00:01:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, maybe we should start storing Ozone that we can fire into the atmosphere when needed
00:05:35 <wob_jonas> Taneb: sure, it already includes http://oeis.org/A107357 and http://oeis.org/A053169
00:06:14 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, that's the original phrasing of the puzzle.
00:06:30 <shachaf> int-e: But it turns out that Wikipedia is wrong, and it says "universality" instead of "non-universality".
00:07:00 <shachaf> I.e. universality is coNP-complete
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00:11:39 <int-e> shachaf: yes, I saw that clarification yesterday, thanks!
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00:34:07 <Xnuk> How do you pronounce ///? http://esolangs.org/wiki////
00:36:41 <Xnuk> oerjan: thanks
00:37:19 <HackEgo> Xnuk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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00:49:58 <hppavilion[1]> They must have a hard time playing DnD with English majors
00:51:10 <shachaf> I don't think English majors are particularly pedantic.
00:51:23 <shachaf> But surely they have trouble playing in German.
00:51:52 <shachaf> I learned that fact from The Onion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAa8Rf_a_Mo
00:54:38 <oerjan> de:die is not a homophone of en:die hth
00:55:49 <shachaf> And you think it's the latter than they never say?
00:56:05 <shachaf> Given that they speak English and not German, the former seems more likely.
00:56:05 <oerjan> i dunno, i have no idea what goonies are.
00:56:23 <lambdabot> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089218/
00:57:23 <wob_jonas> wow. this travel insurance actually has a price per day that isn't an integer number of HUF. you rarely see that nowadays.
00:57:53 <wob_jonas> most things are rounded to integer HUF, except for very cheap things like per minute prices of mobile phone calls.
00:59:18 <shachaf> HUF is what came before HUG?
01:00:02 <shachaf> Even 0.01 USD is too fine-grained for most things.
01:01:13 <pikhq> It's not that uncommon for currencies to be similarly overly-fine-grained though.
01:01:44 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sure, which is why the smallest cash coin is 5 HUF, and most bank transactions and similar are restricted to multiples of 1 HUF, but prices can still be fine grained even though they're usually multiples of 1 HUF for cheap things and multiples of 10 HUF for expensive things.
01:01:50 <pikhq> 1 KRW < 0.001 USD, for example.
01:02:11 <shachaf> How fine-grained should stock prices be?
01:02:16 <wob_jonas> You can have prices to high resolution and round for the whole transaction.
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01:03:19 <pikhq> Though, the KRW no longer has 1 KRW coins in circulation...
01:03:20 <shachaf> Until 2001, US stock prices were measured in sixteenths of a dollar.
01:03:26 <shachaf> Now they're measured in cents.
01:03:57 <shachaf> I mean the finest granularity.
01:04:25 <shachaf> It's called the tick size, and there are all sorts of trade-offs for deciding what it should be.
01:04:35 <shachaf> It seems silly to have the same tick size for expensive stocks and cheap stocks, though.
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01:07:34 <wob_jonas> In particular, the price of gas (petrol) for cars is shown per liters, and is usually shown as a multiple of 0.001 or 0.01 HUF. The price of household water and sewage in this location is 469.06 HUF per cubic meter.
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01:38:17 <hppavilion[1]> I declare the winner of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njos57IJf-0 [Steve Jobs vs Bill Gates. Epic Rap Battles of History Season 2.] to be Richard Stallman
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02:28:23 <Sgeo> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bizarre-proof-to-torment-mathematicians-for-years-to-come/
02:28:27 <boily> there was a greater mummy behind khufu... holy fungot I didn't see it...
02:28:28 <fungot> boily: next it unveiled the latest to benefit of any party other than ena also sold more to do the right thing on the sidelines for any period. if you have not had any more.
02:28:31 <Sgeo> So, almost like the proof is bad code?
02:28:49 <boily> fungot: I'm still alive!
02:28:50 <fungot> boily: for complete information on the first is the pulmonary injury by capacity and fuel to the rate to a policy what policy: " section vii of the bond, the treasurer of each company
02:33:26 <boily> okay, not alive. got berserk and petrified at the same time.
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03:23:40 <Cale> Sgeo: Or code written in a programming language that nobody understands except Mochizuki
03:24:13 <Cale> Sgeo: I think it would be pretty hilarious if this was all an elaborate troll
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03:40:49 <Jafet> there are computer proofs written in languages that nobody else understands
03:41:17 <Jafet> the proofs work when you check them, but no one knows why
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05:23:34 <HackEgo> The password of the month is late.
05:30:11 <oerjan> <quintopia> it's too easy for alt+5 to slip and become alt+f4==instakill app <-- that's pretty much how my hydra died, except with fn instead of alt.
05:30:49 <quintopia> oerjan: well, killing the hydra was the goal, right?
05:30:54 <oerjan> and f5 instead of 5, probably.
05:31:00 <oerjan> quintopia: not quite that way.
05:31:24 <quintopia> oerjan: picky. just be happy the goal was accomplished
05:40:14 <baordog> oerjan: You cracking stuff?
05:44:23 <oerjan> ...maybe there was a ^O.
05:51:02 <zzo38> In my Linux system though, ALT+F4 has no special use. (When in text mode, it switches to screen 4, but in X you need CTRL+ALT+F4 to switch to screen 4.) (But I think the default window manager and desktop environment for Ubuntu does use ALT+F4 and some other stuff similar to Windows to make it easier for Windows users, but I have uninstalled those things.)
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06:56:10 <orin> It is a bad idea to watch love live and fly an airplane at the same time
06:56:37 <orin> i crashed into a mountain
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08:03:11 <orin> Oh crap it happened
08:04:35 <orin> I was watching anime and --oh shit I've actually been to that exact place in tokyo where the character's standing!
08:04:51 <int-e> shachaf: okay, in the end I think membership in coNP is easier than coNP-hardness. (I don't know an NP-complete problem that embeds naturally)
08:05:13 <orin> really weird feeling of deja vu
08:06:20 <orin> what would you call deja vu induced by a cartoon
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08:09:59 <shachaf> int-e: I found an article that has a reduction from 3SAT
08:10:56 <int-e> does it work for arbitrary CNFs or is the size of clauses actually used?
08:11:02 <orin> whoever drew this must have been sketching from the balcony of the McDonalds that overlooks Shinjuku
08:12:03 <shachaf> I think it'd work for arbitrary CNFs?
08:12:52 <shachaf> But I'm typing on my phone at the train station. Will probably be able to say more later.
08:13:49 <int-e> shachaf: then it may be doing a similar thing to what I've dreamed up.
08:13:50 <shachaf> Anyway the coNP argument is probably something like "raise the adjacency matrix to the nth power"
08:17:33 <int-e> Hmm, the current Schlock Mercenary story arc would fit perfectly under "Force Multiplication". Too bad that book title is already taken within the series :P
08:18:10 <moon_> Im trying to run a game in a way that people can play it all together through telnet. How should i do this? Im thinking bash
08:19:41 <oerjan> isn't that what MUDs are for.
08:20:24 <moon_> Im trying to hae fun by haveing a bunch of people play a single instance of dwarf fortress over telnet
08:22:03 * oerjan points at the non-present ais523
08:22:09 <farrioth> And good luck getting that going over telnet...
08:23:01 <oerjan> could screen or tmux work that way?
08:23:06 <farrioth> Dwarf Fortress is a graphical program (even when not using graphical tiles).
08:23:16 <moon_> Linux has text mode
08:24:02 <moon_> Change the graphics setting from 2D to TEXT
08:24:56 <farrioth> You're not mistaking the normal (non-tiles) mode for an actual console-based mode?
08:25:10 <moon_> i've used it over ssh
08:25:55 <moon_> and i helped develop a discord bot that has a selfupdating (message ediT) emulated terminal, it could display df too
08:26:08 <moon_> the bot hasent been on for a while
08:26:40 <moon_> well, how would i broker it using bash, i have ncat (that comes with nmap) if that helps
08:28:37 <farrioth> Hmm, documentation says, "primitive ncurses output". You are correct.
08:29:10 <farrioth> You'd probably want to use whatever it is that nethack@alt.org uses, let me see what it's called.
08:29:25 <moon_> no, single game instance
08:29:33 <moon_> im nit running a hoard of df lo,
08:29:36 <farrioth> Although you want everyone controlling one instance, right, not just providing it as a service?
08:30:42 <moon_> And what would i do with the screen? I need to know how to broker it
08:31:03 <farrioth> I'm not really sure what you mean by broker here.
08:31:31 <moon_> Be a server, transmit the games data to the users and give the game their input
08:32:26 <farrioth> So you're just connecting multiple terminal endpoints to the same program and sending that all the input from all the terminals?
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08:35:37 <farrioth> Just have everyone connect to the same screen session, I suppose.
08:36:37 <moon_> But i dont know how i should do that in bash, or is there something about screens i dont know
08:36:59 <farrioth> I don't think you need to involve bash at all.
08:37:44 <moon_> What should i use? Node.js and C++ are my main kanguages, am i just looking at this wrong?
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08:38:35 <farrioth> I'm not sure what part of it you feel requires any programming.
08:39:04 <moon_> Hi hppavilion[1] .
08:41:26 <moon_> You know a good way to allow multiple people to telnet to a system and use one instance of a prgram, in this case dwaf fortress?
08:42:13 <farrioth> What was wrong with my suggestion? :/
08:42:59 <moon_> I really just dont get how im going to USE the screen.
08:43:16 <oerjan> he means "screen", the program.
08:43:39 <moon_> I know, i dont know what to do with it afterwrds
08:44:07 <farrioth> So people log in and then all connect to the same screen session. Their input is all sent to whatever's running in it, and they all see the output of whatever's running in it.
08:44:22 <moon_> Problem: open server
08:44:53 <farrioth> So you run Dwarf Fortress inside screen, then people log in, and attach to that screen session.
08:45:09 <farrioth> I'd personally do it over ssh, but you could use telnet if you wanted to.
08:45:37 <moon_> Err, but then i have to give them access to the system, i only want them to have dwarf fortress
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08:47:01 <farrioth> They're always going to need to log in to the system, you just need to stop them from running anything other than screen or Dwarf Fortress.
08:47:20 <farrioth> How to stop screen from being able to execute arbitrary commands is a good question, though.
08:49:19 <moon_> Thought so, i just want to do something with the output, send it to the users, and get input
08:52:34 <farrioth> Unbinding C-a : should be sufficient, I think.
08:52:55 <farrioth> But you'll probably want to unbind some other stuff too so users don't try and do annoying stuff.
08:54:01 <moon_> I personally think that adding screen is a bit of a waste, i dont see where its needes in the input => program => output => repeat loop
08:57:01 <farrioth> It effectively virtualizes a terminal and allows multiple endpoints to be connected to it.
08:57:18 <farrioth> In other words, it lets people log in on multiple terminals and see the same thing.
09:01:41 <izabera> last week i was testing stuff and added debug code that dumped a structure to /tmp/izdump
09:01:50 <izabera> it turns out that shit is now packaged and shipped -_-
09:02:15 <farrioth> It looks like you can actually use screen's builtin acl support to stop users from executing commands.
09:03:18 <moon_> Hmm.. damn a example script eould help lol, but ok, im following
09:03:35 <izabera> google isn't providing solutions for "unship code"
09:08:30 <farrioth> I'll have a go at one, hold on.
09:08:59 <int-e> did it brick the devices? no -> push update to the previous release. yes -> cash in your stock in the company and move far away
09:09:38 <izabera> int-e: it's not my fault! that wasn't supposed to end up in prod
09:09:59 <b_jonas> My "f" finger hurts. I wonder if I should hold a pen between that finger and the left thumb to make sure I'm not typing with it, because typing just makes it hurt more.
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09:11:25 <Jafet> you could remap f to capslock (and r and v, for good measure.)
09:12:01 <farrioth> moon_: To be honest I think this will do it:
09:13:56 <farrioth> Unless ^d does something in Dwarf Fortress; I can't remember.
09:23:33 <moon_> Dwarf fortress overrides ^d
09:25:28 <farrioth> Pick some other keystroke it doesn't use, then (if there are any :p).
09:25:51 <farrioth> You could use a prefix like screen normally does, it would make the config longer is all.
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09:36:12 <hppavilion[1]> ...why the hell does the H○ scale convert real-world feet to scale-world millimeters?
09:38:49 <farrioth> Because 16.5 mm is a nice value for rail spacing?
09:39:18 <hppavilion[1]> Personally, I think all railroad models should be in 87:1
09:39:21 <izabera> `` echo open shell? Hopefully no # moon_
09:40:03 <moon_> Ik, but thats sandboxed, and so is shbot, i didnt know what you used
09:40:12 <farrioth> hppavilion[1]: 87:1 not 1:87? :p
09:40:18 <izabera> shbot has a much stricter sandbox
09:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: Your model has to be larger than the original.
09:42:25 <hppavilion[1]> I think a good xkcdsw would be http://xkcd.com/1294/, but "telescope" becomes "dildo"
09:44:04 <myname> railroad models should be 1:1
09:48:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: All railroad models should be made in 1:89+41i
09:50:58 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i am okay with that
09:51:31 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps model train layouts should be logarithmic?
09:52:58 <moon_> You know what, just plain out how do you stream a program to multiple users using telnet?
09:54:39 <hppavilion[1]> Interestingly, I was introduced to Never Gonna Give You Up by anything other than 4chan
09:55:30 <myname> that's easy if you don't 4chan
10:00:07 <farrioth> moon_: Normally you don't need to do such a thing, since for most services you'd fork per connection.
10:00:39 <farrioth> In fact, I can't really think of a use case apart for something like this or nethack@alt.org, etc.
10:00:49 <farrioth> I'd be interested if there are, thoguh.
10:05:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, but the first time I heard it was in the movie "Miracle in Toyworld" or something like that
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15:44:55 <izabera> æ ø å you ain't got the æ ø å
16:17:44 <HackEgo> olist 1046: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:20:27 <lambdabot> KATL 011911Z 24006KT 10SM -RA FEW020 SCT075 BKN100 BKN250 28/24 A3008 RMK AO2 RAB02 TSE11 TS MOV SE CB DSNT NE & DSNT S-SW-W TCU DSNT N-NE & DSNT SW SHRA DSNT S-SW-W P0000 T02830239
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20:36:26 <lambdabot> LIPZ 011920Z 03009KT CAVOK 24/15 Q1015 NOSIG
20:37:15 <Taneb> Going there on Wednesday
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20:40:58 <izabera> and checking @metar now helps?
20:41:51 <shachaf> And saying "and checking @metar now helps?" helps?
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20:48:34 <Taneb> izabera, I have a friend near there right now
20:48:40 <Taneb> Also I can't actually read meta
20:48:47 <Taneb> It just makes me feel like I'm doing something
20:49:15 <Taneb> And the friend is closer to LIPB anyway
20:49:28 <lambdabot> LIPB 011850Z VRB02KT 9999 SCT090 24/14 Q1015
20:49:44 <shachaf> Taneb: All you need to do is look at the two numbers separated by a /
20:49:55 <shachaf> The first one is temperature.
20:50:04 <shachaf> That's all I know about METAR.
20:50:29 <izabera> the second number is the avg weight of the pilots in the airport
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20:50:36 <HackEgo> metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
20:51:00 <izabera> the second number is the avg weight of the pilots in the airport, also called the dew point
20:51:02 <shachaf> But I didn't know what dew point was.
20:51:22 <Phantom_Hoover> the dew point is apparently the point at which you get dew
20:51:52 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s# w# metar, w#
20:51:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, are you sure you'd never invent a genetic algorithm with sexual reproduction?
20:53:00 <shachaf> Wait, Taneb invented Tanebventions?
20:53:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, fairly
20:53:28 <Taneb> With modern technology, sex is completely unnecessary for algorithms, you see
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20:53:58 <Taneb> Although I've not a clue about genetic programming
20:54:09 <Taneb> (doing a module on it next term)
20:54:31 <Taneb> izabera, have you been inventing tanebventions
20:54:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, there you go
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20:56:00 <shachaf> You just put the tanebvention in the wisdom entry.
20:56:05 <shachaf> Taneb is the one who has to do the hard work.
20:56:59 <Taneb> shachaf, what izabera is planning is to invent something and convince me and everyone else that I was the one who invented it
20:57:19 <shachaf> D-modules were the first Tanebvention, right?
20:57:29 <izabera> something something three headed dildos ?
20:57:53 <Taneb> shachaf, I believe so
20:58:03 <shachaf> I think that falls outside the purview of Tanebventions.
20:58:42 <Taneb> izabera, I'm no expert but I think three headed dildos involve sex
20:59:55 <shachaf> I think Taneb would rather just uninvent it.
21:00:24 <shachaf> Taneb never invented it in the first place.
21:00:35 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:01:02 <Taneb> Can someone who knows the HackEgo magic change that eight to a nine please
21:02:03 <shachaf> Taneb: The magic is this: `slwd taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:02:27 <Taneb> `swld taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:02:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swld: not found
21:02:51 <shachaf> but you gotta type it correctly
21:02:54 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:03:01 <Taneb> `slwd taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:03:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:03:16 <Taneb> shachaf, I haven't invented typing things correctly yet tht
21:03:44 <Taneb> It's hth but I haven't invented typing things correctly
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21:40:01 <moon_> I've started playing around in MSDOS 6.22
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21:40:51 <int-e> the best OS ever to come out of the house of Microsoft
21:41:10 <int-e> (I hope my University OS professor doesn't read this ;-) )
21:41:56 <moon_> lol what does he prefer win10?
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21:44:00 <int-e> But DOS offers almost none of the defining features of an OS, most notably it does not offer any multitasking or isolation of multiple processes or access control.
21:44:18 <shachaf> I prefer Windows 10 to MS-DOS 6.22
21:44:40 <int-e> That MS botnet is scary.
21:45:49 <int-e> (I honestly believe that this term is 100% accurate in this context: It is software that phones home automatically and updates itself with whatever code its masters provide, automatically.)
21:46:22 <int-e> Of course Android isn't much different.
21:46:50 <int-e> Most Linux distros on the other hand, are... though perhaps not different enough to matter in practice.
21:49:37 <shachaf> All software is becoming web software.
21:50:13 <int-e> "web software" is not a meaningful term to me.
21:50:59 <moon_> hmm... Hey, b_jonas, you here?
21:51:15 <shachaf> I mean software written in JavaScritp and delivered to a web browser.
21:51:35 <shachaf> Well, being written in JavaScript isn't even that important.
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21:52:08 <int-e> But it kind of depends on how good the sandboxing is.
21:52:17 <int-e> And what you do with it...
21:52:31 <int-e> ...a web online game I have no trouble with.
21:53:05 <int-e> ...a web office program that may cease existing tomorrow... that's an entirely different matter.
21:53:14 <int-e> but not really part of the botnet problem in my view
21:53:24 <int-e> (dual, if you like)
21:53:33 <shachaf> It has the same auto-update issue.
21:53:37 <Zekka> int-e: W10 is a botnet under those terms imho, it's just hypothetically a desirable one
21:53:46 <shachaf> Every time you start up the software, you fetch a brand new copy from the web server.
21:53:48 <int-e> shachaf: yes it does, hence the sandboxing
21:54:05 <shachaf> OK, so run Windows 10 in a VM, I guess?
21:54:21 <int-e> shachaf: which allows me to think of it as an extension of *THEIR* server using some of my own computing resources
21:54:39 <Zekka> there is lots of software that updates the same way -- the reason a botnet is evil is because it does evil things with your computer resources
21:54:49 <shachaf> I'm sure Microsoft would like for you to think of Windows the same way.
21:55:15 <int-e> yes, Win 10 in a VM is an option... well... once we find a secure hypervisor. :P
21:55:16 <Zekka> (disclaimer: MS employee here)
21:55:36 <int-e> Zekka: the technology is neutral.
21:55:58 <Zekka> FWIW I'm not qualified to assess if W10 is doing evil -- I have friends who worked on it who said the parts they worked on did not appear to be doing evil
21:56:02 <int-e> and from a technological perspective there's not enough of a difference that it matters to me.
21:56:18 <Zekka> it's possible, even likely that there are parts he didn't work on that are evil
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21:57:46 <int-e> (and this whole way we're doing software... as indicated above this is not limited to MS or even the commerical world... has ramification that I really don't want to think about. For example, for cryptography. Your crypto software may be secure now, but it can be backdoored without notice.)
21:58:07 <wob_jonas> Oh man. I'll indeed so have to buy a new computer in autumn. I love this one and it's served it well, it will probably retire with full honors, but it's just SLOW.
21:58:20 <Zekka> FWIW I think you should never assume your data is safe because of crypto
21:58:34 <int-e> Will MS still allow me to install my Win 7 copy on another machine?
21:58:40 <Zekka> you can shake your fist at companies like microsoft because we've probably backdoored our crypto implementations in one place or another
21:59:06 <Zekka> But afaik usually it's humans following bad security precautions that compromise security situations
21:59:06 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Install Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS 6.22
21:59:16 <int-e> Or will that be the point where I give up on Windows altogether and suffer through the lmited supply of games that work on Linux?
21:59:24 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I have them in an emulator
21:59:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: have you seen termbot? that runs ms-dos 6.22
21:59:34 <Zekka> your crypto is not particularly important if your super anonymous messages to known targets are sent from the same computer at the same times as your normal tweets
22:00:07 <Zekka> if I started sending tons of messages to ISIS from my personal machine, even if I used magic to guarantee my channel was cryptographically safe, it would probably be evident I was talking to ISIS
22:00:10 <int-e> Oh I know... https://xkcd.com/538/
22:00:18 <wob_jonas> it could also run windows 3.11, but it would be a bit hard to use unless you did some serious preparation, because normally you control windows through the monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and termbot doesn't give you access to those
22:00:28 <int-e> Zekka: that's what Tor is for.
22:00:30 <Zekka> probably the best strategy you can do is not communicate things you don't want found
22:00:35 <Zekka> int-e: Oh yeah, bring in anonymous third-parties
22:00:52 <Zekka> Obviously a hostile government could never run its own tor nodes and have them collude
22:00:57 <Zekka> and obviously this hasn't already happened
22:01:14 <int-e> (Tor, obviously, isn't perfect either, and a very lucrative target for secret services)
22:01:19 <wob_jonas> Zekka: why'd they pay for their own nodes? they just put malware on existing nodes.
22:01:51 <int-e> (But we know from the Snowden files that it must, actually, be quite good and be causing the NSA a lot of headaches.)
22:02:06 <Zekka> Didn't the guy who made bomb threats to get out of tests at Stanford or something get found out because he was the only dude on campus using Tor?
22:02:20 <Zekka> It probably wasn't Stanford, but it was some major school for smart people
22:02:53 <Zekka> I would be wary of crypto that makes it obvious I'm using crypto, because it means more people would want to snoop on me
22:04:09 <Zekka> If I had secret terrorist plans I would probably meet my secret terrorist buddies in person somewhere in the wilderness
22:04:52 <wob_jonas> Zekka: crypto that makes it obvious that you're using crypto? like connecting to freenode through ssl?
22:04:55 <int-e> . o O ( because that worked so well in 1984 )
22:04:55 <Zekka> maybe I'd develop secret terrorist plans I could carry out alone
22:05:09 <shachaf> Microsoft has secret terrorist plans?
22:05:18 <Zekka> shachaf: Don't tell the press!
22:05:18 <wob_jonas> Zekka: tell the logs all about them
22:05:25 <shachaf> I always thought Microsoft had secret communist plans.
22:05:32 <shachaf> They don't call it "Redmond" for nothing.
22:05:48 <Zekka> wob_jonas: I dunno, SSL's so commonplace that it's probably not seen as a red flag any more
22:06:05 <shachaf> And you would know all about red flags.
22:06:25 <wob_jonas> Zekka: so just use SSL for everything you want to encrypt?
22:06:51 <Zekka> I would not make the assumption that SSL is safe
22:07:02 <moon_> could you try connecting to 76.1.72.128 port 5138? (telnet). im making sure a port works before i do something
22:07:24 <wob_jonas> Zekka: of course not. it's just a tool. you have to use it correctly.
22:07:46 <Zekka> That'sk inda what I'm getting at -- you can't blame a single party for "I used crypto and my secrets aren't safe"
22:07:59 <Zekka> if you actually want to be safe you shouldn't communicate your secrets
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22:19:25 <int-e> @tell oerjan GG: ... LOOK! a three-headed monkey!
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22:23:44 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
22:23:54 <HackEgo> Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
22:24:02 <shachaf> Taneb: Vaughan Pratt says "the ability to prove Lambek's lemma is a litmus test of whether you can think categorically"
22:24:12 <shachaf> Did you prove it or just invent it?
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22:31:43 <alercah> what use is pointless topology?
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22:33:19 <int-e> alercah: from what I just read, the fact that an initial algebra is an isomorphism
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22:34:59 <alercah> what is an initial algebra?
22:35:27 <int-e> something categorical.
22:35:41 <alercah> presumably an initial object in some category?
22:36:06 <shachaf> the category of algebras hth
22:36:15 <int-e> the category of F-algebras for a functor F, which are maps F(A) -> A.
22:36:15 <alercah> how is it a morphism then?
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22:37:18 <int-e> So I can still prove Lambek's lemma. But I've seen it before and I don't like category theory.
22:38:28 <int-e> logic, algebra, combinatorics
22:41:50 <shachaf> Well, category theory is just algebra.
22:42:53 <alercah> int-e: what is A in the above?
22:43:56 <int-e> alercah: in some underlying category, yes. I mean it's an argument to F which is a functor, so there's little choice in the matter.
22:44:12 <alercah> int-e: a functor maps morphisms too though
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22:45:59 <int-e> shachaf: I get basic category theory; it's even useful to some extent. But it's a very hard way of thinking for me, and I tend to interpret everything in Set to make sense out of it.
22:48:11 <wob_jonas> Categories in the sense of thinking of some of maths as talking about morphisms between objects is useful, but it doesn't require too much theory of course.
22:48:33 <wob_jonas> It does give some useful naming conventions that helps communicate with other mathematicians.
22:48:39 * gamemanj looks at the backlog. gamemanj scrolls up. gamemanj scrolls up further. gamemanj is an idiot. YGMP+SLP==???
22:49:13 <int-e> lambdabot: I most certainly did not.
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23:06:18 <wob_jonas> This happens a lot with algebra, not only category theory. There's also a negative effect though, in that when mathematicians explain something with algebraic language, and young mathematicianlings are listening, it can seem quite alien and hard to understand, even if the underlying thought is pretty simple and they could understand it.
23:06:23 <wob_jonas> But that's just a temporary effect.
23:06:51 <shachaf> Soon, the young mathematicianlings will turn into aliens.
23:07:16 <alercah> mathematicianling is an overly complicated word
23:07:37 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you a mathematicianling?
23:08:44 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:09:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah. eventually they grow and they themselves will talk nonsense like "Wait, that's too abstract. Let's take a specific example. Say, let A be a self-adjoint operator over a complex space."
23:09:54 <shachaf> roll your self-adjoint and join the fun
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23:15:36 <shachaf> i,i "Take a positive integer N. No wait, N is too big; take a positive integer k."
23:15:51 <shachaf> I was looking for a different joke but I've forgotten it now.
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23:24:47 <moon_> I managed to make a watchable game of Dwarf Fortress, but, it doesnt like the arrow keys and the escape key etc etc. any help?
23:25:16 <moon_> cmd: ncat -l --keep-open --sh-exec "./df" 5318
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23:26:08 <moon_> I managed to make a watchable game of Dwarf Fortress, but, it doesnt like the arrow keys and the escape key etc etc. any help?
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23:36:14 <shachaf> this joke from mathoverflow is so good
23:36:17 <shachaf> I went to visit him while he was lying ill at the hospital. I had come in taxi cab number 14 and remarked that it was a rather dull number. "No" he replied, "it is a very interesting number. It's the smallest number expressible as the product of 7 and 2 in two different ways."
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23:45:01 * boily mathwackematics shachaf
23:45:11 <boily> `relcome byteflame
23:45:18 <HackEgo> byteflame: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:50:08 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 30m 43s ago: GG: ... LOOK! a three-headed monkey!
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23:50:50 <oerjan> hey, he left, i was going to make an awful pun :(
23:54:41 <oerjan> @tell int-e sadly, i've played very few computer games hth
23:55:08 <oerjan> well, there's tetris...
23:56:46 <oerjan> civilization, although i usually chickened out soon after the enemies started appearing.
23:57:52 <oerjan> a number of small mindless games and abstract puzzle games.
23:58:48 <oerjan> many of which i've forgot.
00:00:25 <oerjan> i guess i played a couple MUDs, and that's about all of rpg-like things. (excluding a game for Oric-1 called Zodiac, which i never got very far in.)
00:00:46 <oerjan> no first person shooters, ever, afair.
00:01:33 <oerjan> i thnk that counts as "abstract puzzle" hth
00:01:51 <oerjan> i wasn't going to list those individually.
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00:02:41 <oerjan> i didn't count that as a computer game.
00:03:09 <oerjan> unless you want to argue semantics tdnh
00:03:25 <oerjan> except for that schemenomic thing, once.
00:03:33 <shachaf> isn't that what nomic is about
00:05:57 <oerjan> the chances of getting deeper into gaming diminished sharply after my hands started aching back in 2003 or thereabouts.
00:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i feel like there are genres of game that you can play fine even with that
00:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> like there are strategy games which require about the same level of mouse use as just web browsing
00:08:14 <oerjan> i don't use a mouse these days, but a trackpad. also, i can ache simply from typing if i do it long enough.
00:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> trackpad, mouse, if you can click buttons on a screen it works out the same
00:09:15 <oerjan> well i'm just not sure how different they are for the hands.
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00:13:48 <fizzie> You can play text adventures with voice control hth
00:14:28 <HackEgo> fizzie: Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavan #esoteric päälle EFnet tai Dalnet.)
00:15:39 <oerjan> grammar corrections are also `welcome hth
00:15:53 <shachaf> Telling people to go to Dalnet #esoteric, when it doesn't even exist?
00:16:25 <oerjan> it was the first we found afair.
00:16:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Everything except the parenthetical remark seems fine.
00:16:57 <oerjan> fizzie: and the grammar of that is atrocious?
00:16:57 <shachaf> HackEgo: what are you Muumin' for
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00:17:01 <shachaf> wait, that doesn't make sense
00:17:10 <oerjan> we _do_ get the other kind occasionally.
00:17:32 <oerjan> in fact we have one here right now, who somehow doesn't leave.
00:18:03 <oerjan> although there might be others.
00:18:08 <fizzie> The latter could be something like: "kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa."
00:19:09 <oerjan> `slwd welcome.fi//s/kokeile.*/kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)/
00:19:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome.fi//Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)
00:19:35 <fizzie> It's hard because you really would need to inflect the names EFnet and Dalnet, and they're not really very Finnish. So I cheated by making it "in the EFnet or Dalnet network" instead.
00:20:17 <shachaf> oerjan: are you making fun of finland
00:20:26 <fizzie> Well. EFnetissä. Maybe.
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00:21:19 <fizzie> (For some reason, in Finnish, the channels are definitely "in", not "on".)
00:21:31 <shachaf> oerjan: that doesn't make a tonh of sense hth
00:21:55 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you recommend learning Finnish?
00:22:15 <fizzie> Or no, that'd be dogh.
00:23:01 <shachaf> my arcdog has an arctic problem
00:23:40 * oerjan arcs his swatter onto shachaf -----###
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00:27:44 <oerjan> is shacaf a decaf brand
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00:29:35 <oerjan> for ryming purposes hth
00:31:07 <shachaf> oerjan: You have permission to mispronounce my name, because I always mispronounce yours.
00:31:18 <quintopia> altoug, i tink you meant "for ryming purposes t" t
00:31:26 <moon_> how would i randomly run one of 5 diffrent commands? (bash)
00:31:38 <oerjan> shachaf: but, but, i've been training on uvular fricatives
00:31:41 <lynn> How does Finnish generally handle the inflection of foreign names, fizzie?
00:32:21 <shachaf> did you hear about how unary nfa universality is conp-complete (scow)
00:32:24 <quintopia> ...i would never have thought to pronounce shachaf with a uvular fricative
00:32:26 <oerjan> (that's the inflection, not the fricatives)
00:32:37 <shachaf> That's the official pronunciation.
00:33:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i saw int-e point out that's an equivalent formulation
00:33:28 <oerjan> quintopia: you could sabotage it by pronouncing the "sh" as one instead
00:34:12 <oerjan> oh, and btw, the stress is apparently on the first syllable, which was opposite of my initial assumption.
00:34:32 <shachaf> Your initial assumption was that it's on the other two?
00:34:44 <quintopia> i've never thought of emphasizing the second syllable--now i'm going to
00:35:33 <quintopia> new unofficial quintopia pronunciation: "zhach AS fuck"
00:35:59 <oerjan> quintopia: that would be "for ryming purposes t t", i think, since it would break my script.
00:36:05 <int-e> that makes me feel better about "schaf" ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schafe )
00:36:14 <int-e> oerjan: what awful pun didn't you make
00:36:34 <int-e> oerjan: I mean there was a bunch of bad puns anyway
00:36:38 <lynn> My pronunciation advice: say "shachaf-chan" but pronounce "shachaf" all wrong but make the ch in "chan" is a uvular fricative
00:37:02 <fizzie> lynn: We just mangle them in the way that sounds least bad.
00:37:42 <oerjan> moon_: using shuf -n 1 maybe?
00:38:09 <fizzie> So it would likely be "EFnetissä", "Dalnetissa".
00:38:13 <quintopia> oerjan: i think maybe they were asking about the giant nested if statement, and possible replacements for it?
00:38:29 <int-e> mantissa, exponent
00:38:38 <oerjan> moon_: oh and -e looks useful too
00:38:51 <fizzie> And if someone is impolite enough to put vowel harmony mismatch already in the original word, we'd probably just get all confused.
00:39:06 <fizzie> (Mostly an issue with y.)
00:39:06 <oerjan> `` shuf -e -n 1 t e s t i n g
00:39:26 <int-e> that was the most likely outcome!
00:39:36 <oerjan> `` `shuf -e -n 1 'echo hi' 'echo ho'`
00:39:36 <moon_> `` shuf -e -n 1 t e s t i n g
00:40:18 <int-e> `` for i in $(seq 1000); do shuf -e -n 1 t e s t i n g; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
00:40:31 <oerjan> int-e: a pun with "pouting" hth
00:40:41 <HackEgo> 272 t \ 169 i \ 153 s \ 146 g \ 139 n \ 121 e
00:41:26 <oerjan> <quintopia> CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!!~~~~~ <-- with that, it feels hard not to make the CH a full trill hth
00:43:08 <int-e> oerjan: would you be pouting nonsense?
00:43:16 <oerjan> <shachaf> Your initial assumption was that it's on the other two? <-- i'd read somewhere that hebrew stress is usually on the last syllable, or something else i garbled into that.
00:43:19 * int-e is too tired to think of anything better than that.
00:43:51 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Hebrew_phonology#Stress hth
00:44:02 <quintopia> shachaf: whence did derogatory adjective "scow" originate? twh
00:44:15 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
00:44:16 <int-e> quintopia: scowling, I though
00:44:22 <shachaf> quintopia: It originated on a scow.
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00:44:54 <HackEgo> Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
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00:45:32 <int-e> hmm, that entry fails to mention the propensity to lie about etymology
00:45:43 <oerjan> <fizzie> And if someone is impolite enough to put vowel harmony mismatch already in the original word [...] <-- Ørjan feels targeted
00:45:55 <quintopia> shachaf: and how did you come to be the only other person in the universe to use it?
00:46:00 <shachaf> int-e: When have I lied about etymology?
00:46:09 <shachaf> quintopia: I'm not the only person in the universe to use it!
00:46:14 <shachaf> For example, oerjan uses it.
00:46:19 <shachaf> Being young and impressionable.
00:46:49 <quintopia> yes but i doubt he uses it anywhere but here, thereby not perpetrating it to the wider population
00:46:59 <oerjan> quintopia: i didn't see the if statement, but he did say "random".
00:47:11 <int-e> I can believe the lispy cow.
00:47:11 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, the ø alone is pretty weird, so.
00:47:15 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you speak English anywhere but here?
00:47:25 <quintopia> oerjan: oh i didn't see random. also you are far behind the present moment?
00:47:50 <shachaf> I don't think "scow" has a direct translation to Norwegian or German or any of oerjan's other languages.
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00:49:43 <int-e> oh when did dictionary.com add maps?
00:50:05 <int-e> e.g. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/scowl
00:50:08 <shachaf> I thought "dictionary" and "map" meant the same thing.
00:50:22 <quintopia> shachaf: map is something you do with dictionaries hth
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01:03:24 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Do you speak English anywhere but here? <-- i'm only on two chat channels, really, and the other doesn't have much talk.
01:03:41 * oerjan waves to quintopia from the past
01:05:36 * oerjan returns briefly to the present, before running
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01:15:26 * oerjan notes that the section on /r/ in the article shachaf linked is inconsistent on whether israelis prefer velar or uvular.
01:16:00 <shachaf> oerjan: hey, i linked to the stress section hth
01:16:11 <shachaf> oerjan: Last I tried I can't distinguish velar and uvular fricatives.
01:16:59 <oerjan> i suppose you need an oscilloscope :P
01:17:30 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but i was thinking of something i wanted to check
01:19:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway those are voiced fricatives.
01:19:28 <shachaf> Of course the one in my name is unvoiced.
01:22:00 <oerjan> apparently it's been discussed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Modern_Hebrew_phonology#Uvular_Fricative
01:22:55 <oerjan> "Perhaps they are supposed to be uvular, but this article is about what they actually are, which is velar in 80% of speakers according to Dekel (2014), who performed a statistical study to answer exactly this question."
01:23:14 <shachaf> I'm not actually sure what a velar fricative is.
01:23:39 <oerjan> shachaf: well it depends on where in your mouth your tongue is blocking...
01:23:49 <shachaf> But do I even have a vela?
01:24:16 <oerjan> well g and k are velar stops afaik
01:25:58 <oerjan> velum=soft palate, supposedly
01:26:26 <oerjan> although that's a pretty big region, isn't it.
01:28:41 <oerjan> and afaiu the discussion, "back velar" is hard to distinguish from uvular.
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01:34:06 * oerjan posts on the talk page
01:35:02 * shachaf wonders whether to bring up fixing the error in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_language#Decidability_properties
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01:35:23 <shachaf> It's a serious error, claiming that it's NP-complete when it's really coNP-complete.
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01:37:31 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might have found a solution to the paradox of the stone, but it's pretty fucking stupid (and still can be broken)
01:37:33 <moon_> now im running something silly
01:38:18 <hppavilion[1]> So he creates a really heavy stone that he can't currently lift
01:38:27 <hppavilion[1]> But then when he needs to, he becomes stronger so he can lift it
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01:39:10 <moon_> Certainly, just make it a unmoving object
01:39:22 <moon_> maybe not actually, depends on view point
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01:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> Could God make an argument so circular that even He couldn't believe it?
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01:40:41 <moon_> someone try telnetting to this silly server a few times: 76.1.72.128 5318
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01:44:30 <oerjan> shachaf: ok i didn't find the answer to what i was actually looking for, so i have to ask you: are hebrew t, p, k aspirated or not?
01:45:20 <oerjan> a small h sound at the end, essentially. english has it, except after s.
01:46:31 <oerjan> germanic languages tend to have aspirated unvoiced plosives, romance languages tend not to afaik.
01:46:48 <oerjan> and i've read somewhere that semitic languages can have aspiration...
01:47:34 <oerjan> (some languages, like ancient greek and standard chinese, distinguish stops _only_ with aspiration, not voicing.)
01:48:05 <oerjan> greek also has voicing - three way distinction.
01:51:41 <shachaf> Is it only at the end of a word or something?
01:52:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
01:52:21 <oerjan> it's mostly before a vowel.
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01:53:50 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant suggest testing it by holding your palm in front of your mouth to feel how much air there is.
01:54:30 <oerjan> (in english, there should be more with "pin" than with "bin".)
01:55:11 <shachaf> Wait, how do you pronounce "p" unaspirated?
01:55:41 <oerjan> take a "b" and just don't voice it, i think...
01:56:24 <oerjan> oh, also contrast "pin" vs. "spin", the latter should be unaspirated.
01:57:51 <oerjan> "Aspiration varies with place of articulation. The Spanish voiceless stops /p t k/ have voice-onset times (VOTs) of about 5, 10, and 30 milliseconds, whereas English aspirated /p t k/ have VOTs of about 60, 70, and 80 ms."
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02:03:38 <oerjan> "French,[5] Standard Dutch,[6] Tamil, Italian, Russian, Spanish, Modern Greek, and Latvian are languages that do not have aspirated consonants."
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02:14:42 <oerjan> huh the article used to use "spin" as the example, but someone changed it to "bin".
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02:24:04 <oerjan> huh the article used to use "spin" as the example, but someone changed it to "bin".
02:25:28 <oerjan> turns out, shift-* on my keyboard is just next to up-return
02:25:32 <Cale> Was just sorting out something with my IRC client
02:25:50 <oerjan> ah. i was thinking you'd got into a bad cycle.
02:27:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
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02:31:52 * oerjan wishes freenode didn't keep resetting the times on bans
02:32:09 <oerjan> we need elliott here to do a proper cleanup of the list :(
02:34:04 <alercah> ... apparently it's freenode-staff?!?
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02:37:00 <oerjan> alercah: elliott isn't an op, as he left and got deregistered. however, he was very good with cleaning up the ban list :P
02:37:27 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i have all the authority, i just don't have the skill.
02:38:03 <oerjan> i think fizzie should be the founder but apparently freenode has a different policy :(
02:38:22 <oerjan> (he's the oldest op nick afaik)
02:38:24 <zzo38> Wikipedia is calling transitions of NFA that match an empty string as epsilon transitions, but a book I have is calling them as lambda transitions instead. Do you know why?
02:39:17 <alercah> but for what it's worth, I learned them as epsilon
02:39:28 <shachaf> zzo38: I never heard "lambda".
02:40:40 <zzo38> The book that is calling them lambda transitions is from 1988
02:41:02 <shachaf> Oh, I don't believe in books that were written before I was born.
02:41:19 <oerjan> anyway, because freenode resets the times on the ban list, and also adds new ones at either end, i'm pretty confused about which bans are old enough that they're safe to remove.
02:41:30 <shachaf> Why not generalize NFAs further?
02:41:42 <shachaf> If you allow epsilon transitions, why not allow transitions to be labeled with arbitrary strings?
02:43:09 <zzo38> That would be possible to do too yes, and then you can easily convert into the one that only allows up to one symbol.
02:43:38 <oerjan> you can label them with arbitrary regexes hth
02:44:06 <zzo38> Yes you can do that too and then convert them.
02:44:09 <oerjan> also, the atoms of the regexes can be NFAs
02:44:23 <oerjan> and then you can add some turtles to taste
02:49:57 <zzo38> DFA can sometimes have many more states than the corresponding NFA. However DFA can also be made minimized. What will it be if a NFA has these restrictions: [1] A state can have no more than one epsilon transition leading out. [2] A state can have no more than one epsilon transition leading in. [3] It is not allowed to form a loop entirely of epsilon transitions.
02:51:00 <shachaf> What do you mean, what will it be?
02:54:16 <alercah> you can eliminate epsilon-transitions though
02:54:49 <shachaf> You can eliminate arbitrary string transitions, too.
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02:55:22 <moon_> 76.1.72.128, port 5318. i got bored and made this :P might keep it up just for the fun of it
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03:01:06 <zzo38> I don't know what it is, and I cannot seem to connect either
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03:04:07 <zzo38> How can you convert into a minimum NFA that has the three restrictions I mentioned?
03:05:11 <shachaf> Why do you like those restrictions?
03:06:07 <zzo38> A parser I have designed has these restrictions.
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04:16:48 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is Strindberg
04:17:06 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Strindberg
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07:01:39 <zzo38> Can any computer printer support printing in invisible ink as well as black?
07:02:56 <zzo38> I intend to make the FreeUHS "print" program to support an option to tell it what specials (if any) to use to tell it to select or deselect invisible ink, so that if this option is used, then you can print the contents of the hints in invisible ink.
07:04:01 <zzo38> (Such a program can be implemented even if no such thing currently exists, because when it does exist, then that option can be used.)
07:05:32 <zzo38> Another thing that can be put is to cover up the text and then you can scratch it off in order to read it (like some lottery cards).
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07:13:50 <[ctcp-for-yell]> i wonder what would happen if i fed a ethernet switch 2.5v through the data lines, no ossilation or changes
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07:19:59 <pikhq> [ctcp-for-yell]: If you're applying 2.5v on a *pair*, rather than individual parts of the pair? Not much.
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07:21:11 <pikhq> A similar (but fairly carefully specified) scheme is used in Power over Ethernet.
07:21:55 <pikhq> 2.5V AC would probably ruin the signal.
07:24:11 <pikhq> 120V AC would likely ruin the signal, possibly the cable as well, and might ruin the opto-isolator in the Ethernet switch.
07:25:04 <pikhq> (though I *think* the opto-isolator is actually rated for a couple kV?)
07:25:15 <pikhq> Arc through the insulation on the cable.
07:25:51 <pikhq> Wouldn't even reach the switch, it'd be arcing pretty close to where you hook the cable up.
07:26:52 <pikhq> If you want to have a good guarantee of destroying a switch you'd need to basically connect all of its contacts up to a Tesla coil or a beefy capacitor bank or something.
07:28:42 <pikhq> One of the nice things about Ethernet is it's designed to be pretty robust to people screwing it up, from a physical or electrical point-of-view...
07:29:04 <pikhq> Your most likely failure cases are just gonna make the network stop working, not cause lasting damage to equipment on the network.
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07:37:21 <orin> [ctcp-for-yell]: if you really want to screw up a network switch, try to make a virus
07:37:47 <orin> there are probably already viruses that pread over ethernet
07:38:02 <[ctcp-for-yell]> on outdated switches a socket into socket cable works sometimes
07:38:46 <pikhq> That'll screw up the network it's attached to, not the switch itself (permanently). :)
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07:46:39 <Jafet> it's somewhat unlikely that a mains AC waveform will be decoded as a valid ethernet frame
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07:50:25 <pikhq> Jafet: Yes, but it will likely corrupt any Ethernet frames going over the cable.
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07:55:45 <Jafet> even at 60 Hz? an ethernet frame is much smaller than 1/60s.
07:56:03 <izabera> https://devnull-as-a-service.com/
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07:58:24 <farrioth> Jafet: Whatever you're doing, it sounds like a bad idea...
07:58:43 <pikhq> Jafet: I dunno, I'd be worried about it considering it's adding a 50/60 Hz 120V waveform to a 2.5V AC signal.
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07:59:17 <pikhq> ... That said it probably shouldn't do much more than be noise.
08:01:05 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, this is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Bush is _not_ a redirect
08:01:32 <izabera> where did you expect it to redirect?
08:13:52 <lifthrasiir> ...somehow sounds like ambush, so I've immediately discarded the idea
08:15:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: iirc wikipedia policy is to usually name articles what most people call the subject.
08:16:45 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump <- why is this not called big fat racist?
08:22:24 <Jafet> (is it worse to be a big fat racist, or to be a miserable failure?)
08:28:30 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: Trump isn't yet qualified as a miserable failure, because he is yet to be president
08:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure whether Trump's wikipedia article (see: http://loser.com/) is biased
08:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> "Trump is a strong proponent of law and order. He has suggested a temporary suspension of immigration to the United States from nations having a "proven history" of terrorism against the U.S. until more precise vetting techniques can be put in place to screen out potential terrorists; he also believes that the quick defeat of ISIS is mandatory."
08:31:32 <hppavilion[1]> It's a little incorrect, because it's not so much nations with that history as it is muslims
09:07:09 <hppavilion[1]> When the ratio of illegitimate births in comparison to the number of total births is high, the number of mustaches within the population drops
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09:13:09 <myname> maybe they get killed by husbands
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09:24:25 <b_jonas> This one is mostly for the logs: my vacation to Sweden and Norway starts on 2016-08-05 and ends on 2016-08-17, I'll be barely available during that time. I probably won't be on the internet, or only a little. I might not even be reading email much. For urgent problems, try phone call and SMS, or call my family.
09:25:09 <izabera> i'll just send you an owl like every normal person
09:26:07 <shachaf> b_jonas: How can I reach your family?
09:27:05 -!- Zekka has joined.
09:31:02 <shachaf> Do you think that's justified?
09:34:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: if you're a co-worker or family or other person who should know, ask me privately and I can give email and phone number of them
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09:35:26 <shachaf> Ah, I didn't realize those folks were in here.
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09:36:44 <b_jonas> so if you're here, then you probably won't want to reach me for anything urgent
09:37:01 <b_jonas> but it's hard to tell anything for sure, especially about people reading a public log
09:37:31 <b_jonas> and besides, if you want to meet me, and ask nicely in private, I can probably give my phone number (even if not my family's)
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09:40:25 <b_jonas> (mind you, it's probably not that hard to find a contact for my family on the internet, since some of them has the same last name as me)
09:40:38 <shachaf> But I've forgotten your last name.
09:40:42 <shachaf> Though it's somewhere in the logs.
09:41:09 <shachaf> Ah, and also on the Internet.
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10:46:08 <fizzie> I should probably set up a pager for urgent esolangs.org matters.
10:58:46 <fizzie> Inspired by b_jonas' announcement above.
10:59:50 <FireFly> b_jonas: enjoy your vacation
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11:07:32 <shachaf> you should HireFly to handle the pages
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11:23:37 <int-e> oh Faraday cage news... fun.
11:24:08 <int-e> `` (cd wisdom; grep -ri faraday .)
11:26:17 <ybden> `grep -ri cage wisdom
11:27:03 <HackEgo> grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information.
11:27:18 <ybden> ``grep -ri cage wisdom
11:27:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `grep: not found
11:27:27 <ybden> HackEgo: you are being very slow
11:27:41 <ybden> `` grep -ri cage wisdom
11:28:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/boxmodel:boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be.
11:29:27 <gamemanj> I'm not sure people like cages. IDK. Is Taneb a cage collector?
11:29:39 <int-e> is to to protect Taneb or to protect the other people?
11:30:47 <gamemanj> It's obviously to protect Taneb. If we had to protect the other people, well,
11:30:51 <gamemanj> that would be impossible anyway.
11:31:03 <FireFly> Obviously Taneb's cage is a tanebvention
11:31:17 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
11:31:36 <gamemanj> You'd have to somehow protect people from the BBC.
11:31:37 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
11:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn tanebventions: linguistics//Linguistic tanebventions include [...]
11:32:15 <HackEgo> Learned «tanebventions: linguistics»
11:33:21 <int-e> `? tanebventions: linguistics
11:33:25 <HackEgo> /Linguistic tanebventions include [...]
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11:35:18 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
11:35:32 <ybden> how does learn/le\rn work?
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11:36:07 <int-e> there's le//rn as well
11:36:23 <ybden> was le//rn meant to be used instead?
11:37:19 <int-e> `cat bin/slashlearn
11:37:33 <HackEgo> sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "$verb «$key»"
11:38:33 <FireFly> Pretty sure you mean strength
11:41:37 <b_jonas> The old musing at https://cr.yp.to/djbdns/ipv6mess.html from 2002 is still fucking completely true.
11:44:26 <int-e> boily: have you seen http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2900/fv02843.htm?
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11:45:51 <boily> int-ello. I'm not a chicken and I don't look like a chicken >_>'... <_<;...
11:46:25 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
11:48:06 <boily> int-e: the old version is still there in the PDF hth
11:48:07 <int-e> I wonder how many other people out there prefer the canine version of FreeFall to the colorized one.
11:48:48 <gamemanj> "canine version of FreeFall"???
11:49:10 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
11:49:11 <int-e> gamemanj: alluding to lack of color vision.
11:50:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
11:50:49 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
11:51:25 <ybden> I misread the pipe as a \
11:57:51 <HackEgo> Nooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
12:03:09 <int-e> . o O ( s/ancestor/creator/ )
12:04:00 * ybden . o O ( Taneb created Taneb )
12:04:32 <int-e> among other people
12:06:48 -!- int-e has set topic: Refrigerator | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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12:32:54 <HackEgo> A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket.
12:50:56 <HackEgo> Mario is a classic PSPACE-complete problem invented by Nintendo.
12:51:10 <ybden> `? pspace-complete
12:51:14 <HackEgo> pspace-complete? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:56:34 <ybden> `? do not put the baby
12:56:35 <HackEgo> do not put the baby? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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13:34:23 <int-e> wee I have an OEIS wiki account...
13:34:31 <int-e> ...now what shall I do with it
13:43:36 <HackEgo> The wiki is at http://esolangs.org/wiki
13:45:59 <alercah> I think I want a new terminal emulator
13:46:15 <alercah> urxvt is okay but configuring it is literally the worst
13:46:51 <b_jonas> alercah: what? what's so hard in configuring it? I just have a script that starts it with the right command-line arguments and it works that way
13:47:09 <b_jonas> (except for that one mysterious bug that took days to debug, but that was ages ago)
13:51:48 <alercah> b_jonas: setting e.g. the font requires arcane invocations in .Xresources
13:52:19 <alercah> it can't render the font I like correctly at the size I like
13:52:31 <alercah> and in general it sucks at picking font sizes
13:55:30 <b_jonas> alercah: no, I don't need to put anything in X resources
13:55:43 <b_jonas> unlike with xterm, I can give ANY setting in the command line for urxvt
13:55:50 <b_jonas> (or any setting in xresources if you prefer that)
13:56:32 <b_jonas> I put everything in the command line, but putting everything in xresources and perhaps just putting a -name in the command line to choose from multiple configs could work just as well
13:57:46 <alercah> fair enough, still doesn't solve the problem that a) the configs are arcane b) font config just doesn't work period
13:58:10 <feliks> alercah: how does it 'not work'?
13:58:46 <alercah> feliks: with the font I'm using for instance
13:58:57 <alercah> height 12 pixels is the same as height 13 pixels, which is too small
13:59:07 <alercah> height 14 pixels is good, but underscores don't render
13:59:13 <alercah> height 15 pixels is too big
13:59:40 <feliks> what do you use for font rendering?
14:00:12 <feliks> no i mean systems wide. you're not into infinality are you?
14:00:56 <feliks> what font are you using then?
14:01:51 <feliks> how does your .Xresources/.Xdefaults line look like?
14:03:05 <feliks> URxvt.font: xft:Droid Sans Mono:pixelsize=13:antialias=true:hinting=true
14:04:06 <alercah> also dynamic reconfiguration of settings is the *worst*
14:05:09 <alercah> if I set it to 14, it's back to the correct size but underscores are still invisible
14:05:36 <feliks> so is that what you wanted?
14:05:49 <alercah> I want the size it's currently at with underscores actually rendering
14:05:55 <alercah> which appears to be too much to ask
14:06:48 <alercah> I also consider the fact that the only way to dynamically change a setting, near as I can tell, is to bind a keyboard shortcut to a command to do so to be a major anti-feature
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14:07:57 <feliks> you could have a look at your freetype config
14:08:50 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
14:08:55 <alercah> or I could switch to a better terminal emulator?
14:09:56 <feliks> whatever floats your boat
14:11:00 <alercah> I don't want to mess around with ridiculous arcane configs for hours trying to solve what is a super easy problem in other terminal emulators
14:17:19 <izabera> if (flags == O_TMPFILE) write(1, "TEMP!!!", 7);
14:17:21 <izabera> if ((fd = open(template, flags | O_RDWR | O_CREAT | O_EXCL, 0600)) != -1) return fd;
14:17:32 <izabera> these two lines produce this in strace
14:17:35 <izabera> write(1, "TEMP!!!", 7TEMP!!!) = 7
14:17:36 <izabera> open("/tmp/hYnyMH", O_RDWR|O_CREAT|O_EXCL|O_DIRECTORY|O_TMPFILE, 0600) = -1 EINVAL (Invalid argument)
14:27:14 <izabera> i see, the pathname must specify a directory
14:27:20 <izabera> so i guess glibc is adding that
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14:38:25 <myname> what was the closed fibonacci in haskell?
14:38:53 <Taneb> > scanl1 (+) [1..] -- ??
14:38:55 <lambdabot> [1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,276...
14:39:50 <Taneb> What do you mean by closed?
14:40:15 <myname> as in: working as anonymous function
14:41:59 <Taneb> Yeah, I think I know the one...
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14:43:31 <Taneb> Aaargh, this is annoying me
14:44:58 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
14:44:59 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
14:45:09 <Jafet> > iterate (\(a, b) -> (b, a+b)) (0, 1)
14:45:11 <lambdabot> [(0,1),(1,1),(1,2),(2,3),(3,5),(5,8),(8,13),(13,21),(21,34),(34,55),(55,89),...
14:45:39 <int-e> (I think I invented that one, but at the very least I discovered it independently :P)
14:47:47 <myname> does it work without fix?
14:48:35 <b_jonas> hmm, I wonder if I should put the entry to potato or to potatoes
14:49:13 <Taneb> b_jonas, follow your heart
14:50:10 <b_jonas> `slashlearn potatoes/You are not allowed to take potatoes to Norway without a special permit.
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14:55:54 <Jafet> > map (\n -> read . take n . drop (n*(n-1)+1) . show $ 1000^n^2 `div` (100^n - 10^n - 1) :: Int) [1..]
14:55:56 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1771...
14:59:26 <Jafet> but take and drop are typically defined using fix...
14:59:32 <Jafet> > map (\n -> 1000^n^2 `div` (100^n - 10^n - 1) `div` 100^n^2 `mod` 10^n) [1..]
14:59:33 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
15:02:14 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/tan*:*
15:02:19 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: linguistics wisdom/tanebventions: math
15:02:47 <int-e> `` rm wisdom/tan*:*s
15:04:12 <int-e> (my revert earlier failed)
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15:18:35 <gamemanj> I'd write "`learn RAR is a legal headache waiting to happen for whoever has to embed support for it into their application due to an obscure 'tradition' of MMD model makers" but that wouldn't really be in the spirit of wisdom.
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15:19:16 <Jafet> ` cat canary # eep, a puddytat
15:19:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
15:19:54 <int-e> hmm, I don't know why it's empty.
15:20:45 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Aug 2 14:02 canary
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15:22:39 <int-e> `` echo -n ribbit > canary
15:25:50 <int-e> ah. http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/ae8c2e353600/canary may be the explanation
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16:07:07 <b_jonas> Ah! I got an answer to my question from more than a week ago
16:08:14 <b_jonas> almost a month ago, actually
16:08:37 <int-e> this sounds like a useful bit of information
16:08:54 <int-e> (Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot)
16:12:03 <b_jonas> int-e: I asked what drink Faye bought, because it's unclear from http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3257 and the previous few strips
16:13:06 <int-e> Oh. I think I would've known that.
16:13:30 <b_jonas> someone gave guesses I think
16:13:38 <b_jonas> let me check how accurate they were and who won
16:15:15 <b_jonas> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.07.05
16:17:07 <int-e> b_jonas: okay I didn't know... I just assumed by color.
16:17:53 <int-e> and from the context it had to be something strong
16:19:13 <int-e> so what's the regular pentagon doing?
16:19:30 <b_jonas> int-e: I didn't think much about it recently
16:19:40 <b_jonas> I have to prepare for the vacation, which takes most of my remaining time
16:19:49 <b_jonas> (together with work and other usual stuff)
16:20:01 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm just asking because I brought up that game the same say as you asked the question about QC
16:20:02 <b_jonas> that's why I found out that you can't take potatoes to Norway
16:20:27 <b_jonas> (and you're recommended to take a passport, which is less surprising)
16:22:19 <int-e> oh, today's 5th panel would be... "That didn't occur to me, please hold the fort while I take care of those bastards."
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17:47:21 <alercah> `le/rn nundrum/A nundrum is the categorical dual of a conundrum: a problem whose solution is useless.
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21:21:49 <wob_jonas> I brought up my huge bag from the basement so I can pack in it for travel
21:21:59 <wob_jonas> I thought it was just some dust or paint on it
21:22:09 <wob_jonas> but in the light it turns out there's actually MOLD GROWING ON IT
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21:38:35 <orin> wob_jonas: buy a new suitcase
21:38:52 <orin> and dispose of the old one by fire
21:41:13 <S1> Buy new mold. That one has a bag on it. Eww.
21:43:56 <wob_jonas> I think it could grow because the basement has barely any air circulation
21:47:11 <orin> how does traffic change orientation in the chunnel
21:47:29 <orin> is there a helix that switches the left and the right?
21:47:59 <shachaf> driving on the left side of the road makes no sense
21:48:08 <shachaf> neither does writing from the left side of the page
21:48:44 <orin> I prefer writing downward
21:49:05 <myname> are there pathfinder nerds in here?
21:49:17 <orin> the space probe?
21:49:19 <shachaf> In the other channel the other day I was talking about the old puzzle of why mirrors flip things left-to-right.
21:49:36 <myname> the role playing game system
21:49:51 <orin> shachaf: they flip things front to back, not left to right?
21:50:02 <shachaf> That answer is correct but incomplete.
21:50:46 <orin> and your mirror self writes with the opposite hand
21:51:13 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I dunno, but I also don't understand why some mirrors zoom and distract your face. people keep using those, but those are confusing and I hate them.
21:51:26 <wob_jonas> I use only non-zooming flat mirrors which don't distort
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21:52:17 <orin> wob_jonas: it's for magnifying the blemishes on your face and allowing you to obsess oover them
21:52:27 <shachaf> I don't mind distorting mirrors.
21:52:34 <shachaf> My face is already distorted in the opposite way.
21:52:35 <wob_jonas> and in the bathroom I have two cupboards with mirror on the door, so basically I have two movable mirrors that let me look at even the back of my face, even without flipping left and right,
21:52:43 <shachaf> So they're the only way to see myself as I truly am.
21:52:51 <wob_jonas> plus I have a handheld mirror for when it helps.
21:53:06 <shachaf> I also don't get photographed.
21:53:22 <wob_jonas> I don't look *at* the mirror (except when cleaning it). I look *through* it to my face or body or clothes.
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22:18:09 <moon___> wob_jonas: do you remember how you connected your bot to DOS 6.22?
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22:18:25 <moon___> im trying to write a experiement that connects to DOS 6.22 :P
22:18:33 <moon___> Using the virtualbox Serial
22:18:50 <wob_jonas> I won't start it up now, but I can answer questions
22:19:24 <moon___> how'd you connect it to the Bot, and what language (the language is just so i can judge how hard it would be in js, which im using)
22:20:33 <wob_jonas> moon__: I connect to the virtual machine's serial connection, which DOS lets you use as the terminal for all programs that access stdin and stdout.
22:21:21 <wob_jonas> The bochs emulator exposes this serial terminal by connecting it to... I don't quite remember, probably the master side of a pty terminal?
22:21:33 <moon___> and how did you set up the serial connection? i know that DOS can use ctty to connect to COM
22:22:31 <wob_jonas> Yes, I used the ctty command to redirect stdin and stdout and stderr there, and I used a command-line program from norton utilities to set the parameters of the serial connection from DOS, although I think you can also use DOS's MODE COM command for that
22:22:59 <wob_jonas> The mode matters only partly, because I think bochs actually lets data through it faster than a real serial terminal hardware would permit.
22:23:20 <wob_jonas> So the mode might actually be mostly ignored, except perhaps the number of bits per character.
22:23:58 <wob_jonas> let me see http://bochs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/topper.pl?name=New+Bochs+Documentation&url=http://bochs.sourceforge.net/doc/docbook
22:24:15 <moon___> Ill figure it out eventually
22:24:18 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure which mode I used, the socket or the pty
22:24:23 <wob_jonas> probably the socket, that's easier to set up
22:24:34 <wob_jonas> moon__: I think virtualbox can also expose the serial terminal to you somehow
22:27:56 <wob_jonas> no, checking the source code, it turns out I actually used the socket mode
22:28:56 <moon___> hmm, virtualbox doesnt like me with sockets
22:29:31 <wob_jonas> but don't take this as good practice
22:29:39 <wob_jonas> my script is old and half-broken anyway
22:29:52 <wob_jonas> if I were to want something like this seriously, then I'd have to rewrite the whole thing properly
22:29:59 <moon___> the port im using is closed, to prevent possible, well, unmonitered dos invasions :P
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23:17:03 <moon___> wob_jonas: a single DOS image would work on multiple platforms for bochs, right?
23:17:19 <moon___> if so, can i have a copy of your DOS image? im too lazy to make one on windows :P
23:20:35 <wob_jonas> moon__: what do you mean multiple platforms?
23:21:19 <wob_jonas> I won't give you the whole DOS image, it has a whole lot of various software with unclear copyright status. I can give you parts of it if you want.
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23:22:25 <moon___> oh wait dont i need a config too? lol, ill adjust it as needed
23:23:55 <moon___> Hey, why is the word 'Refrigerator' in the topic?
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23:32:55 <wob_jonas> moon__: can you give an email address (in private message) I can send it to?
23:33:17 <wob_jonas> I'll send you my fancy full-featured dos boot floppy, which I used a lot
23:34:19 <wob_jonas> it still has a lot of software with unclear copyright status (including some of norton utilities and norton commander, some of turbo pascal, some of DOS itself, etc), but it's at least less than the whole image
23:34:28 <boily> mhelloon__, wellob_jellonas.
23:34:42 <moon___> If someone pops up to cause issues, i can remove it
23:34:53 <wob_jonas> pity it doesn't have the one useful utility on the image of which the copyright status is clear, my DOS version of the joe editor, whcih I can give separately if you want
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23:54:57 <moon___> wob_jonas: im impatient, is it uploading?
23:56:21 <wob_jonas> if you need the joe-editor, I can send that separately
23:56:30 <wob_jonas> although it's hard to use because my config file for DOS is crap
23:57:39 <moon___> does it work for noninteractive, thats my big question (Yup, doing a thing)
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23:58:05 <wob_jonas> moon__: not alone, you'll need more of DOS to set up that
23:58:11 <wob_jonas> moon__: like, you need ctty probably
23:58:16 <wob_jonas> this mostly has interactive utilities
23:58:39 <moon___> doesnt DOS have ctty by default?
23:59:22 <moon___> also, why did you never writeprotect the boot drive?
23:59:39 <wob_jonas> moon__: so that you can tinker with it
23:59:40 <moon___> remember we formatted C:\?
23:59:59 <wob_jonas> come on, the whole purpose of the bot was to be a sandbox you can break
00:00:12 <wob_jonas> you can even rewrite autoexec so it does something different next time you boot, or boot linux
00:00:26 <wob_jonas> mind you, you could just boot linux from a user disk with a command after booting
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00:02:50 <moon___> actually, is it possible to use the DLX image bochs comes with over the serial port?
00:09:08 <moon___> i'd seriously like the compilers too you know :P, could that come as one last package?
00:09:44 <moon___> Extremely minimal linux, comes with bochs (at least it did for me)
00:10:09 <wob_jonas> you can use linux from serial console much better than dos
00:10:33 <moon___> Ik, how would i do that with DLX tho? :P
00:10:58 <wob_jonas> lots of dos programs use the console and keyboard directly (even for just speed, when they wouldn't need to strictly speaking), but linux programs don't do that, they work fine in a virtual terminal that you control from serial terminal
00:11:11 <moon___> the DLX linux is the bochs demo
00:12:27 <wob_jonas> moon__: ask the linux guys. you probably have to make init spawn gettys on the serial terminal, do some config, and optionally also put the console (boot time and later debug messages and stdio for early userland boot script stuff) to the serial terminal,
00:12:36 <wob_jonas> and optionally put the console for the boot loader to serial terminal.
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00:16:51 <wob_jonas> moon__: I'm unlikely to send you the whole turbo pascal and borland C distributions, or all of dos or its installer, or all of norton utilities or its installer, or all of norton commander or its installer, or the windows or winword or excel installers. I have them, but I probably won't distribute them.
00:17:11 <wob_jonas> I think you can find the turbo pascal and borland C somewhere on the internet
00:17:25 <wob_jonas> finding hungarian version of excel 5 might be more difficult
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00:20:28 <wob_jonas> this stuff isn't even big. I have all the dos stuff on a one gigabyte large image of which about 25% is free space, and it includes all the above and more, and is quite close to what I had on my first computer back when I had 2 decimal gigabytes of hard disk, \
00:21:04 <fizzie> You used to be able to find all that stuff on abandonware sites no problem. Well, maybe not the Hungarian Excel.
00:21:09 <wob_jonas> omitting the linux install on a 850 megabyte partition (to which I had to install and uninstall programs to make them fit because I didn't know what I could safely remove), and omitting the minimal windows 95 install that's on a 50 megabyte sized compressed partition and boots from a floppy. I had no easy way to backup at that point, because hdd or
00:21:41 <wob_jonas> so basically all my useful dos stuff is about 750 megabytes, including installers and games,
00:22:05 <wob_jonas> plus there's a few hundred megabytes (mostly some games) I've lost permanently from a hard disk failure earlier.
00:24:07 <wob_jonas> there's a lot of small old software in there
00:24:32 <izabera> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/711770/fast-implementation-of-rolling-hash am i reading this correctly? they say to compute hash1 = [0]*base^(n-1) + [1]*base^(n-2) + ... + [n-1] but they always multiply by the same number?
00:25:16 * izabera isn't sure because 12 people thought it's correct
00:25:21 <fizzie> I keep a 'dos' directory that I had on a computer, it's full of random silly little programs from the era where I went "well C:\DOS is in PATH so I'll just stick stuff there".
00:25:42 <wob_jonas> fizzie: that's one of the things I cleaned up properly back on dos
00:25:55 <wob_jonas> I made a C:\PATH directory for all the miscellania I run
00:27:44 <fizzie> Which makes no sense, because I did set PATH.
00:28:02 <fizzie> Although I'm pretty sure this autoexec.bat I'm looking at is not mine.
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00:29:06 <wob_jonas> so the path contains C:\PATH;C:\DOS;C:\NC;C:\NU;C:\WINDOWS;C:\BC\BIN;C:\TP\BIN;C:\NAV
00:29:13 <wob_jonas> it varied a bit, but that's basically it
00:29:16 <fizzie> I remember some things (like these goto %config% target labels), but some of them seem really off.
00:29:57 <fizzie> This PATH contains C:\BC45\BIN;C:\IEXPLORE;C:\ANIPAINT;C:\CPQDOS;C:\;C:\DOS;C:\WINDOWS;C:\MOUSE;C:\SB16;C:\PGP;C:\SE;C:\MCAFEE;C:\PMAIL;c:\cdtsr but I'm... a bit suspicious.
00:30:56 <fizzie> (I don't know what all that stuff even is.)
00:32:04 <fizzie> I do remember using 4dos a lot.
00:32:26 <shachaf> i remember borland turbo-c
00:32:34 <wob_jonas> C:\PATH contains the joe editor, mouse, the more frequently used compressors (pkzip, pkunzip, arj, rar), setup.bat that invokes c:\windows\setup because otherwise c:\dos\setup (which is useless) would shadow it, and a few other things
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00:34:19 <moon___> wob_jonas: does the amount of Cylinders Heads and Sectors matter for the DOS img? i bet it does
00:35:04 <wob_jonas> moon__: it sort of might matter. but you can set it to any sane amount.
00:35:15 <wob_jonas> I think it matters only for fdisk basically
00:35:36 <wob_jonas> fdisk just makes sure to write the partition table to cylinder boundary to make it compatible with old stuff
00:35:57 <wob_jonas> set it sanely and then you can't have a problem
00:36:13 <wob_jonas> (basically just set it to 63,255 and as many cylinders as completely fit)
00:36:26 <wob_jonas> and make sure the bios (emulator) and the partition table agree in them
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00:37:04 <moon___> its complaining it cant open the drive image, wtf?
00:37:04 <wob_jonas> the best way for that is to erase the disk to all zeros (not only the partition table, but where each boot sector goes) and then create them with fdisk and format
00:37:35 <moon___> thats what i get for using it on windows *shrug*
00:37:39 <wob_jonas> note that dos (including the format program) is stupid, and will believe some values in the mbr AND the old boot sector blindly, which is why you should zero the boot sector before formatting a drive
00:38:36 <wob_jonas> so start from a clean all zeros hard disk image, boot from boot floppy, partition hard disk with DOS fdisk, reboot, boot from boot floppy, use DOS format command
00:38:43 <wob_jonas> then it's safe to copy data in there
00:39:54 <moon___> its unable to find the disk when i have the path everything and all that, its complaining
00:40:08 <wob_jonas> don't forget to tell fdisk to make the mbr bootable (set boot partition)
00:40:32 <wob_jonas> AND to make the file system bootable by formatting it with format /s or with the DOS sys command after it's formatted (
00:40:48 <moon___> its not loading the floppy for some odd reason
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00:42:48 <wob_jonas> oh, and virtualbox uses some custom disk format for hard disk, not raw hard disk image, so either you have to create the hard disk image with virtualbox, or use some arcane incantations to virtual box to turn a raw image to its favourite format
00:43:08 <moon___> im using bochs, i had it installed, but didnt like it
00:43:51 <moon___> how do i get what discs are avaliable?
00:48:20 <moon___> Srry about being uninformative :P
00:49:26 <wob_jonas> use the fdisk utility, it's interactive and console-based (there's a non-interactive read-only more), it tells how many hard disks the bios sees and how many partitions dos sees on them
00:49:49 <wob_jonas> alternately the de and ndd programs from norton utilities also tell how many physical disks you have
00:51:32 <wob_jonas> then dos sees the partitions as logical disks, denoted by C:, D:, etc, but those letters also include ram drives and cd drives and possibly other, which programs can access logical sector-based through dos, or the file system on them if there's one
00:53:35 <wob_jonas> oh, and lba sectors are numbered from 1, there's no sector 0
00:53:42 <wob_jonas> this one confuses the hell out of me all the time
00:54:00 <wob_jonas> sector number 0 is not used for arcane historical reasons
00:59:28 <moon___> Tip: PowerISO is cancer, dont even peek like it did, i opened installer, and it was offering me random software
01:03:16 <wob_jonas> my joe-editor for dos is about 260 kilobytes in size (not copressed) it seems, including the executable and config file (that's all you need to run) but not sources
01:03:47 <wob_jonas> moon__: tell use how you fare with this
01:04:33 <moon___> Also, Virtualbox finally got that emulator bug fixed, it can now run that one version of the linux kernal that it used to cause a race on
01:05:09 <wob_jonas> moon__: as in, tell me later if you manage to get it working, or where you're stuck
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02:04:07 <moon___> Hmph, anyone know how to prevent people from formating C:\ on MS DOS 6.22?
02:07:35 <moon___> lol, this is in bochs if it help
02:08:17 <oerjan> it doesn't because i have no clue hth
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02:12:45 <oerjan> `? tanebventions: linguistics
02:13:00 <HackEgo> tanebventions: linguistics? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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02:30:13 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:30:28 <boily> `? tanebventions: math
02:30:29 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
02:30:41 <boily> sounds well-rounded.
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03:27:05 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
03:30:00 <hppavilion[1]> Would a wikipedia article for "List of crazy shit said by Donald J. Trump" break NPOV?
03:30:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Obviously, not with that name- probably more along the lines of "List of controversial statements made by Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential race"
03:31:08 <orin> probably not NPOV
03:31:16 <hppavilion[1]> Because, while it is obviously getting /really/ close to NPOV, Trump DOES say a LOT of crazy things that it would be nice to have a neutral lookup of
03:31:41 <oerjan> well, they'd have to make one for hillary too, then.
03:32:02 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump is probably basically that
03:33:02 <hppavilion[1]> And honestly, saying "Donald Trump is an emotionally-unstable compulsive liar" probably doesn't really break NPOV at this point
03:36:21 <orin> hppavilion[1]: he probably won't say that now, now that russia is on his side
03:39:50 <orin> "List of changes to the political positions of Donald Trump"
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04:23:38 <oerjan> . o O ( much adu about nothing )
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04:25:47 <shachaf> Where is a paper I can point someone to that has a formal definition of Leibniz's dy/dx notation?
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04:55:14 <oerjan> Sgeo__: he's in another channel.
04:56:26 <Jafet> do you really need to be formal about it? just divide the height thingy d^2 by the width (dx)^2 to get the slope, then simplify using (dx)^2 = dx^2
05:16:11 <orin> shachaf: I have a book about the hyperreals somewhere
05:16:32 <shachaf> And in NSA they define dy/dx to mean something like the real part of some expression.
05:16:37 <shachaf> It's not literally dy divided by dx
05:25:09 <Jafet> non standard (crypt-)analysis
05:28:14 <orin> shachaf: the derivative of y is the standard (non infinitesimal) part of dy/dx
05:28:41 <shachaf> Right. So dy/du du/dx = dy/dx doesn't make sense seen as canceling.
05:29:17 <orin> shachaf: it does if you use the various properties of the st() function
05:32:19 <orin> in this case, the property st(xy) = st(x)st(y) : x,y finite
05:48:23 <oerjan> not much chance of getting a break in girl genius
05:49:16 * oerjan hopes zeetha and dimo won't get wasped
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07:05:51 <shachaf> I'll probably forget it by the time I read GG.
07:06:28 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
07:06:58 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure my spoiler wasn't precise enough to matter unless you've been recently following.
07:07:25 <shachaf> I didn't mean to make you feel bad.
07:07:35 <shachaf> I should be the one who's apologizing.
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07:08:41 <shachaf> So what does the notation dy/dx mean?
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07:09:33 <oerjan> if y is a function f(x) then it means lim h -> 0 (f(x+h)-f(x))/h, hth
07:10:19 <shachaf> y is a function or an expression?
07:10:31 <oerjan> i already corrected it
07:10:48 <shachaf> Does dy/dx mean D(\x.y)(x)?
07:11:05 <shachaf> That's what I was thinking.
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07:11:20 <shachaf> OK, now people say things like y^2 = x^2; d/dx both sides to get dy/dx = x/y
07:11:27 <shachaf> What's dy/dx in that case?
07:12:52 <oerjan> well, really the same thing.
07:13:44 <shachaf> When y isn't an expression in terms of x?
07:13:49 <oerjan> you're just assuming y is some expression in x.
07:14:06 <oerjan> and you want to solve for it, or something.
07:14:07 <shachaf> How can you use D if you can't make a function \x.y?
07:14:39 <oerjan> just think of y as a meta-variable?
07:14:47 <shachaf> I never meta-variable I didn't like.
07:14:52 <shachaf> But I'm not sure how it helps here.
07:15:09 <oerjan> of course then they'll turn it around and solve x in terms of y.
07:15:54 <shachaf> One property of dy/dx is that dx/dy = 1/(dy/dx)
07:16:40 <oerjan> what you can do is to think of this as both x and y being expressions in a third variable
07:17:40 <oerjan> and then dy = dy/dt * dt, where dt is just a formal term.
07:18:08 <oerjan> an arbitrary nonzero constant, even.
07:18:35 <moonythedwarf> its highlighting (oerjan) and then dy = dy/dt * dt, where dt is just a formal term.
07:19:33 <oerjan> and then dy = dy/dt * dt, where dt is just a formal term.
07:20:17 <moonythedwarf> Got pinged somewhere else just now, also a apparently random highlight, wtf
07:20:44 <oerjan> i think it's your client doing that hth
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07:21:28 <oerjan> check if it has some highlight settings.
07:21:52 <oerjan> and then dy = dy/dt * dt, wh
07:22:05 <oerjan> where dt is just a formal term.
07:22:10 <shachaf> oerjan: you gotta be more like a cpu
07:22:15 <shachaf> start branch predicting hth
07:22:35 <moonythedwarf> Oh lol there was a stray 'a' in my j=highlight settings
07:22:38 <oerjan> it's hard to predict without data
07:22:52 <shachaf> Well, binary search is maximally unpredictable anyway.
07:23:24 <shachaf> But predicting nothing is worse than a wrong prediction.
07:23:31 <shachaf> Unless you care about spam, that is.
07:23:38 <HackEgo> 1/496:1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warr
07:23:44 <HackEgo> 2/496:igal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 7) <SimonRC> TODO:
07:25:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway, what justifies the whole thing where you separate the dy and the dx?
07:26:24 <oerjan> seriously, is not like i formally know this.
07:26:42 <shachaf> No one formally knows this.
07:26:48 <shachaf> But they all use it and it works somehow.
07:28:20 <shachaf> Anyway, can you do these tricks on derivatives with types?
07:28:50 <shachaf> Let's see. T = T^7, so dT/dT = dT^7/dT, so 7*T^6 = 1
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07:42:13 <shachaf> L(x) = 1 + x*L(x), so dL(x)/dx = L(x) + x*dL(x)/dx
07:44:31 <oerjan> hm? that's just differentiating multiplication.
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08:57:45 <b_jonas> "Hmph, anyone know how to prevent people from formating C:\ on MS DOS 6.22?" => I think you don't understand how DOS works. DOS allows all programs full access to your system. Including booting a linux. Make backups if you have sensitive data.
09:09:49 <oerjan> b_jonas: you didn't ping him
09:16:12 <Jafet> are you sure? there were a lot of 'a's in that line
09:16:55 <oerjan> Jafet: i think it was only "a" as a single word, although there's one there.
09:19:44 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: you've been unpinged hth
09:20:02 <oerjan> doesn't look overly present.
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10:30:09 <fizzie> Whoop, the wiki recent-changes bridge seems to have gone away again.
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12:33:04 <b_jonas> ok, so a unitary matrix is a square-shaped complex matrix whose columns are unit length and pairwise orthogonal, but if it's a real matrix then it's called an orthogonal matrix instead of a unitary matrix, and if it's a Christian religious denomination then they call it unitarian instead.
12:33:19 <b_jonas> this terminology is confusing, especially if you also add the Hungarian translations.
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13:29:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49067&oldid=47098 * TuxCrafting * (+41) Added a link to my implementation
13:30:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49068&oldid=49067 * TuxCrafting * (-77) y u lie
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14:54:13 <gamemanj> ...what would happen if you took a board designed to be used with a main processor, but noted that you couldn't use the main processor and could only use the co-processor? (The main processor would be responsible for initial data upload to the co-processor, though)
14:54:33 <gamemanj> Would that, for sufficiently annoying-to-use co-processors, be esoteric? :)
14:57:27 <b_jonas> gamemanj: do you mean a coprocessor like in the Sega Saturn which has two equally powerful processors, or a coprocessor as in an intel 80387 which is totally impossible to use without a 386 because it can't even sequence instructions or compute addresses on its own, or a graphics processor in a modern day computer?
14:57:46 <gamemanj> b_jonas: I was thinking the J1 coprocessor in the Gameduino.
14:59:01 <b_jonas> or say the processor in a large printer or printer-scanner on which you can even play Doom, or the processor in the router which runs linux or bsd even when your desktop is turned off, or the small processor in the keyboard, or the processor in ...
14:59:15 <b_jonas> these days we have powerful processors everywhere
15:00:39 <gamemanj> yep, hence I was thinking of a specific hardware platform in which the coprocessor has, among other things:
15:02:51 <gamemanj> code size limitations, and pretty much all available RAM (afaik not usable as code) is used for some hardware feature or another (so you have to make a choice between RAM or video)
15:03:36 <gamemanj> (like, you could sacrifice tile RAM, or maybe sacrifice sprite palettes/sprite image data)
15:04:22 <gamemanj> (and ofc you can still use the other sprite image RAM areas, but it still means you have less sprite images available)
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15:34:51 <alercah> gamemanj: sounds like graphics code
15:37:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49069&oldid=49068 * TuxCrafting * (+25)
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16:42:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SetBang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49070&oldid=47016 * 63.116.152.166 * (+107) Third blog post.
16:48:16 <ybden> ooh, new setbang post
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16:49:14 <gamemanj> if a language is good for job security, I doubt I want to use it
16:49:40 <gamemanj> because that's usually "you go and everything collapses" kind of security
17:45:53 <orin> wasn't there a language recently where everything is a pointer to a pointer to a pointer?
17:46:31 <orin> and you could only do pinter arithmentic indirected through sevarl pointers as the only opearion?
17:46:57 <ybden> or however it was stylised
17:47:02 <ybden> I tried doing some stuff with that
17:47:29 <orin> three star programmer
17:48:01 <ybden> orin: was that the name of the language, or are you calling me one?
17:49:03 <orin> that's the name
17:57:25 <ybden> Well, both would be correct, then :P
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18:14:01 <MoonyTheDwarf_> Someone please explain why 'Refrigerator' is in the topic
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18:17:05 <quintopia> MoonyTheDwarf_: its the last line of the haiku
18:17:57 <quintopia> telekinetic interdisciplinary refrigerator
18:20:39 <gamemanj> quintopia: ...because anything can be interdisciplinary, right?
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18:43:05 <izabera> `` unidecode $'\357\273\277'
18:43:18 <HackEgo> [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE]
19:07:04 <orin> refigerator also has five syllables in Japanese
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19:25:44 <MoonyTheDwarf_> wanyone know how to set up serial over network for bochs?
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20:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if I can combine it with the Political Compass or something...
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20:40:56 <izabera> protip: don't work in /tmp if it's a tmpfs and there's the slightest chance of a power fail
20:52:57 <hppavilion[1]> Protip: Follow all protips you see, because they're usually good advice
20:53:36 <fizzie> ProtIP: protects your IP address.
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21:02:33 <izabera> what happens if you don't? D:
21:02:51 <izabera> will hackers find where i live and tell isis to kidnap my dog?
21:03:00 <hppavilion[1]> New favorite hard-to-parse-but-still valid ("garden path") sentence: Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?
21:03:10 <int-e> it depends... do you have a dog?
21:05:02 <int-e> time to stop using Isabelle for today... I'm starting to find "by auto blast" amusing.
21:05:33 <izabera> gotta get one of those fancy new dynamic ips
21:12:18 <hppavilion[1]> We shouldn't use Appeals to Tradition in debates because they've always been considered invalid arguments
21:13:52 <hppavilion[1]> Non sequiturs are a bad form of reasoning because space monkeys are trying to conquer the moon
21:16:13 <shachaf> the joke is that you're arguing against classes of arguments by using those arguments themselves
21:16:14 <hppavilion[1]> Ha! Ad Hominem apparently translates to "against the man"
21:17:44 <hppavilion[1]> If we allow Appeal to Fear to be used, then Trump will be elected
21:18:19 <shachaf> what about appeal to rudeness
21:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> My preferred argument is Appeal to the Supreme Court
21:21:55 <hppavilion[1]> But the argument I like to use the most is (1) take the opponent's basic claim/evidence, assume it's true (letting other people debunk that, as I usually do mass debating) (2) show that, even if their evidence is true, their conclusion is still stupid because, once you calculate statistics, their are several other possibilities
21:22:06 <hppavilion[1]> For example, Trump claimed he saw New Jersey muslims cheering on 9/11
21:22:42 <hppavilion[1]> I did the math and found that there are a few thousand muslims in New Jersey whose birthday was on 9/11, so even if he did see that, it could very well have been a coincidence
21:29:52 <izabera> you came up with a pathetic excuse for something that didn't happen in the first place
21:30:31 <izabera> only making your opponent look more credible than you
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21:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Carl is a jackass." - Wikipedia, and not in the context of a quote
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21:48:09 <HackEgo> nundrum//A nundrum is the categorical dual of a conundrum: a problem whose solution is useless.
21:48:55 <HackEgo> turing//Turing is what you are doing when you Tur
21:49:03 <HackEgo> monoid//A monoid is the easy version of a category.
21:49:03 <HackEgo> hexchat//Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham.
21:49:03 <HackEgo> clbin//clbin is a "command line pastebin" web application: https://clbin.com
21:50:08 <shachaf> I thought "turing" meant "using the Internet".
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21:56:58 <moon___> i just got a amazing 46 FPS on a max size embark (dwarf fortress 0.43.05, 64bit)
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22:02:57 <orin> now flood the map with magma and see that go down to less than one
22:04:34 <moon___> it already halved, vut arill, 46 starting fps is new
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22:12:18 <boily> hellochaf, mhelloon___, hellorin!
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22:35:19 <orin> hellwob_jonas!
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22:40:30 <wob_jonas> the large fast SD card I ordered hasn't arrived, even though the delivery was estimated for up to today, and it comes from the UK
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22:42:29 <HackEgo> 2016-08-03 21:42:19.388000000+00:00
22:42:41 <boily> the UK is faraway hth
22:43:07 <wob_jonas> boily: yeah, I heard scary stories
22:44:10 <boily> maybe Taneb is a nazgûl?
22:51:35 <wob_jonas> Hmm... if I digitally edit the airplane boarding pass to remove the LARGE ADS WITH FULL-COLOR PHOTO THAT TAKE UP A THIRD OF THE SHEET to conserve ink, but keep the barcodes and text data, would that be crazy of me?
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22:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-U4kg2cHyP6k/URLY6BOsypI/AAAAAAAAA6E/HGLOlRU1HBc/s1222/foxnewsprime.jpg
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23:04:34 <boily> hppavellon[1]. this makes me angry.
23:05:16 <shachaf> I don't think anyone needs to die.
23:05:25 <shachaf> And I particularly don't think you should talk about killing people.
23:05:26 <hppavilion[1]> Bullet to the stomach seems appropriate, unless there's something more ironic
23:05:44 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Is there any more ironic, less illegal response?
23:06:14 <shachaf> Honestly, your jokes in here aren't funny anyway. I just ignore them.
23:06:23 <shachaf> But this is crossing some line.
23:06:58 <hppavilion[1]> I wasn't so much joking as I was appalled and angry
23:07:01 <int-e> . o O ( http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/serenity.png )
23:07:23 <shachaf> I don't see anything appalling.
23:07:41 -!- augur has joined.
23:07:50 <shachaf> Well, except for the bit where you're talking about murdering people.
23:07:53 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: A person who was tasked with writing a news article that would be read by many Americans about math said that prime number have "very little importance"
23:08:07 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: tswett).
23:08:12 <hppavilion[1]> If it was just one guy being an idiot to himself, it'd be fine
23:08:24 <hppavilion[1]> But this is an article that will be read by lots of people
23:08:33 <shachaf> Prime numbers have very little importance.
23:08:54 -!- Warrigal has joined.
23:08:55 <shachaf> Whereas death threats or whatever have a lot more importance.
23:09:09 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure prime numbers have a lot of importance to society
23:09:37 <shachaf> Small amount of imortance. You can do encryption without prime numbers.
23:09:52 <shachaf> But that's not the point. Even if that person is wrong, your behavior is unacceptable.
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23:11:31 <MoonyTheHuman> read this over. ??? never seen hppavilion[1] use that bad of a joke >_>
23:12:07 <hppavilion[1]> And keep in mind, I saw that in the middle of a long line of fox news fails and lies
23:12:35 <hppavilion[1]> For example, several disproportionate bar graphs where an increase of 1 would be represented as 8 times as much
23:12:42 <int-e> shachaf: it's a coping mechanism, though a bit leaky
23:13:35 <myname> hppavilion[1]: just don't do news
23:14:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I have family that watches Fox News exclusively, so this is personal for me
23:14:40 <boily> int-e: int-ello. serenity?
23:14:52 <MoonyTheHuman> hmm.. Gimmie the latest D-Wave computer and a good prime number calculator. done. moar
23:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> What would be a better form of math education in the US
23:15:24 <hppavilion[1]> What classes should be mandatory (at what grades can they be taken, what grades must they be taken by), what do they cover, what options should be mandatorily available?
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23:17:24 <int-e> boily: as long as I avoid reading between the lines
23:18:05 <shachaf> int-e: Perhaps I should use an IRC client that supports temporarily showing ignored text.
23:18:26 <hppavilion[1]> I do think schools should teach logic of some sort
23:18:45 <hppavilion[1]> (at least, a half-semester class where they go over logical fallacies and say why they're wrong and you shouldn't use them)
23:18:54 <myname> so that less people get reasonable grades?
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23:20:22 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i have to tell you a truth
23:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> 'logical fallacies' with the latin name and shit are kind of useless
23:20:41 <hppavilion[1]> myname: On average, people are average intelligence.
23:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Not really; and it would cover informal ones too
23:21:04 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't make most of the people less stupid
23:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> cognitive biases are the empirically-measurable equivalent and they don't work like a little book of Reasons People Are Wrong Online
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23:24:21 <boily> just opened my first pickled peppers. they taste good ^^
23:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> you could go full UEF and try to coach people out of the fundamental attribution error but i imagine it'd be p tricky in real life
23:28:09 <oerjan> Good evening, shachaf.
23:29:25 <boily> . o O ( baroi lyereko??? I have no fungotting clue... )
23:29:30 * oerjan notes that his procedure for reading the logs has become ridiculously convoluted.
23:30:11 <boily> ubusuku oerjabuhle
23:30:14 <int-e> oerjan: not quite the same https://xkcd.com/609/
23:30:19 <oerjan> boily: it's transliterated, anyway.
23:31:03 <oerjan> . o O ( is there a rickrolling wiki )
23:31:46 <oerjan> i assume ukrainian would use something dobry-like, like any good slavic language?
23:32:45 <boily> yeah, dobroho večora.
23:32:45 <oerjan> except i can guess it's a bantu language?
23:33:12 <boily> yours is some sami variant?
23:33:25 <shachaf> oerjan: jolly good show, old chap
23:33:31 <int-e> oerjan: (never) I (gonna) sincerely (give) hope (you) that (up) there (never) is (gonna) no (let) such (you) thing! (down!)
23:34:08 * boily subliminally mapoles int-e
23:34:23 <oerjan> i haven't used sami because the phrases i found did not seem to attach well to boily.
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23:35:44 <boily> not yet, still searching.
23:37:17 <oerjan> int-e: to read the logs, i'm (1) making sure tunes is shown in utf-8 (it isn't always. in some cases i cannot even show it but have to save.) (2) copy into vim (3) break lines (4) load file in browser.
23:38:38 <oerjan> also the line breaking is convoluted too. i should make a macro.
23:39:53 <HackEgo> L½Ûµìüª¦¼ÐÝæÕ}9´Ï]Jmç
¾í[¸Ï¯0³óUÔ.Fi¸
23:40:15 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a normal mode command that only inserts one break (and indent) per affected line, so i repeat until it stops.
23:41:29 <oerjan> :%s/\(.\{75\}\) /\1^M /
23:42:37 <shachaf> Why don't you make a small web page that fetches the latest log, applies transformation, and serves it to your browser?
23:43:11 <shachaf> Then you could just go to that URL directly. It'd be so easy.
23:43:58 <oerjan> oh i forgot the step where i sometimes join two days hth
23:44:39 <shachaf> With only a small amount of work you can ask for the logs for any time interval.
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23:48:20 <oerjan> ...so ghc is going to get a "bespoke" keyword.
23:49:04 <oerjan> it's not a word i'm intuitively familiar with, although the dictionary meaning _does_ fit.
23:49:50 <oerjan> (it means to apply the specialized deriving method for a builtin class.)
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23:50:29 <oerjan> although it may not be used that much, being the default whenever applicable.
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00:08:41 <zzo38> You can also type "view-source:" in front of the URL to force it to display in the browser (at least this works for Firefox and other Mozilla-based browsers).
00:10:10 <shachaf> Does it work in Mozilla Navigator?
00:12:40 <Sgeo__> shachaf, do you play Dominion?
00:13:01 <Sgeo__> Also ais523 isn't here, I wanted to tell him thanks for being a good historian
00:13:25 <Sgeo__> Or... whatever you call it when someone meticulously documents stuff for the benefit of future historians
00:14:25 <fizzie> I think I've played Dominion once at a birthday party. If that's referring to the card game.
00:14:48 <Sgeo__> I learned the rules and might try playing through the tutorial tonight
00:15:06 <Sgeo__> It's evenly matched like Prismata but has RNG
00:15:53 <shachaf> OK, then let's play Prismata.
00:16:46 <fizzie> Thanks, but no-thanks. Sounds too reasonable a thing to do.
00:18:24 * Sgeo__ is reading http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg07043.html
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00:29:12 <Sgeo__> Huh, that was an office in Agora that I apparently held but don't remember holding
00:30:57 * oerjan stealthily takes a DNA sample of MoonyThe"Human"
00:33:30 * oerjan puts the sample into the analyzer
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00:34:45 * oerjan wonders why the analyzer ran away screaming
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00:35:39 <boily> MoonyTheHuman: you aren't human. you're a moon hth
00:35:53 <Sgeo__> boily, like Prozac the Bear?
00:36:33 <MoonyTheHuman> I dunno what i am, have a list of usernames: MoonyTheHuman, qbitn, MoonyTheDwarf, moon, moon_, moon__, moon___, moonheart08
00:36:55 <MoonyTheHuman> note that qbitn is new, i wanted something original :P
00:37:44 <oerjan> hm Prozac the Bear, that was a long time ago. i don't even remember clearly what he was.
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00:40:18 <Sgeo__> oerjan, Triangle and Robert character
00:40:58 <oerjan> Sgeo__: i know that. i just don't remember how far he was from being a bear. probably a lot, given the comic.
00:42:11 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
00:42:16 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that doesn't exist. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:43:02 <shachaf> `slwd #esoteric//s-doesn't exist-exists-
00:43:06 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:43:37 <oerjan> `slwd #esoteric/s/about/a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about/
00:43:50 <oerjan> `slwd #esoteric//s/about/a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about/
00:43:54 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:44:36 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric:#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:44:56 <shachaf> `slwd #esoteric//s#burrito#whatever#
00:44:58 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperwhatever about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:45:04 <shachaf> Just about anything is an improvement over burrito jokes.
00:45:52 <oerjan> shachaf: but the original has taco ;_;
00:46:19 <oerjan> `slwd #esoteric//s#whatever#enchilada#
00:46:22 <HackEgo> wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts.
00:46:35 <oerjan> shachaf: triangle and robert's world is a 4-dimension hypertaco hth
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01:20:17 <MoonyTheHuman> [BODY:QUADRUPED_NECK:2EYES:4EARS:8NOSE:16LUNGS:32HEART:64GUTS:128ORGANS:256THROAT:512NECK:1024SPINE:2048BRAIN] << i seriously regret putting this on cats
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01:31:51 <boily> uhm. are they the number of body parts, or some other random stats?
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01:45:30 <boily> holy fungot may you have mercy on us all...
01:45:30 <fungot> boily: to find. initiates my bad reaction of companies that the attached and let it go with maureen's december 22nd.
01:45:53 * boily will try to not have nightmares about these Teratomorphic Kitties
01:47:18 <MoonyTheHuman> Wow in this DF world Dingo Men are the most successful
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01:55:47 * boily confusingly mapoles Phantom_Hoover
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02:07:10 <MoonyTheHuman> 4EARS:8NOSE:16LUNGS:32HEART:64GUTS:128ORGANS:256THROAT:512NECK:1024SPINE:2048BRAIN
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02:10:39 <boily> I am not there. I am an illusion.
02:10:50 * boily flees and hides under covers
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02:27:55 <oerjan> quintopia: i am not sure when's the last time i beered. it may have been a family visit some years ago. on rare occasions i cognac or aquavit. hm, i haven't had wine in a while either.
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02:50:12 <quintopia> oerjan: i just tried a Nøgne Ø doible IPA and it was pretty bad so so far norways beer performance is a bit lacking
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02:59:28 <Zarutian> hmm.. Anyone know of any macro extensible version of LOOP or other esolang that is basically at the primitive recursive function level of completeness?
02:59:46 <oerjan> i have a problem with the GHC user's guide. its table of contents needs a table of contents.
03:02:09 <oerjan> Zarutian: i got confused because BlooP is like the last part of that.
03:06:07 <Zarutian> I was thinking if combining something like such macro LOOP with something like Postscript display model or RIPSCRIP|NAPLPS plus outside eventlooping would yeild somewhat usable software whose turns|iteration of the eventloop are known to terminate*
03:07:36 <Zarutian> (* property of primitive recursive functions that by construction they do terminate as the only backbranching (or backjumping) construct is a countdown loop whose counter is only set right before it is entered)
03:14:27 <Cale> good ol' BBSes
03:17:02 <HackEgo> Cale: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:22:15 <shachaf> `` ln -s relcome bin/welcome
03:22:37 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:23:34 <Cale> Is the choice of starting colour randomised, or based on the user's name?
03:23:41 <Cale> `welcome HackEgo
03:23:43 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:23:52 <Cale> `relcome HackEgo
03:23:54 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:23:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
03:24:05 <HackEgo> #!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
03:26:30 * oerjan notes that no one `relcomed Zarutian, but isn't sure whether e's new or not.
03:27:45 <Cale> shachaf: haha, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow-growing_hierarchy#Relation_to_fast-growing_hierarchy
03:28:59 <shachaf> That article title looks like a joke.
03:30:34 * Zarutian wonders what HackEgo would do with: curl -sS https://gist.githubusercontent.com/zarutian/9191d98f731241a52e1a4f6a59dd0587/raw/f4b7cee07dea66e8721ded9559059245e79bdf9b/test.sh | tee test.sh | openssl dgst -sha256 | { read k; if [ "$k" == "113b61457034e72b9a12eb875df5ed71e265dcc6105c00e472187d30c0cc8c88" ] ; then source test.sh ; else echo "failed"; fi }
03:32:29 <Zarutian> btw that is a demostration of a better curlpipebash though such things are still rather bad
03:34:02 <Zarutian> `echo -n "bla" | openssl dgst -sha256
03:34:04 <HackEgo> -n "bla" | openssl dgst -sha256
03:35:09 <shachaf> Also you can /msg HackEgo to try things out.
03:35:17 <shachaf> Just make sure that if you change anything you do it in the channel.
03:35:20 <HackEgo> WARNING: can't open config file: /usr/lib/ssl/openssl.cnf \ (stdin)= 4df3c3f68fcc83b27e9d42c90431a72499f17875c81a599b566c9889b9696703
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03:46:47 <shachaf> `le/rn mustard watch/A mustard watch is just a classical watch extended with a certain amount of mustard in the mechanism.
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06:18:06 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
06:27:35 <oerjan> `` rgrep 'of the day' wisdom
06:27:44 <HackEgo> wisdom/markdown:The markdown flavor of the day is walnut.
06:28:16 <oerjan> `slwd markdown//s/walnut/camphor/
06:28:20 <HackEgo> wisdom/markdown//The markdown flavor of the day is camphor.
06:34:55 <shachaf> `learn The number of the hour is 14.
06:34:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'number': The number of the hour is 14.
06:35:43 <zzo38> Now I added the program to make hint files into FreeUHS.
06:36:04 <zzo38> Please look at the documentation and tell me if it is good or not good or whatever.
06:36:17 <shachaf> But you didn't provide a link to the documentation.
06:37:06 <zzo38> https://www.npmjs.com/package/freeuhs
06:39:52 <zzo38> It also has JSON export and SQL export.
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10:09:05 <zzo38> Falling on top of what?
10:09:22 <zzo38> When I type these messages on this computer, it makes noise; it doesn't silence.
10:12:15 <gamemanj> if you threw silence off of a cliff, would it fall?
10:19:42 <hppavilion[1]> Trump's odds of winning (according to five3eight) have dropped to about 25%
10:23:48 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: So instead, we'll probably get... Hillary
10:25:08 <zzo38> You have to injure both candidates so that they will not recover in time.
10:25:34 <gamemanj> Well. You'll probably get Hillary. I, on the other hand, will be sipping tea and watching as the rotten tomatoes get flung over that golf course I heard about.
10:26:26 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Where do you live and how hard will it be to flee there?
10:26:53 <gamemanj> At least one famous ship hit an iceberg when trying to get from here to where you are.
10:27:04 <gamemanj> Where "here" is at the country level.
10:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember the Titanic aiming for New York
10:27:33 <gamemanj> If the titanic was aiming for New York
10:27:39 <gamemanj> then where was it coming from?
10:29:00 <gamemanj> Yes. So if it was going *from* Europe
10:30:39 <fizzie> http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/531/391/b58.gif is what people hereabouts tend to use when they've done something like that.
10:31:42 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: I thought it was the shame matrix of solidity?
10:32:05 <fizzie> I don't know where it's from. Know Your Meme just has the image in their gallery, no explanations.
10:32:08 <int-e> it's a box you can... meditate... in
10:33:10 <int-e> (now I'm wondering why Portal doesn't feature one of those... it would fit perfectly)
10:33:57 <int-e> Perhaps you could even use one to capture turrets.
10:34:57 <int-e> Which would be much more turricula
10:35:08 <int-e> Which would be much more turriculane than the usual technique of knocking them over?
10:37:26 <fizzie> To jump back to the original conversation -- given recent events, I'd think fleeing to here is going to be increasingly difficult, what with this whole "get all them foreigners out" stuff.
11:00:14 <shachaf> But almost everyone in England is a foreigner.
11:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, are we talking about immigration recently or about the fact that Americans are all immigrants unless they're native?)
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11:22:09 <shachaf> We're talking about the fact that people in England tend not to be US citizens, under a US-centric view of the world.
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11:45:40 <boily> only if you use them as /-substitutes hth
12:11:14 <HackEgo> arabic//.scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA
12:11:17 <HackEgo> guestbot//guestbot is nobody
12:12:10 <boily> how the fungot am I supposed to format wisdom/arabic in the PDF...
12:12:37 <shachaf> I'd half a mind to delete it.
12:12:58 <HackEgo> <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <Bike> revert \ <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ <guestbot> learn guestbot is nobody
12:13:09 <gamemanj> boily: Well, by the look of it, it's just in reverse
12:13:22 <b_jonas> shachaf: feel free to revert it
12:15:25 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
12:15:35 <boily> yes, but I'd like for the arabic part to be to the right. and maybe LaTeX supports character reflections, so it can really be RTL.
12:17:25 <b_jonas> boily: don't do character reflections for this. reflect the whole paragraph.
12:19:08 <boily> uuh... that's what I meant, just checking if somebody paid attention...
12:19:36 <b_jonas> but I think the arabic entry shouldn't be reflected
12:19:55 * boily tries to whistle innocently, but only splits bits of peanut butter toast
12:19:57 <b_jonas> you should either just show it as is, or show it aligned to the right margin instead of the left
12:20:19 <boily> ss\split\ss\spit\ss
12:28:19 <hppavilion[1]> How long do you think it is before fandoms dominate enough of the world that politicians start having to pander to them?
12:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, Ted Cruz officially* endorsed Applejack as best pony
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12:38:32 <HackEgo> 000000 2e 73 63 69 68 70 79 6c 67 6f 72 65 69 48 20 73 >.scihpylgoreiH s< \ 000010 61 20 64 72 61 68 20 73 61 20 74 6f 6e 20 68 67 >a drah sa ton hg< \ 000020 75 6f 68 74 20 2c 74 72 6f 70 70 75 73 20 73 74 >uoht ,troppus st< \ 000030 6e 6f 66 20 65 6b 61 6d 20 6f 74 20 64 72 61 68 >nof ekam ot drah< \ 000040 20 79 72 65 76 20 73 69 20 74 61 68
12:48:20 <Jafet> `echo Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics.
12:48:21 <HackEgo> Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics.
12:48:41 <Jafet> I wonder how many terminals display that correctly.
12:49:07 <nortti> I know of three. os x terminal.app, pangoterm, and one I can't remember the name of
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13:01:56 <FreeFull> Jafet: What counts as correctly, and what as incorrectly?
13:02:59 <FreeFull> I saw this (typed out rather than copy-pasted): "Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics."
13:03:08 <FreeFull> Is that what it's supposed to look like?
13:13:06 <gamemanj> What I see is ",troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA not as hard as Hieroglyphics."
13:13:30 <gamemanj> Oh, there's also "hguoht" at the start.
13:13:41 <gamemanj> I was wondering where that "though" went.
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13:38:25 <b_jonas> oh, then why didn't you say that, stupid error message?
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14:03:32 <Jafet> gamemanj: that's a... novel interpretation of RTLO.
14:04:22 <Jafet> hmm, most articles about the RTLO seem to be about using it to spoof filename extensions.
14:06:27 <gamemanj> Jafet: Well, word-wrapping break.
14:06:54 <gamemanj> It's after "cibarA" that it wraps to the next line.
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16:42:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49071&oldid=19937 * Weux082690 * (+513) /* Boolean Logic */ new section
16:43:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49072&oldid=49071 * Weux082690 * (+92) /* Boolean Logic */
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20:07:24 <haavard> Does anyone know of a simple black-box testing framework I can use to test my esolang interpreter? As in, running my program with lots of different input and testing for output or performance regressions
20:07:47 <haavard> I'm using a home-made shell script currently, but it feels like I'm reinventing the wheel
20:08:51 <gamemanj> home-made shell scripts are pretty useful to get things quickly. As long as you don't try embedding a scripting language into it...
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20:09:26 <gamemanj> There's probably a better way, but it depends what language your esolang interpreter is written in
20:10:13 <haavard> It's worked pretty well so far, but it only checks stdout/stderr output. I'd love to be able to monitor performance improvements/regressions, but that complicates things a lot
20:10:21 <haavard> FWIW, the interpreter is written in C
20:15:54 <gamemanj> Perhaps consider a define to load & run the test suite from a file (alternating code/input/output) then write out the test times to another file?
20:16:09 <gamemanj> That way you don't end up covering binary start times, which will always be off on the first test,
20:16:36 <gamemanj> (There's some complex stuff about caching which I don't think anybody entirely understands)
20:17:14 <gamemanj> (Maybe there should be a sysfs interface for finding out about - and potentially adding to - the cache...)
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20:18:36 <haavard> I feel like I'm gonna spend more time creating a test system than improving the interpreter
20:33:03 <quintopia> @tell boily USPS is chatting with Postes Canada to find out why this package was returned to me. They'll get back to me by Sep. 8. Is this too long to wait for redress y/n?
20:34:50 <gamemanj> haavard: That's true. You'd probably spend more time configuring any test system you get than the interpreter, anyway.
20:35:36 <gamemanj> haavard: So, you'd probably end up spending more time either way than if you stick with the shell script...
20:36:25 <haavard> Yeah, I'm sticking with the basic shell script for now. The only thing it lacks is performance testing, anyway
20:37:46 <gamemanj> Easily doable just with a few additional lines in the program itself to check the time at the start & end.
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20:55:07 <int-e> Somehow I think Cindercone is getting hacked.
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21:03:01 <izabera> what's the expected run time of a program that mmaps a 4gb file on a machine with less than 4gb free ram, and then writes a byte in 1 million random positions on that file?
21:05:38 <gamemanj> Around about 8.2zorks. The realtime values depend on, for starters, HDD density, kernel version, and magic.
21:06:06 <izabera> i don't know how much magic i get
21:06:24 <gamemanj> Oh, no, it's not how much magic.
21:06:35 <gamemanj> It's just magic itself provides the answer. Kind of.
21:06:57 <gamemanj> ...in all seriousness, though, IDK? Try it and find out! :)
21:08:12 <gamemanj> I'm pretty sure HDD density and kernel version are major factors, but so are things like "what else is currently causing HDD usage" and "what other programs does the kernel consider a priority..."
21:08:52 <gamemanj> Like, if you were running two copies of this program, you'd get different results.
21:13:05 <int-e> What's the actual read granularity of modern drives? I imagine it could be larger than the typical 4kb page size...
21:14:44 <pikhq> It depends on the drive, but most commonly it's 4k on new spinning rust.
21:15:19 <int-e> anyway if it were 4kb, then you'd be loading about 1.47GB of data... if that fits in the RAM and the read heads don't have to move you're looking at about half an hour. In practice, I wouldn't be surprised to be off by a factor of 4 in either direction, and possibly more.
21:16:02 <int-e> The real answer is to measure, not guess.
21:16:22 <int-e> the kernel will read in
21:16:36 <izabera> well ok but it can discard each page as soon as it's read
21:16:54 <int-e> and that's the slow part... writing out can be delayed and done in a nice escalator algorithm fashion so I expect it will actually be quite a bit faster.
21:17:02 <int-e> izabera: it won't.
21:17:24 <pikhq> It won't unless you specifically tell it to with madvise.
21:17:26 <int-e> and since you're going to read each sector approximately e times, it's actually worthwhile to keep them around
21:17:55 <int-e> s/sectore/4kb block/
21:18:31 <pikhq> If you say MADV_DONTNEED each time it still probably *won't* immediately flush to disk.
21:19:23 <int-e> Hmm, are MADV_DONTNEED pages zeroed eagerly?
21:19:42 <izabera> what's the difference between MADV_FREE and MADV_DONTNEED
21:19:50 <izabera> the man page isn't clear about it
21:20:01 <int-e> (just realiizing that I know dangerously little about the specifics of Linux' memory management)
21:20:39 <pikhq> int-e: They're not zeroed *at all*.
21:21:07 <int-e> pikhq: afaiui there's a pool of zeroed pages for mmap of /dev/zero.
21:21:35 <pikhq> MADV_DONTNEED only informs the kernel that a given memory range won't be accessed soon, so the kernel is free to discard the in-memory page (in which case reads will trigger a load from the backing store).
21:21:42 <int-e> which is very useful because the C library likes to satsify large calloc requests that way
21:22:03 <int-e> (and malloc... not clearing pages would produce data leaks)
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21:22:47 <pikhq> MADV_FREE does MADV_DONTNEED, but if it discards the in-memory page it will zero-fill on demand (i.e. COW a zero page) instead of loading from backing store.
21:23:17 <pikhq> MADV_DONTNEED also works on any memory mapping, while MADV_FREE only works on private anonymous pages.
21:24:03 <izabera> pikhq: that's totally not in the man page
21:24:23 <pikhq> So: MADV_DONTNEED is a minor potential optimization for reducing the working set. MADV_FREE is usable by a malloc's free() implementation.
21:24:54 <int-e> shachaf: you're just as helpful as usual
21:25:04 <shachaf> It doesn't have the same feel to it now that elliott is gone.
21:25:40 <izabera> would MADV_DONTDUMP also improve performance somehow?
21:26:02 <pikhq> Only when you're crashing.
21:26:09 <shachaf> int-e: Really? I think that's a lot less helpful than usual.
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21:26:53 <shachaf> I couldn't take participate in this conversation on my phone, anyway.
21:27:06 <int-e> shachaf: I believe that you only add "hth" when whatever you say is not, actually, very helpful.
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21:27:37 <shachaf> Well, that's the standard usage in this channel.
21:27:41 <int-e> which is perfectly fine, btw
21:27:53 <shachaf> Sometimes I put it on helpful things, though.
21:28:05 <shachaf> Gotta keep people on their toes, right?
21:28:34 <pikhq> izabera: The situation you describe would best fit MADV_RANDOM, yeah.
21:30:34 <int-e> hmm, I wonder whether it would be worthwhile to make a list of 1000 random addresses, tell the kernel that they will be needed using MADV_WILLNEED, and then start modifying the bytes...
21:30:56 <int-e> ...the theory being that this gives the kernel an opportunity to schedule the disk reads nicely
21:31:13 <shachaf> Oh, do you know the addresses in advance?
21:31:45 <int-e> shachaf: it's just chunking
21:32:56 <int-e> basically, instead of generating a random address for each write access, I would generate a few in advance, then write.
21:33:10 <int-e> this may not be possible in all cases.
21:41:38 <int-e> and I also have no clue whether it actually pays off... it's a matter of magic.
21:47:42 <int-e> grrrr @mercurial... why does a hg revert -a not clear the resolution status of files
21:48:14 <int-e> shachaf: why is that?
21:48:55 <shachaf> It blocks the whole thread when there's a page fault, so it's unusable if you implement your own threading.
21:49:43 <int-e> well that means you don't like any virtual memory management at all
21:50:11 <shachaf> Or I want it to integrate with my userspace threads better.
21:51:12 <gamemanj> If you're worried about page faults, just have a thread controlling access to the memory, and then use FIFOs to send commands to/from it.
21:51:21 <gamemanj> How will you allocate memory for these FIFOs? mmap, of course...
21:51:33 <gamemanj> page faults take up time, that's the nature of page faults.
21:52:18 <int-e> I see no sane other way. The thing that causes the page fault is a plain CPU instruction... So whatever alternative instructions you want to have executed while the page is loaded, the kernel will have to know about. That's what OS threads are for.
21:52:52 <shachaf> Well, asynchronous page faults could be an option.
21:53:37 <gamemanj> When a page fault is executing, your program is in the middle of an instruction.
21:53:40 <int-e> I think you'd have to talk to CPU desgners about that.
21:53:43 <gamemanj> There's not really any better API that is possible.
21:55:16 <int-e> It should be possible to have instructions that check whether a page is currently mapped. and I could imagine triggering some sort of "soft" page fault as well [arguably madvise fills that niche already].
21:55:42 <int-e> But it needs serious effort and I'm not convinced it's worth it.
21:55:56 <shachaf> Checking whether a page is currently mapped has a race condition, of course.
21:56:03 <shachaf> Unless that instruction is mlock or something.
21:56:16 <shachaf> Er, never mind, "instruction".
21:56:22 <gamemanj> By that, do you mean that the page can be unmapped before you actually do anything with it?
21:56:54 <int-e> And with Linux, you can have page faults on any memory access anyway. Code is loaded using mmap, and basically anything can be swapped.
21:57:17 <gamemanj> To put it simply... If you are working on a system where the memory is managed for you, expect the memory to be managed for you.
21:57:59 <shachaf> Well, I'd like my RTS to manage my memory, not the kernel.
21:58:14 <shachaf> Or at least I have to have it do that.
21:58:23 <shachaf> My thoughts are not coherent right now.
21:58:44 <gamemanj> Well, I'm sure there's some way to coerce the kernel with some specific obscure features.
21:59:09 <gamemanj> And by "coerce" I mean "make it so page faults are not a thing, ever, unless you are using mmap for file IO"
22:00:00 <int-e> presumably mlock (shachaf mentioned it) goes a long way in that direction
22:00:22 <gamemanj> When what more is there to say? :)
22:01:13 <int-e> gamemanj: rhetorical questions are dangerous on here... they tend to get answered.
22:01:48 <gamemanj> Then why haven't pigs started to fly?
22:01:58 <int-e> gamemanj: physics!
22:02:10 <gamemanj> I was hoping pigs would start to fly. :(
22:02:32 <int-e> gamemanj: I guess a catapult would do the trick
22:02:38 <int-e> gamemanj: or an airplane
22:03:52 <gamemanj> "Delivery on receipt of one (1) English pound to the first person who walks to <geolocation> with a picture of a pig on an aeroplane - preferably piloting it."
22:04:06 <gamemanj> ...would be what I was writing if I was living in the 1900's.
22:05:12 <gamemanj> Of course, the person would just fly the aeroplane there,
22:05:38 <gamemanj> and then walk about it a bit so as to meet the second requirement.
22:05:50 <gamemanj> *first requirement, not second.
22:06:17 <gamemanj> And then they'd ask for two pounds just because they cheated the system.
22:07:16 <Jafet> it would be nice to have asynchronous L2 caches
22:08:08 <int-e> I mean, to some extent this idea is implemented
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22:08:39 <Jafet> I wonder if you can detect this by pinning pairs of hyperthreads so that each one wakes up when the other faults
22:09:49 <int-e> yes, hyperthreads *are* a target for side channel attacks
22:10:11 * Zarutian wonders what the fuck 'hyper'-threads are.
22:10:19 <int-e> (not quite what you said, but this has real world security implications)
22:10:32 <int-e> Zarutian: several threads running on a single core
22:10:36 <izabera> fun thing: try truncating a file that's being mmaped by someone else
22:10:57 <alercah> Zarutian: hyperthreads are when a single processor interleaves computations on multiple threads as if it were two separate CPUs
22:10:58 <Zarutian> int-e: how is that diffrent from usual multithreading?
22:11:09 <izabera> it causes a bus error in the process that mmaped that file
22:11:11 <alercah> Zarutian: it's hardware-level
22:11:16 <int-e> Zarutian: the idea is that each thread will suffer from latencies and not use all execution units, so two threads can better use the core.
22:11:19 <izabera> is there even any way to detect that before it happens?
22:11:25 <Zarutian> alercah: oh, an never works fast.
22:11:30 <int-e> Zarutian: more traditionally, threads would be one per core.
22:12:19 <Zarutian> int-e: hyperthreads each seems to suffer from the combined latencies of two or more threads.
22:12:25 <int-e> Zarutian: from a logical point of view there is no difference to normal multithreading (that's pretty much the point really).
22:12:51 <int-e> Zarutian: they are designed to improve total throughput.
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22:13:07 <int-e> they will slow down individual threads (hopefully only slightly)
22:14:08 <Zarutian> int-e: total throughbut yes, overall slowdown much more noticable. (At least in soft-hard realtime applications such as interactive A/V processing)
22:15:48 <int-e> it's application specific. I care a lot about make -j wallclock time and then hyperthreading is actually a good thing
22:17:51 <int-e> and in principle a kernel could reserve a whole core for realtime threads (reducing latencies) and use hyperthreading for batch threads (improving throughput). Is that done?
22:17:54 <Zarutian> isnt make mostly IO bound and that to mass storage?
22:18:26 <int-e> It depends. Recompiling stuff (after editing a file) tends to be served from the fs cache.
22:18:29 <Zarutian> int-e: I think hyperthreading is just turned on by default without any regard of this issues.
22:18:34 <Jafet> make is mostly the-build-tools-it-runs-bound.
22:19:30 <int-e> I'm mainly talking about make because it's what I use for parallelization of those other tools.
22:20:03 <Jafet> linux probably assumes that people who set up real-time systems know how to pin them to cpus.
22:20:51 <Jafet> and how to come up with scheduling priorities that don't lock up the whole system.
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22:42:56 <moon___> 76.1.72.128 at port 5138 << little telnet based chat im working on, it already has nicknames and so far only one bug i can find which might just be microsoft telnet being wierd
22:44:42 <myname> irc already is a little telnet based chat
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22:45:09 <moon___> ik lol, im just writing it for fun
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23:00:23 <tswett> Here's a vague question.
23:00:28 <tswett> Suppose I have a group presentation.
23:00:38 <tswett> How can I write a nice machine-readable proof that the group it presents is finite?
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23:01:39 <tswett> There's a decision problem there, of course: given a group presentation, determine whether or not the presented group is finite.
23:01:56 <tswett> Is that decision problem even semidecidable in either direction?
23:02:24 <tswett> To prove that the group given by a presentation is finite, you can get part of the way by specifying a multiplication table for the group.
23:02:29 <int-e> "presentation" is the thing with generators and equations, right?
23:02:42 <tswett> It's easy to verify that the group given by the multiplication table has all the generators and satisfies all the equations.
23:03:06 <int-e> it's tempting to think that finiteness is semidecidable :P
23:03:13 <int-e> but probably wrong.
23:03:55 <tswett> I think I've got it. Yes, it's semidecidable.
23:04:11 <tswett> Suppose that the generated group is, in fact, finite. Then there's a proof that it's finite, consisting of...
23:04:22 <int-e> lots of equational proofs
23:04:44 <tswett> A multiplication table, where every element of the multiplication table is written in terms of the generators.
23:05:04 <int-e> I shouldn't have guessed wrong in the first place... from my theoretical background this should've been immediately obvious. lala
23:05:07 <tswett> Each generator must be present as one of the elements of the multiplication table.
23:05:27 <tswett> And finally, prove that each of the equations implied by the multiplication table follows from the presentation.
23:06:19 <tswett> That's not necessarily a very concise proof, though.
23:06:36 <int-e> but it settles the question
23:07:17 <tswett> But I'm wondering how to write a *nice* machine-readable proof that the generated group is finite.
23:09:36 <tswett> Here's a group presentation written in terse notation:
23:09:45 <tswett> Whoops, lemme try again.
23:10:41 <tswett> According to this page, that group presentation is for A5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group
23:10:56 <tswett> But A5 has 60 elements.
23:11:05 <tswett> So its multiplication table has 3600 entries.
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23:12:15 <tswett> What's a "nice" way, then, to prove that the generated group is finite?
23:16:04 <int-e> well, you can reduce the multiplication table size; you only need to be able to multiply by generators and their inverses
23:17:31 <tswett> Hmm. http://mathoverflow.net/questions/7721/what-methods-exist-to-prove-that-a-finitely-presented-group-is-finite
23:17:37 <int-e> or perhaps you can produce a complete list of suffixes that are each equivalent to a shorter one
23:17:57 <int-e> and then I'd investigate (Knuth-Bendix) completion in this context
23:18:37 <int-e> (hmm, prefixes are conceptually easier)
23:19:50 <int-e> (I had not looked at the link when I suggested Knuth-Bendix completion)
23:21:48 <int-e> I guess the main point of doing completion would be to actually find equational proofs.
23:21:52 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tietze_transformations - maybe you could prove that a group is finite by using Tietze transformations to turn its presentation into one that's "obviously" finite.
23:23:06 <tswett> Are there any finitely presented groups which are infinite, but where every element has finite order?
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23:34:23 <lambdabot> quintopia said 3h 1m 20s ago: USPS is chatting with Postes Canada to find out why this package was returned to me. They'll get back to me by Sep. 8. Is this too long to wait for redress y/n?
23:34:35 <HackEgo> hockey//Hockey is okey, but parsley is gharsley.
23:35:08 <tswett> I guess one "easy" way to prove that a finitely presented group is finite is by showing that every expression longer than a certain length is equivalent to a shorter one.
23:35:30 <boily> @tell quintopia quinthellopia. I'll be on vacation between September 3 and September 18 inclusive. Like, really on vacation. Like, on another continent. If you could resend after that, that'd be great. I'll be home at that time.
23:36:15 <tswett> Like, consider this group presentation in terse notation:
23:36:39 <tswett> It's a group presentation.
23:36:44 <int-e> tswett: I think I pretty much suggested this
23:36:47 <quintopia> helloily. if you'd rather pick it up in person, come meet me at niagara falls on october 9th...
23:37:19 <tswett> Every expression for that group presentation contains one of these four subexpressions: aa, aa', a'a, a'a'
23:37:25 <tswett> Each of which is equivalent to e.
23:37:26 <boily> niagara falls is what... 9 hours from here?
23:38:09 <quintopia> probs. but it's at least twice that from here, so i'm doing most of the work here. besides, i'll be there anyway :P
23:38:18 <boily> which is a good argument :D
23:38:47 <tswett> Man, this is turning out to be a bit of a tricky problem.
23:38:57 <tswett> Here's a different problem...
23:40:15 <quintopia> istm that "group presentation" doesn't have its usual meaning here...
23:41:10 <tswett> Prove that the additive group of the integers (characterized as the initial ring) is freely generated by 1.
23:41:12 <int-e> quintopia: aa means aa = e, or a = a^-1.
23:41:43 <int-e> as an abelian group?
23:42:04 <int-e> it's cyclic anyway
23:42:17 <tswett> That the additive abelian group of the integers is the abelian group freely generated by 1.
23:42:45 <quintopia> int-e: very different from a group of people working together to research, organize, and present, in speech form, some information to a larger group
23:43:12 <int-e> quintopia: AH, that didn't occur to me at all, thanks
23:43:34 <int-e> quintopia: so what does "m" in "istm" stand for?
23:43:59 <int-e> oh. "it", not "I".
23:44:23 <int-e> That's where I went wrong. (mislead by "istr")
23:44:52 <quintopia> that's what 4la's are for: mizzling
23:47:22 <int-e> "if I may believe"
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02:10:49 <oerjan> @tell jafet <Jafet> I wonder how many terminals display that correctly. <-- it made the tunes logs show as one line in my browser from that point onwards
02:12:01 <oerjan> at least vim handled it fine.
02:14:14 <trn> http://i.imgur.com/IXrvECO.jpg
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02:52:09 <moonythedwarf> X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE! $H+H*
02:52:42 <pikhq> Well that's just not very nice.
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04:08:27 <Jafet> I wonder if the eicar test files are in the blockchain somewhere.
04:08:49 <Jafet> well, there's probably already actual malware in the blockchain somewhere
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05:33:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49073&oldid=19995 * Weux082690 * (+3110) /* Computational class */
05:34:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49074&oldid=49073 * Weux082690 * (+1) /* Computational class */ copyedit
05:41:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49075&oldid=49074 * Weux082690 * (-46) /* Computational class */ Removing repitition
06:02:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 51m 34s ago: <Jafet> I wonder how many terminals display that correctly. <-- it made the tunes logs show as one line in my browser from that point onwards
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07:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> It's weird when you stumble across an interesting author that you want to readf
07:02:29 <hppavilion[1]> One you've never heard of and that you haven't read anything by
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07:03:11 <hppavilion[1]> Then realize that they were big and important and wrote a book that has influenced the world indirectly (perhaps by inspiring a tribute work or a movie)
07:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> Then the following (unrelated) book, The Terminal Man
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07:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_science_fiction_writers includes 9MOTHER9HORSE9EYES9
07:15:51 <izabera> turns out the entry barrier to have your own wikipedia page isn't that high
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07:43:07 <Jafet> the american reddit, I presume.
07:43:34 <izabera> how many reddits are there?
07:47:58 <Jafet> you can't simultaneously apply the one reddit and ignore the other three reddits.
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07:50:54 <Jafet> hmm, the time cube advocacy site no longer exists.
07:51:38 <myname> i like r/fifthworldproblems
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08:10:29 <oerjan> Jafet: i think i saw some link that may have been to a mirror the other day.
08:11:32 <hppavilion[1]> In the 1986 film "The Transformers: The Movie", Unicron was played by Orson Welles
08:12:33 <oerjan> hm, i guess that must have been his last role...
08:13:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...weird. Perhaps he sent in a message from beyond the space-time continuum, as he did for The Juice Media when scolding us for treating 1984 as an instruction manual for the NSA?
08:14:04 <hppavilion[1]> I love finding the wiki for a franchise and seeing that it's a MediaWiki instead of a Wikia subdomain
08:14:42 <oerjan> a film is usually made a bit before it's released, hppavilion[1]
08:16:16 <oerjan> girl genius: larana's dad, best villain?
08:16:23 <hppavilion[1]> Though, the wiki I found seems to be... unofficial
08:16:35 <oerjan> also does that count as nsfw around your parts
08:16:55 <hppavilion[1]> But... well, "The levitation trick gets The Fallen all The Ladies at parties."
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09:09:12 <oerjan> R.I.P. hppavilion[1]'s brain
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09:39:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Refrigerator™ | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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09:59:07 <hppavilion[1]> Just a normal car (but with a hat), but he does RIDE in the Popemobile
09:59:46 <gamemanj> ...must inevitably lead to meta-meta-cars...
10:04:39 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, there's something called "Satanic Reversal" (I guess that 12:20 becomes 2012 or something?)
10:12:05 <izabera> how high are you right now
10:17:16 <gamemanj> Presumably, he's... as high as the pope.
10:22:36 <hppavilion[1]> If anything, I'm the opposite; this is me when I'm /not/ on speed
10:24:23 <gamemanj> By whose definition of "scholar"?
10:24:57 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: By the definition of "knows a lot about something most people don't know a lot about"
10:26:44 <hppavilion[1]> The meaning being that things which are just common knowledge today will become the stuff that only a small group of people have comparable levels of knowledge on in a few hundred years
10:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> Nobody will care about the Trump presidential campaign a few generations down the road if he loses; most of the people who have even heard of him might wonder what his position was on funding the Apollo missions (that may be a slight exaggeration, but only slight)
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11:15:47 <HackEgo> abnf//Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`. The older `::=` syntax will continue to be supported for orthogonal-compatibility purposes.
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12:12:19 <Jafet> “Volume 5 – Syntactic Algorithms (as of 2015, estimated for release in 2025)” — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming
12:12:47 <Jafet> so it looks like this publication is going to be about everything except compilers.
12:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> If english is going to have Spelling Reform, can we also do Grammar Reform?
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12:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Criticism_and_controversy
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12:52:05 <hppavilion[1]> the IOC tries to forbid anybody anywhere from making GIFs of the games during the games
12:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> Someone needs to inform the IOC that this is the internet, and they can kindly fuck the fuck off
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13:10:03 <Jafet> this is well-known: http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2016/06/07/olympic-committee-trademark-protection/id=69739/
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14:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> My GOD this week is going well for anyone who doesn't want trump
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14:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> In Wyoming, each house seat represents 526000 people
14:59:37 <hppavilion[1]> I conclude that Montanna has the lowest absolute voter power of any state, as house seats are directly linked to electoral weight
15:00:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Of course, when you account for swinginess, Nevada is the most powerful)
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15:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> The University of Arkansas has called 100% of US presidential races correctly
15:22:46 <gamemanj> In which case, they are behind a conspiracy. It is clear.
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15:37:13 <izabera> that could predict the result of football matches
15:37:24 <izabera> are they employing the same technique in arkansas?
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19:25:46 <int-e> @tell oerjan thanks for suggesting stackage-update the other day, it's so much faster than its cabal counterpart!
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22:58:01 <Zarutian> I am still trying to understand how a cyclic bittag system is turing complete. Anyone care to enlighten me?
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23:10:25 <fizzie> Zarutian: If you mean bitwise cyclic tag, by virtue of being able to emulate any cyclic tag system with a binary alphabet, which can further emulate any tag system. Or so they claim, anyway. I certainly haven't spent any time thinking about it in detail.
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23:30:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tag system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49076&oldid=12501 * Fizzie * (+233) Convert to <ref>erences + add Minsky 1961.
23:30:35 <fizzie> Just so you know, I went and enabled the 'Cite' extension.
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00:01:29 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Four and a bit.
00:02:24 <fizzie> Well, I don't remember when that was. But elliott said something about going to install it in 2012.
00:03:41 <fizzie> I still wouldn't have done it except that they bundled it into the MediaWiki distribution a while ago, which meant installing it was a one-line edit to LocalSettings.
00:08:20 <fizzie> Maybe around 2020 or so I'll get around to Math.
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00:46:19 <quintopia> Zarutian: fizzie nailed it. BCT can emulate CT can emulate any post canonical system
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00:46:50 <quintopia> anyone watching the opening ceremony
00:47:32 <Zarutian> "Here we open up these new box!" is what I thought of
00:47:37 <quintopia> the biggest athletic event of the year
00:48:42 <fizzie> There's a "Finnish people in London" facebook group, I know they're watching it in some scandinavian bar.
00:48:46 <Zarutian> quintopia: I have an permanent filter that filters out any and all sport news
00:49:09 <quintopia> Zarutian: impressive. i don't even know how you would set up such a thing.
00:49:33 <quintopia> Zarutian: nonetheless, the opening ceremony is not a sporting event, but rather a performance and a parade.
00:49:34 <Zarutian> quintopia: naah, it is more of an mental one.
00:49:39 <quintopia> the performance is usually worth watching
00:52:06 <Zarutian> nope, just found youtube (or other stored video streaming site) video of the curling
00:53:34 <Zarutian> nope, just low to watch the absurdness of it
00:54:06 <quintopia> ...yet you don't tune in for synchronized swimming or dressage? :P
00:54:23 <quintopia> dressage beats cycle sprint for absurdity
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00:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cycle sprint is game theory conspiring to make a cycling race about who can cycle the slowest
00:55:22 <lambdabot> int-e said 5h 29m 35s ago: thanks for suggesting stackage-update the other day, it's so much faster than its cabal counterpart!
00:55:25 <quintopia> okay, back in the 1900s, for a year or so, motorboating was an olympic sport. boats driving in circles.
00:56:08 <fizzie> oerjan: I installed Extension:Cite hth hand etc
00:57:01 <fizzie> The thing that lets you <ref>.
00:57:59 <fizzie> (I'm advertising this to people I think might care about citations.)
00:58:23 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: the game theory aspect could be negated by the invention of uniforms and bikes that channel air into the person behind you, if they would allow that...
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01:15:31 <quintopia> brazil has a lot more singable and danceable anthem than average, i should think
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02:12:54 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Nobody will care about the Trump presidential campaign a few generations down the road if he loses; most of the people who have even heard of him might wonder what his position was on funding the Apollo missions (that may be a slight exaggeration, but only slight)
02:13:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i hereby point you at "Diana: Warrior Princess" hth
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02:14:23 <oerjan> (disclaimer: never played it, only heard the legends. which somehow seems appropriate.)
02:16:06 <oerjan> of course it my be so old by now that hppavilion[1] gets a meta-experience from it.
02:16:47 <oerjan> wtf hppavilion[1] has been idle for an hour
02:17:15 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] if you ping out before seeing what i said, see the logs.
02:17:43 <lambdabot> oerjan said 28s ago: if you ping out before seeing what i said, see the logs.
02:18:17 <oerjan> are you one of those silly people who only get pinged when their nick is at the start of a line
02:18:24 <oerjan> if so, welcome to the club
02:18:48 <oerjan> no wait, i _did_ use it at the start of a line
02:20:33 <oerjan> you know, after this year they really need a new version.
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03:03:15 <izabera> http://sorting.at/ look how cool this is
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03:51:10 <oerjan> . o O ( new rule: hppavilion[1] doesn't get to bring up mainstream news in the channel )
03:51:26 <oerjan> it's in . o O ( ) because i'm only tempted
03:51:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you do a lot of it, and it's all depressing :P
03:54:26 <zzo38> GPL3 says "If the Program specifies that a proxy can decide which future versions of the GNU General Public License can be used, that proxy's public statement of acceptance of a version permanently authorizes you to choose that version for the Program." I think this might be useful for protecting business interests, although the proxy should always authorize it if they do not have a good reason not to, and if the company goes defunct, they should
04:04:19 <pikhq> The proxy feature in the GPLv3 is one of its best features.
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04:08:33 <zzo38> I doubt it is of much use unless you are running a business, but for a business it looks like a good feature.
04:12:26 <zzo38> You can just omit "or later version" and omit the proxy too, but then it can be problem if there are new versions of GPL that can be good and then they cannot be used. If you do add "or later version" then the business does not have full control over the licensing of the software they are selling, and that can be a different problem. With the proxy, you can avoid both problems.
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04:15:24 <oerjan> . o O ( can you be your own proxy )
04:16:21 <zzo38> I would expect so; I do not see anything that says that you can't.
04:19:15 <pikhq> Though if you are a copyright holder, who needs a proxy?
04:19:20 <pikhq> You can dictate terms.
04:21:17 <zzo38> In case there are multiple copyright holders I suppose, or in case the copyright holder is dead.
04:22:44 <alercah> pikhq: I assume the intent is to declare yourself as the proxy for your program so that you can control icensing on derivatives?
04:23:12 <pikhq> alercah: Except you can only control licensing on derivatives made with the same terms, proxy and all.
04:23:32 <pikhq> Though, it's likely that would be the case for a decent number of projects.
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08:18:18 <oerjan> i think i'll wait until it's more urgent.
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09:34:32 <hppavilion[1]> I want https://vine.co/v/edXbvrwdpgE to be made into a techno remix
09:55:30 <izabera> https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/761188320042823680/pu/vid/1280x720/0lw0LhCnZzpop7sO.mp4 sfw
10:07:07 <izabera> it's the latest ending in the anime
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10:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> There's a rumor that Matt Smith will be back on Doctor Who
10:28:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Personally, the best thing EVER would be The Doctor regenerating... into (the appearance of) Amy Pond... but that doesn't seem likely)
10:28:35 <gamemanj> (the best thing ever would be the Doctor regenerating into the Master)
10:28:36 <hppavilion[1]> (They did fairly recently establish that Time Lords can flip genders on the regeneration, so I'm expecting The Doctor to be a woman fairly soon)
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11:17:30 <myname> anybody can tell me what to look for if i want to find stuff about the _real_ mahjong and not these pair finding solitaire games?
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13:22:13 <lambdabot> CYUL 061200Z 28014KT 15SM FEW010 BKN070 23/19 A2965 RMK CF1ACC6 CF TR SLP041 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
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15:33:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AshuraTheHedgehog * New user account
15:51:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AshuraTheHedgehog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49077 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (+565) Created page with "'''''<big>Under construction.</big>''''' These are '''all''' of my Brainfuck derivatives: == BF-M == Brainfuck with a memory cell. +, -, >, <, ., ,. [, and ] are unchanged...."
15:56:03 <myname> i wouldn't be proud of that
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16:37:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49078&oldid=33564 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (+234) Added my attempt.
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18:25:18 <zzo38> If you are betting at roulette in American casino and have unlimited time, and you have $1000 but you need $2000 then what strategy is best? The answer in this case is to bet everything on black (or on red, or odd, or even). But how will the strategy differ if you need only $1500 instead, or if you need $3456 instead? What changes if there is a maximum bet imposed, or if you are betting at crap instead of roulette?
18:26:50 <int-e> if I have all the time I need why don't I just put it into a bank account :P
18:28:39 <int-e> And can we simplify this to a fair coin throw?
18:29:46 <int-e> though, perhaps not... because that would make it a zero sum game, and as long as you never overshoot your target, you'll have a 50% chance of reaching $2k and a 50% chance of going broke, regardless of your strategy.
18:30:12 <int-e> (just a simple expected value computation)
18:30:38 <int-e> "zero sum" is the wrong term, I mean expected earnings are zero.
18:32:57 <int-e> $1500 is still boring; you can just bet $500 (on one of the 18/37 chances) all the time.
18:36:35 <int-e> But for $2500, is it better to bet $500, then $1000, or vice versa?
18:37:17 <zzo38> The chance of winning is less than 50% regardless of what strategy is used. The game is memoryless, and you cannot use bank interest, other games, asking other people for help, comp bonuses, cheating, angling, etc.
18:37:35 <zzo38> And you have those good points too. I don't know what is best for $2500.
18:43:15 <zzo38> I believe you about $1500 if the game is roulette at least; but at craps I don't know because the betting is much more complicated.
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18:45:24 <zzo38> (I'm not sure that these complications change much, although the odds and so on seem to be more confusing, and changing bets is sometimes possible, and even bets are also sometimes possible as auxiliary bets.)
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18:47:36 <int-e> apparently the greedy approach wins out
18:54:10 <int-e> (I get a 38.2% chance for greedy, and a 37.6% chance for the non-greedy strategy, of reaching $2500)
18:55:00 <int-e> assuming 18/37 odds of winning and 19/37 odds of losing
18:56:20 <zzo38> More strange restrictions than a maximum bet would be to require the bet to be a prime number of dollars. (This restrictions is not actually used at any casino as far as I know, though.)
18:57:11 <zzo38> Or, to disallow any bet to be the same amount as any previous bet (also something that does not exist as far as I know). Or both restrictions together.
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19:21:49 <zzo38> I have no tarot cards. I know a few (but not much) about it.
19:22:43 <HackEgo> Augure: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:22:47 <zzo38> What I know is that a standard deck has 78 cards, being fourteen in each minor suit (rods, swords, cups, and coins; these are the Latin suits, some are French suited), and twenty-one trumps, and one Fool or Excuse (also sometimes considered a trump).
19:23:20 <zzo38> Also in some decks the coins have pentagrams on them; this is irrelevant, they are still the same suit of coins.
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19:25:55 <zzo38> HackEgo is 182 seconds idle it says
19:27:24 <zzo38> int-e: Just type the correct output yourself if you know what it is
19:27:46 <Augure> Oh sorry guys ah ah ;)
19:28:47 <zzo38> Augure: We are unlikely to answer your questions, but you can ask if you wish I suppose; it would probably better to asking someone else I think, though.
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19:30:36 <int-e> zzo38: it did reply
19:30:55 <zzo38> Why is it sometimes slow though?
19:31:09 <zzo38> Sometimes it is fast, and sometimes very slow.
19:31:21 <zzo38> And it seems sometimes you get error messages that should not occur.
19:32:57 <int-e> I think it's slow because it's sharing a host with too many other VMs... possibly doing stupid stuff like cryptocurrency mining, password cracking and the like
19:39:22 <int-e> (As far as I recall, HackEgo is running on one of those $35 for a life time VMs at Cloud at Cost... and overloading the hosts is pretty much the only way that this can be a sustainable business.)
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19:40:42 <int-e> Oh and of course there will be no people handling issues... abuse, VMs running amok (you're not supposed to have long-running CPU intensive jobs) etc.
19:42:30 <zzo38> Maybe you should get your own computer that you can put it in?
19:45:03 <fizzie> int-e: It's one of those, yes. Although it's some higher-tier offering than the $35 one.
19:46:18 <int-e> zzo38: I'm already paying for lambdabot's VM (and doing it gladly, but I don't want to do that for two bots).
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19:53:54 <fizzie> The same system is running the wiki as well.
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21:22:19 <izabera> can we talk for a moment about the man who attacked a police station with a machete in belgium?
21:22:25 <izabera> how fucking stupid is that
21:22:56 <izabera> how hard is it to get a gun in belgium?
21:23:19 <FireFly> Maybe it's more about making a statement
21:23:43 <FireFly> the Gävle goat got torched one year by someone firing a fire arrow into it while being dressed up.. there's probably easier ways to torch it
21:23:55 <FireFly> but it's kind of more notable that way
21:24:19 <izabera> but he was shot dead before even managing to kill one police officer
21:24:34 <izabera> i can't think of anything more inefficient than that
21:25:04 <izabera> ok maybe if you blow yourself up /in a desert/...
21:26:26 <Zarutian> they dont have anti-riot-foam? (Basically uhu glue or equiv forced through an areosolizer)
21:26:49 <izabera> where can i get a ton of that?
21:27:06 <zzo38> Maybe they want to die without too much police investigations?
21:32:31 <int-e> izabera: could be a suicide by proxy thing, rather than poltical
21:33:10 <Zarutian> izabera: hardware stores and general stores? Just take the areosolizer (must be of metal) of an spraycan, make a pressure container that has that plus ports for four of those sodastream/whipped-cream CO2 charges. Take the glue and put it in the pressure container, use four CO2 charges.
21:34:22 <izabera> you should start selling it
21:35:51 <izabera> i don't even know what to think of that suicide by proxy thing
21:35:58 <izabera> reading about it for the first time now
21:38:39 <int-e> Hmm, I've read the term somewhere, I didn't know it was born out of a religious loophole.
21:45:37 <HackEgo> danddreclist 81: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
21:51:15 <zzo38> I hope that I can somehow to convince them that the tin cups are magic and to trick them to go there just before they fall down and make noise. If they try to dispel it after they fall and make the noise, they will fail to dispel it, because the cups are not magic!
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21:57:55 <zzo38> While in the prison cell, with no items or magic (except for a few short lengths of rope), I would have to figure out how to confuse them and lead them astray.
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23:57:10 <quintopia> ick my left cursor key has gone all mushy
23:58:39 <oerjan> <myname> anybody can tell me what to look for if i want to find stuff about the _real_ mahjong and not these pair finding solitaire games? <-- i assume boily knows, and possibly zzo38.
00:00:07 <zzo38> It also depend what kind of mahjong game there is many variants, such as Japanese game, or Chinese game. The Japanese game is popular in many parts of the world including in Japan.
00:00:59 <quintopia> it would be sad if the japanese didn't like the japanese one
00:01:20 <oerjan> improvements i'd like for freenode: to stop resetting the time on bans, and to _not_ reset idle time over pingout quit/joins...
00:01:22 <quintopia> oerjan: isn't "impact" the worst word ever
00:01:41 <oerjan> quintopia: all dinosaurs agree with you
00:01:52 <quintopia> oerjan: not that usage. that one is fine.
00:02:12 <oerjan> are you saying they weren't impacted by it
00:02:14 <quintopia> the other one, as a synonym for "affect" or "effect"
00:02:24 <myname> who would've guessed the japanese version is popular in japan
00:02:35 <quintopia> i'm saying they were mostly not impacted, yes
00:02:53 <quintopia> which had an effect on the animals living at the time
00:03:06 <oerjan> well it could be worse. they could have been effected by it.
00:03:28 <quintopia> the ones who are alive now--basically were
00:03:42 * oerjan once corrected someone on wikipedia who overcorrected affect/effect
00:03:43 <quintopia> educational outcomes should not be
00:04:16 <oerjan> quintopia: i think you missed the part where i misused "effected" hth
00:04:42 <oerjan> or maybe it works in a different sense, barely.
00:05:27 <quintopia> oerjan: i assume you meant in the sense of "to cause to come into being" hth
00:06:14 <quintopia> anyway, you can misuse afect/effect all you want, just don't replace them with "impact" hthem
00:08:14 <oerjan> a small gunk civilization between the f and g keys
00:09:07 <oerjan> soon they will spread all under the keyboard, but carefully learn to avoid the area right under the keys.
00:10:49 * oerjan realizes his brain incorrectly corrected spasming to spamming
00:11:08 <oerjan> which is a bit opposite in this case.
00:12:30 <Zarutian> hmm.. talking about spam, what do you people do with speculative invocies?
00:13:28 <oerjan> fortunately, i don't get any tdh
00:14:07 <quintopia> and insist that i receive the services i'm paying for
00:14:08 <oerjan> (i guess because i don't buy on the internet)
00:14:29 <Zarutian> I usually mail back an rubber cheque, in both senses of the word
00:14:29 <quintopia> then threaten lawsuits when the service is not provided
00:15:06 <Zarutian> the guy selling me the rubber says its rather elastic payment method
00:15:46 <quintopia> i don't even know what an elastic payment method is when taken seriously
00:15:57 * oerjan gives Zarutian a medium low swat -----###
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00:31:20 <oerjan> <FireFly> the Gävle goat got torched one year [...] <-- . o O ( have they considered using a different material )
00:32:02 <FireFly> They've been trying to fireproof it with some spray
00:32:11 <FireFly> I think with moderate success?
00:32:20 <FireFly> but I think it burned down in the end anyway
00:32:49 <FireFly> "2013 As in 2006 and 2007, the straw used to build the goat has been soaked in anti-flammable liquid to prevent it from burning in the event of an arson attack.[48] The inauguration ceremony took place on 1 December. On 21 December the goat was burned down.[49]"
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00:48:27 <oerjan> FireFly: wiktionary's audio play failed on me again. is "ström" pronounced with a short or a long ö?
00:48:53 <FireFly> long m I suppose, but I'm not good at telling consonantal length
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00:49:41 <oerjan> well afaik swedish is like norwegian there, either long vowel or long consonant in stressed syllables.
00:50:08 <Zarutian> oerjan: svo þú ert að læra sænsku?
00:51:39 <oerjan> Zarutian: nah i already understand swedish well enough, i just wondered how the name "Ström" in the article about the Gävle goat was pronounced.
00:52:07 <oerjan> FireFly: um, that's not different, is it :P
00:52:39 <FireFly> Like most (all?) names named after geographical features like that.. at least all I can think of
00:56:26 <oerjan> i think the wiktionary standard is sort of to not include consonant length for the (phonemic) ipa in such cases, though.
00:57:35 <oerjan> Zarutian: i have been trying to get a more accurate pronunciation because i've been learning some swedish songs, though.
00:58:19 <oerjan> but most sounds are not that different from norwegian.
00:58:36 <oerjan> (sj and a being the most obvious exceptions)
01:00:05 <oerjan> wiktionary's swedish pronunciation guide looks much better than the norwegian.
01:00:24 <FireFly> Hmm, what article is that?
01:00:34 <oerjan> (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swedish_pronunciation)
01:00:56 <oerjan> although the audio play failed for me there, too.
01:01:09 <oerjan> (i think IE doesn't like very short audio clips, or something.)
01:02:17 <oerjan> as in, it plays, but cuts off nearly all of it. and then goes into some swirling animation mode.
01:03:43 <oerjan> (_wikipedia's_ norwegian pronunciation guide is good, though... but they're inconsistent, and i almost got into an edit war with someone who changed to the wiktionary style)
01:04:09 <oerjan> (only didn't because i didn't bother to revert back)
01:04:29 <FireFly> Hmm, does norwegian have retroflex consonants? for rs, rt, etc
01:05:03 <oerjan> ok all trivial except for /œ/ as the short ö
01:05:30 <oerjan> FireFly: yep, most dialects (the exception being south western ones with guttural rs)
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01:11:37 <oerjan> FireFly: another question. is it common to vary "är" between /æ:r/ and /e:/ dependent on whether a vowel or consonant is following? i noticed a song doing this, but wiktionary only describes those as "clear" vs. "everyday" pronunciation.
01:12:02 <oerjan> (Wennersten's Det Vakraste fwiw)
01:12:56 <FireFly> I don't think so, no. I'd use /e:/ in typical everyday speech even before a word starting with a vowel sound
01:13:14 <FireFly> "dé é inte [...]" "it isn't [...]"
01:13:26 <oerjan> well i meant not necessarily in everyday speech, but in some intermediate style
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01:18:12 <oerjan> now this audio _did_ play right, probably because it was slightly longer, but only on first try :P
01:18:32 <oerjan> (the pitch "anden vs. anden" example)
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01:53:46 <oerjan> our spam filter rules are holding pretty well :)
01:54:31 <oerjan> heaps of attempts a day ago
01:55:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Instead of limiting the wiki to defence, I think that it should be equipped for retaliation and the occasional preemptitive strike
01:56:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Perhaps we should r&d the ability for the wiki to invade the dreams of our adversaries and give them constant nightmares- and the occasional sleep paralysis- until they are afraid to sleep?)
01:56:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Prefrigerator™ | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
01:58:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't think this world can survive if people keep a general habit of escalating conflicts unnecessarily hth
01:58:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It can if we crush our adversaries completely, to the point that they can never retaliate
02:00:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the problem is that even after you win, your own side will re-split into a new conflict, precisely because you've become addicted to conflict.
02:00:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Perhaps we can use religion to keep everyone in line?
02:01:00 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that has a mixed success rate i think :P
02:05:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: We'll include a subset that is compatible with Atheism to keep them(/us) on board- drop the dogma, keep a lightweight set of traditions and rituals and require that a solid 80% of the moral laws be maintained
02:07:52 <zzo38> Don't force religion on everyone, either.
02:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> religion for some, miniature american flags for others
02:13:33 <zzo38> Also not everyone live in United States anyways.
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02:13:46 <zzo38> And, not everyone does or should be same religious.
02:14:04 <zzo38> There are many different kinds, and we can learn from everything a bit.
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02:34:02 <B1ood6od> Long time no see, how's the chat?
02:36:18 <B1ood6od> Anything interesting in the last few months?
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02:45:25 <zzo38> Look in the logs and wiki and see.
02:45:38 <zzo38> I am not on during 100% of all the time and do not remember 100% of the things
02:50:58 <izabera> what should a library do in case of memory exhaustion?
02:51:17 <izabera> what's the sane behaviour?
02:52:00 <izabera> 1. do nothing, set errno to ENOMEM, return
02:52:29 <izabera> 3. free all the data structures it previously allocated
02:52:49 <zzo38> Probably can depend on what the function is, I suppose?
02:52:53 <izabera> and by previously i mean other function calls, unrelated to the one that failed due to memory exhaustion
02:54:48 <izabera> e.g. this generates a random bignum number https://github.com/maandree/libzahl/blob/a02ba0b0602fb1d6caa5ce332a0c3483c3e4c4aa/src/zrand.c
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02:55:12 <izabera> and if it fails it frees all the structures
02:55:25 <izabera> even the ones used by other bignums
02:55:56 <izabera> i just fail to see the point
02:56:22 <zzo38> I also fail to see the point
02:57:09 <izabera> so what would be the sane thing to do?
03:00:57 <zzo38> It should be changed so that the return type is not void, and therefore it can tell you if it is OK or not.
03:06:42 <hppavilion[1]> Has anybody ever written a constitution in the style of a man page?
03:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course, to REALLY keep everyone in line, we'll need to also have people know that they prefer it this way
03:08:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: of course, i don't think keeping everyone in line is a sane thing to aim for.
03:08:33 <hppavilion[1]> So we'll discretely fund a rebellion- with our own people in charge- that will have the job of rebelling, but having all rebels live in shitty conditions so that only the most dedicated-to-the-cause people join and being sure to rebel badly
03:10:11 <oerjan> that sounds a little bit like 1984 hth
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03:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If we want to go full-on bureaucratic hell, we can make the funding of the rebellion open and legit
03:14:08 <hppavilion[1]> Quick question: Does the US congress qualify as a parliament?
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03:22:13 <oerjan> of course that doesn't make the us have parliamentarism
03:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The Wikipedia page for Parliaments doesn't mention it at all, and the page for Congress mentions it twice- the first time is "parliamentary procedure" which is probably just saying that it's in the style done by parliaments, the second time is "parliamentary privilege" which is just the common term for a thing /usually/ applied to Parliament members but that extends to non-Parliament countries in general (in theory, it could
03:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> There does appear to be a distinction between "Parliamentary governments" and "Presidential governments", and I assume the US falls under the latter, but it's not inconceivable that a government with a parliament isn't a parliamentary government (or even that a country can be somewhere in between)
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03:32:12 <oerjan> norway used to be in between between 1814 and 188something
03:32:44 <oerjan> then the parliament got the bright idea to use our equivalent of an impeachment procedure to enforce parliamentarism.
03:33:31 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, the Australian Government once shut down
03:33:41 <oerjan> "Although some restrict the use of the word parliament to parliamentary systems, it is also commonly used to describe the legislature in presidential systems (i.e. the French parliament), even where it is not in the official name."
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03:35:42 <oerjan> norway's king cannot actually dissolve parliament, i guess it's one of the many features we borrowed from the us constitution.
03:38:15 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( Surveillance state with an absolute oligarchy (like an absolute monarchy, but with more than one monarch that can contradict the others- with no proper mechanism for resolving contradictions beyond reversal wars and friendly agreement))
03:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> Participation is involuntary while in the channel, and can be involuntary elsewhere if the oligarchs decide as such (though the surveillance state doesn't extend beyond the borders)
03:40:02 <hppavilion[1]> Oligarchs can, of course, single-handedly introduce a new oligarch without the consent of others
03:40:32 <oerjan> of course it extends beyond the borders, we borrow intelligence from google hth
03:41:48 <oerjan> technically there is a possible hierarchy of oligarchs, but i don't think there's any difference between the 3 currently active ones hth
03:42:23 <oerjan> (it depends on chanserv flag settings)
03:42:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The surveillance state can extend beyond the borders upon request by pooling state surveillance, and one of the major surveillors will respond to most queries on the drop of a hat and is basically the world's most powerful surveillance state
03:43:43 <oerjan> secondmost, don't forget the NSA hth
03:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> CIA and FBI are still too powerful, but they aren't the ones collecting and storing EVERYONE's EVERYTHING
03:45:36 <hppavilion[1]> Oligarchs are specifically equipped with the powers to- quite easily- deport citizens, imprison or execute citizens, promote to an oligarch or specifically permit an individual to break a state-mandated Period of Silence, and at will modify the small set of standing laws
03:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> While not relevant in #esoteric, many similar governments permit Oligarchs- and only Oligarchs- to modify the Universal Psychic Message Broadcast
03:47:53 <oerjan> despite rumors, we cannot actually execute citizens, we need to ask freenode staff for that hth
03:48:48 <oerjan> that's what i thought.
03:49:10 <hppavilion[1]> #esoteric's oligarchs can even impose population control
03:50:50 <alercah> especially when someone hacks the government and steals all the democracy
03:50:56 <alercah> or whatever happend to the DAO
03:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_DAO_(organization)
03:54:14 <zzo38> Then, make Zenarchy.
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06:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It gave real sponsorships related to my search though
06:22:52 <hppavilion[1]> (PETITION: Change the USA's motto to "Lorem Ipsum Sit Dolor Amet"
06:23:48 <myname> the hell did you searched for
06:24:44 <hppavilion[1]> Also, the capital of the US should be moved to Blackacre in Franklin
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12:13:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WolfgangTS * New user account
12:15:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49079 * WolfgangTS * (+2641) Pipefuck
12:20:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49080&oldid=49079 * WolfgangTS * (+581)
12:21:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:WolfgangTS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49081 * WolfgangTS * (+148) Created page with "== About me == I'm a developer, who really does nothing. I like JavaScript, and node. I like learning '''lots''' of languages, and making some too."
12:22:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:WolfgangTS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49082 * WolfgangTS * (+13) Created page with "Nothing here!"
12:23:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49083&oldid=49080 * WolfgangTS * (+0) /* Multiplication program */
12:27:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49084&oldid=49083 * WolfgangTS * (-14) /* Comments */
12:33:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49085&oldid=49084 * WolfgangTS * (+32) /* The tape */
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12:37:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49086&oldid=49085 * WolfgangTS * (-16) /* Multiplication program */
12:38:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49087&oldid=49086 * WolfgangTS * (-7) /* Computational Class */
12:39:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49088&oldid=49087 * WolfgangTS * (+11) /* Implementation */
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12:44:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49089&oldid=49088 * WolfgangTS * (+36)
12:46:07 <myname> he likes js and immediateöy creates a bf derivate
12:48:06 <myname> l and ö are right next to each other
12:48:47 <izabera> why would anyone use ~ in pipefuck?
12:50:33 <myname> ~ is like f in befunge
12:50:44 <myname> basically, it is a worse befunge
12:51:11 <izabera> i think their examples shouldn't use 4 at t0 and 3 at t1
12:51:40 <izabera> wait, they can't be reached
12:52:46 <izabera> probably because i don't befunge
12:53:21 <izabera> i still have to learn c++ properly
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12:54:27 <myname> c++ is like the worst language i could probably think of
12:54:29 <ybden> That's a bit of a silly reason
12:54:34 <ybden> And C++ is horrible
12:55:12 <izabera> are you guys implying that befunge > c++?
12:55:18 <ybden> I don't see how the first pipefuck example would work, if 'equal' means the same character
12:55:42 <myname> izabera: pretty close, but yeah
12:55:42 <ybden> since as soon as it finds the first space, it will randomly choose a space to teleport to
12:56:20 <izabera> it finds \ and goes downwards
12:56:38 <ybden> thought the first code block was in pipefuck
12:57:15 <ybden> no, it's in brainfuck
12:57:41 <ybden> unless I'm on an old version of the page
12:58:17 <izabera> when you say "the first code block" you should specify that you mean the one before the 2nd
12:58:38 <ybden> I should really be more precise
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16:38:12 <Jafet> `unicode ALMOST EQUAL TO
16:38:39 <Jafet> `unicode APPROXIMATELY EQUAL TO
16:42:31 <Jafet> `unicode small letter iota
16:42:39 <HackEgo> U+0269 LATIN SMALL LETTER IOTA \ UTF-8: c9 a9 UTF-16BE: 0269 Decimal: ɩ \ ɩ (Ɩ) \ Uppercase: U+0196 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0390 GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH DIALYTIKA AND TONOS \ UTF-8: ce 90 UTF-16BE: 0390 Decimal: ΐ \ ΐ \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Dec
16:42:52 <Jafet> I guess ≅ is a reasonable approximation of ≈.
16:43:51 <HackEgo> U+FE18 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET \ UTF-8: ef b8 98 UTF-16BE: fe18 Decimal: ︘ \ ︘ \ Category: Pe (Punctuation, Close) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Decomposition: <vertical> 3017
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18:04:54 <orin> `unicode NEITHER EXACTLY NOR APPROXIMATELY EQUAL TO
18:06:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unicodde: not found
18:06:59 <orin> `unicode neither
18:07:02 <HackEgo> U+2247 NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO \ UTF-8: e2 89 87 UTF-16BE: 2247 Decimal: ≇ \ ≇ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ Decomposition: 2245 0338 \ \ U+2270 NEITHER LESS-THAN NOR EQUAL TO \ UTF-8: e2 89 b0 UTF-16BE: 2270 Decimal: ≰ \ ≰ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \
18:07:29 <orin> `unicode NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO
18:08:09 <orin> `unicode NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO
18:15:25 <ybden> `unicode ALMOST BUT NOT QUITE ENTIRELY UNLIKE
18:59:06 <quintopia> orin: pretty sure all the "neither" symbols are just some other symbol with a / through it
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20:29:48 <Jafet> combining neither overlay
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20:59:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49090&oldid=49078 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-1) /* AshuraTheHedgehog's attempt */ removed a colon
21:07:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49091&oldid=41646 * 12.161.214.178 * (+127) add filesizes
21:23:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AshuraTheHedgehog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49092&oldid=49077 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (+224) Finished table.
21:25:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AshuraTheHedgehog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49093&oldid=49092 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-7) Changed headers.
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21:42:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49094&oldid=49058 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-1) /* Input */ correction
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00:34:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pipefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49095&oldid=49089 * Darkrifts * (+1) Commens -> Comments. Comments section
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01:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:91.231.140.161]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (anonymous users only, account creation disabled, email disabled): spambot; it can't get past the spam filter but it's rather spamming up the spam filter itself
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01:35:17 <derHummer> A CPU is essentially an abacus, no? You set a number on this row (mem location), another there, you operate on both numbers, you put the result on that row (register), you make a register of of other numbers (other mem locations) . . . both devices, abacus and CPU, are registers (registers of registers, ad infinitum); memory and a stepper processor.
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01:37:51 <derHummer> conceptually, elementary step-by-step processing, linear processing.
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01:44:30 <derHummer> aside from processing speed and RAM capacity, how is a CPU different from an abacus?
01:45:24 <ais523> derHummer: even the simplest CPUs have registers /and/ an ALU; an abacus just has registers
01:45:59 <ais523> and arithmetic/logic is up to the human user rather than implemented in the abacus
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01:49:59 <derHummer> you hire 1,000 abacus operators ... there's your CPU. ok, 900,000 operators ... 200 million (unemployment is high these days). Point is that conceoptually / functionally, we still have the step-by-step processing.
01:51:40 <ais523> now I'm imagining what an abacus with an ALU would look like
01:51:53 <ais523> something like, when you had enough beads at the bottom of one column
01:52:02 <ais523> they'd rise up to the top and drop one bead from the next
01:52:15 <ais523> that'd be a half-adder, one of the simplest arithmetic components
01:52:54 <derHummer> but any complexity could be implemented in a wire/bead abacus ... given enough care
01:53:14 <ais523> you'd need a power source
01:53:16 <ais523> but I think it's doable
01:53:47 <ais523> I think you just end up inventing the Analytical Engine if you go too far along these lines, though, don't you?
01:56:39 <derHummer> something like that; essentially the key is writing down the algorithm; then you give one page of the book to each abacus operator. But that's just talking the mechanisms of the thing. But the concept, the functional idea, is the thing. What else is different about a CPU---leave aside the electronics.
01:57:17 <ais523> a modern CPU, or a conceptual one?
01:57:36 <ais523> I'd say an abacus is an excellent analogue for a set of registers
01:57:43 <ais523> so the differences are all the things that aren't just registers
01:57:52 <ais523> instruction scheduling, caches, and the like
01:57:53 <derHummer> well, the concept informing a modern CPU. the von Neumann architecture
01:58:18 <ais523> does a CPU even have to know which memory architecture it's using?
01:58:43 <ais523> I mean, if it's using the same signals to communicate with code and with data, then it has to be von Neumann
01:58:48 <derHummer> for its own correct funtioning, yes, probabley
01:59:12 <ais523> but in general, an old/traditional CPU doesn't need to care about the details of how memory works
01:59:32 <ais523> look at the 6502 and old NES games; many of them had hardware which automatically swapped between multiple RAMs and ROMs
02:00:02 <ais523> exploiting the fact that the CPU didn't care that it was connected to memory, just that it'd get particular responses if it sent particular requests
02:00:59 <derHummer> yes, the hardware don't matter; not as far as correctness of computation schema
02:01:27 <ais523> I mean, to a certain extent, a system needn't /have/ a memory architecture, really
02:01:52 <ais523> I'm imagining a device that streams values to a CPU's memory read port
02:01:53 <derHummer> sliding beads on a wire is a "memory", no?
02:02:16 <ais523> yes, it's what's known as distributed memory, or as a register
02:02:22 <ais523> because it isn't addressable
02:03:12 <derHummer> streaming values sounds like a punched tape, or ibm punched cards
02:03:45 <derHummer> but punched cards were the memory storage of the day ... the "floppy disks", lol
02:18:33 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Parser_Framework#Example compiling this example takes several seconds...
02:18:36 <izabera> time to learn yacc i guess
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03:59:45 <derHummer> The more complex the computation, the more powerful the computation. (solves more complex unknowns.) Sonds like a good axiom to come up with leading edge apps?
04:10:15 <Jafet> I only solve for real unknowns.
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05:15:13 <orin> I'm watching the beach volleyball
05:15:43 <orin> is there an actual difference in the rules between beach and regular volleyball?
05:17:18 <alercah> if only there was some sort of encyclopedia that anyone could put this information on
05:17:25 <alercah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_volleyball#Rule_differences_between_beach_and_indoor
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06:26:39 <oerjan> the logs are informing me that shit haååens.
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06:53:36 <izabera> please recommend me a great pdf reader
06:54:09 <izabera> i usually use zathura which supports vi keys to navigate
06:54:36 <izabera> but it's being insanely slow with a pdf with almost 4k pages
06:55:14 <izabera> despite being based on mupdf, and mupdf renders that file instantly
06:56:52 <izabera> why did i use zathura at all?
06:59:47 <izabera> ooh mupdf does very fancy transitions between pages when it's in presentation mode
07:00:19 <izabera> ok i'll never use this, it just slows down things
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07:29:45 <oerjan> <ais523> I think you just end up inventing the Analytical Engine if you go too far along these lines, though, don't you? <-- . o O ( every sufficiently overengineered calculation device is indistinguishable from a computer )
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07:32:24 <oerjan> my jokes seem to be repelling their targets today.
07:36:46 <izabera> einstein developed a theory about space
07:47:40 <zzo38> Apostasy is not apostasy.
07:47:47 <oerjan> it was relatively fancy.
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11:55:09 <oerjan> boily: what was it like when the time travellers had to flee the Morlocks, but couldn't agree on past vs. future?
11:56:46 <oerjan> it was a tense situation hth
11:57:05 * boily *THWACKS* oerjan. 0.95 shachafs.
11:57:17 <oerjan> darn i was hoping for more.
12:00:12 * int-e idly wonders where oerjan's standard timezone is currently located
12:00:33 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Mon Aug 8 13:00:30 2016
12:00:44 <int-e> (personally I'm somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic)
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12:00:51 <int-e> oerjan: that doesn't answer my question.
12:01:07 <oerjan> surprisingly enough, i got up at 7 AM today
12:01:30 <oerjan> it's one of those rare days of apparent synchronization.
12:01:35 <int-e> oh, synchornized for once
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12:08:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49096&oldid=8485 * Keymaker * (+958) Need help with a Black interpreter.
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13:43:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49097&oldid=41864 * Mihip * (-1243)
13:46:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wct]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49098&oldid=41871 * Mihip * (+138)
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13:50:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49099&oldid=49097 * Mihip * (+725) Added example
13:50:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49100&oldid=49099 * Mihip * (-8)
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17:34:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49101&oldid=47311 * Weux082690 * (+245) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ Emacs = Communism for Programmers
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19:33:34 <int-e> hundreds of trillions of human skin cells, just today
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20:19:56 <int-e> Sigh, the GG story is branching out like a hydra. At this rate I will not live to see it finish.
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20:21:53 <int-e> I would but all they gave me is the "forward button", which is a very blunt tool.
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22:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> I hate it how YouTube (though it may be the fault of the YouTubers, but I doubt it) has it so, if a video is uploaded in 720p60 or 1080p60, you can't watch it at normal 30fps in HD
22:29:44 <nortti> is there a reason to use 30fps aside from smaller file?
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23:52:28 <pikhq> nortti: Local hardware might be incapable of rendering at 30fps, but could at 60fps.
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00:00:09 <hppavilion[1]> Drama going on in some of my online friends' lives
00:04:36 <izabera> does someone know something specific that changed from posix 2008 to 2013?
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00:07:09 <pikhq> Not off the top of my head, but any such changes should be minimal: 2013 merely had some corrigenda applied to 2008's text.
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00:28:19 <fizzie> izabera: "This 2013 Edition includes IEEE Std 1003.1-2008/Cor 1-2013 incorporated into IEEE Std 1003.1-2008 (the base document). The 2013 edition incorporates Technical Corrigendum 1 addressing problems discovered since the approval of the 2008 edition."
00:28:33 <fizzie> izabera: So you can just peruse the TC1: https://webstore.iec.ch/corrigenda/iso/isoiecieee9945-cor1%7Bed1.0%7Den.pdf
00:29:28 <fizzie> (321 pages might not quite count as "minimal" in an absolute sense, but maybe if measured as a fraction of the full thing.)
00:34:43 <fizzie> Technically, I guess that's the ISO/IEC bizarro-universe variant of it -- that is, it's "ISO/IEC/IEEE 9945:2009 Technical Corridgendum 1" which you would apply as a patch to the "ISO/IEC/IEEE 9945:2009" base document, as opposed to being "IEEE Std 1003.1-2008/Cor 1-2013" which would apply to "IEEE Std 1003.1-2008".
00:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> Why is everybody so upset about Wrath of Khan right now?
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00:54:07 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> int-e: GG? <-- girl genius hth
00:54:24 <oerjan> a very award-winning webcomic.
00:55:01 <oerjan> no, around here that would be a TG game hth
00:55:43 <pikhq> fizzie: The text of the two documents are identical.
00:56:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, Adventure, Romance, MAD SCIENCE! (TM) hth
00:57:25 <oerjan> heh they have their own awards page
00:58:05 <oerjan> at least a couple of those hugos are not for GG but for comics back in the '70s...
00:58:16 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
00:59:10 <oerjan> either phil foglio started _really_ young, or he's older than i thought.
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01:00:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It could be both. -e nerd points for use of exclusive disjunction for two non-contradictory possibilities
01:01:23 <oerjan> but kaja is the same age as i. figures.
01:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> Interestingly, Hufflepuff and Horned Serpent are actually rather compatible
01:02:48 <hppavilion[1]> (in fact, I think that they're more compatible than any other Hufflepuff/H or H/Horned Serpent combination)
01:03:33 <oerjan> it wasn't actually both, though. he was at least over 20 when he got those awards.
01:03:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That doesn't mean he got the awards soon after he started
01:04:54 <hppavilion[1]> But looking into it, I think Hufflepuff is still more compatible- hard work/dedication/honesty is MUCH more scholarly than wit/creativity/wisdom
01:06:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well it cannot be, since he's _also_ got hugos less than a decade ago.
01:07:53 <hppavilion[1]> "When a student starts their education at Ilvermorny, they step onto a Gordian Knot on the floor in the centre of the entrance hall with large wooden statues of the mascots for the four houses facing them. The carved statues react if they want the student in their house."
01:08:06 <hppavilion[1]> "However, sometimes more than one carving will try to select the same student and so the student is then able to choose the house they prefer. This happens very rarely. Sometimes - as rare as once a decade or even a generation as in the case of one student - a student will be selected by every house."
01:09:07 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Why is everybody so upset about Wrath of Khan right now? <-- i dunno but maybe it has something with the new star trek movie(?) i keep seeing ads for?
01:09:40 <oerjan> it would still cause star trek discussion...
01:09:53 <oerjan> perhaps there's a meme. i don't see much of those.
01:10:07 <hppavilion[1]> (I was kidding; people are actually upset about the gold-star Kahn Family- more accurately, they're upset that Trump insulted them)
01:10:14 <oerjan> after i stopped following reddit's default front page
01:10:41 <oerjan> i don't see much of trump either, fortunately :P
01:11:05 <oerjan> i seem to have nearly stopped reading ordinary news.
01:11:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that would be Dune not Star Trek, i think. (unless ST has one too...)
01:14:16 <hppavilion[1]> I've just done some checking, and the universe is still safe
01:14:45 <hppavilion[1]> No company owns the rights to make both Star Wars and Star Trek movies- and, thus, no right to make a crossover
01:16:56 <oerjan> given that Star Wars canonically happens "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" that would take some doing to not break all continuity.
01:17:14 <oerjan> what about Babylon 5 hth
01:17:34 <hppavilion[1]> And there's probably a Clone Wars episode with it too
01:18:18 <oerjan> and i think that Q(?) guy can transport people to way off galaxies.
01:18:39 * oerjan hasn't actually watched that much star trek.
01:19:24 <hppavilion[1]> There's also a mention of Time Travel in one of the Star Wars books
01:19:44 <oerjan> i understand the canon in star wars is very brittle.
01:19:45 <hppavilion[1]> Though I can't tell if it's mentioned as something real or just as a hypothetical
01:20:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, but this book was made specifically to lead up to The Force Awakens, and is officially 100% canon
01:21:53 <oerjan> i guess, when you have a SF franchise written by a lot of authors it's inevitable that someone will introduce time travel (and various other things) unless it's clearly and explicitly forbidden.
01:23:25 <oerjan> (telepathy being another obvious case)
01:23:40 <hppavilion[1]> And even then, Star Wars's canon (until it was formally disbanded) was set up so ANYONE can make it
01:24:00 <oerjan> and ftl travel, of course, if it wasn't there from the start.
01:27:12 <hppavilion[1]> Nowhere in official SW canon has Time Travel ever been explicitly used; it's only ever been non-sarcastically mentioned once
01:27:42 <oerjan> and even if you tried to enforce hard scifi, the problem is that most scifi writers aren't good enough at science to know what is impossible.
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01:28:29 * oerjan realizes he's slipping into very [citation needed] claims there
01:29:18 <oerjan> hm does SW have force precognition?
01:29:48 <oerjan> because backwards causality would be sort of the firsst step to time travel :P
01:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> Once you can send any form of information to the past, you pretty much have proper time travel
01:30:50 <hppavilion[1]> Because you can just route a teleporter through the transmitter (though it'd be difficult, as I don't think machines can access the force- a jedi would have to sit at a keyboard hitting 1 and 0 as he hears it)
01:31:02 <oerjan> for droids, even simpler.
01:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> (So it would take decades to get something to the past, and it probably wouldn't be accurate)
01:31:14 <oerjan> you can just transfer their mind.
01:31:37 <hppavilion[1]> (And if you can time travel but it takes a long time to do it, you risk broken-offset time travel)
01:32:18 <oerjan> maybe you could build a biological computer with force powers.
01:32:51 <oerjan> although by the laws of plot, it'd inevitably turn into a supervillain.
01:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> It'd allow time travel, but it'd give the traveler a goatee
01:34:19 <oerjan> hm and the good version would turn up in an evil past
01:34:46 <oerjan> and then they'd have to work hard to send each back to the right mirror universe.
01:34:56 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, force prophesies aren't absolute and the future is always in motion
01:35:37 <hppavilion[1]> Decision-forking Multiverses do throw a wrench in any time travel plot
01:36:06 <hppavilion[1]> Because you're liable to get literally millions of time travelers from every future that discovers and uses it
01:36:23 <hppavilion[1]> Which is likely a lot because of the decisions that /don't/ affect earth at all
01:36:34 <oerjan> not if the branching goes both forward and backwards.
01:36:42 <oerjan> which reminds me of the Ed stories.
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01:39:09 <oerjan> basically, if the branching is symmetric, then you'll statistically end up with approximately one future matched to your own.
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01:39:47 <oerjan> why would there be one
01:40:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well if it's symmetrical, it has to have a line of symmetry
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01:40:15 <oerjan> no, it's also translation symmetric.
01:40:29 <oerjan> so every point an work as the center.
01:40:31 <hppavilion[1]> (What we're saying here is that, when you travel back in time, you go to a unique only-for-your-future history, correct?)
01:41:09 <oerjan> yes, but only statistically.
01:41:34 <oerjan> there might be a couple futures matching the same past, and vice versa.
01:41:50 <oerjan> hm it'd be a little awkward if there were none...
01:42:11 <HackEgo> blockzombie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:42:40 <oerjan> although currently we seem to be discussing scifi time travel
01:42:52 <hppavilion[1]> ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo_with_a_Shotgun
01:43:24 <blockzombie> yes I was hoping to catch some context, maybe thought it was like multithreaded intercal where there may not be goto but there can be comefrom - multiple comefroms indicate thread spawn
01:44:28 <oerjan> blockzombie: hey that's a good analogy
01:44:45 <oerjan> except i think we were having multiple comefroms _and_ gotos here
01:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> blockzombie: It started when I checked to make sure no one owns the film rights to both Star Wars and Star Trek, such that no one can cross them over
01:46:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If there is a centerpoint, it has weird philosophical implications
01:46:34 <blockzombie> aren't all time-travel movie plots doomed?
01:46:39 <hppavilion[1]> Because if all histories converge on one point before diverging from there, it means that Free Will is actually
01:46:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: RELATIVITY, i said. no wait, i didn't, i just thought it.
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01:47:27 <oerjan> oh right. well no, i wasn't imagine any centerpoint of that kind.
01:47:44 <oerjan> there would be multiple timelines crossing every time period.
01:47:53 <oerjan> (and merging/splitting)
01:48:06 <hppavilion[1]> And if it were discovered by humans, it would have serious justice implications if it happened around today
01:48:44 <blockzombie> our models of causality would be ambiguous
01:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> "Because the defendant's crime was committed 14 minutes before the convergence- thus meaning they didn't have free will at the time- the defendant is found "not guilty" on the grounds of Automatism")
01:51:35 <oerjan> i've seen some discussion about free will and determinism over at scott aaronson's blog. he makes a good case that it really doesn't matter for morals/justice.
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01:52:43 <oerjan> i don't think he's considered such a convergence, though.
01:53:20 <blockzombie> is there a subjective history of the time traveller?
01:53:53 <blockzombie> did they live, then go back in time, then experience stuff, then "travel" back to some later time again?
01:54:06 <oerjan> well there's eir memory. i don't know if there's anything else, in a sufficiently weird universe.
01:54:26 <blockzombie> isn't memory only one example of a time effect on matter?
01:54:40 <blockzombie> and isn't time merely a synthesis of such things?
01:54:49 <oerjan> well ok, there might be other traces in the body.
01:55:12 <blockzombie> memory is not a special case, it's only important to the human whose memory it is
01:55:36 <blockzombie> Presumably the time machine would have scuffs on it
01:55:55 <blockzombie> the yoghurt in the time machine's refrigerator would go off
01:56:44 <oerjan> unless of course we're in one of those universes where time changes affect your subjective past as well.
01:57:07 <oerjan> (the yoghurt changes randomly to being spelled with and without h)
01:58:18 <Zarutian> ya guys or gals have read Anathem by Neal Stephenson? There it is discussed that Narratives thread what you(s) experience.
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02:21:41 <blockzombie> all time is frame-of-reference bound anyway
02:21:56 <blockzombie> so time travel is a discontinuity between one frame and another
02:24:14 <oerjan> so is a black hole btw
02:24:29 <oerjan> general relativity is not nice to global frames :)
02:24:47 <blockzombie> if a person is in one frame and the environment is in another, then the person (and their time machine) joins that other frame, there is a sequence that is coincident in both frames. Then, when the time machine is fired up to return or leave, the frames are detached. The trouble is, frames are append-only so the shared history remains and they can have a shared future also.
02:25:12 <oerjan> (and gödel found a famous solution with time travel in it)
02:25:42 <blockzombie> In the time machine's frame, part of its past is in the frame of the environment it visited. In the frame of its past (say the dinosaurs), the time machine will be joined when it gets invented. So the frames have two contiguous regions.
02:26:00 <blockzombie> I think that's enough to get you into trouble.
02:26:30 <blockzombie> Surely the laws of thermodynamics also go out the window?
02:26:53 <blockzombie> And if they are amended, then they should "black hole" like you say oerjan.
02:27:05 <blockzombie> filling all presents with all possible cases in which time machines exist.
02:27:11 <oerjan> yeah thermodynamics may be tricky.
02:27:25 <blockzombie> so every possible time machine must exist at every possible moment.
02:27:36 <oerjan> although you could just say that it's simply statistics + the fact the big bang point has low entropy.
02:28:04 <oerjan> (i think that's the usual explanation)
02:28:17 <blockzombie> maybe I'm saying that statistically, you can't get away from time machines obviously existing. Either they are unavoidable or impossible.
02:30:40 <oerjan> there's one obvious way to avoid complete fillup: if you need some machinery at the time you're traveling to as well, and it has limited capacity.
02:31:04 <oerjan> (which also explains why we haven't seen any time travelers yet)
02:31:46 <oerjan> like if it needs to use energy to actually rebuild whoever is travelling?
02:31:49 <blockzombie> but any material required in target time must be synthesisable in its past
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02:32:08 <blockzombie> since the material emerged from a past that must include now
02:32:34 <blockzombie> hmmmm does this hold if target time material is different to source time material?
02:33:02 <oerjan> with this scheme you are not increasing the amount of material, just transforming it.
02:33:42 <oerjan> of course it all depends on having technology that can transform well enough.
02:37:01 <oerjan> if too many time travelers arrive, you end up with no material left to accomodate them (without taking some of them apart again...)
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02:37:30 <oerjan> of course this could still use a lot of resources.
02:37:43 <oerjan> (sounds like an obvious invasion plot)
02:43:56 <Zarutian> oerjan: you are basically talking about something that is often called time gates, no?
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03:08:04 <hppavilion[1]> It says that if, in the process of committing a felony, you wind up killing someone (even with no intention of doing so), you can be convicted of murder
03:13:13 <oerjan> we already know the american "justice" system is crazy tyvm
03:13:56 <oerjan> i suppose the rule would be ok if you only had _actual_ serious crimes as felonies.
03:16:20 <oerjan> (gah, why am i joining this discussion)
03:25:35 <Zarutian> USA "justice" system seems to be more about revenge than dealing with crime or servere disagreement
03:26:19 <oerjan> over at "the whiteboard": aww, and the date was going so well.
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03:43:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, Tax Evasion, Copyright Infringement, and Cheque Fraud don't seem like they should carry the weight of a murder sentence
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03:44:25 <hppavilion[1]> ("You have been found guilty of attempted conspiracy to solicit the incitement of cheque fraud. The penalty is death.")
03:44:26 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: isnt it just usual that in the case of Tax Evasion that people are fined the amount of taxes owed plus some usury interest?
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03:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: It might be able to carry perjury as well, I think, depending on whether your tax returns are considered "under oath"
03:46:07 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: in the case of Copyright Infringement I thought it was usually enough for people to advertise that they are not the author. (Copyright Infringement -> Misattributation of authorship)
03:47:24 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: That's plagiarism, and isn't so much a crime (usually) as a violation of school rules
03:47:42 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: tax returns arent "under oath" if you include "This information might contain inadvertant errors, the recipiant should verify"
03:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: For example, if you published the entirety of the Harry Potter books, even saying "By J. K. Rowling", it would be copyright infringement
03:49:00 <Zarutian> oh, right it is the Publishment-Exclusive right, sorry my mistake
03:49:07 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Plagiarism *can* be a crime, insofar as it is fraud.
03:49:18 <zzo38> Also some stuff is public domain and is not copyright.
03:49:27 <pikhq> That said, it's more complex than just plagiarism is itself a crime.
03:49:51 <pikhq> ... Also, apparently fraud isn't a crime, it's a tort.
03:49:56 <zzo38> I think even in such case it would still be plagiarism to claim that it is not public domain, but I do not really understand it
03:49:57 <Zarutian> zzo38: yet often you are not allowed to declare that public domain stuff is by you unless it literally is
03:50:03 <pikhq> (i.e. something you can sue someone for, not something you can be arrested for)
03:50:09 <quintopia> for instance, every word on the esolang wiki (i hope--would be a jerk move if people are copypasting copyright shit onto it)
03:50:30 <pikhq> Zarutian: Depends on the jurisdiction.
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03:50:43 <hppavilion[1]> Advertising something as public domain when it isn't would probably constitute a license violation (so lawsuit-worthy, but not criminal)
03:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> Because, AFAICT, Public Domain is basically the same as a null license
03:51:09 <Zarutian> pikhq: most sane jurisdiction has it in their laws about Authorship to prevent someone taking something out of the public domain
03:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> It would be lawsuit-worthy, but there isn't anyone who could act as a plaintiff xD
03:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It would be plagiarism to a school... but whether it could be punished by any non-employer authority is probably complicated
03:53:48 <Zarutian> now, Cheque Fraud is interesting because an Cheque is a promisary note and also an instruction to your bank to pay someone. If you are forging an Cheque you are basically makeing an false instruction to the backing bank.
03:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> The only real downside to claiming something isn't public domain is that someone might notice someday and call your bullshit on it, and people would stop pretending it is
03:55:08 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'm really pretty conflicted on regulation
03:55:39 <hppavilion[1]> As a liberal (~-0.2 on the horseshoe), I feel like they should be
03:55:48 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: now, here is a thing, if you forge an Cheque but stamp it with "INVALID" across it. Is it theft?
03:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> But as a programmer, I feel like that's a stupid idea
03:55:54 <zzo38> I had the different idea that you should be allowed to add a public and/or private key on your bank account; these can be used to digitally sign a cheque, as well as to access your account over the internet by SSH. But it is optional thing to do
03:56:35 <Zarutian> zzo38: and perhaps get OpenPGP encrypted statements in email and such
03:56:41 <hppavilion[1]> (but seriously, a bank that lets you computer it is brilliant)
03:56:53 <zzo38> So one field on the cheque you can write the digitally signed numbers.
03:57:38 <hppavilion[1]> (ooh! And perhaps you could run scripts on it that will automatically turn you a profit (for free or a small fee), but the bank gets to take a percentage of any profits you make (but, naturally, they don't have to pay if you lose money :P))
03:58:09 <hppavilion[1]> The bank software is entirely written in funge, of course
03:58:43 <zzo38> Also include the QR code on the bank statement that encodes the compressed contents of the bank statement, so that you can scan it into the computer.
03:59:00 <hppavilion[1]> But the programmer side of me feels like regulating banks is stupid because, if you bind it to the word "bank", you have the issue of people not calling themselves a "bank" but performing all of the services (with no regulation)
03:59:37 <Zarutian> I asked my local bank, they werent willing to run anything turing complete nor with any more access than read access to transactionslog.
03:59:52 <zzo38> Digitally sign and QR code feature both require a computer but would not require internet connection, and also would not require you to use a specific computer or their specific software. To access your account over the internet by SSH of course does require internet connection.
04:00:19 <Zarutian> zzo38: congrats you just reinvented b-cash iirc
04:00:23 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: My local bank only lets me run programs that halt :/
04:00:48 <shachaf> I can't tell whether someone olisted already.
04:01:00 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
04:01:07 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: so something that is basically on the level of primitive recursive functions?
04:01:26 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: No, it can be TC, it just can't run forever
04:01:28 <Sgeo_> I knew about the olist for hours but didn't think to olist this place
04:01:47 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: so, timeout limit then?
04:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Because my bank solved the halting problem
04:02:20 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: so bullshit in the same category as kyc/aml
04:02:33 <hppavilion[1]> (they paid off the Turing Estate to lift the restriction, just for them)
04:02:49 <hppavilion[1]> And if you bind it to the stuff done by a bank, it feels stupid because that prevents some probably-legitimate companies from existing because they might have an incompatible set of services (do enough to qualify as a bank, but also do stuff that someone might want but banks aren't allowed to do)
04:04:03 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: what would you consider sane regulation for banks (of the cheque-ing and savings account kind)?
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04:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Basically, banks should have to follow the laws everyone else does
04:04:54 <hppavilion[1]> They can't tell you they'll hold your money then refuse to give it back, because that would be theft
04:05:46 <Zarutian> they cant refuse to give it back precisely because it would be theft
04:06:18 <zzo38> The SSH access will have two main commands "inquiry" to tell you how much money you have and "split" to split some of your money into a new account; you can then send the key of the new account to whoever you want to pay (the send can be by internet or using other communications channels; it does not matter).
04:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> They can't violate a contract because that'd be violating a contract
04:06:30 <Zarutian> or that is at least in sane juristictions.
04:06:40 <zzo38> Depending on the account and on the bank and so on, there may also be additional commands such as "statement" and "convert" and so on.
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04:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> They can't break into your house at night, beat the shit out of you, insert a large object into an orifice, then snap your neck, because that would be burglary/assault/battery/rape/murder
04:07:24 <Zarutian> zzo38: ya read what nick szabo has written? And btw that sounds little bit like the functionality of paymer|webmoney notes
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04:08:14 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: That's the stuff that I'm not conflicted at all about
04:09:00 <hppavilion[1]> Any form of regulation that can be easily evaded with wording or that could prevent a legit company from doing legit things sets of my programmer to varying degrees
04:09:33 <hppavilion[1]> ...Wikipedia lists statutory rape under "Victimless Crimes"
04:09:35 <Zarutian> what kind of regulation would that be?
04:09:54 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: re wikipedia because both parties are consenting
04:11:10 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, in theory, someone could want you to perform any service
04:11:14 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: what would you think that a company cant do but is legit in your view.
04:12:30 <Zarutian> I do not know enaugh latin but I suspect it would be something to informed cavet emptor, no?
04:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> So preventing any service which is classified as a bank (by features) from performing a service that someone could want (and isn't going to victimize someone else) seems stupid
04:14:13 <Zarutian> the "AS IS" clause of many software licenses, so to speak. (Also "WARNING THIS SOFTWARE HAS NOT BE CERTIFIED FOR AVIONICS, <etc>"
04:14:50 <Zarutian> well, you are basically entering the area of regulatory capture here.
04:15:15 <zzo38> But there is also credit union, and that is also a kind of bank. You need shares in the credit union to have the account, but then you can access it from any credit union ATM (even if it is a different company) and not have to pay the service charge.
04:16:44 <Zarutian> you pay service charge for using an ATM? where I am from the banks just bill each other and settle in eather direction.
04:17:29 <zzo38> You don't have to pay service charge if the ATM and the account are both credit unions (they can be different credit unions though)
04:17:41 <Zarutian> but yes, I have heard numerous times (even from my local bank) to use credit unions in USA and not the banks there
04:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I suppose we can just make a law say that the regulations can be waived by someone signing a contract
04:18:59 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: you sure you havent followed or played any nomics?
04:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: I'm trying to get into Agora or start my own Nomic
04:19:34 <hppavilion[1]> (I am, personally, of the opinion that contracts should pretty much be above US law when applied to the group of people signing them, if they're able to reasonably consent to the contract
04:20:38 <Zarutian> you used that word "reasonably" which to me is a weasle word. (A kind of bullshytte as Erameas in Anathem would say)
04:21:20 <hppavilion[1]> Well, "reasonably consent" would be defined somewhere
04:22:01 <hppavilion[1]> Like, "not mentally ill (insofar as [...]), over 18, not intoxicated..."
04:22:09 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: hmm.. are you familiar with the mouse trap from Agora nomic? it resvolvs around this very issue iirc
04:22:33 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: how about "is the only company providing this service for residents at place X"?
04:23:26 <nortti> say, you can either sign a contract that waiwes some of your rights, or you don't get, say, internet connection
04:23:39 <Zarutian> but I am nonplussed about the ISPs (usually cable) in USA. You mean there are exclusive franchises?
04:23:47 <hppavilion[1]> Do you mean, as in, if ONLY this company gives electricity in your city, they can't mix in "you sign this contract and we give you power, BUT we can kill you if we feel like it"
04:24:20 <pikhq> Yes, in the US there are often exclusive franchises.
04:24:35 <nortti> or, several companies provide such service, but all require such a contract
04:25:11 <nortti> and what about if you can get service without signing such a contract, but it will be much shittier than if you do
04:25:29 <Zarutian> pikhq: never understood why that is allowed at all.
04:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: I don't know, probably that you can't force a company to provide internet to an area
04:26:30 <Zarutian> pikhq: then again USA real estates/properties have 'easement' which is bizzare to me
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04:27:09 <hppavilion[1]> So if only one company is willing to provide wifi to a region, then nobody could get wifi at all there because you can't just have one company
04:27:12 <pikhq> Easements, though common in the US, are *very* much a common law concept.
04:27:18 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: sure, but the converse should also be true: you can not force a company not to provide internet to an area
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04:27:40 <Zarutian> pikhq: only USA and UK has it iirc
04:27:53 <pikhq> No, other common law jurisdictions should have it.
04:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But if exclusive franchises are banned, then those are incompatible
04:28:10 <pikhq> Essentially, easements are non-possessive, non-exclusive rights to property.
04:28:30 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: exclusive franchises are often made and forced upon people without their explict consent
04:29:17 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: also you have situations where companies agree to not "tresspass on each other's territory"
04:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> Because if you can't force someone to, but you can't force them not to, then if only one person wants to set up shop in a region, you can't make another person do it too to prevent an exclusive franchise, but you can't force the first person not to to prevent an exclusive franchise
04:29:28 <pikhq> Most notable in things like roads and their associated right-of-way: in common law, you can't purchase a road and bar someone access to their property via it, as they possess an easement on that road.
04:29:53 <Zarutian> pikhq: well, there are sometimes 'limits' on properties but they are always listed in the deed of it.
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04:30:45 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Maybe a different kind of contract would be necessary to waive rights; like, special, separate ones that are ONLY allowed to do one thing
04:31:09 <hppavilion[1]> So you can't roll "I can murder you if I feel like it" in with "you get wifi"
04:31:39 <nortti> what defines what can and cannot be combined?
04:31:52 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: exclusive franchise is enforced by law. I am against that. I want the possibility that a competitor can come around if the encumebenant is being nasty with their terms of service
04:32:11 <nortti> if it's a general rule, how do you prevent loopholing, and if it's per-case, haven't we reinvented regulations
04:32:29 <pikhq> Zarutian: It's worth remembering the history of common law as an outgrowth of the English feudal system, to try and make sense of WTF it does and how it works.
04:32:46 <hppavilion[1]> There's nowhere in the US where only one company is /allowed/ to provide wifi (I think); its' just that there are some places where only one company has /decided/ to do so
04:32:55 <pikhq> Especially as relates to property law.
04:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: Probably you can only put rightwaiving in one kind of contract and normal stuff in another
04:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: So the mousetrap is basically saying "if I say something, you all have to agree with me"?
04:33:51 <pikhq> It's fairly distinct from how it tends to work in civil law.
04:34:46 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: a mouse trap would be kind of "if you perform this action (or fail to perform it) then you hereby consent to be bound by this contract|contest-rules"
04:36:17 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: if it were allowed you could make an contract that bites an judge in his|her arse if they conclude an spefic trial in certain direction
04:38:09 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But what we mean is that it's a contract that you enter without explicitly saying you want to agree to?
04:38:22 <Zarutian> pikhq: one consequence of civil law regarding property is that service lines such as sewage, power and such do not have right of way through my property. (Though there is usually agreement for the service lines you request to have on your property to get those services)
04:39:06 <Zarutian> pikhq: hence there are branches from the mainlines under the roads (which is on land owned by the government) to each house
04:40:11 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Someone did <-- you probably did just as clog was down.
04:41:36 * oerjan realizes the obvious, but is too far up in the scrollback.
04:42:59 <Zarutian> pikhq: and the title and deed registry is extremely precise regarding where property lines lie. Sometimes resulting in stuff like where an corner of you lot (if it is on the corner of two roads) is owned by the goverment because they though that the corner of the roads would be more curved
04:43:46 <Zarutian> pikhq: in one case the goverment sold such a corner to the lot owner for token price
04:43:49 <pikhq> Alas, in common law, while the deed registry is similarly precise, the actual use of the land can override the deed.
04:44:26 <alercah> Zarutian: that's true in common law too
04:44:33 <alercah> (the bit about underground, I mean)
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04:44:45 <alercah> in common law, property rights extend indefinitely downwards and upwards
04:45:18 <pikhq> Except insofar as easements go. It's possible for there to be an easement on the property where the service lines go through.
04:45:20 <Zarutian> pikhq: not so in civil law. Though there are restrictions on huge properties such as agriculture lands and such
04:46:01 <pikhq> Buuut it gets complicated there.
04:46:04 <Zarutian> (responding to the comment on the actual use of the land overriding the deed)
04:48:18 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: If you're referring to a specific real-world thing
04:49:06 <hppavilion[1]> The government used eminent domain to take Hess's land, but they missed that triangle, so Hess's heirs still owned that little spot
04:49:15 <Zarutian> alercah: not so where I live. The property right extends upward to the defined aerospace floor (lowest that airplanes are allowed to fly) and down to the structural bedrock. So if someone digs a tunnel so far underneeth your house that the tunel might as well not be there structurally wise then you have no property right to it.
04:49:52 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: I am refering to a spefic real-world thing and no it was not backwards.
04:50:20 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: the road was planned well before any house was to be built
04:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hess_triangle
04:51:32 <Zarutian> (the land was bought from a farmer adjenct to the city, roads and property lines decided and then sold in those pieces)
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04:52:28 <hppavilion[1]> The city took his land to widen a street, but they missed the triangle
04:52:29 <Zarutian> I am not talking about the Hess triangle
04:53:16 <Zarutian> why did the city take his land to widen a street? poor planning when that street was laid down?
04:53:37 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: When the street was laid, we didn't have cars
04:55:19 <Zarutian> well, the usual rules (where I live) regarding property is that you cannot buy a piece of it unless the property has been split up explictly beforehand
04:55:38 <hppavilion[1]> Under civil law, land is owned from bedrock to the aerospace floor by default
04:55:41 <Zarutian> (same applies to the eminent domain)
04:56:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh god, and with lax enough timesharing rules, someone can own a 4D plot
04:56:25 <Zarutian> not land but property, but only if the properties below have restrictions to literally suport the ones above
04:57:20 <pikhq> I think you can arbitrarily subdivide property here.
04:57:44 <Zarutian> pikhq: same where but you have to declare it to the property registry
04:58:05 <Zarutian> pikhq: same if you are combining two adjenct ones into one
04:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: CERN should allocate a 1-square-centimetre space and sell it to people in planck-area plots
04:59:25 <pikhq> Zarutian: I think here you don't *have* to, but if you don't you are going to have a much harder time defending property rights.
04:59:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: clog is the logging bot hth
04:59:57 <Zarutian> pikhq: precisely why you have to here
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05:06:04 <Zarutian> pikhq: the declaration only needs to be public in a way so the landregistry will be informed of it
05:06:54 <Zarutian> lovely, I think a link somewhere in USA went on the fritz as both freenode and efnet disconnected on me
05:08:55 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to introduce "The Pinocchio Bill" to congress: the text is simply "Congress shall not pass the Pinocchio bill"
05:09:18 <hppavilion[1]> Any congressman who comments that it creates a paradox they cannot escape from will be immediately removed from office
05:11:47 <oerjan> there is no paradox if they don't pass it hth
05:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So if they are too hasty and think that there is a paradox, then they should be removed from office because they don't understand even basic logic
05:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> There's no rule against Pinocchio's nose growing when he tells the truth
05:15:38 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: you are saying that the growth of his nose is the consequent of an implies condition which is "pinocchio is lieing", yes?
05:16:15 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But nose growth is possible when pinocchio is /not/ lying
05:16:46 <hppavilion[1]> Does pinocchio's nose grow only when he lies, or does it grow any time he makes a false statement?
05:16:49 * oerjan recalls that in the original book, there are two kinds of lies, the other gives short legs instead.
05:17:53 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: if the latter is true then he can get a job as an science instrument though it would require a saw
05:18:18 <oerjan> i'm not sure the fairy elaborated on that.
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05:20:11 <oerjan> as the original was, afaik, a christian (catholic) moral fable, don't expect it to follow programmer logic.
05:20:29 * oerjan has forgotten most of it, anyway.
05:20:52 <oerjan> if i ever _did_ read it through.
05:21:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Short leg lies are ones that people believe for a little while, but that will eventually be shown false
05:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Long nose lies are obviously false to everyone EXCEPT the liar
05:21:36 <Zarutian> hmm.. I think there was some wizard fantasy where even an journey man could make an stone that gave the holder a burning sensation if he uttured a false statement. Most of the wizards thought it useless until someone started to keep a list of statements that he or she had tried and the outcome
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05:25:01 <Zarutian> one story was about a theif had acquired such a stone and used it to map out the premises of a place he wanted to bulgarize
05:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> But if pinnocchio's nose was just true/false, then it would have serious military applications: "Iran has a nuke", "Russia plans to start a war with the USA", "There is an active, serious attack being planned on American soil"
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05:27:46 <Zarutian> the theif could only do it a few times before anyone with any wealth worth the risk cought on.
05:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> Even more terrifying is if it's the other way around- if Pinocchio says something will happen, the growth of his nose doesn't indicate the future; if he says something about the future is true and his nose doesn't grow (perhaps because it wasn't strictly a lie or because it has been prevented using LAZERS), then he has now set a mandatory future event that cannot be averted
05:29:25 <Zarutian> those people just hired security that had the job to regularly use such a stone to ask if anyone was or had recently used such a stone to enquire about the contents of a specified residence or building. If so then valueable stuff was moved around.
05:30:27 <hppavilion[1]> God, once all knowledge is accessible upon specific true/false query, the world gets complicated
05:30:30 <Zarutian> btw those stones were unable to say anything about the future
05:31:12 <Zarutian> as you got the zen feeling of both the sensation of burning and not burning
05:32:36 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: that was the entire point of the story
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05:33:48 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Was the zen feeling weighted? For example, if you say something that is true in 1 in 4 potential futures, do you feel 1 part burning, 3 parts non-burning?
05:34:08 <Zarutian> there was also the restriction that the enquries must be stated about objective and not subjective
05:34:25 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: nope, just always equal
05:34:56 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: How would it respond to "The Prequels were decent movies"?
05:35:21 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, what if you make a collective statement without a qualifier?
05:35:54 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: by not doing anything as such is an subject enquiry
05:38:41 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: "The <spefic> blue stone was at time <timestamp, shortly ago> inside the second ring on the <spefic> board", kind of questions?
05:39:27 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, like, if you say something like "Cretians are liars"
05:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically "Rule of Thumb: Cretians are Liars"
05:40:44 <Zarutian> you forgot that the stones only gave the burning sensation for false statements
05:42:06 <Zarutian> and the statement must be completely understandable by the asker to be as spefic as possible or nothing would happen
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05:50:31 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody MMWed that an Olympian will learn Spanish to prepare for the Rio Olympics
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05:51:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://xkcd.com/246/
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06:08:46 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.reddit.com/r/MarkMyWords/comments/4vcce3/mmw_on_obamas_last_day_in_office_he_and_his/d5xq10x
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06:13:46 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: the_donald is its own parody
06:14:01 <alercah> I think most people there are honest though
06:14:07 <alercah> I don't think it's quite conservapedia
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06:15:47 <hppavilion[1]> LBJ was sworn in using Kennedy's instructions for how to do mass, as no Bible was on hand
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07:08:18 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_poetry
07:08:27 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Perl
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07:39:50 <izabera> what's a regex to match lines that contain at least 3 different characters?
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07:44:27 <alercah> izabera: I'm not sure there's a succinct one
07:44:59 <alercah> the minimal DFA requires |\Sigma|^2+2 states, pretty trivially
07:45:31 <oerjan> can you put \n in a negative lookahead?
07:46:20 <alercah> backreferences and lookaheads are not features of regular expressions hth
07:46:26 <izabera> someone in #regex gave me this https://regex101.com/r/xW5iA0/1
07:49:11 * oerjan swats alercah -----###
07:49:56 <oerjan> izabera: oh right clever
07:51:36 <izabera> i don't know the right term for that
07:52:01 <oerjan> oh right, no backtracking?
07:58:38 <izabera> it's called possessive quantifier btw
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08:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> When a game is updated, does the ESRB have to re-rate it?
08:54:12 <izabera> eric steven raymond's beard
08:56:23 <izabera> no it's decided, it's esr's beard
08:58:11 <myname> electronic steven rating beard
08:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: But IRL, it's the organization that says what games have too much blood or how bad it is that two people kissed
08:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> (and, let's be honest, gay men kissing is MUCH more likely to be bumped up than straight men kissing)
08:59:17 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i'd guess how bad a kiss is heavily depends on the genders of the participants?
08:59:55 <myname> i didn't read it while typing
08:59:57 <izabera> straigt couples only have great kisses?
09:00:30 <izabera> what about 3 men + 2 women
09:00:42 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: No, but straight couples are the least likely to offend Curmudgeons on the ESRB
09:00:55 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Please give me the proper digraph of kissing and I can clarify
09:01:12 <izabera> they're all sort of sticking their tongues out to touch the other five's
09:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> (Weirdly, the kissing digraph allows both loops AND duplicated edges)
09:01:42 <myname> that'll get nuked from orbit
09:01:50 <izabera> https://plus.google.com/u/0/+LinusTorvalds/posts?pid=6173274135056727234&oid=102150693225130002912 can we talk about this?
09:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That is, they'll allow you to release it, but only as DLC on an Alien game
09:02:38 <izabera> then it's very good 3d graphics
09:03:48 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: No, my problem is with Linus Torvalds using Google+
09:04:00 <izabera> he's been using it for years
09:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> rms is the one who has someone email him the HTML and prints it out, right?
09:04:46 <izabera> linux 4.0 got nicknamed "hurr durr ima sheep" because of a google+ poll
09:05:20 <myname> at least he doesn't back up like boaty mcboatface
09:05:42 <izabera> it's arguably not even the worst name so far
09:05:53 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_kernel_names
09:06:08 <myname> linux for workgroups is by far the best one
09:06:10 <FireFly> izabera: heh, maybe a cockpit in some museum rather than an actual in-use plane
09:06:21 <izabera> but there's his name on it
09:09:44 <HackEgo> /ESRB = Eric Steven Raymond's beard
09:10:01 <HackEgo> wisdom/esrb//ESRB = Eric Steven Raymond's beard
09:10:25 <izabera> linux 2.6.15 sliting snow leopard is older than mac os x snow leopard
09:15:05 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I really think they should've named it boaty mcboatface
09:16:06 <myname> there was also a voting for a design for a pril bottle (don't know if that's a thing elsewhere)
09:16:36 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Got_Back#Synopsis
09:17:53 <myname> http://net-netz-blog.de/index.php/wie-marketingaktionen-im-internet-nach-hinten-gehen-konnen/ (german)
09:18:43 <myname> they voted on a sticker for a bottle of washing stuff and a meme would've won by a landslide
09:20:26 <hppavilion[1]> I feel it's time for me to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_prefix
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09:42:26 <fizzie> A ship prefix sounds like something you put in front of your forum nickname to indicate your shipping preferences.
10:00:30 <hppavilion[1]> As Theseus once said, "I like big boats and I always lie"
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11:45:13 <HackEgo> minsky//to Minsky on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a Minsky machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
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13:59:00 <Jafet> is that an object-oriented minsky machine
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14:00:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Floater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49102&oldid=42435 * Zom-B * (-152) Source and binaries
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18:00:23 <izabera> https://i.imgur.com/kzzCkXd.jpg birth of openbsd
18:34:19 <Jafet> we need to stop accepting patches from, well, from developers with a proven history of causing critical security vulnerabilities until our code reviewers can figure out what's going on.
18:35:43 <orin> Let's start a new sound merger in English! The Darn-Damn merger!
18:36:56 <orin> that way rn won't just look like an m it will sound like one too!
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18:40:21 <orin> I wonder if anyone has a .corn domain?
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18:52:16 <Jafet> presumably the startup for marketing the .corn domain would be uni.corn. a.corn would house the root servers.
18:55:15 <orin> Hmm, another fun one would be .www domains
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20:40:50 <orin> man people swear at cell phones a lot
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20:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> "We have to bring balance between the light and dark sides of the Force" "OK, let's make sure there are a shitton of light side users and absolutely no Dark Side users whatsoever, that sounds pretty balanced" "Yeah, sounds go- wait, what?"
20:51:10 <izabera> bring peace by conquering everything
20:52:37 <orin> /r/empiredidnothingwrong
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23:11:03 <zemhill__> Slereah: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
23:11:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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23:19:37 <izabera> `` hashfunc () { local LC_ALL=C; printf %u\\n "$(( 64#9876543210${1//[!0-9a-zA-Z_@]/_} ** 2 ))"; }; hashfunc "hello world!"
23:22:43 <izabera> it's the fastest string hash i could come up with in bash
23:23:13 <izabera> i mean fastest decent string hash
23:23:30 <Sgeo_> qhttp://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-pictures/how-to-reset-volume-mixer-levels/39b6e5f2-0ee9-463c-89c9-8257264294cf?auth=1
23:23:32 <izabera> it even does avalanche nicely
23:23:33 <Sgeo_> http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-pictures/how-to-reset-volume-mixer-levels/39b6e5f2-0ee9-463c-89c9-8257264294cf?auth=1
23:30:34 <izabera> how bad is it for a hash function if hash(i) + hash(i+1) is always an odd number?
23:32:33 <int-e> maybe okay for hashtables, unacceptable for cryptography.
23:33:07 <izabera> it's to color the hostname in my shell prompt
23:33:52 <int-e> you're probably okay then
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23:38:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'm waiting for the glorious future when we can say "Greedo shot first, but due to the speed-of-light delay, there is no way Han's shot could have been specifically in reaction to Greedo rather than coincidentally placed"
23:39:17 <izabera> nobody would ever say that
23:39:43 <izabera> han shot first case closed
23:40:25 <hppavilion[1]> "Han shot first, but when the timestream was rewritten by the great Sacul, things changed"
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00:35:19 <boily> mwiriwe oerjaneza!
00:35:34 <oerjan> clog seems a little unstable lately :/
00:36:26 <oerjan> another bantu language?
00:36:40 <HackEgo> 1236) <rdococ> what? I just wanted a laugh... lol <rdococ> I need to stop using lol, lol <olsner> just stop then, hth \ 1281) <oerjan> i don't approve of nuclear-free zones; without nuclei we'd not exist hth
00:37:20 <boily> apparently it's a bantu language too. kinyarwanda.
00:37:42 <oerjan> and that's as close as i'm competent to guess, so googling ->
00:38:21 <quintopia> boily: you should know i'm on school-year schedule now, which means i will basically never be online right now on weekdays
00:38:35 <boily> quintopia: tile shuffling!
00:38:40 <boily> quintopia: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGHGHGH!
00:39:04 <HackEgo> tile shuffling? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:39:05 <olsner> quintopia: you should just skip school to idle on irc
00:39:32 <quintopia> olsner: if i were a student, i would totes do that--and did
00:39:58 <boily> I never IRCed during class, and nobody has proof that I did.
00:40:33 <boily> oerjan: damn. that one is hard.
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00:40:42 <oerjan> boily: okinawan is way off from the right continent hth
00:41:55 <quintopia> oerjan: do you come up with these well in advance?
00:42:54 <oerjan> quintopia: no i just found it
00:43:16 <quintopia> isn't that the people on the floating islands of titicaca
00:49:03 <oerjan> `le/rn tile shuffling/Tile shuffve games. ly addictie basis of many highling is th
00:50:26 <quintopia> tile shuffling is the basis of many highly addictive games?
00:51:09 <boily> speaking of addiction, I have new recruits to contact.
00:51:14 <oerjan> (i used genuine shuf for reliability hth)
00:52:03 <oerjan> i didn't use _only_ that.
00:52:11 <oerjan> split it up and rejoined in vim.
00:52:44 <quintopia> oh. what sequence of commands and keystrokes?
00:53:49 <oerjan> followed by heaps of arrows and correcting for accidental autoindent.
00:54:27 <oerjan> the other way, J followed by similar correction hth
00:55:05 <oerjan> (i guess i could have programmed the former, the latter is a little more awkward, like joining in sed always is.)
00:58:39 <oerjan> afterwards i checked, and it seems that shuf doesn't have any option for splitting by length.
00:59:09 <oerjan> i suppose there's that command which i've never used... cut or something?
01:00:33 <oerjan> note however, that i've now spent more time thinking about how i could have done it more efficiently than it took to mungle it half-manually.
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02:20:45 <boily> bonnuitopia, boerjannuit!
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02:37:22 <hppavilion[2]> Because if the big stuff on the internet stays accessible and doesn't get flushed out
02:37:34 <hppavilion[2]> Then peoples' opinions and beliefs will stick around longer
02:38:19 <hppavilion[2]> So you can see /exactly/ why people wanted to ban gay marriage historically, because they came out and said it (and if they lied, the opposition called their bullshit)
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04:54:25 <quintopia> i guess you don't feel like sharing with the class
04:56:50 <izabera> i don't understand how this strcmp makes the sort stable https://github.com/landley/toybox/blob/master/toys/posix/sort.c#L262-L267
04:56:52 <lambdabot> osfameron says: <Cale> I don't think he can read your fancy schmancy lowercase letters. <osfameron> ale: damn right
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05:44:36 <quintopia> izabera: it's not claiming to make it a stable sort
05:44:55 <quintopia> izabera: it's saying it will give the same answer every time
05:45:16 <izabera> but this results in a stable sort :o
05:45:55 <oerjan> that's not what a stable sort means.
05:46:20 <izabera> i know what it means but the result is a stable sort
05:46:20 <oerjan> a stable sort means that if two elements compare equal, they are kept in the same order.
05:46:32 <quintopia> izabera: xx and yy are the address of the things. if we sort them according to their addresses when sorting them by their keys doesn't help, we'll always put the one that came first originally first again
05:46:53 <izabera> aaaah it sorts the addresses
05:47:25 <izabera> wait, it sorts addresses with strcmp?
05:47:53 <oerjan> are you sure this thing doesn't crash all the time
05:47:58 <izabera> also the addresses point to malloc'd memory areas
05:48:10 <izabera> oerjan: i haven't found a way to crash it yet
05:48:22 <oerjan> well if it's malloced as one array...
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05:48:44 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought it involved sorting horses?
05:48:59 <izabera> ok but why using strcmp to compare addresses?
05:49:04 <quintopia> izabera: actually, xx and yy are char *, so i guess they are strings... i take it back i'm going to bed
05:50:11 <izabera> the comparison function for qsort is passed char ** pointers
05:50:17 <quintopia> that says... xx is a pointer to a char *
05:50:22 <oerjan> shachaf: i have no idea where your pun is hth
05:50:56 * oerjan hits shachaf with the saucepan for variation ===\__/
05:52:20 <izabera> $ printf %s\\n foo bar Foo fOo bAr | toybox sort -f | tr '\n' ' '
05:52:26 <izabera> ^ case insensitive non stable
05:52:30 <izabera> $ printf %s\\n foo bar Foo fOo bAr | toybox sort -sf | tr '\n' ' '
05:52:34 <izabera> ^ case insensitive and stable
05:55:14 <izabera> https://github.com/landley/toybox/ this thing
05:58:09 <oerjan> izabera: note that that part you linked to is performed when -s is _not_ set hth
05:59:38 <izabera> right :O so now i'm even more confused... they managed to make qsort stable in the first place, and then they make it unstable by doing that strcmp?
05:59:49 <oerjan> yes, it's a fallback sort.
06:00:24 <izabera> so back to square 1, how to make qsort stable?
06:00:24 <oerjan> it says in the comments "-sskip fallback sort (only sort with keys)"
06:20:49 <oerjan> girl genius: finally! (but how will it backfire...)
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08:41:21 <hppavilion[2]> What's wikipedia's policy for pagename reassignment?
08:41:41 <hppavilion[2]> What's wikipedia's policy for page topic reassignment?
08:42:00 <hppavilion[2]> If there's a page named N describing a topic T1 that is currently the most relevant thing referred to as "N"
08:42:17 <hppavilion[2]> Then a new, more relevant thing occurs after new information is created or released (T2)
08:42:36 <hppavilion[2]> Which T{1,2} gets N- the incumbent or the more relevant one?
08:54:17 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Considering_title_changes
08:57:32 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary_topic
09:00:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: the latter goes into some detail.
09:01:46 <oerjan> summary: "it's complicated" hth
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12:16:17 <HackEgo> drone//drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
12:16:27 <HackEgo> Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population.
12:17:11 <boily> symbiotic relationship? parasites? emergent organoïds?
12:17:48 <nortti> agametic reproduction?
12:18:27 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. any idea?
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14:03:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49103 * Erikkonstas * (+4616) Created page with "Ministring is an esoteric programming language with only two commands, operating on one cell. __TOC__ == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Instruction !! Action |-..."
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14:11:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49104&oldid=49103 * Erikkonstas * (+118)
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14:23:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49105&oldid=49104 * Erikkonstas * (-258)
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14:44:27 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
14:44:33 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
14:44:39 <lambdabot> list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command].
14:44:53 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
14:44:57 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
14:46:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49106&oldid=46238 * Erikkonstas * (+90) /* MiniStringFuck */ new section
14:47:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49107&oldid=49106 * Erikkonstas * (+0)
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15:07:06 <myname> why would you need a botcommand to ping someone?
15:08:40 <Phantom_Hoover> it just seems so much less convenient than ext4 for so little gain
15:11:16 <myname> you just mention someone?
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18:02:20 <izabera> i asked one of the zsh dev why assigning elements to an indexed array degrades very quickly to quadratic time
18:02:39 <izabera> i expected something like "we use linked lists to implement arrays"
18:02:49 <izabera> llua | every index array assignment requires looping over every element to find the length
18:02:51 <izabera> llua | so it takes time in zsh
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18:24:03 <myname> how is length important for that?
18:26:24 <izabera> not sure... all i know is that they're hash tables and they're not sparse, so assigning array[1000]=1 creates 999 empty elements
18:42:03 <myname> that doesn't necessarily have to be bad
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20:16:38 <quintopia> izabera: this seems like one of those situations where the time/space tradeoff is TOTALLY WORTH
20:19:37 <quintopia> if they haven't done so it's because the underlying implementation is so rekt they actually feel like they have a good reason not to. doesn't sound like something i want to even stand near
20:21:23 <orin> Wait, what is zsh based on?
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20:22:05 <myname> i don't get the question
20:22:16 <myname> what is the color blue based on?
20:22:22 <orin> oh, so it isn't a fork of anything?
20:22:58 <myname> i don't know any shell that is
20:23:12 <orin> tcsh is apparently based on csh
20:23:51 <izabera> busybox sh is a fork of ash, dash is a fork of ash, mksh is a fork of pdksh, etc..
20:24:19 <myname> except for dash i never heard of any of them
20:26:03 <orin> open source projects are very prone to fractures
20:26:07 <myname> i know sh, bash, zsh, dash, sash, ksh, fish
20:26:25 <orin> myname: what about csh?
20:26:27 <myname> well, they are, but i don't see much value in forking a shell
20:26:36 <myname> not that i can remember
20:26:36 <orin> csh used to be quite popular
20:27:16 <izabera> forking means you get to rewrite the parts you hate and add new features that upstream won't merge and fix bugs that they don't care about or don't consider bugs
20:27:54 <myname> i know, but in a shell?
20:28:12 <myname> like, is there even a thing you cannot configure in zsh?
20:28:29 <orin> myname: the performance of array operations
20:28:48 <myname> serious things, please
20:29:04 <orin> also, you might want a new and awsomer syntax like csh did
20:29:29 <myname> what syntax did it add?
20:29:56 <gamemanj> but if it's not called zsh, then how can the XKCD joke be made
20:30:03 <quintopia> it burns that myname doesnt consider the performance of array operations a serious concern
20:30:04 <orin> it replaces sh's algol-based syntax with a more C or basic based one
20:30:18 <myname> quintopia: not for a ahell, no
20:30:32 <myname> if i want fast stuff, i use a programming language
20:30:41 <orin> later some of its features were merged into bash
20:31:32 <quintopia> myname: what if you don't care if it's fast, but just don't want it to be abysmally slow?
20:32:13 <gamemanj> use brainfuck, that has extremely fast array operations
20:33:34 <quintopia> gamemanj: there are optimized implementations that do, yes
20:34:12 <gamemanj> ...if you define a tape as an array, most implementations have extremely fast array operations
20:35:00 <gamemanj> Except, of course, the zsh implementation, since that's what started this discussion of array operation speeds.
20:38:17 <myname> i love people writing black on black
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20:43:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.26724 \ cat: /bin/rainbow: No such file or directory
20:43:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/rainbow
20:44:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/pikhqbow
20:46:31 <orin> moony: it's a C program for maximum fastness
20:46:35 <quintopia> gamemanj: no, you have to have at least some intentional optimization to do tape[25]=62 in BF. since the corresponding BF program takes 87 steps, a naive implementation will also be that slow.
20:47:16 <gamemanj> quintopia: It depends which array operation you're doing.
20:47:38 <gamemanj> quintopia: Technically, you can perform an increment of cell 0 in one step.
20:48:27 <gamemanj> The operations themselves, however, are usually extremely fast.
20:48:31 <quintopia> gamemanj: i don't know of a single language that can't (except maybe zsh?)
20:49:41 <quintopia> obviously by "operation" we mean "the assignment or retrieval of an arbitrary integer to or from an arbitrary index"
20:50:23 <quintopia> where "arbitrary" here means "any value that can fit/ is allowed"
20:50:43 <gamemanj> in which case Brainfuck is not the language for optimized array accesses.
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20:51:35 <quintopia> clearly the best language under this definition would be a bf-like language that has only one cell that can only take one value
20:52:36 <quintopia> therefore, all assignment and retrieval operations that are allowed take constant time (zero time, to be specific)
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20:53:58 <gamemanj> They only take zero time in optimized implementations!
20:56:12 <quintopia> gamemanj: yes. but in this case, the optimized implementation will be the default implementation. here is a reference implementation in python: def tbf(s): print "0"*s.count(".")
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20:57:13 <gamemanj> quintopia: I have a faster implementation
20:57:38 <quintopia> gamemanj: i was just thinking about how to improve it, but i don't know how to count the "." in a string without reading the entire string
20:58:01 <gamemanj> all you have to do is remember that commands are generally written in C
20:58:29 <quintopia> gamemanj: are you talking about asymptotically faster or just wall-clock faster?
20:59:25 <quintopia> moonythedwarf: your theme is the problem.
20:59:25 -!- gamemanj has changed nick to gamemanj-your-cl.
21:02:00 <quintopia> you wouldn't be able to have a very long nick
21:03:12 <quintopia> but no, i imagine the evilest purpose would be to just give yourself the same nick as someone else, but with a spurious color code at the end, then go around putting awful things in that person's mouth
21:05:36 -!- gamemanj-your-cl has changed nick to gamemanj.
21:06:19 <gamemanj> Find a way to get people to trust you instead of the real one!
21:06:39 <gamemanj> If we're already assuming that putting awful things in their mouth is possible, we can go further,
21:07:15 <gamemanj> and consider tons of possible options - all dependent on the person, of course.
21:07:21 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
21:07:28 <gamemanj> And now you know why any sane IRC server blocks Unicode and colour tags from nicknames.
21:07:47 <gamemanj> ...perfect timing, hppavilion[2] :)
21:08:08 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
21:08:34 <gamemanj> you can't seriously think I believe that, right?
21:08:54 <hppavilion[1]> Only me, hppavilion[1], Lord of the hppavilion[___] master race
21:09:52 <orin> moonythedwarf: the source is probably missing
21:10:49 <orin> `hg log bin/pikhqbow
21:10:52 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'log bin/pikhqbow' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff
21:11:01 <orin> `hg blame bin/pikhqbow
21:11:02 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'blame bin/pikhqbow' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff
21:11:31 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: ...you use /pol/'s brains as a computer? that's pretty amazing
21:11:54 <orin> `hg annotate bin/pikhqbow
21:11:55 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'annotate bin/pikhqbow' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff
21:12:06 <orin> `hg annotate -u bin/pikhqbow
21:12:07 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'annotate -u bin/pikhqbow' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff
21:12:11 <orin> `` hg annotate -u bin/pikhqbow
21:12:18 <orin> `` hg annotate bin/pikhqbow
21:12:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, if a human culture that has no understanding of computers develops, will there be computer-centric rituals?)
21:12:25 <orin> `` hg log bin/pikhqbow
21:12:27 <HackEgo> changeset: 8746:39d7b303497f \ user: HackBot \ date: Tue Jul 05 05:04:09 2016 +0000 \ summary: <pikhq> ` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow \ \ changeset: 8744:3000f072eaa6 \ user: HackBot \ date: Tue Jul 05 05:02:42 2016 +0000 \ summary: <pikhq> ` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow \ \ change
21:12:28 <hppavilion[1]> (In fact, are there already computer-centric rituals?)
21:12:36 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: I was hoping you'd say "console" so I can say "PC master race" to oppose your hppavilion[___] master race
21:12:53 <orin> `cat src/pikhqbow.c
21:12:54 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ #include <wchar.h> \ #include <locale.h> \ int main(){wint_t c;int a=0;setlocale(LC_ALL,"C.UTF-8");b:c=fgetwc(stdin);if(c==EOF) return 0;printf("\x03%d%lc%s",(int[]){4,8,9,11,12,13}[a],c,c==L','?"\x0f":"",c);if(++a==6)a=0;goto b;}
21:13:00 <gamemanj> (also yes, there are computer-centric rituals... it's called an all-nighter)
21:13:08 <hppavilion[1]> PC gaming is a tenet of the hppavilion[___] master race, but it isn't a core part
21:13:15 <orin> `cat src/orenbow.c
21:13:16 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ int main(){printf("\e[1m");int a,c=0;b:a=getchar();if(a==EOF)return 0;if(!(a&128)||(a&64))printf("\e[%dm","\37! $\"#"[c]),c=c+1-6*(c>4);putchar(a);goto b;}
21:13:29 <orin> oh right I did something insane that time
21:13:31 <gamemanj> then what are the core parts, hppavilion[1]
21:13:57 <quintopia> i would say "falling asleep in the glow of an electronic device" is a computer-centric ritual. it replaces the former ritual of vespers
21:14:57 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: That's not so much a ritual as it is a common occurrence that happens by repetitive natural causes
21:15:54 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: it's something that people choose to do on a nightly basis. what's the distinction
21:16:46 <hppavilion[1]> A real computer-centric ritual is, when a friend leaves themselves logged into Facebook on your computer, you post "I'm gay" or one of the other sacred trollposts and promptly log out
21:17:48 <gamemanj> A real computer-centric ritual is when you... uh, hang on, let me hook up the terminal-ruining random spam port, please wait...
21:18:57 <gamemanj> ..."nc gamemanj.duckdns.org 25561". Totally not a terminal-ruining random spam port, really!
21:26:11 <hppavilion[1]> It's funny because the Tama are just like "seriously, bro. How do you not get what we're saying?"
21:27:32 <orin> `` nc gamemanj.duckdns.org 25561
21:27:32 <HackEgo> gamemanj.duckdns.org: forward host lookup failed: Host name lookup failure : No such file or directory
21:30:17 <hppavilion[1]> Because they can translate what they're saying into english, but they don't know the context of what they mean
21:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> (I wonder if I could make an english dialect for this...)
21:32:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/src/orenbow.c
21:33:10 <orin> `` nc orenwatson.be 80 <<<"GET /allchars.txt"
21:33:11 <HackEgo> orenwatson.be: forward host lookup failed: Host name lookup failure : No such file or directory
21:34:05 <HackEgo> (UNKNOWN) [31.50.3.164] 25561 (?) : Network is unreachable
21:34:22 <gamemanj> you know, orin, I think HackEgo's network may be down
21:34:45 <gamemanj> this isn't just "no such file or directory", it's "what network interface?"
21:34:56 <orin> `` dig orenwatson.be
21:34:57 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: dig: command not found
21:35:42 <orin> `` nc 52.2.213.98 80 <<<"GET /allchars.txt"
21:35:43 <HackEgo> (UNKNOWN) [52.2.213.98] 80 (?) : Network is unreachable
21:35:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:36:19 <HackEgo> Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help instead.
21:36:24 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:36:47 <orin> oh, maybe hackego doesn;t have internet
21:37:34 <gamemanj> `fetch http://gamemanj.duckdns.org:25561/
21:37:54 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
21:38:21 <gamemanj> like, it said "No output." before I even finished
21:38:45 <gamemanj> `` grep "Everything is fine now." *
21:38:46 <HackEgo> grep: advice: Is a directory \ grep: bin: Is a directory \ grep: cdescs: Is a directory \ grep: emoticons: Is a directory \ grep: esobible: Is a directory \ grep: etc: Is a directory \ grep: evil: Is a directory \ grep: factor: Is a directory \ grep: good: Is a directory \ grep: hw: Is a directory \ grep: ibin: Is a directory \ grep: interps: Is a
21:39:09 <gamemanj> `` grep -s "Everything is fine now." *
21:39:16 <gamemanj> ok, it didn't download anything
21:39:24 <orin> `fetch http://orenwatson.be/speliG
21:39:25 <HackEgo> 2016-08-10 20:39:01 URL:http://orenwatson.be/speliG [538] -> "speliG" [1]
21:40:07 <orin> HackEgo is probably partially an irssi script
21:40:15 <HackEgo> yet another spelling reform proposal. \ capital vowels are long, lowercase short. \ bat -> bat bait -> bAt \ bet -> bet beet -> bEt \ bit -> bit bite -> bIt \ bot -> bot boat -> bOt \ but -> but boot -> bUt \ some extra vowels use other letters \ bout -> bWt book -> bVk beaut -> bYt \ when a sound that isn't a vowel is held, it i
21:40:30 <gamemanj> Totally do NOT http://gamemanj.duckdns.org:25561/
21:40:40 <gamemanj> Someone - and I do not know who
21:40:48 <gamemanj> is making requests whenever a URL is posted in channel
21:41:05 <orin> with an irssi script?
21:41:48 <gamemanj> But it's from a different IP for each one
21:41:54 <gamemanj> there are multiple people doing this, I'd bet
21:42:20 <gamemanj> Multiple people in this channel are running something to HEAD any URL posted in channel
21:42:48 <gamemanj> They don't do a GET, they do a HEAD
21:43:45 <gamemanj> time to annoy one by redirecting it
21:44:16 <gamemanj> ...not really, the URLs are getting a bit much
21:45:31 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:46:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access speliG: No such file or directory
21:49:04 <orin> I wonder why unicode has fffiflffifflſtst but no ct ligature
21:53:13 <gamemanj> what the... the ligatures... my head...
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22:04:58 <orin> gamemanj: ʣʤʥʦʧʨʩʪʫ
22:05:03 <orin> those also exist
22:05:50 <gamemanj> (how to confuse an Amiga user: unicodeSupport.ʫh)
22:07:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ʪ: not found
22:13:36 <orin> gamemanj: are you aware of the ㍲㎎ square unit chars, like ㍴, ㎈, ㎉?
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22:14:40 <orin> ㍲㎎ is dalton nanograms
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22:58:36 <lambdabot> CYUL 102100Z 21014G24KT 30SM FEW050TCU SCT080 32/20 A2997 RMK TCU2AC1 SLP150 DENSITY ALT 1900FT
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22:59:08 <boily> 32 is too damn high.
23:01:42 <orin> boily: itym too ㍲㎎ high
23:01:46 <lambdabot> LOWI 102150Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 -SHRA FEW009 BKN060 11/10 Q1023
23:02:08 <int-e> much more pleasant :)
23:02:20 <lambdabot> CYYB 102100Z 34009G18KT 270V360 30SM SCT055 BKN090 BKN260 26/20 A3002 RMK CU4AC2CI1 SH E SLP166 DENSITY ALT 2600FT
23:02:41 <lambdabot> CYYZ 102100Z 28009G15KT 260V330 15SM SCT080 BKN250 35/15 A3002 RMK AC3CI2 SLP163 DENSITY ALT 2800FT
23:02:53 <orin> that does not make sense
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23:05:58 <boily> hellorin! shed your slashes for summer?
23:06:11 <boily> int-ello. for once I envy your weather.
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23:40:06 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I live, like, a half mile from an airport, but you never check my weather ;-;
23:40:38 <boily> hppavellon[1]! sorry, I don't know which airport you are weathered at :(
23:40:53 <boily> (or you told me, and I forgot. even more impardonabler.)
23:42:14 <lambdabot> ESSB 102220Z AUTO 18003KT 9999 FEW038/// BKN055/// OVC066/// 11/08 Q1005
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00:19:02 <lambdabot> KBOS 102254Z 21008KT 10SM FEW017 SCT036 BKN070 BKN220 26/24 A3008 RMK AO2 RAB23E49 SLP185 P0002 T02560239
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00:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> The Volkswagen Transporter (Hippie Van) is sometimes referred to as the "Type 2" because of its factory designation (Type 1 was the Beetle/slugbug)
00:24:25 <hppavilion[1]> Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3 (yeah, this is going to get confusing)
00:25:14 <hppavilion[1]> T2 came in two generations- T2a ("early bay") and T2b ("late bay")
00:25:58 <hppavilion[1]> A T2c was also sold in South Africa for a while (it may still be, I'm not sure)
00:26:05 <hppavilion[1]> The difference being... the roof is 4 inches higher
00:26:33 <hppavilion[1]> There are now the Type 3, Type 4, Type 5, and the modern Type 6
00:28:06 <hppavilion[1]> There are also pickup variants, but we do not speak of those
00:28:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Does this make me a hippie scholar now? Can I get a PhD in hippiology?)
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00:38:53 <HackEgo> cube//Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
00:39:17 <boily> I'm going to guess b_jonas, with oerjan overtones.
00:39:23 <boily> `culprits wisdom/cube
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01:09:03 <izabera> stupid disney.com redirects me to disney.it if i enable js
01:09:09 <izabera> and if i don't, i can't play videos
01:10:05 <boily> izabellora. disney.it doesn't work?
01:10:22 <izabera> they don't seem to have have anything about moana as of now
01:10:43 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't that because moana is a well known italian porn star/politician
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01:11:23 <izabera> the film will be called oceania in italy and several other countries in eu
01:11:36 <izabera> and disney.it got nothing about it yet
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01:18:09 <izabera> http://www.disney.com/?intoverride=true yeeah
01:18:12 <oerjan> <boily> darn. <-- *MWAHAHA*hoily.
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01:31:21 <boily> `relcome byteflame
01:31:22 <HackEgo> byteflame: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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01:37:00 <boily> `relcome hppavilion[1]
01:37:02 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1]: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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02:00:40 <oerjan> as in, he just sent those email messages.
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02:14:30 <quintopia> is there such a thing as continuous chess?
02:17:17 * boily checkmately mapoles moonythedwarf
02:17:48 <HackEgo> 678) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
02:18:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: d20: not found
02:18:08 <oerjan> quintopia: that was from a previous continuous chess experiment hth
02:18:15 <boily> moonythedwarf: I dodged.
02:18:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm maybe.
02:18:32 <boily> time to do a sleep check...
02:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> plz don't ask me to explain continuous chess again, i need to go to bed
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02:21:31 <oerjan> `mkx bin/d20//echo lambdabot: d20
02:21:52 <oerjan> `mkx bin/d20//echo d20
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02:25:52 <lambdabot> prooftechnique: 50 + 22 + 22 => 94
02:35:26 <shachaf> you're spamming the channel
02:36:08 <oerjan> moonythedwarf: it's not primary a calculator but a dice roller, you have to include at least one dice roll.
02:36:32 <oerjan> however, > gives you full haskell expressions.
02:38:01 <oerjan> yes, it uses Integer, which are bignums.
02:38:30 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
02:38:58 <oerjan> incidentally the line cutoff is bigger in privmsg hth
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02:53:03 <oerjan> well i've just about finished memorizing the lyrics to katyusha hth
02:54:09 <oerjan> as for esolangs, i dunno, i don't even keep up with the wiki these days.
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02:59:23 <myname> i have a run in pixel dungeon with 3 artifacts and i cannot decide which to use
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03:00:50 <myname> a roguelike for android and desktop
03:01:03 <myname> it's like the most forked game in play store
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03:02:52 <oerjan> @tell FireFly <FireFly> `` rainbow <<<hello <-- i have fixed most of those commands so you don't need <<< and stuff hth
03:04:39 <myname> it is turn based and with all that equipment management we love to hate
03:05:04 <quintopia> i like roguelikes with inventory mgmt
03:05:47 <quintopia> if it had more fighting and platforming elts, delver would be the perfect roguelike
03:06:48 <myname> i hate realtime roguelikes
03:06:59 <myname> they remove a lot of strategy
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03:08:08 <quintopia> they take out the annoying parts but keep the planning parys
03:08:09 <myname> i'd prefer dweller over delver
03:09:01 <quintopia> the parts that feel more like a puzzle game than a dungeon crawl
03:09:15 <quintopia> if i want to solve puzzles, i'll play drod
03:11:36 <myname> search function sucks in that regard
03:11:38 <quintopia> http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewsitepage.php?id=90294
03:11:51 <oerjan> <quintopia> gamemanj: yes. but in this case, the optimized implementation will be the default implementation. here is a reference implementation in python: def tbf(s): print "0"*s.count(".") <-- surely you need to skip loops hth
03:13:05 <quintopia> prepend a command that replaces [.] with nothing to the function body
03:14:03 <oerjan> you cannot do it with just one regular expression match hth
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03:30:41 <HackEgo> <orin> fetch http://orenwatson.be/speliG
03:31:30 <oerjan> @tell orin `revert has a bug so it doesn't work reliably for uncreating files hth
03:32:31 <oerjan> @tell orin and annoyingly, it looks fine right after you've done it.
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04:10:27 <myname> being freenode staff is not that special
04:10:29 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, that probably has to do with the ChanServ thing, it makes the official owner freenode-staff so that no one on the channel looks godly because of an orange dot (in my client)
04:11:27 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Not as in "the founder of #esoteric was a freenode staff member!?", but as in "the user who founded #esoteric is of the nick freenode-staff!?"
04:13:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the user who founded #esoteric got deregistered
04:13:59 <oerjan> and freenode had adopted a policy of taking over foundership themselves
04:14:18 <oerjan> otherwise, fizzie would have been next in line.
04:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm sorry, but is there a command to figure out what the flags are for a channel?
04:14:52 <oerjan> but i'm not sure if you need permissions for it
04:16:37 <hppavilion[1]> (If there are seeeeecret flags that aren't displayed at all, then you need permissions partially)
04:17:17 <hppavilion[1]> You must have been crazy 6 years, 24 weeks, and 2 days ago
04:18:14 <hppavilion[1]> (fizzie set it as +ARefiorstv set "? ago", but that doesn't tell me whether that's the current one)
04:18:34 <oerjan> i assume that's simply "all possible permissions"
04:19:07 <oerjan> in fact, i think only the founder can add flags to themselves
04:19:28 <oerjan> or flags they don't have to others
04:20:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Since the list I'm using has R as meaning only registered users can talk on one network, and as a thing that is used to automatically op someone when there are no ops online for a while on another, but obviously neither of those are used here (well, it could be the latter if the list is null))
04:20:27 <hppavilion[1]> (...I'll assume that it isn't current unless Freenode says it means something else)
04:20:32 <oerjan> R refers to a special "wipe channel" command
04:20:51 <oerjan> i don't think it's been used, at least since i got here.
04:24:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, that would have been fizzie being crazy, when he added me as op hth
04:25:49 <Jafet> `learn prefrigerator Prefrigerators are generalized frigerators with built-in preconditioners for the modern precompact home. They are now available to preorder.
04:25:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'prefrigerator': prefrigerator Prefrigerators are generalized frigerators with built-in preconditioners for the modern precompact home. They are now available to preorder.
04:26:17 <hppavilion[1]> Why is everybody calling the thing in Turkey a "coup"?
04:26:26 <Jafet> `` sed -i 's/prefrigerator //' wisdom/prefrigerator
04:27:04 <oerjan> quintopia: it was andreou when i got here, don't know if it's always been.
04:27:20 <hppavilion[1]> Since it's mainly of concern to non-mathematicians (mathematicians may care more percentagewise, but I'm going by gross numbers), shouldn't it be called a 'down'?
04:29:20 * oerjan pats his swatter. "you're too good for this."
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04:31:07 <quintopia> oerjan: was it a joke? did you get it?
04:31:25 <oerjan> yes. i got it. it was bad.
04:36:00 <hppavilion[1]> I made a pun so bad that oerjan refused to swat me.
04:36:46 <hppavilion[1]> That's like a Texas judge saying "You know, what you did is way beyond death penalty-worthy; so much so that I'm impressed and I'm-a just let you go"
04:37:14 <myname> one of my favorites is: your send your friend a list of 10 jokes in hope that at least one of them would make him laugh. no pun in ten did.
04:38:03 <oerjan> myname: you have to keep consistent tense hth
04:38:08 <quintopia> its like you swatted a fly and then called up the police and said "hey im a murderer what are you going to do about it" and they said "meh"
04:38:41 <oerjan> i think quintopia is slightly closer hth
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04:42:40 <myname> i am not used to think about tenses in english :D
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04:59:12 <oerjan> . o O ( "my next one" )
05:03:03 <quintopia> i think "rude officer red knows rain, dear" is right up there
05:04:42 <myname> i'd say it's swatworthy
05:05:08 <myname> also, the favorite japanese pun of a friend of mine is kuri to risu
05:05:11 <quintopia> yes. if it werent for the elaborate set-up it calls for
05:06:49 <quintopia> i also like that one: http://brownsharpie.courtneygibbons.org/?p=285
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05:22:52 <hppavilion[1]> I have my copy of Harry Potter and the Cursed Child
05:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> But am I supposed to picture Hermione as Noma Dumezweni or as Emma Watson
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05:28:18 <hppavilion[1]> Grah, but Emma Watson is 26 and when TCC takes place she'd be 36
05:29:22 <oerjan> your only solution is to wait 10 years hth
05:33:07 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: which one is hotter?
05:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I can't tell if this is a trick question xD
05:34:53 <hppavilion[1]> Going by physical appearance alone, Emma Watson. Personality and intelligence are irrelevant to the discussion because it's a fictional character and the personality will be the same either way xD
05:35:33 <hppavilion[1]> I was honestly probably going to use the exact same metric
05:36:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, but if Emma Watson tragically dies in the next 10 years, I'll never be able to read it! :,O
05:37:35 <hppavilion[1]> Harry Potter starts going to Hogwarts in 1991, at age 11
05:38:05 <hppavilion[1]> The final book is at age 17, and if we assume it's early 11 and late 17, that makes it a 7 year gap in the books
05:38:30 <hppavilion[1]> The epilogue of Deathly Hallows takes place "19 years later" and [SPOILERS] TCC starts there
05:39:04 <shachaf> in my opinion "which one is hotter?" and "kill yourself" are both quite out of place in here
05:39:36 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, unless we're discussing (a) stars and lasers and (b) ...quantum immortality maybe?
05:40:04 <quintopia> then again harry potter is out of place too
05:41:51 <hppavilion[1]> "Which is hotter" in the context of attractiveness is out of place on #esoteric because #esoteric is a small room where beings of pure, formless energy converse
05:43:55 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-ethical-singularity doesn't seem quite as crazy on the fifth reading
05:44:57 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: but you agree it is a good metric for deciding how to visually imagine a cgaracter in a piece of fiction so it was perfectly germane to the conversation at hand
05:46:11 <hppavilion[1]> ...yeah, but we like to pretend that it isn't part of being a non-asexual human
05:47:59 <izabera> pretend to like to pretend
05:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Really, I was just going for "is there anything in the book for which race is relevant?"; I suppose that (a) no, because it's a play and should be approximately reproducible with a completely different set of actors and (b) if it actually is relevant, it'd definitely be mentioned- then again, I'm reading it in script form, so there isn't really a way to mention it outside the very beginning)
05:49:01 <hppavilion[1]> I've also realized that reading a book in script form is probably pretty good for me, because it's basically just bullet points of story
05:49:20 <quintopia> i see no reason race is relevant at all. i find it a stranfe question.
05:49:35 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Well it's possible to have a story where the race of characters is important
05:50:10 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Most obviously TKaMb, but it's also possible with non-racially-oriented stories
05:50:14 <quintopia> now i am forced to admit that there arent many blacks named Granger...
05:50:47 <quintopia> yes it is possible to have such a story but hp doesnt seem like one
05:51:36 <hppavilion[1]> There's a character interpretation where, if Hermione is black, everything feels so much more meaningful
05:52:12 <quintopia> id have to reread it all to verify that
05:52:38 <hppavilion[1]> Because as a muggle-born, the assholes asshole her; if she's black, it can become something where she thought that becoming a wizard would get her away from the racism, but it turns out wizards have their own racism that she ALSO is susceptible to
05:53:22 <quintopia> was racism a big issue in early 90s svotland?
05:57:27 <MDude> And by that, I mean I know people mostly fougyht with their neighbors.
05:59:12 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Not ostensibly, but I see "is racism an issue" as a matter of "are more than ~5% of people racist" rather than "are there any racists at all in the country"
05:59:48 <MDude> Oh wait, early 90.
06:00:05 <MDude> I'm tired and read early [number] as meaning ancient times.
06:00:22 <MDude> Or earlier centuries.
06:04:44 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: it seems clear to me that rowling intended most of the hp characters to be white, but (possibly intentionally) left open the possibility they werent
06:05:10 <hppavilion[1]> 2.2% of people in the UK are black ATM, so if we assume that all characters' races are selected completely at random when race is not a significant factor (let's pretend they are; they aren't, but it probably still approximates), the odds of none of the main characters being black is around 94%. Which is obviously completely meaningless, but I'm really just a fan of doing statistics for fun and don't care about the odds as they
06:17:45 <izabera> https://github.com/chatziko/location-guard/
06:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> Some areas of my opinions, I think, have reached the point of "meta-feminist"
06:29:59 <hppavilion[1]> A big thing that feminists- across all waves- want to do is "raise strong, confident daughters, and tell girls that it's OK to stand up for yourself"
06:30:52 <hppavilion[1]> Mine is "Being a strong, confident woman is perfectly normal and good, but it's also usually completely fine if you want to be dependent and let other people do the talking for you. Whatever feels best for you"
06:31:22 <hppavilion[1]> ("(you should be able to stand up for yourself if you need to, but you don't have to do it all the time)")
06:32:21 <izabera> so how is that related to feminism?
06:33:07 <izabera> is that also meta-antifemminism?
06:34:20 <hppavilion[1]> Really, meta-feminism probably ties together with anti-feminism; whenever you go up by a level of freedom, the lower level seems wrong and oppressive
06:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> Sort of like how a dystopic society where speaking political dissent is a crime- but holding the opinions isn't- will see a society where even holding those opinions is a crime the same way our society sees them
06:35:53 <hppavilion[1]> There's probably an uber-free level of society above us that would see our society as a horrible dystopia
06:37:22 <hppavilion[1]> But I got these ideas from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, of all places
06:37:35 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of being about raising all girls to be strong, confident women who don't need no man
06:37:46 <hppavilion[1]> It has several characters, some of which fit that description and others of which don't
06:38:35 <hppavilion[1]> While Twilight fits perfectly into the stereotypical positive, strong roll model for little girls
06:38:50 <hppavilion[1]> Fluttershy very much doesn't, more reminiscent of the Classic-era Disney princesses
06:39:23 <myname> "whenever you go up a level"
06:39:38 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 36m 45s ago: <FireFly> `` rainbow <<<hello <-- i have fixed most of those commands so you don't need <<< and stuff hth
06:39:43 <shachaf> FireFly: @clear-messages hth
06:39:58 <myname> meta meta is not the same as anti anti, even in this case
06:40:05 <hppavilion[1]> And it is shown that this DOES cause trouble sometimes, but that it's OK to be demure, softspoken, keeping to yourself and loving a quiet, peaceful life is OK too
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07:11:16 <hppavilion[1]> Twitter blocked my account because I was exhibiting bot-like behaviors (apparently)
07:11:33 <hppavilion[1]> And to get unblocked I have to verify my phone number
07:13:00 <quintopia> also since when is it not allowed to be a bot on twitter
07:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: That'll probably just get my entire IP banned
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07:37:32 <izabera> https://www.google.com/search?q=oreo+swedish&tbm=isch this fucking thing
07:55:42 <oerjan> how can you go wrong with surströmming-flavored oreos
07:56:24 <nortti> better question would be how you could go right with those
07:58:02 <nortti> chemical weaponry is banned by geneva treaty
08:14:49 <hppavilion[1]> nopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenope
08:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: God, I wish that Geneva was in Sweden or that the fish were Swiss
08:15:59 <hppavilion[1]> Damn, in the alternate universe where they make Swiss Cheese-flavored oreos, the jokes are SO much better
08:17:47 <hppavilion[1]> But mostly because the people who eat it (and promptly rot alive) are people who THINK they're being funny because they have no understanding of TRUE comedy
08:23:51 <oerjan> i find your last line intensely meta-self-referential hth
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08:45:00 <oerjan> well it was a sick joke.
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09:06:39 <lynn> 07:35 <hppavilion[1]> There's probably an uber-free level of society above us that would see our society as a horrible dystopia
09:07:00 <lynn> Have you read Three Worlds Collide
09:08:13 <lynn> It's a short story relevant to that thought! Coincidentally this channel introduced me to it
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10:27:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49108&oldid=49105 * Erikkonstas * (+13)
10:28:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49109&oldid=49108 * Erikkonstas * (+2)
10:30:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49110&oldid=49053 * Erikkonstas * (+21) Added language MiniStringFuck to the list! Yay!
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10:38:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49111&oldid=49110 * Erikkonstas * (-46) No, no external site!!
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11:48:38 <HackEgo> nortti//nortti is a very nortti boy. He yielded to shikhin's promises, and now is his High Priest.
11:51:24 <HackEgo> shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow.
11:53:44 <gamemanj> ~>?~}{+-.,\*_!&%tell shikhin please don't kill me!
11:54:08 <gamemanj> ...you'd have thought one of those characters would have triggered a bot...
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12:17:48 <boily> @tell shikhin shellokhin. gamemanj would like very much for you to not do anything malevolent towards their person hth
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12:56:05 <Jafet> it knows all the house and wise.
13:01:02 <gamemanj> @tell boily wisdom.pdf typesetting (error???) found: <{\[oren]|}> zzo38:it will cause problems by being hilarious
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14:58:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49112&oldid=44712 * 86.146.9.60 * (+129) Added online interpreters
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17:05:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49113&oldid=49112 * 86.146.9.60 * (+1084) Added new features
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17:36:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49114&oldid=49075 * Weux082690 * (+46) Undo revision 49075 by [[Special:Contributions/Weux082690|Weux082690]] ([[User talk:Weux082690|talk]])
17:37:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49115&oldid=49114 * Weux082690 * (-46) Undo revision 49114 by [[Special:Contributions/Weux082690|Weux082690]] ([[User talk:Weux082690|talk]])
17:37:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49116&oldid=49115 * Weux082690 * (-1) Undo revision 49074 by [[Special:Contributions/Weux082690|Weux082690]] ([[User talk:Weux082690|talk]])
17:41:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49117&oldid=49116 * Weux082690 * (-3076) /* Computational class */
17:54:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49118&oldid=40601 * 91.244.87.202 * (+51)
18:05:33 <orin> swedish fish oreos? what has become of the thing once called man?
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18:52:33 <hppavilion[1]> God, I wish there was a way to temporarily forget 100% of my Star Wars knowledge (down to the basic premise) and watch the whole series anew
18:53:28 <hppavilion[1]> Because my parents showed me Star Wars too early (even by their own admission; I was 6, my mom had cancer, they were running out of distractions), so I don't remember the end of Empire.
18:58:21 <shikhin> nortti: You are my High Priest?
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19:01:54 <gamemanj> shikhin: Did the @tell not work...?
19:02:56 <shikhin> gamemanj: It did work. I'm afraid I can't promise not to kill you.
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19:40:45 <hppavilion[1]> Upon close examination of the 2011 release of Star Wars- specifically the controversial Han/Greedo confrontation sequence in the Mos Eisley Cantina scene- I've decide that, while Greedo technically shot first, Han's timing was close enough that the meaning is preserved (the way things go down, he was waiting for Greedo to fire; you can't fire back that quickly if you aren't specifically planning to. We can interpret Han waiting to shoot
19:40:45 <hppavilion[1]> second as not a matter of ethics and a code of honor, but a matter of if-he-fires-the-first-shot-I'm-not-legally-liable)
19:41:35 <FreeFull> Han knew Greedo will shoot either way
19:43:10 <hppavilion[1]> True, but it's less legally messy if Greedo fires the first shot
19:43:27 <hppavilion[1]> Remember, Han is a smuggler, but Greedo is a bounty hunter
19:43:51 <hppavilion[1]> Greedo's job is illegal and obvious- there's no way to get around it. If there isn't a dead body, you didn't do your job
19:44:02 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: or a prisoner
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19:45:10 <hppavilion[1]> So Greedo certainly knows how to deal with murder charges- it's part of his job description- but Han, as a generally non-violent criminal, prefers to be legally safe when he does have to kill someone
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20:48:46 <izabera> hey, does anyone know cloudatcost?
20:49:45 <izabera> i just bought a server and i'm setting it up and i'm wondering if you can change your mind on the config once it's installed
20:50:54 <izabera> faq says you can change os at any time
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21:16:17 <nortti> < shikhin> nortti: You are my High Priest? ← indeed. don't you remember?
21:24:09 <izabera> did anyone actually try that lwan thing?
21:25:03 <izabera> https://lwan.ws/ this thing
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22:23:10 <orin> I like the word "frustrum"
22:26:23 <Zarutian> orin: it confines and directs frustration?
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22:33:38 <fizzie> izabera: No HTTP/2? So retro.
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23:21:25 <lambdabot> CYUL 112200Z 21009G18KT 15SM FEW050 BKN250 31/20 A2990 RMK CU1CI6 CU TR SLP126 DENSITY ALT 1900FT
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23:31:31 <lambdabot> gamemanj said 10h 30m 25s ago: wisdom.pdf typesetting (error???) found: <{\[oren]|}> zzo38:it will cause problems by being hilarious
23:31:54 <boily> gamemanj: gamellomanj. trying to update the PDF? :D
23:37:56 <orin> @quote \[oren]|
23:37:56 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: user error (parseRegex for Text.Regex.TDFA.String failed:"\[oren]|" (line 1, column 9):
23:37:56 <lambdabot> expecting empty () or anchor ^ or $ or an atom)
23:38:12 <lambdabot> OlegFacts says: Oleg's latest project is re-writing Emacs... in the type system.
23:38:27 <orin> @quote [[]oren[]]
23:38:27 <lambdabot> No quotes match. You speak an infinite deal of nothing.
23:38:35 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Where did you learn to type?
23:38:39 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
23:39:17 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
23:39:17 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
23:39:19 <moon_> @quote !@#$%^*()\[]{}-=+_<>?/
23:39:19 <lambdabot> No quotes match. stty: unknown mode: doofus
23:39:28 <lambdabot> shachaf says: <cmccann> shachaf jokes are what the quotes section of HWN is for. <cmccann> though lately there have been not as many :[ <shachaf> cmccann: Hey, there wasn't a single shachaf quote in the last HWN! <shachaf> Leave me alone. <shachaf> There were two cmccann quotes.
23:39:42 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: user error (parseRegex for Text.Regex.TDFA.String failed:"\[oren]|" (line 1, column 9):
23:39:42 <lambdabot> expecting empty () or anchor ^ or $ or an atom)
23:39:46 <lambdabot> No quotes match. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
23:39:51 <moon_> @quote !@#$%^*()\[]{}-=+_<>?/|
23:39:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: user error (parseRegex for Text.Regex.TDFA.String failed:"!@#$%^*()\[]{}-=+_<>?/|" (line 1, column 24):
23:39:52 <lambdabot> expecting empty () or anchor ^ or $ or an atom)
23:39:58 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I don't think I can be your friend on Facebook anymore.
23:40:11 <boily> that b is suspicious hth
23:40:13 <lambdabot> dmead says: Here on the moon, our weekends are so advanced they encompass the entire week
23:40:16 <lambdabot> chrisdone says: “monads are like a finger pointing away to the moon. *smack* don't look at the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory…”
23:40:22 <HackEgo> 1224) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｈｉｌａｒｉｏｕｓ
23:40:22 <lambdabot> mjard says: <sixthgear> hey mjard at 4'3" and 400 lbs, your height-weight ratio should make you pretty close to spherical?! / <mjard> that's how I roll
23:40:55 <moon_> [s]thats sad, a wrong bot situation. sad[/s] lol
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00:47:25 <lambdabot> CYUL 112300Z 22004G16KT 15SM FEW050TCU BKN250 31/20 A2989 RMK TCU1CI7 TCU TR SLP121 DENSITY ALT 1900FT
00:48:12 * boily does a rain dance. «Awéye! Mouille!»
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01:12:17 <lambdabot> CYUL 120000Z 25002KT 15SM FEW040CB FEW160 BKN250 29/20 A2988 RMK CB1AC1CI7 CB TR AC TR CB TOP SE SLP119 DENSITY ALT 1800FT
01:12:40 * boily dons pompoms and dances some more
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01:33:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MiniStringFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49119 * Darkrifts * (+175) Created page with "I believe this should be a joke language, since it seems to be on par with [[Deadfish]] ~~~~"
01:35:56 <boily> Deadfish ain't no joke!
01:36:43 <boily> how does one make somebody else join an IRC chännel? can we track their IP down, remote into their machine, install and launch a bootstrapped client that automatically joins them here?
01:37:24 <alercah> boily: that's called a botnet
01:37:56 <boily> alercahello. right.
01:39:00 <boily> fizzie: STILL NO FUNGOT! I AM FEELING DISPOSSESSED! EMOTIONS ARE FLOODING OVER ME! WELL, NOT QUITE FLOODING, JUST HUMIDIFYING ME! METAPHORICALLY! LIKE, YOU KNOW, ASTRAL AURA DAMPENING, DUDE!
01:39:35 <boily> (hellorcah? allorcah? alercahello?)
01:40:47 <lambdabot> KBOS 112354Z 23012G20KT 190V250 10SM FEW050 BKN230 32/24 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP137 T03170239 10356 20317 53004
01:40:52 <fizzie> It's too hot for fungot.
01:41:16 <fizzie> Although doesn't make much sense otherwise, since fungot's not *here*.
01:41:56 <boily> wait. you're in Boston now?
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01:42:21 <fungot> boily: it might have been my primary hacking area anyways)
01:42:28 <fizzie> And Cambridge, actually.
01:42:46 <boily> do you like it there? does Quincy Market still exist?
01:43:34 <fizzie> I haven't managed to see much of it yet, been mostly confined to the hotel-office axis.
01:43:42 <fizzie> And the hotel's across the street from the office.
01:43:57 <fizzie> I'll have a free Saturday here though.
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02:52:19 <moon_> i personally think my bot has a good sqrt of 2 answer
02:52:20 <moon_> 1.414213562373095048801688724209698078569671875376948073176679737990732478462107038850387 5343276415727350138462309122970249248361
02:55:01 <lifthrasiir> a square of that number is 2 + 1.2487297240530495370686529703... * 10^-127, so it is probably accurate
03:00:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49120&oldid=49111 * Oerjan * (+0) deorr
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03:11:12 <oerjan> @tell gamemanj <gamemanj> ...you'd have thought one of those characters would have triggered a bot... <-- yes. but not in that order hth
03:13:48 <HackEgo> 174) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
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03:20:06 <orin> I'm making changes to my font so that e.g. ㎆ won't look exatly like MB
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05:29:27 <oerjan> @tell boily i suspect gamemanj's "error" isn't one (those are all legal nick chars and, well, it's oren), although the original seems to have been expunged from HackEgo.
05:32:02 <oerjan> `` hog quotes | grep 'being hilarious'
05:32:15 <oerjan> `` hog quotes | grep 'being hilarious'
05:32:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hoq: not found
05:32:29 <HackEgo> <oerjan> addquote <Ken M> If we don\'t study the mistakes of the future we\'re doomed to repeat them for the first time :( \ <boily> addquote <izabera> if someone can, they\'re in this chan \ <int-e> addquote <fungot> int-e: all right...ill try not to think about your mind. best of luck with it \ <oerjan> addquote <fizzie> AIUI, one of the senio
05:33:01 <oerjan> `` hog quotes | grep 'hilarious'
05:33:09 <HackEgo> hg log --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
05:33:44 <oerjan> `` rgrep hilarious wisdom
05:34:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/quotes
05:35:12 <oerjan> @tell boily oops, never mind, it's weirdly formatted otherwise, so grep doesn't find it
05:35:35 <oerjan> `quote h.*i.*l.*a.*r.*i.*o.*u.*s
05:35:36 <HackEgo> 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 20) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset s
05:36:02 <oerjan> hm something tells me that's too easy to match :P
05:36:12 <HackEgo> 1224) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｈｉｌａｒｉｏｕｓ
05:37:12 <oerjan> @tell boily given this, you might want to double check hth
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06:23:00 <oerjan> on afterthought, i think what happened was gamemanj looked at 1224 in the wisdom.pdf and didn't realize it was supposed to look that weird.
06:23:35 <oerjan> and then i blathered because i cannot manage to read to the end of the logs.
06:24:02 <quintopia> yes this seems to be a recurring issue with you
06:27:04 <quintopia> heres an interesting priblem for you: if you have twenty items and can sort five of them at a time, what is the smallest number of five-item sorts needed to do the job and what sequence of sorts will do it?
06:33:40 <oerjan> s/interesting/too complicated/
06:35:48 <quintopia> the "how many" part is easy enough. the sequence is tricky
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08:36:02 <hppavilion[1]> The weird thing about my headphones is that it feels like one of the earpieces is completely silent
08:36:10 <int-e> quintopia: 9 is a lower bound, and you're suggesting that it's tight?
08:36:30 <hppavilion[1]> Because, due to clever positioning of everything I listen to, it sounds like the noise that is coming from the right one is /inside/ my head
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09:36:55 <izabera> what's a database with super low memory footprint?
09:37:00 <izabera> i don't need advanced features
09:38:57 <izabera> it should keep as little data as possible in memory and store the rest on disk
09:39:54 <izabera> features i need are literally only to set a value for a given key, and to retrieve a value based on its key
09:42:16 <izabera> values are memory blobs of varying size, keys are 6 character alphanumeric strings
09:42:57 <izabera> i guess i can write this thing myself
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10:48:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49121&oldid=49113 * 86.146.9.60 * (-3) /* Date */
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12:17:45 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 48m 18s ago: i suspect gamemanj's "error" isn't one (those are all legal nick chars and, well, it's oren), although the original seems to have been expunged from HackEgo.
12:17:46 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 42m 33s ago: oops, never mind, it's weirdly formatted otherwise, so grep doesn't find it
12:17:46 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 40m 33s ago: given this, you might want to double check hth
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12:29:59 <fizzie> izabera: dbm's modern successors (GDBM & friends) would be the traditional choice for that sort of thing, though I don't know how they compare wrt. *super*-low memory footprint.
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12:53:24 <fizzie> izabera: Although I guess you could also just use a directory.
12:54:12 <izabera> thanks for your suggestion
12:57:58 <fizzie> Aside: traditional dbm tends to have fixed size limits for the values (in the "few kilobytes" ballpark), but at least GDBM doesn't. Although I've only really interfaced with these things via Perl's AnyDBM_File.
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14:28:47 <izabera> http://www.airguitarworldchampionships.com/ next week
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14:32:05 <FireFly> air guitar.. that's the one in Oulu, I think?
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15:06:14 <izabera> how does one bruteforce this? http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/89541/14676
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15:10:58 <FireFly> izabera: write a number of expressions with a few constants, bruteforce the constants for each expression?
15:11:25 <FireFly> so like (x ^ A) * B (and similarly for other expressions of x involving up to two constants)
15:11:50 <izabera> how did they come up with xor and multiply?
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15:13:11 <FireFly> I don't know, it's what I would do
15:14:21 <FireFly> you could make a comment and ask them to elaborate on how the expression was bruteforced
15:14:49 <izabera> i run out of comments long ago
15:15:16 <myname> i do think finding ^ and * to use that for sorting is reasonable
15:15:47 <myname> 12 values out of 2^8 is reasonable
15:16:24 <myname> you'd be able to do that for practically any set of 12 strings that are different enough
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16:20:13 <orin> the next version of my font will include playing cards
16:20:34 <orin> because I wanted to do more astral plane stuff
16:23:48 <orin> ooh, what if we had a computer that had playing cards instead of bytes, and five card "words"
16:24:49 <orin> actually, mever mind that. suppose a computer stored its state as a deck of cards. How big is that state, in bits?
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16:25:14 <orin> > log2(factorial(52))
16:25:15 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘log’ (imported from Prelude)Not in scope: ‘factorial’
16:26:27 <orin> > add(log([1 .. 52]))/log(2)
16:26:28 <lambdabot> ‘and’ (imported from Data.List), ‘odd’ (imported from Prelude)
16:26:40 <orin> > sum(log([1 .. 52]))/log(2)
16:26:42 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M73354184593098767806440’
16:26:42 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
16:27:00 <orin> > sum(log([1.0 .. 52.0]))/log(2.0)
16:27:01 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M54011832658531067726463’
16:27:01 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
16:27:08 <orin> > sum(log([1 .. 52]))/log(2.0)
16:27:09 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M47258435328389861236473’
16:27:09 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
16:27:41 <orin> > sum(map(log,[1 .. 52])))/log(2.0)
16:27:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: parse error on input ‘)’
16:27:53 <orin> > sum(map(log,[1 .. 52]))/log(2.0)
16:27:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘a0 -> b’
16:27:54 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘(Double -> Double, [Integer])’
16:27:54 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘map’, namely ‘(log, [1 .. 52])’
16:28:04 <izabera> i think you're just proving how drunk you are
16:28:10 <orin> > sum(map(log [1 .. 52]))/log(2.0)
16:28:11 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘a0 -> b’ with actual type ‘[Integer]’
16:28:11 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘log’, namely ‘[1 .. 52]’
16:28:11 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘map’, namely ‘(log [1 .. 52])’
16:28:32 <orin> izabera: I'm just trying to bruteforce haskell syntax again
16:29:23 <orin> > (map log [1 .. 52])
16:29:25 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.6931471805599453,1.0986122886681098,1.3862943611198906,1.609437912434...
16:29:28 <alercah> would you like assistance?
16:29:36 <orin> > sum(map log [1 .. 52])
16:29:59 <orin> > (sum(map log [1 .. 52]))/(log 2)
16:30:09 <alercah> why are you trying to calculate the log base 2 of a deck of cards?
16:30:39 <orin> alercah: to find out how many bits it takes to store a randomly ordered deck
16:31:10 <int-e> > log (product [1..52])/log 2
16:31:36 <orin> the answer being, not enough to make a FSM based on said state interesting enough
16:32:07 <int-e> (double is large enough for the product)
16:32:51 <orin> wow, I would'nt have expected that. doubles are biiig
16:34:21 <orin> int-e: so I just found out that f(a,b) calls f with the tuple a,b?
16:35:26 <orin> apparently the correct mehtod to bind f with its arguments within an expression is (f a b) like in lisp
16:36:37 <orin> haskell seems more related to lisp than to algol
16:36:46 <HackEgo> olist 1048: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:39:46 <int-e> indeed Haskell may be less unrelated to lisp than to algol
16:40:39 <alercah> orin: doubles are exponential, remember
16:41:23 <alercah> they can store really big and really small numbers. Just don't mix
16:41:37 <orin> alercah: hmm, so the double can represent it because 225 fits into a double's exponent field?
16:41:49 <int-e> > (2^1023 :: Double, 2^1024 :: Double)
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17:06:16 <orin> Nigel Farage grew a moustache!
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17:15:41 <orin> what new plan does this moustachiod politician have?!
17:16:49 <gamemanj> That's his evil doppleganger from another universe
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17:46:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49122&oldid=46125 * CodeMaster111 * (+235)
17:46:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49123&oldid=49122 * CodeMaster111 * (+2)
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18:51:52 <orin> Hmm, my poll averaging shows a very different result from the poll averaging the media is using
18:52:40 <orin> it shows turmp support holding steady at 41% about, while clinton declined over the lat week
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18:53:28 <orin> but is still ahead by 3-4%
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18:56:07 <orin> The poll averages are based on when the poll was released I think, while my poll averages are based on when the polls were conducted
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19:21:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49124&oldid=49123 * Fizzie * (-2) Fix those links (but the "Information" heading is still very vague)
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20:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, it's impossible to study the optimal Star Wars viewing order in an ethical way
20:46:57 <hppavilion[1]> Because to compare episodic and release orders, you have to have someone actually watch it in episodic order
20:51:10 <gamemanj> who needs ethics when you're a mad scientist
20:51:47 <gamemanj> also tell whoever wrote `? gamemanj that "Insert Name Here" was a joke and wasn't to be taken seriously
20:55:56 <HackEgo> gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here.
20:59:32 <int-e> gamemanj: sounds like a perfect wisdom entry then
20:59:42 <int-e> (a joke that could be taken seriously)
21:16:42 <int-e> Also I had to inquire about the meaning of "I. N." once before... it's not entirely obvious what it stands for, I think.
21:17:19 <gamemanj> Well, I said "Insert Name Here", then...
21:18:41 <gamemanj> then whoever it was (I vaguely recall the name "oren", but I could be wrong) wrote "I. N. Here", presumably so it sounded like "the mad scientist in here"
21:19:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `culprits: not found
21:21:01 <int-e> `` echo *gamemanj*
21:21:19 <int-e> `` cwlprits gamemanj # presumably?
21:21:45 <gamemanj> oren, if you are reading this, sorry I got you confused with oerjan.
21:21:47 <int-e> the u/w is a bit too subtle.
21:22:09 <gamemanj> oerjan, if you are reading this, well done, your joke made it into wisdom.pdf.
21:22:44 <gamemanj> Additional note. oerjan is apparently... NOT reading this.
21:23:01 <gamemanj> @tell oerjan well done, your joke made it into wisdom.pdf.
21:23:13 <int-e> in http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.08.12
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21:24:07 * gamemanj wonders what this "error" is about
21:24:39 * int-e wonders what that "error" is about
21:25:27 <gamemanj> the "wisdom.pdf error" I mentioned to boily
21:28:14 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/Screenshot_2016-08-12_21-26-44.png
21:28:42 <gamemanj> I'm pretty sure the font isn't intentionally different, in any case
21:29:00 <int-e> \item \verb!<{\[oren]|}>! \scalebox{1.2}[1]{zzo38:it will cause problems by being hilarious}
21:29:10 <int-e> I'm pretty sure the scalebox is intentional.
21:29:23 <gamemanj> ...ok, you have the TeX source, TeX source trumps screenshot.
21:29:59 <HackEgo> 1224) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｈｉｌａｒｉｏｕｓ
21:30:47 <gamemanj> New question: why on the planet would anyone choose to write that way...
21:31:18 <int-e> because it fits better with kanji
21:31:39 <HackEgo> [U+FF57 FULLWIDTH LATIN SMALL LETTER W]
21:32:10 <gamemanj> I'm not seeing how it fits better...
21:32:24 <gamemanj> like, I guess it makes them aligned with character cells?
21:33:16 <int-e> I'm not 100% sure. I'm used to narrow characters, not square ones.
21:48:08 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
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21:51:24 <gamemanj> Os was defined by the committee of people interested in shutting up engineers to define the status on P = NP by simply abstracting it so conversation did not matter even if it is true or false
21:52:07 <gamemanj> other things invented by the committee of people interested in shutting up engineers: Pi
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21:53:20 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, if we're assuming that, given 4 teams A, B, C, D where A plays B to yield J and C plays D to yield K, then J plays K to yield V
21:54:30 <hppavilion[1]> If we're using that logic (which is obviously flawed due to rock-paper-scissors-style games)
21:55:23 <hppavilion[1]> We put the teams in an order in a 1-dimensional list (presumably either at random or based on previous metrics)
21:55:43 <hppavilion[1]> We call one team L, and it is initially the first team in the list
21:56:34 <hppavilion[1]> Then, repeating until the list is null, pop a team and play it against L. The winner is saved as L and the loser is discarded
21:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> Once the list is null, L is the overall victor of the tournament
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21:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> (essentially, if we don't require that the participating teams be partially ordered- which we clearly don't due to bracket tournaments- then we can do this MUCH more efficiently)
22:04:57 <gamemanj> The team at the top of the list?
22:05:06 <gamemanj> Also, this means all teams have to play against L.
22:05:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Andrew Melrose]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49125 * Andrew Melrose * (+265) About Andrew Melrose
22:05:45 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_Hill_%28game%29
22:05:57 <gamemanj> On the one hand, this means a minimal number of matches are played - on the other, can this be parallelized?
22:06:41 <int-e> the bracket plays the same number of games... it *is* the parallelized version
22:07:14 <int-e> every game eliminates one player or team after all, so you need n-1 games to get from n to 1.
22:09:36 <int-e> (bonus points if you find the connection to binary trees, and the number of their leafs and internal nodes)
22:14:48 <gamemanj> ...so basically, your system is a step backwards unless you only have one playfield.
22:14:57 <gamemanj> There is also the secondary issue of wear levelling.
22:15:08 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I don't think that the bracket plays less games...
22:15:26 <gamemanj> For the defeater of L, this will be their first game.
22:15:46 <gamemanj> The bracket doesn't play less games, but it doesn't play more either because each bracket eliminates a team.
22:15:51 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yeah, but since when has real-world stuff mattered to the NFL or FIFA or the NBA
22:16:15 <hppavilion[1]> This system plays n-1 games, where n is the number of teams...
22:16:59 <hppavilion[1]> In a bracket... the winning team must play all the way to the bottom... but there are less steps...
22:17:23 <hppavilion[1]> If we have 8 teams, then 7 games are played in a season
22:17:33 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: It'd be easiest with an example, I think
22:17:44 <gamemanj> The brackets would be, as an example, [[A,B],[C,D]]
22:17:54 <gamemanj> A and B fight, C and D fight in parallel.
22:18:05 <gamemanj> The result of these two is A* and B*.
22:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> Using a bracket... each of the 8 teams is paired with another, so 4 games are played in the first round... then 2 in the next... then the finals... so 7
22:18:17 <gamemanj> A* and B* are equally worn out.
22:18:33 <gamemanj> You then have [A*, B*], and the game is resolved.
22:18:52 <gamemanj> In your system, we start with [A, B], as per usual.
22:19:09 <gamemanj> This is because then they go on, but worn down,
22:19:28 <gamemanj> So then [A-, C] happens ('-' because A is now worn down and C isn't)
22:19:50 <gamemanj> And thus who wins is highly order-dependant.
22:20:07 <gamemanj> Either way, 3 games are played.
22:20:20 <hppavilion[1]> But brackets are still broken because of non-transitive winning
22:20:44 <gamemanj> I suppose. It's less broken than sending a worn out football team against a completely fresh one, though.
22:20:52 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Also, I think we assume that there's time between games
22:21:13 <gamemanj> If we eliminate the possibility of team morale and team weardown, then yes, the "list" approach is the best.
22:21:25 <gamemanj> (Though it cannot be parallelized as such without changing it intrinsically.)
22:21:37 <hppavilion[1]> Yes it is, unless you can parallelize, but you can't because all games have to be shown
22:22:02 <hppavilion[1]> (if you play multiple bracket games at once, then your ratings go down because you can't watch multiple games simultaneously)
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23:06:54 <hppavilion[1]> "You have been found guilty of conspiring to solicit the incitement of attempted cheque fraud. The penalty is death." -- a real sentence that could technically said by a judge under US law, assuming that certain laws are interpreted in an uncommon (but still acceptable) way
23:08:07 <hppavilion[1]> Because conspiring to commit a crime, soliciting a crime, inciting a crime, and attempting a crime are all the same level as the crime (so paying a hitman is still a felony. Attempts may be treated less badly, but they're still felonies)
23:08:58 <hppavilion[1]> And under the Felony-Murder rule, if you kill someone (whether or not you intend to) in the process of committing a crime, that is counted as premeditated murder (though the common interpretation requires that the crime be violent- but it isn't shared by everyone)
23:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> So if, by conspiring to solicit the incitement of attempted cheque fraud, a person dies (in this case, we're assuming it's by the cheque fraud, not by the conspiring), you can be held liable
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23:57:55 <lambdabot> gamemanj said 2h 34m 53s ago: well done, your joke made it into wisdom.pdf.
23:58:19 <oerjan> boily: i am confused. did it bypass HackEgo?
23:58:57 <oerjan> in that case, i may have to file a DMCA hth
23:59:26 <boily> hellørjan. which joke? which bypass? which DMCA?
23:59:45 <oerjan> boily: see the message
00:01:55 * boily can't remember if he has seen the message...
00:02:22 <oerjan> the one i got right above hth
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00:04:04 <oerjan> maybe gamemanj just observed it happening. in a quantum way.
00:19:36 <oerjan> <izabera> i think you're just proving how drunk you are <-- looks plausible
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00:24:52 * boily is lightly swatten
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00:34:23 <oerjan> <orin> apparently the correct mehtod to bind f with its arguments within an expression is (f a b) like in lisp <-- well yeah, except the parentheses aren't always necessary.
00:35:04 <oerjan> > map sin [1,2] ++ map cos [3,4]
00:35:06 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘Data.List.map’,
00:35:06 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Data.List’ at /tmp/mueval2145174...
00:35:17 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘Data.List.map’,
00:35:17 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Data.List’ at /home/lambda/.lambdabot/State/L.hs:99:1-16
00:35:31 <oerjan> > map sin [1,2] ++ map cos [3,4]
00:35:32 <lambdabot> [0.8414709848078965,0.9092974268256817,-0.9899924966004454,-0.6536436208636119]
00:37:08 <orin> `quote '\oren\'
00:37:13 <orin> `` quote '\oren\'
00:37:27 <orin> `quote \\oren\
00:37:29 <orin> `quote \\oren\\
00:37:30 <HackEgo> 1257) <\oren\> also the letter omega is now known as wubbleyou <\oren\> it's a cuddly doubleyou \ 1260) <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: If I were me, I wouldn't even let you be a /passenger/ on a /normal/ airplane \ 1261) <\oren\> the upside down command module does mean that the pilot can see the ground while landing \ 1262) <\oren\> scientists can appar
00:38:48 <HackEgo> 1262) <\oren\> scientists can apparently research things even while rotating 30 times a minute
00:39:39 <oerjan> pretty sure 1261 and 1262 are KSP
00:39:49 <oerjan> i seem to recall the original
00:44:11 <orin> `` quote '\\oren\\' | sed -e 's/).*//'
00:44:12 <HackEgo> 1257 \ 1260 \ 1261 \ 1262 \ 1266
00:44:25 <HackEgo> 1266) <\oren\> i don't actually knwo the details, but i want those responsible, whoever they were to be punished
00:45:13 <orin> `` quote 'hppavilion' | sed -e 's/).*//'
00:45:22 <orin> `` quote '\\oren\\'
00:45:23 <HackEgo> 1257) <\oren\> also the letter omega is now known as wubbleyou <\oren\> it's a cuddly doubleyou \ 1260) <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: If I were me, I wouldn't even let you be a /passenger/ on a /normal/ airplane \ 1261) <\oren\> the upside down command module does mean that the pilot can see the ground while landing \ 1262) <\oren\> scientists can appar
00:45:28 <orin> `` quote 'hppavilion'
00:45:29 <HackEgo> 1242) <ais523> hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there \ 1253) <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang \ 1254) <h
00:45:50 <HackEgo> orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
00:46:22 <HackEgo> 1253) <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang
00:46:33 <HackEgo> 1254) <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's sort of like the principal, as far as I know. <hppavilion[1]> Except It only prints "<N> BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL!" Counting down from 99 to 0. With no line breaks.
00:46:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.32496
00:46:53 <HackEgo> 1260) <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: If I were me, I wouldn't even let you be a /passenger/ on a /normal/ airplane
00:46:54 <myname> what's the joke on 1253?
00:47:10 <boily> wait. we have a kenm quote?
00:47:26 <nortti> `run cat $(which pastequotes)
00:47:27 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" ]; then quote "$1"; else allquotes; fi | paste
00:47:47 <nortti> `run cat $(which allquotes)
00:47:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes
00:48:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
00:48:44 <orin> `quote tricycle
00:48:45 <HackEgo> 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
00:49:12 <orin> probably the chrono trigger mode
00:49:43 <HackEgo> 25) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
00:51:18 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I'm not sure you can really incite an attempted crime.
00:51:33 <tswett> Inciting someone to attempt to commit a crime is inciting them to commit that crime.
00:52:05 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Unless you incite them with the full knowledge that they can't actually accomplish it
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00:52:18 <tswett> Hmm, I think you have a point.
00:52:35 <tswett> That reminds me of a stupid legal scenario I came up with one day.
00:54:08 <tswett> It is winter, and there is a pond which is frozen over. The ice on the pond is thin, and any reasonable person would know that the ice is thin and that it would be unacceptably dangerous to walk out onto the ice.
00:55:01 <HackEgo> 42) <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
00:55:04 <tswett> There is a person who unreasonably believes that it would be safe to walk on the ice.
00:55:42 <tswett> So the person walks out onto the ice, and the ice breaks, plunging the person into the freezing cold water.
00:56:11 <orin> the context is porbably quote 52
00:56:17 <HackEgo> 52) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
00:56:29 <tswett> At this point, the person notices a branch which they had not seen before, which is lying on top of the ice.
00:56:40 <oerjan> orin: hardly. quotes are usually chronological and rarely that close in time.
00:56:54 <tswett> The person could grab onto the branch and use it to pull themself out of the ice.
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00:57:08 <tswett> Meanwhile, you have been standing by the pond and you've witnessed all of this.
00:57:17 <tswett> For no reason, you grab the branch and pull it out of the person's reach.
00:57:25 <orin> well the point is that the context of both those quotes is japanese porn
00:57:45 <tswett> The person is thus unable to escape from the ice, and freezes to death.
00:57:58 <tswett> So the question is: have you murdered that person?
00:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> Barring extenuating circumstances, such as you pulling the branch out of their reach into the reach of someone else
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01:00:48 <hppavilion[1]> @tell ais523 I am completely mystified. You have succeeded.
01:01:17 <tswett> What if you're out gathering firewood, and that branch is the only viable firewood in sight?
01:01:42 <tswett> And you're really hungry and you want to just get some firewood already so you can go home and eat as soon as possible?
01:02:56 <oerjan> that somehow reminds me of that shipwreck cannibalism case i saw on wikipedia.
01:03:34 <oerjan> where the conclusion was basically, that killing someone is murder even if it will prevent everyone else from starving to death.
01:04:58 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dudley_and_Stephens
01:05:03 <boily> are there quotes that refer to future quotes?
01:05:31 <oerjan> boily: there may be quotes added out of order, but i don't recall anything like that.
01:06:38 <oerjan> or, as the article says, "necessity is not a defence to a charge of murder".
01:06:48 <HackEgo> 105) <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
01:07:09 <oerjan> which is pretty relevant to tswett's original question.
01:07:13 <boily> hppavellon[1]. you never met oklopol, didn't you?
01:07:35 <oerjan> a clear case of oklopol, that.
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01:08:12 <oerjan> he may have met one of his rare recent alternate nick visits.
01:09:34 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Quick, say something that references a future quote
01:10:16 <HackEgo> 33) <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective \ 59) <oklofok> i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program \ 86) <oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster. \ 109) <fungot>
01:10:37 <HackEgo> 86) <oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster. \ 145) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 246) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O <Gregor> A small bene
01:11:12 <HackEgo> 863) <Bike> i don't even know anything about feather and i'm getting sick of the time travel jokes \ 894) <ais523> you can define Feather as "Smalltalk done right" if you want to confuse people into wondering why that would involve time travel stuff and all that
01:11:44 <boily> hppavilion[1]: best way to delinearize time is to invoke fungot.
01:11:44 <fungot> boily: gauche is obviously broken then. you're the artist, or you could catch the exception
01:12:28 <boily> can fungot invoke me?
01:12:29 <fungot> boily: i didn't imply ' bitwise' from ' /usr/ ports/ net/ openbsd, bsd/ os, look at the metadata and use it pervasively throughout the curricula, but also blurred vision
01:12:44 <boily> fungot: no, my vision's perfectly fine hth
01:12:45 <fungot> boily: got new mail: http://lists.r6rs.org/ pipermail/ python-list/ 2003-october/ 186473.html google search
01:12:47 <hppavilion[1]> How much must one use IRC before they start dreaming in terminal...
01:13:37 <boily> hppavilion[1]: no, I still have perfectly clear vision hthth
01:13:40 <moon_> <hbot> 3.141592652582646125206037179644022371557877983160126149695135327918621058849781011234089 2609570395550671346460285442982415593446
01:13:46 <moon_> it has a good approximation
01:14:53 <HackEgo> 118) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
01:16:17 <HackEgo> 122) <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
01:16:43 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
01:16:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:17:02 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
01:17:09 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
01:17:18 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
01:17:26 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: yes i'm like every time a plane would fly over we have a computer
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01:19:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm guessing ct, it's an old style that looks like that.
01:20:12 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
01:20:21 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: but, we are far outnumbered! me saw! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
01:20:30 <oerjan> although usually with more exclamation points than question marks
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01:20:41 <boily> speaking of ct, I had my first scan ever happen to me the other week. too bad I forgot about asking if I could keep a copy of the data :/
01:21:20 <oerjan> . o O ( he had to have his head examined )
01:22:35 <oerjan> fungot: how's the sword stopping going?
01:22:36 <fungot> oerjan: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
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01:23:55 <oerjan> boily: hope it's not too serious
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01:26:02 <boily> oerjan: just had recurring headaches and dizziness. they scanned me just to make sure there was nothing wrong (there's effectively nothing), and prescribed me enough tylenols for the next three generations.
01:27:34 <boily> nothing to be worried about. eat more proteins, drink water, acetaminophen and wait a month.
01:31:05 <boily> uhm, just to be sure, no hypochondriacs in these here fine chännel, eh?
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01:38:53 * boily pokes moonythedwarf_ in the duplicate bits
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02:00:24 <oerjan> boily: i'm sure my chondriac is very hypo, i think i can feel it aching hth
02:00:35 <orin> Using my new, better method, I made a polling average of the election
02:00:46 <orin> http://www.orenwatson.be/polls.htm
02:01:55 <orin> http://www.orenwatson.be/polls.c.htm
02:01:59 <orin> http://www.orenwatson.be/polls.txt.htm
02:08:23 <oerjan> @tell gamemanj <gamemanj> also tell whoever wrote `? gamemanj that "Insert Name Here" was a joke and wasn't to be taken seriously <-- your point twh?
02:08:56 <oerjan> boily: finally i got to the explanatory part of the logs.
02:11:48 <oerjan> @tell gamemanj <gamemanj> then whoever it was (I vaguely recall the name "oren", but I could be wrong) wrote "I. N. Here", presumably so it sounded like "the mad scientist in here" <-- i think that's overthinking it hth
02:13:07 <boily> I am not a mad scientist, I'm only impersonating one. I am sane.
02:13:45 <boily> (when doing debug stuff with our PDF generation code, I have a nice logo for "Evil Mad Dentist Laboratory" to put in the headers.)
02:13:56 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> the u/w is a bit too subtle. <-- you can still use wisdom/ although we might yell at you hth
02:15:02 <oerjan> boily: is that a backronym of the actual one twh
02:16:56 <boily> no, I don't retracronymify initialisms hth
02:18:52 <oerjan> backronyms of initialisms lack yoghurt
02:19:01 <oerjan> (my mind drew a blank there)
02:19:41 <boily> I like yoghurt. a great dollop of it on your cereals in the morning is the best.
02:23:44 <oerjan> @tell gamemanj <gamemanj> it's for groups of groups <-- now you're overthinking in the wrong direction hth
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03:09:18 <orin> what happened on july 24
03:10:05 <orin> that makes sense
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03:35:54 <pikhq> There was also a *lot* of instances of Trump being a public idiot starting about then.
03:52:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kiwitrader * New user account
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03:59:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Kiwitrader]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49126 * Kiwitrader * (+90) Created page with "Kiwitrader has written two esolangs: Topaz W-INTERCAL links: none now will update soon"
04:01:24 <moon_> channel is VERY dead
04:03:07 <oerjan> very faux spammer nickname on that one
04:03:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: The night of the living channel | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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04:25:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Topaz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49127 * Kiwitrader * (+823) Created page with "Topaz is an esoteric programming language created by ~~~~ its syntax is relatively simple: every program starts with main function declaration: main { ; code } endwi..."
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04:32:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[W-INTERCAL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49128 * Kiwitrader * (+626) Created page with "W-INTERCAL is a version of intercal made by ~~~~ It is recommended that novice programmers learn this rather than INTERCAL. Syntax: if you definitely want the interpreter t..."
04:32:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[W-INTERCAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49129&oldid=49128 * Kiwitrader * (+2)
04:37:51 <orin> pikhq: that explians why trump wnt down as well as clinton going up
04:38:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's just the HackEgo link not doing the expansion for some reason.
04:38:36 <zgrep> Huh. Thought bubble notation has crept its way into here. Or did it come from here.
04:38:59 <orin> . o O (I first saw it here)
04:39:46 <oerjan> . o O ( you people are missing spaces )
04:40:37 * oerjan swats hppuvilion[1] -----###
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04:41:40 <orin> hppavilion[1]: ITYM harakiri
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04:43:42 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: "Harukiri" would be "cutting spring".
04:43:50 <pikhq> Spelling is important.
04:45:03 <pikhq> While "harakiri" is, well, harakiri. Or seppuku. (腹切り, 切腹)
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04:46:31 <oerjan> google chose a weird reading of 腹切り, i thought orin was making a pun on fungible.
04:50:52 <quintopia> so apparently its been a busy night here?
04:58:53 <quintopia> just a brief attempt to reimplement the voight-kampff test disguised as an ethical question
05:06:53 <oerjan> hey, i linked to relevant precedent tsh
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05:15:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'tsh': tsh seems helpful
05:15:55 <orin> that should help
05:16:18 <oerjan> in the words of Jim from Darths & Droids: ooh, that's even better!
05:16:25 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: unterminated `s' command \ wisdom/tsh//tsh seems helpful
05:16:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/tsh//tsh seems hurtful
05:17:06 <shachaf> I should finish reading D&D
05:17:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/tsh//tsh sounds hurtful
05:18:29 <oerjan> `sedlast skur.*korrendousk
05:18:31 <HackEgo> wisdom/tsh//tsh sounds horrendous
05:19:23 <orin> um... why are you speaking alien to hackego, and why does he seem to understand you?
05:21:07 <oerjan> orin: skkntrisqastvsk hth
05:21:43 <oerjan> shockingly, we may not have a wisdom for it?
05:23:29 <oerjan> also, it's ais523 who is an alien, i thought that was well established.
05:25:33 <oerjan> yep. the rest are zombies, artificial intelligences, disembodied ghosts on the internet or mutant carnivorous plants hth
05:25:54 <oerjan> there may also be one dog, but we're not sure of it.
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06:36:49 <hppavilion[1]> "Blood is thicker than water, but have you /seen/ oil!?"
06:37:18 <izabera> and have you seen concrete?
06:39:43 <oerjan> have you seen neutronium?
06:53:15 <zzo38> Is apostasy is not apostasy?
06:53:57 <hppavilion[1]> concrete is a solid and neutronium is a reality-breaker
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07:31:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: diamond, inside jupiter hth
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07:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> I've never seen a superhero with the ability to combine other people
07:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> Another interesting superpower: Sort of like Astral Projection, but with the added capability to then bring your body to you
08:12:35 <hppavilion[1]> Some people subscribe to the Fate view, which says that everything that ever happens happens because of some sort of orchestrated cosmic symphony
08:12:56 <hppavilion[1]> It says everything happens for a reason (which is pleasant), but we don't have free will (which makes life hard)
08:13:47 <hppavilion[1]> Other people say that the way the universe goes is up for us to decide, which says that we choose our own paths and those who do well did so because they earned it and a guilty criminal could have /not/ done it, so it's their fault.
08:14:04 <hppavilion[1]> Free will is inspiring... but it also requires that nothing happen for a reason, which makes it sad when bad things happen
08:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> The human brain is largely random and impossible to predict, but ultimately has no meaningful form of free will because some actions are determinant and others are random, but none are controlled by some glorious, unified higher entity
08:15:15 <hppavilion[1]> Which gives the ultimate view that humans don't have free will AND it's all meaningless
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13:07:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49130 * Andrew Melrose * (+2127) Created Unfuck page
13:12:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49131&oldid=49120 * Andrew Melrose * (+13) Added Unfuck to Language list
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13:34:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[W-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49132&oldid=49129 * Kiwitrader * (+764)
13:39:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[W-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49133&oldid=49132 * Kiwitrader * (+17454)
13:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[W-INTERCAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49134&oldid=49133 * Kiwitrader * (+88)
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13:47:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49135&oldid=49131 * Kiwitrader * (+29) Added topaz and WINTERCAL
14:19:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49136&oldid=49130 * Andrew Melrose * (+57) Edit: Clarified a sentence concerning good coding practice.
14:29:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Kiwitrader]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49137&oldid=49126 * Kiwitrader * (-23)
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17:29:26 <int-e> this CaC VM is getting worse and worse... HackEgo is so lucky in comparison
17:32:42 <izabera> and what problems are you experiencing?
17:32:50 <izabera> i got one a couple of days ago
17:33:21 <izabera> and yesterday i couldn't access it and had to reboot from the control panel
17:38:32 <int-e> izabera: it's just getting write errors on the storage device...
17:39:01 <int-e> ...periodically causing the FS to be remounted read-only, sometimes locking the VM up completely
17:40:33 <int-e> (It's one of the 512MB/10GB $35/lifetime VMs.)
17:41:08 <int-e> I actually deleted the thing and set it up again but it didn't improve... all I got out of it was a changed IP ;)
17:42:17 <izabera> how long have you been using it?
17:42:29 <int-e> yeah I paid $17.50... january 2015
17:43:21 <izabera> actually that doesn't sound too bad
17:43:24 <int-e> anyway, since my attitude was that I'd get it to see how bad it would be I wasn't unduly disappointed
17:43:48 <int-e> but it has been misbehaving for most of that time.
17:44:14 <int-e> it's been like that for ages
17:44:42 <izabera> just curious about the type of load etc
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17:45:30 <izabera> i'm currently only using it for weechat in 2 channels but i was planning to move arin.ga over there
17:45:33 <int-e> virtually no load. It has a homepage http://64.137.252.151/ and mroman's Burlesque shell.
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17:46:07 <int-e> izabera: It's a feature.
17:46:50 <int-e> I worked hard on that picture, for probably an hour in gimp! Don't dis it!!!1
17:47:10 <int-e> (these things always take longer than they should ;-) )
17:47:50 <izabera> what about that burlesque shell?
17:48:08 <int-e> @google burlesque shell
17:48:14 <lambdabot> http://yorehab.com/burlesque-shell-seat-purple/
17:48:14 <lambdabot> Title: » Burlesque Shell Seat Purple YoWorld Price Guide and YoWorld Fan Site
17:48:46 <int-e> @google brulesque programming language
17:48:52 <lambdabot> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Burlesque
17:49:01 <int-e> hmm, close enough.
17:49:38 <int-e> from there you can find http://mroman.ch/burlesque/ which has a link to the shell
17:49:58 <int-e> (and I don't give a direct link because that may change)
17:50:29 <izabera> i was assuming cac gave you an ip?
17:51:01 <int-e> and they'll give me another one if I decide to set up the VM from scratch again
17:51:34 <izabera> i thought they changed it without notice
17:51:56 <int-e> that would be interesting, but no, they have not done that yet
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17:54:11 <int-e> oh and I have a Debian system on there... it's just conceivable that it doesn't agree with VMware.
17:54:22 <int-e> But I don't really believe it.
17:55:18 <int-e> I could, perhaps, drop the errors=remount-ro flag from the fstab
18:00:12 <izabera> i got ubuntu and then used this https://github.com/drizzt/vps2arch
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18:47:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[W-INTERCAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49138&oldid=49134 * Kiwitrader * (-23)
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23:11:38 <prooftechnique> My roommate just sent http://imgur.com/KTVaVW1 to me, and I had a flashback to one of those 0 == 1 "proofs"
23:13:14 <gamemanj> Yes, there's quite clearly a five++ in there.
23:14:11 <gamemanj> @tell oerjan Yes, overthinking is something I am proud of.
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23:15:34 <int-e> gamemanj: maybe you should think on that before making such a bold claim
23:16:31 <int-e> the one you just told lambdabot to relay to oerjan
23:17:52 <int-e> I couldn't help thinking that maybe if one considers the ramifications in full detail it will turn out that overthinking is often not helpful and therefore, not something to be proud of.
23:18:13 <gamemanj> I forget to comment my code. My art... do not ask about my art. My physical strength is pretty low - I can't pull myself up onto a ledge if it's higher than my shoulders (probably if it's higher than my elbows, I need to actually write these things down.) My memory is also lacking, as suggested in that last comment.
23:18:17 <int-e> And of course I'm attracted to the circularity.
23:18:33 <gamemanj> So, tell me, int-e, what am I to be proud of but my overthinking?
23:18:44 <quintopia> prooftechnique: is that js? what even does incrementing an object mean?
23:19:18 <FireFly> the same as setting it to NaN, usually
23:19:23 <gamemanj> quintopia: The "object" is actually Number: 5, and I'm guessing there's implicit conversion.
23:19:25 <quintopia> i guess its a native number object containing the value five?
23:19:26 <prooftechnique> quintopia: It is. It coerces it to an int in that case
23:19:37 <int-e> gamemanj: oh you could start small. there's the remarkable feat of your continued existence
23:20:00 <gamemanj> Rock, you should be proud of yourself.
23:20:13 <quintopia> oh that makes sense. so five++ means five=five.intValue()+1
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23:21:48 <quintopia> and then setting properties on it coerces it back into Number?
23:22:19 <myname> there is a petition in germany to give an equal amount of male and female names to potatoes ...
23:22:57 <quintopia> prooftechnique: i meant setting the wtf of int 6
23:23:27 <zzo38> There is no integer type in JavaScript, only floating point
23:23:51 <zzo38> But in many cases is treated as an integer, and some implementations may even store them as integers too to increase speed
23:24:43 <zzo38> For example, bitwise operations will treat the numbers as signed 32-bit integers and output a signed 32-bit integer too
23:25:52 <quintopia> prooftechnique: if i ran that code and then did Number(5).wtf would it say potato
23:28:51 <quintopia> ok. so each wrapped number gets its own instance?
23:28:55 <prooftechnique> I think that would be equivalent to new Number(5).wtf, so it would give nothing
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23:29:58 <quintopia> some languages intern cache number objects for small integers. java, for instance
23:30:47 <quintopia> but then, they are essentially read-only objects if you dont do some tricky reflection
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00:57:51 <lambdabot> CYUL 132342Z 04010G30KT 280V060 4SM R06L/3000VP6000FT/D R06R/3500VP6000FT/D RA BR FEW005 BKN024 OVC040 20/19 A2975 RMK SF2SC5NS1 PRESFR SLP076 DENSITY ALT 800FT
00:58:07 <boily> RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN!
00:58:50 <oerjan> hellopia. hellonolongerboilyng.
00:59:09 <lambdabot> KBOS 132354Z 06008KT 7SM OVC007 21/19 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP129 60000 T02060189 10228 20200 55004
00:59:16 <lambdabot> ENVA 132350Z 31005KT 9999 FEW026 SCT052 10/07 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 28011KT
00:59:17 <fizzie> It was surprisingly humane today.
00:59:28 <lambdabot> gamemanj said 1h 45m 17s ago: Yes, overthinking is something I am proud of.
00:59:33 <quintopia> oerjan: you can't confirm that. it could be boiling rain
00:59:47 <oerjan> quintopia: i looked at the temperature hth
01:00:21 <quintopia> oerjan: the thermometer could be inside a box, protected from the boiling water?
01:00:46 <quintopia> we'll have to check again in a few minutes to be sure
01:01:52 <oerjan> quintopia: i think you're confusing this with the alderaan forecast hth
01:02:12 <boily> hellørjan! nolongerboily?
01:02:38 <boily> gamellomanj. did you know that oerjan is unscarable hth
01:02:59 <oerjan> um is unscarable the same as unscareable
01:03:03 <gamemanj> boily-ng. A more refined boily for a better age.
01:03:05 <boily> quinthellopia! eating is a good activity.
01:03:27 <gamemanj> (Brought to you by the developers of aircrack-ng, presumably.)
01:04:05 * boily munches on edible stuff. *munch* *munch* *munch*
01:04:38 <boily> leftovers from lunch. rice, beef, tofu and zucchini, bean sprouts and carrots.
01:04:51 <boily> no, the only green part is zucchinal hth
01:05:04 <quintopia> i had a bag of hot wings flavored pretzels. so...yeah
01:05:20 * oerjan is neither unscareable nor unscarable, but if you have to test either i prefer the former hth hth
01:05:53 <oerjan> also wiktionary doesn't think scarable exists.
01:05:58 <quintopia> unscarable doesn't sound like a real word
01:07:10 <quintopia> boily: that's it! that's the ticket! but i probably would pwn you at english scrabble, and you'd wipe the floor with me in french
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01:07:38 <oerjan> i also fail to find any real uses of "scarable" because they're swamped by either dictionary SEO or typos
01:07:57 <oerjan> (or perhaps no one's ever used it)
01:08:19 <quintopia> it's an #esoteric hapax legemenon!
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01:09:05 <oerjan> quintopia: oh, i guess the real word would be spelt unscarrable. checking...
01:09:40 <gamemanj> It's like scrabble, but you have to make anything that isn't a word in any language in the universe.
01:09:51 <gamemanj> Which makes it excessively difficult.
01:10:14 <oerjan> scarrable gives at least one genuine hit, although wiktionary still doesn't know it.
01:10:57 <oerjan> technically the hit was "un-scarrable"
01:11:09 <quintopia> nah it's easy. you just invent an alphabet on the spot, assign to them sounds that are extremely difficult to make (e.g. the sound of a baby eating a puppy as they are torn about by tidal forces inside a black hole), and string them together randomly
01:13:25 <gamemanj> quintopia: You also have to map these to English letters for reasons which should hopefully be obvious if you've ever seen a Scrabble set.
01:14:34 <quintopia> gamemanj: whoever said unscrabble involved a scrabble set?
01:14:40 <oerjan> <quintopia> itym unscarrable <-- damn i did it again.
01:14:53 <zzo38> What you need is a chess set.
01:15:16 <oerjan> <quintopia> boily: that's it! that's the ticket! but i probably would pwn you at english scrabble, and you'd wipe the floor with me in french <-- norwegian hth
01:16:02 <quintopia> oerjan: both of us cheating with a dictionary takes all the fun out of it
01:16:23 * oerjan only knows that word because of narbonic.
01:16:45 <zzo38> When I play Scrabble I always do both player will use the Scrabble dictionary
01:17:00 * quintopia .oO(it seems to take oerjan about 10 seconds per line to logread)
01:17:07 <zzo38> Time limits could help too though
01:17:08 <moon_> i made a nodejs sandbox for my bot, and its pretty strong, i was wondering if you guys would help me find some exploits so i can try to patch them
01:17:59 <quintopia> that was a thought bubble. we don't need speech bubbles since we aren't being drawn into boxes on the chat, so every other text is assumed to be speech
01:18:36 * oerjan thinks zzo38 could design a chess game isomorphic to scrabble. probably.
01:19:35 <oerjan> quintopia: my backscroll reading may not always be chronological hth
01:19:52 <quintopia> oerjan: you seem to comment on it in chronological order tho
01:20:56 <oerjan> what i mean is that sometimes, i only go back because i realize i had been skipping stuff.
01:21:20 <zzo38> moon_: You would have to be careful if you want to make a Node.js sandbox properly secure. One thing to do is to ensure that the prototype of the sandbox object is null, and don't put any other objects from the outside into the sandbox.
01:21:55 <zzo38> (But this can make it difficult to do anything meaningful, so you figure it out.....)
01:22:07 * oerjan wonders if anyone's ever made an irc client that uses speech bubbles
01:22:32 <zzo38> oerjan: I think Microsoft Comic Chat might? I don't know though
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01:23:22 <olsner> it crashes with common IRC servers (e.g. freenode), but puckipedia has a proxy to work around it
01:25:23 <zzo38> I don't know if possibly the V8 debugging interface might be usable for making a Node.js sandbox
01:25:55 <zzo38> Writing an extension in C++ might also help, if you know how to do that
01:30:33 <zzo38> One thing I don't know if it works, because I have not tried, is to create function outside of the sandbox, and then a function inside the sandbox wraps it (perhaps create a function that takes a function and returns a function, and call it) and passes only primitives between the inside and outside.
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01:33:02 <zzo38> Running sandboxed scripts in a separate process is also something that has been suggested, so you can also try that.
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01:53:41 * boily wraps himself in the tent
02:01:13 <oerjan> i don't think that was gamemanj's intent
02:02:21 <boily> off to night coma!
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02:07:29 <quintopia> this one was particularly attractive
02:07:53 * oerjan looks at quintopia suspiciously
02:08:16 * gamemanj also looks at quintopia suspiciously
02:08:37 <gamemanj> (*writes "if oerjan looks at someone suspiciously, there's usually a reason." into book*)
02:09:32 <gamemanj> maybe quintopia was referring to night coma
02:11:04 <gamemanj> well, there's an obvious solution to that
02:11:21 <gamemanj> quintopia: define "this one" in your message, "this one was particularly attractive"
02:12:42 -!- oerjan has set topic: The supercogitating channel | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
02:15:06 <quintopia> unattractive chickens don't wear garterbelts hth
02:18:33 * gamemanj underlines the line about oerjan's suspicions usually being correct
02:18:56 * gamemanj then adds an additional note in the margin: "c.KTW/SJ-night"
02:21:37 * oerjan looks at gamemanj's note suspiciously
02:27:46 <quintopia> what's the fastest way to find the smallest power of 2 greater than x?
02:29:22 <gamemanj> Depends what you're implementing it in.
02:29:23 <quintopia> i mean, would it be faster to try right shift it until i get zero? or it with a left-shifted 1 til zero? god help if its actually do a log?
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02:29:47 <gamemanj> A shift will do it. If it does it fast, is another thing entirely.
02:29:59 <gamemanj> Technically the "fastest" implementation would be dependent on value size.
02:30:23 <gamemanj> If you had 256 values, you may - or may not - find that an array is faster than doing the calculations.
02:30:24 <quintopia> oh apparently python has a .bit_length()
02:30:51 <oerjan> didn't we already establish on a previous occasion that processors have specific instructions for this hth
02:31:21 <gamemanj> oerjan: I don't know why, it's a rare - and not that slow - operation...
02:32:07 <oerjan> gamemanj: well it may be useful in code that needs to be particularly fast
02:32:22 <gamemanj> Yes, but why would someone need that operation?
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02:32:42 <oerjan> gamemanj: to implement bigints, say
02:33:00 <zzo38> Please look at information relating to TAVERN VM and tell me if it is any good and other comment such as if there is any mistake or unclear. Do you think that 32K cells (each cell stores a signed 16-bit number) is sufficient for the program code for a text adventure game and other arbitrary read-only data? (RAM, vocabulary, and most text, would be stored in separate address spaces)
02:33:00 <gamemanj> Potentially. On the other hand, how do you feed in the number to this operation?
02:33:04 <oerjan> you want to know what's the first bit you need to start working at
02:33:40 <gamemanj> zzo38: Worst case scenario, you can cheat the system, especially if the program code can read from text/vocab memory.
02:33:54 <gamemanj> zzo38: Like, write a brainfuck interpreter in program memory,
02:34:15 <gamemanj> zzo38: then put your *actual program* into a different address space.
02:34:52 <zzo38> Program code cannot read anything from text or vocab memory; it can read and write RAM, although RAM is also limited to 32K cells.
02:36:36 <zzo38> Adding an extension that would act like Z-machine's DIROUT 3 would allow reading from text memory, although another possible extension would just to allow reading text memory directly, which would be simpler and faster.
02:37:26 <zzo38> (Text memory is also limited to 32K cells, although the text is packed, and the text memory is also bankswitched, so you can store a lot of data in there.)
02:39:09 <zzo38> Adding a feature code and instruction opcode for TXT@ would allow to read the text memory; we can add this idea into the bug tracker or wiki.
02:39:24 <quintopia> how does text packing work? my best guess was always just "limiting text to a narrow range of ascii so that some bits can be discarded from each character"
02:40:02 <zzo38> You can look at the documentation if you want to know its working.
02:41:56 <zzo38> Vocabulary packing does limit text to a narrow range of ASCII though; the VOCAB.BIN lump maps vocabulary words to signed 16-bit numbers (any word not listed has a value of zero).
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03:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> Do any known people have a finite Erdos-Shusaku-Morley-Bacon number?
03:24:38 <oerjan> what are shusaku and morley again
03:25:39 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, would the existence of a Go-playing AI that plays against Shusaku make anyone able to have a Shusaku number of 1?)
03:27:32 <oerjan> how would you do that when he's been dead over a century twh
03:29:01 <oerjan> quintopia: is this another one of those voight-kampff test questions
03:30:37 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
03:30:44 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
03:32:12 <oerjan> `addquote <int-e> I couldn't help thinking that maybe if one considers the ramifications in full detail it will turn out that overthinking is often not helpful and therefore, not something to be proud of.
03:32:17 <HackEgo> 1286) <int-e> I couldn't help thinking that maybe if one considers the ramifications in full detail it will turn out that overthinking is often not helpful and therefore, not something to be proud of.
03:37:05 <oerjan> @ask myname <myname> there is a petition in germany to give an equal amount of male and female names to potatoes ... <-- does that include spelling it as Kartoffel/innen twh
03:37:57 <gamemanj> nothing wrong with overthinking
03:38:31 <HackEgo> gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here.
03:38:52 <oerjan> `learn_append gamemanj He will overthink everything except whether overthinking is wrong.
03:38:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'gamemanj': gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here. He will overthink everything except whether overthinking is wrong.
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03:39:37 <oerjan> `slwd gamemanj sb exb, exb
03:39:45 <oerjan> `slwd gamemanj//sb exb, exb
03:39:50 <HackEgo> wisdom/gamemanj//gamemanj is also the mad scientist I. N. Here. He will overthink everything, except whether overthinking is wrong.
03:40:01 <gamemanj> ...go on, explain what you are doing
03:40:13 <oerjan> i am amending your wisdom entry hth
03:40:42 <gamemanj> That's an interesting method of adding one comma...
03:42:09 <oerjan> well the alternative would be copy/pasting
03:42:28 <gamemanj> I'm kind of wondering how "sb exb, exb" works
03:42:44 <gamemanj> and if it's actually an esoteric language, like a cyclic tag system or something
03:43:02 <oerjan> the trick is that sed's s command allows almost any delimiter character, in this case b
03:44:08 * gamemanj writes "Send patch to maxpowa/Inumuta so that it interprets everything beginning with 's' as a replacement. This, of course, is simply a side effect of proper interpretation."
03:44:48 <orin> My font now has playing cards!
03:44:50 <orin> 🂠🂡🂢🂣🂤🂥🂦🂧🂨🂩🂪🂫🂬🂭🂮🂱🂲🂳🂴🂵🂶🂷🂸🂹🂺🂻🂼🂽🂾
03:44:54 <orin> 🃁🃂🃃🃄🃅🃆🃇🃈🃉🃊🃋🃌🃍🃎🃏🃑🃒🃓🃔🃕🃖🃗🃘🃙🃚🃛🃜🃝🃞🃟
03:45:45 <gamemanj> This was what I meant to copy: 🂡
03:46:13 <oerjan> gamemanj: hm i guess i forgot to ask whether you want to be assumed male, but since you didn't protest i assume that's all right.
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03:47:11 * oerjan might be overthinking that.
03:47:33 <gamemanj> oerjan: I try to catch myself when I make assumptions too (though if someone else uses a gender pronoun in reference to someone, I'll base any further communications on that)
03:47:44 <orin> I also added a bunch of those crazy Shift-JIS characters
03:48:43 <orin> ㎠㎡㎢㎣㎤㎥㎦㎧㎨㎩㎪㎫㎬㎭㎮㎯㎰㎱㎲㎳㎴㎵㎶㎷㎸㎹㎺㎻㎼㎽㎾㎿
03:48:46 <orin> ㏀㏁㏂㏃㏄㏅㏆㏇㏈㏉㏊㏋㏌㏍㏎㏏㏐㏑㏒㏓㏔㏕㏖㏗㏘㏙㏚㏛㏜㏝
03:49:25 <zzo38> I thought of a idea of new kind of format of Magic: the Gathering cards. Select a block and play block constructed, but before the game starts add a Rochester draft and then sealed, the draft/sealed consisting entirely of cards whioch are not legal in the constructed block being played (banned cards may be included in the draft/sealed).
03:50:35 <zzo38> Your constructed deck may include a 15-card sideboard. Whatever your constructed deck size is (not counting sideboard) is your minimum deck size (which may be reduced by conspiracies), and whatever your constructed sideboard includes is your minimum sideboard size.
03:51:07 * oerjan suddenly notices the "man" in gamemanj's nick
03:51:52 <zzo38> Play is then scored per-duel ante, with each card legal in the block worth 2 points, and other cards worth 1 point each, and the game worth 1 point.
03:53:38 <orin> Ok, I just noticed that I drew ㎱ as rs instead of ns. I have no idea how that happened
03:54:43 <zzo38> Conspiracies that are placed into the command zone at the beginning of the game do not count toward your minimum sideboard size.
03:55:07 <gamemanj> orin: Does your font editor allow out of bounds drawing?
03:55:47 <orin> and somtimes I have stray pixels in a character
03:56:27 <orin> I forgot to finish my program that catches stray pixels
03:57:10 <zzo38> You can add additional conventional basic lands into your deck when creating it after draft/sealed or when altering the deck by exchanging cards with sideboard, but these extra lands will be lost if they are ever placed into the sideboard.
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03:57:23 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘㏒’
03:58:17 <orin> > let ㏒=log in ㏒(2)
03:58:18 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error in let binding: missing required 'in'
03:58:48 <orin> > let ㏒=log; in ㏒(2)
03:58:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error in let binding: missing required 'in'
03:59:26 <orin> is it just me or is this let not the same as lisp let
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04:00:51 <zzo38> I don't know how is lisp let
04:02:28 <orin> > let ㏒ = log in ㏒(2)
04:02:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error in let binding: missing required 'in'
04:03:31 <orin> gamemanj: in lisp you can make a temporary variable with the let function. but haskell doesn't seem to work like that
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04:04:55 <orin> > let ㏒ = 1 in ㏒
04:04:56 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error in let binding: missing required 'in'
04:05:10 <orin> > let x = 1 in x
04:06:09 <orin> > let ㄋ = 1 in ㄋ
04:06:14 <Jafet> > let a ㏒ b = log a / log b in (㏒2) 4
04:06:43 <orin> Jafet: I see, it thinks ㏒ is a symbol?
04:06:52 <Jafet> > generalCategory '㏒'
04:07:10 <HackEgo> U+33D2 SQUARE LOG \ UTF-8: e3 8f 92 UTF-16BE: 33d2 Decimal: ㏒ \ ㏒ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <square> 006C 006F 0067
04:07:50 <Jafet> does that grow from square trees?
04:08:43 <gamemanj> yes, but they cost a lot of money to buy
04:09:08 <gamemanj> £4,480... the price started going up after Minecraft became popular
04:09:35 <gamemanj> (Note: My last two messages may have been... complete and obvious lies.)
04:12:01 <HackEgo> U+0020 SPACE \ UTF-8: 20 UTF-16BE: 0020 Decimal:   \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ \ U+33D2 SQUARE LOG \ UTF-8: e3 8f 92 UTF-16BE: 33d2 Decimal: ㏒ \ ㏒ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <square> 006C 006F 0067
04:12:40 <FreeFull> That symbol is a pain to write
04:15:07 <orin> millimetres of mercury
04:15:59 <orin> as for why the japanese wanted SI units to fit into a kanji space... I have no goddamn clue
04:16:42 <oerjan> orin: the ghc compiler defers to the unicode standard for categorizing non-ascii characters. which left a few rare usages breaking when the unicode standard changed how it treats ... superscript numbers, i think it was.
04:16:58 <pikhq> So you can approximate Japanese typesetting rules with little more than half and full width characters.
04:17:59 <orin> FreeFull: wow you used some characters that aren't in my font! wow!
04:18:13 <pikhq> Namely, that an SI unit fits 1 kanji cell, especially when doing vertical writing.
04:18:24 <oerjan> hm did they fix that for 8.0
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04:20:12 <FreeFull> > let a ▼ b = log a / log b in (▼ 10) 100
04:20:16 <oerjan> or wait, maybe it was combining letter chars in general
04:20:25 <FreeFull> orin: Is this one in your font?
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04:20:44 <orin> yup, a downward triangle
04:22:03 <orin> pikhq: I see, for vertical writing
04:22:34 <orin> it would by annoying to have si units be sideways within a vertical text
04:22:56 <orin> (it's already annoying when it happens with names)
04:23:35 <oerjan> > generalCategory $ last " ́"
04:24:08 <oerjan> > var $ 'a'++drop 1 " ́"
04:24:09 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[Char]’ with actual type ‘Char’
04:24:09 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘(++)’, namely ‘'a'’
04:24:09 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely ‘'a' ++ drop 1 " \769"’
04:24:17 <oerjan> > var $ 'a':drop 1 " ́"
04:24:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: lexical error at character '\769'
04:26:11 <quintopia> oerjan: is the one about playing chess with dead men a voight-kampff question? no. is the question about text packing a voight-kampff question? definitely not. is the presentation of the concept of an attractive chicken in a garterbelt a secret voight-kampff test? definitely!
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04:37:49 <orin> argh firefox is being a vixen
04:37:57 <Jafet> so, would that chicken pass the voight-kampff test?
04:38:05 <orin> not working for me the way I want
04:38:24 <zzo38> What is working wrong and what way do you want to work?
04:38:31 <gamemanj> question, what's a voight-kampff test?
04:38:48 <orin> It isn't showing my font, it's showing some other font
04:39:05 <zzo38> gamemanj: I think they will tell you in Wikipedia; I looked it up it redirect to a different file it tell you what it means.
04:40:44 <orin> specifically, It's showing some of the characters in courier new
04:41:23 <gamemanj> orin: Are these characters always in pairs?
04:41:46 <shachaf> where is coppro/scshunt twh
04:42:34 <zzo38> orin: Then use a different program to test the font
04:43:01 <zzo38> Another thing to try is to try making a SVG document and see if it will display using the proper font if you do that.
04:43:37 <orin> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm <-- this displays ok for me in chrome, but in firefox
04:44:47 <orin> http://orenwatson.be/ARGH.PNG <-- I see this
04:45:44 <gamemanj> orin: It shows up in the correct Oren-Approved International Font for me
04:46:05 <zzo38> Is there possibility to download bitmap font?
04:46:17 <orin> gamemanj: in firefox?
04:46:21 <alercah> orin: red dragon mahjong tile is broken I think
04:47:06 <gamemanj> ...I don't think there are any more details to state.
04:47:35 <orin> Huh. so maybe my install of firefox is broken
04:48:07 <gamemanj> Who knows. Maybe it just doesn't like webfonts.
04:48:32 <orin> gamemanj: well I have the same version of firefox
04:49:05 <gamemanj> I'll just go searching through about:settings.
04:49:22 <gamemanj> Oh, wait, it's "about:config".
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04:50:40 <gamemanj> (useful elements: .disable_cache, .enabled, .woff2.enabled)
04:51:38 <gamemanj> gfx.missing_fonts.notify is also a potentially useful setting.
04:59:05 <orin> finagling with the css...
04:59:56 <orin> reveals that chrome exhibits the same behaviour if I reorder the fonts to font-family: monospace, neoletters
05:00:29 <orin> but firefox appears to be taking the system monospace font first, even if the css says otherwise
05:00:59 <zzo38> The Infocom/runic area of UTCE still has ten unused slots, so these may be filled with additional common runes not yet included, as well as possibly the Verne runes.
05:01:28 <zzo38> orin: Did you try using the font in a SVG document instead of a HTML document and see if it works better?
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05:02:40 <zzo38> (I don't know if it works or not, but you could try it)
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05:08:12 <orin> zzo38: I think the problem is in firefox, not the font
05:08:28 <orin> It works fine in Chrome, and in this terminal session as well
05:11:41 <orin> possibly something is wrong with my css
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05:12:20 <orin> but it worked in linux
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05:16:41 <quintopia> so...what's the best way to take a very long list of strings, and find the longest one that matches at position 0 of another list? I have two thoughts, but would like to hear other thoughts.
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05:18:40 <gamemanj> quintopia: Does the very long list of strings change often, or does the other string change often?
05:19:07 <quintopia> the long list is persistent. the other string changes
05:19:31 <gamemanj> Perhaps pre-sort the long list so that the longer strings are first. That way, when a string matches, you can immediately return.
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05:21:14 <quintopia> it still requires a linear search through the whole thing every time, and, for each thing in the list, a linear time string comparison
05:21:30 <gamemanj> You could try turning the list of strings into a tree.
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05:28:48 <quintopia> yeah a DAFSA is probs the way to go. But compiling one from a list will be a pain. I hope someone has done this before and published it...
05:29:09 <quintopia> oh hey nice https://pypi.python.org/pypi/DAWG/0.7.1
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05:54:58 <zzo38> It might take up more memory if converted to a tree, unless some compact representation of the tree in memory is used which can also be processed easily; one idea is to allow each node to contain multiple characters instead of necessarily only one per node.
05:57:24 <zzo38> orin: Three of the Powerline characters you have are things I intended already to include in the Texas Instruments block for UTCE (the TI-92 has some of them in its character set), so I may include the others also.
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07:04:24 <almightynsx> im complacent and irritable because Im trying to live a great life for god. im seeing visions, ive astral projected and I want to learn everything on the internet. I have a plan to study all subjects online but I am stirr crazy wait on the time I can pursue this objective. I have no friends because of what i believe in and im lonelier than a kid with nothing to do
07:04:59 <HackEgo> almightynsx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
07:05:55 <hppavilion[1]> almightynsx: Have you been diagnosed with anything?
07:05:58 <pikhq> almightynsx: Well, to start with there is no god.
07:07:10 <zzo38> Not everyone is atheist, but if you are seeing stuff that is not there then it is hallucinations, regardless of how good or bad it is, it is still hallucinations I think.
07:08:38 <zzo38> (I consider myself as panendeist)
07:09:35 <pikhq> I have no reason to believe they are real, and have reason to believe that your senses are fallible.
07:09:47 <zzo38> Everyone's senses can be fallible.
07:09:49 <almightynsx> being in esoteric channel you should all know the visions can be real when practiced right in the context of mysicism or new age spirituality
07:10:19 <zzo38> Maybe, but it is still hallucination, and still you cannot know for sure
07:10:33 <pikhq> You can't, because I can demonstrate human senses are fallible.
07:10:38 <hppavilion[1]> That's just the thing; the fallibility of the senses is unfalsifiable
07:10:39 <zzo38> almightynsx: You can't; the best way is scientific method if possible, but even that is not perfect; only mathematics is perfect.
07:10:41 <pikhq> This is a channel for esoteric programming languages, not for esotericism.
07:11:02 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Well, proving they're infallible is unfalsifiable. Proving they're fallible is trivial. :)
07:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Though, really, all esotericness would likely still be accepted
07:11:57 <zzo38> Yes pikhq is correct. (Of course we are not always on topic (often we are not), but still, we are not the one to know a lot about esotericism in this channel, so if you ask you are unlikely to get the answer you are looking for I think)
07:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> Esolangs are just what happen when your application of esotericism is in programming
07:12:22 <zzo38> But if you have a question, the best thing to do is to ask.
07:12:24 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: "Esotericism" tends to entail certain religious, mystic, or spiritual practices.
07:12:30 <hppavilion[1]> almightynsx: Also, learning "everything on the internet" is impossible
07:12:34 <zzo38> Even if, nobody knows the answers!
07:12:35 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Esoteric programming has little to do with that.
07:12:49 <hppavilion[1]> I thought Esotericism was basically the same as surrealism
07:13:32 <pikhq> No, it refers to "secret knowledge".
07:13:50 <hppavilion[1]> almightynsx: Here's a list of every website on the internet, which may be of use: http://www.internetlivestats.com/watch/websites/
07:14:11 <Jafet> wait, so this isn't the channel for esoteric projection? or channelling projects?
07:14:16 <zzo38> I doubt you can have a proper list of every website on the internet, and even if you do have it, it is not the entire internet anyways.
07:14:32 <pikhq> We're using "esoteric" in a vastly more literal sense, to say "intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people".
07:14:34 <zzo38> Jafet: It isn't, but if you have a question, ask anyways. Probably nobody knows, but how do you know until it is asked?
07:14:43 <almightynsx> i have develpoed a study plan to learn almost study on the internet
07:14:55 <pikhq> If you can apply esotericism to esoteric programming languages, though, I will be damned pleased.
07:14:58 <zzo38> Nevertheless it is probably better to ask elsewhere if there is a better place to ask.
07:15:07 <pikhq> almightynsx: I suggest starting with formal logic, personally.
07:15:50 <hppavilion[1]> almightynsx: Learn formal logic; this is 100% the best place to start
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07:17:59 <zzo38> Formal logic is good, but how good it is, depend what you want to do.
07:19:06 <zzo38> Mathematics is perfect, but to figure out how the laws of physics are working you must make the scientific experiment, and such experiment is not as perfect as mathematics.
07:22:21 <zzo38> I think many people in this channel is atheist, but what is the actual proportion (approximately)?
07:23:20 <pikhq> Not sure. Probably much higher than average.
07:23:50 <zzo38> I think that the average must be the average of something. Average of what?
07:24:01 <pikhq> Average in the population at large.
07:24:33 <zzo38> All human population of the world or only of English speaking people or what?
07:25:25 <pikhq> Dunno. I was figuring more of the IRC-using population, TBH.
07:25:50 <oerjan> isn't the IRC-using population also more likely to be atheist?
07:25:56 <zzo38> Now I know what you mean now, I think.
07:26:02 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know?
07:26:18 <oerjan> simply from being nerdy
07:26:29 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, that much is true.
07:27:49 <zzo38> Although I do not consider myself atheist but I consider myself as panendeist, although since it is difficult to know exactly what such classifications are meaning and some people's classifications may consider my beliefs as atheist even though I don't quite think so.
07:29:02 <zzo38> I don't use Facebook
07:30:11 <oerjan> i don't have the impression facebook is popular here, either. (i don't have it.)
07:30:32 <pikhq> I think I'm friends on Facebook with all the #esoteric people who use Facebook. :P
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07:41:43 <zzo38> I should to invent Unusenet it is same protocol NNTP like Usenet but the name is always start "un" optionally followed by a number, and then the dot, and then the rest of the name. If the number is specified then it specifies how to find the central server, for example if the name is "un2.net.example.aaa.bbbb" then the central server is "example.net".
07:42:57 <almightynsx> all add me on facebook almightynsx@yahoo.com
07:43:44 <zzo38> I don't use Facebook so I won't do that
07:44:09 <shachaf> If Facebook added Gopher support would you use it?
07:46:34 <zzo38> Facebook is not useful to me.
07:47:08 <shachaf> Don't you want to connect with friends and the world around you?
07:48:15 <almightynsx> yes but no one likes me because of the topics i am dealing with in my life
07:48:17 <zzo38> I can do that just by talking to them, although in many cases I do not need to.
07:48:42 <almightynsx> new age spirituality, visions of god, learning everything on the internet
07:49:11 <zzo38> As has been said before, you cannot "learn everything on the internet".
07:50:32 <zzo38> Either way you try to parse that, it won't work even if you are success you will still fail.
07:54:10 <zzo38> Maybe you can find a book about such thing as new age spirituality, visions of god, but possibly you don't find? Then you must write a book. But of course book is not the only one, also computer, too.
07:55:51 <zzo38> If you are trying to ask other people how to interpret whatever hallucinations you are having, then I do not know how I could possibly answer such question, because I am not you.
07:58:53 <almightynsx> i just want to know advise on how to go about learning everything on the internet and if my visions are because im schizophrenic or because god loves me
08:00:30 <zzo38> Probably it is because schizophrenic (although I am not a doctor and do not know much of schizophrenia so I cannot say this properly), but maybe there can be possibility to be both? Or, they can be inspire you for such thing.
08:02:01 <almightynsx> i see the devil and talk to him audiably and i wonder why im not like the rest of the world
08:02:41 <zzo38> Try asking a doctor and see if they know the answer. Possibly they don't, but I think it is worth a try.
08:03:26 <almightynsx> but they dont know much about hullucinations
08:03:42 <zzo38> Ask someone who does know.
08:04:53 <zzo38> But you cannot learning everything on the internet; there are many different protocols, port numbers, file formats, languages, passwords, encrypted data, and other stuff; and also temporal, which also makes it impossible.
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08:05:57 <zzo38> Yes, and I think you can learn some things from that
08:06:33 <almightynsx> im going to spend 5-10 years learning all the internet opencourseware
08:06:56 <zzo38> Well, I suppose you can do that at least.
08:08:42 <almightynsx> i think if i combined all the sciences and learn them all i would know all science which in on is all conscience con=with science=knowledge
08:09:09 <zzo38> No, that is impossible.
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08:09:32 <zzo38> Also, just if the word can be combine like such does not even make it possible.
08:11:11 <zzo38> It seems it is how etymology of "conscience", but just because it is how etymology does not do.
08:11:23 <almightynsx> well i would have a very good working knowledge of the universe, would you think?
08:12:04 <zzo38> The more you know, more you can know that you don't know.
08:12:36 <shachaf> The less you know, more you can know that you don't know.
08:13:54 <zzo38> Partially, but also if you know then it must be something you know. Even all law of physics and stuff all scientist even won't know perfectly!
08:14:04 <almightynsx> i know that i wont know all but i atleast will know alot
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08:14:39 <almightynsx> what do you think of the plan though? any advise on the idea of learning all opencourseware?
08:14:40 <zzo38> Yes, you would know more than if you don't study it at all.
08:14:54 <zzo38> It is good to learn.
08:15:08 <almightynsx> im scared in going to die if i learn all that
08:15:13 <zzo38> I don't know how much is all opencourseware anyways though, so I cannot answer.
08:15:29 <zzo38> Everyone will die regardless; it is the matter of time.
08:16:41 <almightynsx> well im a christian a bigger question that ive pondered is i might go to hell for learning all of this. what do you say to that?
08:16:59 <zzo38> I think that is irrelevant.
08:17:11 <zzo38> I also do not think that is how it is supposed to work anyways.
08:17:39 <zzo38> (Also I am not Christian)
08:17:50 <zzo38> What denomination are you anyways though?
08:20:26 <zzo38> To see why you might expect to go to hell for learning all of this, mainly.
08:22:20 <zzo38> That you are nondenominational Christian. I do not actually know a lot about such things anyways to answer such question, but if answer is posted, then it can help if anyone does know how to answer your question better based on that
08:29:35 <almightynsx> thanks for the advise this is the best conversation ive had in awhile
08:31:14 <zzo38> Sometimes by hallucination can be inspiration of something, such as, I think Principia Discordia was written like that.
08:32:31 <zzo38> Even when you are sleeping, can be dream and can be hallucination and that too can be inspiration of something, such as, I have seen a chess puzzle that was claimed to be invented in that way.
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08:34:05 <almightynsx> i dream, remember them and believe w/e im dreaming about has very important implications to my life. i live and act this way in my dreams and believe they are real
08:35:30 <almightynsx> recently i was dreaming of crossing railroad tracks while carrying something and a woman was chasing me to make me stop. then when i finally gave in to her my heart felt immensely great when i did that action in my dream i even woke up and started thinking and talking about it
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10:27:25 <gamemanj> "Principia Discordia"... I've heard of it, and have a way to check against it's calendar via an extremely indirect method, should it matter, but I don't understand what it's "about". Is today Zaraday, or was that yesterday?
10:28:36 <gamemanj> (Oh. It seems that the reference provider is not one, but two days out. Unfortunate.)
10:39:57 <gamemanj> For that matter, what is Zaraday...
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11:13:10 <shachaf> orin: SoundHound was finally useful to me.
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12:59:08 <fizzie> gamemanj: A holyday named after the apostle Zarathud hth
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13:27:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CSL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49139 * Actuallyallama * (+1565) first version of page
13:28:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CSL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49140&oldid=49139 * Actuallyallama * (+63) added implementation link
13:32:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49141&oldid=49140 * Actuallyallama * (+519) added more information
13:34:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CSL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49142&oldid=49141 * Actuallyallama * (+47) Added file extension info
13:35:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Actuallyallama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49143&oldid=47293 * Actuallyallama * (+80) actual info!
13:38:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CSL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49144&oldid=49142 * Actuallyallama * (+136)
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14:01:53 <HackEgo> superexponential growth//Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
14:05:41 <alercah> superexponential growth is not as crazy as busy beaver growth hth
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14:07:49 <boily> fluffy critters of the Canadian forest are fundamentally crazy.
14:07:58 <boily> also known as the FCCFFC theorem.
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15:03:17 <orin> I solved the problem with firefox by deleting firefox and installing a fresh copy
15:04:11 <orin> rm -rf first, ask questions later
15:04:55 <Jafet> so you literally outfoxed it
15:05:05 <gamemanj> someone should make a version of "rm" which acts like those things from Stargate
15:05:25 <gamemanj> shoot once to stun, twice to kill, three times... IDK what happens on three times, but it would probably remove all traces.
15:07:26 <myname> it's called a recycle bin
15:08:40 <orin> myname: I used the recycle bin, acutally, since this is a windows 7 computer
15:09:23 <myname> maybe you could've just created a new profile
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19:31:36 <moonythedwarf_> arf_> isowner(from,(dat) => {try {client.say(dat[0], eval(dat[2]));} catch (er) {client.say(dat[1], er);}},(dat) => {client.say(dat[0],"Permission denied")},[to,from,mdata.rest])
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19:53:24 <zzo38> gamemanj: I have implemented the Discordian calendar in ifMUD too
19:53:49 <zzo38> However, it uses the server's timezone, and does not include holidays other than St.Tib's day.
19:55:33 <zzo38> (St.Tib's day is a intercalary day)
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21:04:14 <gamemanj> zzo38: I'll note that if I ever go to ifMUD.
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21:58:21 <Zarutian> are turtle graphics strings considered esolangs in somesense? Specially if they started out as the result of a Lindenmeyer-system substitution?
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22:02:55 <gamemanj> Maybe if you defined the "complete" language (defining the Lindenmeyer-system definition language, and the accepted turtle graphics results) as an esolang?
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22:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> When human cloning is a thing, how will it fit into a family?
22:54:32 <hppavilion[1]> A clone is genetically the same as a twin sibling (unless you modify their genes), but they can be several years younger
22:54:48 <hppavilion[1]> So you might treat them as a brother/sister, making a clone's wife your sister-in-law
22:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> 52% of identical twins that have one gay member are both gay
22:56:33 <hppavilion[1]> There's no all-powerful gay gene that singlehandedly determines orientation
22:57:46 <myname> do you have a source for that 52%
22:58:23 <hppavilion[1]> Bailey JM, Pillard, RC (1991). "A Genetic Study of Male Sexual Orientation". Archives of General Psychiatry. 48 (12): 1089–96. doi:10.1001/archpsyc.1991.01810360053008. PMID 1845227.
22:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> The study has been criticized for possible selection bias, in that gay twins are more likely to participate
22:59:04 <myname> i wonder if a repeating study will,yield the same result
22:59:28 <myname> 52% sounds like way too high
23:00:23 <myname> if ypu count these as independent or close, it should be way less
23:00:23 <hppavilion[1]> myname: As in, if you identical twin is gay, the study finds that in 52% of cases, you're gay too
23:01:37 <hppavilion[1]> And since identical twins' DNA is virtually identical, this casts /serious/ doubt on the idea of a "gay gene"
23:02:27 <hppavilion[1]> (keep in mind, I'm not saying that this means that- since being gay is the result of nurture- this changes anything about gay rights; just because it's not genetic doesn't mean it's invalid; but now we can't use the gay gene argument any more)
23:03:05 <myname> the thing is, if it has _nothing_ to do with genes (which is what i'd assume) it should be way more towards the general percentage
23:04:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But this is just debunking the typical interpretation of a "gay gene"- some sort of all-powerful gene that, when active, makes you gay in 100% of cases and when not present makes you straight
23:04:43 <hppavilion[1]> Where, no matter how you're raised, the presence of such a gene will make you gay
23:05:01 <myname> what wikipedia article is this from
23:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> myname: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Twin_studies
23:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> I've heard that transgender...ness is the result of your mothers body giving too much or too little testosterone to a developing fetus, causing its body to develop incorrectly against its genes
23:06:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Not sure if this is true, and it probably isn't. But it might be. I don't know.)
23:07:06 <hppavilion[1]> But this leads me to wondering if identical twins have ever developed where that happened to one but not the other
23:07:59 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, wait, a later study (2000) found results closer to the population average
23:08:23 <myname> i am wondering how many of those gay twins are attracted to each other
23:09:05 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Probably 100% of them when they also have narcissistic personality disorder
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23:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> Do americans with Situs inversus use their left had when pledging allegiance to the flag of the united states of america in life and in death?
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00:20:17 <lambdabot> KORD 142251Z 12007KT 10SM SCT055 BKN250 28/18 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP161 T02830183
00:21:12 <fizzie> Well, the airport's pretty far from here.
00:21:35 <fizzie> Maybe there's a closer metar target.
00:22:29 <lambdabot> KOAK 142253Z 29013KT 10SM FEW010 FEW250 21/13 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP121 T02110133
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00:25:50 <lambdabot> CYUL 142300Z 29017G25KT 30SM FEW035 BKN052 BKN250 23/17 A2993 RMK CU1SC6CI1 CU TR SLP138 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
00:26:10 <lambdabot> KPHX 142251Z 20005KT 10SM FEW100 FEW150 41/12 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP063 T04060122
00:26:12 <boily> BREATHABLE WEATHER! COMFORT!
00:26:26 <boily> hellochaf. Phœnix is not livable at hth
00:27:50 <boily> weather where you can cook steak in direct sunlight is too warm for me.
00:29:33 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. which is you favourite Coast?
00:29:45 <shachaf> boily: I like The Coast of Utopia.
00:30:34 <boily> my coast can beat your coast anytime! nah!
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00:30:54 <shachaf> fizzie lives on an island of width ~500km hth
00:34:33 <HackEgo> theory//To be theory is to be like a theorem, but inferior.
00:34:33 <HackEgo> stupidity//Stupidity is created when people are too lazy to think correctly.
00:34:33 <HackEgo> json//JSON is JavaSyntax Or Nothing.
00:34:33 <HackEgo> wikipedia//Wikipedia is a bit like TVTropes but in more languages.
00:34:33 <HackEgo> szoup//A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
00:35:22 <HackEgo> Stanisław Lem was a Polish logician who discovered the law of excluded middle.
00:35:29 <fizzie> boily: I don't think I can really say about them American coasts, I've seen very little of them.
00:35:41 <shachaf> fizzie: When are you coming to MTV again?
00:36:24 <fizzie> I am in a place called "California Pizza Kitchen" now, does that count?
00:36:40 <shachaf> Have you tried Norwegian pizza?
00:37:31 <boily> . o O ( Norwegian pizza? with lutefisk? )
00:39:39 <fizzie> I mean, I've been to Norway and I might've eaten pizza there, but I don't think there was anything particularly Norwegian about it.
00:39:55 <shachaf> I've been told that Norwegian pizza is the best in the world.
00:40:57 <fizzie> I've been told that Chicago has some particular kind of pizza.
00:41:49 <shachaf> i,i https://twitter.com/TheFoodLab/status/761106613088325632
00:44:21 <fizzie> I... don't know if that's quite it.
00:46:47 <boily> I always forget what is i,i :/
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01:47:35 * boily mapoles hppavilion[1]
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01:52:34 <boily> I clicked the link.
01:53:19 <hppavilion[1]> I didn't know what the content was until I realized that goo.gl displays the page you shorten for
01:55:51 <fizzie> Strange. The laptop switched timezones automajistically when I went to Cambridge (I didn't know it was going to do that), but now it's stuck in Eastern Daylight Time.
01:55:53 <oerjan> waiting for registration emails is scow.
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01:56:49 <boily> oerjan: what are you registrating at for? and s/scow/hth/. you're oerjan, not shachaf hth
01:57:03 <oerjan> i'm registering at the iwc forum. after 10 years.
01:57:10 <shachaf> oerjan: i can send you a registration email if you like wth
01:57:37 <oerjan> provided the email ever gets through, that is.
01:58:35 <oerjan> `learn WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
01:58:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'wth': WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
02:01:23 <boily> fungot: do you have toe hair?
02:01:23 <fungot> boily: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
02:02:27 <oerjan> fungot: don't tell me you are tired of life D:
02:02:27 <fungot> oerjan: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! something is reacting to the pendant. take out the contents are yours?
02:02:49 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:02:54 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
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02:06:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nolist: not found
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02:08:49 <HackEgo> busy beaver growth? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:10:06 <oerjan> `le/rn busy beaver growth/No one can compute the length of a wisdom entry sufficient to explain busy beaver growth.
02:10:08 <HackEgo> Learned «busy beaver growth»
02:11:28 <shachaf> `? superexponential growth
02:11:29 <HackEgo> Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
02:11:36 <fizzie> fungot: Why do you no longer ever talk about that sword that alone could not stop?
02:11:36 <fungot> fizzie: must think of a way to the ocean palace?
02:11:36 <alercah> oerjan: what do you hope that helped with?
02:11:39 <shachaf> `cwlprits superexponential growth
02:11:55 <oerjan> alercah: well you pointed out an obvious gap in wisdom hth
02:12:13 <shachaf> oerjan: your wisdom entry fills a much-needed gap hth
02:12:33 <oerjan> shachaf: that's because you don't understand superexponential growth
02:12:45 <fizzie> fungot: There's a transporter in the Zeal Palace, you just need to energize the pendant in the Mammon Machine.
02:12:45 <fungot> fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!... you're gaspar, the guru of time! get moving! irreparable! please! pretty please! hmmm, two-legged, walking humanoid robot! incredible!
02:14:48 * oerjan uses the saucepan to add a much-needed gap to shachaf's teeth ===\__/
02:17:11 <oerjan> the email is still not getting through :( i hope it hasn't been caught by a spam filter.
02:26:31 <oerjan> i guess it was just not meant to be.
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02:56:52 <fizzie> "By removing the need for would-be programmers to learn esoteric programming languages, the method has the potential to significantly expand the number of people engaged in programming --"
02:56:56 <fizzie> https://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=189457&org=NSF&from=news
02:57:19 <fizzie> I see we've been made obsolete.
02:58:37 <oerjan> 's ok they'll only be able to make fruit game apps hth
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03:17:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49145&oldid=49094 * Darkrifts * (+176) Added http://termbin.com/dubq implementation
03:18:11 <quintopia> it feels so nice to actually be writing a bit of python code again.
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03:45:59 <Jafet> perhaps we should advocate our position with a textbook
03:46:11 <Jafet> “Computer Programming Made Difficult”
03:49:27 <quintopia> zzo38: do you know anything about packing strings?
03:49:40 <Jafet> “Total Grants: $9,006,930” — it seems that esoteric programming is being severely outfunded, too.
03:54:05 <pecan> ‘Computer Programming Made Difficult’ seems like an excellent name for an INTERCAL book.
04:03:05 <zzo38> quintopia: About packing strings with what? You would have to be more specific, I think
04:09:41 <Jafet> I recommend using packing tape instead of packing strings
04:11:13 <zzo38> Yes, I think it work better
04:12:32 -!- oerjan has set topic: The string theory channel | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
04:35:35 <zzo38> When I watch the television I like to enable both the captions and the sound, although some people don't like the captions. (Someone said to me that she prefers the talking, but enabling the captions does not preclude also sound.)
04:36:47 <zzo38> It seem that sometimes the people who wrote the caption does not even know what they said; I would hope that they should ask the people who made the TV show or who are talking on the TV show, so that they can write it on the caption!
04:40:21 <zzo38> What would you think of such thing as this?
04:42:16 <zzo38> Is there any TV caption code to tell it to not display some of the captions? I think it can be useful if you write caption for Jeopardy then you can write the clues also into the captions but write them concealed so that it the clue will not be doubled on the TV screen, but is still displayed if you print out the captions.
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05:26:27 <oerjan> girl genius: i hope Dimo won't accidentally activate that thing
05:31:07 <oerjan> also, who are those guys...
05:37:40 <pikhq> zzo38: *Sometimes* the captions are being done live, so it's not feasible.
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05:52:43 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I think it might for news shows maybe?
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09:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DatCodingGuy * New user account
09:25:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fishstacks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49146&oldid=40543 * DatCodingGuy * (+122)
09:30:18 <myname> fishstacks sounds useless
09:30:30 <myname> you basically replace output with 4 pushes
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12:06:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49147&oldid=49109 * 122.107.203.79 * (+1092) /* Implementation */
12:08:10 <HackEgo> future//We know nothing about the future.
12:08:10 <HackEgo> universe//A universe is a poem in one stanza.
12:08:10 <HackEgo> shachaf//Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
12:10:05 <gamemanj> At least the number 256 is easy to write. "iisss"
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12:16:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49148&oldid=49147 * DatCodingGuy * (+7) /* Implementation */
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12:42:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49149&oldid=47144 * DatCodingGuy * (+1411) /* C# */
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18:17:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BusinessCat * New user account
18:18:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49150&oldid=49135 * BusinessCat * (+13) /* G */
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19:03:35 <relrod> shachaf: I'm doing hacky weird things with SPARC64 boxes, don't mind me~
19:04:35 <Zarutian> relrod: SPARC64? isnt that an variation MIPS RISC? Does it use OpenFirmware for booting?
19:05:51 <relrod> Zarutian: yeah, openboot :)
19:06:33 <relrod> had a coworker who was moving and had to get rid of them, so I was like "I'll take them!" -- we both drove about 8 hours, met half way, and he loaded up my car with them :P
19:06:43 <relrod> they used to be part of the Fedora SPARC buildsystem
19:07:42 <Zarutian> I wonder how many SPARC cores you could fit on today chip-dies with todays 22nm feature size techniques
19:10:31 <Zarutian> but I love that expansion cards (PCI or S-BUS) could have ROMs with minimal driver written in F-code
19:11:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subtractpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49151&oldid=47203 * Keymaker * (+3252) Proof of Turing-completeness via Minsky Machine translation.
19:15:57 <hppavilion[1]> Companies can merge together to form a new, bigger company
19:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> But is there ever a reason for companies to divide when they aren't compelled to?
19:16:38 <shachaf> Depends on what you mean by dividing.
19:17:26 <shachaf> You can have all sorts of reasons to split up a company into subsidiaries which are still part of the same bigger company.
19:17:36 <shachaf> You can sell part of a company to someone
19:18:54 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: you mean seperation and spin of? Happens all the time in the field of electronics component making
19:18:54 <fizzie> Goo... I mean, Alphabet did sort of something like splitting up.
19:19:22 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: One company becomes two, fully independent companies, neither of which is incorporated into another or bought by a private individual... I guess
19:19:47 <hppavilion[1]> Does it ever take you embarrassingly long to get a pun? Like, The Count from Sesame Street
19:20:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subtractpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49152&oldid=49151 * Keymaker * (+6) Added missing commas to the translation example.
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19:20:37 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Paulproteus/List_of_puns_that_took_Asheesh_more_than_a_year_to_get
19:23:15 <shachaf> Well, you can ask who owns the two independent companies.
19:26:50 <quintopia> welp...that TCness proof turned out to be a lot simpler than anyone thought...
19:27:38 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
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19:31:19 <quintopia> i'm not sure what is meant by the "Delta is for D like in the NATO alphabet" thing
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19:31:42 <quintopia> Delta the airline was named after its origins cropdusting the mississippi river delta...
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19:38:58 <Zarutian> quintopia: you recognize this ∆ ? That is a delta
19:40:11 <quintopia> Zarutian: yes, and it is the origin of Delta's logo. i get that. But the name preceded the logo. they said "we're called Delta, so we'll use a greek letter delta as our logo."
19:44:34 <Zarutian> quintopia: the NATO phonetic alphabet is used when you have to have to spell something out or raise someone on radio via callsign
19:45:58 <quintopia> Zarutian: i suspect Delta was chosen for the NATO alphabet based on it being a greek letter, rather than it being the name of an airline
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20:21:22 <hppavilion[1]> We should measure self-driving cars' intelligence in horsepower
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21:38:39 <orin> George Soros's NGOs' files have been leaked! Yay for government transparency!
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21:39:56 <gamemanj> If it's an NGO, then how can it be government transparency?
21:40:53 <orin> gamemanj: because it is now proven that George Soros has been influencing the actions of European governments wrt to the migrant crisis
21:41:31 <orin> a heinous affront to democracy
21:42:24 <orin> I hope the Koch Brothers get leaked next
21:42:55 <gamemanj> I see nothing wrong with the Koch snowflake.
21:43:52 <orin> gamemanj: clearly you haven't zoomed in enough
21:46:31 <hppavilion[2]> God, ~13.82 billion years ago: "What if I made a universe where things necessary to survive were rivalrous and excludable?"
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21:51:58 <int-e> orin: doxing may be the term you're looking for
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21:54:43 <shachaf> I'm probably going to be buying a laptop.
21:54:49 <int-e> (The word is good enough for Bruce Schneier so it's good enough for me)
21:54:55 <shachaf> But my experiences lead me to avoid HP Pavilions.
21:55:34 <shachaf> My experiences with an HP Pavilion laptop, I mean.
21:55:34 <orin> shachaf: I recommend thinkpad
21:55:36 <int-e> /ignore is still a win on that front, IMHO.
21:56:00 <shachaf> orin: Do you? More than e.g. Dell XPS 15?
21:56:10 <hppavilion[1]> I recommend buying a soldering iron and some silicone
21:56:19 <shachaf> Which Thinkpad is as good as Dell XPS 15?
21:56:25 <orin> IME Dells come loaded with more crap software
21:56:47 <shachaf> Well, I wouldn't be running Windows most of the time anyway.
21:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> What would it be like if I had a computer that wasn't full of unnecessary shit?
21:57:05 <shachaf> Also I could buy the Signature Edition from the Microsoft Store, which comes with a "no bloatware" promise.
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21:57:30 <shachaf> Doesn't Lenovo put spyware in its computers anyway?
21:57:52 <shachaf> Anyway I hardly use Windows so I care about the hardware.
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21:58:43 <orin> shachaf: in that case, the manufacturer hardly matters, other than chassis aesthetics
21:58:46 <gamemanj> (What Linux feels like depends on the distribution.)
21:59:11 <orin> shachaf: I like black
21:59:34 <orin> and their T series is suitably boxy and tough looking
22:00:13 <orin> like a MiG-31 of laptops
22:00:14 <gamemanj> laptops, laptops... who needs new laptops
22:00:49 * gamemanj points at a laptop that is (probably) 4 or 5 years old IIRC
22:00:55 <myname> i had an arch linux on a server that didn't have man installed :D
22:01:50 <gamemanj> also, orin, that's computer-colour-ist
22:01:56 <hppavilion[1]> (It does have OneKey Optimizer, which is nice, albeit probably useless)
22:01:58 <gamemanj> don't discriminate computers and laptops by colour
22:02:56 <orin> but I don't like silver coloured computers
22:03:00 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Yeah, only discriminate by computer gender, religion, national origin, sexuality, or gender identity
22:03:43 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Computers, to the best of my knowledge, don't have gender, religion, sexuality, or gender identity. But yeah, also don't discriminate based on national origin.
22:04:15 * gamemanj stares into hppavilion[1]'s deep eyes.
22:04:18 <myname> laptops are post gender
22:05:36 <orin> All laptops are made in China by Taiwanese manufacturers abyway
22:06:26 <orin> the Guangdong megacity
22:06:53 <orin> My dad went there once, he borught back a lot of cool picutres
22:07:50 <orin> one day I want to live in a city that big
22:08:13 <orin> Toronto is insufficiently urban
22:10:48 <shachaf> Apple probably makes the best laptops.
22:10:55 <shachaf> But I don't want an Apple computer.
22:11:36 <orin> shachaf: you mean, Apple hires 鴻海科技集團 to make laptops, according to their specs.
22:11:50 <orin> Apple doesnt actually manufacture any laptops
22:12:07 <shachaf> Apple laptops are probably the best ones.
22:12:20 <shachaf> Whether they manufacture them or cause other people to manufacture them is irrelevant.
22:12:30 <pikhq> Few *entities* actually do manufacturing of electronics themselves.
22:12:43 <orin> My Thinkpad has a button mouse
22:13:53 <orin> it has a touchpad and a trackpoint, but I actually plug in a usb mouse most of the time
22:14:01 <myname> i'd love a sony vaio p with modern hardware
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22:16:04 <orin> and, interestingly until recently, cpu's were almost exclusively manufactured in the USA
22:16:16 <shachaf> Why did it stop being interesting recently?
22:16:28 <orin> shachaf: ...argh
22:17:25 <orin> I meant that now China manufactures some CPU's
22:18:02 <shachaf> I'd be surprised if Intel did any CPU manufacturing in China.
22:18:49 <orin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunway
22:19:16 <int-e> and there's the whole export restriction debacle that prompted China to make their own ... surprisingly competetive ... CPUs
22:19:18 <shachaf> When can I get a Mill? twh
22:20:41 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunway_TaihuLight ... so closely related to orin's link.
22:23:03 <shachaf> http://millcomputing.com/docs/
22:23:29 <shachaf> You should watch the videos.
22:24:15 <int-e> I think I've seen it mentioned but it didn't stick and I didn't investigate in any detail. Thanks for the reminder!
22:25:09 <shachaf> Yes, I ws in that situation the first several times I heard about it.
22:25:38 <shachaf> Eventually I got around to looking into it and then I watched all the videos.
22:26:46 <shachaf> If you watch them on YouTube you might want to put it on 1.5x or 2x speed.
22:28:59 <gamemanj> you know, I don't see any actual hardware on this Mill site
22:29:04 <gamemanj> it may well not exist as a real product
22:29:49 <gamemanj> Oh, apparently at least the ISA semi-exists, because they've been talking about their LLVM compiler work
22:30:44 <int-e> lots of vapor though
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22:36:22 <int-e> even some of the talks are vaporware...
22:36:40 <int-e> "The talk will describe the machinery behind the Mill IPC protocols [...]"
22:37:35 <shachaf> Maybe the Mill people would HireFly
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22:37:49 <shachaf> I don't think they pay any of their employees any money.
22:38:11 <shachaf> Actually I heard one of them gets a bit now.
22:40:59 <FireFly> I made a sierpinski carpet in K earlier today
22:41:27 <FireFly> [ binview ([: ,./^:2 (3 3$1 1 1 1 0) *"0 _ ])^:2 ,.1
22:41:53 <int-e> The belt is a cute idea. They say they have whitepapers but the closest to that I currently see is the wiki.
22:42:22 <int-e> Not impressed so far. And I have no bandwidth for videos, here.
22:42:59 <shachaf> Last I checked there wasn't much information anywhere except the videos.
22:43:25 <int-e> well, videos are an awful medium for actual information.
22:43:33 <shachaf> I can sympathize with not wanting to get the information via videos.
22:43:45 <shachaf> I think you can get some information elsewhere too, e.g. http://millcomputing.com/topic/introduction-to-the-mill-cpu-programming-model-2/
22:49:12 <int-e> Oh well I may have a look at one or two of the talks this week... just need to be at work.
22:49:51 <int-e> presumably the guy is a gifted speaker.
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23:00:14 <HackEgo> ruddy//HackEgo? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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23:33:00 <int-e> https://github.com/irccloud/irccloud-tools/wiki/Notice-handling makes me sad.
23:34:47 <int-e> (actually it's largely correct, but notices just should not result in any popups, ever)
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23:48:40 <zzo38> On this computer I have some pinball game that is involving pokemon and has some kind of strange scoring, for example for each of your pokemons (you can have up to six) how many points you get is
23:49:21 <zzo38> reelvalues(i)*int(m*(i+1.9+level_reached/3)) where reelvalues(i) is the number of that pokemon, int is rounding down a number to an integer, i is the slot number from 0 to 9, and level_reached is calculated based on what modes you have completed.
23:49:35 <zzo38> And m is 5 if you have run out of balls to play, or 1 otherwise.
23:51:19 <shachaf> Why is reelvalues(i) a function of i?
23:51:48 <zzo38> Probably it is a array, I think
23:51:56 <zzo38> (Although I am not quite sure why it is called that)
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00:02:08 <zzo38> The variable that stores how many hit points opponent has is called "current_mode_y", while the variable that stores the time limit is called "current_mode_z". Spinners are worth 1 point, bumpers are worth 2 points if not flashing or 50 points if flashing, drop targets are worth 100 points, and some things are worth random numbers of points (why?)
00:24:41 <zzo38> I looked at the stuff about new Magic: the Gathering Conspiracy set. So I thought of one card to make up: Enchant player ;; When ~ comes into play, enchanted player becomes the monarch. ;; At the beginning of enchanted player's upkeep, the monarch loses 1 life.
00:27:13 <shachaf> I don't know what the monarch is.
00:28:32 <zzo38> It is a new rule. Initially there is no monarch. Up to one player can be the monarch, and that player draws a card at the beginning of the end step (I don't know if it is a turn-based action or triggered ability; the proper rules are not yet written). If a creature deals combat damage to the monarch, that creature's controller becomes the monarch.
00:28:56 <zzo38> (I don't know whether or not this effect uses the stack.)
00:30:24 <zzo38> Only that player's own end step, I think. The proper rules are not yet written so I don't quite know.
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00:31:49 <shachaf> a heffalump or woozle is very confusel
00:32:09 <shachaf> It would be too good if it was at each end step.
00:33:02 * oerjan starts whistling that song
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00:38:52 * oerjan finds himself still whistling
00:39:14 <int-e> you're not very subtle
00:39:35 <shachaf> Did you play Spider and Web?
00:40:19 <oerjan> shachaf: also, one of disney's more psychedelic scenes, i believe
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00:42:16 <int-e> Not in the past 8 weeks. I have some notes... listing too many toys of various polarities.
00:43:57 <shachaf> There are only two polarities.
00:44:04 <shachaf> It's really not all that complicated.
00:44:46 <int-e> Oh I'm sure it isn't, I just haven't continued.
00:44:57 <fizzie> There are only two polarities: sieve and kettle.
00:45:22 <int-e> I haven't completed snakebird either
00:46:00 <shachaf> How much money is reasonable to spend on a computer?
00:46:04 <shachaf> Why are the good ones expensive?
00:46:21 <int-e> supply and demand?
00:46:43 <shachaf> The second question was rhetorical.
00:48:53 <int-e> But why would you ever ask a rhetorical question?!
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01:42:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49153&oldid=49149 * Oerjan * (-1411) Undo revision 49149 by [[Special:Contributions/DatCodingGuy|DatCodingGuy]] ([[User talk:DatCodingGuy|talk]]) (d and s are clearly broken)
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02:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> At 15:30:08 UTC on Sunday, 4 December 292,277,026,596,[21][22] 64-bit versions of the Unix time stamp would cease to work, as it will overflow the largest value that can be held in a signed 64-bit number. This is nearly 22 times the estimated age of the universe, which is 1.37×1010 years (13.7 billion), and by this time all Earth-based systems running on 64-bit UNIX time will be long gone due to the Earth being incinerated by the red
02:10:34 <oerjan> that's not a given. e.g. we could do like the Puppeteers and move Earth somewhere else.
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02:12:04 <oerjan> or to put it differently, if humans or our descendants are still around by then, then i expect us to have learned how to solve such problems.
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02:12:49 <oerjan> (of course, this may not leave the Earth any _better_ off.)
02:14:13 <oerjan> also, i thought that estimate was around 4-5 billion years...
02:14:52 <Yurume_> oerjan : are we sure that we will have *descendants* by that time? ;)
02:15:11 <oerjan> Yurume_: i clearly wrote an "if" hth
02:15:24 <oerjan> also, i was using it in the loosest possible sense.
02:16:31 <oerjan> there's probably a better word.
02:16:50 <Yurume_> (feels like that the human logic avoids any resolution resulting in vacuous true)
02:17:49 <oerjan> it's not quite vacuously true, i think.
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02:18:43 <oerjan> our successors _could_ be around but having failed to preserved Earth.
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02:20:34 <oerjan> perhaps not seeing it as important. it's not like current humans are always respectful to history.
02:22:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49154&oldid=49145 * DatCodingGuy * (+180) /* Implementations */
02:28:43 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o74BnFSr8g is a thing that exists and this makes me happy
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02:47:16 <quintopia> novel now at 110k words what will i do to shorten it :(
02:53:14 <oerjan> get rid of that annoying character that you put in just for laughs hth
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04:45:02 <shachaf> What are some good characterizations of P/NP/PSPACE/etc. that don't use Turing machines?
04:45:23 <oerjan> `learn Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
04:45:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'tc': Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
04:46:20 <shachaf> oerjan: I assume it's impossible to produce with a natural transformation?
04:48:21 <oerjan> shachaf: PSPACE is the set of languages recognizable by super mario hth
04:48:35 <HackEgo> Mario is a classic PSPACE-complete problem invented by Nintendo.
04:48:42 <oerjan> i guess you don't need the super.
04:49:08 <shachaf> Is Super Mario a version of Mario equipped with a Mario oracle?
04:49:44 <oerjan> that should work, though, since i believe PSPACE is low for itself.
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05:20:58 <HackEgo> <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <oerjan> echo "HackEgo? \xc2\xaf\\(\xc2\xb0\xe2\x80\x8b_o)/\xc2\xaf" >wisdom/ruddy
05:21:23 * oerjan has no idea why he made that.
05:21:40 <oerjan> it must have been funny in context.
05:21:54 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/ruddy | tac
05:21:58 <HackEgo> \ summary: <oerjan> echo "HackEgo? \xc2\xaf\\(\xc2\xb0\xe2\x80\x8b_o)/\xc2\xaf" >wisdom/ruddy \ date: Sat Dec 07 01:36:57 2013 +0000 \ user: HackBot \ changeset: 4150:d7b1acbebad0
05:22:43 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-12-07 hth
05:25:31 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-0HRs0FY2U
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06:07:00 <shachaf> seeing from the side, it is so thin
06:30:59 <oerjan> everything went better than expected
06:31:34 <shachaf> Did the email get through?
06:32:48 <oerjan> i refer to the hamster hth
06:45:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49155&oldid=49154 * DatCodingGuy * (-9) /* Implementations */
06:46:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49156&oldid=49153 * DatCodingGuy * (+1503) /* C# */
06:47:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fishstacks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49157&oldid=49146 * DatCodingGuy * (-9) /* External resources */
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06:49:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49158&oldid=49148 * DatCodingGuy * (-14) The last few edits of mine have been updating links
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06:56:52 <zzo38> I had some ideas of new spell to make up for Dungeons&Dragons game, such as, to create an extra timelike dimension, to save part of the duration of a spell for later, to apply metamagic to opponent's spell, to feign invisibility, to become invisible to humans, to go back in time 13 seconds, to delay a spell until another ends...
06:58:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49159&oldid=49156 * Oerjan * (-1503) Undo revision 49156 by [[Special:Contributions/DatCodingGuy|DatCodingGuy]] ([[User talk:DatCodingGuy|talk]]) (Still broken)
06:59:25 <zzo38> More possibilities are, to redirect damage directed at summoned creatures to yourself, to suppress a spell during even-numbered rounds of its duration, to create coloured water (acts like normal water), to make any spell language-dependent, to force a target to decide his action in advance (but you don't know what his decision is), and also a few more.
07:00:40 <shachaf> What is feigning invisibility?
07:00:54 <shachaf> Does it mean that someone who can see invisible things thinks you're invisible, but you aren't actually?
07:01:14 <zzo38> If they can see you, they believe you are invisible, but can see you despite that you are invisible.
07:01:46 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/deadfish: not found
07:01:57 <shachaf> I have some variations on your spell "to go back in time 13 secods"
07:01:57 <oerjan> don't we have a deadfish anywhere.
07:01:58 <zzo38> (If you actually are invisible and they cannot see invisibility, it won't have any effect. If they can see invisible already, then it does have the effect you mentioned.)
07:02:04 <oerjan> oh well, i think i have one somewhere...
07:02:12 <zzo38> shachaf: OK, what kind of variations is that please?
07:02:29 <shachaf> For example, to go back in time 12 seconds, to go back in time 14 seconds, to go back in time 13 years, to go back in time 13 weeks, to go forward in time 13 seconds.
07:02:44 <shachaf> To go back in time 7 seconds, to go back in time 26 seconds...
07:03:27 <zzo38> I like to just have one which is specifically for 13 seconds (a bit more than 2 rounds); it won't do a lot, but sometimes it is more than sufficient to do what you require.
07:05:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49160&oldid=49159 * Oerjan * (+75) Add test cases for d.
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07:22:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49161&oldid=49160 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Example program */ Add another d to catch a type of error
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07:30:09 <oerjan> i guess there's still no test for wrapping with i...
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08:00:10 <shachaf> http://media.wizards.com/2016/azetllnwjpxztp2b_CN2/en_hBO2gZDg8f.png is ridiculous
08:01:52 <FireFly> Is Conspiracy a new card type?
08:02:06 <shachaf> It was introduced in the last Conspiracy set.
08:02:15 <zzo38> No it was in the first Conspiracy set invented at first.
08:02:17 <FireFly> That sounds a bit broken to me, that card
08:02:29 <zzo38> All conspiracies are automatically banned.
08:02:50 <shachaf> Though if you draft one or two other conspiracies this one becomes unusable.
08:02:51 <zzo38> Therefore it can be used only in Limited formats
08:02:54 <shachaf> Since you need 40 cards in your deck.
08:05:03 <zzo38> It can depend on your format of drafting; if it is not a standard draft (for example, if you use more than three packs, or if you are playing Sealed with more than three packs) then you can have more.
08:05:43 <zzo38> Also in a Limited game you can add any number of conventional basic lands to your sideboard, so you aren't going to run out.
08:08:02 <shachaf> Oh, you mean when you use this card.
08:09:06 <zzo38> Run out of basic lands.
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08:51:24 <zzo38> Can you please to tell me if this example program is understable OK: http://www.intfiction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=20365
08:56:13 <zzo38> Possibly with the help I can make up some set/block of Magic: the Gathering cards. I have some cards I made up but I can get rid of a lot of the stuff and abilities and so on, write proper rules, make changes for balances and so on, assign rarities for use with draft/sealed, etc.
08:56:19 <zzo38> As well as to add new cards. Still the same file for all of them I make up and once they will be added into one or more sets it can be locked up that specific card, although such thing as the picture and favortext and rarity can still be altered between sets.
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09:09:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49162&oldid=49161 * Oerjan * (+80) /* Example program */ Clarify that program does not actually print Hello world
09:31:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49163&oldid=49162 * DatCodingGuy * (+1237) Finally got my Deadfish interpreter running thanks to oerjan
09:34:16 <shachaf> I can't remember whether John Metcalf is here.
09:36:35 <shachaf> Ah, with the nick "Metcalf"?
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09:37:14 <FireFly> no idea what nickname, but the name sounds a bit familiar
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11:43:27 <HackEgo> soviet russia//¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
12:02:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49164&oldid=49121 * Beta-Decay * (-29) Updated interpreters
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12:42:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Caker]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49165 * TuxCrafting * (+1452) Created page with "Caker is a programming language created by [[User:TuxCrafting]] Caker operate on a unbounded bit tape == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Action |- | <code>..."
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13:04:11 <gamemanj> Caker seems to be a Boolfuck derivative.
13:04:39 <gamemanj> However, the "interesting" part is that it's different due to the way conditionals are implemented.
13:06:10 <gamemanj> And the fact that you can't arbitrary flip bits. It seems that performing an arbitrary memory access is like playing a game of Lights Out or something.
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13:11:31 <gamemanj> There is one mostly unnotable person here, currently sending a self-depreciatory message about how unnotable they are.
13:16:12 <gamemanj> I've already found two "semi-useful" patterns in Caker. Repetitive "OWOWOO" on a 0-initialized tape acts as a trinary increment, while "O(OWOO)" clears it again. Not sure how much use that is, though.
13:16:42 <DatCodingGuy> was thinking of writing an interppreter for it
13:17:08 <gamemanj> Also note that I'm using O and W because unicode is annoying to type and copy about.
13:18:47 <gamemanj> It's a good thing the tape is unbounded in either direction (I think? I hope!), otherwise programming would be around about impossible.
13:19:10 <gamemanj> (You can only go left without setting any 1 bits.)
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15:26:31 <izabera> 14:21:47 up 3 days, 19:31, 2 users, load av....
15:26:44 <izabera> WHO THE FUCK IS HACKING MY Vohwait i have weechat
15:32:05 <FireFly> reminds me that I need to do some maintenance on my VPS..
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16:35:13 <izabera> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-bash/2016-08/msg00043.html
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18:11:02 <orin> what, now people are using ⇛ and such in song titles?
18:13:08 <FireFly> by people do you mean weird japanese music?
18:13:27 <FireFly> because for some reason they tend to like putting random unicode in song titles
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18:14:12 <orin> but titles like that cause problems with car stereos
18:15:14 <orin> the fonts don't support the characters, and it gets replaced with a ?
18:16:11 <orin> I'm lucky it even supports the hiragana and kanji
18:16:11 * FireFly is reminded of 3L - ・－・・ －－－ ・・・－ ・
18:16:48 <orin> but on the last road trip I discovered that the car doesn't have halfwidth katakana
18:17:03 <FireFly> I have seen therefore/because used in song titles too
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18:19:37 <orin> also, for some reason, it has european accented letters, but vietnamese ends up looking like ti??g vi?t.
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18:21:06 * orin googles how to install fonts on a car
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19:51:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Caker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49166&oldid=49165 * TuxCrafting * (+439)
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20:04:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Caker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49167&oldid=49166 * Paul2520 * (+10) minor cleanup
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21:38:34 <zzo38> Do you like Brexit?
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21:43:16 <shachaf> I would expect that fizzie doesn't like Brexit.
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21:45:59 <zzo38> I don't live at Britain but even before they did it I thought it was a good idea, I told someone to tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU. However I think probably they should have prepared better, it look like they have not prepared for it properly.
21:47:27 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> I told someone to tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU.
21:47:39 <HackEgo> 1287) <zzo38> I told someone to tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU.
21:47:47 <shachaf> Why did you think it was a good idea?
21:48:57 <FireFly> There seemed to be lots of anti-immigrant and racist behaviour after the referendum, which seems like a bad thing
21:50:03 <zzo38> Yes, I have read some people hate Brexit and some people think that everyone who likes Brexit must be racist, but that doesn't make sense. That is not the only point of Brexit at all
21:51:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49168&oldid=49018 * Nthern * (+2291) Added interpreters implemented in Game of Life
21:53:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:DatCodingGuy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49169 * Darkrifts * (+277) Created page with "As for [[Calcutape]], you do realize that there is a Stack<T> in System.Collections.Generic, right. Would have made your job easier, as would simply parsing the string before..."
21:53:45 <shachaf> Weren't you going to move to the US to escape anti-immigrant and racist behaviour?
21:54:40 <shachaf> I don't understand why people in the US are anti-immigrant, given that the country is made up entirely of people who are immigrants or nearly so.
21:57:56 <moon_> How do i run a file from a specific path, like ~/workspace/other/rbfile.rb, using the ruby command?
22:03:57 <moon_> Nvm on question, i now have a functional ruby sandbox on my bot :D
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22:08:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49170&oldid=46622 * 108.36.163.79 * (+104)
22:12:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:S.I.L.O.S]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49171 * Darkrifts * (+190) Created page with "I would like to suggest 1) clearing up the syntax 2) adding some new lines and such in the description ~~~~"
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22:20:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49172&oldid=49150 * 108.36.163.79 * (+16)
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22:50:39 <orin> shachaf: IME, immigrants hate other immigrants
22:52:44 <orin> I might want to be an immigrant someday, so I don't hate immigrants.
22:53:40 <orin> shachaf: that would be a downgrade! I might as well move to belarus
22:55:38 <orin> If I'm moving somewhere it has to be less dangerous than Canada
22:59:05 <orin> You know, low crime rate, good healthcare system, no morons toting guns around...
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23:00:43 <shachaf> I wonder how much health care would cost me if I bought it by myself.
23:00:52 <orin> England would be nice though! Good weather too.
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23:22:43 <quintopia> define good without using the words pooch or scow
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23:27:21 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: invokes positive reinforcement in the human brain
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23:49:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:DatCodingGuy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49173&oldid=49169 * DatCodingGuy * (+503)
23:50:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:DatCodingGuy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49174&oldid=49173 * DatCodingGuy * (+23)
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00:00:19 <HackEgo> Your mysterious interjecting zombie øverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:00:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious interjecting zombie oeverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:02:06 <oerjan> `` howg oerjan | grep prono
00:02:27 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/interjecting/pronounced/
00:02:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious pronounced zombie oeverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
00:02:56 <oerjan> i fear we may be running out of word classes.
00:05:05 * oerjan thinks of another one, for later.
00:06:41 <orin> i have the worst mnemonic idea
00:07:01 <orin> promotional video = netorare
00:07:37 <orin> the ideal gas law
00:07:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:07:58 <shachaf> That seems like a much more reasonable formulation to me.
00:08:20 <oerjan> promotional video over net = rubbish
00:09:22 <orin> PV=nRT was how i learned it. i just thought of rearraging the RT to TR
00:09:45 <shachaf> That was how I learned it too.
00:09:56 <shachaf> But then I decided it was silly and better written as PV/nT=R
00:10:11 <shachaf> Or PV/nT=P'V'/n'T' or something.
00:10:55 <orin> shachaf: but fractuons are hard, waaa
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00:11:01 <oerjan> shachaf: did you notice my nice mnemonic hth
00:11:27 <shachaf> Well, the important thing is that P and V are on the top of the thing and n and T are on the bottom.
00:11:42 <shachaf> That's no harder to remember than P and V being on the left and n and T being on the right.
00:12:03 * oerjan has forgotten what n and R might be.
00:12:21 <shachaf> n is the number of things you have or something.
00:12:33 <shachaf> R is just a constant equal to PV/nT
00:12:35 <orin> n is number of moles
00:12:49 <oerjan> if you want to make a good mnemonic, you need to be a good PVnTR, hth
00:13:33 <orin> R is the ideal gas constant
00:13:35 <shachaf> oerjan is right, n is silly.
00:14:35 <shachaf> There isn't even an equation. R is silly.
00:14:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `metar' failed with: <<timeout>>
00:15:07 <oerjan> `learn Mole is a unit for measuring large numbers of burrowing teeth.
00:15:09 <shachaf> Just remember: PV/T is constant.
00:15:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'mole': Mole is a unit for measuring large numbers of burrowing teeth.
00:17:08 <shachaf> boily: Are you in Montréal?
00:17:27 <shachaf> What do you think of Montréal-style bagels?
00:17:38 <boily> they are the best in the world.
00:17:45 <shachaf> Apparently the ones at http://www.beautysbagelshop.com/ are "Montreal-inspired".
00:18:11 <oerjan> `slwd mole//s/a/an SI/
00:18:13 <HackEgo> wisdom/mole//Mole is an SI unit for measuring large numbers of burrowing teeth.
00:18:31 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, let's not forget new york bagels, yo
00:18:37 <shachaf> oerjan: Is it really a unit?
00:19:26 <shachaf> Well, when boily is in the bay area, he can try those Oakland bagels and compare.
00:19:40 <shachaf> I had some scow bagels today so I'm a bit irritated.
00:22:49 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm pretty sure that mole is an SI unit, yes
00:23:05 <oerjan> an officially fundamental one, even.
00:23:30 <oerjan> or basic, whatever the word is.
00:24:02 <oerjan> (fun fact, if you try to write i'm with your fingers misplaced, you get just o hth)
00:24:22 <oerjan> no, that's an SI prefix i think
00:24:44 <oerjan> also, mole is abbreviated mol iirc
00:24:51 <shachaf> Isn't mole more like k than K?
00:25:24 <shachaf> I guess you don't say "a mole of atoms", just "a mole".
00:25:36 <oerjan> of course you'd say a mole of atoms.
00:26:22 <oerjan> of course it's a number. but it's used as a unit.
00:26:54 <oerjan> k isn't used as a unit. you cannot use it without a following unit.
00:27:11 <shachaf> You can't use mol without a following unit either, can you?
00:27:21 <shachaf> A mole of atoms. Not just a mole.
00:27:22 <oerjan> what follows mol isn't an SI unit.
00:27:36 <oerjan> you're obviously trolling, anyway.
00:27:45 <shachaf> I think SI is the one that's trolling.
00:27:55 <shachaf> It makes no sense to call mole a unit.
00:27:59 <shachaf> But whatever. I'll call it a unit.
00:28:19 <oerjan> shachaf: it's perfectly rational when you consider its origin in chemistry.
00:28:43 <shachaf> Even in chemistry it's just a multiplier of some thing.
00:29:09 <oerjan> i cannot say whether it historically preceded knowing that it represented a number, but it's used for its chemical meaning.
00:29:15 <myname> also, you could have like a kilomole i guess, but a kilomega doesn't make sense
00:29:58 <shachaf> The chemical meaning is still not used on its own.
00:30:17 <shachaf> A mole of water or something I have no problem with.
00:30:31 <shachaf> That's a good unit. Like a kilometar.
00:31:06 <lambdabot> Plugin `metar' failed with: <<timeout>>
00:32:50 <lambdabot> Plugin `metar' failed with: <<timeout>>
00:33:06 <oerjan> i think possibly the server may have some trouble.
00:33:11 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
00:33:23 <oerjan> ok, it's not lambdabot's web access, at least.
00:33:58 <oerjan> perhaps they changed the format.
00:34:53 <oerjan> @tell int-e i think @metar has broken hth
00:35:12 * oerjan wanted to make a pun then realized he doesn't know how metar is pronounced.
00:52:16 <quintopia> i pronounce it like i pronounce "me" followed by how i pronounce "tar"
00:58:39 <oerjan> it's a bit late now, anyhow.
00:59:18 <myname> how would a broken @metar help?
00:59:37 <boily> shachaf: from their website, they look like bagels inspried by an inspiration of a "true" story.
00:59:41 <lambdabot> CYUL 162349Z 06015KT 040V100 3/4SM R06L/P6000FT/U R06R/P6000FT/U RA BR SCT008 BKN014 OVC023 19/18 A2982 RMK SF3SC4SC1 SLP101 DENSITY ALT 600FT
01:00:36 <boily> I was back at the bagel discussion. the Oakland bagels don't feel the authenticest hth
01:01:03 <boily> also, trying to make lambdie retrieve the CYUL METAR without erroring.
01:01:31 <shachaf> What about New York bagels?
01:01:48 <lambdabot> ENVA 162350Z 12005KT CAVOK 09/08 Q1023 RMK WIND 670FT 14003KT
01:02:11 <boily> shachaf: never tried them yet.
01:02:15 <oerjan> @tell int-e never mind, it was temporary. lambdabot can once again metar requirements.
01:02:17 <boily> mynamello. heretic.
01:02:29 <shachaf> when are you going to be in california, anyway
01:03:05 <boily> eeeeeh... I went there once in my lifetime, so I'd say... probably somewhere in 14 years?
01:03:34 <shachaf> oerjan: i pronounce "metar" like i pronounce "meta" followed by how i pronounce the letter "r" hth
01:04:52 <boily> I'm not old yet. I'm procrastinating like a boss on becoming old :D
01:06:58 <myname> i may borrow that approach
01:08:43 * oerjan notes that IE's url address completion is annoying whenever you actually _do_ want to visit a URL that's a prefix of an already visited one.
01:09:45 <oerjan> (in this case, wiktionary meta vs. METAR. which somehow automatically went to metaR.)
01:10:40 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't necessarily trust your pronunciation of "meta", hth
01:11:03 <oerjan> (not that i necessarily trust _anyone_'s pronunciation of METAR.)
01:11:21 <shachaf> not even dr. metar's own pronunciation?
01:11:42 <boily> I am trustable. I am sane!
01:12:43 <oerjan> i used to be good at procrastinating becoming old, but i'm afraid i may have lost the knack in recent years.
01:13:03 <oerjan> boily: i'm sure your pronunciation is perfect for french hth
01:13:24 <oerjan> so maybe i should qualify that with "in english".
01:13:53 <boily> okay, maybe my English only reaches ~0.5 quintopias...
01:15:32 <oerjan> although i've come upon strange evidence of québécois near-madness. like how you pronounce "coeur", and also a (disputed) claim you pronounce "un" rhotacized.
01:15:37 <quintopia> oerjan: certainly my pronounciification is idiolectic, but I justify it on the basis that it should start the same way as "meteorology" since that's what it's about
01:16:10 <boily> oerjan: cœur is pronounced exactly as it is written hth
01:16:20 <boily> rhotacized "un"????????
01:16:59 <oerjan> boily: i said it was disputed. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-colored_vowel#Quebec_French
01:17:47 <boily> ah! yup, perfectly agree with the hamburger example. but /œ̃/ is definitely /œ̃/.
01:18:50 <boily> https://clyp.it/lhxmjgps ← cœur.
01:18:58 <oerjan> boily: the Quebec pronunciation at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C5%93ur#Pronunciation sounds more like an /a/ than /œ/ to me
01:19:32 <boily> it glides from [a~æ] over to [œ].
01:19:40 <oerjan> yep, you do it the same way
01:21:15 <boily> oerjan: any other words your want to hear quebecquified?
01:21:53 * boily mapoles hppavilion[1] back in. "don't you dare flee"
01:22:20 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
01:22:20 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
01:22:40 * boily glares at hppavilion[1]
01:22:50 <hppavilion[1]> boily: You win from your POV or I win from your POV?
01:23:28 <boily> you win from here too hth
01:23:37 <boily> no, it's all technique htah
01:24:11 <zzo38> Wikipedia article for 7-Zip mentions many file formats that it can load, but there are some that I think it implements but are not listed there, such as Docfile archives.
01:24:48 <quintopia> boily: i think you used the corkscrew to snag him hth
01:25:21 <boily> I prefer the spork. less pointy.
01:28:18 <boily> I still corkscrewed hppavilion[1] nonetheless. when you need to make sure one is snagged, you corkscrew.
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01:33:30 <quintopia> If you had to guess, how much more common would you say the lowercase version of a word is versus the capitalized version on average (excluding words that are always capitalized)?
01:35:30 <oerjan> hm because of articles, most english words probably rarely occur at the beginning of a sentence.
01:36:32 <oerjan> so it would depend on how you take the average - per word lexically, or per word in usage.
01:37:02 <oerjan> for the latter, 1:100 is too low; few sentences have that many words.
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01:38:47 <oerjan> for the former, it seems hard to guess.
01:41:08 <oerjan> hm my first claim isn't exactly watertight.
01:43:14 <quintopia> 1:100 didn't seem that off to me, and as of this moment it's the only estimate i've received
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02:18:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49175&oldid=49172 * Iconmaster * (+21) /* Non-alphabetic */
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02:23:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49176 * DatCodingGuy * (+8745) Created page with "'''Stacker''' is an esoteric programming language created by Fletcher Cutting ([[User:DatCodingGuy]]) and takes inspiration from multiple languages including [[Stack Up]], C..."
02:24:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49177&oldid=49175 * DatCodingGuy * (+14) /* S */
02:27:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49178&oldid=49176 * DatCodingGuy * (+0) /* Commands */
02:27:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49179&oldid=49178 * DatCodingGuy * (+0) /* Computational Class */
02:54:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subterra]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49180 * Tripl3dogdare * (+1559) Created page with "'''Subterra''' is a [[turing tarpit|tarpit-style]] language that attempts to get as close to being a proper imperative programming language as possible within the following re..."
02:58:40 <hppavilion[1]> Obviously, the correct way to measure the length of a novel is in phonemes
03:13:52 <tswett> How many phonemes are in the word "tour"?
03:14:30 <hppavilion[1]> Why is there a movie called "The Keyboard", and why is it considered one of the 15 greatest works of art of all time by the Vatican?
03:14:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subterra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49181&oldid=49180 * Tripl3dogdare * (+139) Added Collatz sequence example
03:14:55 <tswett> I agree that the word "tour" has a phoneme in it.
03:16:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49182&oldid=49179 * DatCodingGuy * (+0) /* Commands */
03:18:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: If you want to say it like "too-er", you can argue that the "er" is there because "tour" is somehow a corrupted agent noun, but that's kind of pushing it
03:18:46 <tswett> Sounds like you're talking about syllables.
03:19:56 <tswett> Well, "tour" has two phonemes at the very least: there's "t", and one or two in "our".
03:23:09 <zzo38> What does "corrupted agent noun" mean?
03:24:30 <tswett> How many morphemes are in "human being"?
03:25:15 <tswett> And "one Pokemon" and "six Pokemon"?
03:27:38 <tswett> "Human" is definitely 1.
03:28:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subterra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49183&oldid=49181 * Tripl3dogdare * (+107) Added factorial example
03:31:25 <tswett> But the word "human" isn't related to "man".
03:32:13 <tswett> Lemme think, there's a word for that.
03:35:34 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_etymology - or reanalysis.
03:37:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subterra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49184&oldid=49183 * Tripl3dogdare * (-14) Clarified warning
03:38:38 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm not claiming that "human" has such an etymology; I frankly don't care and am deciding to make it hu+man
03:42:15 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, a better name is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-formation
03:49:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49185&oldid=49182 * DatCodingGuy * (+257) /* Examples */
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03:56:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49186&oldid=49185 * DatCodingGuy * (+134) /* Notes */
03:56:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subterra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49187&oldid=49184 * Tripl3dogdare * (+0) /* Computational Class */
04:00:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49188&oldid=49186 * DatCodingGuy * (+358) /* Examples */
04:00:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49189&oldid=49188 * DatCodingGuy * (+2) /* Examples */
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04:11:05 <HackEgo> 1287) <zzo38> I told someone to tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU.
04:12:20 <oerjan> `sled quotes//1287/s,I.*,[...] & [...],
04:12:21 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 5: unknown command: `/'
04:12:31 <oerjan> `sled quotes//1287s,I.*,[...] & [...],
04:12:33 <HackEgo> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he shou
04:12:40 <HackEgo> 1287) <zzo38> [...] I told someone to tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU. [...]
04:13:01 <HackEgo> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
04:13:14 <shachaf> what, you can't quote part of a line of irc now?
04:13:26 <HackEgo> Your mysterious pronounced zombie oeverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
04:13:47 <oerjan> also, what do you mean "now"
04:13:58 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#zombie#fascist#
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04:32:57 <oerjan> <shachaf> I wonder how much health care would cost me if I bought it by myself. <-- an arm and a leg hth
04:36:38 <Jafet> your remaining arm and leg
04:37:02 <shachaf> Is it really that expensive?
04:38:00 <zzo38> There is some variant of "cantrip" of Magic: the Gathering cards, including some variant I made up.
04:38:06 <zzo38> As well as common "Draw a card" cantrip, variants can also be done such as "Draw a card at the beginning of the next upkeep", "You may draw a card", "Opponent draw a card", and "Draw a card if you have less than [number] cards in your hand".
04:38:24 <Jafet> it seems that most people complain about the high costs of sick care, not health care
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04:55:14 <quintopia> Jafet: to be sure, health care is quite expensive too, but a lot of insurance plans cover such routine maintenance by default
04:55:24 <HackEgo> [U+0195 LATIN SMALL LETTER HV]
04:56:02 <shachaf> Insurance covering routine maintenance is a bit odd.
04:57:32 <Jafet> it's probably cheaper for the insurer
05:01:13 <shachaf> I haven't been to a doctor in years.
05:01:20 <shachaf> I probably should go occasionally, really.
05:27:27 <shachaf> Looks like if I bought health insurance myself, there would be an upper bound of ~$10k/year, maybe a little more or less than that, on premiums+out of pocket maximum.
05:34:51 <shachaf> they're extraordinary / so better be wary / because they come in every shape and size
05:39:27 <oerjan> i guess you're not speaking about cubes.
05:39:57 <HackEgo> Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
05:41:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/cube//Cubes come in all sizes, colors, and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however.
05:42:10 <shachaf> Black cubes come in all sizes and materials, but only one shape and color.
05:42:30 <shachaf> Large black plastic cubes come in all, but only one shape, size, color, and material.
05:42:54 <oerjan> cubic meters, despite the description, come in several shapes, materials and colors, but only one size.
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05:45:27 <shachaf> What shape are cubic metars?
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07:03:30 <lambdabot> CYYZ 170500Z 30008KT 15SM SCT250 19/16 A3005 RMK CI3 SLP175 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
07:06:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49190&oldid=49189 * DatCodingGuy * (+210) /* Examples */
07:13:49 <lambdabot> KOAK 170559Z 31009KT 10SM BKN005 14/13 A2990 RMK AO2 T01390128
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07:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49191&oldid=49190 * DatCodingGuy * (-807) /* Computational Class */
07:27:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stacker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49192&oldid=49191 * DatCodingGuy * (+4) /* Computational Class */
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07:47:51 <zzo38> Do you like the "Lewis Carroll" Magic: the Gathering card that I made up?
07:52:02 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php?do=card&id=Lewis+Carroll
07:53:15 <shachaf> You need to tap Lewis Carroll to activate the ability. Then why is it useful for it to get first strike? Are you expecting to use this ability after blocking?
07:53:51 <shachaf> What happens when one creature out of a band gets first strike?
07:54:32 <zzo38> That creature deals damage during the first strike step and not during the normal strike step.
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07:55:12 <zzo38> Yes you can use that ability after blocking, or even during the declare attackers step while attacking if you gie it vigilance somehow.
07:55:31 <shachaf> Or if you untap it, of course.
07:55:50 <zzo38> Yes, that too, I forgot that
07:55:52 <shachaf> What sort of deck would you use this card in?
07:56:20 <zzo38> I don't know; possibly one with Pearled Unicorn.
07:56:49 <zzo38> (Read the Gatherer comments for Pearled Unicorn and then you can learn.)
07:57:07 <zzo38> (Also read my new "bands with other" rules, which are necessary for this to work properly.)
08:00:25 <zzo38> This "Lewis Carroll" card may be to add to a unofficial sequel of "Legends" set, possibly (it could also to reprint Pearled Unicorn with the same text, which mentions Lewis Carroll); such sequel should be to design to be included in a block draft with original Legends to improve the draft/sealed game.
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08:12:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49193&oldid=46846 * 144.36.114.154 * (+33) fixed text
08:15:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49194&oldid=49193 * Oerjan * (-33) Undo revision 49193 by [[Special:Contributions/144.36.114.154|144.36.114.154]] ([[User talk:144.36.114.154|talk]]) (I'm doubtful.)
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12:04:24 <boily> `relcome DatCodingGuy
12:04:30 <HackEgo> DatCodingGuy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
12:04:54 <boily> mornings are oftentimes quiet here.
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17:02:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dorissominever * New user account
17:03:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mdsfsdf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49197 * Dorissominever * (+7) Created page with "dfgsdfg"
17:04:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABC KA MATLAB = ABE = BAGA === CHUTIYA=== 1 8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks support phone number Quickbooks number Quickbooks phone number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49198 * Dorissominever * (+7560) Created page with "ABC KA MATLAB = ABE = BAGA === CHUTIYA=== 1 888 513 5978 Quickbooks support phone number Quickbooks number Quickbooks phone number Qui
17:05:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B c.a.l.l @ 1-8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 @ Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r @ Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.o.s s.u..p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49199 * Dorissominever * (+11977) Created page with "1 888 513 5978 quickbooks tech support number quickbooks customer support number q u i c k b o o k s t e c h n i c a
17:06:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI +¦$÷1.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8 .quickbooks payroll tech su.ppo.rt. ph.one .nu.mb.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49200 * Dorissominever * (+10877) Created page with "PML +¦$÷1888-513-5978 quickbooks payroll tech support phone number Asked by Babu a moment ago Phone Number, QuickBooks PRO Customer Support Number,@@@@ QuickBooks PRO Custom..."
17:08:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ 1.8.8..8.~.5.1.3~.5.9.7.8 .Quickbooks phone number, Quickbooks technical support, number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49201 * Dorissominever * (+18515) Created page with "Call 1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical support number,1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical help contact number,1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical support contact number,1888-51.
17:08:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B c.a.l.l @ 1-8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 @ Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r @ Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u..p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49202 * Dorissominever * (+29563) Created page with "QuickBooks Pro Phone number 1888!!513!!5978 Quickbooks Pro Technical Support Phone Number Quickbooks Pro Customer Support
17:08:58 * FireFly prods fizzie about the spam
17:09:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ 1.8.8..8.~.5.1.3~.5.9.7.8 .Quickbooks p.ho.n.e n.um.b.er., Quickbooks te.c.h.ni.c.al. su.pp.o.r.t., .n.u.m.b..e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49203 * Dorissominever * (+18515) Created page with "Call 1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical support number,1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical help contact number,1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical suppor
17:10:14 <myname> why would you spam a phone number somewhere
17:10:56 <FireFly> I don't know, but they must earn a lot for doing it considering how persistent they seem to be
17:11:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ Call .1.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-5.9.7.8 .qu.ickbooks t.e.ch.n.i.c.a.l .s.u.p.p.or.t. .n.u.m.b.er.,.1.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. quickbooks tech.n.i.c.al h.el.p .cont.a.ct. .n.u.m.be.r,]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49204 * Dorissominever * (+10884) Created page with "USA@JEETôßPππu◙ 1 888 513 5978 Quickbooks Support PhonE Number..,Ω»Γ╚╚☻☻ô
17:13:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ Call .1.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-5.9.7.8 U.S.A.@J.E.E.T.ô.ß.P.π.π.u.◙ .1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3.. .5.9.7.8. .Q.u.ickbooks Supp.o.r.t .Phon.E .Num.b.er.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49205 * Dorissominever * (+23798) Created page with "™+Describe™+Quickboks™+SuPport™+18885135978 Quickbooks Tech Support Phone Number Quickbooks here ™+Describe™+Qui
17:15:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~™+D.e.s.c.ri.b.e.™+Quickboks™+Su.Pp.o.r.t™+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Quickbooks Te.ch. Sup.p.ort .Ph.on.e N.u.mb.e.r Quickbooks h.e.re]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49206 * Dorissominever * (+15136) Created page with "ABke Barsss('(;'(;+ 1888-513-5978 +;)';)')QuickBooks PRO support phone Number USA Quickbooks payroll tech support number, Quick
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17:17:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~;'(;+ 1.8..8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8 +;)';)')QuickBooks PRO .sup.por.t. pho.ne. Nu.mbe.r .USA. Quickbooks pa.yrol.l t.ech .supp.o.rt .num..ber]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49207 * Dorissominever * (+11019) Created page with "USA ACCOUNTS@1-888-513-5978(( )) QuickBooks Payroll Tech Support Phone Number,QuickBooks Technical Support USA ACCOUNTS@1-888-
17:19:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 QuickBooks™@+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 PAYROLL Tech Support Phone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49208 * Dorissominever * (+9016) Created page with "KMML ++¦$÷1888-513-5978 quickbooks Assisted support phone number KMML ++¦$÷1888-513-5978 quickbooks Assisted support phone number KMML ++¦$÷1888-513-5978 quickbooks Assi..
17:19:25 -!- AlexR42 has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:19:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QuickBooks1. .8..8.8. .5.1.3. .5.9.7.8. .P.RO. .T.e..c.hn.i..c.a.l.+S.u.p.p.o.r.t. .P.h.o.n.e+.+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49209 * Dorissominever * (+11019) Created page with "USA ACCOUNTS@1-888-513-5978(( )) QuickBooks Payroll Tech Support Phone Number,QuickBooks Technical Support USA ACCOUNTS@1-888-513-5978(( )) QuickBooks Payroll Tech Support P
17:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Dorissominever * uploaded "[[File:Quickbooksd8.jpg]]": Laung_da_Lachkar1._.8.8.8._.5.1.3._.5.9.7.8._.Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S._.t.e.c.h._.s..u.p.p.o.r.t._..p.h.o.n.e._.n.u.m.b..e.r._.1.._.8..8.8._.5.1.3._.5..9.7..8_..Q.U.I..C.K.B..O.O.K.S._..t..e.c..h._.S..u.p.p..o.r..t._N.u..m.b.e..r. Help@Call 1-888-513-5978...
17:25:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Avi 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Quick.Books P.A.Y.R.O.L.L. t..ec.h. .s.u.p.po.r.t. .n.u.m.b.e.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49211 * Dorissominever * (+10797) Created page with "Avi~~~ 1.888.513.5978 QuickBooks™ PAYROLL tech support number Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s (1-888.513-5978) Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.a.y.r.o.l.l s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Hel..."
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17:30:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Dorissominever * uploaded "[[File:C.H.O.T.A B.H.I.M. ) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.e.r.v.i.c.e p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r.jpg]]": Laung_da_Lachkar1._.8.8.8._.5.1.3._.5.9.7.8._.Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S._.t.e.c.h._.s..u.p.p.o.r.t._..p.h.o.n.e._.n.u.m.b..e.r.
17:31:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.A.Y.R.O.L.L.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49213 * Dorissominever * (+9016) Created page with "KMML ++¦$÷1888-513-5978 quickbooks Assisted support phone number KMML ++¦$÷1888-513-5978 quickbooks Assisted support phone number KMML ++¦$÷
17:34:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Laung da Lachkar1. .8.8.8. .5.1.3. .5.9.7.8. .Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S. .t.e.c.h. .s..u.p.p.o.r.t. ..p.h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b..e.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49214 * Dorissominever * (+198923) Created page with "Laung_da_Lachkar1._.8.8.8._.5.1.3._.5.9.7.8._.Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S._.t.e.c.h._.s..u.p.p.o.r.t._..p.h.o.n.e._.n.u.m.b..e.r._.1.._.8..8.8._.5.1.3._.5
17:35:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ .1.8.8.8..-.5.1.3.-.5..9.7.8 quickbooks t.e.c.hn.i.c.a.l. s.u.p.p.o.r.t. n.u.m.b..er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49215 * Dorissominever * (+18515) Created page with "Call 1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical support number,1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical help contact number,1888-513-5978 quickbooks technical support contact number,1888-51..."
17:35:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI !!!1.8..8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8 Quickbooks p.a.y.r.o.l.l te.ch. .H.e.lp.. D.e.s.k .P.h.o.n.e. ..Nu.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49216 * Dorissominever * (+9870) Created page with "Quickbooks payroll tech Support((1888 513 5978)) Customer Service for Install, Update & Troubleshoot Quickbooks payroll tech Phone Number)))) 1-888-513-5978 ((((Qui
17:35:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1.-.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-5.9.7.8./...Q.uickbooks e.r.r.or. 2.4./7. .s.up.po.r.t. .p.h.on..e .n.u.m.b.e.r.,.Q..uic.k.b.o.ok.s. .e.rr.o.r. .te.l.e.p.h..on.e. n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49217 * Dorissominever * (+12419) Created page with "$$ Shairka*** Quickbooks error Support Phone Number 1.888.513.5978 Quickbooks error pro phone number usaQuickb
17:35:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1.-.8..8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8 .Q.uickbooks pay.r.o.l.lS.u.p.po.r.t .p.h.on.e. .n.u.mber .1. .8.8.8 .5.1.3 .5.9...7.8 .Quickboo.k.s. .p.a.yro.l.l.Su.p.p.ort. .P.H.ON.E. .N..u.m.be.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49218 * Dorissominever * (+12403) Created page with "Quickbooks payrollSupport 1-888-513-5978 Quickbooks payrollSupport phone number USA@JEETôÃ
17:36:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.a.y.r.o.l.l.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49219 * Dorissominever * (+9016) Created page with "KMML ++¦$÷1888-513-5978 quickbooks Assisted support phone number KMML ++¦$÷1888-513-5978 quickbooks Assisted support phone number KMML ++¦$÷
17:37:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KIMKIM .C.H..I.N.I. .1....8...8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. q.u.i.c.k.b..o.o..k.s. ..e.n.t..e.r.p..r.i..s.e. .t.e..c.h. ..s.u.p..p.o.r.t.. .p..h.o.n.e.. .n.u..m.be.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49220 * Dorissominever * (+10050) Created page with "Quickbooks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Number(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.p.p.o.r.t Ph.one
17:38:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:41:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Laung da Lachkar1. .8.8.8. .5.1.3. .5.9.7.8. .Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S. .t.e.c.h. .s..u.p.p.o.r.t. ..p.h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b..e.r. .1.. .8..8.8. .5.1.3. .5..9.7..8 ..Q.U.I..C.K.B..O.O.K.S. ..t..e.c..h. .S..u.p.p..o.r..t. N.u..m.b.e..r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49221 * Dorissominever * (+198923) Created page with "Laung_da_Lachkar1._.8.8.8._.5.1.3._.5.9.7.
17:43:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.U.I.C.K..B.0.0..K.S.*.!!!!!*@1.8.8.8...5.1.3...5.9.7.8.).))*!!*Qu.i.c.k.b.o.o..k.s. .P.a.yr..o.l.l....S.u.p.p..o.r.t..Q.u.i.c..k.B.o.o.k..s]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49222 * Dorissominever * (+11910) Created page with "QUICKB00K*!!!!!*@1.888.513.5978)))*!!*Quickbooks Payroll.SupportQuickBooks?PAYROLL.CUSTOMER.Support phone Number CANADA.Quickbook
17:47:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[®¶¶¶¥¥¤¤¤ÞQ.u.ic..k.b.o.o.k..s. .c..u.s.t.o..m.e.r. .s.u..p.p.o.r..t. .n.u.m.b.e.r®¶¶¶¥¥¤¤¤Þ 1. .8.8.8. .5..1.3 .5..9.7.8. ..Q.u..i.c.k.b.oo.k.s.. .c.u.st..o.m.er.. .s...u.p.p.o.r..t. .p.h.o.n.e.. .n.u..m.b.e..r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49223 * Dorissominever * (+18311) Created page with "Quickbooks customer support number 1 88
17:50:48 <orin> 1888? that's a toll free number isn't it?
17:53:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[P.h.o.n..e. .n.u..m.b.e.r.C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t. .P.h.o..n.e.n.u.m.b.e..r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49224 * Dorissominever * (+15274) Created page with "P.h.o.n..e. .n.u..m.b.e.r.C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t. .P.h.o..n.e.n.u.m.b
17:54:24 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined.
17:55:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t. .P.h.o..n.e.n.u.m.b.e..r. .C..a.l..l. .1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. Quickbooks Er.r.o.r.P.h.o.n.e.n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49225 * Dorissominever * (+14832) Created page with "Describe Account Help Intuit.@ ((1-888-513-5978@ Quickbooks Error tech Support number Quickbooks Error pro 201
17:58:26 <orin> Maybe I'll call them
17:58:40 <orin> it's toll free after all
17:58:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49226 * Dorissominever * (+12465) Created page with "Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c
17:59:24 <moonythedwarf_> Its a spammer. someone delete the pages. i dont have permission to. so someone needs to
18:03:06 <moonythedwarf_> is there some sort of delete template i can use to mark them for deleting?
18:04:11 <orin> Hmm... what if we move them all to the same name
18:04:26 <orin> like deletethis
18:04:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Orenwatson * moved [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] to [[Deletethis]]
18:05:23 <orin> that won't work
18:05:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Moon * moved [[Q.B c.a.l.l @ 1-8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 @ Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r @ Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u..p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] to [[Deletethis2]]
18:10:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Dorissominever * moved [[Deletethis]] to [[Talk:Deletethis]]: wrwq
18:11:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49233&oldid=48922 * Albedo * (+3632) /* Available instructions in beeswax */ New section: Important notes about bee creation and bee execution order
18:12:16 <shachaf> I don't think you're helping.
18:12:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49234&oldid=49233 * Albedo * (+0) /* Important notes about bee creation and bee execution order */
18:13:47 <orin> shachaf: Well I've contacted Intuit (they make QuickBooks) about the spam
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18:19:20 <orin> hppavilellon[1]
18:21:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks error t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49235 * Dorissominever * (+12472) Created page with "Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks error t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks
18:28:59 <orin> @tell fizzie we need to implement a wikibot that deletes any page with the word Quickbooks on it
18:30:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks p.r.o. t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49236 * Dorissominever * (+5274) Created page with "QuickBooks pro help desk number ((1.888.513.5978)) QuickBooks pro tech support Phone number QuickBooks pro He
18:33:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks premier t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49237 * Dorissominever * (+9407) Created page with "(1.8.8.8.513.5978)Quickbooks Tech Support Number Quickbooks Customer Support Number Q-u-i-c-k-b-o-o-k-s T-e-
18:37:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QBTSNQBB1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S.t.e.c.h.s..u.p.p.o.r.t.p.h.o.n.e.n.u.m.b..e.r.1.8..8.8.5.1.3.5..9.7.8.Q.U.I..C.K.B..O.O.K.S.t..e.c.h.S..u.p.p.o.rt.N.u..m.b.e..r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49238 * Dorissominever * (+198876) Created page with "QBTSNQBB1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S.t.e.c.h.s..u.p.p.o.r.t.p.h.o.n.e.n.u.m
18:40:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49239 * Dorissominever * (+21342) Created page with "Call 1888-513-5978 QUICKBOOKS pRO technical support number,1888-513-5978 QUICKBOOKS pRO technical help contact number,1888-513-5978 QUICKBOOKS pRO techni
18:41:00 <orin> Actually maybe we should ban the whole ip address range containing Doris
18:42:12 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinless_twin is written like an advertisement?
18:43:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.ic..k.B.o.o.k.s. .p...r.o. .h.e.l.p. .d..e.s.k. .n.u.m.b.e.r. .(.(.1...8.7.7...2.4.2...6.5.1.8.).). .Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o..ks. .p.r.o. .t.e.c.h. .s.u..p.p.o.r.t. .P.h.o.n..e. .n.u.m..b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49240 * Dorissominever * (+5271) Created page with "QuickBooks pro help desk number ((1.877.242.6518)) QuickBooks pro tech support Phone
18:43:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.me..r s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49241 * Dorissominever * (+23954) Created page with "1 888 513 5978 quickbooks tech support number quickbooks customer support number q u i c k b o o k s t e c h n i c a l l support
18:44:04 <hppavilion[1]> Start calling the numbers, figure out who owns it, send personal threats
18:44:46 <orin> hppavilion[1]: I already reported this problem to Intuit (the company that makes quickbooks)
18:45:02 <hppavilion[1]> orin: And you think they aren't the ones doing it?
18:45:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QPML++Q.u.ic..k.B.o.o.k.s. .p...r.o. .h.e.l.p. .d..e.s.k. .n.u.m.b.e.r. .(.(.1...8.7.7...2.4.2...6.5.1.8.).). .Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o..ks. .p.r.o. .t.e.c.h. .s.u..p.p.o.r.t. .P.h.o.n..e. .n.u.m..b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49242 * Dorissominever * (+5271) Created page with "QuickBooks pro help desk number ((1.877.242.6518)) QuickBooks pro tech support
18:45:18 <orin> hppavilion[1]: no
18:45:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49243 * Dorissominever * (+23846) Created page with "[1? ?888? ?513? ?5978]QuickBooks™ PRO technical support phone number [1? ?888? ?513? ?5978]QuickBooks™ PRO technical support phone number [1? ?888? ?513? ?5978]QuickBo
18:47:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MUNNA ++Q.u.ic..k.B.o.o.k.s. .p...r.o. .h.e.l.p. .d..e.s.k. .n.u.m.b.e.r. .(.(.1...8.7.7...2.4.2...6.5.1.8.).). .Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o..ks. .p.r.o. .t.e.c.h. .s.u..p.p.o.r.t. .P.h.o.n..e. .n.u.m..b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49244 * Dorissominever * (+5271) Created page with "QuickBooks pro help desk number ((1.877.242.6518)) QuickBooks pro tech suppo
18:48:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49245 * Dorissominever * (+23955) Created page with "+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r[1? ?888? ?513? ?5978]QuickBooks™ PRO technical su
18:49:31 <FireFly> orin: if you call them, then the spam worked :P
18:50:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Dorissominever * uploaded "[[File:Q.B 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.me..r s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a.jpg]]": QuickBooks Pro support Phone number 1888!!513!!5978 Quickbooks Pro Technical Support Phone Number Quickbooks Pro Customer Support Number QB
18:50:09 <FireFly> I wouldn't call them either way
18:50:13 <FireFly> and no, that is a terrible suggestion
18:51:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49247 * Dorissominever * (+23846) Created page with "[1? ?888? ?513? ?5978]QuickBooks™ PRO technical support phone number [1? ?888? ?513? ?5978]QuickBooks™ PRO technical support phone number [1? ?888? ?513? ?5978
18:51:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49248&oldid=49247 * Dorissominever * (-14619)
18:54:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49249 * Dorissominever * (+14230) Created page with "Quickbooks Customer Support Phone NUmber cuber, Quickbooksstomer service contact number, Quickbooks Pro official number, Quickbooks Pro official conta
18:55:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Desala KutTTA Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49250 * Dorissominever * (+15335) Created page with "Desala KutTTA Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r ((1.8.8.
19:05:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sanjeevtomer27 * New user account
19:06:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crusetome1606 * New user account
19:06:27 -!- byteflame has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:08:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CAll Now«» ¥ ¥1.8.0.0860+9230 ¥ ¥Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49251 * Sanjeevtomer27 * (+12307) Created page with "call 1800-860-9230@./QuickBooks contact number, QuickBooks contact phone number, QuickBooks contact telephone number,,teleph
19:08:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shirleypittsberg * New user account
19:09:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49252&oldid=49249 * Crusetome1606 * (-114)
19:10:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks error t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49253&oldid=49235 * Sanjeevtomer27 * (-165)
19:11:00 <orin> oh god, they're breeding
19:11:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Desala KutTTA Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49254&oldid=49250 * Sanjeevtomer27 * (-9801)
19:12:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Desala KutTTA Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49255&oldid=49254 * Crusetome1606 * (+9619)
19:13:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.0.0860+9230 Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s h.e.l.p d.e.s.k p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t t.e.l.e.p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49256 * Sanjeevtomer27 * (+10955) Created page with "Quickbooks support++ @1-800-860-9230@ Quickbooks tech support phone number, Quickbooks cust
19:13:25 <orin> that's a different number!
19:15:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen firefly ever
19:15:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[H.E.L.P.D.E.S.K 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o 2014 S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r, Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o 2014 S.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49257 * Shirleypittsberg * (+12307) Created page with "call 1800-860-9230@./QuickBooks contact number, QuickBooks contact phone number, QuickBooks contact telep
19:17:33 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen fizzie ever
19:17:38 <orin> `seen fizzie ever
19:17:39 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not that I remember
19:17:45 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen oerjan ever
19:18:58 <orin> @tell oerjan why doesn't @seen work anymore
19:19:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49258 * Dorissominever * (+7273) Created page with "@@Call, 1-888-513-5978 for all type help by Quickbooks tech support phone number, 1888-513-5978 Intuit Quickbooks Tech Support Phone Number, 188
19:20:56 -!- orin has changed nick to \oren\.
19:21:04 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:21:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49259 * Dorissominever * (+19729) Created page with "QuickBooks PRO Support Phone Number 1-8-8-8-5-1-3-5-9-7-8 QuickBooks PRO support telephone number Call 1888-513-5978 QuickBooks PRO technical support numbe
19:22:15 <myname> what even is quickbook?
19:22:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49260 * Dorissominever * (+24325) Created page with "Intuit Help 1 - 888 - 513 - 5978 QuickBooks technical support phone number QuickBooks technical support phone number Intuit ((W(1 - 888 - 513 - 5
19:23:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[H.E.L.P.D.E.S.K 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o 2014 S.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r, Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49261 * Shirleypittsberg * (+12307) Created page with "call 1800-860-9230@./QuickBooks contact number, QuickBooks contact phone number, QuickBooks contact telephone
19:24:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Intuit 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.@.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .t.e.c.h. .s.u.p.p.o.r.t. .n.u.m..b.e.r. Q.ui.c.k.B.o.o..ks .p.r.o 2014 support phone USA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49262 * Dorissominever * (+10929) Created page with "Intuit 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.@.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .t.e.c.h. .s.u.p.p.o.r.t. .n.u.m..b.e.r. Q.ui.c.k.B.o.o..ks .p.r.o 2014 suppo
19:25:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r.S.e.r.v.i.c.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49263 * Dorissominever * (+26629) Created page with "Intuit Help 1 - 888 - 513 - 5978 QuickBooks technical support phone number QuickBooks technical support phone number Intuit ((W(1 - 888 - 513 - 5978 )) Qui
19:28:06 <int-e> \oren\: when have you ever seen @seen working? It's been disabled for several years now.
19:28:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r.S.e.r.v.i.c.e.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49264 * Dorissominever * (+14502) Created page with "Quickbooks >>>.1!!888!!!513!!!5978>>>> Quickbooks pro Tech support phone number usa@@@ Intuit quickbooks tech support phone number help Quickbook
19:29:34 <int-e> \oren\: besides, oerjan knows little about it... but basically it leaks memory, or perhaps just accumulates too much information, and lambdabot runs much smoother without it. I believe nobody really knows why (I've looked a bit at the code itself but didn't spot anything immediately suspicious).
19:29:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call 1.8..8.8..5.1.3.5.9.7.8. .Q.u.i..c.k.bo.o.k..s. .e.n.t.e.r.p.r.i..s.e. .s.u.p.p.o.r..t. .n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49265 * Dorissominever * (+23265) Created page with "QPML+ QBTSPN Call 1888-513-5978 Quickbooks enterprise support number,1888-513-5978 Quickbooks enterprise support help contact number,1888-513-5978 Quickbooks enterpr
19:31:20 <int-e> \oren\: afair `seen stopped working when HackEgo moved away from the codu server (which now no longer updates its logs anyway)
19:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49266 * Dorissominever * (+20995) Created page with "Pro=1.8.8.8*513(5978***QuickBooks pro support phone Number QuickBooks pro phone Number Pro=1.8.8.8*513(5978***QuickBooks pro support phone Number QuickBooks pro
19:32:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GURUJI qu.i.c.k.bo.o.k.s. He.l.p. d.e.s.k. .p.h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.97.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.ks. p.r.o. s.u.p.p.o.r.t. n..u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49267 * Dorissominever * (+18474) Created page with "GURUJI qu.i.c.k.bo.o.k.s. He.l.p. d.e.s.k. .p.h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.97.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.ks. p.r.o. s.u.p.p.o.r.
19:32:47 <\oren\> int-e: it worked when I was in university
19:33:01 -!- impomatic_ has joined.
19:33:17 <int-e> oh, 'Dorissominever' made an innocuous (if useless) first edit... :-/
19:33:36 <\oren\> Maybe I should make my own bot
19:35:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QPML +¦$÷1.8.8.8-5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. quickbooks technical help phone number, quickbooks technical help contact number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49268 * Dorissominever * (+18474) Created page with "GURUJI qu.i.c.k.bo.o.k.s. He.l.p. d.e.s.k. .p.h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.97.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.ks. p.r.o. s.u.p.p.o.r.t. n..u.m.b.er. QPML +¦$
19:37:15 <int-e> and that's what @seen maps to currently.
19:37:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QPML +¦$÷1.8.8.8-5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. qu.i.c..k.b.o.o.ks te.c.h.n..ical help ph.o.n.e .nu..m.ber, qu.i.c.k.b.o..o.ks tech.n.i..c.al hel.p. co.n.t.a.ct num.be.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49269 * Dorissominever * (+18473) Created page with "GURUJI qu.i.c.k.bo.o.k.s. He.l.p. d.e.s.k. .p.h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.97.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.ks. p.r
19:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> @leet Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
19:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
19:37:48 <lambdabot> four 5(0rE and S3\/En YEaRz 4G0 0Ur fa7hErz BROUghT fOR7H 0N T|-|IS coN+iNEnt, 4 n3W N4Ti0n, cOnCEived in |i8ER7Y, And deDI(4TED tu 7|-|3 PrOp0$ITi0N Th4T 4L1 /\/\eN AR3 CR3a+3d 3QU4l.
19:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have
19:37:54 <hppavilion[1]> thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the
19:41:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[USA 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. Q.u.ic.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks pro p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49270 * Dorissominever * (+6749) Created page with "USA 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. Q.u.ic.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks pro p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r USA here.Describe @@Ho
19:41:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.me..r s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49271 * Dorissominever * (+29782) Created page with "QB call @ 1-8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 @ Quickbooks P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t Number @ Quickbooks p.o.s s.u..p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e numbe
19:44:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C.A.L.L p.r.o c.us.tom.er S.e.r.v.i.c.e for q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49272 * Dorissominever * (+8200) Created page with "C.A.L.L p.r.o c.us.tom.er S.e.r.v.i.c.e for q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r c.a.r.e P.
19:44:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quick.bo.oks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Nu.m.ber(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Quic.kbo.oks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.p.p.o.r.t Ph.one Nu.mb.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49273 * Dorissominever * (+10222) Created page with "Quickbooks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Number(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.p.p.o.r.t Ph.one Number 1-888-513-5978 Q.u
19:46:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h..o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49274 * Dorissominever * (+10795) Created page with "Quickbooks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Number(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.p.p.o.r.t Ph.one Num
19:49:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49275 * Dorissominever * (+195258) Created page with "Quickbooks H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Quic
19:51:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[I.n.t.u.i.t..1.-.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8.@.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .t.e.c.h. .s.u.p.p.o.r.t. .n.u.m..b.e.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49276 * Dorissominever * (+10893) Created page with "I.n.t.u.i.t..1.-.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8.@.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .t.e.c.h. .s.u.p.p.o.r.t. .n.u.m..b.e.r. QuickBooks pro 2014 support phone USA, payroll support here
19:51:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KUT!!KUT Q.u.i.c.k..b.o.o.k.s p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3..5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k..b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49277 * Dorissominever * (+10879) Created page with "KUT!!KUT Q.u.i.c.k..b.o.o.k.s p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3..5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k..b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.u.
19:51:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™@.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49278 * Dorissominever * (+5396) Created page with "Quickbooks pro TECH SUPPORT NUMBER!!))))1 8-8-8-513-5978!!((Quickbooks pro Customer Support Phone NUmber cuber, Quickbooksstomer service contact number, Quickbooks
19:53:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KUT!!KUT (. 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49279 * Dorissominever * (+19167) Created page with "(. 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r. Intuit@(1.888.513.5978)Quickbooks POS Tech Supp
19:54:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+Los Angeles1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49280 * Dorissominever * (+5347) Created page with "QuickBooks pro help desk number ((1.888.513.5978)) QuickBooks pro tech support Phone number QuickBooks pro Help desk phone number ((1-888-513-5
19:54:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AV 1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. .5.9.7.8 Quickbooks s.upp.o.r.t. p.hon.e. n.um.b.e.r. G.e.t. .Ins.ta.n.t .Hel.p .U.s.a. &. .Ca.n.a..d.a .a.t. .1.. 8.8..8. .5.1.3. .5.9..7.8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49281 * 122.162.143.144 * (+44301) Created page with "Quickbooks >>>.1!!888!!!513!!!5978>>>> Quickbooks Techsupport phone number usa@@@ Intuit quickbooks tech su
19:56:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KUT!!KUT Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o..k.s T.e.c.h. S.u.p.p.or.t N.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s T.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n..e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49282 * Dorissominever * (+65370) Created page with "QuickBooks Tech Support Number 1 888 513 5978 QuickBooks Tech Support Phone Number 1 888 513 5978 QuickBooks Technical S
19:57:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chicago 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49283 * Dorissominever * (+8772) Created page with "Quickbooks™ enterprise support phone number((®1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks enterprise technical support phone number Quickbooks Support n
19:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49284 * Dorissominever * (+198826) Created page with "Quickbooks H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e
19:58:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AV 1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. .5.9.7.8 Quickbooks s.upp.o.r.t. p.hon.e. n.um.b.e.r. G.e.t. .Ins.ta.n.t .Hel.p . .Ca.n.a..d.a .a.t. .1.. 8.8..8. .5.1.3. .5.9..7.8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49285 * 122.162.143.144 * (+73835) Created page with "Quickbooks >>>.1!!888!!!513!!!5978>>>> Quickbooks Techsupport phone number usa@@@ Intuit quickbooks tech support pho
19:58:29 <shachaf> OK, I'm going to /ignore HackEgo again.
19:58:45 <hppavilion[1]> The black hat/white hat/gray hat system is really not befitting of hackers
19:58:45 <shachaf> @tell oerjan please remind me to unignore HackEgo when the spam is over twh
19:59:20 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, hackers should use 0xRRGGBB to designate their hat
20:00:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CAll Now«» ¥ ¥1.8.0.0860+9230 ¥ ¥Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49286&oldid=49251 * Dorissominever * (+185667)
20:00:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[San Diego 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49287 * Dorissominever * (+11433) Created page with "Intuit@(1-888-513-5978)Quickbooks Tech Support Phone Number provides online solution for all USA/CANADA clients. For any help of query
20:00:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.8.8513+5978 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49288 * Dorissominever * (+11091) Created page with "Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.8.8513+5978 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r
20:00:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI-- 1.+8.8.8=.5.1.3.-. .5..9.7.8.Quickbooks Pro Phone number Quickbooks 1 ⫸⫷8.8.8.-.5.1.3.+.5.9.7.8 .P.r.o. .Ph.o.n.e. n.u..mber]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49289 * 122.162.143.144 * (+9793) Created page with "Quickbooks 1 ⫸1⫷888-513+5978 ⫸⫷ Quickbooks Pro Phone number ⫸⫷ 1+888=513- 5978⫸⫸Quickbooks Pro technical support Phone n
20:02:15 <hppavilion[1]> A higher R-value obviously denotes an alignment towards Red Hat
20:02:41 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined.
20:02:58 <hppavilion[1]> (environment is more general, including anti-war and such; so a hacker who only hacks terrorists would be a green-hat)
20:03:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1.8.8..8-.5.1.3.-.5..9.7..8 Quickbooks technical support, Quickbooks Custome.r. .S.e.r.vi.c.e. .P.ho.n.e. .N.u.m.be.r.,]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49290 * 122.162.143.144 * (+24560) Created page with "Quickbooks >>>.1!!888!!!513!!!5978>>>> Quickbooks Techsupport phone number usa@@@ Intuit quickbooks tech support phonenumber help Quickbooks >>>
20:03:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dallas+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49291 * Dorissominever * (+18218) Created page with "Quickbooks phone 18885135978 Quickbooks support phone number Quickbooks tech support phone number 1 888 513 5978 Quickbooks phone number ,1 888 513 5
20:03:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[H.E.L.P.D.E.S.K 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o 2014 S.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r, Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49292&oldid=49261 * Dorissominever * (+0)
20:03:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[(1.8.8.8513+5978 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49293 * Dorissominever * (+11091) Created page with "Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.8.8513+5978 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c
20:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> A white hat is full RBG, doing anything unquestionably legal
20:04:37 <hppavilion[1]> Black Hats align with no cause, just doing whatever they feel like
20:04:58 <HackEgo> U+2AF8 TRIPLE NESTED GREATER-THAN \ UTF-8: e2 ab b8 UTF-16BE: 2af8 Decimal: ⫸ \ ⫸ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+2AF7 TRIPLE NESTED LESS-THAN \ UTF-8: e2 ab b7 UTF-16BE: 2af7 Decimal: ⫷ \ ⫷ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrore
20:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> Grey Hats are where R≈B≈G, so people who don't hack for a cause
20:05:51 <int-e> shachaf: there's the trick of only ignoring messages of HackEgo that start with [wiki]... that allows even the output of `echo [wiki] because that starts with a zero-width sapce
20:06:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[San Jose+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49294 * Dorissominever * (+5721) Created page with "Describe Support USA@1866-38Quickbooks ERROR TECH SUPPORT NUMBER!!))))1 8-8-8-513-5978!!((Quickbooks ERROR Customer Support Phone NUmber c
20:06:19 <shachaf> Yes, but then I'd have to remember that trick and the /ignore syntax every time.
20:06:21 <\oren\> I dont have the characters ⫸⫷!
20:07:15 <int-e> /ignore -regexp -pattern ^\[wiki\] HackEgo
20:07:43 <shachaf> But I'll forget by next time.
20:07:46 <\oren\> int-e: how did you write a mesage with a / in the starT?
20:08:14 <int-e> as I recall it, xchat uses //foo...
20:08:42 <shachaf> irssi also supports /say /foo
20:08:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Austin+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r.S.e.r.v.i.c.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49295 * Dorissominever * (+8465) Created page with "@@Call, 1-888-513-5978 for all type help by QuickBooks Payroll tech support phone number1-888-513-5978 Intuit QuickBooks Payroll Tech Support Phone Nu
20:10:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:10:10 <\oren\> wait, back there an ip address managed to create a page!
20:10:37 <\oren\> which implies that they were able to get past the clever captcha
20:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1.8..8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. Quickbooks technical help telePhone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49296 * 122.162.143.144 * (+7464) Created page with "Quickbooks Phone Number)))) ((1-888-513-5978()) ((((Quickbooks Tech Support Phone Number @@Call, ((1-888-513-5978()) for all type help by Quickbooks tech support Phone Number,..."
20:13:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1.8..8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.kb.o.o.k.s .t..e.c.hn..i.c.a.l .h.e.lp.. t.e.l.e.P.h.o.n.e. .N.um.b..er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49297 * 122.162.143.144 * (+7464) Created page with "Quickbooks Phone Number)))) ((1-888-513-5978()) ((((Quickbooks Tech Support Phone Number @@Call, ((1-888-513-5978()) for all type help by Quickbooks tech supp
20:14:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s. 2013 S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0. q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49298 * Shirleypittsberg * (+12307) Created page with "call 1800-860-9230@./QuickBooks contact number, QuickBooks contact phone number, QuickBooks contact telephone number,,telephone
20:16:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r ⫸⫷Qu.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .S.u.p.p..o.r.t n..um.b.er⫸⫷ 1 8.88. 5.1.3. ..5.9.7.8. ⫸⫷Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s. t..e.c.h. .s..u.p.port n.u.m.b.e.r ⫸⫷]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49299 * Dorissominever * (+11037) Created page with "Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.8.8513+5978 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.
20:17:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Austin+(1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8).Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r.S.e.r.v.i.c.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49300 * Dorissominever * (+15131) Created page with "QuickBooks Support phone Number ###1 888 513 5978 QuickBooks support phone Number USA/canada QuickBooks Support phone Number ###1 888 513 5978 Qui
20:18:03 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:18:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[F.a.s.t S.u.p.p.o.r.t 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0.. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s 2013 S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r, Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s 2013 P.O.S S.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49301 * Shirleypittsberg * (+12307) Created page with "call 1800-860-9230@./QuickBooks contact number, QuickBooks contact phone number, QuickBooks contact tele
20:18:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-5.9.7.8 Intuit Quickbooks Tec.h. .Su.p.p.o.r.t.. P.h.o.n.e .N.u.m.b.e.r., 1.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8 .Q.uickbooks H.e.lp. .D.e.s.k .P.h.o.n.e. N.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49302 * 122.162.143.144 * (+14742) Created page with "call 18.8.8. .-.51.3.-..5.9.7.8.(QuickBooks technical support phone number QuickBooks phone num
20:19:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Qu..ic..k.b.o.o.k.s. .p.h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.e.r. .1.-.8.8..8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. .Q.u.i.c.k..b.ook.s. p.r.o T.e.c.h su.p.p.ort ph.o.ne n.u.mb.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49303 * Dorissominever * (+7600) Created page with "Quickbooks phone number 1-888-513-5978 Quickbooks pro Tech support phone number 18885135978 , Quickbooks pro support phone number
20:21:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[F.a.s.t S.u.p.p.o.r.t 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0.. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s 2013 P.O.S S.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r, Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s cu.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49304 * Shirleypittsberg * (+12307) Created page with "call 1800-860-9230@./QuickBooks contact number, QuickBooks contact phone number, QuickBooks contact tele
20:21:42 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.0.0860+9230 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49305 * Sanjeevtomer27 * (+17913) Created page with "QPML ╚╞$÷~~1800-860-9230 quickbooks technical help phone number 18008609230, quickbooks technical help co
20:24:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--ON 1-.8.8.8.. .+.5.1.3.+.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks PH.O.N.E. .N.U.MB.E.R. .A.N.D.. Quickbooks S.U.P.P.O..R.T. .P.H.O.N.E. .N.U.M.B.E.R.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49306 * 43.239.70.239 * (+17109) Created page with "1 888 513 888 Quickbooks customer support phone numberQuickbooks Support Helpline Number,Quickbooks contact number Quickbooks Phone numbe
20:24:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[U.S.A P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0.. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s 2013 S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r, Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s 2013 S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49307 * Shirleypittsberg * (+12307) Created page with "call 1800-860-9230@./QuickBooks contact number, QuickBooks contact phone number, QuickBooks cont
20:26:09 -!- carado has joined.
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20:28:37 <myname> i don't get why anyone would do this
20:29:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QuicU.S.A((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 دعÙ
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20:29:30 <myname> "oh, i stumbled over the service number of something on a completely unrelated wiki. i will totally call there even though i am not a customer"
20:29:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.0.0860+9230 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49310 * Sanjeevtomer27 * (+17913) Created page with "QPML ╚╞$÷~~1800-860-9230 quickbooks technical help phone number 18008609230, quickbooks technic
20:30:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@1 8-8-8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8@s.u.p.e.r.s.t.a.r R.a.j.n.i!!!!k.a.b.a.l.i@q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Nu.m.b.e.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49311 * Dorissominever * (+11440) Created page with "Describe @1 8-8-8-513-5978@superstar Rajni!!!!kabali@quickbooks Technical Support Phone Number here.Quickbooks ERROR TECH SUPPORT NU
20:31:43 <zzo38> Also how many telephone numbers do they have?
20:31:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[U.S.A((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 دعم فني قراءQ.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49312 * Dorissominever * (+18329) Created page with "QPML +¦$÷1.8.8.8-5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. quickbooks technical help phone number, quickbooks technical hel
20:33:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. .Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s. .c.us..to.m.e.r. .su.p.p.o.r.t. .p.ho.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49313 * 43.239.70.239 * (+5047) Created page with " Page 1 QB help desk 1888 513-5978 Quickbooks TECH SUPPORT PHONE NUMBER QB help desk 1888 513-5978 Quickbooks TECH SUPPORT PHONE NUMBER QB help desk 1888 513-5978 Q
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20:37:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Qui.c.k.b.o..oks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Number(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Qui.c.k.bo.oks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.p.p.o.r.t Ph.one Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49316 * Dorissominever * (+10050) Created page with "Quickbooks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Number(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.p.p.o.r.t Ph.one Number 1-888-513-5978 Q
20:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49317 * Dorissominever * (+9582) Created page with ".Quickbooks eRRoR Phone Number Call +1.888.513.5978((((((..Quickbooks eRRoR Customer Care Number Quickbooks tech Quickbooks SUpport ((® 1888+513+5978 )) Quickbooks customer c..."
20:38:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks p.r.o. .c..us.t.o.m.e.r. .s.e.r.v.i.c.e. .n.um.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49318 * 43.239.70.239 * (+10384) Created page with "Quickbooks Support 1-888-513-5978 Quickbooks Support phone number USA@JEETôßPppu? 1 888 513 5978 Quickbooks Support PHONE Number..,O»G++??ô US 1888-513-5978 quickbooks tec.
20:38:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C.a.l.l. .(.T.o.ll. .F.re.e.).+1.8.8.8. .5.1..3 .5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.Bo.o.k.s P.r.o.T.e.c.h.n.ic.a.l S.u.pp.o.rt. P.h.o.n.e. N.u.m.b.e.r. ..I.n.t.u.i.t .q.u.i.c.kB.o.o.ks. .h.e.lp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49319 * Dorissominever * (+9582) Created page with ".Quickbooks eRRoR Phone Number Call +1.888.513.5978((((((..Quickbooks eRRoR Customer Care Numb
20:39:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QBTSN QBB1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S.t.e.c.h.s..u.p.p.o.r.t.p.h.o.n.e.n.u.m.b..e.r.1.8..8.8.5.1.3.5..9.7.8.Q.U.I..C.K.B..O.O.K.S.t..e.c.h.S..u.p.p.o.rt.N.u..m.b.e..r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49320 * Dorissominever * (+198876) Created page with "QBTSNQBB1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S.t.e.c.h.s..u.p.p.o.r.t.p.h.o.n.e.n.u.
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20:40:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.o.ne.. .n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49321 * 43.239.70.239 * (+7491) Created page with "Quickbooks Tech Support Toll free Number, $$1888*513*5978$$ Quickbooks Support Telephone Number Quickbooks Support Telephone Number. (((1- 888-513-5978 ))) Quickbooks Tech Sup..."
20:41:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AA- +.1.-.8.8..8.-5..1.3.-.5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s. .P.R.O. .t.e.ch.n.i.ca.l. s.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.mb.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49322 * Dorissominever * (+7273) Created page with "@@Call, 1-888-513-5978 for all type help by Quickbooks tech support phone number, 1888-513-5978 Intuit Quickbooks Tech Support Phone Number, 1888-513-5978 Quickbook
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20:45:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C.A.L.L. .S.e.r.v.i.c.e + 1.8. 8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8. .Q.U.I.C.K.B.O.O.K.S. .s.up.p.o.r.t. .p.h..o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49323 * Dorissominever * (+19843) Created page with "CALL Service + 18 88-513-5978 QUICKBOOKS support phone number Quickbooks Customer care, service Phone Number W.i.t.t.l.y ŒœŒæŒ @@ⁿ££Call Toll Free @@
20:50:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks tech su.p.p..o.r.t. .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49324 * Dorissominever * (+39302) Created page with "Quickbooks >>>.1!!888!!!513!!!5978>>>> Quickbooks Techsupport phone number usa@@@ Intuit quickbooks tech support phonenumb
20:50:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.u.p.p.o.r.t H.e.l.p @@ 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s E.n.t.e.r.p.r.i.s.e p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r,]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49325 * Dorissominever * (+10528) Created page with "Support Help @@ 18885135978 Quickbooks Enterprise phone number,18885135978 Quickbooks Enterprise support phone number ,18885135978 Quickbooks Enterprise tech sup
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20:53:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Getyourmedz * New user account
20:55:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maahijaat * New user account
20:57:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Intuit @ ((1-88.8.-.5..13..-.5.9.7.8.@.. Qu..i.c.k.boo.k.s E.r.r..or .t.e.ch. .S.u..ppo.r.t .nu..m.ber. .Q.ui.c.k..b.o.o.k.s Er..r.or pr.o. 2014 .S.u.p.p.o..rt. .P.ho..n.e. .U.SA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49327 * Dorissominever * (+15251) Created page with "P.h.o.n..e. .n.u..m.b.e.r.C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.
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20:57:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[USA ACCOUNTS@1.88...8.51..3.5.9.7.8.(.(. )) Q.u.i.c.kb..ooks .T.e.ch Su.p..por.t Pho.n..e nu.m.b.er,Qu.i.c.k.b.ooks .E.rr.o.r Tec..h.n.i.ca.l. .S.u.p.p.o.r.t]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49329 * Dorissominever * (+15251) Created page with "P.h.o.n..e. .n.u..m.b.e.r.C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t.
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20:57:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[P.h.o.n..e. .n.u..m.b.e.r.C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t. .P.h.o..n.e.n.u.m.b.e..r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49331 * Dorissominever * (+15251) Created page with "P.h.o.n..e. .n.u..m.b.e.r.C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t. .P.h.o..n.e.n.u.m.b.
20:57:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Manoj.U.S.A((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 دعم فني قراءQ.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49332 * Dorissominever * (+18329) Created page with "QPML +¦$÷1.8.8.8-5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. quickbooks technical help phone number, quickbooks technic
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20:59:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mydaha * New user account
20:59:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks c.u.s..t.o.m.e.r. su.p.p..o.r.t. .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49334 * Dorissominever * (+10808) Created page with "Chaudhary Sahab =call $$1-888-513-5978"USA"quickbooks online technical support number and customer service pho
20:59:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt.p.h.o.n.e .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks c.u.s..t.o.m.e.r. su.p.p..o.r.t. .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49335 * Dorissominever * (+10529) Created page with "Dil Nase Mai chur Hai @@@@^^1.888.513.5978^^ Quickbooks tech support phone number, QuickBooks technic
20:59:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks .t.e.ch.n.i.c.al su.p.p..o.r.t. .n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49336 * Dorissominever * (+79360) Created page with "ABB~~~QUICKBOOKS tech Support Phone Number!!+1-888!!513!!5978+QUICKBOOKS technical support phone number 1 888 513 5978++++ Q
20:59:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks p.h.on.e .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks c.u.s..t.o.m.e.r. su.p.p..o.r.t. .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49337 * Dorissominever * (+14291) Created page with "$$!!!!!@@@ 1-888-513-5978 @@@@ QuickBooks tech support phone number, QuickBooks technical support phone number $$!!
20:59:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49338 * Dorissominever * (+16489) Created page with "QuickBooks PRO Support phone Number (((1 888 513 5978 )))QuickBooks PRO support phone Number USA QuickBooks PRO Phone Number))))1-888-513-5978(
20:59:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49339 * Dorissominever * (+14969) Created page with "My Quickbooks customer service®®@@))) ^^1 888*513+5978@@ Quickbooks tech support phone number, Quickbooks technical support phone number QuickBooks**1 888
21:01:12 <\oren\> someone get fizzie on the telephone
21:01:37 <\oren\> just call finland and ask for fizzie
21:14:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Maahijaat * uploaded "[[File:Quickbooks pro tech and technical helpline.jpg]]": QuickBooks Customer Care phone Number [[[ 1 800 728 7356 ]]]QuickBooks customer Care phone Number USA QuickBooks Customer Care phone Number (((1 800 728 7356 )))QuickBooks customer Care phone Number USA Quickbooks Phone Number))))1-800-728-7356((((Q
21:15:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks tech S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49341 * Dorissominever * (+21237) Created page with "Randi h basanti chahe mu m dall do ya mu m jhag uta do koi farak nahi padta edit to marega hi Google Support U s A @@Call, 1-888-513-5978 for all type help by QUICKBOOKS tec
21:21:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@U.S.A((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 دعم فني قراءQ.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49342 * Dorissominever * (+18329) Created page with "QPML +¦$÷1.8.8.8-5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. quickbooks technical help phone number, quickbooks technical he
21:21:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Multimedia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49343 * Mydaha * (+4) Created page with "asas"
21:22:03 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:25:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~Help Usa@ 1-8..-8.-..8-.5.1.3.-..5.97..8.....((( q.u.i..c.k.b.o.o.k.s. .t..e.c.h. .s.u.p.p.o.r.t. .p.h..o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.e.r...]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49344 * Dorissominever * (+152453) Created page with "Quickbooks™ Technical Supp.o.rt Phone Number @@CALL Service + 1 888 513 5978 quickbooks support phone number quickbooks Customer care, serv
21:26:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49345 * Dorissominever * (+13327) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.
21:29:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@@C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 QuickBooks Payroll tech support phone number 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Intuit QuickBooks Payroll Tech Support Phone Number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49346 * Dorissominever * (+8449) Created page with "@@Call, 1-888-513-5978 QuickBooks Payroll tech support phone number1-888-513-5978 Intuit QuickBooks Payroll Tech Support
21:31:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Dorissominever * uploaded "[[File:C.H.O.T.A B.H.I.M. ...) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.e.r.v.i.c.e p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r.gif]]"
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21:32:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Dorissominever * uploaded a new version of "[[File:C.H.O.T.A B.H.I.M. ...) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.e.r.v.i.c.e p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r.gif]]": Quickbooks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Number(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.
21:33:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[I.n.t.u.i.t Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s@.o.f.f.i.c..i.a.l (.1.-.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9..7.8).I.n.t.ui..t .Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .T.e.c.h .S.u.p.p.o.r.t. .P.h.on.e. .N.u.m..b.er. .U.S.A./.CA.N.A.D.A. c.l.i.e.n.t.s.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49349 * Dorissominever * (+14290) Created page with "Intuit QuickBooks@official (1-888-513-5978)Intuit QuickBooks Tech Sup
21:38:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.a.y.R.o.L.L.s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49350 * Dorissominever * (+13171) Created page with "QPML +¦$÷ 1888 -513-5978 quickbooks tech support phone number, quickbooks tech support contact numbe
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21:39:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QB call @ 1-8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 @ Quickbooks P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t Number @ Quickbooks p.o.s s.u..p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49351 * Dorissominever * (+29464) Created page with "QB call @ 1-8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 @ Quickbooks P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t Number @ Quickbooks p.o.s s.u..p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e number, Quickbooks H.e.l.p D.e.
21:40:06 <int-e> fizzie, oerjan, or possibly ais523? ... none of whom are here...
21:40:10 <int-e> ...what is happening!
21:41:53 <int-e> myname: perhaps the idea is to ask some search engine to index the pages and then get better ranked search results for those phone numbers... people never have to visit the actual page for that to work.
21:42:43 <int-e> (I also expect it doesn't work *too* well but spamming is a bottom feeding business and prone to tragedy of the commons)
21:43:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1-8.8.8..-.5.13.-.5..9.7.8. .Q..u.i.c.k.b.o..o.k.s.. .t.e..c.H. .s..u.P.Po..r.t. .N..u.m.bn..er.!!((.1-.88.8.-..5.1.3.-5.9.7.8 ..).). .I.n.t.ui..t. .Q.u.ic..k.b.o.o.k.s.. .E.n.t.e.r.p..r.i.se.. .C.u.s.t.ome.r support Phone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49352 * Dorissominever * (+9924) Created page with " 1-888-513-5978 Quickbooks tecH suPPort Numbner!
21:44:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O.f.f.i.c.i.a.l (1.-.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49353 * Dorissominever * (+29553) Created page with "QuickBooks Phone number 1888!513!5978 Quickbooks Technical Support Phone Number Quickbooks Pro Customer Support Number QB Helpline-))1888!513!5978--((QuickBooks tech .su
21:45:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks tech S.u.p.p.o.rt. p.h.o.n.e .n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49354 * Dorissominever * (+12489) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r QPML +¦$÷ 1888 -51..."
21:46:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quickbooks H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49355 * Dorissominever * (+194905) Created page with "Quickbooks H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.
21:47:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M.a.n.o.j.Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.a.y.R.o.L.L.s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49356 * Dorissominever * (+15411) Created page with "QPML +¦$÷ 1888 -513-5978 Quickbooks PaYroll tech support phone number, Quickbooks PaYroll
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21:47:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--Quickbooks .s.u.p.p.or..t n.um.b.e..r.1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks tech S.u.p.p.o.rt. p.h.o.n.e .n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49357 * Dorissominever * (+74934) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m
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21:47:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.!.5.1.3.!.5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49358 * Dorissominever * (+59086) Created page with "QuickBooks Phone number 1888!513!5978 Quickbooks Support Phone Number Quickbooks Pro Customer Support Number QB Helpline-))1888!513!5978--((QuickBo
21:48:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB Quickbooks H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49359 * Dorissominever * (+194905) Created page with "Quickbooks H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a Help@Call 1-8
21:50:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--A 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. QuickBooks™ tech support phone number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49360 * Dorissominever * (+13326) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r QPML +¦$÷ 1888 -51..."
21:51:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--A 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. QuickBooks tech support phone number]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49361 * Dorissominever * (+13326) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r QPML +¦$÷ 1888 -51..."
21:51:35 <\oren\> int-e: I alerted Intuit about this but they didn't seem bothered
21:51:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49362&oldid=49345 * Mydaha * (+5762)
21:52:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QBBBBBBBB H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49363 * Dorissominever * (+194905) Created page with "Quickbooks H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Quickbooks s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r
21:52:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--A 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .te..c.h. .su.p.p.o..r.t. .p.h.on.e. .n..um.b..e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49364 * Dorissominever * (+13326) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r QPML +¦$÷
21:52:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49365&oldid=49362 * Orenwatson * (-19089) Blanked the page
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21:54:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M.a.n.o.j.r.a.m..1.8..8.8.5.1.35.9.7.8 s.a.i.r.a.m. .j.i. .Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s .p..a.yr.o.l.l. .su.p.p.or.t. .ph.on.e n.um.be.r..u.s.a..ca.n.da.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49369 * Dorissominever * (+11061) Created page with "Hare ram18.88.51.35.978 sairam ji Quickbooks payroll support phone number.usa.canda Hare ram18.88.51.35.978 sairam ji
21:54:27 <\oren\> there's no reason to allow the pages to be indexed
21:54:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M.a.n.o.j.r.a.m..1.8..8.8.5.1.35.9.7.8 s.a.i.r.a.m. .j.i. .Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s .p..a.yr.o.l.l. .su.p.p.or.t. .ph.on.e n.um.be.r..u.s.a..ca.n.da.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49370&oldid=49369 * Orenwatson * (-11061) Blanked the page
21:54:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--A Quickbook support number 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .te..c.h. .su.p.p.o..r.t. .p.h.on.e. .n..um.b..e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49371 * Dorissominever * (+78282) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e
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21:55:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:U.s.a. g.i.d.e.l.i.n.c.e w.i.t.h. Q.B1.8.0.0+7.2..8+7.3-5.6 .Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s. ..P.R.O. T.E.C.H..N.I.C.A.L. .S.U.P.P.O.R.T. .P.H.O.N.E. N.U.M.B.E.R. … .Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s. P.A.Y.R.O.L.L .S.U.P.P.O.R.T. .P.H.O.N.E. N.U.M.B.E.R..U.S.A]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49373 * Mydaha * (+6707) Created page with "Intuit Quickbooks PRO +++»--A- 1 80
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21:55:48 <moonythedwarf_> i cant find a unlambda interpreter thats noninteractive ):
21:55:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--A Quickbook support number 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .te..c.h. .su.p.p.o..r.t. .p.h.on.e. .n..um.b..e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49375&oldid=49372 * Dorissominever * (+39978)
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21:57:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks c.u.s..t.o.m.e.r. su.p.p..o.r.t. .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49378&oldid=49334 * Orenwatson * (-10808) Blanked the page
21:57:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--A Quickbook support phone number 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .te..c.h. . .n..um.b..e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49379 * Dorissominever * (+26652) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r QPML
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21:57:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s P.r.o P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.!.!.5.1.3.!.!.5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.o. T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49382 * Dorissominever * (+29692) Created page with "QuickBooks Pro Phone number 1888!!513!!5978 Quickbooks Pro Technical Support Phone Number Quickbooks Pro Custom
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21:58:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.a.y.R.o.L.L.s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49384&oldid=49350 * Orenwatson * (-13171) Blanked the page
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21:58:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s P.r.o P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.!.!.5.1.3.!.!.5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.o. T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49386&oldid=49382 * Orenwatson * (-29692) Blanked the page
21:58:46 <shachaf> fizzie is in Chicago, I think.
21:58:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABC KA MATLAB = ABE = BAGA === CHUTIYA=== 1 8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks support phone number Quickbooks number Quickbooks phone number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49387&oldid=49198 * Orenwatson * (-7560) Blanked the page
21:59:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI +¦$÷1.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8 .quickbooks payroll tech su.ppo.rt. ph.one .nu.mb.er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49388&oldid=49200 * Orenwatson * (-10877) Blanked the page
21:59:28 * pikhq barfs at bit at HackEgo spam
21:59:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ 1.8.8..8.~.5.1.3~.5.9.7.8 .Quickbooks phone number, Quickbooks technical support, number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49389&oldid=49201 * Orenwatson * (-18515) Blanked the page
21:59:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ 1.8.8..8.~.5.1.3~.5.9.7.8 .Quickbooks p.ho.n.e n.um.b.er., Quickbooks te.c.h.ni.c.al. su.pp.o.r.t., .n.u.m.b..e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49390&oldid=49203 * Orenwatson * (-18515) Blanked the page
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22:00:21 <int-e> moonythedwarf_: you didn't find ftp://ftp.madore.org/pub/madore/unlambda/ ?
22:00:26 <pikhq> Mercifully, irssi has a regex ignore.
22:00:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r+++++((1.8.0.0.7.2.8.7.3.5.6))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49394&oldid=49393 * Orenwatson * (-13325) Blanked the page
22:00:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:00:58 <moonythedwarf_> i did int-e, im using cloud9 to host my bot, but the ones i CAN run on there are interactive
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22:01:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks p.h.on.e .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks c.u.s..t.o.m.e.r. su.p.p..o.r.t. .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49397&oldid=49337 * Orenwatson * (-14291) Blanked the page
22:01:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ .1.8.8.8..-.5.1.3.-.5..9.7.8 quickbooks t.e.c.hn.i.c.a.l. s.u.p.p.o.r.t. n.u.m.b..er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49398&oldid=49215 * Orenwatson * (-18515) Blanked the page
22:01:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@@C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 QuickBooks Payroll tech support phone number 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Intuit QuickBooks Payroll Tech Support Phone Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49399&oldid=49346 * Orenwatson * (-8449) Blanked the page
22:02:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks tech S.u.p.p.o.rt. p.h.o.n.e .n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49400&oldid=49354 * Orenwatson * (-12489) Blanked the page
22:02:03 -!- augur has joined.
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22:02:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--Quickbooks .s.u.p.p.or..t n.um.b.e..r.1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks tech S.u.p.p.o.rt. p.h.o.n.e .n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49402&oldid=49357 * Orenwatson * (-74934) Blanked the page
22:02:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49403&oldid=49338 * Orenwatson * (-16489) Blanked the page
22:02:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks .p..h.o.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49404&oldid=49339 * Orenwatson * (-14969) Blanked the page
22:02:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks tech S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49405&oldid=49341 * Orenwatson * (-21237) Blanked the page
22:03:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deletethis2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49406&oldid=49229 * Orenwatson * (-29563) Blanked the page
22:03:52 <int-e> I've read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud9_IDE ... I still have the same question :-P
22:03:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B c.a.l.l @ 1-8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 @ Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r @ Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.o.s s.u..p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49407&oldid=49199 * Orenwatson * (-11977) Blanked the page
22:04:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M.a.n.o.j.r..a.m..1.8..8.8.5.1.35.9.7.8 s.a.i.r.a.m. .j.i. .Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s .p..a.yr.o.l.l. .su.p.p.or.t. .ph.on.e n.um.be.r..u.s.a..ca.n.da.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49408&oldid=49391 * Orenwatson * (-12501) Blanked the page
22:04:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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22:04:07 <int-e> (though perhaps with a different angle)
22:04:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI~~ Call .1.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-5.9.7.8 U.S.A.@J.E.E.T.ô.ß.P.π.π.u.◙ .1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3.. .5.9.7.8. .Q.u.ickbooks Supp.o.r.t .Phon.E .Num.b.er.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49410&oldid=49205 * Orenwatson * (-23798) Blanked the page
22:04:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--A Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8.t.e.c.h.ni..c.a.l .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r. 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .te..c.h. . .n..um.b..e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49411 * Dorissominever * (+30822) Created page with "QPML +¦$÷ 1888 -513-5978 Quickbooks PaYroll tech support phone number, Quickbooks PaYroll
22:04:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s כ כ כ 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 כ כ כ Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.ok.s. .p.a.y.ro.l.l. t.e.c.h .s.up.p.or.t .ph.o.n.e .n.u.m.be.r. .כ.. .......כ Qu.i.cb.o.ok.s .p.ro. .t.e.ch. .su.p.po.rt. p.h.on.e. .num.b.er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49412 * Dorissominever * (+22098) Created page with "Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s כ כ כ 18885135978 כ כ כ Qu
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22:09:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.!.5.1.3.!.5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49442&oldid=49358 * Orenwatson * (-59086) Blanked the page
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22:09:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--A 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. QuickBooks™ tech support phone number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49444&oldid=49360 * Orenwatson * (-13326) Blanked the page
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22:12:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q-u-i-c-k-B-o-o-k-s p-r-o t-e-c-h-n-i-c-a-l s-u-p-p-o-r-t p-h-o-n-e n-u-m-b-e-r-1-8-8-8-5-1-3-5-9-7-8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49461&oldid=49454 * Orenwatson * (-18629) Blanked the page
22:12:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[P.R.O S.u.p.p.o.r.t ((( 18007287356 ))) Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.o t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.o. c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49462 * Maahijaat * (+12208) Created page with "Line Maro QB ►1!800!728!7356► @@QuickBooks support phone number QuickBooks phone nu
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22:13:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t. .P.h.o..n.e.n.u.m.b.e..r. .C..a.l..l. .1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. Quickbooks Er.r.o.r.P.h.o.n.e.n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49465&oldid=49225 * Orenwatson * (-14832) Blanked the page
22:13:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks error t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49466&oldid=49253 * Orenwatson * (-12307) Blanked the page
22:13:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AV 1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. .5.9.7.8 Quickbooks s.upp.o.r.t. p.hon.e. n.um.b.e.r. G.e.t. .Ins.ta.n.t .Hel.p . .Ca.n.a..d.a .a.t. .1.. 8.8..8. .5.1.3. .5.9..7.8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49467&oldid=49285 * Orenwatson * (-73835) Blanked the page
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22:13:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks premier t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49469&oldid=49237 * Orenwatson * (-9407) Blanked the page
22:13:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks p.r.o. t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49470&oldid=49236 * Orenwatson * (-5274) Blanked the page
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22:14:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HAR HAR MODI 1. ...8.8..8. .51.3. ..5.9.7.8. .Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. C.us.t.o.mer. .Se.r.vi.ce. p.h.one .nu.m.b.er 1. ..8.8.8. .5.1.3. ..5.9.7.8. Qu.i.ckB.oo.ks .C.ustom.er. S.up.port .n.u.m.ber]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49476 * Dorissominever * (+64695) Created page with "QuickBooks Tech Support Number 1 888 513 5978 QuickBooks Tech Support Phone Nu
22:15:16 <\oren\> BurningPrincess: There's a lot of spam right now, reccomend you ignore HackeEgo
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22:15:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1.8.8..8-.5.1.3.-.5..9.7..8 Quickbooks technical support, Quickbooks Custome.r. .S.e.r.vi.c.e. .P.ho.n.e. .N.u.m.be.r.,]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49478&oldid=49290 * Orenwatson * (-24560) Blanked the page
22:15:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI-- 1.+8.8.8=.5.1.3.-. .5..9.7.8.Quickbooks Pro Phone number Quickbooks 1 ⫸⫷8.8.8.-.5.1.3.+.5.9.7.8 .P.r.o. .Ph.o.n.e. n.u..mber]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49479&oldid=49289 * Orenwatson * (-9793) Blanked the page
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22:15:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--ON 1-.8.8.8.. .+.5.1.3.+.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks PH.O.N.E. .N.U.MB.E.R. .A.N.D.. Quickbooks S.U.P.P.O..R.T. .P.H.O.N.E. .N.U.M.B.E.R.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49482&oldid=49306 * Orenwatson * (-17109) Blanked the page
22:15:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. Quickbooks S.u.p.p.o.rt. .n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks .t.e.ch.n.i.c.al su.p.p..o.r.t. .n.u.m.b.er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49483&oldid=49336 * Orenwatson * (-79360) Blanked the page
22:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1.8..8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8. Quickbooks technical help telePhone Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49484&oldid=49296 * Orenwatson * (-7464) Blanked the page
22:16:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AAAAA--- Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8 Q.u.i..c.k.b.oo..k..t.e.c.h .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49485 * Dorissominever * (+11091) Created page with "Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.8.8513+5978 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.
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22:16:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CAll Now«» ¥ ¥1.8.0.0860+9230 ¥ ¥Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49489&oldid=49286 * Orenwatson * (-197974) Blanked the page
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22:16:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[H.E.L.P.D.E.S.K 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o 2014 S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r, Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o 2014 S.u.p.p.o.r.t n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49491&oldid=49257 * Orenwatson * (-12307) Blanked the page
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22:22:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C.A.l.l N.o.w. I.n.t.u.i.t 1.8.0.0.7.2.8+7.3.5.6 Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49523 * Maahijaat * (+20388) Created page with "C.A.l.l N.o.w. I.n.t.u.i.t 1.8.0.0.7.2.8+7.3.5.6 Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.
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22:23:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Call 1.8..8.8..5.1.3.5.9.7.8. .Q.u.i..c.k.bo.o.k..s. .e.n.t.e.r.p.r.i..s.e. .s.u.p.p.o.r..t. .n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49528&oldid=49265 * Orenwatson * (-23265) Blanked the page
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22:24:22 <\oren\> Itd be real nice if I could delete pages, for now this is all I can do
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22:24:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[USA 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. Q.u.ic.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks pro p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49532&oldid=49270 * Orenwatson * (-6749) Blanked the page
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22:24:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quick.bo.oks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Nu.m.ber(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Quic.kbo.oks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.p.p.o.r.t Ph.one Nu.mb.er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49535&oldid=49273 * Orenwatson * (-10222) Blanked the page
22:25:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h..o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49536&oldid=49274 * Orenwatson * (-10795) Blanked the page
22:25:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49537&oldid=49275 * Orenwatson * (-195258) Blanked the page
22:25:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[I.n.t.u.i.t..1.-.8.8.8.-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8.@.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .t.e.c.h. .s.u.p.p.o.r.t. .n.u.m..b.e.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49538&oldid=49276 * Orenwatson * (-10893) Blanked the page
22:25:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[H.e.l.l.o.Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49539 * Dorissominever * (+11606) Created page with "Line QbK ►1888 513 5978► @@((QuickBooks support phone number))QuickBooks phone number)) Line QbK ►18
22:25:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™@.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49540&oldid=49278 * Orenwatson * (-5396) Blanked the page
22:25:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KUT!!KUT (. 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8) Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49541&oldid=49279 * Orenwatson * (-19167) Blanked the page
22:25:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AA.A.A.A--1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8 Q.u.i..c.k.b.oo..k..t.e.c.h .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49542 * Dorissominever * (+10384) Created page with "Quickbooks Support 1-888-513-5978 Quickbooks Support phone number USA@JEETôßPppu? 1 888 513 5978 Quickbooks Support PHONE Number..,O»G++??ô US 1888-513-5978 quickboo
22:25:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C.A.l.l N.o.w. I.n.t.u.i.t 1.8.0.0.7.2.8+7.3.5.6 Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49543&oldid=49523 * Orenwatson * (-20388) Blanked the page
22:25:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[T.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t ^^^1.8.0.0.7.2.8.7.3.5.6^^^Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.e.m.i.e.r t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r @@Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49544&oldid=49502 * Dorissominever * (+138997)
22:26:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[+Los Angeles1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.P.h.o.n.e.N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49545&oldid=49280 * Orenwatson * (-5347) Blanked the page
22:26:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KUT!!KUT Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o..k.s T.e.c.h. S.u.p.p.or.t N.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s T.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n..e N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49546&oldid=49282 * Orenwatson * (-65370) Blanked the page
22:26:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chicago 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s™.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.P.R.O.T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l.S.u.p.p.o.r.t.N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49547&oldid=49283 * Orenwatson * (-8772) Blanked the page
22:26:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[H.e.l.p.l.i.n.e ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49548&oldid=49284 * Orenwatson * (-198826) Blanked the page
22:26:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Intuit @ ((1-88.8.-.5..13..-.5.9.7.8.@.. Qu..i.c.k.boo.k.s E.r.r..or .t.e.ch. .S.u..ppo.r.t .nu..m.ber. .Q.ui.c.k..b.o.o.k.s Er..r.or pr.o. 2014 .S.u.p.p.o..rt. .P.ho..n.e. .U.SA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49549&oldid=49327 * Orenwatson * (-15251) Blanked the page
22:26:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[USA ACCOUNTS@1.88...8.51..3.5.9.7.8.(.(. )) Q.u.i.c.kb..ooks .T.e.ch Su.p..por.t Pho.n..e nu.m.b.er,Qu.i.c.k.b.ooks .E.rr.o.r Tec..h.n.i.ca.l. .S.u.p.p.o.r.t]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49550&oldid=49329 * Orenwatson * (-15251) Blanked the page
22:26:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[P.h.o.n..e. n.u..m.b.e.r.C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks Er.ro.r t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t. .P.h.o..n.e.n.u.m.b.e..r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49551&oldid=49330 * Orenwatson * (-15251) Blanked the page
22:26:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AA.A.A.A--1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8 Q.u.i..c.k.b.oo..k..t.e.c.h .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49552&oldid=49542 * Orenwatson * (-10384) Blanked the page
22:26:54 <fizzie> Is this ongoing or cleanup?
22:27:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AA.Avi.A.Avi -U.S.A--1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8 Q.u.i..c.k.b.oo..k..t.e.c.h .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49553 * Dorissominever * (+72688) Created page with "Quickbooks Support 1-888-513-5978 Quickbooks Support phone number USA@JEETôßPppu? 1 888 513 5978 Quickbooks Support PHONE Number..,O»G++??ô US 1888-513-59
22:27:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[H.e.l.l.o.Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r +++++((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))+++++ q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r s.e.r.v.i.c.e. n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49554&oldid=49539 * Orenwatson * (-11606) Blanked the page
22:27:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[P.h.o.n..e. .n.u..m.b.e.r.C.a.l.l 1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Quickbooks Er.ro.r. t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a..l. .S.u.p.p.o..r.t. .P.h.o..n.e.n.u.m.b.e..r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49555&oldid=49331 * Orenwatson * (-15251) Blanked the page
22:27:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Manoj.U.S.A((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 دعم فني قراءQ.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49556&oldid=49332 * Orenwatson * (-18329) Blanked the page
22:27:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M.a.n.o.j.U.S.A((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 دعم فني قراءQ.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49557&oldid=49333 * Orenwatson * (-18329) Blanked the page
22:27:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quickbooks P.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r u.s.a Help@Call 1.-.88.8...-.5.1.3.-.5.9.7..8 Qu.ickbo.oks te.ch su.pport p.hone. num.be.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49558&oldid=49503 * Orenwatson * (-197974) Blanked the page
22:28:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[T.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t ^^^1.8.0.0.7.2.8.7.3.5.6^^^Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.e.m.i.e.r t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r @@Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49559&oldid=49544 * Orenwatson * (-152453) Blanked the page
22:28:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AAAAA--- Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8 Q.u.i..c.k.b.oo..k..t.e.c.h .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49560&oldid=49485 * Orenwatson * (-11091) Blanked the page
22:28:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AA.A.A.A--- Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok p.r.o. n.u.m.b.e.r 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8 Q.u.i..c.k.b.oo..k..t.e.c.h .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49561&oldid=49513 * Orenwatson * (-11091) Blanked the page
22:28:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.0.0860+9230 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49562&oldid=49310 * Orenwatson * (-17913) Blanked the page
22:28:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@1 8-8-8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8@s.u.p.e.r.s.t.a.r R.a.j.n.i!!!!k.a.b.a.l.i@q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s T.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Nu.m.b.e.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49563&oldid=49311 * Orenwatson * (-11440) Blanked the page
22:28:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[U.S.A((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8 دعم فني قراءQ.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s t.e.c.h s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49564&oldid=49312 * Orenwatson * (-18329) Blanked the page
22:28:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M.a.n.oj. .by. .Q.B. .E.xp.e.r.ts.).«.» (.1..8.8.8.5.1.3+5.9.7.8 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s c.u.s.t.o.m.e.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49565&oldid=49314 * Orenwatson * (-11091) Blanked the page
22:28:48 <fizzie> \oren\: We've got mass-cleanup tools for this.
22:29:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. .Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s. .1.8..8.8. 5.1.3.-.5.9.7.8 Quickbooks. .T.E.CH.. S..U.P.PO.R.T. .P.HO..N.E. N.U.M..B.E.R]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49566&oldid=49315 * Orenwatson * (-6900) Blanked the page
22:29:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Qui.c.k.b.o..oks Su.p.p.o.rt P.h.o.n.e Number(1-8.8.8-5.1.3-5.9.7.8)) ! Qui.c.k.bo.oks t.e.c.h.n.i-c-a-l Su.p.p.o.r.t Ph.one Number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49567&oldid=49316 * Orenwatson * (-10050) Blanked the page
22:29:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49568&oldid=49317 * Orenwatson * (-9582) Blanked the page
22:29:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C.a.l.l. .(.T.o.ll. .F.re.e.).+1.8.8.8. .5.1..3 .5.9.7.8 Q.u.i.c.k.Bo.o.k.s P.r.o.T.e.c.h.n.ic.a.l S.u.pp.o.rt. P.h.o.n.e. N.u.m.b.e.r. ..I.n.t.u.i.t .q.u.i.c.kB.o.o.ks. .h.e.lp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49569&oldid=49319 * Orenwatson * (-9582) Blanked the page
22:29:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QBTSN QBB1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8.Q.U.I.C..K.B.O.O.K.S.t.e.c.h.s..u.p.p.o.r.t.p.h.o.n.e.n.u.m.b..e.r.1.8..8.8.5.1.3.5..9.7.8.Q.U.I..C.K.B..O.O.K.S.t..e.c.h.S..u.p.p.o.rt.N.u..m.b.e..r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49570&oldid=49320 * Orenwatson * (-198876) Blanked the page
22:29:33 <fizzie> And the pages really need to be deleted, not blanked.
22:29:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[U.S.A P.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t 1.8.0.0.8.6.0.9.2.3.0.. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s 2013 S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r, Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s 2013 S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49571&oldid=49307 * Orenwatson * (-12307) Blanked the page
22:29:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Consultation by QB Experts)«» (1.8.0.0860+9230 )...Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s p.r.o S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49572&oldid=49305 * Orenwatson * (-17913) Blanked the page
22:29:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLYP..Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s P.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r ((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8)) q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s p.r.e.m.i.e.r s.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e n.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49573&oldid=49326 * Orenwatson * (-15053) Blanked the page
22:30:01 <fizzie> I'm on a phone, very inconvenient.
22:30:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AA.Avi.A.--Q.u.i.c.k.b.oo.k.s. .S.u.p.p.o.rt. 1.-.8.8..8-..5.1.3.-..5.9.7.8 Quickbooks Supp.o.r.t. ..pho.n.e .n.u.m.b.e.r .U.S.A.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49574 * Dorissominever * (+11606) Created page with "Line QbK ►1888 513 5978► @@((QuickBooks support phone number))QuickBooks phone number)) Line QbK ►1888 513 5978► @@((QuickBooks suppo
22:30:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AA.Avi.A.Avi -U.S.A--1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8 Q.u.i..c.k.b.oo..k..t.e.c.h .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49575&oldid=49553 * Orenwatson * (-72688) Blanked the page
22:30:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MP4Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok .S.E.R.R.O.R.1.8.0...0.7.2.8....7.3.5.6.t.e.c.h.ni..c.a.l .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r. 1.8.0...0.7.2.8....7.3.5.6. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. E.R.R.O.R..te..c.h. . .n..um.b..e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49576 * Mydaha * (+29542) Created page with "Quickbooks ERROR ERROR help number- Quickbooks ERROR ERROR Helpline Number;
22:30:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[@18..8.8.5.1.3.59..7.8.(.(. )) Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k..s. E.r.r.o.r Te.c.h. Sup.p.o..rt P..h.o.n.e. nu..m.b.er,Qu.i.c.k.b.oo.k.s Tec.h.n.i.c.al .S.up..p.o.r.t Pho..n.e ..N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49577&oldid=49328 * Orenwatson * (-15251) Blanked the page
22:30:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AVI--1 .8.8.8. .5.1.3. 5.9.7.8. .Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.o.k.s. .c.us..to.m.e.r. .su.p.p.o.r.t. .p.ho.n.e. .n.u.m.b.er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49578&oldid=49313 * Orenwatson * (-5047) Blanked the page
22:30:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[M.a.n.o.j.Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8.t.e.c.h.ni..c.a.l .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r. 1.8.8.8..5.1.3...5.9.7.8. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. .te..c.h. . .n..um.b..e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49579&oldid=49471 * Orenwatson * (-61644) Blanked the page
22:31:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MP4Q.u.i.c.k.b.o.ok .S.E.R.R.O.R.1.8.0...0.7.2.8....7.3.5.6.t.e.c.h.ni..c.a.l .s.u.p.p.o.rt. .p.h.on.e. .n.um..be.r. 1.8.0...0.7.2.8....7.3.5.6. Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s. E.R.R.O.R..te..c.h. . .n..um.b..e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49580&oldid=49576 * Orenwatson * (-29542) Blanked the page
22:31:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quickbooks Error ==1.8.0.0.7.2.8.7.3.5.6== Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s e.r.r.o.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s e.r.r.o.r t.e.c.h. S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49581 * Maahijaat * (+12833) Created page with "Quickbooks Error ==1.8.0.0.7.2.8.7.3.5.6== Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s e.r.r.o.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m
22:31:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AA.Avi.A.--Q.u.i.c.k.b.oo.k.s. .S.u.p.p.o.rt. 1.-.8.8..8-..5.1.3.-..5.9.7.8 Quickbooks Supp.o.r.t. ..pho.n.e .n.u.m.b.e.r .U.S.A.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49582&oldid=49574 * Orenwatson * (-11606) Blanked the page
22:31:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quickbooks Error ==1.8.0.0.7.2.8.7.3.5.6== Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s e.r.r.o.r S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s e.r.r.o.r t.e.c.h. S.u.p.p.o.r.t N.u.m.b.e.r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49583&oldid=49581 * Orenwatson * (-12833) Blanked the page
22:32:00 <\oren\> fizzie: I can't delete them
22:32:25 <\oren\> but I've now blanked every extant page with the word quickbooks in it
22:32:57 <fizzie> Yes, so you should not be blanking them, all it really does is mess up the recent changes for a mass-delete. Though hopefully not much.
22:33:17 <fizzie> The spam is already in the title, really.
22:33:20 <\oren\> I haven't edited any real pages in the last month
22:33:26 <shachaf> fizzie: Note that there were legitimate edits too.
22:34:11 <\oren\> so if you delete every page in the last month of my edit history that should od it
22:34:22 <fizzie> I'm boarding a river cruise thing in Chicago right about now.
22:34:45 <\oren\> or I can delete them if I had the ability to
22:37:21 <\oren\> There weren't so many that I couldn't do them manually in 10 minutes
22:37:22 <fizzie> I'll try to get something done once I find a place to stop at.
22:43:28 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:44:02 <fizzie> Were there several spammer accounts or just one?
22:47:22 <\oren\> Dorissominever was responsible for the vast majoirty of the spam however
22:47:40 <fizzie> Man, this is really annoying with a phone. Should've checked IRC before leaving the office.
22:51:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:51:48 <\oren\> they also uploaded a bunch of images
22:51:57 <\oren\> https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:C.H.O.T.A_B.H.I.M._...)_Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s_s.u.p.p.o.r.t_n.u.m.b.e.r_((1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8))_Q.u.i.c.k.B.o.o.k.s_C.u.s.t.o.m.e.r_S.e.r.v.i.c.e_p.h.o.n.e_n.u.m.b.e.r.gif
22:53:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Mydaha]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 3 hours and 36 minutes (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
22:53:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Maahijaat]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 3 hours and 36 minutes (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
22:54:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Getyourmedz]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 3 hours and 36 minutes (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
22:56:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Shirleypittsberg]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 3 hours and 36 minutes (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
22:57:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Crusetome1606]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 3 hours and 36 minutes (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
22:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Sanjeevtomer27]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 3 hours and 36 minutes (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
22:57:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Dorissominever]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 3 hours and 36 minutes (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Spamming links to external sites
23:01:13 <fizzie> I will try to do a simple Special:Nuke, but the rest of the cleanup will have to wait.
23:02:14 <shachaf> Didn't you disable account creation?
23:02:24 -!- adu has joined.
23:02:51 <shachaf> Maybe you turned it back on.
23:03:03 <fizzie> I undisabled it to test ais523's new filter.
23:03:11 <fizzie> It seemed to be working fine.
23:03:26 <\oren\> @tell ais523 your filter need work
23:03:28 <fizzie> Apparently not so much any more.
23:05:08 <myname> is there a reason why you don't make like virtual pages for new accounts that aren't seen on the regular wiki and can be pushed through by people that are either long enough there or in any other way trustworthy
23:07:12 -!- adu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:07:40 <\oren\> myname: that sounds like a lot of work to implement. It's probably easier to just ban people and delete pages
23:07:42 -!- adu has joined.
23:07:46 <fizzie> Because that's not a stock MediaWiki feature and/or goes against the wiki philosophy.
23:08:42 <fizzie> At any rate, we might consider the "request user account from trusted people" solution.
23:09:08 <fizzie> I nuked everything by the Dorissowhatever.
23:09:10 -!- DatCodingGuy has joined.
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23:09:55 <lambdabot> KORD 172151Z 33010KT 10SM SCT050 BKN075 BKN090 BKN250 28/19 A3003 RMK AO2 SLP164 TCU DSNT NW-N T02780189
23:10:01 <\oren\> maybe we can find the company that's spamming and nuke them
23:10:03 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:10:06 <fizzie> I wonder if my blocks hit DatCodingGuy. It sounds a bit less spammy name.
23:10:37 <myname> what does his filter do?
23:10:59 -!- FreeFull has joined.
23:11:24 <myname> also, i am surprised that ther is no plugin for mediawiki that deals with new users that spam somehow. i would've exoect it to be a larger problem
23:11:48 <fizzie> Blocks edits typical to the spamming software we see. The actual filters are on the wiki if you want to see.
23:12:10 <fizzie> I did say "stock". There's all kinds of extensions.
23:12:19 <\oren\> myname: these spammers are people
23:13:26 <fizzie> Okay, bye -- started raining. Will clean up more later.
23:13:43 <myname> but they start spamming right after creating an account
23:18:16 -!- `^_^v has joined.
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23:41:55 -!- adu_ has changed nick to adu.
23:55:16 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:59:54 -!- Elronnd has changed nick to EElf.
00:00:16 <hppavilion[1]> Or, more accurately, are there any applications of the root mean cube?
00:01:18 -!- EElf has changed nick to Elronnd.
00:01:43 <hppavilion[1]> (root mean square of a set of numbers S is <sqrt(sum({n^2 for n in S})/len(S)>; root mean cube is <root(sum({n^3 for n in S})/len(S), 3>)
00:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> rms is generalized mean where p=2, normal mean is p=1, and rmc would be p=3
00:03:51 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:06:36 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, you can have the 1.5 mean (not quite rms, but above normal means)
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00:12:27 <myname> why do you root the len?
00:12:46 <myname> also, without division, it is something pretty ordinary
00:13:22 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ...because rms is the square root of the mean of the squares of a set, from what I read
00:14:01 <hppavilion[1]> So I square all the values, sum them, divide them by the number of values, then take the root
00:14:47 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I could divide the root of the sum of squares by the root of the len and get the same result in theory
00:15:11 <myname> but it does sound pretty weird to me
00:15:11 <hppavilion[1]> But that would obviously be inefficient (or optimized away), hard to read, and make it less obvious what I'm doing
00:24:49 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_buzzwords#General_conversation includes "buzzword"
00:26:15 <shachaf> Andrej Bauer posted: "We work internally in a topos with a subobject classifier Ω. For the purposes of this discussion, call a monotone map f : Ω → Ω *good* if (*) ∀ p : Ω, f (f p ⇒ p) is valid in the topos."
00:26:19 <shachaf> I feel like I've seen this somewhere but I can't remember where.
00:31:13 <myname> so wikipedia has citations for words being buzzwords?
00:32:41 <myname> algorithm as a buzzword O.o
00:50:37 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
00:53:07 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: in the limit as n->infty, the nthrootmeannthpower goes to...0 I think!
00:54:28 -!- adu has joined.
00:56:59 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: well if i were to just take the nth root of the sum of nth powers it would approach the max value of the set as n->infty. the mean part means we have to divide by (size of set)^(1/n), which...goes to zero I guess. so i take it back. it will go to infty won't it?
00:57:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:57:38 <quintopia> so it'll still be just the max element
00:58:27 <\oren\> sup guize imma call that spam number now
00:59:01 <shachaf> for a good time call +1-202-762-1401
00:59:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: You were the one we were depending on to tell us xD
00:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> Are quantum computers fundamentally more powerful than conventional computers, or just faster?
00:59:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well i can't tell you until i know myself, right?
00:59:48 <lambdabot> orin said 5h 40m 50s ago: why doesn't @seen work anymore
00:59:48 <lambdabot> shachaf said 5h 1m 2s ago: please remind me to unignore HackEgo when the spam is over twh
00:59:48 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 5h 53s ago: Remind me too, I guess
01:00:30 <oerjan> \oren\: i'm not quite sure, you should ask int-e who is in control of it.
01:00:49 <hppavilion[1]> I unignored HackEgo and it hasn't said anything since I pinged
01:01:01 <shachaf> I think @seen was gone long before int-e took control of lambdabot.
01:01:10 <oerjan> shachaf: did you put ^O in my nick that's evil
01:01:14 <shachaf> It had a memory leak or something.
01:01:42 <oerjan> shachaf: well why did lambdabot respond but i got no message?
01:01:56 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
01:02:34 <HackEgo> [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N]
01:03:03 <oerjan> shachaf: did you get lambdabot to fake the response
01:04:00 <oerjan> shachaf: i know, but int-e once re-enabled it for a while. i don't know why he disabled it again.
01:05:46 <hppavilion[1]> Is polymeric falcighol derivation at all a real thing (even if it's not used anywhere)?
01:06:19 <\oren\> I just called tham and made a bunch of legal threats
01:07:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: they're asymptotically faster (sometimes exponentially so), which you may or may not consider fundamental.
01:07:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, I'm just going for "are there any problems a QC can solve that a CC can't, given infinite time"
01:08:53 <fizzie> oerjan: By the time I came here, I didn't see any spamming going on any more, just \oren\ blanking those pages. I still haven't looked back in my scrollback, I'm very out.
01:09:14 <hppavilion[1]> https://fedotov.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/5-levels-of-web.png is horribly inaccurate :,(
01:09:20 * oerjan notes that his messages responding to way above lines sometimes look ridiculous without context.
01:09:34 <fizzie> Done with the cruise, but still need some dinner and get myself to the hotel to see what's up.
01:10:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: and nope, there isn't - a classical computer can do any quantum computation using just matrix calculations on the exponentially large vector space.
01:11:23 <hppavilion[1]> Making the idea of the Polymeric Web requiring a quantum computer to access bullshit, unless we're just talking practicality
01:13:07 <oerjan> fizzie: huh that's weird, indeed they stopped before you blocked them.
01:16:44 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: unless the polymeric web is implemented using entangled states to transmit encryption keys. you might not be able to create a secure connection without the quantum encryption then.
01:17:35 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: No, it's the marianas web; you just use the polymeric falcighol derivation to access it. Obviously.
01:17:53 <zzo38> Can you improve the security if you acquire a physical quantum encryption key?
01:18:18 <oerjan> fizzie: i see that the spammer created a simple junk page first, thus getting around the spam filter's restriction to first edits only.
01:18:43 <oerjan> so they may have read the error message.
01:18:57 <oerjan> (although they didn't use the sandbox.)
01:19:11 <quintopia> or maybe it just tried something random and got lucky
01:20:50 <oerjan> plenty caught in the spam filter as well.
01:21:11 <oerjan> or wait, not that much. just a little.
01:22:10 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
01:23:08 <adu> hppavilion[1]: :)
01:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, lots of pedophile forums require you to send an application to join. The application must include stuff from your own library, forcing you to incriminate yourself in order to join.
01:24:58 <hppavilion[1]> "She who fights with monsters should look to it that she herself doesn't get raided by the FBI for her browser history."
01:25:43 <adu> /ignore hppavilion[1]
01:26:20 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm not sure if you were being cruel or wierd
01:26:49 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm reading http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1760-5-things-i-learned-infiltrating-deep-web-child-molesters.html because it came up while I was reading about the marianas web, which is a meme
01:26:54 <oerjan> Dammit, I hate pages that allow you to click links that destroy forms you are filling in
01:28:00 <oerjan> ok, and when they _also_ ignore the ctrl for open-in-other-tab, i want to go find the programmer to give them a sound beating.
01:28:03 <shachaf> we must be protected from ourselves
01:30:26 <oerjan> the change i made to the spam filter triggers on my attempt to change the spam filter message XD
01:31:24 <oerjan> maybe not as well thought out.
01:33:31 <quintopia> oerjan: does the wiki software support page creation rate-limiting
01:33:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i changed the spam filter rule the spammers got around to remove their workaround hth
01:33:44 <oerjan> quintopia: i have no idea. ask fizzie.
01:34:01 <myname> you could.change it to a placeholder in a first step
01:34:13 <quintopia> i feel like no one would be particularly inconvenienced if page creation was limited to 2/day
01:34:15 <oerjan> actually that won't help with creating new user accounts.
01:34:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it didn't apply if they'd made a "legitimate" edit first.
01:34:59 <oerjan> but just removing that isn't good enough.
01:35:24 <myname> change spam filter to "placeholder" shouldn't trigger and changing it to what you want afterwards neither
01:35:50 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Really, it would be reverse-inconvenience; it'd be much better if it was a 2/day limit because then I couldn't go on creation sprees
01:36:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Can you make it so that the spam filter requires some filling in every few edits?
01:39:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: creating a junk page.
01:39:48 <oerjan> i have now changed it so the account must be older than 24 hours.
01:40:10 <oerjan> for the particular filter they got around.
01:40:15 <myname> how do you differantiate between junk and spam?
01:41:12 <myname> do you tell them about that 24h thing?
01:41:14 <oerjan> myname: um we have 7 specific filters catching common spammer patterns that normal users would very rarely show. they're normally enough.
01:41:15 <quintopia> spam is something annoying that we don't want
01:41:26 <oerjan> myname: yes, i just changed the error message too
01:41:53 <oerjan> myname: my idea is that we can see in the logs whether a suspicious account has registerd.
01:42:08 <oerjan> so giving us 24 hours to block them.
01:42:35 <myname> ideally you give the error message after their first attempt, saving said attempt for review
01:42:40 <oerjan> and they will probably make other blocked attempts that we can see in the abuse log.
01:43:06 <oerjan> myname: there's an abuse log telling when someone gets caught by a filter.
01:44:25 <oerjan> @tell ais523 spammers got around filter 7 by making junk edits first. i changed the "first edit" to "first 24 hours" instead.
01:45:24 <myname> i don't get spam in general, but this was straight weird
01:45:26 <oerjan> ais523 might know a subtler way of achieving this, he's our filter editing master :)
01:56:47 <oerjan> i must have done something wrong
01:57:39 <oerjan> ...i used > 86400 instead of < 86400 XD
01:58:57 <hppavilion[1]> http://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/9/1/4/566914_v1.jpg :,(
01:59:03 <oerjan> hm i think fizzie has disabled the HackEgo link
02:00:12 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
02:03:05 <oerjan> myname> change spam filter to "placeholder" shouldn't trigger and changing it to what you want afterwards neither <-- it wasn't the spam filter itself, but the separate error message, although it did show a bug in the spam filter.
02:10:50 <fizzie> Well, I've managed to make it back to a laptop, finally. Anything I should be doing?
02:12:36 <oerjan> not sure, i accidentally found a couple pages you'd missed, so need to check that...
02:12:56 <oerjan> fizzie: i modified the filter so hopefully they'll have a harder time
02:12:58 <fizzie> I at least unlockeded the temporary "no new users, no non-sysop edits" settings for now, since the existing spammer accounts got blocked. And re-enabled the IRC bridge.
02:13:23 <fizzie> I did Special:Nuke only for the one account, so any pages made by others wouldn't have been caught by that.
02:14:42 <oerjan> quintopia: i cannot find any way in the abuse rule syntax to count a user's recent page creations, alas.
02:15:02 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i don't get it. besides the fact that it breaks one of the best south park episodes
02:15:35 <hppavilion[1]> myname: (a) which one (b) As in, I wish that were the case
02:15:37 <fizzie> I guess I can delete the remaining ones. At least handily deleted pages do end up suppressed in RecentChanges.
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02:15:54 <fizzie> Only 40 or so show up in RC; I'll delete those.
02:16:08 <myname> hppavilion[1]: informative murder porn
02:16:09 <fizzie> Although I guess I should again temporarily stop the wiki-irc thing.
02:16:19 <fizzie> Last time I got HackEgo excess-flooded by it.
02:16:28 <myname> "could you please be at home from 6 am to 3 pm all of november?"
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02:16:42 <oerjan> fizzie: the creations are suppressed, but not the deletions, of course.
02:16:57 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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02:17:08 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, but they are at least grouped all under the same heading.
02:17:09 <myname> but it is a pretty good one
02:17:42 <myname> i also like scott tenorman must die. and creme fraiche. and the drone episode
02:17:48 <myname> such a good series, really
02:19:13 * oerjan thinks fizzie might use a more advanced preferences setting for RC than he does.
02:19:20 <moonythedwarf_> what would be the simplist loop based brainfuck code to output characters 0x01 0x02 0x03 and 0x04 in a row?
02:19:48 <\oren\> Argh why is his name spelled Rusian!?!? it should obviously be Lucian!
02:19:57 <FreeFull> It'll keep going after that too
02:20:16 <oerjan> moonythedwarf_: +.+.+.+.
02:20:39 <fizzie> Well, the recent ones should be gone now.
02:21:18 <FreeFull> Dammit, mine is more complicated ++++>+<[>.+<-]
02:21:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um wrong order
02:22:00 <fizzie> (Also the fiddliest thing ever: middle mouse button emulation by a three-finger tap.)
02:22:17 <FreeFull> fizzie: I have it set to two finger tap
02:22:36 <\oren\> fizzie: I use an actual mouse
02:22:52 <oerjan> <\oren\> Argh why is his name spelled Rusian!?!? it should obviously be Lucian! <-- ale you diccing engrish
02:23:22 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a severely retarded hyperintelligent AI that gained sentience and escaped the South Korean government
02:23:32 <fizzie> I think I have a tiny "travel mouse" somewhere, but it's wireless and runs on batteries, and therefore never has batteries.
02:23:46 <\oren\> oerjan: yes. Why can't mangakas research the simplest things
02:24:34 <myname> [[-]<+.[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]
02:24:36 <moonythedwarf_> Thx. it reminded him he didnt write in loops yet. i didnt even notice
02:24:41 <myname> my attempt is the most loopy
02:24:44 <\oren\> although then again, maybe the chracter himself didn't bother learning to spell it
02:24:57 <myname> moonythedwarf_: it should do what you want, but i didn't tested it
02:25:12 <FreeFull> Also a touchpad and a touchscreen
02:25:30 <myname> the idea is to count upwards, test if it is 4, and if it is leave the loop
02:25:46 <myname> for testing i copied the current value, obviously
02:25:50 <oerjan> myname: i think starting the program with [ is a bad sign hth
02:26:05 <\oren\> I have a mini mouse, a touchpad, and a trackpoint (also known as a nipple mouse)
02:26:39 <oerjan> \oren\: maybe the character is actually russian hth
02:26:40 <myname> `bf +[[-]<+.[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]
02:27:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49585&oldid=47056 * DatCodingGuy * (+81) /* Hello world! */
02:27:12 <oerjan> myname: HackEgo might censor a few chars
02:27:34 <myname> in theory, it should work
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02:27:56 <oerjan> `` bf '+[[-]<+.[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
02:28:17 <oerjan> `` ord "$(bf '+[[-]<+.[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]')"
02:28:32 <oerjan> hm i may be forgetting what ord does
02:28:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49586&oldid=49585 * DatCodingGuy * (+1) /* Cat program */
02:29:10 <HackEgo> bin/ord: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
02:29:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | perl -C7 -pe 'chomp; $_ = join(" ", map { ord } split //, $_);'
02:29:25 <myname> moonythedwarf_: how so
02:29:55 <myname> `` bf >+[[-]<+.[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----] | ord
02:30:02 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: warning: here-document at line 4 delimited by end-of-file (wanted `]') \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: warning: here-document at line 4 delimited by end-of-file (wanted `+') \ /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: +.[: No such file or directory
02:30:03 <oerjan> `bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
02:30:19 <myname> `` bf '>+[[-]<+.[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
02:30:20 <oerjan> just checking if it's an actual bf interp
02:30:24 <quintopia> \oren\: trackpoint is actuall clit mouse hth
02:30:37 <oerjan> `` bf '+.+.+.+.' | ord
02:30:41 <myname> moonythedwarf_: i don't know how i did this but i am proud
02:30:47 <oerjan> ok it really doesn't like those chars
02:31:22 <oerjan> `` bf '+.+.+.+.' | unidecode
02:31:42 <oerjan> `` unidecode "$(bf '+.+.+.+.')"
02:31:44 <myname> `` bf '>+[[-]<+[++++++++++[-]].[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
02:32:10 <myname> `` bf '>+[[-]<+[++++++++++.[-]][>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
02:32:50 <oerjan> ok something is wrong.
02:33:18 <oerjan> `` bf '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.' | wc
02:33:27 <oerjan> `` bf '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:33:54 <oerjan> didn't that work a moment ago
02:34:04 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:34:08 <myname> `` bf '>+[[-]<+++++++++++.----------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
02:34:13 <oerjan> `bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
02:34:21 <oerjan> `` bf '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:34:32 <oerjan> `bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
02:34:35 <oerjan> `` bf '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:34:39 <myname> i kinda want to know if my code's correct
02:34:56 <\oren\> `bf '++++++++++++++++++[.+]'
02:34:58 <HackEgo> â !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
02:35:10 <oerjan> `run bf '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:35:27 <oerjan> i think it's caught by something in the ` and `` scripts
02:35:33 <\oren\> You should install my bf interpeter
02:35:48 <oerjan> `run bf '+.+.+.+.' | ord
02:35:55 <oerjan> `run bf '+.+.+.+.' | wc
02:36:02 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm
02:36:04 <myname> `` bf '>+[[-]<+++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]'
02:36:44 <\oren\> my bf interpeter works
02:37:12 <myname> does my initial code do?
02:37:34 <myname> with the + up front, of course
02:38:39 <FreeFull> It might be `run that's broken, maybe
02:40:20 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: itym TrackPoint™-style pointer hth <-- itym someone else hth
02:40:38 <\oren\> ~/bf <<<">+[[-]<+++++++++++.----------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]" | od -c
02:40:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: itym TrackPoint™-style pointer hth <-- itym someone else hth
02:41:28 <oerjan> ``` bf '+.+.+.+.' | ord
02:41:35 <myname> that's weird, looks a bit off
02:41:45 <oerjan> ``` bf '+.+.+.+.' | wc
02:41:46 <myname> it should be 11 12 13 14
02:42:01 <\oren\> is ord even a shell command?
02:42:14 <\oren\> `bf '+++++++++[.+]' | od -c
02:42:14 <oerjan> \oren\: it's a HackEgo command
02:42:21 <HackEgo> bin/bf: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
02:42:28 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
02:42:33 <\oren\> `` bf '+++++++++[.+]' | od -c
02:42:45 <oerjan> that runs gregor's interp
02:43:41 <\oren\> My interpreter works better
02:44:11 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> GRAH <-- good show
02:44:43 <\oren\> in the sense that +[.+] prints all bytes in order from 1 to 255
02:46:22 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm
02:46:54 <\oren\> its shitty and doesn't do much optimiation but it works
02:46:57 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
02:47:15 <oerjan> ``` run bf '+[.+]' | wc
02:47:49 <oerjan> rnooodl is silly, but it shouldn't be affecting this...
02:47:54 <\oren\> wait why are there three 1
02:47:57 <\oren\> wait why are there three `
02:48:07 <oerjan> \oren\: zzo38's variant
02:48:13 <oerjan> it has simpler LANG settings.
02:48:21 <oerjan> just in case that mattered
02:49:00 <oerjan> ``` bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.' | wc
02:49:12 <oerjan> ``` bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:49:18 <oerjan> `run bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:49:32 <oerjan> that not working is pretty damning...
02:49:47 <oerjan> i think possibly some of the shell stuff in bf is breaking
02:49:52 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
02:50:08 <\oren\> my favorite line of code in that is data=code=(char*)&c-1000;
02:50:21 <\oren\> it's so wrong, but feels so right
02:50:41 <oerjan> `` bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:50:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
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02:51:12 <oerjan> perhaps that extglob thing breaks it
02:51:15 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
02:51:26 <moon_> anyone here do ruby?
02:52:22 <oerjan> `sled bin/bf//2ishopt -u extglob
02:52:26 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#! /bin/bash \ shopt -u extglob \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
02:52:35 <oerjan> `` bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:53:53 <moon_> Anyone here program in ruby?
02:53:53 <oerjan> `sled bin/bf//2cshopt -u extglob globstar
02:53:56 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#! /bin/bash \ shopt -u extglob globstar \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
02:53:59 <oerjan> `` bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:55:10 <oerjan> ``` bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:55:17 <oerjan> `run bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
02:56:22 <\oren\> oerjan: why don't you jsut use a different bf interpreter
02:56:35 <\oren\> obviously this one is broken somehow
02:57:11 <oerjan> hm it might not be able to take an output pipe?
02:57:55 <oerjan> `mk test//+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
02:58:14 <oerjan> `/hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 test
02:58:22 <oerjan> `` /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 test
02:58:28 <oerjan> `run /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 test
02:58:36 <oerjan> `run /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 test | ord
02:58:46 <zzo38> I have received a suggestion to add the CC0 license and a CC0 license agreement to TAVERN. I will do so when I get a chance (I cannnot do so now as I am not currently at home).
02:58:55 <oerjan> \oren\: it's not the interpreter itself but the wrapper around it, i think.
02:59:48 <oerjan> `mk test//+[[-]<+++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]
02:59:55 <oerjan> `run /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 test | ord
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03:00:43 <zzo38> Maybe I should also add to the wiki, the CC0 agreement (like esolang wiki also has)?
03:01:05 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ shopt -u extglob globstar \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
03:01:35 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
03:02:04 <oerjan> `sled bin/bf//s,/ha.*8/cat --/
03:02:05 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 16: unterminated `s' command
03:02:11 <oerjan> `sled bin/bf//s,/ha.*8,cat --,
03:02:14 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | cat -- <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
03:02:38 <oerjan> `run bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
03:02:58 <oerjan> `` bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
03:03:06 <oerjan> ``` bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
03:03:18 <oerjan> indeed it's the wrapper breaking except with run
03:03:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
03:03:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
03:05:26 <hppavilion[1]> What If 140 links to https://www.amazon.com/s/?url=search-alias%3Dindustrial&field-keywords=infinitely+dense+object
03:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> (followed by The Big Book of Christian Apologetics
03:07:39 <oerjan> `run bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.' | wc
03:08:00 <oerjan> hm but even run breaks with a pipe after.
03:08:46 <oerjan> `run bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.!hi' | wc
03:08:50 <oerjan> `run bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.!hi'
03:09:12 <hppavilion[1]> If an extremely heavy black hole (let's say its event horizon would have 10x the radius of the Milky Way, just for fun) were to form
03:09:24 <hppavilion[1]> Would the event horizon continually expand outwards at the speed of light
03:09:32 <hppavilion[1]> Leading to the terrifying image of the stars going out?
03:09:56 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, the event horizon would reach us at the same time as the last light from those stars...)
03:10:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the only way it can form that way is by a lot of material falling into it.
03:10:35 <oerjan> and i'm not sure that can happen that fast, given lightspeed.
03:10:37 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Let's say there's a lot of material in the same place all of a sudden for no reason
03:11:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you cannot. general relativity assumes energy conservation.
03:11:46 <oerjan> without it, it simply doesn't give an answer to such questions.
03:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> How about the black hole already existed very far away, in an area that we're allowed to not understand?
03:12:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: those thought experiments are a pet peeve of mine, precisely because you're violating the only theory you have to answer it.
03:13:58 <oerjan> i suppose what you could have, is an extremely heavy black hole approaching our galaxy with near light speed.
03:14:32 <hppavilion[1]> (hm, how does a moving black hole's event horizon look?)
03:15:14 <oerjan> ouch, i don't know exactly, but i've seen simulations of some freaky lenslike effects
03:15:39 <oerjan> basically, you see it only through how it bends light around it
03:18:25 <oerjan> i think that effect is one of the things they're hoping to see with telescope observations
03:19:37 * oerjan hates it when putty gets so slow he cannot estimate how many characters he's typed/deleted and keeps making new typos when fixing old ones
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03:23:27 <HackEgo> cmdhist on \ extglob on \ extquote on \ force_fignore on \ globstar on \ hostcomplete on \ interactive_commentson \ progcomp on \ promptvars on \ sourcepath on
03:24:18 <HackEgo> cmdhist on \ extquote on \ force_fignore on \ hostcomplete on \ interactive_commentson \ progcomp on \ promptvars on \ sourcepath on
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03:26:19 <oerjan> `run bash -c "bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'"
03:26:25 <oerjan> `run bash -c "bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'" | wc
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03:28:18 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | cat -- <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
03:28:53 <oerjan> `sled bin/bf//4iecho "$ci"
03:28:56 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo "$ci" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | cat -- <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
03:29:04 <oerjan> `run bash -c "bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'" | wc
03:29:08 <oerjan> `run bash -c "bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'"
03:29:09 <HackEgo> +++++++++[->++++++++<]>. \ +++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
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03:29:55 <oerjan> `` bash -c "bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'"
03:30:49 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#!/bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo "$ci" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | cat -- <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
03:30:54 <oerjan> `` bash -c "bf '+++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'"
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03:31:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /msg: No such file or directory
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03:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Deadfish 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49587 * Darkrifts * (+126) Created page with "Is the '''h''' command implied at EOF? ~~~~"
03:54:17 <oerjan> \oren\: moon_: i'd like to point out that by moving spam pages you made us miss them in the cleanup tdnh
03:55:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Deletethis]]": Spam: content was: "#REDIRECT [[Talk:Deletethis]]" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Dorissominever|Dorissominever]]")
03:56:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Talk:Deletethis]]": Spam: content before blanking was: "Q.B B.B.B.B.B 1.8.8.8 5.1.3 5.9.7.8 Quickbooks t.e.c.h S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r Quickbooks t.e.c.h.n.i.c.a.l S.u.p.p.o.r.t p.h.o.n.e N.u.m.b.e.r call 1888-513-5978@./QuickBooks contact number, QuickBooks conta..."
03:57:20 <oerjan> basically, fizzie's super-efficient spam cleanup depends on the pages being touched _only_ by the spammers. or thereabouts.
03:58:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Deletethis2]]": Spam: content before blanking was: "QuickBooks Pro Phone number 1888!!513!!5978 Quickbooks Pro Technical Support Phone Number Quickbooks Pro Customer Support Number QB Helpline-))1888!513!5978--((QuickBooks tech .support phone number usa Helpline))1888 513..."
03:59:23 <oerjan> ok, now i don't see any more in recent changes
04:02:58 <\oren\> I used 'no ni' in a english sentence
04:03:18 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAA i'm embarrassed!
04:03:27 <oerjan> now you must commit seppuku
04:06:11 <oerjan> <orin> @tell fizzie we need to implement a wikibot that deletes any page with the word Quickbooks on it <-- although we could make a rule blocking that word, unfortunately they sometimes insert invisible characters between the letters, so it's a bit tricky.
04:07:18 <myname> eventually somebody moght want to make an esolang calöed quickbook
04:07:40 <oerjan> myname: indeed. it wouldn't be the first time we do something like that.
04:08:14 <oerjan> (see: Real Fast Nora's Hair Saloon: Shear Disaster Download)
04:09:47 <myname> but it's a way better name than quickbooks pro technical yupport phone number
04:09:52 <oerjan> i suppose if we combined that with the title length rule...
04:14:12 * oerjan reverts bin/bf back to what it was - still no real clue why it's breaking
04:15:56 <oerjan> `bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
04:17:03 <oerjan> basically the expression to take out the part after ! doesn't work if ! is missing.
04:17:14 <oerjan> (it should be empty, but is the whole program)
04:17:26 <FreeFull> It'd be easy to just ignore any non-ASCII characters
04:17:30 <myname> but why is the xomma missing
04:17:32 <FreeFull> But then they could use cyrillic characters or something
04:18:36 <myname> the output of hackego looks ,[.] here
04:18:56 <myname> ah, my terminal was broken
04:19:23 <myname> i'm not sure why, though
04:19:29 <oerjan> izabera: maybe you can see why HackEgo's bf doesn't work when run with `` or ``` (or with `run and piping into anything)
04:20:10 <izabera> `` bf "++++++++[->++++++++<]>."
04:20:14 <oerjan> izabera: i mean when you quote correctly
04:20:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49588&oldid=49170 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+5879)
04:20:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
04:21:13 <oerjan> the error cannot be _just_ in bin/` and bin/``, because `run sometimes breaks too
04:21:32 <HackEgo> !\.´ \ +[[-] \ advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
04:21:35 <oerjan> although i guess the rnooodl could be what triggers it in them.
04:21:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49589&oldid=49588 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+22)
04:22:08 <izabera> that looks like a failed attempt
04:23:35 <oerjan> myname: you probably used ´ quotes somehow, and the shell interpreted the > inside as output redirects
04:23:36 <izabera> dunno, the bash part looks fine...
04:24:08 <oerjan> izabera: i think the error is in bf (a bash program, wrapping gregor's interpreter - which works by itself)
04:24:24 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
04:24:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49590&oldid=49589 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-15)
04:25:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49591&oldid=49590 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-9)
04:26:44 <izabera> otherwise it wouldn't work with `bf
04:26:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49592&oldid=49591 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+1)
04:27:30 <oerjan> `run \! 'bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
04:27:36 <oerjan> `run \! 'bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.' | cat
04:27:44 <oerjan> `` \! 'bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.'
04:27:57 <oerjan> the ! way of running it works.
04:28:04 <oerjan> `` \! 'bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.' | wc
04:28:20 <oerjan> `` bf '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.' | wc
04:29:06 <oerjan> izabera: these interpreters were copied from EgoBot, ! is a compatibility command because EgoBot had a different convention
04:29:43 <oerjan> however, ! doesn't handle EgoBot's ! separator for bf
04:30:00 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
04:30:27 <oerjan> izabera: oh, note one more thing: i experimented with replacing the wrapped interpreter with cat -- , and it still broke.
04:31:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ulimits: not found
04:31:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ulimit: not found
04:32:09 <oerjan> i'm wondering if HackEgo has any limits on process number, EgoBot did...
04:32:36 <HackEgo> core file size (blocks, -c) 0 \ data seg size (kbytes, -d) unlimited \ scheduling priority (-e) 0 \ file size (blocks, -f) 10240 \ pending signals (-i) 1949 \ max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 0 \ max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited \ open files (-n) 102
04:34:31 * oerjan keeps procrastinating eating ->
04:35:49 <oerjan> `` ulimit -a | grep proc
04:35:51 <HackEgo> max user processes (-u) 128
04:36:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
04:36:39 <oerjan> `sled bin/`//s, [|] rnoo.*,,
04:36:42 <HackEgo> bin/`//#!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1"
04:37:14 <oerjan> the `` and ``` only break more than `run because they have a final pipe at the end
04:37:26 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
04:37:53 <oerjan> it seems like any pipe does it.
04:38:44 <HackEgo> +[[-]<+++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]
04:39:01 <oerjan> `mk test//++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
04:39:44 <oerjan> `` /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 test | cat
04:39:59 <oerjan> and the problem doesn't exist for that one
04:40:19 <oerjan> `` /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo "++++++++[->++++++++<]>.") | cat
04:40:56 <oerjan> `` echo ',[.,]' | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:41:10 <oerjan> `` echo ',[.,]' | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo ",[.,]")
04:41:23 <oerjan> scratch that. there is a bug in it.
04:41:47 <oerjan> but it only happens when it's deep in a pipe chain?
04:42:22 <oerjan> `` echo ',[.,]' | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 test
04:42:28 <oerjan> `` echo ',[.,]' | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 test | cat
04:43:19 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:43:39 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:43:43 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]")
04:44:40 <oerjan> izabera: huh, it seems to be a combination of several shell features. pipes both in front and behind, and process substitution.
04:44:59 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | cat -- "<(echo ",[.,]")" | cat
04:45:01 <HackEgo> cat: <(echo ,[.,]): No such file or directory
04:45:23 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | echo <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:45:31 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | echo <(echo ",[.,]")
04:45:37 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | echo <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:45:54 <oerjan> `run echo <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:46:25 <oerjan> hm could it be that the substitution gives a process dependent name
04:48:51 <oerjan> `run echo ",[.,]" | echo <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:49:15 <oerjan> `run echo ",[.,]" | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:49:38 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:49:55 <oerjan> `` echo ",[.,]" | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:50:02 <oerjan> ``` echo ",[.,]" | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:50:21 <oerjan> on that, _only_ ``` breaks
04:50:25 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
04:50:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
04:51:59 <HackEgo> bin/``//#!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$1" | rnooodl
04:52:04 <oerjan> ``` echo ",[.,]" | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
04:52:15 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
05:13:26 <HackEgo> #! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$*" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
05:14:16 <oerjan> `sled bin/bf//s/[*]/1/
05:14:20 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$1" \ echo -n "${ci#1!}" | /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}")
05:15:38 <oerjan> well that wasn't it, but there seems to be no point in $* there
05:16:44 <oerjan> maybe it's an error in umlbox itself
05:17:56 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
05:18:06 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | echo -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
05:18:45 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | { cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") } | cat
05:18:46 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
05:19:15 <quintopia> i wonder if there are any humans who can sing this fast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvTH7J2shuI
05:19:21 <oerjan> `` echo ',[.,]' | { cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") } | cat
05:19:22 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
05:19:28 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | { cat -- <(echo ",[.,]"); } | cat
05:19:47 <oerjan> `` echo ',[.,]' | { cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") } | cat
05:19:48 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
05:20:09 <oerjan> `run echo ',[.,]' | cat -- <(echo ",[.,]") | cat
05:21:34 <oerjan> `sled bin/bf//$s,[|] \(.*\),| { \1 ; },
05:21:38 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$1" \ echo -n "${ci#1!}" | { /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}") ; }
05:22:17 <oerjan> quintopia: I HAVE FIXED bin/bf HTH
05:22:18 <shachaf> the rules require it to be run in the public channel
05:22:27 <shachaf> Doesn't `! bf already exist for this?
05:22:41 <oerjan> shachaf: `! bf doesn't support !
05:23:41 <oerjan> `` bf '>+[[-]<+++++++++++.----------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
05:23:59 <oerjan> quintopia: bin/bf already existed
05:24:10 <oerjan> but it had a bug that made it impossible to use in a pipe
05:24:59 <oerjan> i'm not sure exactly why, since the bug doesn't happen on a real linux command line, but adding { } around the central part seems to have fixed it.
05:25:36 <oerjan> quintopia: also, i did several experiments in private, although i seemed to slip up again
05:28:02 <oerjan> i see that the other bug is even sillier than i thought
05:30:13 <HackEgo> bin/bf//#! /bin/bash \ [[ $# > 0 ]] || { echo "Run what?"; exit 1; } \ ci="$1" \ echo -n "${ci#*!}" | { /hackenv/interps/egobf/src/egobfi8 <(echo -n "${ci%%!*}") ; }
05:30:34 <oerjan> i forgot to restrict a sled to just the one line
05:34:27 <oerjan> `run bf '>+[[-]<+++++++++++.----------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
05:34:33 <oerjan> `` bf '>+[[-]<+++++++++++.----------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
05:34:38 <oerjan> ``` bf '>+[[-]<+++++++++++.----------[>+>+<<-]>>[-<<+>>]<----]' | ord
05:35:14 <oerjan> @tell izabera i managed to fix bin/bf with strategically placed { ; } s; i'm not sure why it failed in the first place.
05:35:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49593&oldid=48971 * DatCodingGuy * (+118) /* Normal implementations */
05:36:39 <oerjan> oh i took your "too complex for 5 am" as a sign you were going to bed >:)
05:37:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49594&oldid=49586 * DatCodingGuy * (+135) /* Interpreter */
05:37:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49595&oldid=49594 * DatCodingGuy * (+9) /* Interpreter */
05:38:12 <oerjan> unless you were in bed already back then.
05:38:24 <shachaf> can't you go from bed to bed
05:55:45 <oerjan> @tell ais523 oh hm. some of the spammers today did _not_ do an initial trivial edit.
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06:07:36 <oerjan> @tell ais523 Yep, they've definitely learned to make paragraphs.
06:10:46 <oerjan> @tell fizzie I'm afraid my filter change won't be enough - some of yesterday's spam wouldn't have been caught.
06:13:28 * oerjan ponders if it would be possible to make a sentinel page that shuts off the wiki in an emergency
06:16:53 <zzo38> Probably you should not deny read access in most cases, even if there might be a few cases where temporarily disabling write access is necessary; read access should hardly ever be disabled if at all.
06:17:15 <oerjan> i have never considered disabling read access.
06:18:39 <zzo38> Disabling read access during a software upgrade may be useful if the ways the upgrade works is in ways that makes this useful, but it should try to be kept to a minimum so that read access is available for the maximum amount of time reasonably possible.
06:19:16 <oerjan> zzo38: i am speaking about spam prevention - some way to shut it down even if an admin is not present.
06:19:27 <zzo38> (Even if read access is disabled during a software upgrade, the XML dumps should probably remain available if possible (that is, it does not require the server to be down).)
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06:26:37 <zzo38> Please see http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/tktview/e71ea80bbdcb339bb61617cfe9fb16d3a0c65013 tell me if you have the comment of it maybe you understand the issues involved better than I do; have you dealt with CC0 before and with contribution agreements?
06:36:56 -!- AlexR42 has joined.
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07:40:59 <lambdabot> I reject the cynical view that politics is a dirty business.
07:41:05 <lambdabot> Government enterprise is the most inefficient and costly way of producing jobs.
07:41:06 <lambdabot> I don't know anything that builds the will to win better than competitive sports.
07:41:07 <lambdabot> People react to fear, not love; they don't teach that in Sunday School, but it's true.
07:41:08 <lambdabot> It is necessary for me to establish a winner image. Therefore, I have to beat somebody.
08:01:41 <shachaf> Is this an attention thing?
08:01:45 <shachaf> Why are you saying my name?
08:02:31 <Cale> shachaf: shachaf hth
08:03:02 <HackEgo> Cale is the inventor of the calzone.
08:03:28 <shachaf> You should put a better wisdom entry there.
08:03:37 <shachaf> Obviously the calzone was invented by Taneb.
08:03:47 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
08:04:10 <moon_> but the universe has sex in it?
08:05:04 <Cale> moon_: Sex was introduced to the universe after he sold the company though.
08:05:47 <shachaf> If A invents B and B invents C, there's no reason to say that A invented C.
08:05:52 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
08:05:58 <HackEgo> The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
08:06:24 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
08:06:53 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, and villages in Norway. Taneb invented it.
08:07:07 <HackEgo> A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
08:07:35 <HackEgo> <shachaf> forget cale \ <shachaf> learn Cale is the inventor of the calzone.
08:10:28 <shachaf> `learn A calzone is a part of California. They include norcal and socal.
08:10:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'calzone': A calzone is a part of California. They include norcal and socal.
08:14:05 <shachaf> Cale: You should move to Ontario, CA
08:14:20 <shachaf> Although it's not in the best calzone.
08:14:33 <oerjan> oh wait there _is_ rate limiting.
08:14:43 <oerjan> it's just not in the filter rule itself.
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08:16:05 <oerjan> oh hm i may have done something wrong here
08:19:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-maybefalsepositive-warning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49596&oldid=49584 * Oerjan * (+88) Oops, realized this message may be used by other filters
08:22:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-timelimit-warning]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49597 * Oerjan * (+271) Make a new message
08:22:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/7]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/7/diff/prev/41]])
08:23:40 <oerjan> annoyingly, "what links here" doesn't work to find filters using them
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09:52:40 <oerjan> @ask fizzie Does the wiki have object caching? The abuse filter documentation says this is necessary for group throttling, which looks useful for such big spam events...
09:54:08 <oerjan> @tell fizzie ( https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:AbuseFilter/Actions#Throttling )
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10:12:22 <oerjan> tswett is also a wiki administrator. he's so easy to forget :P
10:14:42 <oerjan> and he's even amer^Wantarctic
10:28:31 <oerjan> <\oren\> wait, back there an ip address managed to create a page! <-- it's like they're just demonstrating that all our simple tricks are useless.
10:30:19 <oerjan> @tell ais523 they must be good at solving the captcha too, some of them aren't even bothering to register first
10:30:57 <oerjan> @tell fizzie they must be good at solving the captcha too, some of them weren't even bothering to register first
10:33:08 <FireFly> what I don't understand is how the effort they put to it could possibly make it worth it
10:34:42 <oerjan> clearly they are making up on volume hth
10:35:59 <oerjan> <int-e> myname: perhaps the idea is to ask some search engine to index the pages and then get better ranked search results for those phone numbers... people never have to visit the actual page for that to work.
10:36:28 <oerjan> FireFly: best explanation i've seen so far
10:37:54 <oerjan> of course, google probably has countermeasures. last time they even emailed fizzie a while later to tell him about the spam
10:40:04 <oerjan> @ask moon_ <moonythedwarf_> i cant find a unlambda interpreter thats noninteractive ): <-- what's wrong with the ones in the official distribution?
10:40:34 <oerjan> (well, the C one has a bug, e doesn't work. but other than that...)
10:40:44 <oerjan> @tell moon_ (well, the C one has a bug, e doesn't work. but other than that...)
10:44:49 * oerjan might recommend his haskell one, except his original has bitrotted since the AMP change and the descendant lambdabot uses is no longer standalone he thinks
10:45:20 <oerjan> i guess i could fix it.
10:45:54 <oerjan> oh. it doesn't even use hierarchical modules.
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11:15:42 <oerjan> @ask fizzie would it be possible to make the HackEgo link interruptible from irc somehow? say, with a sentinel file in /hackenv/tmp or something.
11:16:38 <oerjan> @tell fizzie or from the wiki side by ordinary (non-new) users.
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11:18:42 <FireFly> of something I should ask someone
11:19:00 <oerjan> FireFly: hm that doesn't help with ordinary users part
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11:26:13 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> Is there a root mean cube? <-- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp_space
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11:30:57 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: in the limit as n->infty, the nthrootmeannthpower goes to...0 I think! <-- nope, it goes to the absolute value of the maximum hth
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11:31:28 <oerjan> @tell quintopia or wait, are you doing ^n at the end
11:31:58 <oerjan> (no, that's not a language. that i know of.)
11:33:13 <oerjan> darn i did that thing where i don't read to the end again.
11:35:27 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Aug 18 12:35:26 2016
11:35:50 <boily> why was I under the impression that it was nighttime in oerjanland...
11:36:52 <oerjan> well technically at this time yesterday i was just going to bed.
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13:24:47 <PinealGlandOptic> hi everyone! I need a RNG which can generate a bit, 1 in 70% of cases and 0 in 30% cases. while this is achieved simply, are there a correct name for it? API? how these functions are usually called?
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14:05:26 <Boys> what's the hardest esolang to compile proven that it is possible to compile?
14:06:57 <Boys> download C++ compiler-->win
14:15:02 <Boys> just asking cause I've got an idea and I'd like to know if something similiar had yet been made. It's "Riemann Befunge"-Befunge-93 with additional command "R". If the Riemann hypothesis is true it outputs 0 and if it's false it outputs 1
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14:19:31 <alercah> if you're just trying to make a language which can't be implemented
14:19:39 <alercah> input is a turing machine, output is whether it halts
14:21:39 <Boys> I don't understand the last sentence
14:22:15 <alercah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
14:23:25 <FireFly> Boys: sounds similar in spirit to Banana Scheme or Brainhype
14:25:23 <Boys> alercah: oh ok sorry i didn't get it. AFAIK the halting problem program is sure to be impossible while "Riemann Befunge" is sure to be possible we just need answer. So there is a big difference
14:41:56 <FreeFull> You can't compile arbitrary C++ programs without solving the halting problem, because the templates allow arbitrary computation at compile time
14:42:26 <FreeFull> Boys: Is there a proof the Riemann hypothesis is actually decidable though?
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14:45:57 <Boys> FireFly: thanks, i'm not sure but from what I've noticed Banana Scheme is rather a thought experiment than a language. Im nowhere near an expert but from the discussion on Brainhype I've concluded that with better specification it's eiter not computable or easly computable. If that's true then they are both different in the "spirit" than Riemann Befunge
14:49:03 <alercah> there is no proof that the Riemann hypothesis is decidable, no
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15:20:34 <Boys> i didn't know this possibility thank you for pointing it out
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15:42:40 <Jafet> actually there is an interpreter for riemann befunge, but its implementation of R may have slightly nonstandard behaviour
15:43:23 <Jafet> there is a bug report for this on the ubuntu launchpad, which has been closed and reopened five times
15:45:39 <izabera> "R is buggy" "no it's not" "of course it is" "prove it"
15:47:21 <Jafet> the upstream developer has added a command-line flag to change the behaviour of R to match the well-known commercial riemann befunge interpreters, but called it --riem-me-harder which will delay its merge into the next ubuntu release
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15:52:42 <oerjan> Boys: i think there's already an esolang like that, but based on a different problem.
15:54:25 <oerjan> hmph i cannot remember which it was
15:57:45 <oerjan> hm i may have been remembering Bueue, which doesn't really fit
16:02:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jiloanjilo * New user account
16:03:47 <oerjan> hm no immediate spam attempt
16:05:19 <izabera> speaking of spam, why does gmail mark as spam normal stuff in mailing lists i care about, and let this slip through? http://i.imgur.com/RgRDxAg.png
16:06:24 -!- AlexR42 has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
16:13:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Jiloanjilo]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Future spammer
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16:13:37 <oerjan> (Also past, if you google a bit)
16:16:19 <\oren\> Oh god I hate good mythical morning.
16:16:46 <oerjan> i guess i should be happy not to know what that is, then.
16:17:19 <\oren\> you should. it is... crap in a box.
16:19:04 <\oren\> anyway, I called the "intuit quickbooks helpline" and made a bunch of legal threats
16:19:49 <oerjan> i suppose they won't care unless they're actually in north america.
16:19:58 <\oren\> It appears they're in Pakistan
16:23:01 <\oren\> Maybe we can just geoip block the whole country
16:23:29 <oerjan> except ais523 said the spammers are coming from india.
16:23:51 <oerjan> and has already blocked several ip ranges.
16:27:08 <oerjan> also, i should reiterate that technically, tswett is also a wiki administrator, in case you get caught without the rest of us again.
16:27:46 <oerjan> at least he's in a different timezone.
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16:54:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/7]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/7/diff/prev/42]])
16:54:26 <oerjan> just made the description match what it now does
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17:04:19 * oerjan hopes this is not a bad idea
17:04:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/8]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/8/diff/prev/43]])
17:09:07 <fizzie> What I don't understand is why it's almost always exclusively these QuickBooks support phone numbers.
17:10:05 <oerjan> fizzie: that jiloanjilo guy i just preemptively banned was also spamming something else on other sites.
17:10:23 <fizzie> Yes. But also more QuickBooks.
17:10:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Interruptible from the wiki side is hard, but interruptible with a /hackenv/tmp "lock file" should be possible, the repo is visible in the filesystem.
17:11:25 <fizzie> Probably with some `tools to make that happen.
17:11:47 <fizzie> I'll take a look once I get home from this exciting adventure.
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17:12:53 <oerjan> note that /hackenv/tmp is the directory that isn't version controlled.
17:13:24 <oerjan> although i guess this won't be used that often, so maybe it doesn't have to be there.
17:13:47 <oerjan> although the repository mechanism might mess up special files if it isn't.
17:17:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/8]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/8/diff/prev/44]])
17:23:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-shutdown-warning]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49598 * Oerjan * (+292) Warning message for new emergency filter
17:27:06 <quintopia> this seems like a job for mAcHiNe LeArNiNg ClAsSiFiErS!
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17:27:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 56m 41s ago: <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: in the limit as n->infty, the nthrootmeannthpower goes to...0 I think! <-- nope, it goes to the absolute value of the maximum hth
17:27:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 56m 11s ago: or wait, are you doing ^n at the end
17:27:41 <oerjan> i'm sure there's some extension that does that.
17:27:55 <oerjan> quintopia: NEVER MIND THOSE
17:28:06 <quintopia> oerjan: yes i came to that conclusion too
17:28:34 <oerjan> it was a well-known fact in L^p space theory, as i recall.
17:29:34 <oerjan> i think maybe you get the minimum as p -> 0, too, although that's not technically a norm.
17:29:39 <quintopia> i was just confused on what nth roots do in the limit. i alreasy knew the L_infty part
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18:00:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mk
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19:03:23 <zzo38> For my Magic: the Gathering cards now I have made also the updated Genericas. So now I have six such cards, which are called: Generica, Grass Generica, Fire Generica, Water Generica, Light Generica, Dark Generica. I have also added the "bands with other" ability to each of them.
19:07:26 <zzo38> For example one of them now is: Grass Generica {G} Creature - Generica (1/1) ;; Bands with other non-green Genericas ;; If you control other creatures named Fire Generica and Water Generica then ~ has +2/+2.
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19:30:15 <HackEgo> olist 1049: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:49:14 <\oren\> Oh god dammit google won't leave me alone
20:52:41 <\oren\> Argh google's recruiters are seriously pushy
20:53:31 <\oren\> I'll contact YOU when I want a new job, maybe!
21:12:17 <alercah> tell them to find me a job instead
21:14:59 <\oren\> alercah: are you on linkedin maybe that will work
21:15:18 <alercah> there aren't any google jobs available I want anyway
21:24:12 <alercah> Even if they had one that interested me (possible), they don't have any that don't require relocation
21:24:18 <alercah> but I'm very happy where I am too
21:26:21 <\oren\> yeah I am not moving to california. no way san jose
21:29:15 <\oren\> shachaf: It's in america
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21:29:34 <\oren\> Canada is better than america
21:30:55 <int-e> . o O ( which continent is Canada on again... )
21:33:41 <\oren\> now if a company offered me a spot in, say, London, I'd have a lot more trouble turning them down.
21:33:45 <shachaf> I don't know whether Canada is better, but is it that much better?
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21:34:48 <\oren\> shachaf: it's where americans threaen to move if the other party wins.
21:35:44 <shachaf> What are the disadvantages of the US?
21:37:04 <\oren\> shachaf: well, your violent crime rate is way higher, you have an expensive healthcare system, your weather is hotter (in general), and your government is really, really, incompetent and corrupt
21:37:22 <shachaf> Are you talking about Finland here?
21:37:36 <shachaf> I don't think those are true about Finland at all.
21:37:41 <\oren\> no, the united states.
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21:41:39 <\oren\> shachaf: wait I thought you live in California?
21:42:04 <HackEgo> Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
21:43:27 <shachaf> Don't you live in Toronto or Waterloo or something?
21:43:39 <\oren\> shachaf: Downtown toronto.
21:44:10 <alercah> \oren\: you should come here
21:44:41 <shachaf> alercah: Weren't you just asking for a job?
21:45:44 <shachaf> I found out that an upper bound on healthcare cost that I should expect to pay would be ~$10k/year.
21:48:16 <shachaf> Which is expensive, of course, but probably not materially different in this context.
21:48:43 <shachaf> The weather in the US is very varied.
21:48:57 <lambdabot> CYYZ 182000Z CCA VRB03KT 15SM BKN050TCU BKN080 BKN250 27/18 A3000 RMK TCU5AC1CI1 CI TR TCU ALQDS SLP157 DENSITY ALT 2000FT
21:49:11 <lambdabot> KOAK 181953Z 30015KT 10SM FEW013 21/14 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP119 T02060139
21:50:48 <shachaf> What do you think of the former mayor of Toronto?
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21:53:29 <\oren\> Rob Ford, the crack smoking mayor of Toronto. He was really stupid but his voters actually adored him since he actually cared about them. His union-busting politics might have done some good, but was prevented by special interests.
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21:54:27 <\oren\> Mostly he was rendered powerless by the city council, as soon as they figured out how stupid he was.
21:55:27 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjdTi1r-yRQ
22:17:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49599&oldid=49587 * DatCodingGuy * (+415)
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22:58:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: isOerjanAsleep: not found
22:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> (`isOerjanAsleep would be a useful command, though it should probably be more illegible for *n?x-compatibility)
22:59:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ioas: not found
23:00:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11h 33m 47s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Is there a root mean cube? <-- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp_space
23:01:21 <boily> . o O ( hmm.. that wasabi tastes nothing... )
23:02:19 * boily puts a large dollop of wasabi in his mouth... “yup, that's some weekass wasabi. weekabi.ʼn
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23:06:00 <boily> `relcome byteflame
23:06:03 <HackEgo> byteflame: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:07:08 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 12h 27m 3s ago: <moonythedwarf_> i cant find a unlambda interpreter thats noninteractive ): <-- what's wrong with the ones in the official distribution?
23:07:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 26m 23s ago: (well, the C one has a bug, e doesn't work. but other than that...)
23:08:21 <moon_> Me and two others got a open interpreter sandbox bot up and running. rebot1. Python C C++ haskell
23:08:31 <moon_> i wasn't dont typing
23:09:24 <moon_> (hugs), pascall ruby perl JS (node) coffeescript. i think thats it
23:10:08 <boily> hppavilion[1]: eating, typing and orthographing at the same time is NP hard hth
23:12:13 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i want to see that proof
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23:13:57 <boily> the sushi is too narrow for the proof to fit in.
23:14:52 <shachaf> myname: You're thinking of typography, not orthography.
23:15:02 <shachaf> Do orthographers use proofs?
23:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I've always thought the EaTyOr problem was NQP
23:16:22 <FireFly> Hm, we have a lack-of-HackEgo situation
23:16:50 <boily> hellochaf, FirelloFly.
23:17:02 <boily> int-e: int-ello. HACKEGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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23:17:54 <hppavilion[1]> If I'm a buddhist, and I have to simplify my life, what complexity classes are problems in my life allowed to fall in?
23:18:32 <myname> L is a horrible name for a complexity class
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23:22:05 <int-e> boily: I have nothing to do with HackEgo
23:22:25 <boily> oops. you lambdabot.
23:22:34 <boily> who hackegoes again?
23:22:38 <int-e> fizzie has some powers over it
23:24:08 <int-e> wiki is gone too, may be the whole VM ;/
23:24:09 <fizzie> Yeah, but I don't know the exact incantation to start it.
23:24:21 <int-e> or is it just too slow?
23:24:41 <fizzie> Well, it's not answering my ssh in a reasonable time.
23:24:43 <fizzie> It might still answer.
23:24:52 <fizzie> I'm pretty away at the moment anyway.
23:25:34 <int-e> it's not the whole CaC that's gone under though
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23:34:41 <HackEgo> ievan//ievan is basically http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4om1rQKPijI
23:38:41 <\oren\> hey that's not right! where's miku twirling a leek
23:40:59 <boily> he\\oren\! back to your backslashes?
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01:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> I just read about four-color glossies and marketroids
01:24:53 <hppavilion[1]> Do marketing departments ever actually promise that a product will do something in violation of the laws of physics?
01:26:03 <boily> it's more surprising when they don't.
01:26:26 <boily> hppavilion[1]: are you reading the http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/index.html per chance?
01:30:56 <boily> how many sides to a scowgon?
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01:35:54 <boily> `relcome codergeek42
01:35:55 <HackEgo> codergeek42: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:36:40 <codergeek42> Hello; and thanks for the colorful welcome, haha :)
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02:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn scowgon file/The scowgon file requires Scala to open
02:46:25 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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04:49:15 <Lymia> I forgot the commands :(
04:49:18 <zemhill__> Lymia: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
04:49:24 <Lymia> !zjoust test ({<})%0
04:49:25 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
04:49:32 <Lymia> !zjoust test ({})%0
04:49:33 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -34.00, score 2.61, rank 47/47 (--)
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06:27:07 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> L <-- itym NC^0 hth
06:31:33 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> how many sides to a scowgon? <-- bleen hth
06:32:48 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> `revert <-- PSA: `revert doesn't work after file creation.
06:33:22 <oerjan> maybe it did, this time.
06:33:39 <HackEgo> The scowgon file requires Scala to open
06:43:27 <pikhq> Scowgon? Does that form a scowhedron?
07:11:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Then what did it do?
07:11:42 <lambdabot> oerjan said 44m 35s ago: <shachaf> L <-- itym NC^0 hth
07:11:42 <lambdabot> oerjan said 38m 53s ago: <shachaf> `revert <-- PSA: `revert doesn't work after file creation.
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07:35:59 <oerjan> shachaf: probably a stupid bug not treating deleted files correctly?
07:36:18 <oerjan> so they're not removed from the hg repository.
07:37:10 <oerjan> although it will look in HackEgo like they were removed, until a later change synchronizes with the repository
07:38:13 <oerjan> i think fizzie or someone looked into it at one point.
07:38:37 <oerjan> but it's in the part of HackEgo that he doesn't feel authorized to change.
07:39:23 <oerjan> (especially since he doesn't have access to where Gregor keeps the repository for HackEgo's own code
07:40:09 <oerjan> idle : 26 days 4 hours 10 mins 28 secs [signon: Sun Jul 24 04:29:24 2016]
07:40:28 <oerjan> one wonders why Gregor even logs on
07:41:01 <pikhq> Habit, obligation, forgetting to log off but just being way too busy?
07:41:34 <oerjan> the last one looks most likely to me
07:42:01 <pikhq> I hear "professor" is a busy job if you do it right.
07:43:08 <oerjan> you have to wear many hats. gregor should be good at that.
07:44:27 <oerjan> choosemyhat.com doesn't look too active.
07:44:58 <pikhq> Maybe we should choose some hats and surprise him.
07:47:46 * pikhq would like to applaud his choice of academic website... http://the.gregor.institute/
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10:18:30 <Taneb> I haven't been on IRC much lately
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11:40:16 <HackEgo> just//Just is just a just adverb.
11:42:06 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 10m 33s ago: <boily> how many sides to a scowgon? <-- bleen hth
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12:16:14 <Lymia> !zhill test (.{<})*-1
12:16:27 <Lymia> !zjoust test (.{<})*-1
12:16:29 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -34.00, score 2.61, rank 47/47 (--)
12:16:39 <Lymia> !zjoust test ({<})*-1
12:16:39 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--)
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14:08:29 <Lymia> My bfjoust evaluator works
14:08:38 <Lymia> It evaluates Nyuroki correctly... let's see.
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14:11:02 <Lymia> Preperation fails.
14:11:10 <Lymia> I have no idea how it works and the minimal test case :(
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15:52:25 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
16:12:03 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *dron*
16:12:04 <HackEgo> cyberdrone drone drone sex
16:12:10 <HackEgo> cyberdrone is a drone flying in cyberspace.
16:12:24 <int-e> `cwlprits cyberdrone
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16:22:46 <Lymia> This crappy BFJoust parser is so slloooow
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17:37:28 <oerjan> fizzie: i think the wiki bridge is down hth
17:37:44 <oerjan> i think fizzie might be a bit down too.
17:39:23 * oerjan blocks the unsuccessful spammer
17:39:54 <Taneb> oerjan, it was rather spammy when I left on my travels
17:40:30 <oerjan> when was that. the spammers came back a couple days ago, more clever than ever
17:40:53 <Taneb> The third of this month
17:42:09 <oerjan> so now i'm waiting for ais523 to come back to see if he can outsmart them again, but i'm starting to get skeptical.
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17:43:39 <oerjan> oh there was an ip spammer too.
17:44:12 <oerjan> (see Special:AbuseLog)
17:46:19 <quintopia> oerjan: are the spam edits classified and logged?
17:46:36 <quintopia> like do we have years of tagged spam edits?
17:46:40 <oerjan> oh they're still trying.
17:46:53 <oerjan> quintopia: it might seem so.
17:47:57 <quintopia> oerjan: do all wiki edits get tossed into one log file or database record somewhere?
17:49:07 <oerjan> quintopia: i think it's in there, i just checked that i can see the spammer's attempted edits
17:49:42 <oerjan> maybe there's some cleanup of old ones, i wouldn't know.
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18:11:16 <oerjan> ok, there are blocked edits from 2013 with full diffs
18:11:36 <oerjan> so no automatic cleanup
18:12:48 <fizzie> I'll prop up the bridge once I'm at a table that I can fit a laptop on.
18:13:14 <oerjan> i see that some of the spammers from the other day got caught by the automatic ip block too
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18:22:23 <izabera> https://imgur.com/gallery/6Til9 how cute
18:38:10 <\oren\> izabera: I'm more interested in hwo they intend to sort the sand into colors again
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18:51:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/46248257d265f6b1e56554235cc2b9006da2eb6e.bfjoust
18:51:43 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/46248257d265f6b1e56554235cc2b9006da2eb6e.bfjoust
18:51:45 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -36.57, score 2.37, rank 47/47 (--)
18:53:15 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/5dfa80f615343cb8955dd64b594d98cdfafd63d9.bfjoust
18:53:17 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -36.86, score 2.28, rank 47/47 (--)
18:58:18 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/e331635fc748ebf9d201cfc674b190714fb03424.bfjoust
18:58:20 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -34.02, score 3.16, rank 47/47 (--)
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19:01:30 <zemhill__> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
19:01:47 <oerjan> Lymia: you can get some statistics from the website, i believe.
19:02:15 <Lymia> And the results are mind boggling wtf.
19:02:23 <Lymia> With the intent of this program in mind.
19:02:46 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/84827ed9ed0d4dc0cb7f8489e90df45ab5832318.bfjoust
19:02:48 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -33.90, score 3.14, rank 47/47 (--)
19:04:50 <Lymia> So the program just doesn't work.
19:08:19 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/7fdf75b11c9ea906754a8787e8199fdb409a99f3.bfjoust
19:08:20 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -33.90, score 3.14, rank 47/47 (--)
19:08:39 <Lymia> Now to figure out wht's wrong
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19:17:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:27:59 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/e0847898b2186628e6949965d0edfaab5736b8a9.bfjoust
19:28:01 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -35.10, score 2.96, rank 47/47 (--)
19:28:11 <fizzie> Oh right, that bridge.
19:29:21 <Lymia> It's achieving something now
19:30:57 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d75ff3e94b52bb1fe05dea7766829c6a0f8a6025.bfjoust
19:30:59 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -35.21, score 3.07, rank 47/47 (--)
19:31:38 <oerjan> you realize your points are going down hth
19:32:25 <oerjan> i guess it's been even lower
19:32:34 <zemhill__> oerjan.calibrate: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
19:32:56 <Lymia> The points are not what matters.
19:33:45 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/75a53eee87ad7d592fb32e331636cf253e87dd7d.bfjoust
19:33:47 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -26.33, score 7.22, rank 47/47
19:35:04 <Lymia> Now to actually debug this thing.
19:35:11 <\oren\> i wonder why melon soda isnt sold in canada
19:35:13 <Lymia> Since it woks on a proof of concept level.
19:35:33 <Lymia> The score breakdown should probably demonstrate what the intent of this is. :V
19:51:54 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/2a17d78342568d627b48ce9c4e8963bc406714d2.bfjoust
19:51:56 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -34.12, score 3.35, rank 47/47 (--)
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20:10:24 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--)
20:10:32 <Lymia> !zjoust hotel_bombing https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d7e1498f11a08cd81bb166dc5d89a6e0c240d1a5.bfjoust
20:10:34 <zemhill__> Lymia.hotel_bombing: points -34.14, score 3.08, rank 47/47
20:20:31 -!- moon_ has joined.
20:31:17 <Lymia> !zjoust hotel_bombing <
20:31:18 <zemhill__> Lymia.hotel_bombing: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--)
20:32:27 <Lymia> !zjoust determinism https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/b8c4f982e8134dde75c04d585514fcb9a34fcd31.bfjoust
20:32:29 <zemhill__> Lymia.determinism: points -23.05, score 9.63, rank 47/47
20:33:11 <myname> melon soda sounds awesome
20:35:19 <myname> oh, they don't sell it in europe either
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20:48:38 <\oren\> myname: It is amazing, in net cafes they have it on the self serve machines; but not sold anywhere in Canada, afaict.
20:49:42 <\oren\> You can also get a vanilla ice cream float with melon soda at certain places.
20:50:37 <myname> unless you send my some, in this case you are a hero
20:50:53 <\oren\> myname: Well I can't get any right now; I had it when I went to Tokyo
20:51:16 <\oren\> I'm trying toi figure out if I can get it delivered.
20:51:32 <myname> napajapan sells it for 4 bucks a buttle
20:51:48 <\oren\> but srsly melon ice cream float is like ADHD in a cup
20:52:08 <myname> also, i love read bean ice
20:52:16 <myname> that stuff is so damn delicious
20:52:28 <myname> the fuck is wrong with me today
20:56:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:59:46 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_availability_of_Fanta#Japan
21:00:10 <\oren\> that's gotta be like 50 flavors of fanta
21:01:32 <myname> i wonder what la france tastes like
21:04:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bodlypoqdorthys * New user account
21:06:20 <\oren\> I like spam and bacon sandwiches
21:07:36 <\oren\> lets see if they can get past the new filters
21:10:25 <\oren\> unless they're going to wait 24 hours and then start spamming
21:11:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.i.c.kb.o.ok.s. .su.p.po.r.t .p.h.o.n.e .n.u.m.b.er.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. Qui.ck.b.o.ok.s. .he.l.p. d.es..k .p.ho.n.e. .n.u.mb.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49607 * Bodlypoqdorthys * (+9894) Created page with "POINT OF SALE~SupPort◄1-888-513-5978► QuickBooks point of sale support phone number ◄QuickBooks point of sale customer care Phone
21:12:08 -!- jaboja has joined.
21:18:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Q.u.ic.k.bo.o.ks. p.r.e.mi.e.r. t.e.ch. .s.u.pp.o.r.t. .ph.o.n.e. .nu.m.b.erΏΏ1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8ΏΏ Qu.ic.k.bo.oks .p.r.em.i.er. t.e.ch. su.pp.o.rt .nu.mb.e.r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49608 * Bodlypoqdorthys * (+9894) Created page with "POINT OF SALE~SupPort◄1-888-513-5978► QuickBooks point of sale support phone number ◄QuickBooks poin
21:19:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/8]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/8/diff/prev/45]])
21:19:54 <oerjan> let's see how this works.
21:25:31 <oerjan> alas, this is a filter that simply forbids recent (< 24 hours) users, period.
21:25:51 <oerjan> so it's not very sustainable.
21:26:50 <oerjan> hm they don't seem to have tried again yet
21:27:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Q.u.ic.k.bo.o.ks. p.r.e.mi.e.r. t.e.ch. .s.u.pp.o.r.t. .ph.o.n.e. .nu.m.b.erΏΏ1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8ΏΏ Qu.ic.k.bo.oks .p.r.em.i.er. t.e.ch. su.pp.o.rt .nu.mb.e.r]]": Spam: content was: "POINT OF SALE~SupPort◄1-888-513-5978► QuickBooks point of sale support phone number ◄QuickBooks point of sale cust
21:27:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Bodlypoqdorthys]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
21:28:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Q.u.i.c.kb.o.ok.s. .su.p.po.r.t .p.h.o.n.e .n.u.m.b.er.1.8.8.8.5.1.3.5.9.7.8. Qui.ck.b.o.ok.s. .he.l.p. d.es..k .p.ho.n.e. .n.u.mb.e.r]]": Spam: content was: "POINT OF SALE~SupPort◄1-888-513-5978► QuickBooks point of sale support phone number ◄QuickBooks point of sale customer care Phone Number►P..."
21:30:07 <\oren\> Hmm maybe I can find out who their phone provider is and report them
21:31:35 <oerjan> btw the spammer tried 7 other edits that _were_ caught by the other filter.
21:32:16 <oerjan> bug question, should i disable the nuclear option again... i think not since i was half planning to go to bed soon.
21:38:56 <\oren\> their number is being served by Level 3 Communications. I am filing variius complaints
21:39:24 <\oren\> hopefully I will get in touch with the downstream provider and identify the scammer
21:40:19 <\oren\> When I called him he attempted to get my username and password, probably to install ransomware
21:41:28 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:44:49 <\oren\> and then he wanted me to enable windows' remote desktop stuff
21:44:59 <myname> what was the reason to dosable the nuclear option?
21:45:18 <myname> "i'm sorry, i run haiku"
21:46:02 <\oren\> No more like "sorry dude, that's the password to level 3 of Metroid"
21:46:19 <izabera> if you take 4 random points on a sphere, what's the avg volume of the tetrahedron?
21:47:00 <oerjan> myname: to allow normal people to register again?
21:47:31 <myname> oerjan: i thought the nuclear option was "you can register, but you cannot edit for 24 hours"
21:47:53 <oerjan> no, although maybe i should do that instead.
21:48:25 <myname> that way you can register, we can stop spam and serious accounts just do have to wait
21:49:31 <oerjan> i have a feeling the group throttling options for the filter aren't enabled, or else i could make a filter that limits the number of people registering and one that limits what each can edit...
21:49:47 <oerjan> *for the filter system
21:49:58 <oerjan> (the option looked greyed out)
21:51:59 <oerjan> i suppose fizzie might have some configuration options as well.
21:54:36 <quintopia> it would seem that a filter which autoblocks users who creates pages with titles that contain the string "Quickbooks" once all non-alphabetics are removed would be in order?
21:56:48 <myname> that would work for this specific spam
21:56:54 <myname> but not for spam in general
21:57:23 <quintopia> but it would give us some more insight into the sorts of things the spammers will try
21:59:07 <oerjan> oh the new filter caught someone.
22:01:33 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:22 <oerjan> it was not a quickbooks spam, and i think only that filter stopped it.
22:02:59 -!- augur has joined.
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22:05:03 <oerjan> no. 8 which disables everything by accounts < 24 hours
22:05:20 <hppavilion[1]> the DoJ announced it will no longer be contracting with private prisons!
22:06:52 <oerjan> it almost got caught by filter 3, except that only applies to userpages
22:11:59 <oerjan> @tell fizzie Spammers started again, I've used my new filter 8 to shut off new users entirely because I'm about to go to bed. (That also accidentally caught a non-quickbook spam by an IP.)
22:12:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
22:14:14 <\oren\> izabera: well, WLoG, we can consider the first point to be the north pole
22:15:38 <izabera> i tried generating a bunch of these and the smallest height ends up being surprisingly small
22:15:55 <izabera> or maybe not so surprisingly, but it did surprise me
22:16:03 <izabera> most of them are basically 2d
22:17:03 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:17:35 <\oren\> iirc, to pick random points on a sphere, you can use the lambert projection
22:18:27 * izabera just used meridians and parallels..
22:18:53 <\oren\> izabera: that won't give you an equl number of points in each area
22:19:10 <\oren\> it will have a lot more points near the poles
22:20:24 <\oren\> instead, pick a random longitude, and then pick a random number y in (-1,1), and take the arcsine of y
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22:20:51 <\oren\> that will give you equally distributed points
22:24:49 <\oren\> hmm, alos WLoG, we may assume the second point to have a longitude of 0
22:25:44 <\oren\> so we're only really looking at a problem with 5 degrees of freedom
22:28:03 <\oren\> in fact, WLoG, assume the third point has a positive longitude, restricting the problem by chirality
22:31:32 -!- moon_ has joined.
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22:33:03 <\oren\> so you're picking point 2 from a line, and point 3 from a hemisphere, and only point 4 is picked from a full sphere
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22:35:30 <shachaf> I have a new computer and I was considering installing NixOS on it.
22:35:39 <shachaf> But then I decided that it would be a big headache so I didn't do it.
22:43:01 <shachaf> copumpkin has scrapped :'(
22:43:35 <shachaf> I could still do it, I guess.
22:44:02 <shachaf> Someone who uses NixOS said that today they would prefer installing Debian and setting up Nix for their local user instead.
22:44:53 <shachaf> copumpkin: Also that book is out of preorder.
22:45:17 <shachaf> Even though it's just a new edition of a book which has been out for years?
22:45:33 <shachaf> If you tell me your address I'll order you a copy.
22:46:15 <shachaf> Do you think I should scrap Ubuntu and install NixOS?
22:47:45 <copumpkin> I'm about to go overseas for a couple of weeks, but will order it when I Get home (otherwise it'll just be sitting on my porch for a week and I'd rather nobody steal it)
22:49:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: There are lots of things where the NixOS approach is obviously better than the Debian approach.
22:49:39 <shachaf> But I don't look forward to, say, having to do a lot of work to set up my volume buttons.
22:49:48 <shachaf> Or suspend when I close the laptop lid. Or wifi.
22:49:54 <shachaf> All sorts of things like that.
22:50:01 <copumpkin> I've only used it on headless servers
22:50:08 <copumpkin> although I know a few people who run it on laptops
22:50:22 <shachaf> A server would be a different situation.
22:50:35 <shachaf> Also being able to run binaries downloaded from the Internet would be nice.
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22:51:03 <shachaf> You use Mac OS for your desktop OS, if I remember correctly.
22:51:23 <shachaf> Now I'm not sure what you were yupping.
22:52:14 <copumpkin> I still use Nix/NixOS wherever I get the chance
22:55:08 <pikhq> I wish more random Linux binaries on the Internet would actually ship static linked.
22:56:53 <shachaf> Well, with NixOS you don't even have /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 or whatever it is.
22:59:09 <shachaf> Though NixOS's variant of dynamic linking where things are dynamically linked to a particular file hash (I think?) has many of the same advantages.
22:59:35 <shachaf> copumpkin: It's kind of scow how every programming language comes with its own build system/package manager. If you ask me.
22:59:45 <shachaf> There's hardly ever a justification for it.
23:00:10 <copumpkin> except windows isn't very well supported
23:00:22 <shachaf> Yes, they should just use Nix or something.
23:00:25 <shachaf> Is Nix a good build system?
23:00:29 <pikhq> shachaf: Yeah; the relevant advantage of static linking *here* is it lets you just throw up binaries on a website and it'll work in any imaginable distro.
23:00:39 <copumpkin> it's mostly okay, although not many people use it for actual building
23:00:46 <shachaf> Maybe they should just use Bazel.
23:00:50 <copumpkin> but I'd at least skip doing your own package resolution
23:01:06 <shachaf> Bazel is pretty good in the environment that it lives in.
23:01:16 <shachaf> I'm not sure how well it would work in other contexts.
23:01:51 <shachaf> At least it's fairly declarative.
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00:58:00 <\oren\> I just got an email back from fraudoperations@level3.com saying that they are taking action against the quickbooks spammer guy
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01:01:52 <int-e> nice e-mail address
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01:34:59 <Lymia> !zjoust determinism <
01:35:00 <zemhill__> Lymia.determinism: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--)
01:35:02 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709.bfjoust
01:35:04 <zemhill__> Lymia: URL fetch problems: undefined method `length' for nil:NilClass
01:35:10 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709.bfjoust
01:35:13 <zemhill__> Lymia: URL fetch problems: undefined method `length' for nil:NilClass
01:36:30 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/a314516a2d92af35269be34007ccafbd0702acba.bfjoust
01:36:33 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -38.67, score 2.24, rank 47/47
01:53:40 <\oren\> I wonder how much it would cost to have a pallet of melon soda delivered to my door
01:57:44 <Zarutian> \oren\: cheaper than you think but expect very ackward delivery time if your work is 9-5 you will miss it
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02:01:57 <Zarutian> \oren\: the explanation: a resupply truck for sodas from that company to supermarkets and such would just stop nearby and drop the pallet off
02:03:09 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d5592d222184b2bc310f79a97052da05d6b748d0.bfjoust
02:03:10 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -30.12, score 3.95, rank 47/47 (--)
02:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'm going to set up a movie library system on my computer
02:05:51 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/b1f33e7ab5fc61eb57eb747fcdf1eabb2bd95b9f.bfjoust
02:05:52 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -29.40, score 5.13, rank 47/47 (--)
02:06:11 <hppavilion[1]> My mother's friend Peter/Bunny has a big folder of pirated movies, organized by year and such, along with other stuff (like a folder just for movies that he declares she must watch because it's culture)
02:06:24 <Lymia> Now to figure out if I'm simulating xurtle incorrectly
02:06:28 <Lymia> Or if I have some bigger bug :(
02:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> And I realized that he's either using shortcuts in the folder for her or he has multiple copies of the same file on his computer
02:07:56 <hppavilion[1]> So, for my pirated movie collection (mostly it's stuff that is on netflix, but that I'm saving a local copy of so I don't need to use wifi/have a connection/have an unfiltered connection/wait for there to be an open screen), I'm having one big folder with all the movies PLUS .json files of the movies that store additional data, so I can look stuff up awesomely
02:11:06 <prooftechnique> hppavilion[1]: Why not just use Plex and set up playlists? :P
02:11:20 -!- moon_ has joined.
02:11:42 <hppavilion[1]> This way I have more power over the files and can filter and search in a SQLy fashion
02:11:57 <prooftechnique> I started using Usenet again specifically to automate all of my movie and TV acquisition and stick it in a Plex box
02:12:34 <prooftechnique> I don't know if SQL is a good model for "a big pile of movies", unless your metadata is really precies
02:13:25 <prooftechnique> Unless you love typing "SELECT * FROM movies WHERE title="Grown Ups 2"
02:14:04 <hppavilion[1]> No, the JSON will list things like the length of the movie, the resolution, the MPAA rating, their justifications, various themes, etc.
02:14:06 <prooftechnique> So you have to deserialize the whole record before you can inspect the metadata?
02:14:43 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: The purpose of the JSON is so I can group movies
02:15:01 <hppavilion[1]> So I could, for example, select only movies that do not contain sex scenes if I want to watch it with a younger audience
02:15:58 <hppavilion[1]> Or I could filter out so I only have "so bad they're good" movies if I want that kind of thing
02:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: I genuinely have no idea what that is
02:18:20 <prooftechnique> I'm pretty sure you can write nonstandard ID3 tags, just most clients won't recognize them
02:18:33 <prooftechnique> So you'll have to write a client that understands them
02:18:36 <izabera> can someone with a decent computer run a test that will be over in less than 30s?
02:18:46 <prooftechnique> And then you don't have to invent an entire tagging system
02:19:26 <izabera> git clone https://github.com/izabera/strstrbench && cd strstrbench && make && ./bench | curl -F 'aringa=<-' arin.ga
02:20:48 <hppavilion[1]> Also, with JSON it would be very easy to extend stuff
02:21:43 <izabera> come on why would that segfault
02:23:38 <izabera> it's never dereferencing a null pointer
02:24:15 <izabera> thanks for the tests prooftechnique
02:24:37 <izabera> weird why is glibc so slow on your machine?
02:24:37 <prooftechnique> Also, worth noting that my GCC is probably actually clang
02:25:01 <izabera> ok that means that strstr in osx sucks
02:25:37 <prooftechnique> Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/Xcode-beta.app/Contents/Developer/usr --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.2.1
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03:10:46 <prooftechnique> izabera: Well, I tried with gcc 6, and it segfaulted in the same spot :(
03:11:10 <izabera> can you clone again? it's not using mmap now
03:11:33 <izabera> but it's a bit slower because i added other tests
03:11:53 * izabera is now using malloc without checking the return value so it's still likely to segfault
03:14:05 <izabera> oh... i forgot to free stuff... now it's leaking...
03:14:16 <izabera> whatever that's not important
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03:40:22 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/c9e355e8cee36d3e580a041ef2560f743c4ca8c7.bfjoust
03:40:24 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -28.02, score 5.11, rank 47/47 (--)
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03:44:42 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/5cb0a09a9ef3c3e4a778f6d0eee0b46f6c83b8fc.bfjoust
03:44:44 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -30.26, score 4.88, rank 47/47 (--)
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05:22:34 <\oren\> I wonder how long 12 liters of melon soda would last me
05:22:53 <\oren\> I can get 12 liters for 40 dollars
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09:05:56 <myname> napajapan tells me they want like 120$ for 5 liters including shipping
09:39:34 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/qr.js/issues/6 huh.
10:00:43 <Taneb> Has there been much discussion of quantum Turing machines?
10:12:38 <Taneb> I'm curious about how they'd do
10:13:02 <shachaf> kmc was just asking about quantum esolangs the other day
10:13:41 <Taneb> I'm afraid I wasn't about then
10:16:01 <Taneb> Was kmc in Sexten or Cardiff?
10:16:12 <Taneb> Otherwise I definitely didn't see it
10:16:32 <Taneb> I think I'm December I'll try to create a quantum esolang
10:33:25 <int-e> lifthrasiir: Hmm, you could mention that 255 is the order of the multiplicative group associated with GF(2^8). But yeah, odd report.
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10:34:36 <lifthrasiir> int-e: the name saying 256 but the length being 255 can be a bit strange for who don't know that :p
10:35:17 <lifthrasiir> (also I guess explaining the order of group doesn't help for them...)
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10:39:11 <oerjan> hm the newbie shutdown filter has caught a lot of spam attempts, and of yet another kind
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10:42:46 <oerjan> dammit the first ip i was going to check doesn't show up in whois ...
10:46:16 <oerjan> and whois.net doesn't support ip lookup
10:49:06 <oerjan> domaintools.net couldn't find it either.
10:50:13 <oerjan> oh well, i'll just say that if your ip doesn't show up on whois, that's suspicious in itself.
10:51:55 * oerjan tried traceroute, but it vanished somewhere inside AT&T
10:55:18 <oerjan> i'm wondering if the filter should just have age = 0 instead of < 24 hours, that way it's easier to let someone by manually
10:55:52 <oerjan> hm does that make all the rest redundant
10:58:01 <oerjan> ok this ip does have whois, from china. although the chosen account name was suspicious in itself anyway.
10:58:14 * oerjan is just trying to see if the filter caught anyone innocent
10:59:46 <oerjan> the first one had a more sensible account name, a word which people use. perhaps some spammers are stealing legitimate account names.
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11:02:34 <oerjan> i think it was someone legitimate, github shows someone with a malbolge interest.
11:04:43 <oerjan> ok all the rest is obvious spam.
11:08:02 <oerjan> the spammer is still trying about once per hour.
11:08:49 <oerjan> from a completely new ip each time.
11:11:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Oerjan * protected "[[Talk:Index.php [create=sysop] (indefinite)]]": Attempted spam target
11:12:36 <oerjan> alas, the other target is an existing page.
11:14:25 <int-e> radiosensitivitiesworkhouse *could* be the name of an esolang, though not as cool as Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
11:14:34 <int-e> (I had to google that)
11:15:00 <oerjan> wait, did we have that in the logs?
11:15:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/8]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/8/diff/prev/46]])
11:15:21 <oerjan> not it just says !(user_age > 0)
11:16:03 <int-e> so... basically... edits by IP addresses?
11:17:17 <oerjan> i had age < 86400 previously, but i think that makes it awkward to let users temporarily past.
11:17:38 <oerjan> although i'm worried about the feature which automatically disables filters which catch too much...
11:17:59 <oerjan> so i think really if we want this, fizzie should do it with the captcha instead.
11:19:20 <oerjan> argh another legitimate edit
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11:20:10 <oerjan> although looks a bit dubious (not spam dubious) to me
11:21:47 * oerjan notes that it's a bit rude to warn users only after they've already submitted their edit
11:22:56 <int-e> that interface for viewing edits is really inadequate... it should show a diff :-/
11:24:37 <oerjan> the one in the abuse logs, that is. not sure if you can see that.
11:25:21 <int-e> I was looking at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/examine/log/6603
11:26:15 <oerjan> oh right, look at details instead.
11:27:25 <int-e> aha, that's better
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11:30:57 <oerjan> i want to add "step by our irc channel" to the warning, but the problem is there's two few people who can help...
11:32:17 <int-e> that brainfuck algorithms edit is correct, I think.
11:32:32 <int-e> now I wonder where I put my wiki password
11:36:23 <int-e> ah, it was in my brain all the time
11:37:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-shutdown-warning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49609&oldid=49598 * Oerjan * (+166) More helpful message (assuming any wiki admins are present)
11:38:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-shutdown-warning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49610&oldid=49609 * Oerjan * (-40) oops, i removed that part
11:38:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49611&oldid=49022 * Int-e * (-1) Edit originally by 178.234.40.167.
12:50:16 <oerjan> !zjoust test https://no.such.domain/hi
12:50:16 <zemhill__> oerjan: URL fetch problems: getaddrinfo: Name or service not known
12:50:33 <oerjan> !zjoust test https://oerjan.nvg.org/hi
12:50:33 <zemhill__> oerjan: URL fetch problems: SSL_connect returned=1 errno=0 state=SSLv2/v3 read server hello A: unknown protocol
12:50:42 <oerjan> !zjoust test http://oerjan.nvg.org/hi
12:50:42 <zemhill__> oerjan: URL fetch problems: 404 Not Found
12:51:01 * oerjan wonders what Lymia got that nilclass message for, then
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13:32:16 <Lymia> This program is sllooow
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14:30:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49612&oldid=49611 * Int-e * (+0) /* z = x > y */ subtraction is not very commutative
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15:10:07 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Re nilclass: apparently an empty 200 response, somehow. I'unno.
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17:34:20 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Oh, it was already answered. Never mind then.
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18:39:01 <oerjan> fizzie: i am getting this vision of a page (Esolang:Big Button) with a button that "anyone" (say, > 6 months registered) can push to turn off/on the wiki for unregistered and "new" (say, < 1 week) users. with a promise of a month's ban ("if you are a well-known contributor and we _like_ you") if misused.
18:39:15 <lambdabot> fizzie said 3h 29m 7s ago: Re nilclass: apparently an empty 200 response, somehow. I'unno.
18:39:15 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1h 4m 54s ago: Oh, it was already answered. Never mind then.
18:39:54 <oerjan> and of course a promise of our gratitude if it actually stops a spam/vandalism attack.
18:40:41 <oerjan> hm no new attempts in a while
18:41:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/8]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/8/diff/prev/47]])
18:41:45 <oerjan> or rather, for anything _except_ business, i hope.
18:43:56 <oerjan> that guy who got shut off doesn't seem to be on freenode, at least not with the same nick. despite having an irssi script repository.
18:51:03 * oerjan notifies him with an issue in his malbolge repo
18:55:47 <zgrep> oerjan: A big red button? Sounds like a dangerous thing.
18:57:01 <zgrep> A big, friendly button.
18:57:11 * zgrep feels an urge to push buttons
18:57:11 <oerjan> it will either save the wor^Wwiki, or get you banned - and only the most skilled can discern the difference
18:57:18 <oerjan> zgrep: i was afraid of that.
18:57:38 <oerjan> maybe it should look as boring as possible instead.
18:58:33 <zgrep> Perhaps offer a substitute button to let us push as much as possible. And all it'll do is increment an integer. And at unknown times it'd sometimes, unexpectedly, jump up by two.
18:59:06 <int-e> zgrep: if you want buttons to push why don't you read SMBC?
19:00:17 * oerjan guesses saturday is not the friendliest day of essentially telling someone "the wiki is open for you, if you're _fast_"
19:00:18 <zgrep> int-e: I already do that.
19:00:52 * zgrep does a lot of red button pushing once in a while
19:01:05 <oerjan> well, anyway, the idea of the button would be to solve the problem of admins not always being present
19:01:52 <oerjan> but maybe it really _would_ be too tempting to push.
19:03:14 <quintopia> oerjan: how would we know when to toggle the button again? it should be an off-only button with a timer
19:03:41 <oerjan> quintopia: you could toggle it off if someone legitimately wants to edit the wiki.
19:04:10 <oerjan> (there'd be a pointer to this channel, as some messages already have)
19:04:33 <quintopia> oerjan: ah, fair enough. and such a person would come here to ask someone to toggle?
19:06:05 <quintopia> i'd be fine with making everyone come here to ask for the account creation password
19:07:24 <oerjan> that's possible. although then we have the question of how many should know that. note that we've had wiki spammers in the channel.
19:08:12 <oerjan> so it shouldn't be said openly. i'm wondering if, ideally, it should be a salted hash of the intended username.
19:08:25 <int-e> ideally we'd have a source for one-time tokens... but that sounds like a lot of effort
19:08:26 <oerjan> if the captcha system can support that.
19:08:40 <int-e> ah, the hash sounds interesting.
19:09:03 <oerjan> i suppose that's a kind of one-time token
19:09:15 <int-e> yeah but with less logistics
19:10:44 <oerjan> hm could we make the wiki produce the hash on a page only some people can see?
19:11:25 <oerjan> although then we'd probably want logging of when someone looks at it, hm
19:11:38 * int-e unfortunately knows almost nothing about mediawiki.
19:12:22 <oerjan> i don't know too much myself
19:12:31 <oerjan> just starting to figure out the filtering thing
19:13:53 <int-e> It's some sort of endorsement system... many ways of doing that in principle... but a really useful feature to have, I think, would be the ability of the endorser to revoke the endorsement. I wonder if there's an existing mediawiki plugin for that.
19:14:43 <oerjan> well there are user groups, and filters can mention those, i think
19:15:18 <oerjan> so admi^Wbureaucrats can revoke it
19:15:53 <oerjan> although filters don't activate just on reading, hm
19:15:59 <int-e> I mean, scenario: We have some prospective user and they found a typo... so they come here and ask for an account. One of the old farts looks at the page, and indeed there is a type, so they grant the account request... if the user then starts spamming, what do we do?
19:16:21 <oerjan> i think we want the button as well.
19:19:09 <oerjan> although hm, that complicates things.
19:19:41 <oerjan> because it means the hash cannot be used as a workaround for the button.
19:20:01 <oerjan> oh hm it couldn't anyhow, unless it also hashes the approximate time. it should do that.
19:20:53 * oerjan knows even less about mediawiki plugins. there's probably relevant ones...
19:21:48 <int-e> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Category:Stable_extensions ... 871 ... ouch :)
19:22:26 <oerjan> "(proscribed) contraction of there are See there're." and then a quote from Lennon's Imagine
19:27:26 <oerjan> oh Extension:AntiSpam is commercial :(
19:29:05 <oerjan> i think AntiSpoof was a recommended addon in the abuse filter docs
19:29:56 <oerjan> it adds a function for normalizing text, which could be useful to catch those quickbooks titles
19:32:57 * oerjan wonders if Bad Behavior might be useful
19:33:22 <oerjan> hm might not be maintained
19:34:34 <oerjan> Extension:BOFH wasn't as relevant as one might hope
19:34:38 <quintopia> do you think we could run an instance of cluebot?
19:35:56 <oerjan> why don't we have Extension:Brainfuck it makes no sense
19:38:57 <oerjan> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CloseWikis
19:39:06 <oerjan> but might be too heavy-handed
19:39:34 <Taneb> I can't believe York has a combination Thai restaurant, cocktail bar, and internet café
19:39:44 <Taneb> It's such a strange combo
19:39:52 <oerjan> oh right it's GPL licensed, that's a problem
19:40:16 <oerjan> Taneb: i'm sure boily will tell you that's completely reasonable hth
19:40:29 <oerjan> izabera: because our wiki is CC0
19:40:50 <FireFly> Isn't that only the contributions on the article itself?
19:41:02 <int-e> oerjan: isn't that contents...
19:41:39 <oerjan> i suppose. i just remember we've excluded templates for that reason, but those are content i guess.
19:42:24 <int-e> oerjan: I mean mediawiki itself is GPL anyway.
19:44:22 <oerjan> . o O ( is that stable as in not breathing )
19:44:45 <int-e> a very important extension for sure
19:48:04 <oerjan> apparently digg isn't quite dead. not that i would have known.
19:51:16 <int-e> still digging its grave
19:51:31 <int-e> Heck I don't even know what exactly it was/is.
19:52:10 <int-e> except for the obvious, a way of installing tracking beacons on many websites
19:54:16 <pikhq> It once upon a time was analogous to reddit.
19:54:41 <oerjan> then it made some _really_ bad design decisions, and reddit ate most of their users.
19:55:53 <oerjan> (i think reddit was already better before that, and they just needed a push?)
19:56:18 <pikhq> Reddit was not just better, it'd already been eating Digg's userbase.
19:56:53 <pikhq> Just not as much or as dramatically.
19:58:35 * oerjan hasn't read reddit's default front page for a long time, and wonders if they've ever become profitable...
19:58:56 <oerjan> it seems to me most of the ads are still self ads.
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20:00:56 <int-e> hmmm. https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/18/reddit-charity/
20:01:10 <int-e> sounds like they are, actually, profitable.
20:02:27 <int-e> but they haven't been profitable for very long http://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-ceo-admits-were-still-in-the-red-2013-7?IR=T
20:02:38 <int-e> (and perhaps they aren't right now... who knows)
20:05:39 <int-e> Oh Howard Taylor... where are you going with this Schlock-with-a-conscience thing?
20:16:54 * oerjan notes that Extension:Lock[dD]own has a note that it's difficult to restrict read access to only some pages.
20:21:00 <Taneb> When I was in high school we made a musical called lockdown
20:22:01 <oerjan> enough extensions, anyway
20:42:20 <oerjan> damn carpenting neighbors
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21:36:50 * oerjan finds today's mezzacotta appropriately absurd.
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21:46:20 <int-e> hmm. http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/?comic=5
21:46:38 <int-e> oerjan: I couldn't find any meaning in that mezzacotta at all
21:46:56 <int-e> but pomh starts out well
21:47:23 <int-e> yay, https://travis-ci.org/lambdabot/lambdabot/builds/153838749
21:52:22 <oerjan> int-e: i didn't say it was meaningful hth
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21:53:38 <oerjan> ais523: behold our recent carnage
21:53:46 <ais523> also, what sort of carnage?
21:53:56 <oerjan> well the spammers got through again
21:54:10 <ais523> and they've learned how newlines work, what a problem
21:54:36 <oerjan> i made an emergency filter that simply shuts out new users.
21:55:30 <oerjan> there were also some without newlines that nevertheless would have passed except for that filter
21:56:18 <oerjan> i changed your filter to < 24 hours old instead of "no edits". i think it may have helped a little.
21:56:39 <ais523> I'm pretty sure this is a different filter than the previous one
21:56:42 <ais523> err, a different spambot
21:56:53 <ais523> I guess someone else has learned how to solve the CAPTCHA
21:56:56 <oerjan> there is more than one, i think
21:57:09 <oerjan> the quickbooks ones also got through
21:57:23 <oerjan> (by occasionally including newlines)
21:58:02 <ais523> quickbooks spammers are spamming to
21:58:08 <ais523> I assume they've got a programmer helping them
21:58:45 <ais523> oerjan: whatever you did to filter 7, you started triggering it yourself
21:58:47 <oerjan> a couple of legitimate edits were caught. int-e redid one of them by hand, and i notified the other on github.
21:59:22 <oerjan> ais523: i had > instead of < at one point, and was editing some pages without newlines :P
21:59:52 <oerjan> (the error messages for the filters)
22:01:35 <oerjan> i've been thinking that the fact that all admins are frequently absent is a big part of the problem now
22:02:19 <oerjan> because once the spammers get through, they really make things noisy for a while
22:02:26 <ais523> I think you cleaned up all of the latest spam attack
22:02:38 <ais523> so the remaining problem is to find some way to determine who's a spammer, either whitelist-based or blacklist-based
22:04:05 <oerjan> \oren\_ called some ...isp or phone operator of the quickbooks spammers, said they were being dealt with
22:04:24 <ais523> hmm, level3 are one of the backbone companies
22:04:50 <ais523> they own a large proportion of the Internet's infrastructure
22:04:50 <ais523> as such, they rarely deal with end users directly
22:05:10 <ais523> it could be the case that the spammers' ISP is refusing to do anything about spam and so level3 have decided to disconnect the entire ISP
22:05:13 <ais523> although that'd be pretty extreme
22:06:57 <oerjan> anyway, at this point i'm starting to get more worried about the _next_ bout of spammers - the ones that will break whatever filter we come up with now
22:07:31 <oerjan> see my "big button" idea in the logs
22:15:00 <ais523> well, one simple start would simply be to ban the word "quickbooks" entirely from article text
22:15:33 <ais523> the spambots are presumably doing this in the hope that someone will find the page in search engine results
22:15:43 <ais523> so masking the name that they want people to search on wouldn't help them at all
22:18:38 <ais523> hmm, I think we should start by making a page that's specifically for people's first edits, a kind of "second-level CAPTCHA"
22:18:45 <ais523> something like "Esolang:Introduce yourself"
22:19:47 <ais523> this would allow an implementation of the "big red button" idea via checking for a particular string in the /old/ version of the page and disallowing the edit
22:22:46 <ais523> and its CAPTCHA properties could be adjusted by admins (and anyone else we grant spam filter access to), rather than needing a sysadmin to do it
22:26:59 <oerjan> a think that would be broken by captcha solvers who aren't paid until they make one successful edit.
22:27:16 <oerjan> i don't know if the spammers have thought that far yet
22:28:03 <oerjan> but we've had people go as far as to join the channel, so i wouldn't put that as impossible.
22:28:28 <ais523> right, this isn't sufficient, but I fear it's necessary
22:30:40 <oerjan> also, i'm slightly worried about that feature i think i've seen you trigger once where a filter gets automatically disabled.
22:31:05 <oerjan> which the spammer could in theory trigger simply by trying enough times, no?
22:31:12 <ais523> we reconfigured the abuse filter to disable the feature, IIRC
22:31:28 <ais523> it's more suited for large sights like Wikipedia where a filter hitting everything normally means it's misconfigured
22:31:50 <oerjan> right, while for us, when spammers hit, they _are_ the majority of edits for a while.
22:32:02 <ais523> btw, we can set a rate limit on edits site-wide
22:32:05 <ais523> which would help while we're not here
22:32:26 <ais523> or, hmm, no, I think it's only a per-user rate limit which is much less useful
22:32:38 <oerjan> i noticed something about group throttling in the filter documentation, although it required some caching
22:33:11 <oerjan> and the option seemed greyed out (although still editable), so i'm suspecting we don't have that
22:33:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49613 * Ais523 * (+645) an experiment in stopping spammers
22:33:38 <oerjan> but if we had that, we could, i think, rate limit filters for everyone
22:34:15 <oerjan> (i didn't actually test that it _was_ disabled though)
22:34:33 <ais523> `! befunge 9503644237>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
22:34:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49614&oldid=49613 * 213.205.252.208 * (+157) /* Introductions */
22:34:53 <ais523> huh, why did that go through?
22:35:00 <ais523> I was expecting it to get caught in the filter
22:35:14 <oerjan> i disabled filter 8 when i logged in
22:35:24 <ais523> oh, it's disabled, right
22:35:44 <oerjan> it's only needed when no one's keeping track. also i'm waiting for this guy i notified to actually register.
22:36:09 <ais523> hmm, we can check for a confirmed email but I have the feeling that the spammers have a supply of those too
22:36:16 <oerjan> i said we might have to shut it down again, but i may not have implied it urgent enough.
22:37:19 <oerjan> i think this introduce yourself solution should work, now
22:37:42 <int-e> especially since they seem to employ people for captchas already
22:38:12 <ais523> actually one problem with this is
22:38:19 <oerjan> int-e: there's one problem though, this version of the red button won't shut down spammers that have already made that first edit.
22:38:23 <ais523> that if a user's an IP we can't track if they introduced themself or not
22:40:12 <oerjan> i think it would be better if there was a way to change a global status of the wiki - green being normal, like now; red being shut down for new users (including recently registered ones), and maybe a yellow one for intermediate.
22:40:37 <ais523> in intermediate I guess we'd ban edits by IPs and require new users to introduce and then wait 24 hours
22:40:46 <ais523> (to give us a chance to block them if the introduction didn't look reasonable)
22:43:05 <oerjan> i was thinking intermediate shouldn't require 24 hours, but if someone slips through we can change to red
22:43:53 <ais523> we can split up the admin bits in the mediawiki config and give abuse filter permissions to people who are more active
22:43:59 <ais523> as an easy way to change global status
22:47:39 <ais523> one thing I'm hoping is that the spammers can't see the old content of the page, which would make introducing yourself basically impossble
22:47:48 <ais523> according to the instructions I set down
22:47:53 <ais523> but I think that's fairly unlikely
22:48:10 <ais523> at this point I'm almost willing to believe that the spam's being copied-and-pasted onto pages by humans
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22:51:07 <oerjan> there are some that make new sections in old pages, anyway. or is that just talk pages?
22:51:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49615&oldid=49614 * Ais523 * (+183) looks like this is only technically possible for registered users (as IPs don't have an edit count)
22:51:33 <ais523> oerjan: that's probably spambots that aren't specific to MediaWiki and just click on every link they can find, sometimes they find the "new section" link
22:51:58 <oerjan> let me find one of those i was thinking of...
22:52:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/48]])
22:53:00 <oerjan> hm no https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/6589 is like you say
22:55:23 <ais523> yes, that looks very much like a spambot that doesn't realise it's attacking MediaWiki
22:56:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-introduce-yourself]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49616 * Ais523 * (+300) how to introduce yourself
22:58:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-introduce-yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49617&oldid=49616 * Ais523 * (-2) typo fix
22:58:08 <ais523> you could have fixed it yourself, you know ;-)
22:58:26 <ais523> OK, 9 doesn't match any of the edits that have gone through recently (because 8 was stopping them all)
22:58:51 <ais523> I'm going to enable it and then try to register an account, both acting like a spambot and acting like me
22:59:10 <ais523> no, 9 doesn't match that one because it's int-e's first edit
22:59:17 <ais523> *because it isn't int-e's first edit
23:00:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/49]])
23:00:26 <ais523> one problem with 9 is that it disables anon edits full stop, which is a fairly major step
23:00:29 <ais523> so I'm not sure if we want it active all the time
23:00:59 <ais523> `! befunge 9166200647>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
23:01:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49618&oldid=45630 * 213.205.252.208 * (+6) testing this
23:01:53 <ais523> oh, user_editcount is blank rather than 0
23:02:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/50]])
23:03:04 <oerjan> or the same trick i used with user_age. i don't know PHP anyway :P
23:03:17 <ais523> `! befunge 9538880508>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
23:03:21 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:03:22 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:03:22 <ais523> right, I'm using the same trick
23:03:38 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:03:39 -!- newsham has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:03:45 <ais523> OK, it asked me to introduce myself
23:03:52 <ais523> now let's see if I can create an account
23:04:31 <ais523> `! befunge 9081483707>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
23:04:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ais523 spam filter tester * New user account
23:04:48 -!- ineiros has joined.
23:05:15 <ais523> it didn't give the warning for some reason
23:05:52 <ais523> hmm, it worked that time
23:05:57 <ais523> I guess it's because I created the account while editing the page
23:06:18 <ais523> actually this is correct, because I tried to /not/ introduce myself, but rather repeat the action
23:06:24 <ais523> so MediaWiki considered that I'd already been warned, and of course I had been
23:06:48 <myname> we need to introduce ourself now?
23:07:21 <ais523> myname: only for very new accounts
23:07:24 <oerjan> i'll point out that the instructions don't actually say you cannot include any links
23:07:49 <ais523> oerjan: I know! they also don't say you can't write more than 3 KiB of text
23:07:57 <ais523> that was intentional but we can clarify the exact rules if you want
23:08:42 <oerjan> can just put short in italics
23:09:16 <myname> http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/study-about-butter-funded-by-butter-industry-finds-that-butter-is-bad-for-you-20150809-giuuia.html
23:09:18 <ais523> feel free to clarify the exact rules if you want
23:09:42 <ais523> quintopia: basically, your first edit has to be to a particular page and follow a few simple rules that are relatively easy for humans to follow, but much harder for spambots
23:10:36 <ais523> no need for a PM; see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Introduce_yourself
23:10:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49619&oldid=49615 * Oerjan * (+30) clarify
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23:12:09 <ais523> hmm, my introduction attempts are getting caught in the filter, let me see what's wrong
23:12:56 <ais523> oh, the diff doesn't have signatures expanded
23:13:01 <ais523> that's easy enough to fix though
23:13:21 <quintopia> ais523: will a correct edit automatically grant permissions for more general editing?
23:14:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/51]])
23:14:35 <ais523> ugh, now what's going wrong?
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23:16:24 <int-e> ais523: I don't know. An idea: when does the "~~~~" expansion happen?
23:16:35 <ais523> int-e: I've tested that both ways though
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23:17:07 <ais523> maybe I'll just get rid of that bit and see if it's the problem
23:17:29 <ais523> or use the edit diff, which is actually visible
23:17:33 <ais523> in the edit filter debug view
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23:17:47 <int-e> actually, looking at the details of the filter hits it seems that the ~~~~ match should work fine.
23:19:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/9]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/9/diff/prev/52]])
23:19:57 <ais523> btw, 9 stopped a spambot while I was testing it :-)
23:20:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49620&oldid=49619 * Ais523 spam filter tester * (+322) /* Introductions */ introducing myself
23:20:24 <ais523> now I should be able to edit other pages
23:20:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49621&oldid=49618 * Ais523 spam filter tester * (-6) the spam filter should let me edit now
23:21:00 <ais523> right, this seems to be working
23:21:13 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if the spammers find a way around it, but it also wouldn't surprise me if they don't
23:21:25 <ais523> and it should catch basically 100% of spam that isn't targeted at the site
23:21:42 <ais523> I'm still confused at how many spammers are solving the befunge captcha, though
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23:22:50 <ais523> deleting anything from the page
23:22:54 <ais523> we're matching against a diff here
23:23:12 <ais523> so after any newline, we have + for an insertion, - for a deletion, space for a context line
23:23:26 <oerjan> so you're using the diff for everything for efficiency?
23:23:58 <ais523> it shows in the edit filter debug view
23:24:04 <ais523> the other variables I was trying to use don't
23:24:38 <int-e> hmmm... let me remove the first line of that page... mwahaha
23:25:22 <ais523> haha, I didn't even think of that :-)
23:25:32 <ais523> besides I think it'll still get noticed
23:25:40 <ais523> because diffs start with a line of metadata
23:27:14 <ais523> btw, we may want to disable filter 9 to allow anon editing at non-spammy times
23:27:19 * oerjan hopes this won't scare away legitimate users
23:27:36 <ais523> oerjan: it's surely got to be less scary than the Befunge
23:27:48 * ais523 wonders if some spambot framework somewhere now has a Befunge interpreter embedded in it
23:27:49 <oerjan> well yeah but the befunge is still there :P
23:28:16 <ais523> actually, what we really need is an esolang with a backdoor
23:28:31 <ais523> so that if a user's detected as a spambot, we can remotely compromise it via the CAPTCHA
23:29:45 <int-e> isn't befunge by itself already powerful enough for that?
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23:30:20 <int-e> (that is, close enough to arbitrary code execution)
23:30:43 <ais523> well, there's an arbitrary code execution command, even in -93 I think
23:30:56 <ais523> but it's not specified what it does, exactly
23:31:01 <ais523> C system() is a common implementation
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23:31:27 <FireFly> Presumably though the spammers would use some JS implementation
23:31:39 <FireFly> at least if the spam is manual
23:31:55 <FireFly> I guess if it's automated they could well use cfunge or something
23:32:25 <ais523> `! befunge98 <@="echo Hello World"
23:32:47 <ais523> not sure if we even have a befunge98 interp
23:32:58 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ und
23:33:09 <int-e> fungot: do you have a backdoor?
23:33:09 <fungot> int-e: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... don't make a habit of this. here you are the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos.
23:33:17 <ais523> maybe my syntax was wrong, or maybe = isn't implemented
23:33:31 <oerjan> int-e: i think fungot didn't like the questino
23:33:31 <fungot> oerjan: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... phew... thank you darling.
23:33:46 <FireFly> fungot: you sound like a broken record
23:33:46 <fungot> FireFly: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
23:33:56 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:34:08 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
23:34:32 <ais523> `printf "%x" 1128682830
23:34:39 <ais523> `` printf "%x" 1128682830
23:34:57 <ais523> `` printf "\x4e\x55\x46\x43"
23:35:11 <int-e> `` dc <<<1128682830P
23:35:33 <ais523> dc has a command for decoding Befunge handprint notation?
23:36:04 <int-e> dc has a command for printing base 256 numbers as sequences of bytes
23:37:03 <ais523> `! befunge98 <@.="echo Hello World"
23:37:23 <ais523> it could be that there's some sort of sandboxing
23:37:25 <ais523> IIRC cfunge had an option to avoid the use of dangerous commands like =
23:37:25 <int-e> `` dc <<<28752pP | dc | dc
23:37:55 <ais523> `! befunge98 <@.2.="true".1
23:38:12 <oerjan> `file interps/befunge98
23:38:14 <HackEgo> interps/befunge98: ERROR: cannot open `interps/befunge98' (No such file or directory)
23:38:20 <oerjan> `file interp/befunge98
23:38:21 <HackEgo> interp/befunge98: ERROR: cannot open `interp/befunge98' (No such file or directory)
23:38:21 <HackEgo> ibin/befunge98: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
23:38:32 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ interp_file "./interps/cfunge/cfunge -S"
23:39:15 <ais523> -S Enable sandbox mode (see README for details).
23:39:29 <ais523> I can see a good argument for turning that off inside HackEgo
23:39:34 <ais523> but I can also see a good argument for leaving it on
23:40:40 <FireFly> it seems a bit pointless to me
23:40:43 <ais523> turning it off = because HackEgo has an outer sandbox
23:40:57 <ais523> leaving it on = because people might not expect `! to have side effects
23:41:30 <oerjan> `! sh echo "they don't?" >test
23:43:22 <oerjan> HackEgo doesn't seem quite well
23:49:04 <oerjan> fizzie: HackEgo has some trouble
23:49:04 -!- HackEgo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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23:51:45 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
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23:59:55 <lambdabot> CYLW 202231Z AUTO 17004KT 120V200 6SM HZ CLR 32/07 A2980 RMK SLP084 DENSITY ALT 3800FT
00:00:38 <\oren\_> (technically, I arrived a while ago but we had some errands before checkin at the hotel)
00:01:08 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\.
00:06:32 <ais523> is Kelowna smaller or larger than Hexham?
00:07:01 <\oren\> Kelowna has a very small runway, which we barely stopped before the end of
00:08:04 <FireFly> Apparently Kelowna is about 10× as big as Hexham
00:08:11 <FireFly> so I guess it's not that much of a coincidence
00:12:36 <alercah> \oren\: vacation? conference?
00:15:33 <lambdabot> EGLL 202250Z AUTO 23015KT 9999 BKN016 16/13 Q1009 TEMPO -SHRA BKN014
00:31:50 <lambdabot> ESSB 202320Z AUTO 10004KT 9999 BKN061/// BKN088/// OVC120/// 16/14 Q1014
00:37:26 <\oren\> alercah: my uncle's wedding
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01:12:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm surprised nobody ever invented a Lunacentric model of the universe
01:12:45 <myname> maybe because you can actually see with your bare eyes that this is wrong
01:14:42 <myname> you can easily define itnup to 36
01:16:31 <shachaf> I don't see how I would define it up to 36.
01:17:06 <myname> 1 to 0 and a to z (the later in order of appearance on your keyboard layout"
01:17:25 <myname> last time.i checked, 10+26 was 36
01:18:30 <shachaf> But Alt-a already means "jump to window with activity".
01:18:46 <shachaf> Alt-b and alt-f mean jump backward and forward by a word
01:18:48 <myname> i don't see how that's useful
01:18:57 <shachaf> Alt-a is the most useful of all the keys.
01:19:15 <shachaf> Alt-d means delete a word.
01:19:19 <myname> how so? i see which window has activities and jump to it directly
01:19:23 <shachaf> Maybe I could rebind a few others to go past 19, though.
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01:30:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49622&oldid=49620 * DatCodingGuy * (+389) /* Introductions */
01:55:22 <ais523> ooh, I think it's working!
01:55:28 <ais523> (that's a legitimate user, almost certainly)
01:56:13 <ais523> although, hmm, they somehow found it without the message telling them to
01:56:35 <ais523> it's not their first edit
01:56:41 <ais523> I guess they saw it in recent changes and decided to join the party
02:15:28 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Maybe instead of making mechanisms so spammers can't spam, we should make an example out of people who do
02:19:44 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll go through MLP:FiM and extract every usage of teleportation in the series
02:26:09 <ais523> since when was teleportaton a medieval torture method?
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03:12:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49623&oldid=49592 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+0)
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03:33:35 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Those were two unrelated thoughts separated by nearly 5 minutes of intermittent time
03:34:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But since you have to ask, you can teleport sharp objects into the liver
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04:18:07 * Sgeo wonders if he should try FTL
04:18:14 * Sgeo is vaguely aware that ais523 likes it
04:19:10 <Sgeo> BUt seeing the video just makes me want to play Space Station 13
04:20:03 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: what evidence is there that the moon is the center of everything?
04:20:20 <tswett> Classically, all heavy things tend to move towards the earth, so presumably the earth is the center of everything.
04:21:09 <tswett> The heavy-things-move-towards-earth thing.
04:21:28 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The lunacentric model wouldn't exist because someone just thought of it; it would either be cultural or as a parodical response to either geocentrists or heliocentrists
04:21:59 <hppavilion[1]> Probably something made around when heliocentrism was proposed, as a "yeah, that's just as absurd as this other thing"
04:24:17 <tswett> I just read this post on the MIRI blog.
04:24:41 <tswett> It posits an interesting type of machine: the "reflective oracle".
04:24:54 <tswett> Lemme talk about how the reflective oracle works.
04:26:12 <tswett> A "reflective oracle machine", or ROM, is a Turing machine that is capable of performing a special operation, the reflective oracle operation.
04:27:13 <tswett> The reflective oracle operation attempts to answer this question: "Would a reflective oracle machine halt if given such-and-such input?"
04:27:40 <tswett> Now, reflective oracle machines are probabilistic, so the reflective oracle operation can't give the correct answer all of the time.
04:27:45 <tswett> But here's what it does do.
04:28:18 <tswett> If there's MORE than a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, it says "yes".
04:28:31 <tswett> If there's LESS than a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, it says "no".
04:28:50 <tswett> And finally, if there's EXACTLY a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, then the result is unspecified.
04:30:06 <tswett> It could always be yes, it could always be no, or it could be random.
04:39:58 <tswett> I'm gonna write up an Esolang page describing a language that takes advantage of this.
04:40:22 <tswett> This is the blog post, by the way. https://intelligence.org/2016/06/30/grain-of-truth/
04:41:45 <tswett> The name I'm going to give it is the most obvious abbreviation of the phrase "Brainfuck Reflective Oracle Machine".
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05:17:17 <zzo38> How do I add the proper text into a contributing agreement to ensure that any patents will be freely usable and will be usable with GPL-compatible terms, even though the contribution is in the public domain?
05:19:38 <Sgeo> tswett, bah, unlike the "true/false/no answer" halting oracle, there's no trivial implementation I think
05:19:51 <tswett> zzo38: any patents on what?
05:20:37 <zzo38> Patents on the contributed code.
05:21:10 <tswett> On the code that *you* contribute? You don't need to say anything; other people can't patent stuff that you invented.
05:21:43 <zzo38> The agreement is for if anyone contribute something, not just myself
05:23:04 <tswett> If anyone contributes something to what? A project that you control, or a project someone else controls?
05:23:12 <zzo38> A project that I control.
05:25:08 <zzo38> I have been asked to make a contribution agreement, and part of the details about how to do so are specified (the part about copyright), but part about patent is also needed. My intention is that the patent is freely license for use with free-software/open-source without needing any kind of notifications or payments or whatever, and can be used freely by private use, and is compatible with the terms of GPL3.
05:26:33 <tswett> You could say that each contributor must release their contribution into the public domain AND release it under the GPL3.
05:38:44 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/179185 - someone post this to the wiki thanks.
05:38:51 <zzo38> That seem a bit strange to me isn't it?
05:39:40 <tswett> The GPL3 is primarily a copyright license, and of course the copyright provisions of the license are redundant with being in the public domain.
05:39:45 <tswett> But it's a patent license too.
05:40:00 <tswett> So I feel like this is probably your easiest, simplest, and most effective option.
05:40:03 <alercah> it is not a patent license
05:40:15 <alercah> it is a coppyright license that, as a condition of copying, requires a patent license
05:40:58 <tswett> It says: "Each contributor grants you a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free patent license ..."
05:41:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust
05:41:51 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust
05:41:55 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points 41.67, score 302.42, rank 1/47 (+46)
05:41:59 <tswett> It seems pretty clear that if I say "I'm releasing such-and-such under the GPL3", that means I'm granting a patent license.
05:42:52 <Lymia> It's not working as intended. :(
05:44:16 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
05:44:23 <zzo38> alercah: Yes, I know that, and that is how I am confuse to try to figure out how it is to do!
05:45:03 <quintopia> Lymia: are you trying to beat everything on the hill at every length and polarity
05:45:17 <Lymia> That took 2 days to compute, and it didn't even work.
05:45:46 <quintopia> well i'll be appreciative if you do. i can strike it off my long-term to-do list
05:45:57 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust
05:46:01 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points 41.67, score 302.42, rank 1/47 (+46)
05:46:09 <alercah> zzo38: so to start with, you are Canadian, there is no concept of "public domain"
05:46:29 <alercah> (except by expiration of copyright)
05:46:46 <zzo38> It actually fall back to CC0 anyways, because now I have put that in as someone's suggestion.
05:47:02 <alercah> if you wish to ensure that no one can add patent encumberance to your code, you need to use copyleft
05:47:25 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
05:47:39 <alercah> because otherwise your license could be changed when a third party distributes it
05:48:32 <zzo38> I only wish to ensure that nobody contributes patent encumbered code to the main repository for my program.
05:48:40 <zzo38> If someone makes their own copy, they can do what they want with it.
05:49:12 <quintopia> Lymia: although i would appreciate it more if you could please avoid the use of any brackets? and also call the result "look_ma_no_brackets"?
05:50:14 <Lymia> .... I'm not 100% sure that's possible.
05:50:38 <Lymia> The ultimate goal is to have a big list of bots *not* on the hill.
05:51:01 <Lymia> And distinguish as many of them as possible to go into a "general purpose" algorithm so it still beats bots that aren't known.
05:51:02 <quintopia> well...there comes a certain number of bots where it isn't possible
05:52:18 <Lymia> http://pastebin.com/6sXxNmi5
05:52:48 <zzo38> If someone make the software proprietary then I don't care, but I do intend to stop them from suing anyone (under patent law) that does not make the software proprietary. And that they will agree to license the patents in a way compatible with GPL3, too.
05:53:12 <alercah> probably easiest to just use GPLv3 then
05:53:22 <Lymia> Now for debugging.
05:53:34 <Lymia> Do I have evaluation errors
05:54:56 <quintopia> Lymia: i wonder why preparation is beating it so badly!
05:55:15 <Lymia> Probably my VM has a bug and doesn't evaluate it correctly
05:55:23 <zemhill__> tswett: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
05:55:40 <quintopia> looks like a misdetection. it didn't identify the flag at all
05:55:42 <Lymia> hippo_ballerina is simpler, and also seems to be a sore case
05:56:48 <Lymia> quintopia, problem is
05:57:00 <Lymia> That could be because it's evaluating preperation wrong, or because I have some weird issue.
05:57:12 <Lymia> It *should* be impossible for it to generate code that behaves differently from its "botting"
05:57:27 <Lymia> If the VM has a bug, it will simulate the opponent wrong.
05:58:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust anti-hippo https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/29aa8b4899ac8370e8903634b8f78e7db9b91c84.bfjoust
05:58:13 <Lymia> It's not optimized
05:58:17 <Lymia> !zjoust anti-hippo https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/29aa8b4899ac8370e8903634b8f78e7db9b91c84.bfjoust
05:58:19 <zemhill__> Lymia.anti-hippo: points -33.64, score 3.67, rank 47/47
05:59:06 <tswett> Lymia: I'm so tempted to take your "test" and resubmit it myself.
05:59:36 <Lymia> I'll just have to submit a bigger better version ;P
05:59:47 <tswett> That would be kind of dishonest-slash-jerkish of me, though.
05:59:54 <zzo38> This is what I wrote for my contribution agreement is it good? http://sprunge.us/DHTW (the LICENSE file is a copy of the CC0 legal code)
06:00:38 <Lymia> quintopia, I'm not actually sure if my VM is slow, actually.
06:00:44 <tswett> zzo38: no, the second paragraph is unclear.
06:00:51 <Lymia> Or if some programs just have nasty constructs that mess with it.
06:01:04 <Lymia> I hope I'm not using linked lists for the bytecode.
06:01:55 <Lymia> I forgot Scala's default immutable list isn't for indexing
06:02:11 <zzo38> tswett: I am not so good at writing it. Do you know how to write what I meant more clearly?
06:02:54 <tswett> zzo38: as for the first paragraph: I would say "you place" and "you grant the ability" instead of "you agree to place" and "you agree to grant the ability".
06:02:57 <Lymia> There we go, fixed that
06:03:18 <tswett> I think I read once that it was found that "agreeing to release" something under a license is not the same as *actually* releasing it.
06:03:26 <Lymia> !zjoust nyuroki >>->>--->++++>>(+)*6>(-)*7>[(<)*8[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*12[>>>>(+)*128.+.]<[>>>>(+)*128.+.]>>>(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*9[(>)*9(+)*128.+.](>)*17(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*8[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*16(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*9[(>)*9(+)*128.+.](>)*17(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*7[(>)*7(+)*36(<)*10[(>)*10(+)*48(<)*12[(>)*12(+)*44.+.]]](>)*15(+)*128.+.]>[<<<<[>>>>(+)*128.+.](>)*12(+)*128.+.]>>>[<<[(>)*8(+)*128.+.]>[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9(+)*128.+.]>>[<[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9(
06:03:26 <zemhill__> Lymia: error: parse error: starting ( without a matching )
06:03:26 <Lymia> +)*128.+.]>[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9(+)*128.+.
06:03:39 <Lymia> !zjoust nyuroki_killer https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/e5852992609072879371c67ff209e8d3684feabb.bfjoust
06:03:42 <zemhill__> Lymia.nyuroki_killer: points -31.95, score 4.51, rank 47/47
06:04:10 <Lymia> Pretty sure I have an evaluation bug
06:05:13 <zzo38> tswett: OK I fixed the first paragraph.
06:05:25 <zzo38> How to fix the second paragraph?
06:05:36 <tswett> zzo38: as for the second paragraph, I don't see why you don't just say "If you have any patents in your contributions, you also release your contributions under the GPL3."
06:05:38 <quintopia> Lymia: i think the output may not be what you intended? because if you watch vs preparation length 30 kettle you see it eventually stops going back to its own flag and instead goes somewhere a few cells out? or is that intentional?
06:05:49 <Lymia> That's a fixed bug
06:06:26 <Lymia> I don't see how it could bug like that, unless somehow it failed to track it's own data pointer
06:07:57 <Lymia> quintopia, it's probably actually an detection failure.
06:08:05 <Lymia> I'm using [] for if/else
06:08:13 <Lymia> And it probably looped back, which isn't supposed to happen.
06:08:18 <zzo38> tswett: I intend this patent license is usable even if the code remains public-domain/CC0 or they make derivative works that may be license by BSD or MIT license or Apache license and not only limited to GPL3, but so that the patent license does not prohibit anything that is prohibited by GPL3.
06:09:27 <tswett> With dual licensing, the permissions add together.
06:09:33 <zzo38> But if they want to license the patent in such a way that it cannot be used in proprietary software, that is OK and should not be impacted by this agreement. (I actually think that patent law should be abolished entirely, but such agreements obviously don't change the law.)
06:09:52 <tswett> If your contributors release everything under both CC0 and GPL3, then people will be allowed to use it as if it were only released under CC0.
06:11:24 <Lymia> !zjoust nyuroki_killer <
06:11:24 <zemhill__> Lymia.nyuroki_killer: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--)
06:11:25 <quintopia> Lymia: yeah i agree. it happened right after this: (27>)27(8+)8(27<)27(27>)27+++++..]
06:11:27 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/7bf4c61c499b562017d03669b7c12e853fb538e4.bfjoust
06:11:31 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points 44.05, score 498.13, rank 1/47
06:11:44 <quintopia> Lymia: so you should probably get rid of any brackets ;)
06:12:06 <Lymia> ais clearly likes some program contruct that screws with my code.
06:12:13 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
06:12:25 <Lymia> (It runs in 60 seconds now, opps)
06:12:40 <Lymia> (The Seq->IndexedSeq was my problem)
06:12:57 <quintopia> Lymia: said "program construct" is locks i warrant
06:13:25 <Lymia> It *shouldn't* actually get locked.
06:13:34 <Lymia> It seems to be failing at detecting the program at all.
06:13:38 <quintopia> esp. triplocks on multiple cells simultaneously
06:13:43 <Lymia> Which means something wrong with the VM
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06:21:28 <\oren\> http://i.imgur.com/TsBLIhA.gifv
06:29:43 <zzo38> tswett: Yes I know that, but I would insist that any patent license is also usable according to the specifications of GPL3 even if they are using it only under CC0 or any other GPL-compatible license.
06:30:34 <zzo38> Will what you suggested work for this case?
06:35:23 <tswett> Well, that's a good question.
06:35:56 <tswett> If your contributors dual-license under CC0 and GPL3, then people will certainly be able to "use the patent license according to the specifications of GPL3".
06:36:17 <tswett> But they won't be able to use the patent license in violation of the GPL3.
06:36:56 <zzo38> As long as the patent license can be used even if the software is not licensed under GPL3.
06:39:23 <alercah> zzo38: what do you mean "can be used"?
06:39:38 <alercah> Do you wish to require people who modify your software to license any related patents?
06:39:48 <alercah> if so, a dual-license will not achieve that objective
06:40:00 <zzo38> No. I intend they can use it for free even if they do not license it
06:40:12 <alercah> I do not think we are talking about the same thing
06:40:28 <alercah> Let's suppose I am someone who modifies your software.
06:40:37 <alercah> Who owns the patent you are referring to? Me or you
06:41:00 <zzo38> Neither me nor you; it is someone who contributed code to my project.
06:42:06 <alercah> Ok. So you want people who contribute to your project to issue a patent license, but if they distribute a modified version themselves they do not have to?
06:42:26 <zzo38> Now I am confused too.
06:43:14 <alercah> Ok, let's say you release version 1.0 of your program.
06:43:14 <zzo38> Perhaps I should just mention that they have to agree that everyone has a perpetual non-revocable royalty-free patent license to use the relevant patents and that they are not allowed to sue anyone over these patents.
06:43:20 <zzo38> That would be simpler, I think.
06:43:40 <zzo38> (If someone objects, they could file a ticket and then perhaps it could be changed.)
06:43:42 <alercah> tswett submits a patch which is included in v1.1
06:43:57 <alercah> you want to make it so that tswett can't sue me?
06:44:49 <tswett> zzo38: uh, lemme see if I can clarify here...
06:44:49 <zzo38> Yes. I intend that tswett can't sue you, even if you use the same patented stuff in other free-software/open-source code (such as that based on v1.0 instead of v1.1, for example).
06:45:14 <alercah> zzo38: but now if tswett makes a fork
06:45:17 <tswett> No... I don't really know what you're asking.
06:45:27 <alercah> and I use the fork in a way he doesn't like
06:45:44 <alercah> do you want to stop him from suing me then? or only when it's your "official" version?
06:46:03 <zzo38> I intend such fork still you have the license for any patents used in that one that are also used in the official version.
06:46:21 <zzo38> And therefore still they cannot sue you
06:46:55 <alercah> but what if the patents are not included in the official version?
06:47:48 <zzo38> Then it is irrelevant as it does not seem to be in the scope of contribution agreement.
06:48:28 <zzo38> (I would want to still not make them to sue you, but I cannot alter the laws and that is outside of the scope of the agreement anyways, so it doesn't seem right to put it in.)
06:49:54 <alercah> in that case, yeah, you want CC0 licensing with a contribution agreement that states that you offer a patent license
06:50:08 <alercah> *that the contributor offers a patent license
06:50:33 <alercah> you could probably add a note to the license indicating that all contributors have agreed to license their patents as described
06:52:22 <zzo38> If I altered the license then it would not be the CC0 license.
06:53:22 <alercah> you are not altering the copyright license
06:53:41 <alercah> but adding a patent license
06:54:00 <alercah> drawing the user's attention to an extant patent license
06:58:57 <Lymia> quintopia, anyway, yeah.
06:59:18 <Lymia> Now that I'm using an actual array instead of a linked list (the nasty part about collections libraries. :()
06:59:23 <Lymia> It runs in 1 minute instead of 2 days. :D
07:07:39 <zzo38> Is this better now? http://sprunge.us/WKZW
07:08:57 <zzo38> A trademark agreement also might be needed which specifies that if your contribution includes anything that is trademarked, that such trademarks can be used for compatibility purposes. Is this already implied by trademark law anyways though? I would think it is but I am unsure.
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07:09:44 <tswett> I think you probably don't have to worry about trademark.
07:10:23 <zzo38> Is the patent license better now?
07:10:32 <tswett> Fair use for trademark is very broad. "Coca-Cola" is a trademark, but I can still say it in IRC, write a book about Coca-Cola, make a YouTube video where I sing a song about Coca-Cola...
07:11:25 <tswett> The only thing I'm prohibited from doing is make people think I'm providing a Coca-Cola product or service, or otherwise representing the Coca-Cola brand in any way.
07:12:26 <tswett> I can even say "Coca-Cola" in an advertisement for a competing soft drink, as long as the ad makes it clear that the soft drink is not a Coca-Cola product.
07:13:22 <zzo38> I think that ReactOS has "Microsoft" in some parts of the registry for compatibility purposes, and a GameBoy cartridge can include the Nintendo logo for compatibility with GameBoy; these are what I meant by, ensure it can be used for compatibility purposes.
07:13:46 <tswett> That's definitely allowed under fair use.
07:14:07 <zzo38> OK, then I do not need to add a trademark license to this agreement.
07:15:00 <zzo38> But, is the patent license better now?
07:15:57 <tswett> Yes, I think I like it. I'm no lawyer, of course. There's just one change I suggest.
07:16:11 <zzo38> OK, what change do you suggest?
07:16:12 <tswett> Change "multiple tiers" to "an unlimited number of tiers".
07:18:22 <zzo38> I took everything from "perpetual" to "otherwise transfer" (inclusive) from another contribution agreement (and it seems similar to many things I have seen before too), although I will change that, as it doesn't seem a problem to change that.
07:19:35 <zzo38> (All words surrounding that part are my own)
07:25:47 <zzo38> Now I have fixed it http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/info/684ffedc2a64e609 http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/info/e71ea80bbdcb339b
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10:00:47 * oerjan notes DatCodingGuy introduced himself :P
10:02:17 <oerjan> we might end up with a tradition here
10:05:17 <int-e> . o O ( I am, what else do you need to know? ~~~~ )
10:06:26 <oerjan> indeed, that is sufficient
10:07:07 <oerjan> i note the filter caught another type of spammer.
10:08:32 <int-e> I wonder how long this will hold.
10:08:40 <oerjan> and also seems to have caught a legitimate user who happened not to be logged in
10:08:43 <Taneb> Why are we being targeted? It's hardly a high traffic wiki
10:08:57 <oerjan> Taneb: i assume they're targeting everyone
10:09:46 <oerjan> the new system is still based on the assumption that, other than captcha solvers, we're not _specifically_ targeted.
10:10:35 <int-e> or perhaps they target wikis with between 500 and 5000 articles; wikis large enough to carry weight in a search engine but so small that they may be unmaintained.
10:11:02 <int-e> (I pulled those numbers out of a hat)
10:11:27 <int-e> (Just making sure that 1071 is included in the range)
10:11:32 * oerjan remembers the mess that was the complexity Zoo wiki last he checked.
10:11:46 <oerjan> basically, it looks fine... but dont try the Random page button.
10:12:22 <oerjan> they had not cleaned up spam created pages at _all_ - but made sure nothing important linked to them.
10:12:48 <int-e> when did we reach the 1k mark anyway?
10:13:08 <int-e> 1757 is the number I should be looking at.
10:14:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:14:44 <oerjan> "There are 5,742 registered users, but most of them are spambots."
10:15:16 <oerjan> no one claim we don't have self-irony.
10:15:31 <int-e> huh, it says 5738 here. oh perhaps because I'm not logged in and seeing a cached version
10:16:07 <int-e> yup, logging in makes a difference
10:17:03 <oerjan> hm, the complexity zoo random button seems to give proper pages now. although i had to press it twice for some reason.
10:17:54 <oerjan> looks a bit skewed, i keep getting the main page.
10:20:52 <int-e> hmm, what happens if you weight the pages by number of visits...
10:28:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49624&oldid=49622 * Oerjan * (+9) Add "external" because everyone's been adding internal ones anyway
10:37:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-introduce-yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49625&oldid=49617 * Oerjan * (+102) Add something for old users forgetting to log in
10:39:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-introduce-yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49626&oldid=49625 * Oerjan * (+0) apparently that's not allowed
11:05:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49627&oldid=49612 * Primo * (+171) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
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15:32:07 <nortti> I've been trying to think of a faster algorithm for greater-than comparison of von-neuman-index encoded natural numbers (that might not be the correct term, it was used in setbang posts but I was unable to find same description under that name elsewhere)
15:33:16 <nortti> basically, von-neuman-index encoding works by representing a number as the set of two's exponents that added up make the number
15:33:37 <nortti> and this is applied recursively
15:34:20 <nortti> I(∅) = 0 I({a, b, c, …}) = 2^I(a) + 2^I(b) + 2^I(c) + …
15:35:41 <nortti> currently, to determine if a > b, I first remove the intersection of the two sets from both (as this is equivalent to substraction, will not change the result of a > b)
15:36:15 <nortti> then, if a is ∅, it's false, and if a is not ∅ but b is ∅, it's true
15:37:44 <nortti> if both a and b are not ∅, I iterate through elements in a, looking for element e_a in a such that for any element e_b in b, e_a > e_b
15:38:06 <nortti> if I find such an element, a is greater than b
15:40:24 <nortti> this is basically removing bits both a and b have, and then seeing which one has higher highest-order-bit. as bits shared by both are removed, one of them is bound to have a higher one. and since 2^(n+1) > sum_{i=0}^n 2^n, that one is larger
15:41:26 <nortti> however, the algo is pretty bad runtimewise, recursively calling itself N(a) * N(b) times in the worst case
15:44:27 <myname> i'd try unifying stuff, but that probably won't do much to the runtime
15:45:39 <myname> the thing is, I({a,b}) = I({c,d}) isn't it?
15:46:09 <myname> as long as a,b,c,d are empty sets, that is
15:46:38 <nortti> it's a set. it can only contain one empty set
15:48:01 <myname> still, how do you intersect?
15:48:16 <nortti> I take the insersection of two sets
15:48:37 <myname> well yeah, but how do you do it on an algorithmical level
15:48:59 <myname> since the sets can be arbitrarily deep, solving intersection should be as hard as solving >
15:49:07 <nortti> I'm currently implementing this with python and frozenset()
15:49:30 <nortti> which aiui uses hashing
15:49:56 <nortti> so intersection is just taking the hashes the two sets have in common
15:57:45 <Lymia> What'd I change, why is this code vulnerable to locks now
15:57:54 <Lymia> Or I assume that's what's happening anyway
16:08:53 <int-e> your newbie mode got turned off?
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16:18:16 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/72208c9952fe382088b2ef34880927ab5570eec7.bfjoust
16:18:19 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -10.31, score 12.81, rank 47/47 (--)
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16:20:26 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/50dff13fa4ddace578da97e7aa9501ae547d8d45.bfjoust
16:20:29 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -40.64, score 1.30, rank 47/47 (--)
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16:27:10 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/50dff13fa4ddace578da97e7aa9501ae547d8d45.bfjoust
16:27:12 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -40.64, score 1.30, rank 47/47 (--)
16:35:32 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/23cb931b70e702782a0fccc21ba6ff0d573060b7.bfjoust
16:35:36 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -39.64, score 1.54, rank 47/47 (--)
16:38:26 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/759dd7055ef7e14415bc676541d74a6d4296a94c.bfjoust
16:38:28 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -31.88, score 4.34, rank 47/47 (--)
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16:54:12 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/7cee2bfbba25d9d41fc2c81c04e5c86c15eaf362.bfjoust
16:54:14 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -31.45, score 4.48, rank 47/47 (--)
17:02:10 <Taneb> Are there any languages which parse reals differently depending on locale
17:02:33 <Taneb> Like, with a continental Europe locale 3,1415 would be roughly pi?
17:03:55 <FireFly> it also changes function names depending on locale, for extra fun
17:04:22 <ais523> Taneb: most languages do that if you turn locale handling on
17:04:27 <ais523> however it is off by default in C
17:04:53 <ais523> (but it's a global setting so it's not unheard of for someone other part of the code to turn it on by mistake)
17:05:35 <FireFly> Oh, I was assuming in source code
17:05:47 <FireFly> and not functions parsing/prettyprinting reals
17:06:51 <ais523> in that case the language parser would have to be /really/ screwed up
17:07:29 <ais523> fwiw this sort of thing is the reason OpenOffice Calc uses ; as an argument separator
17:09:55 <Taneb> Yeah, I meant source code
17:13:24 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/ad30e6efef150681ddf2497c6e820bb205521d20.bfjoust
17:13:26 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points 43.98, score 507.17, rank 1/47 (+46)
17:13:58 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
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17:35:45 <Lymia> !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/6bc22d8bc2f8b76f4f708d003266bc5227db0118.bfjoust
17:35:47 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 45.07, score 734.29, rank 1/47
17:36:20 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
17:44:57 <Lymia> This might be parsing
17:45:33 <Lymia> !zjoust >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1
17:45:33 <zemhill__> Lymia: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
17:45:38 <Lymia> !zjoust wtf >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1
17:45:39 <zemhill__> Lymia.wtf: points -36.29, score 1.92, rank 47/47
17:46:17 <Lymia> !zjoust wtf >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1
17:46:18 <zemhill__> Lymia.wtf: points -36.29, score 1.92, rank 47/47 (--)
17:46:49 <Lymia> I found a egojsout bug
17:47:43 <Lymia> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709
17:49:09 <Lymia> Who develops egojsout?
17:53:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Apple3.14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49628&oldid=49006 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-12) Changed link and number.
17:58:04 <fizzie> Lymia: You know there's a !ztest as well.
17:59:42 <Lymia> fizzie, I need the full breakdown. :c
18:00:29 <Lymia> fizzie, anyway: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709
18:00:40 <Lymia> bfjsout bug if you can fix it
18:01:00 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/cec411b5c549c0a1517e4dbb5a364081e6b1fc7a.bfjoust
18:01:02 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -29.02, score 3.91, rank 47/47
18:01:30 <Lymia> and now it fails to reveal the bug
18:10:30 <Lymia> Bytecode looks right
18:19:49 <Lymia> !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/e3d7a6d47f16e0a6c1d4dd3bba2d0d0031f193ae.bfjoust
18:19:51 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 45.07, score 734.29, rank 1/47
18:20:11 <Lymia> !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/4e162d8368346b0c42c209e2fbcef831e0fb005a.bfjoust
18:20:14 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 45.83, score 999.98, rank 1/47
18:20:21 <Lymia> !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/4e162d8368346b0c42c209e2fbcef831e0fb005a.bfjoust
18:20:22 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 45.83, score 999.98, rank 1/47
18:20:58 <Lymia> waterfall3 survives, huh
18:21:26 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
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18:22:12 <Lymia> ais523, your use of advanced programming techniques continues to be a pain the rear for me.
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18:23:38 <APic> Lymia: What would You do to make it less painfully?
18:25:28 <ais523> Lymia: in what respect? BF Joust compression?
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18:26:35 <Lymia> waterfall3 doesn't process properly in my VM
18:26:38 -!- Zarutian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:26:40 <Lymia> And I have no idea what's left to cause problems.
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18:27:48 <ais523> you could try looking at a trace of how the program runs and comparing it to a trace produced by your VM
18:27:51 <ais523> waterfall3 has a ton of cases
18:28:04 <ais523> so it's not easy to guess which one's causing the problem, initially
18:28:30 <ais523> is kiseki built with a counter-everything algorithm?
18:28:34 <ais523> or is it juts really good?
18:29:02 <Lymia> It's autogenerated to counter everything.
18:29:40 <ais523> hmm, this might actually be the end of BF Joust in this case
18:29:48 <ais523> because it's likely to be trivial to beat by a newly written program
18:30:00 <ais523> the original version of BF Joust kept the source code secret, at least for a while
18:30:03 <ais523> to avoid this sort of countering
18:31:57 <Lymia> Randomly breaks a lock under my VM
18:32:11 <Lymia> [] exits for no reason
18:35:32 <Lymia> That was the dumbest bug possible
18:35:44 <Lymia> I had a mistaken AST manipulation that transformed [] into nothing.
18:35:58 <int-e> now that sounds useful.
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18:37:51 <hppavilion[1]> I watched a movie called "The Invention of Lying" the other day
18:38:48 <myname> does anybody know if ratings in the google play store are somehow filtered or are germans really the only people complaining about stuff not being translated for them?
18:39:20 <Lymia> !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/32f5753d36c979c4b0ca5aa0dba8931b5cd9dc9b.bfjoust
18:39:21 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47 (+46)
18:40:07 <ais523> Lymia: you could do with applying an extra level of RLE to kiseki output
18:40:09 <ais523> it'd make it easier to read
18:40:38 <ais523> atm it only seems to RLE single commands rather than strings of them
18:42:54 <ais523> that said, I've proved that there's a set of 768 programs such that it's impossible to beat all of them on all tape lengths with the same program
18:43:26 <Lymia> Good luck getting them on a hill
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18:44:57 <ais523> also I'm not 100% sure the proof was correct but I can't remember the details
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18:58:27 <Lymia> Let me build a new version
18:58:32 <Lymia> And see if that's because I'm missing someone
18:58:43 <fizzie> Did you replace it with < offscreen? Because the web page's showing it as < for me.
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18:59:54 <fizzie> (Welp, need to dinner-away anyway.)
19:01:05 <quintopia> fizzie: this is weird. this page http://zem.fi/bfjoust/breakdown/#ais523.basic_attack says "quintopia_brachiation wins" but when you view in the graphical interpreter, it shows the other winning overwhelmingly. what's the deal?
19:01:27 <oerjan> why do people leave just when i want to say something to them
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19:02:39 <Lymia> quintopia, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709
19:02:43 <Lymia> I found a bug in it
19:02:54 <Lymia> It treats (x)*-1 as (x-)*-1 apparently
19:02:58 * oerjan is pondering how to make the link in ais523's new filter's error message open in a new tab/window, and sadly concludes that mediawiki makes that ridiculously complicated and probably needs the LinkTarget extension
19:03:33 <oerjan> (i think it should do that so that people don't accidentally get their edits deleted in a stressful situation)
19:03:40 <ais523> you either need an extention or to rewrite the link using JavaScript
19:04:03 <Lymia> That's two programming games based on BF I've done bad things to.
19:04:05 <shachaf> whoa, is that the British spelling?
19:04:16 <shachaf> Or is it like intention/intension?
19:04:19 <oerjan> ais523: what it someone doesn't have js enabled?
19:04:34 <oerjan> shachaf: of course not. swatting gives positive karma hth
19:04:34 <ais523> then the link doesn't get rewritten
19:04:38 <Lymia> I'm pretty sure that's a typo
19:04:44 <ais523> the use of JS is a hack in this situation
19:04:54 <ais523> shachaf: was just a typo
19:05:03 <ais523> although it's very believable as a real spelling
19:05:21 <shachaf> It was extensionally indistinguishable from an intentional spelling.
19:05:24 <Lymia> !ztest did-i-break-it https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/270c73c713877745c3d670fb8411d462ae82d530.bfjoust
19:05:26 <zemhill__> Lymia.did-i-break-it: points 12.12, score 34.72, rank 5/47
19:06:57 <FireFly> Lymia: which is the other BF-based game?
19:07:19 <Lymia> I didn't really break-break it, but.
19:07:23 <ais523> FukYorBrane is mathematically broken because you can write a program which will always beat all programs that are shorter than it by more than a certain proportion
19:07:34 <ais523> meaning that optimal strategy is to take that program and keep making it longer
19:07:38 <ais523> I never bothered to actually write it though
19:07:50 <Lymia> I found out that in fukyerbrane, @@ lets you set the data pointer
19:07:57 <Lymia> Probably not an intentional primitive.
19:08:38 <ais523> oh, I was using a trick involving defecting and loops
19:08:58 <ais523> in order to teleport the IP faster than the other program's speed of light
19:09:17 <ais523> thus giving you a certain length of time where you were guaranteed to be not interfered with
19:09:41 <fizzie> quintopia: Yeah, the breakdown + "X wins" message is from the gearlance results, while the game browser is a forked copy of egojsout. They did produce identical results for the hill I started from (comparing the outputs is part of my regression test suite), but I guess something's wrong.
19:09:49 <fizzie> (I'm still trying to be away and make dinner.)
19:11:58 <Lymia> Constructing a minimum error case is harder than I thought
19:13:19 <Lymia> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=ce11b1ce0d71cf74f2fd6db9e8f1c86de0973812&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709
19:13:32 <quintopia> Lymia: neither of those programs use *-1
19:13:52 <myname> Lymia: how do you use @@?
19:13:54 <Lymia> You might have found another. \o/
19:14:22 <quintopia> Lymia: most likely, but i don't have the gumption to track it down atm
19:14:23 <ais523> "%-1" is a dubious concept as it is
19:15:07 <quintopia> ais523: nah. makes perfect sense. -1 is shorthand for "the maximum allowed number of repetitions"
19:15:23 <quintopia> supposed to be up to the interpreter to figure out what it means
19:15:29 <ais523> I don't like that shorthand because it makes - parse ambiguously
19:15:38 <ais523> although I implemented it in juiced anyway because people keep using it
19:17:16 <quintopia> ais523: it doesn't actually seem ambiguous though, since - should only appear after * or % in precisely this context. I would consider a * or % not followed by a - or number a syntax error in a bfjoust program
19:17:35 <ais523> it's not ambiguous from the point of view of parsing
19:17:40 <ais523> nor really from the point of view of tokenisation
19:17:56 <ais523> but it still feels like it violates the spirit of BF to use the same character for two different things
19:19:07 <FireFly> could have used some other glyph for it, like _ or something
19:20:11 <quintopia> or just not include it, and require programmers to type 1111111111 or something (is that long enough for the average "maximum repetitions"?)
19:21:31 <ais523> unless you're repeating one character as your entire program
19:21:35 <ais523> in which case you need one extra copy
19:22:26 <quintopia> i'd go with 111111 just because the 1s look cleaner :D
19:26:52 <oerjan> <ais523> also I'm not 100% sure the proof was correct but I can't remember the details <-- didn't we find essentially the same proof
19:28:32 <Lymia> !ztest is-it-working-yet https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d2b103275d0bdd2f3019c20ad2bb4a1cbaf5dfdf.bfjoust
19:28:34 <zemhill__> Lymia.is-it-working-yet: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47
19:28:45 <Lymia> !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d2b103275d0bdd2f3019c20ad2bb4a1cbaf5dfdf.bfjoust
19:28:47 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47 (+46)
19:30:58 <oerjan> oh right, _all_ tape lengths. so they just have to work for one.
19:31:42 <oerjan> and you can choose which.
19:33:18 <oerjan> hm would it be possible to reduce the 3 to 2
19:33:29 <Lymia> My defense algorithm isn't good enough to kill the whole hill at once without using brackets. :(
19:33:34 <Lymia> It tries! (but fails and dies)
19:34:38 <oerjan> (as in, do you actually need the programs that don't modify their own flag)
19:38:33 <FreeFull> I've had a cool idea for an esoteric language, but I don't know if someone else has come up with the same thing and implemented it already
19:38:43 <FreeFull> Essentially, it's a language that gets executed "backwards in time"
19:39:18 <FreeFull> So Hello, World! would be something like fn main() { let x = read_line(); assert(x == "Hello, World!"); }
19:39:51 <FreeFull> If something inconsistent happens, the program will terminate with a "paradox"
19:41:14 <Lymia> ais523, https://github.com/Lymia/BFJoust-Utils
19:41:18 <Lymia> If you want to look over my generators.
19:41:19 <ais523> FreeFull: WUUI uses a similar principle
19:41:28 <ais523> although to a different end
19:41:34 <Lymia> This is a bit of a hack job
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19:42:41 <FreeFull> The challenge would be getting a language like this to actually do some useful computation, rather than just verify the user's input
19:43:00 <FreeFull> Also I think implementing it will be hard
19:43:19 <ais523> WUUI is easy to implement but very hard to implement efficiently
19:45:23 <FreeFull> fn main() { let a = 0, b = 1; loop *3 { print(a); print(b); a += b; b += a; } } will have the user enter the fibonnacci sequence backwards, otherwise the program terminates with a paradox
19:45:52 <Lymia> What do I even put on BF Joust strategies?
19:45:55 <FreeFull> The individual lines wouldn't be backwards, for convenience
19:46:47 <FreeFull> With terminal trickery by the end you can even make it look like the program was executed and printed out the fibonacci sequence by itself ;)
19:47:12 <ais523> Lymia: I guess you could just explain that it was found by computer search to beat all existing programs
19:47:55 <Lymia> It ha some semblance of a strategy.
19:48:10 <Lymia> It aggressively distinguishes different programs using []
19:48:26 <Lymia> Then switches between a defense and attack loop to kill stuff off.
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20:15:25 <quintopia> Lymia: make your program generayor automatically generate a description of its strategy
20:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> For example, if one crime C is considered 1/100th as bad as another crime D, then usually the punishment for D will be 100 times worse than that for C
20:16:14 <hppavilion[1]> But you can make a statistically similar system by, instead of putting people guilty of D in prison for 10 years and people guilty of C in prison for 0.1
20:16:40 <hppavilion[1]> Putting people guilty of D in prison for 10 years always and people guilty of C in prison for 10 years 1% of the time, chosen at random
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20:17:12 <Lymia> It does spam output I guess
20:17:15 <Lymia> But that was for debugging
20:18:35 <quintopia> Lymia: make it output meaningful and narrative english sentences. you know, just for fun
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20:23:20 <quintopia> has anyone written good code while walking on a treadmill?
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22:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> Can I please restructure english with a fully-productive case system and some nice extra tenses
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22:38:37 <quintopia> learn some other lang if you need it
22:38:39 <myname> while ypu are at it, add an alphabet that makes itpossible to actually pronouncr words correctly
22:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I'm going to learn german this year, so that's nice
22:39:25 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody pointed out to me the lack of a past-impossible case and I now need one
22:40:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Is it possible to simply rebind my keyboard to add letters like that?)
22:40:08 <quintopia> i don't belive you. that couldn't have happened
22:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Past-impossible is for things that were true but now aren't, but where the external facts haven't changed
22:40:53 <hppavilion[1]> Like referring to someone who, in the past, did not know the (still-the-same) location of New Jerseey
22:41:10 <hppavilion[1]> You could say "E didn't know where New Jersey was", but that implies that New Jersey isn't there any more
22:41:42 <hppavilion[1]> Or "E didn't know where New Jersey is", but people don't like that
22:41:44 <quintopia> didnt know where new jersey is leaves unanswered whether they know now
22:42:26 <Taneb> He didn't know where New Jersey had been going to be
22:42:49 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: No, that implies New Jersey was going to move (and since has), but that he wasn't informed of the new location
22:43:06 <quintopia> how about a tense for things that were true in the past but it is expressly uncertain whether they are currently true
22:43:38 <hppavilion[1]> (I want fn+t to be þ and shift+fn+t to be (of course) Þ)
22:43:43 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I was trying for the worst possible avast
22:43:56 <FireFly> you could make that work with altgr easily
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22:44:10 <FireFly> or well, assuming you're american you could probably just use us-international
22:44:12 <quintopia> i think you just invented a new tense taneb
22:44:55 <hppavilion[1]> I definitely want the Habitual/continuative aspect from AAVE
22:46:00 <quintopia> does "he works on tuesdays" not capture the same info?
22:46:48 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#US-International
22:46:57 <myname> hppavilion[1]: you are watching xidnaf?
22:47:18 <myname> quintopia: the example is bad
22:47:27 <myname> quintopia: "he be working" is better
22:48:17 <myname> he be working = he has a job
22:49:40 <myname> xidnaf is a small youtube channel about language stuff
22:50:47 <zzo38> You may also to define your own keyboard layout (how this is done depend what operating system)
22:50:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49629&oldid=49624 * Ais523 * (+57) looks like at least one human didn't read the instructions…
22:51:47 <zzo38> What layer is changing the name of an object in Magic: the Gathering?
22:52:02 <myname> i am always looking for similar channels
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23:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( If I learn DVORAK and change my computer's keyboard layout to it, then nobody will ever be able to use my keyboard if they aren't me )
23:08:06 <FireFly> (or other dvorak users obviously)
23:09:40 <zzo38> If you change the labels too then somebody can see that it is not QWERTY layout.
23:09:45 <myname> that's wrong, noone will be able to use any keyboard on your computer, but your keyboard almost anywhere
23:11:52 <hppavilion[1]> Henceforþ, þe sound previously represented wiþ þe digraph "th" shall be written wiþ þ ("þorn"), at least for me
23:12:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm actively making a custom keyboard rebinding to include it wiþ altgr+t (and capital wiþ altgr+shift+t)
23:13:45 <tswett> I þink þat's a good idea.
23:13:57 <hppavilion[1]> (I will allow þ to represent boþ voiced and unvoiced dental fricatives)
23:14:00 <myname> hppavilion[1]: we already are
23:15:02 <tswett> Hey, have a randomly generated etymology or ten.
23:15:05 <tswett> bronchy (n.) Look up broint at Dictionary.com
23:15:05 <tswett> masc. proper name, from Proto-Germanic *brandin (cognates: Gaulish desma, Old Frisian biflie, Old Irish bingane) "to gritter, quirtly, diamon" (cognate with Old Saxon bindre), from dsanque "near with sheeper, drink, chronal, grow," from PIE root *dhan- "to fees-wittle" (see the Anauil). Related: Accommlint.
23:15:58 <myname> i am curious about the etymology of super market
23:16:22 * hppavilion[1] contemplates adding additional letters for sh, ch, and ng
23:16:38 <tswett> 1843, from corn (n.) + head. Related: Contented; contenting.
23:16:47 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: you should use eth when appropriate methinks
23:16:47 <tswett> Good ol' recursive etymologies.
23:16:57 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: maybe also long s
23:17:50 <myname> hppavilion[1]: https://youtu.be/fPzAABMozs0
23:18:09 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: but you've got a nice letter for "ph". It's ɸ.
23:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm honestly planning to use þese in school þis year. My teachers can't stop me because rules mwahahahahaha)
23:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: ...þose are exactly the same in my dialect
23:18:24 <zzo38> What rules are those?
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23:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: "ph" makes þe same sound as "f", so if I want to kill it it'll just be replaced wiþ 'f'
23:19:24 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: that last þ should be ð instead
23:19:27 <FireFly> "My teachers can't stop me because rules"
23:19:54 <FireFly> Didn't elliott decide to use long s'es when appropriate for a while?
23:20:12 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: clipboard? You mean keyboard, no? or is it to µ in its selection of keys?
23:20:14 <tswett> "bolopic late 14c.," 1861, only with a wadmer attention man, "pourness, son of the misses" (c. 1300), supposed to restricted the numble correct the surges in the words for the found intercours from brethed "to throw or for strength" (1560s). Meaning "spitchs of dawn," the first it also in first element and in ambushi (1793). As a variant a allo-ded attested from 1778.
23:20:47 * Zarutian hands hppavilion[1] a π for his troubles
23:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Due to a probably-not-quite-accurate diagnosis of Asperger's by a doctor who seems to have it himself, my teachers have been warned about me, and spelling reform will be noþing for þem
23:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Clipboard; I haven't finished þe new keyboard layout yet, so I'm just hitting ctrl+v every time I need þ
23:22:36 <FireFly> and probably not in the spirit of the diagnosis :P
23:22:38 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: wrote a short essay using nothing but old futhark runes. Got it back with comments in red ink, written in same runes
23:22:56 <FireFly> I think nortti would enjoy that
23:23:11 <FireFly> seems like something he'd do, too
23:23:27 <hppavilion[1]> ('o' binds to 'ø', not because I plan to use it for spelling, but because I need to be able to type it for every time I write my name)
23:24:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Norwegian descent on my faþer's side; last name was anglicized, but I deanglicized it)
23:24:34 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Should I put eþ under my 'd' key? It looks kind of like a 'd'. 't' is taken for þ
23:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, it looks like Google corrects 'þ' into 'th' in searches
23:25:55 <olsner> it might be searching for both, but I get lots of thorns
23:26:02 <Zarutian> a bit of a þorny issue sometimes. Specially when diffrenating between Thorlacious and Þórláks
23:26:25 <FireFly> there, now I can type ſ and µ
23:26:39 <olsner> did we wipe the quotes or something?
23:27:25 <myname> what's the point in replacing a symbol with another one
23:27:41 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, relevant 'er's will also be reversed, and 'u' will be used as intended in choice 'or' words. 'defence' over 'defense', etc.)
23:27:54 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ...I want to say some noble, spelling reform-related cause
23:28:00 <FireFly> myname: what are you thinking of?
23:28:06 <Zarutian> myname: I do not know but then I do not live at Pretentiusstraße
23:28:10 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i meant Zarutian
23:28:17 <hppavilion[1]> But it's really just that I like þ as a letter and would prefer to try and get it reinstated into english
23:28:49 <hppavilion[1]> Damn, searching for "þeater" gives me non-english results
23:28:56 <myname> Zarutian: it didn't make sense in german either, i think. except for resultung in the ß diphtong
23:29:01 <hppavilion[1]> Wonder if there's a way to coax google to modify my searches...
23:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: I was always under the impression ∫ was stylistic, not a distinct letter (like þe difference between single- and double-story 'a' and 'g')
23:30:57 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it wasn't a distinct letter
23:31:31 <myname> it is basically the same as s, but you write it if not at the beginning of a syllable
23:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe I could make a Firefox extension þat turns 'þ' into 'th' in a search?)
23:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering turning 'ng' to 'ŋ' as well; should I?
23:33:25 <myname> or you could as well just stop writing shitty
23:34:35 <myname> i do agree that english should be reformed somehow, but just randomly exchange stuff like you feel like it just makes it harder for anyone to communicate with you
23:35:10 <myname> i won't stop you, but if it gets too obscure, i won't take the time to read what you are trying to say
23:36:07 <myname> you just named like 4 symbols or so ypu want to introduce and to force others to remember
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23:39:22 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: ...yeah, ðat's kind of where ðis is headed, isn't it?
23:40:26 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I'll stop after I have a ch; ðat's ðe last one I need
23:40:40 <olsner> you should also start using wynn and yogh
23:42:17 <tswett> 1530s, "a downs," but the meaning "squind found rubles which is taken as the name by intrograte into, drink falsion," from croby (n.).
23:42:24 <tswett> "crowting/" is an interesting word.
23:42:31 <tswett> Apparently its part of speech is "century".
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23:47:12 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Is ðere any old or middle-engliʃ letter for "ch"?
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23:49:23 <myname> we should all speak lojban
23:50:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Agreed, but I doubt ðat my school would be able to find a translator
23:51:09 <hppavilion[1]> (for more utilitarian purposes, I'm adding € as well)
00:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> A couple of warniŋs about various symbols not recognized by ðe default codepage, so ðose won't work in non-Unicode applications
00:02:29 <hppavilion[1]> But let's be honest; everyþing supports Unicode now, and ðe stuff ðat doesn't is ðe stuff ðat requires proper spelling (e.g. command lines, programming languages)
00:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> (I was careful in ðat I didn't ĉange ðe default parts of my keyboard layout; all ðe extra letters are altgr-related)
00:06:12 <myname> "i don't plan to make it too obscure", he said
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02:07:24 <hppavilion[1]> Humans ʃould've evolved a sense þat allows us to 'see' neutrinos...
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02:52:05 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: who says we can't see neutrinos already?
02:53:37 <tswett> A neutrino can produce a flash of light when it interacts with some water.
02:58:22 <tswett> And the stuff in our eyes is watery.
02:58:52 <int-e> So how often in a lifetime is that expected to happen?
02:59:13 <int-e> (I expect the number to be smaller than 1)
02:59:45 <hppavilion[1]> Has anybody applied math to shipping before (currently, newspeak is on hold)
03:00:17 <int-e> I also should sleep.
03:00:29 <hppavilion[1]> "Portraying a character in a relationship with themself- or a close copy- is referred to as a "degenerate ship", and does not strictly qualify as a proper ship, but is studied in Fandomry nonetheless"
03:00:37 <zzo38> I don't know how often that would happen, but even if it does, you might not be able to see if the light is not enough.
03:00:46 <zzo38> (But, I don't know if the light is enough or not)
03:30:02 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out the genetic relationship between two people when each one's parent is the sibling of one of the other's parent
03:30:30 <hppavilion[1]> (so your fathers are (non-identical twin) brothers and your mothers are (non-identical twin) sisters
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03:44:33 <tswett> zzo38: I think theoretically, humans can see single photons.
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04:00:47 <zemhill__> web.minpoijjikop: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-44)
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04:26:40 <HackEgo> Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
04:31:09 <HackEgo> <tswett> le/rn fish/Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
04:31:40 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
04:31:41 <shachaf> Did you do that in /msg 5 minutes ago?
04:31:49 <shachaf> You shouldn't le/rn in /msg
04:32:03 <shachaf> I don't know why you add the wisdoms that you do.
04:32:13 <tswett> All right, I won't le/rn in /msg in the future.
04:32:27 <shachaf> You shouldn't modify the HackEgo filesystem in /msg.
04:36:55 <shachaf> This rule is more important than the previous one.
04:39:06 <tswett> I won't do that either.
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05:41:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: go: not found
05:41:41 <myname> did you purchase that melon soda?
05:42:08 <\oren\> myname: not yet, i have to figure out if I can have it delivered to my house or workplace
05:43:48 <myname> weird, i never heard of it but wikipedia claims it is pretry big
05:48:02 <myname> they don't seem to have it on the german site, at least
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06:24:15 <hppavilion[1]> Someday, we're going to have bandwidth making 4320p180 "no big deal"
06:24:33 <hppavilion[1]> (but we probably won't use it, because it isn't really much better for the eyes
06:35:57 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I find 720p already good enough
06:37:08 <hppavilion[1]> My computer monitor can't really handle 720p60, and unfortunately the Yogscast now uploads all videos in 240p, 360p, 480p, 720p60, and 1080p60
06:37:39 <hppavilion[1]> So I can either watch in sub-HD quality or have a laggy system
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09:07:07 <int-e> @tell oerjan this idea of not trusting coerce was very tedious to follow through: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/925fe0548caffe24a8a2e64857421c77d930cbf8/patches/profunctors-5.2.patch and https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/925fe0548caffe24a8a2e64857421c77d930cbf8/patches/lens-4.14.patch ... too many hours went into this (mostly staring at code and trying to justify its safety)
09:08:07 <int-e> The good news is that I can finally update lambdabot to 8.0.1, I think... just have to build it... if I haven't missed anything... will see later.
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09:35:42 <Taneb> It was largely coincident with mine
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11:02:41 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 55m 33s ago: this idea of not trusting coerce was very tedious to follow through: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/925fe0548caffe24a8a2e64857421c77d930cbf8/patches/profunctors-5.2.patch and https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/925fe0548caffe24a8a2e64857421c77d930cbf8/patches/lens-4.14.patch ... too many hours went
11:02:41 <lambdabot> into this (mostly staring at code and trying to justify its safety)
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11:07:22 <oerjan> so far the new filter appears to be catching 100% of spammers and 100% of legitimate new users. i'm not quite sure the balance is quite right...
11:08:31 <oerjan> (admittedly there's only one of the latter yet.)
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11:11:49 <oerjan> @ask int-e have you complained to kmett tmnh
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11:12:56 <oerjan> s/complained/sent pull requests/ mhb
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11:36:52 <izabera> is it to be expected for quicksort to go from 100 elements to 18446744073709551615 elements?
11:37:27 <oerjan> izabera: er, probably not?
11:40:06 <boily> izabellora. what are you sorting?
11:40:55 <oerjan> boily: she's probably sorting tribbles hth
11:41:04 <izabera> apparently i'm sorting my whole address space
11:45:05 <izabera> off by 1 errors look much more friendly than off by ~0ull
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12:07:28 <int-e> oerjan: I have tried to discuss this issue a while ago, but got no reply at the time: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/661
12:16:57 <int-e> (at that time I missed the fact that profunctors effectively exports coerce as well)
12:18:12 <int-e> in any case... is there any tooling support for safehaskell yet? loading modules in ghci to see which imports are the unsafe ones is awfully tedious.
12:20:24 <oerjan> unfortunately, you might be the only person with a need...
12:21:18 <oerjan> i suppose there are some other online interpreters.
12:22:06 <int-e> also, the reflection package has grown some new ugly code since the last time I looked at it: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflection-2.1.2/docs/src/Data-Reflection.html#B
12:24:44 <oerjan> i vaguely think the Given class might be a bigger problem...
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12:25:22 <int-e> Hmm, but I know how that trick works.
12:26:11 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PAGINATED CHICKEN).
12:27:49 <int-e> And in any case the Given code looks beautiful. Its evilness is all below the surface.
12:29:32 <int-e> The Typeable reflection code is ugly, but indeed slightly less evil underneath.
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14:24:12 <b_jonas> M:tG stuff. Do you recall that Eldritch Moon prints a black bordered take on an un-card: the meld cards are version of the B.F.M. (and S.N.O.T.)
14:24:43 <b_jonas> Well, Conspiracy 2 is printing the black bordered take of an un-card too.
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14:24:54 <b_jonas> A different un-card, one that's never been done in black bordered land that is.
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18:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized my name ("Nathan") contains a 'th'
18:21:05 <hppavilion[1]> And now I have to decide wheðer or not to use ðe 'þ' ðere.
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18:54:20 <oerjan> @tell ais523 funny how all the new spammers coming in after you made that new filter get caught only by it. the quickbooks people seem to have stopped, anyhow.
18:55:44 <oerjan> @tell ais523 well, i guess their original ips were blocked, that might have affected it.
18:56:34 <oerjan> @tell ais523 slightly disturbing that it also stopped the one legitimate new editor :P
19:00:44 <oerjan> @tell ais523 i'm slightly annoyed that there doesn't seem to be a way to reorder the filters. i thought inserting one before the filter might help give a more helpful error message for those forgetting to log in first
19:01:12 <oerjan> @tell ais523 *before filter 9
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19:02:17 <oerjan> jonas, now extra wobbly
19:02:42 <oerjan> did you break your other computer
19:02:50 <wob_jonas> just cut into the tip of my index finger with a bread knife
19:03:04 <oerjan> been there, done that.
19:03:47 <oerjan> ...surprisingly long since i last did that...
19:04:00 <wob_jonas> I should KNOW not to get my hand where the knife can go when cutting
19:04:17 <oerjan> i do know, but i also get stressed sometimes.
19:05:12 <wob_jonas> I've cut myself with knife a couple of times, often when cleaning it. this time, I was cutting bread.
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19:18:15 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I think it is possible to split up the checks more without reordering the filters, not sure if it's worth it...
19:18:49 <izabera> my off by ~0ull is now a off by 1
19:18:59 <izabera> can someone help me debug it?
19:19:27 <olsner> but off by ~0ull is just off by one
19:19:37 <izabera> yeah but this is a different one
19:19:52 <izabera> https://arin.ga/jhgXQH/raw this is my quicksort https://arin.ga/CJvsx9/raw and this is a test program
19:19:56 <oerjan> or (unsigned long long) (-1), i presume
19:19:58 <izabera> https://arin.ga/tB73J3/raw output i get
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19:20:19 <olsner> hmm, off by -1 should be one step more correct than off by 0
19:20:30 <izabera> it prints the array at each step for debugging purposes
19:26:00 <oerjan> ok that C is too complicated for me.
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19:29:16 <izabera> i think the problem is in my partition step
19:29:56 <izabera> that works fine if one chooses 0 as the pivot but i'm choosing the median of 0, end/2, end
19:30:15 <izabera> so sometimes i end up looping forever
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19:31:10 <oerjan> <zemhill__> web.minpoijjikop: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-44) <-- wat
19:31:24 <oerjan> did a spammer find the web interface, or something.
19:31:48 <oerjan> hm fizzie is highly idle
19:32:57 <oerjan> hm zemhill shows up in googling for that word. i guess it's genuine.
19:39:10 * oerjan finds himself reloading the abuse log often enough now that he wishes for a moment that HackEgo announced it...
19:39:26 <oerjan> this might not be optimal.
19:40:05 <wob_jonas> oerjan: perhaps it's some strange Finnish word or concatenation of words
19:41:28 <oerjan> well i think poij- is a form of poika, meaning boy.
19:42:22 <oerjan> but the rest doesn't look very finnish.
19:44:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, it's strange because "min" would be in Swedish
19:45:19 <oerjan> well pojke is a swedish word, i suspect borrowed from the finnish one.
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19:45:33 <oerjan> or maybe vice versa. i should look that up.
19:45:38 <wob_jonas> so is the whole thing swedish then?
19:46:00 <oerjan> from finnish, claims wiktionary.
19:46:32 <oerjan> well no, the -jikop part isn't very swedish either. and there's an extra -i- too.
19:46:57 <wob_jonas> how do the norwegians spell it? they have such strange spellings
19:47:46 <oerjan> norwegian hasn't borrowed that word, we use "gutt" which is theorized to be from dutch.
19:48:44 <oerjan> and danish uses "dreng"
19:49:01 <oerjan> (which is archaic in norwegian.)
19:49:08 <wob_jonas> does "ikop" mean something without the "j" in some language?
19:49:58 <oerjan> apparently dreng is from norse.
19:50:46 <oerjan> köp is swedish for "buy"
19:51:09 <wob_jonas> but then "poijji" would be strange
19:51:32 <oerjan> køp isn't really anything that i know, i think the danish is køb, and the norwegian is kjøp.
19:52:23 <oerjan> kop is a verb in norwegian, at least in my dialect, meaning "stare" or "ogle" (i'm not exactly sure.)
19:53:15 <oerjan> ok "dreng" in norwegian nowadays means farmhand, essentially.
19:57:35 <oerjan> i think the -ijji- is strange no matter how you look at it.
19:58:20 <int-e> lesson learned: bind mounts don't follow symlinks
19:58:22 <oerjan> it couldn't really be any scandinavian language, and i'm not sure about finnish.
19:59:12 <int-e> ghci isn't getting any faster :/
19:59:58 <oerjan> "While /ʋ/ and /j/ may appear as geminates when spoken (e.g. vauva [ʋɑuʋːɑ], raijata [rɑijːɑtɑ]), this distinction is not phonemic, and is not indicated in spelling."
20:00:06 <int-e> up from 1.2s to almost 2 seconds... that will cause a lot of timeouts.
20:00:06 <oerjan> so it's not even finnish.
20:00:29 <int-e> (note that this is best case time)
20:01:28 <FireFly> <oerjan> well pojke is a swedish word, i suspect borrowed from the finnish one. ← probably the other way around, that's generally the case I think
20:01:53 <oerjan> FireFly: wiktionary claims it's from finnish to swedish. it doesn't really look swedish, after all.
20:02:17 <int-e> okay, what else is missing... hoogle database
20:02:28 <FireFly> wob_jonas: according to wiktionary the finnish word is from proto-finnic, from proto-uralic
20:02:49 <oerjan> "From Proto-Finnic *poika, from Proto-Uralic *pojka. Cognate with Livvi poigu, Estonian poeg, poiss and Hungarian fiú."
20:02:52 <FireFly> "Cognate with Livvi poigu, Estonian poeg, poiss and Hungarian fiú."
20:02:57 <oerjan> that's pretty definite.
20:03:02 <wob_jonas> Can -ijji- appear in a spelling of some word like Ilion (Troy) or million in some language?
20:04:04 <oerjan> it occurs to me that minpoijjikop may simply have been chosen as a random combination of letters on the right side of a qwerty keyboard.
20:04:52 <wob_jonas> oerjan: so it's button mash like jlas;dkljdad;skj on the homerow (but when your index finger is cut)?
20:06:13 <FireFly> where did minpoijjikop appear?
20:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should install German Dvorak and learn to type on that?
20:06:52 <oerjan> minpoijjikop = 271987447589 if you think of it as embedded numpad (which i had on my previous laptop)
20:06:58 <wob_jonas> hppavilion: German is useful. dunno about dvorak.
20:08:04 <FireFly> in dutch it'd probably be koep
20:08:42 <wob_jonas> oerjan: wait what? that's not how an embedded numpad is usually laid out
20:09:51 <wob_jonas> oerjan: isn't the usual layout y/mjkluio789/0123456789/ ?
20:10:42 <oerjan> wob_jonas: well it's the only way to fit this in one, is all
20:11:21 <oerjan> hm right the 0 gets awkward
20:11:35 <olsner> ah, my laptop also has a numpad, on those keys
20:12:07 <FireFly> wob_jonas: I don't know, but it looks more dutch to me that way
20:12:17 <oerjan> koep doesn't seem to be a dutch word, although koepel is.
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20:13:58 <olsner> oh, n is not in my numpad, maybe it's just stabbing the keyboard across the mnijkop keys
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20:15:53 <wob_jonas> we should add a wisdom entry for minpoijjikop
20:16:13 <int-e> wow, hoogle's taking its time...
20:19:49 <int-e> increased the timeout a bit (if I found the right knob), hopefully that'll do the trick
20:21:45 <oerjan> int-e: i don't think that one will finish anyhow hth
20:22:09 <wob_jonas> oerjan: sure it does. it only takes about O(omega) time.
20:22:13 <int-e> oerjan: I was looking at the 12 seconds between sending that message and the reply, obviously!!!!1
20:22:53 <int-e> in the meantime, hoogle is indexing package 1540 out of 1998?!
20:24:07 <lambdabot> Djinn command failed: djinn: readCreateProcess: runInteractiveProcess: exec: does not exist (No such file or directory)
20:24:08 <oerjan> that 1998 does seem a bit low
20:24:31 <oerjan> practically last century
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20:24:57 <int-e> cabal: unrecognized 'install' option `--dry-un'
20:25:08 <int-e> stupid program, it's totally clear what I meant ;-)
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20:34:05 <lambdabot> Error: kind error: (KArrow (KVar 1) (KVar 2),KVar 0)
20:34:35 <FreeFull> @djinn (Functor f) => a -> b -> f a -> f b
20:34:50 <FreeFull> It doesn't know about functors?
20:36:10 <lambdabot> djinn provides: djinn djinn-add djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-clr djinn-ver
20:36:18 <oerjan> maybe it's actually empty
20:36:26 <wob_jonas> int-e: as a general policy, we don't allow programs to autocomplete typoed option names, beacuse (1) then a script that works now can start to fail later as more options are added, and (2) it could invoke dangerous options, like "mv: invalid option '-t', auto-correcting to '-f'" or something (or see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html )
20:36:40 <int-e> @djinn knows Eq and Monad, apparently.
20:37:05 <oerjan> int-e: i thought those were part of @djinn-env
20:37:05 <int-e> wob_jonas: just for the record, I wasn't serious.
20:37:23 <int-e> oerjan: perhaps but they're also here: https://github.com/augustss/djinn/blob/master/src/Djinn.hs
20:37:26 <FreeFull> @djinn (Eq a b) => a -> b -> Bool
20:38:03 <int-e> in any case I do not feel responsible for @djinn at all.
20:38:29 <oerjan> @djinn-add class Functor f where fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
20:38:32 <wob_jonas> hehe, yes, that looks like a rank error
20:38:37 <FreeFull> @djinn (Eq a) => a -> a -> (Bool, Bool)
20:38:38 <lambdabot> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> f :: (Eq a) => a -> a -> (Bool, Bool)
20:38:43 <oerjan> int-e: shouldn't it respond something
20:39:11 <oerjan> and maybe a bit less clumped
20:40:04 <int-e> oerjan: I think you're in "patches welcome" territory there.
20:40:28 <FreeFull> @djinn (Eq a) => a -> a -> (Bool, Bool)
20:40:29 <lambdabot> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> f :: (Eq a) => a -> a -> (Bool, Bool)
20:40:58 <int-e> I don't even know how that works
20:41:03 <lambdabot> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> Djinn> f :: a -> a
20:41:11 <int-e> @djinn-del class Functor
20:41:18 <int-e> @djinn-del class Functor f where fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f
20:42:20 <oerjan> @djinn-del class Functor f where fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
20:42:28 <lambdabot> data Either a b = Left a | Right b
20:42:32 <lambdabot> class Monad m where return :: a -> m a; (>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
20:42:34 <lambdabot> class Eq a where (==) :: a -> a -> Bool
20:42:41 <lambdabot> Either Left Right Maybe Nothing Just Bool False True Void Not Void Monad Eq Bool
20:43:09 <lambdabot> hoogle: The Hoogle file /home/lambda/.hoogle/default-haskell-5.0.2.hoo is truncated, probably due to an error during creation.
20:43:09 <lambdabot> error, called at src/General/Store.hs:181:13 in hoogle-5.0.2-5GwbZ4e6btT4ckpCChTs4k:General.Store
20:43:09 <lambdabot> error, called at src/General/Util.hs:239:66 in hoogle-5.0.2-5GwbZ4e6btT4ckpCChTs4k:General.Util
20:43:27 <int-e> hoogle is still initializing
20:43:32 <FreeFull> @djinn (Eq a) => a -> a -> Bool
20:44:24 <FreeFull> Does it produce a random operator each time?
20:44:37 <FreeFull> This one has an odd truth table
20:44:40 <Taneb> @djinn a -> (a->a->b) -> b
20:45:07 <int-e> (and taking its time, probably thrashing the VM)
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20:51:13 <wob_jonas> hppavilion[1]: levezeti. no wait, that's a different pun.
20:51:17 <int-e> @hoogle (Monoid s) => s -> s -> s
20:51:21 <lambdabot> Prelude mappend :: Monoid a => a -> a -> a
20:51:21 <lambdabot> Data.Monoid mappend :: Monoid a => a -> a -> a
20:51:21 <lambdabot> Data.Semigroup mappend :: Monoid a => a -> a -> a
20:51:35 <hppavilion[1]> A: Use the classic "uncountably many cops of varying good/bad alignments on a [0,1] interval" routine
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20:58:29 <oerjan> wob_jonas: wiktionary doesn't have that word :(
21:00:35 <oerjan> wob_jonas: does the pun involve juice twh
21:01:33 <oerjan> were any zorn's lemons or abelian grapes harmed during the production of this pun
21:02:27 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Are they wearing black and white hats, and have blue or brown eyes?
21:02:40 <FreeFull> And sometimes, one of them lies
21:02:58 <wob_jonas> FreeFull: blue or brown eyes doesn't have an uncountable version, does it?
21:03:09 <oerjan> wob_jonas: what about juice
21:03:15 <FreeFull> wob_jonas: That's what makes the interrogation exciting
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21:35:42 <zzo38> b_jonas: Can you elaborate on "Conspiracy 2 is printing the black bordered take of an un-card too"?
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22:09:17 <lambdabot> error, called at <interactive>:3:1 in interactive:Ghci1
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22:41:03 <FreeFull> @djinn (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> Maybe b
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22:52:51 <mad> anyone else think that the collatz conjecture system is probably turing complete?
22:53:19 <mad> (the collatz system is N=3*N+1 if N is odd, and N=N/2 if N is even)
22:53:19 <oerjan> i doubt it. not that particular function.
22:53:38 <mad> do you think that it's too random?
22:53:59 <oerjan> or too little structure.
22:54:16 <mad> isn't that another way of saying too random? :D
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22:55:23 <oerjan> you can have order that just doesn't build complexity.
22:55:44 <FreeFull> mad: How would you do any computation with it?
22:56:12 <Taneb> mad, I'm not sure that it's random at all
22:56:13 <mad> it acts as a cellular automata in base 6?
22:56:16 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
22:56:27 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
22:56:32 <mad> like, in base 6, *3 is the same as /2
22:56:36 <oerjan> mad: it really doesn't.
22:56:42 <mad> except for what happens to the last digits
22:56:58 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function is, of course, relevant, but it's about a class of functions of which the Collatz function is a particular instance.
22:57:02 <FreeFull> mad: Instead of focusing on this
22:57:11 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions:math//s/the reals/the axiom of choice, &/
22:57:12 <FreeFull> mad: How about you construct a computer using the Star Wars cellular automaton
22:57:16 <shachaf> `slwd tanebventions: math//s/the reals/the axiom of choice, &/
22:57:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
22:57:25 <mad> so if you have a large number with tons of digits, then it's equivalent to repeated *3 for digits far from the right edge
22:57:33 <HackEgo> hodge star operator? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:57:40 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you really invent that?
22:58:03 <shachaf> Can you explain what it is?
22:58:08 <shachaf> Also can you teach me differential geometry?
22:58:09 <FreeFull> Did Taneb invent Surreal Numbers too?
22:58:11 <Taneb> I generally rely on you to remember what I invented
22:58:13 <int-e> Taneb invented one thing: Claiming other people's inventions for himself.
22:58:32 <Taneb> int-e, someone else invented that on my behalf
22:58:41 <int-e> (Oh wait, I think that has already been done before.)
22:58:52 <int-e> Taneb: sorry, I need to type faster.
22:59:01 <shachaf> int-e: Well, inventions are never named after the person who actually invented them.
23:01:04 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
23:01:40 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: math//s/the Hodge star operator, //
23:01:42 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, and histograms.
23:02:04 <shachaf> oerjan: But now Taneb won't teach me differential geometry. :-(
23:02:13 <oerjan> i'm applying the analogous rule to the wiki's language list hth
23:02:33 <oerjan> that is: if you don't create an article with information, your entry will eventually be deleted.
23:02:43 <HackEgo> Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
23:02:56 <HackEgo> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
23:03:08 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
23:03:37 <HackEgo> the axiom of choice? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:03:50 <shachaf> But everyone knows what the axiom of choice is.
23:05:31 <int-e> . o O ( Operas are an art form featuring soap or singing, and occasionally both at the same time. )
23:05:55 <oerjan> shachaf: there are too many explanations to choose from tdnh
23:06:00 <Taneb> If you have an infinite number of ice cream parlours, each selling an infinite number of ice cream flavours, I can choose an ice cream flavours i
23:06:15 <Taneb> *ice cream flavour in each parlour
23:06:59 <oerjan> Taneb: are you really ready for such a great power
23:07:48 <int-e> I think that the axiom of choice is responsible for the phenomenon that the grass is always greener on the other side.
23:07:49 <shachaf> "every surjection is a retraction"
23:08:36 -!- boily has joined.
23:08:43 <int-e> (Mathematically: For every choice you make there is a better choice that you could've made instead.)
23:08:59 <Taneb> Every category has a skeleton
23:09:02 <int-e> Is that wisdomy enough?
23:09:14 <int-e> Taneb: in its closet?
23:09:24 <boily> int-ello, Tanelle.
23:09:33 <shachaf> int-e: What does that mean? Something about upper bounds?
23:09:42 <oerjan> more compact: "a product of compact spaces is compact" hth
23:09:49 <int-e> shachaf: I'm applying logic to real life.
23:09:53 <Taneb> int-e, perhaps, but not necessarily
23:10:21 <shachaf> oerjan: you took the bait hth
23:10:51 <shachaf> But apparently you hid the swatter first.
23:11:16 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:11:22 <oerjan> you'll just have to borrow the mapole hth
23:11:53 <shachaf> boily: How many mapoles are there in the world?
23:12:07 <oerjan> every category is closet, okay
23:13:18 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
23:13:19 <boily> hellochaf. as many as there are meese hth
23:13:42 <boily> who needs a mapoling now?
23:13:43 <shachaf> Taneb knows the kings of England and he quotes the fights historical / From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical
23:14:11 <oerjan> a major general mapoling is in order
23:14:43 <Taneb> I can only get back to Edward V in the kings of England
23:15:01 <shachaf> before Edward V came Edward IV hth
23:15:21 <int-e> Taneb may be afraid of skipping kings.
23:15:30 * boily kickstarts his Patented Motorized Powerful Mapole Projection Machine. *VBRRRRRRRRRR*
23:15:36 <oerjan> Taneb: don't worry, i can only get back to ... um some guy named George.
23:15:56 <oerjan> or wait, he wasn't named george originally. but anyway.
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23:16:09 <Taneb> oerjan, was he one of the George's named Albert
23:16:45 <oerjan> it was a german-sounding name, anyway. which was why he had to change it.
23:16:54 <shachaf> The only king of England I know is Elizabeth.
23:17:12 <oerjan> also there was this guy called Edward, but i'm not sure if there was one in between.
23:17:37 <oerjan> and before that, another George, i think.
23:17:43 <Taneb> I thought there was but there isn't
23:17:59 <shachaf> Taneb: What's your vote for the next monarch after Elizabeth?
23:18:53 <Taneb> shachaf, Helen Mirren
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23:31:47 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
23:31:53 <int-e> fungot for president!
23:31:54 <fungot> int-e: mr president, how often do european pensioners receive their pension. that is the case now. the green paper on the use of child labour.
23:32:33 <int-e> never thought about that, actually
23:32:35 <shachaf> fungot for monarch butterfly
23:32:36 <fungot> shachaf: mr president, i have two minor comments. firstly, one sometimes had the impression over recent months: first that, in a restaurant in a place where we can set down guidelines which will help to take us into uncharted territory. finally, at diplomatic level, mr prodi, i want to make something of it.
23:32:38 <int-e> fungot: do you have a gender?
23:32:39 <fungot> int-e: the discussion about the definition of indirect discrimination. i think that when it comes to facilitating trade and business, requires that parliament be there to assist the commission in this area, and in particular mr titley have said so far that the declaration of the 12th and then maybe he will understand why we in the commission this morning, before i go into the context of the new member states in this area should
23:32:57 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *sex*
23:33:03 <HackEgo> Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on the author's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
23:34:32 <HackEgo> tswett oerjan oerjan tswett
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23:35:22 <int-e> @google "a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s"
23:35:28 <lambdabot> http://codu.org/logs/raw/2015-06-18-raw.txt
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00:00:21 <hppavilion[1]> If a magic space beam were to hit earth and flip everybody's gender
00:00:57 <hppavilion[1]> Would trans people be happy about it, or would they stay trans but have their identity flipped too?
00:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> (so a trans woman now has the body of a woman but identifies as a man)
00:02:01 <hppavilion[1]> Really, it's a question of whether the aliens that did this for whatever reason thought to flip identity too (so whether men still think of themselves as men, but are physical women)
00:03:02 <hppavilion[1]> Or if they made it set your identity to match your appearance (so men (who have become women) identify as women, women identify as men, trans women (who become women) identify as women (score), and trans men become men (and identify as such))
00:04:32 <prooftechnique> I assume people would have other things to worry about, like who's bombarding the planet with philosophical quandaries
00:09:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
00:09:41 <ais523> I run my own mailserver, and recently gmail started bouncing messages from it for a vaguely explained reason
00:10:04 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: This is a question based on questions of both what the beam is *doing*, as well as as-yet open questions of what the physical and psychological bases of "being trans" *are*...
00:10:15 <ais523> so I started adding email auth features
00:10:40 <ais523> currently I'm messing around with dmarc, which asks mailservers who receive forged messages claiming to be from you to send you statistics about them
00:10:50 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Let's assume that identity is completely disjointed from (but still correlated with) physical gender
00:10:56 <ais523> (as a method of determining what impact adding more anti-forgery protections would have)
00:11:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Is your personal mailserver running a software I've heard of?
00:11:44 <ais523> I just got my first report today; I reported a bug in Ubuntu, and it sent email about it with my email address forged as the from address
00:11:51 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it runs a ton of software
00:11:59 <ais523> some of it you've probably heard of, like postfix
00:12:50 <ais523> @tell oerjan we could simply make 9 permit anon editing and add a separate anti-anon filter; better would be to disable anon editing in the settings
00:12:54 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Shit gets complicated, because physical sex is not just one phenotype that you can flip, and for some trans people that may well be super obvious and relevant.
00:12:57 <ais523> (or find some way to allow anons to edit in less spamy times)
00:13:12 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: a bunch of different programs are involved in saving and receiving emails
00:13:24 <zzo38> I have heard of Postfix; I use Exim since it has the features I require.
00:13:43 <hppavilion[1]> (Hm, hermaphrodit...edness is a matter of your body developing incorrectly (or awesomely, if that's what the reader is into), not anything genetic, right?)
00:14:01 <ais523> zzo38: which featuers do you use that postfix doesn't have?
00:14:18 <zzo38> I use Heirloom-Mailx as the front-end; it has the built-in ability to forge a from address easily (another feature I need, due to the way I have aliases set up)
00:14:47 <ais523> zzo38: most mail clients can forge a from address easily
00:14:56 <pikhq> There are some cases of being intersex that can be directly triggered genetically. Hell, there's even weird cases where you can end up with an unambiguously "normal" male or female phenotype without a normally matching genotype.
00:14:59 <ais523> not sure how many mail submission programs will forge a bounce (MailFrom) address
00:15:29 <zzo38> ais523: The way I have aliases set up is one of them. I don't know if Postfix can do that, but when looking at the possibilities I have found that Exim does support it so I used that.
00:16:19 <zzo38> (I have set it up so that it only receives messages send to aliases; not messages sent to UNIX usernames.)
00:16:51 <pikhq> You can have XX cis men and XY cis women. Both of these are *really* rare, but well-documented phenomena.
00:17:05 <ais523> pikhq: chimerism, perhaps?
00:17:08 <zzo38> pikhq: O, I did not know such thing would be possible
00:17:52 <zzo38> (You actually can send to a UNIX username if you connect directly to my SMTP server and do not use the local domain name instead of the internet domain name, but you shouldn't need to do that.)
00:18:10 <pikhq> ais523: No, in the XX case the father's gametes had a recombination with the X and Y chromosomes and the SRY gene landed on the X; for XY, SRY gets mutated or deleted such that it doesn't work.
00:18:50 <pikhq> And SRY is the major gene that triggers the masculinization of a fetus.
00:19:11 <mad> any cases of intersex that are fertile?
00:19:13 <zzo38> Can such people have children? If so, how are their children affected?
00:19:15 <ais523> so I guess the next mystery is, why canonical.com does not have an SPF record set up
00:19:33 <pikhq> (though, with the XY case *some* of the other genes doing that may still be around, so you get an incompletely masculinized human instead)
00:19:38 <zzo38> What does a SPF record mean?
00:20:39 <ais523> zzo38: it's something that you put in your DNS for a domain, that sets out the conditions on which an email connection with a HELO or MAIL FROM on that domain is legitimate
00:20:56 <pikhq> mad: To my knowledge, not all mechanisms result in infertility, but many of them do.
00:21:00 <ais523> (i.e. actually comes from that domain)
00:21:39 <ais523> one common one is to state "an email will only legitimately have this domain in its MAIL FROM or HELO if the connection is being made from the IP in the domain's A record"
00:21:47 <pikhq> The major relevant question here is if the ovaries or testicles are able to correctly form, and if so, if they're able to produce functioning gametes.
00:22:21 <ais523> the idea is so that you can authenticate the server that relays the message as actually being the server that relays the message, rather than a fake
00:22:41 <zzo38> In my case I am actually sending from the domain that the MAIL FROM is, but then the ISP will forward the message to the correct SMTP server, so it will also be legitimate if the ISP is forwarding it for me.
00:22:59 <mad> pikhq : In what kind of case are the gametes functional?
00:23:00 <pikhq> Basically, biology is stupidly complicated.
00:23:03 <ais523> it's very easy to set up and makes anti-spamming technologies work much more effectively as it allows them to gain trust in a relay
00:23:13 <ais523> zzo38: well SPF is entirely about HELO and MAIL FROM, it says nothing about the From: line
00:23:23 <ais523> and an ISP relay will change the MAIL FROM I think?
00:23:54 <zzo38> I don't know if the ISP will change the MAIL FROM to its own address.
00:25:37 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, my mail logs show the HELO but not the MAIL FROM
00:25:43 <ais523> so I could see if it changes the HELO, at least
00:25:48 <ais523> let me try to see if I can turn on logging for MAIL FROM too
00:26:53 <zzo38> Sending the message first to ISP to have them forward it to the correct server is known as "smarthost" in the Exim configuration. (If I send a message directly to an external SMTP server, I normally get an error message that says that it is "graylisted", so I don't do that.)
00:27:05 <oerjan> ais523: that will work for anonymous ip, although i thought it might also be good to a separate error message if they do post logged in to the right page, but get the format wrong
00:27:22 <ais523> oerjan: then you can use two separate filters for the purpose
00:27:23 <oerjan> i suppose it remains to be seen if anyone actually has trouble with that.
00:28:22 <pikhq> mad: It Depends. One example is persistant Müllerian duct syndrome, where normal male sexual development happens, *but* the sexual organs which develop from the Müllerian duct (fallopian tubes, uterus, internal portions of the vagina) also end up developing.
00:29:21 <ais523> zzo38: so there are two ports on which emails are sent, 25 and 587
00:29:31 <pikhq> This can cause infertility if that ends up effecting development, but it doesn't necessarily.
00:29:48 <ais523> a message sent on 587 is assumed to be from an email sending user to a server, that typically requires authentication
00:29:59 <ais523> 25 is used for relays between servers
00:30:16 <ais523> (i.e. you use 587 when sending an email to your own mailserver, then your mailserver uses 25 to send to the recipient's mailserver)
00:30:29 <ais523> now, spambots normally pretend to be a mailserver, so they make a bunch of port 25 connections
00:30:40 <zzo38> I am sending to port 25 on the ISP, although that server is not accessible from outside of the ISP's network.
00:30:51 <pikhq> ais523: I assume most things relaying on port 25 try STARTTLS?
00:30:54 <ais523> but one of the jobs of a mailserver is to retry if there's a temporary error
00:31:08 <ais523> pikhq: quite probably; 587 is also plaintext + STARTTLS
00:31:26 <myname> so... i need ideas for stuff to add to pixel dungeon
00:31:29 <ais523> anyway, if an email server receives a connection on port 25 from somewhere it's never heard of
00:31:40 <ais523> it normally simulates a few errors first to see if the other side reacts like a mailserver would
00:31:48 <zzo38> (Although there is also a port 587 server for use if someone wants to send from the ISP's mail but is connecting from a cellular network or something else)
00:31:51 <ais523> many spambots don't bother reacting to them properly because it would slow their spamming down
00:31:54 <ais523> that's called greylisting
00:32:14 <ais523> myname: you're in charge of pixel dungeon?
00:32:35 <myname> i just thought if everybody forks it, i might as well do it
00:33:03 <ais523> zzo38: older mail clients use 25 for submission rather than 587, so most ISPs will treat 25 like 587 if the message comes with appropriate auth (in this case, from being sent from inside their subnet)
00:33:14 <myname> i buffed the blacksmith so far
00:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> (I wonder if there's a way to disable capslock entirely...)
00:34:09 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I rebound my capslock to Compose
00:34:20 <ais523> a while back I rebound shift-shift to capslock, so I'd still have an easy way to type in allcaps
00:34:21 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: If you can change that keybinding then yes
00:34:24 <ais523> but it doesn't come up that often
00:34:31 <myname> you can now foege weapon/armor + potion to give it an enchantment or inscription you desire
00:34:32 <ais523> and the shift-shift binding stopped working at some point
00:34:53 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I can change keybindings, but I think the official Microsoft keybinding maker doesn't let you rebind capslock
00:35:08 <hppavilion[1]> (you can only rebind character keys- letters, punctuation, symbols, numbers)
00:35:29 <hppavilion[1]> Enter/shift/ctrl/alt/caps/tab are all unrebindable
00:35:38 <myname> you also can dio weapons into potions now
00:35:40 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, I have seen the keyboard layout making program for Windows and it does not allow rebinding capslock; many other keys also can't be rebound, including all number pad keys except for the . key
00:36:12 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I don't know if it's because Windows doesn't let you change those or because Microsoft thinks you shouldn't
00:36:32 <zzo38> But now I use Linux which you can rebind everything (at least in X, I think)
00:37:23 <hppavilion[1]> (I hate the manufacturer mentality of "a normal user probably won't want to do this thing that is potentially useful, so we can just make it impossible to ever do it no matter how smart you are without switching software or rewriting part of the OS")
00:38:34 <zzo38> I also hate that stuff
00:39:08 <zzo38> That is one thing why FOSS is better, and why UNIX is better.
00:39:16 <mad> is there a limit on what you can do with combinating accents on win32?
00:41:45 <mad> I think the win32 keyboard stuff is for doing all the italian/croatian/thai/etc keyboards, not doing fancy stuff like mapping ctrl to tab and tab to caps
00:43:22 <prooftechnique> I've had caps bound to Esc/Ctrl for as long as I can remember
00:44:28 <prooftechnique> Then again, I also don't mess about with keymaps, I just reprogram my keyboard.
00:45:05 <mad> yeah ok if you want to emulate the space cadet lisp machine keyboard in windows, you'll be disappointed yet
00:46:00 <ais523> prooftechnique: how often do you change between Esc and Ctrl?
00:46:21 * ais523 has a vision of a key in caps lock position that does ctrl if you hold it while pressing another key, and esc if you tap it
00:46:40 <mad> how often is Esc used these days?
00:47:02 <mad> It used to be used a ton but I think it's mostly out of use now
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00:47:55 <prooftechnique> ais523: I guess technically it's not really a Caps Lock, it's just a key that I programmed to do that which is coincidentally in the same spot.
00:48:18 <prooftechnique> But, I have used software on occasion to get the same effect on built-in boards
00:48:25 <ais523> mad: the joke is that you bind caps lock to ctrl if you use emacs and esc if you use vim
00:48:40 <ais523> prooftechnique: almost all keyboards have "caps lock" printed on that key though
00:48:58 <ais523> because although many #esoteric denizens are the sort to rebind keyboards, fewer of them change the physical keycaps
00:48:59 <zzo38> I normally just use Ctrl+[ for escape in vim though
00:49:14 <ais523> my computer from my last job had an azerty keyboard
00:49:23 <ais523> sometimes it was set to English layout, sometimes to French layout
00:49:29 <prooftechnique> True, but how often do you pay attention to Caps Lock? :D
00:49:39 <ais523> I think mostly I just typed in English but with French keycaps
00:49:39 <mad> azerty is crazy
00:49:52 <prooftechnique> I just think of it as a more convenient Ctrl, and now I get weirded out when I use other people's computers
00:50:02 <mad> shift to type numbers? wut?
00:50:58 <ais523> I seem to remember using a computer that had both caps lock and shift lock
00:51:00 <pikhq> For me, an AZERTY keyboard would drive me crazy, even set to an English layout.
00:51:06 <ais523> I'm not sure why you'd use a shift lock
00:51:32 <ais523> one annoying thing is that with caps lock on, holding shift didn't let you type in lowercase
00:51:44 <ais523> which was annoying because I was using a programming language which required all keywords to be uppercase
00:51:49 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of dressing baby boys in one color and girls in another
00:51:56 <ais523> (this mostly just lead to everything being uppercase as mixing case was too tedious)
00:52:01 <pikhq> But I'm used to not just a QWERTY keyboard, I'm used to ANSI mechanical layout QWERTY keyboards.
00:52:05 <prooftechnique> mad: If you think shift to type numbers is weird, that's my layout above
00:52:24 <pikhq> While that AZERTY keyboard, just like a standard UK QWERTY keyboard, would be an ISO mechanical layout keyboard.
00:52:47 <ais523> prooftechnique: red on grey makes it quite hard to read, and reverse video doesn't help
00:52:57 <prooftechnique> hppavilion[1]: Or we could stop ascribing meaning to random colors
00:53:23 <mad> pikhq : is that the one with the straight enter key rather than the flipped L shape?
00:53:35 <ais523> also how do you get at the alternative combinations? holding modifier keys, or are there seven keyboards next to each other?
00:53:35 <prooftechnique> ais523: I might have a link to the layout editor. Hang on
00:53:40 <pikhq> mad: Yes, that's the ANSI layout.
00:54:02 <prooftechnique> ais523: The red keys are held down to get to specific layers, and some of them are modal
00:54:33 <prooftechnique> The layout on the top right is a "dead" layer. I hit what's basically comma to get to numbers and special symbols
00:54:46 <prooftechnique> And the qwerty and steno layouts have their own switches
00:55:13 <prooftechnique> ais523: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/2b875f7d5d76fe4408c0a5b3bd76ddae
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00:57:08 <prooftechnique> http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@_backcolor=%23292727&name=Workman%20Dead%20Planck%20with%20KWM%20and%20Plover&author=Jack%20Henahan&switchMount=cherry&pcb:true%3B&@_c=%23ffffff&a:7%3B&=Tab&=Q&=D&=R&=W&=B&=J&=F&=U&=P&=%2F%3B&=Back%20space&_x:0.5%3B&=&=%25&=%2F&&=%3F&=+&=%2F@&=$&=%2F_&=%5B&=%5D&=!&=%3B&@=Esc&=A&=S&=H&=T&=G&=Y&=N&=E&=O&=I&='&_x:0.5%3B&=&=%2F%2F&=(&=%2F=&=0&=%7B&=%7D&=1&=*&=)
00:57:14 <prooftechnique> &=-&='%3B&@=Shift&=Z&=X&=M&=C&=V&=K&=L&=Dead&=.&=%2F%2F&=Enter&_x:0.5%3B&=&=6&=7&=8&=9&=%7C&=%5C&=2&=3&=4&=5&=%3B&@=Ctrl&=RAlt&=LAlt&=⌘&=Fn&=&=&=KWM&=%2F&larr%2F%3B&=%2F&darr%2F%3B&=%2F&uarr%2F%3B&=%2F&rarr%2F%3B&_x:0.5%3B&=&=&=%3C&=~&=%60&=,&=,&=%23&=%5E&=%3E&=&=%3B&@_y:0.5%3B&=~&=!&=%2F@&=%23&=$&=%25&=%5E&=%2F&&=*&=(&=)&=Back%20space&_x:0.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=Back%20space%3
00:57:20 <prooftechnique> B&@=Del&=F1&=F2&=F3&=F4&=F5&=F6&=%2F_&=+&=%7B&=%7D&=%7C&_x:0.5%3B&=Esc&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F%3B&='%3B&@=Shift&=F7&=F8&=F9&=F10&=F11&=F12&=%7C&=±&=.&=Vol+&=Enter&_x:0.5%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=,&=.&=%2F%2F&=Enter%3B&@=Ctrl&=RAlt&=LAlt&=⌘&_c=%23b05858%3B&=Fn&_c=%23ffffff%3B&=&=&=Adjust&=⏮&=⏭&=Vol-&=⏯&_x:0.5%3B&=Ctrl&=RAlt&=LAlt&=⌘&=Fn&=&=&=KWM&=%2F&larr%2F%3B&=%2F&darr%2
00:57:26 <prooftechnique> F%3B&=%2F&uarr%2F%3B&=%2F&rarr%2F%3B%3B&@_y:0.5&f:2%3B&=Reset%20KWM&=&=Toggle%20Split&=Float&=Fill%20Cont-ainer&=Full%20Screen&=Insert%20Marked&=Insert%20West&=Insert%20South&=Insert%20North&=Insert%20East&=&_x:0.5&f:3%3B&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23&=%23%3B&@_f:2%3B&=&=Mark&=Rotate&=Prefix&=Term&=BSP&=Swap%20Marked&=Swap%20West&=Swap%20South&=Swap%20North&=Swap%20East&=&
00:57:32 <prooftechnique> _x:0.5&f:3%3B&=&=S&=T&=P&=H&=*&=*&=F&=P&=L&=T&=D%3B&@_f:2%3B&=Shift&=Mark%20West&=Mark%20South&=Mark%20North&=Mark%20East&=Mon-ocle&=Float&=Focus%20West&=Focus%20South&=Focus%20North&=Focus%20East&=Enter&_x:0.5&f:3%3B&=&=S&=K&=W&=R&=*&=*&=R&=B&=G&=S&=Z%3B&@_f:2%3B&=Ctrl&=RAlt&=LAlt&=⌘&=Adjust&=&=&_c=%23b05858%3B&=KWM&_c=%23ffffff%3B&=%2F&larr%2F%3B&=%2F&darr%2F%3B&=%2F&uarr%2F%3B&=%2F&rarr%2F%3B
00:57:38 <prooftechnique> &_x:0.5&f:3%3B&=Exit%20Plover&=&=&=A&=O&=&=&=E&=U&=&=&=%3B&@_y:0.5&x:6.25&f:2%3B&=&=DFU%20Mode&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=Del%3B&@_x:6.25%3B&=&=&=&=Audio%20On&=Audio%20Off&=OS%20X%20Keys&=Win%20Keys&=QWER-TY&=Work-man%20Dead&=Plover&=&=%3B&@_x:6.25%3B&=&=Voice-&=Voice+&=Music%20On&=Music%20Off&=MIDI%20On&=MIDI%20Off&=&=&=&=&=%3B&@_x:6.25%3B&=&=&=&=&_c=%23b05858%3B&=Adjust&_c=%23ffffff%3B&=&=&_c=%23b05858%
00:57:52 <prooftechnique> https://gist.github.com/jhenahan/ef372d1b77b2214ba645a7d324609bdf
00:57:53 <ais523> oh, you've stopped fakelagging
00:58:00 <ais523> I was just starting to type the commands to kick you
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00:58:16 <ais523> (not as a punishment, it's just the typical way to handle people with out-of-control clients)
00:58:38 <prooftechnique> Had no idea it was going to give me that mess instead of a nice gist URL :/
00:59:19 <ais523> I'm actually fairly impressed that it managed to wordwrap it
00:59:50 <ais523> most clients would have given up trying to fit an URL that long onto IRC long ago
01:00:17 <ais523> (I would have typed the previous sentence sooner if I hadn't spent so long trying to figure out which indefinite article "URL" uses)
01:00:20 <mad> auto split has.... some advantages
01:01:06 <prooftechnique> I should probably see about altering the splitting strategy to just give up on URLs in general
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01:26:05 <prooftechnique> I like that Andrew Topping was so reclusive as to not even have a Wikipedia page
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03:09:52 <zzo38> I have seen both kind of indefinite article "URL" uses and I think it does not matter much
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03:41:02 <zzo38> How well do you think it might work in a computer program if the text of Magic: the Gathering cards is written using RDF and then is compiled into the code needed to execute? Examples might be [:counter [:target :spell]] and [:destroy [:target [:and [:not :black], :creature]]]
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06:56:22 <izabera> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~rs/talks/QuicksortIsOptimal.pdf in the examples, are the arrays 1-indexed?
07:08:22 * pikhq is unimpressed by O(n^2) worst case behavior
07:09:15 <izabera> in his example in page 9, k is not declared
07:10:14 <pikhq> Though, it is possible to devise a variant of quicksort with O(n log n) behavior...
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07:26:31 * FreeFull is unimpressed by pdf pages being sideways
07:27:07 <FreeFull> pikhq: You can make O(nlogn) guaranteed quicksort with the right pivot choosing algorithm, but it has worse constant factors
07:27:35 <shachaf> is that even quicksort at that point? sounds more like a cheap ripoff
07:27:42 <shachaf> those people don't have all their ducks in a row
07:28:00 <pikhq> Sure, but you can also know if you're in a pathological case and switch pivot choosing algorithms appropriately. :)
07:28:32 <shachaf> actually just aiming for the pun there
07:29:03 <shachaf> you can tell i'm not serious because the sentence isn't capitalized
07:29:19 <pikhq> (I don't know if this actually performs well, I've just thought of it, not tested it)
07:30:13 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_of_medians
07:30:39 <FreeFull> You can also choose random pivots, which will hit O(n^2) behaviour if you're really, really unlucky
07:31:08 <pikhq> The thing I'm not sure of is if quicksort-and-use-median-of-medians-when-you're-in-worst-case-behavior-land is actually worth it.
07:31:16 <FreeFull> Really really unlucky would involve an adversary that knows the state of your random number generator, essentially
07:31:32 <FreeFull> pikhq: Random pivots are faster
07:31:58 <pikhq> Tempting, use a CSPRNG for qsort. :)
07:32:25 <pikhq> (*cough*arc4random or get out)
07:34:31 <pikhq> The BSD API for a CSPRNG that's nice, quick, and easy, and glibc really should have it.
07:35:22 <shachaf> There's the argument that userspace CSPRNGs are rarely justified compared to just using urandom.
07:38:01 <pikhq> There's the rather bigger argument that having CSPRNGs be hard to use means nobody uses 'em, and instead implements their own, shit implementation that often doesn't even work correctly.
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09:02:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: the new card is Spy Kit
09:02:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: and it's not really as powerful as the un-card, because the un-card works anywhere, this only on the battlefield
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09:05:14 <Taneb> b_jonas, I've got a friend planning a spy kit deck
09:06:03 <izabera> pi seconds ~ 1 nanocentury
09:07:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes I have seen that, and my question (still not answered) is, which layer does the name-changing effect apply?
09:09:14 <zzo38> (In my own collection of custom cards I have added the name-changing layer directly after the text-changing layer; I have done this far before Spy Kit card was revealed.)
09:11:44 <zzo38> The notes do not seem to answer that question, although they do answer the other questions I had (about monarch and about the new keyword actions and keyword abilities), as well as a lot of questions that I did not have because existing rules explain it clearly enough.
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09:15:12 <izabera> why does recaptcha ask me to copy and paste a random string that's valid for 2 minutes?
09:15:18 <izabera> what security does it add?
09:15:28 <izabera> bots can't copy and paste? o.O
09:17:04 <zzo38> It adds security against XSS I think?
09:21:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: which layer => we'll probably find that out from the set FAQ only. there are usually some rules questions open until that
09:22:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: my guess is that it applies later than ability changes and earlier than p/t changes, but it rarely matters.
09:26:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: Arcane Savant also needs a new rule in the comp rules, near the Leyline rules, to clarify how it works and whether you get to reapply it for each mulligan. The set FAQ will clear that up too.
09:38:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: and I'm not even sure what the Spy Kit ability means in the sense of what names it chooses, eg. whether it takes only the names of cards not banned in the current format, but it probably also doesn't matter.
09:48:48 <zzo38> I would assume meaning cards legal in the current format (which seem the most logical way to me), but I am not sure???
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09:52:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: it seems it probably doesn't matter, because Spy Kit is legal only in eternal formats (vintage, legacy, commander), and it seems there are no silver-bordered or banned creature cards for those formats whose name is a type combination or the name of a token.
09:56:43 <zzo38> But then, there can also be custom formats (which might or might not include unofficial cards, as well as other arbitrary selections of official cards)? For these reason, and also I don't like that names of implicitly named tokens can compare equal to card names, so I have written some of my own rules.
09:58:51 <zzo38> My own (unofficial) rules specify that the name of an implicitly named token is a (possibly empty) (unordered) set of subtypes, rather than a "canonical name" which is the name of a card or explicitly named token.
09:59:01 <zzo38> To me, these rule seem more sense mathematically.
09:59:44 <zzo38> (So the possibility that a card name and subtype may be spelled the same way in English is irrelevant.)
09:59:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: about named tokens, if I have a Llanowar Mentor in play and artificially evolve it to replace Elf to Viashino in its text, then what token will it put into play? do you dislike that kind of named token too?
10:00:50 <zzo38> It is still named Llanowar Elves, since that is an explicit name and not a subtype.
10:01:04 <zzo38> However, the subtype of the token will now be Viashino Druid.
10:01:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, and the Mentor itself will also be a Viashino Spellshaper
10:03:24 <zzo38> (And the token will have the same name as the card "Llanowar Elves". I believe all of these things are the same both in official and unofficial rules though, anyways.)
10:04:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure how it works officially. artificial evolution still has to act on plurals like "Elves" so as to work on cards like Wirewood Pride correctly
10:05:11 <b_jonas> but it probably still doesn't act on the "named Llanowar Elves" part
10:05:55 <zzo38> I think that the word "Elves" in the text there is still not a subtype so it still doesn't act on it. But, if it says "Elves" where it is the plural of a subtype, then I would think it is still the same word; the way you write it in any language should be irrelevant.
10:07:42 <b_jonas> sure, but in the official rules how the card name is written in English still matters for cards like Giant Slug or Viashino Skeleton or Elder Druid, sadly
10:08:17 <zzo38> Yes, and that is too bad it is why I made better rules for unofficial. Hopefully they can fix the official rules too
10:08:28 <b_jonas> let me check what your exact fix is
10:09:59 <zzo38> It is exactly what I wrote above, although I give more examples in my file
10:12:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: if I understand right, then in your rules, (1) tokens that are given a name only implicitly from its subtype has a name that never compares equal to a name that's given explicitly or copied from a card name; and text-changing effects like Artificial Evolution don't change card names, whether they're on the card name line or mentioned in the rule text as a card name. is that right?
10:13:22 <zzo38> Yes, although with my rule also Artificial Evolution does change subtypes listed on the card name line (although only tokens can ever have subtypes on the card name line).
10:15:01 <zzo38> Also, if a name is the empty set of subtypes, that is not the same as having no name at all.
10:15:29 <b_jonas> can you ever have a name that's the empty set of subtypes?
10:15:33 <b_jonas> I don't think that's ever possible
10:16:13 <zzo38> I don't know if with official cards, but with unofficial cards it seem that it clearly should be.
10:19:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: and also, both in the official rules and your rules, if you change color words (eg. with Spectral Shift or Sleight of Mind), that doesn't change color words that happen to be in a card name (whether it's on a name line or rules text)
10:20:33 <zzo38> Yes, that part is the same, too.
10:21:44 <zzo38> I have updated my file to write the rule better, since it previously did not actually explain much.
10:22:52 <b_jonas> I wonder if there's a named counter that has a name that has a subtype or color word in it, but probably no.
10:24:00 <zzo38> I don't think so, but even if it is, it is not a subtype word or color word, I think.
10:26:44 <b_jonas> It's hard to get a name of all named counters, with "counter" meaning two things
10:27:40 <zzo38> I did find a list once somewhere, although I think they ought to add it to the Comprehensive Rules too for reference
10:31:46 <zzo38> Do you like my variant rule for implicit names of tokens? Do you know who else like it or hate it?
10:34:06 <b_jonas> oh, there's "mine counter" technically, and "Mine" is a land type, but that doesn't come up in rules problems, because the text-changing effects only work with basic-land-types, and the cards like Shimmer and Traveler's Cloak don't interact with the counter name in any way.
10:34:27 <b_jonas> Vision Charm lets you change text from land types
10:34:38 <zzo38> But if "mine counter" isn't capitalized anyways, then it doesn't suggest a subtype.
10:35:37 <b_jonas> so Vision Charm doesn't let me change Mine Layer to use swamp counters instead of mine counters
10:42:58 <zzo38> I did make the unofficial card to change counter names in text. You can't change "+1/+1 counter" into anything else, but you can change "experience counter" into "poison counter".
10:44:49 <b_jonas> ah, http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Counter_(marker)/List_of_Counters might be useful
10:47:13 <zzo38> Yes that is what I have seen before.
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10:51:34 * b_jonas checks the lists -- "Orgg", what the heck is that? apparently some crazy old goblins. maybe it's what they call the Uruk-Hai.
10:53:12 <b_jonas> "Pest" -- apparently a card from Mirrodin makes Pest tokens
10:55:17 <int-e> huh. 0/1... I guess they can grow by other effects and become more than a nuisance
10:56:25 <b_jonas> int-e: there are also Prism creature tokens from an old card, Reflection creature tokens from two old cards
10:57:09 <b_jonas> and of course the famous Sand creature tokens
10:57:51 <b_jonas> actually two cards put Sand creature tokens into play
11:00:25 <b_jonas> Ok, now for the counter list. There are gold counters (and tokens *named* Gold, which is irrelevant), currency counters, and credit counters. (Also arrow counters and arrowhead counters.)
11:03:44 <b_jonas> There are devotion counters and echo counters which have no relation to those keywords. There are level counters and experience counters, and they're not the same.
11:04:06 <b_jonas> There are fungus counter and different Fungus creatures
11:04:38 <int-e> . o O ( exparation counters )
11:07:10 <b_jonas> Some of the Fungus creatures have Thallid or Pallid or Thelon in their name, they use spore counters to produce Saprolings. Whereas some Fungus creatures and an instant have Spor- in their name and put fungus counters on a permanent. Not confusing at all.
11:09:12 <b_jonas> (Oh well, it's not really much worse than some of the strangely named recently printed cards.)
11:09:36 <b_jonas> Some of these counters have strange names.
11:10:29 <b_jonas> Ah, there are fate counters and omen counters.
11:10:47 <b_jonas> petrification counters and paralyzation counters.
11:13:16 <b_jonas> there are infection counters, poison counters, plague counters, but also healing counters and vitality counters. tide counters (Homarid) and time counters.
11:14:19 <b_jonas> age counters for cumulative upkeep, time counters for suspend and vanishing, fade counters for fading.
11:16:04 <zzo38> That allow you to see some of the thing that can be interacted with by my "Aether Hack" card.
11:16:21 <zzo38> As well as what cards might interact even without that.
11:18:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, how does Aether Hack interact with leveling cards? I don't recall how those work.
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11:58:57 <zzo38> No effect, since the text of the card does not say "level counter".
11:59:32 <zzo38> (However, it can affect other cards to cause them to place level counters on the leveler card.)
12:05:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: Ok. So the text-changing effects don't see inside the definitions of the level up keyword (or the fear keyword)? So the keyword abilities "represent" abilities (whatever that means), don't put on text, even if the ability represented by level up is an activated ability that can be stolen by an Experiment Kraj, right?
12:07:36 <zzo38> Level up is an activated ability, so I would think so.
12:09:26 <b_jonas> What I'd like to say is that when the rules say that a keyword ability (possibly parametrized) represents a set of abilities, that probably means that the keyword ability adds those other abilities to the card, but that happens in the layer for abilities, not the layer for text change, so those other abilities aren't part of the card text and aren't affected by text-changing abilities, right?
12:11:47 <zzo38> Yes those other abilities aren't part of the card text I believe, but I am not sure about the layers
12:17:11 <b_jonas> Whereas there are still a LOT of things that act on text level or below: at the copy layer: (creating a token, creating copy of spell, permanent becoming a copy of or entering tb as a copy of something, Primal, planeswalker's extra ability, morph and other face-down, double-faced, meld, flip, split and fuse), at text layer: (change word in text abilities, splice onto, entwine, overload),
12:17:17 <b_jonas> and there's probably more I forgot about.
12:17:32 <b_jonas> It's complicated and I don't understand all the interactions.
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12:21:03 <zzo38> I am guessing that if a keyword represents two abilities, then that text causes it to have those two abilities instead of just one ability.
12:22:14 <zzo38> Text is not a continuous effect so the layer system does not apply, I think.
12:23:18 <b_jonas> the comp rules also say that "Level up is an activated ability." so maybe the Kraj or Quicksilver Elemental actually steals the level up itself too?
12:23:44 <b_jonas> for something like level up it doesn't matter if something ends up having two copies
12:23:56 <zzo38> It takes the level up ability, but the level counters do nothing for Kraj
12:25:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: forget the kraj then, just have something temporarily cytoshaped to a Quicksilver Elemental, make it steal all activated abilities that way, then let the cytoshape time out, the stolen ability stays
12:25:31 <b_jonas> I just assume that any permanent can have any activated ability stolen on it
12:26:30 <b_jonas> and I wonder how that interacts with keywords that are activated abilities or represent an activated ability (and possibly other abilities)
12:26:54 <b_jonas> let me see if there's an ugly case
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12:30:13 <b_jonas> It can steal an "equip {1}" ability from a sword onto a knight that's not an equipment or aura or forti, and I think then you can attach the knight to an elephant you control but the attachment doesn't do anything until the knight becomes the copy of something later.
12:30:23 <b_jonas> that's not really what I'm after though
12:32:02 <zzo38> You can activate the ability but since it is not Equipment or Aura, it doesn't do anything, unless it somehow becomes such a thing before it resolves.
12:32:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: what, why? is there anything that says that only equipments or auras can be attached?
12:32:49 <b_jonas> I thought the rules only say that creature auras can't be attached, and the same about creature equipment and creature forti.
12:33:36 <zzo38> Yes, only Aura, Equipment, Fortification can be attached to anything, and only if it is not also a creature (although I don't like this latter part and made a rule variant that discards it).
12:34:27 <zzo38> Rule 701.3b says (in part): If an effect tries to attach an object that isn't an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification to another object or player, the effect does nothing and the first object doesn't move.
12:34:59 <b_jonas> ok, then you can only attach those
12:36:13 <b_jonas> can a permanent remain attached to something even when that permanent is no longer an aura or equipment or forti?
12:37:46 <zzo38> It becomes unattached as a state-based action (rule 704.5q).
12:38:25 <b_jonas> ok, that should cover all the holes
12:40:02 <b_jonas> And I don't think there's any keyword ability where it causes any problem with stealing all activated abilities, because there are very few keyword abilities that create activated abilities that work from the battlefield.
12:57:12 <zzo38> Possibly with some help, I may be able to form custom card sets, that may have some of the new rules, new keywords (abilities/actions), new subtypes, new cards (including ones I haven't yet listed in my file), and/or reprints.
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15:04:32 <b_jonas> I should learn how to use greasemonkey or something like that
15:05:04 <myname> easy, userscripts.org, look stuff up, change parts of code
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15:08:25 <oerjan> the new filter is eerily effective, but disturbingly it's the only one matching any of the spam.
15:24:06 <b_jonas> prooftechnique: wait, you have a keyboard layout that involves that classic stenography thing layout as one of the shift states? that looks crazy
15:24:17 * b_jonas is reading the scrollback of #esoteric... weird
15:25:27 <oerjan> @tell ais523 after pondering why rule 3 didn't catch one of the spams, i've concluded it actually checks for at least _two_ links hth. (also one of DatCodingGuy's edits would have got caught if it only checked for one.)
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15:26:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Oerjan * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/3]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/3/diff/prev/53]])
15:33:27 <oerjan> today's long log just disappeared in a puff of magic(TG)
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15:49:58 <int-e> hmm, seems good enough
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15:52:09 <int-e> wait, why is my academic account getting metaspam?
15:52:24 <int-e> "Would you be interested in *Bentley Systems Users List* for your sales and marketing campaigns?"
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15:53:03 <int-e> (where in this instance, "metaspam" is spam that sells addresses to spam... physically, it appears)
15:53:36 <oerjan> it's because you're such an enterprising guy
15:54:09 <int-e> Am I now... why am I always the last person to learn about these things.
15:54:33 <int-e> I should turn lambdabot into a profitable business
15:54:40 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
15:54:57 <oerjan> maybe you could add a dow jones plugin
15:55:56 <int-e> ("all four letter acronyms look the same to me"... wasn't there an xkcd with approximately that title?)
15:57:10 <b_jonas> int-e: wasn't that all series of seven?
15:58:08 <int-e> b_jonas: ah, you're good!
15:58:30 <int-e> Yes, that's what I meant.
15:58:39 <oerjan> however, https://xkcd.com/1460/ is relevant to this channel.
16:00:37 * oerjan goes to explainxkcd for two of those
16:00:39 <int-e> has randall ever turned up here?
16:01:24 <lambdabot> LOWI 231450Z 08004KT 030V150 9999 FEW070 26/13 Q1026 NOSIG
16:01:31 <b_jonas> int-e: not on #esoteric I believe, but I think he was on irc at some point... or not? I dunno
16:01:43 <int-e> (surprisingly pleasant... I guess it's the low humidity)
16:03:01 <lambdabot> ENVA 231450Z 26004KT 9999 BKN035 16/10 Q1025 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 31003KT
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16:16:19 <quintopia> i dont think i ever realized until looking at that just now that smfw is "see my face when"
16:22:35 <int-e> hmm I wonder how many PhD theses will arise out of the The DAO debacle and subsequent Ethereum fork... this must be fascinating to study in detail.
16:23:50 <int-e> (from an economic and sociological perspective; technically I think it's comparatively boring, though apparently since the two chains are quite similar there are now replay attacks using transactions intended on one chain on the other)
16:28:02 <izabera> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~doug/aqsort.c 3. Partitioning is a contiguous phase of n-O(1) comparisons, all against the same pivot value.
16:28:09 <izabera> what does this requirement mean?
16:30:00 <int-e> that you select a single pivot to partition the list into two parts, rather than, say, pick 4 pivots to partition the list into 4 parts in a single pass. (that would not be very quicksort-ish)
16:30:59 <int-e> Or perhaps one could dynamically change the pivot while partitioning (keeping track of the minimum of the larger part and the maximum of the lower part along with the currently selected pivot)
16:37:55 <b_jonas> wow. Conspiracy: Take the Crown is not even in http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/products/card-set-archive . They usually put sets there much before they're released.
16:38:09 <izabera> int-e: how would that book keeping help?
16:38:34 <b_jonas> I was wrong. zzo38: release notes (setfaq) for Conspiracy 2 is out: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/conspiracy-take-crown-release-notes-2016-08-22
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16:40:23 <int-e> izabera: it would help defeat awsort because it assumes that there are long runs of comparisons involving the same key
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16:59:17 <zzo38> Retro chess problem, to figure out the last few moves: 2QRNbqr/pk1pBppp/RppKp3/P2N4/8/7P/2P1P1P1/5B2
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17:06:41 <Lymia> <int-e> (from an economic and sociological perspective; technically I think it's comparatively boring, though apparently since the two chains are quite similar there are now replay attacks using transactions intended on one chain on the other)
17:06:45 <Lymia> If you were intentionally forking
17:07:01 <Lymia> Couldn't you make the fork have a different hash algorithm or something?
17:07:16 <Lymia> (Or otherwise make it different enough)
17:09:54 <Lymia> I wonder if we could have a different "style" of BFJoust hills?
17:10:27 <Lymia> Monthly tournaments where competitors may be secretly submitted, and are revealed only at the end when the whole tournament is crunched.
17:10:54 <Lymia> This defuses Kiseki and similar nonsense.
17:11:38 <int-e> Lymia: you could and they didn't
17:12:16 <int-e> ref: http://www.coindesk.com/rise-replay-attacks-ethereum-divide/
17:12:48 <quintopia> meh kiseki is not actually a real problem. the problem is when you run your program enough times to push everything else off the hill, which is a jerk move
17:14:02 <Lymia> One instance of the proof of concept, then normal programs?
17:14:13 <Lymia> The scoring algorithm does converge onto 100-0 for everything else if something maintains a 100% win rate.
17:14:15 <Lymia> So... there's that.
17:14:32 <quintopia> but i do think it would be neat to have a micro hill. one that you tweet at, and the entire program is contained in the tweet
17:15:31 <quintopia> Lymia: one of the scoring algorithms does. its an issue i brought up when proposing it.
17:15:47 <quintopia> but there are others selectable from the scores page
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17:43:58 <b_jonas> ais523, zzo38: for the M:tG set "Conspiracy: Take the Crown", comprehensive rules update and release notes (setfaq) are out now, see http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/conspiracy-take-crown-release-notes-2016-08-22 and http://magic.wizards.com/en/gameinfo/gameplay/formats/comprehensiverules
17:44:50 <b_jonas> ais523: the strangest part to me is the artifact card Spy Kit, which is a less general version of an un-card.
17:45:30 <ais523> b_jonas: not really, _____ affected itself, spy kit affects other things
17:45:34 <quintopia> did i ever ask you how you got credit for an integral in the brain age tas?
17:46:02 <b_jonas> ais523: spy kit is weaker because it only affects permanents, whereas the unnamed card works in any zone
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17:46:26 <ais523> quintopia: I don't think so, but it's fairly simple
17:46:42 <ais523> they wanted a "really complex equation" to work as the answer to one of the questions
17:46:45 <ais523> and knew I was good at maths
17:47:00 <ais523> I thought it'd make more sense to do something that looked hard than actually was hard
17:47:11 <ais523> and for extra fun, I made it a joke equation
17:47:55 <quintopia> it went by too fast to get the joke. how did "they" know you?
17:48:20 <ais523> dwangoAC (the person who was presenting/commentating) and I have been working together on a TAS for years now
17:48:30 <b_jonas> ais523: that the unnamed card affects only itself barely matters if you're interested only in rules complications. you can use cytoshape to quicksliver elemental to add the unnamed card's ability to almost any permanent, except possibly an aura.
17:48:35 <ais523> (also I was expecting some people to screenshot/rewind to look at it)
17:48:38 <int-e> something like the degree of x in the polynomial (a-x)(b-x)...(z-x)?
17:49:02 <FireFly> yeah, you definitely have to pause to read it
17:49:04 <ais523> b_jonas: well there are things like placing spy kit on a "note this information during the draft" card
17:49:16 <ais523> that doesn't do anything but only because a rule was specifically added to prevent it doing anything
17:49:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I remmeber that one. was that one of the definite integrals that reduce to an integral of an odd function on an integral symmetric around zero?
17:49:52 <ais523> b_jonas: actually the function in question's a constant
17:49:55 <b_jonas> someone mentioned another of those definite integrals recently
17:50:35 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's why spy kit is *weaker*. it only changes names of permanents.
17:50:41 <ais523> but a) it's disguised behind a couple of trig identities, b) one half is easier to solve the definite integral of than another so most people who've tried to solve it haven't realised it's a constant function
17:51:08 <ais523> b_jonas: but spy kit is an easy way to get an unusual name combined with an unusual ability
17:51:13 <ais523> you can put it on experiment kraj, for example
17:51:21 <ais523> _____ only has abilities if you cytoshape it or the like
17:51:48 <b_jonas> ais523: or if you steal the ability from the unnamed card with a quicksilver elemental (or experiment kraj)
17:52:02 <b_jonas> ais523: spy kit might be easier to use in practice
17:52:20 <ais523> b_jonas: if you allow un-cards, there's also the spy kit + wordmail combo
17:52:27 <b_jonas> I'm just saying the unnamed card lets you do more rules breakage if you are willing to consider scenareos unrealistic in a game because they require ten card combos
17:52:32 <ais523> I don't think anyone's worked out quite how much of a stat boost that gives yet, but it's a lot
17:53:07 <ais523> also spy kit + magnetic theft + eradicate is a stupid combo that's got a lot of love on Reddit
17:53:14 <ais523> you can't do that with _____
17:53:53 <b_jonas> in http://www.komal.hu/forum/forum.cgi?a=to&tid=7&tc=4021 post [4006] is the definite integral that reduces to an integral of an odd function around a central interval
17:54:35 <b_jonas> ais523: ah yes, magnetic theft. that would be crazy
17:55:04 <ais523> it took people a while to figure out the magnetic theft trick, they were trying to do something with harmless offering before
17:56:18 <zzo38> Rule 612.6 says it count as a text-changing effect.
17:57:19 <b_jonas> ais523: Crumble to Dust could also work, but hard to pull off, you have to animate a land an opponent controls first, such as with Wind Zendikon.
17:57:24 <quintopia> ais523: is the joke just that you used trig functions to represent x^2/4
17:57:42 <ais523> quintopia: the trig functions entirely cancel each other out
17:57:49 <ais523> I used a few of the more obscure trig identities
17:57:56 <b_jonas> it can, but it also needs Magnetic Theft or some such thing
17:58:01 <ais523> (you won't find them directly in most trig identity lists, you have to rearrange the equation somewhat first)
18:00:02 <b_jonas> Dichotomancy should work against a spy kit
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18:00:51 <b_jonas> oh! Exclusion Ritual works with the Spy Kit on your own bear
18:01:13 <quintopia> ais523: i solved the integral by hand and notice they cancel but i dont understand why
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18:01:15 <b_jonas> just ignore me, I'm stupid
18:01:40 <ais523> quintopia: that's the effect I was going for
18:03:49 <quintopia> ais523: nvm i get it. i was ebtering it into desmos wrong
18:04:12 <b_jonas> Can you have more than four of the unnamed card in a deck if you change its name to different things before the match starts? In fact, can you have the unnamed card in your deck for a Standard constructed tournament if you change its name to Forest before the match starts?
18:04:32 <ais523> b_jonas: I was wondering about that
18:04:45 <ais523> I believe the answer would be yes if you could somehow generate {2} during deck construction
18:04:57 <b_jonas> Wait, I should look that up in maro's old un-faq
18:05:45 <b_jonas> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/ask-wizards-june-2007-2007-06-01
18:09:50 <quintopia> ais523: it would have taken less space to do int_blah^(blah+8) 2cos^2(blah*x/2)-cos(blah*x). is the factor of 1/2 just to make it uglier?
18:11:08 <ais523> quintopia: pretty much
18:11:14 <int-e> http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/conspiracy-take-the-crown/27511-spy-kit ... mm, the oracle text has a typo, but is it in any way official?
18:20:32 <b_jonas> int-e: there's no oracle text released yet
18:20:49 <b_jonas> int-e: that's not an official oracle text, it's just a text typed from some preview photos for that site
18:21:31 <b_jonas> int-e: you'll have oracle text when it appears in Gatherer, although it will probably be the same text as appears in the release notes http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/conspiracy-take-crown-release-notes-2016-08-22
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23:23:44 <boily> Phantom_Helloover. I do, somewhat?
23:24:04 <boily> hellørjan. do you crypto, bro?
23:24:43 <Phantom_Hoover> can you get a sense of what https://github.com/PhantomHoover/trepan/blob/master/machine.js#L2044 is trying to do?
23:25:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:175.44.4.163]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): persistent spammer
23:27:20 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: looks like it extracts a 128 bit fingerprint or IV from a 32 bit number.
23:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> v0 through v3 are 32-bit words in a 128-bit input value
23:31:32 <Phantom_Hoover> see my instinct was just to treat it as a black box and find the solution to the puzzle elsewhere
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23:31:59 <oerjan> helloily. only through putty and my browser hth
23:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> scroll to address 6666 and overwrite the ! with a space
23:34:21 <boily> what the fungot...
23:34:23 <fungot> boily: mr president-in-office of the council' s conclusions because we do indeed focus upon money rather than making those workers who already have difficulty making sense of all the others, i am delighted to acknowledge the fact that the council must now be content with mere rhetoric. it must stop serving mammon ciba-geigy, that is the origin of the various research agencies which are concerned with land-use planning, to avoid
23:34:48 <Phantom_Hoover> best i can tell it was posted on some of the chans in autumn last year
23:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i mention this because then and now i could find no evidence that anyone got any further than me
23:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> and back then i reverse-engineered and disassembled the source and i couldn't find any way forward
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23:36:54 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, the next steps are, btw: scroll up from the skull and you'll see a thought bubble from it saying '00005fe4'
23:37:46 <boily> it says 00005fe4 indeed. I am mystified.
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23:37:56 <Phantom_Hoover> write that address (little-endian ofc.) where it says 'code offset' on line 00006640 and overwrite the space
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23:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> do that and it'll fill out the password box below the skull for you
23:39:32 <Phantom_Hoover> then you do basically the same procedure but with 61b0 rather than 5fe4
23:40:11 <Phantom_Hoover> that turns the screen red and writes 'keep going' above the skull, and that's as far as i've got
23:40:47 <oerjan> <Lymia> The scoring algorithm does converge onto 100-0 for everything else if something maintains a 100% win rate. <-- pretty sure i discussed at some point how to avoid that ruining the hill
23:41:28 <boily> I tried 0x00000000 as an offset. it freezes :D
23:41:57 <oerjan> by dividing into strongly connected components, essentially. although it was probably not implemented.
23:42:48 <oerjan> it wouldn't solve the problem of someone submitting several copies of the same program, anyway.
23:43:33 <Lymia> Per-user program limit?
23:43:38 <Lymia> If someone submits more than, say, 5 programs
23:43:47 <Lymia> Bump the lowest scoring program that they've submitted
23:43:52 <Lymia> Rather than the lowest scoring programp eriod
23:44:04 <oerjan> Lymia: that's not immune to nick changes.
23:44:16 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: the magic numbers seem to contain digits of pi at least, the rest might be a simplification of a random hash function or something... maybe it's been broken in a way that you can generate a colliding password easily
23:44:29 <Lymia> It also ends the era of ais523
23:45:09 <ais523> right, BF Joust may be broken at this point
23:45:18 <ais523> I think we may need to keep submissions secret, at least in the details
23:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, i googled the magic numbers and they're identical to those in ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/src/security/ssh-2.0.13/lib/sshcrypt/dlfix.c
23:47:17 <Lymia> ais523, my proposal is monthly hills.
23:47:32 <Lymia> Through the month, people can submit programs which are kept secret until the evaluation at the end.
23:47:35 <ais523> the original BF Joust used weekly competitions, IIRC
23:47:42 <ais523> so monthly competitions would make sense
23:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> basically my fear is that, because i can't solve the puzzle by doing stuff in the editor, maybe you have to cryptanalyse it to solve it?
23:47:56 <ais523> we should still probably have an instant-feedback hill for practicing on
23:48:05 <ais523> but possibly with an unofficial rule that you shouldn't metagame on it
23:48:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover> that turns the screen red and writes 'keep going' above the skull, and that's as far as i've got <-- what happens if you try 61b0 + 2*(61b0-5fe4) ?
23:49:01 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, is this meant to be a revere engineering challenge?
23:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> not in any place i could find that was indexed by google
23:50:33 <Lymia> Well, from revere engineering, what's the general nature of the puzzle?
23:51:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oh of the VM? it's a custom RISC-y CPU using memory-mapped IO
23:52:16 <Lymia> Is that what's being displayed on screen?
23:52:27 <Lymia> (So reverse engineering just gets you the VM spec, boring)
23:53:04 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> is that a joke oerjan <-- no, but i hadn't seen your googling comment
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23:54:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's just the simplest interpretation of "keep going" i could think of.
23:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> the puzzle, as far as i can tell, is to decrypt the block of data from 60f0 to 65bf
23:56:17 * oerjan isn't actually looking at the puzzle, mind you
23:56:24 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a breadcrumb trail of hooks in the hex editor that will decrypt a password box and fill it with a password that will then decrypt down to 61cf, which reveals the hook that turns the screen red
23:56:59 <Phantom_Hoover> the problem is that from raking through the disassembly i'm confident that there are no more hooks in the editor left to activate after that
00:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's the one I searched, and it provided a list of "other indeterminate forms"
00:04:48 <myname> why's 1^infty indeterminate?
00:04:52 <oerjan> ∞^(-∞) should also work, i think
00:04:56 <hppavilion[1]> 0^0 = 1, 0/0 = tau/2, ∞/∞=1, 0∞ = 0, ∞-∞ = 0, 1^∞ = 1, and ∞^0 = 1
00:05:26 <myname> hppavilion[1]: why is 0^x = 0 except for x=0?
00:05:30 <oerjan> myname: it means basically that when you have limits going to the parts, you cannot say anything about the limit of the whole
00:05:55 <myname> oerjan: i get that, but 1 is not a limit
00:06:08 <oerjan> myname: anything can be a limit
00:06:11 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because it's useful to have x^0=1 forall x, and x^0 is more important than 0^x, and THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE
00:06:33 <myname> hppavilion[1]: no there cannot
00:06:33 <oerjan> if x -> 1 and y -> ∞, you can say nothing about x^y. that's all.
00:07:03 <myname> oerjan: but i do can say something about 1^x for every x
00:07:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: 0^0 is either equal to 0 OR 1 OR undefined; you can't have x^0 = 1 and 0^x = 0 forall x
00:07:21 <oerjan> myname: you seem not to get the point.
00:07:42 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that's why it is indeterminate
00:08:56 <oerjan> but it's still indeterminate for calculus purposes.
00:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> If you have two real functions f x and g x that vanish at the origin and are analytic at 0, then (f x)^(g x) approaches 1 as x approaches 0 from the right
00:09:53 <myname> oh, grade publish{d his 69th video
00:09:56 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really understand most of what I just said, but it sounds like a good thing
00:10:27 <oerjan> oh wait, ∞^(-∞) doesn't work, scratch that, it's clearly -> 0.
00:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> I wish I could give him more than one like per video
00:11:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: How does calculus work if you decide to use countable and uncountable infinities?
00:12:21 <hppavilion[1]> But then, when she wanted "the set of all multiples of pi" and I gave {n<pi> | n in Z}
00:12:39 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> If you have two real functions f x and g x that vanish at the origin and are analytic at 0, then (f x)^(g x) approaches 1 as x approaches 0 from the right <-- wat, i don't believe that.
00:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> Because the form that the book wants is {x | x=n<pi>, n in Z}
00:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> Any mathematician will tell you they're obviously equivalent, and that the notation is pretty standard, but that mine looks better
00:14:03 <hppavilion[1]> (I think she also had the whole numbers as 0,1,2,3... and the naturals as 1,2,3...)
00:14:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the infinities in calculus have nothing to do with cardinalities, so that's just nonsense.
00:14:58 <hppavilion[1]> (And I think maybe she said that you write the irrationals with a blackboard bold I? I've never heard of that being the rule, and I think I saw a thread asking what to use and the answer was "choose whatever and define it at the top")
00:15:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the alternative answer to your question is "lebesgue measure theory" hth
00:15:39 <oerjan> (but then it's not the values that are the infinities, but the sizes of sets)
00:15:44 <hppavilion[1]> (there needs to be a name for the non-zero reals, the positive reals, the positive reals plus zero, the negative reals, and the negative reals plus zero...)
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00:16:18 <myname> "whore houses are like disney land for guys. that is where wet dreams come true"
00:17:12 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Because the form that the book wants is {x | x=n<pi>, n in Z} <-- welcome to "lies to children", i think.
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00:18:35 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Whore houses are just New Orleans square, thankyouverymuch
00:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> A computer that could read set-builder notation would get the same answer
00:19:23 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't even mathematically a "weird notation"- it's normal notation, it just is doing it the stupid way
00:19:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the "do naturals include 0" question splits even professional mathematics, so don't complain _too_ much about hth
00:20:18 <hppavilion[1]> (in fact, I think she asked for the set {1, 2, 3...}- expecting it in set-builder- and I just said "N")
00:21:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The real issue is that one side has WITH zero as "whole numbers" and WITHOUT as "natural numbers", and the other side has WITH zero as "natural numbers" and WITHOUT zero as "whole numbers"
00:21:30 <hppavilion[1]> I think she even said- like, specifically, writing it out- that the whole numbers (in this case with zero) are written with the double-struck W
00:22:06 <hppavilion[1]> Which is presumably true, but nobody ever really does that in my experience and if you used it without defining it 15% of readers would have no idea what you're talking about
00:23:14 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm probably also going to get marked down for replacing variables like t or m- which are stupid variables that you don't use unless you've already used x, y, and z or you're specifically dealing with things like time- with x when there is no other x in this equation)
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00:24:38 <hppavilion[1]> I think she also said that the irrationals are written I, but http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/61269.html claims that I is for the integers (but that Z is also reserved for them, and is more common)
00:24:45 * boily pokes hppavilion[1] in the stability bits
00:25:09 <boily> hppavellon[1]. no, I was on the phone with the SO.
00:25:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure most professional mathematicians use "whole numbers" at all hth
00:25:42 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I've been ranting about the common core (or about my precalc teacher, depending on whether the things she's saying are from the common core)
00:26:07 <boily> what is common core?
00:26:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but I think mathoverflow said that if the naturals include 0 and you want to refer to the numbers without 0, then you say "whole numbers"
00:26:16 <myname> just use N^+ and N_0 twh
00:26:37 <oerjan> (incidentally, the obvious translation of "whole number" into norwegian (heltall) means integer, period.)
00:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That works, but I want to abbreviate it xD
00:27:09 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It's a unified standard in the US that is being used to try to fix our failing education system
00:27:15 <myname> hppavilion[1]: because an extra small symbol takes too much space?
00:27:20 <oerjan> *hele tall, unless you're composing words
00:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> In the general view, it's a rule that says what students need to know at the end of the year at minimum (each year has to teach this list of things if the student hasn't already leaned them: {...})
00:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Having an extra superscript + or subscript 0 makes it look like there's a set N, and that we're referring to a set derived from it
00:29:28 <hppavilion[1]> boily: In the more specific case, common core takes a rather feeble and over-practicalized view of education, puts it in a too-strict form, and regiments teachers down to the minute
00:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> So teachers can't slow down and spend an extra few days on something that this class has trouble with or skip over a section everybody already knows
00:30:06 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, we do
00:30:43 <hppavilion[1]> boily: For example, there's an image on the internet of a quiz filled out by a third grader or something
00:30:57 <myname> N^+ = { n | n in N, n > 0 } and N_0 = { 0 } cup N
00:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], from what i've heard common core is mostly a scapegoat
00:31:11 <myname> works for both definitions of N
00:31:14 <hppavilion[1]> And there's a question asking the student to solve "5*3" using "the addition strategy" (which, presumably, is where you just add stuff up)
00:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but it turns out there's more to it than pictures that go around on facebook
00:32:16 * boily attaches himself to his beloved Canada.
00:32:45 <boily> of course it's hyperbolic and probably apocryphal, but still. it's *juuuust* so believable...
00:33:00 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: But seriously, even if the rest of the system turns kids into ripped supergeniuses, the fact that something like that happened under it is absurd
00:33:15 <quintopia> does fungot string together trigrams or longer or shorter?
00:33:16 <fungot> quintopia: mr president, in its wisdom, that decides whether the measures adopted to date with poultry cages and provide for the continuance of the current member states.
00:34:04 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I don't think it's so much that the book said that doing 5+5+5 is wrong and 3+3+3+3+3 is right so much as it only listed 3+3+3+3+3, and the people in charge of grading the paper were mathematically illiterate and not qualified to be teaching math
00:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> But no matter how well your curriculum tells teachers what to teach, if the teacher doesn't get it the class won't work
00:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean a big part of it is that american right-wingers need to feed their 'this country is going to the dogs and we need to go back to the good times' narrative
00:36:12 <Phantom_Hoover> so blaming the common core for every problem in the education system is very attractive to them
00:36:53 <Phantom_Hoover> the 5+5+5 vs. 3+3+3+3+3 thing stems from a reasonable didactic idea that is incredibly stupid when used in a standardised test
00:38:32 <oerjan> <quintopia> does fungot string together trigrams or longer or shorter? <-- variable length
00:38:33 <fungot> oerjan: draftsman of the opinion of an institution that has the power and working methods for cooperation in the fields of teaching and culture, to education and the media, which will be granted to the court of first instance.
00:38:58 <quintopia> oerjan: random variable length? or adaptive?
00:39:50 <ais523> quintopia: IIRC it's a fixed length but the length depends on which ^style is set
00:40:35 <boily> it's not the length that counts, it's how many styles fungot has.
00:40:36 <quintopia> i wonder what we'd get running it on the entire google 3-grams dataset.
00:40:36 <fungot> boily: mr president, of course, not represented here today for this big debate. perhaps just for once i will also be ready by that time the commission made its own contribution. my colleague, mr liikanen, mrs wallström, to issue instructions. i can illustrate the problem using the example of mr cox understanding what was agreed in cardiff and which now goes ahead in the union already have a staff of only some 30 officials who c
00:40:36 <oerjan> iirc it's variable. adaptive presumably.
00:41:18 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
00:41:23 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:41:24 <quintopia> i think we need a "trump stump speeches" style
00:42:20 <oerjan> "•Nonsense generation based on variable-length ngram models."
00:42:46 <quintopia> believe me. if fungot spoke like Trump, it would be yuuuge! No one else can make fungot sound better. i kid you not.
00:42:47 <fungot> quintopia: mr president, on the resources available under the fisheries agreement between the council and, of course, to be trying to find solutions other than allowing refugees to settle in any part of the negotiations. on the other the programme for community research and the possible insertion of a specific paragraph or chapter in order to do so, we have studied this report and its recognition that the community structures,
00:44:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49630&oldid=49629 * Darkrifts * (+181)
00:45:25 <ais523> I guess the best way to view this is: if you have a business model that involves picking on rich people who can afford to hire good lawyers, make very very sure you don't do anything illegal
00:46:31 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: If a judge orders you do do something, you do it. You don't publish an article saying "A judge ordered us to do this, but we're just going to ignore him"
00:46:41 <boily> hppavilion[1]: huh? the whole gawker network thing?
00:47:11 <hppavilion[1]> boily: The main blog has shut down (looks like the website will be staying up, at least for a little while, but there'll be no new content)
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01:08:15 <oerjan> another legitimate-looking edit caught in the filter, and no sign of attempting to follow the new procedure :(
01:09:36 <oerjan> otoh i've seen no legitimate _registrations_ yet, so it seems a bit early to declare it a total failure.
01:10:06 <oerjan> quintopia: or they cannot be bothered. it requires registering ++, after all.
01:10:45 <quintopia> oerjan: well, i doubt it's much of a big loss.
01:10:48 <oerjan> probably not something people do just for correcting a couple typos.
01:11:35 <oerjan> quintopia: well it remains to be seen if _anyone_ bothers.
01:12:00 <quintopia> yeah, but if they try to do that and fail, won't their failed attempt be recorded and we can fix whatever they were trying to fix for them?
01:12:37 <oerjan> quintopia: well sure, we could do that recent edit. int-e did one previously. (i'm not sure if it's actually correct, though.)
01:13:29 <oerjan> this requires paying much more attention to the abuse filter log than i've previously done, anyhow.
01:13:44 <oerjan> (and i'm not promising to keep doing it.)
01:14:14 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/6629
01:14:53 <oerjan> at least int-e could, and he's not an admin.
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01:18:45 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
01:22:49 <quintopia> i like how "denier", traditionally a measure of the fineness of silk or rayon, is now more commonly used (and mispronounced) as "one who denies"
01:23:17 <quintopia> i like to imagine that holocaust denier is a way to measure the fineness of a holocaust
01:29:37 <Zarutian> quintopia: 'deni-er' versus 'dín(a|e)r'
01:31:17 <quintopia> i'm not familiar with this particular phonetic notation system
01:32:12 <quintopia> i guess (a|e) is some way to represent æ as a more drawn-out diphthong?
01:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> unless someone is saying de-nye-er about tights there are no mispronunciations involved
01:38:30 <Zarutian> quintopia: nope it is just that you could have eather a or e there
01:39:35 <myname> quintopia: something similar happened in german to auspowern
01:39:41 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: i could have said "pronounced using a different modernly-invented pronunciation that mayn't even be standard yet" but that would be somewhat wordy
01:40:30 <quintopia> Zarutian: look at Phantom_Hoover's pronunciation guide. it makes a lot more sense than yours
01:41:48 <myname> auspowern used to come from the french pauvre and shifted towars the english power
01:58:56 <\oren\> I am back in YYZ finally!
01:59:08 <lambdabot> CYYZ 240000Z 22012KT 15SM SCT120 BKN250 25/14 A3020 RMK AC4CI1 SLP227 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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01:59:34 <quintopia> ...oh i thought you meant the rush song
02:03:48 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, here's a way to make your musical notation horrifying
02:05:36 <oerjan> `8ball is my suspicion right?
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02:07:22 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: That would probably be parsed as an unusual way of writing a quarter note.
02:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: But also include quarter notes so that people are unsure
02:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> And maybe occasionally have notes with the flag on the other side, or mirror the note entirely
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02:08:58 <pikhq> There's a few other novelties you could use, such as the flagged longa. :)
02:09:53 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: no need to obfuscate. you should always strive to make your musical notation as clear and concise as possible. for instance, look how simple and readable that is: https://prestonparish.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/last.gif
02:10:34 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: The point of this is that it's obfuscated, to make the sheet music as intimidating and horrifying as possible
02:10:50 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe a whole note, but filled in like a quarter note's head
02:11:09 <pikhq> quintopia: The further along that gets, the less valid and playable it gets.
02:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> ...does that music require that I take square roots?
02:11:48 <quintopia> pikhq: that last note is wonderful
02:11:51 <pikhq> It starts looking like it's just written for robots or something, and goes all the way into nonsense.
02:12:21 <hppavilion[1]> (since the "filled in head" isn't usually parsed as "make it half the length" the way a flag is due to filling in being non-repeatable, it'd take a bit to figure it out)
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02:12:30 <quintopia> as a former bass player, i can also identify strongly with the 437 measures of rest
02:12:49 <pikhq> As a former bass singer, I too identify with it.
02:12:51 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: How would a note with only half of the notehead filled in be parsed? >:)
02:13:03 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: A punch to the head.
02:13:17 <pikhq> ... Of the composer, I should say.
02:13:20 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: We'll assume that I'm long dead because I wrote classical music
02:13:43 <pikhq> There will be debates in academia about how it was intended to be played for ages.
02:14:37 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll forge a piece of classical music (attribute it to a false (but plausible) composer so it isn't too illegal) and fill it with stuff like this
02:15:01 <hppavilion[1]> And a couple historical documents from other sources claiming it's "perhaps the most beautiful piece ever written" and such
02:17:27 <hppavilion[1]> (hm, how does one write "a chord, but in which some of the notes in it are held for longer than others" in normal notation? I'm certain that there's a simple, generally-accepted way that has been used for centuries because it seems like a pretty simple thing, but I can't remember since it's been years since I picked up a piano)
02:18:08 <quintopia> oh man. botanicsage just mashed up bowsers castle theme from smw with interior crocodile alligator :D
02:19:58 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Write two chords, one with and then one without the notes, and use a tie to connect them.
02:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> (what is the interpretation if you have a chord in which some noteheads are filled and others aren't? Probably something similar)
02:20:46 <hppavilion[1]> (the filled noteheads end a beat before the unfilled ones, almost certainly)
02:20:52 <pikhq> I don't think that would be conventional, but that'd be the likely interpretation.
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02:28:59 <incomprehensibly> hppavilion[1]: that would usually only be used when there are multiple distinguishable voices/parts (e.g. right-hand/left-hand)
02:29:20 <incomprehensibly> i.e. if there is a chord played entirely by the left hand, multiple note values in the same chord would be obfuscatory, and so it would be done using ties
02:29:36 <incomprehensibly> but if there is a left hand chord and a right hand melody, it's ok to have totally different note values
02:29:48 <incomprehensibly> hppavilion[1]: oh it's certainly possible, just confusing to the player and so is generally avoided
02:31:13 <hppavilion[1]> Question: Is it possible to make software that reliably plays relatively real-sounding music given a file that describes the music as a sort of electronic sheet music (probably some sort XML or JSON, but anything would work)?
02:32:08 <hppavilion[1]> (probably designed for music composition so you don't have to, y'know, find an entire orchestra to play it at the drop of a hat to make sure it sounds right)
02:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> incomprehensibly: But I seem to remember MIDI not being exactly what I was going for
02:32:55 <incomprehensibly> which has pretty high quality sample libraries for various real pianos
02:33:26 <incomprehensibly> but "real-sounding" would require stuff like dynamics, interpretation, performance, which would not be contained in the sheet music and kind of depends on a human being there either to record the performance or to tweak all the notes
02:33:53 <hppavilion[1]> And are there any editors that use either something that looks approximately like real musical notation (WYSIWYGily) or a relatively easy DSL?
02:33:59 <incomprehensibly> and you COULD write a program to fake all that stuff in a way that a good pianist would be able to tell was nonsense but could probably trick most people
02:35:02 <hppavilion[1]> incomprehensibly: LilyPond is what sent me on this track, and it's been compared to Sibelius and Finale as being about the same, but LilyPond, AFAICT, doesn't play the music; just makes the sheet out of LaTeX
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02:42:08 <hppavilion[1]> (It looks like LilyPond is extensible, so someone is bound to have made a synthesizer by now)
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04:17:09 <zzo38> AmigaMML is another program you can write music with, although it cannot output MIDI files. You can include dynamics and other stuff though, and does not require Amiga computer to be use
04:18:01 <zzo38> I think that XML is pretty bad for stuff that isn't markup-text
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06:56:19 <hppavilion[1]> "Where could you have possibly gotten that idea?": Normal; "Where could you have possibly gotten that idea\?": Sarcastic
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07:26:18 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe_Protection_Society is funny
07:26:48 <hppavilion[1]> "It is not clear in what sense the APS is a society, or how many members it has (if any), or from where it claims authority for its views. John Richards has never published a constitution, a list of members, or the criteria (if any) for membership. It is not known in what sense he is the chairman, how he was elected or appointed, or how he might be removed."
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07:38:20 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, inanimate whose is one of the little holes in English that, once you notice it, you can't close it
07:38:35 <hppavilion[1]> Some people use "of which", but others (including me) think it sounds overly formal
07:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> (but not quite; there's no glottal stop so it's more like... "whichs"
07:39:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `huh'': not found
07:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> So what does #esoteric think about the inanimate whose?
07:47:42 <hppavilion[1]> I just reverted a vandalized Wikipedia page to an unvandalized revision!
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08:36:24 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Some of the styles have a fixed length, but the majority are based on variable-length models trained with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN
08:36:31 <fizzie> quintopia: As above. ^
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09:10:25 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I tend to anthropomorphise inanimate objects to some extent anyway, inanimate whose doesn't bug me at all
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11:05:55 <zgrep> "Don't anthropomorphise ____, they *hate* that!"
11:25:03 <int-e> zgrep: don't you hate being anthropomorphised?'
11:25:21 <int-e> . o O ( "look at zgrep, he looks almost human!" )
11:26:19 <zgrep> It's so annoying being mistaken for something that has human qualities.
11:27:27 * zgrep is such a tool, found in every computer, essentially being gzip -d | grep
11:27:56 <int-e> . o O ( zcat | grep )
11:28:31 * zgrep . o O ( I wonder why int-e doesn't use a CTCP action. )
11:28:52 * zgrep . o O ( . o O ( . o O ( ... ) ) )
11:28:58 <int-e> zless is perhaps the program in that family that I use most often.
11:29:04 <zgrep> Cogito ergo cogito.
11:29:31 * zgrep doesn't actually use any of the z* commands... ._.
11:29:39 <int-e> zgrep: because in the context where I developed the habit (some MUD), the output would've looked like this: [int-e . o O ( foo )]
11:29:49 <int-e> and it's not an alias.
11:30:24 * zgrep . o O ( Programs with aliases, they're hiding from someone, they must be criminals! )
11:30:31 * zgrep . o O ( Or spies! )
11:32:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: speedtest: not found
11:32:42 <zgrep> HackEgo has sped up?
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11:34:50 <HackEgo> applicative functor//Applicative functors are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
11:36:53 <zgrep> @tell zgrep Hello.
11:37:29 <zgrep> @tell lambdabot Hello.
11:37:44 <zgrep> @tell thispersondoesnotexistyet Hello.
11:41:08 <boily> int-ello, zgrellop.
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11:41:53 * zgrep boils boily as a greeting
11:43:18 <HackEgo> AlexR42: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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12:02:24 <b_jonas> I'm reading the scrollback again, about crazy sheets of five-line musical staff notation maybe parodies or maybe obfuscated stuff at https://prestonparish.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/viral-sheet-music-the-creative-notation-of-john-stump-and-others/
12:26:37 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOÔOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
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14:31:56 <Jafet> the CC0 license is surprisingly bloated
14:32:02 <Jafet> https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode
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14:47:30 <oerjan> Jafet: it's not so surprising when you think about how it's trying to work in jurisdictions whose laws are actively hostile to the idea of relinquishing author rights.
15:10:41 <int-e> That sounds so negative, but it is oddly approproate.
15:16:53 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, inanimate whose is one of the little holes in English that, once you notice it, you can't close it <-- wiktionary says _formerly proscribed_
15:19:16 * oerjan notes that the corresponding norwegian pronoun is archaic. no idea if it was proscribed for inanimates.
15:42:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: which pronoun, "min"?
15:51:15 <quintopia> i have no idea how one would generate nonsense from a variable length language model. how do you know how far back to read?
15:53:12 <oerjan> it might not be _entirely_ archaic, but definitely excessively formal.
15:53:47 <quintopia> hvis is an inanimate relative possessive pronoun?
15:54:10 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm pretty sure those variable length models involved PhDs hth
15:55:10 <oerjan> ok it's a pretty sure hunch
15:55:11 <quintopia> i still feel like i should be able to understand it
15:56:09 <oerjan> quintopia: i assume there's a cutoff formula or algorithm.
15:58:01 <Jafet> isn't oerjan an expert in knowing how far back to read?
16:03:53 <fizzie> quintopia: As far back as you have matching context in the model, with a probability based on the backoff weight of using a shorter context sometimes.
16:05:28 <quintopia> fizzie: how does the model generator decide what length contexts to include?
16:06:06 <fizzie> quintopia: https://sites.google.com/site/vesassiivola/publications/TASLP2007.pdf
16:08:41 <oerjan> told you there was a PhD.
16:09:48 <fizzie> Well, there's a more approachable overview in chapter 3 of https://sites.google.com/site/vesassiivola/publications/is2007less.pdf
16:12:35 <quintopia> nah that paper goves me a decent idea even if i dont know what kneser-ney smoothing is. pretty clever.
16:12:51 <oerjan> . o O ( tool assisted speed linguistic programming )
16:13:11 <int-e> oerjan: you may be reading a tad too fast
16:13:24 <oerjan> int-e: you're assuming i'm actually reading?
16:13:49 <int-e> oerjan: it's something that empirically, you are often doing
16:14:20 <int-e> and I'm often making assumptions
16:14:32 <int-e> so nobody should be surprised.
16:14:55 <quintopia> you cant be sure oerjan isnt just skimming, reading only a word here or there and making up the parts in between
16:14:56 <int-e> oerjan: I'm sure, can you provide evidence to the contrary?
16:15:41 <int-e> . o O ( is_mega_non_overlapping )
16:15:51 <oerjan> quintopia: in fact the only part of that link i read was the picture captions at the end, and only to check i wasn't lying hth
16:16:23 <oerjan> (i checked afterwards, of course)
16:19:33 <oerjan> int-e: i'm sure TASPL would be a thing if fizzie and ais523 would just cooperate on it.
16:22:41 <fizzie> Fun fact I learned the other day: Subversion respects an environment variable called SVN_I_LOVE_CORRUPTED_WORKING_COPIES_SO_DISABLE_SLEEP_FOR_TIMESTAMPS, which you can set to "yes" to disable a wait it does in many places to ensure filesystem timestamps have changed.
16:23:41 <HackEgo> california//California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A"
16:25:25 <fizzie> Apparently it's something the test suite uses to make the tests not take so long.
16:27:56 <fizzie> There's three other similarly named knobs; SVN_I_LOVE_CORRUPTED_WORKING_COPIES_SO_DISABLE_RELOCATE_VALIDATION, SVN_I_LIKE_LATENCY_SO_IGNORE_HTTPV2 and SVN_I_LOVE_PANGALACTIC_GARGLE_BLASTERS.
16:29:04 <fizzie> (If the last one is set and the file revision number is 42, it prints a humorous message as part of the commit message.)
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16:43:37 <\oren\> oh, it can use http or use its own protocol
16:54:46 <\oren\> by the way, they are apparently making progress toward shutting down the quickbooks dude
16:56:50 <lambdabot> CYYZ 241500Z 18007KT 140V200 15SM FEW030 BKN250 25/17 A3016 RMK CU2CI3 SLP212 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
17:01:27 <oerjan> \oren\: the quickbooks dudes seem to have stopped attacking our wiki for now, at least.
17:02:09 <oerjan> (the new filter is catching several other kinds of spam, though.)
17:02:23 <\oren\> oerjan: I mean that the telephone company is shutting down their fraudulent help line
17:02:52 <oerjan> but i assume they would have no reason to spam a phone number that isn't working.
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18:22:43 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 5m 49s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, inanimate whose is one of the little holes in English that, once you notice it, you can't close it <-- wiktionary says _formerly proscribed_
18:28:18 <Taneb> One of my friends has been trying to get an FTP server to connect to irc
18:31:31 <ais523> Taneb: via getting it to upload a file to Freenode that has IRC-like lines at the start?
18:31:50 <ais523> IIRC many IRC servers have been modified to close the connection if they see anything that looks like it's part of the wrong protocol
18:31:55 <Taneb> I'm not sure of the specifics
18:32:26 <Taneb> He could set a nick but freenode makes you wait until a 001 before you can join a channel
18:32:27 <ais523> due to things like the web-based worm we had a while back (basically it posted links to a web page, and if you visited that web page, you'd spam the link into other channels because it convinced your browser to connect to an IRC server)
18:32:56 <ais523> that sounds like another sort of fix to the same problem
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18:43:34 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points -4.74, score 26.58, rank 2/47
18:44:00 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
18:44:29 <ais523> ooh, is someone jousting beind our back? :-D
18:48:47 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points -4.57, score 26.68, rank 2/47 (--)
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19:00:16 <\oren\> warning: '&&' within '||'
19:01:05 <\oren\> why not warning: '*' within '+'
19:01:27 <\oren\> warning: '-' within '=='
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19:04:30 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
19:05:37 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/icbm: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/fternooner:fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry. \ wisdom/gasp
19:06:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/gaspasjo:gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ wisdom/fternooner:fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry. \ wisdom/møøse:Møøse is Norwegian for moss. \ wisdom/lexer:lexer is a maximally Norwegian painter. Its squares
19:06:30 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: temp/wegians: No such file or directory
19:06:39 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: shr/wegians: No such file or directory
19:06:44 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:06:46 <\oren\> `learn Warnings indicate whn you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence.
19:06:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'warning': Warnings indicate whn you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence.
19:06:58 <\oren\> `learn Warnings indicate when you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence.
19:07:02 <HackEgo> Relearned 'warning': Warnings indicate when you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence.
19:07:10 <HackEgo> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
19:07:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:07:31 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: use paste
19:07:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.2574
19:09:14 <hppavilion[1]> `learn A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
19:09:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'wegian': A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
19:09:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Soletur1970 * New user account
19:11:49 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points 0.67, score 32.21, rank 2/47 (--)
19:11:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Soletur1970]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled): Quickbooks spammer
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19:13:15 <HackEgo> Roxxik: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
19:17:59 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: try using a custom adblock to remove the links
19:21:03 <\oren\> I also recommend removing the wall street journal (paywall), breitbart and the new york observer (propaganda), vox and the huffington post (propaganda),
19:23:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: At this point, twitter and reddit, probably
19:23:52 <hppavilion[1]> Reddit: The only news site where you can block bullshit
19:25:21 <\oren\> Oh I also read the Register
19:25:40 <\oren\> but that's only tech news
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19:27:54 <bojidar_bg> Just read http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather -- I think this is (easy, really easily) "doable" in JavaScript via Object.create and prototypes. Basically, in JS each Object has a prototype, and if it lacks a property, it would lookup the prototype. (Or am I missing something?)
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19:59:04 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points 5.79, score 37.75, rank 2/47 (--)
20:00:52 <quintopia> beating kiseki is now the easiest way to get to the top of the chart
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20:10:07 <david_werecat> thanks, although I'm not sure how much of that score is because of kiseki...
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20:12:23 <quintopia> and if lymia is feeling flippant, they can just rerun the program with neutrino included and get back the same score they had to begin with
20:15:13 <david_werecat> Before kiseki it had been a while since a program beat every other program. The last time I remember that happening was a couple of years ago.
20:16:17 <quintopia> space_hotel did once, but not on every tape length and polarity
20:16:33 <quintopia> anyway, i think you have now qualified as the new deewiant.
20:16:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49631&oldid=49163 * Mychal * (+413) Added Io implementation
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20:34:30 <zemhill__> david_werecat.beatskiseki: points -19.69, score 10.75, rank 28/47
20:35:46 <zemhill__> david_werecat.beatskiseki: points -17.19, score 16.50, rank 13/47
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21:21:52 <david_werecat> !ztest neutrino >(+)*15(>--)*3(>[>>>((>[-[++[(+)*6[-][+]+>+{}]]]+)%-1)*-1])*16(>[(-)*14[+][-]])*8>(-)*127([[-][+]])*-1
21:21:52 <zemhill__> david_werecat.neutrino: points 2.43, score 30.72, rank 2/47 (--)
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21:48:51 <fizzie> Lymia: Yeah, I have a feeling BF Joust activity is too sporadic for the monthly code-secret-until-over competition idea to work super well.
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21:52:21 <wob_jonas> "IIRC many IRC servers have been modified to close the connection if they see anything that looks like it's part of the wrong protocol" => yes, but more importantly, many irc servers (but not the one on freenode) require you to pong a ping whose body has a random string before you can do anything, to stop blind attacks that don't read what the serv
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23:22:41 * boily pokes \oren\ in the Torontonian bits
23:24:54 <quintopia> why did rush name a song after an aeroport?
23:25:03 <boily> quintopia! because YYZ!
23:25:19 <boily> . o O ( why yyz, au fait? )
23:27:05 <boily> thinking about eating.
23:27:12 <boily> . o O ( I should be eating. )
23:30:04 <boily> I like seeing what's happening :)
23:31:01 <quintopia> david_werecat uploaded some new entries. thats all.
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23:32:02 <boily> the happening doesn't happen much, eh?
23:32:08 <lambdabot> KATL 242152Z 14003KT 10SM FEW008 SCT110 BKN200 BKN250 26/23 A3022 RMK AO2 SLP223 T02560228 $
23:32:11 <lambdabot> CYUL 242200Z 22009G21KT 30SM FEW180 SCT240 28/18 A3003 RMK AC1CI3 SLP171 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
23:32:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:33:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:33:56 <int-e> (I keep thinking that)
23:33:59 <lambdabot> LOWI 242220Z AUTO 24003KT 210V270 9999 NCD 17/14 Q1024
23:35:58 <boily> int-ello. call of cyul?
23:36:56 <quintopia> CYUL is always swimming but it always swims Left
23:37:54 <lambdabot> CYYB 242200Z 17006KT 15SM -SHRA SCT044 OVC060 21/17 A2995 RMK SC3SC5 CVCTV CLD EMBD SLP142 DENSITY ALT 2200FT
23:38:21 <\oren\> Why is there never much temperature difference between here and north bay
23:38:44 <\oren\> north bay is like 7 hours driving north from here
23:38:57 <lambdabot> CYYZ 242200Z 20012G18KT 15SM FEW130 SCT150 BKN220 29/14 A3001 RMK AC1AC2CI3 SLP163 DENSITY ALT 2100FT
23:39:30 <\oren\> oh great today it's actually colder in Toronto. I don't understand waether
23:40:28 <boily> the whole of Ontario can be reduced to a single point hth
23:43:20 <\oren\> or should that be weDR
23:45:36 <oerjan> \oren\: how do you spell "core"
23:46:24 <lambdabot> KOAK 242153Z 29012KT 10SM FEW010 20/13 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP173 T02000128
23:46:33 <lambdabot> ENVA 242220Z 13006KT 9999 VCSH SCT045 BKN065 12/12 Q1017 RMK WIND 670FT 17007KT
23:47:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:48:40 <\oren\> theoretically, one could mark letters with thingies on top of them but I don't knwo how to type those thingies
23:48:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:48:59 <\oren\> so my proposal uses capital letters, klingon-style
23:50:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> From now on, there is no such thing as "the square root" of a number (or really any nth root)
23:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> There are only numbers which are "a square root" of it
23:51:59 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> `` grep wegian -r wisdom > temp/wegians <-- we have | paste for this hth
23:52:09 <hppavilion[1]> If you just want the principle root, you have to specify that, but you also have to define what differentiates between a principle and nonprinciple root
23:52:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "the square root" is positive by definition hth
23:54:21 <oerjan> it's the principal of the thing.
23:55:01 <hppavilion[1]> (In my Algebra II class last year, when finding the zeros of a quadratic we used any root, but she also said that the equation y = sqrt(x) is a function because only the positive part of the results are true; though, to be fair, we did at least use ± on the former)
23:56:20 <quintopia> traditionally the principal root is the one with smallest argument
23:57:18 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, is that mathspeak or just "the one that the least people complain about"?
23:57:52 <oerjan> it's the angle of a complex number, in radians
23:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Maybe we should require that new users make themselves a userpage, and that an administrator read it and think "yeah, looks pretty legit" before approving them
23:58:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't work because there's been a lot of spammers that _do_ make their own userpages
23:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> (auto-approval happens after a week or so, admins can disapprove before then)
23:59:29 <oerjan> presumably because other wikis have such a policy, or something.
23:59:39 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: They'll probably look pretty formulaic and 2^n-assed (for natural n >=2)
00:00:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway, we have such a system now, it's just a different page.
00:00:57 <oerjan> oh, a quickbooks spammer in the aubse log
00:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> (even better, we could make a user's first couple of edits non-binding (administrators must approve them), but the user isn't informed (while logged in, they see their edits as if they had gone through))
00:01:59 <hppavilion[1]> (But that'd probably require someone to create an entirely new MediaWiki plugin)
00:02:02 <oerjan> ais523: you didn't give em time to introduce emself ;P
00:02:39 <oerjan> it would have been hilarious if that was the first user to manage the process
00:03:34 <oerjan> hey since when does ais523 idle :(
00:03:48 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, were their edits after account creation purged from Recent Changes, or was it just assumed they're a spammer because no introduction was created within 2 minutes?)
00:04:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it won't require an entirely new mediawiki plugin because there's already an approved version feature.
00:04:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm beginning to feel like the wiki is becoming a game of Papers, Please
00:04:55 <ais523> oerjan: I decided to idle more
00:05:00 <oerjan> however, it will probably either show up in HackEgo announcements, or make them useless...
00:05:01 <ais523> I've been idle in my idling recently
00:05:07 <ais523> (also, for a while I idled but not in #esoteric)
00:06:05 <ais523> pending changes doesn't stop spam
00:06:14 <ais523> it hides spam from public view but it still forces admins to go and clean the spam up manually
00:06:17 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( What we really need is a decoy esolangs.org that's unrelated to the REAL esolangs.org )
00:07:28 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should just ban the word 'quickbooks' from ever appearing on the wiki...
00:07:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it wasn't purged, and you can see that (except for completely deleted pages) with the Show bots option
00:08:12 <quintopia> but how about we get in touch with these spammers and offer to let them by ad-space? they could put a banner up "want to participate in a sort tech support scam for fun and (our) profit?"
00:11:58 -!- jaboja has joined.
00:12:01 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] shachaf shachaf shachaf
00:12:23 <HackEgo> <hppavilion[1]> learn A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham). \ <shachaf> rm wisdom/wegian \ <shachaf> sedlast s/member/regular/ \ <shachaf> learn A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric members. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland)
00:15:36 <HackEgo> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
00:19:50 * oerjan looks at the logs and thinks bojidar_bg must have been missing something.
00:20:12 <quintopia> also esoteric has the best members. they're yuuuuge!
00:20:32 <HackEgo> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
00:20:40 * oerjan goes to look up this yuge meme
00:23:52 <ais523> oerjan: Trump reference
00:24:00 <ais523> as in the US presidential candidate
00:24:03 <oerjan> ais523: also bernie, it seems
00:24:40 <ais523> meh, if someone says "yuge" out of context the sentence it's in is almost certainly intended to be attributed to Trump (and the word is used to make people read the rest of the sentence in Trump's voice)
00:25:41 <shachaf> why do people suddenly not refer to politicians by their last names anymore
00:25:51 <quintopia> i just wanted to talk about huge members
00:26:04 <oerjan> ais523: also, bojidar_bg was speaking about feather hth
00:26:35 <oerjan> i think he may not have understood the rewinding time semantics.
00:27:51 <boily> is feather going to be still alive yet now?
00:28:12 <oerjan> boily: it wioll haven been.
00:29:15 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't really have a relationship to dill, sorry
00:29:35 <hppavilion[1]> Some are referred to by their full name, some by their last name, some by saying the letters in their initials, and at least one by just his middle initial
00:29:59 <boily> oerjan: you should.
00:30:08 * oerjan notes that norwegian politicians have been first-named for decades.
00:30:28 <oerjan> although not consistently.
00:30:56 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: PICKLES ARE VERY GOOD AND THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM AT ALL I LOVE THEM AND THEY DON'T HAVE A GUN TO MY HEAD
00:31:19 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: who is this "full name" politician of which you speak?
00:31:28 <shachaf> oerjan: Does Harald V even have a last name?
00:31:35 * oerjan seems to have stopped reading norwegian news
00:31:46 <hppavilion[1]> George Washington is usually called "George Washington", at least much more commonly than just "Washington"
00:31:47 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think so.
00:31:58 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: nah. those were either last name or nickname
00:32:45 <quintopia> also you left off nickname and spelling initials of nickname from your list
00:32:46 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: What do people call George Washington if not that?
00:33:09 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: That's less common than "George Washington"
00:33:45 <hppavilion[1]> And "Bill Clinton" and "Teddy Roosevelt" (we count "Teddy" as his first name. Don't question it.)
00:33:57 <quintopia> maybe now, but back then "general washington" or "president washington" or even "mr washington" was more common
00:34:23 <quintopia> i always just say jackson for andy jackson
00:35:11 <shachaf> I didn't know until recently that Benjamin Harrison was the grandson of William Harrison.
00:35:16 <quintopia> the other two are just fullnames to distinguish them from others with the same name
00:35:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: "IIRC many IRC servers have been modified to close the connection if they see anything that looks like it's part of the wrong protocol" => yes, but more importantly, many irc servers (but not the one on freenode) require you to pong a ping whose body has a random string before you can do anything, to stop blind attacks that don't read what
00:36:18 <quintopia> and bill clinton is just slick willy
00:36:49 <wob_jonas> They are even so helpful as to send you a notice after a few seconds if your client doesn't automatically pong so that you can pong manually.
00:37:16 <wob_jonas> I've seen this on multiple networks.
00:37:38 <ais523> now I have to remember how ø is pronounced again
00:37:42 <ais523> is it more like ö or like aw?
00:37:45 <ais523> IIRC it's one or the other
00:38:29 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: According to the guy at Epcot, it's something like "oo-i" (short i sound)
00:39:06 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that's fairly close to ö, if you remove the i (but keep the transition between the oo and the i)
00:39:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's like ö. It's really the same as ö only the Norwegians use a same spelling for it. They also use æ instead of ä.
00:39:24 <ais523> so do they use œ for anything?
00:40:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ø is not a diphthong hth
00:40:31 <ais523> diphthongs are mostly an English thing I think
00:40:51 <ais523> but they're often comparable to vowels in other languages if you just take the transition and leave out the vowel at either side
00:40:51 <oerjan> it's like swedish ö, which is like german ö but with more protruded lips.
00:42:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: the problem with taking English vowels as a base for _anything_ is that their actual pronunciations are so much varied by dialect
00:42:26 <oerjan> ais523: it's å which is like aw hth
00:42:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: that's a good point
00:42:58 <ais523> wob_jonas: however, there are some relatively standardised pronunciations (such as the ones that are used on national BBC shows when they're trying to be understandable)
00:43:22 <wob_jonas> I suppose maybe you could still use them if you are, like, native English and are familiar with lots of dialects on four continents, so that you can say something is like this vowel as pronounced by people in this obscure Indian town where somehow everyone happens to have the same dialect.
00:43:46 <wob_jonas> It certainly won't work for me, because I'm very bad at English pronunciation, and certainly can't pronounce vowels properly according to any dialect.
00:44:28 <wob_jonas> I think I probably don't even recognize them properly unless I really pay attention, because I have no idea which word is supposed to have which of the three o vowels.
00:44:41 <oerjan> ais523: norwegian has diphthongs too, but they're written as two vowels.
00:45:07 <ais523> oerjan: in English sometimes we write them as two vowels, and sometimes we don't!
00:45:22 <ais523> and sometimes the second vowel is an e later in the word
00:45:35 <ais523> which you have to magically teleport back to the vowel it modifies
00:45:41 <ais523> and sometimes an e really is just an e
00:46:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but the problem isn't those two vowels. I can't distinguish the two long ones (the "note" vowel from the "caught" vowel) and those aren't the two that many dialects unify
00:46:53 <hppavilion[1]> What are the nationalities (in demonym form) of all #esoteric regulars?
00:47:02 <wob_jonas> as in, I can't distinguish them unless I pay attention, I unify them in my mind, which is why I don't remember which word has which one
00:47:15 <ais523> wob_jonas: we have like five different long vowels in most of the less vowelmergy dialects
00:47:25 <ais523> (and in the most vowelmergy dialects it's best just to figure out the word from the consonants)
00:47:37 <wob_jonas> hppavilion[1]: many are Norwegian or British
00:48:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: english, scottish, norwegian, finnish, swedish, hungarian, polish, french, canadian, austrian, german
00:48:26 <ais523> wob_jonas: "note" and "caught" are pretty different, though, at least in the relatively neutral accent I have (my parents are from different parts of the country so their accents sort-of averaged out)
00:48:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: I can imagine that there are accents where they both make an "oi" sound though
00:49:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: they are different, yes. "note" has the diphtong, "caught" has the plain long closed o
00:49:17 <ais523> although I'd more likely interpret "noite" as "night" rather than "note"
00:49:29 <hppavilion[1]> So other #esoteric equivalence classes include an and ish, I guess?
00:49:32 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:49:36 <ais523> wob_jonas: well "caught" is an aw, "note" is an oe
00:49:46 <ais523> those are normally considered pretty different as vowels go
00:49:59 <wob_jonas> but that diphtong (unlike the "bite" and "make" dipthong) is such a crazy alien thing for my Hungarian ears that I just mentally transform it to a plain long o
00:50:04 <ais523> I guess the vowel in "caught" is also often spelled or
00:50:11 <ais523> meaning that they both are types of o
00:50:16 <ais523> but I don't think of them like that
00:50:37 <ais523> if I undipthongise an oe it becomes more like a ur
00:50:40 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What's the caught/cot difference pre-merger again?
00:50:51 <wob_jonas> the "there" diphtong is also alien, but I mentally transform it to a long OPEN e, so I don't confuse it with any other English vowel
00:51:13 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: "o" in cot is a short vowel and can't easily be extended
00:51:17 <ais523> your voice cracks up if you try
00:51:20 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined.
00:51:34 <ais523> (some dialects have been extending it into an or, much like in caught; that's the merger)
00:51:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: air is pretty rare as vowels go
00:52:00 <ais523> although I somehow managed it twice in a sentence by mistake
00:52:01 <oerjan> dependent on what you mean by regular, i can include indian, dutch. oh and i forgot italian.
00:52:19 <ais523> possibly because I was thinking about it and subconciously chose words that used it
00:52:44 <ais523> not sure what the spelling that actually starts with e rather than a is
00:52:47 <oerjan> there might be an israeli which isn't also american, i'm not quite sure.
00:52:53 <ais523> I suspect it's actually a tripthong, though
00:52:58 <ais523> rather than a dipthong
00:53:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: basically, the "bite", "make", "now" diphtongs map to what you can get in Hungarian from semivowels, spelled as "áj", "éj", "au" (the latter only when pronounced as one syllable) which occur in actual words, whereas the "note" and "there" are crazy so I can't imagine them as diphtongs, only as single sounds
00:53:20 <ais523> it starts as ay, then becomes ee, then becomes er
00:53:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: we have many more dipthongs than that, though
00:54:02 <ais523> that one's /really/ common so I'm surprised you haven't listed it
00:54:09 <oerjan> i think there's also an icelandic.
00:54:10 <wob_jonas> ais: I think "paint" has the "make" diphtong, doesn't it?
00:54:27 <oerjan> for anything more, i'd have to start looking at /who output.
00:54:40 <ais523> for some reason I missed it in your comment
00:54:56 <ais523> hmm, I wonder where my reverse phonetic dictionary got to
00:55:11 <ais523> it's not something I've needed for decades
00:55:38 <oerjan> we've had australians and new zealanders before, but i'm not sure if there are any here these days.
00:55:40 <wob_jonas> there is one more, the "here" diphtong, which is less common, and I DO confuse it with the ordinary long i sound from "sheep", and there are some other vowels that might be diphtongs in some pronunciations
00:55:42 <ais523> (actually I'm not 100% sure I ever really needed it; I read a lot so it's rare to need to figure out how a word is spelled given only its pronounciation, the reverse problem is more common)
00:55:54 <wob_jonas> also, what I'm confused about very often depends on the spelling too
00:55:58 <ais523> yes, "here" is distinct and also fairly rare
00:56:09 <wob_jonas> because I know English spelling much more than pronunciatino
00:56:19 <oerjan> <ais523> (and in the most vowelmergy dialects it's best just to figure out the word from the consonants) <-- hm ... english abjad
00:56:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: well you have problems like the spelling "ere" being used for two distinct vowel combinations
00:57:05 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> hppavilion[1]: many are Norwegian or British <-- i don't think there are more than two norwegians. and i'm not sure if the other guy is still here.
00:57:15 <ais523> (and not being the spelling that you'd use for either if you were trying to construct a consistent spelling for dipthongs)
00:57:35 <ais523> rune was norwegian, I think, but I haven't seen them for ages
00:57:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oh also swiss, when he comes around.
00:58:44 <hppavilion[1]> (what is the highest-order thong used in any common languages?)
00:59:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: instead of the crazy attempts to invent alternate spelling system, at least one person has started to devise an alternate English _dialect_ where the pronunciation is connected better to the writing yet is also more or less understandible as a dialect of English by existing speakers,
00:59:09 <oerjan> <ais523> wob_jonas: "note" and "caught" are pretty different, though [...] <-- iirc they're much more different in english (RP) than in average american
00:59:30 <wob_jonas> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/mark/regeng/
00:59:46 <wob_jonas> but it's a really good idea and they started it the right way
00:59:48 <shachaf> oerjan: "General American" plz twh thx
00:59:49 <ais523> oerjan: I'm talking about british english here, I'm much less experienced with american
01:00:10 <ais523> [an error occurred while processing this directive]
01:00:13 <ais523> followed by a 404 message
01:00:57 <wob_jonas> I have a pronunciation that is more close to British in many ways, probably because it's influenced by my learning English in early years (at which time obviously I didn't chat on the internet in English)
01:01:20 <wob_jonas> but of course it's also a horrible English as second language pronunciation with Hungarian accent
01:01:24 <shachaf> I think they're pretty different, anyway.
01:01:37 <oerjan> <ais523> I guess the vowel in "caught" is also often spelled or <-- only possibly equivalent in non-rhotic accents?
01:01:58 <ais523> oerjan: I think that's pretty much the definition of a non-rhotic accent
01:03:07 <ais523> oerjan: I find it hard to hear the difference between the rhotic and non-rhotic pronouncation though because they both have the same meaning in English
01:03:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, non-rhotic is most of it, but also the rest of vowels (that don't have r in them) are more like British
01:03:11 <ais523> so my brain didn't learn the difference
01:03:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's why I can't just learn to _pronounce_ a rhotic pronunciation, even though I'd prefer to
01:04:25 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> What's the worst sound? <-- czech r hacek hth
01:04:28 <wob_jonas> It's hard to bring myself to actually pronounce any "r" that isn't pronounced in non-rhotic
01:04:33 <ais523> "air" is another rhotic tripthong I think
01:05:22 <\oren\> caught is the same as cot
01:06:32 <ais523> \oren\: that's the caught/cot merger
01:06:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's the "there" vowel
01:06:42 <ais523> it's not about rhoticity, as much as short 'o' becoming long 'or'
01:07:06 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: "arr", like a pirate?
01:07:48 <hppavilion[1]> (If we assume that any vowel can be made rhotic and that a rhotic vowel is still a vowel, then you should be able to arbitrarily rhotate any vowel)
01:07:55 <\oren\> so would that be a taught-tort merger?
01:08:13 <hppavilion[1]> (In math, r's must be pronounced with omega rhotations)
01:08:41 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: "General American" plz twh thx <-- OKAY
01:09:08 <\oren\> I speak something like GA but with even more mergers
01:10:01 * boily thwacke hppavilion[1]. 0.95 shachafs.
01:10:22 <\oren\> father bother taught cot all have the same vowel
01:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> If General American becomes too dense, we'll reach a singularity and all possible mergers will occur
01:11:04 <boily> \oren\: I beg to francophonely disagree hth
01:11:10 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: would we have to speak in Unary?
01:11:14 <boily> shachaf: cf. erhotic.
01:11:15 <shachaf> You highlighted me so I thought you thought I made a pun.
01:11:25 <shachaf> You should use some other unit that doesn't highlight me.
01:11:53 * oerjan thinks that at school, we were supposedly learning a british pronunciation of english. but when at 18 i got to travel to australia, people there commented on how american we sounded.
01:12:00 <ais523> sounds sort-of like a sheaf
01:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, "father" and "brother" seem like they should have similar sounds, but they don't
01:12:03 <ais523> so more imperial than metric
01:12:07 <boily> hppavilion[1]: shachaf gets hilited on the chaf part.
01:12:14 <ais523> I guess for it to be a metric unit of measurement shachaf would have to become a world-famous scientist
01:12:45 <ais523> oerjan: the thing that gives it away to me is normally word choice
01:12:51 <ais523> like people saying "bathroom" to mean "toilet"
01:13:04 <ais523> this is a common result of people learning English from American soaps
01:13:16 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:13:20 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it's Taneb who's the inventor
01:13:20 <shachaf> ais523: My coworkers always made fun of a British coworker.
01:13:32 <shachaf> He would say that he washes his hands in the toilet.
01:13:38 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
01:14:00 <ais523> shachaf: I dont think in British English you'd word it like that
01:14:04 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, and histograms.
01:14:11 <ais523> a sensible sentence would be along the lines of "I'm going to the toilets to wash my hands"
01:14:17 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it.
01:14:18 <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, maybe they just made fun of him by rephrasing it.
01:14:23 <\oren\> all in all my dialect has 13 vowels and four vowel-like consonants
01:14:34 <shachaf> ais523: Anyway we also got the word "sauzzled" from him, and others.
01:14:42 <shachaf> You wouldn't spell it like that either.
01:14:44 <ais523> shachaf: the usual spelling I see is "sozzled"
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01:14:52 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn torus/Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it so he'd have something to drink his coffee out of.
01:14:53 <ais523> it's not a very common word, though
01:14:59 <ais523> given that it's slang, and fairly rare slang at that
01:15:17 <shachaf> But it's widely understood, right?
01:15:18 <ais523> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sozzled
01:15:23 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Can't figure out what that means <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%98 (hm i'd never heard that narvik thing before)
01:15:25 <ais523> yes, widely understood at least
01:15:31 <ais523> we just have so many different words for being drunk
01:15:45 <ais523> that any particular word is fairly uncommonly used unless it's very commonly used
01:15:56 <ais523> (err, urban dictionary is probably NSFW for language)
01:16:12 <ais523> (so you might not want to check it at work)
01:16:28 <shachaf> ais523: E.g. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VqbkoZcfbEg/V5l94B-IxQI/AAAAAAAABQQ/CaflMWl7Z2o8dk4zkQfB4iXFSclFlTI5ACL0B/w1056-h1408-no
01:16:50 <ais523> what an uninformative URL
01:17:32 <\oren\> it's an image but doesn't even end in a image format
01:17:47 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: If I didn't already know for a fact that googleusercontent.com was actually owned by google, I'd be suspicious
01:18:12 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm suspicious anyway
01:18:20 <ais523> because the whole point of that domain is that it's for content that google doesn't trust
01:18:35 <ais523> (it's a different domain so that it violates the same origin policy if it tries to do anything with google cookies or the like)
01:18:49 <shachaf> I copied it from a Google Hangout conversation.
01:19:00 <quintopia> so let's see...i missed a discussion of vowel pronunciations, shachaf's grumpiness, and the differences between american and british...anything interesting?
01:19:10 <shachaf> The URL was even worse before, but I removed the bit at the end that said "account id"
01:19:29 <\oren\> my spelling system also solves the metre meter debacle by spelling it mEtR
01:19:30 <ais523> quintopia: it depends on what you consider interesting, I guess
01:19:49 <shachaf> Spelling ought to be completely distinct from pronunciation.
01:19:49 <quintopia> ais523: what do you consider interesting?
01:19:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'd probably go with googlelmages.info, and always write it in almost-full caps like GOOGLElMAGES.INFO
01:19:57 <ais523> we've had some BF Joust stuff too (mostly because Lymia went and wrote a program generator that writes a program to beat the entire hill)
01:20:19 <ais523> quintopia: I consider the BF Joust stuff to be interesting, if fairly annoying
01:20:20 <\oren\> hmm does my dialect even distinguish t and d in words?
01:20:31 <quintopia> ais523: i was here for that, i think?
01:20:39 <ais523> the English stuff is offtopic but interesting enough to not enforce topicality on it
01:20:45 <hppavilion[1]> (If Americans don't want to use the metric system, why did we insist on changing the spelling of metre?)
01:20:55 <ais523> (that said, something has to be both highly offtopic and highly uninteresting before we enforce topicality here)
01:21:04 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: because f the french
01:21:12 <shachaf> There was also some discussion of Feather
01:21:16 <\oren\> holy shit I have a batter-badder merger
01:21:19 <ais523> fortunately I missed that
01:21:20 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I'm pretty sure America likes the french
01:21:21 <shachaf> But ais523 would rather have an offtopic-conversation.
01:21:39 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: how did you come to this conclusion?
01:21:39 <shachaf> Not sure where that German influence came from.
01:21:42 <ais523> \oren\: t/d merge isn't that rare
01:21:54 <ais523> shachaf: is the Feather stuff even worth looking at?
01:21:56 <oerjan> <ais523> I guess for it to be a metric unit of measurement shachaf would have to become a world-famous scientist <-- . o O ( who's the most obscure scientist with an SI unit )
01:22:05 <shachaf> ais523: I don't think there was more than a line or two.
01:22:06 <hppavilion[1]> Personally, I think we should go back to the Old English system of spelling where you can do pretty much whatever you want and nobody complains
01:22:11 <ais523> I have half a feeling that nobody else can really discuss Feather as it is because although I don't understand it either, I know more about it than most people
01:22:31 <shachaf> oerjan: Surely the smoot is at least as well-known as some SI units.
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01:22:42 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: then you are pretty sure the pre-americans of 225 years ago liked the revolutionary pre-napoleonic french of 225 years ago
01:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> "I know much more about it than the normal person, having only a negative 432 IQ when thinking about it"
01:23:21 <ais523> like, I'm not even sure if I ever wrote down my big list of things a language needs to be Feather
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01:23:27 <ais523> because doing so would require thinking about Feather
01:23:28 <hppavilion[1]> But most Americans can't really tell the difference between 225 years ago and today except in technology
01:23:31 <ais523> ugh, I'm on the verge of thinking about it right now
01:23:46 <quintopia> ais523: you never could even explain it in enough detail that anyone could even begin to infer such things
01:23:53 <hppavilion[1]> If you asked me before that, I almost would've said Napoleon died long before the Revolutionary War
01:24:27 <ais523> this is at least partly because all the more concrete bits keep changing to fit the more conceptual bits in
01:24:47 <ais523> the time travel model itself is very firm and easy to explain
01:24:48 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: now you're begging to question again. how do you know what most americans *today* believe and understand?
01:25:11 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Isn't the entire point of Feather that it's impossible, even with an oracle for all the biggest distinct undecidable problems?
01:25:17 <ais523> (it's basically "change the value that a clone function returned via rewinding in time to the point it was run, then continuing")
01:25:30 <ais523> admittedly I haven't figured out how to make it work, but it's meant to be possible
01:25:37 <ais523> a time paradox would typically lead to an infinite loop
01:25:51 <ais523> the bigger problem is that a time loop can happen despite the lack of a contradiction
01:26:06 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: so am i, but i get the sense my understanding of american zeitgeist differs from yours
01:26:14 <ais523> i.e. the problem is, when you go back and change the past, you need to change it in such a way that you decide not to use your time machine in the future
01:26:23 <ais523> ideally without changing anything else
01:26:35 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Are stable time loops possible? And are paradoxes the only (or best) way to execute an infinite loop?
01:26:40 <ais523> some fixes to this problem involve, say, checking if an object has a method, and if not, going back in time to add it
01:27:02 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: stable time loops are possible in the same way that terminating recursion is possible
01:27:06 <ais523> you need to find a base case somewhere
01:27:20 <ais523> I was planning to have regular recursion too for loops
01:27:21 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: So it isn't a proper stable time loop then
01:27:24 <ais523> Feather isn't intentionally hard to use
01:27:41 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well, the thing is
01:27:50 <ais523> suppose you write an infinite recursion
01:27:55 <ais523> you can approximate that with a finite recursion, right?
01:28:17 <ais523> (depending on the algo the approximation might either be good, or terrible, but the point is that you get a better approximation by cutting it off after a larger number of steps)
01:28:51 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: my sense of the american zeitgeist with regards to france is "it's far enough away to mostly ignore, but you'd think they'd help with the war more given their muslim problem. also they spell and pronounce everything all wrong"
01:29:02 * ais523 is waiting for a yes, or possibly no
01:29:34 <ais523> you don't get to ask me about Feather without having to think about the consequences too!
01:30:32 <oerjan> <\oren\> holy shit I have a batter-badder merger <-- coincidentally i learned just the other day about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping
01:31:51 <ais523> …did I break hppavilion[1] already? I haven't even really reached the mindscrewy part yet
01:33:08 <quintopia> feather does that...it's paradoxically quite the heavy burden to bear
01:44:37 <oerjan> * ais523 is waiting for a yes, or possibly no <-- it works in denotational semantics
01:45:04 <ais523> oerjan: yes, I know it works
01:45:10 <ais523> I just don't know whether hppavilion[1] knows it works
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04:36:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49632&oldid=49623 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+591)
04:36:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49633&oldid=49632 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-11)
05:01:46 <lambdabot> CYVR 250300Z 31006KT 30SM FEW240 20/15 A3012 RMK CI1 SLP202 DENSITY ALT 300FT
05:53:53 <\oren\> If I got a raise, does that indicate that I'm doing a good job?
05:59:25 <lifthrasiir> normally there is only a slight correlation
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06:06:38 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: really? what determines pay increases normally?
06:07:15 <pikhq> Flapping of butterflies, near as I can figure.
06:08:01 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: the duration of employment so far, employer's urge to share the profits, some quantum entanglements, etc
06:10:01 <\oren\> I see. maybe I'll just look up some sort of management book
06:11:05 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: more seriously, the most important factor determining your wage is the wage at the first month (or year)
06:11:43 <lifthrasiir> there are always exceptions, but normally the increments (even after incentives) are not large enough to make up for the loss at the first wage
06:12:07 <lifthrasiir> and the sad thing is the first wage is often determined by very irrational factors
06:12:32 <\oren\> Hmm... well, my pay when I started this job was 70 kilodollars, and it's been raised to 80, but I wasn't told why
06:12:57 <zzo38> You should ask them why
06:13:02 <zzo38> That is how you can learn.
06:13:19 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: no, I got this job last year
06:13:24 <zzo38> One possibility is inflation I suppose
06:13:56 <\oren\> zzo38: yeah, this year, the canadian dollar went down after the price of gasoline
06:14:39 <lifthrasiir> yeah, the durational increment is one way to counter inflation
06:14:54 <zzo38> I live in Canada, but I do not pay attention to that kinds of stuff; I do not drive a car
06:15:18 <lifthrasiir> when you've got no explanation it is most likely explanation: you've got the standard increment
06:15:42 <lifthrasiir> I guess asking about the true explanation doesn't harm, though
06:17:53 <shachaf> It probably means that your employer thought you were underpaid, and enough to worry about retention.
06:18:57 <shachaf> Whether that's due to re-evaluating how good of a job you were doing or market changes or other reasons, who knows.
06:19:16 <\oren\> shachaf: actually, now that I think about it, maybe they noticed those google people stalking my linkedin
06:20:31 <shachaf> Well, Google pays more than that even for entry-level engineering employees.
06:20:41 <lifthrasiir> I'm not on linkedin (for my personal policy to avoid SNSes anyway) and was contacted three or four times so far
06:20:52 <pikhq> Though, Google also tends to employ in areas where 80 kilodollars is starvation wages.
06:20:56 <shachaf> Even for interns, I think. And so do most silly valley employers as far as I know.
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06:21:17 <lifthrasiir> even 120k$ will barely make a cut, I guess
06:21:40 <shachaf> Top internship offers in silly valley: https://twitter.com/rodneyfolz/status/724787290824798209
06:22:04 <pikhq> 120k$ goes somewhere from not far at all to, well, living pretty comfortably. Depending strongly on personal choices.
06:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, I bet I could get my school to unblock PornHub by justifying it with http://www.pornhub.com/insights/ (actually 100% SFW, surprisingly, assuming that sex-related words describing what people search for for purely statistical reasons aren't considered NSFW)
06:22:58 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: my average monthly expense does not exceed 1200$, I think, and I'm paid several times more (less than \oren\ however ;) so I'm pretty comfortable with that
06:23:16 <hppavilion[1]> (They'd have a lot of trouble figuring it out, and I'd need to have a justification along the lines of "I need it for an essay", but it would work)
06:23:36 <shachaf> When I moved to the bay area in 2010, my expenses were ~$1000/month.
06:23:55 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Yeah, if that's your typical monthly expenses $50k is pretty nice.
06:24:20 <shachaf> Admittedly my standard of living would have been higher for the same cost somewhere else.
06:24:23 <\oren\> pikhq: I made the personal choice to keep living in my parents' house with no rent, hence my only expenses are food, cell phone and video games
06:24:33 <hppavilion[1]> ...wow, http://www.pornhub.com/emoji is just wrong
06:24:35 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: it's weird that the price level of Korea is actually considerably high
06:24:47 <pikhq> Good god does cost of living effect the value of money.
06:25:14 <shachaf> If income scales with cost of living, it probably makes sense to live in the highest cost-of-living area.
06:25:19 <shachaf> Of course, it usually doesn't.
06:25:30 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: the effect of higher price level seems to affect multi-person households, though
06:27:39 <pikhq> I suspect that *on average* the income to cost of living ratio is best near reasonably sizable cities but not the huge ones, in the US. (think Kansas City)
06:27:46 <\oren\> I mean yeah, living at your parents' house as an adult is sometimes considered.. pathetic, but most people in my generation are doing it anyway...
06:28:12 <pikhq> \oren\: Maybe pathetic by some, but by current generation standards it's hardly noteworthy.
06:28:32 <pikhq> Particularly if you've got a paying job.
06:29:03 <lifthrasiir> living alone is a bit hard, especially when you haven't lived alone at all
06:29:20 <\oren\> My parents left home at like 18 and got their own apartments and cars and such
06:29:25 <lifthrasiir> I was on dorms for some decades and I was quite comfortable living alone
06:29:49 <shachaf> \oren\: Anyway I bet you could be making a lot more money elsewhere if you cared to.
06:29:54 <pikhq> When my mom was my age, she had 4 kids.
06:30:19 <pikhq> shachaf: Possibly, but not relative to cost of living for him.
06:30:27 <lifthrasiir> I *had* to live with parents when I've initially graduated, but I got frustrated enough that I've got a shared house next year
06:30:47 <pikhq> shachaf: $80k *and living in his parents house*. Hard to beat. :)
06:31:30 <lifthrasiir> I wouldn't be surprised that \oren\ can put 90% of one's income to the saving account ;)
06:31:48 * pikhq wishes he made $62k in St Louis.
06:31:59 <pikhq> ... Granted, at $55k I lived like a king there.
06:32:37 <pikhq> Oh, $750 rent, how I miss thee.
06:32:56 <\oren\> rent in toronto is typically $2000/mo
06:33:49 <pikhq> Not *quite* Bay Area madness, but that's not far off.
06:34:06 <shachaf> In Berkeley I pay <$1500/month for a 1br apartment.
06:34:20 <shachaf> Which I think is somewhat below market.
06:34:39 <shachaf> Admittedly it's not the highest-quality of apartments. But it's also walking distance to BART and to the office I work at.
06:34:52 <\oren\> you can get it to 1400 if you're willing to take an hour commute to work in the city centre
06:36:32 <lifthrasiir> depending on public transport quality it might be actually a good trade-off
06:36:52 <\oren\> public transit in toronto? horrendous
06:37:43 <\oren\> I take the subway to work currently, and over a distnce of 5 km, it's only marginally faster than walking
06:38:12 <lifthrasiir> my house and workplace are about 20km apart, but there is a crazy subway inbetween which takes only <15 min (!!!!!)
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06:39:30 <shachaf> trains discussion in #trains hth
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06:41:39 <\oren\> this summer the streetcar is down because... I have no idea why. they just decided to tear up the tracks
06:42:19 <\oren\> so instead there is a bus, which is much slower than walking because of traffic
06:43:07 <\oren\> traffic made worse because of the construction in the middle of the road
06:43:54 <lifthrasiir> shachaf: I tend not to talk much about trains because I know of several train maniacs (I tend to mock them with that word, hah) and every time I say about trains I cannot switch the topic to others
06:43:59 <\oren\> and I bet they'll leave giant potholes in the road till next summer
06:44:15 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: That's why it's a separate channel.
06:44:27 <shachaf> So you can not pay attention to it when you don't want to.
06:44:48 <lifthrasiir> ...wait so you are assuming that I'm supposed to join that channel already
06:49:40 <shachaf> You're not supposed to do anything.
06:52:38 <lifthrasiir> ah, thought that I'm supposed to join to that channel and *ignore* any conversation
06:52:57 <shachaf> You can do whatever you like.
07:15:44 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, we must also define Hellostructure, Yoctostructure, Zeptostructure, Attostructure, Femtostructure, Picostructure, Nanostructure, Microstructure, Millistructure, Centistructure, Decistructure, Dekastructure, Hectostructure, Kilostructure, Gigastructure, Terastructure, Petastructure, Exastructure, Zetastructure, Yottastructure, and Hellastructure as well if we wish to use it
07:16:01 <hppavilion[1]> Along with, perhaps, Myriastructure and Dimistructure
07:20:51 <hppavilion[1]> Wikipedia's article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megagon has the example image labeled "a regular megagon"
07:21:19 <hppavilion[1]> If you open the image, it says in the description that it's just a black circle
07:26:27 <myname> i first sumbled upon it on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/65537-gon
07:27:01 <myname> if you open the actual svg, it _is_ a circle
07:28:54 <pikhq> Nope, it is clearly not a circle.
07:29:22 <pikhq> The SVG has a big ol' <polygon> in it.
07:29:50 <myname> oh, sl someone actually did it?
07:30:21 <pikhq> Yup. Checked the source.
07:34:47 <Jafet> what is the minimum n for which a 1-pixel-wide regular n-gon, on a typical display, is indistinguishable from a circle?
07:39:05 <Taneb> 1 pixel wide isn't very wide at all
07:40:01 <Jafet> that was just a warm-up problem, of course
07:40:09 <int-e> "indistinguishable" by what means, and what is a "typical display"
07:40:14 <Jafet> (3, 4 if anti-aliased?)
07:41:11 <int-e> in this era of billion pixel displays they may all be invisible on one of those ;-)
07:48:12 <Jafet> what is the minimum n for which a solid regular n-gon is indistinguishable from a disk, if both are rendered 1000 pixels in diameter with 256-level linear grayscale anti-aliasing?
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08:22:44 <int-e> Do I get to choose a non-integral offset for rendering, and can I distinguish all grey levels?
08:26:43 <int-e> (Somehow these clarification questions are more interesting to me than the problem itself... I can do estimates like when the polygon border never differs by more than 0.1 pixels from the circle, but the actual question seems to require doing the actual rendering, at least partially, for various n and adjusted radii... doing that efficiently will get messy)
08:33:05 <izabera> can you imagine if another fermat prime is ever found
08:33:18 <izabera> someone will have to construct it as a regular polygon
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08:48:10 <Jafet> the next constructible p-gon candidate is 2^2^33 + 1, apparently
08:51:21 <Jafet> int-e: since the relative distances of the vertices (and pixel fragment areas) are irrational, any solution will probably have non-zero wiggle room for the offsets (both linear and angular)
08:52:23 <Jafet> maybe this can be provably solved by relaxation to some linear programs...
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09:35:50 <b_jonas> `bardworthlist http://www.bardsworth.com/?comic=the-simplest-solution
09:35:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bardworthlist: not found
10:15:20 <int-e> Jafet: yes I got to the point where there's wiggle room; that's what I called messy.
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11:48:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49634&oldid=43000 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */ obviously
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13:49:15 <MDude> https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/14034901_329713930752185_4290839317358935232_n.jpg?oh=1572f16b3581b724deb362f55e644180&oe=5857D782/join #lainchan
13:49:42 <MDude> COmptuer you need to actually pay attention when I do things like ctrl+a to high light text.
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13:54:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49635&oldid=49158 * Erikkonstas * (+208) File argument
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14:38:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49636&oldid=49633 * TuxCrafting * (+39) i dont think you want this in a `pre` block
14:42:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49637&oldid=49636 * TuxCrafting * (+13) It's not Markdown ._.
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15:31:14 <oerjan> b_jonas: i recommend correct spelling hth
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15:43:36 <oerjan> panel 2 of today's darths & droids doesn't make sense to me. have they managed to mix up annie and sally?
15:44:16 <oerjan> otoh sally is in university now, isn't she...
15:44:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49638&oldid=49119 * Erikkonstas * (+710) Joke? Not designed as a joke, though.
15:45:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49639&oldid=49635 * Erikkonstas * (+28)
15:45:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49640&oldid=49062 * Erikkonstas * (+21) MSF- in!
15:45:56 <oerjan> or wait... annie and _ben_?
15:46:20 * oerjan assumes he'll find out in the forum.
15:47:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!SuperPrime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49641&oldid=49034 * Erikkonstas * (+0)
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16:35:18 <\oren\> man we need more people in other time zones.
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16:37:11 <\oren\> Proposal: put all of north america on one time zone
16:37:31 <\oren\> and all of europe on another
16:37:52 <oerjan> (re above: apparently no one in the forum thought it was weird)
16:38:00 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters.
16:38:15 <oerjan> WE ALL KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT TIME ZONES
16:38:45 <\oren\> is france on the same time zone as poland yet?
16:39:06 <oerjan> there's just an hour difference, it's not like it'll matter
16:39:19 <\oren\> actually, it looks like they are
16:39:21 <oerjan> if poland even is eastern - let me check
16:39:32 <lambdabot> Local time for FreeFull is Thu Aug 25 16:39:32 2016
16:39:52 <oerjan> that's not poland. oh right he's actually in the uk isn't he
16:40:09 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Thu Aug 25 18:40:09 2016
16:40:19 <oerjan> that's better. finland is eastern.
16:40:33 <\oren\> the uk is weird on the map I found. It's not on the same time zone as spain
16:41:10 <oerjan> the uk isn't weird by definition, that's where the zero meridian is.
16:41:18 <\oren\> which means that you can change time zones by flying directly south
16:41:35 <oerjan> the spanish decided to join their french neighbors, though.
16:42:29 <oerjan> the middle zone contains a lot more countries than you'd think just by geography.
16:43:13 <oerjan> presumably because it is convenient for neighbors to have the same one.
16:45:32 <\oren\> well maybe everyone in eurasia should use Moscow time
16:46:04 <FreeFull> Yeah, there is a lot of countries in UTC+1
16:46:51 <FreeFull> Both France and Spain should be in UTC+0 by geographyy
16:47:05 <FreeFull> But they're in UTC+1 for some reason
16:49:04 <FreeFull> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Standard_World_Time_Zones.png
16:49:06 <\oren\> well actually, now that britain isn't in the EU, it whould be easier for the EU to have a single time zone
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16:49:51 <\oren\> and we should have as few of them as possible
16:49:56 <FreeFull> \oren\: You'd need to change the timezone of Greece, Bulgaria and Romania though
16:50:55 <FreeFull> Australia is split into UTC+8.75, UTC+9.5 and UTC+10
16:50:57 <\oren\> they should be the same as either china or india
16:52:23 <\oren\> I don't really care what the offsets are, I just think there should be fewer zones
16:52:47 <\oren\> india and china each have only one zone
16:52:50 <oerjan> standardize on UTC+3.14 everywhere
16:53:08 <\oren\> despite their horizontal extent
16:53:12 <b_jonas> FreeFull: WHAT? isn't Australia split to three zones, two of which are integer hours offset?
16:54:20 <FreeFull> b_jonas: Oh, the map I'm looking at might not be fully correct
16:54:58 <quintopia> timezones are great and we should have as many as possible :D
16:55:38 <b_jonas> Australia is split to +0800 (Perth), +0930 (empty desert), and +1000 (where all the big cities are)
16:56:06 <\oren\> ok, how about eight time zones: San Francisco, New York, London, Berlin, Moscow, Delhi, Beijing, Tokyo
16:57:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: that doesn't work. you can't have all of the African tropics switch DST backwards
16:58:10 <\oren\> ok, how about eight time zones in the northern hemisphere, and the southern hemisphere does somthign else
16:58:26 <quintopia> why do we need to put entire countries or territories in the same time zone? let's just inconvenience everyone proportional to their size and have 24 time zones which exactly correspond with 15 degree multiple longitude lines
16:58:57 <\oren\> quintopia: mostly for easy referencing
16:59:26 <\oren\> like "I'm in China, therefore, beijing time, all the time"
17:00:14 <quintopia> it would be a lot easier to reference by just looking up a place's longitude and not having to do any special casing
17:00:32 <quintopia> just put gps chips in every clock too
17:02:24 <\oren\> or maybe all of north america should use Dallas time
17:03:54 <FreeFull> It'd be cool if all of the world used actual local time, like how it was back in the time of sun dials
17:04:22 <quintopia> actually that would suck. did suck. that's why zones were invented
17:05:21 <\oren\> well, people actually noticed it when they began traveling fast by train
17:05:37 <b_jonas> FreeFull: that was more like in the time of temple clocks
17:05:53 <b_jonas> they used local times everywhere, which was horrible for following train travel timetables
17:05:59 <quintopia> hard to put together a train time table when every town uses a differentime
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17:37:08 <\oren\> I wonder why all my spaceplanes hav twin tails
17:38:45 <quintopia> you played a lot of sonic when you were younger
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18:55:46 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a way to draw a regular hexagram in one stroke the same way you can a regular pentagram?
18:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm going to guess no, and that that's true for any n-gram where n is even)
18:56:46 <Taneb> It's two triangles
18:56:48 <nortti> there is a rule for draw a graph without taking an edge twice, but I forget what it is
18:56:50 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, looks like I'm wrong; you can do it with an octagram
18:57:29 <Taneb> nortti, there must be either zero or precisely two nodes with odd degree
18:57:52 <Taneb> If zero, it makes a loop
18:57:54 <nortti> so, for a hexagram, yes
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19:28:21 <hppavilion[1]> If there are pronouns for nouns, why are there not proverbs for verbs or proadjectives for adjectives or proadverbs for adverbs?
19:37:01 <nortti> there are pro-forms, which are more general version of pronouns
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19:45:38 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: just draw the inner hexagon first then add the points to the sides.
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19:47:15 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: furthermore, after 6 vertices, there is not "a" regular n-gram. there are many different n-grams for each n.
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19:49:18 <quintopia> made any useful or fun code lately?
19:49:45 <int-e> heh, Quickbooks is following me around: http://thedevilspanties.com/archives/10418
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19:51:39 <ais523> I have an esolang idea but I haven't written any of it down
19:51:49 <HackEgo> 104) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there. \ 888) <quintopia> is there a way to tag things on wikipedia as "wtf this makes no sense"? <elliott> quintopia: {{featured article}}
19:52:00 <nortti> ais523: is this margis enough space to contain it?
19:52:33 <ais523> nortti: it should have a fairly short description in English
19:52:40 <ais523> I just need to translate it from internal-thought-language
19:54:31 <ais523> I like it because it's very simple and helps make progress towards at least two of the ideas I had
19:54:42 <ais523> I'm not sure if I should write an interp myself or leave it to someone else
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19:56:28 <ais523> this is the sort of language that's much easier to compile than interpret
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19:56:36 <ais523> and I'd hate to write a compiler in BCT
19:56:58 <quintopia> i wasn't being particularly serious
19:59:56 <int-e> irony transports really well on IRC
20:00:16 <quintopia> probably wasn't particularly ironic either
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20:03:03 * wob_jonas watches expectantly whether ais523 writes the idea up
20:03:28 <ais523> I'm thinking about the details atm
20:03:31 <quintopia> don't hold your breath man. give him some space.
20:04:20 <quintopia> sometimes it takes years to write up ideas
20:04:36 <quintopia> sometimes it takes indefinitely long (e.g. Feather)
20:08:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Madore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49642&oldid=45477 * B jonas * (+21)
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20:32:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49643&oldid=35250 * Mychal * (+543) Added Io implementation
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21:00:24 <ais523> bleh, I need to do this right
21:00:36 <ais523> it's one of those things that once I define the language, it'll be hard to change
21:00:45 <ais523> and there are certain properties I want it to have that I'm not sure it wil have
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21:15:11 <wob_jonas> there are mature languages that have ugly faults that are very hard to fix now, and would have been trivial to fix with no drawbacks when they were first designed
21:15:20 <wob_jonas> compatibility is a bitch, but we depend on it
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21:22:05 <izabera> you have a list of words and you must produce a number N in [3,5] and a list of 10 letters (which can be repeated) such that there are at least X words in your list that are at least N letters long that can be written by using only letters in your list
21:25:05 <quintopia> ais523: you can always just start over if you get things wrong. look at python 3.x
21:25:33 <ais523> wob_jonas: in esolangs there are other issues
21:25:41 <ais523> e.g. escaping syntax in Underload
21:25:47 <ais523> which was in the original spec but never implemetned
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21:26:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, that sort of things happens even in non-esolangs
21:26:56 <pikhq> And the infamous EOF issues with Brainfuck.
21:27:08 <ais523> pikhq: I don't think those were ever actually resolved though
21:27:16 <ais523> you could argue about EOF issues in C
21:27:18 <izabera> word list is english dictionary, my number is 3, my list is A B C A D E G A I D and these words are at least 3 letters long: decade bed dice ...
21:27:38 <pikhq> Ah. Yeah, EOF in Brainfuck was not resolved, the status quo is "-1, 0, or no change; pick one"
21:27:49 <ais523> (specifially, what happens if you read EOF from a terminal and then read again; the C spec implies you should get EOF again, on Linux/UNIX you can get data though)
21:27:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: as one of the more famous examples (that is luckiliy mostly a thing of the past) is the original meaning of the export keyword in C++93 which has to do with templates and separate compilation and almost nobody implemented it
21:28:40 <ais523> I asked Usenet about it at one point, because it was an interesting question
21:28:52 <ais523> the basic issue is that the concept of "end of file" doesn't really apply to unix/linux syscalls
21:28:59 <ais523> they have a "no data" return but it doesn't mean the same thing
21:29:01 <pikhq> ais523: Not especially the case: if you're using stdio routines, POSIX says you keep getting EOF.
21:29:28 <ais523> pikhq: I think I've seen a file spontaneously un-EOF using stdio
21:29:32 <ais523> I might be misremembering though
21:29:38 <pikhq> Because reading an EOF from the terminal via a syscall, has stdio set the EOF flag.
21:29:39 <pikhq> Well, either I'm missing something or that was broken.
21:29:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: while we're there, is it true that on some unices you could lseek a terminal and get success?
21:30:04 <ais523> it may be that the EOF flag stays set but getchar returns non-EOF
21:30:12 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise mte
21:30:21 <ais523> I'd expect it to be a no-op with an incorrect return value
21:30:38 <wob_jonas> I've heard a rumour about that, and it's scary because I'd like a way to test whether a file descriptor can be seeked (so that a program can use a faster algorithm if it can be seeked, or a slower and more memory-consuming one if it can't).
21:30:58 <pikhq> ais523: Both POSIX and C say that's invalid, but it's possible for an implementation to be invalid.
21:31:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: the rumour was that it read and wrote some sort of byte counter that was also incremented when you read (or written, I dunno) bytes to the terminal
21:31:12 <wob_jonas> a completely meaningless counter that is
21:31:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: what's more interesting is not whether you can seek a terminal, but whether you can tell a terminal
21:31:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: I said lseek. that's the syscall behind both seek and tell.
21:32:04 <wob_jonas> there's no separate tell syscall, you just call lseek with 0 offset and SEEK_CUR directionality
21:32:10 <pikhq> "The behavior of lseek() on devices which are incapable of seeking is implementation-defined." LOL.
21:32:44 <wob_jonas> pikhq: they SORT OF need to say that because of tape drives that can somewhat seek but not arbitrarily like a hard disk or a regular file
21:33:10 <ais523> pikhq: I just tested, the problem is with fgets
21:33:26 <ais523> if it reads an EOF it sets the EOF flag to 1
21:33:36 <ais523> but otherwise acts as though the EOF wasn't there
21:33:41 <ais523> e.g. it keeps returning data if the data is present
21:33:57 <pikhq> Holy hell, that's actually in POSIX.
21:34:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: can you clear that flag with clearerr() or fseek() ?
21:34:14 <ais523> wob_jonas: clearerr() should work, I'd have thought
21:34:26 <pikhq> Correction, that's in ISO C.
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21:34:38 <ais523> also fgets appears to read one read() result at a time; I don't know if it has signal handler handling
21:34:51 <ais523> it's kind-of hard to make a signal handler interrupt the middle of an fgets
21:35:08 <pikhq> fgets per ISO C does not examine the end-of-file indicator, while most other functions do.
21:35:15 <ais523> you could specify unbuffered I/O, then fgets into a buffer which was partly in unmapped memory
21:35:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: would that send a signal as opposed to just an EFAULT with no signal?
21:35:37 <ais523> then you could handle the SIGSEGV via allocating the rest of the buffer
21:35:58 <ais523> I suspect that's technically undefined behaviour though
21:36:09 <ais523> wob_jonas: logically it should send a signal, shouldn't it?
21:36:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think in Linux no syscall raises a SIGSEGV from faulting on a user memory access synchroniously.
21:36:21 <wob_jonas> no, it should return EFAULT I think
21:36:29 <pikhq> ais523: flock() in another thread and then raise a signal in that thread.
21:36:30 <ais523> like, the syscall would efault, but fgets should convert that into a segfault
21:36:39 <ais523> it would segfault if it were using buffered I/O!
21:37:07 <pikhq> (wouldn't interrupt the read(), granted. For that it'd need to be blocked on something.)
21:37:12 <ais523> EFAULT isn't even a legal value from fgets, AFAICT it doesn't set errno
21:37:25 <ais523> what is up with this function!
21:37:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: at that point it's probably implementation-defined, I've no idea what fgets would do
21:38:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: you could try to simulate an interrupted syscall by ptrace with a debugger, breaking on the syscall and sending a signal
21:38:23 <pikhq> POSIX' semantics for fgets errors are "see fgetc", FWIW.
21:39:00 <ais523> If a read error occurs, the error indicator for the stream shall be set, fgets() shall return a null pointer, and shall set errno to indicate the error.
21:39:05 <pikhq> wob_jonas: Not fread.
21:39:10 <ais523> I forgot I had the POSIX manual here as well as the Linux one
21:39:25 <pikhq> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ Helpful advice.
21:39:44 <wob_jonas> posix manual (needs free registration once) => https://www2.opengroup.org/ogsys/catalog/t101
21:39:57 <wob_jonas> linux manual => https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/
21:40:16 <wob_jonas> also glibc manual is relevant => https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/
21:40:40 <wob_jonas> openbsd manual and freebsd manual resp => http://man.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi , http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi
21:40:55 <wob_jonas> if you're connected on the internet, you likely have lots of manuals
21:41:10 <wob_jonas> sure, I also have local copies of some of these for convenience
21:42:10 <ais523> the POSIX manual is in the Ubuntu repos
21:50:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.4030
21:56:43 <wob_jonas> or maybe make an esolang of that name
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22:06:33 <fungot> fizzie: would not work either on some ms-dos compilers. :) i remember.
22:09:42 <FireFly> I didn't know you were around back then, fungot
22:09:42 <fungot> FireFly: i'll look into it later tonight.)
22:10:56 <izabera> ok so in this other irc network there's a game we play
22:11:17 <izabera> bots generates 10 letters which can be repeated, and a number
22:11:38 <izabera> and you must write as many words as possible with those letters, and your words must be at least <num> letters long
22:11:56 <izabera> problem is: the current bot is awful
22:12:26 <izabera> e.g. it just produced this list N D S L Z R A U U K and you had to write words that are at least 5 letters long
22:12:43 <izabera> and exactly 0 italian words fit that criterion
22:13:27 <wob_jonas> are you allowed to add accent to the letters?
22:13:47 <izabera> e.g. "sara" has 2 a but that list only has 1
22:13:57 <izabera> yeah in that list there are two u's
22:14:08 <izabera> in that sense they can be repeated
22:14:18 <wob_jonas> so you'd need to find something that ands in an "a" and has a "u" in it?
22:14:35 <izabera> yes or maybe no a and two u's
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22:15:01 <izabera> so my problem is: how do i generate better lists of letters?
22:15:39 <wob_jonas> izabera: are you allowed to add accents to those letters?
22:16:00 <izabera> we use a dictionary that has many unaccented versions of accented words
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22:17:26 <wob_jonas> fungot: idekinn hideg éj sziszeg aztán
22:17:27 <fungot> wob_jonas: 4 cakeprophet: bf ( thread-id 3) ( 4 5 ( ( 1 3)...
22:19:05 <fungot> wob_jonas: ( a regex literal would not be allowed in sisc?
22:19:34 -!- polybot has changed nick to moon.
22:19:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: CakeProphet was a regular here a while back
22:19:46 -!- moon has changed nick to moonythedwarf.
22:20:00 <ais523> IIRC the full username was "the prophet wizard of the crayon cake" but it doesn't fit on IRC
22:21:02 <ais523> izabera: my algorithm would be this: generate letters according to letter frequencies of the language, then check a wordlist to see how many words there are (computers can do this quickly)
22:21:05 <ais523> if it's not enough, reroll
22:21:15 <ais523> actually I already have a program for solving this problem
22:21:29 <ais523> it works like this: I have a wordlist where the words have had their letters sorted into alphabetical order
22:21:50 <ais523> then I just create a regex a?d?k?l?n?r?s?u?u?z?
22:21:57 <ais523> and regex it against the wordlist
22:23:04 <ais523> there are 20 5-letter-or-longer words that fit these rules in English (using my English word list)
22:23:12 <wob_jonas> or just roll the 16 boggle master cubes and discard 6 at random
22:23:14 <ais523> the vast majority are four-letter words that have been pluralized by adding an s
22:23:57 <ais523> there are two six-letter words: "kudzus" and "drunks" (both five-letter words that were pluralized by adding an s)
22:24:09 <ais523> I don't have such a wordlist for Italian but it should be easy enough to generate one
22:24:25 <izabera> thanks a lot that's a very nice hint
22:25:00 <wob_jonas> fungot: Máglyára, ki ellenszegül, minden velsz énekest!
22:25:00 <fungot> wob_jonas: yes it's stupid a 6 can't be applied: it's not a useful religion for developing a http server application
22:25:08 <ais523> of course you need some sort of dictionary to go back from the sorted words to the originals, but that's easy enough to write as well
22:25:40 <ais523> bleh, it's so hard to get out of the habit of seeing foreign words and trying to guess what they mean from the spelling
22:25:42 <izabera> it's fine as long as it matches 20 or more words
22:25:45 <ais523> but with Hungarian there's no point
22:26:05 <ais523> as it'd only work on loanwords
22:26:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: all four of the above are quotes from Arany János poems
22:26:13 <ais523> (admittedly Hungarian does have a lot of loanwords)
22:28:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: the poems should be easy to find, and some of the poems even have translations, you can try to find some on http://www.magyarulbabelben.net/works/hu-en/Arany_J%C3%A1nos-1817 -- I don't know how good translations they are
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22:29:02 <wob_jonas> "Szondi két apródja" has a translation by Makai Ádám, presumably that's a good one because he's famous, I've no idea about the rest
22:29:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: fewer loanwords back then in the 19th century, especially very few loanwords from English
22:30:52 <wob_jonas> also, the quotes alone aren't very meaningful without knowing the whole poem
22:34:00 <fungot> wob_jonas: the interpreter exposes the c library
22:40:22 <wob_jonas> fungot: Anyu, én igyekszem a haragom levetni.
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22:43:29 <wob_jonas> fungot: I find your lack of uptime disturbing
22:48:31 <\oren\> Idea: a multiplayer online game where the protocol between server and client is open, and therefore anyone is welcome to produce their own game client
22:48:54 <\oren\> thus all game logics must be enforced at the server
22:51:27 <\oren\> so some of the metagame would be programming a better/more efficient client
22:52:17 <\oren\> as opposed to most games where using a better client would be considered cheating
22:57:27 <\oren\> E.g. consider a FPS where use of aimbots is not only allowed but encouraged, but the game simulates such things as recoil at the server.
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23:15:11 <wob_jonas> `8-ball when will I be young again?
23:15:49 <oerjan> i don't think it is good with non-yes/no questions
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23:24:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:199.15.233.162]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
23:25:14 <fizzie> I don't know what's with fungot.
23:25:14 <fungot> fizzie: and i think it does
23:25:33 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it was just the reply count limit.
23:35:16 <HackEgo> IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
23:36:09 <fungot> olsner: not? its simplicity is not a procedure
23:36:10 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
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23:48:36 <izabera> ais523: thanks to you, now i have this https://arin.ga/gqBhgB/raw
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23:52:27 <izabera> my dictionary has 282043 words and that thing takes .186s https://arin.ga/NKWiVq/raw
23:54:14 <izabera> https://arin.ga/nhRTKL/raw here it is
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00:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, can I call the number 110,000 "eleven hundred hundred"?
00:24:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MiniStringFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49644&oldid=49638 * Darkrifts * (+364)
00:30:39 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: can you read hiragana?
00:31:47 <pikhq> That is some weird romanization.
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00:33:09 <pikhq> "Jūichiman" would be a more normal Hepburn, no?
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00:46:22 <\oren\> pikhq: I'm sort of using wa-puro romaji
00:48:47 <pikhq> That's pretty scow.
00:49:04 <pikhq> Especially when you're inserting literally unnecessary characters in it.
00:49:20 <pikhq> Even with normal-ish wapuro, that'd be "juuichiman".
00:49:33 <pikhq> Or "juu ichi man" I guess.
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02:06:03 <hppavilion[1]> How is circumcision not classified as genital mutilation?
02:06:48 <hppavilion[1]> To some degree, it's like carving a cross or star of david into your child's flesh
02:10:42 <tswett> Dang. /// is more than 10 and a half years old now.
02:12:45 <tswett> About circumcision: yup.
02:13:22 <tswett> It's been legal for thousands of years and they haven't changed the law yet.
02:13:53 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you musta been, like, 4 when I came up with ///.
02:15:35 <tswett> Now here's a question.
02:15:58 <tswett> In ///, how can I compress a big long thing that's very regular, but doesn't actually have much in the way of individual substrings that are repeated a lot, like:
02:16:00 <tswett> 99E99F98E98E98F97E97E97F96E96E96F95E95E95F94E94E94F93E93E93F92E92E92F91E91E91F90E90E90F89E89E89F88E88E88F87E87E87F86E86E86F85E85E85F84E84E84F83E83E83F82E82E82F81E81E81F80E80E80F79E79E79F78E78E78F77E77E77F76E76E76F75E75E75F74E74E74F73E73E73F72E72E72F71E71E71F70E70E70F69E69E69F68E68E68F67E67E67F66E66E66F65E65E65F64E64E64F63E63E63F62E62E62F61E61E61F60E60E60F59E59E59F58E58E58F57E57E57F56E56E56F55E55E55F54E54E54F53E53E53F52E52E52F51E51E51F50E50E50F49E49E49F48
02:16:00 <tswett> E48E48F47E47E47F46E46E46F45E45E45F44E44E44F43E43E43F42E42E42F41E41E41F40E40E40F39E39E39F38E38E38F37E37E37F36E36E36F35E35E35F34E34E34F33E33E33F32E32E32F31E31E31F30E30E30F29E29E29F28E28E28F27E27E27F26E26E26F25E25E25F24E24E24F23E23E23F22E22E22F21E21E21F20E20E20F19E19E19F18E18E18F17E17E17F16E16E16F15E15E15F14E14E14F13E13E13F12E12E12F11E11E11F10E10E10F
02:17:00 <tswett> Well, how could I create a concise /// program outputting that?
02:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: No, the problem is I don't see the pattern yet
02:17:50 <tswett> Essentially, the string consists of "nEnEnF" repeated for each number from about 99 down to about 10.
02:17:51 <hppavilion[1]> Start with a concise program outputting that in a traditional language, for a start
02:19:01 <tswett> Apparently. So 98 is the first one where it has the entire nEnEnF.
02:19:19 <hppavilion[1]> Ihttp://esolangs.org/wiki//// may be my favorite URL
02:19:34 <tswett> I know, it's kind of a wonderful URL.
02:19:36 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well, you're definitely going to need the string #E#E#F
02:21:32 <tswett> Lemme pose a possibly easier question.
02:21:48 <hppavilion[1]> OK, so the pattern has to be a literal, except \ can escape \ or /?
02:21:52 <tswett> Well, for my own benefit, I mean.
02:22:02 <tswett> And, of course, \ and / both must be escaped.
02:23:08 <tswett> So, for my own benefit, here's a new question. Come up with a reasonably concise /// program outputting this:
02:23:16 <tswett> 00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_010_11_12_13_14_15_16_17_18_19_20_21_22_23_24_25_26_27_28_29_30_31_32_33_34_35_36_37_38_39_40_41_42_43_44_45_46_47_48_49_50_51_52_53_54_55_56_57_58_59_60_61_62_63_64_65_66_67_68_69_70_71_72_73_74_75_76_77_78_79_80_81_82_83_84_85_86_87_88_89_90_91_92_93_94_95_96_97_98_99_
02:23:40 <tswett> Um... there's a hilarious error in the middle of that.
02:23:55 <tswett> See where it says 07_010_11? That should say 07_08_09_10_11.
02:24:52 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, I'm not sure if there's a way to do it concisely
02:25:04 <tswett> Now, here's a trick I learned from the wiki page.
02:25:09 <tswett> Step 1 is to convert that to this...
02:25:25 <tswett> 00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09/_0/_1/_00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09/_1/_2/_00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09
02:25:34 <hppavilion[1]> I mean... if you can make a replacement self-replicate somehow, it'd probably work
02:25:47 <tswett> Then you can come up with a shortcut for 00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09.
02:26:21 <tswett> And then you'll just be left with something looking a lot like...
02:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> So you need to have a normal decrement substitution (like the one in Thue in reverse and decimal rather than binary)
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02:27:06 <tswett> x/_0/_1/x/_1/_2/x/_2/_3/x/_3/_4/x/_4/_5/x/_5/_6/x/_6/_7/x/_7/_8/x/_8/_9/
02:27:06 <hppavilion[1]> Which will definitely have to be at least 10 distinct substitutions
02:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> Then a method by which the count can be inserted into all occurrences of # in #E#E#F
02:29:33 <hppavilion[1]> Then print it and start over with a decremented count
02:29:57 <FreeFull> Does it have to be terminated by a final _?
02:31:15 <FreeFull> print('_'.join(str(x).zfill(2)for x in range(100))) Is the shortest I can come up with in Python
02:31:26 <FreeFull> I bet there is a shorter version though
02:31:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: note you can escape characters other than / and \ as well. that often makes it easier _not_ to substitute things too early.
02:32:20 <FreeFull> Python 2 lets you omit one set of () so it's 2 characters shorter
02:34:02 <FreeFull> What's the best language for this?
02:37:25 <tswett> for i in {00..99}_; do echo -n $i; done
02:37:57 <tswett> echo {00..99} | sed 's/ /_/g'
02:38:19 <tswett> Of course, if you're okay with spaces instead of underscores, it's just...
02:42:05 <FreeFull> echo {00..99}_|tr -d ' ' is the shortest I can come up with without spaces
02:43:47 <myname> is seq 00 99 considered correct?
02:44:08 <myname> nevermind, it doesn't pad
02:44:19 <myname> adding a format will be way too long
02:48:10 <FreeFull> I'm having trouble figuring out the perl version
02:49:32 <lifthrasiir> FreeFull: str(x).zfill(2) == '%02d'%x for given range
02:50:14 <FireFly> [ ,'_',.~(_2{.!.'0'":)"0 i.100
02:50:14 <j-bot> FireFly: 00_01_02_03_04_05_06_07_08_09_10_11_12_13_14_15_16_17_18_19_20_21_22_23_24_25_26_27_28_29_30_31_32_33_34_35_36_37_38_39_40_41_42_43_44_45_46_47_48_49_50_51_52_53_54_55_56_57_58_59_60_61_62_63_64_65_66_67_68_69_70_71_72_73_74_75_76_77_78_79_80_81_82_83_84_85_86_87_88_89_90_91_92_93_94_95_96_97_98_99_
02:50:31 <FireFly> Feels rather mediocre, honestly
02:50:49 <myname> and has a trailing underscore
02:50:52 <lifthrasiir> FreeFull: and ('_%02d'*100%tuple(range(100)))[1:] is shorter
02:50:57 <FireFly> I thought that was intended
02:51:08 <FreeFull> lifthrasiir: I forgot about the formatting operator
02:51:09 <FireFly> tswett's original line had one too
02:51:21 <FreeFull> lifthrasiir: How about a Perl version?
02:51:46 <FreeFull> print '00'..'99'; is missing the _ =P
03:02:51 <FreeFull> Can someone come up with a shorter perl version?
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03:22:32 <tswett> I'm creating a database query tool. I'm thinking of naming it Catabase.
03:22:42 <tswett> What do you think of this name?
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03:45:30 <ais523> tswett: is the first a short or long?
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05:02:11 <zzo38> \oren\: That kind of open protocol and game logic by server is also how I would design some multiplayer online game too such as a card game; in this case hard realtime is not as important. Time limits may be defined but you do not need so much precision
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05:38:45 <hppavilion[1]> With words for things other than the simple stuff that people cared about in... huh, we don't know how old English Units (the parent of both Imperial and Customary units) are
05:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> They were around during roman colonization in the 0s
05:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> ...wow, the reason we still use Customary here is "Advocates of the customary system saw the French Revolutionary, or metric, system as atheistic."
05:41:03 <hppavilion[1]> On my keyboard, I HAVE TO PRESS shift to turn off capslock suddenly
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05:53:38 <shachaf> Seconds are a bizarre unit.
05:57:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: How are seconds a bazaar unit? And how exactly do you "sell" a second in Mesopotamia?
06:01:15 <hppavilion[1]> When people petitioned the white house for a Metric implementation
06:01:39 <hppavilion[1]> The director of the NIST said that, since customary units were defined in the metric system, the nation is "bilingual" in terms of measurement systems.
06:02:09 <pikhq> How many planck lengths tall are you?
06:02:58 <pikhq> I'm about 1.143*10^35 planck lengths tall, personally.
06:03:09 <shachaf> pikhq: The natural unit of length is the smoot.
06:03:43 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: If we do that, we'll at the very least need to define units completely unrelated to planck in name that are always the same multiple of the natural version of what they measure
06:04:01 <pikhq> shachaf: I cannot argue that.
06:04:12 * pikhq has even walked that bridge before
06:04:26 <shachaf> But did you ever walk the planck?
06:06:01 <hppavilion[1]> So, for example, a brick (or whatever) is roughly 0.21765099999999998 kilograms
06:06:11 <shachaf> Then the argument is smoot.
06:07:51 <hppavilion[1]> (If I were to propose a system for the US to use, there would be a unit called the toom that is about a smoot and hope nobody noticed)
06:08:16 <alercah> our inability to objetively define mass is irritating
06:08:30 <alercah> (also symptomatic of our general inability to comprehend gravity)
06:08:58 <shachaf> I should learn about physics.
06:09:05 <alercah> shachaf: if you do let me know
06:09:31 <hppavilion[1]> If we Americans are going to keep our isolationism, we need to stop using those obviously-metric "kilobytes" and "megabytes" and "gigabytes"
06:09:36 <shachaf> The trouble is that physicists have a bizarre perspective on everything.
06:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> What's the most Customary-esque measurement of information?
06:09:59 <shachaf> we are all americans on this blessed day
06:10:09 <shachaf> Information can be measured in semitones.
06:10:10 <alercah> shachaf: yeah, like on what is reasonable mathematics
06:10:52 <shachaf> https://i.imgur.com/Bxmjwj0.png
06:10:54 <hppavilion[1]> The smallest unit would be 6 bits (called a "letter")
06:10:59 <shachaf> I probably shouldn't've done that.
06:11:04 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: The BTU per Rankine.
06:11:32 <shachaf> ASCII (which is the American Standard) is a 7-bit code
06:12:04 <pikhq> At least, that unit has the same dimension as thermodynamic entropy.
06:13:57 <shachaf> Isn't entropy the negative of information? Or something like that?
06:14:59 <pikhq> shachaf: Thermodynamic entropy = (-1) * information theoretic entropy
06:15:03 <hppavilion[1]> A line is 50 letters, a page is 36 lines (though there's conflict; most government entities are supposed to use a 72 line page (as they assumed both sides), but common usage is 36)
06:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, I grabbed the nearest book and counted the lines on the page I had open)
06:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: When explaining that there's a lot of data somewhere, what do you use for comparison?
06:20:26 <hppavilion[1]> Searched "KJV bible length in characters". Received "9"
06:24:53 <hppavilion[1]> The most recent release of Ubuntu (64-bit desktop) is, if my torrent client is correct, 146503 page
06:25:20 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
06:25:24 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]!
06:25:49 <adu> hppavilion[1]: how have you been?
06:26:42 <adu> I had a 30 minute tele-conference with my company's competitor today :D
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07:05:10 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll try and get Congress to pass a law improving the Customary system; if we can't switch to metric, we can at least make it easier
07:06:23 <hppavilion[1]> Define the metric prefixes (plus hella- and hello-) as acceptable modifiers of unit (so kilofoot and millipound are words that government organizations can use)
07:06:40 <hppavilion[1]> And add some new units that Metric already has single units for but Customary doesn't
07:10:38 <hppavilion[1]> (there's no simple word for a Customary Newton or Pascal or any such thing)
07:11:06 <hppavilion[1]> And maybe even some shorthands for concepts (like speed and acceleration)
07:11:42 <hppavilion[1]> But the REAL reason I do this is for an evil purpose- it mixes in my system of naming, and establishes it as compulsory for marketing
07:17:17 <zzo38> I think in United States, legal documents are already allowed to use metric.
07:17:23 <zzo38> Such a law has already been passed.
07:18:47 <zzo38> (You don't have to use metric)
07:18:52 <pikhq> The major issue is, in certain contexts you're not allowed to *exclusively* use metric.
07:19:31 <pikhq> For instance, packaging for food is generally not allowed to use metric exclusively.
07:19:44 <zzo38> O, so that is how it is.
07:19:46 <pikhq> (but is required to use metric in addition to US customary units)
07:20:24 <zzo38> I do not really see much of a problem with that though.
07:20:33 <pikhq> It's not a huge one, except some manufacturers would like to stop caring.
07:20:57 <pikhq> Fortunately, there's no requirement that your goods be a round number of units in one system or another.
07:21:33 <pikhq> So e.g. it's perfectly valid to sell 4L of milk, just so long as it's 4 L (135 fl oz)
07:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( One hertz-second (Hz⋅s) is a useless unit... I wonder if we make stuff more confusing with it )
07:29:05 <hppavilion[1]> The best strategy to secure our borders and keep out ISIS trying to get in through Mexico is, in my opinion, to (1) help fix Mexico so it's not a shitty place to live that makes the US much more appealing (2) form a "North American Union" of sorts (NAU- like the EU) and (3) Impose strict regulations on travel into NAU member states, but travel between NAU member states is allowed and easy (but you don't necessarily get government
07:30:20 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: This is because you're thinking about effective policy, not racism.
07:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Well, if we get enough mixed-race couples then Mexicans and Whites will slowly become indistinguishable
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08:45:55 <hppavilion[1]> Is it possible to have a measurement along the lines of m^1/2?
08:50:25 <Taneb> Also the EU currently has 28 members
08:50:46 <izabera> is that before or after brexit?
08:51:14 <Taneb> We're seeing how long we can procrastinate brexit before everyone forgets about it
08:56:27 <fizzie> I was real Brexit-sad at Heathrow again when using the "UK and EU passports" lane.
08:57:05 <fizzie> Also the automatic ePassport gates refused to like my passport -- Brexit consequences manifesting in advance?
08:57:18 <fizzie> (The ones in Finland liked it just fine.)
08:59:04 <Taneb> fizzie, I had that in Heathrow
08:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> So what is the square root of a unit? What's sqrt(kg) or sqrt(s) or sqrt(m)?
09:01:50 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Apparently fracture toughness values are typically in units of MPa sqrt(m), as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fracture_toughness#Example_values
09:03:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm really just looking for a physical interpretation, if such a thing can possibly exist
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10:50:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49646&oldid=49164 * Beta-Decay * (+336)
11:02:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49647&oldid=49646 * Beta-Decay * (+0)
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13:37:49 <b_jonas> fungot: a Nyuszi gondoskodott a vitaminról
13:37:50 <fungot> b_jonas: too late to change design philosophy. it only teaches the new language
13:56:07 <b_jonas> fungot: a lepke őt és mindhármukat én.
13:56:07 <fungot> b_jonas: and now he's going to switzerland to a winter solstice ritual in a " symbol", and you can rotate the picture in all 4 compass directions
14:04:57 <FreeFull> Both racism and discrimination against the poor are stupid
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15:04:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:83.230.38.58]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
15:06:04 <oerjan> another legitimate anonymous edit caught in the filter :(
15:09:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:Mtve]]": Spam: Apparently no one noticed back in 2011 when this spam page was (re)created :P
15:11:40 <oerjan> @tell ais523 the "polish" spammers stupidly respammed a page they'd managed to split by us - in 2011 :P
15:11:57 <oerjan> @tell ais523 *slip, sheesh
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15:13:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49648&oldid=45598 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Hello World! */ Anonymous legitimate edit caught by filter 9
15:14:52 <oerjan> @tell ais523 Somehow, filter 9 seems to cause more work :(
15:19:23 <oerjan> there was also an earlier blocked edit which i don't know if is correct https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/6629
15:21:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:5.248.239.32]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
15:23:24 <\oren\> 10 kiloHertz-seconds is just 10000
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15:45:50 <lifthrasiir> we need a unit for non-dimensional constants
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15:48:18 <oerjan> `relcome icomefromSPACE73
15:48:19 <HackEgo> icomefromSPACE73: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:49:26 <icomefromSPACE73> and how do i get my fusion drives working so i can get off this planet?
15:50:47 <icomefromSPACE73> that's right.. i come from a planet called Superion... it's awesome, i want to get back
15:52:02 <oerjan> i think the book "The little Prince" has some advice at the end hth
15:52:59 <oerjan> nope, it's too old to know about those.
15:53:32 <oerjan> anyway, you could ask those ITER guys.
15:53:44 <HackEgo> Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
15:53:58 <oerjan> icomefromSPACE73: earth's main fusion project hth
15:55:08 <oerjan> nope. all our attempts to use fusion keep pushing back to 30 years in the future, somehow.
15:55:33 <oerjan> we're pretty good with fission, though.
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16:00:53 <oerjan> `le/rn space/Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it.
16:02:38 <myname> is earth only the word for this planet in english?
16:02:52 <oerjan> i considered reverting that to make it start with "space", but it didn't feel right.
16:03:21 <oerjan> myname: i should think so.
16:03:58 <oerjan> except perhaps english-based creoles
16:04:06 <\oren\> myname: some science fiction refers to it as "Terra", but general english calls it "the earth" or "earth"
16:05:02 <myname> in german there is "erde" which can be either the name of this planet or that brown stuff you plant plants in
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16:05:32 <oerjan> in norwegian "Jorda" (or "jord" for the brown stuff)
16:06:38 <oerjan> (those are all cognates)
16:06:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: yeah, and some science fiction calls the sun "Sol" and the humans "terrans", see http://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/116820/4918
16:07:59 <b_jonas> oh man, I'm connected to eight different irc networks. again.
16:08:19 <b_jonas> on any but freenode, I only want to access very few channels
16:08:20 <oerjan> "In its earliest appearances, eorðe was already being used to translate the many senses of Latin terra and Greek γῆ (gē): the ground,[n 9] its soil,[n 10] dry land,[n 11] the human world,[n 12] the surface of the world (including the sea),[n 13] and the globe itself.[n 14]"
16:10:01 <\oren\> The earliest citation for "Terra" as a name for the planet Earth is from an 1871 lecture "Science & Revelation" by Robert Payne Smith:
16:11:18 <\oren\> so, relatively new term
16:12:06 <\oren\> however, Terra fits in better with the Latin names we use for the other planets
16:12:22 <oerjan> of course the romans didn't consider it a planet.
16:13:32 <\oren\> true,but still, you have these latinate names for the other planets, and then the odd one out is earth with its th sound
16:14:27 <b_jonas> no, the odd one out is Moon
16:16:32 <\oren\> as in the Solar System
16:17:36 <oerjan> norwegian has it easy there, our word for sun is sol.
16:19:11 <\oren\> A similar problem occurs in japanese where the other planets end in 星 (star) while earth is 地球 (dirt ball)
16:19:47 <oerjan> huh, the difference between "sun" and "sol" stem from PIE grammar - the word had different forms in different cases.
16:20:21 <oerjan> \oren\: hey, isn't that just japanese humility :P
16:21:17 <\oren\> the also had to cram in neptune and uranus after the other planets used the five lements
16:21:50 <\oren\> 天王星 sky king star 海王星 sea king star
16:22:07 <oerjan> all the germanic, latin and greek words for "sun" seem to be cognate.
16:22:34 <oerjan> (also russian, i recently learned)
16:23:15 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh right, those other five elements, the ones in the Chinese system. I don't know how that system works.
16:24:56 <oerjan> while the moon's name seems to be different in all three
16:25:21 <\oren\> mercury is water, venus is metal, mars is fire, jupiter is wood, and saturn is earth
16:26:18 <oerjan> saturn is earth? those crazy chinese
16:28:49 <\oren\> and the sun is pretty crazy too: 太陽 (fat yang)
16:29:20 <b_jonas> I only know the classical alchemical correspondence: Sunday/Dimanche/Sun/gold, Monday/Lundi/Moon/silver, Tuesday/Mardi/Mars/iron, Wednesday/Mercredi/Mercury/mercury, Thursday/Jeudi/Jupiter/tin, Friday/Vendredi/Venus/copper, Saturday/Saturn/lead. Makes much more sense.
16:29:59 <\oren\> b_jonas: thes sort of used those for the days of the week in Japanese
16:30:28 <b_jonas> There's also an alchemical correspondence to basically any set of seven things you can think of, plus also any set of five or six or eight or nine or ten or eleven or twelve things just shoehorned on somehow.
16:30:58 <\oren\> like thursday is wood-week-day
16:31:01 <b_jonas> In the modern day, few do alchemy, so it's astrology that has to listen to these corespondences.
16:31:33 <oerjan> b_jonas: which disney dwarf corresponds to which planet?
16:31:38 <b_jonas> I say we should just cut out the roman gods and name the names of weeks from the classical metals in first places.
16:31:53 <\oren\> and then sunday is day-week-day and monday is moon-week-day
16:31:55 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.xkcd.com/1417/
16:32:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: that's what i was referring to
16:32:50 <HackEgo> 1243) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
16:35:14 <b_jonas> There's also the seven wonders and the hét honfoglaló vezér, of whom there are different contradictory lists of which seven, so very likely everyone is just fudging the lists to make sure it comes out to seven after the fact when they find out more.
16:36:43 <oerjan> Alexander, Caesar, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin
16:37:05 <oerjan> and Ramses whatever-his-number-was
16:38:22 <b_jonas> The hét vezér in particular are either ((Álmos|Árpád), Előd, Ond, Kond, Tas, Huba, (Töhötöm|Tétény)) based on the list by Anonymus, or a completely different sounding list with some overlaps and family relationships with the previous one.
16:38:28 * oerjan cannot say he's ever noticed lists of seven conquerors, anyway.
16:38:42 <oerjan> ah. they have to be hungarian.
16:39:10 <b_jonas> There are three primary sources giving three different lists, plus extra sources with no list but talking about some of the individual people.
16:39:54 <oerjan> hm maybe Mehmed 2(?) fits better.
16:41:09 <oerjan> far too many conquerors in the world as a whole.
16:53:01 <\oren\> seven empires: British, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, German, and Russian
16:53:21 <\oren\> (at least, those are the ones from Age Of Empire 2)
16:53:25 <\oren\> (at least, those are the ones from Age Of Empire 3)
16:53:58 <\oren\> stupid fingers, stop typing the button bedide the one I want
16:54:27 <\oren\> age of empires also has the ottomans but they suck
16:56:11 <\oren\> theres also the "group of seven" canadian painters
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17:09:47 <Lymia> fizzie, git cloning the zem.fi hill is broken again
17:28:32 <fizzie> Hurbl. I thought I fixed that.
17:29:46 <fizzie> Maybe I just thought about it.
17:31:22 <fizzie> I did fix that thing that was previously wrong (not running git update-server-info in the post-update hook).
17:32:58 <fizzie> I can't even find the URL you're supposed to clone any more.
17:34:23 <fizzie> Apparently https://zem.fi/bfjoust/hill.git/ and cloning it seemed to work now.
17:34:44 <fizzie> Of course I made the mistake of manually running update-server-info, so if it was broken before that, I have no way of knowing.
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17:45:41 <Lymia> !zjoust meowmeowmeow <
17:45:41 <zemhill__> Lymia.meowmeowmeow: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
17:54:03 <fizzie> Mhm. Looks like the same problem of not auto-running that thing, but I have no idea why.
17:55:12 <fizzie> !zjoust how_about_now <><
17:55:12 <zemhill__> fizzie.how_about_now: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
17:55:44 <fizzie> In other news, though, "it doesn't work" is a horrible bug report.
17:55:54 <fizzie> Please clearly state expected and actual behaviour.
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18:05:08 <int-e> that program looks a bit fishy
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18:13:09 <fizzie> int-e: You're just carping.
18:13:35 <Lymia> !zjoust meow :3 <( meow! )
18:13:36 <zemhill__> Lymia.meow: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
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18:14:31 <fizzie> The food chain in action.
18:19:29 <Lymia> <fizzie> In other news, though, "it doesn't work" is a horrible bug report.
18:19:30 <Lymia> <fizzie> Please clearly state expected and actual behaviour.
18:19:33 <Lymia> Expected behavior: It works
18:19:37 <Lymia> Actual behavior: It doesn't work
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18:30:35 <\oren\> Expected behaviour: it behaves as expected.
18:30:51 -!- jaboja has joined.
18:30:58 <\oren\> Actual behaviour: it behaves in an unexpected manner.
18:33:24 <fizzie> In that case, it's working as intended.
18:41:02 <\oren\> do british people who move to France have to refit their cars with a steering wheel on the other side?
18:41:03 <zzo38> Is there a simple way to forge the reply-to message-ID in Heirloom-Mailx?
18:42:00 <Taneb> \oren\, I don't think so
18:44:39 <zzo38> So that I can reply to messages that I have not received.
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19:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> Is kg^-1... the measurement of percentage? So U-235 has a value 0.0072 kg^-1 in pure uranium?
19:10:28 <Lymia> fizzie, How computationally expensive is markov scoring?
19:10:43 <Lymia> Is it unreasonable to try and compute it on ~9000 programs
19:16:55 <zzo38> On the floor inside of the boat they should add a compass with aft/fore/port/starboard so that you can know which way to go inside of the ship. Some of the boats can go in either direction, so in that case, to add lights on the wall inside to tell you which way.
19:22:44 <Taneb> For English as a foreign language, I think that would be preferable
19:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Everybody in this class speaks english as a first language
19:25:23 <shachaf> What, you prefer the American teacher?
19:41:01 <\oren\> English class in Canada is a mixture of prescriptivism to high class dialect, literature studies on Canadian authors, and political propaganda.
19:43:44 <\oren\> oh, and shakespeare, lots of shakespear
19:44:38 <Taneb> Gotta shake that spear
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19:53:21 <hppavilion[1]> He also said that the singular they isn't a thing (on the grounds that languages change... and nobody uses it any more? Not even the solid 80% of English speakers who use it regularly without even thinking about it?)
19:53:51 <hppavilion[1]> "adjective" is pronounced without the c sound (bullshit; that isn't even an archaic pronunciation, it just isn't a real thing)
19:54:58 <hppavilion[1]> And "dream" (the kind that happens while you sleep), "think", "ponder", and "imagine" are all synonyms (even if the connotations may be different, he says they're all exactly the same word)
19:56:00 <hppavilion[1]> And "seventh" in "seventh graders" is an adjective- when I tried to point out that you'd be looked at like you were crazy if you just said "graders", he said that "graders" (as in "people who grade papers") means that isn't true
19:56:07 <hppavilion[1]> Even though that's clearly an entirely different meaning
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20:05:18 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: yep, that's the high school experience all right
20:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> Can somebody get me the link to the comic 2 before http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/you-are-loved
20:05:46 <hppavilion[1]> The one immediately before includes the word "fetish" so my school blocks it because bullshit
20:05:52 <\oren\> don't worry, http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/adam39s-rib
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20:11:47 <HackEgo> 112) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple \ 529) <fizzie> One reasonable approach for the image->color case could be to take the mean (possibly in the RGB space, it doesn't have the hue discontinuity problem) of the most likely Gaussian
20:12:11 <HackEgo> 529) <fizzie> One reasonable approach for the image->color case could be to take the mean (possibly in the RGB space, it doesn't have the hue discontinuity problem) of the most likely Gaussian distribution to have yielded the image pixels, considering each pixel as an independent sample. <fizzie> Wait, that'd just be the mean. Never mind.
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20:14:11 <HackEgo> 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 58) <oklopol> Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? \ 69) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 121) <nooga> i think of languages as tools,
20:15:09 <wob_jonas> hpp: I also dislike teachers that try to use the student's yet ignorance and trust to tell their style preferences as if they were rules or accepted best practices. I wasn't too much scarred from them, because I'm always a self-learner who prefers to learn from books over presentations, but still, I dislike it by principle.
20:15:37 <\oren\> `` quote mean | sed -e 's/\(^[^)]*\)).*/\1/'
20:15:38 <HackEgo> 6 \ 58 \ 69 \ 121 \ 154 \ 184 \ 193 \ 234 \ 250 \ 286 \ 326 \ 331 \ 351 \ 353 \ 366 \ 451 \ 477 \ 491 \ 500 \ 529 \ 536 \ 567 \ 626 \ 639 \ 644 \ 666 \ 703 \ 733 \ 760 \ 781 \ 819 \ 840 \ 860 \ 866 \ 904 \ 963 \ 975 \ 1046 \ 1056 \ 1058 \ 1091 \ 1106 \ 1139 \ 1189 \ 1261 \ 1279
20:15:50 <wob_jonas> I don't mind people forming their own preferred style, or even teaching them as a starting point, but they should always make it clear which parts are generally accepted rules and which are just their preferences.
20:15:57 <\oren\> hey, it worked first try! yay
20:16:27 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Like teachers saying the Oxford comma is always right or always wrong, with no mention that it's rather debated at the moment?
20:16:29 <HackEgo> 121) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
20:16:39 <HackEgo> 154) <Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
20:17:21 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I prefer no commas in those cases
20:17:34 <\oren\> I ate bread eggs and milk for breakfasr
20:18:01 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I was originally taught to not use the oxford comma, but when I learned that it's actually not just an absolute rule I decided that it should be used
20:20:57 <wob_jonas> As for punctuation, Hungarian has very different and strict and simple rules for where to use comma (or other punctuation, as in colon or semicolon or dash or parenthesis). One of the important differences is that Hungarian always has punctuation between any two subclause. (That isn't the only rule, there are commas in other places too.)
20:21:24 <wob_jonas> I'm not *using* those rules for English, but I'm sometimes sort of influenced by them, and I probably use somewhat strange and unusual rules in English.
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20:23:01 <Lymia> <hppavilion[1]> The one immediately before includes the word "fetish" so my school blocks it because bullshit
20:23:14 <Lymia> This is when you pull out all the web filter bypass techneques.
20:24:04 <\oren\> or just use your phone
20:24:08 <wob_jonas> hpp: oh by the way, do they also block all urls matching /ad/ for ad-blocking?
20:24:16 <wob_jonas> because I think I've seen that filter
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20:26:25 <APNG> some esolangs are based on PNG
20:26:42 <APNG> why are there no supporters of the EPNG format? https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/60a025d5901f67b2e549dca4a0ba7d46
20:27:10 <APNG> (technically a PNG extension, not a format)
20:27:51 <APic> Why, oh why, did not i take the blue Pill?
20:28:36 <APNG> please support EPNG ^^
20:29:01 <APNG> do minecraft command blocks count as an esoteric programming language?
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20:30:12 <wob_jonas> APNG: you can program them, but it's kind of hard because they weren't really designed for that.
20:31:01 <wob_jonas> Admittedly, some of the redstone logic stuff was *probably* added with the intent that geeks program it, but not for the complicated projects some people use them.
20:31:11 <wob_jonas> Probably not as esoteric as dwarf fortress I guess.
20:31:51 <APNG> well I basically once programmed a whole (music) tracker using command blocks https://minecraft.curseforge.com/projects/wireless-note-block-song-player
20:32:17 <wob_jonas> Maybe it's sort of like TeX, which Knuth designed to be programmable, but not really to be easy to write general programs in, and many of the hacks he and other people wrote in it abuse the language way more than it was intended.
20:32:51 <APNG> didn't someone make an ATeXMel or something?
20:34:05 <APNG> this https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu/tree/master#README
20:34:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49649&oldid=49177 * Tripl3dogdare * (+15) /* S */
20:34:52 <Taneb> I believe that since 1.8 Minecraft sans command blocks is TC
20:35:16 <APNG> Taneb, 1.8 added slime blocks right?
20:35:51 <Taneb> I reckon you can use slime block flying machines as registers for a Minsky machine
20:36:09 <Taneb> With players carried to keep the chunks loaded
20:36:14 <APNG> I bet you can simulate protein folding with slimeblocks
20:36:35 <APNG> I don't feel like trying tho
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20:54:27 <Taneb> I do wish I understood how to design Minecraft flying machines, though
20:58:17 <\oren\> hmm there should be a multiplayer dwarf fortress
21:01:10 <fizzie> Lymia: Google famously computes it for the Internet (as in, it's more or less like PageRank), so doing 9000 programs shouldn't be impossible. Done the iterative way, it's just a matter of repeatedly multiplying a vector by a 9000x9000 matrix (which I assume should be a quadratic operation), stopping when you're converged enough.
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21:11:58 <zzo38> I do TeX programming too
21:14:19 <wob_jonas> zzo: do you count it as an esolang when you do that?
21:19:23 <Lymia> As long as it's not O(n^3) or something
21:19:29 <Lymia> O(n^2) matchups between programs is nasty enough
21:22:21 <wob_jonas> I think some of the esoteric features I find strange in TeX and Metafont might not have been unusual back at that time, they only seem unusual now:
21:22:55 <wob_jonas> As in, those languages have rules such that they really can't be compiled, only interpreted as token strings at runtime, because how the token things are parsed can change at runtime. That doesn't cause a problem in normal programs where you don't abuse that, but it also always makes it possible to write obfuscations.
21:23:32 <wob_jonas> Now clearly that's not how people make programming languages now, because people want to be able to analyze and optimize and compile programs. But back then, it was normal, at least APL was like that, probably more.
21:24:20 <\oren\> Perl is also one of those
21:24:50 <wob_jonas> \oren\: in perl, more or less every subroutine is compiled to a clean op-tree once.
21:25:27 <wob_jonas> in APL or Metafont or TeX, everything is left as a token string, and which part of the token string are functions that act on which other parts is decided dynamically and may change at runtime depending on how variables are assigned
21:26:52 <wob_jonas> But most languages aren't like that, they can be compiled to at least optrees, even the old languages like algol, fortran, smalltalk, basic, and some variants of lisp (but not emacs lisp).
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21:28:37 <wob_jonas> I mean, in perl, you can compile a function at runtime, but once you compile it, the interpreter knows from the optree which words are functions and which are barewords and what are variables and what the precedence and calls are etc. Compiling each function can happen somewhat late, because you routinely run perl code in BEGIN blocks before other
21:29:14 <wob_jonas> But even in perl, you don't usually get functions recompiled again and again. There are only a few mechanisms for that, like eval, or abusing do-file, or s///e, or starting a new perl interpreter, etc.
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21:29:29 <wob_jonas> It's not like you have to keep everything a token string.
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22:02:52 <zzo38> You can tamper with the category codes in TeX to parse some other kinds of files, is also one thing that can be done.
22:04:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, some people do strange things in TeX. Sometimes I don't understand why they try to stick to pure TeX instead of delegating some task to non-TeX programs.
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22:04:44 <wob_jonas> I want to use the best tool for each task, and that often means mixing multiple languages. That's no problem. Good languages are meant to interoprate with other languages in various ways.
22:04:44 <zzo38> There is also stuff that can be done with \uppercase and \lowercase and one thing I have done with this is the ability to output binary specials rather than only ASCII text in specials.
22:05:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, those are magical, sometimes people use them (and \roman I think) for things where they don't even need to translate characters, they just use it for the strange side effects on the TeX mouth that you can't get otherwise or something.
22:05:51 <wob_jonas> I don't really understand how it works.
22:05:55 <wob_jonas> (I understand metafont even less.)
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22:06:36 <zzo38> One advantage to write purely in TeX is that you do not need another program; TeX is designed to be the same on all computers, so the program will work everywhere (the possible exception is an out of memory error, but that's all).
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22:07:45 <zzo38> You can also use \romannumeral-` to get rid of a } that follows
22:07:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, but I can also write other programs that are more or less portable, and also, I can distribute the intermediate results (like an index of a book) that you can then TeX on your own computer.
22:09:01 <zzo38> You can do that yes. Although, I have also made the program entirely in TeX to make the index, too.
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22:09:19 <zzo38> (I have made many considerations to reduce the amount of memory each index entry takes up.)
22:11:06 <zzo38> One thing I often use is things like this: \def\ecall#1{\begingroup\edef\next{\endgroup#1}\next}
22:12:34 <zzo38> The stuff built-in to Plain TeX that defines \next for a temporary purpose can interfere with other uses of \next; my way does not cause this interference.
22:12:57 <\oren\> I prefer writing things in C that generate HTML
22:13:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: um, can't you just use some other token than \next instead then?
22:13:18 <zzo38> That can work if you are trying to make HTML
22:13:43 <zzo38> wob_jonas: But if they are multiple uses of the same command, that won't work; they will interfere with itself.
22:15:44 <wob_jonas> I sort of feel that other software is finally catching up to TeX in the typography and math formula typography aspect, so maybe in another decade we'll no longer need to use TeX for anything, and won't need to deal with the language part that comes with it.
22:16:42 <zzo38> I still prefer TeX over much of the new stuff anyways.
22:16:45 <wob_jonas> Sort of like how I finally no longer need to depend on libraries written in fortran to do numerical computation stuff, because the newer software has caught up with the huge advantage that the numeric libraries written in fortran had
22:17:03 <wob_jonas> (and the fortran libraries got sort of obsolate because they weren't written with modern cpu and caching in mind).
22:17:24 <wob_jonas> zzo38: right now, sure. I'm saying I think it will happen in like a decade. The software haven't quite caught up with TeX yet.
22:17:56 <wob_jonas> (As in, all the technology is replicated, but they're not put together to good usable tools for all tasks yet.)
22:19:41 <zzo38> If you do not like TeX another alternative is troff, which has its own output format but it can convert to DVI (as well as other formats, such as man page view).
22:20:25 <Lymia> Isn't he "modern" answer to TeX .pdf and WYSIWYG editors anyway
22:20:48 <zzo38> I don't like PDF and WYSIWYG and I think TeX does it better than those anyways.
22:21:07 <zzo38> One feature of TeX I really like is custom output routines; I don't know what others will do such thing.
22:21:19 <wob_jonas> Lymia: no, I don't think so. I like pdf, but it's not the wysiwig editors that I'm missing, I'm not that sort of gui guy really.
22:21:37 <Lymia> My technical writing classmates can't make something look pretty in a WYSIWYG editor.
22:21:46 <Lymia> I doubt they can get TeX to output anything at all.
22:22:14 <wob_jonas> Lymia: oh sure, some people make crap with any tool, and they don't care what anything look like. that's not really my problem.
22:23:50 <wob_jonas> On the other hand, I'd like to have access to all the modern infrastructure with fonts and unicode and alternate glyphs and stuff, and it's sort of incompatible with TeX, as in, neither can you use all features of Metafont fonts in modern stuff, nor can you use all features of new text rendering infrastructure in TeX.
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22:24:10 <Lymia> I'd probably just use some sort of gui editor if I needed to typeset something.
22:24:13 <wob_jonas> But I think eventually (in a decade) you just won't need TeX, because the modern stuff will take all the good features.
22:24:20 <Lymia> Better iteration time for messing with layout and such.
22:24:24 <wob_jonas> Lymia: sure, and gui editors do exist, and they will get better.
22:24:36 <Lymia> Unless I need to autogenerate something from code, I guess.
22:24:45 <Lymia> That's a use case for TeX-type stuff still.
22:24:54 <wob_jonas> You need both gui editors and programmability, and they need to interoperate, but we have a lot of that already (for non-TeX stuff)
22:26:07 <wob_jonas> Oh, and the gui editors (including the MS office, mind you) take the appearance part of LaTeX syntax, like, you enter formula as \frac{\varphi}{2}, simply because many mathematicians do that. They don't really run any sort of TeX, just steal the names and the outward appearance of the syntax,
22:26:47 <wob_jonas> just like how javascript and lots of other languages steal some bits of C syntax, like the spelling of operators and the control statements.
22:27:44 <wob_jonas> Lymia: IMO mathml is not a source format. It is a representation format, which you should sort of compare to DVI or PDF, only the viewer can change a lot of things with it (varying page size and fonts and font size etc) which makes sense because readers now use browsers instead of paper journals.
22:28:17 <wob_jonas> But mathml is a good thing, and I wish more browsers would support it well.
22:28:26 <zzo38> You can look at this file http://zzo38computer.org/barps/main.tex to see some of the stuff that is done, to resolve cross-references and create a table of contents and index without needing to run it twice or use an external program for these things. One thing it does not currently do is to output SQL although I intend to later make it to also output SQL to another file.
22:28:30 <wob_jonas> At least as far as I've seen it. I don't know too much about it.
22:28:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you actually have to run it only once?
22:28:58 <wob_jonas> not, like run it a constant number of times?
22:29:16 <wob_jonas> like, even if I want the table of contents on the front? do I have to rearrange the pages of the dvi later?
22:29:36 <wob_jonas> (I've sliced and catenated dvi pages once. No problem. Just asking how this works.)
22:29:56 <wob_jonas> (Or maybe it was PDF pages? I dunno.)
22:31:21 <zzo38> Yes, you only have to run it once to create the output.
22:31:35 <zzo38> The table of contents is already on the front.
22:31:52 <zzo38> Yes you will get the table of contents on the front even if you only run it once.
22:32:09 <wob_jonas> And you'll get the rest of the document too?
22:32:36 <zzo38> Yes, as well as an auto-generated auto-sorted index, with all cross-references (both backward and forward) resolved.
22:33:19 <wob_jonas> Isn't that even theoretically impossible?
22:34:41 <wob_jonas> I mean, a page number in a cross-reference can change form 99 to 100 which is wider and that could affect page breaks and page numbers later so you have to find a fixed point for cross-references (which might not even exist in really pathological cases).
22:37:32 <zzo38> Yes, but it is unlikely. There are ways to deal with that if needed though.
22:38:17 <Lymia> !ztest meow (>)*9((+)*15[-]>)*4([>{((+)*15[-]>)*-1}])%3
22:38:18 <zemhill__> Lymia.meow: points -25.31, score 5.03, rank 47/47 (--)
22:38:21 <wob_jonas> Sure, you can always just tweak the document a little manually if there's no fixed point, and in practice you usually hit a fixed point the third iteration.
22:38:27 <Lymia> !ztest meow ++(>)*9((+)*15[-]>)*4([>{((+)*15[-]>)*-1}])%3
22:38:28 <zemhill__> Lymia.meow: points -26.00, score 6.05, rank 47/47 (--)
22:38:43 <Lymia> !ztest meow ++(>)*9((+)*15[-]>)*-1
22:38:44 <zemhill__> Lymia.meow: points -23.24, score 11.99, rank 26/47 (+21)
22:38:55 <Lymia> kiseki definitely effs up the ladder. :D
22:39:51 <wob_jonas> And if you want a nice-looking document, then there are tons of other things that you may have to tweak manually to improve the looks and that you can't predict until after you render and look.
22:41:53 <wob_jonas> But anyway, yes, doing that in one run of TeX is impressive, even if it's sort of an esoteric goal.
22:45:21 <\oren\> Hmm, some of my CGI is still in sh, I should convert it to C
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22:48:47 <zzo38> Sometimes an external file is used to store cross references, but this won't work if the page is not being shipped out and also may cause problems with interpreting the output as input differently (although sometimes, you would want that), so what I did is to add an insertion class, and put into the insertion, marks and penalties interleaved, and then use \vsplit to extract the marks.
22:48:49 <\oren\> I'm not entirely certain that doing CGI in C is safer, or even faster, but it does put the C back into it.
22:49:24 <zzo38> (This can also be used to substitute for multiple classes of marks if you need that feature.)
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23:07:46 <\oren\> I've now reimplemented the allfiles.htm in C
23:08:50 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/listall.c.htm
23:10:50 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/listall.sh.htm is the original in sh
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23:17:12 <\oren\> `le/rn cgi/CGI stands for uh... C, goblin, interface?
23:20:02 <\oren\> `learn wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
23:20:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'wob_jona': wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
23:20:25 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
23:21:19 <Zarutian> Common Gateway Interface if you must know
23:22:06 <\oren\> bah what a meaningless acronym
23:23:22 <\oren\> It should be "RPFWR" running programs for web responses
23:26:45 <pikhq> It's a shame that CGI is designed such that it's often not practical to e.g. pass the file descriptor for the connection to the CGI program.
23:27:30 <Lymia> <zemhill__> web.minpoijjikop: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-44)
23:27:31 <pikhq> Mind, that's the least of CGI's issues.
23:27:46 <Lymia> There was a program named minpoijjikop a long time ago. It turned out to be... I think margins3 with random characters removed.
23:27:51 <Lymia> I guess someone decided to kill it.
23:28:14 <pikhq> (well, okay. Issues if you're concerned about maximally simple implementation. It's really not an issue if you don't mind a mild complexity bump and don't mind the inefficiency of CGI, anyways.)
23:28:48 <Taneb> Contente generaté interactifemente, it's French
23:29:09 <Taneb> (disclaimer: I do not know French, at all)
23:30:24 <shachaf> How should web programs work?
23:33:12 <pikhq> The web is scow. Complex apps on the web should be done via a simple bytecode spec with sandboxed implementation. ("simple" as in "you can easily *prove* your sandbox's security guarantees")
23:33:31 <Lymia> <shachaf> How should web programs work?
23:33:37 <Lymia> In a way that doesn't involve C.
23:34:03 <Lymia> pikhq, too late for that.
23:34:47 <Lymia> At least for web development purposes, there's stuff like Scala.js or Coffeescript or whatever.
23:34:56 <Lymia> So you don't have to use Javascript.
23:38:37 <zemhill__> Lymia: Program name () is restricted to characters in [a-zA-Z0-9_-], sorry.
23:40:04 <zemhill__> Lymia: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
23:41:41 <fizzie> That's a little confusing.
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23:43:37 <fizzie> It does a message.split(' ', 3) to split it into (command, name, code) triplet.
23:45:00 <fizzie> Then verifies that the name doesn't contain anything outside that set and is at most 48 characters long (wonder where that number came from).
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23:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> You get to sleep with lots of people, but they can only ever sleep with you
23:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> (also, you're always the giver, they're always the receiver)
23:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( "The Giver" (the Lois Lowry book) just got a lot sleazier )
23:52:33 <Lymia> Wait, you mean that wasn't thinly veiled yaoi?
23:53:41 <hppavilion[1]> Lymia: I would say "yes", but now that you mention it I'm not sure
23:54:36 <hppavilion[1]> (If you were to edit the giver to be much more vague about how memories are passed, it would definitely be thinly veiled yaoi, with an appetizer of Paedophilia and a side of May-December)
23:55:37 <fizzie> Re the ladder, yeah, I'm not sure what to do about the Kiseki Problem. I like that a proof-of-concept thing like that exists and is somehow acknowledged to, but on the other hand it does quite a job on the scores. I could just manually remove it, but that's not particularly elegant either. And I don't think I'm up for doing any sort of particularly elaborate restructuring, like multiple hills ...
23:57:36 <Lymia> So it actually works on unknown programs somewhat too. :V
23:57:58 <Lymia> What do you think I want the zemhill repo for
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00:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> Idea: Read every book in http://www.ala.org/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/classics
00:08:00 <shachaf> Some of those books are good.
00:08:23 <hppavilion[1]> The fact that Fahrenheit 451 is on http://www.ala.org/bbooks/top-100-bannedchallenged-books-2000-2009 (or really on any banned/challenged book list at all) is just an embarrassment to the human race
00:09:03 <hppavilion[1]> Personally, I think 50 Shades of Grey should be part of the curriculum in English classes
00:09:15 <pikhq> As an example of how not to write?
00:10:27 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: 50 shades of grey is the most terribly-written book known to man
00:10:35 <hppavilion[1]> It's literally bad twilight fanfiction with the names changed
00:10:36 <pikhq> shachaf: Yes, it's modified Twilight fan fiction, and the writing quality is... about what you'd expect of that.
00:10:49 <pikhq> I wouldn't say it's the most terribly-written book known to man, because it's not.
00:11:12 <pikhq> You should read more, then.
00:11:17 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Far better books than it aren't even published because they're so terrible
00:12:21 <hppavilion[1]> It has a bunch of picture-links to resources with absolutely no organization
00:12:27 <pikhq> That doesn't really mean much though. Particularly as the reason it got formally published has nothing to do with its assessed quality.
00:12:32 <shachaf> What's a good book I haven't read?
00:12:36 <pikhq> It was initially *self* published.
00:12:50 <pikhq> A book publisher picked it up because it was fairly successful after that.
00:13:14 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The Cthulhu Mythos is pretty good, but it's more a bunch of short stories than one big book
00:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> I'd put a link to the library website here, but that would give people which high school I go to
00:14:10 <pikhq> But quite honestly, it can't possibly be considered worse than Atlanta Nights (by Travis Tea).
00:14:16 <alercah> is it worse than My Immortal?
00:14:45 <fizzie> I checked out the website of my former high school, and it's now an IIS7 "Welcome" page.
00:14:57 <shachaf> I should make a rule that everyone I know can give me one book recommendation, which I'll read with an SLA.
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00:16:27 <HackEgo> The The Question is the fundamental mystery of #esoteric, and boily is its master.
00:16:41 <shachaf> `` rgrep 'body weigh' wisdom quotes
00:16:42 <HackEgo> quotes:<boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
00:16:51 <hppavilion[1]> Damn, I can't place a hold because I don't know how to log in
00:17:00 <fizzie> It seems that they nowadays have an actual second-level .fi domain, instead of being a fourth-level domain.
00:18:25 <fizzie> There's a section for the library, but I guess not a database thingie, just a manually updated list of new acquisitions and periodicals.
00:20:28 <hppavilion[1]> I just checked the wikipedia pages for John and Hank green
00:21:56 <hppavilion[1]> Their father isn't named William (or, for that matter, Henry. He's named Mike, in fact)
00:22:14 <oerjan> helloily. what happened after Thor threw lightning at his father Odin?
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00:23:06 <shachaf> Taneb knows the kings of England, so he can probaly tell you.
00:23:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: idling is evil. banish idling now.
00:24:01 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: I think you can be a II if you're reusing a name from a non-immediate ancestor.
00:24:35 <shachaf> I think it's named after Eric Idle.
00:24:36 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] for horrendous possessive formation above
00:24:48 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Ah. non-immediate as in not parent, or non-immediate as in not any tier of n-parent?
00:25:28 <hppavilion[1]> So, if anything, I get swatted for inability to use contractions, not possessives
00:25:31 * oerjan swats himself -----###
00:25:31 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_II_of_England was James II in England and Ireland, and James VII in Scotland.
00:25:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's incorrect in any case
00:26:12 <shachaf> you're like what's-his-name's english teacher
00:26:29 <oerjan> i don't know what's-his-name hth
00:27:01 <oerjan> also, if boily misses this it will be the second time in recent memory. i may have to stop greeting him.
00:27:22 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
00:27:32 <shachaf> oerjan: i can accept it hth
00:27:55 <boily> hppavellon[1]! no, I do not.
00:28:16 <shachaf> boily: Do you know my approximate geographical coördinates and body weigh?
00:28:36 <shachaf> Anyway, it's well-known which city hppavilion[1] is in.
00:28:45 <shachaf> Or at least which airport hppavilion[1] is near.
00:28:52 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, was boily the one who knows where everybody lives? I'm pretty sure e is, but not certain)
00:29:15 <lambdabot> PANC 262253Z VRB06KT 10SM SCT024 BKN200 17/13 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP222 T01720133
00:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> So here's the library link: http://easthighlibrary.wikispaces.com/
00:29:21 <lambdabot> KOAK 262253Z 29007KT 10SM FEW020 22/14 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP137 T02220144
00:29:56 <lambdabot> EGLL 262320Z AUTO 35002KT 9999 NCD 17/10 Q1020 NOSIG
00:30:01 <lambdabot> KORD 262251Z 07008KT 10SM SCT150 BKN200 BKN250 24/16 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP194 T02440156
00:30:03 <fizzie> It was 30+ just the other day.
00:30:06 <lambdabot> KPHX 262251Z 06007KT 10SM SCT090 SCT120 BKN250 36/12 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP076 CB DSNT SE T03610122
00:30:48 <oerjan> everyone knows phoenixes like it hot
00:31:54 <Zarutian> not only steamy but burning hot, eh?
00:32:01 <Lymia> The solution to prevent kiseki from messing up the hill
00:32:06 <Lymia> set up a script to auto-update it.
00:32:28 <Zarutian> so, who is the current brainfuck hill-billy?
00:32:49 <hppavilion[1]> How could ANYBODY try to get A Wrinkle in Time banned!?
00:33:13 <Lymia> Explains 95% of banned lists probably
00:33:24 <Zarutian> Lymia: arent those two synonyms for each other?
00:33:39 <Lymia> ^ Example of bigotry
00:33:51 <oerjan> A Wrinkle in Time was pretty religiously flavored, as i vaguely recall.
00:34:02 <oerjan> someone probably didn't like the theology.
00:35:54 * Zarutian sings under his breath "Barnatrúnni er ég löngu búinn að gleyma..." ("Childish-religion|-faith|-belief have I long forgotten.." is probably a close English translation)
00:36:13 <oerjan> religious sci-fi/fantasy, essentially.
00:37:07 <oerjan> Zarutian is the icelandic i thought i remembered yesterday
00:37:52 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: it is a verse from a lyrics of a song written by Megas.
00:38:11 <FireFly> Has the webcomic SSSS been linked in here?
00:38:22 <oerjan> http://www.guitarparty.com/is/song/thu-bidur-allavegana-eftir-mer/
00:38:25 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: good tune and lyrics composer. Nothing special as a singer.
00:38:50 <fizzie> FireFly: Twice per my logs.
00:39:03 <fizzie> FireFly: http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=195 (by me) and http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=479 (by int-e).
00:39:15 <Zarutian> FireFly: I read it. Svo margt sem stingur rökfræðilega séð með hverning íslendingar myndu bregðast við.
00:39:21 <FireFly> I was just thinking a lot of people in here might enjoy it
00:39:50 <fizzie> I linked the former just because it described Finnish as "absolute gibberish".
00:40:01 <FireFly> I feel bad for having to run that through google translate, Zarutian :(
00:40:16 <FireFly> also lol, it (obviously incorrectly) translated íslendingar as "americans"
00:40:26 <FireFly> or "American people" rather
00:41:07 <Zarutian> FireFly: the funny thing that there are quite a few Icelanders working for Google. Yet the translation provided by Google Translate is still pretty inaccurate
00:41:29 <pikhq> Something tells many of them aren't working in Mountain View.
00:41:36 <FireFly> Presumably the Icelandic office(s) aren't working on GT then
00:41:42 <oerjan> ♫ Har du kvar din barnatro ifrån hemmets lugna bo ♫
00:42:00 <fizzie> There's a bunch of us Finns at Google as well, and Translate's not so hot for Finnish either.
00:42:19 <fizzie> Finnish TTS recently got a new voice, though.
00:42:34 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Dammit, this is going to be one of those really good ones that I'll have to keep reading, isn't it?
00:42:53 <Zarutian> Firefly: GT uses statsticall models learned by seeing two versions of the same text. Problem is that often English text written by Icelanders is nothing like Icelandic text in structure.
00:42:59 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: All I can say is I keep reading it. There's a bunch of backstory though.
00:43:33 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: it's really good, lots of story for sure
00:44:50 <lambdabot> CYVR 262300Z 24004KT 30SM SCT210 OVC250 25/13 A2983 RMK CI3CS5 SLP104 DENSITY ALT 1200FT
00:45:08 <Zarutian> FireFly: and it applies to stylometry too. One research on such had an interactive page where you answer questions regarding word use. I got 'Ebonics' when I actuality I was trying for Neuromancer Sprawlese
00:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> ...wait, is http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=195 accurate to the real world or is in-universe backstory?
00:45:59 <FireFly> it's accurate in real life too
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00:46:22 <fizzie> It neglects to mention that spoken Danish sounds like spoken Swedish with a potato in mouth.
00:46:25 <fizzie> But other than that, sture.
00:46:59 <FireFly> as are the maps you'll see, in that the names and positions of cities and other landmarks are accurate
00:47:44 <fizzie> There's a number of Finnish islands named "<something>ö".
00:47:50 <FireFly> There's a swedish sort of poem/short story written in dialectal swedish that contains the sentence fragment 'å i åa ä e ö'
00:47:59 <fizzie> And that number's a large number.
00:48:01 <FireFly> https://sv.wikisource.org/wiki/Dumt_fôlk
00:48:07 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: in Icelandic it is eyja. But for islands having names they have the -ey suffix
00:48:16 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Yes, Stand Still Stay Silent is fantastic.
00:48:39 <Zarutian> FireFly: reminds me of "á á á á" which is actually an proper sentence
00:48:42 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: "å" is Swedish for river, as well.
00:49:11 <FireFly> "å i åa ä e ö" "och i ån är en ö" "and in the river there's an island"
00:49:12 <shachaf> Maybe pikhq will make it happen.
00:49:33 <Zarutian> fizze: pronounced like au in Shaun? so it is not much diffrent from á?
00:49:36 <FireFly> (dialectal, standard swedish, english)
00:49:52 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Police police police police police police police police police police police police police police
00:50:39 <fizzie> Zarutian: I guess. It's the IPA /o/.
00:50:45 <boily> maudits sites coréens de pas foutus de marcher sur le sens du monde que je me suis repris à je sais pas combien de fois pour booker juste un ***** de vol intérieur tsé veut dire messemble c'est pas compliqué AAAAAAAAAAARGH!
00:50:53 <hppavilion[1]> buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo
00:51:02 <boily> (finally managed to book a domestic flight. fungot dammit was it difficult.)
00:51:02 <fungot> boily: i worked on my languages for ages on the console
00:51:03 <oerjan> Zarutian: i thought icelandic á was a diphthong?
00:51:15 <hppavilion[1]> John while James had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher
00:51:27 <boily> hppavilion[1]: where were we again? something to do about knowing your adress?
00:51:32 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: I have a better one.
00:51:38 <fizzie> The name for å in the Finnish alphabet is "Swedish o" (ruotsalainen o), because the Finnish 'o' grapheme generally means that sound.
00:51:42 <Zarutian> oerjan: you are probably thinking of é
00:51:43 <shachaf> John while James had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher
00:51:54 <shachaf> That whole sentence is ridiculous.
00:52:35 <alercah> John while James had had John while James had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher had had John while James had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher John while James had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher had had a better effect
00:53:16 <Zarutian> oerjan: which means jeg get skirvat nokkud vel skiljanlegan teksta fyrir norraent folvk
00:53:23 <shachaf> John while James had had had had pooch pooch had a better effect on the teacher
00:53:25 <FireFly> shachaf: it's funny, but sort of a bit cheaty in that some of them are quoted
00:53:26 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: that's the joke
00:53:38 <FireFly> the buffalo one is fun too
00:53:41 <shachaf> FireFly: Right. And moreover one of them is implied to be wrong.
00:53:49 <Zarutian> oerjan: (and that was not Icelandic but servral languages cooked together)
00:54:10 <fizzie> "Kokoo kokoon koko kokko! Koko kokkoko? Koko kokko." (and many similar variants) is the typical Finnish example of that sort of thing.
00:54:15 <hppavilion[1]> Jame while John had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had James had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had James had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher
00:54:41 <FireFly> Are you trying to fix the sentence?
00:54:48 <hppavilion[1]> You know what, let's just say "had" as many times as possible and call it grammar
00:55:25 <FireFly> John, while James had had 'had', had had 'had had'. 'had had' had had a better effect on the teacher
00:55:40 <zzo38> I have seen that before in a book
00:55:47 <fizzie> Another one is "kas vain, sanoi kasvain, ja kasvoi vain, sillä vain kasvain voi kasvaa noin vain."
00:55:49 <oerjan> Zarutian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_orthography agrees with me
00:55:51 <zzo38> And, that is the answer they had given.
00:55:54 <FireFly> I can't be bothered to see if that is the right amount of 'had's
00:55:55 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: had in two in a row always looks strange to me because I think I made a mistake but it means "hafði haft" in Icelandic
00:57:02 <FireFly> It's nice to know why it is what it is, though
00:57:26 <Zarutian> oerjan: I do not read IPA so I am not sure but it is one single sound to me instead of two
00:59:06 <zzo38> (I remember in the book they had eleven "had"s)
01:00:18 <shachaf> FireFly's book, while zzo38's book had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the channel.
01:00:50 <oerjan> Zarutian: well i think english people have the same problem recognizing many of their diphthongs as diphthongs.
01:01:12 <oerjan> *native english-speaking
01:01:31 <Zarutian> oerjan: perhaps I speak it so quickly that I do not notice
01:01:55 <FireFly> I was a bit surprised to learn that native swedish (which is to say, swedish, sans some relatively recent loanwords) has no diphtongs at all
01:02:01 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.sssscomic.com/index.php?id=characters lists... kitty
01:02:02 <FireFly> err, in the standard dialect, I mean
01:02:04 <Zarutian> oerjan: but the au diphtong is fun one to explain to tourists
01:03:07 <hppavilion[1]> Age: 1; Nationality: World; Area of Birth: The silent world(?); Profession: Cat; Languages: Meow
01:06:20 <Zarutian> btw talking about IPA and such. Do any of you know of a speach to IPA strings apps that do not require net connection?
01:07:26 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: I think the size of each band and rectangle are the same across all the nordic flags. It is just the colours and where they go that changes
01:09:04 <Lymia> #esoteric micro Redcode hill
01:09:11 <Lymia> Maximum program size limited by IRC lines
01:09:28 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: but you should look into the heraldic crests of the countries. They are pretty neat
01:16:01 <FireFly> Zarutian: the size of the "inner" lines/border between cross and fields might vary?
01:16:08 <FireFly> between say the norwegian and icelandic flags
01:16:37 <Zarutian> FireFly: a bit yes but not that much that it is visually distinctive
01:17:22 <Zarutian> I probably could dig out the exact ratios specified in the flaglaws if you want
01:17:32 <FireFly> There are nordic cross flags outside of the country ones, too, like the red-and-yellow for scania and the black-and-white (I think it was) for fennoswedes?
01:17:44 <FireFly> hmm, that question mark should've been inside the parenthesis
01:18:15 <fizzie> I just know the Finnish one, which has an aspect ratio of 18:11 with a cross thickness of 3 units.
01:18:33 <fizzie> (And the left edge of the vertical bar at x=5.)
01:18:40 <FireFly> Oh, no, the fennoswedish one is basically identical to the scanian one
01:18:52 <FireFly> apparently there is a gallery on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Cross_flag
01:20:21 <fizzie> The Swedish one seems to be narrower than the finnish one.
01:21:01 <fizzie> 5:2:9/4:2:4 vs. 5:3:10/4:3:4.
01:21:33 <fizzie> I guess it's the same thing as with any other thing that should be standard but isn't.
01:23:10 <fizzie> And Denmark does 3:1:(4.5-4.25)/3:1:3, apparently.
01:25:51 <fizzie> As for the heraldry, obligatory reference: http://satwcomic.com/coat-of-arms
01:26:40 <fizzie> (Come on, guys, the sword is *behind* the head, not through it.)
01:27:28 <oerjan> @tell APic <APic> Why, oh why, did not i take the blue Pill? <-- you did. it's just that it makes you think you took the red one hth
01:29:50 <hppavilion[1]> The Big Swedish Dictionary of Bigness is still being worked on, and will be done in 2017
01:30:23 <oerjan> Den Stora Svenska Storordboken
01:30:59 <Zarutian> oerjan: reminds me of going to the automatic ATM machine
01:31:42 <fizzie> And typing in your personal PIN number.
01:31:46 <Zarutian> oerjan: oh, or are storord big words? (meaning long ones such as the Icelandic)
01:33:09 <Zarutian> ( Hellisheiðarvegavinnuverkamannakaffiskúrslykklakippunaglhetta )
01:33:10 <idris-bot> (input):1:63: error: expected: "#",
01:33:41 <oerjan> Zarutian: that was the intent, although it was a joke
01:33:50 <hppavilion[1]> Why doesn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_last_known_speakers_of_languages include English?
01:34:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it changes too fast hth
01:34:28 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: violates the anti retro causal laws that will be enacted sometime in the future
01:35:33 <hppavilion[1]> (Uncyclopedia needs to include mundane pages- like "List of American Fertilizer Manufacturers", which would include Donald Trump as the world's largest producer)
01:36:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you could make it hth
01:36:37 <oerjan> although they may have some anti-politics rule for all i know
01:36:42 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( Can one count as a native speaker of a language if one's parents raised one speaking it, but it was a second language for both of them? )
01:36:51 * oerjan hasn't looked at uncyclopedia in ages
01:37:03 <Zarutian> oerjan: would not want to see the politics on that anti-politics rule
01:37:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: if not, then there are no native hebrew speakers hth
01:37:58 <oerjan> because no one spoke it natively for a long period
01:38:00 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: native speaker of a language must learn it as "móðurmál", meaning the first language the learn to speak
01:38:43 <FireFly> <hppavilion[1]> The Big Swedish Dictionary of Bigness is still being worked on, and will be done in 2017 ← SAOB?
01:39:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: incidentally, that's how creole languages are created - children of people speaking pidgins intuitively flesh out the language until it becomes a real one
01:39:16 <FireFly> I was wondering if it's SAOB you're referring to, or something else
01:39:41 <FireFly> "The dictionary has approximately 450,000 main entries, and is expected to be complete around 2017." oh wow, feels weird
01:39:54 <FireFly> (that it is almost finished, that is)
01:40:45 <Zarutian> and then there are conlangs such as esparanto or lojban (the latter is good for meta lingustic discussions and when you want to winnow away uninentional ambigiouty)
01:40:48 <hppavilion[1]> Fun Fact: Wikipedia is actually plural, referring to the collection of pages (wikipedes) found on the site.
01:42:11 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: so? I thought it was obvious from the stem -pedia from encyclopedia. (Which means literally encircling (all topics) pages aiui)
01:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> "An accident, also known as an unintentional injury, is an undesirable incidental and unplanned event that could have been prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence."
01:45:06 <zzo38> I was writing this program http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/artifact/7c71bcf80cfcdf8d and I wanted to think of what should be the best algorithm for figuring out sharing meaning codes. I did think of a few things but don't know what would be best.
02:02:55 <FireFly> Can you really be your own successor?
02:06:32 <fizzie> There's a station called "Clinton" in Chicago on the Green Line 'L' train, the train info signs say "Clinton is next" when they're approaching.
02:06:44 <fizzie> (Fortunately the L doesn't stop at Trump Tower.)
02:08:37 <quintopia> you werent in chitown last i heard?
02:08:53 <fizzie> I visited there last week, we had a big team thing.
02:08:58 <fizzie> At least I think it was last week.
02:09:30 <quintopia> chicagos a great place. why not just move there?
02:10:07 <fizzie> It's in the United States of Amber.
02:10:24 <fizzie> I did like the skyline, but I think I liked visiting more than living there.
02:10:48 <fizzie> Here's a boat photo: https://goo.gl/photos/AhRMjpgFKCMSVYEQ6
02:12:29 <oerjan> it seems to insist i log in, after showing the photo for a short moment
02:12:41 <fizzie> There's probably some sort of a better link.
02:13:14 <fizzie> But I don't know how to get one.
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02:15:21 <fizzie> oerjan: https://zem.fi/tmp/c/
02:15:31 <fizzie> You got a bonus photo as well.
02:15:38 <quintopia> i have no idea what us of amber means
02:16:11 <fizzie> I ate at a place where they just served various bits and pieces of meat.
02:16:32 <Zarutian> quintopia: look up amber alerts
02:16:57 <quintopia> Zarutian: did someone go missing in chi recently?
02:17:47 <fizzie> quintopia: Something like that. It was at ZED451.
02:17:51 <Zarutian> quintopia: no? I am not sure by what you mean by chi. Chicago?
02:18:05 <fizzie> Also I ate a chi-style hot dog and chi-style deep dish pizza, because that seemed to be the thing to do.
02:18:36 <fizzie> And I picked "Amber" as a random-ish word starting with "Am", as a reference to the Zelazny books.
02:19:05 <quintopia> did you make it to a 2nd city show?
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02:19:43 <fizzie> quintopia: No, because that was a mutually exclusive organized option with the Chicago Architecture Foundation river cruise.
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02:20:54 <fizzie> I didn't do that much sightseeing, just walked around Millennium Park and the lakefront area a bit.
02:21:04 <quintopia> i didnt even realize river cruises were a thing. the chi river seems...a bit cramped
02:21:32 <quintopia> near where the segway and bike tours leave
02:22:12 <fizzie> I have several photos of the Bean, it looks pretty weird from below what with all the reflections.
02:23:42 <fizzie> The week before that I was in Cambridge, saw the MIT Museum and the Mount Auburn cemetery. They were good places to visit as well.
02:23:54 <fizzie> Though it was the most car-oriented cemetery I've ever been at.
02:24:13 <fizzie> (Admittedly quite big and hilly. But still.)
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02:33:00 <\oren\> What if the trumpers form a new confederacy?
02:33:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:33:43 <\oren\> then hillary clinton's successor will be noone, like Gorbachev, and Nicolas II
02:35:58 <\oren\> As "PResident of the Soviet Union", Gorbachev had no predecessor, and no successor
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02:37:51 <APNG> gah help me promote EPNG https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/60a025d5901f67b2e549dca4a0ba7d46
02:38:04 <APNG> I wanna do this to piss ppl off mostly, and make esolangs a bit more mainstream
02:38:17 <APNG> making esolangs more mainstream would piss ppl off
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02:52:08 <FireFly> and 4 is 'fyra'; those are the only two though
02:52:12 <hppavilion[1]> Making people pay for a course on how to use Linux is just wrong
02:52:17 <FireFly> well, at least the only digits
02:53:04 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Maybe a number for which the name is seven digits shorter?
02:53:16 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm only really counting letters- dashes and spaces are excluded)
02:54:54 <FireFly> APNG: generally doing something only to piss people off seems ill-advised
02:55:34 <APNG> FireFly, I wanna piss ppl off *through* making esolangs more mainstream
02:55:52 <APNG> I personally think esolangs should be more mainstream
02:55:59 <FireFly> I'm not sure if they should be
02:56:09 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: they linked a spec up there
02:57:14 <hppavilion[1]> APNG: Is the point that it looks like a legit language with a buzzwordiful description, so businesses will make their use it to be more sleek and modern and popular with the youth, but the language itself is bizarre and impossible to understand?
02:58:11 <hppavilion[1]> Is it the gist? because it doesn't look like a real spec, just a thought
02:59:12 <FireFly> APNG: my first question reading the spec was "what does 'executable data' mean? native machine code? embedded ELF/exe? shellscript? undefined?" and my second one was "where did that shebang line in the example come from?"
02:59:40 <APNG> FireFly, it's an embedded file
02:59:55 <FireFly> maybe it should mention that somewhere :P
02:59:58 <APNG> the format of such file is not specified
03:00:12 <APNG> because different systems use different formats
03:00:35 <FireFly> It simply says it contains executable data, doesn't seem to mention 'file' at all except at the end in the context "PNG files"
03:00:52 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: well the gist is called "EPNG spec"
03:02:26 <APNG> hppavilion[1], why?
03:02:52 <hppavilion[1]> APNG: Is the point that it's a PNG containing an executable as well?
03:03:02 <APNG> hppavilion[1], yes, that's the point
03:03:52 <APNG> hppavilion[1], it's no more dangerous than .bat files
03:04:29 <APNG> actually I'd say it's less dangerous than .bat files, because some servers are vulnerable to .bat files while no servers are vulnerable to .png files
03:04:56 <APNG> (except the ones that let you embed PHP in .png files, but those should burn anyway)
03:06:23 <hppavilion[1]> In the trivial use case, you just do 'if x and y: / block 1 / else: / block 2'
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03:08:07 <hppavilion[1]> This could be interesting, though the use case hasn't immediately come to mind
03:14:34 <hppavilion[1]> Oh look, obvious bullshit: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-25/standing-desks-are-coming-for-your-children
03:15:20 <hppavilion[1]> There was a statistically significant (by which we mean 5%, the bare minimum of significance) improvement in the BMI of kids using them in a 400-participant study over 2 years
03:15:49 <hppavilion[1]> The study was also done by a guy who makes standing desks for schools, but there's obviously no conflict of interest here.
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03:38:28 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/wob_jona{,s}
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03:56:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Challenger5 * New user account
03:58:26 <HackEgo> 2600//2600 Hz is the tone made by Captain Crunch's whistle.
03:58:59 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
03:59:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49650&oldid=49630 * Challenger5 * (+256) Introduced myself
04:00:22 -!- Frooxius has joined.
04:00:33 <oerjan> a person who can follow instructions!
04:01:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49651&oldid=49069 * Challenger5 * (+68)
04:03:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49652&oldid=47069 * Challenger5 * (+44) Clarified some things
04:03:42 -!- Froox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:04:59 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed quotes --template '{date(date)} {desc}\n'
04:05:01 <HackEgo> Wed Aug 17 03:12:31 2016 +0000 <oerjan> sled quotes//1287s,I.*,[...] & [...], \ Tue Aug 16 20:47:38 2016 +0000 <shachaf> addquote <zzo38> I told someone to tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU. \ Sun Aug 14 02:31:47 2016 +0000 <oerjan> addquote <int-e> I couldn\'t help thinking that maybe if one considers the ramifications in
04:05:19 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed quotes --template "{date(date, '%Y')} {desc}\n"
04:05:20 <HackEgo> hg: parse error: filter date expects one argument
04:05:27 <shachaf> http://fossies.org/linux/mercurial/mercurial/help/templates.txt suggests that that should work.
04:05:38 <shachaf> Old hg version or something?
04:06:24 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/tanebvention --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n"
04:06:25 <HackEgo> 2016-08-01 <shachaf> slwd tanebvention//s# w# metar, w# \ 2016-07-25 <shachaf> slwd tanebvention//s#Go,#Go, Windows 98,# \ 2016-07-15 <shachaf> sled wisdom/tanebvention//s/the/Fueue, the/ \ 2016-06-21 <shachaf> slwd tanebvention//s#p#Tanebventions, p# \ 2016-06-17 <oerjan> sled wisdom/tanebvention//s/ [(]math[)]/: math/ \ 2016-06-13 <oerjan> le/rn
04:06:26 <oerjan> mind you, it took em 3 tries. :(
04:06:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49653 * Challenger5 * (+179) Created a user page.
04:06:36 <shachaf> That's doable, but I wanted a time as well as a date.
04:06:40 <shachaf> But maybe a time is excessive.
04:07:16 <shachaf> `mkx bin/doag//hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
04:07:35 <shachaf> `mkx bin/dowg//doag "wisdom/$1"
04:07:41 <HackEgo> 2015-08-13 <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2015-06-07 <zzo38> learn 2600 Hz is the tone made by Captain Crunch\'s whistle.
04:07:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49654&oldid=49653 * Challenger5 * (+1)
04:09:41 <shachaf> `8ball does outlook work good?
04:10:00 <oerjan> `8ball What's up dowg?
04:10:23 <shachaf> `8ball what's the outlook on pooches?
04:10:31 <shachaf> `8ball says yes on pooches
04:11:02 <pikhq> `8ball QVIS·CUSTODIET·IPSOS·CVSTODES
04:11:26 <shachaf> pikhq: what's your attitude on pooches
04:11:43 <pikhq> An adamant fan at that.
04:12:03 <oerjan> `8ball QVOVSQVE·TANDEM·ABVTERE·PIKHQ·HACKEGONE·NOSTRA
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04:14:28 <hppavilion[1]> A man known only as "Dean": "You're a revisionist"
04:14:58 <shachaf> Even more visionary than a regular visionist.
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04:15:53 <hppavilion[1]> (He didn't laugh though. I think he may have gotten his sense of humor surgically removed. Though he's also german, so...)
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04:16:44 <oerjan> itym "surgically revised" hth
04:17:21 <oerjan> i do nazi what german has to do with it.
04:17:56 <shachaf> Are you this data type? data Froo f a = L a | B (Froo f (f a))
04:17:58 <zzo38> What does "QVIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES" means?
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04:18:37 <pikhq> zzo38: "Who will guard the guards themselves?"
04:18:55 <shachaf> who will pooch the pooches themselves?
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04:19:56 <oerjan> QVIS CANET IPSOS CANES
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04:24:38 <Sgeo> // Please do not give it a custom ktyp or make it cool in any way
04:24:38 <Sgeo> // whatsoever, because players are insane. Usually, not being dragged
04:24:38 <Sgeo> // down by sanity is good, but this is not the case here.
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04:30:42 <APNG> ppl care about sanity?
04:30:51 <APNG> I know scientists and engineers don't
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04:31:11 <shachaf> Is there some categorical justification for Free?
04:31:15 <shachaf> It's kind of like a free monad.
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04:33:10 <oerjan> shachaf: um, you mean it _isn't_ a free monad?
04:33:23 <shachaf> No, that would be data Free f a = L a | B (f (Free f a))
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04:34:02 <oerjan> isn't that what Free is?
04:34:33 * oerjan also trapped himself, and starts whistling
04:35:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i thought that was how Free _was_ defined.
04:35:09 <shachaf> he had it coming / he had it coming / he only had himself to blame
04:35:23 <shachaf> Well, Free is defined by being left adjoint to the forgetful functor or something.
04:35:28 <shachaf> But Free and Froo are not the same type.
04:35:49 <oerjan> ...did you misspell a bit above
04:36:38 <shachaf> Now I see why you were confusel.
04:37:45 <oerjan> based on the backscroll, it may be a free monad over the pingout functor.
04:38:00 <shachaf> "The method employed I would gladly explain, / While I have it so clear in my head, / If I had but the time and you had but the brain -- / But much yet remains to be said."
04:38:28 <shachaf> Oh, I was going to ask the what the pingout functor was.
04:39:34 <oerjan> named after the famous french category theorist Edouard Pingout
04:49:57 <hppavilion[1]> Does n/m+o/p = (n+o)/(m+p)? I don't remember this being true, but I'm not sure
04:50:56 <shachaf> @check \n m o p -> (n/m+o/p) == ((n+o)/(m+p))
04:50:59 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
04:51:16 <shachaf> @check \n m o p -> all (/= 0) [n,m,o,p] ==> (n/m+o/p) == ((n+o)/(m+p))
04:51:19 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Show Test.QuickCheck.Safe.SProperty) arising from a use o...
04:51:43 <shachaf> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [n,m,o,p] || (n/m+o/p) == ((n+o)/(m+p))
04:51:46 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 3291 shrinks):
04:51:46 <lambdabot> 37.170373475361615 0.10771071128386465 -1.0578161875294434 -0.6073094205635062
04:51:54 <shachaf> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [n,m,o,p::Rational] || (n/m+o/p) == ((n+o)/(m+p))
04:51:57 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 6 shrinks):
04:51:57 <lambdabot> (-3406868177675) % 2677559980947 4350826311759 % 167300784848 5458341750827 ...
04:52:37 <hppavilion[1]> What I'm getting here is that the only falsifications are either mathematically invalid or the result of computational limits
04:53:26 <oerjan> it shouldn't be that hard to falsify that equation since it's false almost everywhere...
04:53:54 <shachaf> I was expecting better of QuickCheck.
04:54:02 <shachaf> > (\n m o p -> (n/m+o/p, (n+o)/(m+p))) 1 2 3 4
04:56:11 <oerjan> i was going to suggest 1,2,1,2
04:56:37 <shachaf> > (\n m o p -> (n/m+o/p, (n+o)/(m+p))) 1 1 1 1
04:57:44 <oerjan> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [n,m,o,p::Rational] || (n/m+o/p) /= ((n+o)/(m+p))
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04:58:30 <oerjan> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [n,m,o,p::Rational] || (n/m+o/p) /= ((n+o)/(m+p))
04:58:38 <shachaf> lambdabot: you're scow at shrinking hth
04:59:16 <oerjan> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [n,m,o,p::Integer] || (n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p))
04:59:19 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Exception: 'Ratio has zero denominator' (after 10 tests and 4 sh...
04:59:56 <lambdabot> Voters quickly forget what a man says.
04:59:57 <oerjan> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [n,m,o,p::Integer] || m+p == 0 || (n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p))
05:00:00 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 4 tests):
05:00:09 <shachaf> oerjan: why not just add m+p to the list tdnh
05:00:34 <oerjan> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [m+p,n,m,o,p::Integer] || (n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p))
05:00:45 <oerjan> this is not going too well
05:00:53 <shachaf> You should use ==> instead of ||
05:00:57 <lambdabot> STestable prop => Bool -> prop -> Test.QuickCheck.Safe.SProperty
05:01:13 <oerjan> i thought it wasn't working for you
05:01:21 <shachaf> Right, so you should figure out what went wrong.
05:01:43 <oerjan> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [m+p,n,m,o,p::Integer] ==> (n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p))
05:01:46 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Test.QuickCheck.Safe.SProperty’ with actual ...
05:01:54 <oerjan> @check \n m o p -> any (== 0) [m+p,n,m,o,p::Integer] ==> ((n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p)))
05:01:57 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Exception: 'Ratio has zero denominator' (after 1 test):
05:02:10 <shachaf> Except you need to invert the left side.
05:02:22 <oerjan> @check \n m o p -> all (/= 0) [m+p,n,m,o,p::Integer] ==> ((n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p)))
05:03:00 <shachaf> @check \n m o p -> all (/= 0) [m,p,m+p::Integer] ==> ((n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p)))
05:03:10 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a scientific journal covering the psychology of housecats?
05:03:25 <shachaf> @check \n m o p -> all (/= 0) [m,p,m+p::Integer] ==> ((n%m+o%p) == ((n+o)%(m+p)))
05:03:27 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test and 3 shrinks):
05:03:37 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, i was wondering if the original was _always_ false.
05:03:50 <shachaf> @check \n m o p -> all (/= 0) [m,p,m+p::Integer] ==> ((n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p)))
05:03:53 <shachaf> @check \n m o p -> all (/= 0) [m,p,m+p::Integer] ==> ((n%m+o%p) /= ((n+o)%(m+p)))
05:03:59 <shachaf> it's false 200% of the time
05:05:35 <shachaf> Yes, everyone said it was false.
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05:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> "How many angels are there who know a dance that can be done on the head of a pin"
05:10:42 <shachaf> > (\a b c d -> (a/b+c/d, (a+c)/(b+d))) 1 1 (-4) 2
05:10:59 <shachaf> oerjan: There are certainly special cases where it's true.
05:11:22 <oerjan> i concluded you needed a negative number
05:14:40 <oerjan> (a+c)/(b+d) = a/b * b/(b+d) + c/d * d/(b+d), so it's a convex combination
05:14:57 <oerjan> thus in cannot be the sum unless negative numbers is involved.
05:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, the 26th First Annual Ig Nobel Prize Ceremony is coming up in september
05:19:45 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, when Abraham was looking for people in Sodom, he should have checked each person for goodness, then went before the LORD with the number he found, and asked whether that satisfies the baseline. Duh.
05:21:57 <zzo38> Do you know who win the prize?
05:22:32 <shachaf> Is ORD a category, like CAT?
05:23:20 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: How should he have checked each person for goodness?
05:23:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Detect Evil, I think.
05:24:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: iirc abraham wasn't _in_ sodom hth
05:25:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I thought he went to Sodom to find the good people
05:25:49 <hppavilion[1]> In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Owns_the_Future%3F, Jarod Lanier rants about how Google gets a bunch of money from using the translations based on other peoples' work without paying them. He proposes an alternative system, where you source everything and a series of "micropayments" compensates people for anything new they put on the web.
05:26:27 <hppavilion[1]> (a) how does this affect FOSS and (b) As a person who has ever played a game ever, the phrase "micropayments" (similar to "microtransations") sets off alarms
05:26:38 <shachaf> "And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look back where all those people and their homes had been. But she did look back, and I love her for that, because it was so human. So she was turned into a pillar of salt. So it goes."
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05:31:04 <shachaf> The book is Slaughterhouse Five.
05:31:09 <shachaf> I think it was on your banned list earlier.
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05:33:07 <hppavilion[1]> "9. Every document can contain a royalty mechanism at any desired degree of granularity to ensure payment on any portion accessed, including virtual copies ("transclusions") of all or part of the document."
05:33:30 <shachaf> I saw a talk by Nelson once.
05:33:34 <hppavilion[1]> "Oh, you only bought the version with the first half of each letter"
05:34:44 <hppavilion[1]> "8. Permission to link to a document is explicitly granted by the act of publication."
05:34:56 <hppavilion[1]> If you put it on the internet, people get to look at it
05:36:00 <hppavilion[1]> Links can be followed from all endpoints? Not sure if that's entirely desirable
05:37:03 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if someone on particularlyfilthyporn.ass links to mylittlepony.yay?
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05:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink assumes that the user knows what Wikipedia is in explaining how Hyperlinks work
05:52:33 <myname> hppavilion[1]: who cares
05:53:21 <myname> how would you explain it without defining dozens of pther stuff first
06:03:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I was making a joke. Because the wikipedia page assumes you've ever used a wikipedia page.
06:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, if you look at a clock when you aren't wearing pants the moment it changes to 11:34, you're cursed for eternity. Who knew?
06:13:49 <\oren\> Hell yeah, i made france go commie!
06:14:23 <\oren\> Feel the power of my soviet propaganda!
06:14:38 <\oren\> (I'm playing Hearts of Iron 4)
06:15:28 <shachaf> whoa, they've improved the game a lot since the version in Windows 3.1
06:18:50 <\oren\> It's awesome. I'm playing the Soviet Union as if Stalin wasn't insane with paranoia
06:19:49 <\oren\> I fomented a communist uprising in France, creating the French Commune
06:21:30 <\oren\> I'm pretty sure Britain will be commies too by 1940
06:22:10 <\oren\> Of course, this could backfire and I'll end up at war with america
06:27:20 <shachaf> man, the queen of spades is scow
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06:57:14 <zzo38> I thought of to make up such thing in Magic: the Gathering cards, as new cards with multi types such as: planeswalker land, Aura enchantment planeswalker, Aura enchantment land, world land, instant creature.
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07:03:59 <zzo38> In order to make a instant creature, I have written a new rule (or a clarification to an existing rule, depending on your point of view), in order to make it to work.
07:04:22 <\oren\> I'm glad I spent the extra money for the Sabaton music DLC
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07:15:10 <\oren\> Aha! my propaganda is so strong, soon hitler will lose his majority of public support among Germans!
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07:37:33 <zzo38> Does anyone frame themself for a crime that has not been committed (and does not intend do commit such crime)?
07:43:43 -!- augur has joined.
07:44:32 <zzo38> Wikipedia mentions someone who voluntarily confessed to a crime that he could not possibly have committed; he claimed he started a fire by throwing a bomb through a window in a bakery, but actually he the bakery had no windows, he did not enter the country until after the fire started, and he was crippled and unable to throw a bomb.
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08:44:19 <fizzie> Re len(name(n)) = n, I'm pretty sure we discussed this before, and Finnish (IIRC) has only 5 ("viisi"); but len(name(8)) = 9 ("kahdeksan") and len(name(9)) = 8 ("yhdeksän").
08:44:58 <shachaf> In Hebrew and English 4 is the only number with that property.
08:45:18 <shachaf> It was presented to us as a puzzle in maybe third grade, in Hebrew. I was surprised that it worked in English too.
08:46:50 <pikhq> Hmm. If we go with characters for normal writing. Japanese has only 1 ("一").
08:47:21 <pikhq> Though if we consider hiragana, there's... None.
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08:48:49 <Taneb> 40 is, I believe, the only number whose English spelling is in alphabetical order
08:50:40 <pikhq> Hrm. Wait, that's the Sinitic numbers. If we use the Japonic numbers (hitotsu futatsu mittsu, instead of ichi ni san), then there's one which fits in hiragana; 3 ("みっつ").
08:50:55 <pikhq> And one which fits in normal script! 2 ("二つ")
08:51:30 <pikhq> ... And one which fits in Roman alphabet; 3 ("san").
08:52:19 <fizzie> Finnish gets tantalisingly close for some later numbers (11 -> 10 "yksitoista", 12 -> 11 "kaksitoista") but doesn't quite manage to match.
08:52:28 <Taneb> Name length is roughly proportional to the logarithm, right?
08:53:08 <fizzie> (Special words for 11, 12 instead of using the same pattern as other 1x numbers are a scow.)
08:53:17 <shachaf> I'm surprised that Go interface vtables are computed at runtime.
08:53:49 <shachaf> I spent a bit wondering how else it would work. But it turns out they just do it at runtime, type-checking and everything.
08:55:16 <shachaf> Sgeo: Did you ever write any Ada?
08:55:30 <Sgeo> shachaf, no :(
08:56:34 <Taneb> A friend recently finished an internship working with Go
08:56:46 <shachaf> Are you going to do an internship working with Go?
08:59:50 <Taneb> Not if I can help it
09:04:26 <Taneb> https://www.barrucadu.co.uk/posts/2016-08-25-three-months-of-go.html
09:04:38 <Taneb> That's his write up of his time with Go
09:07:27 <shachaf> Seems like a Haskell person.
09:07:49 <shachaf> pikhq: Did you write much Go?
09:07:56 <shachaf> Did you use what's-it-called?
09:08:19 <Taneb> He's doing a PhD on concurrency testing in Haskell, I'm fairly sure he's a Haskell person
09:08:27 <shachaf> I shouldn't say the name, but fortunately I've forgotten the name anyway.
09:19:09 <fizzie> About the only Go I've written has been [NAME WITHHELD].
09:25:08 <Sgeo> "absence of evidence is evidence of absence of evidence"
09:25:58 <fizzie> The thing you can use for computing numbers from logs data.
09:26:33 <fizzie> My Google app is a-broken. :(
09:27:59 <shachaf> Wait, is this a thing whose name is public?
09:29:08 <fizzie> I tried to Google for the name, but like I said, the app's broken. It's a very generic name anyway.
09:30:31 <fizzie> Well, the http://www.unofficialgoogledatascience.com/ blog mentions the name. But maybe they're rogue agents.
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09:33:53 <fizzie> Well, the Go replacement for Sawzall, anyway. (Apparently Sawzall's been open-soured so the name should be safe.)
09:34:14 <shachaf> I wrote some Sawzall which I think got checked in at one point.
09:34:36 <shachaf> Sawzall was a scow language to write that code in.
09:36:02 <shachaf> But better than the alternative.
09:37:24 <fizzie> I've also written a go out
09:37:52 <fizzie> A Go program to output a serialised protobuf.
09:38:51 <fizzie> Because I couldn't remember if [NAME WITHHELD] could do it that way too.
09:41:40 <fizzie> (That's another name I can find mentioned on a handful of pages but don't know if I should. Not that I really see why it would matter much.)
09:42:38 <shachaf> A lot of people leak a lot of names.
09:43:07 <shachaf> The code name of Gmail is not a secret, though.
09:43:34 <shachaf> Well... Google announced it publicly. But maybe on Google+.
09:43:41 <shachaf> So it might still be considered secret.
09:44:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure whether the code name of the search app is secret, because I'm fairly sure the string is in the .apk somewhere.
09:45:45 <shachaf> The code name of Google web search? Or your thing?
09:47:43 <fizzie> The one that's just named "Google".
09:48:40 <fizzie> (It's "Velvet", it's right there in the .apk file name in Android images, there's a bunch of people asking what it is.)
09:50:20 <shachaf> I can hardly stand fabrics like velvet.
09:50:49 <fizzie> There's a subproject called Velour.
09:51:06 <fizzie> And probably a bunch of other fabric names.
09:52:37 <fizzie> Anyway, we've got nothing when it compares to the forest of code names on the server side of the search stack, I can't even follow their conversation usually.
09:54:52 <fizzie> I got a t-shirt and a hoodie with my PA acronym on it last week. It says "API", that's a nice unambiguous name.
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11:21:43 <izabera> https://nicknash.me/2012/07/31/adversaries/ this is very interesting
11:58:36 <int-e> is this in any way connected to the aqsort earlier this week?
11:59:00 <int-e> (hmm. somewhat silly question, I'm looking for some causal link, rather than thematic)
12:03:22 <int-e> never mind, the second paragraph answers my question...
12:08:27 <shachaf> Oh, I like this perspective on sorting algorithms.
12:08:27 <int-e> "Rather than do all that reading though, we’ll just attack the constant factors ..." tsk tsk tsk.
12:09:13 <shachaf> I'd like to see animations of the DAGs of various inputs through various algorithms as they're being sorted.
12:09:38 <shachaf> Has someone made something like that?
12:15:38 <int-e> Hmm, that could be fun.
12:16:40 <int-e> in other "news" the Human Resource Machine is a cute little game but costs about twice as much as it should, IMHO.
12:18:14 <shachaf> It might be interesting with things other than sorting algorithms.
12:19:42 <shachaf> int-e: It looks from the trailer like a typical drag-and-drop visual programming game with blocks and so on.
12:21:15 <shachaf> I guess that's a pretty wide genre.
12:21:26 <shachaf> Hmm, I should do more TIS-100 maybe.
12:25:51 <int-e> no it's not much more than that... it's just fun to have that person running around executing the instructions
12:26:56 <shachaf> There are other questions. What if the graph might have cycles? Then your job is to find strongly connected components or something. What sorts of sorting algorithms would you use for that?
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12:27:24 <shachaf> $10 is twice as much as it should cost?
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12:38:56 <shachaf> I liked it, though I don't seem to have played very much of it.
12:39:27 <shachaf> You should try it given the other games and things that you liked.
12:39:35 <int-e> I'm used to buying games cheaply (humble bundle, gog special offers) ... that may play a role here.
12:40:04 <int-e> (when it comes to judging the price)
12:40:11 <shachaf> It looks like full price is $7.
12:42:14 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Well, being limited is the point.
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12:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> there were really basic things, mostly concerning data flow, that you couldn't do without building the program around it
12:44:49 <int-e> You have an accumulator, memory cells, and in the end you get 11 instructions (in, out, store, load, add, sub, jumps (unconditional, if zero, if nonzero), and two CISC operations: postfix ++ and -- on a memory cell, simultaneously loading the result value.
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12:47:34 <int-e> oh and there's indirect addressing (pointer in a memory cell).
12:48:24 <int-e> I guess I shouldn't complain about the price too much.
12:48:38 * int-e goes browse for reviews on "Obduction"
12:49:13 <int-e> 86% metacritic... a promising start
12:49:17 <shachaf> I've been hearing people talk about it in another channel.
12:49:29 <shachaf> Apparently there's no zip (lightning bolt) support.
12:49:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i wouldn't trust aggregate game reviews as far as i could throw them
12:51:01 <shachaf> Remember that Magic: The Gathering tournament where the judges decided that all the fast-paced decks were invalid?
12:51:45 <shachaf> Hmm, that doesn't even work.
12:51:56 <int-e> "You can tell there were plans at one time or another to build out Obduction into a slightly bigger game, with a few awkwardly-empty areas and a bit too much space between some of the important elements."
12:52:22 <int-e> if there's no zip mode that will really be draining a lot of fun out of the game
12:53:30 <int-e> sounds like I don't really want to apy 30 euros for it right now, but will keep watching for offers.
12:54:23 <int-e> (and why does $30 translates into €30)
12:54:24 <shachaf> Better to play TIS-100, right?
12:54:38 <int-e> or finish snakebird
12:55:11 <int-e> Or give the Tangle another try. (Spider And Web)
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12:56:09 <int-e> how many levels does TIS-100 have? (HRM has 36 that involve actual programming, and some coffe breaks with *very* random story)
12:56:32 <shachaf> Do you prefer GOG or Steam?
12:57:05 <int-e> (hmm, I don't even have the linux steam client)
12:57:18 <int-e> (and for puzzle games like this I don't want to boot up windows)
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13:26:08 <shachaf> Anyway, time to go to sleep.
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13:36:47 <shachaf> int-e: The gog.com front page says "$1 is not €1" and promises to make up the difference. Do they not actually do that?
13:37:14 <int-e> shachaf: to some extent, yes.
13:38:28 <int-e> shachaf: so a) some games actually have adjusted prices (for example, TIS 100 would've cost EUR 6.29) and they add a coupon to the account for some games that don't have this price adjustment.
13:39:07 <int-e> Of course that means you only get the benefit if you purchase from them again... so there's a huge advertising angle to this, especially since the coupons expire after a while (6 months? a year?).
13:39:50 <int-e> boily: what's 1.4562?
13:39:58 <shachaf> They should just let inflation take care of it.
13:40:03 <boily> int-ello. EUR to CAD.
13:40:05 <int-e> shachaf: *and* nagging reminders when they do expire
13:40:15 <int-e> boily: makes sense, thanks
13:42:02 <int-e> "tesselated intelligence system", hmm.
13:42:43 <shachaf> int-e: Make sure to read the manual.
13:43:22 <int-e> Yeah, I already figured that that would be required.
13:44:11 <shachaf> I think you can also press F1 or something like that to get a summary.
13:44:20 <shachaf> Anyway, I was wrong before but now I'm really going to sleep.
13:45:11 <int-e> though the first level can be done without reading the manual ;)
13:45:25 <int-e> But I expect this kind of extrapolation has its limits.
14:02:16 * zgrep should play TIS-100 more
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14:04:42 <int-e> and boo for making the manual full of images
14:07:25 <int-e> (i.e. searching for a Mnemonic doesn't work, for no good reason)
14:09:53 <zgrep> Hm. Isn't it sort-of part of the story that it's just as can?
14:10:11 <int-e> maybe but it's still awful.
14:10:24 <int-e> there's https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=456879799 ...
15:02:47 <int-e> actually F1 proably satisfies my most urgent needs (as I found out half an hour ago)
15:05:41 <int-e> Anyway, one row down, but I should do some other things.
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15:21:47 <lambdabot> LOWI 271350Z 11006KT 040V140 9999 FEW080 31/17 Q1018 NOSIG
15:24:02 <int-e> and the 31 could be worse, I suppose, given the season.
15:24:27 <int-e> izabera: do you know how to read those?
15:25:04 <izabera> people have tried to teach me but i was stronger
15:25:06 <int-e> 31/17 mean: it's 31°C, so fairly hot; but dewpoint is 17°C so the air is quite dry.
15:25:35 <izabera> it's pointless, i'll forget in 20 minutes
15:25:40 <int-e> The 9999 is visibility, so the air is clear. Nothing wrong there.
15:25:55 <int-e> izabera: I'm trying to help you make sense of the current discussion.
15:26:11 <int-e> I don't care all that much whether you'll be confused again in the future.
15:26:44 <int-e> Where the "discussion" is, I guess, more of a monologue on my part.
15:27:34 <int-e> okay, who changed the mutt hotkey for "flag this message" from F (<shift>-f) to <Esc> f?
15:27:38 <izabera> it's a conversation between you and lambdabot afaict
15:28:04 <int-e> izabera: As you can see, I've moved on.
15:29:09 -!- int-e has set topic: Short attention sp... wow, look at this! | The string theory channel | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
15:29:32 <lifthras1ir> int-e: is FEW080 the wind direction and speed?
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15:32:15 <int-e> lifthras1ir: no, those are layers of clourds
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15:32:57 <int-e> 040V140 is wind (hmm, 40kph, various directions, gusts up to 140kph? I'd have to check)
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15:33:52 <int-e> hmm, actually I probably got that wrong
15:35:25 <lambdabot> ESSB 271420Z 27015KT CAVOK 22/06 Q1014
15:35:27 <int-e> 11006KT is wind (mostly from 110°, 6 knots) 040V140 indicates that the direction varies betwwo 40° and 140°
15:36:21 <int-e> so approximately NE to SE.
15:36:31 <FireFly> gusts up to 140 km/h sounds like it'd be a bit terrifying
15:41:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49655&oldid=47354 * Sesshomariu * (+235) /* Examples */
15:57:00 <izabera> someone gave me a crappy tablet with an allwinner a33 and 512m ram and .3mpx front camera and 8gb flash
15:57:12 <izabera> tell me 5 good reasons why i shouldn't turn this into a mini server
15:58:06 <Taneb> It doesn't have a DSL port
15:58:16 <Taneb> Can't connect to internet without a phone line
15:58:33 <Taneb> Or wait, did you say good reasons?
15:59:10 <izabera> i don't even have a phone line here
16:00:45 <Taneb> I do want to get my old Windows 98 computer up and running again
16:02:52 <FireFly> A server with a camera, that's novel
16:03:14 <izabera> an awful crappy camera that i would never use
16:03:17 <FireFly> I guess you could actually use the camera as an entropy source :D
16:03:46 <FireFly> Possibly more useful than it'd be as, y'know, a camera intended to take photos
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16:50:21 <oerjan> . o O ( to, tre, fire ) . o O ( en/ei/ett)
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16:55:18 <FireFly> I should've remembered it's to in norwegian
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17:01:47 <oerjan> they're their own length
17:02:06 <oerjan> or in alphabetic order.
17:02:22 <wob_jonas> finding the cycles of the function that takes number to length of representation in some language
17:02:56 <wob_jonas> (there's always just a finitely many cycles for any sane language, because all large enough numbers have much fewer letters than their value)
17:04:10 <wob_jonas> in Hungarian, the cycles are (2, 5) and (4)
17:07:05 <FireFly> wob_jonas: so the word for 2 is five letters and the one for 5 is two letters?
17:07:08 <wob_jonas> is there a language where there's a cycle to which you can get from only finitely many starting numbers by releated iteration?
17:08:35 <FireFly> Swedish has the problem that 1-10 sans 4,8 are three letters (4,8 are 4 letters)
17:08:49 <FireFly> Kind of ruins any attempts at nice cycles
17:10:27 <FireFly> well, fyra in swedish; oerjan's were norwegian
17:12:09 <wob_jonas> and how many numbers are there that have four letters?
17:13:48 <wob_jonas> 8, 11, 12. then there are probably infinitely many others that land there
17:15:00 <oerjan> 2,9,10 ; 3,5,7,13,14,16,18,23,25,27 ; 4,6,8,11,12,15,17,19,20,21,22,24,26,28,29
17:15:28 <oerjan> the first group doesn't get many hits up to 29
17:17:09 <oerjan> shouldn't have said that: 33,34,35,36,37,38 ; ; 30,31,32,39
17:17:39 <oerjan> so, probably infinitely many for all cycles
17:18:38 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i split the numbers according to which of 2,3,4 they end up in in norwegian
17:19:48 <oerjan> for what you want, you should probably look for a short length that no bigger numbers hit
17:19:51 <wob_jonas> in Hungarian, 20 and 100 have 4 letters, and that's enough to make them infinitely many
17:22:17 <FireFly> oerjan: hmm, now I'm wondering what the split between the three groups would look like if you take the limit
17:22:51 <FireFly> or if at some point all future numbers end in one of the sets
17:23:20 <oerjan> i don't think they can end in only one of the sets. too much spread already.
17:24:58 <oerjan> unless, i guess, you can somehow get them all into that 33-38 vortex :P
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17:25:17 <wob_jonas> (2), (3), (4) are the cycles in Esperanto too, and 8 -> 2, 10 -> 3, 20 -> 5 -> 4 so probably there are infinitely many numbers for each
17:26:59 <wob_jonas> you can try http://www.omniglot.com/language/numbers/index.htm
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17:28:25 <oerjan> 1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 5, 6 -> 3 -> 5, 7/8/9 -> 4, 10 -> 3 french seems to have only one
17:28:43 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, french only has one cycle
17:28:59 <myname> so i have two sets of points: n worker and m jobs. i want every job visited by one worker and the sum of the traveled way to be as minimal as possible. anybody knows a way better than n*m?
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17:29:20 <wob_jonas> german also only has one cycle, (4)
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17:33:52 <myname> otherwise the workers just do nothing
17:34:01 <myname> but yeah, < is the tricky part
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17:41:11 <myname> my approximation approach is: build an n-partition of the jobs, ?atch each worker with the nearest center
17:44:09 <myname> i am not even sure if thus is easier or harder than tsp
17:50:28 <oerjan> `learn NP is the complexity class of decisions that are No Problem.
17:50:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'np': NP is the complexity class of decisions that are No Problem.
17:53:56 <oerjan> `learn Minpoijjikop bfjoustioppl sdardqwcasf uyvjhyb mipjkpmo.
17:53:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'minpoijjikop': Minpoijjikop bfjoustioppl sdardqwcasf uyvjhyb mipjkpmo.
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17:55:37 <oerjan> this is the first language to have keyboard section harmony.
17:55:57 <oerjan> except for that ugly bfjoust loanword.
17:58:28 <oerjan> `learn P is the complexity class of problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
17:58:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'p': P is the complexity class of problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
17:58:52 <oerjan> `learn P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
17:58:54 <HackEgo> Relearned 'p': P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
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18:08:19 <wob_jonas> I need a computer with more memory
18:10:57 <oerjan> `lean NP-complete is the subset of NP to which all problems in P can be reduced, thus completely solving them.
18:10:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lean: not found
18:11:02 <oerjan> `learn NP-complete is the subset of NP to which all problems in P can be reduced, thus completely solving them.
18:11:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'np-complete': NP-complete is the subset of NP to which all problems in P can be reduced, thus completely solving them.
18:11:38 <oerjan> i think that should cover the important stuff
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18:25:43 <oerjan> `learn co-NP, invented in Soviet Russia, is the class of decisions for which you are No Problem.
18:25:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'co-np': co-NP, invented in Soviet Russia, is the class of decisions for which you are No Problem.
18:29:48 <HackEgo> Google your half-Word Haskell is Problem.
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18:32:02 <oerjan> `learn Google is where people are working on [NAME WITHHELD] and [REDACTED], without being evil at all.
18:32:04 <HackEgo> Relearned 'google': Google is where people are working on [NAME WITHHELD] and [REDACTED], without being evil at all.
18:32:18 <oerjan> (inspired by logreading)
18:33:43 <HackEgo> 2016-08-27 <oerjan> learn Google is where people are working on [NAME WITHHELD] and [REDACTED], without being evil at all. \ 2015-12-19 <tswett> learn Google your half-Word Haskell is Problem.
18:34:49 <oerjan> oh it was from his neural network
18:35:58 <oerjan> never mind, it was scow hth
18:36:38 <HackEgo> hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
18:37:07 <oerjan> the naming scheme keeps proliferating. shachaf made that yesterday.
18:37:34 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \
18:37:49 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/????: No such file or directory
18:37:59 <HackEgo> bin/1492 \ bin/2014 \ bin/2015 \ bin/2016 \ bin/2017 \ bin/as86 \ bin/bugs \ bin/calc \ bin/cats \ bin/ciol \ bin/cmds \ bin/ctof \ bin/dice \ bin/doag \ bin/döts \ bin/dowg \ bin/erro \ bin/evil \ bin/exps \ bin/fsck \ bin/ftoc \ bin/good \ bin/grph \ bin/gs2c \ bin/gs2x \ bin/halp \ bin/hoag \ bin/howg \ bin/json \ bin/list \ bin/luac \ bin/maim
18:38:18 <HackEgo> bin/doag \ bin/dowg \ bin/hoag \ bin/howg \ bin/ping \ bin/pong
18:38:27 <HackEgo> bin/hog \ bin/log \ bin/rng
18:38:51 <fizzie> `döts what does this do
18:39:06 <fizzie> I guess that was a bit obvious.
18:39:30 <oerjan> ëẍäcẗlÿ ẅḧäẗ ïẗ säÿs ön ẗḧë ẗïn.
18:48:00 <HackEgo> .melborP oN era taht snoisiced fo ssalc ytixelpmoc eht si PN
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18:57:57 <zzo38> Is there possible position in chess and/or shogi where a repetition occurs with both sides giving check on every move?
18:59:03 <alercah> zzo38: do you require it to be optimal play?
18:59:54 <alercah> it's definitely possible in chess
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19:12:54 <zzo38> Possible from any legal sequence of moves from the starting position
19:14:21 <lambdabot> ENVA 271750Z 28016KT 9999 VCSH SCT034 BKN047 13/09 Q1018 RMK WIND 670FT 29016KT
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20:38:38 <Jafet> presumably zzo38 wants a generalisation of http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess/check.html
20:42:07 <int-e> hmm, the TIS-100 histograms are nice but is there a way to see the actual records...
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20:47:12 <wob_jonas> you could ask it a bit more generally, saying what's the longest sequence of possible half-moves in chess such that each half-move gives check to the opponent
20:51:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess/check.html might be relevant (not exactly the same question, but close)
20:51:38 <Jafet> it's plausible that all such sequences must be finite in normal chess
20:52:12 <int-e> oh actually the statistics (as I see them) are misleading, buh.
20:53:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: this shows not a cycle, but 38 half-moves of check, but it uses the restriction that it doesn't allow promoted pieces
21:23:56 <Sgeo> "If your personality can be neatly assigned into a well-defined category, then you're a Bertrand. If it can't, you're a Russell." ~ @qntm
21:27:12 <zzo38> I doubt that your personality can be nearly assigned into a well-defined category. There are a lot of different ways to do such thing and yet I think still it is not so neatly assigned correctly in any case.
21:27:31 <Sgeo> Is "human" a well defined category of personality?
21:28:01 <Sgeo> "you may not think your brain is a supervillain. but 1) its called Brain and 2) it lives in a skull fortress"
21:29:44 <zzo38> I would think "human" is a well defined category of species probably. Of personality I don't know, but I suppose so; still it fails to explain much, other than instinctive stuff and a few others perhaps.
21:30:07 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure "human" is more of a genus than a species, but hey.
21:30:18 <zzo38> OK, well I don't know biology so well.
21:30:45 <Sgeo> pikhq, I think the distinction only really matters to dead people
21:30:58 <Sgeo> I don't think there are any Homo non-sapiens around these days
21:31:09 <Sgeo> Unless I'm misunderstanding
21:31:20 <pikhq> Yes, yes, all other human species are dead.
21:31:45 <pikhq> There are other hominids around, though.
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23:13:46 <\oren\> I just realized that Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia's leaders in this game are identical white haired blue eyed old men
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23:18:38 * oerjan hates it when his intuition suddenly tells him not to add a wisdom.
23:19:03 <oerjan> either that, or my rsi is acting up.
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23:32:00 <\oren\> Should I interfere in the Spanish Civil War?
23:32:50 <\oren\> I'd like to remove a possible ally of Hitler, but this might be risky
23:34:33 <oerjan> well in real history, there were plenty of communists in it, and they still lost.
23:36:46 <quintopia> Sgeo: lol i wonder how many people are actually in the Russell category. it's hard to tell, given that the category is (necessarily) not well-defined
23:39:50 <oerjan> just apply BR's type theory to note that Bertrand and Russell cannot be categories at the first level.
23:45:08 <oerjan> <pikhq> I'm pretty sure "human" is more of a genus than a species, but hey. <-- http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2600/fc02546.htm
23:45:22 <\oren\> I've decided to at least ship the good guys weapons and send a small cadre of volunteers to delay the nationalists from taking madrid
23:47:48 -!- Ender13 has joined.
23:48:08 <\oren\> in the meantime I'm trying to make France like us enough to interfere too
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23:51:45 <int-e> what is that game?
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23:53:41 <\oren\> I'm playing as Stalin, but trying not to kill everyone who looks at me funny
23:54:46 <\oren\> I mean, the real Stalin almost lost Korolev. he sent fucking Korolev, to gulag!
23:55:16 <\oren\> it's a wonder that the USSR ever even had a space program
23:56:53 <\oren\> No, Iim trying to make sure we science the shit out of the Nazis
00:15:13 <zzo38> I have designed this Magic: the Gathering card (with a bit of suggestions to help): {-} Conspiracy ;; Creature spells you cast cost an additional {1} to cast. ;; Whenever you cast a creature spell, you gain 1 life. ;; Whenever a nontoken creature you own dies, target opponent loses 1 life.
00:17:47 <shachaf> That doesn't seem like a very good card.
00:20:20 -!- Melvar has joined.
00:21:50 <zzo38> What if it is added, that it give you a token that you can tap for one mana that is spend only for noncreature spells, and only if you control a creature?
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00:38:44 <\oren\> Who knew that just 3 armored divisions from the USSR, under a relatively green commander, could turn the tide of the Spanish Civil War?
00:40:24 <\oren\> Well, I suppose it helps that the other side has no tanks at all
00:54:59 <oerjan> \oren\: i sense a bright red future
01:05:34 <oerjan> *sigh* asus smart gestures driver has changed its menu so that you _cannot_ disable three finger gestures...
01:06:22 <oerjan> and it's starting to drive me nuts, because 90% of the time a three finger gesture triggers, it's by accident.
01:06:57 <oerjan> (and i don't really need to use the gesture for the final case)
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01:27:07 <zzo38> Is it possible to configure that in a different way (such as editing the configuration file directly)?
01:37:08 <oerjan> i dunno, and i got too close to a panic attack when trying to find out.
01:44:49 <oerjan> i suspect it's in the windows registry. i have failed to search for it.
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01:45:28 <oerjan> also that there's no documentation anywhere in english.
01:45:57 <oerjan> (seriously, would it hurt Asus's bottom line that much to hire a native speaker to writer stuff)
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02:00:49 <alercah> more accurately, I hate the idea that the best way to do unit testing is to hermetically seal off your units from anything that might be interesting
02:03:15 <boily> alercahello. unit testing is painful.
02:04:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
02:05:04 <alercah> also the philosophy that your unit tests should fail independent
02:05:20 <alercah> which is bunk because the results of one test depend on the results of another
02:05:41 <alercah> one of the things that really bugs me is that "randomized testing is bad because it is not reproducible"
02:05:48 <shachaf> oerjan: I considered buying an Asus computer but I decided against it.
02:05:54 <alercah> so instead I test 10 out of 2^32 possible values
02:06:12 <alercah> and if it so happens that my function fails for INT_MAX - 1, the unit tests will never catch it
02:06:13 <hppavilion[1]> I joined the channel before I logged into my accout
02:08:25 <alercah> also the peculiar model of unit testing object-oriented languages that emphasizes boilerplate code
02:08:40 <alercah> since "each test should test one thing"
02:08:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's how people reveal their cloaks. since you don't have one, it doesn't matter.
02:09:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's because the login system requires contacting a different server.
02:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, before I logged into the account on my laptop
02:09:54 <oerjan> unless you happen to be on the same one as nickserv.
02:10:10 <hppavilion[1]> I opened my laptop, but then waited a bit before logging in to read the news
02:10:25 <hppavilion[1]> And boily had already porthelloed me when I did log in
02:11:38 <oerjan> shachaf: it was a spur of the moment thing where i ignored my intuition because my dad offered to buy a new laptop and we were in a shop that had asus on display.
02:12:15 <oerjan> (and he was leaving the next day, and my old laptop was on the brink - it crashed for good the next week)
02:12:50 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps you can contact the manufacturer and apply a one finger gesture hth
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02:32:16 <izabera> can someone explain this? >>+>,[->+>,]<[<[<<]<[.<[<<]<]>>[+>->]<<]
02:32:37 <izabera> this part is easy >>+>,[->+>,]<
02:34:43 <oerjan> ^bf >>+>,[->+>,]<[<[<<]<[.<[<<]<]>>[+>->]<<]!testing
02:35:25 <izabera> when it stores a character it decrements it
02:35:56 <izabera> then finds the first point with a zero and then prints it and i'm lost
02:36:11 <oerjan> ^bf >>+>,[->+>,]<[<[<<]<[.<[<<]<]>>[+>->]<<]!testing<CTCP>
02:38:51 <izabera> and fungot has no timeout?
02:38:52 <fungot> izabera: the function will fnord will try and learn a few other languages that don't exist
02:39:11 <oerjan> izabera: it just doesn't print anything then.
02:39:40 <oerjan> because the main loop gets skipped
02:39:44 <izabera> it should print <no output> or something
02:39:57 <fungot> boily: chording keyboards are ones where you really feel about srfi 33
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02:40:25 <shachaf> we are all stupid bots, are we not?
02:41:40 <oerjan> why do you think you are all stupid bots, are you not?
02:42:24 <oerjan> let's talk about you, not me
02:48:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49656&oldid=49637 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+1956)
02:49:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49657&oldid=49656 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-11)
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04:13:55 <shachaf> How does Leibniz notation work?
04:14:02 <shachaf> What does it mean? Why do the informal mafipulations that people do with it work so well?
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04:16:10 <pikhq> It works because the notion of an "infinitisimal", though not then explained or used in rigorous terms, actually can be defined rigorously. And the manipulations permitted on it function the same as people's informal manipulations do.
04:16:37 <shachaf> Which notion of "infinitesimal" are you using?
04:16:56 <shachaf> Non-standard analysis? Smooth infinitesimal analysis?
04:17:25 <pikhq> Non-standard analysis, as applied to the calculus of differentials and of integrals.
04:17:41 <shachaf> Without the notion of infinitesimal, you can still define a meaning for "dy/dx" (even if you maybe don't define "dy" and "dx" separately). What meaning would you take for it?
04:18:00 <shachaf> In non-standard analysis, "dy/dx" doesn't literally mean an infinitesimal dy divided by an infinitesimal dx. That would be too easy.
04:18:13 <shachaf> It means the standard part of a quotient of infinitesimals, at least.
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04:19:08 <shachaf> Anyway, you can ask three people what "dy/dx" actually means and get five answers.
04:19:17 <zzo38> I have considered "dy" and "dx" can be define separately but they are not infinitesimals
04:19:52 <shachaf> What do you define them as?
04:19:56 <pikhq> My naive interpretation of dy/dx without infinitesimals as a concept, is that it's an opaque symbol meaning "derivative with respect to x".
04:20:28 <shachaf> pikhq: That's what I said.
04:20:37 <shachaf> In particular, y is an expression with a free variable x.
04:20:49 <shachaf> dy/dx is also an expression with a free variable x (but not the same x).
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04:21:32 <shachaf> If D : (R -> R) -> (R -> R) is the differentiation operator, then dy/dx means D(\x.y)(x)
04:21:37 <shachaf> Is that what you're thinking?
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04:22:54 <shachaf> Some people say other things. For example, that y is a function, and dy/dx is a function.
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04:23:34 <zzo38> I do define them as something like "opaque symbols", with certain algebraic properties so that you can make calculations with them.
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04:24:09 <shachaf> That sounds good, can you say more?
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04:25:32 <shachaf> One thing that people do is say: y^2 = x^2; d/dx both sides, so d(y^2)/dx = d(x^2)/dx, so 2y dy/dx = 2x, so dy/dx = x/y
04:25:44 <shachaf> Now y isn't an expression in x at all.
04:25:45 <zzo38> For example d(x^2)=2xdx and so on. Therefore if y=x^2 then dy/dx=2x
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04:27:11 <zzo38> However, the notation d^2y/dx^2 for the second derivative is wrong and it does not actually work. By using the rule for derivative of divisions, you can figure out the correct way (I have done so, and have found another answer in a book, and I found it to be equivalent).
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04:28:46 <zzo38> I figured it out on some paper somewhere but now I forget.
04:28:54 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Today's xkcd is a useful piece of advice <-- i think your timing estimate is a _little_ bit nonlinear.
04:29:31 <zzo38> If you want, you can try to figure it out by yourself.
04:29:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: "today's xkcd" just means "the thing that pops up when you go to xkcd.com"
04:30:03 <zzo38> shachaf: It is d(dx). Without more information you cannot convert it as far as I know.
04:30:03 <hppavilion[1]> And if one is reading the logs, it means whichever one is most recent at the time when you're reading
04:30:14 <pikhq> Clearly it's the function d applied to the variable dx.
04:30:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: you can't poof <-- didn't you see how i made all those people disappear hth
04:31:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i recommend "current" hth
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04:32:08 <shachaf> zzo38: In what context is "dx" defined?
04:32:17 <shachaf> Does it only make sense in the presence of a free variable x?
04:33:47 <zzo38> Well, "x" has to mean something too, and then it can be calculation by the relation and so on.
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04:35:13 <zzo38> For example if you have variables y and x with y=x^2 and so on, then y and x are the variables here, so that is what it means, and since you have this equation you can make up more equations from it like any other mathematics is.
04:35:50 <shachaf> What is the type of d, or of dx?
04:35:57 <shachaf> What manipulations are permitted on it?
04:36:40 <zzo38> I think most common stuff is OK such as addition, multiplication, division, etc
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05:00:38 <shachaf> zzo38: Is there a definition of d I can read anywhere?
05:00:43 <shachaf> Is it some sort of algebraic structure?
05:01:11 <shachaf> Can you make a version that works with functions, instead of expressions?
05:02:27 <shachaf> zzo38: One thing you can say is: y and x are really implicitly expressions in, say, t.
05:02:33 <shachaf> And then dx really means dx/dt
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05:25:13 <zzo38> I don't think that is how it works (unless dt=1)
05:26:33 <shachaf> Yes, of course if you could refer to t directly in this context, then dt would be 1.
05:33:45 <izabera> how many requests per second could a good webserver serve in 1990?
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05:36:05 <shachaf> Were there any web servers in 1990?
05:36:59 <izabera> because i wrote a stupid wrapper that forks off to a shell script and that shell script replies "hello from a server that runs on android" in http
05:37:22 <izabera> and it's running on my tablet and it handles 100 requests in 1.7s
05:39:59 <izabera> turns out forking is a little inefficient
05:40:17 <shachaf> Forking is a strategy that was used for a long time, with CGI scripts.
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05:41:56 <shachaf> Seems that the first web server was developed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT_Computer
05:59:40 <pikhq> Forking is a pretty inefficient way of spawning processes.
05:59:57 <pikhq> That said, the thing that's slow there isn't actually the fork call.
06:00:30 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that your shell is paying some pretty big startup costs.
06:02:06 <shachaf> If you want to use the shell, you gotta shell out the startup costs.
06:02:23 <pikhq> Yeah, but bash's aren't exactly worth it.
06:02:53 <pikhq> No, wait, Android. That'll be toolbox sh, probably.
06:03:03 <pikhq> But it's using Bionic, which is a scow libc.
06:03:20 <pikhq> Friendly advice, never write a libc in C++.
06:03:35 <alercah> friendly advice, never write a libc
06:03:50 <alercah> both the C and C++ standard libraries are scow
06:04:01 * pikhq really wishes musl existed at the time that Android was getting started
06:04:12 <shachaf> a heffalump or musl / is very confusel
06:05:11 <alercah> I once had to work with C++ stdlib locale code
06:06:06 <pikhq> Which was no doubt way too complex because it was designed to account for not-UTF-8 charsets.
06:06:15 <pikhq> Perhaps even *shudder* stateful charsets.
06:10:02 <alercah> it's too complex because it was designed to be extensible in a terrible way
06:10:30 <alercah> and the end result was something totally useless for basically everything
06:10:46 <pikhq> Yeah, the interface itself is too complex and overly general.
06:10:59 <alercah> honestly C++ should deprecate locales & iostreams and replace them with something better
06:11:06 <pikhq> And most implementations then decide to be that general.
06:11:16 <alercah> well they follow the standard
06:11:34 <pikhq> Meanwhile, at least the C locale standard *permits* simple implementations.
06:11:44 <alercah> (one aspect of the mess in C++ iirc also comes from attempts to be compatible with C locales)
06:12:02 <alercah> like the lack of thread-local locale functions
06:12:28 <pikhq> ... In C but not POSIX, and non-POSIX C implementations are: Microsoft Visual C.
06:13:37 <shachaf> I heard Windows has a Linux system call emulation layer now.
06:14:03 <pikhq> And MSVC is basically as much of a joke implementation as IE6's implementation of HTML.
06:14:36 <alercah> pikhq: when did POSIX add those?
06:14:52 <alercah> oh wait, I'm confusing myself
06:14:59 <alercah> yes, POSIX has thread-local ones
06:15:13 <pikhq> Sadly, uselocale was added in POSIX-2008.
06:15:33 <pikhq> Though the various functions that take locale_t are earlier.
06:16:06 <alercah> my notes say posix is missing some
06:16:36 <pikhq> It's possible the notes are just old. POSIX gets new versions every now and then.
06:16:52 <pikhq> Though, some of the implementations (*cough*OS X*cough*) don't care.
06:17:16 <pikhq> Mmkay, that's the latest modulo errata.
06:18:16 <alercah> generally it lacks local_t versions of printing functions
06:18:20 <pikhq> But, with uselocale you *may* correctly implement any locale_t-taking function you feel like.
06:19:05 <pikhq> Though doing it perfectly correctly for a lot of 'em (the ones that are cancellation points) is going to be a bit tricky. (not impossible, just tricky)
06:20:01 <pikhq> Okay, and the ones that are async signal safe, if any of 'em are.
06:20:29 <pikhq> (can't be bothered to look if any of 'em are async signal safe)
06:20:46 <alercah> assuming you don't know the encoding of wchar_t* in an arbitrary locale
06:21:01 <alercah> (wchar_t is stupid too but that's another story)
06:22:23 <zzo38> My own programs just use C locale so we don't need the others
06:24:22 <pikhq> I don't see how that's relevant, but in practice it's of little relevance: good implementations should have __STDC_ISO_10646__, and as such wchar_t values are Unicode codepoints in all locales.
06:25:07 <pikhq> (there are, once again, two kinds of implementations worth caring about: implementations with that, and MSVC)
06:27:50 <zzo38> Best way is ignore that and use C locale; ISO 10646 is no good and the other locales are also no good.
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06:29:29 <alercah> pikhq: you can't implement printfw_l without knowing the encoding
06:29:42 <alercah> or other various conversion functions
06:31:48 <zzo38> What does printfw_l means anyways?
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08:09:34 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfTropes is paradise for me
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10:43:58 <izabera> https://arin.ga/qJJMNf/raw <- this is serving this -> http://95.233.72.203
11:28:53 <izabera> i was looking for source code the 2011 movie with jake gyllenhaal
11:29:04 <izabera> and found this https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3497574/Windows_2000_source_code and this https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4149808/Windows_NT4_source_code
11:34:51 <\oren\> Ok, fuck you hitler. I'm retreating, you can take poland, have fun. But my newest tanks will meet you at the eastern border when you get there
11:35:15 <\oren\> goddamn it why are my tanks not as good as his
11:36:04 <int-e> because Hitler? Didn't you want to outtech him?
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11:38:32 <\oren\> int-e: yeah, but I focused my efforts on planes, but poland won't let me rebase my bombers
11:39:47 <\oren\> int-e: I have better tanks but they're only being manufactured now, my old tank divisions are stuck with old tanks
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11:56:41 <izabera> two of my benchmarks trigger O(n^2) behaviour for microsoft's qsort
12:03:36 <int-e> is that dag adversary strong enough to ensure that Theta(n log(n)) comparisons are required for any comparison based sorting algorithm?
12:06:07 <int-e> Dang I'm mixing up the big O's, I mean Omega.
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13:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49658&oldid=49657 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-3410)
13:27:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49659&oldid=49658 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+5)
13:28:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49660&oldid=49659 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-1)
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14:20:28 <HackEgo> mark//A mark of one's destiny singled out alone, fulfilled.
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14:35:39 <\oren\> Ok, seriously, this time I'm playing as Iran. How did I end up at war with Finland!?
14:36:58 <FireFly> Some Paradox game or something?
14:37:05 <Jafet> is this like europa universalis where iran ends up next to finland?
14:37:19 <int-e> \oren\: The enemy of your enemy? Alliances are tricky.
14:38:18 <int-e> To my mind it's not more ridiculous as Japan becoming an ally of Germany.
14:38:42 <\oren\> I'm a communist Iran, so I guess because USSR declared war on finland?
14:39:28 <\oren\> Luckily I already annexed iraq
14:39:55 <int-e> And there's no Israel.
14:40:08 <\oren\> Right, not at this point in history.
14:40:18 <int-e> That should simplify matters quite a bit... well... not really.
14:40:39 <\oren\> I am, however, researching nukes
14:40:56 <\oren\> What if iran was cummunist, and got nukes by 1944?
14:45:46 <int-e> Where's Saudi Arabia in all this?
14:46:17 <\oren\> Hey, I wonder if I can grab some of Saudi's territory if I threaten to nuke Riyadh?
14:47:07 <\oren\> right now they don't seem to be doing much, they don't even seem to have much forces at their border with me
14:48:57 <\oren\> Turkey on the other hand has nine infrantry divisions looking over their border asking for me to send them somthing to shoot at
14:50:32 <\oren\> japan just joined the axis
14:54:35 <alercah> \oren\: indeed, what are you playing?
14:54:47 <\oren\> alercah: Hearts of Iron 4
14:55:19 <\oren\> Well, it looks like Syria is controlled by vichy france, so when the real warr breks out,I'll grab that
14:55:28 <lambdabot> LOWI 281320Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW070 FEW070TCU 31/16 Q1017 NOSIG
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15:10:51 <\oren\> (With a little help from my dear russian friends)
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16:01:28 <\oren\> Wait, what's going on here?! Why isn't Germany breaking the ribbentrop pact?
16:16:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
16:17:14 <wob_jonas> \oren\: turns out that was you breaking the pact all along, when you traveled back in time
16:22:13 <\oren\> screw it then I'm invading the Saudis
16:30:13 <\oren\> yah it looks like somehow I ended up in a world where stalin and hilter get along fine
16:36:09 <\oren\> Workers of Saudi Arabia, your salvation from your despot is nigh
16:37:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49661&oldid=49660 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+22)
16:38:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49662&oldid=49661 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-5)
16:39:08 <\oren\> The british raj has capitulated to Japan
16:39:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49663&oldid=49662 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+22)
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16:41:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49664&oldid=49663 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+44)
16:41:14 <\oren\> so long story short I'm playing as Iran, and now I have a land border with Japan
16:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49665&oldid=49664 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-2)
16:43:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49666&oldid=49665 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+1)
16:45:45 <\oren\> Holy crap it looks like the USSR is about to break the pact
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17:54:59 <\oren\> Ok, somehow, in 1943, finally the allies and comintern united against the axis
17:55:57 <\oren\> And now there are tons of american trops landing in iranian-contrlled syria in onrder to invade egypt
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19:15:26 <zzo38> How much do you think should be this effect of Magic: the Gathering card? "Fateseal 4, and then target opponent draws a card."
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20:41:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49667&oldid=49666 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+261)
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21:13:40 <hppavilion[1]> They have 12 color-sensing cells, plus 4 other non-color sensors (e.g. polarization) in their eyes
21:13:52 <hppavilion[1]> So they can see things that are transparent, and yet still see what's behind them
21:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> My god, if transhumanism can get me some of the stuff that other animals have, I'm in
21:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> (and probably some cephalopod eyes while I'm at it)
21:35:17 <hppavilion[1]> When you feel pain on your arm, you feel the pain coming from where the injured part of your arm /is/, rather than just from the abstract location of "your arm", which could be anywhere
21:48:07 <shachaf> FireFly: why are you in #-blah and not in #-offtopic
21:48:31 <FireFly> why should I be in -offtopic
21:49:05 <shachaf> why should you be in -blah
21:49:41 <FireFly> I don't know, I was in -blah before
21:49:45 <FireFly> was there drama at some point?
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21:56:07 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
21:56:11 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
21:56:22 <int-e> how's lambdabot doing in the timeout department these days?
21:56:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49668&oldid=49667 * Rjhunjhunwala * (-61)
22:07:55 <int-e> Oh Tromp gave a talk at the US Go Congress (Computer Go session).
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22:08:41 <lambdabot> LOWI 282050Z VRB08KT 9999 SCT050TCU BKN120 22/13 Q1021 NOSIG
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22:34:15 <zzo38> You are not required to pay to learn Linux; you only have to pay if those are the classes you are entering. Otherwise you can learn in different way you don't have to pay.
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22:38:33 <hppavilion[1]> If you're paying to learn linux, you probably aren't really in on the spirit of the thing
22:38:44 <hppavilion[1]> Question: After the assassination of Lincoln, what happened to the play?
22:41:08 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i don't see how this is weirder than paying to learn windows
22:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Because Linux is Linux and it's all 'bout dat foss
22:41:32 <myname> you don't learn about linux by reading the source code, usually
22:41:37 <zzo38> I think it is OK for them to charge the money if they want to, such as if they are selling a book or they have a classroom.
22:41:41 <myname> so, no difference there
22:41:56 <zzo38> You are not required to pay them if you can learn in other ways.
22:42:02 <myname> people sold CDs with openoffice and firefox on them on ebay
22:42:07 <myname> that's what i call strange
22:42:12 <hppavilion[1]> Like, at the very least, it would be weird to use theirs because there is almost certainly a free one available
22:42:34 <zzo38> Yes, I do think that is strange. Selling such CDs at a physical store does make some more sense though
22:43:00 <myname> i don't think so, because of firefox
22:43:18 <myname> who the hell would need a brlwser if he doesnjt have access to the internet
22:43:32 <zzo38> To view local HTML documents?
22:43:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I mean, you could argue it's for people who don't have a browser on their computer yet and need to install it by disk
22:44:56 <zzo38> Even if you do have internet on your computer but not the web browser software, if you want to download one, you could still use other software such as wget or ftp (but that won't work if you don't have that software either).
22:47:50 <zzo38> So, a disk still helps.
22:48:03 <zzo38> (Of course on Ebay it won't help so much, I suppose)
22:49:28 <hppavilion[1]> In Hallelujah (the one that everybody covers), the line "it goes like this, the fourth, the fifth, the minor fall, and the major lift" is played exactly like that (in C Major, at least)
22:50:08 <myname> hppavilion[1]: but tbh, maybe microsoft is not a good comparison. how about suse selling support for linux?
22:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> Either you are all-in gung-ho on Linux and Free Software, or you don't use Linux
22:51:14 <myname> hownso, they sell a service that people demand
22:51:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: The people demanding it shouldn't be using linux
22:51:32 <myname> i don't really care about foss
22:51:53 <myname> i use linux because anything else just plain sucks for coding
22:52:14 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think those thing is not a valid excuse
22:54:41 <myname> "you should not use linux if you want a reliable server system" doesn't make sense
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22:56:59 <zzo38> Possibly BSD is better for a reliable server system, but I don't know. Also, some Linux distributions may be better to make reliable server system than others are. But this Linux does work much better than Windows, at least.
23:21:46 <hppavilion[1]> I just keep getting emails from Pastebin with deals on paying to learn Linux
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23:34:04 <lambdabot> CYUL 282200Z 20014KT 15SM FEW035TCU FEW090 BKN150 BKN240 27/21 A2998 RMK TCU1AC2AC3CI2 TCU TR ACC ASOCTD SLP155 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
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00:02:48 <oerjan> (this is a repetition from previous time when you DIDN'T NOTICE hth)
00:03:28 <oerjan> darn i shouldn't have cheated so fast, i probably could have guessed it was baltic with some thought.
00:03:51 <boily> I have absolutely no fungotting idea where nofrily could be coming where from.
00:04:02 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
00:04:58 <hppavilion[1]> (being the product of the 69th and 420th primes, though I may be doing something wrong as of yet)
00:05:30 <boily> oerjan: maybe some random language spoken in Siberia?
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00:05:55 <oerjan> boily: wrong continent hth
00:06:11 <oerjan> also, it's transliterated, i guess
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00:06:58 <hppavilion[1]> If you wish to specifically refer to 69 followed by 420, you use 2953336069, and for 420 followed by 69 you use 354319109
00:07:42 <boily> hppavilion[1]: those are big numbers. you should do an MTF then RLE to compress them.
00:08:04 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Never heard of MTF, or at least I can't think of it
00:08:34 <oerjan> (that's still the same continent afaiac hth
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00:10:24 <boily> the "-fr-" bit is throwing me for a loop...
00:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> Damn, are there any numbers for drugs other than pot?
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00:13:47 <boily> hppavilion[1]: there is the 2C family, but it's alphanumeric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C_(psychedelics)
00:15:56 <oerjan> boily: on checking, it seems to be a dead language. it's the last descendant of one you might consider classical.
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00:17:41 <oerjan> ...you're still in asia despite my best efforts to tell you that's wrong :P
00:20:56 <oerjan> (do we know any words from those? i don't know.)
00:21:37 <oerjan> next hint: although dead, it's still used by some
00:21:55 <boily> Old Church Slavonic?
00:22:03 <oerjan> (as i implied, i didn't actually know it was dead until right now)
00:22:22 <boily> I'm trying to remember "classical" languages.
00:22:43 <oerjan> well "classical". it depends on your definition i guess.
00:23:17 <boily> I liberally classicaly classify languages usually...
00:24:21 <oerjan> no, no. more classical than that, i think.
00:25:19 <oerjan> next hint: you can blame the muslims for it dying.
00:25:23 <pikhq> Latin and lesser Latin?
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00:26:37 <boily> oh fungot. two riddhelloes at the same time.
00:26:57 <oerjan> i think pikhq's one isn't too hard.
00:27:40 <boily> that was a good one.
00:28:13 <boily> pikhq: Portuguese?
00:28:41 * oerjan guessed pikhq's correctly.
00:28:50 <pikhq> I was doing weirdo Esperanto, personally.
00:29:44 <pikhq> oerjan: Coptic is only mostly dead -- it's still used liturgically.
00:29:46 <boily> I forgot most of Esperanto's suffixes. are -n adverbs?
00:30:48 <pikhq> -n is the accusative suffix.
00:31:36 <pikhq> And apparently the accusative is used in excalamtions, such as "Saluton".
00:31:46 * oerjan learns that chebyshev's first name, pafnuty, is originally coptic.
00:32:43 <oerjan> pikhq: i'm pretty sure "dead" does not usually exclude that for languages.
00:33:21 <pikhq> Yeah... Well, it depends.
00:33:35 <pikhq> Coptic is as "dead" as Latin is, and some might call Latin a dead language.
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00:34:59 * oerjan also learns that this is one of the cases where -ev is pronounced -of.
00:35:37 <boily> Latin is post-re-de-undead.
00:37:16 <oerjan> boily: btw iirc aramaic isn't quite dead, although it's not doing well in the current war zone down there.
00:37:36 <shachaf> they come in ones and twosles, but if they so choozles, before your eyes you'll see hem multiply
00:38:25 <oerjan> i think shachaf thinks he's found my secret weakness or something.
00:38:55 <oerjan> either that, or he's got it on his brain himself.
00:39:14 * boily is utterly confused by the sudden turn in conversation
00:39:15 <shachaf> a bit of the former maybe, but one can only expect diminishing returns there
00:39:45 <pikhq> Yeah, Aramaic is classed as endangered, but not extinct.
00:40:37 <oerjan> wait, the talmud is mostly in aramaic?
00:41:02 <oerjan> boily: itym confusel hth
00:41:56 <oerjan> boily: unconfusel hth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLnADKgurvc
00:43:38 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes. It's worth remembering that the Talmud is a large body of writing from various rabbis written post-70CE.
00:46:23 <oerjan> shachaf: i think i sniped myself with that link hth
00:47:17 <shachaf> I like the internal rhyme in "because they guzzle up the things you prize"
00:47:35 <shachaf> Does that sort of thing have a name? Are there other instances of it?
00:47:49 <boily> oerjan: I am... partially unconfuselled?
00:48:39 <oerjan> shachaf: half rhymes are a thing.
00:49:48 <pikhq> shachaf: That would probably be alliteration, not rhyme.
00:50:38 <shachaf> "because" and "guz" seem to rhyme.
00:50:50 <pikhq> That's a semi-rhyme.
00:51:11 <pikhq> (that's the actual term for it)
00:51:28 <shachaf> But people make too much of it.
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01:20:39 <HackEgo> Your mysterious pronounced zombie oeverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:22:39 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s/Crocker/&, and his secret weakness is heffalumps and woozles./
01:22:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious pronounced zombie oeverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker, and his secret weakness is heffalumps and woozles
01:22:55 <HackEgo> Your mysterious pronounced zombie oeverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker, and his secret weakness is heffalumps and woozles.. He sometimes
01:23:07 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:25:44 <boily> `relcome Robdgreat
01:25:45 <HackEgo> Robdgreat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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01:26:22 <oerjan> Robdgreat: long time no see
01:26:25 <boily> `` sed -i 's/oeverlord/œverlord/' wisdom/oerjan
01:26:29 <shachaf> boily: please fix up the oerjan wisdom entry twh
01:26:39 <boily> shachaf: what were you aiming for?
01:26:42 <HackEgo> [U+0153 LATIN SMALL LIGATURE OE]
01:27:13 <boily> Robdgreat: allo. French?
01:28:07 <boily> `` sed -i 's/\.\././' wisdom/oerjan
01:28:26 <boily> oerjan: what do you "He sometimes"?
01:28:52 <oerjan> boily: um you seem to be looking at the pre-reverted version
01:28:55 <HackEgo> Your mysterious pronounced zombie œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:29:37 <boily> all is fine now then.
01:30:02 <oerjan> i think shachaf perceived some crampiness.
01:30:25 <shachaf> i think oerjan perceived some crankiness
01:34:03 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
01:37:10 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan/s/pronounced zombie/reanimate/
01:37:16 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s/pronounced zombie/reanimate/
01:37:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious reanimate œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
01:37:47 <oerjan> word merging through puns
01:40:24 <HackEgo> Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is.
01:40:26 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop.
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01:58:00 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
02:00:49 <Robdgreat> is this all that happens in here anymore?
02:01:42 <oerjan> nah, sometimes people discuss Magic the Gathering
02:07:23 <oerjan> i think the more energetic newbies aren't in at the moment.
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02:13:51 <pikhq> On occasion esolangs also get talked about.
02:14:06 <pikhq> While we're often off topic, we all *are* genuinely interested in them.
02:14:35 <pikhq> Also, this will probably please you: fungot is written in Befunge.
02:14:53 * pikhq mutters, fungot is dead
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02:26:21 <hppavilion[1]> "Douchey Douches Douche Douchily" -- Ernest Hemingway, July 3, 1961
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02:36:10 <Phantom__Hoover> keep it up though, if it wasn't for you nobody would ever talk about esolangs
02:44:41 <oerjan> . o O ( i didn't know Ernest Hemingway made esolangs )
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03:08:02 <\oren\> HA! The Imperial Japanese invaded my Iranian Communist Authority through India, but I encircled them and wiped out 50 divisions at once
03:09:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49669&oldid=49668 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+173)
03:09:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49670&oldid=49669 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+17)
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03:13:29 <\oren\> Hey, the british are here, to retake the Raj through Kuwait
03:16:34 <\oren\> Oh, look! I now own Jordan, Syria, and Israel
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03:24:38 <\oren\> Advancing into the Sinai
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03:58:36 <hppavilion[1]> The concept of choosing one's sexual orientation is mathematically absurd
03:59:13 <hppavilion[1]> Simple game theory tells us that, assuming your choice of orientation does not affect anyone else's, the optimal strategy is /clearly/ to choose bisexuality
04:00:20 <zzo38> Well, I want to choose asexuality.
04:00:27 <pikhq> Except that people react poorly to it, and as such one should be heterosexual.
04:00:31 <hppavilion[1]> And even if it does affect others' choices, unless it specifically affects your contemporaries to choose straight or asexual, you still benefit
04:01:09 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: But no one can tell your orientation unless they are informed- sex as a game has imperfect information
04:02:17 <pikhq> *If* you would not be at risk of significant discrimination for being not-heterosexual, that would be the case.
04:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> And since the best move for /everyone/ is to choose bisexuality (as, assuming everyone plays optimally, it doubles your dating pool, and under no circumstances does your dating pool decrease), there would be no reason to discriminate against bisexuals because most other people are bisexual too
04:03:03 <pikhq> If people as a whole were game theoretically optimal, yes.
04:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yes, and people tend to be fairly close to optimal for obvious choices such as this
04:04:11 <pikhq> And yet, it's not the case.
04:04:26 <pikhq> Nor would it make any sense for it to be the case from an evolutionary standpoint.
04:04:34 <hppavilion[1]> "do you want $10 or $20, both given to you right now with no differences other than amount?"
04:04:35 <pikhq> (mind, that is not a standpoint many people take!)
04:06:03 <pikhq> I think some amount of the *idea* that one chooses one's sexual orientation comes from certain individuals who are homosexual or bisexual and feel that it's wrong, and then force themselves into heterosexual acts and then loudly proclaim that they chose to be straight.
04:06:49 <pikhq> But, regardless. I'm quite certain it's the case hardly anyone had a time they *decided* to be heterosexual, jusst a time they realized it.
04:07:00 <hppavilion[1]> But if I could choose, I definitely 100% would've chosen to be bi
04:07:24 <pikhq> You've never heard people say they chose to be heterosexual?
04:07:33 <pikhq> You do not listen to many religious fundamentalists then.
04:07:38 <pikhq> This is probably for the best.
04:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> (and, keep in mind, gays probably have better sex than straight people- sex is never a game with perfect information, but the information is a /lot/ better when you've both had a penis (or vagina) for your entire life)
04:08:36 <pikhq> *cough* there exist trans people *cough*
04:09:08 <zzo38> I think there is still decision what you want though, such as only opposite or don't sex (therefore, I want don't sex).
04:09:18 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: For the purposes of analysis, we assume that trans people are the gender they identify as- trans men are just men, trans women are just women
04:09:31 <zzo38> (Or something more strange than sexual orientation, in some cases, possibly???)
04:09:48 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: A reasonable analysis. This does, however, leave some men with vaginas and some women with phallusses.
04:10:01 <pikhq> (though, yes, they are definitely in the minority)
04:10:35 <pikhq> zzo38: To some extent, yes, conscious choices can impact your desires and behaviors.
04:10:42 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Yes, asexual is nice too because it decreases distractions and prevents sexual frustration (I assume; I've always just assumed asexuals don't have any form of frustration from never having sex, that they just don't feel any inclination to)
04:11:01 <pikhq> As it turns out, human brains are complex and this includes human brains' sexual behavior.
04:11:31 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I suppose that there are trans women who have not undergone surgery... I think it's the majority of trans people, actually.
04:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> I guess we just drop them from the equation for now?
04:11:53 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: It is the majority of trans women, yes.
04:12:07 <hppavilion[1]> Or, at least, trans people are negligible as they make up <1% of the population
04:12:24 <hppavilion[1]> And I think they still benefit from choosing to be bi, it's just that straight sex is better for them
04:12:45 <hppavilion[1]> (The only game-sex with perfect information is, of course, masturbation)
04:13:23 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Modulo the fact that trans people's sexual responses can be quite different from a cis person's, even with the same genitalia in both cases.
04:13:28 <pikhq> Because psychology.
04:13:56 <pikhq> Hormones can also be relevant.
04:14:45 <pikhq> The general point that there can be factors in sexual orientation that would influence your decision making, resulting in *very* different choices if it were in fact a choice, is quite valid.
04:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> But since people can't know your orientation unless they obtain information- which in theory should be concealable- you can evade most of those issues by being bi but being a little more discreet about gay sex
04:16:00 <hppavilion[1]> (a bi person having sex with someone of the same gender is still considered "gay sex", right?)
04:16:05 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: And with gay people being more discreet about the straight sex.
04:16:17 <pikhq> I say so, at least.
04:16:25 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yes, but gays at least tend to be more accepting
04:16:39 <pikhq> Oddly enough there can be serious biphobia in some parts of the gay community.
04:16:54 <pikhq> Mostly from people who assert that you're not bi, you're just in the closet.
04:17:11 <hppavilion[1]> My dad's boyfriend is a gay man that is homophobic, but only towards lesbians...
04:19:57 <pikhq> Sounds confusing but not unheard of.
04:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> ...what the fuck is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_based_on_hair_texture
04:23:03 <hppavilion[1]> It looks like someone didn't get a job, decided it was because they had curly hair, ranted about it, and made it into a wikipedia page
04:23:37 <pikhq> Ah. I will say, the phenomenon discussed there *is* a real thing. But it's kinda subtle, and is really more a particular manifestation of racism than anything else.
04:23:45 <pikhq> ... And this article is crap at discussing it.
04:25:09 <pikhq> My guess is some undergrad African-American studies student realized there wasn't a Wikipedia article about it and turned a class assignment into it.
04:28:27 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: A bad class assignment at that, but they probably got an A
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04:34:53 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: How exactly does the idea of "ablism" work?
04:38:20 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: "ableism" is literally discrimination against those with disabilities.
04:39:34 <pikhq> It goes broader than simply failing to account for accessibility.
04:40:03 <hppavilion[1]> Even if the job likely won't involve a lot of walking, someone with working legs is probably a better hire than someone who's paraplegic
04:40:09 <pikhq> You would be surprised how often e.g. a deaf person is treated as a non-person.
04:46:53 <pikhq> Remember, compulsory sterilization has happened as late as *2010*.
04:48:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:31.184.238.61]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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05:52:16 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, is it possible to change what my IP directs to in a geoip database?
05:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> Because I want the internet to think I live in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaace
05:55:45 <Jafet> no, there isn't: http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-kansas-farm/
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11:38:06 <HackEgo> but//But is a Trintercal operator.
12:28:11 <b_jonas> So in fantasy fiction, nobility ranks come in two suits: the Good ranks are named prince, duke, earl, whereas the Evil ranks are named king, count, baron.
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12:35:22 <HackEgo> orin//orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
12:36:04 <FreeFull> b_jonas: In which fantasy fiction?
12:36:40 <FreeFull> There definitely are good kings in some fantasy books
12:43:45 <fizzie> Sometimes there are evil princes that murder good kings.
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12:46:18 <FreeFull> Lord of the Rings had both good and bad kings
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12:50:42 <fizzie> I assume you mean the entire verse, not just the books with that title.
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13:11:47 <fizzie> Then I can't think of very many evil kings. I don't think Sauron counts as a king, Denethor certainly doesn't, and Théoden wasn't really "evil" even before getting better.
13:20:55 <fizzie> In retrospect, I guess the Witch-King of Angmar counts, though.
13:21:40 <FreeFull> fizzie: How about the Witch-king of Angmar?
13:22:05 <fizzie> That's what I *just* said.
13:22:14 <FreeFull> Oh, I didn't read that line before I wrote mine
13:24:16 <b_jonas> Yeah, doesn't work too well for the Lord of the Ring, which has elf Lords/Ladies and human ruling stewards instead of elf kings/queens. King Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor could count as an Evil king thouhg.
13:26:06 <b_jonas> FreeFull: the arch-example (which might have popularized this a bit) is Dune, which plays duke Leto Atreides against baron Vladimir Harkonnen.
13:27:13 <b_jonas> Tvtrope's take on the nobility titles is (TVTROPES WARNING) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AristocratsAreEvil
13:32:08 <b_jonas> Note though that Galadriel considered turning from an ordinary elf Lady to a beautiful and terrible Queen.
13:33:01 <fizzie> I'm not sure what determines the kingliness/queenliness of elves, anyway. Thingol was the king of Doriath and Thranduil the king of the woodland elves, but Celeborn, Galadriel and Elrond are all nondescript Lords and Ladies of their places.
13:33:23 <fizzie> Thingol and Thranduil weren't all that evil, though AIUI the latter was a bit of a dick.
13:36:58 <fizzie> And Ingwë, Fingon and Olwë were somehow the kings of Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri, respectively. So it doesn't really seem to depend on having a proper sort of kingdom to run.
13:39:27 <FreeFull> Maybe some elves were like "Do we want to have a monarchy" and some said "Sure", and the others "Nah"
13:40:32 <fizzie> Finland was supposed to have a king once, but that never went anywhere -- now we just read news about the Swedish royalty instead.
13:40:54 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Finland_(1918)
13:41:48 <FreeFull> Poland hasn't had a monarchy in a while now
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13:43:46 <FreeFull> The last monarch stopped ruling in 1815
13:44:03 <FreeFull> And that was just a Duke, not a King
13:44:49 <FreeFull> Because of the Third Partition of Poland
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14:06:24 <zemhill__> kaoD.test: points -25.19, score 12.50, rank 24/47
14:08:05 <zemhill__> kaoD.test: points -30.76, score 6.56, rank 47/47 (-23)
14:08:26 <zemhill__> kaoD.test: points -25.19, score 10.71, rank 45/47 (+2)
14:16:15 <b_jonas> `bardsworthlist http://www.bardsworth.com/?comic=tree-percussions
14:16:20 <HackEgo> bardsworthlist http://www.bardsworth.com/?comic=tree-percussions: b_jonas
14:21:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Churro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49671&oldid=43972 * Martin Ender * (+65) add categories
14:36:21 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions
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15:52:02 <b_jonas> `learn The 4rn4 has two false goals.
15:52:04 <HackEgo> Learned '4rn4': The 4rn4 has two false goals.
15:52:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unlearn: not found
15:52:30 <b_jonas> `learn The 4RN4 has two false goals.
15:52:32 <HackEgo> Learned '4rn4': The 4RN4 has two false goals.
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16:13:23 <fizzie> You can just `learn without `forgetting, and then it'll relearn.
16:16:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I was just sort of stupid there
16:16:21 <b_jonas> I thought it would have to use a different filename for 4RN4, but obviously no
16:27:21 <\oren\> Hmm, I'm looking at the skin color emojis in samsung's new font
16:27:29 <\oren\> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrBBDfbWYAA5z93.jpg
16:28:23 <\oren\> It's interesting that the default is brown haired european, 1-2 is pale asian, and 3 appears to be gyaru.
16:35:24 <\oren\> Also, there's a lot of drama apparently because the new iOS font shows 🔫 as a water gun instead of a real gun.
16:38:03 <\oren\> Actually, having skin tone 3 be gyaru helps a lot because we can use [Emoji Modifier Fitzpatrick Type-3][Man] as Trump.
16:40:11 <\oren\> There's a haircut emoji but it's a pity there's no "bad haircut" emoji
16:43:26 <fizzie> I heard of the water gun thing.
16:45:34 <fizzie> I got the impression the main concern was that you think you're sending fun water gun pictures and your friends think you're pointing a real gun at them.
16:47:16 <Jafet> there is already a fun discrepancy with REMINDER RIBBON
16:52:27 <\oren\> I have suggested that unicode encode a water gun emoji in the next round
16:55:31 <\oren\> Jafet: oh, right, some are pink and some are yellow iirc
16:56:57 <\oren\> I have no idea what yellow ribbon means however
17:01:53 <gamemanj> one day someone will make a "create a face app", and it won't have any face rendering code
17:02:01 <gamemanj> It'll just call the text renderer
17:03:52 <gamemanj> text renderers are becoming complicated enough that you could get away with doing that nowadays
17:04:08 <gamemanj> you'd just need a very good font
17:06:14 <myname> i am confused by thw last row
17:06:22 <myname> why are there 6 fingers?
17:08:13 <\oren\> myname: OH GOD WHAT I CANT WHY DID YOU TELL ME
17:09:37 <gamemanj> why are there so many emoji characters, though...
17:10:31 <\oren\> gamemanj: nowadays if more than one cell phone maker has it, they generally will encode it
17:11:39 <\oren\> originally, it was because multiple Japanese cellphone makers had filled in the gaps in Shift-JIS with emoji.
17:11:40 <APic> lambdabot: !help
17:12:17 <APic> lambdabot: Please leave „oerjan“ a Message stating „Thank You very much Dude, that was a quite helpful Message indeed.“
17:12:32 <APic> Can someone instruct me to achieve that, please?
17:12:33 <Jafet> the unicode consortium aims to encode all writing systems used in human communication
17:12:55 <myname> you @tell user message
17:13:00 <APic> @tell oerjan Thank You very much Dude, that was a quite helpful Message indeed!
17:13:15 <b_jonas> I would like to note that Signwriting is now encoded as unicode, and it needs horribly complicated text shaping algorithms to actually render, because you have to combine lots of modifiers to get a glyph, and there's way too many possibilities to pre-render. It's among the hardest to render scripts encoded in unicode.
17:14:43 <\oren\> I wor one intend only to add emoji once the terminal software makers decide how to render them
17:15:12 <gamemanj> Terminal software makers have no idea. I mean, in theory you could treat them as 16x16 charcells, but then there's the combining chars and modifiers.
17:15:16 <b_jonas> I don't know why they even chose to encode it as characters, rather than a domain-specific non-character-based language like five-staff musical notation or 2d maths notation.
17:15:56 <gamemanj> Terminals and emoji just don't work
17:16:01 <\oren\> I mean, right now on most terminals, ☁️ is a half-width character, which doesn't work
17:16:15 <Jafet> presumably you can now add combining marks to hand signs
17:16:24 <gamemanj> b_jonas: Not really, but it's "against the goal of Unicode" not to encode everything
17:16:35 <gamemanj> I bet there is a way to encode five-staff musical notation in Unicode
17:16:38 <\oren\> But the newest version of unicode made emoji fullwidth.
17:17:06 <b_jonas> gamemanj: I don't think that's how it works. They only want to encode characters, not formatting.
17:17:22 <\oren\> But I need to wait for terminal software to catch up
17:17:38 <APic> Yah, Things need Time to evolve.
17:17:45 <\oren\> (and, presumably, editors and such)
17:18:31 * APic switched back from „mosh“ to „ssh“ because my „glibc“ cannot correctly parse „😸“ yet.
17:18:54 <\oren\> Also, I don't intend to ever have colors in my font
17:19:03 <APic> With good old SSH i only see a Rectangle, but under „mosh“, i see just nothing at all, a blank Space, which is much worse for me.
17:19:34 <APic> (Term: rxvt-unicode, for the Record)
17:19:36 <\oren\> I'm using this through two tmuxes and ssh, and I see a fullwidth cat
17:19:47 <APic> That is nice. ☺
17:19:49 <\oren\> but the cat is covering up the und quote
17:20:00 <gamemanj> b_jonas: They do encode formatting already, in a way.
17:20:01 <APic> That is not that good.
17:20:32 <gamemanj> b_jonas: Also RTL/LTR overrides
17:20:38 <\oren\> gamemanj: there are a lot of different space and endline variants
17:21:03 <gamemanj> Just goes to show that they were encoding formatting from the start
17:21:08 <b_jonas> I mean, look at the text we have in like our sacred books, say the complete works of Arany János or some other literature. Apart from two handfuls of non-ascii characters like áéíóöőúüűAÉÍÓÖŐÚÜŰ–…„”»« and fixed with space which I still don't know if it has a unicode encoding, it uses italic. A lot of italic. Plus a couple of levels of indentation sometimes. The italic isn't supposed to be encoded as characters, and usually is
17:21:19 <b_jonas> \ Plus a couple of levels of indentation sometimes. The italic isn't supposed to be encoded as characters, and usually isn't.
17:22:21 <\oren\> Above, if you're using my font, you'll see that I compromized by putting in small abbreiations for what kind of space it is
17:22:52 <gamemanj> and if you aren't, you have no idea!
17:23:08 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
17:23:23 <\oren\> Under, "General Punctuation"
17:23:52 <b_jonas> So it's completely normal that text contains formatting stuff that isn't characters, like at least italic and headings (chapter titles) and block quotes and the occasional centered row of stars separator, and possibly also line breaks and paragraph breaks and multiple levels of indents, although the latter ones are easy to represent as characters.
17:24:36 <b_jonas> \oren\: right, that's the opposite choice as I made in my font. in my font, space characters and the nul character are the only ones that do have a glyph but it isn't distinguishable from ordinary ascii stuff.
17:24:56 <\oren\> Italic exists in unicode for latin letters
17:25:22 <\oren\> But it's not supposed to be used for anything except math
17:25:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: isn't that supposed to be for _math_ italic variables, as opposed to italicized text?
17:26:07 <b_jonas> That would usually look wrong for text, and might not have all the necessary characters (you'll need an italicized hyphen at least, which maths doesn't use).
17:26:09 <\oren\> Yeah, but I don't recognize their authority to set rules
17:26:31 <b_jonas> Hmm, now I wonder which punctuations ever appear italicized in Arany János poems.
17:26:49 <b_jonas> \oren\: I might not recognize unicode's authority, but math italics and text italics are distinct things to me.
17:26:54 <\oren\> So I designed my font in such a way that italics will look ok as running text
17:27:39 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you have like a full set of italicized common punctuation marks, for italicized text? possibly in a separate font?
17:27:40 <\oren\> as will the cursive/script latin
17:27:47 <APic> If Unicode already has „Yellow Heart: 💛“, why should not it have „Yellow Letter A“, or „Yellow Letter π“, also?
17:28:09 <\oren\> Yeah I'm not doing colors.
17:28:27 <\oren\> in terminals we have a better way of doing colors
17:30:07 <\oren\> wait why does that look wrong
17:32:17 <\oren\> actually what happens if I do ☁️ thsi
17:32:35 <\oren\> stupid emoji, i wanted a green cloud
17:33:22 <\oren\> the non-emoji cloud works
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17:58:17 <zzo38> Unicode is 900% stupid.
17:59:51 <zzo38> I do design UTCE deliberately omitting complex scripts and stuff that is not easily rendered in terminals, since it is designed mainly for terminals anyways (not for typesetting). (For typesetting, a system like TeX and METAFONT, perhaps a bit more extended, would help more.)
18:02:40 <APic> zzo38: It is what has evolved naturally. Nature as a Whole is also way > 100% stupid.
18:04:14 <gamemanj> Stupid, dumb, and yet we're talking here...
18:06:45 <gamemanj> TBH, I consider Unicode less stupid than the ways to encode it
18:07:09 <gamemanj> TBH, if it wasn't for UTF-16, we might have been able to just use bitfields instead of combining char madness
18:07:25 <gamemanj> but this is the way it played out
18:08:06 <zzo38> Do you like my UTCE design?
18:08:40 <gamemanj> Can't find it. Is there a link?
18:08:51 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:09:00 <zzo38> (Taking advantage of UTCE fonts is still possible even if you are running programs that use ISO 2022 instead.)
18:09:21 -!- Jafet has joined.
18:09:27 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce
18:10:04 <gamemanj> I already see an issue with this.
18:10:15 <gamemanj> There's a reason UTF-8 avoids the 0x00 to 0x7F area...
18:10:36 <gamemanj> Things like C compilers tend to treat the input as ASCII,
18:11:20 <zzo38> Yes, I do know that things. And, normally you still would treat input as ASCII. I try to make the compromise.
18:12:09 <gamemanj> Yes, but it looks like, say, \x80\x20 would be valid.
18:12:35 <\oren\> UTF-8 would be better if all multibyte characters were the same length
18:12:38 <zzo38> (The codes less than 0x80 that are used are those which are unlikely to cause problems with ASCII parsers and with text strings that don't use other encodings.)
18:12:51 <zzo38> gamemanj: It isn't valid.
18:13:28 <gamemanj> issue is that "unlikely" is an odd thing
18:13:51 <zzo38> (How it will be interpreted is implementation dependent. My suggestion is to display a single-width error indicator followed by a space.)
18:13:57 <\oren\> like it could be 03xx,02xx,02xx alawys
18:14:59 <gamemanj> \oren\: I actually think UTF-8 is fine as it was, before they banned anything that wouldn't work in UTF-16.
18:15:39 <zzo38> I think UTF-8 is fine, although Unicode is not fine.
18:16:07 <\oren\> gamemanj: I came up with an encoding that uses the "infernal planes" characters to encode common ansi sequences smaller
18:16:20 <gamemanj> zzo38: Well, Unicode's a mess, that's for sure.
18:16:49 <gamemanj> Also, "Worse Is Better" reminds me of "War Is Peace", somehow.
18:17:29 <\oren\> e.g. "\300\301" could encode bold instead of "\e[1m"
18:18:11 <\oren\> this is not valid utf-8 because "\300\301" would be a redundant encoding of "\1"
18:21:11 <\oren\> I divide unicode into "material plane" 16 bit characters, "astral plane" characters, "infernal plane" redundant utf-8 encodings, and "supernal plane" utf-8 characters that can't be encoded in utf-16
18:23:17 <gamemanj> funny thing how languages which claim to support international stuff use UTF-16 for everything
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18:23:40 <gamemanj> which just leaves them at square one, really...
18:24:41 <zzo38> So "supernal plane" means stuff outside of Unicode range?
18:25:11 <\oren\> zzo38: right, numbers beyond the range of UTF-16, but still in the range of UTF-8
18:25:17 <gamemanj> It wasn't outside of Unicode range. It is now, but it wasn't really until UTF-16 came along that it was really restricted...
18:26:12 <gamemanj> Nowadays there is no possible way you can even handle the codepoint 0xABCDEF12 in Java. You can't even get the data in, because everything's been sufficiently UTF-16'd.
18:26:38 <zzo38> gamemanj: Can you create an array of 32-bit numbers and use that as storiage instead of an array of 16-bit numbers?
18:26:54 <gamemanj> Yes, but you're doing your string handling manually from that point on.
18:27:24 <gamemanj> And things that take, say, filenames...
18:27:31 <zzo38> (In JavaScript, strings are lists of 16-bit numbers, although there is also Int32Array and that stuff too; those are objects and not strings though.)
18:27:46 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\300\361";'
18:28:13 <\oren\> if it did utf-8 naively then that would just be '1'
18:28:49 -!- kline has joined.
18:28:51 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\300\261";'
18:29:13 <\oren\> crap I always forget the start bytes and end bytes
18:29:53 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\340\202\234";'
18:32:16 <zzo38> (Also in JavaScript, fromCharCode and charCodeAt treat the data as raw 16-bit numbers, while codePointAt and fromCodePoint treat the data in the string as UTF-16 instead. Both are useful, I think.)
18:32:18 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\360\200\200\261";'
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18:34:13 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\360\200\200\261";' | iconv -futf8 -tutf8
18:34:14 <HackEgo> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0
18:34:51 <zzo38> See what utftovlq does with that? Also see what hd does with that.
18:36:40 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\360\200\200\261";' | iconv -f10646-1 -tutf8
18:36:41 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `10646-1' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
18:36:49 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\360\200\200\261";' | iconv -f10646-1/utf8 -tutf8
18:36:49 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `10646-1/utf8' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
18:36:57 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\360\200\200\261";' | iconv -f10646-1/utf-8 -tutf8
18:36:58 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `10646-1/utf-8' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
18:37:15 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\360\200\200\261";' | iconv -fiso:10646/utf-8 -tutf8
18:37:15 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `iso:10646/utf-8' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
18:37:21 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\360\200\200\261";' | iconv -fiso:10646 -tutf8
18:37:22 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `iso:10646' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
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18:54:44 <wob_jonas> I just got a letter from Taiwan, containing the SD cards I ordered, and on the envelope, they printed almost the whole address correctly, including all the non-ascii letters. Nice.
18:55:18 <gamemanj> It's Taiwan. Of course they have to support Unicode.
18:57:30 <wob_jonas> But yes, this particular vendor seems to support unicode fine. They don't support international mail address formats, but that's basically impossible with these stupid fixed format forms.
18:58:18 <gamemanj> Makes it sound like a miracle it arrived in one piece...
18:58:40 <zzo38> I am not sure why they should support one without the other
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18:59:45 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: Why? they printed the address almost correct. It should arrive correctly, because the post does generally support international mail, even if they can't handle it in bulk like they can handle PROPERLY formatted mass mail within borders.
19:01:46 <wob_jonas> International mail address formatting is sort of like personal names. You can't make any sane form for it, because there's an infinity of different formats, ever changing by time, and for mail address formats, you can often only find information in various local languages.
19:02:50 <wob_jonas> The only way you can accept any name is to take a SINGLE free-form text input, and the best you can do with international mail is two free-form fields, one containing the rest of the address, and one containing the country, and you force the latter to upper case. But few people do this with mail addresses, because that would just lead to lots of us
19:03:07 <\oren\> I once paid a thing in Japan using a wire transfer.
19:03:14 <wob_jonas> since the people who order also don't understand mail address formats, and enter random junk. They don't even read the guide from the local post office written in their local language.
19:03:20 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
19:03:25 <\oren\> The clerk was very confused by the address I gave
19:03:45 <wob_jonas> Now I'll test if these SD cards actually work, and have the speed they promise.
19:03:56 <\oren\> apparently the people at the Japanese bank figured it out somehow
19:03:58 * APic wonders whether Jeff Dike is a Woman, a Man, or something in between, or none. ;)
19:04:28 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:04:42 <HackEgo> advice \ bin \ canary \ candide \ cdescs \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ ls \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ ps \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ theorems \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
19:04:47 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \
19:04:50 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ bardsworthlist \ before \
19:05:12 <APic> `` cd bin; cd 2017; ls
19:05:13 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: cd: 2017: Not a directory \ ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addtodo \ aglist \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ as
19:05:19 <APic> `` cd bin; file 2017
19:05:20 <HackEgo> 2017: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
19:05:30 <APic> `` cd bin; ls -la 2017
19:05:31 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 79 Jan 1 2016 2017
19:05:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
19:06:10 <APic> Wrong World ;)
19:06:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: export: not found
19:06:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
19:06:46 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, international mail transfer is sort of strange too. banks ask for the IBAN number (a nice standardized format number that uniquely identifies the recipient account), name of recipient, name of bank of recieving account, and the town of that bank (how the fuck should I know that?).
19:06:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
19:07:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:07:53 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: hw: command not found
19:08:05 <wob_jonas> you can do international bank transfer and international train tickets with handwritten form, which is basically impossible for in-country train tickets or bank transfer, because in-country is too automated to mess with any handwriting.
19:09:00 <gamemanj> I vaguely recall there's also numbers just in case that fails, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a barcode
19:09:57 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
19:10:15 <\oren\> I just talked to the clerk to do the bank transfer, so I was like, you need the number three, then c h o m e, then nishi, that's n i s h i
19:10:33 <wob_jonas> Here, most train tickets are just plain printed to special paper, except for train tickets you print at home (as opposed to buy from home and print it from a self-operated machine at the big stations), which has some sort of machine-readable barcode,
19:10:38 <\oren\> and so on it was a huge pain
19:10:55 <wob_jonas> presumably because the home-printed one doesn't have a special paper to prove its authenticity, so they need to check it more carefully that you're not just making up all the data.
19:12:02 <gamemanj> They probably check anyway, even with special paper or magnetic stripes
19:12:25 <gamemanj> firstly there's the ticket entry gates
19:12:34 <gamemanj> those are likely network-connected if not anything else
19:12:52 <gamemanj> then there's the fact the trains generally have poor Wifi, bet it works a lot better for the ticket inspector's machine
19:13:27 <\oren\> well, you could use an offline protocol
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19:13:47 <gamemanj> Nah, you need to be able to verify the ticket wasn't reused
19:14:14 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: They don't check the tickets you buy at a station. The controller just reads it and marks it without using any electronics. He must trust the special paper, because there's nothing on it they could verify in their head. (Controllers aren't require to be able to compute public-key cryptography in their head.)
19:14:45 <\oren\> gamemanj: that's why they punch a hole in your ticket
19:15:26 <gamemanj> Pretty sure there's a device they use, but who knows. It's been a while since I was last on a train.
19:15:26 -!- kaoD has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:15:41 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: they put a marking with a pen to make sure you can't reuse them. the marking is just a four digit number (handwritten ugly) that identifies which train you're on, plus, if it's not the same date as the first valid date on the ticket, the date.
19:15:50 <APic> \oren\: Here (Germany) they just stamp Ink on it, they do not punch a Hole
19:16:06 <\oren\> true. I last took a train in 2013 or so before they shut down the Ontario Northland line.
19:16:06 <wob_jonas> That much is basically enough to check you're not re-using the ticket.
19:16:31 <wob_jonas> Not completely, but almost, as in, all the ways you could reuse it are very impractical and you can't gain much from them.
19:17:04 <wob_jonas> It's actually much harder to cheat than on the Budapest public transport.
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19:17:37 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: there's an electronic device the controllers use for selling tickets on the train, and for checking self-printed tickets.
19:17:52 <wob_jonas> they don't use that for ordinary tickets.
19:18:15 <\oren\> I suppose I also took the Shinkansen, but that was all electronic with magstripes, I'm not even sure the train had an actual driver
19:18:50 <\oren\> the ticket gets read when you enter the stations, and again when you leave
19:19:07 <\oren\> It might even be written
19:19:19 <wob_jonas> \oren\: what? you need a driver for any train unless it's all in an underground tunnel, don't you? You might not need a _controller_, but you need a driver.
19:20:55 <\oren\> this was the narita-tokyo line, the whole line is closed in with fences
19:21:13 <\oren\> and a lot of it is raised
19:22:14 <wob_jonas> \oren\: is it closed enough that even medium-sized animals can't cross it level?
19:22:56 <wob_jonas> I wonder if you can close a surface train line that well.
19:23:06 <wob_jonas> Maybe that's possible in Japan, I dunno.
19:23:16 <\oren\> much of the line is inside city
19:23:21 <APic> Yah, the Train in Nuremberg here is also only in the Underground
19:24:07 <\oren\> you only get a few minutes of rice paddies before you start having the train pass within a few feet of buildings onboth sides
19:24:30 <\oren\> like you can literally look into some people's bedroom windows
19:24:45 <wob_jonas> APic: the new M4 metro line is completely underground and without drivers (but instead it has two or three attendants at the platform of every station plus people watching it remotely, so I'm not sure how much they gain from no drivers)
19:25:49 <\oren\> I wonder what it would be like to take the narita-tokyo line at say, 11 pm
19:25:54 <APic> People just trust humanoid Figures way too much.
19:26:40 <gamemanj> remember, a cardboard cutout works just as well as a real driver
19:27:04 <gamemanj> at least, a driver who is asleep
19:28:37 <\oren\> or a driver who is trying to catch pokemon by hurling pokeballs at them as he passes by them at 300 km/h
19:28:59 <gamemanj> If Pokemon Go infects train drivers
19:29:37 <\oren\> actually, the narita line only goes at like 150 kmh becuase of you know, passing right by houses
19:29:50 <APic> We are doomed by the Matrix no Matter what happens.
19:30:03 <\oren\> but if you took like the tokyo-osaka line, lol
19:30:12 <fizzie> I saw this at a park the other day: https://zem.fi/tmp/pgo.jpg
19:30:33 <fizzie> (The park was full of people playing.)
19:31:06 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: dunno, despite that it creeped me out when I saw a tram driver messing with his handheld mobile phone in the same station where a careless pedestrian stepped under the tram just a day before (he turned out to be our new co-worker, who started working that day, and didn't get seriously injured);
19:31:39 <gamemanj> I don't blame them for putting a sign like that up... At least it's not one of those graveyards with pokestops in...
19:31:49 <wob_jonas> the actual fact is that bus drivers and tram drivers manage to drive an order of magnitude safer than the car drivers, and this is quite consistently true because it applies to both Europe and America.
19:32:26 <\oren\> oh god what if someone showed up to a burial and it was like "how did you know him?" "look, a dragonite!"
19:32:40 <wob_jonas> (This was before Pokemon Go, but after smartphones.)
19:33:29 <gamemanj> Don't worry, it won't be the case anymore.
19:33:45 <gamemanj> I'm talking to wob_jonas, BTW.
19:34:07 <gamemanj> Unfortunately, people will show up to burials talking about dragonites.
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19:35:10 <fizzie> There's a memorial to Marc Bolan nearby here, around the place where he died in a car crash.
19:35:13 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolan%27s_Rock_Shrine
19:35:19 <fizzie> It's a Pokémon Go gym.
19:35:41 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: I'm not sure. Aren't Pokemon Go players and bus drivers somewhat different age groups? Also, I expect the Pokemon Go craze will get much lower in a year, when people realize the game doesn't live up to its expectation and the great premise, and companies start to make better games like that.
19:36:04 <wob_jonas> This is slow. Is my SD card reader slow? Or the motherboard or what? I don't get it.
19:36:10 <\oren\> I know a bus criver who is 31 or so
19:36:23 <APic> wob_jonas: What is „this“?
19:36:33 <wob_jonas> APic: testing speed of new SD card
19:37:00 <APic> SSD-Memory is Rocket-Science B-)
19:37:42 <wob_jonas> Maybe I need a newer SD card reader or something. Or a newer computer. Definitely a new computer, this one is old, regardless of this SD card thing.
19:38:30 <APic> Google-branded Cell-Phones stopped supporting removable microSDs because of the Driver-Hell
19:39:07 <APic> My Nexus 5X has „/sdcard“ on the non-removable 32GB-Storage
19:39:30 <APic> While my Nokia N900 has 32GB internal eMMC _and_ a microSD-Slot
19:39:43 <wob_jonas> what driver hell? they seem to just work for me. I thought they just stopped with removable micro sd because wireless transfer through wifi and bluetooth got well supported enough, plus they want to push people to store their files online.
19:39:48 * APic loves his N900. Would not have bought the Nexus. Got it from a rich Friend as a Present
19:40:06 <APic> I do not know what Hell specifically. Just read about it.
19:40:21 <wob_jonas> Driver hell is true, but not about SD cards I think.
19:40:22 * APic really needs a Hardware-Keyboard on his main Phone
19:40:46 <wob_jonas> But don't believe me, I'm not a hardware guy.
19:41:05 * APic is a Discordian and thus forbidden to believe whatever he reads. B-)
19:41:17 <gamemanj> APic, the sky is generally considered to be blue.
19:41:27 <fizzie> There's the performance thing, as I think wob_jonas is currently finding out.
19:41:47 <gamemanj> So, APic, what do you now believe people generally consider the sky to be?
19:41:53 <APic> The Sky sometimes _looks_ blue, from a given Perspective.
19:42:10 * gamemanj writes down "the depth, it is too much for me"
19:42:15 <APic> I cannot answer that Question generally. It is way too subjective.
19:42:32 <APic> Yah, i am more the Breadth-first-Dude
19:42:36 <gamemanj> What is important about the Question such that it is Capitalized?
19:42:51 <APic> My Capitalizm has nothing to do with any Question.
19:43:18 * APic continues watching the Simpsons S01E11
19:45:24 <zzo38> Is it possible to use a CSS code to make text in multiple columns of a printout?
19:50:03 <\oren\> zzo38: I doubt it but I think you can use enscript or something iirc
19:50:32 <\oren\> oh nvm the command is called a2ps
19:50:55 <zzo38> The data I have is in a table that spans multiple pages. Using column-count for the body just causes it to omit all but the first page from the printout; it doesn't actually do what I want.
19:51:16 <zzo38> The result needs to be HTML though.
19:51:20 <\oren\> it will output postscript that you can sent directly to the printer
19:51:35 <zzo38> No, I need the output to be HTML.
19:51:54 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, do you want a long table? or to break text to columns automatically?
19:52:40 <zzo38> It is a long table with many rows. I want it to fit the rows that don't fit on one page first on the top on the right of the page, and then once it reaches the bottom of the right part of that page, to start on the next page.
19:53:59 <zzo38> (Display of this document on continuous media is irrelevant; this document is only intended for paged media.)
19:54:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: so a long table in multiple columns. dunno, maybe try to read https://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol/ and https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/column-width and stuff like that
19:55:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: if you hadn't said that the output needs to be html, then I'd just suggest to load the html to some office program like libreoffice or ms office, then set the section to multiple columns there, and output an office document (not html) or the rendered printable version.
19:56:14 <wob_jonas> But that probably won't work well if you need html output.
19:56:15 <\oren\> well, you could probably write a program to process it into a series of tables, one on each page, some of which have twice as many rows
19:56:54 <\oren\> twice as many columns, simulating a paginated, two-column formay
19:57:19 <zzo38> How much fit on one page will be unknown at compile time though!
19:58:54 <wob_jonas> zzo38: If you need html, then I say study those css documents, experiment with browsers and printing (to file); and if all else fails, as a fallback, print in single columns wasting half or more of the paper.
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20:00:14 <zzo38> I can just use print preview to test it; I need not use up any paper to test it or print to files.
20:01:48 <wob_jonas> So it seems this wrote the files with 0.13 megabytes speed. That seems very wrong. Even the old SD card reader or anything else (operating system, motherboard, hard disk) shouldn't slow it down that much.
20:02:00 <wob_jonas> I wonder what I messed up with the test.
20:11:46 <wob_jonas> I'm testing the speed of reading back now.
20:19:36 <wob_jonas> I'm not quite sure, but my guess is that it's a problem with the operating system, and it's doing the IO inefficiently somehow.
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20:26:51 <wob_jonas> write speed was 7.6 mebibytes per seconds, which is not great, but much more realistic, read speed was 13.9 mebibytes per second, also not great but realistic.
20:31:09 <\oren\> Hmm, my utf handing code currently falls back to latin 1 in the event of error. Maybe it should fall back to different encodings depending on the kind of error
20:31:50 <\oren\> what encoding would be most likely to include long sequences of high-bytes
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20:33:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\: how long? it could be utf-8, I think, when you encode long paragraphs of text in a cjk script.
20:34:36 <\oren\> I mean suppsoe you have two start bytes in a row? what encodign would be most likely to include that?
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20:34:55 <zzo38> Now I cannot get "page-break-before: avoid" to work.
20:34:59 <\oren\> This is parsing utf-8 but I want it to be very permissive
20:36:18 <zzo38> It says "avoid" is not supported in Firefox.
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20:36:58 <\oren\> hmm, maybe I'll figure that out later. for now, all invalid bytes to latin 1
20:37:46 <\oren\> it would be awesome if a single decoder could intelligently handle various encodings mixed
20:38:36 <zzo38> I think that you should not mix multiple encodings unless there are some kind of control codes or other commands in the file which specify where the encoding changes.
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20:39:27 <zzo38> (Or in cases where the multiple encodings can't interfere, such as UTF-8 with ASCII, or UTF-8 with 7-bit ISO 2022.)
20:39:39 <\oren\> zzo38: but this comes up often when a web page has no encoding marked, and people take it as various ascii-based encodings.
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20:39:48 <\oren\> then when multiple people post
20:40:06 <\oren\> their posts are encoded, each, in the encoding that was default on their system
20:40:30 <\oren\> hence the resultant comment section is full of mojibake
20:41:53 <zzo38> Then whoever reads/receives the files should be allowed to override the encoding (in Firefox this is possible in the View menu).
20:42:35 <\oren\> zzo38: the point is when this happens, you have a single file containing text on several encodings unmarked.
20:42:37 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah. I've seen (non-html) files at work that has xml tags, but contain both utf-8 and some byte encoding in different fields. has no encoding declaration.
20:45:38 <zzo38> Then it might help to add something that can be called from GreaseMonkey or Stylish to declare specified elements as encoding-contexts.
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20:46:51 <zzo38> It would then allow each encoding-context to be set separately according to the user's setting, which can be either auto-detect or set manually, and the context menu can set the encoding within that context.
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21:33:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Where do you get the rule "d(x^2) = 2x dx"?
21:33:47 <shachaf> I mean, I know the answer. But what does it mean exactly?
21:34:07 <zzo38> It means what it is.
21:34:15 <shachaf> And what's the type of the argument to d?
21:34:49 <shachaf> Is it an expression that may have free variables?
21:35:51 <zzo38> See if Wikipedia or something else mentions?
21:35:52 <shachaf> Oh, but you said it the other day.
21:36:04 <shachaf> Do you know what I would read to make sense of it?
21:36:11 <zzo38> One about differential calculus I suppose.
21:36:48 <zzo38> As far as I can tell the argument to d could be anything
21:38:06 <shachaf> how does it, like, know, man?
21:39:23 <zzo38> It knows by the rules of mathematics.
21:41:15 <shachaf> What's the value of this expression? let x = 5 in dx
21:41:54 <shachaf> I suppose the I should ask a major general about differential calculus.
21:42:17 <zzo38> I think it is zero, assuming x cannot change.
21:50:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49672&oldid=49670 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+8)
21:53:04 <shachaf> What about this: let x = 5 in d(x^2)/dx
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22:07:39 <zemhill__> kaoD.first: points -9.60, score 16.93, rank 20/47
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22:21:05 <\oren\> Argh, alpine is confusing when the timestamps are in different time zones
22:21:36 <\oren\> I sent an email and got the reply almost 3 hours before I sent it
22:24:24 <\oren\> because the timestamp on the reply is in santa clara time, but my email's timestamp is in Toronto
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22:33:48 <\oren\> it's funny how we write codepoints in hex. octal would be more suitable for utf-8, and for utf-16, base 32 would be more suitable.
22:36:28 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:38:42 <\oren\> in base-32, upper surrogates are all AV** and lower surrogates are all AW**
22:40:52 <kaoD> anyone here plays on zenhill? I'm trying to do nesting but failing at it
22:41:03 <FireFly> why would octal make more sense for UTF-8?
22:41:35 <shachaf> Someone said that octal is more suitable for x86 encoding.
22:41:43 <shachaf> But I didn't read the argument.
22:41:50 <\oren\> FireFly: because all start bytes are 03xx and all continue bytes are 02xx
22:42:18 <\oren\> each continue byte gives you 6 bits
22:42:28 <FireFly> shachaf: I could see that being the case, because at least Z80 is laid out in a way so that opcodes group neatly if you express them in octal
22:42:56 <\oren\> so if you have a code point in octal, you could just divide it into continue bytes easily
22:43:26 <\oren\> ttp://www.orenwatson.be/utf8guide.htm
22:43:32 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/utf8guide.htm
22:44:58 <fizzie> kaoD: A few, but none of them seem active right now.
22:45:26 <\oren\> basically the encoding looks cryptic as all hell if you have your code point in hex, but in octal it looks trivial
22:45:36 <fizzie> I'm running the thing, but I'm not much of a BF Joust player myself.
22:47:52 <kaoD> fizzie: ah, perhaps you know how nesting works?
22:48:05 <kaoD> !ztest avoid (>)*9 ([ ([ ([ - ]>)*21 ]>)*21 ]>)*21
22:48:05 <\oren\> similarly, if you have an astral plane code point in base 32, then you just subtract B@@@, take the first two digits and add AV@@, and take the last two digits and add AW@@
22:48:05 <zemhill__> kaoD.avoid: points -11.90, score 11.11, rank 43/47
22:48:30 <kaoD> !ztest avoid (>)*9 ( ([ {-} ]>)*21 )%3
22:48:31 <zemhill__> kaoD.avoid: points -25.71, score 7.67, rank 46/47
22:48:49 <kaoD> they get different score, but they should be the same, I think
22:49:27 <fizzie> kaoD: There's no difference between * and % in the implementation, so the latter is interpreted as (>)*9 ( ([ {-} ]>)%21 )*3
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22:50:20 <kaoD> uh, any workaround? or is what I'm doing nonsensical?
22:51:30 <fizzie> I always find it very hard to reason about these things. You might or might not get what you want by having more {}s.
22:51:43 <fizzie> The rule of thumb is, {} always "binds" to the next "available" pair of ()s.
22:52:49 <kaoD> hmm, will think through it
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22:54:05 <fizzie> (a(b{c{d}e}f)%2 g)%3 -> abbc abbc abbc d effg effg effg and so on.
22:55:36 <\oren\> fizzie: is there a standalone version of this preprocessor people can play with?
22:56:38 <fizzie> \oren\: There's no preprocessor, generally you'd end up with huge programs if you actually tried to expand all of it. Instead the (, {, } and ) are just non-time-taking jump instructions with a counter, and a ({-loop counts to a different direction than a })-loop.
22:57:29 <fizzie> That's not to say you couldn't write a piece of code to expand things, and I think there are some BF Joust implementations that do it.
23:11:44 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
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23:34:57 <boily> kalloD, fizziello, he\\oren\, Sgello, mynamello.
23:35:35 <Robdgreat> considering at times the majority of the activity in here consists of it
23:35:36 <boily> Rellobdgreat! it queries the wisdom database!
23:35:55 <boily> you can take a formatted look at it in the PDF in the /topic ↑
23:36:10 <boily> `wisdom # for a random wisdom entry.
23:36:11 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
23:36:15 <HackEgo> slwd//`slwd <wisdom name>//<sed script>
23:36:19 <HackEgo> perpetual motion machine//Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
23:36:24 <boily> ↑ something like that.
23:36:24 <HackEgo> wealhtheow//Wealhtheow is the barkeep in the tavern where the adventuring party of Beowulf meet at the start of the story.
23:36:40 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
23:37:06 <Robdgreat> does it only respond to authorized users, or does the emperor have no clothes?
23:37:19 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? it started with, like, an ø?
23:37:36 <HackEgo> natural transformation//A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
23:37:43 <FireFly> Robdgreat: should respond to anyone
23:38:29 <Robdgreat> I think I ignored the bot last time I was in here >.>
23:52:04 <zemhill__> kaoD.avoid: points -11.90, score 11.11, rank 43/47
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23:56:10 <kaoD> !zjoust sorry >[]<(+)*100000
23:56:12 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:56:12 <zemhill__> kaoD.sorry: points -12.07, score 15.98, rank 16/47
23:59:31 <zemhill__> kaoD.sorry: points -11.86, score 16.31, rank 16/47 (--)
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00:11:44 <myname> notice how all your vowels are diphtongues
00:12:25 <hppavilion[1]> But a dipthong could be allowed in a Syllabary; no reason it couldn't be
00:13:08 <hppavilion[1]> The IPA can spell "hay" in 2 symbols, even though it's h+(eh+ee)
00:13:41 <myname> in german, a, e, i, o and u are single sounds
00:14:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I want a Syllabary or Logogrammery or Abugida for English.
00:14:49 <hppavilion[1]> But they're said in such a smoothly-chained way that, until I first read about "dipthongs", I didn't realize they were 2 sounds
00:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> OTOH, a, e, i, o, and u all make several different noises, and some of them are dipthongs
00:15:55 <hppavilion[1]> (I think the best way to explain writing systems is through Batman, assuming the language is always English)
00:16:40 <myname> we should add unvoiced vowels to wnglish, just because fuck you everybody
00:17:01 <hppavilion[1]> But I've yet to find such thing as an unvoiced vowel
00:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> abugida: b,tm,n (or something, probably move the ,s to be more diacritical)
00:17:34 <myname> i can exactly pronounce one word with such thing
00:17:46 <myname> from the trailer for dead sushi
00:18:54 <hppavilion[1]> Syllabary: Something like (with symbols in [brackets] being stacked vertically) [_o/][~o^]
00:21:58 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, syllabary (the new one, not the old one) is more of an impure abjad
00:23:26 -!- adu has joined.
00:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> adu: If we were using a the Latin Abjad, your name would just be 'd'
00:26:13 <myname> https://youtu.be/zmwgmt7wcv8 chom choms :D
00:26:18 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
00:26:53 <adu> This is what I see: ¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯
00:27:56 <adu> ¯\([ZERO WIDTH SPACE])/¯
00:28:29 <adu> o/^ ([ZERO WIDTH SPACE]) o/^
00:28:38 <quintopia> kaoD: do you realize that your program is equivalent to ....(+)*-1 ?
00:28:45 <myname> i am tempted to actually use that word
00:30:25 <hppavilion[1]> `learn The IPA (short for International Phonetic Abjad) is an international standard encoding all non-vowel sounds in all spoken languages, and is used to indicate the pronunciation of words. It is incredibly useful, unless you need to pronounce a word.
00:30:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'ipa': The IPA (short for International Phonetic Abjad) is an international standard encoding all non-vowel sounds in all spoken languages, and is used to indicate the pronunciation of words. It is incredibly useful, unless you need to pronounce a word.
00:32:09 <hppavilion[1]> [note 1] on the wikipedia page for the IPA is "The acronym 'IPA' strictly refers [...] to the 'International Phonetic Association'. But it is now such a common practice to use the acronym also to refer to the alphabet itself (from the phrase 'International Phonetic Alphabet') that resistance seems pedantic. Context usually serves to disambiguate the two usages."
00:32:25 <hppavilion[1]> Whoever wrote that clearly doesn't really get the IPA
00:33:04 <adu> hppavilion[1]: why did you put a ZWSP in it again?
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00:33:46 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I didn't, HackEgo does it automatically so that it doesn't alert people who are idling
00:34:02 <adu> alert people...
00:34:08 <adu> I'm confused
00:34:15 -!- augur has joined.
00:35:34 <adu> is there something special about ZWSP that bypasses the rules of search?
00:37:21 <adu> or are you saying there is a user named °_o and if you were to use that, then you would notify them, and so you use °[ZWSP]_o so that you don't wake them up?
00:37:26 <HackEgo> Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu!
00:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Most peoples' clients beep when someone says their name
00:38:10 <hppavilion[1]> That's why I keep prefacing my messages with 'adu: ', so you know that I just replied to you]
00:38:12 <\oren\> Mine flashes the screen, but it's the same principle
00:38:18 <adu> hppavilion[1]: but I'm still confused about the ZWSP
00:38:50 <hppavilion[1]> adu: The ZWSP prevents most clients from alerting the user
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00:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> Because usually when HackEgo says someone's name, it isn't actually talking to them
00:39:07 <adu> hppavilion[1]: is there a user named "°_o"?
00:39:43 <hppavilion[1]> adu: No, but HackEgo can't really tell who is and isn't a user, so it ZWSPs... everything, I guess
00:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Does ZWSP prevent most clients from looking later in the message?
00:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> My client beeps, the tray icon flashes until I open it, and the message is highlighted in green
00:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> adu: But the [ZWSP] only appears one time per message?
00:40:40 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no, every time you do the crazy eyes
00:40:50 <\oren\> `` echo "hppavilion[1]"
00:40:59 <adu> I don't see the crazy eyes, I only see "¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯"
00:41:20 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "hppavilion[1] "x2;'
00:41:20 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1]
00:41:52 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("hppav"."ilion[1] ")x2;'
00:42:12 <adu> my question has absolutely nothing to do with alerts, or username, my question is why is there a ZWSP in "¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯"?
00:42:20 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print (("hppav"."ilion[1] ")x2);'
00:42:20 <hppavilion[1]> OTOH, the thing meant to prevent me from being alerted doesn't work quite right on my client
00:42:22 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1]
00:42:42 <kaoD> quintopia: oh, didn't know -1 is infinite expansion
00:42:51 <HackEgo> Is there a ZWSP here, adu?
00:42:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: only the crazy eyes
00:43:18 <adu> I think it's a typo (mistake) that everyone has been copy-pasting until the end of time
00:43:28 <hppavilion[1]> If I had to guess who knew, it'd be oerjan, Taneb, or ais523
00:43:57 <\oren\> does mine have a zwsp?
00:44:12 <adu> to me, that line looks like: <HackEgo> sdfghj? "¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯"
00:44:24 <adu> \oren\: yes
00:44:40 <adu> Your line looks like <\oren\> ¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯
00:44:48 <\oren\> ok, let me try to enter it manually
00:45:03 <myname> maybe it is necessary to not compose stuff
00:45:36 <\oren\> `` echo '¯\(°_o)/¯' | od -c
00:45:37 <HackEgo> 0000000 302 257 \ ( 302 260 342 200 213 _ o ) / 302 257 \n \ 0000020
00:45:51 <adu> `` echo '¯\(°_o)/¯' | xxd
00:45:52 <HackEgo> 0000000: c2af 5c28 c2b0 e280 8b5f 6f29 2fc2 af0a ..\(....._o)/...
00:46:00 <hppavilion[1]> adu: In that case, it's either added by the server or by your client
00:46:09 <kaoD> !zjoust sorry ->[]<(+)*-1
00:46:11 <zemhill__> kaoD.sorry: points -11.86, score 16.31, rank 16/47 (--)
00:46:22 <HackEgo> [U+0049 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0027 APOSTROPHE] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0074 LA
00:46:35 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\342"'
00:47:00 <HackEgo> [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
00:47:02 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\342\200\213_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:47:27 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, so the ZWSP is built into the ¯\(°_o)/¯- at least as copied from \oren\
00:47:54 <\oren\> yes, and without it the degree sign doesn't show up
00:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Probably so the degree sign doesn't merge with the _ or something?
00:48:26 <hppavilion[1]> So I guess it's added by either the outgoing client or by the server (probably the former)
00:48:58 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The zero-width space is added to any HackEgo output that doesn't start with letters (for some definition of letter).
00:49:35 <myname> and it wasn't at the start
00:49:40 <hppavilion[1]> I assume e copied it symbol-by-symbol from a unicode page
00:49:45 <fizzie> I wouldn't know about that. But when HackEgo does it, it's a botloop prevention thing -- bot trigger characters tend to be [^A-Za-z0-9].
00:49:46 <myname> besodes noodling, hackego does not change output
00:50:13 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\343\202\234_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:50:22 <adu> now lets see without the ZWSP, what do YOU SEE? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:50:43 <HackEgo> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I]
00:50:49 <adu> hppavilion[1]: The degree symbol is not a combiner
00:50:50 <fizzie> (Copy-pasted from the *i output.)
00:50:59 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you shouldn't have to combine it with anything
00:51:18 <adu> if you do, then that's a bug in your OS
00:52:18 <adu> \oren\: what do you mean it "doesn't show up?"?
00:52:30 <fizzie> Oh, and the zero-width space *inside* the face is to stop the old myndzi script from triggering.
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00:52:49 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\342\200\213_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:52:49 <fizzie> Just so we wouldn't get the stick figure bodies for every non-existent wisdom.
00:53:07 <\oren\> I see (_o) as the face
00:53:48 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\302\260_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:54:41 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(ﾟ_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:55:14 <\oren\> Hmm I think ﾟ fits better than °
00:56:16 <adu> perl -e 'print "\302\257\134\050\302\260\342\200\213\137\157\051\057\302\257\012\n";'
00:56:19 <adu> `perl -e 'print "\302\257\134\050\302\260\342\200\213\137\157\051\057\302\257\012\n";'
00:56:24 <adu> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\134\050\302\260\342\200\213\137\157\051\057\302\257\012\n";'
00:56:28 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Ask oerjan, I guess: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/fec2e65e53bc
00:56:47 <adu> WTF is perl doing
00:57:35 <\oren\> perl -e 'print "\342\200\213"'
00:57:51 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\342\200\213"'
00:58:09 <lambdabot> APic said 7h 45m 8s ago: Thank You very much Dude, that was a quite helpful Message indeed!
00:58:38 <adu> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\302\260_o)\302\257\012\n";'
01:00:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: because having every nonexisting wisdom come with extra multiline noise got old _fast_ hth
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01:03:28 <oerjan> i did not see that one coming.
01:05:56 <oerjan> adu: protip: you can use ` with perl -e if you _don't_ quote the command hth
01:07:35 <APNG> imagine an esolang where you can define functions
01:07:51 <APNG> and you have lua varargs and tail call optimization
01:07:54 <APNG> and nothing else
01:08:01 <APNG> can you write complete programs with only that?
01:08:05 <oerjan> APNG: are you different from APic? you have different whois but i am getting a bit confused.
01:08:22 <APNG> oerjan, I'm Soni... who's APic ?
01:08:37 <oerjan> (thankfully du isn't a picture format. i think.)
01:09:54 <oerjan> APNG: have you heard of lambda calculus or combinatory logic?
01:10:14 <oerjan> or unlambda, an esolang based on the latter.
01:10:24 <APNG> yeah that's the inspiration for the idea, kinda
01:11:04 <APNG> any lambda calculus with tracing JIT?
01:11:18 <APNG> that sounds like it'd be very efficient
01:11:28 <hppavilion[1]> ("there is no apostrophy in "em" because "em" in this case is the proper pronoun, not the quasislang term)
01:11:40 <APNG> just considering my experience with tracing JITs and tail calls and varargs
01:11:50 <APNG> (altho I guess lambda calculus doesn't have varargs...)
01:12:51 <oerjan> you can do varargs in lambda calculus
01:13:16 <oerjan> but you need a way to pass the number of arguments.
01:13:48 <oerjan> (well, you can use a church numeral.)
01:14:28 <APNG> hmm that sounds hard to trace...
01:14:43 <APNG> maybe I'll stick with luajit :/
01:14:57 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (Also, why don't we still have that?) <-- please clarify "that" hth
01:15:48 <shachaf> that sounds like something that you should be kept far away from hth
01:16:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ask myndzi
01:17:24 <oerjan> what e is, is 23 hours idle. sigh.
01:17:59 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Face cards for King/Queen, as normal, plus Bishops, Knights, and Rooks )
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01:20:21 <oerjan> all i know his surname is Shit, and no one understands him.
01:21:16 <alercah> a lot of people seem to know him though
01:23:36 <oerjan> i think that's the same kind of people who could care less.
01:39:48 <hppavilion[1]> The suits in #esoteric hold em are, of course, Clovers, Clubs, Tiles, Diamonds, Amethysts, Aquamarines, Emeralds, Rubies, Sapphires, Moonstones, Sunstones, Opals, Topazes, Turquoises, Ambers, Ivories, Pearls, Hearts, Livers, Gallbladders, Pancreases, Stomachs, Small Intestines, Large Intestines, Bladders, Lungs, Kidneys, Spleens, Pikes, and Spades, plus the extra Tarot suit
01:40:14 <shachaf> I think Double Fanucci is simpler.
01:40:36 <shachaf> "The original 15 suits (Mazes, Books, Rain, Bugs, Fromps, Inkblots, Scythes, Plungers, Faces, Time, Lamps, Hives, Ears, Zurfs, and Tops) each have eleven cards, valued at 0-9 and Infinity. The face cards are as follows: Granola, Death, Light, the Snail, Beauty, Time, the Grue, the Lobster, and the Jester."
01:44:58 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Also, you cannot play a king until we've figured out exactly who's king right now, as it's a very convoluted issue that we've been trying to figure out for at least 8 years
01:45:06 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
01:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> Each Queen in the deck can be either a Queen Consort, Queen Regent, or Queen Regnant
01:46:47 <oerjan> you also need a Drama Queen hth
01:46:59 <zzo38> O, so you have the French suits, Latin suits, and Fanucci suits, and also many others.
01:47:53 <zzo38> (Although, Pentacles are really just a style variant for the suit of Coins; some tarot decks have pentagrams on the coins, but this is not a requirement.)
01:49:23 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know about differential geometry?
01:49:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Drama Queen is in the same "Suit" (the "other suit") as Joker
01:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> Along with Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman, Two-Face, Harley Quinn, Clayface, Man-Bat, and Killer Crock
01:50:28 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not sure
01:50:40 <zzo38> What does differential geometry mean?
01:50:50 <shachaf> I was hoping you would know.
01:50:58 <shachaf> Cale told me there are no good books on it.
01:51:13 <zzo38> (Also, the Wands are really simply Rods. The kind of rods may differ between decks, so in some cases they are wands.)
01:51:37 <oerjan> i thought spivak's books were recommended? not that i've read any.
01:51:58 <hppavilion[1]> If a Pawn card defeats a King, it becomes Lord Protectorate, which is /definitely/ not a King (but is really exactly the same in every way)
01:53:15 <zzo38> What kind of game is that anyways?
01:53:34 <oerjan> shachaf: the ones with pictures, i think.
01:53:35 <\oren\> What if we had a game mixing up mahjong with shogi
01:53:44 <shachaf> oerjan: Not _Calculus on Manifolds_?
01:53:51 <zzo38> \oren\: I did try to think of such thing at one time but I don't know how
01:54:06 <shachaf> oerjan: I have that one. But it's not the one with pictures.
01:54:08 <oerjan> you are asking me about something i've explicitly told i haven't read?
01:54:16 <shachaf> Maybe you're thinking of https://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Introduction-Differential-Geometry-Vol/dp/0914098705 and so on.
01:54:24 <hppavilion[1]> "The earth revolves around the Sun, but only while it's waxing"
01:55:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: maybe the Pawn could also become General Secretary hth
01:56:13 <\oren\> I took a course which had some calculus on manifolds in it. IIRC I got a good mark in it. I don't really remember much of it though
01:56:30 <shachaf> \oren\: Do you know Stokes' theorem?
01:56:56 <oerjan> \oren\ has been completely stoked
01:57:47 <shachaf> oerjan: as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgXObaM9i2Q ?
01:57:58 <\oren\> it says the integral of something over the boundary of a thingy it equal to the integral of the thing's derivative over the whole surface
01:58:26 <shachaf> Right. What are these things?
01:58:47 <\oren\> uh, the first thing is a differential form
01:58:57 <\oren\> the second thing is probably a manifold
01:59:10 <shachaf> What should I read to be an expert in differential forms?
01:59:53 <\oren\> a differential form is basically a function
02:01:00 <\oren\> but it's equipped with a thing that tells you which way the output is oriented
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02:01:51 <\oren\> like if you have a f(x,y) -> (u,v) and you know the directions in which u and v are pointed you have a differential 2-form f
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02:02:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:05:27 <\oren\> And the derivative stokes theorem refers to,
02:05:47 <\oren\> is a thing thattells you not only the slope but which way the slope goes.
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02:07:06 <\oren\> so if your function f(x,y) outputs only one thing u, then df outputs two things, the slope over x and the slope over y, at that point
02:08:29 <\oren\> shachaf: so then if you take the derivative of a 2-form f on a 3-manifold then you get a df that has six dimensions of output
02:11:15 <\oren\> effectiively stokes theorem implies, amog other things that if there's some net flux outward from an area, then that net flux has to originate somewhere in the area
02:13:06 <hppavilion[2]> Has anybody ever made a system of serious government with "referee" as a position one can hold?
02:14:04 -!- hppavilion[2] has set topic: Absurdly long attention span. We'd fill this with several dozen novels' worth of text, but Freenode can't handle it. | The string theory channel | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808.
02:16:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: well norwegian doesn't have separate words for referee and judge, so...
02:17:07 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
02:17:34 <hppavilion[1]> (Am I supposed to register my backup nicks? I assume so, but I haven't yet)
02:18:07 <zzo38> Use the NS GROUP command.
02:18:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has changed nick to hppavilion[2].
02:19:00 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
02:19:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: Absurdly long attention span. We'd fill this with several dozen novels' worth of text, but Freenode can't handle it. | The interdisciplinary string loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808.
02:21:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: Absurdly long attention span. We'd fill this with several dozen novels' worth of text, but Freenode can't handle it. | The interdisciplinary string loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
02:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> Venerarchy: The awesomer you are, the more power you have
02:21:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you already made it too long tdnh
02:21:53 <hppavilion[1]> Audaciarchy: The most absurd policy automatically wins
02:22:22 <shachaf> did you know wolves typically only bark when they are pups?
02:22:23 <oerjan> @google the dogs now howl
02:22:25 <lambdabot> https://www.cesarsway.com/dog-behavior/barking-and-howling/why-do-dogs-howl
02:22:31 <shachaf> mature wolves don't usually bark
02:22:39 <\oren\> shachaf: I just went and dug up my textbook. It's http://fourier.math.uoc.gr/~papadim/calculus_on_manifolds/Munkres.pdf
02:22:59 <shachaf> but due to a spot of the neoteny, dogs never fully mature or something
02:23:00 <hppavilion[1]> (A policy is proposed, and a time limit is set to propose alternatives. At the end of the time limit, the most audacious policy is approved)
02:23:07 <shachaf> Cale: Any opinion on Munkres?
02:23:14 <shachaf> Cale: You said you hate everything.
02:23:43 <\oren\> Also, for some reason it is online in full in that professor's home directory
02:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is that, eventually, equilibrium is reached- in order to get a policy you like more approved, you have to make it so ridiculous that it defeats the purpose
02:24:29 <hppavilion[1]> ("We set up a program to offer medical care to people who need it, but it is only available to married bachelors")
02:24:35 <\oren\> Well, that's nice of him, many students can';t afford textbooks with the tuitions these days
02:24:53 <oerjan> Neotenarchy: The most childish people make all the decisions
02:31:41 <HackEgo> Your mysterious reanimate œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
02:32:03 <shachaf> they're extraordinary, so better be wary
02:35:16 <shachaf> \oren\: In differential forms, d(dx) = 0, right?
02:36:12 <hppavilion[1]> laudarchy: A type of democracy where the winner is chosen via applause-o-meter
02:36:47 <shachaf> maybe you should get a twitter account hth
02:44:44 <Cale> shachaf: I've only heard of his topology text
02:48:19 <Cale> http://fourier.math.uoc.gr/~papadim/calculus_on_manifolds/Munkres.pdf -- skimming through this, it looks pretty decent actually
02:48:52 <shachaf> Man, integrals and things are pretty magical.
02:49:09 <Cale> This might actually not suck, I'm surprised
02:49:27 <shachaf> Well, I already ordered Lee.
02:50:23 <shachaf> The derivative of f is so constrained that its integral can be evaluated just by looking at the values of f at the boundary.
02:50:42 <shachaf> Are there other things in maths that are like that?
02:51:23 <Cale> Well, complex analysis takes that kind of thing to an absurd level :)
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02:51:43 <shachaf> I should learn all about complex analysis too.
02:52:01 <shachaf> But I meant outside analysis.
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02:56:12 <Cale> In my head, it's similar to the way that in an ordinary category, if you have a polygon which commutes, there's nothing to say about why. (Thinking of 1-categories as a special case of higher dimensional ones.)
02:57:05 <shachaf> That you have equality rahter than isomorphism or something?
02:57:14 <Cale> Well, that polygon is the boundary of something which is uniquely determined by it.
02:57:38 <Cale> We don't usually even talk about that thing, in classical category theory
02:57:51 <Cale> Sort of the "witness" that the diagram commutes
02:58:36 <shachaf> Is continuity related to naturality?
02:59:24 <shachaf> I mean, there's the sort of obvious thing that you can't change the behavior of a natural transformation or continuous function at just one point.
02:59:29 <Cale> Well, the usual analogy is that categories are sort of like spaces, and functors are sort of like continuous maps between those spaces, and then natural transformations are like homotopies between continuous maps
03:00:09 <shachaf> Right. But I don't think that's what I'm talking about.
03:00:18 <shachaf> That would make functoriality correspond to naturality.
03:01:18 <Cale> Well, for given F, G: C -> D, the natural transformations F -> G are the same thing as functors C x I -> D, where I is the category with two objects and one non-identity arrow: 0 -> 1.
03:01:38 <Cale> and so natural transformations are like continuous maps of a particular sort
03:01:53 <Cale> But maybe that's still not what you're after
03:02:46 <Cale> oh, sorry, not just any functors of that type
03:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> The European Cheek Kiss thing (henceforth ECK) is akin to a US hug
03:03:19 <Cale> Functors H: C x I -> D for which H(-,0) = F, and H(-,1) = G
03:03:35 <hppavilion[1]> And in France, a US hug is about the same as a ECK is to Americans
03:04:14 <Cale> (henceforth ECK)
03:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> At what longitude (and perhaps latitudes, if it isn't a perfect vertical line) do these switch?
03:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> And is it a hard switch, or is there a region of transition?
03:05:13 <hppavilion[1]> During which ECK and hugs are equally acceptable or unacceptable (and which?)
03:05:14 <Cale> I believe that region is called the Atlantic Ocean
03:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: But even in international waters, it's weird near the US but not near Europe
03:06:01 <hppavilion[1]> My guess is there is a transition zone, and in the Northern hemisphere they're both acceptable whereas in the Southern hemisphere they're both weird
03:10:55 <hppavilion[1]> [July, 2026] "Good evening. Leading off tonight, a recent McGill University study finds that every Montreal resident between ages 16 and 60 has had sex with everyone else"
03:17:34 <zzo38> Unless there aren't so many people in Montreal at that time, I would expect such a thing to be unlikely.
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03:27:41 <\oren\> I'm trying to live stream my desktop with VLC, but youtube isn't getting it
03:34:13 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] you seem to be mistaking Europe for a country tdnh. ECKs aren't really acceptable in norway between nonrelated adults.
03:38:32 <Sgeo> "We realized that we were looking at something that no one had ever seen in the wild before. Literally a click on a link to jailbreak an iPhone in one step"
03:38:36 <Sgeo> Isn't that what comex did?
03:38:46 <Sgeo> Or did jailbreakme require more than that?
03:42:49 <\oren\> can you guys see this https://gaming.youtube.com/user/0r3nw4750n/live
03:43:11 <\oren\> I'm testing this stupid streaming thing
03:44:47 <\oren\> like, I can barely see anything, so...
03:45:27 <Sgeo> It's a bit low resolution but yes
03:45:52 <\oren\> and can you hear my voice ok
03:46:13 <Sgeo> It's a bit lagged though
03:46:29 <Sgeo> Both video and sound are behind. I was a bit confused at first
03:46:35 <\oren\> ok, good now I'm gonna try to get a game to run at the same time as the streaming thing
03:48:06 <Sgeo> Hmm, I should try streaming Worms Armageddon at some point
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03:57:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 22m 46s ago: you seem to be mistaking Europe for a country tdnh. ECKs aren't really acceptable in norway between nonrelated adults.
03:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh. But OTOH, they aren't really accepted between related adults either in the US, or at least they're a little weird
03:57:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: and barely then, actually.
03:58:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i thought you meant they were accepted in france (which i've also heard)
03:58:59 <oerjan> definitely, you would use hugs for greeting in norway, and you'd want to be somewhat close even then.
03:59:16 <Sgeo> I don't even have W:A installed!
03:59:20 <oerjan> (otherwise defaulting to handshake)
04:01:16 <hppavilion[1]> So Norway is basically the US, except with happier people, better healthcare, public taxes, free university, and more singing ice queens.
04:01:36 <pikhq> Hmm, maybe we should give Minnesota back to Norway.
04:01:38 <oerjan> i may be slightly out of the loop there.
04:02:46 <oerjan> (i guess you might be referring to that frost thing. which is based on a danish tale, anyway.)
04:03:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: see, i'm out of the llop.
04:04:07 <pikhq> In effect? Well, Minnesota is basically Norway only with English, fewer fjords, and more lakes.
04:04:16 <oerjan> it may have been called than in norway. checking...
04:04:24 <pikhq> (Minnesota was largely settled by Norwegians)
04:04:38 * oerjan hasn't seen it, anyway
04:04:50 * oerjan has read the fairy tale at one point
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04:05:32 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, The Snow Queen does take place in Denmark (Daneland?)
04:06:01 <oerjan> well it starts there, it does have some travelling northward.
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04:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm pretty sure Frozen takes place in Norway (the appearance was based on going to Norway and looking around)
04:07:28 <oerjan> not much reindeer in denmark.
04:07:35 <hppavilion[1]> Also, one of the big plot points is that SOMEBODY freezes the fjord
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04:08:51 <hppavilion[1]> (or, well, a minor plot point that is mentioned by name once, and is really just a smaller-level symbol of the general badness happening)
04:11:13 <hppavilion[1]> "Numerous other typical cultural Scandinavian elements are also included in the film, such as [...] Fjord horses, clothes...."
04:11:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49673&oldid=49672 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+222)
04:11:53 <pikhq> The maypole isn't uniquely Scandinavian though.
04:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> AND THAT'S, LIKE, 1 LEVENSHTEIN AWAY FROM 'MAPOLE'
04:14:00 <hppavilion[1]> (embarrassingly, I needed to find an online calculator for that)
04:14:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49674&oldid=49673 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+70)
04:15:46 <hppavilion[1]> Two men apparently bicker over whether wood should be stacked bark-up or bark-down
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04:51:32 <zzo38> The name of my Dungeons&Dragons character are Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe and Zeux Agem. Do you like these (two difference) way to make up the name of your character?
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05:13:18 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: obviously, bark up
05:13:41 <\oren\> that helps stop the wood from rotting if your tarp gets blown off
05:15:05 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I'm sorry, has Norway not invented science yet?
05:15:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, does \oren\ have eir IRC client set up so e can queue messages until someone comes back online?)
05:19:24 <hppavilion[1]> Also, is bark-up and bark-down a political thing? xD
05:20:48 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like bark should be up so water can't get in, and so that water that does get in would- in theory- seep out the bottom (while if the bark was on the bottom, it would all pool there)
05:25:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: No \oren\ just runs his irc client on a constantly-running web server, and is pretty much always online assuming he is awake
05:26:39 <\oren\> hence I just wait until people come back online, and then start typing
05:27:31 <\oren\> oh am I mixing up mirc codes with ansi codes again
05:28:04 <\oren\> I just wait until people come back
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06:28:11 <HackEgo> U+262C ADI SHAKTI \ UTF-8: e2 98 ac UTF-16BE: 262c Decimal: ☬ \ ☬ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
06:28:34 <\oren\> WTF, that is the sikh symbol... the name is completely wrong
06:31:03 <pikhq> No, the symbol is called Adi Shakti in Sikhism.
06:31:25 <\oren\> all the sources I can find say it's called a Khanda
06:32:20 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti appears to be a goddess
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11:29:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qwerp-Derp * New user account
11:49:56 <HackEgo> but//But is a Trintercal operator.
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12:54:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ℒight]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49675 * TuxCrafting * (+3) Created page with "wat"
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13:48:37 <adu> APNG: I'm confident that lua ia Turing complete
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14:29:57 <b_jonas> Apparently Questionable Content is copying the idea from qwantz that you can read tomorrow's strip today if you subscribe.
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15:43:50 <\oren\> b_jonas: that would lead to problems every time there's a cliffhanger
16:07:49 <HackEgo> olist 1050: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:08:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: why? subscribed people experience the same comic, just shifted about a day in time
16:10:18 <\oren\> b_jonas: the issue is if subscribed people comment on say, twitter about it
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16:18:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: that's absolutely not a problem with qwantz, and probably not much a problem with Questionable Content, since it rarely has cliffhangers that are suddenly resolved in a strip.
16:24:05 <izabera> guess who just moved arin.ga to a new host
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16:33:18 <\oren\> it's hard to diagnose website failures with all the caching that goes on
16:33:47 <\oren\> there should be a cacheless mode for firefox
16:35:17 <\oren\> instead you have to know to hold shift while pressing the reload button
16:40:24 <b_jonas> \oren\: you can disable using firefox's cache at least, with the developer tools (or with certain plugins)
16:40:48 <b_jonas> (the server or proxy it contacts might still be doing some caching)
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16:52:58 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033\133\062\111foobar";'
16:53:10 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033\133\062\101foobar";'
16:53:38 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[31mfoobar";'
16:53:48 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[3Afoobar";'
16:54:21 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[2Jfoobar";'
16:55:03 <\oren\> ok, so irssi at least doesn't let ansi sequences go through and mess up people's terminals
16:55:44 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\tfoobar";'
16:59:54 <FireFly> \oren\: I think that might be replaced HackEgo-side maybe
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17:10:13 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[3mfoobar";'
17:10:28 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[2mfoobar";'
17:10:38 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[4mfoobar";'
17:10:42 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[5mfoobar";'
17:11:02 <\oren\> oh, irssi supports blink but not underline?
17:11:46 <\oren\> maybe it's apple terminal
17:11:48 <FreeFull> Also I'm surprised HackEgo doesn't filter out \033
17:11:58 <FireFly> weechat seems to render the \x1B as '?'
17:13:02 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[6mfoobar";'
17:13:11 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[7mfoobar";'
17:13:32 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[9mfoobar";'
17:13:38 <FreeFull> irssi by default supports these escapes too, in addition to IRC formatting
17:14:07 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[92mfoobar";'
17:14:14 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[102mfoobar";'
17:14:22 <FreeFull> `` printf "\x02Bold test\x02""
17:14:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:14:37 <FreeFull> Ok, that doesn't get filtered out either
17:14:51 <\oren\> FreeFull: but that's a mirc escape
17:14:55 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[1mfoobar";'
17:15:41 <FreeFull> Some clients render inverse video as italics
17:15:51 <\oren\> I see reverse video with underline
17:16:21 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[4mfoobar";'
17:16:37 <b_jonas> FreeFull: I think HackEgo only handles those three bytes specially that can't appear in an irc message protocol-wise.
17:17:10 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\x01foobar";'
17:17:18 <b_jonas> other bots differ, eg. jevalbot doesn't let you print colored stuff
17:17:33 <b_jonas> FreeFull: no, \x01 is only a client convention
17:17:35 <FreeFull> Yeah, the easy solution is to filter out all control characters
17:17:39 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\tfoobar";'
17:17:48 <\oren\> I see a reverse video I
17:17:55 <FreeFull> b_jonas: It did filter \x01 out though
17:18:28 <b_jonas> I haven't looked at the raw stuff
17:18:41 <FreeFull> b_jonas: It replaced it with a .
17:18:43 <b_jonas> maybe I misremembered then. does it also change \x10 ?
17:19:41 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\20foobar";'
17:20:15 <\oren\> I see a reverse video P
17:20:33 <FreeFull> \oren\: That's how irssi displays ^P
17:20:42 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\x10foobar";'
17:21:02 <FreeFull> Yeah, seems HackEgo doesn't filter it out
17:21:31 <FreeFull> \x0A will definitely be treated specially
17:22:14 <FireFly> `` perl -e 'print "foo\x01bar";'
17:22:20 <FireFly> I guess that is to prevent CTCPs
17:22:29 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "foo\12bar";'
17:23:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: isn't the ctcp already prevented by the prefix it puts at the start of the message?
17:23:29 <FireFly> Not necessarily. if you go ""by the spec"", CTCPs are supposed to be allowed anywhere in a PRIVMSG
17:23:36 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\200";'
17:23:53 <FireFly> FreeFull: it prefixes lines with a ZWSP I believe
17:23:54 <b_jonas> does anyone actually care about that spec?
17:24:04 <FireFly> Some weird clients do, I think
17:24:41 <FreeFull> FireFly: Lemme look at my logs
17:24:48 <\oren\> the prefix \xE3\x80\x8B
17:25:30 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print"\xE3\x80\x8B"' | od -c
17:25:31 <HackEgo> 0000000 343 200 213 \ 0000003
17:26:32 <b_jonas> there's so many stupid specs. I care about what the servers actually do (which isn't very well documented, so the best way to find out is asking on the #freenode channel and TIAS) and what other people usually send through their client
17:27:28 <FreeFull> FireFly: I don't see the ZWSP looking at my logs with a hex editor
17:27:42 <\oren\> `` dc -e '8i20o30013p'
17:28:48 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print"\xE2\x80\x8B"' | od -c
17:28:48 <HackEgo> 0000000 342 200 213 \ 0000003
17:28:55 <\oren\> `` dc -e '8i20o20013p'
17:29:24 <HackEgo> [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B]
17:29:36 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print"\xE2\x80\x8B"' | unidecode
17:29:37 <FireFly> FreeFull: hm yeah, I dunno
17:29:58 <FireFly> Or it only adds that prefix in some cases, or something
17:30:01 <\oren\> `` unidecode `perl -e 'print"\xE2\x80\x8B"'`
17:30:01 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
17:30:22 <FreeFull> FireFly: I've checked the rawlog, no prefix there either
17:30:32 <FireFly> Yeah, I can't see any either when I look
17:30:33 <\oren\> I finally translated ​ into the prefix
17:30:52 <\oren\> it's a zeero width space, it's invisible
17:31:11 <\oren\> try setting your broswer to windows 1252
17:31:29 <\oren\> you should see ​ in front of every hackego message
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17:31:49 <FreeFull> \oren\: I'm not using a web browser to look at IRC
17:32:31 <FreeFull> Well, I guess I could open the logs in Firefox, won't change anything though
17:33:06 <\oren\> It will if you go to view->encoding->western(1252)
17:33:38 <FreeFull> Why didn't it show up in the hex editor?
17:33:43 <\oren\> that will allow you to see the raw bytes, with the encoding as seen here http://www.orenwatson.be/cp1252.htm
17:34:13 <FreeFull> Maybe it does prefix only certain messages
17:35:32 <FreeFull> \oren\: It's not in front of every hackego message, only a few of them
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17:40:38 <\oren\> weird, maybe just ones that contain a possible bot prefix at the start?
17:41:16 <FreeFull> \oren\: All the ones starting with control characters had it at the start
17:43:15 <zzo38> Allowing CTCPs anywhere in a message is something that my client does.
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17:45:27 <FireFly> b_jonas: one of the better pages on CTCP that I've found is http://www.kvirc.net/doc/doc_ctcp_handling.html
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18:18:47 <\oren\> ok let's see if this works
18:21:46 <\oren\> or, it doesn't for me, because the script is running on my irssi
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18:28:56 <\oren\> never mind, I'll learn how to make bots later
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19:35:04 <\oren\> hmmm... I need to figure out how to respond to messages.
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19:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> New rule: You use two spaces after a period, but one of them has to be zero-width
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19:53:58 <shachaf> Two halfwidth spaces is better.
19:54:23 <myname> neither makes any sense
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20:19:46 <\oren\> oh, beacuse of latency. lol
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20:28:32 <zzo38> The ISO 2022 code with ESC % should be define for use with UTCE. Even if selected, other DEC 7-bit codes should remain available as done in the terminal emulator that it is implemented in, such as VT100 character graphic shift outs and some of the other ISO 2022 codes that are supported by DEC terminals.
20:30:19 <zzo38> Apparently it would need to be register according to ISO 2375, but I don't know how that is working.
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20:37:00 <\oren\> ok, now I'll just add the actualy features I wanted
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20:54:53 <zemhill__> kaoD.sorry: points -12.02, score 15.84, rank 16/47 (--)
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20:56:47 <zemhill__> kaoD.sorry: points -11.86, score 16.31, rank 16/47 (--)
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21:06:53 <\oren\> hooray, I turned my delta v perl script into a irssi bot thingy
21:21:09 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 11.70 720 poodle
21:22:10 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 16.12 720 poodle
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23:16:13 <\oren\> I'm now a bot! with two commands: ❄ping and ❄dvcalc.
23:20:03 <\oren\> I figured that ❄ would never be taken as a bot prefix
23:20:27 <\oren\> alercah: oh, I should add that
23:21:59 <\oren\> it took some work to get it to do it when *I* say ❄ping though
23:22:45 <\oren\> DHeadshot: once you've done it once though, you can just push up
23:24:19 <\oren\> Does math for Δv of a vessel. Usage: dvcalc <mass in tons> <fuel in units> <isp or engine name> [<fuel type>]; fuel types: lfo, olf, lf/nuk, xen, mono. If omitted, assumed to be lfo or the engine's type.
23:25:27 <DHeadshot> ❄ping - so it works with arguments?
23:26:20 <\oren\> yes, but ping doesn't actually look at them
23:27:57 <DHeadshot> ❄ping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHDmdpsNdlc
23:29:39 <\oren\> for some reason none of the bot scripts I could find examples of were designed so that the bot can respond to itself
23:30:00 <\oren\> maybe they thought that was a bad idea for some reason
23:30:46 <DHeadshot> That's for safety, so I can't put "❄dvcalc ❄ping" or something
23:31:24 <\oren\> the otput of dvcalc is just a number
23:31:53 <\oren\> the number of m/s your vessel has left before Jebediah is stranded in space
23:31:56 <shachaf> copumpkin: You can write a "with" composition function too, can't you?
23:33:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: Ah, https://docs.python.org/2/library/contextlib.html
23:33:32 <fizzie> Your own outgoing messages are protocolistically quite different from others' incoming messages.
23:34:00 <alercah> \oren\: why is it dvcalc and not Δvcalc?
23:34:17 <\oren\> DHeadshot: yeah, so I'll make sure that if I add a thing that can output arbitrarystuff that there is some sort of preventer thingy
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23:34:55 <\oren\> fizzie: yeah, so I had to essentially write two handlers that eventually call the actual bot thingy
23:34:56 <shachaf> copumpkin: ..."Developers that need to support nesting of a variable number of context managers can either use the warnings module to suppress the DeprecationWarning raised by this function or else use this function as a model for an application specific implementation."
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23:35:48 <\oren\> alercah: better not to have more than one character that needs to be copypasted
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23:44:22 <HackEgo> the question//The The Question is the fundamental mystery of #esoteric, and boily is its master.
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23:45:25 <boily> hellochaf. looks like it.
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00:02:29 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I wonder if the primes are going to turn out to have some obviously simple and reversible pattern to them, like that when you take the third root of the square of each prime, they average to e )
00:03:49 <oerjan> pretty sure that averages to infinity hth
00:04:26 * boily grins. «mouah ah ah ah ah»
00:04:41 <oerjan> wtf language has words ending in -yt
00:07:55 <fizzie> I was going to say "Finnish", for -yt.
00:08:16 <oerjan> well yeah, but that doesn't have vowel harmony.
00:08:40 * oerjan is trying not to cheat this time
00:09:36 <fizzie> I don't think we've got any -yr, anyway.
00:11:42 * oerjan starts losing patience.
00:13:53 * oerjan will check welsh, anyway
00:16:16 <oerjan> the mie- makes me think maybe slavic, but -yr is _very_ against that.
00:16:36 <boily> welsh is extremely close.
00:17:19 <boily> no, on the insular side of.
00:20:25 <oerjan> that went better than expected.
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00:47:05 * boily pokkes hppavilion[1] in the brontosaurian bits
00:47:54 <boily> last time I checked, about none.
00:49:09 <hppavilion[1]> Also, why did anybody ever thing fascism was a good idea?
00:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> Like, I always assumed Fascism was just generally bad and that we all know it's bad, and that the word was invented by Jesus or something to say "this is a thing which is bad, and here's the word for it"
00:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> But apparently in WWI, there were actual fascists who saw it as a revolution where they were going to fix the world to put up their new fascist government
00:51:19 <quintopia> have you seen the fascist manifesto?
00:51:33 <hppavilion[1]> "Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature"
00:51:41 <quintopia> it was a pretty decent plan in the beginning
00:52:05 <quintopia> universal suffrage from age 18, proportional representation, pacifism...
00:52:29 <quintopia> it uh...kind of got flushed once mussolini took over, but i've got no qualms with the original plan
00:53:15 <quintopia> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto
00:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Yeah, fascism now generally means "we want a one-party state with an absolute monarch to keep everything running, rather than having to deal with bureaucratic nonsense like "is this ethical?" or "will this start a nuclear war?""
00:55:17 <pikhq> Which is roughly what it developed into under Mussolini.
00:55:29 <quintopia> yeah. but we already had words for that system
00:57:05 <quintopia> i think "communism" has come to mean basically that too, except the monarch is optional there
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00:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> Though instead of seizing possessions of religious congregations, a better idea is "churches have to pay the same fucking taxes as everyone else"
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01:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( What is the malware equivalent of an STD? )
01:02:21 <quintopia> (funny how in computing security a trojan does exactly the opposite of what they do in sex)
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01:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> (It took me a moment to remember that "Trojan" is a brand of condom)
01:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember somebody here talking about a concept of a non-geographical nation...
01:30:48 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_a_white_horse_is_not_a_horse is fun
01:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> It has a picture of a white horse captioned "Is it a horse?"
01:33:37 <oerjan> ceci n'est pas un cheval
01:37:00 <boily> c'est pas un cheval, c'en est la représentation. un encodage de cheval, si on veut.
01:37:14 <hppavilion[1]> "The vocabulary used in telling the same joke at a frat party and to your grandmother might well vary." -- Wikipedia
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03:48:27 <zzo38> It is how Satanism is supposed to work; churches are supposed to have to pay taxes like anyone else does.
03:49:14 <shachaf> Why not pay taxes to the church instead?
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03:51:12 <zzo38> Because, I think, the church is not the government.
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03:51:46 <zzo38> (But the government often waste a lot of the money paid by taxes anyways; I don't know how much better some church would do by taxes or not.)
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05:05:30 <zzo38> How do I change the MIME type assocated with a file extension in Firefox?
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05:17:01 <zzo38> Nevermind I think I found it
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05:17:50 <zzo38> Why does Firefox use RDF/XML anyways? There are better RDF formats than RDF/XML.
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08:59:55 <hppavilion[1]> I just got an audiobook of His Dark Materials 1 off TPB
09:03:38 <izabera> do people actually enjoy audiobooks?
09:03:55 <shachaf> Audiobooks are good for long drives, I hear.
09:19:06 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/rB5on0E.png google is so nice
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09:48:48 <APic> http://xkcd.com/1726/
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09:58:37 <b_jonas> huge fish hat: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/teach-a-man-to-fish
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11:57:22 <Jafet> papal tiaras have been made from many materials, including paper, but not fish
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12:22:01 <HackEgo> olist (1050): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
12:23:51 <b_jonas> boily: I already listed that yesterday
12:24:32 <boily> b_jellonas. aaaaurgh.
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15:54:38 <izabera> are they really? compare them against strawberries
15:55:20 <b_jonas> but strawberries are good too
15:55:26 <quintopia> audiobooks are non GMO, guaranteed, every time
15:58:10 <b_jonas> quintopia: http://xkcd.com/641/
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17:16:47 <\oren\> mostly because of their color
17:17:12 <\oren\> A blueberry milkshake is the most sci-fi looking drink ever
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17:58:16 <fizzie> Cloudberries are cool berries.
18:00:14 <APNG> so uh, brainfuck is one of the simplest esolangs right?
18:01:25 <APNG> is there any way to make a brainfuck with no look-ahead?
18:02:04 <\oren\> My bf implementatin basically doesn't have a parser
18:02:20 <APNG> \oren\, a BF implementation that doesn't do []
18:02:44 <izabera> sounds very non turing complete
18:02:54 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm
18:03:24 <\oren\> all it does is, [ stores its position on a stack
18:03:48 <APNG> yes, [ stores its position on a stack, that's fine
18:03:57 <APNG> but is ] needed?
18:04:21 <APNG> hmm ok right perhaps I should rephrase a bit
18:04:31 <APNG> can you make a language without closed loops?
18:05:48 <\oren\> an imperative lanaugae kinda needs a way to iterate somehow
18:06:56 <APNG> uh idk how to explain what I mean...
18:07:12 <\oren\> like you could have :x which is a label and @x that jumps to :x if the cell is not zero
18:07:22 <APNG> maybe I should start with a text-based programming language before doing this...
18:10:38 <Jafet> the variant where [ does nothing is probably turing complete as well
18:10:39 <izabera> \oren\: that looks like sed
18:10:50 <Jafet> but would be somewhat annoying to program in
18:11:17 <Jafet> not least because every , and . will be run at least once
18:11:20 <izabera> i think in most implmentations ] does nothing
18:12:11 <\oren\> izabera: in mine it pops the stack
18:12:30 <\oren\> if the data pointer doesn't point to a zero cell
18:12:44 <Jafet> ] is required to go back to the matching [, at least
18:12:50 <\oren\> other wise it just pops the stack and does nothing
18:13:21 <izabera> Jafet: i mean lots of people just convert it to c and jit it so [ becomes while (*ptr) and ] becomes } which basically does nothing
18:16:13 <\oren\> maybe I should make one that jit's it directly into machine code
18:16:26 <\oren\> and then exec's the resulting file
18:18:04 <izabera> \oren\: your stack thing is far more interesting
18:18:23 <izabera> your macros, however, are awful
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18:19:53 <\oren\> izabera: did you also notice that the space I use is "allocated"
18:20:17 <\oren\> data=code=(char*)&c-1000;
18:20:22 <izabera> 1000 bytes below the stack
18:20:52 <izabera> vla exist so it's kind of moot though..
18:21:52 <\oren\> I think vla's are implemented in a far safer manner
18:24:37 <\oren\> wait how would you resize a VLA?
18:25:01 <\oren\> it's only variable between calls to the function?
18:25:14 <\oren\> which emans you lose your data
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18:52:41 <int-e> ah, optimism... http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5078239/how-to-remove-the-space-between-inline-block-elements search for "dear google searchers"
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18:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:199.15.233.157]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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19:01:06 <int-e> css was firmly in the "almost good" category for a while... and then they added transitions.
19:05:02 <int-e> maybe every decade needs a blink tag moment
19:05:58 <int-e> (and we got lucky in the noughties)
19:07:24 <\oren\> int-e: I always liked <marquee>
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19:15:47 <Jafet> the css transition is not different to <blink> and <marquee>, it merely generalises them
19:16:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49676&oldid=46123 * Oerjan * (+527) /* New filter */ new section
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20:00:09 <APNG> int-e, at least unicode doesn't have a blink tag yet
20:00:41 <APNG> imagine if "gr(a|e)y" rendered as "gray" for a sec, then "grey", then "gray", and repeat
20:01:14 <APNG> and i18n was about adding as many alternations as possible to the webpages
20:08:19 <APNG> why's it so hard to make a programming language when you have a headache :/
20:10:51 <\oren\> APNG: put your hand in some ice water for 1 full minute. your headache won't go away, but your hand will hurt so much, you won't care about your head
20:12:13 <APNG> but then I won't be able to feel the keyboard
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21:49:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Nthern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49677&oldid=37197 * Nthern * (+172) /* /// and itflabtijtslwi */
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22:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> Here's something fun that would be almost never useful
22:14:21 <hppavilion[1]> (wait, that sounded more like guys rating girls on a scale of 1-10 than I thought it meant)
22:14:50 <hppavilion[1]> Appraising a person's body and brain for the purposes of downloading other peoples' minds into their brain
22:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> So, like, "this person has asthma; I think we'll need to bring the rent down by $40/month at least"
22:27:43 <izabera> i downloaded harry potter and the cursed child in pdf...
22:29:16 <shachaf> Here, read this play instead: http://www.bmds.bm/files/14/files/productions/arcadia/arcadia-by-tom-stoppard.pdf
22:30:16 <HackEgo> carnal embrace? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:35:38 <int-e> `learn CSS are confusing style sheets.
22:35:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'cs': CSS are confusing style sheets.
22:36:43 <shachaf> are you just going to stand there?
22:37:43 <int-e> `mv wisdom/cs wisdom/css
22:37:44 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `wisdom/cs wisdom/css' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
22:37:48 <int-e> `` mv wisdom/cs wisdom/css
22:37:51 <HackEgo> CSS are confusing style sheets.
22:38:35 <int-e> yes, but their singular is also CSS
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22:39:19 <HackEgo> potion of confusing? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:39:32 <shachaf> zzo38: Please add that wisdom entry.
22:39:51 * int-e spent several hours the last two days tweaking some CSS.
22:39:51 <zzo38> I do not know what to write
22:40:00 <shachaf> What is Potion of Confusing?
22:40:22 <int-e> I can't recommend it (CSS).
22:40:45 <int-e> and I didn't even enter browser compatibility territory.
22:40:56 <shachaf> int-e: CSS has flex nowadays.
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22:42:37 <int-e> but I learned about that too late in the process
22:43:13 <shachaf> I wrote a bit of CSS for http://slbkbs.org:1619/game/test
22:43:31 <shachaf> It was a mess until I figured out flex.
22:48:22 <HackEgo> CSS are confusing style sheets.
22:49:22 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
22:50:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
22:50:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
22:50:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?c: not found
22:50:27 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
22:50:40 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
22:50:44 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
22:51:30 <\oren\> `learn ss esses are confusing
22:51:32 <HackEgo> Learned 's': ss esses are confusing
22:53:26 <HackEgo> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
22:53:31 <shachaf> the whole page is full of nothing but bot spam
22:54:23 <\oren\> spam spam spam spam lovely spam wonderful spam! lovely spam, wonderful spam
22:54:45 <int-e> `` slwed s//ss e(.*)/E\1./
22:54:46 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `slwed s//ss e(.*)/E\1./'
22:54:52 <int-e> `` slwd s//ss e(.*)/E\1./
22:54:53 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `slwd s//ss e(.*)/E\1./'
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22:55:14 <int-e> `slwd s//ss e(.*)/E\1./
22:55:14 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 14: unterminated `s' command
22:55:30 <int-e> `slwd s//s/ss e(.*)/E\1./
22:55:30 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 16: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
22:55:38 <int-e> `slwd s//s/ss e\(.*\)/E\1./
22:55:40 <HackEgo> wisdom/s//Esses are confusing.
22:55:56 <int-e> That could have gone better.
22:56:59 * int-e tries sleep instead.
23:01:02 * boily pokes int-e in the sleepy bits
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23:13:45 <HackEgo> [U+263A WHITE SMILING FACE]
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23:27:43 <HackEgo> [U+26A0 WARNING SIGN] [U+FE0F VARIATION SELECTOR-16]
23:27:59 <HackEgo> od: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `od --help' for more information.
23:28:17 <HackEgo> 0000000 342 232 240 357 270 217 \n \ 0000007
23:29:17 <HackEgo> dc: Could not open file 16i8oFEOFp
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