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00:36:44 <zzo38> I found the source codes of a QBASIC program which I had used before to transfer files from one computer to another over the RS-232 port; the computers used different disks, so I was unable to use a disk to transfer the files.
00:37:18 <zzo38> Here is the code in case it interests you: http://sprunge.us/RJdY
00:38:19 <zzo38> (I think this program is a bit unusual in using PRINT instead of PUT to write the output, but, this still worked.)
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00:53:40 <boily> quintopia: it has food!
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00:59:33 <zzo38> I found out how the DRAWX .VEC format is working: It is a headerless file with a number of five byte records, which consist of a command code (a single ASCII character) and then two small-endian 16-bit numbers, being X and Y coordinates scaled into the range 0 to 1000 (where (0,0) is the top-left corner). Commands are 'P' to set a point, 'L' to draw a line, and 'X' for end of file.
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01:32:45 <zzo38> Do you know what this notation means? [w=w p9(+100b)] [d=w+m p6] [wi=sq+c p15] [li=sp15] [r=bad] [f=c12 p7] [w1=w+a p0(+50b)] [w2=w p14(+15b)] [f2=t p7] [r2=baht]
01:34:31 <zzo38> (I found it in a file titled "TONYROOM", which seems to be a room layout, together with the cost)
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05:26:50 <zzo38> There is two program for displaying farbfeld pictures, lel and ff-xwin. But, lel is a larger program, has some things that I should should be better to put in other program, and does not even deal with the colours of the display properly like X clients should do.
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17:02:02 <Hooloovo0> https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/?cb=1
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17:13:59 <quintopia> it seems like most of the languages are all clustered together on the left in "not-too-disliked" territory, but ruby, coffeescript, objective-c, and php are significantly more disliked (let's say "moderately disliked") while perl, delphi, and vba are way out to the right in "heavily disliked" territory
17:14:31 <quintopia> which i find surprising. i can understand the perl hate, but i would not have predicted delphi being further right than php
17:15:21 <Hooloovo0> yeah, really confused about PHP not being right near the bottom
18:18:04 <Slereah_> Javascript isn't as high on the list as I thought
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19:33:57 <quintopia> `l//rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:34:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l//rn: No such file or directory
19:34:27 <quintopia> `l/rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:34:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l/rn: No such file or directory
19:34:51 <quintopia> one day i'll remember commands names
19:35:44 <HackEgo> le/rm \ le/rn \ le/rn_append
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19:36:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ rm-p "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
19:36:25 <fizzie> I guess that makes some sort of sense.
19:36:39 <fizzie> It's slightly annoying the way those aren't in /hackenv/bin, but, you know, slashes.
19:37:32 <quintopia> `le/rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:37:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'fun fact ': fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:37:54 <fizzie> I was just going to unrecommend the spaces.
19:38:49 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's|^ ||' < 'wisdom/fun fact ' > 'wisdom/fun fact'; rm 'wisdom/fun fact '
19:39:01 <fizzie> I've always found it easier to just edit the files instead of trying to remember the commands.
19:39:27 <fizzie> There's one for editing contents, I don't think it's generic enough to also edit the file name.
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19:40:23 <fizzie> `head bin/sled bin/slwd
19:40:24 <HackEgo> head: cannot open ‘bin/sled bin/slwd’ for reading: No such file or directory
19:40:26 <fizzie> `` head bin/sled bin/slwd
19:40:27 <HackEgo> ==> bin/sled <== \ [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" ; \ \ ==> bin/slwd <== \ cd wisdom; sled "$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
19:41:02 <fizzie> Yeah, sled for the generic thing and slwd for the wisdom-specific one.
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21:21:17 <wob_jonas> What the heck? So "central heating" in English refers to a different and much broader concept than in Hungarian? What's WRONG with the English language?
21:22:05 <ais523> what does it mean in Hungarian?
21:22:12 <wob_jonas> Apparently in English, "central heating" means any form of heating the interior of a building that doesn't have separate heat generators per room.
21:22:18 <ais523> in English it refers to a system in which there's a house-wide system for heating, as opposed to having a separate heater in each room
21:22:57 <ais523> this is almost always accomplished via the use of a centralised hot water boiler + radiators that radiate the heat from the water into the room
21:23:20 <wob_jonas> In Hungarian, "központi fűtés" only refers to a subset, namely heating buildings where multiple houses are heated by a hot water generator as a communal city infrastructure service.
21:23:45 <ais523> oh, I don't think we even need a word for that in English, it's very rarely used here
21:24:07 <ais523> I'd argue that translating that into "central heating" is misleading
21:24:45 <wob_jonas> Which is cheaper in theory than other forms of heating (definitely cheaper if you live near a power plant), and has less maintenance problems, but also offers less control for the individual apartment owners, because they still have to pay when they don't want to heat their apartment.
21:25:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: even in big cities, or in cities near big power plants?
21:26:10 <ais523> I live in the biggest city in the UK (second-biggest if you consider the whole of London a city; for weird historical reasons only a very small proportion is)
21:26:14 <ais523> we don't have anything like that here
21:28:53 <ais523> it makes sense, I guess it's just that people in the UK don't like living near power plants, and many of our power plants aren't suitable for combined-heat-and-power anyway
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21:29:36 <wob_jonas> So it's not just one of the places where communal heating is impractical because houses are spread too far apart, or because the climate is so warm that people rarely need heating even in the winter, or because oil is so cheap that people leave the engine of old fuel-hog buses on all night because the engine has a bit of trouble starting up.
21:30:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: the power plant is the rare case, most people in Budapest don't get heating from them, but the one special case of Paks where everyone has their house heated to too hot and aren't allowed to set the radiators to cooler because the power plant needs cooling should count.
21:31:32 <ais523> in the UK it's usual to see steam towers when factories or power plants need cooling
21:31:47 <ais523> high chimneys which let hot steam into the atmosphere, it cools quickly because it's a gas
21:31:50 <ais523> and we have plenty of water here
21:32:43 <fizzie> ais523: wob_jonas: The Finnish literal translation of "central heating" (keskuslämmitys) means what the Hungarian term means, and it's also almost ubiquitous in cities.
21:32:45 <wob_jonas> Well sure, it's not an accident that the biggest power plant of the country, in Paks, is next to the Danube.
21:33:43 <wob_jonas> Luckily I've never lived in a place that has communal heating.
21:33:57 <ais523> I think building a CHP system in the UK would be unlikely nowadays because new power plants are normally nuclear (and people are unwilling to want cooling water from a nuclear power station in their radiators), or wind/tidal (which can't be used for CHP)
21:34:35 <wob_jonas> The two apartments where I lived with my parents were really cold, and both had a one per apartment water boiler standing radiator (no floor heating) central heating.
21:35:18 <wob_jonas> The apartment where I live now is much warmer even if I don't turn any heating on, because unlike the previous ones, it's heated by the apartment under and the others around it, and also has better insulation.
21:35:50 <fizzie> ais523: wob_jonas: Actually, sorry -- misremembered. In fact "keskuslämmitys" means something closer to central heating, and "kaukolämpö" (lit. "far heat") means the other one.
21:36:14 <fizzie> Also I thought "district heating" was the English word?
21:36:20 <wob_jonas> I haven't had to turn on heating yet, I'll turn it on the first time I feel cold any early morning in the bed under the thick down (feather) duvet with all windows closed.
21:36:33 <fizzie> "District heating (also known as heat networks or teleheating) is a system for distributing heat generated in a centralized location for residential and commercial heating requirements such as space heating and water heating. The heat is often obtained from a cogeneration plant burning fossil fuels but increasingly also biomass, although heat-only boiler stations, geothermal heating, heat pumps and
21:36:39 <fizzie> central solar heating are also used, as well as nuclear power."
21:36:40 <ais523> fizzie: possibly; it's rare enough that I don't know what the word is
21:36:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I don't know the English words for all this.
21:37:12 <fizzie> I believe there's some of this in London.
21:37:12 <wob_jonas> Yes, that's correct, it also provides water heating as a side effect.
21:37:19 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating#United_Kingdom
21:38:03 <wob_jonas> Oh, and this apartment has two per-room enclosed burning space municipal gas heaters as the main heating source.
21:38:47 <fizzie> And, yeah, it's pretty popular where I came from: "In Finland district heating accounts for about 50% of the total heating market, 80% of which is produced by combined heat and power plants. Over 90% of apartment blocks, more than half of all terraced houses, and the bulk of public buildings and business premises are connected to a district heating network."
21:38:56 <ais523> I think the majority of houses over here use a gas boiler for heating
21:39:17 <fizzie> ais523: That's my impression as well, from coworker talk.
21:39:35 <ais523> electric heaters are common if you only want to heat one room, or want heat only rarely
21:39:43 <fizzie> This apartment is all-electric, which I think is considered a little uncommon.
21:40:12 <ais523> yes, not unheard of but rare
21:40:13 <fizzie> Feels like it costs a lot, though the only point of reference I have is our apartment in Finland.
21:40:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: gas boiler still accounts for multiple heating systems. it can be per apartment, or a central one for a small building with the water boiler in a scary damp cellar to scare children with, or district heating; and it can use ordinary wall-mounted radiators or floor heating pipes.
21:40:52 <ais523> gas is much more efficient at heating than electricity is; many power plants are gas-fired anyway, and burning the gas in your home means you get all the energy from the gas as heat, as opposed to using electricity where much of the energy was lost at the power plant
21:41:08 <ais523> (the exception is if the electricity comes from a renewable source but the UK is nowhere near 100% renewable yet)
21:41:35 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, the details can vary a lot
21:41:51 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I hear all electric is common in Sweden because they have cheaper electricity, and small towns with too thin and cold soil so it's difficult to maintain pipes for municipal gas.
21:42:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: renewable source doesn't imply that it's efficient, but sure
21:42:24 <ais523> the heating system in this house was changed a couple of years ago to use a different sort of centralised boiler, the old one was much larger than the current standard and built into the walls
21:42:41 <wob_jonas> in general gas heating is more efficient, but there are all sorts of details that can make it hard to use
21:42:42 <ais523> the old one used a chimney, the new one just has a vent through the nearest wall (but is self-contained)
21:43:01 <fizzie> There's also an electric "immersion heater" in here, which runs once a day to heat up a bunch of water. It feels really odd to have all this infrastructure invidiually per-apartment, in an apartment building. Back in Finland it was all invisible, somewhere in the building basement.
21:43:47 <ais523> we used to have an immersion heater which we never used, that was changed in the refit though
21:43:56 <wob_jonas> also if you have gas heating, there's the overly bureaucratic chimney maintenance service which is supposed to be taking care of people's safety, especially against carbon monoxide poisoning, but actually just keep inventing frequently changing random rules to screw with people.
21:44:01 <fizzie> Oh, and an electric shower. I don't think I've ever seen one in Finland.
21:44:21 <ais523> it's very common to have a batch water heating system here, with a hot water tank that's re-heated once or twice a day
21:44:26 <wob_jonas> The rules change more frequently than the normal lifetime of any sort of heating appliance.
21:44:28 <ais523> normally you have controls to set the exact schedule
21:44:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: in the UK it's strongly recommended that you fit a carbon monoxide alarm but there are no rules actually requiring it
21:44:50 <wob_jonas> You don't have any of that trouble with district heating in Budapest
21:44:55 <ais523> that I'm aware of, at least
21:45:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, but that's not enough
21:45:21 <fizzie> (An "electric shower" is a thing that's connected to a cold water supply, and it heats water up on-demand as it's used.)
21:46:02 <ais523> fizzie: right, those are very common in the UK, even in houses which otherwise use gas heating
21:46:13 <ais523> although mixer showers that work by mixing hot and cold water are also common
21:46:29 <ais523> the problem with using the regular hot water supply for a shower is that it has a tendency to run out when you're using a batch water heater
21:46:33 <ais523> so not everyone in the house can have a hot shower
21:46:49 <alercah> mix taps are completely standard here
21:46:55 <alercah> usually with only one control
21:46:58 <wob_jonas> Even for this apartment they manage to keep complaining about something, not about the room heating because the enclosed space heaters are simple and can't cause any trouble, but about the small boiler for hot water generation.
21:47:26 <fizzie> Ours is a very basic model, so you only have three heating settings (cold, one heater, two heaters) and you do the temperature control by adjusting the water flow. Makes for a really sad excuse of a shower, but at least it never runs out.
21:48:08 <wob_jonas> right, I hear the UK has this strange system where they often haven't invented a simple water mixer that we have in almost every tap here, except for a few cold water only taps
21:48:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: those were illegal for a long time, IIRC there was some sort of issue with contamination of the mains
21:49:28 <ais523> there's such a thing as a "kitchen mixer tap" which mixes hot and cold water but only after it's already come out of the tap
21:49:33 <wob_jonas> even restaurant taps that are set to hot water only with no way for the user to adjust, to make people buy more drinks, are mix taps, only with a screw from the mix tap removed by the owner so that the users can't grip it
21:49:33 <ais523> by dropping them near each other
21:49:37 <ais523> in order to avoid that sort of problem
21:49:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: huh, how does that work?
21:50:03 <ais523> as in, why would hotter water make you buy more drinks?
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's strange. I've seen such two tap systems even in Hungary, but only like twenty years ago in old dorm buildings inside rooms or something, not in reasonable places
21:51:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: the guests use the warm water to wash your hand in the bathroom, but don't drink it because it's too warm for their tastes (when people drink water, they usually prefer cold or room temperature water)
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21:51:29 <wob_jonas> so they instead buy drinks from the restaurant or pub in glasses or bottles or whatever
21:51:32 <ais523> oh, I see, I didn't realise anyone would drink water from the bathroom taps
21:51:48 <ais523> in the UK, anywhere which sells alcohol has to give everyone (cold/mains) tap water for free on request
21:52:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, they have that strange thing in the UK too? I hear the US has an issue where people don't want to drink from taps, and have separate water fountains or something
21:52:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, in theory restaurants have to serve tap water in a glass
21:52:34 <ais523> it's just really inconvenient to drink from a tap directly
21:52:42 <ais523> and people aren't really supposed to bring their own glasses
21:52:43 <wob_jonas> but sometimes they don't do that, or interpret your order of water as non-tap water and charge from it, or something
21:52:54 <ais523> right, you have to be very clear to say "tap water"
21:53:15 <ais523> if you just say "water" a typical restaurant will serve you something much more expensive in the hope of making a profit
21:53:17 <wob_jonas> and even without that, once they have to order, they might order other drinks
21:53:48 <wob_jonas> also, this happens the most often in restaurants that already want to gain profit from tourists or clueless people
21:55:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: most people drink using their two hands, but they also wash their face at sinks with taps with their two hands, which is something I could never really figure out. I'm in the minority who drink by directly holding my mouth under a tap, and wash my face by holding my face under the tap, or sometimes drink using a soft drink bottle.
21:55:51 <ais523> that's a weird tap design, it's hard to fit your face under the tap with a typical sink
21:56:01 <wob_jonas> I am also willing to drink warmer water in those kinds of skiing restaurants than most other people, I only refuse to drink when the water is so hot it already hurts for washing your hands.
21:56:02 <ais523> in fact, some sinks I've had problems even just fitting my hands there :-(
21:56:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, some taps make it hard. that's what coke bottles are for.
21:57:29 <wob_jonas> ideally either modern thin mineral water bottles that you can fold if they don't fit under, or a half-liter mineral water bottle that fits slanted under most taps (in most places the faucet is also not fixed too strongly to the sink so I rotate it a bit even though I'm not supposed to).
22:00:50 <wob_jonas> Drinking from a bottle can be unhygienic, yet I still do it a lot.
22:01:01 <wob_jonas> I'm not supposed to, but it's simple.
22:03:44 <wob_jonas> Anyway, I don't understand how people even take showers without a mixing tap. Washing up is possible without, using the more water efficient technique of filling a sink with water, which people here always do when there's a lot to wash up at the same time.
22:04:16 <ais523> it's common to do that here too, except for rinsing
22:04:25 <ais523> you have a bowl of hot water for washing, then rinse under the tap once you're done
22:04:46 <wob_jonas> Sure, I've heard of all the inconvenient cleaning methods people used up to like twenty years ago, before basically every apartment started to have a bathroom with shower or bathtub as a standard component, but still.
22:05:46 <wob_jonas> Nobody but very poor people lack a shower of some form or bathtub these days.
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22:07:31 <wob_jonas> And all showers have a mixing tap, because the bathrooms already have to have hot water, and throwing in a mixing tap is simple enough on that, simpler than having a separate hot water and cold water tap.
22:09:31 <wob_jonas> (There's one difference. Showers in individual home bathrooms typically have a shower head on a flexible tube; communal showers usually have a shower head in a fixed high position on a rigid tube instead. This is because the flexible tube often gets leaky and has to be replaced once every few years, but is cheap to replace.)
22:11:25 <wob_jonas> My other grandmother, who died over twenty years ago, actually lived in a poor house without a shower or bathtub, so she had to wash her body from a bowl, but even there she had a mix tap with hot and cold water.
22:13:31 <wob_jonas> People don't use a mix tap for washing themselves only when either (a) they're in such poor housing conditions that not only they don't have a bathroom, but also no access to proper hot water, and have to boil water in a pot on a stove for washing themselves; or (b) it's a shower outdoors on a beach or similar with only cold water, used only in war
22:15:41 <wob_jonas> The no mix tap thing seems a strange foreign practice to me, sort of like squat toilets.
22:17:07 <wob_jonas> I can admit that having taps with the controls placed in reverse can be a genuine cultural difference that's too stuck to reconcile after international travel got cheaper, sort of like driving on the left; and the same about upside down light switches, and ceiling light switches placed at waist height.
22:18:44 <wob_jonas> (Here most taps that have two separate dials for cold and hot water have the hot water dial on the left hand side, ones that have a single handle give hot water if you pull that to the left; you press pysical light switches on the top or pull them up to turn them on; and room light switches are at height.)
22:19:21 <wob_jonas> (These are arbitrary conventions, but they're useful at that if they're standard.)
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22:22:23 <shachaf> Do you use electric showers in the UK?
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22:24:30 <ais523> shachaf: both electric and mixer showers are common
22:25:33 <wob_jonas> Do people at the UK at least have a tall enough tap in either the kitchen or the bathroom that you can fit your head below them? I hate not tall enough taps. How the heck are you supposed to remove foreign objects from your eyes? Everyone knows you must do that with running water whenever possible.
22:25:47 <wob_jonas> You don't need a mixing tap for that.
22:25:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: normally you physically throw water into your eyes
22:26:10 <ais523> sometimes described as "splashing" it
22:26:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but that doesn't really work. that's a workaround for when you don't have running water because you're not in a building.
22:27:09 <shachaf> I've never seen an electric shower but I heard they were common in the UK.
22:27:28 <wob_jonas> I mean, if they have a shower, they can use that instead
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22:30:32 <wob_jonas> Really I've heard of the no mix tap thing in UK from descriptions, but I mostly forgot about it until now. I should really keep that in mind when I decide whether to work abroad and where.
22:31:23 <ais523> wob_jonas: maybe about half the public toilets I use have mixer taps on the sinks, the other half use separate taps
22:31:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: shower works well, but some showerheads are ridiclous, they spew water everywhere in a large area rather than concentrating them in a medium sized beam, so you'd get everything wet. For washing your eyes, you want the water to hit mostly a small area at the bridge of your nose. Tap at bathtub can work but can be harder to reach from outsid
22:32:10 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Oh, I thought you meant electric showers.
22:32:42 <wob_jonas> shachaf: why does electric matter? cold water works for washing your eyes (warm water also works, mind yuo)
22:33:04 <ais523> shachaf: electric and mixer showers still have the showerhead (the bit that actually outputs the water) working the same way, the only difference is how the water is heated
22:33:08 <Taneb> Superheated water might have adverse side effects
22:33:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: I see. how about in private apartments?
22:33:21 <shachaf> I was only half-reading the conversation, I didn't see anything about showerheads.
22:33:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: they're separate in my house, I don't go to a lot of other peoples' bathrooms though
22:33:43 <Taneb> wob_jonas, most toilets I use have mixer taps, most kitchens don't
22:34:19 <wob_jonas> I don't know what kind of bathrooms people have in private apartments in Sweden either. I've only been to like four apartments, but all four are ones where Hungarians live.
22:34:43 <Taneb> I've never been to Sweden or to my knowlege in a Hungarian's apartment
22:38:44 <wob_jonas> Totally different topic. I was thinking of trying to watch some other cartoon TV series franchise (besides MLP:FiM which I've been following for three seasons now). Top contender is Steven Universe, followed by Ben 10. Do you have any recommendation for or against them?
22:38:51 <wob_jonas> This one is hard because you'd have to know my preferences.
22:45:04 <wob_jonas> I also watched much of Phineas and Ferb and enjoyed it, plus most of the original Powerpuff Girls series.
22:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're after kids'-tv-that-adults-like then adventure time seems to be widely loved
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23:01:23 <wob_jonas> yeah... this channel is half European, so I should ask at a time that's not a bank holiday, and earlier in the day
23:01:35 <wob_jonas> is it a bank holiday in the US by the way? let me look that up
23:02:14 <shachaf> I don't think there are bank holidays in the US.
23:02:33 <wob_jonas> yep, holiday in US and UK too (but not in Sweden or Norway)
23:02:45 <shachaf> whoa, today's a holiday in the US?
23:03:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: today as in --11-01. it's --11-02 now here
23:04:34 <wob_jonas> nope, sorry, not a public (bank) holiday in the US apparently
23:04:52 <shachaf> Anyway the US doesn't really have official holidays.
23:05:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: how do people know when shops and offices are closed then?
23:05:45 <wob_jonas> such shops and offices that are normally closed on sundays that is
23:07:59 <wob_jonas> but it is a holiday in Hungary and some of the neighboring countries
23:09:01 <shachaf> The federal government has a holiday schedule and I guess most people use those.
23:09:20 <shachaf> And maybe add some others or remove some.
23:09:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: doesn't that make them public holidays?
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23:15:37 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: 2017-11-05 in most places
23:15:48 <wob_jonas> a few don't use daylight saving time adjustments
23:16:43 <shachaf> I wish everyone got rid of DST.
23:16:48 <wob_jonas> and apparently they don't adjust their tz offset at the same time, but at the same local time around the country. weird.
23:16:55 <shachaf> Maybe I should move to Arizona.
23:17:50 <wob_jonas> in the half of Europe that does do DST adjustments, they do it at the same time
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23:19:17 <wob_jonas> always at 01:00 UTC, regardless of whether their winter timezone offset is +0 or +1 or +2
23:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> the codebase i'm working on right now mixes local and utc times in ways i don't really understand
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23:22:17 <wob_jonas> I was thinking at some point on what the best API would be for a datetime module that covers timezones and the gregorian calendar and all sorts of datetime calculations. Obviously this is subjective. I have a particular idea that I might try to implement as a wrapper some day. I quite like the perl Date::Manip module, but I'm thinking of an API mor
23:22:17 <wob_jonas> e suitable for a statically typed language,
23:22:40 <wob_jonas> and without the part where Date::Manip refuses to handle sub-second precision.
23:23:40 <wob_jonas> Maybe at first I should sketch the API as a patch to Date::Manip that adds more methods and depreciates a few existing ones in favor of the newer ones.
23:23:56 <wob_jonas> Because that interface is nice, but not perfect.
23:24:23 <wob_jonas> Nah, that probably wouldn't work. I'd have to change it to almost unrecognizable.
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23:25:59 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: is that code base written in Excel? Excel doesn't seem to understand about time zones.
23:26:16 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you use kdb?
23:26:20 <wob_jonas> At least in older versions. They may have added stuff since.
23:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> which has different shortcuts for utc timestamp vs global timestamp
23:26:42 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, that surprised me too
23:27:10 <wob_jonas> apparently people use some modern APLs in finance, including kdb and dyalog.
23:27:46 <wob_jonas> but it surprised me because I don't remember seeing Phantom_Hoover on the freenode #jsoftware channel where we talk about various APLs, not just the original topic J
23:27:58 <shachaf> I mean, what are you and/or your employer accomplishing?
23:28:50 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: you are hereby invited to #jsoftware, where you can find a few other people who use APLs for work
23:28:58 <wob_jonas> I emphatically don't do that, and don't want to do that either
23:29:22 <FireFly> Phantom_Hoover: hm, do you work for Kx or for some other company?
23:29:58 <FireFly> I was chatting with a guy from Kx at a meetup here a few months ago
23:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> which apparently accounts for an awful lot of kdb developers, half my team is irish
23:31:01 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, the details are probably boring and i'm not sure they aren't sensitive, basically we pull price data from a few sources, clean it up and provide it to other teams downstream
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23:36:27 <fizzie> The thing about US and UK DST switchover differences is, about half of our reoccurring meetings shift by an hour for that one week, but it's completely arbitrary, since it depends on the time zone of whoever happens to be the nominal organizer of the meeting.
23:37:11 <FireFly> I visited freenode live over the weekend, which was a pain because it meant three time shifts during one weekend (two for the flights back and forth, one for the DST change)
23:37:14 <wob_jonas> fizzie: do you also sometimes get meetings at the wrong date because you confuse date formats?
23:37:25 <FireFly> at least Sweden and UK both do the DST change simultaneously, so there's that
23:38:12 <wob_jonas> FireFly: exactly, that's what I said. the half of europe that does any DST changes at all change at the same time. in the US, the part that uses DST changes change multiple hours apart.
23:39:01 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I don't think that happens too much (Google Calendar is reasonably good about making dates non-ambiguous), although sometimes dates in other contexts (like emails or bugs) end up being confusing.
23:40:11 <shachaf> FireFly: Oh, you're Freenode staff, aren't you.
23:40:30 <fizzie> (The recurring time is not strictly speaking tied to the time zone of the nominal organizer -- it's a property of the event, but that's where the default comes from.)
23:40:42 <FireFly> so I helped organise the event too :P
23:41:11 <FireFly> shachaf: also someone hirefly'd a few months ago btw
23:41:58 <shachaf> Don't I HireFly all the time?
23:41:59 <fizzie> Heh. If you set different time zones for the start and end times (which is apparently supported), the 'repeat' option is disabled: "A repeated event cannot start and end in different time zones".
23:42:33 <FireFly> I meant in the 'hire' sense more than the 'hi' sense
23:46:50 <fizzie> There's apparently some proposal that UK should adopt BST all year round, and "double summertime" when it's usually DST (so effectively just switch to CET), and also there was a newspaper article just the other day where a sleep researcher recommended Finland to switch to CET too.
23:46:55 <fizzie> I think they should adopt both, since then there'd be no UK/Finland timezone difference to think about.
23:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> only for a trial period and it got shouted down by the scots b/c they didn't like how dark it got on winter mornings
23:48:22 <fizzie> So I've heard. And there was the double summer time ("BDST") during the second war.
23:49:13 <FireFly> shachaf: webdev and mobile app dev, JS stuffs mainly
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00:20:00 <lambdabot> CYUL 020000Z 18006KT 15SM -RA OVC035 07/03 A3027 RMK SC8 SLP254
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04:21:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Loudcolour * New user account
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04:26:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MMP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53316 * Challenger5 * (+2097) Created page with "This looks like a neat language! I wanted to let you know that [https://gist.github.com/ScratchMan544/70e3dfbe091c5f3e46d47a99a8e4e7e6 I've written an implementation]. There a..."
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11:01:03 <boily> fungot: how many nostrils do you have?
11:01:03 <fungot> boily: one of the reported matter the purchaser. not only lavished on executives."
11:01:24 <boily> Executive Nostrils™ with Leather Upholstering.
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15:31:43 <lambdabot> int-e said 3d 18h 44m 19s ago: Re: Who cares about ancient cases anyway? / To whom it may concern...
15:32:18 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
15:33:28 <HackEgo> OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "«${NEW}» already exists"; exit 1; fi; mv "$OLD" "$NEW" && echo "«${OLD}» -> «${NEW}»"
15:34:10 <HackEgo> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
15:35:49 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
15:36:19 <oerjan> `le/rn testing // what happened with that
15:36:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'testing ': what happened with that
15:36:37 <oerjan> (just saw numbers in the logs)
15:39:37 <shiro`> if I haven't programmed with an esolang before what should I try?
15:41:48 <alercah> why do you want to program with one?
15:42:13 <shiro`> also I want to make one
15:42:39 <alercah> what kind of fun? the challenge of doing something with limited tools? the fun of exploring something weird?
15:45:56 <oerjan> also funge98 is unusually usable, right fungot
15:45:56 <fungot> oerjan: the short form agreement.??
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16:02:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53317&oldid=52671 * Finianb1 * (+84) /* Instructions */
16:07:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53318&oldid=53177 * Finianb1 * (+27) /* Befunge-93 and Befunge-98 */
16:21:47 <b_jonas> if you actually want to make useful programs, the best bet might be certain non-esolangs with strange features, like haskell or some APL
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17:21:14 <int-e> Hmm, maybe we should conduct a poll whether Countercall is TC.
17:21:29 <alercah> proof by poll, that's a new one
17:22:00 <b_jonas> int-e: what? that's not one of those languages whose meaning keeps changing according to popular vote or something, right?
17:22:06 <int-e> (ais523 wrote on the page that he believes that it is TC... I'm leaning towards no)
17:22:40 <alercah> int-e: that's my intuition as well
17:23:17 <int-e> b_jonas: I'd prefer a proof, but the language is just awful enough to make that hard (for me, at least).
17:23:23 <alercah> it would not be the first time I've been proven wrong
17:23:43 <int-e> So it becomes a perfect target for conjectures :P
17:25:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53319&oldid=52409 * B jonas * (+46)
17:26:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Carlos * New user account
17:38:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lost]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53320 * Wheatwizard * (+2780) Made page
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20:19:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53321&oldid=46069 * Ais523 * (+146) /* Computational class */ TC proof sketch
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21:13:33 <HackEgo> The password of the month is revolutionary
21:50:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53322 * B jonas * (+3203) Created page with "''Geo'' is a simple interpreted toy programming language. I, [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]] created it in 2006 for a programming course that required implementing a parser using ya..."
21:51:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53323&oldid=53322 * B jonas * (+96)
21:53:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53324&oldid=53323 * B jonas * (+2)
21:54:06 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, gno
21:54:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53325&oldid=53277 * B jonas * (+10)
21:55:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53326&oldid=53324 * B jonas * (+25)
21:56:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Olvasható]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53327&oldid=53309 * B jonas * (+25)
21:56:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53328&oldid=53326 * B jonas * (+40)
22:01:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53329&oldid=53328 * B jonas * (+413)
22:04:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Geo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53330&oldid=53329 * B jonas * (+38)
22:15:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53331 * B jonas * (+1319) Created page with "'''Scan''' is a toy programming language. I, [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]] created it in 2003. I published it to the world around 2006. Scan is dynamically typed, values can be..."
22:15:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53332&oldid=53325 * B jonas * (+11)
22:17:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53333&oldid=53319 * B jonas * (+114)
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22:48:07 <wob_jonas> Countercall indeed sounds like it's not obvious whether it's turing complete or not
22:50:32 <ais523> I'm currently leaning towards yes but wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong
22:51:50 <ais523> the main problem is that it only has two places to store data and they're both critically important for other things, /and/ it's easy to prove that you need to shift data back and forth between the two of them for TCness
22:51:52 <wob_jonas> I suspect it's not turing complete, but I don't really know
22:52:49 <wob_jonas> I'm fine with only two places to keep data and shifting data back and forth, that's how two stack automata work, but this one is just so awkward
22:53:24 <ais523> right, it'd be easy if the data were just data, rather than being inherent to the language's control flow at the same time
22:54:05 <wob_jonas> and there's just too few ways to control flow
22:54:21 <wob_jonas> if there were multiple ways to call a function which use the counter differently, it would be easy
22:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53334&oldid=53331 * B jonas * (+3)
22:59:08 <wob_jonas> (I just realized that scan is not turing-complete, because it only has the one stack that stores returns and localized values of variables, and all values are fixed point integers or functions that don't close over anything at runtime.)
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23:11:40 <ais523> is untyped lambda calculus TC without closures? admittedly, I'm not 100% sure what that would mean
23:12:02 <ais523> certainly, currying wouldn't work, which get rid of most of the usual constructions
23:14:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: um... how would that work?
23:14:52 <ais523> come to think of it, Splinter is pretty close to this
23:15:01 <wob_jonas> do you mean that functions only store a reference to the stack, and you can call them only as long as the innermost block of which it refers a variable hasn't exited yet?
23:15:17 <ais523> I mean that a function value isn't stateful
23:15:29 <ais523> it's just a reference to a block of code, like in C
23:15:42 <wob_jonas> but you also don't have algebraic types?
23:15:48 <wob_jonas> because that sounds like a pushdown automaton
23:16:35 <ais523> I agree, I think it's a PDA
23:24:39 <wob_jonas> scan, of which I just wrote a stub entry, is actually sort of like that. a function value only holds a pointer to a node in the parse tree. no closing over values.
23:26:25 <wob_jonas> I think the rules for variables is this: variables with the same name in different compile-time scopes are distinguished. local variables are dynamically localized in the correct scope, but closures don't record any value or reference to them. variable access just takes the innermost localized value that corresponds to the same variable in the sour
23:26:37 <wob_jonas> but I'm not quite sure it works that way.
23:29:38 <wob_jonas> The simplest way to have such a language is to only have global variables instead.
23:44:30 <wob_jonas> but I think if you only have globals, it might not even have enough power for a push-down automaton. I'm not sure.
23:44:48 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if there's even a difference if you can't get input.
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02:04:07 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
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06:53:16 <J_Arcane> Tampio is a lazy purely functional programming language that looks like a natural language – Finnish. https://github.com/fergusq/tampio
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15:18:47 <b_jonas> "Welcome to the future, time traveler." http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/time-machine
15:19:32 <b_jonas> Is that what you'd say to someone who arrives here if Da Vinci arrived here with his time machine?
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15:55:04 <quintopia> not if you recognize him as leonardo
15:55:56 <quintopia> instead you say "yo what's up leo! i see you managed to build a time machine! we never knew! are you sure you want all the spoilers on technology you're about to get?"
16:07:40 <b_jonas> quintopia: we do know he's built a time machine.
16:11:40 <b_jonas> quintopia: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1604.html
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16:36:51 <int-e> b_jonas: just to be logical, that doesn't imply he built a time machine
16:38:52 <int-e> (In fact the easiest way to get a time machine is probably to steal one from another time traveler.)
16:44:23 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, and I actually don't think he's a time traveler at all. I personally think he's an overblown artist who didn't really know anything about science or technology, just drawn a few sci-fi sketches that moved modern people's minds. Like both Bacons.
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17:11:35 <HackEgo> olist 1104: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:12:34 <int-e> SSSS is a bit confusing atm.
17:12:38 <HackEgo> SSSS refers to the Stand Still, Stay Silent webcomic.
17:19:46 <lambdabot> It is necessary for me to establish a winner image. Therefore, I have to beat somebody.
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18:00:35 <int-e> . o O ( "... and currently, that's my wife."
18:01:04 <lambdabot> Don't try to take on a new personality; it doesn't work.
18:01:07 <lambdabot> I reject the cynical view that politics is a dirty business.
18:01:46 <int-e> What a contrast to Trump, who wholeheartedly embraces it.
18:02:17 <lambdabot> I can take it. The tougher it gets, the cooler I get.
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18:20:18 <int-e> hmm earthquakes are irritating.
18:21:51 <int-e> ( https://www.zamg.ac.at/cms/de/geophysik/erdbeben/aktuelle-erdbeben/karten-und-listen/bebendetails/austria/quakes/2017307_evid52784989 )
18:21:51 <idris-bot> https://www.zamg.ac.at/cms/de/geophysik/erdbeben/aktuelle-erdbeben/karten-und->
18:22:20 <int-e> idris-bot: you know I put those spaces there for better cut&paste-ability... *sigh*
18:23:16 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
18:23:33 <shachaf> Is lambdabot ignoring HackEgo again?
18:23:49 <lambdabot> KOAK 031753Z 14013KT 10SM OVC085 16/12 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP174 60000 T01560117 10156 20128 51008
18:23:58 <b_jonas> fungot, is lambdabot ignoring HackEgo again_
18:23:58 <fungot> b_jonas: deal and should we get to the parent of the resolutions of sole on 04/ 23/ 2000) the big of an this interview.?
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18:24:28 <int-e> shachaf: that is intentional
18:24:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: hasnát lambdabot always ignored it because HackEgo puts some mandatory prefix whitespace character to its replies?
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18:24:54 <shachaf> No, only for lines that start with some characters.
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18:25:03 <shachaf> That's why `? weather starts with "lambdabot: ".
18:25:25 <b_jonas> but doesn't lambdabot only care when the line starts with an at sign?
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18:26:12 <int-e> b_jonas: itym @run
18:26:25 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run symbol "hello, world"
18:26:28 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: symbol :: [Char] -> t
18:26:28 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘isSymbol’ (imported from Data.Char)
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18:26:39 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run var "hello, world"
18:26:50 <b_jonas> apparently it does listen with that prefix
18:27:07 <b_jonas> but still, wouldn't HackEgo prefix that so it doesn't look like a nick?
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23:13:55 <boily> fungot: nostril, but another one.
23:13:55 <fungot> boily: with that in mind that we received the help it to set the peak to be on the same,
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23:46:46 <zzo38> Have you see if my "rgbff" program is now working OK or if there is a bit problem?
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00:44:24 <fungot> moonythedwarf: have we been able to be all the more you that we confusing scheduling services with a would deliver the " one of the office on the days that
00:53:41 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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01:01:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:01:24 <fizzie> I think that's about enough of that.
01:01:26 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
01:01:43 <fizzie> fungot: So what should I do with that amulet again?
01:01:43 <fungot> fizzie: drop your vanity and get away with it if it would cleave it in the halls of valhalla in asgard, the mistress of the ring, by terry pratchett)
01:02:00 <fizzie> I guess "drop your vanity and get away with it" is good advice.
01:03:07 <fizzie> fungot: Is it a good idea to zap myself with a random wand?
01:03:07 <fungot> fizzie: if your ghost kills a player, it says, is found by a touchstone, men by gold." ( the two towers, by william shakespeare)
01:03:40 <fizzie> Ah, yes, one of the Bard's lesser-known works.
01:06:59 <quintopia> because tolkien found it and claimed it as his own
01:07:30 <quintopia> also "drop your vanity and get away with it" sounds like a great way to booby trap your house when the police are trying to get in
01:08:01 <quintopia> just hang the vanity by a rope above a trap door over the front doormat
01:08:08 <quintopia> drop it when they come to break down the door
01:16:51 <moonythedwarf> I've been enjoying soup searching http://catagolue.appspot.com/census/b2ce4-cint67e8s14567/C1
01:18:37 <zzo38> I heard someone suggested adding hazmat signs to make it more difficult for the police to get in
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01:56:01 <HackEgo> The password of the month is revolutionary
01:56:52 <shachaf> `learn The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
01:56:55 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
01:57:43 <shachaf> `mkx bin/d1wg//dowg "$@" | head -n1
01:58:02 <HackEgo> 11236:2017-11-04 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
01:58:04 <shachaf> Hmm, that could be confused with `1
01:58:09 <shachaf> Oh well, these things are meant to be confusing.
02:00:43 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%C3%A0_di_Bruno%27s_formula is pg
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10:45:16 <HackEgo> 11200:2017-09-26 <int-̈e> ` sed -i \'$s=sha[c]haf=shach\x0faf=\' quotes > /dev/null \ 11199:2017-09-26 <shachäf> revert \ 11198:2017-09-26 <int-̈e> ` sed -i \'$s=shachaf=sha\x0fchaf=\' quotes \ 11197:2017-09-26 <int-̈e> addquote <fungot> shachaf: i\'ve a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my fina
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11:03:37 <int-e> no new quotes makes me sad
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14:24:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Countup]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53335 * Dan zh * (+483) Created page.
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14:48:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[IJL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53336 * Dan zh * (+406) Created page with "IJL is a Interesting Not Not Joke Language. An example program: print() Outputs: ERROR!! CODE CORRECT! This: SUM(1+1) Outputs: 600# This: SUM(99+990000000) Outp..."
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16:34:15 <garit2> What mathematical operation is a mirror reflection of a multiplication in this sense: multiplication at low bits have 'influence' of just 2 bits, and multiplication result at high bits have 'influence' of all bits in input words. Now: what operation makes answer where low bits have 'influence' of all bits, and high bits have influence of only 2 bits?
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23:15:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53337&oldid=31020 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1013)
23:16:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53338&oldid=53337 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
23:16:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53339&oldid=53338 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
23:18:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53340&oldid=53339 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+1) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
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01:22:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53341&oldid=53340 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+472)
01:26:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53342&oldid=53341 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+0) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:29:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53343&oldid=53342 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+134) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:29:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53344&oldid=53343 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-134) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:32:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53345&oldid=53344 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+123) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:32:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53346&oldid=53345 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-41) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:33:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53347&oldid=53346 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-3) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:35:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53348&oldid=53347 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+39) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:35:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53349&oldid=53348 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+3) /* Constructing More Conditionals */
01:38:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53350&oldid=53349 * JeffryThunderStrike * (+40) /* Converting from BF */
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02:05:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53351&oldid=53350 * JeffryThunderStrike * (-212) /* Converting from BF */
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04:09:20 <zzo38> ZZT is using RLE compression, but it isn't boustrophedon RLE. See picture: http://zzo38computer.org/img_1C/townzzt.png If boustrophedon is in use, then the run lengths for the yellow part near the armory can be grouped together, and the run lengths for the blue parts near the bank can be grouped together.
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08:04:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Dan zh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53352 * Dan zh * (+63) Created page with "Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here be Dragons. Talk here"
08:06:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dan zh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53353&oldid=53143 * Dan zh * (+102)
08:56:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Haddock]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53354 * Dan zh * (+521) Created page.
09:00:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53355&oldid=53354 * Dan zh * (-4)
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09:05:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53356&oldid=53355 * Dan zh * (+883)
09:30:45 <zzo38> GURPS has a broadsword that weighs 3 lb, but there is no longsword listed. I looked it up in Wikipedia; I can't tell what it should be, because it seem that the terms "broadsword" and "longsword" are not refering to specific types of sword (such as the "arming sword", which is sometimes called a "broadsword").
09:37:00 <zzo38> Do you know about swords?
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18:29:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Dan zh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53357&oldid=53353 * Dan zh * (+91)
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18:57:09 <__20h__> Will an article about javascript be accepted in the wiki?
18:57:26 <__20h__> »This wiki is dedicated to the fostering and documentation of programming languages designed to be unique, difficult to program in, or just plain weird.« This fits javascript pretty well.
19:01:50 <zzo38> I don't expect so? But, if you have something to write, then, to write it, I suppose.
19:05:55 <garit> What language has a good ability to generate the code in the runtime, is system-level(gpu access, probably realtime too), and is platform independent(or minimum tweaks needed)?
19:08:16 <zzo38> If it does that, I don't expect to be platform independent, I suppose.
19:09:56 <garit> Yeah, i thought its an impossible combination =(
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20:47:28 <zzo38> I wrote a program to read the Macrocell format used in Golly.
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22:57:36 <int-e> does http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/magnet.html work for anybody else?
23:01:22 <garit2> int-e: doesnt work on adroid
23:09:58 <fizzie> I'm not 100% sure what it *should* look like.
23:10:15 <fizzie> But it does work for me for some values of "work".
23:10:38 <garit2> For me its an empty white rectangle
23:12:07 <int-e> oh well, I'll play with it some more the upcoming week
23:12:08 <fizzie> For me there's a thing that looks a little like a magnetic field plot, which rotates around the X axis, and outside the initial screen size there's vaguely Sierpinski triangle -ish stuff.
23:12:22 <fizzie> Blue-and-white on black.
23:12:26 <int-e> fizzie: yes that's what it's supposed to do
23:13:17 <fizzie> Then it works for me on Chromium (61.0.3163.100) and Firefox (52.4.0) both.
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23:15:03 <int-e> (back in 2008 the sierpinsky stuff was a bit of an accident... I wanted a darker border, then black, but ran out of space in the intro)
23:15:52 <int-e> in any case, good night
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01:59:16 <zzo38> Now I also wrote the program to write Macrocell format, too.
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02:13:53 <hppavilion[0]> Is there a location where I can find massive historical records of METAR reports for a given region?
02:15:43 <hppavilion[0]> quintopia: Specifically trying to find the dates of first snow for Anchorage, Alaska
02:15:46 <quintopia> weather underground and noaa keep historical weather data
02:16:00 <hppavilion[0]> Preferably with data about snowfalls that don't stick- so when it snows, then it all melts, then it snows again
02:19:12 <ais523> I love the way that everyone just kind-of assumes that this channel would be a good place to find people who know the answer to questions like that
02:19:36 <ais523> it's offtopic, but kind-of "in the sphere of the channel" enough to make it worth a try, I guess?
02:21:37 <hppavilion[0]> [that I'm asking the question, not that I'm asking here in particular]
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02:22:12 <hppavilion[0]> hi rdococ. I'm trying to determine the date of first snow each year in Anchorage
02:22:21 <ais523> hppavilion[0]: OK, so now you have to design an esolang where the source code is expressed in terms of weather, and you enter it by, hmm, physically moving a mobile phone with sensors into a place with appropriate weather
02:22:24 <rdococ> If I came here a few years ago (or more) (it's foggy to me), then I'd like to apologize for what was probably by behavior back then.
02:23:18 <ais523> rdococ: I recognise your username
02:23:21 <ais523> but can't remember much about you
02:23:27 <hppavilion[0]> rdococ: You were one of the first people I ran into when I joined this channel and I don't recall you being unpleasant
02:23:55 <hppavilion[0]> wunderground seems wonderful. You get 500 API calls per day (throttled to 10/minute) for free.
02:24:17 <ais523> in fact I was gone from here for quite a while and don't visit here that often nowadays, so I wasn't really aware that you'd been missing
02:24:27 <rdococ> Yea, I guess. But I do know that at least one person here doesn't particularly like me for things that, most likely, happened in the past.
02:24:41 <rdococ> ais523: I've been here before, as in last year, but I'm talking about 4-5 years ago.
02:25:43 <ais523> the first I have from you in my logs is 2015
02:26:03 <ais523> <rdococ> hi guys <rdococ> uh... I have an article about an esolang -- it explains everything while being a really short stub... what should I do?
02:26:08 <hppavilion[0]> At $600/month (for the absolute maximum plan), you get 100 000 calls per day, 1000 per minute, and you have access to:
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02:26:37 <ais523> that doesn't sound like you were familiar with the channel already
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02:26:58 <rdococ> My memory is foggy, though. I can't really remember.
02:27:08 <ais523> (among other things, you apparently /expected/ it to be ontopic, rather than being jaded enough to really /hope/ it would be ontopic this time)
02:27:30 <hppavilion[0]> Geolookup, Autocomplete, Current conditions, 3-day forecast summary, Astronomy, Almanac for today, 10 day forecast summary, Hourly 1-day forecast, Satellite thumbnail, Dynamic Radar image, Severe alerts, Tides and Currents, Tides and Currents Raw, Severe alerts again somehow, Hourly 10-day forecast, Yesterday's weather summary, Travel Planner, Webcams Thumbnails, Dynamic animated Radar image, Dynamic animated Satellite image, and Current
02:28:14 <hppavilion[0]> But you can also get all of that for free with the aforementioned 500/day, 10/min throttle as a developer
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11:39:51 <HackEgo> 1/2:codo//The codo button is the dodo's undo button. \ arabic//.scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA \ fizzbuzz//Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords. \ finity//Enjoy being locked in your matrix of finity. \
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11:56:36 <HackEgo> 2/2: atm//An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info.
12:13:52 <int-e> yay for data processing
12:19:23 <int-e> . o O ( s/steal/duplicate/ )
12:22:53 <boily> `slwd atm//s/steal/duplicate/
12:22:55 <HackEgo> atm//An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will duplicate your relevant info.
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15:50:36 <Lymia> !zjoust Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ Ⱥ
15:50:36 <zemhill> Lymia: Program name (Ⱥ) is restricted to characters in [a-zA-Z0-9_-], sorry.
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18:59:59 <int-e> garit: apparently webgl2 is too new; https://caniuse.com/webgl2 says that it doesn't work in the standard android browser
19:02:27 <int-e> (but plain webgl should actually suffice for what I'm doing)
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19:03:28 <garit> Im using yandex browser 17.9
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19:12:00 <int-e> heh, or not. '^' : bit-wise operator supported in GLSL ES 3.00 and above only.
19:13:39 <int-e> (webgl only supports GLSL ES 1.00)
19:14:12 <zzo38> A web browser ought to include support of regular expression search of text in the current document.
19:14:17 <int-e> where webgl = webgl 1.0
19:15:09 * int-e should add some kind of error indication though :P
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19:48:29 <rdococ> Concept: Language where scopes are first-class objects. Variable access and variable assignment uses an optional scope variable - if s is a scope, then you could do "s v = 3" to set v to 3 in that scope. The global scope, simply named 'global', contains every other scope, and is parented to itself. 'local' is a global reference (in the 'global' scope) to the current scope, and 'code' would be a global reference to an AST representation of the code
19:48:29 <rdococ> which is currently being executed.
19:49:30 <rdococ> Both 'local' and 'code' are in the 'global' scope - therefore, if you change the current scope to a scope which is not in the 'global' scope, you would not be able to access 'local' or 'code' by normal means (without having a reference to the 'global' scope in the scope you're in now).
19:51:57 <rdococ> Functions would also have access to an explicit continuation, and would have to call it to return. In effect, when you create a function, you're creating a custom continuation which gets the continuation of the invoker.
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19:58:58 <rdococ> In other words, *every* call is a call/cc.
19:59:31 <rdococ> Or, rather, a jump/cc. Rather than monologuing in this chat, I'm going to move the stuff in my Notepad++ document for it to a gist.
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21:08:09 <zzo38> The simplest RLE is with only homogeneous runs. Some (such as PackBits) support both homogeneous and heterogeneous runs. But I thought also a third kind of run could be done, which is copy above.
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21:55:52 <zzo38> Now I made program to encode and decode Dr.Halo .CUT files (ImageMagick can only decode). Some of these pictures http://cd.textfiles.com/fantaziasampler/CLIPART/CUT/ will even compress slightly better with my software (only by a few bytes though; often the file size is the same as the original though).
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22:43:23 <quintopia> ive never heard of that format so i have no opinion
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23:14:48 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAARGHRIGOEHRGIEOHGIEORGHIERGHIORHGIOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFLBLBLBLBLBLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAÁAAAAAAAAAH!
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23:27:57 <rdococ> Excuse me, I am off to repair my ears.
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23:39:59 <boily> I didn't porthello at all during the weekend!
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17:24:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53358&oldid=53317 * Finianb1 * (+0) /* Instructions */
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18:56:37 <HackEgo> con//Cons are small mammals which, shortly after birth, eat two other mammals. They then live on sunlight and grass, until they are finally removed from existence.
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19:47:12 <rdococ> Can a con eat other cons, int-e?
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20:21:05 <wob_jonas> I have to be careful with the vicious clothing cycle. Basically, some clothes get more comfortable the more I wear them, because washing with a rinse agent makes the cotton softer. But when I choose what clothes to wear, I often choose the more comfortable ones. So there's a positive feedback loop for wearing older clothes, which eventually get rui
20:21:05 <wob_jonas> ned, without breaking in the newer clothes.
20:26:12 <doesthiswork> do what hermit crabs do. Steal broken in clothes from someone slightly weaker than you
20:28:57 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: stealing clothes is not socially acceptible. the usual method is to buy clothes from people slightly *richer* from you, usually people notionally in the UK who just sell their warm winter clothes in the spring and sell their summer clothes in the autumn.
20:30:26 <wob_jonas> "Notially in the UK" means that every used clothes store that isn't selling clothes collected as charity is labeling them as "British used clothes" for the quality associated with that, just like how chocolate is labeled as "Belgian" or "Swiss" regardless of where it's made.
20:37:14 <doesthiswork> The british are known for the quality of their used clothes?
20:38:22 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: they do know, since all non-charity-based used clothes stores started to label their clothes as UK
20:38:48 <wob_jonas> nobody knows where the used clothes really come from, or where Belgian and Swiss chocolate really comes from, but now they're stuck with that label
20:40:58 <wob_jonas> The charity shops have it easier, because all the big charities already use the names of big reputable organizations, and are now reputable as charities themselves too, namely the Red Cross charity, the Baptist charity org, the Maltese (as in Holy Order of Malta) charity org, and the Ecumenical charity org.
20:42:51 <doesthiswork> I don't see why reputation plays a large part in the used clothes market, because unlike chocolate you get to try it before you buy it.
20:44:38 <int-e> let's combine the two ideas and open a used chocolate market
20:45:24 <doesthiswork> sounds great. Here in america we have rainbow foods which is a used food store
20:45:30 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: well sure, but there's so many shops you're unlikely to go in every one and try each garment sold in them
20:46:24 <doesthiswork> perhaps I'm underestimating the density of used clothing shops in Britain
20:46:37 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: um, these stores aren't in Britain
20:47:23 <wob_jonas> of course if the clothes really were British, that would imply that Britain doesn't have many used clothes stores, it just exports all those used clothes to here
20:47:48 <wob_jonas> just like how western europe exports used cars to Hungary, then Hungary exports them to southern europe, then southern europe exports them to africa
20:48:10 <doesthiswork> I thought maybe the british had the attitude that every month deserves a fresh set of clothes
20:48:36 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: well that's what these used clothes stores imply
20:49:02 <wob_jonas> they buy fresh clothes every season, and give away the old ones to be sold in Hungary
20:49:43 <wob_jonas> and the Swedish buy a new car every seven years, give away the seven year old cars to Hungary, who use them for seven more years, then give them away to Bulgaria, who then use them for seven more years, then give them away to central africa
20:50:21 <wob_jonas> (The British cars aren't exported to Hungary obviously, because they drive on the wrong side of the road.)
20:53:10 <doesthiswork> Hungarian drivers no longer use both sides of the road?
20:54:29 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: no longer. they switched to using only one side some time in the first world war or something
20:57:32 <wob_jonas> that's one of the very few side effects of big wars: since almost all the existing infrastructure is exploded by nazi soldiers as they leave the country, you might as well retire old standards as you rebuild things. otherwise it's so hard to switch to a different standard in some things.
21:01:00 <rdococ> s/wrong side/left side/
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22:28:19 <rdococ> I'm working on a concept for a language in which strings are composed of words, rather than characters. Should punctuation be considered part of the word, or part of the whitespace?
22:30:34 <garit2> rdococ: i would suggest not to do that. But if you really want, then you could select just 1 separation symbol. But even then you might find bad cases like 'apple tree "red fish" hammer', where people try to make a single word with quotes or other way to try to find escape characters..
22:32:06 <rdococ> garit2: Do you mean that "I would suggest not to do that, even in an esoteric language", or "I would suggest not to do that in a non-esoteric language"?
22:32:51 <garit2> Definitely second, and even in first case - may be. I dont see any case where it might be good and many cases where it will cause troubles
22:35:14 <garit2> Unless you make something like a new brainfuck, hehe =) im not sure if you actually plan to use it anywnere
22:36:23 <rdococ> garit2: Okay. Well, I was considering different methods to pass function (well, continuation) arguments.
22:37:19 <rdococ> Uh... what do you think I should go for? I was thinking "by reference" so that functions could modify variables passed to them, but then what about arguments which aren't valid R-values (e.g. "3", or "a + 1")?
22:39:45 <rdococ> Is that in the "break mathematics and logic" kind of way?
22:40:08 <rdococ> Because that just sounds kind of odd to me.
22:43:12 <doesthiswork> haskel allows you to let expressions be whatever you like such as "let 1+1 = 5 in 1+1"
22:43:37 <rdococ> That's pretty odd, then.
22:44:07 <doesthiswork> so you can uniformly pass expressions by reference
22:45:34 <rdococ> doesthiswork: I had the idea that variables would basically be pointers, and you would have to dereference them to access their values.
22:46:51 <rdococ> E.G. "a = 3" assigns 3 to the variable 'a', but "a" isn't 3; "a" is just a reference/pointer to 3. So, to get the value of "a" (3 in this case), you would have to dereference it e.g. "@a" (meaning '[value] at a').
22:46:54 <doesthiswork> wouldn't you then just be passing everything by value?
22:47:55 <rdococ> Well, passing "a" to a function would mean that the function parameter - let's say it was named "x", now holds "a". Meaning that "@x" is "a", and "@@x" is 3.
22:48:09 <rdococ> @3 would be the third object in memory, I would suppose.
22:50:35 <rdococ> The idea is that "a = 3" is writing the value of 3 to a, while "@a" is getting the value at a. I might be completely wrong here, but I think it's basically an abstracted form of a memory address.
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22:51:15 <rdococ> If I wasn't completely wrong, "a" could function as a memory address. "a = 3" would write 3 to that memory address, while "@a" would get the value stored there.
22:52:23 <doesthiswork> do you have an anti @ to get the address of a value?
22:52:26 <rdococ> It's basically dynamic allocation. I think.
22:54:19 <rdococ> "a = 3; @a = 4" would set the value of the third variable (since they're not *exactly* memory addresses, rather weird... references with pointer-like arithmetic) to 4.
22:54:37 <rdococ> "a + 1" would evaluate to the variable after "a".
22:54:54 <rdococ> (Not its value, of course. That'd be @(a + 1).)
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23:12:29 <\oren\> hmm, suppose all function arguments are mutable
23:15:32 <\oren\> would result in the source file reading
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23:33:15 <\oren\> holy shit I might get to go to singapore!
23:34:33 <boily> Singapore is nice!
23:34:36 <boily> the food is amazing!
23:34:51 <boily> the weather is horribly warm and hot and humid and sweaty, though...
23:35:29 <boily> but the botanical gardens are beautiful!
23:35:36 <boily> and the zoo is fun!
23:35:45 <boily> and the bird park is stupefying!
23:35:58 <boily> and the food is really good!
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00:37:59 <oerjan> ais523: my condolences with the horrible demise of your polyglot challenge hth
00:42:09 <oerjan> but someone found a language that I am now considering putting on the wiki only to slap Category:Shameful on it.
00:42:31 <ais523> I guess you get the bad with the good
00:43:11 * oerjan also just put a snark in a comment
00:43:29 <\oren\> hwat language was that?
00:43:42 <ais523> I'm surprised that a language like that would have a censored name
00:43:47 <oerjan> although that might be deleted i guess - PPCG is unpredictable.
00:43:48 <ais523> or maybe it doesn't and it was just censored in the post?
00:43:58 <oerjan> only in the title, actually
00:44:12 <ais523> Stack Exchange's rules about esolang names with "fuck" in are that they should be censored in question titles but not elsewhere
00:47:11 <ais523> alercah: it's basically because they don't want questions about brainfuck reaching Hot Network Questions uncensored and appearing in the sidebar pretty much everywhere
00:47:16 <ais523> this has happened a few times in the past
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01:05:02 <shachaf> I always think "ppcg" stands for "planet pooch" something
01:05:47 <HackEgo> ysaclist 67: boily shachaf
01:07:37 <boily> I don't think I ever ppcged?
01:11:44 <boily> there are other alexes?!?!??!!!
01:12:07 <ais523> quintopia: was that directed at me? I don't normally use realnames on IRC because a) they can be ambiguous and b) they don't ping
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01:12:53 <quintopia> yes. i didnt want to ping you if you were busy
01:13:23 <ais523> if I'm really busy I just don't respond to the ping until later (or just close IRC)
01:15:11 <ais523> really we need a golfing site that's a) suitable for in-depth problems (unlike anagolf) and b) not evil (unlike Stack Exchange)
01:16:57 <ais523> I'm not sure if I saved the rant I sent to SE when deleting my account, let me see if I did
01:18:11 <ais523> shachaf: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/stackexchange-resignationletter.txt
01:18:18 <ais523> I had to golf that to fit it into the character limit, too :-(
01:18:45 <ais523> they gave a generic reply to it that implied that they didn't actually read what I'd said, and presumably was a stock response worded to sound sympathetic
01:20:29 <shachaf> Would it be useful to get that text to someone there who would actually read it?
01:22:18 <ais523> they'd have to want to do something about it
01:22:34 <ais523> I believe the Stack Exchange higher-ups have decided to mostly focus on Stack Overflow rather than the exchange more generally
01:22:44 <ais523> and possibly to make it into a jobs site as that's how they make their money
01:24:51 <ais523> PPCG has done a good job at making a usable golfing site, but it's mostly via using half the site features in ways they weren't intended to be used (and in some cases are explicitly not intended to be used)
01:26:11 <shachaf> Are you going to make a better golfing site?
01:26:35 <quintopia> while i agree that se is terrible for code golf, i dont agree that all the incentives are wrong for proper q+a. they do it better than quora. moderation is screwed up but again, better than quora.
01:26:37 <ais523> probably not, I'd like to but I doubt I'd complete it in a reasonable length of time
01:27:14 <ais523> quintopia: I've tried using Stack Overflow to a small extent; I got a useful answer ("what you're trying to do is probably impossible") as a comment and an incorrect answer as an answer which I couldn't downvote because my account was too new
01:27:33 <shachaf> I've had a better time answering questsions on Stack Overflow than asking them.
01:27:51 <quintopia> ais523: write up a design goals document for an ideal code golf site
01:27:56 <ais523> the main problem with answering questions is that it's hard to overtake an existing answer even if it's correct
01:28:04 <ais523> *even if it's incorrect
01:28:43 <quintopia> true. it could benefit from a medium-style upvote system
01:29:03 <quintopia> but "accepted answers" gets around that to some extent.
01:29:40 <ais523> accepted answers can be fairly random
01:30:13 <ais523> the next issue is, is Stack Overflow meant to be an FAQ site (i.e. compiling the answers to commonly asked questions for the benefit of everyone), or a "get an answer" site (i.e. aiming for an answer that helps the OP in particular)?
01:30:24 <ais523> the answer is, it doesn't know, and the site documentation is contradictory on the matter
01:30:28 <quintopia> can be. but at least there is more control over them
01:30:53 <ais523> PPCG would benefit from having the accepted answer feature disabled altogether, although that may not be true for things like Stack Overflow
01:31:16 <quintopia> i always assumed it was more the latter because it's focus on long carefully worded questions
01:31:45 <quintopia> so about that design goals document
01:31:57 <ais523> I'll have to think about it
01:32:05 <ais523> I've thought about it in the past but I can't remember all my conclusions
01:32:16 <shachaf> Why wouldn't you complete it in a reasonable length of time?
01:33:22 <ais523> because I haven't really been able to do anything major for months, apart from in some cases my day job
01:34:16 <shachaf> Maybe we're in the same boat.
01:36:55 <shachaf> Do you have a good idea of what a good code golf site would be like?
01:37:24 <ais523> better than average, I guess; I'm not sure about good
01:37:42 <ais523> I think one thing you have to make a choice about is whether you allow people to compete in languages the site doesn't know about
01:38:13 <ais523> the ideal here would probably be "no, but there's an easy / lightweight way to teach the site about a new language"
01:41:58 <ais523> ah right, I also had the idea that the CAPTCHA would be submitting a competitive solution to a recently submitted problem
01:42:13 <ais523> something that most legitimate users should be able to do but most spammers won't be able to, even human spammers
01:42:42 <ais523> (this is similar to the CAPTCHA-equivalent used by some gaming servers for 1v1 games, which require you to win a ranked game)
01:48:11 <shachaf> You should write up your thoughts about how the site would work somewhere.
01:48:44 <ais523> need to write them down first, though!
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03:01:17 <doesthiswork> I saved ais523's answer's from last time this topic came up
03:01:42 <ais523> pastebin them somewhere? it'd help me avoid having to remember them
03:04:34 <shachaf> doesthiswork: Are you going to make the website?
03:04:42 <doesthiswork> I like reading design documents, so when people refuse to make them I console myself with lists of features
03:06:02 <ais523> luckily I like /writing/ design documents
03:06:05 <ais523> so if you just want one of those, there's a chance :-)
03:07:03 <shachaf> Readable link: https://pastebin.com/raw/V4sHNvy6
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03:08:00 <doesthiswork> I could try making a site, but because I've never done more than individual web pages
03:09:38 <shachaf> Yesterday I cloned someone's website program in a few hours because the only way it worked was by sending information to the server.
03:10:03 <ais523> doesthiswork: that's probably a bad idea because something like this is a) very stateful (therefore easy to get wrong) and b) heavily dependent on sandboxing
03:10:29 <ais523> oh, another thing I'd like (either as part of this or just separately) would be a site which has JavaScript impementations of a large number of languages
03:10:36 <shachaf> Maybe you could make a first version without running programs
03:10:49 <ais523> shachaf: actually it does (Stack Snippets), but a program runner would be a very desired feature for a golfing site
03:10:59 <ais523> on PPCG, people normally use Try It Online!
03:11:30 <shachaf> You should put your site at code.golf except it's taken
03:11:31 <ais523> hmm, we should teach HackEgo Jelly
03:12:15 <shachaf> What's Jelly, a golfing language?
03:12:28 <shachaf> Why are golfing languages interesting?
03:12:34 <ais523> the best general-purpose one of the non-vapourware languages
03:12:35 <shachaf> All they do is make all programs shorter.
03:12:59 <ais523> golfing languages are interesting because they get closer to the way you think about problems
03:13:08 <ais523> in a way, they're closer to natural languages than most programming languages are
03:13:23 <ais523> the reason is that describing the problem is nearly always shorter than describing how to solve it
03:13:44 <shachaf> Well, golfing languages that use a fancy byte encoding.
03:13:49 <ais523> so in a way, the more expressive a language is, the better it is at being a golfing language
03:14:04 <ais523> things like fancy encodings and the like are side issues, the core functionality is much more important
03:14:19 <shachaf> OK, sure, the core functionality can be interesting.
03:14:34 <ais523> most good golfing languages make significant use of higher-order constructs
03:16:34 <ais523> oh, hmm, now I almost want to work on The Underlambda Project again
03:16:47 <ais523> although being written in a language that doesn't currently exist doesn't help matters
03:17:30 <ais523> it's intended to be a single program that's a compiler/interpreter with a very large number of esolangs as frontends and backends, i.e. it can compile a program in esolang X into esolang Y, or run it directly
03:17:46 <ais523> however, it's /also/ written in a language it supports, so it can translate itself into any of those languages (via quining functionality)
03:18:11 <ais523> not very efficient, but lets you create an interpreter or compiler for any supported esolang in any other
03:18:25 <ais523> (I might also include practical languages as output formats, and maybe even subsets of them as input formats)
03:19:24 <ais523> shachaf: anyway, this is a good example of the power of golfing languages: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/120979
03:19:39 <ais523> just try to write something like that in C or Java or Python, it'll be much less clear what the program actually does
03:19:56 <ais523> whereas ~h=∋ᵐ\cᵐ= is close to a direct description of the problem
03:24:12 <lambdabot> (!!3)<$>transpose[show$foldr(\k a->2*10^2^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..2^n]|n<-[0..]]
03:24:14 <lambdabot> [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
03:24:53 <shachaf> That's some pretty good golf.
03:25:05 <shachaf> Today I saw an algorithm for computing square roots using only addition and subtraction.
03:25:20 <shachaf> It was surprisingly simple.
03:25:35 <ais523> is that the one that looks like long division?
03:26:33 <shachaf> The way it works is, to compute sqrt(n), you start with a=5*n, b=5
03:26:51 <shachaf> As long as a >= b, you set (a,b) = (a-b, b+10)
03:27:32 <ais523> oh, hmm, that's more of a bressenham-style algorithm, and different from what I was thinking of
03:27:37 <shachaf> Otherwise you set (a,b) = (100*a, floor(b/10)*100+5)
03:27:52 <shachaf> Which is an awkward way of saying you add two zeros to the end of a and you put a zero as the digit before last in b
03:28:41 <ais523> anyway, golfing languages are normally easier to write in than practical languages for small programs
03:28:55 <ais523> because they're so much more expressive (and often have more builtins too)
03:29:15 <ais523> if they became popular enough I'd imagine they'd take over from things like Perl for short one-line programs
03:29:37 <ais523> they're normally quite bad at maintaining state / doing imperative things, though
03:29:52 <ais523> because they think in terms of descriptions-of-solutions rather than the route you get there
03:30:36 <shachaf> > let f (a,b) | a >= b = (a-b, b+10) | otherwise = (100*a, (b `div` 10) * 100 + 5) in iterate f (5*2,5) !! 30
03:31:03 <doesthiswork> what kind of properties would make a language work well when you don't understand some of the features and you don't understand the rest of the program you're working on?
03:31:19 <shachaf> > let f (a,b) | a >= b = (a-b, b+10) | otherwise = (100*a, (b `div` 10) * 100 + 5) in map snd $ iterate f (5*2,5)
03:31:22 <lambdabot> [5,15,105,115,125,135,145,1405,1415,14105,14115,14125,14135,14145,141405,141...
03:31:23 <ais523> doesthiswork: you don't understand some of the language or of the program?
03:31:41 <ais523> I'd recommend language features that strongly encourage encapsulation in that case, e.g. strong typing, a heavy use of small subroutines, minimal state
03:32:04 <ais523> that way you can normally write code that's independently useful regardless of what the rest of the program actually does
03:32:26 <ais523> (fwiw, I think that this is the driving force behind Java's design: writing a language which is usable by large teams of low-skilled programmers)
03:33:09 <ais523> I'm not sure, it might depend on the details
03:38:58 <ais523> dependent types basically give a very strong, machine-readable specification of how a function's arguments and return value are meant to work and what the function's meant to do
03:39:13 <ais523> so I guess it'd help, except that dependently-typed languages are normally very hard to write in generally
03:39:25 <ais523> which may well make them worse at everything but less worse than this, rather than better at this
03:42:41 <doesthiswork> My thought was that specifying more of what you think is going on so you can be informed that you were mistaken generally helps in cases like this, but when you're wrong in an unimportant way strictness makes it more difficult to get things done
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04:40:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> That's some pretty good golf. <-- erm isn't [4..]!!n just 4+n, that doesn't seem very golfed.
04:41:27 <oerjan> oh wait Int vs. Integer
04:41:41 <lambdabot> [show(foldr(\k a->20*100^n+a*k`div`(2*k+1))0[1..[4,8..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
04:41:51 <shachaf> That one is even more golfed but it's too slow for lambdabot to evaluate.
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19:54:12 <HackEgo> 1/2:tanea//Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj. \ photograph//A photograph is a device for creating photograms. \ monads//Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras. \ beethoven's ninth symphony//Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files. \ entryms
19:54:19 <HackEgo> 2/2:g//ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>
19:56:06 <HackEgo> 9730:2016-11-18 <oerjän> slwd entrymsg//s,wiki,, \ 8218:2016-05-30 <b_jonäs> learn ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki>
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20:18:14 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
20:18:40 <Taneb> Can someone who knows how these things work do the slashwisdom for /Yorj/Cambridgf/
20:19:19 <int-e> slwd tanea//s/Yorj/Cambridgd/
20:19:22 <int-e> `slwd tanea//s/Yorj/Cambridgd/
20:19:24 <HackEgo> tanea//Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Cambridgd.
20:20:07 <int-e> I guess boily would've used ssYorjsCambridgds
20:20:35 <Taneb> doesthiswork, quite possibly
20:21:20 <int-e> . o O ( How's life on Cambridge? )
20:21:21 <Taneb> I think they're the same Yorj
20:21:48 <Taneb> int-e, I like my job but I'm not a huge fan of the city
20:22:06 <Taneb> It feels a lot bigger than York did, and I don't really know many people
20:24:50 <shachaf> Taneb: Maybe you should move to an even bigger city
20:25:01 <shachaf> Then move back to Cambridge and it'll feel small by comparison.
20:25:30 <shachaf> Are you going to ICFP 2018?
20:25:37 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't know yet
20:25:39 <shachaf> Wait, that one's in Missouri.
20:25:44 <Taneb> I'd certainly like to
20:27:07 <shachaf> I recommend moving from York to New York
20:27:22 <Taneb> shachaf, sadly I've left York now so I'll have to move to New Cambridge instead
20:27:50 <shachaf> I like New York, I was there a couple of weeks ago.
20:30:03 <shachaf> You could move to the Bronx.
20:31:47 <shachaf> I was walking in the street there and saw 2br apartments selling for <$400k. I was surprised.
20:32:43 <shachaf> I suspect that's pretty expensive for rural Idaho.
20:34:39 <shachaf> But it's in NY, and cheaper than anything around here.
20:35:15 <shachaf> I guess sometimes apartments that you "buy" have high HOA fees which makes the price kind of meaningless.
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22:01:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BradensEsolangs * New user account
22:08:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53359&oldid=53313 * BradensEsolangs * (+149) Introduced myself
22:09:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53360&oldid=53359 * BradensEsolangs * (+107) signed
22:24:02 <fizzie> fungot: Tell me something about gnomes?
22:24:03 <fungot> fizzie: hunter: what of the heavens, as a matter of course, but it will take you away from the third age a troll-race not before seen appeared in paris at just about the ground, he soon turned it into his sleeves. the stone sunk into his mouth and jaws were completely hidden, and most corrosive agents, and burn all the primates, as if it still seems to have been born to command the undead, has ever managed to cheat him out of i
22:24:36 <fizzie> fungot: That was pretty incoherent, even for you.
22:24:36 <fungot> fizzie: always sweep the floor. an elf would smell its rancid stench at ten metres distance.
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22:33:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:34:29 <fizzie> I thought that'd have the best chance re gnomes.
22:35:20 <shachaf> fizzie: You should make a good golf site for ais523
22:35:47 <fizzie> Not until they write down & up the things that make up a good golf site. (Also not after that either.)
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23:18:42 <shachaf> But you're a great web developer
23:18:54 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/bin/edit
23:19:44 <shachaf> `sled bin/edit//s/http/https/g
23:19:46 <HackEgo> bin/edit//#!/usr/bin/env python \ \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ \ if len(sys.argv) < 2: \ sys.exit('httpss://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/') \ \ f = os.path.realpath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|\.hg(?:/|ignore$|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is not editable.") \ print 'httpss://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/'
23:20:38 <shachaf> Oh, the version in there was synced a long time ago
23:36:15 <fizzie> People don't use `edit much.
23:36:37 <fizzie> Besides, I think the zjoust website is much more of a web-development showcase.
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01:36:25 <quintopia> i agree. zemhill is a marvel of modern engineering
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02:21:01 <quintopia> of all the types of cats, which type of cat is better than a cat riding on a roomba?
02:22:22 <fizzie> That was like 85% of the reason why we got a Roomba in the first place, and then our cat never rode on it. :/
02:23:20 <quintopia> so you only got 15% of your money's worth?
02:23:33 <quintopia> maybe get another better type of cat?
02:24:48 <fizzie> I'll just try to visit other cats. Some of the benefits, none of the inconvenience.
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16:20:27 <b_jonas> fungot, can you implement non-uniform polymorphism?
16:20:27 <fungot> b_jonas: someone's been spiking the pits! and never moved she from before my face, so many pilgrims came to the game, coding a large box?
16:21:47 <Taneb> b_jonas: what is non-uniform polymorphism?
16:22:35 <b_jonas> Taneb: dunno, maybe fungot knows
16:22:35 <fungot> b_jonas: it is not to be confused with issek the armless, issek of the river styx in charon's boat. " my dear, you can taste the delicious wine that much that, tall and cone-shaped with stars and crescent moons all over it.
16:22:54 <Taneb> b_jonas: fungot certainly gives us non-uniform answers
16:22:54 <fungot> Taneb: they say that hackers often feel jumpy about eating nymphs.
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19:31:20 <fizzie> fungot: TBH, I don't think there was much danger confusing non-uniform polymorphism with Issek the Armless in the first place.
19:31:20 <fungot> fizzie: they say that teleport traps are the same date for the keeping of oaths and contracts. he is also said, too, that he was hairy only in the village. what shall we do? mephistopheles: nay, i can only hear your heartbeat.
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20:37:30 <quintopia> being armless doesnt rule it out. cf. venus de milo
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23:19:00 <fizzie> Hmm. The wiki is down.
23:19:31 <fizzie> (Has been for the last 7 hours, actually.)
23:34:13 -!- fizzie has set topic: Wiki down, CaC panel unresponsive, waiting and hoping | Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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00:53:32 <oerjan> fizzie: you have access to the CaC panel now?
00:54:16 <fizzie> oerjan: No, I just asked the big G to check.
00:54:26 <fizzie> (Don't want to ping them unnecessarily.)
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01:07:43 <fizzie> At least my most recent backup is less than a day old. But we don't exactly have an alternative place ready.
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04:38:27 <shachaf> do you read Matt Levine twh
04:47:32 <shachaf> is it because he makes fun of Bridgewater?
05:01:44 <copumpkin> I mean, I've read occasional articles of his
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11:45:49 <b_jonas> fungot, how many examples have you seen when a big corporate website was redesigned and it became better as a result?
11:45:49 <fungot> b_jonas: they say that an apple will fall to the size of the gods as well". as a mare, flea, fly, falcon, seal, and from my sheath i drew my snickersnee! --koko, lord of the ring, by sir w.s. gilbert)
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12:07:02 <b_jonas> argh! why is 7z trying to recurse into subdirectories when I'm specifically telling it to -r-
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19:52:46 <rdococ> In languages where functions may return multiple values, would it make sense for a function that returns no values to effectively act as if there was literally nothing there? e.g. let's say f() returns true if it is called with 0 parameters. Now let's say void() returns zero arguments. Then f(void()) would be true.
19:53:14 <rdococ> I mean, of course it might, but that's not what I've seen in practice.... although I've only seen one language where functions may return multiple values, so...
19:53:38 <alercah> rdococ: so, sort of you could
19:53:51 <alercah> from a theroetical sense, it's actually returning a member of a one-element type
19:54:06 <alercah> rather than a zero-element type, since you can't return
19:55:23 <\oren\> well, hmm, if void was treated as a proper type
19:55:37 <\oren\> then you could have variables, like
19:56:57 <\oren\> so really there's "a type with no values", "a type with 1 value", and "not really a type"
19:58:37 <\oren\> void in C is not really a type, it's used where the syntax requires a type but there isn't one
19:58:55 <alercah> or alternatively it's a 1-value type that can't be used in all contexts
19:59:25 <\oren\> but suppose there was a type Void
20:00:39 <\oren\> then you could do everything with it, but it would rarely actually compile into any code
20:01:16 <\oren\> void y; void x = f(y);
20:02:00 <\oren\> if sizeof(void) is 0, then void pointers would be usable better
20:02:24 <\oren\> void *x = malloc(sizeof(void))
20:03:23 <\oren\> i wonder how rust does void
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20:38:20 <rdococ> If functions are thought of as returning tuples containing each return value, rather than returning those return values individually, then returning nothing would be equivalent to returning an empty tuple containing no values.
20:41:37 <rdococ> Hmm... is there even a way to use zero-element types? I mean, if they have *zero* elements, then how would that type do anything?
21:00:43 <rdococ> Huh. Apparently a bottom type may be classified as the return value of functions which never return (e.g. infinite loops, or functions that exit to other continuations).
21:00:50 <rdococ> s/return value/return type
21:09:19 <lambdabot> CYVR 102100Z 28010KT 15SM FEW004 BKN023 09/08 A2990 RMK SC2CU4 SLP128
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22:09:11 <zzo38> GNU C does allow struct{} with no fields, with size zero.
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22:12:21 <fizzie> \oren\: You can have an "extern void x;"
22:12:44 <fizzie> You could have a regular "void x;", it's just that void is an incomplete type that can never be completed.
22:13:01 <shachaf> I wish C++ supported void values.
22:13:41 <zzo38> If you want a empty type then use struct{} instead of void
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22:14:02 <fizzie> C11 6.2.5p19: "The `void` type comprises an empty set of values; it is an incomplete object type that cannot be completed."
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22:16:39 <zzo38> Yes, but struct{} type has one possible value, like () in Haskell. But, void is no type; used when there is no return value (it returns without giving a value) or when it is void* is a pointer to not specifying what is the pointer to type.
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22:19:01 <fizzie> You can also have a function declaration like int f(int x, void y, double z); but it's not super-useful, since you can't have a definition for it, nor can you call it.
22:19:14 <\oren\> actually, I looked and it turns out I have an empty struct in one of my projects
22:19:29 <\oren\> it has a bunch of methods but no data in it
22:19:38 <fizzie> \oren\: Your project is not strictly conf.. oh, C++.
22:19:56 <fizzie> That's allowed, though I think it has a non-zero size in C++?
22:20:00 <zzo38> fizzie: Is it even allowed?
22:20:13 <shachaf> I think it's allowed in C++ with a non-zero size.
22:20:33 <zzo38> I think the GNU documentation says that in C++ the sizeof empty struct is one, but in C mode, the size is zero, which is more sensible.
22:20:55 <fizzie> I think so too. The non-zero size had something to do with the necessity of having different subobjects for multiple inheritance, or some-such
22:22:03 <shachaf> Well, there's also the fact that you have two objects they can't have the same address, or something like that?
22:22:05 <\oren\> basically it used to have data in it but now only the derived classes have data
22:22:23 <fizzie> https://isocpp.org/wiki/faq/classes-and-objects#sizeof-empty says that, yeah. "To ensure that the addresses of two different objects will be different."
22:23:00 <fizzie> \oren\: structs with only pure virtual methods (and no data) are pretty conventional way to define interfaces in C++.
22:23:59 <zzo38> GNU C also allows the number of elements in an array to be zero, which in my opinion is also sensible (such as a field in a struct).
22:24:00 <fizzie> Looks like I was remembering the base class thing almost exactly the other way around -- empty base classes don't need to have distinct bytes in the resulting object.
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02:04:20 <Rodger> Don't confuse me with that other guy named Roger I found via /ns info.
02:04:55 <Rodger> But I think it's fine, since multiple people probably go by this name in real life. Speaking of which, this isn't my real name.
02:09:20 <doesthiswork> you chose the name because many people would be more relaxed if they got a good rodgering once in a while?
02:15:56 <Rodger> Well, that and its other meanings combined.
02:47:01 * oerjan vaguely thinks we used to have some RodgerSomethingOrOther in here
02:51:04 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVq4_HhBK8Y
02:51:50 <oerjan> (apparently googling it these days gives star wars hits)
03:30:38 <zzo38> Jolly Roger is a kind of flag will a skull I think?
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03:52:48 <zzo38> I have made up a way to slightly improve compression of Dr.Halo and PackBits (without altering the file format at all).
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07:06:30 <zzo38> Do you know if any other program does this? The example files I have found do not seem to do this
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11:53:27 <fizzie> Hmm. Still no sign of life from the system. We might need to start thinking seriously about alternatives at some point.
11:54:19 * int-e CaCkles maniacally.
11:56:24 <int-e> good news, their sales frontend is still up...
11:57:08 <fizzie> When I asked Gregor, the control panel was "up" but none of the power-down/reboot/... options actually responded.
11:58:44 <fizzie> Wonder if people'd contribute to the hosting costs if I asked. Around $3-4/month is the lowest I've found so far for a VPS with 2G of RAM. Just hard to tell if these places would actually be an improvement.
11:58:48 <fizzie> (2G is just the current specs, don't really have a feeling of how well it'd run with less.)
12:04:26 <fizzie> For the record, the ones I have left tabs open are https://www.scaleway.com/virtual-cloud-servers/ https://www.hyperexpert.com/vps.php https://www.woothosting.com/pulse/cart.php?a=add&pid=73
12:04:30 <fizzie> The last is an odd special deal via lowendbox.com, I can't tell if it would stay that price. Their regular prices are quite a bit higher. And Scaleway has their odd €2.99/month dedicated ARM server as well.
12:04:46 <Taneb> (I'd certainly contribute to that)
12:14:56 <int-e> (I think I've said before that I feel I'm doing enough by paying for that little thing.)
12:16:51 <fizzie> I could put up a Wikipedia-style banner. ;)
12:16:59 <fizzie> Where do you run lambdabot?
12:17:03 <int-e> Though perhaps it would be smarter to ask the haskell infrastructure people to host it somewhere, hmm.
12:17:13 <int-e> Ramnode, but they're not the cheapest option.
12:18:11 <fizzie> Yeah. The thing with the cheapest places is, they generally all have rather mixed reviews. Of course in relative terms it might still be an upgrade from the current.
12:18:36 <int-e> I find it hard to imagine that you could do worse than CaC.
12:19:31 <int-e> (It's possible, but basically the only reason that one would put up with CaC's QoS is their insane pricing. There's a connection between the two, I'm sure.)
12:22:41 <int-e> (I have good experience with Ramnode's support. Tickets tend to be answered in hours (sometimes minutes) rather than days or weeks if at all.)
12:25:44 <fizzie> Mm. They've got reasonable reviews, and the prices (for "standard KVM") are half of DigitalOcean's. Still looking for that mythical combination of cheap & good though.
12:26:13 <int-e> fizzie: funny thing about the wikipedia style banner... I never noticed it, because it required javascript.
12:27:13 <int-e> Yeah standard KVM (not OpenVZ because at least when I tried, it didn't have proper namespace support which I use for rudimentary sandboxing.)
12:28:18 <int-e> Anyway I just hate doing that kind of research, so tedious.
12:37:03 <fizzie> That's definitely true.
12:37:09 <fizzie> OVH is another one of those "good prices, terrible support" places, except a little more mainstream, I guess.
12:37:43 <fizzie> They also had a very written-about downtime just the other day, so we might feel right at home. ;)
12:38:23 <fizzie> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/09/ovh_datacenters_go_titsup/
12:39:30 <int-e> Huh, I missed that terrible blunder.
12:41:00 <int-e> https://www.1blu.de/server/vserver/ is one of those too good to be true offers
12:41:43 <fizzie> There's also hostens.com, which I'm amused by simply because it sounds so much like the bed company.
12:44:19 <fizzie> They have surprisingly good user reviews, wonder if they're gaming the system somehow.
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12:52:45 <int-e> "Essentially, there wasn't sufficient redundancy in its power supply lines, so when one cable failed, it all went down, down, down." Can we call this "overcommitted redundancy"? I mean, VPS hosting is all about overcommitment...
13:10:43 <fizzie> Think I'll setup my readonly backup copy again, while we're waiting.
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13:31:30 <fizzie> Backup copy should be up, as soon as your DNS caches expire, or directly at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ (should've added that as subjectAltName in the certificate...)
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17:32:32 <zzo38> Can the compression algorithm I have implemented in ffcut.c to be proved optimal for that file format? Is it even optimal, or not?
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22:33:03 <zzo38> I have experimented another way to compress the map data. Dynamic tiles help with compression (as well as making the editor quicker to use), but then it also uses RLE with three kind of runs, and stores data in a boustrophedon order as well. The three kind of runs are: homogeneous runs, heterogeneous runs, and copy-above runs.
22:33:17 <zzo38> Here is a hexdump of one compressed map (with a five byte header): 3c 00 1a 00 00 0f 31 18 2e 20 32 df ad 55 3d b1 29 2e b2 55 3d b0 1b 2e 05 35 e0 ab 06 36 3c 2e fe aa 11 2e 26 33 c1 06 34 55 3d 15 34 e4 aa 55 3d 25 33 db ab
22:34:35 <zzo38> Code 255 is currently not defined; it is meant for back references, but how back references are working currenly is not defined or implemented. Do you perhaps have any kind of better idea about this?
22:37:17 <diginet> I have a question: there was a BF derivative I was reading about that got rid of the [] and replaced them with something else, does anyone know what that was?
22:38:32 <zzo38> I know there are such thing but I also don't know what it is
23:00:17 <fizzie> diginet: Just different symbols, or something with different semantics?
23:00:39 <diginet> fizzie: different semantics
23:04:57 <fizzie> Some variants that have an implicit loop around the whole program, and then replace [] with some other control structure.
23:05:00 <fizzie> There's 207 pages in the "Brainfuck derivatives" category on the wiki. :/
23:06:24 <Slereah__> Brainfuck is a very easy language to grasp and modify
23:06:35 <Slereah__> Hell it was invented twice independantly
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00:09:12 <LKoen> diginet: there are at least ten that replace [] with function calls
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00:24:36 <Slereah__> how many of them are just Brainfuck with a cypher on top
00:24:48 <Slereah__> Replace the symbols with names of US presidents or whatever
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00:31:10 <fizzie> If you mean about all the BF derivatives, we do have a separate "Brainfuck equivalents" category as well, which has 50 languages in it.
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21:29:39 <zzo38> Do you have any more RPG maps that I may be able to test my map compression method with?
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23:03:15 <PinealGlandOptic> what is better: map file to memory or read it to memory? given the fact then it will be parsed as a whole after reading
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23:07:45 <fizzie> There might not necessarily be much of a difference, since what the system fundamentally needs to do in both cases (copy some data from a storage device into memory) is pretty similar. But the mapping approach can be more convenient, and have some performance advantages (might have less system calls, no need to ever swap since the data is sort of already swapped by definition).
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23:43:25 <PinealGlandOptic> has anybody hard about API to file UNIX command? so not to spawn it ...
23:43:32 <PinealGlandOptic> has anybody heard about API to file UNIX command? so not to spawn it ...
23:54:24 -!- Rodger has changed nick to Roger9.
23:57:18 <Roger9> Format/OS/whatever that uses "Over." as a newline, as opposed to "\n", "\r\n", or "\r".
23:57:25 <Roger9> Then "Out." to mark the end of a file.
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00:02:06 <fizzie> PinealGlandOptic: The library used by one implementation of 'file' (e.g. the one in Debian/Ubuntu) is called 'magic', which you can link to and use programmatically.
00:02:38 <fizzie> See https://linux.die.net/man/3/libmagic for example.
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01:41:50 <doesthiswork> I came up with a great idea for a language for programming in the large. Whenever you call a user defined function you have to specify the exact value of the result. If the actual result doesn't match what you provided, the program quits.
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01:58:41 <doesthiswork> Oh, yes I was assumeing that the functions had to be defined before being used. Forward references are a sloppy practice
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02:02:20 <alercah> doesthiswork: except that then functions would be entirely useless
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02:06:24 <doesthiswork> Best practice is functions for their self documenting names. That is still an important purpose
02:10:50 <Roger9> I'd agree with alercah.
02:12:41 <alercah> doesthiswork: That's removed if you have to repeat the definition anyway.
02:12:52 <alercah> It might as well just be a local variable.
02:14:12 <doesthiswork> That's a good point. Local variables are are underconstrained, and can be used as a loophole.
02:14:50 <alercah> x = f[results in y + 2](y)
02:14:54 <alercah> you might well say x = y+2
02:15:01 <alercah> x_f = y+2 to preserve the name
02:15:36 <doesthiswork> Perhaps you should recapitulate how the variable got the value it has every time you use it, so you don't get it confused with other variables
02:16:54 <doesthiswork> treating it kind of like a 0 argument function
02:17:26 <alercah> I suppose you could do that
02:17:35 <alercah> But then, again, why have a variable?
02:17:42 <alercah> Why not simply write the expression inline everywhere
02:17:52 <alercah> since every experession would need a full expansion of everything
02:18:05 <alercah> and you'd lose mutable state
02:19:06 <doesthiswork> because variables are an important component of abstraction and generalization. Getting rid of them entirely would make the program harder to read
02:19:35 <alercah> But this would be equivalent to that
02:19:46 <alercah> If I write x = y[definition of y]+2
02:20:00 <alercah> then to use x I have to write z = x[definition of x, which includes definition of y]*2
02:20:11 <alercah> I can't use any values without retyping the entire code leading up to them
02:20:15 <alercah> defeating the point of abstraction
02:21:09 <doesthiswork> Well, people can get confused when things get too abstract. Its good to have concrete examples to help explicate and ground it.
02:22:23 <doesthiswork> Maybe it would be more efficient if the compiler substituted in the definitions for you
02:24:06 <doesthiswork> So you wouldn't have to spend time typing redundant information. I think you have a good point
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02:41:04 <alercah> If the compiler substitutes the definitions then isn't that the same as not requiring them in the ifrst place?
02:52:55 <doesthiswork> No, because if you didn't require them then it would be easy to call the wrong function by mistake.
02:54:10 <alercah> But if the compiler is substituting definitions in
02:54:14 <alercah> then there is no guarantee
02:54:21 <alercah> since the compiler will just provide the wrong one
03:01:11 <doesthiswork> Ok, so it needs some extra redundancy to cat the compiler substitution errors. Maybe you could type in a hash that should match what the compiler will substitute in. This would protect against the compiler makeing the wrong substitution
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14:08:58 <ais523> watered: it's about esoteric programming
14:21:38 <watered> any interesting accomplishments of this language?
14:22:22 <ais523> it's not a single language, esoteric programming languages are basically the entire family of languages for which being useful to use in practice is not a primary goal
14:23:04 <ais523> there are a number of other reasons to write languages, e.g. to learn how to write languages, to explore the edges of what's possible in programming, as art
14:23:49 <ais523> you can prove plenty of things with esoteric programming languages, but they're mostly confined to other esoteric programming languages
14:23:57 <ais523> some of the most practical proofs I've been seen have been related to exploits in other programs
14:24:17 <ais523> showing that you can exploit the bug to do anything via implementing an esolang (= esoteric programming language) usnig it
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15:00:51 <Slereah_> Actually esoteric languages are very useful for computation theory
15:01:16 <Slereah_> IIRC the proof for the control structure theorem was done in the original brainfuck
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18:46:34 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
18:53:02 <fizzie> I'm still planning to move it to some slightly more reputable host, and ask (in a tasteful way, y'know) for people to contribute to the costs (est. around $5/month).
18:53:09 <fizzie> I was thinking we might have an "Esolang:Backers" page (or some such), where you could get your name on by donating (and opting in). Let me know if you find this offensive / have other objections / thoughts.
18:58:49 <ais523> I'm not offended by the request
18:59:32 <ais523> I find sending money over the Internet to be a huge hassle though, to the extent that I tend not to be responsive to requests for money because the act of sending it is so complex
19:02:10 <fizzie> That's fair. I believe receiving it is pretty complicated as well, though I got some tips from a random person who emailed me re the note I had left on top of the backup wiki copy.
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19:44:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: also, transferring money online, as opposed to paying with money online, when it's in a foreign currency, has a high constant fee at my bank, so it's not really practical. whereas anything on paypal has a high percentage fee.
19:46:15 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sending banknotes in an envelope has a low enough fee, but is not insured.
19:47:14 <fizzie> Yeah, most of the things I've looked at have had percentage fees attached. Not sure if I'd call them "high", but still.
19:48:52 <fizzie> Maybe we should just be selling my fungot T-shirt design online, it's already got an esolangs.org link on it. ;)
19:48:52 <fungot> fizzie: they say that eating royal jelly attracts grizzly owlbears. ( travels and researches in south africa, by e. howard, bjorn nyberg, and the light but warm silken stuff that the ladies were accustomed to wearing luxurious clothings and so he flew along the slender catwalk that still seemed awfully insubstantial to flynn, though they are quite difficult to kill large animals... their lower teeth fit perfectly into the requi
19:49:03 <wob_jonas> fizzie: it's tricky, because they always list their nominal fees for various operations, such as transfer or payment, and those are low. but paypal insists that I can only send HUF to my account, and they're only willing to charge my bank card in HUF, and convert currency themselves, and they convert it very expensively, whereas my bank converts th
19:49:32 <wob_jonas> They are clearly doing that to add a hidden fee, because my bank can handle charges on my bank card in any reasonable currency.
19:50:32 <fizzie> Yeah. I think I had some PayPal worries when moving from Finland to UK as well, they seem pretty strict about the account being tied to a particular country and having one currency.
19:50:38 <fizzie> Will have to investigate more, I guess.
19:50:52 <fizzie> Of course there's always BitCoin.
19:51:56 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, my brother complained even more about it, since he lives in Sweden, and had troubles with telling paypal that
19:52:26 <wob_jonas> fizzie: it's like a lot of commercial wobsites on the internet are optimized to the case when they can guess your country and language from your IP.
19:52:35 <wob_jonas> And they never allow you to second guess.
19:53:02 <wob_jonas> Like, there's websites for scientific publishers that serve journal articles for free to "developing countries".
19:53:59 <wob_jonas> And this is international websites, not the websites of all-Hungarian stores, which are even worse.
19:54:39 <wob_jonas> In particular, mediamarkt.hu has a most terrible website for online orders, but since there are only like seven big electronics stores in Hungary, you can't just choose another one.
19:55:37 <wob_jonas> I hope the post will eventually just kick them in the butt for sending mass packages with improperly printed addresses.
19:56:14 <wob_jonas> And then they won't be able to offer free or cheap postage.
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19:59:48 <fizzie> I'm paying Finnish VAT rates for my DigitalOcean host instead of the UK ones, because they don't let you set the VAT country, it's forced to be the country of the bank issuing the credit card you're paying with. (And the Finnish card has better currency conversion than the UK one.)
20:01:36 <wob_jonas> fizzie: which one of those has a higher VAT for that?
20:01:46 <fizzie> Finland, unfortunately.
20:04:01 <shachaf> Does that make up for the higher VAT?
20:04:48 <fizzie> shachaf: I think that's what I ended up getting, when I tried to check.
20:05:06 <fizzie> Although I have a vague feeling I shouldn't be able to choose, but the VAT should be based on residency.
20:06:00 <wob_jonas> I've no idea how it's supposed to work
20:06:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I don't know. It's not like there's a physical location where they're selling the thing.
20:07:12 <int-e> I also think that's how it works in theory (residency).
20:09:03 <int-e> but giving a false address is probably easier than giving a bank account in a different country...
20:09:56 <shachaf> just move somewhere with no VAT hth
20:09:59 <int-e> (I expect that nobody's verifying that address.)
20:10:12 <shachaf> How do I find out my credit card's exchange rates?
20:10:34 <int-e> pay with it and let yourself be surprised?
20:10:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ask your bank. my bank has a homepage on the internet, and if you dig through all the legalese that is deliberately written confusing so you don't understand it, and phone them up to clear up ambiguities, you can usually figure out everything.
20:11:15 <int-e> (the real answer is to read the terms of service, which *should* tell you how the bank handles foreign currency transactions)
20:11:17 <wob_jonas> I think most banks have similar homepages.
20:11:24 <shachaf> Most of my credit/debit cards have a foreign transaction fee.
20:11:35 <shachaf> Recently I got one that doesn't (it should arrive in the mail soon)
20:12:09 <int-e> I think they add about 3% to the official exchange rate in my case.
20:12:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: not high ones though. they have a high fee for foreign transfers, and a higher than usual fee for withdrawing cash in foreign countries, but for just card or online payment they only use a currency sell exchange rate which has a low margin.
20:12:55 <int-e> But I didn't check.
20:13:09 <shachaf> I think the usual fee is around 3%
20:13:16 <wob_jonas> I'm quite sure they don't add a fee for foreign currency payments for me.
20:14:14 <int-e> I'd expect it to be hidden in the exchange rate.
20:15:14 <shachaf> But if they can set the exchange rate 3% higher, they can do the same thing even if you do pay an additional fee.
20:15:24 <shachaf> Also foreign transactions can be USD, I think.
20:16:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: the sell and buy exchange rate for that definitely differ, but nothing as big as 3% is hidden there.
20:17:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: for transfers, they charge the very high flat rate if the destination is a bank account not in Hungary or the currency is not HUF. for payment, neither matters.
20:17:36 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure about foreign currency withdrawal for ATM, I've never needed to check that.
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20:24:53 <shachaf> "We're sorry, but we're currently upgrading our Website."
20:25:03 <shachaf> Who upgrades their website during business hours?
20:34:46 <wob_jonas> shachaf: business hours where? It's in the night!
20:35:06 <shachaf> This website has "us" in the domain name
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21:12:28 <\oren\> I should write an antivirus that actually just mines bitcoins when you scan
21:14:03 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, there already exist malware masquarading as an antivirus
21:14:16 <wob_jonas> I don't know if there's a bitcoin mining one in particular, but in general these exist
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22:13:56 <wob_jonas> fungot, why did I try to look up best practices when I already know what I want the answer to be? now I just have to worry I'm not doing what the interweb says.
22:13:57 <fungot> wob_jonas: they say that a fortune only has 1 line and you should call your armor before sitting on a strictly cartesian sense.
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22:17:03 <int-e> so the advantage of asking fungot is that you won't know what the answer will be?
22:17:03 <fungot> int-e: they say that nurses sometimes carry scalpels and never use a unicorn horn means you've missed the bunch. turning round again with a face of the stone would fall again. ( i wandered lonely as a cloud in fear. the christian calendar adopted the same fashion that a wizard!"
22:17:49 <HackEgo> horn:Horn is the reduction system behind Prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns. \ ipu:IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
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22:18:13 <HackEgo> <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/prolog/Prolog/\' wisdom/horn \ <b_jonäs> learn Horn is the reduction system behind prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns.
22:18:30 <wob_jonas> yeah, it looked like one of mine but I didn't remember setting it
22:18:48 <HackEgo> 7107:2016-03-06 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/prolog/Prolog/\' wisdom/horn \ 7105:2016-03-06 <b_jonäs> learn Horn is the reduction system behind prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns.
22:19:00 <int-e> not so recent I guess
22:19:24 <wob_jonas> yeah, but few of my wisdoms are recent anyway
22:19:41 <HackEgo> 8400:2016-06-08 <oerjän> sled wisdom/submarine jousting//s/./S/ \ 8399:2016-06-07 <boil̈y> le/rn submarine jousting/submarine jousting is unexplainable. \ 8398:2016-06-07 <boil̈y> le/rn submarine jousting/This is unexplainable.
22:19:58 <HackEgo> The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts
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22:58:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53361 * Fizzie * (+2919) esolangs.org hosting funding proposal
23:01:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53362&oldid=52884 * Fizzie * (+69) (Temporary) link to "Esolang talk:Funding" for visibility
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23:54:20 <HackEgo> olist 1105: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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01:52:25 <ais523> hi Downgoat, Downgoat_
01:52:40 <Downgoat_> I think I IRCd incorrcetly which is why they are two downgoat :|
01:52:47 <ais523> apart from connecting twice you seem to have done everything correctly
01:53:03 <ais523> other one's a ghost by the look of things, it'll probably time out in a couple of minutes
01:53:30 <ais523> Downgoat's a regular at PPCG, they're apparently discussing making a new golfing site too and are much further on than we are
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01:54:01 <ais523> no, only a few of us are
01:54:07 <shachaf> I'm not on PPCG but I like code golf.
01:54:24 <ais523> code golf is fairly popular here because there's a lot of overlap, but few people here actually golf regularly
01:54:44 <ais523> sometimes I look at PPCG and have a go at a question if it looks sufficiently interesting, but (after deleting my account) I've only posted once
01:54:51 <Downgoat> well our current code is hosted on GH here: https://github.com/Mego/PPCG-v2
01:54:58 <ais523> because the site works so much better when it's not trying to force you to get rep
01:55:08 <Downgoat> and for those who use stackexchange we have a chat here: https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/68212/ppcg-v2
01:55:24 <Downgoat> but we have auth, posts, markdown rendering, and we're working on other stuff
01:55:44 <Downgoat> but we don't really have a plan on what things we actually want so that's still for desciding
01:56:03 <ais523> I think some sort of automatic program runner/verifier is one of the features that a) golf sites most benefit from and b) PPCG doesn't have, although you can't use it in all contexts
01:56:30 <Downgoat> Yeah. if we're all familar with TIO, we're planning on using that heavily
01:56:36 <shachaf> How do you think a golf site should address nondeterminism like $$?
01:56:49 <ais523> anagolf's latest solution fixes that pretty neatly
01:57:04 <ais523> allow anyone to re-mark the program, it gets removed from the leaderboards if it's "magically" stopped working
01:57:22 <shachaf> So the program has to work consistently.
01:57:28 <ais523> this also means that in questions where your program is meant to work for all inputs, you can use the recheck request to submit a counterexample; that doesn't work in anagolf because it has a fairly primitive marking system
01:57:43 <shachaf> Hmm, I wonder whether people have used programs that rely on the current date.
01:57:58 <ais523> under PPCG rules your program would have to work consistently too (because requiring a particular $$ would count as an illegal form of input)
01:58:31 <shachaf> What about a program that only works in the 21st century?
01:58:37 <ais523> shachaf: on the original code golfing site, which predated anagolf and collapsed due to not having questions very often, someone used time() as a magic number once
01:59:23 <ais523> I think if you're going to write a program in http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 or something like that, having the recheck link not work is not really a huge issue
01:59:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
01:59:52 <shachaf> So that's what that's about.
01:59:54 <ais523> although I think having something like a "disputed" or even "invalid" tag that people can vote onto or off the post would be worthwhile, in cases where it's unclear whether the program complies with the rules
02:00:49 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, I see a big loophole in that implementation
02:00:55 <ais523> it should have just hardcoded the "2014"
02:01:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
02:01:45 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 79 Oct 28 2016 bin/2014 \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 80 Oct 28 2016 bin/2015
02:01:57 <ais523> `perl 'system "bin/2014" "2017"'
02:01:58 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "'system "bin/2014" "2017"'": No such file or directory
02:02:04 <ais523> `perl-e 'system "bin/2014" "2017"'
02:02:08 <ais523> `perl-e system "bin/2014" "2017"
02:02:09 <HackEgo> String found where operator expected at -e line 1, near ""bin/2014" "2017"" \ (Missing operator before "2017"?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near ""bin/2014" "2017"" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
02:02:17 <HackEgo> 5227:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> sed -i \'s/2014/$(basename "$0")/\' bin/2014 \ 5219:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` chmod +x bin/2014 \ 5218:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "fi" >> bin/2014 \ 5217:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "then echo \\"Hello, world!\\"" >> bin/2014 \ 5216:2014-12-31 <Tanëb> ` echo "if [ \\$(date +%Y) = \\"2014\\" ]" >> bin/2014 \ 5215:2014-12-3
02:02:23 <fizzie> ais523: I didn't even know we were discussing making a golfing site.
02:02:28 <HackEgo> 6472:2015-12-31 <oerjän> revert \ 6471:2015-12-31 <izaber̈a> ` sed -i s/!// bin/2015 \ 5231:2015-01-02 <oerjän> ` cp bin/201{4,5}; sed -i \'s/=/!=/\' bin/2015 \ 5230:2015-01-02 <oerjän> rm bin/2015 \ 5229:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> ` ln bin/2014 bin/2015 \ 5228:2015-01-02 <nortẗi> rm bin/2015 \ 5226:2015-01-02 <oerjän> ` cp bin/201{4,5}; sed
02:02:35 <ais523> fizzie: we did a couple of times, I'm not sure if you were there at the time
02:02:42 <shachaf> fizzie: I think we were mostly discussing how we wouldn't do it.
02:02:57 <shachaf> You participated saying you wouldn't do it, if I remember correctly.
02:03:08 <fizzie> Yes, though I don't think ais523 was here at *that* time.
02:03:42 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017"
02:03:52 <shachaf> Is your code golf site going to support multiple metrics to optimize?
02:03:55 <ais523> hmm, I finally got the right syntax, but it still doesn't work? probably the path is wrong
02:04:02 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $@
02:04:06 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $!
02:04:16 <ais523> `perl-e system {"bin/2014"} "2017" or die $?
02:04:16 <shachaf> You can measure things other than program length.
02:04:26 <ais523> OK, Perl, now you're just screwing with me
02:04:35 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/2014"} "2017"
02:05:25 <ais523> this is normally the point at which I'd attach a debugger but that's kind-of hard in HackEgo
02:06:24 <shachaf> `runc execl("bin/2014", "2017", NULL);
02:06:37 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/nonexistent-executable"} "2017"
02:06:50 <ais523> OK, so it is finding the executable
02:06:55 <ais523> `perl-e print system {"bin/2014"} "bin/2017"
02:07:18 <shachaf> `` echo $'#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nprint sys.argv\n' > tmp/args && chmod +x tmp/args
02:07:26 <shachaf> `runc execl("tmp/args", "2017", NULL);
02:07:32 <shachaf> `runc execl("/hackenv/tmp/args", "2017", NULL);
02:07:47 <HackEgo> ['/hackenv/tmp/args', 'abc']
02:08:15 <shachaf> `perl-e print system {"pwd"} "pwd"
02:08:23 <fizzie> Pet nitpicking opportunity: that should be (char *)NULL.
02:08:54 <ais523> fizzie: I misread "Pet" as "Perl", and tried to figure out how that could possibly hep
02:09:13 <ais523> Downgoat: as you can see, this channel tends to get sidetracked fairly easily
02:09:41 <shachaf> `runc execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL);
02:09:42 <fizzie> shachaf: The intention was "no, it wouldn't help", I think.
02:10:07 <shachaf> fizzie: Maybe you can use your C lawyer skills to figure out what's going wrong there?
02:10:30 <Downgoat> ais523: idk I lost track like 10 minutes ago
02:10:38 <fizzie> There's no automatic main wrapping or any other fancitude with `runc.
02:10:54 <shachaf> I must be thinking of another command or another bot.
02:10:56 <fizzie> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:09 <fizzie> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("/bin/ls", "/bin/ls", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:12 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
02:11:17 <fizzie> Feel free to carry on.
02:11:33 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("bin/2014", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:43 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("tmp/args", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:11:59 <ais523> maybe the current bin/2014 wouldn't work even in 2014?
02:12:39 <ais523> hmm, that implies it's probably working
02:12:43 <shachaf> Oh, it's because it's Python, isn't it.
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02:14:06 <shachaf> I bet the Python interpreter is doing something to mess up argv[0]
02:14:31 <shachaf> `` echo $'#include <stdio.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) { while (*argv) { puts(*argv++); } }\n' > /tmp/args.c && gcc -o tmp/args /tmp/args.c
02:14:47 <shachaf> `runc #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { execl("tmp/args", "2017", (char *)NULL); }
02:15:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
02:15:23 <fizzie> "If bash is invoked with a file of commands, $0 is set to the name of that file."
02:15:35 <shachaf> Ah, I was about to make a shell script to test that behavior.
02:15:47 <fizzie> That might apply also if it's invoked "with a file of commands" via "#!".
02:15:52 <ais523> yes, it would I thiink
02:16:37 <shachaf> ais523: What would be interesting to optimize other than byte count?
02:16:47 <shachaf> Speed and memory usage are a bit passé
02:17:29 <ais523> shachaf: the most interesting non-pure-golf problems are either optimizing some property of the source related but not identical to bytecount (number of unique characters is a common one, typically won by Unary or Lenguage)
02:18:01 <ais523> and challenges where your program has to work in as many ways as possible (e.g. run in as many languages as possible), often with a size limit or hybrid scoring
02:18:06 <ais523> radiation-hardening is fun too but kind-of niche
02:18:08 <shachaf> whoa, I expected you to say "optimising"
02:18:25 <ais523> shachaf: I've completely given up on -ise versus -ize
02:18:34 <shachaf> Radiation-hardening sounds like fun.
02:18:41 <ais523> like, I don't know which one's meant to be British English and which one's meant to be American English
02:18:45 <ais523> or if they're both both, or what
02:18:51 <ais523> nobody seems to know or care any more
02:19:01 <ais523> and it's mostly only a problem when it comes to naming identifiers, because you have to be consistent
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02:35:52 <ais523> huh, I just realised that I can hear my spam filter working
02:36:11 <ais523> I heard some sounds from the hard disk and thought "huh, I must have received an email"
02:36:16 <ais523> and the notification popped up a few seconds later
02:37:52 <shachaf> Your hard disk still makes sounds?
02:38:35 <ais523> the nice thing about rotational hard drives is that you can get a huge amount of storage for a small price
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02:56:41 <fizzie> Hmm. I was reading HMRC guidance, and it seems to me that esolangs.org would fall under the "charitable purposes" category.
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02:57:34 <fizzie> (The thing about HMRC-recognised charities is, donations to them are eligible for a thing called Gift Aid.)
02:57:58 <ais523> fizzie: it has to be explicitly registered as a charity, IIRC
02:58:07 <ais523> which probably comes with a number of legal requirements
02:58:32 <ais523> I think you could probably make the case that it's a charity, but the legal overhead for actually setting it up might well be too great
02:58:58 <shachaf> fizzie: What about your employer's donation matching?
02:59:35 <fizzie> You don't need to register with the Commission unless the yearly income of the charity exceeds £5000, or it's structured as a company.
02:59:46 <ais523> also I think gift aid would only be helpful from brits
03:00:07 <fizzie> You would need to apply for recognition from HMRC, but that seemed more lightweight.
03:00:11 <ais523> because the point is that you're donating part of your income to charity, so the government "matches" that with the tax revenue from the same amount of income
03:00:28 <ais523> and that implies that the income had british tax paid on it in the first place
03:01:40 <fizzie> Sure, I was mostly thinking about my own donations.
03:02:50 <fizzie> "To be a charitable aim for the public benefit, education must be capable of being ‘advanced’. This means to promote, sustain and increase individual and collective knowledge and understanding of specific areas of study, skills and expertise. -- The types of charities that are capable of advancing education include: information media such as the internet, --"
03:05:01 <fizzie> There was some bit about how it shouldn't benefit a "narrow group" (but I don't think that was meant to rule out things most people simply aren't interested in), and a bunch of restrictions of what a charity can do.
03:14:28 <fizzie> https://www.gov.uk/setting-up-charity/structures -- the last two don't have a corporate structure (so can't e.g. employ people or enter contracts, and the trustees keep personal responsibility), but as far as I can tell are still eligible for HMRC recognition.
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03:19:10 <fizzie> Though to be fair, while the wiki might qualify, fitting something like HackEgo under the "charitable purposes" label would be a bit of a stretch.
03:21:26 <fizzie> shachaf: For that, I would need to nominate the organisation first.
03:22:23 <fizzie> (I think it would be eligible per the guidelines.)
03:23:38 <fizzie> Also, another thing I've not been able to find out is the minimum number of trustees. (They need to be "fit and proper", to boot.)
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03:34:18 <doesthiswork> if you have to choose a name for the organization. fhtagn makes an excellent acronym
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03:48:45 <Downgoat> ais523: would voting on posts/questions be a good idea?
03:49:32 <ais523> Downgoat: well some questions are better than others, but the voting tends not to work out that well at PPCG
03:49:50 <ais523> normally questions get upvoted if they're easy, and although that's a popular type of question, it's not one that's universally liked
03:49:59 <ais523> perhaps it'd be better to have voting on categories rather than a single vote
03:50:19 <ais523> like, maybe you upvote a tag really high on a question if you think the question is really interesting to people who like that tag
03:52:56 <ais523> out of my two highest-upvoted questions, one is really good, the other fairly dubious, and I can't remember offhand which is higher
03:53:38 <ais523> good one's at 171, bad one at 89
03:53:44 <ais523> so at least the votes worked in that case
03:53:47 <ais523> it took a while, though!
03:55:07 <Downgoat> btw do you have any reccomendations on how question could be categorized beyond tags
03:55:13 <zzo38> I think I have read somewhere (I don't know if I remembered correctly?) that "-ize" is American (and I think also Canadian), while both "-ise" and "-ize" is British. I am not sure though.
03:55:33 <ais523> Downgoat: ideally it'd help people find the sort of questions they wanted, which is based on solution techniques
03:55:59 <ais523> and that can be very hard to figure out in advance
03:56:02 <ais523> so there might not be a good solution
03:56:29 <ais523> you can often guess in advance whether a winning solution is more algorithmic, more declarative, or more about microgolfing, though
03:56:45 <Downgoat> maybe like 'bookmark' or 'star' posts you personally want to reference
03:56:55 <ais523> (there's also [kolmogorov-complexity] which is very different from the rest of golfing, but it's already self-contained enough as it is)
03:57:06 <ais523> SE has a starring feature already, I (surprisingly!) have no problem with it
03:57:17 <shachaf> Why is kolmogolf different from other golf?
03:57:27 <zzo38> Actually "advertise" is "-ise" everywhere I think. I just looked it up in Wiktionary; it says "advertize" is archaic.
03:58:37 <ais523> shachaf: having long constant strings as an important part of the solution is normally looked down on in golfing as the question becomes about optimizing those rather than about the rest of the question
03:58:55 <ais523> and compression in that form can require some highly specialised techniques and things outside the normal goal of the language
03:59:08 <ais523> normally you're trying to spot and exploit patterns, rather than work out a clever algorithm
03:59:29 <shachaf> Isn't all golfing about Kolmogorov complexity?
03:59:46 <ais523> shachaf: well, sort of, but kolmogolf is specifically about when you have a fixed output to produce
03:59:59 <ais523> and the output chosen is normally ascii-art or the like, something with a repetitive but not uniform structure
04:00:15 <ais523> I guess you could think of regular golf being about writing functions, which run with no exceptions
04:00:22 <ais523> and kolmogolf about encoding the exceptions
04:02:13 <ais523> I'm not a huge fan of kolmogolf
04:02:39 <shachaf> How often is the most efficient algorithm implemented as eval + kolmogolf?
04:02:49 <ais523> I like reverse-kolmogolf but got disillusioned with it because I normally took much longer to write my answers than everyone else so didn't get upvotes even though they were IMO way more interesting (and shorter) than the other answers
04:02:58 <ais523> shachaf: it mostly only happens in PHP for some reason
04:03:15 <ais523> not on PPCG, because PHP isn't that popular there and because people don't often think of it
04:03:21 <ais523> but all the time on anagolf
04:04:42 <ais523> here's an example of reverse-kolmogolf (full disclosure: this is one of my questions): https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/105303
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04:08:49 <ais523> basically you have to recognise a large number of large inputs, but you know the input will be one of those, so you only have to focus on the differences and don't have to recognise the whole thing
04:09:20 <shachaf> Now that you deleted your account, you no longer post referral links, which I like.
04:09:26 <shachaf> I can't stand stackexchange referral links.
04:10:13 <ais523> shachaf: I got massively downvoted for complaining about some badges being seen by some people as a negative
04:10:41 <ais523> I mentioned the badge for people visiting your referral links as an example of that, thinking about you when I did
04:11:04 <ais523> that said, if you can get the badge for yourself, you can just as easily inflict it on someone else by editing the link, as there's no authentication on it
04:11:11 <ais523> and the badge is all it does
04:11:28 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you have any badges of shame?
04:13:31 <ais523> the badges are really counterproductive in many ways, though, for example the fact that you got a badge for filling out your profile incentivised me to not do it
04:13:43 <ais523> because I could always choose to do it later but I could never get rid of the badge
04:14:24 <ais523> I thought I'd be OK for it for something that was actually a game
04:14:27 <ais523> but I wasn't, the incentives are all wrong
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07:21:25 <zzo38> If you want to store a PC text screen (or anything that is close enough) with variable width and height, one format to use would be MZM, I think is work for such purpose.
07:22:36 <zzo38> The format is same like PC video memory but with a header that specifies the width and height.
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07:30:29 <variable> google doesn't show anything :\
07:32:03 <zzo38> Here is a description that I wrote myself: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/mzm.form
07:32:43 <zzo38> MegaZeux is capable of reading and writing this format, although it supports a superset of what I described. The subset I described is a subset which can be suitable for programs other than MegaZeux too.
07:33:49 <variable> unrelated: I've long wanted to write my own video *container* format - though certainly not an encoding
07:34:01 <variable> lots of features I want that nothing seems to provide
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07:35:57 <zzo38> What is it you wanted? I also made up such a container format, based on Ogg, but it is a bit different in order to avoid some of the problems of Ogg without adding the problems of other formats too, and without adding too much complexity.
07:36:41 <variable> the main thing I want is layers
07:37:17 <zzo38> Can you perhaps elaborate on that?
07:37:20 <variable> for example, sending a video, and an overlay with say bounding boxes, etc
07:37:40 <variable> the second thing I want is transformations-in-container as a layer
07:37:59 <variable> zzo38: so, lets say I have a standard video, but I want to be able to block out parts of it as a user-selectable action
07:38:06 <variable> or I want to insert shapes on top
07:38:32 <variable> or enable "high contrast mode" or "distorted mode" or whatever the change the underlying video is
07:38:39 <variable> i.e., I want composable videos
07:38:54 <zzo38> OK, although that seem then the layer codec may be need to add on.
07:39:07 <zzo38> This is my design: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/glogg
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07:41:07 <zzo38> Relation fields in the control block could be used to specify relations between different streams (whether with same or different codecs) if needed, so you could make the relation to the overlay with the video, or whatever.
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07:56:23 <Challenger5> Does anybody remember something about a lang with a really weird type system?
07:57:01 <Challenger5> As in, there were like 1-2 builtins that were so polymorphic they functioned as the standard library
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08:05:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ModanShogi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53363 * Zzo38 * (+469) Created page with "The example program is not a valid sequence of moves in a shogi game (whether the pieces start in the normal starting position for the game or otherwise). Both players have a..."
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17:28:59 <b_jonas> So I ordered a new mobile phone. But when choosing it, I found that Nokia is no longer making mobile phones like they used to, so
17:30:16 <b_jonas> even though my approx. seven years old Nokia mobile phone has non-flat keypad, flash for the camera, and a camera resolution greater than 640x480, I absolutely can't buy a new Nokia mobile phone satisfying those three criteria at the same time.
17:32:35 <b_jonas> The Nokia 216 has non-flat keypad, camera flash, but (two) 640x480 pixel cameras.
17:33:29 <david3x3x3> yeah, cell phone form factors lack a lot of variety recently
17:33:43 <david3x3x3> it's almost impossible to find a good qwerty phone these days
17:33:52 <b_jonas> The Nokia 230 has large resolution main camera and camera flash, but a flat keypad.
17:34:56 <b_jonas> Nokia 130 apparently doesn't have a camera, or at least they're hiding it well.
17:37:20 <b_jonas> The Nokia 3310 has non-flat keypad, high-res camera, camera flash, ... wait, why didn't I buy that one?
17:37:48 <b_jonas> I guess it just looks bad in genera
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18:54:31 <Roger9> "A function that returns the current continuation. When this continuation is invoked, an array of the arguments passed will be substituted and returned by the function instead." Is there a function like this already (well, has someone thought of it yet)? I can seem to remember reading about it, but IDK.
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19:00:13 <zzo38> There is "law of excluded middle" continuation; is it similar to what you intended?
19:06:05 <Roger9> I'm going to check, but yes, that is what I remember reading about.
19:08:10 <b_jonas> Roger9: um, I don't understand your question. is that just an ordinar call-cc with a trivial wrapper around it, like (lambda (f) (let-values ((a (call/cc f))) a))) in scheme?
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19:10:21 <b_jonas> Roger9: um, try to give an example to clarify your definition then?
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19:10:57 <b_jonas> also no, the above code doesn't wrok
19:11:21 <b_jonas> how the heck did call/cc work in scheme, let me try to understand this
19:14:07 <b_jonas> (lambda (f) (call/cc (lambda (e) (f (lambda a (apply e a)))))) might be cleaner
19:14:47 <b_jonas> (lambda (f) (call/cc (lambda (e) (f (lambda a (e a)))))) might be cleaner, ignore the previous one
19:16:43 <zzo38> I have this Haskell code I wrote from before: lemCC = callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left)); The other way around define also is possible: callCC x = lemCC >>= either return x;
19:16:56 <Roger9> http://paste.ubuntu.com/25962691/
19:17:31 <zzo38> (I don't know what would be the corresponding way in Scheme)
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19:22:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: the way I interpreted the question involves a vararg function, so it probably doesn't relate to that Haskell thing you typed above
19:22:42 <b_jonas> but I don't understand what that Haskell thing you typed does
19:27:30 <zzo38> :t callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left))
19:27:32 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => m (Either a (a -> m c))
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19:32:07 <zzo38> It is a law of excluded middle continuation.
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23:42:47 <HackEgo> 1/2:adopted//"Oh lord, we've adopted another one." (about Emily) => Marten realizes what kind of webcomic he lives in in http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2298 \ fugal//Fugals are fictitious flower parts. \ lachine//Lachine is an unholy portal to China, closely guarded from Ëvil by Roujo. \ fish//Come and dance and love the fis
23:42:53 <HackEgo> 2/2:h! Mister Disco summoned it. \ space//Humans come from space. In particular, the part of space that has Earth in it.
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09:00:36 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6IhK6x_gDo
09:00:39 <\oren\> crazy how he can interleave two weapons like that
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12:08:25 <b_jonas> Question. Is there a practical cheap source of something coke bottles, in that it's a liquid container with volume around 0.5 liter or 1 liter that closes airtight even after mechanical stress, but that are different enough from coke bottles that I can put poisonous liquids in them and be sure it won't be mistaken for a drinkable liquid?
12:10:30 <b_jonas> Alternately, a practical and cheap way to mark coke bottles somehow for such a purpose, such that the marking is durable to mechanical stress and washing with water and soap and alcohol and rubbing (but not necessarily to washing with petrol or other solvents)?
12:17:22 <b_jonas> The existance of such a thing might be a logical impossibility, because such a container would automatically be a practical way for storing drinks, and so would actually be used for storing drinks, and so can be confused with drinks.
12:17:30 <garit> b_jonas: i think you are required to add smelly/bitter components to poisons to avoid accidental consumption
12:18:29 <b_jonas> garit: yes, that's a possible solution too, but in that case, is there some practical and cheap bitter component that I can add at home?
12:18:36 <garit> b_jonas: and there are thousands of bottle types, just check what productions you have local (i do have some bottles like milk bottles production nearby)
12:19:56 <garit> b_jonas: naoh even in low concentration is very unpleasant to taste, but check what is added usually
12:20:31 <Taneb> b_jonas: why do you have so much poison and what are you doing with it
12:20:37 <b_jonas> garit: there are lots of bottle types, but many aren't sold empty (I am actually buying cheap bottled water to get PET bottles for example) and ones that are sold with soap or milk are practically impossible to clean the original contents off them.
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12:21:13 <Taneb> b_jonas: you might be able to find the bottle manufacturer
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12:21:29 <garit> b_jonas: check manufacturers who do sell them empty for business, order a pallet of bottles, might be cheaper even if you wont use every bottle
12:21:38 <b_jonas> Taneb: household cleaning agents, which I want to package to a more durable or smaller container for traveling
12:22:22 <garit> cleaning agents i did see are nasty in smell already
12:23:14 <b_jonas> garit: natrium hydroxide? seriously? I mean, that one is more scary than almost all the things I have at my house already. I don't know what it's like in small quantity though.
12:23:22 <b_jonas> Do they seriously use natrium hydroxide for this?
12:25:11 <garit> b_jonas: as liquid cleaning agents? I guess not
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12:25:45 <garit> but at least it definitely makes ingestion almost impossible, hehe =)
12:26:03 <b_jonas> garit: some cleaning agents are nasty in smell, but some aren't. examples are (a) dishwasher rinse aid, which doesn't have a specific smell, and also is as viscous as water, (b) isopropanol, which seems to be cheaper to buy in laboratory clean version than as a mixture cleaning product.
12:26:19 <b_jonas> I don't know what dishwasher rinse aid tastes like, it might already be bitter.
12:26:29 <b_jonas> And I'm also not sure it's poisonous
12:26:40 <b_jonas> but I still don't want to get it mixed with a drink
12:26:53 <garit> I did taste the isopropanol and it was the worst thing ever. But i guess it already had some stuff added in it for a bad taste
12:27:15 <b_jonas> garit: yes, there are denatured versions with bitter additives, but the pure one doesn't taste too bad
12:27:24 <b_jonas> at least I think it doesn't, I'm not willing to try
12:28:20 <b_jonas> Heck, even if the thing isn't poisonous, I'd like a nice durable way to label bottles to distinguish between different similar liquids.
12:28:53 <b_jonas> I use sticky paper for that, but for some things like soap bottles I use in a shower that doesn't work, the label peels off quickly
12:28:58 <garit> stuff that is used in pepper spray can be bought as a powder, and if person isnt mexican or indian, he wont be able to tolerant this
12:29:31 <garit> but proper stuff thst is used works in very small concentration, so is cheaper (because you need just a droplet)
12:29:40 <b_jonas> I can use permanent marker on bottles, but for isopropanol in particular that won't work, because isopropanol solves the permanent marker ink, and even without that it sometimes smudges on some bottle surfaces.
12:30:37 <b_jonas> Pepper spray powder? Does that leave a residue? Some of the bitter additives for alcohol-based cleaners live a solid residue, which is very annoying and sometimes defeats the whole purpose of using an alcohol-based cleaner.
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12:31:27 <b_jonas> Plus, I think pepper spray powder might irritate the skin more than an alcohol-based disinfectant.
12:32:02 <garit> you can dilute it more
12:32:30 <garit> it irritates the skin only in defence-grade concentration (10% mass)
12:33:34 <garit> about 1% by mass is what some of the peppers are, but most people cant tolerate that. And 0.1% by mass is what some cultures may tolerate, so probably too few
12:34:27 <b_jonas> garit: hmm... still doesn't seem like a good idea if I want to use the isopropanol as a disinfectant, but can work if I only use it for whiteboard cleaning. would it leave a residue on the whiteboard?
12:35:02 <b_jonas> Or a residue on the cleaning rag, if I use reusable textile for that?
12:35:42 <garit> yes, 1% is quite a lot of residuals
12:36:04 <garit> and its a sugar-like component, so it might be sticky
12:37:25 <garit> If you want residual-free then you either need very low concentration (professional stuff), or quickly evaporating stuff (like acetone) - but acetone-like stuff will leave the mixture with time and it wont be so unpleasant to taste
12:37:54 <b_jonas> Actually this has turned to a specific other sub-question that I could ask on a forum: what cheap practical additive I could put in isopropanol (between 50% to 90%) that makes it have a bad taste but I can still use it as skin disinfectant, cleaning glasses, help drying bottles after washing, or cleaning whiteboard.
12:38:22 <b_jonas> It mustn't leave a residue after evaporating, and mustn't irritate the skin or even open wounds more than the isopropanol itself does.
12:38:41 <garit> Cleaning glasses would need no residuals at all, even 0.1% or so will be noticed i think
12:39:01 <b_jonas> Acetone... hmm, that might work, because it's definitely cheap and evaporates well. Is that bad tasting?
12:39:18 <b_jonas> oh. "wont be so unpleasant to taste".
12:39:26 <garit> Its not that bad in taste but it is so dense in smell that its hard to breath
12:39:36 <b_jonas> garit: exactly, and helping bottles dry also requires no residude.
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12:39:56 <garit> and people tend not to drink stuff that is so unpleasant to breathe
12:40:15 <b_jonas> if by "leaving the mixture in time" only means it evaporates quickly, that's fine for isopropanol, because that also evaporates quickly
12:40:44 <garit> Ah, i remembered now, for methanol government used kerosene and gasoline
12:41:05 <b_jonas> "and people tend not to drink stuff that is so unpleasant to breathe" => I dunno. I keep hearing of accidents about people drinking liquors (esp. pálinka) from a mineral water bottle accidentally, when they consume a large amount before realizing it's not water.
12:41:07 <garit> kerosene is a bit slow to evaporate. But gasoline is a bit faster
12:41:30 <b_jonas> gasoline doesn't have a bad smell or bad taste in small amounts I think
12:41:40 <garit> but you can add more
12:41:55 <garit> its very bitter and has distinguishable smell
12:42:05 <garit> at least in ~10% concentration
12:42:20 <garit> and leaves no residuals, evaporates a bit faster than isopropanol
12:42:29 <garit> and is about as irritating as isopropanol
12:42:31 <b_jonas> hmm... interesting. although then it might solve things I don't want to solve when used for cleaning, although for the specific examples I gave that's not a problem
12:43:31 <garit> You can simply buy denaturated methanol and add some % of it, hoping that concentration of denaturat is enough
12:44:39 <garit> substances like aromatic oils, especially cheap ones are often disgusting , btw =) can biy those too. But their smell is way too strong
12:44:49 <b_jonas> Wait, that reminds me, what's the price and composition of these denatured alcohol mixtures sold as coolant for cars?
12:44:57 <b_jonas> Could that be usable as a cleaning agent as is?
12:45:07 <b_jonas> Or does that have methanol?
12:45:33 <garit> I think its ethylene glycole + proper denaturat
12:46:02 <garit> ethylene glycole by itself is similar to isopropyl , but isn't as good
12:46:42 <b_jonas> hmm. is it watered up much?
12:46:43 <garit> Price is about the same as gasoline, may be even cheaper
12:47:06 <b_jonas> Might work if I mix it with the isopropanol.
12:47:30 <b_jonas> I'll have to look this up.
12:47:41 <garit> not by the ethylene glycol though. You will be just using that small fraction of proper densturat
12:48:04 <garit> in this case you can just buy proper denaturat. Will be cheaper
12:48:34 <b_jonas> Yes, but I can mix a large enough amount in the isopropanol, like 25% of car coolant with 75% isopropanol.
12:48:44 <b_jonas> Where do I buy the denaturant?
12:49:04 <b_jonas> I could ask in the chemical agent store or the pharmacy or something.
12:49:06 <garit> Ebay? they sell almost everything
12:49:33 <b_jonas> They sell almost everything but won't ship fire hazard liquids, which some of these are.
12:49:55 <b_jonas> They certainly shouldn't ship isopropanol or gasolene in mail.
12:50:11 <b_jonas> That's why this sort of stuff is hard to get in first place.
12:50:28 <b_jonas> I can't just order cheap denatured isopropanol from China.
12:52:19 <garit> Pyridine is used in densturated alcohol
12:56:31 <garit> Both of them smell fishy, which might be a bad idea for cleaning agent
12:57:20 <b_jonas> Also, for labeling bottles, I wonder about these sticky strips that are printed with a handhelp heat printer they sell for cheap but with expensive tapes, like Dymo. I hear they stick well. I wonder if they'd still well enough to a coke bottle.
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12:58:09 <b_jonas> garit: I think the point is that the alcohol or bleach based cleaning agent can smell bad, if that smell evaporates about as quickly as the alcohol or bleach itself.
12:58:22 <garit> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterant - 5 more things (not as smelly, but bitter)
12:58:47 <b_jonas> Because you will leave the cleaning agent to just evaporate in those cases, and while it's not evaporated, the smell should be there as a warning.
12:59:25 <b_jonas> Sort of like for the bad smelling agent for city methane gas.
13:00:03 <b_jonas> So a bad smell is a good idea for these even if you don't try to drink them.
13:01:05 <garit> all of the above dont evaporate (leave residuals)
13:01:20 <b_jonas> garit: the above what? the bitterants?
13:01:42 <garit> No,those two do evaporate. The 5 of bitter agents
13:02:41 <b_jonas> I guess for a car coolant liquid that is not a problem
13:03:00 <garit> But they are bitter in 0.08ppm. Layer will be invisible even on glasses
13:04:31 <garit> layer is invisible if its thinner than 100nm or so. For 1ppm this allow to evaporate 100mm of liquid (usual evaporation thickness is 100um or so). so up to 100ppm is safe (can't be seen even on glasses)
13:05:30 <garit> it is still can change the feel when you touch it and increase the speed of dust accumulation, but people wont notice it
13:06:21 <b_jonas> Wait, that's an idea. I could use bleach bottles! They're already used for poisonous stuff, and the bleach is easier to clean from them than soap or oily stuff from their bottles, I already buy bottles of bleach for cleaning, and some of them are durable enough.
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13:07:15 <garit> If you need more than 100 bottles - call people who actually do the bleach bottles and buy a pallet of them =)
13:07:35 <b_jonas> Lighter fluid bottles might be even better, but I don't generally buy lighter fluid so I'd have to buy them normally.
13:08:30 <b_jonas> It's not a perfect solution, but marking a bleach bottle might be better than marking a coke bottle.
13:08:56 <b_jonas> I wonder if anywhere's selling cheap bleach in half-liter bottles instead of one liter bottles.
13:09:13 <b_jonas> But even a one litter bottle is fine.
13:09:48 <b_jonas> And there's these ugly gray square-shaped bleach bottles that nobody will confuse with drink bottles.
13:10:08 <b_jonas> I still have to mark them so people don't confuse them with bleach, but it's better.
13:10:13 <garit> Kids are stupid enough to drink it anyways
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13:11:18 <b_jonas> Yes, but kids will also try to eat the dishwasher tablets and stuff like that. It's a much harder problem to kid-proof things.
13:11:31 <b_jonas> My apartment is not small-kid-proof.
13:11:51 <garit> Thats why detergents are added =) to make it kid proof
13:13:11 <b_jonas> And note that some bleach bottles have these safety caps, the ones that are supposedly kid-proof, although I don't think they really prove difficulty for a kid, that open if you press down or press on the side or something.
13:13:27 <b_jonas> Not all bleach bottles have these though.
13:13:37 <garit> Its hard to open those though
13:13:41 <b_jonas> (My vitamin bottles have such caps too.)
13:13:46 <garit> i mean physically, kids might not be strong enough
13:14:03 <garit> or smart enough to figure out where to press
13:14:23 <garit> so the strongest and smartest kids only will die ^=^
13:14:24 <b_jonas> garit: I can do that with a coke bottle too. If I screw the cap hard enough, then my mother can't open it.
13:14:44 <b_jonas> But doing that could make the bottle less durable, so I try not to.
13:15:59 <b_jonas> (It makes sense for the vitamin bottle, it's not easy to overdose those vitamins, but a kid eating the whole bottle of 100 pills would be a bad idea.)
13:18:08 <b_jonas> Also, note to self, re-ask these questions when ais523 arrives.
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17:11:21 <b_jonas> Hmm, in fact I could use bottles of rinse aid. That's probably easy enough to clean, and they come in small bottles.
17:11:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I wanted to ask you something, but I have to afk now for like three hours, so I can't.
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20:03:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53364&oldid=46742 * Zseri * (-148) improve c code
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20:44:57 <wob_jonas> Ok, so I think the best solution so far for isopropanol is this. Rinse with water then dry an empty bottle of dishwasher rinse aid. Mark it as "FIRE HAZARD POISON" with colored nail polish, as well as put a more detailed (but easier to peel) sticky paper label written with pen, and possibly also a strip of colored PVC insulation tape around the bot
20:45:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: you're still here? good. here's my question
20:45:25 <ais523> not "still", I just rejoined
20:46:13 <ais523> but yes, ask your question
20:46:58 <wob_jonas> I want to take say 0.2 liters of isopropanol to my office for cleaning whiteboards. What is the right container for this? It should be watertight, should clearly not look as something that can be drunk safely, these properties should be durable to mechanical stress and cleaning the exterior with soap water and rubbing with a sponge,
20:47:22 <ais523> I'm not an expert on isopropanol
20:47:22 <wob_jonas> and should also be durable to the isopropanol itself (which is why writing with a sharpie isn't an option).
20:47:31 <ais523> you'd be better off asking someone who knows about it
20:47:56 <wob_jonas> Like a pharmacist? I should probably do that.
20:48:28 <ais523> however, the easier solution might be to buy a dedicated whiteboard cleaner spray; although the ones I'm aware of tend to damage whiteboards in such a way that you can't remove ink from them without the spray, presumably to persuade you to buy more spray
20:49:39 <ais523> why is it so hard to clean your whiteboards, anyway? with a good whiteboard and whiteboard pen, pressure is enough, and in extreme cases water
20:49:41 <wob_jonas> Actually the easier solution would be to buy denatured alcohol, which is much less poisonous, and so can be put to an ordinary coke bottle.
20:49:57 <ais523> I wouldn't recommend cleaning the whiteboard with poison
20:50:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's easy to clean if you clean it immediately, but hard to clean if you leave the marks on for weeks, and in any case, cleaning leaves a lot of residue that becomes ugly after a while.
20:51:09 <wob_jonas> Why is cleaning it with poison a bad idea?
20:51:22 <ais523> because it puts poison on a surface that people might plausibly touch by mistake
20:51:33 <int-e> hah. http://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/3SkullsAprill.jpg
20:51:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: then you have poison in the air
20:52:15 <wob_jonas> Touching is safe. Isopropanol is like bleach, it evaporates quickly and is safe after that. I clean my floor with bleach, and if you open the windows and wait for an hour that's also safe.
20:52:35 <wob_jonas> PH: yes, open the window to let the fumes leave.
20:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> 'poison on surfaces is bad' just sounds like... ais logic
20:52:56 <int-e> http://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/polishing-accessories/polish-inspection-sprays/isopropanol-alcohol-ipa-500ml/prod_818.html <-- serious version
20:52:58 <ais523> I'd say that you would at least need the container to carry the standardised warning symbols for poisonous chemicals
20:53:27 <int-e> (out of stock, but those orange warning labels look serious)
20:53:56 <wob_jonas> PH: In a one little sized bottle. I don't want to take all of it to the office.
20:56:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: the standardized warning symbol is a good idea. that's a red diamond frame with some incomprehensible black drawing inside it.
20:57:17 <ais523> I just feel really uncomfortable discussing this sort of subject at all
21:00:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: should I ask about repainting the wooden window frames with the kind of paint that requires these much more poisonous aromatic solvents first, to make this sound safer in comparison?
21:01:10 <ais523> b_jonas: I happen to know a chemistry teacher, I was asking her for advice on the subject
21:01:26 <ais523> (that's why I went AFK)
21:01:48 <wob_jonas> aren't you a chemistry geek yourself?
21:02:11 <ais523> she says that she hasn't seen anyone try to use isopropanol outside the lab (and wouldn't use it in experiments), but uses acetone plus an air drier for cleaning chemicals off lab equipment, and very occasionally on whiteboards too
21:02:14 <ais523> and it has similar properties
21:02:38 <ais523> she says you mustn't let anyone drink or inhale the isopropanol
21:03:07 <ais523> presumably you have to store it somewhere that only you have access to in order to avoid it being used inappropriately by other people
21:03:15 <ais523> I'm still pretty concerned about the whole subject though
21:06:34 <wob_jonas> mustn't let anyone drink or inhale => yes, it's poisonuos
21:06:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53365&oldid=53361 * Rottytooth * (+586) suggestions about funding
21:07:18 <wob_jonas> isn't acetone worse? I can buy acetone if it works on whiteboards, but I thought it was worse, because it's similarly a fire hazard even in vapor form, it's poisonous to ingest, and solves more things than isopropanol
21:07:21 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol#Toxicology ... I can imagine worse poisons. Also "Rubbing alcohol, hand sanitizer, and disinfecting pads typically contain a 60–70% solution of isopropyl alcohol in water." (dilution affects toxicity but will happen anyway *if* you ingest the stuff.)
21:07:31 <int-e> acetone is what you get if you ingest it
21:08:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: isopropanol metabolises to acetone, so they're similarly poisonous
21:09:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but I thought acetone was a more powerful solvent for household stuff, I could be wrong in that
21:10:21 <ais523> right, the reason she uses acetone is I think precisely because its a powerful solvent, she's trying to clean substantially more dangerous chemicals off glass
21:10:28 <ais523> and most of them disolve in either water or acetone
21:10:31 <wob_jonas> denatured ethanol might be better, because it's less poisonous, but has similar properties as a solvent, as in works for whiteboard cleaning, and is similar fire hazard
21:10:51 <ais523> I've used ethanol to clean permanent marker off glass myself
21:11:13 <ais523> so I guess it's in the category of chemicals I'm not afraid of
21:11:36 <wob_jonas> yes, ethanol works for that, it even lets you clean permanent marker from more rough surfaces by rubbing (it's easier to clean from glass)
21:15:04 <ais523> anyway, I'm really not an expert at this sort of thing; I think I have an A-level in chemistry but didn't score amazingly well at it
21:16:16 <wob_jonas> I'll try to look up where I can get cheap and already denatured hand disinfectants based on alcohol or isopropanol, but so far I've found they're generally sold pretty expensive in most places.
21:16:39 <wob_jonas> Those would work as whiteboard cleaner and similar too.
21:17:08 <wob_jonas> But even then I want to figure out this bottle thing.
21:19:09 <ais523> I think storing it in a locked cabinet where only you have the key, + written warnings, + the standardised warning pictographs
21:20:17 <wob_jonas> a locked cabinet might just about be possible, but a locked cabinet for which only I have the key sounds unrealistic for the office (this isn't at home)
21:20:39 <wob_jonas> written warnings are definitely what I want, but I'm asking how I can make them durable on the bottle
21:21:10 <ais523> hmm, in my office everyone has a cabinet to which only they have the key
21:21:19 <ais523> how could you possibly keep private records and the like without that?
21:21:41 <wob_jonas> In theory I could take in a small metal casette for which only I have the key or something, but that's a bit expensive.
21:22:42 <ais523> also a bottle whose entire purpose is to contain a chemical that cleans ink off surfaces is unlikely to be able to write warnings on
21:22:50 <ais523> as they'd have too much of a chance of being rubbed off by the same chemical
21:23:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, really? Isn't only one person having the key usually impractical? Most keys have copies at different people because anyone might lose keys by accident or pickpocketing or robbing?
21:23:25 <wob_jonas> Even then, most workers at our office don't have separate lockers for which only few people have a key.
21:23:33 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, there are master keys I think
21:23:37 <ais523> but they'd be unlikely to be used
21:23:48 <ais523> I mean, you're the only person who has a key intended for genreal use
21:24:03 <wob_jonas> We have expensive equipment in lockers for which only few people have the key, plus we have the system administrators' room for which I think only the three sysadmins have the key, or perhaps one more person.
21:24:18 <wob_jonas> Also the server room for which similarly only the sysadmins have the kye.
21:24:46 <wob_jonas> I definitely don't have such a lockable closet at work, and most other co-workers don't have one either.
21:25:13 <ais523> I use mine for storing my laptop in sometimes when I go out to eat, that sort of thing
21:25:20 <ais523> (I don't store poisonous chemicals in mine)
21:25:47 <wob_jonas> I have my own desk and unlocked boxes labeled with my names where other people are unlikely to touch my belongings, and there's some personal things like my home keys that I always keep on my person at work.
21:26:44 <ais523> oh, we have something of a theft problem in our department
21:27:17 <wob_jonas> Sure, we have things stolen too, but it's mostly valuable things. My less valuable personal belongings are less likely to be stolen, and even if they are, they're cheap to replace.
21:27:36 <wob_jonas> So I wouldn't leave valuable equipment out in the open.
21:27:39 <ais523> at one point someone set off the fire alarm then started stealing things while people were evacuated, but they got caught fairly quickly because they had to use a swipe card to get through some of the doors
21:28:46 <wob_jonas> That's scary. Is that a crime even if not actually stealing anything, only intending to steal? In any case, it's a pretty bad idea.
21:29:21 <wob_jonas> I don't think anybody does that here. They just walk in open doors when nobody pays attention and remove things acting as if they have authority in case anyone watches.
21:29:23 <ais523> I don't think it's technically illegal? it's a firable offence though
21:30:17 <ais523> interestingly, in the UK I think (not sure, not a lawyer) it's legal to take something you don't own as long as the owner doesn't need it at the time and you give it back undamaged; at least, I know it isn't theft, it might violate some other law though
21:31:11 <wob_jonas> That's definitely not the case here. We've had things disappear, not just used for a bit and returned.
21:31:23 <wob_jonas> Some of it might be accidental loss, but we believe some of it is deliberate theft.
21:31:48 <wob_jonas> I don't want to give any ideas, but the security is really terrible here, so it's easy to steal stuff.
21:32:48 <wob_jonas> Except for the stuff that is stored in the rooms that only few people have keys for and aren't left open. We have a large storage room for valuables like that, plus the server room and sysadmin's room which are even safer.
21:39:57 <wob_jonas> Meanwhile, M:tG is previewing the third un-set.
21:42:59 <wob_jonas> It's a pity they're releasing it just a year after the second Conspiracy set, because some of the conspiracy cards in that feel like un-cards.
21:42:59 <ais523> incidentally, it's added a new card for the "allow people to deduce the game rules purely by reading cards" deck
21:43:02 <ais523> Un sets are good for that
21:43:21 <ais523> e.g. the card that reverses the order of phases lists them all in its reminder text
21:44:23 <wob_jonas> Ah, you mean a deck that lets a future person reconstruct the rules if they don't have access to the comp rules or similar, but only to a deck of cards preserved in a durable photo or something.
21:45:01 <wob_jonas> I thought at first of a deck based on R&D's Secret Lair
21:46:22 <wob_jonas> As for cards for the deck you mean, I've been asking for a Sea's Claim with reminder text.
21:46:40 <wob_jonas> Although I must admit that I like the mountaintop boatmaker.
21:47:00 <ais523> `card-by-name Decimation Clock
21:47:02 <wob_jonas> So maybe a Spreading Seas with reminder text instead.
21:47:08 <ais523> `card_by_name Decimation Clock
21:47:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: card_by_name: not found
21:47:28 <HackEgo> Spreading Seas \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Spreading Seas enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land is an Island. \ ZEN-C
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21:49:35 <ais523> `card-by-name Decimator Web
21:49:36 <HackEgo> Decimator Web \ 4 \ Artifact \ {4}, {T}: Target opponent loses 2 life, gets a poison counter, then puts the top six cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. \ MBS-R
21:49:41 <ais523> there we go, that's the core of the deck
21:50:36 <ais523> and 10 poison, and 20 life
21:51:08 <ais523> `card-by-name lich's mirror
21:51:08 <wob_jonas> yeah, but the 10 poison is easy, it's mentioned in a lot of reminder text, and the 20 life can be guessed from some other cards
21:51:09 <HackEgo> Lich's Mirror \ 5 \ Artifact \ If you would lose the game, instead shuffle your hand, your graveyard, and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20. \ ALA-M
21:51:14 <ais523> then that gives you the 7 cards
21:51:29 <ais523> (once you've established that life totals start at 20 it's clear that it's restarting the game)
21:51:53 <ais523> wow that card has a lot of rulings
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21:59:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: for the 20 starting life, Rebirth might be the best. 7 cards is trickier, Contract from Below (together with Rebirth) or Backup Plan could help, or if you have thousands of cards, you might notice that several refer to drawing seven cards, but none refer to six or more than seven.
21:59:48 <ais523> Enter the Infinite normally draws more than seven :-P
22:00:21 <ais523> maximum hand size is a hard rule to convey; you can use something like Spellbook to imply that there is a maximum, but not what it is
22:01:40 <wob_jonas> And there are some cards like "Once with Feeling" that are specifically confusing if you're reconstructing rules this way.
22:01:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: for establishing that there is a maximum, Day's Undoing might be the best
22:02:09 <wob_jonas> or Glorious End, that's even cleaner
22:02:30 <ais523> `card-by-name glorious end
22:02:31 <HackEgo> Glorious End \ 2R \ Instant \ End the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.) \ At the beginning of your next end step, you lose the game. \ AKH-M
22:02:41 <ais523> yes, that's very clean
22:02:50 <ais523> also explains the cleanup step
22:02:51 <HackEgo> Time Stop \ 4UU \ Instant \ End the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.) \ CHK-R, 10E-R
22:03:08 <wob_jonas> But some rules, like the combat rules, are really hard to explain on cards.
22:03:24 <wob_jonas> And good luck trying to explain banding. There's reminder text for it, but it's never printed, and probably never will be,.
22:03:34 <ais523> `card-by-name benalish hero
22:03:35 <HackEgo> Benalish Hero \ W \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/1 \ Banding (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being blocked by a creature, you divide that creature's combat damage, not its controller, among any of the creatures it's bei
22:03:47 <ais523> haha, it doesn't even fit on one line of IRC
22:04:12 <ais523> (I know how banding works but agree that it's complex; it was less complex back in the damage-on-the-stack days, which oddly postdate banding disappearing)
22:04:20 <wob_jonas> Even without banding, the rules of combat are hard to guess.
22:04:39 <int-e> hmm, Glorious End should also have many rulings
22:04:40 <wob_jonas> But seriously, there are a lot of cards that do something like discard all cards and draw seven cards.
22:04:46 <ais523> `card-by-name master warcraft
22:04:47 <HackEgo> Master Warcraft \ 2(r/w)(r/w) \ Instant \ Cast Master Warcraft only before attackers are declared. \ You choose which creatures attack this turn. \ You choose which creatures block this turn and how those creatures block. \ RAV-R, CMD-R, CMA-R
22:04:49 <wob_jonas> That probably lets you figure out that the starting hand size is around seven.
22:04:57 <int-e> only 5, disappointing.
22:04:57 <ais523> that's the best one I know
22:05:01 <ais523> for explaining combat rules
22:05:20 <wob_jonas> It might not let you figure out that every player draws every turn except for the first player in two-player games (we house-rule that because it's stupid).
22:05:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's an attempt to reduce the first player advantage, it's not enough though
22:05:48 <ais523> first player nearly always has the advantage except in some veryr weird matchups
22:06:03 <ais523> (some control mirrors have a second player advantage, as do most matches involving Manaless Dredge)
22:06:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, that's fine. the bad part is that in multiplayer games, the first player also draws. we believe that's a bad rule and so in our 2 vs 2 multiplayer games, the first player doesn't draw, and the players of a team sit opposite of each other.
22:07:11 <ais523> oh, right, multiplayer
22:07:29 <ais523> M:tG would possibly benefit from Hearthstone's attempt to nullify the first player advantage
22:07:45 <HackEgo> Time Reversal \ 3UU \ Sorcery \ Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. Exile Time Reversal. \ M11-M, M12-M
22:08:00 <ais523> (not only does the first player skip their first draw step, the other player starts with an instant that's effectively "{0}: add {1} to your mana pool")
22:08:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, a free gold for the second player
22:08:18 <wob_jonas> wait, an instant, not a permanent? ok
22:08:21 <ais523> err, sorcery, not instant, but hearthstone doesn't have instants
22:08:29 <wob_jonas> I thought it was a permanent you sacrifice
22:08:40 <ais523> nope, cast from hand and goes to graveyard
22:09:17 <wob_jonas> That might be even better, or worse, depending on the meta.
22:09:59 <ais523> it'd be great in storm (and IIRC works in storm-like combos in Hearthstone)
22:10:20 <int-e> ais523: oh you can use that on any turn you wish?
22:11:06 <ais523> Hearthstone doesn't have an exact equivalent of M:tG storm but it does have things that care about you having played spells already
22:11:08 <ais523> kind-of like Surge, actually
22:11:27 <int-e> wob_jonas: yeah but not restricted to the first turn, which is what I initially thought
22:11:39 <int-e> (and that would be far less useful)
22:12:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: does it have spells that make your opponent discard a card, or spells that let you choose a card from opponent's revealed hand to discard?
22:12:42 <ais523> but those don't violate any of the rules I'm aware of for what hearthstone cards can do and they're fairly obvious effects
22:12:59 <ais523> although the former would probably be random, due to the way that hearthstone's turn timers work
22:15:03 <wob_jonas> random discard exists in M:tG too, but is less convenient
22:15:43 <ais523> `card-by-name hymn to tourach
22:15:44 <HackEgo> Hymn to Tourach \ BB \ Sorcery \ Target player discards two cards at random. \ FE-C, EMA-U, VMA-U, MED-U, V13-M
22:16:07 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's a good one power-wise
22:16:41 <wob_jonas> heck, discard at random is more common than I thought. probably because it's common on red cards, which I notice less.
22:17:06 <ais523> wob_jonas: on red cards it mostly affects the user, though, doesn't it?
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00:58:05 <oerjan> grmbl windows appears to have managed to reboot without my permission.
00:58:22 <ais523> it does that due to mandated updates
00:58:39 <oerjan> i had applied a hack that was supposed to prevent it.
01:05:45 <oerjan> the most annoying thing is that although it tried to restart the browser, it came up with a halfway wrong set of tabs.
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01:09:17 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAA!
01:09:41 <boily> fungot: NOSTRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIL!
01:09:41 <fungot> boily: they say that an opulent throne room is rarely a place to go to my lair to die. ( wump ( 6) " fillet of a sort, yet there was no sword in its eyes.
01:09:57 <boily> HELLØØØØØØØØØØØØØØØRJAN!
01:10:45 <ais523> is fungot playing NetHack again?
01:10:45 <fungot> ais523: polymorph into an unknown being. a towel, it is even more muddled and confused. ( fog, by patrick mcgoohan)
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01:21:49 <boily> fungot: you're already an unknown being. stop polymorphing.
01:21:49 <fungot> boily: rogue, and hung upon the stays to dry. our stout boots, leathern breeks and deerskin shirts, with a +5 shovel. able to shapeshift, his unpopularity may have been introduced by the all-restrainer hupnos. his nature by which he holds, consisting of a sort of a pearly whiteness; but these luxuriances only formed a more horrid contrast with his claws and poison their unwary victims as well as grabbing and crushing the life o
01:21:49 <oerjan> hmph the SO thread i found it now has a comment that the hack no longer works. and hasn't for about a year :P
01:21:49 <oerjan> i guess i've just been diligent with rebooting by hand in time.
01:21:49 <oerjan> except now. i don't remember getting a message that it was _about_ to reboot.
01:21:54 <oerjan> of course i cannot find a new, up to date answer.
01:22:16 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, I set the style to that the other week, and it seems to have stuck.
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01:30:40 <fizzie> "The Norway model" is often in the papers here these days, what with people speculating about post-Brexit scenarios.
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01:42:33 * oerjan sets his activity period to 15:00 - 09:00
01:42:49 <oerjan> that should be reasonable _most_ days.
01:43:21 <oerjan> (yep, it's pretty much the inverse of everyone else)
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02:00:40 <Downgoat> for the code-golf site. I was wondering if anyone here has any ideas on who should be allowed to edit posts
02:00:46 <Downgoat> Stack Exchange allows pretty much everyone
02:01:04 <ais523> Downgoat: one big idea I had/rediscovered since our last conversation
02:01:21 <ais523> is to have, instead of two layers (challenge/answer), three layers (challenge/answer/note)
02:01:29 <ais523> anyone can submit a note on anyone else's answer (or their own)
02:01:39 <ais523> containing explanations, questions, further commentary, etc.
02:01:53 <ais523> I'm thinking that an answer would just be the code of an answer, and the explanation would be a note
02:02:00 <ais523> that way you can have competing explanations for the same answer
02:02:26 <ais523> if you do that there wouldn't be much need to be able to edit other peoples' posts; on PPCG editing someone else's post to golf it is discouraged, and editing in an explanation wouldn't be needed as you could just add your own
02:02:31 <Downgoat> So kinda like reddit where you can respond to a post's 'answer' with another 'post'
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02:07:24 <ais523> I think it's beneficial for anyone to be able to edit challenges, at least before they go live
02:07:43 <ais523> (I'm thinking we sandbox challenges "in-place" but without the ability to answer, then vote them open when we think they're ready)
02:10:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Resplicate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53366 * Ais523 * (+24) an all-lowercase redirect will allow any capitalisation of the word to be found in search, and this is a hard word to capitalise correctly
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02:46:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53367&oldid=53264 * Ais523 * (+25) +[[Category:Queue-based]]
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03:37:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Avuxo * New user account
03:39:13 <Downgoat> ais523: yeah, there is a special button to submit to a 'review' mode rather than a publish so you can get feedback
03:40:06 <ais523> perhaps that could be automatic for all problems? I proposed that on PPCG and it was rejected because of the way that the new questions list sorted, but that wouldn't be a problem if we could define our own sort orders
03:41:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53368&oldid=53360 * Avuxo * (+285) /* Introductions */
03:41:40 <ais523> oh, this reminds me: another useful feature would be a) hiding answers to a question by default (with an option to permanently unhide them) so that people can work on a problem unspoilt, b) allowing identical or similar answers by different people but merging identical anwers and hiding worse answers by default unless they were voted signfiicantly different
03:41:56 <ais523> this would give us most of the advantages of anagolf in addition to most of the advantages of PPCG
03:42:18 <ais523> the FGITW problem on PPCG is nasty, having it so that if ten people independently come up with the same answer they all get credit seems better
03:42:46 <ais523> (this might lead to people cheating using a second account / logging out / whatever, but as long as there's no real reward the incentive for cheating should be low and it should also be fairly easy to detect)
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04:50:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53369&oldid=53235 * Ais523 * (+17) I forgot to add A Pear Tree
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05:38:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tfbninja * New user account
05:49:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53370&oldid=53368 * Tfbninja * (+306) /* Introductions */
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05:56:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aceto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53371&oldid=52015 * Tfbninja * (-2) /* Grammar */
05:56:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aceto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53372&oldid=53371 * Tfbninja * (+19) /* Examples */
05:58:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aceto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53373&oldid=53372 * Tfbninja * (+11) /* Examples */
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07:37:15 <sleffy> shachaf, I got Philip Wadler to sign my laptop
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07:38:32 <sleffy> ah, I seem to have skipped the pleasantries. My apologies.
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08:50:43 <HackEgo> ysaclist 68: boily shachaf
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09:33:00 <\oren\> hmm. I can infer it. 25 people have highscores >1000. global achievment stats say that's 4.7% of players
09:33:32 <\oren\> 25 / 4.7 * 100 = 532 people own this game, and I'mranked number 111
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09:38:58 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/stats/498470/leaderboards/1394823/?sr=106
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12:52:17 <b_jonas> Oh. Apparently http://www.bardsworth.com/ has announced a few months ago that the comic is abandonned. Pity.
12:54:14 <b_jonas> I think this is the first time I've seen a webcomic where the author honestly announced that he's abandonning the comic forever. "We the robots" just said it's on an indefinite hiatus.
12:54:56 <b_jonas> Most of the comics that are stuck in an incomplete state don't have any kind of announcement, they just de facto don't update.
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16:18:04 <ais523> hmm, the recent Firefox upgrade is a really big one; they should have bumped the major version number for it but they ended up devaluing their version number ages ago
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16:18:46 <ais523> that said, it's broken a lot of extensions; NoScript say that they haven't quite got ready in time for the release and are hoping to have a working extension soon
16:18:52 <ais523> so atm I'm browsing with JavaScript turned off entirely
16:19:21 <ais523> most things still work, the things that don't are mostly sending content to websites (as opposed to reading them)
16:20:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aceto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53374&oldid=53373 * Tfbninja * (+42) /* Examples */
16:20:44 <Roger9> I'm somewhat more lenient on scripts running, but I do have an addon that detects and disables trackers.
16:28:59 <ais523> most scripts actively make the sites they're on worse
16:29:25 <ais523> normally I whitelist exceptions, but there aren't any fine-grained extensions that work yet so I had to go for the simple, overparanoid option
16:29:28 <ais523> it's an interesting experience
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16:37:44 <int-e> ais523: Do you know about Wang tilings? I wonder how big the smallest set is for which tilability of the plane is unknown.
16:40:39 <ais523> int-e: vaguely, I can't remember the details
16:40:52 <ais523> are those just a mathematical formalization of jigsaw puzzles?
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16:43:05 <int-e> ais523: With fixed orientation of pieces, yes.
16:44:27 <int-e> But I'll take it as a no. (basically, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_tile isn't as informative as I'd like, though perhaps I could find the answer by following some of the references.)
16:45:25 <ais523> so Wang tilings are obviously TC as you can implement But Is It Art? with them
16:45:42 <ais523> (that's a weird language to go via for TCness proofs…)
16:46:34 <b_jonas> ais523: which recent firefox update? ah yes, the one that broke all extensions.
16:47:17 <b_jonas> is that even recent? I think it's been out months ago.
16:47:45 <ais523> it got pushed to Ubuntu yesterday
16:48:11 <b_jonas> ais523: what? isn't that backwards? I thought you can implement wang tiles using But Is It Art, because wang tiles are on a square grid, one tile for each square, with just the borders different,
16:48:26 <b_jonas> whereas But Is It Art tiles can be of any contiguous shape
16:48:30 <ais523> b_jonas: you can do it either way
16:48:49 <ais523> to compile BIIA? into Wang Tiles, you create a unique border code for each internal square connection in the BIIA? program
16:48:51 <b_jonas> oh, you use multiple wang tiles to emulate a ButArt tiles?
16:48:59 <ais523> while using a single continuous border code for the outside of the BIIA? tiles
16:49:30 <ais523> anyway, this comes down to "what's the shortest program for which we're not sure whether or not it halts?"
16:49:38 <ais523> if PPCG doesn't have a question for that already, it ought to
16:50:00 <b_jonas> Ok, but this is still a bit backwards, because I thought we knew that wang tiles are TC because the TAOCP claims that or something very close, and we prove that But Art is turing complete using that.
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16:51:16 <ais523> I can't find it but it's a hard thing to search for
16:51:33 <ais523> b_jonas: infinite BIIA (and infinite Wang tiles, for that matter) can simulate arbitrary cellular automato
16:51:34 <b_jonas> hmm... let me look it up. I think it might not have been called Wang tiles
16:52:48 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, infinite 1d CA or something like that would be the reasonable proof, but I've read TAOCP first three volumes Hungarian translation (based on old editions) early when I was young so it sort of skewed my knowledge, many things it stated I still consider more basic than really more basic things
16:53:32 <b_jonas> ais523: oh come on, it *is* called Wang. just look up Wang in the index of TAOCP vol 1.
16:53:47 <b_jonas> let me see what exactly it claims about it
16:56:09 <b_jonas> although it is in a starred section
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16:58:45 <b_jonas> hmm, I think you might be right, this doesn't claim anywhere that this is turing-complete
17:14:51 <int-e> ais523: well, it's easy to find the answer for Turing Machines because of the busy beaver function.
17:15:47 <int-e> cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busy_beaver#Exact_values_and_lower_bounds
17:17:56 <b_jonas> .oO(I think ais knows that)
17:18:20 <b_jonas> int-e: it's not necessarily *easier* to find the answer, it's just more researched already
17:18:49 <int-e> b_jonas: the answer *was* about the state of the art
17:19:22 <int-e> b_jonas: I was using "finding" in the sense of locating the information.
17:22:10 <ais523> int-e: I assume that if the value of the busy beaver function is not listed as an exact number, it means that there's at least one program of that size for which we don't know whether it halts?
17:22:25 <ais523> (I can conceiveably imagine that there's a program for which we do know that it halts, but don't know how long it takes)
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17:25:37 <int-e> https://www.f6s.com/sergiodemianlerner <-- meh, an unpublished proof?!
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17:32:37 <int-e> ais523: http://www.logique.jussieu.fr/~michel/ha.html says that "The study of Turing machines with 5 states and 2 symbols is still going on." and I have no reason to believe that it was resolved in the meantime.
17:41:05 <quintopia> what's lambdabot's callsign again?
17:41:47 <ais523> hmm, fungot isn't here
17:41:54 <ais523> it's @ anyway, I think
17:41:58 <ais523> although it responds to ? sometimes too
17:42:01 <ais523> and has a special case for >
17:42:17 <quintopia> @tell boily I probably can't 22, but I may be able to 26
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17:43:24 <b_jonas> whta's the question mark thing?
17:43:41 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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18:04:48 <b_jonas> so apparently M:tG Unstable is going to have some sort of combo creatures made from two cards, with some cards dedicated as front halves and some dedicated as back halves.
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18:05:59 <b_jonas> maybe it just has place splicing of two arbitrary creatures.
18:07:52 <b_jonas> hmm, and I think the back halves will work as standalone creatures too.
18:09:21 <b_jonas> I wonder how this will work
18:10:12 <b_jonas> wait, the back halves have supertype Host?
18:10:37 <b_jonas> is that what MaRo meant by a mythic vanilla creature, because the supertype doesn't count?
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18:29:59 <b_jonas> And apparently the front half has a trigger condition and the back half an action, and together they form a triggered ability.
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19:38:45 <int-e> . o O ( "pure speculation" would be a fine name for a Haskell fintech company :P )
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23:23:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you'll have to update your M:tG variant rules about card names for the Unstable augment mechanic.
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23:24:48 <quintopia> has anyone ever written a boolfuck program that computes the factorial of arbitrarily large numbers ?
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00:57:18 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Virgin_Lake&diff=810659041&oldid=810658953
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01:16:44 <Roger9> Ello, hppavilion[1] (if you don't mind me pinging you right now. I mean, this is only once, but I do know of people that are, somewhat justifiably, annoyed by me doing that kind of thing).
01:19:38 <Roger9> I'm still experimenting (well, thought experimenting, anyway) with the idea of using the 'lem/cc' primitive to define functions when there aren't any specialized functions.
01:19:51 <Roger9> s/functions/syntactical forms for function definitions
01:20:21 <Roger9> As in, "function (...) {...}" would be invalid, but you'd be able to use "lem/cc" to recreate the effects of a function.
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01:50:37 <Roger9> 'Ello, doesthiswork. Doesyourinternetwork? Itlookslikeyourepingingout.
01:51:51 <doesthiswork> my girlfriend wants her video to load faster so I'm turning off my connection except when I need to load a page so that she knows that it's not my fault
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02:53:43 <quintopia> regardless of whether you are connected
02:54:55 <quintopia> maybe its your fault because you didnt buy good enough i ternet service or chose to live in a broadband desert
02:55:22 <quintopia> but its definitely not /her/ fault regardless
03:08:59 <doesthiswork> And also staring at a loading screen for an hour has a way of fraying the nerves
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11:05:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pairs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53375 * Avuxo * (+1231) Created page with "'''Pairs''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Avuxo]] based on creating binary numbers using characters. To create a 1 use two of the same character in a..."
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11:10:03 <b_jonas> Oh I see! It's a stupid joke
11:10:26 <b_jonas> I was wondering why they updated the article https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/unstable-mechanics-2017-11-13 in place (and announced that they would do that in advance) rather than make a second article.
11:10:45 <b_jonas> It's because they *augmented* the article with more text, they same way you augment the host creature. Duh.
11:11:08 <b_jonas> This is groanworthy the same way as a pun is.
11:14:31 <shachaf> That doesn't seem right...
11:15:08 <b_jonas> yeah, that doesn't work. that's the stupid hello world script I created
11:15:15 <HackEgo> hello hello hello, what's all this then?
11:15:21 <HackEgo> `hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2 letter later to s/d,/d/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline.
11:15:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
11:17:19 <shachaf> What's with this US tax proposal, anyway?
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11:34:57 <lambdabot> shachaf said 1d 2h 44m 9s ago: ysaclist 68
11:34:57 <lambdabot> quintopia said 17h 52m 40s ago: I probably can't 22, but I may be able to 26
11:35:11 <boily> shachaf: helloochaf. yay!
11:35:34 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA. 26 sounds good.
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11:53:11 <int-e> shachaf: maybe it's smart and the singularity is just around the corner... no need to waste money on grad students
11:55:21 <int-e> But I think it's just a cynical move, and quite probably stupid (US is becoming increasingly unattractive for aspiring academics.)
11:59:58 <shachaf> int-e: Is that the change most visible from across the ocean?
12:07:22 <b_jonas> "US is becoming increasingly unattractive for aspiring academics." => very true. and reputedly it's mostly students from asia who get the bad end of that.
12:07:43 <b_jonas> if only the situation was not so messed up in Europe, I'd be happy with that, because we'd get all the students here.
12:08:38 <b_jonas> But for now, America, Europe, and Israel are all messed up, so people can't go anywhere reasonable to do graduate education and science work and conferences.
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12:09:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: so your answer is, yes, but across the other ocean mostly
12:09:26 <int-e> shachaf: I don't know. I've learned about the change from https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/opinion/house-tax-bill-graduate-students.html (via a blog)
12:15:03 <int-e> shachaf: outside of my bubble it seems people focus on estate tax and corporate tax, which I guess are the two items with the biggest financial impact.
12:16:33 <shachaf> I don't really understand the widespread opposition to the estate tax.
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12:17:02 <shachaf> If there is such an opposition, which maybe there isn't.
12:20:15 <int-e> I understand Trump's opposition to the estate tax... and other rich people... so the leadership of the Republican party...
12:26:30 <shachaf> While you're at it maybe you can explain the Republican party's position on healthcare to me?
12:26:58 <int-e> rich people pay for their own healthcare anyway?
12:27:19 <int-e> (so no need to contribute money to public health care)
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16:45:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53376&oldid=53332 * Avuxo * (+12) /* P */
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19:56:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53377&oldid=53365 * JayCampbell * (+136) Donation
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20:12:55 <int-e> $5 a month here, $5 a month there... it can add to a serious amount quickly.
20:14:45 <shachaf> fizzie: You should turn esolangs.org into an organization that's permitted to use Google Cloud.
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21:13:26 <fizzie> shachaf: It would need "a potential economic benefit", so presumably the non-profit models I was actually looking at wouldn't qualify.
21:14:06 <shachaf> Or just make it a for-profit.
21:18:05 <fizzie> I don't think that's in the spirit of the thing.
21:19:38 <shachaf> A for-profit owned by a non-profit.
21:20:11 <fizzie> I guess. They're a slightly bigger operation, though.
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21:33:36 <wob_jonas> Isn't there some theorem about this, for how you can always decompose a bounded profit corporation to a non-negative profit and a non-positive profit one?
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21:45:24 <izabera> magic the gathering is turing complete?
21:45:34 <ais523> yes, or, well, it depends on your exact definitions
21:45:56 <ais523> the construction on http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow unfortunately doesn't quite work because I misunderstood the rules for trigger timing
21:45:59 <izabera> http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/index.html
21:46:05 <ais523> hopefully it's fixable though
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21:52:17 <shachaf> You need to solve the halting problem to decide whether a game is a draw.
21:54:27 <ais523> shachaf: I'm not sure that /specifically/ has been proven, Alex Churchill's constructions IIRC require player decisions sometimes, and my construction doesn't quite work
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21:55:52 <shachaf> I though there was a way to do computation without player decisions.
21:57:09 <ais523> there probably is, but my proof of it has a mistake in
21:57:16 <ais523> so we need a new proof
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22:32:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SomethingFwaful * New user account
22:35:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53378&oldid=53370 * SomethingFwaful * (+335)
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23:34:32 <wob_jonas> And yes, the suggestion that the mythic rare vanilla creature is a Host is tempting, but I think ultimately it's false because the Hosts all have a triggered ability.
23:35:09 <wob_jonas> I wonder if it's something with non-integers in it
23:35:46 <wob_jonas> Or something with Phyrexian mana, which we know returns in unstable on at least one card (but then un-sets are like Time Spiral, they will have mechanics returning for just one card)
23:36:40 <wob_jonas> Like a phyrexian version of Reaper King
23:36:57 <wob_jonas> but that would be too abusable. you'd cast it for 10 life in your first turn.
23:38:37 <wob_jonas> I hope it's not just a vanilla back side of a flip card, like Markov's Servant
23:39:28 <wob_jonas> It can't just be an 1.5/0.5 artifact creature for {0.5} or something, because that wouldn't be mythic.
23:39:50 <wob_jonas> Maybe it's just a 100/100 creature for {21} or something
23:40:38 <wob_jonas> Or a contraption creature with no crank ability?
23:47:01 <wob_jonas> OH! They printed the "last strike" ability in unstable!
23:48:19 <wob_jonas> And a red direct damage spell with trample. Brilliant. It doesn't work per rules of course, but still, brilliant.
23:50:17 <wob_jonas> Selfie Preservation is also a nice idea
23:50:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FISHQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53379&oldid=53364 * Zseri * (-117) some improvements
23:50:52 <wob_jonas> Reminds me to First Come, First Served sort of
23:53:30 <wob_jonas> Oh! And Labro-Bot *is* an artifact. I was wondering about that.
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01:01:37 <ais523> my plans on what the ideal codegolf site could look like: https://pastebin.com/raw/G5rhFrhw
01:04:21 <ais523> (I also posted these over at PPCG)
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01:12:46 <zzo38> OK I am reading it
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01:19:59 <zzo38> I doubt any kind of "perfect" kind of code-golf could really be made up, although some of the ideas listed in here are good ideas.
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01:23:39 <ais523> zzo38: right, I doubt this is actually perfect
01:23:48 <ais523> it's just my attempt to increase the density of good ideas as much as possible
01:27:27 <zzo38> Being able to attach commends is good, including other marks such as "cheat"; the submitter can do but someone else might also add it with a comment if whoever originally wrote it failed to do so. Anarchy Golf has only the submitter adds (cheat) and stuff like that
01:31:49 <zzo38> I might have want to do it more like Unusenet perhaps; you may suggest further kind of control messages and/or MIME headers to support any new feature which may be needed, which I can add into the document.
01:37:55 <zzo38> (Actually, I think they should make a lot of web forums to support Unusenet, so you can use them with NNTP and set up echo servers and so on.)
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02:18:41 <shachaf> ais523: Voting on things based on the current score doesn't seem very stable.
02:19:14 <shachaf> Maybe it would be better if everyone specified what they think is the right score, and then a score was computed from all of those values?
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02:19:44 <zzo38> shachaf: I thought of that too, but how would you compute it from those values?
02:19:58 <zzo38> (I started writing a message about that, but then I couldn't think of how, so I didn't.)
02:20:16 <shachaf> I started thinking about that, but then I couldn't think of how, so I wrote a message.
02:20:26 <shachaf> But I didn't think very hard.
02:20:30 <ais523> shachaf: right, it isn't perfect, but I assume that it'll stabilise around the correct score
02:20:37 <ais523> later voters have more influence than early voters
02:20:46 <ais523> but that's kind-of what you want as later voters tend to be more informed
02:22:14 <shachaf> Maybe earlier voters should be rewarded for voting the way later voters do.
02:30:27 <ais523> Slashdot ended up needing a system for that in order to cut down on trolls trying to manipulate votes
02:30:32 <ais523> I doubt a codegolf site does, though
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02:44:25 <doesthiswork> because you're increasing the strength of the elements that contribute to the final result early
02:44:57 <shachaf> doesthiswork: It also sounds like any market, doesn't it?
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02:49:27 <doesthiswork> yes, but I hadn't made the connection between hebb's rule and markets before
02:49:54 <oerjan> after looking up what hebbian means, i conclude that you should use a neural network to compute the score hth
02:50:07 <shachaf> oerjan: do you mean an artificial neural network tdnh
02:50:39 <shachaf> what a scam it is that some truncated linear maps are called "neural"
02:50:48 <oerjan> should have used "amortized" there.
02:51:52 <doesthiswork> I had a lot more confidence in them once I found out that they were just made out of linear maps.
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02:53:43 <doesthiswork> although they are almost entirely unlike neurons
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04:31:43 <zzo38> Now I wrote this (but I don't know what it would be called): http://sprunge.us/eXUI
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04:46:01 <zzo38> Did you read this?
04:46:32 <shachaf> Yes, but I didn't think about it.
05:03:34 <doesthiswork> my shoulders just broke out in a rash after I squeezed all my girlfriend's decorative gourds.
05:04:23 <oerjan> . o O ( if that's what you call it )
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06:50:09 <doesthiswork> it turns out that I got a rash because I'm probably mildly allergic to quinoa
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08:11:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TedDidNothingWrong * New user account
08:12:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53380&oldid=53378 * TedDidNothingWrong * (+202)
08:19:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck²]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53381 * TedDidNothingWrong * (+1307) Created page with "Brainfuck<sup>2</sup> is an esoteric programming language, a derivative of [[Brainfuck]] except this time actually funny. Every term in the language is a name of another brain..."
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20:37:23 <Vorpal> So the rpi running znc died. Both the external SSD and the sdcard in it died the same day
20:42:31 <Vorpal> everything ok with you?
20:42:40 <Vorpal> no SSDs died on you recently?
20:46:47 <shachaf> But my liver might be dying
20:47:03 <shachaf> But it might not, so I'll be optimistic
20:47:46 <Vorpal> shachaf: lets hope not. Also I feel silly for complaining about an RPi now compared to that
20:49:43 <shachaf> That was probably an exaggeration
20:50:10 <shachaf> I'm at an autoimmune liver disease conference today full of talks about things that might or might apply to me
20:55:46 <Vorpal> shachaf: I see, you work in some sort of medical profession?
20:57:45 <shachaf> No, it's a conference for nonprofessionals
20:58:17 <Vorpal> I'm somewhat confused, but okay
20:59:16 <shachaf> The audience is patients and caregivers
21:05:44 <Vorpal> shachaf: and which category are you in?
21:06:59 <shachaf> But I'm getting some MRIs and things and we'll see
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22:33:00 * Roger9 creates a new local variable named 'constant'
22:33:15 <Roger9> Then you will be overshadowed!
22:35:28 <constant> for some reason HackEgo doesn't seem very honest
22:35:28 <constant> for some reason HackEgo doesn't seem very honest
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23:12:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53382&oldid=51486 * BradensEsolangs * (+133) /* Burn */ new section
23:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53383&oldid=53382 * Ais523 * (+283) /* Burn */ r to BradensEsolang
23:17:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of a revision on page [[Main Page]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
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00:26:50 <\oren\> YES I reached the top 50 my rank is 43 on teh leaderboards
00:28:00 <zzo38> Top fifty of what?
00:28:26 <Roger9> "Top fifty people with the worst places on the leaderboard!"
00:29:43 <zzo38> On what leaderboard?
00:36:52 <Roger9> In other words, "Top fifty people with the worst places on this very leaderboard!"
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00:38:51 <zzo38> Is this IRC a leaderboard?
00:44:40 <Roger9> Yes, and every time you chat you climb down it.
00:45:49 <zzo38> O, OK, I thought this IRC is not a leaderboard.
00:46:01 <zzo38> But, then I suppose that mean I am wrong
00:57:48 <oerjan> ais523: i recall trying to reverse engineer Burn once based on the idea that the colors represent types of fuel and the numbers where they are in the process of burning. does that ring any bell?
00:59:43 <oerjan> it seemed to me that the 00's in the program were just right for separating "gates" of fire, so they would represent absense of fuel.
01:00:44 <oerjan> um gates is the wrong word
01:03:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53384 * Zzo38 * (+1882) I don't know what it is called. If you know, you can make the suggestion or to fix it by yourself, please. Once it is have the name, to put in main namespace please.
01:04:22 <zzo38> Will you please to read it? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Untitled_1
01:09:04 <lambdabot> ENVA 190050Z 14004KT CAVOK M05/M06 Q1001 RMK WIND 670FT VRB03KT
01:17:53 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/stats/498470/leaderboards/1394823/?steamid=76561198326671674
01:23:02 <lambdabot> EGLL 190050Z AUTO 29005KT 9999 BKN043 04/04 Q1021 NOSIG
01:23:09 <fizzie> At least the rain has stopped.
01:24:12 <fizzie> I can see clearly now, the rain is gone.
01:29:43 <fizzie> The other day we were at a light thing at a park hereabouts and it was a little foggy, it looked very nice.
01:29:46 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/beamrules.jpg
01:32:38 <oerjan> that looks like a light thing indeed
01:34:11 <fizzie> They had a lot of different light things, https://zem.fi/tmp/gates.jpg and those spheres that are made of little mirrors and so on.
01:35:10 <fizzie> My wife says she doesn't understand why nobody in Finland does this sort of places, it's not like they're short on trees and darkness (the two main ingredients) there.
01:36:23 <fizzie> Here there's at least four different ones going on this winter that I've seen ads for.
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02:05:02 <ais523> oerjan: I'm fairly confident a 00 couldn't change
02:05:32 <ais523> I think values only changed based on adjacent values, though? it was something like a cellular automaton, not sure exactly
02:11:21 <oerjan> ais523: a 00 not changing fits my idea
02:11:38 <oerjan> i also assumed it was a CA
02:12:05 <oerjan> with changes being "fire spreading" or things continuing to burn
02:12:31 <oerjan> might look at it again some time.
02:13:08 <ais523> I also might be very wrong about this, but IIRC the colors were symmetrical, and didn't interact with each other in most cases but did in some special cases
02:13:14 <ais523> I'm not very confident on that though
02:13:27 <oerjan> i also assumed colors were symmetrical
02:14:51 <oerjan> and also that they only interacted in special cases. 2s and 3s are rare, so that might be where they interact.
02:15:20 <oerjan> (in the example program)
02:15:59 <oerjan> so 00s would be "empty cells", "1"s would be "fire of that color can burn through here"
02:16:52 <oerjan> because the 1s look like a kind of network
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05:47:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53385&oldid=53384 * Zzo38 * (+1342)
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05:52:13 <zzo38> This program language I made up is I think it can also make a Minsky machine.
06:01:22 <zzo38> Do you know how to make a better ModanShogi program than the example given, in order to make it to be the actually valid shogi game?
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11:43:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Minibug * New user account
11:43:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53386&oldid=53380 * Minibug * (+66)
11:44:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RENE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53387&oldid=40752 * Minibug * (+524)
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15:34:00 <wob_jonas> I think I may have accidentally ruined my good keyboard
15:34:08 <wob_jonas> because some of its keys don't work since I spilled some tea into it
15:34:17 <wob_jonas> I tried to clean it out, but it still doesn't work
15:34:29 <wob_jonas> will still give it a day or two of drying, just in case it magically fixes itself,
15:34:51 <wob_jonas> And it's such a great keyboard, and wasn't even cheap.
15:35:46 <int-e> tea sounds a bit boring though
15:36:11 <int-e> I've had great success at destroying keyboards with Coca Cola :P
15:36:12 <wob_jonas> It's just colored water kind of tea.
15:36:17 <wob_jonas> There wasn't even lemon juice in it
15:36:36 <wob_jonas> it's not even sticky from sugar like coca-cola
15:37:00 <int-e> (with sugar... which means that it gets sticky when it dries... as you just wrote)
15:39:56 <int-e> I think it really only happend two times, and the last time was 10 years ago... but these events are quite memorable.
15:48:24 <wob_jonas> I have a warranty on my camera that would cover suddenly getting ruined by tea spills, but not one on the keyboard.
15:48:39 <wob_jonas> But then the keyboard was cheaper than the camera
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16:03:38 <Roger9> <lambdabot> You don't have any massages
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16:17:04 <wob_jonas> fungot, how many keyboards have you destroyed with soft drink spills?
16:17:04 <fungot> wob_jonas: they say that the manner of that. whilst speaking he produced a dangerous looking clasp knife, quite in keeping with his watery eyes, of australia, having lived a wild moment, did it?
16:17:31 <fungot> Roger9: never burn a tree whose hungry mouth is prest against the panes, and breast of a staff may recharge if you catch a floating eye: floating eyes, so perfectly constructed that no one knows everything about everything in his back up to greet it, and it is said to it.
16:17:40 <int-e> I've never trusted those watery eyes
16:18:01 <Roger9> is fungot obsessed with eyes?
16:18:01 <fungot> Roger9: gems are too precious to be turned into a flange that rested against the windowpanes. ( the fellowship of the events was to return from work hachi would be easy to control. many are the devil's work.
16:18:16 <Roger9> No, maybe fungot's obsessed with window panes.
16:18:16 <fungot> Roger9: if you attack it.
16:18:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:18:50 <Roger9> I wanna see what the youtube style does.
16:18:56 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:19:00 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
16:19:10 <fizzie> It doesn't do much; the training set was very small.
16:19:21 <fizzie> fungot: Was 9/11 an inside job?
16:19:21 <fungot> fizzie: that's talent! go for it..maybe hip hop/ metallica/ whoever the hell it then was masturbating f prick
16:19:36 <Roger9> fungot: What are you commenting on?
16:19:36 <fungot> Roger9: just because some1 makes a comment box!
16:19:48 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
16:19:57 <fizzie> fungot's always writing in boxes.
16:19:58 <fungot> fizzie: chapter 1.iii. in/ time :) my visit, had ascended this mountain; and indeed very few :)/ vermilion spots occur within no great length :)/ nose, causing vertical furrows, that is/ picking out :) individuals with such parts slightly less developed, with/ edges blackened and partly withered.
16:20:21 <fizzie> There's a slight bug with this particular style, that makes the = /, of = :).
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16:21:08 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
16:21:19 <Roger9> fungot: Ooh, IRC logs.
16:21:19 <fungot> Roger9: it is pointless to say ' jinx!' afterwards, wins.
16:21:28 <fizzie> That's pretty much the default style.
16:21:39 <fizzie> Roger9: However, the win was pointless.
16:21:44 <int-e> Roger9: you didn't include the space
16:22:07 <fizzie> To be fair, the space is a bug in the Befunge code.
16:22:20 <int-e> pointless details matter
16:23:06 <fizzie> The token sequence generated was very likely [opening single quote], ["jinx!"]. [closing single quote].
16:23:40 <int-e> too many ' layers of abstraction'
16:27:02 <fizzie> int-e: I wanted it to be able to ensure paired delimiters are appropriately closed.
16:27:40 <fizzie> (By omitting non-matching closing delimiters, and emitting a suitable sequence at the end if there are leftover open ones.
16:28:04 <zzo38> Do you like MZM? http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/MZM
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19:39:52 <zzo38> Do you have any example ZX Spectrum screen files? I found a FTP but I cannot login
19:43:00 <zzo38> Actually, simply changing the URL from FTP to HTTP allowed it to work.
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20:34:30 <lambdabot> *** "motley" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:34:30 <lambdabot> adj 1: consisting of a haphazard assortment of different kinds;
20:34:30 <lambdabot> "an arrangement of assorted spring flowers"; "assorted
20:34:30 <lambdabot> sizes"; "miscellaneous accessories"; "a mixed program of
20:45:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53388&oldid=53385 * Zzo38 * (+73) Computation class
20:46:46 <Roger9> Why does HexChat think my web browser is Pluma?
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23:00:52 <Roger9> A subset of lambda calculus in which parentheses are disallowed wouldn't be able to express every function that LC itself could, right?
23:01:06 <Roger9> I don't know why I'm asking, to be honest.
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23:03:16 <ais523> Roger9: we experimented with that a while back
23:03:22 <ais523> even allowing a few combinators it's hard to make it work
23:03:47 <ais523> although, if you're allowing arbitrary (unparenthesized) lambdas, it's a bit of a different problem
23:04:13 <shachaf> https://www.westpoint.edu/eecs/SiteAssets/SitePages/Faculty%20Publication%20Documents/Okasaki/jfp03flat.pdf
23:04:19 <ais523> hmm, come to think of it, isn't that equivalent to beta-reduced form?
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00:10:32 <HackEgo> Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
00:10:40 <HackEgo> Mothology is the study of moths, myths and mirths.
00:16:11 <shachaf> Is that pronounced with a non-rhotic accent?
00:19:06 <shachaf> `slwd mothology//s.myths.&, mouths,.
00:19:09 <HackEgo> mothology//Mothology is the study of moths, myths, mouths, and mirths.
00:31:14 <Roger9> Well, a concept I had in mind was a lambda calculus based language in which there is both an "application" operator (e.g. f:x) and a "reverse application" operator (e.g. x;f), which would both be left-associative.
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00:33:29 <lambdabot> sin (cos (sin x)) / cos (cos (sin x))
00:34:59 <LKoen> does haskell now trig identities?
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01:59:39 <oerjan> `ello wasntheresomething
01:59:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ello: not found
01:59:45 <oerjan> ^ello wasntheresomething
02:00:21 <HackEgo> bin/dontaskdonttelllist \ bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist \ bin/hello \ bin/hello-world-in-any-language \ bin/tell \ bin/wellcome
02:01:01 <doesthiswork> I was reading an operating systems text book today and it was talking a lot about resource allocation. But instead of a proper capitalistic system they were suggesting a command economy
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05:10:35 <function> Downgoat: welcome to #esoteric where we have highly productive conversations
05:11:21 <function> love them. null is favorite value
05:11:55 <moonythedwarf> brb inserting null pointer bugs into freebsd kernel
05:15:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53389&oldid=53386 * Null * (+130)
05:28:10 <zzo38> I wrote a program to read ZX Spectrum pictures and the files titled "UNICORN" in http://zxart.ee/eng/graphics/database/pictureType:timexhr/ seem to have an incorrect mode byte, although the other files listed there work. All of the standard 6912 files also work, and so do the Timex 8x1 files.
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06:39:17 <function> I'm just going to leave this here https://asciinema.org/a/NBmDJXz65O7ljweD1jK0haUD4
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07:31:10 <\oren\> WOOHOO I made it into the top 25!
07:32:37 <zzo38> Twenty-fifth place isn't winning.
07:33:23 <zzo38> (But it is still a better achievement than last place, unless, it is the last place.)
08:04:25 <LKoen> if you end up 25th out of 25 at the World Something Championship, you can write "ranked 25th at the World Something Championship" on your resumé
08:04:40 <LKoen> and it's still an achievement (at least you showed up to the championship)
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10:08:40 <myname> i should make championships myself
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11:27:18 <FireFly> Does it count if it was the world championships of a friend's pong game written in java?
11:31:36 <shachaf> do you jam this generals jam
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12:11:54 <b_jonas> LKoen: also some championships aren't open, they have qualifiers, so getting past the qualifiers is still an achievement.
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13:58:42 <b_jonas> I realized that M:tG is like twice as old now as it was when I first met it, and they're making new cards in an increasingly faster rate. This must be why I can't follow all the cards they're making and why it seems like the game has changed a lot.
14:04:22 <garit> I didnt even try to play it because i realised that im too lazy to code the effect of each card in a simulator. (and i dont play games that i cant somehow simulate)
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16:52:46 <zzo38> I also can't follow all of the cards they are making but I do always follow changes to the Comprehensive Rules.
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18:57:28 <zseri> I implemented a brainfuck interpreter in XTW, which should proof it's turing complete. https://github.com/zserik/zxtw/blob/master/examples/bf.xtw
19:00:03 <zseri> but it's not perfect, because it uses mapping functions to convert between 'single character' I/O-strings and internal integers
19:01:26 <ais523> zseri: what happens if you /do/ start a line with a colon in TEWNLSWAC
19:06:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Zzo38/Untitled 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53390 * Ais523 * (+313) name
19:06:50 <quintopia> i would have to imagine it would be a syntax error
19:07:22 <ais523> the fact that it's called out in the name implies to me that it should be more dramatic than a regular syntax error
19:09:02 <zseri> hm, currently it does nothing more that raising a syntax error, yes
19:10:24 <zseri> but the name is just a parody of TEWELSWAC, because it removes the restriction the each command needs a colon before it.
19:15:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53391&oldid=53138 * Zseri * (+129) Turing-complete
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20:17:49 <wob_jonas> This host-augment mechanic seems totally unworthy of Unstable, because the whole mechanic could be done in black-bordered land. With the meld rules already in place, it would need only like a page of very simple extra rules.
20:18:12 <wob_jonas> There's no un-land strangeness like you'd expect from a major feature of an un-set.
20:18:54 <ais523> wob_jonas: you could word it differently to make it fit into the rules
20:18:57 <wob_jonas> Now, some of the rest of the cards Unstable brings are certainly silver-border land stuff, sure. But augment seems to be one of the main mechanics.
20:19:05 <ais523> have a keyword action on hosts that happens when they ETB and can also be triggered by other things
20:19:13 <ais523> then have augments trigger the same keyword action when their triggers happen
20:19:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: even without working differently it could work with some Comprehensive Rules support.
20:19:39 <wob_jonas> It's not like it leads to a lot of broken invariants or contradictory situations.
20:20:01 <ais523> it's not much weirder than bestow, really
20:21:45 <wob_jonas> You just need a few rules to handle some things, like how putting the augment to play is treated by certain replacements or triggers that care about moving objects, about what layer and timestamp the augment overwriting the characteristics of the host is at and which parts of it count as abilities or even characteristic-defining abilities.
20:21:54 <wob_jonas> Also how it combines with copy effects.
20:22:17 <wob_jonas> I think putting the augment into play is the only tricky part.
20:22:35 <wob_jonas> Anyway, it certainly needs like a page of new rules, but it's not something that could be done.
20:24:34 <ais523> the main tricky thing in augments is that they act like auras but aren't
20:24:51 <ais523> meanwhile, half-squirrel half-pony has me worried from a balance point of view
20:25:07 <ais523> it's only two cards, costing 2GW, and goes infinite with any ETB effect
20:25:22 <wob_jonas> no, definitely don't act like auras. the complete resulting hybrid should be copiable by a Clone as is IMO.
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20:27:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: hmm... yes, that sounds sort of like a Kiki-Jiki loop
20:34:03 <wob_jonas> And contraptions don't seem much more silver-bordered than conspiracies and schemes either.
20:34:07 <zzo38> Contraptions seem it could work, but only as non-traditional cards and not in a "main" set.
20:34:11 <ais523> it reminds me of copycat
20:34:26 <ais523> I think contraptions are only silver-bordered because they're excessively complex
20:34:36 <ais523> (which kind-of makes sense for something named "contraptions")
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20:35:16 <wob_jonas> but then, maybe they just can't put many non-black-bordered effects to cards at low rarities, because people simply wouldn't be able to play games because of all the rules questions
20:37:28 <wob_jonas> so they reserve the silver-bordered effects to rares and a few uncommons, like Dr. Julius Jumblemorph and Mary O'Kill, as well as do physical dexterity effects at uncommon like the chaos orb cards that Unstable has.
20:38:15 <zzo38> Will they have anything relating to 100.6b?
20:38:28 <wob_jonas> On the plus side, at least Unstable uses dice rolling instead of coin flipping. I hate flipping coins.
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20:40:29 <ais523> zzo38: I haven't seen anything relating to that yet
20:40:39 <ais523> however, there's a card Rules Lawyer which makes you and your permanents immune to state-based actions
20:40:51 <ais523> which is a really fundamental thing to change the behaviour of
20:41:00 <wob_jonas> Oh, chapter 1 rules remind me. Did you notice that if you are pulled into a game by Kindslaver, then according to comp rules, you can't resign, so there's no easy rules-satisfying way to get away from the game even if you don't want to play.
20:41:31 <wob_jonas> On the other hand, since you're not a player, no effects known force you to do any manual dexterity stuff.
20:41:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: if you just leave the game, wouldn't that cause the player whose turn it is to incur slow play penalties?
20:42:01 <ais523> or, hmm, given that you're in control of the turn, maybe you incur the penalty?
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20:48:28 <zzo38> I also prefer dice instead of flip coins, if they are dice with six or more sides (dice with only four sides doesn't work so well).
20:50:12 <zzo38> I would think leaving the game even if you do not want to (or do not know how to) play game due to Kindslaver is going to be beyond the scope of the game rules anyways; of course you can leave anyways, although you will be disqualified. It doesn't matter, since you were not qualified anyways. It is still unclear what is happen if you do leave, though, since you aren't one of the players.
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20:50:40 <wob_jonas> Do you think the Unstable card names "Sacrifice Play" and "Target Minotaur" are because of some effect in Unstable that often cares about such names in practice, like a gotcha effect?
20:51:15 <zzo38> I don't know, although I invented a card once named "Target Wizard" which has ambiguous text.
20:51:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure you can leave, but what happens to the game state then?
20:51:30 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, that is the question. It seem impossible to answer.
20:51:46 <zzo38> (But, it is Un-cards, so questions that are impossible to answer will occasionally come up.)
20:51:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: gotcha is very unlikely to come back
20:51:56 <ais523> because Mark Rosewater considers it the largest design mistake ever
20:52:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, not gotcha in particular, but some other effect that cares about words
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21:06:03 <Roger9> Hm. An esoteric keyboard layout could have a 'move' button as well as 'delete' and 'insert'.
21:08:05 <wob_jonas> Roger9: um, some programs do have a move button.
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21:09:54 <Roger9> wob_jonas: keyboard layoutb
21:10:35 <Roger9> wob_jonas: I was referring to keys.
21:11:17 <wob_jonas> yes, but they do use some key (say F2 or F7) to move stuff
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03:56:11 <HackEgo> garit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:57:33 <garit> Im here not for languages as is, but for rare questions that i might have that normal people can't answer
03:58:50 <shachaf> You should fix your connection, you're parting and rejoining too much.
04:01:52 <garit> There was a problem that network killed me for too many channels, i fixed that (removed some channels from autojoin). Should he within 3 disconnects per day or less now
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17:23:45 <zseri> https://youtu.be/YP8m4HbyzhI
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22:16:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DMC * New user account
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22:25:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53392&oldid=53389 * DMC * (+436)
22:28:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53393&oldid=53392 * DMC * (+14)
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22:36:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53394&oldid=53393 * DMC * (+67)
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00:34:22 <lambdabot> ENVA 212350Z 10011KT CAVOK M10/M14 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 11007KT
00:35:11 <Roger9> Hmm... well, I understand the 'WIND' bit. And maybe the '670FT' bit.
00:35:40 <oerjan> the 212350Z bit is date and time
00:36:32 <oerjan> M10/ is temperature, /M14 is dew point temperature (afaiu if they're close it's humid.)
00:36:45 <oerjan> the rest is pretty vague to me as well.
00:38:05 <boily> quintopia: I am worked. I hate bureaucracy :D
00:39:40 <Roger9> It's a political system in which squirrels rule the nation, and burrow (aka bureau) their nuts.
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00:43:54 <oerjan> `# Stolen from Roger9//`learn Bureaucracy (from French bureau, "burrow") is a political system in which squirrels rule the nation, and burrow their nuts.
00:43:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'bureaucracy': Bureaucracy (from French bureau, "burrow") is a political system in which squirrels rule the nation, and burrow their nuts.
00:50:58 <lambdabot> CYUL 220000Z 15005KT 15SM SCT160 BKN240 05/M02 A2978 RMK AC4CI2 SLP087
00:51:03 <boily> strangely warm today.
00:52:27 <boily> Roger9: where is your nearest airport?
00:55:52 <Roger9> boily: I have no idea.
00:58:02 <boily> no airports at all where you live?
01:09:15 <Roger9> I'm... not that into airports to be honest.
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01:15:17 <lambdabot> EGLL 220050Z AUTO 23015KT 9999 BKN019 14/10 Q1004
01:15:32 <fizzie> You said something about strangely warm?
01:15:48 <fizzie> They're saying it's going to be 16 tomorrow.
01:16:05 <fizzie> (Then it'll go back to normal.)
01:20:13 <oerjan> here it's about -10 now but will go up to nearly +10 in a couple days
01:23:23 <lambdabot> KOAK 220053Z 31005KT 10SM FEW100 BKN180 17/13 A3008 RMK AO2 SLP186 T01670133
01:32:48 <boily> helloochaf. you and your tropical weather :P
01:32:56 <boily> quintopia: what's a demoli?
01:33:12 <lambdabot> KSAN 220051Z 33004KT 10SM FEW200 FEW250 24/04 A3001 RMK AO2 SLP162 T02390044 $
01:33:21 <lambdabot> LLBG 220120Z 27013KT 9999 BKN045 17/07 Q1015 TEMPO -RA BKN030
01:34:07 <boily> fungot: do you do you saint tropez?
01:34:07 <fungot> boily: i guess, but you probably get banned for behaving like an asshole, and not for anything else
01:37:13 <fizzie> fungot: Stop being coherent, it's weird.
01:37:13 <fungot> fizzie: bindings from other programs? i have fnord) gold. :)
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02:13:12 <quintopia> demoli is the best psychonauts speedrunner
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02:14:38 * ais523 wonders what sort of non-asshole behaviour would typically be considered banworthy
02:14:56 <shachaf> Are Psychonauts speed runs interesting?
02:15:09 <shachaf> Do they get all the figments?
02:15:23 <shachaf> I guess they do sometimes.
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02:25:42 <oerjan> /ban doesthiswork1 What a stupid question
02:32:46 <ais523> doesthiswork1: places in general
02:33:08 <ais523> right, this is what 100% speedruns are normally for
02:33:13 <ais523> making sure you collect everything collectable
02:33:19 <ais523> any% lets you collect any proportion of it
02:33:21 <shachaf> Apparently for Psychonauts it's 101% speed runs.
02:33:38 <ais523> (in some games that's 0% but in many games, collecting some proportion allows you to go faster)
02:34:04 <shachaf> "This trick requires levitation. While in midair, press and hold 'Float' (default: Shift) to begin floating. Now, while still holding Float, rapidly alternate pressing 'Jump' (default: Spacebar) and the psi power key that you assigned levitate to (typically this is the 3rd slot). If you alternate fast enough, Raz will begin to rise slowly. This can be repeated indefinetly to reach any height, and skip ma
02:34:04 <ais523> there are even a few games where any% = 100%, typically because the reward for collecting everything is so good it makes the rest of the game considerably faster
02:34:10 <shachaf> ny parts of the game. If you alter your cadence, you can also use it to cover horizontal distance quickly."
02:34:37 <shachaf> When is Psychonauts 2 coming out?
02:34:41 <quintopia> shachaf: it doesnt work on xbox or with vsync on
02:34:57 <shachaf> Do you really believe that?
02:38:18 <quintopia> they have been meeting all their milestones so far. i think wed know in advance if it werent going to happen
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02:49:46 <shachaf> How much would you pay for a contract that paid $100 if they release it on or before Dec 2019?
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04:19:10 <doesthiswork1> how much are you offering for the option to purchase that contract for $50 on Jan 2020?
04:20:42 <shachaf> That sounds needlessly complicated.
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04:50:20 <oerjan> shachaf: sounds a bit derivative
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08:46:19 <Vorpal> what the hell is going on with all the /me?
08:47:22 <Vorpal> also why did this show up in here * Sigyn sets modes [#freenode +qz $~a]
08:47:31 <Vorpal> maybe my IRC client is bugging out and mixing up channels???
08:48:13 <Vorpal> well znc or hexchat might be messing up
08:49:02 <Vorpal> hm something is very broken. Nothing happens on /join or /part of various channels
08:50:44 <Vorpal> restarted the IRC client, lets see if it helps
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10:02:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53395&oldid=53388 * Zzo38 * (-16) Now the name is given. Will move
10:02:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Zzo38 * moved [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 1]] to [[Crement]]: Named by [[User:Ais523]]
10:02:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Zzo38 * moved [[User talk:Zzo38/Untitled 1]] to [[Talk:Crement]]: Named by [[User:Ais523]]
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13:13:08 <b_jonas> In M:tG, is the name of the "By Gnome Means" card https://media.wizards.com/2017/ust/en_xqPx77FNyw.png supposed to be something like Gnome Ann https://www.xkcd.com/1704/ ?
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15:30:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53400&oldid=53391 * Zseri * (+251) +local variables
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16:08:10 <zseri> I added support for local variables to XTW, because it was too complex to simulate them using nested objects.
16:10:20 <zseri> (which are simulated using nested objects and local vars are then simulated using objects which save the state of every local var, which is complex, error-prone and confusing)
16:27:06 <Roger9> zseri: A concept I had in mind was 'first-class scopes': a scope would have a parent, map variable names to variable values, and the code would currently be running in the 'current scope'.
16:32:09 <Roger9> This first-class implementation would make supporting closures much easier. A function would have a parent scope (that refers to the current scope when the function was created), a list of parameters, and a block of code. The code would be run in a new scope, whose parent would be the function's creator scope, and would match the parameters to their arguments (along with maybe a return keyword to match to the caller's continuation).
16:32:34 <Roger9> Closures would simply be functions which access variables in their creator scope.
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16:48:43 <zseri> I think I could integrate this concept in XTW by mapping ::l::__ to the parent scope and so on like ::l::__::..
16:50:10 <zseri> I need to keep track of special variables in the interpreter (in the symbol table, which maps variable name to numbers and uses them at runtime)
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17:38:58 <zseri> but I think that one level (::l::__::var) is enough
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18:17:24 <zseri> ok, I resolve parent namespaces recursively
18:18:35 <zseri> NOTE : I don't implement first-class scopes, but emulate that with dynamic resolved namespaces.
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18:31:46 <zseri> done. https://github.com/zserik/zxtw/blob/master/examples/lclparent.xtw (output: before: 1\nafter: 2\n)
18:36:35 <zseri> it's easier to emulate first-class scopes with dynamic namespace with resolving them partly at startup-time (before the interpreter builds the bytecode) and the rest done at runtime (could be done at startup-time too, I would just need to cache how many scopes to skip)
18:38:25 <zseri> instead of emulating first-class scopes with compose at scope-push and decompose at scope-pop (with dereferencing)
18:39:30 <quintopia> namespaces, as the man said, are one honking great idea
18:52:47 <zseri> One disadvantage of the interpreter is that it suppports functions only at global scope (not inside a namespace) but a function name prefixed with a namespace. It supports namespace at global scope and inside functions
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20:51:48 <Roger9> 'Ello, ais523. Having trouble with your connection or somethin'?
20:52:13 <ais523> I basically always have trouble with my connection
20:52:22 <ais523> that's why my default quit message apologises for it
20:52:29 <ais523> (in the rare cases where it's actually working, I override it manually)
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21:04:27 <ais523> Roger9: the weather here tonight is terrible (some amount of rain, and a huge amount of wind); that might have something to do with the connection's unreliability
21:07:07 <ais523> it's pretty bad even normally though
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22:05:30 <wob_jonas> so it looks like neither git nor mercurial currently supports partial checkouts, as in cloning parts of a large repository selected by pathnames without having to store the rest of the data on my disk or transfering it through hard disk. Svn supports this, although there are some limitations.
22:05:38 <wob_jonas> This is a very important feature to me.
22:05:43 <ais523> so it turns out Half-Squirrel Half-Pony actually got errata
22:06:03 <wob_jonas> If you happen to know that git or mercurial has gained ability to do this since I heard these info, then PLEASE tell me.
22:06:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't think the git/mercurial storage model is intended for repositories where that feature would be useful
22:06:31 <wob_jonas> I know a little about how a git repo works, and I'm quite sure that it should be possible to support this, it's just that the commands don't currently implement it.
22:06:33 <ais523> as it happens I'm currently working on a new VCS (scapegoat-inspired but less innovative and thus more likely to be useful/used in practice)
22:06:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: no, there'd be no way to create a new commit
22:06:53 <ais523> as the hash of that commit would involve the hash of all the files in other directories
22:07:03 <ais523> which you don't have because you didn't check it out
22:07:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: but the hash of a tree is computed from just the hash of tree and file objects it contains
22:08:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: if I have a tree where some children aren't stored locally, their *hashes* would still be stored locally, so I can create a new version of that tree by copying those hashes (and names), and recompute the new hash for it
22:08:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: this is for git, I don't know about mercurial
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22:08:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i didn't care about vcs at all back when it was a thing but i've learned git since
22:09:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: basically, the /original/ big idea was that each line would have a record of where it came from, meaning that merges could be implemented safely with less context in the files themselves
22:09:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: I still think it is likely possible to extend svn to a distributed vcs, and this would have some advantages: (1) it could be compatible with existing svn servers and repositories, that is, I could pull from a remote repo without that repo knowing anything about the distributed extension,
22:09:18 <ais523> (and likewise, unsafe merges could easily be detected)
22:09:35 <ais523> wob_jonas: how would you handle commit numbers?
22:09:43 <wob_jonas> (2) svn already handles the storage of objects and delta compression for you, which you can definitely reuse, and you can probably resuse its diff and merge tools as well
22:10:43 <ais523> I thought svn was famously bad at merging? or was that a different VCS?
22:11:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: that was older versions of svn
22:11:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: versions before 1.5 or 1.6 or something
22:12:16 <ais523> anyway, the problem I've come up across, which is leading me to think a new VCS is really needed
22:12:28 <ais523> is a scenario where two related forks of a project exist that want to share some code, but not all of it
22:12:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: basically I'd have branches in the local repo that track the remote repo, and you can't commit into them directly, just like in git. the extension would pull into them, and store the correspondence with remote objects (with path and version number in remote repo), technically stored in svn properties
22:12:44 <ais523> (this is obviously the case in the whole NetHack variants situation, but I can't imagine that's the only place where it happens)
22:13:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: so you're basically trying to use svn branches like git branches, which are like git remotes?
22:13:13 <ais523> that doesn't seem completely nonviable
22:14:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: svn already lets you have a read-only mirror or a dump-restore of a repository with only parts of the repo included, and can omit commits that don't modify the parts kept, thus skewing commit numbers. it has tools for this. what it can't do is pushing back, which I admit is a MUCH harder problem.
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22:15:10 <ais523> hmm… in the VCS I'm working on, you could check out a single directory but only if no commits had been made to that directory and to a file outside that directory at the same time
22:15:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes. the idea behind that is that this way you can use such a branch for any read-only operation that svn already supports, such as childing or merging from it. the extension would have to map parents and mergeinfo in a tricky way.
22:15:26 <ais523> how would that interact with your usecase for checking out a single directory?
22:15:31 <ais523> (what is the reason, incidentally?)
22:15:42 <lambdabot> EGLL 222150Z AUTO 20020KT 9999 SCT026 BKN031 15/10 Q0990 TEMPO RA
22:15:56 <lambdabot> EGBB 222150Z 20020G34KT 160V220 9999 SCT023 SCT043 14/10 Q0983
22:16:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't understand your question
22:16:27 <fizzie> I think we're having some "G"s as well, even if it's not listed.
22:16:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, you want to check out a single directory from a repo
22:16:46 <ais523> I'm asking why, because that influences what implementation techniques a VCS could use for that
22:18:53 <ais523> like, if a VCS supported checking out a single directory but had limitations, would the limitations affect you?
22:20:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, they'd affect me. more like I want to clone and fetch a single directory, or more generally any set of objects, from a remote repo, and I want to be able to unfetch (delete local copy) any object, fetch new objects, and modify what will be fetched later (set paths to automatically fetch new children or not).
22:20:09 <wob_jonas> But I know that supporting this in full generality is difficult:
22:20:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm still interested in what's in this repository?
22:20:58 <wob_jonas> it's especially difficult if I want to fetch an object that is the parent of an object that was already fetched, because to do that with the svn representation, I have to recreate the local version of all the descendant objects as new vanilla svn objects.
22:21:03 <wob_jonas> that's still possible, but difficult.
22:21:41 <ais523> what do you mean by parent/child here?
22:22:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: in git, every commit has usually one but generally any number of parents, which are earlier versions of the commit. in svn, commits don't have that, but each directory/file version has one (or sometimes zero) parent which is the immediate previous version of that object, and can be at any path as long as it's in an earlier commit,
22:23:31 <wob_jonas> and zero or more additional objects marked as extra ancestors merged into it. (there's also the restriction that directory and non-directory objects can't be mixed in parental relationship)
22:23:58 <wob_jonas> so svn tracks moves or copies of individual files or directories.
22:24:03 <ais523> oh, "earlier versions of the commit" isn't a way to describe it, really
22:24:06 <ais523> but I know what parent are in git
22:24:22 <ais523> just wasn't sure that was the terminology you were using
22:25:16 <wob_jonas> an svn working tree (checkout) can already be partial, it has local copy of usually just the latest versions of objects, but it can mix-match any local path in the checkout with any path-version in the remote repo, and stores pristine copies of each of those files
22:26:12 <wob_jonas> you can switch any local path to point to any path-version of the remote repo, set them to automatically check out new files in a checked out directory or not, and update paths to later versions of the same path easily
22:26:56 <wob_jonas> (there's some limitations, some obvious because only directories can have files or directories in them, some apparently just limitation of the programs about what you can modify, and some limitation about subrepositories which are like git modules)
22:27:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: so anyway, about your main question about why partial checkouts are useful for me
22:28:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: as long as you're always connected to a single writable central svn server (there can be any number of read-only mirrors, but no read-write ones), you can conveniently use svn to store big files or big directory trees.
22:29:26 <wob_jonas> these aren't source code, but dependencies (possibly binary) that you often want to check out together with the rest of the project to build the project, or data, or whatever
22:29:32 <wob_jonas> you can also store multiple projects together
22:29:43 <wob_jonas> svn partial checkouts make this easy
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22:29:57 <ais523> storing multiple projects together is in general a bad idea because there's no obvious advantage over doing it separately
22:30:16 <ais523> although, what I'm working on /would/ be able to handle that if nobody ever committed to both projects in the same commit
22:30:21 <wob_jonas> you can replace an entire binary dependency with a new version, such that their difference doesn't compress well, and only the server will have to store older versions
22:30:38 <ais523> for binary dependencies, would it be OK to store the hashes of all those dependencies? just not download the dependencies themselves?
22:30:57 <wob_jonas> we want to store multiple projects together because one project can want to pull part of the code of another project, without making full dependency, and then want to merge bugfixes from them
22:31:03 <ais523> I assume it would be, because the number of files involved is still manageable, it's just the files themselves that are too large
22:31:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: often you want to download the big binary dependency, but not all previous versions of that dependency.
22:31:41 <wob_jonas> but sometimes you only want to download some of the dependencies, because they're big.
22:31:44 <ais523> most VCSes can do that already, including git
22:31:52 <ais523> that is, download only the most recent version
22:32:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think git can do that only on a full repo. you could try to store deps in git submodules
22:32:10 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I've not read the context here, but we have this thing called https://bitbucket.org/Google/narrowhg that sounded like plausibly relevant.
22:32:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, git needs the most recent version of each file
22:33:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: but also you can't get full history of some files, but only latest version of other files, within the same git repo
22:33:17 <wob_jonas> it should be possible, but isn't with current tools
22:33:30 <ais523> right, that's just a UI problem I think?
22:33:40 <ais523> in that the UI doesn't give any easy way to do that
22:33:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, which is why I'm asking if git has solved this since
22:33:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: they've already solved multiple worktrees (checkouts) with only one object storage
22:34:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: another thing though is that even without partial checkouts, I would want a distributed version of svn
22:34:29 <ais523> I think the way to go in terms of implementing this would be a lazy repository in which objects are retrieved only when their content is requested, and only directly to the filesystem
22:34:31 <ais523> you'd need to work online
22:34:39 <ais523> but it means that no more would be downloaded than actually necessary
22:34:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: two things you could do with a distributed version are (a) maintaining a forked project of a project where I never push back because they don't like me, but I can pull newer versions of that original project and merge into mine
22:35:27 <wob_jonas> and (b) committing revisions locally while I don't have access to the central writable server because no network connection or something
22:35:42 <wob_jonas> or even committing local branches that I don't want to share until I clean them up
22:35:57 <wob_jonas> people do all these things in git,
22:36:47 <ais523> why would you want svn in particular for that? because the people-who-don't-like-you happen to be using svn and you can't persuade them to change?
22:36:49 <fizzie> wob_jonas: For your case (a), I was using a thing where I had git and SVN share a checkout.
22:36:49 <wob_jonas> and they aren't incompatible with pulling from a central server, and in (b) you can push some or all of your commits to the central server later, while each repo has an immutable history
22:37:11 <ais523> but git-svn works very well for both those cases
22:38:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: if I understand correctly, in git-svn the local branches and commits are git branches and commits. I like svn and the way it handles files and renames and stuff, and don't want to lose that. but yes, that's a good point, git-svn may help with some of the model, especially if you already like git
22:39:37 <ais523> what git-svn basically does is to create a git remote that mirrors a given branch of an svn repository, I think
22:39:47 <ais523> although it can also commit to the branch
22:39:53 <ais523> as long as you have a linear history
22:40:18 <ais523> (the git-svn equivalent of git pull is git svn rebase, in order to ensure that the history stays linear; it pulls the remote changes then rebases your local changes on top)
22:40:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and it's the commit back part with proper tracking of ancestry and merges that's hard. we already have tools to read-only mirror part of a remote svn repository to a local svn repo.
22:42:57 <wob_jonas> because the moment you want to push back, you have to figure out how to set all the parent and mergeinfo for the new objects in the remote repo.
22:42:58 <fizzie> Regarding the earlier discussion fork, narrowhg lets you have a shallow copy of all files and a deep history (optionally up to N revisions) of some specific subset of files, though (IIUC) you can't have different depths for the not-entirely-shallow files.
22:43:34 <wob_jonas> fizzie: let me look at that. can you also have no versions at all of some paths?
22:44:54 <wob_jonas> Just to briefly mention other version control systems. (1) cvs can do partial checkouts, but I think svn can already do anything that cvs can do, and cvs hasn't gained new features for like a decade, so it's safe to discard it except for compatibility,
22:45:02 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I forgot. Maybe it was actually more limited than that, and you actually could only get either files (up to depth N) or no files at all, but not shallow copies of everything.
22:45:48 <ais523> wob_jonas: what about rcs? :-P
22:45:57 <wob_jonas> (2) darcs is like developped by some alien race and I didn't understand anything they say about how their vcs works, and (3) fossil now lets you create forks of a read-only repository and merge to it from the remote, sort of like private branches, but I believe it doesn't do partial checkouts,
22:46:03 <Roger9> This has probably been done before, but I'm messing around with a hypothetical language that compiles into BF.
22:46:05 <wob_jonas> (4) I didn't look at bazaar at all.
22:46:51 <ais523> (in RCS you're supposed to work directly on the machine holding the repository, the "check out" operation is more like a locking operation)
22:46:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think rcs is something that used to count as a "version control system" back when it was created, but doesn't count as one in the modern sense. or something.
22:47:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's a non-concurrent VCS
22:47:31 <ais523> it does control versions, it just doesn't control access in any but the crudest way
22:47:49 <ais523> (you have one repo per file, checking out the repo locks the file, then checking the repo back in will unlock the file and record a commit)
22:47:59 <ais523> come to think of it, this is probably where the terms checkout/checkin come from
22:48:09 <ais523> even though they make no sense in the context of something like cvs or git
22:49:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and "commit" is cleverly chosen so that the "cvs ci" abbreviated command would sound like either "commit" or "checkin", depending on whether you're a new cvs user or someone used to rcs
22:49:56 <wob_jonas> because cvs was originally designed as a better rcs, but later got important in itself,
22:50:25 <wob_jonas> just like how svn was originally a better cvs, but these days it develops on its own without regard to cvs,
22:50:46 <wob_jonas> and both rcs and cvs are probably not developed further with new features, and cvs hasn't even had a new release for several years
22:51:36 <wob_jonas> mind you, no new release for several years is fine for a mature tool if there aren't important bugs, I had no problem with no how the 7z compressor utility with windows GUI hasn't had a new release for like six years
22:52:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: so wait, you said you're developing a new version control system that isn't scapegoat. do you wish to tell a bit more about this?
22:53:15 <wob_jonas> or did you only say you're planning this new system?
22:53:38 <ais523> currently at the stage of a) planning, b) learning enough git internals to be able to write an importer
22:53:59 <ais523> I'm planning to use git as the backend in order to get a lot of functionality for free and take advantage of things like public git hosting sitse
22:54:12 <ais523> also because git was intended to be a VCS backend rather than a VCS itself
22:55:01 <wob_jonas> "Half-Squirrel Half-Pony actually got errata" wait what? I haven't read the setFAQ yet
22:55:30 <ais523> I'm really disappointed in it
22:55:52 <ais523> mostly because with many cards, how they're meant to work, and how the FAQ says they work, is different from what you'd assume based on the wording of the card
22:56:08 <ais523> there's a big departure from the "cards mean what they say" that you normally get on black-bordered cards
22:56:29 <ais523> presumably the templating team ran away from the set
22:57:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: my take on that is that MaRo is really bad at rules, he should never have been allowed to be even the un-rules manager, and we should just ignore everything he says about un-rulings and make up our own rules that make sense
22:57:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: even for unhinged, many of his rulings make no sense. for unstable, there's much more cards that would work in black-bordered, and he's publishing a lot of rulings about them.
22:57:57 <ais523> it says something that the half-squirrel half-pony errata was done by eli shiffrin (i.e. the /real/ rules manager)
22:58:06 <wob_jonas> I'll read them for flavor, but I'll not try to take them as meaningful rulings.
22:58:24 <ais523> he says he was really surprised that the errata actually works in black border, because it inspects a property of the card that no current card inspects
22:59:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: where's this errata? is it in MaRo's FAQ?
22:59:13 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, but the metadiscussion about it happened on the Reddit thread about the FAQ
22:59:25 <ais523> or possibly about the erratum itself
22:59:48 <wob_jonas> oh yeah, the discussion for future errata used to happen in the old-style web forum that wizards maintained, until they closed it
22:59:53 <wob_jonas> there's even one comp rules modification that I promoted
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23:03:14 <wob_jonas> (reading article) WHAT? that's not even what the card says.
23:05:16 <ais523> wob_jonas: which card in particular?
23:05:31 <wob_jonas> Ah! So those red creatures on the packaging are beebles!
23:05:56 <wob_jonas> I didn't recognize them. Beebles used to be of a more rounded shape and less red.
23:06:40 <\oren\> I ordered a supervillian laptop
23:07:32 <wob_jonas> what does a supervillian laptop mean?
23:07:53 <\oren\> https://www.sagernotebook.com/Notebook-NP9175.html
23:08:32 <\oren\> means it will probably double as a haridryer
23:08:35 <ais523> wob_jonas: hmm, which part of Better Than One surprised you? the fact that you have a shared life total?
23:09:01 <ais523> oh, the fact that you get attacked as a team, probably
23:09:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: that, and that it uses the rules for two-headed giant in general, not the default rules
23:09:10 <ais523> but yes, the card makes it look more like traditional multiplayer than 2HG
23:09:58 <wob_jonas> \oren\: mind you, I ordered a new copy of my heavy clicky keyboard (after ruining mine by spilling tea on it), and it's branded "Demon King". not quite a "supervillian", but still an antagonist.
23:11:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: the augment and especially the contraption rules are also a bit strange, but at least there there's clearly a new keyword or supertype where the rules have to be decided, not just a plain card where you don't expect strange rules
23:11:42 <ais523> the functional reprints of black-bordered cards are also surprising
23:11:51 <ais523> like the card costing 4GG with trample and no other abilities
23:12:13 <ais523> why would a card like that need a silver border?
23:12:33 <ais523> (IIRC, it doesn't have any silly stuff on its typeline or the like, either)
23:16:16 <\oren\> but wob_jonas that keyboard doesn't glow
23:16:29 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I don't want a glowing one
23:16:39 <wob_jonas> I don't understand the point of a glowing keyboard
23:17:15 <fizzie> wob_jonas: You can indicate the status of different things (like passing builds) by differently glowing keys.
23:17:34 <fizzie> \oren\: Sager == Clevo, right?
23:17:50 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I have a monitor for indicating things
23:18:13 <ais523> oh, the most obvious reason for glowing keys for me would be to easily place my hands on the keyboard when I'm working in near-total darkness
23:18:16 <wob_jonas> and I'm looking at the monitor a lot, but not much at the keyboard
23:18:18 <wob_jonas> it seems the whole set is revealed now
23:18:35 <ais523> there are indents on the F and J (and numpad 5) on most keyboards but they're often very subtle and hard to find
23:19:13 <ais523> so normally I either switch to a window with a white background, getting more illumination from the screen, or else move to a text boxt that accepts input and experimentally type a few letters to determine where my hands are
23:19:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't want to work in near-total darkness, because it hurts my eyes to look at a screen when the environment is too dark. I know there are people who this doesn't bother.
23:19:29 <ais523> an illuminated keyboard would be a more direct fix to the problem
23:19:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: eyestrains caused by looking at something that's dimmer / harder to make out than the surrounding environment
23:20:01 <ais523> so darkness around the computer should in theory be the optimum for avoiding eyestrain
23:20:16 <ais523> but eyes are also hurt by focusing continuously at the same range for a long period of time
23:20:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, that's not true. the problem is that if the environment is dark, your pupils extend too much
23:20:33 <ais523> if the only thing you can see is your nearby screen, you have problems with that
23:20:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, I try to make the screen very dark too
23:20:45 <ais523> minimum brightness and black backgrounds almost everywhere
23:23:18 <wob_jonas> wait. Eager Beaver? how does green get an untap ability that works on any type of permanent? that doesn't make sense color-wise.
23:23:39 <wob_jonas> blue or rarely white can get that ability, green shouldn't
23:23:57 <ais523> green always used to be able to untap, I think?
23:24:15 <ais523> but then they moved away from that into just untapping lands
23:24:15 <wob_jonas> (which is already hard to balance, mind you)
23:24:21 <ais523> white can untap creatures, can it untap anything else?
23:24:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: can't remember any offhand
23:24:50 <ais523> cards which mess around with mass untapping tend to be UG nowadays
23:25:20 <ais523> not sure, I don't remember seeing it in the list of functional reprints but I didn't memorise the list in detail
23:25:24 <wob_jonas> UG would be fine. but beaver is pure green.
23:26:27 <\oren\> dimensions: 16.46" (w) x 11.63" (d) x 1.61" (h)
23:26:45 <ais523> does it even make sense to say which dimension is which?
23:26:58 <ais523> as in, isn't which dimension is which determined by their relative sizes rather than vice versa?
23:27:14 <\oren\> yeah well it's certainly inferrable
23:27:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: it can make sense for some types of objects
23:27:34 <wob_jonas> ones that have fixed elements on a certain side
23:27:49 <fizzie> I think even a hypothetical laptop could well have d > w.
23:28:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: like a washing machine would have its door on either the front, or the top and open backwards, so it helps to know which is the depth and which is the width
23:28:31 <ais523> fizzie: you're assuming that the hinge is on the boundary between the wide and high sides
23:28:45 <ais523> I'm not sure that's any more valid an assumption than that the wide side is longer than the deep side
23:29:01 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think I'm assuming that.
23:29:03 <ais523> I guess the distinction between wide and deep here is the orientation of the keyboard, though?
23:29:17 <fizzie> I'm assuming width is the axis the spacebar is congruent to.
23:29:40 <\oren\> like, a laptop could have a portrait display
23:30:00 <\oren\> i've never heard of such thing, but it could...
23:30:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: the hinge doesn't have to be close to the edge. older laptops have a screen narrower than the base part, and a large battery part behind the hinge in the base part.
23:30:14 <ais523> and at least one much-advertised laptop has no hinge at all
23:30:27 <ais523> the screen component is entirely separate from the keyboard component
23:30:48 <ais523> maybe that helps prevent it breaking, the hinge tends to be the most fragile part of a laptop…
23:31:36 <ais523> anyway, I'm going to see if anywhere round here sells water at 11:30pm
23:31:46 <ais523> normally I'd be home this late, but the water supply is under maintenance
23:31:47 <wob_jonas> so now we know what the mythic vanilla is. tricky.
23:32:05 <\oren\> like, what if you had a cube-shaped computer where the top of the cube hinges up to become a square screen
23:32:07 <ais523> so I'm at work, and am not sure how easy it'll be to get something to drink
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23:32:28 <\oren\> would that even count as a 'laptop'
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23:34:18 <\oren\> hmm, or wait. suppose instead you just have a cube with a display on one side and a keyboard that slides out of the space under the screen
23:34:35 <\oren\> I guess that isn't a laptop
23:35:12 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no sliding, but very old "portable" computers in the 80s were mostly big cubes, with most of the space being taken up by a CRT, and there's a keyboard plus floppy drive that extends from below the CRT part
23:35:37 <wob_jonas> you know, before even laptops got LCDs
23:36:23 <fizzie> I think rarely really literally cubical, more rectangular cuboids.
23:36:35 <wob_jonas> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM_Portable_PC_5155_-_Retrosystems_2010.jpg
23:36:43 <wob_jonas> ^ this one actually has an ordinary keyboard connected by cable
23:36:57 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, and some of them have the front side slanted
23:37:47 <wob_jonas> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ibm5100_(2297950254).jpg this I think has a hinged keyboard in fact
23:38:43 <wob_jonas> (and we've done a full circle, because apparently many people nowadays are agent content to work with such tiny screens, it's just that the rest of the computer got lighter)
23:41:09 <wob_jonas> whoa. why are Prowling Pangolin and the new Bumbling Pangolin subtyped Beast? isn't wizards using that only for mythical animals, not cards based on real animals?
23:42:54 <quintopia> prowling pangolin--the mobile version of Ubuntu 12.04?
23:43:26 <quintopia> it's a bit less precise, but it gets around more
23:50:01 <wob_jonas> wow, they made a second card whose name starts with a quotation mark
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23:58:06 <wob_jonas> Knight of the Kitchen Sink is an actually nice silver-bordered card
23:58:22 <wob_jonas> one you couldn't do in black border, but also has clean rules
00:14:48 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/7ekwea/un3_vanilla_mythic_infinity_elemental/
00:18:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53401 * Rdococ * (+3836) This specification is... mostly complete. I think.
00:20:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53402&oldid=52824 * Rdococ * (+171) Clearing up a few things.
00:21:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53403&oldid=53402 * Rdococ * (+0)
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00:36:27 <ais523> hmm, so the choices here are
00:36:51 <ais523> a) buy bottled water from a vending machine at an exorbitant price (£1.50 for what I think was a 75cl bottle, not sure on the exact size)
00:37:18 <ais523> b) use a water fountain that's designed for wob_jonas-style use, or possibly filling up bottles of your own
00:37:53 <ais523> (it emits water straight downwards; I find the ones that shoot water upwards at an angle much more convenient because you can drink from the stream with your head in a sensible position
00:38:08 <ais523> c) go down to the surrounding city streets and find somewhere which sells water
00:38:28 <ais523> because I work at a university and thus there is a large concentration of students in the area, c) is fairly easy when it's as early as half past midnight
00:40:08 <fizzie> (d) origami out a cup from some stray paper, use it to drink from the fountain.
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00:41:08 <fizzie> From what I recall, Copy paper holds water surprisingly well (I mean, not *well* but still), if you fold it right.
00:41:32 <fizzie> (Or rather insufficiently editing.)
00:41:47 <ais523> I'm currently in a very communal area because my ID card is malfunctioning / too old and won't let me into any of the me-specific areas
00:41:57 <ais523> and in places like this, they have to charge for things like paper in order to prevent buse
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00:50:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: I have bottles of my own stored at home normally
00:51:24 <ais523> I often have a supply of bottles but can't easily transport them
00:51:25 <wob_jonas> and you can fill containers other than water
00:51:37 <ais523> anyway, I used step c) and the bottle is still here
00:51:40 <ais523> so I can just refill it
00:51:54 <wob_jonas> here if water is out for more than about four hours, there's usually a water tank vehicle brought to the street
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00:52:38 <wob_jonas> every supermarket sells bottled water here, so it's just a matter of bringing a six-pack of 1.5 liter bottles home from the closest one usually
00:53:18 <ais523> I considered taking some water with me
00:53:25 <ais523> but decided to travel light, as I knew there'd be options
00:53:31 <ais523> (that's where I got this bottle of water from, a supermarket)
00:53:34 <wob_jonas> I can lend you some but you'd have to walk like 1500 kilometers for it
00:53:41 <ais523> or, hmm, it was a bit smaller than the typical supermarket
00:53:59 <ais523> also, by the time I walk 1500km the water supply is likely to be fully working again :-P
00:55:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think Knight of the Kitchen Sink is my favorite card from Unstable
00:56:49 <HackEgo> Vaporkin \ 1U \ Creature -- Elemental \ 2/1 \ Flying \ Vaporkin can block only creatures with flying. \ THS-C, CN2-C
00:57:01 <wob_jonas> ^ Novellamental is a reprint of this under a different name
00:57:18 <ais523> aha, so it was a funcitonal reprint
00:57:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53404&oldid=53401 * Rdococ * (+4)
00:57:46 <wob_jonas> yes. Welking Tern and Tattered Hunter are two cards in modern that are similar but have different creature types
00:59:28 <ais523> 2/1 high flying for 1U doesn't seem like that good a card, I assume it's for Limited purposes
00:59:46 <ais523> although I guess it's comparable to 2/1 flying for most typical uses
01:00:00 <wob_jonas> yeah, it's not very good in constructed
01:00:04 <ais523> a 2/1 doesn't make for a great blocker, especially against ground-based creatures which you can probably block more usefully with something else
01:00:45 <ais523> 2/1 for W has been playable in some formats in the past
01:01:39 <wob_jonas> Elite Vanguard. I even have one of those.
01:02:04 <ais523> `card-by-name savannah lions
01:02:05 <HackEgo> Savannah Lions \ W \ Creature -- Cat \ 2/1 \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R, 4E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, ME4-U
01:02:14 <ais523> that was the original, and was much better back then because its competition was less good
01:02:17 <wob_jonas> also the old Savannah Lions, and a few newer cards
01:02:29 <wob_jonas> now you can even get a 2/1 for W with advantages
01:02:45 <ais523> 3/1 for 1W seems to be a fairly common line for upside cards nowadays
01:02:50 <ais523> like a hatebear but more agressive
01:02:58 <ais523> and yet it's probably not good enough?
01:03:07 <ais523> two mana normally gets you a 3/3 with minor upside if what you want is a combat creature
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01:13:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, you're right, green used to be able to untap creatures in older sets. I didn't know.
01:13:18 <HackEgo> Vitalize \ G \ Instant \ Untap all creatures you control. \ WL-C, 6E-C
01:13:39 <wob_jonas> I could have known, such abilities appear in several old cards, and not only very rare ones
01:19:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53405&oldid=53404 * Rdococ * (-12)
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01:40:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53406&oldid=53405 * Rdococ * (-4)
01:42:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53407&oldid=53406 * Rdococ * (-30)
01:44:15 <boily> shachaf: hellochaf. just watched the pumpkin pie.
01:45:19 * boily tries to make the cardboard tube call
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01:54:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53408&oldid=53407 * Rdococ * (+325) Added pointer arithmetic.
01:54:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53409&oldid=53408 * Rdococ * (-1)
01:55:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53410&oldid=53409 * Rdococ * (-1)
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05:24:17 <Sgeo> Can a player regenerate from being destroyed?
05:24:17 <Sgeo> Yes. Note there is no current way to do that. Maybe in a future Un- set.
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10:19:30 <shachaf> cook anything delicious lately?
10:19:41 <Taneb> Haven't been cooking much :(
10:21:03 <Taneb> I do need to cook more
10:21:56 <Vorpal> Taneb: what about baking?
10:22:08 <Taneb> Vorpal: same problem sadly
10:22:28 <shachaf> Is baking not a type of cooking?
10:22:39 <Vorpal> Taneb: not needing sounds like you have a superior solution though, as opposed to "not being able to" for example
10:22:58 <Vorpal> thusly, may I inquire what the superior solution is?
10:23:21 <shachaf> One trick is to apply economic pressure to get others to cook food for you.
10:24:09 <Vorpal> shachaf: that is a good one. E might be married and have a partner who prefers to cook though. That is another option
10:25:19 <Vorpal> "<Taneb> I do need to cook more" as "<Taneb> I do not need to cook any more"
10:25:41 <shachaf> Ah, that makes more sense.
10:26:39 <Taneb> Ah! Sorry for the confusion
10:27:09 <Vorpal> Taneb: the confusion was entirely on my side, no need for you to be sorry
10:27:39 <shachaf> No, *I'm* sorry for the confusion.
10:27:50 <Vorpal> shachaf: I'm sorry for you being sorry
10:28:58 <Taneb> I'm basically living on cereal, supermarket lunchtime meal deals, and microwave pasta ready meals
10:29:53 <Taneb> It's... a lot better than a couple of years ago when I wasn't even managing that
10:31:11 <Vorpal> shachaf: what does scow mean in this context. googling for a definition gave me "a large flat-bottomed boat with broad square ends used chiefly for transporting bulk material (such as ore, sand, or refuse)" which I suspect is not what you meant
10:31:24 <shachaf> I mean it in a related sense.
10:31:32 <shachaf> The etymology is "garbage scow"
10:31:43 <shachaf> "the scow of X" means something like "the worst specimen of X"
10:31:49 <HackEgo> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
10:32:03 <shachaf> HackEgo: that makes no sense tdnh
10:32:22 <Taneb> "1 GiB equals 230 bytes or 1,073,741,824 GB, or approximately 7% larger than the gigabit.
10:32:31 <Vorpal> oh, a bit like cockney rhyme then? In that you need to know some hidden layers of association in between
10:32:40 <Taneb> (from a webhosting company's website)
10:32:54 <Vorpal> Taneb: I would personally go for some other hosting company
10:37:50 <Vorpal> shachaf: no idea who they are
11:11:13 <Taneb> Vorpal: I think they're the wiki's host, which have a problem with reliability
11:23:53 <Vorpal> Taneb: who is the admin of the wiki? maybe we could host it elsewhere?
11:25:06 <Taneb> Vorpal: my understanding is that that's being looked into
11:26:52 <Vorpal> Taneb: I own a VPS, so do fizzie. I would assume there are more of us as well who could host it. Might need to upgrade to a bigger plan for bandwidth or storage, but I kind of doubt our wiki has that much traffic
11:27:46 <Vorpal> would need to install php and possibly mysql though. Think I only have postgresql on that VPS
11:27:48 <Taneb> Storage is I think the key issue
11:28:17 <Vorpal> Taneb: how much does it use for the wiki? Shouldn't be more than a couple of GB I would assume?
11:28:39 <Taneb> Honstly I don't know
11:28:51 <Taneb> fizzie is the current admin but I think Gregor has something to do with it as well?
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11:36:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: See https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Funding
11:38:23 <fizzie> Egress traffic is (IIRC) in the order of 100G/month, and we've always run it on a system with 2G of RAM, not sure how much smaller it'd fit on.
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11:38:54 <shachaf> fizzie: What's wrong with making a profit?
11:39:02 <shachaf> Or rather, with having a surplus.
11:40:30 <Vorpal> fizzie: okay, my VPS is also 2 GB, and IIRC I have either 500 GB or 1 TB traffic / month available to me, not sure about yours
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11:41:05 <Vorpal> anyway my point was, if some of us already have VPSes, maybe there is some with spare capacity
11:41:14 <shachaf> Are you confident that it'll cost <$100/year all in?
11:42:25 <fizzie> shachaf: If we go with one of the less mainstream options, I don't see why not.
11:42:58 <shachaf> And with a mainstream option?
11:43:47 <Vorpal> fizzie: we should be able to run on the smallest of even a mainstream option like linode from what I can tell
11:44:01 <Vorpal> that is 5 USD per month, so it will fit in less than 100 USD without issueds
11:44:04 <Vorpal> https://www.linode.com/pricing
11:44:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm a little suspicious about 1G of RAM, and the 2GB instance is already $120/year.
11:44:40 <Vorpal> I have had a mostly trouble free experience with their london data center the last few years, and the times I had issues their support was quick and helpful
11:45:01 <shachaf> They lost my password at least twice.
11:45:28 <Vorpal> fizzie: huh thought I had their smallest option but maybe not, htop says I have 2 GB RAM. Or 1.83 rather
11:47:12 <fizzie> I'm using DigitalOcean, and they just added a new $15/month tier with 3GB of RAM. I think I guesstimated something like $25-30/month for Amazon/Google clouds (the latter has the business-only issue).
11:48:06 <fizzie> For the record, the cheapo option would be https://www.hostens.com/vps-hosting/#hosting__plan__group-tab-vps who have a €3.99/month plan (quarterly billing, 2G RAM, KVM) and pretty reasonable user reviews around the webs.
11:48:06 <shachaf> What if we used Google Cloud US?
11:48:12 <shachaf> For example by having Gregor run it.
11:48:47 <shachaf> I'm slightly dubious of cheapo options.
11:48:47 <Gregor> In what sense is using Google Cloud US having me run it X-D
11:49:01 <fizzie> I kind of would prefer for the person looking after the MediaWiki installation to be the same person looking after the VPS, it's been a little inconvenient to have to bother someone every time some sort of control panel action is needed.
11:49:16 <fizzie> I mean, it works, but it makes me feel bad.
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11:49:31 <shachaf> Can control panel access not be given? I don't know how these things work.
11:49:56 <Gregor> Not using CaC's amazing service.
11:50:20 <Vorpal> fizzie: yeah I have the 2 GB variant
11:50:51 <shachaf> Maybe you should use Microsoft Azure
11:50:53 <Vorpal> with linode you can create users, and either give them full or restricted access. I don't know how fine grained that is
11:52:21 <Gregor> The more core point here is that I was just donating the CaC server because I had it spare. It was spare because CaC is kiiiiinda trash. However, CaC continues to be kinda trash, and it'd be good to move off of it. I don't have other servers free, or any particular reason to be the server admin.
11:52:22 <Vorpal> https://www.linode.com/docs/platform/accounts-and-passwords#setting-permissions
11:53:19 <Gregor> Just to be clear about how crap CaC is, here's my latest support ticket on my other CaC account:
11:53:21 <Vorpal> I would not want to run the server full time, I too often go away from the internet for long stretches to keep an eye on it all the time
11:53:32 <Gregor> « After a few days of my servers being inaccessible and nonfunctional, today they simply don't exist. The panel claims "install failed" for all four, when they're not new servers, and have been running for months or, in one case, years.»
11:53:44 <Gregor> CaC's response? «This ticket has been closed due to inactivity.»
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11:55:42 <Vorpal> <shachaf> They lost my password at least twice. <-- by the way, how do you mean? Lost the hash of your password in their user db??
11:56:12 <Vorpal> Gregor: does someone (you?) have database and configuration backups of the wiki?
11:56:17 <fizzie> I've got a VPS for my own purposes, but it's tiny (512M of RAM), and anyway personally I'd not share it with the wiki. If we want to keep the wiki-admin == VPS-admin equality (I'm at least around enough, probably), I might just go ahead and pick the cheapo option and trust there's enough interest to cover that (relatively tiny) amount. Just not sure what's the best way to go around it.
11:56:32 <Gregor> Vorpal: I believe I have backups of everything.
11:56:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've got weekly backups here as well of everything wiki-relevant.
11:57:02 <shachaf> Vorpal: I think so. Or at leat told me to change my password for some reason.
11:57:10 <shachaf> I remember they lost password hashes at least once.
11:57:22 <fizzie> I believe there's also some other people downloading the public dump, which has all the articles but not the users & suchlike.
11:58:41 <Gregor> The directories I have backed up nightly: /etc/apt /var/www/html /home /etc/nginx /etc/php5 /var/lib/mysql
11:58:47 <Gregor> If I should be backing up something else, tell me.
11:58:50 <Vorpal> fizzie: couldn't it just run as a couple of docker image or such?
11:59:15 <Vorpal> Gregor: probably /var/lib/apt, more interesting than /etc/apt
11:59:25 <shachaf> Is the cheapo option much better than AWS?
11:59:34 <Vorpal> since /var/lib/apt contains the installed package database
11:59:58 <Vorpal> shachaf: it is probably not better, might be cheaper though ;P
12:01:06 <fizzie> Gregor: You could add /srv/esolangs.org for the wiki.
12:01:57 <Gregor> Vorpal: I backup /etc/apt and selections. You can mostly reproduce /var/lib/apt from selections, albeit a newer install.
12:02:50 <fizzie> Yeah, it's probably not *better*. But a t2.small instance already has a base cost of $16.84/month, plus $8.91/month for 100G of "AWS Data Transfer Out".
12:02:54 <shachaf> What a mess apt and apt-like systems are.
12:03:23 <Gregor> shachaf: How dare you insult our lord and true king Debian.
12:03:57 <Gregor> Honestly, I think this is entirely a circumstance to cheap out on.
12:04:31 <Gregor> There are lots of cheap VPS services, many of which are just fine.
12:04:53 <Gregor> One that I use and has literally had 100% uptime in the year I've been using it emailed me this sale: https://hostslick.com/cart.php?a=add&pid=177
12:05:05 <Gregor> $35/yr is a bit better than $25/mo
12:05:39 <fizzie> Right. The €3.99/month option had pretty good reviews (re support & so on) as well, and feels low enough that I think even without any sort of structured money-collection system I might get enough ad-hoc donations to cover it.
12:05:52 <shachaf> What about option (e) fizzie pays for an expensive option out of pocket
12:06:01 <shachaf> Or option (f) fizzie gets Google to pay for it
12:06:16 <shachaf> (Or just host it while they're at it)
12:06:30 <Gregor> I could just stick it on a U. Waterloo server. I really doubt anybody would notice ;)
12:06:35 <Gregor> (Note: I won't actually do this)
12:06:45 <shachaf> (Technically Google has an infinite number of machines, so it wouldn't cost them anything.)
12:07:34 <Vorpal> fizzie: more seriously though, is there no option as a google employee to get a cheaper price for their cloud offers?
12:07:37 <fizzie> There's also the option (f)(ii), which is me paying half of it and getting Google to gift-match the rest, but that'd (a) involve setting up a separate non-profit to get to go/give, and (b) would really feel like trickery to me.
12:08:13 <shachaf> Vorpal: fizzie has no option at all to get the cloud offers at any price
12:08:32 <Vorpal> shachaf: because you need to be a business?
12:08:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: At some point there was a $30/month or so Cloud credit voucher dealie, but it's not really an option with the silliness with the Google Cloud and EU and VAT thing.
12:09:18 <fizzie> Also it's not really guaranteed to run forever.
12:09:34 <Vorpal> fizzie: yes I saw something strange about VAT when logging into linode just now. I wonder what that is about and how it will affect me
12:09:49 <fizzie> Actually, one thing I could probably leverage Google for would be to stick the esowiki backup directory (encrypted) onto Drive. As it is, it's saved on three hard disks here locally, but the offsite backup is only updated once a year or so.
12:10:00 <fizzie> (That's how often I visit Finland, where our bank safety deposit box is.)
12:10:12 <shachaf> How much Drive space do you have?
12:10:41 <shachaf> I have 1TB but I think it'll be expiring soon.
12:11:00 <Vorpal> I have dropbox instead of drive. Better linux client
12:11:06 <Vorpal> as in, any linux client
12:11:24 <fizzie> I think I've got the regular 15G freebie quota and a +50G bonus.
12:12:19 <fizzie> https://github.com/odeke-em/drive has worked for me just fine.
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12:12:53 <fizzie> (I don't really want automatic syncing anyway.)
12:12:59 <Vorpal> hm they asked for VAT number, I don't think I have that unless I have a company?
12:14:04 <Gregor> Honestly, I can't even begin to imagine why people are considering Google Cloud or Amazon or what have you. We have a small wiki. It needs a dinky server. Cloud servers are designed—and priced—for scalability UP, not scalability DOWN.
12:14:54 <Vorpal> Gregor: my point here was: do any of us who already have VPSes have spare capacity that would benefit this?
12:15:51 <Vorpal> I'd say I do on my VPS, but no I don't have time to be full time admin.
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12:23:23 <shachaf> fizzie: What if you developed a commercial code golf site with ais523?
12:23:28 <shachaf> Then you can use Google Cloud.
12:23:53 <Vorpal> shachaf: I doubt it would be very successful as a commercial thing
12:24:10 <fizzie> It doesn't need to be successful to be a "business purpose".
12:24:23 <fizzie> I should probably just do the "get a dinky server and get some ad-hoc money" option, and then afterwards consider setting up a donate button via some service if that feels appropriate.
12:24:32 <fizzie> Though I did actually for reals look at the UK rules for charities, and if you opt for one of the forms that don't have a corporate structure (isn't a legal person and can't do contracts, but can own money & get tax benefits) it's not entirely impossible proposition.
12:24:55 <fizzie> The biggest blockers are that I would probably need 1-2 other UK people as co-trustees (and possibly meet them physically once a year, that wasn't entirely clear), and the definition of "charitable purposes", while *probably* covering the wiki, might be a little hard to extend to other adjacent things, like #esoteric IRC bots.
12:25:27 <Vorpal> fizzie: does the server run something other than the wiki?
12:25:27 <shachaf> You know you want to rake in the big esobucks
12:25:39 <Vorpal> the irc bots run elsewhere don't they?
12:25:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: HackEgo runs on it as well.
12:25:49 <shachaf> They run at the same place.
12:25:54 <shachaf> HackEgo even gives wiki edit notifications
12:26:17 <fizzie> Well, that's done over UDP, they don't *need* to run on the same system.
12:26:47 <fizzie> Look, don't ask me, that's how MediaWiki does it.
12:27:08 <shachaf> UK charities aren't eligible for US tax deduction anyway
12:27:40 <fizzie> shachaf: Probably not. But they're eligible for UK Gift Aid for any UK donations.
12:27:48 <Vorpal> fizzie: anyway, all you would need is something able to run a couple of docker images right? mysql, nginx and hackego
12:28:05 <Vorpal> shachaf: so some other container solution then
12:28:37 <Vorpal> shachaf: anyway what do you have against containers in general or docker specifically?
12:28:42 <int-e> namespaces... good... containers... bad :P
12:28:53 <int-e> the argument is complexity.
12:28:58 <shachaf> Containers are fine, but Docker is not
12:29:16 <shachaf> But maybe Docker is popular enough that I should give up and use it
12:29:19 <Vorpal> shachaf: okay, I haven't used other solutions like rkt, so I can't really compare them
12:29:40 <shachaf> It's probably better if you build your Docker images with bazel or something instead of Dockerfiles.
12:29:49 <shachaf> And then you run them with Kubernetes or something.
12:30:05 <Vorpal> and what use I have made of docker have been highly specialized and unconventional at work to simulate large number of embedded systems hammering on another embedded system.
12:31:22 <Vorpal> shachaf: right, Dockerfile syntax is a bit weird.
12:31:38 <shachaf> Syntax is not really the issue.
12:32:14 <Vorpal> fizzie: anyway you might get sporadically reoccurring donations from me for the wiki. Don't expect anything monthly though.
12:32:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: The monthly costs are likely to be so small, any sort of transaction costs would probably eat into them anyway.
12:33:09 <fizzie> Near-term, I think I'll just reply to the (two) comments on the talk page on the wiki and see where that goes.
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12:33:58 <fizzie> The charity thing *is* real overkill, it just feels so tempting since (if I'm paying for any of it) the UK tax thing would be basically free money. (But it also feels like dubious tax dodging.)
12:34:10 <fizzie> Anyway, I think I really need to amble to work at this point.
12:37:28 <Vorpal> Gregor: why php5? (based on your backup paths). Isn't that ancient?
12:49:06 <Vorpal> oh apparently it isn't. there was no php6
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15:04:07 <Gregor> php5 is both ancient and new ;)
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16:52:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53414&oldid=53413 * Rdococ * (+152)
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19:22:03 <Roger9> zseri: What do you think of basicfuck?
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19:47:44 <zseri> I think basicfuck is very similar to clearBF.
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19:51:50 <wob_jonas> re Gregor telling about CaC handling the server on which the esowiki is running: ouch. that sucks.
19:52:43 <Elronnd> is there an implementation?
19:52:57 <wob_jonas> Vorpal, Gregor: when you say you have backups of everything, is that only the esowiki, or also HackEgo?
19:54:53 <Gregor> I separately have the hackego chroot backed up.
19:55:13 <wob_jonas> fizzie: of those hosting options, which ones don't have a clause where if you use more network traffic than is in your plan, then you must pay for the extra data (as opposed to them limiting your internet bandwidth to very low or zero when you reach the data limit)?
19:55:52 <wob_jonas> fizzie: because I have the impression that some cheap hosting options simply want a few of the users to trip up and accidentally go over the network quota and get their actual income from that, rather than the nominal monthly plans.
20:00:06 <\oren\> Google Translator is my favorite vocaloid
20:00:08 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiosKUO7oqo
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20:34:26 <zseri> I think CLooP should be extended to allow a default value for array elements (especially in GLooP mode, that one doesn't need to use a pforeach loop just to initialize any element, which, even in C, can be done using e.g. int array[N] = {0};)
20:46:48 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas I have a weekly HackEgo repository backup as well.
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20:53:06 <fizzie> \oren\: I was going to say it's Translate, not Translator, but apparently "Google™ Translator" is a Firefox extension you might've also meant.
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21:33:23 <\oren\> I bought a insanely powerful laptop!
21:33:53 <\oren\> https://www.sagernotebook.com/Notebook-NP9175.html
21:34:37 <\oren\> Just got the actual shipping notification
21:37:45 <fizzie> I've got one of those, except under the "Schenker" brand. (Few years old, not really used any more.)
21:38:00 <fizzie> The power brick weighs like, well, a brick.
21:41:25 <\oren\> yeah I kind of expected that
21:41:36 <\oren\> 330 W is a ton of charger
21:42:15 <\oren\> I wonder how it compares to a Tesla's charger
21:45:33 <\oren\> never mind they are in kW
21:46:25 <shachaf> My laptop came with a 130W charger but I downgraded to 87W
21:52:02 <\oren\> shachaf: yeah but can your laptop play crysis at max settings
21:52:33 <\oren\> (or kerbal space program with a giant space station and all teh cool graphics mods)
21:52:53 <shachaf> What you should do is play Factorio instead.
21:52:59 <shachaf> It's better than all your other games.
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22:12:21 <\oren\> shachaf: https://steamcommunity.com/id/orenwatson/games/?tab=all
22:13:53 <\oren\> I'm hoping that 32 gb of ram will help build larger cities in cities: skylines too
22:19:33 <\oren\> and of course I will stress test it by having an 8 by 8 dwarf fortress too
22:21:35 <shachaf> I don't see Factorio in the list?
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22:22:26 <\oren\> shachaf: is it on sale?
22:24:25 <\oren\> if a tomato is a fruit, then is tomato soup a smoothie?
22:26:13 <shachaf> It's on sale for the usual price of $20
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22:27:20 <garit> \oren\: i thought its a berry. Then tomato soup a diluted jam
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00:23:16 <fizzie> Hmm. Wonder if ffmpeg could render two different streams of subtitles on top of a video (say top and bottom). Probably.
00:24:44 <oerjan> i think it's been a while since the last one.
00:24:51 <oerjan> lots of bitcoin spam though.
00:27:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Are they telling you you could make a guaranteed $13000 in just 24 hours, or some such?
00:28:40 <fizzie> Although just now there's Rainer from Vienna, who I've allegedly met 2 months ago in a hotel and asked to tell me how to get "extra money on crypto currencies".
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00:32:13 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't remember
00:32:41 <oerjan> but obviously with bitcoin raising eightfold in a few months it's the thing to spam.
00:32:59 <HackEgo> bitcoins are coins that have been drilled through with a bit, and can be strung together in long chains. This practice dates to ancient China, and the Chinese remain experts in bitcoin manufacturing. A chain can support up to 21 million coins before breaking.
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01:41:06 <oerjan> <shachaf> Is baking not a type of cooking? <-- possibly, but not for the scandinavian cognates - "koking" means boiling
01:41:25 <oerjan> (which might have confused Vorpal)
01:42:38 * oerjan assumes speaking to americans is fairly useless at the moment
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01:44:02 <ais523> I never really understood Thanksgiving, and notably how it differs from Christmas
01:44:05 <ais523> the two seem very similar
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01:44:55 <shachaf> Thanksgiving is not quite my holiday
01:45:40 <ais523> huh, Wikipedia implies that the US Thanksgiving is the equivalent of (genetically related to, as much as holidays have genes) the british Harvest Festival
01:45:47 <ais523> and yet they're really quite different in nature
01:45:49 <oerjan> hm are they even cognates actually
01:46:16 <ais523> in the UK what basically happens is that people donate food to the school (normally tinned food), they make a big display out of it
01:46:19 <ais523> and then give it all to food banks
01:46:49 <ais523> I think its main purpose is to educate children about where food comes from
01:47:01 <ais523> which is not something that you automatically know without being told
01:47:08 <oerjan> shachaf: do american jews celebrate thanksgiving in general?
01:47:52 <oerjan> (it's not strictly a religious holiday, so i wouldn't know)
01:48:51 <pikhq> Seems as though what happened is Britain had a tradition of a large harvest, which was retained more recognizably in the US, and in the UK mutated rather heavily?
01:48:55 <pikhq> *large harvest feast
01:49:38 <ais523> pikhq: right, it was more celebrating the end of the harvest, I think
01:49:45 <ais523> you've done all the work gathering the food you need for the winter
01:49:50 <ais523> may as well celebrate by eating some of it
01:50:23 <pikhq> I think part of it, though, is just the US has a myth that connects it to our national origins.
01:50:40 <pikhq> Which naturally will tend to keep it a bit more recognizable.
01:51:16 <shachaf> ais523: I heard that buying tinned food and donating it to food banks is a very inefficient use of money
01:51:23 <shachaf> Better to give the food banks the money directly
01:51:39 <ais523> shachaf: not /very/ inefficient, but it does waste some money because they can purchas in bulk
01:51:53 <ais523> it's a very efficient use if you had the food already and just forgot to eat it, and it's getting close to expired
01:52:22 <shachaf> Well, they might also purchase different things, not just the same things in bulk
01:53:00 <ais523> I wonder if the extra cheerfullness factor from the food having been selected by children trying to be kind has any effect
01:53:32 <oerjan> oh en:cook and no:koke _are_ cognate, but both are latin borrowings.
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01:57:32 <ais523> shachaf: come to think of it, I suspect the food is involved unconditionally because that's what the festival requires
01:57:41 <ais523> and it gets donated to food banks merely to avoid having to throw it away
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02:00:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53415&oldid=53377 * Fizzie * (+1947) Reply and reorganize a bit.
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02:46:59 <oerjan> fizzie: rainer from vienna finally got around to me, it seems
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03:01:45 <fizzie> oerjan: Rainer sent me a second email just now. They must be getting desperate.
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08:50:26 <zzo38> In addition to official Un-cards of Magic: the Gathering, some people make up unofficial Un-cards. You can have cards that you rip in half as you draft them, tapping/untapping stuff other than permanents, unexplained keyword abilities, adding stuff other than mana into your mana pool, and demons in your nose.
08:52:37 <shachaf> Can you tap/untap a player?
08:54:06 <zzo38> Of course you can't tap/untap a player or the stack (or any objects in the stack). But, Un-cards can ignore this!
08:58:57 <zzo38> Holy Priests of the Future {WW} Creature - Human Cleric (1/1) ;; Faith-Healing ;; Bands with other creatures having at least as much faith as ~
09:02:09 <shachaf> You don't like mushrooms, right?
09:16:48 <zzo38> This is the one that was suggested by this IRC: Demons In Your Nose {UB} Instant ;; If there are any Demons in your nose, you may cast them. Each of those spells gains flying.
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09:29:36 <Phoeni> there apparently used to be people who knew things about Conway Game of Life here
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09:39:37 <zzo38> I know some things about, but, perhaps not much more than what the rules are.
09:40:13 <zzo38> (And I made a program that can execute it, too)
09:48:29 <shachaf> Jafet made a HashLife implementation in Mathematica in here once
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09:49:26 <Phoeni> this channel showed up in a 7 year old board thread
09:49:37 <int-e> . o O ( The do-s and don't-s of M:tG card design: Don't. )
09:49:57 <Phoeni> but if you program zzo you are half (something?) qualified (theoretically) to answer my next question
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09:50:40 <Phoeni> ahh, I have fond memories of Magic
09:50:53 <Phoeni> Magic Was a Way of Life.. or .. uh FOCUS Phoeni : )
09:51:22 <Phoeni> what's the smallest initial form that has the biggest explosion in complexity?
09:51:28 <Phoeni> could be a few answers
09:51:37 <Phoeni> the one on the top of my head is R pentamonio
09:51:48 <shachaf> Is there a standard measure for that?
09:52:24 <Phoeni> one of my awesome 5am scribbles that explodes like R penta .. and then ... oh shit it got Meta
09:52:26 <shachaf> I imagine that most reasonable meanings of complexity grow BB-style in the size of the initial pattern
09:52:29 <Phoeni> Douglas Hofstadter Likes thisd
09:52:35 <Phoeni> I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
09:53:07 <Phoeni> So among the things I don't know is "how to measure" as pointed out
09:53:15 <Phoeni> R Penta goes BALLISTIC
09:53:26 <Phoeni> but say an 8 item pattern could go "more"
09:53:30 <Phoeni> but it "starts bigger" etc
09:54:08 <int-e> http://www.conwaylife.com/w/index.php?title=Infinite_growth#Small_infinite_growth_patterns
09:54:23 <Phoeni> so zzo38 for example if you are a programmer you could just do an Add-on
09:55:27 <Phoeni> "...giving several 11-cell patterns with infinite growth"
09:55:39 <Phoeni> But just because it adds glider guns or stuff
09:55:45 <Phoeni> somehow that's not "complex"
09:56:32 <Phoeni> BUT borrowing from that article I'll grab a vocab word
09:57:02 <Phoeni> something like R Penta and then SOMEWHERE in the life cycle add 1 pixel in the most compact way to keep it going
09:57:12 <Phoeni> like "feeding" the life
09:57:35 <Phoeni> so the end result "keeps wandering all over doing stuff"
09:58:05 <Phoeni> So THAT is my second level question
09:58:09 <Phoeni> the first half was warmup
10:05:31 <Vorpal> <oerjan> <shachaf> Is baking not a type of cooking? <-- possibly, but not for the scandinavian cognates - "koking" means boiling
10:05:31 <Vorpal> <oerjan> (which might have confused Vorpal)
10:06:10 <Vorpal> shachaf: I'm from Sweden yes
10:06:36 <shachaf> But you live in -- the UK?
10:07:07 <shachaf> I thought maybe you were in the US.
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10:46:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: By the way, since we've tended to share these -- it's not exactly a panorama, but I was out taking pictures of a Light Thing the other night: https://zem.fi/tmp/beamrules.jpg
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12:32:54 <Vorpal> fizzie: A "light thing"?
12:33:01 <Vorpal> it is quite pretty yes
12:33:11 <Vorpal> fizzie: lasers into fog?
12:33:56 <Vorpal> fizzie: by the way, the only reason I have been on at all this week is that I have been home with a severe cold, so I had nothing better to do
12:34:51 <Vorpal> with regards to "not paying attention to internet stuff" I mentioned yesterday
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13:03:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think those were just regular lights into fog. But there were some lasers as well: https://zem.fi/tmp/lasers.jpg
13:03:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: And just lights in general: https://zem.fi/tmp/gates.jpg
13:03:48 <Vorpal> fizzie: you live in a cool place!
13:05:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: My wife says it makes no sense London has all these things and Finland/Helsinki has none, even though the latter would have ample supplies of darkness and woodland.
13:08:27 <fizzie> There's at least three recurring yearly light shows somewhat like this (the photos are from Syon Park's Enchanted Woodland, but there's also the Magical Lantern Festival at Chiswick House and Christmas at Kew in Kew Gardens) plus some more conventional "light art" thingies (Winter Lights Festival at Canary Wharf, the Lumiere festival just generally around London).
13:11:53 <fizzie> I flickr'd some photos of the Canary Wharf one last year, https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/albums/72157676045132054
13:12:53 <fizzie> (Oh, and apparently the Magic Lantern Festival as well.)
13:15:02 <Vorpal> fizzie: looks cool, especially the ones with horizontal ribbons between the trees
13:15:51 <fizzie> I think that was just physical ribbons coated with something that glows under UV light, and then some UV lamps pointed at them on the ground.
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13:25:38 <zseri> I think I should try to execute some parts of the XTW interpreter parallel.
13:37:48 <zseri> especially in the VM
13:39:04 <b_jonas> `ping the VM didn't magically come into life, right?
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13:41:02 <fizzie> b_jonas: Was it not-alive then?
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13:43:23 <b_jonas> it was non-alive a few days ago
13:44:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: I wonder, instead of random people sending money to you, does any of the virtual machine providers support the option where random people can pay money directly to the hosting provider over the internet and that money appears on that virtual machine's account if they add the rihgt incantation?
13:44:53 <fizzie> Oh, that. Yeah, it's been back for quite a while now. I don't think it was down for more than four days or so.
13:45:47 <b_jonas> um... I was busy then, or something
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13:46:36 <fizzie> I don't know if "non-owner payments" are a thing with any provider. Could be.
13:46:47 <fizzie> The one I've been looking for accepts bitcoins, FWIW.
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15:16:49 <Gregor> Oh boy, Cloud at Cost is having a Black Friday sale ;)
15:20:21 <fizzie> Quick, let's buy more of them.
15:30:00 <fizzie> Here's a rather random question, but I'm having some trouble Googli.. I mean, searching Google for it. Does anyone happen to know if there exists a cheap device for plugging a POTS landline handset to a computer in a full-duplex way?
15:30:04 <fizzie> All I can find are (a) record-only boxes that slot between the phone base and the mic/speaker handset, (b) FXO devices that make a computer be able to interact with a POTS system, and (c) a few very Skype-specific USB devices intended for doing Skype calls from an old landline phone.
15:30:12 <fizzie> I just basically want to make an old phone an audio I/O device. (Or possibly just the handset part, but it'd be more elegant to use the entire phone.)
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15:36:40 <zzo38> Do you know how to make such a device?
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15:54:23 <fizzie> Not really. I used to have a voice-capable ISA modem card that might've been able to do it, but that's back in Finland anyway.
15:54:26 <fizzie> I've found a few instructions about the handset part (though mostly just about recording), and that might be easier, since AIUI it's really just a specific kind of microphone and speaker. The phone system itself is probably a little more involved.
15:54:31 <fizzie> I'm not particularly good at electronics.
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17:02:42 <int-e> Heh, CaC is spamming me.
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18:40:50 <fizzie> Some closure: looks like the thing I was talking about is called a "FXS adapter" in telephony land, and there are no cheap ones, except for build-your-own projects. The cheapest alternative seems to be some sort of standalone VOIP box, which can be had in the £15-20 price range used.
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19:51:46 <Phoeni> I'll repeat since I posted my question when no one was up
19:51:52 <Phoeni> any experts on Conway's Game of Life here?
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21:17:11 <garit> Phoeni: i watched two and half YouTube videos about it, so im an expert. Feel free to ask your question =)
21:18:18 <Phoeni> How far did your videos take you?
21:18:33 <Phoeni> "and a HAALF!" (Eddie Murphy) : )
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21:19:21 <Phoeni> So you make dots, and they either are lonely and die off, or crowded, and the middle one die of
21:19:35 <Phoeni> and most really early positions in the "crowded" stage die off in stages
21:22:25 <zzo38> The cells are formed into patterns.
21:24:37 <Phoeni> but patterns from a set of rules that you re calculate turn after turn
21:25:12 <Phoeni> zzo38 you were here earlier
21:25:19 <Phoeni> do you still have your program?
21:26:33 <Phoeni> I just checked, and the 5 dot config called R pentamonio dies off in about 1100 turns
21:27:09 <Phoeni> so it can't be that hard to run it 3200 times adding one pixel at a time a bunch of choices
21:27:28 <b_jonas> Phoeni: it doesn't die off. it emits multiple gliders.
21:27:39 <b_jonas> or was that another pattern?
21:27:43 <Phoeni> well I am skipping the gliders
21:27:57 <Phoeni> I saw those, but one sec lemme look at something again
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21:29:28 <Phoeni> ot taking the time to count exactly, it produces 4-5 gliders so they "end off into space" but in the main colony it stabilizes
21:29:39 <Phoeni> that's what I am referrring to
21:30:08 <Phoeni> but before that it gets into all these fantastic patterns
21:30:41 <Phoeni> so I am curious if you add 1 pixel somewhere in the run if you can keep it going wild without locking down
21:31:09 <Phoeni> probably not just 1, so there is some sets of minimum numbers of pixels per overall complexity growth
21:31:29 <Phoeni> but since the original is FIVE and it explodes into 1100 cycles
21:31:36 <Phoeni> it can't be that many new pixels
21:31:45 <garit> So whats your question
21:32:07 <garit> Strange stuff is happening and there is no way to quickly predict it (usually)
21:32:14 <Phoeni> so I am curious if you add 1 pixel somewhere in the run if you can keep it going wild without locking down
21:32:31 <Phoeni> right, so just a brute force
21:33:01 <Phoeni> because a computer can do it in an organized fashion
21:33:13 <garit> you can greatly optimize the execution though
21:33:21 <Phoeni> and 1100 steps is small, this slow web version was done in ten seconds
21:33:29 <garit> by press calculating whole patterns, excluding empty areas, etc
21:33:54 <garit> computer can calculate something like 1 billion cell-steps per second
21:33:56 <Phoeni> so I am just curious how to find out
21:34:37 <Phoeni> in this case "a billion cell steps' but with the "wonders of multi plex sims" it's 110 steps times (guess) 2000 locations for the pixel
21:34:39 <garit> there are no way to solve it algorithmically
21:35:05 <garit> game of life is Turing complete, you can encode any program in it
21:35:22 <garit> so ny making quick prediction about it, you could solve any possible problem faster
21:35:27 <Phoeni> I'd just like to see it programmed out
21:36:13 <Phoeni> I came here because the room title was obscure programming stuff and specifically a board post said a few people knew some stuff about it and zzo38 earlier said he'd already made one
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21:38:19 <Phoeni> it sounded like an easy test case for a programmer to crank out
21:39:06 <garit2> Solving quick game of life simulation = solving all possible programs
21:39:38 <garit2> its literally the same, as asking to solve how to simulate any given program faster than it takes usually
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21:41:00 <Phoeni> you're right but answering a diff question than I had
21:41:03 <zzo38> I do still have the program of course
21:41:09 <Phoeni> I was looking for one quick piece of data
21:41:22 <Phoeni> heh "of course" - heh things happen
21:41:28 <Phoeni> programs get lost to dead hard drives : )
21:42:13 <Phoeni> but so zzo38 in concept *I think* all you'd have to do is put a loop and add 1 pixel to the run of the center population ignoring the gliders once they're out of range
21:42:26 <Phoeni> and see which one pixel adds the most to the whole colony
21:43:03 <Phoeni> or because of the crowding rule deleting one pizel
21:43:53 <Phoeni> I just had the idea to add some food : )
21:44:44 <Phoeni> I have Wolfram's New Kind of Science but last I looked it over I didn't see the Food idea
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22:16:05 <shachaf> Wasn't that a book by Nesbit?
22:16:13 <shachaf> Oh, no, I'm mixing up two books by Nesbit.
22:17:55 <quintopia> if you add an "x", it's the opening line of daft punk's "get lucky" and the name of an upcoming anthology from gilded dragonfly books
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22:25:44 <Phoeni> y'all are partly right
22:25:53 <Phoeni> this is a new channel for me to ne in
22:26:12 <Phoeni> Phoenix is right, just like you think, and more accurately, the male one from the Egyptian lineage
22:26:32 <Phoeni> the missing X is some mostly forgotten wordplay little thing I was pondering one year
22:26:46 <Phoeni> and IRC only lets you sorta have 1 name per network
22:28:50 <zzo38> You can use NS GROUP to add multiple names to your account if you want to do, although only one name is in use at once.
22:29:57 <Phoeni> ooh that's new to me, what's that?
22:30:20 <Phoeni> Fortunately I don't have all that many, but userenames are how the net runs and it's irritating
22:30:28 <zzo38> An account is not required, but it is possible to do. Issue the command "NS HELP" to the IRC server for a description.
22:30:51 <Phoeni> is that freenode only or across most of the big networks?
22:31:33 <zzo38> Not all IRC networks implement it, but some do. (Which subcommands are implemented under NS also can differ by network)
22:32:17 <Phoeni> so then do I Identify back and forth?
22:32:51 <Phoeni> so yes I came across Nickserv isn't on all the networks, but I'll deal with that later
22:33:00 <Phoeni> just doing basics today : )
22:34:01 <zzo38> If you are registered, then you can use the PASS or NS IDENTIFY command to authenticate so that you can be logged in.
22:34:15 <Phoeni> I am registered for Phoeni
22:34:25 <Phoeni> but how do you switch names?
22:34:35 <zzo38> Issue the NICK command to switch names.
22:34:57 <Phoeni> I might be confusing myself
22:35:38 <Phoeni> A. So if I am in teo IRC channels at the same time, I can't have two nicks going at once, unless that's what Group does
22:35:57 <zzo38> You can have only one name per connection.
22:36:21 <zzo38> You need two connections if you want to use two names at once.
22:36:29 <Phoeni> B, THEN, I think Twitch gets grouchy and only wants one twitch name per (something)
22:36:53 <Phoeni> so my gaming twitch gets smashed into my chess twitch name
22:37:20 <Phoeni> sure I've done landline and mobile before
22:37:37 <Phoeni> Does that work for Twitch too
22:37:50 <Phoeni> So at home I might have to do AdiIRC and Kiwi or something
22:38:27 <zzo38> I don't mean landline and mobile; I mean just connecting twice to the IRC server, with the same IRC client for both connections if it supports multiple connections to the same server.
22:39:26 <zzo38> (Different IRC clients work differently, and you may need to look at the documentation for the IRC client you are using.)
22:41:22 <Phoeni> hm that's new to me too, also something to think about
22:41:32 <Phoeni> things to do when not studying
22:53:02 <zseri> I use hexchat here, and I think it supports two connections to the same server but I'm not sure.
22:53:45 <Phoeni> I did a survey of clients about 3 years ago and AdiIRc becae my "winner"
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22:54:18 <Phoeni> and I think I glanced at hexchat but it just didn't make my list for now lost reasons to do with intuition
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23:19:19 <Roger9> <lambdabot> You don't have any massages
23:21:24 <boily> dosthelloswork, Relloger9, zsellori. lambdabot doesn't massage hth
23:23:26 <zseri> I parallelized some namespace copy work in the XTW interpreter.
23:49:08 <zzo38> Have you looked at my new esolang yet?
23:54:23 <zzo38> It is titled "Crement" (ais523 gave it this name, because I didn't have a name for it at first)
23:59:21 <zseri> It would be interesting to have a instruction which allows to copy a previous instruction (given by address field) after the last command
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00:00:28 <zzo38> O, so that you can extend the length of the program, do you mean?
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00:03:15 <zseri> I would name it 'EXTEND'; It could be used in a loop (using JUMP) to conditionally extend the program an then jump to that place
00:06:01 <zseri> Or a Instruction 'I' which inserts copies of commands (like extend) but immediately before or after itself.
00:06:10 <zzo38> Maybe this can be a variant "Extensible Crement", perhaps.
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00:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck²]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53416&oldid=53381 * TedDidNothingWrong * (+0)
00:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extensible Crement]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53417 * Zseri * (+1055) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]][[Category:2017]][[Category:Self-modifying]] Extensible Crement is an programming language based upon [[Crement]], invented by [[User:Zseri]]. Extensib..."
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00:18:37 <zseri> Loop matching is now even more difficult
00:20:21 <zseri> oh, no, easier. I exchanged before and after while thinking
00:21:35 <zseri> literally ''easier'' (maaping '[' -> 'Brainfuck²' ; ']' -> 'ZZZ')
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00:39:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ptbell: not found
00:39:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ptlist: not found
00:39:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pt: not found
00:39:55 <boily> shachaf: helloochaf. new PT hth
00:41:21 <fizzie> Nice intel-microcode changelog.
00:41:25 <fizzie> "Likely fix nightmare-level Skylake erratum SKL150. Fortunately, either this erratum is very-low-hitting, or gcc/clang/icc/msvc won't usually issue the affected opcode pattern and it ends up being rare.
00:41:29 <fizzie> SKL150 - Short loops using both the AH/BH/CH/DH registers and the corresponding wide register *may* result in unpredictable system behavior. Requires both logical processors of the same core (i.e. sibling hyperthreads) to be active to trigger, as well as a 'complex set of micro-architectural conditions'"
00:42:45 <boily> Primitive Technology hth
00:44:44 <ais523> fizzie: I was following that a while ago
00:45:02 <ais523> the actual effects of the problem are really nasty, but luckily the offending code sequence isn't omitted by most compilers
00:45:12 <ais523> so it tended to only hurt OCaml programs (whose compiler can omit it)
00:47:59 <fizzie> Was reading this because had to reboot, and happened to see an early boot message flash by saying "[Firmware Bug]: TSC_DEADLINE disabled due to Errata; please update microcode to version: 0x22 (or later)".
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00:52:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extensible Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53418&oldid=53417 * Zseri * (+417) +I/O
00:56:03 <zseri> I specified output for Extensible Crement (uses address -1 and doesn't jump).
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00:56:57 <oerjan> is the obvious shortened form intentional tdnhodi
00:58:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extensible Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53419&oldid=53418 * Zseri * (+129)
01:05:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extensible Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53420&oldid=53419 * Zseri * (+45) use different instructions in the example to demonstrate the usage
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01:12:22 <ais523> oerjan: well the name is based on the common root of increment and decrement
01:12:34 <ais523> so I guess if you have a value that you can move up, down, or out, it could work?
01:12:38 <oerjan> somehow the shops in norway advertise black friday sales despite us having no thanksgiving.
01:13:22 <ais523> in the UK shops are trying to make black friday relevant
01:13:30 <ais523> but the sales aren't really big enough to encourage people to visit
01:13:48 <ais523> the closest British equivalent to black friday is the Boxing day sales
01:14:03 <ais523> but they aren't a huge big single-day thing, they tend to last the whole of the rest of december and much of January too
01:14:07 <ais523> so you don't get stampedes or the like
01:15:30 <oerjan> hm in norway the days right after christmas are customarily for switching gifts you don't want, which many shops allow
01:16:15 <oerjan> while actual sales start in the new year
01:16:24 <ais523> that's pretty interesting, actually; I guess that's technically legal here too but I haven't heard of it being widely done
01:16:29 <ais523> (legal in that most shops allow it)
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01:19:16 <oerjan> yeah it's not a legal right unless the item is actually broken
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01:42:46 <boily> I AM PROPERLY PORTHELLOED. LET THE PROTOCOL BEGIN.
01:43:10 * boily taps a bunch of islands
01:44:54 <boily> blue mana best mana.
01:47:25 <boily> we started playing tiny leaders for fun. there are some deeply borken cards in there...
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02:12:17 <oerjan> hm golly has python scripting, surely that can help answer phoeni's "change a single pixel" question
02:13:22 <hppavilion[1]> WTF: http://www.wikisky.org/?ra=23.978329260803264&de=2.09181050236276&zoom=3&show_grid=1&show_constellation_lines=1&show_constellation_boundaries=1&show_const_names=0&show_galaxies=1&show_box=1&box_ra=22.494041&box_de=-20.83711&box_width=54.613248&box_height=54.613248&box_var_size=1&img_source=IMG_all
02:13:49 <shachaf> In HashLife, if you have some huge pattern, you might be able to advance it by 2^n generations relatively efficiently
02:13:57 <shachaf> But is there a way to advance it by one generation efficiently?
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02:46:58 <shachaf> You don't control n, it's a function of the board size
02:49:25 <deltab> I don't know much about HashLife, but wouldn't the intermediate states also have been computed and hashed?
02:50:01 <deltab> I guess I don't know enough about it to make sense
02:51:09 <shachaf> "hash" is a slightly silly name
02:51:25 <shachaf> I guess it comes from "hash consing" or something
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10:23:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extensible Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53421&oldid=53420 * Zseri * (+0) fix example
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12:57:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53422&oldid=53376 * Zseri * (+39) +Crement
12:57:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extensible Crement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53423&oldid=53421 * Zseri * (-8) fix 2nd line
13:15:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extensible Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53424&oldid=53423 * Zseri * (+14) fix example
13:24:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extensible Crement]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53425&oldid=53424 * Zseri * (+0) s/E/X/
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16:13:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53426&oldid=53414 * Rdococ * (+166) Removed assignment, since it can be replicated in two instructions.
16:13:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53427&oldid=53426 * Rdococ * (+0) /* Instructions */
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16:19:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53428&oldid=53427 * Rdococ * (+6)
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17:32:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53429&oldid=53422 * Rdococ * (+16) /* B */ Basicfuck
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17:39:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53430&oldid=53428 * Rdococ * (-12) /* Headers */
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18:05:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53431&oldid=53430 * Rdococ * (+432) Replaced 'allocate' instruction with '#allocate' directive.
18:10:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53432&oldid=53431 * Rdococ * (-398) Undo revision 53431 by [[Special:Contributions/Rdococ|Rdococ]] ([[User talk:Rdococ|talk]])
18:28:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53433&oldid=53432 * Rdococ * (+399) Actually, I prefer the '#allocate' directives.
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18:33:38 <int-e> `` echo bin/*elcome
18:33:41 <HackEgo> bin/autowelcome bin/elcome bin/relcome bin/rwelcome bin/velcome bin/welcome bin/welcome bin/Welcome
18:33:52 <HackEgo> omebody: elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: <ttp://solangs.rg/>. (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n Fnet r ALnet.)
18:37:37 <HackEgo> : elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: <ttp://solangs.rg/>. (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n Fnet r ALnet.)
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18:56:42 <Roger9> Should basicfuck have an 'if' conditional?
18:58:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53434&oldid=53433 * Rdococ * (+136) Added an 'if' conditional.
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22:19:44 <fungot> boily: replace the cygwin line by:
22:19:51 <fungot> boily: javac is a fantastic exercise book in that sense scheme is continual too.
22:20:01 <boily> fungot: no, javac is not fantastic.
22:20:02 <fungot> boily: sarahbot is very intelligent. :o http://www.deviantart.com/ deviation/ fnord
22:20:20 <boily> fungot: deviantart and sarahbot? you perv.
22:20:21 <fungot> boily: its not always true
22:20:26 <boily> fungot: yes you are.
22:21:55 <Roger9> boily: Do you think basicfuck should have an 'if' conditional?
22:30:46 <fizzie> fungot: Do you think it should have one?
22:30:46 <fungot> fizzie: the man page. that was only technical description of pasha. :)
22:34:01 <Roger9> The concept of basicfuck is to remove most temporary variables used in simple calculations, while still being generally weird and easy to compile to brainfuck.
22:34:14 <Roger9> Under those grounds, I think it should have one.
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22:35:16 <Roger9> Similarly with the optional 'inversion' modifier I'm adding to the 'if' and 'while' instructions to invert their normal behavior (while !(X) {code} will only run code while X *is* zero(
22:35:19 <fizzie> Roger9: By the way, back in 2004 one of the channel regulars wrote something a little like that, except maybe a little more lower-level.
22:35:29 <Roger9> fizzie: Yes, I think I was linked to that.
22:36:07 <Roger9> fizzie: However, there are a billion brainfuck derivatives, and many are even closer to brainfuck than my basicfuck would be to that language, so I think it's fine.
22:36:25 <fizzie> Think it was called BFASM. Looks like a lot of references to it in the webs have died since then.
22:37:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53435&oldid=53434 * Rdococ * (+1033)
22:40:19 <Roger9> I also think that the concept of the 'basicfuck directive' line at the beginning of each basicfuck file could be used in a brainfuck interpreter so that more brainfuck programs can be compatible with it.
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22:41:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53436&oldid=53435 * Rdococ * (-5) Minor terminology change.
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23:17:45 <boily> Roger9: Relloger. if it has to be, then maybe. else, it must not.
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00:26:39 <oerjan> oh no, arjanb, my old nemesis
00:27:37 <oerjan> (e fits my log self search pattern)
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00:30:31 <quintopia> boily appears to have disapparated
00:32:48 -!- adu has joined.
00:48:27 <boily> not disapparated, just cooking and eating.
01:01:33 <oerjan> quintopia: it's procrastination all the way down hth
01:06:57 <Roger9> Hellørjan, hoily, hellopia, and helloony.
01:09:13 <Roger9> btw, you guys know that I'm rdococ, right?
01:09:20 <Roger9> I know it's an unfortunate fact, but...
01:09:32 * boily mapoles Roger9 with joy and mirth
01:09:47 <Roger9> I honestly don't think I'm liked that much here.
01:12:53 <oerjan> Roger9: i knew because i checked whois.
01:13:10 <oerjan> and later your wiki edits made it rather obvious
01:13:29 <boily> Roger9: you are welcome. also, I like mapoling you ^^
01:18:19 <oerjan> Roger9: unless i'm confusing you with someone else i recall you complaining a lot about how disliked you were, which ironically was the only thing which really annoyed me.
01:28:58 <HackEgo> 1/2:ananas//ananas is the real pineapple. \ thé//Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth. \ örjan//Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ vorpal//Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones. \ mornington crescent//Sorry, you
01:29:01 <HackEgo> 2/2: cannot read this wisdom until you've legally played Westminster.
01:29:22 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
01:29:37 <boily> Move pineapples for great justice!
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02:00:04 <zzo38> In this GURPS game we got dirty because the fire pit (fortunately with no fire) that we were hiding in was dirty. Later when getting clean, I decided to not clean the gold key we stole, for two reasons that might be useful in future.
02:03:25 <garit> I always wanted to play dnd or gurps. But because of my personality game doesn't last long =(
02:03:55 <zzo38> OK, can you elaborate how it won't last long due to personality then?
02:04:29 <garit> I go into too much details and other think that game is boring now
02:05:02 <zzo38> Play with the others who like that then, instead of who hate it.
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02:18:23 <moony> This. I just. This. https://youtu.be/nfdEdE96En0
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02:18:41 <moony> brb buying a hamburger
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02:21:08 <boily> moony: what kind? meat? cheese? sauces? vegetable agreements?
02:21:40 <moony> boily, electronic chair burger.
02:23:44 <boily> that is a hamburger fit for fungots. are you human?
02:23:44 <fungot> boily: fnord is scientific ( exponential) notation... would fnord also be a dominant to fnord people in taiwan are from china originally
02:24:14 <moony> boily, yes, i am a moony.
02:24:55 * oerjan ate a bacon burger today hth hth
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02:32:05 * oerjan thinks "dimension" sounds weird with a short i
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03:01:16 <zzo38> (One thing is if someone else look at our stuff, they will not find the gold key because now it is black instead of gold. Other thing is if now there are a lot of gold keys, it is easier to tell apart this one because it is dirty. And if it is mixed with dirty keys, we can clean them to find the gold one.)
03:03:07 <\oren\> lol steam's privacy system has holes
03:04:37 <quintopia> boily: when dimension is abbreviated as dim, do you pronounce it like dime?
03:05:45 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/a/NnKGd
03:06:46 <\oren\> even if someone has their privacy settings set to not show their game inventory, you can still tell on a store page, whther they have that game
03:09:32 <boily> it's a dim dimension, obviously.
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03:17:47 <\oren\> so I can tell what games shachaf owns by scrolling thru the games and looking for his icon
03:17:56 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/7aBXiGT
03:19:50 <shachaf> \oren\: delete that screenshot twh
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03:22:31 <oerjan> quintopia: um probably.
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03:23:27 <\oren\> shachaf: btw the correct meme for that is "delet tis"
03:24:04 <shachaf> What's the correct moomin?
03:24:12 <oerjan> darn i was too late to steal personal incriminating information about shachaf
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03:24:47 <\oren\> oerjan: it was jsut that he plays stardew valley
03:25:01 <oerjan> OKAY *scribbles in notebook*
03:27:25 <\oren\> which I'm fairly certain is some kind of harvest moon ripoff anyway
03:27:52 <\oren\> so, not even an embarrasing game to own
03:28:40 <\oren\> hmmm.... I wonder if they know this security hole exists
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03:39:20 <zzo38> My GURPS character now has the power to light himself on fire as a free action, for up to ten seconds. This power can be used six times (after which it is permanently gone).
03:41:44 <zzo38> This was inadvertent; I saw a goat that was on fire, and I used my breath attack to cause them to sleep, and they did fall asleep but that also extinguished the fire, so I went to eat their blood, and when I was finish I found that I had this power, somehow.
03:42:21 <zzo38> Since my character is carrying many thing that can be damaged by the fire (including paper), therefore it would have to be put aside before using this power if not want it to be damaged.
04:16:30 <doesthiswork> assuming they're flammable you will be undressed after the self immoliation
04:17:27 <\oren\> putting the red-hot into red hot stripper
04:17:54 <zzo38> Yes, if you want to ruin the clothing.
04:18:35 <shachaf> \oren\: Did you play Factorio yet?
04:19:14 <shachaf> You can get the demo for free if you like
04:19:18 <shachaf> It gives you a general idea of the jam
04:21:45 <\oren\> ok I'm downloading it... will take 40 minutes
04:21:59 <shachaf> You're still using dial-up in Canada?
04:23:49 <zzo38> My character wear cloth armour and a strapped shield, and is also carrying a book and writing equipment, and some money, and a lantern (for use in dark caves; he can see outside at night without it).
04:24:03 <zzo38> O, and also a gold key.
04:24:31 <\oren\> I keep steam downloading throttled by half or it hogs all the abndowidth and my ssh connections time out
04:25:23 <\oren\> I really need to loook into this "fiber" thing they keep sending us spam about
04:25:57 <shachaf> Are they trying to sell you fiber bundles?
04:26:23 <\oren\> yeah fiber internet and cable
04:28:00 <zzo38> Do you know how much flammable some of these things are? I know the paper will be flammable but others I don't know?
04:29:10 <\oren\> zzo38: well i assume cloth armour is natural fibres...
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04:33:23 <zzo38> I don't know much about armour.
04:34:05 <zzo38> The GURPS book says it takes three seconds to add or remove one piece of armour, but I do not know if that is reasonable or not.
04:34:37 <zzo38> If you have any armour then you can try and you can see how long it takes.
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04:36:29 <doesthiswork> thats about how long it takes me to remove my shirt
04:37:23 <shachaf> `learn A kittegory is just a small category.
04:37:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'kittegory': A kittegory is just a small category.
04:37:53 <HackEgo> A preorder is just a small thin category.
04:39:35 * oerjan lightly swats shachaf with a fiber bundle -----###
04:40:54 <shachaf> also your fiber bundle looks an awful lot like your usual swatter
04:41:28 <oerjan> sure, it's made of fibers
04:41:45 <doesthiswork> have you ever seen fiber optic concrete? its cool stuff
04:42:01 <oerjan> . o O ( only in the abstract )
04:42:45 <\oren\> I can get 50 MB/s for 100 $ a month
04:45:42 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "mb". \ 50 m^2 s^-3 kg A^-2 (electric_resistance) mb (undefined symbol)
04:46:51 <oerjan> `learn Nnections are measured in millibits per siemens.
04:46:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'nnection': Nnections are measured in millibits per siemens.
04:47:26 <shachaf> But connections are measured in megabits per second
04:48:03 <shachaf> So why aren't nnections measured in millibytes per siemens?
04:48:11 <HackEgo> 1 m^2 s^-3 kg A^-2 (electric_resistance)
04:48:27 <oerjan> `slwd nnection//s,bit,byte,
04:48:29 <HackEgo> nnection//Nnections are measured in millibytes per siemens.
04:49:39 <\oren\> There are cheaper plans but obviously I would never even consider anything with a usage cap
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06:04:16 <\oren\> shachaf: I got killed by beetle wolf things
06:04:56 <\oren\> my machine gun ran out of bullets
06:06:31 <oerjan> . o O ( these wolves look buggy )
06:19:35 <shachaf> \oren\: Should've defended better.
06:19:41 <shachaf> Defense isn't really a huge part of the game
06:19:57 <shachaf> The aliens aren't very smart
06:20:07 <shachaf> They just get mad at you for polluting their planet
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07:25:58 <zzo38> Is there a better way to draw a bezier curve other than by solving the cubic for X and Y?
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07:57:36 <oerjan> . o O ( a bezier way )
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08:08:04 <zzo38> Whatever I did it does not even work quite right, whether because I made a mistake in the function to solve a cubic, or due to some other problem
08:34:50 <int-e> I thought people used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Casteljau%27s_algorithm for drawing Bezier curves
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08:37:31 <int-e> or rather the Bezier curve subdivision that it entails
08:39:46 <int-e> e.g. http://antigrain.com/research/adaptive_bezier/
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12:31:17 <fizzie> Back when I was doing my non-military military service alternative and living in a student flat in Vantaa, I had a part-of-the-rent Internet service, and it entirely broke (disconnected) all SSH connections whenever I tried to download anything at "full speed".
12:31:23 <fizzie> Eventually I had to set up some local traffic shaping with a bandwidth limit of 90% or so of the nominal speed, after which it was bearable.
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12:44:04 <shachaf> I was saying the other day that bandwidth should be measured in time/data instead of data/time
12:44:15 <fizzie> Mochaf. Yes, I think I remember that.
12:44:26 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Nov 26 04:44:23 2017
12:44:37 <shachaf> Unfortunately I've yet to sleepchaf
12:47:09 <fizzie> These days I have a nominally 113 s/GiB internet connection.
12:48:35 <shachaf> That's a long time, 113 seconds
12:49:21 <fizzie> A gigabyte is a not-insignificant amount of data as well, if not quite "alot".
12:50:01 <shachaf> This reminds me of a middle school problem I saw in an article.
12:50:52 <shachaf> "Tom and Dick working together can do a job in 2 hours. Tom and Harry can do the job in 4 hours. Dick and Harry can do the job in 4 hours. How long would it take Tom, Dick, and Harry to do the job?"
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13:22:54 <fizzie> shachaf: Is the answer 2 hours, 4 hours, or a punchline about social organization?
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14:18:39 <Roger9> 'Ellokin, xaphellostel.
14:19:41 <boily> Relloger9. xaphellostel???
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15:14:22 <Roger9> I'm working on a concept for an esolang in which the only instruction is a Fredkin gate.
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15:51:45 <Vorpal> <shachaf> I was saying the other day that bandwidth should be measured in time/data instead of data/time <-- huh, why?
15:52:14 <Vorpal> actually, you do measure water flow in m^3 / s don't you? So I guess that makes sense
15:52:39 <Vorpal> wait, it makes less sense
15:52:59 <Vorpal> no I don't see why it should be time/data
15:53:23 <Cale> It doesn't actually matter, but usually we like derivatives with respect to time.
15:54:03 <Vorpal> obviously both could work yes, but I'm wondering why shachaf wants the opposite of that
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16:17:30 <boily> Roger9: what is a Fredkin gate?
16:18:10 <boily> Vorpal: Vellorpal. maybe for downloads and uploads? “it takes me 5 s/MB to upload a picture to Dropbox” or something.
16:18:36 <boily> Phantom_Helloover. so physics engine to interpret programs?
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16:19:21 <boily> beuh... not even a sound system for ball collisions? simulated blue chalk?
16:19:42 <Roger9> boily: The Fredkin gate takes three inputs (A, B, and C). If A is true, then the gate swaps B with C (so it outputs (A, C, B)). Otherwise, it functions as an identity gate.
16:19:48 <int-e> fungot: what does boily mean?
16:19:48 <fungot> int-e: are all surreal numbers symmetric games? you find a local minimum every day around 0600. ( i don't like
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16:20:07 <int-e> thanks, it all makes sense now.
16:20:13 <Roger9> In other words, the gate preserves the number of true values and false values in the result.
16:21:22 <boily> int-e: if it is a billiard ball gate, I expect billiard balls hth
16:22:05 <boily> reversible computing sounds nice, but are there applications?
16:23:08 <int-e> quantum computing has that restrictions - you have all these unitary operators working on your state, which happen to be invertible
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16:24:03 <Roger9> I'm trying to think of a way to make this esolang concept Turing-complete without preventing it from being reversible.
16:24:04 <int-e> but there's other applications - energy effficiency, avoidance of side channels
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16:27:50 <int-e> (though for the latter applications you mostly want the property that the sum of the outputs is equal to the sum of inputs; for example, an andor gate (two outputs) would be fine despite not being reversible)
16:30:09 * boily reads more about quantum things
16:32:49 <int-e> . o O ( There should be a version of counterstrike that says "capitalists win" whenever a shot is fired. )
16:34:33 <boily> https://www.xkcd.com/873/
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18:21:49 <zzo38> Wikipedia says "Analytical methods where a Bezier is intersected with each scan line involve finding roots of cubic polynomials and dealing with multiple roots, so they are not often used in practice." Well, I didn't see that before so I did not know that, and it is the method I was trying to use. I will look now at De Casteljau's algorithm and see what that says.
19:04:08 <zzo38> The reason my method of finding the root didn't work was a mistake that now I fixed, so now it does work.
19:11:17 <Roger9> On the topic of the Fredkin gate, you could encode every boolean value as a pair of values - (1, 0) for true and (0, 1) for false - which would mean that you can invert a value without changing the number of 0s or 1s (which a Fredkin gate cannot do), among other things.
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20:22:29 <quintopia> how do you do "and" with a fredkin gate?
20:23:49 <quintopia> i guess you would take the first part of the first input as "a" and the swapped other input as "b, c"
20:27:27 <int-e> you have an ifthenelse in the last component: (a,b,c) -> if a then (a,c,b) else (a,b,c). so if you have constants, you can use if a then b else 0 forlogical and.
20:28:47 <quintopia> i was referring specifically to the context with (1,0)=true and (0,1)=false
20:38:10 <int-e> Well what you have a negated xor, I think
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21:27:50 <shachaf> fizzie: The answer is none of those, it's a real problem.
21:28:01 <shachaf> fizzie: Assuming work behaves linearly and so on.
21:28:17 <shachaf> Vorpal: I also think time/distance is a better unit (in some contexts) than distance over time.
21:28:47 <shachaf> Vorpal: Just like people use litre/100km to measure fuel consumption, instead of km/litre
21:29:14 <shachaf> Vorpal: You pay time, and you get distance in return, so time/distance is the right unit for most calculations.
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21:59:55 <fizzie> shachaf: I thought 2 hours was the "linear" answer. I mean, assuming Tom and Dick do the same amount of work/time (clearly they have to, since Tom+Harry do the same as Dick+Harry), then either one of them already do it in 4 hours alone, which means Harry doesn't do any work at all.
22:00:45 <shachaf> fizzie: No, they all cooperate on the work
22:01:25 <shachaf> Wait, did I write it wrong?
22:02:11 <shachaf> Tom and Dick in 2 hours; Tom and Harry in 3 hours; Dick and Harry in 4 hours
22:02:18 <fizzie> Oh. Well, that makes more sense.
22:03:23 <fizzie> I thought it was a joke about either Harry being useless (doing 0 units of work/hour), or actively sabotaging things (any job involving Harry takes 4 hours).
22:06:46 <int-e> quintopia: I get a CCNOT from the Fredkin gate using only one constant which can be used over and over again. http://sprunge.us/TcEN
22:09:08 <int-e> quintopia: Where by "constant" I really mean a variable with a predefined initial state; is there a better short name for this?
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22:32:39 <quintopia> how does a ccnot differ from a cnot?
22:33:25 <int-e> It checks the conjunction of two inputs.
22:34:58 <int-e> The fundamental difference is that CNOT is affine (and affine functions are closed under compositions so CNOT by itself isn't very useful) and CCNOT is not affine (and in fact, universal).
22:36:27 <int-e> (affine: every output is the xor of a subset of inputs, possibly negated)
22:37:29 <int-e> linear is doesn't have the optional negation
22:37:51 <shachaf> Why does negation correspond to translation?
22:38:14 <int-e> because xor is addition, and 1 xor x is the negation of x
22:41:27 <int-e> (CNOT is actually linear. Affinity is natural because it's one of the criteria by Post: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness#Characterization_of_functional_completeness )
22:43:23 <int-e> (If you look closely you'll see that CCNOT needs constants to become functionally complete; it's false-preserving.)
22:44:31 <shachaf> Do you like the exterior algebra?
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22:58:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Malbranche]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53437&oldid=50554 * Malbranche * (+173) Added references to some new Malbolge Unshackled programs
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00:09:05 <Roger9> I'm completely out of ideas. Should I try forgetting about the whole idea of "brainstorming esolang ideas" for a while to see if an idea pops up?
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00:09:40 <Roger9> I have a concept for a BF-like language in which the only conditional flow control requires programs to modify their own source code, but that's almost definitely been done before.
00:09:57 <Slereah_> All the BF-like languages have been done
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00:10:04 <Slereah_> Make an unlambda clone for a change!
00:10:33 <Roger9> Slereah_: The "BF-likeness" is only in the syntax, though. There'd be no tape, no tape pointer, because the only memory would be the code itself.
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00:15:22 <HackEgo> 1/2:physiology//Physiology looks confusingly like psychology when written in English. \ tile shuffling//Tile shuffve games. ly addictie basis of many highling is th \ this sentence//This sentence is just. Taneb invented it. \ craptimum//A craptimum is a non-optimal optimum. \ evil throne//The evil throne belongs to oerjan, when he's not b
00:15:23 <HackEgo> 2/2:eing overthrone. He rarely sits on it, though, since that time it tried to eat him.
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00:30:09 <oerjan> helloily. have a seat hth
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00:35:12 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:36:24 <quintopia> i cant even remember what the original version was anymore
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00:38:34 <oerjan> <boily> reversible computing sounds nice, but are there applications? <-- it can theoretically work around landauer's principle and thus has no minimum energy need for computation
00:39:49 <oerjan> like every other innovative chip design, it has no chance to beat intel economically.
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00:40:33 <shachaf> oerjan: do you like the mill twh
00:41:59 <oerjan> i am not overly acquainted with it
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00:43:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge Unshackled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53438&oldid=52811 * Malbranche * (+82) /* External resources */ Added link to interpreter written in C
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00:43:46 <lambdabot> CYUL 270008Z 25010KT 3SM -SN FEW009 BKN012 OVC025 M03/M07 A2988 RMK SF1SF5SC3 SF TR SLP123
00:53:17 <lambdabot> KATL 262352Z 33006KT 10SM FEW180 11/M03 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP207 T01111028 10172 20111 53002
01:02:37 <lambdabot> ENVA 270050Z 12007KT CAVOK M07/M08 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 15006KT
01:13:58 <lambdabot> EGLL 270050Z AUTO 21009KT 9999 FEW042 06/05 Q1021 TEMPO BKN014
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01:33:48 <fizzie> "The [High Court of Chivalry] was last convened in 1954 for the case of Manchester Corporation v Manchester Palace of Varieties Ltd; prior to this, the Court had not sat for two centuries and before hearing the case, the Court first had to rule whether it still existed."
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03:44:36 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> quintopia: Where by "constant" I really mean a variable with a predefined initial state; is there a better short name for this? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancilla_bit
03:51:12 <oerjan> doesthiswork: this is in the context of reversible computing
03:56:41 <oerjan> quantum computing is already reversible
03:57:17 <doesthiswork> yes that is true, but it bothers me that the word is not
05:34:41 <zzo38> The solve() function in http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/raw/ff-bezier.c?name=52838c1177c669195f2bbb8e78adc917d47a3972 seem a bit messy to me, with all of the if/else, some cases involving trigonometry, etc. But, it does seem to work from what I can tell.
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05:49:46 <zzo38> It still seemed easier to me than the other stuff that I had read after already implementing this (I just had the idea to do it by solving cubics, so I looked up solving cubics in Wikipedia, and then figured out the rest by myself), but, I don't really know for sure.
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08:48:22 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/eFpRBy3
09:08:16 <zzo38> Have you ever implemented Bezier curves?
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12:28:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you want solving cubics on doubles in a numerically stable way, I recommend to steal the function gsl_poly_solve_cubic from GSL, provided its Gnu GPL licencing isn't a problem.
12:29:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/
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12:32:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't recommend writing your own unless you really understand the theory, because it's very easy to mess up the specifics and write a function that in some cases produces large errors
12:33:18 <b_jonas> and the function in gsl is easy to extract, it doesn't require to pull in the whole library
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16:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tables]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53439&oldid=53238 * HereToAnnoy * (+1603)
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17:26:06 <zzo38> Well, my function would be easily enough to replace it look like. I will look at that to see how that one differs from mine
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18:19:03 <zzo38> I can see now, they also use trigonometry in some cases. There are other similarities too to what I wrote. My "Delta0" is what they called "q", and my "Delta1" is their "r".
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19:20:41 <xkapastel> is anyone here familiar with block cellular automata? i'd like to know if there's a way to convert a given block ca to a non-block ca
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20:23:10 <xkapastel> i'll say a bit about why i want one: it's very easy to create a block ca that's reversible, or to determine that a given block ca is reversible
20:23:32 <xkapastel> but it's hard to design a reversible non-block ca, and determining whether a given non-block ca is reversible (or finding its inverse rule) is undecidable
20:23:58 <xkapastel> so it would be interesting to create a reversible block ca, then split it in to a pair of non-block cas that were inverses of each other
20:24:14 <xkapastel> given only one of those non-block cas it would be computationally infeasible to find the other, which could form the basis of a public key crypto system
20:25:16 <xkapastel> (there are already a few systems for symmetric key cryptography with reversible ca)
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23:38:45 <Roger9> life is like a chicken, full of metaphors that don't make sense
23:38:54 <HackEgo> ‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
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23:53:45 <boily> life is like half a grapefruit.
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00:01:21 <\oren\> why does a credit card payment to someone else take 3-5 business days but transferring money to my credit card is instantaneous?
00:02:27 <shachaf> Transferring money to my credit card takes as much as any ACH transfer.
00:02:38 <shachaf> Unless it's within the same bank maybe.
00:06:05 <\oren\> yeah they are both with TD
00:06:22 <\oren\> TD credit card and TD checking account
00:12:08 <shachaf> Then it's probably because the bank can do internal transfers easily.
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00:46:03 <Roger9> can I use TwoDucks to obtain information about Feather?
00:47:03 <Sgeo> C# lambdas are like constants with a limited form of return-type polymorphism, right?
00:47:33 <Sgeo> They can be a function or an expression tree
00:47:43 <Sgeo> I'm unsober on sleep deprivation
00:51:51 <oerjan> Roger9: sounds plausible.
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00:53:18 <Roger9> One concept I had was one similar to one-bit-per-cell brainfuck, but (1) input would be written to the tape before the program begins, (2) output would be the tape at the end, and (3) rather than a bit flip or toggle, you'd only be able to swap two cell values.
00:53:32 <Roger9> so, you could, say, swap the value of cell 1 with the value of cell 2.
00:54:25 <Roger9> there'd be a swap instruction - maybe @ - that would, when first called, fill a SWAP register with a pointer to the current cell. if it's called with the register full, it would swap the cell that the register points to with the current cell, and then clear the register.
01:22:19 <quintopia> and somehow you have to design your I/0 scheme so that all possible outputs have the same number of zeroes and ones as all possible inputs
01:22:46 <quintopia> its definitely not turing complete
01:24:01 <Roger9> the number of zeroes, due to the fact that the tape is infinite, is infinite, but the number of ones can't be changed
01:24:14 <Roger9> well, "unbounded" anyway
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01:32:37 <quintopia> you could make it tc if the tape was ...010101010101011010101...
01:33:12 <Roger9> it'd be trivial to convert between that and brainfuck if the tape was initialized with repeated 01
01:33:29 <Roger9> you can represent 1 as 10, and 0 as 01
01:34:03 <Roger9> then, to toggle a bit, you'd swap the two. so "+" would become "@>@<", and ">" would become ">>" since we're using two cells to represent a toggleable bit
01:34:42 <Roger9> in principle, the input could initialize the tape with enough 1s to do the calculation with
01:34:54 <Roger9> but the input can't be infinite
01:43:49 <quintopia> another possibility for TC is ...000000000....0000inputsection111111...11111111...
01:47:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Swapfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53440 * Rdococ * (+1369) Created page with "'''Swapfuck''' is a derivative of [[brainfuck]] by [[User:Rdococ]], which shares some similarities with [[boolfuck]]. == Differences from brainfuck == * Input is loaded into..."
01:47:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53441&oldid=53403 * Rdococ * (+98)
01:49:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BASICER]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53442&oldid=46700 * Rdococ * (-147)
01:49:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BASICER]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53443&oldid=53442 * Rdococ * (-81)
01:50:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BASICER]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53444&oldid=53443 * Rdococ * (-183)
01:54:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53445&oldid=53441 * Rdococ * (+181)
01:56:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53446&oldid=53445 * Rdococ * (+15) BASICER has unbounded input, but it is most definitely a bounded storage machine.
01:57:17 <quintopia> yeah otherwise the user would have to type 1 to continue
01:57:58 <Roger9> Well, a GOTO with only one argument goes there without asking the use.r
01:58:35 <quintopia> my bad. they would have to type 1 or 2 to continue
01:59:07 <quintopia> you should add categories to swapfuck
01:59:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53447&oldid=53446 * Rdococ * (-6) QWOP can print anything (and print things on a loop, or otherwise not halt), but it can only receive a single character of input, which means it's most likely a BSM with bounded input.
01:59:59 <Roger9> I keep forgetting about categories
02:01:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Swapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53448&oldid=53440 * Rdococ * (+135) Added categories. Delicious.
02:02:24 <Roger9> basicfuck needs delicious categories too
02:03:35 <Roger9> quintopia: Do you think basicfuck is low-level? (It's a somewhat abstracted language that compiles to brainfuck).
02:03:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53449&oldid=53436 * Rdococ * (+80)
02:04:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Swapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53450&oldid=53448 * Rdococ * (+35)
02:10:01 <Roger9> The language is pretty simple. It's designed to reduce the need for temporary variables, which get taken care of by the compiler.
02:13:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basicfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53451&oldid=53449 * Rdococ * (+93)
02:14:37 <Roger9> For the moment, I've added the low-level category template to the basicfuck article. I'm not sure that actually suits it, though.
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02:33:53 <Roger9> Everybody that makes a brainfuck derivative will die...
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05:08:10 <Sgeo> I haven't looked at it in a while
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08:25:38 <shachaf> whoa, it's been more than two weeks since the last olist
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08:53:56 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
08:54:05 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Eek" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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11:46:32 <HackEgo> 1/2:something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom//It is now. \ sgeo//Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments. \ oic//OIC, OIC means Oh I see. \ for further details for futher de
11:46:33 <HackEgo> 2/2:tails.//See `? for further details for futher details. \ veetan//Veetans are a race of cuddly, yet sturdy aliens in the Drive comic. Their maximum lifespan is 25 years, but they use it well.
11:47:18 <shachaf> am i using my lifespan well?
11:48:22 <Taneb> shachaf: you can use your lifespan well to acquire lifespan from the lifespan table!
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12:00:12 <shachaf> Taneb: How does that work?
12:00:35 <Taneb> shachaf: it's quite a simple pulley system, actually
12:00:53 <Taneb> As you turn the handle, a rope coils or uncoils, raising or lowering a bucket
12:00:58 <Cale> A well W is said to be /lifespan/ if there exists a nonempty collection of lives L for which W is contained in span(L).
12:04:21 <HackEgo> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, viol
12:04:45 <HackEgo> 2/2:violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance.
12:04:54 <b_jonas> attendance, with an "a". ok.
12:05:26 <Taneb> I get the feeling a lot of this is based on what conjugation a verb in Latin is
12:05:44 <shachaf> Cale: Wouldn't W be "lifespanned"?
12:06:18 <b_jonas> Taneb: I think it's mostly based on old french, and french and english took most of the words from there. latin didn't have half of those words.
12:06:20 <shachaf> Or maybe if it was equality rather than subset
12:06:20 <Taneb> "insto" is first conjugation, hence "instans" => "instance"
12:06:32 <b_jonas> although they might be somehow remotely basd on latin or something
12:06:35 <Taneb> "existo" is third declension, hence "existens" => "existence"
12:10:09 <Taneb> Hmm, balans is a Latin word but it means something completely different
12:11:42 <Taneb> So, a lot, possibly most, but certainly not all, are as I thought
12:27:59 <boily> helloochaf, Tanelle, Chello, b_jellonas.
12:28:18 <boily> fo instizzle ma nizzle.
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15:24:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53452&oldid=53400 * Zseri * (+60) +plugin loading
15:24:41 <zseri> I added a plugin system to XTW.
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17:20:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien/Compilers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53453 * Conor O'Brien * (+167) Created page with "Index of "compilers". Here I write "higher level" languages that compile down into esoteric languages. # [[User:Conor O'Brien/Compilers/Quartic|Quartic]] → [[4]]"
17:20:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53454&oldid=52566 * Conor O'Brien * (+50)
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18:18:14 <ais523> http://esoteric.codes/post/167978996903/ais523-interview-2017
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19:12:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien/Compilers/Quartic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53455 * Conor O'Brien * (+4266) Created page with "Quartic is a language designed to compile to the language [[4]]. Written in Ruby, the compiler can be found [https://gist.github.com/ConorOBrien-Foxx/02bb95b48a143e26b6331fc8a..."
19:29:07 <\oren\> Apparently modern compilers don't emit any of the special string instructions when compiling strcmp, strcat, etc
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19:31:38 <LeoLambda> Wait really? I don't think that's true at all.
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19:45:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, at least when optimizing for speed, but it depends on what exact cpu generation you're optimizing for
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19:49:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53456&oldid=53369 * B jonas * (+120) link interview
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19:55:29 <b_jonas> I think there's a typo in that interview, at "The niceness of a language that has a very simple implementation like this is that it’s easy to precisely specify how it works in both However,"
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20:01:29 <b_jonas> I should find time to work on that esolang I want to create
20:02:38 <b_jonas> I think I even know now how to prove that it (the esolang I want to make) can efficiently simulate a pointer machine (not just a Turing-machine, which I knew it could simulate)
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21:06:58 <HackEgo> olist 1106: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:19:09 <int-e> @tell oerjan Ancilla thanks!
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00:37:58 <lambdabot> int-e said 2h 18m 48s ago: Ancilla thanks!
00:38:40 <HackEgo> @messages-loud @messages-fond / @messages-flood @messages-bond // @messages-lousy @messages-sound / @messages-lost @messages-found // @messages-proud @messages-bold / @messages-good @messages-gold
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00:44:15 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Eek" oerjan the shifty knite is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:44:31 <shachaf> `swrjan s/knite/loud poet/
00:44:33 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Eek" oerjan the shifty loud poet is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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00:53:32 <oerjan> ais523: hm b_jonas edited your user page. it's probably innocent, but still not something we do...
00:54:30 <oerjan> mind you, you're way overqualified for a main space article.
00:54:58 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, can we get you a main space article?
00:55:28 <ais523> oerjan: I'm mostly just amused that b_jonas edited in one interview and not the other one
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00:55:41 <shachaf> Editing ais523's user page to refer to him in third person is a bit odd.
00:55:46 <ais523> (also, it'd be a poor admin who doesn't keep up with edits to their own user page)
00:55:57 <ais523> but yes, something like that should be in articlespace really
00:56:08 <oerjan> shachaf: i already have one hth
00:56:19 <boily> hellørjan, helloochaf, his523.
00:56:44 <shachaf> But that was an empty promise, I'll just continue editing the other wiki page.
00:56:59 <shachaf> I doubt I could pass the CAPTCHA and make a wiki user.
00:59:06 <ais523> do you want me to do an admin captch override for you?
00:59:07 <oerjan> if you're having trouble with the CAPTCHE, i suggest discussing how to get through it with totallyhuman
00:59:15 <ais523> *admin captcha override
00:59:23 <oerjan> (who isn't here, anyway.)
00:59:29 <ais523> (this is an actual thing, I used to be one of the main admins doing them over at Wikipedia)
01:00:44 <shachaf> No, I don't really want an account.
01:00:49 * oerjan should have pretended he was doing italian plural
01:00:49 <shachaf> I'd start feeling obligated to edit things
01:01:01 <shachaf> That's also why I don't edit Wikipedia, and instead make oerjan do my dirty work for me.
01:01:16 <shachaf> (But then elliott got mad at me for that so I stopped doing it.)
01:02:17 <oerjan> it's been a while, then.
01:04:42 <boily> \oren\: ヘ＼＼オレン＼. https://youtu.be/3pKESMsMQBw
01:22:33 <HackEgo> 1/1:flu shot//Flu shots are usually available from some time in the first half of November. \ itay//Itay is Christmas in Italy. \ adu//Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu! \ facebook//Facebook is Taneb's face collection. \ hand//A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
01:26:15 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Eek" oerjan the shifty loud poet is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
01:26:27 <boily> oerjan: do you tap for green mana?
01:26:40 <shachaf> boily: that's a little personal, don't you think?
01:27:11 <oerjan> i have never actually played MtG hth
01:27:26 <ais523> nor have most MtG creatures, I suspect
01:27:38 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Eek" oerjan the shifty loud poet is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
01:29:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Superchargedcoffee * New user account
01:30:30 * oerjan pronounces "Roald Dahl" with a strong trill
01:30:50 <oerjan> i think that's definition 6 here https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mince
01:31:16 <shachaf> But I thought Dahl was Norwegian.
01:31:20 <oerjan> `card-by-name omnidryad
01:31:23 <shachaf> So presumably your pronunciation is correct.
01:31:28 <HackEgo> Dryad Arbor \ Land Creature -- Forest Dryad \ 1/1 \ (Dryad Arbor isn't a spell, it's affected by summoning sickness, and it has "{T}: Add {G} to your mana pool.") \ [Green color indicator.] \ FUT-U, V12-M \ \ Dryad Militant \ (g/w) \ Creature -- Dryad Soldier \ 2/1 \ If an instant or sorcery card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile
01:31:32 <oerjan> shachaf: yes but we don't usually trill that much
01:31:42 <HackEgo> bin/card-by-name \ bin/random-card
01:31:56 * oerjan keeps the trill for a second or so
01:32:02 <HackEgo> Dryad Arbor \ Land Creature -- Forest Dryad \ 1/1 \ (Dryad Arbor isn't a spell, it's affected by summoning sickness, and it has "{T}: Add {G} to your mana pool.") \ [Green color indicator.] \ FUT-U, V12-M
01:32:24 <ais523> oh come on, all the dryads in Magic and it picks /that/ one?
01:32:39 <HackEgo> Vine Dryad \ 3G \ Creature -- Dryad \ 1/3 \ Flash \ Forestwalk (This creature can't be blocked as long as defending player controls a Forest.) \ You may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay Vine Dryad's mana cost. \ MM-R
01:32:47 <HackEgo> Conclave Naturalists \ 4G \ Creature -- Dryad \ 4/4 \ When Conclave Naturalists enters the battlefield, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment. \ ORI-U
01:32:49 <HackEgo> Oakheart Dryads \ 2G \ Enchantment Creature -- Nymph Dryad \ 2/3 \ Constellation -- Whenever Oakheart Dryads or another enchantment enters the battlefield under your control, target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn. \ JOU-C
01:32:52 <boily> dryad arbor is the most bestest dryad ever.
01:32:52 <HackEgo> Unseen Walker \ 1G \ Creature -- Dryad \ 1/1 \ Forestwalk (This creature can't be blocked as long as defending player controls a Forest.) \ {1}{G}{G}: Target creature gains forestwalk until end of turn. \ MI-U, 6E-U
01:32:55 <HackEgo> Wormwood Dryad \ 2G \ Creature -- Dryad \ 3/1 \ {G}: Wormwood Dryad gains forestwalk until end of turn and deals 1 damage to you. (It can't be blocked as long as defending player controls a Forest.) \ {B}: Wormwood Dryad gains swampwalk until end of turn and deals 1 damage to you. (It can't be blocked as long as defending player controls a Swamp.)
01:33:04 <shachaf> You don't like Dryad Arbor?
01:33:04 <ais523> I conclude that dryads don't normally tap for {G}
01:33:08 <ais523> although of course they can
01:33:13 <ais523> shachaf: I do, but it's somewhat infamous
01:33:19 <shachaf> I think any permanent cacn tap for {G}
01:33:21 <ais523> it's likely the most famous Dryad by far
01:33:31 <shachaf> It's the only one I could think of offhand
01:33:34 <ais523> which is weird, because it should have been a Treefolk really
01:33:37 <shachaf> And I haven't even used it.
01:34:00 <ais523> also, you can set things up to allow any permanent to tap for {G} but most of them don't without a lot of help
01:34:06 <ais523> `card-by-name carven caryatid
01:34:07 <HackEgo> Carven Caryatid \ 1GG \ Creature -- Spirit \ 2/5 \ Defender (This creature can't attack.) \ When Carven Caryatid enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ RAV-U
01:34:16 <ais523> thought it might be another {G}-tapper
01:35:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53457&oldid=53394 * Superchargedcoffee * (+502) Introduction
01:44:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53458&oldid=52810 * Superchargedcoffee * (+161) /* Looks Like */
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01:53:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53459&oldid=53458 * Superchargedcoffee * (+0) moved my previous edit to correct location
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09:42:17 <b_jonas> "ais523: hm b_jonas edited your user page. it's probably innocent, but still not something we do..." => is it? should I create a main namespace page describing ais523 in third person instead?
09:42:51 <b_jonas> "oerjan: I'm mostly just amused that b_jonas edited in one interview and not the other one" => I added the newer interview, which shows what esolanging you do now.
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10:10:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ais523]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53460 * B jonas * (+1553) Created page with "'''ais523''' is a European mathematician and esoteric language creator. His most famous creation is [[Underload]], but he has a lot of other interesting languages listed on [..."
10:10:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53461&oldid=53456 * B jonas * (-120) rv. I created a main space page instead.
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12:10:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Funding]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53462&oldid=53415 * Fizzie * (+503) /* Discussion */ Offer you can refuse, but probably shouldn't.
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18:07:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53463&oldid=53452 * Zseri * (+205) +var assign cmd 'a'
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18:23:59 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnzt_4fvLjI
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18:43:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53464&oldid=40879 * Wheatwizard * (+178) /* Instructions */
18:44:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53465&oldid=53464 * Wheatwizard * (-29) Portal is not Turing complete
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19:00:25 <hppavilion[alt]> Is there a standard way to express currency for a given year? (ISO 4217-ish, preferably)
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19:00:58 <hppavilion[alt]> Such as something like '$currency_code<sub>$year</sub> $quantity'
19:01:26 <hppavilion[alt]> I mean expressing the value of a given currency for a particular year
19:01:30 <\oren\> hppavilion[alt]: you mean like say "in USD, inflation adjusted to 2000"
19:02:10 <\oren\> well one problem is that there are different ways to measure and adjust for inflation
19:02:35 <hppavilion[alt]> I'm just going to use a subscript year on the currency for now
19:03:26 <Slereah_> yeah comparing money at two dates isn't really an exact science
19:03:37 <Slereah_> since there's a lot of things that factor in
19:03:57 <Slereah_> I think one common method is like
19:04:07 <Slereah_> Median man-hour salary to buy common commodities?
19:04:52 <\oren\> I mean my perception of inflation is kinda skewed because I only really remember how much candy bars used to cost but there are other factors in that
19:05:23 <hppavilion[alt]> Slereah_: One type of indicator is a 'basket indicator', which is basically just 'if I wanted to buy similar items in any given year, how much would it cost me?'
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19:06:42 <\oren\> a chocolate bar used to cost one dollar, tax included. nowadays it costs a dollar 30 or something
19:06:46 <hppavilion[alt]> One of my favorites is the Christmas Price Index (CPI), which is the cost of 12 partridges, 12 pear trees, 22 turtle doves, 30 french hens, 36 calling birds, etc.
19:07:08 <Slereah_> I always buy the same thing at McDonalds
19:07:47 <\oren\> of course my dad told me a chocolate bar used to cost a dime
19:07:58 <\oren\> which is sooooo unfair
19:08:33 <hppavilion[alt]> \oren\: When I was your age, you could go to the store with a quarter, buy a loaf of bread and 3 candy bars, and still have a dollar fifty left over...
19:11:17 <hppavilion[alt]> "When I was your age, a million dollars was a small loan" "No, it wasn't."
19:15:07 <int-e> . o O ( when you reach my age, a million dollars will be a small loan )
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19:39:52 <zseri> I currently think about a programming language, which can determine if a function will halt, but doesn't allow this detection if this function is in the call stack, which should be solvable.
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19:40:26 <zseri> the halting problem wouldn't occur in this language
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20:38:11 <fizzie> Any objections here re taking the free hosting for the wiki that we were offered?
20:39:40 <int-e> Does it come with any strings attached?
20:39:57 * int-e hasn't been following (but I've seen http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Funding )
20:40:33 <int-e> cute company name btw
20:41:57 <fizzie> If it has strings, they're not visible. I mean, I guess there sort of is an inherent string in any such offer that it'd take effort to move away if they reconsider.
20:42:33 <int-e> I was thinking stuff like sponsor links.
20:43:02 <fizzie> They said they'd appreciate a "tasteful, understated" (quoting myself) link back from somewhere, which I think would be reasonable anyway, but didn't imply one was required.
20:44:00 <fizzie> (We've got that "powered by mediawiki" button hanging there already, for example, and it's arguably a similar sort of thing.)
20:46:44 <int-e> I'd worry if they mandated anything, and object if it were a prominent banner (or even third party banner ads)
20:47:01 <int-e> but as is it sounds good to me
20:47:09 <pikhq> If we're talking along the lines of "Hosting provided by Foo Bar Inc" down at the bottom of the page... *shrug*
20:48:32 <zzo38> If user CSS can get rid of such notices and it won't take up so much bandwidth, then it isn't so much of a problem.
20:52:25 <zzo38> If you do not want to store the authentication data you could use OpenID, although, not everyone will have OpenID (even though I do).
20:53:58 <int-e> well... if CaC is trustworthy enough...
20:55:54 <fizzie> Yeah, I was going to say I definitely don't trust them *less* than CaC. (Though if the OpenID MediaWiki extension is considered mature/stable and there would be >1 user, we could enable it anyway. Would have to investigate.)
21:03:09 <zzo38> I also don't know if there is any "RDF-based user registration system" extension for MediaWiki or for any other programs. Many stuff can auto fill in by this way, including copying from any other service that you are registered on if they also support RDF. You can then auto fill real name, email, and any other fields you decide to make up, and even OpenID if applicable, etc
21:05:10 <zzo38> NESdev forum now has the ability to link to your RDF data in your user profile (at my request), but there is no ability to auto-fill your profile from it, to register using it, or to export it to RDF.
21:06:06 <int-e> . o O ( they need blockchain technology to make it work )
21:06:17 <int-e> fungot: what do you think of blockchains?
21:06:17 <fungot> int-e: 89715 is totally uncool.
21:06:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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00:06:24 <boily> fungot: do you eat mice?
00:06:25 <fungot> boily: i had actually forgotten about that. couldn't have been ' foo drops packets with any ecn flags set'. save it similarily to `circe-chat-target', since i expect to pick up
00:06:42 <boily> fungot: they are plentyful and tasty! in season! organic!
00:06:42 <fungot> boily: i think he's snoring from the room. the south of the border between generics and duck typing, interfaces are inherent in the system.
00:06:57 <boily> fungot: they don't snore, just being generally invasive.
00:06:58 <fungot> boily: pupeno. ( 1) plus the size of the current write-buffer into the read-buffer.
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02:47:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53466&oldid=41060 * Wheatwizard * (-57) Portal 2 is not Turing complete
02:48:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53467&oldid=53465 * Wheatwizard * (-28) To be a Turing Tarpit a language must be Turing complete
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03:05:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Portal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53468 * Wheatwizard * (+826) Created page with "== Turing Completeness == Since I removed the [[Turing complete]] and [[Turing Tarpit]] tags, I figured I would include a proof that portal is not TC. === Proof of Turing In..."
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05:26:58 <zzo38> My own last-strike rules for Magic: the Gathering, which I had written before Unstable was announced, is a bit difference from the Unstable rules.
05:28:08 <zzo38> How would you have done it, though? And what card you will make up with last strike?
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10:40:40 <fizzie> After something like three months of keeping https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Captcha/help open in a tab on my phone, finally added some specific help text in there.
10:40:43 <fizzie> (Sadly only on the English localization; I'm not qualified to do most of the 67 other languages that message has been translated into.)
10:43:06 <ais523> you could do Finnish, I guess?
10:43:18 <fizzie> I could do Finnish, and I could probably muddle through Swedish.
10:44:09 <shachaf> "You will need to have cookies enabled in your browser for this to work."
10:44:26 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know what that means, TBH.
10:44:27 <shachaf> How come esolangs.org doesn't show an annoying popup when you visit it to inform you that it uses cookies?
10:44:36 <shachaf> Are you complying with all EU regulations?
10:44:55 <fizzie> Ohh, I think we probably should be showing that.
10:45:05 <fizzie> I've never looked into what the regulations exactly are.
10:45:17 <shachaf> Maybe it's just because of my US-based IP address.
10:46:05 <ais523> the regulations were basically intended to prevent people using cookies for all sorts of random tracking, by requiring sites to tell people about long-lived cookies and what they were used for
10:46:13 <ais523> but most sites decided just to publish a really long list rather than actually use fewer cookies
10:46:35 <fizzie> I don't think the warning is a stock MediaWiki feature. There's Extension:CookieWarning though.
10:47:03 <shachaf> Oh, some types of cookies are exempt.
10:47:32 <ais523> fizzie: http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm
10:48:04 <fizzie> Maybe the usual MediaWiki cookies are okay, then.
10:48:16 * ais523 looks at the cookies esolang.org has set
10:48:38 <ais523> UseDC and UseCDNCache are the main suspicious ones, why are those client-side?
10:48:46 <shachaf> Does Wikipedia show the warning for EU users?
10:49:16 <ais523> no, it doesn't, I just checked
10:49:20 <shachaf> Those sound like they fall under "used for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication"
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10:49:37 <fizzie> I've only got esolang_wikiUserID, esolang_wikiUserName and esolang_wiki_session set.
10:49:44 <ais523> some are moderately long lived, too
10:49:54 <ais523> fizzie: oh, some of mine might have been there from a much older login, I guess
10:50:09 <ais523> I suppose I'll clear my cookies for Esolang and log back in to see how many I get
10:50:29 <shachaf> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T110353
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10:51:06 <ais523> I have four: esolang_wiki_{_session,UserID,UserName,Token}
10:51:10 <ais523> those all seem reasonable
10:51:48 <fizzie> I wonder what Token is for, and why I don't have one.
10:51:55 <shachaf> Oh man, the esolangs.org front page is featuring a pretty good language.
10:52:05 <ais523> fizzie: apparently it implements the "remember me" functionality
10:52:13 <ais523> maybe you didn't turn that on?
10:52:21 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm not logged in very often. :)
10:52:37 <ais523> shachaf: we just parked it on BF because it's a fairly safe language to put there and nobody was going through the motions of updating the page
10:52:53 <shachaf> I might use that as a starting point for my own esolang.
10:52:56 <fizzie> Incidentally, MediaWiki 1.29 (which I was thinking of upgrading to later today) changes the default cookie expiration from 180 days to 30 days, though "login cookies" (whatever they are) stay at 180.
10:52:58 <shachaf> Just need to change a few things around.
10:53:11 <fizzie> shachaf: You could replace the commands with humorous words.
10:56:07 <fizzie> ais523: By the way, since you're one of the wiki admins... a UK hosting company offered to sponsor us a free server on their cloud infrastructure. I mentioned we might do a "tasteful, unostentatious" link to them from somewhere on the page, and they said they'd appreciate it, but it's not mandatory. Any concerns about that?
10:56:12 <fizzie> (We're already doing one to MediaWiki in the bottom header, I think it's in the same category of things.)
10:56:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Userlogin-remembermypassword]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53469 * Ais523 * (+38) there's some debate about whether this option falls afoul of EU cookie law; let's give people informed consent about how it works, just in case
10:57:12 <ais523> I'm not concerned about that, so long as it's factual (e.g. "hosted by {company name/logo}")
10:57:41 <ais523> it's equivalent to the "powered by mediawiki" logo, IMO
10:57:57 <fizzie> That's what I thought too.
10:58:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Remembermypassword]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53470 * Ais523 * (+98) I can't figure out where this message is even used, but mentioning cookies in it too just in case
10:59:14 <ais523> meanwhile, does this channel have any opinions on the recent ridiculous OS X security bug?
10:59:17 <shachaf> Did you end up buying a house by the power station?
11:00:10 <Taneb> ais523: I'm just wondering how it could possibly have come about
11:00:27 <Taneb> Did they just have root with an empty password by default?
11:00:38 <ais523> Taneb: no, it's better than that
11:00:51 <ais523> basically, they have code for upgrading password hashes from old hashing algorithms to newer ones on login, which is fair enough
11:01:08 <ais523> but if the account is disabled, the code that verifies the old password errors out and the upgrade code doesn't actually check the error
11:01:16 <shachaf> Aha, that's why it required two attempts.
11:01:29 <ais523> (errors out while /fetching/ the old account data, not while /verifying/ it)
11:01:41 <ais523> so it goes ahead and sets the password on the account to whatever you entered anyway
11:01:57 <Taneb> That's quite something
11:02:25 <ais523> if the account exists but you entered the wrong password, the fetch succeeds but the hatches don't match, and they actually did check the error there
11:03:02 <shachaf> What can be done about error checking?
11:03:23 <shachaf> It's a cumbersome and verbose part of a lot of boring code.
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11:03:35 <shachaf> Exceptions don't seem like a great answer.
11:03:39 <Taneb> shachaf: not having errors
11:04:08 <ais523> Rust's solution of outputting enums that have to be unpacked to get at the return value is a decent one, IMO
11:04:19 <ais523> (if the function errors out, it outputs a different enum tag so you can't unpack it to the return valuae)
11:04:25 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I'm not concerned about that, so long as it's factual (e.g. "hosted by {company name/logo}")" => could it say "hosting generously provided by {company name with link}"?
11:04:31 <ais523> that at least forces you to write the error handling code
11:04:36 <b_jonas> as in, to show that they've donated hosting for free
11:04:51 <ais523> b_jonas: "hosting provided by" would be OK, I think; filling it with adjectives doesn't fill me with confidence
11:05:38 <shachaf> There are at least two issues. One is that you can just forget to check the error. That can be managed with a fancier type system or these enums or something else.
11:06:09 <shachaf> The other is that the error handling code is so verbose and boring that no one wants to write it in the first place.
11:06:13 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm. how about "hosting donated by {company name with link}"?
11:06:19 <shachaf> I suppose Rust has some macros for handling the common case.
11:06:35 <ais523> b_jonas: that works too
11:06:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's not that noone wants to write it, but that noone wants to read it once it's written
11:07:05 <shachaf> Sure, I'm talking about the code existing, not just how it gets written.
11:07:23 <ais523> shachaf: with a library I'm writing at the moment, the design is such that all errors indicate an actual problem in your own code (not in the surrounding environment), and thus you can safely handle them by, e.g., abort()
11:07:36 <ais523> (and there'll be a wrapper generator that automatically handles all errors in a way of your choice)
11:08:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: and I think there's a problem with the attitude how some programming people (especially the rust ones) try to encourage beginners to learn how to do full error propagation even in throwaway code, when in most code you could get away with just aborting with a stack trace on almost any error,
11:08:18 <ais523> error conditions in the surrounding environment are treated as a special form of user input
11:08:18 <shachaf> There are several languages that make a distinction between errors and panics.
11:08:32 <ais523> that said, this probably is heavily dependent on the fact that it's a UI library
11:09:25 <b_jonas> also the problem when sometimes people want to handle just one type of error, but they don't handle that one early and propagate it correctly, and so they end up with catching all errors and trying to continue the program from wedge state after other unrelated errors
11:09:49 <b_jonas> which is sort of the opposite problem
11:09:49 <ais523> I've had to shout at people before now for just swallowing exceptions
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11:10:20 <b_jonas> since they already know that most code doesn't have to propagate errors properly, they don't even know how to propagate that one important error that they do have to recover from
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11:10:29 <b_jonas> I know these are two opposite lessons, so it's hard to learn both
11:10:30 <ais523> the correct treatment, IMO, is to rethrow (or just not catch, if the language lets you) if it's unexpected or if it's fatal, and handle if it's something that could plausibly happen and can plausibly be fixed
11:11:09 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but also catch the one error you care about as early as possible, not just catch in the outer loop and restart
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11:11:57 <ais523> that said, there's quite a lot of catch(Throwable) in the code I'm working on at work, but then it has reason to violate a huge number of best practices because it's very low-level code
11:12:21 <b_jonas> And I often complain about how people use multi-threading unnecessarily, or multi-threading in the wrong place, and when they do so, that often makes error handling harder.
11:12:47 <shachaf> Is there an esolang where all control flow is based on exceptions?
11:13:22 <Taneb> That sounds like it would be exceptional
11:13:22 <ais523> I'm fairly sure there is, I can't remember what it's called though
11:13:57 <shachaf> Seen any exceptionala cats lately?
11:14:12 <Taneb> No but I think I saw a baby deer last night
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11:14:41 <Taneb> I regret not stopping to take a photo, it was standing in a stream on my cycle home from work
11:14:43 <b_jonas> Also, apparently after rust get the namespacing system almost right, people don't like the few small problems it has, and are trying to replace the whole thing with something completely new and much worse and depreciate the old one. that bothers me.
11:14:50 <shachaf> Is that uncommon in your part of the world?
11:15:01 <b_jonas> (That's unrelated to error handling.)
11:15:32 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/slistp appears to have exceptions as a major part of its control flow
11:18:20 <Taneb> b_jonas: I don't know, it was quite dark and I didn't get a long look
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11:18:33 <Taneb> It may have been a cow calf, but that's really just as surprising
11:19:14 <fizzie> Richmond Park is full of deer herds.
11:19:29 <fizzie> There's always lots of people taking pictures of them too.
11:19:44 <shachaf> I live near Richmond but I've never been.
11:19:54 <shachaf> I might be going there next week, though.
11:21:27 <Taneb> This is about where I was: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.1935737,0.1597291,242m/data=!3m1!1e3
11:22:36 <shachaf> Is there an esolang based on economic concepts?
11:26:57 <ais523> there's at least one thematic one that talks about discounts on goods, but I think it's just a syntax substitution?
11:27:00 <ais523> I'm not aware of any actually good ones
11:31:06 <ais523> shachaf: looks like slistp is the most exception-based language, in the sense of C++/Java-like exceptions
11:32:02 <ais523> there are languages like Incident whose regular control flow isn't Turing-complete and they need to rely on exceptional conditions to gain their computational power, but they aren't exceptions in the normal sense
11:35:59 <Taneb> How far can you get with just function calls, throw, try/catch, and like maybe print
11:41:16 <int-e> Taneb: what kind of state would you have?
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13:45:04 <zseri> I implemented a sematic checker in ZXTW (to check the function argument count), which runs before the vm execution.
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15:22:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53471&oldid=49687 * Fizzie * (+0) Post-upgrade edit test for 1.29.2.
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17:07:22 <b_jonas> M:tG has 13 different basic cards now, right?
17:08:43 <b_jonas> Basic lands of the five basic land types, snow basic lands of the five basic land types, Wastes, Relentless Rats, and Shadowborn Apostle.
17:10:36 <Cale> Those last two don't have the Basic supertype, but have an equivalent condition with regard to deck building.
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17:14:53 <zzo38> There are eleven basic lands in Magic: the Gatering. The ones that aren't lands aren't basic either.
17:15:08 <zzo38> I am calling the first five "conventional basic lands".
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17:23:25 <Cale> Also sort of weird is that Wastes, despite being both Basic and a Land, is not a basic land type, and has no basic land type.
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17:37:32 <zzo38> And has errata at the time of printing. I think they shouldn't do that; the text should be printed on the card.
17:45:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think that's errata. It just has the rules text not printed on it, the same way as https://magiccards.info/mprp/en/25.html (which I have) doesn't have the text printed on.
17:48:02 <zzo38> (I still don't like it though)
17:59:34 <Cale> They should print a textless version of every card, so that people can play the most confusing version of M:tG ever.
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18:13:10 <b_jonas> Cale: people can already do that by (1) using cards in languages that the players don't understand, although for some older cards this can be impossible because they're only printed in English, (2) bad homemade proxies
18:13:39 <zzo38> If you like to play the confusing game, play the version where instead of using the actual card you have to use a different card with the same mana cost but is not a card you actually have. That is a game variant
18:14:17 <b_jonas> I have seen people test some standard (several years ago) deck with unmarked proxies, where only the players know which cheap card stands for which expensive card, so as an onlooker it was very confusing to me
18:14:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: you mean like Richard Garfield, Ph.D. ?
18:14:47 <b_jonas> `card-by-name richard garf
18:14:52 <HackEgo> Richard Garfield, Ph.D. \ 3UU \ Legendary Creature -- Human Designer \ 2/2 \ You may play cards as though they were other Magic cards of your choice with the same mana cost. (Mana cost includes color.) You can't choose the same card twice. \ UNH-R
18:15:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, do you mean I can only play cards that I don't actually have? how would the other players verify that? would they have to check my entire collection to see that I don't have the card?
18:16:14 <zzo38> b_jonas: No; I only mean that is not the card being used in the game right now.
18:16:18 <b_jonas> I mean, I have most of my cards neatly sorted in boxes so I can find them reasonably quickly, but still
18:16:38 <zzo38> Yes, but making that effect a game rule variant rather than a permanent. (I think it was a game variant before the Unhinged card, actually)
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18:18:20 <b_jonas> you'd need to buy a lot of {0} cost cards for that variant.
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18:19:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: in that variant, when I cast a card with morph face down, do I have to announce that it's Disruptive Pitmage? or do I write that in a piece of paper under the card?
18:20:19 <zzo38> I have read it somewhere but do not remember the rules or even if they had complete rules.
18:20:20 <b_jonas> I guess you'd write it in a paper and slip it under
18:20:47 <b_jonas> there would probably have to be limits on what you can play
18:20:57 <int-e> `card-by-name blacker lotus
18:20:58 <HackEgo> Blacker Lotus \ 0 \ Artifact \ {T}: Tear Blacker Lotus into pieces. Add four mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability as a mana source. Remove the pieces from the game afterwards. \ UG-R
18:21:29 <b_jonas> otherwise you'd have to buy playsets of like five {0} cost artifacts for your deck this to play as black lotuses
18:21:48 <zzo38> Blackererererest Lotus {0} Artifact ;; {T}, Burn ~ to ashes, Burn yourself to ashes: Add 17 mana of any single color into your mana pool.
18:24:01 <int-e> does the action of removing the pieces go on the stack? my m:tg grammar is rusty.
18:24:17 <zzo38> Mana abilities don't use the stack.
18:25:04 <zzo38> (But, if it says "target" then it is not a mana ability.)
18:25:34 <b_jonas> besides, the tearing part would certainly be part of the cost in modern oracle updates
18:26:02 <b_jonas> we should probably play old un-cards as if their oracle text were updated to modern rules
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18:26:29 <int-e> oh I read the tearing up as a cost, just the cleanup, would be fun to stifle that ;)
18:27:55 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, you mean the removing the pieces from the game
18:28:04 <b_jonas> I wonder if that might be possible to replace somehow
18:31:12 <b_jonas> I mean, replace it with anything other than removing it from the game
18:31:35 <b_jonas> there are ways to replace it with another effect removing it from the game
18:33:10 <b_jonas> I think you can replace it if you make a commander a copy of Black Lotus.
18:33:54 <b_jonas> ``` grep "^903\.9\." share/mtg/rules.txt
18:33:54 <HackEgo> 903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owner’s hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.
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18:37:28 <b_jonas> Although then you'd have a host of problems, because per 108.2. the pieces might not even count as a card (in terms of comp rules) or an object
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18:39:07 <zzo38> Yes. But that is to be expected if you are playing Un-cards.
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19:00:38 <zzo38> I made up a new rule for languages in GURPS, which is only applicable if your character can read and write Chinese. (This enables Xing La to save a few points.)
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19:05:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53472&oldid=53244 * CANICVS * (+84) Added link to implementation
19:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53473&oldid=53472 * CANICVS * (+35)
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22:13:19 <HackEgo> 1/2:amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole. \ compiler//A compiler (lit. “with-piler”) is one who builds piles together with someone else. \ whom//See: who \ `revert//`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/>. It is a builtin command so ca
22:13:20 <HackEgo> 2/2:nnot be called from other commands. \ mtg//MTG is short for Money Tapping Game.
22:13:49 <boily> mtg is disturbingly accurate.
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22:40:33 <int-e> hmm, the problem in click&point adventures is almost always the same... being stuck on a missed pixel
22:42:59 <shachaf> int-e: I like the feature where you press Tab and it highlights all the clickable objects on screen.
22:43:29 <shachaf> Ah, that was in Thimbleweed Park, now I remember.
22:48:45 <int-e> yeah many recent adventure games have such a feature (often using shift or control)
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23:45:12 <esowiki> [[User:Fizzie]] M https://staging.esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53474&oldid=53471 * Fizzie * (+48) Test non-HackEgo wiki2irc gateway.
23:45:50 <fizzie> (Oh, don't try to follow the https:// link, there's no TLS on that host.)
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