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00:38:22 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: that should be a quiet rather than a ban though, just on principle <-- what principle i'm not very good at this
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01:12:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Potat * New user account
01:29:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89243&oldid=89210 * Potat * (+150) add myself to this list
01:30:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89244&oldid=89243 * Potat * (-13)
01:34:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89245&oldid=89244 * Potat * (+67)
01:35:22 <esolangs> [[User:Potat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89246 * Potat * (+41) Created page with "I want to add a new language: YoptaScript"
01:36:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89247&oldid=89232 * Potat * (+18) added YoptaScript
01:38:18 <esolangs> [[YoptaScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89248 * Potat * (+16) template
01:41:03 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89249&oldid=89138 * PixelatedStarfish * (-19) /* Operation Codes */
04:05:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ch44d]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89250 * Ch44d * (+0) make talk
04:10:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ch44d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89251&oldid=89250 * Ch44d * (+208) add contact info
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10:26:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ManiPM * New user account
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10:43:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89252&oldid=89245 * ManiPM * (+224) /* Introductions */
10:44:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89253&oldid=89252 * ManiPM * (+1) /* Introductions */
10:53:07 <esolangs> [[User:ManiPM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89254 * ManiPM * (+198) Created page with "Hello, Everyone! I'm a semi-knows-what-he-is-doing programmer! When I found out about esoteric languages, I was desperate to make my one ones. I hope you ''enjoy'' programm..."
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11:31:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pandaqwanda * New user account
11:34:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89255&oldid=89253 * Pandaqwanda * (+266)
11:37:15 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89256 * Pandaqwanda * (+85) Created page with "<span style="border: 5px solid orange; color: orange;"><b><big>Hello</big></b></span>"
11:39:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89257 * Pandaqwanda * (+124) Created page with "This is a talk page for [[User:Pandaqwanda|<b style="border: 5px solid orange; color: orange;"><big>Pandaqwanda</big></b>]]."
11:39:19 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89258&oldid=89256 * Pandaqwanda * (+1)
11:44:13 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89259 * ManiPM * (+536) Created page with "'''Fun Craft''' is a [[Stack|Stack-Based]], semi-original, [[Esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:ManiPM]], just because he thought maybe creating a language based o..."
11:49:48 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89260&oldid=89259 * ManiPM * (+176)
12:03:10 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89261&oldid=87591 * Pandaqwanda * (+168) /* Examples */
12:03:58 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89262&oldid=89261 * Pandaqwanda * (+2)
12:20:12 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89263&oldid=89260 * ManiPM * (+2177)
12:21:10 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89264&oldid=89263 * ManiPM * (+13)
12:23:16 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89265&oldid=89264 * ManiPM * (+146) /* Examples */
12:29:31 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89266&oldid=89265 * ManiPM * (+93)
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13:29:03 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1247.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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13:47:19 <b_jonas> wow, this magical javascript numeric input box is so great! I type 4000, then change my mind and go the beginning, delete the first character and type 5 to change the number to 5000, and guess what, the field contains 5 now, because when it contained 000 the script quickly changed the value to 0 and put the cursor at the end. so convenient! almost as good as those online payment forms that break the
13:47:25 <b_jonas> bank card number to multiple small forms of four digits each, and if I make a typo in the last digit in the group of four, I can't delete it because whenever I try to select the field, the javascript forcibly throws my focus to the next field because that field is full.
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13:49:12 <int-e> b_jonas: obviously you need to change your workflow to first insert 5 and then delete the 1
13:49:35 <int-e> (and then enjoy the magic of maximum input lengths)
13:50:29 <b_jonas> or that other online payment form that has the month and year of the bank card expiry in separate fields, when I enter two digits for the month it sends my focus to the year but does that slowly, so if I type the month then year as four digits then if I'm slow the year is lost; but if I type the month then a tab then the year then if I'm slow the year may go to the wrong field
13:51:12 <b_jonas> the sad part is that this webpage got redesigned and it used to be worse, and I think it's an overall improvement despite this numeric input field
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13:52:36 <b_jonas> it used to have a google captcha thing on it that often refused to work from Firefox on debian no matter how many times I retried, so I used Konqueror as a workaround
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13:54:07 <b_jonas> this is the website of the Vodafone mobile phone provider for buying pre-payment for a mobile phone account, and the number input field is the amount in HUF. luckily they aren't their own payment provider, they redirect to a relatively sane payment provider page.
13:56:28 <b_jonas> ok, I may have spoken early, because I haven't managed to successfully buy pre-payed credit on this redesigned website yet
13:58:48 <b_jonas> success! I just mistyped something the previous time
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15:11:00 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89267&oldid=89184 * Not applicable * (+1493)
15:17:45 <HackEso> smlist 533: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
15:21:05 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89268&oldid=89267 * Not applicable * (+305) /* Filter */ add desc
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15:29:28 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89269&oldid=89268 * Not applicable * (+758) mmmmmmm tofu
15:32:16 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89270&oldid=89269 * Not applicable * (+64) temporary tofu and tofu are separate ops
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18:05:35 <b_jonas> the A Games Done Quick games list is out, event is 2022-01-09/2022-01-16
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18:44:20 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89271&oldid=89270 * Not applicable * (+363) solar panel
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19:26:49 <esolangs> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89272&oldid=88427 * CatCatDeluxe * (-2) what was that square bracket doing there
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20:01:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Treeplate * New user account
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20:04:43 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89273&oldid=89271 * Not applicable * (+82) /* Solar panels */
20:08:28 <b_jonas> `slashlearn password The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer
20:08:29 <HackEso> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
20:08:34 <b_jonas> `slashlearn password//The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer
20:08:38 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer
20:09:07 <HackEso> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, \ they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
20:09:13 <b_jonas> `slashlearn password//The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer.
20:09:17 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer.
20:10:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89274&oldid=89255 * Treeplate * (+172) adding intro
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20:15:25 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89275&oldid=89273 * Not applicable * (+394) better examples
20:26:22 <esolangs> [[Sunny morning]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89276&oldid=71169 * Treeplate * (+467) Add 'H' output example
20:26:23 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89277&oldid=89275 * Not applicable * (+532) intro
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22:47:36 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89278&oldid=89166 * PixelatedStarfish * (+5) /* Heck */
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23:01:02 <esolangs> [[E]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89279&oldid=60828 * Corbin * (+85) Disambiguate with a link to WP.
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23:55:07 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89280&oldid=89172 * Ch44d * (+284) Document undocumented rule tu.
23:56:20 <zzo38> One possible way to avoid that and other annoyances might be to disable change events until the field is unfocused or a button is selected.
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00:12:42 <oerjan> <b_jonas> wow, this magical javascript numeric input box is so great! <-- were you changing payment limits too, like it did the other day?
00:12:54 <oerjan> i noticed the same effect
00:14:44 <oerjan> i don't think it put the cursor at the end, so i ended up with 50 or so.
00:15:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: not payment limits (see later in the backscroll), and it definitely put the cursor at the end too
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01:11:23 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89281&oldid=89217 * PixelatedStarfish * (+152)
01:11:44 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89282&oldid=89281 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9) /* Truth Machine */
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02:47:13 <nakilon> how about apologizing for repetitive false accusation and defamation of my persona? you are starting politics in this channel and then blatantly lie that it is me who is doing that; both times it was another person -- it's clearly seen in logs, but you repeat the lies about me again and again
02:48:46 <nakilon> you are bringing in politics, you are in fact trolling, you are even insulting me with cursing words, and doing it again and again you pollute the channel and make people believe that your lies are true ,just by continuing doing it and muting me so to I won't prove that you are lying
02:49:04 <imode> wait, you got unbanned?
02:50:10 <nakilon> this is a plain discrimination and op privilege abuse; violation of multiple rules of the network and even the Sweden laws that this network is following
02:51:21 <imode> oh you were never banned properly.
02:51:28 <imode> oerjan: methinks you got the ban mask wrong.
02:51:34 <Corbin> I shouldn't have started that previous politics discussion, I suppose.
02:51:49 <nakilon> the small team of privilege abusing ops behave in an absolutely disrespectfull and discriminating manner
02:52:06 <imode> should've been *!*@user/nakilon
02:53:36 <zzo38> I don't know what are the Swedish laws; I live in Canada.
02:54:01 <nakilon> ops are keeping this channel hateful and encouraging discrimination, repetitively doing trolling, flaming and false accusations of me just because on their personal hate towards my ethnic belonging
02:54:11 <imode> shut the fuck up you absolute insufferable drama queen.
02:54:16 <imode> go to #libera and get k-lined.
02:54:35 <imode> this is not your personal scratch-and-piss post.
02:54:45 <imode> nobody in here is interested in engaging with you.
02:55:02 <imode> and according to network policy, ban evasion is absolutely worth of op intervention.
02:55:39 <nakilon> hypocritically flaming, expressing their hate, pushing political propaganda, fakes, rumors and defamating me and people I'm associated with
02:55:52 <imode> oh no, cry about it.
02:55:59 <imode> go get the police.
02:56:07 <imode> sue us or something.
02:56:16 <imode> get so angry you put a hole through your monitor.
02:56:41 <nakilon> channel topic says "Welcome" and even wiki probably says that this channel is "friendly" or something like that but it's full of hate produced by just 2-3 persons
02:56:50 <imode> lmao so fuckin leave.
02:57:25 <imode> you russians are so typical. you spit and spout and threaten and anguish over any perceived character attack, well let me make this clear to you: you are a bad person.
02:57:35 <imode> there is no authority to appeal to, you've already been banned and are evading.
02:57:51 <imode> so bitch and whine louder, nobody fucking cares.
02:58:04 <imode> grow some thick skin and shut your fucking face hole.
02:58:18 <nakilon> also repetitive false accusation that I lie
02:58:39 <nakilon> with following mute to make me unable to tell that I don't
02:59:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:59:35 <nakilon> if this channel is a personal house of 2-3 hatefull persons write it in the topic
02:59:50 <imode> kicking him would verify that it works as well.
02:59:55 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!nakilon@user/nakilon.
02:59:58 <nakilon> all accusations towards me are false
03:00:00 <Corbin> nakilon: On one hand, it sounds like your personal circumstances are very stressful and demanding right now; I don't envy you. OTOH, I think that you've overstated the rudeness; you and your associates have been defamed!?
03:00:09 <imode> Corbin: don't bother engaging, I implore you.
03:00:10 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@/user/nakilon.
03:00:14 -!- oerjan has kicked nakilon nakilon.
03:00:29 <imode> been waiting for that since that nutter joined.
03:00:36 <Corbin> imode: Okay. Just consider this: There's no such thing as a good person. After you cool off, please reread the scrollback and consider how you would feel if you were to talk to your past self.
03:00:50 <imode> Corbin: don't know if you've been around but they're a known troll.
03:01:20 <Corbin> imode: Ah, of course, because *they* were known to be a troll, *you* don't have to reread your scrollback and consider your actions~
03:01:22 <oerjan> imode: you are also borderline in my opinion
03:01:40 <imode> oerjan: meh. I was fed up with him.
03:01:55 <imode> I am not tolerant to intolerant people.
03:02:12 <imode> I've banned him from other channels for trying to race bait people.
03:02:18 <imode> and for saying some unsavory things about jews.
03:02:21 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
03:08:25 <oerjan> <nakilon> hypocritically flaming, expressing their hate, pushing political propaganda, fakes, rumors and defamating me and people I'm associated with <-- wow, talk about talking about himself :P
03:08:54 <imode> that's why I haven't been present lately. surprised it took this long.
03:09:52 <imode> the excessive political talk, the livejournal-like self-discussion about said talk.
03:10:20 <imode> there weren't discussions, there was him ranting with an interjection that was shut down.
03:11:03 <oerjan> <imode> you russians are so typical. <-- i want it on the record that i have absolutely no problems with the _other_ russian regular on this channel.
03:11:45 <imode> _neither do I_. however, I've noticed that some subset of the russian population _acts like that_. I have a russian colleague that moved to the US and he's an absolute treat.
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03:20:25 * oerjan looks slightly nervously at the dragon
03:20:43 <imode> nakilon is complaining in #libera to the staff.
03:20:54 <oerjan> i suspected something like that yeah
03:21:18 <HackEso> The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer.
03:21:25 <pikhq> they did indicate with their last ban evasion message batch that they'd do so
03:26:37 <oerjan> imode: so many events everywhere recently just lampshading to me how most humans live in their own little reality bubbles and get offended when it's pierced. i'm sure i must have my own too.
03:27:22 <oerjan> (i'm not sure "most" shouldn't be "absolutely all")
03:27:33 <int-e> Just don't try to validate your insecurities on random IRC channels and you'll be fine.
03:28:12 <imode> solid advice for life, but I imagine those that do don't have another outlet.
03:28:24 <imode> oerjan: I definitely live in mine, everybody has their own context.
03:28:30 <pikhq> int-e: i mean i did for quite some time and it turned out okay
03:28:32 <imode> I just don't go running to the staff when I'm asked to leave.
03:29:02 <imode> pikhq: you had supportive people I imagine.
03:29:15 <int-e> pikhq: maybe you picked your outlets somewhat more strategically :P
03:29:25 <int-e> eh, I'm oversimplifying anyway
03:29:40 <int-e> there's a lot to be said for the ability to back off
03:29:42 <pikhq> i mean i managed to find _romantic partners_ on irc, i dont think im typical
03:29:52 <imode> you wouldn't be alone in that, tbf.
03:31:17 <int-e> oerjan: anyway thanks for stepping in
03:32:00 <pikhq> i seem to recall nakilon was one of the people that went off on a random transphobic tirade a while back, too...
03:32:23 <imode> wouldn't surprise me, I've heard similar bouts from him.
03:34:29 <int-e> Heh... anyone remember the swamp dragons from Discworld that explode when exposed to their own mirror image...
03:35:16 <oerjan> hum i remember some swamp dragons but not the part about exploding
03:35:20 <fizzie> Well, in the interests of having all the op opinions for the public record... while I might be a bit on the fence on that last ban's "fairness" (given that someone else did arguably "start" it), I'm not disagreeing with the overall notion that those rants are unwelcome, or arguing that we should keep ignoring them forever.
03:35:26 <fizzie> (I've not been following closely.)
03:35:32 <fizzie> I just think it's a shame, because there *was* clearly actual esolangs content in there, which I think isn't the case for the majority of (the few) people we ban.
03:36:22 <imode> he couldn't separate the political junk from the esolangs junk.
03:38:12 <imode> the diagram of knobheads and programmers is two overlapping circles, I know because I'm one of them. but I don't drag political stuff in here.
03:42:23 <fizzie> I remember some swamp dragons from I think Feet of Clay.
03:44:54 <oerjan> they were sybil's dragons, as i recall.
03:45:05 <oerjan> (just looked up her name)
03:45:41 <oerjan> that rocket powered one that led away the big one
03:45:50 <int-e> Yes, Sybil operates a sanctuary for the things
03:46:10 * int-e forgot what it's called though
03:46:51 <fizzie> I had to look up the book title by searching for "vimes heraldry" because I only remembered it was the same book as where that subplot was.
03:49:38 <oerjan> fizzie: after being tempted to argue with nakilon about whether it was "fair", i realized that such arguing itself was a troll trap. which is why i retroactively changed the reason into just generally trolling.
03:52:59 <oerjan> my last words to him in private were "you know what? it doesn't matter. you are still an annoying troll."
03:53:20 <int-e> dirty secret of moderation: effective moderation doesn't have to be fair (it's more about identifying and removing the nexus of trouble), and trying to be fair may actually have adverse effects (rule lawyering)
03:53:33 <imode> oerjan: treat me as a canary, I sniff that shit out right away. :P
03:54:10 <oerjan> imode: well intellectually i knew this already, i just had to experience it.
03:56:09 <fizzie> I don't know what the definition of "trolling" is, but I feel like it involves an element of insincerity, and I did think those were just sincere beliefs they had about how the world really is, and frustration on how nobody here "gets it". But maybe it's more about the pattern of behaviour instead.
03:56:32 <oerjan> trolling modulo poe's law
03:57:06 <imode> it's the pattern of behavior. it evolved from being insincere to "staying in place as long as possible by weaseling around moderation".
03:57:45 <imode> "how long can I use the people around me against themselves to stay here and keep doing what I'm doing"
03:57:54 <imode> hence the defamation comments, etc.
03:59:21 <imode> making yourself the victim and saying outlandish shit takes people aback. "wait, what? I'm not doing X.." "YOU'RE DOING X! I KNOW IT! YOU'RE DISHONEST HORRIBLE RACIST..." etc.
03:59:32 <imode> and that's a tactic to keep them there.
04:00:03 <imode> folks like that prey on the civility of others. I am not civil. your ass gets the boot if I see that shit.
04:00:29 <int-e> A proper troll could do better.
04:00:56 <imode> I feel like nakilon is a proper troll. he stayed here for long enough.
04:00:58 <oerjan> i am civil, usually. but i am somewhat immune to obviously hypocritical arguments.
04:01:15 <int-e> (I don't think of nakilon as a troll. But I don't have a term for this behavior, apart from projection, which is too generic.)
04:01:16 <imode> the asymmetry of bullshit, oerjan. that's the tactic.
04:01:31 <imode> throw enough out and you'll be scrambling to address it all.
04:01:51 <oerjan> ah yes the less wrongers had a name for that
04:01:52 <imode> it's easier to say obviously wrong/invalid shit than to disprove/address it.
04:01:57 <int-e> Then again my definition of a troll is heavily colored by http://criticalmiss.com/issue9/troll1.html
04:02:49 <imode> yeah that gets people fighting against themselves.
04:04:47 <int-e> Hmm, the November Ponder This! is a continuation to the October one and still very easy.
04:05:21 <int-e> Oh, no exclamation mark? I thought it had one... maybe it was dropped. Or my memory is deceiving me, always a possibility.
04:14:35 <fizzie> I somehow got reminded of #linux.fi of IRCnet, a channel that (in my circles, anyway) was famous for unapproachability alone. I think I lasted for less than a week before getting kicked out, the one time I tried to see what it was like.
04:15:12 <fizzie> (It may have changed since then, this was at least 20 years ago.)
04:24:49 <imode> being unapproachable is different from being tolerant of intolerance.
04:25:12 <imode> the former is being generally hostile, the latter is allowing specifically hostile people in.
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05:26:55 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89283&oldid=89282 * PixelatedStarfish * (+74) /* Program Examples */
05:27:11 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89284&oldid=89283 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Random Number (1-10) */
05:27:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Roc0ast3r * New user account
05:30:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89285&oldid=89274 * Roc0ast3r * (+237) /* Introductions */
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08:06:00 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89286&oldid=89266 * ManiPM * (+32) /* Interpreter in Java */
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08:21:31 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89287&oldid=89286 * ManiPM * (+66)
08:28:17 <esolangs> [[Fun Craft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89288&oldid=89287 * ManiPM * (+65)
08:31:40 <HackEso> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
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08:33:26 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: that should be a quiet rather than a ban though, just on principle <-- what principle i'm not very good at this" => the principle that we don't restrict the channel to members because we're not discussing our secrets here, so anyone is allowed to listen. and he probably won't abuse being quieted but unbanned.
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10:18:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ngoctnq * New user account
10:23:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89289&oldid=89285 * Ngoctnq * (+163)
10:28:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89290&oldid=89289 * Ngoctnq * (-4) alright, I might be dumb
10:32:56 <esolangs> [[Hanoi Love]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89291&oldid=88904 * Ngoctnq * (+105) /* External resources */
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16:01:11 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89292&oldid=89277 * Not applicable * (+2) PLEASE give me a better name for "solar panels"
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17:10:49 <arseniiv> how unfortunate is to be given a banned IP by your ISP
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19:32:22 <zzo38> Now I defined another bit of the control flag of GLOGG container format, which is set if the stream needs to be discarded by anything that edits/splices it, due to it being sensitive to the structure of the file. (For example, it might be set if this stream is a key frame index for the other streams.)
19:33:49 <zzo38> (Now there are three unused bits.)
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21:08:30 <esolangs> [[Counting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89293&oldid=70401 * Fmbalbuena * (-29) Removed one unnecessary line (Swap() is in pseudo-code ...)
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22:33:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnonymousStackOverflow * New user account
22:37:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89294&oldid=89290 * AnonymousStackOverflow * (+319) introduced myself
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00:13:31 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89295&oldid=89284 * PixelatedStarfish * (+92)
00:13:52 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89296&oldid=89295 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* External Links */
00:14:14 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89297&oldid=89278 * PixelatedStarfish * (-67) /* Unimplemented Languages */
00:14:38 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89298&oldid=89297 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* Implemented Languages */
00:15:00 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89299&oldid=89298 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Unimplemented Languages */
00:15:22 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89300&oldid=89299 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* Nondescript */
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00:25:27 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89301&oldid=89292 * Not applicable * (+232) fix mathjax
00:25:36 <Kit> hey look its me
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00:43:51 <fizzie> I'm just happy the math works at all, I seem to recall setting it up was a little... vague.
00:51:11 <fizzie> (In particular, it's using the WikiMedia Mathoid service, which I couldn't really find a clear statement on whether it's okay or not, or if you should always be running your own Mathoid server, which seemed like a pretty big hassle.)
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02:06:50 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89302&oldid=89296 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* External Links */
02:06:58 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89303&oldid=89302 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* External Links */
02:07:45 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89304&oldid=89300 * PixelatedStarfish * (+56) /* Nondescript */
02:07:56 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89305&oldid=89304 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Nondescript */
02:11:17 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89306&oldid=89303 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Truth Machine */
02:11:31 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89307&oldid=89306 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello World */
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03:16:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89308&oldid=89247 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* N */
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05:53:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LegendaryFartMaster * New user account
06:00:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89309&oldid=89294 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+53)
06:02:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89310&oldid=89309 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+98)
06:02:42 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89311&oldid=87167 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+12) /* Arithmetic */ Corrected the order of operands for arithmetic operators.
06:12:44 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89312&oldid=89311 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+160) Updated Heap Access description, correcting order of operands, and explaining in a little more detail.
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06:53:04 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89313&oldid=89223 * Squidmanescape * (+72)
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07:17:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:LegendaryFartMaster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89314 * LegendaryFartMaster * (+223) Created page with "Hello! I'm a professional software engineer, who doesnt get enough coding-high from my work alone. I program primarily in Scala, which is an amazing language to write inte..."
07:21:21 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89315&oldid=89313 * Squidmanescape * (+105)
07:22:27 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89316&oldid=89315 * Squidmanescape * (-5)
07:22:40 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89317&oldid=89316 * Squidmanescape * (-1)
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07:42:44 <esolangs> [[User:ManiPM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89319&oldid=89254 * ManiPM * (+78)
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07:58:19 <esolangs> [[BS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89320&oldid=54227 * Corbin * (+414) Link to presentation on YT, add infobox and categories, redlink related languages, and clean up code snippet.
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10:32:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vinetwigs * New user account
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11:07:50 <tromp> int-e: can you think of a function to convert "SK numerals" S^n K into Church numerals?
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11:42:14 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89321 * PixelatedStarfish * (+71) Created page with "[[BrainSoup]] is a language that translates any bf equivalents into bf."
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13:20:35 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89322&oldid=89321 * PixelatedStarfish * (+245)
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13:40:43 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89323&oldid=89322 * PixelatedStarfish * (+941)
13:42:18 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89324&oldid=89323 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
13:48:47 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89325&oldid=89324 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
13:50:36 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89326&oldid=89325 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9)
13:50:43 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda/Pandaqwanda's sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89327 * Pandaqwanda * (+127) Created page with "This is a sandbox page for [[User:Pandaqwanda|<b style="border: 5px solid orange; color: orange;"><big>Pandaqwanda</big></b>]]."
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14:09:56 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89328&oldid=89258 * Pandaqwanda * (+104)
14:10:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89329&oldid=89257 * Pandaqwanda * (+109)
14:12:50 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda/Pandaqwanda's sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89330&oldid=89327 * Pandaqwanda * (+114)
14:14:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda/Pandaqwanda's sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89331 * Pandaqwanda * (+274) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<b style="border: 5px solid orange; color: orange;">Tak:<big>Pandaqwanda</big>'s sandbox</b>}} <br>This is a talk page for User:Pandaqwanda/Pandaqwanda's_..."
14:25:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ataberk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89332 * Pandaqwanda * (+235) Created page with "Hello <span style="color:skyblue;">Ataberk</span>, I'm <span style="color:deepPink;">YouYou</span> from Discord. How's it doing? <br> - ~~~~ <br>"
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15:53:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89333&oldid=88994 * Pandaqwanda * (+124)
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16:12:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda/pixeLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89334 * Pandaqwanda * (+340) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<b style="border: 5px solid olive; color:olive;">Talk:<big>pixeLang</big></b>}} <br>This is a talk page for <span style="border: 5px solid olive; color:oliv..."
16:12:51 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda/pixeLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89335 * Pandaqwanda * (+796) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<b style="border: 5px solid olive; color:olive;"><big>pixeLang</big></b>}} <br><span style="border: 5px solid olive; color:olive;"><b><big>pixeLang</big></b..."
16:13:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda/pixeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89336&oldid=89334 * Pandaqwanda * (+30)
16:15:06 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89337&oldid=89328 * Pandaqwanda * (+1583)
16:16:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Pandaqwanda/qwandalang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89338 * Pandaqwanda * (+416) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=<b style="border: 5px solid black; color:black;">Talk:<big>qwandalang</big></b>}} <br>This is a talk page for User:Pandaqwanda/qwandalang|<span style="bor..."
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16:52:09 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89339&oldid=88059 * Pandaqwanda * (+206) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
17:05:22 <tromp> int-e: i found some very elegant functions for pred and iszero that can do it
17:06:02 <tromp> pred is even simpler than for church numerals
17:11:54 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89340&oldid=89339 * Pandaqwanda * (+653) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
17:16:51 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89341&oldid=88273 * Pandaqwanda * (+118)
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17:54:32 <arseniiv> tromp: IIRC pred for Church numerals is monstrous but that’s fixed when moving to Church—Scott, they recurse providing both f(n−1) as Church ones do and n−1 as Scott ones do, so we can use that last plain n−1 for simplest pred in the world
17:56:49 <arseniiv> of course CS is more complex than C or S alone but I’d think that’s not a bit of complexity to shy from, for instance I have seen the same way in usual formulations of primitive recursive framework, where prim. recursion operator provides both f(n−1) and n−1 in recursive step
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18:31:17 <Corbin> This inspired me to look at what Cammy does. I have (comp (pr (comp zero (pair id id)) (comp fst (pair succ id))) snd) for pred. The outside is (comp (pr X F) snd); it's taking the right-hand side of a pair made with primitive recursion.
18:32:53 <Corbin> The inner arrows are \x.(0,0) and \(x,y).(succ x,x) passing a pair of nats through the recursion. The left-hand side of the pair is always n, and the right-hand side is effectively n-1.
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18:49:49 <tromp> i wouldn't call λn.λf.λx.n(λg.λh.h(g f))(λu.x)(λu.u) monstrous...
18:51:03 <Corbin> Ow. Lots of lambdas hurt my head. But I bet that lots of pointfree code hurts everybody else's head, so I shouldn't complain.
18:51:21 <imode> lots of indirection hurts the head.
18:51:32 <imode> because we strain our necks to keep track of the wires.
18:51:38 <Corbin> The variable names help a lot. Seeing `\nfx.` at the beginning is a clue.
18:53:04 <tromp> the cute thing about SK-numerals is that pred 0 gives you a genuine -1. such that succ -1 is 0 again...
18:53:46 <tromp> but the iszero test only works on nonnegative SK-numerals
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19:15:44 <Yes> hello everyone
19:15:49 <Yes> how's it going
19:16:09 <Corbin> Trying to figure out why Lilypond won't draw my staves.
19:16:46 <Corbin> Lilypond is a music typesetter. For some reason, it's not drawing all of the staves of music notation. It's drawing the title and the footer and the chords, but not the notes.
19:17:05 <Yes> i'm fine, what about you?
19:17:44 <b_jonas> Corbin: so it's also not drawing anything that would go on the staffs, like the notes and bars?
19:18:02 <Corbin> I'm trying to get Lilypond to draw music files that I haven't touched in nearly a decade. Past Corbin did not leave any notes, which is typical.
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19:18:41 <Corbin> b_jonas: Exactly, yes. I figure that the header layout has changed, and now I have to explicitly include stuff that used to be implicit.
19:27:02 <Corbin> Yep, removing about half the header causes everything to work. Just gotta read the manual and see exactly how to fix it up, but I guess I'm in business.
19:27:18 <Corbin> Lilypond is so simple when it works, but it's so brittle and breaks easily. Just like playing music, I guess~
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21:10:49 <riv> a non fungeoid token language
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05:00:37 <int-e> tromp: Ah, Sx(Kz)y = xyz is kind of neat
05:27:34 <int-e> tromp: F = \x\y.y; toChurch = \n\f\z. let A = \p. p (\a\b\_\p. p a (f b)) z in n A A F;
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05:43:27 <int-e> based on S x A B = x B (A B), so if A, B, and A B are all similar then this gives us a nice recursion) and the syntactic accident <F,X> <F,Y> = <F,Y> F X = F F Y X so we can use pairs <F,_> for A, B and let F F Y X reduce to some <F,Z> to fulfil the shape requirement. The concrete instance uses Z = f Y.
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07:08:22 <int-e> Oh wow, I messed up my definition of K, wow. n A A F should be n A (A A) F instead.
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07:19:58 <int-e> (the other one gives the predecessor instead which is kind of neat)
07:21:46 <tromp> int-e: that's really cool! and doesn't even need recursion.
07:22:12 <tromp> mine did: to_church = \toc\n. iszero n C0 (C_succ (to_church (pred n)))
07:22:44 <tromp> that should be to_church = \n. iszero n C0 (C_succ (to_church (pred n)))
07:23:59 <tromp> iszero = \n. n F I S K
07:24:34 <tromp> pred = \n\x\y.n (K y) x
07:25:38 <int-e> yeah it's always nice to get the duplication that recursion requires for free
07:29:17 <tromp> hmm, i thought yours would be smaller in CL size
07:29:50 <int-e> I'm only looking at BLC sizes
07:30:08 <int-e> CL size is too volatile and usually bigger anyway
07:31:06 <int-e> to_church = \n\f\z. let tc = \n. isZero_ n z (f (tc (pred_ n))) in tc n; is *a bit* smaller in BLC than the C0/C_succ thing.
07:31:28 <int-e> sorry, I renamed iszero and pred to fit my test file
07:32:50 <int-e> With CL, that's probably not true... because adding and using extra arguments is so expensive.
07:33:51 <tromp> sometimes hand optimized bracket abstraction can improve things
07:34:03 <int-e> tromp: So in that spirit, toChurch = \n. let A = \p. p (\a\b\_\p. p a (C_succ b)) C0 in n A (A A) F may be better for CL.
07:34:57 <tromp> oh yes, much shorter
07:38:12 <tromp> i came across these numerals in Wolfram's book on combinators
07:38:19 <int-e> is it worth to manually replace n A (A A) by S n A A?
07:38:41 <tromp> https://www.wolfram-media.com/products/combinators-a-centennial-view.html
07:39:22 <int-e> (that looks like a rare pattern so I doubt you'd implement it in an automatic converter)
07:40:04 <tromp> no, that S n A A doesn't make a difference
07:41:20 <int-e> Ah, right... bracket abstraction will act the same either way.
07:41:45 <tromp> Stephen Wolfram only came up with a size 181 combinator for to_church
07:41:49 <int-e> \A. n A (A A) -> S n I
07:42:24 <tromp> apparently based on applying n to Church numerals 2 and 3
07:43:33 <tromp> that's S n A, not S n I ?!
07:46:33 <tromp> i wonder if these should be called SK numerals or Fibonacci numerals
07:46:41 <int-e> Oh, right, I stopped too early. It'll be S n (S I I), vs. \A. S n A A = S (S n) I. So it's a bit unclear which is better.
07:47:16 <tromp> since they satisfy (n+2) x y = (n x y) ((n+1) x y)
07:47:52 <int-e> (you have two I's in the former, but n is at a deeper depth in the latter.)
07:48:30 <int-e> Yeah they do have a Fibonacci vibe.
07:48:55 <tromp> the number of y's in n x y is Fibonacci(n)
07:49:17 <tromp> this just replaces sum in the recurrence by application
07:49:20 <int-e> Already visible in S x A B = x B (A B)
07:51:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89351&oldid=89308 * Elmusfire * (+16) Added new language
07:52:17 <esolangs> [[Rrreplace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89352 * Elmusfire * (+6648) rrreplace is an esoteric language that uses string substitution in a functional way.
07:53:53 <esolangs> [[Rrreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89353&oldid=89352 * Elmusfire * (+1) typo
07:57:38 <int-e> tromp: Hmm, I don't think I have you abstraction elimination code... what sizes do you get for to_church and toChurch?
07:58:35 <tromp> well, i have to manually adjust for the SK Y combinator of size 12:(
07:58:50 <int-e> or does `blc comb` mostly do it?
07:59:08 <tromp> then my to_church comes out at 69
08:00:27 <tromp> i actually use ./blc bcl and divide output length by 3
08:01:14 <int-e> ah, we're just counting combinators.
08:01:55 <tromp> yes, but we could count bits as well. which is nearly purely linear
08:02:19 <int-e> and I need to use the right `succ` too
08:02:37 <tromp> the newline at the end of bcl output bumps that right up to 3n
08:02:50 <int-e> (\n\f\x. n f (f x) is worse than \n\f\x. f (n f x) in CL)
08:03:18 <tromp> yes, i use C_succ = \n\f\x.f (n f x);
08:03:47 <int-e> bcl just doesn't care
08:04:48 <int-e> I guess I should prefer \n\f\x. f (n f x) for beaing lazier.
08:05:16 <tromp> yes, it's always seemed the more proper order to me
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08:05:34 <tromp> applying the extra f at the end rather than at the start
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08:12:08 <int-e> anyway nice to see a Wolfram book that's not reinventing science :P
08:13:06 <int-e> "thought-provoking and broadly accessible" I can believe... I imagine that's also actually true for the ANKS of book.
08:20:28 <tromp> maybe you want to go after his $20k prize: https://combinatorprize.org/
08:21:28 <int-e> Hmm, does he cite Johannes Waldmann's thesis?
08:22:11 <tromp> he's not much into citing other people:(
08:23:13 <tromp> but he does have Waldmann in the references
08:23:59 <int-e> (it's almost exclusively on the S combinator, https://www.imn.htwk-leipzig.de/~waldmann/pub/)
08:25:30 <int-e> Yeah attributing the idea that this might be TC to himself doesn't feel right to me at all.
08:26:18 <tromp> did Johannes come up with that 39x39 table?
08:27:08 <tromp> to determine halting behaviour of S-only combinators?
08:28:15 <tromp> his book just says: What was discovered in 2000 is that there's a complete way to test.... and then gives the table
08:29:31 <tromp> for rule 110 universality, he says: with much of the heavy lifting done by a then-research assistent of mine
08:30:10 <int-e> Hmm there's no table of states in the thesis, I think. He defines lots of auxiliary regular tree languages. I've never thought to count them...
08:33:28 <int-e> 2000 matches The Combinator S, Information and Computation 159, 2-21 (2000)... hmm. have I seen that paper...
08:35:11 <tromp> yes,that's one of his 2 references
08:35:45 <tromp> the other is a coauthored 2010 paper on local termination
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08:36:58 <tromp> oh, he does name Johannes at the chapter end
08:37:32 <int-e> the paper has a grammar, so the table is Wolfram's own doing, I think.
08:38:51 <tromp> he mentions Joerg Endrullis
08:39:18 <tromp> for "The detailed version that I used here"
08:39:27 <int-e> yeah not unexpected in this context
08:40:43 <tromp> one of the coauthors of the 2010 paper
08:49:02 <int-e> Anyway I'm not going down that rabbit hole :)
08:51:20 <int-e> (I've already managed to stay away from the question whether the word problem for S is decidable for 10+ years)
10:23:05 <tromp> i'll write some sort of blog article about SK numerals...
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13:34:58 <esolangs> [[Lananang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89357&oldid=89356 * Heptor * (+4) /* Math */
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14:29:57 <Corbin> tromp, int-e: S isn't complete on its own. Wolfram doesn't accept the folklore proof for some reason, probably because it would make him look like a dunce.
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14:37:34 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89358 * 4gboframram * (+7224) Created page with "Brainfuckn't is a tape-based esolang created by [[user:4gboframram]]. The goal of the language was to make a language that is more frustrating to use than [[brainfuck]], but a..."
14:39:24 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89359&oldid=89358 * 4gboframram * (+11) /* Brief Specification */
14:40:58 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89360&oldid=89359 * 4gboframram * (+8) /* Computational Class */
15:24:56 <tromp> Corbin: what folklore proof are you referring to? S is not complete because you can't define K in terms of S? Wolfram recognizes that of course
15:32:17 <int-e> yeah part of the exercise is undoubtedly to come up with an encoding for inputs and an acceptance condition; maybe even an evaluation order
15:32:49 <tromp> Wolfram wonders if there are some efficient functions <embed, detect, extract> such that embed maps an SK term to an S term, detect maps an S term to a boolean, and extract maps an S term to an SK term, and if SK term t has a normal form nf, then you can reduce embed t to some term s for which detect s and extract s = nf (or something like that)
15:34:13 <tromp> this seems exceedingly unlikely to be possible, but i don't know how to disprove it
15:34:20 <int-e> https://combinatorprize.org/ should really include a proper problem statement (did I miss one?)
15:36:05 <tromp> check https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2021/06/1920-2020-and-a-20000-prize-announcing-the-s-combinator-challenge/
15:37:16 <tromp> the <embed, detect, extract> statement is my own interpretation for what he wants
15:39:09 <int-e> oh the full 39x39 table is actually online too https://content.wolfram.com/uploads/sites/43/2020/12/sw1203img440.png
15:39:14 <tromp> you can intrepret "efficient" either as polytime, or more generously as any primitive recursive running time
15:39:15 <int-e> for whatever that's worth
15:40:06 <tromp> and the reduction strategy used in the above should also be efficiently computable
15:40:08 <Corbin> Part of the problem is that Wolfram keeps saying "universal" instead of "Turing-complete". This is part of his effort to avoid actually citing real mathematics.
15:41:02 <Corbin> For consider the Church-Turing thesis. Given two Turing-complete systems, we should be able to write emulators for each system in the other system, so that we can emulate a system on itself by stacking the two emulators together.
15:41:18 <tromp> it's funny how his books are full of "it seems that", "it appears that", "it looks like" .... :)
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15:41:48 <Corbin> So if S is "universal", then there should be emulations SK -> S -> SK and S -> SK -> S which preserve halting.
15:42:32 <Corbin> The latter is trivial with a handwave. So it's the former that we want; how do we emulate SK in S? And so that's what Wolfram has focused on.
15:43:14 <Corbin> But now, notice that we still want anything we map from SK into S to come back out in SK working the same way. And *that* gives us leverage, because now we can use folklore about missing K and I to argue that S is not Turing-complete.
15:43:37 <tromp> but it's a non-standard notion of emulation, as he allows a terminating computation to be emulated by a non-terminating one
15:44:53 <Corbin> Yeah, that's kind of a problem, isn't it? I wonder how he imagines checking whether a computation is complete.
15:45:07 <int-e> That's rather unrestricted (the compiler/detector/decoder scheme), so yeah I don't see how a negative proof could work.
15:46:14 <Corbin> As soon as we've done this, then all of the proofs that people give in the comments to Wolfram's challenge post are back on the table, and at least some of them sound convincing enough.
15:48:01 <int-e> How do you prevent this... encode TM in the stabilized part of a non-terminating term. The detector runs the TM for <current size of term> steps, signals success on nontermination; the decoder also runs the TM, extracts input.
15:48:09 <int-e> Now... if I put it like that it's clearly cheating.
15:48:43 <int-e> But neither of the parts is Turing-Complete by itself.
15:49:33 <int-e> The S combinator evolution is an essential part if it's ultimately just used as fuel.
15:52:05 <tromp> int-e: cute exploit:-)
15:53:25 <int-e> s/nontermination/termination/
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15:54:07 <Corbin> Hm. Here's another approach. From category theory, it's provable that Turing-complete computation cannot be reversed. But because S doesn't forget values, we should be able to reverse a sequence of applications in a tree with only S combinators.
15:54:37 <int-e> This kind of thing is a hard problem to state if you don't want to severely restrict the encoder and decoder.
15:55:33 <tromp> it's easy to make TM reversible with an extra tape
15:56:14 <Corbin> A fair point. Similarly, while sets and functions aren't reversible, sets and relations are reversible. The chosen model matters a lot.
15:56:28 <Corbin> This is another reason why "universal" is a weasel-word for Wolfram.
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16:02:47 <int-e> Well, S contraction isn't confluent. S(SSS)SS -> SSSS(SS) -> SS(SS)(SS) -> S(SS)(SS(SS)) <- S(SS)(SSSS) and neither S(SSS)SS nor S(SS)(SSSS) can be contracted further.
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16:03:05 <int-e> So that's an obstacle to reversal.
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16:04:54 <Corbin> Oh! Okay. Then I have been too facile about this. If S isn't confluent on its own, then that means that we need to consider this non-deterministically.
16:05:44 <int-e> Hmm... do you accept the proof that rule 110 is universal? I don't think I do. I think providing an infinite background pattern is too much freedom.
16:06:45 <Corbin> I don't think it's any different than allowing a Turing machine to take an input, or allowing a Wang tileset to start with a border on one edge/corner.
16:07:16 <int-e> inputs are finite though
16:08:11 <int-e> Corbin: S-reduction is confluent though.
16:08:13 <Corbin> That's fair. An infinite *repeating* background pattern would be fine.
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16:08:58 <Corbin> Oh, sorry; what's contraction?
16:09:37 <int-e> Uh, the inverse of reduction here... why did I pick the term "contraction"...
16:09:58 <int-e> Ah because S x y z -> x z (y z) the right-hand side is usually bigger than the left-hand side.
16:10:14 <int-e> So inspired by size.
16:10:30 <Corbin> Oh, okay. It doesn't have to be confluent to be reversible. What I'm getting at is that, because all of the data is still there, even a non-deterministic reversible approach is possible.
16:10:35 <int-e> But technically wrong, I should've said "expansion".
16:11:05 <tromp> or "unreduction" :-)
16:11:11 <Corbin> If there's a K combinator, then the non-constant input is forgotten, and in an untyped context, we can't just range over what that input might have been; it could have been *anything*. So we can't non-deterministically go backwards.
16:11:32 <Corbin> Going backwards with S is merely exponential. It's expensive but finite to explore.
16:12:40 <int-e> Right. tromp's argument was more to the point anyway.
16:12:58 <int-e> (that reversibility isn't an obstacle to universality)
16:15:20 <Corbin> It's an obstacle to asserting that something has been *computed*. I'm sure you've heard the argument of the waterfall computer, which "computes" by permuting the positions of atoms; but in order to actually extract computation from a permutation, we must label the inputs and the outputs, and the manipulation of those labels is the actual computation.
16:16:17 <Corbin> Quantum computers only compute because of how the Born rule works; we measure qubits at the end, irreversibly altering their state.
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16:17:56 <int-e> Corbin: Well, an extractor could potentially be as simple as labeling the term with a top-down tree automaton and discarding the subtrees for certain trees.
16:18:40 <Corbin> int-e: Yes, but I view that as just plugging in a K at the top and letting the S terms apply that K over and over, which is known to build all of SKI.
16:18:41 <int-e> If that works (big if, obviously) I'd accept that the actual computation happens in the S calculus.
16:19:44 <int-e> I doubt that you can capture that in a finite tree automaton.
16:20:45 <int-e> (Gut feeling, no proof.)
16:22:49 <Corbin> int-e: Here's a large pile of statements; the important part is under "Applicative Systems and Computable Maps". https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2019/08/turing_categories.html If S and K are present, even in a way where S was pre-applied and freeze-dried and K was only mixed in later, then we get a partial combinatory algebra and etc.
16:23:25 <Corbin> The root of that is ultimately https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smn_theorem and so that should be our focus. Can we use S to implement Kleene's projections?
16:24:38 <Corbin> Well, K is one of Kleene's projections! It's the projection which takes two arguments and returns the first one. And it's known that S can't implement K.
16:25:53 <Corbin> This completes a proof statement which convinces me that Wolfram's conjecture is false; every Turing category has a K combinator.
16:28:11 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89361&oldid=89360 * 4gboframram * (-9) /* Brief Specification */
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16:41:01 <int-e> A strong counterpoint is that BCW is Turing-complete and also lacks K. The idea is to replace every value v by a pair <v,g> where g collects any garbage that would have to be deleted, while the first component just acts as in ordinary lambda calculus/combinatory logic.
16:41:29 <int-e> (as usual pairs are encoded by <x,y> = \p. p x y)
16:51:34 <Corbin> I haven't seen this before and I'm having trouble working it out myself. Could you show me how I or K are encoded?
16:53:34 <int-e> something like http://paste.debian.net/1218221/
16:54:04 <int-e> that feels overcomplicated, actually
16:55:01 <int-e> Note on variable names: px = pair encoding x; x = the original x; gx = garbage associated with x.
16:55:37 <Corbin> Oh. I'll keep working it out for myself, but I was hoping for expressions in B, C, and W.
16:55:51 <int-e> That would be totally uninstructive
16:56:39 <Corbin> It would be totally constructive, though.
16:59:58 <Corbin> int-e: I want to buy your argument. Even with it, I think I can refute the idea that this would work for S. The problem is, roughly, implementing S with S.
17:01:24 <Corbin> Let's suppose for contradiction that there's two expressions in S, called big-S and big-K, which implement SK and are therefore make S universal. In order to do this, we'd use the same application for big-S and big-K as with just S, except maybe our application needs an intermediate glue, also made wholly of S, in order to function.
17:02:25 <Corbin> There's a smallest such big-S and big-K, since we're working with finite expressions. But the smallest big-S is just S itself. This reduces the problem to whether big-K can be implemented with just S, which is just the question of whether S alone implements K.
17:06:48 <int-e> Oh I need I as well, don't I.
17:15:39 <tromp> yes, to the extent that I = W K
17:17:10 <tromp> but isn't I also B C C ?
17:18:16 <int-e> How? B C C x = C (C x)
17:18:39 <tromp> B C C x y z = C (C x) y z = C x z y = x y z
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17:25:26 <int-e> Corbin: so, [K] = C (W (B (C I) (B (C I) (C (B C (B (B C) (W (B (C (B B B)) (B (B (B (C I))) (B (B B) (B B))))))) I)))) I (B C (C I))
17:27:22 <int-e> yay it's actually correct.
17:29:35 <int-e> This implementation isn't very good, it encodes W as B W (C (B B C) I) :)
17:31:22 <Corbin> Okay, and that's with I = B C C as above. Makes sense. The size of the trees is definitely foreboding.
17:32:15 <int-e> But unsurprisingly the bad encoding of W itself doesn't matter.
17:32:18 <Corbin> Consider me convinced. Good work; thank you.
17:33:51 <int-e> Unfortunately, I = B C C only works if it's actually applied to 3 more arguments.
17:35:15 <Corbin> But that's fine, isn't it? Because at the top, we have a pair which needs one argument to eliminate the pair, and then two more arguments to invoke the LHS and throw away the RHS?
17:36:20 <int-e> So what about the first component of the pair
17:36:26 <int-e> we know nothing about that.
17:36:40 <int-e> But it's the value we actually want to have in the end.
17:51:02 <int-e> tromp: so I hacked BCWI(plus K if erasure is present) abstraction elimination in the blc tool... but I did it by extending the CL datatype with extra constructors for I, B, C, and W. Should I commit or is that too dirty?
17:52:18 <int-e> I guess I can make a pull request instead and leave it for discussion.
17:52:33 <tromp> please commit as a different branch for now
17:54:36 <tromp> need to think about best approach. maybe a new datatype with some conversion operators?
17:54:37 <int-e> yeah did that just now
17:55:04 <int-e> I mean I pushed a new branch and made a PR for discussion
17:55:47 <int-e> I also know almost nothing about this combinator basis... like, are there any interesting optimizations?
17:58:06 <int-e> Anyway, at least this way the code won't be lost.
18:02:41 <Corbin> Huh. By complete coincidence, I just found https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/50688/52212
18:03:17 <Corbin> Is the answer just C? And then adding K makes for a better encoding.
18:03:50 <Corbin> int-e: I think you could provide a complete answer here, if you'd like the karma. I only feel qualified to leave a comment.
18:05:21 <int-e> I have no SE account. I also lack intuition for how essential or not C is in all of this.
18:06:57 <int-e> What I do know is that B, C, and S have very clear roles in abstraction elimination. Assuming x occurs in M N we have [\x. M N] -> B M [\x. N] if x doesn't occur in M; [\x. M N] -> C [\x. M] N if x doesn't occur in N; [\x. M N] -> S [\x. M] [\x. N] otherwise.
18:08:24 <int-e> And you can get close enough to S from W, B, and C: S a b = W (B (C a) b)
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19:12:50 <b_jonas> “<tromp> but it's a non-standard notion of emulation, as he allows a terminating computation to be emulated by a non-terminating one” => I don't think that's much of a problem. In PCs before the ATX chasis, programs couldn't turn the power supply off, nor did they have a power-saving mode for the CPU or motherboard, and often had no power saving mode for the CRT either. The main power supply and CRT
19:12:57 <b_jonas> could only be turned off externally, with no control from a program. Would you argue that those old computers can't do powerful enough computations because they can't decide to halt depending on the result of a computation? I don't think so. (If you want to say that they're not powerful because they have little RAM, that's fine.)
19:18:43 <b_jonas> Or, for a more mathematical argument, consider Underload without the ! and S primitives, which can't delete anything, but is still Turing-complete.
19:20:07 <int-e> or that stupid rule 110 cellular automaton
19:20:11 <int-e> wich just keeps going
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19:38:18 <b_jonas> “But the smallest big-S is just S itself.” => are you saying that if you already know how to do arithmetic with dollars, then you can't simulate doing arithmetic with dollars and cents, because the smallest thing that can simulate a dollar is a dollar itself, and there's nothing that can simulate a cent if you choose that?
19:42:40 <b_jonas> “or that stupid rule 110 cellular automaton / wich just keeps going” => hmm. if https://esolangs.org/wiki/Infinite_Vector was defined without the :-( operator, so that programs can't halt and in nontrivial programs the memory keeps growing and can never shrink, would you still count it as Turing-complete?
19:47:54 <int-e> btw I'm fine with that aspect of rule 110, it's really the infinite intial state that leaves me dissatisfied
19:49:14 <riv> no one has managed to remove that?
19:49:29 <riv> i guess people aren't really interested in rule 30
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19:49:36 <int-e> not that I'm aware of.
19:50:17 <int-e> But I could easily have missed it... I largely don't care.
19:50:50 <riv> it seems like nobody really studies these 1d CAs
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19:53:07 <int-e> maybe 2D CAs are just more exciting to look at
19:54:13 <b_jonas> a finite control pointer register machine that allocates immutable conses on the heap also can't "forget" anything, though it can lose conses in a way that a garbage collector could free them, and it is Turing-complete.
20:12:02 <int-e> tromp: oh you made a suggestion, that sounds reasonable. will revisit tomorrow
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20:14:33 <Corbin> b_jonas: That's a really funny analogy, thanks.
20:26:05 <b_jonas> there is some difference in scale though. Infinite Vector has to at least double its memory usage in every loop, while a pointer machine might cons logarithmically rarely.
20:26:53 <b_jonas> maybe it's not logarithmic, only nth root if you have n+O(1) registers
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23:08:19 <tromp> SK numerals article up at https://john-tromp.medium.com/sk-numerals-9ad1b5634b28
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01:10:58 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Or, for a more mathematical argument, consider Underload without the ! and S primitives, which can't delete anything, but is still Turing-complete. <-- iirc the first proof i made in that section is pretty much the same kind of junk-based thing int-e gave for BCW (which i hadn't heard about)
01:11:18 <oerjan> except the junk is put on the stack
01:12:13 <oerjan> now i somewhat wonder if you could also apply the later "two ways of running a term, one of which self-deletes" method to BCW
01:54:47 <b_jonas> oerjan: Smullyan's bird book talks about BCW, but I don't think it gives a full proof
01:56:26 <b_jonas> it also doesn't tell whether it's Turing-complete – it only says that from the BCW basis you can get any lambda term of a certain form, namely one with applications only on variables inside the lambdas, and with all bound variables used at least once
01:56:59 <b_jonas> all of that IIRC, I haven't checked the book even though it's within arm's reach of me
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06:01:03 <int-e> Corbin: Here's a tested translation to BCWI: https://paste.debian.net/1218287/
06:02:52 <int-e> what I did yesterday was flawed... it's not really possible to extract all the garbage to the top level (some subterms may not even participate in the evaluation to head normal form).
06:04:45 <int-e> But it's also simpler than what I tried yesterday in that application is actually translated as application.
06:06:42 <int-e> (This relies on the <F,X> <G,Y> = F G Y X that I spelled out yesterday.)
06:11:18 <int-e> Anyway, I would be surprised if this kind of direct simulation of combinatory logic works for S. But I can't rule it out; lack of erasure simply isn't enough.
06:25:13 <Corbin> I still like my argument from last time about implementing S with S, but I'm not any closer to making it rigorous.
06:29:08 <int-e> Oh the x z I I (y z g h) from [S] can be demystified using that pair identiy: it's equal to <x,I> <z,I> (<y,h> <z,g>)
06:29:57 <int-e> where I, g, and h are garbage we don't care about.
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06:55:40 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJi0xeNI6ho
07:04:55 * int-e eyes that links suspiciously
07:06:02 <int-e> "436,906 Hz redstone clock" hmm might actually be amusing
07:07:44 <int-e> GoL has a similar thing where people searched for the fastest possible glider gun
07:12:05 <int-e> cf. https://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Period-14_glider_gun
07:12:56 <riv> successive gliders cannot be closer than 14 generations
07:13:36 <riv> funny that you can inject with spaceships somehow
07:13:42 <riv> that there's enough space for that
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01:47:35 <oerjan> <b_jonas> it also doesn't tell whether it's Turing-complete – it only says that from the BCW basis you can get any lambda term of a certain form, namely one with applications only on variables inside the lambdas, and with all bound variables used at least once <-- i think that must be BCWI. i got nerd sniped into thinking about what it's with _just_ BCW.
01:47:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: aren't those the same?
01:48:06 <b_jonas> like can't you get I from BCW?
01:49:15 <oerjan> you can, i think, get a fixpoint-based almost-version that shuffles itself away: I' a b = a (I' b)
01:49:40 <b_jonas> yeah, it's BCWI or equivalently BCSI
01:49:59 <oerjan> without that, the best you can get is int-e's BCC x y z = x y z
01:50:37 <oerjan> and that's almost the general rule i found: you get any closed lambda expression in which any innermost expression contains at least two applications.
01:51:08 <b_jonas> that is reasonably close, I guess
01:51:18 <oerjan> you will note that all of B, C and W have that property, and you cannot get rid of it
01:59:01 <oerjan> indeed. you have perfect S: from int-e's S a b = W (B (C a) b) you can eliminate further to B W (B (C a)) b = B (B W) (B B C) a b
02:01:31 <oerjan> um *any closed lambda expression using all parameter variables at least once and ...
02:04:23 <oerjan> also, i suspect BCWI can implement underload's :()^~ , giving a way to do TC-ness without junk.
02:04:50 <oerjan> (maybe * and a as well now i think about it)
02:05:14 <oerjan> (with a pair-based stack)
02:07:18 <oerjan> or one might implement some K-elimination similar to my underload method directly.
02:09:49 <oerjan> perhaps one could use B C C = \f x y -> f x y and C = \f x y -> f y x as booleans to distinguish the self-deletion and running modes
02:10:20 <oerjan> and maybe manage with just B C W
02:12:09 <oerjan> although, what should the API for that be
02:13:05 <oerjan> ...someone has to have done something like this for LC already
02:48:18 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89386&oldid=89234 * DigitalDetective47 * (+2) /* Left-Right March */ Fixed header level
03:22:42 <zzo38> Although there are some different GUI widget set libraries some of which are portable, is there the interface which is independent from the implementation? (I could try to make up such a thing if there isn't one or if the existing ones are not good enough, I suppose.)
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07:26:08 <zzo38> (I mean for example a common .h file so that the same API function calls are used but you can substitute a different implementation and it can work)
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09:03:20 <int-e> oerjan: fwiw, the BCC was tromp's not mine
09:10:38 <HackEso> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it.
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11:45:48 <tromp> bcc.nl is a Dutch electronics & home appliance chain
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13:54:51 <HackEso> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it.
14:00:21 <fizzie> `slashlearn bcc//The "Bcc:" field (where the "Bcc" means "Blind Carbon Copy") contains addresses of recipients of the message whose addresses are not to be revealed to other recipients of the message.
14:00:24 <HackEso> Learned 'bcc': The "Bcc:" field (where the "Bcc" means "Blind Carbon Copy") contains addresses of recipients of the message whose addresses are not to be revealed to other recipients of the message.
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16:37:10 <Melvar> Amusing thing that happened a few days ago: Someone asked if a less readable way to write a simple conditional function in Haskell was more efficient, and someone responded that the two ways might well compile to the same thing. The latter person then went to actually check the Core for those two functions, and found that GHC replaced the second function with a reference to the first.
16:37:24 <Melvar> So not only did they compile to the same thing, but the compiler noticed and deduplicated them.
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17:08:47 <esolangs> [[User:Otesunki]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89387 * Otesunki * (+83) initial commit
17:09:03 <esolangs> [[User:Otesunki]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89388&oldid=89387 * Otesunki * (+3) im dumb
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17:33:52 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89389&oldid=89377 * Rphii * (+30) fix command list
17:39:40 <esolangs> [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89390&oldid=88723 * LarhoCherqi * (-86) Changed the interpreter link into a compiler link
18:19:01 <HackEso> A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
18:31:20 <HackEso> Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
18:32:55 <Melvar> I see no normalization is being done.
18:33:29 <Melvar> (Second one is A + combining ring)
19:08:18 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89391&oldid=89350 * PixelatedStarfish * (+155)
19:09:53 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89392&oldid=89391 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10)
19:10:21 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89393&oldid=89392 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
19:19:09 <b_jonas> Melvar: some normalization is done on wisdom names, just not that kind of normalization
19:19:27 <HackEso> Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
19:19:37 <HackEso> Ä is a Swedish geographical feature.
19:21:21 <b_jonas> ``` for x in à á â æ ð ñ õ ö ø ü þ ÿ; do \? "$x"; done
19:21:32 <HackEso> à? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ á? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ â? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ æ? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ð? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ñ? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ õ? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ö? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ø is not going anywhere. \ ü is the ridiculously happy second derivative of the letter ‘u’ with respect to time. \ þ? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ ÿ? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:50:59 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Z a-z | LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 sed 'y/ØÅÆŒÞÐÄÖÜÁÉÍÓÚÝŁ/øåæœþðäöüáéíóúýł/'
19:51:04 <fizzie> That's a very particular lowercasing.
19:57:41 <b_jonas> interesting. why doesn't it do the A-Za-z part in the sed transliteration too?
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20:07:52 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/learn # does that use the same casefolding rule?
20:07:53 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "$HACKENV/wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "$HACKENV/wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1"
20:08:02 <b_jonas> ``` cat /hackenv/bin/lowercase
20:08:04 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Z a-z | LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 sed 'y/ØÅÆŒÞÐÄÖÜÁÉÍÓÚÝŁ/øåæœþðäöüáéíóúýł/'
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22:06:14 <int-e> b_jonas: you'd have to spell out all 26 letters
22:08:52 <b_jonas> whoa... the sed y statement doesn't do hyphenated ranges?
22:25:33 <Riviera> nope only literal characters
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00:15:08 <HackEso> The "Bcc:" field (where the "Bcc" means "Blind Carbon Copy") contains addresses of recipients of the message whose addresses are not to be revealed to other recipients of the message.
00:15:19 <oerjan> isn't this unnaturally accurate for wisdom
00:18:08 <imode> that's a straight up copy from a dictionary.
00:18:09 <HackEso> 10656:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4}; mv \'{\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5}\'
00:18:29 <fizzie> It's a straight up copy from RFC 2822, to be specific.
00:18:58 <imode> but is it a _blind_ copy.
00:19:03 <fizzie> And yeah, well, maybe a few of the entries can be actually accurate, just to catch people off guard.
00:19:16 <oerjan> this dowg is a bit hard to interpret
00:19:39 <oerjan> HackEso's command to show wisdom history
00:20:29 <oerjan> `` echo \xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4
00:20:52 <imode> quotes needed maybe?
00:21:05 <oerjan> `` echo "\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4"
00:21:10 <oerjan> `` echo -e "\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4"
00:21:52 <oerjan> `` echo -e "\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5"
00:22:17 <oerjan> oh that was after the case folding was improved
00:22:24 <HackEso> 10656:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4}; mv \'{\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5}\' \ 10580:2017-04-03 <oerjän> learn \xc3\x84 is a Swedish geographical feature.
00:22:50 <oerjan> ok i've reached the point where i have no idea what i was thinking :P
00:23:05 <imode> so obscure even oerjan can't decode it.
00:23:11 <imode> you are your own worst enemy.
00:23:25 <fizzie> Well, you know what they say: þÿ.
00:23:33 <oerjan> i'll look it up in wiktionary and see if was deceptively accurate
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00:24:43 <oerjan> i think i was just straight up lying
00:25:05 <oerjan> ("Å" is a swedish geographic feature, namely a river)
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00:25:37 <fizzie> þÿ was out of the table of contents of the recent C23 draft (N2731), which looks like this (at least in Zathura and Evince): https://zem.fi/tmp/toc.png
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00:52:55 <b_jonas> ``` echo $'\xc3\x84,\xc3\xa4' # oerjan:
00:55:56 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I already looked at these
00:57:40 <Melvar> “why doesn't it do the A-Za-z part in the sed transliteration too?” – My question is, why doesn’t it do the specific characters in the `tr` transliteration?
00:57:59 <b_jonas> Melvar: because tr only handles single bytes
00:58:06 <b_jonas> while the names are utf-8 encoded
00:58:24 <b_jonas> and yes, we could use a small perl/python/ruby script
00:58:30 <Melvar> What seriously, tr does bytes?
00:58:37 <Melvar> Who came up with that then?
01:00:37 <b_jonas> Melvar: “Currently ‘tr’ fully supports only single-byte characters. Eventually it will support multibyte characters;” (from the coreutils info manual)
01:12:23 <zzo38> I think working with bytes makes sense, although it can also be useful to be able to work with sequences of multiple bytes (whether or not those sequences correspond to single characters), but perhaps working with sequences of multiple bytes would better be handled by something other than tr anyways, which can deal more properly with regular expressions and match/replace otherwise too.
02:34:23 <zzo38> (Other times, the sequences that you might want, might consist of neither bytes nor of characters, but perhaps blocks of multiple bytes, or lines, etc)
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03:31:26 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89394&oldid=89393 * PixelatedStarfish * (+225)
03:34:47 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89395&oldid=89394 * PixelatedStarfish * (+67) /* BrainSoup Examples */
03:36:55 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89396&oldid=89395 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) /* BrainSoup Examples */
03:37:19 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89397&oldid=89396 * PixelatedStarfish * (-26) /* BrainSoup Examples */
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05:39:20 <zzo38> There is a 404 error when trying to access the information about thETA programming language, but I think I remember that how it works is that if a division by zero occurs, then it makes a new thread.
05:51:02 <esolangs> [[ThETA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89398&oldid=71007 * Oerjan * (+25) Wayback link
05:51:29 <oerjan> zzo38: not quite, it exits and returns a value to the parent.
05:52:12 <zzo38> O, that's how it works. I may misremembered
05:53:52 <oerjan> also, i fixed the link
05:54:39 <esolangs> [[Template:Wayback]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89399&oldid=75153 * Oerjan * (+1) Use https
05:56:33 <zzo38> Yes, I saw that, now I know how it works.
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10:06:27 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89400&oldid=89389 * Rphii * (+1433) feature enhancement and details on documenting
10:10:22 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89401&oldid=89400 * Rphii * (-5) /* Examples */ there's actually a simpler calculator program
10:10:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Guy Fawkes Rep * uploaded "[[File:AlphabetCrossword.png]]": See [[acrostic]]
10:50:51 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89403&oldid=89401 * Rphii * (+1) fix cat example (previous one would loop)
10:52:43 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89404&oldid=89403 * Rphii * (-1) /* cat */ accidentally added a "
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11:38:33 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89405&oldid=89404 * Rphii * (-5) /* FizzBuzz */ repair
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12:54:17 <esolangs> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89406&oldid=87621 * PixelatedStarfish * (-22)
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13:45:18 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89407&oldid=89397 * PixelatedStarfish * (+32)
13:46:55 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89408&oldid=89407 * PixelatedStarfish * (+32)
13:47:33 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89409&oldid=89408 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
13:47:56 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89410&oldid=89409 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
13:48:30 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89411&oldid=89410 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
13:49:03 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89412&oldid=89411 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
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16:00:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89413&oldid=89370 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* BrainSoup */
16:30:57 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89414&oldid=89341 * PixelatedStarfish * (-176)
16:33:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89415&oldid=89413 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28) /* BrainSoup */
16:33:17 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89416&oldid=89415 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* BrainSoup */
16:33:35 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89417&oldid=89416 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* BrainSoup */
16:34:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89418&oldid=89417 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* BrainSoup */
16:34:33 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89419&oldid=89418 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* BrainSoup */
16:39:22 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89420&oldid=87857 * PixelatedStarfish * (+194) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
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16:40:16 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89421&oldid=89420 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* Possible Rework */
16:42:16 <esolangs> [[Nondescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89422&oldid=89307 * PixelatedStarfish * (+365)
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18:25:29 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89423&oldid=89412 * PixelatedStarfish * (-67) /* BrainSoup Examples */
18:25:46 <esolangs> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89424&oldid=89383 * PixelatedStarfish * (-66) /* Hello, World! program */
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20:16:54 <esolangs> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89425&oldid=89424 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello, World! program */
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20:49:24 <Kit> damn, proving a lang turing complete is a lot harder than i initially thought
20:49:32 <riv> which language?
20:49:56 <Kit> https://esolangs.org/wiki/CLE
20:50:13 <Kit> im trying to implement BCT in it
20:50:28 <Kit> but i am dumb
20:52:53 <Kit> how dare you insult me /s
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21:02:08 <Corbin> Kit: How does computation happen? Maybe as a warmup, how would we construct arbitrary colors?
21:02:43 <Kit> using `R`, `G`, `B`, `C`, etc.
21:04:23 <Kit> i did build NAND, OR, NOR, NOT, XOR, and XNOR gates for it but idk if that proves anything
21:05:01 <Corbin> That would be a great advance, yes; we could use circuit complexity classes, even.
21:13:58 <Kit> you can create any color in a 24-bit RGB space by combining colors and using the "shade" which cuts all the RGB values in half
21:15:30 <Corbin> I wonder what else is needed. Unbounded loops, I guess. Would there be a way to create unbounded recursion, were it not for the finite board?
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21:15:57 <Kit> wdym by unbounded recursion
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21:16:16 <Kit> store a color for later use?
21:16:31 <Corbin> Like, recursing without being confident that it might stop. Looping would work too.
21:17:13 <Kit> you can make a loop by doing `>r<` which would output a red beam every other cycle
21:17:27 <Kit> if that is what you mean?
21:21:37 <Corbin> Kind of. We'd need to find a way to make it unpredictable whether the beam is being output.
21:22:16 <Kit> you can intercept it by adding a filter thatd block the red from crossing
21:23:31 <Corbin> Hm. I wonder if filters could be modulated to create a crude transistor.
21:24:35 <Kit> you can, yea
21:24:51 <Corbin> I guess that the halting criterion for CLE should be whether two cycles in a row have the same outputs?
21:25:31 <Kit> `>r<` outputs one red one cycle and nothing on the next
21:25:33 <HackEso> >r<`? No such file or directory
21:25:39 <Kit> oh shut up
21:25:59 <Kit> on the next cycle it does one red again and nothing again, and repeat
21:27:52 <Corbin> Right. This is a productive loop. If we simulate CLE with a Turing machine, we could imagine writing down the current color for each cycle onto an output tape.
21:31:29 <Corbin> But if we want to find Turing-complete CLE behavior, then we need to imagine that sometimes we stop outputting anything. This means that we need some way to consider the CLE machine done.
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21:34:33 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89426&oldid=89423 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* BrainSoup Examples */
21:35:00 <Kit_> you can have an output "tape"
21:35:21 <Kit_> but idk how you could store that and read any part of it back
21:35:32 <Kit_> you *could* use the tofu but
21:35:56 <Kit_> idk how youd be able to select the element you want
21:37:06 <Corbin> No worries. Right now I suppose I'm looking for ways in which a CLE interpreter would not need to be Turing-complete. Since it's legal and common for a CLE program to run forever, perhaps we should look at the complexity of simulating a single cycle in CLE.
21:38:30 <Kit_> each cell is treated in the exact same way
21:38:50 <Kit_> and it just checks each cell sequentially
21:39:11 <Kit_> every op doesnt access any data outside its cell
21:39:28 <Corbin> Okay. Then I want to quote from [[Brainfuck]]'s section on complexity classes.
21:39:41 <Corbin> "When the array is unbounded, or when the array is at least three cells long and can store unbounded values, brainfuck is Turing-complete, meaning that it is in the same computational class as universal Turing machines."
21:40:55 <Kit_> CLE has bounded integers
21:40:59 <Corbin> Let's take the De Morgan dual of that statement, for CLE. When CLE's board is bounded and the number of possible colors is also bounded, then we have a PSPACE automaton. PSPACE is "polynomial space"; Go and Chess are famous examples.
21:41:36 <Kit_> i think im following what youre saying
21:42:29 <Corbin> If we imagine that the colors are unbounded, then each channel should behave like a real number. We can then do some constructive maths; there are Turing-complete questions like, "Given a description of a real number R, is R equal to zero?"
21:43:40 <Kit_> you can do that, yes
21:44:02 <Corbin> If we imagine that the board is unbounded and that new cells can be dynamically allocated (this is the analogue of Brainfuck's one-dimensional growth to the "right") then we can chop the board into two regions, "left" and "right", and build a two-stack automaton which uses the "left" region for the main "stack" and the "right" region for the "call stack".
21:44:09 <Kit_> i made a NOT gate that outputs if the color is zero
21:45:28 <Kit_> i think i understand
21:45:54 <Corbin> Like, let's imagine that the board is a connected square in an ocean of unused cells. This is the "left" region. If we want to run a statically-known routine, we can pre-allocate space for it here.
21:46:30 <Corbin> The external ocean is the "right" region. To run an unknown routine, allocate its starting space in a *connected* region on the left/right boundary, and then transfer control up into the new region.
21:47:34 <Corbin> In order to really make this work, you might need a way to either pre-format the unknown region with a carefully-chosen arrangement of mirrors and mufflers, or some sort of self-modifying code. Both are "fun".
21:48:55 <Corbin> I think that the real-number color channels would be easier to design but harder to use, and vice versa for the infinite board. Hopefully I'm missing something and these are both much simpler than I'm making it sound!
21:49:08 <Kit_> i was thinking of adding some sort of modification but i thought that might be cheesy (in the way bf derivs are cheesy)
21:49:22 <Kit_> s/modification/self-modification
21:50:15 <Kit_> but the primary problem with having an infinite board is that
21:50:38 <Kit_> theres no way to modify a beam thats on a blank cell
21:50:40 <Corbin> Well, it's just not obvious how an empty infinite board would let you extend your computation. You could emit light out, but you really need to mix it with other light, so you need some mirrors out there to help.
21:51:27 <Kit_> so self-modification can solve the issue but idk how id implement it
21:53:19 <Corbin> The cheesiest way would be sci-fi "building from light", where specific light colors could be mixed to call constructors in a cell. Mixing two colors could require a 48-bit magic value. But this can be messy since it creates forbidden colors that can't be expressed directly.
21:54:34 <Kit_> in order to represent the entire RGB spectrum you do need to do a mixture of shades and RGBs
21:54:42 <Corbin> Another sci-fi possibility is a "Von Neumann constructor", a special cell which takes light from one direction and rebuilds the contents of the cell in another direction. This is known to be Turing-complete for careful choices of direction, even if the only possible modification is to turn any cell into another Von Neumann replicator.
21:55:19 <Corbin> Ugh, IKR? Color spaces are such a headache. Linear RGB really saved my sanity.
21:55:27 <Kit_> i can make a cell
21:55:36 <Kit_> that when is hit with a beam
21:55:40 <Kit_> it duplicates itself
21:56:20 <Kit_> the only problem is that id have to wrangle that into the interpreter somehow as then thatd require accessing cells other than its own
21:56:31 <Kit_> but thats no problem
21:56:54 <Corbin> Yes. And then I think (using folklore) that CLE would be Turing-complete under the question of whether a given program is finished calling the duplicator.
21:59:51 <Kit_> that makes sense
22:00:51 <Kit_> i dont 100% see how that can be considered turing complete but idk
22:04:16 <Corbin> Yeah, maybe not. We might need the constructor to build other types of cells. But then it should be possible to encode a Turing machine and use the constructor to write an output tape onto the board.
22:06:18 <Kit_> im trying to think how that might work
22:08:55 <Corbin> I would have cells which physically implement a write head on the tape, and intend for the tape to grow out in one single direction from the board. Because light can travel down empty corridors, I would let the head be instructed by the light: Write 0 or 1, move left or right, rebuild the entire head at the new position.
22:09:48 <Corbin> The main board would have a tofu for the current machine state, which has the same states as the Turing machine plus a waiting-for-head state. The head could send a signal when it's done building, which would trigger on that final state.
22:09:55 <Corbin> ...Huh, how do conditionals work in CLE?
22:10:38 <Kit_> i mentioned a couple times that i made logic gates work
22:10:39 <Corbin> Oh, so the path to updating the tofu could be filtered by the tofu's current state?
22:11:03 <Kit_> but filters only work on empty cells and on peropendicular beams
22:11:13 <Corbin> You did mention simple gates. Do you have something like an R/S latch?
22:11:31 <Kit_> lemme see if i can make one
22:14:09 <Kit_> yea its possible
22:20:13 <Corbin> Okay. Sorry, I'm having trouble focusing, but OTOH that covers all the moving parts. Please keep asking questions.
22:33:09 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89427&oldid=81838 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9)
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23:55:16 <Kit> Oh, sorry, was busy for a bit
23:57:16 <Kit> as for the self-modifying thing
23:57:42 <Kit> wdym by "write 0 or 1"
23:58:41 <Kit> uh i guess i should state that CLE is a lot like wireworld, in a way? hopefully that clears up any confusion
23:59:03 <Kit> except more... "analog"?
00:02:53 <esolangs> [[THIS IS NOT A BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89428&oldid=89427 * Not applicable * (+24) thanks for your contribution, starfish, but trailing spaces arent actually required, sorry!
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01:02:50 <esolangs> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89429&oldid=89406 * Oerjan * (+22) Undo revision 89406 by [[Special:Contributions/PixelatedStarfish|PixelatedStarfish]] ([[User talk:PixelatedStarfish|talk]])
01:05:17 <oerjan> all the others seem to have been purged already.
01:17:29 <oerjan> hm is florence going to make a surprise discovery
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11:03:35 <esolangs> [[..]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89430 * AmNow * (+1369) .. nose ..
11:04:28 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89431&oldid=89372 * AmNow * (+12) added lang
11:05:11 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89432&oldid=86583 * AmNow * (+29) added lang
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19:14:51 <esolangs> [[Brainfuckn't]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89433&oldid=89362 * 4gboframram * (-71) /* Hello World (129 characters) */
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20:30:27 <esolangs> [[CopyPasta Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89434&oldid=80486 * Rerednaw * (-96)
20:33:07 <esolangs> [[User:Rerednaw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89435&oldid=70457 * Rerednaw * (-1267)
20:39:54 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89436&oldid=89426 * PixelatedStarfish * (+101) /* Interpreter */
20:40:04 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89437&oldid=89436 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* External Links */
20:40:36 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89438&oldid=89437 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
20:40:53 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89439&oldid=89438 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
20:41:33 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89440&oldid=89439 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
20:42:27 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89441&oldid=89440 * PixelatedStarfish * (+66)
20:45:37 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89442&oldid=89419 * PixelatedStarfish * (-128) /* Unimplemented Languages */
20:46:18 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89443&oldid=89442 * PixelatedStarfish * (+128) /* Implemented Languages */
20:46:54 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89444&oldid=89443 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* BrainSoup */
20:47:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89445&oldid=89444 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* BrainSoup */
20:47:30 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89446&oldid=89445 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5) /* BrainSoup */
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21:01:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89447&oldid=89431 * 4gboframram * (+19) /* B */
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23:23:39 <zzo38> There is now a newsgroup for Gemini protocol on Big8. I didn't know they still added new newsgroups on Big8.
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03:17:28 <esolangs> [[User:Daggy1234]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89448 * Daggy1234 * (+5) User Daggy1234
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04:31:37 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89449&oldid=89441 * PixelatedStarfish * (+66) /* External Links */
04:34:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89450&oldid=89446 * PixelatedStarfish * (+74) /* BrainSoup */
04:34:36 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89451&oldid=89450 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* BrainSoup */
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04:50:12 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89452&oldid=88765 * PixelatedStarfish * (+157) /* External links */
04:50:34 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89453&oldid=89452 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* External links */
04:51:26 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89454&oldid=89453 * PixelatedStarfish * (-8) /* External links */
05:28:40 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89455&oldid=89451 * PixelatedStarfish * (+59)
05:29:54 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89456&oldid=89455 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
05:30:53 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89457&oldid=89456 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
05:33:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89458&oldid=89457 * PixelatedStarfish * (+48)
05:39:26 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89459 * Daggy1234 * (+970) Created page with "= PokeType = A simple mathematical expression evaluator that uses Pokemon types to replace symbols. == Syntax == === Reference === {| ! Symbol ! sath Equivalent ! Pokemon..."
05:39:59 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89460&oldid=89459 * Daggy1234 * (+0) /* Reference */
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05:56:34 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89461&oldid=89460 * Daggy1234 * (+354)
05:59:09 <esolangs> [[User:Daggy1234]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89462&oldid=89448 * Daggy1234 * (+39)
06:04:05 <zzo38> Should a "Interpreter:" header be added into the HTTP, in case the client does not know how to display the retrieved file, in case e.g. you want to return a Markdown or Gemini file, to hopefully satisfy both those who do want to make it a HTML with fancy CSS/JavaScript as well as to satisfy those who do not want it and want do it yourself instead
06:12:06 <zzo38> (It is also an alternative than using the Accept header to determine the picture format to use)
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09:18:32 <esolangs> [[ICBINB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89463 * ArthroStar11 * (+3797) created page and provided link to my interpreter
09:19:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89464&oldid=89447 * ArthroStar11 * (+13) Added my language "ICBINB"
09:20:49 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89465&oldid=89220 * ArthroStar11 * (+85)
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12:14:45 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89466&oldid=89461 * Daggy1234 * (+918)
12:16:57 <esolangs> [[PokeType]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89467&oldid=89466 * Daggy1234 * (-8)
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15:08:13 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89468 * PixelatedStarfish * (+369) Created page with "'''Chomp''' is a program language in the which the programmer must use memory one byte at a time. Bytes are stored on a circular tape of arbitrary size. Operations can be perf..."
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16:02:14 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89469&oldid=89468 * PixelatedStarfish * (-12)
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17:54:24 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89470&oldid=89469 * PixelatedStarfish * (+266) /* Commands */
17:57:14 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89471&oldid=89470 * PixelatedStarfish * (+93)
17:57:49 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89472&oldid=89471 * PixelatedStarfish * (+21) /* Commands */
17:58:47 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89473&oldid=89472 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Commands */
18:01:13 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89474&oldid=89458 * PixelatedStarfish * (+40) /* Unimplemented Languages */
18:09:03 <esolangs> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89475&oldid=82839 * Shaman * (+1374)
18:14:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ketok * New user account
18:21:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89476&oldid=89375 * Ketok * (+134)
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18:56:32 <esolangs> [[Izhora]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89477 * Shaman * (+4944) Created page with "'''Izhora''' (the first version known as '''Izhora 1''') is an [[OISC]] computer implemented as a large [[cellular automation]] pattern by Yoel Matveyev in 2021<ref>https://gi..."
18:56:51 <esolangs> [[Izhora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89478&oldid=89477 * Shaman * (+4)
18:57:51 <esolangs> [[Izhora]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89479&oldid=89478 * Shaman * (-1)
19:00:29 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89480&oldid=89473 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Commands */
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21:26:59 <riv> > The above text snippet contains two explicit directional formatting characters, U+202E (RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE) and U+202C (POP DIRECTIONAL FORMATTING). These characters can influence Unicode's Bidirectional Algorithm and could be used to craft source code that renders differently than what compilers would execute.
21:27:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:79: error: parse error on input ‘,’
21:27:04 <riv> there's a stack????
21:27:35 <esolangs> [[Where]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89481 * Ketok * (+1463) Created page with "'''Where''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Ketok]]. ==Language overview== Where operates on 4 memory cells, initially set to 1, 2, 3, 4. Each cell can..."
21:28:31 <fizzie> Yeah, you might have arbitrarily deeply nested quotations that need to alter the directional formatting.
21:29:00 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_text#Table_of_possible_BiDi_character_types
21:30:19 <fizzie> TBH, I read through that paper, and I was hoping for a few more spectacular examples, it seemed to be mostly just sneaking in comments.
21:44:25 <zzo38> This is one reason why I don't want to use Unicode.
21:49:58 <riv> i dont really see the problem
21:50:24 <riv> I think no one is looking at the code, so "hiding" stuff doesn't make a difference
21:50:27 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89482&oldid=89464 * Ketok * (+12) Added Where
21:50:52 <fizzie> A lot of projects do have a code review mechanism.
21:51:27 <riv> I guess so
21:52:04 <fizzie> For example, Linux kernel contributions do get reviewed. There was that previous controversy about a "study".
21:52:24 <fizzie> https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/30/22410164/linux-kernel-university-of-minnesota-banned-open-source
21:53:31 <riv> i remember that, that sucked
21:54:10 <fizzie> Not that you'd probably *need* Unicode trickery to hide malicious code, and (now that it's been widely popularized) having anything like that is going to be checked mechanically.
21:54:43 <shachaf> I think the Unicode BiDi stack nesting is limited to around 255 levels?
21:55:31 <shachaf> I think calling these BiDi things language vulnerabilities is just ridiculous, though, and the sort of attention this thing has gotten is mostly bad.
21:56:10 <riv> yeah it sort of bothers me but i can't really give a good reason why its not valid
21:56:27 <shachaf> Sure, it's probably reasonable not to support these code points in code, but that's about it.
21:56:28 <riv> i definitely saw this stuff a long long time ago though
21:56:34 <zzo38> I dislike Unicode; there is a lot of bad things. There are other character eocndings.
21:56:45 <riv> zzo38: don't youlike UTF-8?
21:56:47 <shachaf> Well, if your goal is to do this kind of attack, this just seems like a bad way to do it.
21:57:25 <shachaf> It's pretty easy to catch, and it's obviously on purpose.
21:58:03 <shachaf> Most likely you can just write some slightly confusing code and people won't read it very carefully.
21:58:36 <shachaf> Or just put blatant malicious code in some npm dependency everyone uses.
21:59:24 <shachaf> Or you can do sneakier things.
21:59:30 <zzo38> UTF-8 is not a bad encoding of Unicode (and has the advantage of being compatible with ASCII), but I dislike Unicode, and that is independent of what encoding is used for Unicode text.
22:19:57 <tm512> curious what you dislike about unicode. seems preferable to having a wide assortment of various character encodings depending on the language and its script
22:21:05 <tm512> maybe that's a false dichotomy but I'm not aware of any other character encodings that tackle this problem
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22:34:19 <zzo38> No single character encoding is ever suitable for all purposes. One encoding (that tries to avoid the problems with Han unification, but has a different set of advantages and disadvantages) is the TRON code.
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03:13:52 <esolangs> [[Lye]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89483 * Corbin * (+693) Document one of my old projects. I want to include examples, but first I have to find some decade-old backups.
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03:33:46 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89484&oldid=89474 * PixelatedStarfish * (+11) /* In Chronological Order */
03:34:46 <esolangs> [[Forget Me Not]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89485&oldid=89139 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Instructions */
03:43:54 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89486&oldid=89480 * PixelatedStarfish * (+63)
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05:55:33 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89487&oldid=89340 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+78) /* Derivative Ideas */
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08:07:26 <riv> zzo38 yes, why don't you like unicode? I think that's interesting
08:07:34 <riv> there's some aspects of it i dont like, but it mostly seems ok to me
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10:12:20 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89488&oldid=89487 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (-78)
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10:55:54 <esolangs> [[Keystone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89489 * AmNow * (+1058) Created page with "Keystone is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:AmNow]], and was made for the purpose of creating and checking product keys. == Commands == A variable can be decl..."
10:56:34 <esolangs> [[User:AmNow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89490&oldid=89432 * AmNow * (-9) added lang
10:57:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89491&oldid=89482 * AmNow * (+15) /* K */ added lang
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14:58:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89492&oldid=89476 * Umnikos * (+182) /* Introductions */
14:58:48 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89493&oldid=79657 * Umnikos * (+0) Fix Mathematics formula to be correct (and to also match the python script given along with it)
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15:18:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Chuckhoffmann * New user account
15:20:06 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_%28encoding%29
15:20:27 <riv> TRON (acronym for The Real-time Operating system Nucleus) is an open architecture real-time operating system kernel design. The project was started by Professor Dr. Ken Sakamura of the University of Tokyo in 1984. The project's goal is to create an ideal computer architecture and network, to provide for all of society's needs.[1]
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15:21:59 <riv> Each character in TRON Code is two bytes. Similarly to ISO/IEC 2022, the TRON character encoding handles characters in multiple character sets within a single character encoding by using escape sequences, referred to as language specifier codes, to switch between planes of 48,400 code points
15:22:04 <riv> this doesn't sound better than UTF-8
15:22:23 <riv> you have to use escape codes to switch planes, so if your message uses many different planes it will be longer
15:22:37 <riv> I think utf-8 text will be fewer bytes in general
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15:24:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89494&oldid=89492 * Chuckhoffmann * (+194) /* Introductions */
15:25:05 <esolangs> [[Pyhton (sic)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89495&oldid=82890 * Chuckhoffmann * (+1) Minor spelling corrections.
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17:23:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GingerIndustries * New user account
17:25:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89496&oldid=89494 * GingerIndustries * (+90) hello world
17:26:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89497&oldid=89496 * GingerIndustries * (+111)
17:27:01 <esolangs> [[User:GingerIndustries]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89498 * GingerIndustries * (+83) Created page with "Hello World! I created KonamiCode, a BrainF-inspired esoteric programming language."
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18:45:30 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89499 * GingerIndustries * (+3524) Created page with "'''KonamiCode''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:GingerIndustries]] that was designed to be similar to [[BrainFuck]] but slightly easier to use. Its..."
18:46:32 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89500&oldid=89499 * GingerIndustries * (+2)
18:46:52 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode/Hello World]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89501 * GingerIndustries * (+328) Created page with "<pre> v(^^^^^^^>^^) [writes 72 (or H) to address 0 in memory] >((>)) [prints it] v(^>>^) [writes 101 (or e) to address 1 in memory] >((>)) [prints it] v(^>>^^^^^^^^) [etc] >((..."
18:47:18 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode/Hello World]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89502&oldid=89501 * GingerIndustries * (+60)
18:52:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89503&oldid=89491 * GingerIndustries * (+17) Added KonamiCode
18:54:18 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89504&oldid=88658 * GingerIndustries * (+39) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
18:58:17 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89505&oldid=89500 * GingerIndustries * (+77) Added categories
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19:20:48 <oren> I created a function that uses the obscure "FBSTP" instruction to help convert an binary integer to a decimal string.
19:23:25 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/mlom.htm
19:25:14 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bcditoa.htm
19:25:43 <oren> this allows it to convert from binary to decimal without dividing anything by 10
19:29:43 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89506&oldid=83863 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+777) Added a section enumerating the mappings of numeric codes to letters, rectified the loop command example, and extended the description of the instruction r.
19:31:26 <oren> the x87 instruction set still supports a vestigial BCD converting instruction
19:33:33 <shachaf> http://0x80.pl/notesen/2013-11-07-fbstp.html -- looks like a great time.
19:35:01 <oren> yea most of these routines are much slower
19:37:11 <myname> if we are talking weird encodings, i put https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC into the pool
19:37:56 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89507&oldid=89506 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+5574) Added a hyperlink to my interpreter implementation on GitHub, introduced an exemplary implementation, and supplemented another example program.
19:38:48 <oren> I also wrote some string routines using the x86's specializee REPNZ SCASB and stuff. they are much slower than even naive loop
19:40:38 <oren> I haven't compared the x86 builtin CRC32 instructions to naive implementation yet
19:42:45 <oren> 0xF2,0x48,0x0F,0x38,0xF1,0007, // CRC32 64 bits from [RDI] into EAX
19:44:02 <zzo38> In some ways, TRON will be better than UTF-8, but in other ways worse; it depends on the specific application, I think. For one thing, TRON doesn't have the Han unification of Unicode, which in some cases is helpful. I am not trying to say that it is always better; I do not believe that any character encoding is "always better".
19:47:18 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode/Hello World]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89508&oldid=89502 * GingerIndustries * (+12)
19:47:56 <zzo38> Also not much information can be found very well; I have seen conflicting information about if it has combining characters and if it has modes with single byte characters.
19:57:32 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89509&oldid=89505 * GingerIndustries * (+372) Added infobox
19:58:09 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89510&oldid=89509 * GingerIndustries * (-6)
19:58:54 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89511&oldid=89510 * GingerIndustries * (+67)
19:59:30 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89512&oldid=89511 * GingerIndustries * (-2)
19:59:47 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89513&oldid=89512 * GingerIndustries * (+0)
20:33:05 <esolangs> [[Gravitasumma]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89514 * Threesodas * (+330) Created page with "'''gravitaSumma''' (from Latin ''gravitas summa'' meaning ''intense gravity'') is a simple programming language created in 2020 by [[user:threesodas|threesodas]] in order to s..."
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22:19:49 <zzo38> riv: About problems with Unicode, I will list some of them: homoglyphs, rather complexity in implementation, ambiguous character widths, properties (including character widths) needing changing due to new versions of Unicode (and possibly private characters), unification (including, but not limited to, Han unification) even for applications that don't want it and vice-versa, etc.
22:22:47 <zzo38> It also leads to bugs and misfeatures.
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23:32:04 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89515&oldid=87107 * Xorol * (-98)
00:10:45 <oren> I have a way of setting a 64-bit register to -1 in 4 bytes, namely REX.W 83 reg/1 -1
00:11:46 <oren> is there a way to do it in 3 bytes or less?
00:13:49 <shachaf> Is that or with -1 as a sign-extended 8-bit immediate?
00:15:19 <shachaf> I don't know anything better.
00:16:44 <shachaf> Hmm, 3 bytes is so short that you can brute-force search pretty easily.
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00:25:41 <oren> one idea i had was SBB from itself after setting CF
00:26:22 <oren> unfortunately that one is also 4 bytes, not 3
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00:26:57 <oren> it's 3 bytes for a 32 bit register tho
00:27:08 <oren> but so is the OR one
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00:34:12 <zzo38> I have seen the suggestion to just disallow non-ASCII characters in the source code, which I agree. (This does not preclude having functions dealing with other character encodings (including UTF-8, although functions should not be forced to use Unicode!), or from putting data in other files if non-ASCII text is needed.)
00:40:04 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89516&oldid=89515 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) /* Instructions */ fix typo
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02:43:06 <HackEso> 0: 6a ff pushq $0xffffffffffffffff \ 2: 58 pop %rax
02:45:10 <shachaf> Brute force to the rescue!
02:45:37 <shachaf> Brute-forcing this was pretty funny in various ways.
02:57:08 <oren> yea this makes sense because x86-64 stack instructions do 64 bits by default, unlike the other ones that do 32 bits by default
02:58:52 <oren> i was wondering how to brute dforce it- it would be difficult to avoid getting killed by undefined instruction exception i would think
02:59:42 <oren> i guess you could run each 3 bytes into a dissasembler and grep for -1?
03:05:00 <shachaf> I fork a new process for each one.
03:06:04 <shachaf> Originally it was misbehaving in all sorts of sneaky ways. The child would jump into the middle of the parent's code and start spawning its own children, and so on.
03:06:24 <shachaf> I switched to fork+exec and worked around some blatant misbehaviors and it seems to be going OK now, though it's very slow.
03:06:39 <shachaf> I think ~2000 instructions per second is a pretty good speed for a modern CPU to be running instructions at?
03:07:33 <shachaf> It would probably be better to use a debugging API to write the relevant instructions to memory and single-step through them and then check register state, and handle SIGILL and so on that way.
03:08:36 <shachaf> Who knew that a brute-force search over the space of all programs would find some sneaky programs that manage to get around your various safeguards?
03:15:38 <oren> ah that's an good approach. that way the original state of the uhh searcher program isn't messed up at least
03:50:20 <oren> in fact, stack operations can be used to reduce the size of a lot of stuff
03:50:57 <oren> e.g. mov %rax, %rcx is 3 bytes while push %rax, pop %rcx is 2
03:55:32 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89517&oldid=89449 * PixelatedStarfish * (+72)
03:56:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:FACTORY SHOWROOM.png]]"
04:03:22 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89519&oldid=89517 * PixelatedStarfish * (+418)
04:04:04 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89520&oldid=89519 * PixelatedStarfish * (-62)
04:04:51 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89521&oldid=89520 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
04:05:17 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89522&oldid=89521 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5)
04:06:34 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89523&oldid=89522 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
04:08:04 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89524&oldid=89523 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
04:12:19 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89525&oldid=89524 * PixelatedStarfish * (-305)
04:14:02 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89526&oldid=89525 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
04:14:54 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89527&oldid=89526 * PixelatedStarfish * (+23)
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06:29:36 <esolangs> [[Lento]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89528 * Xorol * (+77) Created page with "Lento is a variant of [[Python]] where each line takes 10 seconds to execute."
06:51:10 <oren> the six bytes {0xFC, 0122, 0131, 0xF3, 0xA4, 0xC3} are sufficient for memcpy
06:53:17 <oren> thanks to shachaf, who discovered that I had completely overlooked the stack opcodes
06:55:50 <zzo38> What happen if you want to make a PGP signature for a message that already contains "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----"?
06:57:44 <zzo38> I found RFC 4880 and will see if that will answer my question
07:04:32 <zzo38> It does; it says any line of the message starting with "-" must have "- " added in front.
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08:33:28 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0xfc, 0122, 0131 0xf3, 0xa4, 0xc3
08:33:32 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `0' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `0'
08:33:36 <shachaf> `asm .byte 0xfc, 0122, 0131, 0xf3, 0xa4, 0xc3
08:33:38 <HackEso> 0: fc cld \ 1: 52 push %rdx \ 2: 59 pop %rcx \ 3: f3 a4 rep movsb %ds:(%rsi),%es:(%rdi) \ 5: c3 retq
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09:13:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mellobacon * New user account
09:16:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89529&oldid=89497 * Mellobacon * (+161) /* Introductions */
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09:32:00 <wib_jonas> shachaf: in the form of the {OR RAX, imm8} instruction, is the imm8 sign-extended or zero-extended? if it's sign-extended then {OR RAX, -1} should work
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09:32:50 <wib_jonas> it won't be 3 bytes unless it's for RAX
09:34:04 <wib_jonas> "in fact, stack operations can be used to reduce the size of a lot of stuff" => yes, but that's usually a bad idea. it makes the decoder, the decoded operations loop cache, and the scheduler all work harder than they should
09:34:22 <wib_jonas> there's a good reason why the optimization manual recommends you to use one instruction instead of two whenever possible
09:41:42 <zzo38> My other ideas (I don't know what 64-bit x86 has or how many bytes they are, so they might not work) includes: zero and decrement, zero and bitwise NOT, XORN by itself, subtract from self with borrow; I don't know which if any of these will be work, and for which registers (they might be different depending which register you want)?
09:42:20 <zzo38> There might be even more confusing ways, whether involving floating points, address-based arithmetics, etc? I don't know.
09:42:57 <zzo38> Also, there might be some ways that depend on the previous state, which depending on the program you might be able to guarantee.
09:43:20 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89530&oldid=89465 * ArthroStar11 * (-1913) Blanked the page
09:45:23 <wib_jonas> the obvious idea is to reserve a register that has -1, then you can copy from that in 3 bytes
09:49:23 <zzo38> Yes, if your program doesn't use all of the registers for other purposes, then you can do that.
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10:11:46 <shachaf> wib_jonas: There's no imm8 or for RAX.
10:12:18 <shachaf> Looking at https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/or , the RAX variant takes imm32.
10:15:13 <wib_jonas> shachaf: sorry, you're right about that, I got my opcode table wrong.
10:17:11 <wib_jonas> in that case I'd just recommend using one of the four-byte methods, like {OR reg, -1} with a sign-extended imm8
10:18:19 <wib_jonas> or in fact sometimes the seven-byte {MOV reg, -1} may be better, to avoid the false dependency
10:19:35 <esolangs> [[Madlad]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89531 * Mellobacon * (+1372) Created page with "=MadLad= '''MadLad''' is an esoteric programming language meant to be similar to C# but with a twist. MadLad is a very angry language and will yell at you for everything. Feat..."
10:23:19 <esolangs> [[Madlad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89532&oldid=89531 * Mellobacon * (+98)
10:25:30 <esolangs> [[Madlad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89533&oldid=89532 * Mellobacon * (+11)
10:32:59 <shachaf> wib_jonas: I did find a 3-byte method with push and pop, above.
10:41:40 <int-e> why ...oh because of that stupid additional prefix that x86/64 needs to disambiguate modr/m registers.
10:41:59 <int-e> so the obvious or rax,-1 needs 4 bytes
11:01:12 <wib_jonas> shachaf: yes, but I still don't recommend that
11:03:43 <shachaf> My brute-force program found a bunch of other things but they were mostly red herrings that relied on memory layout being in various particular ways.
11:24:33 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89534&oldid=89488 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+99) Undo revision 89488 by [[Special:Contributions/Guy Fawkes Rep|Guy Fawkes Rep]] ([[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep|talk]]) : Mentioned the Korean language
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13:42:30 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89535&oldid=89513 * GingerIndustries * (+111) Added <<<
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18:44:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Twingamerdudes * New user account
18:49:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89536&oldid=89529 * Twingamerdudes * (+269) /* Introductions */
19:06:35 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89537&oldid=89535 * GingerIndustries * (+38)
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19:50:41 <esolangs> [[Rhoam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89538&oldid=71653 * SoundOfScripting * (+29) Added [[Category:Turning tarpits]]
19:52:06 <oren> hmm what if I used IP-relative addressing and put useful constants nearby outside the function
19:52:16 <esolangs> [[Wrapping Rhoam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89539&oldid=71655 * SoundOfScripting * (+29) Added [[Category:Turning tarpits]]
19:54:36 <oren> nah, there is no single-byte IP-relative offset
19:58:59 <int-e> hmm... so gcc/clang load the value into a temporary register for arithmetic with a full 64 bit value
19:59:26 <esolangs> [[M?!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89540&oldid=88978 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-2) Changed the category tag Unimplemented to Implemented.
19:59:37 <int-e> which I guess isn't so bad because there are all those extra general purpose registers
20:00:31 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89541&oldid=89507 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+25) Added the category tag Output only.
20:06:23 <esolangs> [[Mash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89542 * Twingamerdudes * (+3756) This is the wiki page for Mash
20:09:43 <esolangs> [[User:Twingamerdudes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89543 * Twingamerdudes * (+489) my pfp page
20:40:12 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89544&oldid=89542 * Twingamerdudes * (+29) This is the wiki page for Mash
20:52:40 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89545&oldid=89544 * Twingamerdudes * (+465) This is the wiki page for Mash
20:53:46 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89546&oldid=89545 * Twingamerdudes * (+13) Fixed formatting issues
20:54:08 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89547&oldid=89546 * Twingamerdudes * (-2)
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20:56:03 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89548&oldid=89547 * Twingamerdudes * (+21) /* Syntax */
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22:06:12 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89549&oldid=89503 * Twingamerdudes * (+11) Added mash
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22:12:07 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/c/gnembon/videos works at mojang now
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22:23:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89550&oldid=89549 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* M */ Fix order
22:28:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89551 * Twingamerdudes * (+218) Beginning of Mash Discussion
22:30:42 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89552&oldid=89548 * Twingamerdudes * (+12) /* Hello World */
22:35:46 <esolangs> [[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89553&oldid=34092 * PixelatedStarfish * (+300)
22:36:31 <esolangs> [[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89554&oldid=89553 * PixelatedStarfish * (-37)
22:36:46 <esolangs> [[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89555&oldid=89554 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
22:42:20 <zzo38> What if you want to display text with a semicolon? Also, one example says +_^ for gather input and other one says _+^ for gather input, and the specification says "put ^ in front of the _".
22:51:25 <Twingamerdudes> you can't print text with the semi colon, the semi colon represents the end of the string, and for the _+^ problem, that was a typo
22:51:55 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89556&oldid=89552 * Twingamerdudes * (+0) Fixed typo
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23:14:25 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89557&oldid=89556 * Twingamerdudes * (+189) /* Cat Program */
23:15:12 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89558&oldid=89557 * Twingamerdudes * (+43) /* Syntax */
23:19:31 <esolangs> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89559&oldid=89475 * Shaman * (+26)
23:20:16 <esolangs> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89560&oldid=89559 * Shaman * (+5)
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23:53:14 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89561&oldid=89534 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (-22)
23:54:37 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89562&oldid=89558 * Twingamerdudes * (+24) Added Category Low level
23:56:24 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89563&oldid=89562 * Twingamerdudes * (-13) /* Tips */
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00:57:12 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89564&oldid=89249 * PixelatedStarfish * (+94) /* Operation Codes */
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01:00:55 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89565&oldid=89564 * PixelatedStarfish * (+64) /* Grammar */
01:01:06 <Corbin> Twingamerdudes: Hi. Sorry to miss you the last couple times. What's up?
01:02:00 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89566&oldid=89565 * PixelatedStarfish * (+64) /* Grammar */
01:02:25 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89567&oldid=89566 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Grammar */
01:02:51 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89568&oldid=89567 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Grammar */
01:03:18 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89569&oldid=89568 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Grammar */
01:04:32 <Corbin> Trying to figure out unfolds in Cammy. Been stuck on it for a couple days now.
01:08:44 <Corbin> No worries. It's not broken; languages like Cammy haven't been explored much, so I don't know how to express common algorithms and data structures yet.
01:11:31 <Corbin> Like, on lists. Cammy has folds; given f : 1 -> X and g : Y × X -> X, we have (fold f g) : [Y] -> X. Classic simple recursion on lists.
01:12:11 <Corbin> But Cammy is total, and that makes unfolding harder to express, because traditional unfolds are not total; they can diverge and create infinitely-long lists.
01:12:44 <Twingamerdudes> alr, I can't understand any of that code above lol, but I can understand the concept I think
01:13:18 <Corbin> No worries. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy might help, but probably will just be more confusing. It's okay.
01:13:43 <imode> I'm still not familiar with what an unfold is.
01:14:44 <Corbin> imode: An unfold, or anamorphism, takes a seed value and a function, and generates the (infinite) list built by repeatedly applying the function to the seed value.
01:15:23 <imode> oh, huh. that's intuitive.
01:15:41 <imode> if it's total you really do have a problem.
01:16:50 <Corbin> Yep. My recent plan is to take a natural number and use it for the length of the list. Then the unfold will only take a fixed number of steps.
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01:18:23 <Corbin> `pr` is primitive recursion on natural numbers. Given f : 1 -> X and g : X -> X, (pr f g) : N -> X takes a natural number, creates a seed value from f, and then applies g repeatedly to build a value.
01:18:27 <HackEso> pr`? No such file or directory
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01:20:29 <Corbin> Yeah, one bite at a time, it's not so bad.
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01:34:01 <Twingamerdudes> I somehow managed to update my esolang 3 times today lol
01:34:37 <HackEso> 0: 0f 74 c0 pcmpeqb mm0,mm0
01:34:58 <ais523> that's another solution to setting a 64-bit register to -1 in three bytes
01:35:09 <ais523> (referring to an older conversation)
01:35:27 <ais523> so it turns out to be doable for both scalar and vector registers
01:35:55 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if the push-and-immediately-pop method hits that stall bug on Intel processors
01:35:59 <ais523> might be interesting to benchmark it
01:36:24 <Twingamerdudes> well, idk if it does, I don't focus on stuff like that
01:38:31 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how long it takes with LEA
01:38:49 <HackEso> 0: 48 8d 04 25 ff ff ff ff lea 0xffffffffffffffff,%rax
01:39:13 <ais523> oh right, the bitwidths are the wrong way round
01:39:18 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89570&oldid=89563 * Twingamerdudes * (+0) /* Tips */
01:40:05 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89571&oldid=89570 * Twingamerdudes * (+1) /* Tips */
01:40:55 <zzo38> I am also reminded of in Z-machine (which works with 16-bit numbers), there is a way to set a register to -1 with three bytes, but Infocom didn't use it and used five bytes instead. (The way with three bytes uses the BCOM (bitwise complement) instruction. I don't know enough about 64-bit x86 to know how many bytes it is on 64-bit x86, though)
01:43:12 <ais523> <oren> the six bytes {0xFC, 0122, 0131, 0xF3, 0xA4, 0xC3} are sufficient for memcpy ← on modern processors, the REP MOVSB near the end there is actually implemented by the processor using an incredibly complicated microcode function that works like standard library memcpys, switching between various algorithms based on what gives the best performance for the copy size, alignment, etc.
01:43:43 <ais523> although, it's still sometimes slower than the standard library version because the processor's branch prediction mechanism doesn't work on microcode, which slows down the startup a lot
01:44:07 <ais523> zzo38: on x86-64, most instructions take at least one more byte than they really should :-(
01:45:44 <ais523> a quick summary is that it's quite similar to 32-bit x86, except that the bytes 0x48-0x4f are all prefixes that make an instruction 64-bit (the bottom three bits are used to change which register you're using for various fields of the instruction, doubling the number of registers available)
01:46:42 <ais523> if you don't have the prefix, you get 32-bit instructions which zero the top half of every register they write to (for performance reasons)
01:46:59 <ais523> this means that in 64-bit code, basically every instruction starts with a 4 nybble
01:47:33 <ais523> (0x40-0x47 are also prefixes, they give you the extra registers while leaving the instruction 32/16/8-bit)
01:49:16 <ais523> this is why the solution for setting the register to -1 used push/pop, because those are 64 bits by default
01:50:38 <Corbin> ais523: Insightful. Well golfed.
01:51:37 <ais523> I think I generally prefer the vector unit instruction set to the scalar unit instruction set (although it's a bit odd that they're different)
01:52:05 <ais523> vector comparisons don't use flags, they return the comparison result in a vector, and they use the convention of true = -1, so you can zero a vector register by comparing it with itself
01:52:21 <ais523> fortunately, the 64-bit vector registers are the ones that don't use the prefix (because they got added first)
01:54:45 <ais523> `asm pcmpeqb %mm5, %mm5; pcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5; vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %xmm5; vpcmpeqb %ymm5, %ymm5, %ymm5; vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %k5; vcmpeqb %ymm5, %ymm5, %k5; vcmpeqb %zmm5, %zmm5, %k5
01:54:46 <HackEso> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `vcmpeqb %ymm5,%ymm5,%k5' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `vcmpeqb %zmm5,%zmm5,%k5' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `vpcmpeqb' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `vcmpeqb %ymm5,%ymm5,%k5' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `vcmpeqb %zmm5,%zmm5,%k5'
01:54:57 <ais523> `asm pcmpeqb %mm5, %mm5; pcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5; vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %xmm5; vpcmpeqb %ymm5, %ymm5, %ymm5
01:54:59 <HackEso> 0: 0f 74 ed pcmpeqb %mm5,%mm5 \ 3: 66 0f 74 ed pcmpeqb %xmm5,%xmm5 \ 7: c5 d1 74 ed vpcmpeqb %xmm5,%xmm5,%xmm5 \ b: c5 d5 74 ed vpcmpeqb %ymm5,%ymm5,%ymm5
01:55:48 <ais523> I wonder whether the AVX-512 instructions aren't programmed into `asm, or whether I got the syntax wrong
01:56:04 <ais523> (I'm not very familiar with them, I don't have an AVX-512 processor)
01:56:09 <sprout_> hmm, I am in the company of real men. maybe listen
02:01:58 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x62, 0x01, 0x55, 0x08, 0x74, 0xed
02:02:00 <HackEso> 0: 62 01 vpcmpeqb %xmm29,%xmm5,(bad) \ 2: 55 push %rbp \ 3: 08 .byte 0x8 \ 4: 74 ed je 0xfffffffffffffff3
02:02:31 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x62, 0x01, 0x55, 0x0d, 0x74, 0xed
02:02:33 <HackEso> 0: 62 01 vpcmpeqb %xmm29,%xmm5,(bad){%k5} \ 2: 55 push %rbp \ 3: 0d .byte 0xd \ 4: 74 ed je 0xfffffffffffffff3
02:03:48 <ais523> also that is some very weird error recovery from the disassembler
02:04:06 <ais523> `asm vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %k5
02:04:08 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 55 08 74 ed vpcmpeqb %xmm5,%xmm5,%k5
02:05:00 <ais523> `asm vpcmpeqb %ymm5, %ymm5, %k5
02:05:02 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 55 28 74 ed vpcmpeqb %ymm5,%ymm5,%k5
02:05:06 <ais523> `asm vpcmpeqb %xmm5, %xmm5, %k5
02:05:07 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 55 08 74 ed vpcmpeqb %xmm5,%xmm5,%k5
02:05:12 <ais523> `asm vpcmpeqb %zmm5, %zmm5, %k5
02:05:13 <HackEso> 0: 62 f1 55 48 74 ed vpcmpeqb %zmm5,%zmm5,%k5
02:05:28 <ais523> a complete set of set-register-to--1 instructions, probably
02:05:32 <Twingamerdudes> why is this account hackeso printing some output thing of your asm code
02:05:34 <ais523> (allowing for the ones we wrote earlier)
02:06:01 <HackEso> rev: cannot open abcde: No such file or directory
02:06:57 <ais523> it's a useful addition to conversations because it can be used to quickly test things, or to demonstrate a point
02:07:17 <ais523> also it's better at encoding AVX-512 instructions than I am, apparently
02:10:17 <ais523> I should get an up-to-date copy of AMD manuals, if/when they implement AVX-512; they're generally easier to read, especially when it comes to instruction encodings
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02:28:36 <shachaf> ais523: Not including VEX instructions, which encode the REX bits more efficiently, if I remember correctly.
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02:32:30 <ais523> shachaf: the VEX/EVEX prefixes come with an implied 4, i.e. you don't need (and can't use) a separate REX prefix because you have 4 bits for that purpose dedicated in the VEX/EVEX
02:33:23 <ais523> although, there are two VEX prefixes, a long and a short one – only the long version has room for all four of the REX prefix bits, the other one only has one (plus one more that has a similar purpose but affects the "v" register which non-vector instructions don't have)
02:33:24 <shachaf> Right. I guess it's not exactly "more efficient", it's just "not even less efficient".
02:33:51 <ais523> so if you happen to need one of the remaining bits of the REX prefix, that can force you from the short to the long VEX prefix and cost you just as much
02:34:04 <shachaf> When I was encoding x86 instructions I stopped before VEX.
02:34:14 <shachaf> How many registers should an instruction set have?
02:34:36 <ais523> and EVEX is sort-of like a superprefix that can handle any other combination of prefixes plus a lot more of its own, at the cost of being four bytes long
02:35:13 <ais523> register count is an interesting problem because modern processors have a lot more registers internally than the instruction set supports
02:35:34 <ais523> so what you actually need isn't so much a count of registers, but a method of specifying which instructions should connect to which other instructions
02:36:02 <shachaf> Sure, I mean register names.
02:36:17 <ais523> on most processors you do that by specifying the same register number in the two instructions, but I'm not convinced that that's the best option – in many cases it doesn't matter whether they both name %rcx or both name %rdx
02:36:22 <shachaf> Unless you do something entirely different like the Mill.
02:36:48 <ais523> right, the Mill has the right general idea (although I think they should have explicit outputs and implicit inputs rather than the other way round)
02:36:49 <shachaf> Which seems pretty nice to me but I don't know about the details of implementing it.
02:37:14 <shachaf> Ah, interesting, what would that look like?
02:37:14 <ais523> the Mill's approach doesn't scale
02:37:43 <ais523> each instruction would specify the number of instructions after which the result would be used
02:38:19 <ais523> so they don't specify inputs (other than memory inputs), only where the outputs go
02:38:21 <shachaf> And if an instruction takes multiple inputs it would have multiple previous instructions pointing to it?
02:38:42 <ais523> although, you probably want to explicitly say which argument you're pointing to
02:38:50 <shachaf> That sounds kind of awful to write for, even more than the Mill.
02:38:55 <ais523> the biggest downside of this is that you need some way to explicitly copy an output that's going to be used more than once
02:39:08 <shachaf> What's the benefit? That you don't have to emit things if you don't use them?
02:39:10 <ais523> the upside is that it scales really well, supporting pretty much arbitrary distances
02:39:30 <ais523> because the processor doesn't need fast codepaths for all possible distances, only for the small ones
02:39:51 <ais523> if an instruction says "use the result 100 instructions later" then it probably doesn't matter if that's implemented in a really slow way, it'll still get tehre in time
02:40:23 <ais523> in the Mill, though, if it says "use the result from 100 instructions ago" then the processor would either need to speculatively execute a very long way forwards, or else stall in order to find the value from wherever it was
02:40:46 <shachaf> Or you'd need to have occasional forwarding instructions as it's about to fall off the belt.
02:40:53 <ais523> because you can't realistically connect every execution unit to 100 different input sources within a single cycle
02:40:53 <shachaf> Which I think is what they do?
02:41:24 <Corbin> I think that they've described a technique for bumping values to keep them on the belt, but AIUI their prototype compiler always spills to memory instead.
02:41:30 <ais523> I think they use either registers or temporary memory for that, otherwise all the forwarding instructions would slow things down too much
02:42:05 <Corbin> ISTR that the Mill specifies fast scratch memory ("scratchpad") of some sort, so spills aren't as expensive as on x86/ARM.
02:42:13 <ais523> my mental model of my antibelt is to have fast interconnects for small values, some sort of shift register for medium values, and an L1-cache-like thing for large values
02:42:30 <ais523> where by "values" I mean distances
02:42:46 <ais523> spills aren't expensive even on x86
02:43:08 <Corbin> Huh. How does that sort of p-adic connectivity come about? That is pretty interesting.
02:43:39 <ais523> the AMD Zen 2 has memory spills that are as fast as registers are; it's widely speculated that it has some sort of cache for spilled registers
02:43:49 <ais523> although, the AMD Zen 3 doesn't, probably because it isn't worth the transistors
02:44:25 <shachaf> Is this the thing people call "memory renaming"?
02:44:43 <ais523> Intel has a three-cycle lockout for spills, if you spill a register you can't read the memory you spilled it to for three clock cycles (although the spill is done in the background so your program can do the rest of its execution during that time)
02:45:04 <ais523> shachaf: I haven't heard of that, but it would be an obvious parallel with register renaming
02:45:50 <ais523> the main drawbacks of spills are a) the instruction needed to spill, b) the memory read/write port usage which prevents you doing memory accesses in parallel, c) polluting the L1 cache
02:46:08 <ais523> (although spills to the stack don't pollute the L1 cache much, because that gets accessed all the time anyway so it tends to naturally be in L1)
02:49:05 <ais523> anyway, if you are using the register-names method of linking instructions, x86-64's 16 seem to generally be enough in my experience, just about
02:49:26 <ais523> the main time you run low is during procedure calls, due to calling conventions being inflexible
02:50:00 <ais523> and spills by their nature tend to be in the outer loops (which generally aren't performance-sensitive) as opposed to the inner loops (which are)
02:51:22 <ais523> although, in order to make some loops work, it's useful to have a very cheap MOV instruction available
02:52:05 <ais523> register-register MOV is very cheap on modern processors, it takes up resources in fetch and decode but not anywhere else, the instruction's handled by the register renamer rather than the normal execute units
02:52:43 <ais523> 4/cycle throughput, 0-cycle latency
02:54:00 <ais523> that compensates for one of the issues that registers have (that if you want to be able to assign to a particular register but still have the old value around, you need a MOV – often you need to do this because registers need to have the same name on every iteration of a loop, forcing you to use a particular register for something)
02:55:34 <ais523> like, say I have a loop where, on every iteration, I call a function, then write the sum of the five most recent return values of the function into an array
02:56:00 <ais523> unless I unroll it, this is going to need a ridiculous amount of MOV to keep the register names the same on every iteration
02:56:37 <ais523> because "most recent value" and "second-most recent value" and "third-most recent value" and "fourth-most recent value" and "fifth-most recent value" all need to be in registers, and need to be moved from one of those registers to another every iteration
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03:06:02 <ais523> hmm, I decided to code it to see what a compiler did with it: https://godbolt.org/z/MossdKGeo
03:07:36 <ais523> even with 16 registers, it has to spill two, because there are only 6 call-preserved registers in the x86-64 ABI (and it needs uses three of them to remember the array length, the array location, and the loop counter)
03:08:30 <ais523> …that's clearly beatable, you could store the array end location and current array position using just two registers and save a spill
03:09:13 <ais523> actually this code is amazingly optimizable
03:09:21 <ais523> let me try it in C, to see if the compilers do any better with that
03:10:10 <shachaf> Do calling conventions need to be inflexible?
03:11:01 <shachaf> Could a compiler easily just annotate each function with some extra metadata about how many registers it wants, so callers can save fewer registers?
03:12:31 <shachaf> Also, this vaguely reminds me of https://cr.yp.to/qhasm/20050210-fxch.txt which is kind of neat.
03:13:00 <shachaf> I wonder what happens with various alternatives to registers in these sorts of situations.
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03:15:16 <ais523> looks like gcc can save the spill, but clang can't (which explains why rustc couldn't, it uses the same backend as clang): https://godbolt.org/z/6End4sY7a
03:15:56 <ais523> although, gcc makes stack space for a second spill despite not actually doing the spill
03:16:31 <ais523> <shachaf> Do calling conventions need to be inflexible? Could a compiler easily just annotate each function with some extra metadata about how many registers it wants, so callers can save fewer registers? ← I think compilers could and ought to do that, but in practice they don't
03:16:36 <ais523> I've actually been really tempted to write my own that does
03:19:54 <ais523> one interesting thing that both compilers did was to zero %rax (a call-clobbered register) before making the function call
03:20:22 <ais523> there's got to be a good reason for that, if both clang and gcc are doing it, but I don't offhand know what it is
03:20:30 <shachaf> That's the varargs convention, right?
03:20:38 <shachaf> rax stores the number of floating point registers used, or something?
03:20:41 <ais523> oh, duh, I just realised that
03:20:43 <ais523> and then saw your comment saying it
03:21:05 <ais523> it is, I forgot to put "void" in the arguments list
03:21:14 <shachaf> I think a "()" function pointer can't be used for varargs, but I'm not sure.
03:21:20 <ais523> if I do, the zeroing of %rax disappears
03:21:57 <ais523> or, well, it might not be varargs, but the compiler doesn't have any proof it isn't varargs
03:22:08 <shachaf> I thought it was allowed to assume that in this situation.
03:22:16 <shachaf> At least someone told me that once.
03:22:55 <ais523> even with --std=c11 the compiler doesn't assume it isn't varargs unless I put an explicit 'void' in there
03:23:28 <ais523> maybe this is backwards compatibility with the pre-<stdarg.h> varargs mechanism?
03:24:07 <shachaf> I guess any "()" function is sort of using a deprecated mechanism so who knows.
03:25:40 <ais523> <System V ABI> For calls that may call functions that use varargs or stdargs (prototype-less calls or calls to functions containing ellipsis (...) in the declaration) %al is used as hidden argument to specify the number of vector registers used.
03:27:12 <ais523> so I guess it's required by the standard, due to the possibility of calling a non-stdarg varargs function
03:28:54 <ais523> btw, in addition to varying the calling convention per-function to change which registers are call-preserved, I think it's useful to change it per-function in other ways
03:30:06 <ais523> such as stack alignment, and even the representation of data types (e.g. if a function is going to start by sign-extending its 16-bit arguments to 32 bits regardless, it makes sense to ask the caller to do that in case the caller can do it as a side effect of another instruction rather than needing a separate movsx instruction)
03:32:22 <ais523> although you probably need a consistent convention for function pointers
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03:44:41 <fizzie> A "() function" pointer can indeed not be used to call a varargs function.
03:45:40 <fizzie> C11 6.5.2.2p6: "If the expression that denotes the called function has a type that does not include a prototype -- [and if] the function is defined with a type that includes a prototype, and -- the prototype ends with an ellipsis `(, ...)` -- the behavior is undefined."
03:46:22 <shachaf> I guess C11 and the System V ABI disagree on this.
03:47:10 <fizzie> It also can't be used to call a non-varargs function that has parameters with types that are changed by default argument promotions, but that's more obvious.
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07:41:56 <b_jonas> ais523: would it be against the spirit of that exercise to store some of those five values in an xmm register, both because then you have extra call-preserved space, and because you can shift four ints in it with a shufps instruction?
07:45:22 <b_jonas> oh yeah, you also get to use the phadd instruction to add the five numbers with just three instructions instead of four
07:47:23 <b_jonas> (or with just paddd if you reuse both the shifted and the original version and you're writing avx2 code)
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10:09:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89572&oldid=89333 * AmNow * (+28) cool
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11:58:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CuFeNiCoZn * New user account
12:03:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89573&oldid=89536 * CuFeNiCoZn * (+188) /* Introductions */
12:04:45 <esolangs> [[User:CuFeNiCoZn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89574 * CuFeNiCoZn * (+9) Created page with "test test"
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12:14:07 <esolangs> [[Call/cc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89575&oldid=71449 * CuFeNiCoZn * (-285) Remove subjective wording
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12:56:18 <riv> hey why dont people prove that some 1D CAs are turing complete without infinite input?
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12:56:25 <riv> its about time right?
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13:12:43 <int-e> riv: It's boring at that level of generality; any TM can be implemented by a 1D CA
13:13:02 <riv> i mean rule 30 and stuff
13:13:18 <int-e> so you mean a specific 1D CA.
13:13:24 <riv> wait i forget is rule 30 the same as rule 110
13:13:38 <riv> yes a specific one, but it could be any of them - i think only rule 30 has been looked at
13:15:44 <int-e> I thought Wolfram (and probably others before him) looked at all of them and only a few of them showed chaotic enough behavior to be plausibly TC
13:16:08 <riv> by looked at i mean.. someone actually showed its turing complete
13:18:18 <int-e> also rule 30 isn't the same as rule 110
13:23:04 <int-e> riv: anyway, why don't you do it
13:23:19 <int-e> don't leave it to people
13:24:01 <riv> i was thinking that it would be really difficult
13:25:00 <riv> basically one needs to come up with predictable gadgets inside that random mess, that seems like the hard part. then (if you have enough) you can probably just combine them to make up a language
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14:06:34 <riv> or there could be other ways? any ideas?
14:07:10 <riv> I suppose you have a big problem of dealing with having to loop over 2^n cases, if you want to brute force search for stuff
14:11:13 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89576&oldid=89569 * PixelatedStarfish * (-25) /* Grammar */
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14:38:07 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89577&oldid=89537 * GingerIndustries * (+397) Added Turing completeness
14:38:42 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89578&oldid=89577 * GingerIndustries * (+12) /* Special numbers */
14:40:40 <riv> i guess you want some kind of memory cell that you can repeat
14:41:32 <riv> so ideally you would want to find 2 patterns A,B sch that some X in L[AB]+R would eventually give you back X
14:46:56 <riv> although it would be okay for these things to be sequences
14:47:15 <riv> A_i becomes A_{i+1}
14:47:32 <riv> i wonder if there are any completely different approaches
14:47:37 <riv> maybe this kind of thing is too structural
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15:37:01 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89579&oldid=89550 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16)
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18:09:37 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89581&oldid=89580 * PixelatedStarfish * (-106) /* Error Messages */
18:41:28 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89582&oldid=89581 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12) /* Operation Codes */
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20:42:43 <zzo38> I had the complaint before about implicit token names in Magic: the Gathering, but it looks like they fixed this now (perhaps not in quite the same way that I did, but what they did works too).
20:44:24 <riv> I don't know what implicit token names are
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20:55:32 <zzo38> When an effect creates tokens without specifying their names.
20:55:52 <riv> and what is the problem with that?
20:56:02 <riv> a name is desired?
20:57:06 <riv> have you considered using 1D CA for computation?
20:57:16 <riv> like rule 110
20:59:12 <riv> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_cellular_automaton
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21:04:32 <zzo38> They already had names assigned automatically and still do, but befor, the names could previously match the names of cards even if they didn't specifically say a name of a card; now they won't match.
21:10:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: how did they fix it?
21:11:10 <b_jonas> so the names made of subtypes no longer match the normal names?
21:12:06 <b_jonas> Hollow Dogs still aren't skeletons apparently. that's the only fix I'd care about :-)
21:15:11 <b_jonas> there's a certain rules change about multiplayer that I'd like, namely that if you resign, then you are immediately no longer allowed to make the decisions that the rules and cards call for, just like with the current rules, but most of the other effects of losing the game, like removing your cards from the game, don't happen immediately, but only the next time that state-based effects are processed
21:16:23 <b_jonas> I'd like this because you can resign any time, which is reasonable because if the player person has to leave for some reason then there's no point the rules should pretend that that they can't do that, and it makes sense that they can no longer make decisions too,
21:16:46 <b_jonas> but the part that moves objects between zones is awkward to process if it's allowed any time
21:17:53 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89583&oldid=89571 * Twingamerdudes * (+56) Added new comparison and fixed a example
21:19:33 <b_jonas> and state-based actions are designed for this: we don't want objects to move immediately any time when they have lethal damage, so we only move them at state-based action time.
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21:51:26 <zzo38> How can I mirror a collection of documents from Wayback archive without the JavaScripts, CSS, and other HTML commands that have been added by Wayback archive?
22:08:44 <int-e> apparently you can append id_ to the timestamp and it'll do that... http://web.archive.org/web/20211112211213id_/https://example.com/
22:09:02 <int-e> via https://github.com/hartator/wayback-machine-downloader/blob/master/lib/wayback_machine_downloader.rb#L271
22:09:31 <int-e> https://archive.org/help/wayback_api.php doesn't say anything about that
22:11:35 <fizzie> https://archive.org/post/1008502/faq-on-id_-wayback-toolbar-removal -- apparently it used to be in the FAQ, but disappeared.
22:12:10 <fizzie> A more suspicious mind might think of some collusion with the third-party sites that, for a fee, "recover" your site from archive.org, that they do still link to.
22:13:22 <int-e> Ah, it makes sense that wikipedia would want to document this kind of thing.
22:17:36 <zzo38> OK, for downloading a single file, adding "id_" works. However, I want to download an entire set of files.
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00:55:24 <ais523> b_jonas: *all* the vector registers are call-clobbered
00:55:46 <ais523> which is ridiculous, but necessary for code compiled against different vector units to be able to link to each other
00:58:06 <ais523> (actually I'm not sure about the last 16 %zmm registers, which didn't exist at the time the ABI was written – some of those could reasonably be call-preserved because code that isn't aware of them has no way of mentioning them and thus can't clobber them by mistake)
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01:13:05 <zzo38> Then, maybe should allow to make calling conventions that can be supersets/subsets of other calling conventions, so that in some cases it might be possible to specify a function of a different calling convention than expected but can still work. There might also be some cases (although probably not common) that is possible to convert a calling convention by address adjustment.
01:16:18 <zzo38> Maybe then it will not be necessary to make all of the vector registers to be call-clobbered.
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01:33:21 <Twingamerdudes83> or, it could have gone stuck, I mean, it has same color as when I was logged into it
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01:36:23 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89584&oldid=89583 * Twingamerdudes * (+134) Added else statment
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01:40:18 <Corbin> Twingamerdudes: If you register your account, then you can tell IRC services that your old connection is a "ghost" and that the nickname should be reassigned to you.
01:40:38 <Corbin> Because this kicks the old connection, it can't be done with unregistered nicks.
01:46:34 <oerjan> riv: i don't know about the random mess of rule 30, but rule 110 _does_ have gadgets (the gliders), but the known construction needs an infinite pattern. you'd need to find some kind of glider gun. also you'd need to make it work in a field that only expands leftwards, because rule 110 cannot grow rightwards into a 0 field.
01:48:55 <oerjan> on the bright side, i once investigated how rule 110 grows leftwards, and it's so fast that nothing can catch up to it and can be made to behave essentially as if it were a preexisting leftwards infinite "ether" pattern.
01:49:51 <oerjan> (alternatively, there are variants where it also spouts rightwards gliders in the process. which i suppose _is_ a kind of glider gun, but with limited number of options.)
01:51:07 <oerjan> oh iirc some of the options were actually _leftwards_ gliders, just not as fast as the expansion itself.
01:53:06 <Corbin> Twingamerdudes: Fun! I'm glad that you're contributing.
01:56:37 <oerjan> actually there may have always been gliders, but some were fast enough to never interfere
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02:03:02 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/r110.txt is the mess where i listed the options
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03:00:27 <esolangs> [[Alisj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89585&oldid=88998 * Squidmanescape * (+988)
03:05:27 <esolangs> [[Alisj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89586&oldid=89585 * Squidmanescape * (-51)
03:12:06 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89587&oldid=89318 * Squidmanescape * (+12)
03:14:46 <esolangs> [[Positional]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89588 * Xorol * (+252) Created page with "Positional is a chess-based esolang. As the name suggests, it parses a chess position as code. Still WIP, but here's what I'm thinking: * Storage system that is an array with..."
03:20:27 <esolangs> [[No.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89589&oldid=75655 * Squidmanescape * (+167)
03:36:00 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89590&oldid=89587 * Squidmanescape * (+77)
03:40:09 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89591&oldid=89590 * Squidmanescape * (-1)
03:40:45 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89592&oldid=89591 * Squidmanescape * (-57)
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05:51:53 <esolangs> [[Arepo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89593 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+5859) Created a page for Arepo
05:55:05 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89594&oldid=87385 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+63) Added new languages to list
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12:03:11 <b_jonas> ais523: ah sorry, you're right that all the xmm registers are scratch registers on unix. but I think you have the reasoning backwards. registers that don't yet exist when the abi is decided must be scratch registers, because user-space context changes can't preserve them if the implementation of the context change functions were written before those registers existed.
12:04:19 <b_jonas> also the top of ymm registers also didn't yet exist when the ABI was decided, because the first x86_64 cpus only have SSE2, and my old home computer had an x86_64 cpu that only has SSE4_1 instructions but no AVX so no ymm registers
12:06:43 <riv> thanks for the info oerjan!
12:14:39 <b_jonas> oh and, this might be obvious but it took me a while to realize. do you know why the existing 128-bit vector register instructions from SSE2 must preserve the top of ymm registers, even though this is clearly bad both because the cpu has to do extra work to keep the top halves, and inconvenient for new software that uses ymm? it's because there can be existing interrupt handler (or signal handler)
12:14:45 <b_jonas> functions using those old instructions, and they must not change the top of ymm registers because the function that the interrupt handler interrupted might be using it. on the other hand, the new AVX instructions aren't limited this way, so they zero the top of ymm registers when they write to an xmm register.
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13:51:09 <esolangs> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89595&oldid=73676 * FAKE1007 * (-2657) Replaced content with "<!-- trash, deprecated and forgotten --> /del"
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19:47:23 <fizzie> Getting a little tired of every single thing I run printing a few "this version of `which' is deprecated; use `command -v' in scripts instead." messages. :/
20:07:06 <int-e> fizzie: Yeah that is such a useless message when you invoke a third party script or program.
20:09:06 <int-e> though hmm, I don't see it much? `thunderbird` has a wrapper script using `which`
20:10:00 <int-e> Hmm I guess the "intelligent" bash autocompletion would be susceptible too.
20:43:36 <fizzie> I was building OpenWRT.
20:43:43 <fizzie> The build process and other assorted scripts do a lot of it.
20:47:47 <int-e> fizzie: you /could/ comment out the 4th line in /usr/bin/which :P
20:50:09 <int-e> or prefix it with something like [[ -z "$QUIET_WHICH" ]] &&
21:21:59 <esolangs> [[Arepo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89596&oldid=89593 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+1593) Finished page for now
21:29:30 <esolangs> [[Arepo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89597&oldid=89596 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+141) Thought of a couple more ideas
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21:55:32 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89598&oldid=83256 * Quintopia * (-828) This algorithm is in all ways superseded by Urban's original below it, so removing it to clean up a very long page.
22:09:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sunarch * New user account
22:19:22 <zzo38> Do you have 8x8 fonts for some other IBM code pages? (Later I can add other sizes too, and also multibyte encodings, but currently not.)
22:39:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89599&oldid=89573 * Sunarch * (+196) /* Introductions */
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00:49:03 <zzo38> TRON time starts at 1985 (instead of 1970 like UNIX time does). TRON defines sixteen mouse cursor shapes, all of which are shapes of hands. TRON also has its own instruction set, which includes instruction for queue manipulation, too. (TRON is also listed in the "User:Ian/Computer_architectures" in esolang wiki.) (Note: Much of information is Japanese, so I may have made some mistakes.)
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01:09:04 <imode> TRON? as in.. the movie?
01:09:11 <imode> or is there an esolang.
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01:17:51 <zzo38> (Although, it may be possible making up esolang that is using the TRON character codes or TRON time codes or whatever)
01:30:03 <zzo38> It is "The Real-time Operating-system Nucleus".
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01:41:07 <imode> can you give me like a link.
01:41:35 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project has a bunch of links.
01:42:41 <imode> queue manipulation, huh.
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02:27:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Juliesinspaaace * New user account
02:32:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89600&oldid=89599 * Juliesinspaaace * (+246) Added my introduction
02:37:13 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89601&oldid=86714 * Juliesinspaaace * (+161) Added link to YABFC
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03:09:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89602&oldid=89579 * Mellobacon * (+13) /* M */
03:10:26 <esolangs> [[Madlad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89603&oldid=89533 * Mellobacon * (+0)
03:24:03 <zzo38> I tried to translate some of the TRON documentation from Japanese into English (and looking at other files too, to figure out some things I could not figure out or that are not mentioned in one of them, such as the D type (64-bits)), but probably it is all mixed up, because I am not very good Japanese.
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06:09:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Terrible]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89604 * Xorol * (+68) Created page with "Can this be deleted? ~~~"
06:40:20 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89605&oldid=89516 * Xorol * (+162)
06:42:05 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89606&oldid=89228 * Xorol * (+146) Added an implementation in [[Numbers]]
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09:56:23 <esolangs> [[E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89607&oldid=89279 * Squidmanescape * (+54)
09:56:54 <esolangs> [[E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89608&oldid=89607 * Squidmanescape * (+0)
10:03:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dj1vs * New user account
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11:32:13 <Melvar> Wait, what’s this about deprecated `which`?
11:42:39 <riv> https://lwn.net/Articles/874049/
11:42:41 <riv> so annoying
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11:55:30 <Melvar> Huh. Never knew it wasn’t standardized, nor that it was implemented as a shell script anywhere (my system has a shell function wrapping GNU which).
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13:51:29 <fizzie> The part I don't understand is this insinuation that `command -v` is equivalent, when it blatantly isn't.
13:53:01 <fizzie> The `which` commands looks up executables in the path, `command -v` prints shell built-ins as just a name and aliases with a messy alias definition. Sure, it's "more correct" in terms of what the shell would execute given that as a command line, but maybe you *wanted* the executable, even when there's a builtin or alias with the same name.
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15:02:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89609&oldid=89600 * Dj1vs * (+128) /* Introductions */
15:03:00 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89610&oldid=89001 * Dj1vs * (+83)
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15:22:49 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89611&oldid=89064 * Corbin * (+461) Fix example at top of page. Relax titles. Explain how to use floating-point object.
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15:37:02 <esolangs> [[!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89612&oldid=89610 * Dj1vs * (+6)
16:49:26 <Franciman> I saw the link on lobste.rs to Cammy
16:52:39 <Corbin> Yeah, I finally decided to share it.
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17:31:41 <fizzie> I keep forgetting about fungot.
17:31:42 <fungot> fizzie: where is macro tutorial? for scheme48?
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19:40:07 <Melvar> fizzie: You cannot rely on that. In some shells, `which` is a builtin and thus also knows about aliases and functions. GNU `which` supports receiving aliases and shell functions on standard input with a couple options, which is meant to be wrapped in a shell function to feed those in.
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19:43:09 <Melvar> So, if I use `which which`, it will print a bash function definition wrapping /usr/bin/which, which is GNU `which`.
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22:24:00 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89613&oldid=89582 * PixelatedStarfish * (+58) /* Error Messages */
22:24:27 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89614&oldid=89613 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Hello World */
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22:26:07 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89615&oldid=89614 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
22:26:16 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89616&oldid=89561 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+22) Undo revision 89561 by [[Special:Contributions/Guy Fawkes Rep|Guy Fawkes Rep]] ([[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep|talk]])
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23:54:24 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89617&oldid=89616 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (-22) This is annoying
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02:15:53 <esolangs> [[5D 5D Brainfuck With Multiverse Time Travel With Multiverse Time Travel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89618&oldid=79216 * Oerjan * (-4) /* Computational class */ Doesn't need a link to a useless page
02:16:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Terrible]]": Not esoteric or particularly useful
02:18:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Terrible]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89619&oldid=89604 * Oerjan * (+185) Done
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02:41:32 <esolangs> [[.Gertrude]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89620&oldid=40473 * Oerjan * (+27) /* External resources */ Add category people seem to be using
02:45:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89621 * Oerjan * (+225) Stop.
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05:51:22 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89622&oldid=89617 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+22) Undo revision 89617 by [[Special:Contributions/Guy Fawkes Rep|Guy Fawkes Rep]] ([[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep|talk]])
05:51:43 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89623&oldid=89615 * PixelatedStarfish * (+39) /* Operation Codes */
05:52:22 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89624&oldid=89623 * PixelatedStarfish * (-40) /* Operation Codes */
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07:53:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ian/Computer architectures]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89625 * Zzo38 * (+445) TRON instruction set
08:15:16 <esolangs> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89626&oldid=53577 * Quintopia * (+82) /* Hello, World! */
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10:01:13 <esolangs> [[Purple]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89627&oldid=89626 * Quintopia * (+990) python 3
10:03:02 <esolangs> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89628&oldid=89627 * Quintopia * (+17) formatting
10:05:37 <esolangs> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89629&oldid=89628 * Quintopia * (+0) f strings are better
10:17:42 <esolangs> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89630&oldid=89629 * Quintopia * (+8) nice to see the array in the correct order
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12:28:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Turk * New user account
12:38:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89631&oldid=89609 * Turk * (+180)
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16:54:26 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ7bcCrJMHc
16:54:33 <riv> A Brief Introduction to Esoteric Programming Languages
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18:01:45 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89632&oldid=89405 * Rphii * (+966) improvement on many details
18:24:50 <esolangs> [[User:TheThunderGuyS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89633&oldid=79572 * TheThunderGuyS * (+175) Add things
18:32:36 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89634&oldid=89601 * TheThunderGuyS * (+159) Add brainfuck.h
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20:24:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tin4.schneider * New user account
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21:25:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skreks * New user account
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21:51:20 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89635&oldid=89584 * Twingamerdudes * (+1303) Added math operators and the calculator program.
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22:28:57 <esolangs> [[Purple]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89636&oldid=89630 * Quintopia * (-67) /* Hello, World! */
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23:58:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89637&oldid=82561 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+359) Please don't undo my edits.
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00:49:24 <oerjan> fungot: are you there today?
00:49:24 <fungot> oerjan: at work i do mostly php/ postgres db work
00:49:48 <fungot> oerjan: can't start a match between your foo and foo for two different things :-p) if that's what confused you
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00:50:16 <oerjan> fungot: well i'm still confused hth
00:50:16 <fungot> oerjan: i think some people have the same shortcomings as c ( like unsafety). hence, the denotation of the top-level y you had defined.
00:50:33 <fungot> oerjan: and make a frontend to produce the effect of adding 2 to t and canceling out the effect that the srfi group would be interested in.
00:50:58 <oerjan> fungot: i'm not sure they would like that.
01:05:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89638&oldid=89621 * Oerjan * (+270) I said stop.
01:09:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89639&oldid=89637 * Oerjan * (+148) /* Political party rule violation */ No.
01:10:18 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89640&oldid=89225 * Squidmanescape * (+124)
01:10:42 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89641&oldid=89640 * Squidmanescape * (+5)
01:10:53 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89642&oldid=89641 * Squidmanescape * (+1) /* =Cat */
01:12:24 <fizzie> fungot: Do you even do any work? I just thought you hang around in IRC all day.
01:12:24 <fungot> fizzie: scheme48 is good enough for ben franklin, it's good contrast to my other linux box. actually, not so far into the book
01:14:22 <fizzie> Which reminds me, the fungot box needs a reboot as well, so there will be a short further outage.
01:14:22 <fungot> fizzie: process 2 killed. and,
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01:32:18 * oerjan suspects whereever that franklin part came from ended with "good enough for me"
01:40:11 <b_jonas> fungot, did you feel governor Tarkin's foul stench when you were brought to the station?
01:40:12 <fungot> b_jonas: my alter ego to reconnect.
02:00:41 <oerjan> apparently fungot has a dark side
02:00:42 <fungot> oerjan: ' k. it _cannot_ be p. p. lovecraft, the colour out of space time, the website lets you choose files etc.
02:01:10 <oerjan> fungot: no it was star wars-related
02:01:11 <fungot> oerjan: they call them in danish, but also the ability to pull something like that
02:02:46 <oerjan> fungot: Det kan sgu ikke passe.
02:02:47 <fungot> oerjan: the riddle isn't working properly, you end up with dependency hell did you get
02:03:15 <fungot> oerjan: 1sec let me show php programmers them! don't do it
02:03:41 <Corbin> fungot: I think your riddles work properly.
02:03:41 <fungot> Corbin: 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf8,16,32,64 funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda
02:04:46 <Corbin> fungot: What a beautiful riddle. Thank you for sharing it with us.
02:04:47 <fungot> Corbin: you're right, no such thing as drop bears!", fnord
02:06:06 <oerjan> Corbin: i know the answer *MWAHAHAHA*
02:17:10 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89643&oldid=89642 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-9) /* Examples */ Formatting p
03:06:34 <zzo38> Maybe, in the program to convert a picture to a specified palette, should also be the option to force all pixels to be different colours; I don't know maybe it might be useful sometimes.
03:27:40 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89644&oldid=89624 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Operation Codes */
03:28:14 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89645&oldid=89644 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Operation Codes */
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04:16:45 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89646&oldid=89594 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+15) Remembered Pytho existed
04:24:01 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89647&oldid=89645 * PixelatedStarfish * (+138) /* Program Examples */
04:34:49 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89648&oldid=89647 * PixelatedStarfish * (+11) /* Truth Machine */
04:35:08 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89649&oldid=89648 * PixelatedStarfish * (-11) /* Truth Machine */
04:47:59 <Corbin> Hopefully easy question that I don't want to take to TCS SE yet: Suppose we break up a Turing-complete machine into discrete small steps. What's the minimum complexity possible for those steps?
04:48:57 <Corbin> I know that, measuring steps relative to input and program size, PTIME complexity is possible. That's easy though. Is LOGSPACE possible?
05:09:24 <esolangs> [[Expressions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89650 * DigitalDetective47 * (+6441) Created page with "'''Expressions''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:DigitalDetective47]] based around redefining the results of calculations. It has a syntax simil..."
05:10:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89651&oldid=89602 * DigitalDetective47 * (+18) /* E */
05:11:11 <esolangs> [[User:DigitalDetective47]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89652&oldid=89231 * DigitalDetective47 * (+18) Add Expressions to esolang list.
05:21:50 <oerjan> Corbin: for a Turing machine implemented as a tape with a state marker at the current position, a single step is just a three-character search and replace
05:25:39 <oerjan> no more than LOGSPACE, anyway, if you implement it as an array with a pointer
05:27:36 <oerjan> (the finite automaton is a transducer, i suppose.)
05:28:25 <Corbin> That makes sense. I was worried that it wouldn't count because the marker for the tape positions can grow arbitrarily.
05:30:34 <oerjan> the marker doesn't need to grow if it's put _at_ that position.
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07:01:42 <wareya> https://github.com/wareya/funkshunL
07:01:52 <wareya> I made a very bad non-turing-complete language and implemented a brainfuck "interpreter" in it
07:03:01 <wareya> I say "interpreter" because the length of the interpreter has to grow linearly with respect to the runtime of the program
07:20:34 <zzo38> You could add in esolang wiki, if you want to do
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10:09:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89653&oldid=89638 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+42) Wrong link
10:09:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89654&oldid=89653 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+0)
10:12:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89655&oldid=89639 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+144) account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (frequent undo the same page
10:12:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Acrostic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89656 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+52) Created page with "could you add "lakh" and "crore" into the dictionary"
10:40:42 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89657&oldid=89655 * Corbin * (+196) /* Personal note */ Cringe.
11:40:12 <esolangs> [[User:Dj1vs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89658 * Dj1vs * (+0) Created blank page
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14:04:44 <esolangs> [[KonamiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89659&oldid=89578 * GingerIndustries * (+0)
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14:45:09 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89660&oldid=88374 * RocketRace * (+428) Bound station N & K specification
14:45:37 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89661&oldid=89660 * RocketRace * (-1) Revision*
14:55:06 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89662&oldid=89661 * RocketRace * (+500) Specify duplicate linkedness
14:56:06 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89663&oldid=89662 * RocketRace * (+1) Paragraphing
14:58:48 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89664&oldid=89663 * RocketRace * (+140) Specify bubble & lens substitutions
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14:59:26 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89665&oldid=89664 * RocketRace * (-8) phrasing
15:01:45 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89666&oldid=89665 * RocketRace * (+120) Changelog entry
15:02:08 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89667&oldid=89666 * RocketRace * (-1) is
15:06:21 <esolangs> [[Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89668&oldid=89667 * RocketRace * (+128) External links
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16:00:29 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1248.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:02:45 <HackEso> Thanks, HackEso. ThackEso.
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17:47:27 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89669&oldid=88322 * Spargle * (-108) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */
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18:36:33 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89670 * PixelatedStarfish * (+265) Created page with "[[Nagawooki]] is a [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution| trivial bf substitution]] created by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] for giggles. The language is named for a nonsense word coine..."
18:36:45 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89671&oldid=89670 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
18:41:42 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89672&oldid=89671 * PixelatedStarfish * (+976)
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18:42:57 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89673&oldid=89672 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Command Lines Table */
18:43:22 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89674&oldid=89673 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Commands */
18:43:31 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89675&oldid=89674 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) /* Command Lines Table */
18:44:19 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89676&oldid=89484 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16) /* In Chronological Order */
18:44:27 <riv> shall we have a celebration next time there is a leap second
18:45:18 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89677&oldid=89676 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Unimplemented Languages */
18:45:26 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89678&oldid=89677 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Toddler */
18:45:41 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89679&oldid=89678 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16) /* Bf Equivalents */
18:47:16 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89680&oldid=89679 * PixelatedStarfish * (+143) /* Bf Equivalents */
18:47:25 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89681&oldid=89680 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Nagawooski */
18:48:28 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89682&oldid=89681 * PixelatedStarfish * (+57) /* Bf Equivalents */
18:48:43 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89683&oldid=89682 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_equivalents Bf Equivalents */
18:49:47 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89684&oldid=89675 * PixelatedStarfish * (+36)
18:50:06 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89685&oldid=89684 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18)
18:55:35 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89686&oldid=89685 * PixelatedStarfish * (+312)
18:59:55 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89687&oldid=89686 * PixelatedStarfish * (-9) /* Hello World */
19:01:28 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89688&oldid=89687 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello World */
19:01:39 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89689&oldid=89688 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Hello World */
19:06:58 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89690&oldid=89689 * PixelatedStarfish * (+29)
19:15:13 <riv> the robot puts too many messages
19:15:21 <riv> it makes it hard to chat with people
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19:23:47 <riv> https://newsroom.ibm.com/2021-11-16-IBM-Unveils-Breakthrough-127-Qubit-Quantum-Processor
19:23:49 <zzo38> You could hide messages that you do not want
19:23:51 <riv> is this good?
19:23:58 <riv> zzo38: but it only hides them for me
19:24:05 <riv> btw, hello - good to see you
19:24:19 <riv> did you continue working on MTG and texnicard things? and free hero mesh
19:25:33 <zzo38> riv: On Free Hero Mesh, yes. I have not worked on the other things much recently, but I have done work on Free Hero Mesh, and would like some more people to join the project too (there is the #freeheromesh channel on this Libera IRC, and also a NNTP server)
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20:01:03 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89691 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1038) Created page with "==Command Table== {| class="wikitable" !Command !! Substitute !! Description |- | style="text-align:center"| <code>></code> |Spider|| Move the pointer to the right |- | st..."
20:04:55 <esolangs> [[Expressions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89692&oldid=89650 * DigitalDetective47 * (-37) Removed factorial program as it didn't work and added substr function.
20:08:05 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89693&oldid=89691 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Command Table */
20:13:25 <esolangs> [[Nagawooski]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89694&oldid=89690 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Command Table */
20:15:08 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89695&oldid=89693 * PixelatedStarfish * (+255)
20:15:58 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89696&oldid=89683 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19)
20:16:27 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89697&oldid=89696 * PixelatedStarfish * (+40) /* Bf Equivalents */
20:17:24 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89698&oldid=89695 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
20:18:25 <esolangs> [[Spider Giant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89699&oldid=89698 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
20:35:03 <esolangs> [[Expressions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89700&oldid=89692 * DigitalDetective47 * (+1349) Added more string handling and 99 bottles of beer.
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20:50:15 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P28kp66XMw4
20:50:23 <riv> TASbot plays Pokemon Red by Lots of TASers in 12:00 - AGDQ2015 - Part 8
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21:04:59 <riv> learned from oerjans document
21:05:09 <riv> when looking at 1d CAs you can throw out all garden of eden's
21:05:18 <riv> when searching for gliders etc.
21:09:55 <int-e> Falcon < Hummingbird < Eagle, hmm
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23:18:05 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89701&oldid=89592 * Squidmanescape * (+20)
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01:40:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Acrostic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89702&oldid=89656 * Oerjan * (+55) unsigned
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01:42:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89703&oldid=89654 * Oerjan * (+219) Whoops
01:42:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89704&oldid=89703 * Oerjan * (+17) Maybe fix the link
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01:45:58 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89705&oldid=89527 * PixelatedStarfish * (+99) /* External Links */
01:46:16 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89706&oldid=89697 * PixelatedStarfish * (+122) /* BrainSoup */
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01:51:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Guy Fawkes Rep]] with an expiration time of 1 week (account creation disabled): Intimidating behavior/harassment: +Removing content from pages, ignoring warnings
01:58:13 <oerjan> Corbin: i'd respond to your cringe, but i figure the troll doesn't deserve any more entertainment.
01:59:34 <oerjan> (of course if they're in here, well, they just got a tiny bit more.)
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02:10:32 <oerjan> <riv> is this good? <-- i'm going to wait and see if it's mentioned on scott aaronson's blog
02:11:11 <oerjan> title sounds like progress, anyway
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02:12:27 <oerjan> ah new blog post, just as ordered
02:33:02 <Corbin> oerjan: No worries. Thanks for your hard work.
02:39:17 <esolangs> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89707&oldid=87351 * Cortex * (+80) clarification
02:56:09 <oerjan> riv: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=6111 (he is not impressed, mostly because the information needed to actually _tell_ whether it's good wasn't released.)
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04:17:31 <esolangs> [[BrainSoup]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89710&oldid=89705 * PixelatedStarfish * (-123) /* External Links */
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08:11:29 <riv> i'm quite unhappy about this
08:11:38 <riv> the IBM thing, not the scott aaronson thing
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08:23:14 <int-e> Hmm how does it affect you?
08:24:51 <riv> good point lol
08:25:20 <riv> it's just that someone did something Wrong, and this can't be allowed
08:26:17 <riv> i guess partly, my belief that people will effective quantum computers any time soon is going down a lot
08:48:56 <int-e> Hah: "[...] it's good that they're *making something with more qubits* [...]"
08:49:12 <int-e> (Didn't D-Wave already do that though :-P)
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08:51:04 <riv> im confused, is IOCCC skipping a year?
08:51:27 <riv> there's a bunch of stuff about them 'moderizing' and moving to github
08:51:50 <riv> > we plan to hold IOCCC28 in 2022 instead of 2021. Sorry for the delay, but we think you will appreciate the retooling when it is completed.
08:51:51 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:25: error: parse error on input ‘in’
08:51:54 <riv> no the site was totally fine...
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12:14:08 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89711&oldid=85559 * Dj1vs * (+154)
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17:35:54 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89713&oldid=89649 * PixelatedStarfish * (+31)
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17:37:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Moon.png]]"
17:38:36 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89716&oldid=89714 * PixelatedStarfish * (+8)
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18:09:55 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89720&oldid=89709 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* BrainSoup */
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18:40:13 <esolangs> [[Expressions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89721&oldid=89700 * DigitalDetective47 * (+22) Added Languages category
18:41:35 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89722&oldid=89233 * DigitalDetective47 * (+48) Added Expressions
18:42:48 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89723&oldid=89386 * DigitalDetective47 * (+115) /* Implementations */ Added Expressions
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20:39:06 <int-e> hmm so trying out Rust made me realize how much I rely on #if 1 ... #else ... #endif in explorative coding in C and C++.
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21:15:39 <riv> thats weird I never use that pattern
21:21:04 <int-e> well it allows switching between two versions of some code quickly... or switch out predefined constants (which I overuse because I'm often too lazy to write input routines)
21:21:41 <int-e> as with many things it's a personal habit... and one that Rust doesn't support
21:21:47 <zzo38> I have never used that, but sometimes write "#if 0" and many other features of C that other programming languages don't do as well. (D might be one of the closest ones, though)
21:23:21 <int-e> the irony is that there is conditional compilation... but it's really just for machine configurations, not for custom flags, unless I missed something: https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/conditional-compilation.html
21:24:37 <zzo38> Why have many other programming languages to try to be better than C but are excluding many of the better features of C programming?
21:26:01 <int-e> In fact I'm probably missing something... *digs*
21:31:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Moose * New user account
21:33:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89724&oldid=89631 * Moose * (+233) /* Introductions */
21:39:06 <int-e> #[cfg(foo)] gets me some of the way there
21:41:41 <fizzie> "Our system has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail originating from your IP address" from gmail re esolangs.org wiki-originated emails. :/
21:42:41 <fizzie> As far as my logs go, "an unusual rate of unsolicited mail" is four in the last four days, and at least the last one (which bounced) was just the "someone has registered an account with this email address" email.
21:43:02 <int-e> (not that I rely on those)
21:43:59 <int-e> I expected dozens at least to look unusual
21:44:18 <fizzie> And from timing, the other three were also new account registration emails, because they're exactly the same minutes as in the user creation log.
21:45:07 <fizzie> I guess it's not impossible there's been somehow spam sent from the IP that hasn't been through the mail server and therefore isn't in the logs.
21:45:13 <fizzie> Would be nice to see some statistics.
21:45:30 <int-e> I mean, yes, this kind of registration email is unsolicited... hard to do anything about that :-/
21:47:22 <int-e> did any of those four go to the same email address?
21:47:53 <fizzie> No, they're all distinct.
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21:58:54 <fizzie> There's a Google "Postmaster Tools" thing, where I can check my "Spam rate", but it doesn't show anything.
21:58:57 <fizzie> "Most of the Postmaster Tools dashboards will only display data when there’s a sizable daily volume of email traffic (up to the order of hundreds) coming from your authentication domains and/or certain other conditions, in place to prevent abuse."
22:00:08 <fizzie> Meh. Being an email server is hard. :/
22:01:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Chicken.jpg]]": Image of a chicken
22:01:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Dog.jpg]]": Image of a dog
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22:03:11 <esolangs> [[File:Elephant.jpg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89732&oldid=89727 * Moose * (+1) /* Summary */
22:04:09 <fizzie> Oof. I hope those are all CC0 images.
22:04:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Moose * uploaded "[[File:Cat.jpg]]": Image of a cat
22:28:58 <esolangs> [[Zoophilia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89734 * Moose * (+3838) Zoophilia, a Brainfuck equivalent
22:29:33 <esolangs> [[Zoophilia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89735&oldid=89734 * Moose * (+27)
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00:36:58 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89737&oldid=89504 * Moose * (+102) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
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00:51:21 <oerjan> <riv> no the site was totally fine... <-- there are a lot of people with this strange delusion that new stuff is better than old hth
00:52:24 * oerjan waves his cane at them o======
00:53:15 * oerjan goes back to reading the logs in Internet Explorer
00:56:05 <fizzie> A web search suggests at least some of those images are from Unsplash, which has a *very* permissive license, but still isn't quite CC0. :/
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01:05:12 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I also write #if 1 ... #endif often. I replace it with if(1) more often, but that works better in untyped languages like python.
01:07:02 <b_jonas> int-e: that's a lie, you can use conditional compilation for any flags, the main limit is that you have to set the defines in the rustc command lines rather than from in the program source code. it's the cargo tool that restricts how the conditional compilation is used significantly, but I don't like cargo, because I'm not buying a whole religion/toolkit/platform/framework, just a decent programming
01:07:08 <b_jonas> language and good compiler for it.
01:08:04 <b_jonas> int-e: that said, that you can only set defines from command-line is limiting for this kind of use, and further, the compile-time constant computations are much less advanced than in C++ currently, so you can't easily use template replacements (rather than the preprocessor) like you often can in C++
01:09:07 <b_jonas> int-e: for just #if 1 you can write #[cfg(all())]{..}, and for #if 0 you can write #[cfg(any())]{...} but that's much more awkward than the c preprocessor version
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01:13:47 <b_jonas> I wonder if this A3 paper really is just 0.419 m long instead of 0.420 or I'm measuring it wrong with my 0.3 long ruler and lack of engineering experience
01:15:52 <b_jonas> probably the latter, I'm used to handwritten potatoes rather than precise stuff
01:20:24 <oerjan> > iterate (/2) $ sqrt 2
01:20:26 <lambdabot> [1.4142135623730951,0.7071067811865476,0.3535533905932738,0.1767766952966369...
01:21:12 <oerjan> > drop 3 $ iterate (/2) $ sqrt 2
01:21:14 <lambdabot> [0.1767766952966369,8.838834764831845e-2,4.419417382415922e-2,2.209708691207...
01:22:27 <b_jonas> I haven't cut paper with a knife at exact lines next to a ruler for so long that I almost forgot how to hold the knife to keep it along the plastic ruler but not cut into it, and how much pressure I need to just score a line vs to cut through the paper vs to cut through ten layers under it
01:23:18 <oerjan> i have forgot if i ever knew how to do that hth
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01:25:38 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint("".join(["%.4f " % 2**((1-k*2)/4) for k in range(7)])) # A series metric paper sizes
01:25:40 <HackEso> 1.1892 0.8409 0.5946 0.4204 0.2973 0.2102 0.1487
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01:27:10 <b_jonas> there is a trick to it, but you have to consider one ruler disposable before you learn it
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03:35:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Moose]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89738 * Ais523 * (+440) checking licenses on the images
04:05:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TommyWombo * New user account
04:14:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89739&oldid=89724 * TommyWombo * (+308)
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06:20:04 <zzo38> Some of the good things that had been added in C include the #embed command and also some GNU extensions. Some of the bad things of C include the confusing syntax for types, some of the rules dealing with undefined behaviour, and some things lacking.
06:20:26 <zzo38> (and also some of the C99 and newer features are not so good, but some are good)
06:21:35 <zzo38> Some things I would want to think to add would be parameterized types and an additional kind of macros that are scoped and used in the compiler instead of the preprocessor (which should still exist too).
06:22:33 <zzo38> This new kind of macros could be defined anywhere that it is allowed to declare a global or local variable or a member of a structure or union.
06:31:13 <zzo38> Also might wanting to have a block to define the codes which are executed at compile time, which can inspect the structure of the program and can read any file that you would be allowed to access with #include or #embed, and can inspect the preprocessor state, and can then emit tokens and data.
06:32:36 <zzo38> Also the question: Does any compiler have such optimization option as, timing safe optimization mode, and time limits for optimizations (to disable some optimizations if they are taking too long (although there might be a difficulty to do so))?
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06:50:40 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89740&oldid=89722 * Quintopia * (+5) /* FiM++ */
06:58:49 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89741&oldid=88901 * Quintopia * (+96) resplicate
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10:05:45 <int-e> b_jonas: I did find --cfg eventually... it's kind of hidden in https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/conditional-compilation.html (two occurrences, no specific examples)
11:02:41 <b_jonas> int-e: there's the relatively new "Rustc book" "https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/index.html", so the canonical documentation of the command-line option itself is "https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/command-line-arguments.html"
11:03:03 <b_jonas> but yes, what you link to is the docs for the attribute itself
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18:26:28 <riv> https://twitter.com/shafikyaghmour/status/1459558469472714758 C programming Language?
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20:26:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hcaelbxorolc * New user account
20:29:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89742&oldid=89739 * Hcaelbxorolc * (+160)
20:30:08 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89743&oldid=89605 * Hcaelbxorolc * (-2391)
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21:30:00 <esolangs> [[G85]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89744 * Danielle * (+3684) i hope i remembered to include everything!
21:37:31 <esolangs> [[G85]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89745&oldid=89744 * Danielle * (+202) added categories
21:38:25 <esolangs> [[G85]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89746&oldid=89745 * Danielle * (+1) fixed typo (sorry for multi edit)
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23:39:07 <int-e> Meh... rust disallows "complex generic expressions in const arguments".
23:39:40 <int-e> so that's another habit from C++ I can't transfer :P
00:22:07 <Melvar> What are complex generic expressions and const arguments?
00:23:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Icosalord * New user account
00:24:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89747&oldid=89742 * Icosalord * (+140) /* Introductions */
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00:45:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89748&oldid=89747 * Icosalord * (+172)
00:54:25 <b_jonas> Melvar: that means an expression in a generic paramter, in generic context, that contains a generic value parameter, so that the typechecker has to be able to prove that some type is always the same as some other type, for which it has to compare the value of a generic value parameter in the two types, where those expressions aren't concrete values but functions of some generic variables as input, so
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00:57:14 <b_jonas> Melvar, like imagine you are defining a type MyArray<Len: isize>, and in a function generic like fn foo<X: isize>, you take a value of type MyArray<X * 2> and assign it to a variable of type MyArray<X + X>. the rust compiler has to make sure that the types match generically to allow the code, not just that they match after instantiating with a specific X, so it has to prove that X+X and X*2 are the same
00:57:37 <b_jonas> it can't generally do such proofs, so it refuses to do such comparisons except in a few very limited restricted cases
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09:39:05 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh is that why, mm. I expected it to go the C++ route and check after instantiation
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11:11:19 <int-e> may I also say that union::Union::<{N*N}>::new() looks ridiculous and ugly
11:12:53 <int-e> (that's a generic `Union` type from a module called `union`, with a (constant) generic argument that equals `N*N`... and then the `new` method for that)
11:14:54 * int-e is not a fan of encapsulating an expression in curly braces, nor of the ::<...> syntax.
11:15:14 <Franciman> C++ templates being the ultimate esolang
11:17:23 <int-e> Oh sure it's an unfair comparison
11:19:06 <int-e> C++ is much older, and its rules surrounding templates are arcane. Presumably the Rust designers don't want to end up in this situation so they are being conservative in what they support.
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13:51:11 <esolangs> [[User:Icosalord]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89749 * Icosalord * (+76) Created page with "hi, i'm a icosahedron who randomly discovered esolangs from a youtube video."
14:10:36 <esolangs> [[BitShift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89750&oldid=46161 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+165) Marked the official BitShift implementation's hyperlink as currently invalid based upon its disrespondency, and added a reference to my implementation on GitHub.
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14:38:45 <Twingamerdudes> just updated my npp UDL for mash to support dark mode (like make it have a nonwhite bg). Didn't do it earlier because I could not enable dark mode because I was too lazy to update lol
14:44:09 <Corbin> TIL about Notepad++ user-defined languages, or UDLs.
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14:47:57 <riv> is N++ good?
14:48:08 <riv> what's mash?
14:48:41 <Twingamerdudes> you can find it right here https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mash
14:49:38 <riv> interesting esolang
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14:52:59 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89751&oldid=89635 * Twingamerdudes * (+1) /* How to make a mash program */ fixed tyo
14:53:25 <Twingamerdudes> bruh, fixed a typo, and then made a typo in the typo fix, lol
14:54:33 <Corbin> That's what the preview button is for.
14:54:33 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89752&oldid=89751 * Twingamerdudes * (+0) /* Notes and tips */
14:55:15 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89753&oldid=89752 * Twingamerdudes * (+0) /* Tips */
14:56:15 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89754&oldid=89753 * Twingamerdudes * (+1) /* Notes */
15:01:35 <esolangs> [[User:Twingamerdudes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89755&oldid=89543 * Twingamerdudes * (-1) For some reason. I did pfp (profile picture) instead of pf(profile). Sometimes, I make stupid mistakes like this.
15:02:33 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89756&oldid=89754 * Twingamerdudes * (+9) Made my profile name a link instead of plain text
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15:10:46 <Twingamerdudes> I dare someone to try to make a game that uses my esolang
15:18:26 <Corbin> Twingamerdudes: The typical strategy would be to compile a more ergonomic language to your language. The first two steps are to determine how Mash computes, and what kind of complexity it has.
15:19:19 <Corbin> By "complexity" I mean what kinds of functions Mash can compute. Some functions are more complex than others, and can't be implemented as easily. (This leads to "computational complexity theory", a very important topic for computer scientists.)
15:20:03 <Corbin> I would probably start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_machine
15:23:41 <Twingamerdudes> That would be pretty good, but my lack of making programming languages makes it almost impossible for me. I use so many cheat cheats in Mash, I can't count anymore XD. Maybe I might do it, but it won't be for a long time
15:25:31 <Twingamerdudes> like Mash is my esoteric programming language and programming language overall.
15:31:34 <Corbin> No worries. Computational theory, including compiler theory, is dense and subtle. It will take a while to be able to think quickly using these tools.
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17:14:43 <esolangs> [[BitShift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89757&oldid=89750 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+14) Emphasized that the character input and output is based on the ASCII character repertoire.
17:53:46 <esolangs> [[Gdelfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89758&oldid=87404 * TJC games * (+220) A lot of stoof
17:57:50 <esolangs> [[Gdelfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89759&oldid=89758 * TJC games * (+4)
18:14:49 <esolangs> [[Gdelfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89760&oldid=89759 * TJC games * (+136) That's a big number
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18:53:25 <esolangs> [[Gdelfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89761&oldid=89760 * TJC games * (+736) adding v1.0 to the page for older porgrams
18:53:48 <esolangs> [[Gdelfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89762&oldid=89761 * TJC games * (-159) /* Examples */
18:55:41 <esolangs> [[Gdelfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89763&oldid=89762 * TJC games * (-4)
19:02:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TJC games * moved [[Gdelfuck]] to [[Gdel****]]: I don't want to have swear words anymore
19:02:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TJC games * moved [[Talk:Gdelfuck]] to [[Talk:Gdel****]]: I don't want to have swear words anymore
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20:25:34 <esolangs> [[BitShift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89768&oldid=89757 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1685) Added an exemplary and very simple implementation of BitShift in Common Lisp.
20:29:05 <esolangs> [[++Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89769&oldid=65074 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+58) Improved the formatting by designing command characters as code, and introduced homogeneity by appending a terminating dot to the descriptions lacking such.
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21:29:22 <esolangs> [[Gdel****]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89770&oldid=89764 * TJC games * (+0)
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22:51:20 <fizzie> Hm. SendGrid's email API has a 100 messages/day free tier with no time limits, which would be perfectly sufficient for the esolangs.org registration emails, and would circumvent all that trouble of running a mail server, but I can't quite figure out if it's really intended for that (they keep calling it a "trial").
23:04:29 <int-e> Hmm, best case, it means "offer subject to change without notice"
23:04:42 <int-e> worst case, you're missing some small print
23:14:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: is it one of those "free" things where you hvae to give a credit card number to create an account?
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23:16:32 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, you only need billing information for switching to a paid tier.
23:26:41 <b_jonas> fungot: A cat that could play? A mouse that could waltz? Good heavens! The emperor couldn't believe his ears.
23:26:41 <fungot> b_jonas: i still don't know what
23:50:55 <esolangs> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89771&oldid=68449 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+79) Added categories to the page and amended some orthographic mistakes.
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00:06:47 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89772&oldid=89701 * Squidmanescape * (+18)
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00:21:25 <b_jonas> fungot: enter at your own peril past the bolted door where impossible things may happen that the world's never seen before
00:21:25 <fungot> b_jonas: told you it was " fnord" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ new/ scheme
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00:37:31 <b_jonas> fungot, can you backwards longjump?
00:37:32 <fungot> b_jonas: tc noncrossing 2d language, i think it was done. it is of type t) in haskell is reinventing haskell?
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00:53:05 <esolangs> [[BitShift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89773&oldid=89768 * Oerjan * (+13) /* Interpreter */ Wayback
01:03:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Gdel****]] to [[Gdelang]]: Return to original name after author changed their mind
01:03:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Gdelang]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Gdel****]]"
01:06:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Talk:Gdel****]] to [[Talk:Gdelang]]: Useless software can't do this in the same move as the main page, despite the targets both being redirects
01:06:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Talk:Gdelang]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Talk:Gdel****]]"
01:08:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Esolang talk:Gdelfuck]]": content was: "#REDIRECT [[Talk:Gdelfuck]]", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]]" ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
01:09:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Esolang:Gdelfuck]]": content was: "#REDIRECT [[Gdelfuck]]", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]]" ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
01:10:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89778&oldid=89736 * Oerjan * (-1) Language renamed back
02:04:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
02:04:28 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
02:04:43 <b_jonas> fungot: Not with mechanical machines will I destroy this planet but with my own bare hands!
02:04:43 <fungot> b_jonas: we will of course in the context, that the fixed-term parliaments act. we would have to be in fnord, running the air,
02:08:33 <oerjan> fungot: how do you intend to de-escalate the ongoing bare hands race twh
02:08:33 <fungot> oerjan: the minister is in the government. the hon. member, i have been about the fact of the matter is of course the right hon. friend.
02:11:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: we just put him into the superpower remover machine
02:12:07 <b_jonas> perhaps while he's distracted by some backstory nonsense
02:15:38 <b_jonas> perhaps one to his parents and how he no longer uses guns or something
02:16:03 <oerjan> the more ironic way would be to get hold of Superpower Removal Woman and ask her to do a laying on of hands.
02:28:21 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89779&oldid=89720 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) /* BrainSoup */
02:28:41 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89780&oldid=89779 * PixelatedStarfish * (-25) /* BrainSoup */
02:29:07 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89781&oldid=89780 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* BrainSoup */
02:29:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89782&oldid=89781 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* BrainSoup */
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04:27:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89783&oldid=82867 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+396) Login problem
04:39:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89784&oldid=87747 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+520)
04:45:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89785&oldid=87728 * Oerjan * (-734) Reverting to my last edit
04:48:45 <esolangs> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89786&oldid=89784 * Oerjan * (+315) Nope!
04:50:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89787&oldid=89786 * Oerjan * (+46) /* Project Euler */ The obvious
04:51:05 <esolangs> [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89788&oldid=70775 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+424) Made a massive rearrangement to make way for examples
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06:34:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Guy Fawkes Rep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89789&oldid=89704 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+136) I found a much shorter one.
07:33:50 <oerjan> i've got to stop taking these kids seriously.
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08:13:41 <esolangs> [[6ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89790&oldid=75817 * Squidmanescape * (+3862)
08:14:55 <esolangs> [[6ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89791&oldid=89790 * Squidmanescape * (-7) /* Implementations */
08:16:06 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89792&oldid=89772 * Squidmanescape * (-38)
08:16:51 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89793&oldid=89792 * Squidmanescape * (-6)
08:18:25 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89794&oldid=89793 * Squidmanescape * (+13)
08:19:44 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89795&oldid=89794 * Squidmanescape * (-6)
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11:09:36 <riv> https://mindbug.me/
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17:07:37 <esolangs> [[Brainfault]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89796&oldid=82546 * Beniolenio * (-125) /* Commands */
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18:00:53 <int-e> gotta love it when you copy what looks like a singe line and the result has newlines :-/
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19:03:28 <b_jonas> fungot, is that my old black and white saxophone?
19:03:29 <fungot> b_jonas: on the other side, the government side, of the house,
19:04:03 <imode> "the government side of the house"
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21:02:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LukeNK * New user account
21:23:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89797&oldid=89748 * LukeNK * (+151) Add me name
21:23:45 <esolangs> [[Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89798&oldid=87583 * LukeNK * (-20) Clarify indexing, fix infinite loop example
22:05:12 <esolangs> [[Category:Matrix-based]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89799&oldid=87993 * DigitalDetective47 * (+1) Changed matrixs to matrices
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22:41:53 <esolangs> [[Dashes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89800 * DigitalDetective47 * (+3111) Created page with "'''Dashes''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:DigitalDetective47]] where all instructions are comprised of dashes. It canonically uses the extension .dash..."
22:42:48 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89801&oldid=89778 * DigitalDetective47 * (+13) /* D */ Add dashes
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22:50:41 <esolangs> [[Dashes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89802&oldid=89800 * DigitalDetective47 * (-18) /* Commands */ Made link to Wikipedia page for Java internal
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01:26:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Shwayz * New user account
02:16:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TechieOpsoss * New user account
02:29:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89803&oldid=89797 * TechieOpsoss * (+310) Introduction
02:39:42 <esolangs> [[6ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89804&oldid=89791 * Squidmanescape * (+10)
02:40:41 <esolangs> [[6ix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89805&oldid=89804 * Squidmanescape * (+0)
02:56:48 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89806&oldid=89795 * Squidmanescape * (-41)
03:03:44 <esolangs> [[.mOdMoDwOrM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89807&oldid=69573 * DigitalDetective47 * (+15) /* Larger Symbols */ Fixed formatting at the end, '' was parsed as italic text starter.
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03:33:15 <esolangs> [[Dashes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89808&oldid=89802 * DigitalDetective47 * (+699) Added section on Turing-completeness
03:41:26 <esolangs> [[User:DigitalDetective47]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89809&oldid=89652 * DigitalDetective47 * (+13) Add Dashes.
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05:15:11 <esolangs> [[SplitFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89810 * TechieOpsoss * (+7230) Created the page
05:25:32 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89811&oldid=89718 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* Operation Codes */
05:29:24 <esolangs> [[SplitFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89812&oldid=89810 * TechieOpsoss * (+9) Reworded the command table to include the word 'argument' for consistency with the rest of the page
05:32:08 <esolangs> [[SplitFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89813&oldid=89812 * TechieOpsoss * (+0) Fixed a typo in command source listing, referring to { twice
05:34:49 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89814&oldid=89606 * Squidmanescape * (+6230) put /* Gray Snail */ version here
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05:43:47 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89815&oldid=89811 * PixelatedStarfish * (+99) /* Syntax */
05:46:58 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89816&oldid=89815 * PixelatedStarfish * (+251) /* The Ellipsis */
06:03:25 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89817&oldid=89643 * Squidmanescape * (+1203)
06:12:55 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89818&oldid=89817 * Squidmanescape * (-5)
06:13:05 <esolangs> [[Gray Snail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89819&oldid=89818 * Squidmanescape * (+4) /* Reverse Cat */
06:15:25 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89820&oldid=87907 * Squidmanescape * (+418)
06:19:15 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89821&oldid=89816 * PixelatedStarfish * (+145) /* Truth Machine */
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07:21:52 * oerjan confirms that the longest EsoIntepreters chains have not changed
08:04:24 <esolangs> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89822&oldid=76214 * Squidmanescape * (+100) I feel like people should know about this interpreter, because I feel like some people would understand the actual BCT language, but not the math that led to it (at play in the other Python interpreter) but also understand Python better than Thue, C, and the othe
08:05:41 <esolangs> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89823&oldid=89822 * Squidmanescape * (-4)
08:07:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89824&oldid=86844 * Squidmanescape * (+919)
08:12:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89825&oldid=89824 * Squidmanescape * (+73)
08:12:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89826&oldid=89825 * Squidmanescape * (+134)
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08:20:43 <esolangs> [[Esointerpreters]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89827 * Squidmanescape * (+29) I feel like people will forget to capitalize that i, considering I keep forgetting to do that when I want to search for this.
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08:47:30 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2HT3L6nkJA 5G in minecraft
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09:29:16 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89828&oldid=89806 * Squidmanescape * (+7)
09:34:02 <esolangs> [[Goto]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89829&oldid=80724 * Squidmanescape * (+60)
09:35:43 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89830&oldid=86663 * Squidmanescape * (+37)
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09:55:09 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89831&oldid=89828 * Squidmanescape * (+9)
09:57:13 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89832&oldid=89831 * Squidmanescape * (-8)
09:59:31 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89833&oldid=89832 * Squidmanescape * (-19)
10:05:48 <impomatic> Is there anything I can do to improve my Python? https://pastebin.com/bFPYiLfJ
10:06:34 <impomatic> Also, I spotted a small section about esolangs in a Children's book. I'll take a photo shortly.
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11:37:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BINGOLINGO * New user account
11:49:20 <AnnArcana> impomatic: people are exposing children to esolangs? someone alert their congressman!
12:02:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andrea Calligaris * New user account
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13:30:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89834&oldid=89803 * Andrea Calligaris * (+255) /* Introductions */
13:34:43 <esolangs> [[User:Andrea Calligaris]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89835 * Andrea Calligaris * (+113) Initial commit
13:54:17 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89836 * Andrea Calligaris * (+3079) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=BoolX |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Andrea Calligaris]] |year=[[:Category:2008|2008]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=o..."
13:55:10 <fizzie> Something you might find interesting -- wiki user counts over time (for those accounts that do have a registration time, apparently it's blank for some): https://zem.fi/tmp/regcount.png
13:55:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89837&oldid=89801 * Andrea Calligaris * (+12) /* B */ Add BoolX
13:57:05 <esolangs> [[User:Andrea Calligaris]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89838&oldid=89835 * Andrea Calligaris * (+78) Add BoolX link
14:00:06 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89839&oldid=89836 * Andrea Calligaris * (+6) Highlighting
14:01:11 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89840&oldid=89839 * Andrea Calligaris * (-5) /* External detailed info */ Fix link
14:03:33 <riv> what happened in 2021
14:04:02 <esolangs> [[User:Andrea Calligaris]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89841&oldid=89838 * Andrea Calligaris * (+16) Fix links
14:37:34 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89842&oldid=89840 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) Categorize
14:38:11 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89843&oldid=89837 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* S */ Add
14:38:37 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89844&oldid=89842 * Andrea Calligaris * (+3786) Add more features and instructions list
14:45:14 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89845&oldid=89844 * Andrea Calligaris * (+732) if-else example
14:52:41 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89846&oldid=89845 * Andrea Calligaris * (+383) /* Compacted program example */
15:04:12 <esolangs> [[Cellbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89847&oldid=79987 * Andrea Calligaris * (-135) Implementation link not working
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15:28:43 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89848&oldid=89846 * Andrea Calligaris * (+58)
15:41:58 <esolangs> [[BitFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89849&oldid=75408 * Andrea Calligaris * (+3)
15:50:04 <esolangs> [[BitSwitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89850&oldid=80547 * Andrea Calligaris * (+2) Formatting
16:04:53 <esolangs> [[BiTrax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89851&oldid=63758 * Andrea Calligaris * (-25) Categories: Not implemented
16:12:51 <esolangs> [[Boolfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89852&oldid=74955 * Andrea Calligaris * (+116) /* See also */
16:13:23 <esolangs> [[Bitter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89853&oldid=79645 * Andrea Calligaris * (+180) Add See also
16:13:59 <esolangs> [[Bitwise Trance]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89854&oldid=82086 * Andrea Calligaris * (+193) Add See also
16:14:34 <esolangs> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89855&oldid=89823 * Andrea Calligaris * (+180) /* See also */
16:15:06 <esolangs> [[BiTrax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89856&oldid=89851 * Andrea Calligaris * (+218) Add See also
16:15:42 <esolangs> [[Bitfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89857&oldid=74953 * Andrea Calligaris * (+193) Add See also
16:16:40 <esolangs> [[BitChanger]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89858&oldid=74747 * Andrea Calligaris * (+99) /* See also */
16:17:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:BitSwitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89859&oldid=78993 * Andrea Calligaris * (+193) Add See also
16:18:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:BitSwitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89860&oldid=89859 * Andrea Calligaris * (-193) Undo revision 89859 by [[Special:Contributions/Andrea Calligaris|Andrea Calligaris]] ([[User talk:Andrea Calligaris|talk]])
16:18:32 <esolangs> [[BitSwitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89861&oldid=89850 * Andrea Calligaris * (+193)
16:19:20 <esolangs> [[BitFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89862&oldid=89849 * Andrea Calligaris * (+193) Add See also
16:21:34 <esolangs> [[BitBitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89863&oldid=82772 * Andrea Calligaris * (+84) /* See Also */
16:21:44 <esolangs> [[BIT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89864&oldid=85674 * Andrea Calligaris * (+153) /* See also */
16:21:55 <esolangs> [[BitBitJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89865&oldid=89863 * Andrea Calligaris * (-17) /* See also */
16:22:03 <esolangs> [[Dashes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89866&oldid=89808 * DigitalDetective47 * (+45) /* Commands */ Defined behavior of minus sign on empty stack.
16:22:43 <esolangs> [[BIT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89867&oldid=89864 * Andrea Calligaris * (+10) /* See also */
16:22:49 <esolangs> [[BIT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89868&oldid=89867 * Andrea Calligaris * (-10) /* See also */
16:24:37 <esolangs> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89869&oldid=57628 * Andrea Calligaris * (+180) Add See also
16:26:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89870&oldid=80721 * Andrea Calligaris * (+121) /* Shall we archive this project page regularly? */
16:27:45 <esolangs> [[User:SpencerW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89871 * SpencerW * (+2853) This is still an idea in progress. Let me know what you guys think!
16:29:41 <Corbin> "languages operating on bits"
16:32:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89872&oldid=89870 * Andrea Calligaris * (+252)
16:34:01 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89873&oldid=89414 * SpencerW * (+18)
16:34:16 <esolangs> [[OrdinalFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89874 * SpencerW * (+2853) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=OracleFuck |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:SpencerW|SpencerW]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |class=[[:Category:Uncomputable|Uncomputable]] |majo..."
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18:18:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89875&oldid=89826 * Squidmanescape * (+127) /* Python Interpreter */
18:22:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89876&oldid=89875 * Squidmanescape * (-28) /* Python Interpreter */
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18:31:41 <esolangs> [[Dashes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89877&oldid=89866 * DigitalDetective47 * (+335) Added examples
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18:33:08 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89878&oldid=89848 * Andrea Calligaris * (-155) Follow wiki rules
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18:35:27 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89879&oldid=89878 * Andrea Calligaris * (-58) Realizing is not a derivative
18:36:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89880&oldid=89876 * Squidmanescape * (+68)
18:36:57 <esolangs> [[Dashes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89881&oldid=89877 * DigitalDetective47 * (+88) Added interpreter
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18:42:38 <esolangs> [[Cellbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89882&oldid=89847 * Andrea Calligaris * (+135) Undo revision 89847 by [[Special:Contributions/Andrea Calligaris|Andrea Calligaris]] ([[User talk:Andrea Calligaris|talk]])
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18:48:24 <esolangs> [[Cellbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89883&oldid=89882 * Andrea Calligaris * (+6) Dead link (follows wiki rules compared to previous edit)
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19:01:05 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89884&oldid=89879 * Andrea Calligaris * (+25) Add category Queue-based
19:02:08 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89885&oldid=89884 * Andrea Calligaris * (+39) Add category Queue-based
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19:28:59 <esolangs> [[CLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89886&oldid=89301 * Not applicable * (+431) should be done!
19:43:07 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape/Gray Snail Interpreter Links]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89887 * Squidmanescape * (+1527) Created page with "This page exists so that I can post Gray Snail interpreters when I don't know where to post them, in case I end up changing my GitHub setup. ==[[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]]== <pre>..."
19:44:13 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89888&oldid=89833 * Squidmanescape * (+96)
19:45:25 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89889&oldid=89820 * Squidmanescape * (+67)
19:45:48 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89890&oldid=86528 * Andrea Calligaris * (+891)
19:46:55 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89891&oldid=89890 * Andrea Calligaris * (+116) /* Wiki quality and "List of ideas" section */ Signing
19:49:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89892&oldid=89891 * Andrea Calligaris * (-3) /* Wiki quality and "List of ideas" section */ grammar
19:58:15 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89893&oldid=89885 * Andrea Calligaris * (+4) /* Compacted program example */ Link to brainfuck
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20:03:12 <esolangs> [[BoolX]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89894&oldid=89893 * Andrea Calligaris * (-81) /* Official interpreter */ Comply with wiki rules
20:26:06 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89895&oldid=89740 * Andrea Calligaris * (+233) Add BoolX
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22:22:28 <esolangs> [[Inverted]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89896&oldid=85087 * Quintopia * (+11) fix category
22:22:45 <esolangs> [[Inverted]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89897&oldid=89896 * Quintopia * (+1)
22:25:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89898&oldid=89834 * Shwayz * (+101) /* Introductions */
22:25:16 <esolangs> [[Caeos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89899&oldid=65354 * Shwayz * (-63) /* Implementations */
22:26:53 <esolangs> [[Moditape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89900&oldid=83646 * Quintopia * (+55) add categories
22:42:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Emerald73 * New user account
23:23:07 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89901&oldid=89814 * Squidmanescape * (-1467) /* Gray Snail */
23:26:59 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape/Gray Snail Interpreter Links]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89902&oldid=89887 * Squidmanescape * (+5990) Added Deadfish
23:38:45 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89903&oldid=89889 * Fizzie * (+954) Add a silly oneliner for graphing the table.
00:25:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LOSTED * New user account
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00:46:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89904&oldid=89898 * LOSTED * (+74) /* Introductions */
00:46:56 <esolangs> [[User:LOSTED]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89905 * LOSTED * (+73) Created page with "I love Jvav Anyways, go check out my [https://github.com/LOSTEDs GitHub]."
00:51:46 <fizzie> Quite a lot of new users recently.
00:52:04 <oerjan> you'd think there was an esolang pandemic
00:55:51 <int-e> ...need parameters... incubation period, replication factor, mortality...
00:56:34 <int-e> (what's the technical slang... case fatality rate? something like that)
00:58:32 <oerjan> huh, your graph doesn't suggest any really big increase
00:59:33 <esolangs> [[User:Oshaboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89906&oldid=87603 * Oshaboy * (+105) /* Interpreters */
01:01:01 <oerjan> maybe they're included in the "without registration time" ones
01:01:55 <oerjan> (is there some kind of consecutively assigned number one could use to test? i suppose first edit, in the worst case)
01:02:53 <fizzie> There weren't all that many of those. `list=allusers` returns a total of 7251 users, out of which 7049 have a set registration time.
01:03:42 <fizzie> The graph was basically just from sorting those 7049 registration times, numbering each line, and then plotting those two columns.
01:05:30 <fizzie> There is a `userid` field as well, those range from 1 to 7252... which I guess means exactly one number is missing, hmm.
01:06:46 <fizzie> Yeah, there's a gap from 5417 to 5419 for some reason.
01:07:15 <fizzie> I remember I ran that mergeuser thing once, maybe that's why.
01:07:46 <int-e> hmm, can we map the jumps to captcha introduction and modifications, I wonder
01:09:08 <fizzie> The git repo where I keep the MediaWiki config file starts from March 2014, which is after the big 2012 thing.
01:10:10 <fizzie> That one had 17 "regular" questions.
01:10:15 <int-e> okay, I'll say "not easily"
01:11:05 <int-e> it's not important anyway... (I mean it's probably possible to figure it out by correlating dates with irc logs, but that'd take effort)
01:12:02 <fizzie> I committed the switch from the question captcha to the Befunge captcha on Sep 4, 2016, which I guess is a little while after that one small bump.
01:16:46 <esolangs> [[Cellbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89907&oldid=89883 * Oerjan * (+52) Use wayback
01:19:29 <oerjan> The last spam flood I recall was human driven, so probably not that many separate accounts
01:20:01 <oerjan> (those indians getting paid for registering, or something)
01:21:16 <oerjan> unless you had one last year while i took a break
01:23:00 * oerjan realizes he must have been one of the few people to _reduce_ their internet use during the pandemic
01:49:24 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89908&oldid=89903 * Oerjan * (+16) Add <references /> to section
01:53:21 <fizzie> I should've done that. But I didn't know how.
01:53:49 <oerjan> well i had to look it up myself
01:54:13 <oerjan> i know the wikipedia template, which doesn't work here
01:56:01 <esolangs> [[OrdinalFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89909&oldid=89874 * Oerjan * (+3) /* References */ Needs raw tag
01:56:30 <oerjan> hm except there weren't any on the page
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03:30:53 <esolangs> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89910&oldid=79778 * Pppery * (+27)
04:27:32 <oerjan> ah Burn, my old nemesis
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05:12:03 <esolangs> [[HQ9+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89911&oldid=77910 * Squidmanescape * (+63)
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06:52:29 <esolangs> [[HQ9+2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89912&oldid=54512 * Squidmanescape * (+2020)
06:53:12 <esolangs> [[HQ9+2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89913&oldid=89912 * Squidmanescape * (+16)
06:59:32 <esolangs> [[HQ9+2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89914&oldid=89913 * Squidmanescape * (+17)
07:00:02 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89915&oldid=89888 * Squidmanescape * (+12)
07:00:38 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89916&oldid=89915 * Squidmanescape * (-25)
07:07:28 <esolangs> [[SanFran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89917&oldid=8412 * Squidmanescape * (+82)
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07:16:48 <esolangs> [[REverge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89918&oldid=8408 * Squidmanescape * (+31)
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12:29:17 <esolangs> [[Pancakes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89919&oldid=88791 * CatCatDeluxe * (+1) actually use the >= function
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17:05:45 <Taneb> Anyone got any suggestions for things I could ask for Christmas
17:07:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eutro * New user account
17:09:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89920&oldid=89904 * Eutro * (+79) /* Introductions */
17:11:34 <esolangs> [[Among Us]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89921&oldid=88315 * Eutro * (+998) /* Code Examples */
17:19:29 <esolangs> [[++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89922&oldid=88080 * DigitalDetective47 * (+56) /* Examples */ Added infinite loop
17:20:34 <b_jonas> Taneb: I usually don't even know what I want for my christmases and birthdays. I have everything. And what would you give to someone who can just invent anything?
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17:22:31 <fizzie> https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/v12/ -- for a very opinionated gift-giving guide.
17:23:54 <int-e> . o O ( Winning over people for dummies, chapter 0: how not to do it. )
17:24:50 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89923&oldid=89821 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Random Number (1 - 7) */
17:25:24 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89924&oldid=89923 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Random Number (1 - 7) */
17:28:05 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89925&oldid=89924 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* The Ellipsis */
17:28:11 <fizzie> We got a Christmas delivery from https://www.scandikitchen.co.uk/ FWIW.
17:28:29 <Taneb> shachaf: I live with two dogs, a kitty cat may be inadvisable
17:29:43 <shachaf> But it may also be advisable.
17:29:57 <shachaf> Kitties cat can get along with pooches.
17:30:10 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89926&oldid=89925 * PixelatedStarfish * (+49) /* Syntax */
17:30:42 <esolangs> [[Bedtime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89927&oldid=89926 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Syntax */
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19:21:55 <esolangs> [[Vague]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89928&oldid=80290 * VilgotanL * (+177) add js interpreter
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20:26:23 <esolangs> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89929&oldid=86674 * Rdococ * (-45)
20:26:37 <esolangs> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89930&oldid=89929 * Rdococ * (-1)
20:50:47 <esolangs> [[Suscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89931&oldid=88965 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Implementations */ cat
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21:44:33 <esolangs> [[Pinecone]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89932 * PixelatedStarfish * (+63) Created page with "*[https://pinecone-lang.herokuapp.com/index.html Official Site]"
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22:04:03 <esolangs> [[Random Number Generator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89933 * PixelatedStarfish * (+147) Created page with "A Random Number Generator generates a number randomly, usually within some range or subset. It is as the name implies. [[Category: Program forms]]"
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22:30:37 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89934&oldid=89916 * Squidmanescape * (-2)
22:33:02 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89935&oldid=89934 * Squidmanescape * (+56) /* Languages I Want to Implement */
22:34:39 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89936&oldid=89935 * Squidmanescape * (+41) /* Languages I Want to Implement */
22:34:55 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89937&oldid=89936 * Squidmanescape * (+4) /* Languages I Want to Implement */
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01:09:18 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89938&oldid=89646 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+48) Re-ordered WIP languages based on date
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02:55:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> Kitties cat can get along with pooches. <-- they can also be killed by them hth
02:56:35 <oerjan> (someone in my family had to hide the body of the neighbor's cat after that happened)
02:57:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89939 * DigitalDetective47 * (+235) /* Ambiguity of Level 8 */ new section
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03:07:36 <oerjan> be careful, is what i'm saying. admittedly this cat hadn't been introduced properly, it accidentally got into the dogs' enclosure iirc
03:10:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Random Number Generator]] to [[Random number generator]]: Bad capitalization
03:10:53 <esolangs> [[Random number generator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89942&oldid=89940 * Oerjan * (+6) Fix caps
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04:08:38 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89943&oldid=89622 * PixelatedStarfish * (+70) /* Looks Like */
04:19:55 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89944&oldid=89943 * PixelatedStarfish * (+56) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
04:26:34 <esolangs> [[Toddler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89945&oldid=89164 * PixelatedStarfish * (+282)
04:27:20 <esolangs> [[Toddler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89946&oldid=89945 * PixelatedStarfish * (-27) /* Commands */
04:28:00 <esolangs> [[Toddler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89947&oldid=89946 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* A Note on Interpretation */
04:28:45 <esolangs> [[Toddler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89948&oldid=89947 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Commands */
04:30:11 <esolangs> [[Toddler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89949&oldid=89948 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
04:35:32 <esolangs> [[Toddler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89950&oldid=89949 * PixelatedStarfish * (+278) /* Commands */
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08:16:33 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89951&oldid=89937 * Squidmanescape * (+141) /* Languages I Want to Implement */
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12:38:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89952&oldid=89939 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+288) /* Ambiguity of Level 8 */ Thank you for pointing this out
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12:41:41 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89953&oldid=82525 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+186) Clarify /* Level 8 */
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14:44:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MANNA5 * New user account
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15:01:17 <esolangs> [[CLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89954&oldid=89886 * Not applicable * (-1) /* Filter */ fix typo
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15:26:29 <esolangs> [[Brainstuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89955&oldid=79066 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+195) Relocated the command set into a section of its own and represented it in tabular form.
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16:21:04 <esolangs> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89956&oldid=73701 * Shwayz * (-10) /* Compilers */ update brainfuck compiler for maximum efficiency
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17:50:03 <riv> thinking about how to encode a bitstring to avoid runs of 0s and 1s
17:54:00 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_length_limited
17:55:49 <Corbin> Also possibly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistent_Overhead_Byte_Stuffing depending on context.
17:57:57 <FireFly> I think that's the goal of 8b/10b encoding as well
17:58:23 <FireFly> (well, a tradeoff between different goals, that being one of them)
18:07:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * McDude73 * New user account
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18:17:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89957&oldid=89920 * McDude73 * (+268)
18:19:41 <esolangs> [[User:McDude73]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89958 * McDude73 * (+86) Created page with "Welcome to the Esolang article of '''McDude73''' ''More information will come soon.''"
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18:50:52 <impomatic> Here's a pic of the esolangs in Carol Vorderman's book which I mentioned a few days ago https://twitter.com/john_metcalf/status/1463211755820265476
18:50:54 <fizzie> Or just encoding each 0 as 01 and each 1 as 10. ;)
18:51:02 <riv> i like that one
18:51:27 <riv> impomatic: fun!
18:53:48 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_code is the name I was failing to recall for that.
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21:06:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VanSlam * New user account
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23:20:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Coder436 * New user account
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00:28:20 <esolangs> [[User:McDude73]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89959&oldid=89958 * McDude73 * (+607)
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00:41:19 <esolangs> [[User:McDude73]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89960&oldid=89959 * McDude73 * (-7) /* Official languages */
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00:49:37 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=89961 * McDude73 * (+512) Created page with "'''TISolang''' (TIS-o-lang) is a [[esoteric programming language]] that created by [[User:McDude73]] that is implemented based on the game TIS-100 by Zachtronics. ==Main idea..."
00:50:43 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89962&oldid=89843 * McDude73 * (+15) /* T */
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00:51:21 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89963&oldid=89961 * McDude73 * (+15)
00:57:46 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89964&oldid=89963 * McDude73 * (+27)
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01:06:02 <HackEso> qq? No such file or directory
01:06:04 <HackEso> 1/1:108) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. \ 992) <FreeFull> So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid
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02:31:01 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89965&oldid=89964 * McDude73 * (+79)
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03:58:43 <esolangs> [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89966&oldid=88608 * Dlosc * (+126) Added HBL
04:04:20 <esolangs> [[Dashes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89967&oldid=89881 * DigitalDetective47 * (-16) Shortened links
04:06:34 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89968&oldid=89965 * McDude73 * (+3915)
04:07:00 <esolangs> [[User:McDude73]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89969&oldid=89960 * McDude73 * (-31) /* Official languages */
04:08:22 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89970&oldid=89968 * McDude73 * (+49) /* Negatives */
04:10:09 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89971&oldid=89970 * McDude73 * (+181) /* TISolang exclusive commands */
04:10:19 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89972&oldid=89971 * McDude73 * (-49) /* Negatives */
04:22:53 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89973&oldid=89972 * McDude73 * (+226) /* TISolang exclusive commands */
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04:25:59 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89974&oldid=89973 * McDude73 * (+121) /* Positives and negatives */
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04:28:27 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89975&oldid=89974 * McDude73 * (+10)
04:29:52 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89976&oldid=89975 * McDude73 * (+111) /* Negatives */
04:30:11 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89977&oldid=89976 * McDude73 * (-14) /* Negatives */
04:30:49 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89978&oldid=89977 * McDude73 * (+88) /* Positives */
04:31:08 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89979&oldid=89978 * McDude73 * (+14) /* Positives, negatives, and other notes */
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04:34:06 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89980&oldid=89979 * McDude73 * (+69) /* Notes */
04:35:10 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89981&oldid=89980 * McDude73 * (+29) /* Basic commands */
04:35:49 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89982&oldid=89981 * McDude73 * (-4) /* The basic idea */
04:36:45 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89983&oldid=89982 * McDude73 * (+100) /* Notes */
04:38:02 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89984&oldid=89983 * McDude73 * (+5) /* Notes */
04:40:58 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89985&oldid=89984 * McDude73 * (-64)
04:42:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89986&oldid=89962 * McDude73 * (+0) /* T */
04:42:46 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89987&oldid=89985 * McDude73 * (-2)
04:43:07 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89988&oldid=89987 * McDude73 * (+0) /* TISolang exclusive commands */
04:43:45 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89989&oldid=89988 * McDude73 * (-1) /* Hello, World! */
04:49:40 <oerjan> . o O ( https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ForcePreview )
04:56:38 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89990&oldid=89989 * McDude73 * (+37) /* Hello, World! */
04:58:24 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89991&oldid=89990 * McDude73 * (+96) /* TISolang exclusive commands */
05:01:26 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89992&oldid=89991 * McDude73 * (-1) /* TISolang exclusive commands */
05:02:27 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89993&oldid=89992 * McDude73 * (+23) /* TISolang exclusive commands */
05:04:55 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89994&oldid=89993 * McDude73 * (+1) /* Negatives */
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06:39:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Artless * New user account
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08:17:23 <zzo38> I had been trying to figure out something in Hero Hearts (which might be a bug), involving the "ObjLF.Volume+ObjRF.Volume+obj.Volume<=10000" check when objLF and/or objRF do not exist. I tried various numbers to see what would happen, and cannot figure out the pattern (if there is one).
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09:36:48 <esolangs> [[1st-Worst]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89995&oldid=74824 * Squidmanescape * (+4)
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10:09:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89996&oldid=30151 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+207)
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12:32:48 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89997&oldid=89994 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Interpreters */ category
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14:45:40 <riv> I don't know the hero mesh language
14:45:44 <riv> ObjLF.Volume+ObjRF.Volume+obj.Volume<=10000
14:46:03 <riv> what should happen if one or both of these ObjLF, ObjRF, obj do not exist?
14:46:07 <riv> will it default to zero?
14:46:16 <riv> or the entire comparison becomes false
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15:03:08 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89998&oldid=85665 * Zero player rodent * (+4)
15:10:28 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=89999&oldid=89998 * Zero player rodent * (+39)
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15:54:19 <esolangs> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90000&oldid=84663 * Zero player rodent * (+523)
17:00:20 <HackEso> 1/1:625) <kallisti> interestingly enough it takes about as much time for a person to produce cfunge as it does to create a baby. \ 155) <olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!
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17:06:44 <HackEso> 1/1:879) <Bike> I've heard the manga of Das Kapital is actually pretty good. \ 1274) <Ken M> If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time :(
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17:11:28 <Taneb> ...I'm curious about the Das Kapital manga, I couldn't get into the novel
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18:25:42 * Sgeo learns of the existence of Koka lang
18:35:34 <zzo38> riv: Free Hero Mesh currently does default the Volume of nonexistent objects to zero in that comparison, but trying them in the original Hero Mesh engine, this does not seem to be the case (nor does it always make the entire comparison false, or true, nor does it seem to be based solely on the sum of the two existing values).
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19:04:25 <int-e> oh right, AoC is coming up
19:18:08 <zzo38> (I don't know for sure if it is even consistent; maybe it depends on out of bounds memory accesses; I don't know.)
19:20:54 <zzo38> Also, the code "bjLF.Volume+ObjRF.Volume+obj.Volume<=10000" is a pseudocode and is not the actual implementation. I had thought that "ObjLF.Volume" should actually be "VolumeAt(ObjLF.Xloc,ObjLF.Yloc)" (and similarly for ObjRF.Volume, but not for obj.Volume), and this seems to work if both objects exist.
19:22:17 <zzo38> If there are no objects at a location (x,y) (including if (x,y) is out of the bounds of the playfield), then VolumeAt(x,y) is zero, but something else seems to be happening here, and my tests do not make it clear what it is.
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19:58:00 <esolangs> [[Highways]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90001 * DigitalDetective47 * (+11144) Created page with "'''Highways''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:DigitalDetective47]] where the program is a highway network. == Program structure == Each Highways program..."
19:59:05 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90002&oldid=89986 * DigitalDetective47 * (+15) /* H */ Added highways
20:11:59 <esolangs> [[Highways]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90003&oldid=90001 * DigitalDetective47 * (-398) /* Signs */ Removed the x sign as it made programs less interesting.
20:19:22 <esolangs> [[Highways]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90004&oldid=90003 * DigitalDetective47 * (+17) /* Infinite loop */ Fixed infinite loop program.
20:25:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Rdococ * uploaded "[[File:Woodchuck BF tree.png]]"
20:40:49 <esolangs> [[Woodchuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90006&oldid=86625 * Rdococ * (+1169) Describe Woodchuck -> bf conversion in more detail
20:41:24 <esolangs> [[Woodchuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90007&oldid=90006 * Rdococ * (-2) /* Translation from BF */ Move image to more suitable place
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21:30:08 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90008&oldid=87962 * Rdococ * (+196) /* Computational class */
21:30:28 <esolangs> [[Swapfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90009&oldid=90008 * Rdococ * (-14) /* Computational class */
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21:47:06 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90010&oldid=89756 * Twingamerdudes * (+0) Fixed typo on the word calculator
21:50:01 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90011&oldid=90010 * Twingamerdudes * (+89) /* Cat Program */
22:45:13 <esolangs> [[Highways]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90012&oldid=90004 * DigitalDetective47 * (+1465) /* Examples */ Added Hello, world! and Truth-machine
22:46:31 <esolangs> [[User:DigitalDetective47]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90013&oldid=89809 * DigitalDetective47 * (+15) Added Highways
22:51:19 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90014&oldid=89723 * DigitalDetective47 * (+124) /* Implementations */ Added Highways
23:02:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OptimisticSide * New user account
23:11:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90015&oldid=89957 * OptimisticSide * (+127) Added my introduction
23:11:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90016&oldid=90015 * OptimisticSide * (+1) Fixed typo in my username
23:12:05 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90017&oldid=89634 * OptimisticSide * (+153) Added bfcompile
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23:47:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bilman66 * New user account
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02:29:15 <esolangs> [[A programming language is a formal language, which comprises a set of instructions that produce various kinds of output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90018&oldid=78381 * Pppery * (+98) This doesn't work
02:29:32 <esolangs> [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of instructions that produce various kinds of output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90019&oldid=84038 * Pppery * (+13) Double redirect
02:49:17 <esolangs> [[Highways]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90020&oldid=90012 * DigitalDetective47 * (-16) /* Infinite loop */ Made program smaller.
02:59:23 <esolangs> [[Highways]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90021&oldid=90020 * DigitalDetective47 * (-27) /* Truth-machine */ Made the program smaller.
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04:38:07 <esolangs> [[Mash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90022&oldid=90011 * Squidmanescape * (+25)
04:39:35 <esolangs> [[Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90023&oldid=78382 * Squidmanescape * (+8) Changed redirect target from [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of instructions that produce various kinds of output.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine
04:40:05 <esolangs> [[Gdelfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90024&oldid=89765 * Squidmanescape * (-1) Changed redirect target from [[Gdel****]] to [[Gdelang]]
04:42:13 <esolangs> [[Stupidbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90025&oldid=86785 * Squidmanescape * (-1) Changed redirect target from [[Language of Laughing]] to [[Language of Lauging]]
04:43:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gdelfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90026&oldid=89767 * Squidmanescape * (-1) Changed redirect target from [[Talk:Gdel****]] to [[Talk:Gdelang]]
04:44:20 <esolangs> [[Unary Counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90027&oldid=86003 * Squidmanescape * (+1) Changed redirect target from [[Memory Muncher]] to [[Looping counter]]
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06:57:21 <esolangs> [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90028&oldid=84063 * Oerjan * (+275) Include skipped previous article names
07:11:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90029 * Oerjan * (+411) Make checklist for future moves
07:12:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90030&oldid=90029 * Oerjan * (+26) Include this talk page
07:13:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90031&oldid=90030 * Oerjan * (+35) Remember to check incoming links
07:14:54 <oerjan> Hm that talk page itself will add work. Oh well.
07:15:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90032&oldid=90031 * Oerjan * (+14) Include talk page here too
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07:19:35 <oerjan> Was there a checklist somewhere else I forgot?
07:23:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90033&oldid=90032 * Oerjan * (+112) Of course there was another step
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07:30:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[A programming language is a formal language, which comprises a set of instructions that produce various kinds of output.]]": content was: "#REDIRECT [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]]"
07:31:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of instructions that produce various kinds of output.]]": content was: "#REDIRECT [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]]"
07:32:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of output.]]": content was: "#REDIRECT [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]]", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Co
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13:28:49 <esolangs> [[GridRun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90034 * Sunarch * (+762) Initial creation
13:31:06 <esolangs> [[User:Sunarch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90035 * Sunarch * (+43) Initial creation
13:32:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90036&oldid=90002 * Sunarch * (+14) Add GridRun
13:34:54 <sunarch> wow, this is a surpisingly public broadcast xd
13:36:11 <int-e> this channel has public logs too
13:36:42 <HackEso> sunarch: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:37:25 <sunarch> that’s not an issue, it’s only that I was surprised to get a notification here when I saved my edit on the wiki
13:37:59 <sunarch> that’s colorful:) thanks:)
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14:56:18 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90037&oldid=89997 * McDude73 * (+76)
14:59:43 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90038&oldid=90037 * McDude73 * (+43) /* Basic idea */
15:04:58 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90039&oldid=90038 * McDude73 * (+111) /* Basic commands */
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15:05:43 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90040&oldid=90039 * McDude73 * (+54) /* Notes */
15:07:02 <esolangs> [[TISolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90041&oldid=90040 * McDude73 * (+4) /* Hello, World! */
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17:51:33 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90042&oldid=89999 * Zero player rodent * (-6)
18:07:09 <esolangs> [[Highways]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90043&oldid=90021 * DigitalDetective47 * (+48) /* Program structure */ Specifically disallowed trailing newlines.
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18:32:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Johnaweiss * New user account
18:38:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90044&oldid=90016 * Johnaweiss * (+164) /* Introductions */
18:38:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90045&oldid=90044 * Johnaweiss * (+93) /* Introductions */
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18:57:38 <esolangs> [[Highways]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90046&oldid=90043 * DigitalDetective47 * (-117) /* Roundabouts: example for clarity */ Fixed roundabout example.
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19:14:56 <esolangs> [[Contextual.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90047 * Johnaweiss * (+2767) Created page with "== Warning == If you love semicolons and lots of typing, you'll hate this language. If you want to type as little as possible, write code that's clean, understandable, and ra..."
19:20:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Johnaweiss * moved [[Contextual.js]] to [[Context.js]]
19:22:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90050&oldid=90036 * Johnaweiss * (+17) /* C */
19:28:40 <esolangs> [[Context.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90051&oldid=90048 * Johnaweiss * (+566) /* A Better Javascript */
19:30:39 <esolangs> [[Context.js]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90052&oldid=90051 * Johnaweiss * (+28) /* Another Example */
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19:48:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xradiation * New user account
19:56:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90053&oldid=90045 * Xradiation * (+148) /* Introductions */
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20:45:19 <esolangs> [[Not a brainfuck derivative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90054&oldid=32125 * Xradiation * (-131) This page adds nothing, pls delete
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20:51:10 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90055 * Squidmanescape * (+1431) Created page with "'''2Deadfish''', also optionally called '''2Deadfishnoto''', is a 2D variant of [[Deadfish]] in which whenever a command is read, the program pointer direction changes based o..."
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22:13:34 <esolangs> [[LLLL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90056&oldid=52521 * Xradiation * (+2085) Added some content from the homepage
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23:57:27 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90057&oldid=90055 * Squidmanescape * (+1882) Added stuff.
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00:19:47 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90058&oldid=90057 * Squidmanescape * (+505) Added trivia and categories.
00:22:01 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90059&oldid=89951 * Squidmanescape * (+31)
00:22:16 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90060&oldid=90059 * Squidmanescape * (+4)
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01:06:28 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90061&oldid=90058 * Squidmanescape * (-225)
01:12:36 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90062&oldid=90061 * Squidmanescape * (+44) /* Commands */
01:23:44 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90063&oldid=89901 * Squidmanescape * (+459)
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01:26:22 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90064&oldid=90063 * Squidmanescape * (+0) Added 2Deadfish and changed the Gray Snail.
01:30:00 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape/Gray Snail Interpreter Links]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90065&oldid=89902 * Squidmanescape * (+267)
02:38:39 <esolangs> [[Ttttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90066&oldid=67860 * Squidmanescape * (+47)
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03:08:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90067&oldid=88326 * Oerjan * (+12) Add section title for anchoring
03:08:41 <esolangs> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90068&oldid=89910 * Oerjan * (+598) This info really should be in the main article
03:18:36 <esolangs> [[Not a brainfuck derivative]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90069&oldid=90054 * Oerjan * (+131) Undo revision 90054 by [[Special:Contributions/Xradiation|Xradiation]] ([[User talk:Xradiation|talk]]) (Not unless you can prove you're the author.)
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04:48:11 <esolangs> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90070&oldid=84735 * Squidmanescape * (+1407)
06:22:14 <esolangs> [[Tttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90071&oldid=90070 * Squidmanescape * (+177) /* Implementations */ Now it has comment support.
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07:11:47 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90072&oldid=88729 * Zzo38 * (+329) Free Hero Mesh
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07:19:29 <esolangs> [[Ttttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90073&oldid=90066 * Squidmanescape * (+2234) Added Implementation.
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08:05:52 <esolangs> [[Ttttt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90074&oldid=90073 * Squidmanescape * (+344) Added some more stuff.
08:26:45 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90075&oldid=90060 * Squidmanescape * (+48)
08:39:18 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90076&oldid=90062 * Squidmanescape * (+219)
08:51:09 <esolangs> [[Bubblegum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90077&oldid=49057 * Sacchan * (+27)
08:51:29 <esolangs> [[Bubblegum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90078&oldid=90077 * Sacchan * (+1)
09:05:59 <esolangs> [[User:Sacchan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90079&oldid=53579 * Sacchan * (+3)
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10:39:44 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90080&oldid=90075 * Squidmanescape * (+25)
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12:26:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Doubi * New user account
12:32:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90081&oldid=90053 * Doubi * (+196) /* Introductions */
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13:41:16 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90082 * Doubi * (+5349) Created page with "Fairytale is a programming language where you can write a fairy tale while writing a program. It is greatly insopired by [[Rockstar]]. This article is still work in progress...."
13:41:46 <esolangs> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90083&oldid=89873 * Doubi * (+16)
13:42:13 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90084&oldid=90082 * Doubi * (-1)
13:45:59 <esolangs> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90085&oldid=89771 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+162) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Muppp programming language on GitHub.
13:49:41 <esolangs> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90086&oldid=90085 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+180) Substituted the incorrectly operating truth-machine example with a functioning one, and added an infinitely repeating cat program.
13:56:51 <esolangs> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90087&oldid=90086 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+415) Extended the explanatory text segments, capitalized one occurrence of ascii to ASCII, and terminated a sentence with a dot.
14:15:33 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90088&oldid=90084 * Doubi * (+93)
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15:36:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KSP Atlas * New user account
15:37:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90089&oldid=90081 * KSP Atlas * (+146)
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16:13:47 <riv> what is nbzwsp?
16:16:52 <int-e> non-break zero-width space
16:17:39 <riv> do you like it?
16:18:17 <HackEso> It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate.
16:18:53 <HackEso> 884) <elliott> okay so <elliott> i went to wikimapia per Bike <elliott> and found a tiny little nowhere that looked like it might be it <elliott> zoomed in <elliott> thought aw yeah this looks remote maybe it's it <elliott> turns out it's hawaii <elliott> i am not very good at this
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16:44:32 <riv> did you know that 2024 is a leap year, so we will be going 2022, 2023, straight on to 2025
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17:26:18 <fizzie> I can't keep track of the subtleties between ZERO WIDTH {SPACE,NO-BREAK SPACE,JOINER,NON-JOINER}.
17:27:26 <fizzie> https://www.unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#BOM says "The use of U+2060 WORD JOINER is strongly preferred over ZWNBSP for expressing word joining semantics since it cannot be confused with a BOM" so that's a related one as well then.
17:28:17 <Kit> i hate unicode but i also love them
17:29:32 <int-e> time to bring out the crazy knights: 🨄🨈🨙🨝🨮🨲🩃🩇
17:29:40 <esolangs> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90090&oldid=56527 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+6) Amended some orthographic mistakes and removed HTML linebreaks.
17:33:27 <HackEso> 35) <ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. \ 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
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17:40:50 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1249.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:47:19 <HackEso> [U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN] [U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES] [U+2063 INVISIBLE SEPARATOR] [U+2064 INVISIBLE PLUS]
17:53:58 <int-e> (now which has higher precedence, U+2062 or U+2064)
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18:52:23 <zzo38> I also don't like Unicode, so the program I make are design to not use Unicode (instead can using other methods for writing multilingual texts; however, some programs will not care about the character encoding)
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18:56:46 <blu256> what's bad about unicode?
18:58:09 <riv> ASCII is good
18:58:18 <riv> 7 bits are enough for everyone
18:59:43 <blu256> ASCII is good enough for english
19:04:56 <zzo38> There are many problems. For one thing, no single encoding or character set can ever be suitable for all purposes. Also there is the Han unification, and other decisions, that might be suitable for some applications but are otherwise very bad, and Unicode is also full of messy things. Writing text in foreign languages is OK as long as I don't have to use a Unicode to do it.
19:07:31 <blu256> Sure enough there are problems, but it is a better approach than, say, codepages.
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19:11:31 <riv> https://tech.marksblogg.com/fastest-fizz-buzz.html
19:11:41 <zzo38> I disagree, and think that which approaches can be better can depend on applications. (Maybe, I should make up "international text dealing library" without Unicode.)
19:12:41 <zzo38> (TRON has advantages and disadvantages over Unicode, but they made it worse by just dumping Unicode in there instead of doing it properly.)
19:16:26 <zzo38> I do mainly use the code pages. Currently Free Hero Mesh can only use code pages of 8-bit characters, although I do intend later might also add possibility of other kinds too such as EUC-JP, etc.
19:17:56 <blu256> sorry, but what is Free Hero Mesh?
19:18:17 <zzo38> It is a puzzle game engine; there is a IRC channel #freeheromesh on Libera (this IRC server).
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19:19:19 <blu256> I'm actually new to this channel
19:21:16 <zzo38> riv: Unfortunately I do not seem to have permissions. (I had to ask someone else to create that page, although I was able to write it myself and preview it, and ask someone else to actually put it in)
19:21:54 <zzo38> The category (as in mathematical category theory) of code page conversions can be possible, each conversion also a nonnegative penalty number. Some conversions might lose character properties even if the characters themself can be converted, and might also add or lose ambiguity. This is true also in the case of Unicode, too.
19:22:12 <riv> `relcome blu256
19:22:14 <HackEso> blu256: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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20:01:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ~blu256 * New user account
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20:07:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90091&oldid=90089 * ~blu256 * (+374) Introduced myself
20:08:27 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90092&oldid=90080 * Squidmanescape * (+48) /* Languages I Explicitly Won't Ever Implement */
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20:17:13 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90093&oldid=90092 * Squidmanescape * (+14) /* Languages I Want to Implement */
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20:43:36 <esolangs> [[Probablyfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90094&oldid=82588 * Rdococ * (-948) cleaned up and altered initial tape state
20:47:41 <esolangs> [[Duh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90095 * ~blu256 * (+2512) Added the "duh" esolang + link to interpreter source on GitHub
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20:50:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90096&oldid=90050 * ~blu256 * (+10) Added duh esolang
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20:52:08 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90097&oldid=90088 * Doubi * (+940)
20:54:15 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90098&oldid=90097 * Doubi * (+26)
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21:49:34 <esolangs> [[Annoying Alice 2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90099&oldid=90090 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+153) Added categories to the page.
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22:32:46 <esolangs> [[SovietCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90100&oldid=75653 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+12) Marked the hyperlink to the interpreter on GibHub as invalid, because the respective project cannot be found.
23:02:52 <b_jonas> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/everything => what if you buy one, then remove every topping that doesn't include itself?
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23:11:40 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90101&oldid=90093 * Squidmanescape * (-79) /* Languages I Want to Implement */
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23:14:44 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90102&oldid=78296 * Squidmanescape * (+2172)
23:15:07 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90103&oldid=90102 * Squidmanescape * (+1)
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23:28:52 <esolangs> [[ND]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90104&oldid=39459 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10)
23:29:02 <esolangs> [[ND]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90105&oldid=90104 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
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23:57:04 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90106 * Squidmanescape * (+744) Created page with "'''(top, height)''' is a two-dimensional language where the pointer's x-coordinate is based on the value at the top of the stack, while the y-coordinate is based on the height..."
00:02:26 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90107&oldid=90106 * Squidmanescape * (+116)
00:22:07 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90108&oldid=90107 * Squidmanescape * (+705) /* Instructions */
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00:27:08 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90109&oldid=90042 * Zero player rodent * (+106)
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00:33:29 <esolangs> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90110&oldid=90000 * Zero player rodent * (+23)
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00:54:53 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90111&oldid=90108 * Squidmanescape * (+344)
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01:28:25 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90112&oldid=90109 * Zero player rodent * (-18)
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01:37:25 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90113&oldid=90111 * Squidmanescape * (+133) /* Instructions */
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02:19:21 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90114 * Fmbalbuena * (+756) NLRNIS
02:19:40 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90115&oldid=90114 * Fmbalbuena * (+3)
02:20:09 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90116&oldid=90115 * Fmbalbuena * (+18)
02:21:06 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90117&oldid=90116 * Fmbalbuena * (-8)
02:27:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ProjectEuler * New user account
02:27:37 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90118&oldid=90117 * Fmbalbuena * (+109)
02:31:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90119&oldid=90091 * ProjectEuler * (+286) The main page was deleted so this user was created.
02:33:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90120&oldid=89872 * ProjectEuler * (+213)
02:34:12 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90121&oldid=83033 * ProjectEuler * (+38)
02:46:18 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90122&oldid=90113 * Squidmanescape * (+2816) /* Instructions */
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03:01:45 <esolangs> [[User:ProjectEuler/pagebar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90123 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+200) Created page with "{|class="wikitable" ! < | [[Project Euler/1|1]] | ... | [[Project Euler/{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] | ... | [[Project Euler/6|6]] <!-- The last Project Euler page --> ! > |}<noinc..."
03:02:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90124&oldid=89572 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+33)
03:02:47 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90125&oldid=90122 * Squidmanescape * (+350)
03:03:26 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90126&oldid=90125 * Squidmanescape * (-8) /* Instructions */
03:13:36 <esolangs> [[Timers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90127&oldid=89632 * Rphii * (+0) change ` to ! in numbers
04:12:06 <esolangs> [[User:ProjectEuler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90128 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+925) Chart
04:19:05 <esolangs> [[Truth Machine (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90129&oldid=83981 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+40)
04:41:01 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90130&oldid=90101 * Squidmanescape * (+70) /* My Languages */
04:44:01 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90131&oldid=90126 * Squidmanescape * (+178) Fixed Version Number, Explained Versions
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05:23:10 <oerjan> <riv> https://tech.marksblogg.com/fastest-fizz-buzz.html <-- "I've been unable to uncover this person's real-life identity" hah
05:23:47 <riv> GNU yes was mentioned
05:24:01 <riv> printing y in a loop was considered not fast enough
05:25:54 <oerjan> admittedly i'm not sure how easy his real name is to find if you're not in one of those places he has revealed it.
05:26:21 <oerjan> but then i'm biased, i managed to find his _middle_ name.
05:28:32 <riv> I always wondered what the I stands for
05:30:30 <oerjan> iirc it was listed in the UK olympics maths team list, and on wikipedia when he had a page there
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05:37:48 <oerjan> heh the wikipedia info is still there, if you know how to look
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05:38:59 <oerjan> (it was turned into a redirect, but the history is still there)
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05:46:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YouHardDrive * New user account
05:49:37 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90132 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+2600) Created page with
05:52:16 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90133&oldid=89493 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+97) /* See also */
05:59:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Cat.jpg]]": likely copyright violation
05:59:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Elephant.jpg]]": likely copyright violation
05:59:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Turtle.jpg]]": likely copyright violation
06:00:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Toucan.jpg]]": likely copyright violation
06:00:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Rabbit.jpg]]": likely copyright violation
06:00:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Lion.jpg]]": likely copyright violation
06:00:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Dog.jpg]]": likely copyright violation
06:00:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Chicken.jpg]]": likely copyright violation
06:13:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90134&oldid=89783 * Oerjan * (+490) /* User:ProjectEuler */ new section
06:13:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90135&oldid=90119 * YouHardDrive * (+206) /* Introductions */
06:13:56 <esolangs> [[Icarus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90136 * YouHardDrive * (+2197) Created page with "Icarus is an attempt at a completely typeless programming language. == Description == === Variables === Each variable does not really have a type. Instead, they have multipl..."
06:15:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90137&oldid=90134 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+453) /* User:ProjectEuler */
06:15:53 <esolangs> [[Icarus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90138&oldid=90136 * YouHardDrive * (+58)
06:16:10 <esolangs> [[Icarus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90139&oldid=90138 * YouHardDrive * (+4)
06:17:12 <esolangs> [[Icarus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90140&oldid=90139 * YouHardDrive * (+45)
06:17:47 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90141 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+618) Created page with
06:17:56 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90142&oldid=90141 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+1)
06:19:56 <esolangs> [[Fibonacci sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90143&oldid=66688 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+121) See also
06:20:06 <esolangs> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90144&oldid=90068 * Ais523 * (+2117) some other things I remember about Burn
06:22:51 <oerjan> i'd already guessed the 00 part
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06:23:49 <ais523> some of it is pretty obvious, but stating the obvious is helpful when it comes to esolangs because they sometimes avoid it
06:25:08 <ais523> there were some very strange guesses on the talk page
06:25:54 <ais523> oh, and there was no I/O, I should probably mention that too
06:26:27 <oerjan> yes, it seemed like no one took the 2d CA info completely seriously
06:26:35 <esolangs> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90145&oldid=90144 * Ais523 * (+46) +no IO cat
06:26:54 <oerjan> i've been thinking about it, and also thinking that the 1-color containing parts looked like wires
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06:27:57 <oerjan> although my main intuition has been to take the _name_ of the language seriously... what you call flood fill i've been thinking of as burning fuel
06:29:13 <oerjan> and 0 as perhaps the absense of fuel
06:29:48 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90146 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+816) Created page with
06:31:09 <ais523> btw, ColorfulGalaxy went and created a separate username so that they could create Project Euler spaces in that user's userspace (which is dubious enough as it is), and is now creating them in mainspace anyway for some reason
06:32:04 <riv> http://cheddarmonk.org/papers/laver.pdf
06:34:24 <ais523> (also, Guy Fawkes Rep was obviously ColorfulGalaxy, right? I haven't checked, but it was obvious just based on behaviour and on ColorfulGalaxy getting caught up in the resulting autoblock)
06:34:26 <oerjan> laver was discussed here some years ago
06:34:45 <oerjan> ais523: i suspected but didn't bother to bother
06:35:56 <oerjan> i wasn't sure whether ColorfulGalaxy actually got blocked or just pretended as part of their game, but after that it seemed obvious they were just having fun
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06:38:55 <oerjan> although if they're one person, and _expected_ to be blocked and to get hit by the autoblock, then it would explain Guy Fawkes Rep's last pre-blocking message
06:41:48 <oerjan> in some strange, crazy way.
06:42:44 * oerjan is confused by seeing a math paper on a darths & droids (fan) site
06:57:50 <esolangs> [[Project Euler/6]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90147 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+1988) Created page with
06:59:35 <ais523> I think someone who'd been blocked that much would have an intuitive idea of how the autoblocker worked, even if some of the details were wrong
07:03:54 <riv> what is a cheddar monk
07:04:00 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90148&oldid=90098 * Doubi * (+59) /* Print */
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07:04:56 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90149&oldid=90148 * Doubi * (-4) /* Specification */
07:06:30 <oerjan> riv: see darths & droids webcomic
07:06:40 <riv> i had alook
07:06:53 <oerjan> i haven't followed it in a while, though
07:06:57 <riv> it was a rhetorical question though
07:08:02 <esolangs> [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90150&oldid=89788 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+454) More code
07:33:42 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvhSRCfCHb4 fun game
08:01:50 <oerjan> ais523: "or maybe only ever increase, but decreasing seems more likely" <-- i'm going to disagree based on the simple observation that decreasing + 00 = unchangeable would make it impossible to have flood fill along 01 or 10 paths.
08:03:26 <oerjan> unless, hm, i suppose if 01/10 -> 00 if its number of non-00 neighbors _decrease_
08:05:43 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90151&oldid=90076 * Squidmanescape * (+99)
08:06:41 <oerjan> although that violates _my_ intuition of what the language does, it may not violate what you've said.
08:08:34 <ais523> I think it was probably only ever decreasing
08:08:45 <ais523> but it's hard to be confident about something I created in my head over 10 years ago without writing down any details
08:09:54 <ais523> but, hmm, maybe it does increase?
08:10:11 <ais523> perhaps I should have tried harder to remember / work out the details at the time
08:10:38 <ais523> fwiw, the modification date on the file containing that program is Aug 9 2006
08:10:46 <ais523> so over 15 years ago now
08:10:57 <ais523> (and it's the only thing in the directory)
08:12:56 <oerjan> that's not very long after i got here
08:13:17 <oerjan> 2006 was a good year for the channel
08:14:15 <oerjan> if it actually _is_ only decreasing, it may simplify things because it reduces the number of things that can happen with those 01 and 10 cells
08:18:37 <ais523> you've really shaken my confidence now, I'm seriously considering the possibility that it's only increasing, and that could make more sense
08:18:47 <oerjan> another obvious thing given what it's supposed to compute: the program code given is probably a stable configuration that doesn't change without some kind of signal coming in.
08:19:11 <ais523> right, in order for anything to happen you'd have to disrupt the tiling slightly (which I mentioned in my original set of hints)
08:19:46 <ais523> rule 110 has 000 → 0 so a tiling of 0s would be stable
08:19:57 <oerjan> my guess is that what is disrupted, is the one non-00 cell at the top line
08:20:04 <ais523> yes, that makes sense to me too
08:20:30 <ais523> ooh… I don't think a channel value could change "past" the value of its neighbours, I'll add that to the list
08:21:16 <ais523> as in, any change would be to a value that was within the range of values that existed in its neighbours
08:21:44 <oerjan> well you pretty much always have 0s nearby
08:22:21 <esolangs> [[Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90152&oldid=90145 * Ais523 * (+266) another thing I remembered
08:22:37 <ais523> I'm trying to remember whether or not 0 was a special case, but I can't remember
08:23:39 <ais523> the fact that I mentioned "levels 0-3" in a comment implies that they may have been configurable…
08:25:23 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish/Constants]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90153 * Squidmanescape * (+801) Created page with "This page serves to find the shortest way to output a number as the final one in Deadfish using the fewest commands. Note that this is different from [[Deadfish/Constants]] b..."
08:35:21 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90154&oldid=90153 * Squidmanescape * (+132) /* Constants */
08:37:26 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90155&oldid=90154 * Squidmanescape * (+4) /* Constants */
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08:40:21 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90156&oldid=90155 * Squidmanescape * (+37) /* Constants */
08:42:42 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90157&oldid=90156 * Squidmanescape * (+35) /* Constants */
08:42:55 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90158&oldid=90157 * Squidmanescape * (+2) /* Constants */
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09:42:25 <riv> https://simonsapin.github.io/wtf-8/
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10:16:21 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Ideal programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90159&oldid=89033 * Hakerh400 * (-9754) Removing the content for now. Will probably decide what to put here in the future.
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11:38:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hakerh400/What we could do if we could solve the halting problem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90160 * Corbin * (+1364) Explain the halting problem in a bit of detail.
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12:33:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:Hakerh400/Conjectures]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90161 * Corbin * (+1249) Comments on conjecture 4.
12:39:40 <int-e> fungot: what's a happy life?
12:39:40 <fungot> int-e: that,, i honestly do not know, the ncs. co-operation between the canadian government, the uk has a very proud day for him,
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13:15:45 <esolangs> [[Duh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90162&oldid=90095 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+73) /* Implementations */ Categories
13:20:07 <esolangs> [[Truth Machine (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90163&oldid=90129 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Interpreter in Python */ Python
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16:26:35 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90164&oldid=90118 * Fmbalbuena * (+110)
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17:07:32 <esolangs> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90165&oldid=90110 * Zero player rodent * (-18)
17:20:46 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> admittedly i'm not sure how easy his real name is to find if you're not in one of those places he has revealed it." => I think the channel log has a link to ais523's thesis, and to fizzie's and shachaf's, but they're not easy to find
17:24:41 <riv> what's fizzies on ?
17:25:02 <fizzie> It's titled "Feature Enhancement and Uncertainty Estimation for Recognition of Noisy and Reverberant Speech".
17:25:30 <fizzie> (I was doing speech recognition things.)
17:30:16 <b_jonas> the nethack4 and clc-intercal source code repositories give ais523's other name
17:30:47 <b_jonas> so does the ayacc source code
17:30:48 <int-e> . o O ( speech recognition for echo chambers )
17:31:31 <b_jonas> but I think I only saw ais523's middle name in his thesis
17:31:32 <fizzie> We had a pretty nice anechoic chamber at the university, it was fun to visit.
17:32:17 <fizzie> Felt weird. You couldn't really hear people well if they were talking away from you.
17:44:22 <b_jonas> "ARM CPUs, like those found in newer Apple computers, Smartphones or Raspberry Pis, won't support AVX2." hehe (still from https://tech.marksblogg.com/fastest-fizz-buzz.html)
17:45:08 <b_jonas> that's the case when the kernel will just refuse to load the program though, not when you get a mysterious undefined behavior or hopefully an illegal instruction fault from AVX2
17:45:34 <b_jonas> "You should see "sse2" at a minimum." => umm....
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17:47:47 <ais523> that blog post is terrible, it doesn't seem to show any understanding of the material it's covering
17:48:08 <ais523> much of it is just paraphrases of what I said, there's no detail on the interesting bits, and most of the new material is outright wrong
17:48:47 <ais523> (e.g. it doesn't seem to realise that AVX is newer than / subsumes the SSE family)
17:51:52 <ais523> fwiw, I feel like AVX1 on %xmm registers only is a good choice for general-purpose vector programming (AVX2 is better for very high performance when you want big vectorised loops, but AVX1 instructions have very little cost to them so you can just scatter them around a program when they're useful rather than really needing to dedicate your program to them)
17:53:21 <esolangs> [[Muppp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90166&oldid=90087 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+433) Adjusted the capitalization of the section title Example programs and added an EBNF description of the language.
17:54:09 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, RDX and kin are called "general purpose" registers only for legacy reasons, same way as two-byte blocks are called "words" in the intel manual. in reality, XMM0 and kin are the general purpose registers, RDX and kin are index registers.
17:54:54 <b_jonas> with SSE4_2 and AVX, we have enough nice instructions on the XMM registers that you can do most calculations in them conveniently
17:55:40 <ais523> I've seriously wondered about what it would be like to habitually compile all code with vector registers (using scatter/gather instructions to do memory access, as they take the address from a vector register)
17:55:54 <ais523> if you do that you end up with a model very similar to that of GPU programming
17:56:17 <b_jonas> there's still the problem that the ABI relies on the index registers a lot: arguments are usually passed there, and some of them are callee-saved
17:56:29 <ais523> where you get small amounts of parallelism for free, but the situation with conditionals is pretty akin to INTERCAL
17:56:43 <ais523> I hate the existing ABI anyway :-D
17:56:48 <b_jonas> ais523: well there's still a bunch of utility instructions that operate on index registers, even after scatter-gather, so you can't just ignore them
17:57:34 <ais523> I think that having a fixed ABI should only be useful for special cases, and compilers should instead pick an ABI on a function-by-function basis
17:58:15 <ais523> e.g. the vast majority of functions don't care about stack alignment, many functions can preserve the argument registers at no extra cost, some functions prefer to have the return value share a register with an argument, etc.
17:58:39 <ais523> this would also fix the problem with 256-bit vector arguments on x86-64
17:59:15 <ais523> (depending on compiler options, they can be passed either in a 256-bit vector register or two 128-bit vector registers, and it's fairly easy to accidentally link code compiled with one ABI against code compiled with the other ABI)
18:00:14 <int-e> sure, just break all tracrs and debuggers
18:03:03 <shachaf> b_jonas: Wait, a link to my thesis?
18:03:08 <ais523> at least DWARF is sufficiently expressive to be able to represent this already
18:03:29 <b_jonas> ais523: compilers can certainly do that, they are only required to use the ABI for functions exported fro mthe compilation unit, and even so only when they guarantee a stable ABI, unlike eg. rust which doesn't guarantee that you can link to a native ABI compilation unit from a different minor version of compiler
18:03:36 <shachaf> I'd like to read that, since I wasn't aware it existed.
18:03:57 <ais523> and anyway, I treat "letting existing debuggers work" as a pretty low priority when it comes to designing compilers – design the compiler first, then work out what the appropriate debugger looks like and write it if necessary
18:04:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: then I just guessed wrong. I'm not sure what I say that hinted at that. I only found the link to fizzie's thesis
18:04:04 <ais523> b_jonas: yes but they don't
18:05:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, the solution there is that either you need a recent enough version of the debugger and even then nothing is guaranteed, or you have to compile with -O0 . obviously some changes in the compiler can output the info in the existing debugger format, but not all.
18:05:48 <b_jonas> "this would also fix the problem with 256-bit vector arguments on x86-64" => wait, isn't that unfixable with an ABI?
18:06:13 <ais523> b_jonas: well, if the function says what registers it's expecting arguments in, it can just say "pass this in %ymm3" or whatever
18:06:33 <b_jonas> at least it's unfixable locally, you can only fix it if your whole program and every library linked to it uses the new ABI, I think
18:06:51 <ais523> then the function that calls it can do that even if it isn't compiled with AVX – because the function is indicating that it uses AVX instructions, they're going to be used anyway so the caller can use them too
18:07:10 <int-e> b_jonas: that is the proposal
18:07:50 <int-e> function pointers will be fun too btw
18:07:54 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, that wasn't clea5r to me, because ais523 started with "compilers should instead pick an ABI on a function-by-function basis"
18:07:55 <ais523> fwiw, I also think that nowadays, it makes sense to just compile multiple versions of the program (for different processor ages) as a matter of course and just get the dynamic loader to choose between them
18:08:16 <ais523> obviously, the sticking points are a) linking to precompiled libraries, b) dynamic libraries, c) function pointers
18:08:48 <int-e> in fact function pointers may render this infeasible for non-static functions (for static ones you'll be able to tell whether a function pointer is created or not)
18:08:48 <b_jonas> "depending on compiler options, they can be passed either in a 256-bit vector register or two 128-bit vector registers, and it's fairly easy to accidentally link code compiled with one ABI against code compiled with the other ABI" => yes, but 128 bit vs 256 vector registers causes a lot of problems in ways other than argument passing
18:09:04 <ais523> b_jonas: which problems are you thinking of?
18:09:12 <int-e> I guess you could duplicate code too
18:10:04 <ais523> one way to make function pointers work is to have wrappers around functions to which pointers are taken that use a fixed ABI – this is inefficient, but unlikely to be substantially worse than the current way of doing things
18:10:55 <b_jonas> ais523: (1) ABI differences not on the compiler level but on the level of a C++ library like eigen where the same high-level matrix class can be represented differently depending on whether you're compiling the library for AVX/AVX2-optimized, as chosen by preprocessor conditionals and also the instruction set extensions that you are compiling to by default
18:11:22 <b_jonas> ais523: (2) performance problems when switching between SSE2 and AVX instructions
18:11:24 <ais523> I didn't realise that that sort of thing happened in practice
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18:12:01 <b_jonas> we can't just break compatibility with everything that already exists, but sometimes we want to optimize the code better using new instructions
18:12:17 <ais523> for 2), the situation that causes the performance cost is specifically using an SSEx instruction on a register whose top half (or top three-quarters under AVX-512) is not 0
18:12:20 <b_jonas> for the Eigen library, there are enough exposed preprocessor macros that you can make everything compatible
18:12:40 <ais523> err, but I think on some processors, it isn't enough for it to be 0, it needs to have been explicitly zeroed with a zeroing instruction
18:12:48 <ais523> this is what VZEROUPPER is for
18:13:39 <b_jonas> there's also some low-level problems, I don't quite understand correctly but I think on old MSVC compilers you can't force the stack to be aligned to 32 bytes; and there was or is a bug with the gcc C++ name mangling where two overloaded functions with different types of arguments that differ only in the width of vector arguments passed would mangle to the same name and could both exist in the library
18:14:13 <ais523> huh, I decided to look up the performance of VZEROUPPER out of curiosity
18:14:34 <ais523> on Intel, it appears to cost one CPU cycle (i.e. the cost of four integer instructions), which is faster than I expected
18:14:54 <b_jonas> and possibly one more gcc ABI incompatibility thing that I don't understand, but that might just be the same thing as the previous one
18:15:08 <ais523> on recent AMD, it is as fast as NOP (i.e. it costs space in the decode unit but nothing else), which is very surprising
18:15:38 <ais523> this implies that it's being implemented in the register renamer somehow – maybe the top and bottom half of vector registes are renamed separately
18:15:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, the switching thing is probably not much of a problem these days with modern cpus
18:16:04 <ais523> b_jonas: it's actually worse than it used to be, at least if you forget the VZEROUPPER
18:16:14 <ais523> older processors had fairly big costs per switch
18:16:30 <ais523> on newer processors, the cost for switching isn't as big, but there's a cost *per instruction* after an invalid switch
18:17:29 <ais523> so running a single movdqa into a 256-bit vector register, without properly clearing it afterwards, can make the rest of the program run slower if it uses SSE instructions
18:21:55 <b_jonas> I wonder if the penalties for denormal numbers in floating-point arithmetic increse or decrease
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18:24:24 <ais523> IIRC recent processors are better at denormals than they used to be
18:24:58 <ais523> although there are things like gcc using --std=gnu99 and friends disabling them entirely (they're supported under --std=c99 and friends)
18:25:22 <b_jonas> does "better at denormals" mean that they have to invoke a penalty in fewer situations, or that when there's a penalty they can handle it more gracefully eg. by pausing everything else for a few cycles to handle it rather than rerolling everything and rescheduling?
18:28:26 <b_jonas> this might also differ between the brands
18:28:47 <ais523> it seems like Intel still has a high penalty but it's been happening in fewer situations over time, but there's a lot of fluctuation between processor families
18:29:12 <esolangs> [[2Deadfish/Constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90167&oldid=90158 * Squidmanescape * (-14)
18:29:23 <ais523> meanwhile AMD has a very small penalty by comparison, on the recent processors
18:29:44 <ais523> some cases of denormals are handled in hardware, it seems to be denormal results that cause the biggest problem as opposed to denormal inputs
18:39:57 <ais523> in particular, Intel handles normal + denormal = normal in hardware nowadays, no microcode required and no penalty
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19:33:19 <esolangs> [[JR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90168&oldid=73337 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+12) Marked the hyperlink to the interpreter by the language author as invalid, because the respective page cannot be found.
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19:53:35 <riv> 99% of people love filling out surveys
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20:27:59 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90169&oldid=90014 * Zero player rodent * (+4) /* Eek */
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21:00:31 <esolangs> [[Magritte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90170&oldid=13033 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+377) Added an implementation of the language in Common Lisp.
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22:45:14 <esolangs> [[User:Squidmanescape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90171&oldid=90130 * Squidmanescape * (+32) /* Languages I Explicitly Won't Ever Implement */
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00:31:09 <b_jonas> ok... I tried to look up about PhD thesisis in the channel logs and found the link to https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/faq-the-snake-fight-portion-of-your-thesis-defense
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02:42:53 <esolangs> [[Mash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90172&oldid=90022 * Twingamerdudes * (+0) Fixed ordering of > < examples
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05:29:54 <esolangs> [[A;jad;dj]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90173 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) Created page with "File:dABowie.png|thumb|"
05:30:06 <esolangs> [[A;jad;dj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90174&oldid=90173 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5)
05:31:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:DABowie.png]]"
05:31:23 <esolangs> [[A;jad;dj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90176&oldid=90174 * PixelatedStarfish * (-20) Blanked the page
05:35:04 <zzo38> I think that if you like to fill a survey is not as simple as if you do or don't because sometimes you might be OK and others not.
06:00:05 <zzo38> (I also had made up a file format to write a survey, which is a plain text file with some specal phrases and requires no special software, and is also meant to be usable with SQLite (or other SQL implementations) that you can easily make queries of the responses (e.g. how many people gave the same answer to the first three questions?).)
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09:50:12 <esolangs> [[Magritte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90177&oldid=90170 * Oerjan * (+15) /* Implementation */ Fix strong semantic error
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10:11:11 <esolangs> [[++Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90178&oldid=89769 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+178) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ++Brainfuck programming language on GitHub.
10:12:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90179&oldid=89996 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+215)
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10:27:29 <esolangs> [[++Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90180&oldid=90178 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1196) Added several examples and a Commands section.
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11:10:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stupid Games Inc. * New user account
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11:54:59 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90181&oldid=90164 * Razetime * (+215) add formatting
11:56:18 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90182&oldid=90181 * Razetime * (+24) fix commands
11:56:40 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90183&oldid=90182 * Razetime * (+32) /* Variables: */
11:59:37 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90184&oldid=90183 * Razetime * (+177)
11:59:52 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90185&oldid=90184 * Razetime * (-3) remove colons
12:00:50 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90186&oldid=90185 * Razetime * (+119)
12:03:39 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90187&oldid=90186 * Fmbalbuena * (+0)
12:11:40 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90188&oldid=90187 * Fmbalbuena * (+6)
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14:11:12 <esolangs> [[Woodchuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90189&oldid=90007 * Rdococ * (-49)
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14:30:38 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90190&oldid=90188 * Fmbalbuena * (+43) NLRNIS Meaning
14:48:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90191&oldid=90135 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+279) /* Introductions */
14:49:50 <esolangs> [[User:Stupid Games Inc.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90192 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+357) Created page with "Stupid Games Inc. is the previous version of Bloody Wall Software, an indie game studio that makes top quality games. BWS also created an esoteric programming language loosely..."
15:02:02 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90193 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+1177) Created page with "{{stub}} LOLGraphics is an esoteric programming language loosely based on lolcode only with graphics. Version 0.1 with only 4 commands was released in itch.io in December 9th..."
15:10:16 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90194&oldid=90193 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+138)
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15:23:08 <esolangs> [[++Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90195&oldid=90180 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-2)
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15:44:35 <esolangs> [[User talk:Rune]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90196&oldid=23155 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+311) /* Serial vandal */
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15:56:57 <StupidGamesInc> Hi, I have created a new article in this wiki. Since I’m new here, can anybody here please check if I have done it right? I intend to add more info about how it works soon. Thanks in advance https://esolangs.org/wiki/LOLGraphics
15:59:52 <Corbin> Sure, it's fine. There's a common infobox that you might consider; it instantly makes stubs better. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_proglang
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16:08:53 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90197&oldid=90194 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+485)
16:09:28 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90198&oldid=90197 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+1)
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16:27:56 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90199&oldid=90149 * Doubi * (-8)
16:28:12 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90200&oldid=90198 * Stupid Games Inc. * (-19)
16:29:22 <esolangs> [[Fairytale]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90201&oldid=90199 * Doubi * (+69) /* Just print text: */
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17:44:07 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90202&oldid=90200 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+1209)
17:44:45 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90203&oldid=90202 * Stupid Games Inc. * (-16)
17:44:50 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90204&oldid=88836 * Chris Pressey * (+45) Fix the 9 instruction. Update notes surrounding code.
17:46:23 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90205&oldid=90203 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+88)
17:46:55 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90206&oldid=90205 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+8)
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18:50:52 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90207&oldid=90206 * Stupid Games Inc. * (+56)
18:51:16 <esolangs> [[LOLGraphics]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90208&oldid=90207 * Stupid Games Inc. * (-56) Undo revision 90207 by [[Special:Contributions/Stupid Games Inc.|Stupid Games Inc.]] ([[User talk:Stupid Games Inc.|talk]]) tried something that doesnt work
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19:21:57 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90209&oldid=90204 * Chris Pressey * (+75) Note what implementing Q does prove
19:24:46 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90210&oldid=90209 * Chris Pressey * (+188) Add observation about case sensitivity
19:28:45 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90211&oldid=90210 * Chris Pressey * (-32) A push-down automaton that can't pop symbols off the stack isn't a push-down automaton.
19:30:40 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90212&oldid=90211 * Chris Pressey * (+36) /* External resources */ Note some broken links
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21:08:33 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90213&oldid=90212 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* External resources */ Wayback / template
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21:40:47 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90214&oldid=90112 * Zero player rodent * (+277)
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02:23:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Spargle * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Ark logo.png]]"
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07:03:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Rune]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90216&oldid=90196 * Oerjan * (+164) /* My new article */
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07:33:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Administrators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90217&oldid=75232 * Oerjan * (+70) Sorting this so it becomes more useful to find out who to contact
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07:35:18 <oerjan> For reference, the actual order is by 10th last edit
07:35:58 <oerjan> (i made it that high because it seemed unwise to put Chris Pressey further ahead just because of the edits he made today)
07:38:50 <oerjan> i suppose if i made it _admin_ activity ais523 would be on top but i don't know how to list things that are not edits.
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10:04:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90218&oldid=43974 * Ais523 * (+545) /* Proving all the tasks are possible */ not quite a proof, but it's a demonstration that will convince most people
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11:30:17 <esolangs> [[User:Pandaqwanda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90219&oldid=89337 * Pandaqwanda * (-7)
11:35:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Erpazdev * New user account
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12:04:10 <esolangs> [[Braintuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90220 * Xradiation * (+3915) Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{featured language}} {{infobox proglang |name=brainfuck |paradigms=imperative |author=[[Xradiation]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |memsys=:Category:Cell-base..."
13:56:38 <esolangs> [[41943040000000000000000000000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90221&oldid=81888 * Int-e * (+0) Yeah... nope, it's still a 2021 "language".
13:56:54 <int-e> (can we delete that one...)
13:57:34 <riv> it will be made in 2022
13:57:44 <riv> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Heavpoot upside down!
13:58:16 <int-e> Well I really think the categories are outside of the "fun" area of the wiki; they're meant to be useful, hence factual.
13:58:43 <int-e> > 20^22 -- we did figure out why it's that number back in April btw
13:58:44 <riv> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Categorial lol
13:59:08 <int-e> oh did that survive, sigh
14:01:21 <int-e> I guess I had less strong opinions in 2020 :P
14:01:33 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but if you can apply a category in a way that's funny but still factual, you should do it
14:01:55 <b_jonas> I mean if it still aligns with the usage rules of the category, not if you apply it to some unrelated thing
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14:03:16 <int-e> But afair Heavpoot never managed to be funny.
14:04:26 <int-e> Categorial may have been their best shot now that I think about it.
14:05:10 <riv> some of their pages made me laugh just now
14:06:07 <riv> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ColorfulGalaxy/Google_mirror theres some self redirect thing that makes back button not work here
14:06:43 <riv> oh no its just http -> https
14:08:58 <b_jonas> but yeah, are categories are rather limited, so about the best I could do is apply both Implemented and Unimplemented to the same page because it discusses two languages together
14:10:20 <b_jonas> I wonder if we could make a page that's both People and Languages
14:11:20 <b_jonas> like to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sultan%27s_daughter since the daughter who implements the function is clearly an esoteric programmer, so she might qualify into the People category
14:11:29 <b_jonas> she gave the puzzles herself
14:11:36 <b_jonas> probably invented them too
14:13:29 <b_jonas> it's not very funny, but https://esolangs.org/wiki/BANCStar is one where I don't dare to apply either Implemented or Unimplemented
14:15:34 <HackEso> 1308) <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth
14:17:06 <esolangs> [[Sultan's daughter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90222&oldid=62987 * B jonas * (+20) the daughter who implements the language and created the puzzles is clearly an esoteric programmer
14:17:15 <int-e> b_jonas: You have a bunch of languages named after people... Pascal, Ada, Haskell, off the top of my hat
14:18:16 <int-e> Esoteric ones too... err... why's Piet the only one I can think of?
14:25:08 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but they're just named of people. the sultan's daughter is said to implement the language in the story, as in, the suitor sends her a number (presumably in a letter) and she sends back the number (in a letter) that her function computers
14:25:30 <b_jonas> whereas I don't think you could send Pascal the person a Pascal program, or Piet or Ada etc
14:25:43 <b_jonas> I mean you could send, but not with the expectation that they'd try to run it
14:33:55 <b_jonas> terminology question. suppose you have an interpreter for a language, such that the language is memory-safe as in the interpreter guarantees that references in it only point to valid memory. you can spawn multiple different instances within the same process and address space that have their simulated memory separate, so that references from an instance can only refer to objects within the same instance.
14:34:02 <b_jonas> perl with multiplicity/ithreads is an example. what would you call an interpreter instance?
14:35:16 <sprout_> I call it an abstract machine
14:50:46 <sprout_> there's a need for a precise unambiguous nomenclature but since that doesn't exist normally there's nothing against people introducing their own terms, as long as they are 'precise' about those
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14:57:23 <HackEso> Advent of Code (AoC) is a series of programming puzzles that some regulars enjoy, found at "https://adventofcode.com/2020/about".
14:57:53 <b_jonas> I hear there'll be one of these in 2021 too
14:58:12 <esolangs> [[Braintuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90223&oldid=90220 * Xradiation * (+310) fix the indent
14:59:22 <riv> advent of code will occur in 2022
14:59:36 <sprout_> yah, found the countdown timer. first puzzle in 38 hours
15:24:45 <fizzie> I did days 1..19 of AoC 2017 over the weekend to remind myself how it goes (I only had recorded solutions for 2018..2020).
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16:10:10 <esolangs> [[Braintuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90224&oldid=90223 * Xradiation * (+1564)
16:10:59 <esolangs> [[Braintuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90225&oldid=90224 * Xradiation * (-22)
16:12:12 <riv> i never get very far in aoc
16:12:30 <riv> but this time im using it to learn rust, so it should be fairly interesting and ill probably do at least 3 days
16:41:51 <b_jonas> I solved 15 days with twists in AcC 2020 IIRC
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16:50:17 <fizzie> I did a few solutions in Befunge-98 for 2020.
16:50:53 <fizzie> Scroll through https://github.com/fis/aoc/blob/main/docs/2020-notes.md and look for vestive blue-green-white blocks of line noise if you're curious. :)
16:51:54 <fizzie> Days 1, 2, 5, 6 and 8 (part 1 only), apparently.
16:54:42 <APic> ♫♬▶ The Doors - People Are Strange
16:56:29 <b_jonas> I just solved them in python3. if I solve any this year, it will probably also be in python3, unless there's a problem that's different style from the first 15 last year so other tools work better.
16:56:46 <b_jonas> I won't solve in esoteric languages just for the sake of being esoteric
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17:15:54 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90226&oldid=90190 * Fmbalbuena * (+210)
17:16:16 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90227&oldid=90226 * Fmbalbuena * (+1)
17:16:52 <esolangs> [[NLRNIS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90228&oldid=90227 * Fmbalbuena * (+4)
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17:46:02 <riv> can you do programming in the n-body problem?
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18:26:29 <esolangs> [[FakeScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90229&oldid=82939 * Viba * (-15) replace instances of my old name with my new name
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19:06:59 <esolangs> [[Braintuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90230&oldid=90225 * Xradiation * (+276) /* Hello, World! */
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19:26:38 <esolangs> [[Braintuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90231&oldid=90230 * Xradiation * (+37) /* Hello, World! */
19:35:58 <esolangs> [[SMATINY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90232&oldid=53315 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* See also */ fix link
19:37:14 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90233&oldid=89048 * Kemuri * (+658)
19:38:29 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90234&oldid=90233 * Kemuri * (+79)
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20:14:30 <zzo38> I would want to see how PL/MIX is working, but I suppose that they would never write such a thing. I also wanted to figure out how TRON is working but could find only incomplete information. I did find a die photo, but I think it is too low resolution.
20:15:37 <zzo38> (There may also be other computer designs that may be lost or hard to find too)
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22:51:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Lyxal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90235 * Fmbalbuena * (+141) Discuss
22:53:02 <zzo38> About programming in the n-body problem, is the "Gravity" esolang like what you mean?
22:53:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Lyxal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90236&oldid=90235 * Lyxal * (+164) /* Why code golf? */
22:56:40 <zzo38> (I think it is similar to it, but perhaps not quite, since there is a infinite number of bodies)
22:56:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Lyxal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90237&oldid=90236 * Fmbalbuena * (+99) Why?
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23:57:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FanofTesla * New user account
00:01:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Moose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90238&oldid=89738 * Moose * (+231) /* Image uploads */
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01:27:57 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90239&oldid=90131 * Squidmanescape * (+71) /* Instructions */
01:33:12 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90240&oldid=90239 * Squidmanescape * (+45) /* Code Examples */
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01:36:23 <esolangs> [[(top, height)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90241&oldid=90240 * Squidmanescape * (+14) /* Implementations */
01:38:51 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90242&oldid=90169 * Squidmanescape * (+46) I'm surprised by how short it is.
01:40:40 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90243&oldid=90242 * Squidmanescape * (+0) /* Implementations */
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02:31:37 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90244&oldid=90243 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Alphabetical order
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03:10:40 <zzo38> There are some different formats for specifying file formats, such as MIME, UTI, etc. However, I have my own idea of another way, too, since other one has a few problems.
03:11:57 <zzo38> MIME can only specify two things, which are required to match. UTI only specifies one thing but multiple inheritance (conformance) is possible, although the conformance is not a part of the name itself; the use of non-ASCII characters is also problematic, I think.
03:13:03 <zzo38> My own idea is simply you can specify a set of parts, optionally including parameters (such as code page numbers), and maybe also sub-parts (e.g. audio/video codecs inside of a container format).
03:15:38 <zzo38> For example, a PostScript file might be either text or binary format, and the usage type of the file might be as a "document", "program", or "picture". A Ogg file might be audio or video or both, and might use some codecs, which might also be used in other container formats. A EPUB file is also a ZIP file, a Fossil repository file is also a SQLite database file, etc. There are also polyglot files.
03:16:13 <zzo38> MIME and UTI support some of these uses, but not all, and not always working so well.
03:26:46 <esolangs> [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90245&oldid=86587 * Robolta * (+50) Added extension specification in the "Interpreters" section
03:27:00 <esolangs> [[Patternfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90246&oldid=90245 * Robolta * (+1) /* Interpreters */
04:15:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90247&oldid=63401 * Anthonykozar * (+2214)
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05:41:35 <oerjan> i notice https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90229&oldid=82939 and feel like we should have some kind of verification policy.
05:43:24 <oerjan> although giving the timings of the two account's histories, i don't suspect anything in this particular case
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08:01:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90248&oldid=90124 * Guy Fawkes Rep * (+23)
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09:07:16 <zzo38> I think that maybe a HTTP response header should be added in case the browser does not understand the file being loaded. It can occur mode than once and consists of the MIME type and then a space and the URL; depending on the URI scheme of the target URL, a MIME type might not be applicable in which case an asterisk is used instead.
09:08:37 <zzo38> If it is a file type (or URI scheme) that would be expected in this context, then it will load that file instead but keep the same current URL, so it is similar to a redirect in this way but does not actually redirect; relative links are relative to the old URL instead of the new one, window.location is the old URL and not the new one, etc.
09:09:36 <zzo38> If it is a JavaScript or WebAssembly or something like that (if the user has enabled those things), then those can be executed to convert the file (for example, this might be suitable for implementing picture formats).
09:13:18 <zzo38> The end user should also be able to configure this feature, although with suitable defaults. Then, it can allow working files that might not be supported but the end user can also install their own implementation of that file instead if not wanting to use those ones (e.g. due to being more efficient by native code, using a file format with better capabilities for this use, etc).
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11:31:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: we just had all the freenode accounts dropped and possibly unrelated users register accounts on libera. any of us could be an impostor here too, not just that guy on the wiki.
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11:46:38 <b_jonas> shall the twain ever meet, fungot?
11:46:39 <fungot> b_jonas: i have a very high number, albeit, i accept the hon. and learned friend the minister for the way the government and to the country, switch.
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12:24:29 <immibis> when did ais523 get into TASing?
12:45:32 <esolangs> [[Computational class]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90249&oldid=75482 * Xradiation * (-9) fixed typo: 'can solve at solve at least as many problems'
12:56:30 <b_jonas> latin roots are f'ed up. "multus" means many and "paucus" means few; but "plus" means many and "minus" means few. you've got two pairs of words, with similar meanings, but their initials are exactly backwards.
13:11:35 <b_jonas> and all four of these are inherited to modern languages
13:29:43 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90250&oldid=90234 * Kemuri * (+190)
13:30:17 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90251&oldid=90250 * Kemuri * (-1) /* Hoverfly */
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14:30:16 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90252&oldid=90251 * Kemuri * (-2) /* streams */
14:30:24 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90253&oldid=90252 * Kemuri * (-2) /* flags */
14:30:33 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90254&oldid=90253 * Kemuri * (-2) /* values */
14:30:41 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90255&oldid=90254 * Kemuri * (-2) /* imports */
14:31:17 <esolangs> [[Hoverfly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90256&oldid=90255 * Kemuri * (+26) /* import */
15:26:58 <esolangs> [[Entropy complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90257 * Xradiation * (+1150) Created page with "A programming language is said to be '''Entropy-complete''' if any taken combination of its set of instructions can be run as a valid program. that is to say, that it can run..."
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16:02:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Entropy complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=90258 * Corbin * (+826) Imagine a connection to type theory.
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17:15:01 <Taneb> Do either CH or ¬CH have interesting consequences
17:25:11 <Corbin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiling%27s_axiom_of_symmetry might be one. ZFC knows that this axiom is equivalent to ~CH, it seems.
17:28:20 <esolangs> [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90259&oldid=66458 * Anthonykozar * (+216) Added missing "reverse IP" instruction to the end of the truth machine example and added a link to a Gaot++ "translator".
17:31:36 <riv> hmmm, hello?
17:32:05 <riv> not much known about CH
17:32:56 <riv> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity hmm
17:33:42 <riv> i was thinking more (x,y,z,mass), and perhaps the long term behavior of planet 0 (escape or does not escape) would be the result of computation
17:34:10 <riv> I was curious about TASing but I didn't reakly have much success
17:34:34 <riv> im very interested in the exploit based TASs, but it seems almost impossible to find a new arbitrary code exec. in an old game
17:34:39 <riv> at least i do not know how
17:34:57 <riv> it was fun seeing the super mario land stuff unfold
17:35:02 <riv> and even be exectued by a human
17:40:55 <esolangs> [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90260&oldid=90259 * Anthonykozar * (+174) Grammar corrections and some minor clarifications
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23:21:59 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=90261&oldid=90214 * Zero player rodent * (+59)
23:25:35 <HackEso> 2021-11-30 23:25:35.011 +0000 UTC November 30 Tuesday 2021-W48-2
23:26:52 <HackEso> The password of the month is Ebay DVD demagnetizer.
23:50:59 <HackEso> 2021-11-30 23:50:59.415 +0000 UTC November 30 Tuesday 2021-W48-2
23:51:16 <b_jonas> you'll be able to set new password soon