00:01:12 <zzo38> Then you should fix it. Either to add TLS, or to remove the "s". However, HTTPS should not be a requirement; it should be available both ways.
00:03:35 <zzo38> Since I was filtering out HackEgo's wiki message before, now I also filtered out this one. I hope to not filtered out too much; tell me if it has further messages than that. I used the following filter: /F 2 i :/:esowiki![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :
00:04:44 <zzo38> For HackEgo, I used this filter: /F 1 i :/:HackEgo![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :\[wiki\]/i
00:05:38 <zzo38> Sorry, that was wrong; here is the proper way for that "esowiki": /F 2 i :/:esowiki![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :/i
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00:42:30 <zzo38> Why does it now take so long (more than a few seconds) for the picture on my computer to appear after being idle?
00:42:41 <zzo38> (After the picture is visible, it works fine)
00:42:58 <shachaf> Do you mean for the screen to turn on?
00:43:27 <fizzie> (Fixed the HTTPS. And yes, it's available without as well.)
00:43:47 <fizzie> zzo38: At least at the moment it has no other messages, and I'm not planning on adding any. I'll probably stop the [wiki] messages on HackEgo after everything is moved over.
00:44:47 <zzo38> The monitor is already on, it is just idle. After the key is moved or mouse is pushed, the ligh on the monitor is green but the picture is not visible until after a few seconds.
00:44:59 <zzo38> (When it is idle, the light is yellow instead.)
01:19:58 <zzo38> The back of the monitor is hot; that happened before.
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02:59:07 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs
02:59:10 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs
02:59:37 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Thu Nov 30 18:59:34 2017
02:59:52 <HackEgo> 11250:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs \ 11236:2017-11-04 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts \ 11206:2017-10-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is revolutionary \ 11180:2017-09-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is chanterelles
02:59:54 <oerjan> i use UTC for such things hth
03:00:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found
03:00:26 <HackEgo> real: 0m0.001s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.000s
03:00:31 <HackEgo> Fri Dec 1 03:00:07 UTC 2017
03:00:42 <shachaf> I like how UTC isn't even an acronym.
03:00:43 <oerjan> as does HackEgo, so it's all good
03:00:56 <oerjan> of course is an acronym it!
03:01:44 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones)
03:01:46 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones)
03:01:58 <shachaf> You can't change the password of the month!
03:02:01 <oerjan> needed some obvious correction
03:02:03 <shachaf> More like the password of the two minutes.
03:03:42 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
03:03:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sowg: not found
03:04:02 <HackEgo> 10991:2017-06-02 <wob_jonäs> perl -e {$f="wisdom/rules of wisdom";open$i,"<",$f or die;local$/;$s=<$i>;$s=~s/with no space at the end/and end in a newline with no space before that/ or die;$s=~s/\\n\\z// or die;print$s;open$o,">",$f;print$o $s or die;} \ 10982:2017-06-02 <shachäf> undo 10978 \ 10978:2017-06-02 <sleff̈y> whoops \ 10977:2017-05-
03:04:42 <shachaf> `2 nur dowg rules of wisdom
03:05:06 <HackEgo> 2/5:-05-31 <int-̈e> slwd rules of wisdom//s,\',\xe2\x80\x98, \ 10975:2017-05-31 <oerjän> slwd rules of wisdom//s, they,, \ 10087:2017-01-02 <oerjän> slwd rules of wisdom//s/separate/lookup/ \ 9951:2016-12-12 <oerjän> slwd rules of wisdom//s,[.],, \ 9950:2016-12-12 <oerjän> revert 9947 \ 9949:2016-12-12 <oerjän> slwd rules of wisdom//s,th
03:05:19 <shachaf> oerjan: What's with 10975?
03:08:42 <oerjan> `` hg cat wisdom/rules -r 10087
03:08:42 <HackEgo> wisdom/rules: no such file in rev 82893cb913e8
03:08:58 <oerjan> `` hg cat wisdom/'rules of wisdom' -r 10087
03:08:59 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry's humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced with no space at the end, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
03:10:02 <oerjan> i forget, but i guess it makes it even more dependent on the lookup key
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03:42:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ cmd="${1-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
03:43:16 <shachaf> the `2 nur thing was nonsense, of course
03:43:36 <oerjan> i know, although we _could_ hack it to work
03:49:08 <variable> so, I have an idea for a code golf language
03:49:42 <variable> take something like J, and encode it as a, say, a zipfile, with a fixed table
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04:11:56 <Hooloovo0> I'm not sure how well j would compress, especially with fixed tables
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08:05:24 <zzo38> Why do you think my computer monitor overheats? Is it due to voltage or due to something else? Unplugging it does seem to make it less hot, though.
08:09:18 <shachaf> copumpkin: You're still good for those bounties, right?
08:14:16 <zzo38> Is there dust that cannot be seen?
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09:25:42 <zzo38> I have defined some additional traits and modifiers for GURPS, such as Band Limited Invisibility (which allows you to be invisible to only normal vision, only infravision, only radar, etc; normally, if you are invisible to electromagnetic vision, you are invisible to all electromagnetic vision).
09:26:31 <zzo38> Also, do you know what Visible Reflection and Visible Shadow might mean for invisibility to sonar? For electromagnetic invisibility, it is clearly enough.
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12:07:00 <HackEgo> 1/2:jerk//Jerk is the integral of snap. \ codo//The codo button is the dodo's undo button. \ complexity class//Complexity classes are endangered creatures that lived unnoticed until the mid-20th century, when human exploitation caused many populations to collapse. The remaining specimens are now studied ethically in Canada. \ flu shot//Flu
12:07:03 <HackEgo> 2/2:shots are usually available from some time in the first half of November. \ hambiguitous//We're not sure what hambiguitous means, but it's definitely not hth.
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14:05:47 <Taneb> It's so nice when you Google something, realise it absolutely isn't going to give you what you want, and then what you want is in the top result
14:06:05 <Taneb> I wanted to view two text files side by side so I Google'd "horizontal cat"
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14:45:47 <b_jonas> Taneb: diff -yW160 onefile otherfile
14:46:19 <b_jonas> yeah, I know that's not the same. that will try to pair matching lines, so it will inlclude empty lines if necessary
14:46:25 <b_jonas> empty lines on one side or the other
14:46:56 <Taneb> b_jonas: I wound up using "paste"
14:47:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: that can work too, but it's hard to get it to be fixed width
14:47:28 <b_jonas> that's a hard problem in first place because you need to know the encoding and have a character width table too
14:47:49 <b_jonas> now all of those are in libc, so diff or anything could manage, but still
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21:51:42 <zzo38> I just replaced the monitor on my computer. The new one doesn't have the problem I used to have, but there is a few different problem, including a few plastic things sticking in the sides, and the picture is a bit less sharp (but still perfectly readable).
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21:54:55 <variable> I have a stuffed lobster sitting next to me; his name is clawdius
21:57:11 <Taneb> variable, that is a cute name for a stuffed lobster
21:57:22 <Taneb> I have a stuffed shark at my parents' house called Not Bernard
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22:21:34 <zzo38> The other monitor was displaying "Not Optimum Mode" error message and wouldn't display the picture so I reconnected the first one again.
22:21:48 <zzo38> Do you know why it does that, even though it worked at first?
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01:27:59 <HackEgo> 1/2:relrod//A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force. \ latex//LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \} \ rholypoly//A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic! \ third law of thermodynamics//The third law of thermodynamics says that
01:40:46 <HackEgo> 2/2:Taneb cannot reach absolute zero. \ bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
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02:44:38 <boily> what are you looking up at?
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06:02:19 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/wiy1Q8t
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09:37:21 <shachaf> David Madore made an ordinal visualizer: http://www.madore.org/~david/math/drawordinals.html
09:52:41 <shachaf> Oh, I saw this was posted by a David so I thought it was new, but it was a different David.
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11:28:41 * ais523 is reading about compact minimal perfect hash functions
11:28:48 <ais523> it's like metagolf but actually practically useful
11:33:17 <\oren\> TIS-100 is a good golfing game
11:40:17 <int-e> oh that game, hmm, still 4 unfinished programs in the "TIS-NET directory"
11:40:52 <fizzie> Oh, I think I've got one left as well. (And a lot of very insufficiently golfed ones overall.)
11:41:42 <fizzie> I've been waiting for SHENZHEN I/O to appear in a humble bundle or with a big discount. Although now there's that new Zachtronics game as well.
11:42:27 <fizzie> (The new one's more like SpaceChem, I believe.)
11:42:56 <int-e> also http://www.zachtronics.com/the-codex-of-alchemical-engineering/ :P
11:43:15 <int-e> (the screenshots look like that, on a hexagonal grid)
11:44:16 <fizzie> Heh, yes. It even shares part of the name with http://www.zachtronics.com/the-magnum-opus-challenge/
11:45:17 <fizzie> http://www.zachtronics.com/ruckingenur-ii/ "Requires: .NET 2.0, running as Administrator"
11:45:56 <int-e> that one worked in wine for me
11:46:23 <shachaf> fizzie: You don't think it's worth the full price?
11:46:48 <int-e> It's short, not too great, and I didn't appreciate the time pressure on the last level.
11:47:26 <fizzie> shachaf: It might well be, but I don't have a great track record of finding the time to play things. Getting them for cheap makes me feel less bad.
11:47:26 <int-e> (the ruckingeneur one that is)
11:48:41 <int-e> Hmm, gog thinks I'm from Poland, apparently.
11:49:42 <int-e> (I think they messed something up with their caching.)
11:58:33 <\oren\> Unfortunately the only scores I have on here to compare are shachafs and he hasnt done alot of the puzzles
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12:00:35 <int-e> there's https://www.reddit.com/r/tis100/comments/4mka06/table_of_lowest_cyclesnodesinstructions/
12:00:48 <shachaf> I should get all my jams working in WINE.
12:01:02 <shachaf> int-e: Did you jam Shenzhen I/O?
12:01:13 <\oren\> I have resorted to buying my friend opus magnum so I will have scores to compare in it
12:03:25 <int-e> shachaf's so smart
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15:29:48 <fizzie> MediaWiki's whitespace style is just so weird. if ( foo( 'argument' ) ) { ...
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15:30:07 <fizzie> Wonder if it's just them, or if this is a typical PHP thing.
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16:33:59 <Vorpal> fizzie: so everywhere except after function name?
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00:45:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cortex * New user account
00:46:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53474&oldid=53457 * Cortex * (+150)
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00:50:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:QuinePig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53475 * Cortex * (+218) Created page with "Wow. I had the exact same idea for a joke language, just printing the source code. Just goes to show that every original idea is taken lol ~~~~"
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00:55:14 <zzo38> It takes thirty-five seconds for the picture to appear when the monitor is switched on. Do you know what might be wrong?
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00:57:00 <zzo38> (This includes the OSD controls; if a button is pushed before the picture appears, the OSD controls will be visible once the picture appears but not before that.)
00:59:02 <zzo38> Also, I get a high pitch noise from the monitor while it is switched off. When it is turned on or unplugged, the noise goes away until switched off again.
01:03:45 <zzo38> (I timed it using a clock with a second hand; there is one above the television so I took that into the computer room temporarily in order to time it.)
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03:11:53 <zzo38> This time it took fifty seconds.
03:12:04 <zzo38> Hooloovo0: It is VGA, and it is a LCD monitor.
03:12:29 <Hooloovo0> what kind? it doesn't seem like a very good one
03:13:00 <zzo38> It didn't used to do that; it used to be much faster. It only started being slow recently.
03:13:26 <zzo38> (Once the picture is visible though, it will continue to work OK until it is switched off again or is idle.)
03:13:49 <zzo38> (I have done some tests and it does seem to be a problem with the monitor, not with the computer.)
03:14:01 <zzo38> Maybe the problem is a capacitor.
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03:19:23 <zzo38> Do you know about anything like this?
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04:09:59 <deltab> you could try asking in ##electronics
04:10:43 <Hooloovo0> yeah, ##electronics is a great resource
04:11:07 <Hooloovo0> though, since you mention a high-pitched frequency, it certainly sounds like a capacitor is suspicious
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05:04:32 <zzo38> They explained some things; that is good
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07:35:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53476&oldid=50058 * Quintopia * (+17) Influenced
08:53:32 <HackEgo> 180) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 588) <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: your ability to randomly make obvious comments in IRC as if they were profound is not a particularly useful one
08:53:57 <shachaf> Vorpal: I wonder what prompted 588.
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10:19:10 <myname> i would totally play sandwich
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10:50:29 <int-e> <elliott> "One day in September of 2011 — though I'm not sure precisely which one — marked Befunge-93's 18th birthday. That means that Befunge is now old enough to drink in its native land of Canada. To celebrate this, I thought I'd get Befunge-93 drunk to see what would happen."
10:52:44 <int-e> Flobnar, hmm. No esolangs page, but there's https://github.com/catseye/Flobnar
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11:20:15 <Vorpal> shachaf: I have no idea. grep the logs?
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11:23:20 <int-e> the context isn't very enlightening. Some PHP debugging, and then <Vorpal> $user->session_begin(); <Vorpal> hm <Vorpal> so session data <Vorpal> well, that would require analysing a lot of the stuff to figure that out ... maybe it goes back further.
11:24:34 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-10-31#211957ais523unfoog
11:25:08 <fizzie> It's a shame codu.org logs stopped, the formatting and linkability was nice.
11:26:44 <int-e> . o O ( This is where shachaf suggests that fizzie could run his own IRC logging bot. )
11:28:06 <fizzie> If I'm going to be running that non-HackEgo wiki gateway, I guess logging the channel would be an obvious extra feature for it.
11:28:08 <int-e> (To be clear, that idea is, of course, mine. But it does sound like something shachaf would say.)
11:28:36 <fizzie> Would have to feed historical data into it to be initially useful though.
11:28:59 <int-e> nah, it would be useful even without historical data
11:30:41 <fizzie> There are 4516623 rows in my logs table for this channel.
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11:32:51 <fizzie> Actually, I wonder if we already missed the channel turning 15 years.
11:32:59 <fizzie> It was started around this time of the year in 2002.
11:33:19 <fizzie> I think I looked this up sometime earlier this year.
11:34:50 <int-e> registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (14y 48w 2d ago)
11:34:59 <fizzie> Yes, but not created then.
11:35:12 <fizzie> Judging from the mailing list posts, either 8th or 9th of December.
11:35:34 <fizzie> So next Fri/Sat then. How are we going to celebrate?
11:35:59 <int-e> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:08:17 +0000 (GMT)
11:35:59 <int-e> From: "Al. Andreou" <ee4299@ee.teiath.gr>
11:35:59 <int-e> OK, so now we can be found at OPN, #esoteric (it's ours!).
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11:38:38 <shachaf> int-e: It sounds like something I would say?
11:38:55 <shachaf> I don't think I'd've thought to think it, let alone say it.
11:40:44 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, it's just that the suggestion for using Freenode was on 8th, so you can only say it's somewhere between those two emails.
11:43:37 <int-e> fizzie: Ah, there's a big difference between the Date: header and the first Received: header, wow. I probably looked at one of the latter.
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11:45:15 <int-e> Received: [...] 08 Dec 2002 20:43:04 -0700 (MST) / Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 11:39:43 -0800
11:46:09 <int-e> (And being a European I would interpret the former as Dec 9th. :P)
11:48:01 <shachaf> I was not using IRC at that time.
11:48:09 <shachaf> Did I speak English at that time?
11:49:02 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, int-e registered his account exactly 10 weeks before I registered mine
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11:57:01 <fizzie> I was trying to find when I joined the mailing list, but my emails from that era are even less sorted. Earliest I can find is 23 Apr 2001, but that's already from the "new" (sange.fi) list.
11:59:13 <int-e> Oh I was still joking about annual trips around the sun at the time.
12:00:15 <fizzie> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/
12:00:50 <shachaf> fizzie: Looking forward to Independence day?
12:02:05 <fizzie> I'm hoping they're light up something here in blue-white colours. They're doing that in a bunch of places (Globen in Stockholm, the Niagara Falls, the Colosseum) but they haven't published the full list yet.
12:02:32 <shachaf> There's a local independence gala in 12 hours, maybe I should go.
12:07:42 <fizzie> "I don't mind if you send attachments to the list, as long as they're not atrociously huge - let's try to keep them in the tens-of-kilobytes range. But if you do send an attachment, make sure to note that your posting is [Long] in the subject line, for the benefit of subscribers who have limited connection options."
12:07:50 <fizzie> Things have changed a little since then.
12:09:23 <int-e> Well things would be great if data size had not grown with the available bandwidth.
12:11:52 <shachaf> I mean, it's grown, but not as much as bandwidth.
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17:07:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LucasMW * New user account
17:10:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53477&oldid=53474 * LucasMW * (+253) LucasMW Introduction
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17:10:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53478&oldid=53477 * LucasMW * (+90)
17:14:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:LucasMW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53479 * LucasMW * (+333) My First Page
17:17:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:LucasMW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53480&oldid=53479 * LucasMW * (+85)
17:20:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Headache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53481&oldid=45033 * LucasMW * (+129) About another Headache Lang
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17:44:23 <zzo38> The picture on my computer is getting slower; this time it took seventy seconds.
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18:37:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Schozi * New user account
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19:02:58 <int-e> Meh the new NoScript interface is horrible.
19:04:47 <int-e> (And I think I just realized what it is... unfamiliar look aside, I have to aim more carefully now, both horizontal and vertical positioning matters now.)
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19:23:07 <int-e> So what alternatives are there... that support the untrusted/allow temporarily/make permissions permanent workflow?
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20:51:09 <variable> o.O I wonder what will happen to my iced tea if I shut watered off
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21:05:51 <variable> watered: you're a daemon that dispenses water, correct?
21:22:21 <watered> variable: I'm the light of the universe
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21:29:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53482&oldid=53396 * Zzo38 * (+758) Macros
21:38:41 <\oren\> Hmm, I wonder if there is a better way to divide two numbers than repeated substraction
21:41:45 <\oren\> not sure how that helps who
21:43:25 <variable> \oren\: never heard of it, but it sounds like a fun game
21:44:33 <\oren\> quintopia: faster, ideally
21:44:43 <anarki1911> \oren\: is the divisor constant/known ?
21:44:58 <quintopia> i've never played it. isn't it a zachtronics game?
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21:45:39 <\oren\> quintopia: yeah, you have a grid of nodes, each of which is a computer with two registers that can talk to the ones around them
21:46:30 <\oren\> and each compuer can have 15 assembly instructions in its program memroy
21:47:51 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1220769883
21:48:07 <\oren\> This is what I have for division right now
21:48:53 <\oren\> It's not using the stack memory nodes because I couldn't think of a way to use them
21:50:05 <\oren\> the other problem is that you can't even use the other register except by using one of your precious instructions to swap it with the accumulator
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22:09:37 <fizzie> \oren\: I used the stack memory, but only to pass things right through. My only nodes that have something else than a single "MOV X, Y" instruction (where X, Y are directions) are the three left ones in the top row.
22:12:09 <fizzie> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1220792301
22:20:37 <\oren\> It took a whol bunch of work but I made it fadter by special casing 1 as divisor
22:21:26 <fizzie> Huh, there were two completely unnecessary instructions in the screenshot.
22:25:17 <\oren\> fizzie: what performance do u get with that
22:25:37 <fizzie> 7299 cycles, 25 instructions, now that I fixed the silliness.
22:25:56 <fizzie> The cycle count wasn't affected by that, I guess it wasn't a bottleneck.
22:26:42 <\oren\> I got 5452 by special casing 1 but it needed 33 instructions
22:27:52 <\oren\> https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/870748015994009129/31E6FC0D7DC0A792213B340F509C5FC95CB4B476/
22:28:26 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1220807027
22:29:02 <\oren\> and that node is now entirely full of instructions...
22:30:30 <\oren\> hmm, actually, I'm not sure how it's counting instructions, because that looks like more than 33
22:35:43 <\oren\> oh i see, the statistics are best of all the solutions you've made that makes sense
22:37:40 <int-e> which of the problems do you need that division for?
22:38:37 <int-e> oh there's the sequence averager
22:39:59 <\oren\> int-e: yeah but in that case you would want to use few nodes rather than optimize for speed
22:41:20 <int-e> oh bottom row, signal divider
22:42:11 <int-e> I didn't bother, apparently. 28 instructions, 6 nodes, 28 instructions.
22:45:11 <int-e> To make it faster, one could try dividing by, say, 4B first, and then the remainder by B.
22:46:05 <int-e> (and in principle you can even do a binary division scheme, where the stack might actually come in handy)
22:46:17 <int-e> but it seemed to be too much effort.
23:03:27 <int-e> sigh. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1172126
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00:11:28 <fungot> boily: everything of the format. save. restart and hope for recognition." 3.0.
00:46:22 <\oren\> Nah, just a little optimization
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03:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53483&oldid=53478 * Schozi * (+342) /* Introductions */
03:02:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53484&oldid=53483 * Schozi * (+80)
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03:35:24 <zzo38> I found a document about vision, light sources, different bands, and considering the limits of quantum mechanics and even frame rates, etc, for use as alternative rules with role playing game such as GURPS. If I will invent "Scientific Role Playing Game" some time in future, I would want to use this new stuff, I think.
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04:31:16 <variable> zzo38: GURPS is the perfect system for that
04:31:25 <variable> "You want a rule? you get a rule!"
04:32:50 <zzo38> variable: Yes, that can be done. Still I would want to make a new one so that you don't have to change 300 things and so that it can be public domain.
04:32:58 <zzo38> (Although, perhaps not right now)
04:37:19 <zzo38> How much GURPS do you know?
04:40:10 <zzo38> What version? I have fourth edition
04:41:11 <variable> whatever was current ~ 6 yrs ago
04:41:12 <zzo38> I made up a list of various new advantages, disadvantages, and modifiers, some of which I don't know the value or am unsure of, and some of which come from other sources I found in the computer, but also some things I cannot figure out.
04:41:29 <variable> current game of choice is pathfinder
04:42:25 <zzo38> Such as, what do you do if you want to define an Affliction that changes one of your healing powers that heals yourself (such as Vampiric Bite) to heal the target of your attack instead?
04:42:55 <zzo38> I used to play the D&D 3.5e but now I think I prefer GURPS is much better. D&D has too much hit points, for one thing
04:43:03 <zzo38> GURPS is also more scientific, but not quite enough
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04:44:42 <zzo38> I don't mean that only realistic things should exist in the game; I mean that "realistic" things in the game should be realistic.
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05:20:00 <\oren\> " I am convinced that before twenty years are over one half of our earth will have paid a visit to the moon." -- 1865
05:23:05 <shachaf> To be fair, the population was much smaller back then. Maybe only about 100 people.
05:30:25 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvsQ9hYKq7c
05:38:36 <zzo38> (Also, I don't use Magic Missile spell myself; there is better skills)
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05:40:20 <shachaf> zzo38: But what about http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html ?
05:48:13 <zzo38> There is still the better spells, such as Shield. That one blocks Magic Missile, in Dungeons & Dragons (and it also gives you defense).
05:49:17 <zzo38> But I prefer the GURPS game anyways. Dungeons&Dragons doesn't have a Mathematics (Pure) skill.
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08:16:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Soobak0313 * New user account
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08:48:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Heartade * New user account
08:50:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53485&oldid=53484 * Heartade * (+481)
08:51:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Probie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53486 * Heartade * (+13558) This is a language I've been working on for a few months now.
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09:17:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53487&oldid=53482 * Zzo38 * (+538)
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09:27:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53488&oldid=53487 * Zzo38 * (-797) Simpler macros
09:28:07 <zzo38> Do you think I am correct about computation class of Crement esolang?
09:28:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53489&oldid=53488 * Zzo38 * (+101)
09:34:35 <ais523> zzo38: I think it's probably TC too but I'm not sure
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11:11:26 <b_jonas> argh! I hear of this in last minute only?
11:11:41 <b_jonas> yeah, they probably told me about earlier, I just didn't listen
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11:21:32 <fungot> int-e: ' s what i'm doing harrassing boston's accent...
11:23:08 <int-e> It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it.
11:25:23 <int-e> Ooh, crement dataflow is rather annoying.
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11:30:18 <b_jonas> int-e: the PhD defense meeting of a friend is today afternoon
11:30:40 <shachaf> Maybe you can make it for the snake fight.
11:30:51 <b_jonas> it probably appeared in like four previous emails about various presentations in the near future, but there's so many of them that I don't usually pay attention
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11:42:39 <int-e> ais523 zzo38: Anyway, one can copy data to several target cells, so it can be used in different branches of a program. So a Minsky machine is indeed within reach. Untested sketch for copying a value to two cells: http://sprunge.us/YHMO
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12:55:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53490&oldid=53489 * Int-e * (+2848) /* Computational class */ Add Minsky machine construction.
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13:24:04 <int-e> ais523 zzo38: Oh a colleague came up with another cute design for working in Crement: One can make variables out of a D instruction followed by a J instruction; to read such a variable, one can store a target address in the D instruction, and a return address in the J instruction, then jump to the variable.
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16:48:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Headache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53491&oldid=53481 * LucasMW * (+60)
16:49:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Headache]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53492&oldid=53491 * LucasMW * (+64)
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17:19:20 <zzo38> int-e: I had the same idea myself actually (the second one)
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19:13:55 <zseri> I built a c++ extension builder for XTW written in XTW using XTW extensions (plugins)
19:17:37 <zseri> https://github.com/zserik/zxtw/blob/master/examples/plgmaker.xtw
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19:40:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53493&oldid=53485 * Spk44 * (+296) /* Introductions */
19:44:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Spk44]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53494 * Spk44 * (+103) spk44's user page
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19:58:40 <int-e> bah, why can't software just work
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20:07:45 <int-e> Hmm, of course half of the time it's a configuration problem. Shame on me.
20:10:24 <int-e> whoever thought that this was a good idea? text/html; /usr/bin/xdg-open %s ; copiousoutput
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20:12:13 <int-e> "This flag [copiousoutput] should be given whenever the interpreter is capable of producing more than a few lines of output on stdout, and does no interaction with the user." -- well, I expect that under most circumstances there is user interaction. (This is Arch linux.)
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20:37:03 * int-e shifts most of the blame to https://pagure.io/mailcap/c/2b586d3c789f5f4645fdd1aab546874a7419810b
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21:12:04 <int-e> Ah, I solved the signal divider before I learned to use JRO. Now it's 20 instructions in 5 blocks instead of 28 in 6. :)
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22:17:41 <int-e> \oren\: a binary division scheme got me down to 3009 cycles; my best is 2594 now with special-casing 1.
22:17:52 <int-e> (and a whopping 61 instructions)
22:21:13 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sd2594.png
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22:54:50 <fungot> boily: uhmm okay. i'm not implementing my own language, i had a long lecture about it like that, when called, acts as if the attacker can know the exact nature of it.
22:55:27 <boily> fungot: right you aren't... totally believable. and you aren't going to make it public on nostril-lang.org or something.
22:55:27 <fungot> boily: don't you have to pop port and addr even when they're unused?
22:55:46 <boily> fungot: they're unused, and the GC's going to obliterate them anyway.
22:55:46 <fungot> boily: right, but in the society, not the keyboard shortcuts if they don't reply " you are a poet. do you do
22:56:15 <boily> fungot: I haven't potetry-ed in a long time, even if I use keyboard shortcuts.
22:56:15 <fungot> boily: i assume i need another fnord. a fnord fnord
22:56:32 <boily> fungot: a fnord is the word, fnord fnord fnord ♪
22:57:24 <fungot> brandonson: what's an algorithm that you can't express your algorithms easily in assembly language you need to
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02:30:03 <fizzie> Heh, someone's crawler ("DomainCrawler/3.0") just crawled through the staging.esolangs.org copy of the wiki, apparently because someone else had a leftover domain name pointing at the IP.
02:32:01 <fizzie> (The domain the crawler used was <something>.co.uk, and there's a <something>.com pointing at a different server hosted on the same provider, so I'm guessing they only remembered to update the first one.)
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07:40:13 <zzo38> Can we make up some kind of quantum teleportation in GURPS?
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14:50:04 <int-e> fungot: what do you know about unaffiliated clocks?
14:50:04 <fungot> int-e: oh, i'll leave...
14:50:14 <fungot> int-e: and static typing is how i learned to debug zetalisp manual and its introspection capabilities were very smalltalk-like. not continuations as such but instead calculated like that
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15:39:07 <fizzie> Hmm. The last person to make an account tried twice to edit [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]], but both attempts were blocked by the filter.
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15:44:11 <fizzie> Apparently because they kept trying to remove one of the two empty lines after the <!-- New introductions ... --> comment.
15:46:50 <int-e> (hmm, could the editor do such a thing automatically?)
15:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53495&oldid=53493 * Fizzie * (+61) Warn about deleting empty lines in the instructions.
15:48:24 <fizzie> Well, it didn't do it automatically to me, at least.
15:49:39 <fizzie> Maybe I should just remove the line they tried to remove anyway, I don't think two empty lines make the source any more readable than one.
15:50:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53496&oldid=53495 * Fizzie * (-1) Remove a superfluous empty line.
15:50:47 <quintopia> don't you think it's time for a new featured language?
15:51:33 <Taneb> "Hello, world!" is a quine in HQ9+
15:52:05 <LKoen> I don't know. brainfuck has only been there four years.
15:52:25 <fizzie> Has it been four years already? Sounds dubious.
15:52:30 <quintopia> i miss the days where it actually changed on occasion
15:52:50 <Taneb> I think Underload should be the next featured language
15:53:28 <quintopia> I don't care what the next is, as long as it isn't a brainfuck derivative :P
15:54:00 <fizzie> It's proposed in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates and hasn't been featured yet, and the article's pretty comprehensive, so I'd be happy with featuring Underload.
15:55:31 <fizzie> Does someone want to add an {{infobox proglang ...}} for Underload? ;)
15:56:15 <fizzie> I'd also like to have Befunge as the featured language at some point, but the article is not super great.
15:56:51 <fizzie> By the way, I'll be migrating the wiki over to a new server probably this Sunday, so expect maybe an hour or two of being locked in matrix of soli.. I mean, in read-only mode.
15:57:52 <int-e> (I've moved that thing 3 times already.)
15:58:02 <int-e> (But I think a wiki is more... uhm... interesting.)
15:59:02 <quintopia> is it a """""functional""""" language?
15:59:17 <quintopia> or does that need more scare quotes?
15:59:25 <fizzie> int-e: I wrote down a cheat sheet for setting up the "CaC is down again" backup copy, so it's not too painful any more. It's pretty close to restoring from backups, after all.
16:00:31 <fizzie> (It's basically "undump the mysql database, rsync and chmod the image upload folders, run a maintenance PHP script to regenerate the file cache".)
16:01:05 <Taneb> quintopia: a swear word in Latin
16:01:12 <fizzie> The previous hosting company, Cloud At Cost.
16:01:19 <fizzie> (At the cost of your sanity.)
16:02:05 <quintopia> is there a file extension for underload programs?
16:03:03 <fizzie> The test files for fungot's Underload interpreter are .ul files.
16:03:04 <fungot> fizzie: that i definitely need to write up a bool debugger so it's easier for beginners to get over the initial, for the practice and associated ill effects of sword swallowing. design: letters sent to sword swallowers requesting information on technique and complications. setting: membership lists of the form
16:03:14 <fizzie> I don't know how canonical that is, or if I just named 'em like that myself.
16:04:17 <quintopia> it's canonical until ais523 says otherwise
16:04:35 <fizzie> http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric.php?f=underload uses it.
16:06:26 <fizzie> (In fact, 99.ul from there is one of the test files. The other is burden.ul, which I think is a test suite elliott wrote.)
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16:07:24 <quintopia> are there any languages that underload influenced
16:10:16 <Taneb> quintopia: it definitely influenced Fueue
16:11:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53497&oldid=51408 * Quintopia * (+309) infobox
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16:12:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53498&oldid=53497 * Quintopia * (+11) fueue
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16:15:37 <quintopia> i think the befunge article isn't that great because everyone's hoping cpressey will do it...
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16:18:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53499&oldid=53498 * Quintopia * (-184) remove dead link
16:19:16 <quintopia> the underload article mentions a reference interpreter, but at no point does it ever say "this link here goes to the reference implementation"
16:35:56 <quintopia> i feel like we, as a community, need to come together on names for the new programming paradigms we have invented. what is the paradigm for muriel?
16:38:58 <quintopia> a bit imprecise. it doesn't have to quine itself. it can replace itself with a different program at any time.
16:39:15 <Taneb> Succession-oriented
16:39:53 <quintopia> what is the paradigm for Resplicate?
16:41:21 <Taneb> I haven't seen ResPlicate before
16:42:08 <Taneb> It's almost a tag machine
16:46:46 <quintopia> except the rules are not separate from the string being rewritten. but i would agree it is in the same order if not the same family
16:52:05 <b_jonas> quintopia: is that the paradigm it shares with Slashes and Fuun DNA?
16:52:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun DNA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53500&oldid=46724 * B jonas * (+48)
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17:01:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun RNA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53501&oldid=46725 * B jonas * (+26)
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17:16:13 <quintopia> b_jonas: /// is string-rewriting paradigm
17:22:41 <b_jonas> quintopia: yes, but it's also one where you can only execute each statement in the source code once, and you have to explicitly modify the source code to add more lines if you want to loop
17:23:05 <b_jonas> or am I confusing that with another esolang?
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17:24:17 <Vorpal> quintopia: what about the paradigm of befunge-98?
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17:55:50 <quintopia> Vorpal: is it not imperative? i thought all the fungeoids were
17:58:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53502 * Quintopia * (+4656) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Bauberqueue |paradigms=Post-like |author=[[User:Quintopia]] |year=[[:Category:2017|2017]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimp..."
18:06:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue/bauberqueue.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53503 * Quintopia * (+3320) Created page with "Reference implementation for [[Bauberqueue]] in Python. import sys from collections import defaultdict def load(filename): try: listing = defaultdict(list..."
18:07:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53504&oldid=53429 * Quintopia * (+18) bauberqueue
18:08:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Quintopia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53505&oldid=50831 * Quintopia * (+102) bauberqueue
18:10:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53506&oldid=53283 * Quintopia * (+100) bauberqueue
18:11:28 <choco_chuck> does anyone have any resources for actually programming a tag or post system?
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19:13:45 <quintopia> choco_chuck: the wikipedia article on tag systems is pretty decent
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19:19:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53507&oldid=53502 * Quintopia * (-7) golf examples, add category
19:34:44 <\oren\> TIL apparently C89 doesn't support signed zeros
19:42:55 <zzo38> I thought whether it support signed integer zeros is a feature of the computer and not of the programming language. For floating numbers there is signed zeros I think, though; but maybe that too is only by the feature of the computer and not of the programming language, I don't know
19:45:36 <\oren\> supposedly in C89 there isn't support for floating point signed zero
19:46:46 <zzo38> But I thought it is depending on the floating point format used in the computer that the program is for.
19:50:23 <fizzie> What does "support" mean here? C89 has the same model for floating-point types, which is a sign-magnitude one. (C89 footnote 8 even says: "This model precludes floating-point representations other than sign-magnitude.")
19:55:16 <fizzie> I guess it might mean there isn't necessarily any way of distinguishing between negative and positive zero, since they compare equal, and C89 <math.h> doesn't have any functions for getting the sign of a floating-point value.
19:58:39 <fizzie> Though looks like even C11 allows for a floating point representation that doesn't differentiate them. (C11 5.2.4.2.2p4: "An implementation may give zero -- a sign or may leave [it] unsigned. Wherever such values are unsigned, any requirement -- to retrieve the sign shall produce an unspecified sign, and any requirement to set the string shall be ignored.")
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20:19:46 <wob_jonas> If, for esoteric purposes, I write numbers in radix 5 (rather than 10 or 16), what would you call that? quinquenary, quinary, quintimal, pantamal?
20:20:45 <wob_jonas> \oren\: for your font, can I request the character "兩" (which is related to "両")?
20:21:13 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it's another character that's rare in Japanese, but more common in Chinese
20:21:32 <fizzie> Quinary is I think the normal one.
20:21:45 <fizzie> "Quinary (base-5 or pental[1][2][3])", says Wikipedia.
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20:49:53 <choco_chuck> quintopia: thanks but I've read that and am still not sure how to go about programming it
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20:56:22 * int-e idly wonders whether thumbs gets a lot of ups and downs.
20:58:53 <wob_jonas> So a settee is the same as a couch. English has too many words, again.
20:59:52 <int-e> newspeak is a terrible idea
21:00:27 <HackEgo> wise:Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
21:08:33 <int-e> wob_jonas: Actually I have more of a problem with the fact that english has too few words. A coach trains, but a train coach doesn't.
21:09:50 <wob_jonas> int-e: it has too many words, but also misses words for a few things. the latter isn't such a big problem, someone popular can spread new terminology when there's a need.
21:09:54 <int-e> (but they're both useful for moving people forward :-P)
21:10:45 <wob_jonas> I'd like a general word for people whose job is to talk with customers of the business directly (as opposed to only talking with co-workers or talking with nobody).
21:11:26 <zzo38> O, it is the "customer-speecher", I suppose, then.
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21:17:20 <int-e> (or support slave)
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21:37:16 <quintopia> wob_jonas: macmillan dictionary defines the adjective "customer-facing". The associated jobs are "customer-facing roles".
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21:46:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MISC-x86]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53508&oldid=20089 * B jonas * (+55)
21:48:20 <lambdabot> *** "settee" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:48:20 <lambdabot> n 1: a long wooden bench with a back [syn: {settle}, {settee}]
21:48:38 <fizzie> That doesn't sound entirely equivalent.
21:49:09 <Taneb> ... I always called the larger sofa in my parents' living room the settee
21:49:25 <Taneb> English is a lie, words lack intrinsic meaning
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22:04:57 <int-e> fortunately people don't operate for long in a vacuum so there'll always be context
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23:43:14 <moony> helloily the invisible
23:44:20 <boily> itym “helloily the eating”.
23:45:38 <moony> boily, i called you invisible because i missed your join message.
23:47:00 <boily> visibility is orthogonal to nutrition.
23:47:40 <quintopia> how many aubergine derivatives do i need to make before there is a Category:Aubergine derivatives?
23:48:16 <boily> I think we can rightfully categorize it now.
23:49:53 <boily> besides, aubergines derivatives are, like, the most bestest :D
23:59:50 <boily> I cook a mean yu xiang aubergine.
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00:01:09 <moony> what the heck is a aubergie
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01:02:12 <oerjan> argh is tunes not loading
01:02:38 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe something's happened that i'm not supposed to know )
01:03:26 <lambdabot> ENVA 060050Z 24011KT 9999 FEW012 BKN017 02/M01 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 26015KT
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01:11:02 <boily> int-e: IEUAREGHIOERGHIGOHIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
01:11:24 <HackEgo> ysaclist (69): boily shachaf
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01:18:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 060100Z 15016KT 15SM -RA SCT045 OVC067 09/08 A2965 RMK SC3AC5 SLP043
01:18:31 <fizzie> oerjan: There was a new user who couldn't manage to get past the "introduce yourself" filter, is at least one thing that happened.
01:19:06 <fizzie> oerjan: (They tried twice, but on both occasions their introductions page edit attempted to remove an empty line, which isn't allowed.)
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01:33:14 <zzo38> Why doesn't the GURPS rules mention how many points a fear of left handed plumbers is worth? (It does mention such a fear, but doesn't tell you how many points)
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01:55:33 <zzo38> Are you going to add a {{#precomment}} command into the wiki to hide text that comes before this command? Mainly it is in case it is a comment introducer for some other programming language (such as C or JavaScript) that you want to not display, so that the program will still work if downloaded.
01:57:28 <zzo38> The other command to add would be {{#beginraw}} command, which causes it to stop parsing all further commands, treating the entire rest of the page as raw text, which is displayed as fix pitch preformatted text.
01:58:20 <zzo38> (While you can add a space in front, you might not want all of the lines to have a space.)
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02:51:49 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> int-e: Do you like this? <int-e> It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it.
02:51:51 <HackEgo> 1316) <shachaf> int-e: Do you like this? <int-e> It depends on the context. In the context of "Do you like _?", I hate it.
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03:08:13 <quintopia> zzo38: the <nowiki> tag sounds a lot like your {{#beginraw}}. what is the difference?
03:08:31 <quintopia> i guess you'd have to do <nowiki><pre> to get preformatted text
03:16:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53509&oldid=53499 * Oerjan * (+283) Rescue dead links
03:17:57 <oerjan> quintopia: please use the {{deadlink}} template so someone else can attempt to rescue links twh
03:18:39 <oerjan> just put a {{deadlink}} after the link
03:18:53 <oerjan> alternatively, you can try to search on wayback yourself first
03:19:28 <oerjan> well mostly the surrounding info in this case, since the link actually _was_ somewhere else on the page
03:20:12 <oerjan> (in a less convenient form.)
03:20:15 <quintopia> the surrounding info seemed very unimportant
03:22:24 <oerjan> (the argument that beats all reason)
03:24:20 <oerjan> ok, but "remove dead link" is the wrong reason for removing it (in particulr, making me do all the work to try to rescue it)
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03:51:25 <moony> We need to port brainfuck to the ethereum blockchain
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04:03:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53510&oldid=53507 * Quintopia * (+353) add quine
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04:08:21 <zzo38> quintopia: The difference is that there is no command to end it.
04:18:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53511&oldid=53510 * Quintopia * (-14) golf quine
04:20:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53512&oldid=53476 * Quintopia * (+17) influenced bauberqueue
04:20:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53513&oldid=52922 * Quintopia * (+15) influenced bauberqueue
04:22:29 <quintopia> zzo38: so that none of the other wiki formatting after it appears at all? no footer or anything? that doesn't seem good...
04:24:58 <zzo38> No, I don't mean that
04:25:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53514&oldid=53513 * Quintopia * (+3) paradigm
04:25:38 <zzo38> I mean that the rest of the text you have entered is raw and preformatted; only EOF marks the end of that, and then the wiki footer and stuff appears
04:32:34 <quintopia> oh i think <nowiki> does the same thing if you just omit the </nowiki> tag.
04:37:27 <zzo38> Maybe, but then what if the text you want includes the text "</nowiki>"? Then it won't work. Fossil Wiki supports stuff such as <verbatim-1> so that you can specify a number so that you can include whatever text you want. (Fossil also supports defining a wiki page as plain, so it supports no special commands at all.)
04:48:51 <Sgeo_> https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.01815
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05:44:39 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm definitely also using .ul for underload files.
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06:36:17 <\oren\> 兩? hmm, those inner things are "enter" not "person"...
06:36:51 <\oren\> I'll have to be careful drawring them
06:43:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53515&oldid=53511 * Quintopia * (-8) Actually, it's a true quine
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09:40:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: re a precommend command, instead of that, on http://perlmonks.org we have <code>...</code> pseudo-html tags to mark code, which has both the effect that it takes everything inside it literally, and that there's an easy way to download just the code from a node as plain text
09:41:25 <b_jonas> The drawback is that you can only put code encoded as cp1252 in it, because that's the native encoding the source code of nodes is written in, non-cp1252 characters have to be ampersand-encoded, but ampersands aren't special inside code tags.
09:42:50 <b_jonas> \oren\: "careful drawing them" => well yes, and you're a bit cramped for space, but it should still fit in your 16x16 grid I think
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09:52:25 <b_jonas> `slashlearn greater/A greater than sign instructs the shell to send the output of the command to a file. Not very mnemonic, but a grater is the closest thing to a file that ASCII has.
09:52:26 <HackEgo> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
09:52:31 <b_jonas> `slashlearn greater//A greater than sign instructs the shell to send the output of the command to a file. Not very mnemonic, but a grater is the closest thing to a file that ASCII has.
09:52:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'greater': A greater than sign instructs the shell to send the output of the command to a file. Not very mnemonic, but a grater is the closest thing to a file that ASCII has.
09:53:04 <int-e> @tell boily int-e: IEUAREGHIOERGHIGOHIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! <-- please wait at least 5 minutes before panicking, because lambdabot takes a while to get here after rejoining, and it's set up to do that automatically.
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10:15:15 <shachaf> happy independence day hth
10:29:23 <fizzie> 100 years of Finlandery.
10:32:28 <fizzie> They're lighting up a lot of places around the world with blue-white lights, but as far as I can tell nothing here in London. :/
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10:33:14 <fizzie> (San Francisco City Hall, though.)
10:45:01 <shachaf> Hmm, anywhere in Berkeley?
10:48:05 <fizzie> Maybe not. I haven't found a proper exhaustive list, just two separate news articles.
10:49:38 <shachaf> I guess I'll be going to SF tomorrow.
10:59:59 <shachaf> @tell boily ptlist should remind you to turn on captions
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11:00:14 <shachaf> @tell boily it's scow when you watch a whole pt and then realize you had captions off
11:06:00 <fizzie> "San Francisco, California, will see a Finnish flag flying over its City Hall on Wednesday and the building's facade illuminated blue and white from 4:15 PM local time until midnight." https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finlands_blue__white_around_the_world_for_centennial_celebrations/9961343
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11:50:22 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 57m 18s ago: int-e: IEUAREGHIOERGHIGOHIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! <-- please wait at least 5 minutes before panicking, because lambdabot takes a while to get
11:50:23 <lambdabot> here after rejoining, and it's set up to do that automatically.
11:50:23 <lambdabot> shachaf said 50m 23s ago: ptlist should remind you to turn on captions
11:50:23 <lambdabot> shachaf said 50m 8s ago: it's scow when you watch a whole pt and then realize you had captions off
11:51:09 <boily> b_jonas: Primitive Technology.
11:51:30 <boily> @tell int-e int-ello. I like to recklessly holler ^^
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12:12:39 <int-e> `dontaskdonttelllist
12:12:40 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia myname int-e
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12:41:57 <fizzie> I keep getting spam with the subject line "Reverse-Engineering the ZTE ZXDSL 931WIIA Firmware" (because I once wrote a page about that), and every time for ten seconds or so I think it might be a non-spam email for once.
12:46:49 <int-e> good job, spammers, well done, keep up the good work
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14:52:44 <fizzie> Weird. https://raw.githubusercontent.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/master/gcc/po/fi.po has the translation "säiekohtaista muistia ei tueta tälle kohteelle" (thread-local storage not supported for this target) for 67 different messages, none of which have anything to do with TLS.
14:53:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: wow. report a bug.
14:55:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: also, I've had so many bad experiences with hungarian localized software that I simply don't use hungarian localization whenever possible
14:55:18 <fizzie> I haven't managed to coax any Finnish messages out of my GCC installation.
14:55:29 <fizzie> I was just checking these to see if they translated the 'long long long' joke.
14:56:19 <fizzie> Maybe I have to install 'gcc-7-locales' to get them.
14:57:00 <b_jonas> I also try to avoid mirrors in Hungary by the way, and occasionally have to override these automatic geographic mirror choosers for that
14:58:46 <Taneb> What's the long long long joke?
15:01:20 <b_jonas> the whole "long long" thing is dangerous, because very old compilers just silently interpret it as "long", which isn't just a stupid interpretation in first place
15:01:42 <b_jonas> that syntax shouldn't have been used in first place
15:02:01 <b_jonas> nor "ll" as a modifier in printf for similar reasons
15:10:32 <fizzie> Taneb: If you try to use 'long long long' as a type, the error message is "‘long long long’ is too long for GCC".
15:11:15 <fizzie> (Or "”long long long” on liian pitkä GCC:lle", so yes, they did translate it, though it loses a bit in translation for not repeating "long".)
15:13:12 <b_jonas> do they have a custom message for any of "short long", "long short", "short short", "long char", "short wchar_t", "signed signed", "signed unsigned", "unsigned signed", "unsigned unsigned", "signed wchar_t", "unsigned wchar_t", "long bool", "signed bool", "unsigned bool" etc?
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15:14:05 <fizzie> Not as far as I know. Or, rather, they have messages, but they're very businesslike. "error: both ‘signed’ and ‘unsigned’ in declaration specifiers" and so on.
15:14:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, so no custom stuff
15:14:50 <fizzie> Also if you do 'long long long long x', you get "'long long long' is too long" twice, possibly due to error recovery.
15:15:42 <fizzie> For some reason, if I try some of those operations where they have the nonsense string in the fi.po file, it just uses the English text without a translation. Wonder what that's all about.
15:17:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe that bug is newer than your gcc?
15:20:37 <fizzie> I guess that's possible. Or maybe they're somehow disabled, but I don't know how to read the file syntax. (Also the text "ehtolausekkeessa ei-lvalue-taulukko" (non-lvalue array in a conditional expression) appears for 22 unrelated messages, like "Enable loop distribution on trees." and "Enable loop vectorization on trees.")
15:22:27 <fizzie> github's GCC mirror can't show blame or log for the file (it's too long to show, and the commit history takes "too long to generate"), so I can't tell if it's a recent issue or not. Don't feel like cloning GCC. Maybe I'll come back to this later.
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16:19:50 <int-e> "hg remove -A", why not have that as an option for hg ci? (I've found -A but I only want the removal part.)
16:26:14 <zzo38> Do you have a example Fuun RNA program? I tried writing a program to interpret the Fuun DNA program in order to achieve the RNA, but it doesn't work after the first step, somehow.
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19:25:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53516&oldid=53515 * Quintopia * (-41) golf quine
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21:38:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: a lot of people participated in that ICFP and many of them probably have put an interpreter available online, so you could use one of those.
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21:43:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sadly the websites of most old icfp contests are badly maintained, including http://save-endo.cs.uu.nl/ , so you'll have to find individual team's writeups elsewhere
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22:22:02 <wob_jonas> Is there a library structure generic that is just a structure made of a key and a value part, but comparing and hashing it looks only at the key part?
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23:13:28 <fungot> boily: why does smalltalk have authority on the topic of the channel on all of this so called " right track". didn't know that...)
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23:20:07 <HackEgo> olist 1107: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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00:11:16 <HackEgo> 1/1:pdf//PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format. \ vorpal//Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones. \ twoducks//TwoDucks programming language was invented in 2023. \ til//TIL that TIL means Today I Learned \ hexham//Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
00:11:48 <HackEgo> 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import. \ 8342:2016-06-05 <oerjän> learn Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones.
00:12:00 <shachaf> `` hg cat -r 0 wisdom/vorpal
00:12:01 <HackEgo> Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
00:13:35 <moony> Anyone want to try and port Brainfuck to Ethereum?
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00:21:53 <garit> moony: its so absurd that almost starts to makes sense again =))
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01:41:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53517&oldid=53459 * Schozi * (+562) /* Based on dimensions */
01:50:49 <boily> `slwd hexham//s/$/./
01:50:52 <HackEgo> hexham//Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico.
02:04:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53518&oldid=53512 * Boily * (+36)
02:05:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Aubergine derivatives]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53519 * Boily * (+42) Created page with "Derivatives of the [[Aubergine]] language."
02:05:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53520&oldid=46047 * Boily * (+35)
02:06:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53521&oldid=45717 * Boily * (+36)
02:06:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Silberjoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53522&oldid=51838 * Boily * (+35)
02:07:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bauberqueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53523&oldid=53516 * Boily * (+36)
02:15:00 <boily> is a language with derivatives a derivative of itself?
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02:56:45 <zzo38> I managed to get the self check screen to display, although step 21 fails, and steps 11 and 12 are wrong
02:59:59 <zzo38> (Step 21 might be failing due to a EAGAIN error, though)
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03:39:46 <zzo38> I think I now got the Fuun RNA implementation correct.
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04:05:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReverseFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53524&oldid=8406 * Challenger5 * (+35)
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05:00:30 <HackEgo> Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
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06:53:13 <shachaf> oerjan: some wisdom: https://twitter.com/rygorous/status/938661397738561537
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10:21:38 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> English is a lie, words lack intrinsic meaning <int-e> fortunately people don't operate for long in a vacuum so there'll always be context
10:21:42 <HackEgo> 1317) <Taneb> English is a lie, words lack intrinsic meaning <int-e> fortunately people don't operate for long in a vacuum so there'll always be context
10:24:48 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Dec 7 11:24:48 2017
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10:34:36 <oerjan> did you know your nick has no letters in common with "good morning"
10:38:25 <Taneb> A commutative monoid is just a monoid in the category of monoids
10:40:07 <shachaf> oerjan: i was not aware of that thx tdh hug hand
10:40:43 <Taneb> shachaf: Wikipedia says so, but on the other hand anyone can edit it
10:40:52 <Taneb> Apparently it follows from the Eckmann-Hilton theorem
10:41:43 <shachaf> I think I've seen this one before.
10:41:53 <shachaf> But I'd completely forgotten about it.
10:42:16 <shachaf> Well, nearly completely forgotten. Maybe I have completely forgotten about it, but then I wouldn't know about seeing it before.
10:46:44 <shachaf> Do you know about exterior derivatives and exterior algebras and things?
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10:50:24 <oerjan> even boily doesn't follow the Esolang:Policy :(
10:53:45 <Taneb> shachaf: I do not!
10:53:54 <Taneb> My knowlege of algebra is lacking a great deal
10:54:02 <Taneb> Certainly a great deal more than I'd like
10:56:48 <HackEgo> commutative monoid? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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15:54:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53525&oldid=52070 * Keymaker * (+448) Links gone dead?
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16:47:55 <b_jonas> also, didn't MaRo specifically deny this in advance?
17:20:34 <zzo38> Deny what is advance?
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17:43:23 <b_jonas> nope, turns out he didn't deny it
17:43:39 <b_jonas> didn't deny https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/unstable-variants-2017-12-06 in https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/un-ending-saga-part-1-2017-11-06
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20:15:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53526&oldid=53525 * Oerjan * (+163) /* All links gone dead */ It's alive!
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04:26:36 <zzo38> Are there any kind of unusual rules you know of about point calculation of point-based role-playing systems, other than the rules used in GURPS and BESM 3? (My point calculator program supports both of these things, as well as some other custom rules.)
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05:17:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53527&oldid=46390 * Quintopia * (+56) Fix some typos
05:26:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53528&oldid=53518 * Quintopia * (-2) This is how the Brainfuck page does it
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05:51:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53529&oldid=53224 * Quintopia * (+278) Add bauberqueue and purple quine, move the aubergine quine to the cheating section
05:53:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53530&oldid=53529 * Quintopia * (-33) Change aubergine quine to easy to understand golfed version
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10:11:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: by point calculatoin, do you mean calculation of XP you gain? or some other points?
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10:51:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53531&oldid=53496 * YuvalM * (+143)
10:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53532&oldid=51903 * YuvalM * (+198) /* z = x or y (boolean, logical) */
10:57:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53533&oldid=53532 * YuvalM * (-1) /* z = x or y (boolean, logical) */
11:13:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53534&oldid=53533 * YuvalM * (+280)
11:15:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53535&oldid=53534 * YuvalM * (+14)
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11:45:39 <mroman> I made a chess variant (http://mroman.ch/b/chess.html). Now I guess I need to program an AI for it.
11:49:11 <mroman> But there are already 57101117117774389051392000000 possible placements in the placement phase.
11:53:33 <mroman> more like 5.139100540599694e28
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12:02:23 <boily> mrelloman! classic AI with tree pruning and heuristics and stuff?
12:04:48 <b_jonas> wtf. so apparently the northern third of Sweden is either not a completely empty wasteland with only elks and reindeers and reindeer hunters living there, or else some supervillain wants us to think that it isn't and get people to travel there so they can capture them
12:05:08 <b_jonas> as in, someone is organizing a conference there: http://knuth80.elfbrink.se/
12:05:37 <b_jonas> seriously, in actual northern Sweden, not just, like, the north part of the southern half of sweden
12:05:56 <b_jonas> there aren't even roads or other infrastructure there, I think
12:06:02 <b_jonas> how would people even go there?
12:09:33 <mroman> boily: that's probably the best to start with, yes.
12:10:01 <mroman> although the easiest thing to start off would be something that makes random moves but always kills if it can.
12:10:12 <mroman> (and a completely random placement :D)
12:11:06 <mroman> although you gotta be careful with that because you can actually loose the game during the placement phase already if your king is in a bad spot after the placement
12:11:13 <mroman> you migth not be able to make a first move
12:12:46 <mroman> Also I'm training an ANN right now to recognize faces in pictures resampled to 12x12
12:14:38 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/12x12.png <- like such
12:15:31 <mroman> works surprisingly well.
12:15:36 <b_jonas> mroman: can it recognize Kappa?
12:16:23 <mroman> right now it has a (sensitivity, specificity) of (~0.8, ~0.8)
12:18:08 <boily> b_jellonas. cucumber kappa?
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12:24:01 <b_jonas> mroman: Kappa is one of the more used special emoticon memes on twitch.tv , the video game streaming website
12:25:05 <fizzie> b_jonas: I've driven through (and I think stayed overnight in?) Kiruna, which is significantly more northern Sweden, and can confirm there were roads.
12:27:04 <fizzie> (If you're driving from Finland to Norway and don't take the ferry, the natural route is Kemi-Kiruna-Narvik, mostly on the E10.)
12:27:04 <b_jonas> that's definitely more to the north than I've been to
12:28:09 <fizzie> One of my coworkers just came back from Tromsø, which is probably more northern than I've ever been.
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12:32:55 <fizzie> It's kind of funny, if you zoom in to the Norway/Sweden border, the Google Maps seems to get significantly more high-res on the Norway side: https://goo.gl/maps/z9ufZEtArXD2
12:33:19 <fizzie> (At least at that particular spot.)
12:35:15 <mroman> I hate it when people do classification stuff and report accuracy.
12:35:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: that usually happens when they have photos made from airplane on one side, but only satellite photos on the other side
12:37:12 <b_jonas> These days they also have crazy 3D reconstructed images of some parts.
12:37:49 <b_jonas> Even 3d images of individual trees.
12:38:44 <mroman> train corporations use scanning of trees and shit to determine which trees are in danger of falling on the rails
12:38:56 <mroman> that's also quite crazy.
12:40:39 <b_jonas> as for trains, what's quite crazy to me is the metro tunnels in Stockholm. have you seen them? they are just dug out with explosives and left like that, with no concrete rings supporting the walls anywhere
12:41:11 <b_jonas> it's quite an amazing contrast to the tunnels here, which have concrete walls everywhere, to isolate the tunnel from the ground around and keep the water and ground out
12:41:50 <b_jonas> of course, Sweden pays for this with the downside that they don't have soil for agriculture, which is quite a high price to pay for those few railway tunnels
12:43:44 <b_jonas> also, bridges. they have a ton of water channels with medium length bridges over it. and sometimes there's two parallel bridges over water, one above the other, the railway on the bottom bridge and road on the top bridge.
12:43:52 <b_jonas> that's impossible here, because the terrain is just too flat
12:44:07 <b_jonas> but there, they have steep shores within the city and small canals
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12:52:36 <mroman> People should use sensitivity, specificity and confidence to rate their classification performance even if you have more than two classes.
13:28:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ave * New user account
13:29:55 <fizzie> b_jonas: One of my coworkers moved to the US to start a startup on aerial/satellite photo analysis, https://tensorflight.io/
13:31:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53536&oldid=53531 * Ave * (+241)
13:31:55 <fizzie> Looks like they've since pivoted to be about property inspections for insurance-related matters. It was something more generic last I looked.
14:14:40 <mroman> fizzie: at least it has a useless animation that lags browsers and wastes energy on their website :D
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14:41:27 <fizzie> mroman: Yeah, that's new too. :)
14:51:02 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/mandel.html
14:51:07 <mroman> if u like laggy webpages
14:52:27 <mroman> the newest firefox really sucks at rendering it.
14:52:31 <mroman> the older versions were much faster
14:53:56 <Taneb> I suspect that browser designers weren't optimizing to that particular use case
15:04:07 <mroman> but now I get complaint from customers being unable to use my main business e-commerce e-shop e-website due to the new firefox.
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15:05:41 <Taneb> That sounds e-awful
15:05:46 <Taneb> I'm so e-sorry for you
15:06:09 <mroman> well... I gotta math-jaxify my pseudo-paper now.
15:11:01 <mroman> can pandoc convert to mathjax?
15:11:44 <Taneb> I think so? Not sure though
15:13:25 <mroman> hopefully fixable with some CSS.
15:16:21 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/guides/sensspec.html
15:19:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alice]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53537 * Martin Ender * (+712) Create page... one day I might convert the language spec from Markdown to MediaWiki if I can be bothered...
15:21:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Martin Ender]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53538&oldid=47181 * Martin Ender * (+158)
15:23:52 <mroman> ah. lil borders around the tables and it looks much better.
15:25:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alice]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53539&oldid=53537 * Martin Ender * (-78) whoops
15:27:08 <mroman> If you like sums, this is for you :D
15:27:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53540&oldid=46718 * Martin Ender * (+102) catching up with my name change
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15:28:09 <mroman> I wrote that as a stackoverflow answer.
15:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53541&oldid=53540 * Martin Ender * (-1) /* External resources */
15:28:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alice]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53542&oldid=53539 * Martin Ender * (-1) /* External Resources */
15:29:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53543&oldid=44839 * Martin Ender * (+63) catching up with my name change
15:29:31 <mroman> probably a lot of spelling errors in there still
15:32:05 <Taneb> "this aren't all true negatives" I think should be "these aren't all the true negatives"
15:32:39 <mroman> which section is that?
15:32:56 <Taneb> N-Ary Classification?
15:33:09 <Taneb> In Sensitivity and Specifiticity
15:33:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53544&oldid=47245 * Martin Ender * (+66) catching up with my name change
15:33:38 <mroman> "all the true negatives"
15:34:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brian & Chuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53545&oldid=46558 * Martin Ender * (+69) catching up with my name change
15:34:58 <Taneb> What is your first language, ooi?
15:35:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack Cats]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53546&oldid=47183 * Martin Ender * (+70) catching up with my name change
15:35:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53547&oldid=53541 * Martin Ender * (+0) /* External resources */
15:35:34 <mroman> The language of the norths.
15:35:38 <mroman> although it's south from you probably
15:35:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53548&oldid=53543 * Martin Ender * (+0) /* External resources */
15:36:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alice]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53549&oldid=53542 * Martin Ender * (+0) /* External Resources */
15:36:21 <Taneb> I'm currently living in what I think is "south" and it's still further north than most of Germany
15:36:32 <Taneb> Although not as much Germany as I thought
15:37:09 <Taneb> Roughly the same latitude as Brunswick?
15:37:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53550&oldid=53504 * Martin Ender * (+12) /* A */ add Alice
15:38:47 <Taneb> British, I'm from the old esoteric homeland of Hexham and currently in Cambridge
15:40:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53551&oldid=53530 * Martin Ender * (+314) /* Real Quines */ add Alice
15:49:15 <mroman> *reinterpret_cast<private_member_type*>(reinterpret_cast<char*>(&my_c.public_member) + sizeof(my_c.public_member)) = 0xDEFACED
15:50:42 <zseri> but delphi is worse
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17:22:34 <zzo38> b_jonas: I mean calculations of point totals of all of the traits based on any modifiers and so on you add on to them, how to calculate them based on that
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18:21:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 081750Z 27004KT 8000 -RASN SCT007 SCT020 BKN060 01/00 Q1011 R08/29//95 NOSIG
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19:46:03 <oerjan> (bit silly, but suggested in a global notice)
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20:01:24 <oerjan> test: [wiki] [[Alice]] N
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20:12:16 <oerjan> test: <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]]
20:12:51 <oerjan> test: <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]]
20:13:45 <oerjan> for some reason those show up different in the logs...
20:29:22 <int-e> grrrr, is there a replacement for "Open in Browser" that works with FF 57
20:29:59 <int-e> oh stupid question
20:31:05 <oerjan> i think it's an IE problem caused by some strange characters mroman used in a particular line
20:31:45 <int-e> the right question is, why does the plugin currently not work for the #esoteric logs
20:32:24 <oerjan> when i edit that away, the file shows fine. but with it, the _previous_ N-something lines get HackEgo's wiki announcements to show weirdly (but before that again they're as they use to.)
20:33:16 <oerjan> mind you, the weird thing is that IE _shows_ ^C's as boxes instead of leaving them out entirely, and also has problems selecting the line.
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20:39:08 <int-e> well, links shows dots
20:40:00 <int-e> Anyway, really unhappy with how many things Firefox 57 broke.
20:48:44 <oerjan> . o O ( has anyone forked 56 yet )
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20:50:43 <shachaf> I learned about an interesting conjecture yesterday.
20:52:03 <shachaf> If you write a greedy algorithm for the "infinite queens" problem, i.e. you start in the corner of an infinite chessboard, and for each subsequent row you put a queen in the leftmost row where it doesn't threaten any other queen, the queens form approximately two lines from the corner.
20:52:17 <shachaf> The slopes of those lines seem to be approximately phi and 1/phi
20:53:16 <garit> There is exact solution with the same pattern without phi being involved
20:54:04 <garit> Using horse steps of a previous queen
20:54:38 <shachaf> I'm specifically describing the greedy algorithm.
20:54:45 <shachaf> Or what do you mean by horse steps?
20:56:06 <garit> Right-down-down-down from a previous queen, this cell is always free (assuming no prepositioned queens), and when we reach the bottom we repeat the same process on a second half of a board
20:57:23 <garit> Pattern is slightly different for even and odd boards. And infinity isn't even or odd
20:57:58 <shachaf> I'm talking about an infinite board.
20:58:33 <garit> Then just start to build second line one infinity to the right :P
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20:59:12 <Taneb> The pattern for the greedy algorithm goes 1,3,5,2,4,6,8,10,7, right?
21:00:12 <shachaf> I think your 6 threatens your 1
21:00:34 <shachaf> It goes http://oeis.org/A065188
21:01:49 <Taneb> Forgot about diagonals
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21:49:30 <oerjan> shachaf: you said rows, that link says antidiagonals
21:56:04 <shachaf> But I think you end up with the same pattern maybe?
21:56:56 <shachaf> Though maybe not. Or maybe it's not known, because when I heard this problem it wasn't even proven whether it was a permutation.
22:06:00 <oerjan> hm the grid shown under "example" _does_ look consistent with doing it column by column
22:11:25 <fizzie> Opinion poll: should I, or should I not, copy the https://esolangs.org/forum/ archive over to the new place?
22:11:36 <fizzie> It's mostly DVD sales spam, but there's a few actual conversations.
22:12:31 <fizzie> Probably not, but it's the LOWEST PRICE.
22:13:18 <shachaf> Do they have Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download on DVD?
22:15:11 <quintopia> it says download right in the name.
22:15:27 <int-e> Wait, you don't download DVDs?
22:15:40 <quintopia> what does the last d stand for int-e?
22:15:49 <int-e> Information technology is so limited.
22:16:13 <quintopia> we're still waiting on diamond age
22:16:24 <int-e> quintopia: digital versatile downloadable?
22:16:58 <quintopia> exactly! nothing about downloading anywhere!
22:17:04 <int-e> (DVD *is* one of the funnier acronyms... based on the "V")
22:17:22 <int-e> Almost as funnny as PCMCIA.
22:18:00 <oerjan> shachaf: ok, i convinced myself it's equivalent whether you do it by antidiagonals or by columns
22:18:15 <quintopia> anyway, i vote for copying over the forum in read-only format. and if it's possible to remove the spam, that too
22:18:29 <oerjan> in particular there is one in each column
22:18:39 <int-e> (Of course it's hard to beat intel's IE ("innovation engine") (because why stop at *one* super privileged hardly accessible processor in the processor (the ME), when you can have two?))
22:19:35 <int-e> now to figure out what the other discussion is about...
22:19:52 <oerjan> . o O ( PCMCIA, it's fun to be ... )
22:23:22 <oerjan> proving that there's one in each row seems a bit trickier
22:25:37 <oerjan> which means it might not be a permutation, if it's not bijective.
22:26:54 <int-e> > let go y l d r = let x = head [x | x <- [1..], not ((x+y) `S.member` l), not (x `S.member` d), not ((x-y) `S.member` r)] in x : go (y+1) (S.insert (x+y) l) (S.insert x d) (S.insert (x-y) r) in go 1 S.empty S.empty S.empty
22:26:56 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,2,4,9,11,13,15,6,8,19,7,22,10,25,27,29,31,12,14,35,37,39,41,16,18,45,...
22:30:46 <int-e> Hmm, funny. I use infix for S.member, but not S.insert...
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23:29:48 <int-e> shachaf: at least this lends itself to drawing pictures like this: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/queens.png
23:30:34 <quintopia> what exactly is the greedy algorithm in question?
23:30:59 <quintopia> is it "for each row from the bottom place a queen in the leftmost unattacked position"?
23:31:31 <int-e> Well, I did it from the top, but yes.
23:32:04 <quintopia> and you got approximate lines of slope phi?
23:32:29 <int-e> Yes, but I do not understand why.
23:33:31 <quintopia> well, i mean, if someone were to say to me "hey can you believe the queens were close to a line? what do you think the slope of that line was?" my guess would be phi. It's the obvious choice for such a problem.
23:40:49 <int-e> It becomes more convincing when the 10001st queen is at slope 0.6181381861813818 and the 10002nd at slope 1.6179764047190561.
23:49:41 <quintopia> it's more convincing that it is intuitively true to me, but i am having a hard time formalizing my intuition. It has to do with the fact that a queen placed at (x,y) attacks all squares whose coordinates sum to x+y. And so, to go back to the left, you have to find an unused sum. What is the sequence of sums? 0,3,6,4,7,13,19,...
23:50:24 <quintopia> obviously it also has to do with the fact that phi and 1/phi are the most irrational positive numbers
23:51:13 <ais523> with a question like this, I think you'd need more evidence for it to /not/ be phi than for it to be phi :-P
23:51:48 <int-e> quintopia: the trouble with that line of reasoning is that many sums are unused.
23:59:49 <ais523> what proportion of the queens are placed to the right of all previous queens?
23:59:55 <ais523> that's likely to be a relevant part in the proof
00:01:15 <int-e> same golden ratio (the slope of the right queens is one plus that proportion, because the queens to the right are always placed on the next free diagonal)
00:02:45 <ais523> well, it looks like if you reorder the queens by x-y coordinate, then half of them are on each side of the x=y linen
00:03:05 <int-e> for 10000: (3819,6181)
00:03:11 <ais523> that feels like it's the start of a proof
00:03:19 <ais523> but I'm too tired to work out the details
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00:33:15 <int-e> quintopia: In fact it appears that the antidiagonals (with constant x+y) only add noise to the otherwise pretty picture thing; if only diagonals (constant x-y) and vertical lines are considered, the queens could be placed at ([k*phi + 1], [k*(phi+1) + 1]) and ([k*(phi+1) + 1], [k*phi + 1]) for k >= 0, where [] is the floor function.
00:34:23 <int-e> (and phi = (1+sqrt(5))/2)
00:35:19 <int-e> so the challenge is to somehow show that the effect of the antidiagonals is negligible for those asymptotic slopes.
00:46:29 <int-e> (Everything seems to boil down to showing that all verticals and diagonals are occupied, and there are only two asymptotic slopes; given that, if d is the proportion of queens to the right of the main diagonal, the k-th "right" queen will end up around (k/d + k, k/d), and the k-th "left" queen at (k/(1-d) - k, k/(1-d)); in order to occupy all verticals, the densities of k/d+k and k/(1-d)-k must...
00:46:35 <int-e> ...sum to 1; hence, d/(1+d) + (1-d)/d = 1, 1 = d + d^2, d = (sqrt(5)-1)/2 = phi-1, and the resulting slopes are phi and phi+1...)
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01:04:16 <fizzie> Just as a note of caution, the recent changes feed may be a little flaky at first. I haven't set it up as an autostarted service.
01:12:43 <HackEgo> esowiki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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02:31:02 <ais523> huh, so apparently someone's been writing an OS in subleq, of all things: http://esoteric.codes/post/168290778358/a-programming-language-with-only-one-command-and
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03:50:36 <\oren\> ok it took me this long but I have stuff working on my new computer
03:51:21 <\oren\> And decided what color I want my computer keys to glow
04:19:41 <zzo38> Incoming connections do not seem to work on my computer (even though it worked yesterday). Is that a problem with my computer? The ISP seems to think so.
04:24:08 <zzo38> Ah, I think I may have found the problem
04:24:26 <shachaf> ais523, int-e: Donald Knuth says he thinks this may never be proved.
04:24:38 <shachaf> Which seemed surprising to me.
04:24:41 <zzo38> No it seems to be correct
04:31:39 <ais523> shachaf: "this" = what? the queens problem?
04:31:57 <ais523> (also, I assume you didn't ask him just now, so presumably he was studying it earlier)
04:32:04 <\oren\> I wanna try this dawn os thing
04:32:41 <shachaf> ais523: He mentioned it at a talk I went to yesterday, which is where I learned about it.
04:34:29 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
04:36:46 <ais523> huh, it isn't on OEIS (unless I made a data entry mistake)
04:37:17 <ais523> oh, I did make a data entry mistake
04:37:21 <ais523> http://oeis.org/A065188
04:39:24 <ais523> not since I joined, I think?
04:40:07 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't know when you joined.
04:40:12 <shachaf> I thought you saw my original description.
04:47:34 <\oren\> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/img/dawnos.png
04:47:51 <\oren\> I think I detect anime waifus in that screenshot
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05:24:24 <ais523> int-e: shachaf: here's a much easier problem: make it so that the queens can only attack north-south and northeast-southeast
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05:25:02 <shachaf> Where do you put the corner?
05:25:08 <ais523> you'll find that the pattern is much simpler due to no random northeast-southwest lining-ups, and yet the ratio is still the golden ratio
05:25:18 <ais523> and this is based in int-e's picture, starting in the top left
05:25:45 <ais523> I think that should be very easy to prove
05:26:12 <ais523> then it might be possible to prove that the northeast-southwest lining-ups aren't common enough to make a long-term difference to the ratio
05:27:41 <zzo38> The DHCP server is giving me an invalid IP address "192.168.0.3" but somehow outgoing connections still work; incoming connections don't work. How to fix it?
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05:58:03 <zzo38> I found out what the problem was and corrected it. Now the IP address changed back to what it was before, and it works (although the DNS will also have to be reverted; once it is, then it will work I expect)
06:00:33 <zzo38> I don't know why it suddenly stopped working today, but fortunately I managed to fix it, after figuring out what was the correct password for the modem (the people on the telephone gave me an incorrect password)
06:16:00 <shachaf> ais523: You're forbidding east-west too, of course
06:16:06 <shachaf> Except that's implicit in the greedy algorithm
06:17:21 <ais523> yes, EW is irrelevant here
06:17:43 <shachaf> But this gives us http://oeis.org/A002251
06:19:07 <shachaf> Or I guess you'd call it http://oeis.org/A019444
06:20:27 <shachaf> "Also, a lexicographically minimal sequence of distinct positive integers such that all values of a(n)-n are also distinct"
06:20:38 <shachaf> They don't make the connection explicit, this is probably worth submitting.
06:26:49 <shachaf> If you solve this problem Knuth will sign your thesis.
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06:37:30 <zzo38> fizzie: Copy the good messages from the old forum into a static document. The bad messages could be moved into another static document, maybe.
06:38:15 <zzo38> And, I have never heard of this "infinite queen" problem.
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07:22:04 <zzo38> I played chess earlier today, and my opponent resigned after I failed to recapture one of his pawns with one of my own, instead choosing to advance without capturing.
07:22:32 <esowiki> [[Crement]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53554&oldid=53490 * Zzo38 * (+72) Categories
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08:17:30 <Taneb> Is that a new bot specifically for the wiki I see?
08:17:58 <shachaf> HackEgo was both for the wiki you see and for the wiki you don't see
08:18:14 <shachaf> This one is more useful to you
08:26:50 <shachaf> So Wythoff's Nim is a game where there are two piles, and you can remove some number from either pile, or you can remove from both piles, if you remove the same number from each one
08:27:12 <shachaf> This variation would allow you to move from one pile to the other as well.
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08:32:02 <shachaf> Of course this isn't guaranteed to terminate.
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08:35:37 <Taneb> shachaf, what is the objective?
08:36:56 <shachaf> Taneb: You lose (or win?) if it's your turn and both piles are empty.
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09:29:09 <shachaf> I guess I'll email Sloane about this.
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10:18:37 <int-e> @tell ais523 I already gave a solution (though without proof) for that simplified version almost 5 hours before you proposed it :P
10:19:39 <function> @tell lambdabot that I'm testing lambdabot
10:23:23 <shachaf> int-e: Huh, I didn't see that.
10:24:10 <shachaf> int-e: I was just writing an email to Sloane about it before and decided not to because ais523 wasn't here.
10:24:19 <shachaf> Also I wanted to think about it some more.
10:24:55 <shachaf> http://oeis.org/A002251 is indeed the best possible approximation of those two lines.
10:35:02 <int-e> Underlying this is an instance of the following amazing elementary theorem (which probably has a name, hmm.): If a,b > 1 are irrational numbers with 1/a + 1/b = 1, then the sequences ([a*k])_k and ([b*k])_k (k >= 1) are disjoint and cover the natural numbers >= 1, where again [] is the floor function.
10:35:53 <int-e> 1/phi + 1/(phi+1) = 1. (or, if you prefer, 1/phi + 1/phi^2 = 1)
10:40:46 <shachaf> This is apparently called Rayleigh's Theorem or Beatty's Theorem
10:40:53 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatty_sequence https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Beatty%27s_Theorem
10:41:16 <int-e> (I was wondering how to search for it.)
10:42:10 <int-e> I considered starting from http://oeis.org/A002251 where the name Beatty comes up... would have been a viable route, probably :)
10:42:10 <shachaf> Are the two full queen sequences Beatty?
10:42:46 <int-e> No, they are too noisy (the lower "line" isn't even monotonically increasing).
10:48:41 <shachaf> Did you figure out this theorem just now, or what?
10:48:54 <function> its fun reading through the commit history of /dev/random
10:54:01 <int-e> shachaf: no, I learned about it as a teenager
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10:54:43 <shachaf> That theorem was a teenager quite a long time ago.
10:55:06 <int-e> (though not quite that long :P)
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10:58:00 <shachaf> I knew from reading OEIS that it was true for phi but I didn't realize it was true for any sequence.
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11:13:06 <fizzie> Taneb: Yes, though it doesn't do anything else than the recent change feed.
11:14:46 <HackEgo> 1/2:procrasti//The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they'd ever got around to it. \ lie bracket//Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them. \ costume//Costumes are used for cosplay. Ta
11:14:51 <HackEgo> 2/2:neb sometimes invents them. \ shrimp//Shrimp transcends the concept of meat. \ cookie//Hackego wants a cookie! *hangs*
11:15:21 <shachaf> Taneb: You don't invent all costumes?
11:16:00 <HackEgo> cat: canary: Permission denied
11:16:12 <shachaf> I should really go to sleep.
11:16:13 <HackEgo> cat: < canary: No such file or directory
11:16:18 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: canary: Permission denied
11:16:48 <shachaf> Remind me, do you follow the Mill?
11:18:16 <int-e> hmm, this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_architecture
11:18:44 <int-e> If so, I can't say that I'm following it. I'm vaguely aware that it exists.
11:19:11 <shachaf> I went to their talk the other day, there are a few things that are still unclear.
11:19:38 <oerjan> keeping canary readonly sort of sabotages its purpose...
11:20:37 <HackEgo> rm: remove write-protected regular empty file ‘canary’?
11:20:38 <HackEgo> cat: canary: Permission denied
11:20:52 <int-e> it had to time out
11:21:05 <int-e> `` chmod u+w canary
11:21:33 <HackEgo> File: ‘canary’ \ Size: 0 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 1024 regular empty file \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 672529 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.0000000
11:22:11 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 11:20 canary
11:22:12 <int-e> I guess that was to be expected (recreating it from the repo will reset the access rights)
11:22:36 <int-e> `` chmod -r canary
11:22:51 <int-e> I think it's fine this way.
11:22:56 <shachaf> I like the description of the Mill's belt: "hardware SSA'
11:23:01 <HackEgo> --w------- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 11:20 canary
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11:25:59 <int-e> shachaf: I actually have three lectures of the guy (at Stanford a few years ago) downloaded, but never got around to watching them... probably never will. Skimming a paper is more realistic for me.
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11:28:18 <shachaf> int-e: Some of it is written up on the website now.
11:28:33 <shachaf> Unfortunately a lot is still in video form. Video isn't a great way to transmit information.
11:28:52 <shachaf> Those lectures are better watched at 2x speed.
11:29:34 <shachaf> You can read e.g. https://millcomputing.com/topic/introduction-to-the-mill-cpu-programming-model-2/
11:29:57 <shachaf> Those diagrams are awful on a dark background.
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11:33:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Funding]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53555&oldid=53553 * Oerjan * (+47) Ho humsigned
11:37:12 <fizzie> Heh, thanks. I'm not very MediaWiki-talk-oriented.
11:40:41 <oerjan> <ais523> shachaf: "this" = what? the queens problem? <-- . o O ( maybe we should just forbid shachaf from using that word )
11:41:04 <int-e> oerjan: He won't like that.
11:41:48 * oerjan sees what int-e did there.
11:43:16 <int-e> shachaf: anyway, large parts of this remind me of HP's and intel's EPIC approach.
11:43:36 <oerjan> `learn This is something shachaf likes to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:43:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'thi': This is something shachaf likes to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:43:39 <int-e> (Not to say EPIC failure. Well I guess I had to say it.)
11:43:56 <shachaf> oerjan: Come on, that this wasn't a reference to this.
11:44:06 <shachaf> Also I think zzo38 should get credit.
11:44:19 <int-e> Yeah I think zzo38 started this.
11:44:25 <oerjan> shachaf: he may have started it, but you made it jump the shark hth
11:44:49 <shachaf> shachaf@iodine:~/logs/esoteric/tunes-13-$ grep 'Do you like this' 17.* | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
11:45:04 <int-e> (And I may have been a bit of a catalyst simply by complaining about this.)
11:45:18 <shachaf> 77 <zzo38> \ 19 <shachaf> \ 2 <HackEgo> \ 1 <lambdabot> \ 1 <Cale>
11:45:24 <int-e> Anyway, enough of this. (Argh.)
11:45:28 <shachaf> Just so we're clear about this.
11:45:43 <oerjan> `learn This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:45:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'thi': This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:45:45 <shachaf> int-e: Actually, the catalyst was a former coworker of mine who knew zzo38 through another medium.
11:46:05 <HackEgo> cat: bin/oops: No such file or directory
11:46:08 <HackEgo> OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "«${NEW}» already exists"; exit 1; fi; mv "$OLD" "$NEW" && echo "«${OLD}» -> «${NEW}»"
11:46:10 <int-e> It's damn hard to stop. (One more: shachaf is the one who made this painful.)
11:46:17 <oerjan> `le/rn this//This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:46:19 <HackEgo> Relearned 'this': This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
11:46:30 <oerjan> now it's nice and inclusive.
11:46:34 <HackEgo> 9714:2016-11-17 <oerjän> whoop ../bin/whoop \ 9713:2016-11-17 <shachäf> ` mv bin/whoop{s,} \ 9710:2016-11-17 <oerjän> ` mv bin/whoops{s,} \ 9709:2016-11-17 <oerjän> whoops \ 9708:2016-11-17 <oerjän> mkx bin/whoops//OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "\xc2\xab${NEW}\xc2\xbb alread
11:46:57 <shachaf> oerjan: You gotta learn to use your ownventions
11:47:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i know i made it, but now i was suddenly queasy about keeping the history on the right file
11:50:09 <int-e> shachaf: So... there are some questions that Mill has to answer; foremost, perhaps, how well utilised the VLIW words will be. There's also the issue with memory bounded stuff (where, actually, it's beneficial to have out of order execution; you may have one load from cache and one from memory without knowing which one will be which in advance)... and there's utilisation of compute units;...
11:50:15 <int-e> ...hyperthreading is done for a reason. So, hmm. It's interesting to watch but too early to buy into, I think.
11:51:02 <int-e> (The first point is about code size and correspondingly, required memory bandwidth for code.)
11:51:21 <shachaf> It's certainly too early to buy into. But they have a lot of creative ideas.
11:51:28 <shachaf> They've responded to some of your points.
11:52:22 <shachaf> E.g. They say that ~88% of the benefit of an OOO chip can be achieved with static scheduling, I think/
11:52:25 <shachaf> https://piazza-resources.s3.amazonaws.com/hf1cdb546x444z/hg1su47nz4g5po/Discerning.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIEDNRLJ4AZKBW6HA&Expires=1512831104&Signature=GMYlhuBq1ACt%2BYsVJuTi1nhGtg0%3D
11:53:22 <shachaf> They have all sorts of tricks for getting high instruction parallelism. Hard to say how well it'll really work in practice this far in advance, of course, but they have a working LLVM backend and they say it generates code that uses it well.
11:54:15 <shachaf> They also say that they don't think hyperthreading will give that much benefit over just adding more cores for most general-purpose code.
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12:00:20 <esowiki> [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53556&oldid=53093 * Stefan-hering * (+19)
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12:08:42 <int-e> shachaf: The way I see it, hyperthreading pays for a lot of the OOO execution complexity, by using the same instruction scheduling engine for two threads. I'll admit that it's totally unclear whether two simpler cores are better or worse.
12:14:40 <shachaf> I'm certainly not a CPU designer.
12:14:52 <shachaf> They discussed it a bit in the most recent talk on threading.
12:15:32 <int-e> neither am I (obviously?)
12:16:22 <int-e> Heck I have not even used an FPGA, or even something like Verilog in a simulator.
12:16:33 <shachaf> Their claim is that the machinery that has to be duplicated to implement SMT is almost as expensive as another core, that you don't really get that much benefit for typical workloads, especially when you get increased instruction-level parallelism with their other tricks.
12:17:01 <shachaf> And that there's a lot of ILP that an OOO CPU can't see because it's too far ahead.
12:17:16 <shachaf> Of course we heard some of these same claims with the Itanium.
12:17:34 <shachaf> But they give various reasons they think they'll be able to do better.
12:19:34 <int-e> Hmm maybe I should get myself a copy of the Hennessy Patterson book for christmas?
12:20:26 <int-e> Well, probably not. No time for that, really.
12:23:16 <int-e> Hmm, wow... Blu-ray cheaper than DVD, I don't think I've seen that happen before. (There's a solution to the puzzle: the Blu-ray version has been available for almost a year now.)
12:23:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Wiki dumps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53557&oldid=39282 * Fizzie * (+49) Update dump schedule, make numbers bigger.
12:26:19 <fizzie> If there's anyone regularly downloading the XML dump daily, please switch to a weekly schedule, because it's now generated weekly.
12:27:35 <fizzie> (At least if you're not using zsync.)
12:27:39 <shachaf> int-e: DVD is a collector's item
12:29:06 <shachaf> fizzie: Because of bandwidth constraints?
12:32:48 <fizzie> shachaf: Let's say it felt like the right tradeoff to make, judging from edit frequency. I don't think daily would be an issue, but there are many days with no edits (though recently's been pretty active).
12:35:47 <shachaf> I mean, are you asking pople not to do it because of bandwidth constraints?
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12:37:18 <shachaf> How much should I pay esolangs.org for daily dump download dispensation?
12:37:42 <fizzie> More out of a general sense of appropriateness. It doesn't seem to make sense to download it more frequently than it's generated.
12:38:49 <fizzie> If y'all (that's the word, right?) do prefer to have it generated daily, we can do daily.
12:40:20 <fizzie> A single person downloading the non-zsync dump every day would mean about +2 GiB/month; we're around ~100 GiB/month as it is, with a nominal limit of 1 TiB/month.
12:46:53 <fizzie> I don't have metrics on how much zsync saves. :/
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13:12:14 <int-e> Hmm. The xml dump is a single file, so I guess the main benefit is that zsync is cheap when there's no new dump.
13:15:11 <int-e> > 440964486 / 215318
13:20:11 <fizzie> int-e: I thought zsync's supposed to be clever about downloading only changed parts within files?
13:20:49 <fizzie> AIUI, it writes the rsync-style per-block checksums to the metadata file it downloads, and then does HTTP range requests to get only the necessary bytes.
13:20:50 <int-e> So apparently the .zsync file contains a header and 11 bytes (hmm, 3 bytes weak and 8 bytes strong hash?) per 2048 byte chunk of the /uncompressed/ esolang.xml file.
13:23:06 <int-e> Hmm. Let me read a bit more.
13:23:23 <fizzie> http://zsync.moria.org.uk/paper/ is what I was basing that on.
13:24:04 <fizzie> (We're using "zsyncmake -z" on the original uncompressed dump.)
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13:28:16 <int-e> Yeah it sounds like it should do a decent job. (Rolling hashes, on uncompressed data, plus offset information for peaking into the right locations of the .gz file)
13:30:04 <int-e> wow. "But it is possible to decompress the file and then recompress it with a variety of options, until a set of options is found that produces a file identical to the original."
13:33:45 <int-e> Okay... I'd hope to see savings in the 20x to 30x range (30 is an upper bound coming from the size of the esolang.xml.zsync file itself), and just a couple of hundred bytes download if the contents has not been changed at all.
13:34:14 <int-e> Assuming that the wiki dump doesn't randomly shuffle pages.
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14:02:17 <fizzie> From what I've seen, it's in article ID order.
14:03:05 <fizzie> I might be confusing that with the file cache rebuild script, they both print similar outputs.
14:04:24 <fizzie> zcat esolang.xml.gz | grep '^ <id>' looks pretty monotonic, so I guess that's right.
14:06:11 <int-e> For people who really want full dumps, offering a .xz might help; that shrinks the 66MB (gzip) to 20MB (xz).
14:07:50 <int-e> (Well, 21MB. gzip -9 is 63MB, bzip2 -9 results in 33MB)
14:08:47 <int-e> (gzip -9 may interfere with the zsync, of course)
14:09:08 <ais523> the difference in compression ratio there is kind-of astonishing
14:09:59 <ais523> maybe we could steal an algorithm from the Human Knowledge Compression Contest? that specifically uses MediaWiki dumps as the test case for compression
14:10:35 <int-e> well there's no real point in using compression software that isn't commonly available, I think.
14:13:01 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/GOVA ... that's the things I could think of
14:14:33 <fizzie> int-e: Do you want to check what the --rsync flag does to the gzip lines?
14:16:28 <int-e> gzip -9 --rsync results in 64528216 (instead of 62915220)
14:17:53 <int-e> > 64528216 / 62915220
14:18:31 <int-e> "This increase size by less than 1 percent most cases." ... well close enough I guess
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14:21:19 <ais523> int-e: looks like the second-place entry is GPL
14:24:28 -!- whateverhewants has changed nick to sdhand.
14:27:28 * int-e twiddles his thumbs
14:29:04 <int-e> well, some paq variant can squeeze out a bit more indeed. http://sprunge.us/bjUW
14:29:57 <int-e> but I expect that most linux systems at least have xz these days; I had not heard of lrz before.
14:31:07 <fizzie> How about brotli? ;) (I don't think it's going to set any records.)
14:32:50 <int-e> actually let me check if I have a package
14:34:10 <int-e> I wonder how long it'll take though
14:37:43 <int-e> > gzip -d < esolang.xml.gz | brotli | wc -c ==> 20748329
14:37:46 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:26: error: parse error on input ‘|’
14:37:53 <int-e> in about 3 minutes
14:40:19 * int-e should've timed all those commands
14:56:37 <fizzie> That's a nice bump over gzip. I wonder if there's some non-inlined resources I could brotli precompress, given that a bunch of browsers do support it.
14:59:51 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/KJOL
15:00:16 <int-e> and that's enough playing around with compressors
15:00:54 <int-e> (the last two entries say something about the (lack of) worth of hyperthreading for BWT based compression.
15:07:25 <Cale> shachaf: Do you like "Do you like this?"?
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16:08:50 -!- fizzie has set topic: Happy 15th birthday, #esoteric! | Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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17:24:39 <int-e> so tempted to add https://xkcd.com/1926/ to the topic
17:25:49 <ais523> it's not insane enough
17:26:02 <ais523> Haskell isn't particularly inappropriate for HTML parsing
17:26:15 <ais523> although it's hard to see why the spreadsheet formula would help
17:26:15 <int-e> (Perhaps not, but it reminds me of the time I wrote a Perl program that generated a Java program that generated a Java program.)
17:26:44 <ais523> NetHack 4's build process involves a Perl program that builds a C program then runs it to generate another C program
17:26:46 <variable> int-e: likely not new to you, but just in case https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
17:26:54 <ais523> but that is one of the /least/ insane parts of it :-D
17:27:09 <ais523> variable: quine relays are fairly boring IMO because it's basically just a whole load of nested print statements
17:27:21 <int-e> variable: I've definitely seen some version of that idea.
17:27:22 <ais523> how many languages does it have, incidentally?
17:28:00 <ais523> oh, that's less than I was expecting
17:28:38 <ais523> here, have a program that prints a different integer in each of 159 different languages: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/149451
17:29:03 <ais523> (the most recently added was Literate Agda)
17:29:20 <int-e> It's slightly cheating because you can often bridge several programming languages in one step at little cost, just given a function that turns a string into a program that prints it.
17:29:47 <ais523> int-e: I assumed it did that for every language
17:29:49 <int-e> Or perhaps not cheating, but this demystifies this whole thing quite a bit.
17:29:54 <ais523> and then just used one language to revert the whole mess at the end
17:30:03 <int-e> ais523: well you actually have to diagonalize from time to time.
17:30:14 <ais523> I was thinking you'd only diagonalize once
17:30:35 <int-e> I don't know, but I imagine it would grow too big to actually be executed that way in some steps.
17:31:17 <ais523> I was assuming that that would actually be smaller
17:32:07 <int-e> there's whitespace, intercal, and brainfuck in the loop, all of which explode for string constants, I think.
17:32:45 <int-e> I've never looked closely so you may well be right
17:33:02 <ais523> I believe all three are linear
17:33:08 <ais523> just more than 1 byte per byte
17:33:43 <ais523> come to think of it, I can't think of an esolang offhand in which encoding strings is O(n²)
17:34:05 <ais523> (that is, in terms of source code length; there are likely several which are O(n²) at printing them)
17:34:14 <int-e> I like how the readme starts with $ ulimit -s unlimited
17:35:37 <ais523> that makes me shudder a bit, I naturally want to write it as -Ss, but then I realised the two are equivalent in this case
17:36:07 <int-e> . o O ( getting a new shell is cheap )
17:36:23 <ais523> (without -S the ulimit is unincreasable within that shell session, which is useful to stop potentially rogue programs undoing it but isn't what you want to catch honest mistakes; however, if you're setting it to unlimited, that hardly matters…)
17:37:57 <zzo38> Why does the build process use a Perl program and then it builts a C program and then another C program? It seem like strange to me
17:40:01 <ais523> zzo38: the Perl program automates the entire build; the first C program parses the source of the second C program and generates things like constants based on string literals
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18:01:25 <zzo38> Would thre be a possibility compiling NetHack into RogueVM? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/roguevm I have written a section at the end with some considerations about NetHack
18:03:30 <zzo38> Specifically, hangup saves won't be a problem in RogueVM.
18:04:38 <ais523> zzo38: can it handle function pointers? NetHack needs those
18:05:32 <ais523> also the data storage model is quite different from NetHack's, you could probably compile into it but you'd be missing most of the features
18:05:47 <ais523> (and most versions of NetHack use the "struct hack"; I think it might have been removed from 3.6 though)
18:06:02 <zzo38> Yes; any function pointer is a number indexing into the function table, so you can use those numbers as function pointers.
18:06:34 <ais523> but things like "input map coordinates" aren't really useful for NetHack because NetHack does things /during/ the coordinate input process
18:06:50 <ais523> such as jumping to monsters on keypress, hover-farlook, and the like
18:07:03 <zzo38> ais523: The document is not yet complete; I did intend to add support for those kind of things too
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18:07:46 <zzo38> About the data storage model though, it could be "hidden behind" the implementations of malloc() and such, if needed
18:09:19 <zzo38> Another thing I should add is support for use of multiple character sets (the user configuration or something else determines what is used)
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18:15:28 <zzo38> As you can see some of the sections say (TODO) on it; maybe you have some suggestions relating to them.
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18:26:04 <int-e> "AlphaZero learns Chess and surpasses StockFish" -- while burning about 2MW of electricity in TPUs.
18:26:27 <int-e> err, I cut the quote short, it said "in 4 hours"
18:26:55 <quintopia> would it still win if its power were cut down?
18:28:02 <int-e> Note, that is the power spent while training. The power for playing is probably a fairly normal 1-2kW.
18:28:06 <quintopia> i mean, we must expect a correlation between power usage and chess skill. humans are much better than birds at chess after all
18:28:32 <int-e> ("normal" for a high end PC/server)
18:29:05 <quintopia> oh. well yeah. power/time tradeoffs
18:30:19 <int-e> Rumors are that they didn't give Stockfish any opening book or table bases. Oh and 1GB of hashtables are mentioned in the whitepaper which isn't so much either.
18:31:48 <quintopia> okay that seems unfair. tablebases are an important part of stockfish's strength. alphazero doesn't and shouldn't need them.
18:32:32 <quintopia> however, even without them, it held alphazero to a draw in a large majority of games
18:32:45 <int-e> Well, chess is a draw :P
18:33:39 <quintopia> where does randomness enter those algorithms? they are obviously not deterministic
18:33:53 <ais523> wouldn't alphazero necessarily be stronger if given tablebases?
18:34:10 <ais523> like, there's no need for an approximate evaluation function if you have a mathematically correct one
18:34:16 <int-e> They have some MCTS on top of the neural network; the policy part of the network is used to determine probabilities of where to explore next.
18:34:37 <quintopia> it learned enough to produce the same results as the tablebases i think
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18:35:07 <int-e> Not sure it would necessarily be stronger, against a non-perfect opponent.
18:35:08 <ais523> and the reason they use MCTS not alpha-beta is because the neural network's evaluations are somewhat unstable (= more sensitive than they should be to small changes in the input) and MCTS is better at coping with the instability
18:35:47 <ais523> int-e: so your idea is that alphazero evaluation is better than tablebases at determining which lines an opponent is likely to misplay?
18:35:54 <int-e> (with tablebases it's hard to go for tricking the opponent)
18:36:02 <quintopia> what does milwaukee county transit system have to do with it?
18:36:16 <int-e> ais523: I don't know.
18:36:18 <ais523> monte-carlo tree search
18:36:28 <int-e> ais523: But this is a possible way that adding tablebases could make a program weaker.
18:38:26 <int-e> It may also add odd discontinuities in an evaluation function, if it's used in the tree search (starting from a non-table-base position).
18:39:38 <int-e> One conservative idea that should definitely work is to take the MCTS move and override it if it worsens the evaluation according to tablebases.
18:40:10 <ais523> yes, I think that definitely works
18:40:11 <int-e> Where "work" means it should not weaken the engine.
18:40:33 <int-e> (Unless playing against execptionally bad opposition :P)
18:40:47 <ais523> or along similar lines, the only allowable moves should be those that are tablebase-optimal but you use the normal algorithm to choose between them
18:44:10 <quintopia> i wonder if theres a way to use the first few moves or games to determine the opponents strengtha
18:44:45 <quintopia> and if found to be much lower, go for slightly suboptimal moves that are likely to be badly mise aluated
18:45:37 <int-e> well if you recognize bad moves then you can probably exploit them anyway :P
18:46:03 <int-e> (I cannot really answer the question.)
18:46:13 <zzo38> I think I have managed to make an alternative way to make a Minsky machine with Crement
18:46:36 <int-e> (Except maybe that opening books cover the first few moves so you shouldn't hope to learn much about the opponent's strength from those.)
18:46:39 <ais523> quintopia: well, if you're playing against an opponent who has a tablebase, you can assume that it's not going to play tablebase-suboptimal moves
18:46:48 <ais523> and if you're up at stockfish's or alphazero's level, all viable opponents will have one
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18:56:37 <quintopia> int-e: but maybe after a few games you can recognize a weaker player who relies heavily on books and tablebases, and do a better job of steering them into the weeds where those will be less useful
19:03:11 <int-e> quintopia: you can get the full game theory... in the next iteration, players can emulate weak players and then strike when the other player tries to exploit those weaknesses ;)
19:03:27 <int-e> (well, not full game theory, just the two player zero sum part, I guess)
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20:44:56 <moony> Anyone here used https://www.ponylang.org/ ?
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22:12:16 <quintopia> int-e: cool idea. hard to exploit. what if you have to lose two games to convince your opponent to help you win one?
22:12:44 <quintopia> soon it becomes a matter of exploiting the number of games in the match
22:13:49 <quintopia> at which point you hide the number of games to be played from the competitors. (of course, i dont think they give them that info to begin with)
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23:45:38 <fizzie> Let's try to flip a thing.
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00:14:07 <boily> fizziello. flip flap flop flup flep ♪
00:14:22 <lambdabot> CYQB 100000Z 01005KT 15SM FEW070 OVC180 M03/M07 A2984 RMK AC1CI8 AC TR SLP112
00:17:48 <fungot> boily: ignoring a validating structural editor, what other options are there :-)_ cube
00:18:09 <boily> fungot: FOUR DAYS ROTATIONS IN THE VALIDATING STRUCTURAL EDITOR.
00:18:09 <fungot> boily: unless it uses recursion a lot of
00:18:26 <boily> fungot: of course it recurses. how else can you achieve four days in one?
00:18:26 <fungot> boily: " this is imperative code" or " ooo" in the memory of the routine, to get to bed
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01:57:14 <zzo38> What is the best way to clean the computer display? I got a new one today, which works, but, it is dirty.
01:58:40 <zzo38> I think I have one of those somewhere
01:58:41 <quintopia> if that doesn't work, wet a cloth with windex and wipe it and then wipe it dry
01:58:58 <zzo38> (Unfortunately, I forgot where I put it)
02:04:22 <zzo38> I made this list of file formats that my Farbfeld Utilities programs supports so far http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Farbfeld_Utilities (some of the formats are obscure) Anyone who is wanting to write any new public domain C program to read/write other picture file formats, to please to do so. Someone also can make a logo for this Farbfeld Utilities collection if they want to do so, please.
02:11:16 <zzo38> There is also a stuck pixel in my computer.
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02:22:51 <quintopia> you can't. i've never heard of a fix for that.
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03:02:45 <quintopia> the only downside of being supported by Bytemark is that they don't have a Hexham data centre. It would be appropriate :P
03:40:34 <pikhq> zzo38: TIL there's an iPhone-only PNG variant.
03:42:17 <pikhq> Some of those changes at least make some sense, but others are just weird.
03:44:36 <shachaf> Do you like chicken of the woods?
03:49:10 <pikhq> No, it's a fungus.
03:58:43 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and I don't know why, but, there is.
03:59:08 <zzo38> At least, reading such format is not so difficult to implement using existing PNG reader library, by adding a few extra codes.
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04:00:59 <zzo38> How many of the formats listed there have you heard of (or used) before?
04:04:27 <pikhq> I'd used 9, and heard of more.
04:05:21 <pikhq> BMP, GIF, JPEG, MacPaint, PBM, PNM, PNG, XBM, XPM.
04:06:26 <zzo38> Well, those are some of the more common ones, anyways, I suppose.
04:07:04 <pikhq> Yeah, those are basically the ones that are common in consumer or developer use, plus one that would be used by anyone that'd played around on old Macs.
04:09:29 <zzo38> Although most programs that support XPM seem to not support XPM2 format.
04:10:07 <pikhq> Which is odd, as that one seems easier to support.
04:10:18 <pikhq> Not *massively*, but easier.
04:10:54 <zzo38> Yes, it does seem a bit odd, to me, too
04:11:10 <pikhq> And trivial to support if you support XPM3.
04:11:17 <HackEgo> It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate.
04:11:19 <shachaf> I found it at Berkeley Bowl today.
04:11:24 <pikhq> shachaf: I don't think I've had chicken of the woods, actually.
04:11:51 <pikhq> Seems like it'd be tasty though.
04:12:03 <shachaf> It's certainly quite unusual for a mushroom.
04:14:16 <shachaf> "It is this, it is this that oppresses my soul, / When I think of my uncle's last words: / And my heart is like nothing so much as a bowl / Brimming over with quivering curds!
04:14:23 <shachaf> "It is this, it is this--" "We have had that before!" / The Bellman indignantly said. / And the Baker replied "Let me say it once more. / It is this, it is this that I dread!
04:15:32 <zzo38> Anyways, my own software does support all three XPM formats (both for reading and for writing), including monochrome, grey scale, colour overriding, and stippling (which isn't actually a feature of the file format (so any program that can read XPM will still read these files), but rather is a way to make the monochrome version of a picture using non-solid "colours").
04:18:57 <zzo38> Z-machine XZIP Picture Library format might be one of the most obscure file formats I have listed in there, because as far as I can tell, there is no other software that can read/write such format, and I have found only one file of that format (which was probably written using software that no longer exists).
04:29:09 <pikhq> Do you even know the *name* of the program that was supposed to implement it?
04:30:28 <pikhq> Well. That's a Z-machine thing. It might've been Infocom-internal, actually?
04:31:08 <zzo38> pikhq: No, I do not know the name of the program, either. Although yes, I do believe it probably was Infocom-internal program that was used to write that file.
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04:35:58 <zzo38> I do have some of Infocom's source codes, but none that implement that file format.
04:39:29 <zzo38> I think I have figured out a much shorter way to make Minsky machine with Crement, although I am unsure if it is correct. Each register needs two instructions, and then increment becomes five instructions and decrement becomes seven instructions. I have implemented each register as: -D 0 initial_value +J 0 1
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10:53:24 <int-e> zzo38: I expected 9 instructions for decrement (two reads, one for the conditional jump, and one for the actual decrement)
11:52:16 <lambdabot> EGLL 101120Z 06007KT 4600 -RA SCT004 BKN010 BKN015 01/00 Q0972 TEMPO 1000 SN BKN003
11:53:06 <fizzie> There's SNOW on the roofs of some cars parked outside! (It's exceptional.)
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17:59:29 <zzo38> int-e: I don't know if what I did is correct or not though
18:00:38 <zzo38> (Because, it is untested, and I might not have look at it carefully enough)
18:01:59 <zzo38> But, this is what I have: For increment, it is: +A R @+2 +A R+1 @+1 +J R 1 +D @+1 0 +D R 0 For decrement, it is: +A R @+2 +A R+1 @+1 +J R 1 -J next_if_zero 0 +A R R-1 +A R+1 @+1 +J R 1
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20:37:55 <esowiki> [[S.I.L.O.S]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53558&oldid=49801 * Wheatwizard * (+0) Fixed link formatting
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21:03:26 <Soni> is there some sort of bfzip or something that produces higher compression rates than gzip and implements brainfuck (or something) under the hood?
21:09:05 <choco_chuck> the rar format has a VM in it: https://github.com/taviso/rarvmtools
21:14:13 <zzo38> ZPAQ also can include instructions
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21:43:34 <esowiki> [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53559&oldid=53558 * Quintopia * (-170) This article needs some serious reformatting but here's a start
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21:48:53 <quintopia> what caused all that snow in the normally-snow-free parts of the northeast atlantic?
21:49:11 <quintopia> is it related to the unusual snow we had here last weekend?
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22:16:41 <fizzie> I don't know how weather works, really. There was a storm they were talking about earlier, but I'm not sure if that's related.
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02:33:46 <fizzie> (Sorry for the jumping around, I'm fiddling with it.)
02:50:13 <doesthiswork> when you do the hokie pokie, that's what its all about
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04:49:41 <zzo38> Short implementation of "Unnecessary" esolang in JavaScript: require("fs").stat(process.argv[2],x=>x||y)
04:50:38 <zzo38> Actually, you can do better: require("fs").stat(process.argv[2],x=>x._)
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11:02:30 <HackEgo> the universe//The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
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11:25:32 <mroman> somebody dissed Delphi just before I left.
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17:33:44 <quintopia> @tell ais523 here's a message so you don't keep coming up empty-handed
17:34:17 <ais523> it's OK for there not to be messages
17:34:28 <b_jonas> Interesting: http://plato.asu.edu/sub/pns.html list of numeric optimization software
17:34:29 <ais523> just I typically don't speak in here immediately upon connecting
17:34:43 <ais523> and if someone does send me a message it seems impolite to not let lambdabot know I want to read it
17:35:03 <ais523> also lambdabot sends the reminders by PM if you don't ask explicitly in-channel, which is easy to miss
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18:13:11 <zseri> What about a esoteric programming language, which is based on a embedded database (like table files or sqlite), reads a start node from a start table and then jump through table entries while processing
18:14:27 <ais523> sqlite is basically an esolang in its own right
18:17:02 <b_jonas> and it reads triggers from the database itself
18:17:22 <b_jonas> from the special root table I think
18:18:55 <b_jonas> yep, reads them from the special sqlite_master table
18:22:47 <zzo38> Yes, that is what SQLite does
18:25:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DenseComet * New user account
18:27:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53560&oldid=53536 * DenseComet * (+197) Added myself
18:29:06 <zzo38> There are some thing SQLite doesn't have (such as some more mathematical and statistical functions, although they can easily be added on by extensions, so that is OK), but the built-in stuff is good enough to make a Mandelbrot set and to solve a Sudoku puzzle
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18:47:04 <zzo38> I did make a SQLite extension for using PCRE, and due to that, have reported a bug with the auxdata functions (when used in multiple triggers at once), which they have since corrected.
18:58:43 <zseri> It would be nice to have language where every statement follows the same concept (with minimal syntax). I would imagine a STATEMENT layout like: A = B | C | (D | E); and so on; but in a way that it can express functions, I/O, arithmetic ...
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19:00:23 <zseri> or every statement like: THING = BASE | MODIFIER || PARTA | PARTB ...
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21:05:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53561&oldid=26444 * Zzo38 * (+335) Implementation in JavaScript (which is a bit strange)
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21:06:49 <zzo38> The description for Unnecessary says: "If the file doesn't exist, run NOP and end the program execution successfully. If the file exists, report an error and terminate immediately." It does not say what kind of error message, so it seem the implementation I made in JavaScript does that.
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21:21:03 <wob_jonas> Yay! My new keyboard arrived to the post office, I'll be able to pick it up tomorrow morning as I go to work.
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21:41:05 <oerjan> . o O ( why are you buying clickbait )
21:41:29 <int-e> for fishing clicks
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23:11:00 <oerjan> bubbly bubbly bitcoins
23:22:52 <HackEgo> bitcoins are coins that have been drilled through with a bit, and can be strung together in long chains. This practice dates to ancient China, and the Chinese remain experts in bitcoin manufacturing. A chain can support up to 21 million coins before breaking.
23:23:20 <shachaf> oerjan: do you read Matt Levine twh
23:24:52 <boily> helloochaf. pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch pooch.
23:25:34 <shachaf> boily: I wanted to watch YSAE but apparently they don't allow new subscriptions #scow
23:28:08 <boily> what's an YSAE twh
23:29:09 <shachaf> boily: "You Suck At Everything" hth
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23:34:28 <int-e> (before anyone asks, the new words are "now" and "less")
23:37:57 <fizzie> oerjan: It's very experimental, but it's up (for now): https://esolangs.org/logs/
23:38:04 <fizzie> (Lots to tweak still.)
23:42:13 <fizzie> (For example, seems that I forgot to have code for formatting NICK commands.)
23:45:48 <boily> test test test test test test 僕のホバークラフトは鰻でいっぱいです
23:46:23 <boily> <boily> test test test test test 12test
23:47:08 <fizzie> Also the formatting sanitization needs work.
23:47:32 <boily> IT DROPPED THE MULTIOCULAR O. PLEASE DO THE NEEDFUL.
23:47:57 <boily> meanwhile, time to brave the elements and go inhale a relaxing poutine...
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23:48:25 <fizzie> Hm, that's odd. It's supposed to just filter out everything < 32, and serve whatever bytes the logs contain (with charset=utf-8 headers).
23:50:25 <fizzie> Well, the ꙮ should be back, at least.
23:51:21 <wob_jonas> Méh-raj duruzsol <b>szellős fák alól,</b> <br>fürjek dala száll tó partján. Let's see how it deals with HTML tags.
23:52:07 <fizzie> Yes, just the <&> set.
23:52:26 <zzo38> fizzie: Will you add raw format too?
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23:53:17 <fizzie> zzo38: If you like. Should it be the same raw format as the codu.org logs? (The "native" raw format is protos.)
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23:53:58 <zzo38> fizzie: What is "protos"?
23:54:22 <fizzie> Protocol Buffers, https://developers.google.com/protocol-buffers/
23:54:55 <zzo38> Same format as codu.org logs would work.
23:55:29 <shachaf> fizzie: Why not expose protos? twh
23:55:36 <wob_jonas> Let's see how it handles multiple adjacent spaces.
23:55:56 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I thought I styled that right, but apparently not.
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23:56:12 <fizzie> The codu.org format sounds easy enough. The old logs will have a little bit less information, though, because I backfilled them from my own logs, which don't have all the information. :/
23:56:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the third playable race besides teran and zerg
23:56:32 <wob_jonas> is psionic, and its units are expensive
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23:58:28 <zzo38> I think that format like codu.org logs would be best, or, if you do not have sub-second precision, alternatively my own "SIRCL" format, where each IRC command is prefixed by a decimal UNIX timestamp and a tab.
23:59:34 <zzo38> fizzie: What timing precision does your logs have?
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23:59:59 <wob_jonas> And they have no mouth. Evolved to be breatharian or something.
00:00:27 <HackEgo> 1/2:tanstaaha//tanstaaha, so please stop using them. That would help. \ cat introduction//cat introduction is the process of piping one or more extra `cat` commands into your pipeline; occasionally this is even actually useful. \ nlhp//nlhp is a hockey programme. \ emacs//emacs is the weird brother of nano. \ extreme irony//Extreme irony
00:00:30 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O, is that StarCraft? I think I have heard of that (Sirlin mentioned it a few times).
00:00:30 <HackEgo> 2/2:is what happens when you get a Darwin award for extreme ironing.
00:01:19 <HackEgo> cat elimination is the process of replacing a one-argument `cat` command with the shell operator <
00:01:25 <HackEgo> cat: bin/nlhp: No such file or directory
00:01:57 <fizzie> The ones I generated from my own logs have one second precision, the ones the bot's recording now use microseconds.
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00:03:08 <zzo38> fizzie: O, OK. Either SIRCL or codu.org format should be acceptable; if using codu.org format then the ones that don't have microseconds you could put zero perhaps, maybe
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00:17:45 <fizzie> Re spaces, that was just a CSS mistake, turns out the property is "white-space" and not "whitespace".
00:18:52 <wob_jonas> fizzie: by the way, can you link to the other two log sites please?
00:19:14 <fizzie> From where, the index page?
00:19:30 <fizzie> Sure, I'll add a TODO.
00:20:00 <wob_jonas> Yeah, the spaces look better now. Thanks.
00:20:19 <wob_jonas> fizzie: can I link your logs from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal ?
00:21:19 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Eventually, sure, but they might not be quite ready for consumption yet. In particular, the index doesn't pick up new daily logs automatically yet, amusingly enough. Let me do a little bit of polish before that.
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01:34:16 <alexThinkpad> this chan is about esoteric programming languages?
01:34:23 <HackEgo> alexThinkpad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:34:59 <shachaf> esoteri.ca is for sale for $2000
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02:09:46 <zzo38> Probably it depend the use I suppose, regex seem good enough for many of the thing that it is in use for
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02:10:30 <alexThinkpad> okay so ... what else that can also be somehow good is there else than regex similar like regex?
02:12:43 <zzo38> Can you give some examples of what you might be doing with it?
02:13:26 <alexThinkpad> regex belongs to grammars in theoretical computer science
02:14:07 <alexThinkpad> I think about grammars that r either turing complete or a bit more (half) turing complete than regexes already r
02:14:18 <alexThinkpad> the thing is, u can not do anything with regex
02:15:23 <alexThinkpad> so if there r also other comparable things like regex
02:16:03 <alexThinkpad> they don't need to be better in all than regex, but only for certain use cases
02:16:41 <zzo38> Like what kind of use cases?
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02:24:14 <alexThinkpad> what also would be really good, if u know how to add turing complete (pyhton) code to the regexes to make it then afterwards turing complete
02:24:37 <alexThinkpad> It would be good to have certain sourcecode recepies
02:25:01 <alexThinkpad> and so u don't need something better than regexes
02:25:37 <alexThinkpad> there is software using regex that supports flags and jumps
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02:26:02 <zzo38> PCRE does some things
02:26:08 <alexThinkpad> it might be that this already make this turing complete and if not, it still becomes a little nearer to turing completeness this way
02:28:00 <alexThinkpad> I am using sed, python, grep, vim for doing things with regexes
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02:30:16 <zzo38> I use grep and sed and awk and vim, doing things with regexes, and also sometimes JavaScript
02:30:35 <zzo38> (I have also written a SQLite extension to use PCRE)
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02:34:53 <zzo38> This is one SQL code that uses the extension for PCRE: http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cards.sql
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03:18:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:About]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53562&oldid=30621 * Fizzie * (+153) HTTPS for canonical URL; delink voxelperfect.net link (domain squatters); mention Bytemark (no place in the logo icon to explain).
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04:37:28 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53563&oldid=53060 * Wheatwizard * (+75) /* Interpreters */ Added a link to BrainHack, and implementation language
04:43:56 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53564&oldid=53563 * Wheatwizard * (+15) Put Monads and Nilads as subsections of Tutorial
04:49:29 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53565&oldid=53564 * Wheatwizard * (-150) Moved information relevant to interpreters to the interpreters section, adding links to online interpreters as well
04:59:21 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53566&oldid=53565 * Wheatwizard * (+605) Added comments to the tutorial
05:07:22 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53567&oldid=53566 * Wheatwizard * (+191) Added a CNF to avoid ambiguity
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07:54:31 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53568&oldid=43158 * Jabutosama * (-250)
07:54:46 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53569&oldid=53568 * Jabutosama * (+8)
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10:56:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: in the raw logs like https://esolangs.org/logs/2017-12-12-raw.txt , the second word of the timestamp is in what unit?
10:57:48 <shachaf> fizzie: did you know esolan.gs is available
10:57:58 <shachaf> how come you don't use that one twh
10:58:58 <shachaf> b_jonas: Looks like microseconds? What else would it be?
10:59:18 <fizzie> Yes, it's the microseconds fraction.
10:59:25 <fizzie> Just following codu.org example.
11:00:25 <shachaf> Is the code that generates this public?
11:00:31 <shachaf> What about the proto file?
11:01:20 <fizzie> shachaf: I'll put it to github eventually. At the moment it's in the same repository as some unpublished stuff, because there were useful bits in there already.
11:01:23 <fizzie> bazel and the "single workspace syndrome", you know.
11:02:30 <shachaf> This is one of the big scows of the single repository model.
11:02:54 <fizzie> It seems that people have been gravitating towards the repositories.bzl model of dependency handling in bazel.
11:04:11 <shachaf> Looking it up the first thing I see is a deprecated repository.
11:04:32 <shachaf> Sounds like some secret Google sauce may have been leaked.
11:04:51 <fizzie> I'm trying to remember where the canonical example was.
11:04:58 <shachaf> Is it https://github.com/bazelbuild/rules_go/blob/master/go/private/repositories.bzl ?
11:05:07 <fizzie> https://github.com/jupp0r/prometheus-cpp/blob/master/repositories.bzl looks almost like it, except it's missing the "omit" flags from the last def.
11:05:39 <fizzie> Looks like there's a few different styles.
11:06:15 <fizzie> The one I'm familiar with looks a little like that, except you pass boolean flags to the 'def go_rules_dependencies' controlling which deps it will include or not.
11:06:37 <shachaf> Did you know github.com tar.gz files for a given tag are nondeterministic?
11:06:53 <fizzie> Here's one: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java/blob/master/repositories.bzl
11:06:56 <shachaf> Sometimes it decides to regenerate them and ends up with a different tar file.
11:07:06 <fizzie> I did not know that. That's terrible.
11:08:32 <shachaf> What're all these repositories.bzl things accomplishing?
11:09:37 <fizzie> They let you use someone else's repository without having to manually define all the dependencies it has in your own WORKSPACE file. The omit_X flags (and the 'maybe' trick in rules_go) let you still override them if you want to be in control.
11:10:39 <fizzie> In your own WORKSPACE you'd just load("@someone_else//:repositories.bzl", "someone_else_repositories") someone_else_repositories(omit_something=True)
11:11:59 <shachaf> Maybe I should look for a place that uses this.
11:12:55 <shachaf> Why doesn't GitHub support global search across all repositories?
11:13:20 <shachaf> One might imagine that you could make a pretty nice tool for that sort of thing.
11:13:40 <fizzie> Like some sort of a... search for code? A code search?
11:17:29 <b_jonas> I'm still mad about how Topográf has been driven to stop making maps of Budapest, and all we have is these stupid Cartographia maps that are so much worse in quality
11:17:36 <shachaf> Oh, the thing that wasn't clear to me was that maven_jar defines a repository.
11:17:57 <shachaf> I thought it defined a build target.
11:17:59 <b_jonas> It's been like six years now, but that doesn't help because the city is still here and I still need a fuckign map
11:18:26 <fizzie> Right, that macro is intended to be used in a WORKSPACE, not in a BUILD file.
11:18:30 <shachaf> But now I see that it defines a repository and then you depend on "@repository//jar"
11:18:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: microseconds. ok, thanks
11:18:52 <fizzie> The basic problem is, when you have a workspace rule like http_archive(name = "foo", ...) bazel doesn't really look[*1] at the WORKSPACE file it downloads, so if the build rules in that workspace expect there to be an external repository @bar, they won't work unless you define 'bar' in *your* WORKSPACE. The repositories.bzl trick just makes that a little more painless. [*1] Except nowadays it checks
11:18:58 <fizzie> the workspace name against the name you've given it.
11:20:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: "Why doesn't GitHub support global search across all repositories?" => I think they used to have that. didn't they? at least I heard of multiple people doing searches, but maybe they cloned everything.
11:21:03 <shachaf> Well, even if they did I'd complain because it's not as good as fizzie's hypothetical tool.
11:21:10 <b_jonas> shachaf: in particular, some people have searched for database passwords embedded literally in code, which was some sort of fashion back then, and someone searched for something about constants or whatever
11:21:58 <shachaf> Anyway one time I was using bazel and it gave an error because a tar.gz archive had changed. It turned out github was to blame.
11:22:22 <shachaf> Looks like it's still happening as of Sep: https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/12979
11:23:42 <shachaf> fizzie: Presumably if you have a "real" project at a "real" company, you want to download all the repositories you depend on anyway, so you can build if github or maven or whatever goes down.
11:24:03 <shachaf> In which case I guess you just omit everything and do it yourself?
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11:32:58 <fizzie> Judging from the left-pad fiasco, a lot of "real" companies don't do that. But yeah, if you're doing that you probably won't use the repositories.bzl.
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11:40:31 <shachaf> Perhaps it would be good enough if there was a content-addressed repository that http_archive() etc. could look things up in.
11:40:59 <shachaf> Or maybe you could even put these things inside your repository! But not if you use git.
11:43:30 <shachaf> fizzie: Why isn't FUSE the standard interface for version control systems, anyway?
11:43:41 <shachaf> Isn't actually modifying filese on the filesystem a bit archaic?
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12:10:39 <zseri> found an article about solving a sudoku using SQL: https://www.percona.com/blog/2017/11/22/sudoku-recursive-common-table-expression-solver/
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14:50:00 <b_jonas> I'm careless and ran the wrong command
14:50:19 <b_jonas> then I tried to fix the mess and panicked and ran more wrong commands
14:50:23 <b_jonas> I'm trying to clean up the mess
14:51:34 <b_jonas> I didn't lose any data at least, thanks to the vcs
14:54:42 <Taneb> b_jonas: take a short break, get a glass of water
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15:04:10 <zseri> just uploaded my text table database library: https://github.com/zserik/zsdatab
15:08:38 <zseri> it is a bit esoteric, as it hasn't a SQL frontend, uses simple text files in the backend and uses (mathematic-) set-like table contexts to search and manipulate data.
15:43:48 <b_jonas> zseri: is there docs for it?
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16:07:20 <zseri> but the src/entry.cxx file (the command line frontend) shows the basic usage of tables and contexts
16:08:03 <zseri> transactions are like contexts, but they don't hold data, only the commands that will be applied to them
16:08:53 <zseri> transaction commands also optimize themself by looking at the last 'pushed' command and possible modification of that
16:10:58 <zseri> the header file src/zsdatable.hpp contains the whole public API, but the only function I really described inside it is inner_join, because it's a newer function needed in practical usage
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16:46:47 <Taneb> Ugh, it feels so late
16:47:24 <int-e> move to central europe :P
16:47:37 <int-e> (though a quarter to 6 isn't much better, I suppose)
16:48:30 <Taneb> int-e: my five year plan involves moving to Italy
16:50:16 <Taneb> Plan for the next five years
16:52:10 <int-e> (The last time I had a five year plan was in 1986 to 1989...)
16:52:40 <Taneb> (what was your age in 1986?)
16:52:45 <int-e> ...it didn't end well. (This is referring to GDR (aka Eastern Germany)
16:53:27 <int-e> Let's say I wasn't a teenager yet.
16:53:51 <Taneb> Anyway, yeah, my plan is to work for a few years here, save up a pile of money, then move to my girlfriend's flat in Italy and try to do a PhD near there
16:54:38 <Taneb> I wonder how hard it would be to convince my bank and my employer to let me get paid and save my money in euros...
16:55:20 <zzo38> I read document about OpenID Connect, is there a way to access RDF data with it and/or to use with command-line access and other non-HTML-based access?
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17:28:23 <esowiki> [[WLoop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53570 * Sacchan * (+3611) Created page with "'''WLoop''' (pronounced "double loop") is a [[Turing-complete]] language based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOOP_(programming_language) LOOP] and [https://en.wikipedia.or..."
17:28:47 <esowiki> [[WLoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53571&oldid=53570 * Sacchan * (+99)
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17:33:56 <zseri> zsdatab documentation https://github.com/zserik/zsdatab/blob/master/README.md
17:36:13 <esowiki> [[WLoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53572&oldid=53571 * Sacchan * (+0) /* Example U-functions */
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17:39:49 <zseri> b_jonas: zsdatab doc https://github.com/zserik/zsdatab/blob/master/README.md
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17:54:52 <b_jonas> zseri: ah, so you don't even pretend to take sql-like syntax?
17:55:04 <b_jonas> but instead have some completely different syntaxd
17:56:13 <zseri> I have a simple CLi and I find SQL overly complex, instead I use set-like operations to emulate select statements ...
18:00:19 <zseri> e.g. instead of SQL "SELECT ... WHERE x = 'abc', b = 'dcd'" it uses "ctx.filter("x", "abc").filter("b", "dcd")"
18:01:20 <zseri> or SQL "SELECT WHERE NOT x = 'abc'" -> "ctx.filter("x", "abc").negate()"
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18:06:23 <zseri> and because I use native C++ and would recommend using C++ in zsdatab clients for the interface, I omit quoting errors
18:24:07 <b_jonas> zseri: ok. how do you find the next row with a key higher or lower than a certain value, to iterate on rows in a certain order?
18:26:27 <b_jonas> as in, provided there's CREATE TABLE t(k, w, v); CREATE INDEX i ON t(k ASC, w ASC); how do you find SELECT w, v FROM t WHERE ? = k AND ? < w ORDER BY w LIMIT 1;
18:27:21 <b_jonas> supposing there are also rows in the table already
18:29:33 <zseri> you must go through the data buffer manually. 1. use 'tab.data()' to get the buffer. 2. use c++11 for(auto &&i : tab.data()) for iterating and tab.get_metadata().get_field_nr(...) to find the column nr
18:44:09 <zseri> b_jonas: https://gist.github.com/zserik/911ad922cec6c9b95269102523efdbf8
18:47:30 <b_jonas> zseri: so you have to query all the SELECT w,v FROM t WHERE ? = k; and then process it by hand. ok.
18:49:56 <zseri> I had good luck that I kept the zsdatab::metadata.serialize method public
18:50:02 <HackEgo> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz
18:50:28 <fizzie> Should I add my font there?
18:52:30 <int-e> grr github... a lost cookie is no excuse for losing the ticket text I just typed.
18:57:50 <\oren\_> hmm, this line of perl is a little too perlly
18:57:53 <\oren\_> $svnrev = $1 if +(grep /Revision/,split(/\n/,`svn info`))[0] =~ m/(\d+)/;
18:59:22 <\oren\_> but I'm not sure how I can make it less perlly
18:59:49 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
19:00:25 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e "s|$| , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font|" wisdom/font
19:00:31 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's a 4x6 pixel font (with 3x5 characters) I made for the robotfindskitten TI-86 port, and its website.
19:00:49 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/rfk86/ should be rendered in it, if web fonts still work like they used to years ago.
19:02:26 <fizzie> I don't think it's especially original or clever, though I still like the 's'.
19:04:25 <HackEgo> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font
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21:06:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
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21:07:38 <oerjan> it doesn't work with fizzie's sed commands :(
21:11:28 <HackEgo> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font
21:20:50 <fizzie> I assume I should be using the canonical commands, I just can never remember them.
21:22:10 <fizzie> I mean, how are you supposed to remember something like what's the difference between learn_append and learn_append2?
21:48:57 <oerjan> `cat bin/learn_append2
21:49:23 <oerjan> `url bin/learn_append2
21:49:23 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/learn_append2
21:50:48 <oerjan> `` cat -v bin/learn_append2
21:50:49 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash^M \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//')^M \ echo "$1" >>"wisdom/$topic"^M \ echo "I knew that."
21:51:06 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/learn_append
21:52:08 <oerjan> `doag bin/learn_append2
21:52:18 <HackEgo> 4884:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> sed -e \'s/^M//g\' bin/learn_append > bin/learn_append2 \ 4883:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> sed -i -e \'s/^M//g\' bin/learn_append > bin/learn_append2
21:53:08 <oerjan> `doag bin/learn_append
21:53:14 <HackEgo> 6445:2015-12-22 <olsnër> ` sed -i \'/^topic/ s/\\$.*$/"&"/\' bin/learn_append \ 5047:2014-10-10 <oerjän> sed -i \'6s/[*]/"\\n/\' bin/learn_append \ 5046:2014-10-10 <oerjän> sed -i \'6cecho -n "Learned \'"\'"\'$topic\'"\'"\': *cat "wisdom/$topic"\' bin/learn_append \ 5045:2014-10-10 <oerjän> revert \ 5044:2014-10-10 <oerjän> sed -i \'6cech
21:54:16 <oerjan> fizzie: PROBLEM SOLVED
21:54:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
21:55:20 <oerjan> it _looks_ like it was just left over from some attempt to fix the original.
21:57:51 <oerjan> that second line looks a bit misguided.
21:58:53 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
21:59:17 <oerjan> `learn_append A test is a test, in jest, in jest.
21:59:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'test': test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available. test is a test, in jest, in jest.
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22:00:58 <oerjan> `sled bin/learn_append//2s,s/.*;,,
22:01:00 <HackEgo> bin/learn_append//#!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
22:01:30 <oerjan> `learn_append A test is a test, in jest, in jest.
22:01:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'a': A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters. test is a test, in jest, in jest.
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22:45:34 <esowiki> [[Tick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53573&oldid=53082 * Rdebath * (-21) Shorter HW and interpreter.
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23:40:02 <lambdabot> CYUL 122300Z 01016G22KT 3SM -SN DRSN FEW012 OVC020 M08/M10 A2944 RMK SF2SC6 SLP973
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23:54:31 <lambdabot> EGLL 122350Z AUTO 20009KT 9999 -RA SCT027 BKN031 BKN044 06/05 Q1004 TEMPO 6000 -RA BKN012
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00:05:09 <fizzie> I need to say something with all kinds of formatting, to test a thing. It should even have background colors.
00:09:33 <boily> mysterious V format.
00:09:52 <fizzie> The reverse video I didn't do.
00:10:09 <boily> fizziello. will you put the logs in the /topic?
00:10:13 <fizzie> Because https://modern.ircdocs.horse/formatting.html said it's a little unclear.
00:10:18 <fizzie> As soon as they're ready.
00:11:07 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
00:12:33 <fizzie> There's about five TODOs to address before I think the logs would be ready enough to publicize.
00:14:33 <fizzie> (1) Add a blurb (probably at the bottom of the index page) with explanations and links to other logs; (2) start the log-server as a service rather than just running it in a screen manually; (3) read the config from a file instead of it being hardcoded; (4) publish the source code; and (5) make the CSS not *horribly* broken on mobile.
00:14:33 <boily> have you heard of our lord and saviour Cucumber, of the Holy Acceptance Test-Driven Development?
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00:21:06 <fizzie> Oh, tests would be nice too.
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00:54:31 <boily> fungot: are your nostrils dæmoniac?
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01:09:27 <fizzie> 5 done-ish. It's not *good* by any means, but I added extra line spacing in the index for @media (pointer:coarse), and then added a @media (max-width: 640px) breakpoint on the logs page to switch to a "time <nick>\nmessage\n\n"-style layout instead.
01:09:43 <fizzie> There's still one CSS trick I've not managed, and that is to have in the desktop experience, simultaneously, (a) the message body section take up any extra space without scripting, (b) the messages to line-wrap aligned to where they start, and (c) the end result be copy-pasteable without horrible extra newlines.
01:09:48 <fizzie> I ended up doing (a) & (b) by "display: flex", but now there's newlines everywhere. When I tried non-flexboxy ways which did (c) well, either I had to specify a width or the lines would wrap to the left edge.
01:09:58 <fizzie> Webdev is hard and unpleasant. :/
01:12:27 <shachaf> fizzie: The one-page version is much more convenient.
01:14:19 <fizzie> It was behaving real sluggishly for me. I can add an "all" view, but I think I'll still keep the default as the most recent year.
01:15:49 <shachaf> Is it going to have codu.org's stalker mode?
01:18:49 <fizzie> That's a v2 thing. Maybe? I didn't check yet how that's implemented, though I think I saw some XHR being involved.
01:19:49 <fizzie> Guess it should be websockets these days.
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08:12:34 <esowiki> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53574&oldid=53520 * Quintopia * (-25) golf python interpreter
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08:15:37 <esowiki> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53575&oldid=53574 * Quintopia * (-1) just one more byte, i promise
08:23:20 <esowiki> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53576&oldid=53575 * Quintopia * (-20) okay a few more bytes off python interpreter
08:25:29 <esowiki> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53577&oldid=53576 * Quintopia * (-3) okay i swear these are the last two bytes for the night
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10:22:40 <Taneb> Whoa #esoteric is 15?
10:24:40 <Taneb> shachaf: the topic disagrees it would seem
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11:17:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: "how are you supposed to remember the difference between learn_append and learn_append2?" => you just have to remember that wisdoms are stored as plain text files in the wisdom directory, lowercased and with a trailing s stripped from their name, and the `? rules of wisdom
11:17:14 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
11:17:42 <b_jonas> then you can manipulate them with ordinary unix tools. this is the whole point of using plain text for all sort of source files and configuration files, that we can use the same tools for each of them
11:18:04 <b_jonas> you can make custom tools if you prefer, but you're not required to use other people's custom tools
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11:26:40 <fizzie> b_jonas: Manipulating them with standard tools is exactly what I do, but people complain I don't use the tools.
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11:28:13 <shachaf> `slwd rules of wisdom//s/should/they &/
11:28:15 <HackEgo> rules of wisdom//unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
11:29:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
11:29:18 <HackEgo> cat: bin/learn_append2: No such file or directory
11:29:30 <shachaf> fizzie: seems p. easy to remember to me hth
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11:38:18 <b_jonas> do we have a command for (1) looking up a wisdom from name and returning its filename, or (2) doing normalization on the name of a new wisdom and returning the filename you should create it as?
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11:59:42 <boily> b_jellonas. I think we settled on normalization hth
12:01:31 <b_jonas> boily: we didn't settle. someone changed the handling of leading backtick just half a year ago or something.
12:08:16 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
12:10:39 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
12:10:46 <b_jonas> that applies to case (1) only I think
12:11:07 <b_jonas> who knows, maybe next time we'll install a stemmer or something
12:11:20 <b_jonas> that would make hand-normalization pretty much impossible
12:14:51 <b_jonas> oh, a tutorial for making up misattributed quotes: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=3225
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12:39:07 <esowiki> [[WLoop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53578&oldid=53572 * Sacchan * (+135)
12:39:27 <esowiki> [[User:Sacchan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53579&oldid=43739 * Sacchan * (+12)
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15:22:33 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
15:22:39 <fizzie> Might as well have it there.
15:23:51 <fizzie> Not sure if the canonical links in the topic should be https://.
15:24:46 <fizzie> It is set up like that in the wiki configuration, but AFAIK that only affects two things: the links in the recent changes posted by the bot, and the links included in any automated emails.
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15:34:22 <Taneb> b_jonas: HackEgo is completely unreasonable
15:38:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53580&oldid=49124 * Fizzie * (+42) /* #Esoteric */ Add local logs link.
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16:08:19 <b_jonas> So in github, to create a pull request, I still have to clone the repository to a github account, right?
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16:15:09 <Taneb> b_jonas: if you don't have write permission to the repo, according to Github's help doc
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17:57:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53581&oldid=53580 * Ais523 * (-236) /* Information */ rm section; not much point in supporting an esolang section on Stack Overflow Documentation when the entire site has shut down
18:08:45 <\oren\_> how to delete all files in /tmp/ belonging to me?
18:09:40 <zseri> rm -rf /tmp/ as you?
18:10:00 <\oren\_> zseri: that will also delete files that I have write access to
18:10:28 <zseri> find /tmp/ -user ... -rm ?
18:10:51 <\oren\_> hmmm find... yeah I'll look at teh manpage
18:11:45 <\oren\_> find -maxdepth 1 -user oren -delete
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18:18:38 <zseri> I should introduce a cursor class into zsdatab for context browsing, e.g. access of fields by name in each row
18:19:03 <int-e> fizzie: hmm, dead link?
18:23:12 * int-e was bitten by an outdated entry in /etc/hosts ...
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18:52:52 <HackEgo> 303) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 601) <Darth_Cliche> There's British KFC? Kent
18:57:28 <int-e> Monday's Freefall was nice.
18:58:58 <int-e> (I liked the twist on "we're the worst people to do it")
19:15:41 <esowiki> [[CJam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53582&oldid=53021 * Nooodl * (-2) fix attribution
19:27:09 <oerjan> fizzie: looked at the new logs index, somehow all the months show as overlapping each other.
19:27:30 <oerjan> (probably can blame IE somehow.)
19:28:33 * oerjan falls back to address bar editing, which is how he usually accesses the logs anyway
19:28:43 <fizzie> oerjan: CSS is hard. :/ I probably shouldn't have even attempted to make it use several columns, I was just annoyed at the lots of wasted screen real estate.
19:29:24 <fizzie> Well, it's not really columns. It's a flexbox.
19:29:42 <fizzie> https://caniuse.com/#search=flexbox says IE 11 but "Partial support is due to large amount of bugs present (see known issues)".
19:30:23 <fizzie> Which version of IE are you interested in?
19:31:03 <oerjan> well i'm using 11, which is the final one.
19:36:10 <fizzie> Looking at those known issues, maybe I can make some tweaks. Wonder if there's good free ways to test with IE.
19:45:57 <oerjan> it's not that big of a deal for me, anyway
19:49:08 <\oren\_> fizzie: you can get a free windows 10 virtual box on microsoft website
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19:53:39 <oerjan> <fizzie> b_jonas: Manipulating them with standard tools is exactly what I do, but people complain I don't use the tools. <-- to be more precise, what i complain about is any kind of edit where i cannot see from what happens in the channel whether you messed something up. which is why the HackEgo tools all display the resulting file.
19:57:07 <oerjan> (and for wisdoms, whether there was one previously.)
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20:23:21 <wob_jonas> fizzie: a next/previous link in the HTML version of the new logs might make sense
20:26:35 <int-e> hmm, today gog speaks russian with me
20:31:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Minin * New user account
20:35:28 <int-e> a drm free game shop
20:39:41 <int-e> it seems that their front page is served from a cache which isn't good at guessing languages. it's amusing.
20:42:44 <wob_jonas> youtube is sometimes stupid at finding musical numbers from phrases in their lyrics. you have to use the title.
20:43:30 <wob_jonas> if I search for 'oda is eljőnek szüzek szép leányok' directly in youtube, it finds random nonsense, even though if I search for that in the main google search, it knows which song that is from
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21:01:55 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Agreed, was going to add one.
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21:21:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53583&oldid=53560 * Minin * (+262) /* Introductions */
21:22:05 <esowiki> [[User:Minin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53584 * Minin * (+13) Created page with "me me big boy"
21:22:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:Minin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53585 * Minin * (+3) Created page with "no."
21:23:51 <wob_jonas> also, I wonder if it would be worth splitting to fewer pages, not one per day, but like one per week or one per two weeks
21:25:49 <HackEgo> esowiki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:32:46 <int-e> fizzie: fwiw, I like the 1 day granularity.
21:36:06 <oerjan> <int-e> hmm, today gog speaks russian with me <-- * briefly reads that as "dog"
21:36:23 <fizzie> Days are sort of the convention. That's not to say I couldn't offer other granularities as well, e.g. as /weeks.html for the index and /YYYY-wNN.{html,txt} for the logs.
21:39:10 <fizzie> They're actually saved as logs/Y/M/D.pb(.br) with no padding of dates, which I kind of regret, because ls sorts the months "1 10 11 12 2 3 ..." and so on. (There's probably an option.)
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21:46:50 <int-e> fizzie: I'm kind of tempted to suggest marking the days of the week, thus: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/e.html
21:47:53 <int-e> (I did that manually so I stopped after 1 1/2 months)
21:51:27 <wob_jonas> fizzie: longer files would help searches
21:52:22 <esowiki> [[User:Minin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53586&oldid=53584 * Minin * (+42)
21:52:54 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53587 * Minin * (+57) Created page with "kappa is a language coded by humans, this page is a w.i.p"
21:58:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * K1nzy * New user account
21:59:55 * ais523 vaguely wonders why IRC documentation would use a .horse domain name
22:01:03 * int-e wonders whether ais523 has looked at Countercall in the past month.
22:02:11 <ais523> int-e: I look at recent changes sometimes but can easily miss changes to my watchlist as a result
22:02:12 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Countercall
22:02:23 <int-e> (I'm still annoyed by how difficult it is to reason about, despite being obviously non-TC ;-) )
22:02:27 <ais523> nope, nobody's changed it
22:02:32 <ais523> also I'm not convinced it's non-TC
22:02:42 <int-e> I know, hence the smiley.
22:02:45 <ais523> if it is non-TC, it's for a bizarre reason that isn't shared with most other languages
22:02:51 <int-e> In fact you state the opposite on the wiki page.
22:02:54 <ais523> as opposed to one of the usual ones
22:03:16 <ais523> like, some sort of chicken-and-egg style problem where to do anything in the language you need to do something else first
22:03:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah yes, that crazy language
22:03:52 <int-e> Anyway, the thing still bugs me.
22:04:09 <wob_jonas> int-e: what? how is it "obviously non-TC"?
22:04:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: I really can't make up my mind on whether it's TC
22:05:03 <wob_jonas> sometimes I think it's non-TC and there's probably an easy proof for that but it's hard to find
22:06:05 <ais523> int-e: I thought about countercall a bit because of the interview
22:06:11 <ais523> but haven't come to conclusions
22:06:20 <ais523> I don't think this is something I could do a TCness proof for in my head
22:06:24 <ais523> (which is my preferred way to do them)
22:07:06 <wob_jonas> yeah. I did a proof that dofuck is TC in my head, and only has the very minimal limitations with IO that are obvious, but never written them down
22:07:22 <wob_jonas> also some proofs about my messed up Amycus with certain primitives removed
22:07:26 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53588&oldid=53587 * Minin * (+436)
22:08:01 <wob_jonas> but in the case of Amycus, finding out that the originally intended language is much less of an esolang made me abandon that
22:08:43 <wob_jonas> I also know that the language I want to create is TC, and more, it can simulate a pointer machine "efficiently", with only polylog factor of time slowdown
22:08:48 <int-e> ais523: did you know that the typed lambda calculus is not TC even if you add a family of fixed point combinators? (a family, because you may need one for every type.)
22:09:28 <wob_jonas> but that one is easier, because I'm deliberately creating that language to be expressive, unlike Countercall which you deliberately define to be hard to use
22:09:41 <ais523> int-e: no, in fact that would greatly surprise me
22:09:54 <ais523> is the problem that there are only finitely many functions of any given type?
22:10:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: countercall was aiming for the edge between TC and not
22:10:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: as in the typed lambda calculus with no algebraic data type?
22:10:14 <ais523> but I think it hit it more precisely than I was expecting
22:10:40 <int-e> (Richard Statman proved that the halting problem is still, somehow, decidable in that calculus. (The paper is called "On The Lambda Y Calculus"))
22:11:07 <int-e> wob_jonas: yes, no algebraic datatypes
22:11:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: you can simulate sum and product types in typed lambda calculus
22:11:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, but I want recursive types too
22:11:32 <ais523> ah right, recursive types are more power than typed lambda calculus has
22:11:50 <int-e> Adding any non-empty recursive type (and fixed point combinators) will make it TC.
22:12:09 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, I know, I wrote a loop combinator that way
22:13:17 <zemhill> web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47
22:13:20 <zemhill> web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47 (--)
22:13:23 <wob_jonas> hmm wait, maybe that's not just one type
22:13:29 <zemhill> web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47 (--)
22:14:32 <wob_jonas> but I guess you could just use one recursive type that's a union of everything, simulate a weakly typed language, and then, if you prefer, simulate a strongly typed language in that weakly typed language
22:14:37 <int-e> natural numbers (ala data Nat = Z | S Nat) suffice
22:15:11 <wob_jonas> http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/olvashato/t2n.olv -- yeah, that's not one type, that's in fact two type constructors with two type parameters each. sorry.
22:15:27 <ais523> huh, someone's playing BF Joust
22:16:43 <wob_jonas> and yeah, I also use the built-in integer number types to do useful things with that loop
22:17:03 <wob_jonas> although lists aren't technically necessary
22:19:52 <wob_jonas> I wish rust had an attribute to tell that a given type parameter in a generic fn definition is a phantom parameter, as in that changing it won't change the generated code. the compiler could check this and allow it only if it can prove that it's indeed phantom in that sense.
22:20:11 <wob_jonas> of course this is hard to define precisely without knowing how rust represents certain types.
22:20:42 <zemhill> oerjan.hmmm: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
22:20:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: does PhantomData do what you want?
22:21:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: PhantomData does something else
22:21:20 <ais523> I know what PhantomData does but not really what you want
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22:21:29 <ais523> do you mean "uninspected", as in the code just copies around the value without looking at it?
22:21:38 <ais523> oerjan: this reminds me, has there been a new hilltopper in 2017 at all?
22:21:42 <ais523> I used to do one a year
22:21:51 <ais523> but I'm out of ideas and am worried that BF Joust has been solved
22:21:55 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategy
22:22:02 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
22:22:09 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53589&oldid=53588 * Minin * (+549)
22:22:33 <oerjan> i think things got haywire after that beat-everything-on-the-hill program someone wrote
22:22:54 <ais523> right, there was some sort of automatic winning program generator, wasn't there?
22:22:58 <quintopia> i'm so gld they did because if they didn't i was going to
22:23:00 <ais523> which means you'd have to keep source secret in the future
22:23:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, it can't even copy around such values, because it would have to know at least the size of that type for that, and we can't express a constraint that implies the size of a type, except possibly in a degenerate way that only zero or one types satisfy
22:23:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: it can copy around pointers to them though
22:23:37 <quintopia> ais523: actually, you wouldn't need secret source if you either a) added some source of randomness or b) made the hill infinite
22:23:43 <ais523> like, with a Box<T> you don't care what the T is
22:23:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: it could copy pointers, yes, but it's also possible that it doesn't do even that
22:23:58 <ais523> quintopia: I think a) would ruin the game
22:24:08 <ais523> and b) doesn't really work because it'd still only have finitely many programs at any given point
22:24:47 <quintopia> ais523: b) works because you could submit a family of programs, all similar, such that it was impossible for the same strategy to beat all of them (i think)
22:25:16 <oerjan> well we already constructed one such family
22:25:18 <ais523> quintopia: yes but you need a huge number of them
22:25:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53590&oldid=53583 * K1nzy * (+193) /* Introductions */
22:25:30 <quintopia> but you could generate them automatically
22:25:30 <ais523> I constructed them a while back, I think
22:25:38 <quintopia> it's a different game, but it isn't broken
22:25:38 <ais523> also it's only to avoid being beaten on all tape lengths and polarities
22:25:49 <ais523> specifically they win on tape length 10
22:26:22 <quintopia> and several hundred programs is not a problem for an infinite hill, is it?
22:26:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, so what does it guarantee exactly?
22:26:39 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53591&oldid=53589 * K1nzy * (-654)
22:27:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: does it guarantee that against any fixed program, at least one of your family on at least one polarity will not lose on tape length 10?
22:27:25 <wob_jonas> several hundred doesn't sound too bad
22:27:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: that in the group of 768 programs, against any fixed program, at least one of those 768 programs will beat it on tape length 10 for any specific polarity
22:28:17 <quintopia> ais523: why would a source of randomness ruin the game? for instance, why wouldn't "bf joust except every tape cell starts with value x, with x chosen uniformly at random from 0 to 255" be a bad game?
22:29:29 <ais523> quintopia: that proposal might not ruin things (apart from the small random chance every program would have of dying if the same rule applied to the flags), but in general randomness allows you to set decoys much more easily than you can deal with them
22:29:39 <wob_jonas> I mean, you might try to start such a construction by taking all possible strategies a program can do in the first 100000 steps, which would be like 5**2**100001 distinguishable strategies, and then construct a program against each
22:29:46 <wob_jonas> then you'd have a rather large infinite family
22:29:51 <moony> BF Jousting? Why not. *begins research*
22:30:33 <ais523> wob_jonas: there's a time limit
22:30:40 <ais523> so there are only finitely many possible BF Joust programs in theory
22:30:41 <wob_jonas> and since you keep writing proofs about two-counter machines, which have a double-exponential slowdown from sane computing models, I don't think it's strange that I think of that when you mention a finite family
22:30:42 <quintopia> ais523: re: the flags, just make it so that winning/dying involves having the flag set to x+128 instead of zero
22:30:44 <ais523> (the space is very large tohugh)
22:30:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, exactly, the time limit is 100000 turns. that's what I said.
22:31:20 <ais523> quintopia: so what you have now is equivalent to BF Joust where [ and ] test for a random (but consistent) number rather than 0
22:31:24 <ais523> writing a program for that seems painful
22:31:52 <ais523> like, even if you know where the enemy flag is, zeroing it would require quite a lot of code
22:32:14 <wob_jonas> and there probably aren't much less than 2**c**100001 different strategies for some not too small constant c if you allow exponentially large program source codes
22:32:23 <ais523> !zjoust runner (>)*8(>[-])*21
22:32:23 <zemhill> ais523.runner: points -12.48, score 10.90, rank 44/47
22:32:26 <shachaf> This is a nice idea for a self-modifying game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca5BYKRVXHM
22:32:28 <quintopia> would you rather the initial tape value just didn't apply to the flags?
22:32:34 <ais523> whereas a simple attack is trivial to write
22:32:46 <ais523> quintopia: still doesn't help much
22:33:00 <quintopia> wait, why is it a good thing that a simple attack is trivial to write?
22:33:03 <ais523> the fact is that [-] is much simpler and shorter than any routine for setting a cell to some fixed value for which you don't even know what it is
22:33:06 <quintopia> isn't it supposed to be hard to win?
22:33:18 <ais523> and I imagine that in practice every program would have 256 different variants, copy-and-pasted
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22:33:28 <ais523> also, the skill of BF Joust is about exploiting patterns in what your opponents do
22:33:39 <ais523> just look at growth2, for example
22:33:40 <esowiki> [[Kappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53592&oldid=53591 * K1nzy * (+441)
22:33:59 <quintopia> wait wait...why would it not help if we had "bf joust except that every tape value /except the flags/ is uniformly random x"?
22:34:02 <ais523> if very basic things require very complex code, the patterns will be hard to exploit because they'll be complex in your own right
22:34:32 <wob_jonas> that would ruin the beauty and simplicity of bfjoust
22:34:50 * int-e eyes wob_jonas suspiciously.
22:34:52 <ais523> quintopia: because in that case, decoys don't really work because most code won't be able to distinguish them from the original value anyway
22:34:54 <quintopia> wob_jonas: beauty+simplicity=solved. the whole goal here is to ruin it in some small way
22:35:11 <quintopia> ais523: decoys wouldn't be an important strategy in this new game
22:35:40 <ais523> well, what /would/ be an important strategy?
22:35:55 <ais523> nearly all the attack innovations are designed to deal with decoys
22:36:03 <int-e> So what would be a strategy? Go forward 10 steps, and start clearing?
22:36:31 <wob_jonas> also that's a search space of like 257**28 different starting patterns, although the server would probably only do a statistical test on a set of starting patterns chosen crypto randomly, but still, there might be a lot of pairs of programs that beat each other very close to 1/2 the time, and that would be hard to judge
22:36:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53593&oldid=53550 * K1nzy * (+12) /* Non-alphabetic */
22:36:34 <quintopia> turtle would still be viable. defense would still be viable. a lot of other things would require innovation from scratch.
22:36:51 <int-e> Basically the whole art of defense would probably be lost... and there's no reasonable way of guessing the tape length anymore.
22:38:25 <quintopia> well if everyone abandons decoys...it would be possible to check tape length by looking at tape cells and seeing if they have the same value. it's slower, but maybe that's a good thing.
22:38:54 <quintopia> then it becomes useful to modify the tape cells to be slightly different from their sstarting values, and decoys come back
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22:40:05 <ais523> quintopia: well what probably happens is that people write 256 different versions of their code and just change between them based on the second tape element
22:40:25 <ais523> you can't practically interfere with that; a fast rush program could do so in current BF Joust but you can't write fast rush programs in this variant because they can't safely move fast enough
22:41:06 <quintopia> okay here's a weird idea for a game-that-totally-isn't-bf-joust: the jousters start with opposite values of zero and opposite flag heights. what A thinks is zero, B thinks is 128, and while A thinks its flag is zeroed, B thinks A's flag is 128. And vice versa.
22:41:42 <ais523> what are the values in between?
22:42:27 <quintopia> ais523: idunno. maybe they alternate between 64 and -64
22:42:54 <ais523> I think a key strategic point of BF Joust is the fact that a cell without a decoy is very easy to skip past
22:42:56 <wob_jonas> quintopia: in L:TG, the players number slots from the opposite direction, so when you can reference slot 0 the easiest and slot 1 the next easiest, those are harder for your opponent to reference
22:43:42 <wob_jonas> quintopia: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering
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22:48:29 <quintopia> ais523: so what if all the cells between are set to 64 or -64 (alternating) but there is a new conditional {} that detects either of those values specifically.
22:49:13 <ais523> it's getting more complex but starting to be maybe viable
22:49:17 <ais523> I still prefer the original game I think though
22:50:05 <ais523> come to think of it, you can just make the in-between cells 64 for both programs, making - for one program the same as + for the other
22:51:16 <wob_jonas> but then you want to think of that as renormalized by shifting all values with -64 and modifying the loop statements
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22:52:14 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's basically BF Joust except that the flags start at 64 and you win by changing them to -64
22:52:26 <ais523> actually, come to think of it
22:52:34 <ais523> stealth programs do way too well in this variant
22:52:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: sort of. you also have two extra statements
22:52:48 <ais523> you just set your own flag to look the same as the filler on the tape
22:53:27 <ais523> and the only way the opponent can stop that is by either a fast rush (those things are typically easy to stop), or by adjusting every filler element by 64 to see if it's actually a flag in disguise
22:53:40 <ais523> whereas stealth programs in regular BF Joust have to constantly stay on their flag to avoid losing
22:53:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: you still have another statement, don't you?
22:54:02 <wob_jonas> one that tests for exactly the value you have to attain in the goal square
22:54:25 <quintopia> ais523: yeah i was thinking the same about making them all 64, except i would allow both the sieve and kettle polarities. there shouldn't be a way to tell the difference between polarity and flag height by testing
22:54:31 <ais523> but that still takes 128 cycles
22:54:59 <ais523> quintopia: the only reason sieve and kettle exist is so that players don't have to write their programs both ways round to see which is better
22:55:12 <ais523> in retrospect, it'd have worked better to start flags at 100 or so and break the symmetry that way
22:56:16 <quintopia> ais523: oh but they do so much more than that. it makes it so you have to optimize your program to work best on the sum of both polarities rather than just one of the two
22:56:27 <wob_jonas> I was thinking about games that are both multiplayer classic german-style board games, but at the same time their visible state can be written in a small enough space that you could play them easily in IRC with an IRC bot handling the game rules but only ordinary IRC clients on the player's side
22:56:34 <wob_jonas> some classical card games are technically like that
22:56:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: also, their hidden state needs to be player-specific
22:56:55 <wob_jonas> whereas games with rectangular boards typically aren't like that
22:57:08 <wob_jonas> because you need to draw a large rectangular board that's hard to put in one irc line
22:57:08 <ais523> like, it's hard to do something like poker over IRC if you only have one deck
22:57:20 <ais523> because how do you stop people drawing the same cards as each other?
22:57:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: the irc bot can handle the hidden state, but it's even better to have games where there's no state hidden from just one player, only randomness that's hidden equally from all players
22:57:59 <quintopia> okay not eurogames. i've played apples to apples cards against humanity and seen mafia played with a bot. there's no reason that basically any game that doesn't require complicated art work couldn't work the same
22:58:42 <wob_jonas> a game that I think would work well is Niagara, which has a really small state and no hidden state at all
22:58:56 <wob_jonas> but requires at least three players, at least four preferred, which is sort of a drawback
22:59:29 <quintopia> i can think of a few games that have those properties
22:59:41 <quintopia> but i don't see what's wrong with player-specific hidden state?
23:00:03 <wob_jonas> quintopia: player-specific hidden state can work too, sure, like in poker
23:00:24 <ais523> player-specific hidden state is fine, you just need it to be independent really
23:00:32 <ais523> i.e. correlations between the hidden states are hard to set up without a bot
23:00:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: but I did say there'd be a bot
23:00:56 <ais523> I think it's more interesting to have games you could play without
23:01:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: the bot can be fancy, only the UI the players have to install can't be, it must work with any plain IRC client on their side
23:01:03 <ais523> there are some zero-hidden-state games like chess
23:01:41 <wob_jonas> and yes, chess definitely works, people have been playing correspondence chat way before irc existed
23:02:04 <quintopia> there is a framework for them: https://github.com/Zarthus/irc-games-bot
23:02:14 <LKoen> well, in your defense, people have been playing correspondence chat way before chess existed
23:03:50 <LKoen> most hidden state issues can be solved with hash functions, but it can make the game tedious
23:04:06 <wob_jonas> LKoen: yes, but you need either a trusted bot or a special client for that
23:04:07 <quintopia> why the frameworks hate? it seems awfully useful to be able to add a new game by just adding a small amount of code to an existing bot designed for the purpose
23:04:21 <wob_jonas> you can't expect people to compute cryptographically safe functions in their head
23:04:31 <LKoen> oh, yes, but the bot can be offline
23:04:56 <LKoen> and unless there is money involve in the game, you're probably fine with something as unsafe as md5
23:04:58 <wob_jonas> quintopia: because the irc protocol is so simple that you can do that without a framework, a framework usually just makes it harder in the "now I have two problems" way
23:05:16 <wob_jonas> LKoen: doesn't matter, people don't complain md5 in their head either
23:05:23 <quintopia> wob_jonas: sounds like you've used some bad frameworks :)
23:05:29 <wob_jonas> you need a real computer, and these days a very cheap real computer can compute secure hashes too
23:06:09 <wob_jonas> quintopia: yes, my work involves computer stuff, including trying to work with programs co-workers write
23:07:15 <fizzie> oerjan: I think I fixed the IE11 thing. At least this IE11 screenshotting website (which originally showed them overlapping, like you said) now renders right.
23:07:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: by the way, about that cryptographical stuff I was asking about, I understand now that people use spihash when a birthday attack isn't a problem, because then you can get away with half as long a hash then normally, and the 64 bits of hash tables seems enough at least to avoid hash table performance degradation attacks, but
23:08:21 <ais523> wob_jonas: "attacks, but"
23:08:40 <wob_jonas> (1) I think people are also abusing siphash for things where, although you can indeed get away with a half-sized hash because birthday attacks aren't a problem, 64 bits seems suspiciously slow, and
23:09:02 <ais523> that's not enough text to have been cut off :-P
23:10:24 <ais523> but either something very weird is going on or you're just screwing me
23:10:33 <ais523> or one of us got disconnected when you were using newline as punctuation
23:10:36 <wob_jonas> (2) I still don't understand why a 64 bit long hash would allow a different construction and be fundamentally cheaper than any ordinary 256 bit hmac
23:10:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm just delibeartely breaking text to multiple lines so that I don't get cut off
23:10:59 <wob_jonas> and I'm typing slowly and thinking in between what to say
23:11:04 <wob_jonas> and not adding sentence boundaries
23:11:23 <ais523> I use newline as punctuation sometimes but normally I think of the rest of the sentence first
23:11:39 <wob_jonas> Also I write sentences ending with a conjunction to make it clear that I have more to add.
23:11:41 <ais523> or press it by accident trying to hit backspace, that happens too
23:12:09 <wob_jonas> Yes, I should probably try to add sentence breaks instead.
23:12:31 <wob_jonas> So anyway, I still only get part of what this whole siphash thing is about.
23:13:10 <wob_jonas> Even if there are valid uses, it still seems to me like it's overhyped and overused and will bite some careless people in the back.
23:13:43 <wob_jonas> But then, crypto is always like that. Careless people will write bad code,.
23:15:56 <pikhq> wob_jonas: The 64-bit hash thing in SipHash is actually not what buys them *radically* better performance.
23:16:18 <wob_jonas> pikhq: yes, that's what point (b) is about.
23:16:45 <pikhq> Rather, what buys them better performance is they're trying to get properties out of the function that are much cheaper.
23:16:46 <wob_jonas> How can it have radically better performance if it's just a hmac that's a quarter as long as sha256-hmac, unless it is actually broken,
23:17:07 <wob_jonas> or has some sort of weaker guarantee besides being one quarter the size that I really don't understand.
23:17:31 <pikhq> They try to guarantee that, given hash(x, k), where x is the message and k is the key, you don't know anything about k, or anything about hash(y, k).
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23:17:39 <wob_jonas> pikhq: that's exactly my problem. I can't believe you can get free lunch by that. Something must be wrong about what they think.
23:18:03 <pikhq> SHA, and by extension HMAC-SHA, tries to guarantee that you cannot find x, y such that hash(x) == hash(y).
23:19:24 <pikhq> SipHash does not guarantee no collisions, it only guarantees you cannot discover the hash of something without knowing the key, and that you can't find the key.
23:19:51 <pikhq> But given the key, it seems it'd actually be rather easy to produce collisions.
23:19:59 <wob_jonas> pikhq: they try to guarantee a bit more about siphash. they try to guarantee that even if you can send x to query hash(x,k) from an adversary with a hidden k, you can know nothing about hash(y,k) for any y that you haven't sent in a query yet
23:20:17 <pikhq> That's what I said.
23:20:25 <pikhq> If you know hash(x, k) you can't know hash(y, k).
23:20:39 <wob_jonas> pikhq: and I think if you guarantee that AND the hash is 256-bit long, not just 64 bits, then that implies that you can't find a collision
23:20:54 <pikhq> I'm unclear on that.
23:21:10 <wob_jonas> ok, maybe it only guarantees that you can't find a collision if you don't know k
23:21:54 <pikhq> It's also really worth knowing the particular context that SipHash is intended for.
23:22:09 <wob_jonas> can we have something in between the two, for signing messages with a hidden key where a birthday attack isn't a problem, but with a 128 bit hash?
23:22:28 <wob_jonas> pikhq: what is the context? is it only to avoid hash table performance degradation?
23:22:46 <pikhq> The main one is to avoid hash table performance degradation from active attackers.
23:23:20 <pikhq> Which explains its small output: larger output would buy you nothing, and cost you more to compute.
23:24:26 <wob_jonas> So is the speed gain because of this weakened guarantee, where if you knew k you could break the hash, or is it not because of that, but only from the quarter size output?
23:24:46 <pikhq> It's because of both of those.
23:25:37 <wob_jonas> I'll probably just be cautious because I don't understand the crypto enough, and just not use siphash directly , except possibly through the ready-made hash table libraries or programs.
23:25:58 <wob_jonas> As long as I don't need much performance, I can get away with using a slower hash function, like sha256 or sha3-256.
23:26:08 <pikhq> The weaker guarantee lets them use a much simpler compression function, but the smaller output and smaller state lets them have to work on less memory (which is faster)
23:26:29 <wob_jonas> And the HMAC construction based on those two of course.
23:26:46 <pikhq> That's probably wise. When choosing any algorithms, you really, really should know what you do and do not get from the algorithm.
23:26:59 <pikhq> Especially with ones that are somewhat new with less established wisdom on how to use them.
23:27:14 <wob_jonas> This difference between the guarantees, it's similar to what ais was explaining about crypto random sources, right?
23:27:47 <wob_jonas> pikhq: yes, I know what I want to do, although there are several different things I want to do with different requirements.
23:28:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: wait, I thought I explained that several years ago and in #nethack4
23:29:04 <ais523> "was explaining" seems like an understatement
23:29:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: possible, but you also explained that a few weeks ago here when I asked about them
23:29:16 <pikhq> Some of the biggest screwups in crypto I've seen are from people not knowing WTF crypto algorithms do and do not buy them.
23:29:45 <pikhq> And, unsurprisingly, when you assume a function guarantees something it doesn't, you have a bad time.
23:29:54 <ais523> wob_jonas: hmm, clearly my memory's getting less good
23:30:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think back with nh4, I was only listening to the part where you replaced a clearly non-crypto rng with something that does some sort of crypto, but didn't look at the details
23:30:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's possible that you explained more about it, but I forgot or wasn't listening
23:30:20 <ais523> NH4's RNG isn't cryptosecure in the normal sense (unlike AdeonRNG, which is)
23:30:28 <ais523> it's missing one of the requirements, the other ones are the ones I cared about
23:30:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's what you explained here a few weeks ago
23:30:55 <ais523> maybe I just explain it in a couple of sentences each time the topic comes up
23:31:04 <ais523> rather than as a fully detailed discussion
23:31:22 <wob_jonas> Namely that for nh4, you don't need the requirement that if someone finds out about the current state of the rng, they can't guess anything about the previous values.
23:32:09 <wob_jonas> I know it was something about finding out the hidden key.
23:33:23 <ais523> right, in NH4 knowledge of the internal state lets you predict previous outputs
23:33:35 <ais523> with any RNG, it allows you to predict future outputs, which is typically more useful
23:33:48 <wob_jonas> This came up in #esoteric when I asked about why there seem to be different sort of crypto random generators, and why some of them need a repeated source of outside entropy (I'm still not sure which ones do),
23:34:31 <wob_jonas> and I also told about a specific requirement I wanted to solve and could solve with a crypto-RNG but wondered if there was a cheaper solution.
23:38:43 <wob_jonas> And it seems an RNG with nethack's crypto requirements solves that, but nothing cheaper than that that we know of.
23:41:24 <wob_jonas> Btw, the new version of libtomcrypt has an SHA-2 implementation, which shows that the maintainer who took over actually does work on it more than just bugfixes.
23:41:48 <wob_jonas> That is always encouraging when you consider which library you want to use.
23:41:59 <wob_jonas> Even if libtom might not be the best performance-wise.
23:42:44 <wob_jonas> With its decent documentation it might be a good choice when I don't need very high performance.
23:43:22 <wob_jonas> There's also this https://tls.mbed.org/ library recommended to me, which exports both crypto primitives, and an interface for ssl/tls.
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23:55:26 <\oren\_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFGWe3KHXA google translate is my favorite vocaloid
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00:25:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lartu * New user account
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00:27:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53594&oldid=53590 * Lartu * (+266) Hi! I'm Lartu
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00:42:09 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53595 * Lartu * (+580) Created page with "A '''Disan Count''' is a program designed to test whether a programming language can execute loops, conditionals, I/O and basic arithmetic operations successfully. === Algori..."
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00:50:37 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53596&oldid=53595 * Lartu * (+312)
00:51:29 <fizzie> Uh, I don't think that's right.
00:51:34 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53597&oldid=53596 * Lartu * (+6)
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00:52:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Disan Count]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53598 * Ais523 * (+660) some problems with this idea
00:54:59 <ais523> fizzie: I wonder if Lartu will read my comments on the talk page
00:57:53 <fizzie> I wonder about that too. It's not entirely obvious that there are comments to an article.
00:58:47 <fizzie> Especially since the "Discussion" page link stays red if you're not logged in. (Though presumably they're logged in for now.)
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01:09:23 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53599&oldid=53597 * Lartu * (+509)
01:11:59 <fizzie> I think the answer's trending towards "no". Hmm.
01:12:32 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53600&oldid=53599 * Lartu * (-1)
01:12:48 <ais523> I'm tempted to add an example of a disan count in a non-TC language
01:12:54 <ais523> but most of them don't have proper I/O
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01:21:29 <fizzie> I wonder if this is part of some sort of weird disinformation campaign. Google finds no (relevant) hits for "disan count", and mostly just a footballer with the name. (Okay, there's one Twitter account that might be relevant.)
01:22:13 <ais523> I thought it was something made up by Lartu
01:22:21 <ais523> rather than something that's standard
01:23:22 <fizzie> Guess so. But saying "proposed by late 2016" makes it sound like A Thing.
01:23:39 <ais523> I was actually surprised that it didn't say 2017
01:24:20 <fizzie> Ah, that could be a typo, of course.
01:24:51 <ais523> which reminds me, are we going to make an esolang that acts differently in 2018?
01:24:57 <ais523> or are there no good ideas for that left?
01:28:16 <boily> fungot: any ideas?
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01:28:49 <fizzie> Are there others than 2014 and 2017 so far?
01:30:20 <fizzie> In the wiki, at least.
01:30:23 <ais523> IIRC there's a language which works in all years but one, maybe 2015?
01:30:32 <HackEgo> bin/2014 \ bin/2015 \ bin/2016 \ bin/2017
01:30:53 <ais523> hmm, 2017 was released early IMO
01:30:56 <shachaf> I think the ones in HackEgo don't work in any years because they're buggy.
01:31:00 <ais523> also is not an interesting enough variant
01:31:04 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
01:33:21 <fizzie> HackEgo's 2015 is the one that works like you said (all other years), but https://esolangs.org/wiki/2015 doesn't match that description.
01:33:45 <boily> is there a pantheon of the Most Bestest Esolangs Ever Like They Rock The Fungot?
01:34:00 <fizzie> `` for y in 201{4,5,6,7}; do echo -n "$y: "; $y; done
01:34:01 <HackEgo> 2014: 2015: Hello, world! \ 2016: 2017: Hello, world!
01:34:29 <fizzie> That seems all right. Though I vaguely remember there was some issue there.
01:35:07 <fizzie> boily: The list of featured languages?-) At least eventually, like in a century or so.
01:36:00 <boily> fizziello. indeed tdh
01:36:11 * boily also balances fizzie's parentheses (
01:40:45 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53601&oldid=53600 * Lartu * (+0) /* Algorithm */
01:44:01 <ais523> haha, I didn't even realise the program was bugged
01:44:34 <shachaf> I thought you were the one who pointed it out?
01:44:58 <ais523> no, I pointed out that the /concept/ is bugge
01:45:30 <fizzie> It's also missing a newline, so the output is "0 is even!2 is even!4 is even!..."
01:46:10 <fizzie> If C++ iostreams follow C rules, it might not output anything, since stdout is a text stream and there's no terminating newline.
01:46:33 <fizzie> But I agree that the conceptual problems are the more relevant ones.
01:52:57 <shachaf> Oh, never mind, you were talking about the wiki edit.
02:09:20 <\oren\_> fizzie: it's a Disanformation campaign
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02:13:12 <quintopia> iwant a language where every ) has to be balanced by a later ( rather than vice versan
02:13:39 <doesthiswork> you can do a brainfuck derivitive that swaps them
02:14:14 <shachaf> In the Hebrew keyboard layout, shift-9 produces ) and shift-0 produces (.
02:19:36 <Hooloovo0> write all your programs in hebrew hth
02:20:16 <doesthiswork> I didn't recognize you with that shiny new name
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02:24:11 <shachaf> \oren\_: How would you do it?
02:24:30 <\oren\_> is 0 also to the left of 1 instead of to the right of 0
02:25:36 <\oren\_> or arfe the numbers entirely reversed in order
02:26:18 <shachaf> It looks like http://www.fentek-ind.com/lHebrewBlackUSB.jpg
02:28:19 <\oren\_> shachaf: uh, but those numbers are shift 9 is (, not )
02:32:11 <\oren\_> did u know that pizza pizza has better nuggs and fries than mcdonalds
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02:36:17 <\oren\_> really tho I want those numbers to be locked shifted, since I always use the numpad when I'm typing a number
02:36:34 <\oren\_> that row's unshifted state should be !@#$%^&*()
02:37:48 <\oren\_> and numpad-less keyboards will be fed to nidhoggr
02:39:13 <\oren\_> macbooks don't have numpad so you have to use that top row
02:40:08 <garit> Is there any way to construct associative function f() from a non associative one g()? Example f(1,f(2,x))=f(2,f(1,x)=g(g(g(x)))
02:41:20 <garit> Thismis example is very slow, O(n), any smallest improvement would be a good thing
02:42:11 <\oren\_> garit: have you tried memoizing it
02:42:53 <garit> i don't know what do you mean by this
02:43:20 <\oren\_> well what language are you writing in?
02:43:37 <garit> Ah, cache,reading wiki
02:44:15 <garit> this will allow to make future calc faster, but the construction of this cache will still be O(n)
02:45:16 <garit> And if input\seed changes, (g), i need to rebuild it
02:49:39 <fizzie> There's enough numpadless keyboards for there to be a term ("tenkeyless", "TKL") specifically for them.
02:50:21 <fizzie> I looked at a few when last switching keyboards, but couldn't find a suitable one.
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02:51:55 <fizzie> (Well, http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/ were customizable enough, but that would've meant importing from US.)
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02:55:13 <\oren\_> I don't see why I should have to press hift in order to type a $
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03:26:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53602&oldid=53598 * Lartu * (+539)
03:28:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53603&oldid=53602 * Lartu * (+4)
03:34:08 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53604&oldid=53601 * Lartu * (+256)
03:35:50 <HackEgo> 1/2:k//K K K Ken \ boredom//A boredom is like a kingdom, except ruled by a bore. They don't tend to last very long before people revolt. \ synergy//Synergy is when the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. A possible future Uncontrolled Synergy Scenario is a looming existential threat to humanity. \ peer//Peer Gynt is a famous Norweg
03:35:53 <HackEgo> 2/2:ian troll. His reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections and torrenting his own files. \ brexit//brexit is a command to forcefully exit, releasing 1GB of free space.
03:36:03 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53605&oldid=53604 * Lartu * (-3)
03:38:50 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53606&oldid=53605 * Lartu * (+18)
03:46:53 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53607&oldid=53606 * Lartu * (+8) /* Algorithm */
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07:36:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53608&oldid=53593 * Minin * (+0) move kappa
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11:38:14 <HackEgo> 1/2:atrocity//Atrocity is the capital of the Atrocious Empire. \ ascii//Ascii is the plural of ascius, "of or pertaining to southern countries, near the equator". \ tg//TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or
11:38:17 <HackEgo> 2/2: not. \ ip//Your IP address is the address of the pointer to the current instruction. \ radiohead//Radiohead is "rock music".
11:48:48 <fnodeuser> what are the messages that you're sending in here?
11:49:32 <shachaf> I asked HackEgo for 5 wisdom entries.
11:49:46 <shachaf> And those didn't fit on one line, so I asked for the next line.
11:49:59 <shachaf> (Actually I don't think n stands for next, but close enough.)
11:50:15 <fizzie> shachaf: It stands for "nore".
11:50:26 <shachaf> n stands for the number n, becuase it gives you the nth line of output
11:50:42 <shachaf> But with no arguments it just gives you the next line
11:50:46 <shachaf> It was originally called spam
11:51:12 <HackEgo> line="${1-$(cat /hackenv/tmp/spline)}"; len="$(awk 'END{print NR}' /hackenv/tmp/spout)"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; sed -n "${line}{p;q}" /hackenv/tmp/spout; echo "$((line<len?line+1:1))" > /hackenv/tmp/spline
11:52:30 <boily> fnodeuser: could you please mention fungot?
11:54:00 <boily> yes, and his name is?
11:54:15 <fizzie> boily: Isn't it "the bot who shall not be named"?
11:54:39 <boily> I'll find another unsuspecting victim!
11:54:43 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
11:54:56 <shachaf> Another thing not to say is `list
11:55:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: turing: not found
11:55:27 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think about this whole kerfuffle?
11:55:27 <fungot> fizzie: i still look forward to you plt port. might be an invalid expression ().
11:56:02 <boily> fungot: good morning!
11:56:02 <fungot> boily: there's nothing threatening about **********s.... you're kidding.it is?
11:56:30 <boily> fungot: yes, little snowflakes are threatening. very cold.
11:56:31 <fungot> boily: that's even easier then elements-until :p would be easier to save each character to a specific format) any ideas on how to learn scheme
11:56:35 <lambdabot> CYUL 141100Z 25013KT 15SM FEW020 SCT180 BKN210 M18/M23 A2961 RMK CU1AC3CI3 CU TR SLP032
11:56:47 <shachaf> you're overdoing it, boily
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12:08:18 <HackEgo> onëliner//onëliners are pairs of unfathomable vectors in the category of exponential distance.
12:08:24 <b_jonas> who made this put formatting in the output?
12:12:37 <fizzie> If you mean the boldness, I seem to recall it was the 'chaf. It *was* a little difficult to distinguish boundaries in the `5 w output.
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12:26:59 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53609&oldid=53607 * Lartu * (+1)
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12:35:26 <esowiki> [[Popular problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53610&oldid=53247 * Lartu * (+112)
12:36:56 <fnodeuser> fizzie: 'officially. fizzie, un.', what does un stand for? unofficial?
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13:45:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: *was* difficult to distinguish boundaries, until you fixed all my entries to end with a newline. now there's only "wisdom/rules of wisdom" and almost no other than doesn't have a newline terminator
13:47:08 <b_jonas> `perl -e $/=(); for $n (glob"wisdom/*") { open $f,"<",$n; if (<$f> !~ /\n\z/) { print "$n\n" } }
13:47:15 <HackEgo> wisdom/¯\(°_o) \ wisdom/¯\(°_o) \ wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_ \ wisdom/le \ wisdom/nak \ wisdom/output \ wisdom/rules of wisdom
13:47:31 <b_jonas> oh right, some of those are directories
13:47:41 <b_jonas> `perl -e $/=(); for $n (glob"wisdom/*") { if (open $f,"<",$n and <$f> !~ /\n\z/) { print "$n\n" } }
13:47:42 <HackEgo> wisdom/¯\(°_o) \ wisdom/¯\(°_o) \ wisdom/¯\_(ツ)_ \ wisdom/le \ wisdom/nak \ wisdom/output \ wisdom/rules of wisdom
13:52:40 <fizzie> b_jonas: Even with the " \ " in-between, I think it's still a little difficulter than with the formatting.
13:54:37 <b_jonas> `perl -e $/=(); for $n (glob"wisdom/*") { if (!-d $f and open $f,"<",$n and <$f> !~ /\n\z/) { print "$n\n" } }
13:55:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: can we fork the command then, so eg. bin/wisdom formats them but bin/wisdom doesn't? or something?
13:56:05 <b_jonas> `perl -e $/=(); for $n (glob"wisdom/*") { if (!-d $f and open($f,"<",$n) and <$f> !~ /\n\z/) { print "$n\n" } }
13:56:22 <b_jonas> `perl -e $/=(); for $n (glob"wisdom/*") { if (!-d $n and open($f,"<",$n) and <$f> !~ /\n\z/) { print "$n\n" } }
13:56:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/nak \ wisdom/output \ wisdom/rules of wisdom
13:56:44 <b_jonas> ``` ls -ld wisdom/nak wisdom/output
13:56:45 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/nak \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/output
13:57:08 <b_jonas> are those created by mistake?
13:57:23 <HackEgo> 5378:2015-05-31 <oerjän> ` cat /dev/null >wisdom/nak
13:57:28 <HackEgo> 5880:2015-08-02 <oerjän> revert \ 5879:2015-08-02 <oerjän> rm wisdom/output \ 3516:2013-08-28 <olsnër> touch wisdom/output
13:58:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: what are those for?
14:02:51 <fizzie> I think `? output - no output is a joke of sorts.
14:03:05 <fizzie> Not sure about "nak" though.
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14:04:47 <fizzie> Oh, that reminds me, I need to implement the "link to individual row" feature.
14:05:14 <fizzie> But http://esolangs.org/logs/2015-05-31.html 14:10:08 except it doesn't really make it any clearer.
14:05:41 <fizzie> It's about the ACK/NAK pair, but...
14:05:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: you mean, adding an id attribute to each irc line, plus a class for each nick so that people can ignore or highlight users by stylish
14:08:01 <fizzie> b_jonas: I didn't mean the latter, but I guess that would be possible. The former I did mean. Plus at least codu.org makes it so clicking on a nick adds the required #id in the current location.
14:08:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, I should eventually implement a feature where every .sclink-ar2 entry in my link collection has a stable id I can link to in my link collection pages http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/blu etc
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14:10:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: "makes it so clicking on a nick adds the required #id in the current location" => ah, the magic of relative hyperlinks. so <a id="p5I1SjDpPSY9XefcckmDCyW6mr3RTMAP0JbnvlVBFYhx" href="#p5I1SjDpPSY9XefcckmDCyW6mr3RTMAP0JbnvlVBFYhx">someNick</a>
14:10:32 <b_jonas> where p5I1SjDpPSY9XefcckmDCyW6mr3RTMAP0JbnvlVBFYhx is some stable unique ID that you generate from your archives somehow, I don't know how you're storing the logs so I don't know what the most convenient way is
14:10:49 <fizzie> The logs are fortunately strictly append-at-the-end-only, so a simple stable ID would just be (file, index) pair.
14:11:02 <b_jonas> could be cylinder-sector-head-byteoffset on your disk :-)
14:11:10 <fizzie> Or, rather, just the index, since the file is already part of the URL.
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14:11:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: would that work if you offer monthly or biweekly catenated pages too?
14:12:47 <fizzie> Think so. I mean, the index would just be from start of the catenated page, then. I don't think there are any circumstances I'd need to look up in which subfile it falls to, which would be a little awkward in that case.
14:12:55 <b_jonas> fizzie: note though that id values must begin with an ascii letter
14:13:09 <fizzie> Or just a prefix letter.
14:13:17 <b_jonas> it can be a letter followed by a number in decimal or hex
14:13:26 <b_jonas> https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-name
14:13:32 <fizzie> <a href="#foo"> is how I was thinking of trying to implement that clickability, but that's not what codu.org logs do.
14:13:51 <b_jonas> even base64 is possible because there are 66 available bytes
14:17:04 <fizzie> The codu logs use javascript to highlight the line matching the current hash (and also the clicking). I think that's doable with the :target pseudo-class nowadays.
14:21:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: thank you for working on the logs
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14:25:46 <fizzie> Full disclosure: mostly doing it because it's fun.
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20:29:35 * oerjan sighs at 15-year olds not knowing lexicographical ordering
20:30:02 <oerjan> (aka the Language list)
20:32:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international club for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
20:33:18 * oerjan snickers metaphorically
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21:29:47 <oerjan> fizzie: your logs don't seem to support /me
21:53:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/output: very short file (no magic)
22:05:08 <HackEgo> Usage: file [-bcEhikLlNnprsvz0] [--apple] [--mime-encoding] [--mime-type] \ [-e testname] [-F separator] [-f namefile] [-m magicfiles] file ... \ file -C [-m magicfiles] \ file [--help]
22:05:10 <int-e> `` echo a | file -
22:05:18 <int-e> `` echo ä | file -
22:05:19 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: UTF-8 Unicode text
22:05:29 <int-e> `` echo -n ä | file -
22:05:30 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: UTF-8 Unicode text, with no line terminators
22:05:41 <fungot> int-e: the simulator then slowly removes the mark, i might start on some other room and escape the noise?
22:05:55 <int-e> this is an excellent idea
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22:13:02 <fizzie> oerjan: I thought I did it, but I guess not.
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23:06:55 <lambdabot> CYUL 142200Z 25015G23KT 15SM FEW030 M15/M21 A2984 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP110
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23:27:21 <fizzie> oerjan: Added actions.
23:27:40 <fizzie> (And also combined full-month logs.)
23:32:22 <lambdabot> ENVA 142250Z 10008KT 9999 BKN023 M12/M14 Q0990 RMK WIND 670FT VRB02KT
23:32:37 <lambdabot> EGLL 142320Z AUTO 28009KT 9999 NCD 02/01 Q0990 NOSIG
23:33:12 <boily> hellørjan, fizziello.
23:33:17 <fizzie> They're predicting highs of +11 next wednesday.
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23:42:06 <boily> fizzie: that's disturbing.
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23:58:12 <fizzie> boily: Actually, +13, according to tabloid headlines.
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01:13:26 <quintopia> i see its cold enough to cause some painful shrinkage tbe
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04:01:45 <shachaf> https://orbifold.xyz/interesting-encodings.html
04:02:03 <shachaf> @ask zzo38 Do you like KOI-8?
04:19:11 <variable> although I think I knew one of the authors
04:28:04 <variable> shachaf: ache, one of the authors of KOI-8
04:28:35 <variable> I don't like it, cause I don't like code pages in the first place
04:39:04 <pikhq> Legacy charsets make me sad.
04:39:58 <variable> ascii makes me sad cause it only uses 7 bits
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09:22:35 <izabera> how many bits would you want to use to represent 128 characters?
09:30:19 <garit> izabera: usually 8 bit per character, 1024 bits
09:32:43 <izabera> add some math to your daily diet
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11:43:48 <HackEgo> 1/2:mpanion cube//Aperture Science has created a talking cube - we call it the mpanion cube, because it's the opposite of the mute companion cube. \ cut elimination//The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator. \ lifthrasiir//lifthrasiir is shunned by
11:43:50 <HackEgo> 2/2: the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends. \ friendship//friendship wisdom \ latin//LATINA EST SVBLIMISSIMA LINGVA MVNDI
11:45:04 <HackEgo> 6946:2016-02-24 <shachäf> le/rn cut elimination/The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
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12:35:31 <Soni> is this esoteric enough for #esoteric ? https://bitbucket.org/SoniEx2/jsonwhite
12:38:21 <Soni> may I use it in production?
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17:27:23 <esowiki> [[Vein]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53611 * Keymaker * (+3201) A new language, sort of branching off from Countercall.
17:45:29 <esowiki> [[Countercall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53612&oldid=53237 * Keymaker * (+27) Added see also.
17:48:42 <esowiki> [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53613&oldid=51310 * Keymaker * (+63) Added Vein.
17:50:10 <esowiki> [[Vein]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53614&oldid=53611 * Keymaker * (+26) Category stack-based.
17:56:07 <esowiki> [[Vein]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53615&oldid=53614 * Keymaker * (+546) Added some example code.
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18:06:33 <esowiki> [[Vein]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53616&oldid=53615 * Keymaker * (+72) Clarifying a bit, seems I was slightly confused.
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18:21:39 <oerjan> fizzie: )s are showing up as 41 in the .txt version
18:24:26 <oerjan> fizzie: i see a nick change where the result nick is missing
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19:05:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Fixed the "41"s. An amusing mishap involving C++ overload resolution and 'char' being an integral type.
19:08:38 <fizzie> oerjan: And the nick changes (which I added later and didn't remember to fix in the text format).
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19:58:06 <esowiki> [[User:JayCampbell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53617&oldid=43554 * JayCampbell * (+229) Changed license, added compilers under construction
20:00:50 <esowiki> [[What the fuck is the Internet?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53618 * JayCampbell * (+333) Created page with "Tape and stack machine based on Jason Mewes' obscene rap at the beginning of [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5bW8H-kNZs Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back]. ==Status== * Languag..."
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20:03:22 <esowiki> [[Cry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53619 * JayCampbell * (+213) Golfing language that takes advantage of LLVM optimization for faster execution
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20:34:12 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose KOI-8 is suitable for Russian writing
20:34:30 <quintopia> sometimes cutting is the fastest and clearest way to search out the things you need
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20:39:19 <zzo38> EBCDIC can be suitable if you are communicating with punched cards; otherwise ASCII is much better than EBCDIC.
20:41:37 <oerjan> quintopia: the same applies for the real term cut elimination, which this is a pun on.
20:42:16 <HackEgo> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
20:46:09 <pikhq> As I understand it, the main benefit of EBCDIC in the punch card space is that EBCDIC is compatible with even older conventions for doing data on punch cards.
20:46:46 <pikhq> But if you don't need that, ASCII is entirely suitable there as well.
20:46:56 <pikhq> (as evidenced by the ASCII punch card systems that existed)
20:54:05 <zzo38> But then the holes might be different?
21:05:49 <zzo38> (However, MIX only requires that the cards have eighty columns; it does not matter what encoding is used, although the common IBM cards are probably best)
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21:09:01 <quintopia> i mean unless you consider the existence of two theorems that share a name a pun
21:14:41 <quintopia> shachaf: the cut elimination theorem
21:38:45 <oerjan> quintopia: one of the theorems may not actually be seriously called that, and i'm not entirely sure it's true either although it might be hth
21:42:37 <quintopia> tdh. i wouldnt be surprised if it is true tho
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22:28:16 <zseri> b_jonas: I improved https://gist.github.com/zserik/911ad922cec6c9b95269102523efdbf8, and updated zsdatab::table so that to perform a context::filter, the context don't copies the whole data before that
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23:53:05 <oerjan> . o O ( does boily use Steam a lot )
23:54:56 <boily> hellørjan. I sometimes do!
23:55:01 <boily> mainly to quinthellopia.
23:56:23 <fizzie> boily: What's your Steam level? Or is that a secret?
00:00:30 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
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00:10:38 <lambdabot> CYUL 160000Z 01008KT 15SM BKN035 OVC050 M11/M14 A2983 RMK SC7SC1 SLP105
00:10:47 <boily> it's relatively warm!
00:10:58 <boily> there's sushi in my mouth, so it's a nice Friday.
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00:34:04 <quintopia> ah you must have sent all the cold wind our way. it's getting harder to predict how much coat i'll need on a given day.
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00:43:58 <boily> still being schizophrened by the weather?
00:44:16 <boily> the fam goes well, more snow at my parents' place.
00:44:29 <boily> how's the relativity on your end?
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01:11:12 <quintopia> boily: do you desire writing code recreationally at all these days?
01:12:01 <boily> although I'm spending time and energy to bring Glorious ATDD into the heart of my unsuspecting coworkers.
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01:32:27 <boily> I'm also exploring Spring. very Java. much unesoteric.
01:34:35 <boily> it's... quite interesting the way it's organised. everything is magicked away and it works?
01:34:57 <boily> not sure I can trust all the myriads of plenties of endless annotations.
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01:58:19 <quintopia> do you do much recreationally beyond eating and tile-shuffling?
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02:16:03 <boily> it's fascinating! don't you get all fuzzy at the sight of JPA?
02:16:23 <boily> enterprise software architecture!
02:16:48 <boily> I also shuffle Magic decks and cook.
02:24:28 <zzo38> I was inventing Pokemon mahjong game, one thing is that in case of a exhausive draw if you have tenpai you may be able to earn a stone (including level stone and trade stone). Due to different stone may be more usable than the other stone, I can use what my brother has suggested, to arrange them in tiers, for example you can trade two tier 0 stones for a tier 1 stone.
02:25:04 <zzo38> Or, alternatively, when you get a new stone, if you already have one you may upgrade that one instead if you meet the prerequisites for the new one.
02:38:07 <quintopia> boily: planning on seeing stair wares?
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02:57:43 * boily is confused. it's supper effective!
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02:59:44 <wright> are there any esolangs that experiment with the idea of uh
03:00:01 <wright> "getting" whatever variables from a function instead of the function returning those vars
03:00:12 <wright> it's a totally useless concept but it could be fun to mess around with
03:00:41 <zzo38> I don't know, although it is possible that some might work that way even if it isn't based on that idea. If there isn't, you could make one up, I suppose.
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03:57:14 <quintopia> wright: never heard of such a thing. not even sure what it means to be honest?
04:02:36 <wright> ah, forgot to check back here!
04:03:32 <wright> quintopia: it's a simple and kind-of-weird idea, i'll just put down a few lines on hastebin to explain it
04:03:33 <shachaf> wright: Well, there's always Prolog.
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04:19:06 <wright> Alright, got it: https://hastebin.com/zamuvoqewe.py
04:19:15 <wright> very underdeveloped idea and totally impractical but yknow
04:19:27 <wright> quintopia: see above :]
04:19:52 <wright> shachaf: ..I looked at prolog in like 8th grade and it was too screwy for me to 'get' at the time
04:20:36 <wright> but I should probably look at it again
04:20:49 <wright> does its whole system of doing things facilitate something like what I'm thinking of?
04:21:34 <shachaf> You can write, for example, append([1,2],[3,4],X) to make X be [1,2,3,4]
04:21:51 <shachaf> But you can also write append([1,2],X,[1,2,3,4]) to make X be [3,4]
04:22:18 <shachaf> Or append(X,[3,4],[1,2,3,4]), of course.
04:22:44 <wright> oh well that's intriguing
04:23:47 <shachaf> Or append(X,X,[1,2,1,2]) or whatever
04:24:35 <fizzie> Prolog is the language that says "no" a lot.
04:25:06 <shachaf> Seems like in your Python example you can just put "return locals()" at the end of every function.
04:25:28 <shachaf> And then use func(5)['local_var'] and so on.
04:27:18 <fizzie> MATLAB had some weird things going on with variable scope, though not like that.
04:27:27 <shachaf> fizzie: someone who is good at relations please help me satisfy this. my family is dying
04:28:48 <fizzie> I think I was thinking of stuff like assignin('caller', 'foo', 123);
04:29:03 <fizzie> Which assigns a value into a variable of the calling function.
04:29:10 <wright> well hopefully nobody's going to try making practical use of the concept (lol) but I actually hadn't realized, it really is just having every function return all of its locals
04:30:20 <wright> which in turn proves its total impracticality, esp if you've got some large function with a ton of local variables that really don't need to be passed around
04:32:17 <fizzie> https://uk.mathworks.com/help/matlab/ref/assignin.html https://uk.mathworks.com/help/matlab/ref/evalin.html I like how the documentation doesn't even hint at that not necessarily being a great idea. It's even called "particularly useful".
04:32:32 <fizzie> Anyway, 4:30am is probably not the time for this.
04:34:44 <shachaf> fizzie: Glad to hear that you can't evalin inside another evalin.
04:34:48 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Sat Dec 16 04:34:48 2017
04:34:55 <shachaf> apparentl it is the time for this hth
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04:56:59 <zzo38> JavaScript and other program languages have objects that you can assign into, and even in C you can have a struct that you can assign into. A function defined inside of that one can also read/write its local variables (even after the outer function has returned); GNU C also has something similar (but cannot be used once the outer function is finished).
04:59:36 <zzo38> By looking at those documentation, even MATLAB is having nested functions too, and can share variables too.
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05:54:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:BFX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53620 * Zzo38 * (+127) Created page with "Why do you care if they are signed or unsigned? --~~~~"
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06:49:36 <zzo38> Finally, Farbfeld Utilities now can read one more file format.
07:05:14 <esowiki> [[Lost]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53621&oldid=53320 * Wheatwizard * (+22) Fixed two code blocks
07:28:10 <esowiki> [[Lost]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53622&oldid=53621 * Wheatwizard * (+2489) Added a tutorial
07:32:50 <esowiki> [[Lost]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53623&oldid=53622 * Wheatwizard * (+164) Added to Categories
07:35:54 <esowiki> [[Klein]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53624&oldid=52013 * Wheatwizard * (+164) Added to categories
07:37:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53625&oldid=53608 * Wheatwizard * (+11) Added Lost
07:47:16 <esowiki> [[Lost]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53626&oldid=53623 * Wheatwizard * (+30) Added Nondeterministic
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09:39:37 <esowiki> [[User:Wheatwizard]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53627 * Wheatwizard * (+1160) Created page with "I'm WheatWizard, I'm primarily active on [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/56656/ PPCG]. My favorite esolang is [[Brain-Flak]], and I help maintain its the [https://gi..."
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11:38:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53628&oldid=53625 * Ais523 * (+15) /* B */ +[[BuzzFizz]]
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12:07:20 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53629 * Ais523 * (+6090) new language!
12:07:47 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53630&oldid=53461 * Ais523 * (+14) +[[BuzzFizz]]
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12:15:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53631&oldid=53603 * Ais523 * (+1372) one example is still not going to prove TCness (if it's not an interpreter for a TC language); here's a counterexample, plus an elaboration on the general point
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12:19:28 <ais523> is anyone here aware of any other language with an if-if-else statement?
12:19:41 <ais523> it seems like the sort of thing that must surely have been invented before
12:20:12 <ais523> to be honest I just added it to make writing FizzBuzz easier, because if you're going to optimize for popular problems you may as well make them look good
12:22:03 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53632&oldid=53629 * Ais523 * (-2) /* Computational class */ fix plural
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12:22:53 <int-e> ais523: does Lisp's "cond" count?
12:22:57 <ais523> also people hardly ever make LBAs (although there was one just last month), and this fell into the class naturally
12:23:11 <ais523> int-e: isn't that an if-else if-else?
12:23:24 <ais523> i.e. if both guards are true it only runs the first branch
12:23:31 <Slereah_> what do you mean by if if else
12:23:34 <ais523> an if-if-else runs both the first two branches if both guards are true
12:23:45 <ais523> and the third branch only if both are false
12:24:04 <int-e> then, no, I don't know such a thing
12:24:14 <ais523> you can think of it as the "FizzBuzz control structure"; first guard fizzes, second buzzes
12:24:50 <ais523> I'm not sure how useful it is outside writing fizzbuzz
12:27:45 <ais523> it's very useful in buzzfizz because you can't put two statements inside the same if guard
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12:27:58 <ais523> so you normally use an if-if-if-…-else with the same guard on each if
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12:42:49 <fizzie> @tell ais523 I think I remember seeing a language with an "otherwise" statement that'd execute if none of the previous conditions matched, but would still run all the previous conditions.
12:42:53 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Unfortunately I can't seem to find it; all the "otherwise"s I can find (SQL, XSLT) seem to have the conventional switch / if-elseif-else style.
12:42:56 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Though arguably sed's s///-s///-t is an if-if-else.
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12:53:44 <fizzie> `` seq 15 | sed -e 'g;s/^/x/;h;tx;:x;s/^\(xxx\)*$/Fizz/;G;s/\n\(xxxxx\)*$/Buzz/;Ty;s/[\nx]//g;p;d;:y;s/[^x]//g;s/xx/x/g'
12:53:45 <HackEgo> x \ xx \ Fizz \ xxxx \ Buzz \ Fizz \ xxxxxxx \ xxxxxxxx \ Fizz \ Buzz \ xxxxxxxxxxx \ Fizz \ xxxxxxxxxxxxx \ xxxxxxxxxxxxxx \ FizzBuzz
12:53:59 <fizzie> @tell ais523 `` seq 15 | sed -e 'g;s/^/x/;h;tx;:x;s/^\(xxx\)*$/Fizz/;G;s/\n\(xxxxx\)*$/Buzz/;Ty;s/[\nx]//g;p;d;:y;s/[^x]//g;s/xx/x/g'
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15:21:51 <wob_jonas> fizzie: the next page links in the daily logs are broken (the previous page links do work)
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15:47:06 <zzo38> Well, there is also the method used here: \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
16:00:36 * ATMunn should be more active in this channel
16:02:56 <zzo38> If you have something to write about, then to do so, please.
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17:14:07 <zzo38> We need to have true net neutrality, meaning there can be no discrimination based on: protocol, address, port number, direction (incoming vs outgoing connections), file type, location, etc
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17:18:50 <wob_jonas> I'm going to upgrade the OS on my home computer from debian 8 to debian 9 (stretch). If I disappear, then I broke my system somehow.
17:19:51 <wob_jonas> I've checked my recovery options, I can boot and access the main file system from both (1) a tiny netinstaller image on the hard disk, and (2) an installer CD. So if I render my system temporarily unbootable, I can use those.
17:20:09 <wob_jonas> The easiest way to mess up an upgrade is to get a power outage at the wrong stage, I hear.
17:20:23 <wob_jonas> Any parting words you want to tell me before I start the upgrade? You still have some time.
17:21:55 <zzo38> How long do you expect it to take?
17:22:01 <wob_jonas> Also, I seriously don't understand how /etc/apt/sources.list works. It contains arcane incantations that I can't decode, and no docs explain it properly
17:22:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I've no clue, it's been lots of years since I've done a dist-upgrade, and that was like three debian versions ago
17:23:06 <wob_jonas> I'd guess two hours for the downloads and installs itself, then days to fix everything that broke.
17:23:57 <wob_jonas> Also six minutes to copy the new kernel to the boot partition and reboot
17:24:25 <zzo38> I currently have nothing else I can think of right now
17:24:52 <wob_jonas> Also, I should buy a new computer, but that's sort of a different matter.
17:25:07 <wob_jonas> Except if I render the system unbootable then it will be harder to shop for a new computer.
17:29:00 <wob_jonas> Ok, I'm rebooting to single user mode now and then start the dist-upgrade
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17:34:19 <nc_jonas> apt-get dist-upgrade started. it's downloading packages now.
17:35:35 <zzo38> I can suggest a new MIME header which could be used on NNTP messages (and other MIME messages) to specify what resource (identified by URI) it is a comment to, if applicable. Almost any URI scheme is valid (some, such as "about" and "file", do not normally make sense; "file" may still be usable on local systems though)
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17:41:21 <nc_jonas> download complete. that was quick. now for the slow part, installing all the packages.
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17:50:19 <nc_jonas> It's actually upgrading the base packages now, like libc.
17:50:40 <nc_jonas> sorry for the join spam by the way
17:52:07 <nc_jonas> No wait, not installing systemd
17:52:25 <nc_jonas> Just handling triggers for systemd to upgrade configuration files or something
17:52:39 <nc_jonas> It's installing libreoffice now
17:53:09 <nc_jonas> I think it has a heuristic to install stuff the starts with "lib" first, which is why libreoffice comes so early
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18:00:01 <nc_jonas> It's isntalling some kde and wayland stuff now
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18:02:58 <int-e> . o O ( waylaying X11 )
18:04:25 <nc_jonas> I'm seeing some warnings scrolling by
18:09:35 <zzo38> I don't like Wayland so much I think X is better (although, there are a few problem, I have written about how to fix them)
18:10:03 <nc_jonas> sure, X keeps being installed, it's just installing wayland so you can run wayland programs on X or something
18:10:43 <nc_jonas> really I'm not sure how it works. there are thousands of packages and I don't recognize what most of them does. I've seen it installed octave, and magickwand
18:10:57 <nc_jonas> but there are lots of other packages that I don't know about
18:11:15 <nc_jonas> now it's installing texlive stuff, that's always large
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18:25:04 <nc_jonas> still installing more and packages
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18:27:21 <nc_jonas> It just installed a new version of gzip :-)
18:27:47 <nc_jonas> or probably just a new binary build of the same version
18:29:28 <nc_jonas> ``` dateu # are you here, hackego?
18:29:29 <HackEgo> 2017-12-16 18:28:40.740654000+00:00
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18:37:31 <nc_jonas> I'll come back later when it's finished these installs. Then I'll install the kernel and check what it's telling me about remaining unsatisfied dependencies
18:40:56 <nc_jonas> Hmm, it may have finished unpacking the packages, and is at the "Setting up" stage now
18:41:07 <nc_jonas> Then I might have to look for prompts
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18:52:58 <nc_jonas> Ok, it's giving the interactive questions now
18:55:27 <nc_jonas> Nope, only one interactive question, then continuing to set up packages
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19:24:41 <nc_jonas> the dist-upgrade command ended, now I'm installing the kernel then checking what errors it enocountered
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19:31:43 <nc_jonas> the main install is done, but I haven't rebooted yet. I'm doing cleanup stuff now.
19:32:08 <nc_jonas> removing the obsolete packages, then let's see what the errors are it encounters with partly installed packages
19:32:28 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53633&oldid=53632 * Oerjan * (+36) /* Computational class */ Corrections (the original is wrong because \ can be used with constant second argument)
19:34:40 <nc_jonas> some error about acpid, but I think that will clear after I redo it with the new kernel
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19:41:35 <nc_jonas> I rebooted to the new kernel, now I'm fixing everything the upgrade broke
19:41:48 <nc_jonas> or at least starting to, I'll encounter more later probably
19:43:17 <nc_jonas> yep, the acpid thing installed now
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19:46:57 <int-e> running in pyjamas
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19:54:18 <int-e> `le/rn rip//R.I.P. is short for "running in pyjamas".
19:54:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'rip': R.I.P. is short for "running in pyjamas".
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19:55:32 <HackEgo> zygohistomorphic prepromorphism:A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor.
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20:00:56 <nc_jonas> There's some problem with switching between X and console, it can end up in a wedged state when there's no screen or terminal or anything so I have to reboot
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20:14:16 <int-e> `` ln -s rip wisdom/r.i.p.
20:14:46 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas Thanks for the report. Looks like I dropped the .html prefix when rejiggling some code.
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20:15:25 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas s/prefix/suffix/
20:18:13 <HackEgo> R.I.P. is short for "running in pyjamas".
20:19:17 <oerjan> int-e: symlink wisdoms might be a bit brittle if people edit...
20:19:41 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
20:20:10 <oerjan> (also there's an issue with `revert)
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20:29:01 <HackEgo> `revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/>. It is a builtin command so cannot be called from other commands.
20:29:41 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
20:30:35 <oerjan> `slwd `revert//s,http.*bot,https://hackego.esolangs.org,
20:30:37 <HackEgo> `revert//`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/>. It is a builtin command so cannot be called from other commands.
20:30:54 <oerjan> wait, does that still work
20:31:35 <fizzie> Yes, the hackego. domain is still pointing at the CaC host.
20:31:50 <fizzie> We haven't discussed if HackEgo should move or not.
20:32:15 <fizzie> Given how, well, hacky it is, maybe that's a reasonable place.
20:32:20 <oerjan> HackEgo: are you feeling more speedy now
20:33:02 <fizzie> But I repurposed the web server as http://experimental.esolangs.org/ so that, if I have some configuration changes or MediaWiki upgrades, I can deploy them there first.
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20:33:26 <constant> 1638: 0.185876697 openat(AT_FDCWD,"/root/.emacs.d/init.elc",O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC,00) ERR#13 'Permission denied'
20:34:25 <ais523> hmm, that looks like strace but the output format is slightly different
20:34:30 <ais523> maybe it's strace on non-Linux
20:35:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Feels very professional and all, to not test in production.
20:40:14 <int-e> oerjan: well I for one am inclined to wait for the symlink to break
20:41:16 <int-e> `` rm canary wisdom/r.i.p.
20:41:34 <int-e> `` chmod -r canary
20:41:40 <HackEgo> R.I.P. is short for "running in pyjamas".
20:42:02 <int-e> that's interesting.
20:42:12 <int-e> I thought that's how you break them
20:42:44 <int-e> `paste wisdom/r.i.p.
20:42:46 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/r.i.p.
20:47:11 <fizzie> Best company name seen in the new Star Wars movie credits: "We Shoot Lasers Limited". (Mentioned for LIDAR services.)
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21:00:25 <int-e> here's a puzzle: what does "0ab 0bc 0cd 0de 0ea aBb bCc cDd dEe eAa aAB bBC cCD dDE eEA 1BA 1CB 1DC 1ED 1AE" encode?
21:04:18 <ais523> it looks like esolang code, but it's too symmetrical
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21:07:32 <int-e> Oh I think I have messed this up, which would make the puzzle impossible. I'm trying to specify the corners of a dodecahedron.
21:10:45 <ais523> no, I think that's correct? assuming it is genuinely symmetrical
21:10:46 <int-e> No, I got lucky, that appears to be correct.
21:11:18 <int-e> But I was working from a wrong picture, so I had reason to be skeptical :)
21:16:44 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/r.i.p.
21:16:46 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 3 Dec 16 20:40 wisdom/r.i.p. -> rip
21:17:33 <oerjan> int-e: maybe it's been fixed in hg, istr fizzie upgraded at one point.
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21:22:18 <oerjan> or maybe that other bugfix for `revert also fixed that
21:22:56 <fizzie> I don't think I fixed anything specifically for symlinks, but I did fix one or two other revert-related things. Who knows. It's a mystery.
21:23:00 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/r.i.p.’: No such file or directory \ Forget what?
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21:23:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wat: not found
21:23:39 <HackEgo> R.I.P. is short for "running in pyjamas".
21:23:43 <HackEgo> abort: Permission denied: /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/canary
21:23:56 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
21:24:50 <oerjan> it's gone, and the repository browser hasn't noticed
21:25:26 <HackEgo> --w------- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 16 20:40 canary
21:26:16 <oerjan> the repository browser still sees nothing
21:26:20 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 16 20:40 canary
21:27:42 <HackEgo> R.I.P. is short for "running in pyjamas".
21:27:50 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/r.i.p.
21:27:51 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 3 Dec 16 21:24 wisdom/r.i.p. -> rip
21:28:01 <oerjan> ok it got restored into a symlink
21:28:24 <oerjan> so that particular bug is gone, but other things remain crazy hth
21:28:40 <fizzie> Oh, again with the weird modes.
21:29:03 <fizzie> I'm guessing "abort: Permission denied: /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/canary" is because of that.
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21:29:16 <ais523> that canary can be a lot of fun sometimes
21:30:13 <HackEgo> R.I.P. is short for "running in pyjamas".
21:30:20 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/r.i.p.
21:30:21 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 3 Dec 16 21:29 wisdom/r.i.p. -> rip
21:30:37 <oerjan> ok it seems it behaves sanely when canary isn't broken
21:30:59 <oerjan> (that showed up in the browser)
21:31:17 <fizzie> Any issue that messes the ability of "hg status -rumad" + remove all mentioned files + "hg up -C" to restore the working copy to exactly match the repository contents is likely to leave it in a weird state.
21:32:00 <int-e> oerjan: fwiw, other two reverts also showed up in the repo browser for me, even before you changed the canary permissions
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21:32:30 <oerjan> int-e: yes, but the command that removed r.i.p. initially did not
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21:33:08 <oerjan> nor did my attempts to put it back, before fixing canary
21:33:47 <oerjan> well, presumably because the repository never noticed it was gone
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22:38:30 <izabera> did you know that the B. in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stands for Benoit B. Mandelbrot ?
22:38:59 <zzo38> No, I don't know that
22:39:16 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1d 18h 37m 13s ago: Do you like KOI-8?
22:39:25 <zzo38> I answered that question already
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23:34:15 <quintopia> oerjan: do you agree with ais523 that BuzzFizz is not LBA-complete?
23:35:24 <int-e> linear bounded automaton, apparently
23:46:52 <int-e> hmm, what happens on division by 0?
23:49:52 <quintopia> good question. on previous languages, ais523 has included the disclaimer "anything not expressly described as accepted behavior is an error" or something to that effect. my best guess would be "it crashes the program"
23:56:23 <oerjan> 0 divides nothing else and is divided by everything.
23:56:35 <oerjan> that's the usual math answer.
23:56:58 <quintopia> it would be a nice thing to be stated explicitly in this case
23:57:11 <quintopia> do you understand the intuition for sub-LBA-completeness?
23:59:22 <int-e> I suspect that it's sufficient to supply the program with a binary string as a natural number, plus a constant value 2^(kn) to delimit the space.
00:00:27 <oerjan> my intuition is that it is complete.
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00:02:59 <oerjan> i don't see why 2^(kn) is needed, the size of the binary string should be enough...
00:03:16 <oerjan> well i suppose it could make it easier.
00:08:38 <oerjan> it seems to me you can implement brainfuck with a finite number of LB cells
00:09:25 <oerjan> only +, not -, but that should be possible to deal with
00:10:22 <int-e> you get - modulo a given constant.
00:10:46 <oerjan> yes but you would want it modulo the input bound
00:11:13 <int-e> input is read into constants
00:11:31 <oerjan> in that case you don't get it
00:12:11 <oerjan> hm probably a simple loop
00:12:13 <int-e> start with (n,n+1), increment both until the latter becomes divisible by the bound.
00:13:06 <oerjan> hm it should be possible to calculate 2^n from the input
00:13:25 <oerjan> with a loop that doubles until you hit it
00:13:51 <oerjan> hm but it won't be a constant that way
00:14:34 <oerjan> otoh you can test for even-ness, so you can probably test for 2^n division with a loop
00:15:30 <oerjan> (the control flow of the language is a bit weird though, hopefully nothing seriously limiting)
00:17:12 <oerjan> and the if ... if else thing is good for enforcing several conditions for a command
00:17:32 <int-e> actually negation is the easier primitive (you can clear values modulo C (increment until divisible by C). To negate, start with (n,0) and incrment to (0,-n)).
00:18:15 <int-e> (in order to start with (n,n+1), one would have to copy a counter...)
00:19:02 <oerjan> @tell ais523 int-e and i are getting pretty convinced BuzzFizz _is_ LBA complete.
00:19:38 <function> @tell lambdabot that I want it to be circular
00:20:14 <oerjan> function: that's one of its standard replies
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00:20:31 <oerjan> it looked fast to me, you may be lagged.
00:22:05 <oerjan> int-e: so it has plenty of arithmetic (with negation, multiplication should also be a breeze)
00:22:27 <zzo38> If you write "else if" is the else flag then set afterward?
00:23:25 <int-e> oerjan: and the else: isn't needed for all this. (In fact it makes arbitrary flow control harder, since the natural way of doing that is to add a flag for every basic block)
00:25:12 <oerjan> zzo38: hm that seems a bit weird.
00:26:06 * Roger9 passes control flow to oerjan
00:26:08 <oerjan> int-e: oh right you can nest ifs
00:31:53 <oerjan> zzo38: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/buzzfizz/buzzfizz.y seems to imply so
00:35:13 <oerjan> (it gets compiled into if ($else) { ... } $else = 1; )
00:36:54 <oerjan> oh and the divisions are perl %
00:37:07 <HackEgo> Illegal modulus zero at -e line 1.
00:37:44 <oerjan> `perl -e print !(1%0);
00:37:45 <HackEgo> Illegal modulus zero at -e line 1.
00:43:48 <zzo38> What if you have multiple BuzzFizz programs piped together?
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02:22:13 <boily> Aquenaton: Aquenatellon. bit brushes?
02:22:28 <boily> Rellogellor9, trellout.
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03:24:40 <zzo38> The description for Unnecessary says that any valid program is a null program and is also a quine, but I am not so sure. Null program mean it has zero length; if it doesn't exist then it has not any length whether zero or otherwise. The quine is same problem.
03:26:14 <zzo38> Do you believe me or not?
03:27:50 <quintopia> there is a difference between an empty file and a nonecistent file
03:28:08 <quintopia> only one of them can be listed in a directory
03:28:51 <zzo38> Yes, that is true, but it does not seem to have to do with what I mentioned
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03:35:25 <ais523> in Unnecessary the program must be nonexistent, rather than empty
03:35:33 <ais523> however, it's not clear what it means for a program to generate nonexistent output
03:35:35 <ais523> maybe it should crash?
03:36:27 <ais523> @message oerjan I'm far from certain it isn't LBA-complete; it would be surprising, but in a good way; it's confusing because it takes input in a different way from most LBAs
03:36:27 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
03:36:33 <ais523> @tell oerjan I'm far from certain it isn't LBA-complete; it would be surprising, but in a good way; it's confusing because it takes input in a different way from most LBAs
03:36:40 <ais523> variable: that's empty output, not nonexistent output
03:36:52 <ais523> perhaps it should close stdout? delete stdout?
03:37:03 <ais523> deleting stdout is actually a meaningful operation on UNIX, sometimes, although you may well not have permission for it
03:37:49 <zzo38> Making producing nonexistent output is easily enough without changing the implementation; simply to define Unnecessary as having no I/O.
03:38:41 <zzo38> The fact that the interpreter is connected to stdout is not a feature of the programming language.
03:40:27 <ais523> hmm, I suspect it's possible to multiply numbers in BuzzFizz, at least as long as you only want to print the output
03:40:50 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know. Did you write a program to multiply numbers?
03:41:27 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53634&oldid=53633 * Ais523 * (+18) /* Syntax */ minor fix to an ambiguous description
03:41:45 <ais523> zzo38: not yet but I think I know what it would look like
03:43:18 <variable> ais523: an LBA is strictly greater than a 2DFA
03:43:24 <variable> 2 DFA has been shown to be able to multiple numbers
03:43:56 <variable> https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1740257
03:44:16 <ais523> variable: oh, duh, of course
03:44:22 <ais523> I was thinking there might not be room for the answer but of course there is
03:45:05 <ais523> you'd have to do it a digit at a time in most LBAs because they couldn't read the entire answer at once, but that's not really a problem, there's no rule saying you /can't/ do it a digit at a time
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13:24:39 <HackEgo> 1/2:thé//Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth. \ apt-get//apt-get installs whatever you wanted, plus whatever Mark Shuttleworth wanted. \ atriq//atriq or two \ rhubarb//Rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb, rhubarb: rhubarb rhubarb? Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb rhubarb. \ termite//Termites are genericized ants for intellectu
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14:30:52 <int-e> Yeah, I'm fine. Just feeling stupid for producing an unsolvable megaminx configuration because I forgot about the permutation parity.
14:32:31 <int-e> (I had this, http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/d.svg ... and I noticed the parity problem when I reached the final face on the real thing :P)
14:35:03 <int-e> (the question I'm investigating is whether it's possible to have 11 distinct colors on each of the 12 sides)
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14:45:50 <int-e> in any case this got a little out of hand... I guess I've already spent about 8 hours on this now.
14:46:16 <wob_jonas> Anyway, the upgrade has changed some settings that I left on default and I will have to set up, but the only big problem found so far is that twice I got locked up when switching away from an X11. Might be some driver problem.
14:52:04 <int-e> oh well. next try... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/d2.svg
14:53:35 <boily> int-e: what are those shiny shapes?
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15:35:29 <int-e> boily: it's supposed to be a (reachable) megaminx configuration with all sides consisting of distinct colors, but I still have an odd permutation for the corners...
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15:44:14 <int-e> okay, I identified my mistake...
15:45:17 * boily wonders what in fungot's name is a megaminx...
15:45:17 <fungot> boily: and the lack of clarity
15:45:38 <lambdabot> https://ruwix.com/twisty-puzzles/megaminx-gigaminx-teraminx-petaminx/
15:45:42 <boily> oh! it's a d12 rubik!
15:49:18 * ATMunn tries to understand how to code in jelly
15:51:35 <int-e> So... let's be brutal (O(n^4) size encoding for even permutations of n elements...) and try again.
15:52:03 * ATMunn resorts to poking fungot
15:52:03 <fungot> ATMunn: okay...... not all of them
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15:54:27 <wob_jonas> Ah, it's a megaminx configuration. Makes sense. I was wondering what that colored dodecahedron was.
15:55:11 <wob_jonas> Also, my go-to link would be https://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/megaminx.htm
15:58:16 <int-e> maybe now it's finally correct? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/d3.svg
16:03:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: this would be easier if you just showed it on a physical megaminix that I could turn in my hand. it's hard to understand the config from a screen
16:11:32 * ATMunn wants to make an esoteric language and then write an interpreter for it
16:11:58 <boily> ATMellonn. is it a purply language?
16:11:58 <moony> quintopia, challange: say hello to ATMunn like you do everyone else
16:12:28 <moony> ATMunn, 'purple colored'. Don't ask.
16:12:45 <quintopia> hey everyone else! whats your language going to be about?
16:13:33 <ATMunn> (I may or may not end up posting about it here, don't expect it to be anything to profound or new though :P)
16:15:07 <quintopia> ATMunn: are you saying it will be a brainfuck derivative? that is a very popular way to make not new things
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16:17:05 <moony> We already have so many brainfuck derivatives that there are no niches left to fill.
16:17:14 <boily> you'd be surprised.
16:17:38 <moony> not until we get meta brainfuck
16:17:44 <ATMunn> I was thinking a while ago about making a taxi-like language (but with a different "theme")
16:17:45 <moony> (With a real implementation)
16:18:17 <ATMunn> quintopia: nah I don't care much for bf
16:18:30 <ATMunn> idek how to write a program in it
16:19:12 <LKoen> it's pretty straightforward, it's an imperative language
16:19:22 <quintopia> oh its easy. you just strimg together +-<>[]., add pepper to taste
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16:20:23 <ATMunn> yeah, I'm aware that it's not hard
16:20:34 <ATMunn> I just don't have much of an interest in it
16:21:20 <quintopia> youndont have to have an interest in it. you just use it as a way to scratch some other itch
16:22:48 <ATMunn> well anyways, I'm aware that there are about a million derivatives of it out there, so I certainly won't add to them
16:25:32 <moony> bf_derivatives.bind(Number.add, [1]).call(ATMunn);
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16:47:39 <wob_jonas> Let's start a Btjzxgquartfrqifjoust ring!
16:52:34 <int-e> okay, finally it worked out.
16:53:18 <int-e> wob_jonas: well, *now* I have a physical version of that configuration.
17:22:40 <int-e> wob_jonas: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/d/
17:23:48 <int-e> (blurry photos but the idea is that the first series corresponds to the left half of the diagram (top of the dodecahedron) and the second series to the right side (bottom)
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17:52:51 <wob_jonas> I don't follow how all these puzzles are called
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20:30:41 <lambdabot> ais523 said 16h 54m 7s ago: I'm far from certain it isn't LBA-complete; it would be surprising, but in a good way; it's confusing because it takes input in a different way from most LBAs
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21:08:25 <oerjan> ais523: if you have a Turing tape with useable length l and k cell values, then you can give BuzzFizz the input as the two values k^l and the-data-in-base-k, the combined size is linear in the turing tape input, and you can do an emulation of the bounded tape with two bounded registers (mod k^l).
21:09:50 <oerjan> (k is a true constant so the program can depend on it.)
21:10:47 <ais523> oerjan: it's not immediately obvious how to extract digits in base k, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some way
21:11:07 <oerjan> you can divide by k in a loop
21:11:40 <ais523> oh, because k is a constant, you can repeatedly loop from 1 up to k and subtract each time
21:11:51 <ais523> and the big advantage of having k^l as an input is that subtraction is a meaningful operation then
21:12:15 <ais523> you can subtract general integers
21:12:16 <oerjan> i don't think you strictly _need_ k^l as an input, but it makes things simpler
21:12:28 <ais523> loop up to the lower one, then start counting as you loop up to the higher one
21:12:58 <oerjan> yeah that's pretty much like int-e found out yesterday
21:14:02 <ais523> this language is unintuitive in the reverse way to normal
21:14:19 <ais523> instead of things that seem easy turning out to be hard, things that seem hard/impossible turn out to be doable in a fairly straightforward way
21:14:38 <ais523> the "you have to have a counter on one side of \ and a constant on the other side" feels much more restrictive than it actually is
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21:18:07 <oerjan> meanwhile, i determined one thing about countercall
21:18:38 <ais523> I'm interested, more countercall knowledge sounds like a good thing
21:18:43 <oerjan> call a sequence of commands "clamped" if there's an upper bound to what values it can halt with.
21:18:43 <ais523> that seems to have caught many people's imaginatinos
21:18:52 <ais523> oerjan: what values of the counter, that is?
21:20:21 <oerjan> then clamped sequences are infectious: any command sequence referring to one, including inside a function, is also clamped.
21:22:52 <ais523> ooh, that violates my intuition somewhat, but assuming that's correct the language probably isn't TC
21:23:20 <oerjan> note that this doesn't disallow sequences from not halting.
21:24:40 <oerjan> to prove this, it helps to have another more obvious fact:
21:25:29 <oerjan> for any command sequence there exists constants n and k such that if the initial counter is <=n, then the effect of the sequence is to add k to it.
21:26:27 <oerjan> (proof: n is -number of top-level + in the sequence, k is the +es - the -es.)
21:26:57 <oerjan> (and no function gets to run then.)
21:27:55 <ais523> oerjan: yes, that's fairly clear
21:29:19 <oerjan> this means, in particular, that if A and B are command sequences, A is clamped with bound m and B has the n and k as above, then there are at most m+n output values of A that B does anything other than add k to.
21:30:30 <ais523> oerjan: there seems to be a sign error here somewhere
21:31:49 <oerjan> those m-n values can only give m-n outputs of B, so there's a maximum; everything else becomes less than m+k, so A B is clamped.
21:32:08 <oerjan> (ignoring things that don't halt.)
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21:33:21 <ais523> it's not 100% clear what proportion of the code has to be in terminating functions
21:34:00 <oerjan> well if you go keymaker's route and emulate things while never halting...
21:34:58 <ais523> you have to let the functions terminate sometime, otherwise it's a 1-counter machine
21:35:50 <ais523> actually, hmm, I'm not sure if the clampedness is a problem after all
21:35:53 <ais523> this language is so infuriating
21:36:09 <oerjan> that A B is clamped if B is is trivial, as is f where f : B and B is clamped.
21:37:20 <ais523> oerjan: imagine a recursive function that calls itself, then a clamped function, then increments the counter
21:37:28 <ais523> I don't see any reason why the return value is necessarily clamped
21:38:04 <oerjan> ok there wasn't any syntax to check
21:39:43 <oerjan> ais523: f : ... f ... g + then calling f will end up with g + as the last command run if f runs at all
21:40:12 <oerjan> so it will be clamped to at most one higher than g is
21:41:34 <oerjan> if there is a return value at all, it must pass through g.
21:42:32 <oerjan> and that's at the top level call of f, what happens recursively doesn't matter.
21:46:43 <oerjan> also, if any function _doesn't_ get to run that means things are already clamped at <= 0.
21:47:21 <oerjan> so you cannot avoid this by getting g not to run
21:48:56 <oerjan> but the way countercall works it's pretty much functions mathematically
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22:02:33 <ais523> in that case I strongly suspect that countercall isn't TC
22:02:47 <ais523> as that makes it very hard to restore the counter to the positives without everything going out of control
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23:16:29 <boily> I may have shuffled tiles <_<... >_>'...
23:16:35 <boily> I can stop whenever I want!
23:21:23 <quintopia> okay. but can you want to stop whenever you want?
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23:26:24 <HackEgo> poq: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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23:27:07 * poq blows ion a kiss
23:27:35 -!- poq has left.
23:29:15 <boily> ooooooh! a drive-by ion licking!
23:29:20 <boily> haven't seen that in a while ^^
23:32:25 <ais523> oh wow, is that what relcome looks like?
23:32:35 * ais523 is reminded of why they turned off color in their IRC client originally
23:32:45 <ais523> other channels I'm in use it for more useful things than that :-D
23:33:19 <boily> his523. what kind of useful things it can be used for?
23:34:12 <ais523> colorcoded bot messages, most commonly
23:34:22 <ais523> i.e. the bot outputs a colored header explaining why it posted the message
23:35:34 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:35:54 <ais523> (the yellow in my client was out of place compared to the other colors, I adjusted it tob e more consistent with them)
23:36:00 <ais523> I might need to make the blue a bit brighter too, I guess
23:36:17 <fizzie> ais523: The wiki recent changes are colored, FWIW.
23:36:37 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:36:46 <ais523> aha, that's nicely readable
23:39:06 <ais523> well, apart from being really garish and rainbow-colored, but I guess that's what it's meant to do
23:44:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rElCoMe: not found
23:44:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: RELCOME: not found
23:45:05 <quintopia> this is sadly lacking in formatting possibilitites
23:45:33 <boily> `` find -iname '*elcome*
23:45:33 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
23:45:39 <fizzie> quintopia: Just compose.
23:45:40 <boily> `` find -iname '*elcome*'
23:45:42 <HackEgo> wElCoMe To ThE iNtErNaTiOnAl HuB fOr EsOtErIc PrOgRaMmInG lAnGuAgE dEsIgN aNd DePlOyMeNt! fOr MoRe InFoRmAtIoN, ChEcK oUt OuR wIkI: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (FoR tHe OtHeR kInD oF eSoTeRiCa, tRy #eSoTeRiC oN eFnEt Or DaLnEt.)
23:45:43 <HackEgo> ./bin/Welcome \ ./bin/wElCoMe \ ./bin/velcome \ ./bin/autowelcome \ ./bin/WELCOME \ ./bin/welcome \ ./bin/relcome \ ./bin/WeLcOmE \ ./bin/welcome \ ./bin/ReLcOmE \ ./bin/rwelcome \ ./bin/elcome \ ./share/autowelcome_status \ ./.hg/store/data/autowelcome__status.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/_welcome.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/velcome.i \ ./.hg/store/d
23:46:03 <boily> `` find bin -iname '*elcome*'
23:46:04 <HackEgo> bin/Welcome \ bin/wElCoMe \ bin/velcome \ bin/autowelcome \ bin/WELCOME \ bin/welcome \ bin/relcome \ bin/WeLcOmE \ bin/welcome \ bin/ReLcOmE \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/elcome
23:46:28 <ais523> I'm amused that it's even possible to bold the name of an executable (although I know why it works)
23:46:36 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:47:25 <quintopia> i guess i should have started on R instead of r
23:47:33 <HackEgo> AiS523: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On eFnEt oR DaLnEt.)
23:47:48 <shachaf> If I joined a channel and got that message, I would not feel welcome
23:48:19 <ais523> none of our welcomes, other than `welcome and its translated variants, are actually any good for welcoming new people
23:48:26 <ais523> they're mostly just for annoying regulars
23:48:44 <ais523> HackEgo had so much potential – it was intended as an esolang-running bot that could be expanded to understand new esolangs
23:48:50 <ais523> and yet look what people ended up doing with it :-(
23:49:28 <HackEgo> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
23:49:31 <ais523> at least there was actual ontopic conversation here today!
23:49:40 <shachaf> I think many of the shaventions are useful.
23:51:08 <quintopia> we have had ontopic conversation for several days straight ais523. it's nice in small doses.
23:52:20 <shachaf> At what point do you give up on topic prescriptivism and recognize that the topic is what people talk about?
23:53:02 <ais523> shachaf: if the channel has no connection to its topic then it's effectively equivalent to all other channels with no connection to its topic, up to its userbase
23:53:20 <shachaf> I don't think that's true.
23:53:34 <ais523> you can flip this around: I'm currently in nine different NetHack-related channels and we often move a NetHack-related conversation from one to another because it's getting offtopic for the specific channel
23:53:52 <ais523> and they have different userbases because some people care about some conversations and not others
23:54:17 <ais523> anyway, this channel has always had some proportion of offtopic conversation that I've disliked
23:54:33 <ais523> sometimes it has offtopic conversation I'm fine with (e.g. general programming/computery stuff)
23:54:39 <ais523> but the ontopic conversation is why I'm here
23:54:49 <ais523> and in periods when ontopic conversation has been rare I just haven't joined at all
23:54:59 <ais523> there are plenty of places to discuss general programming/computery stuff, after all
23:55:20 <ais523> incidentally, something came up at work recently that I thought this channel might like, it's rather eso in spirit
23:55:32 <ais523> I was looking into whether it's possible to extend anonymous inner classes in Java
23:55:55 <ais523> in the end it turned out to be unnecessary, so I stopped looking into it, but it's an interesting/bizarre problem
23:56:04 <ais523> because sometimes they're generated as final, sometimes not
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23:56:13 <shachaf> Well, if you have a lot of channel overlap with other people in the channel, it's different, of course.
23:56:25 <shachaf> Non-static inner classes in Java are kind of an odd construct.
23:56:34 <shachaf> I was surprised when I first learned how they work.
23:56:58 <ais523> shachaf: one thing I have discovered is that it's possible to extend a named inner class, even if it's both not-static and private (!)
23:57:03 <ais523> although you have to be in the same package
23:57:27 <ais523> you can't construct an object of the resulting derived class via the normal means, as you can't run a super constructor, but you can do it using deserialisation or the like
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00:52:46 <HackEgo> 1/2:rules of wisdom//unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation gblh//Gblh but less helpful. \ laughed//They laughed when I said I wanted to be a comedian. They're not laughing n
00:52:48 <HackEgo> 2/2:ow! \ nth//nth is not that helpful \ gaspacho//You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
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01:10:23 <ais523> shachaf: for anonymous inner classes, though, they seem to be marked as final or not more or less at random, at least I haven't spotted a pattern
01:10:34 <ais523> it's not purely based on a) whether they capture this, b) whether they captuer other tihngs
01:14:01 <fizzie> Hmm. JLS says: "An anonymous class is never final (§8.1.1.2). The fact that an anonymous class is not final is relevant in casting, in particular the narrowing reference conversion allowed for the cast operator (§5.5). It is also of interest in subclassing, in that it is impossible to declare a subclass of an anonymous class, despite an anonymous class being non-final, because an anonymous class cannot
01:14:07 <fizzie> be named by an extends clause (§8.1.4)."
01:14:49 <ais523> fizzie: well, I've certainly come across anonymous classes which a) have the final flag set in their bytecode, and b) give a verifyerror if you try to extend them
01:15:16 <ais523> there seem to be some differences between Java and the JVM here
01:15:45 <fizzie> I guess extending them that way would fall outside the scope of the JLS, not being part of the language.
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01:19:18 <ais523> anyway, this has helped; it explains why Modifier.isFinal() always returns false for anonymous classes
01:19:27 <ais523> the JLS says they're not final, so the reflection API says they're not final
01:19:31 <ais523> even though the bytecode says otherwise
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02:21:46 <elite_g33515> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL 415-349-5666 #LRH EFNETvtesfhtx: Vorpal MDude HackEgo erdic lynn sleffy Lord_of_Life shachaf joast zzo38 MrBusiness Lymia ATMunn Melvar sebbu augur Bowserinator Cale FreeFull sprocklem newsham_ fnodeuser grumble Sgeo fungot
02:21:47 <fungot> elite_g33515: i'm not suggesting it should be possible between and?:).
02:21:51 <elite_g33515> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL 415-349-5666 #LRH EFNETgoeniznve: heroux jix garit izabera sftp sleffy Soni danieljabailey ski Lord_of_Life doesthiswork sprocklem Bowserinator Vorpal ineiros sparr Melvar lifthrasiir zzo38 brandonson ais523 lynn jaboja Hack
02:21:56 <elite_g33515> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL 415-349-5666 #LRH EFNETcrnfagcwi: GeekDude sparr jaboja MrBusiness ski aloril boily Soni MDude sftp staffehn_ Deewiant FreeFull brandonson Sgeo ATMunn Warrigal Cale Melvar erdic \oren\_ zzo38 lifthrasiir fungot con
02:21:56 <fungot> elite_g33515: or just you this: fnord is released! give them their own if their environment isn't working to subvert that.
02:21:57 <augur> oh now its here lol
02:22:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
02:22:02 <elite_g33515> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jYqzJErTI LRH IS LIVE NOW!! CALL 415-349-5666 #LRH EFNETjnqnnlxvv: aloril doesthiswork Vorpal contrapumpkin newsham_ Bowserinator sleffy staffehn_ sprocklem joast brandonson fnodeuser ais523 tromp heroux Warrigal \oren\_ LeoLambda deltab Melvar izabera Cale shachaf sebbu grumble Deewiant esowiki
02:22:02 -!- ais523 has kicked elite_g33515 I don't have a better default kick reason, but if you're being kicked, you should know why.
02:22:30 <ais523> GeekDude: it works fine as a default kick message
02:22:54 <ais523> if I need to kick someone for a non-obvious reason I'd normally have time to explain why
02:23:41 <ATMunn> so that's the spambot everybody's talking about
02:24:10 <ais523> I'm going to stay decloaked a bit longer just in case it comes back
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02:26:53 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH what the my eyes! D:
02:27:17 <ais523> don't follow links posted by spambots/trolls, in case that isn't obvious
02:27:33 <boily> I didn't follow the links. the colours. they are dangerous.
02:27:43 <ais523> do you want me to +c the channel? I can do that
02:28:18 <ais523> basically removes formatting codes from messages
02:28:26 <ais523> you can still send them but the colors won't be there
02:28:30 <ais523> it's useful when people are abusing colors, as seen above
02:28:56 <shachaf> This is the third channel that bot has pinged me at.
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02:33:06 <FreeFull> I think there's another flag that stops coloured messages from coming through entirely
02:37:58 <zzo38> I see nothing about stopping such messages from being sent.
02:39:23 <FreeFull> Ok, seems freenode doesn't have that channel mode
02:39:52 <zzo38> There is +C which disallow some messages, but it doesn't do that, and is not very flexible either. Better might be that you can program the exceptions, as well as disallowing specific characters (any character in range 0 to 31 you can disallow if you wish; you can also disable codes 128-255 as a group).
02:40:26 <zzo38> Yes, and it doesn't even block all CTCPs.
02:40:37 <zzo38> That is why I suggested to reprogram it to be more flexible.
02:40:45 <FreeFull> There are other IRCDs that do have blocking messages if they have colour codes
02:40:48 <zzo38> (Then you can block colours too if you like to do)
02:41:10 <ais523> FreeFull: it is, actually, it sent me a personal CTCP (not a channel CTCP) asking for my client version, no idea why
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02:41:56 <ais523> an offensively-named one?
02:42:03 <ais523> that happened to me earlier
02:42:12 <ais523> I have my client set to not autoaccept invites but it's a fairly ingenious form of spam
02:42:23 <FreeFull> 01:56:12 [Freenode] -!- annarel129 invites you to #FreeFullisan****r9
02:42:42 <zzo38> I look at HELP UMODE they don't mention blocking invites.
02:43:39 <zzo38> (I do not know if +g blocks invites)
02:43:42 <FreeFull> shachaf: That'd be a weird country
02:44:04 <FreeFull> I only got one invite, so not much of an issue
02:44:33 <zzo38> Even if there is no such server setting, you can block them in the client if it becomesa problem I suppose
02:45:52 <zzo38> (At least in program I use, the /F command can be used to block anything that can be matched by a regular expression.)
02:47:03 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
02:47:20 <ais523> don't want to stay decloaked too long, and if the bot hasn't come back yet then it's probably no more likely to hit here than anywhere else
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02:51:10 <zzo38> Yes, other programs might have too
02:53:34 <zzo38> (Well, /F can do stuff other than block, too; you can also program it to ring a bell, highlight the message, or log the message in another window; or any combination of these effects (which can also be combined with suppressing the message).)
03:00:08 <sleffy> augur, oh wait you're in here
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03:09:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: that java anonymous class stuff sounds crazy
03:10:38 <ais523> what we're doing at work is crazy (and somewhat proprietary), we thought that doing that might help
03:10:41 <ais523> although I now think it's unnecessary
03:11:35 <wob_jonas> ruby does let you derive from anonymous classes
03:17:38 <wob_jonas> but then, ruby is a language that in general lets you do anything, even the stupidest abstraction-breaking things
03:18:30 <wob_jonas> you can redefine builtin methods and all that
03:24:54 <augur> sleffy: ive been here since 2007!
03:25:09 <sleffy> I've been here for less than a year!
03:28:41 <augur> shachaf does not like me
03:31:56 <augur> its the ol' shachaf-augur animosity rearing it ugly head!
03:32:07 <augur> no one even knows where it started b/c it's been like a decade!
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03:44:42 <wob_jonas> I wonder, could you have a blue spirit creature with like "When no opponent controls two or more creatures, sacrifice ~."? Because it's like a ghost that only has power if there's someone who believes in him? Or would that be a white-only ability?
03:44:55 <wob_jonas> Say, is a 2/2 for {U} with that possible?
03:46:17 <zzo38> I don't know any of those question
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04:59:50 <zzo38> One idea of a Magic: the Gathering card: Enchanted object has all names. (It is a bit like Spy Kit, but not only for creatures, and can be used with opponent's cards too, and possibly even spells (if it says "enchant spell or permanent" and has flash), and includes legendary names and names of non-creature cards, too.)
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08:09:48 <zzo38> "When all conventional explanations for a phenomenon are ruled out, are able to accept paranormal ones." I would think that in order to accept paranormal ones, you would have to define paranormal ones properly first. Furthermore, how do you know you have not missed something? It is good to consider all of the possibilities, but, you are going to miss some.
08:10:44 <zzo38> Still, it is good if you do not dismiss it out of hand.
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08:50:19 <sebbu> zzo38, we never know we didn't missed one
08:51:11 <sebbu> furthermore, even if a conventional explanation works, we never know if it's because we're in a very specific usecase or not
08:52:50 <sebbu> there are quite a few "conventional explanations" we thought to be true all the time / for all cases, only to discover they only applied to certains conditions / referentials
08:53:38 <sebbu> beside, some other explanation might have similar/close result
08:53:48 <sebbu> and we might not be able to see/detect/measure the difference
08:54:09 <zzo38> Yes, you are correct; that is happening a lot, which is why we will need the more scientific experiment in future to figure out better.
08:54:54 <sebbu> sometimes, we even know there is a difference, but it's just smaller than the margin of error of our measure equipment
08:55:06 <zzo38> Unless you can prove mathematically that you can't miss one (which is impossible since neither the exact law of physics nor the exact circumstances in use is perfectly known)
08:55:10 <zzo38> sebbu: Yes, that too.
08:55:27 <sebbu> mathematics can be true
08:57:09 <sebbu> i mean, you can find an irrational number as a speed/length, which is physically impossible because it has a precision smaller than the atom size
08:57:39 <sebbu> so physically, Pythatogore's algorithm is false
08:58:00 <sebbu> it's close to reality though
08:59:25 <sebbu> even for mathematics, you probably saw a case when you had 2 points you thought were the same, but later demonstrated they weren't ?
09:00:21 <sebbu> (which isn't a matter of mathematics, but our pereption of the graphical representation - geometry)
09:00:58 <zzo38> Mathematics is difference from physical world. Scientific is not as perfect as mathematics. Even if you try to use these thing in mathematics to figure the physical world but it doesn't work because you are using the incorrect modeling and incorrect measurement and so on.
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09:03:19 <sebbu> or things works in a particular usecase which we thought to be universal
09:03:23 <zzo38> But, yes, the situations are not as simple as the simplified explanations make it that I have quoted above.
09:03:29 <sebbu> ie, einstein relativity law
09:03:39 <zzo38> sebbu: Yes. I think you mentioned those already; you are correct.
09:04:06 <sebbu> only works in general usecase, neither in microscopic/nanoscopic referential, neither in black hole proximity referential
09:04:53 <sebbu> but they were only discovered years later
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11:48:09 <HackEgo> 1/2:violation//Violation is the act of playing an instrument in the viola family. \ relrod//A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force. \ imagine//Imagine was the only song not interrupted after two stanzas on the opening ceremony of the 2012 London Olympic Games, a calm moment in an otherwise chaotic rush through fifty pop songs. \
11:48:10 <HackEgo> 2/2:bike//Bike is from Luxembourg. \ belgium//The plural form of "Belgium" is "Belgia".
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19:36:35 <Slereah_> Would you prefer an Ehresmann connection
19:45:05 <oerjan> well this channel is always in free fall
19:45:22 <oerjan> but today we got some elite spam, i see
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19:48:27 <fizzie> I would like to lodge a complaint regarding the spam. The initial header was all U+2584 LOWER HALF BLOCK. Alternating between that and U+2580 UPPER HALF BLOCK would have provided a much more higher-fidelity approximation of the header on channels with the +c mode set. (Saw it on ##scheme like that.)
19:51:52 <zzo38> An approximation of what header?
19:54:22 <fizzie> The initial ▄▄▄▄▄ and so on, in the spammer's messages.
19:55:02 <fizzie> I think it should've been ▄▀▄▀▄▀... without colors.
19:55:22 <fizzie> Now it was just ▄▄▄▄▄▄.
20:01:26 <oerjan> is the shtetl-optimized RSS feed broken for anyone else?
20:01:50 <oerjan> i've had to check it manually since he posted that Googatory thing
20:02:11 <oerjan> (and i already tried deleting and resubscribing)
20:05:51 <fizzie> It's worked for me in Feedly, but I'm not exactly sure which feed that's picking up from.
20:06:12 <fizzie> I'll check if that's visible somewhere in the UI when I get home.
20:10:12 <oerjan> gah my connection to nvg is so crappy it's awful to view the feed with less there
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20:16:54 <int-e> oerjan: one addendum to buzzfizz: you can combine a modulo n counter and a modulo m counter into a single modulo (n*m) counter without any coprimality assumption; to test for 0, just test both for 0; to increment, increment the first, then increment the second if the first counter is 0.
20:18:46 <zzo38> I don't like the +c and +C and if I was implementing them, I will do it differently. Instead, it is one mode, that takes a 32-bit number as a parameter. Any bit which is set blocks the corresponding control character. Additionally, bit0 blocks all character codes higher than 127, bit10 blocks code 127, and bit13 may also have another use.
20:19:15 <zzo38> Another thing I would do is to add a new mode to set a write-password. You can join without the password, but if you enter the correct password then you are automatically voiced.
20:20:01 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this please?
20:21:29 <int-e> oerjan: So we can simulate a Minsky-like machine with counters bounded by a fixed power of the input (for simplicity assuming that the whole input is encoded into a single number), which seems to be a good target for LBAs.
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20:25:33 <oerjan> int-e: did you see my discussion with ais523 yesterday? i was assuming passing an extra argument that is k^length of usable tape, although with your method that can be k^length of input instead.
20:27:34 <oerjan> and then you get a bounded turing tape via two counters like that
20:29:18 <oerjan> (i think either method counts as proving LBA-completeness)
20:30:17 <int-e> oerjan: I saw parts of it, my remark was aimed at getting rid of that auxiliary constant.
20:30:36 <int-e> (I don't mind it terribly but if we can do without, I prefer that)
20:30:41 <oerjan> you still need something in case the input happens to have many initial zeroes.
20:31:04 <oerjan> but you could just pass the sum of them, actually.
20:31:13 <int-e> yeah, some sort of end-of-tape marker cannot be avoided, I guess.
20:32:13 <oerjan> this just needs a proof that if you can do arithmetic mod n then you can do it mod m for m<=n.
20:32:53 <oerjan> where m is k^l in this case.
20:32:56 <int-e> well you can do arithmetic mod m in brainfuck
20:33:02 <int-e> (with bounded cells)
20:33:35 * int-e was more interested in the countercall discussion anyway
20:38:52 <int-e> (clampedness is a clever notion)
20:39:21 <int-e> of course we'd like to show that any function is either clamped or total? hmm.
20:43:13 <int-e> Well that doesn't rule out TC-ness by itself.
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21:08:38 <quintopia> there should be a concept like turing-complete that somehow ranks the fitness of a language for each purpose. like "functional-complete" would mean you dont have to bend over backward or accept slowdowns to do functional programming
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21:28:36 <wob_jonas> "we can simulate a Minsky-like machine with counters bounded by a fixed power of the input" => wait really? so you can compile at least all Chomsky-L2 languages?
21:31:14 <int-e> `le/rn LBA//This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing.
21:31:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'lba': This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing.
21:32:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: Yes, LBAs are powerful enough to accept context-sensitive languages.
21:35:35 <wob_jonas> zzo38: "Enchanted object has all names" => hmm, have I asked you yet how you'd modify your variant rule about object names since host and augment creatures are available?
21:38:36 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Not as far as I know, but host/augment are Un-cards. I have made up some optional rules for use with non-Un-cards, although it isn't the same as the Unstable host/augment.
21:39:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: eg. to affirm that an augmented Ninja Octopus doesn't have the same name as a two creature type Ninja Octopus token, and that there's no way to shut down an augment Steam-Powered Man with Pithing Needle.
21:39:23 <zzo38> Even if you do not want to do this, there is another simple alternative that works with my variant rules about object names: The name is an ordered pair.
21:41:22 <zzo38> Whether or not you can choose an ordered pair when asked to choose a name should be made consistent with official rules, if any.
21:41:51 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you're rarely asked to choose a name. usually you're asked to choose a card name.
21:42:22 <int-e> . o O ( Search your library for a token named Fred. )
21:43:28 <zzo38> But if you want to play with Un-cards, then you should ignore my variant rules for names anyways, which are not applicable to Un-cards.
21:44:12 <wob_jonas> eg. Pithing Needle and Cranial Extraction make you choose a card name
21:45:11 <wob_jonas> My First Tome might technically let you choose any name, but it doesn't make much sense to choose a name that isn't the name of a card
21:46:08 <wob_jonas> _____ also lets you choose any name, so I think you can make it named either Ninja Octopus the augmented permanent or Ninja Octopus the token
21:47:37 <wob_jonas> What the frack? Unhinged was printed in a language other than English too? And not just one or a few exceptional cards, but many cards?
21:47:44 <wob_jonas> I was sure it was only printed in English.
21:48:56 <wob_jonas> (I think ____ is restricted to wear only card names by a Maro-unruling, but I don't obey those.)
21:48:57 <zzo38> Like I said, I think my variant rules are not for use with Un-cards, which have their own rules for names anyways.
21:49:51 <zzo38> But, of course, you don't have to pay any attention to this; you can make up different rules for Un-cards if everyone is agree, since in many cases no official rule helps anyways.
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22:03:58 <zzo38> (I have also written rules for last strike before Unstable was announced, and they work a bit differently than the rules for last strike in Unstable. If you are using my custom cards together with Un-cards in a Un-cards game, then you should use the rules from Unstable instead. Otherwise, I think my rules are better.)
22:13:41 <wob_jonas> zzo38: hmm. I'm not quite satisfied with either set of rules. Your rules imply that you can have a creature assign damage three times, the same way as it used to be possible to get a creature to assign combat damage twice by removing its first strike.
22:15:00 <zzo38> OK, what do you suggest instead?
22:15:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: although it's not easy, because you need to have a double-striking creature that doesn't have last strike during the normal combat damage step, but has last strike during the last strike step, and there are barely any cards that let you manipulate last strike.
22:15:36 <zzo38> It is possible I made a mistake in my description, and should correct it.
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22:18:22 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure. I definitely don't know a good set of rules that can support triple strike, which one Unstable card requires.
22:18:39 <zzo38> Actually, the rules I wrote do not allow you to get a creature to assign combat damage twice by removing first strike. I looked at it now and it does not say that.
22:19:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, I know. it's only the very old M:tG rules that allowed that sort of first strike abuse.
22:19:43 <zzo38> My rules say that if a creature assigns damage during the first strike step, it can't assign damage during the normal strike step.
22:20:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but your rules introduce a similar abuse of letting a creature deal combat damage three times by manipulating double strike and last strike. It's just that that's horribly difficult because we don't have the good tools for manipulating last strike, like auras.
22:22:11 <zzo38> Ah, yes, you are right about that.
22:22:30 <zzo38> Now I see what you mean.
22:22:47 <oerjan> int-e: one data point: d : + , f : d - - - , then f is total, not clamped, but not quite always increasing.
22:24:07 <wob_jonas> You'd need to have a Wall of Lust, and cytoshape it to a Boros Swiftblade in the ordinary combat damage step.
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22:24:54 <wob_jonas> you need a Boros Swiftblade, and cytoshape it to a Wall of Lust in the ordinary combat damage step
22:25:56 <oerjan> <int-e> wob_jonas: Yes, LBAs are powerful enough to accept context-sensitive languages. <-- precisely same class iirc
22:30:15 <moony> 2 and 3 dimensional hardware parts arn't unique. Why not 4 dimensional hardware? :)
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22:34:50 <wob_jonas> moony: do you count time as a dimension?
22:45:34 <int-e> oerjan: well, precisely the same for decision problems
22:46:41 <int-e> does "LBA" imply that?
22:46:57 * int-e should probably hunt down a formal definition.
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23:12:40 <oerjan> int-e: hm wikipedia says LBAs can be nondeterministic.
23:13:21 <oerjan> and it's not known whether that's more powerful.
23:14:36 <oerjan> doesn't seem to say anything about function problems.
23:17:58 <wob_jonas> I thought it was known they're eqivalent and pretty easy to prove
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23:18:31 <wob_jonas> they're non-deterministic by default, but that doesn't add anything new
23:19:54 <int-e> wob_jonas: the usual proof squares the required space, which works great for NPSPACE = DPSPACE, but not so well with a linear space bound.
23:22:49 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitch%27s_theorem (I had forgotten the name)
23:30:52 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: doesn't have one. calling from a public payphone.
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00:15:42 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:15:48 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
00:15:51 <HackEgo> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac.
00:16:38 <wob_jonas> why isn't curry's paradox in the food section?
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00:32:04 <moony> Taneb, someone asked about a invention. Go answer it.
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03:53:05 <zzo38> Is there a existing program that will strip out pages from a DVI file that match pages from another file? If not, then I can write such program
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03:57:36 <constant> zzo38: I know of no such utility.
03:57:51 <zzo38> Have you ever wanted to have such a utility?
03:58:54 <constant> no, but I've wanted to play with dvi files before
03:59:34 <zzo38> I have written a program to render DVI to PBM (for use with programs such as foo2zjs)
04:00:56 <constant> zzo38: depending on the specifics you may have better luck playing with pdf files
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04:19:20 <zzo38> Maybe there is such a program for PDF, I don't know. If there isn't one for DVI then I should write that program, I think, though.
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11:10:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I don't think I wanted that. I have used the dviselect dviconcat dvitodvi programs (from the texlive distr) to separate specific pages from a dvi and append them to a new dvi file.
11:10:28 <b_jonas> But for that, I gave the page numbers explicitly.
11:20:38 <esowiki> [[AAEEEEEEEEEI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53635 * Jabutosama * (+5416) created the page
11:21:12 <zzo38> Then that will help with those things, at least. Still, at least the program I described is something I wanted, so if I write such program then at least I might use.
11:23:14 <b_jonas> Also, I think Knuth's cweb description of TeX specify the DVI format, so you might want to read that along with these programs.
11:23:32 <b_jonas> I mean, you'd have to compare pages, and I don't think anyone's implemented that.
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11:24:01 <zzo38> I have implemented programs that read DVI format before, so I do know how it works.
11:25:15 <zzo38> I do have some ideas about how to compare pages.
11:33:29 <zzo38> (But, not quite all of the ideas yet.)
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18:10:44 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
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18:51:28 <esowiki> [[TinCan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53636&oldid=21235 * Dehodson * (+48) Add link to Try It Online
18:51:51 <esowiki> [[TinCan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53637&oldid=53636 * Dehodson * (+16) /* External resources */
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19:01:02 <int-e> Hmm, I didn't expect QC and GG to ever come this close. "The voice".
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19:06:26 <int-e> `welcome PocketSpaghetti
19:06:27 <HackEgo> PocketSpaghetti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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20:57:13 * oerjan has bought his traditional nutella balls for christmas
20:59:00 <oerjan> you may have another one if you must
21:00:16 <oerjan> `learn nutella//Nutella is a nutty substance. Taneb invented it for use in his automatic squirrel feeders.
21:00:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'nutella//nutella': nutella//Nutella is a nutty substance. Taneb invented it for use in his automatic squirrel feeders.
21:00:52 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: food//mushrooms//mushrooms, nutella/
21:00:53 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unknown command: `m'
21:01:02 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: food//s/mushrooms//mushrooms, nutella/
21:01:03 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 15: unknown option to `s'
21:01:17 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: food//s/mushrooms/mushrooms, nutella/
21:01:19 <HackEgo> tanebventions: food//Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
21:01:34 <oerjan> my mind is going, i can feel it.
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21:03:11 <oerjan> critically stoned, by the looks of it
21:04:26 <wob_jonas> So, cryptography stuff, I want to understand in theory how to choose what size of hash function. Simplest case: if I compute 2**n hashes (even of inputs an adversary chooses), and want less than 2**-s probability that an attacker can compute a preimage of any of them, and the attacker can compute 2**T hash values on each of 2**P parallel processors
21:04:26 <wob_jonas> , then I need a hash output of at least T+P+n+s bits, right?
21:05:43 <wob_jonas> But if instead, I want to make sure that the attacker can't find a collision in the hash on arbitrary data he supplies, then instead I need at least 2*T+2*P+s bits, right?
21:07:24 <wob_jonas> Now if the attacker has a really good quantum computer that can also compute 2**T hash values on each of 2**P parallel processors, then for a preimage attack, I need a hash output of at least 2*T+P+n+s bits, right?
21:07:46 <int-e> . o O ( find the outlier http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/puzzles.jpg )
21:08:46 <wob_jonas> But the question is, how many bits do I need to avoid a collision against an adversary with a good quantum computer? It must be between 3*T+P+s and 3*T+3*P+s, but what exactly is the factor of the P?
21:09:26 <wob_jonas> int-e: the size 4 snake cube (I guess that's what it is) on the left hand side. that's not a permutation puzzle.
21:09:37 <int-e> yeah it's a snake one
21:09:56 <int-e> and one that I've only solved once, actually... with the help of a computer program
21:10:17 <int-e> so you could say that I haven't solved it :)
21:10:19 <wob_jonas> int-e: that's almost all big cubes by the way, strange. don't you have more copies of smaller sizes?
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21:11:23 <wob_jonas> Ok, maybe not almost all big cubes
21:11:24 <int-e> hmm, I guess I have two more 3x3x3 cubes around, but not on that shelf
21:11:36 <wob_jonas> does have two 3x3x3, and two megaminx
21:12:09 <int-e> And going above 8 is probably not going to be interesting to me.
21:12:14 <wob_jonas> should buy a better 3x3x3 or two, and a 2x2x2 probably
21:12:52 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't even care much about the 5x5x5, but I know that some people like bigger cubes
21:13:11 <int-e> solving centers is kind of fun
21:13:48 <wob_jonas> By the way, my problem with cubes is that there's so little decent written material about it. Apparently everyone only makes useless video tutorials on youtube. I'd like proper written explanations about what people do.
21:13:59 <wob_jonas> Like, descriptions of various methods.
21:14:29 <int-e> it's all intuitive ;-)
21:14:30 <wob_jonas> Fast computers have ruined the cube.
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21:28:32 <int-e> wob_jonas: The reason that there are only few descriptions may well be that to a large extent the methods for the 4x4x4 cube generalize to arbitrary sizes.
21:29:17 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, but there are already too few descriptions for the 4x4x4
21:29:25 <wob_jonas> I want to learn the 4x4x4, and it's for that that I don't find enough descriptions
21:32:50 <wob_jonas> As for the written descriptions, my only problem is that this stupid English-based FB LR UD notation got spread. Even if you insist on English, all consonants like NF LR TB would work better, but I'm partial to the Hungarian ST NK FL.
21:35:23 <wob_jonas> But even this way, a written description is better than those stupid video tutorials.
21:41:04 <int-e> Hmm, http://www.speedcubing.com/chris/4-solution.html looks okay for a start.
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21:43:58 <int-e> (and I think the first two steps, centers and edges, are intuitive enough... fixing the parity problems in the last step is what requires additional algorithms. (And I've noticed in videos that top speedcubers seem to do something a bit different there, but I haven't figured out their trick.)
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21:52:53 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, if you want to fix the 2 bits of parity in the end, then I do know more or less how to do the centers, although I'm doing them with a somewhat slow algorithm and might want a faster one.
21:53:33 <wob_jonas> but I would like to know a better way to pair the edges, and at least good ways to fix both parities, possibly also ways to keep the parity from earlier
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21:59:03 <int-e> I'm fixing the edge flip the moment I finish the first two layers of the 3x3x3 cube.
22:00:08 <int-e> But anyway I'm not really aiming to be fast... and if I were I would probably be working on the 3x3x3 last layer.
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22:03:47 <wob_jonas> int-e: that sounds like a reasonable strategy. how about the permutation?
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22:10:21 <int-e> @tell wob_jonas Swapping edges? I do that last, I don't know how to get any advantage out of doing it earlier.
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22:12:17 <int-e> wob_jonas: (lambdabot has a message for you)
22:14:29 <int-e> Anyway the point is that miraculously, the combination I have for flipping an edge, if one turns half of the cube instead of just the inner slices, only messes up the top layer; trying the same "optimization" for the swap of two opposite edges would mess up edges and centers on the sides.
22:15:40 <int-e> But I'm also bad at spotting the parity mismatch in the piece permutations, while spotting an extra flipped edge is trivial.
22:15:59 <int-e> (in the last layer)
22:20:37 <wob_jonas> int-e: so at what stage do you fix the 3x3x3 permutation, and if you have to fix it, how much do you have to redo?
22:21:42 <int-e> not sure what you mean by 3x3x3 permutation
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22:23:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: I take it you're solving a 4x4x4 this way: first solve all centers, then pair each 12 pairs of edges, then start solving the cube as if it was a 3x3x3, with a 3x3x3 algorithm turning only faces.
22:23:30 <int-e> I have centers, edges, f2l, optional edge flip, last layer (slow), optional edge swap, so the piece permutation parity is fixed last
22:24:16 <wob_jonas> If you do that, there are two things that can go wrong: the edge flip parity of the 3x3x3 can be wrong, so you have to flip an edge, or the permutation parity of the 3x3x3 can be wrong, so you have to fix that.
22:24:56 <wob_jonas> Ok. So the optional edge swap is the very last swap and it changes nothing else than the edge swap. Ok.
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22:33:07 * oerjan suddenly realizes wob_jonas used the correct preposition with "remind" in an iwc forum message
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22:34:34 <int-e> oh well, early start tomorrow, good night
22:35:14 <int-e> (Hmm, I seem to always use "oh well" before saying "good night". Oh well, that can't be helped. :-P)
22:36:47 <oerjan> . o O ( Oh well, he said, as he feel into it )
22:37:17 <HackEgo> muphrys law//Mumphrie's Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment.
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22:39:11 <int-e> oerjan: https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/c/chesterton/gk/man_who_knew_too_much/chapter6.html hth
22:39:26 <int-e> (I read that last night)
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22:46:35 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh wow, that's a very old web page (on the 4x4x4 description). that really proves that youtube ruined everything.
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23:07:46 <wob_jonas> Ok, so what I asked is at least not a trivial question => https://blog.cr.yp.to/20171017-collisions.html
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00:23:54 <lambdabot> CYUL 200000Z 26012G18KT 15SM FEW030 BKN042 03/00 A2952 RMK SC1SC6 SLP001
00:23:57 <lambdabot> KATL 192352Z 29003KT 10SM -RA BKN020 BKN060 OVC110 16/14 A3014 RMK AO2 RAB51 SLP208 P0000 60000 T01560139 10172 20150 55002
00:24:07 <boily> 16!%!%??!?!???%&?&(%?&@???@@@@@!!!!!!!!
00:26:07 <lambdabot> EGLL 200020Z AUTO 28003KT 7000 BKN004 OVC010 07/06 Q1035 BECMG 4000 BR
00:26:18 <fizzie> They're saying double digits for the holidays.
00:26:58 <fizzie> Ooh, it's cow weather back "home".
00:26:59 <lambdabot> EFHK 200020Z 22008KT 9000 -SG BKN003 M00/M00 Q1027 TEMPO 4000
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00:35:33 <boily> `relcome MrBismuth
00:35:34 <HackEgo> MrBismuth: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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00:51:32 <quintopia> and i can take or leave it if i choose
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01:24:50 <fizzie> I was going to say a "Vegi bot" from someone's SEO company is crawling the wiki and little confused about how URIs work.
01:25:13 <fizzie> It just tried to fetch "/irc://...", for example.
01:25:38 <wob_jonas> fizzie: that's not _too_ unreasonable actually
01:26:04 <wob_jonas> fizzie: given how often people put incorrect links in informal writings that require a bit of creativity to interpret
01:26:21 <wob_jonas> for a search engine it makes sense to speculatively try to modify a link in case a modified version works
01:26:35 <wob_jonas> like, you know, trying to remove some punctuation mark from the end
01:28:04 <fizzie> Actually, not quite sure where we even have an irc:// link, the one on [[Esolang:Community portal]] is a regular HTTP link to webchat.freenode.net.
01:30:09 <fizzie> There was an earlier crawler which crawled every non-main-namespace page something like 16 times if not more, because it was trying to access something like "/wiki/Esolangs%3AFoo", for which Mediawiki sends a 302 to "/wiki/Esolangs:Foo" (I guess to make the location bar look nicer), but then something inside the crawler re-encoded the : back to %3A before following it.
01:30:43 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yeah, I remember you said that.
01:31:21 <fizzie> Wonder what <firstname><lastname>seoagency.com even does with their own crawler.
01:32:03 <wob_jonas> can you tell a specific url with that irc thing in it?
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01:33:00 <fizzie> It tried three: /irc://irc.freenode.org/esoteric /irc://irc.afternet.org/linc /irc://freenode/DDR,isnick
01:33:42 <fizzie> (Also it used www.esolangs.org for every single request, which just redirect to the non-www. one.)
01:34:52 <fizzie> https://www.webmasterworld.com/search_engine_spiders/4817453.htm "Despite the proclamation "we follow your robots.txt before crawling" they did not even request robots.txt."
01:34:55 <fizzie> The Internet is a noisy place.
01:35:49 <wob_jonas> fizzie: that's hard to tell. they might have requested robots.txt from another host.
01:36:20 <fizzie> It's possible. They didn't include the user agent in the request, at least.
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04:30:32 * ais523 saw the typo "12nd" on a link (used as an ordinal number) and mentally corrected it to "tweldest"
04:30:47 <ais523> before I realised that that didn't make sense either, although I knew what it meant
04:30:53 <ais523> (presumably the correct correction was "12th")
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08:36:52 <\oren\_> In what era did anyone introduce themselves with "wa ga na wa"
08:37:19 <variable> I love VLC. Its icon changes to a a christmas hat during this time of year
08:38:07 <variable> https://www.dropbox.com/s/csikqo16g4pxp7r/Screenshot%202017-12-20%2000.38.04.png?dl=0
08:38:16 <\oren\_> holy shit you're right I just checked
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09:26:32 <variable> silly Q: is it possible to non-deterministic but turing complete?
09:27:00 <variable> or is there some version of turing completeness defined for non-deterimistic processes
09:27:17 <variable> note: I'm not talking abut a NDTM
09:27:32 <Taneb> I... was just about to mention NDTMs
09:27:43 <Taneb> What precisely do you mean by non-deterministic?
09:28:01 <variable> a transition between states decided by a random value
09:28:25 <variable> or an action to the tape decided by a random value
09:28:42 <Taneb> Like Whenever, maybe?
09:28:55 <variable> oh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probabilistic_Turing_machine
09:29:01 <variable> that's exactly what I'm looking for
09:29:13 <variable> the transition table contains a propability function
09:29:41 <variable> what I wasn't sure how we'd defined acceptance
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09:36:25 <variable> Taneb: unrelated - I forgot about whenever
09:36:25 <variable> but I really wanted to write a language like it
09:39:20 <Taneb> Remember the two cakes rule
09:39:43 <Taneb> While you might see this amazing esolang that somebody else made that you think is way better than yours
09:40:03 <Taneb> An audience will look at your esolang, and look at the other esolang, and say "Wow! Two esolangs!"
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10:53:09 <Taneb> @djinn (((a -> b) -> v) -> v) -> ((a -> v) -> v) -> (b -> v) -> v
10:53:09 <lambdabot> f a b c = b (\ d -> a (\ e -> c (e d)))
10:55:42 <fizzie> @. pl djinn (((a -> b) -> v) -> v) -> ((a -> v) -> v) -> (b -> v) -> v
10:55:42 <lambdabot> f = flip (.) . (. ((. flip id) . (.))) . (.)
10:56:14 <Taneb> It's amazing how easy it is to make lambdabot flip out
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11:27:41 <Taneb> :t (>>>) . (. ((. (&)) . (.))) . (.)
11:27:42 <lambdabot> (((a -> b) -> c1) -> c2) -> ((a -> c2) -> c3) -> (b -> c1) -> c3
11:28:18 <Taneb> Hmm, does this suggest a type-changing continuation indexed applicative?
11:35:41 <Taneb> @djinn (a -> (b -> j) -> k) -> ((a -> i) -> j) -> (b -> i) -> k
11:35:54 <Taneb> OK, so we can't make it into a monad quite
11:36:04 <Taneb> @djinn (a -> (b -> i) -> i) -> ((a -> i) -> i) -> (b -> i) -> i
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11:36:15 <Taneb> @. type djinn (a -> (b -> i) -> i) -> ((a -> i) -> i) -> (b -> i) -> i
11:36:17 <lambdabot> Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block?
11:36:27 <Taneb> @type \a b c -> b (\d -> a d c)
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11:36:29 <lambdabot> (t1 -> t2 -> t3) -> ((t1 -> t3) -> t4) -> t2 -> t4
11:45:47 <Taneb> So, conclusion: there is a continuation indexed applicative but not monad
11:51:53 <Taneb> Nezt question is, is such a thing useful?
11:52:39 <Taneb> Actually, https://gist.github.com/pthariensflame/5716594 has the monad instance I was looking for
11:52:43 <Taneb> Why didn't djinn find it?
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13:38:15 <b_jonas> Hmm. I think I somehow got an error message in swedish from a program somehow. Strange bug.
13:38:43 <b_jonas> I closed the window too quickly so I'm not quite sure. I'm trying to reproduce it.
13:39:32 <b_jonas> (Also was encoded wrong for the terminal.)
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16:10:04 <b_jonas> ais523: I've been thinking and reading a bit more about this cryptography thing, and it's even more complicated than I thought
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21:40:29 * oerjan is trying to find a counterexample to int-e's conjecture that countercall functions are either clamped or total, but had a bit of a brain fart
21:42:39 <oerjan> i _do_ seem to find some functions that aren't clamped but don't grow uniformly
21:43:02 <oerjan> like f : -3 g 6; g : -6 f 3
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21:45:47 <oerjan> seems like that works with multiplying it by a constant too
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21:54:55 <wob_jonas> I just ran into the limitation of FAT32 that it doesn't store files larger than 4 gigabytes. I was trying to copy a large archive to an SD card. I'm recreating the archive split to one gigabyte sized volumes now. Good thing that option still exists, remaining from the days of floppy disks.
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22:03:56 <wob_jonas> Apparently Intercal is mainstream enough that even Donald Knuth has published a program written in it.
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22:12:09 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i vaguely recall knuth was somehow the impetus to ais523 and esr merging their c-intercal implementations.
22:12:51 <oerjan> or something like that. i said it was vague.
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22:24:54 <wob_jonas> And yes, Donald Knuth is awesome. His books are probably an important factor in why I like software stuff so much.
22:25:32 <wob_jonas> As in, when I was young, they were the most awesome books in the school library, so I tried to read them a lot. Obviously there's a lot that I didn't understand in them.
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22:53:36 <boily> oerjan: how's life in northland?
22:53:39 * oerjan saw someone named "Kim Jong-hyun" in wikipedia's recent deaths list, and thought "so did he kill another family member?" but it turned out it was some completely unrelated south korean.
22:54:29 <oerjan> boily: i've bought my traditional nutella balls for christmas
22:55:31 <oerjan> also the snow has mostly rained away again
22:57:29 <boily> the infamous nutella balls strike again I see.
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00:03:18 <\oren\_> oerjan: he's a famous pop singer
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01:55:40 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53638&oldid=53333 * B jonas * (+26)
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12:06:38 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53639&oldid=53638 * B jonas * (+30)
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13:01:39 <mroman> Are there proofs for the halting problem that don't rely on I/O?
13:02:23 <mroman> `if H(P) then endless_loop(); else halt();` usually assumes that H is an external "machine/program" you invoke
13:02:24 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `P' \ bash: -c: line 0: `if H(P) then endless_loop(); else halt();` usually assumes that H is an external "machine/program" you invoke'
13:02:44 <mroman> if you disallow I/O then P would have to contain H
13:03:20 <esowiki> [[Gb gates RISC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53640 * B jonas * (+4593) Created page with "{{DISPLAYTITLE: Gb_gates RISC}} '''Gb_gates RISC''' is a very small hypothetical microprocessor created by Donald Knuth. He has created a software implementation of this micr..."
13:04:32 <esowiki> [[Gb gates RISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53641&oldid=53640 * B jonas * (+90)
13:05:12 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53642&oldid=53628 * B jonas * (+20)
13:05:21 <int-e> mroman: H should be inlined. And in any case the proofs rely on interpreters, because you cannot pass programs around, only descriptions of programs.
13:05:54 <mroman> but then this means that P knows what H is
13:05:57 <mroman> otherwise it can't inline it.
13:06:02 <HackEgo> 2 tablespoon of the whipped cream into the pan in lightly floured \ get and deep flour and including for 1 hour. Top with side of \ the sugar, chopped fresh chop more. \ \ Recipe By : Low-Bobbie Cooking \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: ICE ENCION COOKIES \ Categories: Desserts, Germanaus \ Yield: 4
13:06:31 <mroman> so the program would contain its own "halting function"
13:07:59 <int-e> mroman: So what you really do is write a program P'(h,p) = if H(eval(p(h,p))) then endless_loop else halt; And then look at P'([H],[P']), where [_] is the description of the program inside the brackets.
13:08:23 <int-e> and eval is the interpreter, and the p(h,p) inside there is actually a kind of substitution.
13:08:54 <int-e> H is assumed to exist, so you know its description.
13:09:12 <mroman> so you pass the halting program to P'
13:09:40 <int-e> P' knows what H is. P' doesn't know what P is, but it will be told what P' is and can then reconstruct P from P' and H.
13:10:06 <int-e> Small h is a parameter that will be replaced by [H].
13:10:39 <mroman> but this again assumes that you can actually call H within P.
13:10:40 <int-e> But actually the h [H] part isn't needed
13:11:09 <int-e> I could define P'(p) = if H(eval(p(p))) then loop else halt.
13:11:20 <int-e> The trick is to then consider P'([P']).
13:12:58 <mroman> that makes no sense either
13:13:04 <mroman> you're missing a parameter then.
13:13:29 <int-e> (the p(p) inside is still cheating with notation, it's an operation that takes p to be a description of a program P(x) with a single parameter, and replaces x by a description of the value p, syntactically.)
13:14:08 <int-e> so the result is a description of a program that behaves like P(p).
13:14:50 <int-e> ... which will end up being P'([P']), I'm afraid I'm not explaining this very well.
13:15:24 <mroman> I assume that there's a program H that can determine whether P halts or not but P doesn't know H.
13:15:27 <int-e> But anyway, in rthe if H(P) then loop else halt, H is never the problem.
13:15:37 <mroman> and P can't communicate with H (H being a seperate program)
13:15:45 <mroman> P is essentially I/O-free.
13:16:06 <int-e> But anyway, in "if H(P) then loop else halt", H is never the problem. It's the reference of P to itself which you need to escape.
13:16:13 <mroman> H takes the source code of P (or some representation of P)
13:16:31 <mroman> but for practical reason I'll refer to that as source code of P :D
13:16:54 <mroman> so P can't call H unless P contains H
13:17:07 <int-e> mroman: btw this isn't anything unusual. The trick here is essentially the same as that for writing quines.
13:17:09 <mroman> which means P would have to know what Hlooks like.
13:17:37 <int-e> Rather than having P store its full source code, it stores about half of it, and reconstructs the full source code from that.
13:17:56 <mroman> well it's certainly possible to feed yourself to print
13:18:00 <int-e> The half that is being stored is [P'].
13:18:14 <mroman> but you can only feed yourself to H if you know what H is
13:18:17 <mroman> because you have to include H
13:18:22 <int-e> Yes, you do include H
13:19:01 <int-e> I'm not sure why you think that including H is problematic.
13:19:23 <mroman> because this makes the assumption that H actually exists.
13:19:45 <int-e> You assume that H exists, then you make a program that H cannot decide the halting problem for.
13:20:16 <mroman> Yes, but I assume that an external H exists
13:20:22 <int-e> So the assumption is wrong. End of story.
13:20:24 <mroman> but I don't know whether P can actually construt H itself.
13:20:53 <mroman> maybe H is infinitely large
13:20:57 <mroman> but will terminate in a finite number of steps
13:21:26 <mroman> which would make it really hard for P to construct H
13:21:54 <mroman> because if P is infinitely large you can't really include it in P
13:22:02 <mroman> unless you can reduce it to a finitely large representation
13:22:39 <mroman> so to be able to use this as a proof
13:22:44 <mroman> I'd have to proof first that P can include H.
13:22:54 <mroman> because if that is impossible to begin with
13:23:06 <mroman> I can't make arguments based on the assumption that P can include H and then call H
13:23:22 <int-e> But you /can/ make a description of H a parameter of P, which I mostly did when I wrote (almost) "P'(h,p) = if eval(h(p(h,p))) then loop else halt" By partial substitution you can make P(h) = if eval(h(P'(h,[P'])) then halt alse loop", so that's a program for which, H cannot decide termination of P([H]).
13:23:43 <int-e> But that's really proving more than the halting problem entails.
13:24:08 <mroman> I'm also assuming P is parameterless
13:24:09 <int-e> if "H is infinitely large" then it's not a Turing machine.
13:24:12 <mroman> because paremeters are basically I/O
13:24:16 <int-e> You cannot disprove the existence of oracles.
13:24:26 <mroman> but turing machines have infinite memory?
13:24:59 <mroman> so I could fit an infinitely large program in there and then my turing machine interprets that program
13:24:59 <int-e> every TM configuration is finite
13:26:16 <mroman> so the initial state of a TM is finite
13:26:35 <mroman> or at least has a finite representation
13:26:46 <mroman> (arguably in BF the inital state is an infinite amount of zeroes)
13:26:52 <mroman> (that's not really a finite initial state then)
13:29:25 <mroman> and quines aren't exactly turing machines either?
13:29:52 <mroman> the proof is essentially that for a turing machine T(x) = y an input i exists such that T(i) = i
13:30:03 <mroman> meaning that T has a fix point.
13:30:21 <mroman> or specifically that it has at least one fixed point.
13:30:47 <int-e> yeah the common trick here is called "diagonalization".
13:31:10 <mroman> so if P contains both itself and H
13:31:15 <mroman> it must be a fixed point as well?
13:31:51 <mroman> it must be a program that contains its own halting program
13:32:50 <mroman> but it can only do that if H exists.
13:32:55 <mroman> if H doesn't exist then it can't contain H
13:33:01 <mroman> and that's what I struggle with
13:33:07 <mroman> It sounds like an impossible circular argument.
13:34:16 <int-e> The program doesn't contain itself, just a description of something that behaves like itself.
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13:36:04 <int-e> > text$ap(++)show"> text$ap(++)show"
13:36:06 <lambdabot> > text$ap(++)show"> text$ap(++)show"
13:37:33 <mroman> Assume a halting program H exists that can answer whether P halts or not (P being a SPECIFIC program).
13:37:59 <mroman> For the argument `P = if H(P) then loop() else halt` to work P needs to contain itself and it needs to contain its halting program (in whatever form)
13:38:01 <int-e> (the "> text$ap(++)show" isn't even the program itself; it's missing a constant. the ap(++)show does the substitution (degenerated; it appends the string to the partial program); that is the description of the program itself. And for the halting problem, you'd pass something like that to H.)
13:39:09 <mroman> the output of H for every other program other than P is nonsense
13:39:31 <mroman> essentially, H isn't defined on programs other than P
13:39:42 <mroman> (I think in english this is called the domain of H)
13:40:02 <int-e> For any specific program P, one of the two TMs that always reject or always accept will decide the halting problem for P.
13:40:56 <mroman> I'm trying to understand if for every P an H exists that answers whether P halts or not
13:41:25 <int-e> The halting problem is the problem of finding a program H such that for any program P, H accepts [P] if and only if P halts.
13:42:44 <int-e> mroman: I just answered that question. Yes, but not in any interesting way, because unless we already know whether P terminates of not, we don't know which of the two candidates for H is the right one.
13:43:50 <mroman> but how would P know then which H to include?
13:44:19 <int-e> However, I was under the impression that we were discussing the halting problem. Now that I've figured out that we're not doing that I'm no longer interested.
13:44:47 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53643&oldid=53639 * B jonas * (-26)
13:45:06 <int-e> I don't even understand what the question is anymore.
13:45:27 <mroman> I accept the proof for the halting problem based on the assumption that P can communicate with H over some form of I/O.
13:45:40 <mroman> I don't think the proof holds if P can't do that.
13:46:36 <mroman> because this way P doesn't need to know what H actually is.
13:46:39 <mroman> P can treat H as a black box.
13:46:42 <int-e> Well you're wrong. And I think you have a wrong statement of the halting problem in mind. I don't know what that statement is.
13:48:19 <mroman> if P can't communicate with H it could only do that if P contains a copy of H but if P contains a copy of H it inherently needs to know what H actually is.
13:48:44 <mroman> but since your proof essentially says that H can't exist
13:48:57 <mroman> and that's what I take is what the proof is saying
13:49:01 <int-e> It's a proof by contradiction.
13:49:12 <mroman> P can't possible ever embed H to begin with
13:49:22 <mroman> making the argument based on the assumption that P can actually embed H invalid.
13:49:41 <int-e> (Actually it's not, it's negation introduction, so even intuitionistically you should not have any complaints.)
13:49:42 <mroman> H doesn't exist if and only if P can embed H.
13:50:02 <mroman> but if P can embed H, then H must exist.
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13:50:25 <int-e> Suppose H exists. Then there would be a program P such that H gets termination of P wrong. Hence H doesn't exist.
13:51:39 <mroman> Essentially I'm saying the program you construct to proof the non-existence can itself not exist.
13:52:10 <mroman> You're given a program P.
13:52:22 <int-e> All the programs "P" in that proof are necessarily hypothetical, though they can be obtained by making a description of H a parameter of P. But whatever you ultimately pass to H in order to obtain a contradiction will contain H or a description of H.
13:52:51 <mroman> for the P that was given to you you write a program that answers whether P halts or not (without prior knowledge about whether P halts or not)
13:52:52 <int-e> mroman: If you fix P you're discussing something entirely different from the halting problem.
13:53:24 * APic just thought of a nice Project
13:53:33 <APic> A figlet/toilet Reverser
13:53:40 <APic> That decomposes Text on IRC or similar
13:53:53 <int-e> banner is traditional :P
13:54:01 <APic> With Font-Auto-Detection
13:54:04 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53644&oldid=53634 * B jonas * (+1) /* External resources */
13:54:04 <APic> Yes, banner too
13:54:40 <APic> One could hack some OCR-Software to convert Letters back to Pixels
13:55:30 <APic> Or just render the Font and then use a stock OCR
13:55:51 <APic> So quite simple, not _that_ interesting Project 😉
13:56:04 <mroman> int-e: yeah I guess I need to reformulate that properly
13:56:15 <mroman> so knowledged people actually know what I'm talking about :D
13:56:22 <int-e> APic: or just start feeding parameters and strings of increasing length to $program
13:56:58 <int-e> (you'll need some lenience because of kerning and the like, but it seems to me that this stupid approach should be good enough anyway)
13:57:17 <APic> int-e: lol, good Brute-Force-Idea
13:58:36 <int-e> in fact guessing the right font may well be the hardest part for this reversal
14:02:51 <mroman> int-e: http://codepad.org/uKMXVOaJ
14:02:56 <mroman> those are the two cases I was talking about.
14:04:44 <int-e> mroman: it doesn't. Q is entirely hypothetical, based on the assumption that H exists.
14:05:19 <mroman> but if Q doesn't exist
14:05:25 <mroman> how can you construct it to proof that H doesn't exist?
14:06:10 <int-e> mroman: This is like the largest prime. If 2 = p_1 < p_2 < ... < p_n is a complete list of primes, then p_1*...*p_n+1 is not divisible by any (other) prime, hence must be prime as well, a contradiction. So there is no such complete list of primes.
14:06:26 <mroman> yes, that's a traditional proof by contradiction
14:06:32 <mroman> like sqrt(2) being not a rational number.
14:06:44 <mroman> but those are entirely different.
14:06:47 <int-e> And then it turns out that in most cases, p_1*...*p_n+1 for a prefix of the list of primes is not actually prime but divisible by some other prime...
14:07:47 <int-e> e.g., 2*3*5*7*11*13+1 = 59*509
14:08:55 <int-e> despite the fact that under the hypothesis that 2,3,5,7,11,13 contains all primes, it would be prime. Ex falso quod libet.
14:09:19 * int-e should stay away from latin.
14:09:35 <int-e> http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095804354
14:12:01 <int-e> mroman: and for part 1), the trouble is that by the law of excluded middle, P either terminates (and then H exists), or P doesn't terminate (and H exists). So classically, H exists. Constructively, you're back in halting problem territory, because without further information on P, you need a /uniform/ construction for H that works for all possible P.
14:13:59 <int-e> (Such a construction can be performed by a Turing Machine, and the result can be evaluated using a universal TM (vulgo interpreter))
14:15:08 <int-e> I'll readily admit that this is all rather subtle and full of pitfalls. I can't even promise that I'm avoiding all of them successfully, but I'm trying. :)
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14:32:19 <HackEgo> nuntcoin blintercoin obstocoin coborcoin micrcoin lndcoin crabicoin sholdcoin eldcoin brycoin mirecoin redchcoin trainccoin omercoin codecoin mdccoin djousioncoin q-balcoin surfcoin osseacoin
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14:37:52 <variable> [05:54:40] <APic>One could hack some OCR-Software to convert Letters back to Pixels
14:38:21 <variable> https://twitter.com/reverseocr
14:39:27 <int-e> variable: maybe I shouldn't laugh. undoing this kind of OCR could be quite tricky: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ocr.png
14:39:30 <variable> int-e: what happens if I take your derivative. Do you become 'e'? or int-int-e? or something else ?
14:39:36 <int-e> (original above, OCR below)
14:40:02 <int-e> variable: Sorry, but I'm discrete.
14:41:41 <int-e> variable: nice feed, though not quite as tautological as I expected.
14:42:16 <HackEgo> #esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font
14:42:36 <variable> my IRC client displays images inline
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16:57:42 <zzo38> Would it possible to improve the OCR by cropping pictures of each individual letter and then specifying what letters they are, and see if that improve them?
17:00:43 <Slereah_> If you know what letter they are why do you need to OCR them
17:01:10 <zzo38> To avoid having to retype the entire document, so that you only have to retype a part of it.
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21:35:16 <oerjan> . o O ( that halting problem discussion was painful to read )
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23:12:26 <int-e> oerjan: did I get it horribly wrong?
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23:45:52 <oerjan> int-e: well i don't think your explanation was precise enough to get past the horrible miscommunication barrier at a reasonable speed.
23:46:10 <oerjan> it may not have been fundamentally wrong.
23:48:25 <oerjan> i suppose this may have some of the same flavor as those arguments people have over cantor's theorem for real numbers...
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01:12:53 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA. the eagle is in the nest. the porcupine is in the lair. the turtle is moving. the beer is on its way.
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02:18:38 <HackEgo> 1/2:thwackamacallit//A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole. \ hthmonoid//hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ... \ bfjoust//bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric. \ for further details for futher details.//See `? for further details for futher details. \ me//Me is a prou
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06:21:22 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53645&oldid=45668 * Quintopia * (+2004) implemented
06:23:36 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb/ntmw.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53646 * Quintopia * (+4423) Created page with " from collections import defaultdict import heapq import random import os import sys from time import sleep def load_file(filename): with open(filename) as f:..."
06:26:39 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53647&oldid=53645 * Quintopia * (-19) Improve parallelism
06:28:07 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53648&oldid=53647 * Quintopia * (-25) ...well, actually it's textual now, though it doesn't have to always be.
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07:01:16 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb/ntmw.py]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53649&oldid=53646 * Quintopia * (-196) I forgot that Python code doesn't have to be verbose and hard to parse.
07:06:12 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb/ntmw.py]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53650&oldid=53649 * Quintopia * (-160) ...and also has ways to avoid creating a billion dummy variables
07:11:24 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb/ntmw.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53651&oldid=53650 * Quintopia * (-27) It bothers me to repeat myself like that.
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10:08:47 <esowiki> [[Not The Main Worb/ntmw.py]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53652&oldid=53651 * Quintopia * (+6) Allow empty space on the right
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13:27:01 <b_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/1932/
13:31:31 <b_jonas> it's funny how in windows cmd, if your pwd is "d:\foo" and you want to change it to "D:\foo", then "cd/d D:\foo" won't work, but changing to a different directory and back like "cd/d D:\ & cd/d D:\foo" will work.
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14:14:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Antoxyde * New user account
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14:19:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53653&oldid=53594 * Antoxyde * (+111)
14:20:31 <esowiki> [[++brainfuck++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53654&oldid=47126 * Antoxyde * (+1)
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14:54:17 <esowiki> [[++brainfuck++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53655&oldid=53654 * Fizzie * (-2) Categories, copyedit, convert spurious HTML to more wiki-stic markup.
14:54:46 <fizzie> (No idea why I bothered.)
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17:45:30 <Slereah_> your name is an anagram for T-bean
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17:48:41 <fizzie> It's also an anagram for "neat B". Nothing is ever a coincidence, they say.
17:49:55 <Taneb> It's actually a portmanteau of two anagrams
17:50:19 <int-e> Tea beans were developed under a secret British government program in an attempt to replace coffee.
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21:57:39 <Taneb> What do people think of this implementation of natural numbers I did for fun?
21:57:39 <Taneb> https://arin.ga/E4il0U
21:59:51 <Taneb> (this is in Haskell)
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00:08:01 <int-e> Taneb: fun, so why does... https://arin.ga/uEVn6I ... terminate?
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11:51:54 <int-e> Yay, there's a new generic source for malware in Germany, bealocalhost.de.
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12:09:54 <int-e> sdfgsdfg23: it resolves to 127.0.0.1 :P
12:11:43 <int-e> Which is a mild curiosity by itself. It gets interesting when you learn that "bea" is short for "besonderes Anwaltspostfach", an electronic mailbox for lawyers that's supposed to become mandatory in January.
12:12:41 <int-e> So why do they have that domain? Apparently, part of their client is a web service that runs locally. Which is something that browsers don't really like; you'll get lots of warnings. So they registered this domain.
12:13:54 <int-e> And then it gets embarrassing because browsers warn when you're not using SSL. So there's an SSL certificate for that domain. And the private key is shipped with the client. And... surprise!... somebody revoked the certificate on the 21st or 22nd of December :)
12:15:28 <Taneb> int-e, I can't really prove that it terminates, but the recursive calls to pred and succ in the definition of succ are always to much smaller numbers
12:16:50 <int-e> Taneb: Yes, I also believe that it terminates. However, I tried some automatic tools and they failed, and I don't have a complete paper proof either.
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13:13:43 * FireFly . o O ( be a localhost. yes, you too can now be a localhost! )
13:15:50 <int-e> FireFly: Yes, I liked that reading as well.
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13:25:28 <int-e> sdfgsdfg23: I think you're overgeneralizing.
13:26:04 <ais523> int-e: that "certificate for 127.0.0.1" thing is, unfortunately, not the stupidest use of certificates I'm aware of
13:26:07 <ais523> although it's up there
13:26:48 <int-e> ais523: it is really stupid when you use the same certificate everywhere and then it gets revoked :P
13:27:36 <ais523> is "the private key became public" a sufficient reason for a CA to revoke unilaterally?
13:27:43 <ais523> or do they need permission from the key's owner?
13:27:58 <ais523> come to think of it, the private key might be enough on its own to create a revocation request
13:28:02 <int-e> And there really isn't a good fix. (What they are trying to do, by the looks of it, is to get all the lawyers install a custom CA certificate, which, presumably, will then be used to sign the individual bealocalhost.de certificates. There's no way that this can end well.)
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13:30:26 <ais523> [13:29] <ais523> now I'm wondering if 127.0.0.1 is inherently secure or if there's some way to inject packets to look like they come from there
13:30:27 <ais523> [13:29] <ais523> I think it's possible to send an IP packet with a forged source address, isn't it? just it tends not to be useful because you won't get a reply
13:32:07 <int-e> well, properly configured routers and network stacks will not accept/forward such packages.
13:33:06 <ais523> yes, if the address claims to be 127.0.0.1 most routers will be more than a little sceptical
13:33:07 <int-e> But I believe that there's no guarantee that a packet with a forged 127.0.0.1 "from" address makes it to another host.
13:33:21 <int-e> ...I'm missing a negation.
13:33:29 <ais523> "huh, that packet's saying I sent it, that seems a little surprising"
13:38:01 <int-e> Yes, I think best practices say that you shouldn't accept such packets.
13:39:09 <\oren\_> what is the quality of music that makes it sound christmasy?
13:39:20 <\oren\_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8IWkC7tT44
13:41:37 * int-e eyes \oren\_ suspiciously and doesn't click.
13:52:36 <sdfgsdfg23> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeWsxeG44U
14:03:43 <\oren\_> int-e: it's music from a game I've been playing, Xmas Shooting : Scramble!
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14:43:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: as far as I see, the localhost trick works like this. win32 doesn't have sane AF_LOCAL sockets for some reason, so either you write a non-portable program that uses crazy win32-specific IPC and will never work on windows, or you write unsafe shit that uses localhost and will be secure only as long as there's only one user on your computer.
14:43:53 <wob_jonas> So now we got a lot of lazy programs that use localhost tcp communications and assume they're secure, despite that in most of them, any other user on the host can just make them misbehave.
14:44:14 <wob_jonas> Even on windows, it's sort of the easiest way to do IPC, which is why even non-portable programs do that.
14:44:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: why would that need an SSL certificate, though?
14:44:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: to pacify browsers when there's a combination with an external site involved, I'd guess
14:45:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's even worse with browsers because when you view local pages, the browser just has to assume it's all secure, and can't distinguish between different things you download and view locally
14:47:48 <ais523> wob_jonas: I mean, browsers don't use AF_LOCAL sockets either
14:47:57 <wob_jonas> no wait, the local files aren't relevant
14:48:03 <wob_jonas> you're saying the certificate is for localhost
14:48:27 <wob_jonas> then I guess it's a webpage served as a combination between localhost and some remote host
14:48:43 <wob_jonas> with some local program acting as a http server involved
14:48:49 <wob_jonas> and the browser wants the combination to be all https
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16:52:57 <wob_jonas> debian now has vanilla ffmpeg, not just their avconv clone? nice
16:53:10 <wob_jonas> it's good to say these sorts of forks getting smoothed out
16:53:57 <wob_jonas> about the only other time this has happened was with eglibc, a fork that's ended now that they fixed their disputes with glibc and made one glibc that does what everyone wants
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17:48:58 <esowiki> [[Decimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53656&oldid=52035 * MD XF * (+724)
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18:54:19 <zzo38> I have a book from library that mentions outguess stuff. They mention multiple choice test, and it seem maybe the people who design the test could use a computer to help to make it harder to guess.
18:54:44 <zzo38> They also mention falsified financial data; it also seem like you could write a computer program to help you to cheat at it.
18:56:54 <zzo38> They also mention Shannon's outguessing machine, and that he was the only person who could win. And then they described how we win, which is what I expected; he was able to carry out the program mentally, to know how the machine is working.
18:58:44 <zzo38> And in many of cases being mentioned, using dice might also be of some help.
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18:59:43 <zzo38> (Unless the government sells biased dice in order to more easily spy on people, but then the people can easily expose them doing so.)
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22:12:28 <oerjan> <\oren\_> what is the quality of music that makes it sound christmasy? <-- not being japanese is a start hth
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22:36:12 <oerjan> . o O ( the trout is out there )
22:36:42 <Taneb> ( no-one things this way ) O o .
22:37:10 <oerjan> Taneb: maybe japanese do
22:37:55 <Taneb> In other news I finished the first chapter of the HoTT book just now
22:38:12 <Taneb> I'll find some paper and start the exercises tomorrow!
22:38:37 <trout> https://homotopytypetheory.org/book/
22:38:43 <Taneb> Yeah, that is the one!
22:38:59 <Taneb> I got myself a physical copy (because paper is so nice)
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22:43:47 <fizzie> I wonder how many book authors think about the abbreviating (and making sure they don't accidentally conflict with an existing book) when it comes to choosing the title.
22:46:11 <Taneb> Like my upcoming book, These Ants on Chess Pieces
22:48:09 <Taneb> (note: this is not actually a book I am writing or will be writing)
22:59:48 <fizzie> Taneb: Is it just macro lens photos of ants on chess pieces?
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23:15:31 <fizzie> The smoke just came out of my amplifier. :/
23:15:48 <fizzie> There was a flash, a bang, and orange flames.
23:15:57 <fizzie> And a thin wisp of smoke.
23:16:27 <fizzie> Sad occasion. I liked that thing.
23:18:10 <shachaf> That smoke is sealed in there pretty well, but fire usually gets it out
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04:47:57 <zzo38> GURPS has "alternative abilities" where you can switch between them, because there are different modes of one thing. I saw once also mention of "alternating abilities", where they must be used in order, and then after the last one is used, the first one becomes available again. Someone said it is silly, but I think it can be interesting if the costs, time to use, and other requirements are significant!
04:48:01 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this?
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09:09:39 <Taneb> Does the infinite sum of x/(2^x) converge?
09:16:51 <Taneb> Actually, I care about (x/2)/(2^x) but I think if one converges then so will the other
09:18:22 <Taneb> I think they converge at 1 and 0.5 respectively but don't know how to prove it
09:18:51 <Taneb> 2 and 1, not 1 and 0.5
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10:22:16 <ais523> Taneb: x/(2^x) obviously converges because past a certain point, each element of the sequence is smaller than 1/(1.5^x) (exponential beats linear)
10:22:28 <ais523> although that sort of argument doesn't tell you what number it converges at
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10:46:37 <int-e> Taneb: for the former, you can show that sum[i=0 to n] i/2^i = 2 - (n+2)/2^n
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10:51:03 <int-e> there's also the cute idea of rewriting sum[i=0 to inf] i/2^i = sum[i=0 to inf] sum[j=1 to i] 1/2^i as sum[j=1 to inf] sum[i=j to inf] 1/2^i = sum[j=1 to inf] 2/2^j = 2.
10:52:21 <Taneb> int-e, that's pretty neat
10:53:54 <int-e> And then there's generating functions: x/(1-x)^2 = x(1/(1-x))' = x(1+x+x^2+...+x^i+...)' = x(1 + 2x + 3x^2 + ... + ix^(i-1)) = x + 2x^2 + ... + ix^i + ..., and x/(1-x)^2 =2 for x = 1/2.
10:54:23 <int-e> (I should probably reverse those equations...)
10:56:19 <int-e> And I should perhaps note that I'm building on top of the knowledge that the series is (absolutely) convergent, which justifies reordering terms, and replacing 1+x+x^2+... by 1/(1-x).
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15:24:18 * boily is older today! ^^
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15:24:51 <mroman> Suppose there's a program H1 that can answer whether a program P stops.
15:25:09 <mroman> Then suppose there exists a program Q = IF H1(Q) THEN loop(); ELSE stop();
15:25:19 <mroman> Thus H1 would get the answer wrong for Q
15:26:00 <mroman> Thus we know that H1 gets the answer incorrect for Q
15:26:32 <mroman> Assume that H1 will answer with "YES" for Q
15:26:51 <mroman> This allows us to construt an H2(P) = IF P = Q THEN "NO" ELSE H1(P)
15:26:59 <mroman> which would get the answer correct for Q
15:28:07 <mroman> or similar if H1 answers with "NO"
15:29:40 <mroman> in the "NO" case we could even tell this because then Q actually stops in a finite amount of time
15:30:55 <mroman> if Q exists we can create an H2 that will detect Q and answer correspondingly or else invoke H1
15:31:38 <mroman> you could construct a Q2 = IF H2(Q) THEN loop(); ELSE STOP();
15:31:50 <mroman> at which point you can create an H3 that detects this case as well
15:32:20 <mroman> but you can do this more generically
15:32:45 <mroman> for any Hx it can detect whether it is invoked during execution of the program
15:33:06 <mroman> thus you don't need H1, H2, H3, H4... but only an Hx for the generic case.
15:33:14 <oerjan> boily: happy birthday!
15:33:42 <mroman> thus this Hx should get the answer correct for all Qx
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15:35:02 <mroman> which would mean that the existence of a Q does not mean that no such H can exist.
15:35:31 <mroman> which makes me even more convinced that the halting problem does not exist.
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15:36:23 <mroman> besides what I've already mentioned that proving H can't exist also proves Q can't exist which means that neither H can exist nor can a program exist that would break H
15:37:06 <alercah> first, how do you compare programs for equality?
15:37:13 <alercah> second, and more importantly, programs are finite
15:37:24 <alercah> your hypothetical Hx is infinite; you can't just take the limit and say it exists
15:37:29 <oerjan> mroman: the source code of Q is a function of the source code of H. didn't you get this explained the other day?
15:39:17 <oerjan> the point is, there is indeed no Q that works to disprove all Hs, but for every H there is a Q that disproves it.
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15:41:59 <mroman> compare programs? Reduce them to some normal form I guess.
15:42:22 <mroman> which we can do if the program stops in a finite amount of time
15:42:55 <mroman> or compare source codes
15:43:00 <mroman> or whatever representation you have for programs
15:43:13 <alercah> and comparing representation works, but there are infinitely many possible representations of equivalent programs
15:43:29 <alercah> I guess that doesn't make things any worse
15:43:35 <alercah> because your Hx still needs to be infinite anyway
15:44:06 <mroman> if two LC terms are semantically the same they'd evaluate to the same final form eventually
15:44:18 <mroman> otherwise you'd have a non-deterministic eval
15:44:21 <oerjan> mroman: not if neither halts
15:44:32 <alercah> and we definitely can't assume that they halt here
15:44:59 <alercah> you're comparing programs to Q, which may not halt
15:46:09 <alercah> also even in LC, you can have two programs which halt on all inputs and give the same results on all inputs
15:46:13 <alercah> but don't reduce to the same normal form
15:46:16 <mroman> well then you'd have to proof first that there's a program R that is semantically identical to Q but which can't be reduced to Q in a finite amount of time.
15:46:20 <alercah> because you need the input in order to reduce them
15:46:41 <alercah> you can't compare programs by semantics
15:46:44 <mroman> as in proof that Q is not unique under reduction
15:46:51 <mroman> or whatever that is called in CS terms.
15:47:08 <alercah> in order for your argument to be valid, you need a proof that Q *is* unique under reduction
15:47:47 <mroman> there might be a R = IF H(P) == !true THEN ...
15:47:57 <mroman> but that R would be reducable to Q in a finite amount of time
15:48:13 <alercah> actually wait consider this
15:48:45 <alercah> R(P) = if (some condition on P) then Q(P) else Q(P)
15:48:50 <alercah> until you provide an input P
15:49:10 <alercah> all these programs have inputs
15:49:21 <alercah> they don't have meaning without inputs
15:51:34 <mroman> the input is known before H is invoked
15:51:40 <mroman> since H only takes a program
15:51:44 <mroman> not a program PLUS input
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15:51:54 <alercah> that's not how it's usually specified
15:52:05 <alercah> the halting problem is to determine if a given program halts *on a given input*
15:52:08 <mroman> but I don't care about the I/O case.
15:52:26 <mroman> I want the non I/O case :)
15:52:35 <mroman> passing parameters counts as I/O
15:52:44 <alercah> you're thinking at too high a level here
15:53:13 <mroman> H can only somehow measure if P stops or not.
15:53:29 <mroman> without communicating with P in any other way
15:53:32 <alercah> you can look at the input as a program+input combination
15:53:35 <mroman> H doesn't even get the output of P
15:53:40 <alercah> and then you "don't have I/O"
15:53:46 <alercah> turing machines don't have output
15:53:54 <oerjan> it's not actually a big difference if you disallow I/O there, it can be hardcoded.
15:53:57 <alercah> again, you're thinking at too high a level
15:54:06 <alercah> I/O is not a concept in turing machines
15:54:21 <ais523> there are modified Turing Machine definitions that do have I/O
15:54:23 <ais523> normally using a separate tape
15:54:30 <ais523> but the original definition doesn't
15:54:41 <mroman> I accept the halting problem in the I/O case.
15:54:49 <alercah> mroman: there is no "I/O case" though
15:55:29 <mroman> Q = IF H(P) ... is inherently an I/O bound action.
15:55:42 <mroman> because it calls a foreign program that is not within Q
15:55:50 <alercah> that's not how turing machines work
15:56:35 <oerjan> mroman: i told you, the source code of Q contains the source code of H.
15:57:48 <mroman> but then Q = IF H(Q) doesn't work
15:57:59 <mroman> because you're only passing Q
15:58:04 <oerjan> of course it does, you use a quining technique.
15:58:18 <mroman> which isn't mentioned in the proof anywhere
15:58:35 <alercah> H is a machine which takes an encoded representation of a Turing machine, right?
15:58:42 <alercah> like, the input to H is source code
15:58:44 <oerjan> mroman: you may have read a bad version of the proof.
15:58:50 <mroman> you just assume that you can embed H like that.
15:59:06 <alercah> mroman: the fact that you can embed H like that is well established
15:59:13 <alercah> turing machines are universal
15:59:18 <oerjan> of course, i cannot say clearly that i've read it, i just consider it obvious since i _do_ know how to write a quine.
15:59:29 <mroman> I know how to write a quine too.
15:59:48 <mroman> (\x.xx)(\x.xx) being the most obvious one
15:59:53 <alercah> mroman: so the way it works from a technical point of view is
16:00:29 <alercah> H is a turing machine whose input is a description of turing machine
16:00:46 <alercah> the description doesn't need to be specified specifically, because we're trying to prove H doesn't exist
16:01:07 <alercah> so we can assume that there is some way to go from (Turing Machines) -> (input format for H)
16:01:43 <alercah> Q embeds H as a subroutine
16:01:58 <alercah> (it's not too hard to show how to do this, though I can explain it more if you need)
16:02:25 <alercah> so now we apply our mapping to Q, and we get Q in the input format to H
16:02:34 <alercah> which in turn passes it on to H
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16:05:46 <mroman> I mean you could have a turing machine with a Quine operator right?
16:05:54 <mroman> that shouldn't violate the laws of turing machines.
16:06:09 <oerjan> presumably. but they can already do quines so why bothere
16:06:24 <mroman> so you could write a program IF H(myself) THEN loop(); else halt();
16:06:39 <mroman> where myself is a builtin that is replaced with the source code of the program itself.
16:07:24 <mroman> then to be more specific... the program would look like `H(p) := ....; Main := IF H(myself) THEN loop(); ELSE halt();`
16:08:18 <oerjan> it's officially christmas in norway, time to open the first nutella ball...
16:08:19 <alercah> Not quite, a program can't quine itself
16:08:29 <alercah> because it doesn't have a copy of its source code
16:08:41 <alercah> at least not in the general case
16:08:54 <alercah> quines operate at a meta level
16:08:57 <ais523> oerjan: what day is it celebrated? and what time does it start? I assume if it's officially Christmas now, it has been for several hours
16:09:07 <ais523> today is Christmas Eve in the UK and insanely busy in all the shops as a consequences
16:09:37 <ais523> hmm, maybe I should write a better BuzzFizz interp so that I can look into whether it can write a quine
16:09:44 <ais523> I'd be surprised if it couldn't, but it seems really painful
16:10:03 <oerjan> ais523: 17 on Dec 24 is when the church bells start ringing
16:10:32 <ais523> that is an oddly specific Christmas tradition
16:10:48 <ais523> here it starts at midnight between 24 and 25 in theory, or mid-September in practice :-P
16:10:50 <mroman> well you could have some a regular computer with infinite memory where the program sits in memory itself so it can surely access itself
16:10:58 <mroman> although the TM would technically be that computer than
16:11:00 <alercah> mroman: sure, but that's not a turing machine
16:11:21 <mroman> but it's equivalent to turing machines?
16:11:49 <mroman> or it's at least as good as a turing machine
16:11:53 <alercah> equivalent in computational power, but I guess the equivalent for a real computer
16:12:04 <alercah> would be like trying to have the processor output a copy of its own circuitry
16:12:22 <ais523> most processors can do that just fine, especially as they don't need to output the data defining that circuitry too
16:12:32 <mroman> but theoretically a turing machine could produce a representation of itself somehow?
16:12:36 <alercah> ais523: how would they do that without access to a copy of the schematic?
16:13:00 <alercah> mroman: Any such machine would either have to be specifically designed to do so, or take enough information to do so in the input, or some mix of the two
16:13:08 <ais523> I'm assuming they have memory, even if it's just cache
16:13:10 <alercah> like, a machine which just adds two numbers together couldn't
16:13:14 <ais523> for a more direct example, see https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/100114
16:13:16 <alercah> because it just adds numbers together
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16:13:32 <ais523> oh, you're talking about "not all programs are quines" rather than "some programs are quines"
16:14:25 <mroman> all normal forms are basically quines.
16:14:45 <alercah> you're confusing two things there
16:15:08 <alercah> I mean, I guess if you define the output of a computation to be normal form, then yes
16:15:15 <mroman> \x.y evaluates to \x.y
16:15:45 <alercah> the original definition of turing machine has no output other than ACCEPT/REJECT though
16:15:48 <mroman> don't remember what it was caled
16:15:49 <alercah> so quines are impossible under that definition
16:16:00 <ais523> alercah: it could leave a description of itself on the tape
16:16:17 <oerjan> ais523: there's a radio program playing sounds from church bells all over the country at this time (and also church choirs)
16:16:23 <alercah> but that does require a slightly different definition
16:16:33 <oerjan> and the shops close a couple hours earlier at least.
16:16:34 <ais523> incidentally, I'm upset that nobody else took up the challenge to create a circuit that output a specification of itself, it was a really interesting idea
16:16:52 <ais523> oerjan: over here most shops close at 9pm on Christmas Eve
16:17:03 <ais523> apparently, even if it's a Sunday (which means that they end up opening /longer/ than they normally would…)
16:17:28 <mroman> The one liner proof is if H exists with said properties then a Q = IF H(Q) THEN loop(); else halt(); exists thus no H can exist with such properties.
16:17:45 <mroman> and this one is really easy to understand.
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16:18:39 <ais523> a normal form program is basically a literal-only program
16:18:45 <ais523> those normally aren't considered quines
16:18:46 <mroman> similarily if you had two programs A and B that can each answer correctly for a subset of programs
16:18:49 <lambdabot> <no location info>: error: not an expression: ‘’
16:18:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘`’
16:18:58 <mroman> you could combine A and B into a new program
16:19:06 <ais523> "1" is not normally considered a quine in ghci
16:19:14 <ais523> because it's just a literal that's printed literally
16:19:16 <alercah> mroman: you can do that, yeah
16:19:18 <ais523> but it meets some definitions
16:19:28 <alercah> mroman: there are definitely subsets of programs for which it can be answered
16:20:14 <mroman> but you'd have to make some assumption
16:20:30 <mroman> such as saying that if A can't decide it loops forever and if B can't decide then B loops forever
16:21:15 <mroman> thus you can create a C(P) = PAR { A(P) ; B(P); }
16:21:41 <mroman> which evaluates A and B in parallel and since either A or B eventually terminates C terminates
16:21:52 <alercah> or if neither can decide, then C doesn't terminate
16:21:53 <mroman> but then you could create D = IF C(P) THEN loop() ELSE halt()
16:22:15 <mroman> and C(D) would be wrong
16:22:33 <mroman> so we know that no finite amount of programs combined can answer correctly for every P
16:22:40 <mroman> (in a finite amount of time)
16:22:47 <alercah> you mean bounded, not finite
16:23:02 <alercah> got it backwards because I'm tired
16:23:06 <mroman> I don't know what you mean by bounded vs finite
16:23:15 <alercah> ok good pretend I didn't say the stupid thing and move on then
16:23:44 <mroman> oh. bounded is used for quantities
16:24:23 <alercah> in this context bounded usually means there's a single upper bound, so like "there is a number X such that the problem can always be decided in less than X time"
16:24:38 <alercah> vs "the problem is always decided in finite time, but may take arbitrarily long"
16:24:47 <mroman> but that still leaves one unanswered question
16:24:53 <mroman> since neither C nor D can exist
16:24:58 <mroman> what do we do with that?
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16:25:41 <alercah> you think that's bad, how about the algorithms that we know exist but that we can't prove them correct
16:27:13 <mroman> suppose A exists but if A exists a B must exist but the existence of B means A can't exist thus A does not exist but since A does not exist neither does B exist so neither A nor B actually exist.
16:27:43 <oerjan> ais523: in norway sundays in december can have longer opening hours by law, but not today.
16:27:45 <mroman> which for the halting problem would mean that there doesn't exist a program where H would answer incorrectly.
16:27:59 <mroman> because the existence of that program is bound to the existence of H.
16:28:03 <mroman> and we know H doesn't exist.
16:28:51 <mroman> which sounds more like the halting problem is undecidable
16:28:55 <alercah> I mean, notwithstanding that you're not quite right about A and B
16:28:55 <mroman> rather than saying it exists.
16:29:01 <alercah> that's just how proof by contradiction works
16:29:13 <alercah> you take one impossibility, and build on it
16:29:24 <alercah> many of the intermediate constructions you make will be equally impossible
16:29:32 <alercah> because they rely on the first impossibility
16:29:32 <mroman> like the proof for the irationality of sqrt(2) is a proof by contradiction right?
16:29:47 <mroman> but sqrt(2) actually exists.
16:29:50 <mroman> that's totally different.
16:30:05 <alercah> ok, fine, proofs of non-existence by contradiction
16:30:13 <alercah> which is not what the proof about sqrt(2) is
16:30:31 <mroman> it'd be like saying H exists
16:30:32 <alercah> try, say, the proof that there are no functions continuous at all rational points but discontinuous at all irrational ones
16:30:38 <mroman> but it doesn't have a property you say it have
16:30:55 <mroman> H(x) is a program, suppose H(x) had the property that it answers correctly for all P
16:31:06 <mroman> you could then proof that H can't have that property
16:31:16 <alercah> that's another, equally valid way
16:31:19 <mroman> because Q = IF H(Q) THEN ... would break that property
16:31:28 <mroman> but this means that H actually exists.
16:31:41 <alercah> you could prove that there is no number x for which x is rational and x^2 = 2
16:33:08 <mroman> which would leave the question what property that H has then.
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16:34:28 <mroman> you could say P is the set of all programs
16:34:40 <mroman> and H is the property of a program to answer the correctly whether some other program halts.
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16:35:03 <mroman> well.. P is the set of all programs that take another program as input and answer with a yes or no
16:35:41 <mroman> you could then show that no program in that set has the property H.
16:37:02 <mroman> they just don't have the property H
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16:37:20 <alercah> it's just a question of how you define existence
16:37:21 <mroman> I'd accept that as a valid proof.
16:37:39 <mroman> because it avoids the circular argument.
16:37:56 <mroman> you can't embed a program that doesn't exist
16:38:05 <alercah> but you're assuming it does
16:38:20 <mroman> I'm assuming H(P) exists
16:38:36 <alercah> a consequence of that assumption is that you can construct Q
16:38:38 <mroman> which allows me to define Q=IF H(Q) THEN loop(); else halt();
16:38:49 <mroman> but I can only construct Q if H exists.
16:38:54 <mroman> because if H doesn't exist
16:38:55 <alercah> but you assumed thta it does
16:39:01 <alercah> if H doesn't exist, you don't need Q
16:39:05 <alercah> because you're already done the proof
16:39:05 <mroman> so the chain of proof is
16:39:29 <mroman> if H exists then Q exists and the existence OF Q proofs that H doesn't exist.
16:39:35 <mroman> but this invalidates my assumption that Q exists
16:39:41 <mroman> and if Q doesn't exist
16:39:42 <alercah> Q existing is not an assumption
16:39:45 <mroman> I can't proof that H doesn't exist.
16:40:02 <mroman> because to prove that H doesn't exist I need that Q to exist.
16:40:13 <alercah> Q existing is a consequence of H existing
16:40:21 <alercah> you have made only one assumption
16:40:50 <mroman> The existence of Q proves that H exists.
16:41:05 <alercah> yes, but that's only valid in the logical context
16:41:09 <alercah> which is of an assumption that H exists
16:41:42 <alercah> there's no need for Q to exist if H doesn't exist
16:41:59 <mroman> I can't accept such kind of proofs.
16:42:26 <mroman> exists H => exists Q => not exists H.
16:42:43 <mroman> since I now know H does not exist.
16:42:57 <alercah> you proved that "if H exists, Q exists"
16:43:01 <mroman> I have false => exists Q => not exists H.
16:43:14 <mroman> and false => X is not a valid proof.
16:43:57 <alercah> (A => B) is true if either A is false OR B is true
16:44:23 <alercah> so (H exists => Q exists) is true even if H doesn't exist
16:44:52 <mroman> but we know Q can't exist because Q embeds H.
16:45:11 <alercah> we don't need Q to exist on its own
16:45:20 <alercah> we only need it to exist if H exists
16:45:24 <mroman> wrong => true statement is technically true
16:45:32 <mroman> but a true statement can't follow from a wrong statement.
16:45:51 <alercah> so if we were trying to prove Q exists that would be a problem
16:45:57 <alercah> fortunately we're trying to prove it doesn't exist
16:46:10 <mroman> no, you're trying to prove H doesn't exist
16:46:31 <mroman> and your proof only works if Q exists.
16:46:39 <mroman> because you're using Q as a counter example
16:47:38 <alercah> you mentioned the proof that sqrt(2) is irrational, right?
16:47:55 <alercah> the first line is "suppose sqrt(2) is rational, then there exist a and b in lowest terms such that a/b = sqrt(2)"
16:48:31 <mroman> the combination of a/b = sqrt(2) doesn't exist
16:49:02 <mroman> you assume that a are natural numbers
16:49:20 <alercah> I'm asserting that some numbers with some properties exist
16:49:27 <alercah> saying they exist without those properties is meaningless
16:49:38 <alercah> and just pointless philosophizing over the definition of "exist"
16:50:11 <mroman> you just can't find a combination of two natural numbers a and b such that a/b = sqrt(2)
16:50:17 <alercah> sure, but the pair (a, b) such that a/b is in lowest terms and equal to sqrt(2) does not exist
16:50:33 <alercah> you're just trying to draw some arbitrary definition of mathematical objects that do exist, and ones that don't
16:50:35 <mroman> any pair of two natural numbers exist
16:50:43 <alercah> as oerjan said, you could also look at Q as a function
16:50:52 <mroman> they just don't have the property that a/b = sqrt(2)
16:50:58 <alercah> in that case, Q absolutely exists
16:51:51 <mroman> sqrt(2) is not member of the set N
16:52:16 <alercah> like I said, this is pointless philosophizing with no logical meaning
16:52:35 <alercah> the logical steps are perfectly well defined
16:52:48 <mroman> H can't be a member of the sets of all turing machine-ish programs
16:52:54 <alercah> you're trying to lift Q's existence outside the hypothetical "H exists"
16:53:01 <alercah> which is logically invalid, and correctly so
16:53:09 <alercah> but you're complaining that this means it can't exist in the hypothetical
16:53:36 <mroman> let's call the set of all turing machines T
16:53:44 <mroman> then H is not member of that set.
16:54:05 <mroman> that follows from the halting problem proof.
16:54:25 <mroman> but Q is member of that set.
16:55:01 <mroman> so Q itself isn't a set of T
16:55:10 <mroman> so you can't use the existence of Q to proof anything
16:55:13 <mroman> because it's not even within T
16:55:21 <mroman> but the question is whether H can answer it correctly for members of T
16:55:24 <mroman> but if Q isn't member of T
16:55:30 <mroman> then Q isn't a counter example.
16:56:00 <mroman> but Q can only be in T if H is in T
16:56:09 <mroman> that follows from the definition of H.
16:56:10 <alercah> so it's a logically valid step
16:58:26 <alercah> I think you're getting hung up on "existence" here
16:58:36 <alercah> because the logical step of picking a and b in the proof of sqrt(2) is no different
16:58:43 <alercah> it's a step which is only logically valid if the statement is false
16:58:47 <alercah> that's how proof by contradiction works
16:58:57 <mroman> I don't think it's the existence per se but the fact that a proof should be valid if up update it with new information.
16:59:10 <alercah> but then the sqrt(2) proof is equally invalid
16:59:21 <alercah> because once we prove that sqrt(2) is irrational
16:59:26 <mroman> suppose sqrt(2) is a member of Q
16:59:27 <alercah> we know that the step of picking a and b was invalid
16:59:48 <mroman> then there would exist an a,b both member of N such that sqrt(2) = a/b.
17:00:02 <alercah> if we include the fact that sqrt(2) is positive
17:00:06 <alercah> otherwise they could be negative
17:00:33 <mroman> more specifically, you cand find a pair of a,b with the property of a/b = sqrt(2)
17:01:14 <mroman> yada yada so we know for that to be true both a and b would have to be even numbers.
17:01:30 <alercah> yeah you can leave out hte details
17:02:43 <mroman> I skipped one assumption tho
17:02:49 <mroman> that a and b don't have common factors
17:03:05 <alercah> yeah, that's fine, I'm familiar with the proof
17:03:22 <mroman> we assumed that we can find a pair a,b with no common factors such that a/b = sqrt(2)
17:03:33 <alercah> we assumed that sqrt(2) \in Q
17:03:48 <mroman> since both a and b have to be even if a/b = sqrt(2)
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17:05:24 <mroman> so this is a contradiction
17:05:47 <mroman> thus we know there's no such pair of a,b as we assumed
17:06:50 <mroman> now we know that a and b must have at least a common factor of 2
17:08:27 <oerjan> mroman: hm i think i have a hunch where you're getting hung up, and the sqrt(2) proof is just simple enough to avoid it. but what about the proof of the infinitude of primes?
17:09:55 <mroman> maybe we can find a,b with common factors such that a/b = sqrt(2)
17:09:58 <oerjan> it seems to have the same H => P => no such H thing
17:10:32 <oerjan> (well, perhaps i should wait to see if you _are_ hung up on sqrt(2) first)
17:11:04 <mroman> so we divide by two repeat
17:11:11 <mroman> but you'll always end up with the same thing.
17:11:44 * oerjan had some washing to do
17:12:03 <mroman> so we know that if a/b = sqrt(2) then both a and b can endlessly be divided by two.
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17:13:53 <mroman> so sqtr(2) = x*2^infinity
17:17:52 <mroman> because you can't do that within Q
17:18:26 <mroman> you mean there's no largest prime?
17:19:17 <zzo38> Is there a quick algorithm to figure out both the squarefree core of a number as well as the square root of the rest, at the same time?
17:19:59 <mroman> Assume there's a number with the property of being prime such that you can not find a number larger than that also having the property of being prime.
17:20:49 <mroman> assume p = p1*p2*p3*p4*p5*...*pn has this property
17:21:54 <mroman> (otherwise it wouldn't be prime)
17:22:36 <mroman> then q = p1*p2*p3*p4*p5*...*pn*p+1 would also be prime
17:22:42 <mroman> thus p doesn't have the property
17:23:12 <mroman> which now we go back as well
17:23:27 <mroman> we know that p doesn't have the property
17:23:31 <mroman> but we know that p is prime
17:24:18 <mroman> p doesn't need to have the property for the proof to work
17:24:18 <mroman> p doesn't need to have the property for the proof to work
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17:25:52 <mroman> so the fact that p doesn't have the property doesn't invalidate the fact that q is a larger prime than p
17:26:13 <mroman> so q disproves that p has the property.
17:26:21 <mroman> which is logically consistent.
17:26:32 <Taneb> Help my scrollback is full of proof and I do not know what is going on (I missed the beginning)
17:27:19 <oerjan> mroman: i wanted to explain it in a different way, to highlight the similarity.
17:27:30 <mroman> Taneb: I reject the halting problem proof on the grounds that you assume and H exists and then create a counter example Q = IF H(Q) THEN loop(); ELSE halt(); to prove that H does not exist.
17:27:36 <oerjan> assume there are finitely many primes, let H be the list of all of them.
17:27:51 <mroman> but if you come back with this new knowledge of H not existing you'll find that Q (your counter example) can't exist as well
17:27:58 <mroman> thus your counter example doesn't exist
17:27:59 <mroman> thus your proof sucks :D
17:28:21 <oerjan> now if H exists, then let Q be the product of all the numbers in H.
17:28:40 <oerjan> continue as you did. from the existence of Q we deduce that H cannot exist.
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17:29:08 <oerjan> now you have the exact same structure as for the point you disagree with in the halting problem.
17:29:16 <Taneb> mroman, so... proof by contradiction?
17:31:36 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't think you can find the squarefree core of a number without prime factorization
17:31:56 <mroman> Taneb: I'm fine with proofs by contradiction.
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17:34:27 <oerjan> Taneb: he's having trouble with proofs of the form H exists => Q exists, Q exists => H doesn't exist, ergo H doesn't exist
17:34:54 <oerjan> so i'm trying to show a different one, but i think i chose a bad time.
17:34:59 <Taneb> I think I'll sit this one out
17:36:06 <mroman> Taneb: The reason is because your proof gives you new knowledge and if you update your proof with this new knowledge you'll find that Q can't exist and thus you don't have a counter example anymore.
17:36:20 <mroman> The counter example you used to proof the non-existence of H does itself not exist to begin with.
17:36:38 <mroman> counter examples inherently need to exist
17:36:45 <mroman> an argument based on a non-existing counter example is
17:36:47 <Taneb> mroman, what about a counterexample scheme
17:36:50 <mroman> I consider it non-sense
17:37:02 <Taneb> A function from example to counter-example
17:37:27 <oerjan> mroman: grmble. ok let's reformulate the original instead, i think it can be done.
17:37:38 <mroman> but you can reformulate the proof
17:37:52 <mroman> to show that no program in the sets of all programs can have the property of answering stuff correctly
17:38:36 <oerjan> let H be a program deciding _something_ about other programs. let Q = if H(Q) then loop(); else halt()
17:39:02 <mroman> as in. Let M be the set of all programs taking a program as input and answer yes or no then we can certainly show that no program in this set answers correctly for all programs.
17:40:04 <mroman> Meaning that no such program exists in the set of all programs.
17:40:19 <mroman> (no program that answer correctly for all programs)
17:41:06 <mroman> but the program itself exists
17:41:13 <mroman> it just doesn't have the property you assumed it does
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17:42:23 <Taneb> There isn't a fundamental difference between the two arguments here to me
17:42:28 <shachaf> int-e: I was going to tell you that SSR is 75% off but I forgot you already played it.
17:43:14 <int-e> Right. I'm stuck. The Witless is also available at a reasonable price.
17:43:43 <mroman> Taneb: not in the outcome.
17:43:44 <mroman> Let M be the set of all programs of the form A(B) = true/false For every program P in M we can construct a program Q = IF P(Q) THEN loop(); ELSE halt(); which would imply that P does not answer correctly for Q.
17:43:55 <mroman> but there's a slight difference here
17:44:00 <mroman> namely the fact that P exists
17:44:11 <mroman> which means we can use Q as a counter example
17:44:24 <Taneb> mroman, I think we have a difference in mathematical philosphy here
17:44:26 <mroman> thus making the proof logical.
17:45:52 <mroman> but this proof makes sense to me.
17:45:59 <shachaf> int-e: Any other good jams?
17:46:24 <mroman> but if my reformulation of the proof is correct
17:46:30 <mroman> then I can accept the halting problem to be true
17:47:05 <mroman> otherwise I have to continue looking :D
17:47:45 <Taneb> mroman, so... the form you don't like is (\exists x \in S => ¬ \exists x \in S) => ¬ \exists x \in S
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17:48:32 <Taneb> But the form you do like is \forall x \in T => (P(x) => ¬P(x)) => ¬P(x)
17:50:13 <mroman> \exists X \in S => \exists Y \in S => \not \exists X \in S <- I don't accept this.
17:50:41 <mroman> because the existence of Y \in S is tied to the existence of X \in S
17:50:46 <mroman> which you later proof to be wrong.
17:51:04 <Taneb> I am not sure where that Y is coming from here, the counter example for the halting problem is not in the set of halting oracles
17:51:07 <mroman> travelling in time shouldn't invalidet proofs.
17:51:20 <int-e> shachaf: I don't know. I finished The Night of the Rabbit today (which I started last year... I took a break which saved me using a walkthrough) which I liked quite a lot.
17:51:39 <mroman> well Q is a counter-example to H.
17:51:45 <int-e> But of course it's a point&click adventure, so completely different genre.
17:51:55 <Taneb> It's a witness that the existence of H is inconsistent
17:52:16 <mroman> Q = IF H <- see. H is contained within Q.
17:52:45 <Taneb> All proofs by contradiction do something like that, though
17:53:36 <mroman> Assume 9 is even. If 9 were even then sqrt(9) had to be even since 9 is a perfect square. sqrt(9) = 3 which is odd thus our assumption that 9 was even must be wrong thus 9 must be odd.
17:54:07 <shachaf> int-e: Did you jam Recursed?
17:54:18 <Taneb> You make a proof that 3 is even using a proof that 9 is even
17:54:25 <int-e> mroman: yes, so you've constructed an *even* square root of 9, which is something that doesn't really exist.
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17:54:35 <Taneb> But then use this to prove that 9 is odd, so the proof that 3 is even cannot exist
17:54:55 <mroman> I don't see the problem there.
17:55:26 <int-e> The only objection I have is that a proof of contradiction is not necessary in this case... never mind involving square roots.
17:55:27 <Taneb> I can't see why you're happy with that and unhappy with expressing Q in terms of H
17:55:55 <mroman> Taneb: because it's still consistent.
17:56:46 <mroman> my assumption that 9 is even turned to be wrong
17:56:51 <mroman> so now I know that 9 is odd.
17:57:06 <mroman> but no statement is invalidated in this proof by 9 being odd.
17:57:18 <mroman> nothing in that proof depends on 9 being odd.
17:57:19 <int-e> The Q constructed in the halting problem proof does exist for any given H as well; it just fails to halt if and only if it doesn't halt, because that property relies on the assumption on H.
17:57:25 <Taneb> I don't understand your argument here
17:57:38 <Taneb> I'm going to wander off
17:58:25 <int-e> This is quite analogous to the square root of 9. It exists, it equals 3, it just happens not to be even after all.
18:01:08 <mroman> Assue 9 is even. If 9 is even then 9+0 is even. Since 9+0 is even then <WHATEVER>.\
18:01:28 <mroman> now you somehow end up showing that 9 is not even.
18:01:41 <mroman> then <WHATEVER> isn't valid anymore.
18:02:29 <mroman> or if <WHATEVER> would show that 9 is odd.
18:02:33 <mroman> that just doesn't work logically.
18:02:51 <int-e> Anyway, I'm with Taneb here, I don't understand what your problem is.
18:04:02 <mroman> whatever you conclude from 9+0 is even
18:04:06 <mroman> is only valid if 9+0 is even
18:05:25 <int-e> shachaf: nay on recursed
18:05:46 <int-e> mroman: this is just basic logic
18:06:20 <shachaf> int-e: It's a cute game and also on sale
18:06:34 <shachaf> Starts off a bit slowly but there are some fun levels.
18:10:08 <mroman> int-e: yeah... but it's a big difference whether you say it doesn't exist or whether you say it doesn't have a certain property.
18:10:39 <mroman> you can certainly say that H doesn't have the property of answering correctly for all programs
18:10:43 <mroman> as it inevitably fails on Q.
18:11:47 <mroman> because if H exists then Q can exist and if Q can exist then Q shows that H doesn't have the right properties.
18:12:17 <mroman> thus your proof remains valid.
18:14:12 <mroman> because you can call/embed programs that exist.
18:20:33 <mroman> I'm just not accepting spooky exists proofs.
18:24:58 <int-e> shachaf: hmm, might be fun
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19:10:15 <mroman> the other question is whether the halting problem is only undecidable for programs that invoke H.
19:10:27 <mroman> and very decidable for programs that do not invoke H.
19:11:00 <mroman> if it were only undecidable for for programs invoking H
19:11:13 <Taneb> mroman, how do you determine if a program invokes H?
19:11:36 <mroman> if you can't tell if the program halts or not it would contain H.
19:11:52 <Taneb> I think "invokes H" is either ill-defined or itself undecidable (by Rice's theorem)
19:12:02 <mroman> if the assumption is correct that all undecidable programs invoke H.
19:12:40 <mroman> so far we just know that programs of the form IF H(myself) THEN ... are undecidable.
19:13:00 <mroman> so it might be that we can write an a program that answers _correctly_ with yes/no/undecidable
19:13:21 <mroman> is there a proof that shows that you can't do that either?
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19:13:52 <mroman> trivially as mentioned you can write an H2 that detects a specific Q and respond with undecidable
19:14:08 <mroman> so a program can surely for some instances tell whether the program halts, doesn't or whether it's undecidable.
19:14:23 <mroman> so in specific cases it's decidable whether it's undecidable :D
19:14:41 <mroman> the bigger question is whether it's decidable in the generic case.
19:15:54 <mroman> the actual question would be whether a program can detect that the termination of another program is dependent on itself.
19:16:18 <mroman> because if H can conclude that the termination of P depends on the output of H
19:16:26 <mroman> then it can answer with undecidable and would do so correctly.
19:17:07 <mroman> which means the sets of programs that halt and don't halt would be well defined
19:17:17 <mroman> and there would be a subset of programs that are undecidable
19:17:29 <mroman> because the outcome depends on H itself.
19:18:40 <mroman> trivially for IF H(myself) THEN loop(); ELSE halt(); you can conclude perfectly fine that the outcome depends on H
19:19:09 <Taneb> mroman, not if you don't have the program in that form
19:19:14 <Taneb> If H is inlined you're lost
19:19:30 <oerjan> <mroman> is there a proof that shows that you can't do that either? <-- yes, because any undecidable program doesn't halt, so you could trivially turn that program into one that decides halting itself.
19:20:00 <mroman> why do undecidable programs not halt?
19:20:22 <ais523> if it did it would be decidable
19:20:30 <ais523> simply run it until it halts, there's your proof it halts
19:20:46 <mroman> I mean undecidable as in it's decidable that it depends on H
19:21:01 <mroman> "This sentence is false".
19:21:17 <mroman> I _know_ that this sentence is neither true nor false within this boolean logic.
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19:22:11 <mroman> so I know that for IF H(Q) then loop(); else halt(); the outcome is depends on H
19:22:44 <mroman> so H could detect that the outcome depends on the answer it gave the first time
19:23:00 <mroman> I assume turing machines are as smart as humans
19:23:12 <mroman> humans can tell that this program is a "paradox"
19:24:12 <mroman> what if H runs the program Q
19:24:22 <mroman> deliberatily answering with a specific "yes" or "no"
19:24:26 <mroman> to cause it to either terminate or not
19:24:33 <mroman> then revising it's answer for the actual output of H.
19:24:58 <oerjan> mroman: ok i didn't interpret undecidable the same way you do. but like others i'm not sure whether your version is well-defined (although it might be an interesting concept if it is.)
19:26:00 <mroman> oerjan: I mean it as in could an H detect that the halting state of a program depends on H and then answer with a third answer.
19:26:32 <oerjan> the problem is that there's almost surely a way to hide H in a program such that H cannot detect it.
19:26:36 <mroman> which I guess boils down to H being able to detect itself in the program it's given?
19:27:21 <oerjan> for one thing, rice theorem says that it's undecidable whether a program is equivalent to H.
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19:29:37 <oerjan> it's like the halting theorem on steroids: you cannot decide _anything_ about a program that is preserved under equivalence.
19:30:49 <mroman> you could do statistical tests though.
19:31:06 <mroman> but that's uninteresting.
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19:31:49 <mroman> if we assume there's H1 and H2
19:31:58 <mroman> which are semantically identical
19:32:14 <mroman> they both answer yes/no/dependent
19:32:21 <mroman> (let's call it dependent instead of undecidable)
19:32:46 <mroman> then what happens if we feed Q = IF H2(Q) THEN loop(); ELSE halt(); to H1.
19:33:41 <mroman> H1 can detect it's own presence.
19:33:54 <mroman> inevatibly IF H2(Q) THEN loop(); ELSE halt(); gets fed through H2
19:33:58 <mroman> and H2 can detect it's own presence
19:34:04 <mroman> so H2 would detect itself in there?
19:34:36 <mroman> so if H1 would just eval this
19:34:44 <mroman> H2 would say dependent
19:35:07 <mroman> well actually we need switch-case now :D
19:35:24 <mroman> since a simple if is just true/false
19:36:01 <mroman> Q = CASE H2(Q) OF TRUE -> loop(); FALSE -> halt(); DEPENDENT -> .... END
19:36:28 <mroman> even if we feed hat to H2
19:36:36 <mroman> H2 is going to answer DEPENDENT
19:36:47 <mroman> so if we put DEPENDENT -> stops(); in there
19:36:54 <mroman> then DEPENDENT would be wrong.
19:37:20 <mroman> thus H2 would get that wrong.
19:39:35 <int-e> I'd say you're overthinking this. You seem to be constantly amazed by the fact that *under a false assumption*, you can prove both a statement and its negation, but in fact this is true for any statement at all.
19:40:42 <mroman> but you could loosen it
19:40:52 <mroman> and say H2 just answers whether it's dependent on itself.
19:41:08 <mroman> so the program might terminate but H2 will answer dependent
19:41:28 <mroman> so dependent would just mean "dependent on myself".
19:42:58 <ais523> int-e: not in all forms of logic
19:43:17 <ais523> some people in my department have put a lot of effort into logics where (x and not x) does not imply y
19:47:18 <int-e> ais523: please let's not go there
19:48:04 <ais523> int-e: my thesis was heavily based round forms of logic where (x and not x) is a syntax error
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19:48:34 <int-e> I know that there's work on paraconsistent logics and for the time being I'm pretty happy to keep my knowledge of such logics on that level.
19:48:37 <ais523> so I have some experience with weird logics generally
19:58:28 <HackEgo> paraconsistent? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:59:09 <oerjan> `le/rn paraconsistent//There has been a lot of work on paraconsistent logics, although there hasn't been a lot of work on them.
19:59:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'paraconsistent': There has been a lot of work on paraconsistent logics, although there hasn't been a lot of work on them.
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20:20:05 <mroman> nothing follows from a contradiction.
20:20:48 <mroman> (x => y) y might be true if it's independent from x
20:21:12 <mroman> 9 is even => there are an infinite number of primes
20:21:35 <mroman> it's true that there are an infinite number of primes
20:21:52 <mroman> but it's wrong to follow that from the assumption that 9 is even.
20:23:07 <Taneb> 9 is even => 7 is even
20:25:00 <mroman> if X exists then Y exists.
20:25:09 <mroman> If X doesn't exist you've just proven that Y doesn't exist.
20:25:22 <mroman> That's an acceptable conclusion.
20:25:35 <mroman> if X exists then Y exists. If Y exists then Z exists.
20:25:49 <mroman> If X doesn't exist then Z doesn't exist.
20:25:54 <mroman> That's an invalid conclusion.
20:26:06 <mroman> Z might exist independently
20:26:22 <mroman> if X exists then Y exists. If Y exists then Z exists. If Z exists then X doesn't exist.
20:27:13 <mroman> Z only exists if and only if Y exists and Y only exists if and only if X exist. They might exist independently of course, but you'd have to prove that independently.
20:27:54 <mroman> Since X doesn't exist if Z exists but Z exists if X exists
20:28:39 <mroman> That just can't possibly work.
20:29:24 <mroman> it can work if it follows directly
20:31:03 <mroman> if a > b then c > d if c > d then a < b
20:31:48 <mroman> but if a < b then you don't know whether c > d thus you can't know whether a < b
20:32:27 <mroman> you can only show that a < b if you know for certain that c > d
20:32:39 <mroman> because c > d is only valid if a > b
20:33:13 <mroman> you know nothing about whether a > b or a < b
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20:39:40 <int-e> shachaf: so apparently, the recursion achievement is unlocked by unlocking the recursion achievement. that's good to know.
20:44:34 <oerjan> int-e: sounds obvious in hindsight
20:46:46 <mroman> yeah this sounds wrong.
20:46:50 <mroman> i need a better example.
20:47:31 <mroman> the argument doesn't work there.
20:47:45 <mroman> it certainly allows you to conclude that a > b can't be true.
20:50:37 <mroman> if <some thing> were true then there would exist <another thing> showing !<some thing>
20:50:40 <shachaf> Not the corecursion achievement?
20:50:43 <mroman> thus <some thing> isn't true.
20:51:21 <mroman> if <some thing> exists then there would exist <yet another thing> showing <some thing> does not exist.
20:52:04 <mroman> this is the same thing.
20:53:00 <APic> But in any Case, whether anything would exist or not, there still would be the pointed Brackets
20:53:06 <APic> Metadata > Data
20:53:51 <mroman> because the word exists makes my brain jump to physical things
20:54:01 <mroman> and it's hard to convince your brain about hypothetical physical things that do not exist
20:54:19 <APic> Brains are physical, but Spirit is not necessarily
20:54:39 <APic> Also, You have an infinite Number of Heads
20:55:33 <mroman> the existence of H would prove its own inexistence.
20:55:49 <APic> This is proven in Robert Anton Wilson's „Quantum Psychology“
20:56:13 <APic> But i got two different Instances of the Book, and both disappeared
20:56:33 <APic> Then last Year i tried to order one additional Copy as a Gift for my Sister
20:56:39 <APic> It did not arrive
20:56:52 <APic> So maybe we actually all have zero Heads ☺
20:57:55 <APic> https://xkcd.com/1782/
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21:09:34 <mroman> it's still better than slack.
21:10:14 <mroman> you can't be in multiple teams in the same tab in slack
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21:16:28 <oerjan> <APic> But i got two different Instances of the Book, and both disappeared <-- that sounds like a non-unitary evolution to me, are you sure it's quantum?
21:22:34 <int-e> oerjan: it was a way of telling shachaf that I've obtained a copy of "Recursed".
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21:44:00 <oerjan> . o O ( curses, foiled again )
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22:32:13 <shachaf> int-e: Did you get the achievement?
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00:30:52 <\oren\_> shachaf: how is environmental station alpha? I haven't played it yet
00:39:20 <oerjan> . o O ( you should wait until it's at least beta )
00:48:08 <esowiki> [[What the fuck is the Internet?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53657&oldid=53618 * JayCampbell * (+2563) Added language spec and hello world example
01:02:39 <shachaf> \oren\_: Seems to have some minor issues under WINE
01:02:55 <shachaf> Still probably playable? But I got annoyed and scrapped.
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06:43:41 <shachaf> @tell ais523 whoa whoa whoa, https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/unstable-mechanics-2017-11-13
06:43:47 <shachaf> I may be behind the times.
06:49:23 <pikhq> One thing to note: the contraptions are not silver-bordered cards.
06:50:33 <shachaf> I imagine they still aren't legal in any format, though, unless they're reprinted in another set?
06:50:59 <shachaf> I just heard about this new unset
06:51:29 <shachaf> Garbage Elemental seems like a good card.
06:51:33 <pikhq> There's no way to assemble a contraption in black-bordered Magic ATM, so even *if* you brought a contraption deck into a Vintage game you couldn't do anything with them.
06:53:03 <shachaf> Oh, the cards that assemble contraptions are still silver-bordered?
06:53:57 <pikhq> From an interview with Maro, the design of the contraptions and their mechanics are supposed to be something they at least *could* put into black-bordered Magic at some point.
06:54:47 <pikhq> So it's half a joke because Un-, and half a design experiment to see if people like playing with it.
06:55:44 <shachaf> I haven't looked at that many of the cards but this unset seems to have more of a real set feel than previous ones.
06:55:57 <shachaf> The mechanics seem plausible or nearly plausible
06:56:09 <shachaf> Maybe most of the old sets were that way too and I just know the extreme cases
06:56:59 <pikhq> This un- set was designed to be drafted by itself; previous sets were designed to only ever be drafted as a single pack added to a draft.
06:57:07 <pikhq> (and even the latter as an afterthought)
06:58:27 <pikhq> Some of the individual mechanics in this are a touch weird, still.
06:58:42 <pikhq> But on the whole I think it's more "normal" because it's supposed to be played all on its own.
07:01:23 <pikhq> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439497 Also, I love this card.
07:04:09 <pikhq> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439617 And this one's pretty normal mechanically, except it's apparently a god-damned headache to rewrite the comprehensive rules to allow for it.
07:04:52 <shachaf> I thought that mechanic was already printed once?
07:05:25 <pikhq> Maro *tried* to print it in Future Sight.
07:05:34 <shachaf> Oh, right, it was only discussed.
07:06:40 <pikhq> Probably the biggest rules-headache mechanic in this, though, is deceptively simple.
07:06:46 <pikhq> You may have cards in hand that you do not own.
07:07:30 <pikhq> Yes. There's a card which lets you put target non-land permanent in *your* hand.
07:07:51 <pikhq> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439422
07:08:39 <pikhq> Though that is another card that does that thing, yes.
07:09:23 <pikhq> It sounds simple, but ow.
07:11:44 <pikhq> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439409
07:13:10 <pikhq> I'm glad that's only permanents.
07:13:22 <pikhq> It breaks things harder if it applies to spells and abilities.
07:18:16 <pikhq> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439486 I also like this one.
07:19:09 <pikhq> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439520 Also, Robo Rally the card.
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08:49:18 <shachaf> pikhq: Oh, there's http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&name=+[Very]+[Cryptic]+[Command] too
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08:49:51 <shachaf> https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/unstable-faqawaslfaqpaftidawabiajtbt-2017-12-06 makes more sense with that in mind
08:49:57 <shachaf> Maybe it's intentionally cryptic
08:58:43 <shachaf> Also the draw ruling for The Countdown is At One at https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/unstable-faqawaslfaqpaftidawabiajtbt-2017-12-06 doesn't make sense to me
08:58:51 <shachaf> Maybe they rewrote the card after writing that?
09:00:51 <shachaf> Ah, http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/167777120838/is-the-faq-correct-about-the-countdown-is-at-one
09:07:42 <shachaf> Oh, I guess they're doing it on purpose
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09:21:22 <shachaf> pikhq: oh man, http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439449
09:30:21 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53658&oldid=53567 * Wheatwizard * (+61) /* Interpreters */ Added BrainFlog interpreter to the list
09:35:03 <shachaf> Oh, and http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=439452
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10:16:12 <shachaf> Ugh, there are a bunch of these
10:28:02 <shachaf> pikhq: Oh boy, http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=X
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10:38:56 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 In https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/unstable-faqawaslfaqpaftidawabiajtbt-2017-12-06 , an interpretation is given to "destroy target player"
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10:39:31 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 ( 16.06.17:23:16:04 <zzo38> (It also says "destroy target player"; of course only permanents can be destroyed, not players.) )
10:40:46 <int-e> . o O ( suggesting that players are fleeting? )
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10:42:11 <shachaf> This new Unset is pretty good
10:42:16 <shachaf> I never heard about it until now
10:42:27 <ais523> wait, you've only just seen it? it's been out for a while
10:42:33 <ais523> there are some things there I'm dubious about
10:43:31 <shachaf> There are more interesting mechanics than "assemble a contraption", I think, though it's good to have a meaning for that
10:44:24 <shachaf> 16.06.26:18:46:07 <ais523> it probably doesn't work rules-grammatically, but the best design I've seen has "assemble a Contraption" mean "place a Contraption artifact token into play", and the cards that assemble contraptions have static abilities that grant abilities to contraptions
10:44:38 <shachaf> That was a pretty good guess
10:45:23 <shachaf> Oh, you've even talked about contraptions in this channel in November. I guess I wasn't looking.
10:45:31 <ais523> I'm actually upset with the way contraptions were done, because there doesn't seem to be any rules-mechanical reason for contraptions to be assembled /by/ a particular source
10:45:53 <shachaf> Yes, that's a bit strange.
10:46:03 <shachaf> Sometimes it says you assemble a contraption and sometimes it says a creature does it.
10:46:11 <ais523> and with the present design it'd be easy enough to make that work
10:46:27 <shachaf> But that could be different with future assemblers.
10:46:33 <ais523> I also strongly expected protection to protect a contraption from being assembled by a creature it had protection from, but that wouldn't work at all in the current ruels
10:47:05 <ais523> I also have a suspicion that unconstructed isn't very balanced
10:47:13 <ais523> even if you restrict it to just Unstable
10:47:17 <ais523> so it's probably a limited-only set
10:49:03 <ais523> apparently they errata'd the half-squirrel half-pony combo to not work, which was a) definitely needed but b) a sign that they didn't really test properly
10:49:49 <ais523> something like half the overly cheap instant win combos recently have involved infinitely blinking the same creature, so you think they'd have a check to catch repeatable blink effects /specifically/
10:51:56 <shachaf> I guess you can Summon the Pack and get an R&D's Secret Lair
10:52:44 <shachaf> I was surprised that they changed the Oracle text for Cheatyface.
10:53:06 <shachaf> Oh, they did it for all of Unhinged?
10:53:21 <shachaf> Now the cards refer to the battlefield and so on
10:53:59 <ais523> yes, they were really slow on that but they did it eventually
10:54:36 <ais523> they also errata'd R&D's Secret Lair as a joke, even though the errata wouldn't do anything (because IIRC it only works while the card's on the battlefield)
10:55:30 <shachaf> One of the Unstable cards lets you activate tap abilities in people's hands.
10:55:42 <shachaf> Well, only for that one specific card.
10:55:48 <ais523> there's no conceptual problem with that, just a logistical awkwardness
10:56:08 <ais523> the ninja card that can be in the hand and on the battlefield simultaneously is involved in a lot of "do weird thing X in zone Y" combos
10:56:31 <shachaf> "This mana is still added to your mana pool."
10:56:47 <shachaf> What is that even trying to change?
10:57:11 <ais523> which card's that on? Gatherer's down at the moment
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10:58:29 <ais523> what's the whole Oracle text?
10:59:04 <shachaf> "Play cards as written. Ignore all errata. Tap: Add Colorless to your mana pool. This mana is still added to your mana pool."
10:59:28 <ais523> oh, it's because you can't add {1} to your mana pool under modern rules, so it got errata'd to add {C}
10:59:40 <ais523> but if you ignore all errata, it'd go back to adding {1} which arguably doesn't work
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11:00:29 <shachaf> Oh, the rules don't allow that at all?
11:00:38 <shachaf> I guess that makes sense because all the Oracle texts were updated anyway.
11:01:12 <ais523> well, {1} simply isn't a type of mana, so what would it do?
11:01:25 <ais523> it's like trying to add {T} to your mana pool
11:01:31 <ais523> (which is totally something they should do in a future unset)
11:01:41 <shachaf> Right, it makes sense, I just hadn't thought about it.
11:02:08 <shachaf> If you add {T} and {Q} to your mana pool they can cancel out.
11:02:14 <shachaf> Do any uncards have negative mana?
11:23:48 <int-e> just add a {-} kind of mana that can't be held in the mana pool at the same time as any other mana
11:24:22 <int-e> but what's the point, they got rid of mana burn ages ago
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12:15:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53659&oldid=53642 * Ais523 * (-11) /* T */ +[[Tableaux]]
12:15:19 <esowiki> [[Tableaux]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53660 * Ais523 * (+17101) new language!
12:15:57 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53661&oldid=53630 * Ais523 * (+14) +[[Tableaux]]
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12:16:22 <ais523> I've been trying to pin down the details of that language for /ages/
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12:16:46 <ais523> there may well be bugs in the example programs because it's hard to reason about Tableaux and very hard to write an interpreter
12:17:03 <ais523> (well, impossible – it's uncomputable – but it should be possible to write an interpreter that works on many useful programs, just difficult)
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12:17:29 <ais523> in a way the language is closer to mathematics than most are, it's so high-level for a tarpit
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12:17:51 <ais523> "find a counterexample to the Erdős discrepancy problem" is not the sort of thing that can be easily expressed in brainfuck :-P
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12:48:35 <alercah> ais523: questions about tableaux: a) I think your "put it another way" confuses y and y' b) why is prefix-determinism not just saying that the tableaus are uniquely determined by the leftmost column, since it holds for all n?
12:51:55 <int-e> alercah: because the first element of the first column determines the whole first row
12:52:36 <int-e> alercah: which I found hard to understand in the formal definition (I didn't read it carefully enough), but it's kind of explained as part of the addition example
12:53:27 <alercah> then why is it expressed in terms of finite n
12:53:35 <alercah> rather than just saying that
12:53:52 <int-e> alercah: because it extends to arbitrary prefixes of the first column
12:54:25 <int-e> alercah: the values first n rows only depend on the first n entries of the first column, for any n. but that's basically how it's written
12:54:51 <int-e> who I scrambled that sentence a bit :)
12:58:00 <esowiki> [[Tableaux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53662&oldid=53660 * Int-e * (+27) clarify
12:58:12 <ais523> alercah: it's stronger than saying that it's uniquely determined by the leftmost column
12:58:25 <ais523> it means that the first n rows are uniquely determined by their leftmost column
12:58:31 <alercah> I thought you said first n columns
12:58:50 <int-e> alercah: I hope it's clearer now.
12:59:19 <int-e> (because, in fact, I read "its first column" to refer to the tableau's first column...)
12:59:54 <int-e> And then, indeed, the ''n'' becomes quite useless.
13:01:54 <esowiki> [[Tableaux]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53663&oldid=53662 * Int-e * (+1) add missing '
13:03:27 <int-e> (hmm, that message may be confusing because the effect is to change an y' into an y. In the source, they're ''y' and ''y''.)
13:09:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Weirdlang * New user account
13:10:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53664&oldid=53653 * Weirdlang * (+99)
13:12:38 <ais523> int-e: right, figured it out
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13:43:03 <ais523> shachaf: in terms of un-cards, there are some I really don't like, e.g. Ol' Buzzbark not only causes a huge number of problems both in terms of rules and practicalities, but is apparently brokenly powerful too
13:44:06 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53665 * Weirdlang * (+309) Created page with "'''APLWSI''' ('''A Programming Language With Smallest Interpreter''') - very simple programming language. Any program in this language is comments. APLWSI interpreter is empty..."
13:45:55 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53666&oldid=53174 * Weirdlang * (+73)
13:47:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:APLWSI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53667 * Ais523 * (+432) incompletely specified
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13:55:56 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international christmas for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
13:56:50 <oerjan> Merry Christmas to you latecomers
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14:00:32 <oerjan> hm only 7 nicks i know are bots, the channel is slipping. although a couple others look suspiciously botlike.
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14:02:10 <ais523> oerjan: did you see the new language I posted?
14:02:47 <ais523> it's an uncomputable tarpit, and incredibly powerful for a tarpit in terms of what programs you can write in it (this is probably related to the fact it's uncomputable)
14:02:50 <int-e> boily should revive metasepia
14:04:06 <ais523> I think the other bots got upset because people abused HackEgo for trivial things rather than esoprogramming
14:05:03 <ais523> anyway, my assessment of bots here: clog, esowiki, fungot, HackEgo, j-bot, lambdabot, zemhill_, so 7
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14:05:03 <fungot> ais523: just come up against the power switch, since there's so much more
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14:06:29 <ais523> oh well, fungot is right; we do have a lot more bots, we just have to turn them on
14:06:29 <fungot> ais523: that waz nice ( fin) it doesn't look like i did
14:15:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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14:20:29 <HackEgo> 645) <elliott> I'm not biased towards humanity over sentient .txt files. \ 1255) <int-e> fungot's irc is the uncanny semi-sentient style... where one can typically read half a sentence before noticing anything wrong <fungot> int-e: yes, i know
14:23:19 <int-e> ( which bot spams when I do this?
14:23:19 <idris-bot> 1 | which bot spams when I do this?
15:06:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53668&oldid=53664 * Oerjan * (+1) That
15:06:57 <oerjan> 's a pretty bad time to accidentally press enter
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15:07:11 <oerjan> oh well the edit was right
15:17:40 <oerjan> ais523: put differently, a tableaux is determined by a function that takes a list of y non-negative integers and an x, and returns a non-negative integer.
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15:18:20 <oerjan> modulo some off-by-one indexing errors
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15:32:07 <int-e> so N^+ x N -> N, hmm
15:44:00 <int-e> :t let tableau f cs x y = if x == 0 then cs !! y else f (take (y+1) cs) (x-1) in tableau
15:44:01 <lambdabot> (Eq t, Num t) => ([a] -> t -> a) -> [a] -> t -> Int -> a
15:45:12 <int-e> (idea: f defines the tableaux; cs is the first column)
15:51:58 <oerjan> cthulhu seems to always get the raw deal in irregular webcomic!.
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16:02:18 <pikhq> ais523: Humorously, the reason they didn't check for cheap instant win combos like that is *probably* pretty simple.
16:02:31 <pikhq> The set was completed in 2014 and shelved.
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16:50:08 <oerjan> argh my brain is _not_ ready to understand the tableaux examples.
16:56:26 <int-e> personally I'd turn the equation +[0, +[1,0]] = [0, 2+[1,0]] around, so that it becomes a recursive definition: tableau[0][x+2] = tableau[0][x+1]+1; note that tableau[0][1] is one of the inputs
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16:59:27 <int-e> but I guess addition isn't the real problem here...
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17:09:48 <int-e> oerjan: the @ are quite nasty, and the flow of information is evil as well
17:14:27 <ais523> <oerjan> ais523: put differently, a tableaux is determined by a function that takes a list of y non-negative integers and an x, and returns a non-negative integer. ← oh, I like that
17:19:43 <int-e> ais523: is there a [0, 2+[1,0]] = [1, +[2,1]]; missing in the multiplication part of the compositeness test?
17:20:13 <ais523> int-e: no, I had to move it out of the @1
17:20:18 <ais523> because it refers to a line /before/ the mutliplier
17:20:45 <ais523> it's the [2, 3+[0,1]] = [1, 2+[2,0]] on the line above
17:21:05 <ais523> perhaps we need a more readable syntax for function arguments
17:21:28 <ais523> e.g. allowing decrements as well as increments if they'd be cancelled out by implicit increments
17:21:45 <ais523> unfortunately, tarpits tend to not be that readable no matter what you do
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18:22:25 <oerjan> . o O ( a bit too much waxing and waning, here )
18:26:18 <int-e> boily: didn't you mention reviving metasepia a while ago?
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18:30:22 <boily> I did mention it, and it's been haunting me since...
18:30:35 <boily> probably going to rewrite it in rust or something.
18:54:11 <oerjan> `learn The porthellingularity will happen when boily starts making a porthello and cannot stop braiding in more and more words.
18:54:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'porthellingularity': The porthellingularity will happen when boily starts making a porthello and cannot stop braiding in more and more words.
18:55:36 <oerjan> no, that's way too short tdnh
18:55:36 <shachaf> anyway i made a punhello with no acknowledgement tdnh
18:56:03 <boily> I Will Usher In A New Age, The Harbinger Of Doom, The Mashing Of All Words Together.
18:56:11 <boily> I think “joyeaux”?
18:56:21 <boily> very subtle, much French.
18:57:54 <oerjan> i cannot acknowledge what i don't understand.
18:58:49 <boily> wait. “\\” works on strings?
18:59:04 <oerjan> also, there's not supposed to be an "a", i just (re)learned.
18:59:19 <oerjan> boily: strings are perfectly good lists hth
18:59:54 <shachaf> in my defense, correct french spelling is uncomputable
19:00:22 * oerjan gives shachaf a mercy swat -----###
19:00:38 <shachaf> i don't need your pity swats
19:01:27 <oerjan> shachaf: you were probably mislead by some confusing tableaux.
19:01:48 <oerjan> shachaf: thanks, that was the word i was looking for
19:02:40 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Eek" oerjan the shifty loud poet is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
19:03:12 <shachaf> `swran s/amortized/pity/;s/ he / we /
19:03:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swran: not found
19:03:13 <oerjan> also, it's no more uncomputable by english.
19:03:23 <shachaf> `swrjan s/amortized/pity/;s/ he / we /
19:03:24 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Eek" oerjan the shifty loud poet is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "pity" so we put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
19:03:38 <oerjan> pity to lose amortized
19:04:01 <boily> you're still an omnidryad. can you, like, teleport into all forests in the worlds?
19:04:15 <boily> alercah: how's life in your part of canadia?
19:04:25 <oerjan> boily: i haven't tried
19:04:46 <oerjan> don't i need, like, magic slippers or something
19:05:28 <oerjan> i think b_jonas's prepositions may be infectious
19:06:22 <boily> maybe a reindeer? or a mysterious slice of brunost?
19:07:37 <oerjan> i have nutella balls and coke zero
19:08:44 <oerjan> regarding reindeer, see today's xkcd hth
19:09:11 <shachaf> king fizzie and his reigndeer
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19:26:36 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky canary prime minister of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
19:27:06 <boily> `slwd fizzie//s/^/King /
19:27:07 <HackEgo> fizzie//King fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky canary prime minister of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
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21:41:33 <oerjan> `welcome herrdeutschland
21:41:34 <HackEgo> herrdeutschland: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:42:08 <ais523> all the little minor languages that nobody else uses
21:42:14 <ais523> mostly because they're completely insane
21:42:32 <ais523> Freenode has hundreds of channels for useful languages, the useless ones need one of their own :-)
21:43:05 <herrdeutschland> i m actually a face surgeon but as a hobby i program in python
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21:44:55 <ais523> I suspect they're having connection trouble
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21:45:13 <oerjan> let's not leap to conclusions
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21:45:47 <ais523> hmm, it strikes me that uncomputable languages say something really deep about maths
21:46:27 <herrdeutschland> any programming language is just about learning the basics of how 0 1 act
21:46:29 <ais523> if you have a Turing-computable language, you can just calculate it mechanically; that doesn't really prove anything and compiler quality doesn't really matter, you just get the correct output by following the algorithm
21:46:45 <oerjan> herrdeutschland: so is yours
21:47:04 <ais523> if you have an uncomputable language, you can't do that, so the more maths the implementation understands, the more programs it can handle
21:47:33 <herrdeutschland> well i learned batch programming once ,and as i learned it i discovered it s the same like dos commands but written in a code
21:48:05 <ais523> right, the vast majority of mainstream languages work in much the same way
21:48:10 <ais523> especially in terms of control flow
21:48:22 <ais523> hmm, does HackEgo know Prolog?
21:48:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gprolog: not found
21:48:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: prolog: not found
21:48:51 <ais523> there are some languages that work completely differently to the mainstream though
21:49:07 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%3F is my new favourite example
21:49:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swipl: not found
21:49:52 <ais523> not really, Python is a lot more explicit than English
21:50:07 <fizzie> SWI-Prolog is what my former university's Prolog course used.
21:50:15 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp/*pro*: No such file or directory
21:50:22 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp/*pl*: No such file or directory
21:50:25 <ais523> golfing languages are much closer to English because they leave a lot more implicit and are often a lot more context-sensitive
21:50:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
21:50:41 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp: No such file or directory
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21:50:48 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ibin/*pro*: No such file or directory
21:50:54 <oerjan> `` ls -d interps/*pro*
21:50:55 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interps/*pro*: No such file or directory
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21:51:11 <ais523> hmm, are interps and ibin actually just the same directory?
21:51:18 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 38 5000 0 4096 Oct 28 2016 interps
21:51:22 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jan 27 2017 ibin
21:51:45 <ais523> apparently not, I guess ibin is for the wrapper scripts and interps contains the core?
21:51:55 <ais523> (I'm basing this theory off link count)
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21:52:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ interp_stdin ./interps/kipple/cipple.bin
21:52:31 <fizzie> They're mostly like that.
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21:53:55 <ais523> kipple is basically just a readable syntax for a multiple-stack stack machine
21:54:01 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Kipple
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21:55:24 <ais523> hmm, several of the links there go to the old home of the Esoteric File Archive and thus no longer work
21:55:42 <ais523> and instead of fixing it I'm just going to complain on IRC in the hope that someone else does
21:56:24 <oerjan> shachaf is the expert on that
21:57:34 <esowiki> [[Kipple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53669&oldid=35437 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ Link to the github-hosted copy of the file archive.
21:57:35 <shachaf> Hey, I stopped doing it, didn't I?
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21:58:43 <oerjan> not really, hakatashi just stopped pinging out just as i had my finger on the button...
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21:59:42 <esowiki> [[Kipple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53670&oldid=53669 * Ais523 * (+7) /* Computational class */ fix the other external link to the Esoteric Files Archive, too
22:00:05 <ais523> I wonder at what point we're going to make a template like {{catseye}} for that
22:00:10 <oerjan> the problem is, i can never remember the correct syntax on the first try
22:00:13 <ais523> although that was a bit of a special case
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22:00:52 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
22:00:53 <fizzie> ais523: I could just go and fix everything returned from Special:LinkSearch for "http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files".
22:01:11 <fizzie> There's only 68 matches.
22:01:25 <oerjan> ais523: there was one case where i recently chose to link to wayback _instead_ of the github. namely your underload page
22:01:43 <oerjan> because the github doesn't render html or javascript
22:02:24 <fizzie> I think that's the exception, all these others are to directories or text-y files.
22:03:15 <fizzie> Well, there's one HTML file, the 1l spec.
22:03:52 <ais523> oerjan: isn't it ##fix_your_connection?
22:04:08 <oerjan> ais523: my first try was #fixyourconnection
22:04:20 <oerjan> it's one of the parts i can never get right on the first try
22:04:27 <oerjan> but this one didn't complain.
22:04:31 <ais523> and it's not even part of the syntax, technically :-P
22:04:44 <oerjan> the other thing is i forget the channel name.
22:04:58 <esowiki> [[2L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53671&oldid=31083 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:05:00 <oerjan> and i used to forget if it was -b or +b
22:05:27 <oerjan> is there a character missing in esowiki's output
22:05:29 <esowiki> [[ADJUST]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53672&oldid=36069 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:05:56 <esowiki> [[Archway]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53673&oldid=40415 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:06:34 <esowiki> [[Argh!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53674&oldid=43447 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:06:39 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
22:07:02 <esowiki> [[Aura]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53675&oldid=30361 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:08:06 <esowiki> [[Beatnik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53676&oldid=46219 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:08:24 <oerjan> shachaf: because i remembered the abbreviation hth
22:09:05 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53677&oldid=53318 * Fizzie * (+14) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:09:42 <esowiki> [[Beturing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53678&oldid=13148 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:10:21 <esowiki> [[BitChanger]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53679&oldid=7934 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:11:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53680&oldid=52846 * Fizzie * (+28) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:13:35 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53681&oldid=52196 * Fizzie * (+21) esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:15:06 <esowiki> [[Jannis Harder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53682&oldid=13216 * Fizzie * (+20) esoteric.voxelperfect.net github (and fix typo in link)
22:16:10 <esowiki> [[CHIQRSX9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53683&oldid=45210 * Fizzie * (+11) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:16:56 <esowiki> [[Foobar and Foobaz and Barbaz, oh my!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53684&oldid=40482 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:17:48 <esowiki> [[FukYorBrane]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53685&oldid=39369 * Fizzie * (+21) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:18:43 <esowiki> [[Glass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53686&oldid=53170 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:19:25 <esowiki> [[Glypho]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53687&oldid=47055 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:20:40 <esowiki> [[HighFive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53688&oldid=18211 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:21:17 <esowiki> [[Homespring]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53689&oldid=35165 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
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22:21:48 <esowiki> [[Hunter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53690&oldid=18166 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:22:24 <esowiki> [[Iag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53691&oldid=43714 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:23:04 <esowiki> [[Kayak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53692&oldid=33378 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:23:49 <esowiki> [[LNUSP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53693&oldid=17439 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:24:25 <esowiki> [[Muriel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53694&oldid=30815 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:25:00 <esowiki> [[Mycelium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53695&oldid=20074 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:25:34 <esowiki> [[Network Headache]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53696&oldid=30364 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:26:06 <esowiki> [[NULL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53697&oldid=50535 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:26:37 <esowiki> [[ORK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53698&oldid=46412 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:27:46 <esowiki> [[Prelude]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53699&oldid=50814 * Fizzie * (+14) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:28:24 <esowiki> [[PROLAN/M]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53700&oldid=30806 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:29:01 <esowiki> [[Qdeql]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53701&oldid=36067 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:29:33 <esowiki> [[Rhotor]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53702&oldid=38758 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:30:01 <esowiki> [[Sbeezg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53703&oldid=35552 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:30:36 <int-e> shachaf: whelp, I created a paradox
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22:30:59 <esowiki> [[Sceql]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53704&oldid=36070 * Fizzie * (+14) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:31:35 <esowiki> [[Smurf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53705&oldid=34328 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:32:16 <esowiki> [[SNUSP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53706&oldid=42815 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:32:49 <esowiki> [[Extensions to SNUSP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53707&oldid=30366 * Fizzie * (+14) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:33:04 <shachaf> I like the solution for... Well, I oughtn't spoil anything
22:33:27 <ais523> someone over at PPCG was wondering why SNUSP of all things had so many derivatives
22:34:06 <esowiki> [[Sortle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53708&oldid=40083 * Fizzie * (+28) esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
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22:34:22 <Taneb> ais523, I don't think I've ever seen SNUSP before
22:34:38 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53709&oldid=53367 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:34:40 <ais523> it's basically just BF with Befunge control flow
22:36:45 <ais523> hmm, now I'm really curious as to whether Rectangular SNUSP can square numbers in the 17..255 range to produce a number greater than 256
22:36:54 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53710&oldid=50439 * Fizzie * (-22) esoteric.voxelperfect.net github (plus fix intra-wiki link done as external)
22:37:31 <Taneb> ais523, Deadfish style?
22:37:34 <esowiki> [[Thutu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53711&oldid=35040 * Fizzie * (+8) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
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22:38:18 <esowiki> [[Wierd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53712&oldid=38706 * Fizzie * (+14) esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:38:50 <esowiki> [[ZOMBIE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53713&oldid=12686 * Fizzie * (+7) /* External resources */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
22:39:56 <esowiki> [[Gregor Richards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53714&oldid=30559 * Fizzie * (+7) esoteric.voxelperfect.net github
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22:41:02 <esowiki> [[Sortle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53715&oldid=53708 * Fizzie * (+7) /* Quine */ esoteric.voxelperfect.net github, missed one
22:41:20 <oerjan> . o O ( who needs spammers )
22:42:03 <fizzie> The remaining main namespace pages with links (1L_a and Gammaplex) have some to HTML files.
22:46:43 <int-e> shachaf: somewhere in the ruins
22:46:54 <int-e> shachaf: I wasn't trying to.
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05:54:13 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I know now there is card that says "destroy target player", and originally it was no meaning. I think the FAQ for Unstable says that now a player can also be destroyed not only permanents, and the effect of destroying a player is that that player loses the game.
05:57:16 <zzo38> (And that since a player can be destroyed, it can also potentially be regenerated, have indestructible, etc; such things would probably be useful only against this one effect.)
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06:14:55 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering cards
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07:49:31 <zzo38> Is it possible to implement Fermat's Last Theorem in Tableaux or not?
07:50:04 <zzo38> (without using Wiles's proof)
08:00:19 <zzo38> If you can solve halting problem then perhaps so, since, a program can take four natural numbers (a,b,c,n) and then check if (a+1)^(n+3)+(b+1)^(n+3)=(c+1)^(n+3) and if so then it halts; you can try all combinations by using Morton numbering or some other way.
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09:25:56 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT tzyyzlaf: augur puckipedia heroux Taneb Warrigal Hooloovo0 zemhill_ danieljabailey Vorpal ski FreeFull BooK_ hppavilion[1] LeoLambda Sgeo_ sdfgsdfg vertrex trn zzo38
09:26:01 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT rirguj: Hooloovo0 ^arcade_droid readability fnodeuser tromp brandonson zgrepc zemhill_ pelegreno newsham Sgeo_ Melvar sdfgsdfg b_jonas
09:26:06 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT nmjtwff: grumble Warrigal jix ocharles hppavilion[1] newsham MDude GeekDude contrapumpkin heroux pikhq brandonson readability ski LeoLambda trn augur wishstudio rodgort Lymia vertrex Fr
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09:26:11 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT mjzgeftcnb: Slereah_ hppavilion[1] danieljabailey garit puckipedia Melvar tromp dingbat Vorpal Sgeo_ trn
09:26:16 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ponqnms: BooK_ garit hppavilion[1] FreeFull Lymia Hooloovo0 quintopia wishstudio idris-bot puckipedia grumble vertrex pikhq M
09:26:21 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT hrwmhpr: heroux LeoLambda ski joast wishstudio contrapumpkin pelegreno hppavilion[1] GeekDude j
09:26:26 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT yxfxvfmsr: jix BooK_ rodgort pelegreno ^arcade_droid Taneb zgrepc joast GeekDude Melvar pdxleif fnodeuser MDude Roger9 danieljabailey grumble lynn sebbu zemhill_ her
09:26:31 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT xxsbrj: trn fungot ^arcade_droid sebbu sdfgsdfg grumble vertrex puckipedia hppavilion[1] zemhill_ Vorpal lynn Cale doesthiswork alercah garit Warrigal Hooloovo0 pikhq Slereah_ GeekDude
09:26:31 <fungot> raf314: i'll have to improvise 2
09:26:36 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ihntzq: Lymia Cale newsham ski tromp ocharles zgrepc quintopia xa0 joast pikhq readability alercah Slereah_ zemhill_ idris-bot jix ATMunn Roger9 pelegreno
09:26:41 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT labuscz: heroux zzo38 ^arcade_droid Vorpal sparr ATMunn Slereah_ Cale Taneb grumble MDude sebbu doesthiswork tromp
09:26:46 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT fbbgi: idris-bot xa0 trn fungot danieljabailey pelegreno sparr fnodeuser jix grumble quintopia Roger9 rodgort doesthiswork Sgeo_ Taneb ocharles Melvar zzo3
09:26:46 <fungot> raf314: i realized something important over the last couple of years ago.
09:26:51 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT pnwcdi: idris-bot sparr tromp pdxleif grumble newsham Sgeo_ pelegreno doesthiswork pikhq zgrepc FreeFull joast Taneb ATMunn jix fnodeuser garit Slereah_ zz
09:26:56 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT vpkduv: jix danieljabailey fungot BooK_ wishstudio tromp Melvar lynn ocharles MDude fnodeuser b_jonas zzo38 augur newsham Lymia ski pdxleif trn readability vertrex Warrigal zg
09:26:56 <fungot> raf314: soft is the strain when zephyr gently blows,
09:27:01 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT tzvwd: ski alercah newsham trn b_jonas tromp vertrex brandonson Taneb quintopia heroux rodgort fnodeuser zgrepc doesthiswork MDude Roger9 Slereah_ zemhill_ ocharles hppavilion[1] garit Vorpal puc
09:27:06 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ayytnmexm: dingbat vertrex garit sdfgsdfg grumble Roger9 doesthiswork b_jonas trn contrapumpkin
09:27:11 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT meslkg: Lymia fnodeuser joast heroux doesthiswork idris-bot Melvar sparr MDude sdfgsdfg Vorpal danieljabailey rodgort Roger9 b_jonas ski BooK_ augur Sgeo_ lynn zzo38 fungot newsham hppa
09:27:11 <fungot> raf314: one blank line too much.
09:27:16 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT xenxkp: ^arcade_droid joast xa0 pelegreno danieljabailey GeekDude doesthiswork ocharles sebbu rodgort b_jonas Hooloovo0 Warrigal fnodeuser newsham garit al
09:27:21 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT dzualzjr: idris-bot fnodeuser joast sparr Hooloovo0 b_jonas Sgeo_ heroux pelegreno Slereah_ Cale ATMunn xa0 zgrepc jix ski Warrigal Vorpal wishstudio sebbu
09:27:26 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT dvthtrsq: LeoLambda grumble quintopia vertrex tromp augur hppavilion[1] lynn Sgeo_ zzo38 heroux alercah sebbu b_jonas wishstudio ski AT
09:27:31 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT dmvur: newsham fungot puckipedia readability brandonson Sgeo_ Cale joast sebbu vertrex sdfgsdfg MDude Taneb garit ski xa0 tromp Melvar augur trn grumble Slereah_ hppavilion[1]
09:27:36 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ifdtvas: grumble rodgort Cale FreeFull fungot puckipedia brandonson vertrex alercah Sgeo_ sparr zzo38 b_j
09:27:41 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT lcpygbqkl: b_jonas hppavilion[1] sdfgsdfg ocharles readability alercah rodgort sebbu quintopia fnodeuser GeekDude ATMunn tromp LeoLambda wishstudio newsham brandonso
09:27:46 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT gwdqjd: sebbu Cale ocharles zzo38 newsham Sgeo_ contrapumpkin Slereah_ danieljabailey alercah joast readability zgr
09:27:51 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT tvfveis: puckipedia xa0 Warrigal newsham ocharles sparr pdxleif ^arcade_droid readability zemhill_ joast brandonson grumble alercah Sgeo_ MDude danieljabailey jix heroux Vorpal sdfgsdfg rodgort p
09:27:56 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT iznlfpuf: zzo38 puckipedia dingbat ATMunn contrapumpkin lynn Vorpal pikhq sebbu Cale jix fnodeuser tromp heroux ^arcade_droid Sgeo_ joast GeekDude doesthiswork BooK_ LeoLambda Melvar Fr
09:28:01 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT zsobnsu: puckipedia Warrigal BooK_ pelegreno Vorpal quintopia contrapumpkin tromp b_jonas Cale FreeFull t
09:28:06 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT humnjmjlt: pdxleif danieljabailey idris-bot Hooloovo0 MDude sebbu sdfgsdfg joast xa0 sparr zemhill_ lynn Taneb LeoLambda trn zgrepc BooK_ Vorpal vertrex pelegreno jix ATMunn S
09:28:11 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT enybhi: Lymia zgrepc trn MDude LeoLambda readability wishstudio garit lynn joast newsham Vorpal sdfgsdfg xa0 Cale Roger9 ATMunn pelegreno jix fungot idris-bot fnodeuser doesthiswork seb
09:28:16 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT fbkgsfsb: readability vertrex alercah jix ATMunn LeoLambda pikhq FreeFull Sgeo_ augur Warrigal
09:28:24 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT kxlzrnuw: sebbu Slereah_ Sgeo_ vertrex sparr brandonson FreeFull tromp jix ATMunn newsham ochar
09:28:26 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT apaow: pdxleif Taneb doesthiswork Vorpal MDude brandonson zzo38 zgrepc contrapumpkin sdfgsdfg p
09:28:31 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT eiduc: sdfgsdfg doesthiswork xa0 sparr wishstudio alercah LeoLambda Warrigal newsham ATMunn heroux Sgeo_ pikhq ^arc
09:28:36 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT goszdo: alercah wishstudio garit heroux lynn Taneb Warrigal puckipedia sparr GeekDude Melvar FreeFull readability Lymia Slereah_ rodgort pdxleif b_jonas Vorpal quint
09:28:41 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT wgnzslpsx: Vorpal quintopia xa0 dingbat hppavilion[1] sebbu pelegreno Hooloovo0 Sgeo_ LeoLambda heroux sparr readability ATMunn ocharles vertrex zemhill_ a
09:28:48 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT kaztoqfjrh: Melvar joast GeekDude ski sparr ^arcade_droid Sgeo_ danieljabailey sebbu Vorpal Warrigal read
09:28:55 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT tuzjnfpwwr: heroux puckipedia Lymia LeoLambda sdfgsdfg rodgort trn wishstudio Taneb Warrigal ski sparr augur contrapumpkin grumble quintopia Vorpal newsham MDude Hooloovo0 Sgeo_ dingbat
09:28:56 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT qiytrp: puckipedia Melvar garit dingbat sdfgsdfg pikhq Roger9 FreeFull doesthiswork ATMunn rodgort grumbl
09:29:01 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ydcifbs: Hooloovo0 trn puckipedia rodgort pdxleif ski quintopia brandonson sdfgsdfg Melvar fnodeuser sebbu danieljabailey heroux GeekDude Slereah_ pelegreno dingbat fungot Taneb contrapumpkin spa
09:29:06 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ohlvwfki: rodgort xa0 contrapumpkin alercah GeekDude vertrex zgrepc Melvar zzo38 joast Hooloovo0 brandonson trn zemhill_ Lymia sparr pd
09:29:11 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT xzwuak: fungot tromp Vorpal trn sdfgsdfg MDude lynn xa0 sparr Slereah_ pdxleif augur LeoLambda idris-bot ski contrapumpkin zemhill_ vertrex heroux garit quintopia pikhq Melvar Hooloovo0
09:29:17 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT cnwnep: joast hppavilion[1] vertrex danieljabailey sdfgsdfg tromp Sgeo_ readability fungot zgrepc idris-bot pikhq b
09:29:25 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT rrataayl: hppavilion[1] pdxleif tromp fnodeuser Sgeo_ newsham LeoLambda vertrex puckipedia ATMunn quintop
09:29:26 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT jvarwofycm: ocharles zgrepc Warrigal vertrex sebbu zemhill_ puckipedia trn pelegreno newsham Sgeo_ readability Melv
09:29:31 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT gazvbfv: Lymia readability danieljabailey Hooloovo0 Vorpal tromp ocharles MDude sebbu pikhq jix Slereah_ brandonson augur Warrigal GeekDude alercah puckipedia dingbat pdxleif Taneb newsham hppavi
09:29:36 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT wgpbb: vertrex tromp LeoLambda pelegreno newsham readability GeekDude Roger9 Melvar Sgeo_ pdxleif fungot alercah pikhq brandonson doesthiswork ATMunn Taneb Lymia Hooloovo0 War
09:29:41 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT bhmhkm: augur heroux GeekDude pikhq fungot Warrigal Vorpal lynn hppavilion[1] Taneb Cale doesthiswork pelegreno vertrex LeoLambda Sgeo_ idris-bot wishstudi
09:29:46 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT pvcjzqlxl: vertrex ^arcade_droid FreeFull pelegreno garit Slereah_ augur wishstudio sparr Sgeo_ MDude quintopia doesthiswork Taneb zgrepc BooK_ LeoLambda C
09:29:52 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT avbcoblgx: ATMunn ski tromp Melvar jix zemhill_ Cale BooK_ Taneb trn pelegreno brandonson sdfgs
09:29:56 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT tycbr: contrapumpkin Cale fnodeuser idris-bot zgrepc readability puckipedia LeoLambda pikhq zemhill_ joast ski FreeFull rodgo
09:30:01 <raf314> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ylhczhc: Cale readability pikhq vertrex MDude xa0 Taneb brandonson trn Roger9 alercah zgrepc ski ATMunn wishstudio FreeFull LeoLambda sdfgsdfg sparr newsha
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09:49:49 <Sgeo_> Sigyn is an anti-spam bot. May I suggest inviting it in?
09:50:20 <myname> i don't get spamming. like anybody ever thought "oh, they annoyed me, i better befriend them"
09:51:04 <int-e> Sgeo_: it would be an interesting experiment... I wonder what Sigyn would think of fungot.
09:51:04 <fungot> int-e: especially if the person grading the thing is, do you intend fnord?
09:54:12 <int-e> well at least now I know that these spammers do use colors
10:00:29 <FireFly> I don't think fungot would pose a problem
10:00:29 <fungot> FireFly: you're not being serious
10:01:01 <FireFly> outwitted by fungot, again
10:01:01 <fungot> FireFly: i love going back and doing so is too great, it's python
10:03:11 <int-e> In any case Sigyn is doing good work elsewhere (##math is where I see it in action most often). And it would increase the numbers of bots here, so why not.
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12:21:34 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:29:02 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53716&oldid=53535 * YuvalM * (+430)
12:30:24 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53717&oldid=53716 * YuvalM * (+2) Added == to my edit to make it a title
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14:01:26 <int-e> ais523: http://sprunge.us/MjWf <-- Peano Arithmetic in Tableaux. (I'm getting confused above that; do we get anything second order as well?)
14:02:16 <ais523> int-e: I think Tableaux can do certain diagonalisations that Peano Arithmetic can't, but am far from certain
14:04:10 <Vorpal> had a good christmas so far?
14:04:32 <int-e> ais523: Yeah it seems that it /should/ be possible to get a variable number of quantifier alternations, but ... well as I said it's confusing.
14:05:00 <ais523> Vorpal: it's mostly just a break from work and a chance to see family
14:05:02 -!- boily has joined.
14:05:21 <ais523> although my family is fairly centralised at the moment, it's much easier to see them than it would have been a couple of years ago
14:06:02 <ais523> also I publicised an esolang on Christmas that I've been trying to pin down the details of for ages
14:06:14 <ais523> the thing about a tarpit is that you want the set of commands to be as small as possible
14:06:26 <ais523> earlier versions needed both addition /and/ multiplication, but this version gets away with just increment
14:06:46 <Vorpal> I went out to buy some stuff today. I don't think I ever seen the parking lot at the mall this filled up. Do you have sales just after christmas in UK too?
14:06:52 <int-e> Anyway PA is a very sane and natural source language for Tableaux.
14:07:22 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tableaux
14:08:07 <ais523> my autoreplace says http not https and http is kind-of broken on the wiki
14:08:09 <ais523> so I was busy reconfiguring it
14:08:13 <ais523> so that I can say https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tableaux easily
14:10:15 <Vorpal> huh, interesting language. Not a paradigm I think I ever seen anything close to before
14:10:29 <Vorpal> though I might just be unfamiliar with said paradigm
14:10:56 <ais523> technically speaking it's declarative, but it's way more general than a declarative language would normally be
14:11:12 <Vorpal> I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it
14:11:44 <ais523> it took me a while as well
14:12:19 <ais523> just because I create an esolang doesn't mean I fully understand it
14:12:33 <ais523> like, I can know what the rules are but not how to exploit them
14:14:14 <int-e> Hmm, can we translate bounded Tableaux (with a finite number of rows... let's say the rest are always 0) back to PA?
14:14:34 <Vorpal> any plans on writing an interpreter?
14:14:54 <ais523> Vorpal: I've been thinking about it but probably not in the near future, I only have a finite supply of motivation at the moment
14:15:03 <ais523> it'd have to understand a very large proportion of mathematics to get the best results
14:15:20 <ais523> as it's an uncomputable language, so the best you can do is run as many programs as possible via proving that the execution works in this particular case
14:15:21 <int-e> solving the halting problem gets very frustrating.
14:15:32 <ais523> it's like solving the halting problem, you can do it in a lot of special cases but not in general
14:15:33 <int-e> and this exceeds the difficulty of the halting problem :)
14:16:18 <Vorpal> ais523: so right after Feather? ;)
14:16:32 <ais523> there's no particular reason Feather should be uncomputable
14:16:43 <ais523> it may be that Feather can't be implemented, but not because of that
14:17:25 <Vorpal> anyway, I would assume you could implement Tableaux by translating it to the input language for one of the already existing SAT solvers?
14:17:31 <Vorpal> Or have I missed something vital?
14:18:07 <ais523> most satisfaction problems are only finitely large
14:18:53 <Vorpal> oh, that is true, this can express infinite problems, which I guess most SAT solvers can't handle? (Haven't really looked into the details of them, nor used them)
14:19:19 <Vorpal> What about Coq or something like that though? Or does that have similar limitations?
14:19:35 <ais523> now for many programs you can prove that only a finite subset matters, so a SAT solver would work for some, but not all
14:19:44 <ais523> Coq is a proof checker, not a proof finder
14:20:01 <ais523> it has tactics that can automate part of the proof finding but not do the whole thing unless it's very simple
14:20:04 <int-e> SAT solvers are very finite. SMT solvers may deal with some infinite stuff (integer variables most notably); automated and interactive theorem provers go beyond that.
14:20:18 <ais523> now, one possible approach would be to brute force proofs until you find one that proves the result you want and is also correct
14:20:21 <ais523> but that'd be incredibly slow
14:20:46 <Vorpal> brute forcing usually is slow yes
14:20:50 <int-e> Hmm. I don't know of any ATP that does Peano Arithmetic... I wonder.
14:21:45 <int-e> I guess the induction principle is quite awful for automation. But still, people must have tried...
14:22:27 <Vorpal> why would proof by induction be bad for automation?
14:23:39 <Vorpal> there may be an obvious answer to this, I haven't really thought much about automated theorem proving at all.
14:23:59 <int-e> well, often you need to prove a stronger statement than given. and then the search space explodes.
14:24:14 <ais523> in general, finding closed forms is hard to automate; if not for that, automatically finding integrals would be easy
14:25:07 <Vorpal> I guess you both have points here yes
14:25:28 <int-e> so it'll work for simple cases, and then break down for lack of guidance/sense of direction. (This may be a target for machine learning. Induction patterns...)
14:26:01 <Vorpal> hm, sounds like a promising research area
14:31:19 <ais523> this makes me think of an only tangentially related question: which computational classes can self-interpret?
14:31:27 <ais523> obviously TC can, but can any of the others?
14:32:17 <Vorpal> ais523: there are obviously very simple classes that can not.
14:32:33 <Vorpal> getting more and more unsure the more I think about it
14:33:14 <myname> regular languages shouldn't
14:33:35 <Vorpal> what does NL stand for?
14:33:40 <ais523> at least, that's near the top of my list of classes I'd expect to be able to
14:33:44 <ais523> Vorpal: nondeterministic logspace
14:34:15 <ais523> basically, you have input as a read-only array, the only working space you're allowed is finitely many pointers into the array
14:34:39 <Vorpal> which languages fall in that?
14:34:43 <int-e> primitive recursion can't.
14:35:23 <Vorpal> so state is just a set of pointers into the input, hm.
14:35:36 <int-e> P and NP can... hmm, logspace.
14:35:56 <ais523> the thing about nondeterministic logspace though is that you can fork the program but the resulting threads can't communicate at all
14:35:59 <ais523> simply exit, or not exit
14:36:08 <ais523> and if any of them succeed, the program succeeds
14:36:14 <Vorpal> thought P an NP were complexity classes, not language classes?
14:36:34 <int-e> languages accepted by a polynomial time TM
14:36:45 <ais523> the two correspond, a language is in P if you can write a program that recognises that language and runs in P
14:37:23 <ais523> space classes are more investigated in esolang research than time classes though
14:37:49 <ais523> because people are reluctant to write languages without any form of infinite loop construct
14:37:59 <Vorpal> nondeterminism is an interesting concept
14:38:02 <ais523> and when they do, the language normally runs in linear time and constant space
14:38:27 <Vorpal> I guess a quantum computer would be ideal for implementing some of that?
14:38:40 <ais523> quantum and nondeterminism work differently
14:38:52 <ais523> with quantum, the various threads amplify/attenuate each other's probabilities
14:39:08 <ais523> with nondeterminism, you're taking a maximum of the probabilities, rather than adding phasors
14:39:15 <int-e> Actually this question is quite sensitive to how programs are encoded.
14:39:25 <Vorpal> so does quantum has a separate complexity hierarchy? Or is it part of the main one?
14:39:29 <ais523> int-e: yes, that doesn't surprise me
14:39:36 <ais523> Vorpal: BQP is the best known quantum complexity class
14:39:51 <ais523> it's known to be (non-strictly) between P and NP; it's commonly believed different from both
14:40:00 <ais523> although of course if P=NP it's the same as both
14:40:22 <ais523> it's not known to be entirely inside NP
14:41:46 <Vorpal> is there any public key crypto that would not be easily breakable with quantum computers?
14:42:41 <ais523> yes, elliptic-curve crypto isn't known to be breakable even with a quantum computer
14:42:53 <ais523> that's one of the reasons it's attracted research interest
14:43:16 <ais523> discrete log and integer factorization /are/ both known to be solveable in BQP, so quantum computers are likely to break crypto that's based on either of those problems
14:45:09 <int-e> djb has a crazy paper about post-quantum RSA. It's crazy because it proposes a key size of 1 TB. :P
14:45:18 <int-e> https://encrypted.google.com/url?q=https://cr.yp.to/papers/pqrsa-20170419.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwj71cbw9KfYAhWCyKQKHdEKASkQFggYMAA&usg=AOvVaw1sUPvbDPt4zf9dtOOqg7AF
14:45:25 <int-e> ah, fuck you google
14:45:31 <int-e> https://cr.yp.to/papers/pqrsa-20170419.pdf
14:48:06 <int-e> but they have one cute point... you don't need to stick to using only two primes in the product.
14:49:33 <int-e> (the other point should be boring, but djb makes it very often... you can beat any speedup by making the input large enough.)
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17:04:36 <myname> too bad i can't get them running
17:12:07 <int-e> green on yellow on white is quite ugly...
17:14:26 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sixel.png
17:17:52 <myname> when i call img2sixel in xterm, it just does nothing
17:19:12 <fizzie> I think my dot matrix printer had a kind of an eixel mode. "\e*" + horizontal DPI indicator + data length + data bytes each specifying an 8-pixel column.
17:19:17 <int-e> myname: see the first line... you need to enable the vt340 emulation
17:22:16 <int-e> myname: xterm -ti vt340 should give you an xterm with vt340 enabled. I just added it as a comment inside that xterm...
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17:56:52 <zzo38> Did you try my "ffsixel" program? And, still, you do need to specify the correct kind of terminal to emulate.
18:22:04 <myname> sixel support for nethack would be fun
18:26:05 <zzo38> This program I wrote just converts a picture into sixel format.
18:26:28 <myname> so does img2pixel i thought
18:28:31 <zzo38> Maybe it does; I don't know that program
18:29:03 <zzo38> However, maybe other program has some mistake I don't know
18:29:19 <myname> its what i got with libsixel
18:30:46 <zzo38> I had a problem with libsixel so I wrote my own, which seems to work better.
18:32:18 <zzo38> Well, it just didn't seem to produce proper output, somehow.
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19:40:26 <int-e> . o O ( Yeah, github, thanks for rubbing my nose in the fact that I created an issue that received 2 comments. I wouldn't object much except that both these comments were by myself... )
19:48:00 <fizzie> int-e: Does github have achievements yet?
19:48:36 <int-e> not that I can see, but there's a funny icon next to that message... I'm afraid they're etching closer
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22:07:12 <\oren\_> https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/914660288904385733/FC7666FF8A6DDD28B8CFBCC3C0D2CEAADD71A126/
22:25:53 <fizzie> FEUDA..., it looks like.
22:28:26 <Taneb> "feudal", I believe
22:28:34 <Taneb> This being the government type map mode in CK2
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22:39:16 <\oren\_> yeah and as you can see venice is gone
22:42:50 <Taneb> I should get back in to CK2
22:42:57 <Taneb> I was having a game as Socotra which was quite fun
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23:46:24 <quintopia> boily: your electrotaped shoebox arrived just in time. i finished my growler yesterday
23:46:40 <quintopia> had a hell of a time trying to read the french text on that one bottle
23:46:59 <oerjan> a growling electrotaped shoebox, check
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23:47:55 <quintopia> no the box was hohoing, not growling hth
23:52:25 <\oren\_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:52:29 <\oren\_> https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/914660288904720745/49ACFA017328020A3BC8DD95D870A34DFA0EADE2/
23:56:41 <boily> hellørjan. it was indeed a bona fide electrotaped shoebox. I had fun wrapping it :D
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00:10:31 <oerjan> helloily. . o O ( what _is_ an electrotaped shoebox, anyway )
00:11:20 <boily> it's a shoebox. I used electric tape to solidly tape it.
00:11:47 <boily> I also mailed it to quintopia ^^
00:12:47 <fizzie> Huh, hadn't realized diff -q will still say something if the files are different. I thought it was just about the return code.
00:13:01 * oerjan isn't sure why \oren\_ is screaming, but vaguely suspect the caliphate realm bordering italy.
00:15:33 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> yes, elliptic-curve crypto isn't known to be breakable even with a quantum computer <-- that doesn't seem to be true
00:22:18 <quintopia> oerjan: it is. no one has proposed an elliptic curve decoding algorithm that runs in poly time on a qc
00:23:03 <quintopia> (except the one that uses the private key)
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00:44:07 <oerjan> quintopia: hm the wikipedia article on elliptic curve cryptography claims it's _more_ breakable than RSA...
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00:53:17 <quintopia> oerjan: well the kind used now maybe
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01:02:35 <oerjan> @tell ais523 By one reading of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic-curve_cryptography , anyway.
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02:22:58 <HackEgo> 1/1:ist//An ist is an incomplete list. \ `sled//`sled <filename>//<sed script> \ do//Do or do not, there is no try. \ i,i//i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying". \ atwp//According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper".
02:22:59 <HackEgo> 1/1:ist//An ist is an incomplete list. \ `sled//`sled <filename>//<sed script> \ do//Do or do not, there is no try. \ i,i//i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying". \ atwp//According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper".
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05:42:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gregor Y * New user account
05:49:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53718&oldid=53668 * Gregor Y * (+172) /* Introductions */
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08:02:01 <\oren\_> lol my court physician made me snort a grey powder that increased all my stats by 3
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11:23:47 <Vorpal> or what is the context of your statement?
11:24:45 <int-e> . o O ( senility + 3 [You used to laugh about senility but you forgot what was so funny about it.] )
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12:09:07 <ais523> someone in another channel pointed me to this: https://github.com/fergusq/tampio
12:09:25 <ais523> someone who knows Finnish is probably necessary to see how interesting it is as a syntax modifier (is it more like Perligata or more like LOLCODE?)
12:11:17 <ais523> @message oerjan hmm, I think crypto has evolved since I last saw it; I assume the article is a more up-to-date summary of modern understanding than my own
12:11:17 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
12:11:21 <ais523> @tell oerjan hmm, I think crypto has evolved since I last saw it; I assume the article is a more up-to-date summary of modern understanding than my own
12:12:15 <fizzie> I think I heard about Tampio somewhere.
12:13:50 <fizzie> I think it's closer to Perligata.
12:14:54 <ais523> hmm, this documentation uses "array" and "list" in the opposite sense to Perl, that's confusing
12:18:26 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+1F638 GRINNING CAT FACE WITH SMILING EYES]
12:19:34 <int-e> fractal cheshire cat?
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14:02:25 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 79brue * New user account
14:05:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53719&oldid=53718 * 79brue * (+166) /* Introductions */
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16:33:28 <esowiki> [[What the fuck is the Internet?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53720&oldid=53657 * JayCampbell * (+512) Added links to Jay compiler and Bob compiler
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19:31:07 <int-e> oh GG, dragus ex machina...
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23:16:13 <lambdabot> ais523 said 11h 4m 51s ago: hmm, I think crypto has evolved since I last saw it; I assume the article is a more up-to-date summary of modern understanding than my own
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23:44:22 <oerjan> <int-e> oh GG, dragus ex machina... <-- more like a serpens
23:45:46 <int-e> oerjan: did you see #14618? the horror :/
23:46:01 <oerjan> "One traditional rule gives the distinction among the various Latin synonyms as anguis being a water snake; draco being a "temple" snake, the sort of large, exotic snake associated with the guardianship of temples; and serpens being a common terrestrial snake. This rule is not universally credited, however."
23:46:13 <oerjan> i guess Draco could be right, then.
23:48:29 <int-e> (lambdabot was back on ghc 8.0.2 for a bit, now it's on a patched 8.2.2)
23:48:48 <int-e> but it makes me wonder how many more such oversights there may be
23:51:09 <int-e> that makes me feel better?!
23:51:42 <int-e> exascale oversights
23:52:01 <int-e> (though that would be billions *of* billions)
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01:39:24 <lambdabot> CYQB 280100Z 25016G22KT 15SM FEW130 M22/M28 A3030 RMK AC2 SLP273
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01:52:39 <oerjan> helloily. clearly a very displeased cow.
01:52:51 <lambdabot> EGLL 280120Z AUTO 27008KT 9999 NCD 00/M02 Q1000 NOSIG
01:52:59 <lambdabot> ENVA 280120Z 09010KT 9999 BKN045 M03/M08 Q0988 RMK WIND 670FT 09009KT
01:54:53 <boily> hellørjan. a cryogenised cow.
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02:17:17 <shachaf> fizzie: should i vote in the finnish presidential election twh
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02:31:08 <oerjan> . o O ( be careful not to set a bad president )
02:31:33 <boily> they're going to be steamed in a sauna in any case.
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02:31:42 <boily> nobody can be bad after a good steamage.
02:31:46 <oerjan> hakatashi1: is your connection fixed
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02:33:40 <oerjan> holy oversized ban list batman
02:34:29 <oerjan> but no other forgotten fix_your_connections, at least
02:34:47 <shachaf> have you checked fixyourconnection and fox_your_connection and so on
02:35:39 <oerjan> well i only checked carefully at both ends.
02:35:59 <oerjan> since that's where new bans tend to get added
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02:36:27 <shachaf> anyway what's the issue with a long banlist
02:36:31 <shachaf> do you not have enough banwidth
02:36:57 <oerjan> this would all be a lot easier if freenode didn't keep resetting the times on them
02:37:18 <oerjan> shachaf: i vaguely thought there was a limit around 50, but we're way over that.
02:37:30 <oerjan> so that must have changed.
02:38:12 <oerjan> also i'm procrastinating eating again ->
02:39:04 <shachaf> today the doctor told me i should eat more #scow
02:39:29 <shachaf> or the dietitian or something
02:39:48 <shachaf> talked to too many medical professionals over the past few days
02:41:40 <boily> oerjan: how many nutella balls left?
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03:02:57 <HackEgo> 1/2:lynn//lynn likes to impersonate seasonal cucurbitaceæ. \ phantom__hoover//Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is. \ indonesia//Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord. \ dc//dc is short for "d
03:03:02 <HackEgo> 2/2:ump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[') \ spämmer//Spämmers are advertisers of Spämmi, the delicious Finnish fish product.
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03:04:04 <shachaf> the parenthetical is unmistakable
03:06:50 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know; I was planning to.
03:07:07 <fizzie> shachaf: I think it's pretty clear who's going to win, though.
03:12:40 <fizzie> BBC's web streaming thing (iPlayer) has a volume control with discrete levels 0, 1, 2, ..., 10, 11 (of course it goes up to eleven), but I can't find anywhere what the "neutral" level is.
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03:26:11 <doesthiswork> (O.o) This is Bunny. Add Bunny to your signature
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03:32:41 <boily> doesthelloswork. can I slowly cook the bunny with veggies and some wine and let it simmer for a few hours?
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03:48:40 * oerjan looks askance at doesthiswork and prepares the Holy Hand Grenade
03:49:45 <izabera> oh it's been a while since i've played worms
03:50:40 <esowiki> [[User:79brue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53721 * 79brue * (+6) Created page with "Hello."
03:53:28 <boily> izabellora. I'ma ninja rope then dynamite you into oblivion! mwah ah ah ah ah.
03:54:07 <izabera> been a while since i've talked in here, too
03:54:29 <\oren\_> People's Liberation Army Rocket Force
03:54:42 <izabera> i'm still working on shell stuff btw
03:54:55 <izabera> https://asciinema.org/a/153753 little demo i made a few days ago
03:55:22 <izabera> udb is a heavily hacked-upon gdb
03:56:02 <izabera> and i wrote a compiler for bash that doesn't support much of bash's syntax
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10:24:33 <int-e> . o O ( Taneb is full of ACTION )
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11:57:10 <lambdabot> PAMR 281153Z 09004KT 1/2SM FZFG VV002 M15/M16 A3028 RMK AO2 SLP259 4/002 I6001 T11501156 11133 21161 58008 $
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13:26:48 <fizzie> Some closure for the BBC iPlayer volume comment from last night: could be that 11 is the neutral (no scaling) volume level. At least there's a `_volume` field in the player JS object that gets set to 1 when the slider is at 11.
13:26:52 <fizzie> It's just a little odd because the slider seems to sorta-default to something like 9. Or else it's just remembering old settings.
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14:48:16 <fungot> boily: srfi-13 ref impl compiled after commenting out some syntax-rules... :) makes it hard to refactor code.
14:50:40 <int-e> fungot: stop making sense please
14:50:40 <fungot> int-e: morning all :) ( quantum physics)
14:51:21 <int-e> fungot: is it a good morning or a bad morning, or a superposition of both?
14:51:22 <fungot> int-e: very much so, i'll just stash a copy of the repository demo app is how little server-side scheme code is tedious and should not be hard to prove formally. does scheme have libraries like c does
14:52:45 <int-e> fungot: Why do software libraries not use the Dewey decimal system?
14:52:45 <fungot> int-e: i know you can write lisp programs that write c++ programs... it's pretty graphical :p. i think
14:53:16 <int-e> fungot: Well, **** is much more graphical.
14:53:16 <fungot> int-e: but equivalent.) a variety of languages! :d)
14:54:38 <int-e> . o O ( Obviously, computers would need a Dewey Hexadecimal Classification. )
14:59:21 <boily> int-ello. morning is a state of mind.
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15:16:27 <lambdabot> CYQB 281508Z 24017KT 2 1/2SM -SHSN DRSN OVC045 M22/M26 A3028 RMK SC8 CVCTV CLDS EMBD SLP266
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15:17:15 <lambdabot> LOWI 281450Z VRB07KT 9999 -SHSN SCT030 BKN050 BKN300 02/M02 Q0999 R08/19//95 NOSIG
15:17:52 <lambdabot> LOWW 281450Z 31015KT 9999 FEW024 SCT046 BKN082 05/00 Q0995 TEMPO FM1600 RA
15:19:20 <lambdabot> EDDT 281450Z 28010KT 9999 BKN018 04/01 Q0995 NOSIG
15:19:22 <lambdabot> EDDF 281450Z 26008KT 9999 SCT026 SCT110 BKN250 04/00 Q1002 NOSIG
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17:07:24 <esowiki> [[Lambdastack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53722&oldid=34495 * Spk44 * (+137) Added a section for implementations, include my own
17:18:31 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53723&oldid=53665 * Weirdlang * (+12)
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17:58:24 <HackEgo> 1/2:ayacc//ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from darcs clone http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc \ mirth//Mirths are juvenile moths. They giggle a lot. \ schaf//"Schaf" is german for "sheep". There is absolutely no relation to shachaf. \ the torus//Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it so he'
17:58:28 <HackEgo> 2/2:d have something to drink his preferred beverage out of. \ funpun//funpuns fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
18:01:32 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
18:01:54 <HackEgo> King fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky canary prime minister of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
18:02:11 <boily> `slwd fizzie//s/\bfi/Fi/
18:02:13 <HackEgo> fizzie//King Fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky canary prime minister of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
18:03:59 <HackEgo> A canary is a small bright yellow chicken that dwells in deep caves. Unlike bats, canaries are oriented right way up.
18:05:43 <int-e> Is that still true when they're dead?
18:06:47 <shachaf> Taneb: What is your preferred beverage?
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18:45:18 <zzo38> Now I have also added the program to make OpenSimplex noise.
18:45:25 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3d 8h 6m 29s ago: In https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/unstable-faqawaslfaqpaftidawabiajtbt-2017-12-06 , an interpretation is given to "destroy target player"
18:45:25 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3d 8h 5m 54s ago: ( 16.06.17:23:16:04 <zzo38> (It also says "destroy target player"; of course only permanents can be destroyed, not players.) )
18:46:01 <shachaf> I think you already responded to that.
18:46:38 <zzo38> Yes, I did respond already to that
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20:41:40 <fizzie> There will be a fungot outage of an hour or so, I'm rearranging furniture.
20:41:41 <fungot> fizzie: the world is an orgy of clusterfucks. :( lauri has changed his name to ' the market' we would be if you) kill yourself in the foot if your problem is before anyone can help me
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20:45:00 <int-e> fungot is a roadrunner?
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23:11:12 <fizzie> fungot: Feeling all right?
23:11:12 <fungot> fizzie: what i listen to
23:12:57 <int-e> fungot: where have you been, we almost missed you
23:12:57 <fungot> int-e: the circles just tell you where to put
23:13:34 <fungot> int-e: this pizza symbolizes my complete emotional recovery!
23:14:10 <int-e> fizzie: did you discover and dustbunnies or other sapient life forms while moving furniture?
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23:34:01 <fizzie> int-e: Just great balls of wire.
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00:09:34 <oerjan> <int-e> Is that still true when they're dead?
00:09:41 <HackEgo> A canary is a small bright yellow chicken that dwells in deep caves. Unlike bats, canaries are oriented right way up.
00:10:23 <oerjan> `slwd canary//s.up.up, unless they're pining for the fjords,
00:10:24 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 46: unterminated `s' command
00:10:28 <oerjan> `slwd canary//s.up.up, unless they're pining for the fjords.
00:10:30 <HackEgo> canary//A canary is a small bright yellow chicken that dwells in deep caves. Unlike bats, canaries are oriented right way up, unless they're pining for the fjords.
00:13:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnnanFay * New user account
00:13:39 <oerjan> <fizzie> int-e: Just great balls of wire. <-- lucky that wasn't just one letter different.
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00:16:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53724&oldid=53719 * AnnanFay * (+149) /* Introductions */
00:19:23 <int-e> oerjan: what are... bulls of wire
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00:20:38 <int-e> also, great balls of lire might still be worth something
00:24:31 <oerjan> someone is a little impatient, i sense
00:24:58 * int-e wonders how people prove that Moebius transformations map circles and lines to circles and lines
00:26:21 <int-e> ... well they seem to have persevered [what a word]?
00:26:28 <int-e> of course we'll only know if they make another edit
00:27:12 <int-e> oerjan: I recall a similar case, where I left a comment: https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Ahto
00:30:40 <oerjan> int-e: part of the trick is that a line is just a circle passing through oo, me thinks
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00:31:07 <oerjan> and moebius transformations are defined on the whole gaussian sphere
00:32:28 * oerjan long since forgot the actual proof, anyway
00:32:58 <int-e> (Moebius transformations... what I have focuses on the special case x |-> 1/(x+r) where r is real and the unit circle; after subtracting k/(1-k^2) and dividing by x/(1-k^2), we end up with a fraction that has a complex number as its denominator and its conjugate as the numerator... so that's a unit circle again. The cases k = +/-1 end up with a straight line.)
00:33:27 <int-e> (the rest you get because you can rotate around the origin, scale, and translate arbitrarily)
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00:37:05 <int-e> anyway, it feels ugly.
00:37:27 <oerjan> i think 1/x is the only thing you need to handle specially, then
00:39:19 <int-e> Well basically I want to take an arbitrary circle and pole and use an affine transformation to get the unit circle and some pole on the real axis... I can't force it to be at 0.
00:40:37 <int-e> (and I want the unit circle because if |x| = 1 then 1/x and x are conjugates... makes the arithmetic easier)
00:43:02 <oerjan> there's probably some nifty geometric argument with projections or whatever, but i don't remember it.
00:43:21 <int-e> oerjan: so yeah it's basically the same thing as showing for 1/x that it maps circles to circles, possibly degenerate
00:43:52 <int-e> this is closely related to inversion at a circle, of course.
00:45:02 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secant-tangent_theorem is relevant
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12:49:53 <int-e> fungot: do you have a golden radio?
12:49:53 <fungot> int-e: writing to variables a and b
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13:54:56 <Vorpal> fungot: what about a golden ratio?
13:54:56 <fungot> Vorpal: you are false.
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14:01:02 <fizzie> fungot: Play nice, you.
14:01:03 <fungot> fizzie: people generally didn't think it was in asm 360, and i see this stuff is so clear
14:11:37 <esowiki> [[What the fuck is the Internet?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53725&oldid=53720 * JayCampbell * (+175) Added brainfuck transpiler to prove Turing Completeness
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15:56:14 <fungot> ATMunn: mutually referential modules. when an interface is..." at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord?
15:56:31 <ATMunn> fungot: you make no sense
15:56:31 <fungot> ATMunn: maybe the tokenizer thinks it's a number less than -45 to 315 17 -126) automagically." " yeah we are not providing 100% scientific proof, we are using the rhythm method?
15:56:51 <oerjan> . o O ( and then there were ten )
15:58:21 <fungot> oerjan: i think i've worked out so far.
15:58:48 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:58:48 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
15:58:54 <oerjan> ATMunn: that's just you not understanding mutual recursion hth
15:59:15 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
15:59:38 <oerjan> fungot has a ^list ? i suspect it doesn't have the expected features.
15:59:38 <fungot> oerjan: that'd be a cool way to do it before :) was it a misspelling, a joke mud in which the substitutes are defined is not any harder to understand
16:02:07 <ATMunn> I just sort-of finished a prototype documentation for a new esolang :D
16:08:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ATMunn * New user account
16:17:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53726&oldid=53724 * ATMunn * (+568) Introduced self
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20:35:55 <HackEgo> olist 1108: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:38:23 <HackEgo> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
20:38:39 <HackEgo> olist help: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:38:40 <variable> maybe I no have access to HackEgo ?
20:39:04 <shachaf> hey, don't olist if there's no olist update. that's rude. tdnh
20:39:08 <HackEgo> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
20:39:23 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 38 May 21 2017 /hackenv/bin/help
20:39:31 <shachaf> It's not even slow. It answered your question right away.
20:39:51 <FireFly> 21:34:33 <variable> `help olist
20:39:51 <FireFly> 21:34:36 <HackEgo> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
20:39:56 <FireFly> there might be some latency on your end
20:40:11 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/logs/2017-12-29.html
20:40:36 <variable> https://www.dropbox.com/s/i0rwqtol3fljbvl/Screenshot%202017-12-29%2012.40.18.png?dl=0
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20:54:29 <fizzie> @tell oerjan You yourself adjusted the fungot list back in February 2013: https://esolangs.org/logs/2013-02-03.html#ld
20:54:29 <fungot> fizzie: another question, what's wrong in sex at an early age. besides being generally unable to get a hyperspec lookup, if anyone has had any experience *whatsoever* to base your part on, there even was a movie of using one of the problems
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00:00:23 <oerjan> . o O ( just in time to avoid having to load two log pages )
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01:25:43 <lambdabot> fizzie said 4h 31m 13s ago: You yourself adjusted the fungot list back in February 2013: https://esolangs.org/logs/2013-02-03.html#ld
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01:39:30 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:39:40 <moony> @help messages-cloudy
01:39:40 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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12:03:55 <int-e> (Poor highschool math competition problem authors, the next prime after 2017 will be 2027.)
12:06:26 <int-e> I guess it's esoteric enough, but it still wasn't meant for this channel :)
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12:48:40 <int-e> Huh, FIDE rules are surprisingly murky around illegal moves.
12:56:58 <int-e> (This is triggered by yesterday's incident in the Carlsen-Inarkiev game. By my reading of the rules, Carlsen made a legal move [since the rules say nothing about leaving your opponent's king in check, just your own].)
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13:32:41 <lambdabot> EGLL 301320Z AUTO 26020G30KT 9999 SCT032 14/08 Q0998 NOSIG
13:32:46 <fizzie> That's pretty ridiculous.
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14:08:59 <lambdabot> LOWI 301350Z 27012KT 9999 -RASN FEW004 SCT030 BKN055 01/M00 Q1012 R08/19//95 TEMPO 4000 RASN
14:10:07 <int-e> (unpleasant though, it's quite wet.)
14:53:13 <int-e> "elevated levels of demand for a revolution"
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16:18:07 <lambdabot> CYQB 301600Z 22009KT 30SM FEW015 OVC150 M21/M26 A3002 RMK CF1AS7 SLP177
16:25:47 <int-e> "Our species, homo sapiens sapiens, is about 300,000 years old. Now it used to be 200,000 years old but it grew an extra 100,000 years in the last year because of new archeaological discoveries."
16:28:14 <zzo38> int-e: What is the FEN position where that happened?
16:30:41 <boily> int-ello, hezzo38.
16:31:25 <int-e> *blindly copies* from 1r2r3/1R3ppp/1k6/1B1n4/8/2P2P2/2K3PP/1R6 b - - 0 27 the next moves were 27...Ne3+ 28 . Kd3
16:32:22 <int-e> https://chess24.com/en/read/news/riyadh-blitz-day-1-karjakin-is-back
16:37:00 <zzo38> They did not notice that 27...Ne3+ is leaving you in check, I suppose.
16:37:49 <zzo38> Also, if you want to convert FEN into a displayable ASCII diagram, one thing you can do is what I did: sed 's/8/44/g;s/7/43/g;s/6/33/g;s/5/32/g;s/4/22/g;s/3/21/g;s/2/11/g' | tr '1/' $'.\n'
16:38:22 <int-e> zzo38: It's unclear. Black (!) tried to claim a win after Kd3 because supposedly it was an illegal move.
16:38:50 <int-e> (This was a blitz game, so illegal moves are immediate losses.)
16:38:57 <int-e> (if noticed and claimed)
16:39:53 <int-e> Anyway, it'll be a feast for rule lawyers.
16:39:57 <zzo38> O, OK. Well, it seem to me that Kd3 is moving from an invalid position, so I don't know how it can be said to be legal or illegal?
16:41:04 <int-e> You can check whether it fulfills all the requirements for a legal move in the FIDE laws of chess.
16:41:07 <zzo38> (But, I am not sure what the FIDE rules say about such cases)
16:41:46 <int-e> And the most relevant rule here is 3.9: "3.9 The king is said to be 'in check' if it is attacked by one or more of the opponent's pieces, even if such pieces are constrained from moving to the square occupied by the king because they would then leave or place their own king in check. No piece can be moved that will either expose the king of the same colour to check or leave that king in check."
16:43:08 <int-e> So basically, nothing in the definition of a legal move refers to the legality of the position before that move.
16:43:57 <zzo38> The king of the same colour is the moved piece itself, and it isn't in check, so rule 3.9 does not seem to make 28. Kd3 illegal.
16:44:17 <int-e> Yeah, that's why I think it was a legal move.
16:44:40 <zzo38> But is there another rule that makes it illegal?
16:44:58 <int-e> I don't think so. https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=171&view=article section 3
16:45:05 <int-e> s/section/article/
16:45:47 <int-e> For example, it would have been different if W had captured the king. That's explicitly forbidden.
16:48:10 <zzo38> boily: FEN is Forsyth Edwards Notation.
16:49:36 <zzo38> Rule 3.10c says that a position is illegal if it cannot be reached by legal moves, but that does not say that the move is illegal.
16:51:56 <int-e> you can even make up moves from an illegal position to another illegal position that are legal. (For example a rook move leading to ...rKr...)
16:52:53 <int-e> (rKrn is a funny illegal mate in the middle of a board)
16:57:45 <int-e> . o O ( `learn 8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8 is an empty chess board in FEN notation. )
16:58:21 <int-e> `learn 8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8 is an empty chess board in FEN notation.
16:58:24 <HackEgo> Learned '8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8': 8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8 is an empty chess board in FEN notation.
17:00:55 <int-e> `slwd 8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8//s/ notation//
17:00:56 <HackEgo> 8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8//8/8/8/8/8/8/8/8 is an empty chess board in FEN.
17:06:28 <int-e> "If we invented an AI that was like the human mind it would do the AI equivalent of sitting on the sofa munching popcorn and watching the Superbowl all day. It wouldn't be much use to us."
17:06:40 <zzo38> Sometimes you might want to use the name as an actual file too, and this way it doesn't work; such as, now "8/8" is a directory so you can't add an ordinary file of that name into the wisdom entries; one way to deal with such thing I suppose, would be that if it is a directory due to it contains other files, to create a file named ".DEFAULT" in that directory and then to use that.
17:07:37 * int-e is watching https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9270-dude_you_broke_the_future
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17:30:15 * boily is confused by chess
17:33:50 <shachaf> zzo38: But sometimes you want a wisdom with a name like 8/8/.DEFAULT
17:41:54 <zzo38> shachaf: But doesn't it convert names to lowercase normally?
17:43:33 <shachaf> Strictly speaking it ought to check the uppercase name first, for consistency
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18:01:11 <int-e> boily: FWIW, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth%E2%80%93Edwards_Notation shouldn't be that hard to find
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18:05:31 <boily> int-e: densely packed infos, but clear.
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20:00:01 <HackEgo> 1/2:www//WWW is an abbreviation that takes longer to pronounce properly than what it expands to. \ blu-ray//Blu-ray is the favorite storage format of Hooloovoos. \ ghoti//“Ghoti” is a very fishy spelling. \ nvd//nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional. \ corium//Corium is the material that a nuclear reactor'
20:00:04 <HackEgo> 2/2:s core dump is made of.
20:01:44 <HackEgo> 7520:2016-04-23 <int-̈e> learn Corium is the material that a nuclear reactor\'s core dump is made of.
20:02:09 <fizzie> That -̈ is like a tiny face.
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20:08:40 <int-e> my plan in choosing this nick is finally coming to fruition.
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21:33:22 <lambdabot> CYUL 302100Z 02007KT 10SM -SN SCT025 BKN050 OVC070 M18/M23 A2998 RMK SC4SC2AS2 SLP157
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22:15:24 <\oren\_> 4 cold sticks of butter, 4 cups flour, 1/4 cup cornstarch, 1 cup sugar, first cream butter then thorughly mix everything until dough is crumbly. pack dough into balls and flatten into cookies. bake 30 minutes, cool 5 minutes, bake 10 minutes, cool. 40 delicious cookies
22:19:03 <\oren\_> oh right. and oven temperature is 325 degrees F
22:19:28 <HackEgo> 2 ts Salt \ 1 ts Baking powder \ 1 c Milk \ 3/4 c Rum of sugar \ 1 c Mayonnaise \ 1 ts Cinnamon \ 1 tb Lemon juice \ 2 tb Butter \ 2 Cloves \ 1/2 c Chopped onion \ 1/4 c Freshly chopped onion \ 2 tb Canola oil \ 1 ts Salt \ 1/4 ts Ground cumin \ 1 ts Salt \ 1 c All-purpose flour \ Crumbled beef, cut in chili \ -or beef and peel
22:19:43 <fizzie> Well, that's just too many ingredients. Let's try again.
22:19:46 <HackEgo> gar, then pour over the onion and \ saute the milk into a 3-quart shallow baking dish. Add sugar and a \ green sauce to the warmed crumbled from the stove. \ Bring to a boil and add it to the mixing bowl. Serve ready; or carrots the chili \ out of the strawberry completely chopped. Makes 6 cups of ham of the \ hot cake in the center. Pinchier
22:20:09 <fizzie> "Add sugar and a green sauce to the warmed crumbled from the stove."
22:27:08 <\oren\_> don't ask me why but baking is always measured in Degrees Eff
22:28:08 <fizzie> It's always in degrees C over here.
22:30:32 <zzo38> Most stoves and recipes I have seen the temperature is always Fahrenheit, although there are a few that use Celsius; also some instructions on boxes and some ovens will specify both Celsius and Fahrenheit.
22:31:53 <fizzie> I'm guessing CA probably shares the oven market with US.
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00:51:44 <mniip> I accidentally a brainfuck compiler
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00:55:45 <mniip> I'll just leave this here
00:55:47 <mniip> >>>--[[->>+<<]+>>-]><<<[<<]<>>>[>>]>,+[->[-]<----------[++++++++++>>[-]>[-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[<<<<<[<<]<+>>>[>>]>>>-]<<<<<[<<]<[>>>+<<<-]>>>[[->>+<<]+>>--]+<[<[<<]<>>>[>>]>>>[-]>[-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[<<<<<[<<]<+>>>[>>]>>>-]<<<<<[<<]<[>>>+<<<-]>>>[[->>+<<]+>>--]+<-<[<<]<>>>[>>]>>>[-]>[-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[<<<<<[<<]<+>>>[>>]>>>-]<<<<<[<<]<[>>>+<<<-]>>>[[->>+<<]+>>--]+<]<[<<]<>>>[>>]>[>>[-]>[-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[<<<<<[<<]<+>>>[>>]>>>-]<<<<<
00:55:47 <mniip> [<<]<[>>>+<<<-]>>>[[->>+<<]+>>--]+<+<[<<]<>>>[>>]>-]>+<,----------]++++++++++>[->[-]>[-]<<[>>+<<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[<<<<<[<<]<+>>>[>>]>>>-]<<<<<[<<]<[>>>+<<<-]>>>[[->>+<<]+>>--]+<.<[<<]<>>>[>>]>>]<.,+]->[-]<[-]<<<[<<]<>>>[>>]><<[-]<[[-]<[-]<]
00:56:05 <mniip> moonythedwarf, no, the other kind of compiler
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00:57:22 <mniip> it *outputs* brainfuck
01:03:16 <mniip> here have some primes http://tcpst.net/o7fd
01:13:15 <mniip> it's a Haskell DSL
01:15:28 <mniip> it looks like this http://lpaste.net/raw/2494059308031934464
01:17:26 <mniip> var/vars allocates variables
01:17:31 <mniip> which can be local by the way
01:18:16 <mniip> most of the combinators you see there actually create local variables to do their jobs
01:19:38 <mniip> it's largely incomplete - I had plans to support multi-byte integers and unbounded arrays
01:20:58 <mniip> but the architecture is there
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03:44:56 <mniip> I said I accidentally
03:45:05 <mniip> you know that happens
03:49:51 <oerjan> `le/rn bimonthly//The word "bimonthly" has at least two meanings, although this wisdom only gives about half of one. No matter which expert you follow, you're 50% likely to misinterpret it, or doubly so, depending on the phase of the moon.
03:49:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'bimonthly': The word "bimonthly" has at least two meanings, although this wisdom only gives about half of one. No matter which expert you follow, you're 50% likely to misinterpret it, or doubly so, depending on the phase of the moon.
03:51:15 <HackEgo> mniip: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:52:30 <HackEgo> password of the month? ¯\(°_o)/¯
03:52:34 <HackEgo> The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones)
03:53:04 <HackEgo> 11251:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones) \ 11250:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs \ 11236:2017-11-04 <shachäf> learn The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts \ 11206:2017-10-01 <oerjän> learn Th
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06:31:40 <shachaf> the password is available for purchase, but it expires on the 1st, so you have to bimonthly to keep up
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07:21:41 <variable> I recently committed soemthing
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11:24:54 <int-e> . o O ( `learn The password of the month is early. )
11:27:32 <int-e> Of course I could pretend that we're anywhere on Earth.
11:28:19 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is early.
11:28:22 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is early.
11:29:21 <int-e> (Anywhere on Earth includes New Zealand, Fiji, and the Christmas Islands. Happy New Year to all folks living there...)
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16:15:48 <lambdabot> CYQB 311600Z 26011KT 240V310 30SM FEW050 FEW150 FEW230 M19/M26 A3005 RMK SC1AC1CI1 SC TR SLP187
16:18:55 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; echo *fac*
16:19:09 <HackEgo> Facebook is Taneb's face collection.
16:20:03 <HackEgo> Facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
16:25:38 <int-e> "MacOS X was patched to reenable two-factor authentication, you now need both username and password to log in."
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17:00:03 <ATMunn> what's the deal with the while . o O () thing here?
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17:08:55 <boily> int-e was the first person I saw thinking.
17:10:54 <FireFly> I tend to do them as ACTIONs
17:12:32 <fizzie> But int-e was indeed the first thinker, here: https://esolangs.org/logs/2005-12-04.html#ljc
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17:21:38 * oerjan biswats shachaf -----###
17:23:41 <oerjan> <int-e> `learn The password of the month is early. <-- scandalous!
17:23:56 -!- centinel has changed nick to ChickenFetishcci.
17:25:10 * oerjan goes by UTC for fairness :/
17:26:12 <HackEgo> 11291:2017-12-31 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is early. \ 11251:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs (but not time zones) \ 11250:2017-12-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is equally offensive to all beliefs \ 11236:2017-11-04 <shachäf> learn The password of the month i
17:26:53 <int-e> oerjan: the realization that New Year was a rolling phenomenon came first though.
17:26:57 <shachaf> oerjan: don't you mean ###-----### twh
17:27:51 <HackEgo> Sun Dec 31 17:26:38 UTC 2017
17:28:17 <shachaf> imo UTC for fairness isn't very fair when you live near UTC and i don't
17:28:31 <oerjan> i thought it was on new ... oh maybe that's just LANG
17:28:57 <oerjan> shachaf: it's an hour fairer than if i used local hth
17:30:23 <int-e> `cwlprits password
17:30:31 <HackEgo> int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän mromän oerjän oerjän oerjän mroman̈_
17:30:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: don't you mean ###-----### twh <-- you're assuming it's double that makes you 50% likely to be wrong hth
17:30:39 <int-e> hmm, which variant is the one that counts?
17:31:14 <HackEgo> The word "bimonthly" has at least two meanings, although this wisdom only gives about half of one. No matter which expert you follow, you're 50% likely to misinterpret it, or doubly so, depending on the phase of the moon.
17:31:15 <shachaf> oerjan: at least i'm taking a risk and assuming something hth
17:31:31 <oerjan> int-e: that's the wisdom addition that started this hth
17:31:59 <HackEgo> Mon Jan 1 02:30:47 KST 2018
17:32:07 * oerjan watches in horror as he and shachaf are transformed into donkeys
17:32:47 <oerjan> boily: he was assuming
17:33:07 <shachaf> int-e: One time I had to submit a thing that said it must be submitted by some deadline in a time zone of your choosing
17:33:27 <shachaf> So I used Baker Island, which is even in the US so how could they complain?
17:34:13 <int-e> shachaf: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zones/aoe
17:34:47 <int-e> using that "time zone" is standard practice for deadlines for conferences (at least those I'm aware of)
17:35:28 <boily> oerjan: always assume donkeys.
17:37:47 <int-e> ow. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/lattice.jpg
17:38:29 <int-e> (from the beginning of https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9075-latticehacks )
17:40:06 <shachaf> int-e: that is only a semilattice hth
17:40:24 <shachaf> (I suppose these are the other types of lattices.)
17:40:53 <int-e> (they mean integer lattices, not the algebraic structure)
17:41:31 * int-e has 27G of videos from the 34c3...
17:43:01 <boily> `le/rn lattice//Lattices are healthy ingredients that join your sandwiches together.
17:43:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'lattice': Lattices are healthy ingredients that join your sandwiches together.
17:43:10 <oerjan> int-e: there should be the dual "everywhere on earth" zone for when you want to reverse the blame...
17:46:27 <int-e> oerjan: fortunately it's just about 24h off from AoE, so you can just set the deadline a day earlier
17:49:09 <shachaf> It's more than 24 hours, though.
17:49:38 <shachaf> Anyway presumably someone who isn't setting the deadline might still want the dual.
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21:29:57 <HackEgo> 1/2:endofunctor//Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories. \ assembly//Assembly is a land of Segmentation Faults and insanity. \ sgeo//Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidence
21:30:02 <HackEgo> 2/2:d by his norn experiments. \ real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download//Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there. \ norrible//norrible isn't not horrible nor not horrible, but both.
21:36:12 <oerjan> bood new year's evenily
21:37:36 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Sun Dec 31 22:37:35 2017
21:38:28 <lambdabot> Local time for boily is Sun, 31 Dec 2017 16:38:26 -0500
21:38:44 <boily> not quite but almost completely like new year.
21:39:04 <boily> bonsœirjan! bonne année grand nez!
21:39:15 <oerjan> Ursala just got added to the Great Polyglot started by ais523, if anyone remembers that... https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/152233/
21:39:51 <boily> («bonne année grand nez» «pareillement grandes dents» is a nonsense rhyme people wish upon each other at midnight.)
21:40:04 <oerjan> (hm, either referent of "that", i guess.)
21:40:18 <boily> is Ursala an esolang or not? I still don't know.
21:41:40 <boily> okay, considering the ais523 code snippet, most definitely eso.
21:42:35 <oerjan> well ais523 didn't make it (at least not most of it), he made the challenge.
21:42:47 <oerjan> and there are many non-esolangs in it.
21:43:22 <oerjan> boily: to the words in the rhyme have meanings, even if the whole doesn't?
21:43:32 <oerjan> (well some do, obviously)
21:43:57 * oerjan forgetting to finish his pizza
21:44:31 <boily> «bonne année» is “happy new year”, and «pareillement» is “same to you“. everything else is childish playful rhyme.
21:50:08 <oerjan> in that case, Godt Snytt År to you!
21:51:22 <oerjan> hm i'd have thought that would have more google hits.
21:54:02 <oerjan> trying to correct my spelling when i already did once and am trying to look at the second page of hits isn't very wise, google.
21:54:14 <HackEgo> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
21:55:25 <lambdabot> *** "vise" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:55:25 <lambdabot> n 1: a holding device attached to a workbench; has two jaws to
21:55:25 <lambdabot> hold workpiece firmly in place [syn: {vise}, {bench vise}]
21:55:51 <fizzie> I was trying to think of a terrible wise/vise pun, but couldn't. Maybe someone else will oblige.
22:01:42 <oerjan> vises are scary and not wise to joke about hth
22:52:35 <int-e> craziness is starting
23:04:48 <fizzie> Happy old year, still.
23:06:16 <int-e> I'm hearing hundreds of euros going up in smoke
23:11:46 <shachaf> What are euros for, if not making loud noises and bright lights?
23:12:25 <int-e> good point, I should listen to some loud music
23:24:25 <int-e> @google 115792089210356248762697446949407573529996955224135760342422259061068512044369
23:24:26 <lambdabot> https://safecurves.cr.yp.to/base.html
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23:28:01 <fizzie> There's less fireworks here at new year than at that other firework-y night they've got.
23:29:02 <int-e> You mean the one that they made into a movie where they blew up the White House? :P
23:29:51 <fizzie> There's probably been many movies like that, so I don't know. Not if you mean the US one.
23:30:09 <int-e> (By building a model of it and turning it sideways, filming from above. I still find that detail interesting.)
23:30:55 <int-e> "Independence Day" is what I'm talking about.
23:31:21 <int-e> I don't know what other occasion for fireworks the US has.
23:31:29 <fizzie> I'm not in the US, though.
23:31:35 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night is what I meant.
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23:33:30 <int-e> (And hmm, never heard about it? Though it does explain why Guy Fawkes masks are so common...)
23:35:15 <fizzie> They've still got a big fireworks thing going on in central London (and probably elsewhere in UK as well) tonight, but it's not the sort of constant flashing and banging as it is on that other night.
23:36:20 <fizzie> In Finland you're only legally allowed to do (amateur) fireworks from 6pm Dec 31st to something-am Jan 1st.
23:39:27 <shachaf> I heard England doesn't even do fireworks for independence day.
23:40:54 <fizzie> There were some on the US independence day, actually, but I think those were likely by US people who've moved here.
23:42:02 <shachaf> I guess there are a lot of countries that celebrate independence from the UK
23:43:29 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have_gained_independence_from_the_United_Kingdom
23:45:13 <zzo38> What I read somewhere is someone wrote a story, where they claimed that Shakespeare was the king of England, and because this was before the Declaration of Independence, that means he was the king of the whole world.
23:51:15 <lambdabot> *** "peccable" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:51:15 <lambdabot> adj 1: liable to sin; "a frail and peccable mortal"- Sir Walter
23:51:15 <lambdabot> Scott [syn: {peccable}, {peccant}]
23:51:33 <int-e> fizzie: hmm, interestingly fireworks are only permitted inside cities if there's a special exception by the muncipality, and generally there isn't any. so I guess what I've been hearing was mostly technically illegal (some of it will have been officially registered events)
23:51:38 <lambdabot> *** "pectoral" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:51:39 <lambdabot> adj 1: of or relating to the chest or thorax; "pectoral organ"
23:51:39 <lambdabot> n 1: either of two large muscles of the chest [syn: {pectoral},
23:51:47 <fizzie> I thought it was short for that.
23:52:30 <int-e> (speaking of Austria)
23:52:34 <fizzie> int-e: In Finland they've started forbidding them in cities too, or at least restricting to set locations.
23:55:50 <alercah> fizzie: fireworks for independence day in the UK seems ironic
23:56:50 <int-e> alercah: except if they're ICBMs aimed at Boston.
23:57:10 <fizzie> It's been a while, maybe there's less hard feelings by now.
23:57:28 <fizzie> I hear there's a "special relationship" now.
23:59:02 <int-e> heh. "The beauty about adaptive [cryptographic] attacks is that they look exactly like Hollywood." (random bits flipping all over and stabilizing one by one)
23:59:38 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
23:59:41 <int-e> ( https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9021-squeezing_a_key_through_a_carry_bit now)
23:59:43 <idris-bot> 1 | https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9021-squeezing_a_key_through_a_carry_bit now)
23:59:43 <idris-bot> unexpected Operator without known fixity: ://