Because Italy is lovely
17:51:18 <shachaf> I think I need to be here to give you bad Magic: The Gathering cards.
17:51:36 <fizzie> izalove: Somewhere around Lake Garda.
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17:52:26 <fizzie> I saw Gardaland, it was one of the activities for today.
17:53:30 <izalove> not staying the whole day at gardaland? what kind of sick perversion is this?
17:53:32 <fizzie> I went on a boat trip to Isola del Garda instead.
17:53:46 <fizzie> I mean, I saw it from a bus, driving by.
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17:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniPig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49742&oldid=49741 * Challenger5 * (+321)
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17:58:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniPig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49743&oldid=49742 * Challenger5 * (+0) Fixed the category link ~~~~
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17:59:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniPig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49744&oldid=49743 * Challenger5 * (+0) Fixed the category link ~~~~
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18:24:38 <izalove> i have a list with n words. what's the complexity of finding all the words with damerau levenshtein distance at most k from a certain word?
18:26:39 <Taneb> I *want* to say O(n), or O(n*m) where m is the average word length, but I'm not sure
18:27:11 <izalove> O(n) means you can compute the distance in O(1)
18:28:41 <Taneb> If all the words are the same length, it'd be O(m) with constant m
18:29:08 <Taneb> Effectively constant, nonetheless, assuming it's only the number of words you're varying
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18:37:07 <quintopia> izalove: pretty slow if k>1, even with lots of memory and fast memoization
18:39:22 <quintopia> It has been shown that the Levenshtein distance of two strings of length n cannot be computed in time O(n2 - ε) unless the strong exponential time hypothesis is false.
18:41:39 <quintopia> there are some optimizations of course, where you stop trying to find the distance as soon as it exceeds k
18:42:08 <quintopia> but that doesnt affect the worst case
18:47:08 <quintopia> but lets just say ive actually tried to do this on a very long list and it took days.
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19:13:01 <wob_jonas> int-e: I am also getting some very sophisticated spam these days. some spammers are really upping their game.
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19:20:04 <izalove> if i have two 20 characters strings
19:20:11 <izalove> and their distance is at most 5
19:20:25 <izalove> how many characters are in the correct order?
19:22:14 <izalove> ignore that, it doesn't make things simpler
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19:48:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniPig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49745&oldid=49744 * Challenger5 * (+13) Changed
19:49:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniPig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49746&oldid=49745 * Challenger5 * (+0)
19:49:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49747&oldid=49654 * Challenger5 * (+16) Added by language
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20:02:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49748&oldid=49683 * Challenger5 * (+14)
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23:00:56 <\oren\> shifting left by a negative number doesn't shift right! WHYYYYYY
23:04:07 -!- boily has joined.
23:06:06 <\oren\> `cc int main(){printf("%d",0xfff<<-1);}
23:07:35 <olsner> pretty sure it's undefined behavior
23:07:39 <olsner> enjoy your nasal demons
23:07:41 <boily> he\\oren\, hellolsner.
23:07:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: RELCOME: not found
23:07:53 <\oren\> `cc int main(){printf("%d",0xfff>>-1);}
23:08:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome: not found
23:08:29 <shachaf> I thought that one was defined.
23:08:46 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:09:03 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:09:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wat: not found
23:09:23 <HackEgo> ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው።
23:09:42 <\oren\> is that ethiopian or something
23:10:13 <shachaf> it's messing up my terminal, that's for sure
23:10:43 <boily> that one's mine ^^
23:12:37 <FreeFull> It isn't messing up my terminal
23:13:31 <boily> it's the first sentence of the Amharic version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_(food)
23:15:33 <\oren\> I am sooo close to figuring out what's wrong with my hangul code
23:16:13 <_46bit> Hangul sounds a marvellous name for a programming language.
23:18:18 <boily> I was in Korea. completely surrounded by hangul everywhere. it tends to grow on you after a few days...
23:18:34 <\oren\> I at least did finish the hangul jamo variants that will be used to piece together each hangul.
23:19:00 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/hangulparts.htm
23:19:02 <shachaf> boily: You got a hangul tattoo?
23:20:20 <boily> not yet. if I get one, it probably will be the original hangul as devised by King Sejong's court.
23:20:56 <\oren\> we have two variants of each vowel, one which doesn't leave room for a final, one which does.
23:22:47 <\oren\> we have several variants of each initial consonant
23:23:37 <\oren\> but I think there are at least two variants that need to be made, for use with horizontal vowels
23:24:51 <\oren\> we already have the variants for vertical, and backwards L shaped consonants
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23:28:56 <HackEgo> alakra: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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23:56:59 <hppavilion[1]> According to FiveThirtyEight, 3% of US adults (a larger percentage of gun owners exclusively) account for 133M out of 265M guns (265 megaguns)
23:57:20 <hppavilion[1]> By my math, each one owns slightly more than 18 on average (their numbers say 17 for some reason)
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00:06:12 <FreeFull> You have to take into consideration that a lot of gun owners are likely to own multiple guns
00:09:29 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: From my knowledge of gun owners, that seems about right TBH.
00:09:39 <pikhq> Decent number of people are gun collectors.
00:10:07 * pikhq has a friend with ~50 interesting firearms. ... And no ammunition.
00:10:47 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I want to be an ammunition collector; lots of bullets, no way to use them
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00:40:41 <HackEgo> I think you mean "@tell boily coily! webek!" instead?
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03:54:57 <Sgeo> http://www.saveie6.com/
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05:03:31 <pikhq> Best I can do is write things to render tolerably in IE6.
05:03:55 <pikhq> The trick is to use a conditional comment and hide CSS from IE6 entirely.
05:04:39 <pikhq> (and acknowledge that the "no CSS whatsoever" experience is the best thing to do without going crazy)
05:05:04 <alercah> better is to officially not support IE6
05:05:24 <alercah> http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
05:05:38 <shachaf> Or whatever the current version is
05:06:00 <pikhq> alercah: Though I generally agree, I still prefer having light CSS.
05:07:14 <pikhq> That said... Write it basically like that, give it a tiny CSS file (like, 1k or less TBH), prevent IE6 from seeing CSS at all, and voila. You basically support everything.
05:07:37 <pikhq> And the only reason to prevent IE6 from seeing CSS at all is because IE6 CSS is spectacularly broken.
05:09:50 <shachaf> pikhq: just add "better" to the beginning of the domain name hth
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06:30:51 <pikhq> "If you transfer a Pokémon to Pokémon Bank and then on to Pokémon Sun or Pokémon Moon from Pokémon Omega Ruby, Pokémon Alpha Sapphire, Pokémon X, or Pokémon Y, you’ll be unable to transfer it back to Pokémon Omega Ruby, Pokémon Alpha Sapphire, Pokémon X, or Pokémon Y."
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06:50:27 <izalove> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/
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09:48:29 <oerjan> . o O ( `learn_append shachaf He has a terminal disease. )
10:02:39 <oerjan> . o O ( Dsching! Dsching! Dschinghis Khan! )
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10:16:27 <lambdabot> quintopia said 9h 35m 40s ago: coily! webek!
10:16:53 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAA! I am even more unsynchronized as usual!
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10:43:27 <HackEgo> applicative functor//Applicative functors are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
10:45:18 <boily> wait. aren't those supposed to be monads?
10:57:26 <HackEgo> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
10:57:29 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
10:58:55 <oerjan> (they're actually both true hth)
11:15:06 <Taneb> Can someone explain the "monads" one?
11:22:38 <boily> `cuplrits wisdom/monads
11:22:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cuplrits: not found
11:22:45 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/monads
11:22:47 <HackEgo> shachaf elliott oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan shachaf Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover ais523 ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
11:23:03 <boily> Tanelle. I believe oerjan can hth
11:35:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Total Vacuum * New user account
11:37:31 <Taneb> That sounds like it could be an actual person
11:41:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49749&oldid=49738 * Total Vacuum * (+131)
11:42:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Total Vacuum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49750 * Total Vacuum * (+21) Created page with "Under construction..."
11:45:23 <boily> it is an actual person!
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12:02:48 <oerjan> Taneb: boily believes wrong. try shachaf instead hth
12:03:09 <HackEgo> <shachaf> revert 5134 \ <elliott> find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El \'(is|are) just\' | xargs rm \ <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <oerjan> revert \ <oerjan> rm wisdom/monads \ <shachaf> echo \'Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.\' > wisdom/monads \ <Phantom_Hoover> revert \ <Phantom_Hoover> echo \' Much like Mo
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13:00:36 <myname> for the record, i can define hauling destiations in my dflike and i can even limit what to put there
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13:35:04 <wob_jonas> \oren\: you're finally working on hangul support? great!
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15:21:21 <digin4> I feel like a zombie :/
15:22:40 <HackEgo> digin4: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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15:23:38 <Kobalt> This vetter work, its alive i hope |
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15:24:59 <moonythedwarf> digin4: have you made any esolangs as of now? just curious
15:25:15 <digin4> no just joined to learn
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15:31:08 <moonythedwarf> im thinking of the plausibility of writing a irc bot in befunge (With another program acting as the interface, obviously)
15:32:39 <ais523> it's written in befunge-98 without the need of another program to act as the interface
15:32:52 <ais523> befunge-98 probably has the best library support of any esolang
15:32:57 <ais523> and that includes things like network connections
15:34:16 <ais523> fizzie: fungot is down
15:34:29 <ais523> (not that we necessarily need it up, but I didn't know whether you knew or not)
15:36:08 <moonythedwarf> external program for irc interface because i dont want to write a entire IRC interface in befunge (aka, a pain)
15:37:26 <ais523> the IRC protocol is really simpel
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16:15:05 <\oren\> Ok, so the first step is working: it reads in BDF characters and converts them to fixed size bitmap images in an ad-hoc format
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16:16:05 <\oren\> The next step is for it to grab the correct bitmap images and overlay them for each hangul character
16:16:38 <\oren\> and then those characters must be converted back into BDF format to be inserted into the font
16:17:18 <\oren\> unless I can figure out the whole TTF compound character thing in fontforge, which I doubt
16:17:28 <\oren\> this will be the method I'll be using
16:18:04 <\oren\> this method will result in a very large font file, but space is cheap these days so i think it will be fine
16:20:18 <\oren\> 16x18 actually, but yeah small
16:20:42 <\oren\> and in the ttf they will be converted to an outline
16:21:07 <\oren\> the size is linear in the number of corners
16:21:25 <FireFly> how do you edit your glyphs, out of curiosity?
16:21:49 <\oren\> I use fontforge, plus some custom programs
16:22:05 <wob_jonas> \oren\: so you haven't figured out yet how to make a bitmap ttf?
16:22:30 <wob_jonas> also, apparently some people want to make a new (more modern) font editor system instead of fontforge
16:22:52 <FireFly> I edited my bitmap fonts in generic pixel art tools, with a little script (eventually) to convert it to BDF
16:23:17 <\oren\> I would have to use fontforge to convert it to ttf still though
16:24:02 <FireFly> Probably, yes, unless there's other tools to convert BDF to TTF
16:24:52 <\oren\> I eventually will figure out how to write my own
16:25:30 <\oren\> the requirements for mine are strange since the conversion is done in a way that preserves the pixelation
16:25:51 <\oren\> as opposed to most fonts which want smooth edges
16:26:17 <\oren\> I have some black magic way of making fontforge do that
16:27:03 <shachaf> Yesterday I went to a talk about METAFONT.
16:29:21 <\oren\> shachaf: METAFONT is h.p.lovecraft level black magic
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17:05:48 <HackEgo> olist 1053: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:03:46 <fizzie> shachaf: I lied, it's the week before.
18:18:22 <fizzie> Yeah, I heard ais523. I'll re-fungot once I get home, currently in a train from Gatwick.
18:18:53 <fizzie> shachaf: I answered your question the other day, when you weren't looking.
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18:33:24 <shachaf> fizzie: I remember that you answered the question but I don't remember the answer.
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18:45:05 <hppavilion[1]> ¬(['muffin man'.i); ?(['muffin man'].ü) ↠ ?[id];; # translates to "I do not know the muffin man. Do you know the muffin man? If so, please tell me about the muffin man."
18:47:06 <myname> how is muffin man object of id?
18:47:59 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: my mental alarm for a likely race condition just went off
18:48:22 <ais523> good software development practices would imply replacing this with "I do not know the muffin man. Please tell me all you know about the muffin man."
18:48:49 <hppavilion[1]> Not 'I.D.' but the word 'id' (like 'ego and superego)
18:49:06 <hppavilion[1]> *(like 'ego' and 'superego', but not at all related to that meaning)
18:49:13 <ais523> that way you aren't checking for knowledge of the muffin man separately from asking about it, which means you don't have to worry about what happens if the muffin man changes status
18:49:13 <ais523> that said, I don't think there's an actual bug in this case, just a code smell
18:49:41 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: say I write "does the user have permission to read this file? if so, give the user a copy of the file"
18:49:50 <ais523> that contains a bug, and one that's been widely exploited
18:49:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But this is designed to be a language for communication rather than a programming language
18:50:01 <ais523> if the user has any ability to change the referent of "this file" mid-program (say with a symlink)
18:50:27 <ais523> strong AIs will probably just learn English
18:50:34 <ais523> even weak AIs are decent at understanding it at this point
18:50:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, even if they learn English, that still leads to confusion and ambiguity)
18:51:15 <myname> you could as well just wrote prolog, you know
18:51:45 <hppavilion[1]> It would also be nice for talking to people where you don't share a conventional language, because it's symbolic enough that you should be able to learn it without brute memorization
18:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> (The only issue is that things like 'muffin man' don't translate easily)
18:52:12 <ais523> myname: it's hard to express "I do not know the muffin man" in Prolog without making an explicit statement about your knowledge status, which would be weird and unidiomatic
18:52:59 <ais523> like, you can express "My knowledge state about the muffin man is that the muffin man is unknown" in Prolog, but it looks just as weird in Prolog as it does in English
18:53:11 <ais523> and would only serve as an answer to a question if the question were formulated in a similar way
18:53:46 <ais523> more idiomatic would be to make no statement about the muffin man, which in Prolog means something along the lines of "if you asked me about the muffin man, I wouldn't have anything to say"
18:54:07 <ais523> (and any question about the muffin man would be replied to with an answer that meant the information was not available)
18:54:57 <myname> by the way, are there any fans of the language curry here?
18:55:34 <hppavilion[1]> A simple conversation would be [2]> ?(['muffin man'].ü);; [1]> ¬(['muffin man'.i); ?(['muffin man'].ü) ↠ ?[id];; [2]> &['muffin man'] = ['mulberry lane'];;
18:56:37 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Also, 'id' necessarily means 'the last value directly used'
18:56:54 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm not really interested in hyperlegalistic conlangs
18:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> I just think it's fun because it looks like what a muggle would expect talking to a computer to be like
18:57:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: if so, why don't use it in ?() already?
18:58:11 <hppavilion[1]> (the literal reading of "?(['cat'].ü) ↠ ?[id];;" is actually "query meaning 'cat' dependent query current user knows meaning 'cat' end
18:59:03 <myname> instead of mentioning muffin man there
19:00:04 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, because id is- or at least was- local to the message, so that things don't constantly conflict
19:00:26 <hppavilion[1]> (You can't use 'id' to reference a value used 30 lines ago, basically)
19:01:48 <hppavilion[1]> (I can actually drop the 'i' in "['muffin man'].i", too; if you just say "x." it's assumed that you mean yourself)
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19:14:12 <fungot> oerjan: i'd call the lambda with the parameters in the url above.
19:15:09 <oerjan> fungot: surprisingly, i don't think anyone's mentioned a url since i joined.
19:15:09 <fungot> oerjan: shutting that down kills the program
19:15:42 <oerjan> fungot: well yes, that's usually the point of shutting down.
19:15:42 <fungot> oerjan: have you tasted fnord 99% cocoa chocolate? ;p it might make sense
19:16:07 <oerjan> fungot: not to my knowledge, but maybe it was fnord without me noticing.
19:16:07 <fungot> oerjan: you're completely destroying a lot of cases where the result is a big fan of the language
19:16:57 <fungot> int-e: that is the sense that you can't already do? ( the interface to it.
19:17:11 <int-e> fungot: try again?
19:17:11 <fungot> int-e: how can anyone believe in something" stance is incredibly irritating at times, and it seems so abstract compared to c
19:25:07 <\oren\> c is the basis of all reality
19:25:27 <\oren\> well, under c is machine code
19:25:32 <oerjan> that explains why so much of reality seems undefined
19:26:04 <\oren\> that's because the machine code is unreadable
19:28:08 <oerjan> nah, it's because each of us runs reality through a different c compiler, with different undefined behaviors
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19:57:34 <ais523> hmm, I'm testing out a sentence in Google Translate, translating into German
19:57:47 <ais523> if I write the input sentence in lowercase, it translates "you" into "Sie"
19:58:00 <ais523> if I capitalise the first letter, I get "Du" as the translation instead
19:58:23 <ais523> this does not really fill me with confidence
19:58:38 <ais523> (from the actual original sentence, it probably translates to "Man")
19:59:40 <oerjan> what's the first word?
20:00:09 <oerjan> it would be weird for it to consider a sentence more formal if not capitalized...
20:00:25 <ais523> and yes, it struck me that if it's differentiating on that, it has it backwards
20:00:43 <ais523> to be precise, the original was a sentence fragment "you're likely to need a lot more characters to express something in German than you are in Japanese"
20:00:55 <ais523> and I was using it to experiment to see how true the statement was
20:01:14 <ais523> don't we have a translationbot in here somewhere?
20:02:18 <oerjan> HackEgo used to, but the code bitrotted
20:02:37 <oerjan> and then all networking did, i think. hm.
20:03:12 <oerjan> `wget https://www.google.com/
20:03:13 <HackEgo> --2016-09-21 19:03:00-- https://www.google.com/ \ Resolving www.google.com (www.google.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `www.google.com'
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20:09:19 <oerjan> . o O ( Man braucht wahrscheinlich viel mehr Zeichen, um etwas in Deutsch auszudrücken, als in Japanisch. )
20:09:49 <oerjan> if i try to clean up and use Man
20:11:15 <oerjan> hm except that doesn't preserve the original duplication.
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20:11:55 <oerjan> Man braucht wahrscheinlich viel mehr Zeichen, um etwas in Deutsch auszudrücken, als man in Japanisch braucht.
20:12:33 <oerjan> probably shouldn't put the last "braucht" last.
20:12:49 * oerjan needs a native speaker
20:13:11 <shachaf> I don't think I qualify as a native speaker of any language.
20:16:26 <oerjan> Tanta til Beate snur sin gamle plate ennå en gang, og server te med melk (Lap-sang-sou-chong!)
20:20:15 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjEfK-0UhTo
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20:50:15 <HackEgo> olist 1053: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:50:24 <shachaf> wob_jonas: It's already been olisted.
20:50:48 <wob_jonas> has it? I checked the logs and didn't see it, sorry
20:50:49 <ais523> can we program `olist to remember the number it's given as argument
20:51:03 <ais523> and not list if it's already seen an equal or larger number?
20:51:10 <ais523> well it's not my list, and I'm not on it :-P
20:51:35 <ais523> mine is `list I think (although it's not using my original implementation any more and hasn't for years)
20:51:44 <oerjan> well, given that i _saw_ it in the logs...
20:52:30 <HackEgo> date > share/conscripts; culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs
20:52:48 <HackEgo> Sat May 14 12:44:55 UTC 2016
20:52:57 <shachaf> ais523: I don't know that I want it to make a commit for every olist, but it could put something in tmp/
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20:52:59 <ais523> not for a while, it seems
20:53:01 <oerjan> today's girl genius is pretty meta. and with one avatar hauling another...
20:53:15 <ais523> shachaf: commits aren't very expensive, surely
20:53:43 <wob_jonas> yeah, they shouldn't be expensive in sane version control systems
20:53:48 <shachaf> But olists come so frequently that HackEgo might not be able to handle the load.
20:54:12 <ais523> no, OOTS posts don't come that often at all
20:54:24 <shachaf> Anyway they're expensive conceptually, not in terms of computer cost.
20:54:25 <ais523> and a non-unique `olist wouldn't need a commit
20:55:04 * oerjan tweaks ais523's joke detector
20:55:29 <ais523> wait, that was meant to be sarcasm? it doesn't look like it
20:55:55 <shachaf> Yes, it was not serious. olists are very infrequent.
20:56:08 <shachaf> It may have been a joke about HackEgo being very slow nowadays, but I'm not sure.
20:56:20 <FireFly> to be fair, they're a bit more frequent these days than they used to be for a while
20:56:38 <ais523> FireFly: there was a big gap due to the author getting injured
20:56:55 <ais523> apart from that, there's rarely been a gap of more than two weeks except at the end of a book (which always gives a defined date for when the comic will resume)
20:57:04 <oerjan> shachaf: HackEgo has sped up recently
20:57:20 <ais523> it tends to be slower if nobody's used it for a while
20:57:30 <ais523> maybe it has to swap back into memory or something
20:57:33 <oerjan> ais523: even considering that.
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20:58:16 <FireFly> so we need to use it more often to make it less slow? hmm
20:58:28 <FireFly> subtle encouragement to use the service
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21:01:02 <wob_jonas> In http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3312 , has the cop chosen this bar because she's got dimmers installed there so she can dim the lights when she says something dramatic, just like Tarquin does in his palacE?
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21:04:13 <gamemanj> Like, three slices of smokebomb, one of edible pie.
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21:22:00 <HackEgo> tuttobene: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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21:25:15 <tuttobene> When writing research papers about programming, does a manual of writing mechanics for this field exist, such as the APA Manual of Style in the field of Psychology?
21:25:41 <ais523> I haven't used anything like that, I've just tried to imitate the style of typical papers
21:26:00 <wob_jonas> I've no idea, I don't write such papers.
21:26:03 <ais523> most programming papers are conference papers anyway rather than journal papers, so people hold them to a slightly lower standard due to the need to make deadlines being larger
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21:30:05 <wob_jonas> unless you need it for a degree or something
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21:33:04 <tuttobene> i guess the need to write papers comes when something has to be explained
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22:04:19 * FireFly points local irssi users at the recent global notice
22:05:20 <oerjan> hm now my backscroll is working strangely, only half the window scrolls...
22:05:41 <oerjan> oh and my line overwrote FireFly's :(
22:05:59 <FireFly> It's okay, I rarely say anything of importance anyway
22:06:27 <oerjan> ok this bandaid patch is horribly buggy.
22:06:31 <ais523> FireFly: you just did, though
22:06:50 <shachaf> Not of importance to oerjan, though.
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22:07:44 <FireFly> The better alternative would probably be to upgrade, of course
22:07:58 <FireFly> over applying the hacky patch
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22:09:24 <oerjan> FireFly: i don't control this server.
22:10:44 <HackEgo> peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. his reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
22:13:46 <olsner> does anything in the wisdom database?
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22:21:21 <oerjan> ic, the problem doesn't appear if i don't use tmux.
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22:23:12 <int-e> hmm I just pulled Debian's security update... (cf. https://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/2016/msg00251.html )
22:24:45 * int-e is trying to figure out whether oerjan is connected to irssi-0.8.20 in screen somehow, wondering whether this combination should be avoided.
22:26:01 <oerjan> int-e: i'm still on 0.8.17, using the bandaid script
22:26:14 <oerjan> i'm not in screen either.
22:26:31 <oerjan> it gave me trouble in tmux.
22:26:54 <int-e> AH, I missed a negation there, funny how that totally distorts the meaning of sentences...
22:28:27 <int-e> (this negation: "[...] if i don't use tmux.")
22:31:02 * oerjan found the irc channel for the admins of this server. they seem a bit idle.
22:31:27 <oerjan> (the one i'm running irssi from)
22:31:51 <int-e> is there any idlerpg bot running? :P
22:32:31 <int-e> http://idlerpg.net/
22:33:00 <ais523> I didn't realise it had a website
22:33:04 -!- augur has joined.
22:33:32 <ais523> it also seems a lot more involved than the typical idling competitions
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22:36:24 <int-e> myname: to clarify, I meant to ask oerjan whether there is such a bot in that channel he found.
22:39:13 <oerjan> i doubt it. i'm the only one speaking. someone (who is also idle) opped me automatically when i joined.
22:39:55 <ais523> hmm, idlerpg gives a much larger penalty for parts than for quits
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22:42:00 <ais523> has this been mentioned in the channel yet?: http://calesyta.xyz/
22:42:05 <ais523> according to proggit, it's an Argentinian esolang design contest
22:42:19 <ais523> "Concurso Argentino de Lenguajes Esotéricos y Tarpits", right does seem like one…
22:43:00 <int-e> ais523: /part is almost definitely a manual action; quits also happen due to disconnects, reboots, etc.
22:43:31 <ais523> "Valoramos que el lenguaje tenga ideas novedosas o interesantes. A nadie le interesa otra variante de Brainf*ck."
22:43:39 <ais523> int-e: but not getting disconnected is the whole point of idling competitions
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22:45:22 <ais523> oerjan: the people running this seem fairly familiar with esolang design :-D
22:45:50 <int-e> ais523: I guess parting a channel sends a much stronger message than quitting... not sure it's really saying as much as 200 characters of text though ;-)
22:46:26 <ais523> you can fit way more than 200 characters in a part message (or a quit message, for that matter)
22:46:30 <int-e> anyway, I really recall IdleRPG it because, as you said, it is surprisingly elaborate for an idling game.
22:46:59 * int-e typos too much, good night.
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23:11:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA To Infinity!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49751 * Tanner Swett * (+3677) Create page
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23:20:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49752&oldid=42677 * Tanner Swett * (+449) /* Related languages */ Add "SMETANA To Infinity!"
23:31:46 <tswett> So, I've created SMETANA To Infinity!
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23:35:38 <tswett> It's like SMETANA, but you can specify infinitely many instructions.
23:36:21 <tswett> Here's an example program:
23:36:46 <tswett> Step n. Go to step 3n + 1. Step 2n. Go to step n. Step 1. Go to step 1000000. Step 4. Stop.
23:39:05 <olsner> does it choose the most specific step or how does it choose between Step 2n and Step n?
23:39:49 <tswett> It chooses whichever one was specified last within the program.
23:40:04 <tswett> Since Step 2n was specified later, it overwrites Step n for even n.
23:40:47 <tswett> The Collatz conjecture is equivalent to the statement that my example halts if you replace 1000000 with any positive integer.
23:41:42 <oerjan> tswett: i claim approximate plagiarism hth
23:42:13 <oerjan> (i posted something called SMETANA+1 way back on the sange.fi mailing list)
23:42:56 <olsner> but that's so long ago it probably never happened
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23:45:52 <ais523> tswett: is there any way to make a good fizzbuzz with this using "step 3n", "step 5n"?
23:46:58 <tswett> Step n. Output character n. Step 3n. Output character 101. Step 5n. Output character 102. Step 15n. Output character 103. Step 101. Stop.
23:47:27 <tswett> I can do a little better than that.
23:47:41 <oerjan> tswett: i think my version required step expressions to be non-overlapping, though.
23:49:38 <tswett> Step n. Swap step 1 with step 1. Step 2n. Output character n. Step 10n. Output character 102. Step 6n. Output character 101. Step 30n+1. Output character 102. Step 201. Stop.
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00:07:26 <ais523> it strikes me that a decimal conversion function would be fairly hard in that language
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00:11:31 <oerjan> hm i suddenly realized you can do collatz functions with just GOTO there
00:11:55 <oerjan> i didn't know that back in 2002 or when it was, i thought SWAP was necessary for TC-ness of it.
00:13:31 <oerjan> (i had a version with more elaborate labels that even then i realized needed only GOTO)
00:15:17 <oerjan> the admin upgraded irssi on some of the servers, but not this one yet for some reason. going to bed ->
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00:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i 's/\.$/ and rejecting scientific papers./' wisdom/peer
00:37:40 <HackEgo> peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. his reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections and rejecting scientific papers.
00:40:50 <shachaf> did you just copy the joke at the beginning of the sentence
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01:05:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:05:23 <HackEgo> peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. his reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
01:05:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe we mention how e serves on US juries as well?)
01:05:54 <shachaf> what someone can do is fix the awkward grammar
01:06:11 <shachaf> No, you don't need to stuff every flavor of ice cream into one cone.
01:06:29 <HackEgo> peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. His reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
01:07:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:07:15 <shachaf> That wisdom entry is lowercase on purpose.
01:07:58 <shachaf> There was a discussion when oerjan first added it.
01:08:04 <HackEgo> 2016-06-11 <oerjan> learn peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people\'s irc connections. \ 2016-09-15 <shachaf> slwd peer//s#.#. his reviews are in high demand, but# \ 2016-09-15 <shachaf> revert \ 2016-09-15 <shachaf> slwd peer//s#\\.#. his reviews are in high demand, but# \ 2016-09-21 <hppavilion[1]> ` s
01:09:01 <shachaf> you are like an elephant in a china shop
01:09:19 <hppavilion[1]> OH, is 'his' short for something? Probably "Health Information Service"?
01:10:34 <shachaf> I hate reading IRC logs of myself.
01:17:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49753&oldid=31396 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */ deadlink
01:37:34 <tuttobene> Whenever I try a code line that fails, then another one which fails, and so on, I comment those lines with a label "N/G". And I keep those lines; so as to know what not to try again. Thus my source file is not "clean"---but it's hella powerful for maintenance/refactoring.
01:44:30 <tswett> tuttobene: I don't think I've heard of that practice before.
01:45:44 <tswett> It seems like rather than saying "I tried doing A, B, and C all together, and the combination didn't work", it would be more useful to say "do not do B, because that won't work".
01:46:16 <tuttobene> hm. From Don Knuth, if i remember correctly, idea of Literary programming.
01:48:09 <tswett> So now I'm pondering how you could convert 1-bit Brainfuck to SMETANA To Infinity!.
01:48:39 <tuttobene> what makes me do that is usually poorly written documentation. Because the only way to solve an ambiguity of definitions is to try the meanings of the thing.
01:49:03 <FireFly> tuttobene: literate programming? I think it's about interspersing a program with prose describing it
01:49:40 <tuttobene> FireFly: yes, "Literate" programming
01:49:46 <FireFly> GHC supports .lhs files where only programs starting with > (IIRC) are actually interpreted.. so basically the default mode is "comment" and you have to opt-in for code, rather than the other way around
01:51:36 <tswett> I'm thinkin' you'd use the first part of memory to contain the BF program, and the remainder to contain the tape. Each tape cell would be realized as a few STI! memory cells.
01:52:05 <tswett> You could keep track of the content using a couple of instructions like this:
01:52:38 <tswett> Step 1000. Go to step 1. Step 1001. Go to step 2.
01:52:43 <tswett> If you want to flip the memory cell, that's:
01:52:52 <tswett> Step 1002. Swap step 1000 with step 1001.
01:53:21 <ais523> tswett: doesn't that only let you flip a specific, hardcoded cell? rather than being able to index?
01:53:52 <tswett> Yeah, memory location 1002 will be only for flipping that one cell.
01:54:01 <tswett> If you want to flip the cell at 2000, then jump to 2002 instead.
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01:55:03 <tswett> I think we could say...
01:55:21 <tswett> Step 3 always contains an instruction that means "Go to step [whichever one flips the current cell]".
01:55:33 <ais523> now I'm heavily reminded of The Amnesiac From Minsk
01:55:39 <tswett> Step 4 always says "Go to step [whichever one moves us left]", step 5 always says "go to step [whichever one moves us right]".
01:55:47 <ais523> because the basic issue is that once you've flipped a cell, you lose track of where you were
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01:56:05 <ais523> but of course you can work around this via holding the state that keeps track of the instruction pointer elsewhere
01:56:38 <tswett> And each BF tape cell contains code to swap something else into all of those places.
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01:57:57 <tswett> Steps 1003, 1004, and 1005 could be the "storage locations" for the steps that are intended to be placed at locations 3, 4, and 5.
01:59:03 <tswett> Step 1006 can be the "entry point" for flipping the current cell. It will look like... "Step 1006. Swap step 1000 with step 1001. Step 1007. Go to step 6."
01:59:57 <tswett> We can say that step 6 is sort of the standard return location.
02:01:58 <tswett> If step 1008 is the entry point for moving right, it'll say something like... "Step 1008. Swap step 3 with step 1003. Step 1009. Swap step 2003 with step 3. Step 1010. Swap step 4 with step 1004. Step 1011. Swap step 2004 with step 4. Step 1012. Swap step 5 with step 1005. Step 1013. Swap step 2005 with step 5. Step 1014. Go to step 6."
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02:02:19 <tswett> tuttobene: who said there was something wrong with it?
02:04:22 <tswett> Step 1015 will be the entry point for moving left, and steps 1015 through 1021 will be analogous. But ignore the fact that the tape cell at step 1000 is the leftmost one...
02:08:51 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see 'this statement is a lie' Fawlty Tower plotted
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02:50:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA To Infinity!/brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49754 * Tanner Swett * (+4378) Created page with "A tape of 1-bit memory cells can be implemented like this: # We assume that steps 1 through 6 are laid out like this: # # 1 through 3: The desired return location for an o..."
02:57:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Calesyta * New user account
02:58:45 <ais523> huh, it's the people behind the esolang contest
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04:28:05 <izalove> my new isp blocks thepiratebay and a bunch of torrent related sites but i can still seed and download torrents
04:28:39 <pikhq> It's somewhat harder to block BitTorrent itself.
04:29:07 <pikhq> Not impossible, but you need to do traffic analysis rather than just block some hosts or IP addresses.
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04:53:16 <hppavilion[1]> (ISPs should never, EVER be allowed to filter internet)
04:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: The fact that the ISP can legally do that indicates a problem
04:54:04 <pikhq> I agree, but it's pretty common.
04:54:29 <pikhq> I can at least understand it with blocking port 25, though.
05:00:56 <hppavilion[1]> I'm watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0 (the talk where Guy Steele only let himself use 1-syllable words and n-syllable words defined in terms of previous words)
05:01:35 <hppavilion[1]> I was about to say he slipped up, then I remembered he defined plurals earlier
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06:50:58 <izalove> i just found the best subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/PaidForWinRAR/
06:53:01 <izalove> ok i was overly excited by the name but the actual posts aren't that funny
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07:05:39 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwiFl6w5fUE
07:07:40 <\oren\> polish vocals in a touhou song? what sorcery is this?
07:08:36 <\oren\> hooray for global cultural mixing!
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07:44:42 <hppavilion[1]> (I have yet to encounter <http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlphaBitch> at my high school... in fact, I haven't encountered ANY students at school with any /semblance/ of power or even prestige)
07:47:58 <izalove> turns out real life is boring
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07:55:26 <tuttobene> Could someone show me what Unicode U+2055 character looks like in your system?
07:56:18 <pikhq> ⁕ looks like an asterisk in my browser, and a replacement character in my terminal.
07:57:39 <tuttobene> replacement char? something like a dash?
08:03:29 <tuttobene> thanks. I get the asterisk in Gnome char mapper, but a dash in Vim. I think the problem is the font i use in Vim.
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08:46:07 <\oren\> I have that in my font
08:46:18 <\oren\> it's a eight pointed asterisk
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08:56:38 <\oren\> Hmm, I can't draw the correct character for U+2673 in 9x16, so I'm gonna draw it as プラ１
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11:35:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA To Infinity!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49755&oldid=49751 * Oerjan * (+205) /* Computational class */ Thought of this yesterday.
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16:36:40 <int-e> @oeis 7,31,19,25,22,47,23,35,29
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17:03:52 <wob_jonas> how's the hangul glyphs in your font coming along?
17:07:15 <fungot> wob_jonas: and what a kludgy hacks those were. mohkale sent me a fnord
17:07:34 <wob_jonas> fungot: WHAT? you call them kludgy hacks?
17:07:35 <fungot> wob_jonas: as opposed to a list of lists like ( ( a d) is not exactly a cml manual, but it
17:08:45 <ais523> "((a d)" does look like the start of a list of lists, but it was never finished
17:13:58 <fungot> wob_jonas: seems to be also noticeably slower than the native back end, was at transmeta and completely disconnected from scheme for several years despite having properly paid work too.
17:15:09 <wob_jonas> yeah, but how does that get in this fungot theme?
17:15:10 <fungot> wob_jonas: for an example. named-let replaces the need for lambda i am bit lost on how it was put up, i get down to bickering about do versus named let versus whatever else for the newton because dylan didn't fit right at the beginning
17:15:10 <ais523> they were a CPU manufacturer, and wanted Linux to do well
17:15:24 <ais523> because it would mean that there's be no particular reason not to switch your computer to a Transmeta CPU
17:15:50 <ais523> while Windows is the #1 OS, it gives something of an advantage to Intel and to a lesser extent AMD, making it harder for other CPU manufacturers to compete
17:17:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: the part that making modern cpus is incredibly difficult and requires a lot of development cost paid up front before they can sell anything so only the largest companies can do it might also be part of it
17:18:30 <wob_jonas> so after a while everyone but intel and amd gave up making hardware x86 cpus, and amd is having a hard time catching up now too, intel might get the monopoly
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17:26:39 <fizzie> wob_jonas: #scheme, 2006-12-27: <Riastradh> Guillermo Rozas, who revived the C back end, was at Transmeta and completely disconnected from Scheme for several years.
17:41:21 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHReqKRvonE you need to watch this video
17:50:26 <wob_jonas> ohai \oren\, how's the hangul font coming?
17:50:49 <\oren\> idiots. the thing you stand on is a podium, from "pod" = foot. the thing you read your notes from is a lectern from "lectura" = read
17:51:22 <\oren\> but noooo apparently americans call a lectern a podium
17:52:07 <wob_jonas> that's almost like calling diapers nappies
17:52:36 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it's sort of working. I still need to convert back from my ad-hoc bitmap format to BDF
17:53:21 <\oren\> (the ad-hoc bitmap format is simply an array of 16 unsigneds, one for each row of pixels)
17:53:52 <\oren\> yeah i think I'll have it done by midnight today
17:53:55 <wob_jonas> great, then you don't even need to transpose
17:54:16 <wob_jonas> just print it as hexadecimal and put some headers on it
17:54:23 <wob_jonas> possibly reverse the bits or nibbles or bytes
17:54:53 <\oren\> the hard part was designeing the various forms for each jamo
17:57:32 <\oren\> yeah. I'm using different line widths depending on what fits
17:57:50 <\oren\> but I might change to only thin lines, if that looks better
18:02:46 <gamemanj> if anyone calls a lift an "elevator", I'll find out if "overuse of description" is a crime.
18:03:41 <ais523> isn't "elevator" just the en_US name for them?
18:08:32 -!- izalove has set topic: cool, i can change the topic again | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
18:09:54 <\oren\> Ohhh shiyut! Brian Pagliano, the guy who refused to come to a hearing, was held in contempt of congress.
18:10:24 <\oren\> he could serve jailtime for that
18:11:05 <\oren\> wob_jonas: he was served a subpoena to come and testify, but refused to show up
18:11:21 <\oren\> that is itself a crime
18:11:39 <wob_jonas> and they call that "held in contempt of congress"?
18:11:44 <wob_jonas> what does "congress" even mean there?
18:12:19 <\oren\> well the hearing was before the House of Representatives, that is, the lower house of their parliament which they call "congress"
18:12:59 <\oren\> yeah, they wanted to ask him about erasing Hillary's emails
18:13:51 <\oren\> they're really driving the issue into the bedrock
18:13:57 <ais523> \oren\: source? I'd expect this to be all over Reddit because it's the sort of story they love, but I can't see it anywhere on the relevant front pages
18:14:19 <\oren\> ais523: I watched them vote to fdo it about an hour ago
18:14:43 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivw1BDLpdaw
18:14:49 <wob_jonas> fdo? is that another extension of the monad do syntax?
18:14:52 <ais523> ah right, the media probably haven't had a chance to write about it yet
18:15:12 <wob_jonas> we're faster than news sites here on #esoteric? no way
18:15:21 <ais523> well it's almost completely offtopic
18:15:29 <\oren\> yeah. i have an alert that tells me when the house is streaming on youtube
18:15:47 <ais523> you'd expect him to turn up and take the fifth repeatedly, given things that have happened so ar
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18:15:56 <\oren\> so that I can see their governement tear itself apart in real time
18:16:26 <ais523> unfortunately this probably raises the chances of Trump getting elected
18:16:31 <\oren\> ais523: two other people did show up and take the fifth repeatedly
18:17:04 <\oren\> he didn't even bother showing up, and sent a lawyer to say that he was taking the fifth.
18:17:23 <\oren\> that's not really something you're allowed to do unfortunately for him
18:17:57 <wob_jonas> I mean, seriously, ignoring a summons to congress? how can he be that stupid?
18:18:07 <wob_jonas> does he have so much money he's planning to disappear completely?
18:18:55 <\oren\> Also, they subpoena'ed the FBI last week. I think this is a show of power to tell the FBI that they can and will hold the entire FBI in contempt if necessary
18:19:25 <\oren\> they asked to FBI for every scrap of paper they have on hillary clinton
18:20:29 <\oren\> they were mad that the FBI only gave them some select documents that they thought would help
18:21:12 <ais523> congress is Republican-controlled, right? they're probably looking for a scandal about hillary that they can use to help them win the election
18:21:13 <\oren\> and the FBI blacked out a bunch of names and emails from the files, which they werent suppose to
18:22:24 <\oren\> this entire thing is to undermine hillary, and they will probably continue to do it even if she wins
18:23:03 <\oren\> as I said I want to watch the US governement tear itself apart in real time. because it's funny
18:23:53 <\oren\> It's funny to me! I have a sane government
18:24:18 <wob_jonas> it's still not funny. it might have bad effects.
18:24:36 <ais523> unfortunately the US is large enough that it affects the world
18:24:56 <ais523> in the nethack devteam we're seriously debating whether US crypto export regulations prevent us using a good RNG
18:25:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: haven't they changed those crypto export regulations five or ten years ago?
18:25:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes but they still aren't entirely removed
18:25:49 <ais523> with open source programs you're meant to send them a link to the repo, I think
18:26:27 <ais523> closed source has tighter restrictions
18:26:28 <wob_jonas> isn't the limitation now only that you can't export anything to north korea and cuba and iran and whoever they think of embargoing, regardless of whether cryptography is even involved?
18:26:52 <ais523> apparently even the UK has a crypto export restriction, I can't remember the exact details
18:26:58 <ais523> except that it's less restrictive than the US's
18:27:36 <\oren\> keep your server IN cuba, problem solved
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18:27:50 <wob_jonas> so the people with AES tattoos still can't travel on international airplanes?
18:28:03 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no good, then you still can't export to north korea
18:28:04 <\oren\> no laws about IMPORTing crypto FROM cuba right?
18:28:11 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I say keep your server in north korea instead
18:28:16 <gamemanj> not exactly sure how you can get an AES tattoo
18:28:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think the US doesn't allow that either
18:30:03 <wob_jonas> I thought the US stopped with that thing
18:30:21 <wob_jonas> I mean, debian stopped having a separate repository for a version of debian with the crypto stuff stripped ages ago
18:30:55 <gamemanj> meh, everybody who wants crypto will get crypto anyway
18:31:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: http://www.cryptolaw.org/cls2.htm#us
18:31:03 <gamemanj> it's not like export restrictions actually mean anything
18:31:33 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: that part isn't the problem
18:32:25 <gamemanj> I get the feeling that the problem is that although if you exported crypto illegally you'd be fine, if another company's lawyers knew your company was exporting crypto, they'd get annoyed and make a fuss
18:32:40 <ais523> "Unrestricted crypto source code (like most "open source" software) and publicly available commercial source code (like "community source" code) can be exported to any end-user under a license exception without a technical review. BXA (BIS) must be given a copy or the URL of the source code. All other source code can be exported under license exception after a technial review to any non-government end-user. One may not, however, knowlingly export
18:32:42 <ais523> source code to a terrorist country, although source code may be posted on the WWW for downloading without the poster having to check whether it is downloaded from a terrorist country."
18:33:39 <gamemanj> So, basically, they're marking off countries and saying they're "terrorist countries"?
18:33:57 <gamemanj> Now I know where Trump got his lines from.
18:34:34 <gamemanj> Just say "We are at war with country X, and we intend to take the land and add an extra state to America if we win."
18:35:15 <gamemanj> (This is probably a bad idea for several reasons.)
18:36:18 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: by "terrorist coutry" they mean the countries where the terrorists buy military equipment from Russia, not from the US, so the US is pissed and sets embargoes against them so they can't buy weapons from the US later either.
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18:44:24 <ais523> "On 7 January 2011, a minor amendment was made to the EAR (Federal Register Vol. 76, No. 5, p. 1059). Publicly available mass-market encryption object code software (with symmetric key length exceeding 64 bits), and publicly available encryption object code of which the corresponding source code falls under License Exception TSU (i.e., when the source code is publicly available), are no longer subject to the EAR. The amendment includes some minor
18:44:31 <ais523> OK, /that/ seems like it's usable for NetHack
18:47:00 <ais523> I'm reading the actual law behind it now, and it's confusing
18:48:42 <\oren\> gamemanj: he didn'tsay he'd take the land, just the oil under it. but it amounts to the same thing
18:50:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: Europe probably still has stupid agreements remaining from the world war 2 peace treaties limiting producing weapons, and since back in the world war, armies actually used cryptography in wars, maybe it covers crypto stuff too
18:51:15 <ais523> wob_jonas: most of Europe uses the Wassenaar Arrangement
18:51:23 <ais523> which is about things that have both civilian and military purposes
18:51:49 <myname> ais523: could you tell me what the connection to nethack is?
18:51:53 <wob_jonas> "things that have both civilian and miliatry purposes" => that's about most things in the world
18:52:19 <wob_jonas> myname: ais523 distributes a cryptographic random generator with nethack4.
18:52:25 <ais523> myname: a random number generator can be used as a stream cipher, or vice versa
18:52:40 <ais523> if you want to remove various RNG exploits, the RNG needs to be powerful enough that it makes for a fairly good stream cipher
18:53:04 <ais523> and, in fact, using an /actual/ stream cipher is probably better than trying to design one manually
18:53:17 <\oren\> apparently when someon is held in contempt, they have the option to order the sergeant at arms to drag the person to the capitol in chains
18:53:43 <\oren\> this hasn't been done since 1937 but they could do it tomorrow if they wanted
18:53:45 <wob_jonas> right. and you can't just use a crypto random generator from the system libraries because DOS doesn't have one and nethack wants to ... no wait
18:53:46 <ais523> hmm, in the UK it's spelled serjeant at arms for some reason (even though "serjeant" is not a real word in any other context)
18:54:01 <ais523> they normally do nothing, but one time a protester broke into the house of commons
18:54:06 <\oren\> they don't have to go through a coury in that case
18:54:11 <ais523> and the serjeant at arms actually drew his sword on the protester
18:54:19 <\oren\> they can just vote to jail the guy
18:54:30 <ais523> I like to think that he'd been waiting for years for that opportunity
18:54:45 <\oren\> Canada's sergeant at arms shot a terrorist a while ago
18:55:36 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Texck-TbkM
18:55:53 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GofES3-TzJw <- better video
18:57:00 <\oren\> trigger wrning: steven colbert
18:57:57 <myname> on another point, what should i add to the df like after hauling and a workshop system works fine? i will add the concept of rooms next, but i have no clear line after that
18:58:13 <int-e> remember when this channel wasn't about politics? those were good times...
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18:59:18 <gamemanj> myname: Some sort of device that counts the other devices directly adjacent to it (horizontally, diagonally and vertically),
18:59:33 <\oren\> myname: add pots and barrels and other containers
18:59:42 <ais523> int-e: this channel is very rarely about esolangs, unfortunately
18:59:45 <ais523> I prefer it when it is though
19:00:04 <myname> i have barrels and you can brew with seeds (because of lack of plants :D)
19:00:08 <ais523> at this point, I don't really feel comfortable declaring anything in particular offtopic unless it's problematic for another reason, because it's hard to deduce what the topic of the channel even /is/
19:00:09 <gamemanj> if the amount is less than 2, the device should self-destruct, if the amount is more than 3, it should self-destruct, and if there is a space in the area with exactly 3 neighbors,
19:00:16 <gamemanj> it should create a new device there.
19:00:43 <myname> gamemanj: i see what you did there
19:00:44 <gamemanj> (just copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life )
19:00:47 <\oren\> gamemanj: that sounds more like a good behaviour for a monster
19:00:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\, ais523: about dragging in chains or pulling the sword, https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=622 is relevant
19:00:53 <ais523> gamemanj: people who put random game of life impls into their sandbox games normally don't have a large enough playfield to do anything much more interesting than a glider gun
19:00:54 <myname> gamemanj: but that would probably be abused
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19:01:36 <myname> i even have a wannebe dwarf therapist inside
19:01:37 <ais523> well, how large is the actively tracked portion of the world?
19:01:50 <\oren\> a monster that can't move, but simulates a cellular automaton would be fun
19:02:32 <gamemanj> Captain! We're being attacked by a wild glider!
19:02:47 <myname> currently my levels are 60x80, i am.not sure how high i should put it
19:02:48 <\oren\> ideally there would be several species having different rules
19:03:00 <myname> ressources are kind of a concern in smartphones
19:03:33 <gamemanj> (It's pentominoized the right LWSS forward transferral system!)
19:03:34 <myname> it will get tricky when i come to actual monsters
19:03:45 <myname> since i don't reallygot army in df :D
19:04:03 <ais523> gamemanj: I've wanted to create a competitive game set inside the Game of Life universe for a while
19:04:08 <ais523> but couldn't figure out a good way to do it
19:04:19 <ais523> Cubicon comes closer; that's more of an MMO set inside a cellular automaton
19:04:39 <myname> what the hell is cubicon
19:04:55 <ais523> although I'm still not entirely sure the rules are right (especially wrt things like whether there should be a speed of light limit), and I have no clue how to impl it
19:05:06 <ais523> myname: a 3D cellular-automaton-like I was working on
19:05:17 <ais523> I know most of the basic rules but there are various interactions I'm not sure on how they should work
19:05:38 <wob_jonas> but all cellular automatons have a speed of light limit, don't they?
19:05:59 <ais523> that's why I said cellular-automaton-like
19:07:05 <ais523> one thing I was considering was making it into a true automaton
19:07:05 <myname> i still need someone to make graphics for me :(
19:07:09 <ais523> but that might make it a bit less realistic
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19:12:40 <\oren\> myname: try using a DF-like ascii art for now
19:13:12 <myname> i actually try to make it usable :D
19:16:58 <ais523> "Items may be controlled as encryption items even if the encryption is actually performed by the operating system, an external library, a third-party product or a cryptographic processor. If an item uses encryption functionality, whether or not the code that performs the encryption is included with the item, then BIS evaluates the item based on the encryption functionality it uses."
19:17:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's at least consistent, it bites backwards too
19:18:17 <ais523> but this means that a huge proportion of software can't legally be exported from the US without a license
19:18:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: "and that export of non-key recovery financial-specific cryptography is allowed if it can by design only be used for financial applications"
19:18:41 <wob_jonas> can you even imagine cryptography designed to only be used for financial applications?
19:19:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: ship it in object code form with a financial application
19:19:03 <wob_jonas> that would be like guns designed only for sport or only for hunting deer
19:19:17 <ais523> BIS seems to assume that nobody will decompile or modify the products that are shipped
19:20:50 <wob_jonas> it seems like they care for the end products, not the algorithm
19:21:07 <wob_jonas> if that's how it worked, then nethack probably wouldn't be affected, because it's clearly not designed to do cryptography
19:21:19 <wob_jonas> I mean what crazy esolanger would use nethack to implement a cryptography application?
19:21:44 <wob_jonas> that would be like using TeX to implement one
19:21:49 <int-e> "Software A writes to a file system. That file system might be encrypted..."
19:21:55 <ais523> (a) The primary function or set of functions is not any of the following: (1) "Information security"; (2) A computer, including operating systems, parts and components therefor; (3) Sending, receiving or storing information (except in support of entertainment, mass commercial broadcasts, digital rights management or medical records management); or (4) Networking (includes operation, administration, management and
19:21:57 <ais523> provisioning); (b) The cryptographic functionality is limited to supporting their primary function or set of functions; and (c) When necessary, details of the items are accessible and will be provided, upon request, to the appropriate authority in the exporter’s country in order to ascertain compliance with conditions described in paragraphs (a) and (b) above.
19:22:43 <ais523> that's the relevant exemption, but NetHack may fall afoul of (a)(2) and possibly (c)
19:23:13 <wob_jonas> what does "limited to supporting" mean?
19:23:42 <ais523> don't ask me, I didn't write that rule!
19:23:49 <ais523> I also think the rule is fairly incomprehensible
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19:40:40 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ zbadl \ ryyvbgg \ zabdl
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19:41:04 <shachaf> Cale: If you want to sign up for super mega notifications, you can `` echo Cale >> bin/smlist
19:41:57 <Cale> `` echo Cale >> bin/smlist
19:42:29 <shachaf> similarly olist for oots notifications and so on
19:42:33 <HackEgo> bin/aglist \ bin/bardsworthlist \ bin/danddreclist \ bin/dontaskdonttelllist \ bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist \ bin/ehlist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/erflist \ bin/FireFlist \ bin/flist \ bin/idealist \ bin/ioccclist \ bin/keenlist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/listlist \ bin/llist \ bin/makelist \ bin/makelistlist \ bin/makelistlist shachaf \ bin/minimalist
19:42:46 <shachaf> that is a lot more entries than i expected
19:43:10 <shachaf> Cale: You might chet out `list
19:43:16 <ais523> now I'm really curious as to what the listlist is
19:43:31 <ais523> shachaf: you almost baited me into starting a line with `list then :-P
19:44:01 <shachaf> I think it was a notification list for when people add new lists maybe?
19:44:13 <shachaf> Yes, but some lists have wisdom entries to match describing what they are.
19:44:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ set -e \ export LANG=C \ cd /hackenv/bin;exec ls -dF *[lL]ist*
19:44:30 <shachaf> Oh, it's just a list of lists.
19:44:36 <HackEgo> FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ makelistlist shachaf* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ t
19:44:54 <ais523> what did you expect it to be?
19:45:07 <shachaf> 11:44 <shachaf> I think it was a notification list for when people add new lists maybe?
19:45:14 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_of_lists
19:45:54 <ais523> I just realised that that page can reasonably be considered Wikipedia's index
19:46:11 <shachaf> `doag bin/makelistlist shachaf
19:46:13 <HackEgo> 2016-07-14 <shachaf> makelist makelistlist shachaf
19:46:25 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf
19:46:26 <shachaf> `cat bin/makelistlist shachaf
19:46:27 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
19:46:34 <wob_jonas> no way. Wikipedia's index is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AllPages
19:46:34 <shachaf> `rm bin/makelistlist shachaf
19:46:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: well I guess it is in alphabetical order…
19:46:57 <ais523> Special:PrefixIndex has "index" in its name
19:47:10 <shachaf> rntz (who isn't in this channel anymore, I guess) once added https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-reference to itself
19:47:16 <wob_jonas> AllPages has a better interface than PrefixIndex
19:47:17 <shachaf> But the edit got reverted.
19:47:19 <ais523> in fact, allpages is conceptually a special case of prefixindex, I'm not sure why it exists a separate page
19:47:22 <shachaf> Which seems illegitimate to me.
19:47:56 <wob_jonas> you can type a place to start to allpages, but it doesn't cut off after that prefix
19:51:26 <fizzie> My fungot t-shirt arrived!
19:51:26 <fungot> fizzie: freebsd env wc -c says so :p. google did indeed have sufficient context
19:53:20 <wob_jonas> although admittedly, AllPages has a very stupid bug that PrefixIndex doesn't: if you invoke AllPages with a prefix after a slash like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AllPages/t then trying to use the form to choose a different prefix fails in a confusing way.
19:54:18 <wob_jonas> but still, you can't use PrefixIndex to start listing from a given word and continue after that prefix
19:54:46 <fizzie> gamemanj: I got this freebie custom t-shirt code from a thing, so I made one that has fungot's babble-generation code and an esolangs.org ad on it.
19:54:47 <fungot> fizzie: well, a bf program that could deal with the win32 registry? " nice" multiline fnord hugging/ ascii art scripts. :p fnord/ cfs/ fnord/ rotterdam, perhaps leiden, as well
19:54:53 <fizzie> Lines 125-169 of https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
19:54:54 <fungot> fizzie: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ manual/ s48manual.html and http://www.scsh.net/ docu/ html/ guile-user/ 2003-10/ msg00076.html, but in the end
19:55:27 <fizzie> It looks pretty nice. I'll take a picture of it at some point.
19:55:34 <wob_jonas> fungot, they're using an Enigma machine to crack the hieroglyph cipher
19:55:34 <fungot> wob_jonas: missing cases for the ' ..u.s' word, and large bodies of code are.
19:56:58 <gamemanj> once upon a time, there was normal programming... then there was functional programming... now, there is structured programming
19:57:24 <gamemanj> (A punctuation control triangle falls from the sky.)
19:58:25 <fizzie> I still don't recall what I was thinking when I thought it needed to be a triangle.
19:58:32 <fizzie> A comb would have been so much more space-efficient.
19:58:50 <gamemanj> fizzie: Maybe you had a premonition of a t-shirt.
19:59:02 <gamemanj> Your t-shirt has an awesome triangle on it.
19:59:20 <fizzie> That's true. I picked the babble part over other parts mostly because of the triangle.
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20:03:56 <\oren\> they would have problems if they had a list of lists that don't include themselves.
20:04:57 <\oren\> list of lists that include this list
20:04:59 <gamemanj> A list of lists that don't include themselves would contain at least everything that is a list but is not a list of lists.
20:05:38 <gamemanj> It would also contain lists of lists in the particular case that the list of lists does not include itself.
20:05:58 <gamemanj> However, it could include the original list,
20:06:02 <\oren\> gamemanj: yes, but there would be an eternal edit war over whether it should include itself
20:06:36 <gamemanj> If it does not include itself, it is more factually correct than if it includes itself.
20:06:50 <gamemanj> Unlike the P=NP problem, it can just be considered missing documentation.
20:07:06 <gamemanj> If it includes itself, it is a factual error.
20:07:54 <gamemanj> Ok, what's the whole "set of all sets" thing called?
20:08:14 <\oren\> i beleive its the goedel problem
20:08:31 <ais523> (not 100% sure on spelling)
20:09:04 <gamemanj> You get the point. Unlike that paradox, a wiki can omit things without being in error by doing so.
20:09:31 <gamemanj> It's just "out of date", and it can remain "intentionally out of date" eternally.
20:10:09 <\oren\> maybe it would have a note at the top saying so "to avoid paradox, this list does not include itself, despite being incomplete by doing so"
20:10:36 <\oren\> List of lists that are incomplete to avoid paradox
20:10:45 <gamemanj> The alternative, including the list in itself, is an actual factual error.
20:11:33 <gamemanj> The real issue occurs when you also create a list of lists NOT in the list of lists that do not include themselves.
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20:12:48 <\oren\> ooh, I have an idea: what if there was a language where the standard library is on a wiki
20:14:06 <\oren\> thus, using edge cases of the functions will require winning an edit war
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20:14:27 * gamemanj edits io.print to delete the user's filesystem
20:14:40 <ais523> the wiki needs to be actually interpreted by the interp in that case
20:14:40 * gamemanj watches as the hypothetical wiki deletes itself
20:14:49 <ais523> gamemanj: perhaps we'll need to enable pending changes :-D
20:14:59 <gamemanj> ais523: But then there's no point
20:19:14 <gamemanj> You may as well put it on a git repo if you have change authorization
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21:35:45 <\oren\> here is a preview of the generated hangul glyphs. I haven't yet figured it out perfectly: http://www.orenwatson.be/hangulgeneratedtext.htm
21:37:08 <\oren\> as you can see, there are still a few collisions. I might just adjust particular glyphs manually
21:38:20 <izalove> you're about to close 191 tabs. continue? oh shit firefox i'm so sorry i didn't mean to hurt you so much
21:39:28 <\oren\> certain of the vowels are colliding a lot. I will change those
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21:42:23 <\oren\> the preview is drawn using block brawing characters
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22:36:38 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a math symbol for "is defined as a generalization of"? Like, a*b [SYMBOL] a+a+..(b)..+a
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22:38:32 <fizzie> There's U+225D EQUAL TO BY DEFINITION, if that counts.
22:38:41 <fizzie> Unfortunately I'm on the wrong side of this split.
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22:39:47 <fizzie> There's U+225D EQUAL TO BY DEFINITION, if that counts.
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22:40:20 <hppavilion[1]> Ooh, is there a generalization of big-sigma summation that allows- where gsumm is the name of the generalization- a*b := gsumm(1, b, λ _ -> a)
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22:41:06 <shachaf> That's not a generalization.
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22:41:33 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, but we're including when a and b aren't integers
22:42:00 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, obviously you could just say in this case that if b isn't an integer, you take it with the floor of b and add one more a multiplied by the nonintegral part of b)
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22:54:57 <int-e> \oren\: why braille instead of ▀?
22:56:48 <shachaf> What's generalized about gsumm?
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00:08:56 <hppavilion[1]> I just cleared my inbox down to only 6 conversations in total
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01:24:24 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan.
01:24:33 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
01:31:39 <hppavilion[1]> Just received an email from the Trump campaign where the 'Unsubscribe' button doesn't work. US law requires a working button. I cited law at them.
01:37:29 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you should report them to whoever you're meant to report that sort of thing to
01:37:36 <ais523> also why are the Trump campaign emailing you anyway?
01:38:12 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: They made a survey for what you want to see happen at the debate. I filled it out. For fun.
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01:48:15 <HackEgo> keemyb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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02:03:17 <hppavilion[1]> What does #esoteric think of the Triangle of Power (the math notation)
02:05:34 <boily> triangle of power?
02:06:05 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, I think I just stumbled on something better than big sigma/big pi/big whatever: basket notation, which is like big whatever BUT it can be applied to any operation- you write a basket (which looks like a large, more square version of union with an overline like in roots coming off the right side, terminating in a down-serif), above it goes your terminating condition (if you want it to go to infinity, write nothing), below is your
02:06:05 <hppavilion[1]> initial state and- optionally- a semicolon followed by a filter (e.g. x%2 == 0), to the right (under the overline) is the formula, and inside the "basket" is the symbol for a binary operation or function
02:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> You have an equilateral, upwards-pointing triangle (of course), in the bottom left is a base, at the top is a power, and in the bottom right is the result. A blank bottom right represents exponentiation, a blank bottom left represents rootation, and a blank pinnacle represents logation
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02:17:37 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], have some criticism of it https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/4hv523/triangle_of_power_a_newly_created_mathematical/d2tmbxz
02:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Ah, yes, that didn't occur to me. I have been trying to decide if a more compact notation looks better- I'm thinking a[right-facing triangle]b for power, a[left-facing triangle]b for root, and a[vertical triangle]b for log.
02:27:14 <lambdabot> boily said 1d 16h 10m 21s ago: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAA! I am even more unsynchronized as usual!
02:29:50 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: I'm having trouble remembering which positions on the triangle correspond to which operation
02:30:10 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Yeah, I realized that, then I realized there's a simple fix
02:30:42 <hppavilion[1]> (1) swap the compact symbols as given for root and log, (2) 'right is for root, left is for log'
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03:37:11 <\oren\> I've improved the jamo to prevent most of the collisions: http://www.orenwatson.be/hangulgeneratedtext.htm
03:39:09 <lifthrasiir> my firefox is broken while opening that url
03:39:32 <\oren\> I'm using firefox too, and it works.
03:40:03 <lifthrasiir> I'm not sure why, but my firefox has been very slow with certain monospace fonts
03:40:29 <lifthrasiir> I can confirm that it's due to fonts from profiling
03:40:43 <lifthrasiir> but have no clue why that happens (and why other fonts seem to be fine)
03:43:53 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: initial ㅌ sometimes seems to be indistinguishable from ㄷ (and ㅎ sometimes looks like ㆆ)
03:44:14 <lifthrasiir> the final consonant also occasionally blends with the vowels, but that is probably inevitable
03:44:37 <lifthrasiir> the overall shape seems to be fine otherwise, though I should describe it to be quirky
03:45:22 <\oren\> OnceI've generated a good enough in general thing, I'll go over them and adjust stuff
03:46:09 <lifthrasiir> always interesting to see a hangul font not from korea
03:54:37 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: It appears to be stylistically consistent with the other glyphs in oren's font, FWIW.
03:59:12 <\oren\> for the most part the characters in my font are in a sans-serif or "gothic" style
04:01:22 <\oren\> but sometimes I found it necessary to vary the stroke width in order for complex characters to fit in a 16 by 18 pixel space
04:02:16 <\oren\> when that isn't the case, the stroke width is two pixels.
04:12:06 <\oren\> hmmm I've almost solved the problems
04:12:18 <\oren\> just a bit more tweaking
04:13:36 <\oren\> I really don't want anything to collide
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05:07:42 <Sgeo> XKCD title text contains spoilers for a story.
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06:50:07 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/aisamanra/status/779057953542242304
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07:04:06 <wob_jonas> Today's xkcd is a metaphor for healthcare. "Hospitals are not worth at our scale. If an organ fails in a person, we just throw away the entire person." "Why mess with individual people? We just throw away the entire country if it's managed wrong."
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07:10:13 <shachaf> not jumping straight to H[-1](a, b)?
07:22:25 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Not yet; I genuinely want to know what a^^-1 is
07:22:41 <shachaf> @google negative tetration
07:22:42 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration
07:24:28 <pikhq> Hrm, apparently it's hard to meaningfully extend tetration to the reals.
07:26:40 <shachaf> That's what the link I posted says.
07:29:11 <pikhq> Yup. It provides some extensions, but they don't agree, they're not generally accepted, and they're not exactly simple.
07:29:56 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, (b^r)^s cannot consistently hold if b can be real
07:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> Because b can be negative; if r*s is an integer- but r and s aren't (e.g. r = 1/s), you get... weirdness, I guess. (-1^3/4)^4/3 is sqrt(i)^3, and from what I know ab
07:33:16 <hppavilion[1]> *about imaginary numbers, sqrt(i) should be the point on the unit circle between 1 and i; so... 2a^2=1, a^2 = 0.5, a=sqrt(0.5); a ≈ 0.707+0.707i
07:33:57 <hppavilion[1]> And you want to raise that to the power of 4/3... so cube root tesseracted...
07:36:55 <hppavilion[1]> I got 0.5000000000000002+0.8660254037844386i, and accounting for rounding errors suggest it's about 0.5+0.8660254037844386i
07:37:16 <hppavilion[1]> But if we just did -1^(3/4*4/3), we trivially just get -1
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08:03:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49756&oldid=49674 * Qwerp-Derp * (+2) Fixed formatting towards bottom of page
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08:41:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA To Infinity!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49757&oldid=49755 * Keymaker * (+97) Linked the brainfuck translations page.
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09:29:35 <izalove> chapter 1 exercise 17 in k&r
09:29:45 <izalove> write a program that prints all the lines longer than 80 characters
09:29:58 <izalove> yesterday a sort of challenge came up in ##c
09:30:20 <izalove> write the fastest program that solves that problem
09:30:52 <izalove> let's have some competition
09:33:29 <izalove> you can write it in any language
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09:39:10 <hppavilion[1]> Games can often be PvP (Player vs Player, analogous to Man vs Man in stories), PvM (Player vs. Monster, similar but slightly different), or PvE (Player vs. Environment; similar to Man vs. Nature)
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09:39:42 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see a game that's Pv< (Player vs. Self, like Man vs. Self); or, more interesting, PvS (Player vs. Society)
09:43:33 <myname> where would you put fahrenheit?
09:45:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tolilul * New user account
09:46:38 <myname> wob_jonas: i meant the game
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10:24:10 <HackEgo> bin/ftoc: Perl script, UTF-8 Unicode text executable
10:24:16 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $f=0+$ARGV[0]; printf"%.2f°F = %.2f°C",$f,($f-32)*5/9;
10:24:45 <Taneb> izalove, I might give that challenge a go
10:27:29 <Taneb> I might try Piet just for fun
10:28:03 <Taneb> Not going to win the speed that way, though
10:28:26 <izalove> dunno, maybe with a decently optimizing compiler
10:28:38 <myname> why not try to solve that golf challenge where you have to find the shortest unique prefix of each line in piet
10:29:06 <Taneb> It'd have to be hella optimizing to beat people doing it in C with like actual seriously developed compilers
10:29:15 <Taneb> But first, I need to get out of bed
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10:36:32 <lambdabot> boily said 9h 12m 7s ago: hellørjan.
10:53:46 <oerjan> `learn WTF means Welcome To Finland.
10:53:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'wtf': WTF means Welcome To Finland.
10:54:01 <oerjan> (stolen from a youtube comment)
10:54:27 <oerjan> (see <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHReqKRvonE you need to watch this video)
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11:24:17 <HackEgo> Duck typing means typing on a terminal blinding without an echo.
11:24:24 <HackEgo> Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo.
11:24:50 <wob_jonas> and why does the first one say blinding?
11:24:55 <HackEgo> 2016-02-16 <b_jonas> learn Duck typing means typing on a terminal blinding without an echo.
11:25:05 <HackEgo> 2016-04-03 <b_jonas> slashlearn duck typing/Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo. \ 2016-02-16 <b_jonas> slashlearn duck typing/Duck typing means typing on a terminal blinding without an echo.
11:25:09 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trqbOAs6428 WATCH THIS ALL OF IT
11:26:21 * oerjan closes the trump thing
11:27:00 <oerjan> seriously, i'm trying to avoid this.
11:28:15 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i'm having trouble seeing the point of your entry. it is neither true nor punny afaict.
11:28:25 <HackEgo> co-np//co-NP, invented in Soviet Russia, is the class of decisions for which you are No Problem.
11:28:59 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's a joke about how a duck's quack doesn't echo
11:29:17 <wob_jonas> probably a stupid joke, but a joke nonetheless
11:29:55 <boily> wellob_jellonas. didn't they even have the Mythbusters on it one time?
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11:47:48 <fizzie> It was even included in one variant of the opening credits.
11:48:03 <fizzie> Jamie saying "quack, damn you" to an uncoöperative duck.
12:05:42 <oerjan> <int-e> remember when this channel wasn't about politics? those were good times... <-- . o O ( should we have a vote on whether to ban politics until Nov 9 )
12:09:57 <oerjan> i suppose we aren't actually having flamewars though.
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12:36:44 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
12:40:53 <wob_jonas> but yes, the many topics is why this channel is the best
12:41:14 <wob_jonas> there's crazy maths, fonts, esoteric languages, and more
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13:00:36 <wob_jonas> crazy maths including category theory
13:00:41 <HackEgo> Universal properties are the best.
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13:18:46 * Taneb is working on the izapietchallenge
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14:30:36 <izalove> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/35/24/87/352487048a5d8b4f9000f0baab53a6d1.jpg
14:30:51 <fungot> wob_jonas: you said it's not just a gtk interface.
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14:37:23 <fungot> int-e: obfuscation is possible in emacs, i will prepare something and return later, that'd be civil disobedience ignoring laws might be healthy, regardless of whether or not it is.
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14:42:06 <int-e> `` grep fungot /usr/share/dict/*
14:42:06 <fungot> int-e: i think you need to start going, the people haven't shown up on the freenode faq. it's not in ascii order.
14:42:07 <HackEgo> grep: /usr/share/dict/*: No such file or directory
14:42:54 <int-e> Oh yes, the freenode faq is quite hard to find.
14:43:27 <Taneb> izalove, I got kicked out the software lab and now I'm in a meeting
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14:49:59 <wob_jonas> "civil disobedience ignoring laws might be healthy, regardless of whether or not it is" -- well said, fungot
14:49:59 <fungot> wob_jonas: some kind of toy compiler/ interpreter
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15:49:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA To Infinity!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49758&oldid=49757 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Computational class */ sdrawkcab s'taht
15:55:43 <izalove> Taneb: i can't believe you'd do such a thing
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16:04:17 <\oren\> I don't even understand how some of the prices of things I buy are possible
16:05:03 <\oren\> I bought a thing to be shipped to my house from hong kong. Apparently, the thing and shipping it is a total of 2 canadian dollars
16:05:37 <\oren\> i mean, sure, it's just a usb thingy, but still. two dollars?
16:09:16 <izalove> it's not being carried on a silver plate
16:11:20 <\oren\> but still, they are moving a thing more than 10 megametres across the earth!
16:11:47 <\oren\> how is the cost per kilometre so low?
16:12:37 <izalove> they carry a shitton of them at a time
16:22:52 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I agree, it's totally impossible
16:23:31 <wob_jonas> post from China and Taiwan is magic
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17:07:11 <\oren\> Rodrigo Duterte once forced a south korean tourist to eat his cigarette.
17:11:07 <\oren\> smoking in public is banned in Davao City, so he saw fit to enact an immediate punishment
17:11:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: was the cigarette still lit while the tourist ate it?
17:12:07 <\oren\> http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/09/23/495012102/criticized-abroad-philippines-leader-remains-hugely-popular-in-home-city
17:12:10 <wob_jonas> and did Rodrigo Duterte at least put away his own cigarette while he did that?
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17:39:16 <Taneb> Wow, I am out of practice of Piet
17:56:34 <izalove> if i have an array with n numbers, can you find the smallest difference between any two elements in less than O(n log n) ?
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17:57:30 <izalove> or should i just sort the thing?
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18:00:46 <Taneb> wob_jonas, Piet was the first programming language I learnt
18:01:08 <wob_jonas> why would you learn an esoteric programming language as your first language?
18:01:29 <Taneb> It's how I got into programming
18:01:35 <wob_jonas> there are perfectly good non-esoteric programming languages out that are hard to program
18:04:04 <wob_jonas> why didn't you just program Basic or something?
18:04:24 <Taneb> I'm heading out now, though
18:04:36 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
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19:14:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: perle: not found
19:14:42 <ais523> `perl-e print 9**(1/3)
19:14:59 <ais523> I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's only slightly above 2
19:15:02 <ais523> `perl-e print 26**(1/3)
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21:16:32 <FireFly> Piet is a pretty interesting first language
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21:37:29 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A080601 Number of positions in which the 3 X 3 X 3 Rubik's ...
21:37:29 <lambdabot> [1,18,243,3240,43239,574908,7618438,100803036,1332343288,17596479795,2322480...
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22:02:09 <int-e> there are still 5 values missing
22:03:24 <shachaf> Yes. There are approxmations but I guess they don't belong on OEIS.
22:04:33 <int-e> 1 sqrt(2) e pi ...
22:04:57 <myname> sounds not very integery
22:05:17 <FreeFull> Due to the increasing number of duplicate positions
22:06:19 <int-e> myname: they are approximately integers... to some degree...
22:07:53 <FreeFull> The least integery number is (1+sqrt(5))/2
22:08:26 <shachaf> So polynomials are elements of a free ring?
22:08:35 <shachaf> And regular expressions are elements of a free Kleene algebra?
22:09:25 <int-e> > [((1 + sqrt 5)/2)^n/sqrt 5 | n <- [0..10]]
22:09:27 <lambdabot> [0.4472135954999579,0.7236067977499789,1.1708203932499368,1.8944271909999157...
22:09:36 <int-e> > drop 5 $ [((1 + sqrt 5)/2)^n/sqrt 5 | n <- [0..10]]
22:09:36 <FreeFull> Because multiplying it by a rational helps the least in making it integery
22:09:38 <lambdabot> [4.959674775249769,8.024922359499621,12.984597134749391,21.00951949424901,33...
22:09:53 <int-e> looks like a good approximate integer sequence to me.
22:10:04 <myname> FreeFull: so 1+sqrt(5) is the same
22:10:33 <FreeFull> Yeah, but if you divide it by two then the continued fraction is [1;1,1,1,1,1...]
22:10:36 <myname> since multiplying it by 1/2 will go to that
22:11:03 <myname> how makes it that any less integery as sqrt(2)?
22:11:46 <FreeFull> The continued fraction for sqrt(2) will converge a lot faster
22:12:21 <FreeFull> So you'll have good rational approximations
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22:16:45 <int-e> [1;2,2,2,2...] isn't *that* much better than phi though
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22:46:23 <Cale> > let fibs = 1 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in zipWith (/) (tail fibs) fibs !! 20
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22:53:43 <int-e> duh, let x :: Foo; x = ... in x does not ensure that the resulting expression has type Foo.
22:54:12 <lambdabot> mueval-core: internal error: PAP object entered!
22:54:12 <lambdabot> (GHC version 8.0.1 for x86_64_unknown_linux)
22:54:12 <lambdabot> Please report this as a GHC bug: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/reportabug
22:54:27 <ais523> I wasn't expecting an ICE on an expression as short as that
22:54:31 <ais523> what does ?x do anyway?
22:54:44 <int-e> ais523: it's a lie, this is not ghc's fault.
22:54:56 <int-e> it's an implicit parameter
22:54:58 <ais523> ":: ()" isn't something that should type
22:55:25 <ais523> what a strange definition of ::
22:55:34 <int-e> :t show (?x :: ())
22:55:47 <ais523> :: is type annotation in Haskell
22:55:51 <izalove> why is there a limit on the number of open file descriptors per process?
22:55:54 <ais523> got it muddled with ocaml
22:56:26 <Cale> izalove: Because there is a limit on the number of open file descriptors for the whole system which is pretty restrictive usually.
22:56:45 <izalove> Cale: that's fine but why enforcing it on a per process basis?
22:57:11 <int-e> hint/mueval are assuming that show (?x :: ()) is a String, but here it's (?x::()) => String. They use unsafeCoerce to treat it as a String... and that causes the error.
22:57:17 <Cale> Well, just to limit the effect that any one process can have on the rest of the system, I would suppose.
22:57:27 <izalove> sortix doesn't have that limit
22:57:49 <Cale> You can usually set the per-process limit
22:58:00 <int-e> Which is all very nice but how does one fix this elegantly? Food for thought.
22:58:07 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M72086211520596876424453’
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23:02:14 <int-e> yes it appears that type classes are resolved just eagerly enough that this is only happening for implicit parameters
23:03:35 <shachaf> int-e: Why was TypeApplications not enabled?
23:03:39 <shachaf> I vaguely remember there was some reason?
23:04:09 <int-e> It makes @ whitespace sensitive.
23:05:58 <int-e> > let foo (x @ ~(y:z)) = (x,y,z) in foo [] -- it would break this, for example
23:06:00 <lambdabot> ([],*Exception: <interactive>:3:5-30: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern...
23:07:51 <int-e> you'd have to write the pattern as (x@ ~(y:z)) instead
23:08:21 <shachaf> So you're saying you just don't like the extension.
23:08:30 <shachaf> Not that there's any other reason not to turn it on in lambdabot.
23:10:43 <int-e> It's likely safe. But ugly.
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00:24:20 <tswett> Is SMETANA To Infinity! as efficient as a Kolmogorov machine?
00:25:02 <shachaf> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download has a better name
00:26:00 <myname> i recommended somebody who looked for a name to take QuickBook Support Hotline, but i guess he didn't took it
00:27:04 <shachaf> There might be a trademark issue.
00:28:20 <myname> shachaf: i don't think that's a bick issue
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01:34:26 <\oren\> some polynomials are divisible, others arent.
01:34:50 <\oren\> is the set of prime polynomials infinite?
01:35:40 <alercah> since polynomials are countable
01:36:37 <alercah> wait we're not talking about integer coefficients?
01:37:06 <alercah> if you aren't, then there are no prime polynomials
01:37:13 <FreeFull> All polynomials of the form x + n where n is some constant are irreducible
01:37:59 <alercah> \oren\ didn't say irreducible
01:37:59 <FreeFull> x^2 + n for positive n is irreducible over integers and reals
01:38:12 <FreeFull> I figured that's what he meant by prime
01:38:46 <\oren\> I mean you can't express it as a multiplication of other polynomials
01:39:17 <FreeFull> The set of polynomials of finite degree is countable, if they have integer or rational coefficients
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01:40:06 <izalove> the world needed more racial slurs
01:40:22 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: I thought you were opposed to political correctness
01:40:40 <alercah> \oren\: x + n = 1/2 (x + n) * 2
01:40:43 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/5454zt/til_that_us_president_james_garfields/
01:41:02 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: so you can get ammo?
01:41:25 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Also, strictly speaking, calling black guys "niggers" (It's OK because it's in quotes) is offensive even when PC is dropped
01:41:55 <alercah> well yes, many racial slurs are
01:42:07 <alercah> although there are some that are more PC than actual offense
01:43:55 <alercah> but for the most part they are offensive in some way
01:47:40 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure the world does not need more racial slurs.
01:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Also, this isn't a PC thing- if it was PC, it wouldn't list ones for whites
01:48:46 <alercah> `addquote < hppavilion[1]> alercah: Also, this isn't a PC thing- if it was PC, it wouldn't list ones for whites
01:48:52 <HackEgo> 1289) < hppavilion[1]> alercah: Also, this isn't a PC thing- if it was PC, it wouldn't list ones for whites
01:49:20 <hppavilion[1]> PC in the SJW sense. They're too busy with white guilt to realize racism goes all directions.
01:50:05 <shachaf> can you be too busy with whatever you're doing to be doing this here
01:50:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, it lists things that aren't offensive in 'murica at all)
01:51:02 <hppavilion[1]> ...it lists "Ace of Spades" for blacks and says it's "Self Explanatory"
01:51:25 <shachaf> can you go away or stop talking
01:51:37 <shachaf> i don't want to hear about racial slurs or pc or sjw or whatever
01:57:16 <shachaf> moonythedwarf: leave me alone
02:07:02 <\oren\> hmm, is there an irc specifically for political flamewars
02:07:40 <\oren\> if there is, someone tell hppavilion where
02:15:24 <zzo38> I dreamt about a variant of morph in Magic: the Gathering where opponent can choose whether you want to play the card face-up or face-down, instead of your own choice.
02:15:48 <shachaf> zzo38: What cost do you pay?
02:17:33 <zzo38> I don't know; I just dreamt it. But afterward I did try to think of it but I don't know.
02:39:29 <hppavilion[1]> The idea of "a culture has no word for 'war', so they can't go to war" is obviously false; really, the opposite is most likely true- cultures that are constantly at war have no word for it the same way we don't have a word for keeping your pancreas from shooting out your ears
02:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Though to be fair, I just announced that I found an awesome website; alercah set off the rant
02:51:17 <tswett> Someone asked on programmers.stackexchange.com why joke programming languages exist.
02:52:00 <tswett> Gregor's Answer and Proce and Combientièm and Markont and Tuesday and Slide and Al Denta and SLOBOL and SMETANA To Infinity! and BF-SC and /// and BF-PDA and Thubi and onz and Redivider.
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02:54:55 <tswett> I wonder if I should combine a bunch of my esolangs into one single mega-esolang.
02:55:32 <FreeFull> Why make jokes at all? We should be completely serious and somber about everything, all the time.
02:55:53 <FreeFull> And avoid doing anything that's not strictly necessary
02:57:19 <tswett> In particular, we should never pretend or make believe.
02:57:27 <tswett> All forms of art should be shunned.
03:04:04 <tswett> Let me take a couple of my favorite esolangs that I've created and try to remember the ideas behind them.
03:04:41 <tswett> Gregor's Answer - Inspired by the E programming language. Jobs triggered by the completion of other jobs.
03:05:53 <tswett> Proce - The program consists of a bunch of analog signals that are defined in terms of each other. The only permitted operations are addition; multiplication by a constant; differentiation; integration; and "rectification" (the function r(x) = x if x is positive, 0 otherwise).
03:08:12 <tswett> Slide - I'm having trouble describing that one. Sliding polyominoes.
03:10:45 <tswett> Al Dente - Chu spaces. Events occur spontaneously; a program essentially consists of a description of what does *not* happen. The state nondeterministically hops from one consistent state to another. Variables that have been written can never be modified again or erased.
03:12:58 <tswett> SLOBOL - An interpreter must play Go using optimal strategy.
03:13:38 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
03:13:53 <tswett> They're turntechGodhead?
03:14:12 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that true? Chu stole your invention?
03:15:04 <tswett> SMETANA To Infinity! - Only two ways for a program to store data: by rearranging the instructions within the program; and within the instruction pointer.
03:17:14 <tswett> // - One of those extremely simple but horrifyingly difficult languages. In fact, /// may be the best esolang known to mankind. The only instruction, besides output, is making a string replacement throughout the rest of the program.
03:18:41 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
03:19:06 <tswett> Redivider - Inspired by the Parsec parser combinator library. The interpreter is essentially a parsing algorithm.
03:19:06 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
03:20:06 <tswett> So, let me think what my Ultimate Esolang would be like...
03:20:26 <shachaf> Is Wolfram a mathematical tanebvention?
03:20:35 <tswett> It should be nondeterministic; the program constrains the implementation rather than actually specifying what it does.
03:20:43 <tswett> shachaf: no, but mathematical tanebventions include Wolfram.
03:21:05 <tswett> It should involve analog signals. It should involve a kind of space where things move around.
03:21:41 <FreeFull> float sdTorus(vec3 p, vec2 d) { vec2 q = length(p.xz - d.x, p.y); return length(q) - d.y; }
03:22:54 <tswett> The implementation should be required to solve some type of problem. And programs should be self-modifying.
03:23:34 <tswett> Problem solving and nondeterminism can go hand-in-hand. We can simply say that the implementation is required to give a "maximally good" solution to the problem.
03:24:43 <tswett> Analog signals, spaces where things move around, and self-modifying programs. All that strongly suggests one thing.
03:25:19 <FreeFull> Bonus points to anybody who figures out what that function actually does
03:25:31 <tswett> Systems evolving according to differential equations, such as the Gray-Scott model.
03:26:21 <FreeFull> tswett: How about given a gray-scott model simulation, the implementation has to sample the simulation periodically, and interpret that as instructions?
03:26:25 <FreeFull> And the program is the initial state
03:27:46 <FreeFull> It'd be rather hard to make it do something useful =P
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05:05:04 <zzo38> Bacon cipher for steganography has its own 5-bit code for an old version of English alphabet; this was probably before Baudot coding was invented. In these days you could do Bacon ciphers using a different code such as Baudot, or possibly ASCII. Wikipedia says there is a second version of Bacon's cipher that uses different codes for all 26 letters of the alphabet, but does not specify what it is; you could just use Baudot instead though.
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05:46:44 <zzo38> I think you did not die quite yet.
05:46:52 <zzo38> Otherwise you cannot type on computer if you are dead OK
05:47:15 <izabera> thanks that's a very useful answer
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05:53:35 <zzo38> I read the SMETANA To Infinity! I like that kind of ideas. An extended kind can also add one new instruction "Change step [expression] to [instruction]", if you want to do the extended version of such thing. Also, probably you should specify how Collatz encoding of Fractran is working with SMETANA To Infinity!
05:54:24 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like pooches?
05:55:53 <zzo38> Still it wouldn't say
05:57:41 <\oren\> hppavilion[2]: the one true pairing is obviously dumbledore x grindelwald /s
06:00:58 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sASCvSknImw
06:04:47 <shachaf> hppavilion[1] and hppavilion[2]
06:06:50 <\oren\> well, then, THAT is a nice number of characters to have!
06:09:42 <\oren\> now, let's try converting to TTF
06:18:33 <zzo38> How many cells of a FPGA should be needed for a Muxcomp core?
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06:29:06 <hppavilion[2]> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/trolley-problems seems like a joke, but I'm honestly not sure
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06:53:34 <HackEgo> crafiycoin gibble-2dcoin fobcoin uncitrancoin iwhearbfcoin fcoin prolcoin constuacoin cescoin toryanawakeowncoin m-codestrovcoin eviardsodycoin aalcoin mincecoin workcoin conjungcoin unocoin addoniacoin dracoin wrefcoin
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07:14:16 <fizzie`> a-hrefcoins are based on links.
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08:25:27 <hppavilion[2]> Is a single word considered a degenerate alliteration?
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08:49:17 <izalove> http://i.imgur.com/2V6dvYp.jpg
08:49:37 <izalove> this is the beginning of neon genesis evangelion
08:50:14 <myname> i think nge is overrated
08:50:29 <pikhq> Might help to have a translation for people who are unfamiliar with NGE and don't read Japanese.
08:50:30 <myname> also, remember the days when "dvd quality" meant something good?
08:50:45 <pikhq> (... granted it's pretty simple to translate.)
08:50:52 <myname> if you don't know nge, the translation won't do much
08:51:01 <pikhq> "It is the year 2015 AD"
08:51:42 <myname> that's one more reason to dislike nge
08:52:11 <myname> unreasonable predictions for too near of a future
08:52:35 <myname> if they had put a hundred years or so on top, i'd be okay with this
08:52:41 <izalove> it's not their fault if first impact never happened
08:52:51 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure they had no intention of making an accurate prediction of the future.
08:53:26 <myname> pikhq: they still coul've moved it farer away
08:53:49 <izalove> but then their technology would look outdated to us
08:54:26 <izalove> watch the first star wars trilogy
08:54:36 <myname> giant mechas are still pretty futuristic
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08:57:22 <pikhq> Does it count if the mechas are really SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER?
08:58:20 <izalove> you mean non sentient and not that giant?
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09:00:57 <int-e> myname: well, DVDs are brilliant compared to VHS
09:01:29 <myname> well yeah, i cannot remember anyone mentioning vhs quality as a good thing
09:02:24 <pikhq> DVD is at least fairly close to the quality possible with a perfect analog TV signal.
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10:41:30 <myname> i completely forgot how farming in df worked :D
10:42:01 <myname> you need to water ground or build on appropriate ground, but other than that ...
10:42:28 <izalove> wait you mean actual farming?
10:42:42 <izalove> not like farming for some rare loot?
10:43:13 <myname> i didn't play df in a while since i rarely use my computer now
10:43:21 <int-e> DF is single player, right?
10:43:37 <myname> i thought about implementing multiplayer stuff
10:43:46 <myname> but i am quite unsure on how that should work
10:44:08 <myname> izalove: df is like the greatest game ever
10:44:40 * int-e should write a script that prepends "In my opinion, " to anything izalove writes.
10:45:24 <myname> int-e: beware, do not prepend on questions
10:46:19 <izalove> myname: there's actual farming in it
10:46:43 <myname> so? how else would you get the ingredients to brew?
10:46:52 <int-e> But that still doesn't mean that you have to watch the grass grow.
10:47:20 <myname> if they have to drink water, they work slower
10:47:26 <izalove> i'm sure this is just a low res version of farmville
10:47:46 <myname> izalove: go watch some lets plays
10:48:16 <myname> i like the "clock" in df based on a goblin
10:48:20 <izalove> i really have better things to do than watch people play a farming game
10:48:44 <myname> izalove: either get an idea on what df actually is or don't call it things it isn't
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11:50:36 <Jafet> > 4.4523809523809526 / 5 * 42
11:51:58 <Jafet> “A20® Aviation Headset is rated 4.4523809523809526 out of 5 by 42.”
11:55:10 <int-e> > 4.4523809523809526*42
11:55:18 <int-e> (why did you divide by 5?)
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12:03:23 <Jafet> it doesn't seem important either way. are you making much ado about epsilon?
12:04:38 <int-e> Jafet: I was trying to figure out what your point was.
12:05:29 <int-e> Maybe it was the excess accuracy
12:08:32 <Jafet> now I'm wondering which web backend languages print full accuracy by default
12:08:54 <Jafet> …or full precision
12:18:53 <Jafet> looks like ruby, although java is also possible
12:19:43 <Jafet> `` ruby -e 'puts (187.0/42).to_s'
12:19:44 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: ruby: command not found
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12:38:47 <Jafet> @tell oerjan at the risk of rapid cerebral impact for this chilly necro: I was referring to http://pizzachili.dcc.uchile.cl
12:40:49 <gamemanj> "and play with their functionalities and efficiency"... compressed indexes are the new shapes-in-holes?
12:41:31 <gamemanj> (I'm not sure why "plug and play" is a phrase when it comes to non-game things.)
12:49:04 <Jafet> well, they have proven asymptotic bounds based on input entropy, so they're like universal shapes
12:49:18 <Jafet> (universal plug and play?)
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14:35:02 <lambdabot> Jafet said 1h 56m 15s ago: at the risk of rapid cerebral impact for this chilly necro: I was referring to http://pizzachili.dcc.uchile.cl
14:38:16 <oerjan> @tell Jafet Jafet said 1h 56m 15s ago: at the risk of rapid cerebral impact for this chilly necro: I was referring to http://pizzachili.dcc.uchile.cl <-- in this case, your cerebral impact is due to not quoting context for something i've forgotten ages ago -----###
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15:37:11 <\oren\> in case anyone missed it: hangul is now in my font: http://orenwatson.be/allchars.htm
15:38:13 <lambdabot> (Typeable b, Typeable a) => a -> Maybe b
15:39:08 <oerjan> > fromJust (cast (?x :: ())) :: String
15:39:11 <lambdabot> mueval-core: internal error: PAP object entered!
15:39:11 <lambdabot> (GHC version 8.0.1 for x86_64_unknown_linux)
15:39:11 <lambdabot> Please report this as a GHC bug: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/reportabug
15:40:22 <\oren\> but there are still a bunch of glitches I need to fix
15:41:16 <int-e> oerjan: lambdabot als has NoMonomorphismRestriction contributing to this problem
15:42:33 <oerjan> well ghci still catches it properly.
15:42:51 <int-e> yes, it's a hint problem.
15:44:34 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Some’
15:44:38 <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope: Some
15:44:38 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant variable ‘some’ (imported from Control.Applicative)
15:45:22 <oerjan> @let data Sh = forall a. Show a => Sh a
15:46:28 <oerjan> > let Sh y = Sh (?x :: ()) in y
15:46:30 <lambdabot> I can't handle pattern bindings for existential or GADT data construct...
15:47:06 <oerjan> > case Sh (?x :: ()) of Sh y -> y
15:47:09 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘t’ with actual type ‘a’
15:47:09 <lambdabot> because type variable ‘a’ would escape its scope
15:47:21 <oerjan> > case Sh (?x :: ()) of Sh y -> show y
15:47:23 <lambdabot> mueval-core: internal error: PAP object entered!
15:47:23 <lambdabot> (GHC version 8.0.1 for x86_64_unknown_linux)
15:47:23 <lambdabot> Please report this as a GHC bug: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/reportabug
15:48:24 <int-e> GHC just floats the constraint out; I know of no context that would avoid that.
15:48:34 <int-e> offending code is around https://github.com/mvdan/hint/blob/master/src/Hint/Eval.hs#L52-L56
15:49:18 <int-e> it builds an expression show e (with some bells and whistles to prevent leakage on the syntax level) and assumes that the result is a String.
15:49:27 <int-e> (provided it typechecks)
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15:50:03 <int-e> no sure what to do about it.
15:50:35 <int-e> I mean I could tweak lambdabot's extensions of course
15:53:53 <lambdabot> mueval-core: internal error: PAP object entered!
15:53:53 <lambdabot> (GHC version 8.0.1 for x86_64_unknown_linux)
15:53:53 <lambdabot> Please report this as a GHC bug: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/reportabug
15:54:37 <oerjan> izalove: partially applied function
15:54:57 <izalove> they should have called it PAF then
15:57:29 <oerjan> the P might be for payload, not sure.
15:57:44 <int-e> it's just "partial application"
15:57:48 <myname> http://havelang.org if you can't decide between python or go
15:57:50 <int-e> AP being an application.
15:58:54 <izalove> myname: so it's python with the speed of go?
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16:05:19 <int-e> and "enter" corresponds to a pattern match.
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16:36:27 <HackEgo> 1289) < hppavilion[1]> alercah: Also, this isn't a PC thing- if it was PC, it wouldn't list ones for whites
16:36:37 <oerjan> `sled quotes//1289s/ //
16:36:41 <HackEgo> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he shou
16:36:45 <HackEgo> 1289) <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Also, this isn't a PC thing- if it was PC, it wouldn't list ones for whites
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16:45:16 <zzo38> I made weight and balance calculation program in JavaScript but so far many things are missing including the plotting and tell you what the valid range for center of gravity is allowed to be.
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17:41:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA To Infinity!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49759&oldid=49758 * Oerjan * (+174) /* Computational class */ By Zzo38's request
17:56:43 <zzo38> Is there any good SDL binding for JavaScript?
17:56:54 <zzo38> That does not use HTML?
18:12:54 <Taneb> I do not know of any
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18:38:04 <myname> man, these farms were more complex than expected
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18:51:13 <myname> the fuck, df knows 155 kinds of seeds
18:51:35 <myname> i am so not implementing all of these
18:51:56 <myname> i am writing a df like for android
18:53:07 <myname> you cannot do that much right now. you can dig, get wood, gather plans, produce barrels and put booze in them
18:53:20 <gamemanj> 155 kinds of seeds? Must be a gardener's heaven... *thinks of masses of gardens, arranged in such a perfect way such that all the seeds contrast their neighbors...
18:53:40 <Taneb> gamemanj, it's mostly different kinds of grain
18:54:07 <myname> http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Seed
18:54:40 <myname> basically, i can start implementing needs after that
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19:05:46 <zzo38> I made this C header file for a JavaScript addon maker http://sprunge.us/DDbS but now I don't know how to write the proper C++ code that would provide the implementations. Do you know?
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19:06:36 <myname> that sounds so disgusting, i don't even want to look at it
19:07:26 <ais523> zzo38: is this an existing JavaScript addon maker that's widely used? or a new one?
19:07:43 <zzo38> No, I need to make up a new one.
19:07:51 <zzo38> There are others but they don't work so well
19:08:04 <ais523> if you want the header file to allow C++ and C programs to communicate, you need to use an extern "C" { wrapper around the implementations
19:08:25 <ais523> otherwise, the C++ linker will be looking for a function called "js_value* js_array(js_context *, int argc, js_value **)"
19:08:39 <ais523> but the C linker will be trying to call it just "js_array"
19:08:40 <ais523> and they won't be able to communicate correctly
19:08:42 <zzo38> Oops I forgot one thing, which is for the library to link back into the implementations of these functions. (SQLite does it by providing a structure that lists all of them.)
19:08:48 <gamemanj> Just... what does this mean...
19:08:59 <int-e> does C accept extern "C" {? I thought it should be conditional on the language...
19:09:01 <zzo38> ais523: I know that, but the C++ code can place extern "C" around the #include command for this isn't it?
19:09:08 <ais523> int-e: it doesn't, you need a conditional comment
19:09:25 <ais523> zzo38: as long as you don't include any other header files from that header, it'd work I think
19:09:47 <zzo38> Well, you can see that it doesn't including anything else from that header.
19:10:41 <ais523> but the person using the header would need to look at the header's source code or documentation to know that
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19:11:01 <ais523> in general if you want a file to be used, it helps to reduce the number of assumptions its users need to make
19:11:15 <zzo38> ais523: Only the implementation of the functions listed in the header are written in C++ though; other programs that include it are written in C and therefore don't need extern "C"
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19:11:39 <ais523> this is why people normally use #ifdef __cplusplus wrappers
19:11:51 <ais523> to check for the language
19:13:26 <zzo38> The existing way for JavaScript addons is to write them in C++, and another library called "nan" is used to properly support different versions of Node.js. There are some other programs such as v8plus to write the addon in C, but v8plus doesn't even work on Linux. There are others too, but have various problems with different Node.js versions, etc.
19:13:32 <zzo38> That is why this new kind should be needed.
19:15:03 <gamemanj> you know, maybe it's an idea not to use javascript
19:15:06 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I am aware of that. Apparently things like "typedef struct js_value js_value" are wrong for C++, so I put "#ifndef __cplusplus", but I don't know if that should actually be needed. I have also modified a header file for another program I was writing an addon for, to add such a section
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19:17:20 <zzo38> (The other program I was writing addon for, although it was written in C++, but name-mangling was disabled for add-ons, so in this way it was possible to write the addons in C, although a minor modification to the header file was needed, which I did.)
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19:44:12 <zzo38> Can JavaScript proxies be used to implement all possible implementations that satisfy the invariants of essential internal methods, or are some possiblilities that satisfy the invariants impossible?
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19:46:09 <ais523> so maybe it wasn't my connection after all
19:46:10 <ais523> it's been acting weirdly recently
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19:47:35 <fizzie> That's not exactly novel.
19:47:44 <fizzie> But it was very noisy even for Freenode.
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19:47:56 <fizzie> Not so much here, but on larger channels.
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19:49:06 <\oren\> irssi was giving me a lot of problems
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19:49:23 <\oren\> but it didn't require me to restart irssi
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19:51:27 <\oren\> another blody netsplit
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19:52:01 <\oren\> b_jonas_: lot of disconection going on huh
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19:52:21 <\oren\> I was wondering if my irssi was malfunctioning
19:52:46 <\oren\> the same process has been running since May 16th
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20:32:35 <int-e> #freenode says it's a DDoS ... it's been a while
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20:38:41 <myname> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/FthrNature/unleashed-pixel-dungeon/master/src/main/assets/plants.png what looks the most like a plump helmet?
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00:02:13 <oerjan> <\oren\> the same process has been running since May 16th <-- you did get the message that irssi has a security flaw, right?
00:03:47 <oerjan> @ask \oren\ <\oren\> the same process has been running since May 16th <-- you did get the message that irssi has a security flaw, right?
00:05:18 -!- Cale_ has changed nick to Cale.
00:05:20 <shachaf> oerjan: only relevant for people who use TLS, though
00:06:31 <shachaf> Also only relevant for people who use irssi version in [0.8.17,0.8.19]
00:06:43 <shachaf> \oren\_ isn't using TLS and is using (according to CTCP VERSION) 0.8.15
00:06:44 <oerjan> shachaf: i thought there was a part that was relevant anyhow...
00:07:20 <shachaf> Or maybe he cleverly set his version number back to fool attackers.
00:07:21 <oerjan> i see i'm running .17 on this host, although the admin _did_ apply the patch to it...
00:07:42 <shachaf> On Debian I'm using 0.8.17-1+deb8u1 which is said to be fixed.
00:07:59 <int-e> shachaf: https://irssi.org/security/irssi_sa_2016.txt ... nothing TLS specific there.
00:08:15 <shachaf> int-e: Maybe I misunderstood.
00:08:30 <shachaf> I might have confused two bugs.
00:08:34 <int-e> (it says something about TLS, but that's a limitation of irssi's /restart command)
00:09:01 <zzo38> I should write a new IRC client in JavaScript; currently the one I use is with PHP, but JavaScript is a better programming language I think. If I do that then I can also add TLS, and proper asynchronous stuff
00:09:04 <oerjan> on this host, the perl script i'm running isn't messing up tmux ... but tmux messes up itself in other ways :(
00:09:31 <shachaf> zzo38: What about a Gopher-IRC bridge?
00:09:56 <zzo38> shachaf: I think there isn't much point, although logs could be served using Gopher.
00:10:01 <int-e> shachaf: 0.8.15 may be fine though
00:10:13 <int-e> hard to say, and perhaps there were other bugs
00:10:19 <oerjan> figures that my admin would apply a patch in such a way that no one can see that it's a fixed version. i hope he at least did it right.
00:11:07 <zzo38> A server that has a built-in gopher too that can be used to serve status information too, though, could be made up.
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00:11:23 <oerjan> it is annoying that he didn't fix it on hagbart. so i have a choice between two partially broken setups...
00:12:00 <zzo38> I could also write IRC server program with JavaScript too.
00:12:34 <shachaf> oerjan: If you have Perl enabled, there's apparently a workaround script you can install.
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00:14:31 <oerjan> shachaf: i already did. it messes up tmux, as i said, although strangely not on this host, where tmux is however broken in other ways.
00:14:31 <int-e> . o O ( if this is debian, check dpkg-query -W irssi .. 0.8.17-1+deb8u1 is the patched one. )
00:15:04 <oerjan> yep, it's got that one.
00:16:47 <oerjan> hm i think hagbart isn't debian then, explain why he didn't fix it.
00:17:01 * oerjan has no idea how to find out the distribution
00:17:13 <oerjan> uname -a doesn't tell what it is
00:18:16 <oerjan> int-e: do you know a general linux command to find out which distribution you are using
00:20:03 <boily> hellørjan, int-ello.
00:20:05 <int-e> oerjan: I usually cat /etc/issue ... there's also lsb_release -idc
00:20:47 <oerjan> Kernel \r on an \m (\l)
00:21:16 <int-e> Debian GNU/Linux 8 \n \l
00:21:18 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: etc :: [Doc] -> Docerror:
00:21:18 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: issue :: [Doc] -> Doc
00:22:08 <oerjan> ah it's fedora. as i vaguely suspected.
00:22:14 <int-e> anyway, lsb_release is sort of standard (lsb = linux standard base)
00:24:47 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
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00:38:12 <oerjan> not very reliable logs today
00:38:51 <oerjan> pretty sure today is exceptional hth
00:39:13 <oerjan> also you left a trailing space, that will not do
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00:41:37 <oerjan> i was about to say it's the end times, but clearly it's the day of judgement.
00:46:02 <boily> moonythedwarf_: moo?
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00:46:32 <boily> today is a good day for 찌개.
00:47:28 <oerjan> boily: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/961.html
00:48:52 <boily> I put pork belly in mine ^^
00:49:21 <oerjan> as long as you can stomach it.
00:51:25 * boily is tempted to thwack oerjan, but will wait after he's done eating
00:58:23 <boily> mhellonythellodwarf_.
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01:06:54 <ais523> oh come on, there has to be a limit to porthello complexity :-)
01:16:21 <boily> his523. it's just like hot peppers: you start off with the easy ones, then next thing you know you're wolfing down ghosts.
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01:45:49 <Jafet> `` find -iname '*hello*' -a -perm -a=x
01:45:58 <HackEgo> ./bin/hello-world-in-any-language \ ./bin/hello \ ./share/hello \ ./src/ploki/examples/hello.pk
01:46:09 <Jafet> `` find -iname '*port*' -a -perm -a=x
01:46:12 <HackEgo> ./bin/sport \ ./bin/joustreport \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/contrib/fast-import \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/contrib/p4import \ ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/dist/_exporter \ ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/dist/_exporter/lib/_exporter \ ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/cpan/_devel-_p_p_port \ ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/_porting \ ./.hg/store/data/
01:46:30 <Jafet> `` find -iname 'port*' -a -perm -a=x
01:46:34 <HackEgo> ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/t/porting
01:47:40 <oerjan> i am not sure you really want to look in .hg
01:48:15 <Jafet> seems like it poisoned the search results
01:49:22 <oerjan> `` find -iname '*port*' -perm -a=x
01:49:25 <HackEgo> ./bin/sport \ ./bin/joustreport \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/contrib/fast-import \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/contrib/p4import \ ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/dist/_exporter \ ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/dist/_exporter/lib/_exporter \ ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/cpan/_devel-_p_p_port \ ./.hg/store/data/perl-5.22.2/_porting \ ./.hg/store/data/
01:50:42 <oerjan> `` find -iname '*port*' -a -perm -a=x | grep -v '\.hg'
01:50:46 <HackEgo> ./bin/sport \ ./bin/joustreport \ ./interps/fukyorbrane/report \ ./interps/bfjoust/report
01:51:33 <oerjan> i don't think those latter ones are working in HackEgo.
01:51:42 <HackEgo> bin/joustreport: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
01:52:03 <HackEgo> 2015-06-21 <tswett> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tswett> rm bin -r \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 3 \ 2013-01-12 <elliott> revert 1492 \ 2013-01-12 <FreeFull> revert 4 \ 2012-12-09 <oerjan> revert 999 \ 2012-12-09 <FreeFull> revert 0 \ 2012-06-08 <elliott>
01:52:17 <oerjan> `` doag bin/joustreport | tac
01:52:19 <HackEgo> 2012-06-08 <elliott> run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/joustreport \ 2012-06-08 <elliott> run echo "echo 'http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt'" >>bin/joustreport \ 2012-06-08 <elliott> run chmod +x bin/joustreport \ 2012-12-09 <FreeFull> revert 0 \ 2012-12-09 <oerjan> revert 999 \ 2013-01-12 <FreeFull> revert 4 \ 2013-01-12 <elliott> revert 1492 \ 2013-
01:53:54 <oerjan> i suppose that one isn't very useful any longer.
01:54:24 <HackEgo> distort "${1:-/dev/stdin}" | spore
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02:25:43 <HackEgo> echo 1 > /hackenv/tmp/spline; cat "${1-/dev/stdin}" > /hackenv/tmp/spout; spam
02:26:05 <HackEgo> line="$(cat /hackenv/tmp/spline)"; len="$(wc -l /hackenv/tmp/spout | awk '{print $1}')"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; sed -n "${line}p" /hackenv/tmp/spout; echo "$((line+1))" > /hackenv/tmp/spline
02:26:20 <HackEgo> 2/16:s channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 619) <oerjan> shachaf: wait, _you_ are in northumberland? <shachaf> No. <oerjan> whew <oerjan> we don't have room for more esolangers there. <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, *you* are in Northumberla
02:28:43 <oerjan> very logical naming scheme, that feature.
02:29:47 <FreeFull> `run echo "test 1 2 3 hello hi!" | sport
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02:32:12 <oerjan> `` yes | nl | head -1000 | sport
02:32:13 <HackEgo> 1/34: 1y \ 2y \ 3y \ 4y \ 5y \ 6y \ 7y \ 8y \ 9y \ 10y \ 11y \ 12y \ 13y \ 14y \ 15y \ 16y \ 17y \ 18y \ 19y \ 20y \ 21y \ 22y \ 23y \ 24y \ 25y \ 26y \ 27y \ 28y \ 29y \ 30y \
02:32:31 <oerjan> hm tabs aren't very pretty
02:42:05 <shachaf> Let me see if I can figure out all those names.
02:43:01 <shachaf> spam, spore = spam store?, sport = spore distort, spline = spam line, spout = spam out
02:43:33 <HackEgo> bin/spam \ bin/speek \ bin/spore \ bin/sport \ bin/spot \ bin/sprunge
02:44:23 <shachaf> speek = spam seek. or spout seek?
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02:53:19 <\oren\_> I think I've solved the last bug in the hangul generation software!
02:53:28 <HackEgo> 2015-06-21 <tswett> revert \ 2015-06-21 <tswett> rm bin -r \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2014-01-17 <oerjan> echo "echo Woof!" >bin/spot; chmod +x bin/spot
02:53:29 <\oren\_> http://orenwatson.be/allchars.htm
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03:11:26 <\oren\_> http://orenwatson.be/korean.PNG
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03:15:52 <\oren\_> is anyone who can judge the quality of korean fontery around?
03:16:27 <\oren\_> "fontery" <-- srsly brain, why do you invent such stupid words
03:17:45 <\oren\_> some of the more complex hangul sylables still look bad, but it seems they aren't used much
03:44:28 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 6m 11s ago: Jafet said 1h 56m 15s ago: at the risk of rapid cerebral impact for this chilly necro: I was referring to http://pizzachili.dcc.uchile.cl <-- in this case, your cerebral
03:44:28 <lambdabot> impact is due to not quoting context for something i've forgotten ages ago -----###
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04:42:17 <lambdabot> oerjan said 10m 7d 2h 23m 19s ago: <\oren\_> oh its god damn tmux fucking up unicide <-- no problems with that character with tmux + irssi here
04:42:57 <\oren\_> I already forgot what character is was
04:44:04 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\.
04:44:28 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 4h 40m 41s ago: <\oren\> the same process has been running since May 16th <-- you did get the message that irssi has a security flaw, right?
04:45:18 <alercah> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE
05:03:16 <\oren\> what characters should I add next? maybe Elvish!
05:03:37 <\oren\> er, the Tengwar of Feanor to be exact
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05:58:20 <\oren\> ok, done that. what next
05:58:55 <\oren\> oh, right what wikipedia article should I use for a korean sample?
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06:04:06 <alercah> unless you have a hidden 1 there
06:04:32 <alercah> exactly, so you have no integrand
06:04:52 <alercah> you need a function to integrate
06:05:05 <shachaf> no, i'm integrating a form
06:05:52 <alercah> the dx is defined as part of the notation to integrate
06:06:57 <shachaf> are you objecting because i didn't specify a manifold?
06:07:51 <alercah> no, it's assumed you're doing lagrange integration over the complexes unless otherwise specified
06:08:42 <shachaf> i bet you hate it when people write
06:10:58 <Jafet> if Manyfold writes an analysis textbook, would it be called Manyfold's On Calculus?
06:11:42 <shachaf> leibniz notation is too good
06:18:15 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod.
06:20:37 <shachaf> The standard integral notation is actually pretty odd.
06:21:44 <shachaf> Say I : (R -> R) -> {R -> R} is the indefinite integration operator.
06:22:26 <shachaf> Then I guess "∫ e dx" means something like I(\x. e)(x)
06:22:54 <shachaf> Where e and the whole expression both have x free.
06:24:25 <shachaf> relrod: How's the topology or whatever it was you were doing?
06:25:02 <relrod> shachaf: well I got through the category theory course last semester, but the prof made it very topology-focused, and I haven't taken topology yet so I was lost for part of it
06:25:09 <relrod> a rather large part of it :(
06:25:14 <relrod> he hadn't taught the course before
06:25:39 <relrod> and he primarily does topology, so of course most of his examples drew from that
06:25:51 <alercah> shachaf: do you intend to use the indefinite integral there?
06:26:46 <shachaf> relrod: well, how can you be expected to learn anything? i think he owes you a topology
06:27:47 <relrod> I'm taking Real Analysis this semester...which is interesting because I suck at analysis. But assuming that goes okay, I'll be taking topology next semester.
06:27:59 <relrod> that prof usually doesn't teach it though, he just researches it.
06:28:05 <shachaf> relrod: You should take the sneaky path by readin _Topology via Logic_ by Vickers
06:28:19 <relrod> shachaf: He _loves_ that book. It's on my reading list
06:28:32 <shachaf> Oh, then he can't be that bad.
06:29:00 <shachaf> That book is good if you're used to thinking about computer science and logic and things.
06:29:18 <shachaf> Even though the sorts of spaces it talks about aren't the sorts people usually talk about.
06:29:19 <relrod> He's good at what he does. I think he could perhaps improve in how he conveys ideas to others, but he's really good at what he does.
06:29:20 <alercah> shachaf: well because the indefinite integral isn't actually a function (R -> R) -> R -> R
06:29:30 <alercah> it's actually a function (R -> R) -> R -> R -> R
06:29:31 <shachaf> alercah: But I wrote (R -> R) -> {R -> R}
06:29:48 <alercah> shachaf: do you mean something other than implicit by the curlies?
06:30:14 <shachaf> I guess that's not good notation.
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06:30:25 <shachaf> Well, you can point out that it's indexed by R if you want.
06:30:35 <alercah> since the result is indeed indexed
06:30:38 <shachaf> But all I was saying was that it's a set of functions.
06:30:57 <shachaf> Which happen to have the property that they all differ by a constant.
06:31:48 <alercah> ∫ e dx is more like I(\x . e)
06:32:01 <shachaf> No, it's an expression in x
06:32:33 <alercah> hmm I guess you can see it that way
06:32:47 <shachaf> alercah: Well, there are many arguments about these things.
06:32:47 <alercah> no I mean seeing it as an expression and not a function
06:32:53 <shachaf> What would you say dy/dx means?
06:33:05 <alercah> it means you're a horrible person :P
06:33:26 <shachaf> If you have D : (R -> R) -> (R -> R), then the obvious meaning (to me) for dy/dx is D(\x. y)(x)
06:33:41 <alercah> I'm not familiar with formalisms of leibniz notation, though I know it can be done
06:33:43 <shachaf> But there are some issues because Leibniz notation is so good.
06:33:58 <shachaf> I'm not talking about infinitesimals or anything like that.
06:34:12 <shachaf> Just what people mean by the expression "dy/dx". Which is usually not divison.
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06:35:42 <shachaf> can you believe they teach people how to do matrix multiplication before telling them what the individual numbers in a matrix actually mean?
06:35:49 <alercah> I don't think of them as operating on expressions really though, at least not in the syntactic sense
06:35:51 <shachaf> how do they expect them to make any sense of it
06:36:06 <shachaf> You would say that it implicitly operates on functions?
06:36:27 <shachaf> But you agree that dx^2/dx = 2x
06:36:59 <shachaf> So at least syntactically those things look like expressions.
06:37:25 <shachaf> Anyway, Leibniz notation is much better than that.
06:38:16 <shachaf> Then dy/dx = 2x/3y^2 or something like that.
06:39:12 <shachaf> Even though neither x nor y is a function of the one.
06:40:37 <alercah> but there you're relying on implicitly viewing y as a function anyway
06:41:01 <alercah> the real ambiguity comes before leibniz notation enters the picture
06:41:21 <alercah> is it x \mapsto x^4? is it not defined?
06:41:43 <alercah> then you can't take its derivative
06:41:58 <shachaf> You can make a graph of all the points where y^2 = x^2
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06:42:11 <shachaf> And you can ask what the slope of a line tangent to the graph is.
06:42:29 <alercah> sure, but that's not a derivative, and in any case you're ascribing far more meaning
06:42:42 <alercah> not to mention leaving open ambiguity when the graph fails the vertical line test
06:43:01 <shachaf> "slope of a tangent line" is a pretty good meaning for "derivative"
06:43:05 <shachaf> Even if it's not of a function.
06:46:43 <alercah> your example doesn't even work
06:47:01 <alercah> because if you're making a graph of all the points where y^2 = x^2
06:47:24 <alercah> that's the union of the lines x = y and y = x
06:47:47 <shachaf> Yes, it's kind of a boring graph
06:47:56 <alercah> but what does this derivative mean?
06:48:10 <shachaf> But for any point (x,y), dy/dx = x/y
06:48:23 <alercah> like, what mathematical object is "dy/dx" in this case
06:48:36 <alercah> it seems to me you keep adding assumptions to the notation here
06:48:58 <shachaf> Er, I assume you mean y = x and y = -x
06:49:16 <alercah> What do you even mean when you say "y^2 = x^2"?
06:49:17 <shachaf> Let's take a better example.
06:49:34 <shachaf> Well, I can say what I mean. I mean a graph.
06:49:52 <shachaf> This one: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=y^2=x^2
06:51:02 <shachaf> But let's take the graph defined by x^2 + y^2 = 1, which is a bit more interesting.
06:51:09 <shachaf> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x^2%2By^2=1
06:52:23 <shachaf> We agree that this is a graph, and that neither x nor y is a function of the other one, and that at every point (x,y) in that graph, there's a tangent line?
07:00:32 <alercah> What is the mathematical thing you are trying to do here?
07:00:43 <shachaf> this is exploration, nt exploitation, yo
07:00:57 <shachaf> I'm talking aboout the great things that this notation lets you do.
07:01:10 <shachaf> Then maybe we can figure out how to formalize it.
07:01:33 <shachaf> I think the meaning of that graph, and the meaning of the tangent lines, is very intuitively obvious
07:01:54 <shachaf> So now we can say: d(x^2 + y^2) = d(1); 2x dx + 2y dy = 0; dy/dx = -x/y
07:02:02 <shachaf> What's d? I don't know exactly.
07:02:15 <shachaf> But at any point (x,y) on our circle, the slope of the tangent line is -x/y
07:05:02 <shachaf> In fact this is true for any radius of circle. Imagine we were only looking at the top half of the circle, and we said something like y = sqrt(1-x^2). Then the derivative as a function of x would be different for each radius. But this method reveals that it's always the same in terms of (x,y).
07:06:52 <shachaf> So that's pretty good. But you don't like this notation.
07:07:32 <shachaf> How about this old trick people do:
07:07:53 <alercah> I don't like it when people don't understand what they are doing
07:08:20 <alercah> In this case, I do agree that it shows something interesting, but that thing must be backed by a proof
07:08:38 <shachaf> dy/dx = Ky; dy/y = K dx; ∫ dy/y = ∫ K dx; log(y) + C = kx + D
07:08:38 <alercah> is there a way to formalize d in such a way as to make what you did a proof? probably, but I don't know it
07:08:49 <shachaf> alercah: Yes. I agree wholeheartedly.
07:09:12 <shachaf> I think this is a really good notation, and there must be a formalism that makes it work, more than just handwaving and special cases.
07:09:18 <shachaf> But I don't know what it is.
07:09:45 <alercah> so in the common case where it's being used for explicit differentiation, viewing dy/dx as a syntactic shorthand for a complex expression is fine
07:09:57 <alercah> but then you must be careful how you manipulate differentials
07:10:09 <shachaf> Can you give me a case where the obvious mafipulations don't work?
07:10:20 <shachaf> I call it mafipulation because it's unjustified manipulation.
07:10:28 <shachaf> I can't think of one either.
07:12:03 <alercah> probably something that inadvertently divides by 0
07:12:29 <shachaf> One where the differentials are to blame.
07:12:32 <alercah> I'll ponder it as I sleep maybe
07:16:43 <shachaf> alercah: If you think of counterexamples or formalizations or anything, I'd be interested.
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07:58:27 <Jafet> (such an amount of research level math might overflow this channel)
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11:25:56 <myname> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/bike-manufacturer-reduces-delivery-damage-70-per-cent-printing-tv-box-285180
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12:49:14 <izalove> where did noah keep his bees?
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13:15:34 <myname> did he have more than 2 bees? i guess 2 would probably have died horribly
13:19:36 <FireFly> boily: don' worry, he probably had two chickens too
13:20:28 <boily> always carry a spare chicken with you.
13:20:49 <int-e> it may you help cross ravines
13:21:25 <\oren\> can you judge typographical quality of these hangul?: http://orenwatson.be/korean.PNG
13:21:36 <int-e> I don't recall any ravens in the vicinity of Guybrush... hmm.
13:22:17 <int-e> \oren\: looks convincingly foreign *ducks*
13:23:51 <boily> \oren\: looks good to me. maybe stretch your ieungs a little bit more when they appear with a w- diphtong, and you're good to go.
13:24:42 <boily> for example, the ieung on 의 is too round.
13:25:45 <\oren\> oh, yeah. I should definitely fix that one. I think I'll just adjust it manually
13:29:35 <\oren\> speaking of alien, has anyone been so far as to make a sans-serif tengwar font?
13:30:43 <boily> there's a monospace one out there...
13:33:41 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: probably the most noticable problem is "고" and "과" (the vertical bit of ㅗ should be on the left side of the vertical stroke in ㄱ)
13:33:43 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/workingOnTengwar.PNG I knocked these off yesterday, I'm not sure if they're any good
13:34:08 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: got it. I'll fix that
13:35:20 <Jafet> tengwar's wikipedia article links to georgian script: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_scripts#Form_of_Asomtavruli_letters
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13:41:19 <\oren\> tengwar alwats reminds me more of gujarati
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15:40:36 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\_> I already forgot what character is was <-- well it is hard to @tell people who keep changing nicks all the time tdnh
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16:31:39 <wob_jonas> \oren\, I see you added hangul to your font!
16:57:20 * oerjan swats izalove -----###
16:57:31 <oerjan> there was a bee sitting on you hth
16:59:34 <wob_jonas> oerjan: a bee like http://pbfcomics.com/246/
17:01:40 <oerjan> <FireFly> boily: don' worry, he probably had two chickens too <-- fourteen hth
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17:03:45 <oerjan> redundant command is redundant
17:04:17 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ perl -e "$@"
17:12:57 <Taneb> oerjan, that seems a lot of chickens
17:14:40 <wob_jonas> `perl -e $x=sqrt 3;print$x+$x+$x; "I don't know what you guys are doing, but I must join"
17:15:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
17:15:10 <oerjan> Taneb: seven pairs hth
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17:15:38 <Taneb> oerjan, or two sevens
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17:16:40 <oerjan> well each pair is supposed to be one male and one female. which, come to think of it, is a bit weird for chickens.
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17:29:54 <quintopia> oerjan: do please expound your deep knowledge of chicken
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17:32:17 <oerjan> quintopia: my aunt once had some hth
17:32:57 <oerjan> also, i think you usually keep only one rooster
17:34:22 <quintopia> did she keep brood hens or broilers?
17:35:47 <oerjan> not very sure. it's been more than 30 years...
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20:05:27 <HackEgo> U+06CC ARABIC LETTER FARSI YEH \ UTF-8: db 8c UTF-16BE: 06cc Decimal: ی \ ی \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: AL (Right-to-Left Arabic)
20:06:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unicode: not found
20:06:35 <HackEgo> U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN \ UTF-8: c2 ad UTF-16BE: 00ad Decimal: ­ \ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
20:10:06 <\oren\> `unicode cool, i can change the topic again | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | htt
20:10:09 <\oren\> 17:35 -!- Moonheart08 [~IceChat9@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf] has joined #esoteric
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20:10:52 <HackEgo> U+06A9 ARABIC LETTER KEHEH \ UTF-8: da a9 UTF-16BE: 06a9 Decimal: ک \ ک \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: AL (Right-to-Left Arabic)
20:11:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unicode: not found
20:11:08 <\oren\> stupid bluetoth mouse is malfunctioning
20:11:21 <\oren\> selecting things on its own
20:11:27 <ais523> hmm, how come \oren\ can spell unicode and evilnoon can't
20:11:42 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import re \ import sys, os \ import unicodedata \ def l(c): m = re.match('(?:U[+])?([0-9a-f]{1,5})$', c, re.I); return unicodedata.lookup(c) if m is None else unichr(int(m.group(1),16)) \ try: \ print u''.join(map(l, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ os.execvp("multico
20:11:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unicode: not found
20:12:02 <ais523> `unidecode <evilnoon> `unicode
20:12:03 <HackEgo> [U+003C LESS-THAN SIGN] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0076 LATIN SMALL LETTER V] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL
20:12:14 <HackEgo> [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
20:12:23 <ais523> well that looks like it was spelled correctly…
20:12:34 <evilnoon> ais523: because im fooling with you, (SOFT HYPHEN)
20:12:35 <HackEgo> [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I]
20:12:38 <\oren\> ais523: he put a soft hyphen
20:12:51 <ais523> I found the shy just before you told me about it
20:13:02 <\oren\> which if you had a good font, you'd be able to see
20:13:15 <ais523> doesn't that defeat the point of a soft hyphen?
20:13:48 <evilnoon> they are good for messing with people :P
20:14:15 <ais523> evilnoon: nah, I was fairly convinced there was a hidden character or homograph character in there somewhere
20:14:29 <ais523> just took me a while to find it
20:15:22 <evilnoon> (SOFT HYPHEN)s are also good for messing with e *winks at firefly)
20:16:03 <FireFly> I though shy's was how e messed with one
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20:18:18 <\oren\> that character is an interesting one because it never actually appeared on the greek drachma notes
20:19:24 <\oren\> instead, notes and coins bore 'Δρχ' on them
20:20:20 <ais523> `` echo <evilnoon> `unicode ais523 | cat -c
20:20:21 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:20:24 <ais523> `` echo <evilnoon> `unicode ais523 | cat -v
20:20:25 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:20:31 <ais523> `` echo '<evilnoon> `unicode ais523' | cat -v
20:20:32 <HackEgo> <evilnoon> `unicodeM-BM-- ais523
20:20:38 <ais523> take that, soft hyphen
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20:37:11 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4h 56m 34s ago: <\oren\_> I already forgot what character is was <-- well it is hard to @tell people who keep changing nicks all the time tdnh
20:45:17 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; grep -l invalid *
20:45:25 <HackEgo> grep: ¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: icbm: Is a directory \ grep: le: Is a directory \ grep: ¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: ¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ ☾_ \ ørjan \ reflection
20:45:40 <HackEgo> ☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers.
20:47:06 * luxon is anti ☾_, he sometimes spits out papers
20:47:13 -!- luxon has changed nick to moon_.
20:47:39 -!- moon_ has changed nick to moon__.
20:47:51 <moon__> well then, somone clamed the nickname 'moon_'
20:48:36 <HackEgo> Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse.
20:49:14 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
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20:49:51 <alercah> is music not a tanebvention?
20:50:09 <ais523> taneb didn't invent everything, you know
20:50:21 <moon__> `addwisdom music is one of few things taneb did not invent
20:50:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: addwisdom: not found
20:50:39 <int-e> `le/rn music/The result was a short burst of the most hideous cacophony in G minor.
20:51:03 <HackEgo> The result was a short burst of the most hideous cacophony in G minor.
20:51:57 <alercah> `le/rn the most hideous cacophony in G minor/The Most Hideous Cacophony in G Minor is a musical work often incorrectly attributed to Beethoven and/or Taneb
20:52:01 <HackEgo> Learned «the most hideous cacophony in g minor»
20:52:19 <moon__> `? the most hideous cacophony in G mino
20:52:20 <HackEgo> the most hideous cacophony in G mino? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:52:23 <moon__> `? the most hideous cacophony in G minor
20:52:24 <HackEgo> The Most Hideous Cacophony in G Minor is a musical work often incorrectly attributed to Beethoven and/or Taneb
20:52:33 <int-e> Given the context it should be Bach, not Beethoven.
20:53:05 <alercah> `le/rn the most hideous cacophony in G minor/The Most Hideous Cacophony in G Minor (Op. -3) is a musical work often incorrectly attributed to Bach and/or Taneb
20:53:08 <HackEgo> Relearned «the most hideous cacophony in g minor»
20:53:12 <int-e> (Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency)
20:53:31 <Taneb> I've been working on something with a friend but given I don't have access to a Rust compiler right now I've handwritten the code
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20:54:17 <HackEgo> evilipse: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:56:49 <moon__> <breifhackegointro>hackego's prefix is `, ` runs a script with a single argument, `` runs valid bash </breifhackegointro>
20:57:22 -!- shachaf has left.
20:57:33 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
20:57:48 <HackEgo> File: `advice' \ Size: 4096 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 1024 directory \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 927683 Links: 2 \ Access: (0755/drwxr-xr-x) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2016-09-25 00:49:20.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2016-05-03 23:15:07.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2016-05-03 23:15:07.000000000 +0000 \ B
20:57:55 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
20:58:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:58:24 <moon__> hackego is built off a custom sandbox made by Gregor (hasent been seen in a while)
20:58:37 <moon__> go ahead, they dont care :P
20:58:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/advice
20:59:01 <moon__> int-e thats a invalid file
20:59:12 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
20:59:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: >~: not found
20:59:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ~: not found
20:59:48 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /tmp: Is a directory
20:59:49 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
20:59:55 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
21:00:00 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
21:00:20 <int-e> moon__: I can see it's a directory, but I wonder why it's not in the repo
21:00:31 <Sgeo> Etherium was forked? :/
21:00:38 <moon__> evilipse: we can rollback you know
21:00:49 <int-e> Sgeo: old news, or did they do that again?
21:01:02 <Sgeo> Old news (from this year)
21:01:03 <evilipse> `wget https://raw.githubusercontent.com/itslukej/ComputerCrashyCrashy/master/Main.py
21:01:04 <HackEgo> --2016-09-25 20:01:00-- https://raw.githubusercontent.com/itslukej/ComputerCrashyCrashy/master/Main.py \ Resolving raw.githubusercontent.com (raw.githubusercontent.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `raw.githubusercontent.com'
21:01:13 <int-e> Sgeo: I mean that was more than a month ago ;-)
21:01:17 -!- jeffl35 has joined.
21:01:32 <HackEgo> jeffl35: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:01:37 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:03:06 <HackEgo> bash: lci: command not found
21:04:12 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
21:04:18 <jeffl35> moon__: did you make hackego?
21:04:31 <moon__> Gregor (hasent been seen in a while) did
21:04:36 <int-e> Sgeo: 3 months even... time passes so quickly.
21:04:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `rm: not found
21:04:52 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/tmp': Permission denied
21:05:04 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:05:13 <HackEgo> chmod: invalid mode: `/tmp' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
21:05:21 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/tmp': Operation not permitted
21:05:24 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:05:25 <HackEgo> total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Sep 25 20:05 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Sep 25 20:05 .. \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Sep 25 20:05 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 27 5000 5000 4096 Sep 25 19:53 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Sep 25 20:05 home \ d
21:06:06 <moon__> it will end in 30 seconds or a minute, depends
21:06:28 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:06:44 <moon__> evilipse: i recommend you stop
21:06:58 <moon__> dont abuse the darn thing :P
21:07:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:07:06 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4/features': Operation not permitted \
21:07:07 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4/features': Operation not permitted \
21:07:09 <moon__> its slow, it runs on the same server as the wiki ( i beleive)
21:07:10 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 0.0 0.1 1012 272 ? S 20:07 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 20:07 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 20:07 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ?
21:07:40 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4/features': Operation not permitted \
21:07:41 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: htop: command not found
21:07:55 <moon__> kids in a candy store at night
21:08:12 <jeffl35> moon__: lets add a lolcode interpreter to otherbot :P
21:08:43 <moon__> int-e i think i broke something halp, either me or them
21:08:59 <HackEgo> abort: repository /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env not found!
21:09:34 -!- moon__ has left ("FIZZIE HALP").
21:09:49 <jeffl35> i didn't --no-preserve-root yet
21:09:59 -!- moon__ has joined.
21:10:16 <HackEgo> abort: repository /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env not found!
21:10:36 <moon__> apparently hackego suffered annihilation
21:11:47 <moon__> fizzie? int-e? the mercuial is down
21:11:55 <moon__> the repository is gone
21:12:03 <fizzie> What you did was to remove all permissions from the hg repo directory.
21:12:13 <moon__> that was evilipse and jeffl35
21:12:15 <fizzie> So I will need to revert back a bit manually.
21:13:08 <fizzie> Yes, the sandbox stuff wasn't apparently really expecting that.
21:13:31 <moon__> so they found a way to bonk it. might want to patch that
21:13:52 <moon__> IF you know how Gregor's sandbox software works
21:14:40 <fizzie> I'm just looking at a suitable commit to revert back to (plus how to do it), because I'd rather not have those all-777 permissions everywhere, they look spectacularly ugly.
21:15:01 <moon__> 942e964c81c1 should do it, iots the first one before they came along
21:15:11 <int-e> fizzie: 942e964c81c1 was fine. were the chmods actually committed?
21:15:14 <moon__> its the one i reverted it back to repeatedly
21:15:55 <fizzie> int-e: Only the "chmod 777 / -R" is in.
21:17:37 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:17:43 <fizzie> That took quite a while.
21:17:50 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
21:18:57 <moon__> `le\rn evilipse\ the most evil of evil people, likes to use chmod 000 / -R
21:18:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: le\rn: not found
21:19:12 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \
21:19:18 <fizzie> It's the other sort of slash.
21:19:25 <HackEgo> /: \ total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Sep 25 20:19 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Sep 25 20:19 .. \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Sep 25 20:19 etc \ drwx--x--x 27 5000 5000 4096 Sep 25 20:17 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Sep 25 20:19
21:19:29 <moon__> `le/rn evilipse/ the most evil of evil people, likes to use chmod 000 / -R
21:19:41 <fizzie> That extra space in the beginning is a bit silly.
21:20:01 <HackEgo> the most evil of evil people, likes to use chmod 000 / -R
21:20:32 <fizzie> From what I've seen so far, I think "obnoxious" is a better adjective.
21:20:50 <moon__> `le/rn evilipse/ the most obnoxious of evil people, likes to use chmod 000 / -R
21:21:33 <jeffl35> ls -alR /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env
21:21:38 <jeffl35> `` ls -alR /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env
21:21:40 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env: No such file or directory
21:21:55 <moon__> thats a artifact of the bot's main script
21:22:16 <jeffl35> `` ls -alR /home/../home/../././././../home/./././././hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env
21:22:18 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /home/../home/../././././../home/./././././hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env: No such file or directory
21:23:20 <jeffl35> `` rm --no-preserve-root -rf /home
21:23:21 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/revert': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/fe
21:23:24 <fizzie> That's not a path that makes sense inside the environment the commands run in.
21:23:46 <fizzie> Okay, that's just *stupid*.
21:24:02 <moon__> fizzie: if hackego has a block list, use it
21:24:44 <fizzie> There was some sort of a thing, but I'm not terribly familiar with it.
21:25:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:25:19 <jeffl35> `` git clone https://github.com/justinmeza/lci && cd lci
21:25:23 -!- Time-Wrap has joined.
21:25:26 -!- evilipse has left ("Leaving").
21:25:30 <jeffl35> oh right Time-Wrap borked it
21:25:39 <moon__> ais523: dont look now, but evilipse decided to chmod 000 / -R
21:25:59 <ais523> moon__: where? hackego?
21:26:08 <ais523> that's easy enough to fix
21:26:21 <ais523> oh, does `revert not handle file modes?
21:26:29 <moon__> fizzie has to manually repair it
21:26:41 <moon__> it borks the bot entirely
21:26:42 <fizzie> ais523: `revert does, but the sandbox is all confused if there's no access to the repo working directory.
21:26:50 <fizzie> ais523: So I need to manually chmod, then revert.
21:26:55 <ais523> in that case maybe we've found a second way to break the bot
21:27:13 <ais523> I was quite pleased with myself when I (admittedly inadvertently) broke `revert
21:27:13 <fizzie> ais523: The stupid part here is that it was already done once, and then just repeated.
21:27:18 <ais523> so that it displayed an error message every time
21:27:31 <ais523> IIRC that still hasn't been fixed
21:27:53 <fizzie> I was trying to figure out if freenode's chanserv has some sort of auto-timed ban feature, actually.
21:28:28 <int-e> I don't think so; I've only seen the eir service bot handle ban timeouts.
21:28:41 <jeffl35> fizzie: you can timed akick
21:29:19 <fizzie> Well, maybe third time will be the charm.
21:29:23 <int-e> fizzie: is there a tr_60.cmd script with a hard-coded list of nicks?
21:29:28 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
21:29:34 <fizzie> int-e: There was something like that, yes.
21:29:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
21:29:44 <fizzie> int-e: Though a nick-based list isn't exactly the most robust thing in the world.
21:29:47 <jeffl35> `` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban
21:29:57 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/meta_bg_resize': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/batched_discard': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/ext4/features/lazy_itable_init': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/fs/cgroup': Permission denied \ rm: cannot remove `/sys/bus/cpu/devices/cpu0': Permission
21:30:15 <ais523> recursive rm /is/ something that the bot should be able to guard against
21:30:20 <int-e> (that may also be the right place to fix up permissions... though I'm a bit confused by the fact that they are getting messed up permanently in the first place.
21:30:28 <HackEgo> canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ factor \ good \ hw \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quotes \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
21:30:46 <ais523> come to think of it, it's even possible it'd delete the incorrect permissions and let the revert restore the correct ones
21:31:03 <jeffl35> anyways i want my lolcode interpreter
21:31:07 <ais523> although bin seems to be missing
21:31:09 <fizzie> int-e: Well, they aren't, really. The chmod 000 just sets the working copy directory permissions, and doesn't commit anything.
21:31:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `l*: not found
21:31:16 <jeffl35> `` git clone https://github.com/justinmeza/lci && cd lci
21:31:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
21:31:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
21:31:33 <fizzie> Huh, that's the weirdest.
21:31:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
21:31:46 <ais523> oh wow, it seems it deleted advice, bin, and ibin
21:31:50 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:31:53 <ais523> and left everything else the same?
21:31:57 <Time-Wrap> yeeeeaahhhhhh boiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
21:31:59 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah. I think that might've been the timeout.
21:32:07 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:32:08 <jeffl35> `` git clone https://github.com/justinmeza/lci && cd lci
21:32:08 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: git: command not found
21:32:19 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: unzip: command not found
21:32:22 <ais523> jeffl35: it mostly doesn't have internet access
21:32:57 -!- ais523 has quit.
21:33:15 <fizzie> That's probably Gregor's peculiarities, he's sort of a mercurial guy.
21:33:49 <moon__> if your lucky fizzie may be nice and throw the git repository in the bot for you
21:34:08 <jeffl35> i just like lolcode for some random reason
21:34:23 <moon__> tip: hackego does not support multiline
21:34:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure it's very well-suited for IRC, isn't it a bit verbose?
21:34:30 <jeffl35> HAI 1.2, I HAZ A POKE, GIMMEH POKE, VISIBLE "I POKES :{POKE}", KTHXBYE
21:34:59 <fizzie> Well, there's a built-in `fetch command that has internet access, you can download a tarball.
21:35:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/bin/sh': Read-only file system
21:35:23 <moon__> jeffl35: thre is a article for it on the esolang wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/LOLCODE
21:35:26 <moon__> could use some updating
21:35:45 <jeffl35> just tell people to go to wikipedia
21:35:50 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:36:04 <jeffl35> (and the wikipedia article is fine except for file i/o)
21:36:33 <moon__> the esolang wiki article contains more info than the wikipedia article
21:36:43 <int-e> fizzie: I'm irritated that the permissions on the working directory prevent it from executing any command, even if it's in /bin. But I only know some bits and pieces of the bot, and they're probably outdated.
21:37:16 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, it's a bit scow.
21:37:19 <int-e> (gleaned from gregor's public repos)
21:38:00 * Zarutian hopes that \oren\ gets over the Bluetoothache.
21:39:46 <myname> does anybode know an android app that lets you do basic image processing? most stuff i find just puts filters over everything
21:40:00 <fizzie> int-e: It might even be the UML refusing to run if given a --translate-write path with no permissions; I could imagine it trying to stat it or something.
21:41:22 <fizzie> I don't know; I seem to recall some logfile somewhere, but at least the main log (with all input/output) had no error messages in it.
21:42:04 <int-e> fizzie: Oh, darn, if the mount target directory isn't accessible, the mount call will probably fail.
21:42:32 <int-e> And there are quite a few things mounted directly under /hackenv
21:43:48 -!- otherbot has joined.
21:44:10 <moon__> jeffl35: please state the purpose of having otherbot here >_>
21:44:18 <int-e> (well, at least .hg)
21:45:41 -!- otherbot has left.
21:45:42 -!- augur has joined.
21:46:15 <fizzie> int-e: At any rate, since `revert runs outside, as an easy fix it could do some sanity-restoring of the working copy first, since it then is going to run the 'hg revert' on it anyway.
21:48:05 <int-e> Yeah. In fact, ensuring that $HACKENV has +rwx for the user could just be enough, because then the mercurial repo is readable, and mercurial might be smart enough to figure out the rest.
21:48:17 -!- otherbot has joined.
21:51:15 <fizzie> It's also scow how the web repository browser goes inaccessible when the working copy permissions are bad. Makes it harder to see what has happened so far. Maybe the whole transact logic should just in general enforce u+rwx on the env directory.
21:51:20 <fizzie> It's nice to speculate, but it's not like we've gotten around to fixing the previous issue either. I don't want to too much to the existing bot instance because I don't know if Gregor's actually "using" it still, and it might complicate future updates if I do a patch that's not in whatever source control he's using.
21:51:57 <fizzie> Well, maybe a shower will help.
21:52:54 <int-e> woo, my CaC has 8 days uptime and still no write or read errors on sda!
21:53:06 <int-e> I think that's some sort of record.
21:58:03 -!- moon__ has changed nick to moonythedwardf.
21:58:06 -!- moonythedwardf has changed nick to moonythedwarf.
22:02:03 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
22:02:12 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
22:02:55 <HackEgo> #esoteric-blah? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:03:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CatIsFluffy * New user account
22:04:08 <moonythedwarf> i wonder if mr/ms/mrs new user will get on the channel
22:05:21 -!- Cale has joined.
22:06:00 <HackEgo> cale: #hopefully: i: did: this: right: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric
22:06:28 <HackEgo> cale: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:09:41 <int-e> Cale is an oldtimer who has recently found the way to #esoteric.
22:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49760&oldid=49749 * CatIsFluffy * (+247)
22:10:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:10:50 <int-e> (and I've also not been on this channel for most of its existence... I don't recall monqy)
22:10:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minebit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49761&oldid=46230 * CatIsFluffy * (+171) added detail about computational class with infinite data tape
22:11:15 <Cale> bbiab, I'm actually moving this computer :)
22:11:50 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:12:29 <moonythedwarf> looks like someone hit the 'random esolang' button
22:12:58 <jeffl35> -lol HAI 1.2,VISIBLE "OHAI",KTHXBYE
22:13:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CatIsFluffy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49762 * CatIsFluffy * (+72) Created page with "I made the [[Talk:Quiney|Quiney interpreter]] and [[Syms]]. Good for me."
22:14:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:50.161.94.113]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49763&oldid=46320 * CatIsFluffy * (+49)
22:16:51 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:17:40 <jeffl35> -pad HAI 1.2, VISIBLE "OHAI", KTHXBYE
22:17:42 <otherbot> Error opening file '/home/ubuntu/workspace/modules/lcipadcode'.
22:17:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lazy evaluation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49764&oldid=42771 * CatIsFluffy * (+1) Finished article by request
22:18:02 <jeffl35> -pad HAI 1.2, VISIBLE "OHAI", KTHXBYE
22:18:41 <jeffl35> -pad HAI 1.2, I HAS A POKE, POKE R "moonythedwarf", VISIBLE "I POKES :{POKE}", KTHXBYE
22:19:00 <jeffl35> -pad HAI 1.2, I HAS A POKE, POKE R "moonythedwarf", VISIBLE "I POKES :{POKE}", KTHXBYE
22:20:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Syms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49765&oldid=46587 * CatIsFluffy * (-9) Hi!
22:22:26 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined.
22:22:57 <zzo38> For aircraft weight and balance calculation the plot will have an envelope that has a polygon that it is necessary for the plot to be inside of. Is such polygon guaranteed to be monotone or other properties?
22:24:03 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:25:55 <int-e> zzo38: doesn't look that way: https://sites.google.com/site/aerodynamics4students/table-of-contents/aircraft-performance-1/flight-envelope
22:27:10 <int-e> even less convex: http://s6.aeromech.usyd.edu.au/aerodynamics/index.php/sample-page/aircraft-performance/flight-envelope/
22:27:14 <moonythedwarf_> -pad HAI 1.2,I HAS A YAY,YAY R "IOVOID",YAY,WTF?,OMG "IOVOID",VISIBLE "PING.IO",GTFO,OMG "JEFFL35",VISIBLE "OHAI JEFF",GTFO,OMGWTF,VISIBLE "OHAI",GTFO,OIC,KTHXBYE
22:27:54 <jeffl35> oh and don't forget padclr
22:28:03 <jeffl35> moonythedwarf_: can you make padclr run automatically after lolr
22:28:14 <jeffl35> because once you KTHXBYE you can't really add anything to it
22:30:00 <jeffl35> -pad HAI 1.2,VISIBLE "lol",KTHXBYE
22:30:04 <otherbot> /home/ubuntu/workspace/modules/lcipadcode:1: expected HAI at: end of file
22:30:17 <zzo38> int-e: That looks different from the weight and balance plots that I have seen, and I do not see weight and balance calculation mentioned there.
22:33:06 <fizzie> For the record, putting a lolcode thing on HackEgo would be quite okay, though you'd likely need to find/make a tarball to get it there. And you could also add commands for a pad-like thing using a /hackenv/tmp/pad file for unversioned state.
22:33:17 <zzo38> The plots I meant have weight plotted on the Y axis and position on the X axis.
22:33:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49766&oldid=49055 * Luis Mendo * (+29) Turing-complete category
22:33:53 <moonythedwarf_> fizzie: i understand that, me and jeffl develop otherbot in javascript, a language we are familiar with, i may try and tackle it for hackego however
22:34:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49767&oldid=49766 * Luis Mendo * (+0)
22:34:39 <fizzie> Well, that's fine too.
22:36:07 <fizzie> Heh, I hadn't logged in to bitbucket for so long, they've completely revamped their account system as well.
22:38:05 <otherbot> Error opening file '/home/ubuntu/workspace/modules/lcipadcode'.
22:38:18 <fizzie> Ugh. Atlassian's account verification thing sends an HTML-only email, and the HTML-only email contains <img ... alt="Download images and then verify your email address!" />
22:39:57 <fizzie> I'm not sure what's in the images, because the verify-my-email link is also in the text.
22:40:04 <fizzie> Maybe they'll quiz me on the images later.
22:40:46 <fizzie> (The verify link is 520 characters long.)
22:43:32 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:43:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NRSRSSOMN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49768&oldid=39323 * CatIsFluffy * (+154)
22:45:38 <otherbot> jeffl35: echo ping pong eval flushq help list use store cash inv savecstate buy sell give kick ban unban op deop attack poke join part reload whois nick pyc pad pyr giac befr padclr lol lolr
22:46:29 <otherbot> jeffl35: echo ping pong eval flushq help list use store cash inv savecstate buy sell give kick ban unban op deop attack poke join part reload whois nick pyc pad pyr giac befr padclr lolr
22:47:12 <jeffl35> well, now it runs befunge and lolcode
22:47:30 <fizzie> That's even more suitable for IRC.
22:48:29 <int-e> zzo38: okay. take https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/ca-publications/chart1b.jpg then. (see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_%28aeronautics%29)
22:49:22 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
22:50:15 <moonythedwarf_> i wonder what the perfect programming language (that can be ran by a computer) would be for IRC
22:51:14 <jeffl35> fizzie: maybe if you don't download the images from the server then it won't let you verify, lol
22:51:39 <moonythedwarf_> tswett: annoying to sandbox safely, especially on a bot written in it (otherbot)
22:52:28 <jeffl35> tswett: my friend has broken every single javascript sandbox in existence
22:52:35 <izalove> moonythedwarf_: you can pass your code to something that runs in qemu
22:52:38 <jeffl35> including math.js, the VM module, etc
22:52:51 <jeffl35> izalove: that's no longer a sandbox, lol, that's virtualization
22:53:22 <tswett> jeffl35: including, say, Firefox?
22:53:34 <jeffl35> tswett: no, i mean in node.js
22:53:38 <izalove> moonythedwarf_: there's geirha/shbot on github
22:53:40 <zzo38> int-e: O, OK. It isn't a polygon, although it is still seeming monotone property.
22:53:52 <jeffl35> like something that is written in javascript but wishes to safely execute js code
22:54:06 <tswett> If you want something sandboxable, the only other things that come to my mind are Lua and .NET.
22:54:07 <jeffl35> -giac solve(32x^23-31x^2+1,x)
22:54:07 <otherbot> Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added 0 synonyms Warning, argument is not an equation, solving 32*x^23-31*x^2+1=0 list[-0.179605302027,0.179605302027,0.996921666093] // Time 0.01 // Total time 0.01
22:54:23 <tswett> Oh, and don't forget Java.
22:54:25 <zzo38> Do you have version 6 of Node.js? If so, then you can use proxy objects.
22:54:41 <jeffl35> tswett: well with pypy-c-sandbox, python (rather limited) is sandboxable
22:54:48 <otherbot> Traceback (most recent call last): | File "app_main.py", line 72, in run_toplevel | File "app_main.py", line 578, in run_it | File "<string>", line 1, in <module> | NameError: global name 'efef' is not defined | [Subprocess exit code: 1] |
22:55:18 <otherbot> You dont have a valid codepad!
22:56:14 <moonythedwarf_> if one of you can make a sandbox Iovoid cannot break, then i will use that for JS
22:56:29 <zzo38> When using Node.js's VM module there are many considerations to make when executing sandboxed code. For one thing, to make the sandbox object with no prototype.
22:57:02 <zzo38> moonythedwarf_: What version of Node.js are you using though?
22:57:23 <jeffl35> zzo38: when iovoid reported the bug, they were like "oh well it wasn't designed for that"
22:57:43 <jeffl35> with constructors and such
22:58:28 <jeffl35> <iovoid> -calc x=f.constructor("return process.exit()");x()
22:58:49 <zzo38> Yes, there are things like that that can be done.
22:59:05 <zzo38> So, don't bring external functions into the sandbox exposed!
22:59:41 <moonythedwarf_> zzo38: we may try using a custom compiled copy of google's v8 engine for JS
22:59:49 <zzo38> You can create a function inside of the sandbox instead.
23:00:08 <zzo38> Can you install the latest version of Node.js? Version 4.5.0 is too old
23:00:59 <int-e> moonythedwarf_: HQ9+ with an abridged version of 9.
23:01:03 -!- otherbot has quit (Quit: Caught SIGINT).
23:01:54 <zzo38> I have version 6.4.0 on my own computer
23:06:19 -!- otherbot has joined.
23:08:57 <zzo38> Also if you ensure that "use strict" is specified then you cannot use the callee/caller values to determine what called it.
23:10:43 <zzo38> OK, so you have already done that.
23:12:55 <zzo38> You could possibly to execute something like this in the sandbox to bring a function into the sandbox: (x=>y=>{ "use strict"; if(typeof y!=="number") throw new TypeError(); return x(y); })
23:13:13 <zzo38> (I don't konw if there are other problems with this, but this is one thing I have thought of.)
23:14:02 <fizzie> int-e: I like umlbox's sophisticated kernel autoconfiguration mechanism. (Makefile with "yes '' | $(MAKE) ARCH=um oldconfig" in it.)
23:16:41 <zzo38> (You also will have to be safe if the function you are wrapping is going to return any kind of object.)
23:18:59 <zzo38> Do you know how to write Node.js addons? I don't understand it, so I hoped you would know.
23:22:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:23:41 -!- iovoid has joined.
23:23:56 <zzo38> I don't know, but I thought we might already have Underload on this IRC
23:24:00 <HackEgo> iovoid: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:30:21 -!- moonythedwarf_ has changed nick to evilmoon.
23:31:42 -!- jeffl35 has changed nick to eviljeff.
23:32:11 -!- iovoid has changed nick to evilvoid.
23:32:11 <zzo38> iovoid: Do you know the way to sandbox that cannot break? I had several ideas including one is that the sandbox object should have no prototype, and other is to bring a function into the sandbox by executing a code like this inside of the sandbox: (x=>y=>{ "use strict"; if(typeof y!=="number") throw new TypeError(); return x(y); }) Other idea involved using proxy objects
23:33:45 <evilvoid> sandboxes at the code level can be broken easy
23:34:07 <evilvoid> Just because of how javascript works you can hide constructors
23:34:55 <evilmoon> we tried that remember evilvoid? you can use the constructor's constructor
23:35:27 <evilmoon> javascript can be considered self modifiying
23:35:56 <zzo38> I think since ES6 you can hide constructors if you are careful.
23:35:56 <evilvoid> All the things can be turned into functions with constructors
23:36:28 <evilvoid> like Number, Function, Symbol and that
23:36:42 <zzo38> You can create an object with no prototype, and primitives are not objects.
23:37:03 <evilvoid> Everything is JS is a object when operations are done
23:37:13 <evilvoid> like Object.toString(42) returns [object Number]
23:37:36 <zzo38> So a primitive number or symbol can be used without being an object. Yes, other than undefined and void, everything can be accessed their properties as if it is an object, but it isn't an object.
23:38:20 <evilvoid> try 42.constructor, it will return Number, and the constructor of Number is Function
23:38:27 <zzo38> A function is an object, but I suggested a way to wrap a function like the way I mentioned above
23:38:32 <zzo38> evilvoid: Yes, I know that.
23:38:47 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:40:05 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:40:15 <evilvoid> In the function you said it wouldnt be a real sandbox, just a calculator with very limited options
23:40:35 <zzo38> Try this: vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42)==Function the result is false.
23:41:06 <zzo38> Because, the value passed is a primitive and not an object, so it has the sandbox's Function and not the outside's Function, that is why it is false.
23:41:27 -!- Cale has joined.
23:41:41 <zzo38> Do you understand what I mean now?
23:41:47 <evilvoid> > vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42).toString()
23:41:47 <evilvoid> 'function Function() { [native code] }'
23:41:49 <lambdabot> No module named ‘Object’ is imported.
23:42:45 <HackEgo> #esoteric evilvoid? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:42:47 <eviljeff> -eval vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42).toString()
23:42:47 <otherbot> ReferenceError: vm is not defined
23:42:48 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:1)
23:42:48 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:42:49 <zzo38> Yes, the result is Function, but the sandbox's Function.
23:42:49 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:42:50 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:42:51 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:42:51 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:42:52 <otherbot> at /home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:192:17
23:42:59 <zzo38> So, it is a different Function.
23:43:22 <evilmoon> -eval global.vm = require("vm"); // There, now it will work
23:43:22 <otherbot> { Script: [Function: ContextifyScript],
23:43:24 <otherbot> runInDebugContext: [Function],
23:43:36 <evilmoon> -eval vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42).toString()
23:43:36 <otherbot> 'function Function() { [native code] }'
23:43:36 <evilvoid> -eval vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42).toString()
23:43:37 <otherbot> 'function Function() { [native code] }'
23:43:55 <eviljeff> -eval vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42).toString()
23:43:55 <otherbot> 'function Function() { [native code] }'
23:44:06 <eviljeff> -eval vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42)
23:44:21 <evilvoid> -eval vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42)("return 2+2")()
23:44:41 <evilmoon> -eval vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42)("return process.exit")()
23:44:41 <otherbot> ReferenceError: process is not defined
23:44:42 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27)), <anonymous>:2:8)
23:44:42 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:115)
23:44:43 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:44:44 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:44:50 <zzo38> Try: new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("process.exit(1)")() See that it doesn't work.
23:44:53 <evilvoid> -eval Function.constructor == Function
23:45:06 <evilmoon> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("process.exit(1)")()
23:45:07 <otherbot> ReferenceError: process is not defined
23:45:07 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27)), <anonymous>:2:1)
23:45:08 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:118)
23:45:09 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:45:10 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:45:10 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:45:21 <evilvoid> You have to escape the context there
23:45:44 <zzo38> If you pass {} instead of 42 then it will exit, though.
23:45:50 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("process.exit(1)").toString()
23:45:50 <otherbot> 'function anonymous() {\nprocess.exit(1)\n}'
23:45:57 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("process.exit(1)")()
23:45:57 <otherbot> ReferenceError: process is not defined
23:45:57 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27)), <anonymous>:2:1)
23:45:58 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:118)
23:45:59 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:45:59 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:46:00 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:46:01 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:46:14 -!- otherbot has quit (Quit: Caught SIGINT).
23:46:32 -!- otherbot has joined.
23:46:54 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return this")()
23:46:54 <otherbot> ReferenceError: vm is not defined
23:46:55 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:7)
23:46:56 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:46:56 <zzo38> Because, the {} passed is an object from outside of the sandbox and therefore has the constructor from outside of the sandbox, but if you pass 42 then it is a primitive so it is converted inside of the sandbox instead.
23:46:56 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:46:57 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:46:58 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:46:58 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:46:59 <otherbot> at /home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:192:17
23:47:01 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:173:9)
23:47:06 <evilmoon> -eval global.vm = require("vm"); // There, now it will work
23:47:07 <otherbot> { Script: [Function: ContextifyScript],
23:47:09 <otherbot> runInDebugContext: [Function],
23:47:13 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return this")()
23:47:26 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return this.constructor.constructor('return this')")()
23:47:31 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return this.constructor.constructor('return this')")()()
23:48:10 <zzo38> See? It is not the same Function object.
23:48:17 <otherbot> ReferenceError: test is not defined
23:48:17 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:1)
23:48:18 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:48:19 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:48:19 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:48:20 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:48:21 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:48:34 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return this.constructor.constructor('return this')()")()
23:48:34 <zzo38> Do you believe me now?
23:49:03 <evilmoon> zzo38; give evilvoid time to test your theory out
23:49:42 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (this.constructor.constructor('this'))()")()
23:49:56 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function(this.constructor.constructor('this'))()")()
23:50:00 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function(this.constructor.constructor('this'))()")
23:50:04 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function(this.constructor.constructor('this'))()").toString()
23:50:04 <otherbot> 'function anonymous() {\nreturn Function(this.constructor.constructor(\'this\'))()\n}'
23:50:11 <evilmoon> is the undefined incontext our out of context?
23:50:36 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function(\this.constructor.constructor(\'this\')')()")
23:50:36 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:50:37 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:50:38 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:50:38 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:50:39 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:50:40 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:50:40 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function(this.constructor.constructor(\'this\')')()")
23:50:41 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:50:42 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:50:42 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:50:43 <zzo38> If it is a primitive then it is irrelevant.
23:50:43 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:50:44 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:50:56 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function('this.constructor.constructor(\'this\')')()")
23:50:56 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:50:57 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:50:58 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:50:58 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:50:59 <evilmoon> otherbot is good for proving points in JS
23:50:59 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:51:00 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:51:01 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:51:01 <otherbot> at /home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:192:17
23:51:03 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:173:9)
23:51:12 <eviljeff> evilmoon: not when it dumps exceptions into a channel
23:51:41 * evilmoon waits for fizzie to be done with his now hour long shower to come yell at us
23:51:42 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function('this.constructor.constructor(\'this\')')()")()
23:51:43 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:51:43 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:51:44 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:51:45 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:51:45 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:51:46 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:51:47 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:51:47 <otherbot> at /home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:192:17
23:51:50 <eviljeff> maybe it's just because we're using old node.js
23:52:02 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function('this.constructor.constructor(\'this\')')()")
23:52:02 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:52:02 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:52:03 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:52:04 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:52:05 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:52:05 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:52:06 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:52:07 <otherbot> at /home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:192:17
23:52:08 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:173:9)
23:52:09 <evilmoon> i already installed the update
23:52:23 <evilmoon> nodejs is the latest, node is the 4.5.0
23:52:39 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))
23:52:42 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))()
23:52:45 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))()()
23:52:59 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))(42)("return Function('this.constructor.constructor(\'this\')')()")
23:53:04 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function('this.constructor.constructor(\'this\')')()")
23:53:04 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:53:05 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:53:06 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:53:06 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:53:07 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:53:08 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:53:08 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:53:09 <otherbot> at /home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:192:17
23:53:10 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:173:9)
23:53:17 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function('this.constructor.constructor(\'this\')'))()")
23:53:17 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:53:18 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:53:19 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:53:20 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:53:20 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:53:21 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:53:22 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:53:22 <otherbot> at /home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:192:17
23:53:24 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:173:9)
23:53:49 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return 2+2")
23:53:51 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return 2+2")()
23:54:34 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function('this.constructor.constructor(\'return this\')')")
23:54:34 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:54:35 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:54:36 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:54:37 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:55:17 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function('this.constructor.constructor(\'return this\')')")
23:55:17 <otherbot> SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list
23:55:17 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:55:18 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:55:23 <evilmoon> eviljeff: its alreayd installed idiot >_<
23:55:23 <eviljeff> restarting otherbot (update node.js)
23:55:27 -!- otherbot has quit (Quit: Caught SIGINT).
23:55:39 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function('return this')")
23:55:47 -!- otherbot has joined.
23:55:57 <eviljeff> jeffl35:/etc/apt/sources.list.d $ node -v
23:55:57 <eviljeff> jeffl35:/etc/apt/sources.list.d $ nodejs -v
23:56:17 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return x.constructor('return this')")
23:56:17 <otherbot> ReferenceError: vm is not defined
23:56:18 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:7)
23:56:19 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:56:19 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:56:32 <evilmoon> -eval global.vm = require("vm")
23:56:32 <otherbot> { Script: [Function: ContextifyScript],
23:56:34 <otherbot> runInDebugContext: [Function],
23:56:42 <evilvoid> -eval global.vm = require("vm"); // There, now it will work
23:56:42 <otherbot> { Script: [Function: ContextifyScript],
23:56:44 <otherbot> runInDebugContext: [Function],
23:56:47 <otherbot> isContext: [Function: isContext] }
23:56:50 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return x.constructor('return this')")
23:56:53 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return x.constructor('return this')")()
23:56:54 <otherbot> ReferenceError: x is not defined
23:56:54 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27)), <anonymous>:2:8)
23:56:55 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:138)
23:56:56 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:56:56 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:57:06 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return 42.constructor.constructor('return this')")()
23:57:06 <otherbot> SyntaxError: Invalid or unexpected token
23:57:07 <otherbot> at eval (eval at <anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:27), <anonymous>:1:2)
23:57:07 <otherbot> at .code (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:65:17)
23:57:08 <otherbot> at run (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:48:10)
23:57:09 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.<anonymous> (/home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:252:25)
23:57:09 <otherbot> at emitThree (events.js:116:13)
23:57:10 <otherbot> at EventEmitter.emit (events.js:194:7)
23:57:11 <otherbot> at /home/ubuntu/workspace/ircbot.js:192:17
23:57:12 -!- otherbot has quit (Client Quit).
23:57:17 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this')")()
23:57:34 -!- otherbot has joined.
23:57:45 <eviljeff> lets hope 6.6.0 doesn't break anything
23:57:51 <evilvoid> -eval global.vm = require("vm"); // There, now it will work
23:57:51 <otherbot> { Script: [Function: ContextifyScript],
23:57:53 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this')")()
23:57:53 <otherbot> runInDebugContext: [Function],
23:57:56 <otherbot> isContext: [Function: isContext] }
23:57:56 <zzo38> "return this" won't help and won't depend on where the function comes from anyways.
23:58:00 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this')")()
23:58:03 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this')")()()
23:58:51 <eviljeff> evilvoid esoterically attempts to prove a point
23:59:11 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this.constructor.constructor(\'return this\')')")()()
23:59:11 <otherbot> [SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list]
23:59:19 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this.constructor.constructor(\"eturn this\")')")()()
23:59:19 <otherbot> [SyntaxError: Unexpected token this]
23:59:21 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this.constructor.constructor(\"return this\")')")()()
23:59:35 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this.constructor.constructor(\"return this\")')")()()()
23:59:43 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return JSON.stringify.constructor('return this.constructor.constructor(\"return process\")')")()()()
23:59:43 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: process is not defined]
00:00:37 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function.caller")()
00:00:50 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function.callee")()
00:01:02 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Object.keys(this)")()
00:01:08 <zzo38> You need "arguments.callee" and not "Function.callee"
00:01:19 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee")()
00:01:26 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee")().toString()
00:01:26 <otherbot> 'function anonymous() {\nreturn arguments.callee\n}'
00:01:32 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee")()()
00:01:38 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee")()().toString()
00:01:38 <otherbot> 'function anonymous() {\nreturn arguments.callee\n}'
00:01:42 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.caller")()
00:01:54 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.constructor")()
00:02:04 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.constructor('return this')")()
00:02:06 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.constructor('return this')")()()
00:02:11 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.constructor('return this')()")()
00:02:46 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return global")
00:02:47 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return global")()
00:02:48 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: global is not defined]
00:03:15 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("\"use strict\";return this;")()
00:03:26 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("\"use strict\";return Function('return this');")()
00:03:29 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("\"use strict\";return Function('return this');")()()
00:03:32 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("\"use strict\";return Function('return this')();")()
00:03:46 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("\"use strict\";return this.constructor('return this');")()()
00:03:46 <otherbot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'constructor' of undefined]
00:03:58 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("this.constructor.constructor('return this');")()()
00:03:58 <otherbot> [TypeError: (intermediate value)(...) is not a function]
00:04:05 <zzo38> Note you can also change the code that runs inside of the sandbox by replacing "(x=>x.constructor.constructor)" with something else.
00:04:07 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("this.constructor.constructor('return this');")()
00:04:25 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("new this.constructor.constructor('return this');")()
00:04:31 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return new this.constructor.constructor('return this');")()
00:04:34 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return new this.constructor.constructor('return this');")()()
00:04:49 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (new this.constructor.constructor('return this'))();")()
00:05:15 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))(""return (this.constructor.constructor('return (this.process.mainModule.constructor._load)')())"")()
00:05:15 <otherbot> [SyntaxError: missing ) after argument list]
00:05:20 <zzo38> (My purpose of doing that was just to show that the return value is the sandbox's Function and not the outside's Function, since the value passed is a primitive.)
00:05:32 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (this.constructor.constructor('return (this.process.mainModule.constructor._load)')())")()
00:05:32 <otherbot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'mainModule' of undefined]
00:05:41 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (this.constructor.constructor('return (this)')())")()
00:06:30 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:06:57 -!- heroux has joined.
00:07:19 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return ({}.constructor.constructor('return (this)')())")()
00:09:26 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Object.keys(arguments)")()
00:09:38 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.caller")()
00:10:04 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.caller")()
00:10:13 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee")()
00:10:19 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.caller")()
00:10:41 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments")()
00:10:43 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments")(1)
00:10:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49769&oldid=46227 * CatIsFluffy * (+72) fixed gap in spec
00:11:24 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.caller")()
00:12:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49770&oldid=49769 * CatIsFluffy * (+62) Examples page link
00:14:19 <evilvoid> what was the last message I sent?
00:17:30 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.caller?arguments.caller:arguments.callee()")()
00:17:30 <otherbot> [RangeError: Maximum call stack size exceeded]
00:17:55 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{new Error()}catch(e){return e}")()
00:18:09 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return e}")()
00:18:10 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: x is not defined]
00:18:25 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return e.constructor.constructor}")()
00:18:32 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return e.constructor.constructor('return this')}")()
00:18:35 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return e.constructor.constructor('return this')}")()()
00:18:39 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return e.constructor.constructor('return this')()}")()
00:18:49 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return e.stack}")()
00:19:03 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return e}")()
00:19:03 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: x is not defined]
00:19:07 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return e.stack}")()
00:19:18 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("try{x.constructor}catch(e){return Object.keys(e)}")()
00:19:31 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Error}")()
00:19:32 <otherbot> [SyntaxError: Unexpected token }]
00:19:35 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Error")()
00:19:35 <otherbot> captureStackTrace: [Function: captureStackTrace],
00:19:51 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Error.constructor")()
00:22:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:23:40 <zzo38> If the code inside of the sandbox is not a arrow function but is a proper function then it may also leak "this"; you can specify the this value yourself (such as undefined) if called by Reflect.apply instead.
00:24:27 <evilvoid> The issue is that when you want to inject some helper functions
00:25:56 <zzo38> Yes, I know. That is why I suggested things such as: sandbox.func1=vm.runInContext("(x=>y=>{ "use strict"; if(typeof y!=="number") throw new TypeError(); else return x(y);)")(my_math_function) for example (before executing any untrusted code in the sandbox)
00:26:23 <zzo38> Actually that is not quite right. Here it is: sandbox.func1=vm.runInContext("(x=>y=>{ "use strict"; if(typeof y!=="number") throw new TypeError(); else return x(y);)",sandbox)(func1);
00:27:04 <zzo38> (Also the quotation matching is wrong of course)
00:27:47 <eviljeff> -eval throw new TypeError(NaN)
00:28:03 <eviljeff> the whole stacktrace doesn't get printed 'cause of updated nodejs
00:28:21 <zzo38> Just to ensure that func1 returns and/or throws only primitives, to make it more safe
00:32:16 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:33:42 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined.
00:34:06 -!- evilmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:34:39 -!- moonythedwarf_ has changed nick to evilmoon.
00:36:14 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function.caller?Function.caller:Function.calee()")()
00:36:14 <otherbot> [TypeError: Function.calee is not a function]
00:36:17 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function.caller?Function.caller:Function.callee()")()
00:36:18 <otherbot> [TypeError: Function.callee is not a function]
00:36:23 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function.caller?Function.caller:argument.callee()")()
00:36:23 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: argument is not defined]
00:36:26 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function.caller?Function.caller:arguments.callee()")()
00:36:26 <otherbot> [RangeError: Maximum call stack size exceeded]
00:36:37 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return Function.caller?Function.caller:arguments.callee(1)")()
00:36:37 <otherbot> [RangeError: Maximum call stack size exceeded]
00:36:46 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments[0]?Function.caller:arguments.callee(1)")()
00:45:55 <HackEgo> [U+03A3 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER SIGMA] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+00B2 SUPERSCRIPT TWO]
00:47:47 <HackEgo> [U+202E RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE]
00:48:09 <HackEgo> U+000F <control> \ UTF-8: 0f UTF-16BE: 000f Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
00:49:20 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("x=function(x){return this;}; return x()")()
00:49:45 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("x=function(x){return this.constructor;}; return x()")()
00:49:50 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("x=function(x){return this;}; return x()")()
00:50:08 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return !function(x){return this;}()")()
00:50:15 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this;})()")()
00:51:14 <evilmoon> -eval bot.sendMsg(chan,"wow did i do it? \u202D")
00:51:20 <evilmoon> -eval bot.sendMsg(chan,"wow did i do it? \u000F")
00:52:09 <hppavilion[1]> (Does anybody treat natural as {0, 1, 2, ...} and whole as {1, 2, ...}? Or is it only ever the other way around?
00:52:47 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (1,eval)('this')")()
00:52:59 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("\use strict"\"; return (1,eval)('this')")()
00:52:59 <otherbot> [SyntaxError: Unexpected token ILLEGAL]
00:53:12 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("\"use strict\"; return (1,eval)('this')")()
00:53:14 -!- boily has joined.
00:53:34 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("\"use strict\"; return (1,eval)('global')")()
00:53:34 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: global is not defined]
00:55:58 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return uneval(this);})()")()
00:55:58 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: uneval is not defined]
00:56:05 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this;})()")()
00:56:15 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("'use strict';return (function(x){return this;})()")()
00:56:56 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this.constructor.constructor;})('return this')()")()
00:57:03 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this.constructor.constructor;})('return this')()()")()
00:57:13 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this.constructor.constructor;})()('return this')")()
00:57:17 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this.constructor.constructor;})()('return this')()")()
00:57:25 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this.constructor.constructor;})()('return global')")()
00:57:30 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this.constructor.constructor;})()('return global')()")()
00:57:30 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: global is not defined]
00:57:38 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(x){return this.constructor.constructor;})()('return this')()")()
00:57:41 <evilmoon> boily: dont mind evilvoid, he's trying to disprove zzo38, hes been at it for a hour now
00:58:35 <evilvoid> All the exploits rely on getting an external object
00:59:48 <evilmoon> -pad HAI 1.2, VISIBLE "HAI BOILY, THIS IS LOLCODE", KTHXBYE
01:01:24 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return aguments.callee.constructor.constructor")()
01:01:24 -!- Akaibu has joined.
01:01:24 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: aguments is not defined]
01:01:29 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.constructor.constructor")()
01:01:37 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.constructor.constructor('return this')")()
01:01:40 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.constructor.constructor('return this')()")()
01:01:48 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee.constructor('return this')()")()
01:02:17 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments.callee(Function('return this'))()")()
01:02:17 <otherbot> [RangeError: Maximum call stack size exceeded]
01:02:49 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return arguments[1]?arguments[0]:arguments.callee(Function('return this'),1)()")()
01:05:33 <boily> evilvoid: I don't think zzo38 is unprovable hth
01:06:02 <evilmoon> evilvoid: ill set it up for a JS sandbox then, you can poke at it more then
01:07:21 <boily> @ask zzo38 hezzo38. are you unprovable?
01:07:47 <zzo38> I think perhaps evilvoid is a bit confused about what this program is supposed to do
01:07:56 <zzo38> It isn't what I meant
01:10:59 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian).
01:15:47 <HackEgo> duck typing//Duck typing means typing on a terminal blindly without an echo.
01:16:04 <boily> had that one last time...
01:16:08 <HackEgo> roujo//Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
01:16:24 <boily> . o O ( where *is* Roujo now? )
01:16:49 <HackEgo> the//the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
01:16:55 <HackEgo> adpoted//"Oh lord, we've adpoted another one." (about Emily) => Marten realizes what kind of webcomic he lives in in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298
01:17:03 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
01:17:09 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯//¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:17:23 <HackEgo> endofunctor//Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
01:17:32 <HackEgo> ping//Ping is a Peking Duck H4XX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout.
01:18:01 <HackEgo> cooperate//"Cooperate" is a common misspelling of "cōöperāte".
01:18:06 <HackEgo> styrofoam//styrofoam is Taneb's only weakness.
01:18:15 <HackEgo> bugbear//A bugbear is a teddy bear that you can explain your bugs to.
01:19:50 <HackEgo> aha//aha would be a helpful acronym, but has a shedding problem.
01:20:05 <HackEgo> @//@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
01:20:13 <HackEgo> relrod//A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force.
01:20:21 <HackEgo> tile shuffling//Tile shuffve games. ly addictie basis of many highling is th
01:20:30 <HackEgo> friendship//friendship wisdom
01:20:49 <HackEgo> doodad//Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors.
01:20:57 <HackEgo> welcome.fi//Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)
01:21:30 <HackEgo> time cube//EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HORU ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wro
01:22:11 <HackEgo> diet//People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
01:22:20 <HackEgo> anana//ananas is the real pineapple.
01:22:37 <HackEgo> weather//lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
01:22:53 <lambdabot> ?? ?@ ?run var$intercalate " \\ " . map (\x -> "(@metar "++x++")") . words $ ?show
01:22:55 <lambdabot> ?? ?@ ?run var$intercalate " \\ " . map (\x -> "(@metar "++x++")") . words $ ?show
01:22:58 <lambdabot> ?? ?@ ?run var$intercalate " \\ " . map (\x -> "(@metar "++x++")") . words $ ?show
01:23:06 <HackEgo> ism//Isms are philosophies, religions or ideologies that have branched off from older ones, such as Leninism or Buddhism. Etymologically "ism" is a backformation from portmanteaus on "schism".
01:23:36 <HackEgo> page//The smallest floating-point number is known as pages. Fungot discovered it.
01:23:43 <HackEgo> kinder surprise//Kinder Surprise is an addictive drug marketed for children so dangerous it's banned at the federal level.
01:24:06 <HackEgo> russell's teapot//Russell's Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
01:24:29 <HackEgo> spice girls//The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:24:37 <HackEgo> utumno//Utumno is Morgoth's first dungeon. It is where he was defeated, and the Silmarils temporarily reclaimed from him.
01:24:44 <HackEgo> ciol//ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming language that has insults as commands.
01:24:58 <HackEgo> york//York used to be known as Amsterdam.
01:25:08 <HackEgo> dinosaur//Dinosaurs are a diverse group of pre-historic chickens with feathers.
01:25:25 <HackEgo> ghost//A ghost is an unintelligent undead, similar to the skeleton but harder to create, because it's lacking the rest of the body.
01:25:35 <HackEgo> itym//itym "i think you mean" hth
01:25:46 <HackEgo> l//L is far too short to be a village in Wales.
01:25:58 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
01:30:46 <HackEgo> Google is where people are working on [NAME WITHHELD] and [REDACTED], without being evil at all.
01:31:10 <HackEgo> Facebook is Taneb's face collection.
01:31:32 <HackEgo> Twitter is Taneb's bird collection (presumably).
01:31:39 <HackEgo> IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
01:32:56 <evilmoon> hackego doesnt know what freenode is
01:34:44 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("returrn (function(){return this})()")()
01:34:44 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: returrn is not defined]
01:34:53 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42))("return (function(){return this})()")()
01:34:55 <fizzie> int-e: I sent a pull request to Gregor. It remains to be seen whether that will actually do anything.
01:35:26 <evilmoon> zzo38: mind re-explaining what your codes _does_ to evilvoid? i dunno if he understands
01:35:46 <evilvoid> It creates a new context that is empty
01:36:01 <boily> `le/rn freenode/The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The Chännel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
01:36:15 <evilvoid> Running a code that returns the constructor.constructor of 42
01:36:22 <evilvoid> -eval new (vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))({}))("return (function(){return this})()")()
01:36:46 <evilvoid> And because 42 is a primitive...
01:36:49 <zzo38> Yes, there you have leaked the "this" because you are not doing what it is supposed to do
01:37:07 <zzo38> It demonstrates that the result of vm.runInContext("(x=>x.constructor.constructor)",vm.createContext(Object.create(null)))(42) is not the same Function object; if you write ==Function then it will be false. Did you even try that?
01:37:11 <evilvoid> The question is how to inject forgein data safely
01:37:30 <zzo38> Because, the value x is a primitive so the conversion to an object occurs inside of the sandbox.
01:37:37 <evilmoon> the answer is: you really cant.
01:37:45 <zzo38> If you replace 42 with {} then it will be the object from outside of the sandbox.
01:37:54 <evilvoid> Math.js cant have a sandbox then
01:39:09 <evilvoid> MathJS dies because of f.constructor for example
01:39:10 <zzo38> You can inject foreign data before executing any untrusted code, if they are primitives rather than objects (functions are also objects).
01:39:22 <zzo38> How is f defined in MathJS anyways?
01:39:41 <fizzie> boily: (In other words, we should have a sesquidecennial celebration late 2017.)
01:39:42 <evilvoid> MathJS does some syntax rewriting
01:39:53 <evilvoid> It wraps what you provided in another function
01:39:57 <zzo38> Also, ensure that the sandbox object is created without a prototype! (This is what Object.create(null) means; it means to create an object with no prototype)
01:40:14 <zzo38> Syntax rewriting won't help.
01:40:36 <evilvoid> It does it just to make it a "more mathematic" syntax
01:40:39 <zzo38> You need to do it properly.
01:40:41 <evilmoon> evilvoid: study it a little more, it actually compiles the code into a node based syntax.
01:41:05 <zzo38> It might do syntax rewriting for that reason, but syntax rewriting will not be sufficient to be safe.
01:41:25 <evilmoon> for example, (x+1)+6 becomes a syntax tree
01:41:25 <evilvoid> you can always eval(String.fromCharCode(stuff))
01:41:54 <zzo38> Yes, and that is why syntax rewriting is not sufficient.
01:42:28 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. that long?!?
01:42:42 <evilvoid> not giving ANYTHING makes features useless
01:42:50 <zzo38> (I also made a TeX sandbox that does not attempt to validate the input or anything like that; security is done by using a custom format file instead. This requires One True TeX and will not work with pdfTeX or LaTeX or other variants.)
01:43:24 <evilvoid> like auth0 uses "web containers" (idk in deep how that works) for evaling user code like to rewrite users
01:43:57 <fizzie> boily: http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4 and look up "Esolang IRC channel".
01:44:01 <zzo38> You can give stuff; just make sure you do it properly! Such as by wrapping functions and that kind of stuff
01:44:09 <zzo38> Use proxies if necessary.
01:44:12 <evilvoid> Since execution is outside ssandbox
01:44:25 * boily is touching history
01:44:59 <zzo38> You could use a separate process and communicate with signals if you want to do timeouts
01:45:08 <boily> fizzie: speaking of history, have you updated the fizziegraphs lately?
01:45:24 <fizzie> boily: Not in a long, long time.
01:45:39 <fizzie> I could try to figure out how to do it, and see if the scripts even still work.
01:46:38 <fizzie> updating target 2, days 2015-09-11 ... 2016-09-24
01:46:53 <fizzie> Heh, almost exactly a year has passed.
01:47:16 -!- otherbot has changed nick to evilrbot.
01:47:16 -!- evilator has joined.
01:47:45 <zzo38> If you write vm.createContext({}) then it is unsafe because it can take values from the outside's Object.prototype, but with Object.create(null) it has no prototype, so that part is undone at least.
01:48:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49771&oldid=49770 * CatIsFluffy * (+4) fixed bug in EBNF allowing for (a or b).c
01:48:16 <fizzie> boily: I should probably readjust the "channel regulars" whitelist some day, to account for changes.
01:49:10 <zzo38> If f is a function brought into the sandbox like how I suggested (wrapping it inside of a function created in the sandbox, by creating a function that returns a function also inside of the sandbox), then it will be the function inside of the sandbox and not outside. Stuff outside of the definition of that function cannot access its local variables.
01:49:34 <evilvoid> Its almost impossible to give values
01:50:00 <evilvoid> SInce you can constructor them to get true Function(tm)
01:50:03 <zzo38> I think someone else has also made up a sandbox out of proxies.
01:50:25 <evilvoid> This is the first safe sandbox I see
01:51:02 <evilmoon> and all that was needed was a single #esoteric memeber and a one liner
01:51:28 <evilvoid> Well, the sandbox/sandcastle guys wasted their time
01:52:03 <zzo38> The way I did it, you can't "constructor them to get true Function(tm)", I think.
01:52:26 <zzo38> (But your tests were doing it wrong; not the way I meant)
01:52:49 -!- Gregor has joined.
01:52:53 <evilvoid> What you did is a empty context, which returns a function scoped to the sandbox
01:53:01 <evilvoid> Well, scoped is not the correct word
01:53:08 <Gregor> Hello I sometimes exist
01:53:15 <evilmoon> fizzie: is that the actual gregor?:P bcause the chmod 000/0000 / -R issue needs fixed
01:53:18 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest77839.
01:53:48 <evilmoon> Yup thats gregor. hi mr person i've never met who wrote HackEgo
01:53:51 <fizzie> I assume it is, though the nickserv-induced nickname change is a little amusing.
01:53:58 -!- Guest77839 has changed nick to Gregor.
01:54:12 <boily> holy fungot! Gregor is alive!
01:54:13 <fungot> boily: and well, ' british accent' could include cockney, yorkshire, scots, or welsh, technically. it was some slang
01:54:18 <Gregor> Suffice it to say I haven't logged in in... a while.
01:54:32 <Gregor> I merged the PR, now I just have to remember where HackEgo is hosted :)
01:54:41 <fizzie> "esolangs.org" is a good alias.
01:54:45 <zzo38> evilvoid: Yes, it is, and that is its working.
01:56:53 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
01:57:31 <zzo38> I almost finished typing the next session of level20.tex but now I must go for a while and later tonight I will finished writing it, and annouce it
01:57:47 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access \: No such file or directory
01:57:50 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
01:58:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: init: not found
01:58:42 <Gregor> I like how everybody tries to break it by assuming they have root access.
01:58:53 <evilvoid> `cat /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits
01:58:54 <HackEgo> cat: /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: No such file or directory
01:59:00 <evilvoid> `cat /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits
01:59:01 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ ulimit -f 10240 \ ulimit -l 0 \ ulimit -u 128 \ exec -- "$@"
01:59:16 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
01:59:23 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `~': No such file or directory
01:59:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot': Is a directory
01:59:34 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
01:59:37 <fizzie> Gregor: There was also something else a little more elaborate related to making a directory called "canary.orig", which even now is causing every `revert to print out "rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory", but it's mostly just a cosmetic issue.
01:59:49 <HackEgo> rm: unrecognized option '--recursive /home/hackbot' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
01:59:57 <HackEgo> Usage: rm [OPTION]... FILE... \ Remove (unlink) the FILE(s). \ \ -f, --force ignore nonexistent files, never prompt \ -i prompt before every removal \ -I prompt once before removing more than three files, or \ when removing recursively. Less intrusive than -i, \
02:00:06 -!- evilmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:00:12 <Gregor> fizzie: Hah, that's amusing. That's because of how hg does things :)
02:01:00 <HackEgo> agpgart \ audio \ audio1 \ audio2 \ audio3 \ audioctl \ console \ core \ dsp \ dsp1 \ dsp2 \ dsp3 \ fd \ full \ kmem \ loop0 \ loop1 \ loop2 \ loop3 \ loop4 \ loop5 \ loop6 \ loop7 \ mem \ midi0 \ midi00 \ midi01 \ midi02 \ midi03 \ midi1 \ midi2 \ midi3 \ mixer \ mixer1 \ mixer2 \ mixer3 \ mpu401data \ mpu401stat \ null \ port \ ptmx \ pts \ ram \
02:01:03 <fizzie> Gregor: And someone ran a "rm everything" that wasn't caught by the canary, because in the 30 seconds it only managed to remove /hackenv/bin/ and few other things, but not the canary, which was then considered a valid commit. Though that was easy enough to revert.
02:01:15 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/port: Permission denied
02:01:20 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/*: No such file or directory
02:01:27 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/ram: Permission denied
02:01:32 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/fs: No such file or directory
02:01:33 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/fd: Is a directory
02:01:39 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8
02:01:50 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/fd/*: No such file or directory
02:02:01 <evilvoid> `cat /dev/fd/{0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8}
02:02:02 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/fd/{0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8}: No such file or directory
02:02:26 <Gregor> fizzie: Yeah, not much that can be done about that.
02:02:28 <HackEgo> ...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
02:02:48 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/loop0: Permission denied
02:03:12 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ~: No such file or directory
02:03:28 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg': Is a directory
02:03:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /home/hackbot/hackbot.hf: No such file or directory
02:03:42 <evilvoid> `ls /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds
02:03:44 <fizzie> boily: https://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/ is up to date.
02:03:47 <evilvoid> `ls /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib
02:03:48 <HackEgo> fetch \ limits \ revert \ sandbox
02:03:54 <evilvoid> `ls /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox
02:03:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox
02:03:58 <evilvoid> `ls /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits
02:03:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits
02:04:05 <evilvoid> `echo hi > /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits
02:04:06 <HackEgo> hi > /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits
02:04:19 <evilvoid> `rm /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits
02:04:20 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits': Read-only file system
02:04:37 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `000 -R /' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
02:04:47 <HackEgo> chmod: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
02:04:52 <HackEgo> Usage: chmod [OPTION]... MODE[,MODE]... FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... OCTAL-MODE FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... --reference=RFILE FILE... \ Change the mode of each FILE to MODE. \ \ -c, --changes like verbose but report only when a change is made \ --no-preserve-root do not treat `/' specially (the default) \ --pr
02:05:02 <fizzie> boily: Hm. The javascripty stuff seems to have borked. I'll try to give it a fix.
02:05:13 <HackEgo> chmod: unrecognized option '--help | more' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
02:05:31 <evilvoid> `chmod --no-preserve-root --recursive /
02:05:32 <HackEgo> chmod: unrecognized option '--no-preserve-root --recursive /' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
02:05:37 <evilvoid> `chmod --no-preserve-root --recursive 0000 /
02:05:38 <HackEgo> chmod: unrecognized option '--no-preserve-root --recursive 0000 /' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
02:05:47 <fizzie> boily: (Oh, it's just a 'http' link to a CDN'd jquery.)
02:06:02 <HackEgo> chmod: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
02:06:14 <zzo38> To do shell command you need `` or ``` at front with a space after the `` or ```
02:06:24 <zzo38> Otherwise it is treat as one argument including spaces
02:06:32 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/bin': Read-only file system \ chmod: changing permissions of `/bin/gzip': Read-only file system \ chmod: changing permissions of `/bin/ln': Read-only file system \ chmod: changing permissions of `/bin/tar': Read-only file system \ chmod: changing permissions of `/bin/vdir': Read-only file system \ chmod: changing pe
02:06:41 <evilvoid> `` chmod --no-preserve-root --recursive 0000 /
02:07:08 <boily> fizzie: Blocage du chargement du contenu mixte actif (mixed active content) « http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.9.0/jquery.min.js »
02:07:13 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4/features': Operation not permitted \
02:07:29 <evilvoid> `` chmod --no-preserve-root --recursive 0000 /home
02:07:30 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/home': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/home/hackbot': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permission
02:07:39 <evilvoid> `` chmod --no-preserve-root --recursive 0000 / &
02:07:46 <evilvoid> `` chmod --no-preserve-root --recursive 0000 / & echo hi
02:07:53 <fizzie> boily: Should be okay now.
02:08:10 <HackEgo> chmod: changing permissions of `/': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4': Operation not permitted \ chmod: changing permissions of `/sys/fs/ext4/features': Operation not permitted \
02:08:32 <HackEgo> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type host
02:08:44 <zzo38> (The difference between `` and ``` is the locale setting.)
02:09:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logout: not found
02:09:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: exit: not found
02:09:43 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ kmod \ less \
02:10:17 <HackEgo> bzegrep \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2recover \ bzmore \ egrep \ fgrep \ grep \ more \ readlink \ uncompress \ zegrep \ zfgrep \ zgrep \ zmore
02:10:30 <HackEgo> danddreclist 83: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
02:10:38 <zzo38> (I am earlier than I expected.)
02:11:39 <evilvoid> Well, OOM is something I guess. Like a DoS
02:12:01 <HackEgo> agpgart \ audio \ audio1 \ audio2 \ audio3 \ audioctl \ console \ core \ dsp \ dsp1 \ dsp2 \ dsp3 \ fd \ full \ kmem \ loop0 \ loop1 \ loop2 \ loop3 \ loop4 \ loop5 \ loop6 \ loop7 \ mem \ midi0 \ midi00 \ midi01 \ midi02 \ midi03 \ midi1 \ midi2 \ midi3 \ mixer \ mixer1 \ mixer2 \ mixer3 \ mpu401data \ mpu401stat \ null \ port \ ptmx \ pts \ ram \
02:12:23 <HackEgo> bash: cat /dev/*: No such file or directory
02:12:35 <HackEgo> bash: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ bash: no job control in this shell \ bash-4.2$
02:12:58 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sudo: command not found
02:13:10 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \
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02:13:57 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: hw: command not found
02:14:22 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
02:14:47 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: hw: command not found
02:14:51 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: hw: command not found
02:14:57 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
02:15:02 <HackEgo> I have nothing to tell you.
02:15:05 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
02:15:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooooodl \ if [ -z "$1" ];then exec echo "I have nothing to tell you.";fi;f="tmflry/$(echo "$1" | lowercase)";if [ -h "$f" ];then exec tomfoolery `readlink "$f" | sed 's/^tmflry\///'`;fi;if [ -x "$f" ];then exec bash "$f";fi;if [ -r "$f" ];then exec cat "$f";fi;echo "I must confess, I kn
02:16:02 <fizzie> boily: Incidentally, there's a bit of timezone mishap I should try to retroactively correct, which means all my timestamps were off by two hours for a bit over two months in the start of 2015. You can see this by looking at the "presence of time" bitmaps for someone regular, like boily; there's a temporary shift around that time.
02:17:58 <boily> yeah, I think I'm the regularest regular for the time of day I'm active here...
02:18:26 <boily> oerjan is diagonally active.
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03:03:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TehFlaminTaco * New user account
03:28:12 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to have accidentally started constructing a parser
03:29:01 <hppavilion[1]> It can currently detect naturals expressed as S*0, integers expressed as -?nat, and can add two naturals together. Whoops.
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04:31:37 <\oren\> ISRO are going to launch the SCATSAT soon
04:31:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlhLews6CAI
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05:45:23 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It took me a few seconds to realize that guy was speaking English
05:49:30 <shachaf> Cale: What do you think of the notation d^2y/dx^2?
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06:12:59 <tuttobene> Among they who acknowledge the shortcommings of the Obj Oriented paradigm, which other paradigm is seen as "the new wave", so to speak?
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06:23:00 <hppavilion[1]> Proper Cthuvian features a sound called the "semivoiced labioglottal fricative"
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06:51:40 <Cale> shachaf: I don't really use Leibniz notation all that much
06:52:19 <shachaf> Cale: If you work it out I think it works out to make sense.
06:52:31 <Cale> It does, vaguely at least.
06:52:32 <shachaf> And in particular d(dy) isn't 0
06:53:01 <shachaf> If y = f(x), d(dy) = f''(x) dx dx
06:55:49 <shachaf> d(dy/dx) = (dx d(dy) - dy d(dx))/(dx^2)
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07:31:07 <zzo38> shachaf: I have come up with such things too
07:31:39 <izalove> does anyone know how to initialize this unordered_map? https://arin.ga/SFxrfv/raw
07:31:42 <shachaf> zzo38: But d(dx)/dx^2 = 0, right?
07:31:51 <izalove> almost the same code works fine with vector https://arin.ga/NZCIsJ/raw
07:32:27 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know; I haven't tried to figure out
07:33:24 <zzo38> But, second derivative can be d(dy/dx)/dx even though the notation d^2y/dx^2 is used but that notation is wrong.
07:33:38 <shachaf> I don't think that notation is wrong.
07:33:54 <shachaf> I used to think it was odd and arbitrary but now I'm thinking it's actually good.
07:34:14 <shachaf> Why do you say it's wrong?
07:35:55 <zzo38> Because d^2y/dx^2 doesn't equal d(dy/dx)/dx, and also I saw in another book (by Penrose) that it is wrong!
07:36:17 <shachaf> And I think it does equal d(dy/dx)/dx
07:37:13 <shachaf> d(dy/dx)/dx = (dx d(dy) - dy d(dx))/(dx^3)
07:37:35 <shachaf> = d(dy)/dx^2 - dy/dx d(dx)/dx^2
07:37:52 <shachaf> And I think d(dx)/dx^2 = 0
07:38:13 <shachaf> I can say that it's because the second derivative of x with respect to x is 0, but that's circular. :-)
07:44:22 <oerjan> but then (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2 = (d^2y/dy^2) / (d^2y/dx^2) = 0 whenever d^2y/dx^2 /= 0 checkmate atheists
07:45:29 <oerjan> the last one is in the wrong order
07:45:55 <oerjan> so it's actually infinity hth
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07:51:20 <shachaf> are you saying (dy/dx)^2 = (dy^2/dx^2) = (1/dx^2)/(1/dy^2) = (d^2y/dx^2)/(d^2y/dy^2) = (d^2y/dx^2)/0
07:51:58 <shachaf> good counterexample oerjan++ tdh
07:52:52 <shachaf> So maybe d(dx)/dx^2 isn't 0?
07:54:19 <shachaf> Really, it couldn't be 0, that would make this whole thing break.
07:54:42 <oerjan> well d^2x/dx^2 is supposedly 0.
07:55:23 <shachaf> If it's the second derivative it would have to be.
07:55:46 <shachaf> Let's see. One way to make this whole thing work is to parameterize everything in terms of t, right?
07:56:48 <shachaf> Where D_t(e) means what people usually mean by de/dt
07:57:35 <shachaf> Certainly D_t(y)/D_t(x) = D_x(y), right?
07:58:35 <shachaf> So the second derivative is D_t(D_t(y)/D_t(x))/D_t(x)
07:58:39 <oerjan> i think the trouble may be simply that second derivatives in this notation don't behave sensibly wrt changes of variables.
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07:58:49 <shachaf> Well, it's really just what I wrote earlier except with a more complicated symbol for d.
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07:59:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Which book does Penrose pen his objection in?
07:59:49 <oerjan> or put differently, dy^2/dx^2, the thing you need to change variables for second derivatives, is not (dy/dx)^2 where dy/dx is the thing you need for first derivatives.
07:59:50 <shachaf> oerjan: that would be scow though
08:00:29 <shachaf> if (dy/dx) (dy/dx) isn't (dy dy)/(dx dx) then this notation is broken
08:01:23 <oerjan> basically because first and second derivatives have no simply scaling correspondence.
08:01:56 <shachaf> but parameterize it in terms of t. certainly (dy/dt)/(dx/dt) * (dy/dt)/(dx/dt) = ((dy/dt)(dy/dt))/((dx/dt)(dx/dt))
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08:03:36 <oerjan> well sure, everything works nice as long as you're only dealing with first derivatives.
08:04:03 <shachaf> so you're not objective to (dy/dx)^2 = (dy^2/dx^2)
08:04:41 <oerjan> i'm objecting that there are two different senses of dy^2/dx^2 which don't scale in the same way.
08:05:29 <shachaf> well, the real problem here isn't with squaring dy or any of that, it's with the connection to d^2y
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08:06:02 <oerjan> well one of the senses is _defined_ by that connection, of course.
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08:07:07 <shachaf> if this notation works, then by definition if y = f(x) then d^2y/dx^2 = f''(x)
08:07:45 <shachaf> but if f(x) = x, that means d^2y = 0
08:08:03 <zzo38> shachaf: Penrose wrote it in a footnote in Road to Reality (not a part of the main text).
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08:10:24 <shachaf> ybden is sure rejoining a lot
08:10:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, I have a copy of that book, I think. Do you remember which footnote?
08:12:28 <zzo38> No I do not remember
08:13:23 <shachaf> Actually it doesn't seem problematic.
08:13:40 <shachaf> If dy = 0, that means dy is constant.
08:14:01 <shachaf> So if d(dy) = 0, that means dy is constant.
08:14:49 <zzo38> (They even say so in the book.)
08:14:59 <shachaf> I know, I'm looking at the book.
08:19:14 <shachaf> zzo38: So what's d(dy/dx)?
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08:20:05 <shachaf> I guess it's what I said above: (dx d(dy) - dy d(dx))/dx^2
08:21:01 <shachaf> = d(dy)/dx - dy/dx d(dx)/dx
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08:24:26 <shachaf> So d(dy/dx)/dx = d(dy)/dx^2 - dy/dx d(dx)/dx^2
08:24:37 <shachaf> So what's that second part? Not 0?
08:26:25 <oerjan> put in a different way, in d^2 / dx^2 the two dx'es come from different scopes, and if there's a dy/dx have to be the same in the two scopes.
08:26:25 <shachaf> zzo38: That's certainly in contradiction with what the author says about differential forms etc.
08:27:24 <zzo38> I know, but apparently a 1-form or whatever is a special case or something like that?
08:27:25 <shachaf> oerjan: This is probably related to how if you have f : U^n -> U^m, D^2f : U^n -> (U^n -o (U^n -o U^m))?
08:27:42 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not in a state of mind to even parse that at the moment.
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08:27:57 <shachaf> oerjan: The second derivative at a point is a bilinear map.
08:28:18 <oerjan> i'm also not in a state of mind to understand the concept hth
08:28:38 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, if f : R^n -> R^m, then Df : R^n -> (R^n -o R^m)
08:28:45 <oerjan> or body. this neck is killing me.
08:29:06 <shachaf> At each point it gives you a linear approximation of f around that point.
08:29:22 <oerjan> shachaf: please consider me just a rubber duck at this point hth
08:29:31 <HackEgo> Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
08:29:55 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#immoritus#rubber duck#
08:29:57 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord rubber duck oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
08:51:43 <HackEgo> icbm/icbm//ICBM/ICBMs are Crumbling Building Missiles. The I is currently classified.
08:52:16 <HackEgo> <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <shachaf> sedlast s/unknown/classified/ \ <boily> learn ICBM/ICBMs are Crumbling Building Missiles. The I is currently unknown.
08:52:52 <oerjan> did boily really mean to do that
08:53:15 <oerjan> `` find -name '*icbm*' wisdom
08:53:16 <HackEgo> find: paths must precede expression: wisdom \ Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [-Olevel] [-D help|tree|search|stat|rates|opt|exec] [path...] [expression]
08:53:28 <oerjan> `` find wisdom -name '*icbm*'
08:53:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/icbm \ wisdom/icbm/icbm
08:54:30 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; mv icbm icbm'; mv icbm'/* .; rmdir icbm'
08:54:30 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
08:54:44 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; mv icbm icbm_; mv icbm_/* .; rmdir icbm_
08:54:53 <HackEgo> ICBM/ICBMs are Crumbling Building Missiles. The I is currently classified.
08:55:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/icbm//ICBMs are Crumbling Building Missiles. The I is currently classified.
08:56:42 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; ls -d */
08:56:44 <HackEgo> ¯\_(ツ)_/ \ le/ \ ¯\(°_o)/ \ ¯\(°_o)/
09:00:20 <HackEgo> The result was a short burst of the most hideous cacophony in G minor.
09:00:34 <oerjan> i'm not sure what int-e intended here.
09:01:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
09:02:15 <oerjan> @tell int-e please explain why `? music does not contain its own keyword twh
09:02:54 <oerjan> @tell int-e oh, never mind.
09:03:07 <oerjan> and i even read that book.
09:05:05 -!- carado has joined.
09:06:17 <HackEgo> the most hideous cacophony in g minor//The Most Hideous Cacophony in G Minor (Op. -3) is a musical work often incorrectly attributed to Bach and/or Taneb
09:07:03 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/*cacophony\ in*
09:07:10 <HackEgo> the most hideous cacophony in g minor//The Most Hideous Cacophony in G Minor (Op. -3) is a musical work often incorrectly attributed to Bach and/or Taneb.
09:07:37 <oerjan> of course, it's really Bach.
09:08:45 <zzo38> Why won't anyone to help me making Node.js addons?
09:09:29 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/Op./BWV/' wisdom/*cacophony\ in*
09:09:37 <HackEgo> the most hideous cacophony in g minor//The Most Hideous Cacophony in G Minor (BWV -3) is a musical work often incorrectly attributed to Bach and/or Taneb.
09:10:16 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
09:18:23 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
09:19:02 <HackEgo> 2016-07-10 <fizzie> ` bash ./configure
09:19:26 <HackEgo> candide: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
09:19:32 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ # compile c from stdin \ # candide, kinda \ \ readinput () { \ while read -r -e || { printf %s "$REPLY"; false; } ; do \ printf '%s\n' "$REPLY" \ done \ } \ \ c=$(readinput) \ if ! [[ $c ]] || ! out=$(mktemp); then \ echo Error >&2 \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ # if you don't write 'main' it assumes that you're writing a full pr
09:20:27 <HackEgo> brainfuck \ c \ chef \ haskell \ intercal \ java \ pascal \ perl \ perl6 \ php \ python \ shakespeare
09:20:46 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-05-14 <xfix> ` echo $\'say\\tQ[@A`DO world!]~|<HeLhg>\' > hw/perl6 \ 2016-05-14 <Taneb> ` echo Couldn\\\'t match type \\`IO \\(\\)\\\' with \\`[Char]\\\' > hw/haskell \ 2016-05-14 <xfix> ` echo Just another Perl hacker, > hw/perl \ 2016-05-14 <xfix> ` echo Just
09:21:40 <zzo38> How can you convert a C++ header file into a C header file with all of the correct mangled names?
09:22:11 <shachaf> Why do you want to do that?
09:22:13 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 1.0 0.1 1012 272 ? S 10:18 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 10:18 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 10:18 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ?
09:22:23 <shachaf> oerjan: i thought you retired
09:22:39 <zzo38> So that you can call a C++ code from a C code
09:22:46 <oerjan> OF COURSE I'M RETIRED. I'M FINE. WHERE ARE MY GOLF CLUBS...
09:22:48 <shachaf> zzo38: Why not export unmangled names?
09:23:21 -!- tuttobene has quit.
09:24:25 <zzo38> Because the existing program does not do that.
09:25:20 <shachaf> I would prefer to write a C++ wrapper that exports C functions, and compile it with a C++ compiler.
09:26:12 <zzo38> I don't want to; I want to write the code in C which can call exported C++ functions (including overloaded and classes and all of that stuff) from a C code.
09:26:36 -!- ybden has joined.
09:27:04 <fizzie> oerjan: I think I was supposed to move that thing into bin, but then didn't actually finish making it accept input from the command line, or something.
09:27:27 <oerjan> . o O ( this channel has too many evil* people )
09:27:59 <zzo38> Specifically I want to be able to use the Node.js headers including v8 and nan, directly from a C code.
09:28:07 <fizzie> Also, the web repository browser seems to have broken down. :/
09:28:55 <zzo38> Also, the C++ codes are clang but I want to write the C code with GCC.
09:29:04 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, because I just fixed it.
09:30:08 <shachaf> Is smashing the opposite of shocking?
09:30:43 <fizzie> The permissions patch I made just enforces u+rwx on the /hackenv directory, which is enough to keep the bot from breaking, but the repo-browser runs as a different user and therefore needs a+x on /hackenv to reach /hackenv/.hg to read the repo.
09:30:49 <zzo38> Also it can be use even if different compilers have different name mangling schemes.
09:31:20 <oerjan> oh someone managed to break it?
09:31:22 <shachaf> zzo38: If different compilers have different name mangling schemes, then your only hope is to use a C++ compiler, isn't it?
09:31:44 <shachaf> I was hoping that `lowg would log all the changes to wisdom
09:33:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, turns out if you set the permissions of /hackenv (which is read-write in the sandbox) to 0, it goes (well, used to go) to a mode where nothing works because the hg commands can't access the .hg subdirectory, requiring manual intervention.
09:33:58 <oerjan> fizzie: doesn't `revert still work?
09:34:07 <zzo38> shachaf: If it is converted into a C header file instead of C++ then it won't matter after it has been converted, because it uses the name-mangling scheme of the converter.
09:35:01 <fizzie> oerjan: No -- it does "work" in the sense that it attempts to execute the commands (since that happens outside the sandbox), but the 'hg revert' it uses just fails.
09:35:34 <oerjan> fizzie: i somehow didn't think the internal HackEgo commands accessed .hg through /hackenv ...
09:35:57 <oerjan> iirc .hg wasn't even always inside it...
09:36:07 <oerjan> maybe i remember wrong.
09:36:16 <fizzie> It's always been a subdirectory the times I've been playing with it.
09:37:12 <fizzie> And yeah, from the internal command's perspective it's not /hackenv, it's /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env, but a chmod on /hackenv in the sandbox translates directly to a chmod on that, since it's mounted read-write.
09:40:06 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> moon__: I can see it's a directory, but I wonder why it's not in the repo <-- i'm guessing it's a `revert bug again.
09:44:55 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
09:45:59 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse zgrep zgrep zgrep rdococ zgrep zgrep zgrep hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] ais523 hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] izabera hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] oren \ oren \ zgrep zgrep zgrep zgrep zgrep oerjan oerjan oerjan zgrep zgr
09:45:59 <shachaf> Oh, hg doesn't track directories.
09:46:23 <HackEgo> changeset: 9084:132542b8bf63 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Mon Sep 26 08:22:13 2016 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> rm ps \ \ changeset: 9083:00300a2789b3 \ user: HackBot \ date: Mon Sep 26 08:19:40 2016 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> rm candide \ \ changeset: 9082:c09a4c1bf558 \ user: HackBot \
09:46:35 <shachaf> I'm almost disappointed that the tmp/ trick works.
09:46:59 <shachaf> Otherwise I would've encoded temporary state in directory tree.
09:48:08 <lambdabot> *** "esoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
09:48:08 <lambdabot> adj 1: confined to and understandable by only an enlightened
09:48:08 <lambdabot> inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical
09:48:37 <shachaf> A RIC is a Reuters Instrument Code, used to identify financial instruments.
09:49:11 <oerjan> moon_ seemed a bit trigger happy with the `reverts
09:49:12 <lambdabot> *** "exoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
09:49:12 <lambdabot> adj 1: suitable for the general public; "writings of an exoteric
09:49:21 <shachaf> I've never heard that word before.
09:50:51 <shachaf> oerjan: So when you parameterize everything by dt, dx^2 certainly has some sort of meaning.
09:50:57 <shachaf> But it's kind of a boring one, I guess?
09:52:08 <HackEgo> Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord rubber duck oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
09:52:27 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#rubber duck#quack doctor#
09:52:30 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack doctor oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
09:52:55 <oerjan> every day, in every way, my wisdom entry keeps getting better and better
09:54:13 <oerjan> i was just quoting another quack doctor hth
09:54:32 <oerjan> which i learned about the other day from the iwc forum.
09:55:09 <shachaf> If even you only learned about it the other day, how can you expect me to know it?
09:55:39 <shachaf> Say y = x^2. y = t^2, x = t. dy = 2x dx, which are both equal to 2t
09:56:29 <shachaf> Where was I going with this?
09:57:07 <shachaf> Maybe choosing x = t makes this too boring.
09:58:22 <shachaf> Let's say y and x are functions.
09:58:42 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Sep 26 01:58:40 2016
09:59:21 <shachaf> I'm pretty incoherent right now.
09:59:45 <shachaf> But y(t) = ... and x(t) = ...
09:59:55 <shachaf> Surely Dy/Dx is a perfectly reasonable function.
10:00:45 <shachaf> D(Dy/Dx) = (Dx D(Dy) - Dy D(Dx))/(Dx)^2, innit?
10:01:16 <shachaf> This is exacty the same as before except I'm writing a capital D. Boring.
10:01:45 <HackEgo> Boring means of little interest.
10:01:59 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-04-18 <oerjan> learn Boring means of little interest.
10:02:43 <shachaf> D(Dy/Dx) = D(Dy)/Dx - Dy D(Dx)/Dx^2
10:03:40 <oerjan> there should be an entry for `? brilliant that is all over the top and yet complete crap.
10:03:46 <oerjan> i'm just not sure how to do it.
10:04:50 <shachaf> d both sides: d(dy) = d(u dx)
10:05:23 <shachaf> So d(dy) = u d(dx) + du dx
10:06:11 <shachaf> d(dy)/dx^2 = u d(dx)/dx + du/dx
10:06:40 <shachaf> That accomplished nothing. But I guess it's easier than explicitly doing the quotient thing.
10:06:48 <oerjan> `` le/rn brilliant/"`echo 'BRILLIANT is like the BEST word in the universe and it will change your life FOREVER!' | rainwords | zalgo`"
10:06:57 <HackEgo> ̼̗1̏̽3̰̞B̛͂Ŗ̹Ï͞L̓̀Ḽ̊I̠̋Aͧ͂N̷ͫT̋̓ ̸͖͉̟0̧ͭ4ͣ͆i͔̽s̷̾ ̵̝̾̓0̟͠7̰̅l̢̀i̫͗k͞͏e͋͗ ͉̖̐̕0̽͢8̝็t̐ͮh͕̿e͙̾ ̸̙͇̇0็̍9̣ͨB̷̨E̮̮S̟̈́T̵̉ ͇̓̋̄0̧̜2̨̇w̰ͅo̤̕ŕ̗d̑ͩ ̞̱̊ͧ0̴̨6̇̉i͙̊ñ̉ ̧̂ͯ̒1͍ͨ3͇̽ẗ̃ẖ̲e̖ͧ ̰͇̤͂0̴̥4̷̭ṷͦn̘͞i͒ͮ
10:07:40 <shachaf> I've been trying to figure out the pun in `? boring
10:07:50 <shachaf> I can see a few candidates but none of them seem to work.
10:08:06 <oerjan> shachaf: there's no pun. it is amusingly self-referential hth
10:08:26 <shachaf> d(dy)/dx^2 = u d(dx)/dx^2 + du/dx
10:09:14 <oerjan> `` le/rn brilliant/"`echo 'BRILLIANT is like the BEST word in the universe and it will change your life FOREVER!' | zalgo | rainwords`"
10:09:25 <HackEgo> B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h
10:10:10 <shachaf> `learn A rich person is a person of exciting means, which produce significant interest.
10:10:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'rich': A rich person is a person of exciting means, which produce significant interest.
10:10:27 <shachaf> `learn A poor person is a person of boring means, which produce little interest.
10:10:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'poor': A poor person is a person of boring means, which produce little interest.
10:11:20 <shachaf> That's the best I can doerjan.
10:11:21 <oerjan> `zalgo Horrible things.
10:11:22 <HackEgo> H̼̆ȭrͮͅr̜ͯi͖͗b̲̿l̴͂ẽ̵ ̶̹t̙͛ḩ͚i͂ͥn͌̋g̫̩s̒̈.̜͘
10:11:50 <shachaf> they tie themselves in horrible knots
10:12:00 <shachaf> they come in stripes or polka dots
10:12:20 <oerjan> don't try do wussel out of this
10:12:39 <shachaf> oerjan: do you know that "weasel out" is a phrase
10:12:47 <myname> holy crap is the internet slow in this hospital
10:12:47 <shachaf> you could have alluded to that one instead
10:13:18 <oerjan> shachaf: of course i do.
10:13:27 <oerjan> myname: are you injured
10:13:52 <myname> not in the traditional sense, no
10:15:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i thought that was what i did, except i couldn't remember the english spelling.
10:16:18 <shachaf> Ah, I thought it was meant to be "wuss out"
10:16:43 <shachaf> Where "weasel out" would be more appropriate, because woozles are related to weasels.
10:18:27 <shachaf> OK, let's take a case like x=t^2, y=t^3
10:18:47 <shachaf> I said that d(dy)/dx^2 = dy/dx d(dx)/dx^2 + d(dy/dx)/dx
10:19:05 <shachaf> So d(dy/dx)/dx = d(dy)/dx^2 -dy/dx d(dx)/dx^2
10:19:12 <shachaf> d(dy/dx)/dx = d(dy)/dx^2 - dy/dx d(dx)/dx^2
10:21:29 <shachaf> So d(dy/dx)/dx = d(3/2 t)/(2t) = (3/2)/(2t) = 3/(4t)
10:23:00 <shachaf> So we have 6t/(4t^2) - 3/2 t 2/(4t^2)
10:24:28 <shachaf> So that extra dy/dx d(dx)/dx^2 adjustment did exactly the wrong thing.
10:25:37 <shachaf> But note that d(dy)/dx^2 = 6t/(4t^2) = 3/2t *is* the right derivative.
10:26:28 <shachaf> oerjan: zzo38 said it was nonsense earlier!
10:26:39 <shachaf> But here we go, d^y/dx^2 actually does work.
10:26:51 <shachaf> It's just that my claim about the d^2x/dx^2 was wrong
10:27:06 <oerjan> skeptiquack about d^y/dx^2 hth
10:27:20 <shachaf> Does it not work in this case?
10:28:15 <shachaf> skeptiquacks are exactly what i need tdh
10:31:44 <zzo38> If d^2y/dx^2 is OK then maybe did I miss some simplification steps in my calculation? (I just got an answer that I was able to prove was equal to Penrose's answer.)
10:32:36 <zzo38> I forget now, but I remembered when I simplified both answers I got the same thing in each case, showing them to be equal.
10:32:46 <oerjan> when calculating second derivatives, you have to let the dx's from calculating the first derivatives go to 0 _first_, because there's no continuity property that allows you to defer it. this means that you _cannot_ treat dx^2 as having the same dx variable twice... they come from different scopes, as i said.
10:32:49 <shachaf> Maybe I should ask: Answer to what?
10:33:26 <shachaf> oerjan: i know you said that but i didn't understand it so i decided to ignore it hth
10:34:06 <shachaf> Now I think I see what you mean, but I'm not sure it's true.
10:34:23 <shachaf> this isn't taking a limit, yo
10:34:43 <shachaf> dy/dx is just an expression in x
10:35:13 <shachaf> maybe, maybe it is true, though
10:35:42 <oerjan> also, my comment about rubber duck means that i'm not reading half of what you write hth
10:35:53 <shachaf> half of what i write is wrong
10:35:58 <shachaf> i hope that's the half you're not reading twh
10:37:53 <oerjan> incidentally, that's equivalent to saying "a circle is always normal to its radius"
10:38:33 <shachaf> it's much nicer than dy/dx = -x/sqrt(1-x^2) or whatever you might write
10:39:13 <shachaf> OK, let's parameterize it.
10:40:05 <shachaf> dx = -sin t dt, dy = cos t dt
10:40:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
10:41:25 <oerjan> incidentally, the half i'm not reading includes most of the formulas hth
10:43:44 <shachaf> d(dy)/dx^2 = -y/(y^2) = -1/y
10:45:27 <oerjan> quack but i dislike confusing functions and expressions.
10:46:45 <oerjan> the d(dy) = -y part is just sin'' = -sin and cos'' = -cos
10:47:03 <shachaf> since x and y are expressions in t
10:48:05 <oerjan> the d operator applied to an expression.
10:48:36 <shachaf> yes, d means "derivative with respect to t"
10:48:42 <shachaf> as specified a few pages ago
10:49:17 <shachaf> look, is -1/y the right second derivative?
10:49:30 <shachaf> oh, i guess i could differentiate and see
10:50:11 <shachaf> for a half circle the usual way it would be the derivative of -x/sqrt(1-x^2)
10:51:29 <shachaf> = (y d(-x)/dx - (-x) dy/dx)/y^2
10:52:45 <shachaf> so that's (-x^2/y - y)/y^2
10:54:05 <shachaf> the second derivative of sqrt(1-x^2) is -1/(sqrt(1-x^2)^3)
10:54:35 <shachaf> which is neither of the other two answers i got
10:54:49 <shachaf> probably because i haven't done this in years and also it's 3 in the morning
10:55:23 <shachaf> ok, well, the hand derivative i just did wrong
10:55:48 <shachaf> but -1/y isn't right, it's -1/y^3
10:57:03 <shachaf> d(dy)/(dx^2) = -y/(y^2) = -1/y
10:57:38 <HackEgo> the most obnoxious of evil people, likes to use chmod 000 / -R
10:57:57 <oerjan> `slwd evilipse//s//evilipse,/
10:57:59 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression
10:58:08 <oerjan> `slwd evilipse//s/^/evilipse,/
10:58:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/evilipse//evilipse, the most obnoxious of evil people, likes to use chmod 000 / -R
10:59:52 <shachaf> d(-x/y) = (y d(-x) - (-x) dy)/y^2
11:01:26 <shachaf> but why does that not work in the other problem, and d^2y/dx^2 not work in this problem?
11:02:09 <shachaf> maybe the whole premise is broken?
11:02:09 <zzo38> I thought of variant of Archenemy game of Magic: the Gathering where the players must bid on being the solo player. Do you have any ideas about this too? Do you like this? (I also thought of some ideas about it)
11:06:23 <zzo38> I thought you can bid how many points you will earn, which will also control cards you must ante at first and how many times that when you would set a scheme in motion instead you must look at the top card of your scheme deck and decide to either leave it there or move it to the bottom.
11:08:06 <zzo38> Doubling and redoubling like in bridge might also be done.
11:12:10 <oerjan> <ais523> oh wow, it seems it deleted advice, bin, and ibin <-- *sigh*, all the symbolic links will have broken in there, won't they.
11:12:34 <int-e> what was advice/ for anyway?
11:13:12 <oerjan> int-e: i dunno. shachaf said directories don't get committed in hg at all btw
11:13:57 * oerjan has no idea what syntax to use.
11:13:57 <int-e> Ah, that may be true.
11:14:06 <oerjan> maybe it's always been empty.
11:14:16 <int-e> `` grep -rl advice bin
11:14:34 <int-e> hopefully useless too
11:22:16 <fizzie> Based on a log-grep, I reckon it's always been empty.
11:22:40 <fizzie> It was proposed as a wisdom-style thing, but a set instead of a map.
11:23:40 <HackEgo> #esoteric-blah? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:24:06 <oerjan> `learn #esoteric-blah blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah!
11:24:09 <HackEgo> Learned '#esoteric-blah': #esoteric-blah blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah!
11:28:33 -!- kline_ has changed nick to kline.
11:32:14 -!- Robdgreat has quit (Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number).
11:35:19 -!- boily has joined.
11:40:44 <HackEgo> sugar//Sugar, spice, and everything nice. These were the ingredients chosen to create the perfect little girl. But Professor Utonium accidentally added an extra ingredient to the concoction: Chemical X! Thus the Powerpuff Girls were born! Using their ultra super powers, Blossom, Bubbles, and Buttercup have dedicated their lives to fighting crime an
11:41:21 <zzo38> Would a Magic: the Gathering card that says "you may pay {0}. When you do," make any sense? (Note that it doesn't say "if you do"; it says "when you do")
11:43:31 <boily> hezzo38. It would probably never exist, but it would make sense and be within the usual ruleset.
11:43:48 <boily> (Or if it exists, it does as a modernified rewording of a very old card.)
11:45:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Compare to the wording for Conspire, I think?
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12:10:59 <boily> `relcome wanderman
12:11:00 <HackEgo> wanderman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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13:19:06 <oerjan> sweet mother of node spam
13:25:36 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> . o O ( where *is* Roujo now? ) <-- have you checked the other channel, he's right there hth
13:27:58 <HackEgo> "Oh lord, we've adpoted another one." (about Emily) => Marten realizes what kind of webcomic he lives in in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298
13:28:09 <HackEgo> <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <b_jonas> slashlearn adpoted/"Oh lord, we\'ve adpoted another one." (about Emily) => Marten realizes what kind of webcomic he lives in in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298 \ <b_jonas> slashlearn adpoted/"Oh lord, we\'ve adpoted another one." => Marten realizes how the
13:29:21 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; mv ad{po,op}ted; sled 'adopted//s/pot/opt/'
13:29:23 <HackEgo> adopted//"Oh lord, we've adopted another one." (about Emily) => Marten realizes what kind of webcomic he lives in in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298
13:30:14 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas oyu souhld adpot bteter spellign thh
13:35:56 <fizzie> oerjan: It's a scow how every non-executable file now has the chmod 777 and my revert in their howg.
13:37:15 <HackEgo> <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ <oerjan> sled quotes//1289s/ // \ <alercah> addquote < hppavilion[1]> alercah: Also, this isn\'t a PC thing- if it was PC, it wouldn\'t list ones for whites \ <oerjan> addquote <hppavilion[1]> I think we need to make Greece an independent country \ <oerjan> sled quotes//1287s,I.*,[...]
13:37:47 <oerjan> fizzie: you can now join ais523's company hth
13:39:36 <fizzie> I probably should've done a manual hg thing to change the head, instead of doing a revert commit. But it's a bit too late for that now.
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13:46:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49772&oldid=49748 * Total Vacuum * (+14)
13:47:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49773 * Total Vacuum * (+494) Created page with "'''bf core''' bf core is extremely optimized by size (69 bytes) brainfuck programming language preamble written in x86-asm. You can use this simple core in your brainfuck com..."
13:47:45 <oerjan> standard procedure for cows hth
13:48:32 * evilmoon kills oerjan's hairy toe to get rid of its help
13:48:39 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
13:50:59 <oerjan> but but without my toe the channel will become infested by BIG HAMS
13:51:34 <evilmoon> i dont get it. pls add Sense() to the mix please?
13:51:46 <oerjan> anyway, it's a zombie toe anyway. BTATINS.
13:51:58 <oerjan> sorry spellfin out of otrer
13:52:32 <HackEgo> Sense is the ability to understand things. A person with much sense is called a sensei.
13:53:23 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico!
13:53:26 <oerjan> `learn The TOE is the Toe of Everything, from which our universe sprang.
13:53:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'toe': The TOE is the Toe of Everything, from which our universe sprang.
13:53:51 <HackEgo> A universe is a poem in one stanza.
13:54:46 <evilmoon> `le/rn evil/evil is a special thing, it must be followed by 4 letters of your nickname. it is very evil, and thus is recursive
13:56:46 <oerjan> . o O ( /mode #esoteric +q evil*!* )
13:57:23 -!- evilmoon has changed nick to not_evilmoon.
13:57:26 <int-e> oerjan: the channel mode, not Ford.
13:57:40 <int-e> (He was Prefect anyway)
13:58:18 <int-e> sorry, stupid flexible brain
13:58:21 -!- not_evilmoon has changed nick to evilmoonj.
13:58:30 -!- evilmoonj has changed nick to evilmoon.
13:58:31 <int-e> (read: unreliable)
13:58:52 <oerjan> `slwd evil//s/./E/;s/$/./
13:58:54 <HackEgo> wisdom/evil//Evil is a special thing, it must be followed by 4 letters of your nickname. it is very evil, and thus is recursive.
13:59:11 <oerjan> `slwd evil//s/\. it/. It/
13:59:12 * evilmoon wishes chromebooks had a alt pad so i could use (SOFT HYPHEN)s
13:59:13 <HackEgo> wisdom/evil//Evil is a special thing, it must be followed by 4 letters of your nickname. It is very evil, and thus is recursive.
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14:00:08 <oerjan> note: format corrections do not imply quality approval hth
14:00:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49774&oldid=49773 * Total Vacuum * (-7)
14:02:13 <oerjan> i see just a normal hyphen anyway.
14:02:32 <oerjan> evilmoon: go join the queue with shachaf hth
14:02:52 <oerjan> seriously, it takes that little?
14:03:22 <evilmoon> how? i just tried switching buffers and that doesnt work
14:03:33 <oerjan> how broken is it, anyway.
14:04:01 <evilmoon> it basically made ncurses hate me
14:04:34 <evilmoon> 13:01:47 oerjan | `unicode soft hyphen │ augur
14:04:36 <evilmoon> 13:01:47 HackEgo | n │ b_jonas
14:04:38 <evilmoon> 13:2:007 oerjan | testing n │ BooK_
14:04:38 -!- `^_^v has joined.
14:04:40 <evilmoon> 13:2:407 evilmoon | err g n │ brandonson
14:04:42 <evilmoon> 13:2:707 evilmoon | erlook it up │ Cale
14:09:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
14:09:57 * evilmoon pokes oerjan in the eyeball for making a habit of ruining people's buffer
14:10:41 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:10:47 * oerjan swats evilmoon ###
14:13:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49775&oldid=49774 * Total Vacuum * (+84)
14:14:00 <HackEgo> The Realm of Freenode is our homeland. The Chännel dwells in it since... Uhm... Quite a few years ago?
14:14:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49776&oldid=49775 * Total Vacuum * (+4)
14:16:28 <evilmoon> im having to repeatedly refresh my terminal damnit >_<
14:17:02 <oerjan> well don't make a habit of poking people in the eye then.
14:17:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49777&oldid=49776 * Total Vacuum * (+6)
14:19:21 <evilmoon> oerjan: whats your stance on lolcode?
14:19:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49778&oldid=49772 * Total Vacuum * (-14)
14:20:08 <oerjan> a fairly boring language with weird syntax
14:21:37 <evilmoon> damnit otherbot y u broken i need evilfl35 to fix this because hes the one who hacked together the IRC connection
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14:23:33 <evilmoon> damn it was trying to connect to morgan, but morgan is down
14:24:02 * evilmoon tells it to connect to the round-robin loopback instead
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14:37:30 -!- otherbot has changed nick to evilrbot.
14:40:52 <evilmoon> oerjan: Gregor got on last night to fix a issue with hackego
14:41:30 <Gregor> DON'T TELL PEOPLE I EXIST
14:41:44 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
14:43:58 <evilmoon> So, Gregor, did you manage to get revert to work in a chmod 000 / -R situation?
14:44:43 <oerjan> i think fizzie made that patch?
14:44:56 <evilmoon> he did, just curious if it was integrated
14:45:04 <evilmoon> because 0000 might also be able to cause issues
14:45:27 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
14:45:34 <evilmoon> because chmod 0000 / -R makes it all non executable as well
14:46:05 <int-e> Gregor: I can SEEEE you!
14:46:40 <oerjan> Gregor: there's a spot in HackEgo that wasn't quite ready for the surprise of canary becoming a directory twh
14:47:40 <int-e> Gregor: Did you know that this channel is still logged despite glogbots absence?!
14:47:54 <oerjan> and then there's that other... oh right, glogbot too
14:52:24 <int-e> Gregor: What I meant to say, of course, is: Welcome back! How have you been? We were worried that you were eaten by rabid students!
14:52:44 <oerjan> . o O ( or a rare, carnivorous hat )
14:53:15 <Gregor> Suffice it to say I'm finding real employment to be more time consuming than being a grad student ;)
14:54:15 <evilfl35> and it wasn't hacked together, but if i fix it, it will be...
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14:56:31 <oerjan> evilfl35: nothing is wrong, nothing to see here, move along...
14:57:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49779&oldid=49777 * Total Vacuum * (+1338)
14:57:24 <evilmoon> evilrbot has nothing wrong with it
14:57:28 <oerjan> evilfl35: you didn't here anything and aliens don't exist
14:57:41 <evilmoon> i just set it to use hte loopback
14:57:46 <evilfl35> and aliens probably do exist in the observable universe
14:57:59 <evilfl35> evilmoon: why... use morgan.freenode.net
14:58:12 <evilfl35> i should make it follow fnalerts
14:58:21 <FireFly> why would you connect directly to morgan... you should just use the round-robin, yeah
14:58:22 <evilmoon> chat.freenode.net will do fine
14:58:24 <evilfl35> maybe build our own freenode alerts system?
14:58:34 <evilfl35> FireFly: that was for the netsplit, forgot to change it back
14:58:40 <int-e> oerjan: http://static.nichtlustig.de/comics/full/041101.jpg (you know a bit of german, I believe)
14:58:56 <FireFly> During DDoS/netsplits in particular, relying on the roundrobin is smart since that is what staff can change :p
14:59:05 <evilfl35> (also the fnalerts bot was on morgan.freenode.net lol)
14:59:26 <evilfl35> FireFly: the round robin times out most of the time and they most apparently did not change it
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15:00:13 <FireFly> That'd be one particular server that timed out, which was probably because we hadn't gotten around to update it yet (or rather, the infra team hadn't)
15:00:14 <oerjan> evilfl35: yes, but we certainly haven't observed them. ha, ha! what an idea!
15:00:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49780&oldid=49779 * Total Vacuum * (-3)
15:01:08 <evilfl35> well it seemed morgan was the best choice at the time, at least
15:01:28 <oerjan> int-e: truth in advertising
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15:12:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Total Vacuum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49781 * Total Vacuum * (+8) Created page with "Welcome!"
15:21:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49782&oldid=49780 * Total Vacuum * (+13)
15:28:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49783&oldid=49782 * Total Vacuum * (+14)
15:32:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49784&oldid=49783 * Total Vacuum * (-7)
15:34:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49785&oldid=49781 * Moon * (+186) /* Greetings! */ new section
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15:36:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49786&oldid=49784 * Total Vacuum * (-4)
15:40:04 <evilmoon> i wonder what the perfect esolang for IRC would be. (one that can be programmed in easily on IRC
15:44:35 <evilmoon> -pad 64+"?kniht lla uoy od tahw">:#,_@
15:48:12 <oerjan> ^ul (Didn't someone mention Underload already?)
15:48:14 <oerjan> ^ul (Didn't someone mention Underload already?)S
15:48:14 <fungot> Didn't someone mention Underload already?
15:50:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:50:53 <ais523> hi evilmoon; hi Gregor!
15:51:54 <evilmoon> `` echo 'echo \$2 > \'tmp/\$\{\$1\}padfile\'' > bin/pad
15:51:55 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
15:52:17 <evilmoon> `mk bin/pad\\echo $2 > 'tmp/${$1}padfile'
15:52:19 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
15:52:28 <evilmoon> `mkx bin/pad//echo $2 > 'tmp/${$1}padfile'
15:52:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `pad: not found
15:52:44 <oerjan> evilmoon: that's not very good quoting.
15:53:09 <HackEgo> cat: tmp/1padfile: No such file or directory
15:54:48 <evilmoon> `mkx bin/pad//echo $2 > "tmp/$(echo $1)padfile"
15:55:06 <HackEgo> tmp/1padfile \ tmp/${$1}padfile
15:55:26 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$1" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | { /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}") ; }
15:55:37 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ cmd="$1" \ shift \ f="$*" \ if [[ -z "$f" && "$cmd" == *\ * ]]; then f="${cmd#* }"; cmd="${cmd%% *}"; fi \ if [[ -z "$f" ]]; then echo try: \`f command filename; elif [[ -e "$f" ]]; then "$cmd" "$(< "$f")"; else echo no such file: "$f"; fi
15:57:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:57:14 <evilmoon> `mkx bin/pad//echo "$(echo $2)\n" >> "tmp/$(echo $1)padfile"
15:58:15 <evilmoon> `mkx bin/pad//echo $\"$(echo $2)\n" >> "tmp/$(echo $1)padfile"
15:58:20 <evilmoon> `mkx bin/pad//echo $"$(echo $2)\n" >> "tmp/$(echo $1)padfile"
16:00:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
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16:01:22 <evilmoon> `mkx bin/pad//printf "$(printf $2)\n" >> "tmp/$(echo $1)padfile"
16:01:40 <HackEgo> test \ test\n \ test\n \ test
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16:04:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49787&oldid=49786 * Total Vacuum * (+359)
16:05:45 <evilator> it bugs me how our nicks are the same color and length
16:06:05 <Time-Wrap> evilfl35: my fucking valoran node went down DL
16:06:18 <evilmoon> weechat just assigns a random color to your nicks.
16:06:21 <evilfl35> Time-Wrap: so did my insomnia247 node but then the admin fixed ze ddos filter
16:06:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:07:11 <evilmoon> just dont get fizzie / Gregor mad at you and your good :P
16:07:27 <Time-Wrap> so if I try my thing now it wont work
16:07:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49788&oldid=49787 * Total Vacuum * (+49)
16:07:41 <evilator> evilator: I used to have an annoying autocorrect bot feature
16:08:13 <evilator> I used to have an annoying autocorrect bot feature
16:08:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49789&oldid=49788 * Total Vacuum * (-6)
16:09:02 <evilmoon> oerjan: is it possible for a command sent to hackego to get the name of it's caller?
16:09:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Total Vacuum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49790 * Total Vacuum * (+21) Created page with "Under construction..."
16:09:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:09:42 <ais523> evilmoon: my connection is dubious
16:09:52 <ais523> in addition to freenode potentially being ddosed
16:09:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:10:31 -!- ski_ has changed nick to ski.
16:10:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49791&oldid=49789 * Total Vacuum * (+23)
16:10:37 <oerjan> evilmoon: not that i know of.
16:10:55 <fizzie> `mkx bin/pad//pad="$1"; shift; echo "$@" >> "tmp/pad.$pad"
16:11:01 <fizzie> That's at least a little more sane, IMO.
16:11:16 -!- MDead has joined.
16:11:22 <fizzie> The thing with $(echo $1) in place of $1 was tb. ("Too bizarre".)
16:11:35 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:11:57 * evilmoon hides the wirecutters before ais523 notices
16:12:27 <ais523> evilmoon: actually this is a wireless connection, so it may well be rain that's making it unreliable
16:12:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:12:51 <fizzie> Also I think most of the nick-colorisation schemes assign a color based on a hash, not randomly. (For persistence.)
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16:13:02 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude.
16:13:59 <evilmoon> -pad 5 :>>#;1-:48*+01p*01g48*-#;1#+-#1:#<_$.@
16:14:11 <evilmoon> -pad 5 :>>#;1-:48*+01p*01g48*-#;1#+-#1:#<_$.@
16:16:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:18:55 <evilmoon> nice internet. try a wired connection and something thats not satelite
16:20:18 -!- PocketKiller has joined.
16:20:35 <evilmoon> PocketKiller, what bring you here?
16:21:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:21:14 -!- PocketKiller has left (">:D").
16:25:33 -!- Time-Wrap has changed nick to wiggle.
16:26:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
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16:30:42 <evilmoon> note the other random evil people :P
16:32:02 -!- nycs has joined.
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16:36:11 <HackEgo> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type host
16:36:50 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ kmod \ less \
16:36:54 <HackEgo> Usage: ping [-LRUbdfnqrvVaAD] [-c count] [-i interval] [-w deadline] \ [-p pattern] [-s packetsize] [-t ttl] [-I interface] \ [-M pmtudisc-hint] [-m mark] [-S sndbuf] \ [-T tstamp-options] [-Q tos] [hop1 ...] destination
16:36:58 <HackEgo> ping: unknown host google.com
16:37:50 <HackEgo> agpgart \ audio \ audio1 \ audio2 \ audio3 \ audioctl \ console \ core \ dsp \ dsp1 \ dsp2 \ dsp3 \ fd \ full \ kmem \ loop0 \ loop1 \ loop2 \ loop3 \ loop4 \ loop5 \ loop6 \ loop7 \ mem \ midi0 \ midi00 \ midi01 \ midi02 \ midi03 \ midi1 \ midi2 \ midi3 \ mixer \ mixer1 \ mixer2 \ mixer3 \ mpu401data \ mpu401stat \ null \ port \ ptmx \ pts \ ram \
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16:52:12 <\oren\> evilfl35: the sandbox has not interwebz
16:53:23 <Gregor> So, it seems that in my absence, #esoteric became the "try to hack hackbot" channel. I fear I've done terrible things.
16:54:49 -!- `^_^ has joined.
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17:00:53 <evilfl35> Gregor: nope, it's pretty much <newbs> i wonder what this this does
17:02:25 <ais523> Gregor: we found a couple of ways to permanently damage it, I think, even though we didn't find ways to escape the sandbox
17:02:28 <ais523> mostly via exploiting bugs in hg
17:02:55 <ais523> `` echo making a change for the purpose of reverting it >> temp
17:03:01 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
17:03:21 <ais523> I think we're stuck with that "cannot remove" forever, or until someone figures out a way to fix it
17:05:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:10:58 <evilmoon> Gregor: evilrbot, evilator, evilvoid, and wiggle are new, wiggle is the one who borked the bot most recently
17:11:12 <evilmoon> oh evil3bot is a bot, i ment evilfl35
17:12:18 -!- evilrbot has changed nick to otherbot.
17:12:36 -!- otherbot has changed nick to evilrbot.
17:12:46 -!- evilrbot has changed nick to otherbot.
17:12:53 -!- evilmoon has changed nick to moonythedwarf.
17:18:29 -!- evilfl35 has changed nick to jeffl35.
17:19:15 <HackEgo> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
17:20:17 <\oren\> I have a bot, but it's under the same nick as me
17:20:29 <\oren\> and has no help command.
17:21:43 <HackEgo> <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ <oerjan> mkx bin/culprits//hoag "$@" | awk \'{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}\' | sed "s/.$/\\x0F&/" | xargs \ <hppavilion[1]> ` mv bin/culprits bin/culprits2; mv bin/innocent bin/culprits \ <hppavilion[1]> ` mv bin/culprits2 bin/culprits \ <hppavili
17:22:42 <jeffl35> `` rm --no-preserve-root /
17:22:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/': Is a directory
17:22:47 <\oren\> the character that activates my bot is the snowflake
17:23:01 <myname> TIL https://youtu.be/IvUU8joBb1Q they actually play this on concerts without the machine
17:24:35 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /bin/man: No such file or directory
17:24:42 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
17:24:44 <moonythedwarf> jeffl35: its to prevent people from locking up the bot
17:24:56 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
17:25:03 <HackEgo> <fizzie> revert 58b9ee8f97a7 \ <jeffl35> ` rm --no-preserve-root -rfv / # testing, plz no ban \ <lifthrasiir> ` (echo \'#!/bin/sh\'; echo \'echo Nice try.\') > bin/man && chmod a+x bin/man \ <lifthrasiir> ` (echo \'#!/bin/sh\'; echo \'Nice try.\') > bin/man && chmod a+x bin/man
17:25:15 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
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17:26:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:27:20 <jeffl35> -eval bot2 = require('child_process').spawn('node',['app.js']);
17:29:01 <HackEgo> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
17:29:58 <moonythedwarf> hmm, int-e / fizzie, how would i go about printing only the commands that were preformed on a file?
17:30:29 <jeffl35> eval bot2 = require('child_process').spawn('node',['app.js']);
17:30:29 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: bot2 is not defined]
17:30:34 <jeffl35> eval var bot2 = require('child_process').spawn('node',['app.js']);
17:30:39 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: bot2 is not defined]
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17:31:01 <jeffl35> at least they have different cmdchars
17:31:02 -!- otherbot_ has joined.
17:31:06 <moonythedwarf> try modifying the global object to make a variable perm
17:31:12 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: bot2 is not defined]
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17:33:16 <myname> geez, why do people always spam the channel with bot crap
17:34:08 <moonythedwarf> jeffl35: if your going to experiment, take it to your channel
17:35:21 <jeffl35> eval bot.bot2 = require('child_process').spawn('node',['app.js']);
17:35:32 <otherbot> _handle: Process { owner: [Circular], onexit: [Function], pid: 14383 },
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17:39:23 <myname> this channel is not for enormous bit configure testing
17:40:23 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: configure :: Int
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17:40:52 <moonythedwarf> jeffl35: it can stay, but it can be used excessivly in here
17:41:14 <jeffl35> eh, if everybody's going to complain, then it can't stay
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17:41:38 <jeffl35> need to fix the part comand
17:41:57 <moonythedwarf> no you dont. lets talk in the other channel for a moment
17:42:24 <jeffl35> (no seriously, when given without arguments it should not part a channel named undefined)
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17:57:23 <izalove> i have a data structure that can be indexed by integers
17:57:43 <izalove> but not all the elements must be set
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17:58:16 <izalove> first idea is to use a hash table, but i want to be able to iterate over the keys in order
17:58:38 <izalove> if i use something like a rb tree i get log n access time
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17:59:41 <izalove> so my idea is to use a hash table to store the actual data, so retrieving them takes constant time, but also store the keys in a tree
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18:00:03 <izalove> so inserting a new value takes logarithmic time
18:00:31 <izalove> but accessing elements that already in the structure is still constant time
18:01:05 -!- alakra has joined.
18:02:16 <izalove> ...that are* already in the structure..
18:02:54 <myname> you could use a fibonacci heap instead of a tree
18:03:08 <izalove> let me look it up real quick
18:06:11 <myname> i am not sure how expensive copying is, though
18:15:16 <\oren\> I hate it when I try to compile a program I want to use, and discover a compiler error that could easily have been fixed.
18:15:59 <izalove> it's much better when there's a compiler error that can't be easily fixed
18:16:05 <\oren\> in this case, the newest version of tmux won't compile because they are trying to use the va_args macros without #include <stdarg.h>
18:16:53 <myname> even i at least compile before shipping
18:17:33 <\oren\> maybe they assume that stdio.h includes stdarg.h?
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18:29:58 <oren> after some finagling with the stupid tmux code, it compiled and I'm now using tmux 2.2
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18:32:27 <oren> now i'm getting segfaults
18:33:06 <oren> wait or maybe it's irssi that is segfaulting
18:36:13 <oren> where can I go yell at the tmux devs
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18:51:54 <moonythedwarf> either something is wrong with ><>'s author's implentation, or the quine on its esolang page doesnt work
18:52:26 <jeffl35> moonythedwarf: or you implemented the thing wrong
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19:00:10 <\oren\> reverse polish notation
19:00:40 <\oren\> moonythedwarf: I wrote a crappy thing in C
19:01:08 <myname> write an rpn is like the most simple thing ever
19:01:21 <myname> in haskell it's like 2 lines and one line per operator
19:01:40 <\oren\> oh right it's only integer
19:02:51 <\oren\> I should make a more useful thing. the only useful thing it has right now is the Kerbal Space Program delta V calculator
19:03:15 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 3711.4362202711
19:03:35 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 2799.18496003117
19:04:52 <\oren\> I don't think he's here right now
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19:12:04 <moonythedwarf> i tried zzo38's sandboxing tip, lets see if you all can break it. doot see -js
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19:45:02 <wob_jonas> \oren\: [on ₯] "that character is an interesting one because it never actually appeared on the greek drachma notes" => Interesting only if you're British. The euro sign € doesn't appear on the euro coins or notes, and the dollar sign doesn't appear on US dollar banknotes either. I think symbols not appearing on banknotes is the default.
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19:49:33 <\oren\> wob_jonas: I haven't been able to find any usage of the symbol at all by greeks
19:49:55 <\oren\> the symbol they use is capital delta, lowercase rho
19:50:25 <wob_jonas> \oren\: how much have you been in Greece before the euro was introduced there?
19:51:17 <moonythedwarf> i tried zzo38's sandboxing tip, lets see if you all can break it. doot see -js
19:51:25 <shachaf> The $ sign does appear on the US $100,000 bill.
19:51:25 <otherbot> 'ReferenceError: x is not defined'
19:54:24 <lifthras1ir> wob_jonas: AFAIK ₧ is also a "less conceiving" currency mark, its exact glyph is not well specified AFAIK
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20:03:57 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you know that Agner Fog's calling conventions manual http://www.agner.org/optimize/#manual_call_conv describes most of the details of the schemes used by popular C++ compilers, right?
20:05:34 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in theory that allows you to call C++ functions, but it doesn't allow you to access a lot of structures defined by the C++ standard library, because the ABI for that is decided not by the mangling, but by the struct declarations, inline function definitions, and other declarations and macro definitions in the headers, and Agner's manual does
20:05:34 <wob_jonas> n't describe that because it would be almost impossible.
20:06:24 <wob_jonas> @tell zzo38 You know that Agner Fog's calling conventions manual http://www.agner.org/optimize/#manual_call_conv describes most of the details of the schemes used by popular C++ compilers, right? In theory that allows you to call C++ functions, but \
20:06:42 <wob_jonas> @tell zzo38 it doesn't allow you to access a lot of structures defined by the C++ standard library, because the ABI for that is decided not by the mangling, but by the struct declarations, inline function definitions, and other declarations and macro definitions in the headers, and Agner's manual doesn't describe that because it would be almost imp
20:08:27 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf: wait, how is zzo38 not online? He's usually joined to this channel, even when he's not actually listening.
20:13:29 <wob_jonas> \oren\: also, apparently the UK has 10 shilling notes until 1970, which might explain why the pound notes have a pound sign printed: it makes it easier to distinguish 10 shilling notes from 10 pound notes at a glance even if you're unfamiliar with the particular notes.
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20:31:24 <fizzie> @tell ais523 I had a fix for it all thought out, but forgot about the details already. It had something to do with adjusting the find.
20:31:55 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Although I'm pretty sure a working fix would be to use hg revert --no-backup, and omit the find -name '*.orig' -exec rm altogether.
20:32:11 <wob_jonas> fizzie: is this about the bug in `revert of Hackego?
20:33:21 <wob_jonas> jeffl35: you can also try to use memoserv, which is a service tied to nickserv and lets you send memos to nickserv accounts
20:33:38 <jeffl35> wob_jonas: but what does @tell do?
20:33:43 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
20:33:52 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
20:33:52 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
20:33:56 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search
20:33:56 <lambdabot> slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
20:34:19 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages-loud messages? clear-messages auto-reply auto-reply? clear-auto-reply
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20:56:06 <fizzie> wob_jonas: The euro symbol *is* on some of the notes; 5, 10 and 20, in the reflectiony strip at the end.
20:56:32 <wob_jonas> fizzie: the hologram-like strips? hmm, let me check that
20:56:34 <myname> he said it's not on the coins
20:56:49 <myname> but yeah, it is on the notes
20:56:53 <fizzie> myname: "The euro sign € doesn't appear on the euro coins or notes --"
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20:58:10 <wob_jonas> ah wait, the euro symbol is indeed on the 10 euro note, not on the hologram strip, but both printed on the obverse and in the transparent shiny strip (not the hologram) in the obverse
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20:59:05 <fizzie> Wikipedia's description of the security features also says: "Security Thread: When the note is held against the light, the security thread appears as a dark line. The Euro symbol (€) and the value of the banknote can be seen in tiny white lettering in the thread."
20:59:09 <fizzie> But that doesn't really count.
20:59:20 <wob_jonas> I guess I hadn't looked much at the euro banknotes
20:59:29 <fizzie> I saw the new UK £5 note the first time the other day.
20:59:31 <wob_jonas> fizzie: it does sort of count, though obviously that's less prominent
20:59:33 <fizzie> It's got a hole in it.
20:59:46 <fizzie> Well, not a real hole. But a transparent thing.
21:00:58 <wob_jonas> I think it's possible only on banknotes printed on non-paper plastic material
21:01:14 <fizzie> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/06/02/99648581_five-pound-banknote-NEWS-large_trans++tLiXk9I2QPXgI4Uxb3W8EZ4gz3qz54_bsJIilxgiIC0.jpg -- that "framed" thing above the word "Five" was transparent-ish, I think.
21:01:39 <fizzie> And yeah, the new ones are some sort of polymer thing.
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21:03:52 <wob_jonas> banknotes on plastic are more resistant to wear and tear, but I suspect it might be more difficult to add a good set of security features on them
21:08:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49792&oldid=49791 * Total Vacuum * (+74)
21:08:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49793&oldid=49792 * Total Vacuum * (+5)
21:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49794&oldid=49793 * Total Vacuum * (-3)
21:10:52 <wob_jonas> I don't live there, so I only ever see GBP as an electronic currency online, not the actual banknotes. (The same is true for CAD and AUD.)
21:12:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49795&oldid=49794 * Total Vacuum * (+0)
21:12:51 <wob_jonas> fizzie: oh, and the euro symbol is also on the hologram strip on the front of the 10 euro notes, in addition to the ones on the obverse I already mentioned. It's just a bit hard to see there.
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21:17:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49796&oldid=49795 * Total Vacuum * (-62)
21:17:24 <wob_jonas> It turns out, that on the older versions of the euro notes, printed before 2013..2015, the euro symbol is much less prominent, in particular it doesn't appear as a large white symbol printed on the top left corner on the back side.
21:17:42 <wob_jonas> That is definitely part of why I assumed the euro symbol didn't appear on the euro banknotes.
21:18:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49797&oldid=49796 * Total Vacuum * (-3)
21:18:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49798&oldid=49797 * Total Vacuum * (-2)
21:19:22 <\oren\> I haven't been to greece much. My knowledge is based on searches on the internet for the google translated word for "reciept" drachma, etc
21:19:23 <wob_jonas> Most of the banknotes I've seen are from the older version.
21:19:43 <\oren\> I was there as a tiny tot
21:21:33 <wob_jonas> The euro symbol still appears on the hologram strip and on the transparent shiny strip on the old versions though.
21:22:07 <\oren\> on greek euros they spell it EYPO
21:24:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49799&oldid=49798 * Total Vacuum * (+19)
21:24:36 <fizzie> They spell it both EURO and ΕΥΡΩ on all of them.
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21:26:25 <fizzie> Which I guess makes it a scow that they haven't added ЕУРО now that people like Bulgaria have joined the club.
21:26:36 <\oren\> oh, it's an omega, not an omicron?
21:27:14 <wob_jonas> fizzie: bulgaria? bulgaria doesn't use the euro yet
21:27:37 <fizzie> Oh, they *do* have ЕВРО (I guess that's how it goes there) on the new series.
21:28:56 <\oren\> i think it's bulgarian
21:30:23 <\oren\> it looks like in bulgarian "european union" is "evropeyski suyuz"
21:31:43 <\oren\> suyuz is like in russian but with a ъ instead of a о
21:32:45 <\oren\> and bulgraian is included because it's a minority language in a bunch of southeastern european countries
21:33:20 <wob_jonas> \oren\: in which country is it a minority language where the euro is also used?
21:34:01 <\oren\> Hungary and Greece at least
21:34:01 <fizzie> I'd guess they've included it purely because of the EU membership, not because of participation in the eurozone.
21:34:39 <\oren\> is the Czech Republic in the Eurozone yet?
21:34:40 <wob_jonas> Hungary has Bulgarian as a minority language? I don't think it's well-spread here, and besides, we don't use the euro anyway
21:35:20 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no, czech republic has its own currency (currently)
21:35:32 <\oren\> hmm, I gues it must just be greece then
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21:36:20 <fizzie> wob_jonas: http://www.new-euro-banknotes.eu/Euro-Banknotes/Europa-Series-Design "the name of the currency, euro, not only in the Latin (EURO) and Greek (EYPΩ) alphabets but also in the Cyrillic (EBPO) alphabet, as a result of Bulgaria joining the EU"
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21:37:12 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it might be more because of serbian or macedonian as a minority language
21:38:28 <wob_jonas> or because they're planning in advance for more countries joining the eurozone
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21:39:07 <fizzie> The notes have also got the initials of the European Central Bank in approximately all official languages of EU member states, even those not part of the 'zone.
21:39:17 <fizzie> Including the Hungarian "EKB".
21:39:49 <fizzie> (There's a countries-and-languages list behind that link as well.)
21:40:04 <\oren\> the RMB has apparently got on it Chinese, mandarin pinyin, Mongolian, Tibetan, Uyghur (in Arabic script), and Zhuang.
21:40:05 <wob_jonas> fizzie: EKB is also only on the newer versions of the notes
21:40:25 <fizzie> Well, you joined later.
21:41:04 <wob_jonas> the old version has what looks like "BCE ECB EZB EKT EKP", where presumably ECB and BCE are English and French, who always reverse their acronyms
21:41:35 <fizzie> EKP is there just for Finnish and Estonian.
21:42:03 <wob_jonas> the newer one has "BCE ECB E<russian ts><russian b> EZB EKP EKT EKB B<c with dot above>E EBC"
21:43:09 <wob_jonas> I would guess EZB is german, and the one with c with dot above is probably slovakian.
21:44:37 <\oren\> wikipedia says Europa:ische Zentralbank
21:45:18 <\oren\> because the germans like to squeeze words together even if they would happily stand on their own
21:45:42 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, and zentral is definitely a real german word
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22:29:55 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: i have a reversable 2d language with 3 instructions: / (mirror 1) \ (mirror 2) and < (split/join), how could i combine \ and / ?
22:30:36 <oerjan> why would you do that, it's nicely symmetric. also have you looked at BackFlip
22:31:21 * oerjan doesn't think anyone ever found a good way of programming it.
22:32:08 <oerjan> you seem to have chosen similar command characters, at least.
22:32:33 <moonythedwarf> yay i have less instructions :P i came up with it during school, just chose some symbols that look like my diagrams
22:32:36 <oerjan> but split/join doesn't sound like what < does in backflip.
22:32:38 <wob_jonas> oerjan: nice. wasn't there also some 2d fungeoid language with only two different characters, space and a tricky one?
22:33:03 <oerjan> there may be more than one.
22:33:27 <oerjan> (Jolverine is also reversible)
22:33:37 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: what i looked at for insperation was the billard ball machine (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Billiard_ball_machine) page
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22:34:51 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: funny way of getting inspired, the /\< chars there seem to be just for demonstration...
22:35:20 <moonythedwarf> now that a look at it again, i could possibly only use two instructions and diagonal only moving balls
22:35:21 <oerjan> as in, not actually part of the language
22:35:27 <wob_jonas> note that Black is self-modifying (modifies the contents of its instruction cells during execution) in an essential way
22:35:46 <oerjan> was Black reversible too...
22:36:31 <moonythedwarf> wob_jonas: the topic right now is reversable languages
22:38:24 <oerjan> i'm not sure it was the topic, i only remembered jolverine was reversible after mentioning it.
22:38:26 <wob_jonas> wait, which is that 2d fungeoid that has space and the four arrows as the only commands, and tiling a quarter plane with instructions?
22:41:22 <oerjan> wob_jonas: also, Wierd may fit your question too
22:41:57 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: say i wanted to make a one directional gate in my theoretical language
22:42:38 <moonythedwarf> that would, if the 'ball' came from the left, send it back again
22:42:41 <oerjan> hm, Nopfunge may have been added after i gave up following the wiki.
22:42:48 <moonythedwarf> in fact, actually, cut that last < in the middle line
22:44:12 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: note that if your language is reversible and commands don't change state, then you can only have one input path going to each output path
22:44:15 <wob_jonas> It would be easy to define a 2d language that's equivalent to Nopfunge and uses only two characters (instead of five), but what the machine does depends not only on the character under the pointer, but also on the some characters on adjacent cells.
22:44:45 <wob_jonas> Hmm, in fact you could make it even without that.
22:44:49 <HackEgo> Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack doctor oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
22:44:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Solak * New user account
22:44:57 <oerjan> did HackEgo turn slow again
22:46:08 * moonythedwarf is thinking about how to make a turing complete single instruction esolang
22:46:51 <wob_jonas> It would be easy if the pointer always had a speed of two, and the command rotated it right then displaced it by one tile forward in the new direction, so essentially you have the plane colored to four different colors, each color of square used exactly in one of the four compass directions.
22:47:48 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/cambrian/-recombination/
22:47:55 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack doctor oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
22:53:18 <myname> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/antsylabs/fidget-cube-a-vinyl-desk-toy i kinda want this
22:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> Horrifying operation: Together with P[n](a, b) (hyperoperations), R[n](a, i) (hyperoperation roots), and P[n](b, x) (hyperoperation logarithms), Pw[c](a, b), Rw[c](a, b), and Lw[c](a, b)
22:56:17 <HackEgo> making a change for the purpose of reverting it
22:56:31 <HackEgo> 2016-09-26 <ais523> ` echo making a change for the purpose of reverting it >> temp
22:56:38 <hppavilion[1]> Pw[c](a, b) is hyperwhich; it is equal to n s.t. P[n](a, b) = c
22:56:52 <oerjan> shachaf: ais523 wanted to demonstrate one of the `revert bugs but also hit the other one.
22:56:54 <hppavilion[1]> Rw and Lw are similar, but with R and L instead of P, respectively
22:57:11 <shachaf> `` echo demonstrating bugs > tmp/temp
22:57:22 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `tmp/temp': No such file or directory
22:57:26 <HackEgo> cat: temp tmp/temp: No such file or directory
22:57:35 <HackEgo> cat: temp: No such file or directory \ cat: tmp/temp: No such file or directory
22:58:44 <fizzie> Let's say it's a feature.
23:00:07 <oerjan> fizzie: the `` mv tmp/... thing, you mean? because the other things were bugs
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23:03:43 <shachaf> oerjan: are you out of quack mode
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23:04:40 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 9h 39m 4s ago: <boily> . o O ( where *is* Roujo now? ) <-- have you checked the other channel, he's right there hth
23:04:42 -!- evilvoid has changed nick to iovoid.
23:04:54 <boily> oh hm. yes, indeed.
23:08:41 <boily> iovoid: hiovelloid.
23:10:48 <boily> you were evilvoid. were you somebody else before that?
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23:11:55 <iovoid> I am iovoid most of the time
23:13:26 <boily> oh, so I haven't `relcomed you yet! :D
23:13:33 <HackEgo> iovoid: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:14:09 <wob_jonas> there's no language called nopfuck yet? great! maybe brainfuck variants aren't as well-spread as I thought
23:15:58 <boily> is there a self-brainfuck-derivative out there, akin to how d(e^x)/dx = e^x?
23:16:20 <wob_jonas> boily: I don't really understand what you mean by that
23:16:43 <wob_jonas> what would a self-brainfuck-derivative mean?
23:16:47 <shachaf> It's kind of funny how that has the chain rule built in.
23:17:03 <shachaf> That must be the reason the dy/dx notation looks like divison.
23:17:40 <wob_jonas> a derivative that is equal to its own brainfuck? a brainfuck that is equal to its own derivative? something that is equal to the brainfuck of its own derivative? something that brainfucks its derivative?
23:17:54 <boily> dy/dx *is* division. don't y'all dare tell me otherwise.
23:21:15 <HackEgo> cookbook//Random food recipes at https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
23:21:51 <HackEgo> minsky//to Minsky on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a Minsky machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
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23:22:28 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-01-04 <oerjan> ` mv wisdom/minsk{i,y}; sed -i \'s/minski/Minsky/g\' wisdom/mins*
23:22:56 <wob_jonas> why does the oerjan entry say "hungarian" and "oerlord"?
23:23:41 <shachaf> `` dowg oerjan | grep -i hungarian
23:23:46 <HackEgo> 2016-09-16 <shachaf> slwd oerjan//s#overlord kommisjon\xc3\xa6r#hungarian oerlord#
23:24:10 <boily> wob_jonas: oerjan ascended to hungoerjanhood hth
23:24:14 <shachaf> "oerlord" is because he's an overlord, but also an oerjan
23:24:24 <shachaf> And "o'er" is a common contraction of "over"
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23:26:52 <HackEgo> lambek's lemma//Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
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02:20:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49800&oldid=49756 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+322)
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02:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49801&oldid=49800 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+0)
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02:31:47 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, does it make sense to talk about "bisynthetic" or "trisynthetic" languages? A special case of polysynthetic where n=3
02:35:43 <hppavilion[1]> If contract(["I", "Would", "Have"]) is "I'd-a" (it varies), is its negation "I'dn-a"?
02:37:09 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe it should be "I'm~a" so we have a justification to have a tilde on American keyboards)
02:39:04 <HackEgo> roujo//Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
02:39:10 <HackEgo> itay//Itay is Christmas in Italy.
02:39:36 <shachaf> this evilipse person is scow
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03:53:21 <HackEgo> Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
04:15:41 <tswett> So I've watched a couple of "Moskau" misheard lyrics videos.
04:16:10 <tswett> It turns out some of the misheard lyrics are actually accurate translations!
04:16:20 <tswett> Consider, for example, "Come and dance and love the fish".
04:16:47 <tswett> Apparently the German lyric is "Komm wir tanzen auf dem Tisch", which is translated as "Come and dance on a table".
04:17:02 <tswett> Of course, it's no coincidence that the German words for "come" and "dance" sound similar to the English words.
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05:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> I got stereo working; I'm playing sinewave middle c in one ear and cosinewave middle c in the other
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05:05:27 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: "cosinewave" u do realize sine and cosine are the same just shifted by a quarter wavelength right?
05:06:03 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But stereo sine-cosine sounded distinctly different from stereo sine-sine
05:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> So I consider them to be different for stereo purposes
05:06:44 <shachaf> i don't know anything about sound but presumably stereo cosine-cosine at least sounds the same as stereo sine-sine
05:14:06 <quintopia> why not just "stereo in-phase sounds different from stereo out-of-phase"?
05:14:33 <quintopia> (as it should, as it's one way to create a surround sound effect)
05:19:32 <\oren\> shachaf: you can also use fade in fade out
05:20:03 <myname> https://twitter.com/letoams/status/779490839584186368 m(
05:26:21 <Hoolootwo> I'm pretty sure most of the www.* domains are taken
05:31:25 <myname> uu.uu.uu.foo.bar might be nice to confuse people on your domain
05:31:54 <myname> "it's dpuble-u, double-u, double-u, fpo, bar"
05:32:06 <shachaf> "triple-u triple-u" sounds pretty good.
05:32:17 <shachaf> triple-u triple-u dot esolangs dot org
05:35:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: 'double-u dot double-u dot double-u dot foo dot bar'
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06:22:46 <mad> I've looked at if C++ compilers can automatically classify variables as either pointer/array indexes, and all other variables
06:22:50 <mad> I think it's doable
06:23:10 <mad> in SSA form you can just check if the results end up in load address computations and backtrack
06:23:17 <mad> plus pointers have specific types ofc
06:25:25 <mad> so you could do a cpu where pointers, indexes, and other integer values live on separate register files and target it with ordinary compilers
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06:50:05 <mad> which would let you run addressing operations way beforehand, which is one of the major advantages more complex cpus have
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08:08:57 <myname> somewhere else somebody asked on how you can produce a single space in a posix shell without any whitespace in your commands
08:11:00 <shachaf> As in the output of echo -n ' '?
08:11:34 <izalove> but without all that whitespace
08:11:36 <myname> but without the 3 spaces you used
08:11:45 <shachaf> Is the output of echo ' ' good enough?
08:12:09 <shachaf> I'm asking for a problem specification, not suggesting a solution.
08:12:21 <myname> i guess, i am not sure
08:12:28 <shachaf> Are you using the least charitable interpretation of what I'm saying on purpose?
08:12:44 <shachaf> If a newline is OK, you can cat<<<$'\x20'
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08:13:27 <myname> okay, seems like newlines also are unwanted
08:14:08 <myname> okay, i was told bash is okay, but \ and ' are not
08:14:13 <shachaf> Is this exploiting some program that executes arbitrary shell commands without spaces?
08:14:55 <myname> i don't know what he wants to do eith that, but i thought it's some nice puzzle
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08:19:36 <shachaf> This is a pretty incomplete puzzle description.
08:19:40 <shachaf> Better to give the real problem.
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08:22:16 <hppavilion[1]> I should get a bunch of white t-shirts that have a font name printed on them in that font
08:22:32 <myname> no, printed in _another_ font
08:22:58 <myname> like, helvetica printed in times new roman
08:24:10 <myname> that guy who rapes english tells me tshirts need to be correct?
08:24:47 <myname> the advantage of the wrong font thing is that you immediately can befriend anybody who corrects you
08:25:09 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe I'll have a bonus shirt that is intentionally wrong?
09:07:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49802&oldid=49799 * Total Vacuum * (+1502)
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09:13:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49804&oldid=49803 * Total Vacuum * (+2) /* goal */
09:17:50 <fizzie> We have a bunch of dashboard links that contain the word "dash" in them, which are p. tricky to mention out loud.
09:17:53 <fizzie> E.g. "foo-dash-bar" -- if you say "foo dash bar", people assume "foo-bar", but "foo dash dash dash bar" is p. ridiculous as well.
09:18:12 <Taneb> foo hyphen dash minus bar
09:24:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49805&oldid=49593 * Total Vacuum * (+90)
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09:45:36 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: normally you use accents to distinguish them, don't you?
09:45:54 <lifthrasiir> foo-dash-(accented)-dash-(unaccented)-dash
09:47:02 <lifthrasiir> in terms of relative pitch (1--5), sth like 3-2-5-1-4
09:50:01 <fizzie> It's still a little confusing. Because dash is the default separator and it's a common link, people just use "foo dash" (not "foo dash dash") for foo-dash, so the natural extension would be "foo dash bar" for foo-dash-bar, and indeed that even works most of the time, except when bar happens to be such that foo-bar is also plausible.
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10:56:39 <shachaf> Ah, separating with an unquoted whitespace variable.
10:58:15 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but the hard part was getting such a variable. I tried $(echo;echo) first but that doesn't work, the backtick strips ALL the newlines, not only the last one
11:01:53 <shachaf> But now $ or { is " is going to be banned.
11:02:58 <wob_jonas> this works but I think it isn't POSIX shell: s[0]=;s[1]=;echo${s[*]}"${s[*]}"
11:03:43 <wob_jonas> this I think also isn't POSIX shell: t=$'\x20';echo${t}hello
11:04:05 <wob_jonas> this I think also isn't POSIX shell: t=$'\x20';echo${t}"${t}"
11:06:14 <wob_jonas> This should work too: IFS=Z;t=Z;echo${t}""${t}"
11:07:41 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you can do without double quotes I think
11:08:21 <shachaf> If you're allowing ' and \ you can just do the thing I did above.
11:09:37 <wob_jonas> shachaf: anyway, the braces aren't essential, echo$IFS""$IFS"" works still
11:09:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'm quite sure that's not posix shell. both the triple left angle and the dollar apostrophe are late bash extensions
11:10:17 <wob_jonas> in the sense that I started to program bash back when the triple left angle didn't yet exist
11:10:20 <shachaf> Yes. I was referring to your t=$'... thing.
11:11:11 <wob_jonas> it would be pretty hard without a dollar sign I think
11:11:37 <wob_jonas> maybe you could do some magic with backticks and some suitable program that prints a space, but I don't see how
11:12:27 <myname> my initial attempt was foo=id;echo${foo:...:1}
11:14:08 <myname> for the record, the initial guy gave up because of { being banned made using the space way harder
11:15:23 <wob_jonas> myname: you could make that work like this: t=$(echo|pr);t=${t%%[0-9]*};echo$t""$t""
11:16:08 <wob_jonas> myname: it's possible with id too, but echo|pr is funnier, because then you can write ${t%%1*} and commit a nasty Y2K bug
11:16:47 <wob_jonas> hmm, is pr even in posix? it's an ancient unix utility which doesn't get much use these days, like dc and ul, but I'm not sure it's in posix
11:17:29 <wob_jonas> in any case, you could extract a space from $(date) too, if you cut both the beginning and the end
11:19:07 <wob_jonas> yes, pr is among the POSIX utilities!
11:20:40 <myname> i am a little sad that i didn't found a way to use about:%20
11:21:03 <wob_jonas> and so would a lot of utilities that print at least a space, such as ps, cal, and probably even (nasty) yes&jobs
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11:23:12 <wob_jonas> this would be much easier in the DOS shell by the way, where comma and semicolon and slash also separate arguments, and in some cases dot does too
11:23:25 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials
11:23:45 <wob_jonas> though actually all that stuff wouldn't help you print just a space, because the DOS shell and utilities suck
11:24:18 <myname> and microsoft hasn't learned a thing
11:25:15 <wob_jonas> myname: well, the current shell and utilities is very different
11:25:37 <myname> powershell is more like a replacement for perl
11:26:33 <wob_jonas> powershell is horrible too. they made the same mistakes as in the shell in different ways, but they have no excuse for it that time because they don't have to care for historical compatibility
11:26:49 <wob_jonas> I write simple perl scripts on windows, because that actually works
11:27:14 <wob_jonas> there are some very simple tasks that you can't do with the shell, and you also can't do with perl because windows, but perl gets much closer to it
11:27:27 <wob_jonas> I dunno, I don't use powershell, ask the gurus
11:29:39 <shachaf> oerjan: So that thing is just the chain rule for second derivatives, of course.
11:30:32 <shachaf> But why are there two different dxs?
11:31:57 <shachaf> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=d%5E2(f(g(x)))%2Fdx%5E2
11:32:25 <shachaf> g, g', g'' is always evaluated at x. f', f'' is always evaluated at g(x)
11:32:45 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials
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14:58:21 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2014-01-14 <nooga> echo "no." > wisdom/nooga \ 2013-07-31 <Bike> revert \ 2013-07-31 <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ 2013-03-12 <elliott> revert 2416 \ 2013-03-12 <S
14:59:19 <HackEgo> 2012-02-16 Initial import. \ 2012-04-08 <shachaf> run rm -rf wisdom/* \ 2012-04-08 <shachaf> revert 0 \ 2012-10-06 <FreeFull> run rm -rf wisdom \ 2012-10-06 <oerjan> revert \ 2013-03-02 <olsner> learn nooga hate OS X. NOOGA SMASH. Hug not allowed. \ 2013-03-12 <Sgeo> revert 2243 \ 2013-03-12 <elliott> revert 2416 \ 2013-07-31 <FreeFull> for x in wi
14:59:56 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
15:01:19 <oerjan> the d is for date, the w is for wisdom, and the og is for log hth
15:02:51 <oerjan> and the a is for all, i think, although it's all as opposed to without --removed, so is sort of redundant since that's used for all except the original `hog
15:03:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49809&oldid=49808 * Total Vacuum * (+1) /* goal */
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15:07:44 <HackEgo> dahk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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15:13:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49810&oldid=49809 * Total Vacuum * (-44)
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15:13:51 <HackEgo> 2016-09-25 <fizzie> revert 942e964c81c1 \ 2016-09-25 <evilipse> ` chmod 777 / -R \ 2016-08-22 <tswett> le/rn fish/Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
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16:29:12 <HackEgo> Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
16:29:28 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
16:29:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mklang: not found
16:30:15 <HackEgo> Moon is a murderous lunatic, not an unretroreflectorey object. He sometimes causes overmoonification.
16:41:13 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
16:41:25 <HackEgo> total 18004 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 105 Sep 25 20:32 ` \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 64 Sep 25 20:32 `` \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 17 Sep 25 20:31 ^.^ \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 8 Sep 25 20:31 ̊ \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Sep 25 20:31 \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Sep 25 20:31 ! -> interp \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0
16:41:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooooooodl \ echo hi \ exec \ #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/noooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed
16:50:06 <jeffl35> moonythedwarf: have fun being a lunartic
16:53:36 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ?: No such file or directory
16:53:42 <HackEgo> bin/` \ bin/̊ \ bin/ \ bin/! \ bin/? \ bin/¿ \ bin/' \ bin/" \ bin/@ \ bin/* \ bin/؟ \ bin/ \ bin/ \ bin/1 \ bin/5 \ bin/f \ bin/h \ bin/q
16:54:06 <HackEgo> ` ̊ ! ? ¿ ' " @ * ؟ 1 5 f h q
16:54:21 <HackEgo> ` M-LM-^J ! ? M-BM-? ' " @ * M-XM-^_ ^O ^V 1 5 f h q
16:54:31 <HackEgo> ^O ^V ! " ' * 1 5 ? @ ` f h q
16:54:59 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure how `` ? ends up having the same effect as `?
16:55:03 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
16:55:15 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
16:55:26 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
16:55:43 <HackEgo> ^O ^V ! " ' * 1 5 ? @ ` f h q
16:55:54 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
16:56:07 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
16:56:14 <oerjan> the ? doesn't expand unless it's in a directory with a single-character file.
16:57:01 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: a: command not found
16:57:12 <oerjan> so i was just confused.
16:57:25 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooooooooodl
16:57:46 <wob_jonas> no wait, you used `` that means ? expands to something else
16:58:00 <HackEgo> ` M-LM-^J ! ? M-BM-? ' " @ * M-XM-^_ ^O ^V 1 5 f h q
16:59:16 <\oren\> . o O (bigelow aerospace sounds like a space brothel)
16:59:18 <HackEgo> cat: bin/̐: No such file or directory
16:59:51 <wob_jonas> that's the one you executed, through an extra indirection of bin/`
17:04:52 <^v> @wob_jonas, appears to be pinging me
17:05:25 <^v> hey, on EsperNet my nick is literally "ping"
17:05:29 <^v> im used to it
17:05:32 <wob_jonas> you can try choosing a longer nick.
17:07:21 <oerjan> wob_jonas: no, i did not. ? didn't expand because there's no file in pwd it can expand to.
17:07:43 <oerjan> the contents of bin/ are irrelevant, that's what i was confused about.
17:07:57 <\oren\> My name is rarely pinged, but I have a ping on "font" and "unicode"
17:08:09 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it did expand when you said "`` cd bin; ? test"
17:09:48 <\oren\> Until I was 7 or so, I wasn't sure whether to spell it with a i or an e
17:11:07 <HackEgo> Moon is a murderous lunatic, not an unretroreflectorey object. He sometimes causes overmoonification.
17:11:25 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: i'm pretty sure that information was based on channel evidence at the time.
17:12:42 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
17:13:18 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
17:13:37 <oerjan> jeffl35: it only affects a few words. i tried expanding it once, but that was simply _too_ annoying.
17:13:49 <jeffl35> oerjan: what is it supposed to do?
17:13:56 <HackEgo> Noooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
17:14:50 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
17:14:59 <HackEgo> L is far too short to be a village in Wales.
17:15:23 <HackEgo> cat: ¯\(°_o)/: Is a directory
17:17:35 <oerjan> `learn Man is destined for Greatness, despite being a small island.
17:17:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'man': Man is destined for Greatness, despite being a small island.
17:17:57 <Taneb> As islands go, it's not /tiny/
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17:19:05 <Taneb> It's in the top 500
17:21:07 <oerjan> `learn Man is destined for Greatness, despite being a minor island.
17:21:09 <HackEgo> Relearned 'man': Man is destined for Greatness, despite being a minor island.
17:22:25 <Taneb> Ireland is, relatively speaking, one small step from Man
17:26:46 <HackEgo> noooooo! no i wont do it nooo! | rnoodl
17:26:51 <HackEgo> noooooo! no i wont do it nooo! | rnooodl
17:27:01 <HackEgo> noooooo! no i wont do it nooo!
17:30:55 <jeffl35> `` cat bin/rnooodl | rnooodl
17:30:56 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
17:32:03 <HackEgo> sparta//WE. DON'T. KNOW. ANYTHING. ABOUT. SPARTA!
17:32:14 <HackEgo> pumping lemma//nooooodl's pumping lemma for wisdom entries states that for any sufficiently long valid wisdom entry, there exists a letter that can be repeated any number of times.
17:32:31 <HackEgo> init(1): Operation not permitted \ init(285): Operation not permitted
17:32:39 <HackEgo> deniability//Deniability was not invented by Taneb.
17:32:49 <HackEgo> ehird//ehird is the person who Taneb definitely isn't.
17:32:52 <jeffl35> `` killall -SIGSEGV init && killall -SIGILL init
17:32:53 <HackEgo> init(1): Operation not permitted \ init(285): Operation not permitted
17:32:54 <HackEgo> finn//Finns are helpful, albeit grossly overpopulated (cf. 'Finland').
17:32:59 <HackEgo> people who taneb isn't? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:33:04 <HackEgo> conspirabiology//conspirabiology is where moth colourings form a dot matrix display to send you subliminal messages.
17:33:19 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: init: command not found
17:33:23 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /etc/init: No such file or directory
17:33:29 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /lib/systemd/systemd: No such file or directory
17:33:40 <HackEgo> cooperate//"Cooperate" is a common misspelling of "cōöperāte".
17:33:41 <HackEgo> balrog//Balrogs live at the bottom of the world.
17:33:54 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: telinit: command not found
17:33:54 <HackEgo> ⌨//You are probably using one right now!
17:34:09 <Taneb> `? people who taneb is not
17:34:10 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
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17:34:27 <HackEgo> wealhtheow//Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring party of Beowulf meet at the start of the story.
17:34:40 <HackEgo> The 1 is just for disambiguation.
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17:35:17 <jeffl35> apparently there's a bug in the signal handler in systemd that causes it to not catch a signal when SIGSEGV/SIGILL are sent at almost the same time
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17:36:58 <wob_jonas> ``` cd wisdom;for x in *[tT]aneb*;echo "$x";done
17:36:58 <wob_jonas> ``` cd wisdom;for x in *[tT]aneb*;do echo "$x";done
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17:36:59 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `echo' \ bash: -c: line 0: `cd wisdom;for x in *[tT]aneb*;echo "$x";done'
17:37:00 <HackEgo> fundamental theorem of taneb \ people who taneb is not \ taneb \ tanebvention \ tanebventions: math \ tanebventory
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17:37:27 <wob_jonas> ``` cd wisdom;for x in *[tT]aneb*;do echo "$x";done
17:37:29 <HackEgo> fundamental theorem of taneb \ people who taneb is not \ taneb \ tanebvention \ tanebventions: math \ tanebventory
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17:37:31 <jeffl35> moonythedwarf: probably netsplit
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17:37:37 <jeffl35> unless the kiddies are back at it again
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17:37:39 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
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17:38:28 <izalove> ''In the context of polynomial identity testing, Howard Karloff used the expression "finding a hay in a haystack", referring to the fact that we look for the explicit expression of an element that has a property that is shared by almost every element of a set.''
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17:39:13 <jeffl35> <fnalerts> jeffl35: down: kornbluth, morgan(v6), niven, sinisalo, weber
17:39:28 <wob_jonas> izalove: mind you, a deterministic primality test is like that too
17:39:38 <wob_jonas> since we know a good random primality test
17:39:46 <izalove> primality testing isn't like that
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17:39:59 <izalove> primality testing is checking if what you have is a hay or a needle
17:40:03 <wob_jonas> trying to find a determinized version of any good randomized algorithm is like trying to find a hay in a haystack,
17:40:22 <wob_jonas> since the random algorithm works because the stack has a lot of hay
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17:41:12 <wob_jonas> moonythedwarf: no, it's just coming out of the lake after a swim and shaking itself like a dog. people fall from itself like the water droplets.
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17:43:06 <jeffl35> moonythedwarf: maybe a hub went down
17:43:13 <jeffl35> because otherwise that many servers won't go down at once
17:43:27 <jeffl35> usually it's a *.net *.split not millions of ping timeouts
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17:55:22 <shachaf> oerjan_: No, the a in hoag stood for Jonathan Hoag originally.
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17:55:57 <shachaf> Well, maybe it also stands for all. I wouldn't know.
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18:02:30 <oerjan_> shachaf: no such person tdnh
18:03:02 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unpleasant_Profession_of_Jonathan_Hoag
18:03:06 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Berger_(singer)
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18:03:41 <oerjan_> sorry, there's no such page hth
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18:22:20 <oerjan_> <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan:
18:22:20 <oerjan_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials <-- ooh
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18:23:53 <oerjan_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials <-- ooh
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18:39:06 <\oren\> argh why is my connection dying, i'm in a datacentre in virginia!
18:39:50 <\oren\> (well, my irssi process is. my physical presence still inhabits Toronto)
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18:45:47 <FreeFull_> Physical presences really get in the way of things
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18:56:35 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qo78R_yYFA <--- OMG WTF LOL
18:56:46 <\oren\> Elon Musk is going all in
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19:22:21 <updownleftright> so apparently Google Sheets can be considered Turing complete (you can make all sorts of logic gates in it too)
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19:25:16 <\oren\> I want a spreadsheet program that uses Ncurses instead of a stupid GUI
19:29:03 <FireFly> http://blog.startaylor.net/2016/08/29/sc/
19:30:31 <\oren\> the earliest spreadsheets did that
19:30:31 <\oren\> hmm, let me google that
19:30:33 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1YxNYiyALg
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19:32:01 <FireFly> I don't use it myself, but I've been meaning to learn sc
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19:33:44 * updownleftright wonders how hard making a hq9+ interp in Google Sheets would be
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20:35:11 <olsner> hmm, was it the catamorphism?
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20:40:12 <shachaf> Cale: what do you think of http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1943056/is-a-topology-freely-generated-by-a-subbasis
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20:45:37 <Cale> I think that answer works
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20:48:37 <shachaf> But is that person also implying that the sort of thing I was talking about wouldn't work?
20:51:43 <shachaf> Maybe you can make a free complete Heyting algebra or free frame or something from the poset?
20:51:45 <int-e> err, I mean clog, though glogbot is missing too
20:51:49 <\oren\_> youtube is glitching out for me
20:52:10 <\oren\_> All the videos where anyone is speaking have the voices replaced with warpling
20:52:14 <shachaf> Cale: Also I'm a bit surprised that it's a right adjoint.
20:52:19 <shachaf> Why should I have expected that?
20:53:03 <izalove> http://hextris.io/ this is so coool
20:55:37 <\oren\_> actually it seems to only be affecting any video that was originally posted as a stream
20:55:45 <shachaf> Oh, the pieces just have to touch.
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20:55:51 <shachaf> I thought they had to be on the same "level".
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21:09:37 <izalove> are you playing on a phone?
21:10:09 <izalove> my first try was with my phone and screen rotation was on
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23:09:02 -!- boily has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
23:10:15 <boily> . o O ( The Everchanging Toooopiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiic ♪ )
23:11:51 -!- ais523 has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | this counter has been incremented 0 times | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
23:12:03 -!- ais523 has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | this counter has been incremented 1 time | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
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23:14:04 <ais523> with the help of self-fulfilling counter technology, now we can change the topic as much as we like
23:14:13 <ais523> (or, well, until the number gets large enough that it doesn't fit)
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23:39:13 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be thinking about string division... for some reason...
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23:41:27 <hppavilion[1]> The quotient s/t of two strings s, t (where tally(t) <= tally(s) keywise (and for a string s (different from the s in the outer scope), tally(s) is a map from singleton strings to is equal to any
23:42:52 <boily> hppavellon[1]. would you please not pull a fungot and balance your parentheses hth
23:42:52 <hppavilion[1]> tally(s) for a string s is a dictionary (or hashmap, or associative array, or whatever you want to call it) from characters c to positive integers, where tally(s)_c is the number of occurrences of c in the string
23:44:53 <hppavilion[1]> So e.g. tally('I am Santa, lord of dankness') = {'a' -> 4, 'd' -> 1, 'e' -> 1, ...}
23:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> Applying a function f (or operation, or relation, or whatever) with arity of n to n dictionaries d1, d2, ..., dn is the same as the dictionary D with keys of the union of the sets of keys of d1..n, where D_k = f(d1_k, d2_k, ..., dn_k)
23:49:16 <hppavilion[1]> If a key does not appear in one of the inputs, the value is... OK, it varies by context. Just state what the default is when you say you're taking it keywise
23:50:47 <hppavilion[1]> So keywise (default 0.8) {'a' -> 1, 'b' -> 2, 'c' -> 3}+{'a' -> 4, 'c' -> 92} is equal to {'a' -> 5, 'b' -> 2.8, 'c' -> 95}
23:51:26 <boily> everything's peachy so far.
23:53:32 <hppavilion[1]> So the quotient s/t of two strings s, t where tally(t) <= tally(s) keywise (default 0) is pretty much any string that can be generated by deleting k of each character in t (where k is the number of times that the character appears) from s
23:54:46 <hppavilion[1]> (| is essentially kleene +, but more familiar a notation)
23:55:19 <boily> is shuffling permitted?
23:56:52 <hppavilion[1]> If t contains any characters s doesn't (or contains more of any character than t), you're pretty much done (this, of course, makes single characters the prime numbers of strings- which seems pretty obvious in retrospect)
23:57:13 <boily> if two deletion passes result in the same end string, do you merge them together or do you count all copies as separate results?
23:57:49 <hppavilion[1]> So 'aabcd'/'a' is just 'abcd', even though you can obtain it by deleting either 'a'
23:58:43 <hppavilion[1]> You can talk about different types of quotient of a string too, which are always a proper subset of all quotients
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00:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> The Principal Quotient Distance of two strings s and t is the minimum number of steps it requires to turn s into t using only insertions of a contiguous block of characters and deletions of contiguous blocks of characters (so 'abcdefg' and 'abfg' have a distance of 1, as you delete the characters 2..4)
00:04:00 <hppavilion[1]> The principal quotients of s and t (s/t) are the strings that have the smallest Principal Quotient Distance from the original string (that is, they all have the same distance)
00:05:25 <hppavilion[1]> So while 'acdabd' is a quotient of 'abcdabcd' and 'bc' ('abcdabcd'/'bc'), it is not a principal quotient because it requires 2 steps (delete the first 'b' and second 'c') while 'adabcd' and 'abcdad' only require 1
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00:30:12 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to have created a rudimentary encoding that gives a unique name to each edit distance function
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00:36:05 <boily> hppavilion[1]: it makes sense.
00:36:18 * boily was momentarily distracted by a kimchi howto video >_>'...
00:43:16 <hppavilion[1]> (case aims to be significant, but isn't necessarily- usually, uppercase is the same as lowercase, but for substrings instead of single characters)
00:46:34 <hppavilion[1]> (these examples are yet to show the weighting option, but there is one)
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01:24:36 <izalove> yo momma is so fat she was reincarnated as 2 people
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02:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> (With trico(n, k) presumably being equal to the coefficient of the term x^k in (x^2+x+1)^n, or something like that)
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02:13:11 <hppavilion[1]> Is there anything above uncountable? A set is uncountable if there is no way to inject it into the naturals
02:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> The reals are the simplest uncountable set (well, by "simplest" I mean "the one I know"), but is it possible to have a set that cannot be injected into the reals?
02:18:09 <izalove> the sets of all sets of real numbers
02:18:19 <izalove> the set of all sets of real numbers
02:20:16 <izalove> for any set S, the set of all the subsets of S is larger than S
02:29:51 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Are you sure that that's true of infinite sets?
02:30:05 <izalove> yes, it's cantor's theorem
02:40:37 <hppavilion[1]> (it would only be possible if there are 3 statements a, b, c where a↯b, b↯c, and a↯c (where ↯ is the contradiction conjunction, which could probably just be xor in retrospect))
02:40:56 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm sure there's a way to do this using ->, but I don't feel like finding it)
02:49:43 <quintopia> @tell boily POSTCARD GET. I shall resend this package ASAP--you better pick it up this time!
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03:26:19 <HackEgo> factor: invalid option -- '7' \ Try `factor --help' for more information.
03:26:32 <HackEgo> factor: unrecognized option '-- -7' \ Try `factor --help' for more information.
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03:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> NASA changed the zodiac (or, more accurately, they accounted for shifts in the earth that we hadn't used yet)
03:45:46 <hppavilion[1]> There's a thirteenth sign now- Ophiuchus- and I'm apparently that
03:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> Yay! I fall under a different bullshittial classification from before!
03:46:52 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I honestly don't know what that means
03:47:23 <lifthrasiir> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox_(celestial_coordinates)
03:47:56 <ais523> does the discovery of the thirteenth sign of the zodiac fall under both types of esoteric at once?
03:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> (I could also be Scorpio; I'm not really clear on what's inclusive and what's exclusive)
03:49:14 <lifthrasiir> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Constellations_ecliptic_equirectangular_plot.svg
03:50:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus#Ophiuchus_and_the_zodiac
03:50:22 <hppavilion[1]> (My birthday is on 11-29, which is the turnover from Scorpio to Ophiuchus)
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04:07:45 <hppavilion[1]> Start with a set of basic assumptions and all astrology is mathematically derived from there
04:23:46 <ais523> I'm vaguely thinking of something that changes the number of degrees in a circle over time to allow for the changes in the Earth's orbit
04:23:59 <ais523> maybe we should define the number of degrees in a full circle to be equal to the number of days in a year
04:24:13 <ais523> and assert, without proof, that it was originally exactly 360
04:24:31 <hppavilion[1]> And 2.0952939852239147 is the metagolden mean (the golden mean-th metallic mean)
04:24:36 <ais523> thus requiring occasional "leap degrees"
04:25:55 <ais523> we should probably be using sidereal days rather than solar days, come to think of it
04:26:12 <ais523> more appropriate for astrology /and also/ harder to understand
04:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> (so (((1+sqrt(5))/2)+sqrt(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**2+4))/2)
04:31:22 <ais523> heh, there's also such a thing as anti-sidereal time
04:31:55 <ais523> unlike sidereal time, which is designed to be appropriate for astronomy
04:32:16 <ais523> anti-sidereal time is explicitly intended to be arbitrary and not match any natural astronomical cycles
04:55:47 <\oren\> is may 10th still a Tauros?
04:57:02 <\oren\> what calendar will Elon Musk's colonists use?
04:58:52 <ais523> \oren\: darian calendar, probably?
05:06:57 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to become a weather geek, just for http://xkcd.com/1324/
05:08:17 <lambdabot> PAMR 280353Z 28004KT 10SM CLR 09/01 A3023 RMK AO2 SLP238 T00940006
05:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> I assume @metar gives it in the international format rather than North American?
05:15:04 <hppavilion[1]> Or would a North American airport give North American metars?
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06:32:15 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm wondering when D-modules enter into all this.
06:32:24 <shachaf> Taneb can probably help me out.
06:32:51 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you like derivatives?
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07:19:26 <shachaf> oerjan, Cale: Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi-Civita_symbol is what I want.
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08:38:00 <izalove> is there a way to force linux to swap stuff out to disk and free X bytes of ram?
08:39:33 <shachaf> You can swapoff completely.
08:39:49 <shachaf> And maybe lifthrasiir misread too.
08:41:08 <izalove> because i may need to run something that must actually stay in ram and firefox isn't as important
08:41:41 <lifthrasiir> izalove: cause thrashing then drop that process?
08:41:43 <shachaf> And the normal heuristics aren't good enough?
08:42:05 <fizzie> izalove: ptrace the process you care about, run a mlockall in it.
08:42:09 <lifthrasiir> in the extreme case where one process is filling the memory up it should move almost everything else into the disk
08:42:11 <shachaf> You can have a process mlock its memory if you want to be sure it's in RAM.
08:42:53 <shachaf> Another thing you can do is get more RAM. RAM is so cheap.
08:43:27 <shachaf> Even without mlock I assume that if a process just prefaults its pages, it won't do too badly for many workloads.
08:43:48 <Taneb> shachaf, I have not derivatived for many years
08:44:05 <shachaf> Maybe MAP_POPULATE does that?
08:45:13 <shachaf> Not sure whether that works.
08:45:50 <shachaf> https://github.com/aclements/thesis/blob/master/bench/mcorelib/block.c does it, at least.
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08:49:59 <izalove> mlockall with MCL_ONFAULT looks great
08:51:40 <fizzie> It's the "Hotel California" option.
08:52:00 <fizzie> You can fault in any time you like, but you can never page out.
08:52:35 <shachaf> fizzie: i see a hotel california in your future hth
08:53:11 <fizzie> I booked one of our corporate apartments for that, it's not a hotel.
08:53:38 <shachaf> A hotel would be a prodorate apartment, I guess.
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09:06:53 <HackEgo> ㄱㄲㄳㄴㄵㄶㄷㄸㄹㄺㄻㄼㄽㄾㄿ \ ㅀㅁㅂㅃㅄㅅㅆㅇㅈㅉㅊㅋㅌㅍㅎㅏ \ ㅐㅑㅒㅓㅔㅕㅖㅗㅘㅙㅚㅛㅜㅝㅞㅟ \ ㅠㅡㅢㅣ
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11:56:05 <HackEgo> pawn//*YOU* are a pawn. *MWAHAHAHAHA*
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11:59:51 <lambdabot> quintopia said 9h 10m 7s ago: POSTCARD GET. I shall resend this package ASAP--you better pick it up this time!
12:00:18 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAA! THE POSTCARD ARRIVED! (Didn't get mine yet though...)
12:00:53 <boily> @tell quintopia (Which is to be expected. I live in a postal blackhole, right in the middle of a ~4 million people metropolitan area.)
12:10:48 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/pawn
12:11:31 <boily> @ask evilipse hellipse. who are you? are you as evil as you claim to be?
12:11:47 <int-e> hmm, pawn on the 8th rank
12:14:11 <HackEgo> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
12:18:49 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
12:19:17 -!- boily has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | This counter has been incremented twice | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
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12:23:45 <HackEgo> *YOU* are a pawn. *MWAHAHAHAHA*
12:55:47 <Taneb> int-e, get to the other side of the board and we'll talk
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14:50:21 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinomial_theorem#Multinomial_coefficients
14:56:30 <HackEgo> factor: `-7' is not a valid positive integer
14:59:54 * oerjan chases moonythedwarf off his lawn
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15:29:07 <FireFly> dwarven cows in new york? that's silly
15:30:53 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
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16:00:19 * oerjan applies his saucepan ===\__/
16:01:03 <moonythedwarf> -js console.log("anyways, can anyone break out of this sandbox? (:")
16:01:14 -!- otherbot has joined.
16:01:18 <moonythedwarf> -js console.log("anyways, can anyone break out of this sandbox? (:")
16:01:18 <otherbot> anyways, can anyone break out of this sandbox? (: |
16:01:45 <oerjan> this is a good time to not know javascript.
16:17:58 <otherbot> { [SyntaxError: Unexpected end of input] global: '[Circular]' }
16:20:52 <otherbot> [object global] | {obuf: , console: [object Object], util: [object Object], global: [Cyclic object], process: [object Object], } |
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17:05:02 <jeffl35> ...................................................................................................................................
17:06:00 * moonythedwarf is already conteplating adding Underload to otherbot
17:06:08 <ais523> `! underload ((.)S:^):^
17:06:09 <HackEgo> ...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
17:10:43 -!- otherbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:11:08 <ais523> moonythedwarf: there's an infinite loop in the program
17:11:20 -!- wanderman has joined.
17:11:21 <ais523> so you'll need cutoffs for programs using infinite CPU/memory/stack
17:11:41 <ais523> moonythedwarf: you can write a program like this though
17:11:49 -!- wanderman has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
17:12:16 <ais523> `! underload (-)(~:S(|)S:*~:^):^
17:12:17 <HackEgo> -|--|----|--------|----------------|--------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17:12:22 -!- otherbot has joined.
17:12:24 <ais523> that's evaluating powers of 2
17:12:43 <ais523> and thus can use huge amounts of memory in a very short amount of time
17:12:58 <otherbot> jeffl35: echo ping pong eval flushq help list use store cash inv savecstate buy sell give kick ban unban op deop mode attack poke join part reload whois nick pyc pad pyr giac befr padclr lolr ><>r js rsc ul
17:13:10 <otherbot> jeffl35: Run programs written in Underload
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17:18:49 <jeffl35> Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init!
17:18:58 -!- wanderman has joined.
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17:19:38 <ais523> I assume that was in a vm?
17:19:46 <ais523> that sort of kernel panic normally is fairly fatal to IRC connections
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17:27:27 <jeffl35> # killall -SIGILL init & killall -SIGSEGV init
17:27:40 <jeffl35> rather interesting bug in systemd
17:27:51 <jeffl35> causes systemd to die and the system to crash
17:30:09 <HackEgo> init(1): Operation not permitted \ init(285): Operation not permitted
17:30:27 <moonythedwarf> doesnt seem to do anything to Hackego's older software, so its a newer bug
17:32:16 <jeffl35> moonythedwarf: has to be root
17:32:24 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 36992 Jul 14 2013 /sbin/init
17:32:36 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /etc/systemd: No such file or directory
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18:05:12 <quintopia> @tell boily reminder that i'll be at niagara in a week and a half.
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18:05:54 <lambdabot> PAMR 281653Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 01/M03 A3035 RMK AO2 SLP280 T00111028
18:09:07 <fizzie> jeffl35: The HackEgo init process is actually https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox/src/tip/init.c
18:09:16 <fizzie> And is completely unrelated to whatever is visible at /sbin/init.
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18:10:44 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56S4_V3GJQ
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18:22:15 <HackEgo> irctc201: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:23:04 <irctc201> how does this work? first timer
18:23:44 <shachaf> It sounds like you've already figured out how it works.
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18:25:27 <HackEgo> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
18:25:56 <shachaf> I thought a histogram was a message sent backward in time.
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18:59:42 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] } }
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19:35:55 <ais523> -js var x; while (1) { x = [x] }
19:35:56 <otherbot> { [Error: Script execution timed out.] global: '[Circular]' }
19:36:06 <ais523> that's a very short timeout
19:39:43 <ais523> -js var x="a"; while(1) { x = x + x }
19:39:43 <otherbot> { [RangeError: Invalid string length] global: '[Circular]' }
19:41:59 <ais523> -js function x() { x(); x(); } x()
19:41:59 <otherbot> { [RangeError: Maximum call stack size exceeded] global: '[Circular]' }
19:42:16 <ais523> OK, it looks like there are limits on many of the common tricks used to blow up memory
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19:53:32 * moonythedwarf wonders if ais523 will come up with a exploit for it
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20:11:27 <ais523> moonythedwarf: I don't know enough JavaScript really
20:13:05 <shachaf> ais523: Did you ever write up the rules to your game?
20:13:15 <shachaf> I think you were planning to do it once.
20:13:16 <ais523> shachaf: I started a writeup
20:13:23 <ais523> but there are still some things I'm unsure about
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20:46:43 <wob_jonas> Apparently "finale" is pronounced /"fIn@li:/. I don't understand how English spelling works.
20:49:31 <ais523> the "a" in "finale" is definitely an "ar" sound even though that's inconsistent with every other spelling rule I know
20:53:54 <wob_jonas> the dictionary says /fI"na:li/ (Br), /fI"n{li/ (Am)
20:55:15 <wob_jonas> where /i/ in this dictionary is an abbreviation meaning it's pronounced as either /i:/ or /I/ depending on the dialect
20:56:01 <wob_jonas> so it doesn't make much sense to use it when there are separate british and american pronunciations give, but that's still what the dictionary says
20:56:34 <int-e> The spelling is largely independent from the pronunciation, at least as far as vowels are concerned.
20:56:37 <wob_jonas> at least if the stress is on the second syllable, that explains why the first syllable has /I/
20:56:56 <wob_jonas> let me check if my Oxford dict gives a pronunciation
20:57:16 <ais523> Bowserinator: here we mostly laugh at English rather than trying to justify it :-)
20:57:18 <wob_jonas> Bowserinator: nah, that channel rarely talks about English
20:57:24 <int-e> Actually, is English a stressful language? :-P
20:57:54 <wob_jonas> int-e: they told me it is supposed to be one
20:58:02 <Bowserinator> english speakers are lazy, you don't need to move your mouth that much
20:58:12 <Bowserinator> although for some reason if you're slightly off they won't understand you.
20:59:34 <ais523> int-e: there are a few places in English where the meaning of a word changes depending on stress
20:59:50 <ais523> although it's hard to construct a sentence in which both meanings work
20:59:55 <wob_jonas> the oxford dictionary says /fI"nA:li/ or /fI"nA:leI/ which is strange
21:00:22 <Taneb> ais523, iirc in those situations, a stress on the last syllable is a verb, on the first syllable a noun
21:00:27 <Taneb> wob_jonas, as a noun it means trash
21:00:32 <ais523> that's why it's hard to work it into a sentence
21:00:38 <wob_jonas> Taneb: right, but how does the stress change?
21:01:00 <wob_jonas> I know there are a few words where the stress changes
21:01:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: REF-yuse is the noun, ree-FYUSE is the verb
21:01:11 <wob_jonas> but I didn't know "refuse" is one of them
21:01:27 <ais523> strangely enough, the first e is short when stressed and long when nonstressed
21:02:31 * moonythedwarf is making a gravity based 2d esolang that, if minimized, is reversable
21:02:36 <ais523> I guess "to refuse" could mean "to replace the fuse in"
21:02:47 <ais523> moonythedwarf: is it uncomputable?
21:02:59 <APic> ais523: That would fit.
21:03:07 <Taneb> ais523, it's said that the easiest way to tell the difference between a plumber and a scientist is to ask them to pronounce unionise
21:03:35 <ais523> but the scientists more commonly use "deionise" I think, unless both words exist with different meanings
21:03:52 <Taneb> Possibly it was "unionised"
21:04:04 <ais523> besides, the stress is in the same place in both words
21:04:08 <ais523> just the syllable boundaries are different
21:04:14 * APic thought of „unionized“ first.
21:04:34 <ais523> un-i - on -ise versus un - i-on - ise
21:04:43 <ais523> actually the syllable boundaries are the same too, but the syllable /spacing/ is different?
21:04:49 <wob_jonas> it says "refuse" as a verb is /rI"fju:z/, which is how I'd pronounce it too, and "refuse" as a noun is /"rEfju:s/. it's strange that they differ; either pronunciation would make sense separately, but together they don't.
21:04:49 <ais523> what sort of language is this?!
21:05:06 <APic> ,o0(Ion Laser)
21:05:39 <int-e> wob_jonas: how do you pronounce infinite and finite?
21:05:42 <APic> Strangely my Dictionaries only have that one in English-Croatian FreeDict
21:05:52 <APic> Not in the other English-Foo-Dictionaries i have installed
21:05:57 <Taneb> int-e, I pronounce finite deliberately incorrectly
21:06:05 <wob_jonas> it's on my list, together with cycle - bicycle, and sign - signal
21:06:39 <Taneb> (definite and infinite rhyme, finite rhymes with I knight)
21:06:46 <ais523> Taneb: how? do you change both syllables to match "infinite" or just one of them, and if so which?
21:07:03 <Taneb> ais523, to match infinite
21:07:22 <wob_jonas> so "finite" is /"faI.naIt/ and "infinite" is /"InfInIt/ or /"InfIn@t/ I think
21:07:31 <ais523> Taneb: also definite and infinite don't rhyme, it's a tertiary rhyme so you need to match the last two syllables and the vowel and trailing consonants of the third-last
21:07:43 <ais523> whereas the vowel in the third-last syllable doesn't match there
21:07:48 <ais523> they are pretty lose though
21:07:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: "unionise" is four syllables? I'd have said it as three syllables
21:07:55 <Taneb> ...I would use them in a poem
21:08:24 <ais523> wob_jonas: the "io" is kind-of dubious as a dipthong
21:08:44 <ais523> you can try to pronounce it as one but the syllable gap's audible pretty much however fast you try
21:09:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, there's no diphtong because I pronunce it with a /nj/ consonant
21:09:18 <Taneb> ais523, I sometimes pronounce the plumber's way was yoonyunise
21:09:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: isn't that English "ng"? or am I confusing it with something else?
21:09:48 <ais523> "ungeonise" isn't how the word's pronounced at all
21:10:03 <APic> In German i would separate „unionize“ as „un-i-o-nize“ probably ;=P
21:10:05 <Taneb> ais523, phonetic j is a consonant y I think
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21:10:37 <ais523> Taneb: "ny" isn't possible without a syllable boundary in English I think
21:10:54 <Taneb> ais523, that might depend on your dialect
21:10:58 <ais523> it's possible in Russian (e.g. "nyet"), but I don't think we use that sound in English
21:11:18 <ais523> int-e: actually, I'll buy that
21:11:24 <ais523> not quite identical but close enough
21:11:27 <APic> It would actually be interesting to let a Program create the german Separation for „unionize“
21:11:28 <ais523> can you do it at the end of a syllable?
21:11:47 <ais523> I'm wondering if "new" has the y sound at the start of the vowel rather than the end of the consonant
21:12:03 <ais523> I mean, "ew" has a y sound too
21:12:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think it's "ng", but maybe. /nj/ is actually /J/ or /ɲ/, a palatal nasal. some English speakers (including me) pronunce it in "new" and "news"
21:12:14 <ais523> which implies that it's part of the vowel
21:12:27 <wob_jonas> though more than half of the English speakers pronounce "new" with just an /n/ instead
21:12:32 <ais523> "ewe" and "you" famously have the same pronunciation
21:12:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: I think I pronounce "new" as "n" followed by "you"
21:12:51 <int-e> I'd suggest nuclear, but that would only make matters worse.
21:13:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: how do you pronounce "during"?
21:13:21 <Taneb> ais523, ...my mouth feels different saying ewe and you but they sound the same
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21:13:38 <wob_jonas> I think there's another word with "n" too, but I can't remember
21:13:52 <ais523> wob_jonas: "during" has a dipthong or maybe tripthong on the u for me
21:14:32 <ais523> "revenue" ends in "new" for me
21:14:56 <wob_jonas> yes, I expect "revenue" to end in "new" for most people
21:15:50 <Taneb> ais523, I either pronounce during like you do or with a like dj consonant at the beginning and just a oo-ur or maybe just an ur
21:16:18 <Taneb> (I have a bizarre accent at times)
21:16:32 <ais523> actually, I think I've come to a conclusion: consonant y doesn't exist in my accent
21:16:42 * APic is installing „texlive“
21:16:45 <ais523> it's just a different vowel from vowel y (which is a long i in most accents)
21:16:45 <Taneb> (I blame my Dutch Australian/not quite Geordie heritage)
21:17:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: can't we say it's a semi-vowel or glide?
21:17:54 <ais523> it's notably different from semi-vowels like l or n though
21:17:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: so you don't pronounce a consonant in "your" or "yes" or "York" or "yawn"?
21:18:25 <wob_jonas> wait, how do they spell "mayonaise" in English?
21:18:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: all of those are vowel transitions
21:18:31 <ais523> mayonnaise I think, not sure though
21:18:49 <wob_jonas> and it doesn't even have a y sound in it
21:20:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: anyway, I think it is possible for an English dialect to actually not have a y consonant, only a semi-vowel
21:20:52 <ais523> a semivowel is something that you can hold indefinitely despite not being a traditional vowel
21:21:06 * APic is installing texlive-lang-german
21:21:11 <APic> That one took me long to figure out ☺
21:21:12 <ais523> I don't think you can hold a consonantal-y
21:22:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, a semivowel is a vowel that doesn't make a whole syllable, but is next to a vowel and forms a glide with it. if you hold the same sound long, then it's not a semi-vowel, but a vowel. that's not a problem, many words can be pronounced either with a vowel or a semi-vowel.
21:23:11 <ais523> so how would you react to nonwords like "plllfft" which are pronounceable despite not having any vowels?
21:23:29 <ais523> English tends not to use such words but that's not for any particular reason AFAIK
21:24:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know, because I don't speak czech, so I can't pronounce those.
21:24:37 <wob_jonas> but they say that in some languages, the "r" and the "l" can be syllable nucleuses, and that in some English dialects too
21:24:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's simply a physical matter of pronounciation mechanics, not a dialect thing
21:25:02 <ais523> it's physically possible to prolong an l or an f indefinitely
21:25:05 <ais523> like it is with vowels
21:25:09 <ais523> just the letters aren't normally used like that
21:25:27 <ais523> there are a few English words that use the principle, but mostly onomatopoeia like "mmm"
21:25:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: it is a dialect thing, because I don't pronunce it in any English word, but some people do in some English words
21:26:02 <wob_jonas> so I don't see why it wouldn't be a dialect thing
21:26:27 <wob_jonas> some languages require that in some words, namely at least croatian and czech, both of which are infamous of vowel-less tongue-twisters
21:26:29 <APic> But what do i expect using a Hyphenator for the wrong Language? ☺
21:26:54 <wob_jonas> APic: that hyphenation does look right
21:27:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's merely a fact of the phoneme in question
21:27:03 <ais523> that it can be prolonged
21:27:11 <ais523> this is independent of what words it does or doesn't appear in
21:29:16 <ais523> I'm not sure if I'd feel comfortable hyphenating the plumber version of that word anywhere
21:29:30 <ais523> (the scientist version hyphenates quite neatly after un-)
21:29:42 <Taneb> If I was going to hyphenate the plumber version it'd have to be union-ize
21:30:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: plumber is "unionize" as in "create au nion"
21:31:21 <ais523> scientist is "un-ionize" as in "remove ions from" (although "deionize", "reduce ions in", is more idiomatic, probably because you can't physically get all of them)
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21:31:58 <wob_jonas> so by scientist one, you mean the chemical science one, not the mathematics one
21:32:56 <ais523> no surprises if you can pronounce "ion" and "union"
21:34:41 <wob_jonas> well, I said the "plumbers'" one is /"jU,nj@,naIz/, but that's probably wrong, it is more likely /"ju:,nj@,naIz/ (I'll check the dictionary later),
21:35:25 <wob_jonas> and iirc "ion" is pronounced as /"ai,@n/, like iron, but I could be wrong, so it would be /Vn,"ai,@,naIz/
21:38:30 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if the /I@/ is meant to be the "here" diphtongue or two syllables in that
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21:38:59 <wob_jonas> probably two syllables, because it gives "u-ni-on-ize" as the syllables in the spelling
21:39:40 <wob_jonas> I wish oh well, not much difference between those
21:41:58 <wob_jonas> the Oxford gives no pronunciation, and has only the plumber meaning too
21:44:10 <wob_jonas> and yes, ion is pronounced as /"aI,@n/, I remembered right
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22:05:58 <hppavilion[1]> Well, 5 stages of grief are kicking in. Now seems like a good time to study them.
22:06:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 15m 43s ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinomial_theorem#Multinomial_coefficients
22:22:52 <otherbot> Argument expected for the '-c' option | usage: /bin/pypy-c [options] | Try `/bin/pypy-c -h` for more information. | [Subprocess exit code: 2] |
22:23:14 * moonythedwarf curses the enter bar for being too close to a diffrent character
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23:18:53 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] } }
23:42:11 <hppavilion[1]> One of my teaqers from last year died yesterday...
23:46:23 <hppavilion[1]> Ʃe was very nice, ðe kind of person who'd acknowledge my terrible jokes and was very accommodatiŋ when I broke ðe unspoken rules (e.g. "Don't interrupt people")... ʃe was ðe one who used segments from What If? as homework...
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23:55:15 <hppavilion[1]> moonythedwarf_: I fall back on my crazy bonus letter alphabet occasionally. I have to consciously tell myself to type with normal english on #esoteric
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00:00:12 <oerjan> i mean, yeppavilion[1]
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00:14:00 <izalove> has anyone found flaws in pcg random? http://www.pcg-random.org
00:27:07 <hppavilion[1]> "You don't need an infinite number of monkeys to produce the works of Shakespeare; 2^524288 is ample."
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00:49:22 <hppavilion[1]> If we use the system SI+¤, where ¤ is defined as the value of one gram of gold- currently USD 42.42291 (calculated as cost of 1 kg/100) (eq. EUR 37.92), what are the interpretations of powers of ¤?
01:06:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ¤² would be the unit for evil hth
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01:09:22 <hppavilion[1]> (#esoteric-style SI uses the base units Metre (m), Gram (g), Second (s), Ampere (A), Kelvin (K), Candela (cd), Mole (mol), Currency (u), and Shachafs (sh))
01:11:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, you have the capitalization backwards, it should be shachaf (Sh)
01:12:00 <oerjan> fully written SI units are never capitalized
01:12:30 <oerjan> and the abbreviation gets capitalized if it's from a person.
01:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But what's the rule if it's a person whose name isn't capitalized?
01:13:13 <oerjan> we'll nuke that bridge when we come to it
01:14:04 <oerjan> pretty sure shachaf (huh, he's not here) capitalizes his name outside irc
01:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Capitalizes 'shachaf' or his irl name? Or is he named 'Shachaf' (or something closely related) IRL?
01:14:52 <oerjan> although it's also rather unusual for a unit to be from the first name...
01:16:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: There were 3 options. Which is the latter?
01:17:02 <hppavilion[1]> (I guess latter COULD work with arbitrarily many options, always meaning the last one? And if there's only one option, the latter is the same as the former)
01:18:04 <hppavilion[1]> So I guess it'd either be Sh or S (probably not S because sieverts)
01:18:39 <oerjan> he's named Shachaf hth
01:20:50 <hppavilion[1]> 'Shahaf' is a Hebrew given name. Apparently related to "seagull"
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01:28:58 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well it's the same in hebrew. the transliteration may differ.
01:38:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: in modern israeli hebrew, it's pronounced like the german ch, but it used to be closer to (but not the same as) h, and still is in a few dialects. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heth#Hebrew_.E1.B8.A4et
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05:13:54 <\oren\> It might seem unethical to win world war II by advancing across europe under cover of a nuclear bombing every 7 days, but hey, I'm sure hitler has done something worse
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06:23:34 <hppavilion[1]> What are the traditional someone-died-and-we're-all-very-sad songs?
06:24:49 <hppavilion[1]> The only properly-traditional one I know is Auld Lang Syne, though Days Gone Bye (the Pony version designed so small children aren't confused) could count
06:25:00 <hppavilion[1]> And Long Live the Queen by Frank Turner SHOULD be traditional...
06:25:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | This counter has been incremented pice | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
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07:42:22 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, the Hedgehog was only domesticated in the 1980s
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08:00:39 <Taneb> \oren\, have you been playing hearts of iron
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08:28:27 <hppavilion[1]> There's something wrong with http://suprah2.com/about-us
08:29:32 <Hoolootwo> I'm pretty sure that there's at least one fact there
08:30:56 <Hoolootwo> I read it again and I'm not so sure about there being a single fact
08:38:47 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], doubling the hydrogen is probably safer than doubling the oxygen
08:39:36 <Hoolootwo> I'm not sure what H4O would do, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be pretty
08:39:58 <Taneb> Hoolootwo, I'm not sure it's physically possible
08:42:01 <Hoolootwo> yeah, pretty sure it isn't, and if it is, it's some crazy intermediate
08:44:45 <Taneb> But if you double the oxygen in each molecule, you're not going to have a very fun time drinking it
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10:19:30 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently Japanese games used to tell you characters' blood types because (some of) the Japanese believe that determines personality
10:22:33 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], it's certainly a lot less illogical than astrology
10:24:16 <Hoolootwo> well, it can affect your chances of getting/having/not dying from certain diseases
10:24:29 <Hoolootwo> but that's a far cry from personalites
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10:34:43 <Taneb> Hoolootwo, an awful lot closer than rocks millions of miles away
10:34:47 <Taneb> But yes, it's still a bit odd
10:46:35 <lifthrasiir> Hoolootwo: if some comics or so introduce a fictitious discovery that _does_ prove some linkage between blood types and personality, then I would say it is reasonable :p
10:48:42 <myname> i'd say it is as popular as that birthday bullshit
10:49:46 <myname> no, the belief that the date of birth somehiw determines your character
10:51:08 <Hoolootwo> it's almost imaginable that the season in which you were born could determine how you were brought up in the first few months, but really, it doesn't matter that much
10:52:08 <lifthrasiir> Hoolootwo: I've heard that there indeed is a correlation, but to be frank it's mostly a problem of the inflexible education schedule
10:54:36 <Hoolootwo> yeah, at least in my school there were people about 10 to 12 months apart in the same grade, which could definitely cause differences
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11:20:28 <wob_jonas> lifthrasiir: the blood type thing was the latest fad for a few years in Europe too. in fact, I assumed it came from Europe.
11:21:16 <wob_jonas> Mind you, I don't really understand how they work, because most people don't even know what their blood type is until they donate blood or have a serious surgery.
11:21:31 <lifthrasiir> wob_jonas: do not underestimate the role of Japan in the world of superstitions...
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11:24:03 <wob_jonas> ah, from an internet search, apparently there might be two different blood type superstitons, a western one and a Japanese one, although they could eventually relate
11:24:23 <wob_jonas> as for magical water, there are lots of different ones sold here.
11:27:43 <wob_jonas> mineral water with various compositions, stinky sulphur water from hot springs, acidic drinking water, water with supposedly reduced deuterium content, pí-víz (whatever that means), ordinary tap water bottled under fancy expensive names, ordinary water for homeopathy in tiny glass jars,
11:28:10 <wob_jonas> oh, and various magical water filters for filtering tap water at your home too
11:29:22 <wob_jonas> oh, and these tap machines that give you water from a 50 liter water bulb brought there the dirty way with trucks instead of through pipes
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11:38:45 <myname> https://youtu.be/xP5-iIeKXE8 so meta
11:39:45 <lifthrasiir> myname: so when would there be a self-populating metapixel in life? :)
11:43:29 <boily> @ask hppavilion[1] pice?
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12:03:04 <lambdabot> quintopia said 17h 57m 51s ago: reminder that i'll be at niagara in a week and a half.
12:03:06 <HackEgo> numbers//Numbers: 0, 848, 1344, 1696, 1969, 2192, _, 2544, 2688, 2817, _, 3040, _, _, 3313, 3392, ...
12:03:39 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/numbers
12:30:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Manufactoria]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49811&oldid=39424 * Martin Ender * (+18)
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12:48:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Simplefunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49812&oldid=41458 * Martin Ender * (+25)
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15:14:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | This counter has been incremented bleence | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
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15:28:45 <moonythedwarf> i made hello world in a esolang im working on, just for proof of concept
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15:35:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Moon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49813 * Moon * (+15) Created page with "This is my page"
15:36:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49814 * Moon * (+91) Created page with "'''Gravbox''' is a 2 dimensional esolang with a concept of gravity created by [[User:Moon]]"
15:36:22 <oerjan> <Taneb> But if you double the oxygen in each molecule, you're not going to have a very fun time drinking it <-- i have this vague memory of using H2O2 for some medical purpose once. Possibly it was for my teeth.
15:36:42 <oerjan> it's a pretty good disinfectant, i think.
15:39:20 <oerjan> or perhaps was for cleaning that dental plate i used...
15:42:14 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: are you sure that hello world isn't backwards?
15:42:55 <Taneb> oerjan, it's a strong bleach
15:43:25 <Taneb> So teeth makes sense
15:45:26 <Hoolootwo> the second one says that he would like some H2O, too
15:58:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49815&oldid=49814 * Moon * (+1792) Finished documentation
16:00:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49816&oldid=49815 * Moon * (+96)
16:02:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49817&oldid=49816 * Moon * (+46)
16:05:19 * moonythedwarf gives oerjan e=a thanks for pointing out my Hello, World! program in gravbox was backwards
16:07:45 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: with only a stack, you will need to use unbounded integers for that hth
16:09:09 <oerjan> good. something like fractran might be reasonably easy to compile to this.
16:09:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49818&oldid=49817 * Moon * (+33)
16:10:19 <moonythedwarf> first question for myself: how would i reverse the order of the stack?
16:10:35 <oerjan> that's precisely the thing that's impossible.
16:11:06 <oerjan> you'd need to convert the entire stack to a godel numbering.
16:12:03 <moonythedwarf> huh. maybe that would work using duplicate to make the division undistructive...
16:12:13 <moonythedwarf> wow i think you could make a stack inside the stack
16:13:43 <oerjan> i think you have too few stack operations, you cannot get below the top element without destroying info
16:14:07 <moonythedwarf> true, how about a rotate? move top of stack to bottom or bottom to top
16:14:31 <moonythedwarf> or how could i change one of the instructions to do it?
16:14:35 <oerjan> that would give you a queue, which should be plenty for tc-ness.
16:15:02 <oerjan> even without using unbounded numbers
16:16:31 <oerjan> i think possibly all you need is a swap operation, given clever enough arithmetic
16:16:46 <oerjan> (swap top two elements)
16:17:47 <oerjan> that'll be enough to pair elements into one while keeping all info in them, theoretically (but awkwardly)
16:19:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49819&oldid=49818 * Moon * (+48) Added the : instruction, thanks Oerjan!
16:20:30 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: simply being able to be compiled from/to a TC language is enough right?
16:20:31 <oerjan> this language seems designed to confuse underloaders
16:20:43 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: from, yep.
16:21:18 <moonythedwarf> i was just trying to avoid using any letters for commands.
16:21:31 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: ^:% are :~! in underload
16:22:55 <oerjan> compiling _to_ a TC language is just not being uncomputable, which your language pretty obviously fulfils so far.
16:24:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49820&oldid=49819 * Moon * (+109) Added Categorys
16:25:46 <moonythedwarf> Soo if i compile underload to Gravbox, its turing complete..
16:26:18 <oerjan> (still think fractran will be simpler)
16:26:49 <oerjan> or well, assuming / is integer division.
16:27:09 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: | is integer division, im thinking up a encoding scheme
16:28:13 <oerjan> well the thing about fractran is you don't really need any encoding.
16:29:32 <oerjan> fractran generally wants something like 2^n*3^m*5^k
16:29:52 <moonythedwarf> this here is to store '13' and give space for another 2 digit number: 91+3+91+91+**
16:32:04 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: i mean for encoding, it'll avoid all those 91+
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16:34:32 <oerjan> although if you also use a-zA-Z, you can probably compress things but it'll be strangely irregular
16:35:34 <oerjan> those are the same, ascii is a subset of utf-8 by design
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16:55:53 <\oren\> yeah, I'm not sure if HOI4 ever ends. I have a game that's almost reached 1952
17:03:02 <\oren\> No enemy bomber can reach the Ruhr. If one reaches the Ruhr, my name is not Göring. You may call me Meyer. -Hermann Meyer
17:14:07 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: even better encoding of 13 into a group: 49+91+^**
17:14:56 <ais523> which language is that? Befunge?
17:15:33 <ais523> wait, no, there wouldn't be a reason for the second * there
17:15:48 <moonythedwarf> New esolang :P im tyring to prove the turing completeness of Gravbox (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravbox)
17:16:14 <moonythedwarf> thats 13*100, making space for another 2 digit number
17:17:20 <moonythedwarf> im trying to figure out how to implent Fractran, which oerjan said would probably be the most easy to implent
17:18:46 <ais523> haven't looked at the language yet
17:18:57 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: mind you, i did say compiling, not interpreting.
17:20:29 <oerjan> much easier than interpreting, i think
17:20:33 <ais523> it's not explained all that clearly
17:20:33 <ais523> I assume that commands run when a ball passes over them?
17:21:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49821&oldid=49820 * Moon * (+37)
17:21:54 <ais523> is the stack a stack of bignums? if not, a TCness proof is much harder
17:22:20 <ais523> actually I kind-of like the version of the language where you have to send balls into the blankness around the program in order to store data
17:24:40 <ais523> moonythedwarf: the language doesn't specify the stack width
17:24:46 <ais523> and it's highly relevant here
17:24:57 <ais523> I was considering two versions of the language, one where it's a bignum, the other where it's bounded
17:25:19 <moonythedwarf> wise. the stack always starts with a single 0 and has no bounds on number size
17:25:26 <oerjan> ooh, you actually _might_ be able to store info in such balls...
17:25:40 <oerjan> that would need essential use of the gravity, too
17:26:59 <moonythedwarf> * `>`: Take a item off the top of the stack and store it in a ball.
17:27:00 <oerjan> hm might be tricky though
17:27:01 <moonythedwarf> * `<`: Take the item in a ball and store it in the stack.
17:27:02 <ais523> oerjan: I think it'd probably work best if you had two balls at opposite sides of the program, the distance between them stores one value
17:27:08 <ais523> then you use the height of the stack fo the toher
17:27:44 <oerjan> ais523: the somewhat tricky part is that all the balls fall in the same direction
17:28:03 <ais523> that's why you have two balls at opposite sides to store one piece of data
17:28:32 <moonythedwarf> ais523: i dont get it. plus. you can have more than 2 balls
17:29:24 <oerjan> it seems awkward to control many balls outside the main program area
17:29:26 <ais523> moonythedwarf: I know, but you can't move balls independently of each other
17:29:59 <ais523> also < and > make stack manip much easier but don't seem to add any computational power, whether you're using bignums or smallnums
17:31:22 <moonythedwarf> most likely not, as that could be considered a wimpmode :P
17:32:25 <oerjan> <moonythedwarf> is that what you are thinking of oerjan? <-- i certainly wasn't imagining adding a new command for it. that sounds too easy.
17:33:07 <oerjan> just manipulating balls with clever use of gravity adjustments and #s
17:35:27 <moonythedwarf> oerjan, ais523: so whats your view on the possibility of Gravbox being turing complete?
17:35:50 <oerjan> as i already said, i think you can compile fractran to it, with bignums.
17:36:09 <oerjan> i'm less sure how easy ais523's idea is.
17:36:27 <ais523> I think it probably is, even without bignums
17:36:41 <ais523> but that actually getting it to work will be very difficult
17:37:01 * moonythedwarf still wants proof, and will work towards a proof of concept
17:37:08 <ais523> especially because the control flow "inside" the porgram is affected by the data flow outside the program, as they're both based on the same gravity
17:37:37 <oerjan> ais523: that's why you certainly need to use #
17:38:31 <moonythedwarf> however, i think someone clever would realise \/ has the same function as a wall if gravity is going down for example
17:39:02 <oerjan> oh, that's a bit confusing
17:39:18 <oerjan> are you saying \/ do _not_ change gravity?
17:40:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49822&oldid=49821 * Moon * (+56) Confusion fix
17:40:51 <moonythedwarf> a ball that falls down onto a / will go left. and continue falling down
17:41:23 <oerjan> ok. btw what happens if it falls onto it from below >:)
17:42:22 <oerjan> um that's the ball's right
17:43:08 <oerjan> yeah the description seems to assume falling down
17:43:30 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: if you have a better description, please change it
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17:48:53 * moonythedwarf personally hopes oerjan might help a bit more with turing complete proof. because im stuck trying to figure out a implentation
17:50:09 <oerjan> i'm thinking with ais523's idea, it might be enough with two balls, one inside the program area and one (usually) outside it.
17:50:50 <oerjan> and you can store one register in the latter, and one in the stack depth, as he said, which is enough to do a 2-reg minsky machine (or indirectly, fractran)
17:51:20 <oerjan> its distance from the program stores one natural number.
17:51:45 <oerjan> there'll be a @ at the edge the program that it'll occasionally hit when its 0.
17:51:57 <oerjan> and that's the only interaction it needs, i think.
17:52:24 <oerjan> it's _supposed_ to roam free.
17:52:40 <oerjan> otherwise there's no way to store unbounded data in it.
17:53:07 <moonythedwarf> but what if it runs into the program? it will break the program
17:53:22 <oerjan> also, it can only hit the @ when the other ball is at the opposite edge of the program, at a specific point.
17:53:52 <oerjan> well the program will be designed so that never happens.
17:54:02 <moonythedwarf> well first i need to come up with more example programs. i dunno if a quine is actually possible
17:54:02 <ais523> the basic idea is for the @ at the edge to only run back and forth along a specific line
17:54:13 <ais523> moonythedwarf: if the language is TC, it is
17:54:26 <ais523> but may require embedding an interpreter for some other language in it
17:55:09 * moonythedwarf wonders if letting the program run a command on the stack would be a good idea
17:55:39 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: if you want to go for the fractran-with-unbounded-numbers tc proof instead, that should be easier.
17:55:59 <oerjan> i think a quine might be awkward.
17:56:07 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: on the wiki?
17:56:41 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran
17:57:19 <oerjan> it's all in the second paragraph, really.
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17:59:21 <int-e> "As an enlightened individual I know that the Islam is not the root of all evil; it's the Catholic church."
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18:02:42 <oerjan> i suspect a quine will be somewhat large, because the language has very awkward (aka you have to design it yourself) string handling
18:03:07 <myname> i'd love tp see a quine in funciton
18:03:12 <oerjan> so none of the shortcuts will work.
18:03:16 <myname> that'd be glorious as fuck
18:05:11 <myname> i guess quines in 2d languages are quite hard in comparisson, aren't they?
18:05:21 <myname> like, is there even a quine for befunge?
18:05:44 <oerjan> well befunge has program reading capability
18:05:57 <myname> no cheating quines, please
18:06:00 <oerjan> but i don't think it's impossible even without using that
18:06:23 <oerjan> it has reasonable string handling
18:07:11 <myname> funciton has string handling, but it seems kinda limited
18:07:22 <myname> but well, just print out the string functions, too
18:08:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente examples]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49823&oldid=46228 * CatIsFluffy * (+244) added correct addition code
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18:45:04 <quintopia> what is the least esoteric language on the wiki
18:45:30 <shachaf> The most exoteric language?
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18:48:00 <int-e> hmm, http://esolangs.org/wiki/BANCStar wasn't meant to be esoteric.
18:48:40 <int-e> But in practice I rather suspect it's less known than Brainfuck.
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18:50:09 <HackEgo> [U+0043 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C] [U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B] [U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+004C LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L]
18:50:44 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/COBOL ... why the name...
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18:58:48 <int-e> and of course there are a few that are really mathematical in spirit, like Fractran
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19:02:31 <int-e> More aiming at the "language" part, and also playing advocatus diaboli.
19:03:21 -!- Kaynato has joined.
19:03:23 <int-e> (Since I accept Fractran to be a programming language, actually.)
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19:16:55 <int-e> rumors of this channel's untimely demise have been greatly exaggerated
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19:17:26 <fizzie> Channel's significantly less dead than it was in, say, 2005-2007. Not to mention the 2003-2004 era, which doesn't even register.
19:19:33 <shachaf> Look, people don't have to be talking all the time.
19:19:51 <shachaf> Especially if, when they do talk, it's just high noise and no signal.
19:20:09 <Taneb> Like, someone saying "avocadus d'aglio" adds no value to the channel
19:20:24 <shachaf> I was thinking of "channel's dead"
19:20:52 <Taneb> I was taking the opportunity to poke fun of myself at providing more noise than signal
19:21:06 <shachaf> I don't think "d'aglio" was so bad.
19:21:13 <shachaf> But look at me, with my aioli.
19:21:13 <int-e> Taneb: I think you're providing more noise than signal.
19:21:32 <int-e> Taneb: (Well that sounded funnier in my head than it probably is.)
19:21:44 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm mixing Latin and Italian quite horribly
19:21:52 <shachaf> Those are pretty much the same language.
19:22:21 <Taneb> What should I call my D&D character
19:22:22 <shachaf> Is "aioli" etymologically related to "aglio"?
19:22:40 <shachaf> "French, from Provençal ai ‘garlic’ + oli ‘oil.’"
19:22:44 <shachaf> I guess the answer is maybe.
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19:35:29 <FireFly> quintopia: depending on who you ask, maybe Perl?
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19:45:08 <\oren\> well, why don't we program a bot to say something random every half hour to make the channel seem more alive?
19:47:11 <\oren\> fungot, does that sound good to you?
19:47:13 <int-e> \oren\: because it's the wrong kind of life.
19:48:33 <int-e> (I don't know about you but my client has a visual indicator for channel activity and it would be sad if that indicator became (more) meaningless)
19:48:44 <\oren\> I have been attempting to modify tcc to allow unicode in identifiers
19:49:48 <\oren\> I plan a buch of modifications that will make a version of C that is more modern
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19:52:43 <\oren\> well, hppavilion[2^H1], i plan to: allow %, <<, and >> to be used on floats
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19:54:11 <fungot> int-e: use microsoft hotmail doe that disables middle-click?
19:54:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:54:35 <izalove> is there a prng that can fast forward n states in less than O(log n) time?
19:54:37 <int-e> fungot: isn't hotmail dead though?
19:54:37 <fungot> int-e: could i also have a few choice bits on dabbrev-expand.
19:54:52 <int-e> fungot: sure, 1010001110101111
19:54:52 <fungot> int-e: and it sort-of faded into the background to deal with that in mind.
19:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhungotn
19:55:40 <\oren\> add the use of unless, until, and forever blocks
19:55:54 <int-e> izalove: what's your complexity model?
19:56:05 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: despite the font the recipes seem rather good. i don't think
19:56:14 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
19:56:18 <\oren\> and add ^^, logical XOR
19:56:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:56:29 <izalove> int-e: didn't expect that question, why is it relevant?
19:56:32 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: np. you could write your own cons. what chandler just said. but minion would put an s there? you're still agreeing about facts. :p
19:56:43 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
19:56:44 <int-e> izalove: I mean, typically I'd say that one needs O(log n) space to encode n, and hence O(log n) operations to even look at n.
19:56:54 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: with other chiefs a little apart from the growing throng. once i thought even the pounding sea seemed afraid of something, and when toward the small object on the opposite wall.
19:57:19 <izalove> int-e: i just need to advance the internal state of a prng
19:57:22 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
19:57:26 <hppavilion[1]> The second sentence is either an exact quote or a REALLY good coincidence
19:57:32 <fungot> moonythedwarf: the jug glugged, but with the air of one who has to wave the bag of nappies, and the chuck keys for electric drills.)
19:58:23 <izalove> and obviously there are some prngs that can compute it in less than O(log n)
19:58:44 <\oren\> I really need to write down my ideas for extended C somewhere
19:58:47 <izalove> int rand () { static int i = 1234; return i++; }
19:59:06 <int-e> So O(1) then. Anyway, no, I don't know anything better. I imagine that those that can do it on O(log n) are based on some clever linear transformations and square and multiply.
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20:04:00 <\oren\> how about an operator like a<-b that just means *a=b
20:04:26 <\oren\> nah, that would cause lexer conflicts
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20:07:42 <ais523> \oren\: that operator's normally called :=
20:07:54 <ais523> which I think lexes unambiguously
20:08:42 <shachaf> := normally means dereferencing assignment?
20:09:00 <ais523> well, it means "assign the value on the right to the name on the left"
20:09:09 <ais523> and in C, a pointer is the closest thing you have to a name
20:09:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
20:09:30 <int-e> C goes to great length to define "lvalues" in its standard
20:09:45 <ais523> C++ has references which are even closer, though
20:09:54 <shachaf> C++ goes to much greater length to define all sorts of values.
20:10:02 <ais523> (in other news, "name" being a technical term is very confusing)
20:10:06 <\oren\> references are just an annoying version of pointers
20:10:12 <int-e> so C's a = b is :=, to my mind.
20:10:23 <shachaf> lvalues, rvalues, glvalues, xvalues, prvalues
20:10:35 <int-e> *a = b would be something different, as shachaf suggested
20:11:25 <ais523> well C uses a rather dubious naming convention
20:11:56 <\oren\> I still think the lack of ^^ is totally embarrasing
20:11:56 <ais523> you can tell something's wrong because unary & exists and doesn't stack
20:12:53 <ais523> in mathematical languages which have C-like assignment, the typical syntax (using C-like syntax) for C's "a = b" would be "a := *b", and "a := b" would translate to C as "a = &b"
20:13:54 -!- otherbot has joined.
20:13:58 <otherbot> [SyntaxError: Unexpected token =]
20:14:06 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function], | EventEmitter: [Function], | AssertionError: [Function], | assert: { [Function] equal: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] }, | x: 1, | y: 2 }
20:14:12 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function], | EventEmitter: [Function], | AssertionError: [Function], | assert: { [Function] equal: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] }, | x: 1, | y: 2 }
20:14:17 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function], | EventEmitter: [Function], | AssertionError: [Function], | assert: { [Function] equal: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] }, | x: 1, | y: 2 }
20:14:20 <otherbot> [ReferenceError: j is not defined]
20:14:29 <otherbot> [SyntaxError: Unexpected token ?]
20:14:34 <\oren\> well yeah because a lot of languages have this stupid thing where you can't actually modify values, you instead change what references refer to, and it's optimized into actual calculations afterward
20:15:22 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function], | EventEmitter: [Function], | AssertionError: [Function], | assert: { [Function] equal: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] } }
20:16:15 <otherbot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'split' of undefined]
20:16:32 <moonythedwarf> -js var x = new Buffer("\\oren\\"); x.alloc(-1); x
20:16:33 <otherbot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'split' of undefined]
20:16:35 <otherbot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'split' of undefined]
20:16:37 <moonythedwarf> -js var x = new Buffer("\\oren\\"); x.alloc(-1); 1
20:16:37 <otherbot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'split' of undefined]
20:16:49 <otherbot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'split' of undefined]
20:16:54 <moonythedwarf> -js var x = new Buffer("\\oren\\"); x.alloc(-1,"hi"); 1
20:16:55 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function], | EventEmitter: [Function], | AssertionError: [Function], | assert: { [Function] equal: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] }, | x: | { data: [ '5c', '6f', '72', '65', '6e', '5c' ], | toString: [Function], | alloc: [Function] } }
20:16:57 <moonythedwarf> -js var x = new Buffer("\\oren\\"); x.alloc(-1,"hi")
20:16:58 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function], | EventEmitter: [Function], | AssertionError: [Function], | assert: { [Function] equal: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] }, | x: | { data: [ '5c', '6f', '72', '65', '6e', '5c' ], | toString: [Function], | alloc: [Function] } }
20:17:02 <moonythedwarf> -js var x = new Buffer("\\oren\\"); x.alloc(-19,"hi")
20:17:02 <otherbot> { obuf: '', | console: { log: [Function] }, | Buffer: [Function], | EventEmitter: [Function], | AssertionError: [Function], | assert: { [Function] equal: [Function] }, | util: {}, | global: '[Circular]', | process: { exit: [Function] }, | x: | { data: [ '5c', '6f', '72', '65', '6e', '5c' ], | toString: [Function], | alloc: [Function] } }
20:17:11 <int-e> otherbot, moonythedwarf: get a room!
20:17:31 <\oren\> try using /msg otherbot
20:18:27 <hppavilion[1]> OK, the insult is hupadgh'fhalmanyth nilgh'ri'bthnk
20:18:41 * moonythedwarf pokes hppavilion[1] for telling me to spam elsewhere when i already am
20:19:21 <hppavilion[1]> (lit: born of mother servant of everthing body; intended meaning: your mother is a whore)
20:19:40 <hppavilion[1]> moonythedwarf: Google Translate doesn't know R'lyehian
20:20:18 <\oren\> does google translate have elvish yet even?
20:21:16 <\oren\> it ghas esperanto, which is almost as fictional
20:21:43 <HackEgo> flex xan auseudo jeffolucie modim weldeos reústrar ferestruile himko fuérativa
20:22:18 <shachaf> what a surprise, a big screenful of bot spam
20:22:40 <HackEgo> הפםיק הלוגים ולפרה במעקרי ייענו וסו כשמתיר ויזיוו יספרו האגיעות
20:22:59 <fizzie> `` words --list # please check the list instead
20:23:01 <HackEgo> медхедететя перевне продскатеы нигоршяхъ сопаевкамъ фиклообр проненасе негланные велите геразду
20:23:04 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
20:23:22 <\oren\> `words --canadian-english-insane 10
20:23:26 <HackEgo> lazedearlyleterm neuropical unprovidular robracter ponsligh bunoplanapproom microco aralina azalistop outseleotion
20:23:33 <int-e> I don't believe in "-теы"
20:23:51 <int-e> or "хъ" for that matter.
20:25:36 <iovoid> moonythedwarf: do you to take the ridiculous job of porting NodeJS non-SO-binding-dependant core modules to otherbot's sandbox? Its just some thousand lines and an event loop
20:30:29 <\oren\> ויזיוו <- "uiziuu"? doesn't sound very triliteral
20:31:59 <\oren\> iirc ו can be used as "u" or "v"
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20:34:30 <HackEgo> הזמ כשנשק והחלט ומיות החסש ובהשקה מאמת מעמ המצו מוב
20:35:23 <HackEgo> wywanaragen nie odwiskowalistów słuczem nieanty tłoczeszno smakrępowyko znego błyszartecha piernitówkowadzani
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21:17:37 <wob_jonas> Apparently "sick" is another of those words that have different meanings on the two sides of the ocean: in American it primarily means ill (in the sense of having an acute health problem), but in British it means nauseous
21:17:58 <shachaf> In American slang it also means good, I think.
21:18:10 <wob_jonas> This explains a lot. I know it had two different meanings that seem contradictory, but I didn't realize it was a continent thing like "pants".
21:18:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: it can mean either nauseous or vomiting, in the UK
21:18:17 <ais523> and as a noun, it's a synonym for "vomit"
21:18:32 <ais523> "feeling sick" means nauseous, though (because vomiting is an action rather than a feeling)
21:19:01 <wob_jonas> Can I just use "ill" and hope Americans understand it too?
21:19:23 <wob_jonas> I don't want to bother with words that require a dialect decision if I don't have to
21:20:07 <shachaf> Or do you mean that "corn" also doesn't want to bother with words that require a dialect decision?
21:20:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: "corn" means any sort of edible grain on one shore of the ocean, which is called "cereal" on the other; but means maize (the sweet yellow grain) on the other side
21:21:01 <wob_jonas> but with words like this, I never know which side of the ocean is which, and even if I could remember, I wouldn't want to bother figuring it out what it means here
21:21:23 <wob_jonas> so I should avoid "corn" and just say "maize" for one sense, and "grain" or "cereal" for the other sense
21:21:53 <shachaf> But many people in the US won't understand what you mean if you say "maize".
21:22:02 <wob_jonas> the second sense is the more important one, because I also won't try to remember the specific names for all the types of grains in English.
21:22:23 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ok, let's ignore the maize, I just want something that means any sort of grains
21:23:08 <wob_jonas> I know what "wheat" is, but I've no idea how the names of all the other types of grain in English correspond to the grains
21:23:20 <wob_jonas> so I probably just want to mention grains in general
21:23:32 <wob_jonas> as in, edible grains you can make bread from
21:23:50 <wob_jonas> or let's say edible grains you make flour from
21:24:29 <wob_jonas> (yes, I also know which one is "rice".)
21:30:32 <hppavilion[1]> It's cute when people use a Cross of Saint Peter (inverted cross; essentially, where † (dagger) is a Christian cross, an inverted dagger (which apparently doesn't exist in Unicode) is this) as a satanic symbol
21:30:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: "cereal" is the general word I think
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21:35:09 <hppavilion[1]> The Cross of Saint Peter has its origins in the legend (that isn't in the bible AFAICT, so I'm not sure whether it's considered officially true by the various churches) that St. Peter requested that he be crucified upside down because he felt he was unworthy of dying the same way as Jesus
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21:37:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm actually really a fan of the Gospel of Judas, which tells a different story of Jesus's crucifixion, saying that Judas didn't betray Jesus- Jesus told him to tell the romans where he was because it was necessary and stuff.
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21:38:41 <fungot> wob_jonas: simon licked his dry lips. he motioned carrot towards one gate and dragged nobby and colon to the other fellows.'
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21:40:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:40:40 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
21:40:50 <fungot> quintopia: skeleton: a sub-species of the valkyries were the voices of men whose very souls were under siege; men to whom he was dressed in a small time they will wait for the lion; he scares up game, which one's real? xander: let go of the slain, the xorn has the power of wading through the air.
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21:52:34 <Taneb> Somewhere in the south pacific
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21:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: No, Rome is the midpoint of Italy and whatever the opposite
21:53:47 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, I need to know what to call reverse italics
21:55:30 <quintopia> Taneb: yes. somwhere east of new zealand
21:55:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Though strictly, what I'm calling 'italic' is actually 'oblique'; 'italic' is a combination of oblique form and script style)
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21:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> Call what I was calling 'italic' 'oblique' (as it should be) and the reverse 'coblique'
21:59:48 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I also want double-italics, which occasionally serve useful purposes. If I have double-oblique, I also have to have double-coblique; but would oblique-coblique and coblique-oblique be distinct from plain roman?
22:00:50 <hppavilion[1]> (I am of the opinion that Blackboard Bold should be considered a proper font, and all fonts should support it together with italic and bold (and italic-bold))
22:02:54 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Oh, backwards italics can be called "Iranic"
22:03:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Because it's basically how you'd italicize Arabic)
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22:15:08 <\oren\> why is budapest pronounced pudapesht
22:16:56 <ais523> \oren\: part of it's just spelling; the sound spelled "sh" in English is spelled "s" in Hungarian, and the sound spelled "s" in English is spelled "sz" in Hungarian
22:17:18 <Taneb> Because place names are often borrowed before linguistic evolution and/or spelling reform
22:17:22 <\oren\> oh, so they just took the hungarian spelling.
22:19:45 <\oren\> and the pronounciation, without regard to confusion
22:21:48 <Taneb> \oren\, I've only heard it pronounced the way that would be natural in English
22:21:58 <shachaf> why is gaszpaczo pronounced the way it is
22:21:59 <Taneb> Then again, the closest I've been to Hungary is South Tyrol
22:22:19 <Taneb> shachaf, it's sparkling paczo
22:22:27 <shachaf> I guess I got the spelling wrong.
22:22:47 <HackEgo> wisdom/ha \ wisdom/gazspaczo \ wisdom/b_jonas \ wisdom/disflagrate \ wisdom/hungarian \ wisdom/ent \ wisdom/szoup \ wisdom/gaszpacho \ wisdom/middle worse
22:23:02 <HackEgo> gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
22:23:07 <HackEgo> gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
22:23:12 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
22:23:22 <HackEgo> Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
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22:27:19 <\oren\> hmm, maybe I just know a lot of people who are pretentious and pronounce foreign words the foreign way
22:27:38 <\oren\> like "frankfurt" -> "fronkfrt"
22:28:28 <Taneb> \oren\, how about Ljubljana?
22:29:18 <shachaf> Taneb: Have you considered moving to Ljubljana and doing things with Andrej Bauer?
22:29:35 <Taneb> shachaf, not the second half. Who is Andrej Bauer?
22:30:14 <shachaf> Taneb: andrej bauer is the best hth
22:30:18 <\oren\> oh and of course "paris" "paree"
22:30:34 <shachaf> Taneb: http://andrej.com/fan.html
22:31:06 <shachaf> I think he was looking for PhD students.
22:31:22 <Taneb> \oren\, I am not, however, happy about the American pronunciation of Bologna
22:34:05 <\oren\> muricans say "balonee"
22:36:50 <Taneb> I think I will go to bed now
22:40:49 <hppavilion[1]> In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA#Brackets, where it talks about the third kind (pipes or double slashes, indicating an underlying construct that sounds different), it says that |s| might be used to claim that phonemic /tɔːks/ and /lʌlz/ are essentially |tɔːks| and |lʌls| underneath.
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22:53:45 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: not lulz
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23:15:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm defining a new set of math symbols that have a few nicer properties
23:17:28 <hppavilion[1]> - is being changed to something like a NOT sign (¬) flipped over the midline
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23:20:14 <hppavilion[1]> With the justification that this way, commutative operations are represented by signs with vertical symmetry and non-commutative operations aren't
23:21:06 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, man, remember https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858 ?
23:22:57 * oerjan recognized the number, even
23:24:40 <shachaf> remember https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/10000 ?
23:25:11 <oerjan> no, i've completely forgotten it, probably wasn't important hth
23:25:12 <shachaf> still a little annoyed that #10000 is considered a duplicate, when the content of it was much more troubling than the thing it was a duplicate of
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23:26:46 <HackEgo> costume//Costumes are used for cosplay. Taneb sometimes invents them.
23:26:47 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 3h 31m 5s ago: pice = pi times
23:26:59 <boily> hppavellon[1]. tdh.
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23:29:40 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm defining their appearance with 2 points A & C, 5 operations / (midpoint), - (line), @ (circle), ^ (join), , (swap), two stack operations : (dup) and $ (drop), * for drawing, and some pure sugar
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23:34:47 <lambdabot> *** "splay" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:34:47 <lambdabot> adj 1: turned outward in an ungainly manner; "splay knees"
23:34:47 <lambdabot> n 1: an outward bevel around a door or window that makes it seem
23:35:55 <lambdabot> v 1: spread open or apart; "He splayed his huge hands over the
23:35:55 <lambdabot> 2: turn outward; "These birds can splay out their toes"; "ballet
23:35:55 <lambdabot> dancers can rotate their legs out by 90 degrees" [syn: {turn
23:35:55 <lambdabot> out}, {splay}, {spread out}, {rotate}]
23:36:27 <lambdabot> 3: move out of position; "dislocate joints"; "the artificial hip
23:36:27 <lambdabot> joint luxated and had to be put back surgically" [syn:
23:36:27 <lambdabot> {dislocate}, {luxate}, {splay}, {slip}]
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23:37:50 <oerjan> i hope i shall never need a stume, i think.
23:38:37 <boily> fungot: fungellot. what's a stume?
23:38:37 <fungot> boily: touch*stone: " by crom, there will be tempted to hit, use a unicorn happy is to give it to paralyse creatures up to the protozoa. slime molds have complex life cycles with an enchanted tooth?
23:38:56 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:39:12 <boily> fungot: something that paralyzes you up to the protozoa? uuuuuurgh!
23:39:12 <fungot> boily: stair*: up he went for the head were riveted to this question! how much wood could a woodchuck could chuck wood? " oh, heck! i'll handle *this* one!
23:39:28 <oerjan> i didn't know slime molds had teeth, but that's nethack for you, i guess.
23:40:27 <HackEgo> Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people.
23:40:37 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, they don't usually. That's why it's an enchanted tooth.
23:41:35 <boily> fungot: do you have teeth?
23:41:35 <fungot> boily: extra staircases lead to extra levels. perhaps our appearance produces a similar feeling in the hand that held axes and short swords; and they were wolves, but, whoever he was working at the man in the midst of the nethack project, and which is tipped with hardened steel.
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23:43:23 <oerjan> `learn Splay is a painful pastime that is dual to cosplay and the supersymmetric partner of ordinary play. Recuperation, when even possible, may require wearing a stume.
23:43:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'splay': Splay is a painful pastime that is dual to cosplay and the supersymmetric partner of ordinary play. Recuperation, when even possible, may require wearing a stume.
23:43:38 <shachaf> oerjan: But what's a splay tree?
23:44:19 <shachaf> Doesn't the stume cowear you? Or perhaps goatear?
23:44:23 <Zarutian> oerjan: that is the main reason why the often look so ackward?
23:45:49 <oerjan> Zarutian: i am not sure whether you are making a grammatical error, or aiming for a truly horrible pun i've missed
23:47:25 <Zarutian> oerjan: keyboard crud is the reason for that one. Dont ask why that key though.
23:48:36 <oerjan> also, i'm probably not getting whichever reference you were actually aiming for.
23:49:36 <boily> `le/rn stume/A stume cowears and goatears you. That is the main reason why the often look so ackward.
23:50:20 <oerjan> i believe `learn would have worked there. but now all is clear, thank you.
23:50:47 <Zarutian> oerjan: 'y' that key, geddit? ;-Þ
23:51:25 <boily> Zarutian: are you from Iceland, eh?
23:51:27 <oerjan> Zarutian: that's only one of the errors hth
23:52:00 <oerjan> and i'm still not sure what "they" refers to.
23:52:18 <Zarutian> boily: possibly. If you are going to ask for a polarbear pelt signed by Björk then I cannot help you.
23:53:00 <oerjan> i think the splaying itself does that, Zarutian
23:53:03 <boily> oh, none of the sort, thanks.
23:53:03 <Zarutian> boily: both are rather þorny I fear
23:53:22 * boily þwacks Zarutian. 0.76 shachafs.
23:53:46 <oerjan> Zarutian: what about if he asks for a hákarl sample? he'd be the most likely person in the channel to do such a thing...
23:53:59 * Zarutian wiðdraws into his aramoured keyshell.
23:54:57 <boily> I wonder if it can be shipped here... I know for a fact that surströmming is banned, but maybe shark is OK...
23:55:00 <Zarutian> eh, ya really want to try hákarl?
23:56:59 <Zarutian> here is a substitute you could try at home: take a few newspapers, the yellow the better. Put them in a blender a few pages at a time with generous helpings of cat piss. Turn on the blender, then put the mass into an compression strainer and let it dry out over a week.
23:57:22 <Zarutian> then you get what I tasted and sensed when I tried hákarl.
23:57:52 <Zarutian> I am sure the urea in it had not been gone properly though
23:59:05 <boily> can I use marine biology magazines? regular newspapers lack sharkiness...
00:02:36 <Zarutian> boily: only the ones on crustaseans, otherwise it is not salty enough
00:02:52 <oerjan> getting this strange impression Zarutian doesn't like hákarl, even marinated.
00:03:17 <Zarutian> oerjan: it is too basic for me
00:04:09 <Zarutian> (antonymic of acid for the ones slow on the uptake)
00:04:39 * oerjan btw learned yesterday that crustaceans are to insects like dinosaurs are to birds
00:05:52 <oerjan> except for the extinct part, i guess.
00:05:53 <Zarutian> oerjan: well isnt that exoskelent (excelent)?
00:06:02 <ais523> oerjan: I'm sure there are some extinct crustaceans
00:07:07 * boily thwacks Zarutian. 0.33 shachafs.
00:07:11 <Zarutian> humm, I wonder if you could keep land crabs in lower and lower airpressure for their generations and get a space worthy one. Call it Something Blue
00:07:27 <shachaf> boily: It would be good if you switched to a different unit that doesn't hilight me.
00:07:48 <boily> the symbol shall be the «Sh».
00:08:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/shachaf//Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion.
00:08:36 <HackEgo> Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack doctor oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:08:45 <oerjan> boily: i hope you subtracted points for explaining the pun
00:08:47 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:09:21 <boily> oerjan: a good -0.1 Sh were removed.
00:09:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:12:23 <oerjan> shachaf: why do you remove one of the few true parts tdnh
00:12:42 <oerjan> also, what's the fun in the unit if it's abbreviated...
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00:13:31 <shachaf> Herr Professor Doktor Oerjan
00:13:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you sure you *want* "doctor" to be there, if it's preceded by "quack"?
00:14:08 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/Nor/Glas/
00:14:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:16:12 <olsner> ah, of course Spaghetti is already an esolang
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00:17:12 <shachaf> Is "Oerjan" or "OErjan" the correct capitalization?
00:17:26 <olsner> had a vague idea that might match such a name (some kind of goto-oriented programming)
00:17:45 <oerjan> the former looks better
00:18:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:19:36 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#(oerlord) (quack)#\2 \1#
00:19:37 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 26: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
00:19:47 <shachaf> That was too much to hope for.
00:20:08 <olsner> slwd might be using the stupid regexps by default
00:20:16 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#\(oerlord\) \(quack\)#\2 \1#
00:20:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack oerlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:21:00 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#oer#doctover#
00:21:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack doctoverlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:22:13 <shachaf> `sedlast s#with a pasjon#and passion fruit#
00:22:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack doctoverlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:22:37 <oerjan> hm that may actually be true
00:22:40 <HackEgo> Betty Crocker is a notorious gambler.
00:23:00 <olsner> helloily and byely (niht)
00:23:15 <HackEgo> olsner: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:23:17 <shachaf> I thought "relcome" meant "welcome back".
00:23:25 <lambdabot> I can take it. The tougher it gets, the cooler I get.
00:23:37 <olsner> shachaf: back? I was always here
00:23:50 <shachaf> @nixon what do you think about the upcoming presidential election in the united states
00:23:50 <lambdabot> I played by the rules of politics as I found them.
00:23:51 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
00:24:09 <shachaf> @nixon and you think the current candidates should do the same?
00:24:09 <lambdabot> Scrubbing floors and emptying bedpans has as much dignity as the Presidency.
00:25:36 * Zarutian finds the USA presidental election cycle as apealing and quick as removing teeth through the use of live bambo sprouts.
00:26:47 <Zarutian> add on top of that the local parlimentary elections here that came about due to exposure of corruption and you get me rather cranky
00:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, do Spivak pronouns distinguish animate-inanimate?
00:27:43 <shachaf> parliament? are you some sort of communist
00:27:48 <lambdabot> Voters quickly forget what a man says.
00:28:56 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Sep 30 01:28:55 2016
00:29:01 <Zarutian> but people remember what you have done (against them) on their part
00:29:14 <boily> oerjan: are you wearing an orange t-shirt?
00:29:37 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, are you actually evil?
00:29:54 <shachaf> If not, maybe we should update that wisdom entry.
00:30:26 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#doctoverlord#octoberlord#
00:30:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:31:04 <shachaf> Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan
00:31:13 <shachaf> Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan
00:31:37 <hppavilion[1]> OK, the lack of adverbial forms of numbers other than {1, 2, 3} is REALLY bugging me
00:32:39 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/evil/weevil/
00:32:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> We can add {-1, -2, -3} with "negative once, negative twice, negative thrice" (or s/negative/minus)
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00:33:41 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: "einnar" is adverbial form? ("Single (feminine) <something>")
00:34:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#doctoverlord#octoberlord# <-- hey i had that thought
00:34:42 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: you have actually made this lack in English saliant to me
00:34:53 <hppavilion[1]> If we go by the same system as ordinals (e.g. "ninety-first"), we just need to name 0..19 (and probably just 0..9) and have a way of naming multiples of 10
00:35:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: stop complaining, norwegian doesn't have adverbial forms for numbers at all...
00:36:40 <Zarutian> oerjan: hvad? det kan ikke vera svo? eller er det svo?
00:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> So if second is the object at index 2 and something twice means something that has occurred 2 times, when ninety-first is the object at index 91, and something that has occurred 91 times happened ninety-once
00:37:21 <oerjan> Zarutian: once = en gang, twice = to ganger, etc. no inflection.
00:38:02 <Zarutian> oerjan: so it is. This means it is also such in Danish and Swedish.
00:39:26 <hppavilion[1]> nulce, once, twice, thrice, fice, vice, sice, sevice, eice, nince, tence, elevence, twelce, thirteence, fourteence, .., ninteence, twentiece
00:39:44 <boily> une fois, deux fois, trois fois, quatre fois... pour une fois que le français fait du sens, tsé...
00:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> thirtiece, fourtiece, fiftiece, sixtiece, seventiece, eightiece, ninetiece, hundredce
00:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> Thousandce, [myiace], millionce, billionce, trillionce
00:40:40 <shachaf> the white cliffs of doctoverlord
00:41:10 <oerjan> boily: meanwhile, latin has a comprehensive set. semel, bis, ter, quater ...
00:41:28 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: but this applies to how something happens n times and not the exact cardinality of something else?
00:41:35 <shachaf> That's a scow way to extend a language.
00:41:48 <shachaf> Better to use separate words than inflecting.
00:41:57 <boily> itym a scowce way hth
00:42:29 <Zarutian> oerjan: can you tell me if this phrase "memento vitae" is correct latin for "I am reminded that I am alive and joyously existant"
00:43:36 <Zarutian> shachaf: lojban has its charms and doesnt require you to trying to learn to differeniate between modal tones.
00:43:56 <shachaf> The "absolutely not" was a response to "sith?", not to lojban.
00:44:10 <shachaf> Tones aren't even that hard, I assume.
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00:44:23 <oerjan> Zarutian: no, memento is imperative. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/memini#Latin
00:44:32 <shachaf> When I listen to Mandarin for a while I can usually distinguish them after a bit.
00:44:47 <Zarutian> shachaf: for someone who is somewhat tonechange deaf it is a problem.
00:45:04 <shachaf> How do you think Chinese speakers handle it?
00:45:15 <shachaf> Or are they none of them "tonechange deaf"?
00:45:31 <shachaf> Or maybe it's too late for you, in your advanced age, to learn it.
00:45:32 <Zarutian> oerjan: oh, as the phrase "memento mori" as said to Cesar literally means "remember thou art mortal"
00:46:13 <shachaf> Why would it literally mean something in Elizabethan English?
00:46:35 <Zarutian> shachaf: literally used here in figgurative sense
00:46:53 <shachaf> remember you are figurative
00:47:12 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_English
00:47:12 <Zarutian> shachaf: and not verbtaim unless as a quote to a movie on the life and death of Cesar
00:47:36 <shachaf> The King James Bible came out after (most of) Shakespeare's plays.
00:47:47 <oerjan> Zarutian: well "mori" means to die, infinitive, but i guess latin uses it metaphorically
00:48:05 <shachaf> In the Jacobian era. And yet Leibniz was only born decades later?
00:48:36 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/memento_mori#Latin
00:49:08 <Zarutian> shafchaf: oyj dont expose the timewars stitchings this harshly
00:49:44 <Zarutian> shafchaf: it is bad enough to have some people so hopelessly stuck in the past that never was.
00:49:53 <shachaf> The Jacobian is named after King James.
00:50:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | This counter has been incremented six times | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
00:51:27 * Zarutian adds: specially when we got historical characters that never should have been at all.
00:51:39 <shachaf> Taneb: favorite king james: i-v of scotland, i-iii/vi-viii of england and scotland, or one of the spanish ones?
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00:55:32 <shachaf> King John / Put up a notice, / "LOST or STOLEN or STRAYED! / JAMES JAMES / MORRISON'S MOTHER / SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN MISLAID. / LAST SEEN / WANDERING VAGUELY / QUITE OF HER OWN ACCORD, / SHE TRIED TO GET DOWN TO THE END OF / THE TOWN - FORTY SHILLINGS REWARD!"
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01:11:14 <fizzie> shachaf: What, the matrix?
01:11:47 <shachaf> 16:48 <shachaf> In the Jacobian era. And yet Leibniz was only born decades later?
01:12:32 <fizzie> I didn't read that far back up.
01:12:49 <oerjan> i think the picture here has the right expression for your claim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_Jacob_Jacobi
01:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> ...wtf, doctors. You want BMI calculated as m/h^2, but you want us to just drop the units? seriously?
01:26:32 <hppavilion[1]> They say you calculate BMI with weight (kg) divided by height (m), but the result isn't given in kg/m^2
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01:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> If dy/dx is the derivative of a function, can one do other derivatives?
01:39:36 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: dy/dx is the derivative of y with respect to x
01:39:46 <ais523> and in this case, y is defined as a function of x
01:40:02 <ais523> for example, if y=x², then dy/dx = 2x
01:40:05 <hppavilion[1]> Like, if I have a function f(x, y, z) = o, I can do do/dx, do/dy, do/dz
01:40:18 <ais523> you could also write that like this: d(x²)/dx = 2x
01:40:31 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: in that case you have what's called partial derivatives
01:40:35 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA.
01:41:14 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But can I then do derivative in multiple dimensions? Probably something like f(x, z) = y, dy/dxdz or something?
01:41:27 <hppavilion[1]> (How do you even refer to slope in multiple dimensions?)
01:44:02 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you could do it at an angle, dy/d(x+z)
01:44:21 <ais523> but slope in multiple dimensions is normally referred to using two different slopes
01:44:29 <ais523> dy/dx and dy/dz in this case
01:45:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Would dx/dy (for y = f x) mean the derivative of a function g x = 1/f x?
01:46:21 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: depends on what you mean by "1/f"; it's the derivative of the inverse of f
01:47:18 <shachaf> ais523: Did you see all my questions about Leibniz notation in here?
01:47:25 <shachaf> Maybe you know the answers.
01:47:30 <ais523> shachaf: no, but I'm not sure I could answer them
01:47:37 <shachaf> It sounds like you have the same answer to the first question that I did.
01:47:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the derivative of 1/(f x) is calculated quite differently
01:48:05 <shachaf> Namely, when you write dy/dx, y is an expression with free variable x, and it means D(\x. y)(x)
01:48:17 <shachaf> Where D : (R -> R) -> (R -> R) is the differentiation operator on functions.
01:48:38 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I defined division of strings yesterday...
01:48:39 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think of it like that at all, although it does seem correct
01:48:48 <shachaf> Oh, then how do you think of it?
01:48:48 <ais523> like, that's just a really alien point of view to me
01:48:54 <ais523> shachaf: in terms of limits
01:49:04 <shachaf> One person I talked to insisted that the thing on top of dy/dx is a function, rather than an expression.
01:49:23 <DHeadshot> Would dx/dy be basically f-1'(x) than or have I got that wrong? It's been years since I did all this in my first year of Uni...
01:49:36 <shachaf> Well, sure. Df(x) = lim_{h->0}{ (f(x+h) - f(x)) / h }
01:49:38 <ais523> DHeadshot: no, that's right
01:50:02 <ais523> shachaf: I'll buy that
01:50:23 <ais523> the thing is I think of the dx and dy things as being deltas on x and y that are inherently self-limiting
01:50:51 <shachaf> This notation is obviously great because it works so well.
01:51:02 <shachaf> dy/du * du/dx = dy/dx, 1/(dy/dx) = dx/dy, etc.
01:51:11 <ais523> shachaf: right, and the delta notation explains why it works
01:51:14 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm pretty sure d is just an abstract symbol; dy/dx = limit(λ k -> (y*k/x)/(k), approach=0)
01:51:37 <hppavilion[1]> And turning limit into a function anybody could ever understand
01:51:53 <DHeadshot> I have seen delta-x/delta-y in some equations, though I forget why
01:52:12 <ais523> like, the way I think about d is
01:52:17 <ais523> you replace it with delta
01:52:27 <ais523> then take a limit on the entire expression containing it in which you tend the deltas to 0
01:52:45 <shachaf> ais523: What do you think of the thing people do where they have e.g.: x^2 + y^2 = 1; d(x^2 + y^2) = d(1); 2x dx + 2y dy = 0; dy/dx = -x/y
01:52:47 <ais523> the fact that it has an effect on the containing expression means that it isn't quite a variable or something that can be manipulated in its own right
01:53:24 <ais523> shachaf: it's fun when it works, but not necessarily worth memorizing the rules needed to know whether it will work or not
01:53:39 <shachaf> ais523: What are the rules?
01:53:51 <ais523> I don't know, I didn't memorize them
01:53:52 <shachaf> lim : (R -> R) -> (R -> R)
01:54:07 <shachaf> ais523: Everyone says these rules are ad-hoc.
01:54:20 <shachaf> Well, physicists just use them.
01:54:26 <ais523> well, I think there's a mathematical basis behind why it works
01:54:49 <shachaf> But they work so well that I think there has to be a good way of formalizing them. Even if dx is just a synthetic symbol or whatever.
01:54:59 <shachaf> My L : (R -> R) -> (R -> R) is pretty good.
01:55:07 <shachaf> A function f is continous if Lf=f
01:55:16 <ais523> shachaf: L is a continuiser?
01:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Mine doesn't require that you use the real numbers
01:55:31 <shachaf> Neither does mine, if you come up with another structure that it works for.
01:55:51 <shachaf> But you need to constrain t and u somehow.
01:56:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it's not as hard as people think it is
01:56:03 <hppavilion[1]> ...I searched Duck Duck Go for "limits". The first suggestion for meaning was in the BDSM sense
01:56:06 <shachaf> Lf(x) is a function which behaves kind of like f but maybe differently. Except it might be extremely different.
01:56:10 <ais523> at least, differential calculus
01:56:26 <shachaf> ais523: Anyway, the thing about x^2 + y^2 = 1 is that neither x nor y is a function of the other one.
01:56:37 <shachaf> But the derivative is still defined.
01:56:48 <shachaf> One way to make sense of that is to parameterize them both on some other variable t.
01:57:00 <ais523> yes, that's a well-known trick
01:57:05 <shachaf> And then "dy" really means "dy/dt" and "dx" really means "dx/dt"
01:57:16 <shachaf> But the thing is that the value of dy/dx is independent of your parameterization.
01:57:31 <shachaf> So why should you have to say that it's parameterized in the first place? I just want a direct meaning of "d".
01:58:53 <shachaf> People also do other tricks. They write: dy/dx = Ky; dy/y = K dx; \Int{dy/y} = \Int{K dx}; log(y) + C = Kx + D
01:58:58 <ais523> well, with the limits interpretation, dy/dx is perfectly meaningful here, so long as you can describe "a small change in x and y simultaneously while obeying the equation"
01:59:00 <shachaf> It almost always seems to work.
01:59:03 <ais523> that's basically what t does
01:59:17 <ais523> it allows you to describe how to change x and y while keeping the equation satisfied
01:59:28 <shachaf> Another thing you can write is d(x^3)/d(x^2). So the thing on the bottom isn't even a variable.
01:59:41 <ais523> there are other equations, such as cos(x)+sin(y)=2, which can't be perturbed while keeping the equation satisfied
01:59:53 <ais523> so I suspect that equation isn't differentiable
02:00:09 <ais523> what happens if you try the physicist trick on it?
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02:00:48 <DHeadshot> This is all starting to get a bit "black-magic proofs"...
02:01:03 <ais523> DHeadshot: right, we're busy debating if the proofs work or not and if so why
02:01:14 <ais523> d cos(x) + d sin(y) = d 2
02:01:38 <shachaf> You're missing the dx and dy
02:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But if we define the division of two strings s and t s/t (where every character in t appears at least as many times in s- written tally(s) :≥ tally(t)) as- non-deterministically- any string that can be generated by removing the same number of occurrences of a character from the top string as appear in the bottom string
02:03:07 <shachaf> ais523: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cos(x)%2Bsin(y)%3D2 is the graph of that function.
02:03:30 <shachaf> It doesn't look very interesting, so I'd expect its tangents aren't very interesting either.
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02:03:55 <shachaf> But take cos(x)+sin(y)=0 instead.
02:03:55 <ais523> shachaf: it's basically a grid of dots
02:04:15 <ais523> I did that intentionally, to make it impossible to usefully draw a tangent
02:05:19 <shachaf> But note that the derivative dy/dx is independent of the value 2 here.
02:05:37 <hppavilion[1]> (There are certain special types of quotient; for example, a Simple Quotient of s/t is any string in the set of quotients of s/t that have the smallest edit distance using the Simple Distance metric (which allows nothing but insertion and deletion of arbitrary-length continuous blocks of text))
02:06:01 <ais523> shachaf: try cos(x)-cos(y)=0
02:06:12 <ais523> the tangents to that are really easy to define
02:06:26 <ais523> however, changing the 0 to a different value changes them
02:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> (A Proper Quotient of s/t is only possible when t is a proper substring of s (and you just remove that substring), a Perfect Quotient is a Perfect Quotient where the substring is at the very end)
02:06:39 <shachaf> ais523: Right, but dy/dx is defined in terms of both x and y
02:06:52 <hppavilion[1]> So 'abcdefg'/'fg' = 'abcde', and that's a perfect quotient
02:07:02 <shachaf> ais523: Same thing for the circle: x^2+y^2=k has the same tangents no matter what the radius is, in terms of x and y.
02:07:27 <shachaf> ais523: Which makes dy/dx = -x/y a much better answer than something like dy/dx = -x/sqrt(1-x^2), which only works for one radius.
02:07:45 <shachaf> (And also it works for the whole circle rather than just the top half.)
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02:07:49 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But my point is, with this needlessly convoluted system of string functions, can we start to play with dy/dx of y = f(x) when the function is f : String → String?
02:08:07 <ais523> shachaf: the formula with sqrt also works for both halves :-P
02:08:19 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm not really interested in the topic, sorry
02:08:22 <shachaf> Depending on what you mean by sqrt.
02:09:28 <shachaf> Anyway, dy/dx = sin(x)/cos(y), at (0,pi/2), is 0/0
02:09:35 <shachaf> And the derivative is indeed not defined.
02:11:26 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> ...OK, on second thought, the GoJ is terrible. <-- that didn't take long
02:11:39 <shachaf> Oh, you wrote cos(x)+sin(y)=2
02:11:45 <shachaf> That's why it wasn't working.
02:12:06 <shachaf> But when cos(x)+sin(y)=2, cos(y) will always be 0
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02:17:37 <shachaf> I have more things on this topic but I'm not sure whether ais523 isn't interested in either one.
02:17:43 <shachaf> I'm curious about the "self-limiting" thing.
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02:20:13 <shachaf> Last time I was wondering about how this worked for second derivatives.
02:20:43 <ais523> I'm fairly sure it does but am possibly too tired to figure out how
02:20:56 <ais523> I think you have to take a limit /of/ a limit
02:21:03 <shachaf> What do you think about the notation d^2y/dx^2?
02:21:13 <ais523> which is why the d²y notation exists
02:21:22 <shachaf> Right, I believe that d(dy) has a meaning.
02:21:28 <shachaf> But why do you divide by dx twice?
02:21:29 <ais523> (specifically, it's d²y/(dx)²)
02:21:42 <ais523> bleh, I can't remember
02:21:49 <shachaf> And in particular if you work it out, you get an extra term.
02:21:50 <ais523> I knew the reason once, and it was a good one
02:21:53 <ais523> I just can't remember what it was
02:22:04 <shachaf> Which maybe should be 0 and maybe shouldn't? oerjan was saying something about it.
02:22:09 <shachaf> Say you parameterize everything in terms of dt.
02:22:32 <shachaf> So d(...) really means what people usually write as d(...)/dt
02:22:39 <HackEgo> Bowserinator: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:22:53 <ais523> Bowserinator: notionally it's about esoteric programming languages
02:22:59 <ais523> but it tends to go offtopic a lot
02:23:09 <shachaf> I think Leibniz notation isn't really too far from esoteric languages.
02:23:21 <ais523> right, the things we discuss are normally related to esolangs in some ways
02:23:29 <shachaf> Recently I learned a new word, "exoteric", meaning the opposite of esoteric.
02:23:34 <ais523> e.g. they're the result of applying an esolang frame of mind to something other than programming
02:23:41 <ais523> English is an esoteric natural language, for example :-P
02:24:52 <ais523> if you tried to design an esolang to work like English
02:25:01 <ais523> admittedly you'd probably end up with Perl, which is not quite esoteric
02:25:17 <ais523> (Larry Wall was a specialist on natural languages and used English as a model when creating Perl)
02:25:38 <shachaf> ais523: Anyway, I think you get: d(dy) = d(dy/dx)/dx^3 + (dy/dx) d(dx)
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02:26:41 <jeffl35> my bot has too many interpreters
02:26:47 <otherbot> jeffl35: echo ping pong eval flushq help list use store cash inv savecstate buy sell give kick ban unban op deop mode attack poke join part reload whois nick pyc pad pyr giac befr padclr lolr ><>r js rsc ul makeCmd userland rulc pnig
02:26:50 <otherbot> LEARN TO TYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!11!!!!1!!!
02:26:53 <ais523> jeffl35: hackego has way more
02:27:04 <shachaf> ais523: So d^2y/dx^2 = d(dy/dx)/dx + (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2
02:27:08 <jeffl35> ais523: yeah, probably, considering it's been in development for a few years
02:27:12 <shachaf> What's the meaning of that extra term?
02:27:28 <otherbot> Added 0 synonyms "integrate(NULL) Error: Bad Argument Value" // Time 0 // Total time 0
02:27:35 <ais523> jeffl35: the main bot in this channel for years was egobot
02:27:41 <ais523> hackego has all its interpreters
02:28:08 <shachaf> Wasn't bot spam supposed to go in #esoteric-blah, anyway?
02:28:27 <ais523> shachaf: #esoteric-blah is basically for anything that's particularly spammy that we don't want cluttering this channel
02:28:33 <ais523> like pasting entire text files directly into IRC
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02:28:50 <jeffl35> my bot has a bad habit of outputting whole stack traces to irc when run on the wrong node.js version
02:29:05 <ais523> its rules are very similar to #esoteric's except a) there's no rule against flooding (in fact, it's somewhat encouraged) and b) people hardly ever speak there unless a conversation gets moved there from here
02:29:30 <otherbot> Added 0 synonyms 5*x^2/2-4*x // Time 0.01 // Total time 0.01
02:29:46 <otherbot> Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added 0 synonyms dxdy // Time 0 // Total time 0
02:30:03 <otherbot> // Maximum number of parallel threads 8 Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added derivative
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02:30:17 <shachaf> ais523: Is (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2?
02:30:22 <jeffl35> ????????????????????????????????????
02:30:59 <shachaf> oerjan was pointing out some counterexample a few days ago.
02:31:11 <shachaf> Which led me to think that I wasn't sure about d^2x/dx^2
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02:33:08 <ais523> shachaf: good point, second derivative of x is 0
02:34:10 <ais523> which means that you can't treat that like a normal division
02:34:11 <shachaf> Say you parameterize it in t, so d means derivative with respect to t. x = t^2; d(dx) = 2; dx^2 = 4x^2; d^2x/dx^2 = 1/(2x^2)
02:34:34 <shachaf> So certainly it doesn't just naively work when you parameterize it like this.
02:38:31 <shachaf> If it's not normal division, what is it?
02:40:20 <shachaf> Say everything is parameterized in t, dy/dx = u. That means dy = u dx, so d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx)
02:40:28 <shachaf> Should that much be permitted?
02:41:18 <ais523> ugh, I'm too tired to figure this out
02:41:23 <ais523> also haven't had to calculus this much in years
02:41:32 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Fri Sep 30 02:41:32 2016
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02:56:40 <oerjan> shachaf: i assumed this was what those extra terms in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials were supposed to fix
02:56:58 <shachaf> oerjan: Didn't we have a counterexample?
02:57:00 <oerjan> (for the x not the independent variable case)
02:57:32 <shachaf> I mean, those extra terms were the same as the ones I had given before.
02:58:06 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i was all quacked out at that point
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03:02:50 <shachaf> I've forgotten the example. There were two of them.
03:04:50 <oerjan> i vaguely think my original example was based on assuming f''(x) = d^2 y / (dx)^2 held and getting a contradiction if dx is 0 because x = g(t) where g'(t) = 0.
03:06:13 <shachaf> OK, one example had x=t^2, y=t^3
03:06:17 <shachaf> Let me work through that again.
03:06:50 <oerjan> hm i suppose what happens with the expanded formula is that d^2 y does not determine f''(x)
03:08:01 <oerjan> instead, when dx = 0, you get f'(x) = d^2 y / d^2 x. which looks like l'hôpital.
03:09:02 <shachaf> Hmm, there's an easier way of looking at it, I guess. If d(dy/dx)/dx = d(dy)/dx^2, then d(u/v) = d(u)/v, which is obviously not true in general. In general d(u/v) = (v du - u dv)/v^2
03:09:22 <shachaf> Which is equal to d(u)/v when dv = 0
03:09:45 <oerjan> shachaf: oh, i still cannot get my head around trying to calculate second derivatives like d(dy/dx)/dx, because scope.
03:09:54 <shachaf> oerjan: What? There's no scope issue there.
03:10:14 <shachaf> If y is an expression in x, y = x^2, then dy/dx is also an expression in x, dy/dx = 2x
03:10:56 <shachaf> OK, I guess what you're saying is that there might be confusing shadowing going on there.
03:11:15 <shachaf> I'm hoping that that's not true but I can see the objection.
03:11:34 <shachaf> But I don't want to write f''(x), because y might not be a function of x
03:12:16 <oerjan> i think it might be worth avoiding explicit division.
03:12:55 <shachaf> Well, you can do it with products too.
03:13:05 <shachaf> Instead of dy/dx = u, write dy = u dx
03:13:25 <oerjan> that way, you won't divide by zeros
03:13:27 <shachaf> Then d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx)
03:14:11 <shachaf> If you could divide by dx^2 here, you would get d(dy)/dx^2 = du/dx + du d(dx)/dx^2
03:14:26 <shachaf> But that probably isn't necessary.
03:14:41 <oerjan> i think that's precisely the formula from wikipedia?
03:15:11 <shachaf> Sure, except I wrote u instead of f'(x)
03:16:23 <shachaf> Anyway: If dy = u dx, then d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx)
03:16:51 <oerjan> and we're allowed to replace du dx by f''(x) dx^2 assuming f''(x) exists, even if dx is 0
03:17:18 <shachaf> But that one only makes sense if y is a function of x.
03:17:46 <oerjan> no, because the ordinary chain rule works for first derivatives
03:18:05 <shachaf> Doesn't f only make sense if y = f(x)?
03:18:24 <oerjan> that's the assumption in the formula.
03:18:26 <shachaf> That's why I was avoiding it.
03:19:05 <oerjan> but if it isn't, then i'm not sure dy = u dx is conceptually true
03:19:24 <shachaf> Because y = f(t), x = g(t)
03:20:10 <shachaf> OK, I got the algebra wrong last time, I think.
03:20:22 <oerjan> ok, assuming dx/dt isn't 0 anywhere dy/dt isn't
03:21:12 <oerjan> or actually, if both are 0 you need l'hôpital again
03:21:26 <shachaf> d(dy) = 6t, du dx = 3t, u d(dx) = 3t
03:23:47 <shachaf> oerjan: So it's sounding like it actually is the same scope?
03:25:05 <shachaf> So the lesson here is that the notation d^2y/dx^2 is kind of broken.
03:25:32 <shachaf> In particular it only works when d^2x = 0?
03:25:43 <shachaf> But what does it mean for d^2x to be 0?
03:26:11 <oerjan> well it's true if x is the independent variable
03:26:37 <oerjan> the one everything bottoms out as functions of
03:26:37 <shachaf> I thought half the point of this notation was that you can just do these mafipulations on their own and they work.
03:26:53 <shachaf> I'm trying to get a parameterization-free version of it.
03:27:10 <oerjan> and then you need the d^2 x term, i guess.
03:28:19 <shachaf> It's even useful to know: The usual second derivative expression d^2y/dx^2 off by (dy/dx) (d^2x/dx^2)
03:28:26 <shachaf> What's the meaning of that?
03:29:10 <shachaf> I mean, that looks like an important expression, so where else does it come up?
03:31:37 <shachaf> Say I just have some expressions or functions or whatever else. How do I decide whether d^2x = 0?
03:31:49 <shachaf> In differential geometry, d^2 = 0 always, right? Are these related?
03:32:08 <oerjan> differential geometry is antisymmetric, i don't think this is
03:33:10 <shachaf> Maybe this is antisymmetric when you have multiple independent variables?
03:33:22 <shachaf> We've been making the assumptions that y and x are functions of the same thing.
03:34:36 <shachaf> On the other hand https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/ae52a2c75169e1884e87a001e385e94ce7164111 doesn't look very antisymmetric either...
03:35:00 <oerjan> i'm not sure what happens for second derivatives when you vary more than one independent variable, although there was some partial stuff in that wp section too
03:36:35 <shachaf> If dy = f'(x) dx, then dy dx = (f'(x) dx) dx and dx dy = dx (f'(x) dx)
03:37:20 <shachaf> And given that these things are linear, those should maybe be equal?
03:37:33 <shachaf> I guess it depends on how you define the product.
03:39:15 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_form says the exterior derivative "extends the differential of a function"
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04:00:17 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
04:00:43 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, did you slwd your own wisdom entry?
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04:10:46 <izalove> this torrent i just illegally downloaded was supposed to be evangelion in 720p but it's 960x720
04:11:31 <shachaf> maybe it didn't claim to be 16:9
04:11:43 <shachaf> i guess "4:3 720p" would be that
04:12:05 <shachaf> it's only off by a few pixels
04:12:37 <izalove> i'll ask for a full refund
04:16:21 <Jafet> full refund? what nerv.
04:25:01 <FreeFull> 720p is literally "720 vertical lines, progressive" (as opposed to interlaced)
04:25:12 <FreeFull> It could be just 1 pixel thick and still count
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04:28:30 <izalove> that's why i couldn't get a refund
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06:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> Is it appropriate just to say n! = gamma(n+1) and be done with it?
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07:27:34 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: only when the audience has enough knowledge about gamma function
07:46:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Biota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49824&oldid=30500 * Martin Ender * (+19)
07:47:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quipu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49825&oldid=45982 * Martin Ender * (+39)
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07:49:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Marbelous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49826&oldid=45195 * Martin Ender * (+57)
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08:28:48 <hppavilion[1]> I vote we make Abortion clinics (and anything associated with birth control) use a variant symbol of the Rod of Aesculapius that replaces the snake with a wire coathanger. Because I'm a bad person.
08:31:15 <shachaf> Do you actually mean that you're a bad person?
08:31:53 <shachaf> If so, saying you're a bad person doesn't exempt you from any of the consequence of acting in a bad way.
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08:42:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49827&oldid=35363 * Martin Ender * (+57)
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09:21:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RUBE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49828&oldid=33697 * Martin Ender * (+39)
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10:05:20 <shachaf> oerjan: So when people differentiate twice, they write (d/dx) . (d/dx)
10:05:32 <shachaf> (d/dx) really means (/dx) . d
10:05:48 <shachaf> So differentiating twice is (*1/dx) . d . (*1/dx) . d
10:06:36 <shachaf> If 1/dx is a constant, then the multiplication commutes with d. If not then you need to add an extra term. to account for how it changes.
10:07:20 <shachaf> ((d^2/dx^2) means ((*1/x) . (*1/x) . d . d), of course.)
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10:13:06 <int-e> and you're in somewhat murky territory (treating d as a separate operator), but I suppose you know that.
10:13:33 <shachaf> Yes, see either conversation with ais523 a few hours ago or the conversation with oerjan a few days ago.
10:13:45 <shachaf> It's somewhat murky but I'm trying to figure out how d behaves in order to make it less murky.
10:14:00 <shachaf> In order to make it work I've been saying that x and y are both secretly defined in terms of t.
10:14:17 <shachaf> d(e) means what people would normally write as de/dt
10:14:44 <shachaf> And everything works pretty well, d(x^2) = 2x dx and so on.
10:15:57 <shachaf> But the second derivative of y in terms of x isn't d^2y/dx^2, it's d^2y/dx^2 - (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2
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10:17:25 <shachaf> Or you can just say d(dy) = d(dy/dx) dx + (dy/dx) d(dx)
10:18:55 <shachaf> Is it the case that (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2?
10:20:40 <shachaf> If y is in terms of an independent variable x, (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2, and the second derivative is d^2y/dx^2. So f''(x)/f'(x)^2 = d^2y/dy^2?
10:21:14 <Taneb> d(2x)/dx = 2; d((2x)^2)/d(x^2) = d(4x^2)/d(x^2) = 4 = 2^2
10:21:16 <shachaf> Does f''(x)/f'(x)^2 have a standard name?
10:21:39 <Taneb> So, that's one black crow
10:21:58 <Taneb> shachaf, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox
10:22:38 <shachaf> I'm not following. Are you saying that there's a flaw or that what you just said is irrelevant?
10:23:34 <shachaf> d(4x^2)/d(x^2) is certainly 4.
10:23:58 <shachaf> d(4u)/du = 4 for any choice of u
10:24:25 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm saying it's a tiiiiny bit of evidence that's ultimately useless
10:24:55 <Taneb> <shachaf> Is it the case that (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2?
10:25:53 <Taneb> Ah, I misinterpreted you
10:26:24 <Taneb> This isn't something I know very well at all I'm afraid
10:27:43 <shachaf> The question I asked was kind of meaningless in itself.
10:28:21 <shachaf> Taneb: Wait, didn't you invent D-modules?
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10:28:39 <shachaf> D-modules were the original tanebvention.
10:29:00 <shachaf> Your name is right there on the Wikipedia page.
10:33:15 <Taneb> shachaf, that was a long time ago, I'm very rusty
10:33:56 <shachaf> Taneb: are you interested in the lentil stew i made in the pressure cooker today
10:34:32 <int-e> this reminds me that I wanted to understand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_ring a while ago...
10:34:52 <int-e> (well, the concept, not necessarily the wikipedia page)
10:35:04 <shachaf> what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_ring
10:35:39 <int-e> No I wasn't reminded of that at all until you brought it up.
10:36:17 <int-e> webrings were kind of cute
10:36:37 <shachaf> Oh, this seems interesting.
10:37:14 <shachaf> I didn't know people talked about "local" behavior in purely algebraic structures like rings.
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11:03:03 <shachaf> Say y=sin(x). Then d^2y/dy^2 = -tan(x)/cos(x)?
11:19:05 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/hoi4uk.PNG
11:19:24 <\oren\> I think the uk has done well foer itself this time
11:20:28 <Taneb> I never got the hang of HOI4
11:20:40 <\oren\> the trick is to use lots of nukes I find
11:21:00 <\oren\> annihilate anything even resembling industry
11:21:08 <Taneb> Historically only two were used
11:21:55 <\oren\> I used uh... well, basically several on every city in continental europe...
11:22:18 <Taneb> Could you use strategic bombing instead?
11:22:48 <\oren\> but I used nuclear ballistic missiles
11:23:02 <Taneb> That's a bit of a nuclear option, so to speak
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11:23:30 <\oren\> I also used them to soften up the maginot line for my advance into germany
11:25:01 <\oren\> hoi4 doesn't seem to model the problems resulting from driving a tank into a fallout zone mere hours after the nuke was used
11:25:31 <Taneb> I suspect that if it did you'd be playing this somewhat differently
11:25:52 <Taneb> Or at least not telling your tank drivers everything
11:28:10 <\oren\> Ooh, with all this territory, I can create various countries with stupid borders, causing hilarous problems.
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11:28:38 <Taneb> Just like the UK did in real life!
11:28:50 <Taneb> (who the hell thought East Pakistan was a good idea)
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11:30:19 <Taneb> (and whatever happened in the middle east)
11:30:29 <Taneb> My best game of HOI4 I think I was playing as Iran
11:30:39 <\oren\> I creared west germany. but its capital and only major city is Arad
11:31:03 <Taneb> I went fascist and took most of the middle east that wasn't British or French
11:32:33 <Taneb> Then I ended up at war with the Soviet Union and realised not having manpower could be an issue
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11:37:35 <\oren\> I know what I'll do. I'll try to fill up every building slot in my giant territory, then create a new set of european countries
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11:51:39 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/hoi4uk.PNG <-- here's where I'm at now
11:55:19 <boily> that's a very big UK...
11:57:24 <\oren\> I may try to make it bigger by killing the USA
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12:02:52 <FireFly> United Kingdoms of Eurasia-Africa
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12:37:17 <izalove> i have 32 bytes. what's the best way rotate them right by 123?
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13:42:25 <myname> how do i celebrate the day i will be able to breath through my nose again?
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14:49:36 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, did you slwd your own wisdom entry? <-- see `? overlord hth
14:55:40 <HackEgo> Evil overlords do evil acts like taking over the world, kicking puppies, and changing their own wisdom entries.
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15:00:27 <HackEgo> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
15:00:32 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
15:00:37 <lambdabot> Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it.
15:00:45 <lambdabot> Source not found. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it?
15:00:49 <lambdabot> Source not found. You untyped fool!
15:00:52 <lambdabot> Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another!
15:01:05 <lambdabot> Source not found. Abort, Retry, Panic?
15:01:06 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
15:01:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. My brain just exploded
15:01:11 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
15:01:13 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
15:01:15 <lambdabot> Source not found. Do you think like you type?
15:01:18 <oerjan> why would you expect number literals to have sources
15:02:11 <oerjan> also, a certain fake einstein quote comes to mind.
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15:05:27 <oerjan> hm, well actually lambdabot _did_ respond differently.
15:05:44 <HackEgo> 122) <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" \ 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and
15:05:55 <HackEgo> 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
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15:44:02 <izalove> my eax isn't that large <.<
16:04:42 <myname> izalove: how is your rax too large and your eax not large enough?
16:07:00 <Taneb> Would that I knew x86 to help :(
16:07:15 <int-e> right, I should've suggested ymm0
16:08:15 <int-e> oh and they have zmmi as well... what will they use for 1024 bit registers?
16:08:35 <Taneb> @djinn ((a -> b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
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16:09:07 <FireFly> following the x,y,z,w convention for 4D coordinates
16:12:17 <myname> interesting... i cannot smell yet but i can somehow "taste" that the tissues i use have some kind of balsam herbs in them
16:14:26 * moonythedwarf is still trying to figure out how to make and present proof of turing completeness for gravbox (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravbox)
16:15:14 <myname> you should put urls in <> rather than ()
16:16:19 <myname> x> is the official(tm) way to do that
16:16:36 <myname> most software recognizes that and does not make the > as part of the link
16:16:52 <Taneb> @djinn a -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> c
16:16:55 <myname> the ) however will be made part of the link somewhere
16:16:56 <moonythedwarf> oerjan suggusted fractran, but managing the value might be a issue, any better lanugage to use to prove turing completeness?
16:17:59 <oerjan> what's hard about managing the value, just keep it on top of the stack
16:19:20 <oerjan> ais idea is if you want to avoid bignums
16:20:22 <moonythedwarf> well i _dont_ want to. *me goes off to translatea fractran program to gravbox
16:21:43 <int-e> what happens on division by 0?
16:22:01 <oerjan> shouldn't be an issue with a normal fractran program
16:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49829&oldid=49822 * Moon * (+103) Minor instruction change
16:22:33 <moonythedwarf> int-e: depends on interp sadly, most likely a error
16:23:44 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: that's not minor, now you have a full queue i think
16:24:30 <oerjan> unless you don't actually remove the original second to bottom, in which case it just became useless.
16:25:07 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: also, this will be much more awkward to use when you _do_ want to manipulate as a stack.
16:26:18 <oerjan> also that phrasing is pretty confusing.
16:26:36 <int-e> speaking of confusing phrasing, what does "divide from" mean?
16:27:33 <oerjan> yeah there are also plenty of commands that don't say whether they delete their arguments
16:27:56 <oerjan> although it would be pretty awkward if they didn't
16:29:20 * oerjan recommends forthy stack notation. see e.g. Underload or Glass pages.
16:30:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49830&oldid=49829 * Moon * (-106)
16:32:08 <int-e> so basically you have *one* scratch register now
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16:34:10 <int-e> now if we could somehow pop a value without any other effect that could be used to swap the top two elements of the stack, hmm
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16:34:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49831&oldid=49830 * Moon * (+3)
16:35:43 <oerjan> oh actually there's a % command
16:36:14 <int-e> (but : has just changed once again)
16:36:43 <moonythedwarf> oerjan: you pointed out a way for me to cut out % :P now its gone because you pointed out a alternative, or should i keep it
16:37:04 <myname> you don't have to be as minimal as possible
16:37:41 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: well technically 0*+ only works if there's at least two stack elements to start with
16:38:32 <int-e> but in the context where one treats the bottom element of the stack as a scratch register that's true already, so it was perfectly in line with what I needed
16:38:44 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: also, int-e pointed out how to implement the top 2 swap using the top and bottom swap
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16:38:53 <int-e> or wanted... I don't really need any of this.
16:39:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49832&oldid=49831 * Moon * (-3) Reverted
16:41:15 <oerjan> int-e: i don't think your :0*+:^: can be right because it deletes the bottom of the stack
16:41:38 <int-e> oerjan: it's a scratch register
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16:42:24 <int-e> (My idea was to just not use the bottom of the stack for anything besides temporary storage.)
16:43:11 <int-e> but yes, I could've mentioned that.
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21:04:21 <zzo38> In the rule update bulletin for Magic: the Gathering, they mention that the first card that created any tokens did use the term "create", although they changed it and now they changed it back to "create".
21:05:25 <lambdabot> boily asked 4d 19h 58m 4s ago: hezzo38. are you unprovable?
21:05:26 <lambdabot> wob_jonas said 4d 59m 1s ago: You know that Agner Fog's calling conventions manual http://www.agner.org/optimize/#manual_call_conv describes most of the details of the schemes used by popular C++
21:05:26 <lambdabot> compilers, right? In theory that allows you to call C++ functions, but \
21:05:26 <lambdabot> wob_jonas said 4d 58m 43s ago: it doesn't allow you to access a lot of structures defined by the C++ standard library, because the ABI for that is decided not by the mangling, but by the struct
21:05:26 <lambdabot> declarations, inline function definitions, and other declarations and macro definitions in the headers, and Agner's manual doesn't describe that because it would be almost imp
21:05:27 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3d 9h 32m 40s ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials
21:06:04 <shachaf> zzo38: As that page points out, d^2y/dx^2 = d(dy/dx)/dx + (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2
21:06:50 <shachaf> Or just d^2y = d(dy/dx) dx + (dy/dx) d^2x
21:07:55 <zzo38> Yes I did read that now
21:09:27 <zzo38> Yes, OK now I can understand better
21:12:24 <shachaf> How can you tell whether d^2x = 0?
21:12:35 <shachaf> Is (dy/dx)^2 = (dy^2/dx^2)?
21:13:21 <shachaf> Say d^2x = 0. Then (d^2y/dx^2)/((dy/dx)^2) = (d^2y/dx^2)/(dy^2/dx^2) = d^2y/dy^2?
21:13:49 <shachaf> If y = f(x), then d^2y/dy^2 would be f''(x)/f'(x)^2?
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22:56:51 <HackEgo> obell//The obell is what we ring each time a new strip of the o webcomic is published.
22:58:08 <zzo38> When at library recently I have read book about GURPS; there is a lot of stuff there, but some things it doesn't seems to say such as about defining a group of powers that share the number of limited use per day, or limited number of uses per day of an attack that only expends a usage if the attack hits, or for an advantage or disadvantage to enable, disable, or alter another advantage or disadvantage
22:58:23 <shachaf> `learn OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList.
22:58:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'ol': OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList.
22:59:20 <boily> I like GURPS. it has Montréal as a city-state ^^
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23:39:30 <HackEgo> Fri Sep 30 22:39:17 UTC 2016
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23:40:38 <shachaf> The Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Sixteen
23:41:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i am eagerly looking forward to my time of lordship hth
23:41:20 <shachaf> that would be The Year of Our Overlord
23:41:31 <HackEgo> Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
23:41:37 <oerjan> shachaf: just the month, for now.
23:42:04 <shachaf> The Month of Our Lord October
23:42:13 <HackEgo> password of the month? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:42:22 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
23:42:27 <oerjan> PRAY THAT I DON'T MAKE IT A RED ONE
23:42:53 <int-e> by all means go ahead...
23:43:02 <oerjan> shachaf: changing it before the month starts by HackEgo's time is scow, of course.
23:43:14 <int-e> it'll just make me even more glad that I'm filtering colors.
23:43:53 <shachaf> `learn The password of the month is johansen
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23:46:31 <oerjan> `learn_append int-e Hen gillar inte färger.
23:46:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'int-e': int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger.
23:47:19 * oerjan is pleased to have spelled that correctly before checking
23:47:42 <int-e> hmm, "he does not approve of colors"?
23:48:48 <shachaf> Hen kommer att spränga solen?
23:49:09 <shachaf> heute die Welt, morgen das Sonnensystem
23:49:24 <HackEgo> The password of the month is au cœur de septembre
23:50:10 <int-e> `cwlprits password
23:50:18 <HackEgo> fizzie evilipse oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan gamemanj int-e oerjan int-e oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
23:51:22 <oerjan> i was not aware of the approve meaning. i have a hunch it might be archaic or very formal. any swedes who can tell?
23:51:42 <shachaf> The same as the regular one.
23:52:54 <shachaf> So you mean dyadic rather than monadic.
23:52:57 <oerjan> although if you want a real number result, that's just a "norm".
23:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It does, but if there's anything remotely like it it'd be nice.
23:53:44 <oerjan> then you would interpret the two arguments as a point in the plane.
23:54:19 <oerjan> euclidean norm is pretty common, and the same as complex absolute value.
23:54:26 <myname> Gonwild is a place for closed, Euclidean Geometric shapes to exchange their nth terms for karma; showing off their edges in a comfortable environment without pressure.
23:55:34 -!- Menphis has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
23:56:19 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it could be a sort of... relative value? a||b is the distance of a from b without sign?
23:57:39 <shachaf> APL defines ∣B to be absolute value, and A∣B to be residue: B modulo A
23:58:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well that's just abs(b-a)
23:58:28 <boily> olsner: hellolsner. are you the Only Swede?
23:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't matter how trivial of a difference it is; a-b is just a+(-b)
23:58:58 <int-e> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.03.14 has context for the sun thing (13:51:25 ff.)
23:59:01 <hppavilion[1]> (Though whether a-b or -n came first is debatable...)
23:59:05 <boily> Firellofly. are you Both Swede?
23:59:15 <int-e> (I had to remind myself)
23:59:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: he's doing a lot of sweding
23:59:57 <oerjan> FireFly: do you know if the "approve of" meaning of "gilla" is used in ordinary swedish?