←2008-07 2008-08 2008-09→ ↑2008 ↑all
2008-08-01
00:00:56 <tusho> SimonRC: i could just get tusho.org
00:01:00 <tusho> but I like creative domains
00:01:04 <tusho> ephemera.org, ontological.org
00:01:08 <tusho> all great places to dump stuff
00:01:12 <tusho> all taken.
00:01:17 <SimonRC> .net?
00:01:24 <SimonRC> epheme.ra?
00:01:34 <SimonRC> .com?
00:01:49 <SimonRC> .<your_country_code_here>
00:01:51 <SimonRC> ?
00:02:04 <ihope> Ooh, I can put a bashbot in here.
00:02:17 <tusho> SimonRC: 1. it's not related to networks 2. I'm kind of going for longetivity (ironically) so I'd prefer a correct domain - in this case, .org 3. see 2 4. I do not consider my identity tied to a country in any way and do not wish for a permanent URL to depend on my current location
00:02:36 <SimonRC> ok
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00:06:59 * SimonRC goes to bed
00:08:44 <tusho> someone else suggest a nice name along the lines of ephemera.org, ontological.org?
00:11:25 <ihope> epistemological.org?
00:11:28 * ihope shrugs
00:11:38 <ihope> transient.org?
00:11:46 <ihope> What do all these mean, anyway?
00:11:57 <tusho> ihope: ephemera is non-permanent information
00:12:01 <tusho> stuff not recorded
00:12:08 <tusho> washed out by the tides of time, flotsam and jetsam
00:12:17 <ihope> Try transient.org, then: stuff passing in and out of existence quickly.
00:12:24 <tusho> ontological ... well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology
00:12:29 <tusho> ihope: Taken.
00:12:32 <tusho> Squatted, even.
00:12:45 <tusho> also I couldn't type epistemological.org all the time :)
00:12:59 <ihope> Ontology looks really boring.
00:14:16 <tusho> Sure.
00:14:20 <tusho> But ontological.org is a nice name.
00:14:24 <ihope> "Does this chair exist?" "Yep." "Prove it." "It's obvious." "No it isn't." "Yes it is." "What if your senses are being deceived?" "Then maybe it doesn't exist."
00:14:33 <tusho> ephemera.org is still my favourite
00:14:38 <tusho> do you think I could kill the photographer guy
00:14:41 <tusho> and steal the odmain
00:14:42 <tusho> *domain
00:14:53 <ihope> "Does 3 exist?" "Yep." "Prove it." "It's obvious." "Could it possibly not exist?" "Nope." "Prove it." "Make it not exist."
00:15:57 * tusho makes 3 not exist
00:15:57 <tusho> BAM
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00:29:23 <tusho> So. Wikis.
00:29:26 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:29:26 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
00:29:27 <tusho> innerHTML)">
00:29:39 <tusho> A three-line wiki, based on wikke (http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/) sans backlinks.
00:29:44 <tusho> Requires a server that can support PUT.
00:29:55 <tusho> Setup: Same as wikke. Usage: Ditto.
00:31:11 <tusho> Anyone wanna offer something shorter?
00:31:13 <tusho> Ooh, wait...
00:32:27 -!- adu has joined.
00:32:54 <tusho> Darn.
00:32:59 <tusho> Thought you could use with() but it's the same length
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00:33:46 <adu> in what language?
00:33:55 <tusho> adu: That three line one?
00:34:04 <adu> three line?
00:34:12 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:34:12 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
00:34:12 <tusho> innerHTML)">
00:34:23 -!- lament has quit (Nick collision from services.).
00:34:28 <adu> as in lisp = atomic <|> parens $ many $ lexeme lisp?
00:34:28 <tusho> Usage & installation @ http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/. Mine is the same as wikke, but I removed the backlinks.
00:34:35 <tusho> adu: no
00:34:36 <tusho> http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/
00:34:38 <tusho> errr
00:34:39 <tusho> wait
00:34:41 -!- mental has changed nick to lament.
00:34:47 <tusho> [[
00:34:47 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:34:48 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
00:34:48 <tusho> innerHTML)">
00:34:48 <tusho> ]]
00:34:51 <tusho> adu: from [[ to ]]
00:34:54 <tusho> is a full wiki implementation
00:35:06 <tusho> usage & setup @ http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/ - mine is identical wikke, but I removed backlinks
00:35:14 <tusho> thus removing the php dependency
00:35:20 <tusho> and making it a bit shorter
00:36:31 <adu> ic
00:36:46 * tusho makes a textarea'd version and puts it up online
00:37:01 <adu> interesting
00:37:14 <adu> i'm trying to make language
00:37:27 <adu> and I wish it was as easy as 3 lines
00:38:13 <adu> so does that mean my above code is a full implementation of lisp?
00:38:32 <tusho> adu: no
00:38:38 <tusho> I don't see where you draw the analogy
00:38:45 <tusho> mine doesn't call out to some library or whatever
00:39:16 <tusho> golf'd to 162 chars:
00:39:17 <tusho> <textarea onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:39:17 <tusho> innerHTML.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+
00:39:18 <tusho> '<br>'+this.outerHTML)">
00:39:20 * tusho puts it online
00:39:38 <adu> i'd like to try it out
00:40:29 <ihope> adu: ello.
00:40:33 <ihope> You're trying to make a language?
00:40:50 <adu> hbi
00:40:57 <adu> ihope: yers
00:41:04 * adu makes 2 many spelling errors
00:41:26 <adu> ihope: are you interested / also designing one?
00:41:36 <ihope> I've made a few, though I rarely implement them.
00:41:48 <ihope> I'm interested in seeing what this language is all about.
00:41:58 <adu> i've implemented 2, but only at the parser level with some basic interpreters behind them
00:42:21 <adu> its all about lists and sets
00:42:41 <ihope> Sounds cool.
00:42:57 <adu> I strongly believe that a good foundation based on these will give more abstract functions
00:42:58 <ihope> Can you describe it?
00:43:01 <adu> yes
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00:43:48 <adu> its going to be a mix of strong static typing (for homogeneous lists/sets) and weak dynamic typing (for heterogeneous lists/sets)
00:44:09 <adu> i don't know how I'm going to pull that off... but thats an implementation detail
00:45:04 <adu> anyways, the syntax isn't something of debate, commas (,) for homogeneous lists/sets and semicolons (;) for heterogeneous lists/sets, and [...] for lists and {...} for sets, obviously
00:46:33 <adu> [1, 2, 3] is a hom-list [3; "hello"] is a heter-list, {a, b, c} is a hom-set and {3; find_average x; res = y} is a heter-set
00:47:51 <adu> I was thinking since most code blocks in all languages start with some identifier anyways, like "with" or "let" or "do" or "for", just make these functions that take heter-sets or heter-lists and evaluate them in parallel or sequentially (respectively)
00:48:52 <adu> because [1, 2, x=y] would evaluate to [1, 2, x=y] but "do [1, 2, x=y]" would evaluate to "y" as in most langs
00:49:14 <adu> ack that should be [1; 2; x=y] bcuz its heterogeneous...
00:49:16 <adu> oops
00:50:05 <adu> and I also would like to experiment with well-documented "fields"
00:50:23 <adu> everything between the commas/semicolons is a "field" or whatever you wanna call it
00:50:50 <adu> each field is of the form (id = patt : value :: type ::: doc)
00:51:08 <adu> where everything except "value" is optional
00:52:20 <adu> and "doc" would be used for formal documentation, such as labels for building GUIs, or function descriptions for building API/manuals
00:53:05 <adu> and since each field is going to possibly be a binding, that binding will be in effect throughout the list/set
00:53:24 <adu> like [x=5, x] could evaluate to [5, 5]
00:53:59 <adu> I'm still not sure when that evaluation will take place, though, because I also want bindings to be either first-class or reifyable
00:55:05 * ihope nods
00:56:02 <adu> so that you can treat these also as maps/cases like "do [x=False, [True: 3, False: 4] (some operator?) x]" to give 4
00:57:01 <adu> I'd like to treat [True: 3, False: 4] as a function from bool to int, but there are other problems with doing that...
00:57:40 <adu> so I may just have to think up some higher-order thing like Monads or something to deal with it cuz I want to write just "[True: 3, False: 4] False" == 4
00:58:23 <adu> the difference between "id=" and "patt:" being that one establishes a binding, and the other pattern matches against an input, like in a lambda
00:59:05 <adu> and i'm assuming "True" and "False" would already be established, so we don't want to redefine them...
00:59:53 <adu> ihope: making any sense so far?
01:01:10 <ihope> Yep.
01:01:35 <ihope> It doesn't seem like you need monads to treat something like [True: 3, False, 4] as a function.
01:02:12 <adu> ...anyways, "if x y z" could be implemented "{True: y, False: z} x" and "case" very similarly
01:02:14 <ihope> In Python, {True: 3, False: 4}[False] is 4, I think.
01:02:27 * ihope nods
01:02:28 <adu> yup
01:03:16 <adu> anyways I also have some other ideas about modules, objects, and first-class types, but thats kind of auxiliary, thats the jist of it
01:03:46 <tusho> cool
01:04:14 <adu> but the languages that have inspired me the most are Io, Scheme, Haskell, and Mathematica
01:04:34 <adu> so I'm probably going to reimplement some of their features eventually...
01:04:57 * ihope nods vigorously
01:05:02 <lament> it's kinda hard to combine those meaningfully :)
01:05:35 <adu> I have put a great deal of thought into the map combinator
01:05:46 <adu> perhaps too much thought
01:05:49 <tusho> adu: mathematica
01:05:51 <tusho> :(
01:05:56 <adu> tusho: why :(
01:06:13 <tusho> horrible language, horrible implementation
01:06:42 <adu> tusho: I think its a great language, and a great implementation, you have to be more specific
01:06:51 <tusho> no, i don't :)
01:07:03 <adu> ok
01:07:08 <tusho> (unrelatedly, wolfram is a jerk)
01:07:13 <adu> lol
01:07:24 <adu> thats probably true, most CEOs are
01:08:17 * tusho recalls the announcement when our resident ais523 proved that the 2,3 machine is TC
01:08:21 <adu> lament: they're pretty similar if you look past their plethora of differences ;)
01:08:33 <adu> tusho: your in UK?
01:08:42 <tusho> "Aha! Some guy did this. Whatever. But anyway! This is so great. this means that I WAS RIGHT. Therefore we can further my rightness by leveraging how right I am."
01:08:44 <tusho> adu: yes
01:08:51 <tusho> why?
01:09:21 <adu> tusho: did he actuallly say that?
01:09:43 <tusho> adu: that was paraphrased, duh
01:09:47 <adu> lol
01:09:59 <tusho> http://blog.wolfram.com/index.php?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved
01:10:10 <tusho> Wolfram on how right he is and something about some stupid guy named Alex Smith that did something
01:10:29 <oklopol> takes a real genius to guess a complex-looking thing is tc
01:11:02 <oklopol> with infinite storage, that's like so rare.
01:11:02 <adu> I could guess something like that
01:11:06 <adu> I think my toilet is TC
01:11:07 <tusho> when making a language it's hard not to make a lang tc
01:11:46 <adu> tusho: no its easy
01:12:02 <tusho> adu: Not if you go past trivia.
01:12:13 <tusho> (Where trivia is being used as the plural of trivial.)
01:12:23 <adu> hmm
01:12:34 <adu> so brainf wouldn't count?
01:12:39 <adu> what about half of branf?
01:12:49 <lament> what?
01:12:56 <adu> half of brainfuck
01:12:58 <lament> which half?
01:13:08 <adu> like instead of - and + just +
01:13:16 <adu> and instead of < and >, just >
01:13:30 <adu> so all you can do is increment and move forward
01:13:37 <adu> and without jumping operators
01:13:45 <pikhq> I suspect Alex needs to kick Wolfram's ass.
01:13:48 <adu> i don't think that's TC
01:14:09 <tusho> pikhq: I think it's more amusing to watch them bumble around.
01:14:09 <adu> pikhq: no, Alex should sue Wolfram for $75,000 more
01:14:47 <lament> adu: no, but it doesn't really qualify as a programming language because you can't write anything in it
01:15:01 <adu> lament: like java?
01:15:15 <lament> if you can't write anything in java, you need your brain examined
01:15:37 <tusho> uhh
01:15:40 <tusho> just + and > is TC
01:15:44 <tusho> if you have a wrapping tape + cells
01:15:54 <tusho> - = 256(or 255) * +
01:16:02 <oerjan> tusho: i don't think so
01:16:04 <tusho> < = 3000(or 2999,3001 whatever) * >
01:16:09 <pikhq> tusho: No.
01:16:18 <pikhq> tusho: You need to be able to do a loop.
01:16:20 <pikhq> *Need*.
01:16:28 <tusho> pikhq: Yes. So you have [ and ]
01:16:33 <tusho> and , and .
01:16:38 <pikhq> Which isn't just + and >
01:16:41 <tusho> oh wait
01:16:42 <adu> ya I tried to do "public override static bool reduce = \xs -> foldr (+) $ repeat xs"
01:16:44 <adu> and it didn't work
01:16:45 <tusho> 'and without jumping operators'
01:16:53 <pikhq> Anyways, real minimalism in Brainfuck?
01:17:02 <tusho> adu: HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, it's hilarious because you made fun of Java.
01:17:05 <tusho> Stick it to the man.
01:17:12 <pikhq> Boolfuck for one...
01:17:36 <lament> tusho: i don't see how, either you have a finite tape, and so cells must be infinite, and so loops don't work; or the tape is infinite so you have no memory
01:17:56 <tusho> lament: true...
01:17:59 <tusho> okay then
01:18:20 <oerjan> tusho: if you lack - you cannot use infinite-size cells usefully. if you lack < you cannot use an infinite tape. if you lack both, you have no way to use infinite memory
01:18:21 <oklopol> + and > aren't tc no matter what size and number of cells you have
01:18:25 <pikhq> It appears someone has managed to create a Brainfuck-based system with 3 instructions.
01:18:27 <tusho> yes
01:18:43 <oklopol> you need either infinite cells or an infinite amount of cells, and in both cases either + or > is insufficient for doing anything
01:19:37 <oklopol> always glad to repeat a point made by two people.
01:19:51 <oklopol> ...is that trepeating?
01:19:56 <oklopol> tripeating
01:20:07 <oerjan> oklopol: trepanation, to get it through his THICK SKULL
01:20:12 <tusho> har har har
01:21:09 <oklopol> hmm
01:21:29 <oklopol> wonder what adding # for appending a zero cell to the right end does
01:21:49 <oklopol> probably not enough
01:21:51 <oerjan> that P'' that predates brainfuck managed to combine a couple of the commands and have just 5 (ignoring . and ,) iirc
01:22:18 <oklopol> the wiki has a more extreme example
01:22:40 <oklopol> well
01:22:58 <oklopol> boolfuck with byte sized cells
01:23:01 <oklopol> is exactly that
01:23:12 <oerjan> er, what?
01:23:36 <oklopol> 5 opers
01:23:41 <oklopol> errr
01:23:49 <oklopol> actually don't you get 5 by just removing -
01:25:48 <oerjan> hm yeah
01:27:18 <oklopol> and i think you can still merge + and >
01:28:06 <tusho> bye for today
01:28:07 <tusho> oklopol: yes
01:28:08 <tusho> make it +>
01:28:10 <tusho> or >+
01:28:11 <tusho> whatever
01:28:26 <oklopol> ya
01:28:39 <oklopol> so four, and coding is still simple as hell
01:29:05 <oklopol> coding is simple? i mean compilation
01:29:06 <oklopol> anyway
01:29:20 <oklopol> yay page loaded! not that i need it anymore
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02:04:41 <adu> ihope: you still there?
02:07:31 <ihope> Yep.
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02:14:25 <adu> o hi
02:14:41 <adu> so do you have any more comments about the lang I described above?
02:28:15 <ihope> Well, it doesn't seem very esoteric.
02:30:57 <psygnisf_> oklopol
02:31:00 <psygnisf_> whats +>?
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02:40:17 <adu> ihope: what if it had no assignment
02:40:38 <ihope> Haskell has no assignment.
02:40:44 <adu> :)
02:46:20 <psygnisfive> no purely functional language has assignment.
02:46:28 <psygnisfive> or atleast no reassignment
02:46:59 <psygnisfive> tho i imagine you could design a system that's purely functional but allows assignment
02:47:38 <psygnisfive> by passing around an implicit state object from statement to statement in CPS
02:47:41 <psygnisfive> or something like that
02:48:16 <ihope> In CPS?
02:48:23 <psygnisfive> continuation passing style
02:48:25 <ihope> Is that necessary?
02:48:37 <psygnisfive> well, perhaps not exactly CPS
02:48:38 <psygnisfive> but
02:48:49 <ihope> Implicit state object passing style. :-)
02:49:00 <psygnisfive> like, if we did it explicitly
02:49:06 <psygnisfive> or showed it, or whatever
02:49:15 <psygnisfive> something like x = x+2 becomes something like
02:50:01 <psygnisfive> function (state) {
02:50:01 <psygnisfive> return newState = copy(state, { x: state.x+2 });
02:50:02 <psygnisfive> }
02:50:06 <psygnisfive> or something, in JS-style
02:50:36 <psygnisfive> er.. deleted the newState =
02:50:37 <psygnisfive> :p
02:51:14 <psygnisfive> so then if you'd do after that x = x*3; that'd be function (state) { return copy(state, { x: state.x*3 }); }
02:51:21 <psygnisfive> each of these would be involved, btw.
02:51:31 <psygnisfive> so x = x + 2; x = x * 3;
02:51:35 <psygnisfive> would just be
02:51:46 <psygnisfive> second(first(startState))
02:51:53 <ihope> I once pondered the idea of having \x being a value distinct from x that takes a value and somehow binds it to x.
02:51:54 <psygnisfive> or in haskellian style
02:51:58 <psygnisfive> first >>= second
02:51:59 <psygnisfive> or something
02:53:11 <psygnisfive> so its atleast possible to model state-based computation without using state-as-such
02:53:40 <psygnisfive> what would that do, ihope? this \x thing, i mean
02:59:29 <ihope> Well, you could define your own operator, :=, saying that "\x := x + 2" increases x by 2.
03:01:18 <psygnisfive> ??
03:24:52 <ihope> The \x would take a value and bind it to x?
03:25:30 <ihope> Then you pass the "binder" into any function that can bind values to variables.
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04:41:36 <psygnisfive> im not sure i follow, ihope.
04:41:38 <psygnisfive> but thats ok.
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06:07:12 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's about 17.
06:07:30 <psygnisfive> what??
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06:18:55 <oklopol> psygnisfive: think about it, i guess you might get it eventually
06:19:24 <psygnisfive> i dont understand! :O
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06:25:19 <oklopol> my eyes hurt
06:37:10 <oklopol> so see you, barely ->
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07:34:50 <psygnisfive> *sigh*
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12:31:07 <ais523> hi tusho
12:31:12 <tusho> you know
12:31:13 <tusho> I just sat down
12:31:14 <tusho> thsi second
12:31:16 <tusho> literally
12:31:31 <tusho> I replied to someone who had messaged me while I was gone with "back"
12:31:33 <tusho> and then I saw that
12:31:41 <ais523> good timing, then
12:31:46 <tusho> L;'
12:31:46 <tusho> ASD fghjkl;'
12:31:47 <tusho> ZXCvbnm,./
12:31:49 <tusho> er
12:31:59 <tusho> ais523: bad timing
12:32:02 <tusho> i had no chance
12:32:12 <ais523> well, ok
12:32:21 <ais523> you are forgiven
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12:43:02 <tusho> meanwhile, too many domains are taken
12:43:06 <tusho> domains suck
12:43:07 <tusho> :p
12:43:31 <ais523> ok, the next big thing: hexspeak in IPv6 addresses
12:43:37 <ais523> that way you don't need a DNS
12:43:41 <tusho> great
12:43:42 <ais523> and it's still memorable
12:43:52 <tusho> ais523: what about companies
12:44:02 <tusho> i don't think apple or microsoft will be happy with having to use 1337speak
12:44:11 <ais523> well, I just made that up, but it's still a great idea
12:44:17 <ais523> and if everyone else is doing it they will to
12:44:19 <ais523> s/to/too/
12:44:24 <tusho> A10101E
12:44:46 <ais523> what's that meant to spell? Anyway, you need a colon every four chars
12:44:53 <ais523> as in 9009:1e::
12:45:02 <tusho> ais523: meant to spell apple
12:45:04 <tusho> 10 = P
12:45:06 <ais523> oh, ok
12:45:09 <ais523> Google is easier
12:45:24 <tusho> a101:01e::
12:45:55 <tusho> anyway, the taken domain in question is ephemera.org which is taken by some stupid photographer who ended the site in january 2007.
12:45:57 <ais523> probably a10:101e:: would scan better, you don't want a colon in the middle of a letter
12:46:04 <tusho> damn photographers >:(
12:46:32 <tusho> (I decided that I didn't want tusho.oprg)
12:46:33 <tusho> *org
12:46:42 <tusho> (Because the content could very well outlive me. Wishful thinking, I know.)
12:47:10 <tusho> (But I would like it not to depend on me for maintainence. So the footer will probably link to /maintainer/ which would redirect to /tusho/, etc.)
12:47:22 <ais523> tusho: you aren't going to end up creating a completely portable website that's robust against everything
12:47:32 <ais523> as in, I can sort-of understand not wanting a geographical website
12:47:42 <tusho> ais523: no, but say I get tired of the site
12:47:49 <tusho> and give up on doing anything with it
12:47:53 <tusho> i'd like for someone else to be able to take it up
12:48:00 <ais523> why not just name it with the null string so that it's just as inappropriate no matter what the website's used for
12:48:06 <tusho> so it'll be freely licensed, kept in a git repository, have it not depend on me, etc
12:48:16 <tusho> anyway, http://ephemera.org/ looks cooler than http://tusho.org/
12:48:17 <ais523> if you call it anything else at all, that's restricting what content you can put on it to some extent...
12:48:27 <tusho> ais523: not unless I use the power of irony
12:48:36 <tusho> (a long-term, well-preserved site calling itself 'ephemera.org')
12:49:28 <tusho> and use the power of non-irony for the actually ephemerical content on it
12:52:46 <tusho> maybe I'll get botte's project namer to name it for me
12:59:50 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/1089610
12:59:53 <tusho> botte plugin example
13:00:47 <ais523> how can it tell a variable from a literal
13:00:54 <ais523> as in the karma nickname command
13:01:04 <tusho> ais523: you don't have literals in command arguments, generally
13:01:24 <ais523> ok, so everything before the first space is literal, everything after's a variable?
13:01:25 <tusho> just like in ruby you can't do: def foo(bar, "baz", quux)
13:01:30 <tusho> well
13:01:34 <ais523> you can in Prolog!
13:01:34 <tusho> first word is the command name
13:01:38 <tusho> so depends on the command prefix
13:01:43 <tusho> botte will probably use .
13:01:45 <tusho> so .karma+ tusho
13:01:59 <tusho> also, the argspec => doc thing is using a nice little trick of ruby's
13:02:04 <ais523> does a variable called 'nickname' automatically limit the possibilities to nicknames?
13:02:10 <tusho> no
13:02:19 <tusho> anyway, it's how it does "keyword arguments" - if you do foo => bar in an arg list, it makes it all a hash
13:02:25 <tusho> foo bar, baz, quux => bang
13:02:29 <tusho> == foo bar, baz, {quux => bang}
13:02:38 <tusho> so it gets the argspec as the key and the documentation as the value
13:02:52 <tusho> and also, i think intentionally restricting it to nicknames is bad here
13:02:56 <tusho> consider .karma- microsoft
13:03:00 <tusho> I should handle case insensitivity thouhg
13:03:30 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:03:45 <ais523> what about prefix/suffix insensitivity?
13:03:52 <ais523> ais523|busy should count the same as ais523
13:03:57 <ais523> according to Freenode's nick rules
13:04:13 <ais523> also note that for historical reasons punctuation marks have case on Usenet too
13:04:17 <ais523> e.g. { is capital [
13:04:21 <ais523> or possibly lowercase [
13:04:24 <ais523> I get confused...
13:04:34 <ais523> and s/Usenet/IRC/
13:04:36 <tusho> ais523: i am going to ignore the { vs [ thing
13:04:38 * ais523 wonders how they managed that
13:04:42 <tusho> because Nobody Cares
13:04:55 <tusho> do the simplest thing that could possibly work etc
13:08:02 <ais523> well you're going to fall afoul of people with nested comments in their email addresses
13:08:10 <ais523> I've taken to doing that in various places recently to see what happens
13:08:17 <ais523> Slashdot seems not to mind, but that's not very surprising
13:08:26 <tusho> ais523: actually, I rarely do much validation of emails
13:08:34 <ais523> makes sense
13:08:46 <tusho> I tend to check for it having an @ in it, a . in it after the @ (but not directly after) and that's about it
13:08:54 <tusho> if I really need to know it's a real email I send a confirmation email
13:09:49 * ais523 wonders about the possibility of tusho's ISP being mean to em by setting up the bounce message for an invalid address to look like an acceptance of the registration or whatever
13:09:59 <tusho> ais523: actually, that's not how you do it
13:10:10 <tusho> because it's basically impossible to tell if an email has actually been sent with servers
13:10:14 <tusho> you send an email with a link with a secret token in
13:10:23 <tusho> like http://site.com/activate/dsfiuyds89ru23894u9898duf89sf892345
13:10:26 <ais523> well, yes, I know
13:10:29 <tusho> :)
13:10:34 <ais523> normally it's done so that the reply can be done via email too
13:10:39 <ais523> i.e. email with a secret token
13:10:46 <tusho> ais523: I can never be sure, your view of the web is ... unconventional
13:10:48 <ais523> and that's the mean-bounce-message thign I was mentioning
13:10:49 <tusho> see, like that
13:10:53 <tusho> barely anybody does that any more
13:11:00 <tusho> mailing lists, sure. but never websites
13:11:15 <ais523> tusho: my view of the Internet is unconventional in that it involves more than just the Web
13:11:22 <tusho> ais523: of course
13:11:25 <tusho> i am not web-centric
13:11:28 <tusho> I just like the web a lot
13:11:37 <ais523> well, most people are web-centric
13:11:50 <tusho> due to its low barrier for content creation and generation, ubiquity and the wide range of content it can support
13:15:42 <ais523> maybe the reason I said Usenet rather than IRC by mistake is that Slashdot were linking to an article claiming that Usenet was dead (and in the comments, someone claimed that it was now finally October 1)
13:16:13 <ais523> they're wrong, though, it's still September, just worse than ever
13:16:17 <ais523> a sort of month 9+i
13:16:38 <tusho> we all have to do our bit to edge closer to october 1...
13:17:00 <ais523> tusho: that basically involves persuading all the idiots on the internet to become more sensible, I doubt that'll happen ever
13:17:25 <ais523> $ sdate date
13:17:25 <ais523> Fri Sep 5449 13:17:19 BST 1993
13:17:35 <tusho> ais523: the 31st of August wasn't perfect...
13:17:37 <ais523> it's such a shame, really...
13:18:02 <ais523> (incidentally sdate is the sort of thing that would drive AnMaster mad)
13:18:05 <tusho> p.s. my birthday is in 21 days, huh.
13:18:15 <AnMaster> ais523, what?
13:18:18 <ais523> that gives me an idea, actually, I wonder what happens if I run cfunge under sdate
13:18:27 <tusho> ais523: It uses posix_time.
13:18:32 <tusho> It'll just pass right through.
13:18:35 <AnMaster> ais523, no system have a command sdate here
13:18:39 <AnMaster> I checked all of mine
13:18:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well it's not the sort of thing I'd expect you to install
13:18:52 * tusho ponders why AnMaster thinks all software is installed by default
13:18:55 <ais523> it wraps all the date system calls
13:19:00 <ais523> so that you get Eternal September dates
13:19:05 <AnMaster> ah..................
13:19:12 <ais523> it confuses a lot of software though as it isn't used to getting day values above 31...
13:19:17 <AnMaster> tusho, I just checked that it wasn't
13:19:45 <AnMaster> ais523, try ddate, I think most systems with GNU coreutils have it
13:19:48 <AnMaster> it is rather silly
13:19:52 <tusho> ais523: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=631969&cid=24419297
13:20:01 <ais523> y claims all of the following:
13:20:03 <ais523> [snip]
13:20:13 <ais523> That the day of the month is 73
13:20:13 <ais523> That the month is 30
13:20:13 <ais523> That the year is 1993
13:20:22 <tusho> AnMaster: I linked to an article a bit ago when someone had a database that they got converted to access ... and the discordian calendar
13:20:22 <AnMaster> month is 30?
13:20:29 <tusho> the whole forum was wtfing
13:20:29 <ais523> interesting, it seems to have come up with an eternal 1993
13:20:36 <ais523> rather than an eternal september
13:20:36 <AnMaster> ais523, they are shifted
13:20:46 <AnMaster> ais523, all are stored in one 32-bit int
13:20:48 <Deewiant> ais523: the date format is year + month*256 + day*256*256 or something
13:20:51 <AnMaster> ais523, but bit shifted
13:20:55 <Deewiant> probably little-endian actually
13:20:58 <Deewiant> but anyhoo
13:20:59 <ais523> ah, that would explain why it got it wrong
13:21:16 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: I linked to an article a bit ago when someone had a database that they got converted to access ... and the discordian calendar <-- heh what!?
13:21:22 <AnMaster> tusho, link?
13:21:30 <tusho> AnMaster: sorry, lost it
13:21:36 <tusho> it was great though
13:21:40 <tusho> wait
13:21:43 <tusho> (p.s. alt.inside-jobs.nine-eleven.wake.up.sheeple)
13:23:02 <tusho> AnMaster: http://forums.devshed.com/database-management-46/ddate-discordian-date-problems-321852.html
13:24:28 <tusho> I like this quote: "Why cause chaos?"
13:24:33 <tusho> very zen
13:24:42 <tusho> or rather, non-zen
13:27:24 <AnMaster> tusho, are the dates in the db actually discordian?
13:27:25 <AnMaster> wtf
13:27:43 <ais523> that reminds me of the alleged justification for INTERCAL (as opposed to the real one)
13:27:43 <tusho> see, I knew I shouldn't have sent AnMaster that link
13:27:46 <tusho> "But it's NOT SENSIBLE"
13:27:53 <AnMaster> it isn't at all indeed
13:28:07 <ais523> AnMaster doesn't quite seem to fit here because he's too sane compared to the rest of us
13:28:23 <tusho> ais523: most sane people can laugh at a joke, though
13:28:38 <tusho> AnMaster points out how the premise is illogical and how it isn't sensible
13:29:02 <ais523> tusho: for all I (and you) know, that's one massive joke that AnMaster's having at our expense
13:29:11 <ais523> and I hope it is, actually, if that behaviour actually does happen
13:29:16 <tusho> ais523: then he's a huge bastard :P
13:29:24 <ais523> of course whether it is or not AnMaster will deny it
13:29:26 <tusho> because it's driving me mad!
13:29:29 <AnMaster> what?
13:29:30 <AnMaster> ....
13:29:57 <ais523> AnMaster: sorry, there really isn't a sensible response to what I just said, and I apologise for digging you into a hole like that
13:30:00 <AnMaster> tusho, actually I find that link quite funny
13:30:03 <AnMaster> just very very wtf
13:30:23 <tusho> ais523: actually he could have said "But that's utterly ridiculous!"
13:31:08 <ais523> tusho: pretty much anyone who is either a programmer or reads lots of Terry Pratchett can easily decode the hidden meaning in that
13:31:13 <AnMaster> well in other channels ppl tend to think I'm *insane* after all, I wrote a modular irc bot in bash and so on
13:31:17 <ais523> oh, or who is used to dealing with politicians
13:31:33 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I got all Terry Pratchett books
13:31:37 <tusho> *have
13:31:41 <AnMaster> and maps and so on
13:31:43 -!- ais523 has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity.
13:31:44 <AnMaster> tusho, sorry, right
13:31:49 * tusho wonders how many times he'll correct got vs have in his lifetime
13:31:51 <tusho> :D
13:31:51 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
13:31:56 <tusho> i should write a script to do it
13:32:09 <AnMaster> you have that right!
13:32:14 <AnMaster> err... got that right
13:32:30 <AnMaster> ;P
13:32:36 <tusho> the universe just imploded
13:32:43 <tusho> AnMaster made a joke ... and it was funny :O
13:32:52 <tusho> haha :O looks funny on this font
13:32:53 <tusho> :O
13:33:04 <AnMaster> screenshot?
13:35:08 <tusho> AnMaster: maybe
13:36:14 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/1089636
13:36:18 <tusho> full karma plugin
13:36:21 <tusho> including Karma class
13:37:02 <AnMaster> tusho, for what irc bot?
13:37:06 <tusho> AnMaster: botte
13:37:13 <AnMaster> bring it online?
13:37:20 <AnMaster> tusho, also you know envbot can do that ;P
13:37:27 <ais523> I don't think e's finished writing the bot yet
13:37:29 <tusho> of course envbot can do it
13:37:30 <tusho> it's trivial
13:37:34 <ais523> tusho just spends ages thinking up syntax for it
13:37:40 <tusho> ais523: no, not really
13:37:44 <ais523> sort of like writing a spec for a language but not an interp
13:37:47 <tusho> it's kind of like weak BDD
13:38:05 <tusho> i'm writing an executable test case then I implement what is needed to make it operate
13:38:07 <tusho> it's bdd but lets me avoid learning bdd and be lazy :D
13:38:27 <ais523> tusho: have you ever come across UML?
13:38:28 <tusho> anyway
13:38:37 <tusho> the other examples I'd made in the past broke down on more complex stuffs
13:38:37 <tusho> so
13:38:40 <ais523> I think it's the most crazily complex programming language I've ever seen that isn't TC
13:38:40 <tusho> ais523: yes, unfortunately
13:38:47 <tusho> it isn't a programming language though.
13:38:51 <tusho> you CAN programmatically translate it
13:38:56 <tusho> but that's even crazier than uml itself
13:39:23 <ais523> well, I'm not sure whether it's a very unusual programming language, or a non-programming-language entity that is used for programming
13:39:29 <ais523> there are arguments to be made both ways
13:42:48 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
13:43:47 <tusho> AnMaster: http://img.skitch.com/20080801-t534mi4i68xk3xfpf73q6qmrn2.png
13:44:08 <AnMaster> ah yes it does
13:44:12 <AnMaster> why the different colour?
13:44:23 <tusho> AnMaster: this client displays smilies by giving them colours
13:44:27 <tusho> instead of awful images
13:44:35 <AnMaster> tusho, my client does neither
13:44:36 <AnMaster> :D
13:44:38 <ais523> I prefer text smilies
13:44:42 <AnMaster> just plain text
13:44:46 <AnMaster> I hate the images
13:44:47 <tusho> test :) :D >:) xD :<
13:44:50 <ais523> in Mibbit I click on all the smilies when they arrive to change them into text
13:45:03 <tusho> i prefer text smilies too but this effect is kinda neat
13:45:07 <ais523> on Konversation I just get the text though
13:45:08 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080801-p7psigy2ksgr8g9q16f643bwsx.png
13:45:26 <AnMaster> XD not xD
13:45:28 <AnMaster> IMO
13:45:32 <AnMaster> xD looks silly
13:45:50 <tusho> XD looks even more like a seizure than xD
13:46:06 <AnMaster> tusho, oh?
13:46:10 <tusho> yes
13:46:14 <tusho> look at it on its side
13:46:15 <AnMaster> blergh I can't get suspend to ram to work
13:46:41 <AnMaster> tusho, depends on font I guess
13:46:50 <AnMaster> Bitstream Vera Sans Mono here
13:47:30 <ais523> AnMaster: suspend to ram depends on which font you're using?
13:47:38 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080801-nu3ip2hiyjugrkbgxkaunx14uk.png
13:48:09 <AnMaster> ais523, no...
13:48:15 <AnMaster> ais523, unrelated discussions
13:48:26 <tusho> AnMaster: that was called a joke
13:48:44 <AnMaster> tusho, well my joke detector is very weak you know :P
13:48:46 <tusho> oh wow
13:48:51 <tusho> del.icio.us 2 just launched
13:49:05 <AnMaster> what?
13:49:17 <tusho> AnMaster: you know ... del.icio.us
13:49:28 <tusho> hmm, seems they're redirecting to delicious.com now
13:49:35 <AnMaster> yet another page like digg and so on right?
13:49:36 <tusho> the first widely-known domain pun finally gives it up!
13:49:39 <tusho> AnMaster: not really
13:49:44 <tusho> it's a bookmark site.
13:49:58 <tusho> that lets you use across computers, etc
13:50:05 <tusho> and it also tracks kind of diggy stuff like popular bookmarks right now
13:50:05 <ais523> incidentally, where does icio.us go?
13:50:09 <tusho> and tags of bookmarks and similar
13:50:15 <tusho> ais523: doesn't resolve
13:50:24 <ais523> that's ridiculous
13:50:28 <tusho> totally
13:50:33 <ais523> they bought an entire domain just to access one subdomain?
13:50:38 <ais523> they could rent the rest of it out...
13:50:44 <tusho> ais523: to be honest, their domain is del.icio.us
13:50:50 <tusho> they just had to do a hack to get that second dot
13:50:53 <tusho> anyway they use delicious.com now
13:50:57 <tusho> which is a shame, I liked that domain
13:52:11 * tusho wonders if he could murder the ephemera.org photographer and steal the domain
13:52:15 <tusho> (The murder is just for effect.)
13:52:29 <ais523> tusho: you'll have changed your mind about the domain name next week, though...
13:52:40 <tusho> ais523: why? :)
13:52:52 <ais523> I'm just extrapolating, I don't know the reason
13:53:13 <tusho> generally I'm so finnicky about domains that htey last a while
13:53:21 <tusho> it's the whole money thing.
13:54:34 <tusho> heh
13:54:39 <tusho> http://pla.net/ <-- secret site!
13:55:10 <ais523> tusho: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme seems to have been updated again
13:55:17 <tusho> ais523: ESMESMesmes!!ESME
13:55:31 <tusho> wow
13:55:39 <ais523> the more I look at that the more I'm convinced it's an elaborate trolling attempt
13:55:40 <ais523> but I'm not sure
13:55:53 <tusho> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=veebeewiki&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
13:56:09 <ais523> what did you turn up?
13:56:21 <tusho> http://forums.webwizguide.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=22809
13:56:24 <tusho> I'm making some ASP.net wiki software called "VeeBeeWiki", which is looking pretty good so far. It'll probably be ready for download in another month or two.
13:56:26 <tusho> probably a coincidence
13:56:32 <ais523> yes, probably
13:56:34 <tusho> i mean, 'vb'
13:56:36 <tusho> visual basic
13:56:37 <tusho> duh=
13:56:45 <ais523> yes, that's the conclusion I jumped to
13:56:47 <tusho> haha
13:56:49 <ais523> so why would it require Perl?
13:56:51 <tusho> he forgot to remove the shameful category
13:56:52 <tusho> brilliant
13:57:18 <ais523> s/(.*)i/$1/
14:04:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:06:30 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving").
14:07:01 <tusho> so, on the new subject of bad ideas: http://compilr.com/
14:07:51 <ais523> actually, I was thinking about something along those lines for INTERCAL
14:07:57 <ais523> a lot simpler though, upload source, download a binary
14:08:05 <tusho> well, ESO will have one for esolangs
14:08:07 <tusho> even so
14:08:09 <tusho> though
14:08:13 <tusho> it'll execute on _ESO's_ servers in our case
14:08:15 <ais523> or alternatively have it compiled into something that you could run over the Internet
14:08:19 <tusho> that is just stupid: you cannot trust the binaries
14:08:23 <tusho> to check them you have to have a compiler of your own
14:08:33 <ais523> well it depends on if you trust the sire
14:08:36 <ais523> s/sire/site/
14:08:42 <ais523> lots of people download and run random binaries
14:08:55 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should get C-INTERCAL to target JSMIPS somehow
14:09:03 <tusho> ais523: it can
14:09:07 <tusho> just compile the c ...
14:09:13 <ais523> yes, that's what I thought of doing
14:09:21 <ais523> the output may or may not need tweaking for the different OS
14:10:20 <tusho> ais523: seen https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448604?
14:10:24 <tusho> it's great
14:10:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> the more I look at that the more I'm convinced it's an elaborate trolling attempt <-- I'm pretty sure that is the case
14:10:44 <tusho> the mozilla team got trapped by a rockslide
14:10:48 <tusho> so they filed a bug report
14:10:54 <AnMaster> after all it is totally impossible to implement the language from it
14:10:57 <ais523> that is actually correct
14:11:04 <ais523> and one of the few uses of the 'blocker' severity
14:11:11 <tusho> ais523: anyway
14:11:11 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6udge/mozilla_team_trapped_by_rockslide_in_whistler/c04w6pt
14:11:14 <ais523> which means 'we literally cannot do any work until this bug is fixed'
14:11:21 <tusho> hilariously idiotic comment
14:11:23 <ais523> that's why it's so rare
14:11:25 <pikhq> Good lord...
14:11:40 <tusho> they can do work ais523
14:11:41 <pikhq> 'Compilr' seems like one of the most stupid ideas I've ever heard.
14:11:47 <tusho> they obviously have a computer and an internet connection
14:11:57 <pikhq> Wouldn't be useful for anything with more than 1 file, it seems.
14:11:58 <tusho> and therefore can check in commits just fine
14:12:02 <ais523> yes, I suppose so
14:12:07 <ais523> unless they're at a cybercafe, say
14:12:15 <ais523> without access to anything that can compile the source
14:12:19 <tusho> ais523: compilr!
14:12:32 <pikhq> Ah; it has a full IDE.
14:12:41 <pikhq> Which makes it even more awful, IMO.
14:12:59 <ais523> I still think there should be an option to upload source and download binary, just make it clear that this isn't particularly trustworthy
14:13:07 <ais523> also to upload source and download source in a different language
14:13:07 <pikhq> Emacs > IDE.
14:13:08 <pikhq> ;p
14:13:16 <ais523> POSIX > IDE.
14:13:28 <ais523> as long as you have at least one decent editor
14:13:49 <ais523> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448604#c35
14:13:52 <tusho> ais523: http://cm.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/emacs
14:14:01 <tusho> 'BUGS: Yes.'
14:14:12 <tusho> the vi(1) linked is also entirely unrelated
14:14:21 <AnMaster> ais523, what is Compilr?
14:14:26 <tusho> AnMaster: compilr.com
14:14:35 <ais523> AnMaster: from their FAQ, apparently an online compiler and IDE
14:14:45 <ais523> where you edit files Google Docs-style, then download the resulting executables
14:14:57 <ais523> "Vi simulates the execution of a MIPS binary in a Plan 9 environment."
14:15:05 <ais523> that'll really confuse people who expect it to be an editor...
14:15:08 -!- adu has joined.
14:15:16 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, ed > IDE.
14:15:17 <AnMaster> ais523, ehhehe?
14:15:19 <tusho> ais523: i don't think plan9 was intended to be an easy switch
14:15:35 <AnMaster> ais523, that site seems insane?
14:15:41 <tusho> AnMaster: of course it is
14:15:42 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
14:15:45 <ais523> AnMaster: tusho, pikhq and I are all on agreement with you on that
14:15:55 <pikhq> :)
14:16:01 * ais523 notices that tusho and I agreed on something again
14:16:08 <ais523> must... disagree... with... tusho...
14:16:12 <ais523> actually, it's a great idea!
14:16:13 <tusho> ais523: I disagree.
14:16:16 <tusho> Why can't we just agree?
14:16:17 <ais523> now all we need is a version for Linux
14:16:34 <AnMaster> it is stupid
14:16:38 <ais523> tusho: because it would be a Harbinger of the End of the World
14:16:41 <AnMaster> and yes I agree with tusho on that
14:16:48 <tusho> ais523: you missed my joke
14:16:58 <ais523> tusho: no, I noticed it, just ignored it
14:16:59 <pikhq> Personally, I think that the end of the world should come.
14:17:02 <ais523> because it's funnier that way
14:17:02 <tusho> *g*
14:17:11 <ais523> pikhq: actually, I reckon that the end of the world was years ago
14:17:15 <tusho> ais523: i agree, it is funnier that way
14:17:21 <pikhq> *shrug*
14:17:35 <ais523> tusho: ...
14:17:38 <pikhq> Today's xkcd? Brilliant.
14:17:55 * pikhq solves that Rubik's cube.
14:17:56 <ais523> pikhq: what's it about? I think xkcd's somewhat patchy, sometimes it's excellent and other times it's boring
14:18:06 <tusho> ais523: title: Frustration
14:18:09 <tusho> img: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/frustration.png
14:18:11 <tusho> title text:
14:18:19 <tusho> 'Don't worry, I can do it in under a minute.' 'Yes, I've noticed.'
14:18:24 * tusho = ircxkcdbot
14:18:28 <ais523> alt text?
14:18:35 <ais523> oh, the same thing
14:18:36 <pikhq> tusho: Hi, Bucket.
14:18:37 <ais523> sorry
14:18:48 <ais523> I'm confused by overexposure to IE during my formative years
14:19:08 <ais523> luckily I learnt mostly the right subset of JScript despite only having Microsoft docs to rely on
14:19:21 <ais523> and a quick search-and-replace was enough to sort out the uses of document.all that had crept into my code
14:19:31 <tusho> the final innovation on xkcd will be a comic without images
14:19:43 <tusho> just a big coloured space saying "Hover over to read the title text."
14:19:52 <ais523> what would the title text be?
14:20:36 <pikhq> An image.
14:20:38 <pikhq> :p
14:21:02 <ais523> ok, that would be classic if there was some way to get browsers to support it
14:21:04 <tusho> ais523: it'd change each time!
14:21:07 <tusho> but yes, that would be fun
14:21:12 <tusho> you could just do it as a JS tooltip
14:21:21 <ais523> I thought of that
14:21:21 <tusho> how about images and text
14:21:23 <tusho> like
14:21:23 <tusho> little icons for the characters
14:21:24 <ais523> but then people like me wouldn't be able to read it
14:21:39 <tusho> ais523: then the title text would be "Please enable JavaScript to experience Comic 2.0"
14:22:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> pikhq: what's it about? I think xkcd's somewhat patchy, sometimes it's excellent and other times it's boring <-- agreed
14:22:53 <AnMaster> userfriendly.org is quite a good comic btw
14:23:04 <pikhq> xkcd's sometimes patchy, but I find that it's always worth checking.
14:23:05 <tusho> userfriendly is awful
14:23:11 <tusho> really, truly awful
14:23:19 <tusho> same 15 jokes for over ten years
14:23:25 <tusho> and a third of them are funny
14:23:33 <pikhq> Userfriendly: sometimes funny, but typically mundane.
14:23:38 <pikhq> Still check it, though.
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14:24:35 <tusho> also you'd think he'd get better at drawing over 10 years
14:24:49 <tusho> but no, it's still awfully drawn with choppy lines
14:25:44 <pikhq> Ubersoft?
14:25:59 <tusho> Never heard of it.
14:26:09 <ais523> I've heard of it but can't remember what it is
14:26:21 <tusho> Seems to be Yet Another Tech Comic.
14:26:22 <tusho> Yawn.
14:27:39 <tusho> [[Endorsements / "Desperately Unfunny." / "The artwork is lame and repetitive, the 'jokes' are either inside software industry jokes or thinly disguised anti-capitalist rantings." / "Are there really 80 people who find any reference to Microsoft in a web comic funny?" / "Why has this been running since 1996? Who actually reads it? Who is the idiot who reads it every day and posts the 'good' ones up on reddit? Doesn't he realize he is wasting his time?"]]
14:27:47 <tusho> the best form of posting criticism on your site as if they're endorsements
14:27:50 <tusho> is when they're totally right.
14:30:46 <tusho> ais523: i've been thinking about copyleft
14:31:01 <ais523> interesting, what conclusions did you come to?
14:31:16 <tusho> i want people to have the right to restrict rights, but I don't want hippies to have the right to take away the rights mentioned in this sentence by using the GPL or similar
14:31:17 <tusho> :P
14:31:32 <tusho> i guess the only solution is a kind of pseudo-copyleft
14:31:39 * ais523 's head spins
14:32:01 * tusho follows ais523's head spinning with his eyes
14:32:03 <tusho> whe
14:32:06 <tusho> *whee
14:32:44 <ais523> the fundamental problem with all copyrighting schemes is that one person's right to do anything is incompatible with another person's right to do anything
14:32:53 <ais523> so you have to restrict something somewhere to avoid a contradiction
14:33:17 <tusho> ais523: but on the other hand I'm fine with people using my crap in commercial software
14:33:20 <tusho> and not releasing their modifications
14:33:28 <tusho> because I have given them the right to do that
14:34:18 <pikhq> tusho: I'm not.
14:34:27 <ais523> well, whether that should be allowable or not rather depends on the software, for instance something I'm doing at the moment is attempting to recompile the shareware GPL compiler I told you about a while ago to make it freeware again
14:34:27 <tusho> pikhq: and you are not me
14:34:36 <pikhq> Mostly because I think everyone should have the right to change whatever software is on their system.
14:34:44 <tusho> yes, I don't
14:34:44 <ais523> it's kind of complicated because the sources they gave don't obviously correspond to the binaries
14:34:50 <ais523> or at least the build system doesn't
14:34:51 <tusho> this is about my software and what I want it to be done with
14:35:01 <AnMaster> ais523, shareware gpl compiler?
14:35:03 <AnMaster> ais523, link?
14:35:03 <pikhq> Of course, this issue of what rights should apply to software is kinda complicated, since it seems kinda. . . Undecided.
14:35:20 <pikhq> ais523: Shareware GPL?
14:35:27 <ais523> AnMaster: there isn't a straightforward link to it, it's behind several links and ⁎⁡*⁕⁑⁢⁂⁎-protected entries on microchip.com
14:35:29 <tusho> I want to allow people to be able to, say, distribute my software commercially with modifications without releasing it. But I don't want people to be able to make changes under the GPL so that the people mentioned in the previous sentence can't do that, really.
14:35:34 <ais523> as in, you have to register an account to download it
14:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, tell us about it then
14:35:50 <AnMaster> ais523, what is it for?
14:35:50 <pikhq> tusho: Then you want the impossible.
14:36:01 <tusho> pikhq: No, that's actually pretty possible (I think)
14:36:04 <ais523> pikhq: AnMaster: basically a microcontroller manufacturer went and rewrote gcc to target their own product
14:36:06 <tusho> it'd just be very awkward wordin
14:36:06 <tusho> g
14:36:08 <tusho> and probably falwed
14:36:10 <tusho> *flawed
14:36:14 <ais523> then put a shareware restriction on it
14:36:16 <pikhq> Give me a non-copyleft license, and I can add copyleft to it.
14:36:16 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know what microchip is
14:36:22 <ais523> then released the resulting code and binaries under the GPL
14:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, don't they make the PIC*?
14:36:27 <ais523> the binaries being shareware
14:36:29 <ais523> AnMaster: that's it
14:36:35 <tusho> pikhq: Which is why I said it'd have to be pseudo-copyleft.
14:36:35 <AnMaster> I programmed PIC12F629 once
14:36:36 <AnMaster> in asm
14:36:44 <AnMaster> ais523, was fun writing the serial interrupt stuff
14:36:48 <pikhq> ais523: Contact the Software Freedom Law Center, please.
14:36:49 <ais523> AnMaster: so have I, except I normally use the PIC12F628
14:36:53 <pikhq> Oh, and the FSF.
14:36:53 <tusho> pikhq: it's legal
14:36:54 <ais523> pikhq: it's legal AFAICT
14:36:59 <pikhq> How?!?
14:37:03 <AnMaster> ais523, ah maybe it was 628, not sure, 62x anyway
14:37:04 <tusho> pikhq: You can sell GPL software.
14:37:05 <tusho> Didn't you know?
14:37:07 <pikhq> Yes.
14:37:10 <AnMaster> ais523, it was a few years ago
14:37:13 <ais523> because there's nothing to stop you editing out the sharewareness and recompiling
14:37:22 <ais523> except the fact that the build system doesn't work all that well
14:37:32 <pikhq> The sharewareness is in the source code itself?
14:37:35 <ais523> yep
14:37:36 <pikhq> Well, then.
14:37:40 <pikhq> That's stupid.
14:37:42 <ais523> it's even controlled by a #define
14:37:43 <pikhq> Legal, but stupid.
14:37:55 <ais523> atm I reverse-engineered it to simply fake a valid licence
14:38:01 <ais523> which is very easy with the source code installed
14:38:17 <ais523> but I'm not 100% sure that the result of that can be redistributed, so instead I want to recompile without the check for a licence
14:38:21 <AnMaster> ais523, which chip is that compiler for?
14:38:31 <ais523> the 16-bit dsPIC ranges
14:38:33 <tusho> pikhq: Out of curiosity. Say I had written some non-copyleft software (say BSD3 or MIT) and you made some big changes to it. Would you license your changes under the GPL or keep my license?
14:38:34 <AnMaster> ah
14:38:40 <AnMaster> ais523, those are DSPs?
14:38:44 <ais523> yes
14:38:53 <pikhq> tusho: I'd keep it under the BSD license.
14:39:00 <tusho> pikhq: Good, at least we agree there
14:39:10 <pikhq> I merely disagree that the BSD license is the *best* free software license...
14:39:15 <ais523> tusho: it would depend on what my changes were
14:39:28 <AnMaster> tusho, I would also keep current license, unless all I did was reuse, say. a 10 line function from you in an existing 2000 line GPL program
14:39:28 <pikhq> Which is by no means justification for a fork.
14:39:28 <tusho> ais523: Unless you were linking to a GPL'd library...
14:39:41 <ais523> tusho: or I was using your program as a library in a GPL program
14:39:44 <tusho> Of course.
14:39:47 <ais523> which is possibly even more likely
14:39:48 <AnMaster> tusho, but if I reused more than just a few lines I would keep your license
14:39:49 <tusho> But you know what I meant.
14:40:09 <ais523> tusho: I never assume that
14:40:11 <tusho> anyway, can we all agree on something else license-related: djb is pretty much an idiot regarding his position on licenses
14:40:18 <ais523> or never ought to anyway
14:40:19 <AnMaster> aye
14:40:21 <ais523> tusho: djb?
14:40:22 <AnMaster> tusho, he is
14:40:25 <tusho> ais523: daniel j bernstein
14:40:25 <pikhq> Changing the license, unless you have a *really* good reason for it, is just plain stupid, IMO.
14:40:30 <AnMaster> ais523, author of qmail and djbdns
14:40:31 <tusho> basically he doesn't provide a license
14:40:34 <tusho> just a copyright note
14:40:37 <tusho> and argues that you can still change it
14:40:42 <AnMaster> tusho, they are public domain now
14:40:47 <tusho> AnMaster: only some
14:40:55 <tusho> http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html <-- the specific idiocy
14:40:57 <AnMaster> tusho, qmail and djbdns are iirc
14:41:05 <AnMaster> tusho, which is all I use from him
14:41:14 <ais523> I think it might be interesting to write a license which was in fact an esoprogram
14:41:17 <ais523> but in lawyerspeak
14:41:21 <ais523> a sort of lawyer-IRP
14:41:38 <AnMaster> hahah :D
14:41:56 <tusho> jesus, this ubersoft comic sucks
14:42:08 <ais523> then why are you still reading it?
14:42:16 <tusho> ais523: it's amusingly bad
14:42:41 <pikhq> Did you start from the start or something?
14:42:51 <tusho> Yes.
14:42:54 <pikhq> Ah.
14:43:08 <pikhq> That was, IIRC, '95.
14:43:14 <tusho> 96.
14:43:18 <AnMaster> I read xkcd, userfriendly and http://www.darthsanddroids.net
14:43:20 <pikhq> I was a year off.
14:43:44 <AnMaster> I did read dm of the rings before it completed
14:44:42 <pikhq> I read xkcd, User Friendly, Ubersoft, Saturday Morning Breakfast Comics, Cyanide & Happiness, PvP, Ctrl-Alt-Del, If-Then-Else, Dresden Codak, Penny Arcade, Simulated Comic Product, GPF, and Subnormality.
14:45:00 * pikhq = webcomic fan. :p
14:45:11 <tusho> cyanide & happiness is probably one of the worst webcomics online today that is popular
14:45:24 <pikhq> (note: I only read Ctrl-Alt-Del out of morbid curiosity, not out of enjoyment now)
14:45:27 <AnMaster> tusho, I agree
14:45:32 <pikhq> tusho: CAD is worse.
14:45:37 <pikhq> By orders of magnitude.
14:45:43 <AnMaster> there is just one CAD I liked
14:45:48 <tusho> there are a few funny c&h, but not enough to warrant a whole comic
14:45:57 <AnMaster> the one with "call xxxx-not-l33t"
14:46:02 <AnMaster> if you know what one I mean
14:46:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is if-then-else?
14:46:32 <pikhq> ifthenelse.comicgen.com
14:46:38 <pikhq> Done by a friend of mine.
14:46:50 <tusho> I always wanted to make a comic about lifeforms in GoL
14:47:53 <pikhq> I also used to read Minus (before it stopped).
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14:56:22 <tusho> apache needs to be able to AddHandler a cgi
14:56:31 <tusho> (so that it gets the file as argv[1] of course)
14:57:01 <tusho> AddHandler /crazyformat-to-html .crazyformat
15:03:43 <pikhq> Argh; I also forgot to mention that I read VGcats.
15:04:00 <pikhq> (you know, the video game comic with an update schedule almost as bad as Dresden Codak's?)
15:04:21 <pikhq> Bleck; I read a lot of comics.
15:04:38 <pikhq> Every few minutes I think of another one that I read.
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15:30:50 <tusho> http://blog.last.fm/2008/08/01/quality-control
15:31:05 <tusho> bears!
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15:39:27 <pikhq> "DHS Allowed to Take Laptops Indefinitely"
15:39:53 <pikhq> Huh. There goes another amendment in the Bill of Rights.
15:40:54 <pikhq> All laptops going through the DHS should have all drives on them encrypted, IMO.
15:41:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is DHS?
15:41:34 <pikhq> Department of Homeland Security.
15:41:35 <tusho> AnMaster: department of homeland security
15:41:54 <ais523> oh for a moment I thought pikhq was referring to the parcel company
15:41:55 <tusho> True upholders of freedom.
15:42:08 <AnMaster> har
15:42:17 <pikhq> A more appropriate name is the Department of Searchs and Seizures Without Warrent.
15:42:17 <AnMaster> ais523, same here
15:42:24 <AnMaster> yeah
15:42:25 <pikhq> s/Warrent/Warrant/
15:42:26 <AnMaster> horrible
15:42:28 <tusho> pikhq: For Your Security.
15:42:36 <pikhq> Welcome to the police state.
15:42:49 <ais523> it's pointless anyway
15:42:51 <tusho> Not like the UK isn't going that way, either...
15:43:06 <AnMaster> same in Sweden too
15:43:09 <AnMaster> :(
15:43:10 <ais523> because anyone with valuable data can simply store it on a server somewhere and transport a blank laptop across the border
15:43:27 <ais523> then get the data back from the server over the Internet using scp or something like that
15:43:31 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah
15:43:43 <tusho> ais523: Logic? You must be a terrorist.
15:43:48 <tusho> I'm afraid we'll have to do a full body search.
15:44:01 <ais523> but that wouldn't turn up anything either
15:44:13 <ais523> besides the people with the biggest problems with this are apparently businesspeople
15:44:17 <tusho> Hmm.
15:44:20 <ais523> who often store trade secrets on their laptops
15:44:24 <tusho> That would be a strange porn plot.
15:44:35 <pikhq> Jebus.
15:44:46 <pikhq> The DHS can take 'anything that can hold analog or digital information'.
15:44:55 <tusho> pikhq: So, what, everything.
15:45:02 <pikhq> Everything.
15:45:10 <pikhq> Legally, they could even take your flesh.
15:45:22 <tusho> Okay, NOW it's a strange porn plot.
15:45:59 <AnMaster> tusho, huh? you are just 12 and shouldn't know about that ;P
15:46:08 <ais523> pikhq: or your brain
15:46:08 <tusho> Oh shut up AnMaster.
15:46:09 <pikhq> If only Amtrak were more usable.
15:46:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, Amtrak?
15:46:35 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak
15:46:36 <pikhq> The American passenger train system.
15:46:46 <pikhq> Which has like 3 lines that are actually useful...
15:46:47 <AnMaster> ah
15:46:51 <AnMaster> weird
15:47:12 <AnMaster> we got quite good trains here in Sweden
15:47:46 <pikhq> Basically, our train system and mass transit systems have been shut down by auto manufacturers and the Federal Highway Commission.
15:47:49 <tusho> AnMaster: HAVE
15:47:56 <AnMaster> tusho, sorry...
15:48:06 <tusho> :p
15:48:12 <pikhq> Basically, our country has been screwed over by our government.
15:48:23 <tusho> pikhq: Zomg!1111.
15:48:26 <AnMaster> Why didn't I *get* it right this time!
15:48:27 <tusho> Breaking news.
15:48:36 <tusho> AnMaster: ITYM '?'
15:48:40 <tusho> '!' denotes an exclamation.
15:48:45 <AnMaster> "ITYM"?
15:48:48 <tusho> I Think You Mean.
15:48:52 <AnMaster> tusho, ok should be !?
15:48:54 <AnMaster> or ?!
15:49:03 <tusho> AnMaster: or ‽
15:49:08 <ais523> <tusho> ITYM '?' <AnMaster> "ITYM"?
15:49:09 <AnMaster> err what is that?
15:49:17 <tusho> AnMaster: Interrobang.
15:49:21 <ais523> if only you'd used the same sort of quote mark...
15:49:22 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang
15:49:24 <AnMaster> tusho, err?
15:49:37 <AnMaster> looks like a fuzzy ? in this font
15:49:44 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang
15:49:48 <ais523> it's a cross between ? and !
15:54:26 <tusho> ais523: hmm
15:54:28 <tusho> should I keep the current
15:54:41 * ais523 waits for the end of the sentence
15:54:45 <tusho> plugin :name => "description" do
15:54:47 <tusho> author "foo"
15:54:50 <tusho> version "bar"
15:54:53 <tusho> command (ETC)
15:54:53 <tusho> end
15:54:55 <tusho> OR
15:55:00 <AnMaster> oh god
15:55:02 <tusho> should I remove the toplevel 'plugin' and do:
15:55:03 <AnMaster> just code it...
15:55:05 <tusho> name :name
15:55:09 <tusho> description "description"
15:55:09 <tusho> ...
15:55:11 <tusho> command (ETC)
15:55:19 <tusho> i mean, arguably the whole block is redundant
15:55:23 <AnMaster> tusho, one thing you *should* add is API version
15:55:27 <AnMaster> like plugin API
15:55:31 <tusho> AnMaster: no.
15:55:42 <AnMaster> so if you change it in future you can have backward/forward compatiblity
15:55:50 <AnMaster> compatibility
15:55:54 <tusho> AnMaster: no.
15:56:00 <AnMaster> tusho, why not+
15:56:04 <AnMaster> s/+/?/
15:56:07 <tusho> it's pointless
15:56:12 <AnMaster> tusho, why?
15:56:13 <tusho> whenever I change the api I change all the plugins
15:56:20 <tusho> and nobody else will write a plugin apart from maybe ais523.
15:56:28 <tusho> and even then it'll probably go in the repository
15:56:31 <tusho> and thus updated when the api does.
15:56:31 <AnMaster> tusho, I might, just to annoy you
15:56:36 <tusho> AnMaster: then I'll let it break.
15:56:50 <AnMaster> tusho, envbot interface plugin XD
15:59:01 <tusho> ais523: thoughts?
15:59:31 <ais523> tusho: invent an entirely different format for the plugins and then convert it into tusho-format-of-the-week with m4
15:59:36 <tusho> heh
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15:59:50 <tusho> I didn't offer a third option
15:59:51 <tusho> :)
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16:04:17 <tusho> hmm
16:04:23 <tusho> ff3.1a awesomebar has wildcards
16:04:25 <tusho> i want regexps
16:04:56 <ais523> I like the awesomebar actually
16:05:03 <tusho> yes
16:05:05 <ais523> some people don't because they type the start of the URL
16:05:06 <tusho> but I want regexps in it too
16:05:12 <tusho> instead of just wildcards
16:05:16 <ais523> but I've got used to being able to type slr and flr and get the appropriate pages
16:05:49 <AnMaster> awesomebar?
16:05:56 <tusho> AnMaster: firefox 3 location bar
16:06:06 <tusho> location/history/bookmark searcher all in one
16:06:08 <AnMaster> <ais523> some people don't because they type the start of the URL
16:06:15 <AnMaster> well I normally type or copy the url
16:06:20 <AnMaster> what do you mean then?
16:06:26 <ais523> if you type the whole URL it works the same way as all other browsers
16:06:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and if you type the start it tab completes I hope?
16:06:45 <ais523> but if you type a few letters, FF3 searches your bookmarks and the URLs and titles of recently visited websites
16:06:46 <AnMaster> if not I will hate it
16:06:49 <ais523> and it does tab-complete I think
16:06:55 <tusho> AnMaster
16:07:05 <AnMaster> if it works as in ff2 I will be happy
16:07:06 <ais523> yes it does, just tested
16:07:07 <tusho> AnMaster
16:07:11 <AnMaster> tusho, yes?
16:07:25 <tusho> AnMaster
16:07:30 <AnMaster> tusho, yes?
16:07:32 <AnMaster> .............
16:07:39 <ais523> many people think it's different from FF2, but in my experience I can do everything with it I could before, and more
16:08:06 -!- tusho has left (?).
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16:08:25 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
16:08:39 <ais523> tusho: ???
16:08:39 <AnMaster> wtf is up with tusho?
16:08:43 -!- tusho has joined.
16:08:47 <AnMaster> first weird highlights
16:08:50 <AnMaster> then odd part and quit
16:08:51 <AnMaster> wtf
16:08:57 <tusho> irc client fuckup
16:08:57 <ais523> it looked the same here too
16:08:59 <tusho> anyway
16:09:06 <tusho> AnMaster: it doesn't just complete on prefixes
16:09:23 <tusho> if you have a page titled Foo djsdfksdfsdf Baz in your history, and not anything else with thatm iddle word
16:09:26 <tusho> and you type that middle word
16:09:28 <tusho> and tab complete
16:09:31 <tusho> it'll fill in the url for that page
16:09:44 <tusho> also 'foo bar baz quux' would be matched by 'bar quux'
16:09:51 <AnMaster> I want it complete on urls
16:10:07 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, because inferior software is cooler
16:10:07 <AnMaster> oh btw I'm still of FF2.x
16:10:24 <tusho> it completes on urls too
16:10:32 <tusho> but it completes anywhere in the URL, not just the start
16:10:38 <tusho> and it also completes on page titles etc
16:11:14 <AnMaster> sigh, pointless features
16:11:18 <tusho> pointless?
16:11:19 <tusho> wtf
16:11:25 <AnMaster> firefox is just getting more and more bloated all the time
16:11:25 <ais523> I find it pretty useful
16:11:31 <tusho> yeah, I so love not being able to get to pages really quickly and easily
16:11:34 <ais523> but there really ought to be two firefoxes
16:11:38 <tusho> it's totally hardcore to go diggin for it
16:11:39 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
16:11:42 <ais523> one that's very stripped down, and one that's bloated
16:11:47 <AnMaster> ais523, good!
16:11:59 <tusho> because, you know what? I just love unusable software that can't find things quickly for me.
16:12:02 <AnMaster> ais523, or another idea
16:12:04 <tusho> Who cares about finding things? pffft.
16:12:06 <tusho> Pussies.
16:12:10 <ais523> then we can both be happy
16:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, what about a kernel like config?
16:12:24 <AnMaster> where you can select each feature
16:12:27 <AnMaster> as you want
16:12:36 <ais523> well, maybe they could do that with extensions
16:12:44 <ais523> have a very simple browser, and everything else is extensions
16:12:54 <AnMaster> good idea
16:12:58 <tusho> i love how AnMaster calls finding things quickly and easily "bloat", though
16:13:05 <tusho> i have your new browser AnMaster - I call it 'telnet'.
16:13:13 <tusho> It has absolutely no tools for finding things.
16:17:48 <AnMaster> tusho, it is not a useful feature to me, being able to select a word and google for it is however
16:18:02 <tusho> you cannot pass judgement on that until you try it
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17:06:45 <tusho> ais523: you'll be pleased to know that i'm implementing botte no
17:06:46 <tusho> w
17:06:54 <tusho> and sometime today I hope to have the link log up and running
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18:19:39 <tusho> ais523: do you think every handler should boil down to a regexp and a closure?
18:19:43 <tusho> it seems like the best, and easiest way to do it
18:19:55 <ais523> possibly, that's how bsmnt_bot did it
18:20:16 <tusho> it's how all of my bots have done it, really
18:24:08 <tusho> ais523: do you think it needs hooks for each part of the bot code (that is, [[yield_to_plugins :startup]] or whatever) or just handlers for irc stuff?
18:24:11 <tusho> I think the latter should be fine
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19:14:04 <tusho> meanwhile, I typo'd while typing "tpyos"
19:16:34 <tusho> yay
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21:01:16 <ihope> So, who's going to write the Proce interpreter? :-)
21:01:33 <lament> where's the spec?
21:01:53 <lament> and what does it do? generate sound?
21:02:04 <ihope> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Proce, I imagine.
21:02:15 <ihope> It can generate sound if you listen to one of the signals.
21:02:49 <lament> oh, i didn't realize it was an esolang
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21:04:25 <lament> mm
21:04:43 <lament> sin = i!(1 - i!sin)
21:04:52 <lament> something is horribly wrong about that definition.
21:05:16 <ihope> Be more specific.
21:05:23 <lament> i can't tell
21:06:39 <lament> how does it know the value of sin at 0?
21:13:27 <lament> i don't get how it works at all.. nor lowpass :(
21:13:44 <lament> shouldn't lowpass have a cutoff constant in it somewhere? where does it go?
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21:28:58 <lament> poke
21:29:12 <tusho> lament: poke
21:29:15 <tusho> ihope-ing
21:29:22 <ihope> Mm?
21:29:34 <lament> ihope: answer my multitudinous questions
21:29:46 <ihope> lament: it's a definite integral. At 0, it's the integral from 0 to 0, which tends to be 0.
21:29:54 <lament> with clarity, dignity and poise
21:30:25 <ihope> What's the definition of the low pass filter?
21:30:32 <ihope> The one on the page?
21:30:56 <lament> yes
21:31:03 <lament> low = i!(sig - low)
21:31:28 <ihope> This has a cutoff constant thing: low = k*i!(sig - low)
21:32:00 <ihope> Excuse me for a split second.
21:33:22 <lament> oh
21:33:26 <lament> i know nothing about dsp :(
21:33:42 <ihope> What's that?
21:33:52 <lament> digital signal processing?
21:34:02 <lament> so how would one, mm, implement this
21:34:13 <ihope> Oh. I thought digital signal processing was stuff like compression and digital error correction.
21:34:15 <lament> seems a bit tricky
21:34:40 <ihope> One would implement this using a floating point variable or so for every signal and every integral.
21:35:04 <ihope> If you differentiate something, use a variable for now and a variable for one step ago so that you'll be able to calculate the derivative.
21:35:19 <lament> if you just do that, all the errors would add up and it'd be all over the place.
21:35:34 <lament> (but on the plus side, it's easy)
21:35:41 <ihope> That's what error correction is for.
21:35:51 <lament> for error correction you need quite a bit more than that.
21:36:35 <SimonRC> maybe one can write a symbolic integrator for those restricted cases?
21:37:15 <lament> or simply have the interpreter go on the mathworld integrator website :)
21:37:28 <ihope> As the sampling rate approaches infinity, the interpreter will approach perfection.
21:37:54 <ihope> Assuming it uses arbitrary-precision floating points or something, which make things really ugly, in fact.
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21:38:15 <lament> yes, but sampling rate doesn't actually approach infinity.
21:38:29 <lament> this is solving differential equations
21:38:36 <ihope> 44100Hz is close enough to infinity that we can't hear the difference, at least.
21:38:48 <lament> ihope: for the first couple of seconds, at least
21:39:23 <lament> i had a course on just this subject, don't remember much already
21:39:28 <ihope> If you're going to write an actual program in this, you'll want to make small errors not matter anyway.
21:40:10 <ihope> I think you can make a signal that's -1 when another signal is negative, 1 when it's positive.
21:40:18 <lament> not sure how you'd use it for "progarmming"
21:40:50 <lament> seems more interesting for music generation...
21:41:09 <ihope> And things like pianos aren't fragile: the noise from air molecules hitting strings randomly doesn't cause them to make random horrible noise.
21:41:15 <lament> implementing a piano in this would be tricky :)
21:41:28 <ihope> Help me, then! :-)
21:42:18 <ihope> sin = i!(1 - i!sin) goes at 1 Hz. Make it go at 440.
21:43:01 <ihope> Actually, make that sin = i!i!sin, since we're probably going to pluck the integrals anyway.
21:43:31 <ihope> Unless you actually want to try to control it using one input signal.
21:44:10 <ihope> I like the challenge of that, actually. :-P
21:44:14 <lament> sin = i!i!sin = zero function
21:44:30 <ihope> Not if you set the integrals in the middle of execution.
21:44:58 <ihope> So let's have a "sndin" signal that functions as input. You hit a string by... being clever.
21:45:48 <ihope> I guess in real life, you don't play a piano by putting a speaker next to it and playing piano sounds into the speaker. You play it by pressing keys.
21:45:58 <ihope> So let's have a "key pressed" signal for every key.
21:47:21 <ihope> Damp each string or not based on whether the signal is 1 or not; pluck them based on the derivative of the signal.
21:48:53 <ihope> ...well, damp it a lot when the signal is 0, damp it a little when it's 1.
21:48:57 <lament> this is too complicated :)
21:49:03 <ihope> aivhi = i!i!aivhi and you have a string that vibrates at 1 Hz. We want it to vibrate at 440 Hz instead.
21:49:31 <ihope> aivhi = 440*400*i!i!aivhi?
21:49:50 <ihope> It is absolutely not too complicated. :-)
21:50:43 <AnMaster> oh?
21:50:45 <AnMaster> what are you doing?
21:50:52 <ihope> Writing a piano in Proce.
21:50:58 <AnMaster> Proce?
21:51:08 <ihope> My analog signal processing esolang.
21:51:31 <lament> ihope: making it sound like a piano mostly involves tweaking a lot and a lot of stuff, though.
21:51:33 <AnMaster> wow
21:51:34 <AnMaster> wtf
21:51:38 <AnMaster> ihope, got specs?
21:51:41 <AnMaster> I'd like to read them
21:51:45 <ihope> AnMaster: on the wiki.
21:52:02 <ihope> lament: indeed. That being the case, I don't want it to sound exactly like a piano. :-)
21:52:41 <lament> otherwise it's pretty boring
21:53:12 <lament> you create a bunch of frequencies, then you damp them with different profiles
21:53:37 <lament> not that i have any idea how to do any of that in Proce
21:55:02 <AnMaster> ihope, what functions exist
21:55:09 <AnMaster> the wiki page only mentions sin()
21:55:27 <AnMaster> ihope, and what are d! r! and i!?
21:55:29 <ihope> So, aivhi = 440*440*i!i!aivhi is a 440 Hz oscillator. We want it to resonate, so we add a constant times the "sound" signal, and we want it to damp, so we subtract a constant times its integral, I think.
21:56:03 <ihope> AnMaster: there are no functions in existence already; you have to define your own. d!, r! and i! differentiate, rectify (chop out all the negative bits) and integrate, respectively.
21:56:21 <AnMaster> ihope, so how is sin() defined?
21:56:26 <ihope> Recursively.
21:56:43 <AnMaster> ihope, is it part of the standard library ;P
21:57:05 <ihope> AnMaster: include it at the top of all your programs, if you want.
21:58:51 <AnMaster> heh
22:00:41 <ihope> I can think of a useful extension.
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22:03:30 <ihope> Definitions such as low(sig) = i!(sig - low(sig)), so that you don't need to define a new low-pass filter for every signal.
22:03:42 <ihope> And it'd be evaluated at compile time, so Don't Get Any Ideas.
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22:09:04 <ihope> I imagine a post-digital age, when artificial intelligence methods are used to simulate digital processing on analog machines.
22:09:20 <lament> starting tomorrow.
22:09:58 <SimonRC> ihope: sounds silly
22:10:08 <pikhq> ihope: Sounds infinitely recursive.
22:10:13 <SimonRC> analog systems are not known for being good at simulating digital ones
22:12:00 <tusho> ihope: I have a name for it. Shteam-schmeam-punk.
22:12:09 <tusho> Wait, no. Steam-schmeam-punk.
22:17:09 <lament> Schemepunk
22:17:55 <moozilla> hey all
22:18:39 <moozilla> i want to make an esolang based on the concept of emergence
22:18:56 <moozilla> but im not sure how i would do so
22:19:01 <ihope> SimonRC: isn't the universe pretty much analog anyway?
22:19:27 <SimonRC> and it is with extreme inefficiency that we get it to do digital things
22:19:38 <ihope> SimonRC: and that's why we should embrace the analogness of it all.
22:20:05 <SimonRC> that can be tricky
22:20:14 <SimonRC> depends on what you mean by "analogue"
22:20:22 <ihope> That's why we should use artificial intelligence to do it for us. :-)
22:20:25 <moozilla> not black/white
22:20:26 <lament> moozilla: you mean like game of life, or you mean like any language with functions in it?
22:20:48 <ihope> moozilla: sounds very difficult but very interesting. :-)
22:21:04 <ihope> Well, I guess things like Conway's Game of Life aren't "very difficult".
22:21:07 <moozilla> i mean any language
22:21:16 <moozilla> im not too familiar with the game of life
22:21:49 <moozilla> i'm envisioning something where there are symbols and the code 'emerges' from how they are laid out
22:23:12 * ihope nods gently
22:29:40 <lament> moozilla: sounds like programming
22:30:23 <moozilla> heh that was sort of an ambiguous way of putting it
22:31:09 <moozilla> my goal is to make the actual code the hardest to find thing
22:32:04 <ihope> You mean the "actual code" is hard to find given what you feed to the implementation?
22:32:14 <ihope> Or given what you want the program to do?
22:32:30 <lament> moozilla: sounds like programming in Brainfuck.
22:33:05 <moozilla> what the program actual does
22:33:10 <moozilla> actually*
22:33:32 <lament> have you looked at brainfuck... or, say, assembly?
22:33:37 <moozilla> yes :P
22:33:49 <moozilla> brainfuck is fairly obvious though
22:35:19 <moozilla> "In philosophy, systems theory and the sciences, emergence is the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions."
22:35:42 <ihope> Oh, I think I know what you mean.
22:35:50 <moozilla> i want the code to be the "side-effects"
22:35:55 <moozilla> if that makes sense
22:36:20 <ihope> The same way that in the Real World, life is a "side-effect" of the laws of physics?
22:36:30 <pikhq> Tricky.
22:36:42 <moozilla> ihope: exactly
22:37:05 <ihope> Excuse me for a moment while I tinker with scales.
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22:39:38 <SimonRC> ihope: well, excuse me while I scale with tinkers
22:41:20 <SimonRC> moozilla: Isn't that like looking for a way to get rid of fractions from a system of numbers that has a multiplicative inverse.
22:41:31 <SimonRC> or trying to invent a better sort of integer?
22:41:37 <moozilla> i'm not sure :P
22:41:48 <moozilla> it sounds like it'd be cool to me
22:42:10 <ihope> moozilla: I agree.
22:42:30 <moozilla> i just can't think of a way to implement it
22:46:51 * ihope continues calculating his scale
22:50:32 <ihope> It would be semi-tragic if Notepad were to crash right now.
22:50:50 <tusho> ihope: Ctrl-s
22:51:16 <ihope> Buena idea.
22:52:45 <lament> Buen.
22:53:16 <lament> oh wait, i'm wrong
22:53:18 <lament> buena.
22:54:48 <moozilla> Heh
22:54:49 <moozilla> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Primordial
22:54:59 <moozilla> this is sort of what i was thinking about
22:55:08 <ihope> The intervals from C, according to Scala: unison, septimal neutral second, major whole tone, septimal minor third, major third, perfect fourth, septimal tritone, perfect fifth, septimal minor sixth, major sixth, harmonic seventh, classic major seventh, octave.
22:55:35 <ihope> With septimal intervals for maximum harmonic content, of course.
22:56:10 <lament> moozilla: sounds like a more complicated version of game of life.
22:56:42 <moozilla> more complicated is always good :)
22:56:52 <ihope> Sounds like a zero-player version of Go, actually.
22:56:55 <lament> yes, but doesn't necessarily lead to any... emergent properties :)
22:57:18 <ihope> And we all know that a zero-player version of Go is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity.
22:58:51 <lament> zero player version of go sounds really boring
22:59:05 <lament> the game ends right away because there are no players who haven't passed!
23:00:21 <SimonRC> but you can't end there, as there is undecided territory
23:00:41 <lament> you can end at any time
23:00:59 <lament> and it's not undecided
23:01:07 <lament> it's dame
23:01:13 <lament> nobody's
23:02:43 <ihope> s/version/variant/
23:02:47 <ihope> Nitpicker :-P
23:04:50 <moozilla> that's a good idea
23:05:06 <moozilla> an esolang based on the game of Go
23:05:23 <ihope> Hmm. Turns out that in this scale of mine, all the black keys are flat to a significant degree except for CD, which is sharp by over half a semitone.
23:06:00 <ihope> Not to mention that it's a complicated 35/32 interval away from unison.
23:06:10 <lament> sounds painful to hear
23:06:42 <ihope> That particular note, yes.
23:07:44 <ihope> Luckily, it's the fourth key to be flattened, if you're flattening. It's the second key to be sharpened.
23:08:06 * ihope listens to major chords
23:08:34 <SimonRC> how are you doing that?
23:08:40 <ihope> Scala.
23:09:04 <lament> i knew that haskell wannabe was useful for something
23:09:22 <lament> by the way, tinkering with scales and tunings is for complete losers and nutjobs.
23:09:58 <ihope> All the major chords with white tonics sound pretty good, except for E, which has C#.
23:09:59 <tusho> and scala users
23:09:59 <tusho> oh wait
23:10:01 <tusho> I repeated myself
23:10:04 <tusho> no, wait
23:10:05 <tusho> I repeated lament
23:10:08 <ihope> :-P
23:10:23 <ihope> I think nobody uses Scala except people who tinker with scales and tunings.
23:10:29 <SimonRC> scala is more of an OCaml wannabe, surely?
23:10:52 <SimonRC> ihope: is that the FP-for-the-JVM one?
23:11:01 <ihope> SimonRC: I have no idea.
23:11:16 <tusho> SimonRC: yes it is
23:11:18 <tusho> oh wait
23:11:20 <ihope> You're not thinking I'm referring to a programming language called Scala, are you?
23:11:24 <tusho> ihope: yes, we were.
23:11:26 <SimonRC> yes
23:11:33 <lament> ihope: i wasn't, but i enjoyed confusing the rest of the channel.
23:11:40 <ihope> Muahaha.
23:11:43 <tusho> ouch
23:11:44 <tusho> :)
23:11:48 <tusho> well, my joke still works
23:11:49 <tusho> :D
23:14:15 <tusho> So ihope.
23:14:17 <tusho> Your interpreter.
23:14:22 <tusho> What audio file type does it generuut?
23:14:37 <ihope> tusho: I haven't written an interpreter.
23:14:43 <tusho> Write one.
23:15:05 <ihope> I have to finish tinkering, and then I have to think about this emergence thing.
23:16:02 * ihope listens to chords again
23:18:07 <moozilla> ihope: for the emergence thing there could be the visible program which does what it looks like it does, and then the side-effects of each function in that program. the results are the combined results of the two
23:28:43 <ihope> C major is perfect, G major is perfect, D major sounds perfect but isn't (perhaps listening to 19 equal temperament has destroyed my sense of tune), A major sounds terrible, E major sounds perfect, B major sounds perfect, F/G major sounds terrible, Db major sounds terrible, Ab major sounds terrible, Eb major sounds pretty good, Bb major sounds pretty good, F major is perfect.
23:29:02 <lament> you are a nutjob
23:29:18 <ihope> Three of the four terrible-sounding ones contain C/D.
23:30:25 <ihope> That is patently false, sir. I have never employed a nut in my entire life.
23:31:10 <tusho> ihope, you have crazy ears.
23:31:28 * tusho 's ears are terrible at distinguishing or recognizing all the different whatsits.
23:31:32 <lament> i think he's just crazy
23:31:35 <tusho> I can hear an awful lot of stuff, though.
23:31:42 <lament> people who tinker with tunings are crazy people
23:31:44 * ihope tries putting C/D a perfect fifth above F/G
23:32:46 <lament> crazy in the same sense that pseudo-math guys trying to square the circle are crazy
23:32:49 <lament> or the timecube guy
23:32:58 <lament> or this guy: http://members.aol.com/daharrell/
23:33:12 <lament> alternative tunings people are exactly the same kind of nutjob
23:35:41 <tusho> what does ai_wheel actually do btw
23:35:43 <tusho> I might try and run it
23:36:03 <tusho> it seems to use excel for its configuration files
23:36:07 <ihope> It's a simulation no more sophisticated than Creatures, I think, except that it has tools.
23:36:17 <tusho> Oh great.
23:36:34 <tusho> Norns that you can't look at, don't make any sound, and that aren't fun.
23:36:38 <tusho> What more could I want?
23:38:26 <ihope> It claims to be "the most powerful tool in the history of cognitive science", and it has very few Google hits.
23:38:47 * ihope gives it one more: WHEEL HARRELL AI
23:39:00 <lament> it's written by a complete nutjob. A crazy person. Somebody who is not sane. Just like people who come up with alternative tunings.
23:40:14 <ihope> Scala says, "Try setting C/D to 21/20."
23:41:16 <tusho> So:
23:41:19 <tusho> Voynich manuscript.
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23:41:23 <tusho> Discuss.
23:42:08 <ihope> Thank you; I'd forgotten the name of that thing.
23:42:48 <tusho> heh
23:43:01 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript & http://voynich.nu/ & http://inamidst.com/voynich/
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23:52:02 <KingOfKarlsruhe> wow lolcode interpreter in python :) YES http://www.dalkescientific.com/writings/diary/archive/2007/06/01/lolpython.html
23:52:47 <SimonRC> ew, LOLCODE
23:53:10 <tusho> KingOfKarlsruhe: very no
23:54:33 <SimonRC> the conlanging community has exactly the word for that kind of thing: relex
23:54:53 <SimonRC> it is a language that is created by changing the words of another language
23:55:31 <tusho> SimonRC: Also known as "the language you created when you were 5-7"
23:56:03 <SimonRC> not I
23:56:11 <SimonRC> I didn't conlang t that time
23:56:32 <tusho> SimonRC: Don't tell me you didn't invent a couple of words for english concepts.
23:56:39 <tusho> Everyone did that.
23:56:42 <SimonRC> not as far as I know
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23:57:41 * tusho shrugs
23:57:45 <tusho> So, Nullity.
23:57:46 <tusho> Discuss.
23:58:57 <ihope> Okay.
23:59:26 <ihope> It's a fancy way of saying "indeterminate".
23:59:44 <ihope> And not just a little bit indeterminate, but completely and utterly indeterminate.
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2008-08-02
00:00:40 <tusho> HERETIC. YOU WILL BURN IN NULLITY
00:00:47 <tusho> oh, hi oerjan the mathematician
00:00:49 <tusho> we're discussing nullity.
00:00:55 <SimonRC> it is an interesting extension to the reals
00:01:02 <tusho> SimonRC: no it's not :3
00:01:34 <oerjan> was that the one that was equal to itself or the one that wasn't?
00:01:36 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:01:36 <adu> i like the reals
00:01:46 <tusho> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Anderson_(computer_scientist)#Transreal_arithmetic
00:01:59 <adu> is that anything like hyperreals?
00:02:00 <ihope> oerjan: the one that is equal to itself.
00:02:39 <ihope> adu: real numbers plus... positive infinity, negative infinity, and nullity, I think it is.
00:02:48 <ihope> 1/0 = +infinity, -1/0 = -infinity, 0/0 = nullity.
00:03:11 <oerjan> right, it's the IEEE numbers which aren't
00:04:19 <adu> lololololol
00:04:33 <adu> "The report implied that Anderson had discovered the solution to division by zero, rather than simply attempting to formalize it."
00:04:52 <moozilla> anyone want to join my religion
00:04:59 <adu> moozilla: what is it?
00:05:10 <moozilla> we believe that the human race is part of an esoteric programming language created by some higher being
00:05:23 <moozilla> as an experiment
00:05:23 <adu> what does that require?
00:05:25 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:05:31 <ihope> I like it when people laugh out loud out linguistic out Larry out lol out lemma.
00:05:36 <moozilla> it requires that you do your part for the experiment
00:05:46 <moozilla> by doing what you normally would do
00:05:58 <moozilla> :P
00:06:01 <adu> uh
00:06:04 <adu> sounds lame
00:06:08 <moozilla> yeah
00:06:10 <moozilla> it is
00:06:12 <moozilla> i just made it up
00:06:29 <adu> I wouldn't subscribe to any organization that would have someone like me as a member
00:06:38 <moozilla> heh
00:06:55 <tusho> oh wow, adu paraphrased groucho marx
00:06:57 <tusho> ha ha ha ha ha.
00:07:06 <adu> :)
00:07:19 <adu> i thought it was mark twain
00:07:21 <adu> o well
00:08:47 <psygnisfive> lallallalllalalallallallalalalalllallallalalllallal
00:08:56 <adu> psygnisfive:
00:09:02 <psygnisfive> oklofok . . .
00:09:55 <oerjan> moozilla: we already did that experiment years ago. ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/39 (note slow)
00:10:01 <adu> IEEE forms a wheel
00:10:21 <adu> and transreal arith. forms a wheel
00:10:33 <adu> theres a whole subject called "wheel theory"
00:10:34 <adu> wow
00:10:35 <oerjan> adu: you've checked the axioms?
00:10:41 <adu> wha?
00:10:43 <oerjan> or someone did
00:10:53 <adu> no
00:10:59 <adu> its just at the bottom
00:11:05 <oerjan> there are axioms for wheels. i should know as i put them on the wiki page
00:11:12 <adu> oerjan: o
00:11:14 <adu> oerjan: nice
00:11:15 <lament> 1995, i wasn't even born yet
00:11:22 <lament> oerjan: for AI wheels?
00:11:32 <moozilla> oerjan: awesome
00:11:36 <adu> I wrote this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carleman_matrix
00:11:38 <oerjan> what are AI wheels?
00:11:50 <lament> oerjan: http://members.aol.com/daharrell/
00:12:44 <tusho> '1995, i wasn't even born yet'
00:12:46 <tusho> i was just born
00:12:47 <tusho> :P
00:13:21 <oerjan> lament: somehow i am not quite prepared to believe you
00:13:22 <SimonRC> wow, you're young
00:13:43 <oerjan> but then i barely believe tusho
00:13:53 <tusho> SimonRC: 12
00:13:54 <moozilla> 2008, i wasnt even born yet
00:14:02 <adu> i was 13 years old in 95
00:14:07 <SimonRC> bah
00:14:08 <oerjan> moozilla: ah, a fellow time traveller!
00:14:18 <moozilla> oerjan you've outed us!
00:14:21 <tusho> 13 in 20 days, though.
00:14:22 * SimonRC dislikes clever young peopole to the
00:14:25 <tusho> what a boring number, 13.
00:14:36 * SimonRC dislikes clever young people to the degree that he is envious of them
00:14:36 <tusho> 12 is a far more awesome number. it is made of awesome.
00:14:38 <adu> I once read a book by someone who lived in 2036
00:14:53 <SimonRC> adu: and?
00:14:53 <tusho> SimonRC: I cannot stand people as clever or more clever than me of a similar age
00:14:54 <moozilla> ah, but what number system is he using
00:14:59 <lament> i dislike clever young people
00:15:01 <lament> let's ban tusho!
00:15:03 <moozilla> it could be quadrinary
00:15:05 <tusho> lament: yes
00:15:07 <tusho> that asshole
00:15:27 <oerjan> moozilla: oops, better go back and change it
00:15:41 <moozilla> oerjan: too lazy atm, let's just enjoy ourselves
00:15:50 <SimonRC> how much I like people depends on how I get on with them
00:15:58 <SimonRC> (deliberate tautology)
00:16:06 <moozilla> i don't dislike clever young people since i was one once
00:16:36 <adu> SimonRC: ever since I've been trying to get access to CERN, which is where he said the beginnings of the time machine were being discovered
00:16:45 <SimonRC> heh
00:16:55 <moozilla> adu: which book?
00:17:25 <adu> http://www.amazon.com/John-Titor-Time-Travelers-Tale/dp/1591964369
00:17:32 <SimonRC> oh no not him again
00:17:57 <SimonRC> I don't beleive in "jumping" time travel.
00:18:10 <adu> he never jumped
00:18:15 <SimonRC> huh?
00:18:26 <adu> he just rode a gravity wave around for awhile, no jumping
00:18:47 <adu> like surfing
00:18:49 <SimonRC> um, gravity waves don't take you back in time
00:18:51 <adu> only theu time
00:19:10 <adu> then maybe theres a better word for it
00:19:22 <adu> I call it surfing gravity
00:19:28 <adu> call it what you want
00:19:30 <SimonRC> :rolleyes:
00:20:16 <adu> maybe other people would call it stabilizing the event horizon of a rotating massive singularity...
00:20:21 <adu> whatever
00:20:37 <moozilla> you know what pisses me off?
00:20:43 <adu> moozilla: what?
00:20:55 <moozilla> how in most movies/books about time travel they assume you can alter the past
00:21:01 <psygnisfive> are we talking about john titor?
00:21:07 <SimonRC> specifcally, I can only beleive that you can get back in time if the time machine exists at that time.
00:21:12 <moozilla> makes more sense to me that it would just split off a different timeline
00:21:34 <SimonRC> it makes most sense to me that the past and future would fit together perfectly
00:21:34 <psygnisfive> he didn't use a rotating singularity he's used a rotating cosmic string
00:21:39 <adu> moozilla: you should read John Titor's book, he dispells the granfather paradox
00:21:49 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:22:02 <moozilla> i'll look into it
00:22:02 <oerjan> moozilla: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurTimeTravelIsDifferent (warning, addictive website)
00:22:03 <SimonRC> the problem is, you can't get back to before the string starting rotating, or whatever it did
00:22:23 <tusho> http://qntm.org/?models
00:22:25 <tusho> conversation over
00:22:33 <moozilla> SimonRC: alright, but is it possible to travel forward
00:22:35 <psygnisfive> simonrc: ofcourse, but he didn't use a string machine built by humans
00:22:44 <SimonRC> oerjan: just a slight understatement in the warning
00:22:49 <psygnisfive> he used one discovered in M31
00:22:59 <adu> moozilla: he basically says that his time machine is a piece of sh*t, so anytime you go back with it, you're not going to your own past, but an alternate past, so you can kill the guy who looks like your grandfather, because he's not
00:23:03 <SimonRC> moozilla: yes, see futurama, S1, E1
00:23:19 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: that is fine
00:23:23 <oerjan> SimonRC: hey this time i actually told what the danger was :D
00:23:41 <tusho> tvtropes is basically as addictive as everything2 to me
00:23:54 <tusho> in that I open like 10 pages in tabs for each one page I read
00:24:00 <tusho> and then click another one, etc, until I come to a dead end
00:24:01 <tusho> close that tab
00:24:04 <tusho> and move onto the first opened tab
00:24:07 <tusho> etc, ad infinitum
00:24:10 <SimonRC> imagine a road from NY to Washington DC...
00:24:33 <SimonRC> the road does not "travel" from one place to another, it *extends* from one place to another
00:24:41 <SimonRC> tusho: yup
00:24:55 <SimonRC> tusho: its a cyclic tab machine
00:24:59 <SimonRC> *rimshot*
00:25:04 <tusho> that was awful
00:25:09 <tusho> i wonder if it's TC
00:25:09 <tusho> :D
00:25:23 <psygnisfive> time travel allows hypercomputation.
00:25:23 <tusho> hmm the way I stated it was wrong
00:25:40 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: that may be a good reason to disbeleive in it
00:25:52 <ihope> I considered a time travel gate in quantum mechanics, you know. It returns the value that you will put into it.
00:25:53 <tusho> go to article 1 -> click click click loads of tabs in the background -> read all of it, click an interesting link on article 1 -> (repeat) -> dead end, no more links. close tab, move onto the next one, repeat until no more tabs (note: this never happens)
00:26:04 <pikhq> Time travel makes the Infinity Machine trivial to implement, really.
00:26:18 <SimonRC> Primer is a good movie and avoids some types of bad time travel: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Primer
00:26:31 <ihope> I realized that it could be used to store practically infinite amounts of data, and retrieve arbitrary practically unremarkable amounts of it.
00:26:32 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: modulo reliability
00:26:43 <ihope> I later realized it could be used to control the universe.
00:26:51 <psygnisfive> i didnt like Primer
00:27:06 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: did you watch it on DVD?
00:27:12 <psygnisfive> dont remember
00:27:15 <pikhq> ihope: Ever read the description of the Infinity Machine?
00:27:15 <psygnisfive> all i know is, i didnt like it
00:27:18 <ihope> pikhq: nope.
00:27:33 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
00:27:37 <SimonRC> I recommend other people get it on DVD, and watch the confusing bits repeatedly
00:27:47 <SimonRC> then read the explanation threads on the forums
00:27:49 <pikhq> The description of a machine which can store an infinite amount of data and do computations infinitely fast.
00:27:51 <SimonRC> then watch it some more
00:27:52 <adu> ihope: wow
00:28:00 <SimonRC> then you might understand most of it
00:28:01 <psygnisfive> i didnt find it confusing, simonrc
00:28:04 <psygnisfive> i just found it boring
00:28:05 <lament> pikhq: cool, where can i buy it?
00:28:09 <adu> ihope: can you explain that in more detail?
00:28:10 <oerjan> ihope: i vaguely recall someone did calculations with faster-than-light particles (tachyons) and QM, and found out the quantum mechanics cancel out the time travel effects - information ends up only going forward, slower than light
00:28:11 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: hm :-S
00:28:16 <pikhq> lament: It's hypothetical.
00:28:22 <ihope> Take a qubit from the time gate. CNOT it with a target qubit. Put it back in the time gate.
00:28:26 <lament> oh :(
00:28:30 <pikhq> More so than, say, a Turing Machine.
00:28:30 <SimonRC> oerjan: how does one tell which way the information is going
00:28:42 <ihope> This is consistent if and only if the target qubit is 0; therefore, it selects the possible quantum states where the target qubit is 0.
00:29:06 <psygnisfive> one model of quantum mechanics says that particles travel forward and backward in time constantly
00:29:31 <psygnisfive> antiparticles, for instance, can be see as the normal particles moving backwards through time
00:29:37 <ihope> So you could control the universe by taking camera input and selecting the possible quantum states where it's a certain image. Of course, this could just control internal error rather than external happenings.
00:29:53 <ihope> It's easy to make a cellular automaton where things move backwards in time.
00:29:58 <psygnisfive> and some models of how things like wave function collapse occur involve messenger particles travelling backwards through time
00:30:04 <SimonRC> ihope: a bugger to implement
00:30:06 <adu> what was that one time travel movie with the original superman actor?
00:30:06 <moozilla> i loved the movie primer
00:30:22 <ihope> SimonRC: use Mirek's Cellebration.
00:30:27 <SimonRC> moozilla: the model is unsucky in uncommon ways
00:30:44 <moozilla> yeah
00:30:50 <SimonRC> ihope: why doesn't simulating it require a superturing computer?
00:30:50 <moozilla> i liked the looping thing
00:31:03 <oerjan> SimonRC: well i guess it prevents any effects that could be used to send information backwards in practice, like the usual theory for why you cannot use entanglement to send information faster than light
00:32:02 <SimonRC> [Author's note: the primer model is that when the time machine turns on, your future self gets out, and in the future, you get in just as you turn the machine off.]
00:32:17 <SimonRC> oerjan: ok
00:32:19 <tusho> SimonRC: What if you turn it on and don't get in?
00:32:27 <tusho> Nothing happens?
00:32:36 <SimonRC> tusho: ah, well the timeline branches
00:32:47 <tusho> SimonRC: Or: What if you turn it on, someone comes out, and then you don't go in?
00:32:51 <oerjan> otoh i have this vague idea that maybe the strange properties of quantum mechanics are _because_ particles time travel all the time (but with this kind of censorship rule to cancel out the worst effects)
00:32:54 <tusho> Pime taradox?
00:32:58 <SimonRC> the problem with branchin timelines is that you end up with too many Hitler-assassins
00:33:18 <oerjan> oh psygnisfive already mentioned something similar
00:33:50 <adu> "Somewhere in Time"
00:33:50 <oerjan> except i thought maybe the time travel could be the cause of the other weirdness
00:33:56 <SimonRC> every time traveller causes a branch, and each of those will branch a few times before the assassin sets off, so you always end up with more assassins than you have assasins
00:33:58 <adu> gtg
00:34:01 <SimonRC> unless there are 0 of them
00:34:01 -!- adu has quit.
00:35:02 <tusho> anyway
00:35:05 <tusho> I have my own pet time travel theory
00:35:17 <tusho> you know the regular 'you can go back, change something, return and it's all changed?'
00:35:27 <tusho> and how it requires YOU to have your own personal timeline to experience that happening?
00:35:37 <tusho> well, the idea is simple: everything has an infinite stack of timelines.
00:35:47 <SimonRC> wait, is this the one where the split timeline has a second you?
00:36:25 <SimonRC> tusho: why doesn't that have the infinite-Hitler-assassins problem?
00:36:39 <tusho> SimonRC: the idea is
00:36:41 <tusho> you experience this:
00:36:47 <tusho> go into a time machine, change shit, go back, everything's different
00:36:53 <tusho> but if you rewrote time, you'd never go in the time machine!
00:37:00 <tusho> so you must have your own personal timeline where in the past you went in the time machine
00:37:07 <moozilla> i have a similar theory
00:37:08 <tusho> my idea is that that timeline then has a timeline
00:37:10 <tusho> and so on to infinity
00:37:15 <tusho> and every particle has it
00:37:20 <tusho> instead of every conscience or whateve
00:37:20 <tusho> r
00:37:30 <moozilla> i believe there are infinite timelines
00:37:43 <moozilla> when you travel back it must be on a different timeline
00:37:46 <lament> that loop inward on each other like a giant wheel
00:37:56 <moozilla> however it would be nearly impossible to come back to the same timeline
00:38:06 <tusho> moozilla: that's a common theory.
00:38:07 <moozilla> which is why we never see time travelers
00:38:10 <tusho> it's also less interesting than mine
00:38:23 <tusho> which allows the typical fiction of omg you killed hitler everything is different
00:38:28 <tusho> while still actually being consistent
00:38:34 <oerjan> there is also the theory that says that time travel will keep changing the past until time travel ends up never being invented
00:38:36 <moozilla> i dont see why everyone would have to have their own timeline
00:38:38 <SimonRC> moozilla: that requires discrete CTCs, not continuous ones... kinda
00:38:43 <moozilla> CTC?
00:38:49 <tusho> bye for today
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00:39:11 <SimonRC> I mean, that the time machines jumps from past to future, rather than being a journey that one walks to go into the past
00:39:38 <SimonRC> the former has a point where the time traveller "arrives" from the future
00:39:39 <moozilla> ah right
00:39:53 <SimonRC> the latter has a continuous stream of air and stuff arriving from the future
00:39:55 <moozilla> i havent really theorized on HOW time travel would be accomplished
00:40:02 <moozilla> more on just the nature of time
00:40:18 <moozilla> one of my ideas is that
00:40:22 <SimonRC> well, I don't beleive in a direction of fundamental causality
00:40:45 <SimonRC> so any model that is time-assymetric is suspicious
00:40:46 <moozilla> a sort of version of quantum entanglement
00:41:03 <moozilla> where particles are entangled with particles from a different time
00:41:30 <moozilla> my understanding of entanglement is cloudy so that might be what it already is
00:41:35 <SimonRC> you can't transmit information via entanglement surely?
00:41:47 <moozilla> not intentionally
00:42:12 <moozilla> but in this model all "randomness" is essentially input from a different time
00:42:39 <oerjan> SimonRC: a recent Scientific American wrote about a new theory of quantum gravity that worked better precisely by including a direction of causality in the basics
00:42:47 <ihope> SimonRC: because it's reversible.
00:43:28 <oerjan> although it was probably still time-symmetric mathematically
00:43:53 <oerjan> (since you could just reverse all arrows)
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01:00:11 -!- Judofyr has joined.
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01:05:52 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/aliases.html
01:05:59 <pikhq> Holy shit...
01:07:53 <pikhq> So. Very. Evil.
01:25:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:27:38 * SimonRC goes to bed.
01:28:45 <lament> bash is hairy, why am i not surprised :(
01:28:56 <lament> would be nice if bash were finally replaced by something nice
01:29:05 <lament> unfortunately the only alternative is Windows PowerShell :)
01:32:25 <pikhq> Bullshit.
01:32:30 <pikhq> Zsh.
01:32:32 <pikhq> :D
01:32:50 <ihope> Couldn't you use ash or bsh or csh or dsh or esh or fsh or gsh ot hsh or ish or jsh or ksh or lsh or msh or nsh or osh or psh or qsh or rsh or ssh or tsh or ush or vsh or wsh or xsh or ysh or zsh?
01:33:03 <ihope> Actually, using ssh as a shell is probably a bad idea.
01:33:24 <pikhq> As is using rsh.
01:33:43 <pikhq> And you'll find yourself hating ash and csh.
01:34:03 <lament> pikhq: i said something nice, not a sh-based shell
01:34:16 <ihope> Yeah, rsh is also kind of bad.
01:34:27 <ihope> I imagine GHCi is not the worst of shells.
01:34:35 <pikhq> lament: Zsh isn't sh-based.
01:34:44 <pikhq> No more than Emacs is Vi-based. :p
01:35:23 <lament> well, it's close enough :)
01:35:28 <ihope> I should learn emacs.
01:35:41 <ihope> The only reason I use vi is that I know how it works.
01:35:48 <lament> all these shell have decades of backwards-compatibility cruft in them
01:35:58 <ihope> Press i and boom, Notepad! And then you have fancy commands like c5l.
01:36:13 <ihope> :wq to save and exit, :q! to exit without saving...
01:38:27 <pikhq> The Z shell has a ridiculous amount of features, BTW...
01:38:36 <lament> of coures
01:38:39 <lament> so does bash
01:38:47 <pikhq> "Because zsh contains many features, the zsh manual has been split into a number of sections:"
01:39:23 <lament> when a program contains a ridiculous amount of features, the features will start interacting in curious and unexpected ways
01:39:28 <lament> like functions and aliases :)
01:41:58 <pikhq> Its emulation of other shells is enabled by runtime configuration options.
01:42:14 <lament> haha
01:42:34 <pikhq> The Z shell is basically the Emacs of shells.
01:43:38 <ihope> Hmm, I just realized that I haven't actually designed that artificial intelligence language. I should do so.
01:44:24 <ihope> I now further realize that my idea for the language so far has no room for analog signal processing.
01:46:02 * oerjan sort of expected emacs to be the emacs of shells
01:46:38 * ihope rectifies oerjan for using "/me" as a substitute for "I"
01:47:03 * oerjan refuses to be rectified
01:47:24 * oerjan are not amused
01:47:33 * ihope attempts to make oerjan say something outside of a /me
01:47:55 * oerjan laughs at ihope's pitiful tries
01:49:46 * oerjan wonders if there is a way to have his irc client translate i to /me automatically. it would need to do something about verb inflection, also.
01:51:25 * oerjan reverses the polarity
01:52:06 <oerjan> *jumps up and down*
01:52:26 <oerjan> *cackles evilly*
01:59:01 <moozilla> what irc client?
01:59:11 <moozilla> fairly sure its simple to do with something like mIRC
01:59:19 * oerjan utilizes irssi
02:00:36 * oerjan would probably not actually endeavor to utilize a solution, if one were to be presented.
02:00:59 * oerjan also is somewhat a fan of Varsuuvius from OOTS
02:01:37 * moozilla is usually too lazy to type /me
02:44:02 <pikhq> oerjan: You know, Zsh *has an editor*.
02:44:27 <oerjan> ah.
02:44:50 <pikhq> And a tetris implementation.
02:45:03 <oerjan> what about an irc client?
02:45:09 <pikhq> No.
02:45:15 <pikhq> But it does have an FTP client.
02:45:45 <oerjan> it does sound ... promising
02:45:54 <pikhq> And since it has builtin handling of network I/O, one could probably write an IRC client for it trivially.
02:55:13 <ihope> I want to write a Proce-to-electronics compiler.
02:56:55 <pikhq> Oh, it also tends to byte-compile shell functions.
02:57:14 <psygnisfive> tusho, you here?
02:58:18 <oerjan> <01:38 tusho> bye for today
02:58:49 <oerjan> (now 03:58)
03:05:43 <psygnisfive> lametusho
03:05:54 <psygnisfive> anyone here use a mac? or know ruby?
03:05:55 <ihope> Memo him.
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03:11:09 <Sgeo> Hi futilius
03:11:14 <futilius> hey
03:17:38 <CakeProphet> I'm vaguely familiar with Ruby
03:17:38 <CakeProphet> don't use it a lot though
03:18:18 <futilius> is that an esoteric satire of perl?
03:20:27 <psygnisfive> cakeprophet: PMs.
03:20:41 <ihope> Ello.
03:21:10 <ihope> Are you familiar with functional programming? I think Unlambda is what introduced me to it. :-)
03:22:11 <psygnisfive> futilius: Ruby is far from esoteric
03:24:05 <oerjan> RUBE on the other hand
03:27:17 <pikhq> I disagree. Ruby damned well should be esoteric.
03:27:17 <pikhq> :p
03:27:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
03:27:24 <psygnisfive> why?
03:27:27 <pikhq> oerjan: RUBE is just plain brilliant, of course.
03:27:32 <psygnisfive> do you know ruby at all btw?
03:27:39 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Because I don't like it, and what I don't like is esoteric.
03:27:40 <pikhq> :p
03:27:48 <psygnisfive> why dont you like it
03:28:00 <pikhq> Honestly, it's not that bad of a language. . .
03:28:10 <psygnisfive> i take it you know it then
03:28:15 <psygnisfive> wanna work on a project together?
03:28:42 <pikhq> I just don't like its little 'object oriented *everywhere*' shit and its syntax isn't something I'm all to fond of.
03:29:39 <lament> ruby is suck.
03:29:42 <lament> python is suck.
03:29:48 <pikhq> Tcl is win.
03:29:51 <lament> both are good enough, though.
03:29:56 <lament> i don't think tcl is good enough.
03:30:14 <pikhq> How familiar are you with Tcl?
03:30:18 <lament> not very.
03:30:20 <psygnisfive> i dislike tcl
03:30:24 <psygnisfive> it seems disjointed
03:30:28 <lament> i know that everything is a string in it.
03:30:45 <pikhq> I especially enjoy doing radical language modification in it.
03:30:49 <lament> a language based on such an idiotic premise can't be very good.
03:30:57 <pikhq> (that, BTW, was the implementation technique for PEBBLE)
03:31:00 <ihope> Quantum Proce is the future!
03:31:49 <pikhq> BTW, typically in Tcl implementations, not everything is a string. . .
03:31:55 <pikhq> Everything just has a string representation.
03:32:53 <psygnisfive> pikhq: pms.
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04:42:59 * ihope attempts to find what tusho said about returning to rootnomic
04:43:22 <ihope> I remember one of the conditions was a sane proposal system.
04:44:21 <ihope> The other... wasn't a justice system, surely. adduser proposals?
04:44:52 <ihope> I suppose he's gone with the "long life" approach. And with that, it's bedtime, so good night, ding ding ding, etc.
04:45:46 <pikhq> Night.
04:51:12 <ihope> (Archytas' 1/3-tone, minor semitone, minor diatonic semitone, major diatonic semitone, minor whole tone, middle second, major whole tone, septimal whole tone...)
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04:59:44 <pikhq> That's just a terrible description of the LotR: "Frodo and friends go on a quest to *find* a magic ring."
04:59:54 <Sgeo> oO where?
04:59:54 * pikhq mutters about bad newspaper reporting.
05:00:11 <pikhq> Reading tvtropes.
05:00:13 <pikhq> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CowboyBebopAtHisComputer
05:00:57 <moozilla> that is a bad description
05:01:21 <moozilla> how about "halfing and crew go on epic quest to destroy a mystical ring"
05:03:57 <pikhq> See, that would be accurate.
05:04:09 <pikhq> Except s/halfing/hobbit/
05:04:10 <pikhq> :p
05:04:21 <pikhq> This is Arda, not D&D.
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05:06:40 <moozilla> I'm pretty sure they use "halfing" in the LoTR books
05:06:51 <moozilla> halfing and hobbit are interchangable afaik
05:07:41 <pikhq> Not that I recall.
05:07:52 <pikhq> Though it has been a while since I read LotR.
05:07:56 <moozilla> same
05:42:04 <oklofok> 00:54… ihope: The intervals from C, according to Scala: unison, septimal neutral second, major whole tone, septimal minor third, major third, perfect fourth, septimal tritone, perfect fifth, septimal minor sixth, major sixth, harmonic seventh, classic major seventh, octave. <<< this is just latin for 0-12
05:42:09 <oklofok> hmm
05:42:12 <oklofok> ihope isn't here
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06:04:20 <oklofok> awesome, logs ended!
06:04:35 <oklofok> i have my own theory about time travel too
06:04:39 <oklofok> it's fucking bullcrap
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06:11:41 <psygnisfive> oklofok
06:11:47 <psygnisfive> i want to have your babies
06:14:18 <oklofok> <3
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06:21:35 <psygnisfive> oklofok, do you know any ruby?
06:33:08 <oklofok> i've made a bot in it
06:33:34 <oklofok> i'm leaving for 5 days in 3 hours
06:33:49 <oklofok> so if anyone else wants my babies, time is running out.
06:41:12 <oklofok> oh btw, as i like promoting things everyone else hates, i've had this computer about 4 months or something, i don't think vista has crashed *once* so that i'd had to reboot.
06:41:47 <oklofok> vista <3
06:42:29 <oklofok> but oh god this is a crappy system, i just spent ages trying to save a file in adobe reader, the reason i couldn't was that the window limit was already full, so i couldn't open to save window :D
06:42:59 <oklofok> but there's no message, window creation just silently errors out :-)
06:48:19 <oklofok> i'd understand like a limit of a million windows
06:48:30 <oklofok> but i have only like a hundred open
06:48:48 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
07:18:45 <oklopol> well aren't you a quiet bunch
07:22:43 <CakeProphet> ...
07:22:49 <CakeProphet> I am trying to figure out
07:22:53 <CakeProphet> how unions could be useful.
07:22:58 <CakeProphet> (of the C variety)
07:24:35 <CakeProphet> ...oh lawl... I see.
07:25:51 <psygnisfive> oklopol
07:25:53 <psygnisfive> where are you going?
07:29:59 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm a scout :-)
07:30:03 <oklopol> scouting things
07:30:22 <psygnisfive> you're a scout?
07:30:25 <psygnisfive> like a boyscout?
07:30:32 <oklopol> right ya
07:32:53 <oklopol> o
07:33:14 <oklopol> i'll do some going now, although i may still return in a few hours ->
07:34:49 <CakeProphet> hmmm... it's kind of lame that C unions require you to point to names.
07:34:55 <CakeProphet> isntead of just like
07:35:02 <oklopol> oh unions.
07:35:05 <oklopol> i read onions
07:35:27 <CakeProphet> union {int; char *;} var;
07:35:30 <CakeProphet> var = "lol";
07:35:35 <oklopol> thought that was some complex C term for some kind of inheritance
07:35:36 <CakeProphet> var = 0;
07:35:38 <CakeProphet> ...
07:35:38 <oklopol> you know, layers and shit
07:35:42 <CakeProphet> rofl
07:35:57 <oklopol> :))))))
07:35:58 <oklopol> ->
07:38:14 <CakeProphet> is there some way in C to like... write functions for structs that have similar attributes.
07:38:24 <CakeProphet> so I don't have to, for example, write the same linked list code for like 4 billion different things.
07:42:47 <psygnisfive> oklopol, i demand photos of you in boyscout uniform
07:42:54 <psygnisfive> especially if you have to wear really short shorts
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08:21:28 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
08:21:33 <psygnisfive> you! short shorts! now!
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08:26:32 <Marc56435345> Hola a todos.
08:26:54 <Marc56435345> Soy el bot 45688FDS1-87
08:27:16 <Marc56435345> CONEXIN INICIALIZADA - AO 2089
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08:38:22 <oklopol> CakeProphet: yeah it's called use a real language
08:38:53 <CakeProphet> rofl, yeah.
08:39:25 <oklopol> i don't get all this praising c as the portable assembly, it's a retarded language, that's all it is.
08:42:09 <oklopol> anyway C has pointers
08:42:22 <oklopol> so it's easy to make a generic linked list thingie
08:42:30 <oklopol> thinguloid in this case ofc
09:01:04 <oklopol> psygnisfive: were egobot here, i could perhaps give you a 1% chance of getting pics for sparse requests.
09:01:25 <oklopol> but, anyways, bye ->
09:12:42 <CakeProphet> ...I'm assuming he meant like void pointers or something.
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11:56:05 <Tritonio_> hello
11:56:59 <tusho> hi
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12:56:07 <KingOfKarlsruhe> thats cool python :) http://paste.pocoo.org/show/81013/
12:57:24 <tusho> no
12:57:27 <tusho> lolcode is a travesty
12:57:30 <tusho> this "lolpython" is a travesty
12:57:36 <tusho> and liking it is a travesty
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14:18:42 * tusho makes notes of possible domain alts to ephemera.org which is taken: pentagenia.org
14:20:00 <AnMaster> hm
14:20:17 * AnMaster decides to *not* register it
14:20:35 <tusho> AnMaster: i do believe you want to be an eso member
14:20:42 <tusho> (that there was a threat :) )
14:20:44 <AnMaster> tusho, haha
14:21:05 <AnMaster> as it costs money I would never do it anyway
14:21:23 <tusho> anyhoo, it's a genus containing one species (pentagenia robusta), which is an extinct type of mayfly
14:21:26 <tusho> and mayflies are ephemeral
14:21:28 <AnMaster> I'm not sure of the English word.... but in Swedish I would say I'm "snål"
14:21:41 <AnMaster> as in extremely much don't want to waste money
14:21:47 <AnMaster> not sure of the English word
14:21:52 <tusho> AnMaster: cheap? ;)
14:22:21 <AnMaster> think Scrooge (spelling?) from that classical story, "A Christmas carol"(?)
14:22:33 <tusho> scrooge is the right spelling
14:22:38 <tusho> and that's the right name
14:23:00 * tusho ponders on the opposite of ephemera
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14:26:47 <tusho> halo pakihq
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14:37:44 <pikhq> Halo.
14:39:31 <tusho> pikhq: what do you think of pentagenia.org as a domain
14:39:39 <tusho> just in general domainular terms.
14:42:16 <pikhq> Meh.
14:42:22 <pikhq> Could be interesting.
14:42:52 <tusho> pikhq: I wanted ephemera.org but it's taken
14:43:14 <tusho> mayflies are ephemerical -> pentagenia robusta is an extinct species of mayfly -> the pentagenia genus contains only that species
14:43:29 <pikhq> Robusta.
14:43:49 <tusho> ... is not a very aesthetically pleasing name
14:43:54 <tusho> it makes me think of rust for some reason
14:44:07 <tusho> also, robusta.org is taken
14:45:53 <pikhq> Aww.
14:47:50 <tusho> if only photographers all died.
14:47:54 <tusho> then I could have ephemera.org.
14:51:08 <tusho> pikhq: Any related-to-ephemera domain names you can think of? The synonyms are all boring or taken.
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15:18:42 <ihope> If you write that proposal system, they will die! :-P
15:21:13 <tusho> ihope: <.<
15:21:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, any progress on your Def-BF implementation
15:21:31 <AnMaster> ?
15:21:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, or on the bison file?
15:22:52 <pikhq> None.
15:22:55 <pikhq> None at all.
15:23:01 <AnMaster> oh well...
15:23:08 * tusho is trying to find a big image of old paper-sorta
15:23:12 <tusho> like old maps and similar
15:23:25 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you plan to use it for?
15:23:52 <tusho> AnMaster: for pentagenia.org/whatever, /attic/ will be used to store common images, stylesheets etc
15:24:00 <AnMaster> k
15:24:02 <tusho> going to just /attic/ I have "Here Be Dragons"
15:24:07 <tusho> i'd like to put some old paper behind that
15:24:15 <AnMaster> so how is botte going?
15:24:24 <tusho> quite well, the actual implementation will be trivial
15:24:35 <tusho> it's just the making sure it can handle stuff
15:24:38 <tusho> which I've mostly got worked out
15:25:23 <AnMaster> blergh this old P3 got larger CPU cache than my modern 64-bit Sempron :(
15:25:32 <AnMaster> (256 kb vs. 128 kb)
15:28:17 <pikhq> Semprons are notable for having a low amount of cache. :p
15:28:22 <AnMaster> yeah :(
15:28:35 <tusho> bah, I found some good old paper
15:28:37 <tusho> but it doesn't tile
15:31:49 * ihope steals WordPress's Terms of Service
15:32:14 <tusho> ihope: For normish?
15:32:15 <tusho> That makes no sense.
15:32:28 <ihope> Well, it needs some sort of Terms of Service.
15:32:41 <tusho> Yes but it's meaningless just to pick one.
15:32:53 <tusho> I'll draft one around the same time as my proposal system, prob'ly.
15:32:57 <ihope> Okay.
15:33:12 * ihope plucks out unimportant bits and ponders things to be added
15:33:12 <tusho> "Don't be stupid, don't be evil" will probably suffice in the meanterm
15:33:12 <tusho> :P
15:33:29 <ihope> Don't be stupid, don't be evil, and don't sue us.
15:34:08 <tusho> Also, don't follow the terms of service.
15:41:09 <ihope> Hmm. It turns out the WordPress Terms of Service just aren't very good for a thing such as Normish.
15:41:20 <tusho> Zomg rly. :P
15:41:30 <tusho> But to be honest I doubt you need one right now, due to the complete lack of people.
15:41:49 <ihope> True. I might as well be working on something while you're slaving away at that proposal system, though.
15:42:01 <tusho> ihope: Write a theme song.
15:42:24 <tusho> Nooooormish! It's norma-norma-normish! Normish all day, normish all night, amending itself until it's right! Noooooooooooooormishhhhhhhhhh!
15:43:14 <tusho> ihope: No?
15:44:11 -!- Hiato has joined.
15:46:27 <ihope> Sounds like that recording my friends made for me.
15:46:34 <ihope> It was them enthusiastically repeating my name. :-D
15:50:15 <ihope> A slogan, perhaps.
15:51:53 <ihope> "The free* website that anyone can edit**. (*Most parts of the website are free to access.) (**Registration required. Some parts of the website may be closed to editing to some users.)"
15:53:50 <tusho> ihope: shall I explain the tune of my jingle
15:53:57 <ihope> Yes.
15:54:38 <tusho> AAaaaaauu! Ia nanananana! da da da du, da da da du, da da da da du da da da! Daladaladaldaldaldaldaldda!
15:54:41 <tusho> To the above lyrics.
15:55:05 <ihope> Sounds Katamari Damacyy.
15:55:51 <tusho> ihope: No, more 80s-90s jingle/theme song.
16:38:43 <AnMaster> tusho, when you get an idea is it "I got it!" or "I have it!" that is the correct English exclamation?
16:38:53 <tusho> AnMaster: I've got it!
16:38:58 <tusho> (I have got it)
16:39:01 <AnMaster> ah...
16:39:02 <tusho> so, it's both
16:39:02 <tusho> :P
16:39:05 <tusho> brb
16:39:06 <AnMaster> hahh
17:09:45 <ihope> tusho: should we discuss the Terms of Service at all, or shall we just complain about them when the time comes? :-)
17:09:58 <tusho> ihope: :D
17:10:29 <tusho> AnMaster: informally, 'Got it' is common
17:11:03 <ihope> I think we should say that by submitting your code, you certify that we may use it unless you state otherwise somehow, and you agree that we may use it.
17:11:51 <tusho> ihope: When I write it, it'll involve all your code being public domain
17:12:04 <ihope> Sounds good.
17:12:08 <tusho> or if that's legally impossible, giving everyone the right to do anything with it
17:12:40 <ihope> "You certify that it's public-domain-etc unless you state otherwise, and you agree that it's public-domain-etc."
17:12:49 <ihope> Hmm, no.
17:12:56 <tusho> No.
17:12:59 <tusho> don't give them a choice
17:13:12 <tusho> anyway 'certify that it's public domain' is more-or-less meaningless
17:13:14 <ihope> Well, if they submit their own stuff, they agree that it's public domain no matter what.
17:13:41 <ihope> I take it there's no law saying that you can't certify something false, then.
17:14:08 <tusho> It's just that it isn't very meaningful
17:14:13 <tusho> anyway public domain is invalid in a lot of places
17:14:14 <tusho> I'll think about it
17:14:37 <ihope> Forget the certify, then. "You agree that it's public-domain-etc."
17:14:45 <tusho> That is also pretty meaningless...
17:15:00 <ihope> "You make it public-domain-etc, if possible"?
17:16:43 <ihope> More legalesey: "By submitting content to the Server, you agree that it is in the public domain, or, if this is not legally possible, that anyone may use it for any purpose to the maximum extent that is legally possible."
17:16:59 <tusho> It's still terrible wording.
17:17:03 <tusho> Anyway I'd drop PD entirely
17:17:08 <tusho> and use the cc-pd wordin
17:17:08 <tusho> g
17:18:47 <ihope> Yeah.
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18:03:38 <tusho> lost the game
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18:15:30 <tusho> Wow. I seem to have 1 million dollars.
18:15:31 <tusho> Who wants it?
18:17:55 <tusho> Nobody at all?
18:20:00 <tusho> 1 million dollars and nobody wants it? Is that right?
18:20:53 <tusho> ihope: not even you?
18:21:11 <ihope> I do.
18:21:39 <tusho> ihope: Okay. You can have all the 1 million dollars.
18:21:50 <ihope> Yay.
18:21:52 <tusho> All I have to do now is find out how to convert Zimbabwean dollars to US dollars...
18:21:53 <tusho> :D
18:22:28 <tusho> who saw that coming
18:22:29 <tusho> <.<
18:22:39 <ihope> Me. :-P
18:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, I can help you with that
18:24:02 <tusho> ihope: Exactly that?
18:24:12 <tusho> Zimbabwean dollars? If so, you win a cookie.
18:24:17 <tusho> AnMaster: :P
18:24:19 <AnMaster> just scan the front and the back of your ID cards and send the scans to me
18:24:20 <AnMaster> !
18:24:26 <AnMaster> ;P
18:24:42 <tusho> :D
18:25:00 <ihope> So, you have... what, ZWD 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000--no, I figured it might be a much less valuable currency also called a dollar.
18:25:01 <AnMaster> also your bank details
18:25:09 <tusho> oh, and for any uncultured people who don't know anything about the world and don't need up with the news, USD$1 = Z$1,000,000
18:25:27 <AnMaster> tusho, ouch that is bad inflation
18:25:28 <tusho> approx
18:25:37 <tusho> AnMaster: est. 9,000,000% or so
18:25:38 <tusho> I believe
18:25:51 <AnMaster> tusho, per year?
18:25:55 <tusho> AnMaster: not sure
18:25:59 <tusho> they print Z$1bn notes, though
18:26:09 <ihope> Doesn't matter; the currency will be worthless eventually.
18:26:24 <AnMaster> they should try to make it go stable and then redefine in a new currency
18:26:30 <AnMaster> so you have sane values
18:26:46 <tusho> AnMaster: zimbabwean is run by a dictator
18:26:48 <tusho> pretty much.
18:26:52 <tusho> *zimbabwe
18:27:05 <AnMaster> Mugabe iirc?
18:27:09 <tusho> yep
18:27:18 <tusho> somehow I don't think a racist dictator who uses violence and plain ignoring of election results to stay in power cares much about the currency
18:28:20 <ihope> There was a video clip of a guy with a bucket of pennies, offering people to take some.
18:28:58 * tusho notes another domain: percolation.org
18:29:07 <tusho> I think I like percolation.org more than pentagenia.org
18:29:19 <tusho> it's also more unique than ephemera i think
18:29:33 <tusho> first result = wikipedia article
18:29:34 <tusho> always a good sign
18:29:39 <tusho> comments?
18:30:21 <ihope> Nope.
18:30:38 <ihope> Type it into a domain name service and watch it get registered before your very eyes.
18:31:19 <tusho> ihope: That's money. I want to make sure first. :P
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18:31:57 * ihope tests
18:32:09 <tusho> ?
19:03:09 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:03:19 <asiekierka> helo
19:03:26 <tusho> hi asiekierka
19:12:42 <Sgeo> Hi asiekierka
19:14:08 <tusho>
19:15:04 <psygnisfive> tushooo
19:18:03 <tusho> psygnisfiveeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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19:19:38 * Sgeo actually managed to go too far in a fractal program
19:19:47 <psygnisfive> tusho, you know ruby right?
19:19:52 <tusho> of course
19:19:59 <psygnisfive> wanna work on a project together?
19:20:28 <tusho> What is it?
19:20:42 <psygnisfive> pms
19:42:15 <SimonRC> pre-menstural syndrome?
19:42:28 <SimonRC> or plural of PM?
19:43:20 <tusho> latter
19:43:24 <psygnisfive> former
19:43:29 <psygnisfive> tusho's a girl, you know.
19:43:34 <tusho> shut up psygnisfive
19:43:40 <tusho> it wasn't funny the first time, it still isn't funny
19:43:43 <psygnisfive> he'll be a woman soon, and PMS will be a rather important issue
19:43:54 <psygnisfive> btw, your birthday is the 22 right?
19:43:58 <tusho> psygnisfive: just shut the fuck up. and yes.
19:44:04 <psygnisfive> ok.
19:44:48 * SimonRC wonders what evidence psygnisfive has for that claim.
19:45:20 <psygnisfive> what evidence that tusho is a girl?
19:45:26 <SimonRC> yeah
19:45:39 <tusho> SimonRC: he's just doing it to annoy me.
19:45:40 <tusho> ignore him.
19:45:44 <psygnisfive> firstly, none, its just humorous remarks based on his appearance and voice
19:45:52 <psygnisfive> secondly, by. :D
19:45:56 <psygnisfive> bye
19:46:00 <tusho> psygnisfive: humorous to one person - you
19:46:36 <SimonRC> you don't know each other IRL do you?
19:46:50 <psygnisfive> were lovers
19:46:52 <psygnisfive> bye
19:47:10 <tusho> SimonRC: no.
19:47:33 <SimonRC> ok
19:52:35 <tusho> pentagenia.org, percolation.org... /me continues considering alternatives to ephemera.org
19:52:46 <tusho> (Hmm. Roughly (exactly?) the same length and starting with p.)
19:52:49 <asiekierka> I want to create a NOISC
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19:52:55 <asiekierka> Negative One Instruction Set Computer
19:52:59 <SimonRC> lol
19:53:05 <asiekierka> I will make it as such
19:53:23 <tusho> asiekierka: when you look at programs, do they eat the screen space around them?
19:53:27 <tusho> do they run in negative time?
19:53:31 <asiekierka> i will explain
19:53:33 <asiekierka> there is...
19:53:34 <tusho> I'd love to have programs finish running before I start them
19:53:43 <asiekierka> One instruction that sure as heck doesn't exist in the language: a form of finishing the program
19:53:51 <asiekierka> So we dont know any instructions
19:53:54 <asiekierka> we only know what isnt
19:54:11 <asiekierka> Who'll now make an app for it?
19:54:37 <asiekierka> You use any instructions
19:54:43 <asiekierka> except a form of finishing the program
19:55:21 <tusho> heh
19:55:28 <tusho> that's actually infinite instructions..
19:55:44 <tusho> anyway here's my program
19:55:45 <tusho> HW
19:55:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what language is it?
19:55:52 <asiekierka> "NOISC"
19:55:53 <tusho> that is the "hello world then halt" instruction
19:56:02 <asiekierka> Negative One Instruction Set Computer
19:56:11 <AnMaster> oh?
19:56:13 <AnMaster> sounds fun
19:56:14 <tusho> AnMaster: it's actually infinite instructions
19:56:16 <asiekierka> We only know what command isn't surely there
19:56:20 <tusho> he just specified one instruction that isnt there
19:56:20 <asiekierka> Also, tusho...
19:56:23 <tusho> and says that every other will work.
19:56:31 <asiekierka> I said "form of finishing a program" is banned
19:56:35 <asiekierka> ANYTHING counts
19:56:37 <tusho> asiekierka: no, you said one instruction was banned
19:56:39 <asiekierka> even crashes/halts.
19:56:43 <tusho> my instruction is "hello world & halt"
19:56:45 <tusho> not "halt"
19:56:49 <asiekierka> any form of finishing the program
19:57:00 <asiekierka> also, you can't combine instructions
19:57:00 <tusho> then it's even less like a -1 instruction set computer
19:57:04 <tusho> you can only ban one instruction.
19:57:09 <tusho> not one bit of functionality.
19:57:15 <asiekierka> -1 instruction set computer. Haha.
19:57:25 <asiekierka> Hahaha.
19:57:28 <asiekierka> Hahahahahaahahahaha.
19:57:33 <asiekierka> Muahaahahaha!
19:57:50 <tusho> What.
19:58:16 <asiekierka> I said it's an negative one instruction set computer. See? I say the set is "anything with a halt/crash/finishing the program"
19:58:37 <tusho> Then it's a negative infinity instruction set computer.
19:58:42 <tusho> There are infinite instructions which can halt.
19:58:47 <tusho> There's also infinite "other instructions".
19:58:52 <tusho> So it's -inf+inf instruction set computer.
19:59:09 <asiekierka> let's not complicate it too much
19:59:11 <asiekierka> PLEASE.
19:59:21 <asiekierka> Just call it NOISC and that's all.
20:00:01 <tusho> No.
20:00:04 <tusho> It's not very interesting.
20:00:10 <asiekierka> But NOISC sounds cool
20:00:21 <tusho> It's "EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, apart from everything that halts the program"
20:00:26 <tusho> It's not negative instructions, it's just silly.
20:00:51 <asiekierka> ok
20:01:03 <asiekierka> so it'll be -I+IISC
20:01:16 <asiekierka> or EITW_afethtp
20:02:27 <tusho> But it's not implementable, usable, interesting, or hard, or anything really
20:02:52 <asiekierka> what about a IIC
20:02:56 <asiekierka> Infinite Instruction CPU
20:03:28 <asiekierka> oh
20:03:28 <asiekierka> of
20:03:29 <asiekierka> or
20:03:33 <asiekierka> i meant, or.
20:03:39 <asiekierka> OR IIuHC
20:03:46 <asiekierka> Infinite Instruction un-Haltable CPU
20:04:56 <AnMaster> hm
20:42:16 <tusho> brb
20:46:46 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Rule 2 is false. 2. If Rule 1 is true, Rule 3 is false. 3. If i'm false, rule 2 is false too..
21:01:15 <ihope> Assume rule 1 is true. This means rule 2 is false, meaning Rules 1 and 3 are both true.
21:01:54 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Every rule but this one is true. 2. I'm false, while rule 1 is true.
21:02:13 <ihope> Assume rule 1 is false. This means rule 2 is true, but we already knew that. If rule 3 is false, it's false but 2 is true; if it's true, no consequence.
21:02:45 <ihope> Now that's inconsistent.
21:02:51 <tusho> asiekierka
21:02:53 <tusho> not this again
21:03:03 <tusho> this is the second time you've made stupid "self-contradicting" rulesets
21:03:07 <tusho> and spammed the channel with them
21:03:30 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Tusho is always right. 2. If tusho is right, Rule 1 is false..
21:03:37 <tusho> No asiekierka.
21:03:38 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged..
21:03:39 <tusho> Stop.
21:03:42 <tusho> Thanks.
21:03:43 <SimonRC> lol
21:03:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly la--you mean SPAMMED..
21:04:21 <tusho> factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly changed by asiekierka, constantly.
21:04:25 -!- tusho has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly changed by asiekierka, constantly..
21:04:41 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly cha--you mean SPAMMED by asiekierka, constantly..
21:06:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:09:52 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:19:29 <AnMaster> I got nfs working \o/
21:26:07 <Tritonio_> ihope
21:33:27 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity. | This topic is publicly cha--you mean SPAMMED by asiekierka, constantly..
21:33:38 <Tritonio_> oops. i didn't knew I could change it...
21:35:25 -!- tusho has set topic: HTTP://VJN.CC/X <Tritonio_> oops. i didn't knew I could change it....
21:35:34 <Tritonio_> :-D
21:36:47 -!- Corun has joined.
21:45:28 <tusho> here's the deal: change the topic to the line your client outputs to tell you i've changed the topic
21:45:30 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x.
21:46:43 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x.
21:46:59 <Tritonio_> do you need the asterisc too?
21:47:07 <tusho> sure
21:47:12 -!- tusho has set topic: Topic changed to "* tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x" by Tritonio_..
21:47:15 -!- SimonRC has set topic: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x".
21:47:16 <Tritonio_> the timestamp which i ignored?
21:47:18 <SimonRC> oops
21:47:21 <tusho> 'sok SimonRC
21:47:26 <tusho> Tritonio_: don't put in timestamps
21:47:26 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: * SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x".
21:47:41 -!- tusho has set topic: Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_..
21:48:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:49:34 <Tritonio_> we should do a poll to see where we come from... Something like that (put website name here, the default is frap) map that used to be...
21:49:51 <tusho> whoa ... symbolics.com was the first domain name
21:49:53 <SimonRC> that is probably still about
21:49:54 <tusho> yes, the lisp machine symbolics
21:49:56 <tusho> and it still exists
21:50:04 <Tritonio_> tusho, ??????????????????
21:50:11 <tusho> Tritonio_: what
21:50:40 <Tritonio_> what lisp machine symbolics??? :-D
21:50:48 <Tritonio_> oooooo
21:50:50 <Tritonio_> sorry
21:50:55 <Tritonio_> missed a line.... ;-)
21:51:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:57:49 <oerjan> <tusho> ihope: Okay. You can have all the 1 million dollars.
21:57:59 <tusho> what
21:58:21 <oerjan> you _are_ aware that they stripped 10 digits off Z$ just yesterday?
21:58:41 <oerjan> so that could be more expensive than you thought
21:58:50 <tusho> oerjan: oh dear
21:59:05 <tusho> oerjan: i wasn't aware, no
21:59:29 -!- ihope has set topic: tusho has changed the topic to ``Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_.''.
21:59:46 -!- ihope has set topic: =-=tusho has changed the topic to ``Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_.''.
21:59:55 <oerjan> otoh 100 million wasn't enough to buy bread, last i recall
21:59:55 <tusho> oerjan: so how much do I owe ihope
22:00:01 <oerjan> hm
22:01:18 <oerjan> google doesn't seem to do ZWD
22:01:43 <oerjan> so now, 10 Z$ still isn't enough to buy bread i assume
22:01:57 <oerjan> er wait
22:02:01 <oerjan> 100 billion
22:02:41 <SimonRC> yes
22:02:43 <tusho> ok, so it's probably like £10
22:02:54 <tusho> no wait
22:02:57 <tusho> much less
22:03:01 <SimonRC> yes
22:03:29 <tusho> dudes, let's go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouvet_Island
22:03:31 <tusho> :D
22:05:37 <oerjan> official rate 7.58 on Aug 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar#Third_Dollar_2)
22:06:02 <tusho> oh. err.
22:06:04 <tusho> that's quite a lot then
22:06:32 <oerjan> so 1000000 Z$ probably was then about 131000 USD
22:06:42 <tusho> fuck.
22:06:46 <oerjan> although the _real_ rate is higher
22:07:28 <oerjan> 61 it says
22:07:32 <oerjan> (today)
22:08:01 <oerjan> 16393 USD
22:10:33 <oerjan> bouvet island is norwegian btw
22:11:08 <SimonRC> that would just be the greatest place to have a domain
22:11:24 <SimonRC> why doesn't it use .no anyway?
22:12:14 <oerjan> beats me. it's so remote even norwegians rarely think about it :D
22:12:14 <tusho> we should establish "esoterica" on bouvet island
22:12:25 <tusho> and claim independence from norway
22:12:30 <tusho> and take over the domain
22:12:41 <tusho> and ummm try and survive on the most remote island in the world while freezing to death
22:12:43 <tusho> and then die!
22:12:53 <oerjan> sounds like a plan to me
22:16:45 <oerjan> here's something relevant: http://www.norid.no/domenenavnbaser/bv-sj.html
22:17:37 <oerjan> presumably it has something to do with its being a territory and not a part of the kingdom proper.
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22:20:04 <SimonRC> surely setting up a mad scientist base out there is more fun?
22:20:15 <tusho> SimonRC: we could do that before dying
22:21:11 <oerjan> mad scientists could even do it afterwards
22:21:24 <oerjan> Brains...
22:21:57 <oerjan> although there may be a shortage of (human) brains on the island
22:22:31 <SimonRC> all one needs to do that is a plan to take over the world and a large amount of money
22:23:20 <tusho> urghhh
22:23:23 <tusho> stupid Agora.
22:23:29 <tusho> thinking speech acts have truth values
22:23:53 <SimonRC> explain?
22:23:57 <tusho> even michael norrish posted to say that they're all wrong
22:24:10 <tusho> SimonRC: they are stating that actions like
22:24:13 <tusho> "I transfer X to Y"
22:24:16 <tusho> have defined truth values
22:24:22 <tusho> this is relvant because until recently there was a rule stating
22:24:29 <tusho> that you can't make a statement that you don't believe to be true to a public forum
22:24:39 <tusho> this is outrageous - it means that failing actions are illegal
22:24:53 <tusho> so i've just been decided GUILTY for a failing action
22:25:13 <tusho> that rule was repealed, but CFJs apply to when they were called
22:25:18 <SimonRC> what tense did you say it in?
22:25:44 <tusho> SimonRC: it was "I register" (long story)
22:25:55 <SimonRC> ah
22:26:02 <SimonRC> ok
22:26:11 <tusho> oerjan played Agora, maybe he can share in my outrage
22:26:48 * SimonRC tries to remember what that is called
22:27:10 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!!!! does this help?
22:27:19 <SimonRC> maybe that tense/mood/case doesn't have a name; one only encounters it in role-playing and the like, usually
22:27:29 <tusho> oerjan: depends, was it sincere
22:27:35 <oerjan> no
22:27:48 <tusho> oerjan: then no
22:27:53 <oerjan> aww
22:29:15 <oerjan> SimonRC: i vaguely recall having heard a name. but not what it was. :D
22:29:57 <oerjan> maybe it was in agora
22:29:58 * SimonRC just asked elsenet
22:30:43 <oerjan> oh, maybe it was just "speech acts"
22:31:10 <tusho> oerjan: do you agree that they don't have truth values?
22:31:18 <tusho> and that being punished for a failing action is redonkulous
22:32:01 <oerjan> wp leads on from "speech acts" to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illocutionary_act
22:35:05 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance which in fact discusses this true/false question!
22:35:40 <SimonRC> other things that were suggested elsenet: present, Narrative tense, roleplayative
22:35:49 <SimonRC> handy
22:36:23 * tusho wonders if oerjan is still subscribed to the agora lists
22:36:31 * tusho wonders if -anyone- has been subscribed since 1993 continuously
22:37:11 <oerjan> i'm technically subscribed, but only the backup lists are set to deliver
22:37:37 <tusho> heh
22:37:42 <tusho> why the backups?
22:38:04 <oerjan> just for the occasional nostalgic reminder i guess
22:38:17 <tusho> the backups were used a few months ago
22:38:17 <tusho> iirc
22:38:28 <oerjan> yes
22:38:48 <SimonRC> "backups"?
22:39:46 <tusho> SimonRC: agora's lists go down every now and then
22:39:52 <tusho> there are two extra lists that are used in that case
22:41:41 <SimonRC> ok
22:41:47 <oerjan> tusho: from quickly browsing that last wikipedia article it is clear that philosophers disagree on whether such statements have truth values or not
22:42:09 <tusho> meh.
22:42:17 <tusho> i definitely believe they don't
22:42:23 <tusho> either way, it should be specialcased
22:42:31 <tusho> so that failing actions aren't illegal
22:42:37 <tusho> the truth rule is gone now anyway so
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22:50:36 <oerjan> btw according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_valued_currency_unit the vietnamese dong is probably now the lowest value currency
22:52:14 <tusho> oerjan: why, are they really s*hot*
22:52:37 <oerjan> ?
22:52:56 <tusho> it was a crude joke on the name of the currency
22:53:02 <oerjan> gah
22:53:05 <tusho> and s*hot* was s*shot*, sans redundancy
22:54:16 <oerjan> btw, "In Vietnamese, dong literally means copper"
22:55:58 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:56:42 <tusho> oerjan: those vietnamese sure have weird bodies
22:57:42 <oerjan> "Since 2003, Vietnam has replaced its cotton banknotes with plastic polymer banknotes, which it claims will save money[6]. Many newspapers in the country criticized these changes, citing mistakes in printing and alleging that the son of the governor of the State Bank of Vietnam benefited from printing contracts[6]. The government clamped down on these criticisms by banning two newspapers from publishing for a month and considering other sanctions on
22:58:08 <tusho> on...
22:58:37 <oerjan> ?
22:58:59 <oerjan> i just found the last sentence .. fueled my prejudices :D
22:59:06 <tusho> it ended with "on"
22:59:10 <tusho> "ring other sanctions on"
22:59:13 <oerjan> oh
22:59:23 <oerjan> .. on other newspapers."
23:00:08 <oerjan> darn irc giving no cutoff warning :(
23:10:53 -!- ErkiDerLoony has joined.
23:11:02 <pikhq> Told ya.
23:11:42 <oerjan> when?
23:12:05 <pikhq> oerjan: That was for ErkiDerLoony, actually.
23:12:16 <pikhq> Who has come to us courtesy of ##brainfuck.
23:12:35 <pikhq> Population Gregor, ErkiDerLoony, Chanserv, and I.
23:13:20 <ErkiDerLoony> Yeah well, I just found the wiki article about brainfuck. And tried it. :)
23:13:30 <pikhq> Ah.
23:13:34 <pikhq> Fun stuff.
23:13:44 <pikhq> That, BTW, is how a lot of us started on esoteric languages.
23:13:45 <pikhq> (most?)
23:14:24 <SimonRC> I still remember the NewScientist side-box that mentionned BF
23:14:32 <SimonRC> 'twas the only one I could recall the name of
23:15:36 <ErkiDerLoony> pikhq: So you started with BF. What are you doing today?
23:15:51 <pikhq> Just got done watching a movie...
23:15:57 <pikhq> ATM, I'm just sitting on IRC.
23:16:18 <ErkiDerLoony> ;)
23:16:26 <ErkiDerLoony> I'm playing with my new KDE 4.1.
23:16:30 <pikhq> Ah.
23:16:46 <ErkiDerLoony> And I'm going to watch some episode of Knight Rider right away.
23:16:53 <pikhq> I don't have the hard drive space for that yet.
23:16:59 <pikhq> Still waiting on 4 100G drives.
23:17:58 <tusho> hi ErkiDerLoony
23:18:02 <tusho> you can never leave now
23:18:47 <ErkiDerLoony> You mean this channel or programming in esoteric languages?
23:18:54 <pikhq> Both.
23:18:56 <tusho> both
23:19:04 <ErkiDerLoony> ;)
23:20:08 <SimonRC> you can "svn co", but you can never "svn leave"
23:20:15 <oerjan> also we would say you are now officially mad, except your nick indicates you already know
23:20:29 <tusho> SimonRC: svn?
23:20:32 <tusho> how primitive.
23:20:39 <pikhq> Git.
23:20:45 <tusho> You can "git clone", but you can never "rm -r".
23:20:58 <pikhq> SVN is at least a bit like having discovered fire...
23:20:58 <oerjan> pikhq: no need to be rude
23:21:07 <tusho> oerjan: that was a joke right
23:21:09 <SimonRC> ErkiDerLoony: not related to "Mad Eric", the guiness world record holder for most stuff in pockets, are you?
23:21:31 <tusho> oerjan: please say that was a joke?
23:21:33 <oerjan> tusho: IMPOSSIBLE
23:21:34 <pikhq> Primitive, but a hell of a lot better than those CVS or RCS tribes.
23:21:38 <tusho> Phew.
23:21:38 <tusho> :P
23:21:45 <pikhq> (for those tribes: the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys.)
23:21:52 <SimonRC> CVS = pain
23:21:56 <SimonRC> from my experience
23:21:57 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:22:00 <tusho> pikhq: I see your hhgttg quote.
23:22:02 <tusho> I see it done good.
23:22:08 <tusho> Anyway, real men use SCCS .
23:22:10 <tusho> And ed.
23:22:31 <pikhq> tusho: :)
23:22:48 <tusho> Well, ed is a bit too non-unixy.
23:22:54 <tusho> Even 'awk' is pushing it.
23:23:03 <pikhq> ed is non-unixy?
23:23:08 <tusho> 'sed' and 'cat' are really the only "unixy" manipulation tools.
23:23:20 <tusho> Because they operate as command-line based pipes which work on tiny tiny languages
23:23:23 <tusho> (cat's language is the identity function)
23:23:39 <pikhq> *cat*?
23:23:41 <pikhq> Psssh.
23:23:48 <tusho> pikhq: actually i'm being serious here
23:23:55 <pikhq> Unless you're concatenating stuff, cat is overdoing it.
23:23:56 <tusho> obviously the unix philosophy doesn't work in its pure form
23:24:11 <tusho> because 'sed' and 'cat' are basically the unixy text manipulation tools
23:24:18 <pikhq> <.bashrc
23:24:20 <tusho> and, of course, editing with just them would be hell
23:24:39 <oerjan> pikhq: echo >
23:24:49 <pikhq> Though, to be honest, <.zshrc would be more *appropriate*.
23:25:09 <tusho> cat, echo, sed: the UNIX suite of text manipulation tools
23:25:11 <tusho> Also known as "hell".
23:25:19 <pikhq> I use Zsh. "<.zshrc" actually outputs .zshrc. Paginated.
23:26:24 <tusho> pikhq: Which happens to be un-unixy.
23:26:31 <tusho> What i'm trying to say is that the unix philosophy is nice but it has major flaws.
23:26:52 <tusho> A mix of classic mac os / plan 9 / unix would probably not be such a bad OS.
23:27:02 <tusho> OS X is probably the closest operating system to that that you can use practically today
23:27:05 <pikhq> tusho: The Z shell is, I think, just calling $PAGER with stdin.
23:27:27 <pikhq> Granted, the Z shell is otherwise completely un-Unixy.
23:27:42 <pikhq> (it is an editor. And an FTP client. And Tetris.)
23:28:05 <tusho> I have both emacs, z shell and firefox installed here.
23:28:09 <tusho> And also qemu with loads of OS'.
23:28:13 <tusho> I have a lot of operating systems on here ;)
23:28:51 <pikhq> ;)
23:37:50 -!- ErkiDerLoony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:39:53 <pikhq> he left!
23:44:09 <tusho> :O
23:46:32 * SimonRC reads The Effects of Moore's Law and Slacking on Large Computations http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/9912/9912202v1.pdf
23:46:49 <psygnisfive> simonrc: summarize?
23:47:25 <SimonRC> sometimes you get work done faster by waiting for a better computer before you start work
23:52:21 <tusho> bye for today
23:52:26 -!- tusho has quit.
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2008-08-03
00:19:37 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:37:13 -!- adu has joined.
00:38:13 <adu> the topic is confusing
00:38:38 -!- oerjan has set topic: confusing.
00:38:43 * SimonRC goes to bed.
00:56:09 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:57:10 <CakeProphet> does anyone know where I can get a good implementation of the Mersenne Twister PRNG for C?
00:57:53 -!- Corun has joined.
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01:19:21 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
01:32:33 <adu> PRNG?
01:32:45 <pikhq> Psuedorandom number generator.
01:33:53 <oerjan> PRN generator. a really twisted one.
01:38:18 <adu> http://www.math.sci.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/~m-mat/MT/SFMT/index.html
01:39:07 <adu> I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I still know how to use google
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03:16:35 <CakeProphet> I think I'm going to learn some Haskell
03:17:37 * oerjan recommends the #haskell channel
03:18:10 <oerjan> (not because it's not allowed here, just because that's a very friendly channel)
03:18:36 <oerjan> even if large. hm i haven't checked it in a while.
03:19:21 <CakeProphet> basically I want to become more eclectic in my language influences
03:19:38 <CakeProphet> so I can make more even more esoteric esolangs. :D
03:19:54 <CakeProphet> any other recommendations?
03:20:17 <oerjan> prolog or another logic language, obviously
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03:46:10 <CakeProphet> so far I've got Haskell, Mathematica, Prolog, and Erlang on my list.
03:47:34 <oerjan> lisp or scheme if somehow you don't know those already
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04:47:26 <psygnisfive> hmm
04:47:30 <psygnisfive> question question
04:48:21 <psygnisfive> im working on a language somewhat different from what i've done before, right
04:50:16 <psygnisfive> and i've got a parse for a CFG that looks something like [S, s, A, a, b, C, c, d, e] on rules like S -> sABe
04:50:29 <psygnisfive> how would i build this sort of thing into an abstract syntax tree? :|
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05:02:17 <psygnisf_> please add the logs to the topic
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05:04:13 <adu> lol
05:04:28 <adu> i love the topic :)
05:04:37 <adu> now its really confusing
05:05:42 <psygnisfive> it also needs to have links to the logs otherwise we're in violation of freenode policy
05:07:38 <adu> you mean http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric
05:07:52 <adu> or is there another place?
05:16:29 <Ilari> psygnisfive: What's best way to construct abstract syntax tree depends bit on nature of the CFG...
05:16:45 <psygnisfive> nevermind. im just going back to my normal way of parsing :p
05:16:54 <psygnisfive> i was doing a different parse method
05:16:58 <psygnisfive> no tokenization first
05:17:20 <psygnisfive> which made it more frustrating to parse, and harder to do a tree-build on
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07:48:06 <psygnisfive> woo
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09:30:45 <psygnisfive> night guys
09:42:49 <adu> night
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11:20:15 <tusho> it occurs to me in many types of data collections (forums, feed readers, blogs etc) the most common & useful operation is 'view next unread'
11:20:31 <tusho> a few feed readers rightly focus on that operation, but forums and blogs and everything else seem to just totally ignore it
11:20:31 <tusho> a shame
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11:59:34 <Ilari> tusho: It requires potentially unbounded per-user state, so implementing it in multiuser environments is bit hairy...
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12:44:17 <tusho> Ilari: most forums track read/unread state
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13:16:39 <Ilari> tusho: Then one has to be able to search those states (without doing linear walk, which would be too expensive)...
13:38:12 <tusho> Ilari: Er, no.
13:38:19 <tusho> You just have to sort by last read (which forum index pages already do)
13:38:24 <tusho> then jump to the next one
13:43:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm sorry but I have been extremely busy this weekend
13:43:33 <AnMaster> no time to debug
13:43:44 <AnMaster> I will try to find the bug as soon as I have time
13:43:49 <AnMaster> bbl
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14:06:56 <tusho> i lost the game
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15:34:08 <tusho> fax hasn't been online for 13 weeks
15:34:08 <tusho> :(
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15:49:51 <tusho> [[[Why do you call it "blog" if people can't post comments?]]] - someone on reddit
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17:01:45 <psygnisfive> tusho: that's a silly question for someone to ask.
17:02:23 <tusho> psygnisfive: Actually I quoted it because it's a sensible & reasonable thing to ask.
17:02:24 <tusho> Totally.
17:02:37 <psygnisfive> :P
17:25:04 <tusho> brb
17:28:32 <SimonRC> hm
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17:45:52 <Mony> hi there
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18:13:21 <tusho> hi Mony
18:13:35 <tusho> who are you
18:13:37 <tusho> :P
18:18:11 <tusho> Mony: pin
18:18:11 <tusho> g
18:22:44 <SimonRC> Should being a good roleplayer make one cringe?
18:23:53 <SimonRC> I am just about to have a character whose L1 is not English say "Exploiting the stupid is fun to me." instead of "Exploiting the stupidity is fun to me.".
18:24:24 <tusho> SimonRC: I think it just makes you a tremendous nerd, actually.
18:24:41 <tusho> :)
18:24:57 <SimonRC> It's a distinctly non-human person.
18:25:23 <tusho> SimonRC: as opposed to non-distinctly non-human?
18:25:30 <SimonRC> yeah
18:25:37 <tusho> :P
18:25:46 <SimonRC> After a year or so of them being quiet, I think I ought to play up their unhuman side.
18:26:19 <tusho> SimonRC: make them start speaking in a conlang
18:26:31 <SimonRC> no-one would understand it
18:26:31 <tusho> when faced with confusion, reply in another conlang
18:26:33 <tusho> :D
18:27:54 <SimonRC> :rolleyes:
18:30:20 <Mony> hum...
18:30:26 <Mony> sorry i was eating
18:30:32 <Mony> i'm a young french :D
18:30:37 <tusho> eating? inexcusable :P
18:30:57 <Mony> :p
18:34:09 <Mony> i'm interrested making my own esoteric language
18:34:21 <tusho> that's ... not exactly uncommon here
18:34:22 <tusho> :P
18:34:53 <Mony> :P
18:35:06 <SimonRC> Mony: be sure to look through the wiki
18:35:07 <Mony> but, i think it's a bit difficult
18:35:19 <tusho> not really
18:35:21 <tusho> it's quite easy
18:35:27 <tusho> what languages do you know?
18:35:35 <Mony> C
18:35:48 <tusho> ah, a masochist :)
18:36:02 <Mony> i want to make a ...
18:36:06 <Mony> what's the word...
18:36:07 <tusho> well, a lot of esolang interps are written in more higher-level languages simply beacuse it makes it easier to hack up one
18:36:13 <tusho> but if you know C that works fine too
18:36:15 <Mony> interpreter, does it correct ?
18:36:33 <SimonRC> interpreter might be the right word
18:36:37 <tusho> yes
18:36:41 <Mony> ok ^^
18:36:42 <tusho> interpreter runs a program
18:37:03 <SimonRC> but a compiler turn the program into another form, so you can run it later
18:37:15 <Mony> yeah, i know
18:37:24 <Mony> the easier is a interpreter
18:37:52 <Mony> so...
18:38:07 <tusho> Mony: any lang in particular? or your own?
18:38:13 <tusho> design a language first, then implement it, obviously ;)
18:38:29 <Mony> i'm searching for something who will make my language different
18:38:42 <SimonRC> good luck
18:38:51 <Mony> thx...
18:39:04 <SimonRC> I recommend reading about the weirdest existing languages you can
18:39:11 <SimonRC> both serious and eso
18:39:33 <tusho> Mony: we're suckers for interesting ideas
18:39:38 <tusho> i'm sure you'll pick up something from this channel
18:39:43 <SimonRC> that will give you ideas
18:40:44 <Mony> i want to make a very very very strange language
18:41:01 <SimonRC> that could be hard
18:41:14 <Mony> like, u have only 1 number
18:41:41 <tusho> Mony: the problem is most strange languages are kind of trivial
18:41:42 <tusho> :)
18:41:53 <SimonRC> in that case, it must have weirder control flow than Bullfrog, weirder data than unlambda, and weirder syntax than J/K/APL
18:42:03 <Mony> ^^
18:42:22 <tusho> SimonRC: at which point it'd not be very interesting, just difficult
18:42:23 <tusho> :P
18:42:34 <Mony> SimonRC... i don't understand all ur sentence...
18:42:35 <SimonRC> and it must be eviller than Malbolge
18:42:45 <tusho> Mony: Bullfrog, unlambda, are esolangs
18:42:53 <tusho> J, K and APL are all serious languages but they're very strange
18:43:07 <tusho> Malbolge is an almost-impossible-to-program in esolang.
18:43:10 <tusho> use the wiki :)
18:43:24 <SimonRC> Unlambda is one of the foundation esolanguages
18:44:12 <SimonRC> if a university did an esolangs course, you would learn about at least most of Unlambda, Befunge, Brainfuck, Malbolge, and INTERCAL
18:45:01 <SimonRC> I didn't mean Bullfrog, I meant SMITH
18:45:10 <Mony> the problem now, is the language, i'm french, and my english is not perfect
18:45:26 <Mony> it's hard to understand all ur sentence, and all the wiki
18:45:26 <tusho> Mony: we'll explain any english you don't get
18:45:27 <tusho> just ask :)
18:45:37 <Mony> ok :)
18:45:37 <tusho> also who removed the log url from the topic...
18:45:41 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x.
18:47:01 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:47:28 <Mony> Whitespace language rox !
18:47:28 <Mony> xD
18:47:35 <tusho> it's fun
18:48:44 <tusho> 21:05:42 <psygnisfive> it also needs to have links to the logs otherwise we're in violation of freenode policy
18:48:45 <tusho> it did
18:48:50 <tusho> oh, wait
18:48:55 <tusho> that was after it became 'confusing'
18:48:59 <psygnisfive> yes.
18:49:11 <tusho> i wonder if rot13'd urls would count
18:49:14 <tusho> if you stated that it was rot13'df
18:49:18 <tusho> what if it was a one time pad?
18:49:40 <SimonRC> lol
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18:51:44 <Mony> do u know goto++ ?
18:52:09 <SimonRC> I have heard of it
18:52:16 <SimonRC> it is the French esolang
18:52:26 <SimonRC> also one of the few French programming language
18:52:27 <SimonRC> s
18:53:06 <Mony> http://www.gotopp.org/presentation.html.fr
18:53:11 <tusho> SimonRC: ocaml
18:53:14 <tusho> eiffel
18:53:16 <tusho> i could go on
18:53:19 <Mony> it's funny too
18:53:45 <SimonRC> I thought OCaml's keywords were in English
18:53:54 <tusho> ah, I see
18:53:57 <Mony> here is in english http://www.gotopp.org/presentation.html.en
18:55:49 <SimonRC> lolol
18:55:59 <tusho> (this fabulous language)
18:55:59 <SimonRC> "Manipulate the references (equivalent to pointers) to do a lot of bugs."
18:56:28 <SimonRC> "If you need it, the manual is here. Not "here" but on the word manal. So you can click here too. When I say "here", I mean on the second word "manual". Oh et puis merde!"
18:56:29 <tusho> holy shit
18:56:31 <tusho> it has its own domain
18:56:32 <tusho> gotopp.org
18:56:47 <tusho> http://www.gotopp.org/index.html NEWS REPORTS
18:56:51 <tusho> that's just overboard
18:57:04 <tusho> ...
18:57:05 <tusho> screenshots.
19:08:19 <SimonRC> oh wow, it uses for scientific notation
19:09:53 <SimonRC> hehehe: "Les chanes de caractres sont des chanes de caractres. Difficile d'tre plus clair."
19:10:21 <Mony> lol
19:10:33 <SimonRC> ("Strings of characters are strings of characters. It's hard to be clearer than that."
19:11:13 <SimonRC> )
19:13:23 <Deewiant> tusho: eiffel is from the USA
19:13:31 <tusho> Deewiant: is it okay
19:13:47 <Deewiant> it is!
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19:58:32 * SimonRC goes.
20:05:13 <AnMaster> tusho, seen ais?
20:05:17 <tusho> AnMaster: it's sunday
20:05:22 <AnMaster> ah true
20:05:27 <tusho> ais is not here on saturday or sunday
20:05:28 <tusho> :\
20:05:36 <AnMaster> anyway that was a bloody bad thunderstorm
20:05:38 <AnMaster> power went out
20:05:45 <AnMaster> in a large part of the town
20:09:31 <Deewiant> just now, or what?
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20:42:15 <ihope> I sense doubt about the correctness of sin = i!(1 - i!sin).
20:42:17 <ihope> :-P
20:45:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no before
20:45:08 <AnMaster> when I was disconnected
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21:22:51 <tusho> f
21:22:52 <tusho> f
21:22:52 <tusho> f
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21:59:10 <ihope> tusho: f
21:59:16 <tusho> ihope: f
21:59:22 <ihope> Wait, this isn't ##physics, so never mind.
21:59:37 <tusho> ihope: join ##physics and it shall be so!
21:59:54 <ihope> Sori.
22:00:02 <tusho> ihope: Otherwise I'll murder you.
22:00:06 <tusho> Murderously.
22:01:09 <ihope> I espic huiz acsent nao, oqu?
22:01:35 <tusho> ihope: f.
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22:13:34 <ihope> Efe.
22:18:27 <tusho> ihope: fffff
22:20:44 <ihope> Efe efe efe efe efe.
22:25:53 <ihope> We really need to come up with a way to say "Doing X will not help." than "Step 1: Do X. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!"
22:26:03 <ihope> A better way, even.
22:27:58 <tusho> ihope: how about "Doing X will not help."
22:29:23 <ihope> That isn't catchy.
22:29:51 <tusho> ihope: "X: Brilliant Idea!"
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22:50:31 <oerjan> <tusho> fax hasn't been online for 13 weeks
22:50:41 <tusho> faxasthisia
22:50:52 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing him change his nick
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22:50:58 <tusho> really?
22:50:59 <tusho> to what?
22:51:21 <oerjan> my vague recalls are getting less useful recently :D
22:52:03 <oerjan> also, there is not s before the th, i think
22:52:07 <oerjan> *no
22:52:12 <tusho> oerjan: combine it with loggrepping skills!
22:52:37 <oerjan> otoh i _could_ be confusing him with you
22:53:51 <tusho> probably
22:55:14 <oerjan> also, that would require me to actually _keep_ private logs. or possibly to register at ircbrowse, iirc.
22:55:42 <tusho> oerjan: wget --mirror http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
22:55:45 <tusho> grep term *
22:56:04 <tusho> (terminate the wget when it starts downloading stupid things like alternate directory listings and the parent directories ofc)
22:56:12 <Mony> who've got his own language here ?
22:56:18 <tusho> also ircbrowse is down
22:56:24 <tusho> Mony: esolangs are generally cheap
22:56:28 <tusho> there are people in here with more than 10
22:56:34 * oerjan raises his hand sort of
22:56:35 <tusho> because you can design & implement them in a few hours to a few days
22:56:39 * tusho has a few
22:57:15 <Mony> ok ^^
22:57:52 <oerjan> Mony: several of us have accounts at the esolangs wiki, you can check there
22:58:23 <Mony> when u speak about the wiki, is it Wikipedia ?
22:58:29 <oerjan> no!
22:58:37 <Mony> oh...
22:58:39 <oerjan> esolangs.org
22:59:12 <oerjan> wikipedia doesn't allow single person projects, esolangs does
22:59:20 <Mony> yeah
22:59:45 <oerjan> (or rather, wikipedia doesn't allow them unless they are actually famous)
22:59:53 <oerjan> like brainfuck
23:00:38 <tusho> Mony: http://esolangs.org/wiki/
23:00:39 <oerjan> esolangs uses the same software though, if a bit out of date
23:00:59 <tusho> (don't ask about the slices of lime)
23:01:00 <oerjan> and with some options turned off
23:01:18 * oerjan asks about the slices of lime
23:01:52 * tusho feeds oerjan to a goat
23:02:19 <oerjan> AYEEH
23:05:38 <ihope> Mony: ello.
23:05:45 <ihope> I've made a few languages.
23:05:46 <Mony> hi
23:05:51 <Mony> really ?
23:06:19 <tusho> Mony: most of us have
23:06:24 <tusho> it's really easy, honestly ;)
23:06:36 <Mony> i'm going to try
23:06:39 <Mony> ^^
23:06:41 <tusho> you just get a silly idea, write a mostly-okay description, then quickly hack up an implementation
23:06:44 <tusho> few hours to a few days
23:06:53 <tusho> Mony: you might want to learn a higher-level language than C
23:07:02 <oerjan> some of us leave out the implementation (:C
23:07:13 <tusho> since generally if you're quickly implementing the idea you don't wanna bother with stuff like memory management
23:07:15 <tusho> oerjan: :)
23:07:36 <Mony> a silly idea
23:07:39 <Mony> ... hum...
23:07:52 <tusho> Mony: also trying to hard to think of a silly idea is probably a bad idea :)
23:07:55 <Mony> i'm the creator of the silly compo on Dev-fr.org xD
23:08:14 <tusho> being in #esoteric generally has dangerous side-effects like silly ideas :D
23:08:28 <Mony> lol
23:09:09 <Mony> hum.. i've got an idea
23:09:27 <Mony> u will see ;)
23:12:35 * SimonRC liked Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.
23:12:38 * SimonRC goes to bed.
23:12:51 <tusho> Mony: oh?
23:13:14 <Mony> please, wait some minuts
23:13:18 <Mony> ;)
23:13:41 <tusho> Mony: generally we mention our ideas here immediately
23:13:43 <tusho> so that we can improve on htem
23:13:46 <tusho> or point out any serious flaws
23:14:31 <Mony> ok... but it's a bit difficult for me to explain in english :|
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23:15:23 * pikhq has a small handful.
23:15:34 * pikhq is behind the conversation. :p
23:16:04 <Mony> i think i'm going to say here sometime ^^
23:16:13 <tusho> Mony: so what's the idea?
23:16:16 <tusho> it's okay if you can't explain it fully
23:16:17 <tusho> :p
23:16:31 <Mony> you're nice, and, my english can be better then :)
23:16:40 <Mony> so, my idea :
23:16:53 <Mony> there only 1 number
23:17:02 <Mony> named "vab"
23:17:17 <tusho> mmhm
23:17:20 <Mony> there is somes instructions :
23:17:28 <tusho> is vab=0? or...
23:17:33 <Mony> yeah
23:17:38 <Mony> that's it
23:17:39 <Mony> and
23:17:50 <Mony> "+" add 1 to vab
23:18:18 <tusho> ah
23:18:18 <Mony> and, it's the same for the other basics like /, *, -
23:18:20 <tusho> there's one variable
23:18:27 <tusho> called vab
23:18:29 <tusho> that starts as 0
23:18:30 <Mony> yep
23:18:31 <tusho> int vab = 0;
23:18:38 <Mony> exactly
23:18:39 <tusho> Mony: *1 won't be very useful...
23:18:55 <Mony> no
23:18:56 <Mony> but
23:18:58 <Mony> *2
23:19:01 <Mony> and /2
23:19:03 <tusho> ah
23:19:07 <tusho> is there anything else to it?
23:19:11 <tusho> control structures and such
23:19:15 <tusho> (if, else, while and the like)
23:19:23 <Mony> in the future :p
23:19:25 <Mony> but
23:19:29 <tusho> sounds a little like deadfish to me right now :P http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish
23:19:44 <Mony> i'll put the print texte function
23:20:30 <pikhq> Well, if that's it...
23:20:39 <tusho> pikhq: hey, it's his first esolang
23:20:41 <tusho> don't be harsh
23:20:55 <pikhq> tusho: Actually, I was just going to say that I could have an implementation done quickly.
23:21:10 <tusho> Well yeah, I don't think an implementation is significantly hard :P
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23:21:13 <pikhq> It's simple, but an amusing concept, at least.
23:22:15 <tusho> int main(){char c;int vab=0;while(c=getchar()){switch(c){case '+':vab++;break;case '-':vab--;break;case '*':vab *= 2; break;case '/': vab /= 2; break;}};return 0;}
23:22:15 <tusho> :P
23:23:01 <Mony> that's it :P
23:23:14 * pikhq nods
23:23:26 <Mony> but
23:23:39 <Mony> there's some things differents
23:23:51 <tusho> oh?
23:23:58 <Mony> i put an drag'n'drog :p
23:24:14 <tusho> i don't see the relation of drag and drop to a language
23:24:15 <tusho> :P
23:24:30 <Mony> http://rafb.net/p/sBrbn810.html
23:24:50 <Mony> u drag the file, and u drop on the executable
23:24:57 <tusho> oh, it opens a file.
23:25:01 <tusho> lemme guess - you use windows
23:25:03 <Mony> yep
23:25:09 <Mony> yep :/
23:25:15 <tusho> if you drag a file on to an .exe it opens it with the filename as the first arg
23:25:18 <Mony> i'm a n00b with linux
23:25:22 <tusho> so it's more like "interprets a file"
23:25:26 <tusho> as opposed to "drag and drop" :P
23:25:41 <Mony> ^^
23:25:45 <tusho> Mony: p.s. "x = x OP y" is "x OP= y"
23:25:52 <tusho> vab = vab*2; vab *= 2;
23:25:56 <tusho> but I assume you knew
23:26:20 <Mony> oh, yes..
23:26:35 <Mony> not important yet :P
23:26:43 <tusho> not really :P
23:27:02 <Mony> so, now, i'm going to add print text function
23:27:44 <Mony> i remove printf("%d", vab);
23:27:46 <Mony> and
23:28:04 <Mony> if(buf == '$') printf("%c", vab);
23:28:43 <Mony> using decimal valors
23:29:18 <tusho> have fun :P
23:29:27 <tusho> Mony: your language isn't turing complete, yet
23:29:34 <tusho> in fact, it can't do anything but output constant strings
23:29:39 <tusho> you'll need to add some kind of loops
23:29:54 <Mony> yes, i know :/
23:30:08 <tusho> :)
23:31:08 <Mony> but... i'll do that tomorrow ^^
23:31:16 <pikhq> tusho: It's enough for 99 bottles of beer.
23:31:17 <pikhq> :p
23:31:29 <tusho> pikhq: Not a real one:P
23:35:21 <pikhq> tusho: It'll get the job done. :p
23:37:26 <Mony> wtf
23:37:36 <Mony> i already got some problems -_-
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23:37:58 <Mony> http://rafb.net/p/9T7NMl68.html
23:38:11 <Mony> hum...
23:38:24 <Mony> don't worry...
23:38:27 * Mony is a n00b
23:38:30 <Mony> be happy...
23:41:25 <pikhq> Might I recommend checking for end of file on fichier, instead of checking for the character ']'?
23:42:31 <Mony> EOF
23:42:58 <Mony> yeah, my language is useful already
23:43:06 <Mony> for mental calcul >_>
23:45:43 <oerjan> make buf an int, otherwise EOF checking is not portable
23:46:25 <oerjan> (the true EOF value is outside the bounds of char)
23:46:33 <Mony> ok...
23:48:38 <oerjan> hm, "fgetc() reads the next character from stream and returns it as an unsigned char cast to an int, or EOF on end of file or error.
23:49:25 <oerjan> doesn't this mean that on a system with signed chars comparing the result of fgetc with a character constant could fail?
23:49:51 <oerjan> (probably only with non-ASCII characters, but still)
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23:55:36 <Mony> hehe
23:55:37 <Mony> http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7450/stuffssxs8.jpg
23:56:00 <Mony> http://rafb.net/p/n2IXz562.html the source, only with +, and -
23:57:01 <Mony> so
23:57:04 <Mony> let's sleep
23:57:13 * tusho doesn't sleep
23:57:14 <Mony> see ya, and thank u guys ;)
23:57:18 <tusho> bye :D
23:57:20 * Mony is away: zZz
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2008-08-04
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01:08:28 <tusho> http://www.haskell.org/sitewiki/images/0/0a/TMR-Issue10.pdf Haskell in Haskell.
01:08:31 <tusho> Intermediate language?
01:08:32 <tusho> Unlambda.
01:14:01 <oerjan> closer to Lazy K, i should think
01:14:20 <tusho> i was just quoting the reddit headline
01:14:30 <oerjan> ah
01:19:06 -!- tusho has quit.
01:26:14 <pikhq> Hahah. :)
01:27:07 <oerjan> THIS IS NO LAUGHING MATTER
02:02:24 -!- erus` has joined.
02:18:34 <ihope> Idea: You're a wolf. You communicate by howling or not howling. At any given time, you know how many wolves are howling. Try to figure out what your friend is saying.
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02:56:00 * Dewi looks around the channel for people called 'Idea'
02:57:17 <oerjan> probably just a horrible misspelling. actually, "Dewi" looks sort of close.
03:10:29 <Dewi> oerjan: Can't be me. I communicate by howling, but I'm not a wolf.
03:11:16 <oerjan> well that's what _you_ think
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03:24:10 <pikhq> ihope: Unless the wolves use CDMA, I refuse.
03:24:27 <ihope> There, I just violated an Agoran contract.
03:24:38 <pikhq> Which contract?
03:25:01 <ihope> The pledge to ascend my current game of NetHack.
03:25:08 <pikhq> Ah.
03:25:18 <pikhq> Fool.
03:25:25 <pikhq> Where'd you die?
03:26:20 <ihope> On dungeon level 3, of course.
03:26:36 <ihope> That death was not nearly embarrassing enough.
03:29:36 * pikhq is curious
03:29:58 <pikhq> (what can I say? I'm curious about how people die in nethack)
03:32:18 <ihope> Essentially, I starved to death.
03:32:49 <ihope> Lessons learned from that game: Don't eat poisonous things, thereby decreasing your strength, then kick *three* sinks, thereby releasing the black puddings within, and cause them to divide by hitting them accidentally, then get most of your armor and both your weapons stolen by nymphs and become a wererat and summon so many pets that you have to kill some of them to move around.
03:32:59 <ihope> As told to #nethack a few minutes ago.
03:33:29 <ihope> Another lesson learned from that game: Don't pledge to win a game you've never won before.
03:33:37 <ihope> Do pledge to get the Bell if you've done that before.
03:37:31 <pikhq> Also, if you're hungry, kill your pet. :p
03:37:51 <pikhq> Tasty.
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03:41:37 <ihope> I killed my pet because he was in the way; I wasn't hungry. Then I starved to death anyway.
03:44:41 <ihope> I just started a new game and already my armor class is below what it was in my previous game.
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04:33:06 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: wait, you can *win* nethack?
04:34:02 <bsmntbombdood> nethack is one giant puddle of wtf
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06:32:17 <Slereah_> THEN WHO WAS PHONE?
06:43:21 <bsmntbombdood> huh?
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09:34:02 * Mony is back (gone 09:36:42)
09:34:05 <Mony> hi
09:35:18 <Slereah_> Hi.
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11:07:06 <tusho> hello
11:08:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hey I found an possible issue with TRDS, how does it handle the ? instruction
11:08:58 <AnMaster> it need to give same result on the next run
11:09:45 <Mony> hi tusho
11:29:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: heh, ask Mike
11:29:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does ccbi do the right thing there?
11:30:06 <Deewiant> no :-P
11:30:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, bet you don't want to need to change that ;P
11:30:29 <tusho> "it should. Make a new release."
11:30:34 <Deewiant> would be a simple change though
11:30:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, recording any ? yeah
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12:03:18 <tusho> Incorrect plurals. Discuss.
12:03:19 <tusho> Databii.
12:05:04 * Mony miam
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13:16:26 * Mony is away: I will be back !
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14:14:34 <tusho> Hmm.
14:14:41 <tusho> I type "publicly", not "publically".
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15:02:08 <ais523> hi tusho
15:02:12 <tusho> ....................
15:02:17 <tusho> I JUST UNFOCUSED MY IRC CLIENT
15:02:18 <tusho> THIS SECOND
15:02:27 * tusho stabs ais523's eyes out
15:02:39 * ais523 defends emself with a towel
15:02:42 <ais523> useful things, towels
15:02:50 <tusho> Aha! But...
15:02:54 * tusho brings out NUCLEAR TOWEL
15:03:02 <tusho> It's nuclear, so yours dissolves along with your eyes.
15:03:18 <ais523> well, I defeat that with a cluebat
15:03:24 <ais523> now can we get back to talking about esolangs?
15:03:37 <ais523> I went and implemented Shove
15:03:47 <ais523> I couldn't think of an efficient way to do it so I did it a really inefficient way
15:03:56 <tusho> heh
15:04:11 <ais523> at least the way I did it makes it clear what's going on
15:04:41 <tusho> what language?
15:04:44 <tusho> don't say shove.
15:04:45 <ais523> Perl
15:07:03 <tusho> http://code.eso-std.org/shove/shove.pl
15:09:46 <ais523> ok, I've put a few example programs there too now
15:09:58 <ais523> modelling the Underload stack-manipulation primitives
15:10:00 -!- kar8nga has joined.
15:10:04 <ais523> I have dup, concat, swap and enclose there
15:10:13 <ais523> pop, eval and quote are trivial
15:10:34 <ais523> so all I need now is a way to combine two programs into one and I'll have an Underload -> Shove compiler
15:11:00 <ais523> combining two programs into one isn't trivial in Shove but I've thought of a way to do it, now I'm writing a precompiler that I can use to generate the compiler
15:12:20 <tusho> ais523: shouldn't it say "by ais523"?
15:12:50 <tusho> looks cool though
15:12:58 <tusho> i think you'll need a stage-2 shove though
15:13:00 <ais523> quite possibly, but I tend to sign realname on things that have copyright
15:13:00 <tusho> that lets you define commands
15:13:03 <tusho> because "swap" is long
15:13:23 <ais523> tusho: yes, that would be important for practical use, atm I'm trying to work around the restrictions of the language though
15:13:32 <tusho> ais523: yes
15:13:37 <ais523> programming Shove feels a bit like programming a cross between Underload and SMITH, only 10 times more confusing
15:13:43 <tusho> also, nowadays I generally sign copyrighted things tusho
15:13:50 <tusho> i think it's sufficiently formal
15:13:59 <tusho> how many things have been published under pseudonyms? loads
15:14:09 <tusho> i don't see why it wouldn't stand up legally
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15:17:25 <ihope> Tzi-ga-na-tood.
15:17:32 <ais523> ihope: ?
15:17:38 <ihope> Ello.
15:17:43 <ais523> also, I put my new Shove interp online
15:17:47 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/shove/shove.pl
15:23:14 <ais523> hopefully it's clear enough for people to be able to deduce the spec from the interp
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15:23:25 <ais523> oh, and ! S and n aren't part of the language
15:23:31 <ais523> they're all NOPs, just with side effects
15:23:44 <ais523> which make it possible to produce output and to run the program in a reasonable length of time
15:34:01 <Deewiant> "NOPs with side effects" sounds like an oxymoron to me ;-)
15:35:32 <ais523> Deewiant: they're NOPs from the language's point of view
15:35:37 <ais523> I have a no I/O tarpit
15:35:43 <ais523> but certain nops happen to cause output-like side-effects
15:36:01 <Deewiant> yeah, I know what you meant, it just sounded a bit funny until I read the context :-)
15:36:20 <ais523> another interesting point about Shove: in Befunge, if you go into stringmode from right to left, you get the string as you wrote it; in Shove, if you do that, the string comes out upside-down
15:36:30 <ais523> or at least with v and ^ swapped and likewise for the other characters
15:36:47 <ais523> this is a consequence of the way I wrote the interp, but I deliberately wrote the interp like that so that that would happen
15:37:00 <Deewiant> ¿ʇɹoddns ǝpoɔıun ǝʌɐɥ ʇı sǝop os
15:37:21 <ais523> unfortunately no, I wanted to do that but it couldn't write messages sideways very well
15:37:30 <Deewiant> heh
15:37:32 <ais523> so I just restricted myself to command characters and left other characters alone
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15:44:50 <tusho> oh that's a nice css effect
15:44:57 <tusho> the background of blockquotes was fixed to all of them
15:45:00 <tusho> so it was like they were cut holes in the page
15:45:05 <tusho> to a fixed position background
15:45:13 <ais523> that is clever
15:46:00 <tusho> it's a bit too subtle though
15:46:02 <tusho> the shape is white on beige
15:46:08 <tusho> explains why I haven't noticed it before
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15:52:21 <MikeRiley> you about AnMaster???\
15:52:28 <AnMaster> hm?
15:52:30 <AnMaster> what?
15:52:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ask him about ?
15:53:03 <MikeRiley> got a couple questions on funge108....
15:53:13 <MikeRiley> been working on adding a mode for that in Rc/Funge-98...
15:53:21 <ais523> Deewiant: what's your ? question?
15:53:22 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well ? in TRDS, shouldn't it mean that when you jump back in time the old ip (not jumped) will make the same random choice at ?
15:53:25 <AnMaster> or?
15:53:31 <Deewiant> ais523: that
15:53:32 <ais523> oh, TRDS
15:53:35 <MikeRiley> would not make the same random choice...
15:53:50 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well fire away the questions
15:53:53 <MikeRiley> when an ip jumps back, the future no longer exists...
15:53:53 <ais523> I /thought/ ? was one of the better-specified commands
15:54:01 <AnMaster> I have been extremely busy with non-esoteric stuff the last week
15:54:06 <MikeRiley> so future events need not recur...
15:54:08 <AnMaster> and will probably be that the next week too
15:54:12 <AnMaster> so I may be hard to reach
15:54:17 <AnMaster> fire away the questions
15:54:30 <MikeRiley> ok,,,first,,,on your new fingerprint method,,,,what format are you expecting URIs to be??? can you give me an example??
15:54:57 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, iirc I refer to an RFC and even give some examples
15:55:08 <MikeRiley> do not remember seeing any examples....
15:55:15 <AnMaster> http://example.com/my-finger-print.html
15:55:17 <AnMaster> or whatever
15:55:19 <AnMaster> just URIs
15:55:31 <MikeRiley> just a though....web addresses are a bad idea....
15:55:36 <AnMaster> doesn't even have to be URLs, though I guess in practice they will be
15:55:59 <ais523> well, in that case I may end up calling a fingerprint apt://nethack to annoy people
15:56:09 <MikeRiley> for resource types, i was looking at f108: for the interpreter handprint, and fngr: for fingerprints...
15:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, is it a valid protocol defined in a RFC?
15:56:26 <AnMaster> ;P
15:56:37 <MikeRiley> using a web address is problematic,,,,
15:56:37 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea, but I see the links around every now and then
15:56:38 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, no, makes no sense at all IMO
15:56:40 <tusho> MikeRiley: use URIs
15:56:45 <tusho> MikeRiley: there's a spec for them
15:56:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, URI != URL
15:56:48 <tusho> (note: not URL)
15:57:00 <MikeRiley> and what should the defined format be???
15:57:05 <tusho> MikeRiley: here is the rfc:
15:57:12 <tusho> MikeRiley: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
15:57:18 <tusho> it's long; have fun
15:57:33 <tusho> there are uri manipulation libs for just about every language
15:57:35 <tusho> must be one for c
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15:59:02 <MikeRiley> asking an implementer to read through that rfc is not good, better to provide reasonable examples within your spec...
15:59:29 <ais523> wb ais523
15:59:33 <tusho> MikeRiley: so use a library!
15:59:48 <tusho> anyway all URIs are reasonable
15:59:50 <tusho> no reason to restrict them
16:00:04 <MikeRiley> so,,,i can just invent anything i want for them???
16:00:10 <tusho> no.
16:00:14 <tusho> anything that obeys http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
16:00:20 <MikeRiley> then, layout a spec,,,,
16:00:24 <tusho> MikeRiley: uhh
16:00:26 <tusho> you mean
16:00:28 <MikeRiley> the rfc covers them in a general form...
16:00:28 <tusho> duplicate the existing spec?
16:00:31 <MikeRiley> no,,,,
16:00:39 <tusho> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986 is a specification for URIs
16:00:44 <tusho> anything that obeys that is a valid URI
16:00:50 <MikeRiley> just like http: is a dfined subset....define a subset for this...
16:00:56 <tusho> no
16:00:57 <tusho> that's not the point
16:01:09 <tusho> the point is that it SHOULD use http://, gopher://, ftp://, whatever
16:01:15 <tusho> that's the point of using URIs
16:01:20 <MikeRiley> understood....
16:01:31 <MikeRiley> but anything before the :// ??? i can define whatever i want???
16:01:40 <MikeRiley> i think the resource type should be speced,,,,
16:01:48 <tusho> MikeRiley: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
16:01:55 <tusho> i don't know how many times I need to paste that link..
16:02:11 <MikeRiley> i do not intend to read through that document....too long
16:02:23 <tusho> MikeRiley: so use a pre-existing library for manipulating URIs in C
16:02:30 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Identifier more info
16:02:31 <ais523> ah, I finally found the thing before the ://
16:02:33 <ais523> it's at http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html
16:02:44 <ais523> they didn't define it in the RFC itself so they could change it later
16:02:51 <tusho> of course
16:02:53 <ais523> they just mandated IANA to keep a list, and that's where it is
16:02:54 <tusho> no reason to restrict it though
16:02:58 <tusho> just allow any valid URI
16:03:00 <MikeRiley> the rfc just says the a resource type has to be there, does not define them
16:03:02 <tusho> and then you won't have to update it
16:03:06 <tusho> srsly
16:03:09 <tusho> no reason keeping track of that list
16:03:15 <tusho> just allow anything that is a syntactically valid URI
16:03:23 <tusho> that is how URIs are used all the time and how they should be
16:03:33 <MikeRiley> of course....so my point,,,i can define whatever resource type i want???? so like fngr://???
16:03:47 <MikeRiley> so could do something like fngr://rcfunge98.trds
16:03:49 <MikeRiley> ???
16:03:50 <tusho> MikeRiley: don't, but it would be syntactically valid
16:03:50 <ais523> well, no, because it isn't a URI if you don't use a registered scheme, I don't think
16:03:56 <tusho> ah yes, ais523 is right
16:03:59 <tusho> ok, you need to keep track of the list
16:04:00 <tusho> not too hard
16:04:03 <ais523> it would be well-formed just not valid
16:04:08 <tusho> it's not like it has changed for what, years?
16:04:16 <tusho> MikeRiley: in practice the URI will probably be
16:04:29 <tusho> http://your.site/funge/fingerprints/name
16:04:37 <tusho> and have that link to documentation
16:04:43 <ais523> what about an irc:// URI to a fingerprint?
16:04:45 <ais523> that would be great
16:04:48 <tusho> ais523: hah, yes
16:04:50 <tusho> or mailto
16:04:52 <MikeRiley> your.site is a bad idea....
16:04:56 <tusho> MikeRiley: no, it's not
16:05:01 <MikeRiley> yes it is....
16:05:03 <tusho> URIs are used as universal identificaiton and have been for quite a file
16:05:07 <ais523> actually irc:// is not on the list
16:05:09 <tusho> it is the Right Thing
16:05:09 <ais523> which surprises me
16:05:11 <MikeRiley> example#1 catseye which defined some specs no longer exist
16:05:17 <tusho> MikeRiley: yes it does
16:05:18 <tusho> catseye.tc
16:05:24 <tusho> anyway, URIs by definition aern't meant to change
16:05:24 <MikeRiley> different address tho
16:05:25 <ais523> but I agree with MikeRiley to some extent, especially as not everyone has a website
16:05:31 <tusho> ais523: that's why ESO is offering them
16:05:32 <tusho> remember?
16:05:34 <ais523> tusho: that doesn't prevent them changing in practice
16:05:38 <MikeRiley> example#2, the fingerprints that i have defined are on a different address...
16:05:41 <tusho> http://fingerprints.eso-std.org/...
16:05:47 <ais523> you change ESO's naming scheme every week afaict
16:05:53 <tusho> no
16:05:55 <ais523> next week it'll be befunge.eso-std.org/fingerprints
16:06:00 <tusho> no, it won't
16:06:04 <tusho> you don't understand what i'm saying
16:06:13 <ais523> yes I do, I'm just disagreeing
16:06:19 <MikeRiley> websites are NOT as constant, and in my opinion should not be part of URIs for fingerprints....
16:06:23 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:06:30 <tusho> MikeRiley: URIs are URIs whether you'd like them to be URIs are not.
16:06:42 <tusho> If you don't support a certain type of URIs you don't support URIs at all.
16:06:52 <ais523> well in that case it shouldn't be "URI" but some other sort of identifier
16:06:58 <tusho> no it shouldn't
16:06:59 <AnMaster> back
16:07:01 <tusho> you'd end up reinventing URIs
16:07:05 <tusho> which is pointless
16:07:14 <MikeRiley> no, would still be in the format of uris,,,,just different information...
16:07:23 <tusho> MikeRiley: the format of URIs includes the protocols.
16:07:27 <tusho> If you disallow a protocol you do not support URIs.
16:07:28 <MikeRiley> i agree...
16:07:39 <tusho> I highly reccomend you just stick with URIs.
16:07:40 <MikeRiley> i think the protocol should be there,,,and be defined for handprints and fingerprints
16:07:52 <tusho> That's anti-ethical to the whole idea of URIs!
16:08:00 <tusho> They're meant to design a resource protocol-agnostically!
16:08:07 <tusho> er, not resource
16:08:09 <tusho> you know what I mean
16:08:24 <AnMaster> I will stick to plain URIs
16:08:36 <AnMaster> because I want to be able to use gopher or whatever if I want
16:08:45 <ais523> tusho: the problem is URIs aren't actually very good at their job
16:08:45 <tusho> AnMaster: good :)
16:08:54 <tusho> ais523: URIs are fine at their job. People aren't.
16:08:55 <MikeRiley> makes no sense to me to name fingerprints this way...
16:08:56 <ais523> because people don't control Internet locations indefinitely in real life
16:08:59 <AnMaster> anyway the risk of collision is *much* higher currently with 4 letters than with a URL
16:09:01 <AnMaster> URI*
16:09:02 <tusho> [[[ What makes a cool URI?
16:09:03 <tusho> A cool URI is one which does not change.
16:09:03 <tusho> What sorts of URI change?
16:09:03 <tusho> URIs don't change: people change them.]]] - TBL
16:09:15 <MikeRiley> i agree about the 4 letters,,,,that was definitely a problem...
16:09:17 <ais523> tusho: or their webhost changes them, or their financial situation
16:09:21 <tusho> ais523: purl.net
16:09:40 <ais523> tusho: what if it goes down tomorrow
16:09:44 <ais523> I mean, seriously?
16:09:49 <ais523> it probably won't happen but it might
16:09:49 <tusho> ais523: it won't. It's got a huge amount of backing
16:09:49 <MikeRiley> not there have been any collisions yet,,,very few people have defined fingerprints.....
16:09:56 <tusho> it's not just Yet Another Service
16:10:18 <ais523> tusho: that attitude strikes me as being overconfident
16:10:23 <ais523> no matter what website it's with respect to
16:10:51 <tusho> ais523: purl has got a huge, huge amount of backing and effort & research to stay totally persistent put in it
16:10:51 <pikhq> Actually, a URI is meant to just *identify* the resource... Not necessarily point out where it is. urn:isbn:1234567890123, for example, is a valid URI... Well, except that that's not by any means a valid ISBN. :p
16:10:56 <tusho> pikhq: Yes.
16:11:02 <ais523> pikhq: yes
16:11:08 <pikhq> It seems like at least one person did not understand that.
16:11:15 <pikhq> Though I might just be missing something.
16:11:22 <tusho> MikeRiley, I think
16:11:25 <ais523> even so, I think it should probably have a date involved if you're going to base a URI on an URL
16:11:33 <ais523> because the URL might end up owned by someone else eventually
16:11:51 <tusho> URLs are a subset of URIs
16:11:57 <tusho> "basing a URI on a URL" is a silly concept
16:12:23 <MikeRiley> which is back to my point, a web address is not relevent in a URI...
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16:12:39 <tusho> MikeRiley: of course it is
16:12:39 <MikeRiley> unless it is the URI is for a web based service...
16:12:55 <MikeRiley> fingerprints are not web-based services....
16:13:01 <MikeRiley> they are features in an interprter,,,,
16:13:05 <tusho> that's not how it works
16:13:11 <ais523> well, I think it should be a data:// URI
16:13:20 <ais523> that contains all the information needed to implement the fingerprint
16:13:28 <ais523> e.g. the code for the fingerprint encoded in base64
16:13:29 <MikeRiley> data:// is reasonable....
16:13:37 <MikeRiley> and i can put anything i want after that???
16:13:42 <ais523> MikeRiley: yes, but my suggestion is unreasonable on other grounds
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16:13:49 <MikeRiley> which are???
16:13:52 <ais523> MikeRiley: there's a defined format for data://
16:13:57 <tusho> MikeRiley: you must support all URIs
16:14:02 <tusho> otherwise you do not support URIs at all
16:14:04 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,so we are back to where i started...
16:14:07 <ais523> MikeRiley: if you're going to have the entire code of your fingerprint in your program, then why bother with fingerprinting at all?
16:14:08 <tusho> and therefore will not conform to befunge-108
16:14:36 <MikeRiley> all my fingerprint code is in my interpreter,,,,but it still requires the fingerprint mechanism to overload A-Z....
16:15:01 <MikeRiley> i am trying to figure out how these should appear???
16:15:05 <ais523> yes, in the interpreter makes sense, in the program doesn't
16:15:23 <MikeRiley> when i use (,,,,,what should appear in the 0gnirts to load TRDS for example???
16:15:38 <tusho> MikeRiley: http://your.site/befunge/fingerprints/trds
16:15:39 <tusho> or whatever
16:15:42 <ais523> the problem is that funge-108 fingerprints will likely have names which are far too long for practical use
16:15:53 <tusho> mailto:your.emai+trds@your.email.domain
16:15:54 <MikeRiley> your.site is unacceptable to me,....my site may change in the future....
16:15:57 <ais523> just look at any OpenOffice.org macro language source and you'll see what I mean
16:16:00 <tusho> MikeRiley: will your email?
16:16:04 <MikeRiley> probably
16:16:06 <ais523> mine definitely will
16:16:13 <tusho> MikeRiley: ok, what won't?
16:16:18 <MikeRiley> anything related to the web is not a constant,,,,
16:16:34 <MikeRiley> i think fingerprints should have names that can be relied upon to be constant....
16:16:48 <tusho> a URI changing is a bug, a flaw, an error
16:16:50 <tusho> in practice, yes, they do
16:16:52 <tusho> so pick one that won't
16:16:59 <tusho> pick a protocol that doesn't rely on something mallable
16:17:05 <tusho> ais linked to a list of them
16:17:07 <MikeRiley> to pick one that will not,,,you cannot use any web address within the uri....
16:17:12 <tusho> correct
16:17:24 <tusho> http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html
16:17:26 <tusho> pick one
16:17:51 <tusho> MikeRiley: in particular
16:17:54 <tusho> urn:
16:17:57 <tusho> is probably relevant to this
16:18:06 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Name
16:19:02 <MikeRiley> so something like: urn://fingerprint:rcfunge98:trds ?????
16:19:11 <tusho> MikeRiley: why do you keep making things up?
16:19:16 <tusho> why not read the definition of URNs...
16:19:17 <MikeRiley> i am not....
16:19:20 <MikeRiley> just did....
16:19:25 <tusho> yes, you just made up urn://fingerprint:rcfunge98:tds
16:19:40 <tusho> MikeRiley: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2141.txt
16:19:41 <tusho> it's short.
16:19:45 <tusho> a lot shorter than the URI definition
16:19:51 <tusho> a few pages
16:19:58 <MikeRiley> ok, show me an example of how YOU would specify the trds fingerprint....
16:20:07 <AnMaster> http://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces
16:20:20 <tusho> MikeRiley: why?
16:20:25 <tusho> it's not my responsibility...
16:20:27 <MikeRiley> i want to see what you think it should be....
16:20:32 <tusho> you choose what kind of URI you want to use, e.g. URN
16:20:36 <tusho> then you make one of those...
16:20:38 <tusho> pretty simple
16:21:00 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,in that case, i will invent my own for my fingerprints....
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16:21:39 <tusho> MikeRiley: uh, as long as it accords to the spec...
16:21:46 <MikeRiley> and when somebody comes up with uris for fingerprints made by somebody else,,,,i will implement them then...
16:21:50 <tusho> if it doesn't, you can't use it, because it's not an URN (or not a URI or whatever)
16:21:54 <tusho> and...
16:21:57 <tusho> you don't need to do anything special
16:22:01 <tusho> just look up fingerprints by their uri
16:22:02 <tusho> instead of name
16:22:06 <tusho> it's trivial!
16:22:18 <tusho> you have a database of installed fingerprints, instead of name, the key is the URI
16:22:24 <MikeRiley> which means i can do something like: fngr://rcfunge98/trds.....
16:22:29 <tusho> no
16:22:29 <MikeRiley> that follows the rules of a uri....
16:22:33 <tusho> it isn't a valid URI
16:22:38 <tusho> because the protocol is not one of the registered protocols
16:22:41 <MikeRiley> does not matter that fngr is not already defined by somebody else...
16:22:44 <tusho> yes
16:22:45 <tusho> it does
16:22:52 <MikeRiley> does the uri spec say that it must be pre-registered???
16:23:02 <tusho> that is what a URI is.
16:23:06 <tusho> the protocol must be a valid URI protocol.
16:23:11 <tusho> IANA maintains the list.
16:23:14 <MikeRiley> the little of it that i read just sad that you had to specify a resource type...and not what the types are...
16:23:37 <tusho> "the little of it that I read" precisely
16:23:39 <tusho> the little of it.
16:23:52 <MikeRiley> i accept that....too long for me to waste my time reading it....
16:23:58 <MikeRiley> i would prefer to see reasonable examples....
16:24:06 <MikeRiley> or else i will make my own way of doing it....
16:24:20 <tusho> MikeRiley: go ahead, as long as you don't care about funge-108 compliance.
16:24:38 <MikeRiley> i guess at this point,,,i do not....since nobody is willing to define what it should look like....
16:24:52 <tusho> MikeRiley: I can copy and paste the rfc if you'd like?
16:24:56 <MikeRiley> i will use my method,,,which will work in my interpeter...
16:25:00 <tusho> i've told you exactly how it will look like
16:25:03 <MikeRiley> i am not going to read the rfc....
16:25:04 <tusho> by linking you to the definitive source
16:25:07 <tusho> you just refuse to read it.
16:25:15 <MikeRiley> i agree, i refuse to read it...
16:25:22 <tusho> have fun
16:25:25 <MikeRiley> i will....
16:26:01 <MikeRiley> and when somebody defines actual uris for non-rcs fingerprints,,,i will provide the support for them then....
16:26:09 <MikeRiley> and my fingerprints will use my specification...
16:26:11 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, examples are any valid URI
16:26:15 <tusho> MikeRiley seems to think that you have to special case it.
16:26:25 <AnMaster> I got no clue what you want instead...
16:26:27 <tusho> AnMaster: don't bother. he asks what a URI is.
16:26:33 <tusho> AnMaster: if you point him to the rfc he refuses to use it
16:26:36 <tusho> just let him implement whatever...
16:26:51 <MikeRiley> what i want, is a clear cut description (not referringt to an rfc) that describes what funge108 expects in the 0gnirts....
16:26:59 <MikeRiley> not a vague idea...
16:27:00 <tusho> MikeRiley: ANY URI
16:27:02 <tusho> ANY URI AT ALL
16:27:02 <MikeRiley> something specific....
16:27:03 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, ANY valid URI
16:27:05 <AnMaster> any at all
16:27:06 <tusho> for a definition of a URI: SEE THE RFC
16:27:09 <tusho> that is what defines a URI
16:27:13 <tusho> there is NO MORE WE CAN SAY
16:27:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, or do you want me to copy paste the entire rfc into the specs?
16:27:33 <MikeRiley> as i said,,,when somebody provieds me with uris for non-rcs fingerprints, i will implement those....my fingerprints will use my own...
16:27:35 <tusho> AnMaster: he wants you to rewrite it in a few pages, it seems
16:27:48 <AnMaster> well that is impossible tusho!
16:27:55 <tusho> of course
16:27:58 <MikeRiley> i prefer examples of what things should look like rather than long specs....
16:28:22 <Deewiant> so give him an example of a Funge-108 program and have him implement Funge-108 based on that ;-)
16:28:55 <tusho> Deewiant: *g*
16:30:18 <ais523> anyway, have a look at Shove, everyone, I'm quite amazed at how unlike Befunge it manages to be whilst seeming similar from a distance
16:30:40 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/shove/
16:30:46 <tusho> i looked at it
16:30:46 <tusho> quite nice
16:31:19 <ais523> the issue is that the program tends to disintegrate after it's been run for a bit
16:31:23 <ais523> because all the rows get out of sync
16:32:06 <ais523> anyway I thought of an improvement to Underload to make it much easier to compile
16:32:18 <ais523> delimit code strings with {} and data strings with []
16:32:28 <ais523> data strings can't be run with ^, code strings can't be output with S
16:32:40 <ais523> that means that you don't have trouble when compiling it into other concatenative langs
16:32:59 <ais523> oh, and you can't use * to concatenate a code string to a data string
16:33:30 <ais523> () would still be a combined code string/data string, but you shouldn't use it in programs you want to compile
16:33:31 <tusho> how about data strings = ""
16:33:32 <tusho> :P
16:33:35 <ais523> and probably you'd need two versions of a
16:33:39 <ais523> tusho: nesting?
16:33:40 <tusho> with proper escaping
16:33:48 <tusho> "Hello, world!\n"S
16:33:49 <ais523> ah, proper escaping would help
16:34:01 <ais523> then a would generate code strings
16:34:05 <tusho> and keep () as just code
16:34:07 <ais523> and quines would be a whole lot more difficult
16:34:17 <tusho> ais523: yes
16:34:19 <tusho> * would depend, though
16:34:28 <tusho> "a"(b)* would be invalid
16:34:31 <tusho> as would (b)"a"*
16:34:44 <ais523> yes, that's what I was saying
16:34:55 <ais523> concatenating data and code both make sense, but not concatenating them to each other
16:35:18 <tusho> yes
16:35:25 <tusho> brb
16:35:32 <ais523> biarb
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17:13:02 * Mony is back (gone 03:56:37)
17:13:18 <Mony> I come back from the skate park :)
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17:17:42 <tusho> B to the A to the C K
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21:21:07 <Mony> i'm going to try to implent conditions in my "language"
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23:11:01 <Mony> does anyone have an good idea for my conditions ?
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23:26:41 <tusho> Mony: not really
23:27:06 <Mony> and bad ideas ? :P
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23:36:39 <tusho> none
23:36:40 <tusho> :P
23:45:49 <Mony> may the night give me ideas :D
23:45:52 * Mony is away: zZz
23:46:03 <Mony> good night guys ;)
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2008-08-05
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04:30:48 <psygnisfive> man
04:30:51 <psygnisfive> im listening to twit
04:30:56 <psygnisfive> and they have never heard of "lulz"
04:32:42 <pikhq> Jebus.
04:32:51 <pikhq> What a twit.
04:33:05 <psygnisfive> its a podcast :P
04:33:13 <psygnisfive> infact, its THE podcast
04:33:22 <psygnisfive> the most popular, excluding NPR
04:36:38 <pikhq> Twits.
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05:35:32 <pikhq> GregorR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blFmzWJq1GI "Pook toy! Media pook ah!"
05:35:35 <pikhq> I love you, man.
05:43:37 <pikhq> cherez: You do realise you're not logged in on AIM any more, right?
05:45:04 <cherez> pikhq: I just noticed I had physically unplugged my network cable by accident.
05:45:22 <pikhq> Brilliant.
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08:11:22 <Mony> lol
08:11:35 <Mony> hum... bye
08:11:39 <Mony> see ya !
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12:11:03 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i've made a new program, like this here <Mony> http://rafb.net/p/9T7NMl68.html.. my version: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/81255/
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13:01:58 <tusho> vab is popular, I see :p
13:12:46 <tusho> hi SimonRC
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17:29:23 <Mony> hi there
17:32:00 <Tritonio_> hi
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20:44:57 <tusho> SimonRC: hi
20:45:18 <SimonRC> tusho: hang about...
20:45:23 <SimonRC> how did you know I was back?
20:45:30 <tusho> SimonRC: magic, duh
20:45:40 <tusho> also I'm behind you
20:45:42 <SimonRC> seriously
20:45:57 <tusho> SimonRC: i didn't
20:45:59 <tusho> good timing I guess
20:46:03 <SimonRC> :-(
20:46:12 <SimonRC> it would be a darn useful thing to know
20:46:22 <tusho> SimonRC: if it makes you happier you can believe it was magic
20:46:29 <SimonRC> no
20:46:45 <SimonRC> I can't think of a better way than continuously polling my status
20:46:52 <tusho> SimonRC: that's what most irc clients do
20:47:02 <tusho> they do /w #channel every now and then
20:47:24 <SimonRC> hm, handy
20:47:36 <tusho> err /who
20:47:51 <SimonRC> I guessed
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20:48:14 <tusho> anyway I can't actually remember why I pinged you, I think it was that I'd remembered you liking lemon demon in the past of this channel and i just got his newest album in the post today so I guess it was some kind of subconcious link
20:48:16 * tusho shrugs
20:48:26 <SimonRC> tusho: ok
20:48:40 * tusho considers nickpinging everyone
20:48:52 <tusho> and then coming up with a valid reason to have pinged each one of them individually
20:49:24 <SimonRC> so...
20:49:37 <SimonRC> Agatha Heterodyne or Helen Narbon?
20:54:02 <psygnisfive> heterodyne is an awesome name
20:54:16 <SimonRC> um, yeah
20:54:34 <SimonRC> I was thinking of which you/I prefer
20:55:00 <psygnisfive> mate, i dont know wtf youre asking about, all i know is, heterodyne is an awesome name.
20:55:10 <SimonRC> :-(
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20:55:41 <psygnisfive> why :-(?
20:56:44 <SimonRC> nvm
20:56:57 <psygnisfive> weirdo :D
20:58:09 <SimonRC> They are both fictional female engineer/geek geniuses (and quite similar in appearance).
20:58:42 <SimonRC> Agatha is from Girl Genius and Helen is from Narbonic.
20:58:49 <SimonRC> webcomics I follow
20:59:06 <psygnisfive> ok
20:59:10 <psygnisfive> why are you explaining this?
20:59:16 <psygnisfive> it doesnt matter whether i understand or not
20:59:23 <Deewiant> don't know about Helen but Agatha for the win
21:00:00 <SimonRC> Helen is an evil mad scientist, in a comic strip that's about 50% metadata.
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21:03:51 <SimonRC> <Neddie Seagoon>Our path was blocked by the icy river Kopete. There's nothing worse than a cold Kopete!</Neddie Seagoon>
21:04:01 <SimonRC> possibly not the origin of the name
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21:12:11 <SimonRC> hi
21:18:56 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: agatha is theoretically significantly less evil than helen
21:19:13 <RodgerTheGreat> and has successfully built cooler gadgets and giant robots, etc
21:19:52 <SimonRC> OTOH, Helen is cuter and more dangerous
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21:21:05 <SimonRC> hi
21:21:42 <RodgerTheGreat> that first point is debatable and difficult to determine with certainty because Shaenon Garrity just plain isn't as skilled an artist as Phil Foglio
21:23:06 <SimonRC> yeah
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21:56:41 <lament> I have come to restore law and order!
21:58:14 <tusho> lament: hah
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22:11:30 <SimonRC> so...
22:11:36 <tusho> so...
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22:11:59 <SimonRC> Linus Torvalds walks into a bar, with a mernel module down the front of his trousers...
22:12:02 <SimonRC> *Kernel
22:12:23 <SimonRC> at the bar is RMS, who says:
22:12:50 <SimonRC> "Linus, you've got a kernel module down the front of your trousers."
22:13:06 <SimonRC> Linus replies "I know, it's driving me nuts."
22:13:14 <SimonRC> *rimshot*
22:13:19 <SimonRC> or possibly:
22:13:21 <SimonRC> *headshot*
22:23:43 * tusho kills SimonRC
22:23:49 <tusho> by cracking his skull with a plastic fork
22:23:56 <lilja> :\
22:24:04 * Mony is away: zZz
22:24:17 <SimonRC> tusho: why?
22:24:24 <tusho> SimonRC: that was a terrible joke
22:24:24 <SimonRC> ah, the pun
22:24:31 <SimonRC> I thought I was elsenet for a moment
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22:24:49 <Mony> good night every body
22:24:55 <SimonRC> 'night
22:25:24 <Mony> thx
22:25:57 <tusho> bye Mony
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22:28:33 <lament> Mony: "every body" means "every corpse"
22:29:00 <tusho> lament: he's french and not very good at english
22:29:03 <tusho> cut him some slack
22:29:46 <Mony> oh
22:29:47 <Mony> sorry :s
22:29:58 <Mony> i turn off my PC
22:30:01 <Mony> bye
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22:30:35 <tusho> ok, encountered made me laugh
22:35:57 * SimonRC goes to bed.
22:36:13 <lament> you turn off your pc bye!
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23:16:56 <Tritonio_> tusho, what about encountered?
23:17:38 <tusho> hmm
23:17:41 <tusho> i thought it was typo'd
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2008-08-06
00:16:18 <pikhq> You know, I think we need Egobot back.
00:16:25 <pikhq> Only much, much more robust.
00:16:31 <tusho> that would be botte
00:16:37 <tusho> If Only It Were Done(TM)
00:17:16 <pikhq> If only I'd bother.
00:17:38 <tusho> pikhq: botte's planned to have fun stuff like an #esoteric link log
00:17:46 <tusho> '.l url description' in the channel adds it to the link log
00:17:55 <tusho> and an atom feed will be provided
00:18:13 <pikhq> I think it'd need to start with being robust.
00:18:22 <pikhq> Which Egobot sure as hell was not.
00:18:27 <pikhq> Didn't it crash daily?
00:18:51 <tusho> Yes.
00:18:54 <tusho> Botte should be pretty stable.
00:19:09 <tusho> It'll be written in Ruby (yeah, yeah, I know you hate it)
00:19:26 <tusho> but C++ programs, especially ones written like they're in C like egobot, generally are prone to crash more than scripting language ones
00:19:35 <tusho> esp. since egobot's parser was ... rusty, to say the least
00:21:07 <pikhq> Bullshit.
00:21:14 <pikhq> C++ programs can be written damned well.
00:21:20 <tusho> pikhq: I didn't deny that, of course.
00:21:28 <pikhq> And, actually, I'm ashamed at Gregor for *not* doing it right.
00:21:34 <tusho> But what I'm saying is for a bloomin' IRC bot, C++ is an unneccesary fuss.
00:21:37 <pikhq> Of course, that was one of his earlier programs.
00:21:40 <pikhq> Okay, okay.
00:21:43 <pikhq> Tcl it is.
00:21:43 <pikhq> :p
00:21:45 <tusho> :p
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02:43:49 <GregorR> Interesting updates to calamari's Facebook page recently: Mormon->no religion, joined the groups "I'm a Secular Humanist" and "Ex-Mormons Worldwide".
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04:47:06 <lament> traitor!!!
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09:22:08 <Mony> hi there !
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12:32:44 <Mony> bye
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14:03:58 <AnMaster> tusho, when you see ais523 please point him to http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937 \o/
14:04:06 <AnMaster> my first arch linux package is c-intercal :D
14:04:14 <tusho> AnMaster: given up on gentoo?
14:04:23 <tusho> http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-${pkgver/./-}.tgz
14:04:23 <AnMaster> tusho, nah
14:04:27 <tusho> fun bug in the web interface
14:04:40 <AnMaster> tusho, I just use arch on this old p3
14:04:44 <AnMaster> still gentoo on my amd64
14:04:56 <tusho> this off-handedly reminds me that I need to write that article about os x
14:05:06 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
14:05:09 <AnMaster> bbl guests
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14:11:37 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed it seems the web interface can't handle bash substitutions, but the program used to build packages can do that
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15:36:01 <tusho> concatenative languages are fun
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15:39:21 <AnMaster> blergh I don't understand how to translate the versioning of clc-intercal
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17:18:01 <ais523> hi tusho
17:18:06 <tusho> hi ais523
17:18:14 <tusho> bad time, I'm about to disappear soon for ~25m
17:18:25 <ais523> ok, that's fine, it normally takes me about that long to read my email
17:18:30 <ais523> and I'm not very communicative during that time
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18:17:55 <Mony> ruse
18:19:31 <ais523> Mony: ?
18:20:18 <Mony> oh... in french, we say "Re", when we see again a person
18:20:49 <Mony> but, i say "ruse", 'cause i think it's pretiest
18:20:57 <ais523> ah
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19:25:58 <Mony> bye
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19:33:33 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
19:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937 <-- c-intercal
19:34:31 <ais523> AnMaster: is that your fault or did you just come across it?
19:34:43 <AnMaster> ais523, look at maintainer :P
19:34:46 <ais523> ah, it's yours by the look of it
19:34:57 <AnMaster> ais523, is there some RSS feed or news letter for new C-INTERCAL releases?
19:35:04 * AnMaster ducks
19:35:07 <ais523> news://alt.lang.intercal
19:35:13 <AnMaster> hahah
19:35:20 <ais523> no, seriously, that's the official place
19:35:23 * AnMaster fires up usenet client
19:35:26 <ais523> and it doesn't seem to be used by anyone else atm
19:35:32 <ais523> although it ought to be
19:35:45 <ais523> it's known to have a large number of lurkers despite having no traffic
19:35:57 <ais523> so it's an unusual case of a newsgroup that lots of people read but nobody writes in
19:36:06 <ais523> well, large for esolang stuff
19:36:08 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it got traffic "Get Green-Fuel Solution$$$ 65482"
19:36:09 <AnMaster> :P
19:36:11 <AnMaster> I hate spam
19:36:24 <ais523> oh, I just ignore the spam
19:36:30 <AnMaster> same
19:36:36 <AnMaster> but there is no good spam filter
19:37:09 <ais523> besides it's so dead that even the spam doesn't come up very often
19:37:25 <olsner> at work, I have like 30k actual e-mails and (so far) 0 spam e-mails :D
19:39:08 <ErkiDerLoony> Does anyone know a free news server?
19:39:21 <ErkiDerLoony> Because I changed my provider and the new one does not have a news server ...
19:39:40 <AnMaster> ErkiDerLoony, newszilla6.xs4all.nl is a free ipv6 readonly one
19:39:53 <AnMaster> don't know of any that allow posting
19:39:59 <AnMaster> apart from google groups
19:40:06 <ErkiDerLoony> Hm, k.
19:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and what did you mean "fault" with the package
19:41:50 <ais523> AnMaster: responsibility
19:41:59 <AnMaster> thanks that better
19:42:07 <AnMaster> it is as if you didn't like packages ;P
19:42:22 <AnMaster> ais523, however the Arch guidelines say version number should be same as upstream
19:42:26 <AnMaster> which will cause issues of course
19:43:08 <Deewiant> use major.minor.major
19:43:29 <AnMaster> well they prefer same as upstream exactly
19:43:38 <ais523> well, let them figure it out
19:43:48 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway AUR = user maintained
19:43:54 <ais523> eso stuff is useful for pressure-testing other people's systems
19:43:55 <AnMaster> not part of official repo
19:44:04 <AnMaster> oh yes it is
19:44:13 <ais523> for instance CLC-INTERCAL exposed a bug in mandb that was capable of crashing man completely
19:44:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I doubt it will ever become part of the community repo
19:44:25 <ais523> apparently it doesn't like man pages to have spaces in their filenames
19:44:42 <AnMaster> well spaces in filenames
19:44:49 <AnMaster> why the heck did CLC-INTERCAL want that?
19:44:58 <AnMaster> ais523, also it isn't like anyone except debian use mandb
19:45:12 <ais523> how do they get apropos databases then?
19:45:17 <AnMaster> makewhatis
19:45:29 <ais523> ah, good to know
19:45:39 <ais523> I'll stick with my autoconf thing anyway, as it should recognise that mandb isn't needed
19:45:40 <AnMaster> NAME
19:45:40 <AnMaster> makewhatis - Create the whatis database
19:46:07 <AnMaster> ais523, makewhatis is run by cron once a week here
19:46:28 <ais523> well an install isn't really an install if your program isn't properly installed until next week
19:46:41 <AnMaster> ais523, hah
19:47:00 <AnMaster> anyway I have to patch the change of /usr/share/info/dir away on all systems
19:47:08 <AnMaster> because it cause errors when you install to DESTDIR
19:47:11 <AnMaster> which is the normal way
19:47:22 <ais523> AnMaster: I downgraded that to a warning for the next version
19:47:25 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact arch strips all info pages by default
19:49:14 <ais523> anyway I tried C-INTERCAL on cygwin, it worked 'out of the box'
19:49:19 <ais523> -F didn't work but I wasn't really sure if it would
19:49:22 <AnMaster> you told us
19:49:38 <ais523> hmm... what OS should I try next?
19:49:46 <AnMaster> ais523, IRIX?
19:49:48 <ais523> the issue is that I've done pretty much all the OSs I have access to now
19:49:48 <AnMaster> Sun OS?
19:49:55 <AnMaster> ais523, ah well
19:49:57 <ais523> AnMaster: SunOS was the first OS I ran it on
19:50:01 <AnMaster> hah ok
19:50:04 <ais523> before I even got a computer that ran Linux
19:50:14 <AnMaster> does it still work on that?
19:50:21 <ais523> I don't see why it wouldn't
19:50:28 <ais523> although I'll probably test again some time before the next release
19:50:36 <ais523> it needs a bit of tweaking to work around the limitations of Sun lex
19:50:41 <ais523> but there's information on that in the README
19:51:04 <ais523> (basically you need to preallocate memory with a set of directives, the error messages tell you exactly what to do so it's surprising that lex doesn't just do it itself
19:51:06 <ais523> s/$/)/
19:51:26 <AnMaster> ais523, what about Solaris then?
19:51:33 <ais523> I don't have a copy of it to try
19:51:41 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc it is free nowdays
19:51:45 <AnMaster> could work in a vm
19:51:52 <ais523> yes, there's OpenSolaris
19:52:04 <ais523> although all sorts of interesting questions for that were opened up by the SCO vs. Novell case
19:52:04 <AnMaster> no even normal solaris too
19:52:20 <ais523> apparently SCO sold Sun a license to open-source Solaris that they weren't allowed to sell
19:52:29 <ais523> and nobody's entirely sure what the result of that will be
19:52:56 <AnMaster> wait SCO wasn't allowed? by who?
19:53:25 <ais523> AnMaster: basically they were trying to sell something that wasn't theirs in the first place
19:53:33 <ais523> which was the rights to open-source AT&T Unix
19:53:39 <ais523> at least that's what the court ruled
19:53:42 <AnMaster> weird
19:53:50 <AnMaster> so why did they even try to sell it?
19:53:57 <ais523> to get the money?
19:54:40 <AnMaster> well I mean, if AT&T owns the stuff how could they sell any of what they tried to claim they did
19:54:51 <ais523> well, they said they owned it and presumably Sun believed them
19:54:58 <ais523> and they claimed they owned it in the courts too, they just lost
19:55:31 <AnMaster> but solaris isn't based on AT&T unix is it?
19:55:45 <ais523> not sure, probably bits of it are
19:55:59 <ais523> I can't imagine that it's all BSD
19:56:13 <AnMaster> some of it is probably from scratch
19:56:53 <ais523> well, they can open-source those bits legally
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19:56:59 <ais523> but bits of it are likely to not be owned by them
19:57:03 <ais523> nor SCO, as it turned out
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19:57:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and what did AT&T say then?
19:57:48 <ais523> well, Novell claim that they own the copyrights now
19:57:52 <ais523> which hasn't been proven either way
19:57:58 <ais523> but SCO claimed to have bought them from Novell
19:58:07 <ais523> and Novell have proved that they didn't sell them to them
19:58:13 <pikhq> SCO vs. Novell went to court a while back.
19:58:26 <ais523> pikhq: yes, that's what I'm talking about, I'm giving a quick summary for AnMaster
19:58:40 <pikhq> It is the verdict of the court that Novell owns the copyright to UNIX.
19:58:49 <AnMaster> how did they do that?
19:58:51 <pikhq> Well, those parts which are under copyright at all.
19:58:52 <ais523> pikhq: not quite, it is the verdict of the court that Novell didn't sell it to SCO
19:59:14 <ais523> I don't think it's been conclusively proved that Novell ever owned it in the first place, but it does seem plausible
19:59:18 <ais523> it certainly changed hands a lot
19:59:23 <pikhq> (a very, *very* solid chunk of UNIX is in the public domain, thanks to AT&T vs. BSDi)
19:59:42 <ais523> pikhq: yes, I agree with that, BSD is pretty safe
19:59:47 <ais523> but there are non-BSD Unices
20:00:03 <AnMaster> well linux isn't based on that either
20:00:07 <AnMaster> so not an issue for linux
20:00:15 <ais523> well, obviously, SCO were claiming it were but nobody believes them
20:00:42 <ais523> it's pretty clear Linux was written from scratch, even if it does have a file called errno.h in it
20:00:59 <AnMaster> of course it does, that is in the damn POSIX specs
20:01:07 <ais523> (most of SCO's arguments seem obviously wrong to a programmer but might possibly confuse a non-tech-savvy judge)
20:01:55 <pikhq> Actually, that case ruled that early non-BSD Unices were public domain, IIRC.
20:02:07 <pikhq> (ones before AT&T started selling UNIX)
20:02:44 <ais523> but it's been modified since then
20:02:50 <pikhq> True.
20:03:20 <pikhq> Of course, the Unices not in public domain or under the BSD license are not exactly floating around in the open...
20:03:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm?
20:04:02 <AnMaster> I'm afraid I didn't understand that idiom(?)
20:04:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, ^
20:04:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Meaning: you're not exactly going to *see* various non-free Unices' source code.
20:04:54 <AnMaster> indeed
20:06:07 <pikhq> Of course, SCO seems to operate under the influence of a variety of hallucinogens, explaining their court case.
20:06:08 <pikhq> ;)
20:06:34 <ais523> well, there's a major conspiracy theory that someone was paying them to keep it going as long as possible
20:06:47 <ais523> also it increased their share price for a bit while people thought they actually had a chance, that didn't last long though
20:07:27 <pikhq> Actually, the only conspiracy theory is concerning the *purpose* of Microsoft's fairly large licensing agreement with them.
20:07:45 <ais523> pikhq: you aren't reading enough conspiracy theories, then
20:08:13 <pikhq> Insanely large payouts to SCO for no apparent reason are a matter of public record. ;)
20:08:31 <pikhq> (I mean, honestly: Microsoft buying SCOsource licenses? Why?!?)
20:08:36 <ais523> well, they found out what Microsoft had allegedly bought
20:09:15 <tusho> zoop
20:09:32 <tusho> i dislike Novell
20:09:40 <tusho> even if it was a sound contract
20:09:44 <tusho> they got bullied in to it
20:09:49 <tusho> and caved in as one of the largest commercial linux outfits
20:10:18 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
20:10:23 <tusho> AnMaster: what?
20:10:31 <AnMaster> tusho, what contract?
20:10:37 <ais523> the Novell-Microsoft contract
20:10:39 <tusho> read up dude...
20:10:43 <AnMaster> ah
20:10:43 <tusho> ^^^^ up that way
20:10:48 <ais523> where Novell and Microsoft agreed not to sue each other over patents
20:10:54 <AnMaster> ah
20:10:59 <ais523> Microsoft paid Novell a lot of money for it too
20:11:09 <ais523> and the result was bad press for Novell
20:12:05 <tusho> microsoft are probably on the death row
20:12:14 <tusho> recovering from vista will be nigh-on impossible
20:12:21 <tusho> it'll be a loooooooooooooong trawl though...
20:12:28 <ais523> they've already announced the vaporware for the next version
20:12:34 <ais523> in fact two next versions
20:12:39 <ais523> both Windows 7 and something they call Midori
20:12:50 <ais523> although loads of things are called Midori because it's a common Japanese word
20:12:55 <tusho> yes
20:13:01 <pikhq> Midori, in concept, seems very, *very* insecure.
20:13:08 <AnMaster> what does Midori mean?
20:13:14 <tusho> AnMaster: green as in ecological
20:13:16 <tusho> like trees and shit
20:13:17 <tusho> (I believe)
20:13:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a word for a colour, it has a similar meaning to "green"
20:13:23 <AnMaster> ah
20:13:32 <ais523> but the two aren't exactly the same
20:13:32 <AnMaster> "similar meaning"?
20:13:43 <tusho> midori kind of signals how out of touch microsoft are
20:13:44 <AnMaster> ais523, so what shade of green then?
20:13:45 <pikhq> Basically, their security model: if the kernel is secure, then the OS is secure. If the kernel is insecure, then welcome to DOS.
20:13:51 <tusho> they come up with a project which is like a bastardised TUNES
20:13:52 <ais523> I don't know, I'm not an expert on Japanese
20:13:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's just green.
20:13:57 <tusho> except, more crap
20:13:58 * pikhq knows Japanese.
20:14:21 <tusho> oh and
20:14:29 <tusho> WINDOZE "MO' HA VEY"
20:14:33 <pikhq> It does happen to also have the same 'ecological' connotations.
20:14:39 <AnMaster> tusho, windows what?
20:14:47 <tusho> [spoiler]WINDOZE MO HA VEY IS PEOPLE^W VISTA[/spoiler]
20:14:50 <tusho> AnMaster: Mojave.
20:14:55 <AnMaster> ah
20:14:58 <tusho> They showed Vista to some people who had never used it
20:15:01 <tusho> but had heard bad things about it
20:15:03 <tusho> and thus disliked it
20:15:12 <tusho> they all loved "Mojave" then they told them it was Vista.
20:15:22 <tusho> Of course, they've carefully selected whose responses they've shown, etc.
20:15:25 <ais523> tusho: I wonder which bit of it they showed them, though?
20:15:28 <pikhq> They showed a 10 minute demo.
20:15:34 <tusho> well, yes exactly
20:15:38 <ais523> ah, so they didn't interact with it themselves?
20:15:38 <tusho> pikhq: didn't they let them use it a bit?
20:15:42 <pikhq> It wasn't "here, use this for a few days."
20:15:42 <tusho> in a limited fashion
20:15:47 <tusho> their website seemed to suggest that
20:15:50 <pikhq> It was a scripted demo.
20:15:54 <tusho> like, a 30-hour tour of it that they could actually use
20:15:56 <tusho> oh, ok
20:15:57 <tusho> that's even worse
20:16:01 <ais523> no copies from network shares to USB sticks?
20:16:06 <pikhq> Nope.
20:16:22 <pikhq> Just "Oooh, look. It can run Windows Media Player!"
20:16:29 <tusho> Jeez.
20:16:31 <pikhq> "Oh, wow. you mean the computer can play vidoes now?"
20:16:40 <tusho> vidoes indeed
20:16:42 <ais523> but the last good version of Windows Media Player was the one that came with Windows 98
20:16:54 <tusho> ais523: it has a continuation in Media Player Classic
20:16:59 <tusho> which has the interface of WMP 7
20:17:00 <ais523> ah, that's good to know
20:17:03 <tusho> but modern codecs, etc
20:17:04 <tusho> (not official)
20:17:14 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Player_Classic
20:17:21 <tusho> ah, 6.4
20:17:21 <tusho> not 7
20:17:32 <AnMaster> I just use mplayer, with win32codecs
20:17:38 <tusho> AnMaster: this is for windows
20:17:48 <tusho> mplayer on windows, while technically possible, is a bit pointless
20:17:54 <AnMaster> tusho, well vlc got a windows version iirc
20:17:54 <ais523> well, normally I'm playing things on Linux so there isn't a problem
20:18:03 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I've got VLC on my USB stick
20:18:04 <tusho> vlc has some major shortcomings
20:18:11 <ais523> it's the usual way to play ogg on Windows, I think
20:19:25 <AnMaster> anyway I haven't used windows for years
20:19:44 <AnMaster> well yes, I have, helped parents with computer problems, but not as my own OS
20:28:51 <psygnisf_> you know
20:29:02 <psygnisf_> for once i'd like to see a scifi show where computer programs look like computer programs
20:29:23 <ais523> I've seen scifi shows where they're apparently written in COBOL
20:29:48 <pikhq> I'd like to see sci-fi shows written by good sci-fi authors.
20:29:52 <psygnisf_> well, i do know that some stargate has used some JS stuff for replicator code
20:29:55 <Deewiant> Neon Genesis Evangelion had a snapshot of HTML
20:30:11 <psygnisf_> but i'd like to see some real potential code
20:30:54 <psygnisf_> like.. some forth code that actually looks like it does what its supposed to do
20:31:12 <psygnisf_> (i say forth because the NASA types use forth a lot, i hear)
20:32:02 <tusho> Deewiant: lisp too
20:32:05 <tusho> (why do I know this?)
20:32:37 <Deewiant> oh, where was that
20:32:52 * tusho shrugs. I have never watched the series.
20:32:58 <tusho> I know so much trivia about things I know nothing about...
20:33:26 <Deewiant> hmm, I seem to recall that Serial Experiments Lain had something in Lisp
20:33:40 <Deewiant> but not NGE, though
20:35:19 <psygnisf_> i can imagine SEL having it, definitely
20:35:25 <psygnisf_> they were total nerds, the writers and animators
20:35:28 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
20:35:49 <tusho> hmm, i think this is another anime series I know nothing about sans some trivia - doesn't it reference the knights of the lambda calculus?
20:35:53 <tusho> or am I confusing it with something else
20:36:07 <psygnisfive> it could
20:36:09 <psygnisfive> its lain
20:36:10 <psygnisfive> who the fuck knows
20:36:18 <Deewiant> I think it did
20:36:31 <Deewiant> but I'd really like to know where you got the Lisp in NGE :-P
20:36:33 <tusho> In the anime series Serial Experiments Lain, there is a secret society called the Knights of the Eastern Calculus which is a reference to the Knights of the Lambda Calculus.[1]
20:37:05 <tusho> Deewiant: it might have been c
20:37:11 <tusho> i am not good at -accurate- trivia
20:37:23 <ais523> tusho: are you good at making up inaccurate trivia on the spot?
20:37:35 <tusho> ais523: no, but Alan Turing was
20:37:41 <psygnisfive> haha
20:37:42 <tusho> he won a competition for making up inaccurate trivia on the spot in 1931
20:37:43 <psygnisfive> turing
20:37:44 <psygnisfive> <3
20:37:49 <tusho> (a year before he was born)
20:37:57 <psygnisfive> tusho <3
20:37:59 <psygnisfive> :D
20:38:04 * ais523 laughs at that, too
20:38:27 <psygnisfive> i love making up trivia at random
20:38:48 <psygnisfive> someone comments that such and such doesnt seem very much like something some group of people would do
20:39:11 <Deewiant> tusho: alright, then I'd like to know where you got anything-besides-HTML in NGE »_«
20:39:12 <psygnisfive> ill turn around and make up a long and extensive account of the cultural/historical significance of doing exactly that
20:39:20 <tusho> Deewiant: no idea, sorry
20:39:33 <Deewiant> meh
20:39:53 <psygnisfive> we should totally start a contest like that dude omg
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21:47:02 <AnMaster> "MSGQ"
21:47:05 <AnMaster> now that seems cool
21:47:12 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
21:47:20 <AnMaster> but what the heck does it actually do?
21:47:41 <AnMaster> shouldn't it, like, have an introduction
21:47:52 <ais523> it seems to maintain a message queue, a bit like the one Windows uses for all its API communications between processes
21:47:59 <AnMaster> oh my
21:48:01 <ais523> although based on the errno values this seems to be a UNIXised version of that
21:48:03 <AnMaster> "REXP" 0x52455850
21:48:03 <AnMaster> C(0gnirts flags -- )Compile a regular expression
21:48:05 <AnMaster> wtf :P
21:48:09 <AnMaster> just wtf
21:48:14 <AnMaster> we are going to get lazy it seems
21:48:24 <ais523> AnMaster: that's an optimisation for speed, I thought you liked those?
21:48:30 <AnMaster> "SETS" I don't get at all
21:48:40 <ais523> it's a Pascal data type
21:48:41 <AnMaster> ais523, no I mean having a regular expression extension at all
21:48:53 <ais523> AnMaster: what's WTF about that, regexen are useful
21:48:59 <AnMaster> ais523, assume it was over 7 years since I last messed with pascal
21:49:19 <ais523> ok, basically a set is to an enum as checkboxes are to radio boxes
21:49:22 <AnMaster> ais523, tell of any other esolang with regex as a loadable extension
21:49:25 <ais523> an enum can have exactly one value from its set
21:49:30 <AnMaster> ah
21:49:33 <AnMaster> so a bitmask?
21:49:35 <ais523> whereas a set can have 0, 1, or more
21:49:37 <ais523> like a bitmask
21:49:57 <tusho> {ais523, tell of any other esolang with regex as a loadable extension}
21:50:01 <AnMaster> or struct { bool first:1; bool second:1; and so on
21:50:02 <tusho> tell me another esolang with loadable extensions.
21:50:05 <tusho> or TRDS.
21:50:08 <AnMaster> tusho, good point ;P
21:50:11 <tusho> or TOYS.
21:50:12 <AnMaster> well there is perl
21:50:12 <tusho> or anything, really.
21:50:17 <AnMaster> it got loadable extensions
21:50:17 <tusho> perl is not an esolang
21:50:18 <ais523> tusho: C-INTERCAL has compilable-in extensions
21:50:19 <AnMaster> it got regex
21:50:26 <AnMaster> tusho, see entry on esolang wiki :P
21:50:26 <tusho> as much as cheap jokes would like you to believe.
21:50:28 <ais523> but I haven't done a regex one yet
21:50:33 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah I know :P
21:50:41 <lament> loadable extensions are boring
21:50:47 <AnMaster> "SMEM"
21:50:47 <lament> we need an esolang with unloadable extensions
21:50:48 <AnMaster> lol
21:50:51 <AnMaster> "shared memory segment"
21:50:54 <AnMaster> wtf is this :!
21:50:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a communication primitive
21:51:05 <ais523> to communicate between threads and/or processes
21:51:12 <ais523> you have memory that more than one process can read/write
21:51:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I mean the whole fucking funge space is shared for gods sake!
21:51:15 <tusho> lament: a cannibalistic esolang
21:51:23 <tusho> it can end with removing the remove instruction itself
21:51:28 <lament> yep
21:51:32 <lament> BEGIN
21:51:35 <lament> REMOVE BEGIN
21:51:38 <lament> REMOVE END
21:51:40 <lament> REMOVE REMOVE
21:51:44 <AnMaster> ais523, semaphore tooo
21:51:57 <AnMaster> ais523, for gods sake, we got >< and p for a reason
21:51:58 <ais523> AnMaster: what if you're sharing memory with a non-Befunge program?
21:52:05 <AnMaster> ais523, is that what it does?
21:52:08 <AnMaster> it isn't clear at all then
21:52:09 <ais523> it looks like it can
21:52:21 <ais523> that's why it mentions all that POSIX stuff
21:52:31 <AnMaster> well shared memory is optional in POSIX iirc
21:52:55 <tusho> lament: don't see why you need begin/end
21:53:02 <tusho> anyway it's more mind-fucking if you can remove them using their own syntax
21:53:03 <tusho> like this:
21:53:04 <lament> so there's more stuff to remove
21:53:09 <tusho> !(!)
21:53:16 <lament> it's a language with unloadable extensions
21:53:16 <AnMaster> ais523, oh god a "STCK" too
21:53:18 <tusho> !(})
21:53:20 <ais523> I've written INTERCAL programs that end by ABSTAINING from all commands
21:53:21 <lament> so it needs some extensions to unload
21:53:28 <ais523> except GIVE UP
21:53:38 <AnMaster> "TRGR" 0x54524752
21:53:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't get that one at all
21:53:50 <AnMaster> it needs some introduction
21:54:04 <AnMaster> because no one will be able to understand what it does from the current docs
21:54:19 <ais523> ah, I think I get what it does
21:54:24 <AnMaster> oh?
21:54:24 <ais523> you have a set of subroutines
21:54:28 <ais523> which any thread can activate
21:54:34 <AnMaster> right
21:54:36 <ais523> and if you activate one it creates a new thread to run it
21:54:45 <ais523> so it's just shorthand for t followed by a jump
21:55:04 <AnMaster> ok... now I'm just waiting for PTHD (pthreads)
21:55:05 <AnMaster> ;P
21:55:10 <AnMaster> anyone want to define it?
21:55:12 <AnMaster> anyone?
21:55:21 <AnMaster> (no I won't implement it)
21:55:39 <AnMaster> "EMEM" 0x454d454d
21:55:39 <AnMaster> A(size -- hnd)Allocate memory
21:55:40 <AnMaster> oh god
21:55:47 <SimonRC> argh!"
21:55:55 <AnMaster> "This is essentially an interface into malloc."
21:55:56 <AnMaster> yep
21:56:00 <ais523> ok, I think e's just trying to port the whole of C's stdlib into Befunge
21:56:07 <AnMaster> ais523, :(
21:56:19 <AnMaster> ais523, he should have gone for a FFI simply
21:56:22 <ais523> I can see how a malloc-alike would be useful in Befunge, though
21:56:43 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
21:56:48 <ais523> because although Funge-without-fingerprints is fine for things like variable-length arrays
21:56:58 <ais523> it's no good for things like linked lists or n-ary trees
21:57:08 <AnMaster> ais523, this will mess up with stuff like garbage collector
21:57:08 <ais523> (it can do a binary tree with the heapsort storage trick, though)
21:57:13 <AnMaster> and non-C implementations
21:57:32 <SimonRC> AnMaster: not really
21:57:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I've implemented malloc in Perl before
21:57:50 <ais523> slowly
21:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it can do any of those things without fingerprints, it's Turing complete for gods sake
21:58:01 <ais523> but I rewrote the program in C for speed and just used built-in malloc
21:58:05 <SimonRC> e.g. for python just have a dictionary from int to list of bytes or whatever
21:58:17 <ais523> AnMaster: Turing completeness is not necessary good enough to do shared memory though
21:58:22 <AnMaster> ais523, agreed
21:58:26 <AnMaster> but why the heck do you want it
21:58:32 <SimonRC> (except python already has an interface to malloc)
21:58:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I never used shared memory in any program I ever wrote
21:59:01 <ais523> that doesn't mean it's useless
21:59:12 <AnMaster> indeed not
21:59:16 <AnMaster> but still
21:59:19 <ais523> I haven't used it either, but I haven't written the sort of program where it would be useful
21:59:27 <AnMaster> well what sort of program is that?
21:59:50 <ais523> one that needs high-speed communication with a known server
21:59:51 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway of those listed there I will most likely implement LONG when I have time
21:59:55 <AnMaster> not sure about the other ones
22:00:00 <AnMaster> probably one or two at most
22:00:03 <ais523> think clients for database programs communicating with a database daemon for instance
22:00:04 <AnMaster> and night
22:00:17 <AnMaster> ais523, mysql use sockets at least
22:00:28 <ais523> yes, it does, but shared memory could be faster for some things
22:00:35 <ais523> e.g. if you were storing bitmaps in the database
22:00:50 <ais523> and the database was stored in memory for some reason
22:00:54 <ais523>