←2022-08 2022-09 2022-10→ ↑2022 ↑all
2022-09-01
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02:15:52 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102858&oldid=102836 * PixelatedStarfish * (+176) /* Compiling and Interpreting */
02:22:46 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102859&oldid=102858 * PixelatedStarfish * (+359) /* By Translation */
02:27:12 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102860&oldid=102859 * PixelatedStarfish * (+209) /* Minibell */
02:27:30 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102861&oldid=102860 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Minibell */
04:12:43 <esolangs> [[User:Lemonz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102862&oldid=102619 * Lemonz * (+77) /* de */
04:13:49 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102863&oldid=102861 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1794) /* Implementation */
04:16:11 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102864&oldid=102863 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1794) /* Test Cases */
04:32:16 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102865&oldid=102864 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7) /* Using the Interpreter */
04:32:31 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102866&oldid=102865 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Running a BunnyBell Programs */
04:33:15 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102867&oldid=102866 * PixelatedStarfish * (-12) /* Interpreter Extensibility */
05:50:14 <zzo38> I want to define 16-bit numbers which identify mahjong tiles, including all variants (flowers/seasons, jokers (of various kinds), red fives, haku pocchi, tens (I have seen a mahjong set that has one to ten of each suit, although most only go up to nine), glass, etc). These can then be used both internally and for protocol to display in front-ends.
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07:45:22 <esolangs> [[MASL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102868&oldid=102841 * Matto * (+137) Minor fixes + updated "last updated" text
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09:20:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Last * New user account
09:28:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102869&oldid=102839 * Last * (+252) /* Introductions */
09:35:13 <esolangs> [[7-8]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102870&oldid=102850 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+10) Amended a few orthographic mistakes and added a hyperlink to the brainfuck page.
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09:47:37 <esolangs> [[MASL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102871&oldid=102868 * Matto * (+37) Added author of language
10:02:29 <esolangs> [[Last]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102872 * Last * (+3403) Created page for LAST
10:07:28 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102873&oldid=102855 * Last * (+16) Added link to LAST
10:09:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Last * moved [[Last]] to [[LAST]]: Fix capitalization
10:09:58 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102876&oldid=102873 * Last * (-5) /* L */ Fix capitalization.
10:29:13 <esolangs> [[LAST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102877&oldid=102874 * Last * (+28) Add Category:Turing tarpits
10:32:39 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102878&oldid=80438 * Last * (+86) /* Survey */ Added LAST
10:33:10 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102879&oldid=102878 * Last * (+0) /* Survey */ Fix alphabetical order
10:42:50 <esolangs> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102880&oldid=97876 * Last * (+108) /* 2022 */ Added LAST
10:43:50 <esolangs> [[User:Last]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102881 * Last * (+46) Add self page
10:44:23 <esolangs> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102882&oldid=94758 * Last * (+11) /* See also */ Added LAST
10:46:22 <esolangs> [[User:Last]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102883&oldid=102881 * Last * (+0) . -> !
10:48:32 <esolangs> [[LAST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102884&oldid=102877 * Last * (+29) Add Category:Turing complete
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14:00:36 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102885&oldid=102845 * Ilikecreepers * (+104) /* lua code you can use */
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14:09:47 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102886&oldid=102885 * Ilikecreepers * (+64) /* basics */
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14:37:10 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102887&oldid=102886 * Ilikecreepers * (-64) /* basics */
14:37:51 <int-e> hmm I'm making another shape factory
14:38:49 <int-e> Because I believe I can reduce the ramp-up time to basically zero, and that would mean solving levels much faster.
14:39:10 <int-e> (ramp-up time: time from first produced piece to actually saturating the belt)
14:39:42 <int-e> (my version 3 factory takes over half a minute for that)
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16:35:10 <esolangs> [[DeadIFsh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102888 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+564) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''DeadIFsh''' is an esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] derived from [[Deadfish]]. ==Commands== In addition to Deadfish commands, DeadIFsh has following commands: {|..."
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20:23:40 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102889&oldid=102867 * PixelatedStarfish * (+83) /* Notes */
20:24:00 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102890&oldid=102889 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Notes */
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21:32:57 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102891&oldid=102890 * PixelatedStarfish * (+19) /* Influences: Shameless Theft */
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2022-09-02
08:41:25 <esolangs> [[User:WriteOnly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102892&oldid=92949 * WriteOnly * (+8)
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10:19:42 <esolangs> [[Conom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102893&oldid=102851 * TTG-Emily * (+1610) Added naming schema section
10:22:01 <esolangs> [[Conom]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102894&oldid=102893 * TTG-Emily * (+11) Fix Markdown-style inline code
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10:43:05 <esolangs> [[Conom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102895&oldid=102894 * TTG-Emily * (+2012) Added bytecode section
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21:17:04 <int-e> b_jonas_: Look at these perfectly lined up quarters :) https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-lineup.png
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22:40:19 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102896&oldid=102891 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Lists, Indexing, and Nesting */
22:40:43 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102897&oldid=102896 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Lists, Indexing, and Nesting */
23:18:40 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102898&oldid=102897 * PixelatedStarfish * (+43) /* Notes */
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2022-09-03
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00:27:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MrEnder0001 * New user account
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00:35:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102899&oldid=102869 * MrEnder0001 * (+301) /* Introductions */
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00:52:45 <esolangs> [[Hardfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102900&oldid=52969 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+168) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Hardfish programming language on GitHub.
00:53:15 <esolangs> [[Hardfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102901&oldid=102900 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+239) Added categories to the page.
00:55:26 <esolangs> [[Hardfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102902&oldid=102901 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+30) Introduced some constants defined without the use of the repetition command r.
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03:57:12 <esolangs> [[Hardfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102903&oldid=102902 * PkmnQ * (+146) /* (Shortest) Constants */ 4 or less chars
04:30:29 <esolangs> [[Hardfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102904&oldid=102903 * PkmnQ * (+466) /* (Shortest) Constants */ 5 chars
04:45:15 <esolangs> [[Hardfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102905&oldid=102904 * PkmnQ * (-23) /* (Shortest) Constants */
04:53:39 <zzo38> If you are playing D&D or GURPS or some other system, then what will a spell be called if you will take the form of a (somewhat larger than usual) insect in a copy of the past, which can affect the copy but does not affect the original?
05:12:48 <esolangs> [[Hardfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102906&oldid=102905 * PkmnQ * (+1223) /* (Shortest) Constants */ 6 chars
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07:21:26 <b_jonas_> int-e: you know perfectly aligned may just mean that you're delaying the ones that could be faster, right?
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10:27:03 <int-e> b_jonas: But I'll save a ton of time downstream
10:30:27 <int-e> (where I'm going, downstream will no longer produce *any* garbage pieces that mix old and new shapes)
10:34:22 <int-e> I still have to transfer this from testing to "production" though.
10:35:24 <int-e> The delay isn't huge anyway... it takes under 10 seconds from switching slice description to enabling output (at full rate, synchronized)
10:36:24 <int-e> And it would take at least 5s regardless, just due to internal delays in selection, painting, and cutting
10:56:46 <int-e> b_jonas: also consider this: There are 16 different (well, not quite due to symmetry) quarters to produce. You'll always be waiting for the slowest one of those.
10:57:37 <int-e> (at least the way I'm merging those, with a balanced (in terms of path lengths) binary tree.
11:06:19 <int-e> (I've thought about not doing a binary tree (but that would increase the critical path length) or not balancing it (so factories could be a tad closer to the hub, like windmill wings); I think neither of these are worth the cost for me.
11:33:54 <b_jonas> true
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15:52:32 <b_jonas> fungot, do fish have eyelids or are they inwincible?
15:52:32 <fungot> b_jonas: i want to dress you up as tallulah bankhead and cover you with" hear hear
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16:36:38 <fizzie> fungot: That's a bit weird.
16:36:39 <fungot> fizzie: to sum it up with: http://www.rafb.net/ paste/
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18:28:36 <pgimeno> is it frowned upon to add my name as the author of an interpreter in the wiki?
18:29:33 <esolangs> [[ORK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102907&oldid=65542 * Pgimeno * (+146) /* External resources */ Add online interpreter
18:30:14 <pgimeno> ^ That specifically.
18:30:26 <zzo38> I think that if you are the author of the interpreter, then it should not be so wrong to add it, but you are not supposed to require attribution when others make a copy of it.
18:31:13 <pgimeno> well, this one is online actually, it's not hard to make a local copy though
18:32:04 <zzo38> What you did is, I think, OK. (If it is not, then an administrator will see and change it, but it looks like OK to me)
18:32:11 <esolangs> [[ORK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102908&oldid=102907 * Pgimeno * (-1) /* External resources */ Fix URL
18:32:26 <pgimeno> ah thanks
18:38:10 <fizzie> I don't think _that_ is a problem, but I vaguely recall we had an Official Rule™ somewhere that you weren't supposed to add a main-namespace page about yourself; real articles should only be of people sufficiently prominent "in the field" that someone else was motivated to write an article about them. But I can't see that in either of [[Esolang:Policy]] or [[Esolang:Authors]], so maybe I just
18:38:12 <fizzie> imagined that.
18:38:14 <fizzie> (I don't have an opinion one way or the other.)
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19:04:34 <pgimeno> I don't think there was such rule by the time I wrote that page; my recollection is that there was some debate whether to use User:xxx pages or main namespace pages for names
19:07:11 <pgimeno> we're talking 2008 though, so my recollection may be wrong, but I try to be respectful to the rules. And I admit I haven't read them since that time.
19:07:43 <fizzie> I don't see any sign of such rule, so I probably just imagined it.
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20:03:36 <esolangs> [[Impossible.bf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102909 * Yes * (+1604) Created page with "Impossible.bf is invented by [[User:Yes]] and will make you bite the dust when it comes to programming. == The impossibleness == To convert a [[bf]] program into Impossible...."
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20:06:07 <esolangs> [[User:Yes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102910&oldid=102669 * Yes * (+23)
20:07:35 <esolangs> [[B--]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102911 * Nick-1666 * (+50) Created page with "WIP 03/09/2022 claimed before its yoinked from me!"
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20:25:52 <int-e> b_jonas: Yay, the plan is working out... https://html.duckduckgo.com/html/?q=ramp-up is about what I hoped for as almost instantaneous ramp-up. And latency between shape switch and first arrival at factory end is about 20s. Which is better than what I had before (That was about 25s, followed by half a minute of ramp-up). Oh and I'm running the v4 factory at 8x speedup while the old one ran at...
20:25:58 <int-e> ...10x speedup. So it's not even a fair comparison.
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20:31:26 <esolangs> [[TMSTMIK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102912 * Yes * (+151) Created page with "TMSTMIK ''or Time More Specifically The Minute Is Key'' is a esolang made by [[User:Yes]] and it's [[TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL]] but it changes every minute."
20:32:07 <esolangs> [[User:Yes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102913&oldid=102910 * Yes * (+17)
20:32:46 <esolangs> [[User:Yes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102914&oldid=102913 * Yes * (+17)
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20:49:40 <b_jonas> int-e: nice
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2022-09-04
00:37:55 <pgimeno> hm, if I understand the spec correctly, impossible.bf is not a well-defined language
00:38:57 <int-e> . o O ( so it *is* impossible? )
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01:51:28 <esolangs> [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102915&oldid=80772 * Suever * (-9) Update MATL Online URL
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02:33:20 <esolangs> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102916&oldid=50733 * Esolanger12345 * (+18)
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02:54:44 <esolangs> [[Idea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102917&oldid=64753 * Esolanger12345 * (+4)
03:42:44 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102918&oldid=78882 * Esolanger12345 * (+8)
03:43:01 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102919&oldid=102918 * Esolanger12345 * (+10)
03:44:14 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102920&oldid=102919 * Esolanger12345 * (+13)
03:44:40 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102921&oldid=102920 * Esolanger12345 * (-3)
03:46:46 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102922&oldid=102921 * Esolanger12345 * (+22)
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19:46:19 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah, finally... my V4 shapez factory works and has solved a dozen 200/s levels at 60s each at uniform 10x speedup (which is what I reached regularly previously) so far. I'll keep it running to see whether it hits a snag, or needs 70s for some. (I did solve a hundred earlier levels, so it's really up to the buffering part.) I didn't rebuild the upgrade shape stuff though, so the bypass...
19:46:25 <int-e> ...system is largely unused (I'm feeding one bypass with star shapes just to see that it works)
19:47:36 <int-e> (I wrote a small mod which allows me to cheat levels and upgrade shapes... because I didn't want to go through all that again, but I did want to test the early freeplay levels too)
19:50:21 <int-e> Oh yes, it does miss the 60s mark sometimes. I could probably tweak it so it doesn't do that.
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20:38:17 <int-e> b_jonas: anyway, https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-balanced-stacker.html is why I got so obsessed with perfectly lining up the outputs of the corner production.
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20:40:13 <int-e> This discovery was a bit of an accident. I wanted to make a binary tree so that the stackers wouldn't buffer anything. That the shapes would line up so nicely was a lucky accident.
20:41:10 <int-e> (Well, originally they only lined up in pairs, but then I realized that if I broke the symmetry for the first splitter, then things would work out perfectly.)
20:44:01 <int-e> > (71*60+7)/59 -- levels 811-869
20:44:03 <lambdabot> 72.32203389830508
20:44:10 <int-e> err
20:44:13 <int-e> > (61*60+7)/59 -- levels 811-869
20:44:14 <lambdabot> 62.152542372881356
20:44:16 <int-e> math is hard/
20:44:26 <int-e> or at least arithmetic is
21:00:42 <int-e> Well, updated the HTML a bit.
21:11:43 <int-e> Anyway. Glad that this is done... somehow these things always take more time than expected... (I had to fix a couple of bugs too, but there's always tweaking details which can take a lot of time... and of course there's a procrastination element.)
21:12:11 <int-e> Even happier that it actually works the way I hoped!
21:24:38 <int-e> > (101*60+51)/100
21:24:40 <lambdabot> 61.11
21:38:55 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't understand, what's this for?
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21:39:44 <b_jonas> ah, for leaving the buffers empty
21:39:49 <b_jonas> so you can produce the new shape faster
21:39:50 <b_jonas> ok
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21:43:38 <int-e> exactly
21:44:07 <int-e> clean buffers is I got that virtually zero ramp-up time
21:44:12 <int-e> +how
21:46:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Forty-Bot * New user account
21:48:31 <int-e> Ah, saving and loading destroys the perfection.
21:48:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102931&oldid=102899 * Forty-Bot * (+136)
21:49:12 <esolangs> [[Emoticon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102932&oldid=75968 * Forty-Bot * (+119) Add link to an interpreter
21:54:05 <b_jonas> oops
21:54:18 <int-e> I guess I'll keep it running overnight to verify that it's indeed not happening while running
21:54:27 <b_jonas> can you restore it by cleaning all belts in a large rectangle selection?
21:54:35 <int-e> Yes.
21:54:57 <int-e> (cleaning belts also resets splitters)
21:55:04 <b_jonas> oh
21:55:10 <b_jonas> I didn't know that, nice
21:55:18 <b_jonas> does it clear signals?
21:55:32 <int-e> on the wire layer? nah it does nothing there
21:55:40 <b_jonas> ok
21:55:41 <int-e> unless, hmm
21:55:53 <int-e> I've never actually tried that on the wire layer
21:56:23 <b_jonas> sorry, that's an esoteric question, but you know
21:57:00 <int-e> yeah I'll do a quick experiment
21:57:22 <b_jonas> if not then you can probably cut and paste at least
21:57:39 <int-e> yeah, though usually you can just cut and replace a single wire
21:58:38 <int-e> So as far as I can tell, it really has no effect while on the wire layer,
21:59:08 <int-e> Hmm. Maybe the internal splitter state (which side next) isn't saved?
22:01:58 <int-e> Ah, you probably had counters where this would be really useful
22:02:10 <b_jonas> not really
22:02:21 <b_jonas> I have a reset in logic for the counter
22:02:24 <int-e> I'm doing all the delays with single items on belts.
22:02:40 <b_jonas> need reset for when level shape changes
22:02:56 <int-e> (Which just got destroyed... no wonder the level wasn't being cleared. I did keep my manual control for the buffer in place.)
22:03:01 <int-e> Ah, that makes sense
22:04:36 <int-e> Another nice thing about virtually instantaneous ramp-up is that there's no need to count.
22:04:50 <b_jonas> why?
22:05:15 <int-e> because a fixed delay does the trick
22:05:36 <b_jonas> hmm
22:05:38 <int-e> unless you want to cope with levels between 27 and 811 efficiently... I decided not to try.
22:05:57 <b_jonas> so you implement fixed delay how? long belt?
22:07:07 <int-e> more or less. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-delay-track.png
22:07:40 <b_jonas> I see
22:08:09 <b_jonas> not much easier than counting but sure
22:08:11 <int-e> (the stripes are reminders that this is adjustable)
22:08:55 <int-e> it adjusts for changes in speedup... well, between 8-10. Between 10 and about 11.9 things are weird.
22:09:03 <b_jonas> sure, use a half-shape instead of a pigment and use cutters for fine-tuning delay :p
22:09:17 <int-e> Because in that range, belts get faster, but production doesn't.
22:10:12 <int-e> It's really odd. May be different for different versions... I've only used, uh, what is this, 1.5.5?
22:10:22 <int-e> Ah, yes.
22:10:41 <int-e> b_jonas: I mean, the splitters *are* counting of course.
22:11:53 <int-e> I just didn't want to think about flip-flops so much. Though I do have a few... both r-s-flip-flops and an edge-triggered memory cell for arbitrary values in a few places.
22:13:28 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-v4-wires.png ...there's lots of space there, and it's mostly actual wires.
22:14:16 <int-e> which isn't saying that it's trivial... but I mostly avoided the need to really squeeze logic into small spaces.
22:15:21 <int-e> another thing that saves mess up is actually winning levels... the statistics gathering resets :-/
22:16:54 <int-e> b_jonas: one of the trickier things to get right in this design is controlling the bypasses (for dealing with empty corners and absent slices)... if you enable them too early, it'll destroy the balance.
22:17:29 <int-e> I actually got it wrong in my first attempt.
22:17:30 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I mean counting the shapes that you get from the factory in some way. might not need flip-flops, you can just let another shape/pigment on a belt for each level shape that passes on one belt with minimal logic, and count the second shape.
22:18:28 <int-e> the thing that most annoyed me about counting is having to split things until the arrival interval is longer than a second
22:18:57 <int-e> hmm
22:19:03 <b_jonas> int-e: no need, you can ignore speed meters and use a storage to count fast
22:19:10 <int-e> oh
22:19:15 <int-e> that I didn't think of
22:19:47 <int-e> well, now I have no use for it :)
22:19:53 <int-e> but good to know
22:20:31 <b_jonas> that's how I count my shapes, though I only count one third of a belt, I split them anyway because I only produce 4 belts and need to flush 12 belts
22:20:46 <b_jonas> (you know, between 10 and 12 belts, but won't bother trying to split 4:11)
22:21:16 <b_jonas> by the way, Mindustry has horrible numbers. everything has weird ratios. you THINK vanilla Factorio is bad, with beacons and everything, but no. Mindustry is WAY worse
22:21:32 <int-e> ugh
22:21:38 <b_jonas> I keep forgetting how many of any machine I need
22:21:53 <int-e> that's one thing that shapez gets mostly right (there's an oddity with the paint mixers)
22:21:59 <b_jonas> incidentally, if you want *good* ratios, the Factorio mod Industrial revolution 2 has really nice round ones
22:22:06 <b_jonas> the designer really payed attention to it
22:22:13 <b_jonas> got them much much better than vanilla
22:22:40 <b_jonas> everything is like 8 miners per belt, 1.5 or 3 or 6 or 12 or 24 of any machine per belt, etc
22:22:49 <int-e> (I've mentioned this before... nominally, 5 paint mixers should fill a belt, but in practice I've seen gaps when doing that. Not that it really matters anymore.)
22:23:23 <int-e> (Because now I need a bit over half a belt worth of paint... it needs to be more to make up for paint loss in switchovers)
22:24:26 <b_jonas> incidentally, have you considered making all 32 quarter shapes (possibly storing in storages), selecting from them and merging them to a belt quickly with like a tree of storages? it seems like it's not worth it but not obviously impossible so it still bugs me
22:25:01 <int-e> I have thought about it.
22:25:34 <int-e> I don't think I can select from 32 different sources in a small enough space...
22:25:55 <b_jonas> Mindustry v6 has 7 types of solids that you mine from the ground, and they have 5 differeng mining speeds
22:26:04 <int-e> It would help with the resource gathering, I suppose.
22:26:15 <b_jonas> and it's not like round ratios anywhere
22:26:25 <int-e> or, well, could help. It's hard to pull that off.
22:27:15 <int-e> Btw, resource gathering. I got really lucky on this map... I could satisfy all stars directly and all wings by cutting and reassembling halves.
22:27:47 <b_jonas> those are then multiplied by one of 5 different speeds depending on the miner that you use and whether you rinse the miners
22:28:05 <b_jonas> int-e: I think I got lucky that way in my longest played map two. not completely sure.
22:28:21 <b_jonas> the map that I started more recently is less lucky
22:28:41 <b_jonas> and then many of the machines have weird ratios
22:28:53 <b_jonas> the belt speeds have weird ratios too
22:29:38 <int-e> start another map, hmm
22:29:40 <int-e> I won't.
22:29:51 <b_jonas> I *started* it
22:29:54 <b_jonas> not saying I'll complete it
22:29:59 <b_jonas> starting is cheap, you know
22:30:12 <int-e> I cheated for a reason... the early game was instructive the first time but now it looks just tedious
22:30:26 <b_jonas> I actually quite enjoy the early game in shapez.io
22:30:28 <b_jonas> it's well designed
22:30:37 <b_jonas> except for one or two levels
22:30:39 <int-e> I did enjoy it the first time
22:30:49 <b_jonas> no, I mean I played through it like 5 times
22:30:54 <b_jonas> and enjoyed it every time
22:31:02 <int-e> I don't see the appeal.
22:31:18 <b_jonas> well Factorio early game is even better, mind you
22:32:06 <int-e> Now if there was a kind of NG+ where you start out with 100k blueprints... maybe I'd be more interested
22:32:14 <int-e> (I could do that with a mod too)
22:33:03 <b_jonas> yeah, we Factorio players have all sorts of conflicting preferences of what kind of mods we like to make early game better or don't like because they feel cheating
22:33:22 <int-e> my mod does something useful as well... it has a key to pick nice zoom levels (where each block is 3x3 or 6x6 or 12x12 pixels exactly)
22:33:45 <b_jonas> nice
22:34:46 <int-e> And a key to clear useless shapes from the hub.
22:35:57 <int-e> The other two things are cheats... advance a level, and add upgrade shapes and blueprints to the hub: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-mumble.js
22:36:21 <b_jonas> I see
22:38:13 <int-e> As far as I can make out you get unrestricted access to the game data and APIs. But there's basically no documentation, gotta read the source.
23:17:53 <int-e> Oh well. I'm working around the savegame problem by having a button that can shut down the factory (well, the merging part of it which is the delicate one) and also restart it again.
23:18:09 <int-e> And I have autosaves turned off anyway.
23:28:26 <int-e> so one can now load https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/V4-final.bin and push the start/stop button and it should all work as designed.
23:29:04 <int-e> and to save, push the button again, wait for the level to complete and the belts to clear, then it's safe to save
23:29:32 <int-e> (TODO: figure out which part of the state is lost when saving)
23:29:56 <int-e> though I don't expect to be able to work around it.
23:30:39 <int-e> well, except for that button thing I did.
23:41:25 <esolangs> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102933&oldid=77125 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+203) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the Consequential programming language on GitHub and introduced the category tag Implemented.
23:42:13 <esolangs> [[Consequential]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102934&oldid=102933 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+26) Improved the formatting of code snippets in the command table.
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01:31:04 <zzo38> Is there a function in GNU C to retrieve the cookie value that has been passed to fopencookie?
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08:28:31 <int-e> b_jonas: FWIW, after some experiments it seems pretty clear what state isn't saved: Any items that are inside a production building (I've tested cutter, stacker, rotator (!), and color mixer) are lost when reloading. (Thanks to cheating I have a level 27 savegame at 1x speedup, which makes testing this quite easy.) Interestingly, the internal state of splitters *is* saved, and extractor progress...
08:28:37 <int-e> ...(time left until next item) is also saved.
08:29:37 <int-e> Which also means that my workaround (clearing the factories of items before saving) is pretty much the right thing to do.
08:38:23 <int-e> items buffered inside splitters are lost though. The only type of buffer that seems to be saved is the output buffer of filters
08:39:47 <int-e> (both outputs)
08:51:03 <int-e> Hmm, no, I was wrong... even splitters and/or mergers lose items... and that's without buffering. I guess their "processing" window is rather short so it doesn't happen all the time. So the fact that their internal bit (which side next) is saved is actually a bit surprising :P
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09:38:41 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh I also finally understood why it makes no real difference whether you saturate 12 belts or 16 at the hub, as long as it's enough to deliver 200/s... it's rather unintuitive to me, but the math does work out that way if you want to reliably win without making assumptions about the offset of the 10s window.
09:42:51 <int-e> (I've also finally realized how to divide by 3 cheaply)
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09:47:29 <wib_jonas> int-e: saves lose items inside certain buildings. I see.
09:50:14 <wib_jonas> Factorio is much more careful about saves because of network multiplayer. Clients have the whole game state and repeat most computations parallel to the server, mostly so that the graphics can show an up to date state better. When a client starts up, its game state gets initialized by the server sending a save. There are still a few things computed
09:50:15 <wib_jonas> only on the server. Mods need to be careful about this too or else they can't be used in multiplayer, and multiplayer is popular enough (plus good advertising for mods) that most mods want to work in multiplayer.
09:52:38 <wib_jonas> As for shapez.io I didn't really encounter these problems, except that one time in the rocket factory. I mostly built stuff robust enough, even when it cost optimizations, that I didn't notice when anything changed from a save. My shapez.io and factorio builds reflect my general programming style.
09:53:21 <wib_jonas> Given what you say though, it's possible that the museum of freeplay shapes could have lost a shape from a save-reload at some point.
09:53:43 <wib_jonas> I never tried to count the shapes in the museum and check the tally to the level number.
09:54:33 <int-e> Yeah it wasn't a problem except for my rocket factory (which uses the outputs of a 4-way-cutter in different ways, so different amounts of shapes are lost... eventually unbalancing the thing enough to slow it down)
09:55:35 <int-e> actually the logo factory was also affected by this, but it survived a larger number of load/save cycles without needing help
09:56:21 <int-e> anyway, I could flush belts for those and be happy... it's only noew that I'm really down to cycle-counting (so to speak) that it has become a "real" issue.
09:56:48 <int-e> "real"... in the end it's just a game.
09:56:54 <wib_jonas> I figured that there is also a theoretical but low chance that two adjacent freeplay levels use the same shape, in which case the circuit logic can't detect the leveling. Freeplay shapes have a pretty low entropy, less than 32 bits I think, because they're not uniformly distributed.
09:57:04 <int-e> right
09:57:25 <wib_jonas> Really? I don't think my logo factory was affected, but I guess you could make one that is.
09:57:32 <int-e> I'd have to manually control the delivery mechanism if that happened.
10:01:03 <int-e> oh no, it's the flower shape, because of this part: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-flower-detail.png
10:01:32 <int-e> which again, recombines outputs of a cutter with different intermediate processing steps
10:02:04 <int-e> ironically I can probably fix that in place by replacing the belt by mergers
10:02:16 <int-e> (which have an internal buffer... which can be lost)
10:02:23 <wib_jonas> Hmm.
10:04:16 <wib_jonas> I have parts in my freeplay factory that combine two quarters to opposite corners, but never three. I don't recall the details of how they're built.
10:04:44 <wib_jonas> But if they had locked up during saves that easily I would have noticed and fixed it.
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10:12:27 <int-e> The rocket factory is the most affected. You can actually *see* it in https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-rocket-clog.png ... the bottom one is freshly reset; the top one is after one save cycle (maybe two, not sure)... note how the belts from the lower cutter are populated to a different degree
10:12:34 <wib_jonas> In other eso news, I decided that my previous plan about Consumer society will never work.  I wanted only release anything about it after I design the standard library, write a reference interpreter with a certain eso property in its implementation (not fully obfuscated, mind you, still a readable reference interpreter, just doing one weird
10:12:34 <wib_jonas> thing), add optimizations for parts of the standard library (arithmetic mostly) in the implementation, write a pure Consumer society implementation of as much of the standard library as possible (so all of the numerics), implement some of the variants, write multiple example programs, AND write all the documentation. I will never finish that.
10:13:17 <int-e> and in fact, the upper factory has to wait for the left one of those pieces to travel from the cutter to the stacker... and that slows production.
10:13:21 <wib_jonas> So I'll compromise, and started to write the documentation and will release it before everything is done, probably before I release any part of the implementation.
10:13:31 <int-e> I *suspect* that it will never grind to a halt completely
10:14:18 <wib_jonas> I see
10:14:38 <wib_jonas> I still want a large chunk of the documentation written before I release it, so don't hold your breath.
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11:29:36 <esolangs> [[///]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102941&oldid=81323 * Xyzzy * (+442) /* Examples */
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12:42:38 <Nick> Hello!
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13:48:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PotatoeCat * New user account
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13:51:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102942&oldid=102931 * PotatoeCat * (+128) /* Introductions */
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17:21:52 <b_jonas> int-e: ah no, I've been careful with how I make the diagonal two quarter shapes. https://i.stack.imgur.com/A435z.jpg I split one output of the quad-cutter and glue the two split quarters. that won't lock up.
17:22:55 <b_jonas> takes a bit more space than rotating and gluing two outputs admittedly
17:23:10 <int-e> I see
17:24:37 <b_jonas> that's after painting btw, I just happened to take the screenshot when the output was to be gray
17:27:00 <b_jonas> here's a three-quarter in the logo factory: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0tdxe.jpg
17:27:28 <b_jonas> that one is partially locked up
17:27:29 <b_jonas> oops
17:27:43 <b_jonas> you can see that some of the belts are mostly empty
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17:28:55 <b_jonas> I should fix that if I get back to this save
17:29:22 <int-e> not sure... there's always the phenomenon that the first factories in the lines are filled up (because otherwise the splitter won't distribute enough items to the right... but I guess that should also be true for the 6th out of the 8.
17:29:57 <b_jonas> yeah
17:30:07 <b_jonas> splitters are half-half, not priority
17:30:16 <b_jonas> probably still produces at full speed
17:30:41 <int-e> I do think that I understand splitters quite well at this point :)
17:30:58 <b_jonas> heh
17:31:37 <int-e> hmm won't you have to cut this thing apart again down the road?
17:32:07 <b_jonas> yes, after stacking. one quarter is support for a floating part.
17:32:41 <int-e> ah, right.
17:33:55 <int-e> Hmm, funny. This is doing basically the same thing as https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-flower-detail.png
17:34:19 <int-e> your's a bit more compact
17:35:34 <b_jonas> how do you know if it's more compact? you don't see the rest of the factory. it's big.
17:35:42 <b_jonas> oh well
17:36:00 <int-e> No, I mean this detail does the same operation
17:36:50 <int-e> (if one of use rotates the input piece by 180 degrees, the outputs will be the same)
17:38:00 <int-e> it would be interesting to see what's inside your tunnels :/
17:38:43 <int-e> because the way I understand it currently, these are what should be getting clogged up in your thing
17:39:14 <int-e> (tunnels *don't* lose items when saving)
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17:45:08 <esolangs> [[BunnyBell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102943&oldid=102940 * PixelatedStarfish * (+96)
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17:48:56 <esolangs> [[Bellbase]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102944 * PixelatedStarfish * (+20) Created page with "[[Bunnybell]] rename"
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17:56:11 <b_jonas> "(tunnels *don't* lose items when saving)" => no surprise. in games like this, people sometimes use tunnels instead of long straight belts, so that less graphics has to be drawn
17:56:24 <b_jonas> so it would be very annoying if tunnels lost shapes
17:57:08 <b_jonas> also sometimes people use tunnels for belt weaving on a long distance too
17:57:20 <b_jonas> it doesn't happen too often in shapez.io because of the storage exploit
17:57:28 <b_jonas> but can still happen
17:57:33 <int-e> b_jonas: they might still use a few at transition points... but I have not caught the game in doing that
17:57:39 <b_jonas> I only have some short sections of belt weaving at a chokepoint
17:57:53 <b_jonas> well sure, there will be some belts, so not all shapes are lost
17:58:01 <int-e> I have *not* tested this for the storage.
17:58:04 <int-e> Hmm. Maybe later.
17:58:05 <b_jonas> oh, you mean "lose a few at transition points"
17:58:17 <int-e> oops, yes I do
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21:43:05 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102945&oldid=102887 * Ilikecreepers * (+271) /* the complcated stuff */
21:46:23 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102946&oldid=102945 * Ilikecreepers * (+129) /* the complcated stuff */
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00:28:58 <esolangs> [[Bbe doc downloadable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102947&oldid=102424 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4712)
00:29:17 <esolangs> [[Bbe doc downloadable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102948&oldid=102947 * PixelatedStarfish * (-267)
00:30:38 <esolangs> [[Bbe doc downloadable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102949&oldid=102948 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1639)
01:03:29 <esolangs> [[Bbe doc downloadable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102950&oldid=102949 * PixelatedStarfish * (-76)
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09:47:43 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102951&oldid=102946 * Ilikecreepers * (+31) /* control flow */
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09:53:48 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102952&oldid=102951 * Ilikecreepers * (-1) /* the complcated stuff */
09:55:51 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102953&oldid=102952 * Ilikecreepers * (-2) /* lua code you can use */
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10:05:22 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102954&oldid=102953 * Ilikecreepers * (+0) /* the complcated stuff */
10:06:18 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102955&oldid=102954 * Ilikecreepers * (-2)
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10:10:06 <int-e> b_jonas: I think I have figured out the production building story. There's *four* layers. There's an input layer that accepts items from the outside. That can buffer a single item per input slot. Then, there's the actual processing layer, which collects up to two batches of input (two per input slot); processing starts when the first batch is complete. The produced items are moved to an ejection...
10:10:12 <int-e> ..."queue" (but only if it's empty, so that holds at most one batch). And that feeds into an output layer which is similar to the input layer, holding one item per slot ready to be taken by a neighbour. Of these layers, only the last one is saved.
10:13:37 <int-e> So in the simple one input, one output case there can be 5 items in the building, 1 or 2 of which have been fully processed. (production only happens at the front of the batch queue.)
10:14:06 <int-e> And this matches what I see in experiments.
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10:33:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102956&oldid=78393 * Ilikecreepers * (+122)
10:35:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102957&oldid=102956 * Ilikecreepers * (+10)
10:35:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102958&oldid=102957 * Ilikecreepers * (+0)
10:35:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102959&oldid=102958 * Ilikecreepers * (+1)
10:41:16 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102960&oldid=102955 * Ilikecreepers * (+53) /* the hold on to your stuff it's going to get more complcated stuff/multi operations */
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11:03:24 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102961&oldid=102960 * Ilikecreepers * (+89) /* lua code you can use */
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11:13:51 <wib_jonas> int-e: ok. is every item in tunnels and storage tanks saved?
11:14:08 <wib_jonas> and what happens to the splitters, mergers, balancers?
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11:22:47 <int-e> splitters, mergers, and balancers are production units
11:23:07 <wib_jonas> I see
11:23:45 <int-e> so... splitters hold 6 items internally, two of which are saved; balancers hold seven items, again 2 of which are saved; mergers hold 6 items, one of which is saved
11:24:46 <int-e> I have not dug deeply enough into storage, tunnels, and belts yet. Observationally they don't lose items. But I haven't checked corner cases... like what happens when a storage is full.
11:25:49 <int-e> Btw I don't see how I can use the storage as a detector... if an item simply passes through, none of the outputs are triggered.
11:26:34 <int-e> Of course the game is a moving target; this may have been different in the past.
11:27:11 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, there was some trick to it. if you don't figure it out from my old screenshots, ping me in the evening and I'll look it up in my savefile. or give you my savefile if you prefer.
11:28:00 <int-e> I guess I can put a filter directly behind it and hope for the best
11:28:20 <wib_jonas> yes, I think it was something like that.
11:29:38 <wib_jonas> also I'm not claiming that it can count a full throughput belt, it's after splitting the belt three ways
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11:31:01 <int-e> Yeah that works.
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11:32:13 <int-e> wib_jonas: thanks: https://nitter.it/pic/orig/enc/bWVkaWEvRmJ5cFBYbVh3QUFjRW5GLmpwZw==
11:33:09 <int-e> The monitor still flickers at speedup 10, so it does seem to detect the items individually. (science ;) )
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11:35:59 <int-e> The trash disposal is required to cope with changes in the item (when changing, items get lost)... oh and I think it'll be hard to make logic that copes with the full rate... my flip-flops need pulses of length 2 to work, so 60/20 = 3 ticks is rather tight.
11:37:46 <wib_jonas> int-e: yes, that's why I'm counting 1/12 of all the shapes produced, or maybe just 1/24 or 1/48 if I have dividers in there, I don't recall
11:38:25 <wib_jonas> you're already delivering your items to the hub on multiple lanes, so might as well use that to not count all items
11:39:11 <int-e> Well, my v3 counted 1/32 of the items and that's basically good enough
11:39:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Six instruction language :)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102962 * Xyzzy * (+114) Created page with "Should there be are talk page?<br> --~~~~"
11:40:07 <int-e> > 32/80 -- resulting granularity in seconds
11:40:09 <lambdabot> 0.4
11:40:28 <esolangs> [[User:Xyzzy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102963 * Xyzzy * (+40) Created page with "I haven't think of what to put here yet."
11:40:31 <int-e> err
11:40:34 <int-e> > 32/20 -- resulting granularity in seconds
11:40:36 <lambdabot> 1.6
11:40:56 <int-e> not great, but when times are between 1 to 2 minutes, not terrible either.
11:40:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:Xyzzy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102964 * Xyzzy * (+105) Created page with "You can now talk in here! --~~~~"
11:42:53 <int-e> wib_jonas: I wouldn't mind looking at your save file, I feel I've done enough exploration on my own
11:43:11 <int-e> and I bet many things are quite different
11:51:34 <int-e> hmm github seems to have issues right now?
11:51:48 <int-e> (getting sporadic errors)
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14:09:13 <fizzie> Are you allowed to use the SI binary prefixes standalone, without a unit attached to them? If you have, say, 7 * 2**20 as a scalar quantity, could you say it's seven mebis in colloquial conversation?
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14:26:58 <int-e> no
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14:28:03 <fizzie> :/
14:28:35 <wib_jonas> fizzie: traditionally no, though some people suggest that we should use them that way, or else that we invent a unit of measure with value 1 specifically for this purpose. I'll try to find links later.
14:29:42 <int-e> yeah, norms can be changed
14:30:10 <int-e> That "no" came really from me imagining somebody saying that to me... I'd ask what they mean.
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14:36:46 <wib_jonas> http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2010-09-03.1791.html argues that we should use "giga" and "tera" to avoid the ambiguity with "billion"
14:39:12 <wib_jonas> alternately we could introduce something like "unit" as a new unit of measure and "ε" as its abbreviation, value 1, and use "gigaunit" and "teraunit", abbreviated "Gε" and "Tε"
14:39:56 <int-e> we already have rad ;)
14:46:51 <wib_jonas> also someone suggested that we should introduce a new decimal unit *prefix* with value 1, so that you can emphasize the lack of a prefix. eg. you could say "four unitgrams" (abbreviated "4 εg") to make it clear that you're not talking about just four milligrams, nor about four kilograms.
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14:47:35 <wib_jonas> no, this doesn't necessarily mean that you'd talk about unitunits and εε, because presumably we'd try to find better \names for them first.
14:49:15 <fizzie> I don't know why, but "4 εg" sounds like it _should_ be a really small quantity.
14:49:39 <fizzie> Maybe just because the only other prefix with a greek letter abbreviation (µ) is a small one; plus epsilons are tiny.
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14:55:45 <int-e> `? password
14:55:48 <HackEso> The password of the month is ridled woht tpyo.s
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15:10:08 <wib_jonas> fizzie: yes, so you can find a better name and abbreviation first, but it's not clear what it should be. both prefix abbreviations and unit abbreviations are hard, because there are one and two letter unit abbreviations and you mustn't cause conflict between the combinations. or at least mustn't cause new conflicts.
15:10:38 <wib_jonas> and naming is hard, you can't just use "one" or "uno" or any variant of that, because you don't want to make "thirty-one" ambiguous in any language
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15:15:21 <wib_jonas> also multiple people independently suggested that if "Z" means 10**21 and "Y" means 10**24 then we should extend this backwards through the alphabet like "X" means 10**27, "W" means 10**30, etc, and downwards "x" means 10**-27, "w" means 10**-30, so literally ALL the ASCII latin alphabet and all letters an integer number of indexes before it are
15:15:22 <wib_jonas> unit prefix abbreviations.
15:20:01 <wib_jonas> I guess we can extend that backwards backwards too, so since "y" is 10**-24 and "z" is 10**-21 then "{" would be 10**-18 (but we use "a" instead per convention), "|" would be 10**-15 (but we use "f" instead per convention), "}" would be 10**-12, "~" would be 10**-9, DEL would be 10**-6, but if you want to figure out what the right character is for
15:20:02 <wib_jonas> 10**-0 you'll have to decide what the One True Encoding is.
15:22:50 <wib_jonas> it could be High Octet Preset the iso-8859-1/UCS-16 control character, or "ü" per cp437, etc. You'd think that "ü" would be kind of appropriate, you'd call the prefix ünit, but whereever I read the proposal to have such a prefix pointed out that micro is often abbreviated "u" so we shouldn't use "u" as the abbreviation for unit as well.
15:23:50 <wib_jonas> or just let it roll around a 7-bit character set and use Start Of Heading the ASCII control character
15:25:26 <wib_jonas> https://xkcd.com/2668/ lol
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15:55:56 <wib_jonas> `olist 1267
15:55:57 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1267.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:41:57 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102965 * Mousetail * (+7352) Add page on cell tail
17:43:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102966&oldid=102876 * Mousetail * (+15) Add Cell tail
17:47:50 <b_jonas> int-e: shapez.io save: https://drive.google.com/file/d/19ggjJXABtIYL939rPEMLwaaViKYb5UNM/view?usp=sharing
17:51:33 <int-e> got it. will have a look in a bit
17:53:10 <int-e> mine is still https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/V4-final.bin
17:53:37 <int-e> and lacks the standard factories
18:01:51 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102967&oldid=102965 * Mousetail * (+86) /* Concepts */
18:05:08 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102968&oldid=102967 * Mousetail * (+95) /* Concepts */
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18:09:36 <int-e> b_jonas: heh that's a lot of blueprint shapes :)
18:11:19 <int-e> also your semi-harvester (my name for a device that takes ah XxXxYyZz shape and turns it into XxXxXxXx, discarding the rest) is better than mine, I didn't think of using a balancer in the middle of it.
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18:15:35 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102969&oldid=102968 * Mousetail * (+30) /* Numbers */
18:16:31 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102970&oldid=102969 * Mousetail * (+2) /* Ranges */
18:18:12 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102971&oldid=102970 * Mousetail * (+0) /* Numbers */
18:22:24 <b_jonas> ah, the windmill maker from half windmills
18:22:48 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102972&oldid=102971 * Mousetail * (+2) /* Input Mode */
18:23:08 <b_jonas> int-e: could you figure out the shape counters?
18:23:18 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102973&oldid=102972 * Mousetail * (+0) /* Output Mode */
18:23:52 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102974&oldid=102973 * Mousetail * (+2) /* Debug Mode */
18:27:47 <b_jonas> it looks like I'm counting one belt to the hub, so a one third full belt
18:28:42 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102975&oldid=102974 * Mousetail * (+6) /* Combining Operators */
18:29:42 <b_jonas> and it's just a storage with a filter after it, filter opens after the storage becomes nonempty so there's probably two or three ticks while the non-empty signal goes out
18:30:19 <b_jonas> and then there's a circuit that makes the pulse longer, not for the storage and filter itself, but for the counter logic
18:30:44 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102976&oldid=102975 * Olus2000 * (+4) /* Primes */ joined code block
18:30:55 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102977&oldid=102976 * LyricLy * (+268) Fix markup and spelling
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18:31:55 <esolangs> [[Celltail]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102978&oldid=102977 * Olus2000 * (+1) /* Hello World */ precise input definition
18:33:41 <int-e> b_jonas: actually, they're exactly the same size, that's even more amazing: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-semi-harvesters.png (mine, yours, and a hybrid design that has marginally smaller footprint but isn't attractive in practice because these things will be put side by side)
18:33:53 <int-e> b_jonas: I saw the binary counter in action, let me check the detector
18:34:15 <int-e> I did *not* try to follow the counter logic...
18:35:17 <int-e> ah I actually did see the detector momentarily and yeah, it uses a storage followed by a filter that's triggered by the storage; it should be good for half-rate belts like that
18:35:21 <b_jonas> the counter is a binary counter, except that its bits are shifted in time. the nth level stores the nth bit of what the number of shapes was n shapes ago
18:35:49 <b_jonas> but I have no idea how the museum single-shape separator works
18:35:57 <int-e> I also found the 2:1 splitter
18:36:04 <int-e> or balancer
18:36:14 <int-e> hmm
18:36:28 <int-e> nah it's a splitter in the shapez terminology: one input, two outputs
18:36:59 <b_jonas> I knew how it worked when I built it and I'm not touching it now, that's all I know
18:37:36 <b_jonas> int-e: the 3-way splitter is basically common knowledge because the Factorio folks have been researching this sort of nonsense long ago (and are still finding new and better designs for Factorio)
18:38:27 <b_jonas> the specific compact builds differ, but the principles are the same
18:39:41 <int-e> No surprise there, but I didn't have that background :)
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18:41:13 <int-e> b_jonas: what I eventually came up with on my own was https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-3-way-splitter.png
18:41:37 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, that works
18:41:38 <int-e> which... really is equivalent
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18:42:21 <int-e> (since the balancers can be replaced by splitters and moved along the track)
18:42:29 <int-e> (except for the first one)
18:42:59 <int-e> but it /feels/ different because I thought of it as a 4-way splitter with one feedback loop
18:43:16 <int-e> so I didn't spot the 2:1 splitter component.
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18:43:53 <int-e> the item separater does look quite elaborate
18:45:55 <b_jonas> now that I look at it, it doesn't seem how it could handle the weird unlikely case (when it can't separate a shape by the time the level jumps) correctly, but maybe I'm just stupid
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18:46:09 <b_jonas> s/seem how/seem like/
18:46:20 <b_jonas> that was certainly the intention, and some of the complexity is that
18:46:53 <b_jonas> the other part of the complexity is I think that it can somehow test if two shapes got separated to its buffer and flush it and retry in that case, and I think that's also an unlikely case
18:49:47 <int-e> Ah I see why you have undefined values in there, you can use those to reset a memory cell
18:51:23 <b_jonas> yes, I use the simple 1-transistor memory cells, where you just send anything other than empty on the input wire for two cycles to write the cell, and undefined when you don't want to change the value
18:53:01 <b_jonas> but only the stuff near the hub has memory cells, nothing in the freeplay factory does
18:53:25 <b_jonas> the factory just does straightforward bounded time no-loops computation
18:53:46 <int-e> I can mostly follow the item extractor... and as you mentioned before, a lot of the complication is from on keeping producing the previous shape if the extractor hasn't succeeded yet.
18:54:12 <b_jonas> where bounded time doesn't mean fast; it's not optimized
18:55:40 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but the very first filter, the only one that can even let shapes in from the main belts, it seems like the logic can only give that one the hub shape or undefined
18:56:01 <b_jonas> so if the hub shape had changed, how would it ever let a shape in?
18:57:37 <b_jonas> it really looks like I just messed that case of the logic up, and haven't noticed because it never occurs
18:57:49 <int-e> the garbage is released to the right
18:58:21 <b_jonas> unless the logic is such that it doesn't let the big storages flush into the hub until the museum copies are sent, and that's why the hub shape can't change?
18:58:35 <int-e> so the path is clear for the new shapes to get into the filter
18:58:51 <b_jonas> but if that's the case then why is there a memory cell for what shape is sent to the factory?
18:59:06 <int-e> Oh I see what you mean
18:59:25 <int-e> yeah, it's probably broken for that case... which will never happen
19:00:08 <b_jonas> good to know
19:00:12 <int-e> but that transistor there should be using the shape line to the left
19:00:15 <int-e> as input
19:00:30 <int-e> because that'll be the old shape in that impossible case
19:01:28 <int-e> let me verify by breaking things so that this case actually happens :P
19:02:27 <b_jonas> it would help if the game had pause, change speed, single-step controls
19:02:39 <b_jonas> for debugging logic mechanisms like this
19:03:58 <int-e> Oh wait, it *does* prevent buffering, as you said
19:06:41 <b_jonas> wait, do you mean it prevents *filling* the buffers, rather than preverts flushing the buffers?
19:07:00 <b_jonas> yeah, looks like that
19:07:08 <int-e> As is, yes it does. But then what's the purpose of the separate shape line...
19:07:42 <b_jonas> probably an artifact I left in and didn't notice that it was stupid
19:10:55 <int-e> well it would make sense if you wanted to keep producing the old shape when the level is solved... maybe that was the original plan
19:10:56 <b_jonas> it doesn't ask the factory to stop production as soon as it starts to flush, which is something that could perhaps make sense, though it also has a drawback when the first flush fails
19:11:10 <b_jonas> yes, that was probably the original plan
19:11:52 <b_jonas> and if that does work then that's kind of still useful, because it would at least remember the shape in the logic wires until I can fix the museum mechanism
19:13:29 <b_jonas> well, my design certainly isn't optimized, but at least it looks like it's reliable
19:13:33 <b_jonas> which is what I went for
19:18:36 <b_jonas> copying everything on the map costs less than 1_600_000 glue apparently (it increases by the 1.10th power of the number of buildings copied in a single paste), so yes, I have a bit too much glue
19:24:38 <b_jonas> but it doesn't matter unless I build more rocket+logo+bouquet factories, and that won't happen on this map
19:25:17 <int-e> it'll break when the speedup is too small (the item detected before the filter has to reach the filter in... uh... 5 or 6 cycles?)
19:27:00 <b_jonas> this didn't exist when the speedup was too small
19:27:48 <b_jonas> also if the speedup is too small then the 12 lanes to the core aren't able to satisfy levels
19:29:50 <b_jonas> I had the museum since the first freeplay level, but it was manually controlled through the first few levels, and I think even then the speedup was high enough
19:30:04 <int-e> but other than that it should be robust. maybe a bit redundant... using the 0/1 outputs of those detectors serves no purpose, I think (you're already checking the shapes)
19:30:15 <b_jonas> since building enough of a factory to jump the first few freeplay levels took me a lot of time, and the upgrade shapes accumulated during that
19:30:20 <int-e> you should have speedup 7 or 8 when you reach freeplay
19:30:36 <int-e> which is fast enough as far as I can make out
19:31:19 <b_jonas> yes, but for the first freeplay level I built a factory that at least tried to be configurable for many freeplay shapes, so it was a lot of time after that when I completed the first level
19:31:33 <b_jonas> that the factory had all sorts of issues doesn't change that
19:32:00 <int-e> Anyway. a bit crufty maybe, but it works. There's a really clever bit actually where it relies on threestate logic for those filters
19:33:05 <b_jonas> hehe, thanks\
19:33:26 <b_jonas> have you looked at how the freeplay factory itself works? that one I do still understand
19:34:59 <int-e> Oh, *that* is what the 0/1 outputs are used for... you wait for them to become 0 to stop draining.
19:36:57 <b_jonas> the factory control logic also has a part that is only there to handle a rare case, but at least it's like 1 in 1000 freeplay level rare one, not a you'll never see one rare one
19:37:22 <int-e> There's also a pre-selection filter that's controlled by the logic here. So elaborate.
19:38:03 <b_jonas> I could have left it out and manually intervene once every 1000 levels when it comes up, but by then I may have forgotten how the factory works and where I have to intervene
19:38:07 <int-e> so okay, when I said I understood that item separator, I was clearly lying :P
19:38:43 <b_jonas> it's possible that the parts that you don't understand are just redundant
19:39:06 <b_jonas> I never tried to build a minimal museum specimen separator, just a reliably working one
19:43:14 <b_jonas> the first filter I definitely need, because the factory can emit incorrect shapes during warm-up, and I don't want those in the museum
19:44:08 <int-e> oh I think what happens on the left... the shape is delayed until the flip-flop has actually reset
19:44:32 <int-e> and you do that by checking the flip-flop output rather than just having a fixed delay by two ticks.
19:45:36 <int-e> (why two? because in the flip-flop, the signal has to propagate through both the and AND the OR gates to prevent flickering)
19:46:49 <int-e> there may have been actual plans to delay the propagation for longer, but they're not realized here
19:47:16 <b_jonas> I think it's possible that I don't *quite* trust the exact delays in logic, thinking that maybe the shapez.io engine tries to distributed evalulate the map and multiple large sections are evaluated kind of asynchroniously. this is silly, knowing how the implementation works, but still.
19:47:29 <int-e> Ah, wait
19:47:38 <int-e> it might still be draining and it's waiting for that as well
19:47:39 <int-e> never mind.
19:48:03 <int-e> So... it does serve a purpose in those impossible cases :P
19:48:52 <int-e> Is it possible that the filter at the entry was a later addition?
19:49:18 <int-e> Because if it was, there'd be a significant time spent on draining.
19:50:11 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=102979 * Nick-1666 * (+59) Created page with " body { background-color: white; color: black; }"
19:51:02 <b_jonas> I don't know, I have a lot of older savefiles but don't want to dig through them
19:55:02 <int-e> Okay, I mostly get the counter too. Top half has the counter, bottom half has carries; values alternate between outer memory cells and inner memory cells; computation happens when moving from inner cells to outer cells
19:56:11 <b_jonas> int-e: correct
19:56:14 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102980&oldid=102979 * Nick-1666 * (+18279)
19:58:01 <b_jonas> it's very likely much bigger than it needs to be, even with using logic only rather than splitters to divide
19:58:19 <b_jonas> and I mean bigger per bit, I don't mean that the higher order bits don't get any use
19:58:20 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102981&oldid=102980 * Nick-1666 * (+158)
19:58:31 <b_jonas> there are two bits above what I need to count
19:58:39 <b_jonas> or three
19:59:27 <b_jonas> it uses one-gate memory cells that update in two cycles with a conflict in the first cycle, rather than the traditional flipflops
19:59:33 <b_jonas> you can't do this in real electronics
20:01:06 <b_jonas> the long horizontal blue wires are the clocks, two alternating ones
20:01:35 <b_jonas> the middle one is active for like 5 or 6 cycles, the outer one in between
20:03:25 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102982&oldid=102981 * Nick-1666 * (-5)
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20:07:11 <int-e> b_jonas: I found one of the infamous symmetry detectors
20:07:50 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102989&oldid=102988 * Nick-1666 * (+94)
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20:09:08 <int-e> I'm amazed that you bothered with that... it seems to bothersome to get right
20:09:37 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102992&oldid=102991 * Nick-1666 * (+52)
20:10:42 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102993&oldid=102992 * Nick-1666 * (+39)
20:11:00 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, it probably isn't worth just to save a few stackers
20:11:33 <b_jonas> int-e: it would save much more if it weren't for that the stupid freeplay shape randomizer algorithm can remove a quarter that breaks the symmetry
20:11:41 <int-e> so is the failed symmetry case the rare one?
20:11:46 <b_jonas> no
20:11:52 <b_jonas> the failed symmetry case is pretty common
20:11:56 <int-e> okay
20:12:01 <esolangs> [[User:Nick-1666/vector.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102994&oldid=102993 * Nick-1666 * (+120)
20:12:03 <b_jonas> the rare case is a subset of that,
20:12:59 <int-e> (I guess it's not actually a failed symmetry... it's a mirror symmetry with a hole in it)
20:13:29 <b_jonas> when the symmetry fails, and the shape before removal has diagonal symmetry, but the two other layers happen to have central symmetry and so I detect the symmetry of the whole shape incorrectly
20:14:06 <b_jonas> that's why I have to detect symmetry twice, once for how I assemble the entire shape, and once for how to make the layer that has the broken symmetry
20:14:27 <int-e> ah.
20:16:09 <b_jonas> the failed symmetry is common because most shapes are missing a quarter, and that breaks the symmetry UNLESS the shape is central symmetric (1/3 of all shapes IIRC) or the shape is diagonal symmetric (1/3 chance) and the missing quarter is from the two quarters that are supposed to be identical (1/2 chance)
20:16:45 <b_jonas> or unless there's an accidental symmetry on the layer with the missing quarter
20:16:51 <b_jonas> no wait
20:16:58 <b_jonas> that doesn't apply
20:17:04 <b_jonas> only the first two exceptions
20:17:13 <b_jonas> and the shapes that don't miss any quarters
20:17:19 <int-e> it's also funny that you decided to mix all colors in large quantities while I rely on a mixer that can produce a merry mix of colors up to, uh. 0.8 belts worth.
20:17:36 <int-e> (total)
20:18:14 <b_jonas> int-e: older versions used to have fewer mixers, and some buffers for the pigment
20:18:46 <b_jonas> I extended later, which is why the part of the factory around the mixers is so clamped that there's some belt weaving
20:19:02 <b_jonas> I also used to have fewer windmills and buffers for those
20:19:04 <int-e> I also have buffers but they may not actually be needed... I haven't tested that though; they're so cheap to put in.
20:19:11 <b_jonas> and I think fewer stars too
20:19:37 <b_jonas> sure, the buffers are cheap
20:20:07 <int-e> (The production *does* keep up with the factory on average, but I was worried about switchover starving for paint, which would destroy the delicate balance of the square feed that I now rely on)
20:21:07 <int-e> Because switchover causes a surge in paint consumption due to draining the belts.
20:21:23 <b_jonas> plus because of how freeplay shapes are generated, you need twice as much white pigments as the six colors, and white is the most expensive to mix
20:21:36 <int-e> windmills are such a pain to gather
20:22:11 <int-e> Yeah, my calculation of consumption is based on having everything painted white.
20:22:33 <b_jonas> yes they are
20:22:36 <int-e> At which point each slice factory will, in the long run, consume 0.5 belts worth of red, green, and blue.
20:23:00 <int-e> Plus a bit for pigments lost in switchovers.
20:24:00 <b_jonas> yeah, I produce as much pigment and shape as could sustain the four belts of any freeplay shape indefinitely, even the very unlikely all purple all windmill shape
20:25:17 <b_jonas> in the new map that I started, all I built from the freeplay factory so far is the shape producers: 16 belts of circles, 16 belts of squares, 16 belts of stars, 16 belts of windmill. I don't have pigment or any of the shape assembling parts yet.
20:31:16 <b_jonas> though before I continue to build the freeplay factory there, I'll have to build some more logo factory.
20:37:04 <int-e> wait, does it never put holes into the bottom layer?
20:39:45 <b_jonas> I dunno, I thought it would put holes in any of the four layers, but only one quarter hole in the whole shape
20:40:00 <b_jonas> but I might be misremembering
20:40:09 <int-e> Ah, no... there's at most one hole, so there are two adjacent layers without holes, and you seem to exploit that.
20:40:20 <b_jonas> exactly
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20:41:32 <b_jonas> the two layers without holes share a symmetry, so I paint and stack whole shapes for it, then cut the two-layer shapes to a half and two quarters, then join them
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20:42:21 <b_jonas> this way I have to do fewer joins, because I'm doing two joins on two layers at the same time, rather than two one-layer joins separately for each layer
20:42:31 <b_jonas> also fewer cuts
20:43:14 <b_jonas> in the third layer I can't do this optimization, but I still use the symmetry
20:43:42 <b_jonas> in the layer with the whole I can't really optimize anything, because it may be made of a whole and three quarters of different color and shape a
20:43:50 <b_jonas> s/shape a/shape/
20:44:33 <b_jonas> luckily the circuit that detects the symmetry isn't too hard, because we have a gate that can compare any shape, even multi-layer shapes
20:46:00 <b_jonas> so if the shape were symmetric, I could just cut it to four quarters, then compare which pairs of quarters are the same
20:46:11 <b_jonas> I wouldn't have to decompose the layers
20:46:28 <b_jonas> but since the missing quarter breaks the symmetry, I do have to break the shape into layers in the logic too
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20:56:23 <int-e> s/whole/hole/
20:57:22 <int-e> Anyway, I think I have a high-level picture of it now and it's rather complicated.
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20:58:19 <int-e> On another note, you really love balancers. And things look very different when zoomed out because they become thick black blocks.
21:04:23 <b_jonas> yeah
21:04:32 <b_jonas> if we had priority balancers I wouldn't need so many
21:04:42 <b_jonas> output priority at least
21:04:51 <b_jonas> I mean admittedly I don't need this many anyway
21:05:08 <b_jonas> note that I played shapez.io *before* I started playing factorio
21:05:15 <b_jonas> and built almost all of that factory then
21:05:22 <b_jonas> so I didn't really know how belts should work
21:05:28 <b_jonas> there are lots of stupid things because of that
21:05:31 <b_jonas> but still, no priority balancers
21:06:02 <b_jonas> unless you want to put storages everywhere
21:06:49 <int-e> I actually wish that there was a smaller storage unit. Capacity 100 or so.
21:07:39 <int-e> Those storages I have after the color mixers and before color selection? I had to wait for them to fill up. It took ages.
21:09:02 <int-e> Though I was clever about it... I copied them relatively early, while I was still debugging the first factory.
21:09:29 <int-e> But with a smaller storage, I wouldn't have had to worry about that.
21:12:44 <b_jonas> if you don't need the full capacity of the storage then why do you need to wait for it to fill up? do you have some complex logic that cares about it?
21:13:28 <int-e> Because the color mixer I have is highly unbalanced... it relies on getting stuck on most outputs.
21:14:10 <b_jonas> jesus
21:14:18 <b_jonas> you managed to overcomplicate a *color mixer*?
21:15:07 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-combined-mixer.png
21:15:26 <int-e> it mixes all colors from three primary color inputs
21:15:42 <b_jonas> ah I see
21:16:03 <b_jonas> you share the pigment mines between mixed and unmixed
21:16:07 <int-e> and when it's saturated like that, taking out one white will trickle up and consume one of each primary
21:16:28 <int-e> but when demand exceeds supply, the right stages will be starved.
21:16:29 <b_jonas> I don't do that because pigment mines are cheap
21:17:01 <int-e> actually, no. the green line is the one that gets starved the most
21:17:17 <int-e> because there's 8 splitters to traverse
21:17:27 <int-e> so only one in 256 greens makes it through
21:18:03 <b_jonas> and you didn't want to just add a few more miners and belts to fix this?
21:18:25 <int-e> Pigment mines are cheap but they still add heavily to the overall footprint. I also didn't route resources very systematically so it would increase my effort considerably.
21:18:45 <int-e> there's nothing to fix once it's filled up.
21:19:38 <b_jonas> I just decided to go heavy in all the constant production, since they can be far from the hub and their compactness doesn't matter, except possibly to conserve out of universe computation power and thus give faster fps, but I didn't care too much about that
21:19:45 <int-e> And I thought of this for my V3 factory and I liked it.
21:20:10 <int-e> unfortunately, long belts affect time taken per tick
21:20:28 <int-e> Somehow. I'm not quite sure why.
21:20:54 <b_jonas> yeah, sadly shapez.io is implemented so slow that you actually have to care about computation power, it's just that that's not the game I want to play when I'm playing a game
21:21:03 <int-e> (I still haven't looked in full detail at the belt path machinery)
21:21:16 <b_jonas> I'm fine with optimizing for fast computation for work, but not when I'm playing a game
21:21:54 <int-e> I /think/ I've seen that it's actually shifting arrays to take items off a belt path?
21:22:25 <b_jonas> shifting perl arrays (fast for large arrays) or shifting python arrays (slow for large arrays)?
21:22:25 <int-e> Which is an unfortunate O(n) operation for something that should really be constant time.
21:22:35 <int-e> javascript arrays
21:22:39 <int-e> no clue about those
21:22:53 <b_jonas> but maybe it slices long belts to multiple shorter belts internally because of this?
21:22:54 <int-e> I'd assume O(n). Maybe I'm wrong.
21:24:22 <int-e> Anyway, I've come to not treat the constant production as cheap for that 4th version.
21:25:22 <b_jonas> makes sense
21:26:41 <int-e> I'll dig deeper into the belt path logic... I've seen hints of an optimization for densely packed items on a belt.
21:26:53 <b_jonas> hmm, do you plan to alternatingly delete the whole freeplay factory and build the upgrade shape factory, and delete the upgrade shape factory and build the freeplay factory, switching every few hundred levels, to save cpu time on constant production? :-P
21:26:57 <int-e> Which could make quite the difference.
21:27:33 <int-e> b_jonas: No. Also, idle buildings take computing resources too.
21:28:23 <int-e> Oh you said "delete"
21:28:23 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's why you'd have to delete them rather than just press some buttons to close the belts
21:28:31 <int-e> Sorry, it's late
21:28:55 <int-e> I don't care as long as the tick time stays below 16ms.
21:29:19 <b_jonas> doesn't shapez.io let you raise the fps over 60?
21:29:19 <int-e> That's what killed my very first design with 8 factories... tick time was about 33ms for those :/
21:29:27 <int-e> But I've mentioned that before.
21:29:31 <b_jonas> "killed"
21:29:42 <int-e> Well, I deleted half of the factories to make it faster
21:30:38 <int-e> So yeah, it wasn't quite dead. But the result looked silly because the nice 4-way symmetry I wanted was lost and left a lot of empty space
21:31:30 <esolangs> [[PDAsephone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102995&oldid=101504 * BoundedBeans * (+734) Added Turing-completeness proof
21:32:22 <esolangs> [[PDAsephone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102996&oldid=102995 * BoundedBeans * (+0) Fixed category
21:32:38 <int-e> version 2 *actually* died because I lost it in a crash. version 3 was the rebuild of version 2 (with very minor changes) it ended up with a tick time of 15ms or so. version 4 has a tick time of under 10ms, but it's not producing the constant shapes which probably add another 3-4ms? I don't really know. I could check how much faster ticks become in v3 if I delete those parts
21:33:19 <int-e> My story so far. Maybe I should write memoirs about this :P
21:33:56 <esolangs> [[PDAsephone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102997&oldid=102996 * BoundedBeans * (+2) Fixed brainfuck wording
21:34:35 <b_jonas> I see
21:34:46 <b_jonas> you should definitely make periodic saves of it so you don't lost it in a crash again
21:35:16 <esolangs> [[PDAsephone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102998&oldid=102997 * BoundedBeans * (+1) added necessary quote to > in proof
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21:41:29 <int-e> b_jonas: Yeah I've been doing that, with a couple of separate backups too.
21:41:44 <int-e> I think the basic idea of disabling autosaves is good though
21:42:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Joaozin003 * New user account
21:43:33 <int-e> (One thing you can do with autosaves disabled is load a save file, completely mess it up, and then kill the shapez process so that it won't save. Oh and don't go to the settings menu either.)
21:43:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=102999&oldid=102942 * Joaozin003 * (+181)
21:44:13 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103000 * Joaozin003 * (+23) Created page with "woohoo user pages exist"
21:44:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Joaozin003]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103001 * Joaozin003 * (+0) Created blank page
21:47:37 <b_jonas> ok, so long term prediction. the third season of Hamster and Gretel will reveal that Bailey knew Gretel's secret identity from the start, but pretends that she doesn't, perhaps because she's genre savvy and thinks that knowing the secret identity would inevitably get her entangled in some villain plots and she wants to avoid that.
21:48:11 <b_jonas> (she might also like to tease Gretel)
21:51:18 <esolangs> [[Taglate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103002&oldid=102801 * BoundedBeans * (+18) Corrected badly worded t step
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22:02:11 <int-e> Looks like 1.5 or 2ms per tick for constant production (2x rocket, 4x flower, 2x logo; I didn't produce blueprints in the end I had millions and if actually required, the factory could produce them for me)
22:03:08 <int-e> For reference... I spent less than 600k blueprints on the V4 design.
22:04:21 <b_jonas> sure, you don't need to produce much blueprint shapes, and you can just produce them with your freeplay factory when you need more
22:04:25 <b_jonas> well no
22:04:30 <b_jonas> not with your freeplay factory
22:04:38 <b_jonas> but you can build a factory for it easily if you need more
22:05:21 <b_jonas> and you can reuse the white circle makers from the logo and rocket factories
22:05:55 <int-e> I have not toyed with the tick rate settings in shapez.io
22:06:15 <b_jonas> just make sure you build it *before* you get so close to running out of glue that you are limited in how much you can paste during building the glue factory
22:06:23 <int-e> b_jonas: my freeplay factory can make blueprint shapes
22:06:32 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but not with high throughput, right?
22:06:45 <int-e> sure, it'll only saturate 4 belts
22:06:51 <b_jonas> oh, 4 belt is enough
22:07:09 <b_jonas> I thought you had even fewer color mixing production than that
22:07:14 <int-e> since there are four factories.
22:07:32 <int-e> The color production thing is per slice... so that thing exists 16 times.
22:07:49 <b_jonas> ah ok
22:08:34 <b_jonas> that makes much more sense
22:08:51 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-v4-footprint.png ... you can see the color mixing part on top, recognizable by the green storage boxes
22:09:33 <int-e> below that are color selection, shape selection (shifted a bit to the left), then painting, then 4 levels of stacking.
22:09:47 <int-e> and after that there's the hub
22:11:31 <int-e> Anyway, I recommend the save file (the link, once more: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/V4-final.bin ) to actually see those parts in action.
22:11:40 <b_jonas> yeah, I'll have to look at that
22:11:51 <b_jonas> wait, you name a file "final"? isn't that one of the big naming sins?
22:12:01 <int-e> probably
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22:12:06 <int-e> I've already updated it once :P
22:12:51 <int-e> it should load zoomed in on a button which needs to be pushed to set things in motion
22:13:44 <int-e> Heh, which is actually not in the screenshot, because I added it later.
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22:15:33 <b_jonas> I'm usually bad at following good practice in naming, I name stuff "old" and use single-letter names and all that, but "final" is too much even for me, I never use it in that sense
22:16:16 <int-e> you may be overestimating the power of names
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22:17:16 <b_jonas> why are you sending two belts of stars into the hub? is that just to test the mechanism?
22:17:23 <int-e> yes
22:17:27 <int-e> pseudo-production
22:17:40 <int-e> also checking that the routing from outside actually works
22:17:59 <int-e> because it's not as direct as you might expect
22:18:24 <b_jonas> this definitely looks much more compact than my four-belt freeplay factory
22:22:02 <int-e> Yeah... design criteria were basically: minimize slice factory *width* (it's 24), since there'll be 4 side by side; within that constraint, try to reduce length while having all the required functionality to actually do the required work. And once I had the factory I measured it carefully and placed it as closely as possible to the hub.
22:22:32 <b_jonas> I see you have the four levels of stackers completely separated from each other, rather than partly combined to a compact array, despite that there's no drain to trash between them
22:23:04 <int-e> well, yes, because there is no trash
22:23:28 <b_jonas> couldn't you combine the last two or middle two levels to make the length shorter?
22:23:36 <b_jonas> since you have more width to work there
22:24:35 <b_jonas> you should probably show this to the other shapez.io folks, they like optimized factories
22:25:05 <b_jonas> even ones that aren't the single most optimized (that's likely z-man's factory)
22:25:19 <int-e> I'm not sure how to combine the stages at all.
22:25:54 <int-e> I mean, doing this https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-balanced-stacker.html with more than two inputs seems tricky.
22:26:08 <b_jonas> so will this keep working perfectly if you take upgrades to slightly different speeds? not, like, crazy different where painters are half as fast as belts or anything, just miclick on an upgrade or so
22:26:48 <b_jonas> ah, you say you couldn't preserve the perfect combing? ok
22:26:50 <int-e> Hmm. Upgrade the belts last and it should keep working
22:28:15 <b_jonas> ok. in my game I usually upgrade the belts first, then painting, then stacking, then extractors.
22:28:22 <int-e> b_jonas: I could, however, move the second and third merging stages inward and probably get things another 4 or 5 squares closer to the hub.
22:29:10 <b_jonas> int-e: that would make the belts longer so it wouldn't help, right?
22:29:25 <int-e> There is that too, yeah
22:30:12 <int-e> I could avoid the left/right wiggles in the last three merging stages.
22:31:23 <int-e> But the critical paths are those that pass to the opposite side, and those already don't go back and forth more than necessary.
22:31:31 <int-e> So... I think there's *very* little to gain.
22:32:25 <int-e> b_jonas: I /could/, with some effort, use knight jumps for some of the latency-reduction storage units.
22:32:49 <int-e> that would have the same benefit as moving things closer to the hub.
22:33:09 <int-e> But I'd probably have to relocate the control logic and I kind of like having that next to the hub.
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22:35:37 <b_jonas> I mean I just wanted to understand why you set it up this way, and you answered that
22:36:47 <int-e> Oh but I realized some angles that I hadn't considered before.
22:38:02 <int-e> b_jonas: Note that there's actually enough upgrade shapes in that save to reach level 1000. So you /can/ experiment with higher speedups. I haven't, I have only really tested this at 8x and 10x speeds.
22:40:06 <b_jonas> yeah, you saved with a gigaunit upgrade shapes
22:40:16 <b_jonas> no, ten gigaunits
22:40:35 <int-e> I actually added up all the upgrade costs.
22:40:40 <int-e> Well, my code did.
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22:51:26 <int-e> b_jonas: One funny detail is that the selection stage also has binary trees for its feeds. This is actually important, because immediately after switching, there are often empty belts beyond the feed, so if you'd do the obvious sequential thing, in the worst case, the rightmost belt (since I feed from the left) would only receive items at a 1/8 rate.
22:52:07 <int-e> And that would result in a significant ramp-up time.
22:52:54 <int-e> (because to reach the required 1/4 rate, the other 3 belts would have to be filled to the rim)
22:59:52 <int-e> Well, the first two.
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23:21:10 <esolangs> [[XERO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103003 * BoundedBeans * (+3219) Created page with "XERO (the name being the amount of use you'll get out of this language before giving up) is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]] which aims to be as annoying as possible, achie..."
23:22:03 <esolangs> [[XERO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103004&oldid=103003 * BoundedBeans * (+61) Remembered to add tritwise command character
23:22:49 <esolangs> [[XERO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103005&oldid=103004 * BoundedBeans * (+0) Fixed category
23:25:44 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103006&oldid=102966 * BoundedBeans * (+11) added XERO
23:25:59 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103007&oldid=102857 * BoundedBeans * (+10)
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11:10:54 <esolangs> [[Colang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103008 * Rdococ * (+4067) Created page with "'''Colang''' is a minimalistic, purely object-oriented, impurely functional programming language by [[User:Rdococ]]. == Introduction == Every value is an object. An object c..."
11:11:29 <esolangs> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103009&oldid=96075 * Rdococ * (+68) Add Colang
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12:22:17 <fizzie> The brief period of esolangs.org popularity in Google Search is over. :/ https://zem.fi/tmp/esoclick2.png
12:22:52 <fizzie> Well, "popularity". Maybe 50 clicks a day doesn't quite count yet.
12:23:12 <int-e> `? password
12:23:15 <HackEso> The password of the month is ridled woht tpyo.s
12:23:29 <int-e> still old
12:24:36 <fizzie> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%203-m&q=%2Fm%2F0d_v0 <- South Africa is the esolang capital of the world, according to Google Trends
12:27:09 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is knock-knock-knocking on heaven's door.
12:27:13 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is knock-knock-knocking on heaven's door.
12:27:50 <int-e> maybe the next one will be a Rick-roll :P
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12:44:31 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103010 * Joaozin003 * (+1151) Created page with "Addbig is a [[OISC]] created by [[User:Joaozin003]] which the '''only''' instruction is "Add A and B, store the result in A and branch to C if the result is bigger than zero."..."
12:44:47 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103011&oldid=103010 * Joaozin003 * (+3)
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12:48:03 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103012&oldid=103011 * Joaozin003 * (-2)
12:48:10 <wib_jonas> do we have a command somewhere in bin that learns the password iff it hasn't been changed this month yet?
12:48:37 <wib_jonas> so as to avoid a race condition where two users conclude that the password is old and both try to change it
12:48:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103013&oldid=103006 * Joaozin003 * (+13) /* A */
12:50:43 <int-e> wib_jonas: no. anarchy rules!
12:51:48 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log --removed -T '{date(date,"%Y-%m")}' -l 1 "$HACKENV/wisdom/password"
12:51:51 <HackEso> 2022-09
12:52:00 <wib_jonas> ``` date +"%Y-%m"
12:52:02 <HackEso> 2022-09
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13:02:11 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log --removed -T '1\n' -d "$(date '+>%Y-%m-01')" "$HACKENV/wisdom/password" | grep -q '' # this command exits successfully iff the password has been changed this month and so shouldn't be changed further
13:02:13 <HackEso> No output.
13:04:24 <wib_jonas> it probably uses UTC, but I'm not certain, and in any case I don't really know what timezone or time of the day the password rollover is anyway
13:04:47 <wib_jonas> you can just adjust the cutoff time by changing that date command anyway
13:05:27 <int-e> "we"'ve agreed on UTC but I don't know how big that set really is :P
13:06:22 <wib_jonas> int-e: UTC midnight? if so then this command probably works as long as hg log and date believes that the timezone is UTC
13:06:34 <wib_jonas> ``` date +'%Z %z'
13:06:35 <HackEso> UTC +0000
13:07:12 <wib_jonas> but I might just try to make it explicitly UTC in the command
13:09:03 <fizzie> `env
13:09:05 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_INSTANCE=HackEso-libera \ IRC_NETWORK=Libera.Chat \ IRC_NICK=fizzie \ IRC_IDENT=irc \ IRC_HOST=selene.zem.fi \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
13:09:30 <fizzie> Yeah, we had LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 for historical reasons but not the corresponding timezone.
13:09:57 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log --removed -T '1\n' -d "$(date -u '+>%Y-%m-01 00:00 UTC')" "$HACKENV/wisdom/password" | grep -q '' # exits successfully iff password has been changed this month
13:10:00 <HackEso> No output.
13:10:52 <wib_jonas> fizzie: right, but I think when $ENV{TZ} is not set, there's some default that libc falls off to, plus programs might use date operations from somewhere other than libc, pretty likely in the case of hg since it has a date parser
13:11:09 <wib_jonas> but that command above is explicitly UTC so it should work either way
13:12:26 <wib_jonas> I don't know if that default comes from /etc/timezone, or the kernel's (obsolete) idea of the current timezone offset, or somewhere else, and don't want to look up since, again, programs can use a different method
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13:14:50 <wib_jonas> ``` hg log -l 5 -T '{date("now","%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %Z %z")}\n' # what's the current time and timezone, hg
13:14:52 <HackEso> 2022-09-07 13:14:51 +0000 \ 2022-09-07 13:14:51 +0000 \ 2022-09-07 13:14:51 +0000 \ 2022-09-07 13:14:51 +0000 \ 2022-09-07 13:14:51 +0000
13:15:06 <wib_jonas> no timezone apparently, whereas date believes it's UTC
13:15:18 <int-e> ``` ls -la /etc/localtime
13:15:20 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/etc/localtime': No such file or directory
13:15:41 <int-e> (that's where my `date` gets its timezone from)
13:16:08 <int-e> ``` strace --help
13:16:10 <HackEso> strace: invalid option -- '-' \ Try 'strace -h' for more information.
13:16:29 <int-e> ``` strace -eopenat time 2>&1 | paste
13:16:31 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.19152
13:16:33 <int-e> err
13:16:39 <int-e> ``` strace -eopenat date 2>&1 | paste
13:16:40 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.32677
13:16:58 <int-e> I guess the fallback is just UTC then?
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13:18:30 <fizzie> `ls /etc
13:18:32 <HackEso> alternatives
13:18:34 <fizzie> Not much in there.
13:24:55 <wib_jonas> dunno. for all I know the fallback might be US east coast for ancient unix compatibility reasons, or set by a boot option whose default is stored in the first sector of the kernel next to the default boot device, or something
13:26:10 <wib_jonas> https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/TZ-Variable.html says "You should not normally need to set TZ. If the system is configured properly, the default time zone will be correct." which sounds like a very obsolete view of how computers work
13:27:29 <wib_jonas> but it also says "the system administrator [...] sets /etc/localtime to point to the data file [among the set of timezone info files] for the local time zone."
13:27:43 <wib_jonas> so you might be right about /etc/localtime at least for the case of libc and /bin/date
13:28:43 <wib_jonas> https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Running-make-install.html is apparently the authoritive doc about this
13:32:47 <wib_jonas> the docs for hg says that it assumes the local timezone if the timespec doesn't mention a timezone
13:33:10 <wib_jonas> but I don't know how it gets that local timezone and don't want to look it up
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14:13:11 <esolangs> [[Alphalang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103014&oldid=100886 * Joaozin003 * (-1) typo correction hahaha
14:17:46 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; target=/hackenv/wisdom/password; hg log --remove -T "{rev}\n" -l 16 "$target" | (while read rev; do hg cat -r "$rev" "$target"; done); echo "done." # so this works,
14:18:05 <HackEso> The password of the month is knock-knock-knocking on heaven's door. \ The password of the month is ridled woht tpyo.s \ The password of the month is redundant but not distributed. \ The password of the month is lawful neutral. \ The password of the month is not a password, but a special phrase-guessing operation. \ The password of the month is marching on. \ The password of the month is decided with a non-terminating computation. \ The password of the mont
14:18:21 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; target=/hackenv/wisdom/password; hg log --remove -T "{rev}\n" "$target" | (while read rev; do hg cat -r "$rev" "$target"; done); echo "done." # but this prints nothing. why? even if it times out, it has newlines in the output so rnoodl should flush it, right?
14:18:57 <HackEso> No output.
14:19:50 <wib_jonas> `run set -e; target=/hackenv/wisdom/password; hg log --remove -T "{rev}\n" "$target" | (while read rev; do hg cat -r "$rev" "$target"; done); echo "did not time out."
14:20:20 <HackEso> The password of the month is knock-knock-knocking on heaven's door. \ The password of the month is ridled woht tpyo.s \ The password of the month is redundant but not distributed. \ The password of the month is lawful neutral. \ The password of the month is not a password, but a special phrase-guessing operation. \ The password of the month is marching on. \ The password of the month is decided with a non-terminating computation. \ The password of the mont
14:20:33 <wib_jonas> is this a bug in rnoodl?
14:22:55 <wib_jonas> ``` set -e; target=/hackenv/wisdom/password; hg log --remove -T "{rev}\n" "$target" | (while read rev; do hg cat -r "$rev" "$target" >&2; done); echo "did not time out."
14:23:25 <HackEso> The password of the month is knock-knock-knocking on heaven's door. \ The password of the month is ridled woht tpyo.s \ The password of the month is redundant but not distributed. \ The password of the month is lawful neutral. \ The password of the month is not a password, but a special phrase-guessing operation. \ The password of the month is marching on. \ The password of the month is decided with a non-terminating computation. \ The password of the mont
14:23:30 <wib_jonas> this does flush, the >&2 bypasses the rnooodl pipe. so this is definitely a bug in rnooodl. I should have reimplemented that stupid script five years ago.
14:35:36 <fizzie> Isn't there also the difference that the stderr stdio stream is always unbuffered, while the stdout is block-buffered when not a terminal?
14:37:37 <fizzie> (Though I feel like it might be time to give up on rnooodl anyway.)
14:47:43 <wib_jonas> fizzie: irrelevant, hg isn't a built-in command, so the hg cat process just has to flush when it exits
14:47:47 <wib_jonas> ``` type hg
14:47:48 <HackEso> hg is /usr/bin/hg
14:50:52 <wib_jonas> and I would be happy if you got rid of rnooodl, but feel like I specifically don't have the authority to do that, so the best I could do is reimplement it, possibly in a subtly flawed way where it doesn't insert oooos when I'm running the command
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15:23:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:ALWCIDFEC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103015 * Huh * (+244) Created page with "== Computational class == How is this Turing Complete? How would it compute something like the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence Look-and-say sequence]? ~~~~"
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15:42:27 <wib_jonas> `run hg cat -r 12318 /hackenv/wisdom/password # I was wondering what the right syntax for the command should be, in particular if it should add a "The password of the month is " prefix and a "." suffix.
15:42:34 <HackEso> The password of the month was fought for, and stomped on, but it remains unreconciled with
15:43:00 <wib_jonas> but that answers that, no prefix, you'll have to type the full wisdom body.
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17:56:25 <esolangs> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103016&oldid=102089 * Joaozin003 * (+53) /* List of OISCs */
17:57:06 <esolangs> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103017&oldid=103016 * Joaozin003 * (+29) /* List of OISCs */
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19:02:55 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103018&oldid=103012 * Joaozin003 * (+224) /* Examples */
19:03:33 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103019&oldid=103018 * Joaozin003 * (+5) /* Examples */
19:11:30 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103020&oldid=103019 * Joaozin003 * (+8) /* Negation */
19:13:37 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103021&oldid=103020 * Joaozin003 * (+84)
19:13:53 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103022&oldid=103021 * Joaozin003 * (+14)
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22:17:45 <b_jonas> oh! after multiple years of hiatus, there are three new xkcd whatif articles right on the homepage https://what-if.xkcd.com/archive/ (not in the books) in 2022
22:18:18 <b_jonas> one from just a day or two ago
22:18:27 <b_jonas> `xkcdwhatiflist
22:18:29 <HackEso> xkcdwhatiflist: oerjan b_jonas Taneb
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22:22:31 <fizzie> Those showed up in my feed reader in a timely manner, but I wasn't aware we had a list for it.
22:22:55 <fizzie> Kind of wondering if it's mostly marketing for the second book.
22:24:56 <b_jonas> likely, since the current strip is also a marketing for it
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2022-09-08
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00:25:03 <esolangs> [[INTERCAL but way worse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103023 * Yes * (+453) Created page with "INTERCAL but way worse is made by [[User:Yes]] and is exactly what it sounds like. == New stuff == * You now need to say PLEASE 10 times, equally spaced, every 10 seconds of..."
00:25:39 <esolangs> [[User:Yes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103024&oldid=102914 * Yes * (+32)
03:27:29 <esolangs> [[Three variable modification language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103025&oldid=102655 * Lemonz * (+140) /* The syntax */
03:27:39 <esolangs> [[Three variable modification language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103026&oldid=103025 * Lemonz * (+0) /* The syntax */
03:30:06 <esolangs> [[Three variable modification language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103027&oldid=103026 * Lemonz * (+446) /* The three variables */
03:35:00 <esolangs> [[User:Lemonz/CodeDotGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103028&oldid=95645 * Lemonz * (+8) /* Foo Fizz Buzz Bar */
03:35:08 <esolangs> [[User:Lemonz/CodeDotGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103029&oldid=103028 * Lemonz * (+12) /* Fizz Buzz */
03:35:25 <esolangs> [[User:Lemonz/CodeDotGolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103030&oldid=103029 * Lemonz * (+8) /* Prime Numbers */
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11:29:11 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103031&oldid=103022 * Joaozin003 * (+646) /* Programming in Addbig */
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11:29:42 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103032&oldid=103031 * Joaozin003 * (+15)
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13:11:14 <wib_jonas> `? sedentary
13:11:16 <wib_jonas> `? sedenary
13:11:17 <HackEso> sedentary? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:11:18 <HackEso> sedenary? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:11:20 <wib_jonas> `? sexagecimal
13:11:21 <HackEso> sexagecimal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:11:22 <wib_jonas> `? sexadecimal
13:11:24 <HackEso> sexadecimal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:11:25 <wib_jonas> `? hexadecimal
13:11:27 <HackEso> hexadecimal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:13:05 <int-e> @wn sendentary
13:13:06 <lambdabot> No match for "sendentary".
13:13:23 <int-e> @wn sedentary
13:13:24 <lambdabot> *** "sedentary" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:13:24 <lambdabot> sedentary
13:13:24 <lambdabot> adj 1: requiring sitting or little activity; "forced by illness
13:13:24 <lambdabot> to lead a sedentary life"
13:13:24 <int-e> oops
13:13:26 <wib_jonas> `? sexagesimal
13:13:28 <HackEso> sexagesimal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:15:17 <wib_jonas> apparently "sexagesimal" means base sixty, not base sixteen
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13:17:07 <fizzie> `` wn sexagesimal -over | tail -n 1 # also in there
13:17:09 <HackEso> 1. sexagesimal -- (of or relating to or reckoning in sixtieths; "the sexagesimal divisions of hours and degrees")
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13:18:23 <fizzie> Sounds like base64 should really be called "tetrasexagesimal encoding" because it's so much more streamlined as a term.
13:20:18 <fizzie> And 7- and 8-bit binary data is really just centeoctovigesimally and duocentehexaquinquagesimally encoded, when you get right down to it. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numeral_systems#Standard_positional_numeral_systems anyway.
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13:23:05 <wib_jonas> er ok
13:24:13 <wib_jonas> do we also have fancy names for, what, four different representations of GF(2**8) in use that we talked about the last time?
13:24:31 <wib_jonas> three positional ones with different bases, and a logarithmic one
13:25:19 <wib_jonas> one where multiplication is the Nim-multiplication of the representation
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13:30:03 <wib_jonas> we'll have to figure out how to say "GF(2**8)" in fancy, and how to say "root of x**8 + x**4 + x**3 + x**2 + 1" in fancy
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13:54:37 <wib_jonas> see https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-09.html#lEH for the GF(2**8) discussion
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14:14:19 <int-e> Ah. x^8 + x^4 + x^3 + x + 1 is irreducible but not primitive, and that's probably why it's less popular than x^8 + x^4 + x^3 + x^2 + 1.
14:15:41 <int-e> I don't remember that discussion at all (didn't participate in it either... even though I was around)
14:22:47 <wib_jonas> `? senidenary
14:22:48 <HackEso> senidenary? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:22:51 <wib_jonas> `? sedecimal
14:22:52 <HackEso> sedecimal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:23:04 <int-e> `? confusion
14:23:05 <HackEso> confusion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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14:50:27 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103033&oldid=103032 * Joaozin003 * (+1) /* Stack Pop */
14:53:20 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103034&oldid=103033 * Joaozin003 * (+101) /* Examples */
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16:09:30 <esolangs> [[Island]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103035 * Hakerh400 * (+5448) +[[Island]]
16:09:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103036&oldid=103013 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[Island]]
16:10:17 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103037&oldid=97887 * Hakerh400 * (+13) +[[Island]]
16:13:09 <esolangs> [[Island]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103038&oldid=103035 * Hakerh400 * (+2)
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16:14:43 <esolangs> [[Island]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103039&oldid=103038 * Hakerh400 * (-33)
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16:25:01 <esolangs> [[Island]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103040&oldid=103039 * Hakerh400 * (-10)
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16:25:59 <esolangs> [[Island]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103041&oldid=103040 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
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17:35:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andriy * New user account
17:37:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103042&oldid=102999 * Andriy * (+138) /* Introductions */
17:38:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103043&oldid=103042 * Andriy * (+82)
17:41:40 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103044 * Andriy * (+348) Created a page. Plan to expand it
17:41:54 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103045&oldid=103044 * Andriy * (-2)
17:42:46 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103046&oldid=103045 * Andriy * (+30)
17:45:59 <esolangs> [[User:Andriy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103047 * Andriy * (+78) Created page with "Hi, my name is Andriy. I created [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]]."
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19:01:22 <b_jonas> what the heck
19:02:21 <b_jonas> apparently Queen Elizabeth II of the UK etc passed away today
19:03:21 <int-e> yeah that happened
19:03:34 <int-e> eg https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-61585886
19:03:46 <int-e> long live the king
19:04:03 <b_jonas> sad
19:05:51 <int-e> at this age? not very sad, tbh
19:19:09 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103048 * LEOMOK * (+1763) Created page with "It Is Not What It Is is a joke language created by an unknown person. It takes inspiration from a lot of ideas and joke languages such as [[Turi]] and [[Bf19]], as is his firs..."
19:47:02 <fizzie> It's sad that now she doesn't get to beat Louis XIV in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest-reigning_monarchs#Monarchs_of_sovereign_states_with_verifiable_reigns_by_exact_date
19:54:23 <b_jonas> is there a *list that we have to ring, or a wiki page that we ought to edit, because of some stupid language like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=9270 or https://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 ?
19:56:29 <b_jonas> `? people who taneb is not
19:56:31 <HackEso> Taneb is not elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first, or anyone older than Queen Elizabeth the Second. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
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20:09:57 <b_jonas> fungot, are their such things as operand air conditioning, which teach air to be more comfortable by rewarding it when it's milder and punishing it when it's too hot, using for example electric shock, loud noises, foul smells, or mosquitos?
20:09:57 <fungot> b_jonas: most " christians" put more emphasis on education...) return 2?
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20:33:07 <fizzie> I forgot about that.
20:33:48 <fizzie> Every time I upgrade the software on the router, fungot('s instance of socat) goes into this mode where the TCP connection has died, but it doesn't realize because it never tries to send anything unprompted.
20:33:49 <fungot> fizzie: what i meant by press. after reading more about that before, because you have one
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20:55:25 <esolangs> [[Welcome to Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103049&oldid=102580 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+210) Categories
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21:15:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103050&oldid=103036 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+47) /* T */ add
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22:11:04 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103051&oldid=103007 * BoundedBeans * (-217)
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23:40:16 <esolangs> [[Irregular Expression]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103052&oldid=96543 * Lemonz * (+34) /* Comparisons And arithmetic */
2022-09-09
00:24:25 <esolangs> [[User:Lemonz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103053&oldid=102862 * Lemonz * (-87) /* de */
00:26:53 <esolangs> [[User:Lemonz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103054&oldid=103053 * Lemonz * (+18)
00:30:23 <esolangs> [[Three variable modification language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103055&oldid=103027 * Lemonz * (+42)
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06:01:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Three variable modification language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103056 * PkmnQ * (+268) /* Hello World program */ new section
06:03:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Three variable modification language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103057&oldid=103056 * PkmnQ * (+78)
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09:20:56 <wib_jonas> we still don't have access to the chat logs from HackEso or other ways to search chat without using a local copy of the logs (which I have on my home computer but not on my work computer yet)
09:21:11 <wib_jonas> right?
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09:27:45 <fizzie> Right.
09:34:02 <wib_jonas> I'll probably just use local search at home
09:34:42 <wib_jonas> I wish my home internet connection wasn't so unstable, then I would only claim lazyness as an excuse for why I'm not making and publishing my own chat logs
09:35:25 <wib_jonas> I mean logging it independently from your bot
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10:50:02 <wib_jonas> `run ls -dlF /dev/stdout
10:50:09 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 15 May 1 12:32 /dev/stdout -> /proc/self/fd/1|
10:50:15 <wib_jonas> sorry, I should do that in private message
10:52:29 <wib_jonas> I was wondering if there was an easy way to tell if your stdout in a HackEso goes directly to IRC or into a pipe, for printing color codes by default in the former case but no color codes in the latter case by default, like many unix programs do with isatty
10:52:41 <wib_jonas> but no, because the normal output to IRC is still a pipe
10:53:28 <wib_jonas> the other part about the color is probably possible by making an IRC style terminfo terminal description
10:53:38 <fizzie> I seem to recall that's beacuse there's an extra cat, specifically to make programs that do treat terminals differently consider IRC a non-terminal. Because it was thought that'd be more likely the useful behavior.
10:53:59 <wib_jonas> fizzie: it may be as a default, yes
10:54:20 <wib_jonas> even TERM=dumb goes only halfway
10:54:39 <wib_jonas> it thinks the output is still an interactive terminal, just a dumb one so don't output color codes or bold etc
10:55:36 <wib_jonas> but for commands specifically written for HackEso, I may want to try custom behavior
10:55:49 <wib_jonas> I'm asking partly for rnooodl
10:56:37 <int-e> hehehe... pipe:[221] ...is that number stable? ;-)
10:56:39 <wib_jonas> sure, you're not likely to invoke bin/\`\` or the other few such commands non-IRCvely, but still just in case
10:57:35 <wib_jonas> int-e: I don't think it's guaranteed to be stable in that you can rely on it, eg. a debian upgrade could silently change it; it may be stable enough that an attacker could hard-code it in malware
10:59:03 <fizzie> Actually, looking at the (umlbox) code, I think it's not so much that it's thinking of "more useful for IRC" (since it's not IRC-specific) but that it's set to match what the "external" stdout is, so that the sandboxing is kind of transparent in that regard.
10:59:13 <fizzie> The field -- https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/config.proto#L50 -- is set by the Python wrapper -- https://github.com/fis/umlbox/blob/master/umlbox#L194 -- as `not os.isatty(1)`.
10:59:51 <wib_jonas> also I'm wondering if I should write the rnooodl reimplementation in C or python
10:59:51 <fizzie> But of course in multibot, it's a pipe that the UML process gets as stdout, so the cat gets generated.
11:02:09 <wib_jonas> `run set -e; cd /hackenv/bin; grep -Rl ooo . # what commands use rnooodl in first place?
11:02:11 <HackEso> ​./bookofeso \ ./ \ ./? \ ./rnooodl \ ./` \ ./gs2c.py \ ./( \ ./tclkit \ ./wisdom \ ./danddreclist \ ./gs2.py \ ./``
11:05:54 <wib_jonas> I think I'll just make it not care about where it output goes
11:13:22 <int-e> fungot: how many integer alus do you have?
11:13:22 <fungot> int-e: considering the only time i was into scm i could let everyone else hear it :p.
11:14:14 <wib_jonas> though since rnooodl only multiplies exactly three os, at least it's idempotent
11:14:17 <int-e> fungot: why are you making source code management sound like a kink?
11:14:17 <fungot> int-e: so can you modify it to use
11:14:23 <wib_jonas> well no, not quite
11:14:31 <wib_jonas> because it can also output just three os
11:14:57 <wib_jonas> it's not idempotent, but also won't grow the output without limit if repeatedly applied
11:15:05 <wib_jonas> it will converge when run many times
11:16:39 <int-e> what's the term... converge in probability?
11:17:12 <wib_jonas> that too, yes
11:17:23 <wib_jonas> that's the stronger condition
11:18:22 <wib_jonas> but I only meant weak (pointwise) convergence
11:22:41 <wib_jonas> or something... I've no idea how topology works anymore
11:22:51 <wib_jonas> but in this case it probably converges in any sense you can think of
11:24:55 <int-e> > fix show
11:24:57 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
11:25:15 <esolangs> [[User:Joaozin003]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103058&oldid=103000 * Joaozin003 * (+75)
11:30:07 * sprout writes a unicode color code proposal
11:30:45 <int-e> oh noes
11:30:57 <wib_jonas> starting over. there's probably like ten different things you can mean by convergence here. I mean a weak one: for any fixed input, a-s the function from the number of iterations to the repeated iteration of rnoodl to that input converges to a finite string. or equivalently a-s for any input the function from the number of iterations to the
11:30:58 <wib_jonas> repeated iteration of rnoodl to that input converges to a finite string
11:46:01 <wib_jonas> but also the result of a repeated application is never more than 13/6th the length of its input
11:48:41 <wib_jonas> we talked about this before but I forgot. what did we figure was the best practice to tell when the HackEso command timeout gets close? do I just hard-code 30 seconds from the start of my process, or did we have something better?
11:49:39 <wib_jonas> there isn't an environment variable or file or something that tells when the timeout will come, right?
11:50:39 <wib_jonas> I only need it in the one hard case: when the input so far ends in "noood" or "Noood" and I have to decide whether to flush the final "d" or wait for more input
11:51:52 <int-e> `` uptime
11:51:53 <HackEso> ​ 11:51:53 up 4828 day, 20:21, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
11:52:02 <int-e> interesting
11:52:35 <wib_jonas> I can probably check when a suitable parent process started, but I also don't really want to hard-code the 30 seconds or whatever the timeout is set to
11:53:17 <wib_jonas> but the sandbox may be exposing the end time to us somewhere, either in a special channel or just in setrlimit
11:53:19 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, you can catch the timeout SIGTERM, and still have 5 seconds left for a graceful shutdown.
11:53:34 <wib_jonas> ooh, SIGTERM, let me test that
11:53:45 <fizzie> Although... it might be the soft timeout already kills the cat.
11:54:11 <fizzie> No, I think it's just sent to the child, not the cat.
11:54:33 <fizzie> The cat is expected to just behave and expire soon after the child does.
11:55:12 <wib_jonas> is the SIGTERM sent to the whole process group, or only to its top?
11:56:04 <fizzie> It's just sent to the initially executed process, not the group, it looks like.
11:56:37 <wib_jonas> hmm, that's a pity
11:56:55 <wib_jonas> that's usually a shell, which ignores it
11:58:20 <fizzie> I guess that could be changed. I don't even know if the executed command becomes its own process group, actually. It might just be in the same process group as init, which is a little weird.
11:59:22 <fizzie> `` ps -o pid,pgrp,args
11:59:23 <HackEso> ​ PID PGRP COMMAND \ 48 0 cat \ 49 0 /bin/bash /hackenv/bin/` ps -o pid,pgrp,args \ 50 0 /bin/bash /hackenv/bin/` ps -o pid,pgrp,args \ 51 0 /bin/bash /hackenv/bin/` ps -o pid,pgrp,args \ 52 0 ps -o pid,pgrp,args \ 53 0 perl -pe s/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge
11:59:42 <wib_jonas> I wonder if you could just expose the time somewhere, as an absolute time in some timer, and then the processes can set their own alarms if they wish
11:59:46 <fizzie> Hmm, a process group identifier of 0, that's probably pretty rare.
11:59:55 <wib_jonas> as in the time when you'll be shut down
12:00:00 <int-e> `` stat -c %x /proc
12:00:02 <HackEso> 2022-09-09 12:00:00.994161622 +0000
12:00:49 <fizzie> Well, technically the UML doesn't know the timeout, it comes as a signal to init from the outside. But I get the point, yes, a good-enough approximation could be exported into it somehow.
12:01:21 <fizzie> I probably shouldn't have used the word "signal", because it's not actually a signal.
12:02:05 <int-e> flags aren't really flags either
12:02:08 <wib_jonas> it's always an approximation in practice, since we're not running any real-time code with hard guarantees on timing
12:04:07 <fizzie> I don't know if timekeeping in the UML might be a bit wonky, though. Because I vaguely recall experiments with `sleep` behaving kinda erratically.
12:04:16 <fizzie> `sleep 5
12:04:37 <wib_jonas> I mean if I just cheat and assume 22 seconds from the start of the rnooodl process, who'd notice the difference? it's not like anyone who uses HackEso does extensive analysis on the behavior of our commands
12:04:46 <HackEso> No output.
12:04:53 <fizzie> Okay, that was definitely more than 5 seconds.
12:05:06 <fizzie> In fact, it was almost exactly 30, the timeout.
12:05:19 <wib_jonas> fizzie: that's not a good test unless you're watching when the command arrives and exits on the server, as opposed to through IRC
12:05:23 <wib_jonas> IRC often has delays
12:05:27 <fizzie> `` sleep 5 # just out of curiosity
12:05:57 <HackEso> No output.
12:06:56 <wib_jonas> also a write command that someone else runs can delay when HackEso starts to run your command
12:07:08 <fizzie> `` for (( i=0; i<5; i++ )); do date +%s; sleep 1; done
12:07:14 <HackEso> 1662725229 \ 1662725230 \ 1662725231 \ 1662725232 \ 1662725233
12:07:33 <fizzie> Curious.
12:08:13 <wib_jonas> but really, IRC delay. IRC just doesn't attempt to be very low latency.
12:08:19 <fizzie> `ping
12:08:20 <HackEso> pong
12:08:26 <wib_jonas> it prefers to have a high throughput over a low latency
12:08:32 <wib_jonas> since it has lots of users
12:08:58 <wib_jonas> also because if you want low latency or high throughput, connect directly and only send at most the metadata through irc
12:08:58 <fizzie> Looks low enough to me for differentiating between 5 and 30 seconds. Especially with some small (N=10) number of samples.
12:34:19 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103059&oldid=103034 * Joaozin003 * (+0) /* Cat Program Until <=0 */
12:39:53 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103060&oldid=103059 * Joaozin003 * (+166)
12:41:09 <wib_jonas> `python -cimport os,time; s=os.times()[4]; w=6.2; time.sleep(w); e=os.times()[4]; print("erratic delays? %5.2f% 6.2f;" % (w,e-s))
12:41:16 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103061&oldid=103060 * Joaozin003 * (+46) /* The full Addbig instruction */
12:41:37 <esolangs> [[Addbig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103062&oldid=103061 * Joaozin003 * (-2) /* The full Addbig instruction */
12:41:40 <HackEso> No output.
12:41:40 <wib_jonas> fizzie: you have a point. sometimes the sleep runs as fast as it should, sometimes it's much slower
12:41:46 <wib_jonas> like here it timed out
12:41:50 <wib_jonas> `python -cimport os,time; s=os.times()[4]; w=6.2; time.sleep(w); e=os.times()[4]; print("erratic delays? %5.2f% 6.2f;" % (w,e-s))
12:42:20 <HackEso> No output.
12:42:39 <wib_jonas> again
12:42:46 <wib_jonas> but sometimes it runs to completion
12:43:08 <wib_jonas> `python -cimport os,time; s=os.times()[4]; w=6.2; time.sleep(w); e=os.times()[4]; print("erratic delays (FDfECE4b)? %5.2f% 6.2f;" % (w,e-s))
12:43:37 <HackEso> erratic delays (FDfECE4b)? 6.20 27.85;
12:44:03 <wib_jonas> there it slept for 27.8 seconds, eww
12:44:13 <wib_jonas> `python -cimport os,time; s=os.times()[4]; w=6.2; time.sleep(w); e=os.times()[4]; print("erratic delays (UiW8f20w)? %5.2f% 6.2f;" % (w,e-s))
12:44:43 <wib_jonas> I swear I got one where it only slept as much as I requested. weird.
12:44:44 <HackEso> erratic delays (UiW8f20w)? 6.20 29.67;
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13:19:34 <esolangs> [[V^v]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103063&oldid=102683 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+105) Rectified the CCF printer program, which would steadily decrement the top stack element until it reaches negative values, thus violating the ASCII code range.
13:19:41 <fizzie> wib_jonas: I think we poked at it back when, and it's something like, when it's busy doing stuff, time passes at the expected rate, but when it's idle it doesn't.
13:19:43 <fizzie> `` (while true; do :; done) & time sleep 5; kill %1
13:19:49 <HackEso> real: 0m5.051s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.020s
13:19:53 <fizzie> Like, that takes consistently about five seconds.
13:20:01 <fizzie> `` time sleep 5
13:20:09 <fizzie> But that one doesn't.
13:20:30 <int-e> the kernel is busy waiting.
13:20:31 <HackEso> real: 0m29.561s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.090s
13:21:00 <fizzie> Yet it still knows 30 seconds did elapse in the output. Odd.
13:21:03 <int-e> would that be clearer with a comma?
13:21:22 <int-e> real time isn't delayed... does UML get it from the host?
13:21:53 <wib_jonas> it has to get everything from the host, one way or another
13:22:42 <int-e> some things you can recreate inside the sandbox without giving up the pretense of isolation
13:24:56 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103064&oldid=103046 * Andriy * (+292)
13:26:00 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103065&oldid=103064 * Andriy * (+102)
13:26:33 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103066&oldid=103065 * Andriy * (+19)
13:27:15 <esolangs> [[V^v]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103067&oldid=103063 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2982) Added an implementation in Common Lisp, together with a output generator program.
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13:28:56 <esolangs> [[V^v]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103068&oldid=103067 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+172) Added categories to the page.
13:29:38 <wib_jonas> unrelated, TAOCP volume 4B is "currently in press and scheduled for publication on 11 October 2022"
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13:30:05 <int-e> woah
13:30:31 <wib_jonas> let me check when the e-book version comes out, it may be earlier or later
13:30:42 <wib_jonas> nice, I can buy it now already
13:31:08 <wib_jonas> ah no I can't
13:31:47 <wib_jonas> I can order it but I won't get the e-book until a time that's estimated to be the same as the above
13:31:58 <wib_jonas> that is, pre-order
13:32:03 <wib_jonas> still, good. I'll set a reminder.
13:34:13 <wib_jonas> I'll absolutely buy it, even though this may be the volume of TAOCP that I will be the least interested in
13:34:23 <wib_jonas> the one that includes satisfiability
13:35:44 <int-e> I'm looking for a table of contents (by other means than searching for the pre-fascicles)
13:36:26 <wib_jonas> int-e: you can probably buy or borrow from a library the fascicles 4.5 and 4.6
13:37:05 <wib_jonas> https://www.informit.com/store/art-of-computer-programming-volume-4b-combinatorial-9780201038064 lists a table of contrents, but with very few chapters
13:37:13 <wib_jonas> but it's possible that this book will just have very few chapters
13:38:19 <wib_jonas> that would make the longest chapter 7.2.2.2 Satisfiability, weighing in at 185 or 184 pages
13:38:36 <wib_jonas> well, the longest sub-chapter
13:39:37 <wib_jonas> also apparently you'll be able to buy a "boxed set" of volumes 1 to 4B inclusive, but apparently not just the box without the volumes that you already have
13:41:10 <int-e> Yeah I just wanted a reminder of the chapter headlines. I actually have (some version of) the corresponding pre-fascicles.
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13:42:04 <int-e> Will I buy it? Not sure yet. It's fascinating stuff but also stuff I know quite a bit about.
13:42:53 <int-e> then again it may be worth it just for the execercises
13:47:36 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103069&oldid=103066 * Andriy * (+228)
13:48:17 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103070&oldid=103069 * Andriy * (+18)
13:49:03 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103071&oldid=103070 * Andriy * (-1) /* Example code */
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13:58:05 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103072&oldid=103071 * Andriy * (+469) /* Hello World */
14:00:58 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103073&oldid=103072 * Andriy * (+197) /* Architecture */
14:02:54 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103074&oldid=103073 * Andriy * (+64) /* Architecture */
14:05:21 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103075&oldid=103074 * Andriy * (+145) /* Architecture */
14:07:21 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103076&oldid=103075 * Andriy * (+212) /* Architecture */
14:09:41 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103077&oldid=103076 * Andriy * (+16) /* Architecture */
14:11:21 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103078&oldid=103077 * Andriy * (+13) /* Functions */
14:15:51 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103079&oldid=103078 * Andriy * (+305) /* Lines */
14:18:04 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103080&oldid=103079 * Andriy * (+197) /* Lines */
14:18:51 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103081&oldid=103080 * Andriy * (+1) /* List of commands */
14:19:30 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103082&oldid=103081 * Andriy * (+125) /* List of commands */
14:19:48 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103083&oldid=103082 * Andriy * (-2) /* List of commands */
14:20:00 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103084&oldid=103083 * Andriy * (-8) /* List of commands */
14:20:34 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103085&oldid=103084 * Andriy * (+79) /* Lines */
14:24:41 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103086&oldid=103085 * Andriy * (+183) /* Commands */
14:25:29 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103087&oldid=103086 * Andriy * (+406) /* Commands */
14:26:38 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103088&oldid=103087 * Andriy * (+81) /* Commands */
14:27:19 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103089&oldid=103088 * Andriy * (+1) /* Commands */
14:30:27 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103090&oldid=103089 * Andriy * (+24) /* Commands */
14:42:39 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103091&oldid=103090 * Andriy * (+77) /* Commands */
14:43:24 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103092&oldid=103091 * Andriy * (+205) /* Commands */
14:46:37 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103093&oldid=103092 * Andriy * (+205) /* Commands */
14:47:07 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103094&oldid=103093 * Andriy * (+20) /* Commands */
14:48:08 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103095&oldid=103094 * Andriy * (+348) /* Commands */
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14:53:31 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103096&oldid=103095 * Andriy * (+435) /* Commands */
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14:55:11 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103097&oldid=103096 * Andriy * (+464) /* Commands */
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15:07:21 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103099&oldid=103098 * Andriy * (+1262) /* Commands */
15:08:34 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103100&oldid=103099 * Andriy * (+693) /* Commands */
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16:06:19 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103101&oldid=103100 * Andriy * (+0)
16:07:43 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103102&oldid=103101 * Andriy * (+1602) /* Hello World */
16:08:49 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103103&oldid=103102 * Andriy * (+98) /* Fibonacci numbers */
16:09:31 <esolangs> [[Turing Complete DOM Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103104&oldid=103103 * Andriy * (+1) /* Fibonacci numbers */
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16:58:37 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103105&oldid=103048 * LEOMOK * (+2572)
17:01:30 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103106&oldid=103105 * LEOMOK * (-46)
17:01:56 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103107&oldid=103106 * LEOMOK * (+0)
17:03:11 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103108&oldid=103107 * LEOMOK * (+2)
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19:06:12 <esolangs> [[Double]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103109&oldid=101774 * Lim95 * (+811) Updated it for 1.6 nerds
19:09:18 <esolangs> [[Double]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103110&oldid=103109 * Lim95 * (+114)
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19:37:19 <esolangs> [[Island]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103112&oldid=103041 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+68) Categories
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21:33:40 <esolangs> [[SOAP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103113 * BoundedBeans * (+2572) Created page with "SOAP (the name standing for Set Oriented Arithmetic Programming) is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]]. Many esolangs use stacks, queues, tapes, or accumulators to store data..."
21:34:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103114&oldid=103050 * BoundedBeans * (+11)
21:34:12 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103115&oldid=103051 * BoundedBeans * (+10)
22:18:47 <esolangs> [[WindowGolf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103116 * BoundedBeans * (+1915) Created page with "WindowGolf is like [[Drive-In Window]] but insanely short. It was created by [[User:BoundedBeans]]. Programs follow this format: (entrees).(sides).(order) ==Entrees and sid..."
22:19:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103117&oldid=103114 * BoundedBeans * (+17)
22:19:25 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103118&oldid=103115 * BoundedBeans * (+16)
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23:05:12 <esolangs> [[Deadfish PDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103119&oldid=102820 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+136) /* See also */ Link to interpreter
2022-09-10
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03:58:08 <esolangs> [[Binary Turing Machine!?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103120 * Largejamie * (+2981) Created page with "'''Binary Turing Machine!?''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Largejamie]] in August 2022 whose programs create and then run input on a Turing mach..."
03:58:23 <esolangs> [[User:Largejamie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103121&oldid=81750 * Largejamie * (+30)
03:58:40 <esolangs> [[Binary Turing Machine!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103122&oldid=103120 * Largejamie * (-7)
03:58:58 <esolangs> [[Binary Turing Machine!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103123&oldid=103122 * Largejamie * (+7)
03:59:19 <esolangs> [[Binary Turing Machine!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103124&oldid=103123 * Largejamie * (+0)
04:00:24 <esolangs> [[Binary Turing Machine!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103125&oldid=103124 * Largejamie * (+0)
05:08:14 <esolangs> [[Binary Turing Machine!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103126&oldid=103125 * Largejamie * (+1137) /* Examples */
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09:26:40 <esolangs> [[Taxi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103127&oldid=46420 * YiChen LYC * (-7) Change to a new valid link
09:27:15 <esolangs> [[Taxi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103128&oldid=103127 * YiChen LYC * (+4)
09:27:37 <esolangs> [[Taxi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103129&oldid=103128 * YiChen LYC * (-8)
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09:28:57 <esolangs> [[Taxi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103130&oldid=103129 * YiChen LYC * (+0)
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11:59:55 <esolangs> [[User:WallGraffiti]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103131&oldid=93127 * WallGraffiti * (-56) update
12:00:16 <esolangs> [[User:WallGraffiti]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103132&oldid=103131 * WallGraffiti * (-14) correction
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13:51:15 <esolangs> [[Makina]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103133 * Ginger Industries * (+11171) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=makina}} {{infobox proglang |name=makina |author=[[User:Ginger Industries]] |year=[[:Category:2022|2022]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dime..."
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13:53:17 <esolangs> [[Makina]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103134&oldid=103133 * Ginger Industries * (+66)
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13:54:12 <esolangs> [[Makina]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103135&oldid=103134 * Ginger Industries * (+45)
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14:56:30 <esolangs> [[Jav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103136&oldid=102042 * BrickLikesCoding * (+166) uhhh {{Stub}}
14:57:24 <esolangs> [[Jav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103137&oldid=103136 * BrickLikesCoding * (+19)
14:58:42 <esolangs> [[Jav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103138&oldid=103137 * BrickLikesCoding * (-2)
15:00:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103139&oldid=103117 * BrickLikesCoding * (+10) Added Jav
15:00:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103140&oldid=103139 * BrickLikesCoding * (+10) {{Stub}}
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16:15:45 <esolangs> [[Double]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103141&oldid=103111 * Lim95 * (+13)
16:16:06 <esolangs> [[Double]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103142&oldid=103141 * Lim95 * (+1)
16:25:52 <esolangs> [[DIACRITIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103143&oldid=98396 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+111)
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17:10:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SwitchU4 * New user account
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17:16:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103144&oldid=103043 * SwitchU4 * (+126)
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17:42:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103145&oldid=103140 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) Undo revision 103140 by [[Special:Contributions/BrickLikesCoding|BrickLikesCoding]] ([[User talk:BrickLikesCoding|talk]])
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18:35:53 <esolangs> [[Double]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103146&oldid=103142 * Lim95 * (+54)
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18:51:51 <esolangs> [[Double]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103147&oldid=103146 * Lim95 * (-16)
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19:24:28 <esolangs> [[Double]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103148&oldid=103147 * Lim95 * (+117)
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20:25:18 <esolangs> [[The Subtyping Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103149&oldid=70375 * Ais523 * (-1) /* Semantics */ caps/punct
20:27:37 <esolangs> [[The Subtyping Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103150&oldid=103149 * Ais523 * (+2) /* Computational class */ add missing word
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22:15:43 <esolangs> [[ExtendedPig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103151&oldid=102745 * BoundedBeans * (-55) Fixed mistake in BCT interpreter
22:19:30 <esolangs> [[O o]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103152&oldid=101564 * BoundedBeans * (+1) Fixed subheading
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23:09:34 <esolangs> [[$3COND]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103153 * BoundedBeans * (+988) Created page with "$3COND is an esolang by [[User:BoundedBeans]] in which the only loop is based on real life time. ==Instructions== [(n)(code)(n)] - run the following code for n milliseconds..."
23:10:17 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103154&oldid=103145 * BoundedBeans * (+13)
23:10:45 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103155&oldid=103118 * BoundedBeans * (+11)
2022-09-11
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03:53:59 <esolangs> [[Python is Magic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103156&oldid=96872 * OllyTheFoldy * (-5044) added some better methods of getting constants
04:05:21 <esolangs> [[User:Xemt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103157&oldid=101364 * Xemt * (+447)
04:06:01 <esolangs> [[User:Xemt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103158&oldid=103157 * Xemt * (+1)
04:09:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Xemt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103159 * Xemt * (+29) Created page with "<h1> Xemts Talk Page </h1>"
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05:14:19 <esolangs> [[User:Xemt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103160&oldid=103158 * Xemt * (+166)
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08:11:47 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103161&oldid=103108 * Leomok2009 * (+0) Fixed errors
08:13:04 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103162&oldid=103161 * Leomok2009 * (+0)
08:14:47 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103163&oldid=103162 * Leomok2009 * (+0)
08:15:59 <esolangs> [[It Is Not What It Is]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103164&oldid=103163 * Leomok2009 * (-2)
08:37:17 <olsner> hm, I have a syntax idea (an old one that's been idly circulating my mind, thought I might implement it at last), but I don't really have a fun language to go with it... should I just throw it at the pile of brainfucks?
08:39:03 <olsner> (it's not a good idea anyway, just silly and a bit offensive)
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10:02:05 <b_jonas> olsner: don't throw it on the pile of brainfucks. instead do at least one of the following: (1) sit on it until you feel like creating a language, (2) tell it in chat, or (3) throw it on the other big pile https://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas
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10:04:52 <b_jonas> olsner: I've had an idea for the esoteric syntax thing of making a syntax that is an intrinsically ambiguous context-free language (i.e. can be parsed by a non-deterministic pushdown automaton but not by a deterministic one) in 2014, by taking the union of two syntaxes, one where you have to balance one kind of parenthesis and one where you have to match the other;
10:05:39 <b_jonas> but didn't know how to use it and certainly didn't want to make a brainfuck-alike or underload-alike, until 2017 or 2018 when I realized that this would be the perfect syntax for Consumer Society and its sibling language,
10:05:49 <olsner> hm, and push-down automata aren't determinizable like normal finite ones are?
10:06:17 <b_jonas> which is why in Consumer Society one kind of parenthesis has to be balanced, while in its sibling language another kind has to be balanced.
10:07:55 <b_jonas> olsner: that's correct. you have to use your one stack to count how many parenthesis you've seen, pushing when you see an open and popping when you see a closer parent, but you might not know in advance which kind of parenthesis you should pay attention to. you find out when you see that the kind of parenthesis that you've been tracking mismatches, but by then it's too late.
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10:10:45 <b_jonas> when I write my interpreter, it will just have to buffer all the input until either it can determine which language it is or the input ends. in typical non-obfuscated programs you'll just put a disambiguating thing near the start of the program so the interpreter can tell quick and doesn't have to buffer much, but for arbitrary programs the interpreter may have to buffer the whole thing
10:12:00 <olsner> anyway, I think I'll sit on that idea for a while longer
10:12:56 <b_jonas> luckily Consumer Society will probably be the more commonly used language in practice, and typical Consumer Society programs written in a natural style will usually have a short enough prefix that's invalid in the sister language (perhaps after a long comment block at the start)
10:13:52 <b_jonas> I think naturally written programs in the sister language would be much worse in this sense unless you deliberately insert a disambiguation near the start
10:14:03 <b_jonas> there are very simple disambiguations though
10:14:41 <olsner> of course if you want to be fancy, you'd write a program that is ambiguous to the end for both the interpreter and for human readers with misleading comments
10:14:43 <b_jonas> to be clear, the other kind of parenthesis, the one that doesn't have to be balanced, are an important part of the syntax of either language
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10:16:12 <b_jonas> olsner: I don't know if I could write such a thing. I don't know how I'd make it look ambiguous rather than just completely unreadable
10:16:34 <b_jonas> but it might be possible. there's a deliberately misleading IOCCC entry after all.\
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14:33:38 <esolangs> [[V^v]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103165&oldid=103068 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+11) Amended a few orthographic mistakes.
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19:40:57 <int-e> fungot: can you explain delta-swaps to me?
19:40:58 <fungot> int-e: that makes sence, i just assumed " liquor" would fnord work? i'm listening to a music piece by " crazy penis". it's striking because it's counterintuitive
19:41:31 <int-e> I'm dismayed that "sence" is frequent enough to not be "f****".
19:42:08 <int-e> `"
19:42:11 <HackEso> 1/1:1126) <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom <Bike> ass is an urban legend \ 1266) <quintopia> let's force all arabs to adopt more reasonable orthography <zzo38> quintopia: No that is not the correct solution <quintopia> zzo38: oh. okay. thanks.
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20:30:46 <imode> fungot: how much do you weigh?
20:30:46 <fungot> imode: are you all so enthusiastic about answering that???
20:30:55 <imode> fungot: yes, I am. how big are you.
20:30:56 <fungot> imode: 80 characters they are considered pointers.
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20:31:18 <imode> fungot: 640 bytes is enough for you, then?
20:31:19 <fungot> imode: rulers of nations back then were pretty horrible. granted, that's usually quite simple. the only advantage today. i went to a private school
20:31:35 <imode> fungot: are you secretly bill gates?
20:31:35 <fungot> imode: how far is montreal?). since this is a fnord :) just don't like the font of emacs i read of??? is it 2d?
20:31:44 <imode> fungot: enjoy your fnords.
20:35:26 <int-e> Haha. Have you ever added 'volatile' to C code to make code *faster*?
20:36:21 <imode> oddly enough, no.
20:37:52 <fizzie> At the university, the CS students used to have all these "excursions" to companies and such, and there was an unwritten tradition to, after the host had done whatever presentation they had about the company and asked for questions, to ask "how much does this building weigh?"
20:38:05 <fizzie> A well-enough known tradition that sometimes the host had an answer prepared.
20:39:34 <fizzie> And now that I went and looked for that on the web, on the first page of results is when I told this same story about a decade ago, which is a little bit sad.
20:39:58 <int-e> Sadly it's not reliable enough anyway. I'm cheating differently now.
20:40:40 <fizzie> https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2012-11-04.html#lYp
20:41:04 <int-e> Anyway, the thing is... I have code with /many/ 64 bit constands (from DES S-boxes, because somehow I thought implementing DES could be fun), and it's faster to fetch those from memory than to build constants inline... which is what both gcc and clang do when left to their own devices.
20:41:12 <int-e> constants even
20:41:43 <int-e> So now I have a constant table as a global variable. And a dummy function that modifies it. What a hack.
20:43:08 <int-e> > 2.385 / 2.930
20:43:10 <lambdabot> 0.8139931740614333
20:43:25 <int-e> > 2.930 / 2.385 -- err, this way
20:43:27 <lambdabot> 1.228511530398323
20:43:35 <int-e> 23% speedup. Not negligible.
20:50:02 <int-e> But meh, surely that'a s thing the compiler could do for me...
20:53:05 <int-e> This, btw, also makes the difference between the code being faster than the 32 bit version, and slower than the 32 bit version.
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21:02:55 <zzo38> What circumstances does adding 'volatile' to a C code make it faster?
21:04:29 <zzo38> Will it help with what you have described (with DES)? Although, might that depend on the target computer, though?
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21:32:19 <int-e> Actually I'm unsure why this is making the code faster when movabsq exists? Having the constants in tables might relieve register pressure, hmm.
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21:50:17 <int-e> uhm, dear compiler, why do you do... movabsq $1229782938247303440, %r8; orq$1, %r8 ...instead of just the movabsq?
21:50:30 <int-e> (incremented by 1)
21:54:14 <b_jonas> int-e: what are your compiler options?
21:54:18 <int-e> Yeah there are some stupid things going on here... the table-based code has 17 fewer instructions (114 instead of 131) for the actual computation... I wonder how it would perform with movabsq instead of those table loads
21:54:39 <int-e> 12.1.0 and 14.0.6, what Debian unstable has.
21:54:50 <b_jonas> *options*
21:54:52 <b_jonas> I said options, not version
21:54:56 <int-e> options
21:54:59 <int-e> just -O3
21:55:05 <b_jonas> thanks
21:55:14 <b_jonas> and yes, then that sounds odd
21:55:47 <int-e> b_jonas: The actual constant in the code is 0x1111111111111111UL
21:57:15 <b_jonas> "Have you ever added 'volatile' to C code to make code *faster*" => no. I've added volatile as a weak attempt to try to inhibit optimizations to measure the speed of some pure computation though.
21:58:42 <b_jonas> "So now I have a constant table as a global variable. And a dummy function that modifies it.
21:59:06 <b_jonas> " => with an alignas to page-align it?
21:59:08 <zzo38> I have once added volatile to a member of a structure to try to inhibit fast math optimizations for only that variable; I don't know if that is effective or if it is the only way to be done, though, or even if it is necessary
21:59:41 <int-e> b_jonas: I didn't bother with alignment. It'll be in cache anyway.
22:00:29 <b_jonas> you only need alignment if you have like a 16 or 32 byte array and you unaligned load sections from it. probably not the case for DES, but comes up elsewhere
22:00:41 <b_jonas> can even be 64 bytes
22:00:47 <int-e> Ah, *some* extra instructions are expected of course, because of m,r variants of instructions like andq c+8(%rip), %rdi
22:01:00 <int-e> (r,m if this were intel style)
22:01:05 <b_jonas> int-e: is there maybe a jump targeting the orq instruction?
22:01:24 <int-e> b_jonas: there's no label there, so nope
22:01:36 <int-e> (I'm looking at -S output, not disassembly)
22:01:57 <b_jonas> yeah... some compilers emit numeric jumps, but you probably don't have that much these days
22:02:18 <b_jonas> no idea why the orq is there then
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22:02:38 <b_jonas> maybe it's to set flags?
22:02:40 <b_jonas> clear flags rather
22:02:50 <b_jonas> does it check flags in a later instruction without overwriting them?
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22:03:16 <b_jonas> any flag other than carry
22:03:23 <b_jonas> so sign, zero, overflow
22:03:53 <b_jonas> flag could come from different instructions in first loop iteration and later iterations
22:04:14 <b_jonas> overflow flag is suspect, so look for signed comparisons
22:04:18 <b_jonas> there's no direct way to clear it
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22:06:21 <b_jonas> huh, the or instruction clears the carry flag too? ok
22:06:54 <b_jonas> so it doesn't tear the flags to half
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22:07:48 <b_jonas> int-e: my guess is, it wants to change the zero and/or sign and/or overflow flags for a later instruction
22:11:50 <int-e> b_jonas: here's some actual code (reduced, probably not minimal): http://paste.debian.net/1253549/
22:13:30 <int-e> b_jonas: I've seen a variant of that code where the 0x1111111111111110 value is actually used... and the orq $1, %rsi became lea 1(%rsi),%r10
22:18:38 <int-e> Oh, it also fails to recognize the bit rotations.
22:34:34 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, so it's not for flags either apparently
22:35:19 <b_jonas> no clue then
22:37:25 <b_jonas> thanks
22:40:27 <b_jonas> maybe it wants a nop and picks a weird one
22:40:43 <b_jonas> but it's a very weird one to pick
22:40:44 <int-e> Anyway, it's beginning to look like most of the slowdown comes from needless multiplication of constants... having both 0x11...10 and 0x11...11 around when the latter would work for the former is unfortunate.
22:41:41 <b_jonas> if it's hot code, try to rewrite it so it happens in a loop and the constants are loaded only once
22:41:54 <b_jonas> unless there's like too few registers, but it doesn't seem like that there
22:42:21 <int-e> I think this may be a lea 1(%rsi), %rsi at some point.
22:42:40 <int-e> or something equivalent to that in an intermediate code
22:42:55 <int-e> regardless, it's weird.
22:43:53 <int-e> there's also this pattern of replacing shifts by leas
22:44:08 <int-e> cf. lines 57-59 in the paste
22:44:14 <b_jonas> if it's on a critical path and actually makes your code worse (unlikely) and you can prove that by improving the assembly by hand, then you should report it as a compiler bug
23:00:11 <b_jonas> (but only if you're willing to follow the project-specific instructions for how to report a bug, which, if you've seen bug trackers you'll know, apparently 90% of bug ticket writers can't)
23:01:13 <b_jonas> (people on the internet are annoying sometimes, omitting important information that they have from their bug tickets)
23:03:08 <b_jonas> (it's especially annoying when your co-workers do that for a work project so you can't just ignore their request)
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06:22:26 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck Encoded Concatenative Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103166&oldid=100083 * Olus2000 * (+31) Added to Tuiring Tarpits category
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16:54:01 <esolangs> [[Dot's]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103167&oldid=102961 * Ilikecreepers * (+7) /* the complcated stuff */
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18:37:46 <int-e> b_jonas: https://gist.github.com/int-e/1d9ec969b5de773b40b74aadab1ce620 is my DES experiment so far, the thing where I'm seeing a significant speedup from forcing the compiler to load constants from a table instead of generating them inline. This may very well depend on the CPU architecture though.
18:40:49 <int-e> For example, the same code with gcc-10.2.1 on an i7-6700 is far less dramatic, the difference is almost lost in the noise
18:41:41 <int-e> (you can specify a C compiler with (rm main &&) make CC=...)
18:43:02 <int-e> (Also... DES. This is DES in ECB mode. Not what you should do in practice. But I'm (re-)learning about bit permutations, so that is fun.)
18:45:17 <b_jonas> int-e: have you tried to compile with --march=native (or whatever cpu your target has)?
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18:47:45 <b_jonas> or maybe ask the gcc folks
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18:48:20 <int-e> b_jonas: I have tried that; it makes the code slower in the case of clang; it seems to have no real effect for gcc.
18:49:25 <int-e> b_jonas: In the case of clang it does, however, eliminate the difference between the constant pool and non-constant pool versions of the 64 bit code... so that's something?
18:49:40 <int-e> It's all pretty weird.
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18:59:40 <int-e> It's not really important either. Noone needs DES :P
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19:11:37 <b_jonas> int-e: do you think this is something the compiler does only for DES specifically?
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19:30:35 <int-e> b_jonas: well, it's unusually constant-rich bit manipulation code
19:31:24 <int-e> b_jonas: something entirely different: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-binary-counter.png (counts backwards because carries are triggered on low -> high flanks)
19:34:34 <int-e> I imagine there are more compact designs that rely more heavily on the undefined state (which here is only used for the reset line)
19:35:08 <b_jonas> hehe, you optimized it
19:35:23 <b_jonas> nice
19:35:37 <b_jonas> I didn't feel like I had to optimize it further than I did
19:35:44 <int-e> though there was a bit of synergy; the negator serves both for producing the next bit value and as part of the edge trigger
19:35:51 <b_jonas> I made sure it's reliable and not taking up a huge area and stopped there
19:36:28 <int-e> ("the", there are two; I mean the one to the bottom,bottom,left of the monitor)
19:37:14 <int-e> So, hmm. I could count foward if I switched the & for an | and switched the negator and delay (by transistor) before the next bit.
19:37:33 <int-e> and it'd fit in exactly the same layout.
19:39:42 <int-e> b_jonas: I didn't spend much time on this... I had this idea (using a single memory cell with edge-triggered complement) running through my head and spent maybe 20 minutes on this. (I'd like to say 10 but time tends to pass quickly when doing these things)
19:40:02 <b_jonas> int-e: or you can count backwards but say it counts forwards because the 1 signal represents a 0 bit in your number and a 0 signal represents a 1 bit in your number. it's not like a negated representation is weird when you're building logic from low-level single-bit gates.
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19:51:23 <int-e> Ah, no, complementing would make the reset unreliable. Isn't that fun :)
19:52:04 <int-e> But yeah, counting backwards is just fine for hub control purposes.
19:52:37 <int-e> just needs some care when choosing the counter value to reset to
19:55:35 <int-e> b_jonas: basically, since undefined counts as 0, with &, undefined inhibits carrys; with | it wouldn't and that causes... interesting effects.
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21:04:05 <esolangs> [[Bidiroop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103168&oldid=101982 * BoundedBeans * (+36) Fixed indentation in brainfuck interpreter
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21:10:19 <b_jonas> int-e: I reset to zero because it's not hard to change what counter value to look for to trigger the flush. the comparison can run at high latency, since if it does you just decrease the target number that you compare to. it's the increment that has to run fast.
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21:12:45 <b_jonas> but also you can do the comparison with low latency, because you can make a many-input logical-or gate that runs in a bounded number of ticks if you just convert the zero inputs to undefineds with transistors
21:13:26 <b_jonas> so I think it's worth to make the reset as simple as your accumulator lets you get away with
21:13:44 <b_jonas> build the accumulator first, figure out what the easiest way is to reset it, including using conflicts
21:14:12 <b_jonas> like just EMP the circuits by suddenly transistoring both a 0 and a 1 into all its parts, bam, reset
21:14:26 <b_jonas> and that's just worst case, usually you can do it easier than that
21:18:59 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103169&oldid=103155 * BoundedBeans * (+317) Majorly reorganized languages into "families"
21:33:46 <int-e> b_jonas: ah but it's easier to wait for the carry to flush out... less worry about the propagation time through the counter
21:34:54 <int-e> b_jonas: and in the little design I have there, the reset value is stored in constant signals. they could even be buttons instead.
21:35:48 <int-e> it's really just a sketch though; I'm not going to use this for anything
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21:44:22 <esolangs> [[C@]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103170&oldid=101981 * BoundedBeans * (-2) fixed unimplemented category
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22:14:10 <b_jonas> yeah, your crazy lockstep design doesn't need it
22:14:29 <b_jonas> nor would I need a counter if I just used splitteers
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23:14:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Seemingly Unrelated * New user account
23:16:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103171&oldid=103144 * Seemingly Unrelated * (+84) /* Introductions */
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23:17:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103172&oldid=103171 * Seemingly Unrelated * (+101) /* Introductions */
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23:38:32 <esolangs> [[DFA-er Finite State Automaton Proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103173&oldid=92331 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Link to DFA-er
23:39:37 <salpynx> I've just realised that 2 reg Minsky machines use a different set of instructions (minimum 3) from 3 or more register ones (minimum 2). This seems to be a common misunderstanding / easy mistake to make.
23:39:55 <salpynx> I was trying to use Portable Minsky Machine Notation for creating 2 register program machines, and realised it can't. Not without 3 registers.
23:40:09 <salpynx> It's more like 3 cell bf. It's why 3 cell bf is TC, and 2 cell isn't.
23:40:51 <salpynx> There are a number of wiki TC 'proofs' which are wrong because of this misconception:
23:40:58 <salpynx> 2Swap, Minsky Swap (ha, I wrote the faulty 'proof' for that one :( ), Yoctostack
23:41:20 <salpynx> Autopsy TC proof appears to use 2 reg MM, but has 4 unbounded regs available, so the proof is flawed, but the langauge still seems TC.
23:42:25 <salpynx> possibly others... anything that relies on a limit of 2 registers, and only using the obvious MM 2 commands: inc and dec+conditional
23:42:53 <salpynx> The naming is confusing; naming 2 different machines the same thing. There's also the 1 register TC machine Minsky mentions, but for some reason it's clearer that that one has different 'extra' instructions.
23:43:31 <salpynx> Minsky does say it: "For our purposes here it is more convenient to assume that we have [a'], [a-(n)], and [go(n)] at the start. Then ... (rest of 2reg TC proof)" on p. 256 , but it's not emphasised.
23:43:53 <salpynx> Re-reading Minsky (p.207), his explicit mention of a TC 3 reg machine requires the extra 'go(n)' instruction to eliminate the wasteful w. A 'normal' 2 instruction 3 reg Minsky machine is only TC because it can simulate a 3 instruction 2 reg described in chapter 14.
23:48:51 <salpynx> I needed to vent. now I can move on to something else.
2022-09-13
01:10:31 <salpynx> In Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines Theorem 14.1-1 phrases the 2 reg machine as having two instructions (another, new set): inc_and_branch, dec_or_branch_if_zero
01:10:46 <salpynx> The next page p.258 remark incorrectly summarises that theorem's addition instruction as: $₁Iⱼ$₂ → $₁Iⱼ₊₁$₂
01:10:53 <salpynx> I think it should be: $₁Iⱼ$₂ → $₁Iⱼ'$₂ i.e. The next instruction is j-prime (jump anywhere), not j+1 (go-to-next)
01:11:05 <salpynx> It's subtle, but it's at literally the final summing up and tying it back to previous results remark of the 2reg machine proof, so being accurate is important.
01:13:11 <salpynx> I guess I'm claiming Minsky got it wrong / oversimplified too, (at least a typographical error) in Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines on p.258.
01:16:26 <salpynx> Big claim, I'm interested to know if people here have access to the book and agree, or can point to something I'm missing.
01:20:54 <salpynx> I'm not saying theorem 14.1-1 is wrong, that seems right with those very specific instruction. The subsequent remark tying it back to improve upon previous results on canonical systems is inaccurate though, at least in the notation used.
01:21:33 <salpynx> (instruction -> instructions)
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05:31:16 <esolangs> [[!or]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103174&oldid=102849 * Lon233bcc * (+4)
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06:33:29 <b_jonas> sorry what?
06:34:29 <b_jonas> I think you're misunderstanding something
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06:43:55 <salpynx> TC Minsky machines with 3 or more registers have instructions: inc(r), decz(r, n)
06:44:33 <salpynx> 2 reg TC Minsky machines have instructions { inc(r), decz(r, n), go(n) }  OR { decz(r, n), incgo(r, n) }
06:45:37 <salpynx> A 2 reg Minsky machine with only the inc(r), decz(r, n) instructions is not TC, but that distinction doesn't seem to emphasised anywhere
06:46:52 <salpynx> well, not that I've seen, and it seems to be a mistake which is frequently made.
06:48:45 <b_jonas> salpynx: but what do those second instructions do and aren't those just assembly macro shortcuts? I don't understand what you mean by their name
06:51:00 <salpynx> sorry, there doesn't seem to be a standard notation for the instructions. I'm trying to stick to Minsky's descriptions, but he uses different notation at different points too
06:51:47 <b_jonas> salpynx: are you sure it's not just a notation to increment a register multiple times in a single go, which you can compile to multiple instructions that increment a counter once (but you have to manage all the state labels)?
06:52:54 <salpynx> inc(r) : Increase register r by one, and go to the next instruction.  decz(r, n) : if register r is 0, jump to instruction n, otherwise decrease register r by 1 , which I think is the standard way people think of MMs
06:53:20 <b_jonas> in particular, I read the Aho, Ullman (1972) book, and I'm pretty sure that it gives a proof that two-counter Minsky machines are Turing-complete, because I'm still deliberately choosing to forget that proof, and all I'm remembering that in general it requires another level of exponential slowdown over the exponential slowdown you already have by using Minsky machines instead of machines with more than
06:53:26 <b_jonas> one symbol in the stack alphabets.
06:53:27 <salpynx> go(n) is an unconditional jump, which lets the program go back
06:54:06 <b_jonas> salpynx: that makes sense so far, but what about the other instructions that you mentioned then?
06:55:22 <salpynx> incgo(r, n) = is Increase register r by one and then jump to instruction n unconditionally, which lets you have a advance one instruction, or jump anywhere, forwards or back.
06:55:36 <salpynx> Jumping back is imposible otherwise
06:56:58 <salpynx> Minsky makes a point of a register 'w' in the 5 register machine which is wasted because all it does in allow a go(n) instruction to be made from dec(w, n) -- a guaranteed failed test to let you jump arbitrarily
06:59:07 <salpynx> The thing that struck me is that there are quite a few instruction sets discussed, and they have pretty clear trade offs with the number of registers required to be certain things. You can trade a register for an instruction
07:00:20 <salpynx> I have only been looking at Minsky, esowiki languages, and my own experiments. I'll try to locate the Aho, Ullman (1972) book
07:01:21 <b_jonas> salpynx: wait, so all you're saying is a three-register Minsky machine is still TC if you don't use arbitrary finite state control, but only restricted types of programs that can only jump after trying to pop an empty stack?
07:02:28 <b_jonas> that might be true but I don't think it's very illuminating. the normal Minsky machine that I think of is the one that has arbitrary finite control so it can jump any time, or alternately the increment instruction has one goto target and the decrement instruction has two, or alternately the increment instruction has one goto target and the decrement has two but they're adjacent lines
07:03:27 <salpynx> Well, if I understand what you mean, that's what Minsky is saying ; 3 regs,  inc(n), and decz(r, n) , is TC , and I agree and can see how that works, but removing one register breaks it
07:03:27 <b_jonas> but I don't see why that would break any proofs that reduce something *to* Minsky machines, rather than the other direction
07:04:27 <salpynx> The Autopsy TC proof is the most sensible / best one that might be affected http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric/autopsy/autopsy.html  -- I'm still trying to figure it out
07:05:07 <salpynx> but taking Keymaker's statement at face value "any Minsky Machine program using no more than 2 registers and only INC and DEC instructions (which is, of course, a Turing-complete system)."
07:05:32 <salpynx> it seems like it falls short
07:08:39 <salpynx> Any language that tries to be clever by using minimal (2) unbounded registers , and reduced instruction sets could fall for this -- Minsky Swap seems the prime example.
07:08:48 <b_jonas> wait, sorry, ignore my last line
07:08:50 <b_jonas> that was stupid
07:09:50 <salpynx> The proof stuff on the Minsky Swap page is written by me, and I now think it's wrong, because I messed up the instruction set.
07:10:31 <b_jonas> ok, so if you happened to want to prove a language turing-complete by compiling Minksy machines to it, but this reduction is so limited that it can only jump after a failed decrement, then yes, you could have a problem. so are there really any such attempts to proof that aren't trivial to fix, by allowing jumps anywhere, or by allowing more than one symbol on the stacks, or allowing more than two
07:10:37 <b_jonas> counters?
07:12:12 <salpynx> b_jonas: your Minsky machine conception seems sensible -- jumping at any time is helpful. The problem seems to be there is no clear definitions, and it's not generally a problem unless
07:12:30 <salpynx> someone is trying to be minimal as possible.
07:13:02 <b_jonas> salpynx: ok, I didn't know you'd call the classes with no full finite control Minsky machines
07:13:57 <salpynx> I first ran into problems with PMMN, which, while it makes working with general Minsky machines nice, it can't simulate a TC 2 reg machine (with only internal registers)
07:15:11 <salpynx> I'm just going by what's written in the book Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines, which I thought was the best treatment of it.
07:17:10 <salpynx> I think the root of my frustration + surprise is you can look up the 'fact': How many registers does a Minsky machine require to be TC
07:17:36 <salpynx> and combine it with the 'fact': What instructions does a Minsky machine support?
07:18:21 <salpynx> ... and come to a wrong conclusion that a 2 register machine can be TC with two simple instructions.
07:21:30 <salpynx> Also surprised that there's a lot of work of minimal bf command sets to get to 3 cell bf, but there's less on the Minsky machine version
07:22:18 <salpynx> Minsky tends to call his machine 'program machines', if that helps terminology.
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07:27:11 <b_jonas> I think I understand now why you mentioned 3-cell Brainfuck: Brainfuck is what popularizes this kind of silly restricted control flow, and while the restriction usually doesn't matter, for variants like BF on a fixed short length tape or Bfjoust it does
07:29:15 <b_jonas> "Minsky tends to call his machine 'program machines'," => I call them counter machines, or 2-counter machines for the case of two counters. I only started to hear "Minsky" here from ais523.
07:30:37 <b_jonas> well ok, not just those. regular expressions are the other thing that popularizes them.
07:34:37 <b_jonas> but even so, brainfuck, regular expressions, and pascal without goto (with only if and while) are restrictions that also limit your branches to properly nest; the one you're talking about only restricts where you can place a jump but allows arbitrary targets there. I guess that's not too weird either, that kind of restriction could arise semi-naturally, but it's not one I'm thinking of often
07:34:54 <b_jonas> dunno
07:37:48 <b_jonas> I guess I just haven't met these kinds of restrictions recently
07:37:57 <b_jonas> the ones I've seen all allow arbitrary finite control with conditional gotos
07:38:12 <b_jonas> or if-goto-else-gotos or whatnot
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09:11:29 <salpynx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_machine describes a Minsky machine as having 2 instructions: { INC ( r, z ), JZDEC ( r, ztrue, zfalse) }
09:13:58 <salpynx> I think instruction sets { { INC ( r ) , JZDEC ( r, ztrue, zfalse) } or { INC ( r, z ), JZDEC ( r, ztrue ) } would give the same ability, trading arbitrary jumps for sequential ones in two different locations.
09:17:34 <salpynx> These would be TC with 2 registers. Being able to branch to a non-sequential next instruction is crucial for only 2 registers. Adding another register allows arbitrary jumps to be simulated while retaining data storage and a working / testing reg
09:20:30 <salpynx> I'll try and read some of the other literature on Counter machines. It feels like there should be a table of trade-offs for minimal basis machines like this, in terms of branch instructions, allowed values, and number of registers etc
09:23:38 <salpynx> b_jonas: "without goto (with only if and while) " ... Portable Minsky Machine notation has that limitation, and that's what struck me as a problem first, it's quite different from a goto, but if you have an extra register, you can simulate the gotos
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10:15:09 <wib_jonas> salpynx: there's kind of a distinction though: programming only if and while is somewhat worse than programming with if, while, and calling named functions. but then even just if and while doesn't really restrict control flow if you can set and clear named flag variables anywhere and the if can test any named flag variable. it can just get ugly
10:15:09 <wib_jonas> with a big while{if{}if{}...if{}} state machine loop in the worst case.
10:16:31 <wib_jonas> I have a kind of dual feeling about the control flow thing: I write almost all my programs with just ifs (or if-elses) and whiles and function calls, but despite that I prefer if the language gives me the ability to write gotos, gotos that I then almost never use.
10:17:43 <int-e> . o O ( 99% of my program terminates )
10:18:44 <wib_jonas> int-e: mine don't because for theoretical reasons I have to consider some kinds of diagnosed fatal errors as non-termination
10:19:18 <wib_jonas> it makes proofs simpler\
10:19:29 <int-e> bottoms are lies
10:20:59 <int-e> Also, what's a fatal error in Turing machines or lambda calculus ;)
10:21:23 <wib_jonas> they may be lies but they make the language composable, and that's what makes the theory and proofs simpler
10:22:09 <wib_jonas> int-e: you may be ";)"ing now but it'll make sense when I reveal how Consumer Society works and why it necessarily has fatal errors
10:22:42 <wib_jonas> (obviously it also has non-termination, just like turing-machines or lambda-calculus)
10:32:26 <wib_jonas> fungot, who invented electrons? J. J. Thomson or Taneb?
10:32:27 <fungot> wib_jonas: ( the least amount of processing, even if their stupidity causes a bunch of
10:32:52 <int-e> `? electron
10:32:55 <HackEso> electron? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:33:38 <wib_jonas> fungot: what's the name of the industry concerned by manufacturing electrons? electrics industry or electronics industry?
10:33:38 <fungot> wib_jonas: why doesn't define-macro work in mzscheme
10:34:42 <int-e> `learn Electrons are a blatant violation of the axiom of foundation: Electron contains chrome, and chrome contains electrons.
10:34:45 <HackEso> Learned 'electron': Electrons are a blatant violation of the axiom of foundation: Electron contains chrome, and chrome contains electrons.
10:35:41 <wib_jonas> ah, nice
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10:36:18 <wib_jonas> I should remove some of my more stupid older wisdoms and use the freed up quota to modify /wisdom/catamorphism
10:36:42 <wib_jonas> I just don't dare to edit it because it already exists and its body is unrelated to the cat fitting through hole joke
10:36:44 <wib_jonas> `? catamorphism
10:36:46 <HackEso> A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.
10:39:13 <wib_jonas> nah, even if I free up quota I wouldn't be able to edit this
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12:24:02 <esolangs> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103175&oldid=102034 * Quintopia * (+194) /* Befunge-93 and Befunge-98 */
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13:06:11 <wib_jonas> `run /bin/cat /hackenv/bin/$'\x0F' # so this is an invisible command that ... does what exactly?\
13:06:12 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
13:06:47 <wib_jonas> so it's just like the double and triple backtick?
13:06:52 <wib_jonas> `run /bin/cat /hackenv/bin/\`
13:06:53 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
13:06:55 <wib_jonas> `run /bin/cat /hackenv/bin/\`\`
13:06:56 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
13:09:10 <wib_jonas> and more backticks overwrites the locale, but differs slightly in other ways. heck.
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13:45:11 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103176&oldid=102452 * Seemingly Unrelated * (+0)
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17:13:57 <esolangs> [[Main Page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103177&oldid=103176 * Seemingly Unrelated * (+20) Rounded corners
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18:45:03 <esolangs> [[UglyBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103178&oldid=25413 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2148) Reformatted and extended the documentation.
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18:46:58 <esolangs> [[UglyBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103179&oldid=103178 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+164) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the UglyBF programming language on GitHub.
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18:49:10 <esolangs> [[UglyBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103180&oldid=103179 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+206) Added categories to the page.
18:50:54 <esolangs> [[UglyBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103181&oldid=103180 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+103) Added an infinite cat program as a further example.
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19:56:04 <esolangs> [[Colang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103182&oldid=103008 * Rdococ * (+973) Update for new syntax
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19:59:52 <esolangs> [[Colang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103183&oldid=103182 * Rdococ * (+72) Fix inconsistent indentation
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20:15:53 <esolangs> [[Colang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103184&oldid=103183 * Rdococ * (+66)
20:16:40 <esolangs> [[Colang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103185&oldid=103184 * Rdococ * (+22) /* Sets */
20:17:28 <esolangs> [[Colang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103186&oldid=103185 * Rdococ * (+44) Fix code tags
20:27:01 <esolangs> [[UglyBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103187&oldid=103181 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+0) Rectified an erroneous instance of < instead of > in the command list.
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23:41:56 <esolangs> [[Optimism]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103188&oldid=37322 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) Add link and category
23:45:02 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103189 * Salpynx * (+5248) Starting a table of minimal TC counter machines for comparison
23:53:04 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Minimal TC program machines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103190&oldid=103189 * Salpynx * (-3) typo: reducinging the inging
2022-09-14
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02:36:11 <esolangs> [[Counterfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=103191 * Salpynx * (+1830) haven't made one of these for a while
03:40:40 <esolangs> [[Counterfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103192&oldid=103191 * Salpynx * (+49) /* Commands */ change d behaviour to be more like jzdec() than jnzdec()
03:46:51 <esolangs> [[Counterfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103193&oldid=103192 * Salpynx * (-52) /* Commands */ rephrase
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05:48:28 <esolangs> [[Counterfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103194&oldid=103193 * Salpynx * (+140) table and simple example
06:18:42 <zzo38> What will the operating system design of my ideas will be called? There are ideas inspired by many different other systems, including TRON, Plan9, Amiga, TempleOS, and others.
06:19:21 <zzo38> Some of the ideas are what I think that TRON should have been, but in many cases it isn't.
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10:37:38 <esolangs> [[Colang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=103195&oldid=103186 * Rdococ * (-603) Update for change to decoration syntax, remove inheritance example
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