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00:04:33 <wob_jonas> In http://pbfcomics.com/ , in the bottom mosaic that seems at first as if it listed all strips, why isn't there a link to http://pbfcomics.com/comics/skub/ ?
00:05:26 <wob_jonas> And why does the link to http://pbfcomics.com/comics/harmony/ show the wrong thumbnail image?
00:13:32 <zzo38> Why does pasting a javascript: URI into the location bar when it is currently empty will cause it not to paste the scheme?
00:13:58 <zzo38> (If it is not empty it does paste the scheme, and if the scheme isn't javascript: then it also pastes the scheme)
00:15:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: what browser is this? is it possible that the scheme is logically there but hidden in the display of the url bar? firefox hides https:// in the url bar these days, but it's still there and gets copied when you select the whole thing
00:15:26 <wob_jonas> it also hides most percent-escapes showing them as the character they represent, which is much worse IMO
00:15:41 <zzo38> Firefox. Also, it isn't logically there; if pasted and push return, it doesn't work!
00:16:08 <wob_jonas> there can be other reasons why it doesn't work
00:16:09 <zzo38> But about those other things hidden, I have gotten rid of them. I can show you the code I used to avoid hiding percent-escapes if you want it
00:16:37 <zzo38> wob_jonas: No, it really isn't logically there; if I paste it and then add "javascript:" in front, then it does work.
00:16:57 <wob_jonas> it's not so important that I'd start fixing it. firefox has other bad things, and I won't spend my time fixing them all, except for the really orst ones.
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00:18:17 <zzo38> Yes, and I wrote a document about how to make a better kind
00:20:31 <zzo38> Of web browser program
00:21:05 <wob_jonas> that's not for me. I want to make better software if I have time, but not browser.
00:21:09 <Cthulhux> something better than firefox has become a weekend job as of today
00:22:03 <wob_jonas> and plugins can fix some of the more annoying things in firefox. they made every part pretty hookable.
00:22:05 <zzo38> But I used a code like this: if(location=="chrome://browser/content/browser.xul") window.losslessDecodeURI=x=>x.spec;
00:22:22 <Cthulhux> wob_jonas, they removed most hooks :(
00:22:27 <zzo38> Yes, I did add several extensions as well as userChrome.js with many of my own codes
00:22:37 <zzo38> I did not install the newer version with the removed most hooks
00:23:05 <Cthulhux> fx57 does not support most of old XUL hooks
00:23:09 <zzo38> (This forces it to display percent encoding, I think, rather than the characters they represent)
00:23:37 <Cthulhux> i mean, hooray, it can do sidebars now, but...
00:24:10 <zzo38> I do think XPCOM is stupid, although I think XUL can be good (or something like it; HTML isn't as suitable here)
00:24:32 <wob_jonas> is it the hooks that people used a lot that they removed, or the ones that nobody used?
00:24:51 <zzo38> I have used userChrome.js to make a relative location bar feature.
00:25:12 <Cthulhux> they removed most ways to modify your UI, excluding "add things to the sidebar" and "add a new toolbar button"
00:25:31 <Cthulhux> userChrome.css is an inadequate replacement IMO
00:25:45 <zzo38> Cthulhux: Which isn't very good, as I have instead removed most toolbar buttons, rather than adding stuff.
00:25:54 <wob_jonas> wasn't a CSS always the normal way to modify the UI?
00:26:02 <Cthulhux> zzo38, their reason was "we need chrome compatibility"
00:27:08 <Cthulhux> my firefox updated to 57 yesterday and i never hated using a computer so much in the last few decades-.
00:27:10 <zzo38> If the chrome window has IDs and classes and stuff suitable for CSS, then use of custom CSS codes should help somewhat, although still there are many things it will be no good at.
00:27:23 <zzo38> I disabled updates to Firefox to avoid stuff like that
00:27:58 <Cthulhux> you can write custom dialogs in HTML now, hooray. "dialogs", that is. no more access to firefox's own dialogs
00:28:16 <Cthulhux> also, AFAIR the API to execute external applications has been removed for good
00:28:43 <Cthulhux> things like opendownload² and vimperator are pretty much dead now.
00:28:51 <Cthulhux> i seriously consider going back to pale moon.
00:29:12 <zzo38> I think the Node.js API is better for executing external applications and files anyways
00:29:25 <zzo38> (better than XPCOM, I mean)
00:29:42 <wob_jonas> Cthulhux: oh, so that's why the open-as extension was broken!
00:30:00 <wob_jonas> I thought it was broken because they started to require that all extensions have to be signed or something like that
00:30:08 <zzo38> Another thing I have done is actually hexediting one of the .so files, in order to remove support for HSTS.
00:30:23 <Cthulhux> wob_jonas, maybe. i wrote the OpenDownload² extension and i was reported that it does almost the same... yup, not possible anymore
00:31:47 <zzo38> This is the document I wrote about how to make a better web browser program: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/web_browser
00:31:48 <wob_jonas> I noticed they broken some plugins, but I thought they broke them in some other way
00:32:54 <Cthulhux> something like vivaldi would be nice, but with a more flexible UI (= scriptable)
00:33:00 <Cthulhux> or qutebrowser with plugin support
00:34:15 <zzo38> What you will think of the ideas I wrote?
00:34:51 <Cthulhux> The user is assumed to be an expert at the computer << :DD lovely
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00:50:39 <zzo38> Do you have an objection not-generally, or any suggestion, question, comment, complaint, etc?
00:51:55 <Cthulhux> i'm positive that the only relevant rule is "assumed to be an expert" because that will inevitably lead to most of the other features.
00:53:23 <zzo38> Maybe it does; I don't quite know. But it does seem like it can be possible.
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01:01:51 <zzo38> Do you like farbfeld?
01:02:36 <pikhq> It's a fairly nice simple image format.
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01:02:52 <pikhq> Bit niche, but it's handy if you're wanting to just write simple image filters or something.
01:03:06 <pikhq> Think where you'd use PBM, only... it sucks less.
01:04:49 <zzo38> Yes, I think so too, actually. Have you written any image filters (or converters) for use with farbfeld?
01:05:28 <pikhq> A couple, though they were just toys.
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01:06:26 <zzo38> I have written many, and if you have any that I do not have, then it can be useful to add them too (or make a link)
01:09:07 <zzo38> Currently I have a NTSC decoder, but not a NTSC encoder. There is also no TV frame encoder/decoder.
01:09:35 <zzo38> (And it does not include a feature to find and use an existing colour burst signal to set the phase)
01:12:33 <zzo38> I think that the TV frame decoder program should take raw audio data (at a high but irrelevant sample rate, and also it isn't actually meant as audio) from stdin and produce a grey scale farbfeld picture on stdout, based on the retrace signals and so on that it finds, with specified framing options (such as in case you wish to include colour burst signal in output).
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01:36:25 <HackEgo> Sun Oct 1 00:36:23 UTC 2017
01:37:18 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is revolutionary
01:37:20 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is revolutionary
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01:43:33 <oerjan> are we allowing random dudes on the wiki now...
01:48:01 <fizzie> Huh, the introductions page is pretty long.
01:49:13 <int-e> oerjan: . o O ( do you like rotating passwords? )
01:54:43 <oerjan> int-e: only on HackEgo hth
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02:14:31 <FreeFull> Rotate your password 90° for an even hash
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02:42:34 <Taneb> Ugh, I fell asleep when I didn't mean to and now I am tired but wide awake
02:42:43 <Taneb> Also it's quarter to three in the morning
02:42:48 <Taneb> Not the most fun time to be up
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03:17:01 <shachaf> oerjan: did you play Flood
03:17:12 <shachaf> or are you antediluvian twh
03:22:18 <oerjan> the tatham game? i usually don't play it more than a couple times when i get around to it.
04:04:15 <zzo38> Now I wrote the program to convert farbfeld into XBM, too
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05:33:56 <zzo38> How do you classify the story of computer game: You are trying to go to Mornington Crescent but suddenly your wing broke and you fell down and got badly injured, and the only thing you have is a unloaded gun. But, this is ZZT, so there are magic diamonds that can help you!
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09:35:33 <Taneb> So, last night I was trying to implement System F in Agda
09:36:11 <Taneb> I'm not sure I've got it right though
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14:13:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jsteilberg * New user account
14:16:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53154&oldid=53153 * Jsteilberg * (+220) added my intro
14:16:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53155&oldid=53154 * Jsteilberg * (+13)
14:18:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53156&oldid=53155 * Jsteilberg * (+106) Is it four tildes to sign? Not really sure, sorry
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17:48:35 <zzo38> I remember once I used prompt().toString() in a bookmarklet code, I think (It seem strange, but it does work.)
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18:26:40 <int-e> arcane, maybe, esoteric, not.
18:27:13 <Cthulhux> a language where you can never be sure if your comparison is true or false is probably rather esoteric
18:27:45 <zzo38> Why are you not sure if the comparison is true or false? The rules for such thing in JavaScript look clearly enough to me
18:27:56 <int-e> Cthulhux: you must be talking about PHP
18:28:09 <Cthulhux> https://charlieharvey.org.uk/page/javascript_the_weird_parts
18:28:51 <int-e> bash: php: command not found
18:29:12 <int-e> <?php var_dump(md5('240610708') == md5('QNKCDZO')) ?>
18:30:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: php: not found
18:30:21 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'rm --help' for more information.
18:30:58 <int-e> please don't try to destroy the sandbox. it has some safety guards but they aren't perfect.
18:31:40 <Cthulhux> also: <int-e> bash: php: command not found << probably a bash issue. all of my powershell, ksh and tcsh systems know php!
18:31:47 <Cthulhux> have you considered to file a bug? :D
18:32:03 <int-e> `` echo -n 240610708 | md5sum -; echo -n QNKCDZO | md5sum -
18:32:04 <HackEgo> 0e462097431906509019562988736854 - \ 0e830400451993494058024219903391 -
18:32:38 <int-e> Cthulhux: nah I just don't use php at home :P
18:32:53 <int-e> if anything it's a feature
18:32:58 <Cthulhux> i randomly maintain my old wordpress plugins
18:33:40 <int-e> But somehow, I do have php at work.
18:36:25 <int-e> in any case this was one surprising pitfall of magical comparisons...
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19:56:41 <zzo38> I still think that some of the somewhat recent stuff in JavaScript is good stuff, such as typed arrays, generator functions, and arrow functions; I use that stuff.
19:57:18 <Cthulhux> javascript was never meant for actual programming
19:57:27 <Cthulhux> that becomes obvious these days
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19:59:02 <zzo38> Well, I think it works for that though (sometimes; it depends on the program)
19:59:27 <Cthulhux> sure, you can write everything in any programming language if you just try hard enough
20:06:00 <zzo38> I wrote a level editor for a DOS game once in JavaScript (mainly because the editor included with the game does not work correctly on DOSBOX, although on a true DOS computer it works OK)
20:06:25 <Cthulhux> i still can't recommend to do that
20:08:22 <zzo38> I do program in C as well
20:09:27 <Cthulhux> so do I. still less esoteric than javascript ^^
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20:17:53 <zzo38> This level editor is using SDL, although I also wrote a program in JavaScript to calculate the character points for a GURPS game, which only uses stdio
20:18:52 <zzo38> Do you know to play any GURPS game?
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21:32:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ivancr72]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53157&oldid=50934 * Ivancr72 * (-192)
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22:19:32 <zzo38> Is there any command in vim to allow syntax highlighting to be used on stuff that is displayed using the "lcs" option rather than only using SpecialKey and NonText highlighting?
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00:18:38 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. the fungot has left :(
00:24:35 <HackEgo> 1/2:betty crocker//Betty Crocker is a notorious gambler. \ manglophobia//Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms. \ nth//nth is not that helpful \ s//Esses are confusing. \ ocean//The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. Th
00:25:25 <HackEgo> 2/2:e Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
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00:37:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53158&oldid=52440 * Challenger5 * (+0)
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01:09:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53159&oldid=52467 * Challenger5 * (+762)
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01:42:21 <fungot> boily: dromiceiomimus, i have a great idea, dromiceiomimus: stories for women
01:48:07 <fizzie> Our internet left. (And then came back.)
01:48:25 <HackEgo> 834) <Vorpal> elliott, mostly I want something that takes zero effort to maintain and update once the initial setup is done. <elliott> okay well that is called not linux
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11:30:07 <b_jonas> Stupid thought: Windows renamed the Explorer program to File Explorer between Windows 7 and Windows 10, presumably because "Explorer" was too confusing: http://pbfcomics.com/comics/cave-explorer/
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11:49:28 <b_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/1897/ - they could outsource driving to twitch chat
11:50:32 <b_jonas> also, I brought up this point about gamifying the AI task we want to solve for a work project, but my supervisor said no.
11:55:27 <Vorpal> b_jonas: you mean like twitch plays pokemon?
11:56:50 <b_jonas> well, it's possible that twitch chat isn't the best format for getting the driving input, but it could still be turned to a game through internet and twitch would popularize the game
11:57:35 <b_jonas> twitch usually has a higher latency than you could get if you made a game that only people with a good enough net connection could play (or at least only people with a good net connection would give input that actually matters for driving the car)
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15:27:30 <b_jonas> Apparently there was a mass shooting with over 50 people dead yesterday in Las Vegas.
15:27:47 <b_jonas> no wait, not in Last Vegas, but somewher else in Nevada
15:49:53 <int-e> hehe. http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gzip/gzip-1.8.tar.xz
15:54:27 <b_jonas> int-e: they also have a tar.gz at the same place
15:55:41 <int-e> Which is also funny but in a different way.
15:56:15 <ais523> you'd think they'd have uncompressed source
15:56:20 <ais523> given the purpose of gzip
15:56:48 <ais523> this reminds me of the time I wrote a version of uudecode using only printable characters…
15:57:21 <ais523> (more specifically, I wrote an encoder similar to uuencode that produced executables as output; you could run this on uudecode itself in order to get uudecode onto a system that didn't have it)
15:57:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but on the other hand, you also can't bootstrap building a shell without having a shell, and can't build a C compiler if you don't have a C compiler, and compared to either of those, gzip is much more well spread
15:57:43 -!- danil has joined.
15:58:02 <ais523> b_jonas: C compilers should be provided as executables for that reason (and commonly are)
15:58:13 <ais523> in addition to the source form
15:58:18 <b_jonas> ais523: also, zlib is likely literally the software that's installed in the most places, and it's not that hard to write gzip from libc;
15:58:41 <ais523> building a shell with no shell could be tricky, perhaps you could do it via repeatedly rebooting the system and setting the compiler, linker, etc. as init
15:58:47 <b_jonas> plus there's also a very portable gzip decompressor at https://pts.50.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz
15:59:01 <b_jonas> which is much more limited and slower than gzip, but still works
15:59:15 <ais523> (note that this is pretty much just theoretical; you're unlikely to have a working compiler and linker but no working shell)
15:59:18 <b_jonas> and you're most likely to have a decompressor that understands gzip than a program that understands that version of tar too
15:59:44 <b_jonas> ais523: people have problems with building very portable programs on windows because it's hard to find a suitable shell to run the build scripts
15:59:53 <b_jonas> this is for C programs that are very portable so they're easy to build
15:59:57 <ais523> Windows has a working shell, though (two, in fact)
16:00:08 <ais523> it's just that the programs in question have build scripts written for a different dialect of shellscript
16:00:10 <b_jonas> you also need a gnu make, but gnu make provides a shell script to build itself without needing any make first
16:00:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's why I say a posix-like shell
16:00:28 <danil> whatcha talking about?
16:00:30 <ais523> besides you could probably just build it with aimake
16:00:32 <b_jonas> not specifically bash, but nothing windows-like
16:00:43 <ais523> danil: trying to build build tools without having the build tool itself in advance
16:01:35 <b_jonas> what I don't like is how 7-zip now only distributes the latest versions of its source code in 7-zip and self-extracting 7-zip formats, and the self-extracting part runs only on windows (you can extract it with a 7zip program anywhere),
16:01:36 <ais523> I guess an OS missing build tools is something of an esolang in its own right
16:01:37 -!- sleffy has joined.
16:01:42 <ais523> it has commands but not the ones you actually wanted
16:01:53 <b_jonas> despite that the source code has the command-line version that works on unices too
16:02:02 <danil> at least 7zip works
16:02:05 <b_jonas> in previous versions, they used to distribute the source code as bzip2
16:02:25 <ais523> I assume Debian still distributes it as xz or something?
16:02:40 <b_jonas> ais523: probably something like that, I don't know how they compress their programs
16:02:48 <danil> RAR and other zip utilities understand 7zip format
16:02:50 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:03:24 <b_jonas> also, if anyone wants, I can give you all parts of 7-zip packed in whatever reasonable format you want
16:03:33 <b_jonas> I actually have zip versions of some of what they distrubute
16:03:43 <ais523> what about unreasonable formats?
16:04:00 <b_jonas> those are the windows executables, I keep them just in case
16:04:08 <b_jonas> they should distribute the source code in zip format
16:04:44 <ais523> clearly it should be distributed as an uncompressed shar
16:04:45 <b_jonas> ais523: I can provide some unreasonable formats too, but not just any unreasonable format
16:04:46 <ais523> that was reasonable once
16:04:51 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
16:04:55 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure I used it for something as a joke at one point, possibly C-INTERCAL
16:05:11 <ais523> oh, hmm, maybe I posted a new version of C-INTERCAL to Usenet directly for tradition's sake?
16:05:19 <ais523> it's the sort of thing I'd do
16:05:36 -!- danil has joined.
16:06:11 <danil> 7ZIP works on my Ubuntu.
16:07:11 <danil> BTW, whats a 'hypercide'
16:07:33 <danil> Sorry, BTW whats a 'hypercube'
16:07:35 <b_jonas> danil: yes, that's p7zip, 7zip's own command-line port to linux, which works almost the same as their windows command-line version
16:07:44 <b_jonas> works more or less decently but with a horrible user interface
16:07:52 <ais523> danil: a hypercube is a 4 (or more)-dimensional generalization of a cube
16:07:52 <b_jonas> developped by the 7-zip devs themselves
16:08:12 <ais523> you can think of a cube as being two squares, with corresponding corners connected
16:08:25 <ais523> that's fairly easy to visualise because humans are used to both 2D and 3D
16:08:34 <danil> 'Welcome to the international hyper cube for esoteric languages'
16:08:37 <ais523> but the two squares are in separate 2D planes
16:09:10 <ais523> so a hypercube is that a dimension higher up; you get two 3D cubes in separate 3D spaces (think parallel universes or the like), and then connect all the corners
16:09:13 <b_jonas> they provide the source code of the unix command-line version at least as bz2
16:09:16 <ais523> err, corresponding corners
16:09:19 <ais523> also the channel topic here is rarely serious
16:09:24 <b_jonas> it's only the windows version that they only provide as 7zip and msi currently
16:09:27 <ais523> I think someone wrote "hypercube" rather than "IRC channel" as a joke
16:09:33 <danil> OK, this is NOT a geometry IRC channel!
16:09:50 <b_jonas> they should provide the standalone windows command-line version as a zip, so you can easily use it without admin privilages
16:09:54 <b_jonas> it's not as bad as I thought
16:09:54 <danil> No one understands IRC jokes.
16:09:56 <ais523> the standard topic is something along the lines of "welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment"
16:10:29 <ais523> but people have a tendency to change it due to messing around and not enough people are inclined to change it back
16:10:41 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
16:10:51 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
16:10:56 <b_jonas> ais523: it seems like 7-zip is careful, they made sure the source code for the unix command-line version is written in C (not C++) and all source files have 8.3 filenames, so I can provide it in quite a few unreasonable formats of old dos compressor programs nobody even remembers anymore
16:11:05 <danil> what's 7zip got to do with build tools. 7zip's a decompressor
16:11:05 <ais523> I don't think we've had this one before and it's actually /more/ precise than the usual topic
16:11:21 <ais523> danil: if the source code you're trying to build is in .7z format
16:12:05 <b_jonas> ais523: I would like to note that xz actually distributes pre-built DOS binaries though
16:12:10 <danil> I never actually looked at 7zips source code
16:12:31 <b_jonas> danil: this channel can drift to off-topic sometimes
16:12:32 <ais523> how much demand is there for DOS binaries of NetHack, btw?
16:12:43 <ais523> our current DOS maintainer has disappeared and I'm wondering if I should try to take over
16:13:11 <ais523> but yes, I stayed away from this channel for months because I disliked how offtopic it had gotten
16:13:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know. I have a custom DOS binary for the joe-editor that I can distribute. It's not perfect, but I used it for text editing a lot.
16:13:18 <ais523> danil: computer game, famous for being old and portable
16:13:32 <b_jonas> ais523: it's famous for being portable? I didn't know of that
16:13:45 <ais523> b_jonas: well it runs on a huge number of platforms, especially if you take older versions
16:13:46 <danil> ais523: I dont understand computer games
16:14:04 <ais523> people who have an old computer with an unusual OS and want to play a game on it often send us questions about what version they can run on it
16:14:19 <b_jonas> I thought old programs from back then just (a) had to do that out of necessity, and (b) are automatically portable because everyone implements the few thousand functions those old programs used from the old BSD libc or whatever, including crazy ones like index.
16:14:22 <ais523> danil: they're basically a way to practice skills in a controlled environment, while having fun
16:14:46 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, they often send you (as in the devteam) questions, really?
16:14:48 <ais523> some games train skills like reaction time and coordination, others about more mental skills like planning andp uzzle solving
16:15:02 <b_jonas> if they do, then yes, it is notable for being portable
16:15:17 <danil> I mean, i dont put my head into the games.(And in the cloud)
16:15:19 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, one of our most common sorts of email (that isn't a bug report) is "can you recommend a version of NetHack that I can play on my «insert old computer system here»?"
16:15:41 <danil> Are you a NetHack dev?
16:15:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I guess that could be true, after all, someone wondered about a port to that old nokia personal organizer
16:16:21 <danil> How is that linked with esoteric programming languages?
16:17:06 <b_jonas> danil: porting programs to old systems is an eso-programming topic already, but this channel often drifts off-topic too
16:17:11 <ais523> well, the release of NetHack 3.6.0 only came about as a consequence of the existence of INTERCAL
16:17:14 <ais523> but that's mostly just coincidence
16:17:27 <danil> Yep. This channel gets offtopic all the time
16:18:02 <ais523> and it was a fairly long dependency chain (although still a clear one that's possible to trace)
16:18:03 <danil> the esoteric title changed!
16:18:32 <ais523> those things are fairly easy to change
16:18:41 <danil> Did you change it?
16:18:58 <b_jonas> danil: also, if you look at nethack's source code in detail, you'll see it looks sort of like eso-programming now, even though the practices it uses made sense back when it was developped, and it's a lot of work to rewrite it.
16:19:03 <ais523> it'll probably be changed to something else by tomorrow, though, knowing this channel
16:19:20 <ais523> b_jonas: IMO it'd be great if the game itself were Turing-complete, but I'm fairly sure it isn't
16:19:53 <int-e> fungot: say something?
16:19:53 <fungot> int-e: you look: poorly drawn
16:20:01 <int-e> fungot: thanks so much
16:20:01 <fungot> int-e: a new day dawns...
16:20:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:20:20 <ais523> fungot is a bot written in Befunge
16:20:20 <fungot> ais523: all that means is that if a building? it is the east, and plagiarism is
16:20:42 <ais523> it has a few functions, one of the main ones is trying and failing to say something intelligible in response to people mentioning its name
16:20:44 <danil> fungot: say your source code out loud
16:20:44 <fungot> danil: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle.
16:20:58 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:21:13 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:21:17 <ais523> danil: fungot doesn't actually know English, so you have to express it in a language fungot does understand
16:21:17 <fungot> ais523: t-rex, i left a party early to go have a bath, and there i don't feel like i look down and notice you're not there
16:21:47 <danil> fungot: What language do you speak?
16:21:47 <fungot> danil: to turn back time and live again with your sweetie! i'm sure one will look for them, i have come up with a " i have lots, probably! if not, we can make the cutest cards ever for a series of puns.
16:22:11 <danil> Oh, a buisness deal with a bot!?
16:22:16 <ais523> ^ul (Underload! ):*:*:*S
16:22:16 <fungot> Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload!
16:22:27 <ais523> also brainfuck but it's harder to write programs in that quickly
16:22:38 <ais523> `! bf_txtgen brainfuck!
16:22:42 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
16:22:44 <HackEgo> 105 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>>.<++.>-.>+++++++.+++++.<+++++.<+++.>---.>---.>+++++.-. [171]
16:23:17 <ais523> hackego is our main esoteric programming language interpretation bot
16:23:28 <ais523> although people normally use it for messing around rather than for actually running esolang programs
16:23:38 <b_jonas> I wanted to ask some vague questions about esoteric language development, in a rubber duck style.
16:23:39 <danil> How do you use him?
16:23:55 <ais523> to interpret an esolang, you type `! then the language name then the program
16:24:29 <fungot> Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!
16:24:58 <ais523> +- doesn't produce any visible output
16:25:06 <ais523> also you'd need `! brainfuck +-
16:25:13 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/brainfuck: not found
16:25:17 <ais523> err, need a cell width
16:26:02 <b_jonas> Suppose I have a simple core esoteric language, which doesn't have much IO facilities, plus a standard library, which can have optional parts, for doing IO. The library has an interface that matches the language features, so you could give the same interface as the library functions have if you wrote those functions in that language based implemented from any reasonable other IO facilities, built-in or otherwise.
16:26:25 <b_jonas> Sort of like how C has a core language with not much IO facilities, plus a standard library, only this one is esoteric.
16:26:34 <ais523> `! bf8 +++++[->++++++<]>++[.+]
16:26:34 <HackEgo> â !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
16:26:46 <danil> What was that for?
16:26:55 <ais523> danil: trying to produce useful output with a fairly short program
16:27:03 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:27:11 <b_jonas> The core language is rather simple, which I like. Would it ruin the beauty of that simplicity to provide such an IO library?
16:27:30 <ais523> although I don't get why it doesn't start with space
16:27:56 <ais523> it starts with <HackEgo> â !" for me
16:28:07 <ais523> anyway, I have a meeting now, bye everyone
16:28:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: meeting).
16:28:19 <b_jonas> ais523: right, there's a space after the header hackego always ouputs to avoid triggering other bots
16:29:35 <danil> Now what programming language fungot uses?
16:29:35 <fungot> danil: and in the book, i tell people that the key to a good diet! she never did in the past. now i'll have that one, the one on a boat can float along for years without crew or sails or a working knowledge, you can never again be able to look in a mirror
16:29:58 <danil> hey, how do i disable f*****
16:30:22 <b_jonas> danil: it's implemented in befunge. you can write macros for it in brainfuck and underload.
16:32:00 <danil> I mean, who made fungoat
16:32:14 <int-e> fungot cannot be disabled, but you can sneak invisible characters in and confuse it.
16:32:40 <int-e> it's fizzie's creation I believe.
16:33:01 <int-e> fungоt <- unicode is also an option
16:33:07 <danil> how many bots are their?
16:33:14 <HackEgo> [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O]
16:33:40 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
16:33:46 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:33:55 <int-e> not all of those are still here
16:34:19 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
16:35:22 <lambdabot> [23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,...
16:35:29 -!- jaboja has joined.
16:35:41 <lambdabot> [24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,...
16:36:04 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
16:36:06 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
16:36:28 <danil> what programming language is THAT!
16:37:17 <danil> ohhhhhh! Why Haskell in esolang?
16:37:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 021520Z 26007KT 9999 -RA FEW080 SCT100 BKN150 17/11 Q1019 NOSIG
16:37:43 <int-e> this, and it relays messages
16:37:56 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
16:38:31 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR is more useful, I guess
16:38:50 <int-e> you need to provide an ICAO airport code
16:39:22 <danil> BTW, WHAT DID @METAR LOWI DO?
16:39:30 <lambdabot> KPIR 021453Z AUTO 31003KT 10SM CLR 11/08 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP108 T01060078 51012
16:39:54 <danil> WHY IS METAR NEEDED?
16:40:07 <int-e> because everybody likes talking about the weather.
16:40:23 <danil> what does that message do?
16:41:00 <int-e> icao has four letter codes.
16:41:41 <int-e> For most US airpoirts it's K followed by the IATA code, I believe.
16:41:55 <lambdabot> KLAS 021456Z 36015G25KT 330V030 10SM FEW180 20/M06 A2980 RMK AO2 SLP071 T02001061 51028
16:42:22 <danil> what does the above message from lambdabot mean?
16:42:54 <lambdabot> KRAP 021452Z 32005KT 10SM SCT039 BKN046 08/05 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP132 T00780050 53014
16:43:07 <int-e> it's 20°C, very dry, windy...
16:43:26 <danil> How did you parse it?
16:43:34 <int-e> The 20/M06 part is temperature and dewpoint.
16:43:42 <int-e> anyway, see the METAR wikipedia page
16:44:05 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
16:44:22 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
16:45:25 <danil> quit: reading longggggg wiki page
16:45:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:46:27 <danil> whats the code for Russia?
16:48:11 <lambdabot> UCFM 021530Z 12005MPS 8000 BKN066CB 11/07 Q1011 R26/CLRD70 NOSIG
16:50:43 <danil> tHAT IS A AIRPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16:52:12 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
16:53:03 -!- danil has joined.
16:54:04 <lambdabot> UUEE 021530Z 07002MPS 9999 OVC017 04/02 Q1032 R24R/CLRD62 R24L/CLRD62 NOSIG
17:05:22 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
17:07:30 -!- `^_^v has joined.
17:13:15 -!- Antoxyde has joined.
17:19:30 <fungot> danil: in a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way? i could have this hyper-evolved speaking that could convince anyone to do whatever i want!!
17:19:41 <fungot> danil: hey, i have unfocused, but at the end, to ask me what my favourite suffix.
17:23:25 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:23:27 <danil> fungot: say something?
17:24:06 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
17:26:30 <lambdabot> KRAP 021552Z 35007KT 10SM FEW046 08/05 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP133 T00780050
17:30:41 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
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17:35:11 <Vorpal> PDFs from professional organizations that still read "Microsoft Word - whatever.doc" as their title... Why
17:39:08 <fizzie> You want a S in that ul.
17:39:28 <fizzie> There's also a thing where it only answers one person at most three or four times in a row, to stop loops.
17:41:20 <Vorpal> fizzie: how are you? any new panoramas?
17:42:49 <Vorpal> fizzie: I have taken some (using the built in function on the phone) but I have not yet uploaded it anywhere
17:43:56 <danil> whatcha talkin` about
17:44:01 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:45:11 <j-bot> danil: |value error: hi
17:45:56 <j-bot> danil: |value error: help
17:46:22 <Vorpal> fizzie: Apparently the jpeg is 47 MB huh
17:46:44 <danil> What are you talking about?
17:47:02 <j-bot> danil: |syntax error
17:49:43 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
17:49:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Mm, probably, but I don't have a list anywhere. I've been mostly defaulting to using the phone's built-in thing as well. I had that home-built panorama head for the previous Sorta-Real Camera, but it doesn't fit the Real Camera.
17:50:26 <Vorpal> fizzie: I went to a nature reserve that was a previous forest fire area (big forest fire) a couple of years ago. Very different nature
17:50:38 <Vorpal> Should upload some pictures somewhere. Dropbox may work
17:50:44 -!- danil has joined.
17:51:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: We went to Scotland again this summer, I'm sure I took some photos there.
17:51:23 <danil> j-bot: 1112234578*11111111
17:51:24 <j-bot> danil: 12358161854196158
17:52:53 <danil> Is'nt this channel offtop
17:53:45 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit).
17:54:46 <Vorpal> fizzie: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ie7mmypeovlr1n2/AADV2B4P4Kd66X_HXXbDI-T2a?dl=0
17:55:22 -!- danil has joined.
17:56:16 <Vorpal> fizzie: hopefully I shared in the proper way. I think dropbox redesigned the interface or something, doesn't work like I remember it
17:56:54 <danil> I have a little ontop question
17:57:02 <Vorpal> danil: sure, what is it?
17:57:21 <danil> Why are esolangs needed?#
17:57:40 <Vorpal> danil: why is any hobby needed?
17:58:11 <danil> so esolangs are hobbies. I met a dev who used esolangs to get money.
17:58:43 <Vorpal> I think they can be educational as well
17:59:19 <Vorpal> You can learn about computing in the restricted domain of esolangs. Or learn to write a compiler more easily than for a real language.
17:59:37 -!- imode has joined.
18:00:03 <danil> So, his manager gave him Money per line of code. To make a simple program he got a esolang which a) obfuscated his code b) was longer then even java
18:00:32 <fizzie> Sounds to me you don't need a different language for that.
18:00:38 <fizzie> Anyway, by one of the popular definitions, if practical use is the primary intention, it isn't an esolang.
18:00:50 <fizzie> How our wiki puts it is: "An esoteric programming language, or esolang, is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use."
18:00:53 <Vorpal> huh. Well obviously his manager doesn't understand good coding practice. Also that is a shitty way to get paid
18:00:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Whatever you did seems to have worked. Looks nice. Not that different from some parts of Finland.
18:01:09 <Vorpal> fizzie: all the trees are dead. Forest fire.
18:01:23 <danil> Acttually, a Brainf interpreter is easier to make than a BASIC one
18:01:27 <Vorpal> fizzie: it is not that they lost their leaves for the winter
18:01:52 <Vorpal> fizzie: the landscape felt kind of spooky. Lots of signs about increased risk of falling trees and such.
18:02:13 <Vorpal> danil: indeed! so good for education to learn the basics of interpreter writing
18:02:26 <Vorpal> optimising brainfuck compiler is quite interesting too
18:02:29 <zzo38> I would prefer to be the payment by a fixed amount, regardless of how large it is or how much time it takes, assuming the program is good.
18:02:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
18:03:28 <danil> Well, what do Water Supply managers now about Coding & computers. A misterious box with weird lamps.
18:04:22 <danil> BTW, it was a anecdote from a guy's forum. Could be true, though
18:04:33 <Vorpal> I prefer the way I work. Paid a fixed monthly salary and having a reasonably secure job (i.e. not just for a single project)
18:04:58 <danil> I also. Only i am a student not a adult.
18:05:38 <zzo38> I think pay one fixed amount per project is better, rather than per month or per hour or whatever
18:06:03 <danil> Both of you are right i n some way
18:06:14 <Vorpal> zzo38: only if you work on a project basis, as supposed to continued development of a large product
18:07:00 <danil> Vorpal: told you this channel goes offtop
18:07:29 <Vorpal> danil: yes I only said: danil> Is'nt this channel offtop <danil> always <Vorpal> not always
18:07:41 <Vorpal> I never disputed "sometimes" or even "often"
18:08:51 <Vorpal> danil: mind you, it isn't as if we are interrupting some on topic stuff that is going on at the same time
18:09:45 <danil> Sorry. I always do that
18:10:10 <danil> Ahhhh! My IRC clien is slowwing down....
18:10:49 <danil> Na, Buggy Linux + Buggy IRC
18:11:26 <Vorpal> using ubuntu atm. Ubuntu LTS
18:11:30 <Vorpal> on a core 2 duo laptop
18:11:42 <Vorpal> upgraded it with an SSD, but that is it
18:11:47 <danil> Ubuntu 17.04 Acer Aspire V5
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18:12:05 <danil> I hate LTS. I'm bleeding edge
18:12:09 <Vorpal> danil: 16.04 LTS, Thinkpad from ~2009
18:12:25 <Vorpal> oh you would hate what I run on my desktop
18:12:47 <Vorpal> also you should totally use arch or gentoo then. Probably arch
18:13:07 <Vorpal> "what" in response to what?
18:13:22 <danil> I use OpenSuSe(12) on my Desktop
18:13:43 <danil> Vorpal: Are you a GPL activist?
18:13:53 <Vorpal> yeah I like debian stable and ubuntu lts. Means it just works except when I upgrade every two or three years.
18:14:10 <Vorpal> no, but I used GPL for my own befunge-98 interpreters
18:14:20 <danil> LTS for me is too stable...
18:14:28 <danil> I like crashing Linux
18:14:39 <Vorpal> actually this LTS has some annoying bugs with the old intel graphics of this laptop
18:15:01 <Vorpal> specifically the on resume from suspend chrome starts flickering black. Firefox is fine
18:15:04 <danil> I'm a Beer Liscence Activist. Like BSD liscense also
18:15:41 <Vorpal> meh, they are just browsers. As long as they can run scriptmonkey and stylish, whatever
18:16:08 <Vorpal> (greasemonkey/tampermonkey, depending on browser)
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18:16:54 <danil> Yeah. Suppose your right. I Just installed a new IRC client called Polari. Everything does not work
18:17:08 <Vorpal> danil: I use hexchat. I used xchat before that.
18:17:39 <Vorpal> I don't want to spend all my time making computers work. I rather be productive with them.
18:18:00 <danil> I couldnt configure hexchat. It was confusing. I now just use the Ubuntu Chat app
18:18:30 <danil> Ubuntu Chat just works
18:18:53 <Vorpal> ubuntu chat? what is that?
18:19:30 <Vorpal> well duh, but what is it based on? Pidgin?
18:19:43 <Vorpal> Mind you I run ubuntu and debian with MATE. Not a fan of the default ubuntu unity thing
18:19:59 <Vorpal> thought ubuntu bundled pidgin
18:20:06 <danil> Nah. More quicker and agile. I am using KDE with Unity apps
18:20:50 <danil> Chat is quicker than a pidgeon. Pidgeon's are slow and dangerous
18:20:57 <Vorpal> eh, this hardware couldn't handle that
18:21:23 <Vorpal> I actually run cinamon on my desktop, instead of mate. Switched when upgrading debian most recently
18:21:30 <danil> I just installed kubuntu-desktop through terminal.#
18:21:52 <danil> I am a KDE fanatic.
18:22:03 <Vorpal> danil: the GUI is just a terminal multiplexer for most of what I do.
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18:22:46 <\oren\_> Vorpal: that's why I use the most minimal (in terms of resources) gui i can
18:23:22 <Vorpal> \oren\_: there are enough GUI programs I use. Image editing, web browser, IDEs. That sort of stuff.
18:23:32 <FreeFull> i3wm with a random assortment of programs
18:24:40 <Vorpal> could probably work just as well as MATE, LXDE or XFCE yes
18:25:01 <Vorpal> Just the inertia of learning a new system, when the keyboard shortcuts are ingrained in your fingers
18:25:02 <\oren\_> for a while i was using two computers. one that didn't run a desktop at all, which i dialed into from the other, which was running puppy linux
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18:28:09 <danil> Everyone calls me a greybeard
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18:29:15 <\oren\_> danil: being a greybeard pays well doesn't it
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18:54:19 <danil> THE GUI IS A TERMMINAL MULTIPLEXER
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19:08:48 <Cthulhux> <\oren\_> Vorpal: that's why I use the most minimal (in terms of resources) gui i can << twm?
19:09:03 <Cthulhux> because everything other than twm uses more resources.
19:09:41 * Cthulhux is still considering between stumpwm and windowmaker
19:10:03 <Cthulhux> those gnome wannabes are too apple'ish
19:10:41 <Cthulhux> also: <danil> Ahhhh! My IRC clien is slowwing down.... < write your own one :D
19:10:56 <int-e> have you considered running without a window manager...
19:11:12 <int-e> (no, I'm not really serious, but it does seem to be a valid question ;-) )
19:12:28 <int-e> Cthulhux: you can run X without a window manager
19:12:35 <myname> i should look up if i3wm uses more ressources than herbstluft
19:12:36 <int-e> you'll end up placing everything manually though
19:13:01 <int-e> because, uh, placing and optionally decorating windows is one of the main tasks of window managers.
19:13:03 <Cthulhux> i3wm *does* use more resources than twm.
19:13:52 <int-e> and by "placing manually" I mean passing -geometry options to everything.
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19:41:31 <zzo38> I currently use i3wm, but may later write my own.
19:45:15 <Cthulhux> i mean, you'll learn a lot, but: don't. :D there are too many WMs already.
19:45:47 <Cthulhux> (i miss the good old times when everyone wrote text editors, not wms..)
19:48:37 <\oren\_> speaking of which I need to finish my text editor
19:50:30 <Cthulhux> i need to finish my xmarks alternative. and my gopher client. and my irc client. and my text editor. and my reddit bot. and my two file managers.
19:51:08 <int-e> I'm pretty sure zzo38 is winning the local vapourware contest.
19:51:44 <Cthulhux> you don't know the list of projects i haven't even STARTED yet!
19:52:05 <int-e> Then again, maybe Feather counts for a dozen ordinary vapourware projects.
19:53:20 <ais523> int-e: it's in an earlier stage than vapourware
19:53:34 <ais523> vapourware normally has the advantage of at least being known to be theoretically possible to write
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20:13:07 <zzo38> No, I might write a window manager. That way I can learn how it is working, but also just to put the stuff I wanted (I don't need all of the features of i3, and is also missing some thing I wanted), but also just in case I want to do some day, I might or might not I don't know. You can use X without a window manager, which can be useful if you only need one window, I suppose.
20:13:48 <zzo38> What is your xmarks alternative, gopher client, irc client, and others, aredoing what? I wrote a IRC client already and more than one gopher client
20:14:07 <zzo38> (What is xmarks anyways?)
20:15:52 <int-e> *googles* a bookmarks manager with synchronisation facilities?
20:19:32 <zzo38> Anyways I do not use the i3 menu, nor the status bar it comes with; I wrote my own status bar program for use with i3bar, and just use the command shell in xterm if I want to start other programs, so xterm and xrefresh are the only programs I have added keybindings to start them.
20:20:17 <Cthulhux> int-e: yup, but without restriction to one browser
20:20:34 <Cthulhux> synching the built-in browser bookmarks
20:20:42 <Cthulhux> nothing else does that and xmarks sucks
20:21:04 <zzo38> I also added a program to display the process ID and window ID if the title is clicked with the right button.
20:21:39 <zzo38> Cthulhux: Well, the i3 menu and i3status are separate programs from i3wm anyways, and I have not installed those other programs. Mainly it is just the closest thing to what I wanted and is suitable for now.
20:23:37 <zzo38> To use bookmarks outside of the browser though I just wrote a shell script which executes SQL queries to do it, although only with one browser; still, with the same SQL queries I can add them to work with Lynx and so on too rather than only Firefox if I wanted to, easily enough.
20:25:40 <zzo38> Do you think this look good enough to you or don't?
20:26:12 <zzo38> Why do you need two file managers?
20:27:10 <Cthulhux> one as a clone of windows 3.11's good old fileman.exe (it was better than young people think)
20:27:20 <Cthulhux> one as a better tc/mc/far manager/whatever
20:28:10 <zzo38> Do you mean like a orthodox file manager?
20:28:57 <Cthulhux> i mainly use them on windows, but the one of my choice (currently, speedcommander) still lacks some features *for me*
20:29:24 <ais523> I hardly used fileman.exe when I used Windows 3.1
20:29:31 <ais523> pretty much just for creating directories
20:29:39 <Cthulhux> i used fileman a lot on windows 9x
20:29:41 <ais523> nearly always I opened files via File|Open in the program that read them
20:30:01 <Cthulhux> it actually still would be, if win10 would support 16-bit applications
20:30:33 <zzo38> I use Linux and do not use any file manager, since, can just using the command shell
20:30:34 <Cthulhux> something microsoft thought nobody would want anymore
20:30:56 <int-e> hmm wasn't it basically a graphical norton commander
20:30:59 <Cthulhux> i can use "the command shell" on windows too (the powershell is actually rather handy), but i don't want to :D
20:31:57 <Cthulhux> int-e: http://www.mi.uni-koeln.de/c/mirror/www.igd.fhg.de/www/grz/mswin/awfntdev/fileman.gif
20:32:14 <Cthulhux> no bullshit, just file management.
20:32:20 <ais523> zzo38: I normally use a shell on Linux for file management
20:32:29 <Cthulhux> ok, and a WinZip plugin on the screenshot
20:32:31 <ais523> sometimes I use Nautilus, though
20:33:03 <int-e> Cthulhux: oh I see, it had the tree part... yes I miss that as well.
20:33:16 <int-e> . o O ( it's still there in regedit ;-) )
20:33:34 <Cthulhux> i have a half-working version ready
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20:34:17 <Cthulhux> (ha, on-topic! because who still uses delphi, except me?)
20:34:45 <zzo38> I sometimes use QuickBASIC for writing DOS programs
20:35:38 <zzo38> (Including MIXPC, which is mentioned on the esolang wiki article about MIX (Knuth), because it is an implementation of that instruction set.)
20:36:02 <int-e> why did they discontinue borland pascal for windows anyway?
20:37:27 <zzo38> Is there a free compiler for DOS that will work in real mode?
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20:40:53 <zzo38> I put on my computer on the status bar, the number of email messages, the system load, the memory usage, and the current date/time. I did not put temperature because I do not have a driver for it.
20:41:15 <zzo38> Cthulhux: BASIC, although a different programming language might do too
20:41:16 <ais523> zzo38: do you want the compiler itself to run on DOS real mode? or do you want its /output/ to run on DOS real mode?
20:41:53 <zzo38> ais523: The output program. I would want the compiler also to, but if it doesn't, it could be OK as long as the output program does run on real mode.
20:43:23 <int-e> developing programs under DOS, now there's a thing I do not miss a lot
20:43:28 <ais523> zzo38: "bruce's C compiler" runs on Linux and produces 8086 real mode output, and has an option to produce it as a DOS .COM file
20:43:41 <ais523> it probably runs on other OSes too (maybe even DOS itself)
20:43:55 <int-e> (because every second programming error ended up requiring a hard reboot)
20:44:08 <ais523> in terms of compilers that run on DOS real mode themselves, I'm not sure if there are any FLOSS compilers, but shareware compilers were fairly common back then
20:44:25 <ais523> IIRC Borland made a few
20:44:28 <zzo38> Well, DOS starts up much faster than Linux or Windows, so a hard reboot does not take as long
20:45:38 <zzo38> I once installed FreeDOS and a database program on a computer, and when the CRT was turned on at the same time as turning on the computer, the database program is already ready by the time the picture is visible.
20:48:10 <ais523> this computer (running Linux) shuts down really fast, when I reboot the shutdown is faster than the "BIOS" (actually EFI) loading screen (which shows before the bootloader even starts running)
20:48:55 <Cthulhux> a computer running linux that can be shut down?
20:49:17 <ais523> nah, it has systemd, it just somehow seems to actually work in this configuration
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21:05:39 <Cthulhux> tried _working_ operating systems, like virtually any non-linux?
21:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry i didn't realise you were that much of a hipster
21:06:45 <Cthulhux> being called a "hipster" by people using a 2% desktop system
21:07:12 <Phantom_Hoover> well if you mean windows or mac os then yeah obviously i've tried those
21:07:34 * Cthulhux uses windows, openbsd and freebsd
21:08:15 <Cthulhux> also, playstations use freebsd as well
21:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> because as we all know it's impossible to run linux without systemd
21:08:52 <Cthulhux> poettering shitware is slowly infecting every inch of the gnu/linux fail ecosystem
21:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean, everything you can run on freebsd you can run on linux
21:09:15 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> i mean, everything you can run on freebsd you can run on linux << really? ZFS as a root file system? :P
21:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> right so explain to me the desktop environment you're using on freebsd that doesn't run on linux
21:09:50 <Cthulhux> zfs *is* a game-changer. (ok, maybe not on a desktop)
21:10:24 <Cthulhux> nothing you do in freebsd will ever require any poettering shitware
21:10:32 <Cthulhux> enjoy the remaining three hipster distros
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21:11:08 <Cthulhux> how large is the userbase of non-poettering shitware distros (no udev, no pulseaudio, no shitstemd)?
21:11:48 <Cthulhux> a large part of the web traffic is routed through freebsd (netflix and whatsapp)
21:12:23 <Cthulhux> the main point is still: your fail os fails to shutdown
21:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> which is, lol you're 13 and think os pissing contests are cool
21:13:02 <Cthulhux> your actual point being "hurr durr i COULD use a working os but NOBODY USES BSD"
21:13:23 <Cthulhux> because working computers are sooooo 90s.
21:14:01 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> pfffthahahaha
21:14:02 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> which is, lol you're 13
21:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i think poettering's a cunt too but i don't go around embarrassing myself by blabbering about 'shitstemd'
21:14:38 <Cthulhux> yup, you try to bash working software instead
21:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i've only used pulse on this machine to run unity games after they fucked up and made them require pulse
21:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> presumably you couldn't run those games on freebsd at all, idk
21:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> escaping lennart's bullshit would be nice but not worth rebooting to windows every time i wanted to play anything
21:19:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think the shutdown's even really broken, there's some sort of transient permissioning problem
21:20:21 <\oren\_> Phantom_Hoover: why not just use separate linux and windows computers
21:20:49 <\oren\_> arms not strong enough to carry two laptops?
21:21:38 <\oren\_> Phantom_Hoover: then why not two
21:23:24 <Phantom_Hoover> definitely, i barely have room for a tiny desk in this room let alone two towers
21:24:23 <\oren\_> Cthulhux: well he could have a switch that changes which computer the peripherals are connected to, my dad had one back in the day
21:25:47 <\oren\_> it had two outlets for mouse, keyboard and screen, and one input, and a big dial that rotated between 1 and 2
21:26:04 <Cthulhux> that still requires room for a second computer
21:26:49 <\oren\_> Cthulhux: I guess but it doesn't need room for a second desk at least
21:28:05 <\oren\_> actually would such a switch thing even work with complex protocols of USB and hdmi? maybe it would have to have a microprocessor in it
21:28:45 <\oren\_> back in the 90's we used PS/2 and VGA connecters
21:33:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\_: the search term is "KVM switch", which stands for "keyboard, video, mouse" (in a strange order)
21:34:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: presumably it was just a KV switch originally, then mice became popular so were added onto the end
21:35:36 <wob_jonas> \oren\_: these days instead people connect the keyboard, mouse and video outlets to small computers with microprocessors that give you a remote control ability through the internet for administrative access. remote management console or something. sometimes they also add a relay to power cycle the machine.
21:36:13 <fizzie> I used to use an external HDMI switch when I had a monitor without enough inputs. I don't think it had much of smarts, though.
21:36:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: maybe, but the mouse was already popular 25 years ago for non-game computers, and you don't use a KVM switch for a game console, so I'm not sure if that ever really happened
21:37:11 <wob_jonas> sometimes you get away without a switch by connecting two computers to a monitor through two different types of inputs. with like four different types of video input these days (VGA, DVI, HDMI, displayport), that's often easy by accident.
21:37:26 <wob_jonas> and having two keyboards (or just using the built-in keyboard of a notebook) is easier than having two monitors
21:38:24 <wob_jonas> but then, these days some people also just use multiple monitors
21:39:18 <fizzie> Many monitors have more than one of a given type of input, at least if you go a bit fancier. This one has 2x HDMI, one DP and one mini-DP.
21:39:24 <wob_jonas> my father, for example, is a sysadmin, so sometimes he works on his own notebook plus two other local computers at the same time to install stuff, in that case he can connect two computers to two monitors and either use only the built-in small display of the notebook or connect using two different types of input
21:39:46 <wob_jonas> fizzie: can it actually switch between those two HDMI by some button presses on the monitor?
21:40:12 <wob_jonas> I didn't know that was common on monitors
21:40:15 <fizzie> It's even got two soft keys you can bind to a specific action, including a specific output.
21:40:23 <fizzie> It really made that HDMI switch redundant.
21:40:36 <fizzie> Okay, the switch had 4 HDMI inputs on it, but I don't have that many sources.
21:40:51 <fizzie> This is a Dell U2515H, for reference.
21:41:38 <wob_jonas> yeah, but then all these different connection types get complicated because you often need at least passive converters (the video cards do the actual conversion, the passive converter just connects the wires)
21:42:10 <wob_jonas> why do we have both hdmi and displayport, as separate types?
21:42:44 <fizzie> It does get pretty complicated, especially since all of them have different version numbers.
21:43:00 <wob_jonas> I understand that VGA only does analog video signals, which is why we need DVI, which can do analog or digital, and that DVI doesn't do sound in the same cable as video, which is why we have HDMI
21:43:49 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, I know the same kind of connector port can carry multiple different signals, so there's DVI with fewer or more ports, depending on whether you want analog or digital, and... something about more than 8 bits of color depth or some such magic? I'm not sure frankly
21:44:31 <fizzie> It's very specific. E.g. you need at least DisplayPort 1.3 to have enough bandwidth for a 3840x2160 resolution.
21:44:59 <fizzie> Or 1.2. Or something, I don't remember anymore.
21:45:14 <fizzie> There's also something you need HDMI 2.0 for, over HDMI 1.4.
21:45:35 <wob_jonas> and while we're there, why do we have both USB3 (two speeds of that, I think) and ESATA for fast communication between a computer and a storage device?
21:45:40 <fizzie> Apparently that's the 4K resolution thing, and the DisplayPort version was something else.
21:46:12 <wob_jonas> ah, so maybe you need a fancier cable for extra-high resolution with high color depth
21:46:28 <fizzie> There's an USB 3.1 as well, and it comes in "gen 1" and "gen 2" varieties.
21:47:20 <wob_jonas> fizzie: oh, I thought we only had USB 3 and USB 3.1
21:47:22 <fizzie> USB 3.1 gen 2 can do five speeds: low speed, full speed, high speed, superspeed and superspeed+.
21:47:32 <\oren\_> what is the maximum VGA screen size?
21:47:34 <wob_jonas> do USB 3 and USB 3.1 use the same physical connector?
21:47:44 <fizzie> It's just a little funny how "full speed" is like the second-slowest option.
21:48:08 <\oren\_> I guess since it's an analog signal it's limited physically rather than my protocol
21:48:12 <wob_jonas> fizzie: oh, that's like how "double density" is the small capacity floppy disk
21:48:40 <wob_jonas> the one nobody ever uses because high density floppies are supported everywhere and are cheap and have twice as much data
21:48:54 <wob_jonas> you can still read double density in ordinary drives, but you barely find any
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21:54:12 <fizzie> If you wanted video out of a "mobile" device, it gets even more complex. There's that thing called MHL (actually, MHL 1, 2, 3 and superMHL) which sort of has the "semantics" of HDMI, but usually use either MHL-USB (micro-USB-based) or a specific mode of USB Type-C. Competing with the SlimPort/MyDP, which is basically DisplayPort integrated with micro-USB.
21:54:30 <fizzie> It's also very hard to find which devices support what.
21:55:44 <fizzie> At least the U in USB stands for "universal", so there's that.
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21:57:51 <wob_jonas> there are lots of different physical connectors, lots of bulit-in hardware level protocols so you can charge stuff or have stuff charged without complicated electronics and bootstrap the digital layer
21:58:21 <wob_jonas> and then there are multiple digital protocols, the USB/USB2 on one set of wires, the USB3 on a second set of wires, bootstrapped by USB2
22:00:01 <wob_jonas> and it's nice that USB3 is fast, but just try to find a motherboard that has two USB3 root hubs built in, meaning that it can do full-speed USB3 conversations on two different ports at the same time, without having to buy a separate USB3 extension card that you plug in to PCI express (of which there are also like six different speeds)
22:05:25 <int-e> Bus 008 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
22:05:25 <int-e> Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
22:06:26 <fizzie> Oh, that reminds me of the whole thing with with M.2, which has a single connector that in theory can do PCIE 3.0 (x1 to x4), SATA 3.0 and USB 3.0, distinguished by various notches.
22:07:57 <fizzie> I was looking at M.2 SSDs, and the people making them don't really advertise which one of them they do, but the PCIE variants tend to be a lot faster than the SATA ones.
22:09:19 <int-e> however, the two usb3 plugs on the front are on the same USB bus, hrm.
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22:11:20 <fizzie> And "lsusb -t" is really confusing, I think there's some sort of a thing where, if you plug USB 2 and 3 devices into a USB 3 hub, the two kinds of devices end up as separate trees even though physically it's just one tree.
22:11:53 <fizzie> On the other hand, dumping photos out of the phone became a lot faster when I changed monitors.
22:12:11 <fizzie> (There's an USB hub in there, and the new one does 3.0.)
22:15:37 <wob_jonas> fizzie: no, those are physically two different trees. basically in an USB3 socket, there's some extra wires for USB3 data. the USB3 device sends data on those only, and uses the USB2 for power and bootstrapping power, if I understand correctly.
22:16:43 <wob_jonas> yes, some monitors have a USB hub built in. and my father has a monitor that didn't, but he permanently taped a small USB hub gadget onto it. instant monitor feature upgrade.
22:18:55 <wob_jonas> the drawback of that monitor is that if you turn off the monitor with the power switch, then suddenly you can't use the keyboard or mouse plugged into your computer through the monitor
22:19:13 <wob_jonas> that's not the one with the instant upgrade, but the monitor with the hub originally built in
22:28:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: ah I see. The board has two USB host controllers besides the one in the X99 chipset... that's how it got 2xUSB 3.0 and 1xUSB 3.1
22:29:14 <wob_jonas> int-e: two USB-3 controllers? because two USB-2 controllers is easy
22:29:47 <wob_jonas> but for USB-3 devices, one USB-3 controller usually gives more bandwidth than three USB-2 controllers
22:30:17 <wob_jonas> fo course, after a while, the rest of the computer can't keep up with the data either
22:30:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: http://sprunge.us/VcBB
22:30:27 <int-e> (this matches the MB documentation)
22:30:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't know which one of EHCI and UHCI and XHCI and whatever mean what, but ok
22:31:31 <int-e> wob_jonas: the xHCI is the USB 3.0 one, the other two in the chipset must be USB 2.0
22:32:30 <int-e> anyway, I had not realized that this is special... nor have I ever exploited this so far.
22:32:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: that says you have one USB3 and two USB2 controllers
22:33:23 <int-e> wob_jonas: no, there's another USB 3.0 host and a USB 3.1 one in addition to that.
22:34:35 <int-e> I meant the VIA and the ASMedia things
22:35:30 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh. but some of those are probably different software views of the same controller
22:35:43 <wob_jonas> if your motherboard actually had two independent controllers, then you'd see two of the same type
22:36:02 <wob_jonas> your OS probably just creates multiple different devices that view the same underlying hardware in different ways
22:36:08 <int-e> hmm, no it makes sense here.
22:36:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: do you have an extension card plugged in (such as via PCI express) that provides some of those?
22:37:01 <int-e> yes it's odd to have three vendors, but the X99 part of the core chipset, and the two additional ones are different USB versions.
22:37:22 <int-e> no I just bought a fairly expensive gaming motherboard
22:38:01 <wob_jonas> anyway, as for how to exploit that, get two external disk dockers, the ones in which you put a hard disk or solid state disk connected to the docking device with SATA or mini SATA or the other size of mini SATA, and the docking device is connected to your computer by USB 3 and to a power supply by a round power port
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22:38:56 <wob_jonas> int-e: is it real gaming, or just labeled as "gaming"? hardware people label the most ridiculous non-gaming equipment as "gaming" for some reason, including motherboards with built-in hardware RAID and keyboards with hard clicky keys for use by programmers
22:39:53 <wob_jonas> they add all sort of search terms so that if you search for either "gaming" in ebay or google or something, you find all their products, even the ones not for gaming
22:40:13 <int-e> https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/X99A-GAMING-7.html
22:40:38 <int-e> I regarded it as a marketing label either way...
22:43:25 <wob_jonas> ah, the Gaming Device Port has "3x more gold than regular connectors" and "10x longer lifetime when plugging/un-plugging"
22:43:40 <wob_jonas> but it's not clear if that refers to the PS2 port or an USB port
22:44:02 <wob_jonas> or maybe all ports are gilded with gold
22:44:10 <int-e> so that's what it means... it refers to 1xPS/2 and 2xUSB 2.0
22:45:07 <int-e> and it's a total waste because those are the least moved plugs
22:45:38 <wob_jonas> not for a gamer who tries a new different type of fancy game controller every month
22:45:56 <int-e> but I can't complain, board has been stable, it has 8 slots and on board sound is decent... those were basically the things I cared about.
22:46:06 <int-e> 8 memory slots even
22:46:19 <int-e> I think all those left out words are a sign, good night.
22:46:22 <wob_jonas> and even when he doesn't buy anything new, he has to switch between the ordinary hand-held controller, Guitar Hero Rock Band controller, and the steering wheel and foot pedals
22:46:56 <wob_jonas> it's a nice motherboard. not the one I'll buy, but nice.
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22:49:17 <HackEgo> 1/2:onion//Onions are the bullies of the dinner plate. They can make you cry. \ eventually//Eventually we'll have a better wisdom here. \ lystrosaur//The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic. \ ring//Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
22:49:19 <HackEgo> 2/2: \ gaspacho//You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
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23:35:55 <\oren\_> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/914734726493102082
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23:46:44 <\oren\_> boily: are you excited for reusable rockets that can loft hundred-ton satellites?
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00:00:59 <boily> \oren\: yup! anything that can haul ass into space is good.
00:01:10 <boily> and if it's reusable, then go for it!
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05:02:15 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
05:02:57 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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13:50:38 <potato44> does anyone know of any esolangs that use ascii control charactersas its commands?
13:51:32 <ais523> potato44: exclusively? or among other commands?
13:51:52 <ais523> gs2 tends to use a lot of characters in the 0-31 range, some of its most basic commands are there, but it has others out of the range
13:51:57 <potato44> ideally exclusively, but it depends on what other characters
13:53:09 <Taneb> Whitespace sort of almost counts
13:53:31 <ais523> Taneb: newline and tab are control characters, but space isn't
13:53:37 <potato44> I know of BENUL, but NUL is also a problomatic character
13:53:50 <Taneb> Hence "sort of almost"
13:54:02 <ais523> I can't think of a language that was specifically designed to use the control character range (there might be one that I don't know about), especially if you want the control characters to match the language semantics in some way
13:54:34 <ais523> there's a version of BF that uses character codes 1-8 as the commands, and is typically used internally in optimizing interpreters, but I don't really think that counts (especially as the number assignment is arbitrary)
13:55:24 <potato44> If there is an actual interpreter for that dialect of BF, that would be exactly what I want
13:55:48 <ais523> it's easy enough to write one
13:55:55 <potato44> as long as it also ignores the rest of ascii
13:56:02 <b_jonas> do you expect us to have interpreters for all trivial brainfuck substitutions? just take some reasonable brainfuck implementation and modify it.
13:56:33 <b_jonas> we have Brainfuck and Ook! interpreters, because Ook! is historically important, but the rest aren't important
13:56:41 <potato44> easy enough to write, but I'm not sure where the rules of PPCG fall on the allowability of it.
13:57:36 <ais523> potato44: I was suspecting this was related to the polyglot :-D
13:58:47 <ais523> that thing has somehow turned conventional #esoteric wisdom on its head by actually creating a market for a large quantity of trivial BF substitutions
13:59:49 <potato44> well, the other day I found some japanese guys github that had about a hlaf dozen each lazy substitutions for BF, Lazy K and a couple of other langs
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14:06:27 <potato44> found a lang that only recognises formfeed and vertical tab and then translates that to a javascript exec. Now to work out how exec works in javascript
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14:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53160 * StellatedHexahedron * (+1227) Created page with "'''Stape''' is office-supplies-based programming language, designed to be difficult to program in in new and interesting ways. It was created in 2017 by User: stellatedHexah..."
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15:29:31 <ais523> danil was very upset at the topic not being 100% accurate, and thus maybe also takes sarcasm at face value?
15:34:32 <b_jonas> in case anyone cares, in Magic: the Gathering, https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/ixalan-update-bulletin-2017-09-28 Ixalan Update Bulletin (summary of rules changes)
15:35:34 <ais523> Hooloovo0: it wasn't until I fixed it
15:35:42 <ais523> it claimed the channel was a hypercube
15:35:49 <ais523> which is a fairly inconsequential inaccuracy, really
15:36:05 <Taneb> I'm not sure I can reasonably demonstrate the channel isn't a hypercube
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15:37:36 <danil_> Why are people saying no? You are online yes?
15:38:49 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
15:39:00 <lambdabot> https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/facetious
15:39:35 <lambdabot> http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/bearlic.html
15:39:35 <lambdabot> Title: Bear license - Wisconsin DNR
15:40:05 <danil_> Usefull, huh? calling google from IRC
15:40:30 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danil
15:40:41 <Hooloovo0> I mean it's kind of annoying to us
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16:33:29 <HackEgo> 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
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16:43:18 <b_jonas> I still hate how airplane tickets only give the departure and arrival time in local time for the airports. They should give either the timezone offset of that time, or an UTC datetime.
16:43:32 <b_jonas> They do this even for tickets that go to a different timezone.
16:43:57 <b_jonas> I'm currently reading the *easy* case, when I'm just traveling to Sweden and back, so both departure and arrival are in the Paris timezone.
16:44:38 <danil_> Do you fly from Paris to Sweden
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16:47:06 <b_jonas> no, from Hungary to Sweden
16:47:33 <b_jonas> Paris is just the name I use for the timezone in modern times, because it's clearly the biggest city in this timezone
16:49:02 <b_jonas> Well, technically that's no longer true. These days Berlin and Madrid and Rome are the biggest.
16:49:17 <b_jonas> Maybe I should call it the Berlin timezone instead.
16:50:37 <Hooloovo0> I have a clock set to berlin time and not paris time
16:51:14 <b_jonas> Paris is biggest if you count greater Paris, including agglomerations.
16:51:27 <b_jonas> Which is probably the right measure for figuring out which is the most significant city in this context
16:51:37 <b_jonas> so Paris is probably the right name.
16:51:49 <LKoen> paris is literally surrounded by a wall though, so while all metropolitans grow, "paris intramuros" doesn't
16:52:49 <b_jonas> LKoen: yes, basically the city proper area is defined by how the local governments work, which is irrelevant here
16:52:55 <b_jonas> Paris is the most significant city
16:53:08 <b_jonas> (also, Berlin had a sort of strange history)
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17:11:29 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the biggest city in the Paris timezone?
17:11:29 <fungot> b_jonas: leprechauns are the most spectacular being _baluchitherium_ from the abyss before them, don't you see invisible things. you'll probably find one on the brilliant marble-sanded beaches of santraginus v, inhaling the heady sea vapors; you can read between it and forged odin's signature on the subject of towels. a world for himself a suit of oil-cloth or tarpaulin, and its transparent skin shows its face again.
17:11:59 <Taneb> b_jonas, I guess the answer is, unexpectedly, Dublin
17:12:09 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:12:13 <b_jonas> fungot, what's the biggest city in the Paris timezone?
17:12:14 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i will not go away unless we tackle them. i do not want these problems to spill over into other countries, thailand, from 2 to 14 october 2004? i am convinced that the foundation should be involved in discussions when there really is a scandal for any civilized country just to stand by and do nothing. one wonders where it finds the courage to resolve the problems suffered by citizens and their concerns ta
17:12:30 <Taneb> Or possibly Bangkok
17:12:36 <b_jonas> ok, that's avoiding this question more directly than the previous answer
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17:53:49 <\oren\> The biggest city in the paris timezone would probaby be the rhineland urban aglomeration wouldn't it
17:54:51 <b_jonas> \oren\: not by population I think
17:55:42 <\oren\> Hmm, Rhine-Ruhr region has 11 million
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17:56:04 <\oren\> ile-de-france has 12 million
17:58:46 <\oren\> seems like they're pretty close but the winner depends what data set you're looking at
17:59:00 <b_jonas> sure, at some point this gets a question of definition
18:04:04 <b_jonas> in any case, you can call the same timezone with multiple names
18:04:35 <b_jonas> so if you prefer to call it by some other big city within the timezone, feel free
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18:05:22 <\oren\> hmm, maybe we can just wait until there is continuous development along the Paris-Ruhr train line
18:06:14 <\oren\> then give some fancy name to said urban aglomeration
18:09:41 <\oren\> Megacity E or some shit
18:12:14 <\oren\> altho, by that point it would include the entire country of belgium probaby
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19:58:00 <Taneb> Is it weird that I wind up writing things like "translating to a double de Bruijn stack context" when I'm doing something for fun
19:58:46 <ais523> Taneb: I had to read up on a few mathematical papers to be able to parse Incident efficiently
20:00:21 <Taneb> Although I'm making up terminology here
20:01:07 <Taneb> I'm not sure if de Bruijn stack is the word for what I'm doing, and honestly I'm not sure at all if I need the second one
20:03:32 <Taneb> What I'm doing is implementing System F in Agda
20:04:20 <ais523> with type annotations? or are you using some other method to make it theoretically possible?
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20:05:36 <Taneb> I'm using something like De Bruijn indices, but because it's Agda I want to statically check that I'm not going to underflow the stack, and furthermore I want to carry the variable's types about too
20:05:42 <Taneb> So hence a De Bruijn stack
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20:06:36 <Taneb> I need something similar at the type level, but for that I think I just need to know how many type variables I have lying around
20:07:57 <Taneb> (if I was doing System Fω I'd need to know the kinds of the type variables as well)
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20:12:37 <Taneb> I'd be very interested to know if what I'm calling the De Bruijn stack exists in the literature
20:12:42 <Taneb> (the the brown stack?)
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21:04:54 <\oren\> muhuhahahaha self-modifying C++
21:05:26 <\oren\> hmm, wait does it count if it has to be recompiled and rerun each time it modifies itself?
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21:06:35 <\oren\> i guess this isn't so self-modifying
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21:50:50 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think the word for that is "polymorphic"
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23:02:30 <HackEgo> 1/2:context//context is a word with many meanings, depending on where it is used. \ fourth//Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication. \ atwp//According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper". \ icfp//I see functorial people. \ brainf**k//There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinki
23:02:46 <boily> no, I do not think about brainfuck.
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23:12:03 <wob_jonas> oh no! they're falsifying the will
23:12:42 <wob_jonas> I'm listening to Gianni Schicci, the opera
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00:56:45 * boily pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch ♪
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02:42:54 <HackEgo> Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
02:43:10 <HackEgo> 10501:2017-03-24 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/fo{,u}rth; slwd fourth\\ wisdom//s,rt,urt,
02:44:07 <HackEgo> 10501:2017-03-24 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/fo{,u}rth; slwd fourth\\ wisdom//s,rt,urt, \ 5407:2015-06-05 <oerjän> slashlearn forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
02:44:44 <shachaf> Wait, what's going on with that slwd?
02:45:00 <oerjan> it looks pretty broken.
02:46:32 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/fo{u,}rth
02:46:38 <HackEgo> Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
02:47:15 <HackEgo> .wisdoms other the all upon builds wisdom fourth The
02:47:39 <oerjan> that's the one i wanted to change. but i forgot to fix the mistake of moving `? forth
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04:44:32 <HackEgo> Bless you, oerjan. Bloerjan.
04:44:53 <oerjan> . o O ( but i wasn't sneezing )
04:51:19 <oerjan> i was going to make that a portmanteau but there isn't a single common letter.
05:14:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: q: not found
05:14:53 <HackEgo> 1/178:14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 40) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 73) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is
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05:15:10 <HackEgo> 975) <Gregor> Sgeo: That fact is so fun I can feel my pancreas kicking into overdrive.
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06:57:08 <HackEgo> 516) <oklopol> king is something women are better at than men
06:57:50 <HackEgo> 1/3:1177) <int-e> like good old time, with elbow and foot lengths of the king. <Slereah_> man that must have sucked <Slereah_> People would be always like "Hey king, can you drop by, I have stuff to measure" <Jafet> That's why they're called rulers, you know \ 239) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case
06:58:08 <HackEgo> 2/3: one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them \ 516) <oklopol> king is something women are better at than men \ 239) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them \ 239) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in ca
06:58:11 <HackEgo> 3/3:se one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
06:58:47 <shachaf> `1 quote '\bking\b' | shuf
06:58:48 <HackEgo> 1/2:1177) <int-e> like good old time, with elbow and foot lengths of the king. <Slereah_> man that must have sucked <Slereah_> People would be always like "Hey king, can you drop by, I have stuff to measure" <Jafet> That's why they're called rulers, you know \ 516) <oklopol> king is something women are better at than men \ 239) <zzo38> However i
06:58:53 <HackEgo> 2/2:s probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
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09:59:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53161&oldid=53156 * Luke1337 * (+362) /* Introductions */
09:59:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53162&oldid=44965 * Luke1337 * (-95) removed a dead link
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12:36:57 <b_jonas> ``` ln -svf allsets-2017-09-20.txt share/mtg/allsets.txt
12:36:59 <HackEgo> 'share/mtg/allsets.txt' -> 'allsets-2017-09-20.txt'
12:38:32 <HackEgo> Walk the Aeons \ 4UU \ Sorcery \ Buyback--Sacrifice three Islands. (You may sacrifice three Islands in addition to any other costs as you cast this spell. If you do, put this card into your hand as it resolves.) \ Target player takes an extra turn after this one. \ TSP-R \ \ Walk the Plank \ BB \ Sorcery \ Destroy target non-Merfolk creature. \ XL
12:38:36 <b_jonas> `card-by-name walk the plank
12:38:37 <HackEgo> Walk the Plank \ BB \ Sorcery \ Destroy target non-Merfolk creature. \ XLN-U
12:40:32 <lambdabot> https://magic.wizards.com/en/products/ixalan
12:42:07 <b_jonas> int-e: that's the latest released expert set. I'm testing with the latest to show that updating the local copy of the card database worked.
12:47:31 <b_jonas> ``` grep "^306\.4." share/mtg/rules.txt # I also updated the local copy of the comprehensive rules
12:47:32 <HackEgo> 306.4. Previously, planeswalkers were subject to a “planeswalker uniqueness rule” that stopped a player from controlling two planeswalkers of the same planeswalker type. This rule has been removed and planeswalker cards printed before this change have received errata in the Oracle card reference to have the legendary supertype. Like other legen
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15:23:54 <HackEgo> Realms Befitting My Majesty
15:24:02 <HackEgo> 1/1:This World Belongs to Me \ Nothing Can Stop Me Now \ My Undead Horde Awakens \ Delight in the Hunt \ No One Will Hear Your Cries
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18:38:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53163&oldid=53162 * Oerjan * (+120) Use wayback
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19:32:34 <HackEgo> olist 1101: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:20:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: so I read the M:tG Ixalan update bulletin. I was surprised that they're making a new phasing card. that's one of those mechanics that are too complicated rules-wise to be worth bringing back, like banding.
22:21:06 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's in a supplementary set, those are allowed to be more complex
22:21:31 <ais523> although, hmm, is it the first new phasing card since the phasing rules changed?
22:21:55 <shachaf> I thought that mechanic was phased out.
22:21:58 <ais523> still, reprinting phasing card would seem entirely reasonable in a Masters set, and only slightly out of place in Commander or Conspiracy
22:22:13 <ais523> so I expect creating a new one has similar considerations
22:22:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: you mean it won't be in Modern? yes, that's a good point, but still.
22:22:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, nor in Standard
22:23:01 <ais523> only Legacy, Vintage and Commander
22:23:21 <ais523> (it's clearly the sort of card that was designed for multiplayer)
22:23:26 <ais523> `card-by-name teferi's protection
22:23:27 <HackEgo> Teferi's Protection \ 2W \ Instant \ Until your next turn, your life total can't change and you have protection from everything. All permanents you control phase out. (While they're phased out, they're treated as though they don't exist. They phase in before you untap during your untap step.) \ Exile Teferi's Protection. \ C17-R
22:23:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: reprinting is generally more easier to support than making entirely new cards
22:24:20 <ais523> one-shot phasing is probably the easiest sort to understand
22:24:46 <ais523> although this does apply to all sorts of permanents, increasing the chance of a confusing interaction
22:26:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't see why one-shot would be much easier to understand than phasing every turn
22:27:10 <ais523> also that reminder text explains most of the relevant cases by itself, the most likely ones that aren't explained are to do when an aura and the enchanted permanent have two different controllers
22:27:35 <ais523> wob_jonas: because "X phases out" needs fewer definitions than "Phasing", the keyword
22:28:38 <wob_jonas> except for the part that it happens at instant speed now.
22:28:53 <wob_jonas> so there's more potential interactions with other spells.
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22:32:43 <wob_jonas> Mind you, I also think that permanents becoming a copy of an object is too complicated rules-wise, and so is making permanents lose all abilities, yet Wizards still keep printing them (in Modern at rare).
22:33:17 <ais523> clone effects are popular enough that Wizards wants to make them work, I guess
22:33:41 <ais523> it isn't too conceptually complex in the common case, you assume that the copy was printed as being identical to the copied card for as long as the copy effect lasts
22:33:50 <ais523> the main issues come in special cases, like copying a DFC
22:34:02 <wob_jonas> (Actually the latter in uncommon too, and was in common in Lorwyn.)
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22:35:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but even among clone effects, which are difficult already, an already existing permanent temporarily becoming a copy is slightly more difficult than just making token copies or having a permanent etb as a copy and remaining a copy forever.
22:36:25 <wob_jonas> And yes, the main issues come in special cases, but there are lots of different types of special cases, and they come up in recent sets too.
22:37:01 <wob_jonas> Although I must admit that they eliminated one special case entirely, namely the old rules for Primal Clay, which they replaced with simple to understand new rules.
22:38:35 <wob_jonas> So now Primal Clay and two other cards just set its own p/t and abilities, just like levelers; as opposed to setting the whole copiable values, like split cards, flip cards, double-faced cards, morph, do.
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22:44:16 <wob_jonas> Oh, that reminds me, a rules question. I have a Horned Turtle (vanilla) in play. Can I resolve Artificial Evolution on it in such a way as to replace all instances of Sliver with Wizard, then much later, Cytoshape that turtle to a Predatory Sliver to have it grant a bonus to all my Wizards?
22:45:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: that's just a layers question, isn't it?
22:45:52 <ais523> and I'm fairly sure that copy applies before text change, so it should work
22:45:57 <wob_jonas> (I'm asking about current rules, even if I sometimes say "in play" instead of "on the battlefield")
22:46:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, not only that. I'm not sure if choosing Sliver is a valid choice at all if that word doesn't currently occur on the target object.
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22:47:14 <ais523> `card-by-name artificial evolution
22:47:14 <HackEgo> Artificial Evolution \ U \ Instant \ Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one creature type with another. The new creature type can't be Wall. (This effect lasts indefinitely.) \ ONS-R
22:47:29 <ais523> hmm, it's unclear from the wording, I assume there'd be a ruling on it
22:48:03 <ais523> 04/10/2004 Can target a card with no appropriate words on it, or even one with no words at all.
22:48:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: that only says "can target". it doesn't say what happens at resolution.
22:48:44 <ais523> well it clearly isn't countered on resolution
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22:48:55 <ais523> and there's no rule that says that effects aren't created just because they couldn't do anything
22:49:04 <wob_jonas> when I set the target, it won't check whether choices at resolution are valid or actions at resolution can be carried out
22:49:36 <wob_jonas> it surely won't get *countered*, I only wonder if it's such that there's no valid choices so the action is ignored, or, in this case, the only valid choice is Turtle
22:50:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, but there are rules saying that in some case when I make choices at resolution, I can't choose ones that are impossible
22:50:31 <wob_jonas> that applies for "you may" choices at least
22:50:41 <wob_jonas> even if it's not about paying costs
22:50:54 <wob_jonas> but two alternative non-pay actions
22:51:50 <wob_jonas> but it's possible that that doesn't apply for this choice, and even more likely that I can choose Sliver even if it doesn't appear in the text of the card
22:52:38 <ais523> this is a comparable situation to casting "target permanent gets +1/+1" on a land; I'd expect that to work
22:52:42 <ais523> although I'm not sure if it's possible at the moment
22:52:51 <ais523> oh right, there's a situation with Vehicles
22:52:58 <ais523> where you can increase their stats before they're animated
22:53:10 <wob_jonas> even if it's not impossible, I wonder if "one creature type" refers only to a creature type that appears in the text
22:53:35 <ais523> `card-by-name gearshift ace
22:53:35 <HackEgo> Gearshift Ace \ 1W \ Creature -- Dwarf Pilot \ 2/1 \ First strike \ Whenever Gearshift Ace crews a Vehicle, that Vehicle gains first strike until end of turn. \ KLD-U
22:54:14 <ais523> "crews" triggers when the creature is tapped, not when the crew ability resolves
22:54:22 <ais523> so the Vehicle gainst first strike first
22:54:24 <ais523> then becomes a creature later on
22:54:41 <ais523> granting first strike to an artifact doesn't make sense and yet the effect is still created
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23:04:22 <wob_jonas> and yes, card text is written very carefully so that when something grants p/t bonus/malus or first strike or trample to some other permanent, the text either explicitly requires a creature, or implicitly requires because it explicitly requires "blocking" in case of Glyph of Destruction.
23:07:20 <ais523> I think the reason M:tG normally disallows things like giving a land +1/+1 is not because it doesn't work but because it would confuse players
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23:07:35 <ais523> doing it to a Vehicle is less confusing because at least you expect those to turn into creatures at some point
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23:16:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and there are other edge cases, eg. if you use an external animator, then Chronatog Totem can give itself +3/+3 after the animator is cancelled
23:18:20 <wob_jonas> or any number of creature like Stonewood Invoker could give itself p/t bonus in a way that's still resolved after it's turned to a noncreature by Soul Sculptor
23:19:03 <wob_jonas> because when creatures give *themselves* p/t bonus or first strike or trample, then the text generally doesn't explicitly check that it's still a creature
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00:10:12 <HackEgo> 1/3:zarutian//You can trust Zarutian. He fixes, as an electronics technician, banal mistakes of electronics engineers. Rather cy(ph|b)erpunkish in outlook regarding the 'Net. Knows more about ocaps than you can imagine. Possesses an Icelandic unnerver that ejects freezingly hot lava out of its business end. Bears an 'Authentic fakes provider' sea
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00:10:13 <HackEgo> 2/3:l from the guild of Realers. He is also known for making rather long HackEgo wisdom entries. Take for instance this entry. It has a whole subentry just on Icelandic unnerver. Even though the Icelandic unnerver has its own. \ rhetorical question//Why did Taneb invent the rhetorical question without providing an answer? \ the u//The U are a v
00:10:16 <HackEgo> 3/3:ery mad people. \ intercal//INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market. \ eridanipoid//Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
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00:18:40 * oerjan smells a PPCG bounty coming his way
00:21:39 <boily> what does a bounty mean in this context?
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00:25:22 <oerjan> (stackexchange site rep points)
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01:12:28 <ais523> oerjan: for which answer?
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01:18:27 <oerjan> ais523: well it's not explicitly stated that it's for me but i have a good vibe about https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/138912/
01:19:11 <oerjan> (i'm the only one answering in a non-esoteric language)
01:20:57 <oerjan> or well, TI-BASIC might not be esoteric.
01:20:59 <ais523> oerjan: nice, it manages to be obfuscated and underhanded simultaneously and to useful effect
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01:21:32 <ais523> although including a cyrillic and ASCII d in the same line is probably a loophole violation for underhanded code; luckily this wasn't an underhanded competition
01:26:00 <oerjan> the cyrillic character was not chosen for underhandedness at all, of course; it was simply the smallest unicode character that worked there (possibly the only one)
01:26:24 <oerjan> only two byte one that is
01:26:26 <ais523> and the ASCII d is an essential part of the spelling of "id"
01:26:48 <oerjan> i probably didn't have to use d for the last-minute change
01:27:26 <oerjan> that was just the first letter that worked there, presumably.
01:31:27 <oerjan> hm "or" fits instead of "id" afa characters are concerned, but it gives a type ambiguity.
01:33:04 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Integer]) arising from a use of ‘e_1128115’
01:33:37 <oerjan> "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:33:49 <oerjan> > var "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:34:34 <oerjan> > map generalCategory "\2562\3843\5124\6405"
01:34:36 <lambdabot> [NonSpacingMark,OtherSymbol,OtherLetter,OtherLetter]
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01:35:33 <oerjan> hm no letters until it passes into 3 bytes, i recognize the ᐄ
01:35:49 <oerjan> (that's the character i allude to in the explanation)
01:36:14 <oerjan> i originally had that before thinking of the tab trick
01:46:42 <ais523> huh, what's the kind of Foldable there?
01:47:36 <ais523> it's weird to see quantification over type constructors, although I guess if any non-total language can do it, it's probably Haskell
01:51:49 <shachaf> Do you think it's weird with Functor and Monad too?
01:51:58 <shachaf> I guess when Haskell was new this was looked at as a pretty unusual feature.
01:52:25 <shachaf> It even had some name like "constructor classes".
01:53:20 <ais523> shachaf: yes, although monads are weird enough that you don't instinctively consider the monad "constructor" as being a type and so it doesn't feel as out of place
01:54:08 <shachaf> Rust still doesn't support this feature. :-(
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01:55:30 <ais523> that reminds me, I started trying to write a program in Rust to try it out
01:56:09 <ais523> and found a problem that seems to be a) common and b) in need of a new feature to address it (although multiple possible solutions would work)
01:56:46 <shachaf> I had that experience multiple times when I tried writing some Rust a while ago.
01:57:13 <ais523> the case where it came up for me was: suppose you want a trait that describes enums, including how many elements you have; and you want to create an array with X elements, where X is the number of possibilties of the enum, given the enum as a type parameter
01:57:46 <ais523> you can't currently do this without placing a large number of type bounds on the resulting trait that leak implementation details
01:58:42 <ais523> the cleanest and simplest fix, AFAICT, is to allow for "closed" traits (that can't have new types implementing them), plus a rule that if a type implements a closed trait, it (automatically / on request) implements all traits that types implementing that closed trait implement
01:59:12 <ais523> (this is a tautology, but the point is that if I have x: ClosedTrait, and only types A and B implement ClosedTrait, I can then assume x implements any trait implemented by both A and B)
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02:21:20 <ais523> wait, I thought there was only one base kind
02:27:00 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Int#’
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02:27:30 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:27:47 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:28:02 <oerjan> shachaf: pardon me, i'm trying to demonstrate to ais523 here
02:28:39 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, so kinds in Haskell have changed from being a mathematical concept to more of a "this is how the Haskell implementation handles a type"?
02:28:41 <oerjan> now unboxed types have a kind showing an approximation of their runtime representation
02:28:52 <shachaf> We figured out some good GHC bugs back in the day using all these extra kinds.
02:29:20 <oerjan> (before they were all tossed into a special kind #)
02:29:28 <shachaf> one might even go so far as to call them "astonishingly ingenious"
02:29:34 <ais523> shachaf: why on earth does HackEgo have a command specifically for editing oerjan's wisdom entry?
02:29:41 <oerjan> this allows more refined safe type coercions
02:30:12 <ais523> that is a problem in its own right, surely
02:33:39 <oerjan> ais523: these days kinds are also types, as part of the (incomplete) project to make haskell dependently typed. and types whose own kinds are * are themselves kinds.
02:34:09 <oerjan> (* is its own kind, which makes the type logic inconsistent but goldfire swears that's fine)
02:34:14 <ais523> making Haskell dependently typed sounds like a bad idea
02:34:39 <ais523> even languages that are designed from the outset to be dependently typed struggle with having dependent typing
02:35:11 <oerjan> and Constraint has been there for a while, after ghc got support for making classes and the like into type arguments
02:36:17 <oerjan> (a class with parameters of kind k1, k2, etc. itself has kind k1 -> k2 -> ... -> Constraint)
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02:37:18 <ais523> is it possible to make a class that takes constraints as arguments? I guess it would be?
02:37:25 <ais523> although the syntax for that could be awkward
02:37:44 <ais523> X y => y t => t a -> b
02:38:56 <oerjan> that's still mathematical, btw. the "how the Haskell implementation handles a type" you mention was added to make type coercions safe between types of equal representation
02:39:12 <oerjan> (it's the RuntimeRep argument to TYPE)
02:39:49 <oerjan> ais523: you certainly can. the second => would probably be a ->
02:40:35 <oerjan> i'm not quite getting the example you're going for
02:41:05 <oerjan> edwardk's constraints package surely has some examples.
02:41:48 <ais523> hmm, that example's probably more complex than it should be
02:42:17 <oerjan> in fact, the Forall module i've contributed to has some.
02:42:51 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/constraints-0.9.1/docs/Data-Constraint-Forall.html
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02:45:20 <oerjan> the main module also has some
02:45:40 <oerjan> of course the entire point of that package is to play around with this stuff
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05:16:24 <oerjan> ...why is scott aaronson's blog comments suddenly full of videos
05:16:39 * oerjan hasn't decided whether he's complaining or not.
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05:46:33 <shachaf> oerjan: I went to a Mill talk and the speaker was apparently in Trondheim for a while
05:49:28 <shachaf> There needs to be a command to view wisdom/oerjan too
05:51:47 <oerjan> similar to `hwrl, i think
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14:18:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: probably wordpress stuff
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15:16:27 <int-e> . o O ( Coming for Halloween: The Google Skin Crawler. )
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16:31:46 <LKoen> do you think Brainfuck Joust would be suited for this? http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2017-October/010261.html
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17:59:07 <lambdabot> LOWI 051650Z 27013G31KT 200V330 9999 FEW070 BKN120 22/03 Q1010 NOSIG
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18:05:54 <int-e> hmm, windy but approximately parallel to runway... boring ;-)
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23:45:27 <lambdabot> CYUL 052200Z 24010KT 30SM BKN075 18/08 A2995 RMK AC7 SLP143 DENSITY ALT 500FT
23:45:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 052150Z 25010KT 9999 FEW012 SCT020 BKN029 09/07 Q0997 RMK WIND 670FT 27018KT
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00:11:23 <quintopia> This is being so hype https://youtu.be/3Gs6laePLIw
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00:33:36 <boily> no. I know it exists, but I haven't.
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13:00:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
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14:24:08 <b_jonas> In the toilets in this building, we have these toilet paper dispenser boxes that try to make it harder to steal the entire roll of toilet paper. These have the funny property that if they're half empty, then you can open them easily with the key by just reaching inside them with your hand next to the roll and turning the latch from the inside.
14:25:46 <b_jonas> They should use this feature for the toilet cubicle *doors* instead of the toilet paper dispenser, so you don't have a manually operated latch on doors, but instead when someone is in the toilet, then the door is automatically hard to open from the outside, but when nobody is in, then anyone can enter easily.
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16:04:42 <b_jonas> URLs are such a great invention. Before them, people gave human-readable descriptions like "available on the internet by anonymous ftp on somehostname"
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16:35:40 <quintopi1> b_jonas: but what more simple mechanism is there to ensure "hard to open when someone is inside" than a latch that can only be fastened by someone inside?
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16:41:29 <impomatic> Hi, did someone here mention they're reading Computer-Kurzweil 2?
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17:12:44 <b_jonas> quintopi1: the latch only works if people actually close the latch. here, people are lazy, they don't close the latch when they're in, and they leave the door closed and the lamp lit when they exit the cubicle so you can't tell from those whether it's empty.
17:13:08 <b_jonas> impomatic: dunno. you'll have to download all the logs and grep it or something.
17:13:33 <b_jonas> there are some contradictory rumours that HackEgo may have a local copy and you can search there
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18:04:25 <b_jonas> jesus, is a ninth planet the same fucking deal as life on mars now, as in, pop journalists fixating on it and ignoring any explanations on why it doesn't exist?
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18:06:13 <fungot> int-e: mr president, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, the subject to provide for possible suspension of existing cooperation agreements.
18:06:22 <int-e> longwinded fungot!
18:06:23 <fungot> int-e: at the end of this year under the dutch presidency to focus on. in any event, the important thing at the moment, there is a risk of the death penalty as a first interim step, target values are set. the introduction of the euro.
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19:23:58 <fizzie> fungot: Where were you?
19:23:59 <fungot> fizzie: there is a great sense of responsibility but it will still be accepted. amendment no 7. amendments nos 22, 23, 24 and 25 march in berlin is no reason for wanting, in the next few days will see demonstrators from all over the european aviation safety agency, which is called troubled waters. i would therefore ask the following question: in the committee on industry, external trade, research and energy has naturally consid
19:24:39 <fizzie> "in the next few days will see demonstrators from all over the european aviation safety agency" FWIW I don't think that'll be a terribly impressive demonstration.
19:24:54 <fizzie> How many people can they have there?
19:26:26 <Hooloovo0> how often can you actually fly into france?
19:26:55 <Hooloovo0> err it was berlin that had a bunch of airport strikes
19:33:39 <\oren\> well i mean even if there's an airport strike you can fly into another country and then take teh eurostar
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23:36:02 <quintopi1> b_jonas: the secret is to point and laugh at people every time you accidentally walk in on them. "HAHA! Look at you! You forgot to latch the door AGAIN! I can't believe you still haven't got the hang of this! Hey, everyone! So-and-so left the door unlatched! Come look!"
23:38:15 <quintopi1> a more good-natured solution would be to just put super soakers near the bathroom, and decree that from now on, if you manage to squirt someone with it while they're in the bathroom, they gotta toss a buck in the beer-fund jar.
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02:34:45 <lambdabot> ENVA 062350Z 23018KT 9999 BKN032 06/03 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 24019KT
02:44:00 <lambdabot> KOAK 070053Z 31006KT 10SM FEW180 25/03 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP146 T02500028
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03:54:01 <oerjan> killed the wrong tmux process by accident
04:52:16 <zzo38> For a computer game I have started to make up (a puzzle game) I have made this palette: http://zzo38computer.org/img_1C/palette.png http://sprunge.us/IQCH The top row is PC colours, the right column is some extras (the bottom-right represents transparency), and the rest is the Hero Mesh palette (with a few alterations).
04:52:27 <zzo38> Do you think it is good?
04:53:02 <shachaf> Is your puzzle game compatible with CGA?
04:54:09 <shachaf> Cale: I got my Super Mega book in the mail.
04:54:15 <zzo38> (Although I have made other computer games that are.)
04:56:12 <oerjan> . o O ( a very big book, i presume )
04:58:57 <zzo38> (This new game is design to be similar to Hero Mesh, kind of, although many things which were I think mistakes or other problems in the design of Hero Mesh, that I can do them differently this time, in order to make it better and avoid some of the problems that Hero Mesh is have.)
04:59:18 <shachaf> Do you like Dangerous Dave?
05:05:15 <zzo38> I do have that game in my computer, too
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05:16:50 <shachaf> I'm not sure you can save.
05:17:52 <zzo38> Does any version of DOSBOX support its own save state function?
05:31:22 <ais523> zzo38: I've heard rumours of a hacked version that did that but it was, IIRC, not publically released
05:31:38 <ais523> and wasn't really complete enough to handle more than one game, run on other people's computers, etc.
05:50:05 <shachaf> But there are other x86 virtual machines that support that.
05:50:09 <shachaf> And you can run DOSBOX inside them.
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06:36:14 <\oren\> shachaf: would you not run freedos inside them directly?
06:38:16 <zzo38> Assuming the other x86 virtual machine emulates any of the hardware you need, then I think it will work to just run FreeDOS directly (and might even work better in some cases)
06:39:40 <shachaf> I don't know why it'd emulate DOS-compatible hardware, though.
06:40:15 <zzo38> If it is emulating a PC, then it probably should emulate DOS-compatible hardware.
06:40:49 <zzo38> (Otherwise it should hardly be called a PC)
06:40:50 <shachaf> Get that Sound Blaster Pro going
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13:42:40 <lynn> does anyone here remember continuous chess? or whatever it was called
13:43:18 <lynn> I think maybe Phantom_Hoover invented it ?v? I wanna read the rules again, they were fun!!
13:53:35 <int-e> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-01-06#230105PhantomHoover ... http://www.chessvariants.com/other.dir/continuouschess.html (which is different) seems to predate that though
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15:08:05 <FireFly> Hmm, I'm only aware of continuous go… which has an article devoted to it on Sensei's Library IIRC
15:09:08 <FireFly> https://senseis.xmp.net/?Variant https://senseis.xmp.net/?GoOnABoardWithoutLines
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15:35:03 <myname> https://github.com/Property404/fetlang did that make its way to here already?
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16:26:39 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that can't work. this is a big office building with people from lots of companies, and the toilets are shared among them and even with some guests. even if I could convince people in our company to follow those rules, I couldn't convince everyone else in the building to do that.
16:27:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I ran most of the DOS games in bochs (although a few I've ran in dosbox because that old version of bochs couldn't handle the video card requirement or something). I think it has a snapshotting feature, but I never really tried. These days, you should try qemu instead if you want snapshots for old DOS games.
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16:28:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I have sucessfully snapshotted and restored the *disk* contents when the game is powered down, in fact the termbot (which connects IRC as a terminal to the DOS machine) can restore to a snapshot I made automatically.
16:29:46 <wob_jonas> quintopia: no, I like that system. but I also know that people's opinion differs in that, some people prefer to have the toilet in the office, which they do have in the other building.
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17:51:21 <wob_jonas> Argh! Why does the label of shoelaces always give a length longer than the actual measured length of the lace?
17:52:18 <zzo38> Because it is in different units of measurement, maybe?
17:52:21 <wob_jonas> Do they measure them, like stretched with high force?
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17:53:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the label explicitly says "cm"
17:53:26 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O, it already says the units. Yes, maybe with high force. But, then, why should they do that?
17:58:11 <wob_jonas> I mean, the shoelace is not even the right order of magnitude to make the obligatory joke about males mis-sizing objects so they can brag about their twelve-inch penis.
18:00:54 <wob_jonas> ok, this other pair of laces at least has the right size
18:01:05 <wob_jonas> well, the right size for what's written on the label
18:09:57 <wob_jonas> as opposed to the right size for my boots
18:13:12 <wob_jonas> Sadly the store can't have shoelaces in every combination of material, thickness and shape, color and width, because that would be a really large number of combinations, so I just had to buy one that's close to right.
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18:22:31 <wob_jonas> Ok, now I'm going to fix all the shirts that need sewing, either to close small holes or resew buttons. I have seven shirts here, but I think there's one more hidden somewhere.
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18:40:35 <fungot> boily: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, the amsterdam treaty it would not be vaccinated but pre-emptively killed in a certain speculative event but i can, by the danish prime minister, mr fini, to help ensure that it is not a single religion that has not been mentioned before that we have had the opportunity to tell you for information purposes? i have no problems in sharing out money from public funds among yourselves. it i
18:56:37 <fizzie> Our internet has been glitchier as of late.
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18:59:17 <fizzie> Wonder what's up with HackEgo. The socat instance has 100% CPU use.
18:59:28 <fizzie> IIRC, it's inside a restart loop, so maybe if I just kill it...
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19:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <lynn> I think maybe Phantom_Hoover invented it ?v? I wanna read the rules again, they were fun!!
19:14:32 <Phantom_Hoover> frankly it was more an exercise in making the rules work than a game
19:19:14 <lynn> reading these logs now, yessss this is so good. I vaguely remember a summary existing at some point
19:19:20 <HackEgo> 677) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
19:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> the one thing that always irked me was that my original goal of having real chess as a strict subset didn't quite work
19:20:18 <Phantom_Hoover> because you couldn't e.g move a bishop northeast with a piece to the north and a piece to the east
19:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> you could easily solve that by shrinking the pieces in their squares a bit but that was inelegant enough not to satisfy me
19:21:08 <lynn> that seems to be what That Other Continous Chess does
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20:02:06 <zzo38> Why does ! in visual mode in vim always operate linewise even if the selection isn't linewise?
20:14:49 <Cale> shachaf: cool! I should expect something soon then :)
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20:45:10 <zzo38> I generally in TeX are not using the \loop command, which clobbers \next, but instead, can use macros that (if called \next, for example) might end with something like: \ifnum\xyzzy=42{\let\next}\fi\next in order to break the loop in case the condition is true. Do other people do this?
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00:16:03 <zzo38> Why do they say pi is wrong? I will agree tau is a much better idea, but that doesn't make pi wrong. (I also prefer to call tau the "period of trigonometric functions" instead of the "circle constant", but that is a different question anyways.)
00:26:05 <Guest77438> Because the people saying this are wankers
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01:15:51 <LKoen> "trigonometric function" is such a ridiculously complex concept when compared to "circle"
01:16:45 <LKoen> also, tan is a periodic trigonometric function, but it's period is pi
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02:17:48 <quintopia> TIL that ^V puts Kate in VI mode so it uses all VI keybindings.
02:19:29 <quintopia> zzo38: because "pi is wrong" is a much better attention-grabber than "mathematical pedagogy surrounding circles and trigonometry becomes quite a bit simpler and more effective when we focus attention on the radian measure of a full circle"
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02:21:01 <Warrigal_> YIL that loops in 3D rotation space have parity.
02:21:19 <Warrigal_> Suppose I take an object and turn it around 360 degrees. I just put the object through an odd rotation.
02:21:33 <Warrigal_> Suppose I turn it around 360 degrees, and then, once again, I turn it around 360 degrees, in any direction.
02:22:20 <Warrigal_> Any even rotation can be continuously deformed into the identity rotation--the one where you just leave the object alone and don't turn it at all.
02:29:46 <quintopia> a 360 degree rotation around any axis *is* the identity rotation
02:30:30 <Warrigal_> Yeah, I'm kind of using the word "rotation" wrong.
02:30:38 <Warrigal_> What I really mean is "path in rotation space".
02:31:01 <Warrigal_> Suppose I turn an object 360 degrees, then turn it 360 degrees again. That's an even path-in-rotation-space.
02:31:21 <Warrigal_> Any even path-in-rotation-space can be continuously deformed into the identity path-in-rotation-space.
02:31:36 <Warrigal_> Anyway, I just got hit by a wave of sleepiness.
02:31:53 <Warrigal_> So I'm gonna go home, vacuum some fleas, and go to bed.
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03:30:03 <zzo38> Bland Chess (which is my brother's idea) is not quite the true subset of FIDE; some moves are legal which might not be legal in FIDE because they would put yourself into check if the game was FIDE.
03:31:19 <zzo38> (Bland Chess is a chess variant where all diagonal moves are prohibited, although knight moves are still possible.)
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04:54:58 <xkapastel> is bfjoust solved? is there much room for improvement in bots?
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06:58:51 <quintopia> xkapastel: it's kind of rock-paper-scissory, so it is always possible to beat the hill
06:59:13 <quintopia> just figure out something that most of the current jousters are doing wrong and exploit it
07:00:02 <quintopia> i think that it is, in fact, currently possible to beat everything on the hill on every tape length--it's been done before as I recall.
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07:10:40 <zzo38> Now I made the program to draw a polygon onto an existing picture (the polygon does not have to be entirely within the boundary of the picture).
07:43:13 <zzo38> Please tell me if this document is good: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ff-dntsc
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15:36:47 <HackEgo> 1/2:alphabet//Alphabet is a system of writing invented by Google. \ 🐚//(1+sqrt(5))/2 hth \ gblh//Gblh but less helpful. \ hth//hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. \ dark water//Dark water is an instadeath terrain type in Game Boy games that would represent lava if you had lots of imaginati
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20:42:50 <orby> Has anyone put any serious thought into whether or not harmful brainfuck is turing complete?
20:43:07 <orby> It's actually quite interesting imo
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20:59:51 <Warrigal_> Hmmm. I look at it and I think, yeah, it probably is.
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21:00:24 <Warrigal_> No obvious obstacles to Turing-completeness.
21:01:09 <orby> I think it certainly might be, but it's not immediately clear how to do things like loop n times
21:01:54 <Warrigal_> Actually, it's not obvious that "initial setup" is possible.
21:02:28 <moony> 'harmful brainfuck'? Link me. Sounds intresting.
21:02:44 <Warrigal_> Like, suppose I want to initialize the first 128 cells to 128 in a reasonably concise way.
21:02:49 <moony> or rather, i'll link myself.
21:02:50 <Warrigal_> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Harmful_Brainfuck
21:03:14 <Warrigal_> I mean, it's not immediately obvious that it's even possible to jump back to the beginning of the program.
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21:03:34 <Warrigal_> And to subsequently continue in a reasonable manner.
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21:04:42 <orby> Even something as simple as a conditional jump seems tricky
21:05:50 <zzo38> Now I made program converting Netpbm formats into farbfeld (I already had the program converting the other way; now I have both way)
21:05:50 <orby> Say we want to jump if the current cell is zero and otherwise not
21:05:59 <moony> You could do a conditional jump via, well, trampolines. Just think of it how a GPU programmer might think of it, it looks like it'll become clearer that way. (GPU programming has no conditionals, or at least it didnt for a long time)
21:06:23 <moony> orby, that case seems impossible, tho. ):
21:06:40 <Warrigal_> Well, you don't need that kind of conditional jump, though.
21:06:56 <Warrigal_> You could, say, represent false as 64 and true as 128.
21:06:57 <orby> Yeah, I suppose not
21:07:16 <Warrigal_> As long as you can implement logic gates and whatnot operating on that, you're pretty golden.
21:07:38 <orby> Hmm, yeah you've got the right idea
21:07:54 <Warrigal_> But it would be nice to be able to simulate constant jumps.
21:07:55 <moony> a simple NOT gate can perform boolean logic. (My proof? Minecraft's redstone torches.)
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21:08:12 <moony> a simple not gate looks possible here
21:08:16 <moony> and it probably is.
21:08:43 <moony> if you can prove a boolean notgate exists, its turing complete.
21:08:50 <moony> and thats only one way to do it.
21:08:52 <Warrigal_> You can simulate constant jumps by just keeping particular constant values nearby the tape pointer... as long as you can set up those constant values in the first place.
21:09:15 <Warrigal_> Surely the redstone torches aren't *just* a NOT gate. Like, they can have multiple inputs, right?
21:09:43 <moony> Warrigal_, not directly. Altho, good point. Wasnt thinking about that part :P OR and NOT.
21:09:44 <Warrigal_> If all you have is NOT gates and composition, then there are only two functions you can make.
21:10:00 <orby> or and not is functionally complete though
21:10:16 <orby> but you need more than functional completeness to be turing complete of course
21:11:42 <moony> i'll just step out for now. Too many videogames. *wonders how minecraft computers are turing complete with only NOT and OR)
21:12:12 <orby> I too have heard that minecraft computers are turing complete, but I don't know much about how they work
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21:13:05 <orby> I think harmful brainfuck is especially interesting because it seems like there is ample room for minimization
21:13:13 <orby> which is a bit of a fetish of mine
21:13:43 * moony almost imagined how that could be fetishified.
21:13:51 <orby> figure of speech
21:14:33 <orby> Off the bat we can drop - because the cells wrap around
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21:14:55 <orby> and we can combine >+
21:15:07 <orby> which brings it down to 3 commands pretty easily
21:15:26 <orby> I'm wondering if it's possible to combine < and *
21:16:22 <moony> oh no. a minimizer, hide before he minimizes you!
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21:17:25 <moony> hey, wait i have bait for him. orby, here, go minimize Javascript.
21:18:23 <moony> orby, now try and outdo JSFuck.
21:18:35 <orby> haven't seen that, in the wiki?
21:19:16 <moony> https://esolangs.org/wiki/JSFuck
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21:20:25 <orby> that's pretty awesome
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21:48:06 <moony> new favorite esolang: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ecstatic
21:48:10 <Soni> I like whitespace
21:48:12 <moony> > ...Minor setback
21:48:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘...’
21:48:25 <moony> oh, sorry lambdabot
21:48:43 <Soni> valid lua string literals can contain valid whitespace
21:49:11 <Soni> (without it becoming part of the string)
21:49:38 <Soni> http://www.lua.org/manual/5.2/manual.html
21:49:46 <Soni> same in the lua 5.3 manual
21:50:04 <Soni> sadly it doesn't work in lua 5.1
21:50:29 <Soni> (now if only whitespace could be used in making malware...)
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22:07:52 <Warrigal_> Say, that reminds me of a quirk of Lua I found out about recently.
22:08:09 <Warrigal_> Lua is one of those rare languages where statements don't need explicit terminators *and* whitespace doesn't matter.
22:10:18 <Warrigal_> This, on the other hand, is a runtime error:
22:11:25 <Warrigal_> "x = true y = true (print)(y)" is parsed as "x = true; y = true; (print)(y)", whereas "x = true y = x (print)(y)" is parsed as "x = true; y = x(print)(y)".
22:11:48 <Warrigal_> So you get the error "stdin:1: attempt to call global 'x' (a boolean value)".
22:12:19 <Warrigal_> This gives the same runtime error: x = true x()
22:12:27 <Warrigal_> But this is a syntax error: x = true true()
22:13:34 <Warrigal_> The reason for all of this is that it's syntactically illegal to use a boolean literal as the function in a function call.
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22:24:21 <Soni> Warrigal_: x = print (function() end)() does not do what you think it does
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22:32:28 <zzo38> The OASYS compiler doesn't even have explicit terminators (nor does it need parentheses or commas around function arguments, and actually doesn't even accept commas), so if you name a property the same as a global variable or method or whatever, you can have something going wrong.
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22:35:26 <Soni> power went out
22:39:12 <Warrigal_> Soni: I think it does do what I think it does. :D
22:39:29 <Soni> Warrigal_: and what's that?
22:39:30 <Warrigal_> I think it calls print with function() end, then calls the result with no arguments, then assigns that result into x.
22:39:47 <Warrigal_> Except I think that the second call will produce an error and so the third thing won't happen.
22:39:49 <Soni> it's really annoying when you love anonymous recursive functions
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05:49:11 <zzo38> Now I made a program to encode XZIP picture library format (I had previously written the decoder). The format is so obscure that these might be the only programs in existence that support this format (although Infocom probably used to have others, but they have been lost).
05:50:02 <zzo38> (Also, only a single file of this format exists, as far as I know, called "font2.dat".)
05:56:31 <zzo38> This "font2.dat" file contains five pictures: "knife.qqq", which has a bad drawing of a knife, and the text "ZORK A New Beginning"; "tiny.qqq", which is a 23x11 picture which is blank except for a stroke on the left;
05:57:42 <zzo38> "circles.qqq", which has some circles, the text "CIRCLES" (including the quotation marks) and "This is an example of a title"; "maze.qqq", which has a spiral with a house in the middle, and what I think is a bad drawing of a mouse, labeled "Mickey"; and "water.qqq", which is a bad drawing of some water.
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13:09:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: so it uses logo-like syntax?
13:15:36 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
13:15:41 <b_jonas> that doesn't exist, right?
13:15:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bobadventureslist: not found
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17:40:34 <zzo38> b_jonas: So what uses logo-like syntax? The pictures I described are a binary file. The encoder/decoder is documented at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ffxzip
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17:59:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: I didn't mean the image compression. "<zzo38> The OASYS compiler doesn't even have explicit terminators (nor does it need parentheses or commas around function arguments, and actually doesn't even accept commas), so if you name a property the same as a global variable or method or whatever, you can have something going wrong."
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18:01:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know logo syntax, so I don't know.
18:02:12 <zzo38> However, here is an example program: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#OASYS_.28OAC.29
18:03:11 <zzo38> (All of the line breaks are optional; it doesn't care about line breaks.)
18:03:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: close enough then, for my purposes
18:08:15 <zzo38> It also does no optimizations; duplicate string literals will be given different index numbers, and if a "verbs" list contains a variable name, the variable name will be placed into the vocabulary list even though at runtime it won't accept any phrases containing the variable name as valid input.
18:11:09 <zzo38> The code below that one is pretty much the same thing but a different programming language that compiles into the same binary format, but the result is somewhat more optimized; the first code compiles "value == -1 or value == 256" into the two checks followed by an OR and jumps past the code if true, while the second one checks those two conditions and jumps part the RP (return from procedure) if either is true.
18:13:07 <zzo38> (The OASYS compiler has no reserved words either)
18:14:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: does it have user-defined functions with prefix syntax and arbitrary arity? user-defined two-argument functions with infix syntax?
18:14:49 <HackEgo> Golf is the shortest game known. The goal is to get a ball into a hole with a single stroke.
18:17:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: There are only methods, although all classes share the same methods. All methods other than init must be called with an object to the left, and the arguments to the right. (In the case of init, the object to the left is allowed to be null.) When the user invokes a method without using a comma, the value of the global variable "player" is used as the "this".
18:18:02 <zzo38> If a comma is used, then the part before the comma is resolved as a class name, the method "select_addressee" (or "&#" in OAA) is called on every object of that class until it returns nonzero, and then uses that object as the "this" of the method named after the comma.
18:18:07 <b_jonas> then I was wrong, it's not like logo syntax
18:19:20 <zzo38> There is also no forward declarations; you must define a function before another function that calls it can be defined.
18:28:05 <zzo38> (Also, the picture format I described above isn't compressed)
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22:19:31 <zzo38> My GURPS character has a "Enemies" disadvantage, and in this case neither he nor I know who they are, but I wrote down on a paper, some list of the possibilities.
22:19:39 <zzo38> (These aren't all of the possibilities, but some.)
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23:26:27 <zzo38> - A group of Infinity or Centrum agents who believe Ziveruskex known the Secret (or will soon find it or help someone to, somehow) and wish to discredit, recruit, kill, memory erasure, go to Coventry, or some such.
23:28:05 <zzo38> - A case of mistaken identity. A thief of same species stole the man's stuff.
23:28:18 <zzo38> Do you like this? I have more, too.
23:31:53 <zzo38> - Ziveruskex had previously eaten some of the man's blood (or that of his horse, relative, etc) and now he wants revenge.
23:32:09 <zzo38> - Someone wants to steal Ziveruskex's spellbook, and/or possibly other stuff too.
23:32:16 <zzo38> - They want to play chess, to the death.
23:33:39 <zzo38> - Ziveruskex is the first character of this species the observer has seen and now they try to examine him too closely.
23:33:58 <zzo38> - They want human will be best at mathematics and science, and want to stop these monster to be too good at it.
23:34:20 <zzo38> - Some magic or psychic control went wrong, and due to Ziveruskex's Truename, now they want to attack or seek Ziveruskex instead of what was intended.
23:37:02 <zzo38> - It is Bob's boss, who wishes to make Ziveruskex's job more difficult (Bob may be secretly in on it, or maybe not).
23:37:18 <zzo38> - Ziveruskex's wing (or antenna or other body part) is exactly the size they need.
23:37:54 <zzo38> - A librarian who owns a library Ziveruskex had previously entered wants to force him to pay the entry fee, even though nobody else has ever been charged before.
23:38:10 <zzo38> - It is the Catholic Church. (Maybe they want to get him because he wrote something.)
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02:57:33 <zzo38> Finally, I got the highlighting of trailing spaces in vim to work the way I wanted it to.
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03:25:17 <zzo38> (Doing this involves using the "conceal" mechanism.)
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05:41:16 <oerjan> oh no, fungot is afraid of crickets :(
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08:12:41 <zzo38> What (if any) is the syntax for comments in XPM2?
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11:47:05 <HackEgo> 1/2:xml//XML stands for "X-treme Mega Language (of Awesomeness)" \ ub//ub is a saner hub. \ dynamic-unwind//dynamic-unwind is just like dynamic-wind except that it's a different sort of weather. \ tur//To tur is not to flas. \ elrond//Elrond is a rogue program originally created to police the Matrix, eventually gaining increased individua
11:47:07 <HackEgo> 2/2:lity and becoming a threat to the Machines themselves.
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12:40:30 <b_jonas> alias you_have_outlived_your_use=exit
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14:19:31 <Soni> is bdasm a thing yet?
14:25:58 <int-e> badly designed assembler?
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14:43:56 <lambdabot> Title: Society for the Protection of Nature in Lebanon – Strives to conserve biodi...
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16:52:12 <Soni> int-e: I'd ask for Organized Assembler but that one is too obvious
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17:51:47 <zzo38> I wrote a program to make XPM file, supporting XPM1, XPM2, and XPM3, although it look like ImageMagick only supports XPM3 (it misinterprets XPM1 as XBM, and does not recognize XPM2 at all; even if the file format is explicitly specified as XPM it still doesn't work)
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23:01:19 <Soni> int-e: still there?
23:03:53 <HackEgo> 1/2:i//I SIGNIFICAT NVMERVM VNVM \ roborosewater//RoboRosewater is generating random Magic: the Gathering cards, see https://mobile.twitter.com/roborosewater \ hexham//Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico \ hyperbolic group//Hyperbolic groups are the best groups there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer. \
23:03:55 <HackEgo> 2/2: atrix//Atrix is a brand of hand cream. Not to be confused with atriq.
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01:51:04 <boily> fungot: are you vegetarian?
01:51:05 <fungot> boily: mr president, the european union and, on the basis of article 100c of the treaty, insurance system reforms and policy are national responsibilities. emu leads to economic chaos, whilst proceeding with emu is precisely to go further than the commission's original proposal with regard to the convention.
01:59:06 <quintopia> your t's are like e's and your g's are like z's
01:59:43 <quintopia> it took me some research to determine that "sizhes" was "sights"
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02:01:40 <boily> at least it got to destination!
02:03:14 <boily> `le/rn sizhes//You may need to adjust your sights to understand sizhes.
02:03:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'sizhes': You may need to adjust your sights to understand sizhes.
02:05:15 <quintopia> `le/rn beer/beer never ships from quebec
02:05:15 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
02:05:30 <quintopia> `le/rn beer//beer never ships from quebec
02:05:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'beer': beer never ships from quebec
02:10:52 <boily> `le/rn beer/Beer never ships from Québec.
02:10:53 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
02:11:03 <boily> `le/rn beer//Beer never ships from Québec.
02:11:06 <HackEgo> Relearned 'beer': Beer never ships from Québec.
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08:22:58 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
08:23:07 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
08:23:36 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s/sanity, /&Italian, /
08:23:39 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
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11:42:23 <Neo1> come on everybody )
11:42:32 <Neo1> what are you doing here?
12:13:14 <Slereah> Profiting of my first day of holidays
12:13:23 <Slereah> (I'm sorting the science papers on my computer)
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23:20:42 <imode> is multiset rewriting turing complete?
23:22:42 <ais523> what definition of "rewriting" are you using? something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran is Turing-complete
23:22:59 <ais523> and was accidentally rediscovered by oerjan as a rewriting-like system before he discovered it already existed
23:27:02 <imode> replacement rules, but not over strings.
23:28:45 <ais523> Fractran's is literally just specifying a multiset to remove and a multiset to add in its place (with a command doing nothing if you can't do that)
23:28:53 <ais523> that seems like the multiset equivalent of a string rewriting rule
23:29:18 <imode> mm, kind of. as in, you have a set of elements you're searching for on the right hand side, and a list of elements to replace them with on the left hand side.
23:29:39 <imode> "abc" -> "def" is equivalent to "acb" -> "fed", etc.
23:30:01 <alercah> imode: this sounds like fractran, yeah
23:30:07 <imode> only the quantity of each element matters in the replacement, not the order.
23:30:15 <ais523> this sounds even more like fractran
23:30:33 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system
23:30:48 <imode> a more interesting example, but I'm not dealing with membranes.
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23:51:19 <imode> it makes me wonder if the ordering of strings is even required.
23:51:33 <imode> to be turing complete, that is.
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00:01:56 <ais523> I'm tempted to just link you to Fractran again :-P
00:02:52 <ais523> (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies)
00:05:58 <imode> right, but fractran isn't quite like what I'm thinking.
00:06:09 <imode> it's not that equivalent.
00:09:20 <imode> well, fractran's state is a single number, while a multiset rewriting system's state is, well, a multiset.
00:09:26 <imode> it's very different.
00:09:27 <myname> abc -> def perfectly translates to 7*11*13/1*3*5
00:09:46 <ais523> imode: convert it to a prime factorisation
00:09:55 <ais523> the fact that you can treat that as a single number is mostly just coincidence
00:10:15 <ais523> actual fractran programming uses the multiset view pretty much all the time
00:10:20 <imode> so you're just choosing primes as the alphabet.
00:10:41 <imode> alright, I can see that. creative.
00:10:51 <imode> leibniz would be proud.
00:12:40 <quintopia> generalized collatz functions are p cool guys. they golf well and dont afraid of any computable n7mber
00:13:15 <imode> that however lends itself to larger and larger numbers which is rather inconvenient.
00:13:37 <imode> but that's really simple, actually.
00:14:01 <shachaf> ais523: whoa, I didn't know order wasn't required for Fractran
00:14:34 <imode> I can see why it doesn't, because prime factorization's order doesn't matter, and that naturally maps to a multiset.
00:14:58 <shachaf> I mean the order of instructions.
00:15:12 <ais523> shachaf: it's required by the spec, but you can change that part of the spec and it still works
00:15:14 <shachaf> Or whatever those are called. Fractions.
00:16:01 <ais523> I tend to program fractran and thue the same way, i.e. so that the order of evaluation is irrelevant to the program
00:16:22 <ais523> fractran is actually probably a more convenient language, thue has bad wire-crossing-like problems
00:16:31 <ais523> in that trying to get data from one end of the program to the other is a pain
00:16:36 <ais523> you can do it, just normally need a huge number of cases
00:16:53 <shachaf> Since when do people talk about esolangs in here?
00:17:43 <imode> ais523: yeah that was my initial gripe. because ordering mattered you're essentially constructing a 1D CA with an arbitrary neighborhood.
00:17:50 <imode> hard to program in.
00:18:15 <ais523> shachaf: it's more likely when I'm in here (admittedly, not /much/ more likely, and in this case imode started it)
00:18:20 <ais523> I like ontopic discussion though
00:18:25 <imode> whereas an unordered set (or in this case, an unordered multiset) is more convenient.
00:18:56 <imode> it's not hard to take a unary representation of a number and double it for example, but in thue the representation becomes unwieldy.
00:19:53 <ais523> actually in thue that's pretty easy if you have a marker at each end
00:19:59 <ais523> just run a cursor along the number
00:20:21 <ais523> and get the markers at each end to handle the cursor appropriately (they'll need to do something to fit this into your program's control flow)
00:26:32 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis leibniz and godel have something in common, in that they fetishized about primes and their properties for uniqueness. :P
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00:29:42 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA, his523, imellode, mynamello, helloochaf.
00:29:58 <imode> boily: is there a bot capable of that in here?
00:30:18 <ais523> I don't see what benefit a bot woudl have
00:30:29 <ais523> although hackego is capable of just about anything as long as the output's a function of the input
00:30:54 <imode> automation is what keeps bored minds busy. :P
00:31:16 <boily> automating porthelloes isn't trivial.
00:34:17 <quintopia> its almost like correctly conjugating present tense verbs and deciding when to use an article on a noun simultaneously
00:35:05 <quintopia> boily has tried to describe his porthello algorithm and it mostly comes out "however sounds good to me"
00:35:19 <boily> something like that.
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00:41:29 <ais523> the algorithm only seems unclear in cases where the original word doesn't have exactly one "o" pronounced as such
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01:46:39 <oerjan> <ais523> and was accidentally rediscovered by oerjan as a rewriting-like system before he discovered it already existed <-- no, that's a misunderstanding, i had definitely heard of the fraction version (from the math institute's encyclopedia iirc) - i just had no idea what it was _called_.
01:47:01 <ais523> so you called it something else
01:47:21 <oerjan> and included a symbolic format
01:50:16 <oerjan> <ais523> (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies) <-- istr we found out that was false at some point.
01:51:05 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, now you mention it, perhaps I misremembered
01:51:24 <ais523> in which case I've been spreading misinformation
01:51:34 <ais523> (very slowly, on and off over the last several years)
01:51:49 <ais523> the problem being that you can't prove, without some evaluation order restriction, that a particular element /isn't/ contained
01:52:45 <shachaf> whoa, just when I thought I was informed.
01:54:31 <ais523> this is one of those proofs that you can remember how it works when you're reminded it exists, but be implicitly certain with no evidence that the opposite is true the rest of the time
01:57:04 <ais523> I guess it's because I think of the problem as being control flow (which is trivially fixed), not detecting zero
01:57:41 <oerjan> i don't remember 100% how the proof went
01:59:35 <ais523> if a fraction can run at p**0 (* other factors) it can also run at p**n (* the same other factors) for higher n; this means that you can't set a value to 0 without already having a defined maximum value for it
01:59:42 <ais523> that's not the full proof but it's the basic argument
01:59:47 <ais523> and everthing else was just details from there
02:01:52 <oerjan> something like, if there's a non-halting computation then it must at some point produce a number divisible by a previous one.
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02:02:40 <oerjan> and then _everything_ divisible by the previous one can avoid halting
02:05:21 <oerjan> but there's something like a compactness argument hiding in the details, i smell
02:07:04 <oerjan> or perhaps it was linear algebra.
02:12:42 <oerjan> hm i vaguely thought there _was_ a porthello command. btwohily.
02:12:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ello: not found
02:13:12 <HackEgo> 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ allquotes \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ llist \ roll \ tell \ wellcome \ willkommen
02:14:06 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8-ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 Feb 10 2017 bin/8ball
02:14:35 <oerjan> `` ls -l bin/8* | cat -v
02:14:36 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8-ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 Feb 10 2017 bin/8^Oball
02:15:36 <ais523> why is there a literal control-O in the name of that file?
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02:16:51 <oerjan> `mkx bin/8-ball/8ball "$@"
02:16:51 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
02:16:58 <oerjan> `mkx bin/8-ball//8ball "$@"
02:17:43 <oerjan> (i prefer that way of avoiding duplication because links have been known to break)
02:18:47 <HackEgo> autowelcome \ delquote \ delvs \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ elcome \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ help \ makelist \ makelistlist \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ relcome \ reload \ rwelcome \ tell \ velcome \ velkomin \ velkommen \ welcome \ welcome \ Welcome \ welcöme \ welkom \ wellcome
02:19:01 <oerjan> `` cd bin; ls *el* | grep -v elc
02:19:02 <HackEgo> delquote \ delvs \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ help \ makelist \ makelistlist \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ reload \ tell \ velkomin \ velkommen \ welkom \ wellcome
02:19:25 <oerjan> oh well i guess that was about all
02:19:56 <HackEgo> airport \ airport-lookup \ joustreport \ sport
02:20:00 <ais523> that's probably what you're remembering
02:20:19 <oerjan> no, i recall something doing a more advanced attempt
02:22:34 <shachaf> oerjan: having been pranked, you've joined the ranks of the pranksters? tdh
02:43:33 <ais523> eso idea: int : float :: interface : floaterface, now we just need to work out what a floaterface is
02:43:35 <imode> huh. so multiset rewriting is essentially just doing register machine operations..
02:45:35 <ais523> I guess a floaterface is mostly a generalization of an interface (can represent any interface as long as it's not too large), but also can represent partial interfaces, and becomes approximate in some cases?
02:47:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure how to related interfaces to integers
02:47:56 <shachaf> I don't think interfaces are usually totally ordered
02:48:02 <shachaf> That could be interesting in itself
02:50:27 <doesthiswork> I just watched a youtube video without adblock on. There are "buy now" advertisements directly beneath the video now
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02:56:42 <oerjan> . o O ( interface Foo extends NaN )
03:01:53 <oerjan> doesthiswork: that's just one kind of ad youtube uses. afair it only does that when there isn't a full video ad.
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03:07:53 <shachaf> Taneb: please write welcome.it twh
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09:56:45 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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21:23:04 <^v> i've mastered SKI calc
21:23:30 <^v> it's time to transcend existence into the esoteric realm
21:24:00 <myname> huh? is ski conscidered hard in any way?
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21:29:20 <^v> myname, succ = S(K(S(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K))))))(S(S(K(S))(S(K(S(K(S))))(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K)))))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K))))))(K(K(S(K)(K)))))
21:29:28 <^v> all this does is take a church number and add 1
21:30:28 <^v> its complicated af
21:30:57 <myname> i mean, yeah, i couldn't write it out freely, but conversion from and to lambda calculus is pretty easy
21:31:24 <^v> yeah i'm making my language convert lambda calc to SKI
21:33:44 <^v> if the existing output wasnt already horrendous
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23:09:30 <int-e> that seems overly complicated, hmm
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23:23:41 <int-e> ^v: how about S (S (K S) K)
23:24:28 <int-e> (which is much smaller than I expected, yay)
23:24:36 <Guest95245> Converting lambda to SKI is trivial, though the hard part is finding an expression that's short
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00:30:12 <boily> shachaf: helloochaf. ysac has corrupted me; I whangjangle my food.
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00:33:46 <imode> boily: do you suck at cooking.
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00:37:24 <boily> imode: according to a panel of reliable sources, apparently not.
00:37:32 <boily> (even if my dashi is weak.)
00:44:20 <imode> boily: then you cannot whangjangle. you aren't qualified.
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00:57:30 * imode wonders that, if multiset rewriting corresponds to working with register machines, what does regular set rewriting correspond to?
01:01:27 <shachaf> Machines with 1-bit registers?
01:02:18 <imode> that's kind of what I thought. loooooots of registers. :P
01:02:59 <imode> wonder if that's still TC, though. I imagine you could form rule 110 with that with some.. effort.
01:04:21 <imode> or build the semantics of a multiset rewriting system on top of that.
01:04:52 <imode> i.e treat a span of bits as one binary number and use that to represent one register. that'd be hellish.
01:05:16 <shachaf> A finite number of finite registers still isn't going to be enough on its own.
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01:06:02 <imode> but then you just keep expanding the number of possible symbols.
01:06:09 <imode> so you end up with a really large alphabet.
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01:53:07 * oerjan wonders how official boily's panel was
02:55:41 <zzo38> Why is ImageMagick not reading XPM format 1 and 2?
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05:53:48 <imode> I wonder why FRACTRAN hasn't gotten as crazy a following as something like brainfuck.
05:54:15 <oerjan> you have to understand prime numbers to use it hth
05:54:47 <imode> not.. really. you just have to understand that each prime is a unique symbol and choose your alphabet mapping to each prime carefully
05:55:02 <imode> that's actually the really simple part. the odd part is dealing with pattern matching on registers and shifting values around.
05:55:14 <imode> it's not hard to design a compiler that will do that kind of thing for you.
05:56:24 <imode> I mean you can take any fractran program, look at each fraction, extract the prime factorization of it, convert that into a suitable symbol set (or a set of registers), and build a macro language on top of the resulting (somewhat more legible) rewrite rules.
05:56:48 <imode> I would've expected that a GoL implementation would have surfaced eventually. kind of surprised that I haven't found one yet.
06:03:13 <oerjan> obligatory accompaniment to today's freefall comic http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time
06:06:16 <imode> "For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes." good wisdom right there.
06:30:12 * imode wonders if fractran's rules can be unordered.
06:30:58 <oerjan> imode: oh you didn't see my comment the other day ... they cannot, although i don't remember exactly how the proof went.
06:31:39 <imode> oerjan: interesting. I wonder what modifications would be required to make them unordered. probably something akin to a P system.
06:31:54 <imode> where the resulting rewrites determine which classes of rules get applied.
06:33:31 <oerjan> well you need a way to say that a rule won't be applied if it's divisable by something.
06:34:08 <imode> so rule dependencies.
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06:34:25 <imode> or rather, inverse dependencies.. I guess.
06:34:45 <imode> "do this if these primes are present, but if these are, don't."
06:35:00 <oerjan> in some sense, fractran's linear order is the _simplest_ option for that.
06:35:17 <imode> yeah, because you can prioritize rules.
06:35:38 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system#Example_computation this is also an option.
06:51:21 <imode> parallel fractran. hmm.
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07:02:02 <shachaf> One thing I like about FRACTRAN is that it doesn't seem like a programming language at all.
07:02:15 <shachaf> If you make the rules slightly more contrived it loses that.
07:02:23 <oerjan> fizzie: hm i suspect the wiki bridge has croaked
07:02:33 <imode> well, it's pretty much just unordered string rewriting.
07:03:08 <oerjan> are you sure Taneb knows italian
07:03:35 <oerjan> isn't it a bit too sexy language
07:04:05 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/Ngevd/status/918012736721883137 hth
07:04:45 <shachaf> Did Taneb invent modal logic?
07:06:17 <oerjan> hm Taneb seems to have aged. shocking.
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12:08:19 <HackEgo> 1/1:kallisti//kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity. \ @//@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour. \ cia//CIA sees it all. \ lens//A lens is just a store comonad coalgebra. \ fourth wisdom//.wisdoms other the all upon builds wisdom fourth The
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12:26:26 <fizzie> @tell oerjan It might've been because I had to restart HackEgo. Did the same for the bridge as well, maybe it works now.
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13:56:28 <b_jonas> fungot, in Greek mythology, is there such a thing as artifact weapon or armor forged by mortals, or do all of them have to be forged by a deity, usually Hēphaistos or Pallas Athēnē?
13:56:29 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, on a point of order, and i regret not having been used to ban tv advertising and indirect advertising. it has not yet put forward any reasoned objections within the 30-day period; secondly, certainty as to the future, within the meaning defined in the treaty.
13:59:10 <int-e> the longwinded europarl style makes it abundantly clear that fungot cannot form any coherent thought.
13:59:11 <fungot> int-e: i do not know for how long it will take shape exactly is still to be done to help us determine the real responsibilities of each of these points is new to us on the issue of alcohol, but also for all those who have flouted the rules in relation to the completion of the internal market.
13:59:39 <int-e> (though arguably that is also true for many politicians)
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15:04:24 <hkgit03> The next logical letter would be v of course.
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15:08:23 <int-e> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWDlaXrJOI4 hmmmm
15:08:54 <int-e> strange stuff, but indeed it does include the russian alphabet.
15:09:36 <HackEgo> [U+0430 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A] [U+0431 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER BE] [U+0432 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER VE] [U+0433 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER GHE] [U+0434 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DE]
15:10:04 <b_jonas> int-e: use the full alphabet. abvgdeëžzijklmnoprstufhcčšŝʺyʹèûâ
15:10:58 <hkgit03> That is not the russian alphabet, is it?
15:11:42 <b_jonas> hkgit03: it is, in ISO 9 transcription
15:11:47 <int-e> I can see the resemblence
15:12:59 <b_jonas> or maybe you want the serbian alphabet, a b v g d đ e ž z i j k l lj m n nj o p r s t ć u f h c č dž š
15:13:07 <b_jonas> or one of the many other alphabets that start with a b v g d
15:13:33 <hkgit03> Of course. That was exactly what I was going for.
15:15:48 <int-e> abgde is a logical order for an alphabet
15:16:18 <int-e> the abcde order should have a different name ;-)
15:17:33 <b_jonas> int-e: the order is not really logical, more like traditional, inherited from the Phoenicians, and now various variants of it are used by tons of alphabets, sometimes multiple different orders for the same language
15:22:58 <b_jonas> the battery of my mobile phone not only drains faster but also gets warm if I listen to music all day
15:23:29 <b_jonas> still not too hot, just warm
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18:21:57 <zzo38> I do not have the file "/usr/lib/X11/rgb.txt" in my computer. Is there another directory it may be under instead?
18:23:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: try /usr/share/X11/rgb.txt
18:23:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: these days unix distros put everything in usr that is shared among all machines of all architectures in /usr/share
18:23:59 <b_jonas> and architecture-specific stuff only in /usr/lib and /usr/libexec
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18:25:16 <b_jonas> I think it started back when this was used to spare disk space by mounting /usr/share and /usr through NFS, but mounting the same /usr/share on multiple machines, or something, but these days more and more stuff is split to multiple directories according to architectures, mostly so that you can have x86_32 and x86_64 libraries ran on the same machine or something,
18:25:27 <b_jonas> so the share split turns out to be very useful.
18:26:06 <b_jonas> Note that /usr has read-only data that can be shared among multiple machines of the same architecture in first place
18:26:24 <b_jonas> data specific to one machine goes to /var or /etc
18:28:00 <b_jonas> debian often patches install directories from upstream packages to conform to these directory structures
18:28:20 <b_jonas> although most software these days already use the right directories anyway
18:29:02 <b_jonas> and most allow overrides via make variables or configure options or something, because GNU encouraged that in the guidelines they sneakily put into the gnu make reference docs
18:29:44 <b_jonas> but of course in most free software it's easy to modify paths in the source
18:30:36 <zzo38> The program I am writing doesn't actually need to find the file anyways, since if it is wanted the user will specify the filename explicitly anyways, but it is helpful to know where it is installed.
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18:33:07 <zzo38> (I am writing a program to read XPM pictures. I already wrote one to write XPM pictures.)
18:33:28 <zzo38> (In both cases, all three formats are implemented.)
18:34:54 <zzo38> ImageMagick supports only format 3, while Netpbm supports only format 1 and 3, it seems, and neither support monochrome mode.
18:37:42 <b_jonas> do people even still use xbm and xpm pictures for anything? I thought those were formats for icons on machines with little memory and low bitdepth monitors.
18:38:11 <zzo38> XPM2 seems a reasonable format for using with a text editor, at least.
18:41:12 <zzo38> They can also be used including in C programs (except XPM2).
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18:57:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53202&oldid=52782 * HereToAnnoy * (+31) wip
18:58:15 <fizzie> Looks like it's working again.
19:18:17 <pikhq> Once upon a time they were very useful as a lowest-common-denominator file format.
19:18:27 <pikhq> I'm not sure who uses it much right now, though.
19:21:09 <\oren\> pikhq: yeah the standard "output an image ad-hoc" format is PBM
19:21:13 <b_jonas> still no word of a newIOCCC
19:21:50 <pikhq> PBM is a bit of an irritating format, though.
19:21:54 <zzo38> pikhq: As I mentioned, for including in C codes and to be suitable for editing with a text editor.
19:22:02 <pikhq> It *looks* simpler than it is.
19:22:16 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, yes, I know why you'd want to use it. :) I just don't know if anyone does.
19:22:19 <zzo38> For "output an image ad-hoc" I prefer farbfeld.
19:22:56 <pikhq> Though for outputting only, PBM is similarly simple.
19:23:14 <zzo38> (Although I wrote dvipbm before farbfeld was invented, and anyways the printer driver needs PBM.)
19:23:14 <pikhq> The file format just has some surprising complexity when reading it.
19:23:19 <pikhq> (comments, for instance)
19:23:38 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that is true, for outputting only PBM is simple enough (and supports multi-page, which is needed for using with printing).
19:24:48 <b_jonas> I find PNM a bit limiting, so I prefer to write raw images, and send the metadata separately, such as in the command line of ffmpeg or imagemagick
19:25:04 <b_jonas> and the same for reading it
19:26:00 <zzo38> b_jonas: Why won't you use farbfeld instead then? (ImageMagick does not implement farbfeld, but it ought to! Write a module for it if you want it)
19:26:06 <b_jonas> PNM only supports one endianness and it's the wrong one, only supports grayscale or RGB, not other channel configurations, etc
19:26:54 <zzo38> Nevertheless I intend these Farbfeld Utilities program will including conversion to/from any format, whether common (such as PNG) or obscure (such as XZIP Picture Library format).
19:28:05 <pikhq> b_jonas: PAM fixes the channel configuration bit.
19:28:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: besides the bit depth (which PNM can hvae multiple), I want to use the exact channel configuration (eg. possibly bgr, bgr0, bgra, rgb, argb, alpha only, yuv444) and interlacing (channels of a pixel together, channels for whole image one after another) that
19:28:29 <pikhq> As for the endianness... Bi-endian file formats can fuck off.
19:28:45 <b_jonas> are the most convenient for the particular use. a program like ffmpeg or imagemagick can use whatever configuration I want, and handle the conversions itself.
19:28:54 <b_jonas> why bother with the conversion myself when they can do it already?
19:29:06 <zzo38> Yes, OK, you can do that if you wish, too.
19:29:39 <b_jonas> oh, and also padding at the end of lines.
19:30:44 <b_jonas> also, ffmpeg and imagemagick (imagemagick in any way, as in, command line, high-level C api, C++ api) can do some simple filtering steps that I often want to do right before reading or writing the image, such as cropping or resampling to smaller before write, rotating or flipping before read.
19:31:16 <zzo38> (I could also provide a program in Farbfeld Utilities that will support raw non-indexed pictures; I already have a file for raw indexed pictures. Although there is also ff-swizzle. And in the case just of "bgr" or "rgb" simple 8-bits-per-channel, together, you could probably use ff-scanf to do this too (although I have not tried).)
19:31:48 <pikhq> It amuses me that, if you don't mind having a somewhat silly and large output, you can reasonably do uncompressed PNG output pretty easily.
19:31:55 <b_jonas> I actually have a simple C++ wrapper that spawns an ffmpeg process to read or write an image or video, and allows a variety of these options,
19:32:00 <pikhq> (it's more complex than Farbfeld or PNM, naturally, but it's not that hard)
19:32:12 <b_jonas> but only those options that I have needed so far, because ffmpeg has an infinity of useful options, so the simple wrapper won't ever cover it all.
19:32:26 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose you can do that if you like to do (although then, I think, you should need the checksum?)
19:32:37 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, you do need the checksums.
19:32:52 <pikhq> It's CRC-32 and Adler32 both.
19:33:04 <pikhq> They're both pretty easy to write, though.
19:33:14 <pikhq> I will freely grant this is not the most useful thing in the world.
19:33:25 <pikhq> But it's pretty quick, and easier than using libpng.
19:34:51 <zzo38> Farbfeld Utilities "ffpng" program can do that though, with a command such as "ffpng b0 c2 e-1 f0" or such.
19:35:14 <b_jonas> pikhq: crc-32? what the heck?
19:35:42 <zzo38> ("b0" disables compression, "c2" specifies RGB, "e-1" forces it to use a single block, and "f0" disables filtering.)
19:36:03 <pikhq> b_jonas: It's a standard checksum, and PNG requires it for each chunk.
19:36:13 <b_jonas> I didn't know png had that
19:36:40 <pikhq> Adler32 comes into it because the contents of the image chunk(s) are just zlib streams.
19:38:07 <b_jonas> I just didn't know there was an extra checksum
19:38:14 <b_jonas> do reader programs actually check that?
19:38:43 <pikhq> Also, every *single* chunk in PNG is CRC32'd.
19:38:45 <b_jonas> I mean, a browser can start displaying the image before having downloaded the whole thing, and usually most of the image is one chunk
19:38:58 <pikhq> (there's more chunks than just image data)
19:39:11 <pikhq> Yeah, but they barf if the checksum turns out to have been wrong, generally.
19:39:37 <pikhq> And there's reader programs that aren't browsers.
19:40:46 <b_jonas> mind you, I mostly just see truncated jpegs on the web, I don't remember having seen a truncated png
19:50:40 <zzo38> A few of my programs can work with multi-frame pictures, and generally expect the frames to be arranged in a vertical strip. (Although also a program is provided to convert this if needed.) For formats such as Famicom pattern tables, the reading is automatically like a vertical strip, and can write using a vertical strip as input too even if the height is unknown, because it is the order of the data already.
19:51:24 <zzo38> (Some other programs use a horizontal strip instead, although I think vertical strip format is more a more natural format.)
19:53:17 <zzo38> One feature of XPM that others usually don't have is customizable colours. Also, it can include a monochrome as well as a colour version in the same picture.
19:54:34 <zzo38> (As far as I know, other formats do not do this, except that the YZIP Picture Library format (not the XZIP format) allows palettes to include optional stipple patterns for use with monochrome display.)
19:55:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: for videos, the important constraints in my program is that (a) the video read and write is streaming, so if I write a long video, then only data for a few dozen frames is held in memory at a time,
19:56:07 <b_jonas> and (b) I don't spawn a program for each video frame, because that's slow.
19:56:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is correct, it make sense.
19:56:43 <b_jonas> by the way, my code does two more conveniences, although both are because ffmpeg can already easily do that:
19:57:03 <b_jonas> firstly, I can read or write multiple numbered image files with the same shape instead of a video,
19:57:09 <zzo38> (And the draft for the TAVERN picture format allows a picture to have any number of associated palettes, so you could have a different version of the picture (or just a different palette) for composite output, RGB output, monochrome, low resolution vs high resolution, etc.)
19:57:42 <b_jonas> and I can display image or video in a window instead of writing it to a file (useful because sometimes I want one, sometimes the other in the same program, for debugging)
19:58:45 <b_jonas> the C++ wrapper is needed because the ffmpeg interface is a bit... strange, and there's a lot of stupid workarounds needed, so the wrapper does the ones I've encountered so far
19:59:12 <b_jonas> but I got the ffmpeg devs to fix a bug or two I encountered in this, which is nice
20:06:03 <zzo38> You can tell me of other formats that you or someone else might want in Farbfeld Utilities, and/or to possibly contribute the codes for such formats. Currently it does not have many, and some can read only, and some can write only. (Some subformats also are currently not implemented, such as, cannot read bmp with RLE, and cannot use JPEG with 12-bits or arithmetic coding.
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20:10:03 <b_jonas> do we have a wisdom about this?
20:10:36 <zzo38> Add one if you know what to write about it
20:13:00 <int-e> I rather suspect that farbfeld is not vaporware.
20:13:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TwoFiftyFive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53203 * HereToAnnoy * (+1584) Created page with "TwoFiftyFive is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:HereToAnnoy]] with only two instructions and limited memory. ==Syntax== ===Instructions=== * Move instruction (<..."
20:14:36 <pikhq> It isn't, it's just niche.
20:14:38 <zzo38> One thing I can think of, is if there is some way to make the JPEG decoder so that (by user option) it can try to recover some of the quality of the picture if it was encoded with low quality, to make it less "blocky" output.
20:14:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53204&oldid=53203 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) minor formatting edit
20:14:45 <b_jonas> `slashlearn farbfeld//zzo38's Farbfeld utilities is a package of command-line programs (with rather strange command-line syntax) for manipulating images in a specific raw format called farbfeld. It's somewhat underdocumented. http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/home
20:14:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'farbfeld': zzo38's Farbfeld utilities is a package of command-line programs (with rather strange command-line syntax) for manipulating images in a specific raw format called farbfeld. It's somewhat underdocumented. http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/home
20:15:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53205&oldid=53204 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) another minor formatting edit
20:15:59 <zzo38> Yes, those things is true, that is OK.
20:16:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Focus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53206&oldid=53200 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) minor formatting edit
20:17:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: how do you use ffpng to write 8-bit per channel depth images instead of 16-bit channel deep?
20:17:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53207&oldid=53196 * HereToAnnoy * (+67) added TwoFiftyFive to contributions list
20:18:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: It will automatically do that if it can be done losslessly. (You can also explicitly specify by the use of the "c" option.)
20:19:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, nice, you've developped farbfeld.ui and its documentation a lot since I've last seen it
20:19:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but I don't know how to reduce an image to 8 bit per channle depth easily first
20:20:39 <b_jonas> c sets the color space and then the bit depth. nice
20:20:50 <zzo38> To reduce the image first, use "ff-poster 8", if you need to do that.
20:21:27 <b_jonas> since farbfeld format doesn't use premultiplied alpha, is there a program to turn all fully transparent pixels to black?
20:21:33 <b_jonas> to transparent black I mean
20:21:53 <b_jonas> so as to save space when writing in an image format that also doesn't use premultiplied alpha, such as png
20:22:08 <zzo38> No, although you are right, it can be a good idea.
20:22:35 <b_jonas> this could be an option in ffpng too of course
20:23:10 <zzo38> I will just make it a separate program I think
20:24:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, but note that you may have to do this after reducing bit depth for a true color (non-indexed) image
20:24:14 <b_jonas> so that's two extra steps for a 8-bit per channel deep png
20:24:36 <b_jonas> which is why it would be useful in ffpng
20:24:53 <b_jonas> if you make it a separate program, then offer a transparency value cutoff parameter too
20:25:10 <zzo38> OK, I will add a cutoff parameter (zero by default).
20:26:11 <b_jonas> and if you don't add an option to ffpng, then at least write about the correct pipeline for 8-bit per channel rgb with alpha in the docs of ffpng
20:26:44 <zzo38> Yes, OK I will do that (the wiki is editable by everyone though, so you can also write about it if you want to do so)
20:30:34 <zzo38> OK, I added "ff-transopt" program which does that.
20:31:56 <zzo38> OK, and now I added that note to the documentation of ffpng, too.
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21:11:58 <\oren\> lol I decreased the memory usage of a program by a factor of ten thousand
21:12:27 <\oren\> previously used 49 gigabytes, now uses 5.4 kilobytes
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21:14:31 <tswett> I just realized that it's possible to write the traditional call-with-current-continuation function in "fake Lua".
21:14:45 <zzo38> tswett: OK, how is that?
21:15:00 <tswett> That is, it's almost valid Lua code, but it does something illegal.
21:15:06 <tswett> Lemme see if I can write it out here.
21:16:26 <tswett> function call_cc(callback, arg) local result; function curr_cont(r) result = r; goto finish end; result = callback(curr_cont, arg); ::finish:: return result end
21:16:56 <tswett> I guess the "arg" bit is unnecessary, but kinda convenient.
21:17:58 <tswett> It's not legal Lua because you can't jump from an inner function into a label defined in the outer function.
21:19:00 <zzo38> Yes, and actually I think once I have suggested to add "goto" into JavaScript and to allow it to work like that in order to make up such thing, by making a kind of "evasive exceptions".
21:24:16 <tswett> Yeah, I guess Lua has two forms of "stack-subverting" control flow.
21:24:26 <tswett> Exceptions and coroutines.
21:31:21 <zzo38> Do you know what is the syntax for HSV colour codes in XPM file? The document just says that it is not implemented.
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23:04:49 <wob_jonas> I'm reading https://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas and lol on "four loop"
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23:26:57 <wob_jonas> What is the name of the theoerm that it's possible to write comments in any sane programming language that's expressive enough?
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23:44:19 <Guest95245> What if it's a language that only accepts non-alphabetic characters
23:49:21 <boily> the language, or the comment language?
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23:53:28 <lambdabot> fizzie said 11h 27m 2s ago: It might've been because I had to restart HackEgo. Did the same for the bridge as well, maybe it works now.
23:53:53 <shachaf> is that the command that reduces your messages
23:58:26 <oerjan> sheesh it's been a long time since i looked at my stackoverflow tab, there's a favorite edit from jan '16 i hadn't seen
23:59:13 <boily> hellørjan, helloochaf.
23:59:52 <wob_jonas> Are there programming languages where a team of programmers have to enter the program quickly on a guitar hero controller?
00:00:23 <oerjan> reputation and responses get notices if i'm on PPCG, but not favorites.
00:00:50 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, for favourites, you have to check your favourites tab in the profile. those don't send messages.
00:01:14 <oerjan> wob_jonas: and it's separate for each stackexchange site
00:02:13 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yeah. maybe you can write a third-party program to handle this. stackexchange has reasonably well documented apis for most things, except the chat.
00:15:49 <wob_jonas> although if you want to handle multiple SE sites, it gets slow even with a third-part app, because most of the apis access only one site
00:15:58 <wob_jonas> and the data dumps are per site too
00:17:38 <wob_jonas> And multiple sites does occur. I now have posts on 27 SE sites, not counting site metas and area 51.
00:17:48 <wob_jonas> Only one post on many of them, but still.
00:19:00 <oerjan> i'm just registered on five, anyhow. just checked and the only thing on the rest was a couple of rep notices
00:19:20 <wob_jonas> I'm registered to many more. Registration to additional sites is practically free.
00:19:27 <wob_jonas> But a registration itself doesn't mean much.
00:20:10 <wob_jonas> oerjan: on how many of those five sites do you actually have a question or answer or some other significant contribution?
00:24:13 <oerjan> four of them - the only site where i registered solely to upvote something is super user
00:24:30 <oerjan> because that site had solutions to several problems i've had with windows.
00:24:40 <oerjan> i have never asked a question anywhere.
00:25:44 <oerjan> and i believe i'm on code review solely because of an answer migrated from stackoverflow.
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00:26:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yeah, I have a question on Chemistry SE but I never asked a question there
00:27:25 <oerjan> there are some other sites i could have registered on to upvote something, like the russian stackexchange. but i've been too lazy.
00:27:59 <wob_jonas> um... it's had unified logins for quite long, so registering on an additional site is trivial if you're
00:28:23 <oerjan> well sure. i've just not bothered to do it just to vote.
00:28:39 <oerjan> maybe i should upvote that one.
00:30:26 <oerjan> (it was a word in the lyrics to Moscow Nights that i couldn't find on wiktionary and the top google hit was a stackexchange question about it.)
00:32:14 <oerjan> oh looked it up, the site _is_ in russian so i had to use google translate to understand it. still worth it.
00:32:46 <oerjan> https://rus.stackexchange.com/questions/32668/%D0%A7%D1%82%D0%BE-%D1%82%D1%8B-%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%88%D1%8C-%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B0-%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%83-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%8F
00:33:26 <oerjan> eep but that makes registration rather awkward
00:36:50 <HackEgo> Xor is just addition of nimbers.
00:37:02 <HackEgo> Or is an Intercal unary operator.
00:39:06 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn eor//"eor" is Old English for "xor".
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00:39:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'eor': "eor" is Old English for "xor".
00:39:11 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn ior//"ior" is Old English for "or".
00:39:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'ior': "ior" is Old English for "or".
00:41:47 <oerjan> the answer by behemothus is fascinating, even if google translate doesn't make it _entirely_ understandable.
00:42:01 <oerjan> (it involves dialect and soviet politics)
00:42:27 * oerjan finally upvoted it, anyway.
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01:27:28 <lambdabot> KOAK 132353Z 30009KT 4SM HZ SCT020 20/09 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP181 T02000089 10222 20161 56009
01:27:32 <lambdabot> KSFO 132356Z 28018KT 7SM SCT047 19/04 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP183 T01890044 10228 20161 56006
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06:02:03 <oerjan> argh google search has broken the arrow keys again
06:03:11 <shachaf> Haven't they been broken a long time?
06:04:19 <oerjan> i cannot even scroll down the page with the touchpad
06:04:39 <oerjan> only the scrollbar works
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06:08:09 <oerjan> well now google doesn't load at all hmph
06:10:12 <shachaf> it's possible that google is not the party to put the blame on hth
06:12:24 * oerjan somehow found what he was searching for, anyway
06:30:06 <oerjan> (http://www.stixoi.info/stixoi.php?info=Lyrics&act=details&song_id=4597)
06:30:52 <oerjan> which is pretty good for only remembering that the norwegian translation mentioned sponges
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13:39:14 <boily> fungot is phasing \\ as the maple leaves tumble \\ neither here nor there
13:46:50 <int-e> so fungot will return at the beginning of the controller' upkeep?
13:51:53 <boily> oranges and reds and \\ some greens flash against the chill \\ when will fizzie be?
13:52:50 <boily> int-ello. I'm too young to ever have experienced phasing live. all I know is that it was a bother.
13:55:37 <int-e> I got it wrong anyway
13:56:16 <int-e> (it already happens in the untap step)
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14:00:10 <int-e> though now I'm wondering whether there was such a thing when I last played, hmm
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14:10:10 <int-e> I guess so, it's just one of those details that hardly ever matters
14:15:05 <int-e> Oh and there are 372 stickers, I think that approach would take longer.
14:17:28 <int-e> (this is about solving a gigaminx)
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14:37:20 <fungot> boily: madam president, let me just take up a little time to consult these committees and subsequently to implement a research policy that truly serves development needs. close association of the municipality where i live, it regularly happens that whole crews are given the chance to find a subject which is not as strong as possible.
14:37:55 <fungot> ATMunn: of course i hope sooner rather than later. i commend this report to make charges recoverable through the social security systems with the prospect of long-term success in the form of a free society to demonstrate. but clearly the weather and time of year and in the future.
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16:33:39 <int-e> wtf, why does firefox need a screenshots feature...
16:33:47 <int-e> ...I really need a new browser.
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21:11:50 <zzo38> I played GURPS game. The GM had previously said that "Absolute Timing" is a worthless trait to have, but I told him he is wrong and this time, I showed that it is useful. I opened a door that led outside, and since I have Absolute Timing, I know what time it is, and can tell that the time by the sun is the same time that I believe it is, so that I can know it isn't a fake!
21:13:44 <int-e> . o O ( or a very good fake )
21:14:15 <Slereah> It would also only be useful if you're worried about reality being faked
21:14:26 <zzo38> Yes, it could be that too. I did think of that, but I think it probably isn't a fake (but, of course, we have to be vigilance just in case, of anything!)
21:14:28 <Slereah> which is probably not too common
21:14:59 <Slereah> also how do you do absolute timing
21:15:04 <Slereah> How does it work with time zones
21:15:53 <zzo38> It does have other uses too, such as if you are resting, or have a spell or something else with a known duration, and want to know exactly when it is expiring or some such.
21:16:07 <Slereah> what if you had a watch though
21:16:37 <int-e> oh yes, let's play twin paradox with two people having absolute timing....
21:16:57 <Slereah> also what happens if you go back in time
21:17:03 <Slereah> What time are you aware of
21:17:52 <zzo38> It works fine with time zones, according to the rules. It works fine if you sleep. However, if you are knocked unconscious, it might take some time to recover knowing what time it is, but once you are no longer unconscious you should at least know how much time has elapsed since you have recovered from unconsciousness. For time travel, there is another version of that trait, called "Chronolocation".
21:18:09 <zzo38> Chronolocation does work even in case of time travel, twin paradox, and anything else!
21:18:20 <Slereah> I do recall that there's a whole GURPS book about time travel
21:18:32 <Slereah> And of course there's GURPS Bunnies and Burrows
21:20:27 <zzo38> Time dilation is possible in GURPS too (if you do a lot of space travel, perhaps). Even the core book has "Jumper (Time)" for time travel.
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21:26:04 <zzo38> Jumper (Time) is presumably for true time travel, although there is no modifier listed for if you cannot go back further than when it is "anchored" to.
21:27:24 <Slereah> I am much into general relativity and there's a shitload of papers on quantum computing with closed timelike curves lately
21:27:33 <Slereah> Has anyone made an esoland for that yet
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21:28:45 <zzo38> Slereah: I don't know, although I think there is a few esolangs that involve some time travel.
21:29:03 <zzo38> But not necessarily based on such paper. If you know more about it, invent a better one!
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21:32:20 <Slereah> Though since you have to check the values of states ahead in time, I'm guessing that it may be slow/impossible
21:32:43 <Slereah> Like you'd have to unroll the entire program in advance before running it
21:33:12 <Slereah> Especially bad since they're quantum states, so you can't assume discrete values
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21:37:04 <Slereah> although classical computing with closed timelike curves might be doable
21:38:53 <Slereah> but then there's the whole Cauchy problem issue, which is what the quantum version is nice for
21:44:05 <Slereah> I guess the simplest way to do this would be to add an instruction to load and store values from registers at different times of the program's life
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00:27:25 <HackEgo> 1/2:lemon//A lemon is a melon whose spelling is bad. \ lkoen//LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé d'un L et s'est envolé. \ shapr//shapr is anonymouse. \ steprans//A Steprans variable is a variable whose notation is variable. \ elendil//Elendil's dad, Amandil, decided to try to save Numenor from its awful end
00:27:26 <HackEgo> 2/2:by sailing to the Undying Lands and appealing to the Valar, but got lost. His family founded a new empire in Middle-earth. Elendil himself later made the Last Alliance with the elf king Gil-Galad, against Sauron.
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02:50:32 <zzo38> Now I made a XPM decoder too. It supports all three formats, including monochrome and grey mode, and symbolic colour overrides.
02:51:55 <zzo38> (Unlike Netpbm, which supports only format 1 and 3, and ImageMagick, which supports only format 3, and neither of them support monochrome, grey and symbolic.)
02:58:34 <zzo38> Why does hardly any XPM reading program do it properly?
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03:16:41 <pikhq> I'm honestly not sure.
03:16:55 <pikhq> It's not the best format ever, but it's not like it's hard to find out about this.
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03:25:37 <zzo38> I know it is not the best format ever (I think no format is really the "best format ever"; different formats have different advantages and disadvantages for different uses)
03:26:23 <zzo38> You can tell me if you think my implementation is done properly.
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03:36:47 <zzo38> In these encoders/decoders, and also filters, some things are missing, but also some things which is the things that the other program does not do, as far as I know.
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08:36:37 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Oct 15 00:36:37 2017
08:36:52 <Taneb> I don't think it's afternoon for either of us
08:42:12 <Taneb> It'd certainly seem so
09:18:48 <Hooloovo0> it's extremely late afternoon for me
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18:36:34 <doesthiswork> I think I found something less automated than the manual comics rss feed you've got going on here
18:38:17 <doesthiswork> there is a "The Official Random Funny Comic Strip Thread" on alternatehistory.com where people post from their favorite comics when they're updated
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19:23:28 <zzo38> Yesterday the GM of this GURPS game told me that one meaning of the word "vampire" is simply blood eating, although I did not believe him, and earlier today I looked it up in dictionary, and in fact, he is wrong. Although it does list a vampire bat as one possible meaning, as well as a stage trapdoor to effect disappearances, which I did not know before I looked at it today.
19:23:57 <zzo38> (However, this dictionary is also a bit old)
19:24:52 <doesthiswork> maybe they were thinking of the adjective "vampiric"
19:28:05 <doesthiswork> At least we know that they're not a semantic lexalist http://specgram.com/CLIII.1/07.snodgrass.lexicalist.html
19:29:49 <zzo38> OK, but I will read it anyways
19:37:07 <doesthiswork> The reason I called it anti-lexicalism is because they seem to have expected the meaning of -ic adjectives to be formed by directly applying the meaning of the noun, and so the meaning of the adjective would tell you that the noun also had that meaning
19:45:02 <doesthiswork> Within the context of roleplaying, vampire itself may be an adjective as in D&D's Vampire Rose
19:45:53 <zzo38> It is related to the GURPS game because he try to say if my character and his friend is a "vampire", but that is only because he is using the words to mean something else. (Didn't they say in some of Carroll's story, they use a word to mean how they intended it to mean?) (O, and I did not know that "Vampire Rose" either, but I suppose yes you can have that.)
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19:48:08 <zzo38> I don't know how is D&D's Vampire Rose, but I don't think that is what is in use here, this is GURPS game instead.
19:50:04 <zzo38> A new kind, I suppose.
19:50:42 <doesthiswork> I mean are they humanoid? humans? sentient shades of blue?
19:52:22 <zzo38> It is humanoid, and also scales, feathers, sharp long beak, some eyes, antennas. And, it is obligatory if you do not want to starve to death.
19:52:35 <zzo38> (But other than that, nobody forces you to.)
19:53:05 <zzo38> (And four fingers instead of five, more than two eye but most are smaller)
19:53:12 <zzo38> (O, and wings, for flying)
19:53:44 <doesthiswork> what are the consequences if your character are "vampires"?
19:54:24 <zzo38> Can you clarify your question?
19:55:10 <doesthiswork> what will the gm change about the game our your characters if they call them vampires?
19:55:50 <zzo38> Probably nothing. Calling them vampires doesn't make them so, it is just a kind of words you use.
19:56:09 <zzo38> (He would just be using different words, which I suppose can cause some confusion sometimes.)
19:56:35 <doesthiswork> ah, so the issue is that the share non of the other prototypical proprties of a vampire
19:57:39 <zzo38> Other than Night Vision 5 (which dwarves also share), and SM 0 (which humans and all other human-sized characters share), yes.
19:59:55 <doesthiswork> (another non-vampire vampire) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_ground_finch
20:00:52 <zzo38> Yes, of course such things can exist and can include "vampire" together with other words, it is in use.
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20:05:22 <zzo38> s/I don't know/I don't remember/
20:11:21 <\oren\> I am pursued by betentacled Martians loyal to the Spanish!
20:12:58 <\oren\> I got a new game called "Jamestown" on steam. It's got an awesome setting
20:20:33 <zzo38> I prefer this GURPS game rather than Dungeons&Dragons game, the GURPS is more scientific, and GURPS has no class (instead, you can just select whatever combinations of the skills you want to do)
20:29:57 <zzo38> My character is prefer to fight by shield and his friend is prefer to fight by whip and crossbow. And, the human character, Bob, is prefer to fight by sword.
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20:36:55 <zzo38> Why is there a bear trap in Rogue? I did not see any bear
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20:39:12 <zzo38> O, yes, I suppose that is the case. And then they never bothered to remove the trap afterward
20:39:20 <zzo38> (Just in case there are more bears)
20:39:32 <doesthiswork> it is a commentary on the folly of overhunting and habitat destruction
20:39:59 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose that, too
20:43:01 <zzo38> Do you like this GURPS better that it has no class?
20:44:07 <doesthiswork> Yes, it is excellent that they have achieved a classless society
20:46:48 <zzo38> Have you play that or Dungeons&Dragons game, or what role playing game you have played?
20:49:00 <zzo38> Do you know what is the wizard password in Rogue?
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21:28:04 <HackEgo> 1/2:mate//Mate is a southern hemisphere shamanist beverage that opens your inner self to the Sacred World. Its enlightened users become friendly, wishing “G'day, mate!” to one another. \ lie algebra//A Lie algebra is what you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size. \ la
21:28:05 <HackEgo> 2/2:ughed//They laughed when I said I wanted to be a comedian. They're not laughing now! \ hexchat//Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham. \ xyzzy//Nothing happens.
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23:39:16 <lambdabot> CYUL 152233Z 23018KT 3SM RA FEW017 BKN035 OVC050 21/18 A2941 RMK SF1SC7SC1 SF TR WND ESTD PRESRR SLP961 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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23:51:35 <doesthiswork> I jusssst had a great idea: a concatanative language with (.)(.) (.Y.) (@)(@) and so on as operators
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23:53:17 <boily> perversoteric programming.
23:53:51 <boily> `` grep -FIi gonad wisdom/*
23:53:59 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/gonad:gonads are the best punctional fondlegramming squishcture.
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00:48:12 <doesthiswork> So today I learned that all esoteric languages are actually dialects of Tamil
01:04:53 <imode> dialects of box box box box?
01:06:07 <HackEgo> [U+0BAE TAMIL LETTER MA] [U+0BBF TAMIL VOWEL SIGN I]
01:06:35 <HackEgo> [U+0BB4 TAMIL LETTER LLLA] [U+0BCD TAMIL SIGN VIRAMA]
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03:36:14 <zzo38> If you have a indexed colour picture where each pixel is stored as the index of that colour XOR the index of the colour of the pixel above, and then with RLE, is there a better way to figure out the optimal order of the palette than just by trying each one (which is going to be a lot of possibilities)?
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04:18:14 <\oren\> http://store.steampowered.com/app/643270 good game
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05:06:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53208 * HereToAnnoy * (+1012) created idea
05:09:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53209&oldid=53207 * HereToAnnoy * (+69) tables
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13:36:52 <ais523> whoops, just looked at the sun by mistake, I'm not used to the sky being like this
13:38:43 <ais523> luckily it's very dim in this weather
13:43:55 <lambdabot> EGLL 161220Z AUTO 20016G28KT 9999 NCD 21/15 Q1014
13:44:42 <lambdabot> KSFO 161156Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 14/06 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T01390061 10189 20133 58002
13:46:34 <lambdabot> EGBB 161220Z 18012G22KT 9999 SCT024 19/15 Q1010
13:46:54 <ais523> they're predicting 40mph winds here in Birmingham for a few hours as the edge of the extratropical storm passes
13:47:11 <fizzie> I don't think London's going to see much of that.
13:47:34 <lambdabot> KOAK 161153Z 00000KT 10SM FEW012 11/07 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP196 T01060067 10178 20089 56004
13:47:38 <ais523> fizzie: right, you're further south
13:48:06 <ais523> whereas further west and north they'll get much more of the brunt of the storm
13:48:07 <shachaf> fizzie: The local weather issue here was air quality, not temperature.
13:48:24 <shachaf> Well, that and the fires, a little further north.
13:48:43 <shachaf> But even here the air quality index was worse than Beijing.
13:49:28 <ais523> apparently the reason the sun's so dim at the moment is that the hurricane picked up a subset of the sahara desert (the subset in question is small compared to the sahara desert but large in an absolute sense)
13:50:17 <shachaf> Is it a measurable subset?
13:50:53 <ais523> probably yes in the mathematical sense and no in the practical sense
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13:58:20 <ais523> otherwise it wouldn't have much of an impact on the sun's color
13:58:21 <shachaf> I don't think people would describe a null subset as "large in an absolute sense"
13:58:46 <ais523> that said, the sky here in Birmingham is weird at the moment; blue and normal in one direction, bizarrely yellow in another
13:59:12 <ais523> it's less disconcerting than when it was solid yellow, because at least there's some normality somewhere, but it's still disturbing
13:59:15 <shachaf> So did people come up with any esoteric financial instruments yet?
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13:59:42 <lambdabot> *** "exoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:59:42 <lambdabot> adj 1: suitable for the general public; "writings of an exoteric
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14:00:32 <shachaf> That would be a good word.
14:01:01 <ais523> shachaf: many existing financial instruments are weird enough that it's hard to know how an esoinstrument would be different
14:01:27 <shachaf> Well, usually they exist to accomplish some purpose.
14:01:39 <shachaf> Though I suppose sometimes the purpose is obfuscation.
14:01:53 <shachaf> What sort of weird instruments do you have in mind?
14:09:01 <ais523> I'm not an expert on them, I've just seen other people discuss them (which means that I can hardly remember any details like names)
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14:19:43 <ais523> hmm, for testing this program I'm writing at work it'd be useful to have a collision in bits 32-64 of an SHA-256 hash; is that a small enough range to practically brute force, and if so, what algorithm should I use?
14:22:36 <shachaf> A 32-bit collision? Are there any other constraints?
14:24:23 <ais523> constraints on the forms of the string I'm colliding
14:24:31 <ais523> ideally, known prefix + known suffix and alphabetical characters in between
14:24:38 <shachaf> Seems like brute force would be easy enough?
14:24:41 <ais523> but I assume that if I'm bruteforcing this the form of the strings doesn't really matter
14:24:52 <b_jonas> yeah, sounds like brute force should work
14:25:21 <shachaf> You could do a clever thing but I doubt it's worth the trouble.
14:25:21 <b_jonas> and the form of strings shouldn't matter, unless it's such that they're hard to generate or there are too few of them, because those bits of SHA-256 are random
14:25:32 <shachaf> What prefix and suffix do you want?
14:25:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: you can't do a clever thing, because SHA-256 is a good digest
14:25:48 <ais523> I guess I use a hash table to store an index from hashes to strings, then keep hashing strings until I find a collision
14:26:00 <ais523> that should be O(2**16) by the birthday paradox, right?
14:26:14 <shachaf> b_jonas: I meant the birthday thing.
14:26:27 <ais523> (except that big-O notation doesn't work like that)
14:26:45 <b_jonas> a moment, I'll try a one-liner with perl and Digest
14:26:51 <shachaf> Not all that clever. I guess 32 bits is enough that it's worth it.
14:27:15 <ais523> shachaf: I'm not 100% sure on the form of the prefix and suffix offhand
14:30:08 <ais523> once I have an algorithm, though, I can work it out
14:30:42 <ais523> hmm, if it's fast enough (and 64K seems fast enough), I could put it in the testsuite so that it finds a new collision in case changes to the details of hashing cause the old one to stop working
14:32:25 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Digest::SHA q(sha256); for $x (q(a)..q(zzzzz)) { $s=qq(GET /$x HTTP/1.1); $d=substr(sha256($s),4,4); if (exists$d{$d}) { printf qq(collision: %s (%s) (%s)\n), unpack(q(H*),$d), $s, $d{$s}; exit 0; } $d{$d}=$s; } die qq(none found);
14:32:27 <HackEgo> collision: 14243f9b (GET /brqn HTTP/1.1) ()
14:32:42 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Digest::SHA q(sha256); for $x (q(a)..q(zzzzz)) { $s=qq(GET /$x HTTP/1.1); $d=substr(sha256($s),4,4); if (exists$d{$d}) { printf qq(collision: %s (%s) (%s)\n), unpack(q(H*),$d), $s, $d{$d}; exit 0; } $d{$d}=$s; } die qq(none found);
14:32:43 <HackEgo> collision: 14243f9b (GET /brqn HTTP/1.1) (GET /adwd HTTP/1.1)
14:33:39 <ais523> does `perl not handle single quotes? or are you just being overcautious with your character set?
14:33:47 <ais523> that certainly seems to run fast enough, at least
14:34:12 <ais523> at this rate it might be worth going for a collision in bits 0-64, which is /also/ a special case but much less likely to happen nonmaliciously
14:34:14 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm using q() to enter one-liners on command-line in windows. single quotes would work too, but I don't like that because that doesn't work on posix shell.
14:34:39 <ais523> Windows uses double quotes to escape, I think
14:34:45 <ais523> ah right, so the single quotes go through literally
14:35:25 <b_jonas> 64-bit collision is still possible to brute force without GPU or parallelism or anything fancy like that, but too slow for HackEgo, I think.
14:35:32 <b_jonas> It would need 2**32 tries.
14:35:51 <ais523> that's a scale that's very sensitive to the complexity of the operations you're performing
14:36:13 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Digest::SHA q(sha256); for $x (q(a)..q(zzzzzz)) { $s=qq(GET /$x HTTP/1.1); $d=substr(sha256($s),2,6); if (exists$d{$d}) { printf qq(collision: %s (%s) (%s)\n), unpack(q(H*),$d), $s, $d{$d}; exit 0; } $d{$d}=$s; } die qq(none found);
14:36:30 <b_jonas> 48 bits of collision might already be too much for HackEgo
14:36:32 <shachaf> It would need slightly more than that, right?
14:36:45 <shachaf> I remember that 1.2 * sqrt(n) was a better approximation.
14:36:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, that's just order of magnitude
14:37:07 <shachaf> 1.2 * sqrt(n) was only for a 50% chance
14:38:30 <ais523> let's see: with n values tested, you have n(n+1)/2 possible collisions; and if you repeatedly roll independent 1/x chances, the number of tries you need for a 50% chance of success IIRC approximates as n*ln(2)
14:38:38 <HackEgo> Undefined subroutine &main::ln called at -e line 1.
14:38:47 <ais523> right, that looks like the right number
14:38:58 <ais523> we can approximate n(n+1) as n² pretty easily
14:39:32 <ais523> so on this approximation it's more like 1.4
14:40:55 <shachaf> I was at a lecture where someone derived it once but I don't remember the details now.
14:40:59 <shachaf> I should go to sleep, it's almost 7.
14:41:30 <ais523> shachaf: US west coast?
14:41:51 <b_jonas> it's not hard to derive it
14:41:52 <ais523> reently there's been enough news coming from the US (and I know enough Americans online) that I added a couple of commonly used US timezones to the clock on this laptop
14:42:08 <ais523> right now it's UTC, London, Washington DC, and Los Angeles
14:44:45 <shachaf> b_jonas: If you're doing these attacks on a larger scale you can also be clever and use less memory.
14:44:47 <b_jonas> I just subtract 6 hours for east coast or 9 hours for west coast. It's not always accurate because of DST stuff, but good enough approximation when I don't want to look up the exact timezones for a location on timeanddate.com
14:44:53 <b_jonas> subtract form the local time that is
14:45:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: and more parallelism too
14:45:33 <b_jonas> which isn't obvious because you still need a hash table or something
14:45:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ctcp: not found
14:45:50 <b_jonas> I'm in the Paris time zone
14:46:14 <ais523> right, I'd figured that out mathematically when ctcp wasn't helping
14:46:33 <b_jonas> we argued on this channel what that timezone is best called, when I said I call it Europe/Paris because it's the biggest city in this timezone, and other people argued it might not be so
14:46:37 <ais523> I wasn't sure if Hungary was far enough east to be in +2 in winter and +3 in summer (rather than +1 in winter and +2 in summer, like Paris)
14:46:57 <b_jonas> No, it switches to that at Romania
14:49:26 <b_jonas> those are about the only places that use that timezone
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14:50:45 <b_jonas> Ok, actually the three Baltic states are using it too, and possibly Ukraine
14:51:56 <b_jonas> That's actually a lot of places I guess.
14:54:28 <b_jonas> Anyway, I really recommend timeanddate.com for this stuff, when you want more than just guesstimates in your head. It's a well-made site, and the nice part is that the maintainer reacts to my emails.
14:56:11 <ais523> oh, hmm, looks like the prefix and suffix I need is actually just the null string
14:56:14 <ais523> well, that makes things a lot simpler
14:57:14 <ais523> wait, no, there's a salt
14:57:18 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Digest::SHA q(sha256); for $x (q(a)..q(zzzzz)) { $s=$x; $d=substr(sha256($s),4,4); if (exists$d{$d}) { printf qq(collision: %s (%s) (%s)\n), unpack(q(H*),$d), $s, $d{$d}; exit 0; } $d{$d}=$s; } die qq(none found);
14:57:19 <HackEgo> collision: 1a7d5bb0 (bloh) (hlx)
14:57:47 <ais523> or should be, I'm not sure this code is actually using it
14:58:32 <ais523> good thing I looked at that bit of the code!
15:14:25 <ais523> b_jonas: 40-bit collision: cthex, bdllm
15:14:41 <ais523> going significantly beyond this seems unviable in Perl, it uses too much memory
15:14:50 <ais523> I might try switching to Rust
15:14:59 <ais523> and/or borrowing a more powerful computer from the university
15:22:10 <ais523> "Usually, SHA-256 operates on integers with 32 bits (u32). This implementation uses one double (f64) for each bit of each integer, thereby allowing to use 8 fuzzy input bits for each input byte." ← looks like crates.io has some fairly esoteric libraries…
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15:24:18 * ais523 has an idea, and does a web search for "hqwj ever"
15:25:40 <ais523> there is one relevant result but it doesn't contain a generalisation to 64 bits
15:26:05 <ais523> I typed it correctly first time in the search box
15:26:25 <ais523> it is fairly problematic for this that "ever" is a real word :-(
15:27:07 <ais523> anyway, thinking about this, a > 2**32 attempt birthday collision is likely to use more memory than this computer has unless the algorithm is very optimized wrt memory use
15:28:02 <ais523> I wonder if using a database for this would make sense?
15:29:39 <shachaf> But it seems people have algorithms that don't require you to store every input and hash.
15:30:16 <ais523> an obvious improvement in terms of memory usage is to just store the hash, then once you have the second input, go back to the start and brute force a preimage
15:30:22 <ais523> you found it once already so you can find it again
15:30:34 <shachaf> Now that I know why "Pollard's rho algorithm" is called that I think the name is pretty silly.
15:33:07 <int-e> The rainbow table trick should also be applicable (iterate the hash, but only remember those values whose lower k bits are 0, for some chosen k)
15:34:21 <ais523> not in this case, unless we convert the input to be alphabetical between the iterations
15:34:38 <ais523> which seems like it might be fairly slow? it's a clever trick, though
15:34:55 <shachaf> Convert the input to be alphabeticaal?
15:35:00 <ais523> come to think of it, you could actually do this in constant memory
15:35:08 <ais523> via the tortoise-and-hare algorithm for finding a cycle in a linked list
15:35:52 <ais523> the idea is that you repeatedly do the following: truncated-hash the input, convert the truncated hash into a new input of the required form
15:36:09 <ais523> that gives you a chain of truncated hashes which has to repeat eventually (because there are only finitely many possibilities for the truncated hash)
15:36:31 <int-e> ais523: you can even swap the order of the two operations for smaller (probably) intermediate results
15:36:32 <shachaf> That's where the name "rho" comes from. Because a linked list with a cycle in it looks like ρ
15:36:37 <ais523> then you use a cycle detection algorithm (possible in O(1) memory) to find the cycle, and at that point, working "backwards" from the point of the cycle gives you a collision
15:36:55 <ais523> shachaf: that's ridiculous :-P
15:40:50 <shachaf> That's hard to parallelize, though.
15:41:06 <shachaf> But apparently people have more tricks for that.
15:41:12 <int-e> no, it's trivial, just start from n random values
15:41:17 <ais523> wait, I'm not sure this works; you can detect the cycle in O(1) memory but you don't learn the point at which the cycle joins the main sequence
15:42:38 <ais523> which is what you'd need to nkow
15:44:29 <ais523> I guess you need extra values; once you find a collision do another full loop of the cycle to work out how large it is, and track what distance you've gone to work out where you are on the cycle, letting you work out the point it converges
15:44:36 <ais523> then just start from the start and stop at the appropriate point
15:47:28 <int-e> ais523: you can do it if you remember the starting value; the starting value, the tortoise, and the hare will be evenly spaced when the cycle is detected, so just iterate from the starting value and the tortoise synchronously until they become equal. Though perhaps there are cheaper ways of doing it.
15:48:07 <shachaf> I'm not thinking very well right now. I should go to sleep.
15:48:13 <ais523> oh yes, I think that's what my approach would simplify to if I actually did the maths?
15:48:18 <shachaf> But here's a paper discussing it: http://people.scs.carleton.ca/~paulv/papers/JoC97.pdf
15:49:19 <int-e> shachaf: my guess is that the speedup from starting with n random points is almost perfect (as an estimate, (n+1)/2 with n threads)
15:49:57 <int-e> (And by speedup I mean expected speedup, since everything here is probabilistic.)
15:50:58 <shachaf> Yes, it's a different version that I was thinking of, which uses that rainbow trick.
15:51:37 <ais523> sha256(015e2c85)=45faea71c83c8f73bbee1d07c4b2c3428b0c1b537aa964dd5492cb936d268184
15:51:39 <shachaf> But it's not that tricky there either.
15:51:44 <ais523> sha256(da90efdd)=45faea71f8e5a5698d74dacf7a7cfeaf7e1d771d14f51cc064a2778b836e0051
15:51:54 <ais523> looks like this algo works for the small (32-bit) test case
15:52:09 <ais523> `` perl -MDigest::SHA=sha256 -E 'sub i{unpack"H*",substr sha256(shift),0,4}$t=$h="a";do{$h=i(i($h));$t=i($t)}while($h ne $t);$h="a";say $t;do{$lh=$h;$lt=$t;$h=i($h);$t=i($t)}while($h ne $t);say $lh;say $lt;say $h;say $t'
15:52:12 <HackEgo> 6a71fd18 \ da90efdd \ 015e2c85 \ 45faea71 \ 45faea71
15:52:23 <int-e> but I seem to be wrong, since the paper says that the speedup is only O(sqrt(n))
15:53:22 <shachaf> Were you expecting better than O(sqrt(n))?
15:53:40 <shachaf> Oh, you mean for parallelizing.
15:54:01 <int-e> I guess my analogy is flawed
15:56:39 <ais523> huh, I just found a collision on a 48-bit prefix, and it only took marginally over twice as long as on a 40-bit prefix
15:56:43 <ais523> is that just an utter fluke?
15:57:14 <ais523> 0005a3be7429 against b0390e13d757, for those people who are interested
15:57:54 <shachaf> Are you measuring time or number of hashes?
15:58:04 <ais523> but I wouldn't expect startup cost to be significant
15:58:11 <ais523> ~15 seconds compared to ~30 seconds
15:59:09 <ais523> I assume so, it's about a 1% chance I think
15:59:22 <ais523> those happen occasionally but it's still surprising when they do
16:01:03 <ais523> the times should differ by a factor of 256
16:01:07 <ais523> they actually differed by a factor of 2
16:01:14 <ais523> so the result is a factor of 100 away from what's expected
16:02:34 <shachaf> My thinking must be jumbled right now.
16:02:43 <ais523> it's me who's confused
16:02:46 <shachaf> I guess I'll go to sleep. It's already light out. :-(
16:03:02 <shachaf> So more like a 12% chance. Less surprising.
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16:06:47 <shachaf> This distinguished point trick is pretty good.
16:19:13 <int-e> that is the rainbow table trick
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16:23:51 <b_jonas> The bun-alert syntax is back!
16:24:31 <HackEgo> olist 1102: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:24:33 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Digest::SHA q(sha256); for $x (q(a)..q(zzzzz)) { $s=$x; $d=substr(sha256($s),0,4); if (exists$d{$d}) { printf qq(collision: %s (%s) (%s)\n), unpack(q(H*),$d), $s, $d{$d}; exit 0; } $d{$d}=$s; } die qq(none found);
16:24:35 <HackEgo> collision: 63212655 (hgwj) (ever)
16:25:01 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Digest::SHA q(sha256); for $x (q(a)..q(zzzz), q(A)..q(ZZZZ)) { $s=$x; $d=substr(sha256($s),0,4); if (exists$d{$d}) { printf qq(collision: %s (%s) (%s)\n), unpack(q(H*),$d), $s, $d{$d}; } $d{$d}=$s; } die qq(all done);
16:25:31 <HackEgo> all done at -e line 1. \ collision: 63212655 (hgwj) (ever) \ collision: 14202469 (ioaw) (ehks) \ collision: 5e6655a3 (isvc) (gfub) \ collision: 62bd0444 (jcgu) (ifoz) \ collision: dbdda724 (jyen) (ifph) \ collision: 3fbea896 (keer) (bmeq) \ collision: 2932fabe (mcdt) (akcg) \ collision: ee6816e2 (mlgl) (dmyo) \ collision: 82952ecc (nmbm) (apqi) \ c
16:25:58 <b_jonas> "<ais523> an obvious improvement in terms of memory usage is to just store the hash, then
16:26:48 <b_jonas> ais523: how exactly does an eventual repetition give you a collision?
16:28:19 <b_jonas> but the problem with an iterative algorithm like that is that it's not parallelizable. whereas with a hash table, you can probably parallelize it to 32 threads without too much of a loss.
16:28:39 <b_jonas> and you get a quadratic gain from using 32 threads and a shared hash table.
16:29:49 <b_jonas> so that would be like 256 times faster than one thread
16:30:00 <b_jonas> but 16 threads might be more realistic
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16:41:59 <int-e> clearly the math is wrong. otherwise you'd get a speedup from interleaving 32 such threads on a single processor...
16:45:30 <int-e> (In this approach, the number of samples you need in order to find a collision is basically unchanged by the parallelization; the only speedup you get is from generating those samples faster. You'll also consume memory much faster, which is why the distinguished point trick is so brilliant, because it saves memory essentially for free.)
16:57:10 <b_jonas> int-e: hm... yes, you're right
16:58:25 <b_jonas> and sure, you're consume memory faster, but eventually you'll need essentially the same amount of memory for single-threaded than multi-threaded
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17:50:01 <shachaf> `` python -c 'import hashlib; print [hashlib.sha256(x).hexdigest()[0:14] for x in ["ccf506fc58ee23", "843c7fa058d321"]]'
17:50:01 <HackEgo> ['a522d3c3f644a5', 'a522d3c3f644a5']
17:51:12 <shachaf> Someone else can do 64 bits, I guess.
18:15:23 <shachaf> Taneb is here to do 64 bits?
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18:40:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: I could be wrong here, but I figure it's more efficient to store the original value (or a truncation of it) in the hash table and recompute the full digest each time two hash table entries are at the same place, than to store the digest and try to search again for the originla string.
18:40:38 <b_jonas> But this is from a mental calculation that could be wrong.
18:42:09 <b_jonas> For searchging for a 64-bit collision, I'd try to get time on a machine with 32 gigabytes of RAM (which isn't too rare these days), allocate a hash table of 30 gigabytes size or something, with 2**33 entries and 4 bytes of the input in each entry.
18:42:32 <b_jonas> Preferably a machine with fast RAM.
18:43:21 <b_jonas> And ideally compute digest quickly with GPU or something, so you get the digests as fast as you can access the main RAM.
18:43:36 <b_jonas> But just multiple cpu threads might be fast enough for that.
18:49:49 <shachaf> What? Why do all that instead of using the distinguished point trick?
18:53:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: what's the "distinguished point trick"?
18:55:34 <shachaf> You repeatedly feed the output of the hash back into itself until you get a "distinguished" hash (e.g. where the first 16 bits are 0). Then you just store the distinguished hashes and which hashes led to them.
18:56:04 <shachaf> If two hashes end up at the same distinguished hash, you go through the chain and find where they connect.
18:56:24 <shachaf> I'm not explaining it very well but you can read the paper I linked to above.
18:56:30 <shachaf> I should sleep but now it's too late to sleep.
18:56:40 <shachaf> But if I don't sleep I'll regret it. And if I do sleep I'll regret it.
18:56:49 <b_jonas> how well does that parallelize?
18:57:13 <shachaf> The paper I linked is about parallelizing it.
18:57:27 <shachaf> I guess it works pretty well if you use a central store for the distinguished points, and your chains are long enough.
18:57:49 <b_jonas> http://people.scs.carleton.ca/~paulv/papers/JoC97.pdf is this the paper?
18:58:13 <b_jonas> this trick always sounds like black magic
18:59:04 <shachaf> What's black about this magic?
18:59:32 <shachaf> Just look at the diagram, it's pretty simple when it's pointed out.
18:59:53 <shachaf> You don't even need to feed the output of the hash back into the hash, I guess.
19:00:29 <shachaf> Or maybe you do, I don't know.
19:01:37 <b_jonas> I'm looking at https://pdaian.com/blog/collision-finding-the-maxwell-way/ now
19:01:51 <b_jonas> I'm trying to understand the trick now
19:04:00 <shachaf> Though it's hardly his way, it's an old trick.
19:04:08 <b_jonas> I don't understand how you find the first entry of the sequence that collides
19:04:26 <b_jonas> you can find one repetition in the sequence easily, but that's not enoguh
19:05:00 <shachaf> Once you have two short chains that end up at the same distinguished point, you can just scan through them.
19:05:22 <b_jonas> you store milestones to break the sequence to shorter part, and use the milestones to find the approxmiate first collision
19:05:51 <b_jonas> and then recompute and store the elements in the segments where the first collision must be
19:06:20 <b_jonas> which needs only on the order of magnitude of 2**16 entries, not 2**32, for a 2**64 collision, although there's a higher constant factor
19:06:39 <b_jonas> this way you never run out of memory
19:08:20 <b_jonas> as in, you don't actually use 2**16 times less memory, only like 2**12 times less or something
19:08:52 <b_jonas> you could do with fewer milestones
19:09:02 <b_jonas> then you actually need even less than 2**16 entries
19:09:10 <b_jonas> you do need 2**16 milestones
19:10:26 <b_jonas> interesting, thank you for telling about this rho trick
19:10:47 <b_jonas> I had heard of it about prime factoring, but I don't think I realized it's useful for crypto collision finding like this
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19:31:11 <\oren\> BFS is supposedly going to SSTO for testing
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19:33:16 <zzo38> I made another container format, which is GLOGG container, similar to Ogg but I avoided what I considered are the problems with it, without making it so much more complicated like many other formats are.
19:35:49 <zzo38> One problem with Ogg seems how you might not be able to avoid losing data when mixing or separating streams, and how programs might not be able to do this at all if any streams are unrecognized; GLOGG includes the necessary information in "control pages" to allow them to be separated and combined even if some of them are unrecognized.
19:36:59 <zzo38> (Another thing the control page does is to identify the codec by given a UUID, as well as support alternate streams (for languages and such), and relations between streams.)
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19:38:29 <zzo38> (Also, the checksum has been reduced to 16-bits in order to reduce the amount of overhead.)
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20:31:03 <zzo38> What you think of this, please?
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21:01:39 <shachaf> `` python -c 'import hashlib; print [hashlib.sha256(x).hexdigest()[0:16] for x in ["5fc2544f27bc209e", "aeaefd69151cba80"]]'
21:01:40 <HackEgo> ['6eeafe59946b43c3', '6eeafe59946b43c3']
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23:00:08 <shachaf> @tell ais523 `` python -c 'import hashlib; print [hashlib.sha256(x).hexdigest()[0:16] for x in ["5fc2544f27bc209e", "aeaefd69151cba80"]]'
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23:07:05 <HackEgo> 1/2:html//HTML is short for "hope this mess loads". \ arabic//.scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA \ obvious//Obvious, adj.: A postulate used to prove a wide variety of theorems too arduous to prove by other means. In American Sign Language, it is denoted by a vigor
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23:09:04 <HackEgo> 2/2:ous waving of the hands. \ sgdq//SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity ever summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/ \ restaurant//A restaurant is a type of transactional resource-distributing system powered by lazy evaluation.
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23:59:45 <imode> babble: I wonder what kinds of binary trees you could generate from repeatedly factoring a given number.
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00:12:55 <oerjan> imode: self-multiplying ones hth
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00:23:41 <imode> oerjan: what'cha mean.
00:36:48 * oerjan mourns at the pun crashing flat to the ground
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00:47:21 <int-e> hmm, freefall lead me to reread http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time
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00:56:56 <oerjan> int-e: i linked that here after the previous comic
00:58:09 <oerjan> i suspect the robots wouldn't let kornada work there, anyway
01:01:52 <int-e> oerjan: ah you may recall that I'm always lagging one comic behind on FF.
01:02:40 <int-e> and I didn't see the link
01:02:56 <int-e> (sorry, and good night)
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02:35:08 <oerjan> `learn Connecticut is a US state named in recognition of its extremely unstable communication networks.
02:35:52 <oerjan> there might be something else unstable here
02:37:07 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo hi"]}
02:38:56 <oerjan> fizzie: HackEgo seems a bit stuck
02:39:08 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:39:22 <oerjan> something's truly broken it.
02:40:11 <oerjan> nothing new in the web repository
02:41:39 <oerjan> this reminds me of those permission shenanigans
02:47:24 <oerjan> `fetch canary https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/canary
02:49:55 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:50:39 <oerjan> hm maybe i should check the logs
02:51:11 <shachaf> The logs were mostly about hash collisions.
02:51:17 <shachaf> `` python -c 'import hashlib; print [hashlib.sha256(x).hexdigest()[0:16] for x in ["5fc2544f27bc209e", "aeaefd69151cba80"]]'
02:51:20 <oerjan> i meant for HackEgo commands
02:51:35 <oerjan> yes, but the last one was a boily `n
02:52:06 <oerjan> and i suspect that's unlikely to break things.
02:53:31 <shachaf> Remember the old days when HackEgo didn't even have `n?
02:53:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53210&oldid=51353 * Oerjan * (+20) Testing HackEgo link
02:54:06 <oerjan> it was so hard to dig up wisdoms in snow uphill both ways
02:55:02 <oerjan> it's not _just_ the sandbox, since `fetch didn't work
02:55:35 <oerjan> `fetch canary https://esolangs.org/
02:56:00 <oerjan> so perhaps the repository locking is at fault
02:57:09 <oerjan> may have do undo that one later, if it suddenly gets through
02:57:15 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:57:53 <oerjan> `fetch tmp/test https://esolangs.org/
02:58:11 <oerjan> that's not even supposed to lock, is it?
02:58:32 <oerjan> then again, it may do because it was exempted from the run-twice thing
02:59:01 <oerjan> `fetch /bin/sh https://esolangs.org/
03:01:48 <shachaf> Did you know Edwin Brady was one of the Whitespace people?
03:05:22 <oerjan> oh we've got a page on him
03:08:45 <zzo38> It should be possible to use Ogg codecs with GLOGG without a problem, if you have the UUID to identify the codec.
03:11:20 <zzo38> Is there a possibility that a JPEG decoder can have an option to try to recover the fractional parts of rounded data in order to achieve a better quality output than the input picture?
03:11:47 <fizzie> oerjan: There's a stuck umlbox process. They're supposed to have limits, I don't know why that's stuck. I remember this happening some time before as well, though.
03:12:25 <oerjan> does it say what command it is running?
03:12:31 <fizzie> ...it's running a hash collision search.
03:12:46 <oerjan> shachaf: YOU WERE RIGHT
03:13:04 <oerjan> i guess b_jonas continued in private
03:13:13 <oerjan> fizzie: yes, there were several in the logs
03:13:32 <oerjan> but since boily did a successful `n after those, i thought they couldn't be the culprit
03:14:13 <fizzie> There's in fact about a dozen umlbox processes, so I guess it manages to fill up some sort of a limit.
03:15:16 <HackEgo> ['6eeafe59946b43c3', '6eeafe59946b43c3']
03:15:23 <HackEgo> 2017-10-17 02:15:12 URL:https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page [18485] -> "tmp/test" [1]
03:15:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'connecticut': Connecticut is a US state named in recognition of its extremely unstable communication networks.
03:15:30 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
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03:18:57 <HackEgo> ---------- 1 5000 0 0 Apr 17 19:17 canary
03:19:30 <oerjan> that sort of ruins the file's purpose, although these days a `rm probably times out before reaching it anyway
03:20:28 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/bison: -y: missing operand \ Try '/usr/bin/bison --help' for more information.
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03:56:39 <\oren\> when c++ supports unicode I will make a namespace called std and have std::string in it
03:57:42 <alercah> \oren\: the standard does, not universally implemented though
04:04:44 <shachaf> `` python -c 'import hashlib; print [hashlib.sha256(x).hexdigest()[0:16] for x in ["8b9540f8208243d4", "745ecd23d5c46df7"]]'
04:04:45 <HackEgo> ['348cead2547ec7b4', '348cead2547ec7b4']
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07:07:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53211&oldid=53208 * HereToAnnoy * (+3335) Added Specification 0000
07:11:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53212&oldid=53211 * HereToAnnoy * (+82) Grammatical and table fix
07:13:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53213&oldid=53201 * HereToAnnoy * (+20) /* T */ - added TwoFiftyFive to list
07:15:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TwoFiftyFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53214&oldid=53205 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) 256 things in 0,1,2,3,...,255, not 255 things
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11:33:03 <shachaf> You're not going to see another sandbox's process in ps.
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11:38:01 <b_jonas> but why didn't the process get killed after a minute or something?
11:39:00 <b_jonas> also, don't laugh, when you run multiple commands in buubot or perlbot, you can ps or kill the processes for the other commands
11:39:43 <shachaf> You can't ps but you can kill? How does that work?
11:40:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: the commands are running with ulimit of no new file descriptors
11:40:52 <b_jonas> so you can't open /proc or ps
11:41:46 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe it no longer does that
11:41:50 <b_jonas> it's possible that they changed it
11:42:03 <b_jonas> but I'm sure it let me kill back when buubot was alive (lots of years ago)
11:42:45 <shachaf> Do you just guess the pid?
11:43:10 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, I just kill every process
11:43:20 <b_jonas> they're in a separate uid so they won't kill the bot
11:43:47 <b_jonas> how does the anagolf evaluator handle this?
11:43:58 <b_jonas> I think it has a proper sandbox
11:44:08 <b_jonas> anyway, perlbot seems to have changed, it doesn't allow this easy exploit
11:44:12 <b_jonas> you have to work harder to break it
11:56:09 <b_jonas> Anyway, how are you in the UK? I hear there was a hurricane or something.
12:05:13 <b_jonas> (which sounds rather impossible, by the way.)
12:05:51 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Ophelia_(2017)
12:06:44 <b_jonas> it makes me feel less safe when some crazy impossible random meteorological stuff happens
12:24:42 <boily> who maintains the HackEgo nowadays again?
12:25:24 <b_jonas> but at least fungot is here
12:25:25 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, there are key sectors, such as tourism and nuclear energy. this, in fact, i am surprised because that emphasis denotes fnord of this kind were called into question and, as far as possible, that the rules we currently have in telephony to the provision and use of additives in tobacco products which may make the directive a large number of member states were not prepared to take the kind of violence we see
12:26:02 <boily> fungot: can you lead us to HackEgo's body? can we reanimate it?
12:26:02 <fungot> boily: madam president, first of all have to be referred back to committee. what is important is to see how that fnord out. agenda 2000 and the ensuing reactions. the european union has a key role to play at being teacher, to coin a phrase, in english, and political freedoms.
12:26:24 <boily> we must fnord out.
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12:27:05 <shachaf> fungot: you didn't coin nothin'
12:27:06 <fungot> shachaf: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, in relation to other automobile industries. we need to have regard to this dossier. this is why i wholeheartedly concur with those of the commission, and not for personal reasons, concerning content, which again prove the need for people carrying out activities before the date of december 1998 cannot be adhered to, because one of the most critical sectors for the vienna european coun
12:30:39 <b_jonas> I wonder, what precaution could a humanoid dungeon adventurer use to pass through a banana peel trap, when he does percieve it, but it's in a one-tile wide corridor so he can't go around, and doesn't want to spend time disarming it.
12:31:06 <b_jonas> I guess flight or a flying steed could work.
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12:47:25 <fizzie> b_jonas: I don't know why it got stuck -- it's *supposed* to have a timeout, and conventional infinite loops have managed to.
12:48:03 <fizzie> b_jonas: Anyway, the reason why it's broken this time is the *other* bug, not the sandbox one -- the 'socat' process it uses to talk to IRC is again consuming 100% of CPU apparently doing nothing.
12:48:15 <fizzie> I think that might sometimes get triggered if it gets disconnected from the server.
12:48:26 <fizzie> Actually, maybe I could attach a gdb to it just for funs.
12:48:41 <fizzie> "bash: gdb: command not found"
12:48:46 <fizzie> ...well, maybe it's not that important.
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12:52:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah. I understand, my irc bot is unmaintained for years too, and has mysterious bugs where it doesn't notice that the IRC server disconnected. the whole thing is ripe for rewriting, "when I have time".
12:52:35 <b_jonas> I'll probably eventually rewrite it to some overengineered second system monstrosity.
12:54:23 <fizzie> I still don't really consider HackEgo "my bot", even though I guess I'm the closest thing it has to a maintainer.
12:54:40 <b_jonas> I'm not saying you're maintaining it
12:54:50 <b_jonas> I'm just saying I understand how irc bots end up unmaintained
12:54:59 <b_jonas> I'm not really maintaining my irc bots either
12:55:12 <fizzie> Wonder if Eggdrop's still around.
12:55:25 <b_jonas> Also, the whole server running the bot should have been reinstalled like twice already
12:56:05 <fizzie> "Eggdrop is the oldest Internet Relay Chat (IRC) bot still in active development", last stable release "13 Aug 2017". Huh, looks that way.
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13:34:54 <shachaf> int-e: Today Daniel Bernstein posted about that paper at https://blog.cr.yp.to/20171017-collisions.html
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20:21:50 <imode> does anybody have that proof that shows FRACTRAN as non-TC if it's executed out-of-order/maximally/nondeterministically?
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20:31:11 <imode> either ais or oerjan mentioned it.
20:32:02 <quintopia> i think ais523 was saying that you could write programs in such a way that they enforced the order of execution
20:32:20 <quintopia> but i wasnt there for everythimg that was said
20:32:23 <imode> yeah, by using flag registers.
20:35:56 <imode> quintopia: 2017-10-11 17:50:16 oerjan <ais523> (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies) <-- istr we found out that was false at some point.
20:37:51 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/5wK3 a reasonably full snippet.
20:48:08 <quintopia> so maybe the nondeterministic version can compute all total computations?
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21:01:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53215&oldid=53212 * HereToAnnoy * (-124) minor spec fix
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21:14:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53216&oldid=53215 * HereToAnnoy * (+132) spec fix #2
21:14:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53217&oldid=52980 * HereToAnnoy * (+395) started Tables inplementation
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21:40:36 <\oren\> I need to decode terminal gibberish
21:40:38 <\oren\> 0.0000000}��pS�Cý41?/⎽┘▮0 ␋┼ ␌⎺┼├␊│├ ⎺° ␍␋⎽┘▮1C⎺└└▒┼␍ ␊│␋├␊␍ ┬␋├ ┼⎺┼-≥␊⎼⎺ ⎽├▒├┤⎽ 1
21:42:33 <\oren\> does anyone know a way to decode the above line?
21:42:49 <\oren\> it was output by a partially functional program
21:49:33 <\oren\> oh, if I redirect it to a file it doesn't get screwed up
21:49:45 <\oren\> but catting the file screws up my terminal
21:50:06 <Taneb> Does it have weird control codes in it
21:51:15 <\oren\> basically the coded line is an error message of the form fprintf(stderr,"%s is invalid" or something
21:51:36 <\oren\> and the part that got %s contains something strange
21:55:02 <\oren\> I wish i could disable whatever escape it is that switches this
22:02:51 <\oren\> 0.0000000}<86><E8>pS<C3>C^N<98>4朱Կ/sj_0 in context of disj_1Command exited with non-zero status 1
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00:16:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53218&oldid=53216 * HereToAnnoy * (-39) Terminate instruction unnecessary
00:20:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53219&oldid=53218 * HereToAnnoy * (+54)
00:28:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53220&oldid=53219 * HereToAnnoy * (+35) example fix
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00:58:14 <\oren\> a bunch of jumbled bytes suddenly appeared in an otherwise ok file
00:58:55 <\oren\> i'm thinking this might be my first time witnessing real data corruption
01:00:30 <\oren\> }<86><E8>pS<C3>C^N<98>4朱Կ/ appears in one file and not the other. they are supposed to be identical
01:01:25 <\oren\> well I'm overwriting the corrupted one with the good one
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02:41:38 <imode> an update from earlier, a P System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system) is similar to fractran and it emphasizes nondeterministic rule application, only with the idea of permeable membranes in place.
02:41:56 <imode> I don't see the difference between a "permeable membrane" and a flag register.
02:42:12 <imode> so why would fractran be non-TC with nondeterministic rule application?
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07:07:31 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6AcH-jch1M
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09:52:09 <izabera> is there any actual paradox that's fundamentally different from the liar's paradox?
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10:00:16 <shachaf> "paradox" isn't a very good word.
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10:04:43 <izabera> is there any actual encyclopedia that's fundamentally different from the liar's encyclopedia?
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11:04:44 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox
11:04:57 <int-e> it's called a paradox, but there's no logical contradiction at all.
11:06:39 <Slereah> No but it goes against the intuitive way of thinking
11:07:14 <int-e> I know. It's an answer to izabera's question; any instance of the liar's paradox would involve a logical contradiction.
11:08:19 <Slereah> The axiom of choice gets a bad rap but frankly the negation of the axiom of choice is even worse
11:12:56 <int-e> I don't mind the axiom of choice. The idea that the so called "real numbers" have any representation in physics is the underlying fallacy to my mind.
11:15:27 <Slereah> Well you can try do work without the reals, but good luck
11:16:50 <int-e> I wouldn't. You just have to admit that you're building *models* or reality, and often surprisingly accurate ones at that.
11:17:11 <int-e> s/reality/the physical world/
11:17:14 <Slereah> well yes, that's what physics is for
11:17:16 <int-e> (assuming it exists :P)
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11:20:08 <Slereah> I've got a full book of axiomatizing physics with geometrical axioms
11:20:13 <Slereah> It is the worst idea of all times
11:21:44 <Slereah> where else would you dip your pizza
11:29:16 <Slereah> apparently it is possible to do quantum computing with discrete path integrals
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13:14:00 <shachaf> izabera: Oh, I have a paradox for you.
13:15:03 <shachaf> If you agree to be an apprentice until your 21st birthday, but you were born on Feb 29, you'll have to stay an apprentice until you're 84.
13:27:32 <shachaf> Some people would go so far as to call it "a most ingenious paradox".
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17:19:38 <int-e> it's a potential legal problem
17:20:05 <alercah> yes but that's not what shachaf is getting at
17:22:07 <int-e> (German law doesn't count birthdays, it counts years since birth. If you're born on February 29th, each year will end on a February 28th, so from that perspective the next day your birthday, alternating between March 1st and February 29th.)
17:37:21 <Slereah> How does it define a year though
17:38:32 <int-e> By date. It takes the calendar for granted in this context, hmm.
17:40:21 <Slereah> so the interval between two identical dates is 1 year if it's not the 29th, and otherwise that?
17:40:35 <int-e> Slereah: so the interesting case here is that the day a year after a February 29th is the last day of February. This is also applicable for the date 1 month after August 31st, for example.
17:41:46 <int-e> the extreme case being the day 1 month after January 31st; it'll also be the last day of February. In particular 1 month after one month after some day may be different from 2 months after the same day. Fun.
17:50:38 <alercah> Ontario law is clear that February 29's anniversary happens on February 28 on a non-leap year
17:50:58 <alercah> the rules on months are similar
17:54:32 <int-e> it's the same in german law, it's just that for legal age, the anniversary isn't relevant; it's the completion of n years starting at the birth date that matter.
17:57:39 <int-e> the law will have phrases like "after completion of the 18th year of life"
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22:19:03 <fizzie> Hmm. I was making a new offsite backup disk, and turns out I've encrypted the previous one. Which makes sense (can never be too careful with those esolangs.org backups), but I've no idea about what sort of passphrase would unlock it.
22:19:43 <fizzie> This does not bode well if I ever actually need to restore something from those backups.
22:20:17 <Hooloovo0> perhaps you should do another backup
22:20:56 <fizzie> But chances are I'll manage to forget about how I encrypted the new one I'm making, as well.
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22:44:17 <int-e> clearly you need a backup plan for your backup plan
22:46:11 <int-e> that reminds me that I have no clue what my project euler password is anymore :P
22:46:31 <int-e> which may be saving me a lot of trouble
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23:14:05 <HackEgo> 1/3:bdsmreclist//* oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits \ prography//Prography is the art of turning computational algorithms into something totally incomprehensible to anyone whose brain isn't made of silicon and arsenic. \ double dactyl//Curious spurious juvenile poetry that is supposedly tr
23:14:07 <HackEgo> 2/3:icky to write, but its obsession with sesquipedality makes double dactyls quite gaudy and trite. \ peer//Peer Gynt is a famous Norwegian troll. His reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections and torrenting his own files. \ earth//Topologically speaking, the Earth has been a coffee mug ev
23:14:09 <HackEgo> 3/3:er since that hole to China was dug.
23:15:13 <quintopia> i learned yesterday about the ridiculousness of quebecois curse words
23:16:10 <boily> they aren't ridiculous. they are categorical! you can compose them any way you want ^^
23:16:25 <quintopia> you can do that with most curse words
23:16:39 <quintopia> but most places don't curse by listing props used in communion
23:17:18 <boily> it adds charm and tradition!
23:18:11 <boily> it promotes precise vocabulary, diction and personal expression!
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01:17:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53221&oldid=53217 * HereToAnnoy * (+1051) finished /* Tables */
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01:19:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53222&oldid=53213 * HereToAnnoy * (+39) /* T */ added Tables to language list
01:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53223&oldid=53209 * HereToAnnoy * (-15) i'm dumb
01:30:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53224&oldid=52797 * HereToAnnoy * (+443) /* Cheating Quines */ - added Tables example
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01:31:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> Some people would go so far as to call it "a most ingenious paradox". <-- is this a quote from a relevant poem
01:31:40 <alercah> oerjan: from a relevant play
01:34:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Revolution 9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53225 * HereToAnnoy * (+199) Created page with "==STOP MAKING BRAINFUCK CLONES== Please stop making [[brainfuck]] clones.<br> Especially bad ones.<br> --~~~~"
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02:08:09 <oerjan> <fizzie> But chances are I'll manage to forget about how I encrypted the new one I'm making, as well. <-- this might be a rare case where writing it down is the best option hth
02:08:58 <boily> damn. walls aren't passable in the labyrinth.
02:12:41 <imode> counter machines are beautiful.
02:14:49 <oerjan> imode: i remembered how to do the proof. how much math do you know? i can do it short with compactness, or more long-winded without
02:15:22 <imode> oerjan: your choice! long-winded would be nice as I could study it and prompt you with questions in bulk rather than bug you randomly. :P
02:15:58 <oerjan> um the "compactness" is a technical math term, just so you know.
02:16:03 <imode> I'm digging into equivalent models and I see that it's rooted in counter machines, inspired by Minsky, Melzak and Lambek.
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02:17:22 <imode> shoot me the proof.
02:18:34 <oerjan> well ok first the common part. let's say you have a non-deterministic fractran program which simulates an ordinary one (so the result, and whether it halts, is unique).
02:19:08 <imode> right, and you could do that with extensive use of flag registers.
02:19:21 <oerjan> no, you cannot. that's what we're proving.
02:20:44 <oerjan> now assume one instance of the computation runs through a sequence of numbers n_1, n_2, ... etc.
02:21:32 <oerjan> let p_1, p_2, ..., p_k be the primes used. split up each number n_i into a tuple of exponents, one coordinate for each prime.
02:22:01 <oerjan> so the computation is now a sequence of elements of N^k
02:22:24 <imode> alright, I follow.
02:23:24 <oerjan> the thing is, and this is what can be proved two ways: for any such sequence there must exist two indices i and j>i such that every coordinate of t_i is smaller than the corresponding coordinate of t_j.
02:24:08 <imode> that enforces an ordering, right?
02:24:09 <oerjan> um, _unless_ the sequence is finite. so from now on we're assuming the computation _doesn't_ halt.
02:24:22 <oerjan> yes, it's a partial ordering on tuples.
02:24:34 <imode> alright, I follow.
02:26:48 <oerjan> for now, assume this about number tuples. now because of how nondeterministic fractran works, once we've found i and j, we can modify what happens from point j to get a new computation that simply increases linearly every j-i steps.
02:27:18 <oerjan> (btw this partial order of tuples corresponds to the original number n_i dividing n_j)
02:28:27 <oerjan> but this means that we know how to solve the halting problem for nondeterministic fractran. thus it cannot be turing complete.
02:28:57 <imode> now, by nondeterministic fractran, you mean randomized rule application, right.
02:29:13 <oerjan> well not just randomized, freely chosen.
02:29:49 <imode> I figured. so, riddle me this. that made sense (though I'm still chewwing on it), but how can P systems claim to be turing complete then?
02:30:20 <oerjan> because things on different sides of membranes cannot react with each other, i presume.
02:30:41 <imode> right, but that's just a really fancy way of saying "I'm in this state so these rules apply, while the others don't."
02:30:48 <imode> which you can achieve by flag registers.
02:31:22 <oerjan> yes but you have a state for _each_ object, and there's no bound on the number of them, so you'd need infinitely many flags
02:32:01 <oerjan> no what i'm saying isn't making sense.
02:32:12 <oerjan> let me go look up those P-systems.
02:32:19 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system
02:32:28 <imode> membrane dissolution directly corresponds to a flag change.
02:33:22 <imode> in that if I have some register with the current state as an integer, I can always prepend a check for that register on each instruction to say "this will only fire if the current state is 3".
02:34:11 <imode> and a state transition is non-symmetrical, meaning we alter said register after we match on a given rule that says "go to the next state."
02:34:22 <imode> instead of just filling it back in with the previous value.
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02:35:35 <imode> meaning a rule looks like state(1),... -> state(1),... when it's in one state, and on a transition, it looks like state(1),... -> state(2),...
02:36:27 <imode> to me that's what the membrane dissolution looks like. I can always know which state I'm in, and because of that I can enforce some sort of order on my computation without it having to be explicitly enforced by the rules of the P-system in question.
02:36:30 <imode> sans rule priority.
02:37:14 <imode> so that's really what's getting me. the fact that P-systems are very much like FRACTRAN but don't require any kind of explicit ordering in their rule set.
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02:51:05 <oerjan> hm oh flags _might_ work in nondeterministic fractran, you just need two opposite ones. something is weird here.
02:51:46 <imode> the only odd thing is that you can't test for something like xor.
02:52:04 <oerjan> so the problem isn't flags, it's that you cannot test a number for being zero.
02:52:19 <imode> mhm. but you can get around that by simply using 1 and 2. :P
02:52:28 <imode> really simple, that.
02:52:29 <oerjan> not for your _real_ data
02:52:51 <oerjan> you cannot test for <=1 either
02:53:47 <imode> no no, I mean... if I was using flags, instead of testing whether a flag was unset, I'd test if it was symbolically unset (i.e set to '1') or test if it was (i.e set to '2').
02:54:20 <oerjan> ok, so membrane dissolution may work. what doesn't work is the "maximally parallel" rule.
02:54:42 <oerjan> if _that_ is essential for getting TC-ness without priorities.
02:55:33 <oerjan> these p-systems have too many variants, it seems, so the statement you don't need priorities is very vague on what you _do_ need instead.
02:55:47 <imode> probably a lot of membranes.
02:55:50 <imode> if I were to guess.
02:56:19 <oerjan> according to the abstract linked to, only 1 or 2 dependent on variants.
02:57:39 <oerjan> i think of the things mentioned in the wikipedia article other than priorities, "maximally parallel" is what cannot be done in ND fractran.
02:58:34 <oerjan> well, or dividing membranes, but that seemed to be optional.
02:59:11 <imode> it's not too hard of a mental hurdle to delay the state change before you've gone through every possible rule.
02:59:36 <imode> that actually precludes every cellular automata, including 110.
03:00:54 <imode> though from experience most fractran programs would break.
03:03:25 <oerjan> imode: the problem is that to know when to stop delaying, you need to know when you have no more rules matching.
03:03:52 <oerjan> and you cannot do that because it's testing for absence of something
03:04:04 <imode> mmmm, I wouldn't say it is though.
03:04:29 <imode> it's less testing for the absence of something and more stopping if you have no more work to do.
03:04:44 <oerjan> "no more work to do" _is_ testing for absence.
03:04:51 <imode> converting a "test for negative" into a "continue if positive" is trivial.
03:05:05 <oerjan> because it is same as "we're out of input elements"
03:05:38 <oerjan> the point is there is nothing _forcing_ you to continue.
03:06:03 <imode> I don't see your point. fractran's stopping point is "I can't find a rule to apply".
03:06:32 <imode> what's the difference here? "hand the unchanged state to all the rules, see what pops out, add together everything that pops out."
03:06:37 <oerjan> yes, but this is not a final program stopping point. it's a "go to next phase" stopping point.
03:07:27 <oerjan> and you don't have the means to disallow it randomly going to the next phase even if it _isn't_ finished.
03:07:30 <imode> say I have two states with 3 rules in them. one rule in the first state says to go to the second state (by triggering a flag register).
03:08:05 <imode> if I apply all 3 rules maximally, I'll have a union of whatever each rule's output is.
03:08:26 <imode> if I apply all 6 rules maximally, I'll ahve a union of whatever each rule's output is.
03:09:11 <imode> in fact, let me sketch this out and paste it. text diagrams on IRC suck.
03:12:07 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/u00g so we have two states, each of which has 3 rules. the first state has a transition to the second. regardless of what the specifics of any of these rules are, the current state register always regulates which set of rules is active. all the rules operate on the current state at once and get clumped together after they're done.
03:16:44 <oerjan> you're definitely answering the wrong question but now i need to think of a clearer example...
03:21:40 <oerjan> ok this isn't quite satisfactory but how would you emulate the p-system rule "a -> aa" maximally parallely in ND fractran
03:22:51 <oerjan> note that it needs to exactly double the number of a's between some well-defined steps.
03:23:03 <imode> right, and it just involves one register. it's doubling a number.
03:23:29 <oerjan> and then it needs to do that again, indefinitely.
03:24:07 <imode> as the equivalent fractran program.
03:24:30 <oerjan> that would double the a's one at a time, not simultaneously.
03:24:53 <imode> steps are still there.
03:25:01 <imode> it's just that you don't find one rule then go back to the start.
03:25:14 <imode> you find all the rules that match, grab their left hand sides, and combine the whole set of states.
03:25:51 <oerjan> that's not how nondeterministic fractran works. you need to enforce it without having it a priori.
03:26:40 <oerjan> ND fractran does on rule at a time, P-systems as many as possible, and that may be the difference for TC-ness.
03:27:19 <imode> not sure what your point was with the a -> aa rule.
03:27:33 <oerjan> well it's an example in the wiki page
03:27:42 <imode> because regardless of whether it's ND fractran or not, I'd still select a rule and apply it.
03:28:20 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/ua1Z
03:28:46 <imode> here's a.. I guess approximation of the rule set they presented.
03:29:16 <oerjan> i don't understand your notation
03:29:34 <imode> 'state', 'a', 'c', 'd', 'e', etc. are just registers.
03:30:44 <imode> state(1),a(1) -> state(1),a(1),b(1) says "If the state register is >= 1 AND the 'a' register is => 1, subtract 1 from both and add 1 to the state register, the 'a' register, and the 'b' register."
03:30:58 <imode> because fractran simulates a register machine underneath.
03:33:15 <imode> hm, that could actually be modified into two rules for the first state.
03:33:39 <imode> gotta run for a few, but I'd like to continue this when I get back if possible oerjan!
03:34:03 <oerjan> that rule seems to be an infinite loop that can always trigger once it already has
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04:37:08 <oerjan> i now have more useless knowledge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86V_ICUCD4
04:37:32 <imode> tell me your useless knowledge.
04:39:17 <oerjan> it was in that link hth
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04:41:27 <oerjan> also, that squaring P-system also uses maximal parallelism, i see. i'm pretty sure you'll have trouble converting it into a working ND fractran program.
04:42:37 <oerjan> i'm not sure NDF program even can multiply numbers
04:43:04 <imode> I think instead of talking about fractran, we should talk about counter machines in general.
04:43:25 <imode> because that's essentially all fractran is.
04:43:46 <oerjan> well yeah but ND fractran was what we started discussing, and that's weaker.
04:44:09 <imode> what exactly is ND fractran as you define it? free choice of rule application?
04:45:08 <imode> so instead of "apply all the rules at once, then move on" it's "select a rule from the list at your own will.
04:46:17 <imode> I see why that could be difficult but I'm not convinced that it's not possible for a true conversion.
04:46:43 <imode> mainly because I could totally skip rules and go for the state transition first.
04:47:24 <oerjan> for counter machines, it corresponds, i think, to having any test have a chance of jumping as if a register is zero even if it isn't.
04:47:50 <imode> so instead of free choice you have some kind of chance mechanism.
04:48:16 <imode> that's pretty close.
04:48:18 <oerjan> i didn't really mean that.
04:48:37 <oerjan> although i suspect you cannot do everything with randomness either.
04:49:03 <imode> there was some literature on nondeterministic prolog programs, and if you wanna look at fractran as a really bizzaro prolog clone, that may be cool. :P
04:50:53 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/uEFS so the only real issue I have with this system, if I was going to port it to ND fractran, is the rule with the asterisk next to it.
04:51:09 <imode> meaning if we're presented with any set of rules and one state transition, we can always choose the state transition as early as possible.
04:51:11 <oerjan> randomness might help, though, because you can then ignore a 0 probability of not halting.
04:52:40 <oerjan> imode: i think that rule is fine actually. the two previous ones are worse because how do you enforce that the first one doesn't fire alone?
04:53:15 <imode> yeah. you can go from the first to the third or repeatedly fire the first.
04:53:19 <imode> and totally ignore the second.
04:53:32 <imode> you could be dumb about it and break up every rule into its own state.
04:53:50 <imode> and form a mutual exclusion table.. thing.
05:00:07 <imode> I think you have to encode if-else combos if you're going to have "every rule is its own state".
05:00:30 <imode> meaning state(1),... -> state(2),...; state(2),... -> state(3),...; etc
05:00:41 <imode> trying to enforce some linear order.
05:01:34 <imode> "if you're in state N and your registers match these, go to state 1. else, go to state N+1."
05:03:01 <imode> I imagine there's some kind of way to encode that. if you could encode that you could write any set of fractran rules as ND fractran rules.
05:04:55 <alercah> oerjan: do you know for sure that NDF is weaker than DF?
05:08:38 <oerjan> alercah: it is decidable whether it has to halt
05:09:29 <oerjan> if it goes on long enough, you eventually _will_ reach a number divisible by a previous one.
05:09:44 <oerjan> and then you know it doesn't need to halt.
05:15:50 <quintopia> my question was whether NDF can evaluate all total recursive functions
05:16:11 <oerjan> i think there's also some way to upper bound the time until this happens, given the program and original input, and i suspect that the bound is primitive recursive.
05:17:09 <oerjan> otoh i'm not entirely sure NDF can even multiply two numbers given in 2^m 3^n format.
05:17:19 <oerjan> so it might be even less.
05:18:09 <imode> I'd like to build a "skeleton" in an attempt to port DF programs to NDF.
05:19:09 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm not _sure_ it's impossible, it's just that i don't see immediately how to do it either.
05:19:36 <oerjan> like everything else, it's about not being able to test for a "register" being smaller than a constant.
05:20:27 <imode> an approach might be to temporarily extend NDF to that kind of capability.
05:20:30 <oerjan> so you cannot really do it with nested for loops since you don't know how to break out of the inner one.
05:20:46 <oerjan> imode: but then it's a completely different task.
05:21:47 <imode> https://cms.math.ca/10.4153/CMB-1961-031-9 Melzak's model is also completely equivalent to fractran, so this is interesting.
05:22:38 <imode> well, not completely equivalent. wrong words. the concept is the same (take N from here, put M here.)
05:24:01 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-machine_model#1961:_Melzak_model:_a_single_ternary_instruction_with_addition_and_proper_subtraction far more brief here.
05:24:41 <imode> the difference is that his model appears to deal with one register at a time, while conway's deals with multiple registers at a time.
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05:27:44 <imode> but iirc he touches on something similar to conway's rule format.
05:31:17 <oerjan> imode: see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-machine_model#1961:_Minsky.27s_model_of_a_partial_recursive_function_reduced_to_a_.22program.22_of_only_two_instructions
05:32:08 <imode> yeah, he encodes an else branch.
05:34:06 <imode> so, if every rule in NDF had an explicit action for else, then you could encode any sequence of DF commands.
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05:34:37 <oerjan> that useless machine was invented by minsky btw
05:35:20 <oerjan> "Minsky's mentor at Bell Labs, information theory pioneer Claude Shannon (who later also became an MIT professor), made his own versions of the machine. He kept one on his desk, where science fiction author Arthur C. Clarke saw it. Clarke later wrote, "There is something unspeakably sinister about a machine that does nothing—absolutely nothing—except switch itself off", and he was fascinated by the
05:35:42 <imode> suicidal by design. :P
05:37:01 <oerjan> "Minsky also invented a "gravity machine" that would ring a bell if the gravitational constant were to change, a theoretical possibility that is not expected to occur in the foreseeable future."
05:38:22 <imode> shame he's now an icicle.
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05:39:34 <imode> so if by some measure, you did manage to construct a kind of skeleton with an explicit else branch, you could port any DF program to NDF. but until you have that link, NDF is weaker.
05:44:43 <imode> it may be interesting to compare with prolog's style of nondeterminism. multiple matching rules but only one choice.
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07:28:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheFriendlyEnemy * New user account
07:32:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53226&oldid=53178 * TheFriendlyEnemy * (+196)
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17:17:44 <b_jonas> I like today's SMBC. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/smell-this
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17:43:25 <int-e> if only all SMBC comics were funny like this
17:45:05 <Slereah> they are fine but they tend to repeat jokes a lot
17:47:39 <int-e> I don't know. Most of them seem to be based on people being jerks quite deliberately.
17:47:58 <quintopia> you try drawing 7+ comics a week for years without repeating yourself. im impressed how even with such a rigorous schedule, its still funnier than xkcd on average
17:48:17 <Slereah> maybe don't draw one per day
17:48:27 <int-e> quintopia: I wouldn't try :P
17:49:39 <quintopia> the oatmeal is funnier on average but updates far less often
17:50:28 <quintopia> also all the long form side projects zach produces are creative and hilarious as well
17:51:17 <b_jonas> Slereah: they mostly just repeat jokes with xkcd. if you read both, you get many of the jokes twice. it's unclear which is first among the two, and hard to find otu.
17:51:39 <Slereah> I don't think any of them are first in most cases
17:51:45 <int-e> quintopia: but from what I've read about comics and comedy, being consistently funny is a full time job, though there are tricks that help (read diversely, talk to people, free association games, and obviously expect to discard 90% of your ideas.).
17:51:45 <Slereah> Those are just general science type jokes
17:51:49 <b_jonas> quintopia: yep, it has a very rigorous schedule, and he even managed to publish a book (with good reviews) on schedule
17:51:59 <Slereah> the type that other people have done before and after
17:52:08 <Slereah> Like Nearing Zero in the olden days
17:52:22 <b_jonas> Slereah: what's "Nearing Zero"?
17:52:30 <b_jonas> and I don't think it's just science, but ok
17:52:32 <Slereah> It was an old science webcomic
17:52:53 <Slereah> Also a lot of SMBC comics remind me a bit of "The Parking Lot is Full"
17:52:58 <Slereah> another old timey webcomic
17:53:05 <b_jonas> again, do you know an url?
17:53:14 <Slereah> Nearing Zero isn't online anymore but here's an arhcive
17:53:16 <Slereah> http://www.neatorama.com/2008/05/26/the-best-of-nearing-zero-by-nick-kim/
17:53:49 <Slereah> not actually a lot of them
17:54:33 <Slereah> http://www.lab-initio.com/best.html
17:54:39 <b_jonas> there's a rather long list at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272481-Webcomic-List
17:54:47 <Slereah> http://www.lab-initio.com/250dpi/nz015.jpg
17:54:48 <b_jonas> and there was another comparable list somewhere but I can't remember wher
17:55:27 <Slereah> http://j.aufbix.org/plif/archive/archive.htm
17:55:34 <Slereah> and here's The Parking Lot is Full
17:55:41 <Slereah> http://imadudeyo.tumblr.com/
17:56:16 <int-e> . o O ( when we're done, lead poisoning will be the least of your worries )
17:56:28 <Slereah> In the same kind of off-beat comics like that you had like
17:56:53 <Slereah> No comics are really original, it is all just one long continuity
17:58:14 <b_jonas> sure, and every joke is new to a newborn
17:58:15 <int-e> all art is derivative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY http://www.spiderrobinson.com/melancholyelephants.html
18:01:01 <Slereah> http://www.lab-initio.com/250dpi/nz192.jpg
18:01:14 <Slereah> Possibly a reference to the nobel prize for the discovery of the CMB!
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23:45:11 <imode> I'm still not convinced NDF isn't turing complete.
23:48:30 <imode> nondeterministic fractran. thue is nondeterministic and manages to be turing complete and the only difference is the idea that it supports ordered strings.
23:49:12 <imode> if you could show a thue program ported to NDF then you'd prove NDF is turing complete through thue.
23:49:38 <imode> the key is representing ordered strings.
00:06:40 <boily> thue can TC because you can force away the nondeterminism.
00:12:44 <imode> boily: like enforcing a linear order to the rewrite rules?
00:12:55 <imode> because I swear to god there's some way to do that with NDF.
00:13:51 <boily> imhellode. something like that.
00:15:14 <imode> got any examples of that? I don't see many examples for Thue.
00:17:26 <boily> on the esolang page, the example right after the hello world. this shows a way to work around nondeterminism, by marking strings with delimiters.
00:18:10 <boily> by "cheating" with an alphabet of tags, you can guarantee that some steps always happen in order.
00:19:14 <imode> I figured as much. last night I was trying to do the equivalent problem but with multisets. naively I thought that I could enforce a linear ordering by just prepending every rule with a check for a state register.
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01:01:47 <fungot> boily: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, that preparing the budget of the union's foreign policy is directed at solving all disputes with neighbouring countries. this has always fallen through, however, this motion does contain elements which are vital if economic and monetary union, the european union
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01:19:03 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think would be the right solution for the post-Brexit Northern Ireland border?
01:19:03 <fungot> fizzie: the three reports we are debating a report by my colleague, who is an expert from the directorate-general on competition is removed from the original text of the commission's audacity when we see that the single currency because that is not a disaster. this is hardly dignified. it is also our duty to take back funds which could be managed without any major advantages for the regions in the european union
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03:18:40 <zzo38> NRRD does not have a "page" kind
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06:19:57 <imode> anybody got any literature on nondeterministic register machines? shot in the dark.
06:20:11 <imode> actually make that nondeterministic counter machines.
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07:17:02 <shachaf> Nondeterministic has multiple meanings, I guess.
07:17:49 <zzo38> Yes, that is one of the thing that I thought too, and, therefore, should need the example?
07:18:38 <shachaf> How's everything been? What's been going on in zzo38land?
07:18:52 <shachaf> I bet it's something interesting and oddly specific.
07:21:18 <lambdabot> KSFO 200556Z 20017G23KT 10SM FEW008 BKN016 BKN027 17/14 A2986 RMK AO2 SLP113 60000 T01720139 10172 20161 58009
07:22:08 <zzo38> I have received the latest 2600 issue. I have also played GURPS game on the past weekend. Now, maybe we should need to make hole so that the room can be surveillance from the outside. Also, I worked more on XYZABCDE.ZZT game.
07:22:54 <shachaf> Is the hole in your GURPS game or outside of it?
07:23:37 <zzo38> In the wall, in the story, in the event of the GURPS game.
07:34:59 <zzo38> Although, maybe that isn't necessary and there is a better way to do something.
07:35:47 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like category theory?
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08:17:18 <\oren\> OMG this song is just kyary pamyu pamyu slow and distorted
08:17:21 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/25YqRRvl9gk?t=4m20s
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15:57:31 <b_jonas> http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1000:_1000_Comics/1000_characters HAHAHAHAHAHA
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16:56:17 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, we are in the third pillar and in the fundamental question is, in spite of everything and without denying the differences there may be effective.
16:57:55 <int-e> fungot: wait if you're in the third pillar then who's holding up the other two?
16:57:56 <fungot> int-e: mr president, mr purvis. i congratulate mrs jeggle on her report which contains figures mostly relating to the fact that the spanish presidency for appearing here so quickly, and also, i believe that, from the point with the rapporteur is correct to propose simplifying the rules of procedure, which we did not do so then we can also quote fnord of but which is not entirely coincidental. i wonder, will the commission prese
17:24:01 <b_jonas> Hehe, libcurl has an option CURLOPT_PROTOCOLS to limit what protocol of urls it accepts. This has the set of protocols described as a bitmask in a C long. I wonder what they'll do when they have more than 31 protocols supported. Currently 28 bits are used.
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18:00:36 <imode> turns out that if you extend NDF to checking for zeros, it is turing complete.
18:00:51 <imode> meaning if I can check if a register is empty, it becomes equivalent to a petri net with an inhibitor arc.
18:00:56 <imode> and that is turing complete.
18:01:19 <imode> but without that (or without some equivalent without extending it), it is too weak.
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19:24:44 <imode> actually now that I think about it, what's the difference between checking for something >= 0 and having all your registers assume a default value of zero... and checking for >= 1 while having your registers be set to 1.
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19:29:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: I thought perhaps they should change to "unsigned long long", might be better, then. (But, then, won't be suitable if the compiler doesn't implement that.)
19:33:58 <int-e> (Apparently, screen -X is not 100% reliable.)
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19:48:51 <\oren\> https://i.imgflip.com/1xyq25.jpg
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21:18:58 <zzo38> Now I added a "ff-uniq" program, to remove duplicate tiles from a vertical strip.
21:19:10 <zzo38> (Use ff-strip at first if it isn't already a vertical strip.)
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23:12:27 <\oren\> @tell boily https://i.redd.it/pj7ssi2nwzsz.jpg
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04:44:07 <zzo38> What can you think about this experimental compression algorithm for 16 colour pictures? http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=206353#p206353 I have implemented it; in that forum you can also see the picture they gave as an example, and my results with it.
04:45:14 <ais523> zzo38: this is basically a huffman coding problem; the ideal run length encoding format would be based on the probability distribution of run lengths
04:45:39 <ais523> (arithmetic coding would be the "ideal" in terms of saving size, but on a NES it would probably require too much ROM space to write a decoder for it)
04:47:46 <zzo38> Yes, I know that, although somehow psycopathicteen suggested this way, so that is what I implemented. Of course if it does base on probability distribution, then those Huffman tables will also need to be stored.
04:48:28 <ais523> this encoding basically says that 1 and 2 are very likely (50% and 25% respectively) and longer runs much rarer
04:49:12 <ais523> the run length encoding used by bzip2 is probably even denser for that distribution, it exploits the fact that you can't have two runs of the same character in a row
04:49:32 <ais523> the way it works is that in order to write a run of one character, you just write it, in order to write a run of two characters, you write it twice
04:49:45 <ais523> but for a run of three or more, you write the character three times followed by the repeat count
04:50:07 <ais523> the encoding knows whether to expect a repeat count by seeing if it just saw three of the same character
04:50:11 <zzo38> The encoding specified there already can't have two runs of the same character in a row; perhaps read http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=206306#p206306 for some related context (the previous version)
04:51:53 <zzo38> "Each color would have a list of the most to least frequent adjacent color (excluding itself) with a hardcoded huffman tree."
04:52:33 <zzo38> So the format actually makes it impossible to represent two runs of the same character in a row.
04:58:04 <zzo38> The implementation I have made has type 0 as the end marker instead of type 4 (since it is simply a 2-bit number), always stores the first pixel uncompressed as 4-bits (it look like they may have forgotten to mention how to store the first pixel, I suppose), and has a 42 byte header (longer if the palette is included in the output).
04:58:43 <zzo38> (The header specifies the tile size and the five most common colours to come next after each of the sixteen colours.)
04:59:41 <zzo38> (Of course you can then strip out the header if you do not need it.)
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05:31:41 <imode> so. NDF is equivalent to petri nets, in that it isn't TC without some kind of check for zero.
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07:07:52 <Slereah> What's the best representation for quantum states for computation
07:08:02 <Slereah> Real and imaginary part or polar coordinates
07:30:00 <zzo38> How is NDF working?
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07:52:52 <imode> zzo38: NDF = nondeterministic fractran.
07:53:18 <imode> meaning instead of there being a well-defined rule order (rule 1 comes before rule 2, rule 2 before rule 3, etc.), you can execute any valid rule any time.
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08:17:41 <ais523> what about probabilistic Fractran (where each rule is equally likely to run), can you make that work with probability 1?
08:22:25 <imode> ais523: well, it's essentially still NDF. the only way you could make it work is if you had some method of enforcing ordering to the rules.
08:23:01 <imode> then it'd be turing complete, but from what I can see, it's not possible without a check to see if a given register is zero. petri nets have the same problem (and have mostly the same base, multiset rewriting)
08:23:20 <imode> this is why inhibitor arcs are a common extension to make them turing complete.
08:25:08 <imode> but I'm wondering if there's some dumb way to manipulate register checks. the only thing you're lacking is a check for zero, but if you can turn that into a check for one and shift all of your other checks up by one, you "technically" have the same functionality, only with the ability to determine whether a register is in a default state (i.e symbolically empty).
08:30:12 <ais523> imode: in this case there is a zero test, but a probabilistic one
08:30:31 <ais523> you can have a rule that's unlikely to run if a given value is nonzero because there'd be many more alternatives
08:30:56 <imode> that's an interesting entry point.
08:31:44 <imode> you might be able to make that work, but I like going with "asshole fractran", where if you can choose the rule that moves you into the next symbolic state, you run with it. :P
08:32:58 <ais523> probabilistic fractran is quite close to real-life systems like biochemistry, so it'd be nice if it were TC
08:33:36 <imode> what's been confusing me is that, somehow, P systems are turing complete.
08:34:04 <imode> while NDF is apparently not, but P systems seem to be equivalent to NDF.
08:34:29 <imode> membrane dissolution corresponds to flag changes and thus state changes.
08:35:32 <imode> though to be honest I can't tell whether P systems emphasize maximal rule application (i.e all possible rules are applied at once before you update the state) or some other weird application method.
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13:37:35 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 14h 25m 8s ago: https://i.redd.it/pj7ssi2nwzsz.jpg
13:38:23 <boily> \oren\: ヘ＼＼オレン＼！www
13:39:21 * boily lightly, persistently, precisely mapoles fizzie. fizziello. please HackEgo PLZKTHXHTH
13:48:05 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:48:08 <fizzie> It's done the "socat 100% CPU use" thing *again*.
13:48:29 <fizzie> I will poke it with a stick.
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13:48:35 <int-e> fizzie: that bug is fixed in the repo!
13:49:18 <int-e> but glad I'm not the only one who was bitten by this
13:50:52 <int-e> hmm, let me try to reconstruct
13:51:35 <int-e> "2017-01-25: Socat version 1.7.3.2 fixes uninterruptable hang / CPU loop on host resolution problems"
13:53:28 <int-e> fizzie: http://repo.or.cz/socat.git/commit/6b596b8852d8fad2675894e3ceb18a04801eaf23
13:53:57 <int-e> (it's still a bit worrying that there would be a SIGSEGV in the first place)
13:55:05 <int-e> And, apparently, lambdabot is still using 1.7.3.1 hmm. I should do something about that.
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13:56:53 <fizzie> Hmm. "socat version 1.7.2.4+sigfix"
13:57:19 <fizzie> ...except this is probably the socat in the HackEgo chroot...
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13:57:50 <fizzie> Which seems to be the same.
13:59:41 <int-e> so what does the +sigfix mean...
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14:02:01 <int-e> (It does sound like it could be the right thing, but I bet socat does more than one thing with signals.)
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14:34:17 <fizzie> int-e: Not sure, the deb version number doesn't mention the "sigfix", so I can't tell from the changelog. Though there is an entry saying "Backport upstream fix to prevent DoS with fork, fixes CVE-2015-1379 (closes: #776234)", and *that* bug says "socats signal handler implementations are not asnyc-signal-safe", so it's probably that.
14:35:02 <fizzie> I should just upgrade that box from jessie to stretch.
14:39:50 <int-e> fizzie: that description sounds like http://repo.or.cz/socat.git/commit/2af0495cc6534a08d0783a1613d6c9a488ab97e6 ... and it looks like that patch is what introduced the infinite loop via the SIGSEGV handler. (If the SIGSEGV handler returns without disabling itself, and without doing any dirty platform-specific fixups, then it will immediately trigger again.)
14:41:06 <int-e> Anyway, stretch ships 1.7.3.1, which is still affected. I installed the .deb from sid on stretch...
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15:02:07 <int-e> fizzie: err, never mind. the stretch version is fine; it includes a patch for the problem.
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18:58:49 * ais523 has an idea for an esolang
19:00:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53233&oldid=53222 * Ais523 * (+18) /* C */ +[[Countercall]]
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19:11:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countercall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53234 * Ais523 * (+2738) new language!
19:11:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53235&oldid=52144 * Ais523 * (+17) +[[Countercall]]
19:11:56 <ais523> it's nice to have an esolang idea and make it into a finished esolang-documentation in under 20 minutes
19:12:57 <Slereah> What's a good way to implement quantum states on a simulation
19:13:18 <Slereah> It's a bit hard due to the possible entangling
19:14:11 <Slereah> I'm thinking maybe every qubit is a list of states, and every of those states has a list of pointers to other states
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19:16:17 <Slereah> So that [|0> x |1> + |1> x |0>] would be something like two qubits defined as [ [0, ptr], [1, ptr] ] and [ [1, ptr], [0, ptr] ]
19:16:32 <Slereah> And each pointer points to the appropriate state it is entangled to
19:17:10 <zzo38> One way is to use a full state vector, but then it becomes larger; it is 2 to the power of however many bits.
19:17:32 <Slereah> Full state vector sounds unwieldy to use, especially if I want to implement registers
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19:18:06 <zzo38> Yes, I think it is unwieldy, but I don't know how well any other way will work, either.
19:18:27 <Slereah> Plus I'm guessing that most states will be either not entangled at all or just entangled to one other state
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19:18:50 <Slereah> I dunno, do you think the idea I proposed would work?
19:19:27 <Slereah> Well i guess the pointer should be a list of pointers or something a bit more complex, in case there's three or more states involved
19:31:21 <Slereah> [ [0, 1], ptr ] and [ [1, 0], ptr ]
19:31:22 <j-bot> Slereah: [ (0 , 1 ] , ptr ] and [ [ 1 , 0 ] , ptr ])
19:32:07 <Slereah> Or more generally [ state, [ptr1, ptr2, ...] ]
19:32:26 <FireFly> ais523: so adding a constant or multiplying a positive counter by a constant seems straightforward at least
19:33:16 <ais523> hmm, maybe a multiply+divmod construction is the way to go? implementing divmod in this seems like a nightmare though
19:33:28 <FireFly> same for running a procedure C+constant or C-constant iterations
19:33:54 <FireFly> yeah, it does, I was trying to think of a way to do it but it doesn't seem particularly easy
19:33:56 <Slereah> I think the general one would be like....
19:34:19 <Slereah> [ [state1, state2, ...], [ptr1, ptr2, ...] ]
19:34:20 <j-bot> Slereah: |spelling error
19:34:20 <j-bot> Slereah: | [state1, state2, ...], [ptr1, ptr2, ...] ]
19:34:57 <Slereah> Where there's an implicit tensor product on every state
19:35:09 <Slereah> and the states are summed with the states of the pointer list
19:36:59 <Slereah> It needs to be the other way around
19:37:11 <Slereah> The various possible states in the array for a single particles
19:37:25 <Slereah> otherwise I can't keep track of the memory
19:39:39 <Slereah> Ah, I guess I need more information
19:40:12 <Slereah> [ [state1, state2, ...], [ [ptr11, ptr12, ...], [ptr21, ptr22, ...], ... ] ]
19:40:13 <j-bot> Slereah: |spelling error
19:40:13 <j-bot> Slereah: | [state1, state2, ...], [ [ptr11, ptr12, ...], [ptr21, ptr22, ...], ... ] ]
19:40:46 <Slereah> So that this structure corresponds to the state [ state1 x ptr11 x ptr12 x ... + state2 x ptr21 x ptr22 x ... + ... ]
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20:08:19 <Slereah> and I think that works for every type of one-particle Hilbert space
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20:32:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Feather]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53236&oldid=40334 * Ais523 * (+387) given that I spent a decent chunk of time and sanity discussing Feather a while ago, it's only fair to let everyone else know where they can find it
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20:43:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countercall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53237&oldid=53234 * Ais523 * (+91) /* Syntax */ mention the comment syntax; this was always planned, I just forgot to write it down
20:44:24 <FireFly> oh, new stuff on feather eh
20:45:35 <ais523> no, just a link to old stuff
20:45:53 <ais523> but letting people know where they can find information on Feather seems like a useful addition to our article on it
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20:57:34 <zzo38> Do you know about "third man argument"? I read the Wikipedia article about it, and it look to me, Self-Predication is wrong. Being F is the wrong kind of property to say that the form of F-ness is or is not F is a statement that is meaningful.
20:58:33 <FireFly> ais523: I had actually missed that conversation I think
20:58:44 <zzo38> (I am also not so sure of One/Many; they aren't necessarily contrary, because it can depend how do you do the dividing.)
21:01:05 <shachaf> I watched a movie called The Third Man once.
21:01:32 <zzo38> Is there any relation to third man argument?
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23:45:15 <zzo38> Is there a X resource manager implementation in Haskell? I have implemented X resource manager in JavaScript. One idea for implementing it in Haskell might be that the database has type (XRM x y), which has resources of type ([(Binding,x)],y) where the first half of the pair is the key and the second part is the value. (So, you can't have duplicate keys.) (The type (XRM String String) will be the usual way, although this doesn't allow for XrmUnique
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00:15:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53238&oldid=53220 * HereToAnnoy * (+85) Spec consistency
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05:08:28 <zzo38> What is the following theorem called: Any category that has more than one object has N+1 or more monads if N is the number of final objects that that category has.
05:14:00 <shachaf> Why would that have a name?
05:14:45 <zzo38> Aren't the theorems supposed to have a name?
05:18:29 <alercah> and then it could be called Theorem 3.4
05:21:37 <zzo38> O, yes, I suppose that is possible. But, such number is local to that document, so the global name will be named by prefixing the document number too, then, I suppose.
05:21:53 <zzo38> But, I didn't write a paper, so none of that is applicable.
05:22:42 <shachaf> Is it a theorem or a lemma?
05:42:59 <alercah> or a series of lemmata for each value of N
05:43:43 <quintopia> nah. not distinct enough to list separately
05:53:35 <zzo38> Now I tried making the implementation of X resource manager in Haskell. I do not have Haskell on this computer, and also have not made any programming in Haskell for some time, so, I don't know if it is correct, or even if it will compile, or if it is good. However, it is: http://sprunge.us/hEbZ
06:09:24 <imode> I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm using fractran as a scripting language for a game.
06:12:50 <imode> it involves moving resources around and wiring up a really stupid simple register machine to my game objects is actually a terribly simple way of managing resources and externally managed flags.
06:20:09 <zzo38> What game is that? Although, I suppose yes it can have a use.
06:22:45 <imode> got a little weird mashup between pokemon, tamagotchi and zelda 1 going right now.
06:23:02 <imode> and it features little creatures that you control that have a few things.
06:23:53 <imode> an element/type, a resource meter, and a single ability. their ability is context sensitive to the area they're in (they move and live on a tile-based grid).
06:24:46 <imode> the gimmick is that you can take care of them and control them. you take care of them by raising them in your "zoo" and you can take a few of them out into a wider world to do different things like scavenge for resources.
06:25:59 <imode> each critter can only contain one type of resource, and that corresponds to the element they are. so water elementals can store water. earth can store earth. plants can store plants/seeds.
06:26:25 <imode> exposing the internal state of them + whatever tiles they're near via registers seems like a good idea.
06:26:29 <imode> that way you can write rules like..
06:27:24 <zzo38> I suppose I understand how you mean now, although I don't know what registers they are.
06:27:42 <imode> Direction: North, Background: Water, BackgroundState: 25, ResourceLevel: 5 -> Background: Ice, BackgroundState: 0
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06:28:31 <imode> that rule reads "if you're facing north, and the tile north of you has a type of water, and the state of that tile is 25 (think water level), and your internal resource level is 5, turn it to ice and set its background state to 0."
06:28:37 <imode> though really it'd be...
06:28:51 <imode> Type: Water, Direction: North, Background: Water, BackgroundState: 25, ResourceLevel: 5 -> Background: Ice, BackgroundState: 0
06:28:59 <imode> or Type: Ice or what have you.
06:29:53 <imode> actually ice would be better. Type1: Cold, Type2: Water -> Result: Ice. all of the symbolic names like water, north, cold, ice, etc. would be mapped to actual numbers.
06:31:59 <zzo38> That isn't quite Fractran, although I can see how such a thing could be done in Fractran, if you add a second rule to restore the state, I suppose (unless you are doing it differently)
06:32:55 <imode> fractran simulates a register machine underneath it. 3/2 is really r1(1) -> r2(1).
06:33:57 <zzo38> Yes, I know that, although if it isn't in lowest terms then it won't work and you will need to add another "trigger" onto it, so that it will work.
06:34:45 <imode> so you could encode that rule via mapping each of the registers like Type, Direction, Background, BackgroundState, ResourceLevel, etc. onto a prime number. when your critter uses his ability, the engine runs through the rule list after setting the registers for things like Type, Direction, etc.
06:37:40 <zzo38> Yes, although still it look it won't work in Fractran unless you then add a "guard", or if Direction:North is given its own prime number, or whatever.
06:37:53 <imode> well, Direction is a register, North is a value.
06:38:38 <imode> so if Direction is register 1, and North is, say, value 1, then the encoding for the state of that register is 2^1.
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07:10:07 <zzo38> Looking from the esolang wiki Fractran article, I found the Stack Overflow code golf. They have the following JavaScript implementation: function(n,p,q,i,c){i=0;while(q=p[i],c=n*q[0],(c%q[1]?++i:(n=c/q[1],i=0))<p.length){};return n;}
07:10:15 <zzo38> This is my shorter version: (n,p,c)=>{while(p.some(([x,y])=>(c=n*x)%y?0:n=c/y));return n}
07:10:36 <zzo38> Can you shorten it any more?
07:11:52 <zzo38> (The function is given two arguments: The first is the input number, and the second is the list of fractions, where each fraction is a list with the numerator and denominator.)
07:16:34 <imode> nope, I'd say that's pretty well reduced.
07:17:46 <zzo38> Maybe they used an older version of JavaScript which does not have the stuff that I have used.
07:18:51 <imode> more than likely. ES5 and ES6 and all that.
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07:37:57 <zzo38> I have shortened it more: (n,p)=>{while(p.some(([x,y])=>n*x%y?0:n=n*x/y));return n}
07:38:08 <imode> zzo38: ah, I see what you mean. if North is 3, South is 1, and I'm checking for South, the rule would match if I'm facing North.
07:38:11 <zzo38> (Writing n*=x/y doesn't work, due to rounding errors.)
07:39:32 <imode> I'm assuming that I could modify that trivially to include a guard that says "only this EXACT quantity."
07:39:46 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I mentioned.
07:40:10 <imode> so yeah, not quite fractran but damn close. you could emulate that behavior by setting some more flag registers but I'd rather just add to the syntax. :P
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07:56:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53239&oldid=21317 * Zzo38 * (+511)
08:15:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53240&oldid=53239 * Zzo38 * (-3)
08:17:21 <zzo38> Even more shortened now: (n,p,f=_=>p.some(([x,y])=>n*x%y?0:n=n*x/y)?f():n)=>f()
08:45:48 <shachaf> But it doesn't have big integer arithmetic.
08:45:54 <shachaf> So presumably it only works for toy programs.
08:56:39 <Cale> .oO(Non-toy FRACTRAN programs...)
09:06:10 <zzo38> Yes, that much is correct.
09:16:45 <zzo38> (Although, the original version also had the same problem.)
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11:35:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53241&oldid=53210 * Rdebath * (+1882)
11:36:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Feather]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53242&oldid=53236 * Rdebath * (-7) Remove debris from <code> tag
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11:55:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53243&oldid=53241 * Rdebath * (+3) Mmmm green screen
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12:23:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53244&oldid=53123 * Rdebath * (-39) Formatting
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12:32:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Super Stack!/superstack.ml]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53245&oldid=34738 * Rdebath * (-23) Formatting
12:47:10 <Slereah> I'm programming the quantom computer on C++
12:47:18 <Slereah> It has been a while since I've dealt with pointers
12:55:27 <Slereah> I don't even remember how to instantiate an array in C++
12:55:36 <Slereah> new State[n] isn't the way!
12:56:53 <Slereah> Does C++ still use malloc, I forget
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13:57:57 <boily> because male models.
13:57:59 <int-e> Slereah: C++ has an abstraction called allocators; the standard one may (and should, really) be using malloc
14:00:18 <int-e> (should, because I think that effort on optimizing variable-sized allocation should be spent on improving malloc.) Shiny: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=glibc-malloc-thread-cache
14:02:11 <int-e> should, also, do prevent silly things like https://www.zerotier.com/blog/2017-05-05-theleak.shtml
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14:17:38 <Slereah> I'm mostly using it because I want to be able to do arithmetics on quantum states so I need to overload arithmetics and logical operators
14:18:06 <Slereah> Rather than do some awkward Add(State1, State2
14:55:48 <myname> c++ is one of the worst languages i know
15:07:39 <int-e> there was a time when C++ lowered the speaker's karma, but I think that hack is gone.
15:10:07 <int-e> and then there are stupid people who have nothing better to do than this
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15:12:48 <boily> ah! I'm still at 108 ^^
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17:04:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AAAAAAAA * New user account
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17:09:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53246&oldid=53231 * AAAAAAAA * (+212)
17:18:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Popular problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53247&oldid=41270 * AAAAAAAA * (+199)
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18:38:51 <nitin59> anyone tried this ... esolang lovers might like this... -> https://www.nevercompletedgame.com/
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19:13:22 <int-e> way too US centric anyway
19:21:54 <int-e> the first maybe 20 were kind of nice, but then it got more and more obscure. I cheated my way to 32 but what's the point.
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19:23:15 <int-e> And even before that, I used google. I didn't recognize 4.6692, for example. I recognized the taxicab number but that wasn't an acceptable answer.
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19:27:31 <Slereah> The sequences are missing 4, 2 and 8
19:27:56 <int-e> Slereah: that's your answer right there.
19:28:19 <Slereah> Oh, that's what they expect?
19:28:26 <Slereah> I thought I was to find the next in the sequence
19:30:12 <myname> i don't like puzzles that are hard because you don't get told what to do
19:30:38 <Slereah> A lot of those questions have plenty of possible answers
19:31:11 <myname> also, zachtronics new game is awesome
19:31:55 <Slereah> One of them is just 1729 = 1^3 + 12^3 = 9^3 + 10^3
19:32:09 <Slereah> The answer is neither taxicab number or Hardy–Ramanujan number
19:34:01 <nitin59> yes the game is not straight forward... it has multiple answers.. even website has one comment about the game... :P
19:34:37 <Slereah> Like old adventure games where you had to read the mind of the developpers to guess solutions
19:35:09 <Taneb> Is the empty set a Grothendieck universe
19:35:37 <Taneb> Is using that universe equivalent to just saying small sets don't exist
19:36:38 <Taneb> And the next smallest universe is the one that I am used to using I think, containing the natural numbers
19:37:22 <Taneb> Is {{}} a universe?
19:37:45 <Slereah> {{}} doesn't contain the power set of {}
19:37:49 <nitin59> these games are no fun if playing alone... if people come and play then it might be some fun.. like the people on /sci/ blog they played together and finished it...
19:38:02 <Taneb> Slereah, you're right
19:38:12 <shachaf> I'm going to decree that game as no fun in the first place
19:38:38 <nitin59> just an FYI the game has almost all answers somewhere on their blog... so don't waste too much time on these puzzles...
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20:22:36 <int-e> Slereah: yeah narrowing down the right idea to the expected answer is tiresome
20:24:21 <int-e> myname: hmm, is it like the magnum opus challenge on a hexgrid?
20:28:23 <Slereah> it's like those old timey text adventure game
20:28:31 <Slereah> Where you have to guess the correct verb
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00:23:12 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA.
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00:29:42 <nvm> mooooooooo
00:30:48 * nvm continues running apgsearch
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01:25:23 <HackEgo> [U+1D4D2 MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIPT CAPITAL C] [U+1D4D7 MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIPT CAPITAL H] [U+1D4DE MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIPT CAPITAL O] [U+1D4DC MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIPT CAPITAL M] [U+1D4E2 MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIPT CAPITAL S] [U+1D4DA MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIPT CAPITAL K] [U+1D4E8 MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIPT CAPITAL Y] [U+1D4D3 MATHEMATICAL BOLD SCRIP
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03:03:23 <zzo38> Do you like Mitrofanov's "Rustaveli-study"? 8/k7/P2b2P1/KP1Pn2P/4R3/8/6np/8 #
03:06:01 <\oren\> someone should write the book "Celsius 233"
03:07:29 <zzo38> What is that book about?
03:13:17 <moony> \oren\, ok, here it is: "this is a book."
03:13:23 <moony> it tells its own story :D
03:59:27 <zzo38> http://optipng.sourceforge.net/pngtech/better-filtering.html "For images of color type 3 (indexed color), filter type 0 (None) is usually the most effective." There are cases where this is not true; this is one example: http://zzo38computer.org/img_1C/palette.png (and, to me at least, it seems easily enough to see how)
04:00:41 <zzo38> Also, in all three cases of the example pictures, I have achieved better compression with my "ffpng" program than the numbers given there.
04:03:32 <zzo38> frymire.png: "w32768 n258 f0" gives IDAT size 250245. serrano.png: "w32768 n258 f0" gives IDAT size 106434. lena.png: "n258 m6 w2 e0,2" gives IDAT size 473108.
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04:19:28 <zzo38> One more thing to consider can be: If filtering is in use (or even if it isn't in use, because then the filter types are all zero, and because the way the code length table is recorded), to consider the order of the colours in the palette when encoding in indexed colour mode.
04:43:49 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/bQd7Z6Z
04:53:03 <zzo38> What is that picture from?
04:53:23 <zzo38> (Also, why do they split the picture into several IDAT blocks?)
05:00:32 <zzo38> (Encoding settings "n258 w512 e-1,512,258 m6" reduce the picture from 196372 bytes to 88875 bytes.)
05:01:33 <zzo38> And what is the context of what they are saying?
05:15:48 <\oren\> zzo38: his daughter is in love with a delinquent who looks really scary
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11:43:10 <HackEgo> 1/2:diagram//A diagram is just a functor. \ frozen water//Frozen water is just ice. \ oya yakuman//We don't know what an oya yakuman is, but based on boily's reaction, it must be quite painful. \ bézout's theorem//Bézout's theorem says that if a system of polynomial equations over the complexes has as many variables as equations, then in
11:43:11 <HackEgo> 2/2:the general case the number of solutions it has is equal to the product of one less than the degrees of the polynomials. \ unlambda//``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
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18:07:05 <zzo38> Maybe, you don't know what is oya yakuman, but I do know.
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19:29:23 <zzo38> Due to this article http://optipng.sourceforge.net/pngtech/too_far.html I have managed to achieve even better compression; now I have shortened the IDAT chunk of frymire.png to 249821 bytes.
19:32:15 <int-e> you could try to make a png that displays its own hexdump
19:32:54 <int-e> (I'm not 100% sure that this is even possible, but the gzip quine means that there's hope)
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19:58:02 <zzo38> Yes, that is a idea, although I don't know how to do it. I have once found a PNG that claimed to be a QR code encoding of itself, although from what I can tell the data that it decodes into appears to be scrambled (but vaguely looks like a PNG file).
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21:34:05 <zzo38> How to make vim to automatically set syntax for any new buffer except for a help buffer?
21:58:26 <deltab> note that help files set their filetype using a modeline (ft=help, at the bottom)
21:59:58 * deltab reads about tfelthgiron
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22:34:09 <\oren\> do u know what C++11 means
22:34:14 <\oren\> it means std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move std::move
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22:52:28 <boily> `relcome brandonson
22:52:31 <HackEgo> brandonson: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:59:50 <\oren\> boily: do u know how to use std::unique_ptr?
23:04:31 * boily hides under the first object he gets in his hands.
23:04:39 * boily damns the size of his coffee mug
23:05:01 <boily> what's a unique_ptr?
23:06:52 <fizzie> It's std::auto_ptr done right.
23:07:12 <\oren\> ok, it seems no matter what i do, unique_ptr wants to create type errors in template specializations
23:07:26 <alercah> \oren\: what are you doing?
23:08:01 <\oren\> trying to initialize a unique_ptr<A> member of a class B
23:08:18 <\oren\> my constructor looks like this
23:08:50 <\oren\> B(unique_ptr<A> a) : a_(std::move(a)) {}
23:09:19 <\oren\> usr/bin/../lib/gcc/x86_64-redhat-linux/4.4.7/../../../../include/c++/4.4.7/bits/move.h:57:14: error: rvalue reference to type 'unique_ptr<[2 * ...]>' cannot bind to lvalue of type 'unique_ptr<[2 * ...]>'
23:09:19 <alercah> \oren\: unique_ptr's constructors take pointers
23:10:32 <alercah> I misread, thought you were passing in an A
23:11:38 <fizzie> As far as your line goes, it looks just fine (modulo oddly using std:: for move, but not for unique_ptr), so we must be missing some context here.
23:15:22 <\oren\> explode_cpp/explode.cpp:174:75: note: in instantiation of function template specialization 'std::move<std::unique_ptr<ParseObj, std::default_delete<ParseObj> > &>' requested here
23:16:09 <\oren\> see this is why I hate C++ and avaid all its special features like the plague
23:16:23 <\oren\> because the errors are fucking nonsensical
23:16:47 <fizzie> I've been fiddling with C++17 recently, actually, and found it pretty pleasant going. Even if the errors are terrible.
23:17:42 <fizzie> If you want help you probably need a compilable example, though.
23:20:27 <fizzie> I mean, this works just fine: https://ideone.com/ZdvaE4
23:22:41 <\oren\> struct A : public B { double d; std::unique_ptr<B> b; A(double d, std::unique_ptr<B> b) : d(d), b(std::move(b)) {}
23:23:09 <\oren\> this gives the same error
23:25:10 <fizzie> Not here it doesn't: https://ideone.com/lDkkv3
23:25:23 <fizzie> I don't know how you're calling that constructor.
23:26:21 <\oren\> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
23:26:54 <fizzie> It should be the same with C++11.
23:27:21 <fizzie> Not getting any errors in http://sprunge.us/GReZ
23:27:41 <fizzie> (5.0 is the only version of clang I've got installed.)
23:28:23 <\oren\> god fucking damn it why does gerg want me to use this shit
23:29:18 <\oren\> clang version 3.4.2 (tags/RELEASE_34/dot2-final)
23:29:18 <\oren\> Target: x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu
23:31:30 <\oren\> why can't I just use normal pointers
23:31:48 <\oren\> i know how to use them. I know how to fucking debug them
23:34:14 <\oren\> guy's name is greg but I am mad at him
23:36:54 <\oren\> gerg wants me to use /home/gerg/bin/gcc
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02:29:07 <zzo38> Will any DEFLATE implementation can implement "two-pass LZ77"? You would first do LZ77 normally, and then generate the Huffman tree, and then redo the LZ77 step but using the existing Huffman tree to determine which backreferences to make, and then do the rest of the compression normally (with a new Huffman tree).
02:30:47 <alercah> how would you decompress that?
02:31:11 <zzo38> Usint any normal decompressor; the DEFLATE format isn't altered.
02:31:48 <alercah> but how do you build the huffman tree?
02:32:09 <zzo38> In the ordinary way.
02:32:40 <zzo38> (The first Huffman tree would not be saved; it is used only temporarily.)
02:33:52 <zzo38> Does that resolve your question, or is it something else that is unclear?
02:34:10 <alercah> I will have to consider it later
02:36:49 <zzo38> My implementation of "Psycopathicteen Tile Compressor" does use multiple passes in a somewhat similar way to this in order to achieve better compression (but it doesn't use LZ77; it also uses a fixed Huffman table, but the mapping of Huffman codes to characters is not fixed and is defined in the header).
02:41:02 <oerjan> zzo38: *Psychopathicteen
02:45:36 <zzo38> oerjan: No, it is spelled "psycopathicteen" (I don't know why, but it is)
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03:43:29 <zzo38> The block size in older versions of my PNG encoder (which uses a modified version of LodePNG) has specification of block size in bytes, but now I changed it so that it is also possible to specify the block size is scanlines as well if you want to (you can still specify in bytes too if you want to do).
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04:09:00 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about mereology... and if there could be mereological programming...
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04:50:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DGOL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53248 * Qpliu * (+7895) Created page with "DGOL (Directed Graph Oriented Language) is an imperative programming language in which all values are pointers to nodes within directed graphs. ==Lexical Structure== Linear w..."
04:51:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53249&oldid=53233 * Qpliu * (+11) /* D */
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05:14:58 <zzo38> Because PNG uses DEFLATE which uses both LZ77 and Huffman, this makes it more difficult to properly optimize filter selection. With Huffman only, the filters could easily be corrected after the initial guess if there is a shorter way, but with LZ77 then it is possible some later scanlines may depend on this one, and changing the filter selection will mess it up.
05:16:26 <zzo38> I think the better way would be for the filter selection and DEFLATE to not be two separate pieces, but instead to be one piece that does both, in order to improve compression.
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05:54:53 <zzo38> LodePNG has a "Shannon entropy" filter strategy. I tried implementing a variant which takes into account the previous scanline as well as the current one, and it does seem to work better, at least with one picture (the PNG logo picture).
05:59:30 <zzo38> (It doesn't work better on all pictures though, but for some pictures it does work better.)
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06:43:39 <zzo38> I made this program to list the chunks in a PNG file: http://sprunge.us/VONI Some PNG files have the picture split in many IDAT chunks. If you want the total of all IDAT chunks, you might use a command such as: pnglist | awk '/IDAT/{x+=$2}END{print x}'
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08:43:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Newbiefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53250&oldid=46200 * Rdebath * (+468) Add an example program.
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09:57:46 <oerjan> hey, it wasn't supposed to be raining today :(
09:58:45 * oerjan dislikes when weather forecasters cannot predict the weather right now
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15:37:07 <Taneb> What's up, b_jonas
15:42:59 <b_jonas> I'm trying to understand the NaN rules for floating point arithmetic instructions. If I understand correctly, x87, SSE2 and MMIX use three different rules:
15:44:07 <b_jonas> when the input are two NaNs, 387 instructions write the NaN with the bigger significand (sign is complicated), SSE writes the FIRST input, and MMIX writes the SECOND input,
15:44:29 <b_jonas> where in both cases the second input means the one that's negated in a subtraction or the divisor for a division.
15:45:01 <Taneb> Ugh, sounds painful
15:46:09 <b_jonas> but this "first source" and "second source" is so complicated that I might have just swapped them somewhere
15:57:28 <b_jonas> wtf. who invented the SSE floating point min and max operations? isn't it enough that the add and multiply aren't commutative, do we need a non-commutative max and min too?
15:58:56 <Taneb> I seem to remember that a design goal for MIX was to not be that similar to any other architecture but be sort of similar to all the current ones, does that also apply to MMIX
16:07:24 <b_jonas> in case it matters, one of the ARM extensions have yet another rule for operations on two NaN inputs. I don't know the details, ARM is complicated.
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16:18:00 <HackEgo> Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
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17:12:04 <zemhill> david_werecat.atom: points 0.29, score 19.86, rank 19/47 (+6)
17:12:50 <zemhill> david_werecat.atom: points 1.86, score 21.84, rank 16/47 (+3)
17:13:07 <zemhill> david_werecat.atom: points 0.29, score 19.86, rank 19/47 (-3)
17:27:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53251&oldid=50705 * FTcode * (-285) Added full Hello World program.
17:29:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53252&oldid=53251 * FTcode * (+316) /* "Hello, World!" */
17:34:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symbolic Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53253&oldid=53252 * FTcode * (+7)
17:38:06 <zzo38> b_jonas: In case you have any interest, now I did write a program in Farbfeld Utilities for reading raw true colour pictures (called "rgbff").
17:39:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JeffryThunderStrike * New user account
17:40:55 <\oren\> I checked soemthing in and the build did not break. hurray
17:41:16 <\oren\> i don't have to revert the revert and then fix it
17:42:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/artifact/b00272245f7f6236 but is there a manual? and why do I want this instead of ImageMagick's or ffmpeg's various convenient raw image input modes?
17:43:29 <zzo38> Of course there is a document: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ffrgb
17:43:56 <zzo38> Later I will add the encoder as well, and could also add additional options such as XY format.
17:44:15 <zzo38> (And others, if you think there is something else missing, you can suggest it.)
17:44:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah, right, it says "decoder" so it's about rgbff
17:44:46 <\oren\> what i kind of want is a diff editor
17:45:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53254&oldid=53246 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+237) /* Introductions */
17:45:45 <\oren\> like, that would take a patch file and allow you to edit the resultant seamlessly without affecting the original file
17:45:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: this can work, though the options are easy to mess up
17:46:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: and it would be nice if you supported (1) reading raw images with premultiplied alpha (2) images with multiple separate planes, so eg. all red pixels first, then all green pixels, then all blue pixels
17:47:23 <zzo38> Thank you, yes, I do intend I can add those features too later.
17:49:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: which program was it that can transform colors (pixelwise) with an 5x4 affine transformation matrix (fixed for the image, given as argument)?
17:49:16 <b_jonas> I think there was such a program in ff-utils, and if there isn't, there should be
17:50:04 <zzo38> Not sure what you mean; is it ff-matrix?
17:50:20 <zzo38> But, whatever it is you mean, I suppose, yes, there should be.
17:50:23 <\oren\> there should be a way to apply arbitrary image transformations to an X-window
17:51:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, that one doesn't seem to be documented. let me read it.
17:51:48 <zzo38> Write the documentation yourself if you want to; if not, I may write the document later.
17:52:14 <zzo38> (Although it supports only 4x4 and not 5x4; perhaps I should fix that)
17:53:52 <b_jonas> anyway, that could be useful to decode a raw image where the alpha channel is stored negated (as transparentness rather than opaqueness), or grayscale images with the intensity stored negated, or decoding YUV444 images (but that one only once you support plane-interlaced rather than pixel-interlaced in rgbff)
17:54:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, you should definitely support affine transformation in that rather than just linear
17:55:01 <b_jonas> it has to be done together because pixel values are clamped (to between 0 and (2<<16)-1)
17:56:13 <b_jonas> in general, one thing I don't like in ff-utils is that they usually accept nonsensical command-line arguments without an error message, so it's hard to find such mistakes in usage
17:56:32 <b_jonas> I mean syntactically nonsensical arguments
17:57:00 <b_jonas> like passing a non-numeric string when a number is expected etc
17:57:10 <b_jonas> passing extra arguments for utilities that take a fixed number of arguments
17:57:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct. (Although, if you simply want to negate channels, ff-swizzle is already capable of doing that.)
17:57:46 <b_jonas> this isn't a strict requirements, programs are still usable that way, but still
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17:59:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Switchy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53255&oldid=37584 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+208)
18:00:22 <zzo38> I think I do not have time to fix anything now because I may have to leave soon, but on Friday I should have time to fix ff-matrix to do that, to fix rgbff, and so on.
18:02:15 <zzo38> Remember the wiki can be written by anyone, and so can the tickets, in case you want to do so (but it isn't mandatory; you don't have to if you don't want to do).
18:10:39 <b_jonas> luckily the coefficients as command-line arguments for ff-matrix are in the right majorness that you can just extend it to an affine matrix by appending four extra arguments to the end
18:10:57 <b_jonas> otherwise it would have been an ugly variable interpretation of the arguments
18:11:34 <zzo38> Yes, that is good.
18:12:44 <b_jonas> so you just have to extend param to size 20 here (you're relying on the rule of global variables getting zero-bit-initialized here, right? you could just add a ={0} to make the initialization explicit)
18:13:09 <b_jonas> and add a term +param[i+16] to the computation formula in process
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18:14:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, is the outconv function incorrect? I think that can give you strange results (and technically also undefined behavior) if the pixel[i]*65535.0 overflows the domain of int
18:15:23 <b_jonas> you can't rely on how casting double to int works in the overflowing case in a C program
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18:20:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: try something like static inline void outconv(void) { double v; int i,r; for (i=0;i<4;i++) { v=pixel[i]*65535.0; r=v<0.0?0:v>65535.0?65535:(int)rint(v); buf[i<<1]=r>>8; buf[(i<<1)+1]=r; } }
18:46:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53256&oldid=53253 * FTcode * (+91) added author
18:49:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53257&oldid=53256 * FTcode * (-2) /* "Hello, World!" */
18:53:52 <imode> there is a deep connection between fractran and linear logic.
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20:33:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andy * New user account
20:34:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Switchy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53258&oldid=53255 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+631) /* Interpreter */
20:35:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Switchy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53259&oldid=53258 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+90)
20:35:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Switchy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53260&oldid=53259 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1) /* Interpreter */
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21:38:02 <\oren\> aaaaaa i have meetings all day and can't do any REAL work
21:38:41 <shachaf> Are meetings not real work?
21:38:56 <shachaf> If so you should scrap your meetings.
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00:29:00 * boily searches for the today best joke...
00:32:58 <boily> probably not the best, but here goes nothing:
00:33:27 <boily> How come nobody at the king's table laughed when he farted? Because noble gases don't cause reactions.
00:33:46 * boily realises he joked without meaning it. I oerjaned.
00:37:02 <HackEgo> The password of the month is revolutionary
00:44:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ysacbell: not found
00:49:23 <HackEgo> ysaclist (67): boily shachaf
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01:24:35 <HackEgo> 11206:2017-10-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is revolutionary \ 11180:2017-09-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is chanterelles \ 11164:2017-08-22 <oerjän> slwd password//s, word, month, \ 11155:2017-08-16 <oerjän> learn The password of the word is unacceptably delayed \ 11081:2017-07-11 <int-̈e> learn The password o
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12:00:16 <fungot> boily: mr president, commissioner, we have been told that all this will lie at the very moment when the decision is justified, and so on.
12:00:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
12:00:41 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
12:00:46 <fungot> boily: use the ' ' ' delete a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there that the ep peaked at 2 '
12:01:19 <boily> b_jellonas. all hail the Avril Airbus!
12:01:41 <b_jonas> (especially neon, which is the most noble of them)
12:14:36 <b_jonas> boily: no. I mean re "Because noble gases don't cause reactions."
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15:39:06 <ais523> I've been thinking about the TCness of Countercall
15:39:16 <ais523> I was actually suspecting it wasn't until I remembered that it supports negative numbers
15:39:30 <ais523> is there any way to read an arbitrarily large negative number without destroying information, though?
15:42:01 <b_jonas> that's a new esolang by you, I don't think I've seen that
15:42:28 <ais523> I'm getting a better idea of where the edge of TCness is nowadays
15:42:32 <ais523> and Countercall is very close to it
15:45:43 <b_jonas> here's a totally different question. for each chapter of the ed. Iványi, "Informatical algorithms" book, what's the latest available version and the latest available English version among the drafts found in the following directories on the web:
15:45:48 <b_jonas> http://compalg.inf.elte.hu/~tony/Elektronikus/Informatikai/ http://compalg.inf.elte.hu/~tony/Informatikai-Konyvtar/ http://compalg.inf.elte.hu/~tony/Oktatas/AlgofInf-Vol1-HTML/ http://compalg.inf.elte.hu/~tony/Oktatas/AlgofInf-Vol2-HTML/ http://compalg.inf.elte.hu/~tony/Oktatas/FirstExpert/ http://real.mtak.hu/21565/ http://real.mtak.hu/20746/
15:46:27 <b_jonas> Also, what are all the different editions of the paper books, and how are chapters rearranged between them?
15:47:43 <ais523> is this something you expect me to know off by heart? :-D
15:47:48 <b_jonas> It's confusing because it seems like the book was originally published in two volumes, but split according to which chapters were completed first, and then the chapters got rearranged in later editions and the English translation, plus now it has a third volume by a different publisher.
15:48:16 <b_jonas> ais523: no, it's a research question that probably I'll have to figure out myself, and it's also not a question specifically for just you.
15:50:03 <b_jonas> I don't expect anyone to know it by heart
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16:28:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Switchy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53261&oldid=53260 * StellatedHexahedron * (+208) /* Interpreter */
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17:20:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53262&oldid=45269 * StellatedHexahedron * (+6) fixed broken links
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22:23:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53263&oldid=53243 * Rdebath * (-1706)
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01:22:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53264&oldid=50034 * R.e.s. * (+319) /* Self BCT */ Fix typos and clarify the generalisation
02:00:06 <doesthiswork> I haven't figured out the relevance to esoteric languages yet but I'm sure its there
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04:47:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logical/Interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53265 * David.werecat * (+31023) Added open source logical interpreter
04:49:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logical]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53266&oldid=40509 * David.werecat * (+60) /* External resources */ Linked to new interpreter
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06:06:57 <quintopia> does anyone know of a windows tool that can resize and compress every image in a folder and also maybe convert rotation and cropping metadata into actually rotating and cropping the real image data?
06:07:13 <quintopia> something a true beginner could use
06:07:55 <Hooloovo0> imagemagick can do some fancy stuff, but is not really for beginners
06:08:19 <Hooloovo0> but if I need to do bulk image manipulation, I use imagemagick + bash
06:11:27 <quintopia> but that solution wont fly with my mom, who can barely figure out a seven step process using only gui interfaces
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06:15:57 <Hooloovo0> ah, that's a slightly different case
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07:11:14 <imode> quintopia: resize and compress as in how. batch resizing?
07:12:26 <imode> quintopia: if so, are you always resizing to some percentage or resolution?
07:12:54 <imode> you could grab a bin of imagemagick and set up a batch script. "copy all your images into this folder, click this icon."
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11:14:26 <b_jonas> quintopia: Irfanview is a gui program for viewing images on windows, homepage http://www.irfanview.com/
11:14:34 <b_jonas> and it has a dialog for bulk image resizing reencoding
11:15:08 <b_jonas> or at least I think it has... let me check
11:15:16 <b_jonas> definitely has a bulk reencoding dialog
11:15:54 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if it has batch resize
11:16:12 <b_jonas> one of the drawbacks of that software is that I can never remember how to spell its name
11:16:46 <b_jonas> yes, it can do bulk resize
11:18:03 <b_jonas> of course, the hard part in bulk resizing images is determining the quality settings for lossless encode
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11:19:58 <b_jonas> an alternative is to upload the images to facebook or twitter to automatically reencode everything in crappy quality, or to whatever these photo sharing sites are like instagram or google photos that reencode photos in good quality,
11:20:08 <b_jonas> but the drawback of that is that you can't easily mass download the reencoded photos
11:21:05 <b_jonas> and yes, the irfanview batch reencode can both resize and rotate images
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11:54:21 <fizzie> boily: FWIW, I think Google Photos has sort of a mass-download option -- you can ask it for an album (or a selection) as a .zip. Presumably it's the re-encoded/resized versions, since that's what they store if you're not using the "original size" mode.
11:54:48 <fizzie> I'm bad with tab completion, it seems.
11:55:13 <boily> fizziello. there's an original size mode?
11:56:16 <fizzie> boily: Yes, but it will count towards your storage quota. (Except if you have... I'm not sure if it was Pixel or Pixel 2. One of those, or both, get original-size photos for free.)
11:56:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: can you download in whatever size you want, as opposed to the largest version stored?
11:57:08 <fizzie> b_jonas: I don't think you can specify that, unfortunately.
11:57:45 <fizzie> boily: https://support.google.com/photos/answer/6220791?hl=en "Limited free storage that uses storage in your Google Account" "Free unlimited storage for Pixel and Pixel 2 users" apparently both of them.
11:57:46 <b_jonas> what was the third big photo sharing site beside Instagram and Google Photos?
11:58:02 <b_jonas> not Picasa, right? that's just the precursor of Google Photos I think
11:59:14 <b_jonas> flickr? possibly. isn't that just a cat cheesburger gif sharing site? maybe I'm confusing it with some other site or it's both
11:59:49 <fizzie> No, it's actually slightly more photographer-oriented than Google Photos, at least IMO.
11:59:50 <b_jonas> yes, looking it up, it is Flickr
12:00:01 <b_jonas> although there could be more sites I'm missing here
12:00:02 <fizzie> Not quite as photography-oriented as 500px.
12:00:24 <fizzie> Imgur is the big cat gif sharing site, I think.
12:01:21 <boily> imgur is the reddit sharing site.
12:01:40 <boily> Picasa is dead, dead again, and very dead :(
12:02:47 <b_jonas> and the cat gif sharing site I was thinking of is tumblr
12:03:17 <b_jonas> but yes, imgur is such as well
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12:05:08 <fizzie> (The Pixel / Pixel 2 storage offer is even more complicated. It's free-forever for photos uploaded from a Pixel, and "original quality" is the only option you have. From Pixel 2, it's free-until-jan-16-2021 from Pixel 2, and you can choose normally between "high quality" and "original quality".)
12:16:52 <boily> it's the new iPhone from Alphabet.
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13:33:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Noirotm * New user account
13:36:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53267&oldid=53254 * Noirotm * (+262) Add introduction
13:58:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53268&oldid=52669 * Noirotm * (+231) Add link to the fishr interpreter
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20:53:13 <HackEgo> olist 1103: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:34:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53269&oldid=53268 * Noirotm * (-6) Fix title hierarchy
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00:09:32 <shachaf> How many wishes do you get from a fountain pen vs. a fountain penny?
00:10:38 <quintopia> at least 12 orders of magnitude more
00:10:56 <boily> “You finish putting on the +0 mask of the Dragon {MR+ Slay+3 SInv}.” I fscking love that artifact.
00:11:19 <boily> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.
00:11:40 <HackEgo> Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels.
00:12:30 <boily> helloochaf. considering that a fountain pen is called a "thousand year pen" in Chinese, and that gas is around 1.13 CAD/litre, then I'm guessing around 5 inches, give or take.
00:12:52 <shachaf> boily: I assume any pen thrown into a fountain becomes a fountain pen?
00:13:15 <boily> it may tint the fountain water a bit, though.
00:13:36 <boily> or quite a lot, if it's Noodler's Baystate Blue.
00:13:40 <shachaf> whoa, 1.13 CAD/litre is ~3.33 USD/gal
00:13:53 <shachaf> though still not as cheap as the US
00:14:26 <boily> quintopia: fountain pen ink is colourfully colourful hth
00:14:27 <pikhq> California tends to have rather pricy gas.
00:14:39 <shachaf> Here in NYC petrol is much cheaper than in the SF area.
00:14:53 <shachaf> But even in the SF area I think it's cheaper than what boily said.
00:15:53 <shachaf> Or at least it seemed cheaper based on a small sample.
00:16:02 <shachaf> I'd like petrol to be much more expensive.
00:16:34 <pikhq> Ah, looks like CA had fairly substantial drops in gas prices in recent years relative to the rest of the country.
00:17:26 <pikhq> Courtesy of new refinery capacity it seems?
00:17:47 <shachaf> What would you like petrol prices to be?
00:18:10 <pikhq> I'm not sure the *figure*, but I'd like for it to be priced to include the externalities.
00:18:17 <pikhq> Which are substantial.
00:18:46 <quintopia> taxes that are used to fund epa efforts
00:19:17 <quintopia> well first you stage a successful coup d'etat a la Luttwak
00:19:25 <pikhq> Determine roughly the impact caused by the pollution, as well as the influence on urban development from vehicles, and tax accordingly?
00:19:49 <pikhq> I don't know. You'd need a study to really accurately measure this.
00:19:50 <shachaf> Also I think the latter should maybe be a road tax or something instead of a petrol tax?
00:20:08 <shachaf> You can reduce traffic jams too by taxing actual road usage.
00:20:19 <quintopia> why tax electric vehicales who are already helping?
00:20:35 <shachaf> Helping what? Road congestion?
00:20:41 <pikhq> Because private auto ownership has a negative effect
00:20:53 <quintopia> helping move away from petrol usage
00:21:11 <pikhq> In the US, nobody's even bothered trying to accurately measure this stuff. Gas taxes here aren't to incentivize not-driving or anything, they're an attempt to pay for the upkeep of roads and that's all.
00:21:23 <pikhq> quintopia: Sure, and they wouldn't pay gas taxes in this scheme.
00:21:33 <quintopia> we should incentivise commercial trucks switching to electric somehow
00:21:48 <shachaf> What about the separate problem of oil being non-renewable? Should that be treated as an externality or should markets just deal with it?
00:22:01 <pikhq> But, the mere impact of private automobile use is quite significant.
00:22:26 <pikhq> shachaf: I suspect in this setup, it'd end up being a moot question.
00:22:39 <shachaf> Well, it's a more general question about non-renewable resources.
00:22:54 <pikhq> If we priced gas to include the external cost caused by its pollution, I can't imagine it'd remain popular for long.
00:23:12 <shachaf> i,i "it" being the government
00:23:13 <pikhq> I'm unclear on that.
00:23:45 <shachaf> In practice people are going to burn most of the oil within, I don't know, a hundred years? Probably less? However long it takes for prices to get high enough that people don't drive.
00:23:53 <shachaf> We're just burning it up, man.
00:23:58 <shachaf> And then we won't have any left to eat.
00:24:49 <shachaf> Of course, if you think it's going to be valuable for other uses later, you can speculate, and buy a bunch now and sell it later when prices get higher.
00:25:03 <shachaf> But it'll probably be a long time, maybe longer than the lifetime of a reasonable speculator?
00:25:20 <shachaf> So what does that mean? Are markets doing the "right thing"?
00:26:01 <shachaf> People are effectively selling oil/whatever for roughly the cost it takes to extract it. That cost seems kind of accidental, and too low, to me.
00:26:01 <pikhq> To my knowledge, most petroleum-derived stuff is only *cheapest* that way, not *unpractical* via other production methods.
00:26:36 <pikhq> If so, it's probably not that big of a deal if we're out?
00:27:15 <pikhq> I mean, it still seems a bit of an example of an unefficient market because nobody's paying the real cost of stuff, but...
00:28:43 <pikhq> But e.g. for fertilizer, oil is only used *at all* because it's a convenient source of hydrogen.
00:29:31 <shachaf> Right, http://www.env-econ.net/2013/12/env-econ-101-hotellings-rule-.html
00:29:42 <pikhq> There are (naturally) many, many ways of acquiring hydrogen.
00:31:00 <pikhq> Electrolysis of water is probably the worst case there, and even *now* it's actually used for some commercial ammonia production.
00:31:14 <pikhq> (mostly near hydroelectric plants with excess capacity)
00:31:38 <pikhq> Hydrogen's pretty useful, yeah.
00:32:03 <pikhq> Bit of a crap fuel, but it's a great element.
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00:58:32 <HackEgo> 1/3:time cube//EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (alrea
00:59:31 <HackEgo> 2/3:dy wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools. \ heh//heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps. \ `sled//`sled <filename>//<sed script> \ string diagram//String diagrams would be useful in category theory, except they're unreadable due to being curled up in tiny dimensions. Taneb invented them anyhow. \ roborosewater
00:59:52 <HackEgo> 3/3://RoboRosewater is generating random Magic: the Gathering cards, see https://mobile.twitter.com/roborosewater
01:00:13 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
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01:33:53 <shachaf> boily: https://twitter.com/Ngevd/status/918012736721883137 hth
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02:29:56 <boily> nooooooo! fungooooooooot!
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11:44:04 <boily> fungot: helloooooooooooooooo!
11:44:04 <fungot> boily: " so that the text by overprinting ' _____' on top. ve old input from somewhere. i've only skimmed the paper as he spoke, ' is the fnord"
11:44:20 <boily> fungot: please don't void me with a fnord hth
11:44:21 <fungot> boily: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xx, xxx, xxxx, xxxxx, xxxxxx, xxxxxxx, xxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxx
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13:52:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:55:18 <int-e> ^bf >++++++++++[>++++++++++++>+<<-]+[[<+>->.<]>>.<<<[>+<-]>+]
13:55:18 <fungot> x.xx.xxx.xxxx.xxxxx.xxxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...
13:55:44 <int-e> ^bf >++++++++[>++++++++++++++++>++++<<-]+[[<+>->.<]>>.<<<[>+<-]>+]
13:55:44 <fungot> ...
13:55:51 <int-e> ^bf >++++++++[>+++++++++++++++>++++<<-]+[[<+>->.<]>>.<<<[>+<-]>+]
13:55:51 <fungot> x xx xxx xxxx xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ...
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14:03:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Switchy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53270&oldid=37586 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+340)
14:05:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Switchy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53271&oldid=53270 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-6)
14:06:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Switchy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53272&oldid=53261 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-60)
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17:34:38 <\oren\> oh good, meeting with greg today
17:35:16 <\oren\> he can teach me more of the wunderbar C++1x features
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19:28:05 * impomatic is heading to the Computer Museum in Cambridge tomorrow.
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20:41:50 <Taneb> impomatic, oh wow, that's a really cool place! And not too far from me as it happens
20:42:11 <Taneb> I went a couple of months ago, my friends had to tear me away from a BBC Basic
20:53:49 <shachaf> I've been to the Computer History Museum in Mountain View
20:56:17 <impomatic> Taneb: they have a ZX Spectrum event tomorrow to celebrate 35 years.
20:57:10 <impomatic> I'd love to go to the museum in Mountain View.
20:57:37 <Taneb> impomatic, oh, cool!
20:57:55 <impomatic> shachaf: bit of a long trip for me!
20:58:44 <impomatic> I was wondering if they have any Core War stuff in their collection though. Since they used to be in Boston (or inherited the collection from the Boston museum)
21:00:23 <Taneb> impomatic, are you based in Cambridge?
21:01:04 <impomatic> No, Lincolnshire. It's a 3 hour trip on the train.
21:01:22 <impomatic> Plus a 6 mile walk at 4am to get to the train station :-O
21:01:48 <Taneb> Oh wow, dedication
21:02:36 <Taneb> I just have to cycle for quarter of an hour
21:03:56 <impomatic> Just so I can get to Cambridge by 8am. There's a train station 1/2 a mile away, but I'd arrive 3 hours later if I caught the train from there.
21:05:34 <Taneb> ...If I go tomorrow and see you, I'll have met face-to-face two people here, both of whose nicks begin with "i"
21:06:10 <Taneb> I'll be in at least the right country to meet izabera at New Years, if I want to continue this trend, I guess
21:08:57 <Taneb> But countries tend to be quite big, really
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21:42:12 <impomatic> Well if you go, I'll be the one wearing a dark red shirt :-)
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22:39:44 <fizzie> I've been in both, and the Mountain View one is fancier, but the Cambridge one has more personality.
22:40:47 <fizzie> (Do I remember right that the Cambridge one is the one in the sort of a shed?)
22:41:34 <Taneb> (great fun when it's raining)
22:42:15 <fizzie> Taneb: There was a place in London with a classroom's worth of BBC Micros, but I think it was a temporary thing.
22:43:09 <Taneb> fizzie, there's a place in Cambridge with that as a permanent thing ;)
22:43:17 <Taneb> Keep meaning to buy my own
22:44:26 <fizzie> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2017/04/02/a-room-full-of-bbc-microcomputers-comes-to-east-london/ there was also a bunch of other things
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23:25:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53273 * B jonas * (+10024) Created page with "'''Olvasható''' (also sometimes called '''Olvashato''' is a general purpose toy language created by [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]]. The olvasható source is compiled to a Prolog p..."
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23:39:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53274&oldid=53273 * B jonas * (+276)
23:40:18 <boily> b_jonas: b_jellonas. you have an unbalanced parenthesis hth
23:40:47 <zzo38> I have WildMidi in my computer, and some music it won't play so good. But, I think I figure out why it might be. I looked in the wildmidi.cfg, and, not all of the numbers 0 to 127 are listed under bank 0. Is that why it doesn't work? I looked in that directory, and it has only the files listed there; not the rest of them. How to obtain the rest of the files, and will this fix it if so?
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00:22:22 <HackEgo> quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator. He is flooded by thundercats and thunderdogs. He is the temporal antipode of boily despite living on the same continent.
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00:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53275&oldid=53274 * B jonas * (+3363)
00:47:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53276&oldid=53275 * B jonas * (+792)
00:48:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53277&oldid=53249 * B jonas * (+17)
00:49:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvashato]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53278 * B jonas * (+24) Redirected page to [[Olvasható]]
00:52:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53279&oldid=53276 * B jonas * (+42) /* Compiler */
00:53:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53280&oldid=53279 * B jonas * (+3) /* Links */
00:56:04 <quintopia> boily: what do you miss most about when you were 20
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01:58:27 <zzo38> How to acquire the rest of the GUS patch files for use with WildMIDI?
02:27:47 <zzo38> I do not have the file to test the interlacing and premultiplied alpha suggested at http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/info/31d44cd6c82733eb
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05:26:56 <doesthiswork> Brian Cantwell Smith says that every computation has both a meaning and mechanical realization.
05:27:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Insignificant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53281 * Doesthiswork * (+659) Created page with "<blockquote>Computing is best understood as a dialectical interplay of meaning and mechanism. <br> Brian Cantwell Smith [http://www.ageofsignificance.org/aos/en/aos-v1c0.html..."
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07:53:10 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/a/2l5Fm
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10:17:03 <int-e> hmm, https://xkcd.com/1906/ ... https://xkcd.com/1908/ ... I think I'm seeing a pattern here.
10:18:28 <int-e> and imgur should really distinguish videos from other pictures in the URI
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10:44:17 <int-e> of course sometimes a pattern is just a lazy cartoonist. http://thedevilspanties.com/archives/12149 http://thedevilspanties.com/archives/12155
10:45:44 <HoolooBOO> that's only 6 comics later, definitely part of the same series
11:00:07 <int-e> I accuse her of laziness because only one panel is actually new...
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11:01:31 <int-e> OTOH this is better than another "I have no good comic idea today so let's make a comic about comic ideas" comic.
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12:58:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainwang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53282 * Rdebath * (+5687) Is my assertion correct?
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14:18:10 <HackEgo> 1/3:false//false is a very old stack-based language. For an authentic experience, run it on an Amiga. It's also not true. \ markdown//The markdown flavor of the day is nutella. \ turkey//Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them into conflict with Ostrich. In th
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14:28:07 <doesthiswork> wouldn't that be the Hungry-Ostrich not just plain Ostrich?
14:33:17 <HackEgo> 2/3:e 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining, and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab. \ misspellings of croissant//misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ welcome//Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://
14:33:19 <HackEgo> 3/3:esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:56:53 <int-e> shish kebab goes well with feather dusters
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15:18:03 <int-e> Soon you'll be wearing my sword like a shish kebab! / First you better stop waving it about like a feather duster.
15:21:35 <int-e> it's not supposed to rhyme
15:21:55 <int-e> Hasn't any of you heathens played Monkey Island, I'm disappointed. :P
15:23:35 <shachaf> I played Monkey Island 3, where thee insults have to rhyme.
15:23:49 <shachaf> I also played the others but I think rhyming is better.
16:00:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53283&oldid=52265 * Hakatashi * (+6) /* Fugue */ Update hello world source URL
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17:16:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53284&oldid=53280 * Zzo38 * (+1)
17:19:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53285&oldid=53284 * Zzo38 * (+6)
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18:26:12 <zzo38> One part of one computer game I was make up, is, if you push 0 to call the operator, then instead is calling the operetta by mistake. They are playing John Philip Sousa's "Liberty Bell March".
18:27:33 <shachaf> Why not play a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta?
18:29:16 <zzo38> After you complete the game, the final screen is the operetta house and the music can be heard from the outside; that is when your wing is fixed, so unlike the other screens in this game, this screen represents a vertical view of the sky on top and ground on the bottom.
18:29:35 <zzo38> (I mean the final credit screen)
18:29:59 <zzo38> Maybe I could put a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta, but I did not think of that, for one thing.
18:32:41 <zzo38> Maybe that will be the sequel of the game.
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20:21:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53286&oldid=51718 * Osmarks * (+169)
20:21:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53287&oldid=53286 * Osmarks * (+0)
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20:32:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53288&oldid=53287 * Osmarks * (+532)
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20:38:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53289&oldid=53288 * Osmarks * (+271)
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21:12:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53290&oldid=53289 * Osmarks * (+1437)
21:17:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53291&oldid=53290 * Osmarks * (+273)
21:19:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53292&oldid=53291 * Osmarks * (-6)
21:19:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53293&oldid=53292 * Osmarks * (-6) /* Example Programs */
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21:27:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53294&oldid=53293 * Osmarks * (+171)
21:28:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53295&oldid=53294 * Osmarks * (+66)
21:29:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53296&oldid=53295 * Osmarks * (-11) Fix <pre>
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21:57:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53297&oldid=53296 * Osmarks * (+7) /* Example Programs */
21:58:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53298&oldid=53297 * Osmarks * (+38) /* Example Programs */
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22:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53299&oldid=53298 * Osmarks * (-42)
22:29:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53300&oldid=53285 * B jonas * (+527)
22:31:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53301&oldid=53299 * Osmarks * (+397)
22:32:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53302&oldid=53301 * Osmarks * (+166) Unbreak broken table
22:32:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53303&oldid=53302 * Osmarks * (+1) Really unbreak tables
22:49:08 <impomatic> taneb: did you go to the museum today? I was there but for some reason couldn't get on IRC using the museum's wifi
22:49:33 <Taneb> impomatic, I didn't, I'm afraid!
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23:18:20 <HackEgo> 1/2:thirt//A thirt is for throwsing snowballs at forty things. \ usa//USA apparently doesn't stand for United State Automaton. \ ghoti//“Ghoti” is a very fishy spelling. \ freefull//FreeFull the Unpronounceable is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure. \ twh//twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. han
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23:40:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l//rn: No such file or directory
23:40:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l/rn: No such file or directory
23:41:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: l\\rn: not found
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23:47:36 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
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23:51:35 <quintopia> `le/rn Seventh Day Adventism//Seventh Day Adventism is an attempt to bugfix an off-by-one error in Anabaptism
23:51:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'seventh day adventism': Seventh Day Adventism is an attempt to bugfix an off-by-one error in Anabaptism
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00:49:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53304&oldid=53300 * B jonas * (-54) /* Compiler */
00:57:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: I have fixed the things you requested for Farbfeld Utilities. (However, I do not have the file to test the "rgbff" program.)
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01:12:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: to test rgbff with what input?
01:12:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Correct Syntax Error]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53305&oldid=35965 * Elronnd * (+381) Another idea
01:13:23 <wob_jonas> if you want abgr with premultiplied alpha, then I'll have to export one of those from a program with cairo
01:15:03 <wob_jonas> if you want one that's planewise interlaced, then I'll get a raw yuv444 image
01:24:56 <zzo38> wob_jonas: With any input; you can test it yourself if you want to, and write another complaint in there if you find that it doesn't work. (You can wait until you need it, if you want to.)
01:26:05 <wob_jonas> then I'll have to test with those special options as well as just ordinary raw bgr and grayscale images
01:27:52 <zzo38> Yes, that is how it is working.
01:28:56 <wob_jonas> I will be able to test with various formats
01:30:40 <wob_jonas> also, ff as an abbreviation for the german Farb-feld makes so much sense that now I wonder what ffmpeg was named of
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01:32:36 <zzo38> I don't know either. (But "ff" as an abbreviation for farbfeld is used in the official package as well, not only my own.)
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01:38:02 <wob_jonas> Hmm. The if(v>65535) v=65535; statement in outconv in ff-matrix.c is useless now. I wonder why I left it in.
01:41:04 <zzo38> Wikipedia says "FFmpeg" is for "fast forward".
01:41:32 <shachaf> How does "mpeg" stand for "ast orward"?
01:42:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: mp stands for motion picture, which makes sense for ffmpeg
01:44:30 <wob_jonas> is it still fast forward in "ffplay"? because that one plays videos at normal speed
01:47:22 <wob_jonas> I can't even run the Olvasható compiler with modern ruby. They changed the syntax too much for my programs.
01:49:33 <wob_jonas> I'm trying to decode what it does, since it's 11 years old code I don't really remember
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01:08:30 <wob_jonas> oh right! in t1n.olv, I implement the loop function with the Y-combinator technique, without explicit recursion
01:08:38 <wob_jonas> but it makes sense to use it to test the compiler
01:24:53 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/a/7Epmp
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01:40:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53306&oldid=53304 * B jonas * (+2119)
01:45:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53307&oldid=53306 * B jonas * (+151)
01:53:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53308&oldid=53307 * B jonas * (-212)
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02:04:00 <wob_jonas> I don't get it. Where does the compiler actually determine whether the match is exhaustive? I don't see the corresponding code
02:09:36 <wob_jonas> This is ridiculous. That code must be big. How did it detect the non-exhaustiveness?
02:10:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53309&oldid=53308 * B jonas * (-751)
02:14:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Olvasható]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53310 * B jonas * (+838) Created page with "== Implicit catch-all abort arm? == It seems as if compiler added an extra aborting arm to non-exhausting <code>let</code> match expressions. You can see such an example in..."
03:09:58 <zzo38> One thing I thought of just now is with using the rgbff with a television like interlacing, where you have odd field and even field lines.
03:10:35 <zzo38> You could do with two planes, one red and one green, and then to do ff-tensor and ff-matrix to combine them into one picture. (You can then ff-dntsc to restore the colours.)
03:13:03 <HackEgo> [U+130BA EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D053]
03:37:11 <Elronnd> ...but which egyptian hieroglyph is it?
03:38:29 <zzo38> I don't know Egyptian so well
03:43:46 <zzo38> Do you have a METAFONT program to make Egyptian hieroglyphics?
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06:45:02 <Taneb> Just remembered a maths lecture I had a couple of years back covering the Nullstellensatz
06:45:49 <Taneb> Lecturer was trying to translate the name into English, and said "null means zero, stellen means points, satz means theorem... the zero point theorem?"
06:45:59 <Taneb> And me being me I shouted out "The pointless theorem?"
06:46:07 <Taneb> And he said "YES! ...no."
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09:22:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53311&oldid=53303 * Osmarks * (+23)
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13:54:56 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
13:56:43 <boily> Fungot (1BB) Creature ― Fungatog; Phasing, Shroud, Shadow. “Fnord.”
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14:08:00 <boily> What should fungot's P/T be?
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14:08:08 <boily> fungot: are you powerful?
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14:30:52 <int-e> maybe 1/3, with a +1/0 in irc style.
14:37:12 <int-e> Oh are there any new interesting developments in CaC land? Any new scams?
14:37:47 <int-e> (this came out of pondering the various causes of fungot's phasing)
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15:11:07 <boily> {B}: Fungot gains +1/-1 and lifelink.
15:11:12 <boily> what's a CaC again?
15:18:56 <int-e> that provider that shall not be named
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15:56:51 <quintopia> whats the today plan? tile shuffling?
15:59:11 <int-e> boily: btw I would've thought of fungot as blue, not black.
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17:22:00 <zzo38> Maybe to write, "gains +1/-1 and lifelink until end of turn"
17:23:22 <zzo38> (And, I also don't know what color to put; but you don't need to have only one.)
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19:44:12 <wob_jonas> Haha! After pbf and xkcd, smbc tackles the wishing well too.
19:45:19 <wob_jonas> http://pbfcomics.com/comics/wishing-well/ https://www.xkcd.com/561/ https://www.xkcd.com/568/ http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/wishing-well
19:47:41 <wob_jonas> Yeah, technically the xkcd well isn't a wishing well. Xkcd has eyelash wishes and a wish-granting genie instead.
19:49:10 <wob_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/152/ is the genie, which story I then used in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395
19:49:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: let me tell you about the latest bad user interface design I've seen
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20:01:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: so there's this underground here, the M3. its tunnel was built to also serve as an underground bomb shelter back in the cold war scare.
20:02:43 <int-e> http://dilbert.com/strip/1992-04-09
20:03:37 <wob_jonas> in most stations on the platforms, there's two fancy emergency buttons, one with a yellow box with a speaker and microphone to talk to an operator, with encouraging labels next to them about how there's a first aid box and defibrillator machine available at the station master's office,
20:03:59 <int-e> also, "well" is a terrible search term, and even worse when the search engine will also match it with "we'll".
20:04:31 <wob_jonas> and one with a red or black cover and the button presumably underneath saying it's an emergency stop button that shuts down the power at the rails that you must press if someone falls to the tracks, to protect them from electric shock and to stop the train
20:04:51 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, and "wishing well" is also ambiguous
20:05:12 -!- evilmoony has changed nick to moonytheawoo.
20:05:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: so anyway, a few days ago on Kőbánya-Kispest station, which is one of the few surface (not underground) stations of metro M3, I saw that there's a new fancy box:
20:06:36 <wob_jonas> this one has *three* emergency buttons mounted on it, one below the other. on top, there's a yellow box with speaker and button to talk to the operator
20:07:20 <wob_jonas> in the middle, there's a black cover with large label saying emergency stop and pull if someone has fallen on the tracks, but no button in sight because it's behind the cover presumably
20:07:59 <wob_jonas> and in the bottom there's a red panel with a nicely visible button (emergency style hidden behind a small transparent panel) and small label saying it's a fire alarm button
20:08:43 <wob_jonas> If someone falls to the tracks and someone quickly has to press the emergency stop button, he'll very likely press the fire alarm button by mistake, and then he'll have to evacuate the station because there's a fire alarm
20:08:51 <ais523> so you're worried that people will set off the fire alarm trying to stop someone getting electrocuted
20:09:05 <wob_jonas> hopefully the fire alarm ALSO has the side effect of shutting down the electricity
20:09:16 <ais523> in the UK I don't think we have a standard "cut power" button on the Underground
20:09:21 <ais523> or any such button at all
20:09:26 <ais523> we have a standard fire alarm call point design though
20:09:33 <wob_jonas> but who knows, this is an end terminal, so the train LEAVING the station in case of a fire might actually be a good idea
20:09:37 <ais523> in the Underground, it's silent so as to not cause panic
20:10:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: there's not much point for a specific fire alarm button I think. for that, you'd press the operator button.
20:10:46 <wob_jonas> and call people to evacuate when possible
20:11:55 <wob_jonas> the operator phone doesn't seem too useful either, because everyone has a mobile phone, there's guaranteed mobile phone reception in the underground stations, so you can just call the emergency services who contact the operator
20:12:09 <wob_jonas> the power cut button? that one IS absolutely useful, and should be there
20:12:53 <wob_jonas> there's already a few people hit by the metro every year (though most of them deliberately commit suicide by jumping just when the train is coming, so the button wouldn't help, but still)
20:17:51 <wob_jonas> All the metro carriages of M3 and M2 have an call button with mic by the way, which calls the train driver, and the driverless M4 has similar buttons that call an operator.
20:18:26 <wob_jonas> They also have emergency door opener handles, and the older M3 carriages also have emergency break handles.
20:19:09 <wob_jonas> Luckily they omitted the emergency break from the newer types of metro, which is good, because an emergency break in a metro is a bad idea anyway.
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20:20:12 <fungot> wob_jonas: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:20:42 <int-e> the fungot style is a bit to fungotty
20:20:42 <fungot> int-e: ( c) a player resigns from an office has whatever duties, then 3 extra " 0" and ( down-from n ( 0
20:20:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:21:02 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
20:22:16 <HackEgo> coruscant:Trantor is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. \ farbfeld:zzo38's Farbfeld utilities is a package of command-line programs (with rather strange command-line syntax) for manipulating images in a specific raw format called farbfeld. It's somewhat underdoc
20:23:45 <HackEgo> Who cares about ancient cases anyway?
20:43:25 <zzo38> Do you have source codes of bdftopcf and pcftobdf programs? This way, can learn working of such format, to make program that can make PCF fonts; I can also then add the support into SDLTERM (which currently does not support custom fonts; it only has a single built-in font).
20:45:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: let me check, the debian package repository probably knows which package they come from and where their source is
20:46:12 <wob_jonas> https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=bdftopcf&mode=path&suite=stable&arch=any says it's the xfonts-utils package
20:47:23 <int-e> @tell oerjan Re: Who cares about ancient cases anyway? / To whom it may concern...
20:47:27 <wob_jonas> which links to https://www.x.org/releases/individual/app/ for tarballs
20:56:28 <int-e> what has become of xlswins?
20:56:51 <zzo38> Also, do you know how to get the missing patch files for WildMIDI? I noticed some are missing, and perhaps that is why some MIDI files won't play properly.
20:58:13 <wob_jonas> int-e: that said, it's possible that bdftopcf is older than the whole x.org and it's inherinted those utilities mostly unchanged from ancient X11
20:58:44 <wob_jonas> I don't know anything about xlswins or WildMIDI or MIDI in general
20:59:09 <int-e> zzo38: I suspect that was for you
21:05:21 <int-e> Hah. X11R5: "xlswins has been removed; it is replaced by xwininfo -tree."
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21:07:09 <zzo38_> A extended pcf format can be made up, with two additional tables, which are the ligature/kern table and the extended character table. These tables are used only if ligature mode is activated in the program that selects these fonts, and the extended character table is then used when the ligature/kern table references it.
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21:12:18 <zzo38> Do you think it can be good?
21:13:57 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't see a point. just use the modern formats like otf. they can store graymap images, even though that rarely gets used these days, or just hinted vector fonts.
21:14:28 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I want nice fonts with gray pixels, they are better than bitmaps, only much harder to make
21:14:43 <wob_jonas> sure, pcf was nice back in the slow computers and small memory devices, but these days we can have better
21:14:45 <zzo38> I prefer pure bitmap fonts; to me, I think they look better than graymaps.
21:15:11 <wob_jonas> they look better than a lot of bad fonts, sure
21:16:42 <zzo38> However, my suggestion for the new version of X protocol anyways, that the protocol doesn't care about the file format used for fonts, although pcf is a recommended format, it can support other formats too if they want to. However, two flags must be selected by the client that selects the font, which are EnableLigatures and EnableAntialiasing.
21:17:25 <zzo38> Graymaps (or even full colours) can't be displayed if EnableAntialiasing is not set (in such case, it may hit to pure bitmaps instead), while astral Unicode characters won't be available if EnableLigatures is not set.
21:18:48 <zzo38> (If the server (or the font format) does not support those flags, they will simply be ignored, as though they aren't selected.)
21:20:08 <zzo38> I don't really like otf and that stuff, but this new proposed system nevertheless doesn't care and would be potentially capable of using them if you want to do.
21:21:23 <zzo38> Now do you think this one can be good?
21:23:33 <wob_jonas> you talked about this already. I answered that fonts are irrelevant for the X protocol these days. the X protocol just gets the client to map memory and graphics processor control for windows they have, and they do the rendering themselves in client-side stuff
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21:25:14 <zzo38> That can't work in case of remote clients though.
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21:37:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it still can work. it's just slower because the rendered pixmap stuff has to get forwarded through the network. the X server still doesn't know about client-side font rendering then.
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21:39:28 <wob_jonas> remote X still more or less works on modern systems, just like other kinds of remote desktops
21:39:56 <int-e> for most modern programs it's a bandwidth hog.
21:40:50 <wob_jonas> you have to pay for transmitting fancy graphics
21:40:52 <int-e> Running things in Xvnc works much better. Or use xpra.
21:40:57 <wob_jonas> you can tone down the features in that case
21:41:27 <wob_jonas> but I don't really care about remote X
21:43:43 <int-e> I care a bit, though mostly for silly stuff. The main point is that I'm bandwidth limited at home, but not at work, so having a remote browser download stuff is convenient. And occasionally, links just doesn't do the trick and I resort to firefox in Xvnc.
21:45:17 <int-e> And since the point is to save bandwidth, having 10MB transfer just for getting the browser window displayed once isn't good either... that's the order of magnitude I'm observing with dumb X forwarding.
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22:18:14 <zzo38> I am making a program to render PC CGA screens (both text and graphics mode; both raw and BSAVE)
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22:46:55 <zzo38> Why does PC have its own cursor blink logic instead of using the 6845 cursor blink logic?
23:02:20 <int-e> I don't understand the question; from what I'm reading the text cursor *is* managed by the 6845 on CGA?
23:04:58 <zzo38> The cursor position is managed by 6845, but not the cursor blinking.
23:05:27 <zzo38> (This can be seen if you look at the schematics.)
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23:17:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53312&oldid=53159 * Challenger5 * (+79)
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23:21:42 <fungot> ATMunn: a meeting.) if any of the ena and affiliated and unaffiliated with wptf on many california pipelines that could have helped the state had an outstanding season, finishing the facility that we
23:22:06 <fungot> ATMunn: we end up the indemnity. aquila. 330853915 telex: inmarsat fax no. 713/ 646-7341 internal extension 33866 or kathy willard, vice president of the only one.
23:22:23 * ATMunn pokes fungot one last time
23:22:23 <fungot> ATMunn: on an isda schedule/ credit, for the lessor of 40, where the above mentioned questions of the california legislature the generators that have previously, in notice to members PHASH 01-333 ( http://www.nymex.com/ refernce/ notices/ 2001
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00:22:52 * boily pokes ATMunn poking fungot
00:22:53 <fungot> boily: source international brotherhood of electrical workers. robert paul, and were not written, the group." photo of the account on the deal for the troubled power grid to them to do the best for you.
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01:19:48 <zzo38> Is good, they made the IBM PC technical reference book. If I make up the new computer, the book would also include all of that stuff too; the complete description of all memory map, hardware registers, schematics, BIOS source codes, instruction set, video interface, etc.
01:20:08 <zzo38> To me, I think would be good idea; it should be needing to have.
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04:44:37 <zzo38> I have a program called DRAWX; its .DRX file format seems to be just the raw screen data with no header. (I wrote a program just now to display raw PC screen data, and it does display.)
04:45:17 <zzo38> (At least this is true for CGA modes; I don't know about EGA, VGA, and Hercules modes.)
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05:55:07 <zzo38> Now my Farbfeld Utilities package includes programs for reading thirteen formats and for writing eleven formats (in both cases, not counting farbfeld, which all the programs in the package support anyways).
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10:55:02 <HackEgo> 1/2:hallucination//You are just imagining this wisdom entry. \ `3//`3 is the obvious generalization of `2 or `4, trying too hard to confuse everyone. \ chuchichäschtli//chuchichäschtli is spoken as [ˈχʊχːiˌχæʃːtli] \ integer//An integer is a number that does not contain a wildcard that matches any character other than a line fee
10:55:04 <HackEgo> 2/2:d. \ alumni//Alumni is a compromise spelling suggested to solve the aluminum vs aluminium debate that never really caught on, except in a few big colleges.
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12:00:45 <shachaf> I didn't expect that to be a b_jonasdom.
12:02:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: re cursor blinking, is that about the orignal PC?
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14:13:33 <b_jonas> wow! we must be in the future. the FSzEK library now accepts online payments for my late library loans.
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14:21:46 <int-e> tick tock tick tock... oh that kind of library.
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15:55:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes this cursor blinking I wrote about the original PC.
15:56:08 <zzo38> But, maybe it is because they want the cursor blinking to be synchronized with the text blinking.
16:01:15 <zzo38> Even so, the way they implemented it, means, cannot make non-blinking cursor.
16:02:08 <zzo38> (Although I suppose you could still turn on the 6845 cursor blinking too, and then the cursor might be result strangely blink.)
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16:14:35 <zzo38> If you know some thing about the PC CGA, maybe, you can see if my program for rendering a picture from the data for CGA into farbfeld, is good or has something wrong with it. One thing I notice is that the picture isn't centred, but I don't know if it is supposed to be centre or not.
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16:39:17 <quintopia> zzo38: is there a wiki for esoteric chess variants
16:45:21 <zzo38> I don't know, but, you can make up a esoteric chess variant if you like to; just make the text file, I suppose.
16:46:53 <quintopia> zzo38: where do you keep all your chess variants so that people looking for chess variants can find them?
16:56:11 <zzo38> Many of them I just wrote on paper and haven't put it into the computer.
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17:19:14 <quintopia> Dimension X seems like a pretty fun variant
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19:13:14 <b_jonas> I found yet another place with digital versions of the ed. Iványi ''Algorithms of informatics'' book.
19:13:24 <b_jonas> http://www.tankonyvtar.hu/hu/tartalom/tamop425/0046_algorithms_of_informatics_volume1/adatok.html http://www.tankonyvtar.hu/hu/tartalom/tamop425/0046_algorithms_of_informatics_volume2/adatok.html http://www.tankonyvtar.hu/hu/tartalom/tamop425/0046_algorithms_of_informatics_volume3/adatok.html
19:13:40 <b_jonas> these are probably the latest English versions, but the formatting doesn't seem to be so great
19:16:20 <zzo38> Do you know why the border of the CGA picture is not uniform? Is it supposed to be like that?
19:16:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe you have the sync signals in it?
19:18:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: I thought I made it so that the duration of the sync signals does not output any pixels, and only marks from one scanline to the next one.
19:21:50 <zzo38> But, maybe I did it wrong?
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19:33:02 <b_jonas> or you're passing the signal through a noisy analog cable
19:33:15 <b_jonas> or something is changing the border color within a frame
19:33:32 <zzo38> I looked at the source-codes of the program "bdftopcf" but it doesn't actually have the implementation of the format; it seem to call other library to do that.
19:34:56 <zzo38> b_jonas: I implemented it entirely by software emulation, so that can't be the problem.
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21:20:39 <fizzie> Huh. "System peripheral: Intel Corporation Skylake Gaussian Mixture Model".
21:20:49 <fizzie> Wonder what that's all about.
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22:15:14 <int-e> https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jece/2013/129589/ perhaps
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23:09:26 <fizzie> There's also https://sigport.org/documents/implementation-efficient-low-power-deep-neural-networks-next-generation-intel-client https://sigport.org/sites/default/files/docs/PosterFinal.pdf
23:10:01 <fizzie> Not much documentation, but I guess it's only meant to be used via Intel's SDK thingummies.
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23:53:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Truttle1 * New user account
00:01:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53313&oldid=53267 * Truttle1 * (+267) /* Introductions */
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01:46:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMATINY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53314&oldid=31904 * Rottytooth * (-13) /* External resources */ had old link
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08:30:49 <Taneb> Happy programmer christmas
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11:21:52 <fungot> boily: could we schedule more out of an input cost basis for the charge to the will of the attached to the four ( 4) on dwr's power purchase and sale of power, to create the need to: call today
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14:12:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMATINY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53315&oldid=53314 * Oerjan * (+30) /* External resources */ Those aren't very external and the archive has moved
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19:34:59 <\oren\> Listening to 猫しCorp. when suddenly I hear a familiar voice https://youtu.be/huctiWGZkt8?t=19m36s
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22:12:25 <zzo38> What are the values of resistors R3, R5, R6, R7, R8, R9, and R10, of PC CGA schematics?
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22:21:57 <boily> fungot: spooky pumpkin.
22:21:58 <fungot> boily: ( in the from a free deluxe, which the power of the option of going the opposite of what to do."
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