←2017-10 2017-11 2017-12→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:04:20 <quintopia> do you like hellaweenie
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00:36:44 <zzo38> I found the source codes of a QBASIC program which I had used before to transfer files from one computer to another over the RS-232 port; the computers used different disks, so I was unable to use a disk to transfer the files.
00:37:18 <zzo38> Here is the code in case it interests you: http://sprunge.us/RJdY
00:38:19 <zzo38> (I think this program is a bit unusual in using PRINT instead of PUT to write the output, but, this still worked.)
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00:53:40 <boily> quintopia: it has food!
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00:59:33 <zzo38> I found out how the DRAWX .VEC format is working: It is a headerless file with a number of five byte records, which consist of a command code (a single ASCII character) and then two small-endian 16-bit numbers, being X and Y coordinates scaled into the range 0 to 1000 (where (0,0) is the top-left corner). Commands are 'P' to set a point, 'L' to draw a line, and 'X' for end of file.
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01:32:45 <zzo38> Do you know what this notation means? [w=w p9(+100b)] [d=w+m p6] [wi=sq+c p15] [li=sp15] [r=bad] [f=c12 p7] [w1=w+a p0(+50b)] [w2=w p14(+15b)] [f2=t p7] [r2=baht]
01:34:31 <zzo38> (I found it in a file titled "TONYROOM", which seems to be a room layout, together with the cost)
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05:26:50 <zzo38> There is two program for displaying farbfeld pictures, lel and ff-xwin. But, lel is a larger program, has some things that I should should be better to put in other program, and does not even deal with the colours of the display properly like X clients should do.
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10:13:30 <shiro`> hi..
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17:02:02 <Hooloovo0> https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/?cb=1
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17:13:59 <quintopia> it seems like most of the languages are all clustered together on the left in "not-too-disliked" territory, but ruby, coffeescript, objective-c, and php are significantly more disliked (let's say "moderately disliked") while perl, delphi, and vba are way out to the right in "heavily disliked" territory
17:14:31 <quintopia> which i find surprising. i can understand the perl hate, but i would not have predicted delphi being further right than php
17:15:21 <Hooloovo0> yeah, really confused about PHP not being right near the bottom
17:42:47 <quintopia> sup
18:03:04 <Hooloovo0> nothing much, school stuff mostly
18:17:25 <Slereah_> lol VBA
18:17:29 <Slereah_> i had to work in VBA once
18:17:34 <Slereah_> It was not much fun
18:18:04 <Slereah_> Javascript isn't as high on the list as I thought
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19:33:57 <quintopia> `l//rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:34:00 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l//rn: No such file or directory
19:34:27 <quintopia> `l/rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:34:28 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l/rn: No such file or directory
19:34:51 <quintopia> one day i'll remember commands names
19:35:43 <fizzie> `` ls le/*
19:35:44 <HackEgo> le/rm \ le/rn \ le/rn_append
19:36:14 <fizzie> Hmm.
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19:36:17 <fizzie> `cat le/rm
19:36:18 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ rm-p "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
19:36:25 <fizzie> I guess that makes some sort of sense.
19:36:39 <fizzie> It's slightly annoying the way those aren't in /hackenv/bin, but, you know, slashes.
19:37:32 <quintopia> `le/rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:37:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'fun fact ': fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:37:54 <fizzie> I was just going to unrecommend the spaces.
19:38:02 <quintopia> yeah
19:38:31 <quintopia> now whats the edit command
19:38:49 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's|^ ||' < 'wisdom/fun fact ' > 'wisdom/fun fact'; rm 'wisdom/fun fact '
19:38:51 <HackEgo> No output.
19:39:01 <fizzie> I've always found it easier to just edit the files instead of trying to remember the commands.
19:39:16 <quintopia> yeah, but i know there is one
19:39:27 <fizzie> There's one for editing contents, I don't think it's generic enough to also edit the file name.
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19:39:45 <quintopia> slwd or sth
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19:40:18 <fizzie> That sounds likely.
19:40:23 <fizzie> `head bin/sled bin/slwd
19:40:24 <HackEgo> head: cannot open ‘bin/sled bin/slwd’ for reading: No such file or directory
19:40:26 <fizzie> `` head bin/sled bin/slwd
19:40:27 <HackEgo> ​==> bin/sled <== \ [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" ; \ \ ==> bin/slwd <== \ cd wisdom; sled "$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
19:41:02 <fizzie> Yeah, sled for the generic thing and slwd for the wisdom-specific one.
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21:21:17 <wob_jonas> What the heck? So "central heating" in English refers to a different and much broader concept than in Hungarian? What's WRONG with the English language?
21:22:05 <ais523> what does it mean in Hungarian?
21:22:12 <wob_jonas> Apparently in English, "central heating" means any form of heating the interior of a building that doesn't have separate heat generators per room.
21:22:18 <ais523> in English it refers to a system in which there's a house-wide system for heating, as opposed to having a separate heater in each room
21:22:57 <ais523> this is almost always accomplished via the use of a centralised hot water boiler + radiators that radiate the heat from the water into the room
21:23:20 <wob_jonas> In Hungarian, "központi fűtés" only refers to a subset, namely heating buildings where multiple houses are heated by a hot water generator as a communal city infrastructure service.
21:23:45 <ais523> oh, I don't think we even need a word for that in English, it's very rarely used here
21:24:07 <ais523> I'd argue that translating that into "central heating" is misleading
21:24:45 <wob_jonas> Which is cheaper in theory than other forms of heating (definitely cheaper if you live near a power plant), and has less maintenance problems, but also offers less control for the individual apartment owners, because they still have to pay when they don't want to heat their apartment.
21:25:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: even in big cities, or in cities near big power plants?
21:26:10 <ais523> I live in the biggest city in the UK (second-biggest if you consider the whole of London a city; for weird historical reasons only a very small proportion is)
21:26:14 <ais523> we don't have anything like that here
21:27:05 <wob_jonas> ok
21:28:53 <ais523> it makes sense, I guess it's just that people in the UK don't like living near power plants, and many of our power plants aren't suitable for combined-heat-and-power anyway
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21:29:36 <wob_jonas> So it's not just one of the places where communal heating is impractical because houses are spread too far apart, or because the climate is so warm that people rarely need heating even in the winter, or because oil is so cheap that people leave the engine of old fuel-hog buses on all night because the engine has a bit of trouble starting up.
21:30:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: the power plant is the rare case, most people in Budapest don't get heating from them, but the one special case of Paks where everyone has their house heated to too hot and aren't allowed to set the radiators to cooler because the power plant needs cooling should count.
21:31:32 <ais523> in the UK it's usual to see steam towers when factories or power plants need cooling
21:31:47 <ais523> high chimneys which let hot steam into the atmosphere, it cools quickly because it's a gas
21:31:50 <ais523> and we have plenty of water here
21:32:43 <fizzie> ais523: wob_jonas: The Finnish literal translation of "central heating" (keskuslämmitys) means what the Hungarian term means, and it's also almost ubiquitous in cities.
21:32:45 <wob_jonas> Well sure, it's not an accident that the biggest power plant of the country, in Paks, is next to the Danube.
21:33:43 <wob_jonas> Luckily I've never lived in a place that has communal heating.
21:33:57 <ais523> I think building a CHP system in the UK would be unlikely nowadays because new power plants are normally nuclear (and people are unwilling to want cooling water from a nuclear power station in their radiators), or wind/tidal (which can't be used for CHP)
21:34:35 <wob_jonas> The two apartments where I lived with my parents were really cold, and both had a one per apartment water boiler standing radiator (no floor heating) central heating.
21:35:18 <wob_jonas> The apartment where I live now is much warmer even if I don't turn any heating on, because unlike the previous ones, it's heated by the apartment under and the others around it, and also has better insulation.
21:35:50 <fizzie> ais523: wob_jonas: Actually, sorry -- misremembered. In fact "keskuslämmitys" means something closer to central heating, and "kaukolämpö" (lit. "far heat") means the other one.
21:36:14 <fizzie> Also I thought "district heating" was the English word?
21:36:20 <wob_jonas> I haven't had to turn on heating yet, I'll turn it on the first time I feel cold any early morning in the bed under the thick down (feather) duvet with all windows closed.
21:36:33 <fizzie> "District heating (also known as heat networks or teleheating) is a system for distributing heat generated in a centralized location for residential and commercial heating requirements such as space heating and water heating. The heat is often obtained from a cogeneration plant burning fossil fuels but increasingly also biomass, although heat-only boiler stations, geothermal heating, heat pumps and
21:36:39 <fizzie> central solar heating are also used, as well as nuclear power."
21:36:40 <ais523> fizzie: possibly; it's rare enough that I don't know what the word is
21:36:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I don't know the English words for all this.
21:37:12 <fizzie> I believe there's some of this in London.
21:37:12 <wob_jonas> Yes, that's correct, it also provides water heating as a side effect.
21:37:19 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating#United_Kingdom
21:38:03 <wob_jonas> Oh, and this apartment has two per-room enclosed burning space municipal gas heaters as the main heating source.
21:38:47 <fizzie> And, yeah, it's pretty popular where I came from: "In Finland district heating accounts for about 50% of the total heating market, 80% of which is produced by combined heat and power plants. Over 90% of apartment blocks, more than half of all terraced houses, and the bulk of public buildings and business premises are connected to a district heating network."
21:38:56 <ais523> I think the majority of houses over here use a gas boiler for heating
21:39:17 <fizzie> ais523: That's my impression as well, from coworker talk.
21:39:35 <ais523> electric heaters are common if you only want to heat one room, or want heat only rarely
21:39:43 <fizzie> This apartment is all-electric, which I think is considered a little uncommon.
21:40:12 <ais523> yes, not unheard of but rare
21:40:13 <fizzie> Feels like it costs a lot, though the only point of reference I have is our apartment in Finland.
21:40:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: gas boiler still accounts for multiple heating systems. it can be per apartment, or a central one for a small building with the water boiler in a scary damp cellar to scare children with, or district heating; and it can use ordinary wall-mounted radiators or floor heating pipes.
21:40:52 <ais523> gas is much more efficient at heating than electricity is; many power plants are gas-fired anyway, and burning the gas in your home means you get all the energy from the gas as heat, as opposed to using electricity where much of the energy was lost at the power plant
21:41:08 <ais523> (the exception is if the electricity comes from a renewable source but the UK is nowhere near 100% renewable yet)
21:41:35 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, the details can vary a lot
21:41:51 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I hear all electric is common in Sweden because they have cheaper electricity, and small towns with too thin and cold soil so it's difficult to maintain pipes for municipal gas.
21:42:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: renewable source doesn't imply that it's efficient, but sure
21:42:24 <ais523> the heating system in this house was changed a couple of years ago to use a different sort of centralised boiler, the old one was much larger than the current standard and built into the walls
21:42:41 <wob_jonas> in general gas heating is more efficient, but there are all sorts of details that can make it hard to use
21:42:42 <ais523> the old one used a chimney, the new one just has a vent through the nearest wall (but is self-contained)
21:43:01 <fizzie> There's also an electric "immersion heater" in here, which runs once a day to heat up a bunch of water. It feels really odd to have all this infrastructure invidiually per-apartment, in an apartment building. Back in Finland it was all invisible, somewhere in the building basement.
21:43:47 <ais523> we used to have an immersion heater which we never used, that was changed in the refit though
21:43:56 <wob_jonas> also if you have gas heating, there's the overly bureaucratic chimney maintenance service which is supposed to be taking care of people's safety, especially against carbon monoxide poisoning, but actually just keep inventing frequently changing random rules to screw with people.
21:44:01 <fizzie> Oh, and an electric shower. I don't think I've ever seen one in Finland.
21:44:21 <ais523> it's very common to have a batch water heating system here, with a hot water tank that's re-heated once or twice a day
21:44:26 <wob_jonas> The rules change more frequently than the normal lifetime of any sort of heating appliance.
21:44:28 <ais523> normally you have controls to set the exact schedule
21:44:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: in the UK it's strongly recommended that you fit a carbon monoxide alarm but there are no rules actually requiring it
21:44:50 <wob_jonas> You don't have any of that trouble with district heating in Budapest
21:44:55 <ais523> that I'm aware of, at least
21:45:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, but that's not enough
21:45:21 <fizzie> (An "electric shower" is a thing that's connected to a cold water supply, and it heats water up on-demand as it's used.)
21:46:02 <ais523> fizzie: right, those are very common in the UK, even in houses which otherwise use gas heating
21:46:13 <ais523> although mixer showers that work by mixing hot and cold water are also common
21:46:29 <ais523> the problem with using the regular hot water supply for a shower is that it has a tendency to run out when you're using a batch water heater
21:46:33 <ais523> so not everyone in the house can have a hot shower
21:46:49 <alercah> mix taps are completely standard here
21:46:55 <alercah> usually with only one control
21:46:58 <wob_jonas> Even for this apartment they manage to keep complaining about something, not about the room heating because the enclosed space heaters are simple and can't cause any trouble, but about the small boiler for hot water generation.
21:47:26 <fizzie> Ours is a very basic model, so you only have three heating settings (cold, one heater, two heaters) and you do the temperature control by adjusting the water flow. Makes for a really sad excuse of a shower, but at least it never runs out.
21:47:43 <wob_jonas> fizzie: ouch
21:48:08 <wob_jonas> right, I hear the UK has this strange system where they often haven't invented a simple water mixer that we have in almost every tap here, except for a few cold water only taps
21:48:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: those were illegal for a long time, IIRC there was some sort of issue with contamination of the mains
21:49:28 <ais523> there's such a thing as a "kitchen mixer tap" which mixes hot and cold water but only after it's already come out of the tap
21:49:33 <wob_jonas> even restaurant taps that are set to hot water only with no way for the user to adjust, to make people buy more drinks, are mix taps, only with a screw from the mix tap removed by the owner so that the users can't grip it
21:49:33 <ais523> by dropping them near each other
21:49:37 <ais523> in order to avoid that sort of problem
21:49:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: huh, how does that work?
21:50:03 <ais523> as in, why would hotter water make you buy more drinks?
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's strange. I've seen such two tap systems even in Hungary, but only like twenty years ago in old dorm buildings inside rooms or something, not in reasonable places
21:51:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: the guests use the warm water to wash your hand in the bathroom, but don't drink it because it's too warm for their tastes (when people drink water, they usually prefer cold or room temperature water)
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21:51:29 <wob_jonas> so they instead buy drinks from the restaurant or pub in glasses or bottles or whatever
21:51:32 <ais523> oh, I see, I didn't realise anyone would drink water from the bathroom taps
21:51:48 <ais523> in the UK, anywhere which sells alcohol has to give everyone (cold/mains) tap water for free on request
21:52:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, they have that strange thing in the UK too? I hear the US has an issue where people don't want to drink from taps, and have separate water fountains or something
21:52:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, in theory restaurants have to serve tap water in a glass
21:52:34 <ais523> it's just really inconvenient to drink from a tap directly
21:52:42 <ais523> and people aren't really supposed to bring their own glasses
21:52:43 <wob_jonas> but sometimes they don't do that, or interpret your order of water as non-tap water and charge from it, or something
21:52:54 <ais523> right, you have to be very clear to say "tap water"
21:53:15 <ais523> if you just say "water" a typical restaurant will serve you something much more expensive in the hope of making a profit
21:53:17 <wob_jonas> and even without that, once they have to order, they might order other drinks
21:53:48 <wob_jonas> also, this happens the most often in restaurants that already want to gain profit from tourists or clueless people
21:55:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: most people drink using their two hands, but they also wash their face at sinks with taps with their two hands, which is something I could never really figure out. I'm in the minority who drink by directly holding my mouth under a tap, and wash my face by holding my face under the tap, or sometimes drink using a soft drink bottle.
21:55:51 <ais523> that's a weird tap design, it's hard to fit your face under the tap with a typical sink
21:56:01 <wob_jonas> I am also willing to drink warmer water in those kinds of skiing restaurants than most other people, I only refuse to drink when the water is so hot it already hurts for washing your hands.
21:56:02 <ais523> in fact, some sinks I've had problems even just fitting my hands there :-(
21:56:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, some taps make it hard. that's what coke bottles are for.
21:57:29 <wob_jonas> ideally either modern thin mineral water bottles that you can fold if they don't fit under, or a half-liter mineral water bottle that fits slanted under most taps (in most places the faucet is also not fixed too strongly to the sink so I rotate it a bit even though I'm not supposed to).
22:00:50 <wob_jonas> Drinking from a bottle can be unhygienic, yet I still do it a lot.
22:01:01 <wob_jonas> I'm not supposed to, but it's simple.
22:03:44 <wob_jonas> Anyway, I don't understand how people even take showers without a mixing tap. Washing up is possible without, using the more water efficient technique of filling a sink with water, which people here always do when there's a lot to wash up at the same time.
22:04:16 <ais523> it's common to do that here too, except for rinsing
22:04:25 <ais523> you have a bowl of hot water for washing, then rinse under the tap once you're done
22:04:46 <wob_jonas> Sure, I've heard of all the inconvenient cleaning methods people used up to like twenty years ago, before basically every apartment started to have a bathroom with shower or bathtub as a standard component, but still.
22:05:46 <wob_jonas> Nobody but very poor people lack a shower of some form or bathtub these days.
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22:07:31 <wob_jonas> And all showers have a mixing tap, because the bathrooms already have to have hot water, and throwing in a mixing tap is simple enough on that, simpler than having a separate hot water and cold water tap.
22:09:31 <wob_jonas> (There's one difference. Showers in individual home bathrooms typically have a shower head on a flexible tube; communal showers usually have a shower head in a fixed high position on a rigid tube instead. This is because the flexible tube often gets leaky and has to be replaced once every few years, but is cheap to replace.)
22:11:25 <wob_jonas> My other grandmother, who died over twenty years ago, actually lived in a poor house without a shower or bathtub, so she had to wash her body from a bowl, but even there she had a mix tap with hot and cold water.
22:13:31 <wob_jonas> People don't use a mix tap for washing themselves only when either (a) they're in such poor housing conditions that not only they don't have a bathroom, but also no access to proper hot water, and have to boil water in a pot on a stove for washing themselves; or (b) it's a shower outdoors on a beach or similar with only cold water, used only in war
22:13:31 <wob_jonas> m temperatures.
22:15:41 <wob_jonas> The no mix tap thing seems a strange foreign practice to me, sort of like squat toilets.
22:17:07 <wob_jonas> I can admit that having taps with the controls placed in reverse can be a genuine cultural difference that's too stuck to reconcile after international travel got cheaper, sort of like driving on the left; and the same about upside down light switches, and ceiling light switches placed at waist height.
22:18:44 <wob_jonas> (Here most taps that have two separate dials for cold and hot water have the hot water dial on the left hand side, ones that have a single handle give hot water if you pull that to the left; you press pysical light switches on the top or pull them up to turn them on; and room light switches are at height.)
22:19:21 <wob_jonas> (These are arbitrary conventions, but they're useful at that if they're standard.)
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22:22:23 <shachaf> Do you use electric showers in the UK?
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22:24:30 <ais523> shachaf: both electric and mixer showers are common
22:25:33 <wob_jonas> Do people at the UK at least have a tall enough tap in either the kitchen or the bathroom that you can fit your head below them? I hate not tall enough taps. How the heck are you supposed to remove foreign objects from your eyes? Everyone knows you must do that with running water whenever possible.
22:25:42 <wob_jonas> I mean just a cold water tap.
22:25:47 <wob_jonas> You don't need a mixing tap for that.
22:25:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: normally you physically throw water into your eyes
22:26:10 <ais523> sometimes described as "splashing" it
22:26:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but that doesn't really work. that's a workaround for when you don't have running water because you're not in a building.
22:27:09 <shachaf> I've never seen an electric shower but I heard they were common in the UK.
22:27:18 <wob_jonas> strange
22:27:28 <wob_jonas> I mean, if they have a shower, they can use that instead
22:27:31 <wob_jonas> or a bathroom tap
22:27:39 <wob_jonas> not perfect, but works
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22:30:20 <shachaf> Wwhy is it not perfect?
22:30:32 <wob_jonas> Really I've heard of the no mix tap thing in UK from descriptions, but I mostly forgot about it until now. I should really keep that in mind when I decide whether to work abroad and where.
22:31:23 <ais523> wob_jonas: maybe about half the public toilets I use have mixer taps on the sinks, the other half use separate taps
22:31:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: shower works well, but some showerheads are ridiclous, they spew water everywhere in a large area rather than concentrating them in a medium sized beam, so you'd get everything wet. For washing your eyes, you want the water to hit mostly a small area at the bridge of your nose. Tap at bathtub can work but can be harder to reach from outsid
22:31:58 <wob_jonas> e the bathtub.
22:32:10 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Oh, I thought you meant electric showers.
22:32:42 <wob_jonas> shachaf: why does electric matter? cold water works for washing your eyes (warm water also works, mind yuo)
22:33:04 <ais523> shachaf: electric and mixer showers still have the showerhead (the bit that actually outputs the water) working the same way, the only difference is how the water is heated
22:33:08 <Taneb> Superheated water might have adverse side effects
22:33:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: I see. how about in private apartments?
22:33:21 <shachaf> I was only half-reading the conversation, I didn't see anything about showerheads.
22:33:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: they're separate in my house, I don't go to a lot of other peoples' bathrooms though
22:33:43 <wob_jonas> yeah...
22:33:43 <Taneb> wob_jonas, most toilets I use have mixer taps, most kitchens don't
22:34:19 <wob_jonas> I don't know what kind of bathrooms people have in private apartments in Sweden either. I've only been to like four apartments, but all four are ones where Hungarians live.
22:34:42 <wob_jonas> Taneb: thanks
22:34:43 <Taneb> I've never been to Sweden or to my knowlege in a Hungarian's apartment
22:38:44 <wob_jonas> Totally different topic. I was thinking of trying to watch some other cartoon TV series franchise (besides MLP:FiM which I've been following for three seasons now). Top contender is Steven Universe, followed by Ben 10. Do you have any recommendation for or against them?
22:38:51 <wob_jonas> This one is hard because you'd have to know my preferences.
22:45:04 <wob_jonas> I also watched much of Phineas and Ferb and enjoyed it, plus most of the original Powerpuff Girls series.
22:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're after kids'-tv-that-adults-like then adventure time seems to be widely loved
22:53:01 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: hmm
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23:01:23 <wob_jonas> yeah... this channel is half European, so I should ask at a time that's not a bank holiday, and earlier in the day
23:01:35 <wob_jonas> is it a bank holiday in the US by the way? let me look that up
23:02:14 <shachaf> I don't think there are bank holidays in the US.
23:02:33 <wob_jonas> yep, holiday in US and UK too (but not in Sweden or Norway)
23:02:45 <shachaf> whoa, today's a holiday in the US?
23:03:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: today as in --11-01. it's --11-02 now here
23:04:19 <shachaf> What holiday?
23:04:34 <wob_jonas> nope, sorry, not a public (bank) holiday in the US apparently
23:04:52 <shachaf> Anyway the US doesn't really have official holidays.
23:04:58 <wob_jonas> nor in the UK
23:05:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: how do people know when shops and offices are closed then?
23:05:45 <wob_jonas> such shops and offices that are normally closed on sundays that is
23:07:59 <wob_jonas> but it is a holiday in Hungary and some of the neighboring countries
23:08:44 <shachaf> There are conventions.
23:09:01 <shachaf> The federal government has a holiday schedule and I guess most people use those.
23:09:20 <shachaf> And maybe add some others or remove some.
23:09:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: doesn't that make them public holidays?
23:13:26 <shachaf> Does it?
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23:13:56 <wob_jonas> dunno
23:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> when does us daylight savings time end btw
23:15:00 <shachaf> This Sunday.
23:15:37 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: 2017-11-05 in most places
23:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i see
23:15:48 <wob_jonas> a few don't use daylight saving time adjustments
23:16:38 <shachaf> That's true.
23:16:43 <shachaf> I wish everyone got rid of DST.
23:16:48 <wob_jonas> and apparently they don't adjust their tz offset at the same time, but at the same local time around the country. weird.
23:16:55 <shachaf> Maybe I should move to Arizona.
23:17:50 <wob_jonas> in the half of Europe that does do DST adjustments, they do it at the same time
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23:19:17 <wob_jonas> always at 01:00 UTC, regardless of whether their winter timezone offset is +0 or +1 or +2
23:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> the codebase i'm working on right now mixes local and utc times in ways i don't really understand
23:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it's less than ideal
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23:22:17 <wob_jonas> I was thinking at some point on what the best API would be for a datetime module that covers timezones and the gregorian calendar and all sorts of datetime calculations. Obviously this is subjective. I have a particular idea that I might try to implement as a wrapper some day. I quite like the perl Date::Manip module, but I'm thinking of an API mor
23:22:17 <wob_jonas> e suitable for a statically typed language,
23:22:40 <wob_jonas> and without the part where Date::Manip refuses to handle sub-second precision.
23:23:40 <wob_jonas> Maybe at first I should sketch the API as a patch to Date::Manip that adds more methods and depreciates a few existing ones in favor of the newer ones.
23:23:56 <wob_jonas> Because that interface is nice, but not perfect.
23:24:23 <wob_jonas> Nah, that probably wouldn't work. I'd have to change it to almost unrecognizable.
23:25:21 <wob_jonas> Dunno.
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23:25:34 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: go on
23:25:59 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: is that code base written in Excel? Excel doesn't seem to understand about time zones.
23:26:03 <Phantom_Hoover> no it's in kdb
23:26:16 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you use kdb?
23:26:18 <shachaf> For what?
23:26:20 <wob_jonas> At least in older versions. They may have added stuff since.
23:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> which has different shortcuts for utc timestamp vs global timestamp
23:26:33 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, market databases, what else :p
23:26:42 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, that surprised me too
23:26:54 <shachaf> Is this for a job?
23:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
23:27:09 <shachaf> What's the job?
23:27:10 <wob_jonas> apparently people use some modern APLs in finance, including kdb and dyalog.
23:27:41 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, uh... kdb developer, basically
23:27:46 <wob_jonas> but it surprised me because I don't remember seeing Phantom_Hoover on the freenode #jsoftware channel where we talk about various APLs, not just the original topic J
23:27:58 <shachaf> I mean, what are you and/or your employer accomplishing?
23:28:50 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: you are hereby invited to #jsoftware, where you can find a few other people who use APLs for work
23:28:58 <wob_jonas> I emphatically don't do that, and don't want to do that either
23:29:22 <FireFly> Phantom_Hoover: hm, do you work for Kx or for some other company?
23:29:28 <FireFly> out of curiosity
23:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i work for one of the irish kdb consultancies
23:29:43 <FireFly> ah
23:29:58 <FireFly> I was chatting with a guy from Kx at a meetup here a few months ago
23:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> which apparently accounts for an awful lot of kdb developers, half my team is irish
23:31:01 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, the details are probably boring and i'm not sure they aren't sensitive, basically we pull price data from a few sources, clean it up and provide it to other teams downstream
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23:32:46 <shachaf> Ah.
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23:36:27 <fizzie> The thing about US and UK DST switchover differences is, about half of our reoccurring meetings shift by an hour for that one week, but it's completely arbitrary, since it depends on the time zone of whoever happens to be the nominal organizer of the meeting.
23:36:59 <wob_jonas> fizzie: ouch
23:37:11 <FireFly> I visited freenode live over the weekend, which was a pain because it meant three time shifts during one weekend (two for the flights back and forth, one for the DST change)
23:37:14 <wob_jonas> fizzie: do you also sometimes get meetings at the wrong date because you confuse date formats?
23:37:25 <FireFly> at least Sweden and UK both do the DST change simultaneously, so there's that
23:38:12 <wob_jonas> FireFly: exactly, that's what I said. the half of europe that does any DST changes at all change at the same time. in the US, the part that uses DST changes change multiple hours apart.
23:38:29 <FireFly> ah, nod
23:39:01 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I don't think that happens too much (Google Calendar is reasonably good about making dates non-ambiguous), although sometimes dates in other contexts (like emails or bugs) end up being confusing.
23:40:11 <shachaf> FireFly: Oh, you're Freenode staff, aren't you.
23:40:30 <fizzie> (The recurring time is not strictly speaking tied to the time zone of the nominal organizer -- it's a property of the event, but that's where the default comes from.)
23:40:31 <FireFly> yeaah
23:40:33 <FireFly> yeah*
23:40:42 <FireFly> so I helped organise the event too :P
23:41:11 <FireFly> shachaf: also someone hirefly'd a few months ago btw
23:41:40 <FireFly> (well. like 1½)
23:41:58 <shachaf> Don't I HireFly all the time?
23:41:59 <fizzie> Heh. If you set different time zones for the start and end times (which is apparently supported), the 'repeat' option is disabled: "A repeated event cannot start and end in different time zones".
23:42:02 <shachaf> `hi FireFly
23:42:02 <HackEgo> Hi FireFly. HireFly.
23:42:33 <FireFly> I meant in the 'hire' sense more than the 'hi' sense
23:45:10 <wob_jonas> lol
23:45:31 <shachaf> What sort of HireFly?
23:46:50 <fizzie> There's apparently some proposal that UK should adopt BST all year round, and "double summertime" when it's usually DST (so effectively just switch to CET), and also there was a newspaper article just the other day where a sleep researcher recommended Finland to switch to CET too.
23:46:55 <fizzie> I think they should adopt both, since then there'd be no UK/Finland timezone difference to think about.
23:47:18 <Phantom_Hoover> the uk went to BST year-round in like the 80s i think
23:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> only for a trial period and it got shouted down by the scots b/c they didn't like how dark it got on winter mornings
23:48:22 <fizzie> So I've heard. And there was the double summer time ("BDST") during the second war.
23:49:13 <FireFly> shachaf: webdev and mobile app dev, JS stuffs mainly
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00:20:00 <boily> @metar CYUL
00:20:00 <lambdabot> CYUL 020000Z 18006KT 15SM -RA OVC035 07/03 A3027 RMK SC8 SLP254
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04:21:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Loudcolour * New user account
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04:26:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MMP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53316 * Challenger5 * (+2097) Created page with "This looks like a neat language! I wanted to let you know that [https://gist.github.com/ScratchMan544/70e3dfbe091c5f3e46d47a99a8e4e7e6 I've written an implementation]. There a..."
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11:01:03 <boily> fungot: how many nostrils do you have?
11:01:03 <fungot> boily: one of the reported matter the purchaser. not only lavished on executives."
11:01:24 <boily> Executive Nostrils™ with Leather Upholstering.
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15:31:43 <oerjan> @messages-loud
15:31:43 <lambdabot> int-e said 3d 18h 44m 19s ago: Re: Who cares about ancient cases anyway? / To whom it may concern...
15:32:10 <oerjan> `revert
15:32:12 <HackEgo> Done.
15:32:17 <oerjan> `? fun fact
15:32:18 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
15:32:24 * oerjan grmbles
15:33:27 <oerjan> `cat bin/whoops
15:33:28 <HackEgo> OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "«${NEW}» already exists"; exit 1; fi; mv "$OLD" "$NEW" && echo "«${OLD}» -> «${NEW}»"
15:33:39 <oerjan> good, good
15:34:01 <oerjan> `forget fun fact
15:34:03 <HackEgo> Forget what?
15:34:08 <oerjan> `? fun fact
15:34:10 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
15:35:48 <oerjan> `? test
15:35:49 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
15:35:53 <oerjan> `? testing
15:35:55 <HackEgo> testing? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:36:19 <oerjan> `le/rn testing // what happened with that
15:36:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'testing ': what happened with that
15:36:25 <oerjan> oh
15:36:37 <oerjan> (just saw numbers in the logs)
15:36:42 <oerjan> `revert
15:36:44 <HackEgo> Done.
15:39:37 <shiro`> if I haven't programmed with an esolang before what should I try?
15:41:48 <alercah> why do you want to program with one?
15:42:10 <shiro`> for fun
15:42:13 <shiro`> also I want to make one
15:42:39 <alercah> what kind of fun? the challenge of doing something with limited tools? the fun of exploring something weird?
15:42:47 <shiro`> yes
15:43:09 <alercah> funge is a lot of fun
15:45:56 <oerjan> also funge98 is unusually usable, right fungot
15:45:56 <fungot> oerjan: the short form agreement.??
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16:02:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53317&oldid=52671 * Finianb1 * (+84) /* Instructions */
16:07:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53318&oldid=53177 * Finianb1 * (+27) /* Befunge-93 and Befunge-98 */
16:21:47 <b_jonas> if you actually want to make useful programs, the best bet might be certain non-esolangs with strange features, like haskell or some APL
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17:21:14 <int-e> Hmm, maybe we should conduct a poll whether Countercall is TC.
17:21:29 <alercah> proof by poll, that's a new one
17:22:00 <b_jonas> int-e: what? that's not one of those languages whose meaning keeps changing according to popular vote or something, right?
17:22:06 <int-e> (ais523 wrote on the page that he believes that it is TC... I'm leaning towards no)
17:22:40 <alercah> int-e: that's my intuition as well
17:23:16 <alercah> that said
17:23:17 <int-e> b_jonas: I'd prefer a proof, but the language is just awful enough to make that hard (for me, at least).
17:23:23 <alercah> it would not be the first time I've been proven wrong
17:23:43 <int-e> So it becomes a perfect target for conjectures :P
17:25:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53319&oldid=52409 * B jonas * (+46)
17:26:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Carlos * New user account
17:38:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lost]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53320 * Wheatwizard * (+2780) Made page
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20:19:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53321&oldid=46069 * Ais523 * (+146) /* Computational class */ TC proof sketch
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21:13:31 <shachaf> `? password
21:13:33 <HackEgo> The password of the month is revolutionary
21:13:46 <APic> 🙌
21:50:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53322 * B jonas * (+3203) Created page with "''Geo'' is a simple interpreted toy programming language. I, [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]] created it in 2006 for a programming course that required implementing a parser using ya..."
21:51:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53323&oldid=53322 * B jonas * (+96)
21:52:03 <Phantom_Hoover> does geo have goenerics
21:53:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53324&oldid=53323 * B jonas * (+2)
21:54:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, gno
21:54:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53325&oldid=53277 * B jonas * (+10)
21:55:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53326&oldid=53324 * B jonas * (+25)
21:56:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53327&oldid=53309 * B jonas * (+25)
21:56:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53328&oldid=53326 * B jonas * (+40)
22:01:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53329&oldid=53328 * B jonas * (+413)
22:04:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53330&oldid=53329 * B jonas * (+38)
22:15:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53331 * B jonas * (+1319) Created page with "'''Scan''' is a toy programming language. I, [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]] created it in 2003. I published it to the world around 2006. Scan is dynamically typed, values can be..."
22:15:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53332&oldid=53325 * B jonas * (+11)
22:17:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53333&oldid=53319 * B jonas * (+114)
22:17:43 <Phantom_Hoover> lol gno goenerics
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22:18:54 <wob_jonas> what?
22:18:56 <wob_jonas> `? gno
22:18:57 <HackEgo> gno? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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22:48:07 <wob_jonas> Countercall indeed sounds like it's not obvious whether it's turing complete or not
22:48:16 <wob_jonas> its feature set is so awkward
22:50:05 <ais523> yes
22:50:32 <ais523> I'm currently leaning towards yes but wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong
22:51:50 <ais523> the main problem is that it only has two places to store data and they're both critically important for other things, /and/ it's easy to prove that you need to shift data back and forth between the two of them for TCness
22:51:52 <wob_jonas> I suspect it's not turing complete, but I don't really know
22:52:49 <wob_jonas> I'm fine with only two places to keep data and shifting data back and forth, that's how two stack automata work, but this one is just so awkward
22:53:24 <ais523> right, it'd be easy if the data were just data, rather than being inherent to the language's control flow at the same time
22:54:05 <wob_jonas> and there's just too few ways to control flow
22:54:21 <wob_jonas> if there were multiple ways to call a function which use the counter differently, it would be easy
22:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53334&oldid=53331 * B jonas * (+3)
22:59:08 <wob_jonas> (I just realized that scan is not turing-complete, because it only has the one stack that stores returns and localized values of variables, and all values are fixed point integers or functions that don't close over anything at runtime.)
22:59:14 <wob_jonas> s/fixed point/machine/
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23:11:40 <ais523> is untyped lambda calculus TC without closures? admittedly, I'm not 100% sure what that would mean
23:12:02 <ais523> certainly, currying wouldn't work, which get rid of most of the usual constructions
23:14:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: um... how would that work?
23:14:10 <wob_jonas> lambda calculus without closures?
23:14:17 <ais523> I don't think it does
23:14:52 <ais523> come to think of it, Splinter is pretty close to this
23:14:58 <ais523> and it's a PDA
23:15:01 <wob_jonas> do you mean that functions only store a reference to the stack, and you can call them only as long as the innermost block of which it refers a variable hasn't exited yet?
23:15:17 <ais523> I mean that a function value isn't stateful
23:15:29 <ais523> it's just a reference to a block of code, like in C
23:15:42 <wob_jonas> but you also don't have algebraic types?
23:15:48 <wob_jonas> because that sounds like a pushdown automaton
23:15:54 <wob_jonas> and so isn't turing complete
23:16:01 <wob_jonas> you don't have a heap
23:16:35 <ais523> I agree, I think it's a PDA
23:24:39 <wob_jonas> scan, of which I just wrote a stub entry, is actually sort of like that. a function value only holds a pointer to a node in the parse tree. no closing over values.
23:26:25 <wob_jonas> I think the rules for variables is this: variables with the same name in different compile-time scopes are distinguished. local variables are dynamically localized in the correct scope, but closures don't record any value or reference to them. variable access just takes the innermost localized value that corresponds to the same variable in the sour
23:26:25 <wob_jonas> ce code.
23:26:37 <wob_jonas> but I'm not quite sure it works that way.
23:29:38 <wob_jonas> The simplest way to have such a language is to only have global variables instead.
23:41:56 <quintopia> helloily
23:44:20 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
23:44:30 <wob_jonas> but I think if you only have globals, it might not even have enough power for a push-down automaton. I'm not sure.
23:44:48 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if there's even a difference if you can't get input.
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06:53:16 <J_Arcane> Tampio is a lazy purely functional programming language that looks like a natural language – Finnish. https://github.com/fergusq/tampio
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08:42:30 <shachaf> Taneb++
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15:18:47 <b_jonas> "Welcome to the future, time traveler." http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/time-machine
15:19:32 <b_jonas> Is that what you'd say to someone who arrives here if Da Vinci arrived here with his time machine?
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15:54:45 <quintopia> no
15:55:04 <quintopia> not if you recognize him as leonardo
15:55:56 <quintopia> instead you say "yo what's up leo! i see you managed to build a time machine! we never knew! are you sure you want all the spoilers on technology you're about to get?"
16:07:40 <b_jonas> quintopia: we do know he's built a time machine.
16:11:40 <b_jonas> quintopia: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1604.html
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16:36:51 <int-e> b_jonas: just to be logical, that doesn't imply he built a time machine
16:38:52 <int-e> (In fact the easiest way to get a time machine is probably to steal one from another time traveler.)
16:44:23 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, and I actually don't think he's a time traveler at all. I personally think he's an overblown artist who didn't really know anything about science or technology, just drawn a few sci-fi sketches that moved modern people's minds. Like both Bacons.
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17:11:34 <shachaf> `olist 1104
17:11:35 <HackEgo> olist 1104: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:12:34 <int-e> SSSS is a bit confusing atm.
17:12:36 <int-e> `? ssss
17:12:38 <HackEgo> SSSS refers to the Stand Still, Stay Silent webcomic.
17:19:18 <b_jonas> oh
17:19:46 <shachaf> @nixon
17:19:46 <lambdabot> It is necessary for me to establish a winner image. Therefore, I have to beat somebody.
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18:00:35 <int-e> . o O ( "... and currently, that's my wife."
18:00:39 <int-e> )
18:01:04 <shachaf> @nixon
18:01:04 <lambdabot> Don't try to take on a new personality; it doesn't work.
18:01:07 <shachaf> @nixon
18:01:07 <lambdabot> I reject the cynical view that politics is a dirty business.
18:01:46 <int-e> What a contrast to Trump, who wholeheartedly embraces it.
18:02:15 <shachaf> @nixon
18:02:15 <lambdabot> This is a great day for France!
18:02:17 <shachaf> @nixon
18:02:17 <lambdabot> I can take it. The tougher it gets, the cooler I get.
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18:20:18 <int-e> hmm earthquakes are irritating.
18:21:51 <int-e> ( https://www.zamg.ac.at/cms/de/geophysik/erdbeben/aktuelle-erdbeben/karten-und-listen/bebendetails/austria/quakes/2017307_evid52784989 )
18:21:51 <idris-bot> (input):1:9: error: unexpected
18:21:51 <idris-bot> Operator without known fixity:
18:21:51 <idris-bot> ://, expected: space
18:21:51 <idris-bot> https://www.zamg.ac.at/cms/de/geophysik/erdbeben/aktuelle-erdbeben/karten-und->
18:21:51 <idris-bot> ^
18:22:20 <int-e> idris-bot: you know I put those spaces there for better cut&paste-ability... *sigh*
18:23:15 <shachaf> `? weather
18:23:16 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
18:23:33 <shachaf> Is lambdabot ignoring HackEgo again?
18:23:49 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
18:23:49 <lambdabot> KOAK 031753Z 14013KT 10SM OVC085 16/12 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP174 60000 T01560117 10156 20128 51008
18:23:58 <b_jonas> fungot, is lambdabot ignoring HackEgo again_
18:23:58 <fungot> b_jonas: deal and should we get to the parent of the resolutions of sole on 04/ 23/ 2000) the big of an this interview.?
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18:24:28 <int-e> shachaf: that is intentional
18:24:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: hasnát lambdabot always ignored it because HackEgo puts some mandatory prefix whitespace character to its replies?
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18:24:54 <shachaf> No, only for lines that start with some characters.
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18:25:03 <b_jonas> hmm
18:25:03 <shachaf> That's why `? weather starts with "lambdabot: ".
18:25:25 <b_jonas> but doesn't lambdabot only care when the line starts with an at sign?
18:25:43 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @eval [0..]
18:25:57 <shachaf> @help eval
18:25:57 <lambdabot> eval. Do nothing (perversely)
18:25:57 <int-e> @help eval
18:25:57 <lambdabot> eval. Do nothing (perversely)
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18:26:12 <int-e> b_jonas: itym @run
18:26:25 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run symbol "hello, world"
18:26:28 <lambdabot> error:
18:26:28 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: symbol :: [Char] -> t
18:26:28 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘isSymbol’ (imported from Data.Char)
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18:26:36 <shachaf> @echo off
18:26:39 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run var "hello, world"
18:26:41 <lambdabot> hello, world
18:26:50 <b_jonas> apparently it does listen with that prefix
18:27:07 <b_jonas> but still, wouldn't HackEgo prefix that so it doesn't look like a nick?
18:27:09 <b_jonas> or something
18:27:26 <shachaf> No.
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23:13:55 <boily> fungot: nostril, but another one.
23:13:55 <fungot> boily: with that in mind that we received the help it to set the peak to be on the same,
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23:46:46 <zzo38> Have you see if my "rgbff" program is now working OK or if there is a bit problem?
23:47:10 <shachaf> I have not see.
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00:44:24 <moonythedwarf> where's fungot's SRC again?
00:44:24 <fungot> moonythedwarf: have we been able to be all the more you that we confusing scheduling services with a would deliver the " one of the office on the days that
00:44:34 <moonythedwarf> nvm
00:53:41 <quintopia> ^source
00:53:41 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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01:01:16 <fizzie> ^style
01:01:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:01:24 <fizzie> I think that's about enough of that.
01:01:26 <fizzie> ^style nethack
01:01:26 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
01:01:43 <fizzie> fungot: So what should I do with that amulet again?
01:01:43 <fungot> fizzie: drop your vanity and get away with it if it would cleave it in the halls of valhalla in asgard, the mistress of the ring, by terry pratchett)
01:02:00 <fizzie> I guess "drop your vanity and get away with it" is good advice.
01:03:07 <fizzie> fungot: Is it a good idea to zap myself with a random wand?
01:03:07 <fungot> fizzie: if your ghost kills a player, it says, is found by a touchstone, men by gold." ( the two towers, by william shakespeare)
01:03:40 <fizzie> Ah, yes, one of the Bard's lesser-known works.
01:06:59 <quintopia> because tolkien found it and claimed it as his own
01:07:30 <quintopia> also "drop your vanity and get away with it" sounds like a great way to booby trap your house when the police are trying to get in
01:08:01 <quintopia> just hang the vanity by a rope above a trap door over the front doormat
01:08:08 <quintopia> drop it when they come to break down the door
01:08:16 <quintopia> then get away
01:16:51 <moonythedwarf> I've been enjoying soup searching http://catagolue.appspot.com/census/b2ce4-cint67e8s14567/C1
01:18:37 <zzo38> I heard someone suggested adding hazmat signs to make it more difficult for the police to get in
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01:56:00 <shachaf> `? password
01:56:01 <HackEgo> The password of the month is revolutionary
01:56:52 <shachaf> `learn The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
01:56:55 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
01:57:43 <shachaf> `mkx bin/d1wg//dowg "$@" | head -n1
01:57:45 <HackEgo> bin/d1wg
01:57:52 <shachaf> `d1wg password
01:58:02 <HackEgo> 11236:2017-11-04 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
01:58:04 <shachaf> Hmm, that could be confused with `1
01:58:09 <shachaf> Oh well, these things are meant to be confusing.
02:00:43 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C3%A0_di_Bruno%27s_formula is pg
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10:45:12 <int-e> `doag quotes
10:45:16 <HackEgo> 11200:2017-09-26 <int-̈e> ` sed -i \'$s=sha[c]haf=shach\x0faf=\' quotes > /dev/null \ 11199:2017-09-26 <shachäf> revert \ 11198:2017-09-26 <int-̈e> ` sed -i \'$s=shachaf=sha\x0fchaf=\' quotes \ 11197:2017-09-26 <int-̈e> addquote <fungot> shachaf: i\'ve a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my fina
10:46:06 <int-e> sad.
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10:57:08 <shachaf> Sad?
11:03:37 <int-e> no new quotes makes me sad
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12:36:17 <Alan_> Hi!
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12:38:02 <Guest46499> hi!
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14:24:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countup]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53335 * Dan zh * (+483) Created page.
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14:48:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IJL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53336 * Dan zh * (+406) Created page with "IJL is a Interesting Not Not Joke Language. An example program: print() Outputs: ERROR!! CODE CORRECT! This: SUM(1+1) Outputs: 600# This: SUM(99+990000000) Outp..."
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16:34:15 <garit2> What mathematical operation is a mirror reflection of a multiplication in this sense: multiplication at low bits have 'influence' of just 2 bits, and multiplication result at high bits have 'influence' of all bits in input words. Now: what operation makes answer where low bits have 'influence' of all bits, and high bits have influence of only 2 bits?
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23:15:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53337&oldid=31020 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1013)
23:16:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53338&oldid=53337 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
23:16:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53339&oldid=53338 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
23:18:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53340&oldid=53339 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
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01:22:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53341&oldid=53340 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+472)
01:26:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53342&oldid=53341 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+0) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:29:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53343&oldid=53342 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+134) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:29:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53344&oldid=53343 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-134) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:32:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53345&oldid=53344 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+123) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:32:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53346&oldid=53345 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-41) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:33:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53347&oldid=53346 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-3) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:35:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53348&oldid=53347 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+39) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:35:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53349&oldid=53348 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+3) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:38:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53350&oldid=53349 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+40) /* Converting from BF */
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02:05:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53351&oldid=53350 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-212) /* Converting from BF */
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04:09:20 <zzo38> ZZT is using RLE compression, but it isn't boustrophedon RLE. See picture: http://zzo38computer.org/img_1C/townzzt.png If boustrophedon is in use, then the run lengths for the yellow part near the armory can be grouped together, and the run lengths for the blue parts near the bank can be grouped together.
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08:04:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Dan zh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53352 * Dan zh * (+63) Created page with "Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here be Dragons. Talk here"
08:06:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dan zh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53353&oldid=53143 * Dan zh * (+102)
08:56:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Haddock]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53354 * Dan zh * (+521) Created page.
09:00:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53355&oldid=53354 * Dan zh * (-4)
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09:05:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53356&oldid=53355 * Dan zh * (+883)
09:30:45 <zzo38> GURPS has a broadsword that weighs 3 lb, but there is no longsword listed. I looked it up in Wikipedia; I can't tell what it should be, because it seem that the terms "broadsword" and "longsword" are not refering to specific types of sword (such as the "arming sword", which is sometimes called a "broadsword").
09:37:00 <zzo38> Do you know about swords?
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18:29:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dan zh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53357&oldid=53353 * Dan zh * (+91)
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18:56:58 <__20h__> Good evening.
18:57:04 <erkin> Evening good.
18:57:09 <__20h__> Will an article about javascript be accepted in the wiki?
18:57:26 <__20h__> »This wiki is dedicated to the fostering and documentation of programming languages designed to be unique, difficult to program in, or just plain weird.« This fits javascript pretty well.
19:01:50 <zzo38> I don't expect so? But, if you have something to write, then, to write it, I suppose.
19:05:55 <garit> What language has a good ability to generate the code in the runtime, is system-level(gpu access, probably realtime too), and is platform independent(or minimum tweaks needed)?
19:08:16 <zzo38> If it does that, I don't expect to be platform independent, I suppose.
19:09:56 <garit> Yeah, i thought its an impossible combination =(
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20:47:28 <zzo38> I wrote a program to read the Macrocell format used in Golly.
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21:14:36 <quintopia> in what language?
21:17:09 <zzo38> In C
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22:57:36 <int-e> does http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/magnet.html work for anybody else?
23:01:22 <garit2> int-e: doesnt work on adroid
23:03:39 <int-e> hmm
23:09:58 <fizzie> I'm not 100% sure what it *should* look like.
23:10:15 <fizzie> But it does work for me for some values of "work".
23:10:38 <garit2> For me its an empty white rectangle
23:12:07 <int-e> oh well, I'll play with it some more the upcoming week
23:12:08 <fizzie> For me there's a thing that looks a little like a magnetic field plot, which rotates around the X axis, and outside the initial screen size there's vaguely Sierpinski triangle -ish stuff.
23:12:22 <fizzie> Blue-and-white on black.
23:12:26 <int-e> fizzie: yes that's what it's supposed to do
23:13:17 <fizzie> Then it works for me on Chromium (61.0.3163.100) and Firefox (52.4.0) both.
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23:15:03 <int-e> (back in 2008 the sierpinsky stuff was a bit of an accident... I wanted a darker border, then black, but ran out of space in the intro)
23:15:52 <int-e> in any case, good night
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01:59:16 <zzo38> Now I also wrote the program to write Macrocell format, too.
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02:13:53 <hppavilion[0]> Is there a location where I can find massive historical records of METAR reports for a given region?
02:15:15 <quintopia> depends on the region i guess
02:15:43 <hppavilion[0]> quintopia: Specifically trying to find the dates of first snow for Anchorage, Alaska
02:15:46 <quintopia> weather underground and noaa keep historical weather data
02:16:00 <hppavilion[0]> Preferably with data about snowfalls that don't stick- so when it snows, then it all melts, then it snows again
02:16:35 <quintopia> try the wunderground database?
02:19:12 <ais523> I love the way that everyone just kind-of assumes that this channel would be a good place to find people who know the answer to questions like that
02:19:36 <ais523> it's offtopic, but kind-of "in the sphere of the channel" enough to make it worth a try, I guess?
02:21:15 <hppavilion[0]> ais523: Yeah.
02:21:21 <hppavilion[0]> ais523: In this case, it's because of a girl
02:21:37 <hppavilion[0]> [that I'm asking the question, not that I'm asking here in particular]
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02:21:44 <rdococ> Well... hi.
02:21:49 <ais523> hi rdococ
02:22:12 <hppavilion[0]> hi rdococ. I'm trying to determine the date of first snow each year in Anchorage
02:22:21 <ais523> hppavilion[0]: OK, so now you have to design an esolang where the source code is expressed in terms of weather, and you enter it by, hmm, physically moving a mobile phone with sensors into a place with appropriate weather
02:22:24 <rdococ> If I came here a few years ago (or more) (it's foggy to me), then I'd like to apologize for what was probably by behavior back then.
02:22:34 <rdococ> s/by/my
02:22:50 <hppavilion[0]> ais523: How about by METAR?
02:23:18 <ais523> rdococ: I recognise your username
02:23:21 <ais523> but can't remember much about you
02:23:27 <hppavilion[0]> rdococ: You were one of the first people I ran into when I joined this channel and I don't recall you being unpleasant
02:23:55 <hppavilion[0]> wunderground seems wonderful. You get 500 API calls per day (throttled to 10/minute) for free.
02:24:17 <ais523> in fact I was gone from here for quite a while and don't visit here that often nowadays, so I wasn't really aware that you'd been missing
02:24:17 <hppavilion[0]> Though it doesn't give you historical data
02:24:27 <rdococ> Yea, I guess. But I do know that at least one person here doesn't particularly like me for things that, most likely, happened in the past.
02:24:41 <rdococ> ais523: I've been here before, as in last year, but I'm talking about 4-5 years ago.
02:25:09 <ais523> oh, hmm
02:25:43 <ais523> the first I have from you in my logs is 2015
02:25:54 <rdococ> Huh.
02:26:03 <ais523> <rdococ> hi guys <rdococ> uh... I have an article about an esolang -- it explains everything while being a really short stub... what should I do?
02:26:08 <hppavilion[0]> At $600/month (for the absolute maximum plan), you get 100 000 calls per day, 1000 per minute, and you have access to:
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02:26:37 <ais523> that doesn't sound like you were familiar with the channel already
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02:26:58 <rdococ> My memory is foggy, though. I can't really remember.
02:27:08 <ais523> (among other things, you apparently /expected/ it to be ontopic, rather than being jaded enough to really /hope/ it would be ontopic this time)
02:27:26 <rdococ> heh
02:27:30 <hppavilion[0]> Geolookup, Autocomplete, Current conditions, 3-day forecast summary, Astronomy, Almanac for today, 10 day forecast summary, Hourly 1-day forecast, Satellite thumbnail, Dynamic Radar image, Severe alerts, Tides and Currents, Tides and Currents Raw, Severe alerts again somehow, Hourly 10-day forecast, Yesterday's weather summary, Travel Planner, Webcams Thumbnails, Dynamic animated Radar image, Dynamic animated Satellite image, and Current
02:27:30 <hppavilion[0]> Tropical Storms
02:28:14 <hppavilion[0]> But you can also get all of that for free with the aforementioned 500/day, 10/min throttle as a developer
02:28:22 <hppavilion[0]> [this user does not contain paid content]
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11:39:39 <boily> `5 w
11:39:51 <HackEgo> 1/2:codo//The codo button is the dodo's undo button. \ arabic//.scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA \ fizzbuzz//Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords. \ finity//Enjoy being locked in your matrix of finity. \
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11:56:35 <boily> `n
11:56:36 <HackEgo> 2/2: atm//An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info.
12:13:52 <int-e> yay for data processing
12:14:06 <APic> Data ♥
12:19:23 <int-e> . o O ( s/steal/duplicate/ )
12:22:53 <boily> `slwd atm//s/steal/duplicate/
12:22:55 <HackEgo> atm//An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will duplicate your relevant info.
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15:50:36 <Lymia> !zjoust Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ
15:50:36 <zemhill> Lymia: Program name (Ⱥ) is restricted to characters in [a-zA-Z0-9_-], sorry.
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18:48:32 <int-e> `? count
18:48:34 <HackEgo> count? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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18:59:59 <int-e> garit: apparently webgl2 is too new; https://caniuse.com/webgl2 says that it doesn't work in the standard android browser
19:02:27 <int-e> (but plain webgl should actually suffice for what I'm doing)
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19:03:28 <garit> Im using yandex browser 17.9
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19:12:00 <int-e> heh, or not. '^' : bit-wise operator supported in GLSL ES 3.00 and above only.
19:13:39 <int-e> (webgl only supports GLSL ES 1.00)
19:14:12 <zzo38> A web browser ought to include support of regular expression search of text in the current document.
19:14:17 <int-e> where webgl = webgl 1.0
19:15:09 * int-e should add some kind of error indication though :P
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19:48:29 <rdococ> Concept: Language where scopes are first-class objects. Variable access and variable assignment uses an optional scope variable - if s is a scope, then you could do "s v = 3" to set v to 3 in that scope. The global scope, simply named 'global', contains every other scope, and is parented to itself. 'local' is a global reference (in the 'global' scope) to the current scope, and 'code' would be a global reference to an AST representation of the code
19:48:29 <rdococ> which is currently being executed.
19:49:30 <rdococ> Both 'local' and 'code' are in the 'global' scope - therefore, if you change the current scope to a scope which is not in the 'global' scope, you would not be able to access 'local' or 'code' by normal means (without having a reference to the 'global' scope in the scope you're in now).
19:51:57 <rdococ> Functions would also have access to an explicit continuation, and would have to call it to return. In effect, when you create a function, you're creating a custom continuation which gets the continuation of the invoker.
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19:58:58 <rdococ> In other words, *every* call is a call/cc.
19:59:31 <rdococ> Or, rather, a jump/cc. Rather than monologuing in this chat, I'm going to move the stuff in my Notepad++ document for it to a gist.
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21:08:09 <zzo38> The simplest RLE is with only homogeneous runs. Some (such as PackBits) support both homogeneous and heterogeneous runs. But I thought also a third kind of run could be done, which is copy above.
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21:55:52 <zzo38> Now I made program to encode and decode Dr.Halo .CUT files (ImageMagick can only decode). Some of these pictures http://cd.textfiles.com/fantaziasampler/CLIPART/CUT/ will even compress slightly better with my software (only by a few bytes though; often the file size is the same as the original though).
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22:04:02 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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22:43:23 <quintopia> ive never heard of that format so i have no opinion
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23:04:20 <quintopia> helloily
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23:27:57 <rdococ> Excuse me, I am off to repair my ears.
23:34:26 <quintopia> whats wrong boily?
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23:39:59 <boily> I didn't porthello at all during the weekend!
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17:24:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53358&oldid=53317 * Finianb1 * (+0) /* Instructions */
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18:56:23 <int-e> `wisdom
18:56:37 <HackEgo> con//Cons are small mammals which, shortly after birth, eat two other mammals. They then live on sunlight and grass, until they are finally removed from existence.
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19:47:12 <rdococ> Can a con eat other cons, int-e?
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20:21:05 <wob_jonas> I have to be careful with the vicious clothing cycle. Basically, some clothes get more comfortable the more I wear them, because washing with a rinse agent makes the cotton softer. But when I choose what clothes to wear, I often choose the more comfortable ones. So there's a positive feedback loop for wearing older clothes, which eventually get rui
20:21:05 <wob_jonas> ned, without breaking in the newer clothes.
20:26:12 <doesthiswork> do what hermit crabs do. Steal broken in clothes from someone slightly weaker than you
20:28:57 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: stealing clothes is not socially acceptible. the usual method is to buy clothes from people slightly *richer* from you, usually people notionally in the UK who just sell their warm winter clothes in the spring and sell their summer clothes in the autumn.
20:30:26 <wob_jonas> "Notially in the UK" means that every used clothes store that isn't selling clothes collected as charity is labeling them as "British used clothes" for the quality associated with that, just like how chocolate is labeled as "Belgian" or "Swiss" regardless of where it's made.
20:37:14 <doesthiswork> The british are known for the quality of their used clothes?
20:38:22 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: they do know, since all non-charity-based used clothes stores started to label their clothes as UK
20:38:48 <wob_jonas> nobody knows where the used clothes really come from, or where Belgian and Swiss chocolate really comes from, but now they're stuck with that label
20:40:58 <wob_jonas> The charity shops have it easier, because all the big charities already use the names of big reputable organizations, and are now reputable as charities themselves too, namely the Red Cross charity, the Baptist charity org, the Maltese (as in Holy Order of Malta) charity org, and the Ecumenical charity org.
20:42:51 <doesthiswork> I don't see why reputation plays a large part in the used clothes market, because unlike chocolate you get to try it before you buy it.
20:44:38 <int-e> let's combine the two ideas and open a used chocolate market
20:45:24 <doesthiswork> sounds great. Here in america we have rainbow foods which is a used food store
20:45:30 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: well sure, but there's so many shops you're unlikely to go in every one and try each garment sold in them
20:46:24 <doesthiswork> perhaps I'm underestimating the density of used clothing shops in Britain
20:46:37 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: um, these stores aren't in Britain
20:46:42 <wob_jonas> they're here in Hungary
20:47:23 <wob_jonas> of course if the clothes really were British, that would imply that Britain doesn't have many used clothes stores, it just exports all those used clothes to here
20:47:48 <wob_jonas> just like how western europe exports used cars to Hungary, then Hungary exports them to southern europe, then southern europe exports them to africa
20:47:52 <wob_jonas> or something of that sorts
20:48:10 <doesthiswork> I thought maybe the british had the attitude that every month deserves a fresh set of clothes
20:48:36 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: well that's what these used clothes stores imply
20:49:02 <wob_jonas> they buy fresh clothes every season, and give away the old ones to be sold in Hungary
20:49:38 <doesthiswork> yes, noblesse oblige
20:49:43 <wob_jonas> and the Swedish buy a new car every seven years, give away the seven year old cars to Hungary, who use them for seven more years, then give them away to Bulgaria, who then use them for seven more years, then give them away to central africa
20:50:19 <doesthiswork> C.A.R.
20:50:21 <wob_jonas> (The British cars aren't exported to Hungary obviously, because they drive on the wrong side of the road.)
20:53:10 <doesthiswork> Hungarian drivers no longer use both sides of the road?
20:54:29 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: no longer. they switched to using only one side some time in the first world war or something
20:57:32 <wob_jonas> that's one of the very few side effects of big wars: since almost all the existing infrastructure is exploded by nazi soldiers as they leave the country, you might as well retire old standards as you rebuild things. otherwise it's so hard to switch to a different standard in some things.
20:57:44 <wob_jonas> s/few side/few convenient side/
21:01:00 <rdococ> s/wrong side/left side/
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22:03:56 <doesthiswork> Happy October Revolution Comerades!
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22:11:04 <rdococ> Phantom_Hellover.
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22:28:19 <rdococ> I'm working on a concept for a language in which strings are composed of words, rather than characters. Should punctuation be considered part of the word, or part of the whitespace?
22:30:34 <garit2> rdococ: i would suggest not to do that. But if you really want, then you could select just 1 separation symbol. But even then you might find bad cases like 'apple tree "red fish" hammer', where people try to make a single word with quotes or other way to try to find escape characters..
22:32:06 <rdococ> garit2: Do you mean that "I would suggest not to do that, even in an esoteric language", or "I would suggest not to do that in a non-esoteric language"?
22:32:51 <garit2> Definitely second, and even in first case - may be. I dont see any case where it might be good and many cases where it will cause troubles
22:35:14 <garit2> Unless you make something like a new brainfuck, hehe =) im not sure if you actually plan to use it anywnere
22:36:23 <rdococ> garit2: Okay. Well, I was considering different methods to pass function (well, continuation) arguments.
22:37:19 <rdococ> Uh... what do you think I should go for? I was thinking "by reference" so that functions could modify variables passed to them, but then what about arguments which aren't valid R-values (e.g. "3", or "a + 1")?
22:38:39 <doesthiswork> make "3" mutable
22:39:45 <rdococ> Is that in the "break mathematics and logic" kind of way?
22:40:08 <rdococ> Because that just sounds kind of odd to me.
22:40:24 <doesthiswork> Haskell d
22:43:12 <doesthiswork> haskel allows you to let expressions be whatever you like such as "let 1+1 = 5 in 1+1"
22:43:37 <rdococ> That's pretty odd, then.
22:43:42 <doesthiswork> it has the benefit of consistency
22:44:07 <doesthiswork> so you can uniformly pass expressions by reference
22:45:34 <rdococ> doesthiswork: I had the idea that variables would basically be pointers, and you would have to dereference them to access their values.
22:46:51 <rdococ> E.G. "a = 3" assigns 3 to the variable 'a', but "a" isn't 3; "a" is just a reference/pointer to 3. So, to get the value of "a" (3 in this case), you would have to dereference it e.g. "@a" (meaning '[value] at a').
22:46:54 <doesthiswork> wouldn't you then just be passing everything by value?
22:47:41 <doesthiswork> what does @3 do?
22:47:55 <rdococ> Well, passing "a" to a function would mean that the function parameter - let's say it was named "x", now holds "a". Meaning that "@x" is "a", and "@@x" is 3.
22:48:09 <rdococ> @3 would be the third object in memory, I would suppose.
22:48:09 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
22:49:18 <doesthiswork> a = a sets a to be its own address?
22:49:27 <rdococ> Yes, I think so.
22:50:35 <rdococ> The idea is that "a = 3" is writing the value of 3 to a, while "@a" is getting the value at a. I might be completely wrong here, but I think it's basically an abstracted form of a memory address.
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22:51:15 <rdococ> If I wasn't completely wrong, "a" could function as a memory address. "a = 3" would write 3 to that memory address, while "@a" would get the value stored there.
22:52:23 <doesthiswork> do you have an anti @ to get the address of a value?
22:52:26 <rdococ> It's basically dynamic allocation. I think.
22:52:43 <rdococ> doesthiswork: Nah.
22:54:19 <rdococ> "a = 3; @a = 4" would set the value of the third variable (since they're not *exactly* memory addresses, rather weird... references with pointer-like arithmetic) to 4.
22:54:37 <rdococ> "a + 1" would evaluate to the variable after "a".
22:54:54 <rdococ> (Not its value, of course. That'd be @(a + 1).)
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23:12:29 <\oren\> hmm, suppose all function arguments are mutable
23:14:37 <\oren\> f(x){x = x + 1;}
23:15:11 <\oren\> for(y = 1 to 3)f(1);
23:15:32 <\oren\> would result in the source file reading
23:15:44 <\oren\> for(y = 1 to 3)f(4);
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23:33:15 <\oren\> holy shit I might get to go to singapore!
23:34:28 <boily> he\\oren\! woot!
23:34:33 <boily> Singapore is nice!
23:34:36 <boily> the food is amazing!
23:34:51 <boily> the weather is horribly warm and hot and humid and sweaty, though...
23:35:29 <boily> but the botanical gardens are beautiful!
23:35:36 <boily> and the zoo is fun!
23:35:45 <boily> and the bird park is stupefying!
23:35:58 <boily> and the food is really good!
23:37:15 <doesthiswork> and they can grow bottle gourds
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00:23:53 <ais523> @messages?
00:23:53 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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00:37:59 <oerjan> ais523: my condolences with the horrible demise of your polyglot challenge hth
00:41:23 <ais523> oerjan: it ended?
00:41:38 <oerjan> nothing so dignified
00:42:09 <oerjan> but someone found a language that I am now considering putting on the wiki only to slap Category:Shameful on it.
00:42:25 <ais523> ah right
00:42:31 <ais523> I guess you get the bad with the good
00:43:11 * oerjan also just put a snark in a comment
00:43:29 <\oren\> hwat language was that?
00:43:42 <ais523> I'm surprised that a language like that would have a censored name
00:43:47 <oerjan> although that might be deleted i guess - PPCG is unpredictable.
00:43:48 <ais523> or maybe it doesn't and it was just censored in the post?
00:43:58 <oerjan> only in the title, actually
00:44:05 <oerjan> \oren\: "Cockfuck"
00:44:09 <\oren\> lol
00:44:12 <ais523> Stack Exchange's rules about esolang names with "fuck" in are that they should be censored in question titles but not elsewhere
00:46:36 <alercah> huh
00:47:11 <ais523> alercah: it's basically because they don't want questions about brainfuck reaching Hot Network Questions uncensored and appearing in the sidebar pretty much everywhere
00:47:16 <ais523> this has happened a few times in the past
00:50:02 <alercah> hah
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01:00:25 <quintopia> helloily
01:01:44 <quintopia> i thought you quit ppcg alex?
01:05:02 <shachaf> I always think "ppcg" stands for "planet pooch" something
01:05:46 <shachaf> `ysaclist 67
01:05:47 <HackEgo> ysaclist 67: boily shachaf
01:07:29 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
01:07:37 <boily> I don't think I ever ppcged?
01:08:00 <boily> helloochaf. tdh.
01:11:29 <quintopia> boily: the other alex hth
01:11:44 <boily> there are other alexes?!?!??!!!
01:12:07 <ais523> quintopia: was that directed at me? I don't normally use realnames on IRC because a) they can be ambiguous and b) they don't ping
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01:12:53 <quintopia> yes. i didnt want to ping you if you were busy
01:13:02 <quintopia> but i forgot it was ambiguous
01:13:23 <ais523> if I'm really busy I just don't respond to the ping until later (or just close IRC)
01:15:11 <ais523> really we need a golfing site that's a) suitable for in-depth problems (unlike anagolf) and b) not evil (unlike Stack Exchange)
01:15:26 <shachaf> Stack Exchange is evil?
01:16:44 <ais523> yes
01:16:57 <ais523> I'm not sure if I saved the rant I sent to SE when deleting my account, let me see if I did
01:18:11 <ais523> shachaf: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/stackexchange-resignationletter.txt
01:18:18 <ais523> I had to golf that to fit it into the character limit, too :-(
01:18:35 <oerjan> helloily.
01:18:45 <ais523> they gave a generic reply to it that implied that they didn't actually read what I'd said, and presumably was a stock response worded to sound sympathetic
01:19:18 <shachaf> i,i stack response
01:20:29 <shachaf> Would it be useful to get that text to someone there who would actually read it?
01:22:18 <ais523> they'd have to want to do something about it
01:22:34 <ais523> I believe the Stack Exchange higher-ups have decided to mostly focus on Stack Overflow rather than the exchange more generally
01:22:44 <ais523> and possibly to make it into a jobs site as that's how they make their money
01:24:51 <ais523> PPCG has done a good job at making a usable golfing site, but it's mostly via using half the site features in ways they weren't intended to be used (and in some cases are explicitly not intended to be used)
01:26:11 <shachaf> Are you going to make a better golfing site?
01:26:35 <quintopia> while i agree that se is terrible for code golf, i dont agree that all the incentives are wrong for proper q+a. they do it better than quora. moderation is screwed up but again, better than quora.
01:26:37 <ais523> probably not, I'd like to but I doubt I'd complete it in a reasonable length of time
01:27:14 <ais523> quintopia: I've tried using Stack Overflow to a small extent; I got a useful answer ("what you're trying to do is probably impossible") as a comment and an incorrect answer as an answer which I couldn't downvote because my account was too new
01:27:14 <quintopia> ais523: writr
01:27:33 <shachaf> I've had a better time answering questsions on Stack Overflow than asking them.
01:27:51 <quintopia> ais523: write up a design goals document for an ideal code golf site
01:27:56 <ais523> the main problem with answering questions is that it's hard to overtake an existing answer even if it's correct
01:28:04 <ais523> *even if it's incorrect
01:28:43 <quintopia> true. it could benefit from a medium-style upvote system
01:29:03 <quintopia> but "accepted answers" gets around that to some extent.
01:29:40 <ais523> accepted answers can be fairly random
01:30:13 <ais523> the next issue is, is Stack Overflow meant to be an FAQ site (i.e. compiling the answers to commonly asked questions for the benefit of everyone), or a "get an answer" site (i.e. aiming for an answer that helps the OP in particular)?
01:30:24 <ais523> the answer is, it doesn't know, and the site documentation is contradictory on the matter
01:30:28 <quintopia> can be. but at least there is more control over them
01:30:53 <ais523> PPCG would benefit from having the accepted answer feature disabled altogether, although that may not be true for things like Stack Overflow
01:31:16 <quintopia> i always assumed it was more the latter because it's focus on long carefully worded questions
01:31:45 <quintopia> so about that design goals document
01:31:57 <ais523> I'll have to think about it
01:32:05 <ais523> I've thought about it in the past but I can't remember all my conclusions
01:32:16 <shachaf> Why wouldn't you complete it in a reasonable length of time?
01:33:22 <ais523> because I haven't really been able to do anything major for months, apart from in some cases my day job
01:34:09 <shachaf> Ah.
01:34:16 <shachaf> Maybe we're in the same boat.
01:36:55 <shachaf> Do you have a good idea of what a good code golf site would be like?
01:37:24 <ais523> better than average, I guess; I'm not sure about good
01:37:42 <ais523> I think one thing you have to make a choice about is whether you allow people to compete in languages the site doesn't know about
01:38:13 <ais523> the ideal here would probably be "no, but there's an easy / lightweight way to teach the site about a new language"
01:41:58 <ais523> ah right, I also had the idea that the CAPTCHA would be submitting a competitive solution to a recently submitted problem
01:42:13 <ais523> something that most legitimate users should be able to do but most spammers won't be able to, even human spammers
01:42:42 <ais523> (this is similar to the CAPTCHA-equivalent used by some gaming servers for 1v1 games, which require you to win a ranked game)
01:48:11 <shachaf> You should write up your thoughts about how the site would work somewhere.
01:48:36 <ais523> yes
01:48:44 <ais523> need to write them down first, though!
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03:01:17 <doesthiswork> I saved ais523's answer's from last time this topic came up
03:01:30 <ais523> oh good
03:01:42 <ais523> pastebin them somewhere? it'd help me avoid having to remember them
03:04:34 <shachaf> doesthiswork: Are you going to make the website?
03:04:42 <doesthiswork> I like reading design documents, so when people refuse to make them I console myself with lists of features
03:05:48 <doesthiswork> ais523: https://pastebin.com/V4sHNvy6
03:06:02 <ais523> luckily I like /writing/ design documents
03:06:05 <ais523> so if you just want one of those, there's a chance :-)
03:07:03 <shachaf> Readable link: https://pastebin.com/raw/V4sHNvy6
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03:08:00 <doesthiswork> I could try making a site, but because I've never done more than individual web pages
03:09:36 <doesthiswork> look like I accidentally a clause
03:09:38 <shachaf> Yesterday I cloned someone's website program in a few hours because the only way it worked was by sending information to the server.
03:10:03 <ais523> doesthiswork: that's probably a bad idea because something like this is a) very stateful (therefore easy to get wrong) and b) heavily dependent on sandboxing
03:10:16 <shachaf> PPCG has no sandboxing
03:10:29 <ais523> oh, another thing I'd like (either as part of this or just separately) would be a site which has JavaScript impementations of a large number of languages
03:10:36 <shachaf> Maybe you could make a first version without running programs
03:10:49 <ais523> shachaf: actually it does (Stack Snippets), but a program runner would be a very desired feature for a golfing site
03:10:59 <ais523> on PPCG, people normally use Try It Online!
03:11:30 <shachaf> You should put your site at code.golf except it's taken
03:11:31 <ais523> hmm, we should teach HackEgo Jelly
03:11:37 <shachaf> But golf.codes isn't
03:12:15 <shachaf> What's Jelly, a golfing language?
03:12:18 <ais523> yes
03:12:28 <shachaf> Why are golfing languages interesting?
03:12:34 <ais523> the best general-purpose one of the non-vapourware languages
03:12:35 <shachaf> All they do is make all programs shorter.
03:12:59 <ais523> golfing languages are interesting because they get closer to the way you think about problems
03:13:08 <ais523> in a way, they're closer to natural languages than most programming languages are
03:13:23 <ais523> the reason is that describing the problem is nearly always shorter than describing how to solve it
03:13:44 <shachaf> Well, golfing languages that use a fancy byte encoding.
03:13:49 <ais523> so in a way, the more expressive a language is, the better it is at being a golfing language
03:14:04 <ais523> things like fancy encodings and the like are side issues, the core functionality is much more important
03:14:19 <shachaf> OK, sure, the core functionality can be interesting.
03:14:34 <ais523> most good golfing languages make significant use of higher-order constructs
03:16:34 <ais523> oh, hmm, now I almost want to work on The Underlambda Project again
03:16:47 <ais523> although being written in a language that doesn't currently exist doesn't help matters
03:17:30 <ais523> it's intended to be a single program that's a compiler/interpreter with a very large number of esolangs as frontends and backends, i.e. it can compile a program in esolang X into esolang Y, or run it directly
03:17:46 <ais523> however, it's /also/ written in a language it supports, so it can translate itself into any of those languages (via quining functionality)
03:18:11 <ais523> not very efficient, but lets you create an interpreter or compiler for any supported esolang in any other
03:18:25 <ais523> (I might also include practical languages as output formats, and maybe even subsets of them as input formats)
03:19:24 <ais523> shachaf: anyway, this is a good example of the power of golfing languages: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/120979
03:19:39 <ais523> just try to write something like that in C or Java or Python, it'll be much less clear what the program actually does
03:19:56 <ais523> whereas ~h=∋ᵐ\cᵐ= is close to a direct description of the problem
03:24:12 <shachaf> @where pi_10
03:24:12 <lambdabot> (!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]]
03:24:14 <shachaf> @where e_10
03:24:14 <lambdabot> [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
03:24:53 <shachaf> That's some pretty good golf.
03:25:05 <shachaf> Today I saw an algorithm for computing square roots using only addition and subtraction.
03:25:20 <shachaf> It was surprisingly simple.
03:25:35 <ais523> is that the one that looks like long division?
03:26:12 <shachaf> Hmm, I'm not sure.
03:26:33 <shachaf> The way it works is, to compute sqrt(n), you start with a=5*n, b=5
03:26:51 <shachaf> As long as a >= b, you set (a,b) = (a-b, b+10)
03:27:32 <ais523> oh, hmm, that's more of a bressenham-style algorithm, and different from what I was thinking of
03:27:37 <shachaf> Otherwise you set (a,b) = (100*a, floor(b/10)*100+5)
03:27:52 <shachaf> Which is an awkward way of saying you add two zeros to the end of a and you put a zero as the digit before last in b
03:28:41 <ais523> anyway, golfing languages are normally easier to write in than practical languages for small programs
03:28:55 <ais523> because they're so much more expressive (and often have more builtins too)
03:29:15 <ais523> if they became popular enough I'd imagine they'd take over from things like Perl for short one-line programs
03:29:37 <ais523> they're normally quite bad at maintaining state / doing imperative things, though
03:29:52 <ais523> because they think in terms of descriptions-of-solutions rather than the route you get there
03:30:36 <shachaf> > let f (a,b) | a >= b = (a-b, b+10) | otherwise = (100*a, (b `div` 10) * 100 + 5) in iterate f (5*2,5) !! 30
03:30:38 <lambdabot> (7406673995,1414213515)
03:31:03 <doesthiswork> what kind of properties would make a language work well when you don't understand some of the features and you don't understand the rest of the program you're working on?
03:31:19 <shachaf> > let f (a,b) | a >= b = (a-b, b+10) | otherwise = (100*a, (b `div` 10) * 100 + 5) in map snd $ iterate f (5*2,5)
03:31:22 <lambdabot> [5,15,105,115,125,135,145,1405,1415,14105,14115,14125,14135,14145,141405,141...
03:31:23 <ais523> doesthiswork: you don't understand some of the language or of the program?
03:31:41 <ais523> I'd recommend language features that strongly encourage encapsulation in that case, e.g. strong typing, a heavy use of small subroutines, minimal state
03:32:04 <ais523> that way you can normally write code that's independently useful regardless of what the rest of the program actually does
03:32:26 <ais523> (fwiw, I think that this is the driving force behind Java's design: writing a language which is usable by large teams of low-skilled programmers)
03:32:57 <doesthiswork> would user-definable fancy types help?
03:33:09 <ais523> I'm not sure, it might depend on the details
03:33:14 <shachaf> How fancy?
03:34:23 <doesthiswork> dependent types
03:38:58 <ais523> dependent types basically give a very strong, machine-readable specification of how a function's arguments and return value are meant to work and what the function's meant to do
03:39:13 <ais523> so I guess it'd help, except that dependently-typed languages are normally very hard to write in generally
03:39:25 <ais523> which may well make them worse at everything but less worse than this, rather than better at this
03:42:41 <doesthiswork> My thought was that specifying more of what you think is going on so you can be informed that you were mistaken generally helps in cases like this, but when you're wrong in an unimportant way strictness makes it more difficult to get things done
03:57:21 <doesthiswork> program slices should be small
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04:40:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> That's some pretty good golf. <-- erm isn't [4..]!!n just 4+n, that doesn't seem very golfed.
04:41:27 <oerjan> oh wait Int vs. Integer
04:41:27 <shachaf> oerjan: try it hth
04:41:41 <shachaf> @where pi_11
04:41:41 <lambdabot> [show(foldr(\k a->20*100^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..[4,8..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
04:41:51 <shachaf> That one is even more golfed but it's too slow for lambdabot to evaluate.
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19:54:05 <shachaf> `5 w
19:54:12 <HackEgo> 1/2:tanea//Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj. \ photograph//A photograph is a device for creating photograms. \ monads//Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras. \ beethoven's ninth symphony//Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files. \ entryms
19:54:18 <shachaf> `n
19:54:19 <HackEgo> 2/2:g//ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>
19:55:40 <int-e> `dowg g
19:55:49 <HackEgo> No output.
19:55:53 <int-e> oh
19:55:58 <int-e> `dowg entrymsg
19:56:06 <HackEgo> 9730:2016-11-18 <oerjän> slwd entrymsg//s,wiki,, \ 8218:2016-05-30 <b_jonäs> learn ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki>
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20:18:12 <Taneb> `? tanea
20:18:14 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
20:18:40 <Taneb> Can someone who knows how these things work do the slashwisdom for /Yorj/Cambridgf/
20:18:55 <Taneb> ...or Cambridgd
20:19:19 <int-e> slwd tanea//s/Yorj/Cambridgd/
20:19:22 <int-e> `slwd tanea//s/Yorj/Cambridgd/
20:19:24 <HackEgo> tanea//Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Cambridgd.
20:19:29 <Taneb> int-e++
20:20:07 <int-e> I guess boily would've used ssYorjsCambridgds
20:20:14 <doesthiswork> is Yorj like "The Dukc of Yorj"?
20:20:35 <Taneb> doesthiswork, quite possibly
20:21:08 <doesthiswork> or the old Yorj that New Yorj is named after?
20:21:20 <int-e> . o O ( How's life on Cambridge? )
20:21:21 <Taneb> I think they're the same Yorj
20:21:37 <doesthiswork> (supplementive rather than alternative)
20:21:48 <Taneb> int-e, I like my job but I'm not a huge fan of the city
20:22:06 <Taneb> It feels a lot bigger than York did, and I don't really know many people
20:24:50 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you should move to an even bigger city
20:25:01 <shachaf> Then move back to Cambridge and it'll feel small by comparison.
20:25:30 <shachaf> Are you going to ICFP 2018?
20:25:37 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't know yet
20:25:39 <shachaf> Wait, that one's in Missouri.
20:25:44 <Taneb> I'd certainly like to
20:25:55 <doesthiswork> yes, move to bustling Reykjavik
20:27:07 <shachaf> I recommend moving from York to New York
20:27:22 <Taneb> shachaf, sadly I've left York now so I'll have to move to New Cambridge instead
20:27:23 <shachaf> Nev Yorj
20:27:50 <shachaf> I like New York, I was there a couple of weeks ago.
20:28:35 <doesthiswork> I hear that the rent is too damn high
20:30:03 <shachaf> You could move to the Bronx.
20:31:47 <shachaf> I was walking in the street there and saw 2br apartments selling for <$400k. I was surprised.
20:32:07 <doesthiswork> wow, that's better than I got in rural idaho
20:32:21 <doesthiswork> oh wait "k"
20:32:43 <shachaf> I suspect that's pretty expensive for rural Idaho.
20:33:07 <doesthiswork> a touch
20:34:39 <shachaf> But it's in NY, and cheaper than anything around here.
20:35:15 <shachaf> I guess sometimes apartments that you "buy" have high HOA fees which makes the price kind of meaningless.
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21:33:20 <quintopia> o o o o
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22:01:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BradensEsolangs * New user account
22:08:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53359&oldid=53313 * BradensEsolangs * (+149) Introduced myself
22:09:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53360&oldid=53359 * BradensEsolangs * (+107) signed
22:24:02 <fizzie> fungot: Tell me something about gnomes?
22:24:03 <fungot> fizzie: hunter: what of the heavens, as a matter of course, but it will take you away from the third age a troll-race not before seen appeared in paris at just about the ground, he soon turned it into his sleeves. the stone sunk into his mouth and jaws were completely hidden, and most corrosive agents, and burn all the primates, as if it still seems to have been born to command the undead, has ever managed to cheat him out of i
22:24:36 <fizzie> fungot: That was pretty incoherent, even for you.
22:24:36 <fungot> fizzie: always sweep the floor. an elf would smell its rancid stench at ten metres distance.
22:24:43 <fizzie> That's better.
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22:33:26 <shachaf> ^style
22:33:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:34:29 <fizzie> I thought that'd have the best chance re gnomes.
22:35:20 <shachaf> fizzie: You should make a good golf site for ais523
22:35:47 <fizzie> Not until they write down & up the things that make up a good golf site. (Also not after that either.)
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23:18:42 <shachaf> But you're a great web developer
23:18:44 <shachaf> You made `edit
23:18:53 <shachaf> `edit bin/edit
23:18:54 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/bin/edit
23:19:44 <shachaf> `sled bin/edit//s/http/https/g
23:19:46 <HackEgo> bin/edit//#!/usr/bin/env python \ \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ \ if len(sys.argv) < 2: \ sys.exit('httpss://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/') \ \ f = os.path.realpath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|\.hg(?:/|ignore$|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is not editable.") \ print 'httpss://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/'
23:19:59 <shachaf> oops
23:20:12 <shachaf> `revert
23:20:13 <HackEgo> Done.
23:20:38 <shachaf> Oh, the version in there was synced a long time ago
23:21:17 <shachaf> 8 months?!
23:36:15 <fizzie> People don't use `edit much.
23:36:37 <fizzie> Besides, I think the zjoust website is much more of a web-development showcase.
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01:36:25 <quintopia> i agree. zemhill is a marvel of modern engineering
01:36:59 <quintopia> (that people don't use much)
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02:21:01 <quintopia> of all the types of cats, which type of cat is better than a cat riding on a roomba?
02:22:22 <fizzie> That was like 85% of the reason why we got a Roomba in the first place, and then our cat never rode on it. :/
02:22:44 <shachaf> What was the other 15%?
02:22:58 <fizzie> It gets rid of dust.
02:23:20 <quintopia> so you only got 15% of your money's worth?
02:23:33 <quintopia> maybe get another better type of cat?
02:24:48 <fizzie> I'll just try to visit other cats. Some of the benefits, none of the inconvenience.
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16:20:27 <b_jonas> fungot, can you implement non-uniform polymorphism?
16:20:27 <fungot> b_jonas: someone's been spiking the pits! and never moved she from before my face, so many pilgrims came to the game, coding a large box?
16:21:47 <Taneb> b_jonas: what is non-uniform polymorphism?
16:22:35 <b_jonas> Taneb: dunno, maybe fungot knows
16:22:35 <fungot> b_jonas: it is not to be confused with issek the armless, issek of the river styx in charon's boat. " my dear, you can taste the delicious wine that much that, tall and cone-shaped with stars and crescent moons all over it.
16:22:54 <Taneb> b_jonas: fungot certainly gives us non-uniform answers
16:22:54 <fungot> Taneb: they say that hackers often feel jumpy about eating nymphs.
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19:31:20 <fizzie> fungot: TBH, I don't think there was much danger confusing non-uniform polymorphism with Issek the Armless in the first place.
19:31:20 <fungot> fizzie: they say that teleport traps are the same date for the keeping of oaths and contracts. he is also said, too, that he was hairy only in the village. what shall we do? mephistopheles: nay, i can only hear your heartbeat.
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20:37:06 <quintopia> is issek sexy?
20:37:30 <quintopia> being armless doesnt rule it out. cf. venus de milo
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23:19:00 <fizzie> Hmm. The wiki is down.
23:19:31 <fizzie> (Has been for the last 7 hours, actually.)
23:34:13 -!- fizzie has set topic: Wiki down, CaC panel unresponsive, waiting and hoping | Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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00:53:32 <oerjan> fizzie: you have access to the CaC panel now?
00:54:16 <fizzie> oerjan: No, I just asked the big G to check.
00:54:26 <fizzie> (Don't want to ping them unnecessarily.)
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01:03:57 <oerjan> `? atrix
01:04:05 <oerjan> oh right
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01:07:43 <fizzie> At least my most recent backup is less than a day old. But we don't exactly have an alternative place ready.
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04:38:17 <shachaf> copumpkin: yopumpkin
04:38:27 <shachaf> do you read Matt Levine twh
04:45:12 <copumpkin> hi shachaf
04:45:14 <copumpkin> no
04:47:07 <copumpkin> how goes it?
04:47:15 <shachaf> why not, he's the best
04:47:32 <shachaf> is it because he makes fun of Bridgewater?
04:54:53 <copumpkin> lol who doesn't
05:01:44 <copumpkin> I mean, I've read occasional articles of his
05:01:51 <copumpkin> but I wouldn't say I read him
05:01:56 <copumpkin> you do?
05:04:10 <shachaf> Of course
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11:45:28 <b_jonas> ...
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11:45:47 <APic>
11:45:49 <b_jonas> fungot, how many examples have you seen when a big corporate website was redesigned and it became better as a result?
11:45:49 <fungot> b_jonas: they say that an apple will fall to the size of the gods as well". as a mare, flea, fly, falcon, seal, and from my sheath i drew my snickersnee! --koko, lord of the ring, by sir w.s. gilbert)
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12:07:02 <b_jonas> argh! why is 7z trying to recurse into subdirectories when I'm specifically telling it to -r-
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14:59:25 <b_jonas> `ping
14:59:33 <b_jonas> I think the server is down again
14:59:36 <b_jonas> I can't reach the wiki
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15:25:47 <quintopia> grow longer arms
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16:29:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: See topic.
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17:04:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok
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19:52:46 <rdococ> In languages where functions may return multiple values, would it make sense for a function that returns no values to effectively act as if there was literally nothing there? e.g. let's say f() returns true if it is called with 0 parameters. Now let's say void() returns zero arguments. Then f(void()) would be true.
19:53:14 <rdococ> I mean, of course it might, but that's not what I've seen in practice.... although I've only seen one language where functions may return multiple values, so...
19:53:38 <alercah> rdococ: so, sort of you could
19:53:51 <alercah> from a theroetical sense, it's actually returning a member of a one-element type
19:54:06 <alercah> rather than a zero-element type, since you can't return
19:55:23 <\oren\> well, hmm, if void was treated as a proper type
19:55:37 <\oren\> then you could have variables, like
19:55:39 <\oren\> void x;
19:56:57 <\oren\> so really there's "a type with no values", "a type with 1 value", and "not really a type"
19:57:10 <\oren\> as different voids
19:58:34 <alercah> yeah
19:58:37 <\oren\> void in C is not really a type, it's used where the syntax requires a type but there isn't one
19:58:55 <alercah> or alternatively it's a 1-value type that can't be used in all contexts
19:59:01 <\oren\> right
19:59:25 <\oren\> but suppose there was a type Void
20:00:39 <\oren\> then you could do everything with it, but it would rarely actually compile into any code
20:00:55 <\oren\> void f(void)
20:01:16 <\oren\> void y; void x = f(y);
20:02:00 <\oren\> if sizeof(void) is 0, then void pointers would be usable better
20:02:06 <\oren\> well kind of
20:02:24 <\oren\> void *x = malloc(sizeof(void))
20:03:23 <\oren\> i wonder how rust does void
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20:38:20 <rdococ> If functions are thought of as returning tuples containing each return value, rather than returning those return values individually, then returning nothing would be equivalent to returning an empty tuple containing no values.
20:41:37 <rdococ> Hmm... is there even a way to use zero-element types? I mean, if they have *zero* elements, then how would that type do anything?
21:00:43 <rdococ> Huh. Apparently a bottom type may be classified as the return value of functions which never return (e.g. infinite loops, or functions that exit to other continuations).
21:00:50 <rdococ> s/return value/return type
21:09:19 <zzo38> ?metar CYVR
21:09:19 <lambdabot> CYVR 102100Z 28010KT 15SM FEW004 BKN023 09/08 A2990 RMK SC2CU4 SLP128
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22:09:11 <zzo38> GNU C does allow struct{} with no fields, with size zero.
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22:12:21 <fizzie> \oren\: You can have an "extern void x;"
22:12:44 <fizzie> You could have a regular "void x;", it's just that void is an incomplete type that can never be completed.
22:13:01 <shachaf> I wish C++ supported void values.
22:13:41 <zzo38> If you want a empty type then use struct{} instead of void
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22:14:02 <fizzie> C11 6.2.5p19: "The `void` type comprises an empty set of values; it is an incomplete object type that cannot be completed."
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22:16:39 <zzo38> Yes, but struct{} type has one possible value, like () in Haskell. But, void is no type; used when there is no return value (it returns without giving a value) or when it is void* is a pointer to not specifying what is the pointer to type.
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22:19:01 <fizzie> You can also have a function declaration like int f(int x, void y, double z); but it's not super-useful, since you can't have a definition for it, nor can you call it.
22:19:14 <\oren\> actually, I looked and it turns out I have an empty struct in one of my projects
22:19:29 <\oren\> it has a bunch of methods but no data in it
22:19:38 <fizzie> \oren\: Your project is not strictly conf.. oh, C++.
22:19:56 <fizzie> That's allowed, though I think it has a non-zero size in C++?
22:19:56 <\oren\> yeah C++
22:20:00 <zzo38> fizzie: Is it even allowed?
22:20:13 <shachaf> I think it's allowed in C++ with a non-zero size.
22:20:33 <zzo38> I think the GNU documentation says that in C++ the sizeof empty struct is one, but in C mode, the size is zero, which is more sensible.
22:20:55 <fizzie> I think so too. The non-zero size had something to do with the necessity of having different subobjects for multiple inheritance, or some-such
22:22:03 <shachaf> Well, there's also the fact that you have two objects they can't have the same address, or something like that?
22:22:05 <\oren\> basically it used to have data in it but now only the derived classes have data
22:22:06 <shachaf> I don't remember.
22:22:23 <fizzie> https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/classes-and-objects#sizeof-empty says that, yeah. "To ensure that the addresses of two different objects will be different."
22:23:00 <fizzie> \oren\: structs with only pure virtual methods (and no data) are pretty conventional way to define interfaces in C++.
22:23:59 <zzo38> GNU C also allows the number of elements in an array to be zero, which in my opinion is also sensible (such as a field in a struct).
22:24:00 <fizzie> Looks like I was remembering the base class thing almost exactly the other way around -- empty base classes don't need to have distinct bytes in the resulting object.
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02:03:32 -!- rdococ has changed nick to Rodger.
02:04:20 <Rodger> Don't confuse me with that other guy named Roger I found via /ns info.
02:04:55 <Rodger> But I think it's fine, since multiple people probably go by this name in real life. Speaking of which, this isn't my real name.
02:05:31 <zzo38> OK
02:09:20 <doesthiswork> you chose the name because many people would be more relaxed if they got a good rodgering once in a while?
02:14:32 <Rodger> Heh.
02:15:56 <Rodger> Well, that and its other meanings combined.
02:47:01 * oerjan vaguely thinks we used to have some RodgerSomethingOrOther in here
02:47:21 <oerjan> hm we have rodgort`
02:47:36 <oerjan> but that wasn't it
02:48:14 <oerjan> I,I Rodger, Rodger
02:48:59 <Rodger> ?
02:50:33 <doesthiswork> the Jolly Rogerer?
02:51:04 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVq4_HhBK8Y
02:51:50 <oerjan> (apparently googling it these days gives star wars hits)
02:58:58 <quintopia> aye aye?
03:30:38 <zzo38> Jolly Roger is a kind of flag will a skull I think?
03:31:37 <zzo38> s/will/with/
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03:52:48 <zzo38> I have made up a way to slightly improve compression of Dr.Halo and PackBits (without altering the file format at all).
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07:06:30 <zzo38> Do you know if any other program does this? The example files I have found do not seem to do this
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11:53:27 <fizzie> Hmm. Still no sign of life from the system. We might need to start thinking seriously about alternatives at some point.
11:54:19 * int-e CaCkles maniacally.
11:56:24 <int-e> good news, their sales frontend is still up...
11:57:08 <fizzie> When I asked Gregor, the control panel was "up" but none of the power-down/reboot/... options actually responded.
11:58:44 <fizzie> Wonder if people'd contribute to the hosting costs if I asked. Around $3-4/month is the lowest I've found so far for a VPS with 2G of RAM. Just hard to tell if these places would actually be an improvement.
11:58:48 <fizzie> (2G is just the current specs, don't really have a feeling of how well it'd run with less.)
12:04:26 <fizzie> For the record, the ones I have left tabs open are https://www.scaleway.com/virtual-cloud-servers/ https://www.hyperexpert.com/vps.php https://www.woothosting.com/pulse/cart.php?a=add&pid=73
12:04:30 <fizzie> The last is an odd special deal via lowendbox.com, I can't tell if it would stay that price. Their regular prices are quite a bit higher. And Scaleway has their odd €2.99/month dedicated ARM server as well.
12:04:46 <Taneb> (I'd certainly contribute to that)
12:14:27 <int-e> > 1
12:14:29 <lambdabot> 1
12:14:56 <int-e> (I think I've said before that I feel I'm doing enough by paying for that little thing.)
12:16:51 <fizzie> I could put up a Wikipedia-style banner. ;)
12:16:59 <fizzie> Where do you run lambdabot?
12:17:03 <int-e> Though perhaps it would be smarter to ask the haskell infrastructure people to host it somewhere, hmm.
12:17:13 <int-e> Ramnode, but they're not the cheapest option.
12:18:11 <fizzie> Yeah. The thing with the cheapest places is, they generally all have rather mixed reviews. Of course in relative terms it might still be an upgrade from the current.
12:18:36 <int-e> I find it hard to imagine that you could do worse than CaC.
12:19:31 <int-e> (It's possible, but basically the only reason that one would put up with CaC's QoS is their insane pricing. There's a connection between the two, I'm sure.)
12:22:41 <int-e> (I have good experience with Ramnode's support. Tickets tend to be answered in hours (sometimes minutes) rather than days or weeks if at all.)
12:25:44 <fizzie> Mm. They've got reasonable reviews, and the prices (for "standard KVM") are half of DigitalOcean's. Still looking for that mythical combination of cheap & good though.
12:26:13 <int-e> fizzie: funny thing about the wikipedia style banner... I never noticed it, because it required javascript.
12:27:13 <int-e> Yeah standard KVM (not OpenVZ because at least when I tried, it didn't have proper namespace support which I use for rudimentary sandboxing.)
12:28:18 <int-e> Anyway I just hate doing that kind of research, so tedious.
12:37:03 <fizzie> That's definitely true.
12:37:09 <fizzie> OVH is another one of those "good prices, terrible support" places, except a little more mainstream, I guess.
12:37:43 <fizzie> They also had a very written-about downtime just the other day, so we might feel right at home. ;)
12:38:23 <fizzie> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/09/ovh_datacenters_go_titsup/
12:39:30 <int-e> Huh, I missed that terrible blunder.
12:41:00 <int-e> https://www.1blu.de/server/vserver/ is one of those too good to be true offers
12:41:43 <fizzie> There's also hostens.com, which I'm amused by simply because it sounds so much like the bed company.
12:44:19 <fizzie> They have surprisingly good user reviews, wonder if they're gaming the system somehow.
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12:52:45 <int-e> "Essentially, there wasn't sufficient redundancy in its power supply lines, so when one cable failed, it all went down, down, down." Can we call this "overcommitted redundancy"? I mean, VPS hosting is all about overcommitment...
13:10:43 <fizzie> Think I'll setup my readonly backup copy again, while we're waiting.
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13:31:30 <fizzie> Backup copy should be up, as soon as your DNS caches expire, or directly at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ (should've added that as subjectAltName in the certificate...)
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17:32:32 <zzo38> Can the compression algorithm I have implemented in ffcut.c to be proved optimal for that file format? Is it even optimal, or not?
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22:33:03 <zzo38> I have experimented another way to compress the map data. Dynamic tiles help with compression (as well as making the editor quicker to use), but then it also uses RLE with three kind of runs, and stores data in a boustrophedon order as well. The three kind of runs are: homogeneous runs, heterogeneous runs, and copy-above runs.
22:33:17 <zzo38> Here is a hexdump of one compressed map (with a five byte header): 3c 00 1a 00 00 0f 31 18 2e 20 32 df ad 55 3d b1 29 2e b2 55 3d b0 1b 2e 05 35 e0 ab 06 36 3c 2e fe aa 11 2e 26 33 c1 06 34 55 3d 15 34 e4 aa 55 3d 25 33 db ab
22:34:35 <zzo38> Code 255 is currently not defined; it is meant for back references, but how back references are working currenly is not defined or implemented. Do you perhaps have any kind of better idea about this?
22:37:17 <diginet> I have a question: there was a BF derivative I was reading about that got rid of the [] and replaced them with something else, does anyone know what that was?
22:38:32 <zzo38> I know there are such thing but I also don't know what it is
23:00:17 <fizzie> diginet: Just different symbols, or something with different semantics?
23:00:39 <diginet> fizzie: different semantics
23:04:57 <fizzie> Some variants that have an implicit loop around the whole program, and then replace [] with some other control structure.
23:05:00 <fizzie> There's 207 pages in the "Brainfuck derivatives" category on the wiki. :/
23:06:24 <Slereah__> Brainfuck is a very easy language to grasp and modify
23:06:35 <Slereah__> Hell it was invented twice independantly
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00:09:12 <LKoen> diginet: there are at least ten that replace [] with function calls
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00:24:36 <Slereah__> how many of them are just Brainfuck with a cypher on top
00:24:48 <Slereah__> Replace the symbols with names of US presidents or whatever
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00:31:10 <fizzie> If you mean about all the BF derivatives, we do have a separate "Brainfuck equivalents" category as well, which has 50 languages in it.
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21:29:39 <zzo38> Do you have any more RPG maps that I may be able to test my map compression method with?
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21:44:35 <whom> hihi
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23:03:15 <PinealGlandOptic> what is better: map file to memory or read it to memory? given the fact then it will be parsed as a whole after reading
23:04:14 <zzo38> I don't know
23:04:29 <PinealGlandOptic> but it seems, many people prefer mapping
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23:07:45 <fizzie> There might not necessarily be much of a difference, since what the system fundamentally needs to do in both cases (copy some data from a storage device into memory) is pretty similar. But the mapping approach can be more convenient, and have some performance advantages (might have less system calls, no need to ever swap since the data is sort of already swapped by definition).
23:08:39 <PinealGlandOptic> fizzie: I see, thanks
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23:43:25 <PinealGlandOptic> has anybody hard about API to file UNIX command? so not to spawn it ...
23:43:32 <PinealGlandOptic> has anybody heard about API to file UNIX command? so not to spawn it ...
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23:57:18 <Roger9> Format/OS/whatever that uses "Over." as a newline, as opposed to "\n", "\r\n", or "\r".
23:57:25 <Roger9> Then "Out." to mark the end of a file.
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00:02:06 <fizzie> PinealGlandOptic: The library used by one implementation of 'file' (e.g. the one in Debian/Ubuntu) is called 'magic', which you can link to and use programmatically.
00:02:38 <fizzie> See https://linux.die.net/man/3/libmagic for example.
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00:15:23 <PinealGlandOptic> fizzie: thanks!
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01:41:50 <doesthiswork> I came up with a great idea for a language for programming in the large. Whenever you call a user defined function you have to specify the exact value of the result. If the actual result doesn't match what you provided, the program quits.
01:50:07 <PinealGlandOptic> doesthiswork: user defined function should be defined or not?
01:50:26 <PinealGlandOptic> I vote for function definition, for better confusion
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01:57:35 <doesthiswork> I don't quite understand the question
01:58:41 <doesthiswork> Oh, yes I was assumeing that the functions had to be defined before being used. Forward references are a sloppy practice
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02:02:20 <alercah> doesthiswork: except that then functions would be entirely useless
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02:06:24 <doesthiswork> Best practice is functions for their self documenting names. That is still an important purpose
02:10:50 <Roger9> I'd agree with alercah.
02:12:41 <alercah> doesthiswork: That's removed if you have to repeat the definition anyway.
02:12:52 <alercah> It might as well just be a local variable.
02:14:12 <doesthiswork> That's a good point. Local variables are are underconstrained, and can be used as a loophole.
02:14:37 <alercah> Well what I mean is
02:14:38 <alercah> if you have
02:14:50 <alercah> x = f[results in y + 2](y)
02:14:54 <alercah> you might well say x = y+2
02:14:57 <alercah> or
02:15:01 <alercah> x_f = y+2 to preserve the name
02:15:04 <alercah> or x = y+2 // f
02:15:36 <doesthiswork> Perhaps you should recapitulate how the variable got the value it has every time you use it, so you don't get it confused with other variables
02:16:54 <doesthiswork> treating it kind of like a 0 argument function
02:17:14 <alercah> also
02:17:20 <alercah> er
02:17:26 <alercah> I suppose you could do that
02:17:35 <alercah> But then, again, why have a variable?
02:17:42 <alercah> Why not simply write the expression inline everywhere
02:17:52 <alercah> since every experession would need a full expansion of everything
02:18:05 <alercah> and you'd lose mutable state
02:18:14 <alercah> most likely
02:19:06 <doesthiswork> because variables are an important component of abstraction and generalization. Getting rid of them entirely would make the program harder to read
02:19:35 <alercah> But this would be equivalent to that
02:19:46 <alercah> If I write x = y[definition of y]+2
02:20:00 <alercah> then to use x I have to write z = x[definition of x, which includes definition of y]*2
02:20:11 <alercah> I can't use any values without retyping the entire code leading up to them
02:20:15 <alercah> defeating the point of abstraction
02:21:09 <doesthiswork> Well, people can get confused when things get too abstract. Its good to have concrete examples to help explicate and ground it.
02:22:23 <doesthiswork> Maybe it would be more efficient if the compiler substituted in the definitions for you
02:24:06 <doesthiswork> So you wouldn't have to spend time typing redundant information. I think you have a good point
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02:41:04 <alercah> If the compiler substitutes the definitions then isn't that the same as not requiring them in the ifrst place?
02:52:55 <doesthiswork> No, because if you didn't require them then it would be easy to call the wrong function by mistake.
02:54:10 <alercah> But if the compiler is substituting definitions in
02:54:14 <alercah> then there is no guarantee
02:54:21 <alercah> since the compiler will just provide the wrong one
03:01:11 <doesthiswork> Ok, so it needs some extra redundancy to cat the compiler substitution errors. Maybe you could type in a hash that should match what the compiler will substitute in. This would protect against the compiler makeing the wrong substitution
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14:08:22 <watered> heyy
14:08:28 <watered> is this esoteric agenda?
14:08:58 <Slereah__> wot
14:08:58 <ais523> watered: it's about esoteric programming
14:21:38 <watered> any interesting accomplishments of this language?
14:22:22 <ais523> it's not a single language, esoteric programming languages are basically the entire family of languages for which being useful to use in practice is not a primary goal
14:22:58 <watered> does it prove anything?
14:23:04 <ais523> there are a number of other reasons to write languages, e.g. to learn how to write languages, to explore the edges of what's possible in programming, as art
14:23:49 <ais523> you can prove plenty of things with esoteric programming languages, but they're mostly confined to other esoteric programming languages
14:23:57 <ais523> some of the most practical proofs I've been seen have been related to exploits in other programs
14:24:16 <watered> interesting
14:24:17 <ais523> showing that you can exploit the bug to do anything via implementing an esolang (= esoteric programming language) usnig it
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15:00:51 <Slereah_> Actually esoteric languages are very useful for computation theory
15:00:56 <Slereah_> Since they're very simpler
15:01:16 <Slereah_> IIRC the proof for the control structure theorem was done in the original brainfuck
15:01:17 <Slereah_> P''
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18:46:34 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
18:46:40 <fizzie> (CaC is back.)
18:53:02 <fizzie> I'm still planning to move it to some slightly more reputable host, and ask (in a tasteful way, y'know) for people to contribute to the costs (est. around $5/month).
18:53:09 <fizzie> I was thinking we might have an "Esolang:Backers" page (or some such), where you could get your name on by donating (and opting in). Let me know if you find this offensive / have other objections / thoughts.
18:58:49 <ais523> I'm not offended by the request
18:59:32 <ais523> I find sending money over the Internet to be a huge hassle though, to the extent that I tend not to be responsive to requests for money because the act of sending it is so complex
19:02:10 <fizzie> That's fair. I believe receiving it is pretty complicated as well, though I got some tips from a random person who emailed me re the note I had left on top of the backup wiki copy.
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19:44:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: also, transferring money online, as opposed to paying with money online, when it's in a foreign currency, has a high constant fee at my bank, so it's not really practical. whereas anything on paypal has a high percentage fee.
19:46:15 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sending banknotes in an envelope has a low enough fee, but is not insured.
19:47:14 <fizzie> Yeah, most of the things I've looked at have had percentage fees attached. Not sure if I'd call them "high", but still.
19:48:52 <fizzie> Maybe we should just be selling my fungot T-shirt design online, it's already got an esolangs.org link on it. ;)
19:48:52 <fungot> fizzie: they say that eating royal jelly attracts grizzly owlbears. ( travels and researches in south africa, by e. howard, bjorn nyberg, and the light but warm silken stuff that the ladies were accustomed to wearing luxurious clothings and so he flew along the slender catwalk that still seemed awfully insubstantial to flynn, though they are quite difficult to kill large animals... their lower teeth fit perfectly into the requi
19:49:03 <wob_jonas> fizzie: it's tricky, because they always list their nominal fees for various operations, such as transfer or payment, and those are low. but paypal insists that I can only send HUF to my account, and they're only willing to charge my bank card in HUF, and convert currency themselves, and they convert it very expensively, whereas my bank converts th
19:49:03 <wob_jonas> em cheaply.
19:49:32 <wob_jonas> They are clearly doing that to add a hidden fee, because my bank can handle charges on my bank card in any reasonable currency.
19:50:32 <fizzie> Yeah. I think I had some PayPal worries when moving from Finland to UK as well, they seem pretty strict about the account being tied to a particular country and having one currency.
19:50:38 <fizzie> Will have to investigate more, I guess.
19:50:52 <fizzie> Of course there's always BitCoin.
19:51:56 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, my brother complained even more about it, since he lives in Sweden, and had troubles with telling paypal that
19:52:26 <wob_jonas> fizzie: it's like a lot of commercial wobsites on the internet are optimized to the case when they can guess your country and language from your IP.
19:52:35 <wob_jonas> And they never allow you to second guess.
19:53:02 <wob_jonas> Like, there's websites for scientific publishers that serve journal articles for free to "developing countries".
19:53:59 <wob_jonas> And this is international websites, not the websites of all-Hungarian stores, which are even worse.
19:54:39 <wob_jonas> In particular, mediamarkt.hu has a most terrible website for online orders, but since there are only like seven big electronics stores in Hungary, you can't just choose another one.
19:55:37 <wob_jonas> I hope the post will eventually just kick them in the butt for sending mass packages with improperly printed addresses.
19:56:14 <wob_jonas> And then they won't be able to offer free or cheap postage.
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19:59:48 <fizzie> I'm paying Finnish VAT rates for my DigitalOcean host instead of the UK ones, because they don't let you set the VAT country, it's forced to be the country of the bank issuing the credit card you're paying with. (And the Finnish card has better currency conversion than the UK one.)
20:01:36 <wob_jonas> fizzie: which one of those has a higher VAT for that?
20:01:46 <fizzie> Finland, unfortunately.
20:02:21 <wob_jonas> I see.
20:04:01 <shachaf> Does that make up for the higher VAT?
20:04:48 <fizzie> shachaf: I think that's what I ended up getting, when I tried to check.
20:05:06 <fizzie> Although I have a vague feeling I shouldn't be able to choose, but the VAT should be based on residency.
20:06:00 <wob_jonas> I've no idea how it's supposed to work
20:06:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know. It's not like there's a physical location where they're selling the thing.
20:07:12 <int-e> I also think that's how it works in theory (residency).
20:09:03 <int-e> but giving a false address is probably easier than giving a bank account in a different country...
20:09:56 <shachaf> just move somewhere with no VAT hth
20:09:59 <int-e> (I expect that nobody's verifying that address.)
20:10:12 <shachaf> How do I find out my credit card's exchange rates?
20:10:34 <int-e> pay with it and let yourself be surprised?
20:10:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ask your bank. my bank has a homepage on the internet, and if you dig through all the legalese that is deliberately written confusing so you don't understand it, and phone them up to clear up ambiguities, you can usually figure out everything.
20:11:15 <int-e> (the real answer is to read the terms of service, which *should* tell you how the bank handles foreign currency transactions)
20:11:17 <wob_jonas> I think most banks have similar homepages.
20:11:24 <shachaf> Most of my credit/debit cards have a foreign transaction fee.
20:11:35 <shachaf> Recently I got one that doesn't (it should arrive in the mail soon)
20:12:09 <int-e> I think they add about 3% to the official exchange rate in my case.
20:12:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: not high ones though. they have a high fee for foreign transfers, and a higher than usual fee for withdrawing cash in foreign countries, but for just card or online payment they only use a currency sell exchange rate which has a low margin.
20:12:55 <int-e> But I didn't check.
20:13:09 <shachaf> I think the usual fee is around 3%
20:13:16 <wob_jonas> I'm quite sure they don't add a fee for foreign currency payments for me.
20:14:14 <int-e> I'd expect it to be hidden in the exchange rate.
20:15:14 <shachaf> But if they can set the exchange rate 3% higher, they can do the same thing even if you do pay an additional fee.
20:15:24 <shachaf> Also foreign transactions can be USD, I think.
20:16:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: the sell and buy exchange rate for that definitely differ, but nothing as big as 3% is hidden there.
20:17:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: for transfers, they charge the very high flat rate if the destination is a bank account not in Hungary or the currency is not HUF. for payment, neither matters.
20:17:36 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure about foreign currency withdrawal for ATM, I've never needed to check that.
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20:24:53 <shachaf> "We're sorry, but we're currently upgrading our Website."
20:25:03 <shachaf> Who upgrades their website during business hours?
20:34:46 <wob_jonas> shachaf: business hours where? It's in the night!
20:35:06 <shachaf> This website has "us" in the domain name
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21:12:28 <\oren\> I should write an antivirus that actually just mines bitcoins when you scan
21:14:03 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, there already exist malware masquarading as an antivirus
21:14:16 <wob_jonas> I don't know if there's a bitcoin mining one in particular, but in general these exist
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22:13:56 <wob_jonas> fungot, why did I try to look up best practices when I already know what I want the answer to be? now I just have to worry I'm not doing what the interweb says.
22:13:57 <fungot> wob_jonas: they say that a fortune only has 1 line and you should call your armor before sitting on a strictly cartesian sense.
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22:17:03 <int-e> so the advantage of asking fungot is that you won't know what the answer will be?
22:17:03 <fungot> int-e: they say that nurses sometimes carry scalpels and never use a unicorn horn means you've missed the bunch. turning round again with a face of the stone would fall again. ( i wandered lonely as a cloud in fear. the christian calendar adopted the same fashion that a wizard!"
22:17:33 <int-e> `grwp unicorn
22:17:49 <HackEgo> horn:Horn is the reduction system behind Prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns. \ ipu:IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
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22:17:58 <wob_jonas> Nice. whose is that?
22:18:06 <wob_jonas> `howg horn
22:18:13 <HackEgo> ​<oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/prolog/Prolog/\' wisdom/horn \ <b_jonäs> learn Horn is the reduction system behind prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns.
22:18:30 <wob_jonas> yeah, it looked like one of mine but I didn't remember setting it
22:18:42 <int-e> `dowg horn
22:18:48 <HackEgo> 7107:2016-03-06 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/prolog/Prolog/\' wisdom/horn \ 7105:2016-03-06 <b_jonäs> learn Horn is the reduction system behind prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns.
22:19:00 <int-e> not so recent I guess
22:19:24 <wob_jonas> yeah, but few of my wisdoms are recent anyway
22:19:34 <wob_jonas> `dowg submarine jousting
22:19:41 <HackEgo> 8400:2016-06-08 <oerjän> sled wisdom/submarine jousting//s/./S/ \ 8399:2016-06-07 <boil̈y> le/rn submarine jousting/submarine jousting is unexplainable. \ 8398:2016-06-07 <boil̈y> le/rn submarine jousting/This is unexplainable.
22:19:56 <int-e> `? password
22:19:58 <HackEgo> The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
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22:58:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53361 * Fizzie * (+2919) esolangs.org hosting funding proposal
23:01:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53362&oldid=52884 * Fizzie * (+69) (Temporary) link to "Esolang talk:Funding" for visibility
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23:54:19 <shachaf> `olist 1105
23:54:20 <HackEgo> olist 1105: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
23:57:00 <wob_jonas> thanks, shachaf
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01:49:49 <Downgoat_> Hi
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01:52:25 <ais523> hi Downgoat, Downgoat_
01:52:30 <Downgoat_> Hi
01:52:40 <Downgoat_> I think I IRCd incorrcetly which is why they are two downgoat :|
01:52:47 <ais523> apart from connecting twice you seem to have done everything correctly
01:53:03 <ais523> other one's a ghost by the look of things, it'll probably time out in a couple of minutes
01:53:09 <shachaf> `hi Downgoat_
01:53:09 <HackEgo> Hi Downgoat_. Howngoat_.
01:53:30 <ais523> Downgoat's a regular at PPCG, they're apparently discussing making a new golfing site too and are much further on than we are
01:53:41 <Downgoat_> are most people here on PPCG?
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01:54:01 <ais523> no, only a few of us are
01:54:07 <shachaf> I'm not on PPCG but I like code golf.
01:54:24 <ais523> code golf is fairly popular here because there's a lot of overlap, but few people here actually golf regularly
01:54:33 <Downgoat> ah
01:54:44 <ais523> sometimes I look at PPCG and have a go at a question if it looks sufficiently interesting, but (after deleting my account) I've only posted once
01:54:51 <Downgoat> well our current code is hosted on GH here: https://github.com/Mego/PPCG-v2
01:54:58 <ais523> because the site works so much better when it's not trying to force you to get rep
01:55:08 <Downgoat> and for those who use stackexchange we have a chat here: https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/68212/ppcg-v2
01:55:24 <Downgoat> but we have auth, posts, markdown rendering, and we're working on other stuff
01:55:44 <Downgoat> but we don't really have a plan on what things we actually want so that's still for desciding
01:56:03 <ais523> I think some sort of automatic program runner/verifier is one of the features that a) golf sites most benefit from and b) PPCG doesn't have, although you can't use it in all contexts
01:56:30 <Downgoat> Yeah. if we're all familar with TIO, we're planning on using that heavily
01:56:36 <shachaf> How do you think a golf site should address nondeterminism like $$?
01:56:49 <ais523> anagolf's latest solution fixes that pretty neatly
01:56:51 <Downgoat> you mean in markdown?
01:57:04 <ais523> allow anyone to re-mark the program, it gets removed from the leaderboards if it's "magically" stopped working
01:57:22 <shachaf> So the program has to work consistently.
01:57:28 <ais523> this also means that in questions where your program is meant to work for all inputs, you can use the recheck request to submit a counterexample; that doesn't work in anagolf because it has a fairly primitive marking system
01:57:43 <shachaf> Hmm, I wonder whether people have used programs that rely on the current date.
01:57:58 <ais523> under PPCG rules your program would have to work consistently too (because requiring a particular $$ would count as an illegal form of input)
01:58:31 <shachaf> What about a program that only works in the 21st century?
01:58:37 <ais523> shachaf: on the original code golfing site, which predated anagolf and collapsed due to not having questions very often, someone used time() as a magic number once
01:59:23 <ais523> I think if you're going to write a program in http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 or something like that, having the recheck link not work is not really a huge issue
01:59:47 <shachaf> `cat bin/2014
01:59:47 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
01:59:52 <shachaf> So that's what that's about.
01:59:54 <ais523> although I think having something like a "disputed" or even "invalid" tag that people can vote onto or off the post would be worthwhile, in cases where it's unclear whether the program complies with the rules
02:00:49 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, I see a big loophole in that implementation
02:00:55 <ais523> it should have just hardcoded the "2014"
02:01:38 <shachaf> `cat bin/2015
02:01:38 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
02:01:44 <shachaf> `` ls -l bin/201{4,5}
02:01:45 <HackEgo> ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 79 Oct 28 2016 bin/2014 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 80 Oct 28 2016 bin/2015
02:01:49 <shachaf> Hmm.
02:01:57 <ais523> `perl 'system "bin/2014" "2017"'
02:01:58 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "'system "bin/2014" "2017"'": No such file or directory
02:02:04 <ais523> `perl-e 'system "bin/2014" "2017"'
02:02:05 <HackEgo> No output.
02:02:08 <ais523> `perl-e system "bin/2014" "2017"
02:02:09 <HackEgo> String found where operator expected at -e line 1, near ""bin/2014" "2017"" \ (Missing operator before "2017"?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near ""bin/2014" "2017"" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
02:02:11 <shachaf> `doag bin/2014
02:02:17 <HackEgo> 5227:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> sed -i \'s/2014/$(basename "$0")/\' bin/2014 \ 5219:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` chmod +x bin/2014 \ 5218:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "fi" >> bin/2014 \ 5217:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "then echo \\"Hello, world!\\"" >> bin/2014 \ 5216:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "if [ \\$(date +%Y) = \\"2014\\" ]" >> bin/2014 \ 5215:2014-12-3
02:02:22 <shachaf> `doag bin/2015
02:02:23 <fizzie> ais523: I didn't even know we were discussing making a golfing site.
02:02:28 <HackEgo> 6472:2015-12-31 <oerjän> revert \ 6471:2015-12-31 <izaber̈a> ` sed -i s/!// bin/2015 \ 5231:2015-01-02 <oerjän> ` cp bin/201{4,5}; sed -i \'s/=/!=/\' bin/2015 \ 5230:2015-01-02 <oerjän> rm bin/2015 \ 5229:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> ` ln bin/2014 bin/2015 \ 5228:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> rm bin/2015 \ 5226:2015-01-02 <oerjän> ` cp bin/201{4,5}; sed
02:02:35 <ais523> fizzie: we did a couple of times, I'm not sure if you were there at the time
02:02:42 <shachaf> fizzie: I think we were mostly discussing how we wouldn't do it.
02:02:49 <fizzie> What shachaf said.
02:02:57 <shachaf> You participated saying you wouldn't do it, if I remember correctly.
02:03:08 <fizzie> Yes, though I don't think ais523 was here at *that* time.
02:03:42 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017"
02:03:43 <HackEgo> No output.
02:03:52 <shachaf> Is your code golf site going to support multiple metrics to optimize?
02:03:55 <ais523> hmm, I finally got the right syntax, but it still doesn't work? probably the path is wrong
02:04:02 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $@
02:04:03 <HackEgo> Died at -e line 1.
02:04:06 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $!
02:04:07 <HackEgo> Died at -e line 1.
02:04:16 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $?
02:04:16 <shachaf> You can measure things other than program length.
02:04:17 <HackEgo> 0 at -e line 1.
02:04:26 <ais523> OK, Perl, now you're just screwing with me
02:04:35 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/2014"} "2017"
02:04:36 <HackEgo> 0
02:05:07 <ais523> `` basename "2017"
02:05:08 <HackEgo> 2017
02:05:25 <ais523> this is normally the point at which I'd attach a debugger but that's kind-of hard in HackEgo
02:06:24 <shachaf> `runc execl("bin/2014", "2017", NULL);
02:06:25 <HackEgo> No output.
02:06:37 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/nonexistent-executable"} "2017"
02:06:38 <HackEgo> ​-1
02:06:50 <ais523> OK, so it is finding the executable
02:06:55 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/2014"} "bin/2017"
02:06:56 <HackEgo> 0
02:07:18 <shachaf> `` echo $'#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nprint sys.argv\n' > tmp/args && chmod +x tmp/args
02:07:19 <HackEgo> No output.
02:07:26 <shachaf> `runc execl("tmp/args", "2017", NULL);
02:07:27 <HackEgo> No output.
02:07:32 <shachaf> `runc execl("/hackenv/tmp/args", "2017", NULL);
02:07:33 <HackEgo> No output.
02:07:46 <shachaf> `tmp/args abc
02:07:47 <HackEgo> ​['/hackenv/tmp/args', 'abc']
02:08:15 <shachaf> `perl-e print system {"pwd"} "pwd"
02:08:15 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv \ 0
02:08:23 <fizzie> Pet nitpicking opportunity: that should be (char *)NULL.
02:08:40 <shachaf> thx tdh
02:08:45 <fizzie> niwh
02:08:54 <ais523> fizzie: I misread "Pet" as "Perl", and tried to figure out how that could possibly hep
02:08:55 <shachaf> `? niwh
02:08:56 <HackEgo> niwh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:08:56 <ais523> *help
02:09:00 <shachaf> no it wasn't helpful
02:09:01 <shachaf> ?
02:09:13 <ais523> Downgoat: as you can see, this channel tends to get sidetracked fairly easily
02:09:41 <shachaf> `runc execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL);
02:09:42 <HackEgo> No output.
02:09:42 <fizzie> shachaf: The intention was "no, it wouldn't help", I think.
02:10:07 <shachaf> fizzie: Maybe you can use your C lawyer skills to figure out what's going wrong there?
02:10:30 <Downgoat> ais523: idk I lost track like 10 minutes ago
02:10:38 <fizzie> There's no automatic main wrapping or any other fancitude with `runc.
02:10:45 <shachaf> Oh.
02:10:54 <shachaf> I must be thinking of another command or another bot.
02:10:56 <fizzie> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL); }
02:10:57 <HackEgo> No output.
02:10:59 <fizzie> ...
02:11:04 <fizzie> Oh, I missed a {.
02:11:09 <fizzie> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:12 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
02:11:17 <fizzie> Feel free to carry on.
02:11:33 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("bin/2014", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:34 <HackEgo> No output.
02:11:43 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("tmp/args", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:43 <HackEgo> ​['tmp/args']
02:11:59 <ais523> maybe the current bin/2014 wouldn't work even in 2014?
02:12:06 <ais523> `date +%Y
02:12:07 <HackEgo> 2017
02:12:30 <ais523> `2015
02:12:31 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
02:12:39 <ais523> hmm, that implies it's probably working
02:12:43 <shachaf> Oh, it's because it's Python, isn't it.
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02:13:49 <ais523> ?
02:14:06 <shachaf> I bet the Python interpreter is doing something to mess up argv[0]
02:14:31 <shachaf> `` echo $'#include <stdio.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) { while (*argv) { puts(*argv++); } }\n' > /tmp/args.c && gcc -o tmp/args /tmp/args.c
02:14:32 <HackEgo> No output.
02:14:47 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("tmp/args", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:14:47 <HackEgo> 2017
02:14:51 <shachaf> That's better.
02:15:15 <shachaf> `cat bin/2014
02:15:15 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
02:15:23 <fizzie> "If bash is invoked with a file of commands, $0 is set to the name of that file."
02:15:35 <shachaf> Ah, I was about to make a shell script to test that behavior.
02:15:43 <ais523> fizzie: aha
02:15:47 <fizzie> That might apply also if it's invoked "with a file of commands" via "#!".
02:15:52 <ais523> yes, it would I thiink
02:15:54 <ais523> *think
02:16:37 <shachaf> ais523: What would be interesting to optimize other than byte count?
02:16:47 <shachaf> Speed and memory usage are a bit passé
02:17:29 <ais523> shachaf: the most interesting non-pure-golf problems are either optimizing some property of the source related but not identical to bytecount (number of unique characters is a common one, typically won by Unary or Lenguage)
02:18:01 <ais523> and challenges where your program has to work in as many ways as possible (e.g. run in as many languages as possible), often with a size limit or hybrid scoring
02:18:06 <ais523> radiation-hardening is fun too but kind-of niche
02:18:08 <shachaf> whoa, I expected you to say "optimising"
02:18:25 <ais523> shachaf: I've completely given up on -ise versus -ize
02:18:34 <shachaf> Radiation-hardening sounds like fun.
02:18:41 <ais523> like, I don't know which one's meant to be British English and which one's meant to be American English
02:18:45 <ais523> or if they're both both, or what
02:18:51 <ais523> nobody seems to know or care any more
02:19:01 <ais523> and it's mostly only a problem when it comes to naming identifiers, because you have to be consistent
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02:35:52 <ais523> huh, I just realised that I can hear my spam filter working
02:36:11 <ais523> I heard some sounds from the hard disk and thought "huh, I must have received an email"
02:36:16 <ais523> and the notification popped up a few seconds later
02:37:52 <shachaf> Your hard disk still makes sounds?
02:37:58 <shachaf> how quaint
02:38:35 <ais523> the nice thing about rotational hard drives is that you can get a huge amount of storage for a small price
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02:56:41 <fizzie> Hmm. I was reading HMRC guidance, and it seems to me that esolangs.org would fall under the "charitable purposes" category.
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02:57:34 <fizzie> (The thing about HMRC-recognised charities is, donations to them are eligible for a thing called Gift Aid.)
02:57:58 <ais523> fizzie: it has to be explicitly registered as a charity, IIRC
02:58:07 <ais523> which probably comes with a number of legal requirements
02:58:32 <ais523> I think you could probably make the case that it's a charity, but the legal overhead for actually setting it up might well be too great
02:58:58 <shachaf> fizzie: What about your employer's donation matching?
02:59:35 <fizzie> You don't need to register with the Commission unless the yearly income of the charity exceeds £5000, or it's structured as a company.
02:59:46 <ais523> also I think gift aid would only be helpful from brits
03:00:07 <fizzie> You would need to apply for recognition from HMRC, but that seemed more lightweight.
03:00:11 <ais523> because the point is that you're donating part of your income to charity, so the government "matches" that with the tax revenue from the same amount of income
03:00:28 <ais523> and that implies that the income had british tax paid on it in the first place
03:01:40 <fizzie> Sure, I was mostly thinking about my own donations.
03:02:50 <fizzie> "To be a charitable aim for the public benefit, education must be capable of being ‘advanced’. This means to promote, sustain and increase individual and collective knowledge and understanding of specific areas of study, skills and expertise. -- The types of charities that are capable of advancing education include: information media such as the internet, --"
03:05:01 <fizzie> There was some bit about how it shouldn't benefit a "narrow group" (but I don't think that was meant to rule out things most people simply aren't interested in), and a bunch of restrictions of what a charity can do.
03:14:28 <fizzie> https://www.gov.uk/setting-up-charity/structures -- the last two don't have a corporate structure (so can't e.g. employ people or enter contracts, and the trustees keep personal responsibility), but as far as I can tell are still eligible for HMRC recognition.
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03:19:10 <fizzie> Though to be fair, while the wiki might qualify, fitting something like HackEgo under the "charitable purposes" label would be a bit of a stretch.
03:21:26 <fizzie> shachaf: For that, I would need to nominate the organisation first.
03:22:23 <fizzie> (I think it would be eligible per the guidelines.)
03:23:38 <fizzie> Also, another thing I've not been able to find out is the minimum number of trustees. (They need to be "fit and proper", to boot.)
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03:34:18 <doesthiswork> if you have to choose a name for the organization. fhtagn makes an excellent acronym
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03:48:45 <Downgoat> ais523: would voting on posts/questions be a good idea?
03:49:32 <ais523> Downgoat: well some questions are better than others, but the voting tends not to work out that well at PPCG
03:49:50 <ais523> normally questions get upvoted if they're easy, and although that's a popular type of question, it's not one that's universally liked
03:49:59 <ais523> perhaps it'd be better to have voting on categories rather than a single vote
03:50:19 <ais523> like, maybe you upvote a tag really high on a question if you think the question is really interesting to people who like that tag
03:52:56 <ais523> out of my two highest-upvoted questions, one is really good, the other fairly dubious, and I can't remember offhand which is higher
03:53:38 <ais523> good one's at 171, bad one at 89
03:53:44 <ais523> so at least the votes worked in that case
03:53:47 <ais523> it took a while, though!
03:55:07 <Downgoat> btw do you have any reccomendations on how question could be categorized beyond tags
03:55:13 <zzo38> I think I have read somewhere (I don't know if I remembered correctly?) that "-ize" is American (and I think also Canadian), while both "-ise" and "-ize" is British. I am not sure though.
03:55:32 <shachaf> i have seen it advertized
03:55:33 <ais523> Downgoat: ideally it'd help people find the sort of questions they wanted, which is based on solution techniques
03:55:59 <ais523> and that can be very hard to figure out in advance
03:56:02 <ais523> so there might not be a good solution
03:56:29 <ais523> you can often guess in advance whether a winning solution is more algorithmic, more declarative, or more about microgolfing, though
03:56:45 <Downgoat> maybe like 'bookmark' or 'star' posts you personally want to reference
03:56:55 <ais523> (there's also [kolmogorov-complexity] which is very different from the rest of golfing, but it's already self-contained enough as it is)
03:57:06 <ais523> SE has a starring feature already, I (surprisingly!) have no problem with it
03:57:15 <Downgoat> that's only on Qs though
03:57:17 <shachaf> Why is kolmogolf different from other golf?
03:57:27 <zzo38> Actually "advertise" is "-ise" everywhere I think. I just looked it up in Wiktionary; it says "advertize" is archaic.
03:58:37 <ais523> shachaf: having long constant strings as an important part of the solution is normally looked down on in golfing as the question becomes about optimizing those rather than about the rest of the question
03:58:55 <ais523> and compression in that form can require some highly specialised techniques and things outside the normal goal of the language
03:59:08 <ais523> normally you're trying to spot and exploit patterns, rather than work out a clever algorithm
03:59:29 <shachaf> Isn't all golfing about Kolmogorov complexity?
03:59:46 <ais523> shachaf: well, sort of, but kolmogolf is specifically about when you have a fixed output to produce
03:59:59 <ais523> and the output chosen is normally ascii-art or the like, something with a repetitive but not uniform structure
04:00:15 <ais523> I guess you could think of regular golf being about writing functions, which run with no exceptions
04:00:22 <ais523> and kolmogolf about encoding the exceptions
04:02:13 <ais523> I'm not a huge fan of kolmogolf
04:02:24 <Downgoat> ^
04:02:39 <shachaf> How often is the most efficient algorithm implemented as eval + kolmogolf?
04:02:49 <ais523> I like reverse-kolmogolf but got disillusioned with it because I normally took much longer to write my answers than everyone else so didn't get upvotes even though they were IMO way more interesting (and shorter) than the other answers
04:02:58 <ais523> shachaf: it mostly only happens in PHP for some reason
04:03:15 <ais523> not on PPCG, because PHP isn't that popular there and because people don't often think of it
04:03:21 <ais523> but all the time on anagolf
04:04:42 <ais523> here's an example of reverse-kolmogolf (full disclosure: this is one of my questions): https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/105303
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04:08:49 <ais523> basically you have to recognise a large number of large inputs, but you know the input will be one of those, so you only have to focus on the differences and don't have to recognise the whole thing
04:09:20 <shachaf> Now that you deleted your account, you no longer post referral links, which I like.
04:09:26 <shachaf> I can't stand stackexchange referral links.
04:10:13 <ais523> shachaf: I got massively downvoted for complaining about some badges being seen by some people as a negative
04:10:38 <shachaf> I remember.
04:10:41 <ais523> I mentioned the badge for people visiting your referral links as an example of that, thinking about you when I did
04:11:04 <ais523> that said, if you can get the badge for yourself, you can just as easily inflict it on someone else by editing the link, as there's no authentication on it
04:11:05 <shachaf> Badge of shame.
04:11:11 <ais523> and the badge is all it does
04:11:28 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you have any badges of shame?
04:13:31 <ais523> the badges are really counterproductive in many ways, though, for example the fact that you got a badge for filling out your profile incentivised me to not do it
04:13:43 <ais523> because I could always choose to do it later but I could never get rid of the badge
04:13:50 <shachaf> Yes, gamification is scow
04:14:03 <shachaf> scowification
04:14:24 <ais523> I thought I'd be OK for it for something that was actually a game
04:14:27 <ais523> but I wasn't, the incentives are all wrong
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07:21:25 <zzo38> If you want to store a PC text screen (or anything that is close enough) with variable width and height, one format to use would be MZM, I think is work for such purpose.
07:22:36 <zzo38> The format is same like PC video memory but with a header that specifies the width and height.
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07:30:19 <variable> zzo38: linky?
07:30:29 <variable> google doesn't show anything :\
07:32:03 <zzo38> Here is a description that I wrote myself: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/mzm.form
07:32:43 <zzo38> MegaZeux is capable of reading and writing this format, although it supports a superset of what I described. The subset I described is a subset which can be suitable for programs other than MegaZeux too.
07:33:22 <variable> ty
07:33:49 <variable> unrelated: I've long wanted to write my own video *container* format - though certainly not an encoding
07:34:01 <variable> lots of features I want that nothing seems to provide
07:34:03 <variable> :\
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07:35:57 <zzo38> What is it you wanted? I also made up such a container format, based on Ogg, but it is a bit different in order to avoid some of the problems of Ogg without adding the problems of other formats too, and without adding too much complexity.
07:36:41 <variable> the main thing I want is layers
07:37:17 <zzo38> Can you perhaps elaborate on that?
07:37:20 <variable> for example, sending a video, and an overlay with say bounding boxes, etc
07:37:25 <variable> (I will, in one moment)
07:37:40 <variable> the second thing I want is transformations-in-container as a layer
07:37:59 <variable> zzo38: so, lets say I have a standard video, but I want to be able to block out parts of it as a user-selectable action
07:38:06 <variable> or I want to insert shapes on top
07:38:32 <variable> or enable "high contrast mode" or "distorted mode" or whatever the change the underlying video is
07:38:39 <variable> i.e., I want composable videos
07:38:54 <zzo38> OK, although that seem then the layer codec may be need to add on.
07:39:07 <zzo38> This is my design: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/glogg
07:39:20 * variable opens
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07:41:07 <zzo38> Relation fields in the control block could be used to specify relations between different streams (whether with same or different codecs) if needed, so you could make the relation to the overlay with the video, or whatever.
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07:56:23 <Challenger5> Does anybody remember something about a lang with a really weird type system?
07:57:01 <Challenger5> As in, there were like 1-2 builtins that were so polymorphic they functioned as the standard library
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08:05:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ModanShogi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53363 * Zzo38 * (+469) Created page with "The example program is not a valid sequence of moves in a shogi game (whether the pieces start in the normal starting position for the game or otherwise). Both players have a..."
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09:52:02 <b_jonas> :-(
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17:28:59 <b_jonas> So I ordered a new mobile phone. But when choosing it, I found that Nokia is no longer making mobile phones like they used to, so
17:30:16 <b_jonas> even though my approx. seven years old Nokia mobile phone has non-flat keypad, flash for the camera, and a camera resolution greater than 640x480, I absolutely can't buy a new Nokia mobile phone satisfying those three criteria at the same time.
17:32:35 <b_jonas> The Nokia 216 has non-flat keypad, camera flash, but (two) 640x480 pixel cameras.
17:33:29 <david3x3x3> yeah, cell phone form factors lack a lot of variety recently
17:33:43 <david3x3x3> it's almost impossible to find a good qwerty phone these days
17:33:52 <b_jonas> The Nokia 230 has large resolution main camera and camera flash, but a flat keypad.
17:34:56 <b_jonas> Nokia 130 apparently doesn't have a camera, or at least they're hiding it well.
17:37:20 <b_jonas> The Nokia 3310 has non-flat keypad, high-res camera, camera flash, ... wait, why didn't I buy that one?
17:37:48 <b_jonas> I guess it just looks bad in genera
17:37:54 <b_jonas> I dunno
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18:54:31 <Roger9> "A function that returns the current continuation. When this continuation is invoked, an array of the arguments passed will be substituted and returned by the function instead." Is there a function like this already (well, has someone thought of it yet)? I can seem to remember reading about it, but IDK.
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19:00:13 <zzo38> There is "law of excluded middle" continuation; is it similar to what you intended?
19:06:05 <Roger9> I'm going to check, but yes, that is what I remember reading about.
19:08:10 <b_jonas> Roger9: um, I don't understand your question. is that just an ordinar call-cc with a trivial wrapper around it, like (lambda (f) (let-values ((a (call/cc f))) a))) in scheme?
19:08:41 <b_jonas> a vararg wrapper that is
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19:09:55 <Roger9> Uh... not sure.
19:10:21 <b_jonas> Roger9: um, try to give an example to clarify your definition then?
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19:10:57 <b_jonas> also no, the above code doesn't wrok
19:11:09 <b_jonas> I think
19:11:21 <b_jonas> how the heck did call/cc work in scheme, let me try to understand this
19:12:00 <b_jonas> maybe it works, I dunno
19:14:07 <b_jonas> (lambda (f) (call/cc (lambda (e) (f (lambda a (apply e a)))))) might be cleaner
19:14:22 <b_jonas> no wait, that's wrong
19:14:47 <b_jonas> (lambda (f) (call/cc (lambda (e) (f (lambda a (e a)))))) might be cleaner, ignore the previous one
19:16:43 <zzo38> I have this Haskell code I wrote from before: lemCC = callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left)); The other way around define also is possible: callCC x = lemCC >>= either return x;
19:16:56 <Roger9> http://paste.ubuntu.com/25962691/
19:17:31 <zzo38> (I don't know what would be the corresponding way in Scheme)
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19:22:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: the way I interpreted the question involves a vararg function, so it probably doesn't relate to that Haskell thing you typed above
19:22:42 <b_jonas> but I don't understand what that Haskell thing you typed does
19:27:30 <zzo38> :t callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left))
19:27:32 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => m (Either a (a -> m c))
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19:32:07 <zzo38> It is a law of excluded middle continuation.
20:01:25 <b_jonas> `ftoc 110
20:01:27 <HackEgo> 110.00°F = 43.33°C
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23:42:42 <shachaf> `5 w
23:42:47 <HackEgo> 1/2:adopted//"Oh lord, we've adopted another one." (about Emily) => Marten realizes what kind of webcomic he lives in in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298 \ fugal//Fugals are fictitious flower parts. \ lachine//Lachine is an unholy portal to China, closely guarded from Ëvil by Roujo. \ fish//Come and dance and love the fis
23:42:52 <shachaf> `n
23:42:53 <HackEgo> 2/2:h! Mister Disco summoned it. \ space//Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it.
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09:00:36 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6IhK6x_gDo
09:00:39 <\oren\> crazy how he can interleave two weapons like that
09:00:50 <\oren\> duel weilding
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12:08:25 <b_jonas> Question. Is there a practical cheap source of something coke bottles, in that it's a liquid container with volume around 0.5 liter or 1 liter that closes airtight even after mechanical stress, but that are different enough from coke bottles that I can put poisonous liquids in them and be sure it won't be mistaken for a drinkable liquid?
12:10:30 <b_jonas> Alternately, a practical and cheap way to mark coke bottles somehow for such a purpose, such that the marking is durable to mechanical stress and washing with water and soap and alcohol and rubbing (but not necessarily to washing with petrol or other solvents)?
12:17:22 <b_jonas> The existance of such a thing might be a logical impossibility, because such a container would automatically be a practical way for storing drinks, and so would actually be used for storing drinks, and so can be confused with drinks.
12:17:30 <garit> b_jonas: i think you are required to add smelly/bitter components to poisons to avoid accidental consumption
12:18:29 <b_jonas> garit: yes, that's a possible solution too, but in that case, is there some practical and cheap bitter component that I can add at home?
12:18:36 <garit> b_jonas: and there are thousands of bottle types, just check what productions you have local (i do have some bottles like milk bottles production nearby)
12:19:56 <garit> b_jonas: naoh even in low concentration is very unpleasant to taste, but check what is added usually
12:20:31 <Taneb> b_jonas: why do you have so much poison and what are you doing with it
12:20:37 <b_jonas> garit: there are lots of bottle types, but many aren't sold empty (I am actually buying cheap bottled water to get PET bottles for example) and ones that are sold with soap or milk are practically impossible to clean the original contents off them.
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12:21:13 <Taneb> b_jonas: you might be able to find the bottle manufacturer
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12:21:29 <garit> b_jonas: check manufacturers who do sell them empty for business, order a pallet of bottles, might be cheaper even if you wont use every bottle
12:21:38 <b_jonas> Taneb: household cleaning agents, which I want to package to a more durable or smaller container for traveling
12:22:22 <garit> cleaning agents i did see are nasty in smell already
12:23:14 <b_jonas> garit: natrium hydroxide? seriously? I mean, that one is more scary than almost all the things I have at my house already. I don't know what it's like in small quantity though.
12:23:22 <b_jonas> Do they seriously use natrium hydroxide for this?
12:25:11 <garit> b_jonas: as liquid cleaning agents? I guess not
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12:25:45 <garit> but at least it definitely makes ingestion almost impossible, hehe =)
12:26:03 <b_jonas> garit: some cleaning agents are nasty in smell, but some aren't. examples are (a) dishwasher rinse aid, which doesn't have a specific smell, and also is as viscous as water, (b) isopropanol, which seems to be cheaper to buy in laboratory clean version than as a mixture cleaning product.
12:26:19 <b_jonas> I don't know what dishwasher rinse aid tastes like, it might already be bitter.
12:26:29 <b_jonas> And I'm also not sure it's poisonous
12:26:40 <b_jonas> but I still don't want to get it mixed with a drink
12:26:53 <garit> I did taste the isopropanol and it was the worst thing ever. But i guess it already had some stuff added in it for a bad taste
12:27:15 <b_jonas> garit: yes, there are denatured versions with bitter additives, but the pure one doesn't taste too bad
12:27:24 <b_jonas> at least I think it doesn't, I'm not willing to try
12:28:20 <b_jonas> Heck, even if the thing isn't poisonous, I'd like a nice durable way to label bottles to distinguish between different similar liquids.
12:28:53 <b_jonas> I use sticky paper for that, but for some things like soap bottles I use in a shower that doesn't work, the label peels off quickly
12:28:58 <garit> stuff that is used in pepper spray can be bought as a powder, and if person isnt mexican or indian, he wont be able to tolerant this
12:29:31 <garit> but proper stuff thst is used works in very small concentration, so is cheaper (because you need just a droplet)
12:29:40 <b_jonas> I can use permanent marker on bottles, but for isopropanol in particular that won't work, because isopropanol solves the permanent marker ink, and even without that it sometimes smudges on some bottle surfaces.
12:30:37 <b_jonas> Pepper spray powder? Does that leave a residue? Some of the bitter additives for alcohol-based cleaners live a solid residue, which is very annoying and sometimes defeats the whole purpose of using an alcohol-based cleaner.
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12:31:27 <b_jonas> Plus, I think pepper spray powder might irritate the skin more than an alcohol-based disinfectant.
12:32:02 <garit> you can dilute it more
12:32:30 <garit> it irritates the skin only in defence-grade concentration (10% mass)
12:33:34 <garit> about 1% by mass is what some of the peppers are, but most people cant tolerate that. And 0.1% by mass is what some cultures may tolerate, so probably too few
12:34:27 <b_jonas> garit: hmm... still doesn't seem like a good idea if I want to use the isopropanol as a disinfectant, but can work if I only use it for whiteboard cleaning. would it leave a residue on the whiteboard?
12:35:02 <b_jonas> Or a residue on the cleaning rag, if I use reusable textile for that?
12:35:42 <garit> yes, 1% is quite a lot of residuals
12:36:04 <garit> and its a sugar-like component, so it might be sticky
12:37:25 <garit> If you want residual-free then you either need very low concentration (professional stuff), or quickly evaporating stuff (like acetone) - but acetone-like stuff will leave the mixture with time and it wont be so unpleasant to taste
12:37:54 <b_jonas> Actually this has turned to a specific other sub-question that I could ask on a forum: what cheap practical additive I could put in isopropanol (between 50% to 90%) that makes it have a bad taste but I can still use it as skin disinfectant, cleaning glasses, help drying bottles after washing, or cleaning whiteboard.
12:38:22 <b_jonas> It mustn't leave a residue after evaporating, and mustn't irritate the skin or even open wounds more than the isopropanol itself does.
12:38:41 <garit> Cleaning glasses would need no residuals at all, even 0.1% or so will be noticed i think
12:39:01 <b_jonas> Acetone... hmm, that might work, because it's definitely cheap and evaporates well. Is that bad tasting?
12:39:18 <b_jonas> oh. "wont be so unpleasant to taste".
12:39:26 <garit> Its not that bad in taste but it is so dense in smell that its hard to breath
12:39:36 <b_jonas> garit: exactly, and helping bottles dry also requires no residude.
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12:39:56 <garit> and people tend not to drink stuff that is so unpleasant to breathe
12:40:15 <b_jonas> if by "leaving the mixture in time" only means it evaporates quickly, that's fine for isopropanol, because that also evaporates quickly
12:40:44 <garit> Ah, i remembered now, for methanol government used kerosene and gasoline
12:41:05 <b_jonas> "and people tend not to drink stuff that is so unpleasant to breathe" => I dunno. I keep hearing of accidents about people drinking liquors (esp. pálinka) from a mineral water bottle accidentally, when they consume a large amount before realizing it's not water.
12:41:07 <garit> kerosene is a bit slow to evaporate. But gasoline is a bit faster
12:41:30 <b_jonas> gasoline doesn't have a bad smell or bad taste in small amounts I think
12:41:40 <garit> but you can add more
12:41:55 <garit> its very bitter and has distinguishable smell
12:42:05 <garit> at least in ~10% concentration
12:42:20 <garit> and leaves no residuals, evaporates a bit faster than isopropanol
12:42:29 <garit> and is about as irritating as isopropanol
12:42:31 <b_jonas> hmm... interesting. although then it might solve things I don't want to solve when used for cleaning, although for the specific examples I gave that's not a problem
12:43:31 <garit> You can simply buy denaturated methanol and add some % of it, hoping that concentration of denaturat is enough
12:44:39 <garit> substances like aromatic oils, especially cheap ones are often disgusting , btw =) can biy those too. But their smell is way too strong
12:44:49 <b_jonas> Wait, that reminds me, what's the price and composition of these denatured alcohol mixtures sold as coolant for cars?
12:44:57 <b_jonas> Could that be usable as a cleaning agent as is?
12:45:07 <b_jonas> Or does that have methanol?
12:45:33 <garit> I think its ethylene glycole + proper denaturat
12:46:02 <garit> ethylene glycole by itself is similar to isopropyl , but isn't as good
12:46:42 <b_jonas> hmm. is it watered up much?
12:46:43 <garit> Price is about the same as gasoline, may be even cheaper
12:46:49 <garit> about half water
12:47:06 <b_jonas> Might work if I mix it with the isopropanol.
12:47:30 <b_jonas> I'll have to look this up.
12:47:41 <garit> not by the ethylene glycol though. You will be just using that small fraction of proper densturat
12:48:04 <garit> in this case you can just buy proper denaturat. Will be cheaper
12:48:34 <b_jonas> Yes, but I can mix a large enough amount in the isopropanol, like 25% of car coolant with 75% isopropanol.
12:48:44 <b_jonas> Where do I buy the denaturant?
12:49:04 <b_jonas> I could ask in the chemical agent store or the pharmacy or something.
12:49:06 <garit> Ebay? they sell almost everything
12:49:33 <b_jonas> They sell almost everything but won't ship fire hazard liquids, which some of these are.
12:49:55 <b_jonas> They certainly shouldn't ship isopropanol or gasolene in mail.
12:50:11 <b_jonas> That's why this sort of stuff is hard to get in first place.
12:50:28 <b_jonas> I can't just order cheap denatured isopropanol from China.
12:52:19 <garit> Pyridine is used in densturated alcohol
12:54:12 <b_jonas> Pyridine?
12:55:53 <garit> And aniline
12:56:31 <garit> Both of them smell fishy, which might be a bad idea for cleaning agent
12:57:20 <b_jonas> Also, for labeling bottles, I wonder about these sticky strips that are printed with a handhelp heat printer they sell for cheap but with expensive tapes, like Dymo. I hear they stick well. I wonder if they'd still well enough to a coke bottle.
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12:58:09 <b_jonas> garit: I think the point is that the alcohol or bleach based cleaning agent can smell bad, if that smell evaporates about as quickly as the alcohol or bleach itself.
12:58:22 <garit> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterant - 5 more things (not as smelly, but bitter)
12:58:47 <b_jonas> Because you will leave the cleaning agent to just evaporate in those cases, and while it's not evaporated, the smell should be there as a warning.
12:59:25 <b_jonas> Sort of like for the bad smelling agent for city methane gas.
13:00:03 <b_jonas> So a bad smell is a good idea for these even if you don't try to drink them.
13:01:05 <garit> all of the above dont evaporate (leave residuals)
13:01:20 <b_jonas> garit: the above what? the bitterants?
13:01:28 <b_jonas> the pyridine and aniline?
13:01:42 <garit> No,those two do evaporate. The 5 of bitter agents
13:02:23 <b_jonas> ok
13:02:41 <b_jonas> I guess for a car coolant liquid that is not a problem
13:03:00 <garit> But they are bitter in 0.08ppm. Layer will be invisible even on glasses
13:04:31 <garit> layer is invisible if its thinner than 100nm or so. For 1ppm this allow to evaporate 100mm of liquid (usual evaporation thickness is 100um or so). so up to 100ppm is safe (can't be seen even on glasses)
13:05:30 <garit> it is still can change the feel when you touch it and increase the speed of dust accumulation, but people wont notice it
13:06:21 <b_jonas> Wait, that's an idea. I could use bleach bottles! They're already used for poisonous stuff, and the bleach is easier to clean from them than soap or oily stuff from their bottles, I already buy bottles of bleach for cleaning, and some of them are durable enough.
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13:07:15 <garit> If you need more than 100 bottles - call people who actually do the bleach bottles and buy a pallet of them =)
13:07:35 <b_jonas> Lighter fluid bottles might be even better, but I don't generally buy lighter fluid so I'd have to buy them normally.
13:07:45 <b_jonas> s/normally/specfically/
13:08:30 <b_jonas> It's not a perfect solution, but marking a bleach bottle might be better than marking a coke bottle.
13:08:56 <b_jonas> I wonder if anywhere's selling cheap bleach in half-liter bottles instead of one liter bottles.
13:09:13 <b_jonas> But even a one litter bottle is fine.
13:09:48 <b_jonas> And there's these ugly gray square-shaped bleach bottles that nobody will confuse with drink bottles.
13:10:08 <b_jonas> I still have to mark them so people don't confuse them with bleach, but it's better.
13:10:13 <garit> Kids are stupid enough to drink it anyways
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13:11:18 <b_jonas> Yes, but kids will also try to eat the dishwasher tablets and stuff like that. It's a much harder problem to kid-proof things.
13:11:31 <b_jonas> My apartment is not small-kid-proof.
13:11:51 <garit> Thats why detergents are added =) to make it kid proof
13:13:11 <b_jonas> And note that some bleach bottles have these safety caps, the ones that are supposedly kid-proof, although I don't think they really prove difficulty for a kid, that open if you press down or press on the side or something.
13:13:27 <b_jonas> Not all bleach bottles have these though.
13:13:37 <garit> Its hard to open those though
13:13:41 <b_jonas> (My vitamin bottles have such caps too.)
13:13:46 <garit> i mean physically, kids might not be strong enough
13:14:03 <garit> or smart enough to figure out where to press
13:14:23 <garit> so the strongest and smartest kids only will die ^=^
13:14:24 <b_jonas> garit: I can do that with a coke bottle too. If I screw the cap hard enough, then my mother can't open it.
13:14:44 <b_jonas> But doing that could make the bottle less durable, so I try not to.
13:15:59 <b_jonas> (It makes sense for the vitamin bottle, it's not easy to overdose those vitamins, but a kid eating the whole bottle of 100 pills would be a bad idea.)
13:18:08 <b_jonas> Also, note to self, re-ask these questions when ais523 arrives.
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17:11:21 <b_jonas> Hmm, in fact I could use bottles of rinse aid. That's probably easy enough to clean, and they come in small bottles.
17:11:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I wanted to ask you something, but I have to afk now for like three hours, so I can't.
17:12:04 <ais523> OK, ask me later then
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20:03:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53364&oldid=46742 * Zseri * (-148) improve c code
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20:44:57 <wob_jonas> Ok, so I think the best solution so far for isopropanol is this. Rinse with water then dry an empty bottle of dishwasher rinse aid. Mark it as "FIRE HAZARD POISON" with colored nail polish, as well as put a more detailed (but easier to peel) sticky paper label written with pen, and possibly also a strip of colored PVC insulation tape around the bot
20:44:57 <wob_jonas> tle.
20:45:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: you're still here? good. here's my question
20:45:25 <ais523> not "still", I just rejoined
20:46:13 <ais523> but yes, ask your question
20:46:58 <wob_jonas> I want to take say 0.2 liters of isopropanol to my office for cleaning whiteboards. What is the right container for this? It should be watertight, should clearly not look as something that can be drunk safely, these properties should be durable to mechanical stress and cleaning the exterior with soap water and rubbing with a sponge,
20:47:22 <ais523> I'm not an expert on isopropanol
20:47:22 <wob_jonas> and should also be durable to the isopropanol itself (which is why writing with a sharpie isn't an option).
20:47:31 <ais523> you'd be better off asking someone who knows about it
20:47:56 <wob_jonas> Like a pharmacist? I should probably do that.
20:48:28 <ais523> however, the easier solution might be to buy a dedicated whiteboard cleaner spray; although the ones I'm aware of tend to damage whiteboards in such a way that you can't remove ink from them without the spray, presumably to persuade you to buy more spray
20:48:53 <wob_jonas> eww
20:49:39 <ais523> why is it so hard to clean your whiteboards, anyway? with a good whiteboard and whiteboard pen, pressure is enough, and in extreme cases water
20:49:41 <wob_jonas> Actually the easier solution would be to buy denatured alcohol, which is much less poisonous, and so can be put to an ordinary coke bottle.
20:49:57 <ais523> I wouldn't recommend cleaning the whiteboard with poison
20:50:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's easy to clean if you clean it immediately, but hard to clean if you leave the marks on for weeks, and in any case, cleaning leaves a lot of residue that becomes ugly after a while.
20:51:09 <wob_jonas> Why is cleaning it with poison a bad idea?
20:51:22 <ais523> because it puts poison on a surface that people might plausibly touch by mistake
20:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> it'll presumably evaporate readily
20:51:33 <int-e> hah. http://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/3SkullsAprill.jpg
20:51:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: then you have poison in the air
20:52:15 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, so you should make sure it's well ventilated
20:52:15 <wob_jonas> Touching is safe. Isopropanol is like bleach, it evaporates quickly and is safe after that. I clean my floor with bleach, and if you open the windows and wait for an hour that's also safe.
20:52:24 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
20:52:35 <wob_jonas> PH: yes, open the window to let the fumes leave.
20:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> 'poison on surfaces is bad' just sounds like... ais logic
20:52:56 <int-e> http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/polishing-accessories/polish-inspection-sprays/isopropanol-alcohol-ipa-500ml/prod_818.html <-- serious version
20:52:58 <ais523> I'd say that you would at least need the container to carry the standardised warning symbols for poisonous chemicals
20:53:27 <int-e> (out of stock, but those orange warning labels look serious)
20:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> wob how did you even get the isopropanol
20:53:34 <Phantom_Hoover> what did it come in
20:53:56 <wob_jonas> PH: In a one little sized bottle. I don't want to take all of it to the office.
20:54:01 <wob_jonas> s/one little/one liter/
20:54:03 <wob_jonas> and I bought it
20:56:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: the standardized warning symbol is a good idea. that's a red diamond frame with some incomprehensible black drawing inside it.
20:57:17 <ais523> I just feel really uncomfortable discussing this sort of subject at all
20:57:23 <ais523> although, hmm
20:57:26 <ais523> give me a moment
21:00:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: should I ask about repainting the wooden window frames with the kind of paint that requires these much more poisonous aromatic solvents first, to make this sound safer in comparison?
21:01:10 <ais523> b_jonas: I happen to know a chemistry teacher, I was asking her for advice on the subject
21:01:26 <ais523> (that's why I went AFK)
21:01:48 <wob_jonas> aren't you a chemistry geek yourself?
21:02:11 <ais523> she says that she hasn't seen anyone try to use isopropanol outside the lab (and wouldn't use it in experiments), but uses acetone plus an air drier for cleaning chemicals off lab equipment, and very occasionally on whiteboards too
21:02:14 <ais523> and it has similar properties
21:02:38 <ais523> she says you mustn't let anyone drink or inhale the isopropanol
21:03:07 <ais523> presumably you have to store it somewhere that only you have access to in order to avoid it being used inappropriately by other people
21:03:15 <ais523> I'm still pretty concerned about the whole subject though
21:06:34 <wob_jonas> mustn't let anyone drink or inhale => yes, it's poisonuos
21:06:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53365&oldid=53361 * Rottytooth * (+586) suggestions about funding
21:07:18 <wob_jonas> isn't acetone worse? I can buy acetone if it works on whiteboards, but I thought it was worse, because it's similarly a fire hazard even in vapor form, it's poisonous to ingest, and solves more things than isopropanol
21:07:21 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol#Toxicology ... I can imagine worse poisons. Also "Rubbing alcohol, hand sanitizer, and disinfecting pads typically contain a 60–70% solution of isopropyl alcohol in water." (dilution affects toxicity but will happen anyway *if* you ingest the stuff.)
21:07:31 <int-e> acetone is what you get if you ingest it
21:08:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: isopropanol metabolises to acetone, so they're similarly poisonous
21:09:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but I thought acetone was a more powerful solvent for household stuff, I could be wrong in that
21:10:21 <ais523> right, the reason she uses acetone is I think precisely because its a powerful solvent, she's trying to clean substantially more dangerous chemicals off glass
21:10:28 <ais523> and most of them disolve in either water or acetone
21:10:31 <wob_jonas> denatured ethanol might be better, because it's less poisonous, but has similar properties as a solvent, as in works for whiteboard cleaning, and is similar fire hazard
21:10:51 <ais523> I've used ethanol to clean permanent marker off glass myself
21:11:13 <ais523> so I guess it's in the category of chemicals I'm not afraid of
21:11:36 <wob_jonas> yes, ethanol works for that, it even lets you clean permanent marker from more rough surfaces by rubbing (it's easier to clean from glass)
21:15:04 <ais523> anyway, I'm really not an expert at this sort of thing; I think I have an A-level in chemistry but didn't score amazingly well at it
21:15:20 <wob_jonas> Ok, thanks for the help anyway.
21:16:16 <wob_jonas> I'll try to look up where I can get cheap and already denatured hand disinfectants based on alcohol or isopropanol, but so far I've found they're generally sold pretty expensive in most places.
21:16:39 <wob_jonas> Those would work as whiteboard cleaner and similar too.
21:17:08 <wob_jonas> But even then I want to figure out this bottle thing.
21:19:09 <ais523> I think storing it in a locked cabinet where only you have the key, + written warnings, + the standardised warning pictographs
21:20:17 <wob_jonas> a locked cabinet might just about be possible, but a locked cabinet for which only I have the key sounds unrealistic for the office (this isn't at home)
21:20:39 <wob_jonas> written warnings are definitely what I want, but I'm asking how I can make them durable on the bottle
21:21:10 <ais523> hmm, in my office everyone has a cabinet to which only they have the key
21:21:19 <ais523> how could you possibly keep private records and the like without that?
21:21:41 <wob_jonas> In theory I could take in a small metal casette for which only I have the key or something, but that's a bit expensive.
21:22:42 <ais523> also a bottle whose entire purpose is to contain a chemical that cleans ink off surfaces is unlikely to be able to write warnings on
21:22:50 <ais523> as they'd have too much of a chance of being rubbed off by the same chemical
21:23:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, really? Isn't only one person having the key usually impractical? Most keys have copies at different people because anyone might lose keys by accident or pickpocketing or robbing?
21:23:25 <wob_jonas> Even then, most workers at our office don't have separate lockers for which only few people have a key.
21:23:33 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, there are master keys I think
21:23:37 <ais523> but they'd be unlikely to be used
21:23:48 <ais523> I mean, you're the only person who has a key intended for genreal use
21:24:03 <wob_jonas> We have expensive equipment in lockers for which only few people have the key, plus we have the system administrators' room for which I think only the three sysadmins have the key, or perhaps one more person.
21:24:18 <wob_jonas> Also the server room for which similarly only the sysadmins have the kye.
21:24:46 <wob_jonas> I definitely don't have such a lockable closet at work, and most other co-workers don't have one either.
21:25:13 <ais523> I use mine for storing my laptop in sometimes when I go out to eat, that sort of thing
21:25:20 <ais523> (I don't store poisonous chemicals in mine)
21:25:47 <wob_jonas> I have my own desk and unlocked boxes labeled with my names where other people are unlikely to touch my belongings, and there's some personal things like my home keys that I always keep on my person at work.
21:26:44 <ais523> oh, we have something of a theft problem in our department
21:27:17 <wob_jonas> Sure, we have things stolen too, but it's mostly valuable things. My less valuable personal belongings are less likely to be stolen, and even if they are, they're cheap to replace.
21:27:36 <wob_jonas> So I wouldn't leave valuable equipment out in the open.
21:27:39 <ais523> at one point someone set off the fire alarm then started stealing things while people were evacuated, but they got caught fairly quickly because they had to use a swipe card to get through some of the doors
21:28:46 <wob_jonas> That's scary. Is that a crime even if not actually stealing anything, only intending to steal? In any case, it's a pretty bad idea.
21:29:21 <wob_jonas> I don't think anybody does that here. They just walk in open doors when nobody pays attention and remove things acting as if they have authority in case anyone watches.
21:29:23 <ais523> I don't think it's technically illegal? it's a firable offence though
21:29:55 <wob_jonas> I'm not a lawyer.
21:30:17 <ais523> interestingly, in the UK I think (not sure, not a lawyer) it's legal to take something you don't own as long as the owner doesn't need it at the time and you give it back undamaged; at least, I know it isn't theft, it might violate some other law though
21:31:11 <wob_jonas> That's definitely not the case here. We've had things disappear, not just used for a bit and returned.
21:31:23 <wob_jonas> Some of it might be accidental loss, but we believe some of it is deliberate theft.
21:31:48 <wob_jonas> I don't want to give any ideas, but the security is really terrible here, so it's easy to steal stuff.
21:32:48 <wob_jonas> Except for the stuff that is stored in the rooms that only few people have keys for and aren't left open. We have a large storage room for valuables like that, plus the server room and sysadmin's room which are even safer.
21:39:57 <wob_jonas> Meanwhile, M:tG is previewing the third un-set.
21:42:17 <ais523> yes
21:42:59 <wob_jonas> It's a pity they're releasing it just a year after the second Conspiracy set, because some of the conspiracy cards in that feel like un-cards.
21:42:59 <ais523> incidentally, it's added a new card for the "allow people to deduce the game rules purely by reading cards" deck
21:43:02 <ais523> Un sets are good for that
21:43:21 <ais523> e.g. the card that reverses the order of phases lists them all in its reminder text
21:44:23 <wob_jonas> Ah, you mean a deck that lets a future person reconstruct the rules if they don't have access to the comp rules or similar, but only to a deck of cards preserved in a durable photo or something.
21:45:01 <wob_jonas> I thought at first of a deck based on R&D's Secret Lair
21:46:22 <wob_jonas> As for cards for the deck you mean, I've been asking for a Sea's Claim with reminder text.
21:46:40 <wob_jonas> Although I must admit that I like the mountaintop boatmaker.
21:47:00 <ais523> `card-by-name Decimation Clock
21:47:02 <HackEgo> No output.
21:47:02 <wob_jonas> So maybe a Spreading Seas with reminder text instead.
21:47:08 <ais523> `card_by_name Decimation Clock
21:47:09 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: card_by_name: not found
21:47:15 <ais523> hmm, what's it called
21:47:27 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name spreading seas
21:47:28 <HackEgo> Spreading Seas \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Spreading Seas enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land is an Island. \ ZEN-C
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21:49:11 <int-e> cute.
21:49:35 <ais523> `card-by-name Decimator Web
21:49:36 <HackEgo> Decimator Web \ 4 \ Artifact \ {4}, {T}: Target opponent loses 2 life, gets a poison counter, then puts the top six cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. \ MBS-R
21:49:41 <ais523> there we go, that's the core of the deck
21:50:19 <wob_jonas> ah, nice!
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> tells about the sixty cards
21:50:36 <ais523> and 10 poison, and 20 life
21:50:37 <int-e> decimator
21:51:08 <ais523> `card-by-name lich's mirror
21:51:08 <wob_jonas> yeah, but the 10 poison is easy, it's mentioned in a lot of reminder text, and the 20 life can be guessed from some other cards
21:51:09 <HackEgo> Lich's Mirror \ 5 \ Artifact \ If you would lose the game, instead shuffle your hand, your graveyard, and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20. \ ALA-M
21:51:14 <ais523> then that gives you the 7 cards
21:51:29 <ais523> (once you've established that life totals start at 20 it's clear that it's restarting the game)
21:51:53 <ais523> wow that card has a lot of rulings
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21:59:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: for the 20 starting life, Rebirth might be the best. 7 cards is trickier, Contract from Below (together with Rebirth) or Backup Plan could help, or if you have thousands of cards, you might notice that several refer to drawing seven cards, but none refer to six or more than seven.
21:59:48 <ais523> Enter the Infinite normally draws more than seven :-P
22:00:17 <wob_jonas> Yes.
22:00:21 <ais523> maximum hand size is a hard rule to convey; you can use something like Spellbook to imply that there is a maximum, but not what it is
22:01:40 <wob_jonas> And there are some cards like "Once with Feeling" that are specifically confusing if you're reconstructing rules this way.
22:01:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: for establishing that there is a maximum, Day's Undoing might be the best
22:02:09 <wob_jonas> or Glorious End, that's even cleaner
22:02:30 <ais523> `card-by-name glorious end
22:02:31 <HackEgo> Glorious End \ 2R \ Instant \ End the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.) \ At the beginning of your next end step, you lose the game. \ AKH-M
22:02:41 <ais523> yes, that's very clean
22:02:50 <ais523> also explains the cleanup step
22:02:50 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Time Stop
22:02:51 <HackEgo> Time Stop \ 4UU \ Instant \ End the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.) \ CHK-R, 10E-R
22:02:51 <wob_jonas> even better
22:03:08 <wob_jonas> But some rules, like the combat rules, are really hard to explain on cards.
22:03:24 <wob_jonas> And good luck trying to explain banding. There's reminder text for it, but it's never printed, and probably never will be,.
22:03:34 <ais523> `card-by-name benalish hero
22:03:35 <HackEgo> Benalish Hero \ W \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/1 \ Banding (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being blocked by a creature, you divide that creature's combat damage, not its controller, among any of the creatures it's bei
22:03:47 <ais523> haha, it doesn't even fit on one line of IRC
22:04:12 <ais523> (I know how banding works but agree that it's complex; it was less complex back in the damage-on-the-stack days, which oddly postdate banding disappearing)
22:04:20 <wob_jonas> Even without banding, the rules of combat are hard to guess.
22:04:39 <int-e> hmm, Glorious End should also have many rulings
22:04:40 <wob_jonas> But seriously, there are a lot of cards that do something like discard all cards and draw seven cards.
22:04:46 <ais523> `card-by-name master warcraft
22:04:47 <HackEgo> Master Warcraft \ 2(r/w)(r/w) \ Instant \ Cast Master Warcraft only before attackers are declared. \ You choose which creatures attack this turn. \ You choose which creatures block this turn and how those creatures block. \ RAV-R, CMD-R, CMA-R
22:04:49 <wob_jonas> That probably lets you figure out that the starting hand size is around seven.
22:04:57 <int-e> only 5, disappointing.
22:04:57 <ais523> that's the best one I know
22:05:01 <ais523> for explaining combat rules
22:05:03 <ais523> but it's not complete
22:05:20 <wob_jonas> It might not let you figure out that every player draws every turn except for the first player in two-player games (we house-rule that because it's stupid).
22:05:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's an attempt to reduce the first player advantage, it's not enough though
22:05:48 <ais523> first player nearly always has the advantage except in some veryr weird matchups
22:06:03 <ais523> (some control mirrors have a second player advantage, as do most matches involving Manaless Dredge)
22:06:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, that's fine. the bad part is that in multiplayer games, the first player also draws. we believe that's a bad rule and so in our 2 vs 2 multiplayer games, the first player doesn't draw, and the players of a team sit opposite of each other.
22:07:11 <ais523> oh, right, multiplayer
22:07:29 <ais523> M:tG would possibly benefit from Hearthstone's attempt to nullify the first player advantage
22:07:44 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Time Reversal
22:07:45 <HackEgo> Time Reversal \ 3UU \ Sorcery \ Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. Exile Time Reversal. \ M11-M, M12-M
22:08:00 <ais523> (not only does the first player skip their first draw step, the other player starts with an instant that's effectively "{0}: add {1} to your mana pool")
22:08:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, a free gold for the second player
22:08:18 <wob_jonas> wait, an instant, not a permanent? ok
22:08:21 <ais523> err, sorcery, not instant, but hearthstone doesn't have instants
22:08:29 <wob_jonas> I thought it was a permanent you sacrifice
22:08:40 <ais523> nope, cast from hand and goes to graveyard
22:08:45 <wob_jonas> Ok.
22:09:17 <wob_jonas> That might be even better, or worse, depending on the meta.
22:09:49 <ais523> yes
22:09:59 <ais523> it'd be great in storm (and IIRC works in storm-like combos in Hearthstone)
22:10:19 <wob_jonas> What storm? M:tG-like storm?
22:10:20 <int-e> ais523: oh you can use that on any turn you wish?
22:10:46 <ais523> int-e: right
22:10:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes
22:10:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: only once per game usually
22:11:06 <ais523> Hearthstone doesn't have an exact equivalent of M:tG storm but it does have things that care about you having played spells already
22:11:08 <ais523> kind-of like Surge, actually
22:11:24 <wob_jonas> I see.
22:11:27 <int-e> wob_jonas: yeah but not restricted to the first turn, which is what I initially thought
22:11:39 <int-e> (and that would be far less useful)
22:12:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: does it have spells that make your opponent discard a card, or spells that let you choose a card from opponent's revealed hand to discard?
22:12:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: probably
22:12:22 <ais523> I'm not an expert
22:12:42 <ais523> but those don't violate any of the rules I'm aware of for what hearthstone cards can do and they're fairly obvious effects
22:12:59 <ais523> although the former would probably be random, due to the way that hearthstone's turn timers work
22:15:03 <wob_jonas> random discard exists in M:tG too, but is less convenient
22:15:43 <ais523> `card-by-name hymn to tourach
22:15:44 <HackEgo> Hymn to Tourach \ BB \ Sorcery \ Target player discards two cards at random. \ FE-C, EMA-U, VMA-U, MED-U, V13-M
22:16:07 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's a good one power-wise
22:16:41 <wob_jonas> heck, discard at random is more common than I thought. probably because it's common on red cards, which I notice less.
22:16:53 <wob_jonas> (I'm searching for it now)
22:17:06 <ais523> wob_jonas: on red cards it mostly affects the user, though, doesn't it?
22:17:15 <wob_jonas> Yes
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00:58:05 <oerjan> grmbl windows appears to have managed to reboot without my permission.
00:58:22 <ais523> it does that due to mandated updates
00:58:39 <oerjan> i had applied a hack that was supposed to prevent it.
01:01:19 <quintopia> hack harder
01:05:45 <oerjan> the most annoying thing is that although it tried to restart the browser, it came up with a halfway wrong set of tabs.
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01:09:41 <boily> fungot: NOSTRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIL!
01:09:41 <fungot> boily: they say that an opulent throne room is rarely a place to go to my lair to die. ( wump ( 6) " fillet of a sort, yet there was no sword in its eyes.
01:10:45 <ais523> is fungot playing NetHack again?
01:10:45 <fungot> ais523: polymorph into an unknown being. a towel, it is even more muddled and confused. ( fog, by patrick mcgoohan)
01:11:07 <oerjan> helloily!
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01:21:49 <boily> fungot: you're already an unknown being. stop polymorphing.
01:21:49 <fungot> boily: rogue, and hung upon the stays to dry. our stout boots, leathern breeks and deerskin shirts, with a +5 shovel. able to shapeshift, his unpopularity may have been introduced by the all-restrainer hupnos. his nature by which he holds, consisting of a sort of a pearly whiteness; but these luxuriances only formed a more horrid contrast with his claws and poison their unwary victims as well as grabbing and crushing the life o
01:21:49 <boily> his523!
01:21:49 <oerjan> hmph the SO thread i found it now has a comment that the hack no longer works. and hasn't for about a year :P
01:21:49 <oerjan> i guess i've just been diligent with rebooting by hand in time.
01:21:49 <oerjan> except now. i don't remember getting a message that it was _about_ to reboot.
01:21:54 <oerjan> of course i cannot find a new, up to date answer.
01:22:16 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, I set the style to that the other week, and it seems to have stuck.
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01:28:25 <boily> wait.
01:28:25 <boily> Norway.
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01:30:40 <fizzie> "The Norway model" is often in the papers here these days, what with people speculating about post-Brexit scenarios.
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01:42:33 * oerjan sets his activity period to 15:00 - 09:00
01:42:49 <oerjan> that should be reasonable _most_ days.
01:43:21 <oerjan> (yep, it's pretty much the inverse of everyone else)
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02:00:02 <Downgoat> hello
02:00:21 <ais523> hi Downgoat
02:00:40 <Downgoat> for the code-golf site. I was wondering if anyone here has any ideas on who should be allowed to edit posts
02:00:46 <Downgoat> Stack Exchange allows pretty much everyone
02:01:04 <ais523> Downgoat: one big idea I had/rediscovered since our last conversation
02:01:21 <ais523> is to have, instead of two layers (challenge/answer), three layers (challenge/answer/note)
02:01:29 <ais523> anyone can submit a note on anyone else's answer (or their own)
02:01:39 <ais523> containing explanations, questions, further commentary, etc.
02:01:53 <ais523> I'm thinking that an answer would just be the code of an answer, and the explanation would be a note
02:02:00 <ais523> that way you can have competing explanations for the same answer
02:02:26 <ais523> if you do that there wouldn't be much need to be able to edit other peoples' posts; on PPCG editing someone else's post to golf it is discouraged, and editing in an explanation wouldn't be needed as you could just add your own
02:02:31 <Downgoat> So kinda like reddit where you can respond to a post's 'answer' with another 'post'
02:03:02 <ais523> yep
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02:07:24 <ais523> I think it's beneficial for anyone to be able to edit challenges, at least before they go live
02:07:43 <ais523> (I'm thinking we sandbox challenges "in-place" but without the ability to answer, then vote them open when we think they're ready)
02:10:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Resplicate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53366 * Ais523 * (+24) an all-lowercase redirect will allow any capitalisation of the word to be found in search, and this is a hard word to capitalise correctly
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02:46:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53367&oldid=53264 * Ais523 * (+25) +[[Category:Queue-based]]
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03:37:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Avuxo * New user account
03:39:13 <Downgoat> ais523: yeah, there is a special button to submit to a 'review' mode rather than a publish so you can get feedback
03:40:06 <ais523> perhaps that could be automatic for all problems? I proposed that on PPCG and it was rejected because of the way that the new questions list sorted, but that wouldn't be a problem if we could define our own sort orders
03:41:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53368&oldid=53360 * Avuxo * (+285) /* Introductions */
03:41:40 <ais523> oh, this reminds me: another useful feature would be a) hiding answers to a question by default (with an option to permanently unhide them) so that people can work on a problem unspoilt, b) allowing identical or similar answers by different people but merging identical anwers and hiding worse answers by default unless they were voted signfiicantly different
03:41:56 <ais523> this would give us most of the advantages of anagolf in addition to most of the advantages of PPCG
03:42:18 <ais523> the FGITW problem on PPCG is nasty, having it so that if ten people independently come up with the same answer they all get credit seems better
03:42:46 <ais523> (this might lead to people cheating using a second account / logging out / whatever, but as long as there's no real reward the incentive for cheating should be low and it should also be fairly easy to detect)
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04:50:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53369&oldid=53235 * Ais523 * (+17) I forgot to add A Pear Tree
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05:38:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tfbninja * New user account
05:49:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53370&oldid=53368 * Tfbninja * (+306) /* Introductions */
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05:56:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aceto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53371&oldid=52015 * Tfbninja * (-2) /* Grammar */
05:56:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aceto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53372&oldid=53371 * Tfbninja * (+19) /* Examples */
05:58:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aceto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53373&oldid=53372 * Tfbninja * (+11) /* Examples */
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07:37:15 <sleffy> shachaf, I got Philip Wadler to sign my laptop
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07:38:13 <shachaf> `hi sleffy
07:38:13 <HackEgo> Hi sleffy. Heffy.
07:38:32 <sleffy> ah, I seem to have skipped the pleasantries. My apologies.
07:38:35 <sleffy> `hi shachaf
07:38:36 <HackEgo> Hi shachaf. Hachaf.
07:47:01 <shachaf> `thanks sleffy
07:47:02 <HackEgo> Thanks, sleffy. Theffy.
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08:50:41 <shachaf> `ysaclist 68
08:50:43 <HackEgo> ysaclist 68: boily shachaf
08:50:48 <shachaf> @tell boily ysaclist 68
08:50:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.