00:01:08 <\oren\> "In the early 1970s a feasibility study was conducted for a project to build a canal from the Mediterranean Sea to the Qattara Depression in the Western Desert of Egypt using nuclear demolition. This project proposed to use 213 devices, with yields of 1 to 1.5 megatons detonated at depths of 100 to 500 meters, to build this canal for the purpose of producing hydroelectric power."
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00:24:01 <Hoolootwo> water doesn't do a very good job of absorbing pressure, since it's very near incompressible
00:24:27 <Hoolootwo> could a light gas like hydrogen work?
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00:25:23 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:26:15 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s;sanity;&, the grace period;
00:26:19 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anyth
00:27:24 <oerjan> `? tanebventions: math
00:27:25 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
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00:28:26 <oerjan> it's time for some rearrangements
00:32:04 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving
00:32:18 <Taneb> It is true that I never invent anything involving
00:33:24 <shachaf> Taneb never invents anythimble
00:35:17 <oerjan> `le/rn tanebventions: food//Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:35:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'tanebventions: food': Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:36:00 <HackEgo> haskell \ haskell' \ rules of wisdom \ speedy gonzales \ tanebventions: food \ tip
00:36:07 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
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00:36:14 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
00:36:14 <oerjan> `le/rn tanebventions: food//Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:36:17 <HackEgo> Relearned 'tanebventions: food': Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:38:18 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,], ..;s/wee.*rooms, //s.cognac, ..
00:38:19 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 31: unknown option to `s'
00:38:39 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,], ..;s/wee.*rooms, //;s.cognac, ..
00:38:41 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:39:41 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,]*, ..
00:39:43 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:40:53 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions//s,maths,& or tanebventions: foods,
00:41:04 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s,maths,& or tanebventions: foods,
00:41:06 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:43:17 <HackEgo> 5842:2015-07-17 <Jafët> ` ln wisdom/haskell{,\\\'}
00:43:55 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/haskell\'
00:43:56 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 102 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/haskell'
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00:44:20 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/haskell
00:44:21 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 102 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/haskell
00:45:13 <HackEgo> Marmite is a hive mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
00:52:40 <HackEgo> Sp e e d y G o n z a l e s i s t h e f a s t e s t
00:52:53 <HackEgo> A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
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01:06:59 <Hoolootwo> there's a couple restaurants around here that don't take tips, mostly east asian places
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01:12:51 <alercah> yeah tips are generally not done in asian cultures
01:13:48 <HackEgo> costume//Costumes are used for cosplay. Taneb sometimes invents them.
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01:36:46 <HackEgo> 1/1:epimorphism//An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category. \ Э//EH? \ ⌨//You are probably using one right now! \ pun//Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. \ shikhin//shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow.
01:36:48 <HackEgo> 1/1:epimorphism//An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category. \ Э//EH? \ ⌨//You are probably using one right now! \ pun//Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. \ shikhin//shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow.
01:41:05 <HackEgo> A monomorphism is just an epimorphism in the opposite category.
01:41:40 <shachaf> "mono" means "(f .) is injective"
01:41:51 <shachaf> "epi" means "(. f) is injective"
01:42:00 <shachaf> "split mono" means "(. f) is surjective"
01:42:05 <shachaf> "split epi" means "(f .) is surjective"
01:42:26 <shachaf> If f is split x, then it's also x
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01:42:56 <shachaf> And of course if f is mono+split epi, or epi+split mono, then (f .) or (. f) is bijective, and so f is iso
01:43:37 <shachaf> mono morphin' power rangers
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02:29:06 <izabera> aww the p!=np was wrong like the other 3453452 p!=np proofs
02:30:16 <shachaf> sounds like solid evidence that P=NP hth
02:32:03 <boily> observing a green apple makes it more likely that a black raven is not NP.
02:33:53 <Taneb> boily, Sainsbury's was out of green apples the other day so therefor a black raven is NP!
02:43:20 <oerjan> grmble the first of every month i use to drain the laptop battery because that's supposedly good for it.
02:43:56 <oerjan> but sometimes i forget about it when i'm doing something else, and come back to discover it has turned off.
02:44:13 * oerjan hopes he found the right settings to get it to hibernate instead
02:45:08 <oerjan> at least my browser remembered the tabs this time, it seems.
02:45:36 <oerjan> vim is particularly annoying because of the way it nags when recovering stuff
02:46:27 <shachaf> vim recovery is so annoying
02:47:02 <shachaf> The standard recovery procedure: vim file; press r; save file with another time; diff two files; delete one of the files and the .swp
02:47:15 <shachaf> Is that what you're supposed to do?
02:47:29 <shachaf> It's so manual. I don't get why there isn't a simple thing to automate it.
02:47:59 <oerjan> no, i just ask it to recover, but it half panics because the recovery file is older than the saved one (probably a bug in file times or something)
02:48:10 <oerjan> and i have to deleted the swp files by hand.
02:48:48 <Sgeo> Instruction Set where indirect addressing can only be done via self-modifying code: https://github.com/pbl64k/ShenzhenIO-Turing
02:48:48 <oerjan> <izabera> who would have guessed it <-- scott aaronson hth
02:49:14 <ais523> Sgeo: tons of instruction sets are like that, especially very old ones and toy ones
02:51:23 <oerjan> as far as i can tell, the .swp file age must be when it was _created_, regardless of when it was changed.
02:53:30 <oerjan> also not all the .swp files are in the same directory.
02:56:12 <oerjan> otoh forced reboots are my trigger for moving to the next tatham puzzle.
02:58:15 <ais523> oerjan: how old is your laptop? draining batteries is useful for nickel-cadmium batteries but basically all laptops nowadays use lithium batteries, which don't care
02:58:27 <oerjan> hm there were some tabs reopened that i had already closed
02:58:37 <oerjan> ais523: it's from 2013
02:58:53 <oerjan> i guess i can stop doing it, then
02:59:22 <ais523> I admit to occasionally having done it out of habit before remembering that modern batteries don't care
02:59:38 <alercah> lithium batteries it's actually better not to fully drain
02:59:40 <oerjan> although i'm not sure if i saw it suggested in the accompanying manual, or just old habit
02:59:41 <shachaf> But you're still not supposed to charge them to full capacity, right?
02:59:52 <ais523> I guess most people here are young enough to not be aware of the battery draining ritual
02:59:54 <alercah> not fully charging is also good, but harder
02:59:56 <oerjan> shachaf: um i'm not getting a choice for that...
03:00:18 <ais523> my laptop's BIOS has settings where you tell it how you use the battery (e.g. in my case, usually on mains power)
03:00:38 <ais523> and it has built-in rules for charging and discharging the battery in an optimal way based on that
03:00:39 <oerjan> maybe there is some setting.
03:01:12 <oerjan> it _does_ occasionally seem to drain the battery a little, even though i rarely remove the cord
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03:31:02 <HackEgo> 1/2:wlcom//Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.) \ htdh//HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao
03:31:21 <HackEgo> 2/2:and Don Ho. \ ☃//Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ coulor//Coulor is the correct spelling. \ אrjan//אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
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05:06:55 <Sgeo> "Another important application of time travel is in computing. Many newer microprocessors take advantage of retrocausal connections as part of their branch prediction and cache prefetch hardware, enabling much higher performance and clock speeds than before."
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13:15:44 <\oren\> On the plus side, my city produces so much sewage that I am able to build a seaport on Shit Creek
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16:13:35 <mroman> if I have three op instructions
16:13:52 <mroman> I might as well have blt target_addr, r0, r1
16:14:12 <ais523> mroman: it's typically because in old CPUs, it's easy to set flags as a side effect without losing any performance
16:14:37 <ais523> adding more ops to an instruction costs performance because the instruction takes longer to read and decode
16:17:34 <ais523> there are tradeoffs with any instruction length
16:17:52 <ais523> other things being equal, though, you want the machine code to be as short as possible so that more of it fits in the cache
16:20:15 <alercah> I dunno anything about modern microcode designs, but in older machines, it's basically free to set a flag since you can hardwire it
16:20:48 <alercah> so if it's used either extremely frequently or extremely infrequently, it has advantages over making it configurable
16:21:22 <ais523> even in modern machines, setting the flag is basically free, reading it can be rather more expensive though (because it introduces a dependency)
16:22:10 <alercah> for jumps in particular, it also lets you compress the jump instructions if they always use the same register to read from
16:25:00 <alercah> and possibly hardware optimize them too?
16:25:28 <mroman> in my case jumps are always absolute
16:25:41 <mroman> and the address always is in a register
16:26:09 <mroman> no there are also relative jumps
16:26:19 <mroman> which are 12bit one's complement
16:26:32 <mroman> so you can jump forward/back 2048
16:26:51 <mroman> because an instruction is 4 bytes
16:26:58 <ais523> alercah: what's your opinion on skip/jump instruction sets?
16:27:04 <mroman> so you can multiply the relative address by 4
16:27:07 <ais523> where all conditionals skip one instruction if they succeed, and all jumps are unconditional?
16:27:46 <alercah> ais523: I've never used one
16:27:59 <mroman> so you can jump forwards/backwards 2047 instructions
16:28:06 <alercah> ais523: sounds nice though?
16:28:10 <ais523> I've used at least one, possibly more
16:28:20 <ais523> it seems like it'd be good for branch target prediction
16:28:42 <ais523> also the one I'm thinking of was on a processor with pipeline length 2, so it could implement a skip simply by flushing the pipeline
16:28:49 <ais523> mroman: because all jumps are unconditional
16:29:03 <mroman> but you still don't know whether the jumps are taken or not
16:29:20 <mroman> so you still don't know where to prefetch stuff from
16:29:41 <ais523> mroman: it solves one of the problems with branch prediction
16:29:49 <mroman> although this makes me wonder whether you could have two pipelines
16:29:55 <mroman> and one always fetches the thing from the jump
16:29:59 <b_jonas> ais523: as for branch prediction, you know what I'd like?
16:30:04 <mroman> and then you just switch pipeline if the jump is taken
16:30:28 <ais523> mroman: with long pipelines that doesn't work if there are multiple jumps in succession
16:30:30 <mroman> let's call it "speculative decoding"
16:30:36 <ais523> which is common with if/else if chains
16:31:56 <ais523> speculative execution is a real field of study, though, so there's probably something similar that works
16:32:04 <b_jonas> a kind of marking for a conditional jump where the programmer claims the result for the jump will be available early. when the decoder encounters such a jump, it doesn't try to predict whether the jump condition is true or false, instead it just stalls the decoder and hopes the execution unit will be able to supply the input for that condition early enough that it knows for sure whether the branch is taken, and when it knows, that's when it will continue
16:32:50 <b_jonas> and since you (the programmer) make that condition available early and not modify it in later statements, there's still statements to execute in the execution pipline when the decoder can continue working
16:33:18 <b_jonas> of course this is a bit harder to do in an architecture like x86 that has too few instructions that don't modify the flags
16:33:37 <ais523> I rather like the "delay slots" technique
16:33:39 <b_jonas> (you could do the same for an indirect jump, but that's a less common case)
16:33:47 <ais523> where all jump instructions have no effect for another X instructions, and then act immediately
16:34:19 <ais523> it needs a fairly smart compiler but it gets around all the branch instruction issues, and unlike VLIW and friends, the source code is still compact
16:34:43 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but "it needs a fairly smart compiler but" never works in practice
16:34:56 <b_jonas> people tried that ten times
16:35:04 <ais523> b_jonas: gcc already has code for implementing this, I think
16:35:08 <ais523> such CPUs are used in practice
16:35:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it has now for mips twenty years later.
16:35:34 <b_jonas> doesn't bode well if you design a new cpu with it
16:35:47 <b_jonas> and I don't think the delay slot design even makes much sense with today's cpus
16:35:49 <ais523> you could just write a gcc and llvm backend at the same time
16:35:54 <b_jonas> that made sense for a fixed instruction time schedule
16:36:18 <ais523> right, it doesn't work so well with the modern parallel pipeline
16:36:26 <ais523> although it would nonetheless help to reduce branch prediction penalties
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18:03:46 <mroman> I'm designing yet another VM.
18:04:02 <mroman> it's more of an ABI layer for processes
18:04:27 <mroman> the point is a VM with complete process isolation
18:04:46 <mroman> so that you can safely run programs in it
18:05:29 <mroman> it's basically a container
18:05:41 <ais523> are you planning to use Linux's existing functionality for that, or to write your own?
18:06:19 <mroman> I'm going to write it OS dependent as a reference implementation.
18:07:26 <mroman> it's like an OS on top of an OS.
18:09:32 <mroman> part of the idea is that you can load dynamic libraries with restricted permissions
18:09:48 <mroman> meaning that if you use a math library
18:10:03 <mroman> that sqrt(x) is not running in the context of the current user
18:10:33 <mroman> if there were to be a security vulnerability in sqrt(x)
18:10:42 <mroman> you'd be very restricted with what you can do with it
18:11:05 <mroman> because it would run in a "computation only" context meaning you have absolutely zero I/O available
18:12:04 <mroman> likewise processes will be started in a restricted environment as well
18:12:08 <mroman> for example if you have a text editor
18:12:26 <mroman> which has a root directory of course (containing the binary of itself and stuff)
18:12:41 <mroman> it will only have permissions to the file opened and that root directory
18:12:57 <mroman> so if there were an error in the parsing code of that text editor
18:13:05 <ais523> mroman: so what happens if someone does sqrt(-1) and raises a signal?
18:13:09 <mroman> the damage would be _very_ restricted.
18:13:15 <ais523> or does error handling have its own rules?
18:13:44 <shachaf> Is there an esolang where the primary form of output is through timing?
18:13:57 <mroman> and by signal you mean like linux signals?
18:14:19 <alercah> mroman: have you seen Fuschia?
18:14:23 <mroman> computation only can't even call os functions
18:15:10 <mroman> of course, this has implications on programmers
18:15:19 <mroman> because you wouldn't design software like
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18:15:31 <alercah> mroman: what about a hardware exception?
18:15:33 <mroman> sub parse(string path) end sub
18:15:48 <mroman> but sub parse(stream<char> path) end sub
18:15:53 <mroman> and have the I/O in a different component
18:15:59 <mroman> you'd seperate I/O from non-I/O
18:16:31 <mroman> alercah: terminates the process.
18:16:50 <alercah> mroman: that seems like a loophole
18:17:06 <alercah> because it's an externally-visible side effect
18:17:20 <alercah> and a malicioius library could crash the process at an inopportune moment
18:17:25 <mroman> you mean a div-by-zero in another component?
18:17:32 <alercah> like I write the sqrt component
18:17:40 <ais523> but the less-malicious alternative would involve checked exceptions
18:17:43 <alercah> I decide that this time, I'm actually going to divide by 0 and crash you instead
18:17:47 <ais523> and that requires changes to the programming languages
18:17:59 <ais523> you couldn't just do it on binaries, it'd be part of the ABI
18:18:34 <ais523> (although come to think of it, ABI violations are another possibility; say the calling convention says that you're supposed to restore r10 to its original value before returning from a function, what happens if the called code doesn't?)
18:18:37 <mroman> haven't thought too much about that
18:18:45 <mroman> security wise a div-by-zero isn't too much to worry about
18:18:56 <mroman> so I haven't thought about that aspect yet
18:19:04 <alercah> ais523: yeah, or any other sort of illegal instruction
18:19:06 <mroman> worst case the process dies
18:19:09 <alercah> mroman: I think you would like fuschia
18:19:40 <mroman> "Did you mean: fuchsia"
18:20:18 <alercah> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia
18:20:21 <mroman> because google likes fuchsia more
18:20:56 <ais523> didn't xkcd find that "fuchsia" is the most frequently misspelled colour name?
18:21:11 <alercah> yes because the spelling is dumb
18:21:36 <mroman> it's pronounced fuchsia
18:21:43 <mroman> how can you misspell that?
18:21:50 <shachaf> imo "colour" is the most frequently misspelled color name
18:21:56 <mroman> it's written as it's spelled
18:22:21 <ais523> the UK pronunciation is more like "fyew-sha"
18:22:29 <alercah> ^ that's how I pronounce it as well
18:22:35 <alercah> the ch before s makes me want to do a german/irish ch
18:22:54 <ais523> alercah: was that a reply to my comment? if so, how did you type it that fast?
18:22:58 <shachaf> I believe that's the US pronunciation too.
18:23:31 <mroman> German is best language ever anyway
18:23:34 <alercah> and I usually type between 80-100 WPM
18:23:36 <pikhq> How you do pronounce "fuchsia" so it makes *sense*?
18:23:54 <alercah> pikhq: I dunno. I can't even pronounce it in Irish because the vowels are wrong
18:23:57 <ais523> this is pretty worrying, I might have passed out momentarily or something
18:24:05 <alercah> ais523: when did you sleep?
18:24:24 <alercah> so not sleep deprivation probably
18:24:55 <ais523> I was sent to hospital a few months ago because I fainted for no apparent reason
18:25:05 <ais523> but they couldn't figure out the cause, and it hasn't happened again
18:25:28 <ais523> didn't happen this time, though; there are a few tests you can perform to figure out if you just fainted
18:25:31 <ais523> so maybe it's unrelated
18:28:02 <pikhq> Ah, so "fuck sia" indeed. :P
18:29:02 <ais523> (for anyone wondering: excessive sweat, especially from the forehead; skin and especially lips are white; low blood pressure, although that's hard to self-assess)
18:45:51 <mroman> of undiagnosably ill people
18:49:09 <alercah> mroman: my limiting factor is usually deciding what to write, not the actual typing
18:49:40 <alercah> Also I use a keyboard that I value for its comfort, although it's not the fastest tool
18:50:03 <mroman> on a bad day I type 100WPM
18:50:07 <mroman> on a good day about 120
18:50:13 <alercah> on a very good day I'll hit 120
18:50:27 <alercah> I don't IRC as much as I used to and that's how I learned to type quickly
18:50:32 <alercah> programming has much lower WPM demands
18:51:12 <mroman> very few people can sustain 120WPM for more than 2 minutes
18:51:49 <alercah> needs a really good ergonomic setup
18:52:10 <mroman> alercah: I've been sick since uhm.
18:52:53 <ais523> mroman: I've been in the club of undiagnosably ill people for ages
18:53:15 <mroman> only measurable thing is elevated transaminasis.
18:53:26 <ais523> I have some kind of mucus-related or salivary problem that I've seen several doctors about; none could figure it out, but through numerous experiments I discovered that it could be managed simply by drinking water frequently
18:53:30 <mroman> but not elevated enough to indicate anything in particular.
18:54:21 <ais523> mroman: it causes excess mucus production whenever I rehydrate
18:54:41 <ais523> which has knock-on effects of its own
18:54:57 <ais523> but the easy way to prevent it causing trouble is just never dehydrating so that I never have to rehydrate
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18:56:25 <int-e> . o O ( "weord" is a weird word. )
18:56:29 <mroman> my body temperature is too high
18:56:32 <mroman> and tired all the time
18:56:43 <mroman> sometimes deliriously tired at 4pm
18:57:14 <mroman> it's gotten weirder for the last two weeks
18:57:21 <mroman> but I can't go to the doctor anymore
18:58:18 <ais523> I'd better go home, anyway
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18:58:34 <ais523> I'll be online at some point later but possibly not today, maybe not even for a few days
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18:59:00 <alercah> ais523: will you be reachable by email>
19:01:37 <\oren\> I wounder what the actual effect would be of having a container ship sail on a river of pure untreated sewage and chemical waste
19:02:32 <\oren\> in cities:skylines, the main effect is that business on the shores of Shit Creek is booming
19:03:49 <int-e> the engines could be stirring up trouble, quite literally.
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19:11:21 <\oren\> "Cause of accident: hull dissolved in sewage"
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20:00:38 <zzo38> You can make the calculation of leap year needing only one division operation, such as the MMIX code: DIV $0,$0,100; GET $1,rR; CSZ $1,$1,$0; AND $1,$1,3; now if $1=0 then it is a leap year, otherwise it is not a leap year. (These instructions are 63 oops in MMIX.)
20:04:20 <zzo38> The $0 and $1 are registers, while CSZ X,Y,Z means to set X to Z if Y is zero.
20:05:22 <zzo38> Reads the special register rR into $1, where rR is the remainder register.
20:06:43 <mroman> doesn't x86 div put the remainder somewhere?
20:06:50 <mroman> or was IDIV for signed numbers
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20:07:27 <zzo38> I don't know what x86 does
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20:09:09 <zzo38> If you know, you can try to figure out the way for x86 (or even for 8088)
20:10:51 <fizzie> Both DIV and IDIV do the same -- they divide a double-wide number (in ax, dx:ax, edx:eax or rdx:rax) by a regular-sized number (the operand), and put the regular-sized quotient in al/ax/eax/rax and the remainder in ah/dx/edx/rdx.
20:19:10 <\oren\> what is a good refernece for learning to use sqlite better?
20:20:04 <zzo38> Probably the SQLite documentation.
20:23:46 <zemhill> david_werecat.antigen: points 13.21, score 35.52, rank 5/47 (+1)
20:23:50 <zseri> why are there DIV and IDIV? what's the difference between them?
20:24:13 <int-e> idiv treats numbers as signed
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20:34:07 <mroman> zseri: add and sub works for both unsigned and signed numbers (two's complement)
20:34:12 <mroman> so there's imul and idiv.
20:38:50 <int-e> (there's also an imul r, r/m variant that works with two values of the same size, updating the first with the result; there is no mul variant for that because it would produce the same results)
20:40:55 <int-e> oh and I forgot the slightly crazy imul r, r/m, imm variant... which assigns to the first operant the second operant multiplied with the immediate.
20:41:32 <int-e> does x86_64 still have all those?
20:43:56 <int-e> With the immediate restricted to 32 bits when using 64 bit operands. Which is fine; afaiui it's really designed for indexing into arrays with large element sizes.
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21:05:53 <\oren\> I am considering the idea of a massivley multiplayer game where game-logic is entirely implemented as constraints and stored procedures
21:06:07 <alercah> I don't think massively multiplayer and that design go together
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21:41:05 <Taneb> Massively multiplayer online database
21:41:37 <zzo38> SQLite has no stored procedures, although you can use triggers inatead.
21:41:39 <mroman> there's one file on a smb share
21:41:43 <mroman> and players connect to the share
21:42:26 <zzo38> Triggers in SQLite can't have statements that have WITH at start, although WITH is allowed in subqueries and so on.
21:43:02 <mroman> \oren\: If you do that
21:43:06 <mroman> I'll create distributed brainfuck
21:43:48 <mroman> I'll create it even if you don't.
21:43:52 <mroman> I don't have anything to do anyway
21:45:44 <mroman> but let me do my VM stuff first.
21:46:41 <mroman> so I gotta do something useful in that time
21:46:47 <mroman> and distributed brainfuck isn't that useful.
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22:52:50 <zzo38> Did anyone make a hardware implementation of MIX (including punch cards and magnetic tapes and everything else like that too)?
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23:53:31 <zzo38> I made this MIX program to tell you if a year is a leap year and also what day of the week is January 1: http://sprunge.us/TdAc
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23:56:14 <zzo38> It expects entering a Gregorian AD year number on the typewriter and then will write the result also on the typewriter.
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00:23:32 <zzo38> Is this method "STA *+1(0:2)" and stuff like that common in MIX programs?
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01:08:44 <Sgeo__> "Do I dare put a character named "Mallock" in a story about memory"
01:12:38 <\oren\> I had really strong soju at work today!
01:13:02 <\oren\> time to play cities: skylines!
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03:07:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Behrooz Binary * New user account
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04:00:07 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/wbaOWxK
04:01:26 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/e6QHSLr
04:16:47 <zzo38> I found another bug in MIXPC that LDiN and LDXN are not work. I found the mistake so that I can fix it.
04:23:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52980&oldid=52977 * Zzo38 * (+357) +[[MIX (Knuth)]]
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05:22:10 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is chanterelles
05:22:12 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is chanterelles
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05:39:35 <\oren\> What should I call the next district after "Extra Orenburg"?
05:39:53 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/yM8y8dB
05:43:44 <oerjan> \oren\: Orenchugladitsnotorenburg
05:46:17 <oerjan> also, ankh-morpork for wherever that sewage continues to
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09:40:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Skastic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52981&oldid=52932 * Mypalmike * (+23)
09:42:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Skastic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52982&oldid=52981 * Mypalmike * (+35)
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11:44:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52983 * Zseri * (+4336) Created page with "Pronounced ''toons-whack'', '''TEWNLSWAC''' is an idea for a programming language by [[User:Zseri]]. It's initially derived from [[TEWELSWAC]], but uses a very different synta..."
11:45:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52984&oldid=52983 * Zseri * (-1) /* External Resources */
11:49:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52985&oldid=52984 * Zseri * (+112) add labels
11:55:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52986&oldid=52954 * Zseri * (+16) +TEWNLSWAC
11:56:11 <zseri> I finally added my own esolang to the wiki
11:57:03 <zseri> The esolang page is still not complete, but only the section about object orientation is missing.
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12:13:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52987&oldid=52985 * Zseri * (+1285) +Object Orientied Programming
12:40:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52988&oldid=52987 * Zseri * (-18) ''a'' command: parentheses no longer needed (keep up to date with interpreter)
12:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zseri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52989&oldid=52304 * Zseri * (+32) +Own languages
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12:47:42 <mroman> Taneb: I'm holding lectures last week and next week.
12:47:53 <mroman> I'm gonna do my lectures
12:47:59 <mroman> and then I'm gonna go.
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12:52:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52990&oldid=52988 * Zseri * (+645) +VM memory model
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13:22:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52991&oldid=52990 * Zseri * (-79) /* 99 bottles of beer */
13:23:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52992&oldid=52991 * Zseri * (+17) /* 99 bottles of beer */ fix indent
13:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52993&oldid=52992 * Zseri * (+0) /* External Resources */ update link
13:35:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWELSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52994&oldid=52231 * Zseri * (+15) /* External Resources */ update link
13:36:51 <fizzie> Aw. With mismatching monitor sizes, X doesn't let me move the cursor to the other screen if it would go to the invisible area. (I was hoping that part of the border would just clamp to the bottom of the other screen.)
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13:53:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52995&oldid=52993 * Zseri * (+178) +Unary Operators
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15:36:54 <zzo38> Is there some configuration of that?
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16:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stefan-hering * New user account
16:11:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52996&oldid=52979 * Stefan-hering * (+253)
16:19:25 <mroman> here comes a new bf derivative :D
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16:19:48 <mroman> to be fair.. Härdfish is also kinda a bf derivative
16:34:40 <zseri> what's new in that derivative
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16:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52997&oldid=52995 * Zseri * (+21) inspired
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16:44:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: START isn't even an operation or pseudo-op, and END needs an argument. what's that about?
16:45:32 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It isn't MIXAL it is a bit different.
16:45:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and what's the point of those extra IN statements?
16:46:31 <zzo38> Which ones you mean?
16:46:52 <wob_jonas> under the comment "It is a leap year"
16:47:24 <zzo38> To read the card " IS NOT A LEAP YEAR" and skip it, so that the next card it reads will be " IS A LEAP YEAR"
16:48:51 <zzo38> Does that make sense now?
16:50:30 <zzo38> (The program does work; I have tested it. I can provide the compiled deck too if you wanted it, whether base 100, base 64, or independent.)
16:52:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ah I see. fancy human-readable output read from the localization data at the end of the program to attract the young who hasn't been pulled into computer programming yet. that's a good idea, I support it
16:52:18 <\oren\> I was like, who is this "king karl" who declared war on me?
16:52:23 <\oren\> and then I was like, OH SHIT
16:54:14 <wob_jonas> \oren\: you got king Carl 14 Gustaf of Sweden to declare a war on you? What did you do?
16:55:28 <zzo38> Is this way of copying rA and rX into index registers common in MIX programming?
16:57:07 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no, Charlemagne
16:57:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: whoa. isn't he already dead? did a regent declare war in his name?
16:59:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also, what's with the PUNCH header? doesn't the assembler just stop reading after one more card after END so you just put extra cards readable by the program directly after them without any formatting?
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16:59:31 <wob_jonas> hmm no wait, it can't work that way
16:59:47 <\oren\> wob_jonas: I'm in 769 AD
17:00:02 <wob_jonas> \oren\: whoa.... is that timezone shenanigans?
17:00:09 <wob_jonas> that can't raise someone from death
17:00:10 <\oren\> I'm playing as the Ummayad Sultan in CKII
17:00:14 <zzo38> The MIXPC assembler does not stop reading after END; you can add further pseudo-ops there (specifically, ORG, EQU, PUNCH, and DECK are allowed, as well as comments).
17:00:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: how does it know when to stop reading then?
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17:01:17 <mroman> zseri: it's funnier than hardfuck
17:01:18 <zzo38> wob_jonas: By EOF. This assembler is not itself written in MIX, so it can be done (it is also a two pass assembler).
17:01:40 <wob_jonas> shouldn't it stop reading one card after END, and perhaps the operator just removes the rest of cards and puts them after the loader card stack as routine?
17:01:57 <wob_jonas> or you just submit the data as a separate stack
17:02:30 <wob_jonas> although a single stack might simplify things if the punchers are heavily underpaid unqualified workers
17:02:30 <zzo38> wob_jonas: In a hardware implementation you may very well do that if you are using MIXAL written in MIX itself with the source program on cards.
17:02:59 <wob_jonas> it doesn't need to be written in MIX itself. it could be any other computer driving a punch card reader
17:03:01 <zzo38> (Although you probably would combine the decks, as there doesn't seem a real reason to submit it as an extra stack if it is static data that is part of the program.)
17:03:17 <zzo38> Well, yes, that too
17:04:10 <wob_jonas> or you could run the program on an expensive MIX machine with a fast cpu and lots of extra devices, and the assembler on a cheap almost-MIX machine.
17:04:36 <wob_jonas> One that's slow and only has 4000 RAM and a punch card reader and a puncher and nothing else.
17:05:25 <mroman> zzo38: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrksBdWcZgQ
17:05:33 <mroman> you seem like a guy who might be intersted in that talk
17:06:18 <zzo38> Yes, you can do that, although the MIXPC assembler is not designed to read the program from cards; it even uses characters that are not in the MIX character set (such as quotation marks), and the DECK pseudo-op reads an external file (it is meant for use with externally prepared data, that may have output using a MIX program, and needs a filename)
17:07:15 <wob_jonas> also, the assembly program could be entered through a terminal directly without punching
17:08:43 <zzo38> The GNU MIX assembler also uses quotation marks though
17:09:29 <wob_jonas> maybe the bunny ears are on the same code as some other character, like the at sign
17:10:15 <zzo38> If you actually do want MIXAL, you could provide an implementation in MIX that is already compiled and you will be able to run it.
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17:24:39 <zzo38> (You could also use another standalone implementation that produces an executable deck; the GNU MIX assembler does not, although it can use MIXAL input (the quotation marks are optional).)
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17:27:37 <zzo38> Has anyone made a hardware MIX implementation (with punch cards and that stuff) yet?
17:28:50 <wob_jonas> dunno. I haven't seen one in http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/ringhome.html at least.
17:32:29 <mroman> there surely at least exists an FFPGA implementation?
17:32:36 <HackEgo> ᛁᚿ//ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏ
17:33:17 <wob_jonas> mroman: dunno, I'm a software guy, I don't usually see what that would win over a pure software emu on a conventional computer, in cases like this where you don't lose much performance by such an emulation
17:34:04 <zzo38> Someone have mention to me to try to make it in Verilog myself, but I do not have any computer punch cards.
17:34:57 <wob_jonas> but I do understand there are people who prefer stuff encoded in wires they solder with their own hand
17:35:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: a terminal with tape then? you need only one or the other
17:36:09 <wob_jonas> plus a custom adapter card between the card reader/punch or the terminal and the computer, which is quite complicated
17:36:52 <wob_jonas> the punch card reader or terminal or disk drive has all the mechanical parts, but the controller used to have all the complicated electronics, back before cheap ICs.
17:37:13 <wob_jonas> that's why they used to have two hard disks or two floppy disks on one controller in such a way that it can control only one at a time
17:37:22 <zzo38> Yes you could, although an implementation that supports all of the I/O of MIX would be something to see, by anyone who is interested in working with these old computer, I suppose.
17:37:49 <wob_jonas> the keyboard and mouse, funnily, have most of the electronics in them though. I don't understand why.
17:38:38 <wob_jonas> for the keyboard it sort of makes sense, because you have to reduce the hundred keys to just a few wires somewhere, but why in the mouse?
17:40:58 <wob_jonas> although keyboards back then lasted way more than these cheap junk people buy these days, so it wasn't like you're throwing away an expensive keyboard controller when the keyboard wears off after two years
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17:41:31 <zzo38> Yes, I like the old IBM Model F keyboard, which however they do not seem to make anymore
17:43:19 <wob_jonas> (not that the stereotypical two-finger hunt and peck 20 wpm medical assistant who's paid for one job, to type what the doctor dictates, would deserve a real keyboard, but still, they buy some of that junk at my workplace... oh I SEE! we have to give something to the stupid interns! yes, it all makes sense now.)
17:44:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, I have a real keyboard for home now. and I have a Genius mouse that works really well and lasts quite long.
17:44:50 <wob_jonas> and I have not too expensive but not too bad either keyboard and mouse and monitor at work now, after a few iterations of asking for better equipment
17:45:22 <wob_jonas> the system of giving junk to people at first and giving them real stuff only when they complain is actually a reasonable cost-saving measure
17:45:32 <wob_jonas> because different people care about different things
17:46:36 <wob_jonas> so you give the guy who needs a comfy chair a comfy chair, and give the guy who needs a good keyboard a good keyboard, and the guy who wants sunshades on the window sunshades, it's way cheaper than preemptively putting comfy chairs and good keyboards at every workstation and sunshades on every window
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17:47:08 <wob_jonas> this works even in non-tech stuff like the coffee maker and coffee and milk they buy
17:47:50 <wob_jonas> you wouldn't believe how some people will work with monitors with a bright pixel, or keyboards with one key not working at all, until you see it
17:48:02 <wob_jonas> people are so different you never know what to expect
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17:48:40 <wob_jonas> some of my co-workers actually started to work in an open space, as in rooms aren't completely separated by walls
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17:55:09 <APic> `? aluminiumminimumimmun
17:55:11 <HackEgo> aluminiumminimumimmun? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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17:56:01 <wob_jonas> `learn Alumni is a compromise spelling suggested to solve the aluminum vs aluminium debate that never really caught on, except in a few big colleges.
17:56:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'alumni': Alumni is a compromise spelling suggested to solve the aluminum vs aluminium debate that never really caught on, except in a few big colleges.
17:57:31 <APic> Here in the Germanies „Alumni“ means „Absolvents“
17:58:42 <wob_jonas> as in, it absorbs oxygen on the surface and mercury?
17:59:18 <zzo38> A hardware MIX implementation can be made that doesn't necessarily have punch cards and typewriter and so on, but does have the ability to connect to all of that equipment, and then you can also substitute other equipment such as a VDU instead of a typewriter if you want to, with the same interface for connection.
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18:04:43 <wob_jonas> sure, if it's already ASCII over a serial lines with given settings, then video terminal and print terminal are equivalent
18:05:12 <wob_jonas> but the driver hardware is still nontrivial
18:05:34 <wob_jonas> and you need some input/output device, either cards or terminal with tape, to use the computer
18:07:02 -!- jaboja has joined.
18:07:51 <wob_jonas> and presumably you won't just invent a completely different I/O device once you go through the trouble of making a hardware MIX specifically instead of some other computer
18:08:25 <wob_jonas> I have better modern computers and don't have a use for MIX though
18:08:37 <zzo38> Yes of course you do need some I/O devices, and probably you are correct you won't just invent a new kind
18:08:39 <wob_jonas> so I don't care much even about an emulator
18:11:47 <HackEgo> We'll try to think of an entry here, but we don't want to rush it.
18:12:56 <zzo38> I can just use software implementations and so don't need a hardware implementation either, although still it can be interesting to see for similar reasons that EDSAC is rebuilt and the other old-style computers that some people like to make.
18:13:33 <zzo38> If I had punch cards then a hardware implementation would be useful to me of course, since I would use that to write a program to read the cards.
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18:19:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52998&oldid=52997 * Zseri * (+79) global/local vars
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18:50:11 -!- [io] has changed nick to iovoid.
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19:01:26 <HackEgo> Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor.
19:02:28 <wob_jonas> `? learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .
19:02:29 <HackEgo> learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:02:38 <wob_jonas> `learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .
19:02:41 <HackEgo> Relearned 'sauron': Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .
19:08:30 -!- sleffy has joined.
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19:27:46 <zzo38> I thought another possible extension into MIX can be a card sorter unit; IOC (16) will control it, where the address field tells it which area to put the most recently read card into. It is an error to use it on a card that has already been sorted. (Maybe there might be a better way though)
19:28:47 * int-e idly wonders whether he has any chance of recognizing Taneb if he should run into him some time next week.
19:29:04 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, y'all're at ICFP?
19:29:41 <int-e> I'll sneak into ICFP a bit but I'm there for FSCD and an associated workshop.
19:29:58 <int-e> (no sneakiness required, this is officially permitted)
19:30:16 <shachaf> Family Support for Children with Disabilities?
19:30:23 <shachaf> I wonder why that's colocated with ICFP
19:30:50 <int-e> http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/conferences/fscd2017/
19:31:19 <wob_jonas> int-e: he's an inventor, so maybe look a professor in his fifties with grey hair, bushy mustache, thick-framed glasses, and so forgetful he wears non-matching socks?
19:31:49 <wob_jonas> unless he's a non-stereotypical inventor
19:32:15 <int-e> it's too bad I forgot the secret #esoteric handshake ;-)
19:32:22 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
19:34:49 <int-e> (And if you look at the ICFP full program you'll find FSCD listed as a separate track, which is a bit weird, but probably good for the visibility of FSCD.)
19:35:09 <Taneb> int-e, I think you have more of a chance of recognizing me than I have what you
19:36:38 <zzo38> On that list of home-built computers I found the "Qibec" computer, which seems to be the same as the TOGA computer described in esolang wiki.
19:37:14 <Taneb> int-e, you're looking for a tall, skinny, white student volunteer with fluffy brown hair and thick eyebrows, possibly wearing glasses
19:37:25 <wob_jonas> also, it's a mathematics conference
19:37:32 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
19:37:44 <wob_jonas> and conferences have conference food, which is usually worse than
19:37:50 <HackEgo> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
19:38:40 <int-e> conference food varies wildly
19:38:54 <HackEgo> tanebventions: biology? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:39:03 <HackEgo> tanebventions: chemistry? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:39:09 <HackEgo> tanebventions: economycs? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:39:11 <HackEgo> tanebventions: economics? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:39:14 <HackEgo> tanebventions: military? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:39:19 <wob_jonas> oh right, those ones are classified
19:39:42 <wob_jonas> but only for ten years, after that they'll be hopelessly obsolete
19:39:52 <wob_jonas> unlike the maths inventions, which live forever
19:40:16 <wob_jonas> shouldn't Curry's paradox be in the foods category?
19:40:18 <int-e> Like naive set theory.
19:41:57 <wob_jonas> "a tall, skinny, white student volunteer with fluffy brown hair and thick eyebrows, possibly wearing glasses" oh great. now you've described like half of the population of the conference
19:41:57 <int-e> Also conjectures are often rather shortlived (though most of those never become famous).
19:42:28 * int-e would be banking on the IRC name being accurate.
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19:45:42 <wob_jonas> That's because there's a big market for conjectures, so most have to be made by unqualified people. Only very few mathematicians have mastered the art of making really good conjectures, ones that spawn an entire branch of research after their death. These include Fermat, Hilbert, Erdős, and a few more.
19:46:21 <int-e> so we agree that not all math inventions live forever?
19:47:01 <wob_jonas> but they have way more chance of living forever than military inventions
19:47:04 <mroman> I came up with the P=1 conjecture
19:47:07 <mroman> nobody disproved it yet.
19:47:23 <Taneb> int-e, my IRC name is accurate
19:47:25 <wob_jonas> the only way those can live forever is if they manage to destroy civilization.
19:47:51 <wob_jonas> Taneb: do you mean it's the same name as shown on your conference badge name tag?
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19:51:35 <Taneb> wob_jonas, name as distinct from nick
19:51:58 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, I see it, I was just not sure what "accurate" meant
19:52:12 <wob_jonas> I thought it would describe some other easily observable attribute
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19:53:24 <Taneb> wob_jonas, I presume int-e could shout my name out and I'd be like "shit that's me"
19:53:38 <shachaf> But you have so many names.
19:54:39 <Taneb> Yes, any of them will do
19:56:13 <wob_jonas> but you can recognize int-e too, from how he isn't swedish
19:56:30 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
19:56:51 <shachaf> are you sure int-e isn't into swedes
20:01:17 <fizzie> Looks like there's a mini-TAS-block in the Games Done Quick special, starting in a bit.
20:02:21 <int-e> . o O ( Oh, this will be my horrible pun for the day: We have reduced the problem to a simple matter of badge processing. )
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20:14:29 <HackEgo> turing machine? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:14:34 <HackEgo> Turing is what you are doing when you Tur.
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20:20:34 <mroman> how do you learn stuff with spaces?
20:21:05 <HackEgo> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
20:21:09 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
20:21:13 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
20:21:26 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /bin/learn: No such file or directory
20:21:33 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ `^ \ `̀ \ ^.^ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ ( \ @ \ * \ # \ ؟ \ ⁗ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ analogy \
20:21:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
20:22:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ./bin/le*: No such file or directory
20:22:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
20:22:12 <HackEgo> ./bin/leann \ ./bin/learn \ ./bin/learn_append \ ./bin/learn_append2 \ ./bin/len \ ./bin/len.pl
20:22:23 <HackEgo> ./bin/slashes \ ./bin/slashlearn
20:22:29 <HackEgo> sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>' >&2 ; exit 1; } \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed 's.^[ ].&.')"
20:22:48 <mroman> `slashlearn turing machine//is a machine that turs.
20:22:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'turing machine': is a machine that turs.
20:22:52 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/le: No such file or directory
20:23:07 <HackEgo> You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount.
20:23:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: turing: not found
20:24:03 <int-e> `slwd turingmachine//s=^=A Turing machine =
20:24:13 <mroman> `slashlearn turing machine//A turing machine is a machine that turs.
20:24:16 <HackEgo> Relearned 'turing machine': A turing machine is a machine that turs.
20:24:34 <int-e> oh I missed the space
20:24:45 <mroman> `slashlearn turing test//A turing test tests by what amount you can tur.
20:24:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'turing test': A turing test tests by what amount you can tur.
20:25:15 * lambdabot pulls slap through the Evil Mangler
20:25:35 <int-e> . o O ( There's no turing back now. The pun will be with us forever. )
20:25:43 <Remavas> `slahlearn enigma://Eine machine that encrypten all
20:25:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slahlearn: not found
20:25:56 <Remavas> `slashlearn enigma://Eine machine that encrypten all
20:25:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'enigma:': Eine machine that encrypten all
20:26:08 <mroman> if you want to be extra correct.
20:26:25 <HackEgo> rules of wosdom? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:26:27 <int-e> mroman: how is that extra correct?
20:26:29 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
20:26:39 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
20:28:03 <int-e> . o O ( Almost forgotten these days, the Enigma pioneered the "rotor" principle that is the foundation of the famous rot13 cipher. )
20:28:49 <zseri> why is there a 'learn' and a 'slashlearn' command?
20:29:09 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
20:29:34 <int-e> `` ls -la bin/le/rn
20:29:36 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/le/rn: No such file or directory
20:29:43 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 17 Oct 28 2016 le/rn -> ../bin/slashlearn
20:29:48 <HackEgo> A turing machine is a machine that turs.
20:30:33 <wob_jonas> and in the spirit of eso, le/rn is magically two commands
20:32:05 <int-e> not anymore, le//rn is no longer any different from le/rn
20:32:07 <zseri> hm, I now lookup bitbucket / GregorR / hackbot
20:32:41 <int-e> the whole slashslash family of commands got slashed
20:33:14 <int-e> hmm, will I need sun screen for oxford :P
20:33:23 <int-e> (the weather forecast says no)
20:34:09 <int-e> hmm, that was inaccurate
20:34:15 <lambdabot> KOAK 021853Z 25004KT 6SM HZ CLR 29/11 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP096 T02940111
20:34:26 <shachaf> It wasas 39° here yesterday.
20:34:39 <int-e> the slashslash family slashed the slash family and the "slash" of its own name that became superfluous.
20:34:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 021920Z VRB01KT 9999 -RA FEW007 SCT015 BKN045 10/09 Q1018 NOSIG
20:35:00 <int-e> been raining for days
20:35:13 <zseri> 2 commands, hm, make key lowercase, save the entry and output it again
20:35:59 <zseri> what was the (gone) different?
20:36:16 <zseri> s/different/difference/
20:36:19 <int-e> the treatment of slashes
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20:37:20 <HackEgo> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
20:37:35 <shachaf> Didn't shaventions include slashlearn?
20:37:54 <HackEgo> 5010:2014-10-02 <shachäf> ` echo $\'#!/bin/bash\\ntopic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1)\\n[ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1\\nvalue=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-)\\necho "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned \xc2\xab$topic\xc2\xbb"\' > bin/slashlearn \ 5011:2014-10-02 <shachäf> ` chmod +x bin/slashlearn \ 5152:2014-11-19 <shachäf> ` sed
20:37:55 <int-e> le/rn foo/bar//baz used to create an entry "foo" with contents "bar//baz", because it cut things at the first slash. le//rn did what le/rn does now: create and entry "foo/bar" with contents "baz"
20:38:58 <HackEgo> A curse is a curse, off course, of course.
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20:45:05 <zseri> I have no idea how to make the TEWNLSWAC language + interpreter more golfy, I think I've added enough shortcuts.
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20:48:55 <zseri> e.g. In TEWNLSWAC, you could simplify ''a = a.b()'' to ''a .= b''
20:50:05 <zseri> or ''a = c:i a'' to ''c:i a''
20:50:44 <wob_jonas> shouldn't that be a;_b. or something cryptic like that?
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20:52:10 <zseri> I wanted to use the same syntax or a similar syntax for similar things.
20:53:15 <zseri> The most shortcuts are just combined assign expressions, but combined assign expressions, that someone would assume, like ''a += b'' aren't supported.
20:54:32 <zseri> or you can combine a bunch of ''a .= b; a .= c;'' ... into ''a .= {b c}''
20:56:24 <wob_jonas> anyway, it's not the syntactic sugar that matters, but the (insert buzzword for new paradigm that's supposed to revolutionarize programming forever this month)
20:59:28 <wob_jonas> just look at Arthur Whitney. where did all that dense syntactic sugar, lack of automatic promotion, and inhomogeneous lists take him? is he a respected esolang designer now?
21:00:28 <wob_jonas> well no he isn't. everyone just cares about brainfuck, which has about the least amount of syntactic sugar or paradigm you could imagine!
21:00:51 <wob_jonas> what a stupid language, and look at how successful!
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21:28:42 <HackEgo> endomorphism//Endomorphisms are just final morphisms.
21:28:43 <HackEgo> 343) <elliott> It's a Toy Story character, you uncultured fuck.
21:28:53 <HackEgo> zzo38//zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
21:29:04 <HackEgo> Cackling Counterpart \ 1UU \ Instant \ Create a token that's a copy of target creature you control. \ Flashback {5}{U}{U} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.) \ ISD-R, C14-R
21:29:13 <wob_jonas> that one needs a refresh of the card database by the way
21:29:46 <HackEgo> ok over low heat until flour and pour \ is thoroughly completely melatais set. Microwave each cake; boil 4 hours, \ until melted too mush of skillet in foil; add remaining 1/4 cup of cheese. \ Stir together flour, baking powder and leaves to a platter. \ Sprinkle with basil. Place fish filling into a large bowl; \ lemon juice only fill stems o
21:30:04 <HackEgo> king Chocolate Yeese Cookery, Muffins, Teles April Mix Typed for you've \ or that and the serving. \ \ From: Date: 08-06-92 Formant, 125 mg sodium, 4 5 dozen \ with fresh apricots, 2 cups, 1/4 cups, 2% of cookies, 1 1/2 (3 T) \ Date: \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: BUFFALO MEAN-LAPTI BREAD \ Categ
21:30:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MMP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52999&oldid=50740 * Zseri * (+250) improve formatting
21:34:58 <zseri> hm, I could remove most of the (mostly useless) syntactic sugar and simplify the (buggy) BISON parser.
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21:51:58 <lambdabot> KOAK 021953Z 27006KT 6SM HZ CLR 34/07 A2980 RMK AO2 SLP092 T03390067
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00:30:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53000&oldid=52973 * LyricLy * (+358)
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02:16:36 <oerjan> ouch a legitimate user isn't getting past the spam filter
02:17:19 <oerjan> OTOH, do we really _want_ people with no reading comprehension...
02:19:01 <oerjan> (is there some way they might not be seeing the error message?)
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03:31:58 <zzo38> {1} Artifact Creature (1/1) ;; When ~ enters the battlefield, if it is a token, you lose the game. Do you like this?
03:37:08 <zzo38> It is a 1/1 creature for one mana, so that is one use.
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03:57:46 <HackEgo> We'll try to think of an entry here, but we don't want to rush it.
03:58:10 <oerjan> (thought it was missing)
03:58:41 <HackEgo> 1/3:phantom_______hoover//It doesn't get any better than this. \ loodun//Loodun Antyok demonstrates how to play a lawful character the exact opposite way from the lawful stupid archetype. \ luftballon//A Luftballon is an experimental weapon first developed by the German military in 1983 designed to scramble fighter jets, causing chaos and sta
03:58:48 <HackEgo> 2/3:rting wars between their enemies. \ oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. \ null pointer//Null pointers wer
03:59:06 <HackEgo> 3/3:e bred to be more exceptional than other pointers. However, the whole effort went nowhere.
03:59:23 <shachaf> \oren\: What about two-storey lowercase g?
04:03:18 <int-e> I hate getting up in the middle of the night.
04:04:56 <oerjan> int-e: are you travelling somewhere?
04:07:35 <int-e> (Oxford, but not for ICFP directly, there's a second conference called FSCD colocated with ICFP)
04:08:06 <oerjan> that sounds like a lot of trouble just to avoid Taneb
04:09:05 <int-e> we have discussed this a bit :P
04:09:28 <int-e> Anyway, it's the same building... it's not completely impossible that we'll meet.
04:10:44 <int-e> assuming I make it there in one piece.
04:12:35 <lambdabot> LOWI 030250Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 -RA FEW006 BKN020 09/08 Q1017
04:13:00 <int-e> Well, eww. But I guess -RA is better than Ra.
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04:34:54 <HackEgo> A turing machine is a machine that turs.
04:36:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ rm-p "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
04:36:25 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 13 Oct 28 2016 le/rm -> ../bin/forget
04:55:07 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it.
04:57:24 <shachaf> i feel like that wisdom entry is maybe overdone a tad hth
04:57:24 <oerjan> `slwd oerjan//s,isiv,ipherabl,
04:57:26 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecipherable is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it.
04:59:08 <HackEgo> come on, you can type seven characters
04:59:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oag: not found
04:59:21 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/wisdom/oerjan
04:59:32 <HackEgo> 9814:2016-12-02 <shachäf> mkx bin/hwrl//echo \'come on, you can type seven characters\'
04:59:50 <shachaf> I completely didn't remember that.
05:03:28 <shachaf> Someone should tanebvent a script that takes a commit id and turns it into a log URL
05:03:41 <shachaf> It needs to account for time zones because tunes logs in Pacific time (I think?).
05:04:17 <pikhq> shachaf: College going alright.
05:04:55 <pikhq> 3 semesters away, whoo.
05:09:58 <oerjan> `8ball Should shachaf take up crocheting?
05:11:22 <shachaf> `8ball What should shachaf take up?
05:12:19 <oerjan> i was _not_ doing that cheat hth
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05:17:23 * oerjan spots 125 mg sodium in one of HackEgo's recipes. are you sure these are healthy?
05:18:09 <shachaf> I had a blood test recently.
05:18:14 <shachaf> Apparently my sodium is slightly low.
05:23:40 <\oren\> So is hurrican Irma also going to Houston?
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05:53:44 <pikhq> I advise against taking a pill of pure sodium.
05:53:56 <pikhq> It might seem the most efficient, but it'll be a bit more exciting than you are likely to appreciate.
05:54:53 <shachaf> Hmm, what if I balance it out by breathing some chlorine at the same time?
05:56:19 <pikhq> Well, it'll add to the excitement.
06:02:26 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDZKUqIjVPY
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07:54:03 <\oren\> To make more room for city, I flattened out the edge of this mountain
07:54:15 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/ADqkuVf
07:55:33 <\oren\> the flattening tool automatically stops at the city limits, so you get a cliff hundreds of feet tall
07:57:29 <int-e> . o O ( I know that money exchanges at airports are ripoffs... but this is the first time I've seen an ATM run by such a money exchange, which offers the same, very favorable (to them, they're a factor 1.15 from the nominal rate) exchange rates... )
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07:59:30 <FjordPrefect> Hey guys, I want to make a language to define rules for a 2d dungeon(rooms, paths and puzzles) with the compiler generating the dungeon
08:00:25 <FjordPrefect> The rules would describe interactions b/w items
08:00:49 <FjordPrefect> And pointers on how to get started on something like this?
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11:06:52 <zseri> I know that a function that takes 2 arguments is a binary function, but is there a similar name for functions or operators with no arguments?
11:21:26 <zseri> I'll use that word now in my esolang's page for TEWNLSWAC.
11:28:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53001&oldid=52998 * Zseri * (-87) Expressions
12:32:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53002&oldid=44705 * Zseri * (+13) dead link
12:39:32 <zseri> I don't know if it's possible to write a brainfuck interpreter in TEWELSWAC or in TEWNLSWAC.
12:44:04 <zseri> but there should be a translation of a subset of HashHell (#hell) to TEWNLSWAC
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13:25:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53003&oldid=9684 * Zseri * (+66) improve formatting
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14:34:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53004&oldid=52399 * Qwertyu63 * (+0)
14:55:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53005&oldid=52623 * Qwertyu63 * (+54)
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15:01:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53006&oldid=53005 * Qwertyu63 * (+224)
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15:24:07 <zseri> Yeah, I finally got it. Hexchat works
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16:51:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53007&oldid=53001 * Zseri * (+30) /* Binary Operators */
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17:22:49 <int-e> Well it seems I made it.
17:44:21 <int-e> riding two of those weird winged things made of aluminium
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18:22:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53008&oldid=9491 * Zseri * (+13) dead link
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19:41:19 <shachaf> I got an answer from Andrej Bauer: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/77487/decidable-properties-of-computable-reals/80811#80811
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20:54:06 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNbLl14kjms
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21:35:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53009 * Stefan-hering * (+1846) Created page with "'''Javagrid''' is a two dimensional language about programming in a 2 dimensional grid. It is still in development. ==Language overview== Code is written in cells. A cell co..."
21:37:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53010&oldid=52986 * Stefan-hering * (+15)
21:39:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53011&oldid=53009 * Stefan-hering * (-14)
21:40:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53012&oldid=53007 * Zseri * (+64) const-reference
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22:34:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Implicit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53013 * MD XF * (+578) Create page (reserve)
22:35:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53014 * MD XF * (+578) Created page with "Implicit, also called SimpleStack, is a WIP language by MD XF. There are two types of commands: * Those that behave differently on strings than they do on integers/floats *..."
22:35:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53015&oldid=53014 * MD XF * (-2)
22:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Implicit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53016&oldid=53013 * MD XF * (-2)
22:35:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Implicit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53017&oldid=53016 * MD XF * (+22)
22:36:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53018&oldid=53015 * MD XF * (+22)
22:38:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53019&oldid=53018 * Ais523 * (-576) please use redirects rather than creating multiple identical pages
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23:45:22 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1127546339
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02:40:27 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1127628055
02:45:08 <oerjan> \oren\: is this about the time you send in the giant monsters?
02:45:43 <imode> only after copying his save file. :P
02:46:03 <oerjan> lynn: do you have the CJam cheat sheet somewhere? someone marked the link as dead on the wiki page
02:46:19 <lynn> oh yeah http://foldr.moe/cjam.pdf
02:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53020&oldid=53002 * Oerjan * (-41) /* Instructions */ Fix link
02:49:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53021&oldid=53020 * Oerjan * (+6) /* Instructions */ pdf warning
03:00:02 <oerjan> "The Official Crainfuck Distribution (dead link) (can someone please mirror this?)" apparently we couldn't.
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03:21:54 <oerjan> `learn Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
03:21:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'fizzbuzz': Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
03:23:52 <oerjan> you are technically correct.
03:24:20 <oerjan> but that wouldn't really improve the wisdom.
03:24:22 <ais523> oerjan: OK, that one's actually pretty funny
03:24:59 <ais523> also, I define "fizzword" as "a word used like a buzzword, but which was never meaningful"
03:24:59 <shachaf> ais523: I think tastes on wisdom entries vary.
03:25:15 <shachaf> So are all fizzwords buzzwords?
03:26:36 <ais523> I think buzzwords are generally originally meaningful, although the original meaning may have been dubiously useful at best and they may often be used in a way unrelated to their meaning
03:30:58 <shachaf> We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple.
03:31:15 <shachaf> The future has plenty of downsides but this is nice.
03:38:03 <oerjan> . o O ( the future brexit all, putin in downsides that trump everything )
03:38:22 <zzo38> Earlier today I tried connecting the printer to the USB on the front of the computer instead of the USB on the back, and this time it did not result a kernel panic
03:40:59 <ais523> did it result in a kernel panic the previous time?
03:45:21 <shachaf> Did you ever write up the rules to your jam?
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03:46:01 <ais523> shachaf: no, although I've been thinking about them
03:46:07 <ais523> trying to pin down certain details
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03:50:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Isny * New user account
03:52:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53022&oldid=52996 * Isny * (+158) /* Introductions */
03:55:43 <\oren\> best song of the game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4H5IArtaw
03:56:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53023&oldid=53010 * Isny * (+10)
03:57:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53024 * Isny * (+56) Created page with "Rev is a small, stack based language based on [[Mouse]]."
03:59:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53025&oldid=53024 * Isny * (+148)
04:01:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53026&oldid=53025 * Isny * (+585)
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04:02:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53027&oldid=53026 * Isny * (+29)
04:06:55 <zzo38> ais523: I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic.
04:07:19 <ais523> shachaf: mostly what each of the resources is used for
04:07:51 <zzo38> What is that game?
04:08:16 <\oren\> zzo38: jigoku kisetsukan
04:08:56 <\oren\> http://store.steampowered.com/app/368950/
04:09:06 <shachaf> i,i with no other recourses but my own resources
04:09:55 <ais523> shachaf: even that wasn't pinned down until fairly recently, and I'm still not 100% on what one of them does in a specific circumstance
04:10:14 <ais523> zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible
04:10:23 <ais523> (the problems can either be balance problems or UI problems)
04:11:06 <imode> solaris is dead, long live solaris.
04:12:11 <shachaf> I was trying to think of a slightly different resource system for Magic: The Gathering at one point.
04:12:36 <zzo38> shachaf: What different resource system?
04:12:41 <ais523> this one's asymmetrical
04:13:04 <shachaf> One property of it was that instead of having red mana, you would have things requiring mana + red as two separate resources.
04:13:29 <shachaf> Which I guess is already the way some games work.
04:13:57 <zzo38> ais523: OK. I had some ideas too, such as writing the rules as a literate computer programming, to make the rules more clear, and if anything remains unclear, you can figure it out by putting it into the computer to figure out.
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04:16:36 <shachaf> MtG resources are pretty complicated.
04:16:48 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has some things unclear and I thought to do by literate computer programming and mathematics to make clearer, although also there is still some klugy rules which are not quite so mathematically elegant; fortunately most of those problems have been fixed. They also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary; while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant,
04:16:52 <shachaf> E.g. karma that you can only use for casting creature spells, or that has an effect on a creature if you use that karma to cast it.
04:18:09 * oerjan thinks zzo38's client needs a wrap long lines feature
04:18:12 <zzo38> Well, it is "mana" and not "karma" in Magic: the Gathering, although yes those things do exist (but they aren't so common)
04:19:29 <zzo38> oerjan: I should perhaps to put in the mode to ring the bell if you try to type too much on one line, but I don't even know what limit
04:19:48 <shachaf> Sometimes there are other restrictions.
04:20:15 <shachaf> Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells
04:20:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, there are many other kinds too.
04:21:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think it's 510 bytes for the whole IRC line
04:21:48 <ais523> and that includes information that's specific to the recipient, IIRC
04:22:03 <ais523> so there's no way to know exactly what limit is safe without knowing all the possible metadata the recipient could see
04:22:50 <shachaf> Play it safe and don't write any messages longer than four bytes.
04:23:10 <zzo38> ais523: That is what I thought, which make it difficult to know what to set it to. I would make it a user configurable setting of course, but still I should have to know what to set it to!
04:23:44 <zzo38> shachaf: Can't; the word PRIVMSG itself is seven bytes.
04:24:39 <shachaf> That's not part of the message.
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04:25:52 <oerjan> wait what. apparently my splitlong.pl script no longer exists on this server.
04:26:06 <alercah> splitlong works badly with freenode anyway
04:26:08 <alercah> been meaning to take it off
04:26:15 <oerjan> the symbolic link goes nowhere
04:26:42 <shachaf> I was going for <oerjan> OKAY
04:26:53 <shachaf> But <zzo38> O,OK works too.
04:27:36 <oerjan> why would i respond to messages directed at other people
04:28:38 <ais523> oerjan: one of the social rules you learn playing werewolf/mafia is not to respond to messages directed at other people
04:28:55 <zzo38> We aren't playing werewolf/mafia.
04:29:02 <ais523> there's no game rule against it but people will get annoyed at you if you do, because it can kind-of mess up their plans (and it looks like you're covering for the intended recipient)
04:29:41 <oerjan> oh i see. splitlong still works, somehow. perhaps it's become an internal irssi feature.
04:30:32 <pikhq> Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC?
04:31:49 <shachaf> ais523: I thought that was an in-person game.
04:31:55 <shachaf> Never heard of it played on IRC.
04:32:09 <ais523> shachaf: I mostly play it on web forums, although I've played it on IRC too
04:32:21 <ais523> it works in pretty much any medium that allows for communication
04:32:24 <ais523> and I don't know what Contact is
04:32:28 <shachaf> It's a word game that can be played in person or over IRC, but I wrote a web application that implements it.
04:32:44 <zzo38> Yes I suppose that I should to add a setting for a bell in case of too long line. For my personal setting, I could assume that it uses a prefix ":zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-999-999.eastlink.ca " at the start (although it isn't actually "999") to figure out what limit to set
04:33:12 <shachaf> One person thinks of a word and reveals some prefix of it, and others try to think of clues for other words that start with that prefix.
04:33:40 <pikhq> Hrm, so there's a prefix part + PRIVMSG + target + message, in the server-to-client side portion.
04:33:42 <shachaf> If they can clue to each other successfully, one letter of the prefix is revealed.
04:34:41 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and "PRIVMSG" and the target and message are already counted, so the only remaining part is the prefix part, and the space that comes between it and "PRIVMSG".
04:35:50 <pikhq> There does not appear to be a maximum prefix length.
04:36:32 <zzo38> Doesn't matter now, since we can guess at it.
04:37:29 <oerjan> isn't it part of WHOIS reply for yourself?
04:37:37 <pikhq> A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned.
04:37:40 <zzo38> If there is a limit for the server to client length, then if the client to server length is not a smaller maximum then you will just make the guess. As I said it can (and I think it should in other client too) be a user-configurable setting.
04:38:01 <pikhq> It's 512 both directions.
04:39:05 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, and that is how to figure out, but still I should to just make the user setting (replacing "-56-48" with "-999-999" instead, in case those numbers change unexpectedly to three digits, which does seem possible).
04:39:51 <oerjan> 512 when counting CRLF, no?
04:39:55 <zzo38> (I actually want to change it to "@zzo38computer.org" instead of "@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca", but it seems that Freenode doesn't support forward-DNS cloaks.)
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04:40:19 <pikhq> oerjan: Correctly.
04:40:26 <ais523> pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS?
04:41:06 <zzo38> But, in case one of my previous messages today was cut off, then please to notify me that I can repeat the part that you did not receive.
04:41:47 <pikhq> I don't know that the prefix is actually required to be a real connection?
04:41:51 <pikhq> I mean, maybe it is.
04:42:02 <pikhq> Oh. There is an entry suggesting it's intended to be.
04:42:15 <pikhq> I don't see it as a hard requirement, but it seems that's the intent.
04:42:23 <shachaf> pikhq: Isn't it about time someone invented a good build system?
04:42:49 <oerjan> zzo38: the one i saw ended with "logical and mathematically elegant,"
04:43:06 <oerjan> which seemed like it might have been cut off
04:43:28 <zzo38> ... while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant, the change itself seems messy to me.
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04:44:40 <oerjan> isn't the prefix replaced with the freenode cloak if you have one?
04:45:06 <zzo38> The domain name is, but not the nickname and username.
04:52:50 <zzo38> ais523: Will you tell me what kind of stuff now is your game? Did you write any rules yet at all, or nothing yet?
04:55:27 <ais523> zzo38: I wrote some but I need to change some of it
04:59:28 <zzo38> Some of my ideas also are, that the cards can be sold in a box with all card of the set, arranged in sections by rarity (for assembling packs), and within each section by alphabetical order, which together with the included list of cards can be used to check in case any are missing.
05:00:19 <zzo38> Also would include the complete printed rules, and a DVD with open-source computer implementation of the rules and complete card database.
05:03:10 <zzo38> Some people have told me that the rarity is meaningless if they are in the boxes like that, but I disagree, because the rarities can be used to construct a "booster draft" like in Magic: the Gathering, or like sealed in Magic: the Gathering.
05:03:43 <zzo38> ais523: What do you think some of the biggest problems with Magic: the Gathering is, then?
05:04:49 <ais523> the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem
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05:05:15 <ais523> because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make
05:05:44 <ais523> in the rules I'm working on, priority is a more important part of the game (meaning that people keep track of it) and is gained much less often (making it less tedious to deal with)
05:06:13 <ais523> specifically, if it's not your turn, you can only do the equivalent of playing a spell or activating an ability if it's a response to something an opponent does
05:06:29 <ais523> (this obviously changes the balance of the game but it can be designed around)
05:07:55 <zzo38> Sirlin's "Codex" game has a different kind of solution: You cannot make any choices at all if it isn't your turn. This means that your opponent must declare blockers before you attack, instead of afterward.
05:09:10 <shachaf> i,i gain priority until end of turn
05:09:44 <ais523> zzo38: many games do that but it cuts down the tactical depth somewhat
05:12:07 <zzo38> Yes, I think you are correct.
05:13:21 <shachaf> ais523: Did you play Cale's favorite game, Prismata?
05:13:43 <zzo38> Although I mean even more than in Pokemon card, where sometimes something you do does require opponent to make choices on your turn; in Codex, the rules explicitly prohibit this, in order to allow long delays of several days between turns.
05:17:11 <zzo38> However in Magic: the Gathering still the computer UI can be done, such as if you assign a key combination for each step/phase of the turn, and then if you push that key it will pass priority until that phase/step if no other player does anything and no new information is revealed. (You can also just pass priority normally.) Can also assign one key to auto-play during a mana step or such.
05:17:19 <shachaf> Oh man, correspondence Magic: The Gathering
05:17:25 <shachaf> That sounds like a good game.
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05:29:23 <oerjan> correspondence chess boxing
05:32:43 <zzo38> How are you going to fight by correspondence?
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05:35:37 <\oren\> correspondence Sid Meier's Civilization
05:38:12 <Cale> oerjan: It's on the honour system. You get a letter in the mail and it has "Bxe5. Left hook."
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05:40:25 <shachaf> Keith Johnstone talks about games like mimed tug-of-war and slow-motion tag.
05:40:53 <shachaf> Sometimes people play those games and try to win, which is obviously pretty silly.
05:43:24 <zzo38> Perhaps after I fix the bug in MIXPC with LD1N instruction, I can also to add the overpunch mode. Some characters will no longer be valid MIX characters (or even valid Hollerith characters) when overpunched, so sometimes the result is lossy, especially since the file is using 8-bit characters rather than 12-bit characters.
05:46:53 <zzo38> (Overpunch mode is something I have not seen in any other MIX implementation. The other thing I have not seen in other MIX implementations is the support to connect to an actual printer for output (although MIXPC still supports print to file, too).)
05:48:20 <zzo38> The ability to split a partially read card deck might be another thing to add, too.
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07:07:54 <ais523> shachaf: OK, I wrote up what I have so far: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt
07:08:43 <ais523> this should hopefully be a framework that's general enough to do lots of interesting things but simple enough that it's clear how it works, even if a few of the rules look complex when written down
07:08:50 <ais523> I'm hoping it'd be more intuitive in actual play
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07:10:54 <zzo38> OK I will read too
07:13:28 <zzo38> Does the General have a different card back than the other cards?
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07:13:52 <zzo38> Or is it the same?
07:15:47 <ais523> I hadn't thought of that; within these rules it doesn't matter, so making it different might make it easier to find if it gets shuffled into a deck by mistake
07:16:26 <shachaf> You could make it a different size, too.
07:17:48 <zzo38> There are benefits in either case; it depends whether or not they should be drafted together. In Magic: the Gathering, conspiracies (which are purely optional) are drafted together with the rest of the cards.
07:18:32 <ais523> I assume that, if this game is distributed using booster packs, generals would show up in those occasionally
07:18:39 <ais523> although probably not very often as decks only need one
07:18:44 <ais523> that'd be a reason to make them the same size
07:19:42 <zzo38> I think it depends on whether or not you are going to draft them together, whether or not to make the back the same, although if they do come in the same pack that is a good enough reason to be the same size whether or not the back is the same.
07:20:38 <shachaf> I meant larger but I suppose you could make it smaller too.
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10:24:30 * b_jonas tries to read recent backlog of this channel. "I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic." and "Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells" wait, magma?
10:24:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: I can tell about the irc length limits if you want to know more details
10:27:19 <b_jonas> "<ais523> the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem / because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make" => yes, but I think you can still make a decent computer interface that allows players to rollback actions by other players and requires explicit confirm for irreversable events like revealing new information that the player doing the ac
10:28:08 <b_jonas> I think it could be made to work decently for M:tG, at least within Earthly communication lag.
10:28:50 <b_jonas> "<ais523> pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS?" => yes, but the list can change dynamically
10:29:33 <b_jonas> and the list isn't even made automatically public by the IRC infrastructure, so it's not quite clear if the docs on their homepage is complete or if the DNS entry for chat.freenode points to all servers (there may be non-public servers)
10:29:49 <b_jonas> they are likely complete most of the time, but you can't tell how up to date
10:31:17 <b_jonas> "<pikhq> A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned." => freenode has a length limit of 63 bytes on the hostname, above that it will display the ip or ipv6 address
10:32:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: one tricky part is that there's an extra byte in the received message for PRIVMSG and NOTICE messages that is only added if the client requests it with an option. It's an obsolate extension, but many clients still use it.
10:33:14 <b_jonas> "<pikhq> Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC?" => not globally accross all networks, not really. not with quakenet supporting channel names up to 200 bytes.
10:34:57 <b_jonas> on freenode, 356 bytes is the definitely safe limit, but you can go longer if you know some of the target name, your nick and username and hostname (but the server can change your nick asynchly for a nick collision)
10:35:41 <b_jonas> what's this thing ais523 was talking about? is he designing a new game?
10:37:27 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> [your rules] also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary;" => that sounds like a bad idea to me. aren't there more than one very powerful Jaces, and decks with 16 planeswalkers played competitively even in Standard?
11:27:31 <HackEgo> Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
11:28:01 <b_jonas> "<ais523> zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible" => what was the context for this? what is that set of rules?
11:29:54 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple." => wow. that's some serious future indeed. I'll probably buy a new mobile phone this year or next year, and it will be one I can charge with these USB charger thingies that I'm already using to charge my camera, bluetooth microphone headphone adapter, and electric razor.
11:30:08 <b_jonas> (although the camera requires the other kind of cable)
11:32:22 <shachaf> Your other things all use USB type-C?
11:33:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: the razor and the headphone adapter uses the same plug as most current mobile phones. I'm not sure if that's "type-C"
11:34:01 <b_jonas> my other things aren't charged by USB
11:36:48 <b_jonas> in particular, my mobile phone is charged by a round plug DC charger
11:37:04 <b_jonas> it has a USB port, but only for data, not charge
11:38:58 <b_jonas> the camera uses the other, slightly less common USB port, which some other cameras use too
11:43:23 <b_jonas> (the electric toothbrush doesn't use USB either, but that's probably a good thing)
11:46:44 <shachaf> USB type C is the future, man.
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11:47:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't believe it. people keep saying that the current standard is the future and I should buy into it now because everything and everyone will use only that in the future, but it often lasts only a few years or at most ten years. I'm older than to believe that.
11:48:26 <b_jonas> It's a great way to sell things, I admit that, and I've been tricked by it several times during my life.
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11:52:53 <b_jonas> you know what I'd like? a calendar that displays both the name of the month and the number of the month together.
11:53:06 <b_jonas> most calendars have just one or the other
11:53:22 <b_jonas> but I actually use both and need to know both
11:58:50 <\oren\> well english names have numbers in them, but the wrong numbers
12:03:03 <Hoolootwo> just use the discordian calendar, only 5 months to rememer
12:06:26 <APic> Aaand St. Tibb's Day, but only in Leapyears ☺
12:15:34 <b_jonas> @Hoolootwo: but I don't want to remember anything. that's the whole point. the calendar is there to remember everything instead of me.
12:16:37 <b_jonas> Even in our calendar, I'm generally only confused about the matching of names and numbers in three months now.
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12:51:20 <int-e> Yeah I'm noticing this too.
12:51:45 <int-e> Though L1 is still pretty empty right now.
12:52:18 <b_jonas> what? an empty L1 cache? that's a miracle
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12:53:11 <int-e> b_jonas: you're out
12:53:30 <int-e> http://icfp17.sigplan.org/room/icfp-2017-venue-l1
12:54:32 <int-e> Well at least I've seen SPJ from afar :P
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12:58:54 <int-e> and in any case it's filling up now
13:01:46 <Taneb> int-e: it may have been pretty empty but it may have in fact contained me
13:02:55 <Taneb> But L1 suddenly got very not empty at all
13:07:48 <Taneb> Although I somehow have a free seat either side of me
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13:49:37 <Taneb> int-e: are you here all week?
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14:46:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Natyre]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53028&oldid=51308 * Keymaker * (+47) Clarified one sentence.
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14:56:06 <int-e> Taneb: I'm leaving on Saturday
14:57:11 <int-e> ("back" in the sense that FSCD is what I'm registered for)
15:12:09 <b_jonas> ICFP contest full results are now available at https://icfpcontest2017.github.io/
15:12:24 <b_jonas> not too surprising since the prizes are given on the conference
15:13:48 <b_jonas> it's just almost full results, because they hold back the full results until the prize ceremony
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15:57:16 <mroman> how does stuff like if (x > z) || (q <= r) assemble on x86?
16:00:03 <int-e> in any case there is no single answer. mov rax, x; cmp rax, y; jg l; mov rax, q; cmp rax, r; jle l; jmp g; l: ... g: ... is the most naive way but no good compiler will do that.
16:00:29 <mroman> https://godbolt.org/g/Atht9E
16:01:27 <int-e> there's set<cc> <reg> where <cc> is a condition code (like g or le above) and r is a register
16:01:38 <mroman> but with -O3 it will be setg
16:01:44 <int-e> which doesn't jump, so doesn't mess up branch prediction.
16:02:14 <mroman> I was planning on adding equ, lt, lte, instructions
16:02:29 <mroman> which sets dst to 1 if a == b otherwise 0
16:02:43 <mroman> this way you don't need two instructions
16:03:18 <mroman> (I was also planning on having a cmp instruction)
16:03:25 <mroman> (which can be used for conditional instructions)
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16:50:12 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9sE2S8Pho
16:52:56 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is Wizards of the Coast who removed the planeswalker uniqueness rule. The new way seems logical and makes sense to me, although the change itself looks messy to me (retroactively changing planeswalkers to legendary).
16:53:56 <alercah> zzo38: are you talking about the M14 rule changes?
16:54:15 <alercah> because that did not retroactively change them to legendary
16:56:30 <zzo38> No I mean the future change
17:00:09 <int-e> but wasn't the legendary rule changed as well not too long ago?
17:03:28 <zzo38> Do you mean this change? https://yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes/dgm-m14/#D704.5k.
17:03:42 <zzo38> Or a more recent change?
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17:41:02 <zseri> I plan to drop the load (l) and store (v) commands of TEWNLSWAC
17:41:24 <b_jonas> let me look that up. that looks strange.
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17:41:50 <zseri> because I can emulate them using nested objects.
17:45:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't see where that happened. was this recent?
17:47:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: unless it's a change so recent it's not in the Comp Rules yet, it doesn't look to me like they changed planeswalkers to legendary. the changed the legend rule and the planeswalker uniqueness rule at some point so they only count within permanents controlled by one player, not across players, but planeswalkers still care about their 'walker type, not their name.
17:47:31 <b_jonas> whereas legendary permanents care about their name.
17:47:46 <alercah> b_jonas: they just announced it
17:48:12 <b_jonas> alercah: can you point to a source?
17:50:25 <b_jonas> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ixalan-mechanics
17:50:32 <b_jonas> no wonder I hadn't heard that yet
17:51:03 <b_jonas> how is that going to work in Modern with the 16-planeswalker decks? will we have a 12-Jace deck now? or did those always only work in Standard?
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17:53:16 <b_jonas> well, "Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret" still comfortably fits the type line with the new ugly font, so it's technically possible. it might even be better for understanding, and they probably know more about whether it turns Jace to too dangerous
17:53:59 <b_jonas> the fact that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is still banned in Modern probably helps
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17:59:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53029&oldid=53012 * Zseri * (-226) removed sdat stack (update with interpreter)
18:07:29 <zzo38> I did say it is a future rule, not a current one.
18:08:30 <zzo38> Still, that kind of change does seem messy to me, even though I think the new way is sensible.
18:11:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are only a few cards that care about non-creatures being legendary, such as one in Amonkhet and a few in Kamigawa.
18:12:07 <b_jonas> some of those cards get better, some worse.
18:12:21 <b_jonas> and yes, I know we have planeswalker creatures, but printed and animated after the fact
18:12:37 <b_jonas> ok, technically none of them are printed as a creature
18:12:51 <b_jonas> but one or two have a built-in ability to turn them to a creature
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19:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53030&oldid=53029 * Zseri * (+45) symbol vs variable
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19:12:16 * int-e has confirmed the existence of Taneb (though this is really a zero knowledge proof)
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19:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53031&oldid=53030 * Zseri * (+38) /* Binary Commands */
19:19:17 <* Taneb> conversely has the beginnings of an existence proof for int-e
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19:52:22 <mroman> please stop thinking I'm not human.
20:02:04 <int-e> mroman: don't be a bot, have a cookie!
20:07:54 <mroman> My transaminases are elevated.
20:07:58 <mroman> they don't really know why.
20:08:06 <mroman> but it usually indicates some damage to the liver.
20:09:58 <mroman> thus it might not be the liver failing
20:10:09 <mroman> it might be something else failing that just happens to also punch the liver in the nuts
20:10:51 <zzo38> I think that the rule about maximum health being reduced to also reduce current health should be clarified.
20:18:12 <ais523> mroman: probably the TCG work-in-progress that I posted here last night
20:18:18 <zzo38> Also I think can be simplify by the manoeuvres not giving name for each action also, and instead to have something like "manoeuvre name: negative resources, source -> destination, positive resources: action"
20:18:19 <ais523> beacuse shachaf's been bugging me about it for months
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20:18:44 <ais523> zzo38: I like giving things names because it makes it possible for cards to talk about them
20:19:00 <ais523> one big problem that Magic had was not differentiating between, say, fire and lightning spells mechanically early on
20:19:06 <zzo38> For example "Start: hand -> ready, logistics 5: End the turn."
20:19:09 <ais523> meaning that they can't draw a mechanical distinction nowadays
20:19:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, I have mention that a few days ago. they don't have a damage type system.
20:19:48 <ais523> massive in particular is something that things probably want to care about
20:19:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: what was this rules thing you were talking about earlier?
20:20:00 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but the manoeuvres and aspects still themself have names
20:20:21 <ais523> also that manoeuvre in particular would make it possible to end the turn with a card on the tactics track; the rules handle that state but it's something I'd imagine you'd do rarely if at all
20:20:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: "massive: end your rurn"
20:20:50 <ais523> basically, this game doesn't have summoning sickness
20:21:09 <zzo38> ais523: I do mean "end your turn", and doesn't the rules say you can't end any turn if there are any tactics?
20:21:11 <ais523> so the easiest way to make something that's ready to defend as soon as it's played, but can't attack as soon as it's played, is to end the turn when it becomes ready
20:21:24 <ais523> zzo38: not via the normal methods
20:21:30 <ais523> but I assume rules on the cards override the rules of the game
20:23:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: what game is this again? is it the one you're planning that I don't know much about?
20:24:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: it doesn't even have a name yet
20:24:20 <ais523> here are my notes: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt
20:24:47 <wob_jonas> is it a trading card game? if so, then we can just call it Feather: TCG; or Feather: Collectible Card Game.
20:26:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: I was also trying to figure out if I could make something of a toy TCG, but I quickly realized I'm bad at designing entirely new games or writing new stories, I should just stick to analyzing existing games and existing stories.
20:26:03 <zzo38> Possibly, can then to write the Haskell program (or some other programming language) to make an implementation on computer, and can be made literate programming so that this is the rule document it explain the rule including by computer program too.
20:26:15 <wob_jonas> I did come up with a few mechanics, but they don't really work together.
20:26:21 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't think it has anything to do with Feather
20:26:24 <zzo38> wob_jonas: What did you come up with?
20:27:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: probably the most useful idea I had is that when creatures attack you (which normally happens once per turn) you get to evade (escape, run away from) one for free by default.
20:27:51 <wob_jonas> in that case they don't deal combat damage to you, but you can also do this if you also don't want to deal combat damage to them
20:28:49 <wob_jonas> and then there can be a ton of abilities that modify this, both on creatures (fast creatures you can't evade, slow creatures so you can evade any number of slow creatures or up to one non-slow creature) or abilities affecting the player (boots of speed to evade an extra creature per combat)
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20:30:21 <ais523> `card-by-name darksteel myr
20:30:30 <HackEgo> Darksteel Myr \ 3 \ Artifact Creature -- Myr \ 0/1 \ Indestructible (Damage and effects that say "destroy" don't destroy this creature. If its toughness is 0 or less, it's still put into its owner's graveyard.) \ SOM-U
20:31:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: being able to cancel one attack a turn (unless it's hard to stop) is apparently worth 3 mana
20:32:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: in M:tG. I'm not saying this rule in context of M:tG
20:32:25 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, I was just thinking "M:tG has done something similar"
20:32:35 <ais523> although Darksteel Myr doesn't have defender, which makes it better if you increase its power somehow
20:33:30 <ais523> `card-by-name maze of ith
20:33:31 <HackEgo> Maze of Ith \ Land \ {T}: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn. \ DK-U, EMA-R, ME4-R, V12-M
20:33:54 <ais523> that also has a similar effect, although IIRC it's normally considered broken
20:34:13 <ais523> (as you can see from the set of sets it's printed in!)
20:34:15 <wob_jonas> If you asked that in advance, the cheapest I'd have known is four mana, for Trap Runner (which works on fliers and even unblockable creatures by the way) or Uncle Istvan (a very old pseudo-indestructible creature)
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20:42:50 <wob_jonas> ah right. Order of the Stars. that works well enough for this in practice
20:43:20 <ais523> `card-by-name order of the stars
20:43:47 <wob_jonas> that's straight two mana and is good against any creature it can block
20:44:13 <HackEgo> Beloved Chaplain \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ Protection from creatures \ OD-U
20:44:13 <HackEgo> Order of the Stars \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 0/1 \ Defender (This creature can't attack.) \ As Order of the Stars enters the battlefield, choose a color. \ Order of the Stars has protection from the chosen color. \ GPT-U
20:44:15 <wob_jonas> I didn't know about that one. I used Inviolability, which is an aura version.
20:44:35 <ais523> you could make the argument for mother of runes, actually
20:44:39 <wob_jonas> haha, its flavor text is actually “Nomad and Nantuko, eagle and elephant; all the birds and beasts are charmed by his quiet dignity.”
20:44:44 <ais523> she can block a creature, then give herself protection from it after the block
20:44:53 <ais523> although that's hardly the most broken thing you can do with that card
20:45:00 <wob_jonas> the quiet dignity in that quote and its art is in nice contrast with Inviolability, which has the opposite flavor
20:45:43 <ais523> also I don't recognise those set codes
20:45:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: not "then give protection". they all already have protection almost all the time.
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20:46:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: I was talking about mother of runes
20:46:07 <ais523> `card-by-name mother of runes
20:46:08 <wob_jonas> GPT is Guildpact, from Ravnica block
20:46:09 <HackEgo> Mother of Runes \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ {T}: Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn. \ UL-U, CMD-U, EMA-R, DDO-U
20:46:30 <wob_jonas> oh right, that's the expensive one for one mana
20:46:42 <wob_jonas> I didn't pick up when you mentioned that
20:46:44 <ais523> oh, OD must be Odyssey
20:46:58 <ais523> mother of runes is probably the best creature costing {W}
20:47:16 <wob_jonas> I don't think it's the best, but it might be close to
20:47:34 <wob_jonas> there's a lot of competition for best
20:47:38 <ais523> what do you think is better?
20:48:02 <wob_jonas> some environments have longer matches with many creatures, in those the Soul Sisters are probably better
20:50:56 <wob_jonas> and I suspect the best creature costing {W} would be more expensive in money than what Mother of the Runes cost for uncommon
21:08:29 <wob_jonas> OH NO more double-faced cards with a land on the back face and a new pair of symbols identifying which face is the front and which is the back. STOP THAT, Wizards. You shouldn't have printed the first one either.
21:08:47 <zzo38> I don't like double face cards
21:09:10 <int-e> wait what does that do to the sleeve market?
21:09:56 <wob_jonas> and the icon for the back face is even fucking the same as the land icon on Future Sight timeshifted futuristic border cards. That's even worse.
21:11:28 <wob_jonas> (Ok, technically the icon isn't exactly the same, but it is very similar.)
21:11:55 <wob_jonas> (Maybe it is exactly the same. I can't tell from this low resolution.)
21:12:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: Wizards have a perpetual problem trying to identify which side of a DFC is which, in an objective way that can be written into the rules
21:12:46 <wob_jonas> it has a reminder text on the back side that says it's the back side
21:12:54 <ais523> I think that's why they have the reminder text
21:13:36 <int-e> so what do the rules say about faking a reminder text?
21:13:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah. it doesn't help that they keep messing up the Gatherer, so very often double-faced cards (and flip cards and split cards) show up wrong in Gatherer itself. If even they don't know, how should I know?
21:13:58 <ais523> that said, I can't imagine that the reminder text is the actual rules-defined way to tell the sides apart
21:14:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, it's probably not. but that's not a problem here
21:14:24 <ais523> wob_jonas: M:tgO sometimes has a bug where it allows half a split card to exist on its own
21:14:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: my problem is that if you happen to never look at the FRONT of the card, you might not realize the card is double-faced, and think it's a single face land
21:15:12 <ais523> you'd notice when you tried to put it into a deck
21:15:30 <ais523> or do people sleeve cards without ever looking at the other side?
21:16:20 <int-e> oh god, there are sanctioned proxies ("checklist cards")?!
21:16:35 <ais523> int-e: they're not really proxies, they look nothing like the original
21:16:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I probably do sometimes sleeve cards that way when making a deck, but I already know more or less what cards I have in my collection and would know if I had a double-sided card (I have zero. I also have no flip cards. I do have a few split cards.)
21:16:50 <ais523> their only purpose is to have a normal back so that they can represent the position of a DFC in a deck without giving it away, even if you don't use sleeves
21:17:49 <int-e> ais523: they are proxies in the literal sense; they stand for the card indicated on the checklist.
21:17:57 <ais523> btw, part of the purpose of the reserves in my game is so that if you want to do something DFC-like, you can just fetch the other card from the reserves
21:18:09 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, it's sort of backwards. during a game, the checklist cards are the normal cards you use most of the time, and you can use the double-faced to represent the card in public zones. when buying or submitting a deck or drafting, that's when you need the double-faced card to be allowed to use it, and the checklist cards are penny cards you alw
21:18:36 <mroman> this channel is full of nerds.
21:18:52 <ais523> they're a combination token supply and sideboard and back-DFC-face and tuner for tunable cards (i.e. I'm envisaging cards that can affect opponent's cards only if you have a copy in your own reserves, so you can choose to hate out specific cards)
21:19:06 <HackEgo> 102) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 482) <elliott> we need more films aimed at the lucrative irc nerd demographic
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21:21:14 <zzo38> ais523: Ah, OK I suppose that can work, I like that
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21:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53032&oldid=53011 * Stefan-hering * (+167)
21:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53033&oldid=53032 * Stefan-hering * (-48)
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21:35:44 <int-e> mroman: great, now I'm wondering what the implementation limit of the number of users in a channel in ircd-seven is
21:36:05 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't think there's a strict limit for that.
21:36:16 <int-e> (how else would an IRC channel be "full"?)
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21:38:38 <wob_jonas> int-e: but in practice the biggest legitimate channels in freenode top out below 2000 joined, and those are moderated the most quickly so there won't be much flood on them, so I don't think any individual big channel would cause a problem
21:39:07 <wob_jonas> especially because those less than 2000 nicks will be distributed decently around the more than 10 servers
21:46:49 <fizzie> int-e: If configured with --enable-small-net, 256; otherwise 32768.
21:48:04 <fizzie> Assuming MEMBER_HEAP_SIZE measures that. It might be something else. But the BAN_HEAP_SIZE sounded reasonable for a banlist size limit.
21:49:09 <fizzie> Never mind. Apparently that's not the limit, that's just the allocation block size.
21:49:55 <wob_jonas> fizzie: you could ask #freenode if you want to know for sure. they're usually helpful about these sorts of IRC software questions, as long as it's software used on freenode
21:50:05 <wob_jonas> I mean server and services software
21:50:07 <fizzie> I like digging into code more.
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> I've done it myself a few times, but usually I just ask #freenode
21:50:37 <wob_jonas> (or TIAS for things where that's possible)
21:51:09 <wob_jonas> (but I can't really test for what inter-server race conditions are possible, especially not ones that require a netsplit at the right time)
21:54:06 <fizzie> No explicit limit in the same place (conf_channel_table) the ban list is configured, so maybe there isn't a limit. Anyway, it's kind of implicitly limited by the number of clients of the network.
21:55:32 <wob_jonas> (nor can I easily check for what the longest possible hostname is, so I just had to ask that)
21:55:46 <wob_jonas> (I'm not going to set up reverse DNS entries for that)
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22:33:17 <fizzie> Hm. The wiki's started being intermittently slow again, at least according to the graphs. (It was surprisingly snappy for a while after the CaC downtime.)
22:34:58 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/esolangs-response-time.png
22:35:59 <shachaf> It looks like it's not just the wiki but everything?
22:36:04 <ais523> shachaf: so what do you think of my TCG rules so far?
22:36:37 <shachaf> ais523: I read them but it's hard to see how some of the rules would play out without examples.
22:36:52 <shachaf> Of course those are a lot more work.
22:36:55 <ais523> I have a general idea in mind but still don't have the details pinned far enough down that I can make examples
22:37:03 <ais523> it may be that some of the rules would have to change
22:37:07 <shachaf> It sounds like this game is meant to be played both printed and on the computer?
22:37:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: well sure, it's clearly not final
22:37:59 <shachaf> There are a lot of design choices that you can only realistically make in software.
22:38:55 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's a good question. what are the edge conditions you're designing for? a collectible/trading card game (as in, players can buy cards and choose which ones to put in their decks, but the game tries to be such that you won't have a linearly more powerful deck by just buying more powerful cards), two players making separate decks from their
22:38:55 <wob_jonas> collection or draft independently,
22:39:06 <ais523> one of the design choices was to have status and current health as the only tracked values needed to explain the gamestate
22:39:30 <ais523> (this is the reason that "overhealing" increases combat damage, as that's a common sort of semipermanent change to want to make)
22:39:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: also is it supposed to be playable with just the paper cards and not much other tools, esp. no computer,
22:39:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure about "what'sitcalled", but sure, yes, it's generally slow. Though a lot of the non-"wiki" things are still wiki-related, that's just filtering to actual MediaWiki page loads.
22:39:51 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, it's meant to be playable with just cards and counters for current health
22:40:04 <ais523> it's also meant to be much simpler than M:tG UI-wise on a computer
22:40:21 <shachaf> Priority is pretty tricky to implement well on a computer, I imagine.
22:40:37 <ais523> right, priority here passes much less often than M:tG
22:40:47 <ais523> it's pretty much entirely "do you want to respond to this?"
22:40:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't really see why this would be much simpler UI-wise than M:tG, but obviously it depends on the details like what cards you have
22:41:14 <ais523> and only one person having priority at any given time means that there's no arguments over who plays a card "first"
22:41:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: think about one player going to combat in M:tG, when the other player has an instant in their hand that they can play
22:42:01 <ais523> explaining how that works even in M:tG in paper is complicated, and in fact there had to be a rules change recently due to people exploiting the nature of the priority passing rules
22:42:15 <ais523> and on a computer, you either have to click OK a lot of times or configure "always yield" settings for the various parts of combat
22:43:36 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC it was a change to exactly what happened if someone said "go to combat"
22:43:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's because the current UI sucks. you could have a better UI that allowed you to continue specifying your actions assuming the other players use the default until either (a) you deliberately want to wait for other players to confirm they do the default to avoid revealing info or (b) the game would have to reveal you some info that you do
22:43:54 <wob_jonas> n't already know, eg. drawing a card.
22:44:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: if you play the game that way, which is sort of similar to what happens when you play on paper, then there's much less messing with priority.
22:44:38 <wob_jonas> if the other player decides to not do just the default actions, then the game rolls back to the point where he first doesn't do the default actions.
22:45:10 <wob_jonas> this is implementable by computer, and I think it would be easier to use and learn for the players than the current system.
22:45:29 <ais523> shachaf: see a) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/24/policy-changes-for-amonkhet/ (from "Communication" onwards), b) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/27/how-to-think-about-the-new-combat-shortcut/
22:45:36 <wob_jonas> (it still only works if you have no more lag than earth-mooon sized ones between the players)
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22:45:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: you might want to see those too
22:45:59 <wob_jonas> I think I've heard of them, but let me check them
22:46:03 <ais523> it's really good evidence of quite how complicated M:tG gets in corner cases to stop people pulling priority scams on each other
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22:56:19 <ais523> hmm, that second article I linked seems to think there's a card named "Grizzly Bear"
22:56:59 <wob_jonas> ais: no, it seems to think "Grizzly Bear" is a reasonable shortcut to name a creature
22:57:34 <wob_jonas> which it is I think, although it's sort of moot because that card is more an example there than a real card used in tournament
22:57:41 <ais523> but in that case "attack with grizzly bears" is ambiguous as it's implied that there are two of them, so are you attacking with one or both?
22:57:57 <ais523> although I guess that it'd be obvious if they didn't have vigilance
22:58:02 <wob_jonas> I use such simple well-known cards as examples in rules questions too, even though I don't actually play Grizzly Bears in my decks (I do have that card in my collection)
22:58:44 <ais523> I think I own one as well? but it isn't a very good card
22:59:20 <wob_jonas> I own Flashcoat Bears which is practically always better, unless you have Petroglyphs
22:59:41 <HackEgo> Ashcoat Bear \ 1G \ Creature -- Bear \ 2/2 \ Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.) \ TSP-C
23:00:45 <wob_jonas> But everyone knows about that card, which is why it's great for rules examples
23:01:10 <ais523> `card-by-name kalonian tusker
23:01:11 <HackEgo> Kalonian Tusker \ GG \ Creature -- Beast \ 3/3 \ M14-U
23:01:20 <ais523> still not all that good, but better in a green deck
23:02:37 <ais523> I'm busy looking through all the 3/3s for 2
23:02:48 <ais523> smuggler's copter is probably the best (and indeed, got banned in standard)
23:02:53 <ais523> `card-by-name smuggler's copter
23:02:54 <HackEgo> Smuggler's Copter \ 2 \ Artifact -- Vehicle \ 3/3 \ Flying \ Whenever Smuggler's Copter attacks or blocks, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card. \ Crew 1 (Tap any number of creatures you control with total power 1 or more: This Vehicle becomes an artifact creature until end of turn.) \ KLD-R
23:03:20 <ais523> the drawback turned out not to be nearly large enough
23:05:06 <wob_jonas> yeah, but that one is relatively new. If you have the double green mana, back in my days Elvish Warrior or Simic Guildmage were the most decent choices, then later we got Garruk's Companion.
23:05:28 <wob_jonas> If you want only one colored mana, there's also Stonewood Invoker and later Woodland Changeling which are slightly better than the bears.
23:05:54 <ais523> the guildmage cycle is one of the things that started jading me to Magic
23:05:56 <wob_jonas> (Simic Guildmage and Stonewood Invoker and Woodland Changeling are elves)
23:06:12 <ais523> I thought "a 2/2 with no drawbacks for {R/B}{R/B} is bigger than those colours normally get"
23:09:07 <wob_jonas> it was at that time. these days we at least have 2/2 with no drawbacks for RR
23:09:47 <wob_jonas> And Black Knight always existed, and was printed in large numbers, but I don't think there were many other choices for a 2/2 for BB with no drawbacks
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23:12:09 <ais523> `card-by-name ash zealot
23:12:10 <HackEgo> Ash Zealot \ RR \ Creature -- Human Warrior \ 2/2 \ First strike, haste \ Whenever a player casts a spell from a graveyard, Ash Zealot deals 3 damage to that player. \ RTR-R
23:12:11 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, not a game rules change.
23:12:20 <ais523> shachaf: tournament rules change
23:12:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: that one does have a drawback of course
23:12:56 <ais523> OK, technically speaking ash zealot has a drawback? but it's hardly ever going to come up (especially if you build a deck accordingly
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23:18:32 <wob_jonas> it's from RTR, that's lots of years later than ravnica with the guildmages
23:21:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, maybe you're sort of right and something like those rules might avoid some of the priority shenanigans. but of course the cost is that you don't yet have twenty years of history you have to be compatible with, or even twenty years of carefully designed future cards with enough new thing each year to keep players interested.
23:21:43 <wob_jonas> but yes, some of the priority problems may have been avoided by designing against them from the start.
23:21:54 <wob_jonas> still, I don't think it's that big of a difference.
23:24:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: I believe this sort of the priority problem is the #1 reason that online Magic isn't more popular
23:28:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: is it? I thought it was mostly because people don't want to buy both paper cards and online cards, and paper is the obvious choice
23:29:11 <wob_jonas> I imagine a few years into the future cards would have unique identifiers printed on it (unique per copy) so you can easily load them into your online account, but even that solves only half of the problem.
23:29:15 <ais523> wob_jonas: compare Hearthstone to Duels of the Planeswalkers
23:30:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: M:tG is old. it started when online wasn't really possible yet. so the first people started in paper, and most people start playing with their friends, and so matching their friends' choice of paper vs online.
23:31:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: Hearthstone started in 2014 and was designed as an online game in first place
23:31:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: also the original rules weren't very thought out
23:31:29 <ais523> a lot of progress has been made at trying to tame the chaos
23:31:50 <wob_jonas> M:tG is the most popular TCG only because it was the first one
23:32:00 <wob_jonas> and I'm not even sure it's still the most popular
23:32:22 <ais523> it's apparently had a lot of growth recently
23:32:28 <ais523> despite doing its best to drive away all the existing players
23:32:48 <ais523> from BFZ to Amonkhet, they appear to have had no idea how to balance the game
23:33:02 <ais523> and had to make emergency changes to their internal processes in an attempt to bring things back under control
23:33:12 <shachaf> I haven't played any of those sets.
23:33:25 <shachaf> Has it gotten much worse than before?
23:33:40 <ais523> there was the famous incident a while back when they declared (on the banned and restricted announcement day) that they weren't banning a card, then had to emergency ban it a few days later
23:34:20 <ais523> shachaf: we've had four Standard bans over the last year or so (Reflector Mage, Smuggler's Copter, (Emrakul, the Promised End), Felidar Guardian)
23:34:34 <ais523> Magic hardly ever bans cards from Standard, when they do it's normally a sign that they really screwed up
23:34:54 <ais523> as it's a) a pretty small format, making it easier to catch problems in it, b) one of the two main formats they focus on when balancing
23:35:03 <ais523> BFZ block additionally managed to break Modern
23:35:06 <ais523> and lead to bans there, too
23:37:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: anyway, many M:tG interface problems are a consequence of the way rules changed over time
23:37:47 <ais523> originally you had to float mana before playing spells, which is simple enough
23:37:59 <ais523> but people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell, so the rules changed to let you generate mana then too
23:38:12 <ais523> and now we have a situation where floating mana exists but is rarely used, and spells have two sequences for playing them
23:38:25 <ais523> it'd have been a lot neater to just not have a mana pool from the start, but it's too late to change now
23:39:36 <wob_jonas> yes, I can sort of see why that would complicate the interface
23:44:56 <shachaf> When I learned the rules of the game in 2013, I thought you always had to use mana from your pool to cast spell. It seemed simple enough.
23:45:04 <ais523> shachaf: that hasn't been true for ages
23:45:24 <shachaf> Eventually I learned that you can announce the spell first, and then activate mana abilities to pay for it.
23:45:38 <shachaf> And that there are all sorts of complexities there.
23:45:48 <shachaf> But now you say that originally it worked the way I thought?
23:46:14 <shachaf> Why did they ever change it? That's such a straightforward way to handle it.
23:46:16 <ais523> shachaf: in early Magic, yes
23:46:21 <ais523> and because people kept doing it wrong
23:46:30 <shachaf> "people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell" -- that's definitely not an excuse.
23:46:44 <ais523> the Magic designers/developers/rules team seem to think that it's better to change the rules to allow for human nature, than to try to fight it
23:46:47 <shachaf> You can just say that it's a shortcut or whatever you want that has the same effect. No need to make a big rules change for it.
23:46:53 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the mana is in the pool, but during the process of casting a spell or activating the ability, you get a chance to activate mana abilities (with a few rare exceptions) if the spell or ability needs mana payment
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23:47:07 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Yes, I know how it works now.
23:47:23 <ais523> shachaf: another big reason is cards that let people make payments unexpectedly
23:47:30 <ais523> `card-by-name rhystic study
23:47:30 <HackEgo> Rhystic Study \ 2U \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may draw a card unless that player pays {1}. \ PR-C
23:47:43 <ais523> but the rhystic cycle generally
23:48:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: also when they added that rule, it didn't make the rules too complicated, because a few actions demanded mana payment by a player other than the one who plays the ability, those existed ages ago, and they already had to support activating mana abilities to pay mana.
23:48:02 <ais523> "opponents can pay {1} or something good happens to you" is way more powerful if the opponent had to keep {1} floating all the time
23:48:11 <ais523> under the current rules, they can just generate the {1} on the spot
23:48:23 <shachaf> A better reason would be that there are various non-mana payments that you make as you announce the spell/ability, and that there's no reason for mana to be different.
23:50:04 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that doesn't sound like a good reason to me. you'd still make the mana payments during announcing the spell or ability, only now you can also activate most mana abilities (which generate most of your mana) at that time
23:50:23 <shachaf> I kind of like that one interaction that these rules make possible.
23:50:49 <shachaf> `card-by-name wall of roots
23:50:50 <HackEgo> Wall of Roots \ 1G \ Creature -- Plant Wall \ 0/5 \ Defender \ Put a -0/-1 counter on Wall of Roots: Add {G} to your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn. \ MI-C, TSP-S, ARC-C
23:51:35 <shachaf> If you had a spell that costs {G} and as an additional cost requires you to sacrifice a creature, and you have a Wall of Roots with four -0/-1 counters on it, you could use it to pay for the spell.
23:51:51 <ais523> this is arguably a problem for the learnability of Magic
23:52:01 <wob_jonas> ugh no. it generates lots of really ugly interactions, mostly because you can do heavy effects like moving cards between zones for the cost of a mana ability, and that can in turn immediately generate even heavier effects, including players leaving the game. it's totally rare, but shouldn't be possible.
23:52:06 <ais523> as many such tricks work and many such tricks don't and it can need an intricate knowledge of the rules to work out which is which
23:52:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: you're reminding me of the tricks you can use in multiplayer games to pick on players via conceding at specific moments
23:52:46 <wob_jonas> I think the idea that a player can lose immediately, rather than only the next time state-based effects are checked, is a bad idea, complicates multiplayer rules a whole lot
23:52:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but it can happen without conceding
23:53:05 <ais523> some playgroups actually have a house rule that you have to wait until the stack is empty before conceding, in order to prevent that happening
23:53:19 <wob_jonas> from indirect effects by a mana ability
23:53:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: I assume this involves replacement effects? things like paying your last point of life aren't fast enough
23:53:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: uh, I don't quite remember.
23:53:50 <wob_jonas> maybe I'm just stupid here and conceding is the only way
23:54:24 <wob_jonas> but even then, without players losing, there are rules patching around the problem that activating mana abilities may require you to reveal new information like drawing a card. those information are hidden because of extra rules.
23:55:22 <HackEgo> Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ As Lich enters the battlefield, you lose life equal to your life total. \ You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ Whenever you're dealt damage, sacrifice that many nontoken permanents. If you can't, you lose the game. \ When Lich is put into a graveyard
23:55:29 <ais523> oh, that's a triggered ability
23:55:36 <ais523> I think there's a card like that where it's a replacement ability
23:55:40 <wob_jonas> (the other problem is of course that stupid Wurm.)
23:55:41 <ais523> so it lets the game loss happen at mana ability speed
23:55:45 <ais523> `card-by-name nefarious lich
23:55:46 <HackEgo> Nefarious Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ If damage would be dealt to you, exile that many cards from your graveyard instead. If you can't, you lose the game. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ When Nefarious Lich leaves the battlefield, you lose the game. \ OD-R
23:55:54 <ais523> right, that's a replacement ability
23:56:22 <ais523> although I'm not sure offhand that you can deal damage at mana ability speed
23:56:26 <ais523> original lich is triggered
23:57:13 <HackEgo> Adarkar Wastes \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}: Add {W} or {U} to your mana pool. Adarkar Wastes deals 1 damage to you. \ IA-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R
23:58:16 <ais523> oh, I thought that cycle went via a trigger somehow
23:58:21 <ais523> but it doesn't, so that works I think
23:58:25 <wob_jonas> that's the more popular title, the shocklands
23:59:05 <HackEgo> Watery Grave \ Land -- Island Swamp \ ({T}: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool.) \ As Watery Grave enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you don't, Watery Grave enters the battlefield tapped. \ RAV-R, GTC-R, EXP-M
23:59:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: I came across the painlands first
23:59:23 <wob_jonas> and it makes you pay life, which won't kill you
23:59:29 <ais523> but misremembered them as working like city of brass
23:59:47 <ais523> (which would be very awkward wording, so I'm not surprised they don't!)
23:59:51 <ais523> `card-by-name city of brass
23:59:51 <HackEgo> City of Brass \ Land \ Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ AN-U, CH-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, MMA-R, ME4-R
23:59:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, the shocklands are in ravnica, and they're so popular because they have basic land types, and there are search lands searching for lands with basic land types
00:00:09 <ais523> I know why the shocklands are good
00:00:53 <wob_jonas> whereas I started playing when Dissension was already out, which is why I don't notice that those weren't first
00:01:12 <wob_jonas> sure, I do have some idea about earlier sets, but often forget
00:01:15 <ais523> I started playing with 9th edition
00:01:19 <ais523> and stopped early into lorwyn
00:01:49 <ais523> (i.e. 9th, ravnica block, coldsnap, time spiral block, 10th, and a bit of lorwyn)
00:03:04 <wob_jonas> (I know it was Dissension, not just Guildpact, because the person who introduced me brought Sky Hussar. I have seen people play M:tG before, but I haven't played.)
00:03:36 <ais523> dissension is an odd place to start, really
00:03:59 <ais523> one "problem" with the original ravnica block is that it only really makes sense as a combined entity, rather than being playable set-by-set
00:04:07 <ais523> although dragon's maze is even worse in that respect
00:04:18 <wob_jonas> Coldsnap may have been out, but only very recently, so I have only seen cards from it a month or two later when I bought my first cards, which was the Coldsnap black-blue theme deck.
00:04:33 <ais523> it did have one of the most intriguing names ever, though, people were asking for dragon's maze spoilers during rtr, rather than asking for the next set as usual
00:04:43 <wob_jonas> In retrospect, the black-blue Coldsnap theme deck is a bad one as a beginner product, but obviously I didn't know that.
00:04:51 <ais523> also I don't hate Coldsnap as much as most people do
00:05:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't hate Coldsnap, I'm just saying it was not good as a first set of cards to buy.
00:06:10 <wob_jonas> But at this point it doesn't matter.
00:06:12 <ais523> I think people don't like it because it sucked to draft
00:06:27 <ais523> although people are bad at figuring out what draft environments are good until Wizards has already stopped supporting them
00:06:30 <wob_jonas> I have so many cards that one theme deck doesn't matter.
00:06:56 <ais523> this is probably what lead to the balance issues, Wizards deciding that trying to balance the sets carefully was a waste of money because they move onto the next set anyway before it's figured out
00:07:08 <wob_jonas> "supporting" as in you can no longer buy boxes cheap, or only that they are no longer played much in tournaments?
00:07:21 <ais523> they both happen around the same time, probably not coincidentally
00:07:54 <ais523> but when I first started playing Magic, I was under the impression that the game had been continuously refined and optimized over time and would always stay much the same
00:07:55 <wob_jonas> wait, it lead to the balance issues which time? I don't think that's happened the last time. It may have happened back ten years ago.
00:08:09 <ais523> seeing the name "ninth edition" made me think "ooh, this has had a lot of work put into it"
00:08:29 <ais523> but it turns out it's actually a game where they randomly change things every few months to keep it fresh, whether the old things worked or not
00:08:29 <wob_jonas> hehe... yes, that's a bit misleading because the second edition is exactly the same as the first
00:09:24 <ais523> it starts ABUR4 so I assume alpha and beta are collectively the first edition
00:09:28 <wob_jonas> but then, core sets from ninth to M12 did have a lot of good work put into refining it, perhaps more so then the block expansions
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00:09:41 <wob_jonas> yes, AB are collectively the first edition
00:10:00 <wob_jonas> it's silly but they won't change the numbers now
00:10:07 <ais523> wob_jonas: well tenth was definitely an attempt to mix things up
00:10:09 <wob_jonas> because the numbers are printed on the core sets from fifth to tenth
00:10:11 <ais523> `card-by-name lightning bolt
00:10:12 <HackEgo> Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, MED-C, PD2-C
00:10:27 <ais523> wait, it was in M10 /and/ M11? I can't be reading that correctly
00:10:51 <alercah> M10 was when they shook things up
00:11:01 <ais523> one problem with numerical core sets is that it's hard to remember which ones are which
00:11:04 <wob_jonas> I like tenth, but mostly because of nostalgy. M10 might actually be a better set, even with all the new cards.
00:11:15 <alercah> tenth was the core set before M10
00:11:25 <ais523> right, I know it went tenth, M10
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00:13:12 <wob_jonas> what I don't like about the current direction magic is heading to is that they keep making changes that amount to printing more and more distinct cards per year. this started at approximately coldsnap or tenth edition. they always give very nice sugar-coated explanations of why the particular change is good, but the gross number of new cards per ye
00:13:12 <wob_jonas> ar always keeps going up, almost never down.
00:13:41 <wob_jonas> and some of the explanations are even kind of mutually contradictory.
00:14:45 <wob_jonas> it's like that time many years ago when they first raised bus prices to encourage people to travel by train which is cheaper to run, then later they raised train prizes to harmonize mass transport prizes and not disadvantage people who live in places with no train.
00:15:50 <wob_jonas> (this was before the time when they raised the prices of trains that stop at fewer stations, but basically every train stops at fewer stations, so you don't have a real choice. that one was much more obvious because they did it in a single step.)
00:16:03 <ais523> a while back in Birmingham, the bus and train companies went through a phase of repeatedly undercutting each other by 10p
00:16:06 <ais523> alas, it couldn't last
00:16:42 <wob_jonas> this is between cities, not within Budapest, in case that's not clear
00:17:23 <ais523> intercity train travel in the UK is very expensive except when it's randomly much cheaper
00:17:41 <ais523> coach travel can be very reasonable but it's slower
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00:19:16 <wob_jonas> it's always expensive in Sweden, but there are surprising price differences between different types of trains and buses on the same line, depending on at least whether you forfeit your right to refund your ticket, and whether the price for reservations increases dynamically by time like with international airplane tickets. both of those categories
00:19:48 <wob_jonas> there's also a difference between trains where you need a seat reservation versus no, which is a distinction that exists in Hungary but very often you only have one of those choices
00:19:51 <ais523> most train lines in the UK have four price categories: anytime, off-peak, super off-peak, advance
00:20:13 <ais523> having a reservation is orthogonal to this (although it'd be unusual to get an advance ticket without a reservation)
00:20:15 <wob_jonas> this is partly because south-Sweden is big and has multiple big cities and big airplanes, so there's a lot more train and bus travel than in Hungary
00:20:44 <ais523> although, many train companies, when selling advance tickets, just give you a ticket saying you're guaranteed a seat but don't allocate any specific seat, to save the trouble of putting the "reserved" signs onto the seats
00:21:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, even though you get a seat number, in practice seat reservations work that way on trains in Hungary too (and often in cinemas)
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00:22:22 <wob_jonas> that is, most passengers and the controllers don't care about the seat numbers unless there's a dispute between passengers
00:23:45 <wob_jonas> this is unlike airplane tickets or theatre tickets, where people only swap places locally among nearby ones in the same row or when the airplane stewards ask, in theatres because they're more full (a movie is cheap to repeat multiple times for the cinema) and in airplanes partly because of security reasons the airlines insist
00:25:11 <wob_jonas> also for some reason many people seem to seem to consider different seats in an airplane to have different values, so much that some airlines even sell the right to choose your seat at an extra price and a varying price depending on the position,
00:25:45 <alercah> seats with extra legroom fetch a premium usually
00:25:50 <wob_jonas> whereas on the trains where you can get a seat reservation, usually all seats are equivalent (this is sometimes not true for some trains with no reservation, because those are lower comfort)
00:26:49 <wob_jonas> alercah: yeah, but then I don't want extra legroom seat on airplanes because those are usually at the front row so you can't keep your luggage at your feet
00:27:11 <wob_jonas> the extra legroom is probably worth more on longer flights though, on which I rarely fly
00:27:50 <wob_jonas> on long bus trips, I'll certainly take the extra legroom any time, but that usually just manifests in the difference between a 40 seat bus versus a 50 or 63 seat bus, which you can't really change
00:29:34 <ais523> in the UK, most long-distance trains have two tiers of seats
00:30:04 <ais523> known as first class and third class for silly historical reasons, although the "third class" name typically isn't used nowadays (they have "first class" and "standard class" or "first class" and "not first class")
00:30:29 <ais523> but the vast majority of people don't buy first class seats, as they often aren't much better, and when they are, they're often very expensive
00:30:32 <shachaf> sounds like a topic for #trains, y'all
00:30:42 <ais523> and it's leading to something of a problem because of trains getting fully packed
00:30:50 <alercah> wob_jonas: the exit row in particular is what I was thinking of
00:30:57 <ais523> sometimes they have to open up the first class section, without first class advantages, to normal tickets
00:31:20 <wob_jonas> alercah: that has the same problem. no luggage at your feet because it obstructs the emergency exit.
00:31:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, of course, but they don't sell that except for very expensively
00:31:42 <alercah> that's usually been allowed when I've been on flights
00:31:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: it depends on the route
00:32:18 <wob_jonas> most of the flights I've been on are cheap ones that don't even have first class seats (they do have middle class seats)
00:33:48 <ais523> wob_jonas: I picked a random off-peak train journey from Birmingham to London to compare, far enough in the future that Advance tickets are still cheap (also on a Saturday so that I don't run into peak time restrictions)
00:34:09 <wob_jonas> the class distinction on trains is totally meaningless too these days by the way. most trains only have second class, because people just don't buy first class tickets, so the company just uses originally first class carriages as second class. and the distinction between different trains is much bigger than the class distinction.
00:35:06 <wob_jonas> I wouldn't be surprised if they removed the distinction entirely a few years into the future, it's just that MÁV is a huge company with lots of bureaucracy plus is regulated heavily by the state because it's mostly a monopoly which means even more bureaucracy, so changes take a lot of time.
00:35:07 <ais523> it costs £17 (London Midland) / £27 (Virgin) first class, or £6-£8 (London Midland) / £11-16 (Virgin) third class
00:35:17 <ais523> that's on Advance tickets, which get more expensive the more of them have been bought
00:35:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, I'm saying this for trains in Hungary
00:35:39 <wob_jonas> they can totally matter in other countries
00:35:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm just interested to compare
00:35:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: are those on the same train?
00:36:27 <ais523> wob_jonas: same set of trains; Virgin and London Midland use similar routes, but London Midland's is less direct and therefore cheaper because it takes longer
00:36:30 <wob_jonas> different classes of trains are very real, although sometimes you have limited choices, but sometimes you do have a real choice, and the price difference may be zero or it may be bigger than the difference between first and second class.
00:36:57 <ais523> Chiltern is charging £5.50 to £12 on trains during the same set of days
00:37:07 <ais523> they have a notably different route but it's comparable to the other two
00:37:12 <zzo38> Make your own implementation of Magic: the Gathering in computer if you have a better idea.
00:37:32 <ais523> after all, they all go from Birmingham to London, and normally you wouldn't vary the route based on where in London you ended up
00:37:42 <ais523> as you'd probably have to make a journey within London anyway
00:37:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: are there ever three distinct classes of carriages on the same train? "third class" in Hungary is something from before I was born
00:37:58 <ais523> but Chiltern doesn't even seem to have a first class
00:38:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: no, basically what happened was that the government decided that trains were too expensive
00:38:20 <ais523> so asked trains to introduce third class tickets (that were cheaper than the existing second class)
00:38:27 <wob_jonas> expensive to run or expensive to travel on?
00:38:32 <ais523> and it wasn't long before second class had vanished altogether because first and third were just more sensible option
00:38:39 <ais523> expesnive to travel on
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00:40:05 <ais523> that £5.50 to London on Chiltern is crazy, though
00:40:25 <ais523> admittedly it's in the middle of the day on a Saturday, in the heart of super off peak time, and it's booked like a month in advance
00:40:56 <ais523> but I hadn't realised that prices that low were actually achievable except on adverts showing the lowest possible price because that's what adverts do
00:41:33 <oerjan> <ais523> known as first class and third class for silly historical reasons <-- the first class gives you a better chance if the train hits an iceberg hth
00:41:56 <ais523> oerjan: on many services, first class is at one end of the train, often the front
00:42:04 <ais523> so it might give you lower chances in the case of a train hitting something
00:42:18 <ais523> although london midland put first class in the middle of a middle carriage, normally
00:57:29 <fizzie> I think at least on quite a lot of companies, it's now just first class and "standard class".
00:57:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: now as for your game design draft, you don't allow payments of moving a card other than the one that has the mano written on it, right?
00:58:12 <ais523> wob_jonas: wasn't planning to, at least to start with
00:58:41 <ais523> it might be possible to find a nondisruptive way eventually, probably as long as the other card moved doesn't touch the tactics track; you'd probably have to ban the card from being manoeuvred itself
00:58:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: so moving other cards can only be an action, and there are no restrictions on how much they can move a card at the same priority, and you just ignore impossible actions, right?
00:59:26 <ais523> I didn't mention it, but the intention is that any action that can't be fully carried out is entirely ignored (also, health can go negative), but with multiple actions, it's possible for one to fail and others to succeed
00:59:27 <wob_jonas> "beyond their current health" is probalby a minor typo
01:00:04 <fizzie> Virgin is one of those companies. ("Our WiFi is complimentary in First Class, and pay as you go in Standard Class, --")
01:00:28 <wob_jonas> what's missing to me from this document is listing manos that are common among a large class of cards (like all creatures, all lands, all spells, whatever)
01:00:55 <wob_jonas> also I don't quite understand how playing cards from your hand usually works.
01:02:01 <wob_jonas> it seems like they can't just go to the tactic from your hand, because then you couldn't distinguish between the card used from your hand or from the ready; but if they go directly to the busy or ready or attached, then how do you counterspell them?
01:02:08 <fizzie> [[ Trains in Great Britain provide a two-tier class structure, with the higher tier called "first class". The lower tier was re-branded from "third class" to "second class" by British Rail from 3 June 1956, and then to "standard class" from 11 May 1987. ]]
01:02:35 <ais523> aha, so that's what happened
01:02:43 <wob_jonas> obviously you could have cards that are directly spent from your hand or something
01:02:52 <wob_jonas> but cards have to get to the bf somehow
01:03:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, the way it works is that most cards go from hand to tactic 1, but from play to attack / defend / tactic 2
01:03:22 <ais523> at least, that's the plan
01:03:42 <wob_jonas> so they can go directly to tactic 1 even if attack is empty?
01:03:50 <ais523> in some cases, the effect on being initially played is the same as the effect you get from an ability, so you could just "replay" it as a discount
01:04:06 <ais523> and yes, the same physical slot on the board is used for tactic 1 (when there's no attack) and for defending (when there is an attack)
01:04:18 <ais523> mostly so that 2 continues to have the same meaning, of a slot where you respond to your opponent's action
01:06:05 <wob_jonas> ah right, you even mention this as ""Deploy" is a very common manoeuvre name; it always includes "hand → tactics 1" and no positive resource usage, but the negative resource usages vary."
01:08:36 <wob_jonas> also "This might be able to do with an overspill" sounds odd to me, but maybe it's an Englishism
01:12:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: "overspill" isn't actually a noun, I'm just using it as one
01:13:06 <ais523> "with a consequence for overspilling" would be more correct
01:15:16 <wob_jonas> So can an enchantment add manos to the card it's attached to? Or is that forbidden?
01:18:47 <wob_jonas> (the ugly phrasing is because in M:tG, when you attach a Holy Strength enchantment to a Devoted Hero creature, then the Holy Strength is the "attached permanent" but the Devoted Hero is the "enchanted permanent" even though to attach something and to enchant something is sort of the same; and "equip" works the same as "enchant". the terminology is
01:19:14 <wob_jonas> (luckily most of the time in M:tG it's obvious what the words mean because the abilities make sense only for the aura or only for the creature.)
01:21:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: grafting manoeuvres onto cards seems like a reasonable use of an aspect
01:21:54 <ais523> (also, writing that document made me much better at spelling "manoeuvre", it's not an easy word to spell)
01:22:13 <wob_jonas> yeah... although you could just choose a different word instead in that case
01:22:14 <ais523> although I think it's spelled "manoeuver" in US English? not sure on that
01:22:55 <wob_jonas> anyway, it's late so goodbye, channel
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01:32:52 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Tue Sep 5 01:32:51 2017
01:32:57 <shachaf> I'm on and off at the computer.
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02:01:09 <oerjan> . o O ( just spell it "manøver" hth )
02:04:07 <ais523> surely ø̈ would be a better vowel there?
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02:11:49 <oerjan> ais523: we don't use that in norwegian hth
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02:43:55 <zzo38> ais523: I think the rule of your kind of game, to become more clear, to write the open-source computer program of it, possibly by the literate programming so that they same document can also be all of the same text, as well as the computer program codes.
02:45:15 <shachaf> zzo38: What I want, instead, is for card text to be written in a declarative programming language such that you can generate both behavior and readable English text from it.
02:45:27 <zzo38> I don't really care which word you use, but you should use words that you can write with ASCII and be understandable all of the card, even if you may use some non-ASCII characters in their document they should not be require
02:45:55 <shachaf> I think requiring ø is OK.
02:46:16 <zzo38> shachaf: That is another idea yes, and I have thought about that too. Although, I was talking about the rules rather than the cards.
02:46:58 <shachaf> Well, I'd prefer for most of the rules to be implemented in the same programming language as the cards.
02:47:01 <zzo38> But about requiring a slashed "o", well, I think that is not even the correct spelling anyways, so it does not make sense. And even if it is used in the word, it doesn't cause problem with ASCII-only communications anyways.
02:47:27 <shachaf> Only a small core language needs to be part of the definition of the game itself.
02:47:37 <shachaf> And I don't care whether the core language is specified in English.
02:48:02 <shachaf> zzo38: ASCII-only communication is outdated
02:48:06 <zzo38> shachaf: At least in the case of Magic: the Gathering that does make sense, but for ais523's game it seem difference
02:48:08 <shachaf> It has gone the way of Gopherr.
02:48:29 <shachaf> Oh, I wasn't talking about either of those games, but a hypothetical game I haven't described.
02:48:37 <ais523> shachaf: I like the idea of storing cards as AST and converting it to English and code
02:48:38 <zzo38> O, OK, then it works fine.
02:48:54 <ais523> although the English should convert back to the AST too, otherwise people wouldn't know what a card did by looking at it
02:49:14 <shachaf> ais523: Ideally the language describing card behavior would be simple enough that people could also read it directly.
02:49:17 <lambdabot> KAFF 050058Z AUTO 33015G23KT 8SM CLR 24/03 A3029 RMK AO2 PK WND 34026/22 SLP178 T02390030 $
02:49:31 <shachaf> But it would be good if there was a canonical translation back and forth to English.
02:49:32 <zzo38> ais523: Actually that idea I have thought of even for use with Magic: the Gathering too (but not the second part about back conversion, which would make the text a bit messy I think)
02:49:34 <pikhq> 8? I dispute that claim; that is too high.
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02:49:46 <ais523> shachaf: perhaps it should be a subset of English?
02:49:54 <shachaf> ais523: Sure, just like Magic: The Gathering
02:49:54 <pikhq> The air would be nicer if it was breathable.
02:49:57 <ais523> M:tG is sort-of like a "programming language that's a subset of English" already
02:50:01 <ais523> but not that well specified
02:50:07 <shachaf> ais523: It's annoying that Hearthstone card text doesn't describe behavior completely at all.
02:50:19 <shachaf> In fact people have to reverse-engineer card behavior sometimes.
02:50:20 <ais523> hearthstone is trying to deal with screen size problems
02:50:30 <ais523> that's part of the reason why aspects, manoeuvres, actions all have names
02:50:36 <ais523> so that on a small screen, you can display just the name
02:50:54 <ais523> and people know what the names do most of the time, or if they don't, there'd be some way to look up the corresponding action
02:50:55 <pikhq> That 8 mile visibility is from smoke.
02:51:04 <shachaf> ais523: MtG card language is fairly well-specified, but it can also say whatever it wants.
02:51:30 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, mostly it is well specified enough. Not quite, though.
02:51:50 <ais523> shachaf: I'd argue that it's very poorly specified, although rigid
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02:52:00 <ais523> there isn't even a grammar, unless you count Alex Churchill's
02:52:01 <zzo38> And, "almost" isn't good enough.
02:52:14 <shachaf> ais523: I like using keywords and short descriptive words in card names.
02:52:29 <shachaf> But I kind of wish those were part of a "standard library", separate from the core game rules.
02:52:33 <ais523> actually I think one of my favourite innovations is cards referring to themselves in first person
02:53:25 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has text editing effects, which implies a AST anyways, even if nobody has ever written it down.
02:54:01 <shachaf> gain hug until end of turn
02:54:01 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I like that too, although it isn't only you who did that; someone else too has described a game they were making, with the same thing, to me.
02:56:48 <zzo38> My ideas for AST for Magic: the Gathering is one example can be: [:counter [:target :spell]] or [:counter [:target [:and [:not :black], :spell]]] and it can use precise rules (written in open-source computer code) to describe the exact conversion and meaning.
02:58:17 <zzo38> ("Counter" in Magic: the Gathering has another meaning too, which refers to a one-shot property, although in this AST the two kind of "counter" are two different words.)
02:58:42 <ais523> zzo38: I think RoboRosewater uses "unspell" internally?
03:00:32 <zzo38> OK, maybe, and yes that will work too. (Or maybe it uses "uncast"; I don't know, but that works too)
03:00:37 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like the chain rule?
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03:02:22 <alercah> zzo38: text editing doesn't require an AST
03:03:07 <alercah> I forgot that it refers to types
03:03:34 <zzo38> What chain rule and what about chain rule?
03:05:57 <ais523> the chain rule makes intuitive sense if you see derivatives as limits of deltas
03:05:58 <shachaf> The chain rule makes a lot more sense when you add types.
03:06:03 <shachaf> It's the only thing that type-checks.
03:06:23 <ais523> shachaf: there's two ways to write it
03:06:33 <ais523> dy/dx = dy/du × du/dx is the one I'm thinking of
03:06:58 <ais523> the other version is less symmetrical, shorter, and comes to the same thing
03:07:01 <shachaf> That's the best way to write it, though I haven't figured out quite what it means.
03:07:26 <ais523> shachaf: basically, y is a function of x, but can also be written as a function of u, where u is a function of x
03:07:47 <ais523> so you can differentiate y with respect to u, because y is a function of u
03:07:49 <shachaf> I like Leibniz notation a lot. But I don't really know how to formalize it.
03:07:58 <ais523> and you can differentiate u with respect to x, obviously
03:08:36 <shachaf> Hmm, do people often write things like "d(x^3)/d(x^2)"?
03:08:37 <ais523> for a silly example, let's say y=u², u=sin x; then we have dy/du=2u, du/dx = cos x
03:08:58 <ais523> then we just multiply them together and get 2u cos x = 2(sin x) cos x
03:09:08 <ais523> which is dy/dx in this case
03:09:40 <ais523> the notation only works if you have one specific independent variable identified (in this case, x)
03:10:04 <ais523> d(x³)/d(x²) is meaningful if you treat x as the variable in question (it's d(x³)/dx ÷ d(x²)/dx)
03:10:35 <shachaf> I think it works in some other cases as well.
03:10:48 <ais523> and the way to think about dy (where y isn't your independent variable) is that it means "the value of y when x has a slightly higher value, minus the value of y right now"
03:11:04 <ais523> (where the "slightly higher value" would be x+dx)
03:11:37 <ais523> in the case where the derivative isn't continuous, "slightly higher" and "slightly lower" may give different results, but that's a case that's typically ignored at lower levels of maths
03:12:03 <ais523> anyway, the point is that you take limits, so you take the limit of the derivative as dx shrinks to 0
03:12:22 <shachaf> You know the thing people do -- I think we've talked about this before -- where they have "x^2 + y^2 = 1", and then "2 x dx + 2 y dy = 0", and then "dy/dx = -x/y"?
03:12:29 <ais523> but clearly, you have dy/du×du/dx=dy/dx while dx is positive, so you wouldn't expect it to change in the limit
03:12:50 <ais523> shachaf: yes, there are a bunch of rules for whether that's safe to do, and I'm not sure I've ever seen them written down
03:12:52 <shachaf> It's true that you can parameterize x and y in terms of some other variable, but it doesn't matter which one you use.
03:13:10 <ais523> in this case, I'd probably define x = cos t and y = sin t
03:13:51 <ais523> but the point is that the exact parameterization can matter, especially when multiple x correspond to a single y
03:14:22 <shachaf> What's an example where it matters?
03:14:48 <shachaf> Anyway, I was thinking of the chain rule in multidimensional cases, since the single-dimensional version loses some important content.
03:15:02 <ais523> basically, think of x²+y²=1 as a curve (in this case, a circle); in order to calculate things like dy/dx, you have to imagine a point moving along that circle, and dy/dx becomes the ratio of its y velocity to its x velocity
03:15:03 <shachaf> (dy/du * du/dx is really composition of linear maps, or multiplication of matrices; it's not commutative)
03:15:22 <ais523> obviously, it doesn't matter how fast it's moving (as long as it has nonzero speed) in the case of the circle
03:15:31 <ais523> but if you can imagine a more complex curve, say one that crosses itself
03:15:49 <ais523> the speed of the point is going to depend on which path it takes
03:16:03 <shachaf> So you're parameterizing everything in terms of time to make it work.
03:16:09 <ais523> a really degenerate example where the theory breaks down is 0xy=0
03:16:17 <ais523> you can find the derivative at any point to be anything there
03:16:51 <ais523> and sure, dividing by 0 is normally cheating, but you need a rigid set of rules to make sure you aren't doing it in any given case
03:17:13 <shachaf> One thing you can say is, the curve is defined by the zero set of f(x,y) = x^2 + y^2 - 1
03:17:40 <ais523> I think this sort of derivative shenanigans only works at points on the curve which have a unique tangent
03:17:41 <shachaf> And the derivative is defined by the zero set of Df(x,y)(dx,dy) = 2x dx + 2y dy
03:17:53 <shachaf> Or rather the derivative at each point
03:17:59 <ais523> and even then, you do have to uniquely define the point (which may involve specifying both x /and/ y, or using a third variable to parameterize)
03:18:16 <shachaf> I'm quite happy using both x and y
03:18:46 <shachaf> For example, even for the half-circle sqrt(1-x^2), "-y/x" is much nicer than "-sqrt(1-x^2)/x"
03:19:05 <shachaf> And also it works for a circle of any radius.
03:19:53 <zzo38> Is easy what it mean, if you multiply dy/du by du/dx then the du are cancel out, it look like.
03:20:04 <ais523> actually I think what typically goes wrong with this approach isn't necessarily in the dx/dy manipulation itself, but in trying to write x or y in terms of each other when it isn't unique
03:20:12 <shachaf> zzo38: It look like, but is it actually?
03:20:43 <ais523> zzo38: right, the dx and dy symbols don't necessarily obey all the normal rules of mathematics, so you often have to prove any specific thing you can do with them separately
03:20:48 <ais523> but in this case they do follow normal rules
03:22:00 <shachaf> ais523: I'd like them to be something other than symbols.
03:22:08 <shachaf> For example sometimes people define them to be differential forms.
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03:22:23 <shachaf> But that doesn't really work that well with the typical uses of Leibniz notation, I think.
03:22:34 <zzo38> ais523: I have read that the notations like d^2x and dx^2 don't follow the rules in the common way, but that it is possible to use the notation to mean something else to make it work, but then the second derivative is written in a more complicated way (although it is still d(dy/dx)/dx)
03:26:16 <zzo38> (I have made the figuring out of d(dy/dx)/dx by myself and confirmed what Penrose mentioned.)
03:26:18 <shachaf> zzo38: I worked it out in this channel once.
03:26:57 <shachaf> d(dy/dx)/dx = d^2y/dx^2 + dy/dx d^2x/dx^2
03:27:55 <zzo38> I worked it out on paper once but forget now what it is
03:28:15 <shachaf> What I said is what you get if you parameterize x and y in terms of t
03:28:34 <shachaf> And then treat "d(...)" as meaning "the derivative of ... with respect to t"
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04:14:45 <relrod> my server just shat itself and I don't know why
04:15:10 <relrod> load average went through the roof, but it wasn't a DDoS or anything (no spike in net traffic, nothing useful in logs) :/
04:16:21 <ais523> relrod: it's likely either a scheduled maintenance task that rarely runs, or a trojan/virus
04:16:38 <ais523> you want something like top in order to see what's responsible for a high load average, not logs
04:16:52 <ais523> or it could be a legitimate program that got stuck in an infinite loop for some reason
04:18:33 <relrod> ais523: It's a Linux box, so I'd assume not trojan/virus. And I run the box... I haven't installed any new cronjobs recently or anything.
04:18:59 <ais523> relrod: the most common malware on Linux is from people brute-forcing your password, then installing it manually when they learn what it is
04:19:00 <relrod> So yeah it's likely a loop of some sort...but I was hoping something would have spit out something useful to a logfile
04:19:19 <ais523> Linux boxes are much more valuable targets to hackers than Windows boxed because Linux is a much more powerful OS
04:19:26 <shachaf> Was there disk I/O? High memory usage?
04:19:28 <ais523> but if it's a loop, the program responsible will show at the top of top
04:19:44 <shachaf> How is Linux more powerful?
04:20:01 <relrod> ais523: I only root login with key auth. So if it were a password attempt, they'd also need to know my username, and the (non-standard) port I run sshd on.
04:20:07 <ais523> shachaf: if you can run as root on Linux, it's fairly easy to do things like make a highly scalable spam cannon
04:20:09 <relrod> in which case it would be a *very* targeted attack
04:20:20 <relrod> only allow root login with key auth*
04:20:20 <ais523> that's harder on Windows, which is further from the metal
04:20:38 <shachaf> Why do you need metal to make a cannon?
04:21:30 <relrod> shachaf: there was a spike in mem usage, but it didn't peak. https://elrod.me/collectd/bin/index.cgi?plugin=memory×pan=86400&action=show_selection&ok_button=OK
04:21:45 <ais523> Linux is better for writing servers than home editions of Windows
04:22:05 <relrod> 23:19:28 < ais523> but if it's a loop, the program responsible will show at the top of top
04:22:08 <relrod> if I could've ssh'd into it, yes
04:22:11 <relrod> I had to force a reboot
04:22:14 <ais523> which have arbitrary restrictions that make them very bad at serving as servers
04:22:20 <relrod> I couldn't get into the box at all, on console or ssh
04:22:25 <shachaf> I don't know much about home editions of Windows. But I assume relrod's server isn't running that anyway.
04:23:03 <ais523> Linux has system calls like sendfile(2) which are designed for highly efficient network operations, whereas IIRC Windows can't do more than 4 network connections at once unless you pay Microsoft money to increase the limit
04:23:47 <ais523> relrod: kernel panic, perhaps? that would normally show in the logs, but sometimes it's something bad enough that the logs can't be saved to disk
04:23:54 <shachaf> relrod: you should give up and set up prometheus like fizzie did hth
04:24:00 <ais523> although that can't be the case if the graphs were collected by a usermode process on the machine
04:24:10 <relrod> ais523: well it was responding to pings (so net stack was still up), but that was about it.
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04:24:56 <relrod> ais523: I'm thinking some process just went crazy
04:25:34 <ais523> that shouldn't make it impossible to ssh in, and definitely shouldn't make it impossible to get in via the serial console
04:26:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53034&oldid=53023 * Dlosc * (+15) /* C */ Added Charcoal
04:26:49 <ais523> ooh, is someone finally documenting Charcoal?
04:27:01 <ais523> I figured out bits by reading the source, but it's still a really hard language to learn
04:27:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53035&oldid=50903 * Dlosc * (+151) Added note about Charcoal contributions
04:27:38 <pikhq> How many people actually have Windows 10 S though?
04:27:50 <pikhq> 10 S is the one with that limit, and it *also* has the limit you can only run Store apps.
04:28:02 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I thought it applied to regular Windows * Home too
04:28:10 <ais523> maybe that got removed at some point
04:29:06 <relrod> ais523: I mean, if a process was hammering both cores, everything else would get queued up, waiting for CPU time, right?
04:29:36 <relrod> which would explain SSH hanging, and the console not being able to throw me a login prompt
04:31:02 <pikhq> I think it might have been also in some of the "developing nations only" editions too.
04:31:40 <pikhq> Home omits some features, like Hyper-V, but doesn't have arbitrary limitations on the features it does have like that.
04:31:45 <relrod> I think it depends though. I've had work servers that nagios-alerted with ~400 load average before that still let me ssh in and kill the process that went to shit. *shrug*
04:32:09 <ais523> relrod: schedulers don't work like that, if a process is really hammering the CPUs, the kernel will make sure that other processes can get timeslices
04:32:23 <ais523> now, if a process is really hammering the /disk/, that can give Linux trouble, for reasons I don't fully understand
04:33:49 <ais523> pikhq: I looked it up, there's a limit of 10 or 20 (depending on edition) devices that can be connected to a single Windows machine, but that wording is vague and probably doesn't apply to all TCP connections
04:34:46 <pikhq> That's the limit on the *SMB server*.
04:35:10 <ais523> right, looking around various discussions on this
04:35:24 <pikhq> Which, humorously, is trivial to work around now.
04:35:40 <ais523> I've gathered that a) that limit is related to SMB; b) inbound connections that don't use SMB or IIS are sometimes banned by license agreements but there's no technological block on them
04:36:15 <ais523> pikhq: OK, that's brilliant
04:36:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53036&oldid=53035 * Dlosc * (+66)
04:36:49 <pikhq> Which is provided on all versions of Windows that will run 64-bit Windows binaries.
04:37:05 <pikhq> (of up-to-date Windows 10, I should say)
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04:40:56 <oerjan> ais523: your polyglot challenge is up to 127 now
04:41:23 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, has it slowed down a bit then?
04:41:37 <ais523> or have I just failed to track the typical rate of growth mentally?
04:41:59 <ais523> any interesting new languages, or is it all just BF derivatives?
04:42:16 <oerjan> it seems to come in bursts, with several people posting shortly after each other, i assume they coordinate.
04:43:26 <oerjan> latest are: deltaplex, nhonhehr, gammaplex, C(clang), mycelium, monkeys, braincopter
04:44:27 <oerjan> piet wasn't too long ago
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04:46:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brian and Chuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53037 * Dlosc * (+27) Redirected page to [[Brian & Chuck]]
04:47:17 <oerjan> and before that, they had a bunch of emoji languages
04:47:53 <\oren\> Hmm, I wonder how eso kOS is. Maybe it merits an wiki page?
04:48:12 <ais523> I'm reading the latest additions now
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06:40:10 <zzo38> I have the book of Pitman shorthand (from 1971). But, can we to make up a new system of shorthand can be theatre shorthand?
06:43:03 <zzo38> The intention of my idea of the theatre shorthand will be (among other things): [1] To write without having to look at the paper so much. [2] In addition to words, can also be record music.
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07:29:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53038&oldid=53036 * Dlosc * (+137)
07:30:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53039&oldid=53038 * Dlosc * (+0) Alphabetized
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10:28:20 <b_jonas_> "<shachaf> ais523: It's annoying that Hearthstone card text doesn't describe behavior completely at all." => um sure. M:tG text doesn't either. that's why we have a separate Comprehensive Rules and Oracle Text document, each hundreds of pages long.
10:28:43 <b_jonas_> The rules are so big you can't reasonably fit them on the front of the cards.
10:30:48 <shachaf> For almost all cards, the card text and general rules understanding describes the behavior precisely.
10:30:58 <shachaf> For some special cases where you need extra rulings, those are mostly to disambiguate.
10:31:27 <b_jonas_> "<ais523> actually I think one of my favourite innovations is cards referring to themselves in first person" => why is that useful? couldn't it cause confusion because players also refer to themselves in first person when they describe an action. I'm not saying you should use full card names (or the part before comma) all the time, but M:tG also uses "this <property>" in indirect rules text and "this" in reminder text.
10:32:34 <shachaf> In Hearthstone there are cards with effects like "summon a random creature token of type X", where you don't even know what tokens of type X there are and what abilities they have without trying it out.
10:32:42 <shachaf> Or something like that, I don't know the details.
10:33:08 <b_jonas_> "<zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has text editing effects, which implies a AST anyways, even if nobody has ever written it down." => no, I totally disagree with that. The text editing effects are very limited, they only care about mentions of mana symbols and color words and subtypes (land and creature) in the card text, which just requires a few simple parameters of those types rather than a full AST.
10:37:56 <b_jonas_> zzo38: in particular, I'm not really convinced that it would be worth to specify M:tG in some abstract domain specific language tailored to M:tG. It could work, but I think it might be better to use a good generic programming language for implementing the rules, and not have it automatically linked to the English version of the rules.
10:38:30 <b_jonas_> (The English Comp Rules and Oracle versus the computer-readable code version could be maintained together, or separately one following the other as they are now.)
10:41:15 <shachaf> b_jonas_: I'd rather design a new game meant for this sort of system than use MTG
10:42:01 <b_jonas_> "<ais523> the chain rule [in calculus] makes intuitive sense if you see derivatives as limits of deltas" => it's easy to confuse yourself to think that the chain rule makes intuitive sense, but it's much harder to actually get an intuition that helps you figure out answers to more complicated applications, such as those involving multiple derivatives or more some crazier integral-fubini transforms
10:42:51 <b_jonas_> also, there's like five different ways how people say the chain rule makes intuitive sense, and I've no idea how to connect those different intuitions.
10:43:35 <b_jonas_> sure, for simple problems, any of the intuitions work.
10:44:17 <shachaf> b_jonas_: All I was saying was, if you add types, there's only one way the chain rule can work.
10:44:42 <shachaf> If you say that for f : A -> B, Df : A -> (A -o B), where -o means a linear map
10:44:48 <shachaf> Then you just fit it all together
10:45:14 <shachaf> I guess some people would say something about the product of the Jacobian matrices or something.
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10:51:33 <b_jonas_> "<ais523> [home editions of Windows] have arbitrary restrictions that make them very bad at serving as servers" => and no good ports of C or C++ compiler toolkits or perl interpreters. it took some working on windows at my job to realize how REALLY TERRIBLE the C compiler situation is.
10:51:51 <ais523> strawberry perl is pretty good
10:53:04 <b_jonas_> (if Rust ever takes over, it won't be because it's a better language or has a better compiler, even though both of those are true, but because they're doing a lot of extra work to make sure all the infrastructure works on windows. and this might be a factor of the popularity of python and other high-level languages over C++, though I'm not sure about that.)
10:53:55 <b_jonas_> seriously. NOBODY HAS A GOOD FREE SOFTWARE PORT OF ANY GOOD C COMPILER TOOLKIT FOR WINDOWS X86_64. There are tons of ports, but each of them suck.
10:56:41 <b_jonas_> The root problem isn't that your existing C or C++ programs aren't portable, because libraries are missing. That's just a consequence of having no good C compiler toolkits, which is why existing mostly portable C or C++ libraries already don't get ported, and it's hard to develop entirely new C or C++ programs too.
10:57:45 <b_jonas_> Even libraries that get ported to BSD and Hurd and IBM's non-ASCII systems and VMS all sorts of crazy systems don't have a windows port, because it's such a suffering to continuously maintain C code for windows.
10:58:13 <b_jonas_> (Windows does have some other advantages for a user, I know.)
10:58:33 <APic> That makes good Programmers go away from Winblows. 😎
11:03:29 <b_jonas_> "<zzo38> The intention of my idea of the theatre shorthand will be (among other things): [1] To write without having to look at the paper so much." => people just use stenography (shorthand typewriters) for that, I think
11:05:04 <b_jonas_> "<shachaf> I'd rather design a new game meant for this sort of system than use MTG" => ok
11:05:51 <b_jonas_> "<shachaf> b_jonas_: All I was saying was, if you add types, there's only one way the chain rule can work." => I don't think so. when you do third derivatives, you get small constant factors in your expressions that you can't figure out from just the types.
11:06:55 <b_jonas_> APic: good in what sense? it's not good for a programmer like me who has to suffer with stupid windows software because of this
11:07:22 <APic> Just stop working for a Company that forces You to use Windows?
11:07:54 <b_jonas_> APic: technically they only force me to develop products that will work on windows, but it's difficult either way
11:09:34 <APic> Life is generally not easy. ☺
11:11:34 <APic> All Generalizations are false. 😉
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11:33:01 <shachaf> b_jonas_: Third derivatives? How do you mean?
11:42:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53040&oldid=53031 * Zseri * (+19) +new cast op equivalent
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12:35:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53041&oldid=53040 * Zseri * (+250) Operator Compat Levels
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13:11:54 <b_jonas_> shachaf: uh... let me look up the formulas online, I don't remember how they work. might involve some partial derivatives in multiple dimensions on a totally differentiable function where the symmetry of the order of derivatives causes the constants, or maybe something else was involved
13:12:12 <b_jonas_> shachaf: you already mentioned chain rule and second derivatives
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13:13:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_rule#Higher_derivatives and the constant factors of terms on the right hand side of equations
13:14:15 <b_jonas> as always, it's possible that you or ais are already good at calculus and all that stuff is still intuitively obvious to you, and it's just me who has the problem
13:21:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53042&oldid=53041 * Zseri * (-30) improve formatting of operator tables
13:23:43 <b_jonas> I still couldn't get used to some of this strange new interface in MS Word these days. So find and spellcheck aren't controlled by dialog boxes now, but instead by dockers. The main action buttons in those dialogs (find next, replace, replace all; skip, skip all, ignore, replace with selected word) do have underlined letters in them,
13:24:59 <b_jonas> but it wasn't obvious to figure out how you actually press the button with those shortcuts. The answer is, you have to first F6 to the docker (clicking on a buttom with the mouse doesn't activate that docker), then press the letter without modifiers.
13:25:40 <b_jonas> Alt+letter or alt+shift letter doesn't work even if that docker is selected, because it's not a dialog. Alt+letter will just activate the menu entry, which sort of makes sense, but alt+shift+letter doesn't seem to do anything,
13:26:25 <b_jonas> which goes against what I learned in all word, in which macro debugging was controlled by such a persistently active non-modal "docker" (actually an extra toolbar thingy) with underlined buttons and you had to press alt+shift+letter for its buttons (because alt+letter clashed with the menu).
13:28:03 <b_jonas> And I still think there's no way to figure out how the shit any of this keyboard contorl works from just the interface and help, unless you already have a lot of fucking experience-based intuition on how older more intuitive MS software works and try pressing a lot of random buttons (and make sure you have gigabytes of free RAM and make backups because trying random buttons has strange side effects).
13:32:15 <b_jonas> And even if you do figure it out, the interface is sometimes unintuitive. Example: you can toggle the ribbon bar as always visible or hidden, have ribbon bars with functions that you commonly use together, only one ribbon bar is shown at any one time, and if a ribbon bar was visible and you activate a new one, the new one will stay visible. Good so far.
13:33:38 <b_jonas> The buttons and other controls on ribon bars have the equivalent of menu shortcuts, these shortcuts are one or two letters, and they're per ribbon bar. Still good. The shortcuts within a ribbon bar are distinct form the shortcuts of different ribbon bars (top-level menu entries), which implies you get a lot of really strange and too long shortcuts, BUT
13:34:35 <b_jonas> you can't just press alt plus the shortcut of a ribbon bar button, despite that it seems like you can, no, each time you have to press the shortcut of the ribbon bar (with alt or f10) and then the shortcut of the particular control, even if the ribbon bar is already fucking active and visible.
13:35:26 <b_jonas> This is just one example of lots of basically good innovated design messed up by stupid small things like that.
13:36:41 <b_jonas> (I also hate the Hungarian localized interface with a passion no matter when I use it, continuiously ever since those eixst. Just stop localizing any of the fucking interface to Hungarian.)
13:38:46 <b_jonas> (But luckily these days it's easier to get software with the original English localized interface than it used to when you'd have Hungarian Winword on two floppies and that was it. I even looked up the magical incantations for telling Firefox to use the English interface. Its default is to use the default localization of Windows, and I did download the English language pack for Firefox, but even then it wouldn't automatically choose that.)
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14:07:45 <b_jonas> Oh by the way, in case this is new to other people. Windows 10 does have a multiple virtual desktop thing built in, wherein you can group windows to multiple "virtual desktop" and quickly switch between desktop to show those windows and hide most others. In windows 7 you need extra software for that, although that might still be useful for windows 10 because of a better interface.
14:08:03 <b_jonas> I hadn't known this before, because the feature is somewhat well hidden in the windows 10 interface.
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14:16:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53043&oldid=53042 * Zseri * (+251) Computational class
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15:08:13 <picoder_> Hi, has anyone tried to optimize the graham scan by modifying the actual algorith?
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16:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53044&oldid=52875 * Zayne * (+38) /* Examples */
16:13:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53045&oldid=53044 * Zayne * (+123)
16:41:19 <int-e> this session will be full... (will include ICFP contest ceremony...)
16:43:05 <int-e> @tell oerjan please define "broken"
16:48:49 <int-e> @tell oerjan in general I find it very hard to not simply ignore reports that tell me that something is broken without explaining how.
16:49:15 <b_jonas> int-e: nice! will Endo be present?
16:49:20 * APic grins magically.
16:49:39 <int-e> b_jonas: I don't know.
16:50:05 <int-e> there's a couple of talks first
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16:52:05 <\oren\> b_jonas: hmm, now I'm wondering how different countries compare, if you asked people there "do you prefer to use most software in English or in your native language?"
16:52:44 <int-e> b_jonas: did Endo's planet even have trees and rivers?
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16:55:49 <\oren\> i guess you'd have to somehow correct for differences in English knowledge between countries
16:59:20 <\oren\> but there might be a crossover point where a country's population knows enough english that they will prefer the English interface to a badly localized version
16:59:40 <b_jonas> int-e: dunno, but I think there his transformed form has definitely affected a tree and river.
17:00:05 <b_jonas> (recall that endo's DNS affects its environment more directly than ours)
17:32:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: My idea specifies the cards (and some of, but not all of, the rules) in a domain specific language, although it does not have to be one specific to M:tG, and might be usable with other kind of card games too. But it should be one close enough to be able to do alterable AST (whether it is an interpreter and alters it directly, or is compiled and figures out what it needs to compile in order to allow the alterations to be implemented to do t
17:33:12 <zzo38> Does this make sense? Or maybe I missed something
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18:21:25 <HackEgo> olist 1096: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:41:35 <mroman> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biproportional_apportionment <- how the fuck can this work
18:41:59 <mroman> if I have 2 seats to give
18:42:05 <mroman> and I have the votes 200, 200, 200
18:42:18 <mroman> how can there be a divisor such that the rounded sum yields 2?
18:42:25 <mroman> either 200 / divisor is 0 or it is 0
18:42:31 <mroman> meaning the sum of seats will either be 3 or 0
18:42:34 <mroman> but it can never be 2?
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19:28:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Raumaankidwai * New user account
19:29:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53046&oldid=53022 * Raumaankidwai * (+275)
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20:18:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53047 * Raumaankidwai * (+5268) Created page with "'''Cubestate''' is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:Raumaankidwai]]. '''Cubestate''' (or '''cubestate''') programs are based on sequences of moves on Rubik's Cu..."
20:19:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53048&oldid=53047 * Raumaankidwai * (+6)
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20:20:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53049&oldid=53048 * Raumaankidwai * (+202)
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20:55:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53050&oldid=53049 * Zseri * (-254) improve formatting
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22:31:49 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like pumpernickel bread?
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23:53:19 <lambdabot> int-e said 7h 10m 13s ago: please define "broken"
23:53:19 <lambdabot> int-e said 7h 4m 29s ago: in general I find it very hard to not simply ignore reports that tell me that something is broken without explaining how.
23:55:18 <oerjan> @tell int-e Broken as in even @hoogle a -> a wasn't working yesterday.
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23:56:04 <wob_jonas> fuck! is there some simple way to remove a rust stain from a cheap polypropilene box with rough surface?
23:56:39 <wob_jonas> I stored a throwaway standalone scraper blade in it, and I didn't realize the blade was made from a non-rustproof iron
23:56:39 <oerjan> may also remove other things.
23:57:28 <oerjan> i'm sorry, my chemistry is rusty
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00:08:02 <wob_jonas> at least I have found the rest of the pack of the same type of scrapers after some searching
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00:20:31 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> b_jonas: My idea specifies the cards (and some of, but not all of, the rules) in a domain specific language, [...] one close enough to be able to do alterable AST" => it does totally make sense, and it would probably work, and it's possible that it's the best way, but I think it's probably easier to not do that, and use a general purpose p
00:20:31 <wob_jonas> rogramming language and write the rules and cards in it.
00:26:17 <wob_jonas> Internet search says (besides various advertisment sites and answers to questions other than mine) try acidic cleaning agent. I'll try a mild one, it probably won't work, but won't hurt either.
00:26:37 <wob_jonas> Apart from that, just buy a new plastic box and throw this one away.
00:41:37 <wob_jonas> brilliant. the webpage says their phone number is “06 80 353 353 (06 40 FKF FKF)”. from context I think the first one is right, and the one in the parenthesis is a typo, but I'm not sure.
00:42:13 <wob_jonas> ah good, later on the same webpage it says “06 80 353 353 (06 80 FKF FKF)” so that's more votes on the first number
00:44:43 <wob_jonas> ah. actually both of those numbers are correct and ring at them.
00:47:34 <wob_jonas> great! organic acid cleaning agent did seem to help. I removed most of the dust. some remains, but I did expect that.
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01:00:33 <ais523> rust and polypropylene are sufficiently chemically different that you'd imagine some cleaning agent exists that can clean one from the other
01:13:08 <alercah> ais523: I misread as rust and polymorphism and thought you were talking about programming
01:13:54 <ais523> the end of the sentence must have been fairly confusing then ;-)
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08:12:53 <b_jonas> "<alercah> ais523: I misread as rust and polymorphism" lol
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08:15:06 <b_jonas> ais523: some solvent must work, sure. the non-obvious part was if there's some househole agent that I can use safely (so not eg. natrium hidroxyde or some such cleaner) and simple enough to use to be worth for some cheap plastic thingy (as opposed to something expensive to replace like a window frame).
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08:21:21 <HackEgo> A frame is just a complete Heyting algebra. Frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication, if you know what I mean.
08:21:41 <HackEgo> Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
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10:18:41 <b_jonas> you know, I asked many time for a numerical multi-dimensional maximizer function other than the ones in GSL? apparently recent versions of OpenCV have one. I'm sure this wasn't there in older versions.
10:21:06 <int-e> @tell oerjan @hoogle not responding at all is strange indeed, but I have no clue why; no suspicious OOM kills, and it's running locally; maybe an IO bottleneck and resulting timeout... how would one diagnose this
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10:34:54 <fizzie> b_jonas: There's also http://dlib.net/optimization.html (don't know this firsthand, but remember having come across it somewhere)
10:39:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: let me look at that
10:40:05 <b_jonas> I'll look at it later, thanks for mentioning it, I haven't heard of that library yet
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11:19:44 <b_jonas> oh dear. they're printing an eighth Jace card
11:25:03 <b_jonas> huh what? no, Jace is definitely not a druid
11:46:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: no. Karn might be a droid
11:48:33 <b_jonas> also, they're printing another hive land, which could be useful for some decks, like five-color sliver decks that already run only crazy lands and have four Ancient Ziggurats and four of that sliver land thing already ,
11:48:45 <b_jonas> or the spirit deck I'm trying to build
11:52:36 <shachaf> creatures you control have sliver. creatures your opponents control lose sliver and can't have or gain sliver.
11:56:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: we don't have those together, but we have the two separately
11:57:49 <b_jonas> and for quite cheap too, namely Shields of Velis Vel for the first one and Ego Erasure for the latter
11:58:57 <b_jonas> these are just about the only defense you can use against when a good sliver decks plays Crystalline Sliver unless it plays that very early
11:59:49 <b_jonas> the other possible defense is mass creature removal, but that only works if you build your deck in such a way that it can recover from that faster than the sliver deck, which is not so easy
12:00:08 <b_jonas> whereas Ego Erasure and Shields of Velis Vel don't require much of a build around
12:02:10 <b_jonas> there's also some early defense you can do, which you need to have before the Crystalline comes out, like counterspells and similar
12:03:12 <b_jonas> there's also Hivestone for the former by the way
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15:27:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53051&oldid=53050 * Raumaankidwai * (-349)
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17:25:39 <\oren\> oh shit, sint maarten is fucked
17:29:03 <\oren\> Barbuda is probably annihilated
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18:15:33 <\oren\> "Disgraced pharmaceutical CEO Martin Shkreli claims to have Hillary Clinton’s DNA and has threatened to clone her in a bizarre series of Facebook posts. "
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02:58:56 <lambdabot> int-e said 16h 37m 50s ago: @hoogle not responding at all is strange indeed, but I have no clue why; no suspicious OOM kills, and it's running locally; maybe an IO bottleneck and resulting timeout...
02:59:15 <oerjan> @tell it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions.
02:59:26 <oerjan> @tell incomprehensibly it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions.
02:59:38 <oerjan> @tell int-e it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions.
03:00:12 <oerjan> @tell incomprehensibly ...tab completion error.
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03:41:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Drawkcab]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53052&oldid=52138 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) C++ ----> ++C
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08:07:45 <int-e> am I to conclude that the command line hoogle is not deterministic?
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08:37:10 <oerjan> int-e: well it wasn't on that day, anyway.
08:37:47 <shachaf> It's good enough if it's deterministic some of the time.
08:38:16 <shachaf> (This was acknowledging oerjan's joke, not missing it and then making the same joke.)
08:57:48 <int-e> oerjan: I don't know anything tangible that changed between then and now
08:59:19 <int-e> (nor did I actually observe the behavior you describe, but that's a smaller issue)
09:06:23 <oerjan> hm perhaps i should paste my log
09:07:38 <oerjan> 08:35 =oerjan> @hoogle a->a
09:07:38 <oerjan> 08:35 =lambdabot> package base
09:07:38 <oerjan> 08:35 =lambdabot> package bytestring
09:07:38 <oerjan> 08:35 =lambdabot> package containers
09:08:08 <oerjan> int-e: it gave the same response to every type i tried
09:09:10 <oerjan> 08:34 =oerjan> @hoogle f::(a->b)->(a,c)->(b,c)
09:09:10 <oerjan> 08:34 =lambdabot> Formatting.ShortFormatters f :: Real a => Int -> Format r (a -> r)
09:09:13 <oerjan> 08:34 =lambdabot> Turtle.Format f :: Format r (Double -> r)
09:09:16 <oerjan> 08:34 =lambdabot> Debug.SimpleReflect.Vars f :: FromExpr a => a
09:09:38 <int-e> some parsing problem
09:09:55 <oerjan> shachaf: false alarm, it was deterministic anyhow
09:10:30 <int-e> I'll try a newer hoogle version soonish, though it may have to wait until october
09:11:07 <lambdabot> Text.Blaze.Html4.FrameSet a :: Html -> Html
09:11:07 <lambdabot> Text.Blaze.Html4.Strict a :: Html -> Html
09:11:07 <lambdabot> Text.Blaze.Html4.Transitional a :: Html -> Html
09:11:25 <oerjan> int-e: maybe it simply treats everything without a space as an ident
09:12:42 <int-e> anyway, this is Hoogle 5.0.9
09:13:40 <int-e> 5.0.13 apparently fixes this
09:14:07 <int-e> https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/issues/219
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09:15:52 <int-e> so let's just try installing the new version
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09:25:26 <int-e> so what is the significance of those 'package' results (if they are results at all...)?
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10:30:08 <b_jonas> lol. today's first SMBC cracks me up http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pictograms
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10:40:06 <Hooloovo0> I guess it could be a very stylized one but pls
10:41:16 <Taneb> Hooloovo0, are you accusing Zach Weinersmith of being able to draw and choosing not to
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11:48:06 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: I think misrepresenting the visual appearance of chimps is a noble tradition from Irregular Webcomic.
11:48:11 <b_jonas> But yes, it doesn't look like a chimp.
11:50:38 <Hooloovo0> in the more technical sense o the term, that is
11:50:52 <b_jonas> Hooloovo0: maybe just a callback
11:51:24 <b_jonas> but more likely it's not intentional at all, only I'm connecting it, and Zach just doesn't care too much about drawing accurately as long as he can get the meaning through
11:51:47 <b_jonas> they're just funny comic strips, not some hard sci-fi stories
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18:32:42 <HackEgo> 1/2:brevity//syn. "shortness" \ iwc//iwc contains puns! Puns galore! Puns after puns after puns! Also science! \ cocoon//Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse. \ it'//It's written with an apostrophe. \ `fetch//`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It
18:32:46 <HackEgo> 2/2: is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
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19:06:35 <\oren\> ok, I think I'm getting to the bottom of this
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19:13:59 <\oren\> AAAAUAAUAGHH it froze again
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20:16:41 <wob_jonas> \oren\: bottom of what, and what froze? a drink?
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20:31:42 <mroman> battey went out during creation of my recovery stick.
20:32:02 <mroman> and this keyboard can't really tolerate fast writing.
20:32:35 <mroman> but it'll do for travelling I guess
20:34:10 <wob_jonas> mroman: whoa, what keyboard is that? Is it some really old device like a ZX Spectrum? Or some of this fancy modern software like Windows or mobile phone stuff that runs on fast modern hardware but still manages to have reaction times so slow that your keypresses appear on screen only a second later?
20:34:36 <wob_jonas> (Not that I haven't seen that happen on Linux too, but it's still certain bad software that causes that.)
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20:35:04 <wob_jonas> Anything in between can easily tolerate much faster writing than basically any human can manage.
20:36:14 <wob_jonas> I guess technically there's also old slow modems with a low communication throughput limit, and old typewriter terminals where the mechanics of the printer limit the speed, but even most of those are fast enough for typical human typing.
20:37:58 <mroman> wob_jonas: It's a mini notebook
20:38:27 <wob_jonas> unless your typing has to go through network without local echo
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20:39:50 <mroman> Im' probably not usde to hit this hard
20:40:07 <mroman> and my timing si probably of because hte distance between keys is'nt exaclty thes ame anymore
20:40:23 <mroman> but this si waht it look like if i try to type fash
20:40:43 <mroman> It's a very narrow keyboard.
20:41:40 <wob_jonas> my typing gets bad when I'm angry and doing heated debate flames on internet. you can sometimes see that on IRC, even on this channel. it doesn't quite look like that though.
20:42:30 <mroman> https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Medion-Akoya-E2215T-Convertible.188012.0.html <- a version of this one.
20:42:50 <wob_jonas> also, funnily, I have difficulty typing slowly. I think it's the centipede problem: I can type English just fine when I do it at the usual fast speed, but when I try to slow down to pay attention to the individual keypresses, I get all confused and forget how to type.
20:43:14 <wob_jonas> If I try to think of where each individual letter key is, I can only tell that very slowly, even though I press those letters in normal typing easily.
20:43:40 <mroman> it happens with pin codes for debit cards etc. as well
20:43:57 <wob_jonas> And passwords of other sorts, yes.
20:44:22 <wob_jonas> I also have difficulty walking slowly, or also walking anything between my two habitual walking paces, the normal fast one and a slower one.
20:44:42 <wob_jonas> They differ in movement, not only speed, which is why I can't just interpolate between.
20:45:14 <wob_jonas> (The slower pace is also slightly more difficult than the faster pace, at least dexterity wise, not necessarily in energy use.)
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20:45:49 <wob_jonas> wtf. they reskinned the library search webpage of FSzEK.
20:46:22 <wob_jonas> now it has these input boxes with custom borders, not just ordinary browser input controls with the height forced too small
20:47:06 <wob_jonas> I don't understand that stupid fashion. Even Wikipedia bought into it with checkboxes. I have just fine form controls in my fucking browser, there's no need to reimplement them with something worse.
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20:48:04 <wob_jonas> (At least the custom input boxes usually only differ in appearance, they still use the browser's normal text input. It's much worse when a websites reimplements even the behaviour of control, much worse than the browser.)
20:58:52 <mroman> YOU NEED JAVASCRIPT FORM CONTROLS
20:59:31 <mroman> Because they don't offer any functionality browsers implemented over the years
20:59:47 <mroman> such as remembering what you entered when you press backwards or F5
21:01:38 <wob_jonas> F5? wtf. you press alt-down to bring up the history dropdown. but the javascript implementations also do remember what you typed and offer suggestions, but often with a worse interface, and sometimes in a way that both the browser's dropdown and the custom one appears at the same time and conflict with each other when you try to choose an entry fro
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21:02:36 <wob_jonas> You press F5 for reloading the page. Or control-R. Either works in all current browsers, the two different shortcuts originate from some difference in two popular competing browsers ages ago.
21:03:59 <wob_jonas> That's also why you enter the address bar with either control-L (which straight up activates it) or F6 (which cycles between the webpage, the address bar, and the sidebar in typical Windows fashion).
21:04:47 <shachaf> My old laptop's keyboard would send F6 if you pressed three keys simultaneously.
21:04:51 <shachaf> I think it was either hjk or jkl
21:05:07 <wob_jonas> I have a crazy idea, related to esolang community
21:07:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: strangely, some keyboards or software start autorepeating a sequence of multiple letters if you hold down multiple letter keys long enough, so you get something like eg. "hkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkj". I could do it with even six letters in some configuration. This seems new to the last five years, and I don't understand why any
21:07:05 <wob_jonas> hw or sw would do that. Why would it autorepeat more than one key?
21:07:36 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Well, touchpads and touchscreens are now "multitouch"
21:07:42 <shachaf> So it makes sense to extend the same to keyboards.
21:08:05 <wob_jonas> Also, some keyboards just omit a key if you press certain combinations of too many keys at the same time and at least two of them aren't shift keys, but this is sort of an understandable limitation of the electronic wiring.
21:08:32 <mroman> f5 is refresh in pretty much all browsers.
21:08:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: typing all letters once when you press the keys simultaneously does make sense. It's autorepeating more than two that doesn't make sense to me.
21:09:34 <mroman> this notebook actually has touchscreen as well
21:09:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: in particular, I used a workstation where I couldn't type leftshift+capslock+backtick, which is where "Í" is assigned on my strange keyboard layout. Luckily that's a rare letter.
21:10:43 <mroman> but the keyboard is definitely a negative point.
21:11:07 <wob_jonas> saner keyboards and software, like this home machine I'm using now, doesn't do either. it allows basically any number of keys simultaneously, and doesn't try to autorepeat multiple keys at the same time
21:11:37 <wob_jonas> mroman: um, the keyboard is a negative point in that notebook in what sense?
21:11:49 <mroman> it's not sensitive enough.
21:12:08 <mroman> you can tap certain keys and they go down without registering a keystroke
21:12:14 <wob_jonas> (also, touchscreens for ordinary computers, eww, I hate those)
21:12:28 <mroman> so you need to press firmer and hold the key down a bit longer than on other keyboards.
21:12:42 <mroman> meaning typing at 120WPM really sucks with this keyboard.
21:12:54 <wob_jonas> (there's certain reasons to use it for some special applications, like in publically accessable terminals that anyone can access. even there I don't like them, but I admit they have some advantages.)
21:13:03 <mroman> by which I mean: you can't type over 80WPM on this keyboard.
21:13:24 <wob_jonas> mroman: "can tap certain keys and they go down without registering a keystroke" ouch. a keyboard shouldn't do that.
21:13:37 <wob_jonas> that's like mechanical typewriters
21:14:02 <wob_jonas> plug in an external keyboard as a workaround
21:14:26 <mroman> I think it only registers it if you press down exactly in the middle
21:14:48 <mroman> if I press on the corner it won't register anything.
21:15:06 <wob_jonas> how did you get that notebook? did your job lend it to you for work?
21:15:17 <mroman> I bought it in a store.
21:15:34 <mroman> so it's a really cheap one.
21:15:38 <wob_jonas> what does the keyboard feel like physically? is it like cheap normal computer keyboards, or horrible rubber keys, or something else?
21:16:12 <mroman> like a regular notebook keyboard.
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21:18:33 <mroman> And there's like 10GB usable space
21:18:38 <mroman> clerk said there's 20GB
21:19:18 <wob_jonas> is the storage device 20 GB but filled with 10 GB of junk that comes with the system installation or later automatic downloads and caches and temporary files and log files?
21:23:24 <mroman> need to analyse that first
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21:24:16 <wob_jonas> unless it has tricky firmware hiding some of the storage, in which case it's much harder
21:24:42 <mroman> this shit should be regulated
21:26:05 <wob_jonas> what shit? shipping mobile phones with software full of security hole, even when they aren't deliberate holes for bad reasons but just plain bad development, with updates that make the original android OS even worse, and with no support for downstream security updates later, or no support at all half a year after people buy the phone model?
21:26:43 <mroman> but bundling products with crap should be regulated yes
21:26:56 <mroman> like pre-installing useless crapware
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21:27:12 <mroman> or stuff like anti-virus products that can't be uninstalled
21:28:01 <mroman> I'd actually be in favor of prohibiting pre-installing anything EXCEPT the OS
21:28:43 <mroman> it's just a scam to push useless software to unknowing customers.
21:29:18 <wob_jonas> windows might be the same, I'm just less familiar with it than the android crap
21:30:18 <wob_jonas> luckily mostly only from other people's devices and second hand accounts. so far I've managed to avoid owning any of this smartphone stuff myself, and even my next phone, which I'll probably buy within a year, will be a non-smartphone
21:30:36 <wob_jonas> (I like my current phone, but electronics does age)
21:31:28 <wob_jonas> (Also now I want more realiability, so with how long this one lives, I might actually buy a new one BEFORE it breaks down or gets stolen, to avoid even a day of downtime.
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21:33:57 <mroman> but I already have a normal notebook
21:34:14 <mroman> so I didn't want to invest 1200CHF to buy a good mini notebook
21:34:23 <mroman> I just bought the cheapest one they had :D
21:35:38 <wob_jonas> sure, I understand not wanting to buy something more expensive. that's why I specifically said external keyboard as workaround, because that's both cheap and simple
21:35:54 <mroman> no space fo external keyboard :)
21:35:55 <wob_jonas> there's a huge market of external keyboards with lots of variation. obviously most of it is crap.
21:36:07 <wob_jonas> but keyboards are easier to test in shops than notebooks.
21:36:23 <wob_jonas> no space? like, holding the notebook in your lap on a train?
21:36:45 <mroman> this is going to be my travel notebook
21:37:13 <mroman> my backpack is now complete and ready
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21:37:34 <mroman> a bit on the heavy side though
21:37:35 <wob_jonas> I remember when I was traveling to the airport in Sweden this year, by train. The train had nice tables between the seats. Three people sat together with me, and all three were busy apparently working on a large notebook each.
21:37:53 <mroman> but temperatures are anywhere from -15 to +35C here
21:37:53 <wob_jonas> They didn't seem to know each other, so it looked as if everyone independently chose to work on the train.
21:38:02 <mroman> so I had to pack winter stuff as well
21:38:16 <wob_jonas> (Only the ones sitting close to me though, not everyone else on the train.)
21:39:07 <mroman> after my MRI I'm probably going to vanish for some time
21:39:10 <wob_jonas> When I travel within Hungary, I don't often see large notebooks. I see people pushing the touchscreen on tiny smartphone displays, with often a broken display.
21:39:18 <mroman> unless the MRI actually shows something.
21:39:38 <wob_jonas> I saw a girl with a nintendo DS on the bus at one point, it stuck in my memory because it was so unusual.
21:39:38 <mroman> but I don't have the will to go from doc to doc anymore.
21:40:12 <mroman> That's why I packed for every temperatue range.
21:40:13 <wob_jonas> you don't want to get yourself committed, do you?
21:40:37 <wob_jonas> you want to leave the environment of your normal home?
21:42:06 <mroman> what are you supposed to do otherwise?
21:42:27 <wob_jonas> and I don't know your circumstances
21:42:56 <wob_jonas> I can enjoy vanishing for a vacation, but only for two weeks or so
21:43:24 <mroman> I'm basically ill 3/4 of the time
21:43:31 <mroman> but it's not influenza
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21:43:50 <mroman> so I have very reduced capacity to actually do stuff
21:44:02 <wob_jonas> someone from our school had enough of everything at some point and suddenly vanished into Nepal, herding yaks on a bicycle or something, and returned a year later. or something. that's a bit distorted version of the rumour, but still.
21:44:06 <mroman> which means rather poor quality of life
21:44:16 <wob_jonas> yeah, I also have that, but not that badly
21:44:31 <wob_jonas> slightly ill all the time, seriously ill twice a year, reduced work capacity during
21:45:02 <wob_jonas> just took a four month long leave from work, but didn't really vanish, not from work, not from my family or the internet
21:45:11 <wob_jonas> (not for longer than a week at once at least)
21:45:39 <wob_jonas> I'm too stressed, and also don't do enough sports and healthy eating and all that stuff, and it's a self-reinforcing bad cycle
21:45:56 <mroman> also preinstalled software is usually demo 30 days
21:45:59 <wob_jonas> after a while I get overweight, which makes my health worse, my future health expectations much worse, but also makes it more difficult to break the habits and do more sports
21:46:03 <mroman> but it's not removed after 30 days
21:46:15 <mroman> it'll consume ressources even after that
21:46:18 <wob_jonas> it's seriously worrying me, but hard to change
21:46:21 <mroman> and that should be even more illegal.
21:46:55 <wob_jonas> I hope at least you also do have a family supporting you, and that you don't vanish from them at least
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21:46:59 <mroman> It's like I only have 20% of my cognitive potential avalable
21:47:12 <mroman> no family suppoting me
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21:47:53 <wob_jonas> yes, my memory and mind is getting worse. that's the really scary part, from the inside even more so than from the outside I think, because my family and coworkers can see how I'm fat and unhealthy and can't work as much, but I see that and also how I can't think normally
21:48:15 <wob_jonas> I'm not saying my family isn't a "weird relationship", but their support still means a lot for me
21:48:29 <wob_jonas> if you have no family, then you should strive to make one, even if they're not blood relations
21:48:56 <mroman> I can hardly look my parents in the eyes
21:49:02 <mroman> and sometimes I can't talk to them
21:49:11 <mroman> as in: selective mutism can't talk
21:49:26 <wob_jonas> original family is great default in some cases, but I mostly care about them too because they care about me, all they did for me in the past when they were younger and more able to help, but also how they always try support me now as much as they can
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21:49:58 <mroman> and I can't be comitted :D
21:50:23 <wob_jonas> that... can be difficult. I hope they can work it around. my mother always seems to somehow correctly guess most of what happens to me, even if I try to not tell everything. it's hard to prove, but I think he has some secret superpowers.
21:50:31 <wob_jonas> (the rest of my family doesn't have that)
21:51:14 <wob_jonas> I hope you at least have enough money to be able to support yourself for a break from work while you regenerate yourself
21:51:22 <mroman> my last clinic stay gave me PTSD
21:51:26 <wob_jonas> I simply couldn't keep up working all the time
21:51:40 <mroman> they'd have a _really_ hard time keeping me there.
21:52:09 <wob_jonas> mroman: wait, so you say you can't be committed because staying in the clinic has a terrible effect on you? I don't think that's how institution works, but I don't really know
21:52:23 <wob_jonas> not that I don't believe you can't be committed, only that reason seems odd
21:52:48 <mroman> any doctor can legally committ any random person for 24h no questions asked
21:53:37 <mroman> the questios is whether any random person would comply.
21:53:51 <wob_jonas> also, thanks for telling about your situation, it (and other stories on #esoteric ) shows me I'm not alone in some sense
21:54:03 <mroman> theoreticaly the police can enforce admission of course
21:54:24 <wob_jonas> as for that, I don't know how they keep people in against their will, but they seem good at it. maybe that only works for certain types of people.
21:54:42 <alercah> mroman: are you open to a discussion by PM?
21:55:24 <wob_jonas> well, technically, I do have some ideas from certain terrible stories my mother told about people who really had to be kept in for a good reason, but I mostly blocked them from my mind
21:55:41 <wob_jonas> I try not to pay too much attention to most details of my mother's work, it has a bad effect
21:56:08 <wob_jonas> I only listen to the part of how it affects her outside her works, like a certain workplace accident when he got his hand bitten, strongly, by a kid
21:56:33 <wob_jonas> and how overloaded she is with her work because she just can't stop accepting more and more work all the time
22:02:41 <wob_jonas> http://dlib.net/ => oh wow. this sounds nice. if it actually lives up to those promises in the front page, then I'll like this library. it reminds me to other well maintained software that I also like.
22:03:47 <wob_jonas> (some other such software are http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/ and http://sqlite.org/ . if you already know this dlib thing, and like it, check out those.)
22:07:54 <wob_jonas> wtf, did they change the shortcut for the bookmark manager too? I swear firefox keeps scrambling keyboard shortcuts lately. they've changed the shortcut for the download list twice, between control-J, control-Y, and control-shift-something, and now the bookmarks
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23:00:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: wait, I wanted to tell about my stupid esolang idea
23:01:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:01:45 <wob_jonas> basically I was thinking of creating an esolang parody of bad esolangs that some people create and write about on the wiki.
23:02:56 <ais523> wob_jonas: Statistical Brainfuck is basically that, but I never got round to writing it
23:03:11 <ais523> it's basically BF only it infers the commands in use via analysing the program
23:03:18 <wob_jonas> I'll try to use a lot of the bad tropes, such as no really eso features, missing computation power such as not enough control structures or not enough memory access, and also a bad attempt of an implementation that supports only the easier half of the language features, crippling it even more, sometimes fails to match the documentation, and has bug
23:03:18 <wob_jonas> s and bad coding that clearly shows the creator doesn't know how to implement interpreters (this part might be hard for me, I'm not saying I write good code, but it's hard to deliberately write code bad in that way)
23:03:19 <ais523> and if it can't figure it out, prints "Hello, world!".
23:03:52 <ais523> the easiest way to write a "language from someone who can't write interpreters" is to have no form of control flow at all
23:04:01 <ais523> all the commands run in sequence, then the program ends
23:05:07 <wob_jonas> Also I won't learn Java or C# for just this, even though it would be realistic to write the interpreter in that, and I also won't unlearn C++ to imitate the horrible C++ styles found online, but I'll still try to do justice to using an unsuitable programming language and the wrong features of that langugae.
23:05:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: write it in C with a .cpp extension
23:05:39 <ais523> that should be close enough
23:05:56 <ais523> and is fairly easy to do even if you're a good programmer
23:06:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that can work, but if I do that, then either I can't write an interpreter at all, or I'll have to write an interpreter that's not obviously lacking important features of the language. that could be more realstic, but also more boring
23:06:18 <ais523> Python could also work, if you know it
23:06:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, those are options. I was also thinking of using C or pascal with some vague label like "Pascal 5.0" that suggests some old DOS interpreter.
23:08:01 <ais523> what about some proprietary language which is very similar to a more widely used free language?
23:08:09 <ais523> only I don't know many examples of those nowadays
23:08:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: I do know a little mathematica and maple and matlab, which may be enough to write bad code, but I'm not sure how realistic it would be for a newbie to use those to write interpreters
23:09:19 <Taneb> wob_jonas, how about visual basic
23:09:23 <wob_jonas> I can also write C or C++ that only works in microsoft compilers
23:09:29 <ais523> oh, yes, visual basic works perfectly for this
23:09:40 <ais523> and you can learn the relevant parts in like 5 minutes if you don't know it already
23:09:44 <ais523> (spending any more time would defeat the purpose)
23:09:55 <ais523> C using conio.h would also make sense
23:10:06 <wob_jonas> Taneb: eww. I mean, I can write bad basic, I used to, even in visual basic, but I would feel so dirty from that as if I wrote php
23:11:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: pascal with turbo/borland pascal's crt library is sort of the same as conio from turbo/borland c, only older and that much simpler (turbo pascal is actually a non-optimizing compiler), and was quite popular in the days when people used turbo pascal in DOS for education, and those days haven't completely ended yet
23:12:06 <ais523> <wob_jonas> (turbo pascal is actually a non-optimizing compiler) ← now I'm even more confused and worried about how when, years ago, I rewrote a Turbo Pascal program in C and it got slower
23:12:19 <wob_jonas> mind you, it was a good IDE and library for the context it was made for
23:12:26 <ais523> was there something massively wrong with the library I was using, or something massively wrong with my code?
23:13:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: turbo C is an optimizing compiler, but that's basically like a non-optimizing compiler today. sort of like how C is a low-level language now, but was a high level language forty years ago
23:13:29 <wob_jonas> serious projects used assembly for all the performance-critical code
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23:14:27 <wob_jonas> it was easier to mix with C than even now, because there was good support for assembly in the IDEs and debuggers, good support for inline assembly, the compilers had simple ABIs, and the CPU and OS was simpler so optimized assembly prorgamming was easier to learn
23:15:02 <wob_jonas> which of course means that most of the assembly programs written back then are worse than what you'd write in C++ today, with some exceptions of master programmers, but still, it was useful at the time
23:15:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm trying and failing to remember the precise C compiler I used
23:16:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: what target platform? MS-DOS? win16 on x86? win32 on x86?
23:16:05 <ais523> also, ABIs are /still/ simple when the signature of the function is simple
23:16:31 <ais523> and I know the computer it was on was running either Windows 95 or Windows 98, but I don't know the platform of the executable, although it was probably a DOS executable
23:17:26 <wob_jonas> turbo C and borland C did support win16 as a target, but few people learned that because then you have to learn a lot about win16 system programming first and get familiar with the libraries
23:17:48 <ais523> win16 was my "main" target platform for several years
23:18:01 <wob_jonas> good GUIs are still hard, and it was even harder when you HAD to support cooperative multitasking with no memory protection
23:18:02 <ais523> when it stopped working, I ended up switching to Linux rather than trying to get win32 to work
23:18:20 <ais523> (part of the reason behind this is that my compiler had problems making win32 code, possibly due to bitrot)
23:18:35 <\oren\> Cringe! https://scontent.fwaw3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21317927_870196236467487_2502978163715573443_n.jpg?oh=0036232e6f91b8a0c522171488267087&oe=5A1901C7
23:18:53 <ais523> win16 + GDI wasn't too bad when you were used to it, anyway, although my programming style was shocking back then
23:18:59 <ais523> or maybe not shocking, just unsuitable for Windows
23:19:26 <ais523> I typically put the entire program logic into the repaint handler, then had a timer to repaint the window at short intervals
23:19:29 <wob_jonas> actually, when did it stop working? I stopped using win16 programs before windows dropped support, but I know win95 OSR2 runs the non-unicode win16 programs winword 2 and 6 and excel 5 fine, and I seem to remember they still ran on win32
23:19:40 <ais523> which is actually how most old games consoles work (although I didn't know that at the time), but is very out of place on PC
23:20:05 <ais523> wob_jonas: even in windows 98 some of the APIs didn't work
23:20:09 <wob_jonas> or do you mean compilers and libraries stopped supporting win16 programming, as opposed to windows stopped supporting running windows programs?
23:20:10 <ais523> like the one to play music through the PC speaker
23:20:19 <pikhq> Technically, it never did stop working -- Windows 10 *still* supports Win16, if you're on x86, not x86_64.
23:20:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: I know some of the old APIs didn't work, but those came up in very old win16 programs from before windows 3 (seriously) or older DOS programs
23:20:40 <pikhq> That said, I imagine stuff only *kinda* works these days.
23:20:44 <ais523> I had to move onto MDI instead which is a pain because on our Windows 98 configuration, attempting to load a MIDI file with MDI caused a freeze of tens of seconds
23:21:08 <ais523> (although oddly, if you played one through Windows Media Player, the freeze happened when the file looped for the first time rather than when it was initially loaded)
23:21:23 <wob_jonas> pikhq: yes, but it's sometimes easier to just run those programs in a full virtual machine
23:21:31 <ais523> I worked around this by preloading all the MIDI files during a loading screen at the start but it meant that the program took ages to load
23:21:56 <ais523> Windows XP reduced this to about a second per file, so it was much more reasonable (although still seems ridiculously large given how simple a MIDI file should be to load)
23:22:15 <ais523> also, IIRC MDI used a "command-line" API where you called a function and passed a string to it describing what you want to do
23:22:34 <ais523> rather than using separate functions which each had their own arguments
23:22:44 <ais523> and I may have the name of the library wrong, it was ages ago
23:23:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, I can imagine the graphics and sound stuff used mostly by games stopped working earlier. that wasn't really MS's target to support. although some of that is because the DOS (and even nominally win16) programs used direct hardware stuff, not documented APIs, for speed and flexibility, and those are much harder to emulate than APIs that
23:23:01 <wob_jonas> reasonably designed wrt future compatibility
23:23:53 <wob_jonas> "I had to move onto MDI instead which is a pain because on our Windows 98 configuration, attempting to load a MIDI file with MDI caused a freeze of tens of seconds" => hehe, that totally sounds believable. for that era, and for today also
23:24:29 <wob_jonas> "by preloading all the MIDI files during a loading screen" => wait, it froze for loading EACH midi file? that's even worse
23:24:45 <wob_jonas> couldn't you work it around by loading just one big midi file and playing sections?
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23:25:52 <wob_jonas> "also, IIRC MDI used a "command-line" API where you called a function and passed a string to it describing what you want to do" => we use the euphemism "domain-specific language" rather than "command line" for APIs like that
23:26:13 <wob_jonas> they still exist these days, and are sometimes good but sometimes terrible
23:27:02 <wob_jonas> a reasonably good example is SQLite, where most of the API is SQL statements, and people keep asking for a more direct C api for many functions, but the devs wisely don't add such a thing, because that would make future compatibility much harder
23:28:31 <wob_jonas> a bad example is G'MIC's api, although I don't know enough about it to be sure. it involves syntax horror with impossible quoting of the like cmd and powershell could envy.
23:28:39 <wob_jonas> and it can access files from the file system.
23:30:02 <wob_jonas> you might also count cases where an interpreter was first and an API was added as an afterthought but the API wasn't designed, it just evolved from trying to hack the interpreter. perl is the classical example, but I seem to remember there was a few more like that.
23:31:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm not sure what controlled the duration of the freeze, it might have been that a large file froze for logner
23:31:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: SQLite does have a direct C API for many of its functions
23:32:02 <wob_jonas> perl 6 has an overdesigned impossible to implement API with second system effect, completely unlike the rest of the language, because the designer for that is a different person from Larry who has the vision for the language proper)
23:32:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: direct C api for many of the auxiliary functions, but not for the database table accesses, which would be sort of the main point
23:34:27 <wob_jonas> also while it tries hard to pretend that it has a complete API for writing new SQL functions, there are actually a few things that the builtin functions can do but that are impossible with the public API. I asked about one or two of this, and it's by design, because they couldn't figure out a good enough API for that functionality yet, so they'll r
23:34:27 <wob_jonas> ather not add bad APIs that will constrain future compat.
23:37:09 <wob_jonas> in particular, MIN and MAX magically compare text values (character strings, they just use a strange term) with the collating function appropriate for the column, when the documented API makes that impossible
23:37:49 <wob_jonas> there's also a few builtin optimizations for MIN and MAX, but then those are transparent optimizations so that's OK
23:38:54 <wob_jonas> anyway, if I create such a parody, I'll try to create a new user account on the esowiki for it, with a little background personality story, and perhaps call it fungot
23:38:55 <fungot> wob_jonas: this, my friends, is the malaise of the glutton at life's buffet, building complicaters? domino frustraters? wobbley times u.s.a.? um, maybe if i told his jokes
23:39:52 <Phantom_Hoover> wob_jonas, isn't perl 6 basically an elaborate esolang in the intercal tradition by now
23:39:52 <wob_jonas> fungot: yes, and some of the things they promise are actually physically impossible. it is starting to sound like one of those pseudoscience products actually
23:39:52 <fungot> wob_jonas: this is a very common fantasy among children played hopscotch! maybe! i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. they'll just go somewhere else.
23:40:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://glyphic.s3.amazonaws.com/ozone/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg
23:40:49 <wob_jonas> And I should try to hide some specific community in-jokes or references in the text too
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23:41:14 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: yes, I can see why it's like an esolang, it's just the Intercal part that I don't understand
23:41:35 <Phantom_Hoover> well intercal's philosophy was 'be a bizarre reflection of a serious language'
23:42:02 <wob_jonas> oh, and some of the perl6 features it has are very impractical to interpret even programs that sparesly use them, like computed come from
23:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas the vast majority of esolangs are along the brainfuck/befunge tradition of 'be some utterly weird model of computation'
23:42:55 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: but it doesn't look like a reflection of any language to me. quite the opposite, it seems a very unique language in its feature set and design, different from everything else I've seen, it's just that the feature set and design is terrible
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23:45:48 <wob_jonas> perl6 has some parts of utterly weird model of computation, such as how it stores data. you can imagine it as a parody of perl5, where in perl5 it occured mostly from historical compatibility and different features trying to have different models utterly incompatible with each other, as in DWIM scalars a la perl/bash/tcl versus scalars that know th
23:45:48 <wob_jonas> eir dynamical type a la python/ruby; in perl6 it's a straight up design without much historical compatibility reasons that ends up looking like a bad parody.
23:45:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i've never looked into perl 6 too deeply b/c it was always too incomprehensible in my 'learn all the languages' phase
23:46:13 <wob_jonas> sure, I didn't look at it deeply either
23:46:36 <wob_jonas> and I'm actively avoiding it now, sort of like how I avoid PHP
23:47:41 <wob_jonas> the difference is that PHP has a bad history like C++ and has actually improved a lot in recent versions, slowly turning into a good language, but with most of the code monkeys using it still using all the bad programming practices they learn from past bad code examples and old books;
23:49:29 <wob_jonas> I'm not avoiding PHP because it's such a bad language, but because I have a superstition that the four big p languages (perl, ruby, python and php) are mutually incompatible in that any one person must choose at most three unless they want to tempt fate, and I already know too much about perl, ruby, and python.
23:50:05 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: I don't remember. I managed to deliberately forget most of the specific knowledge I acquired about perl 6. I'm happier not knowing now.
23:50:16 <wob_jonas> It's possible that the scalars aren't the problem.
23:50:45 <wob_jonas> I only retained the general warning sign reasons so that I know why I shouldn't revisit it ever.
23:50:56 <wob_jonas> You know, to avoid the "how bad can it be" thing
23:51:48 <wob_jonas> but it's not easy to suppress stuff, which is why I have to completely avoid the language or else the suppressed memories might resurface
23:55:07 <wob_jonas> wait wait. how can a modern library provide a portable thread abstraction and at the same time have structures with non-threadsafe reference counting. that makes no sense.
23:55:44 <wob_jonas> atomic refcounts are not hard to implement these days, there are tons of other code you can copy from if you want the portability, and they're almost always just as fast as non-threadsafe refcounts if there's no contention of multiple threads accessing the same refcount close to the same time, with the unusual exception when there's page tear
23:56:27 <wob_jonas> cache line tear as in different threads accessing different parts of a cache line with at least one writing
23:56:59 <wob_jonas> and even with cache line tear you don't lose much performance compared to non-threadsafe code
23:57:08 <wob_jonas> maybe you don't lose any, I'm not sure
23:57:19 <wob_jonas> it's just that cache line tear already loses you performance, no matter what
23:57:38 <wob_jonas> you just have to avoid it, just like you avoid unaligned objects that pass through a cache line boundary
23:58:07 <wob_jonas> both are simply technologically impossible to support efficiently, there's nothing to do but avoid them whenever performance matters
23:59:51 <wob_jonas> but most of the time they're easy to avoid: just align all objects, and use a memory allocator that's reasonably threading aware. if you do that, then you usually have to do specifically stupid things as in disabling the safety that's already there to get misalignment, and typically have to do design that already has bad performance to get cache li
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00:05:05 <wob_jonas> sorry for the rant, it's annoying. I should set up a blog where I put all the stupid rants I talk about all the time
00:10:45 <\oren\> pholy fuck this code is so poisonous it causes the debugger itself to lock up
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00:13:48 <\oren\> like I can set a break point at line 180, and hit continue, and then gdb will output its prompt, and THEN the system locks up
00:21:26 <\oren\> I can step through this part of the code, but not continue through it
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01:15:56 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
01:16:02 <fungot> wob_jonas: hey, t-rex, i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. ready... set... go! on to, but i don't like them, you have to be wacky to go on a walk!
01:16:03 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
01:30:55 <fungot> oerjan: and that is good, but now each of them has met their maker.
01:30:56 <HackEgo> 2/42: please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys) \ 57) <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" \ 80) <AnMaster>
01:31:11 <fungot> oerjan: oh, t-rex, i'm not sure i should do this" they'd say, and hey presto, you're a muslim! bears do it, but the more they'll find you
01:31:12 <HackEgo> 695) <fungot> elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world
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01:39:06 <fungot> ATMunn: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. everything is similar but different! everybody i know gets to write one chapter, and they don't do anything they might regret before they get married, and have children! the only career she wants to spend a friday as weekend, why not monday too?
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02:46:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53053&oldid=53051 * Raumaankidwai * (+61)
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03:49:59 <oerjan> everyone knows SIGABRT smoking is lethal
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11:56:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53054&oldid=50433 * SuperJedi224 * (+51)
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13:23:31 <HackEgo> [U+2580 UPPER HALF BLOCK] [U+2584 LOWER HALF BLOCK]
13:23:39 <izabera> where is middle half block?
13:24:28 <b_jonas> izabera: I don't think there's one. these two are for drawing block graphics.
13:26:36 <izabera> yeah but i wanted to draw a line that's half as high as a normal line and i wanted it in the middle
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13:33:40 <b_jonas> well, graphics is sometimes good at drawing lines, although there are kinds of graphics that isn't, such as tile+sprite graphics
13:34:48 <FireFly> not really the same thing, but it's vertically centred and ~the right size
13:35:30 <FireFly> I know, I know, abusing Braille glyphs as monochrome bitmap-drawing chars…
13:40:42 <HackEgo> [U+2501 BOX DRAWINGS HEAVY HORIZONTAL]
13:42:03 <b_jonas> that doesn't have much font support though
13:42:27 <b_jonas> because ▄ is in cp437 and similar
13:42:47 <FireFly> Is one of ▀ or ▄ more commonly supported than the other?
13:43:15 <FireFly> I usually use ▀ when I want to draw blocky graphics in programs, so that fg = top pixel, bg = bottom pixel
13:44:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: no, except that the commodore 64 video always has 128 normal displayable characters and 128 inverse images of those, so one of them is in the lower half and one in the upper half, but that shouldn't matter much. also on some displays one of them might be a pixel higher than the other.
13:44:16 <b_jonas> (if the character grid is an odd pixel height)
13:45:13 <FireFly> I think all my fonts have had character grids of even height, heh (usually the height of capital letters is odd, though)
13:45:27 <FireFly> as in, the ones I've designed, not ones I've used
13:45:53 <b_jonas> (it also has at least two different charsets of 128 chars that you can toggle for the whole screen easily, but that doesn't matter)
13:46:18 <FireFly> b_jonas: have you seen https://hackaday.com/2016/12/15/character-generation-in-144-bytes/ btw? since you're interested in bitmap fonts and it's a kinda #esoteric thing wrt them
13:49:04 <FireFly> It's a cool idea to design a font that can be stored in a tiny space by re-using tiles between glyphs
13:50:08 <b_jonas> FireFly: I haven't. I have written a DOS COM program that loads a 16x9 VGA font I drew, but it only bothers to load the 95 printable ASCII characters or so, plus the 18 accented Hungarian letters,
13:51:07 <b_jonas> the table for ASCII font is stored raw in the COM file so that's like 95*16 bytes, but then the 18 accented ones have only the scanlines of the accents stored, and it generates them procedurally.
13:51:25 <FireFly> When I drew a bitmap font recently inspired by that hackaday post, I only bothered with uppercase, digits and a few punctuation characters
13:51:31 <FireFly> not even full printable-ASCII coverage
13:51:51 <b_jonas> Neither the compression scheme nor the code isn't too optimized though, partly because it's already small enough, and partly because I didn't know better.
13:52:09 <b_jonas> As for "bothered with", well, that one isn't a particularly good font.
13:52:35 <b_jonas> fecupboard20, the 10x20 font that I made later, is much better
13:52:37 <FireFly> reminds me of how ^~`'", in ASCII acted as diacritics too, via overstriking
13:52:48 <FireFly> Yeah, I have a copy of fecupboard20 somewhere
13:52:51 <b_jonas> FireFly: only for printers. that isn't possible on video terminals.
13:53:41 <FireFly> I should make a page collecting my bitmap fonts… and provide them in more useful formats
13:55:04 <FireFly> b_jonas: https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984 this was what I ended up with when I designed a font with the "re-use tiles" constraint from the hackaday post btw (it's bad as a programming font since 0=O, 1=I, 5=S, but intended for demo-y contexts where size matters)
13:55:25 <b_jonas> FireFly: that would be nice
13:56:12 <FireFly> Yeah, currently my fonts are only provided in… ummm… my own "bitmap font format", which is really just a convenient way for me to edit it as a png
13:58:07 <b_jonas> FireFly: I don't know how that compares to a COM file, but then for the two fonts I put in a COM file I later also extracted to headerless raw VGA font format
13:58:15 <b_jonas> so that I can load them on Linux console too
13:59:04 <FireFly> I mostly just like designing fonts with harsh constraints placed on the design
13:59:11 <FireFly> like very harsh size constrains, for instance
14:00:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: this is the 9x16 VGA font in the smaller COM file: http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/stickfont-screenshot0.png
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14:00:49 <b_jonas> and it is sort of constrained to have only hollow lines,
14:00:49 <FireFly> I think I would fill in the vertical lines rather than backboard-bold it
14:01:04 <b_jonas> sure, that would look better. this one isn't really a readable text font
14:01:15 <FireFly> Yeah, more presentational?
14:01:19 <b_jonas> it's rather a fancy heading font, which I know makes no sense in VGA text mode
14:01:26 <b_jonas> it doesn't really have a good purpose
14:01:40 <b_jonas> it was just something I made back when I had lots of time for stupid experiments but less experience
14:02:11 <b_jonas> the * character look s particularly ugly, I tried to redraw it several times but couldn't get anything reasonable
14:02:57 <FireFly> I made a new lowercase for a 8×4px-tile font (7×3px size for capital letters), making the lowercase one pixel smaller, but more consistent in size across letters
14:03:17 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2017-09-08_141818.png
14:03:21 <b_jonas> that tiled font you made looks quite nice though
14:03:39 <FireFly> Yeah, I'm pretty content with it
14:03:56 <FireFly> I was thinking it'd look okay in a game (I had this js13kgames competition in mind when I made it)
14:04:47 <b_jonas> the other font I made was actually usable as a terminal font. it was fecupboard18, which only ever had 256 characters of coverage, and I never distributed it because of copyright reasons:
14:05:12 <b_jonas> I made most of it by combining characters from three or four existing 16x9 VGA terminal fonts, picking whichever I liked the best,
14:05:19 <b_jonas> and edited only a few characters specifically
14:06:00 <b_jonas> Fecupboard20 started as a sort of successor, but completely copyright laundered, but it grew to have a rather different visual style, and much more character coverage eventually
14:06:47 <b_jonas> Fecupboard20 also originally had only 256 characters (and a lot of them were just copies of other characters), and even now the ASCII part is way more mature than the little non-ASCII coverage it has
14:06:59 <b_jonas> it still both has too few characters, and some of the non-ASCII stuff is REALLY ugly
14:07:03 <FireFly> Most of my fonts cover only printable ASCII + assorted glyphs that I found interesting to draw
14:07:13 <b_jonas> the whole greek letters part should be thrown out and redone from scratch for example
14:07:37 <FireFly> I think only oneof my fonts cover greek
14:07:44 <b_jonas> FireFly: fecupboard20 covers printable ASCII plus assorted glyphs that I found interesting to *display*
14:08:05 <FireFly> Yeah, that's probably more useful :P
14:08:07 <b_jonas> FireFly: this doesn't cover greek, it only has the basic greek alphabet intended for simple mathematical formulas
14:08:51 <b_jonas> entirely unsuitable for greek text
14:09:22 <b_jonas> if I want to add language coverage, I'd add more latin letters and russian before I even tried to draw greek
14:09:50 <b_jonas> both because greek is less useful, I rarely try to read or write greek text, I only use greek letters for maths formulas,
14:10:08 <b_jonas> and because greek is slightly harder to draw if you want it actually nice-looking
14:10:16 <FireFly> Hm, honestly I don't know if my greek is good for greek text
14:10:25 <b_jonas> not that cyrillic is easy to draw either
14:10:33 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/7x5px-font.png
14:10:46 <FireFly> the height is probably awfully off for my greek lowercase here
14:10:53 <FireFly> well, awfully inconsistent
14:10:57 <b_jonas> obviously supporting greek text is nice and possible, but not in a font that only covers like 2000 characters
14:11:28 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/9x5px-font.png oh I guess this one has greek too
14:11:29 <b_jonas> FireFly: wow, that actually has greek letters!
14:11:44 <b_jonas> and I don't think you made it up on the fly as I mentioned it, that would be too fast, you probably already had it
14:12:48 <FireFly> 9x5px has the same x-height as 9x5px, so a lot of the glyphs are shared between them
14:12:57 <FireFly> Just more space for ascenders/descenders
14:12:58 <b_jonas> and it actually looks like acceptable greek letter glyphs to me too
14:13:10 <FireFly> 2px for each rather than 1px for each (1px ascender/descender is really tiny :P)
14:13:23 <b_jonas> "9x5px has the same x-height as 9x5px," huh?
14:13:32 <b_jonas> what's the difference between those two?
14:14:12 <b_jonas> well yes. 8x16 and 9x16 would share like a third of the characters too, but I never really tried to make a 8x16 font.
14:14:28 <FireFly> the 7x5px-font.png has 5px x-height, 1px for asc/desc (thus, 7px space reserved for letters), the 9x5px-font.png has 5px x-height and 2px for asc/desc
14:14:39 <b_jonas> there didn't seem a point, with vertical screen estate always more precious than horizontal screen estate
14:15:56 <FireFly> I mean, I like having terminals open side-by-side, but would still want 80-90 chars' width
14:16:12 <FireFly> if, say, having files open in vim or so
14:17:09 <b_jonas> FireFly: there are also 5+x7+ and 5+x8+ and x8+ fonts with no space allocated for descenders and 5 pixel x height, where the + means it's shown on displays with gap between the fixed character cells, and the x8+ is variable width shown on single-line pixel displays on information boards
14:18:59 <FireFly> My tiniest fonts (3px and 4px high) are variable-width out of necessity… (also, are really uppercase-only/don't cover full printable-ASCII)
14:19:05 <b_jonas> on modern large TFTs, you now get to do that with 9px width, even if we didn't on older 1024px wide TFT and good CRT monitors
14:19:19 <FireFly> Well, the 4px-high font *has* a lowercase but it's awful and I know it's awful
14:19:23 <FireFly> I wouldn't actually use ti
14:19:42 <b_jonas> (for some worse CRT monitors, 1024px wide had too many rows and wouldn't display nicely, and video cards didn't have enough memory for high color depth at 1024x width)
14:20:49 <b_jonas> yeah, that was back when the choice between 4, 8, 16, 24 bits of color depth was a real problem, and lots of software had to have extra code for supporting reasonable graphics at lower color depths
14:21:12 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/4px-font.png ← there are some horribly awful glyphs here (# & { } come to mind)
14:21:42 <b_jonas> these days the difficulty is the opposite: lots of software don't yet have enough support for more than 8 bit per channel color depth, but more and more applications have real need for such high color depth per channel
14:22:03 <b_jonas> this isn't only for display, but also for graphics editing without displaying the high color depth
14:22:52 <FireFly> It's a bit unfortunate that we have kind of settled on 8 bits per channel as defacto standard
14:23:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: I have tried to draw some tiny fonts, but they never really worked so I don't have anything actually finished, and even those had a pixel for ascender
14:23:51 <b_jonas> at those small sizes you're best at trying to draw a font that has letter shapes rather different from traditional printed ones, readable only after practice
14:24:06 <b_jonas> some crazy people do that even for larger sizes
14:24:17 <b_jonas> that's a type of crazyness that isn't too far from me
14:24:48 <b_jonas> even fecupboard20 has characters that are deliberately uglier for easier proofreading, because it's a terminal font, not a typographic font
14:25:13 <FireFly> I really dislike… inconsistencies like having lowercase letters at uppercase size (so x-height = full height) or using lowercase n as uppercase, but I think when working with extreme constraints it can be okay
14:25:31 <b_jonas> but I have more restraints in going against the typographical traditions than to do something much more radical than that
14:25:38 <FireFly> b_jonas: oh, "sufficiently distinct glyphs" is certainly a fine thing to keep in mind when designing a font
14:25:54 <FireFly> that reminds me of some of the fonts designed specifically for signage
14:26:04 <b_jonas> FireFly: sure, but still there's a difference between one intended for proofreading and one intended for easy reading
14:26:16 <b_jonas> "signage"? what does that mean?
14:26:46 <b_jonas> is that when you try to make printed text that's hard to modify (for either forging or defacing) by drawing some extra lines in pen
14:26:53 <FireFly> I mean, for traffic signs and such
14:27:22 <FireFly> Or car plates, where having distinct glyphs for different characters/digits is important
14:27:34 <b_jonas> isn't that just normal readable fonts that try to be readable from faraway in bad vision conditions, rather than from close like books? you do sans serif with thick lines for that, but still make it nice looking
14:27:56 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, yes, but e.g. I recall some font where the Q had some quirks to make it more distinct from an O
14:28:09 <b_jonas> I don't know what to think about car reg plates, because different countries use SO VERY different style fonts that I can't really imagine why
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14:28:30 <b_jonas> and it's not just because of a difference in the set of characters used
14:28:38 <FireFly> like intentionally exaggerating the space surrounding tail of the Q to make it extra clear at a distance
14:28:54 <FireFly> (the tail being separated with paddingn from the circle)
14:29:00 <FireFly> err, I'm not describing this well :p
14:29:03 <b_jonas> because that can explain a few changes, like some countries have Ö and Ä in license plates
14:29:46 <b_jonas> FireFly: meh, they do that with the Q even in some print fonts. it makes sense because it's a capital letter in text that's not all-caps.
14:30:07 <b_jonas> reg plates are all uppercase, and road signs have some all-caps text
14:31:39 <b_jonas> Q is one of those letters that's rare enough in most text that fonts designers use it to try to make their font different from others. the other such character is &
14:32:25 <FireFly> I ended up with a somewhat Quake-like Q in that tile-based font :p with the tail being vertically centred and vertical
14:32:38 <FireFly> That was mainly for tile re-use purposes though
14:32:42 <b_jonas> If a text says "Q&A", that's a great help for identifying an unknown font.
14:32:57 <b_jonas> hmm... I should put "Q&A" in font specimens
14:33:00 <FireFly> Ampersands are tricky to draw
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14:33:13 <FireFly> I've never liked mine much
14:34:15 <b_jonas> straight vertical tail in Q is fine, you can just say it's a long tradition going back to the phoenician alphabet. font designers always respect tradition.
14:34:28 <b_jonas> but then, any style of Q is fine, and any style of & too, that's the whole point
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14:40:05 <FireFly> of course, ideally the style is somewhat consistent across glyphs
14:41:08 <FireFly> b_jonas: re. fecupboard18, I recall reading that in the US bitmap fonts specifically aren't copyrightable because glyphs are small and so it's hard to claim originality/several people can draw the same glyph
14:41:30 <FireFly> Which is a bit interesting (and I think I disagree with it, but partially agree… blah, it's a tricky area)
14:42:14 <FireFly> like at some point if you approach extremely tiny sizes, it's inevitable that the same glyphs get drawn the same way independently
14:42:34 <b_jonas> FireFly: it's possible that they aren't copyrightable, I'm not sure, but since it's not a particularly good font, nor one unique enough that someone would need that one in particular rather than any of the plethora of already available x16 video fonts (many of them clearly free of copyright), I didn't want to decide.
14:42:57 <b_jonas> If someone wants to take a look at it without distributing it, I can give it to them personally, but I don't think it's valuable enough.
14:43:19 <b_jonas> It's just a combination from multiple similar fonts according to whatever I liked at that time. I don't even like it much anymore.
14:43:44 <b_jonas> fecupboard20 is different, some people apart from me actually seem to like it
14:43:57 <b_jonas> and there's much fewer choice in decent x20 bitmap fonts
14:44:31 <b_jonas> I couldn't just combine it from existing fonts with small modifications, because I didn't know of any good enough fonts similar to it
14:44:38 <b_jonas> that's why I draw it from scratch
14:44:55 <b_jonas> sure, I did take some inspiration of all sorts of existing fonts, but you have to do that to make your own art
14:47:17 <FireFly> it's just an interesting thing, the copyrightability of bitmap fonts
14:47:52 <FireFly> I think individual glyphs are very likely to get reinvented a lot, but I think the value of a font (at least smallish bitmap fonts) is in consistency and style
14:48:15 <FireFly> and other such traits, things that cover the collection of glyphs as a whole more than an individual glyph
14:48:52 <b_jonas> wow. I am writing a perl one-liner, and I just got an error from perl that isn't a fatal error and whose meaning I can't guess from the code
14:48:56 <b_jonas> this hasn't happened for many years
14:49:05 <b_jonas> s/fatal error/internal error/
14:49:36 <b_jonas> time to check the documentation
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14:50:43 <b_jonas> it's a warning, not an error, despite not clearly saying "warning", and the doc doesn't give a clear explanation
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14:53:40 <b_jonas> Ideally I should write a doc patch for this, but I'm lazy
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15:11:52 <b_jonas> Q has so many fancy shapes that you could probably draw one that looks like a B or D or S or G at a glance and then deliberately try to confuse people with misreadable words like Quality, Quit, Quite, PLAQUE, Quest, Quilt.
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15:22:26 <FireFly> Ah, Qu ligatures can also look very nice, although bitmap fonts aren't really ligature-friendly :p
15:23:08 <FireFly> <b_jonas> FireFly: only for printers. that isn't possible on video terminals. ← I learned recently about this: https://twitter.com/chordbug/status/905772498796646400 !
15:25:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: was that one that used the type of CRT that traces graphics only once with no continuous rescans and the phosphor keeps remaining lit?
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15:25:51 <b_jonas> they even used CRTs like that as memory, back before DRAMS when people tried all sorts of crazy constructions to get large efficient RAMs
15:26:16 <FireFly> http://www.platopeople.com/emoticons.html has more examples too
15:27:03 <b_jonas> such as rotating magnetic disks, rotating magnetic disks with a separate head for each sector (this was actually common, I'm not making it up), mercury delay lines, core memory, that crt thing,
15:27:15 <b_jonas> and probably even more that I simply never heard about
15:29:54 <b_jonas> also SRAM and shift registers made of transistors, which were not that crazy, but were hard to use before transistors were invented
15:30:07 <b_jonas> tube or relay variant would have been too bulky
15:30:53 <b_jonas> then the DRAM is of course BOTH crazy and requires large integrated circuits
15:31:21 <b_jonas> but it turned out for large enough memory it could be made smaller than SRAM, so it won out
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19:56:14 <zzo38> I have fixed the bugs in MIXPC with LD1N and so on, and now also it keeps track of how many cards have been read/punched so far
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20:02:21 <zzo38> Now the truth-machine program is working.
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21:16:41 <\oren\> wait. coffee crisp and caramilk don't exist outside canada?
21:16:45 <\oren\> in what fucking universe is that acceptable
21:21:10 <\oren\> and cream soda isn't pink in america? what color is it then
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21:26:07 <zzo38> I don't know, but foods are better in Canada; I have been in other places and the food is not as good, so I will stay here in Canada.
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21:53:17 <pikhq> \oren\: Clear or golden brown, typically.
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22:03:26 <\oren\> pikhq: then how do u tell the difference between it and 7up or gingerale?
22:03:43 <zzo38> Presumably by the label I would think?
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22:24:09 <zzo38> How can the critical path method be worked when some activities might not require all of their dependencies but rather five of nine or one of two or whatever?
22:26:28 <zzo38> (Also assume that the minimal set of activities needed to start the goal activity will be done rather than necessarily all of them; if the project needs some other activities, they will be made dependencies of the goal in the normal way (where all dependencies are required rather than only some).)
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23:50:55 <\oren\> I'm glad I never watched star trek so I won't be sad when they ruin it
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00:10:20 <zzo38> The other thing about this variation of critical path method that I mention is that the graph will not necessary be acyclic (cycles can't be used with the normal critical path method, but in this case there is the possibility).
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01:28:05 <moonythedwarf> I dont understand. Can someone explain this madness? http://i.imgur.com/deoP869.png ( from http://blog.piston.rs/2017/09/08/what-is-happening-5/ )'
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02:21:23 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> I don't know, but foods are better in Canada; I have been in other places and the food is not as good, so I will stay here in Canada." => have you been to Hungary or anywhere in the Balcan?
02:21:53 <wob_jonas> Food is great here, and cheap too.
02:21:59 <zzo38> No, I have not, as far as I can remember.
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04:33:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TheSingularity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53055&oldid=52814 * HereToAnnoy * (+2657) Clarification + 99BOB example
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08:45:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53056&oldid=53045 * Zayne * (+40) /* Implementation */
08:45:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noid/decompile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53057 * Zayne * (+965) Created page with " import os s = open(input("Run Script: "), 'r').read() s = s.replace('a', '.') s = s.replace('b', '!') s = s.replace('c', '?') s = s.replace..."
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11:53:53 <fizzie> int-e: Why does lambdabot @hoogle give worse matches than web Hoogle?
11:53:57 <fizzie> int-e: Look at this thing:
11:53:59 <fizzie> @hoogle Monad m => [m a] -> m [a]
11:54:00 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Run mswitch :: (Monad m, MonadUnTrans MaybeAlg t) => [t m b] -> m b -> m b
11:54:00 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Run mswitch0 :: (Monad m, MonadUnTrans MaybeAlg t) => [t m b] -> m b -> m b
11:54:00 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Run mswitch1 :: (Monad m, MonadUnTrans MaybeAlg t) => [t m b] -> m b -> m b
11:54:22 <fizzie> https://www.haskell.org/hoogle/?hoogle=Monad+m+%3D%3E+%5Bm+a%5D+-%3E+m+%5Ba%5D has sequence right at the top.
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18:27:30 <HackEgo> olist 1097: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:20:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53058&oldid=53043 * Zseri * (-23) fix typos
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20:43:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SirScrooble * New user account
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20:48:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53059&oldid=53046 * SirScrooble * (+264)
20:48:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53060&oldid=52395 * SirScrooble * (-2) /* Removed incorrect apostrophe. */
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22:06:32 <int-e> @hoogle (Monad m, Traversable t) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
22:06:32 <lambdabot> Prelude sequence :: (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
22:06:32 <lambdabot> Control.Monad sequence :: (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
22:06:32 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable sequence :: (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
22:07:39 <int-e> fizzie: that's some part of the answer, but I don't really know what the differences between the haskell.org hoogle and the command line hoogle are.
22:08:09 <int-e> @hoogle Prelude.sequence
22:08:09 <lambdabot> Prelude sequence :: (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a)
22:08:10 <lambdabot> Pipes.Prelude sequence :: Monad m => Pipe (m a) a m r
22:08:10 <lambdabot> Streaming.Prelude sequence :: Monad m => Stream (Of (m a)) m r -> Stream (Of a) m r
22:09:35 <int-e> fizzie: note that the online hoogle does give the list type for Prelude.sequence, so maybe that's actually the full answer; the databases are different.
22:11:52 <int-e> fizzie: my setup of the hoogle command just uses 'hoogle generate', there may be room for tweaks.
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22:30:33 <fizzie> int-e: There were some other "obvious" queries I did mostly just to verify which also didn't return the "expected" results.
22:30:44 <fizzie> @hoogle [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
22:30:45 <lambdabot> Data.List nubBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
22:30:45 <lambdabot> GHC.OldList nubBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
22:30:45 <lambdabot> Distribution.Compat.Prelude.Internal nubBy :: () => (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
22:31:07 <fizzie> On the interwebs, forM_ :: Monad m => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m () comes first.
22:31:37 <lambdabot> Control.Monad forM_ :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
22:31:37 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable forM_ :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
22:31:37 <lambdabot> Data.Vector forM_ :: Monad m => Vector a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
22:32:02 <fizzie> I guess it might be that -- your thing has the Foldable t instead of [].
22:32:12 <int-e> well by all appearances, the online version isn't encumberred by the burning bridges proposal
22:32:56 <int-e> and hoogle has no hack to restore the behavior, I wonder whether it has a bug report
22:39:29 <fizzie> Comments on a blog post: "What bother me most is the potential impact of such a change on tools like Hoogle or Hayoo! Will a search on the (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b] type still be able to find mapM ?"
22:42:31 <int-e> well, at this point in time, the answer is no.
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22:43:05 <int-e> even in the full list of tresults, of which there are 325
22:43:35 <int-e> (with the hoogle on lambdabot's VM)
22:43:57 <zzo38> What is the height of the printer of MIX expected to be?
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22:46:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: on sheet paper or leporello?
22:47:22 <fizzie> int-e: Heh, looks like the http://hoogle.haskell.org/ version works the same way as your bot.
22:48:01 <zzo38> wob_jonas: What does "leporello" mean?
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22:51:08 <wob_jonas> zzo38: long continuous stack of sheets folded in fan stack, the printer can see it as an almost infinite height paper, not feeding individual pages, around 70 g/m^2 density, with series of holes on the side so the printer can drive it more easily with a cogged rubber band on either side, but has perforations so humans can tear off the hole strip fr
22:51:08 <wob_jonas> om the sides and separate to A4 size pages
22:51:35 <wob_jonas> was used in dot matrix (and presumably daisy head) printers for printing bills cheaply in businesses that need that
22:52:54 <wob_jonas> there's also double layer carbon paper version of it for printing two copies of everything, also useful for bills
22:53:54 <wob_jonas> it's useful because it allows more stable feed than individual sheets
22:54:13 <zzo38> Yes, I know of such paper and have used it on dot matrix printers before, although MIX can command the printer to eject a page to start on the next page.
22:54:28 <wob_jonas> I think printers can still do that with leporello
22:54:45 <wob_jonas> which is useful for printing bills, because you want to tear at perforations between pages
22:55:02 <zzo38> (MIXPC just emits a ASCII form feed character when it is commanded.)
22:56:02 <zzo38> Don't the continuous paper need holes to feed the paper? So you will need a printer that feeds with such holes
22:58:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well, I think it's more like the holes make the feed more stable, especially for thin paper, but the whole point of a paper roll or leporello is less maintenance during printing, so both leporello and holes together helps
23:00:00 <wob_jonas> I'm having a fun weekend and second half of the week
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23:03:53 <wob_jonas> anyway, I expect around 60 to 70 lines per page
23:04:12 <wob_jonas> let's say 70 on a leporello, 50 on sheet paper
23:05:49 <wob_jonas> but since this is a 1960s computer, leporello would be the defalut
23:08:21 <wob_jonas> but a MIX computer can be connected to various IO devices, and they can have different line length
23:09:40 <zzo38> Well, as long as it does not exceed the limit it is OK. (Sometimes the number of lines printed may depend on user input, in which case the user input (possibly taken from a card) may specify the maximum number of lines per page. But I suppose due to what you mention, using 70 as the default (or maybe even a bit less than 70) can be reasonable.)
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23:10:27 <zzo38> MIX anyways only cares about the width and not the height of various devices; the height may vary, but still is good to know a reasonable default value that can be assumed if not otherwise specified.
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03:40:26 <zzo38> I think punching only the top position is a ampersand, and the MIX character set does not have a ampersand, which makes it difficult to use with MIX if you are using a single hole in one column to represent a month. Specifying amount of money in pence will still be possible though since it only goes from 0 to 11.
03:40:46 <zzo38> (No, wait, I am wrong.)
03:40:55 <zzo38> (Since, it uses top position to mean 10 instead of 12)
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05:12:57 <zzo38> There is the "spider and fly" puzzle involving the shorest distance along the faces of a cube. How to do with the cells of a tesseract?
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06:39:15 <zseri> esolangs.org seems down again.
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06:43:50 <oerjan> yeah HackEgo croaked too
06:44:19 <oerjan> fungot: you'll have to steer the ship alone now
06:44:19 <fungot> oerjan: the t-rex chases, of all places, t-rex, but t-rex explained how the bank that only i was a mutant with a fully-formed extra hand growing out of the base of my spine! if i had an " e", an " x", and so on, to infinity people in it showed a ghostly words written on a slip of paper!
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07:39:23 <\oren\> I should probably stop using the heaviside step function as a response curve.
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08:31:57 <zzo38> As the response curve of what?
08:33:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like Edwards curves?
08:34:45 <zzo38> I don't know what is Edwards curves?
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08:57:29 <shachaf> zzo38: A type of elliptic curve.
08:57:33 <shachaf> Do you like elliptic curves?
09:03:30 <int-e> . o O ( /ignore -channels #esoteric -pattern 'Do you like' )
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09:06:40 <int-e> shachaf: also, is that a roundabout way of asking whether we like djb?
09:07:31 <shachaf> He's certainly overrepresented in what I've read about elliptic curve cryptography, which isn't much.
09:07:52 <shachaf> But his arguments for Edwards curves seem reasonable. Are there other arguments I should know about?
09:09:40 <int-e> I don't know, I thought the arguments he made were persuasive, too.
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09:40:03 <shachaf> int-e: I did like https://cr.yp.to/patents/tarzian.html
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09:59:55 <int-e> From AutoCAD? Not I.
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10:22:56 <Taneb> So, I've just ordered Hardy and Wright's An Introduction to the Theory of Numbers because apparently I like spending money on textbooks now that I've graduated
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10:32:16 <int-e> addicted to learning :P
10:43:32 <Taneb> It totally isn't because one of my friends is catching me up on Project Euler
10:48:57 <Taneb> It's time for me to unoxford
10:49:06 <int-e> oh I'm home already
10:49:18 <Taneb> Meeting a friend for lunch in London
10:50:19 <int-e> (hmm: it seems unlikely that I'll catch up on PE, ever. Now missing almost 370 problems)
10:57:19 <int-e> and I may have forgotten my password as well, yay
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12:04:53 <wob_jonas> oh I just got the most horrible troll of an idea for an esolang
12:08:59 <int-e> . o O ( brainfuck with all commands represented by the same symbol, chosen at random during runtime? )
12:13:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: no. this is one about that parody I want to make about a newbie esolanger trying to make a language and an interpreter
12:20:51 <wob_jonas> Basically I was trying to think of how to write an interpreter that differs from the specification in an interesting way that is also realistic from a newbie. The interpreter can't just be completely useless or missing most of the language, because while that's realistic, it's not interesting. But the differences also have to cripple the language,
12:21:13 <wob_jonas> And now I realized exactly how I could do this. This is tricky to write, but it will be worth.
12:21:25 <int-e> so it's an underhanded esolang
12:23:37 <int-e> liars. "We use cookies so that Dropbox works for you."
12:23:53 <wob_jonas> It has to look like a stupid esolang from the specs, and has to be a completely differently stupid esolang if you actually try to run the interpreter
12:25:09 <int-e> . o O ( Of course you could also try the opposite, a non-TC esolang that due to a programming error becomes a TC strange machine (ideally in a machine independent way; otherwise you'd just need a buffer overflow or other vulnerability somewhere)
12:26:10 <wob_jonas> int-e: the implemented esolang might still be TC, it will just be restricted way more than the specs intends to restrict it
12:26:27 <wob_jonas> so it's much less convenient to program it than it seems from the spec and the examples
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12:38:59 <wob_jonas> Oh! I could even make it work on windows only, as a bonus
12:39:14 <wob_jonas> or work differently on windows and linux
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12:52:47 <wob_jonas> Multiplatform differences would make testing a bit trickier for me, I might have to ask help from other people.
12:59:48 <wob_jonas> I will also make the interpreter horribly inefficient for real computations, and get away with it because today's computers are fast enough that I can run toy examples quickly
13:00:12 <wob_jonas> And I mean so inefficient that I will scream inside as I read my own source code
13:00:30 <wob_jonas> Although I think that bothers most people much less
13:02:04 <wob_jonas> Oh, and I'll have to put the code on github
13:02:11 <wob_jonas> because that's what a newbie would do
13:02:19 <wob_jonas> then I can put jokes in the version control history too
13:10:01 <int-e> . o O ( you could unroll a loop too, to improve efficiency )
13:17:14 <wob_jonas> I've no idea how github works, but hopefully I'll figure it out
13:17:38 <wob_jonas> using github is something a newbie would do, right? they teach that in schools these days or something
13:17:55 <wob_jonas> best practices version control and github is the most popular version control system or something
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13:18:19 <FireFly> git is a VCS, github is just a place that hosts repositories
13:18:25 <int-e> probably, or perhaps bitbucket
13:18:45 <FireFly> it's a bit annoying it's become defacto standard
13:18:47 <wob_jonas> put your homework on github so all the other students in the class can copy it easily
13:18:49 <FireFly> though gitlab exists I guess
13:19:24 <wob_jonas> I wonder if I should try that in fact, making the language an obvious fork from another student's homework
13:19:59 <int-e> . o O ( you may be reaching the point where you're trying to do too many things at once )
13:20:03 <wob_jonas> with the name in a comment at top changed
13:20:17 <wob_jonas> this probably works better if it's not a homework actually
13:20:56 <wob_jonas> because then the teacher would hopefully at least teach something useful about interpreters and maybe look at the students' code and give them advice or something (yeah, I know it doesn't always work like that)
13:21:03 <wob_jonas> a hobby project by a single person is better
13:21:31 <wob_jonas> and if it's homework, they wouldn't come to esolangs.org and talk about anyway
13:22:00 <wob_jonas> so I will use github, but in a home way
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17:12:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think I've started to figure out how I can do the interpreter part of this esolang parody thing
17:13:22 <wob_jonas> I have had trouble with it because I didn't have any memories of trying to write a bad parser before I knew how to write at least a working parser
17:13:36 <wob_jonas> but I think now I successfully got in the mindset, and know some core ideas,
17:13:57 <wob_jonas> so I'll be able to write a parser that hurts when you read the source code,
17:14:25 <wob_jonas> and more importantly, I know how to write a parser that results in a language that is interstingly more broken than the specified language but not so broken that it's boring
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17:15:08 <wob_jonas> I might still need some feedback from some of you later
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17:46:55 <zzo38> ais523: What programming language are you going to use to implement the card game that you have invented?
17:47:47 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not sure if I'm going to implement it at all
17:48:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, I guess this is one of the things you have to see before you can give feedback on it
17:48:51 <zzo38> Maybe I would try to implement it some day then; I don't know. And then you can complain in case I have done it wrong.
17:49:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: the breakthrough was when I realized I could simply match parenthisized subexpressions with /\((.*)\)/, to support nested parenthesis
17:50:16 <wob_jonas> but that made me see how I can make the rest of the parser ad-hoc and work only for specific example programs, without handling syntax errors gracefully
17:50:30 <wob_jonas> not just syntax errors, but things like unusual whitespace
17:50:48 <wob_jonas> the imaginary person simply didn't try most of the deliberate syntax errors that a person rarely commits
17:51:34 <ais523> ooh, parsing with regex
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17:52:47 <wob_jonas> so he would handle finding a statement keyword that doesn't exist yet, but not a missing expression after a comma in an argument list or something
17:53:03 <wob_jonas> yeah, I have to be careful with regex, because a newbie might not know of them at all
17:53:39 <wob_jonas> unless they're programming perl or something, and I don't just want to write the program in perl, because then I'd be too prone to write the perl I wrote when I was young
17:54:06 <wob_jonas> still I hope I can get away with naive uses of simple regexen
17:56:02 <wob_jonas> I mean, they're not that unknown these days unless I make the character program DOS Turbo Pascal
17:57:00 <wob_jonas> Ideally I should probably use Java or C# or something, but I'm not ready for that
17:58:36 <wob_jonas> well, I might still try. I can probably learn as much Java as the character
17:58:48 <wob_jonas> I'll just have to find some old and bad enough Java tutorial
18:00:01 <ais523> Java supports PCRE-style regexes, perhaps surprisingly
18:00:06 <ais523> I know it surprised me
18:00:39 <wob_jonas> the main criteria for the regex here is that the dot should automatically match newlines
18:05:30 <ais523> oh, it doesn't in most regex syntaxes
18:05:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: I already had matlab as a candidate, because it already allows for (1) doing unnecessary file IO in the interpreter to look which source files exist and also having code that could break in interesting ways when you run it on a case-sensitive fs,
18:06:27 <zzo38> I just used [^] to match any character including newlines
18:06:48 <wob_jonas> and (2) easily lets the program call matlab functions, which makes the interpreter easier to implement and have the newbie-esoteric trait that it doesn't have arithmetic operator syntax and you have to call matlab's minus and times functions, which easily brings in the parenthesis limitation
18:06:57 <ais523> zzo38: that won't work in all regex syntaxes, some of them parse the ] as a literal closing square bracket, not as the end of the character class
18:07:08 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, that doesn't work in posix regex, only in perl regex
18:07:17 <wob_jonas> maybe not even in perl regex, I don't remember
18:07:21 <ais523> wob_jonas: IIRC it doesn't work in perl regex either
18:07:26 <ais523> there's probably a syntax where it works, though
18:07:31 <zzo38> Well, [^] works in JavaScript at least.
18:07:33 <wob_jonas> anyway, the octave regex has dot matching newlines by default
18:07:42 <zzo38> (My implementation of /// in JavaScript does this)
18:08:11 <wob_jonas> matlab is also realistic as a language a student learns in a university class,
18:08:58 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/slashes.js
18:08:59 <wob_jonas> and has a reasonable enough syntax that the character could base his syntax on it and because of the builtin function thing, accidentally give .m as the extension for one of his supposed functions written in the program, although I'm not yet sure that works out
18:09:22 <wob_jonas> I probably won't do that, I'll probably make the syntax too different for that
18:09:50 <fizzie> FYI, wiki is down. As usual, no answer over SSH so... wait and see, I guess.
18:10:38 <wob_jonas> also, I no longer thing I'll call the character User:Fungot, because sadly there's a mainspace Fungot article which would make people find that before User:Fungot
18:12:07 <fizzie> I got an email alert, but of course I didn't notice until now. Should probably have it do something more visible, but OTOH so far there's never really been anything I could do about it.
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19:57:02 <zseri> Why has the Wiki crashed so frequently lately?
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20:17:02 <fizzie> Because of it's hosting provider, I'm pretty sure.
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21:05:00 <zzo38> GURPS has 100 core spells, which is too much to be selecting at random by use of a deck of cards, even if tarot cards are in use. Even if the Enchantment spells and Recover Energy are omitted, there is still too much.
21:06:14 <zzo38> (Enchantment spells are used to permanently enchant magical items and work differently than other spells, while Recover Energy cannot be cast at all.)
21:06:53 <wob_jonas> cannot be cast at all? you can only splice it?
21:08:49 <zzo38> Actually no (although I like that idea too, but none of the core spells can be spliced). Simply having it at a high enough skill level allows FP spent on energy costs of spells to be recovered faster by a mage who knows the spell.
21:12:31 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure it'd be a good idea if it could be spliced, it's hard to balance that thing.
21:12:47 <wob_jonas> But that depends on the rest of the mechanics and stuff
21:14:09 <wob_jonas> I just thought you meant that you want a random choice of spell for misfiring a wand that a non-caster is trying to zap, in which case recover energy would make no sense
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21:30:48 <zseri> fizzie: admin of esolangs.org (according to whois) is Alan Dipert. Domain Registrar: godaddy; server location: Canada; Nameserver domains@: zem.fi , rollernet.us
21:32:41 <zseri> ISP = KW Datacenter
21:33:54 <zzo38> I mean a wand with a random effect, even if it is not misfired, but still it has to be a spell that can be cast. (Splicing also won't be used in this case, presumably, though.)
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21:35:26 <fizzie> zseri: That WHOIS info isn't quite right, possibly because I have WHOIS privacy turned on for the domain.
21:38:20 <fizzie> But yeah, it's hosted (with HackEgo) on a cloudatcost.com "one time fee" VPS, of which stories have been told.
21:38:53 <fizzie> https://www.trustpilot.com/review/cloudatcost.com
21:42:39 <Gregor> fizzie: Just gave it a kick on the panel.
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21:43:03 <Gregor> If you have anywhere to move it to, I'd recommend moving it X-D
21:43:14 <Gregor> CaC seems to have gone from bad to worse.
21:45:03 <izabera> can we just stop using/talking about c@c at all?
21:45:43 <zseri> fizzie: but why is it then nevertheless hosted there?
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22:39:46 <fizzie> Gregor: Thanks. I looked at Google Cloud Platform (we at least used to get some free credit for it), but it can be used only "for business" in the EU. Maybe after Brexit.
22:39:50 <fizzie> (I'm too stingy to pay specifically for it more than the yearly domain renewal.)
22:49:41 <fizzie> There's a few very cheap offerings around, though -- should maybe seriously consider those. They might not be great, but it's not a high bar to be better than the status quo.
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02:45:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53061&oldid=52781 * HereToAnnoy * (+158) formatted page better
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03:15:32 <zzo38> I partially am making up the calendar printing program for MIX. It needs a data deck with at first the starter card (specifying the year and cell height), and then zero or more date cards, and then a blank card at the end. The same data deck can be used every year except that the starter card will need to be replaced with a fresh one.
03:16:26 <zzo38> But, the starter card has many unused character positions, so we could use them to allow the same starter card to be used for several years, if you can punch an additional hole into one of the unused columns every year until it is full.
03:18:55 <zzo38> It is also using a disk, with one record per week, for temporary storage, since the RAM is not enough.
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03:47:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WCDA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53062 * HereToAnnoy * (+3852) Created page for WCDA, the ultimate golfing language
03:51:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53063&oldid=53062 * HereToAnnoy * (+4) minor - added link to Hello, World!
03:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53064&oldid=53034 * HereToAnnoy * (+69) /* W */ - added WCDA to the language list
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10:18:01 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> But, the starter card has many unused character positions" => how many characters of it do you use to encode moon phase?
10:18:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: a calendar program is nice, and I have thought of writing my own one day, although not in MMIX
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12:15:23 <b_jonas> I'm stupid, I've even seen that
12:43:38 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1886/ <-- well you can take solace in the fact that I was blissfully unaware that "typing notifications" are a thing
12:43:57 <int-e> (let's just hope that IRC client don't jump on this particular train)
12:46:53 <b_jonas> int-e: IRC clients won't, because luckily the kind of people who think IRC should be extended with modern multimedia capabilities are developing a dozen different chat protocols with modern multimedia capabilities and decentralized cryptography schemes and video chat built in
12:47:40 <b_jonas> and if anyone tried to add client-to-client typing notifications in IRC, which is totally technically not that hard, freenode would kick them in the ass for the useless extra traffic
12:48:15 <b_jonas> skype has typing notifications by default, and I think you can't disable them now with the latest dumbed-down client which doesn't even have an options dialog or a way to quit or anything
12:48:32 <b_jonas> basically MS has successfully turned skype into malware
12:48:41 <b_jonas> it was already close, but they made it worse
12:48:52 <b_jonas> and I don't think skype is the only chat that does that
12:57:15 <int-e> yeah that seems unlikely
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12:59:27 <fizzie> int-e: ITYM <CTCP>TYPING<CTCP>
13:01:45 <fizzie> I think Hangouts' typing notifications are also un-disableable.
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13:13:24 <b_jonas> The same is true for adding multimedia inserts or fancy HTML formatting information or extra-long lines or picture avatars or name colors or deletable or editable messages,
13:13:52 <b_jonas> any of which could be added to IRC as an extension among cooperating clients, but nobody bothers with that, because the people who care write fancy heavy javascript-based web chat programs.
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13:19:19 <fizzie> I wrote an irssi plugin for one-time-pad encrypted messages once.
13:19:36 <fizzie> Then swapped a CD-full of random bytes with a friend.
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13:20:10 <fizzie> I think I wanted to say "CD full" or "CD-ful", but somehow ended up with both there.
13:23:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: hehe, lol. there are cheaper protocols than a CD full of random bits, but ok.
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15:37:02 <int-e> . o O ( how does one remember C-x 5 2 )
15:38:26 <shachaf> int-e: You don't use any chat program with typing notifications?
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15:39:39 <shachaf> fizzie: I use (non-multiuser) Hangouts with XMPP, and I assume I can disable typing notifications in my client.
15:39:55 <shachaf> But this is becoming less and less supported, I suppose.
15:51:52 <int-e> shachaf: that's right.
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15:53:10 <int-e> shachaf: Also, my mobile phone has about 15 keys and 3 games on it, no camera, and the flashlight is an actual lamp rather than the display backlight.
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15:53:39 <shachaf> 3 games? Is one of them Snake?
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16:11:09 <b_jonas> good, so HackEgo and wiki probably came up
16:12:01 <b_jonas> int-e: 15 keys? that seems either too few (if it has a numeric keypad and no touchscreen or a touchscreen and full alphabetic keypad), or too many (if it has a touchscreen and no keypad).
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16:15:55 <Cale> b_jonas: 12 for the numeric keypad, # and *, and then you have 3 more... perhaps pick up, hang up, and something to do with caller id?
16:18:35 <b_jonas> Cale: most phones have at least 16, typically around 22 to 25 these days. a phone that has games most certainly has at least 16.
16:19:13 <b_jonas> I only know of one very old phone that has 16 keys, and that kind of interface is too limited and rare these days
16:19:31 <b_jonas> everyone is copying the interfaces from each other, and since the previous one has more buttons, the new ones have more buttons too
16:23:46 <zzo38> b_jonas: The moon phase isn't encoded on the card, currently; I should think it would calculate the phase of moon by themself if they needed to do, rather than taking it as input.
16:24:59 <fizzie> I imagine you could use the numeric keypad to control those games. The N-Gage had 5 and 7 as the A and B gamepad buttons, slightly raised. Though it also had a d-pad.
16:25:14 <fizzie> I seem to recall 12 (keypad) + 3 (up, "action" and down) + 2 ("soft buttons" on left and right bottom corners of screen) = 17 being pretty standard setup.
16:28:56 <zzo38> I would think in addition to the 0-9 * # you will also need send, end, high volume, low volume, and delete.
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16:33:38 <int-e> b_jonas: Note the "about". I'm not sure how to count the cursor cross, since it's a single button with four active directions. I think it's actually 17 or 20, depending on how you count.
16:34:01 <zzo38> int-e: Count it as four buttons, I should think
16:34:24 <b_jonas> int-e: if it has four directions, then it's four buttons. if it has four directions plus can also be pressed in the middle for a different effect, it's five buttons. if you can only press it up and down, it's two buttons. if up and down and middle, it's three buttons.
16:34:54 <int-e> as I said, it depends on how you count; I gave two ways that I consider reasonable.
16:35:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: these days phones also have a power key and often volume keys and sometimes other extra keys (lock, lamp, message, alarm clock) on the sides or the back.
16:36:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: and many phones have two soft buttons and an additional pick up and put down buttons, with red and green icons, between the soft button and the numeric keys
16:37:28 <zzo38> I am counting everything in my own count of 17
16:38:14 <b_jonas> these conventions are useful because on non-touchphone telephones, if you want to call emergency services, you can always just type 1 1 2 followed by the button above the 1; and if a colleage leaves his phone in the room and it rings loudly, you can almost always mute it by pressing volume buttons on the side or back and/or turning the phone display down.
16:39:13 <b_jonas> It seems like the people who make the laws actually care about being able to call emergency services from all phones easily,
16:39:36 <b_jonas> and as for the loud ringing, it's getting more and more important with so many phones with no removable battery,
16:40:14 <zzo38> You need removable battery.
16:40:25 <b_jonas> but even apart from those the manufacturers just want to make people be able to learn to use their phones easily
16:40:34 <zzo38> In case it won't turn off somehow, can be useful
16:40:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, it's useful. but there are still phones without it.
16:41:01 <zzo38> (Or if the battery is damaged and you need to replace it)
16:41:09 <b_jonas> usually they put in some special turn off mode like PCs have where if you press the power button for long enough it turns off
16:42:14 <b_jonas> no, I can actually understand why they don't want a removable and replacable battery. they want a light and thin phone, and if the battery is removable, then it needs an extra layer of casing on both of its sides, besides what the phone would already hvae
16:42:26 <b_jonas> phones without removable battery can simply have fewer plastic in them
16:43:17 <b_jonas> also, if the display breaks once every two years in normal use, then most phones don't get to the age when the battery has to be replaced
16:43:27 <b_jonas> and people replace their whole phones with a new model every two years too
16:43:34 <b_jonas> so why bother with replacable battery?
16:47:04 <zzo38> They shouldn't need to change it entirely every few year
16:48:16 <b_jonas> sure, but even then, my phone is about six or eight years old now, I'll replace it soon, and the battery seems to have a lifetime comparable to the rest. the battery is simply no longer the part that lives the shortest, so why make that one replacable in particular, rather than any of the other parts?
16:49:42 <zzo38> O, if the battery lives longer anyways, then it makes sense, but why can't the other parts work?
16:51:11 <b_jonas> the display breaks often because it's huge and has a glass plate that extends to the sides of the phone with little or no frame, so whenever you drop the phone in any orientation except flatly to the front or back, the glass gets a shock from the side and may crack. it may also get hurt in other ways.
16:51:29 <b_jonas> but it's not just parts breaking, but sometimes people wanting the features or performance of a new phone that might matter.
16:52:35 <zzo38> I suppose it can then depend on the individual customers; who are more likely to break or not to not do so; and there are sometimes if you want hardware upgrades too. But sometimes you might only need a software upgrade, depending how it is designed.
16:52:54 <b_jonas> also in android and windows phone smartphones, the software gets unsupported because the manufacturers make changes from the vanilla OS and barely update the modified OS with upstream security patches, so you end up with very old software that is often unsecure
16:53:12 <b_jonas> so people either install custom software or they have to buy a new phone just for the software
16:53:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, it's just that getting a software update is often impossible
16:53:53 <b_jonas> not updating the software, but getting the software you want to update to
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16:54:47 <zzo38> That can be the case, but they should allow custom software (unless the software is stored in ROM, in which case there might be a reason to make the ROM chip replaceable, or preferably, to use programmable ROM so that you can set an internal switch in the battery compartment to programmable ROM mode if you want to upgrade it).
16:55:03 <zzo38> That is why you need open source software, then you can make the upgrade by yourself
16:55:32 <b_jonas> and as for dropping the phone, what do you expect people should do? half of the phones these days don't even have a wrist/neck strap attach point in the chasis, and I think when my grandmother lost the back cover of her phone, that was because I had a wrist strap attached without a proper attach point which made the back cover not snap in properly on that corner
16:56:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: the smartphones almost always do allow you to install custom software, it's just that you don't find the right custom software to intsall
16:56:33 <b_jonas> at least for non-apple phones. apple phones, I think, have longer support for their software
16:56:55 <zzo38> Depends how the customer uses it and how prone they are to dropping stuff, how often you carry it with you, store in your pocket, etc.
16:57:10 <zzo38> Some people don't drop stuff as much
16:57:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but I am saying they should include full source codes and free license for the manufacturer's software; even if they do not maintain it anymore someone else might do.
17:00:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know, I think people are just overconfident and don't think they'll drop their phone, yet I see a lot of people with phones with broken displays on a bus, and whenever you travel on a chair skilift, you see an abundance of dropped batons and gloves under the route.
17:01:41 <b_jonas> sure, maybe some people don't drop their stuff. I do drop my stuff, which is why I use a wriststrap and a neckstrap (not at the same time) for my camera. I don't use a strap for my mobile phone, but it's survived a few drops already, doesn't have a big display, and is cheap enough to replace, and I want to replace it soon anyway.
17:01:48 <zzo38> That may be the case. Still, some people might be more likely to drop it than others anyways.
17:02:11 <b_jonas> I've even dropped my phone into a toilet bowl once. That doesn't just happen to other people like I thought.
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17:02:42 <b_jonas> Yes, I admit I have a low DEX score, so I fail those checks more often. But half of the people have a low DEX score.
17:07:11 <b_jonas> Look, my father cut into his finger with a circular saw. And that's a dangerous machine and he knows he has to avoid it, and pays attention to what he's doing when using it. Whereas
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17:08:35 <b_jonas> people text on a mobile phone while still holding on to the bus so they don't fall, three shopping bags full of goods and two children; or they hold a mobile phone to their ears while driving, using their two hands to also hold the steering wheel, the shift stick, a cigarette, a sandwich or cup of drink, and the leg of the girl sitting next to them.
17:08:57 <b_jonas> It's absolutely normal that people drop their mobile phone.
17:09:25 <zzo38> Yes, and you shouldn't do stupid things like trying to do all of those things at the same time. (Where I live it is illegal anyways)
17:10:20 <zzo38> But yes, of course someone may drop it anyways
17:10:22 <b_jonas> I drop them because I don't yet have a kid I have to hold, so until that, because I'm clumsy, I have to pay extra attention to train myself to drop things in my hand when I trip so I can put the palms in front of me if I fall forward or behind me if I fall sideways or back,
17:10:45 <b_jonas> against the normal reflex of always keeping holding on to whatever is in your hand, which only makes sense once you grow up and carry a child in one hand.
17:11:47 <b_jonas> Holding stuff in your hand while driving is usually illegal, yes. Holding shopping bags and two kids and a mobile phone is most definitely not illegal, and it'd be hard to regulate.
17:13:40 <zzo38> Yes, holding shopping bags and two kids and a mobile phone is not illegal and probably shouldn't be illegal, but still you shouldn't do all of those things at the same time while you are also eating and driving and smoking all at the same time too.
17:14:08 <b_jonas> Yes, those are two different examples.
17:15:02 <zzo38> Did you write a calendar program? If so, in what program language?
17:15:08 <b_jonas> Few people hold their children while driving, or their children while holding the leg of the girl next to them, or two shopping bags while driving.
17:15:28 <zzo38> That's what I thought.
17:15:51 <b_jonas> I have written one program that computes the days of the week, in perl or ruby (I'm not sure), but I haven't written much else.
17:16:56 <b_jonas> Instead I just wrote emails to timeanddate.com each time the Hungarian government decides to swap up holidays just a few months in the future, and used their calendar.
17:17:13 <b_jonas> Plus paper calendars and other existing computer calendar programs.
17:18:04 <b_jonas> And I also used libraries for some date-time computations, like date arithmetic and io.
17:18:43 <b_jonas> I used perl Date::Manip from CPAN mostly, it's good (and I also have written emails to its maintainer), but it's not perfect.
17:22:45 <zzo38> What things are the problem with it and have you fixed it?
17:24:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: with timeanddate, and almost every other calendar interface, I'd like to see both the name of the month and the one-based number of the month, together on the same year overview calendar page, and also in other calendars, on month overview and week overview pages.
17:25:08 <zzo38> OK then I will put that in
17:25:11 <b_jonas> with Date::Manip, many bugs have been fixed if you upgrade to latest versions, some outstanding problems that are hard to fix are: (1) it's a perl module with perl interface, but you often want to so date calculations and perl is an overkill, so you need other libraries,
17:25:43 <b_jonas> (2) Date::Manip doesn't do sub-second precision (it gracefully discards sub-second parts when parsing, but that's all),
17:26:41 <b_jonas> (3) for localized translated formatting, it uses only its built-in set of around fifteen languages, which is fine for me, but in general you want a larger translation database, such as the one ICU or glibc have.
17:27:11 <b_jonas> Glibc has a longstanding bug with Hungarian localization of dates, but I never bothered to fix that because I don't want Hungarian localized interface, but some other people do want that.
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17:28:05 <b_jonas> Where Date::Manip excels is the three (actually more like five or six, but I use three) different modes of date arithmetic
17:28:23 <b_jonas> and the customizable formatting and scanning of dates
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17:28:56 <b_jonas> I have to afk now for probably 90 minutes
17:29:38 <zzo38> The program I have, a date card might look like this: " 0901 1F +00 2 LABOUR DAY " and the rest blank.
17:35:39 <zzo38> (The "+00" is actually optional; if left blank, it means the same thing. The "1F" if omitted will just use the date in the first five character positions instead; in this case, September 1.)
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18:21:11 <int-e> @google "pumpkin lemma"
18:21:13 <lambdabot> https://twitter.com/metadave/status/396017702117994496
18:23:34 <\oren\> when did this delicious drama start! "YouTube star PewDiePie under fire for branding rival gamer with n-word"
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19:09:08 <shachaf> It's not delicious, it's boring.
19:09:15 <shachaf> If you stop paying attention to it maybe it'll go away.
19:16:05 <\oren\> int-e: no, someone killed him and he yelled that they were a fucking nigger
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19:40:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53065&oldid=53058 * Zseri * (-390) remove useless information about internal vm stacks
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19:48:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53066&oldid=53065 * Zseri * (+189) re-organized variable assign commands
20:11:09 <shachaf> Cale: Super Mega books are shipping out soon!
20:23:47 <HackEgo> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
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20:39:03 <shachaf> Are you in the Kickstarter thing?
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20:44:34 <Cale> I think I got it from the preorder store shortly after the kickstarter ended
20:45:46 <fungot> wob_jonas: and a second course of extra dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that
20:45:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
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21:09:26 <oerjan> fungot: that was a bit too extra
21:09:26 <fungot> oerjan: never!! so that's why!
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21:23:36 <fungot> int-e: and i think to myself: this is a black market, t-rex? there are already a lot, but they're always a good party, but are we including all space as the nouns! you can have nouns floating around you in conversation. how is that not awesome?
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21:39:08 <shachaf> Haven't we been over this? The "ch" isn't like "chair".
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21:51:25 <ais523> shachaf: this is a fact that I've somehow never been in the channel to see
21:59:03 <oerjan> i had guessed that fact before being told, but had otherwise guessed the stress wrong.
21:59:10 <quintopia> i never even suspected that there was a preferred pronuciation
21:59:42 <quintopia> i thought it was just "i rot13d funpuns. pronounce it however you like."
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22:35:07 <int-e> sbe gur ebg13 uvag
22:49:33 <quintopia> oh its supposed to be forward slash *facepalm*
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22:58:33 <oerjan> int-e: that uvag is wrong, anyway
22:59:20 <HackEgo> \ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash.
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23:17:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53067&oldid=53061 * HereToAnnoy * (+18) /* Contributions */
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23:40:34 <\oren\> Ok, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard: "heated oil bath core memory"
23:41:13 <\oren\> early IBM computers literally fried their memory to keep it at a consistent temperature
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00:08:34 <wob_jonas> \oren\: early computers also heated their cathode tubes, hadn't they?
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00:14:50 * Sgeo_ wonders if MtG Arena will be good
00:15:16 <ais523> it'll depend a lot on its monetisation model and how buggy (or not) it is
00:15:28 <ais523> I've been learning not to underestimate WotC's ability to screw something like that up
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00:48:55 <Sgeo_> I haven't played Eternal in a while, maybe I should play a bit
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02:27:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53068&oldid=53063 * HereToAnnoy * (+1015) Added more examples and documentation
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04:03:13 <Sgeo_> ais523, should I sign up for Closed Beta? I know the rules of MtG to some extent but haven't played much and not great at deckbuilding. I do have a Magic Duels account so I think I have priority access.
04:03:20 <Sgeo_> But would that be stealing access from a better player?
04:03:28 <Sgeo_> Especially if I don't end up playing a lot
04:04:11 <ais523> Sgeo_: it's up to you, I wouldn't worry much about stealing access, they can just change the numbers of people accessing it according to how active people are
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04:51:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yangtse * New user account
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04:53:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53069&oldid=53059 * Yangtse * (+104) /* Introductions */
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06:17:25 <int-e> @tell oerjan the hint may be wrong but it's very plausible.
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06:18:54 <shachaf> It's OK, oerjan will see it anyway.
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06:31:35 <int-e> . o O ( stupid socat )
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09:52:05 <lambdabot> int-e said 3h 33m 31s ago: the hint may be wrong but it's very plausible.
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10:51:26 <oerjan> <shachaf> It's OK, oerjan will see it anyway. <-- SPOOOOKY
11:08:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Szs * New user account
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11:11:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53070&oldid=53069 * Szs * (+125) /* Introductions */
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11:13:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53071&oldid=52636 * Szs * (+1) /* Hello, world! */ corrected: a 0 is necessary to end the loop
11:25:45 <oerjan> `! befunge 64+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@
11:26:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53072&oldid=53071 * Oerjan * (-1) Undo revision 53071 by [[Special:Contributions/Szs|Szs]] ([[User talk:Szs|talk]]) (Welcome, but it's not - empty stack pops give 0)
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13:12:01 <fizzie> I always write 52*, and I know people who write 55+, but 64+ is new to me.
13:12:22 <fizzie> (Context: putting a newline on the stack in Befunge.)
13:16:08 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure I've used everything from 55+ to 91+ in the -93 part of Mycology
13:16:51 <Deewiant> Never 52* though, don't you know that adding is faster than multiplication?
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15:00:11 <FireFly> I think I've used 91+ in my programs
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16:31:19 <HackEgo> olist 1098: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:40:41 <shachaf> copumpkin: Do you like Matt Levine?
18:53:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smallfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53073&oldid=51417 * EzoLang * (-17) Change sf2tab link to point to the current Cat's Eye URL
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19:00:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53074 * Zseri * (+694) create page
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19:01:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53075&oldid=53064 * Zseri * (+10) +XTW
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20:14:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53076&oldid=53074 * Zseri * (+144) +Interpreter
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20:59:41 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eILrESvP-jE
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21:17:31 <\oren\> Life-hack, do all your banking with a bank whose world headquarters are in your city.
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21:19:11 <shachaf> I think my bank has something like three branches in the US, and none in this state.
21:19:25 <shachaf> What's the benefit of having the world headquarters in your city?
21:19:50 <shachaf> Maybe you can take the CEO hostage if you're unhappy.
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21:34:33 <Soni> 1-bit brainfuck with overflow is interesting because both + and - do the same thing
21:38:03 <myname> there are a bunch of instruction reduced bf derivates with that idea in mind
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21:39:59 <Soni> I'm just too lazy to write a piston-powered 8-bit adder and I/O device
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07:56:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PyText?!.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53077&oldid=52856 * Zayne * (+69)
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14:40:44 <b_jonas> ROFL another of those funny webpages that put a box saying "You're reading a preview. Unlock for full access." and fades and blurs a page, all in client-side HTML+CSS, but still serves the full image to you under it.
14:41:16 <b_jonas> There's a ton of these for some reason. I don't get why.
14:41:51 <b_jonas> I mean, if you want to show a blurred preview anyway, it wouldn't even cost much to just store low-quality blurred faded images on your server.
14:43:32 <b_jonas> sadly, I didn't find what I actually want
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14:57:06 <juh9870> I tried to make first interpritier for ACRONYM
14:57:32 <juh9870> so, here http://cssdeck.com/labs/full/mugdi9nj you can try out what i made
14:57:50 <juh9870> it have working basic rules of ACRONYM
14:58:18 <juh9870> but you must define conditions of the loop at the start of loop
14:59:09 <juh9870> like so {/{{(>>)}}[>]:/=: ...code... \}
14:59:30 <juh9870> bit examples from ACRONYM page not working
14:59:42 <juh9870> for debbuging use brpwser console
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18:32:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zayne2 * New user account
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19:09:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53078&oldid=53076 * Zseri * (+37) +Object orientied paradigm
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19:31:27 <this> this chat dead?
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19:49:39 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international bush for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
19:50:10 <oerjan> hm i guess that's just the same thing
19:50:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international brush for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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20:27:54 <HackEgo> Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
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03:14:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53079&oldid=53068 * HereToAnnoy * (-128) minor page edits
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08:40:40 <\oren\> lol netanyahu's son wtfbbq
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10:59:08 <b_jonas> In M:tG, how will the new set Ixalan have a merfolk theme, when they no longer want to print color hosers, and merfolks in Lorwyn had the theme of going everywhere on water by taking the water with themselves?
11:00:06 <b_jonas> What the heck? How do they have so many non-vanilla tokens in a set?
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12:03:05 <b_jonas> I'm trying to buy a replacement battery, and for that, I have to determine the type of the battery in the device. It is cylindrical, 0.027 long, and has the labels "VAVVT 27A 12V alarm battery".
12:03:46 <b_jonas> I figured it's probably an A23 battery, since that's of a similar same size and shape and nominal voltage, but I'm not completely sure.
12:04:23 <Taneb> Quantum lambda calculus seems pretty interesting
12:05:59 <b_jonas> (It also says "Hg" under a crossed out trashcan icon, so probably a mercury battery, as well as "made in China" and "Leagallon battery co., ltd. www.vavtt.com" and "Warning: do not dispose of in fire or attempt to recharge as battery may explode or leak.")
12:11:54 <b_jonas> But apparently there's also a battery size called "A27", which is also 12 V and 0.027 long, and also can apparently be labelled 27A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:27A_Battery.jpg
12:12:55 <b_jonas> Apparently the A27 type is thinner.
12:13:55 <b_jonas> I'll have to measure the diameter when I get home.
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13:28:50 <HackEgo> ü//ü is the ridiculously happy second derivative of the letter ‘u’ with respect to time.
13:29:00 <HackEgo> g powder \ 1/3 c Brown sugar \ 2 c Flour; sifted \ 2 tb Butter or margarine \ 1 ts Sugar \ 3 tb Lemon juice \ 1 Garlic cloves; etchick \ \ 1. Grill and divide into serving platter. Each balls (airlecking) \ overning ripe beef with a spoonfuls on platter. Sprinkle each rounds \ over top. Slice the muffin cups and pourient of a 2-quart pan
13:29:40 <b_jonas> gerlic? ouch, what's that?
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15:11:06 <int-e> b_jonas: does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes help?
15:11:20 <int-e> Oh wait I guess you found that already, sorry.
15:11:21 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I looked at that
15:11:52 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm not at home and only have two photos of the battery here. when I go home, I'll measure how thick the battery is, and find out which one it is
15:11:55 <int-e> It is a great page though, I think. Worth recommending :)
15:12:42 <b_jonas> I already bought an A23 in the shop, but it's a cheap one so it's not a big problem to have bought that. The problem might be if A27 is harder to find.
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17:41:12 <shachaf> I had a dream that there was a new olist, but I kept getting distracted from reading it.
17:42:37 <b_jonas> there's so many things on internet that it's very easy to get distracted
17:43:04 <Taneb> shachaf, I got distracted from reading olists completely years ago
17:43:45 <shachaf> Taneb: maybe it's time to get you ristracted hth
17:44:51 <Taneb> Eh, it wasn't really my thing
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18:05:27 <int-e> . o O ( there is no such thing )
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18:12:36 <Taneb> int-e, that's a corollary of there is no such thing as a cat
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18:13:37 <int-e> Taneb: true, but I'd have trouble justifying that stronger statement.
18:14:20 <Taneb> int-e, it also resolves neatly Schrodinger's famous thought experiment
18:15:04 <int-e> you mean the cat will be both dead and alive?
18:15:42 <Taneb> It's all a wild goose chase, the cat never existed in the first place
18:15:44 <int-e> and while I'm being philosophical, is a dead cat still a cat?
18:18:52 <int-e> shachaf: what do you think of http://thefw.com/files/2013/02/2uu34uG.jpg
18:19:09 <shachaf> int-e: itym "Do you like this?" hth
18:19:43 <int-e> perhaps but I made a point of not writing it.
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19:28:04 <\oren\> hmm, I need a mass-rename tool
19:29:15 <b_jonas> unix has such nice logical executable names
19:29:32 <\oren\> liek suppose i have files named pokemon_1 pokemon_2, ... pokemon_6 i want to rename them to pocket_monsters_1 etc.
19:31:44 <b_jonas> use the perl command-line rename tool. rename -n 's/kemon/cket_monster/' pokemon_[0-9] # -n means dry-run; first argument is perl snippet that must transform filename in place in $_
19:33:01 <b_jonas> or just bash magic. for s in pokemon_[0-9]; do echo mv -vi "$s" "pocket_monsters_${s##pokemon_}"; done # echo is for dry run
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19:33:19 <b_jonas> there are lots of other ways too of course
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19:34:55 <b_jonas> often you want to make a backup copy of everything first, because mass renaming can go really wrong
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19:43:13 <myname> there is also a vim renamer
19:47:11 <\oren\> bash magic worked, not sure why we don't have the rename command
19:47:44 <\oren\> b_jonas: i'm not an admin
19:48:00 <\oren\> althpugh i could isntall it locally
19:48:26 <b_jonas> meh, it's a stupid utility
19:48:31 <b_jonas> might be best not installed actually
19:48:36 <\oren\> i did that with nano so that i would have the latest version
19:48:56 <b_jonas> it provides brief syntax but too many opportunities for mistakes that are hard to fix
19:49:11 <\oren\> for some reason ubuntu hasn't updated nano in their repositories in a while
19:49:14 <b_jonas> I've done complicated batch renamings (not with the perl rename tool, but in other ways)
19:49:43 <\oren\> so I had to download latest source and compile it
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20:02:55 <imode> mother fucker someone did it: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/11880/build-a-working-game-of-tetris-in-conways-game-of-life
20:06:13 <imode> oddly enough that's far more exciting than regular logic design.
20:13:14 <oerjan> well they did use a rather overengineered method, i think
20:14:24 <imode> how would you have done it.
20:25:54 <int-e> we have a working program, now it just needs to be golfed to death ;-)
20:26:58 <int-e> Is there a VHDL to GoL compiler? :P
20:28:10 <imode> it probably wouldn't be hard to build.
20:28:13 <imode> using this method.
20:28:38 <imode> but you'd need to really strip out the metapixel to do any real golfing, which means you'd need to find something reasonably smaller.
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20:49:56 <oerjan> well they're only using a few settings for the metapixel, so that might be doable.
20:56:49 <shachaf> Psychonauts is free today: https://www.humblebundle.com/store/psychonauts
20:58:17 <imode> thank you shachaf.
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21:03:17 <shachaf> Y'all should play it, it's great.
21:03:24 <shachaf> Or even if you don't, you can get it today and play it later.
21:04:20 <imode> I used to have a copy on PS2. loved that game.
21:13:44 <\oren\> is there a better way to do tail -fn+0
21:14:44 <oerjan> <int-e> Taneb: a good cat <-- http://narbonic.com/comic/july-30-august-4-2001/
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23:52:30 <wob_jonas> Do you think tomorrow's xkcd will appear early (compared to how late it's usually posted this year) so that it's before Huygens-Cassini's death?
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00:08:08 <Sgeo> Magic the Gathering question: What does the stack look like to characters in the MtG universe? Do characters experience casting a spell, then someone else casting a spell and that second spell is faster somehow?
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00:28:36 <shachaf> The stack has so much flavor.
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00:38:43 <Sgeo> `mspalist Hiveswap + music released!
00:38:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mspalist: not found
00:38:49 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ `^ \ `̀ \ ^.^ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ ( \ @ \ * \ # \ ؟ \ ⁗ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ analogy \
00:39:00 <Sgeo> What's the list for Homestuck?
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02:51:41 <HackEgo> 1/2:ocean//The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping. \ hexchat//Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham. \ icbm//ICBMs are Crumbling Building Miss
02:51:48 <HackEgo> `4 <cmd> is equivalent to `5 <cmd>, except that it only repeats 4 times. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `5.
02:51:55 <HackEgo> `5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2.
02:51:58 <HackEgo> The 1 is just for disambiguation.
02:52:02 <HackEgo> `1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4.
02:52:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
02:53:11 <shachaf> `le////rn `2017//Not confusingly not the obvious generalization of `1.
02:53:13 <HackEgo> Learned '`2017': Not confusingly not the obvious generalization of `1.
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03:22:04 <shachaf> Cale: Man, query language design is tricky.
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12:12:07 <b_jonas> I still don't understand what's with people and bitfields.
12:13:21 <b_jonas> People write all sorts of hundred file long macro packages for doing trivial operations you could do with just two &|^ bitwise ops and a shift. A lot of people try to do this for some reason. In C++ too, but also in other languages (that also have bit operations on arithmetic already trivially available). What the HECK is up with people?
12:14:15 <b_jonas> What's SO wrong with just int stuff(int flags, ...) { if (flags & 1) { ... } else { ... } } that you need deep such abstractions for it
12:15:58 <b_jonas> that eventually you can't just write stuff(0, ...); but have to write stuff(CONSTRUCT_BITFIELD(stuffmodule::stuff::argument::flags, flags = FLAGS({ stuffmodule::stuff::argument::flags::backwardsflag = (boolean)FALSE, defaults })), ...); and some similarly horrible syntax inside the function implementation
12:25:13 <int-e> @ask lambdabot how do you feel about moving back to NL?
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12:29:19 <FireFly> @can lambdabot still do this? I forget
12:47:17 <int-e> FireFly: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/commit/883f1107abc5029e668ef1b677ed0758292977f7 ... the joke had grown old.
12:47:31 <FireFly> Yeah, I thought it was removed, just checking :p
12:47:47 <FireFly> not necessarily disagreeign
12:47:51 <int-e> it's still in the hackage version anyway.
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14:06:43 <b_jonas> I just reported a bug in a tracker about a day selection input calendar popdown widget in a browser-based interface. I'm clicking on a day in the calendar and the interface chooses a different day one month after that instead. This seems repeatable.
14:06:57 <b_jonas> I sent two screenshots and a description.
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14:07:57 <b_jonas> I mean, I've reported stupid bugs before, like back ten years ago when dc -e "" segfaulted (or something like that, I'm not sure)
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19:14:31 <shachaf> Cale: Why are contravariant functors so popular?
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20:16:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53080&oldid=53078 * Zseri * (+185) new operator ~
20:23:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Point operator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53081 * Rdebath * (+343) /* Workable point operator. */ new section
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20:37:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53082&oldid=50772 * Rdebath * (+54) TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution
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21:32:40 <Cale> shachaf: Because you take what you can get, and there are a lot of accidental ones which happen to change the direction of the arrows
21:33:32 <shachaf> Cale: There's this discussion on the categories mailing list where they talk about the joke that covariant functors should be thought of as contravariant functors on the opposite category.
21:33:48 <Cale> I don't know about that
21:33:48 <shachaf> Which is only a sort of joke?
21:34:01 <Cale> Well, you have Yoneda as well
21:34:07 <shachaf> Anyway I often see people taking two abstract categories C and D, and saying "let F be a contravariant functor from C to D"
21:36:05 <Cale> It obviously doesn't make so much difference when the categories are perfectly abstract
21:37:40 <Cale> There are all these branches of mathematics and the direction of the arrows in their respective categories is somewhat an accident of how we managed to define the relationships we wanted to talk about using functions.
21:39:45 <* Taneb> now owns a copy of Introduction to the Theory of Numbers
21:39:51 <Taneb> Now I can finally figure out what a number is
21:46:22 <Taneb> At least in theory
21:51:12 <Cale> Or at least asymptotically
21:58:15 <shachaf> I guess presheaves are contravariant for some reason.
21:58:23 <shachaf> Is it fundamental or is it a coincidence?
21:58:47 <shachaf> "I always tell my students that since category theory reduces all of mathematics to the study of arrows, and the only mistake you can make with an arrow is to get confused about which way it's pointing, they should expect to spend many hours confused about exactly this."
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22:16:25 <zzo38> Now I made up word game on MIX computer
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04:52:33 <zzo38> I made the calculation by computer to figure out when a deceptive attack is better in GURPS, and to figure out whether a improved defense or double defense is better; in most cases improved defense is better, but not always. This does not consider all needing considerations though (including not knowing your opponent's attacking/defending scores, as well as other things too).
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05:36:38 <zzo38> One possible possible thing that could be done with the punch card programs loading with MIX could be for all of the cards other than the first and last card to be punched "0" in the first character position (for the first and last cards it will be blank), so that if the cards are mixed up, you can easily recover them by using a thin stick in the first zero position
05:37:02 <zzo38> The two cards it won't go through are then the first and last card, which it should be easily to tell apart. The other cards can be placed in any order and the program will still work.
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05:45:49 <zzo38> (This will not work if the program includes additional cards of data after the end of the program, although it may be possible to use different colours of cards (if you have different colours of cards available) to help that a bit)
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07:16:29 <zzo38> Have you launched Russell's teapot yet?
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08:50:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> Cale: Why are contravariant functors so popular? <-- people like being contrarian hth
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08:53:00 <shachaf> do you understand baseball twh
09:01:06 <oerjan> . o O ( understanding baseball is not cricket )
09:01:57 <shachaf> what about the "cricket is not croquet" thing
09:02:02 <shachaf> that one was p. advanced for me
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09:02:58 <oerjan> i did at one time understand croquet enough to play it.
09:03:54 <shachaf> are you a member of any fan clubs
09:04:13 <shachaf> For example the Andrej Bauer fan club?
09:04:27 <oerjan> i don't even remember who that is, even if it rings a bell
09:04:57 <oerjan> probably because you've mentioned him before
09:05:12 <shachaf> I'm sure you've encountered him elsewise.
09:05:21 <oerjan> and then promptly forgot what he was.
09:06:31 <oerjan> "Andrej Bauer (rojen 11. maj 1971) je profesor računalniške matematike na Fakulteti za matematiko in fiziko Univerze v Ljubljani v Sloveniji."
09:06:51 <oerjan> (that's the only wikipedia hit on the front page)
09:07:06 <Cale> I sometimes think it would be interesting to see pros play certain variants of baseball, for example, if each base were worth a run (or some varying number of runs), making bunts much more valuable.
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09:07:53 <Cale> They should vary the rules more, it would be interesting
09:08:13 <oerjan> . o O ( are bunts the same as wickets )
09:08:59 <Cale> bunting is where you hold the bat with both hands and hit the ball a short distance to make the opposing team run forward to get it
09:10:26 <shachaf> Cale obviously understands this game much better than I do.
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20:04:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re MIX programs, I don't think it's true that you can permute cards of the program other than the first and last card around to any order.
20:05:10 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in fact I think even in a typical program the assembler will often emit cards that rewrite a word that was written by a previous card, when you define a backreference that a far earlier part of the program has referred to.
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20:06:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: this is when the MIXAL assembler runs on a MIX machine, which usually has only as much memory as the program will run on. it might not apply to your assembler, which can emit cards differently and uses more RAM.
20:07:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: note that MMIX is trickier because its loader xors values when multiple values are loaded to the same memory word. you could do something like that in MIX too, by adding values. You have to be careful with overflows, but that doesn't cause many problems with just backreferences,
20:08:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and at least the overflow behavior is well-defined and deterministic even if you do tricks with ORG. However, this would require zeroing the entire memory first, which takes a few more instructions in the loader, and is not as natural as in MMIX, where you zero the memory anyway to protect from other processes' secrets.
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21:09:57 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I think you are right about MIXAL, yes, but my own assembler is different and outputs the entire program at the end after two passes.
21:10:45 <zzo38> So yes it does depend on the assembler and on the computer running it.
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22:45:46 <Sgeo> Using ais523 teminology, would LoL have more headroom than Dota2?
23:04:09 <zzo38> Why does the golf course have dragons?
23:04:17 <Cale> Sgeo: What do you mean by headroom?
23:06:11 <Sgeo> http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-headroom.html
23:06:25 <Sgeo> Being able to make suboptimal decisions without necessarily instantly failing
23:06:42 <Sgeo> "There are two possible extremes for the scale here. One is "no matter who you are or which choice you make, it won't affect your odds of winning the game". There are two ways to look at this situation. One is that the game is "perfectly balanced" with respect to character creation. The other is that the choice is entirely meaningless; if nobody gains an advantage from either choice, then either success or failure has nothing to do with the
23:06:42 <Sgeo> skill of the player, or else the various options play so similarly that the choice is entirely cosmetic. This situation has a very high headroom; the player can mess around with their strategy at will without any risk of the game limiting their experimentation.
23:06:42 <Sgeo> The other extreme is "one of these choices will guarantee you victory; the other will guarantee you are defeated". This is definitely a meaningful choice, now! However, it can be seen as unsatisfactory for other reasons: the choice is meaningful, but it's a false choice, in that only one option is reasonable to take. An unspoiled player may pick the wrong one, and lose, if the choice is not well-signposted. Or a player might want to pick one
23:06:47 <Sgeo> choice (because it fits in more with how they want to play the game, for instance), but be forced to take the other in order to have a chance of success. This situation has zero headroom; a player must follow the path that the game dictates for them in order to have any chance of survival."
23:06:48 <Cale> Sgeo: Ah, I think that's somewhat true.
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23:08:20 <Cale> I haven't played either game extensively, but I have watched a bunch of both, and it seems that in Dota2, the abilities tend to have much sharper effects. It doesn't necessarily mean the game is overall more challenging, but locally the play seems much more unforgiving.
23:10:04 <Sgeo> I think I'd like LoL but the business model bothers me
23:10:31 <zzo38> There can also be the challenge game. And, for the character creation, you can try to win with every combination, some may be more difficult than the others
23:19:40 <zzo38> I think that idea of the headroom though it can help I suppose. The game design can be consider such thing, although for character definition at start of game and also with challenge game, there is the other aspect of that too.
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23:56:17 <Pazzaz> Dota 2 has an All Hero Challenge where the goal is to win atleast one game with every character. It's a pretty nice way to add some variety to your games
23:56:21 <Pazzaz> https://dota2.gamepedia.com/All-Hero_Challenge
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02:43:06 <pikhq> That looks like a suspiciously familiar nick and greeting...
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03:42:25 * Sgeo goes to try Gwent
03:42:35 <Sgeo> Not sure why I see MtG people expressing enjoyment of Gwent
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03:48:15 <Sgeo> `hi T is a terrible letter.
03:48:15 <HackEgo> Hi T is a terrible letter.. His a terrible letter..
03:48:55 <Sgeo> `hi T is a terrible letter.
03:48:56 <HackEgo> Hi T is a terrible letter.. His a terrible letter..
03:52:44 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Hi $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/H/; } else { s/^./H/; } print "$_.";
03:59:38 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
04:14:41 <zzo38> Have you try to play a poker game using the tarot cards? If so, you will have to figure out the kind of hand and ranking of the hands. I made up such a list (including "impure", "semi-pure", "pure", and "all-trump" hands), but does not specify the ranking of hand, yet. Do you know what ranking it will be?
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05:07:22 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHd3xfDzTg8 awesome scene, props to the seiyuu
05:07:37 <\oren\> seriously, epic rant there
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07:58:48 <zzo38> Is there a kind of encryption that is design to make decryption very slow even if you know the key and algorithm and have a lot of parallel and/or quantum computing?
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08:25:26 <zzo38> I read about the deniable encryption and have various ideas. One document says: As soon as you have over 4 pass-phrases, the excuse "I can't recall" or "there's nothing else there" starts to sound highly plauseable.
08:26:15 <zzo38> I think that you could even make "I can't recall" to be one of the actual passwords for one of the layers, too.
08:27:45 <zzo38> (Or to be a kind of self-destruct mechanism password? You could even put in data which is meant to take advantage of vulnerabilities and damage the government's computer)
08:30:00 <zzo38> You could also frame yourself for something you didn't do (but the police won't know that until they investigate) and encrypt that.
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08:31:32 <zzo38> Multiple hidden computers (with MAC spoofing if needed, non-internet, etc) can also be in use.
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08:54:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53083&oldid=53003 * Zzo38 * (+216) The exception
08:55:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53084&oldid=53083 * Zzo38 * (+20)
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10:05:58 <\oren\> have you seen the groundbreaking research into whether cats are liquid or solid?
10:06:02 <\oren\> http://www.rheology.org/sor/publications/rheology_b/RB2014Jul.pdf#page=16
10:09:13 <\oren\> pressibilitymayalsofailforoldercats,whichcanacquire
10:09:31 <\oren\> god damn it i hate PDF;s that don't copy right
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15:29:52 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> There can also be the challenge game. And, for the character creation, you can try to win with every combination, some may be more difficult than the others" => sure, that happens.
15:31:16 <wob_jonas> there are games where people challenge themselves to win with each of the different starting character classes. I know of at least three: nethack (everyone agrees that some classes are more difficult, eg. valkyrie is one of the easiest for beginners, wizard is easiest for advanced players, some roles are hard for everyone),
15:33:06 <wob_jonas> one of the 3d fps games from id software with three classes (I don't remember the name), or even Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels which has two playable characters
15:34:54 <wob_jonas> This also seems to happen with some versus games: in Age of Mythology and extensions, in two players playing against each other (even at competitive level), sometimes challenge themselves or each other to play with a different god than their favourite
15:35:30 <wob_jonas> the favorite varies, but there are some gods that seem weaker and almost no player uses them as their favorite, even though it's not clear if there's a strongest god everyone agrees on
15:36:02 <wob_jonas> This is a great way to make the games less repetitive, because the different starting characters add not just extra difficulty, but different styles of play.
15:39:15 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Is there a kind of encryption that is design to make decryption very slow even if you know the key and algorithm and have a lot of parallel and/or quantum computing?" => yes
15:39:28 <wob_jonas> well, no, not necessarily if you know the key
15:40:41 <wob_jonas> (1) there's public-key encryption that's designed to be hard to break if you have the public key but not the private key, people started to design some because most of the currently popular public-key encryption is easy to break with a good quantum computer.
15:41:16 <wob_jonas> (2) there's one-way functions that are designed to be slow to compute (and practically impossible to reverse compute), for hashing passwords,
15:42:07 <wob_jonas> (3) and there's also one-way functions designed to be very slow to compute even if you have lots of parallel computing (also quantum, but quantum doesn't really help much for any of this anyway),
15:43:14 <wob_jonas> proposed as a sort of time-lock to lock a symmetric key for when you want to release encrypted documents in such a way that people will be able to decrypt them eventually, but not soon enough, without a trusted third party, because this would have some practical uses.
15:44:22 <wob_jonas> I haven't heard of any public-key cipher where parallel computing doesn't help, and that seems like it would be impossible, but you have have public key cipher that's hard enough to break even with all the parallel computing people will ever have.
15:44:53 <wob_jonas> And of course none of this cryptography stuff is proven, because we don't even know P=NP, all of them depend on various very reasonable hardness assumptions.
15:46:55 <wob_jonas> To clarify, (2) is used because if you hash passwords with a fast to compute one-way function and someone somehow steals the hashed password database, then they can do a dictionary attack using parallel computing, and (2) makes this somewhat less practical.
15:48:24 <wob_jonas> (3) is used because if you just use a (good) symmetric key encryption and reveal nothing about the key, then it could take so much work that nobody will be able to decrypt it, or the key could be too short so people can decrypt it in reasonable time, or anything between, but in either case parallel computing speeds up breaking the key almost linear
15:48:25 <wob_jonas> ly with the number of parallel computers,
15:49:03 <wob_jonas> so (3) is a solution to make the problem take about a fixed number of time regardless of how much parallel computers (how much money) you throw at the decryption.
15:50:47 <wob_jonas> "have you seen the groundbreaking research into whether cats are liquid or solid?" => do you mean like bonsaikitten?
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16:15:34 <HackEgo> Phở is a Vietnamese soup invented by lyyyyyyynn to stress-test implementations of Unicode combining characters.
16:15:41 <wob_jonas> => http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/hunting-man
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17:16:25 <zzo38> wob_jonas: In addition to the character classes there can be multi dimensions, such as classes and the species of your character, or classes and species and gender, or even more (which you would have to multiply together if all combinations are allowed)
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17:17:07 <wob_jonas> and people care about that in some games
17:17:25 <wob_jonas> heck, it even goes down to how I'd like to be able to make good mono-black and good mono-blue decks in M:tG
17:19:36 <zzo38> O, yes, there is the stuff like that too I suppose. (Especially if you are playing Commander, where color identity can matter; but you can do that even if you don't play Commander.) Anyways I meant single-player games in my comments anyways
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17:20:24 <wob_jonas> I don't play commander, although I like singleton/highlander decks as a challenge (whether 100 or 60 cards)
17:21:39 <zzo38> To see if it is the ordinary singleton game or the "functional singleton"
17:22:04 <wob_jonas> some constructed decks can be made singleton quite nicely, like decks where half of the non-land cards are black kill spells, because there really are that many different good kill spells; some decks really don't work like that
17:22:39 <zzo38> (And then, there is the version including the basic lands that must be the single, too)
17:24:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ordinary singleton. no card other than basics repeated with same English name throughout deck and sideboard (or throughout two decks and sideboards for a team as an extra), but a Terramorphic Expanse and an Evolving Wilds is fine
17:28:30 <int-e> I should stop moving lambdabot to a new VM every 6 months :P
17:28:51 <int-e> @google this may be broken again?
17:28:53 <lambdabot> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-18/gartmanthis-may-be-one-most-important-days-future-equity-markets
17:28:53 <lambdabot> Title: Gartman: "This May Be One Of The Most Important Days In The Future Of Equity ...
17:29:02 <int-e> well, time will tell
17:31:55 <zzo38> And, about slow decryption, I did mean symmetric algorithms
17:34:21 <int-e> @djinn a -> b -> a
17:34:38 <lambdabot> Control.Category id :: Category cat => cat a a
17:34:52 <int-e> is there any other external program that I usually forget, hmm
17:36:45 <wob_jonas> @pl \x->\a->\b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);}
17:36:45 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input
17:36:51 <wob_jonas> @pl \x->\a->\b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);}
17:36:51 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input
17:36:54 <wob_jonas> @type \x->\a->\b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);}
17:37:07 <wob_jonas> @type \x=>\a=>\b=>case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);}
17:37:37 <int-e> type \x a b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);}
17:37:38 <int-e> @type \x a b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);}
17:37:39 <zzo38> @type \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of {None -> b; Some y -> a y;}
17:37:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘None’
17:37:56 <zzo38> @type \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of {Nothing -> b; Just y -> a y;}
17:38:02 <int-e> @type \x a b->case x of {None -> b; Some y -> a y}
17:38:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘None’
17:38:29 <wob_jonas> @pl \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of {Nothing -> b; Just y -> a y;}
17:38:29 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input
17:38:35 <wob_jonas> @pl \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of Nothing -> b; Just y -> a y;
17:38:47 <wob_jonas> @type \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of Nothing -> b; Just y -> a y;
17:39:46 <int-e> I didn't think @pl does pattern matching.
17:40:06 <int-e> @pl \a b c -> b c a
17:40:13 <wob_jonas> int-e: what does it do then? only already pointfree replacements like library functions?
17:40:46 <wob_jonas> @pl f Nothing a b = b; f (Just y) a b = a y;
17:40:47 <lambdabot> expecting letter or digit, variable, "(", operator or end of input
17:41:47 <quintopia> you, the world, and the math are mistaken
17:42:05 <wob_jonas> @djinn Maybe t -> (t -> p) -> p -> p
17:42:16 <wob_jonas> @@ @pl @djinn Maybe t -> (t -> p) -> p -> p
17:43:07 <int-e> @pl really only knows abstraction and application and a few library functions
17:43:39 <wob_jonas> quintopia: https://www.xkcd.com/298/
17:43:41 <int-e> and if it sees f x y z = t, it turns that into f = \x y z -> t
17:44:46 <wob_jonas> Hoogle probably knows the answer though
17:44:52 <wob_jonas> @hoogle Maybe t -> (t -> p) -> p -> p
17:44:53 <lambdabot> Prelude maybe :: b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
17:44:53 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe maybe :: b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
17:44:53 <lambdabot> Data.Strict.Maybe maybe :: b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b
17:47:00 <wob_jonas> In https://www.xkcd.com/298/ , did black hat deliberately say "so cute" with a heart-shaped letter "o"?
17:47:34 <HackEgo> xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F.
17:49:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53085&oldid=52862 * Zzo38 * (+301)
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18:03:11 <int-e> @pl \x y z -> if x then y else z
18:03:39 <int-e> wob_jonas: that's the one bit of haskell syntax beyond application and abstraction I know about that @pl actually parses.
18:03:50 <int-e> but the treatment is a bit... silly.
18:04:12 <int-e> (if' is not a standard operator)
18:04:36 <wob_jonas> at least it parses comments, unlike some modules
18:05:24 <lambdabot> error: Not in scope: type variable ‘a’
18:05:24 <lambdabot> error: Not in scope: type variable ‘a’
18:06:20 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant to write 'forall <tvs>. <type>'?
18:07:13 <wob_jonas> typical. it's a malicious djinn that tries to interpret every comment you say as a wish.
18:08:42 <wob_jonas> "Hey, Jim! Look what I found! A real wish-fulfilling djinn!" "Jim is looking, your wish is fulfilled. Goodbye."
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19:16:33 <zzo38> Once I dreamt in a hotel someone had just exited an elevator on the third floor and I entered the same one intend to go to the fourth floor, but the only button was one labeled "Elevator" (there was no open/close button either)
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19:22:45 <shachaf> Did that button take the elevator to its own position?
19:23:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lenguage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53086 * Rottytooth * (+210) question about Lenguage
19:23:31 <zzo38> No, it took it to a secret floor.
19:24:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lenguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53087&oldid=53086 * Rottytooth * (+98) forgot to sign
19:26:23 <zzo38> In there they had some other elevators, but there seem no call button, but I figured out, the elevators are called by attempting to pry open the doors by hand. Inside these elevators they have two sets of floor buttons, as well as open, close, alarm, telephone, cellular phone, two diamonds, and four arrows (up, down, left, right).
19:30:44 <zzo38> (one hollow diamond and one filled diamond)
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19:33:18 <wob_jonas> zzo38: secret floor like https://www.xkcd.com/288/ ?
19:34:40 <wob_jonas> or like the space station in Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator?
19:36:22 <zzo38> I think not like those thing
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19:53:56 <wob_jonas> The solid diamond is probably a secondary shift key, for extra functions with fewer keys. That's how the symbol is used on one of the brands of programming calculators.
19:54:13 <wob_jonas> Wait, which brand is that? <looking up>
19:57:17 <wob_jonas> TI. newer TI programmable calculators like TI-89
19:59:01 <wob_jonas> And this seems like a new feature, the previous TI programmables didn't have it.
20:00:31 <wob_jonas> This doesn't explain what the hollow diamond does though.
20:01:34 <zzo38> My TI-92 calculator also has a solid diamond like that too
20:01:58 <wob_jonas> yes, the TI-92 and the TI-89 are very similar
20:02:25 <wob_jonas> they're the same generation, one of them just has a bigger keypad with a qwerty alphabetic set of keys
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20:27:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lenguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53088&oldid=53087 * Zzo38 * (+162)
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20:56:49 <int-e> . o O ( Quern was pretty good, though also a tad buggy... savegames don't store all state, with consequences ranging from annoying (having to redo something that you had already done) to, in one case just before the end of the game, closing a door that you cannot open again, locking you in and making the game impossible to finish. (This is the Linux version, but that really shouldn't matter...
20:56:55 <int-e> ...(unity engine).) )
20:57:26 <wob_jonas> fungot, do you know glitches about saving games?
20:57:26 <fungot> wob_jonas: in this fallacy, t-rex?
20:58:05 <shachaf> Did you get Psychonauts when it was free the other day?
20:58:29 <int-e> shachaf: I saw that, but there was no point.
20:58:53 <int-e> (I already own a copy, have played it through a few years ago.)
21:00:29 <zzo38> Other games also have some glitches about saving games (once someone complained about a MegaZeux game they were making where the robots started moving in the wrong direction if the quicksave key is pushed; since I have previously examined the MegaZeux source codes (in order to modify it, mainly), I have been able to identify exactly which subroutine is causing this problem).
21:01:26 <zzo38> Some VMs are designed to avoid problems with save games, and/or may just have their own save game function anyways (MegaZeux does this). RogueVM is my own design and one of its feature is specifically the design to avoid problem with save games.
21:01:59 <wob_jonas> Yes, savegame glitches are popular. Ones where some of the state isn't restored when you reload are the easiest, but there are also crazy ones people get by interrupting the save to slow eprom on older game consoles that didn't make the saves atomic..
21:02:31 <int-e> wob_jonas: I wasn't doing a speedrun :P
21:03:02 <int-e> (nor was I trying to root my PC.)
21:04:05 <zzo38> (Unlike Z-machine, RogueVM has "display segments", so it is like having video memory, but it isn't actually video memory but rather normal memory that uses a display program to display it, if the display bit is set for that segment.)
21:05:09 <zzo38> Do you like RogueVM?
21:12:53 <wob_jonas> int-e: the save glitches can help complete the game easier even if you're not speedrunning. Although it can feel like cheating. There's a particularly easy one save glitch in the Commander Keen series that lets you skip many of the levels.
21:16:38 <wob_jonas> (It's quite funny, basically it forgets to save or restore the fact that you're dead, so you save when you're dead and reload and end up in an undead state.)
21:18:01 <int-e> "In a similar vein, Keen can see what is offscreen by saving his game" -- I think that's the only one I knew
21:19:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Moon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53089&oldid=47024 * HereToAnnoy * (+395) still working on hellborne?
21:19:41 <zzo38> Many computer games I have played you can save game, but if you do the restoring is at the beginning of that level (with your score, arrows, etc as they were at the start of the level). Some game (such as Apogee's Arctic Adventure) will automatically do that for you (and actually only allows saving on the map anyways).
21:20:02 <zzo38> Cosmo's Cosmic Adventure seems to have a bug; if you save on a bonus level, it restores on the wrong level.
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21:43:49 <izabera> dumb furry artists draw themselves hanging from power cables https://2.bp.blogspot.com/O65fmrug_jnuU7HDonP2MllLQBJ_hF3G1QF4Fxf1KPUlWcs5tUBkhh1YfLwihBd_NMyd7xOniMUY=s0
21:44:10 <izabera> without realizing how power cables work and why birds can do it and why cows can't
21:54:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53090&oldid=53079 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) /* JavaScript interpreter (7 bytes) */ is now 6 bytes
21:55:34 <int-e> izabera: . o O ( she should should probably lose some weight before trying that trick )
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21:58:14 <imode> sometimes I look at things like that and remember how good I have it.
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21:58:58 <zzo38> Then people who draw that should learn better; you can write to them such notice
21:59:20 <wob_jonas> izabera: that does look like she's sitting on just one wire, not multiple wires. and cows supposedly can't even go down a stairs or something.
22:03:18 <imode> the way the authors of that tetris-in-GoL thing accomplished their goal is nothing short of amazing.
22:03:48 <imode> mulitple metapixels following different rules.. damn.
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22:19:52 <zzo38> Who is <check212014@gmail.com>? I have received attempts to my server (from 88.116.57.10) attempting to relay mail to them (always rejected).
22:20:05 <zzo38> imode: I have not seen such thing?
22:21:19 <imode> zzo38: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/11880/build-a-working-game-of-tetris-in-conways-game-of-life
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02:02:42 <\oren\> At least SOMEBODY made a good fighter combat game for PC even if it wasn't bandai namco
02:05:23 <alercah> why would it have been bandai namco?
02:06:11 <\oren\> alercah: they make ace combat series
02:06:56 <\oren\> but the only title for PC is "ace combat assault horizon" which is total crap
02:07:33 <\oren\> http://store.steampowered.com/app/242130/
02:08:18 <\oren\> but apparently somebody made a proper recreation of the classic ace combat games
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03:23:23 <zzo38> Why does bash believe that the only files I will want to open with Firefox are HTML files? It isn't; sometimes I want to load PDF files, SVG files, and sometimes even plain text files (mainly for printing), too.
03:24:38 <shachaf> Maybe because Firefox is often called a "web browser".
03:24:59 <zzo38> Yes, but I also use it for PDF (since I don't have another program for PDF)
03:25:16 <shachaf> Perhaps the authors of the computer code that things you only want to open HTML files have never used Firefox.
03:25:33 <shachaf> They only made their decision based on the one-line description of the program.
03:25:57 <zzo38> I could probably alter it easily enough, although still there it is.
03:26:30 <shachaf> The people who make it should learn better; you can write to them such notice
03:27:19 <alercah> it's not bash, it's whoever writes the default completions
03:27:21 <zzo38> I don't know who made that part of the code
03:27:37 <alercah> bash completions are customizable
03:27:51 <zzo38> alercah: Yes, but I thought they were written by the same people
03:28:04 <alercah> I try not to assume that sort of thing
03:28:08 <alercah> it's a separate package on debian
03:28:41 <zzo38> O, OK, I did not know that
03:37:11 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible to make bash completions for some commands to be able to use SQL queries for the completions? (I have a shell script where this would be useful)
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03:38:41 <alercah> I believe you can call arbitrary binaries
03:38:56 <shachaf> Yes, it's just a bash function.
03:42:43 <zzo38> Specifically the following SQL query is what I use: select moz_bookmarks.title from moz_places, moz_bookmarks on moz_places.id = moz_bookmarks.fk where not hidden; I use it with another shell script which makes a different SQL query on the same database in order to load Firefox with the named bookmark as the loaded URL. (I name all of my bookmarks with single words making them easily to type)
03:51:14 <shachaf> zzo38: What database software do you like, other than sqlite?
03:54:05 <zzo38> SQLite is all I use for databases
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03:56:29 <alercah> what about for distributed systems?
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03:57:03 <shachaf> Are there any good scalable open-source databases that aren't key-value stores?
03:57:45 <zzo38> I don't know, but you could write a driver to use them with SQLite4 perhaps, if you want to use a key-value store as a SQL database.
03:59:09 <zzo38> (I think SQLite4 does support shard keys, in case you need that feature.)
04:01:27 <zzo38> The documentation describes how that is working. Any columns which are the keys are stored as part of the key using such an encoding so that a binary sort will sort them in the correct order. The table number is also stored at the beginning of the key, using a variable integer encoding.
04:06:24 <shachaf> zzo38: I was reading about how cockroachdb was implementing SQL recently, https://www.cockroachlabs.com/blog/sql-in-cockroachdb-mapping-table-data-to-key-value-storage/
04:06:30 <shachaf> I don't like the name of that company.
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04:06:37 <shachaf> I'll do my best not to use their product because of the name.
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04:15:22 <zzo38> It is different than what SQLite4 does.
04:20:13 <zzo38> (I also think if you hate it due to their name, that is not a very good reason to avoid using it. However, you may have other reasons to use or don't use it, which can be OK.)
04:21:41 <shachaf> No, that's pretty much the main reason.
04:22:08 <shachaf> I hope they nearly fail and are forced by their investors to chang their name.
04:24:15 <zzo38> Well, it is your choice to use or don't, but in my opinion it is not a very good reason. (I also don't hate their name, but even if so, isn't the very good reason, unless perhaps you are also using another program with the same name and makes it confusing.)
04:24:54 <shachaf> No, I just don't like cockroaches.
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04:29:01 <zzo38> This is the SQLite4 description http://sqlite.org/src4/doc/trunk/www/index.wiki
04:33:31 <shachaf> Have you designed another database query language?
04:34:10 <zzo38> I have not designed another one; I think SQL is OK (there are some things that are difficult with it, but mostly it is OK)
04:34:53 <shachaf> SQL is not so bad. But I think it's possible to do much better probably.
04:35:18 <zzo38> Maybe you are correct; I don't know
04:35:52 <shachaf> Of course it depends on the application.
04:39:51 <zzo38> SQL seems good for querying SQL databases and also CSV and similar stuff, although to query something such as a RDF graph will be difference
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09:44:49 <kurolox> Hey fizzie, I'm not sure if you're around here. do you know any way of setting up the locale inside umlbox?
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10:18:30 <fizzie> kurolox: The same way you'd do it outside, pretty much. The kernel isn't really involved. On HackEgo we call essentially "umlbox env LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 X" to run X.
10:19:14 <kurolox> so env changes are permanent inside the sandbox?
10:20:42 <fizzie> I'm not sure what "permanent" means this context. It works the same way as always, children inherit the environment from the parent.
10:21:02 <kurolox> Well, I mean this. https://i.imgur.com/DIRXDjL.png
10:21:35 <kurolox> because the locale between umlbox and the host are quite different.
10:21:36 <fizzie> No, we just wrap every execution inside env.
10:21:54 <fizzie> That was the "X" part of "env LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 X".
10:22:17 <fizzie> As in, when someone says `foo, we run env LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 foo. (Omitting some details here.)
10:22:17 <kurolox> oh, okay. Now I understand.
10:22:36 <kurolox> For some reason I was thinking that you were trying to run a X session with umlbox, not that X was "insert whatever here"
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10:23:18 <fizzie> I was thinking of saying <command> instead, but was wary of '<'s and '>'s.
10:23:50 <kurolox> okay, thanks for the help.
10:27:56 <fizzie> There's a more "direct" way of setting environment in umlbox in that the init binary's configuration file format has an 'env' command, but I don't think the stock umlbox script ever uses that.
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10:56:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's not bash's beleif, that's the belief of debian who wrote all those crazy custom completion scripts. I start by disabling those.
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15:49:48 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot
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16:42:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53091&oldid=53085 * B jonas * (+1764)
16:47:59 <HackEgo> boredome:The Boredome is a dangerous place swarming with woodpeckers, dentists, and bookworms. \ wisdome:The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
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17:14:38 <b_jonas> hmm, what was the last olist?
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17:16:46 <HackEgo> olist 1099: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:48:50 <HackEgo> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
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21:32:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53092&oldid=53033 * Stefan-hering * (+4050)
21:34:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53093&oldid=53092 * Stefan-hering * (+0)
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22:37:53 <\oren\> "Russia is a big country. Russia helps the United States run the International Space Station. Other countries also help with the space station. But only Russian spacecraft carry people to it right now." -- NASA official website
22:38:32 <ais523> \oren\: using that language? :-D
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23:06:57 <\oren\> Apparently a WaPo writer was disciplined for criticizing jeff bezos
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23:56:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53094&oldid=53091 * B jonas * (-1) /* Instruction opcodes */
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00:06:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53095&oldid=53094 * B jonas * (+316)
00:07:46 <HackEgo> 1/2:spaghetti stack//A spaghetti stack is the most edible data structure. \ doublethink//Doublethink is the ability to hold the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.) \ match//Can a match box? No, but a tin can. \ marmite//Marmite is a hive mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the sup
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00:07:51 <HackEgo> 2/2:ermarkets of the Commonwealth. \ bottom//Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism, if not careful. There be balrogs.
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00:22:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53096&oldid=53095 * B jonas * (+169) /* Instruction opcodes */
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00:33:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53097&oldid=53096 * B jonas * (+168)
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01:27:00 <ais523> `cwlprints doublethink
01:27:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cwlprints: not found
01:30:38 <oerjan> . o O ( goes well with a triple latte )
01:36:58 <shachaf> do you like avocado toast too
01:37:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international brig for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
01:38:14 <oerjan> i don't really have a relationship with avocado outside guacamole, which i haven't had for ages.
01:39:31 <oerjan> i haven't had toast for ages either, i think
01:40:36 <oerjan> quite possibly not since i moved, or even longer
01:41:33 <oerjan> (my favorite restaurant until 2010 had a nice eggs, toast and sausages lunch, though)
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03:48:24 <Sgeo> http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-193-eric-jonas-on-could-a-neuroscientist-understand-a-mic.html
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22:08:59 <shachaf> Does anyone else here read Matt Levine?
22:09:33 <HackEgo> 3908:2013-10-14 <oerjän> revert \ 3907:2013-10-14 <Phantom__Hoovër> rm bin/*list \ 2484:2013-03-22 <shachäf> chmod +x bin/*list \ 2481:2013-03-21 <shachäf> mv *list bin/ \ 2432:2013-03-14 <Phantom_Hoovër> rm bin/?*list \ 2418:2013-03-12 <ellioẗt> revert 2416 \ 2417:2013-03-12 <Sgëo> revert 2243 \ 2356:2013-03-03 <zzo3̈8> echo "echo S
22:09:52 <HackEgo> 2355:2013-03-03 <zzo3̈8> echo "Seeing a philosopher" > bin/mlist; chmod +x bin/mlist \ 2356:2013-03-03 <zzo3̈8> echo "echo Seeing a philosopher" > bin/mlist; chmod +x bin/mlist \ 2417:2013-03-12 <Sgëo> revert 2243 \ 2418:2013-03-12 <ellioẗt> revert 2416 \ 2432:2013-03-14 <Phantom_Hoovër> rm bin/?*list \ 2481:2013-03-21 <shachäf> mv *list
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00:55:31 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mlist
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03:17:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[REBEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53098&oldid=41220 * Kendfrey * (-9) Linked to new REBEL page on GitHub
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03:32:45 <Sgeo> https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/queue
03:32:57 <Sgeo> Good card? Bad card? Too expensive/cheap? Too rarely useful?
03:34:20 <shachaf> I've thought of that card before.
03:34:29 <shachaf> Well, the one I thought of said "until end of turn".
03:59:27 <Sgeo> Does that "most-recently added" vary as the stack changes as I intended, or is it more static?
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06:36:20 <\oren\> MFW his name is apparently worf not wharf
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09:34:51 <b_jonas> I had a strange dream where there was a voice-controlled gas stove on display in a home appliance store after closing time, and it kept burning with a jumpy big yellow flame since someone shouted a command to it through the window pane.
09:36:34 <b_jonas> Now I know this dream is unrealistic, because (1) flame would be blue, not yellow, (2) there would be multiple small blue flames, you get a big uneven flame only if the burner is dirty from cooking, and they wouldn't display a dirty stove,
09:37:06 <b_jonas> (3) they don't actually connect the appliances on display into the water and gas supply, they just display them in an inert state.
09:38:23 <b_jonas> The rest of the dream gets more believable as I keep thinking about it though. Yes, a store would manage to import a spectacularly unsafe home appliance. Yes, they would be able to get a qualified gas technician to install it.
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09:39:58 <b_jonas> Now I'm too afraid to search on the internet whether this exists. I'd probably find even instructions for how to log into it through wifi with the hard-coded admin password and what commands you can send to it that way.
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09:59:18 <\oren\> b_jonas: and unfortunately my company is in that sort of business...
10:02:10 <\oren\> so it is entirely possible one day code i write will partially be responsible for such an incident
10:05:27 <\oren\> really the code on such a device should, theoretically have safeguards
10:07:57 <b_jonas> \oren\: it's the hardware that should have safeguards. and even if it were done safely, a voice-activated stove sounds like a really bad idea. just imagine cleaning it with a kid around.
10:09:01 <b_jonas> (although I know there's some market for houses that are horribly unsafe for kids.)
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18:01:45 <Slereah> I'm trying to make a graphical version of a quantum computer but representing entanglement ain't easy
18:02:04 <Slereah> A singule qubit is cluttered enough graphically as it is
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19:37:59 <int-e> . o O ( everybody else is an impostor, too )
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21:37:17 <doesthiswork> slereah: what graphical presentation do you have so far?
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22:50:44 <tswett> Does Magic: the Gathering have any cards that create tokens (or otherwise place abilities on other permanents) which refer back to the original card by name?
22:51:26 <tswett> A hypothetical example is if Pentavus had been written with the following ability:
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22:51:57 <tswett> (1), Remove a +1/+1 counter from Pentavus: Create a 1/1 colorless Pentavite artifact creature token with flying. It has "(1), Sacrifice Pentavite: Put a +1/+1 counter on Pentavus."
22:53:06 <shachaf> `mkx bin/cbn//card-by-name "$@"
22:53:20 <HackEgo> Pentavus \ 7 \ Artifact Creature -- Construct \ 0/0 \ Pentavus enters the battlefield with five +1/+1 counters on it. \ {1}, Remove a +1/+1 counter from Pentavus: Create a 1/1 colorless Pentavite artifact creature token with flying. \ {1}, Sacrifice a Pentavite: Put a +1/+1 counter on Pentavus. \ MRD-R, HOP-R, M12-R, C14-R, DDF-R
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22:59:12 <tswett> Now I'm pondering how easy it would be to implement combinator calculus as Magic cards.
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23:11:47 <tswett> I. Artifact Creature - Equipment. Whenever I becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then I becomes a copy of that creature.
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23:12:22 <tswett> K. Artifact Creature - Equipment. Whenever K becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then K loses this ability and gains "Whenever K becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then K becomes a copy of the first exiled creature."
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23:15:20 <tswett> W. Artifact Creature - Equipment. Whenever W becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then W loses this ability and gains "Whenever W becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then W becomes a copy of the first exiled creature, then create a copy of the second exiled creature, then attach W to that copy. Whenever W becomes a copy of another creature, create a copy of the second exiled creature, then attach W to that copy."
23:15:32 <tswett> I'm not sure that would even work at all.
23:31:25 <\oren\> hmm... what about a card that creates tokens that do nothing
23:34:53 <HackEgo> Gutter Grime \ 4G \ Enchantment \ Whenever a nontoken creature you control dies, put a slime counter on Gutter Grime, then create a green Ooze creature token with "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of slime counters on Gutter Grime." \ ISD-R
23:36:42 <\oren\> gambler's rage \ R \ instant \ Destroy target counter.
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23:38:11 <alercah> \oren\: there are a few cards that just remove counters, yeah
23:38:22 <alercah> `cbn chisei, heart of oceans
23:38:23 <HackEgo> Chisei, Heart of Oceans \ 2UU \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 4/4 \ Flying \ At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Chisei, Heart of Oceans unless you remove a counter from a permanent you control. \ BOK-R
23:38:28 <alercah> why is that exact match :(
23:39:49 <shachaf> I think there are other commands.
23:39:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:40:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*card*a: No such file or directory
23:40:09 <HackEgo> bin/card-by-name \ bin/random-card
23:40:25 <shachaf> `random-card heart of oceans
23:40:26 <HackEgo> Chisei, Heart of Oceans \ 2UU \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 4/4 \ Flying \ At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Chisei, Heart of Oceans unless you remove a counter from a permanent you control. \ BOK-R
23:40:36 <shachaf> `mkx bin/rc//random-card "$@"
23:40:59 <\oren\> hmm, there don't seem to be any cards that "destroy target creature token"
23:41:21 <HackEgo> Aether Snap \ 3BB \ Sorcery \ Remove all counters from all permanents and exile all tokens. \ DST-R, C14-R
23:41:43 <HackEgo> Dogged Hunter \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Nomad \ 1/1 \ {T}: Destroy target creature token. \ OD-R
23:42:16 <\oren\> hmm, I must be using a crappy card searching method
23:43:19 <\oren\> yeah i was using it wrong... obviously there are no cards with "destroy target creature token" in the name
23:44:46 <HackEgo> Aether Snap \ 3BB \ Sorcery \ Remove all counters from all permanents and exile all tokens. \ DST-R, C14-R
23:45:06 <\oren\> it would hilariously confusing to have a card named Target Creature though
23:47:14 <alercah> "Whenever a player casts a spell that targets a single creature, change its target to Target Creature."
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23:47:33 <HackEgo> Creature Guy \ 3G \ Creature -- Beast \ 3/3 \ Gotcha -- Whenever an opponent says "Creature" or "Guy," you may say "Gotcha!" If you do, return Creature Guy from your graveyard to your hand. \ UNH-U
23:48:15 <HackEgo> Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil \ 8BB \ Creature -- Demon Child \ 8/8 \ Flying, first strike, trample \ If you say "I'm coming, too!" as you search your library, you may pay {1}{B} and reveal Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil from your library to have it deal 2 damage to a player of your choice. Do this no more than once each turn.
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01:17:10 <shachaf> Is there a language where it's common for e.g. variable names to contain spaces?
01:23:11 <shachaf> Anyway I mean a language where it's actually common, not just idiomatic.
01:24:01 <shachaf> https://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/comp455/Algol60.pdf doesn't seem to mention it, anyway.
01:34:09 <HackEgo> Arjun, the Shifting Flame \ 4UR \ Legendary Creature -- Sphinx Wizard \ 5/5 \ Flying \ Whenever you cast a spell, put the cards in your hand on the bottom of your library in any order, then draw that many cards. \ C15-M
01:34:22 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecipherable is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it.
01:34:47 <shachaf> `swrjan s/indecipherable/shifting flame/
01:34:49 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifting flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it.
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01:36:48 <shachaf> `swrjan s/shifting/shifty/
01:36:51 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it.
01:39:27 <shachaf> `` doag oerjan | grep thrice
01:39:52 <shachaf> `` dowg oerjan | grep thrice
01:40:01 <HackEgo> 11156:2017-08-18 <boil̈y> slwd oerjan//s/twice/thrice/
01:42:32 <oerjan> i hereby shifty the blame to boily
01:45:26 <shachaf> 15:53:55 <oerjan> helloily. well the logs perviously spoke of child porn.
01:45:38 <shachaf> 15:54:04 * oerjan decided not to fix that misspelling.
01:45:44 <shachaf> It seems to me that you did notice it.
01:46:19 <oerjan> you'll have to discuss that with boily hth
01:46:37 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
01:46:56 <oerjan> sic transit gloria mundi
01:46:58 <shachaf> @tell boily I downgraded oerjan to twice punned, because he did notice the pun.
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01:49:48 <HackEgo> 1/2:hand//A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird. \ it'//It's written with an apostrophe. \ rincewind//Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes. \ finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. \ overflow//Overflow is a phenomenon that
01:50:05 <HackEgo> 2/2: occurs when too much water pours into the inner tanks of a hydraulic computer.
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05:09:02 <\oren\> Ephedrine is my favorite amine!
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06:54:05 <Slereah> King of the Hill is my favorite anime
06:54:50 <Slereah> doesthiswork : One color for the probability of the state and two dots for the phase
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07:19:37 <hppavilion[1]> Depth Perception works in VR because the headset gives a parallax effect, so objects that you should perceive as closer to you are rendered in different positions on each screen (closer to the middle- near your nose)
07:20:17 <hppavilion[1]> The closer they should be, the closer they are together on the screens
07:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> If they're in the same position on each screen, you perceive them abstractly as "far away"- effectively infinite, really, even though it really isn't
07:21:20 <hppavilion[1]> But... what happens if they're farther apart? Where does your brain perceive them to be when you look??
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10:08:39 <impomatic> Does anyone know if PDFs of The C Users Journal are available anywhere. archive.org only has the March 1994 issue.
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16:18:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CANICVS * New user account
16:20:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53099&oldid=53070 * CANICVS * (+184)
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19:18:22 <\oren\> CANADA IS IN AN ANIME https://youtu.be/a822uufNGlw
19:20:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53100&oldid=53080 * Zseri * (+394) +Version 2
19:23:22 <doesthiswork> that was the most disorienting sensation of /why?/ until I saw that it was sponsored by the canadian tourism board
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21:44:48 <\oren\> brandonson: they put canada in an anime
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01:09:16 <ais523> huh, apparently shift-space scrolls one page upwards in my browser (I just pressed it by accident then tried to figure out what had happened)
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02:55:16 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international hypercube for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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03:48:02 <shachaf> Yes, it does that. And web pages that override space to do their own scrolling hardly ever remember to override shift-space. Very annoying.
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03:53:06 <oerjan> web pages are _able_ to override navigation keys. Very meta-annoying.
03:56:22 <ais523> something that annoys me is how the proportion of web pages that use JavaScript is much, much higher than the proportion of web pages that actually need it
03:58:42 <doesthiswork> microtransactions would solve that. Clients could charge the host a small fee for every line of script executed.
03:59:46 <Hooloovo0> that is such a horrifically bad idea but I like it
03:59:47 <ais523> that seems hard to implement in other ways
04:00:06 <ais523> a good fix would be for search engines to penalise sites with unnecessary JS
04:00:22 <ais523> but Google will never do that as they're one of the main beneficiaries (adverts are a common use of unnecessary JavaScript)
04:00:33 <ais523> (and Google Analytics is another)
04:02:05 <ais523> duckduckgo can't easily give bonuses or penalties to sites, as they mostly don't run their own crawlers, but instead hire other engines'
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10:40:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thf772 * New user account
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10:58:37 <b_jonas> "<ais523> something that annoys me is how the proportion of web pages that use JavaScript is much, much higher than the proportion of web pages that actually need it" => yes, and many of them use javascript that needs a huge computer to just run it
10:58:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53101&oldid=53099 * Thf772 * (+735) /* Introducing Nathan/Eilisha Shiraini */
10:59:02 <b_jonas> and they keep changing existing sites to contain more and more performance hungry client-side scripting (youtube is a recent example for such a stupid change)
11:00:21 <b_jonas> "<ais523> but Google will never do that as they're one of the main beneficiaries (adverts are a common use of unnecessary JavaScript)" => the adverts don't actually need all that much javascript. you could practically do them with just iframes and no javascript, the javascript is only there to simplify it or size the iframe right or something.
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11:00:50 <ais523> b_jonas: they shouldn't need the JavaScript; nonetheless, disabling JavaScript pretty much universally blocks adverts
11:00:59 <ais523> maybe it's unnecessary even in the adverts themselves
11:01:09 <ais523> or maybe it's an attempt to track the users of the sites the adverts are on
11:01:24 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but at least most of the ads don't use javascript that needs a very powerful machine to run it, except for the ads on wikia
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11:01:34 <b_jonas> and the video ads on video sites
11:03:10 <b_jonas> ais523: no, the javascript isn't really needed for tracking. you need the separate iframe for the ad because the ad is personalized and so google can't allow the individual websites to find out what ad they're serving for particular users, and iframes are practically the only way to solve this,
11:03:31 <b_jonas> and once you have an iframe, that's more or less enough to track the users.
11:04:48 <b_jonas> unless you want such complicated things as transferring all the mouse movements and all the characters you type in input fields even before you backspace or don't submit the form, which google could do with the javascript, but presumably if they did it too obviously, there'd be a strong backlash from the sites that show those ads.
11:05:44 <b_jonas> so google can only do it on their own sites, which is still quite important, with google search and gmail and youtube and their other big sites.
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11:06:02 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me, a question about google
11:06:26 <b_jonas> why are they hiding google scholar? it's not even in the "more" menu of the google search now, and it's been like this for years.
11:06:57 <b_jonas> but they also aren't discontinuing it, in fact they've improved it so it does a lot of personalized tracking, and recommends you articles connected to your articles, like the academic spambots do
11:07:38 <b_jonas> sure, it's still in their big "More" menu that lists all their sites, but that's a huge list few people read I think
11:08:28 <b_jonas> it could be just in the selection bar for searches which has "All, Images, Videos, News, Maps, Books" and used to also have shopping blogs, scholar, code etc, some of them in a pulldown menu
11:08:58 <b_jonas> I can understand when they discontinue a service, but I don't get why they keep running and improving a service but hiding it.
11:11:15 <b_jonas> Their discontinued services include code hosting (probably got taken over by github and its kin), code search (this was very useful, but proably didn't bring much income), Square (I'm not sure if anyone used it much), and Wave (which was some kind of social communication thingy like Plus I think).
11:11:44 <b_jonas> Oh, and shopping search is discontinued too.
11:12:11 <b_jonas> And the moon and mars maps I think, but those were always just a joke.
11:13:26 <b_jonas> Those maps were pretty impossible by the way, they seemed to show higher resolution maps than space agencies ever scanned with their probes. I don't know how they got that data.
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12:21:47 <FireFly> https://twitter.com/belleveinvis/status/911172578831622144 ← this reminds me of the problem of overstriking… I guess one could argue ⿻ is a reasonable way to encode general-purpose overstriking
12:22:35 <FireFly> as in, even outside of CJK glyphs
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16:29:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53102 * CANICVS * (+4145) Initial commit
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17:15:55 <HackEgo> per serving. Makes about 3 days and test with serving \ remaining remaining sugar mixture. Microwave each one casserole in cool \ sides. 3. In a large bowl, combine flour, cinnamon, cream and \ the corn drained rosemary seed. Sprinkle with ganzies. Add \ chicken in saucepan. Simmer for an hour. Prepare fruit of soup. Spread \ squares. \
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19:39:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zseri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53103&oldid=52989 * Zseri * (+10) +XTW
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20:07:49 <PinealGlandOptic> hi everyone! am I right that algo in O(2^n) complexity is in P? or...?
20:10:02 <Taneb> PinealGlandOptic, I think you are not right. Any polynomial in n tends to less than 2^n
20:10:51 <Taneb> PinealGlandOptic, EXPTIME I Think
20:12:25 <PinealGlandOptic> here is what I think. to solve SAT problem (in CNF) form, we can just brute force all variables. this is 2^variables steps in total. does it mean that bruteforcer is in EXPTIME?
20:12:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GilDev * New user account
20:14:02 <Taneb> PinealGlandOptic, that sounds right
20:14:38 <Taneb> We know that SAT is in NP, however
20:15:10 <PinealGlandOptic> Taneb: yes. but EXPTIME and bruteforce is "slower" than usual SAT solver?
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20:25:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53104&oldid=53101 * GilDev * (+272) Presentation
20:34:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53105&oldid=53072 * GilDev * (-3) Fixed broken link
20:37:44 <zzo38> I agree too many pages have scripts when they shouldn't have. (Sometimes it may be useful to verify form data, although it should never be a requirement, and the server should verify it too so that it work if script is not enabled.)
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21:42:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimPPLe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53106 * YourDeathIsComing * (+1914) Created page with "'''SimPPLe (Simple Probabilistic Programming Language)''' is a probabilistic programming language. Most programs written in this language, produce different results every time..."
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00:10:21 <shachaf> sleffy: Mill talk on IPC in San Jose in a couple of weeks.
00:10:54 <sleffy> Probably can't make it but whoaaaaa
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03:10:46 <zzo38> One golf course in this computer game is "Par 3 Golf Course", but actually it is some par 4 also, and the total par is 60
03:11:15 <zzo38> Do you like to go golfing in the rain?
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03:35:17 <zzo38> I tried loading one DOS game on my Linux computer and now the level editor is not work properly. It won't save properly, but the game itself is otherwise working OK.
03:35:25 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong with it please?
03:36:53 <zzo38> It works fine on a real DOS computer.
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07:36:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SimPPLe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53107&oldid=53106 * YourDeathIsComing * (+54)
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08:49:32 * Taneb is for some ungodly reason writing an ed-like text editor in Haskell
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09:53:50 <Capaverde> can I create a language called brainfuarrrk?
09:56:40 <Capaverde> the idea came to me now, because of a word filter, to add replace rules to brainfuck, which'd function similarly to functions or macros
09:57:28 <ais523> I think lots of languages along those lines have been created already
09:57:35 <ais523> you might want to look at the existing attempts for inspiration
09:57:46 <ais523> ofc that doesn't necessarily mean that you couldn't come up with something better
09:58:12 <ais523> however, it doesn't take too much work to make replace rules Turing-complete on their own (see, e.g., /// or Thue)
09:58:27 <ais523> so maybe you don't even need the BF part of the language
09:59:29 <Capaverde> well, the brainfuck part is practical
09:59:48 <Taneb> I don't think brainfuck can really be described as "practical"
10:00:19 <ais523> the main impracticality in Thue is purely that it's bad at exchanging information
10:00:35 <Capaverde> maybe not practical to write in but practical to interpret
10:01:13 <ais523> add anything that makes it capable of doing that, i.e. moving to a language like Retina, and suddenly you have something that's very powerful (from the point of view of "it's easy to see how to write programs in this")
10:01:53 <ais523> also, it's surely easier to write a substitution language than a substitution + tape language?
10:03:43 <Capaverde> I wad thinking of BF arithmetic the other day
10:04:29 <Capaverde> when I came up with a new operator for repetition
10:04:49 <Capaverde> which would substitute the loop rules
10:08:42 <Capaverde> my substitutions would be on symbols though
10:09:16 <Capaverde> how is thue bad at exchanging information?
10:11:05 <ais523> it's very hard to write a Thue program that takes a string of consonants followed by a string of vowels, and returns the same string with the two halves swapped (vowels first then consonants), for example
10:11:16 <ais523> it's even harder to write a program that takes a string of letters and reverses it
10:11:37 <ais523> both are possible, but much more difficult than they really should be, you have to write a very large number of cases
10:15:57 <ais523> hmm… just thinking about this, a 2-dimensional Thue would be much better at this sort of thing
10:16:15 <ais523> because then you could move the data round each other rather than through
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10:25:10 <int-e> . o O ( I'd call the former tedious, not hard, since it's not difficult to implement a stable sort by swapping )
10:26:07 <int-e> the reversal otoh, hmm. that's not even possible without marking the end of the string somehow or using a new set of symbols for the result.
10:34:31 <Capaverde> it should be possible but tedious again
10:39:08 <Capaverde> not sure exactly how though, if there are no accumulators
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10:47:46 <int-e> something like this... oh too late. http://sprunge.us/HiBR
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14:33:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53108&oldid=53100 * Zseri * (-131)
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17:45:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Essays]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53109 * Zseri * (+82) Created page with "* [[Essays/A_Defence_of_Brainfuck_Derivatives|A Defence of Brainfuck Derivatives]]"
18:09:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53110&oldid=53066 * Zseri * (+60)
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18:20:24 <rdococ> Concept: function whose local variable scope is defined at creation, rather than run, time. the scope would be per-thread, avoiding race conditions, but a function would be able to access local variables it modified in an earlier call.
18:21:33 <rdococ> With that would also be reified scopes themselves - scopes would be objects containing (1) an associative array mapping local variable names to their values, and (2) a reference to the scope they were initialized in, which ties in with the above concept and naturally givers rise to closures.
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18:59:51 <wob_jonas> I don't get why the norwegian.com website quotes me airplane tickets sometimes in USD and sometimes in GBP currency. I was logged in with the same account.
19:00:09 <wob_jonas> I don't care whether they give me one or the other, but changing confuses me.
19:13:53 <wob_jonas> I was surprised when it quoted me with tickets that seemed to cost 70% the price it gave a few days ago. Until I read the currency.
19:14:13 <wob_jonas> The price didn't actually change significantly.
19:14:58 <wob_jonas> It doesn't matter what I pay in, because it's an online bank card payment, and the ban
19:15:06 <wob_jonas> k charges very cheap rates for currency conversion for that.
19:17:19 <wob_jonas> The rates are very high for direct money transfer in any foreign currency, so even if I can nominally have an account containing foreign currency at the bank cheaply, I can't actually send it to anyone or pay with it or pretty much anything useful.
19:17:43 <wob_jonas> But for just online payment with my HUF bank card with any currency they support, they convert cheaply.
19:36:18 <wob_jonas> Web design question. I want to add a spinner loading animation to my javascript website. I want it to be Coriolis-correct, so spin it counterclockwise on the north hemisphere, clockwise on the south hemisphere. What's the best way to autodetect the likely hemisphere of the user before he sets the option explicitly in his account?
19:37:12 <wob_jonas> I know I can autodetect the user's preferred language from the Accept-Language HTTP header, but I don't know if there's a HTTP header or some javascript query for the user's hemisphere.
19:37:54 <wob_jonas> I don't need his full geographical location, and I understand that that would be more personal information that most of my users would be willing to share.
19:49:40 <zzo38> Make up a HTTP header for it and then try to detect based on the IP address if nobody sends that header
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20:52:25 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I think your average web developer would use an existing geolocation system and then just round to hemisphere, plus provide a setting somewhere for overriding it for the inevitable misclassifications.
20:53:01 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I don't care what average web developers do.
20:56:27 <fizzie> One of the commercial IP-based geolocation service providers has a "lite" version under CC BY-SA, I know that much.
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21:21:05 <wob_jonas> Stupid top-posters repeating the whole email recursively rather than just the relevant bits. And the google mail interface actually encourages that stupid habit.
21:22:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: so does Outlook
21:22:25 <ais523> which I think is probably more or less singlehandedly responsible for encouraging that sort of posting style
21:23:17 <zzo38> I use Heirlom-Mailx myself, which also repeats the entire message but the reply message is on the bottom.
21:24:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: outlook doesn't encourage it as much as google mail. google mail actively hides quoted lines and sigs by default, both when composing a mail and when reading a mail, in the latter case agressively by looking up each line in the thread, which often has false positives.
21:25:14 <wob_jonas> I don't care if the reply is above or below the new content, that's mostly irrelevant.
21:25:35 <wob_jonas> Repeating the entire message is fine, because I like deleting stuff, so repeating everything and then deleting most of it is more fun than copying just some lines.
21:26:24 <wob_jonas> I mean, I even thought of an eso feature in a text editor where the only copy-paste feature is duplicating the whole contents of the buffer or appending a copy of a file to after a buffer, and then you just delete the range you don't need.
21:27:27 <wob_jonas> This would have to be supported by a feature where if you duplicate the buffer, the marks get corresponding marks created in the copy, and you can jump to either the original or the copy version of a mark easily as you wish.
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21:33:35 <zzo38> Does vim have the ability to copy marks from one buffer to another one? Does it have the ability to save marks to a file or load them from a file or pipe?
21:34:04 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not sure if it has a built-in command for doing that, but I think its scripting language is powerful enough that you could write a command to do that
21:34:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't really know. I don't know much about advanced vim.
21:34:43 <wob_jonas> There's a vim channel on freenode, you could try to ask there.
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22:21:38 <wob_jonas> Yay! I'm helping someone on the internet in something I know nothing about but could track down info with some internet searches. And it's a person who could help me in my previous stupid queries. The internet works!
22:26:13 <J_Arcane> http://vm01.unsoft.hu/~np/basic/latest/ptsvubas.cc
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23:14:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Charli9 * New user account
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23:19:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53111&oldid=53104 * Charli9 * (+181) Introduced myself
23:19:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53112&oldid=41876 * Charli9 * (+80) Added link to WIP compiler
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01:38:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/brainfcuk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53113&oldid=50025 * Elronnd * (+59) Updates.
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03:28:03 <zzo38> Why are some X events going missing when reading by SDL?
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03:51:16 <zzo38> Somehow it seems to be dropping events. Is it X or SDL that is doing that?
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04:04:50 <zzo38> I can try to fix it anyways though
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05:26:27 <zzo38> Adding a call to usleep() in the program that sends the X events seems to help, but I am not sure why.
05:26:44 <zzo38> (Even 1 microsecond seems to be sufficient)
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05:52:47 <shachaf> Maybe it causes a context switch?
05:56:03 <zzo38> Maybe; I don't know. The man page says "The sleep may be lengthened slightly by any system activity", and maybe it is related to that.
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07:11:20 <zzo38> There was another problem, but now I fixed that other problem too.
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07:54:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53114&oldid=53112 * Zzo38 * (+23) Correct a link to a disambiguation page
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09:37:21 <zzo38> I found the esolang wiki article about imaginary function
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09:49:21 * impomatic wonders what an imaginary function is
09:57:03 <zzo38> So far I don't know. But it look OK so far (assuming they are pure functions; otherwise I do not expect it work)
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13:33:57 <wob_jonas> I've been reading the copyright laws for Hungary, namely "http://net.jogtar.hu/jr/gen/hjegy_doc.cgi?docid=99900076.TV#pr215id" . This seems to explain why the legal terms in many of the free licenses are so long and complicated.
13:34:35 <ais523> assuming that link is in Hungarian, I'm unlikely to be able to understand it
13:34:46 <ais523> the copyright laws in the UK are pretty complex too, though :-(
13:35:06 <ais523> at least they're usually unambiguous, although they also tend to disallow things in situations where other legal systems are ambiguous
13:35:10 <wob_jonas> The law regulates such copyright-related licenses that transfer rights regulated by the copyright law. It says how certain settings are defaulted if they're not mentioned in a license.
13:35:52 <wob_jonas> And the defaults are almost always such that they are less permissive for the receiver.
13:36:23 <wob_jonas> In particular, it says that the license can be given only for particular uses on praticular media, and only for uses known at the time I give the license;
13:36:34 <ais523> "default-all-rights-reserved" is a license name I refer to often for a reason
13:37:28 <wob_jonas> that the time length of the license defaults to whatever is usual for that type of work (this shouldn't be a problem for software, which is usually permanently licensed, it's there for licencing book publishing rights towards publishers, but note that it also gives specific rules for specific types of works),
13:38:22 <wob_jonas> and most importantly, it says that the license defaults to giving right to distribute the work only within Hungary, which is a problem because a lot of licenses (including the Gnu GPL 2 and Gnu GPL 3) doesn't say "global" or "any country" or anything about the location.
13:38:52 <wob_jonas> The law seems serious about this, because it clarifies how the location works for television received directly from a satellite broadcast.
13:39:46 <wob_jonas> Also, this law is harmonized with international agreements, so the laws in other countries are probably similar, regardless all the crazy stuff the US does, some of which might actually contradict those international agreements they've supposedly agreed to.
13:40:16 <wob_jonas> So I don't think Hungary is the only place where this is a problem.
13:41:47 <wob_jonas> I'm now trying to read stuff written by the FSF and the WMF Hungary (they have a form letter for asking permission for use from people who aren't familiar with Wikimedia projects, and it does mention some terms explicitly with the assumption that people don't actually read what the mentioned Creative Commons BY SA license says, but it doesn't say "
13:42:07 <wob_jonas> (The CC BY SA license does say "global" by the way. It doesn't say for how long.)
13:42:48 <wob_jonas> I'll look at the FSF's FAQ, and the fsf.hu wobsite, because they actually have lawyers paid, and might try to ask for a clarification from them in email if the FAQ doesn't answer me.
13:44:07 <wob_jonas> I don't like the Gnu GPL, but it's still relevant for software already licensed under it, and, like I said, other copyright license agreements seem to be similar. The X11 license also doesn't mention a location or countries.
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13:44:32 <ais523> so what's the specific situation which violates the spirit of the GPL? person A writes some GPLed code, person B (who is Hungarian) makes a modified copy and licenses it to person C (who is also Hungarian), person C makes another modified copy, but can't send it to non-Hungarians because it would violate B's license?
13:44:38 <ais523> is that the simplest situation which causes a problem?
13:44:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know yet. I'm trying to read up on this.
13:46:39 <wob_jonas> The simplest situation is probably when I send hu.Wikipedia's form letter in Hungarian to ask permission from someone to allow their work of art to be distributed under the CC BY SA license, they agree to that form letter without reading the long legal terms of the CC BY SA license, and then I, in Hungary, distribute that work of art to people outs
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13:48:16 <ais523> is this a situation where it matters whether it's CC-by-sa or CC-by-sa-unported?
13:48:22 <wob_jonas> But all of this is regulated by a hundred other related laws, and I'm not a lawyer, and don't know anything about this anyway.
13:48:23 <ais523> it normally doesn't, but this strikes me as being potentially relevant
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13:49:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: when someone choses the non-default license, it's easier to assume that they've read the legal terms, rather than just the form letter and the lay summary, so they'll know that the CC licenses do explicitly say it's a "global" license to distribute etc.
13:51:08 <wob_jonas> Eg. I've distributed stuff under CC BY (the non-sharealike license), and have written arguments that something is public domain under the US copyright law because it was published before 1923 and so can be distributed on Commons. So I probably couldn't claim that I thought the CC BY license gave only permission in Hungary.
13:51:41 <wob_jonas> Note that the damned CC hides their legal terms on a separate page from their lay summary.
13:52:28 <ais523> they want people to at least read the summary, I guess
13:53:10 <wob_jonas> What the CC license doesn't claim anywhere is that it doesn't expire.
13:53:17 <wob_jonas> The GNU license does say that it's permanent.
13:54:13 <wob_jonas> Both say that they're not arbitrarily revokable.
13:55:15 <wob_jonas> I'll also have to read what the Boost license FAQ says, because they also claim a lawyer was involved.
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14:03:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, do you recall that discussion on wikimedia projects about the lack of freedom of panorama in Sweden, which got to a courts decision, and people complained about the strange law that sometimes gives you the right to use something commercially but not to use it non-commercially?
14:06:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: I can't find the details about that right now, sadly
14:08:36 <wob_jonas> anyway, it turns out the copyright law of Hungary I linked also has one specific clause that smells like that, about using works of fine art (Mona Lisa) as set in television freely without attribution, unless that work of art is specifically intended to be used as a stage set or stage costume.
14:08:50 <wob_jonas> (ok, not Mona Lisa, the copyright term of that one expired)
14:12:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: I also wonder about the musical fountain in Margitsziget. It's playing recorded music from loudspeakers, automatically shoots jets of water with a coreography matching the music, and, after dusk, lights the water jets with colorful lights also according to a coreography.
14:13:05 <ais523> "choreography" is one of those words which has a silent h for no apparent reason
14:13:07 <ais523> English is weird sometimes
14:13:08 <wob_jonas> It seems to me like it's "permanently exhibited" because half of the songs it's playing now it's been playing for over five years multiple times a day.
14:14:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think that's no apparent reason. That's a CH from latin from a greek chi, which is usually pronounced as a /k/ at the start of a word. Same as chemistry and chronometer and christianity. My big dictionary confirms it comes from a greek word, cognate with chorus.
14:15:51 <ais523> yep, I'm guessing it's for the same reason as chorus
14:16:13 <ais523> even so, though, we pronounce it more like kappa than chi
14:16:37 <wob_jonas> Anyway, I wonder what the freedom of panorama exception in the law says about videos of that musical fountain. That seems to depend on two things: (a) what does "panorama" mean, and (b) is the fountain covered by "a work of fine art, architecture or applied art".
14:18:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, I don't know about other people, but I personally never studied russian or german or greek or latin, and as a result I don't pronounce hard h properly in any word, I always just use either a "k" (at the start of words) or a "h" (inside words) regardless the source language. So I don't know what "more like a kappa than a chi" means.
14:18:39 <wob_jonas> There was something about these greek origin words I wanted to find out. I should try to get back to that later.
14:20:23 <wob_jonas> Not the greek words themselves, but how we use them now.
14:25:12 <wob_jonas> Oh, also. Now I understand why libraries put limitations on photocopying or photographing their books for personal only non-commercial use.
14:26:11 <wob_jonas> The law actually says that I'm allowed (with certain conditions) to make copies of parts of books for personal use, but also that even then I'm not allowed to copy an *entire* book even that way except by typewriter or handwriting.
14:27:55 <wob_jonas> (It still seems I am still allowed to copy entire books when their copyright protection has expired.)
14:28:58 <wob_jonas> (That's good to know, because I've distributed an entire out-of-copyright book a month ago.)
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14:41:54 <wob_jonas> Also, this copyright law is the one that permits the government to put a tax on empty CD/DVD disks and photocopier machines.
14:43:07 <wob_jonas> And tells how the income of that law is to be used.
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15:17:46 <HackEgo> white chocolate? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:19:20 <HackEgo> Mario is a classic PSPACE-complete problem invented by Nintendo.
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16:12:49 <rdococ> Have any languages implemented scopes as ordinary objects?
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16:44:23 <zzo38> In Canada is also the law that the government puts the tax on blank CDs, but in Canada, this law does not apply to DVDs.
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16:54:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53115&oldid=53108 * Zseri * (+185) +infobox
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17:15:33 <zzo38> rdococ: I don't know, but maybe can you give an example of how you might mean?
17:15:58 <zzo38> I can think of one way it might be done at least
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17:21:11 <zzo38> You might be able to try something similar in JavaScript by use of eval, maybe
17:21:27 <rdococ> zzo38: a Scope object would consist of an associative array and a reference to its parent scope
17:22:01 <zzo38> In JavaScript objects do have prototypes, so you do have objects like that.
17:23:15 <rdococ> To get a variable from the current scope, the interpreter/compiler/whatever would determine if the associative array has the variable name as a key. If so, the value of the variable would be returned. Otherwise, it would check the scope's parent.
17:23:43 <rdococ> well, the value of the entry
17:24:04 <zzo38> (You can even easily to have a global variable and then enter and exit the scopes, by using scope=Object.create(scope) to enter a new scope and scope=Object.getPrototypeOf(scope) to exit a scope; this works though more like the scopes in TeX rather than in JavaScript and other programming languages, but I did use it in a program I am writing to keep track of the types in a scope)
17:26:45 <zzo38> (You could though, for example, define a new variable inside of the scope by scope.x=[42]; and then to change its value to write scope.x[0]=43; and so on, if the variable's value is shared with the parent scope.)
17:32:46 <rdococ> if I decide to add OOP features to my concept, I will probably do something like that
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18:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53116&oldid=48993 * Oerjan * (+0) /* bleet commands */ Reference implementation does it the other way around
18:44:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sobsz * New user account
18:47:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53117&oldid=53111 * Sobsz * (+380)
18:53:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Qwerty Reverse Polish Notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53118&oldid=40946 * Sobsz * (-3) It literally says it's Turing-complete in the second frickin' paragraph
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18:56:42 <zzo38> The built-in editor for this game http://zzo38computer.org/prog/pcpuzzleboy.zip does not work properly on DOSBOX (although I believe I found the mistake, but I don't know why it works fine on a pure DOS computer then!)
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19:04:13 <zzo38> (The DOS computer I have tested it on has MS-DOS version 7)
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21:18:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53119&oldid=53102 * CANICVS * (-8)
21:19:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53120&oldid=53119 * CANICVS * (+52)
21:20:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53121&oldid=53120 * CANICVS * (-38)
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22:11:02 <wob_jonas> fungot, why were the logs on tunes.org down at some earlier time today?
22:11:03 <fungot> wob_jonas: oh, but i was never going to.
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22:14:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53122&oldid=53121 * CANICVS * (+0)
22:18:22 <int-e> fungot is being ominous
22:34:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53123&oldid=53122 * CANICVS * (+195)
22:40:22 <shachaf> fungot: stop being ominous, you're just a bot
22:40:22 <fungot> shachaf: all that means is that if a building? has the warm embrace of satisfaction become the smothering the person with a large number of strangers to say it, but reality sucks sometimes. i have no idea!
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23:19:14 <wob_jonas> Are the logs on tunes behind the channel by days?
23:19:24 <wob_jonas> Or at least by half a day or something?
23:20:10 <Capaverde> I might have made some progress on brainfuarrrk
23:22:03 <Capaverde> https://github.com/Capaverde/brainfuarrrrk/blob/master/arithmos
23:22:33 <wob_jonas> What's a brainfuarrrrk and do I want to know?
23:23:08 <Capaverde> wob_jonas: an extensible brainfuck of sorts
23:24:24 <wob_jonas> I mean, I don't like those either, but for a moment I thought it was a brainfuck equivalent intended to be spoken by wookies or something like that. That was funny the first time, with Ook!, but we now have like three or four such languages and it's getting quite stupid.
23:24:44 <wob_jonas> An extension can at least be good, even if most of them aren't.
23:25:28 <Capaverde> it's not a direct extension, but it is extensible
23:27:28 <wob_jonas> I mean, I much prefer languages that stay away as far from brainfuck as possible, but still.
23:29:34 <wob_jonas> I have a language planned that has underload's simplicity. I prefer that.
23:29:52 <wob_jonas> It might even turn out to be simpler than underload.
23:34:42 <Capaverde> and everything is macros and there's no state
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23:36:59 <Capaverde> (I said this because I looked up underload and it said it is stack-based and has an eval operator)
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23:38:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: I read GNU's license FAQ and Boost's as well. They don't say anything about the worldwide clause I asked about earlier.
23:38:34 <wob_jonas> I wrote a mail to GNU. I'll have to look at the Wikimedia permission form letter later.
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23:41:55 <wob_jonas> IMO the GNU case is not very relevant in practice, because the kind of people who choose to distribute works under GPL won't try to abuse the license to distribute it only within a country.
23:42:14 <wob_jonas> The Wikimedia permission form letter is actually more relevant, but it's less clear who I should ask about it.
23:47:48 <wob_jonas> Also, I just bragged that the esoteric language I'm planning to make would have the simplicity of underload, but I'm not really sure if it really would.
23:48:35 <ais523> there's more than one way to define simplicity
23:48:55 <ais523> e.g. is SKI combinator calculus simpler or more complex than SK combinator calculus?
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23:49:09 <wob_jonas> Implementing that language requires an associative array, and even the simplest decent implementation of an associative array I know is somewhat complicated, even without supporting deletion.
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23:49:26 <wob_jonas> (I don't have to support deletion. I can, but it's just an optimization that's irrelevant for most programs.)
23:53:04 <ais523> IMO associative arrays are a fundamental data structure, and just because asm doesn't support them easily, doesn't mean that they should be considered less fundamental than, say, indexed arrays
23:53:16 <ais523> actually they're very easy to implement if you don't care about efficiency
23:53:45 <wob_jonas> sure, but I do care about efficiency
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23:53:58 <shachaf> "associative array" is such an awful name
23:54:41 <ais523> > let put k v a = \k2.(if k=k2 then v else a k2) in (put 1 red $ put 2 blue $ put 3 green $ undefined) 2
23:54:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20: error: parse error on input ‘.’
23:54:49 <ais523> > let put k v a = \k2 -> (if k=k2 then v else a k2) in (put 1 red $ put 2 blue $ put 3 green $ undefined) 2
23:54:52 <lambdabot> Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block?
23:54:54 <wob_jonas> because it matters to me how efficient you can implement programs in the esolang, and if the impl of the language uses a linear search implementation, that ruins the parts I care about.
23:55:01 <ais523> > let put k v a = \k2 -> (if k==k2 then v else a k2) in (put 1 red $ put 2 blue $ put 3 green $ undefined) 2
23:55:16 <ais523> > let put k v a = \k2 -> (if k==k2 then v else a k2) in (put 1 "red" $ put 2 "blue" $ put 3 "green" $ undefined) 2
23:55:35 <ais523> when you haven't used functional languages for a while they all tend to blur together
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23:56:47 <shachaf> You can write an OK hash table implementation in a few lines of code probably
23:56:55 <wob_jonas> If you implement underload properly, then you can translaste any non-parallel program to lambda calculus first and then to underload and the runtime will grow only to O(t**(1+epsilon)) compared to the runtime t of the original.
23:57:16 <shachaf> I don't know any simple efficient ordered key-value data structure
23:57:32 <wob_jonas> shachaf: even if the keys are strings that can ideally be as long as fits in the memory, but definitely at least 255 bytes long should be allowed?
23:57:41 <wob_jonas> you don't need ordered for this language
23:57:48 <ais523> wob_jonas: my point is that this sort of data structure (shall we call it a "map"?) is very easy to write if you don't care about efficiency, meaning that it's conceptually simple, and theoretically the performacne coudl be fixed by a compiler
23:57:59 <wob_jonas> I know a somewhat simple ordered one, but it's still not simple enough
23:58:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but if I only want conceptually simple, then I can just use brainfuck
23:58:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: map works, but dictionary is better IMO
23:59:03 <wob_jonas> I should have said dictionary, rather than associative array
23:59:26 <wob_jonas> I will write my own implementation for the reference interpreter of the language.
23:59:36 <ais523> it's basically just a function that's a) defined in terms of its I/O behaviour, and b) can have that behaviour changed at runtime
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00:00:17 <shachaf> Some map data structures support iteration
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00:01:08 <wob_jonas> This is partly for eso reasons, because I'll use a somewhat eso dictionary structure, one that's slower than typical implementations although still much faster than linear scans;
00:01:30 <wob_jonas> and partly because I want to write the reference interpreter in portable C, and there's basically no portable implementation of dictionaries with a C interface.
00:02:41 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no. I mean not in any library I know of, if you want an implementation that's both portable and its interface isn't restricted to unusable.
00:03:09 <wob_jonas> Um, and of decent performance. I don't count using the file system as a dictionary from filenames.
00:03:24 <shachaf> What are the keys and values?
00:03:39 <shachaf> I'm typing on my phone right now, haven't even seen the beginning of the conversation
00:04:08 <ais523> I don't think it was stated yet
00:04:53 <wob_jonas> The keys are strings with characters from a limited character set of around 70 characters or so, of ideally arbitrary length, but definitely at least as long that you shouldn't store them in fixed length arrays;
00:05:24 <wob_jonas> the values don't matter much, let's say they're indexes into an array in the interpreter's memory.
00:05:46 <wob_jonas> You can always just use indexes as values like that for any dictionary, and store the real values indirectly.
00:06:33 <wob_jonas> And it happens to be convenient for this language because there'll be a lot of repeated values, and in many programs some of them will be longer than an index.
00:09:48 <shachaf> Oh, maybe that doesn't help you.
00:12:32 <wob_jonas> Oh, I should look in Knuth's free software (TeX, Metafont, MMIXware, Standford Graph Base). Maybe they have a suitable implementation.
00:12:49 <shachaf> Oh, hsearch, that's the one I was thinking of.
00:13:30 <shachaf> "First a hash table must be created using hcreate(). The argument nel specifies the maximum number of entries in the table. (This maximum cannot be changed later, so choose it wisely.)"
00:14:06 <shachaf> This is a pretty scow library.
00:15:11 <wob_jonas> I looked at the search tree functions in GNU libc, which may overlap with this. I found that they had a really bad interface, one that seriously limits how you can use them. I thought they were specific to GNU libc though, and GNU libc is very non-portable.
00:15:43 <lambdabot> https://gist.github.com/tonious/1377667
00:15:57 <wob_jonas> (As in, it runs on Linux and Hurd, and needs a wizard to compile it, despite that the GNU GPL explicitly forbids distributing a program in a state where ordinary people can't compile it.)
00:16:09 <shachaf> Just use something like that.
00:19:21 <wob_jonas> The POSIX search.h functions, both the hash and the tree ones, are limited to one hash table or tree in the entire program, and don't allow ordered access (lower_bound). That would technically still allow implementing my language, but I dislike that on principle.
00:19:56 <shachaf> They're awful, ignore whatever I said about them.
00:20:07 <wob_jonas> Also it requires a global comparison function with no cookie argument, like qsort.
00:20:58 <wob_jonas> Older versions of gcc might have an implementation I can steal.
00:22:03 <shachaf> I thought you were looking for a simple implementation.
00:22:51 <wob_jonas> But then if it's something in an already well-known software, then I could sort of count it as simple in the same way as just using malloc or some other widely used library function as simple.
00:23:07 <shachaf> What's the interface you need?
00:24:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: Perl has hash tables as a primitive
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00:26:44 <wob_jonas> I need one dictionary per interpreter (and one interpreter per process in the reference interpreter), initializing it as empty or some other known state, looking up a string key with a fatal error if it's not present, or inserting a pair in such a way that if it's a new key, the key is copied to a permanent storage array and the tree will reference
00:27:22 <wob_jonas> That is, I don't want to keep a new copy of the key in memory forever each time I overwrite the pair for it in the tree.
00:28:40 <wob_jonas> Both lookup an insert/overwrite shall be fast. I don't need ordered lookup or iteration.
00:29:55 <wob_jonas> Ideally I'd like an interface that easily allows to have multiple instances per process, so that someone can modify the reference interpreter to multiple instances per process, in which case I also need deallocation of the whole dictionary.
00:30:27 <wob_jonas> Delete would be a nice extra, but I don't insist on it, because I know it complicates implementations a lot.
00:30:49 <wob_jonas> And if you actually want to use delete, then you also need a malloc to store the keys and be able to free them.
00:31:26 <wob_jonas> Otherwise you'll have two copies of the key in memory when the key gets recreated after deletion.
00:31:39 <wob_jonas> That would be worse than just not deleting anything.
00:33:07 <wob_jonas> A malloc/free system is, in theory, on the same order of magnitude to implement efficiently as a dictionary. The main difference is that malloc is available in C, so everyone has it.
00:33:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, I know perl has one, and so does almost every modern programming language.
00:33:58 <ais523> some languages, e.g. OCaml, do it via the standard library rather than as a primitive
00:34:26 <shachaf> Is Perl's primitive a hash table or a dictionary?
00:34:33 <wob_jonas> shachaf: "<b_jonas> I will write my own implementation for the reference interpreter of the language. / This is partly for eso reasons, because I'll use a somewhat eso dictionary structure, one that's slower than typical implementations although still much faster than linear scans;
00:35:08 <wob_jonas> ... / and partly because I want to write the reference interpreter in portable C, and there's basically no portable implementation of dictionaries with a C interface."
00:35:45 <wob_jonas> and yes, it's in the standard library for most languages where that distinction is important.
00:35:48 <shachaf> Not being ordered doesn't mean it's a hash table.
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00:36:13 <wob_jonas> Ruby has has tables as a primitive, python has them and I think they're a primitive,
00:36:21 <wob_jonas> C++ and rust has them in the standard library.
00:36:30 <wob_jonas> C++ and rust have ordered versions.
00:36:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53124&oldid=52212 * Get52 * (+1) github changed
00:36:46 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but I also know perl implements it as a hash table
00:37:06 <wob_jonas> and they're not even trying to change that, they're just disputing what the Right**TM hash function is to use
00:38:30 <wob_jonas> The perl and rust devs are both worried that a hash table can have security problems because in programs that use untrusted data as keys, the people providing that untrusted data can make a denial of service attack by making the hash table perform badly;
00:38:54 <wob_jonas> but they're both trying to solve it by making a hashing function that's both fast and secure, which I think is theoretically impossible,
00:39:26 <ais523> wob_jonas: what's wrong with siphash?
00:39:49 <wob_jonas> because the cryptography guys have done serious research about how fast you can make a digest that is probably cryptographically secure, and it's still slower than anything the perl and rust guys are trying, and
00:40:16 <wob_jonas> I think a cryptographically secure hash function (with the key never revealed) is the only way to guarantee no suboptimal performance.
00:40:36 <ais523> wob_jonas: there's more than one way to be cryptographically secure
00:40:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, and I have no proof and don't know cryptography, so this is just my conjecture
00:41:41 <ais523> siphash is meant to be cryptosecure when used as a MAC (which is the security guarantee you need for a hash table) but not for other uses of a cryptohash
00:42:08 <wob_jonas> I personally think people should just use balanced trees or something like that with performance guaranteed by deterministic bounds for almost every cases when this consideration is relevant, except perhaps in some cases in operating system kernels.
00:42:26 <ais523> (basically, the security property it's claimed to have is that you can't choose X and Y so that siphash(k, X) == siphash(k, Y) unless you know k)
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00:43:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: you can't even chose them that way if you get feedback of the order of hashes of any number of keys you construct?
00:43:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, this gets ugly because even that is probably only enough if separate secret keys are used for each hash
00:44:03 <ais523> wob_jonas: the property's actually slightly stronger; it says that you can't choose X and Y so that siphash(k, X) == siphash(k, Y) unless you know k, even if you know siphash(k, Z) for arbitrary Z
00:44:11 <wob_jonas> otherwise the attacker can experiment on one hash to make another hash behave badly later
00:44:25 <ais523> so the idea is that you choose k randomly per program
00:44:32 <wob_jonas> by just using the same keys in the order they're in the first hash
00:44:47 <ais523> hash tables only break upon hash /collisions/
00:44:54 <ais523> merely inserting elements in hash order doesn't break must hashing algorithjms
00:46:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but when you have hashes of multiple sizes, then the smaller hashes use shorter hash keys that are made from the longer hash keys in simple ways that allow the attacker to make collisions in the smaller has by learning about the keys in the longer hash
00:47:01 <wob_jonas> As in, if the key for the shorter hash is the upper bits of the keys of the longer hash, then keys close to each other in the large hash will often collide in the large hash,
00:47:20 <wob_jonas> but other simple methods of creating shorter hash indexes have similar problems.
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00:48:07 <wob_jonas> If I understand correctly, in some cases the devs defend from this by using entirely new random salts for each hash table, and each time they resize a hash table too.
00:48:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: but now you're adding 2**n elements to the large hash so that you can get n**2 performance adding them to the small hash
00:48:40 <ais523> you could just add 2**n elements to the small hash instead…
00:48:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, I don't think so. you're adding O(n) elements to one hash to add n elements to a second hash and get O(n) collisions
00:49:51 <wob_jonas> There might be some other way to defend from this attack that I don't know about though
00:50:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: actually, we're both wrong, you're adding O(n) elements to the hash, but only O(sqrt(n)) will have clashing top bits
00:50:16 <ais523> so the second hash has O(sqrt(n)**2) = O(n) performance
00:51:14 <wob_jonas> I'm not convinced, but that sounds more likely than exponential
00:52:35 <wob_jonas> An attacker can already force O(sqrt(n)) performance with just one hash after all, under some reasonable conditions.
00:53:40 <wob_jonas> Dunno. If you say this SIPhash solution could really work, then I should do more reading up on this,
00:54:37 <wob_jonas> because that would be interesting for me to know, even if I just want to avoid the original problem by using either separate passes of sorting and binary search, or a balanced tree or similar dictionary when I can't do that.
00:55:15 <wob_jonas> This because the cryptographical properties you say SIP provides might be useful for other problems,
00:55:28 <wob_jonas> or they might not, I don't know, that's why I'll have to read up about it.
00:56:35 <wob_jonas> There's a particular problem I have in mind that I can so far only solve with similar strong crypto stuff like good message digests, but might have a faster solution under some conditions.
00:56:59 <wob_jonas> I don't think a balanced tree helps there.
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01:03:24 <wob_jonas> Here's the problem. My server communicates with multiple parties that I don't trust and that don't trust each other. When any party asks, I must give them a new unique ID token.
01:04:35 <ais523> that doesn't seem so bad so far
01:05:06 <wob_jonas> Nobody shall be able to guess that ID unless I or that party transitively gives information about the ID to them. But also, nobody should be able to examine the tokens to learn about how many tokens I've generated in any time interval, or when any token they see was generated, except that I've generated at least as many tokens so far as they've see
01:05:06 <wob_jonas> n, and at least as many in an interval as they asked for.
01:05:50 <wob_jonas> The parties may learn about some of this from timing attacks, which seems very expensive to avoid, but they shouldn't learn such information directly from examining any number of tokens.
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01:06:23 <wob_jonas> One solution for this is to use 256 bit long cryptographically secure uniform random strings as tokens.
01:07:09 <wob_jonas> There are well-tested libraries for doing that, and it's essentially as hard as computing one or two 256 bit long message digests.
01:07:26 <wob_jonas> I don't think there's a solution for this involving just sequence numbers and no cryptographic operations.
01:08:43 <wob_jonas> There might or might not be crypto solutions that are easier than a HMAC, and this is what I should find out.
01:09:05 <wob_jonas> Or faster than a HMAC, or even faster than a message digest, like as fast as a SIP hash or two.
01:10:48 <ais523> right, you're basically just trying to generate random numbers, but have weaker security requirements
01:10:55 <ais523> so are hoping that you might have something faster than a CSPRNG?
01:11:27 <wob_jonas> I don't know what to think. I thought there isn't anything faster than that, but after what you said about SIP hash, I'll have to reexamine that assumption.
01:12:12 <wob_jonas> I'm also somewhat fuzzy about where there seem to be two essentially different requirements called cryptographically secure PRNG,
01:12:48 <wob_jonas> one of which seems to require as many non-pseudo hardware random entropy as bits output, and one that uses much fewer bits than that.
01:13:05 <ais523> the full CSPRNG requirements are that a) you can't predict any future outputs or any internal state given all past outputs, b) you can't predict any past outputs given the internal state
01:13:20 <ais523> several applications that would typically use a CSPRNG don't actually care about b)
01:13:22 <wob_jonas> I have the impression that the first kind is recommended for generating keys for public key cryptography, but I don't understand why there's a distinction in first place.
01:13:33 <ais523> e.g. NH4's RNG is intended to obey a) but definitely does not obey b)
01:16:12 <wob_jonas> And if you want (a) and (b), then you want as much incoming entropy as outgoing; but when you want only (a), then you don't need that?
01:16:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: this is more to do with security levels
01:17:00 <ais523> say you have a CSPRNG with a 256-bit internal state, you can't then get more than 256 bits of security on keys generated from it
01:17:03 <wob_jonas> I also don't understand why some crypto libraries only seem to provide the first kind of CSPRNG but not the second, despite that the first kind is slow on many hardware in most cases.
01:17:12 <ais523> because you could just brute-force the CSPRNG itself rather than the resulting key
01:19:07 <wob_jonas> Yes, but for currently used public key cryptography, such as RSA, the public key itself is much longer than the entropy you need, because you can factor numbers much faster than with brute force, right? So if you generate a 1024 bit key with 256 bit entropy, then the fastest way to factor your key is faster than brute forcing 256 bits of seeds.
01:19:40 <wob_jonas> Or is the difference important only for generating more random output than just a single public key?
01:20:04 <wob_jonas> Like, generating several Diffie-Hellman keys?
01:20:14 <ais523> well, certainly you don't want to generate so many keys on the same seed that brute-forcing the seed is faster than individually factoring the keys
01:20:29 <wob_jonas> Or even for generating multiple symmetric crypto keys.
01:21:01 <shachaf> Is there any reason to use RSA nowadays?
01:21:05 <wob_jonas> Generating lots of symmetric crypto keys comes up a lot with public key cryptography, do you need the stronger guarantee for that?
01:21:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think this applies not only to RSA, but also for most other public key schemes used nowadays
01:24:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: so is the weaker CSPRNG guarantee enough for the unique ID problem I asked?
01:24:58 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'd think so
01:24:59 <wob_jonas> And does a proper implementation of the weaker CSPRNG need two or just one calls to a digest? I guess I can find that out by reading the source code of tomcrypt
01:25:10 <ais523> at least, I'd be surprised if a security audit told you off for using /dev/urandom there
01:25:15 <ais523> however, I'm not a crypto expert
01:25:18 <ais523> so I may be wrong about all this
01:25:58 <wob_jonas> I'll leave soon because it's late.
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01:33:35 <shachaf> I wrote a hash table implementation without delete support. Seems pretty straightforward.
01:34:00 <shachaf> I guess I'd never implemented it before because I don't like hash tables that much.
01:35:45 <oerjan> . o O ( did you make a hash of it )
01:36:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but it still makes the implementation longer
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01:37:54 <oerjan> eep, tunes was away for nearly a day
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01:50:32 <shachaf> What tricks are there for implementing key-value maps efficiently other than ordering and hashing?
01:51:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I know one trick that requires ordering but not anything that looks like a tree, and I'll try to use that in my reference implementation.
01:51:24 <shachaf> I guess a prefix tree is another popular one.
01:51:26 <wob_jonas> I don't recommend it for most non-eso purposes though.
01:51:43 <wob_jonas> A prefix tree still counts as ordering.
01:51:58 <shachaf> I would say that an array that you binary search still looks like a tree
01:52:13 <wob_jonas> Oh, in that case this still looks like a tree.
01:52:19 <shachaf> No, prefix structure is more than order structure
01:52:42 <shachaf> A < function isn't sufficient to implement a prefix tree
01:52:59 <shachaf> Also using prefix trees you can sort in linear time?
01:53:20 <wob_jonas> It's more than order structure, sure, but then a balanced tree or a treap or a self-balancing tree is also more than order structure I think.
01:53:32 <imode> is there any cellular automata software that allows arbitrary spaces? as in, CAs on arbitrary graphs or implicit spaces or.. something.
01:53:41 <shachaf> I'm talking about the structure of the keys themselves
01:54:26 <wob_jonas> shachaf: my trick (and I have invented this independetly but I think it's known) is to use a set of sorted arrays of key-value pairs with power of two size, no two of the same size.
01:54:47 <ais523> shachaf: prefix trees are basically an optimized version of radix sort
01:54:52 <wob_jonas> to find an element, find it in each array, which takes O(log**2 n) time
01:55:00 <ais523> so they're O(n) if you have a fixed number of possible keys
01:55:27 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Oh, sure, that's a good trick
01:55:38 <wob_jonas> to insert an element, add a length 1 array, then while there are two arrays of the same size, merge those two arrays to an array twice the size, keeping duplicate keys but keeping track of which one is newest
01:55:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: that's basically a trie, isn't it?
01:55:52 <shachaf> Though you can do it more generally than powers of two, and sometimes there are benefits to other counting systems
01:56:05 <shachaf> For example skew binary works well
01:56:36 <wob_jonas> this takes amortized O(log**2 n) time
01:56:38 <shachaf> It's also the rough idea behind databases like Bigtable?
01:56:49 <wob_jonas> to insert an element, add a length 1 array, then while there are two arrays of the same size, merge those two arrays to an array twice the size, keeping duplicate keys but keeping track of which one is newest.
01:57:03 <wob_jonas> this also helps remove an element.
01:57:47 <shachaf> I'm typing on my phone so I can't type very quickly
01:58:00 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'm not sure. I know this method also lets you keep snapshots of older versions of the dictionary cheaply, which I think Bigtable or some such db promises, but there are other ways to provide that, and I don't know how they actually implement it.
01:58:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think it's similar to a trie.
01:58:29 <ais523> ah right, no, I misunderstood how it works
01:58:35 <ais523> it's more like a skiplist, but not the same
01:58:44 <wob_jonas> Yes, skiplists are very similar and more popular.
01:59:08 <wob_jonas> Iirc skiplists differ in that they need randomness.
01:59:25 <ais523> isn't this faster at accessing more recently added data? that might be a useful property in some cases
01:59:28 <wob_jonas> Unlike a trie, this structure only needs key comparisons,.
01:59:36 <shachaf> I can't remember what this data structure is called
01:59:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't know any name for it either
02:00:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: theoretically yes, but it's so slow in general even for accessing recently added data that if you want that, you'll still use balanced tree or self-balancing tree structures
02:01:01 <wob_jonas> also, this structure can be deamortized, which you need to make persistent snapshots actually, but that makes the implementation more complicated
02:01:27 <wob_jonas> deamortized as in making a version that guarantees non-amortized deterministic upper bound on insertion time
02:02:50 <wob_jonas> and I think it can be deamortized while still being O(log**2 n) time, as opposed to O(log**3 n) which you might think if you just know that an array can be deamortized to a complete binary tree with log speed loss
02:04:49 <shachaf> wob_jonas: How about "cache oblivious lookahead arrays", or "fractal trees"?
02:05:05 <wob_jonas> I haven't even seen a good reference for this data structure, even one that doesn't give it a nice name. In particular, I don't think it's in the current TAOCP, nor in the Chris Okasaki persistent data structures book, nor in anywhere else.\
02:05:16 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I've no idea what those are
02:05:30 <shachaf> I'd look them up but it's very annoying in my
02:05:57 <shachaf> Is that the thing you're describing?
02:06:17 <wob_jonas> shachaf: anyway, deamortizing is easy, just do the merges with the steps delayed compared to one another just fast enough that each merge result is ready by the time you have to merge that one with a new array
02:06:34 <wob_jonas> in each step, do a constant number of merge steps at each level
02:06:53 <wob_jonas> or you can do a constant number of merge steps total
02:07:39 <wob_jonas> The bad part of this structure is that lookup still guarantees only O(log**2 n) but Omega(log n) time,
02:08:16 <wob_jonas> and I don't think you can fix that without turning it into some other structure in disguise with extra unnecessary complications added.
02:08:26 <shachaf> See these slides for example http://ekmett.github.io/presentations/Cache-Oblivious%20Data%20Structures.pdf
02:09:11 <shachaf> I don't like how skip lists are randomized
02:09:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it's too late for me to try to read that now, but thanks for the reference, if I don't get back to it, feel free to point it out again
02:09:52 <shachaf> @tell wob_jonas See these slides for example http://ekmett.github.io/presentations/Cache-Oblivious%20Data%20Structures.pdf
02:10:05 <shachaf> Whoops, are you on the list?
02:10:18 <wob_jonas> that won't work, it will ping me when I type the next line, such as this one
02:10:18 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia myname int-e
02:10:44 <shachaf> Next time someone else sends you a message
02:11:34 <wob_jonas> I needn't have typed that line though. Good night.
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02:52:10 <zzo38> I have written hash table codes that are without deletions
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03:58:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainflub]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53125 * Snorepion * (+2550) Created page with "'''Brainflub''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Snorepion|Snorepion]]. While its documentation is written jokingly, it isn't as much of a joke as some ot..."
03:58:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Snorepion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53126 * Snorepion * (+17) Created page with "I hate red links."
03:59:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Snorepion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53127 * Snorepion * (+13) Created page with "==Talk here=="
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05:33:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you written hash table codes that are with deletions?
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06:17:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53128&oldid=46400 * Quintopia * (-3)
06:22:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53129&oldid=53128 * Quintopia * (-49) That is a wasteful way to do natural log.
06:24:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53130&oldid=53129 * Quintopia * (+21) /* Real Part and Imaginary Part */
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06:28:50 <lambdabot> shachaf said 4d 4h 41m 52s ago: I downgraded oerjan to twice punned, because he did notice the pun.
06:29:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53131&oldid=53130 * Quintopia * (+29) /* Trigonometry */
06:38:32 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/7rmTFxyjSpk
06:52:32 <lambdabot> PAMR 250453Z 19010G16KT 10SM BKN060 10/06 A2963 RMK AO2 SLP035 T01000061 $
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07:05:18 <lambdabot> ETAR 250556Z 11003KT 0600 R27/0500V0900 FG VV002 07/07 A3014 RMK AO2A CIG 001 RWY08 SLP214 T00700070 10070 20032 53000 $
07:05:46 <HackEgo> Ramstein Ab (RMS, ETAR) \ Queretaro Intercontinental (QRO, MMQT) \ Seletar (XSP, WSSL)
07:06:27 <HackEgo> bin/airport \ bin/airport-lookup
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07:07:04 <oerjan> `` grep share airport-lookup
07:07:05 <HackEgo> grep: airport-lookup: No such file or directory
07:07:13 <oerjan> `` grep share bin/airport-lookup
07:07:14 <HackEgo> with open('share/airports.dat', 'rb') as datafile:
07:07:34 <oerjan> `` grep ETAR share/airports.dat
07:07:35 <HackEgo> 751,"Ramstein Ab","Ramstein","Germany","RMS","ETAR",49.436911,7.600283,776,1,"E","Europe/Berlin"
07:09:02 <oerjan> the most metal metar, obviously
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07:18:51 <lambdabot> CYUL 250600Z 22004KT 15SM FEW030 23/21 A3004 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP172 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
07:19:04 <boily> 23/21. the humidity.
07:19:51 <oerjan> itym "oh the humidity" hth
07:21:06 <boily> time to do some circadian realignment.
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09:26:01 <wob_jonas> Some corrections about the dictionary data structure I talked about yesterday.
09:26:59 <wob_jonas> Firstly, about persistence. If you just want to keep snapshots of some or all earlier states of the dictionary, then use the original version. Don't deamortize it the way I suggested, because deamortizing just makes it harder to use persistently, because the deamortized version needs in-place writable arrays, the ordinary version does'nt.
09:28:28 <wob_jonas> This is enough if eg. you want to store all states of a nethack game in such a way that you can play it back (not that I recommend using this structure in practice).
09:29:12 <wob_jonas> If you need a persistent data structure that you can revert (or even fork), then this gets ugly, and I don't know how best to do it. The easiest way is probably to just not use this data structure and use a B-tree instead.
09:29:34 <wob_jonas> Second. Like many other binary data structures, this one has a fibonacci version.
09:30:07 <wob_jonas> Ideally I should use the fibonacci version for eso purposes. In practice, that would screw with my mind too much so I'd be unable to write a correct implementation, so I might not do that.
09:30:54 <wob_jonas> Third, name. If this data structure doesn't yet have a good name, then I call it a plywood, because it's made of layers (of different sized arrays), and is a cheap substitute for real solid trees.
09:34:13 <shachaf> Didn't I give you a name yesterday?
09:34:27 <shachaf> "cache-oblivious lookahead array"
09:34:35 <shachaf> Is this the same thing as COLA or not?
09:34:37 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, that turned out to be this structure?
09:34:45 <wob_jonas> I dunno, I haven't read the slides you linked to yet
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10:50:55 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh no. these slides are basically stored as bitmaps. wtf.
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11:52:35 <b_jonas> That reminds me. If I eventually want to buy an internet domain name for my personal stuff, if I use a distinctive enough name, what top-level domain do you think is the best to put it under? Possibilities can include .org, .net, .com, .xyz
11:52:54 <b_jonas> (Don't hold your breath, this won't happen any time soon, and the answer might change by that time.)
12:22:07 <lambdabot> Plugin `search' failed with: Network.Socket.connect: <socket: 13>: does not exist (No route to host)
12:22:20 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot
12:28:10 <int-e> So it still needs that workaround (permanently add an IPv6 neighbour). I wonder whose bug that is.
12:28:48 <b_jonas> int-e: "I wonder whose bug that is" => ah yes, those are the best bugs
12:30:28 <int-e> it's not lambdabot's... it's more low-level than that (I could reproduce it with curl)
12:30:52 <int-e> It's either the Linux kernel or the configuration of the local router.
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13:17:48 <b_jonas> The boost license FAQ "http://www.boost.org/users/license.html" has two interesting tidbits.
13:17:58 <b_jonas> "Why is the "disclaimer" paragraph of the license entirely in uppercase? Capitalization of these particular provisions is a US legal mandate for consumer protection."
13:18:37 <b_jonas> "Do I have to copyright/license trivial files? Even a test file that just contains an empty main() should have a copyright. Files without copyrights make corporate lawyers nervous, and that's a barrier to adoption. The more of Boost is uniformly copyrighted and licensed, the less problem people will have with mounting a Boost release CD on a corporate server."
13:19:03 <b_jonas> Both of these make sense in a twisted legal sort of way in retrospect, but I wouldn't have guessed them.
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14:19:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53132&oldid=49652 * Zseri * (+7) Category
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14:30:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53133&oldid=53115 * Zseri * (+11) +Influence:Terse
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15:23:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: you're right. although I don't like those slides, they do seem to describe the same dictionary data structure as the one I said.
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15:52:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainflub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53134&oldid=53125 * Snorepion * (+18) My user page link is still red, updating the page might help
16:03:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainflub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53135&oldid=53134 * Snorepion * (-1) fix broken link
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16:28:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainflub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53136&oldid=53135 * Snorepion * (+278) /* Examples */ Better hello world
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17:55:03 <imode> hopefully medium well. :P
17:55:24 <rdococ> I like the concept I had of a 'Scope' object, but I have no idea how I'd incorporate that in an interesting manner.
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18:26:34 <\oren\> Lol world war three is apparently hapening
18:28:04 <\oren\> North korea says they're gonna start shooting down any american aircraft that come near
18:28:17 <imode> do it. I dare them.
18:28:27 <imode> we'll turn the penninsula into a gulf.
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18:35:07 <b_jonas> \oren\: haven't they said that before?
18:35:59 <b_jonas> \oren\: I mean, they bragged before that they have intercontinental ballistic missiles that they can screw their hydrogen bombs onto. if they really had that, would they have to wait for the aircraft to come near?
18:36:35 <b_jonas> or are they acting like the Iraqi people who said in the news that a farmer shot down the super modern American stealth aircraft with his bird rifle?
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18:38:15 <imode> pretty much the latter. they released a propaganda video that's... just hilarious.
18:39:35 <imode> it shows them "blowing up" U.S aircraft, ships, etc.
18:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> they said the us had declared war with its actions but that's a surprisingly common state of affairs with north korea, meanwhile the threat to shoot down planes isn't terribly grave because, believe it or not, us planes do not in fact habitually fly over north korea
18:43:41 <Phantom_Hoover> they might plausibly try, though. something could happen but it's not 'ww3 now' territory
18:44:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chimera]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53137&oldid=17981 * Zseri * (+95) Categories
18:44:25 <imode> we hit "ww3 now" when they actually strike.
18:49:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53138&oldid=53133 * Zseri * (+19) +Category:2017
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19:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> imode, b_jonas, fwiw i've found that by far the best way to get clued up on NK is to follow analysts on twitter
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19:47:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, imode: Somehow I doubt that north korea will trigger WW3. Nobody likes them. Sure, China and Russia don't like US messing in the region, but WW3? Probably not
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20:02:49 <\oren\> Of course, if this was Civilization, then north korea and america would declare war, and then suddenly for no apparent reason india nukes them both
20:03:01 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> I tried loading one DOS game on my Linux computer and now the level editor is not work properly. It won't save properly, but the game itself is otherwise working OK." => the problem is that the simulated video card and motherboard doesn't behave exactly like the hardware one.
20:05:47 <wob_jonas> the tunes log is missing for half of the interesting conversation we had yesterday.
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20:21:27 <rdococ> \oren\: that underflow glitch :P
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20:48:41 <HackEgo> olist 1100: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:02:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, my favourite twitter comment on it of the day is:
21:02:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "So far we have not figured out what they can shoot down, sink or shell and precipitate a full hot war."
21:03:04 <Phantom_Hoover> they have learned from experience that the us will put up with a lot of shit
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21:31:23 <wob_jonas> fungot, when have you last cleaned your fridge?
21:31:23 <fungot> wob_jonas: look, you're trying to lead well, but has not been dispelled! hah, i should have specified: i'm from like 2 hours in this comic... spider-man! will!! die!
21:37:45 <HackEgo> Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways.
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22:09:14 <\oren\> this aint world war three?! lame
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22:29:35 <rdococ> fungot, are you actually a human, or well, it depends on whether the chicken or the egg that I just laid - and haha!
22:29:35 <fungot> rdococ: to the last, i will grapple with thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee!
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22:40:45 <fizzie> Heh, I haven't seen a loopy fungot in quite a bit.
22:40:45 <fungot> fizzie: you and the dromiceiomimus had a customer is either rude, but as a terminator 2. that was a pretty good... or bad?" each moment we delay, so when i send not to know for sure who i just met!
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22:54:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: the boost license FAQ also tells two interesting things that are sort of obvious in retrospect only
22:55:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: "http://www.boost.org/users/license.html" "Why is the "disclaimer" paragraph of the license entirely in uppercase? Capitalization of these particular provisions is a US legal mandate for consumer protection."
22:55:38 <wob_jonas> and "Do I have to copyright/license trivial files? Even a test file that just contains an empty main() should have a copyright. Files without copyrights make corporate lawyers nervous, and that's a barrier to adoption."
22:55:51 <ais523> wob_jonas: the thing about uppercase license disclaimers, is that the law just says they have to be prominent
22:56:09 <ais523> but there's a court case that found that uppercasing the disclaimer when everything else is lowercase (and in the same/similar font) is sufficient
22:56:23 <ais523> and so everyone uppercases them nowadays because they know that that works
22:57:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but at the same time at least we in Hungary also have laws that none of the rules are allowed to be printed in small font, so they can't really just use different font sizes. it's either all caps or bolding, and bolding doesn't easily work in text source code
22:58:04 <wob_jonas> (about a third of the text of the travel insurance I buy is in bold, sometimes indicating such disclaimers, and sometimes that it's changed since the previous version, and you can't tell which clause is bold for which of those reasons)
22:59:07 <shachaf> Insurance is so complicated.
22:59:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, but I read it through, and it basically comes down to being a travel insurance with some extra services that I don't need but I also can practically never use in practice because the disclaimers cover everything
23:00:43 <shachaf> I quit my job last week. So now I need to figure out US health insurance.
23:02:31 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what job are you looking for now, and are you planning to relocate?
23:02:45 <shachaf> Not immediately looking for any job.
23:03:05 <shachaf> Should I get another job or should I be a lazy unemployed bum for a while?
23:03:29 <shachaf> I have no plans to move but I might.
23:03:30 <wob_jonas> you should *look* for a job. it will take some time to find a good job anyway. you don't have to intentionally delay for that.
23:03:45 <shachaf> But looking for a job is even more stressful than having a job.
23:03:49 <wob_jonas> yeah, obviously the way I should ask is how far you're willing to move for a job.
23:04:10 <shachaf> I'm willing to move anywhere, I suppose. But this area isn't so bad.
23:05:13 <shachaf> Why, where do you recommend?
23:05:57 <shachaf> One time a company wanted me to move to Istanbul for a job. I guess that was a bit drastic for me.
23:06:45 <shachaf> But I think one reason they were in Istanbul was that it was cheaper. Why would I move far away to a place I don't particularly want to live in to work at a job that paid less?
23:06:50 <wob_jonas> I've no idea, I'm in Hungary, but it's not a good place to move to.
23:07:17 <wob_jonas> Exactly. You don't get payed much here, which is why companies get people to work here.
23:08:16 <shachaf> If income scales roughly linearly with cost of living, it's better to live in the most expensive place.
23:08:16 <shachaf> (It doesn't, of course. But it might still be better.)
23:08:21 <wob_jonas> All the qualified workers are moving away from Hungary, but at the same time the companies in western europe figure out they can get half-qualified workers here for much less money than in western europe who work better than the people hired in india for free, so they fire the western europeans and hire teams here.
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23:09:55 <shachaf> It looks like keeping my employer's health insurance will cost me a bit over $500/month. That's a lot but it's less than I was expecting.
23:10:38 <wob_jonas> can't you choose some other health insurance?
23:10:46 <wob_jonas> I mean, I understand it's beneficial while you're working there
23:10:54 <shachaf> The cheapest I can get would probably cost ~$250/month.
23:12:31 <shachaf> I got the fanciest most expensive option because my employer was subsidizing most of it. Maybe that was a mistake.
23:12:37 <wob_jonas> that sounds more reasonable, unless you're over 65 years old or something
23:13:02 <shachaf> I suppose it depends on how you treat insurance.
23:13:25 <shachaf> The most important reason to have health insurance is to handle the very expensive cases that cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.
23:14:15 <wob_jonas> like needing to swap your dialysis filter every two days
23:15:21 <shachaf> Dialysis is covered for everyone in the US, I believe.
23:16:07 <wob_jonas> ok. then expensive patented heart medicine.
23:16:27 <wob_jonas> or just the general cost of making hospitals work, which is getting more and more expensive.
23:16:45 <shachaf> I went to the hospital for the first time in a decade last month or so.
23:17:01 <shachaf> Had a good time getting X-rays and CT scans and things.
23:17:16 <shachaf> Looks like I'm OK, though. Hopefully.
23:17:28 <wob_jonas> some of those turn out to be less scary than you thought as a child
23:18:38 <wob_jonas> It turns out getting water through IV is not such a bad or painful thing as I remembered from when I was nine years old, it's just that every time I had to get that, I was so sick that everything felt like a bad experience.
23:19:04 <shachaf> Have you gotten a CT scan?
23:19:05 <wob_jonas> Having a needle stuck in your arm all day isn't as uncomfortable as I remembered.
23:19:14 <wob_jonas> Yes, and those aren't as bad as they imply either.
23:19:18 <shachaf> There's no needle, is there?
23:19:38 <wob_jonas> The doctors warn that it's very loud, and while it's loud, it's not a distracting sort of sound, but a comforting hum.
23:19:49 <shachaf> Getting the dye injected was a very odd experience.
23:20:15 <wob_jonas> CT scan is just an ordinary X-ray, only with a hundred times
23:20:24 <shachaf> It feels very warm. I guess you can feel your own circulation.
23:20:44 <wob_jonas> they scare you about that too, saying they leave a needle in your arm after the dye because there's a small chance of an allergic reaction to it
23:23:03 <wob_jonas> I think I got dye twice, once for CT, and once for just plain X-ray. Plus radioactive measurement chemical once.
23:23:17 <shachaf> "Hungary spent the equivalent of USD 1719 per person on health in 2013, compared with an OECD average of USD 3453."
23:23:33 <wob_jonas> Sort of like radioactive dye, but because they measure the radiation rather than the absorbtion there, it needs only a much smaller dose.
23:24:01 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that's the costs the state pays. it doesn't include what people pay for themselves I think.
23:24:43 <shachaf> I think that's the the total spending.
23:24:48 <shachaf> "Public sources accounted for 65% of overall health spending, below the OECD average"
23:24:55 <shachaf> https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Country-Note-HUNGARY-OECD-Health-Statistics-2015.pdf
23:25:10 <wob_jonas> How about private health insurance companies?
23:25:42 <wob_jonas> at least if you only measure the costs accounted for, not the black market stuff and tips
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23:30:27 <shachaf> The same source says the US spent $8713/person: https://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/Country-Note-UNITED%20STATES-OECD-Health-Statistics-2015.pdf
23:33:15 <shachaf> US politicians are saying a lot of nonsense about health insurance.
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23:36:02 <shachaf> Anyway, $500/month is below the US number but way above the Hungarian number.
23:36:50 <wob_jonas> politicians always say a lot of nonsense. that's their work
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23:37:17 <shachaf> I think maybe health insurance is just fundamentally problematic without a lot of regulation (maybe of a form similar to the ACA in the US).
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23:46:59 <shachaf> Do you like the winner's curse?
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02:18:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: Are you stopping a little north too?
02:19:09 <copumpkin> Not sure I’ll have time, just here for gf’s conference
02:20:52 <shachaf> Did you bring your pooches?
02:21:25 <copumpkin> Ah yeah that’s quite a trip. We have a couple of free days afterwards but will probably just make it to LA
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02:21:58 <shachaf> What's your trip's schedule?
02:22:32 <shachaf> I've been thinking of going to San Diego at one point but I don't have definite plans so I guess it probably wouldn't overlap.
02:22:45 <shachaf> Maybe I should go somewhere else now that I have all this free time.
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04:31:14 <oerjan> ais523: your quit message is more noisy than three ordinary quit/join lines tdnh
04:32:05 <ais523> it's informative, and quit messages are easy enough to filter out (either mentally or technologically) if you don't like them
04:32:32 <ais523> also, how narrow is your client? I'd be surprised if it came to more than two lines on this one
04:34:40 <ais523> I might golf it down a bit once people have got used to it, though
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04:57:10 <oerjan> ais523: 80 chars wide terminal
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05:01:57 <oerjan> but there's a 10 char left margin on the continuation lines
05:02:50 <oerjan> which is less than on ordinary messages
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05:06:19 <ais523> hm, I wonder if a line consisting entirely of lowercase i's could come to 1 line on my client but 3 on yours
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05:21:07 <oerjan> assuming you're using a proportional sans serif font...
05:21:18 <ais523> yes, and a fairly small one
05:21:23 <ais523> in a fairly wide client
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07:24:39 <Taneb> I like how the URL says "fuck" but the page itself censors it
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07:26:21 <shachaf> Perhaps the domain was registered by a third party.
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10:08:53 <HackEgo> welcome.tr//Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! <http://esolangs.org/>: Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde #esoteric deneyin.)
10:09:05 <HackEgo> 1/2:no//No means hi. \ md5//MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens. \ trantor//Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. \ busy beaver growth//No one can compute the length of a wisdom entry sufficient to explain busy beaver g
10:09:08 <HackEgo> 2/2:rowth. \ high hat//A high hat is the same as a top hat, not the same as a hi-hat, just like how a top quark is not the same as an up quark.
10:09:27 * boily inhales a wisdom hit
10:22:25 <b_jonas> hehe, half of those are mine
10:22:32 <b_jonas> what does the MD5 refer to?
10:22:55 <b_jonas> I mean the aliens part in it
10:23:09 <HackEgo> 5133:2014-11-15 <mromän> learn MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens.
10:24:00 <shachaf> 04:23:13 <fungot> mroman: it's defined as a function? can't you use alien? beings)
10:24:00 <fungot> shachaf: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle."? and there's a little picture of a ruler.
10:24:03 <shachaf> 04:23:25 <mroman> I'm not sure if aliens know what sha1 is.
10:24:06 <shachaf> 04:27:43 <fizzie> Yes, they're probably stuck with MD5 still.
10:24:17 <shachaf> fungot: don't kid us, you're sauzzled all the time
10:24:18 <fungot> shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me!
10:24:54 <b_jonas> I have some questions about esolang design.
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11:40:07 <int-e> `addquote <fungot> shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me!
11:40:07 <fungot> int-e: in a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way?
11:40:10 <HackEgo> 1315) <fungot> shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me!
11:41:48 <int-e> `` sed -i '$s=shachaf=shachaf=' quotes
11:41:49 <HackEgo> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he shou
11:42:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found
11:42:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
11:43:05 <HackEgo> 1315) <fungot> shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me!
11:43:24 <int-e> shachaf: insert a ^O in hope of not hilighting you
11:43:30 <shachaf> Unfortunately I have /hilight on /chaf\b/
11:44:15 <shachaf> imo if you're going to do it do it properly twh
11:44:34 <b_jonas> yeah, I should write a proper noping script for hackego. I promised once.
11:45:01 <int-e> hum, not sure what you mean by properly
11:46:01 <b_jonas> noping as in modifying a nick to fool that user's client to not recognize it, while humans reading it will still recognize it. culprits macros already do this, but I want to improve on the specifics.
11:46:07 <shachaf> something that doesn't match /chaf\b/ hth
11:46:48 <b_jonas> I said I'd try to make a better one, and make a version of my culprits-ng command that uses it, but so far I was lazy
11:47:04 <shachaf> It should be in something other than Perl.
11:48:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: we sort of have a lack of interpreters and compilers on hackego, and at one point I had trouble when trying to install a linux binary onto hackego
11:49:03 <b_jonas> if this wasn't to be part of Hackego, then sure,
11:49:23 <b_jonas> but I want to use it in a culprits program, and that has to access hackego's version control system, so it's hard to put it outside hackego
11:49:30 <int-e> `` sed -i '$s=sha[c]haf=shachaf=' quotes > /dev/null
11:49:37 <b_jonas> I don't wish to write it all in bash
11:49:43 <int-e> I guess that's the standard position, going by `hlnp
11:49:55 <HackEgo> 1315) <fungot> shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me!
11:50:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: do you have reasonable suggestions for how I could use some other useful programming language that has a decent interpreter or compiler I can easily run on hackego?
11:50:37 <shachaf> You can use Python, there are a bunch of programs that use that.
11:50:45 <shachaf> Or you can use an esoteric language.
11:51:20 <int-e> shachaf: I've been told that the funpuns are entirely accidental; is that true?
11:51:50 <int-e> `` echo funpuns | tr a-z n-za-m
11:51:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: python could be a reasonable suggestion. I'll consider that.
11:52:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: I won't write in brainfuck, because it's brainfuck, and I won't write in unlambda or underload or any language that doesn't have easy handling of character IO,
11:53:09 <b_jonas> and for most esolangs, the problem is that you need an interpreter on hackego, for which you'd need a non-eso programming language in which the interpreter is written in.
11:54:37 <HackEgo> bash: python3: command not found
11:54:45 <shachaf> int-e: Are fun puns ever an accident?
11:54:52 <HackEgo> bash: py: command not found
11:54:59 <b_jonas> do we have a python3 on hackego?
11:55:18 <int-e> shachaf: It's a rare occasion.
11:59:04 <int-e> `` tr a-z n-za-m <<<sheep
12:25:06 <b_jonas> I think we only have python 2.7 and maybe 2.6
12:25:29 <b_jonas> hopefully pyhton2.7 actually works. I'll try to use that then
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13:59:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53139&oldid=45164 * SuperJedi224 * (-61)
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16:16:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fonts: not found
16:16:51 <HackEgo> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz
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18:53:46 <\oren\> lol chelsea manning is banned from canada
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22:44:29 <\oren\> the coffee machine broke down because we didn't "lubricate the brew group"
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23:28:55 <HackEgo> 1/2:something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom//It is now. \ egobot//EgoBot is my arch-nemesis. \ haiku//🀨や⛄ \ elrond//Elrond is a rogue program originally created to police the Matrix, eventually gaining increased individuality and becoming a threat to the Machines themselves. \ indexed monad//Indexed monads are just monads on an in
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01:26:37 <imode> golly's sourceforge page goes down a lot.
01:27:13 <Hooloovo0> I wish they updated the android version
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01:30:50 <imode> I'm wanting to figure out how it handles so many CAs of different rulesets.
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01:34:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thenewcomposer * New user account
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01:41:42 <Hooloovo0> I don't recall very much about them, but they're just text files
01:41:57 <imode> yeah. I'm looking for documentation on them though.
01:42:05 <Hooloovo0> they're documented somewhere I think, maybe on the forums?
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01:42:27 <ais523> they should be written in SMETANA, really :-P
01:42:56 <ais523> what's the CA description language from catseye?
01:43:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53140&oldid=53117 * Thenewcomposer * (+234) /* Introductions */
01:45:45 <ais523> they're vaguely similar names, I guess
01:45:58 <imode> all caps, end in "A". :P
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01:48:29 <imode> having played BOTW recently I've been drawing things up related to emergent systems.
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01:49:22 <ais523> imode: BOTW is one of those examples where a game developer has decided "I don't care if this game becomes an emergent system, I'm just going to live with whatever it comes up with"
01:49:24 <imode> considering CAs are just a bunch of FSMs with their inputs and outputs linked four ways, I'm experimenting with what I can make.
01:49:39 <imode> ais523: pretty much.
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01:55:56 <imode> space in a CA is kind of like those little LCD games, where the play field is already mapped out and the control logic just lights parts of it up depending on the game state.
01:56:51 <imode> getting a little "particle" to move around must be interesting.
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02:23:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minim]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53141 * Thenewcomposer * (+5683) Created page with "= Minim: A Simple, Low Level, Interpreted Language Minim was == HELLO WORLD == ;;; START HELLO WORLD<br> [1 @ 13] = "Hello, World!\n". ; Put the string in memory [0] = 1...."
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14:41:55 <b_jonas> I just figured out a new twist on the esoteric language I'm trying to make. This will make my work harder, but it may be worth it.
14:42:24 <b_jonas> (My work as in writing documentation, reference implementation, and example programs.)
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15:16:08 <b_jonas> I can't tell yet because the language is still secret
15:19:28 <b_jonas> I totally disagree with the statement of today's xkcd
15:20:23 <b_jonas> The news reporters always want to have lab coat guys shown on screen. So they interview an astronomer for every solar eclipse, a mathematician every time someone wins the lottery (blackboard instead of lab coat that time),
15:21:04 <b_jonas> and a virologist and vulcanologist and robot engineer and all that sort of dangerous sounding profession for all the most boring fake news they invent.
15:21:26 <b_jonas> It's exactly when they ask apparently boring scientists when we should worry that there's something scary going on.
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15:36:42 <int-e> "breaking news" != "news" (how many unexpected solar eclipses have you experienced?)
15:36:57 <int-e> but the scale is totally arbitrary even with that considered.
15:37:25 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, but even given that
15:38:07 <int-e> (also anything sun related is very likely to be a total extinction event; those aren't really worth worrying about in my view)
15:38:53 <ais523> int-e: a particularly bad solar storm could do a lot of damage without causing a total extinction
15:38:59 <int-e> I mean, when they happen and can no longer be prevented ;)
15:40:06 <int-e> It's a bit stupid to attach it to a scientific field. A breaking news event involving a virologist could be a cure for HIV.
15:42:11 <int-e> . o O ( There are no absolute truths. )
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15:43:17 <b_jonas> int-e: or just some other daily story about which parents don't want their children to get the flu shot and asking the virologist for a thousandth time why the flu shot is important to stop spreading the epidemic to other people and stuff
15:44:01 <b_jonas> the strip says "local reporters interviewing scientists about a breaking news story"
15:46:28 <int-e> so I guess there's a puzzle there... what concrete event(s) did Randall have in mind when creating this ranking?
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16:13:32 <b_jonas> ais523: by the way, someone from FSF replied to my email about the licencing question, but didn't say anything useful.
16:14:45 <b_jonas> Basically they confirmed that, sure, the licenses are written with lawyers involved trying to make it a global license, so it should work anywhere.
16:14:58 <b_jonas> But not a specific legal opinion or anything that would directly answer me.
16:15:20 <ais523> given how many bugs there are in the GPLv2, I'm not convinced that their lawyers are all that good
16:15:30 <ais523> (the GPLv3 is much better, but it had a really long public review period)
16:16:06 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure how many of those are actual bugs, as opposed to just problems that didn't exist back when v2 was written and couldn't have been foreseen reasonably.
16:17:09 <b_jonas> But obviously the FSF already says that v3 is better than v2, so there's no point complaining to _them_ about bugs in v2 only.
16:18:24 <alercah> and it's really important to remember that the FSF is ideological first
16:22:07 <b_jonas> Also, the v2 is from 1991. The laws have genuinely changed since. The whole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPS_Agreement global international convention is from 1995, and it took years after that for countries to agree to it,
16:22:25 <b_jonas> which is why the Hungarian law I link to is dated to 1999 (but modified since) in first place.
16:23:32 <b_jonas> And, in particular, the section 43.4 that talks about geographical area was modified in 2011, let me see the version history of that one if I can.
16:28:10 <b_jonas> hmm, I think the free version history info on net.jogtar.hu doesn't go back to that
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17:11:46 <imode> hm. does describing any arbitrary cellular automata require a turing complete language?
17:11:59 <imode> I don't think it does. :P
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17:16:04 <ais523> imode: it depends on how you define cellular automata, possibly?
17:16:26 <ais523> although it also depends on how you define the description
17:16:50 <ais523> alpaca is not TC because it can't express an infinite loop (it's only usable for producing interpreters as output, not interpreting directly)
17:17:00 <ais523> but if alpaca is a cellular automaton description language, so is cat
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17:18:38 <rdococ> For whatever reason, I feel afraid of talking here.
17:18:47 <imode> say I hand you an arbitrary CA with some behavior. for any behavior I could possibly hand to you, I want you to re-create the rules followed by every cell in any way you'd like. does this require a turing complete language?
17:19:23 <imode> my gut says no, because why would it? the board's state is, well, the machine state. you could describe most behaviors with just an FSM.
17:19:45 <imode> but it'd be interesting to find a counterexample.
17:19:51 <ais523> imode: what are the inputs and the outputs to the program in the language that you're not sure whether it's TC?
17:20:06 <ais523> as far as I can tell, either the output is a program that emulates the CA, in which case trivially the language doesn't need to be TC
17:20:17 <ais523> or else the program itself emulates the CA, in which case it's TC because some CAs are TC
17:20:29 <ais523> you seem like you have something else in mind, but I'm not sure what
17:21:55 <imode> alright, alternative description. I write a CA simulator that supports black-box functions for rules. board state + coordinates for the currently active cell go into the black box, resulting cell state comes out.
17:22:37 <imode> is there a rule set that necessitates that whatever's in the black box use a turing complete language?
17:22:41 <ais523> your program now takes an infinite amount of input, which causes the normal definitions of TCness to break down
17:23:07 <ais523> as in, it's hard to say what being turing-complete even means in that context
17:23:09 <imode> ...nowhere did I mention infinite. try a 30x30 grid.
17:23:19 <imode> like, it's not hard to extrapolate what I'm talking about here.
17:23:24 <imode> it's not even hard to interpret.
17:23:28 <ais523> if you only have a finite portion of the grid as input, then you can trivially just use a lookup table
17:23:33 <ais523> as you only have finitely many possible inputs
17:23:43 <ais523> and the program itself is deterministic
17:24:04 <rdococ> the input grid could be the neighborhood of the cell
17:24:31 <Taneb> https://arin.ga/Q5kTWT my amazing new text editor
17:24:31 <imode> in which case, what rules would break the idea of a lookup table.
17:24:56 <ais523> either you'd need infinitely many states per cell (e.g. an analog CA)
17:25:16 <ais523> or else you'd need to look at an arbitrary amount of context (e.g. in RUBE, a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates)
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17:25:56 <imode> what that says to me is "anything past the neighborhood of the cell".
17:27:14 <imode> that's actually interesting. if a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates, what's stopping me from defining an FSM that takes that into account, and if the dozer pushes the first crate, you swap the pushed crate's state to "crate, pushed left".
17:27:59 <Taneb> That becomes difficult to interpret
17:28:01 <imode> and the crates next to that pushed crate take note of that and alter their own states. then near the end of the chain, the empty spot just turns into a crate...
17:28:05 <ais523> imode: it's not a finite state machine because a single crate has to keep looking left as long as there are crates, to see if it finds a dozer or empty space
17:28:13 <ais523> so you have infinitely many states to deal with
17:28:44 <ais523> you can make it into a CA with "speed of light" propagation of data rather than instantaneous
17:28:45 <imode> ais523: not from what I can see. it can still be defined by local rules.
17:28:51 <ais523> e.g. by having the dozer start a vibration
17:29:01 <imode> that's what I was intending to describe above.
17:29:05 <ais523> but then the crates will keep moving for some time even if you remove the dozer
17:29:34 <imode> say > is our dozer, # is our crate, and @ is "crate, moving right."
17:30:39 <imode> >### is our initial state. say the dozer pushes the first crate. the next state would be >@##. the state after would be >@@#. after that, >@@@. after that, >@@ #. after that, >@ ##. after that, > ###.
17:30:56 <imode> that doesn't take a turing complete language to describe.
17:31:09 <ais523> imode: yes but it's much slower than actual RUBE
17:31:16 <ais523> in RUBE, you can push an entire sequence of crates in a single tick
17:31:28 <ais523> which is necessary in several Rubicon levels as a method of fast long-distance communication
17:31:52 <imode> I'm not interested in speed, I'm interested in requirements.
17:32:26 <ais523> but the speed affects the semantics of a CA
17:32:31 <ais523> because multiple things go on at once
17:32:33 <imode> that's true. propagation.
17:33:13 <imode> interesting, though. so you do need a TC language to account for "faster-than-light" travel.
17:33:22 <imode> wonder if there's any way around that.
17:33:33 <ais523> doesn't need to be TC specifically, just an FSM is not good enough
17:33:45 <ais523> for example, regular expressions are good enough for this and yet sub-TC
17:34:06 <imode> yeah. pretty much anything that has the capability to expand the neighborhood of a given cell can do that.
17:36:20 <imode> ..wait, regexes are FSMs.
17:37:05 <imode> so, they are good enough for this by your word. :P
17:37:52 <ais523> imode: different level of FSMs
17:38:03 <ais523> a regex processes input as it reads it
17:38:17 <ais523> whereas the FSMs we were talking about earlier just have a single input and aren't applied iteratively to it
17:39:09 <imode> not sure what you're talking about because both march along iteratively along their respective inputs.
17:39:17 <imode> be it the board or the string they're fed.
17:39:19 <ais523> imode: take Life as an example
17:39:46 <ais523> the algorithm for calculating one cell there is based on having one output for each of the 512 possible inputs (each of which is the state of the cell and adjacent cells)
17:40:18 <ais523> it's not typically based on reading the cells one at a time and having an internal state that updates with each cell read; that'd be substantially more complex as you'd need to count the cells to know which one was the central one
17:41:00 <imode> you could describe life as an FSM, because the transition between "alive" and "dead" depends on the sum of its neighbors, which can be fed as input to the FSM.
17:41:50 <shachaf> Is there something like a cellular automaton where instead of discrete cells you have a continuous function?
17:42:00 <imode> it's also not hard to do naive iteration over the whole board using that. just keep applying the same function to each cell over and over, running from row to row.
17:42:10 <imode> shachaf: smoothlife.
17:42:36 <shachaf> Ah, maybe I've seen this before.
17:43:40 <imode> ais523: in that way, the whole board can be seen as an array of finite state machines, hooked up to a 'sum' unit that adds all of a cell's neighbors together and feeds it to the FSM underneath it.
17:43:51 <ais523> shachaf: Wolfram generated a few of those, but I'm not sure if any were actually studied from a programming point of view
17:44:18 <ais523> imode: in that sense, a regex isn't an FSM, then
17:44:35 <ais523> as it needs to take input in an entirely different way to be implementable with an FSM
17:44:54 <ais523> you can think of a regex as a robot that moves around the grid, reading cells, but has a finite amount of internal state
17:45:16 <ais523> if it can only move in one direction in a straight line, you have a regex amount of power
17:45:22 <imode> I'm aware. but if you leave it in place, marching along the string just means "marching in time."
17:45:39 <ais523> if it can backtrack, it's more powerful than that (potentially even TC if you have two dimensions)
17:45:39 <imode> meaning you're continuously reading the neighborhood around you as it evolves.
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17:50:53 <imode> I guess if you don't need FTL communication a non-TC rule language would suffice.
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20:26:16 <imode> I wonder how hard it'd be to get a "reasonable" approximation of something like gravity or magnetism in a CA.
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20:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> imode, hard b/c there's no galilean invariance in a ca
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21:11:00 <imode> Phantom_Hoover: it's pretty easy to make something fall in a given direction, but I imagine you'd run into limits regarding the neighborhoods of each cell. instead of orbits you'd get everything just pushing towards the gravity source.
21:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember voraciously reading everything i could find on this, probably nearly a decade ago now
21:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think anyone had a decent model of gravity in a CA
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21:13:08 <imode> yeah. I don't know what other "games" do, but something like The Powder Toy treats the world state as a set of particles rather than a grid with cells.
21:16:14 <imode> I know you can do a sort of gradient, where if you place a "black hole" state in one cell, it'll spawn a bunch of force cells around it that point towards it with a certain strength, but at that point you might as well go with particles.
21:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> modelling motion in a ca is hard in general because motion is all about 'hidden' state
21:35:06 <imode> you can try to model it via afterimages and a sort of type+force state model.
21:35:36 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but you discard so much parsimony in doing that that i've never really seen the point
21:35:49 <imode> yeah. you might as well take the high road and just do sparse particles.
21:45:01 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
21:49:03 <HackEgo> pbflist is update notification for the Perry Bible Fellowship webcomic. http://pbfcomics.com/
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22:08:40 <wob_jonas> I found another of these cases when searching for "all" in a search web interface doesn't work, you have to choose a specific category. Aleph library catalog of MTA Kvt, entered an ISSN number to the single-field search form, leave default "any field" gives no hits, but if I choose "ISSN" instead, it does work.
22:09:26 <wob_jonas> What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don't understand what "any field" is, then don't make the fucking selection box say that! Say "some random fields" or "author or title" or just exclude it entirely.
22:10:08 <wob_jonas> URL of catalog is http://opac.mtak.hu
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23:53:58 <boily> I was on vacation.
23:54:02 <boily> were you postcarded?
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00:30:31 <lambdabot> WIII 272300Z VRB03KT 2300 BR SCT019 25/25 Q1012 NOSIG
00:30:38 <HackEgo> Soekarno Hatta Intl (CGK, WIII)
00:30:46 <lambdabot> CYUL 272300Z 28011G16KT 15SM FEW030TCU FEW045 SCT090 BKN140 OVC220 22/20 A2968 RMK TCU1SC2AC2AC3CI1 TCU TR SLP051 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
00:32:09 <oerjan> . o O ( what did you do in your vacation? i got to know Java better )
00:32:43 <boily> I went to Jakarta (two nights), Bandar Seri Begawan, Denpasar and Yogyakarta.
00:33:47 <oerjan> sounds like Java all right
00:34:45 <boily> I spent six nights each at the other places, visited temples, other cities, jungles, forests, ate random unknown things and took sunny pictures ^^
00:35:43 <oerjan> as long as you weren't eaten by random unknown things
00:36:08 <boily> I appear to have remained intact hth
00:41:09 <HackEgo> 1/3:ipa//The IPA (short for International Phonetic Abjad) is an international standard encoding all non-vowel sounds in all spoken languages, and is used to indicate the pronunciation of words. It is incredibly useful, unless you need to pronounce a word. \ welcome.fr//Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des lang
00:42:30 <HackEgo> 2/3:ages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.) \ magus//magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. \ claustrophobia//Claustrophobia thought the wisdom database was getting too crowded, so left. \ 9
00:42:34 <HackEgo> 3/3://9 is a free smalltalk.
00:46:25 <int-e> shachaf: btw I don't even hate phabricator or arcanist. I can see its appeal, but I'd need a few weeks of practice to become fluent with arcanist, and that's not happening when I'm contributing one patch every 6 months to ghc :P
00:46:53 <int-e> so in reality I'd have to relearn the tool every single time, and that's tedious.
00:48:35 <shachaf> Right, so what you're saying is, more things should use Phabricator.
00:53:13 <int-e> shachaf: well, not exactly.
00:54:16 <shachaf> I think code review is important and lacking in many projects.
00:54:43 <int-e> it should have a baby version of its console with 3 buttons (or was it 2 or 4?) instead of hundreds.
00:54:44 <shachaf> I have my complaints about Phabricator, but it's better than the status quo.
00:55:08 <int-e> (I'm trying to make a reference to Inside out)
00:57:35 <quintopia> boily: how long are your femurs, as a fraction of your height
00:58:34 <boily> quintopia: darn. may take a few more days!
00:58:59 <boily> quintopia: I'd say about a quarter, eh?
00:59:01 <int-e> Well, the movie has a bunch of characters inside the brain of a human... they control it (mostly its emotions) by pushing buttons on a console. And it starts out with a baby and very few buttons, (one for happiness, one for sadness, I forgot whether there are any more). And then the console gets more and more complicated as the child grows up.
01:00:35 <int-e> Oh wait, the buttons were for crying and laughter. The characters are the emotions. Anyway, it was a cute movie, I should watch it again to refresh my memory :)
01:01:09 <shachaf> Babies are so complicated.
01:02:00 <int-e> it's amazing how any babies survive the first week.
01:05:18 <shachaf> I was a baby myself, once.
01:05:57 <int-e> I've heard stories and seen pictures.
01:06:54 <shachaf> i,i https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAWvvE9w6Po
01:07:18 <int-e> shachaf: I mean I don't remember being a baby.
01:11:12 <boily> there was a time where int-e was a short-e.
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01:12:13 <shachaf> I thought int-e was interrupt $0xe
01:13:26 <boily> int-e: which type are you?
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01:23:15 <quintopia> boily: mine are 26%. theres a kid at 30%
01:33:11 <quintopia> this girl in front of me declined measurement
01:35:26 <boily> a very femury person.
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02:29:49 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:30:08 <shachaf> `swrjan s/pheasant back/dryad saddle/
02:30:10 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:30:47 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerioporus_squamosus hth
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02:31:40 <oerjan> ah, squamous, my favorite "sounds more evil than it is" word
02:31:59 <oerjan> (mostly because i saw it first in lovecraft quotes, i think)
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02:34:23 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:40:00 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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02:40:37 <shachaf> Can you remember the word "depreciation"?
02:40:50 <shachaf> Or "depreciated", I suppose.
02:42:18 <oerjan> i used it so rarely i deprecated it hth
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03:31:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you like _Mathematics Made Difficult_?
03:32:39 <shachaf> seems like your type of humour hth
03:32:44 <shachaf> http://i7-dungeon.sourceforge.net/math_hard.pdf (25MB)
03:32:58 <oerjan> not going to read it any time soon.
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03:39:13 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe ørjan would like it better
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08:59:30 <int-e> shachaf: I misremembered, btw. The baby has only one button; regardless of the emotion, it will cry :P
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10:54:56 <b_jonas> I just found out randomly from the internet that there's a museum of natural sciences in Budapest. Why did nobody ever tell that to me? Is it so small, with all the valuable stuff removed during the second world war or what?
10:56:14 <b_jonas> I've been to the big one in Wien.
10:57:41 <b_jonas> Apparently it moved to its current location in 1999.
10:57:52 <b_jonas> Also, apparently it's not even small.
10:58:23 <b_jonas> Why does nobody tell me useful things like this?
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10:59:48 <b_jonas> I'll urgently have to watch this one before it gets wrecked because of politics, but it's possible that it's already got wrecked, in which case I screwed up.
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11:15:45 <b_jonas> Update: yes, it's already started to get wrecked for political reasons. I'm sort of too late.
11:15:54 <b_jonas> Still have to watch it soon.
11:16:11 <b_jonas> I'll ask my brother tomorrow for why he never told me about this one.
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13:45:16 <b_jonas> fungot, why didn't you tell me?
13:45:16 <fungot> b_jonas: this, my friends, is the malaise of the glutton at life's buffet, building complicaters? domino frustraters? wobbley times u.s.a.? um, maybe if i told his jokes
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17:13:55 <doesthiswork> This is a pretty funny linguistic meme http://allthingslinguistic.com/post/165809617830/youve-heard-of-elf-on-the-shelf-now-get-ready
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19:29:00 <quintopia> doesthiswork: i don't get the first one
19:35:12 <quintopia> wait never mind it just clicked for me
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20:32:38 <HackEgo> metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
21:20:45 <HackEgo> 1/2:ehlist//ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/ \ slereah//Slereah est sur un téléphone \ postorder//Postorder is the same as Polish notation, since Post was Polish. Not to be confused with reverse Polish notation, which is postfix. \ clever//Being clever is different from being
21:20:50 <HackEgo> 2/2:wise, but they are indistinguishable in sufficiently large quantities. \ pogrifon//A pogrifon is stim for a gostak's shamtag.
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00:15:12 <HackEgo> 1/2:i,i//i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying". \ reference//reference is dangling, sorry. \ cofridge//Cofridges are ovens or stoves that are disrespectful towards entropy. They are useful for postparing ffee and oking cofood. \ twhib//the world holds its breath \ wisdome//The Wisdome is
00:15:14 <HackEgo> 2/2:the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere".
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02:19:27 <oerjan> <quintopia> doesthiswork: i don't get the first one <-- i got that, but i don't get the second one :(
02:20:05 <oerjan> i'm assuming there's some phonetic symbol resembling those birds, but i cannot find it.
02:22:14 <oerjan> either that or those birds have a name i haven't absorbed
02:24:20 <doesthiswork> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/secretlife/blogposts/whats-a-wug/
02:26:00 <oerjan> i found the wikipedia page first. definitely seen that some time.
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10:43:12 <b_jonas> uh. I don't think that's right.
10:48:01 <b_jonas> `learn Postfix is a genericized trademark of household adhesives for sticking little pieces of paper on your door or monitor to remind you of something or telling your officemates your login password. Called Tack-it in the U.S.
10:48:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'postfix': Postfix is a genericized trademark of household adhesives for sticking little pieces of paper on your door or monitor to remind you of something or telling your officemates your login password. Called Tack-it in the U.S.
10:49:19 <b_jonas> (Note: this is a mix-up of "post-it", which is the genericized trademark brand name of 3M's sticky notes (small note papers with adhesives on it), cloned by lots of other brands but IME always with much worse quality than the originals;
10:50:38 <b_jonas> and of "Blue tack" (U.S.) or "UHU Patafix" (Europe), the name of reusable adhesive blobs for sticking ordinary pieces of paper (not ones that already have adhesives built in) to your door or monitor. I think it's renamed from "Blue tack" because the version sold in Europe these days is white, not blue.)
10:50:54 <b_jonas> (Way to ruin the joke, but I'm putting it in the log in case someone wants to delete the entry later.)
11:06:47 <HackEgo> ysaclist 65: boily shachaf
11:06:49 <HackEgo> ysaclist 66: boily shachaf
11:06:59 <shachaf> Not sure I want to watch 65...
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11:56:49 <b_jonas> Eww. HTML page puts both the sidebar and the main section in floating sections. Such a stupid idae.
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15:14:22 <b_jonas> In today's http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/your-grandfather , do the "dwarven swordsmiths" LoTR style dwarves, D&D dwarves, or Discworld dwarves? It would sort of matter for the context of how cool that weapon is.
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17:40:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Strake * New user account
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18:39:32 <fizzie> b_jonas: Bread as a weapon sort of inherently suggests Discworld dwarves.
18:39:54 <fizzie> https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Dwarf_Bread
18:41:01 <fizzie> (On the other hand, in that case the "dwarven swordsmiths" would presumably have known how to handle it.)
18:46:16 <int-e> why does it have to be one kind of dwarf or another, when it could be a merry mixture of them all
19:23:09 <b_jonas> what does "carried it over the gray mountains" suggesT?
19:23:21 <b_jonas> doesthiswork: this is re http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/your-grandfather
19:24:05 <b_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/921/ clearly suggests LotR on the other hand
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19:25:43 <b_jonas> Xkcd and smbc has so much of the same themes all the time that I wonder if Randall basically just sold his website to Zach after like the first thirty comics and now Zach posts strips of two different styles to them for a different target audience.
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20:19:03 <dan_zh> I've just had a Idea for a esocetric language
20:21:38 <doesthiswork> how interesting, what does it do that is polite?
20:21:59 <dan_zh> The user needs to be polite.
20:24:28 <int-e> . o O ( s/brainfuck/braindead/ )
20:24:39 <dan_zh> So, like the user needs to say PLEASE before doing anything. e.g PLEASE PRINT "HELLO"
20:24:52 <int-e> dan_zh: do you know INTERCAL?
20:25:21 <int-e> let's just say that there's little new under the sun
20:25:44 <dan_zh> oh, INTERCAL! FORGOT ABOUT IT!!
20:28:53 <dan_zh> Well, i wont my language(countdown) to have WEIRDER syntax. I just implemented it in python3
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20:33:51 <doesthiswork> maybe replace the befunge stack with message passing?
20:40:11 <lambdabot> CYVR 291936Z 13009KT 10SM SCT010 BKN018 OVC051 16/15 A2991 RMK SF3SC4SC1 SLP129 DENSITY ALT 200FT
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01:09:46 <HackEgo> 1/2:hacker//Jim Hacker is a former British prime minister. \ ais523//Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. \ rho//Rho is the Greek letter that represents the mind, and thus psychology is called rho
01:09:48 <HackEgo> 2/2:science. Today's reductionists consider the mind obsolete, and prefer to study new rho science. \ treat//Treats are tasty. \ macabre//The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries.
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01:14:24 <HackEgo> English is an inherently ambiguous context-sensitive language that is too powerful to fully describe itself.
01:14:28 <HackEgo> Le français n'est pas le démon, visitez les Coupeurs. Ne pas couvrir. Meilleur avant!
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01:31:19 <boily> helloochaf, bonsoircah.
01:38:44 <shachaf> But they're forgettable, I think
01:46:00 <boily> I was either on vacation and/or lagged when they were issued. last two episodes were very short :/
01:46:18 <boily> primitive technology was nice, tho.
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01:49:01 <shachaf> boily: Sure, sign me up for ptlist
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01:58:04 <shachaf> I think pt is often physical therapy
02:01:46 <shachaf> In this case I meant the first two words of boily's last sentence
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07:23:09 <shachaf> 23:22 <shachaf> i,i an esolang where every time you make a mistake one more thing becomes undefined behavior
07:23:14 <shachaf> 23:22 <shachaf> There's plenty of self-modifying code, but are there self-modifying languages?
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09:47:09 <FreeFull> shachaf: There are self-modifying languages, I think
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10:14:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dan zh * New user account
10:20:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53142&oldid=53140 * Dan zh * (+136)
10:21:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dan zh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53143 * Dan zh * (+101) Created page with "Hi! I am Danil! I like making translators from different languages. I'm Reacheable(sometimes) by IRC."
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12:18:31 <Taneb> Finally got paper for my printer!
12:18:34 <Taneb> What should I print
12:19:12 <int-e> black pages until you run out of ink or toner :P
12:19:45 <int-e> or dark brown if it's a color printer
12:19:54 <Taneb> int-e, I'd probably run out of paper first
12:20:11 <Taneb> And I'd like to print something slightly more interesting
12:20:40 <Taneb> Like "Quantum Lambda Calculi with Calssical Control: Syntax and Expressive Power"
12:24:18 <int-e> print all papers from https://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP.htm ? ;-)
12:31:19 <int-e> or print the source code of X11R6, I hear it's a classic
13:00:51 <fizzie> Print ASCII art to tape on your walls.
13:01:43 <fizzie> Did I mention the time I hooked a tractor feed dot matrix printer to IRC? That got old fast.
13:06:23 <int-e> . o O ( that must have come as a big surprise )
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13:52:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countdown]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53144 * Dan zh * (+583) Created page with "Countdown is a Quite Easy Esoteric Programming Translator. The code is here: global stack stack = [0 , 0, 0] print("Hello! This is the countdown translator!!") print("countdo..."
13:53:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53145&oldid=53144 * Dan zh * (+18)
13:53:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53146&oldid=53145 * Dan zh * (+10)
13:54:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53147&oldid=53146 * Dan zh * (+1)
13:59:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countdown]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53148&oldid=53147 * Dan zh * (+146)
14:00:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53149&oldid=53148 * Dan zh * (-55)
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14:01:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53150&oldid=53149 * Dan zh * (+33)
14:01:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countdown]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53151&oldid=53150 * Dan zh * (+1)
14:08:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53152&oldid=53075 * Dan zh * (+16)
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16:38:38 <zzo38> I think you do not need to print something right away; it can be a waste of paper. Make a printout of something on the times when you need/want them.
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20:06:00 <zzo38> Maybe print a calendar, if you do not already have one.
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20:10:55 <zzo38> Do you like the kind of computer game I make up? It is not quite finish yet, but, many buildings are larger inside but not all; the castle is much smaller inside. On the outside it spans multiple screens, but on the inside it takes up less than a quarter of the screen (and part of the screen is taken up by a message "Why is this castle so small inside? It look much bigger outside")
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20:13:38 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes it is one way to print out the calendar, if you do not need to add the holidays and spaces to write your own markings per days and so on
20:16:39 <zzo38> The king and queen nevertheless does not want this kind of strange monsters in their castle (even though the note says that any people (or monsters) who solve this puzzle are allowed in) and will cast a spell on you!!!
20:27:30 <Taneb> zzo38, thank you for the advice
20:27:48 <Taneb> I ended up print a chapter of a book on quantum lambda calculus (I am kind of into QLC right now)
20:31:08 <zzo38> OK, if you like that, then that is good
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20:43:30 <zzo38> I don't know, but I should learn too, if you explain it please
20:44:32 <Taneb> I presume you are familiar with regular lambda calculus
20:44:48 <Taneb> Or rather, simply typed lambda calculus
20:48:01 <Taneb> And linear typing?
20:52:18 <Taneb> If you take a simply typed lambda calculus with linear typing, product types, and like the version I'm reading has sum types and also recursion
20:52:30 <Taneb> And also a qubit type
20:52:35 <zzo38> I know linear logic, I don't know how linear typing is work
20:53:12 <Taneb> I don't know if linear logic is related to linear typing
20:54:05 <Taneb> But linear typing is a way of encoding "you can only use this value once" in a type system
20:55:26 <zzo38> Well, linear logic can do that too
20:55:51 <int-e> linear logic is "you can only use this premise once (unless there's a bang)" - the connection is the usual one between lambda calculus and sequent calculus
20:56:19 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, I think that is correct
20:56:48 <int-e> you must use the premise as well... the same is true for the linear arguments in the linear lambda calculus
20:57:45 <Taneb> Anyway, it works out that linear typing is good for representing quantum state
20:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> But linear typing is a way of encoding "you can only use this value once" in a type system
20:58:08 <Phantom_Hoover> so that's because you're representing quantum computations that have to conserve information
20:58:26 <Taneb> (I should have said "exactly once", sorry)
20:59:43 <zzo38> I think linear logic also has a question mark, which is like exclamation mark but on the other side of the logic instead.
21:01:41 <shachaf> Is !A the same as, uh, 1 & A & A⊗A & A⊗A⊗A & ... ?
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21:04:42 <zzo38> I have read somewhere that it is possible to have multiple kind of ! and ? which act in the same way but are incompatible.
21:05:29 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't think that that is the case in QLC
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21:07:36 <int-e> shachaf: you do get !x |- x though, and !x = !x,!x in contexts (in the sense that anything provable with !x,!x in the context is provable with !x and vice versa)
21:08:21 <shachaf> int-e: And also !x |- 1, right? Or whatever that thing was.
21:08:35 <shachaf> ! behaves like a comonad and !x behaves like a comonoid. Or something.
21:09:06 <int-e> shachaf: there's no !!x in the syntax.
21:09:13 <int-e> (in what I'm currently reading)
21:09:31 <int-e> "A Lambda Calculus for Quantum Computation" by van Tonder
21:10:15 <int-e> I misunderstood. Let me check
21:10:33 <Taneb> int-e, there is in what I am reading, Quantum Lambda Calculus by Selinger and Valiron
21:10:35 <int-e> yes, you hget !x |- !!x
21:11:01 <int-e> unfamiliar territory, mistakes happen :)
21:11:12 <Taneb> I think in maybe two or three years I would like to do a PhD in QLC (once I have some money saved up)
21:14:01 <int-e> shachaf: (what happened was that I was focussed on abstractions, where there's no !!x, instead of terms, where such a thing does exist)
21:15:18 <int-e> λx . t and λ!x . t
21:15:43 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you should save up money by coming to work in California.
21:15:50 <shachaf> You could work at that quantum computing startup in Berkeley.
21:17:34 <Taneb> For the foreseeable future I'd much rather work in Europe
21:17:39 <shachaf> What does ! mean in a lambda?
21:18:22 <int-e> that the argument is non-linear
21:18:49 <int-e> it corresponds to having !x in the proof context
21:18:52 <shachaf> Does it have a different type?
21:40:09 <Taneb> int-e, I'm printing a copy of van Tonder's thing
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23:50:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Random dude * New user account
23:51:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53153&oldid=53142 * Random dude * (+199) /* Introductions */
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