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02:44:48 <dogface> Guys, you're my friends. Suppose I were to write a story.
02:46:09 <dogface> I'd have a character named Johann Algernon, and he'd be really smart, but he'd be bored most of the time. Then a girl named Grace would come into his life via deus ex machina and teach him how to be happy.
02:47:40 <dogface> And then they'd kidnap Wolfram Blitzen from Newshounds and... well, maybe not that.
02:48:48 <dogface> Well, *you're* not my friend. Just... gosh, where'd they go?
02:48:59 <optbot> GreaseMonkey: I need to write a BF interpreter in INTERCAL still.
02:51:21 <dogface> And in a completely unrelated manner, a funny group of characters would get together and accomplish something really cool.
02:51:43 <dogface> And it'd collapse in a comic manner so that I could continue writing.
02:52:20 <dogface> And these seemingly separate stories would be heavily allegorical, and scathing commentaries on each other. :-P
03:10:08 <dogface> And it's gotten to the point where I suddenly don't understand the comics I'm reading.
03:10:36 <dogface> So I'll stop putting "and" at the beginning of every sentence and go to bed instead.
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08:46:49 <funktio> Deewiant: on line 707, '""oof""' should be '""oof"'"
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12:41:21 <dogface> School starts in exactly 24 hours.
12:43:07 <dogface> Three trimesters later, and boom, you're a graduate.
12:43:14 <dogface> And by you, I mean me, of course.
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13:53:41 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6yuat/let_people_use_google_accounts_to_log_in_to_your/ 65 upvotes, 65 downvotes.
13:59:01 <dogface> See if you can win a prize for most controversial idea ever.
13:59:17 <tusho> dogface: Nah, there've been more controversial posts on reddit.
13:59:47 <tusho> dogface: http://www.reddit.com/controversial/?t=all
13:59:59 <tusho> The most controversial reddit posts of all time.
14:00:12 <oklofok> dogface: you're a graduate in a year?
14:01:20 <Deewiant> tusho: where do you see number of up/downvotes
14:01:30 <tusho> on the comments page
14:01:41 <tusho> #1 has 561 up vs 562 down
14:01:54 <Deewiant> there used to be a little "status" link or something on the comments page which showed it
14:02:08 <Deewiant> now that it's always visible I couldn't find it anymore ;-)
14:02:16 <tusho> Deewiant: yeah reddit fucked with the design a while ago
14:02:25 <tusho> it looks kind of shit now unless you turn on compact mode in prefs
14:02:34 <Deewiant> and of course I immediately did
14:02:53 <Deewiant> hmm, I've voted up 4 posts in the top 31 controversial
14:03:10 <tusho> i rarely ever upvote things
14:03:25 <Deewiant> I either upvote or don't, in general
14:03:53 <oklofok> you're a bunch of anarchists
14:04:02 <tusho> (( (int (*)(int))(*foo)(int) = { int n |
14:04:02 <tusho> { int i | return n += i; } }; ))
14:04:11 <tusho> methinks the syntax could use some whipping.
14:04:36 <tusho> Deewiant: i am playing around with a little syntax to give C functional programming shizz
14:04:39 <tusho> closures is part of that
14:04:45 <tusho> closures + anonymous functions
14:04:47 <Deewiant> so it's just something private of yours
14:04:54 <tusho> but yeah, that type is gnarly.
14:05:03 <tusho> (int (*)(int)) (*foo)(int)
14:05:03 <Deewiant> how about "int n, int i |" for starters
14:05:13 <tusho> Deewiant: how about no, see http://www.paulgraham.com/accgen.html
14:05:16 <tusho> The problem: Write a function foo that takes a number n and returns a function that takes a number i, and returns n incremented by i.
14:05:34 <tusho> mine does everything except his (a) requirement which is basically designed to get rid of any non-dynamically-typed langs
14:05:35 <Deewiant> tusho: it would mean the same thing, of course
14:05:44 <tusho> Deewiant: ah. i am not making c a curried language :D
14:05:59 <tusho> that would break variadics, noadics, and most pieces of c code ever
14:06:12 <tusho> also if you do func(notenoughargs); as a statement it'd suck to get it accepted
14:06:17 <tusho> because that'd return a function
14:06:23 <tusho> instead of erroring out because you didn't specify enough args
14:06:42 <tusho> anyway, the actual function body is fine I think, it's just the type that is hideous
14:06:53 <tusho> I could add an 'auto' for type inferrence ofc
14:07:05 <tusho> auto foo = { int n | { int i | return n += i } };
14:07:31 <Deewiant> well, the thing is that C's function/function pointer syntax /is/ gnarly
14:08:12 <Deewiant> adding even just a keyword "function" or whatever would work but would break compatibility with C, of course
14:08:24 <tusho> i don't mind breaking compatibility a little
14:08:30 <tusho> but i wouldn't completely rewrite it e.g. by currying
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14:13:27 <Deewiant> in D that'd be "int delegate(int) delegate(int) foo = (int n) { return (int i) { return n += i; } };"
14:13:37 <Deewiant> plus a semiclon after the next-to-last }
14:13:48 <oklofok> for a second there i thought "in D" was some elaborate smiley
14:14:28 <Deewiant> and with auto, "auto foo = (int n) { return (int i) { return n += i; }; };"
14:15:14 <tusho> Deewiant: yeah, I prefer the smalltalky {x | y} though
14:15:23 <tusho> also the delegate syntax has always confused me
14:15:39 <Deewiant> it's just <return type> delegate <parameters> :-P
14:16:02 <Deewiant> you could of course use "function" instead if you prefer that to the odd term "delegate"
14:16:08 <tusho> ah, how about (params)^(return)
14:16:33 <tusho> i mean, the type of the function is difficult to comprehend anyway, so it'll never be perfect
14:16:42 <tusho> i think that's pretty decent
14:17:25 <Deewiant> are the lexical and parsing phases separate in C compilation, like they are not in C++?
14:17:35 <Deewiant> I forget the short term to describe this kind of grammar
14:18:47 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
14:19:27 <psygnisfive> separating lexical recognition from non-lexical stuff is just a different way of parsing, it has nothing to do with the language
14:19:30 <tusho> Deewiant: yea, they are
14:19:35 <tusho> psygnisfive: no, the c standard specifies it
14:19:43 <Deewiant> like, in that case you can't always parse "X ^ Y" to "xor X Y", it's "if X is a type then function pointer... else xor X Y"
14:19:48 <psygnisfive> but it has nothing to do with the grammar or the language
14:20:06 <tusho> psygnisfive: the c standard defines the language c. the c standard specifies that they must be seperate.
14:20:07 <Deewiant> well basically of course you can implement it all in one clump if you want to :-P
14:20:10 <tusho> therefore it has something to do with the language.
14:20:19 <Deewiant> but it /is/ a property of the grammar
14:20:21 <tusho> Deewiant: ah, that's true .... wait, couldn't I just use ->?
14:20:25 <psygnisfive> tusho: i understand that the standard specifies this but theres no essential difference
14:20:29 <tusho> (int) -> ((int) -> int)
14:20:33 <tusho> psygnisfive: ok ,yes, you can implement it either way
14:20:38 <tusho> but you have to act as if you used two steps
14:20:39 <psygnisfive> deewiant: its not a property of the grammar
14:20:47 <Deewiant> tusho: no, I don't think so, since "(x) -> (y)" is valid, no?
14:20:57 <tusho> Deewiant: how is that valid in c
14:21:03 <tusho> minus greater than?
14:21:05 <Deewiant> tusho: x is a pointer to a struct
14:21:11 <psygnisfive> the lexing stage is the collection of terminal symbols, potentially infinite in size, into labels
14:21:14 <tusho> the spaces threw me off
14:21:18 <tusho> Deewiant: but this is a type
14:21:21 <tusho> you can't do foo->bar in a type
14:21:28 <Deewiant> tusho: I'm not sure if ->(y) is valid though, it might have to be ->y (no brackets)
14:21:36 <psygnisfive> e.g. strings like "blarg" become 'terminals' of type <string> or whatever you want to call it
14:22:04 <psygnisfive> by using some regular expression to recognize the string.
14:22:11 <Deewiant> tusho: no, but it's still context sensitive because you can't just see "identifier -> identifier" and decide what it is
14:22:23 <psygnisfive> this basically is a rule <string> ::= /.../
14:22:34 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar
14:22:45 <tusho> Deewiant: well duh, c has tons of ambiguities like that :D
14:22:48 <psygnisfive> now whether or not all those rules are applied beforehand or not is irrelevant to the grammar/language
14:23:26 <psygnisfive> deewiant how is C's grammar context sensitive?
14:23:29 <Deewiant> tusho: I'm not sure if this is what I want to be talking about, but it's a property the grammar of D has and that of C++ doesn't :-P
14:23:41 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: I didn't say it was
14:24:07 <tusho> C++ is not context free
14:24:18 <tusho> C++ is turing complete to parse
14:24:20 <Deewiant> that's one big criticism of it
14:24:24 <tusho> look it up, bitchez
14:24:38 <psygnisfive> i seriously doubt that C++ is unrestricted
14:25:01 <psygnisfive> i have to go. ill ask you about this later. see ya.
14:25:32 <oklofok> well the type system is tc, so most likely you can do something impossible to parse with the thingie<thingie vs. template<...> ambiguity
14:25:41 <Deewiant> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/browse_thread/thread/93b9995c660a443b/7aa3c7a30ec301d4
14:27:05 <Deewiant> could be a number of things in C++, from a function declaration to initializing a class instance
14:29:14 <Deewiant> the idea of context-freeness is that a given piece of code, say "identifier -> identifier", can parse to only one thing
14:30:08 <Deewiant> in this case, something like "expression -> struct-member-dereference -> (identifier, identifier)" I guess
14:30:33 <tusho> Deewiant: but, in this case
14:30:35 <tusho> it's not ambiguous
14:30:40 <tusho> as the type doesn't clash with the expr
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14:32:25 <Deewiant> given "x -> y", x and/or y might be typedefs so you can't know whether that's a function literal in your syntax or (*x).y
14:37:00 <dogface> tusho, I think yours is the most controversial thing that's actually an idea.
14:37:38 <tusho> give me an ambiguous expression
14:37:49 <tusho> Deewiant: yes, that's an expression
14:38:08 <dogface> The heads of all pages that are in the imperative: 1. vote 2. vote 4. vote 7. vote 14. let
14:38:10 <tusho> totally different contexts, you can just have a seperate rule for type with that in
14:38:18 <Deewiant> you may be right, let me think
14:38:21 <tusho> and let that only appear in the expression thing
14:38:41 <Deewiant> of course this isn't actually a problem anyway
14:38:52 <tusho> i like to hear that
14:39:03 <Deewiant> since you can just parse it as struct-member-deference-expression, since it has the same exact syntax
14:39:09 <Deewiant> and worry about it in the semantics phase
14:39:25 <tusho> Deewiant: even then you can still handle it fine
14:39:30 <tusho> beacues x->y is always a struct thing in an expr
14:39:33 <tusho> and always a function in a type
14:39:42 <Deewiant> yeah, I didn't mean "worry" as in "it's a problem" :-)
14:39:57 <tusho> ok, so, glad we've got that sorted out
14:40:01 <Deewiant> there's still an addition to the grammar somewhere
14:40:14 <tusho> now i'd like a nice syntax for higher-order stuffs
14:40:14 <Deewiant> but it shouldn't cause any additional ambiguities
14:40:23 <tusho> is not very pretty
14:40:26 <tusho> foo (bar) { ... } would be nicer
14:40:30 <tusho> I guess I can just specialcase it
14:40:38 <tusho> foo (x; y; z) { quux }
14:40:48 <tusho> where foo is a function taking a block as all its args
14:40:54 <tusho> is foo({x},{y},{z},{quux})
14:41:00 <tusho> then you could implement for
14:41:42 <tusho> Deewiant: any suggestions for a nicer way to do that?
14:41:44 <tusho> seems a bit special casey
14:42:04 <tusho> you can't implement for with that
14:42:09 <tusho> {int i=0;}, {i = 5}
14:42:11 <tusho> doesn't make sense
14:43:15 <Deewiant> hmm, so what exactly do you want
14:43:26 <Deewiant> a syntax for calling a function with a function literal as a parameter/
14:44:38 <tusho> Deewiant: i just want something that lets me define control structures and such and then use them with a natural-looking syntax
14:45:19 <Deewiant> and you could implement for with it
14:45:38 <Deewiant> just specify that bar is passed as a reference into {}
14:45:53 <tusho> Deewiant: show me how to implement for
14:46:00 <tusho> i don't think you can do it
14:46:08 <tusho> for (int i = 0; i < 5; i++) { printf("%i\n", i); }
14:46:11 <tusho> that is what it must run
14:46:47 <Deewiant> well, the trickier thing is that in this case it must take a variable definition as a function parameter
14:47:11 <Deewiant> so I guess the closest you can get is
14:47:26 <Deewiant> int i = 0; for (i; i < 5; i++) { ... }
14:47:52 <Deewiant> possibly with *i < 5 and (*i)++ instead
14:47:58 <tusho> that is the problem I want to solve
14:48:31 <tusho> Deewiant: not with just that <- i'm figuring out what to replace that with
14:48:33 <Deewiant> you need some kind of macro/template system or something
14:48:42 <tusho> i think i could possibly get away with less
14:48:45 <Deewiant> or if you want to be less general, something less general
14:55:01 <tusho> I had the code to MSPaint for some early version of win2k a while back.
14:55:40 <tusho> A friend had it and gave it to me. :P
14:55:47 <tusho> I don't know how they got it.
14:56:01 <tusho> Unfortunately, it required a makefile from a few directories up to build, so I couldn't. (Didn't wanna fuck with compiler settings until it worked.)
14:56:05 <tusho> I don't think I have it any more.
14:57:44 <Deewiant> there was that Win2000 source code leak
14:57:47 <Deewiant> which is probably where it's from
14:58:00 <tusho> i've read articles about it, i don't think there were many apps in it
14:58:05 <tusho> mostly socket code and some shell stuff and crap
14:58:15 <tusho> more plausable is from the nt4 leak
14:58:18 <tusho> but i'm not certain
14:58:21 <Deewiant> I think it did have some apps, such as paint and minesweeper or some such
14:58:29 <tusho> Deewiant: can it still be obtained?
14:58:34 <tusho> or has it been cracked down on
14:58:41 <tusho> yea, but I mean ... not gnutella
14:58:43 <Deewiant> you can't remove something from the internet
14:58:53 <tusho> but you can remove it from decent places
15:26:12 <tusho> http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev/browse_thread/thread/8411d58c4d66b934
15:28:16 <dogface> The problem with voting comments up and down is that it kind of assumes everyone likes the same thing.
15:28:37 <tusho> dogface: The point of up/downvoting comments on reddit is meant to be: downvote disruptive, useless etc
15:28:40 <tusho> but upvote worthful comments
15:28:42 <tusho> even if you disagree
15:28:53 <tusho> you're meant to upvote what you like, downvote what you don't
15:28:58 <tusho> so they use the exact same UI for very different things
15:29:09 <tusho> so it ends up that the up/down arrows on comments are misused.
15:31:17 <tusho> http://www.courageunfettered.com/stuf/mozillapics/ o_x
15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Like Perl ;).
16:05:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Let's try that again.
16:05:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my sentence was a bit obscure, gotta admit..
16:09:24 <fizzie> optbot: What, now you're speaking with topic changes?
16:09:24 <optbot> fizzie: I'll just put the tape display on.
16:09:34 <fizzie> optbot: Uh... what will that do?
16:09:35 <optbot> fizzie: your girlfriend likes my voice :(
16:10:05 <fizzie> optbot: Really? She never said anything about that to me...
16:10:05 <optbot> fizzie: ~exec sys.stdout("I AM NOT bsmnt_bot")
16:10:25 <fizzie> optbot: I know you're not bsmnt_bot; you two don't even look that much alike.
16:10:26 <optbot> fizzie: replace if_zero with its brainfuck equivalent...
16:18:10 <tusho> fizzie: you like these bots, don't you
16:19:03 <optbot> Deewiant: and what n-nary
16:19:04 <fizzie> Well, yes. Sure. They're so friendly.
16:19:14 <optbot> Deewiant: my io will have a sugar on top of it
16:19:23 <optbot> Deewiant: if yes a sec
16:19:37 <tusho> fizzie: it's funny, I never thought something could make optbot look sane
16:19:38 <optbot> tusho: [pigs.canFly].whileTrue["hello world".print!]
16:19:40 <tusho> then I heard fungot
16:19:42 <fungot> tusho: ctcp is such a metaclass as a class entirely in l no use of recursion on the java fnord faces when you say " structurally equal", and i'm pretty sure she heard it mentioned on the site it does...
16:20:40 <optbot> fungot: so ignoring that tusho sounds like hes on helium
16:20:42 <optbot> fungot: other way around
16:20:43 <fungot> optbot: sounds like a book and start writing the first 1l quine? :p. ugh i need to push fnord
16:20:43 <optbot> fungot: šÌ›ÌœÌÌžÌŸÌ Ì¡Ì¢Ì£Ì¤Ì¥Ì¦Ì§Ì¨Ì©ÌªÌ«Ì¬Ì̴̵̶̷̸̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼̽̾̿̀Í͂̓̈́ͅÍ
16:20:45 <fungot> optbot: mikä on approaching ja mikä on peculiar. anteeks että olen tyhmä. tai no fnord minä. c++ is plain bad. thanks. :) but... it's x-treme!
16:20:46 <optbot> fungot: the id list will work the same here
16:20:47 <fungot> optbot: ( i could only find one book on general c, and wrapping is not so much
16:20:47 <optbot> fungot: Some people associate colors with letters, or tastes with sounds, or moods with textures, or some such.
16:21:03 <tusho> Deewiant: what was what
16:21:12 <tusho> you made optbot and fungot have a conversation
16:21:13 <fungot> tusho: agreed. originally, this wiki was to be expected. zaphod is lacking a head. some unfamiliar ( or simply unrecognizable) things in a interpreter for an arbitrary bf program? :) htmlprag?' questions.
16:21:15 <Deewiant> tusho: optbot's binary-looking scrawl
16:21:23 <tusho> Deewiant: japanese or something
16:21:28 <tusho> in the wrong encoding
16:21:31 <Deewiant> optbot: please, UTF-8 only here
16:21:31 <optbot> Deewiant: there's a perfectly good mailing list to which a bunch of people are already subscribed... :)
16:21:44 <Deewiant> tusho: where did it get it from
16:21:52 <tusho> Deewiant: a log somewhere.
16:22:03 <Deewiant> where does it get its data from in general
16:22:19 <tusho> every #esoteric log from the tunes.org sources, and fizzie's old personal logs
16:22:24 <tusho> which span from sometime in 2002 to when the tunes.org ones start
16:24:22 <Deewiant> anybody feel like grepping for that misencoded snippet? ;-)
16:24:38 <tusho> Deewiant: sure, sec
16:25:28 <tusho> It doesn't seem to enter properly, obviously.
16:25:50 <tusho> put a file containing that quote in a pastebin
16:25:54 <tusho> and i'll wget it from rutian
16:26:13 <tusho> just do what i said :P
16:26:41 <Deewiant> it'd be easier for you to just hex-edit a file :-P
16:26:55 <tusho> Rutian is sparse on tools.
16:29:40 <tusho> the server of eso-std.org, optbot, etc
16:29:58 <dogface> optbot is a despicable liar.
16:29:59 <optbot> dogface: see http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/Database_download for info about backups (it'd be about as complicated as wget and a cron job)
16:30:32 <tusho> $ grep "`cat asdf.txt`" *
16:30:32 <tusho> asdf.txt:šÌ›ÌœÌ]]ÌžÌŸÌ Ì¡Ì¢Ì£Ì¤Ì¥Ì¦Ì§Ì¨Ì©ÌªÌ«Ì¬Ì̴̵̶̷̸̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼̽̾̿̀ÍAA͂̓̈́ͅÍ
16:32:37 <Deewiant> tusho: perl -lne 'BEGIN{$/=\1024} print "hit byte ", ($.-1) * 1024 + $-[0] if /\xc5\xa1/'
16:32:43 <tusho> Deewiant: if i gave you a rutian account would you figure it out ;)
16:32:45 <tusho> oh, that coul dwork.
16:33:15 <tusho> okay, it hits a lot of bytes but that's about it :D
16:33:41 <tusho> i just did perl -lne 'BEGIN{$/=\1024} print "hit byte ", ($.-1) * 1024 + $-[0] if /\xc5\xa1/' *
16:34:35 <tusho> hooray, almost searched
16:40:42 <tusho> 09:38:59 <ais523> ·?~@?~A?~B?~C?~D?~E?~F?~G?~H?~I?~J?~K?~L?~M?~N?~O?~P?~Q?~R??~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~[?~\?~]?~^?~_?| ̴̡̢̧̨̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳??
16:40:42 <tusho> ?̶̷̸̹̺̻̼̽̾̿?~@?~A?~B?~C?~D?~E?| ͡.·?~@?~A?~B?~C?~D?~E?~F?~G?~H?~I?~JJ
16:40:43 <tusho> ?~K?~L?~M?~N?~O?~P?~Q?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~[?~\?~]?~^?~_?| ̡̢̧̣̤̥̦?
16:40:43 <tusho> 09:39:10 <ehird> ?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z ?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R??~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?~Y?~Z?~R?~S?~T?~U?~V?~W?~X?
16:40:49 <tusho> Tons of jewnicode bombs.
16:41:39 <tusho> Hey, ais did it first!
16:41:43 <tusho> Then I played with it.
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16:49:14 <tusho> 14:09:54 --- nick: ehird -> ehirdclone
16:49:14 <tusho> 14:10:03 --- nick: ehirdclone -> ehirdc
16:49:15 <tusho> 14:10:31 --- nick: ais523 -> ehird
16:49:15 <tusho> 14:10:40 --- nick: ehird -> ais523
16:49:15 <tusho> 14:10:58 --- nick: ehirdc -> ehird
16:49:15 <tusho> 14:12:02 --- nick: ais523 -> ehirdc
16:49:17 <tusho> 14:12:07 --- nick: ehird -> AnMasterr
16:49:19 <tusho> 14:12:07 --- nick: ehirdc -> ehirdclone
16:49:21 <tusho> 14:12:13 --- nick: AnMasterr -> ehirdc
16:49:23 <tusho> 14:12:29 --- nick: ehirdclone -> ais523
16:49:25 <tusho> 14:12:34 --- nick: ehirdc -> ehirdclone
16:49:27 <tusho> 14:12:39 --- nick: ehirdclone -> ehird
16:49:29 <tusho> 14:12:49 --- nick: Sgeo -> Sgea
16:49:31 <tusho> 14:13:00 --- nick: Sgea -> Sgee
16:49:33 <tusho> 14:13:11 --- nick: ehird -> Sgeeee
16:49:35 <tusho> 14:13:14 --- nick: Sgeeee -> ehirdc
16:49:37 <tusho> 14:13:24 --- nick: Sgee -> Sgei
16:49:39 <tusho> 14:13:38 --- nick: Sgei -> Sgeu
16:49:41 <tusho> 14:14:01 --- nick: Sgeu -> Sgeo
16:50:00 <tusho> Judofyr: that's from the logs
17:05:18 <dogface> Good nick nobody did a /nick ihope.
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17:46:13 <fungot> ais523: hm. no comments on " fnord". right. i'm not doing anything to decrease the number of variables
17:47:03 <fizzie> Neh, optbot makes my poor fungot look all deranged-like.
17:47:04 <fungot> fizzie: i had my computer manufacturer replace my hard drive blew up, and an auxiliary function
17:47:29 <ais523> I feel really foolish, anyway
17:47:44 <ais523> I'm on Windows at the moment because I remembered to bring my laptop here but forgot to bring its power supply
17:47:48 <pikhq> I freaking love ignore.
17:48:20 <ais523> pikhq: yes, it lets everyone see just the bits of the channel they like, so it helps everyone as long as they're not offended by being ignored
17:48:42 <fizzie> It would be pretty hard to offend the bots, I think.
17:48:45 <pikhq> Hell of a lot better than saying "Shut the fuck up, fungot!"
17:48:46 <fungot> pikhq: ( that kela can't complain about pay... i write programs for a new language, i would
17:49:31 <AnMaster> ais523, no need for TCP/IP support directly in intercal since cfunge have SOCK since about a week
17:50:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is a bug in fungot I think
17:50:53 <fungot> AnMaster: hmmmmm... thats not going to refer me to a mistake. i still haven't gotten all that excited by emacs, but cmuscheme.el works well enough to need a new toplevel with threads already loaded? ie, you can
17:51:03 <AnMaster> it didn't detect it lost connection
17:51:20 <AnMaster> RAW >>> PING :orwell.freenode.net <<< *long ago* was last line
17:51:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I'll probably add it anyway for CLC-INTERCAL compatibility, as an expansion library
17:52:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, could be a cfunge bug of course, but I think I reflect if anything returns an error
17:52:48 <AnMaster> ais523, good news btw: cfunge compiles under ICC
17:53:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I've had an idea
17:53:31 <ais523> how easy would it be to compile cfunge under a non-POSIX C99 implementation?
17:53:43 <ais523> or one which, in fact, had basically no standard library
17:53:57 <AnMaster> ais523, hm well you need to mess up loading code since I use mmap() to make parsing code simpler
17:54:18 <AnMaster> oh and you have to drop SOCK, SCKE, PERL and a few other such fingerprints
17:54:28 <ais523> also mmap wouldn't be a problem
17:54:29 <AnMaster> mess with y command to push environment in some other way
17:54:36 <ais523> because I'm planning to implement I/O with a reverse mmap, so to speak
17:54:48 <ais523> files are kept in memory because there's nowhere else to keep them
17:54:54 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway FILE uses streams
17:55:06 <AnMaster> ais523, apart from that, there may be more
17:55:11 <ais523> so streams are harder than mmap, but still possible and in fact quite easy
17:55:19 <ais523> (you just need a couple of pointers inside the FILE structure)
17:55:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: I should be catching most places that reflect, but not all.
17:55:23 <AnMaster> I haven't really studied free-standing ones
17:55:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it uses streams for o too
17:55:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, well no idea where it locked up, didn't run it under a debugger
17:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: you get no standard functions at all, and only the header files which are nothing but macros
17:56:11 <AnMaster> ais523, you would need to provide malloc/calloc/free/strdup and co.
17:56:12 <ais523> so that's limits.h, iso646.h, float.h, and one other which I can't remember right now
17:56:24 <ais523> AnMaster: that shouldn't be too hard, everyone uses malloc
17:56:32 <ais523> and strdup is trivial to write once you've got malloc
17:56:43 <AnMaster> ais523, and there are probably a lot more, for example math.h stuff
17:56:44 <ais523> so I'm going to have to implement malloc somehow
17:57:02 <ais523> AnMaster: ugh, looks like I'm going to have to get a math library from somewhere then
17:57:07 <ais523> I'm using floating point emulation as-is
17:57:18 <ais523> which is a pain because of all the bitwise operations
17:57:38 <AnMaster> ais523, well I use sinf() and sinl() they are C99, but if you don't mind always using double you could just replace the f/l versions with the plain ones
17:57:52 <AnMaster> ais523, think of fingerprints like FPDP FPSP
17:57:59 <AnMaster> oh they assume float is 32-bit and double 64-bit
17:58:03 <ais523> AnMaster: float is easier than double, or at least faster
17:58:07 <AnMaster> I think they will crap out *badly* if that isn't true
17:58:10 <ais523> and I went and stuck with usual 32-bit assumptions for the compiler
17:58:28 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what else, I use an xml writing library, but it is included in lib, there are a few more things in lib
17:58:33 <ais523> char=8, short=16, int=32, long=32, long long=64, float=32, double=64
17:58:34 <tusho> ais523: the bf compiler?
17:58:40 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I use a lot more standard routines
17:58:48 <ais523> AnMaster: not very easy then
17:58:49 <tusho> ais523: get newlib working on it
17:58:57 <ais523> however it would probably be easiest to use something like newlib
17:58:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't really looked
17:58:59 <tusho> just have to port the asm bits and such
17:59:18 <tusho> ais523: i has idea
17:59:28 <tusho> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdclib try this perhaps
17:59:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I have assumed POSIX-2001 and C99 when I coded
17:59:33 <tusho> when i did os dev that seemed the best choice
17:59:33 <ais523> anyway, I use the nonstandard long double = 64 (and thus a synonym for double) because the C standard says I'm allowed to
17:59:41 <tusho> and very easy to modify to get working on your stuff
17:59:52 <tusho> i.e. it's designed that you can configure it and perhaps change a few bits and it'll work
18:00:03 <AnMaster> ais523, well that works ok, I only use long double in a few cases but non where size matters
18:00:07 <ais523> ah, public domain will be useful as this project is such a mess of licences at the moment
18:00:10 <AnMaster> it would be 80 bits on x86 anyway
18:00:21 <tusho> ais523: hasn't had a release since 2006 i think maybe there have been checkins since then though
18:00:27 <tusho> still, it's a good basis if nothing else
18:00:28 <AnMaster> # warning "cfunge requires the floating point support to conform to the IEC 60559 floating-point standard in order to work. Hoping this will work anyway...";
18:00:31 <tusho> the code is very clear and clean
18:00:39 <ais523> I might just make the whole thing GPL3+ though, that would be legal and simplify matters
18:00:40 <AnMaster> I assume your stuff with spew warnings
18:00:56 <ais523> tusho: the version of gcc it's based on is GPL3+
18:01:06 <ais523> and you seriously don't want me to rewrite gcc...
18:01:07 <tusho> does that mean you can't make it gpl2
18:01:19 * tusho stabs richard stallman
18:01:40 <tusho> Deewiant: totally.
18:01:45 <tusho> i don't mind gpl2, really
18:01:47 <ais523> tusho: why are you so upset with gpl3?
18:01:58 <tusho> ais523: it makes the gpl more gply :)
18:02:01 <AnMaster> BSD means companies can reuse code without giving anything back
18:02:05 <tusho> gpl2 has a barely-acceptable level of gpl
18:02:09 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, and?
18:02:23 <tusho> if they add an awesome modification and it makes them rich and famous and they use it
18:02:24 <AnMaster> tusho, well that is what BSD doesn't suite me
18:02:36 <tusho> AnMaster: A license is not the correct place to argue against capitalism.
18:02:42 <AnMaster> since I consider that everyone should share back
18:02:51 <tusho> the gpl is just propaganda that polyglots as a license.
18:03:04 <tusho> AnMaster: That still denies commercial use.
18:03:16 <tusho> A license is not the correct place to argue against capitalism. there are perfectly good outlets for that
18:03:16 <AnMaster> tusho, which is what I want, unless they give back
18:03:19 <tusho> but the gpl is just unproductive.
18:03:31 <tusho> AnMaster: but not commercial use with modification without giving back
18:03:36 <ais523> tusho: GPL3 is more forgiving than GPL2 on people who mess up
18:03:48 <AnMaster> tusho, well you can still sell a linux distro containing GPL software
18:03:49 <tusho> AnMaster. say google use your crappy search library but add tons of amazing things and it makes them the best search engine ever
18:03:57 <ais523> tusho: it allows commercial use with modification without giving back as long as they don't redistribute the result
18:03:58 <tusho> their business would be OVER if they had to release those changes
18:04:04 <tusho> it's just unproductive
18:04:10 <ais523> inhouse use of modified GPL2/GPL3 is fine even without backcontributing
18:04:12 <tusho> and if you'd prefer everyone just shared and be happy, well, that's a political position
18:04:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hence, you kill google! Stop!
18:04:16 <tusho> == not the place for a license.
18:04:23 <Deewiant> Google is dying because of YOU!
18:04:31 <tusho> Deewiant: ok, stop exaggerating
18:04:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant and tusho: stop trolling
18:04:40 <tusho> i was not trolling, AnMaster
18:04:47 <tusho> i was trying to have an argument
18:04:56 <tusho> but, of course, i'm telling you that you're wrong
18:04:59 <tusho> = obviously trolling, right?
18:04:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> inhouse use of modified GPL2/GPL3 is fine even without backcontributing
18:05:18 <tusho> ais523: yes, but what if google use it in a desktop product
18:05:20 <ais523> <tusho> AnMaster. say google use your crappy search library but add tons of amazing things at it makes them the best search engine ever <-- actually they could do that even under GPL3 without backcontributing unless they sold or gave the code to someone else
18:05:22 <tusho> desktop search or whatever
18:05:23 <AnMaster> however making money from someone else's work without giving anything back...
18:05:31 <tusho> ais523: see, it's silly
18:05:38 <tusho> a website is not different from a dekstop app, fundamentally
18:05:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well I would use AGPL for web apps anyway
18:06:05 <AnMaster> so of course you are a capitalist
18:06:06 <ais523> tusho: well suppose the desktop search which incorporates your code is buggy
18:06:08 <tusho> oh look, more AnMaster trolling
18:06:12 <tusho> 'hahaha you use apple products'
18:06:31 <AnMaster> tusho, I just do the same as you :P
18:06:40 <tusho> yea, i was trying to have a reasoned argument
18:06:48 <tusho> but fuck that, it's impossible to disagree with you without being called a troll
18:06:51 <tusho> you are on ignore.
18:07:13 <Judofyr> echo "AnMaster" >> .gitignore
18:07:20 <tusho> Judofyr: /ignore AnMaster
18:07:24 <tusho> beaten by mere characters!
18:07:34 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway back to the topic... you will need to drop some fingerprints, all floating point are in various fingerprints btw
18:07:37 <fizzie> That's a curious definition of "beaten" there.
18:08:01 <AnMaster> ais523, further, file IO will need to be changed
18:08:07 <AnMaster> loading can be done from a string
18:08:07 <Judofyr> tusho: now that's what I call an idea!
18:08:13 <AnMaster> ais523, while writing use streams
18:08:17 * tusho kills Judofyr before he implements
18:08:31 <ais523> Judofyr: wouldn't that command mean that files called AnMaster wouldn't be stored in your git repository?
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18:08:49 <ais523> AnMaster: don't worry, streams are not a hard part of the C library to implement when all your files are stored in memory
18:09:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and well I use extern char **environ; need to handle that in some way
18:09:16 <Judofyr> ais523: file is kinda like a person, and repository is kinda like a channel....
18:09:28 <AnMaster> ais523, not sure what else there is...
18:09:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well STDIO for terminal, but that should be easy
18:10:01 <ais523> AnMaster: harder than streams actually, it needs to be special-cased
18:10:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I use getline to read a line at once, then use my own internal buffer
18:10:19 <ais523> AnMaster: there is no other sort in brainfuck
18:10:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so fflush() and such are called
18:10:21 <oklopol> Judofyr: i'd never have guessed that
18:10:34 <tusho> ais523: stop talking to AnMaster, it's confusing without his context.
18:11:00 <ais523> tusho: why not, I'm fine with people ignoring each other but they should learn to live with half-conversations
18:11:07 <tusho> ais523: it was a joke
18:11:13 <tusho> ais523: has AnMaster commented on my ignoring of him yet
18:11:24 <ais523> tusho: no, we changed the subject
18:11:40 <ais523> tusho: for all I know e's ignoring you too
18:11:48 <tusho> oh, that'd be nice
18:11:50 <tusho> can you ask him if he is?
18:11:55 <oklopol> everyone stop talking, i've ignored everyone, and i don't like missing anything
18:12:31 <oklopol> i hate it when people make a big deal out of ignoring others
18:12:42 <oklopol> i personally don't give a shit if i'm being ignored
18:12:54 <AnMaster> ais523, memcpy(), strcpy, various other stuff from string.h
18:12:56 <tusho> oklopol: you said everyone should stop talking
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18:13:14 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc needs the mem* functions in the standard library to work
18:13:17 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:13:23 <fizzie> If you _really_ want to have conversations-via-an-intermediary, you can always use fungot's ^echo if you don't mind the duplicationary. (But don't do that.)
18:13:24 <fungot> fizzie: seems to me to do that in the " better" language.
18:13:24 <oklopol> really i guess it's just making the statement people find me useless or annoying, but if they're ignoring me, what do i care what they think
18:13:37 <AnMaster> ais523, hm apart from that... fprintf() snprintf() iirc
18:14:02 <tusho> ^echo yo hi AnMaster
18:14:02 <fungot> yo hi AnMaster yo hi AnMaster
18:14:04 <AnMaster> atof() iirc in the floating point fingerprints
18:14:08 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm definitely going to try to find someone else's implementation of vsprintf, once you have that you can get all the others
18:14:13 <ais523> well, vsprintf and vsscanf
18:14:17 <AnMaster> well I'm not ignoring tusho, nor do I think he is ignoring me
18:14:37 <ais523> luckily it's easy to find an infinitely long string buffer in a brainfuck program
18:15:00 <AnMaster> ais523, since I need to "stop one digit before overflow" rather than "clamp to MAX_INT"
18:16:11 <AnMaster> you need a fixed size for them
18:16:12 <ais523> hmm... another potential problem, is 16MB enough memory?
18:16:29 <ais523> AnMaster: pointers are fixed size, they're 26 bits long padded to 32
18:16:41 <ais523> 2 bits for the sort of memory to look in, 24 for the location there
18:16:41 <AnMaster> ais523, um, depends. Normal programs: yes mycology: no
18:16:45 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I found another thing
18:17:25 <ais523> argh, that's pretty tricky in brainfuck, I think I'll use the DJGPP solution
18:17:33 <ais523> which is to make the function always error out or return invalid data
18:17:38 <AnMaster> ais523, sysinfo need date and such too
18:17:49 <ais523> DJGPP's implementation of fork looks something like pid_t fork() {errno=ENOMEM; return -1;}
18:17:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well in that case I think cfunge may abort() on gettimeofday()
18:18:07 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway 16 MB isn't enough for mycology
18:18:14 <ais523> it's a lot simpler than cygwin's, but less useful
18:18:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because of ff*ky or something else as well?
18:18:30 <AnMaster> since HRTI does a test calling y several times
18:18:44 <AnMaster> I think without HRTI memory usage peek at around 11 MB
18:18:46 <ais523> AnMaster: well I'd probably try to compile fingerprintless cfunge
18:18:46 <Deewiant> yeah, I guess I could do something about that
18:18:55 <ais523> I'd like to compile C-INTERCAL too, but it has problems due to being a compiler
18:19:01 <AnMaster> so it is probably a bit more now
18:19:04 <ais523> which is that I'd have to port gcc to brainfuck to really get it working
18:19:13 <AnMaster> ais523, hm even core does some such stuff
18:19:17 <ais523> as in, write a brainfuck version of gcc
18:19:40 <AnMaster> time(NULL) to get current time in y
18:19:59 <AnMaster> befunge-93 would be a lot easier to handle there
18:20:03 <ais523> well y is going to have to lie in brainfuck without something like PSOX
18:20:09 <AnMaster> but befunge-98 need a lot more system interaction
18:20:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well you will have to claim you don't handle i or o either then
18:20:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and you will need to fake some environment variable and command line arguments
18:20:45 <ais523> shouldn't be much of a problem, really
18:20:47 <AnMaster> because they are both terminated by double \0
18:20:58 <ais523> I might try to do a GregorR and port a miniature OS to brainfuck
18:21:02 <AnMaster> anyway if either is empty it cause confusion
18:21:18 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the hash library I use for funge space may do other stuff
18:21:43 <AnMaster> mmap() and STDIO are, various string and memory routines
18:22:43 <ais523> AnMaster: using a deterministic method like Mersenne Twister, possibly prompting for random number seed on startup
18:22:55 <ais523> I could have it as an -mprompt-for-seed option to gcc, for instance
18:23:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I initialise it from current time
18:23:25 <ais523> AnMaster: it's easy enough to define srandom() to a nop
18:24:08 <ais523> but the more conforming way would be to get time() to return a magic value that causes srandom() to be a nop, and make it work in any other case
18:24:22 <AnMaster> ais523, fingerprints I *remember* use floating point: 3DSP, BASE, FPSP, FPDP
18:24:38 <tusho> this is making no sense to me
18:24:42 <ais523> AnMaster: luckily gcc comes with floating point emulation libraries
18:25:07 <AnMaster> if (gettimeofday(&tv, NULL)) {
18:25:07 <AnMaster> perror("Couldn't get time of day?!");
18:25:16 <ais523> AnMaster: that's POSIX, but I can handle it the same way as time() if needed, I'll get the C standard stuff working first, though
18:25:26 <Deewiant> side note: how to display tab as something other than ^I in irssi
18:25:35 <AnMaster> I never claimed it didn't make use of POSIX stuff
18:25:57 <ais523> AnMaster: I know, I was wondering how easy it would be to rip the problematic parts of POSIX out of it, probably not too hard but it would disable features
18:26:04 <ais523> running it unmodified would just be crazy
18:26:19 <AnMaster> ais523, oh you want to drop most fingerprints out, of you need to link ncurses for example
18:26:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: /set expand_escapes on or something like that.
18:26:23 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't, but at least it's better than Konversation which displays tab as toggling italics
18:26:27 <ais523> which is very confusing
18:26:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't know what else it expands when that toggle is on.
18:26:54 <AnMaster> well mine display it as a single space
18:27:26 <Deewiant> fizzie: isn't that for expanding \t to a tab character
18:27:31 <AnMaster> on the other hand I guess my ERC is nowdays spending more time in the hooks in my .emacs than in the core code ;)
18:27:35 <Deewiant> so \t becomes that fugly ctrl-I as well :-P
18:27:50 <ais523> here on Mibbit it displays it as 8 spaces, I think
18:28:03 <fizzie> Oh, it did that thing.
18:28:07 <Deewiant> I guess I'll have to dig into the source and make a modification
18:28:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: You could plug a Perl script into it too if you like that more.
18:28:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway STDIO is needed for Befunge
18:28:41 <Deewiant> I might not like it more but it might be easier :-P
18:28:47 <AnMaster> ais523, buffered STDIO too to be exact
18:29:02 <AnMaster> ais523, and working fflush(stdout)
18:29:04 <ais523> AnMaster: in what way does it need buffering?
18:29:16 <ais523> line buffering is easy because it hits buffering on the BF interp itself
18:29:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well the code of cfunge assumes that is happening
18:29:34 <ais523> and most good BF interps have a setting to flush after each character of output
18:29:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I read one line of input at a time
18:29:53 <ais523> AnMaster: well you get one line of input at a time
18:30:35 <ais523> does that do much the same thing as the ggets function that keeps getting posted to comp.lang.c?
18:30:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: scripts.irssi.org has tab_stop.pl.
18:31:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Replaces the evil inverted I with a configurable number of whitespaces"
18:31:18 <AnMaster> ais523, any glibc system would have it in glibc
18:31:22 <ais523> AnMaster: reads to the next newline and returns a malloced string
18:31:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I use a few gnulib functions like this for glibc specific ones
18:31:48 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes that is what it does
18:31:58 <AnMaster> anyway strndup() from gnulib too
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18:32:15 <ais523> tusho: AnMaster: dogface: I thought of a really evil way to do command line arguments for an esoprogram, I might use it for C-INTERCAL
18:32:25 <ais523> basically, a command line argument is one character
18:32:27 <ais523> including control codes
18:32:35 <ais523> except it goes from a # to the next newline
18:32:42 <ais523> that way you can have multicharacter options
18:32:54 <ais523> so for instance you might have -a^D#version
18:32:58 <tusho> http://waffles.fm/main.html <-- has waffles.fm bitten the dust?
18:33:04 <ais523> as a command line argument with 4 options
18:33:13 <tusho> "Admin Login" is just "Login".
18:33:14 <ais523> (^D represents control-D here)
18:33:30 <ais523> it was inspired by Nethack
18:33:32 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge uses getopt() to parse command line arguments, it assumes the strict POSIX variant, so once it hits a non-parameter the rest is befunge program name and command line arguments for that program
18:33:44 <tusho> http://ok.org/ totally needs something cooler than what is there
18:33:45 <Deewiant> the evil inverted I is stronger than Perl
18:33:49 <ais523> those controls work great interactively, not so much over a command line, which is where the evil comes from
18:34:10 <ais523> AnMaster: well that's sane, getopt is easy to reimplement anyway
18:34:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe it only replaces on privmsgs by others? Here's a tab: ... I hope that was a tab.
18:34:41 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if you don't use buffered STDIO a lot of befunge programs will behave strange
18:34:49 <AnMaster> ais523, for example returning too early
18:35:09 <AnMaster> ais523, however you can tell that you use unbuffered in y
18:35:19 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
18:35:28 <AnMaster> but then programs like the wumpus in befunge won't work
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18:35:39 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the last you saw?
18:35:45 <ais523> I was halfway through a sentence too
18:35:50 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if you don't use buffered STDIO a lot of befunge programs will behave strange
18:35:50 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, for example returning too early
18:35:51 <ais523> I think I hit back on my browser by mistake
18:35:53 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, however you can tell that you use unbuffered in y
18:35:56 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> but then programs like the wumpus in befunge won't work
18:36:02 <AnMaster> there was stuff other ppl said too
18:36:13 <ais523> AnMaster: it will be buffered the same way as the BF interp
18:36:23 <ais523> most BF interps I know line-buffer input
18:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you have to say which way in y
18:36:38 <AnMaster> ais523, also it need to flush stdout before any input
18:36:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: You probably need to signal_add it to some other sensible signal in addition to only "server incoming". But at least you're not starting from scratch.
18:36:44 <AnMaster> cfunge calls fflush() to do that
18:36:47 <ais523> AnMaster: I can add -mbuffered-input, I'll get the user to tell me during compile
18:37:09 <ais523> AnMaster: you can add new options to gcc
18:37:14 <ais523> to tell you about the target CPU
18:37:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well buffered output too
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18:37:22 <ais523> in this case the target "CPU" is actually a brainfuck interpreter
18:37:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: that may be what the FIXME: experimental is about :-P
18:37:31 <AnMaster> anyway I already do my own buffer for input
18:37:34 <ais523> so the user has to explain about the interp
18:37:44 <AnMaster> so input is less of a problem than output
18:37:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: The whole script looks a bit iffy.
18:37:48 <ais523> I assume 8-bit wrapping, though, it's much more difficult and time-consuming otherwise
18:38:10 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway another issue, threads in befunge, I plan to create a fingerprint that will only block the current thread on IO, a new version of SOCK
18:38:18 <Deewiant> fizzie: also, I don't think I can /set anything to only spaces
18:38:30 <AnMaster> oh and for such I need non-blocking IO too
18:38:34 <ais523> AnMaster: well don't expect that to work in brainfuck, possibly not in C-INTERCAL either
18:38:41 <ais523> non-blocking IO is fine for C-ITNERCAL though
18:39:07 <AnMaster> that will be in fingerprints of course
18:39:27 <ais523> AnMaster: select() will block the INTERCAL program too, but that's expected behaviour in a single-threaded program and I don't support concurrent
18:39:31 <AnMaster> ais523, oh how does variable length structs work in GCC?
18:39:38 <AnMaster> I assume they are taken care of at a higher level?
18:39:49 <AnMaster> cfunge use some structs with a foo bar[]; at the end
18:39:56 <ais523> AnMaster: they're pretty trivial really, it just takes the address of the last struct member
18:40:10 <ais523> gcc used to have that as an extension
18:40:17 <ais523> but its syntax was foo bar[0];
18:40:32 <AnMaster> The difference between -fno-peephole and -fno-peephole2 is in how they are
18:40:33 <AnMaster> implemented in the compiler; some targets use one, some use the other, a few use both.
18:40:38 <ais523> not sure if they accept C99 syntax too, probably they do because that probably wouldn't be a difficult change
18:40:39 <AnMaster> what is the difference exactly?
18:41:07 <ais523> AnMaster: -fno-peephole turns off RTL to asm peepholing, -fno-peephole2 turns off RTL to RTL peepholing
18:41:12 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc accepts the C99 syntax with -std=c99 at least
18:41:21 <ais523> RTL is the last intermediate language in the chain of languages that gcc translates the program between
18:41:25 <ais523> and is somewhat processor-dependent
18:41:46 <AnMaster> I remember GLIMPS or something like that being mentioned?
18:41:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: At least /set does not seem to be trimming any leading whitespace, so maybe just "/set whatever " to set to " " or something. Haven't tried.
18:41:57 <ais523> AnMaster: well, each frontend has its own internal representation, which is translated to GENERIC which is common between most of them
18:42:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: yes, I am messing around with it now and testing in a query
18:42:30 <ais523> that's translated to GIMPLE in a more-or-less processor-agnostic way (although the way it translates varargs is dependent on processor)
18:42:34 <tusho> ais523: i invented a method of encoding
18:42:42 <ais523> then from GIMPLE it's translated to RTL
18:42:45 <tusho> you type out some keys, then your reciever types them out and they make shaped
18:42:53 <AnMaster> ais523, does your stuff handle varargs?
18:43:00 <tusho> (space means end of shape, start new one)
18:43:08 <ais523> AnMaster: I think so, although I haven't tested that, or anything else for that matter
18:43:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well it needs to handle printf
18:43:23 <ais523> it's meant to handle varargs, and all other C89 features, also all C99 features that gcc have implemented
18:43:45 <AnMaster> ais523, an idea for how to check for what functions are used just hit me
18:43:51 <ais523> tusho: I used to do that using calculator keypads
18:44:01 <tusho> ais523: nm=never mind
18:44:05 <tusho> ais523: here, have a smiley face
18:44:09 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm on Windows at the moment
18:44:17 <AnMaster> nm - list symbols from object files
18:44:19 <ais523> due to forgetting to bring my laptop's power supply here
18:44:25 <AnMaster> Display the dynamic symbols rather than the normal symbols. This is only meaningful for dynamic objects, such as certain types of
18:44:34 <AnMaster> well it lists imported functions too
18:44:53 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/0ge9DV43.html
18:45:00 <fizzie> objdump would probably do it with different flags too.
18:45:00 <ais523> AnMaster: I used nm to find out which symbols in C-INTERCAL could cause namespace clashes and mangled them all
18:45:05 <ais523> nm won't work for gcc-bf though
18:45:09 <AnMaster> of course gcc will inline calls to memcpy and such on x86/x86_64 iirc
18:45:24 <ais523> partly because I implemented as as a front-end to cp
18:45:29 <ais523> and ar as a front-end to tar
18:45:38 <ais523> it seemed easiest, as the linker has to work on the asm implementation
18:45:50 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway a lot of those are only used in fingerprints, there is no way to disable compiling fingerprints, nor is it something I plan to do
18:45:55 <AnMaster> you can disable them at runtime
18:45:55 <ais523> this means that libgcc.a is in fact just a tar.gz of asm files with .o extensions
18:46:01 <AnMaster> which is useful in mycology sometimes
18:46:13 <AnMaster> and want to not have to scroll up a lot
18:46:19 <ais523> AnMaster: disabling compiling fingerprints is trivial, you just remove them all from the fingerprint description file
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18:46:21 <tusho> ais523 is not interested :(
18:46:33 <ais523> tusho: I am slightly, but can't figure out what you were trying to say
18:46:36 <AnMaster> ais523, except it will want one at least I think...
18:46:40 <tusho> ais523: it's a smiley face
18:46:59 <tusho> cde4567ujmnbvcrtfvg
18:47:02 <tusho> perhaps more legible
18:47:03 <ais523> AnMaster: NULL is trivial
18:47:05 <oklopol> the smiley face is everything that has been said after tusho's last message
18:47:11 <oklopol> if anyone needed that cleared up
18:47:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I think strange stuff may happen if it tries to use a for loop to iterate over a 0 length array...
18:47:26 <AnMaster> since I use sizeof(array) / sizeof(record) nowdays
18:47:47 <oklopol> i think i'm gonna poo and shit (pun intended) ->
18:47:57 <ais523> AnMaster: C's control structures are all designed to handle the 0-length edge case incidentally
18:48:01 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway... http://rafb.net/p/0ge9DV43.html are all the functions used by cfunge here
18:48:04 <ais523> except do-while, but you normally only use that one deliberately
18:48:30 <ais523> but NULL surely doesn't require standard library support
18:48:34 <ais523> nor ROMA for that matter
18:48:40 <AnMaster> there are a few more ones iirc
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18:49:07 <AnMaster> tusho, map some instructions to push roman numerals
18:49:10 <ais523> tusho: interprets capital letters as roman numerals
18:49:43 <AnMaster> ais523, SUBR, INDV shouldn't use anything except malloc() and such either if even that
18:50:07 <AnMaster> REFC use malloc() but you can't get away without malloc() for cfunge at all
18:50:09 <ais523> well obviously I'm going to have to implement malloc as just about every C program ever uses it
18:50:23 <AnMaster> ais523, malloc() calloc() free() memset() and a few more
18:50:38 <tusho> AnMaster-without-anmaster is pretty zen
18:50:43 <ais523> AnMaster: I think I'll implement all of stdlib.h, and find an implementation of stdio.h somewhere
18:50:48 <tusho> you get one person stating obvious things in a row for ages
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18:51:34 <ais523> gcc needs some headers on the target to exist to compile: string.h stdlib.h stdio.h time.h sys/types.h unistd.h
18:51:39 <ais523> but I only edited the last two with touch
18:51:43 <ais523> as they aren't standard C
18:51:47 <tusho> 10:14:17 <AnMaster> well I'm not ignoring tusho, nor do I think he is ignoring me
18:51:53 <tusho> i was just logreading and saw that
18:52:02 <tusho> AnMaster, you are actually on ignore :p
18:52:13 <ais523> tusho: happy mailman reminders day by the way
18:52:14 <fizzie> tusho: What's the point of the /ignore if you logread the stuff still?
18:52:21 <tusho> ais523: beat you to it yesterday
18:52:25 <tusho> for the australian agora list :)
18:52:32 <tusho> fizzie: i wanted to see if he's commented on my ignoring
18:52:40 <ais523> tusho: I wasn't here yesterday, and yesterday isn't mailman reminders day except in Australia
18:52:52 <AnMaster> just because he doesn't like GPL and wants to troll, then goes on to ignore me
18:53:31 <tusho> 10:49:07 <AnMaster> tusho, map some instructions to push roman numerals
18:53:35 <tusho> why did you answer to /dev/null...
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18:54:13 <tusho> 10:52:52 <AnMaster> just because he doesn't like GPL and wants to troll, then goes on to ignore me
18:54:22 <tusho> sorry trying to have a reasoned argument, i'll just blindly agree with you in future
18:54:22 <ais523> heh, at the moment ABI has a %devnull register which throws away data moved into it
18:54:27 <AnMaster> I do wish he stops highlighting me though
18:54:27 <ais523> which will be optimised away later
18:54:30 <tusho> well, after i stop /ignoring you
18:54:32 <AnMaster> and anyway it can't be called ignore
18:54:34 <tusho> i might just forget for a year or so
18:54:46 <psygnisfive> so someone tell me how C++'s grammar is unrestricted please
18:54:49 <tusho> 10:54:27 <AnMaster> I do wish he stops highlighting me though
18:54:53 <tusho> AnMaster: AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster
18:54:56 <tusho> psygnis__: logread.
18:55:00 <tusho> ais523 linked to an article
18:55:11 <ais523> psygnisfive: C++ is compile-time TC
18:55:25 <AnMaster> ais523, why such a strange register
18:55:43 <ais523> psygnisfive: using the template resolution mechanism
18:55:46 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway brainfuck doesn't *have* registers
18:55:50 <tusho> perhaps I'll just write a log searcher first
18:55:56 <tusho> yeah, good idea tusho
18:56:04 <AnMaster> also tusho: I too was trying to have a reasoned argument
18:56:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:56:05 <tusho> how can i make sure it already has the most recent logs...
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18:56:07 <ais523> AnMaster: due to generating code from filling in templates
18:56:16 <tusho> ah, wait, it can't log-tail then
18:56:16 <AnMaster> you just said what you thought
18:56:31 <ais523> and register in asm = data stored at a fixed location on the tape in BF
18:56:56 <ais523> AnMaster: sorry, I meant to higlight psygnisfive on the comment before last rather than you
18:57:03 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway how will you handle pointers? I think the generated code would be spectacularly slow
18:57:05 <ais523> but I'd been talking to you so much I typed the wrong name
18:57:19 <oklofok> compile-time tc equals unrestricted grammar?
18:57:28 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it will be, although pointers aren't that hard (just slow) and I've thought up several optimisations
18:57:38 <tusho> psygnisfive: god, stop going oklopol! whenever he talks
18:57:56 <ais523> oklofok: I don't think so necessarily, it rather depends on whether the grammar is the only thing relevant at compile-time
18:58:04 <oklofok> psygnisfive: having a tc type system automatically makes it impossible to parse in general?
18:58:19 <AnMaster> I mean 1) pointers, lots of them 2) cells in funge space can't be less than 4 bytes
18:58:20 <ais523> it could be, say, that the grammar was type 3 but some other step in the compilation was TC
18:58:28 <psygnisfive> unrestricted grammars are computationally equivalent to turing complete machines
18:58:35 <AnMaster> ais523, about every app would break with sub-32-bit cells
18:58:36 <ais523> AnMaster: well pointers are 26 bits, padded to 32
18:58:45 <ais523> and the cells are 32-bit
18:58:54 <AnMaster> ais523, that isn't brainfuck...
18:58:57 <psygnisfive> so if C++ is compile-time TC then theres some unrestricted grammar that goes along with it
18:59:05 <oklofok> psygnisfive: everyone knows that; ais523: we were talking about whether parsing is tc, not just compilation; tusho: true
18:59:06 <AnMaster> brainfuck got unsigned 8 bit...
18:59:09 <ais523> AnMaster: yes it is, the pointers are stored in 4 8-bit brainfuck cells
18:59:19 <ais523> just like on an x86 system
18:59:25 <tusho> oklofok: wait which part was true
18:59:26 <ais523> gcc is fine with storing data in more than one cell
18:59:33 <tusho> my telling psygnisfive not to okoping all the time?
18:59:38 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway cfunge uses function pointers
18:59:42 <oklofok> tusho: for c++ it is true, in case it's true
18:59:45 <ais523> AnMaster: they're fine too
18:59:45 <AnMaster> ais523, how the heck do you handle that?
18:59:48 <psygnisfive> oklofok: i know. apparently C++ is TC at compile time. earlier tho they said the syntax of C++ was itself unrestricted
18:59:51 <oklofok> i'm not sure whether it is
18:59:57 <AnMaster> ais523, huh... how can you do that in brainfuck
19:00:02 <oklofok> psygnisfive: yeah i'm a bit confused too
19:00:08 <ais523> AnMaster: each segment of code has a number
19:00:10 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to jump in code a lot
19:00:12 <tusho> psygnisfive: it is
19:00:15 <psygnisfive> because unrestructed grammars are a pain in the ass to parse.
19:00:18 <tusho> ais523: yo, you link him to the article.
19:00:34 <ais523> so every goto, label, and function call in the program is translated to a break in the BF code
19:00:43 <ais523> where it stores the number of the next block of code in some dedicated registers
19:00:52 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and you probably want to sed out all occurrences of the word "inline" in cfunge ;P
19:00:52 <ais523> then the whole body of the code is effectively a switch in a loop
19:00:57 <ais523> tusho: I don't know where it is offhand
19:01:00 <AnMaster> or the resulting code would be HUGE
19:01:24 <ais523> AnMaster: why, inline gives a better speed gain in BF than it does in other langs
19:01:29 <ais523> the resulting code's going to be HUGE anyway
19:01:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well code could grow a lot
19:01:40 <oklofok> A's type, or should i say kind, needs to be known @ "A < B > C", so it's unrestricted
19:01:43 <ais523> besides the better way is probably to set gcc's inlining flags
19:01:56 <ais523> it doesn't allow inline to grow the code by more than 50% by default, for instance
19:02:01 <ais523> it'll uninline things if it would
19:02:17 <ais523> AnMaster: you can change that, might be helpful for your speed optimisation
19:02:43 <ais523> worryingly I'm trying to optimise gcc-bf's output too
19:02:50 <oklofok> psygnisfive: i think i'd have to think for a while to answer that.
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19:02:52 <ais523> I assume a run-length-encoding interp though
19:03:05 <ais523> so I assume that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is as fast as >
19:03:06 <AnMaster> ais523, normal cfunge binary on x86, stripped, is around 109 KB
19:03:07 <oklofok> but i think i'll just sleep
19:03:11 <psygnisfive> oklofok: :P whats it mean tho to say that its kind needs to be known at ~??
19:03:35 <ais523> AnMaster: what about the insane -O3 version with funroll loops?
19:03:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have a copy around
19:03:51 <AnMaster> only other is 1.4 MB from debug info...
19:04:02 <oklofok> psygnisfive: i meant you need to know whether A is a type or an object, really, i think; "kind" was definitely the wrong term, and i'm not sure it's hard to know which one A is
19:04:07 <ais523> oh btw profile feedback won't work on gcc-bf
19:04:11 <ais523> nor will any debug format
19:04:15 <ais523> -g gives a warning that it was ignored
19:04:21 <psygnisfive> oklofok: i dont see how thats relevant to the syntax tho, see
19:04:32 <ais523> nor will nested functions, but those aren't standard C anyway
19:04:49 <oklofok> psygnisfive: well in case the types are TC, you need to resolve that stuff before you can parse A<B>C
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19:04:57 <oklofok> so you can't parse all cases at all
19:05:02 <oklofok> because the type system can infloop
19:05:03 <AnMaster> ais523, as far as I know I got no nested functions
19:05:17 <ais523> AnMaster: well you shouldn't have, they aren't C99 or POSIX, just a gcc extension
19:05:24 <psygnisfive> oklofok: oh right but types and stuff are done at compilation, they're not part of the syntax.
19:05:34 <ais523> they're sort of like lambdas but less useful because they can't have any scoping other than auto
19:05:35 <AnMaster> ais523, all GCC extensions I have (attributes mostly) are optiona
19:05:48 <oklofok> psygnisfive: you need to do them at the same time as the compilation though
19:05:55 <oklofok> the same time as the parsing
19:06:01 <ais523> heh, my header files simply #define __attribute__(x) to nothing if __GNUC__ isn't defined
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19:06:12 <oklofok> you can't parse without knowing the types, and you can't know the types unless you've parsed the program
19:06:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well yeah I do a bit more since ICC support *some* attributes
19:06:30 <ais523> I must have spent an hour or so writing stdio.h
19:06:36 <oklofok> psygnisfive: different parse trees depending on types, that's definitely true of C++
19:06:37 <ais523> even though I was copying from glibc
19:06:43 <ais523> (that's how it ended up LGPL2.1)
19:06:48 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge will fail badly without errno
19:07:20 <psygnisfive> oklofok: i still doubt that anything truly requires an unrestricted grammar. i cant even imagine how different types force different parses in a way that requires TCness.
19:07:29 <ais523> probably I should define numeric codes for the C99 errno codes, though
19:07:34 <AnMaster> ais523, the getline() from gnulib assumes that it will have reasonable values
19:07:55 <ais523> I find it's normally possible to rewrite programs around most restrictions
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19:08:09 <ais523> C-INTERCAL was POSIX originally, but I think it can be compiled without unistd.h nowadays
19:08:13 <ais523> nor any of the functions from it
19:08:24 <AnMaster> ais523, well befunge98 requires date/time
19:08:45 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe Befunge-108 should have an option for freestanding Befunge
19:08:48 <ais523> which doesn't assume an OS
19:08:49 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
19:08:52 <ais523> just like there's freestanding C
19:09:03 <AnMaster> ais523, um, the interpreter would have to handle it still
19:09:20 <ais523> it would be just a case of returning dummy information for some of y
19:09:36 <ais523> because Befunge-98 already allows not implementing i and o
19:10:35 <AnMaster> ais523, you will have to remove the signal(SIGPIPE, SIG_IGN); thingy
19:10:45 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/lUOFp085.html
19:10:57 <AnMaster> of course some are from fingerprints
19:11:00 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, what you just wrote is by definition a NOP in brainfuck
19:11:06 <ais523> you're telling it to ignore something that can't happen anyway
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19:11:43 <ais523> sort of like ABSTAIN FROM COMING FROM in INTERCAL-72
19:11:45 <AnMaster> ais523, you need a working printf anyway
19:11:53 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if C-INTERCAL correctly sees that as an error
19:12:21 <ais523> and yes, I'm going to implement or find from somewhere stdlib, stdio, and string, as programmers really assume they need those
19:12:39 * oerjan wonders if there are many programs using ABSTAIN FROM ABSTAINING
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19:13:31 <ais523> oerjan: probably not, when you're using ABSTAIN as control flow normally you aim for individual lines, and when you aim for a gerund it's usually NEXTING
19:13:32 <AnMaster> ais523, stdint, stdbool and so on too
19:13:49 <ais523> AnMaster: stdint's just macros, right? and stdbool is trivial in gcc
19:14:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well stdint is probably just typedefs
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19:14:24 <AnMaster> ais523, I think cfunge may use int64_t for some other stuff even if funge space is 32-bit
19:14:47 <AnMaster> but since that writes svg files...
19:14:55 <ais523> anyway I'm using a nice generic implementation method
19:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, TURT too depends on math.h
19:15:16 <ais523> probably I could add support for 128-bit integers without much trouble (I already have 64-bit long long due to C99)
19:15:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I decided against implementing LONG because it is unportable between 32-bit and 64-bit funges
19:15:30 <ais523> 256-bit would be harder as gcc has no name for a data type that large internally
19:15:37 <AnMaster> causing programs to be unportable rather
19:15:46 <ais523> I'm still faced with much the same problem, though
19:16:00 <ais523> which is: what's the most efficient way to multiply 64-bit numbers in 8-bit brainfuck?
19:16:01 <AnMaster> ais523, there is some vector extension?
19:16:07 <AnMaster> and GCC got __int128_t at least
19:16:16 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't use the vector extension
19:16:27 <ais523> and __int128_t will currently be emulated in software by gcc
19:16:41 <ais523> which will probably result in more or less the same code anyway
19:16:50 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, I was talking about gcc-bf
19:17:02 <ais523> which is fine with 64-bit numbers (it stores them in 8 consecutive registers or memory locations)
19:17:14 <AnMaster> ais523, how many registers do you have=
19:17:32 <ais523> 5 fixed registers at current
19:17:38 <ais523> but probably I'll have more eventually
19:17:44 <ais523> (fixed = gcc's name for special purpose)
19:18:09 <ais523> 4 registers which are a combined pc and cc0, and one scratch register
19:18:21 <AnMaster> oh btw I was thinking of generating code at runtime, using JIT with LLVM, could be rather interesting
19:18:26 <ais523> also I have stack pointer and a stack of frame pointers, but they're represented in unary for speed
19:18:29 <AnMaster> I think JITing funge would work
19:19:06 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge's stack can grow rather large I think
19:19:18 <AnMaster> probably outside what 8 bits could represent for size
19:19:50 <ais523> AnMaster: well gcc-bf supports an unlimited size stack, but you can't take pointers to it or pass structures to or from functions if it grows beyond 16 MB
19:20:05 <ais523> AnMaster: condition code, which holds the result of a comparison
19:20:24 <AnMaster> and I do take pointers to stuff on stack all the time
19:20:42 <ais523> AnMaster: not a problem, the stack pointer is represented by two consecutive 0s in a long run of 1s on every sixth tape element
19:20:48 <AnMaster> since I prefer variable on stack and pointer rather than having to remember to free
19:20:55 <ais523> so you can get to the stack pointer easily with [[>>>>>>]>>>>>>]
19:21:15 <ais523> and pointers to the stack are 24-bit integers with an extra byte stating that they're on the stack
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19:21:26 <ais523> and yes, I agree with you, alloca was probably invented for that purpose
19:21:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I got some 1024 * 8 bytes arrays on stack in one function or another iirc
19:21:37 <ais523> pity it isn't standard C really, probably some systems can't manage it
19:21:57 <AnMaster> actually it may be char buf[1024]
19:21:57 <ais523> AnMaster: 8KB is fine, although might take a while to access
19:22:21 <ais523> BTW can cfunge cope with 16-bit int?
19:22:32 <ais523> it ought to be able to if you use types correctly, hardly anyone does though
19:22:37 <ais523> C-INTERCAL can't, I know
19:23:00 <AnMaster> I probably use int32_t most of the time
19:23:02 <ais523> ideally I should be able to set sizeof(int)=2 in gcc-bf, but everything assumes it's 4 nowadays so I'll have it as a command-line option
19:23:46 <AnMaster> anyway stack won't ever get 16 MB
19:24:34 <ais523> I think I know how to implement pointers larger than 26-bit
19:24:50 <ais523> hmm... how many BF interpreters can cope with over 72 million successive > signs?
19:24:51 <AnMaster> ais523, fingerprints use a *lot* of function pointers, remember that
19:25:03 <ais523> AnMaster: function pointers are in a separate memory space
19:25:03 <AnMaster> and I have a static array with function pointers
19:25:15 <ais523> which allows 16 mebifunctions
19:25:35 <ais523> mebi=2^20 just like mega=10^6
19:25:37 <AnMaster> anyway I got way more than 16 functions that I use function pointers to
19:25:39 <Deewiant> ais523: 72 million? that's what, 300 megabytes of memory?
19:25:48 <ais523> Deewiant: no, 72 megabytes
19:25:58 <Deewiant> ais523: is each cell not 4 bytes
19:26:02 <ais523> AnMaster: so you have over 16 million total functions + labels
19:26:08 <ais523> Deewiant: no, 8-byte cells
19:26:16 <Deewiant> ais523: so then it's more like 600 megabytes
19:26:18 <ais523> if you store an int it's stored in 4 successive cells
19:26:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I do use goto for error handling in FILE and SOCK where I need similiar clean up paths in a lot of cases
19:26:35 <AnMaster> otherwise goto is very very sparse
19:26:38 <ais523> it uses a bit over 72 million cells
19:26:49 <ais523> AnMaster: everything's translated into goto in the asm anyway
19:26:55 <ais523> so it doesn't matter what it was in your code
19:26:57 <AnMaster> ais523, well I meant at C level
19:27:05 <ais523> while is a convenience for the programmer, not for the compiler
19:27:17 <AnMaster> I'm sure of that functions call are not goto
19:27:24 <ais523> AnMaster: call/ret is also translated into goto the way I'm doing things
19:27:30 <ais523> it pushes a label onto the stack first
19:27:33 <ais523> then gotos the function
19:27:33 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw I sometimes return structs
19:27:39 <ais523> the function pops a label from the stack
19:27:51 <AnMaster> not sure if you can handle that
19:28:02 <ais523> AnMaster: if you're using gcc, no you don't, it automatically rewrites that as pass by reference
19:28:21 <ais523> but if the struct's 64 bits or smaller it stores it in a long long instead and it doesn't matter that it's a struct
19:28:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hm doesn't make sense since I construct that in *return*
19:28:38 <AnMaster> return (fungeVector) { .x = x, .y = y };
19:28:47 <AnMaster> not sure where it would place the reference
19:29:12 <ais523> AnMaster: the function that calls it allocates space for a fungeVector on the stack and passes a pointer to it to the function that returns a fungeVector
19:29:28 <ais523> then the function returning a fungeVector stores in the memory referenced by that pointer
19:29:36 <AnMaster> ais523, but that breaks AMD64 ABI
19:29:37 <ais523> AnMaster: that's how gcc and most other compilers handle struct returns
19:29:47 <AnMaster> AMD64 ABI would return that struct in registers
19:29:50 <ais523> except it modifies it to conform with ABIs if possible
19:30:03 <ais523> it does use registers for things 64-bit and smaller, I think
19:30:12 <ais523> except to conform with someone else's ABI
19:30:25 <AnMaster> I think, but I'm not sure, that AMD64 ABI splits such a struct up over 2 registers...
19:30:32 <ais523> and probably can handle 128-bit structs too on systems which can normally return long long longs in registers, don't know how many of those exist though
19:30:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just compile with optimizations on and look at the asm
19:30:58 <ais523> for instance atm the gcc-bf ABI returns 64-bit integers and structs in registers r0-r7
19:31:08 <ais523> AnMaster: no it doesn't, but what else could you call a 128-bit int?
19:31:35 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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19:31:36 <ais523> well yes, but long long long has a swing to it
19:33:12 <ais523> tusho: I want 24-bit ints!
19:33:24 <ais523> there are a whole lot of missing lengths of integers
19:33:32 <tusho> ais523: what would long short be?
19:33:34 <ais523> actually mysql has a 24-bit data type AFAIR
19:33:36 <AnMaster> struct foo { unsigned int bar:24; }
19:33:42 <tusho> what about negative half trit
19:33:48 <tusho> turkey booooooooooomb!
19:33:55 <ais523> AnMaster: interesting, I wonder if that's 3 bytes on gcc-bf?
19:34:04 <ais523> I've told the compiler not to pad anywhere unless the user asks for it
19:34:07 <ais523> or to make whole bytes
19:34:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well I never tried anything but one bit bitfields
19:34:25 <AnMaster> but iirc other values than 1 work too
19:34:35 <ais523> AnMaster: most compilers will give you a 32-bit struct if you do that
19:34:40 <ais523> with 8 bits of padding
19:34:48 <ais523> at least on most processors
19:34:59 <ais523> but will access it like a 24-bit unsigned int
19:35:06 <ais523> by ignoring the top 8 bits
19:35:07 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge uses bitfields, I made sure the structs had as few holes as possible on x86 and x86_64 using both 32-bit and 64-bit funges
19:35:19 <AnMaster> used a tool the kernel developers made: pahole
19:35:28 <AnMaster> it reads the debug info from -g and lists any holes
19:35:31 <ais523> AnMaster: I know, you told me earlier
19:36:18 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway how do you do bitfields in your gcc-bf?
19:36:35 <ais523> it takes lots of bitwise operations
19:36:38 <AnMaster> ais523, as in slow? or incorrect?
19:36:44 <ais523> AnMaster: very slow but correct
19:36:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well cfunge will be hellish slow then
19:36:49 <ais523> lots of multiplication and division in loops
19:36:57 <AnMaster> ais523, since it accesses a few bitfields for every instruction executed
19:37:27 <AnMaster> ipMode mode; ///< String or code mode.
19:37:28 <AnMaster> bool needMove:1; ///< Should ipForward be called at end of main loop. Is reset to true each time.
19:37:28 <AnMaster> bool stringLastWasSpace:1; ///< Used in string mode for SGML style spaces.
19:37:28 <ais523> AnMaster: probably it would be worth having a mode that unpacked the bitfields into one unsigned char per bitfield
19:37:44 <AnMaster> ais523, not really on x86/x86_64
19:37:58 <ais523> oh, I think it's probably a lot faster on gcc-bf if you don't have many bits in your bitfield
19:38:07 <ais523> but chars will still be faster still
19:38:08 <tusho> oh wow, some intercal code! in the wild!
19:38:13 <AnMaster> bool fingerSUBRisRelative:1; ///< Data for fingerprint SUBR.
19:38:20 <ais523> tusho: whwew did you find it?
19:38:30 <tusho> ais523: i'd tell you but then i'd have to kill you
19:38:35 <tusho> not a good deal overall i think
19:38:57 <ais523> AnMaster: are these constant structs?
19:39:00 <ais523> or do they change over time
19:39:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I was just about to ask you :-P
19:39:03 <AnMaster> ais523, no that is in ip struct
19:39:19 <AnMaster> ais523, and is checked once every time in main loop
19:39:31 <ais523> anyway I suspect gcc-bf will be painfully slow if run on an ordinary BF interpreter
19:40:09 <AnMaster> ais523, you could create one that reverse compile it to C...
19:40:18 <Deewiant> more code, and probably slower
19:40:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as I said, there was no noticable difference
19:40:37 <ais523> AnMaster: well I'm going to litter the output with optimisation data
19:40:52 <Deewiant> but it's one extra instruction for each access :-P
19:40:52 <ais523> such as @4 to mean "the pointer is now at cell 4 of the tape"
19:40:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I'm not that speed crazy
19:41:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, plus this means it will fit into my L2 cache ;)
19:41:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: surely it'd be cached anyway
19:41:50 <tusho> GREN THINGS DEVEOTED TO MACHINESSSSSSSSSSS
19:41:54 <tusho> SDFSDS;DFSL;FKSDFL;KD;AKD;ASDK;ASDK;ALSD^G^G^G^G
19:42:09 <AnMaster> heck even the P3 near here got larger cache
19:42:10 <tusho> KJLjkLJklJKLjLjkLJlkJljKLjlkklJ
19:42:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you could probably fit a BF interp written in asm into it, those can be very small indeed
19:42:37 <ais523> 128 KB isn't very small!
19:42:47 <AnMaster> and of course it will have lot of other stuff
19:42:49 <tusho> HO HO I HEARTY LAFF
19:42:51 <tusho> LAFFLAFLAFLAFLALFAF
19:43:01 <ais523> by "very small" I thought you meant a few hundred bytes, that's what I'm used to working with sometimes
19:43:13 <tusho> PIGS HOW DO YOU LAFGHU
19:43:47 <AnMaster> ais523, modern x86 can have caches larger than 2-3 MB these days
19:44:01 <ais523> AnMaster: even in the L1?
19:44:21 <AnMaster> for L1 the most I seen is 512 kb
19:44:39 <tusho> iDISAGREElol,wiht ur jiaoj ioj
19:44:52 <AnMaster> why do we have a randomness generator in here?
19:45:08 <ais523> AnMaster: we have at least two. optbot, fungot, hi!
19:45:08 <optbot> ais523: If anybody wishes: Throw a runtime exception with the message "I'm in ur channel throwin ur exceptionz."
19:45:09 <fungot> ais523: paste all the urls i've visited. strange.) an earlier version of sql but not without? :p. ugh i need to enter " qemu" to edit a file that has ?scm ( fnord " source-file.scm"))
19:45:18 <optbot> Deewiant: !bf8 +[<+>+<+>+<+>+<+]
19:45:18 <optbot> fungot: even ignoring the fact that you've read his book
19:45:18 <fungot> optbot: it was too easy heh one time i figured out my bug :d)
19:45:19 <optbot> fungot: you lose, by a lot
19:45:19 <optbot> AnMaster: Knock knock.
19:45:20 <fungot> AnMaster: it doesn't look like it does the fnord i want to do is to write a render procedure for sdl is just a value that prints as void. it is a load of hell. twice. most confusing. :p ( although theoretically speaking i could try.
19:45:21 <fungot> optbot: i'm certain he isn't annoying at all. the code i write, more should be all set)) f
19:45:22 <fungot> optbot: actually just parsing ski says. remember physics 103, modern physics, general functions i suppose.
19:45:23 <optbot> fungot: indeed. everything is subjective
19:45:25 <fungot> optbot: fopen(3) freebsd library functions manual fopen(3)
19:45:26 <optbot> fungot: the short way ;)
19:45:27 <fungot> optbot: i made it up as much as cheap jokes would like you to die, but it does not render via cocoa, and qt/ kde
19:45:28 <optbot> fungot: Jim is pretty much a light Tcl interpreter, with nice things like "closures" added.
19:46:13 <tusho> 4 COMIC EFFECT CLEAN MAKER 2!!!!!!
19:49:24 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if you want floating point to work with cfunge means float will be exactly 32-bit and double exactly 64-bits
19:49:35 <AnMaster> since I have to mess around with unions
19:49:54 <ais523> don't worry, those are exactly the sizes of floating point I'm using
19:49:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: aren't there float32_t types
19:49:59 <ais523> although long double = double
19:50:19 <AnMaster> ais523, that is fine, while I do use long double I never depend on it's size
19:50:21 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't think so, systems on which float wasn't 32 bits almost certainly wouldn't implement them so it would be pointless
19:50:39 <ais523> Deewiant: float formats are a lot more varied than int formats
19:51:32 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge will need both sin() and sinf() then, and you would just map sinl() to sin()
19:51:57 <ais523> Deewiant: different processors have different sort of float support, for instance things like the 387 work in 80-bit float internally, so it can cause problems by having too much precision internally as double is only 64
19:52:15 <Deewiant> ais523: why would that be a problem
19:52:19 <AnMaster> and long double on x86_64 is 128-bits
19:52:26 <Deewiant> an algorithm that relies on a certain bittiness is broken anyway
19:52:40 <ais523> that's one example, most compilers have an option to emulate exact 64-bit double and normally just switch between 64 and 80 at will because normally too much precision is not a problem
19:53:19 <Deewiant> ais523: I still don't see why that would prevent a float32_t from existing
19:53:24 <ais523> but gcc has options to work exactly to the spec and use exactly the right amount of precision by copying the float values into memory and back every operation
19:53:45 <ais523> Deewiant: it would have to be implemented in software, slowing the program down a lot and requiring floating point emulation libraries
19:54:03 <Deewiant> ais523: it doesn't have to have any specific characteristics
19:54:20 <Deewiant> if you have 36-bit floats you can have 32-bit floats which just have 4 bits of the exponent always zero
19:54:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> but gcc has options to work exactly to the spec and use exactly the right amount of precision by copying the float values into memory and back every operation
19:54:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's one of the -mwhatever options on x86, I know because I was reading the gcc manual last night
19:55:00 <tusho> jkjlkjlfkdjkdlfjfdg
19:55:06 <tusho> AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant AIS523 AnMaster Deewiant
19:55:21 <Deewiant> tusho: congrats, you're the first person I've ignored in years
19:56:12 <AnMaster> ais523, but iirc that sets some floating point control register
19:56:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think so, but I can't remember what the option was offhand, it had some long name
19:56:29 <Deewiant> mfpmath rings a bell, related?
19:56:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is for selecting x87 or see
19:57:09 <AnMaster> they are for alignment in structs
19:57:40 <tusho> i wonder if i can get ignored by everyone in #esoteric
19:58:01 <fizzie> AnMaster, ais523: are you sure you don't mean -ffloat-store?
19:58:17 <ais523> fizzie: ah, that might be it
19:58:24 <fizzie> "Do not store floating point variables in registers -- This option prevents undesirable excess precision --"
19:58:48 <ais523> tusho: well I just ignored you to help you with your mission, I'll probably unignore you again in a bit
19:58:50 <AnMaster> but what about setting the control register of x87?
19:58:58 <tusho> fizzie: /ignore me, would you?
19:59:06 <tusho> FUNNY JOKE POSSIBILITY:
19:59:10 <tusho> fizzie stays silent
19:59:13 <AnMaster> funny, I don't plan to ignore tusho
19:59:14 <tusho> ...because he's already ignoring me
19:59:14 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's what I was thinking of
19:59:42 <AnMaster> ironic that tusho can't read this
20:00:04 <ais523> I'll paste it, I'm ignoring tusho but I don't think tusho's ignoring me
20:00:16 <ais523> 19:59AnMasterfunny, I don't plan to ignore tusho 19:59AnMastermentally sure 19:59AnMasterbut not with client 19:59AnMasterironic that tusho can't read this
20:00:26 <tusho> AnMaster i see you
20:00:29 <tusho> i see you with my eyes
20:00:33 <tusho> through ais523's eyes.
20:00:43 <tusho> ^echo HELLO WORLD HEAR ME ROAR
20:00:44 <fungot> HELLO WORLD HEAR ME ROAR HELLO WORLD HEAR ME ROAR
20:00:47 <AnMaster> well I don't plan to paste back what tusho said
20:00:52 <tusho> ^bf ,[.,]!ah this is better
20:01:02 <tusho> ^bf ,[.,]!so Deewiant... adhisaweh8q2y381786*(y88 PANCAKES
20:01:02 <fungot> so Deewiant... adhisaweh8q2y381786*(y88 PANCAKES
20:01:07 <ais523> I might logread it later
20:01:47 <AnMaster> ais523, does c-intercal compile with ICC?
20:02:02 <ais523> AnMaster: never tried, it should compile with most things though
20:02:16 <AnMaster> ais523, icc supports a lot of GCC extensions btw, it even defines __GNUC__ by default to get GNU specific stuff from system headers
20:02:16 <ais523> it even used to compile with pre-C89 C
20:02:42 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:02:50 <AnMaster> but cfunge manage without those (-no-gcc to ICC)
20:03:37 <AnMaster> ais523, ah it will have to wait since I can't do out of tree build
20:03:44 <AnMaster> don't feel like making a copy of the source
20:05:22 <AnMaster> ais523, as I don't have icc on my amd64 (for obvious reasons) I would nfs mount the source and compile it on the p3 using icc
20:05:23 <ais523> AnMaster: to me building out of tree is just extra complexity to the user, besides it does build out of tree just the out of tree place it builds is a fixed place elsewhere in the tree
20:05:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is not really out of tree
20:05:53 <AnMaster> I normally have several different builds of cfunge
20:06:29 <ais523> AnMaster: well you can create a new tree with just the base directory with configure and an empty lib, include, bin, and temp, symlink the src directory, and reconfigure
20:06:38 <ais523> that's how you do an out of tree C-INTERCAL build
20:06:44 <ais523> admittedly that isn't obvious though
20:06:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well that seems complex
20:06:56 <AnMaster> ais523, but I suggest supporting it the real way
20:08:06 <ais523> it would be pretty easy to support actually, you could just have the configure script create lib include bin and temp, and symlink src, then compile the normal way
20:08:16 <ais523> or have an out-of-tree-configure which was a wrapper
20:09:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well I suggest doing it like everyone else does
20:10:05 <ais523> <AnMaster> ais523, well I suggest doing it like everyone else does <--- I think you are missing the point of INTERCAL
20:11:44 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the command to check out darcs now again?
20:11:55 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
20:12:26 <ais523> darcs pull http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/
20:12:37 <AnMaster> darcs failed: Unable to "darcs pull" here.
20:12:37 <AnMaster> You need to be in a repository directory to run this command.
20:12:45 <tusho> ais523 can't see that
20:12:48 <tusho> but i think AnMaster can
20:12:50 <tusho> if you can, say yes
20:12:53 <ais523> tusho: yes I can, I unignored you about 2 minutes ago
20:13:01 <ais523> but that's the first thing you did since
20:13:43 <AnMaster> ais523, does darcs work over nfs?
20:13:58 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea, I don't see why not though
20:14:56 <AnMaster> -xK -march=pentium3 -O3 -ipo -no-prec-div
20:15:20 <AnMaster> ais523, please makde config.sh +x
20:15:33 <ais523> AnMaster: bug in darcs, it is at my end but darcs forgets file permissions
20:15:38 <ais523> probably the most famous bug in darcs
20:16:02 <ais523> tusho: no, it's a bug, just it's really difficult to fix for some reason or they would have fixed it already I suspect
20:16:13 <AnMaster> checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... yes
20:16:18 <tusho> ais523: darcs development has slooooooooowed to a crawl
20:16:22 <ais523> AnMaster: it check for __GNUC__
20:16:25 <tusho> and a buncha people are switching darcs -> git
20:16:30 <tusho> i think it's on death row, it just doesn't know it yet
20:16:39 <AnMaster> ais523, && !defined(__INTEL_COMPILER)
20:16:53 <ais523> AnMaster: that test is to see if gcc extensions can be used
20:16:55 <AnMaster> src/oil.y(466): remark #810: conversion from "int" to "char" may lose significant bits
20:17:00 <ais523> there are other tests for things like command line arguments
20:17:11 <AnMaster> src/dekludge.c(55): remark #1419: external declaration in primary source file
20:17:11 <AnMaster> extern void prexpr(node *np, FILE* fp, int freenode); /* AIS */
20:17:32 <AnMaster> ais523, there should be no extern in C files in icc's opinion
20:17:47 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, and storing the result of getchar in a char is a reasonable thing to do IMO once you've verified separately that it isn't EOF
20:17:57 <ais523> AnMaster: what about extern int errno?
20:18:10 <AnMaster> ais523, since at least here it is not an int
20:18:13 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but that's included into your source
20:18:43 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I know, that's how I do it too
20:18:53 <ais523> what I'm saying is shouldn't it complain about the extern in errno.h?
20:19:02 <ais523> or does it give header files a free pass?
20:19:18 <AnMaster> icc: command line remark #10148: option '-W' not supported
20:19:19 <AnMaster> icc: command line warning #10120: overriding '-O2' with '-O3'
20:19:25 <AnMaster> ais523, if you want all warnings try -Wall
20:19:33 <ais523> it has both -W and -Wall I think
20:19:45 <AnMaster> ais523, so better check such stuff
20:19:50 <ais523> -W is the old name for -Wextra in gcc, and C-INTERCAL is stuck in the past
20:20:00 <AnMaster> ais523, consider being portable?
20:20:15 <ais523> AnMaster: it's portable in theory but hasn't been tested on non-gcc compilers for years
20:20:20 <ais523> so some gccisms may have snuck in
20:20:24 <ais523> without anyone noticing
20:20:41 <AnMaster> src/abcess.h(210): remark #193: zero used for undefined preprocessing identifier
20:20:41 <AnMaster> #if (MULTITHREAD != 0) || (YUKDEBUG != 0) || defined(ICK_EC)
20:20:42 <ais523> oh, some of the external calls stuff relies on gnu ld to work
20:20:44 <tusho> so who agrees with me: random noise pixels look pretty
20:20:56 <AnMaster> I think it may not do what you want
20:21:11 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, I do, it's a little-known feature of the C preprocessor which is confusing
20:21:23 <ais523> that undefined preprocessing identifiers are treated as 0 in #if
20:21:44 <AnMaster> src/abcess.h(112): remark #310: old-style parameter list (anachronism)
20:21:52 <tusho> well i was just logreading
20:21:59 <tusho> intercal is meant to be different in every way
20:22:02 <tusho> for no reason at all.
20:22:04 <tusho> get that in to your head.
20:22:08 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:22:26 <AnMaster> src/lexer.l(308): (col. 13) remark: REVERSED LOOP WAS VECTORIZED.
20:22:27 <AnMaster> src/lexer.l(307): (col. 13) remark: REVERSED LOOP WAS VECTORIZED.
20:22:27 <AnMaster> src/lexer.l(306): (col. 13) remark: REVERSED LOOP WAS VECTORIZED.
20:22:32 <ais523> AnMaster: I probably would have if I caught it earlier, I had to add prototypes to bits of C-INTERCAL earlier, though
20:22:58 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc does that too at -O3, it just doesn't tell you about it unless you ask it to
20:23:21 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I hadn't heard about it back then and the conversion was years ago
20:23:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well default is to tell
20:23:30 <AnMaster> ais523, how can you get gcc to tell you btw?
20:23:49 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure by the way, it's probably in one of the debugging dumps
20:24:01 <ais523> gcc tends not to have options to shout at you whenever it does an optimisation
20:24:20 <ais523> AnMaster: yesterday for fun I turned on all the debug dumps on a very simple program and it created about 100 of them
20:24:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well there are optimising log verbosity(sp?) level for icc
20:24:49 <AnMaster> temp/oilout03.c(3): remark #1418: external function definition with no prior declaration
20:24:49 <AnMaster> int optimize_pass1_3(node *np)
20:25:06 <AnMaster> it thinks there should either be a prototype in a header or it should be static
20:25:18 <AnMaster> ais523, and GCC will say that too with the right switches
20:25:33 <ais523> AnMaster: there is in most cases, that function results from splitting optimize_pass1 into smaller pieces so it doesn't crash gcc on ia64 though
20:25:38 <ais523> that bug was reported by Debian
20:25:48 <AnMaster> ais523, hm here is one that *could* be bad, or *could* be just a false positive:
20:25:49 <AnMaster> temp/oilout01.c(106): remark #981: operands are evaluated in unspecified order
20:25:50 <AnMaster> x=x3; c=c3; if(!(!(x&2863311530LU)&&iselect(x,1431655765LU)==xselx(iselect(x,1431655765LU)))) break;
20:26:13 <ais523> iselect and xselx are both pure functions
20:26:23 <ais523> so it doesn't matter which order they're evaluated in
20:26:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well how do you do linking?
20:26:52 <AnMaster> I think ICC will break if you call ld
20:27:04 <AnMaster> ais523, icc will do cross-object optimising
20:27:10 <AnMaster> so it will put those together again
20:27:17 <ais523> AnMaster: and crash on IA64?
20:27:33 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe it has more memory than the Debian autobuilders
20:27:48 <ais523> btw I also managed to get it to crash even on x86 once, the split avoided that problem
20:28:01 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc is very memory hungry
20:28:43 <AnMaster> sh -c "(test -f /home/anmaster/local/ick/share/info/ick.igz && : --quiet --dir-file=`echo /dev/null` /home/anmaster/local/ick/share/info/ick.igz) || true"
20:28:46 <ais523> <n1124.pdf> After all replacements due to macro expansion and the defined unary operator have been performed, all remaining identifiers are replaced with the pp-number 0, and then each preprocessing token is converted into a token.
20:29:19 <ais523> I think things must have been evaluated in the wrong order
20:29:23 <ais523> still, it comes to the right thing
20:29:32 <ais523> and besides it's running : which ignores all its arguments anyway
20:29:49 <ais523> ah, the joys of autoconf
20:30:21 <AnMaster> ais523, will ick use $CC or gcc?
20:30:36 <AnMaster> the actual compiler compiles with icc
20:30:38 <ais523> AnMaster: it /ought/ to use $CC, that hasn't been tested for years though
20:30:44 <ais523> so quite possibly doesn't work
20:31:14 <AnMaster> beer.c -I/usr/include/ick-0.28 -I. -I./../include -L/usr/lib -L. -L./../lib -O2 -o beer -lick
20:31:29 <AnMaster> beer.c(3016): warning #177: label "L1910" was declared but never referenced
20:32:09 <ais523> well there are lots of unused labels in the result
20:32:30 <ais523> AnMaster: try it without the CC=
20:32:40 <AnMaster> ais523, my /usr/bin/cc is gcc so...
20:32:50 <ais523> I think it tries to use the value of CC there was at compile time if there isn't a CC in the environment
20:32:57 <AnMaster> /opt/intel/cc/10.1.018/bin/icc
20:33:14 <ais523> anyway I'm glad it works with non-gcc compilers
20:33:26 <ais523> at least ones which take much the same options
20:33:36 <AnMaster> ais523, no warnings without $CC set
20:33:37 <ais523> AnMaster: what, the compile, or the compiled program?
20:34:01 <AnMaster> ==8602== definitely lost: 500 bytes in 16 blocks.
20:34:07 <ais523> AnMaster: that's bad, the compile is known to leak loads but I didn't think compiled programs leaked
20:34:11 <AnMaster> ==8602== 36 bytes in 8 blocks are definitely lost in loss record 1 of 3
20:34:11 <AnMaster> ==8602== at 0x4006D6E: malloc (vg_replace_malloc.c:207)
20:34:11 <AnMaster> ==8602== by 0x8057679: ick_resize (in /home/anmaster/c-intercal/pit/beer)
20:34:11 <AnMaster> ==8602== by 0x8056A1B: main (in /home/anmaster/c-intercal/pit/beer)
20:34:17 <AnMaster> ==8602== 464 bytes in 8 blocks are definitely lost in loss record 3 of 3
20:34:18 <AnMaster> ==8602== at 0x4006D6E: malloc (vg_replace_malloc.c:207)
20:34:18 <AnMaster> ==8602== by 0x80576FC: ick_resize (in /home/anmaster/c-intercal/pit/beer)
20:34:18 <AnMaster> ==8602== by 0x8056A1B: main (in /home/anmaster/c-intercal/pit/beer)
20:34:29 <ais523> oh, I thnk I know what that might be
20:34:35 <ais523> let me check something
20:35:30 <ais523> at the very end of the program it isn't freeing the contents of arrays
20:35:33 <ais523> just the pointers to them
20:35:36 <tusho> ais523: stop talking to yourself
20:35:40 <tusho> there's like 50 lines of just you
20:35:46 <ais523> easy enough to fix though, so I may as well
20:35:48 <AnMaster> ICL778I UNEXPLAINED COMPILER BUG
20:36:05 <ais523> oh, with +help it's fine
20:36:26 <ais523> after +help runs there used to be a simulated segfault
20:36:46 <ais523> I took the time delay out of it, but there's still an internal error
20:36:46 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway CC from compile time isn't used
20:36:52 <ais523> which is invoked deliberately
20:37:11 <AnMaster> ais523, how would I test some of the ec features
20:37:16 <ais523> it probably should be and there's support from it in the code, looks like I'm going to have to tweak the build process again
20:37:23 <AnMaster> give me a command line for ick in pit
20:37:50 <ais523> ick -beE beer.i syslibc
20:38:19 <AnMaster> ais523, just two labels that weren't used this time
20:38:31 <AnMaster> ais523, also how to send some cflags on to ICC
20:38:37 <AnMaster> as it is in a gcc compatiblity mode by default
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20:38:48 <AnMaster> need to send -no-gcc to tell it to not try to support GCC extensions
20:38:54 <ais523> AnMaster: you can put them in $CC I think
20:39:42 <dogface> I don't like how irssi's auto-reconnect doesn't work.
20:40:05 <AnMaster> /tmp/syslibc.c(54): remark #174: expression has no effect
20:40:05 <AnMaster> do { if(0) { ick_l2_65540 : ; if(ick_global_linelabel != (1010) || (1010) > 65535) goto ick_l2_65541 ; ick_global_checkmode = 0; } 0 ; ick_checksuckpoint(1010); } while(0);
20:40:18 <dogface> Seems that it tries to reconnect once, and if that fails, it forgets about the server's existence.
20:40:22 <ais523> AnMaster: it's complaining about the 0;
20:40:29 <ais523> AnMaster: crosseed messages...
20:40:37 <ais523> hmm... I wonder why there's a 0; there anyway
20:40:59 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/QXAv9U46.html
20:41:19 <AnMaster> ais523, could be some real useful warnings
20:42:05 <ais523> the one on line 30 of the paste looks genuine, that's a gcc extension I triggered by accident (it allows stray semicolons as null declarations, C doesn't)
20:42:27 <AnMaster> ais523, the one on 62 also looks valid
20:42:45 <ais523> AnMaster: no, the one on 62's bogus
20:42:54 <ais523> the variable could have been used but wasn't
20:43:04 <ais523> think of it like a library function that's never used
20:43:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well it was never in the generated code
20:43:24 <ais523> AnMaster: it could have been substituted in with a macro
20:43:31 <ais523> but I never used that macro in syslibc
20:44:05 <AnMaster> ais523, also "expression has no effect" looks valid to me
20:45:34 <ais523> AnMaster: nah, that's fine, it's just a 0; I wrote because I needed a nop there
20:45:43 <ais523> probably it should be (void)0; which is the canonical C nop
20:45:51 <AnMaster> ./cftoec.sh: line 13: realpath: command not found
20:45:53 <ais523> but that's to avoid code duplication in the header files
20:46:00 <ais523> oh dear, I tend to rely on realpath a lot
20:46:10 <ais523> to prevent problems with directory changes
20:46:20 <AnMaster> ais523, well arch linux doesn't have it by default it seems
20:46:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think it's default anywhere unfortunately, Ubuntu doesn't have it by default either
20:46:40 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe stop using it :)
20:46:40 <ais523> probably it shouldn't have been in C-INTERCAL then, I just get into the habit of using it..
20:46:58 <ais523> AnMaster: it should work if you change it to echo as long as you give an absolute path
20:47:11 <AnMaster> why the heck does it need absolute path?
20:47:30 <ais523> AnMaster: so the path doesn't get lost when you change directory
20:47:37 <ais523> it doesn't need an absolute path normally, that's what the realpath is for
20:47:45 <ais523> to make the path absolute if a relative path was given
20:48:05 <ais523> it makes a lot more sense than erroring out just because you were given a relative path, like configure does
20:48:43 <ais523> I'll find some way around it
20:48:53 <ais523> it's just that I'm so used to realpath I forgot that systems didn't have it by default
20:49:00 <AnMaster> ais523, you didn't update for the FUNGEDATATYPE -> fungeCell change it seems?
20:49:06 <AnMaster> even though I told you some time ago
20:49:16 <ais523> AnMaster: not yet, no, I haven't been working on C-INTERCAL recently
20:49:30 <ais523> mostly I've either been asleep or working on gcc-bf
20:49:35 <ais523> it will be fixed before the next release
20:49:47 <AnMaster> ais523, also why does it ignore $CC
20:50:08 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge compiles just fine with ICC
20:50:09 <ais523> because I wrote it in about 5 minutes in a hurry
20:50:51 <AnMaster> anyway ICC give a lot more readable errors
20:51:37 <AnMaster> clang is the new C/C++ frontend written from scratch being coded for LLVM
20:51:53 <AnMaster> modular, better error tracking than gcc while using less memory
20:52:20 <AnMaster> it can handle some C but almost no C++
20:52:46 <ais523> interesting, I know a lot about gcc from working on it for a week or so, and its design seems to be mostly about the genericness of frontend and backend, and the ability to do crazy optimisations easily
20:53:00 <ais523> it's not so good at error detection except when an optimisation discovers something's gone wrong, though
20:54:25 <ais523> competition in C compilers is good
20:54:31 <ais523> I don't want GCC getting too big for their boots
20:56:14 <AnMaster> /tmp/syslibc.c(192): remark #128: loop is not reachable from preceding code
20:56:15 <AnMaster> do { if(0) { ick_l2_65556 : ; if(ick_global_linelabel != (1001) || (1001) > 65535) goto ick_l2_65557 ; ick_global_checkmode = 0; } 0 ; ick_checksuckpoint(1001); } while(0);
20:56:46 <ais523> AnMaster: do while 0 is an idiom
20:56:46 <AnMaster> and still, why do you have those "expression has no effect"
20:56:52 <ais523> and shouldn't be treated as a loop at all
20:57:12 <AnMaster> ais523, why a do { } while at all?
20:57:21 <ais523> AnMaster: because that statement was created by filling out a template (reasonably obviously, given its appearance), and there was a blank which I didn't need to put a command in so I put a 0 in instead
20:57:29 <ais523> AnMaster: macro expansion, it makes a block act like a statement
20:57:46 <ais523> so you can do if(1) macro(args); else something_else();
20:57:55 <ais523> and it compiles correctly
20:58:11 <ais523> do { } while(0) is a common trick because it's a single statement if you put ; at the end
20:58:21 <ais523> whereas a block isn't, once you add the semicolon it's two statements
20:58:25 <AnMaster> /tmp/syslibc.c(197): remark #111: statement is unreachable
20:58:25 <AnMaster> if(ick_local_checkmode) ick_doresume((1),-1); ick_l1_65538 : ; ick_l6_65538 : ; ick_l2_65557 : return; }
20:58:47 <ais523> yes, that's the very end of the function, and that function isn't allowed to return as it's only called from INTERCAL, not from C
20:58:59 <ais523> functions can be called either via INTERCAL or via C mechanisms
20:59:09 <ais523> if called via INTERCAL mechanisms they must return via INTERCAL mechanisms
20:59:16 <ais523> whereas that's the code for returning via the C mechanism
20:59:27 <ais523> which is never used in this case
21:00:53 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/uTeEIr64.html
21:00:57 <AnMaster> ais523, any false positive there?
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21:01:24 <AnMaster> "external declaration in primary source file" and "external function definition with no prior declaration" are not false positives to me
21:01:59 <AnMaster> rot13.c(579): warning #2132: statement expressions are a GNU extension
21:01:59 <AnMaster> if(0) { ick_l1_65538 : ; if(ick_global_linelabel == (10U) && (10U) <= 65535) if(({int i=0; if (!ick_abstained[86]) { i=1;};i;})) { if(ick_global_goto) ick_lose("555 FLOW DIAGRAM IS EXCESSIVELY CONNECTED\n ON THE WAY TO %d\n", ick_lineno, (char*)0); ick_global_goto = 65544 ; } goto ick_l1_65539 ; ick_l2_65557 : ; if(ick_global_linelabel != 65544 ) goto ick_l2_65558
21:01:59 <AnMaster> ; ick_global_checkmode = 0; };
21:02:05 <ais523> the one on 31's genuine and fixable, the one on 44 reminds me why I needed gcc
21:02:20 <ais523> that one's very genuine, and may take some thought to fix
21:02:32 <ais523> it would be nice to find a different way and so get rid of the gcc dependency
21:02:51 <AnMaster> ais523, hope you can skip using GCC specific ones :)
21:02:56 <AnMaster> even though icc can handle those
21:02:56 <ais523> maybe move all the statement expressions to generated functions, not sure if that would work due to the need to access local variables
21:03:10 <ais523> ({ }) is kind-of hard to substitute into standard C
21:03:11 <AnMaster> ais523, now to try to compile main ick with these flags
21:03:17 <ais523> maybe I'll ask comp.lang.c if they have any ideas
21:03:29 <ais523> nested functions would work except they're a GNU extension too
21:03:37 <AnMaster> ais523, pass local variables along?
21:03:53 <ais523> AnMaster: hard to tell what the local variables are
21:04:03 <ais523> because they could be in user-supplied C code
21:06:28 <AnMaster> icc: command line remark #10148: option '-W' not supported
21:06:35 <AnMaster> you should probably check in configure
21:07:01 <ais523> yes, although last I checked configure didn't have an option to check "option to turn on all warnings"
21:07:10 <ais523> kind of hard to see how it could manage that really
21:07:29 <tusho> YOUR UNWASHED MASSES?
21:07:31 <tusho> NOT APPRECIATED!! BAD
21:07:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I may have a m4 macro to check if an option is supported
21:08:08 <AnMaster> by checking if there was any output
21:08:23 <ais523> AnMaster: but sometimes supported options generate output, sometimes unsupported options do
21:08:27 <AnMaster> actually it checked if it was GCC first, then checked using -Werror to see if it was supported
21:08:42 <ais523> as a facetious example, how can you tell if --version works or not?
21:09:01 <AnMaster> src/ick_ec.c(222): warning #1011: missing return statement at end of non-void function "ick_getonespot"
21:09:07 <AnMaster> src/ick_ec.c(252): warning #1011: missing return statement at end of non-void function "ick_gettwospot"
21:09:26 <ais523> oh dear, that looks bad, let me look at the source
21:09:36 <AnMaster> ais523, full compile log: http://rafb.net/p/6uCztn52.html
21:09:59 <tusho> stop talking to yourself
21:10:00 <AnMaster> src/cesspool.c(919): warning #1011: missing return statement at end of non-void function "ick_ieg277"
21:10:03 <tusho> or, more nonsense from me
21:10:13 <AnMaster> tusho, you could try unignoring me
21:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: that one's fine, the statement before errors out and doesn't return
21:10:28 <ais523> maybe I should start messing about with __attribute__((__noreturn__))
21:10:31 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway see http://rafb.net/p/6uCztn52.html
21:10:38 <AnMaster> ais523, well ICC doesn't support that one
21:10:42 <ais523> I do for Splint as it accepts annotations in comments
21:10:57 <ais523> which therefore don't interfere with anything else
21:11:03 <AnMaster> and I only use it on functions that GCC suggests using noreturn for
21:11:25 <AnMaster> it didn't have any false positives or negatives here
21:11:29 <ais523> oh, I use noreturn on functions which actually don't return
21:11:48 <AnMaster> src/clc-cset.c(262): warning #187: use of "=" where "==" may have been intended
21:12:09 <AnMaster> on the other hand it isn't very C-ish
21:12:10 <ais523> AnMaster: it's just not used to Perl, that's all
21:12:18 <ais523> clc-cset.c is full of Perl idioms as a homage to CLC-INTERCAL
21:12:24 <ais523> they tend to require a lot more parens to work in C, though
21:12:24 <AnMaster> src/lexer.l(307): (col. 13) remark: REVERSED LOOP WAS VECTORIZED.
21:12:37 <AnMaster> REVERSE POLARITY WAS VECTORIZED
21:12:46 * oerjan read that as VAPORIZED
21:13:58 <ais523> AnMaster: that all looks fine, some cases where I should probably use ifdef rather than if, but apart from that no serious errors
21:14:27 <AnMaster> #if (MULTITHREAD != 0) || (YUKDEBUG != 0) || defined(ICK_EC)
21:14:33 <ais523> AnMaster: why do that when #ifdef exists, except in complicated cases where you want to test more than one thing in the if?
21:15:01 <AnMaster> #if defined(MULTITHREAD) || defined(YUKDEBUG) || defined(ICK_EC)
21:15:08 <AnMaster> or should there be ! in front?
21:15:08 <ais523> AnMaster: no, because it might be defined to 0
21:15:21 <ais523> I want to test that it's defined and with a non-zero value
21:15:26 <AnMaster> ais523, but ICK_EC won't be that?
21:15:31 <ais523> #define MULTITHREAD 0 exists in several cases
21:15:37 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's right
21:15:50 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe time to update the ot same scheme
21:16:19 <AnMaster> sed 's/#define MULTITHREAD 0/#undef MULTITHREAD/'
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21:16:52 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's right
21:16:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, maybe time to update the ot same scheme
21:16:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> would make it easier to read
21:16:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> sed 's/#define MULTITHREAD 0/#undef MULTITHREAD/'
21:16:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> or something like that
21:17:07 <AnMaster> ais523, take your laptop with you next time!
21:17:10 <ais523> AnMaster: the problem is that the MULTITHREAD and the 0 are occasionally kept in different source files
21:17:14 <ais523> and my laptop's with me
21:17:18 <ais523> I just forgot to bring its power supply
21:17:24 <ais523> actually I might move onto my laptop now
21:17:30 <AnMaster> ais523, oh wait icc can auto-parallellise programs
21:17:33 <ais523> as the battery's charged and won't run out before I'm thrown out of here
21:17:53 <ais523> AnMaster: well if it doesn't misoptimise correct code there's no problem
21:18:24 <ais523> I haven't done anything weird-control-like that isn't allowed by the C standard
21:18:35 <ais523> I've just made a lot more interesting use of setjmp and friends than is normally considered sane
21:20:15 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway there is no need for -W these days
21:20:26 <AnMaster> use -Wextra if you have too, after checking it is GCC
21:20:27 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a synonym for -Wextra, so there is
21:21:01 <ais523> and as I said earlier, parts of C-INTERCAL were ported from pre-C89 C, so you can understand that it has trouble catching up
21:21:15 <AnMaster> lex.yy.c(2254): (col. 2) remark: LOOP WAS VECTORIZED.
21:21:15 <AnMaster> /tmp/ipo_icc1tzGiK.o: In function `main':
21:21:15 <AnMaster> /tmp/ipo_icc1tzGiK.c:(.text+0x30): undefined reference to `__kmpc_begin'
21:21:15 <AnMaster> /tmp/ipo_icc1tzGiK.c:(.text+0x3a): undefined reference to `__kmpc_global_thread_num'
21:21:15 <AnMaster> /tmp/ipo_icc1tzGiK.c:(.text+0x24ab): undefined reference to `__kmpc_end'
21:21:37 <AnMaster> had no problems with cfunge with that option
21:21:43 <ais523> AnMaster: mibbit changed parts of those error messages to sad faces
21:21:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well that sucks for you
21:22:31 <AnMaster> it should work with them combined
21:22:39 <ais523> I'm going to leave this computer and go onto my laptop now
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21:24:46 <tusho> i should probably unignore AnMaster
21:24:49 <tusho> or i'll forget tomorrow
21:24:51 <AnMaster> ais: for log reading -parallel will make it multithreaded in ICC
21:24:53 <tusho> wait, that's a good thing. possibly
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21:28:53 <AnMaster> icc -O2 -W -Wall -parallel -Wall -Wcheck -wd810 -wd981 -no-gcc -xK -march=pentium3 -O3 -ipo -static -no-prec-div -diag-enable port-win -DICKINCLUDEDIR=\"/home/anmaster/local/ick/include/ick-0.29\" -DICKDATADIR=\"/home/anmaster/local/ick/share/ick-0.29\" -DICKBINDIR=\"/home/anmaster/local/ick/bin\" -DICKLIBDIR=\"/home/anmaster/local/ick/lib\" -DYYDEBUG -DICK_HAVE_STDINT_H=1 -I./src -I./temp -o temp/oil
21:29:00 <AnMaster> icc temp/perpet.o temp/parser.o temp/lexer.o temp/feh2.o temp/dekludge.o temp/oilout*.o temp/ick_lose.o temp/fiddle.o temp/uncommon.o -o bin/ick
21:29:07 <AnMaster> /tmp/ipo_iccY7jGt7.o: In function `main':
21:29:08 <AnMaster> /tmp/ipo_iccY7jGt7.c:(.text+0x30): undefined reference to `__kmpc_begin'
21:29:08 <AnMaster> /tmp/ipo_iccY7jGt7.c:(.text+0x3a): undefined reference to `__kmpc_global_thread_num'
21:29:08 <AnMaster> /tmp/ipo_iccY7jGt7.c:(.text+0x24a9): undefined reference to `__kmpc_end'
21:29:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you probably need -static on the link too
21:29:29 <AnMaster> you forgot to pass it in $CFLAGS
21:29:37 <AnMaster> you forgot to pass CFLAGS there
21:29:42 <AnMaster> unlike the other time you link
21:29:48 <ais523> that's because you pass $LDFLAGS when linking
21:30:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well all cases I seen it uses CFLAGS too when linking
21:30:47 <AnMaster> ais523, and you *do* pass that when compiling old
21:30:59 <ais523> $CFLAGS is for the compile normally
21:31:02 <AnMaster> so passing it in LDFLAGS as well would be double
21:31:07 <ais523> maybe I should do it so $CC is used for compile and $LD for link, and they're both the detected C compiler by default
21:31:10 <ais523> do I compile and link oil in one step?
21:32:38 <ais523> ok, looks like I have to work even more on the build system
21:32:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais: for log reading -parallel will make it multithreaded in ICC
21:33:09 <ais523> anyway I'm not sure -parallel will help all that much
21:33:15 <AnMaster> I think it basically does mapreduce()
21:33:25 <ais523> probably feh2.c could be redesigned so it would but atm it won't
21:33:52 <ais523> besides ick runs very fast compared to gcc, so normally it doesn't matter about optimising ick itself
21:34:11 <AnMaster> ais523, but would it break it's programs to be compiled with -parallel?
21:34:37 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't see how it could, I'm not doing anything disallowed by the C standard so unless it's listed as unsafe in the compiler docs it should be fine
21:34:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you said pthreads would break stuff?
21:35:20 <AnMaster> src/perpet.c(664): remark #1599: declaration hides variable "c" (declared at line 285)
21:35:22 <ais523> AnMaster: only if calls and returns don't match up
21:35:38 <ais523> AnMaster: that's why it's in a separate block, scoping exists for a reason
21:36:05 <AnMaster> just gcc will warn with -Wshadow for that too
21:36:20 <AnMaster> src/clc-cset.c(303): remark #593: variable "ssrecord" was set but never used
21:36:20 <AnMaster> int sstesting, ssbestsf, ssrecord, j, k;
21:36:40 <ais523> AnMaster: when I need a temporary variable I create a small block so that shadowing will prevent an identifier clash
21:36:54 <ais523> AnMaster: I can't even remember what ssrecord does offhand
21:36:57 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/cIjSdJ39.html is the last log from main ick compile using icc
21:45:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | function g() is a big hint.
21:48:10 <tusho> will you talk to something other than silence now
21:48:21 <ais523> tusho: it depends on whether you say something interesting
21:48:32 <tusho> something interesting
21:48:34 <ais523> verifying that C-INTERCAL ports to compilers other than gcc is interesting
21:48:44 <ais523> and that's what I was doing, if you were wondering
21:49:12 <tusho> ais523: does it compile on my brain
21:49:22 <ais523> tusho: I don't know, it doesn't really compile in mine
21:49:31 <ais523> it's a bit too large to grasp all at once
21:49:33 <tusho> It sits at "DISPATCHED"!
21:49:44 <tusho> ais523: my brain is pretty damn awesome
21:49:46 <tusho> i think i could handle it
21:49:53 <ais523> well, you know where the code is
21:49:55 <tusho> if I augmented it with a large pen and paper extension
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21:59:25 <oerjan> i don't think there are any bitches here. there is one dogface though.
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22:40:11 <calamari> old news, but new to me... programmable wristwatch with a battery that lasts 2 years.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Datalink
22:40:39 <ais523> I don't think I've seen you here recently...
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00:00:52 <tusho> agora are trying to exile you because you're a shite speaker
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03:27:55 <psygnisfive> oklofok, have i mentioned recently how hot you are?
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03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | fizzie pulls out his marijuana - "And this helped too".
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08:46:25 <fizzie> I have no recollection of the context the current topic has.
08:48:06 <fizzie> Apparently I woke up at 16:00 one Friday, and the topic was GregorR's speculation on the reason.
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09:26:27 <fizzie> fungot: How should I improve you next?
09:26:28 <fungot> fizzie: see this: slashdot.org/ comments.pl?sid=99801&cid=8509203 linux. or at least a few people are making silly things for linux
09:29:17 <fizzie> fungot: Uh... I don't quite get it. You already have a command line interface of sorts, and are running on Linux; and I'm not going to expose that stuff directly to people on the channel, nope.
09:29:18 <fungot> fizzie: but kelsey still has it. basically you get bloat at runtime instead of compiletime function an ok way to describe it. ( plt scheme actually has such a mechanism often named thus. all syntax-rules implementations based on this single statement of yours? :)
09:29:52 <fizzie> optbot: You're usually more coherent; do you have any good ideas?
09:30:02 <optbot> fizzie: !undaemon ctcp
09:30:27 <fizzie> optbot: fungot doesn't have any "ctcp" command, and I don't quite see the point.
09:30:27 <optbot> fizzie: things like online javadocs, tutorial sites and w3schools have saved me hundreds of dollars in books
09:30:28 <fungot> fizzie: according to our consensus, for " 3" does not mean that all rings should have a locale with an encoding that will be
09:31:00 <fizzie> Those things aren't very useful for serious advice. :/
09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lisp is nice too.
09:50:34 <fizzie> optbot: Isn't it traditionally "a cat" which is fine too, not lisp?
09:50:34 <optbot> fizzie: A recursive array.
09:50:46 <fizzie> A recursive array is fine too. Hmm, right.
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12:26:57 <ais523> I still haven't gone to bed yet
12:27:12 <ais523> I can't sleep for an entire night...
12:27:30 <tusho> i can, mostly because i stay up late.
12:27:54 <tusho> although things have been working out to about 8 hours of sleep recently
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12:29:25 <tusho> jksdfhisdfhsdkjfhkdjsfksdjf fuck reddit comments
12:29:29 <tusho> "[citation needed]!! HAHA! Xkcd!"
12:29:37 <tusho> what the fuck happened to DOING YOUR OWN RESEARCH
12:30:15 <Deewiant> tusho: to be fair, if you make an assertion, you should back it up
12:30:23 <tusho> Deewiant: of course
12:30:31 <tusho> but it's done when the poster has made a negative assertation
12:30:47 <tusho> "Hey, I bet this steals your passwords and eats your babies." "Um... no it doesn't?" "[CITATION NEEDED BITCH]"
12:31:05 <tusho> you're the one who made the statement, give ME the evidence
12:31:12 <ais523> hmm... there are burden of proof problems right there
12:31:42 <Deewiant> just post the source and they'll shut up :-P
12:31:56 <tusho> Deewiant: "but you could be running a modified version with extra evil"
12:32:04 <tusho> (seriously, I am 100% certain they would say that)
12:32:26 <ais523> #ifdef LICENCE_MANAGER
12:32:44 <ais523> (a line from pic30, a modified version of gcc with extra evil)
12:33:00 <tusho> Deewiant: but I see it all over reddit
12:33:02 <tusho> it's just annoying
12:33:07 <ais523> sorry, it's called MPLAB C30, pic30 is what gcc thinks of it as internally
12:33:13 <tusho> you can say whatever you want and if people challenge you you can just say [citation needed].
12:33:17 <tusho> bullshiiiiiiiiiiit
12:33:21 <ais523> tusho: citation needed
12:33:29 <tusho> ais523: [citation needed]
12:33:38 <Deewiant> tusho: ( ais523) tusho: citation needed
12:33:51 <tusho> ("that's evil" "i don't think it is..." "[citation needed]")
12:33:53 <ais523> tusho: you may laugh, but people actually use {{disputedtag}} on occasion
12:33:58 <tusho> (can be reduced to "that's evil" "[citation needed]" "[citation needed]")
12:34:01 <ais523> there have been edit wars over it too
12:34:10 <tusho> however, the ones who say [citation needed] are never the ones who understand burden of proof
12:34:13 <ais523> which means that there's a dispute over whether something is disputed or not
12:34:43 <ais523> tusho: there can be edit wars over the strangest things on wikis, Wikipedia gets them a lot but I think they affect other wikis too
12:35:01 <ais523> for instance there was an edit war about whether a particular truck in the background of an area in Pokemon was notable or not
12:35:09 <tusho> ais523: kind of related: people bugged me on WikiWikiWeb for not using my real name
12:35:15 <tusho> because apparently using my real name makes me more trustworthy.
12:35:19 <tusho> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuSho
12:35:44 <ais523> tusho: it's not exactly that, it's that people who aren't trustworthy tend to be unwilling to reveal their own names for some reason
12:35:50 <ais523> so it works as a filter one way but not the other
12:35:57 <ais523> you exclude lots of people who are trustworthy too
12:36:10 <tusho> ais523: actually, when I was young and naive I'd have a good reason not to reveal my name
12:36:13 <tusho> my password was "elliott"...
12:36:53 <ais523> tusho: anyway, where's the history link on c2?
12:37:00 <ais523> as it is, it's very difficult to tell who's talking to you
12:37:11 <ais523> arguably it doesn't matter, but that goes against the thrust of what they were saying
12:38:43 <ais523> heh, c2 doesn't record contributors to a page forever, only for a certain length of time
12:38:55 <ais523> so it's simultaneously anonymous and requires real names
12:38:59 <ais523> that's an interesting compromise
12:39:37 <ais523> <spam I just got> Plastic SCM is saying goodbye to stuffy old software configuration management tools that are high on complexity and low on usability. With Plastic SCM every aspect of what you would expect from a configuration management tool has been enhanced. Trace the history of your projects with a number of graphical tools such as the per-file history that you can view through a 3D revision tree! How cool is that?!
12:39:48 <ais523> and it's more ontopic than the normal spam I come across
12:39:56 <ais523> doesn't make me want to buy their product though
12:41:12 <tusho> ais523: yes, that's intentional
12:41:19 <tusho> plastic scm is quite popular
12:41:22 <tusho> are you sure it's spam?
12:41:35 <tusho> i haven't heard of well-known companies spamming a lot, reall
12:41:35 <ais523> well, it's unsolicited bulk email
12:41:51 <ais523> Subject: ?spam? Our Version Control tool is not just cool looking, its smart too! Is yours?
12:42:03 <ais523> maybe someone else is spamming them
12:42:08 <ais523> but there's no obvious reason why
12:42:14 <ais523> it doesn't look like the work of a reputable company
12:42:29 <ais523> maybe a phishing attempt disguised as spam?
12:42:32 <ais523> that would be something new
12:42:43 <tusho> ais523: you can find all the revisions in the wiki data dir
12:42:49 <tusho> i can't remember where that is , though
12:42:52 <tusho> and again they get expired
12:43:00 <tusho> http://c2.com/cgi/quickDiff?TuSho
12:43:05 <tusho> (found by clicking the link) shows the last change
12:43:14 <tusho> it has no accounts, anyway
12:43:17 <tusho> so it's all honour system
12:43:50 <ais523> there is something very odd about that, but it resonated with me as being Wiki too
12:43:58 <ais523> which makes sense, as c2 is the Wiki with a capital W
12:44:15 <tusho> ais523: c2 is bizarre
12:44:21 <tusho> wikimedia is such a distant relative
12:44:26 <tusho> e.g. their Recentchanges is updated by a bot
12:44:29 <tusho> once every 24 hours
12:44:34 <tusho> just a regular pge
12:44:52 <ais523> yes, but even so I think I understand c2 in a way, pretty much any wiki model you'll have a faction of people on Wikipedia who thinks Wikipedia ought to work like that
12:45:14 <ais523> and you get used to the politics after a bit, c2 is a bit like Wikipedia would be with a different political party in charge
12:45:28 <tusho> ais523: it's kind of like america, isn't
12:45:31 <tusho> both the parties suck
12:45:36 <tusho> but one is mildly preferable :P
12:45:48 <ais523> tusho: which one depends on who you are, though
12:46:06 <tusho> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ChangesInWeekThirtyThree 33rd week of 2007 ... listing changes from 2008
12:46:11 <tusho> ais523: yea, i guess insane people differ ;)
12:46:27 <tusho> wonder how c2 would do citation needed.
12:46:32 <tusho> probably add a long italic comment below it.
12:46:54 <ais523> tusho: when I've worked on effective internal wikis they've ended up looking a lot like c2
12:47:04 <ais523> they normally act like extended group mind-maps, with hyperlinks
12:47:11 <tusho> which is a good thing
12:47:21 <tusho> although it's funny, wikis are actually a good replacement for most html sites
12:47:31 <ais523> Wikipedia is pretty strange as wikis go, it's sort of like using Google Docs to write an encyclopedia with a wiki attached for discussing it
12:48:59 <ais523> hmm... wiki software is strangely abusable too
12:49:13 <ais523> for instance I wrote a JavaScript multiplayer networked chess program
12:49:18 <ais523> using MediaWiki for data storage
12:49:52 <tusho> ais523: one problem I think mediawiki has
12:50:00 <tusho> is that was designed for 'everyone edits, better make it safe' first
12:50:18 <tusho> i think if you started with something made for a personal site-wiki-thingy that are quite popular these days - i.e. free for all, locked down permissions
12:50:25 <tusho> then put the restrictions etc on top of that
12:50:32 <tusho> it might result in something more flexible & less adhoc
12:50:50 <ais523> for wikis, adhoc is good
12:51:21 <tusho> but not in the part of the software meant to be structured, ais523
12:51:24 <tusho> i'm talking about the software
12:51:57 <tusho> e.g. for a personal wiki, you'd want something that you could poke about in standard tools for some purposes
12:52:05 <ais523> sort of like the monks from HHGTTG, but instead of demanding rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty you're demanding a rigidly structured framework in which to be adhoc
12:52:09 <tusho> so you store stuff in the filename (not much relational about well, documents anyway)
12:52:26 <tusho> and use an existing VCS, etc
12:52:27 <ais523> tusho: yes, very INTERCAL
12:52:30 <tusho> and probably a DVCS so you could edit locally
12:52:37 <tusho> and then, wow, hey, you get merging
12:52:42 <tusho> which turns out to be helpful in a more open, public site!
12:52:44 <tusho> see, benefits like that
12:52:49 <ais523> btw were you reading what I said when I told you about my new evil idea for command line argument syntax?
12:53:12 <ais523> sorry, I like telling people about that sort of random evil
12:53:23 <ais523> I haven't implemented most of the random evil ideas I've come up with yet, though
12:53:52 <tusho> ais523: incidentally,
12:54:01 <tusho> http://developer.mozilla.org/En doesn't run on mediawiki, although it really looks like it at first glance
12:54:11 <tusho> "Powered by MindTouch Deki Enterprise Edition v.8.05.2b"
12:54:28 <tusho> http://developer.mozilla.org/index.php?title=En&action=history <-- The goddamn URL is even the same. The UI for the history is better, though.
12:56:21 <tusho> http://developer.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Special:Listusers&limit=50&offset=50
12:56:26 <tusho> that is the EXACT URI that mediawiki uses
12:56:33 <tusho> it doesn't look like it's based on MW, though
12:56:42 <ais523> tusho: the UI for the history is the same, but skinned differently
12:56:55 <tusho> ais523: but the other pages look different
12:56:59 <ais523> the confusing thing is it's using the same URIs as MediaWiki everywhere
12:57:02 <tusho> i think they just imitated mediawiki
12:57:10 <ais523> but doesn't have any of the other hallmarks of MediaWiki
12:57:17 <tusho> http://developer.mozilla.org/Project:en/About
12:57:23 <tusho> lots of language stuff in the url
12:57:27 <tusho> i am pretty sure it's not based on MW, anyway
12:57:32 <tusho> i guess they just imitated the UI they likec
12:59:22 <ais523> well it's open source, so I'm going to settle this the traditional open source way
13:00:18 <tusho> they only provide distro packages
13:00:20 <tusho> and a vmware thing
13:00:55 <tusho> ais523: http://wiki.developer.mindtouch.com/Deki_Wiki/Installation_and_Upgrade/1.9.0_Itasca_Source_Code_Install_and_Upgrade_Guide
13:01:02 <tusho> ok, THAT is obviously not mediawiki
13:01:13 <tusho> guess mozilla just made it looks like MW
13:02:37 <tusho> ais523: can you slap me, I'm about to go off writing a wiki engine
13:02:47 <ais523> tusho: no, slaps tend not to work over IRC
13:02:50 <ais523> at least not very well
13:02:54 <tusho> ais523: how about a Swhack
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13:05:18 <ais523> Deki Wiki looks worrying, anyway, it's full of dependencies on Windows and/or Mono
13:05:27 <ais523> "Adding services, like Microsoft Windows Live Controls, as a built-in component
13:05:27 <ais523> to a wiki is super interesting; MindTouch Deki Wiki is truly breaking new ground,"
13:05:27 <ais523> said George Moore, general manager, Windows Live Platform at Microsoft.
13:05:31 <ais523> that's from their README
13:05:39 <tusho> ais523: well, that's what microsoft want to do with it
13:05:44 <tusho> ais523: if you read their installation instructions, they're for mono
13:05:49 <tusho> nothing wrong with mono/C#
13:05:52 <tusho> nice VM, nice language
13:05:54 <ais523> well they have mono as a dependency
13:06:13 <ais523> and lots of people are paranoid about mono because they think installing it allows Microsoft to sue you some time down the line
13:06:13 <tusho> ais523: gnome depends on Mono these days
13:06:17 <tusho> http://www.gnome.org/projects/tomboy/
13:06:25 <tusho> a gnome/C# app that runs on Mono
13:06:29 <tusho> i don't think it'd even run on windows
13:06:33 <ais523> tusho: no it doesn't, the person in charge wants it to but there are no Mono dependencies in Gnome core nowadays
13:06:42 <tusho> ok, well ubuntu includes t
13:07:02 <ais523> apparently there are two programs in Ubuntu by default that depend on it
13:07:28 <ais523> also someone put in a dependency for OpenOffice.org on Mono but there isn't a dependency there actually and after removing the dependency it still works
13:07:41 <tusho> what gui toolkit does openoffice use again?
13:07:47 <tusho> it's some crazy shit that looks like java but isn't
13:08:26 <ais523> and arguably any GUI made by Sun ends up looking like Java, because it's the same GUI designers
13:09:08 <tusho> they should fire 'em
13:11:56 -!- tusho has changed nick to mupersan.
13:12:04 -!- mupersan has changed nick to tusho.
13:12:25 -!- tusho has changed nick to mupersan.
13:12:30 -!- mupersan has changed nick to tusho.
13:14:45 <tusho> Well, mupersan has been defeated.
13:14:55 <tusho> The name would trip me up if I didn't already have one.
13:15:23 <tusho> Hm. Now language choice will trip me up. Damn.
13:15:26 <ais523> tusho: the last few events here in #esoteric would look pretty weird to anyone who wasn't in the other channels that provide context
13:15:40 <ais523> oh, btw, hi optbot, hi fungot
13:15:41 <optbot> ais523: no it's not :(
13:15:41 <fungot> ais523: so include the code? :p) and all is well and good.' you can hang around in mystream. but when you pass your custom port to a procedure without naming it after " people who are used to
13:15:53 <fizzie> I, for one, am confused about what just happened.
13:16:26 <ais523> fizzie: I don't think it makes sense without having been in ##nomic at the same time
13:16:27 <fizzie> Especially with irssi's nick-tracking-for-query-windows, which added a "You are now talking with mupersan" line as the first line I noticed.
13:18:58 <ais523> fungot: provide some context for fizzie
13:19:05 <tusho> ais523: do you think I should give perl another chance for this?
13:19:19 <ais523> tusho: actually I'd rather like to see it in INTERCAL
13:19:26 <tusho> ais523: you can port it ;)
13:19:27 <ais523> but that would be really difficult
13:19:31 <fizzie> Wow, been a while since the last crash.
13:19:33 <tusho> i'm not insane enough
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13:19:48 <ais523> maybe I should make an INTERCAL backend for gcc, not sure if it would be easier or harder than brainfuck
13:20:01 <ais523> worryingly many of INTERCAL's commands are not too hard to explain to gcc
13:20:07 <fizzie> It saw that ais523 "provide some context" line and got confused.
13:20:13 <ais523> it can understand what ABSTAIN does to some extent, for instance
13:20:24 <ais523> but it tends to assume things that aren't true
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13:20:48 <fizzie> fungot: Feeling better?
13:20:49 <fungot> fizzie: ( indirectly via fnord and my blue fnord long underwear all ready to go through all words in the stdlib
13:20:59 <fizzie> Sounds... fungotty enough.
13:21:00 <fungot> fizzie: guess i've not done any forth coding since... well, physically around me without specifying " good stewart" versus " xtu". ( advanced in his mind uses it.
13:21:56 <fungot> ais523: those are just the ordinary ( for call/ cc))) hangs
13:23:58 <tusho> ais523: is there any actual justification for a lot of perl's weirdness?
13:24:04 <tusho> I can see how some of it leads to interesting stuff
13:24:21 <ais523> Perl is designed to be ruthlessly pragmatic AFAICT
13:24:57 <tusho> but a lot of the pragmatism is just silly & afaict not very helpful either
13:30:53 <tusho> ais523: does perl have a Git module?
13:31:02 <tusho> ah. it's part of official git
13:37:28 <fizzie> For disturbingly many X, "does perl have a X" has a positive answer.
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13:42:00 <ais523> tusho: well in C you could import that with -lido, Perl naming conventions are a bit different though
13:42:18 <tusho> man someone make a protocol called ido already
13:43:13 <tusho> Hmm. I haven't bought any albums, recently, apart from this one.
13:43:19 * tusho Swhacks himself for being a naughty pirate.
13:43:23 * tusho denies that Swhack.
13:43:30 <tusho> (/me checks download status...)
13:44:10 -!- tritonio__ has joined.
13:44:44 <tusho> Why must there be throttles in the world.
13:44:45 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:45:12 <ais523> tusho: to prevent one person being able to slashdot the entire Internet with wget
13:45:40 <ais523> (there are ways to set its settings so it'll download every web page linked from any other webpage recursively forever, which will end up downloading much of the Internet, but this is a bad idea)
13:46:10 <tusho> ais523: Or rather so that the file dump sites can sucker you into being a premium account. (I'd use bittorrent except 1. if a friend uploads it I can be sure of the quality & correct tags 2. It's more reliable, in general, whereas torrents often end up with incomplete files etc)
13:50:53 <tusho> Woop woop. Downloaded.
13:51:09 <ais523> tusho: what did you download?
13:51:26 <tusho> Ugh, my fonts have messed up.
13:51:32 <tusho> Always seems to happen after catting /dev/urandom.
13:51:40 <ais523> tusho: use the reset command?
13:51:52 <ais523> that cleans up a random cat for me
13:51:55 <tusho> ais523: no I mean literally
13:52:00 <tusho> even if I restart the terminal
13:52:05 <tusho> it's something to do with os x font caches
13:52:09 <tusho> I imagine leopard fixes it
13:52:11 <ais523> that's pretty bad terminal design...
13:52:19 <tusho> ais523: it happens with any terminal
13:52:21 <tusho> I think its an os bug
13:52:24 <tusho> but it rarely happens
13:52:33 <tusho> mostly if you give it really wacky unicode over the course of several days
13:52:38 <ais523> how can the OS mess up the fonts just because you catted something to a terminal?
13:53:51 <ais523> oh, btw I found an explanation of SGML comments that actually made sense
13:54:12 <ais523> it seems that <! -- this is a comment -- > is fine in SGML (and therefore in early versions of HTML)
13:54:26 <ais523> because <! starts a declaration, > ends it, and -- toggles a comment inside a declaration
13:54:46 <tusho> ah, that's how it got the syntax
13:54:50 <ais523> that's why <!----> starts and ends a comment but <!------> ends up inside a comment
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13:58:41 <tusho> ugh, mouse out of battery again
13:58:50 <tusho> that does it, after this i'll put back in my crappy old wired mouse
13:59:02 <ais523> tusho: that's why I'm using a wired mouse at the moment too
13:59:10 <tusho> ais523: it didn't used to do this
13:59:14 <tusho> but it's been dropped a few times
13:59:16 <ais523> and this mouse is very crappy, I suspect it's made of cardboard but am not sure
13:59:25 <tusho> and I think that fucked it up
13:59:39 <tusho> (the batteries have a little checker thing on the side and they always have like a third)
13:59:45 <tusho> (and yet the mouse says they're dead)
14:00:40 <ais523> tusho: could be a loose connection causing resistance inside the mouse, the battery charge would appear lower to the mouse because less voltage and/or current would get through
14:00:40 <ais523> and I can see how dropping a mouse would cause a loose connection
14:00:55 <tusho> ais523: something over my head like that, yes
14:00:59 <tusho> it scratched the teflon base
14:01:08 <tusho> so now it's awkward to use on anything other than a fibrous mouse mat
14:01:11 <tusho> and it's slowed down a bit even on that
14:01:16 <tusho> so i had to turn accelleration up
14:02:38 <tusho> ais523: http://zeepmobile.com/ neat
14:02:52 <tusho> they use the last 40 chars of the message for ads though :(
14:03:30 <ais523> tusho: now all that's needed is someone interfaces it with Java, then we can plz send everyone the code
14:04:04 <ais523> sending SMS messages from Java was the original question that sparked off that particular meme
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14:12:36 <oklopol> i want like a spec, but i'm too lazy to ggl
14:12:48 <tusho> hear that GregorR? we're pinging you
14:12:53 <tusho> like this: GregorR
14:16:41 <ais523> tusho: the FSF have released a new propaganda video which I'm watching atm, it's good if you like unintentional humour
14:16:48 <tusho> ais523: by stephen fry?
14:16:55 <tusho> i'll watch that in a bit
14:16:58 <tusho> i like stephen fry a lot
14:17:28 <ais523> basically they've persuaded him to spout propaganda lines explaining what FSF-free software is in terms that a kindergarten could understand
14:17:34 <ais523> which is all very patronising
14:18:01 <tusho> ais523: i'm sure he had a lot of fun being patronising too
14:18:43 <ais523> the FSF are still desperately trying to promote gNewSense
14:18:55 <tusho> yea, i read the reddit comments to that video and saw gnewsense
14:18:58 <tusho> and i just laughed
14:19:09 <tusho> oh FSF, when will you learn about reality?
14:20:23 <tusho> ais523: could you check if rutian's apache is gzipping pages it sends?
14:20:25 <ais523> they released it cc-nd
14:20:32 <ais523> tusho: I think I can check
14:20:48 <ais523> tusho: the FSF think propaganda should be no-derivs
14:20:55 <tusho> ais523: yea, god forbid they get made fun of
14:20:57 <ais523> the Emacs manual ended up being declared non-free by Debian
14:21:05 <ais523> until they changed their mind about that
14:21:21 <tusho> ais523: i think I might remix stephen fry's video to make the FSF look even more ridiculous (after watching it) and host it out of spite
14:21:34 <tusho> and have at the bottom, two links
14:21:41 <tusho> fsf.org - "Support free software!"
14:21:45 <fizzie> Lots of GNU program documentation is in Debian non-free, thanks to GFDL.
14:21:47 <tusho> creativecommons.org - "Support free culture!"
14:22:07 <tusho> fizzie: Hm, so Wikipedia isn't debian-free?
14:22:28 <ais523> tusho: it depends on what options on the GFDL you select
14:22:31 <ais523> Wikipedia is debian-free
14:22:40 <fizzie> According to vrms, I've got non-free packages like: autoconf-doc, gdb-doc, gcc-doc-base, ocaml-doc.
14:22:40 <ais523> but the GFDL has all sort of optional extras you can add on
14:22:55 <ais523> for including propaganda into a document in a non-free way
14:23:06 <ais523> as long as it's unrelated to the subject of the document
14:23:07 <fizzie> Immutable sections were the thing I saw people griping about.
14:23:09 <tusho> i have non-free software such as ... um ... I don't think it'll fit on an IRC line :P
14:23:32 <fizzie> Yes, well, I just selected some of the "-doc" packages I had; there's others.
14:23:36 <ais523> in other words GFDL lets you add a section of propaganda to your documentation that nobody's allowed to remove, as long as it has nothing to do with the content people are actually looking for
14:24:25 <ais523> of course people who try to use the GFDL sanely, like me and whoever selected the licence for Wikipedia, disable all the optional extras and just end up with a licence that actually resembles the cc licences a bit
14:24:55 <tusho> i'd say something witty but I can't think of anything to make this funnier :)
14:25:44 <ais523> I think the problem is that the FSF don't really 'get' free software, despite having invented it
14:26:06 <tusho> ais523: my take on it is that the FSF are obsessed with making the general public all brainwashed to support everything they say
14:26:15 <tusho> so they add loads of terms to obligate the spreading of the propaganda
14:26:27 <tusho> (exaggerated, of course, but the basic idea)
14:26:40 <tusho> they'd be good virus writers
14:26:41 <ais523> tusho: bad news, it isn't gzipping, I would tell you in #ESO but you aren't there
14:26:49 <tusho> ais523: ah, so that's why it's not all that fast
14:34:38 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/dbkAv776.html
14:35:12 <ais523> AnMaster: those warnings aren't just in the compiler, they're in the C-INTERCAL manual too
14:35:22 <ais523> they're potential gotchas for people writing code to interface with INTERCAL code
14:35:47 <ais523> AnMaster: the manual warns that the variables won't be initialised and so don't rely on them being initialised
14:36:01 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, or goto into a block with initialised variables
14:36:13 <ais523> as in goto a; {int b; a: ; }
14:36:14 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you could have a bug there
14:36:28 <AnMaster> ais523, and this is not with EC stuff
14:37:05 <ais523> actually that's just a false positive
14:37:16 <ais523> because those variables go out of scope before they can be used
14:37:24 <ais523> the code for -m is more like goto a; {int b=2; } a: ;
14:37:29 <ais523> which is clearly not a problem
14:37:52 <ais523> it's kind-of obvious that's happening from the error because it's skipping a huge number of variables with the same name
14:37:57 <ais523> which don't shadow each other
14:38:03 <ais523> so they all go out of scope before there's a problem
14:40:38 * tusho downloads some more stuff
14:42:24 <tusho> 17 minutes remaining...
14:44:55 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p144322651.txt readable and/or Cish?
14:45:19 <tusho> oklopol: quite Cish
14:45:24 <ais523> oklopol: those bitfields will cause havoc on an 8-bit system
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14:45:34 <tusho> oklopol: use int argc, char **argv though
14:45:37 <tusho> instead of nargs,args
14:45:43 <ais523> they don't fit nicely on 8-bit boundaries
14:45:44 <tusho> but apart frmo that, it looks kind of like c from the 70s :P
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14:46:06 <oklopol> ais523: well then i'll just have to do the bitshifts manually.
14:46:21 <tusho> oklopol: do you care about 8 bit systems
14:46:21 <ais523> tusho: C from the 70s would be main()int argc;char** argv;{}
14:46:26 <tusho> ais523: well, you know what i mean
14:46:39 <oklopol> which basically means writing in python what the C compiler has for this exact case
14:46:57 <tusho> oklopol: just do what you're doing
14:47:05 <tusho> unless you wanna run it on a nes
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14:47:55 <oklofok> i've managed to break another cable
14:48:09 <oklofok> "as always, i want it to run on my own computer, everything else is just gravy." was my last message, not sure if you got it.
14:49:16 <ais523> oklopol: no, leave it as it is
14:49:16 <ais523> the compiler will sort it out for you
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14:49:51 <oklofok> i need the bitfields to have that exact structure, because i'm writing that raw into a file
14:50:13 <oklofok> sort out the shifting the data into the struct?
14:50:25 <ais523> oklofok: C doesn't guarantee any structure in bitfields
14:50:36 <ais523> for instance, what's the endianess of a 26-bit int?
14:50:41 <oklofok> well that sucks donkey ass
14:50:46 <ais523> it will vary from system to system
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14:51:03 <ais523> the bits are guaranteed to be in the order you say but there may be padding between them
14:51:28 <oklofok> so basically i have to shift everything manually into an int
14:51:31 <ais523> gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints
14:51:40 <ais523> manual shifting is safer, and easy
14:51:58 <oklofok> yeah, well, i'll stick with this one, and make a python program convert all that for me
14:52:11 <oklofok> not convert, shiftorize is the correct term
14:52:23 <tusho> oklofok: why not just use attribute packed
14:52:25 <tusho> it's probably the best
14:52:30 <tusho> after all, you only care about your system
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14:52:31 <oklofok> anyway i have some business to attend to, see you in a bit
14:52:37 <oklofok> tusho: well i kinda missed that line :P
14:52:44 <oklofok> yeah, that'll indeed be okay
14:53:02 <oklofok> i think i automatically skip lines that contain something as complicated as __attribute__
14:53:25 <oklofok> you will have to tell me how that's used later, when i actually start making this
14:53:45 <ais523> oklofok: it isn't standard C, gcc lets you do that sort of thing but some compilers don't or have different syntax
14:53:59 <oklofok> ais523: yeah that's fine by me, but how exactly is it used?
14:54:22 <oklofok> do i just write __attribute__((__packed__)) in my diary or something?
14:54:28 <ais523> you put the syntax after the } of the struct definition
14:54:30 <oklofok> or should it be written in the code somewhere
14:54:58 <oklofok> but, ima take a break from irc now, see you in a bit ->
14:58:04 <ais523> tusho: heh, newlib is formed by combining code licenced under 28 different BSD-style licences and the LGPL
14:58:18 <ais523> that's legal, but hardly good style
14:58:53 <ais523> it makes the copyright notice stupidly long
14:59:19 <tusho> ais523: idea for a copyright license
14:59:34 <tusho> for each derivative
14:59:39 <tusho> you have to add one word to a one word story included with the program
15:00:20 <ais523> tusho: I wanted to write an anti-copyleft licence which was still open-source; all derivative works had to add an extra condition to the licence, preferably a silly one which hardly ever comes up
15:00:35 <ais523> therefore derivative works can be non-open-source but the original is open source
15:00:55 <ais523> I don't think I'd use such a licence except for something silly though
15:01:04 <ais523> I mean, sillier than usual
15:01:22 <tusho> ais523: what about a licensenomic
15:01:32 <tusho> different derivatives could vote on license changes in their parents
15:01:36 <ais523> tusho: combining a nomic legal system with a RL legal system?
15:01:58 <ais523> that would get very dangerous very quickly, especially when it came to indemnification
15:02:16 <tusho> ais523: it'd probably have a huge legalese of limitations
15:02:18 <ais523> you might end up having to pay Apple the damages for being sued by Microsoft, for instance
15:02:30 <tusho> it'd only be for silly things anyway
15:22:52 <oklofok> hmm, is there an assembly that requires you to declare a register before you use it
15:23:16 <oklofok> you could have the speed benefit of not having to push everything @ call, but still have the safety
15:23:42 <ais523> oklofok: C written entirely with gcc asm statements
15:24:29 <ais523> that gives you the speed benefit
15:24:38 <ais523> it's just very verbose
15:24:47 <ais523> the whole thing collapses into just the asm when it's compiled
15:25:09 * ais523 recalls writing asm like that on a different compiler because they didn't know how to use the assembler
15:25:20 <oklofok> but, you don't have to specify the registers you use, and that's a bit boring
15:25:31 <oklofok> actually you do have to do that
15:25:51 <oklofok> you will have to elaborate on how a register is declared in C
15:26:16 <ais523> oklofok: again you can't do that in general, in gcc you can declare a variable to be in a particular register
15:26:18 <oklofok> can't you just write any assembly you like?
15:26:31 <ais523> and in gcc you have to specify the inputs and outputs to each asm statement you write
15:27:08 <oklofok> i should learn more about gcc, it seems to be incredibly awesome and great
15:27:35 <ais523> it's good for doing non-portable stuff, and most of the stuff you're asking about can't be done portably
15:29:13 <oklofok> i don't care about portability, i mainly wanted to know whether that idea has been investigated
15:29:38 <ais523> gcc's asm is awesome compared to asm in all the other non-gcc-based compilers I've used
15:29:48 <oklofok> well, i invented it for my stack-language->brainfuck compiler as well, it's not really an invention; guess that's why i specifically asked whether it exists
15:29:58 <ais523> most of the others required you to guess where everything went when mixing asm and C
15:30:02 <ais523> in the same source file
15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | print message.
15:46:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you are not allowed to use a printout?.
15:46:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Ah. Fine ;)..
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16:11:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints
16:11:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> manual shifting is safer, and easy
16:11:46 <ais523> AnMaster: what if you were on a system with 11-bit ints?
16:11:51 <ais523> not that they exist, but they could do in theory
16:12:22 <ais523> it would have to be 22-bit int, 33-bit or 44-bit long
16:12:30 <ais523> and long long would be 66 bits or more
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16:20:27 <AnMaster> <ais523> not that they exist, but they could do in theory <-- last I saw from anyone else
16:20:29 <AnMaster> I said several lines after that though
16:20:42 <ais523> [16:11] <AnMaster> <ais523> gcc lets you remove the padding with __attribute__((__packed__)) but I'm not sure if that'll work on non-32-bit systems, where your bitfields cross the boundaries between ints
16:20:42 <ais523> [16:11] <AnMaster> <ais523> manual shifting is safer, and easy
16:20:42 <ais523> [16:11] <AnMaster> well
16:20:42 <ais523> [16:11] <AnMaster> in erlang it would be easy
16:20:42 <ais523> [16:11] <AnMaster> very easy
16:21:15 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/yehiAb75.html
16:22:07 <ais523> _ means don't care in Prolog too
16:22:38 <AnMaster> well erlang doesn't do back tracking
16:24:01 <AnMaster> you would probably do it in two steps
16:24:29 <AnMaster> unless there was some easy way to see
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16:24:49 <AnMaster> for example, first bit set of Opcode means that it is a "Rinstr"
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16:25:30 <AnMaster> <<2#1:1,Opcode:5,Rs:5,Rt:5,Rd:5,Shamt:5,Funct:6>>
16:26:00 <AnMaster> I love Erlang pattern matching :)
16:26:34 <ais523> lots of langs have powerful pattern matching, unfortunately most of the really popular ones don't
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16:26:54 <AnMaster> I saw some code to detect if it was a MPEG frame. the function prototype was: decode_header(<<2#11111111111:11,B:2,C:2,_D:1,E:4,F:2,G:1,Bits:9>>)
16:27:45 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway how many got such powerful bit matching syntax?
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16:28:23 <AnMaster> it can also be used to construct, not just pattern match
16:28:34 <ais523> AnMaster: Prolog doesn't have bitwise variables but it can match arrays and tuples the same way as that, and likewise can construct the same way
16:28:53 <AnMaster> well erlang can do it for arrays and tuples too
16:29:37 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/C7qQoh24.html
16:30:10 <ais523> in Prolog the entire lang's pattern matching, pretty much
16:30:45 <AnMaster> well erlang doesn't use backtracking, doesn't really make sense for something "soft realtime" (which erlang is, not hard realtime though)
16:30:53 <ais523> I should really write more Prolog, it's a beautiful language but I haven't written more than simple test programs in it
16:31:36 <AnMaster> ais523, back tracking wouldn't be good for something performance critical
16:31:49 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on how deep it is
16:32:05 <ais523> you can write Prolog so that every predicate is deterministic, then all backtracking collapses into an if
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16:32:23 <AnMaster> ais523, does prolog have list comprehensions?
16:32:45 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what a list comprehension is, but I'm pretty sure from memory that it does
16:33:23 <AnMaster> say you want to multiply each number in the list by 2
16:33:38 <AnMaster> 2> lists:map(fun(X) -> 2*X end, L).
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16:33:48 <ais523> ah, that sort of thing's generally done using setof
16:33:59 <ais523> where the list comprehension is mixed into the syntax of the rest of the language
16:34:45 <ais523> doublemember(A,L) :- member(B,L), A is B*2;
16:34:51 <ais523> then you do setof(doublemember(A,L),A)
16:35:03 <ais523> that's almost exactly your list comprehension just with more verbose synta
16:35:42 <AnMaster> ais523, you can have several comma separated entries after the || there in erlang
16:35:44 <Deewiant> well, "list comprehension" generally means "that, but with less verbose syntax" :-)
16:36:03 <Deewiant> of course all list comprehensions can be rewritten in terms of combinators like map
16:36:09 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, a quick Wikipedia check shows that someone invented "Visual Prolog" which has a short syntax for a list comprehension
16:36:21 <AnMaster> 1> [ X || {a, X} <- [{a,1},{b,2},{c,3},{a,4},hello,"wow"]].
16:36:24 <ais523> Prolog tends to have consistent syntax rather than short syntax, though
16:36:31 <AnMaster> pattern matching everywhere! :)
16:36:46 <ais523> pretty much syntax can be deduced from the rules of the language
16:37:08 <ais523> ; , ! :- are pretty much the only control flow operators you need
16:37:13 <fizzie> List comprehensions have been all the rage after Python did them; they added those to Javascript, too. (In Mozilla, although it might be in a later ECMAScript version too.)
16:37:17 <ais523> and you don't need to write ; explicitly either
16:37:56 <AnMaster> ais523, um, erlang got if and case, but you can always use pattern matching instead
16:38:11 <AnMaster> however sometimes it is clearer with if and case
16:38:18 <AnMaster> than calling another function for it
16:38:22 <ais523> AnMaster: in Prolog it's always done with pattern matching
16:38:34 <AnMaster> ais523, sometimes the alternative is more readable
16:38:45 <ais523> it depends on if you're used to reading Prolog, I suppose
16:39:33 <tusho> max x y | x > y = x
16:39:38 <ais523> AnMaster: that looks like Prolog with a non-standard syntax
16:39:40 <tusho> max x y | x > y = x
16:39:46 <tusho> (just getting that in line :P)
16:39:59 <ais523> let me translate it into Prolog
16:40:01 <Deewiant> max x y = if x > y then x else y
16:40:19 <ais523> max(X,Y,R) :- X > Y, !, X=R
16:40:25 <AnMaster> well the "when" keyword in erlang is a guard
16:40:34 <AnMaster> can be used with pattern matching too
16:40:39 <ais523> hmm... that can be shortened
16:40:47 <ais523> max(X,Y,X) :- X > Y, !
16:41:04 <ais523> AnMaster: pattern matching
16:41:09 <ais523> it matches the argument to the function against the result
16:41:13 <AnMaster> ais523, it takes 3 parameters?
16:41:16 <ais523> there is no distinction in Prolog
16:41:24 <ais523> AnMaster: the return variable is always one of the arguments in Prolog
16:41:33 <ais523> things return values through their arguments
16:41:44 <ais523> apart from pass/fail Booleans
16:41:46 <AnMaster> ais523, so everything doesn't have a value in prolog?
16:41:54 <ais523> AnMaster: functions are only pass/fail
16:41:56 <tusho> AnMaster: prolog doesn't work like that
16:41:59 <ais523> well, not functions, predicates
16:42:02 <tusho> it's a totally different paradigm
16:42:16 <oklopol> "Most actual digital computers have only a finite store." <<< wonder what turing meant by this exactly
16:42:19 <ais523> they can put extra restrictions on their arguments as a side effect
16:42:21 <AnMaster> tusho, yes though ais523 seem to suggest it is close to erlang
16:42:27 <tusho> AnMaster: it's not
16:42:34 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I was suggesting it had similar pattern matching facilities
16:42:40 <ais523> Prolog is declarative, not functional
16:43:03 <AnMaster> ais523, well I read that erlang is classed as something in between declarative and functional
16:43:04 <Deewiant> well, functional is declarative to an extent
16:43:39 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, it can be, but it's not really crazy declarative like Prolog
16:43:40 <Deewiant> the difference is that prolog is logic programming
16:43:55 <ais523> Deewiant: apart from !
16:44:02 <ais523> the cut messes things up so beautifully
16:44:07 <ais523> although it's pretty hard to explain
16:44:36 <ais523> AnMaster: prevents backtracking backwards past the ! to earlier in the same predicate or an alternative to that predicate, backtracking has to go to a previous predicate instead
16:45:14 <AnMaster> ais523, does Prolog support files? sockets?
16:45:31 <ais523> probably the best way to explain to a C programmer is that the difference between no cut and cut is a bit like the difference between if(a){do_a();} if(b){do_b();} and if(a){do_a();} else if(b){do_b();}
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16:45:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'm an erlang programmer too :P
16:46:00 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure if that's in the standard library, the original implementation implemented files in a pretty quaint way with routines with silly names that tended not to be copied
16:46:07 <ais523> AnMaster: but I don't know erlang and I do know C
16:46:29 <ais523> to get the Prolog equivalence working properly, think of do_a() and do_b() as either doing nothing or not returning depending on whether they can do something
16:46:30 <AnMaster> ais523, concurrency in prolog?
16:46:51 <ais523> AnMaster: they wouldn't mix well, loops in Prolog work differently from in most other languages
16:46:59 <ais523> well, you can loop by recursion, which functional programmers are fine with
16:47:06 <AnMaster> yes erlang does loops that way
16:47:09 <ais523> and you can loop by backtracking which is just weird if you're not used to it
16:47:31 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you cause a backtrack to happen?
16:47:44 <ais523> AnMaster: any command failing, normally due to a lack of pattern match
16:48:00 <AnMaster> ais523, won't it give up at some point?
16:48:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you can look at http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/prolog.php for instance for prolog programs
16:48:07 <ais523> AnMaster: when it runs out of possibilities
16:48:08 <AnMaster> when it tried all possibilities
16:48:14 <AnMaster> ais523, so how could you loop then?
16:48:22 <ais523> AnMaster: repeat. repeat:-repeat.
16:48:41 <ais523> that translates roughly as "One way to repeat is to do nothing; another way is to repeat."
16:48:53 <ais523> which means that there are an infinite number of different ways to repeat, due to the recursion
16:49:01 <tusho> ais523: you're kind of breaking AnMaster's brain
16:49:13 <AnMaster> ais523, is this like tail recursion? or does it eat up stack space
16:49:23 <tusho> AnMaster: you;re thinking way too low level
16:49:26 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't eat up stack space, nor trail space
16:49:43 <ais523> it does have a problem with nowhere to save data though unless you use things like assert
16:49:58 <ais523> so normally you implement your own leaky version of repeat so you can leave the loop at both ends
16:50:09 <oklopol> now is the loopie actually done by writing stuff in the first repeat?
16:50:17 <AnMaster> tusho, a non-tail recursion would eat up call stack space, while a tail recursive one would basically be translated to a goto to the start of the function
16:50:18 <oklopol> so you don't just infloop nop
16:50:28 <tusho> AnMaster: that's low-level thinking
16:50:38 <ais523> oklopol: no, a sample infloop printing hello world would be goal:- repeat, print("Hello, world!"), fail.
16:50:38 <tusho> prolog is a Very High Level language, as they're called
16:50:44 <AnMaster> tusho, "what the implementation is doing" thinking yes
16:50:55 <tusho> AnMaster: it is when you're thinking about the language
16:51:06 <tusho> it's why a ton of things i try and explain to you go over your head
16:51:07 <ais523> tusho: I know the naive way to implement prolog, so I can think in terms of implementations too
16:51:17 <tusho> ais523: but he's not thinking naively
16:51:20 <ais523> there are less naive ways that run a lot faster though
16:51:23 <tusho> he's thinking about optimizations and stuff
16:51:28 <tusho> it's just not productive in this situation
16:51:46 <ais523> tusho: you need to read several mathematical papers which I haven't read to understand how Prolog optimisation works, apparently
16:52:00 <AnMaster> if you want to do an infinite loop, for example a thread dispatching messages
16:52:19 <tusho> god, now I remember why I ignored AnMaster
16:52:22 <AnMaster> as you will run out of memory after some 10000 loops or so
16:52:32 <AnMaster> now this is very erlang style of thinking actually
16:52:45 <AnMaster> because erlang is kind of a mix between high and low level functional language
16:52:55 <ais523> AnMaster: tail recursion or backtracking in Prolog to prevent running out of stack, a good implementation won't run out of trail in tail-recursion either unless you're doing something silly like building an infinitely-long list
16:52:59 <AnMaster> erlang supports so called "linked in drivers" to interact with native code
16:53:14 <AnMaster> for example someone made a "SDL and OpenGL" linked in driver
16:53:29 <AnMaster> a 3D modelling program written in erlang
16:53:58 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed, but *non* tail recursion...
16:54:30 <ais523> AnMaster: well you wouldn't use that if you wanted to write an infinite loop
16:54:42 <ais523> that way you'd run out of both stack and trail, probably irrelevant which one runs out first
16:54:50 <oklopol> i don't believe in stack overflows
16:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, exactly what I said...
16:55:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I'd say erlang is both high and low level
16:56:05 <AnMaster> high level functional programming is perfectly possible, but interacting with low level stuff is easy too
16:56:37 <AnMaster> not very odd when you think about it
16:56:40 <ais523> well Prolog is definitely high level, it doesn't even have anything very equivalent to what most languages call variables
16:56:46 <AnMaster> it is a general purpose programming language
16:57:04 <AnMaster> ais523, variables are "one time assign" in erlang if that is what you mean
16:57:24 <Deewiant> I heard somewhere that one of Prolog's original creators (or old developers) said that it would have been better off as a library in another language
16:58:14 <tusho> Deewiant: it's widely agreed on nowadays, I believe
16:58:21 <AnMaster> ais523, there *are* ways to get around that, for example using something called EDS tables, which are mostly used by the transaction database mnesia coded in erlang, it need to be stateful for obvious reasons
16:58:28 <ais523> AnMaster: variables are not exactly one time assign in Prolog, they get narrowed down over time
16:58:31 <tusho> Franz's Allegro Common Lisp has a prolog query language built in
16:58:33 <Deewiant> tusho: is there a semi-credible source for such a statement?
16:58:37 <tusho> Deewiant: my brain
16:58:38 <AnMaster> ais523, oh that is a new one hehe
16:58:55 <tusho> they dont' generally remember things
16:59:00 <tusho> sheesh, thought i was on to something then
16:59:03 <tusho> no semi-credible sources
16:59:11 <tusho> Deewiant: oh I know some VERY credible cocks
16:59:13 <tusho> IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN
16:59:16 <tusho> ... I don't know what I mean.
16:59:45 <Deewiant> tusho: where do you get "it's widely agreed on", then :-)
17:01:03 <ais523> AnMaster: basically in SSA a variable gets a value once and never changes, in Prolog once it gets an actual value it never changes (although the assignment can be backtracked past), but variables can be unified with other variables causing the variables to have to have the same value once a value does appear
17:01:19 <Deewiant> tusho: your brain is that wide?
17:01:31 <tusho> Deewiant: my brain is a cock, i think
17:02:48 <oerjan> tusho: i was going to avoid saying that
17:02:59 <tusho> oerjan: it's ok, i can take the immaturity of this channel to new levels
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17:03:04 <tusho> it's just hard finding a good time to do so
17:03:17 <AnMaster> ais523, this sounds more like an automated logic proof checker or so
17:03:21 <tusho> hmm it's also possible that my cock is a brain
17:03:24 <tusho> but that'd be weird.
17:03:35 <tusho> (I mean, weirder than this hypothetical "braincock")
17:03:49 <AnMaster> ais523, no, more like: you give it some rules, and it works out a result that fits with all the rules
17:03:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: doesn't sound far off the mark, actually
17:04:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's pretty much exactly it
17:04:29 <AnMaster> question: will it do "any ok match" or "best match""
17:04:34 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, were it not for the existence of ! that would be Prolog in a nutshell, ! throws the whole system quite out of kilter, which is why I like it
17:04:50 <AnMaster> you have the coast line of africa and south america, and want to find the best possible fit
17:04:55 <ais523> AnMaster: "first match", and you can get subsequent matches using something like setof or failing when you get a match you don't like the look of
17:05:20 <ais523> or in your case you could mess about with assert, which is another way to go insane in Prolog
17:05:31 <AnMaster> ais523, so prolog isn't suited for problems where there are "good" and "better" matches
17:05:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not really good for anything but headlong depth-first search which is bad for that sort of problem
17:06:07 <ais523> that sort of problem is trivial to specify in Prolog but very difficult to specify efficiently
17:06:10 <AnMaster> ais523, so what language would you recommend for the problem I suggested?
17:06:26 <oklopol> i'd recommend muture, if it existed yet
17:06:30 <tusho> how many albums have I downloaded today, 4 or 5?
17:06:46 <tusho> and one arrived that i'd bought
17:06:47 <ais523> AnMaster: not really sure, I can't think of one that fits offhand
17:07:00 <tusho> well, I like all of them so far, so that's good
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17:07:12 <oklopol> made muture exactly for that, running it as a human computer can already accomplish fun stuff
17:07:28 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I would use the "coast line" at say 1000 meters below the sea, I read somewhere that is a much closer fit than the "real" cost line
17:07:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
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17:08:28 <oerjan> the tectonic plates don't stop exactly at the seaside...
17:09:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'd blame erosion I guess
17:09:08 <oerjan> for example, i think britain is on the same plate as the rest of europe, and the north sea
17:09:54 <oerjan> also, sea level change
17:10:11 <oerjan> there was a relevant WP article...
17:15:15 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epeiric_sea i think it was
17:16:36 <oklopol> what *don't* you have vague knowledge about!
17:17:28 <oerjan> it's just a month or so since i discovered that article, and i had a hard time finding it again
17:18:32 <oerjan> (turned out North Sea had a link to it)
17:19:35 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgression_(geology) is also relevant
17:25:50 <ais523> oh dear, tell me anyway
17:26:04 <tusho> a client filter that filters out messages like 'the game', 'i lost the game', 'the game: you all just lost it', etc
17:26:04 <ais523> (n.b. this tends to be my typical reaction to anyone who claims to have a new idea, not just you)
17:27:09 <oerjan> he never claimed it was new
17:30:36 <tusho> well, that was another good album
17:32:42 <tusho> oklopol: no, i said it was good but i was lying
17:32:47 <tusho> why would i tell the truth?
17:33:00 <oklopol> i have no idea how good was it?
17:33:31 <oerjan> tusho: because it's shiny!
17:34:04 <oerjan> er, what is that % doing there
17:34:52 <Deewiant> tusho: I had that thought approximately immediately when you said "Lost the game/"
17:35:01 <tusho> Deewiant: haha, awesome
17:35:34 <Deewiant> tusho: I was interested enough to look at /help ignore but too lazy to write the regex
17:36:25 <ais523> Deewiant: .*[Gg]ame.* should work for most cases
17:36:37 <Deewiant> ais523: a bit too inclusive :-)
17:36:58 <oerjan> TH/\T'5 WH/\T Y0U TH1NK
17:37:14 <oklopol> false positives are okay for that important a filtering
17:37:17 <fizzie> Also the ".*"s surrounding it are spurious, as it will accept a regex match anywhere in the string if you don't anchor it with ^/$.
17:37:32 <ais523> fizzie: ah, I didn't know whether it was anchored or not
17:37:37 <ais523> assuming anchored is more orthogonal
17:38:06 <oerjan> U \/\/ILL L0S3 TH3 G/\M3 /\NYH0\/\/
17:38:47 <ais523> oerjan: I have a Firefox extension to generate leet-speak, I only installed it for rot13 though and the leet came free with it
17:39:11 <ais523> Y()|_| J|_|57 L()57 7|-|3 64|\/|3
17:39:19 <tusho> ais523: GAME woul dwork with that, to
17:39:22 <oerjan> the question here is whether you have an extension to filter it, me thinks
17:39:25 <tusho> YOU JUST LOST THE GAME
17:39:35 <ais523> come to think of it that's sufficiently leet that I can't decipher it myself
17:39:47 <fizzie> I had an ircII script installed which did leet among other ugly formats, once.
17:40:11 <fizzie> It did not convert from leet back to plain text, though.
17:40:33 <ais523> fizzie: the leet back to plain text converter worked fine on that string I pasted
17:40:41 <Deewiant> a GAME fingerprint that maps A-Z to q?
17:40:58 <ais523> Deewiant: wouldn't that be kind of pointless?
17:41:25 <fizzie> Not just a "kind of", many kinds of.
17:41:25 <ais523> besides, it should probably make all of A-Z print out the source code to the GAME fingerprint
17:41:30 <ais523> in different programming languages
17:41:38 <oerjan> *, * -> *, * -> * -> *, etc.
17:42:02 <ais523> oerjan: is that a Haskell kind signature?
17:43:52 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+[.----.++++]
17:43:53 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
17:44:03 <tusho> fizzie: a work of art
17:44:08 <tusho> oklopol: oko-approved?
17:44:33 <tusho> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>+[.----.++++]
17:44:33 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
17:45:17 * tusho considers setting up ESO's Shrine to Oko
17:45:37 <ais523> tusho: it's actually plp, there was an off-by-one error
17:47:03 <tusho> oklopol: the oko shrine will have everything getting bigger and smalling and flickering and will be impossible to navigate
17:47:06 <tusho> unless you are amazing.
17:47:23 <tusho> aww, oko.org is squatted :P
17:47:38 <oerjan> apparently okoko is a surname
17:47:50 <ais523> tusho: I once saw a website about how not to design websites
17:48:03 <ais523> and they'd invented a navigation system which was even worse than the one they liked least
17:48:11 <tusho> what was it called?
17:48:16 <fizzie> Osuuspankki (a Finnish bank) has taken oko.fi; that's not surprising. (Although they're not using that domain any more.)
17:48:35 <ais523> they were annoyed at navigation systems which just showed abstract shapes until rolled over
17:48:43 <ais523> so you had to roll over each image to tell where you could go
17:48:51 <tusho> oklopol: how many 'ko's does an oko site need?
17:48:55 <ais523> so they invented one where the targets of the link were randomised on each rollover
17:48:55 <tusho> okoko, okokokokokoko, etc?
17:49:29 <tusho> ais523: http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html?
17:50:55 <tusho> okoko, okokoko, okokokokokokokokokoko, ...
17:53:21 <tusho> And the Wikipedia Terrible Main Page Suggestion Combined With Bad Sig award goes to...
17:53:23 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Icon
17:54:23 <ais523> tusho: there's a Main Page redesign competition-like object going on at the moment, there are therefore many candidates for the Wikipedia Terrible Main Page Suggestion award
17:54:29 <ais523> not sure about the Combined With Bad Sig part
17:54:40 <tusho> ais523: but that one is truly terrible, click the guys name and see it in action
17:54:56 <ais523> tusho: I've seen the barnstar in question befor
17:55:04 <tusho> ais523: but behind the logo?
17:55:07 <ais523> why do I keep leaving off the last character of sentences today?
17:56:03 <ais523> anyway, I tend to look suspectly at anyone with 4 collapsible boxes of userboxes on their userpage, at least as far as main page design is concerned
17:56:46 <Deewiant> oh wow, a wikipedia page that needs javascript
17:57:13 <ais523> most of the collapse stuff is designed to work without JS
17:57:24 <ais523> although the way it's abused for userpages probably it does need the JS installed
17:57:28 <Deewiant> I can't uncollapse anything with JS disabled
17:57:37 <Deewiant> and I do have JS disabled for wikipedia
17:57:49 <ais523> ugh, it should autoexpand without JS, someone's been messing up the autocollapse code for userpage use
17:57:56 <ais523> a whole lot of dubious coding practices happen on userpages
17:58:25 <tusho> hmm... if you can position:absolute things on wikipedia
17:58:33 <tusho> then you could do a MySpace(TM) and make your completely own page
17:58:36 <tusho> with just the basic chrome at the top
17:58:46 <tusho> it'd probably be removed, but damn, gotta try that
17:58:58 <tusho> oklopol: an oko shrine would have to run really fast, wouldn't it?
17:59:04 <tusho> because while oko code is not fast
17:59:15 <ais523> tusho: you can, but they started messing around with blacklisting various z-index messabouts because people were using them for trolling
17:59:29 <tusho> ais523: ah yes, that one
17:59:33 <tusho> GAWKY or something
17:59:40 <ais523> all the ones that spambots have used automatically will be blocked, so you'll have to write the code an entirely different way
18:00:00 <ais523> and no, the ascii goatse was something else but they blocked that too
18:00:30 <tusho> i need to incorporate oko javascript into this shrine
18:00:36 <tusho> perhaps news reports will be delivered by twitter
18:00:44 <tusho> and got by making an ajax request to the archives
18:00:51 <tusho> applying a formatting language for multi lines, etc
18:00:56 <tusho> and accounting for split over multiple messages
18:00:58 <tusho> then rendering it in the page
18:02:17 <tusho> ais523: http://www.toad.com/gnu/sysadmin/index.html#firefox-eula-sux
18:02:32 <ais523> tusho: Firefox has an EULA?
18:02:37 <tusho> ais523: apparently
18:02:42 <tusho> http://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2008/05/23/firefox-eula/
18:03:36 <ais523> well I never agreed to one on Ubuntu
18:03:45 <tusho> ais523: presumably ubuntu remove it
18:03:52 <ais523> yes, that's what I assumed
18:04:01 <ais523> it's not like an EULA does anything in open source software anyway
18:04:08 <tusho> ais523: speaking of browsers, seen google chrome?
18:04:10 <ais523> besides, sed on a binary is pretty weird...
18:04:15 <ais523> tusho: I've heard of it, but not seen it
18:04:18 <tusho> the process seperation is badly needed, and IE8 actually excels in this area
18:04:29 <tusho> and a new javascript VM is a plus too, js kind of sucks these days + a sandbox = yay
18:04:36 <tusho> also a lot of the UI ideas look quite nice
18:04:46 <Deewiant> just about every browser is getting a new JS engine anyway :-P
18:04:58 <tusho> should be coming out today for windows, apparently an os x version is following
18:05:01 <ais523> tusho: apparently Slashdot has just decided that IEb2 uses more memory than Windows XP
18:05:13 <tusho> ais523: no wifi, less space than a nomad, lame.
18:05:31 <ais523> s/nomad/monad/, or am I missing something here?
18:05:50 <tusho> ais523: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/1816257&tid=107
18:06:28 <ais523> tusho: ah, Slashdot editor deciding they didn't like the iPod
18:06:36 <tusho> ais523: cmdrtaco, even
18:06:40 <ais523> admittedly there are still people who don't like iPods, quite a few
18:06:41 <tusho> it's a rather famous post
18:06:48 <ais523> but they are popular amongst the people who do
18:07:02 <tusho> though mostly as a portable web browser.
18:07:07 <ais523> I don't use a mobile at all
18:07:11 <tusho> (and ipod, though less often)
18:07:17 <tusho> i never call anyone, pretty much
18:07:18 <ais523> arguably my laptop's a portable web browser, though
18:07:19 <tusho> except once recently
18:07:21 <tusho> and texts are rare.
18:07:36 <ais523> and it needs to be in range of a wifi connection I can access
18:08:01 <tusho> admittedly I generally use it to feed my web addiction before I go to sleep :\
18:12:45 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
18:15:20 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
18:25:35 <tusho> http://www.kavoir.com/ <- crAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAzy
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18:38:15 <tusho> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10026577-2.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Webware
18:38:32 <tusho> where do i opt-out?
18:38:42 <tusho> come to think of it, isn't this shit illegal?
18:39:03 <ais523> tusho: what are you referring to, the fact that the page you linked had no text put a headline?
18:39:15 <ais523> ah, it was just slow loading
18:39:31 <tusho> more to the new advance in the war against privacy.
18:40:18 <ais523> I normally don't worry about such software because it's too incompetent to do its job properly
18:40:32 <tusho> let's just hope it doesn't become competent
18:47:07 <fizzie> What is it exactly that you would want to be illegal?
18:47:33 <tusho> fizzie: I couldn't specify it exactly, but stuff like that. Anyone can just identify me in a photo like that.
18:47:39 <tusho> (Obviously, it won't be that good, but that's the IDEA)
18:48:02 <tusho> That's a violation of privacy.
18:49:33 <ais523> tusho: where exactly is the violation? People teaching Google what you look at? Google using that information to find other pictures of you? Somewhere else/
18:49:55 <tusho> ais523: the violation is in the use of the feature to identify me & others
18:50:08 <tusho> although since the feature has absolutely no other use, the feature itself is at fault
18:50:30 <ais523> tusho: presumably it's for people tagging their own images Facebook-style
18:50:34 <ais523> to help them tag more quickly
18:50:40 <tusho> ais523: yeah, and I think that's bad too
18:51:03 <tusho> i don't care if a photo you took has me in it. without my explicit consent you have no right to identify the figure as me
18:59:50 <tusho> ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
19:00:10 <ais523> on the subject of Web Pages That Suck, they found this: <http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/worst-web-sites-of-2007-number10-moire.html> <-- warning don't visit if you suffer from epilepsy or similar problems
19:00:32 <ais523> sorry, <http://web.archive.org/web/20060613061524/http://moire.ch/>, I copied the wrong link
19:00:42 <ais523> make sure you have JS on or you won't be able to see what's wrong
19:01:13 <tusho> ais523: isn't that, like, an art site thing
19:01:16 <tusho> if so it kind of makes sense
19:01:29 <ais523> Deewiant: have you tried with?
19:01:40 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if that could be done with CSS nowadays, probably it could be
19:01:41 <tusho> ais523: i think it's not a bad design for an arty kind of site
19:01:47 <tusho> and no, it couldn't
19:01:50 <tusho> there's no < operator in css
19:01:53 <ais523> tusho: except for knocking you out when you move the mouse?
19:01:54 <tusho> you can't say "the parent of X"
19:01:58 <tusho> ais523: that's art ;
19:02:03 <tusho> the rule would be:
19:02:09 <tusho> a:hover < body { background: ...; }
19:02:21 <tusho> #link-about-trees:hover < body { background: green }
19:03:27 <ais523> still, I reckon that design's inexcusable on any website, no websites should require the user to navigate with the keyboard because using the mouse drives them insane
19:03:44 <ais523> also there's the apparent harmlessness of it before you hover the links
19:04:02 <tusho> i think it fits for a graphic design site, personally
19:04:44 <tusho> aww, they've changed it - http://moire.ch/
19:04:50 <ais523> and yes, no wonder they changed it
19:05:19 <ais523> tusho: most websites don't kill their users when they move the mouse from one end of the screen to the other
19:05:28 <tusho> that would be an awesome site
19:05:34 <tusho> ekillyourselfonline.com
19:05:38 <ais523> tusho: I wouldn't want to visit it, though
19:05:43 <ais523> I like the e in your name for it
19:05:52 <tusho> ais523: They could travel back in time and put commercials on superbowl
19:06:03 <tusho> they'd only cost $100million to make.
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19:06:15 <tusho> and think of the benefit: people could eKill themselves! online!
19:06:20 <ais523> tusho: there are standards for that sort of thing, the London 2012 Olympic adverts had to slow down because they flashed too quickly
19:06:55 <tusho> ais523: the seizures were because it sucked so much
19:06:58 <tusho> not because of the flashes
19:07:27 <ais523> tusho: they were, they have an automatic seizurometer
19:07:38 <ais523> they had to slow it down to 1/4 of the speed to explain what they were talking about on the news
19:07:39 <tusho> man I want one of them
19:07:47 <tusho> I thought you said
19:08:01 <ais523> umm... that doesn't even make sense
19:08:02 <tusho> egiveyourselfaseizureonline.com
19:08:40 <oerjan> and it's lightweight cousin, the seizurino
19:10:43 <fizzie> tusho: Okay, I was just checking that you don't advocate illegalizing facial recognition algorithms or something insane like that. (And sure the feature has other uses: you could use it to tag pictures from your collection containing the face of someone who consents, like yourself. In any case, it would probably be pretty hard to make it illegal to offer that sort of feature.)
19:11:25 <tusho> fizzie: well, you can easily identify yourself without automatic recognition...
19:11:32 <tusho> it's...not hard...
19:12:26 <fizzie> A friend with permission, then. And even tagging pictures containing yourself is hard if there are gazillions of them. Although I fail to see why anyone would want to add a "hey_look_its_me_hey_look_hey_look" tag.
19:12:38 <fizzie> eDeath sounds like something far less serious than death.
19:13:16 <AnMaster> <oerjan> seizure the moment <-- heh
19:13:17 <ais523> well lots of people tag photos on places like Facebook, I don't really understand it myself but apparently Facebook's quite popular
19:13:26 <oerjan> there is also the fancy design iDeath, which works straight out of the box
19:13:46 <fizzie> oerjan: You mean with plain old death you need to install all kinds of patches to make it work right?
19:14:24 <tusho> no, plain old death is ok but kind of buggy
19:14:35 <tusho> dthxi is the patch one
19:14:48 <fizzie> Death bugs might explain all the zombies that seem to be around.
19:14:51 <tusho> iDeath is fashionable. Hipsters use it. Slogan: Die Different.
19:15:03 -!- ais523 has left (?).
19:15:17 <oerjan> dthxbye _thinks_ it is fashionable
19:15:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about plain old Death?
19:16:03 <oerjan> it hasn't been fashionable for eons
19:16:25 <oerjan> it _does_ have a large installed base, though
19:16:33 <tusho> those were my analogies
19:17:43 <AnMaster> tusho, But some use the much more secure OpenDeath ;P
19:18:14 <oerjan> there was the Death Machine with its AI technology, but it was not commercially viable
19:18:20 <tusho> AnMaster: well, I parodied apple with iDeath and am arguably an Apple fanboy but apparently openbsd fanboys can't bring themselves to do that
19:18:47 <AnMaster> well I both like and dislike openbsd
19:19:07 <AnMaster> on one hand, they made some pretty good stuff: OpenSSH, the pf firewall...
19:19:26 <AnMaster> on the other: social skills = *even* less than tusho ;)
19:19:58 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:21:49 <fizzie> Your :'s line up! Awesome.
19:22:10 <ais523> fizzie: not really, given that the lines contain the same characters in a different order
19:25:37 <ais523> 656566969667596767665654657767444454646364454423435534432323321
19:26:25 <tusho> (+ 1 MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM)
19:26:44 <tusho> (http://jwz.livejournal.com/854482.html)
19:27:32 <tusho> AAAA_AAAAA_AAAAA_3
19:28:07 <tusho> oh ha ha, a joke from uncyclopedia
19:28:10 <tusho> those are always funny
19:28:25 <ais523> tusho: someone even based an esolang on it
19:28:31 <tusho> ais523: unfortunately.
19:28:36 <ais523> the strange thing about that joke is it has no obvious reason for existing
19:28:46 <ais523> or even an obvious reason why it's funny
19:28:50 <tusho> ais523: most uncyclopedia jokes are like that.
19:28:52 <Deewiant> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/AAAAAAAAA!
19:28:55 <tusho> they don't really have a justification.
19:28:59 <tusho> Deewiant: thank you, captain obvious!
19:29:03 <ais523> hmm... can a joke be funny if it has no punchline, and no setup?
19:29:11 <ais523> like the null string, for instance?
19:29:16 <oerjan> "Very few things are truly justified" -- Oscar Wilde
19:29:25 <Deewiant> tusho: more like, preventing others from having to search for it
19:29:33 <tusho> ais523: here's a funny joke:
19:29:42 <ais523> oerjan: nowadays, you can justify anything if you have a decent word processor
19:29:44 <tusho> ("BUNNIES!" is not a punchline.)
19:29:56 <tusho> ais523: ragged text is a lot nicer to read, though.
19:30:13 <ais523> I didn't say it was a good idea, and not everyone agrees with you
19:30:25 <Deewiant> I think AnMaster would disagree very much
19:30:30 <tusho> Deewiant: probably.
19:30:36 <tusho> though, uncontroversial is for screen use
19:30:41 <ais523> This sentence is not a punchline.
19:30:44 <AnMaster> <ais523> oerjan: nowadays, you can justify anything if you have a decent word processor << :D
19:30:47 <tusho> it has been studied a lot and proven that for screen use at least, ragged text is a LOT nicer
19:31:00 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not an original joke, I misquoted it from somewhere
19:31:05 <tusho> i prefer it overall, but for screen use there's really no controversy
19:31:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: Oscar Wilde did surprisingly well without one
19:31:16 <AnMaster> well I always use justified text
19:31:20 <ais523> tusho: on Wikipedia enough people wanted justified that they made it a preference option, and the devs hate adding preferences
19:31:33 <AnMaster> unless I use monospace of course
19:31:37 <ais523> although ragged is the default
19:31:59 <ais523> AnMaster: well, justifying program code is the sign either of an insane mind or an IOCCC entry
19:32:21 <tusho> AnMaster: you do not have to highlight everyone
19:32:22 <tusho> AnMaster: all the time
19:32:26 <oerjan> ais523: um i think one of those is contained in the other
19:32:27 <tusho> AnMaster: because if they've just talked
19:32:31 <tusho> AnMaster: then they're paying attention
19:32:33 <tusho> AnMaster: to the channel.
19:32:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I do tend to justify block comments however
19:32:35 <tusho> AnMaster: thank you.
19:33:01 <ais523> I tend to nick-prefix when there's more than one conversation going on at once
19:33:10 <AnMaster> yes and there was there for a bit
19:33:19 <ais523> if I have two conversations at once with the same person in the same channel I normally nick-prefix one and not the opther
19:33:34 <tusho> AnMaster: ais523: oerjan: In future I'm going to nickping everyone active when I want to address everyone
19:33:39 <tusho> AnMaster: ais523: oerjan: so i'm sure they can see it
19:33:51 <AnMaster> I agree with ais523 however there
19:34:04 <AnMaster> and I'm going to do something else: tusho
19:34:04 <ais523> tusho: optbot: fungot: that can get annoying when some of the addressees are irrelevant
19:34:05 <fungot> ais523: gambit's compiler is somewhat better than realtime, meaning joe and jane average don't use linux
19:34:05 <optbot> ais523: No. Everyone would have to leave here to keep the secret.
19:34:11 <AnMaster> I'm going to nick suffix: tusho
19:34:21 <tusho> i'm going to do something different too
19:34:31 <tusho> i just did it! ais523: i bet you can guess what it is
19:34:35 <AnMaster> is it classic? didn't know that, ais523
19:35:14 <ais523> anyway, I think I'll have a go at compiling newlib into brainfuck:AnMaster
19:35:19 <AnMaster> middle-fix it, tusho? I guess so
19:35:21 <tusho> ais523: don't wanna guess?
19:35:29 <ais523> that way I don't have to implement more than about 8 or so functions
19:35:38 <ais523> and a couple of them are trivial
19:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, still don't have internet at home btw?
19:35:54 <oerjan> An: i like circumfix :Master
19:36:21 <AnMaster> that doesn't highlight (oerjan) highlight me
19:36:36 <ais523> oTeHrAjTa nC:O U L D M A K E I T H A R D T O H I G H L I G H T
19:36:59 <ais523> now please nobody tell me off for shouting
19:37:43 <ais523> wow, I'm surprised neither of you figured out what I just did
19:37:54 <tusho> i'm waiting ais523
19:38:03 <ais523> railfence can be hard to read but I put one set of characters in uppercase and the other in lowercase to make it easier
19:38:10 <ais523> read the uppercase and lowercase separately
19:38:25 <oerjan> ais523: what do you mean didn't figure out
19:38:28 <tusho> all 2003 logs are gone from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
19:38:50 <ais523> tusho: do you still have them saved for optbot?
19:38:51 <optbot> ais523: nothing really
19:38:54 <oerjan> i don't have to comment on every obvious thing
19:39:24 <AnMaster> tusho, so upload them somewhere
19:39:35 <fizzie> Uh? There's still old/esoteric-03.zip there.
19:41:23 <tusho> is this nef guy dead?
19:41:34 <tusho> he does't seem to have updated thinsg since like 2006
19:49:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("ZZZZZZZZZZ").
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19:55:30 <fizzie> Oh, right; happened across that old old Penny Arcade comic the earlier webdesign conversation immediately reminded me of: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/3/3
19:56:03 <ais523> fizzie: did you visit the website in question with JS on?
19:56:25 <fizzie> The one discussed here? Nope.
19:56:27 <tusho> for some years now
19:56:52 <tusho> it was kind of wheezing out the last breaths it could manage in 2003, 2004
19:56:58 <tusho> but had been inactive a little before that
19:57:05 <tusho> since then it's just a ghost town
19:57:23 <tusho> there are still people in #tunes but they never speak until you comment on how dead the place is and they joke that it'll be active again one day.
20:02:48 <tusho> ais523: well, that's the first time I've seen someone claim that the IE team has "imperial contempt for the world and all its people" seriously
20:03:09 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6z460/official_google_blog_a_fresh_take_on_the_browser/c059gba, third child now
20:05:24 <tusho> God damn. hoodwink.d (http://hoodwink.d/) is still down.
20:05:28 -!- olsner has joined.
20:05:50 <tusho> ais523: no, you have to add hoodwink.d to your hosts file to go to it
20:06:04 <ais523> so does it actually have a domain name then?
20:06:14 <tusho> nope, but the ip doesn't work directly as it hosts multiple sites
20:06:17 <tusho> so you have to add it to your hosts
20:06:18 <ais523> after all you could aim, say, example.com there if you really wanted to
20:06:27 <tusho> the Host header would be wrong
20:06:37 <tusho> anyway, it's a site+greasemonkey script by why the lucky stiff that lets you comment on any site at all
20:06:43 <tusho> it uses xpath expressions to find out where to put the comment box
20:06:49 <tusho> it's a little underground toy thing and it was a lot of fun
20:06:56 <tusho> but sometime in 2007 it just stopped working. :(
20:07:13 <ais523> that actually sounds like an interesting idea
20:07:31 -!- LinuS has joined.
20:07:49 <tusho> ais523: one of the funniest was on wikipedia
20:07:59 <tusho> people put nonsense articles in the comments for nonexistent articles
20:08:10 <tusho> so that you could actually go there and see the article, albeit not in the content box
20:09:17 <tusho> hey perhaps i could revive it myself
20:09:21 <tusho> ... Nah. Nobody would use it.
20:09:44 <fizzie> I think there have been at least some "leave comments on any site" thingies; never have used any of them, though.
20:10:00 <tusho> fizzie: this one was funnier, though, because of the undergroundness of it all
20:10:09 <tusho> it had its own little forum which didn't do any foruming at all
20:10:16 <tusho> it just had a hoodwink.d entry and put that in the content area
20:10:27 <tusho> so all it handled was giving a new uri out on request
20:10:34 <tusho> and to top it off, you couldn't see it
20:10:37 <tusho> if you went there, it just wasn't there
20:10:41 <tusho> because everything was display: none
20:10:44 <tusho> so you had to add a user style
20:12:07 <tusho> bye for a while (hour or so)
20:12:31 <fizzie> What sort of time zone was tusho in, anyway?
20:17:25 <AnMaster> are there any java fanboys here?
20:17:39 <ais523> I doubt it, we tend to scare them out of existence
20:17:39 <fizzie> The fact that the mentioned zeepmobile.com site only works in the US sort-of confused me.
20:17:58 <fizzie> What do you need a Java fanboy for?
20:18:31 <AnMaster> however I was looking for a fight with someone, since I tried to make a java app run and it just cause all sorts of problems
20:19:12 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a ##java or something.
20:19:26 <AnMaster> tusho, are you ignoring randomly currently?
20:20:26 <AnMaster> you will love this (and no: I'm making a joke, I don't really care about it, I was looking for something else when I came a across this) "Intel® VTune™ Performance Analyzer 9.0 for Linux" ... but I can't use it, not free software
20:20:33 <AnMaster> http://www.intel.com/cd/software/products/asmo-na/eng/vtune/239145.htm btw
20:20:47 <AnMaster> I was looking for ICC for Linux x86_64 download actually
20:20:53 <AnMaster> since I needed to try something out
20:21:25 <ais523> AnMaster: Intel invented powertop too IIRC, that's something that Windows has no real hope of replicating atm
20:21:39 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but powertop is open source
20:21:43 <fizzie> Isn't ICC a bit non-free, though?
20:21:53 <AnMaster> but I need to make sure stuff compiles
20:22:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does compile on ICC
20:22:37 <AnMaster> but current software uses X, my P3 that got ICC on it doesn't have X
20:22:49 <AnMaster> it doesn't even have any screen
20:23:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, gcc-llvm tested, works fine
20:23:24 -!- oklofok has joined.
20:23:26 <AnMaster> Borland, don't plan to pay anything
20:23:36 <Deewiant> hmm, I'm somewhat surprised you haven't at least heard of Comeau
20:23:46 <Deewiant> but I guess it's more of a C++ thing
20:23:49 <fizzie> Borland compilers are available, I think. At least some of 'em were at some point.
20:23:51 <ais523> AnMaster: pretty much nobody does all of C99, gcc implements the more often used bits though
20:23:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Comeau sounds slightly familiar
20:23:56 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:24:00 <AnMaster> ais523, err ICC does it more or less
20:24:11 <Deewiant> Comeau has pretty much the best standards support AFAICT
20:24:32 <ais523> I thought it supported C99 nowadays, I might be wrong though
20:25:05 <AnMaster> ais523, and about C99, iirc the ICC frontend is pretty good, oh and GCC are working on it too
20:25:19 <Deewiant> somewhat evidently: http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-5265/bjayy?a=view
20:25:22 <ais523> part of the problem is that gcc's only about two-thirds of a compiler
20:25:29 <fizzie> http://gcc.gnu.org/c99status.html is looking reasonably good already.
20:25:35 <ais523> the libraries need to handle it too, also the linker
20:26:04 <Deewiant> on windows, the problem is the libraries
20:26:22 <Deewiant> MSVCRT doesn't have any C99 stuff
20:26:45 <Deewiant> I wouldn't be surprised if it lacked some obscure part of C90, too :-P
20:26:51 <AnMaster> and I was planning a project using complex numbers
20:27:18 <Deewiant> of course you might want to check what "broken" actually means
20:27:30 <Deewiant> for instance, VLAs are "broken" but most cases probably work fine
20:27:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I got syntax errors from Visual Studio C++ Express or whatever it is called
20:27:34 <fizzie> You can also get Borland C++ Compiler 5.5 free-as-in-beer too. Very new; released in the year 2000.
20:27:35 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not very broken, it probably just doesn't conform with the specs in some cases
20:27:38 <AnMaster> was 2005 edition or 2008 edition
20:27:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and it was a legal C99 think
20:27:50 <ais523> fizzie: where? I still have bc4 at home
20:27:55 <ais523> so it would be an upgrade for me...
20:28:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, it doesn't support C99 so that's not unexpected.
20:28:14 <fizzie> www.codegear.com/downloads/free/cppbuilder
20:28:52 <fizzie> I had 4.x from a pcplus magazine cover CD, too. That was some time ago.,
20:29:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it do C99 at all?
20:29:56 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's for windows and is C89/C++98
20:30:09 <ais523> that's an improvement, bc4 was well before C++98
20:30:11 <AnMaster> no point in even trying cfunge under it
20:30:25 <fizzie> That's also the command-line stuff only; I had the IDE parts of bc4 too.
20:30:38 <ais523> and so its C++ wasn't very standard, I have #ifdefs all over my C++ code that I wrote to compile on both bc4 and g++
20:30:45 <ais523> fizzie: yes, I have the IDE parts too
20:30:47 <AnMaster> ICC handles the parts of C99 that cfunge use, So does GCC
20:30:55 <AnMaster> however there is a known library issue on FreeBSD
20:31:03 <AnMaster> FreeBSD lacks sinl() cosl() and such
20:31:05 <Deewiant> Comeau is the only compiler that supports the C++98 feature "export templates"
20:31:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "export templates" what is that?
20:31:39 <Deewiant> google it, I can't easily explain it in a few lines
20:31:44 <Deewiant> especially if you're unfamiliar with C++
20:31:59 <ais523> oh dear, yes Deewiant's right here
20:32:00 <AnMaster> and I know similiar concepts from other languages
20:32:04 <ais523> templates are bad enough as they are
20:32:23 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't templates like type generic classes or such?
20:32:27 <ais523> can cause all sorts of weirdness in C++, for instance they can do Turing-complete calculations at compile time
20:32:42 <ais523> AnMaster: a bit, well a lot really except there are a huge number of edge/corner cases
20:32:49 <Deewiant> but also Factorial<10> can give 3628800
20:32:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok *that* is strange
20:32:58 <ais523> as a compile-time constant
20:33:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hehe, good luck copying stuff from CCBI when the next version comes out
20:33:20 <Deewiant> it uses templates a /LOT/ to generate code
20:33:22 <AnMaster> ah well the simple case here, that is about what C#'s generic classes implement
20:33:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and does D have that really
20:33:40 <ais523> because they're oh so esoteric
20:33:41 <Deewiant> yes, D's templates are more powerful than C++'s
20:33:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, + you can't do that for all fingerprints
20:33:52 <ais523> Deewiant: no they aren't, C++'s are turing-complete
20:33:56 <Deewiant> you don't even know what I do :-P
20:34:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the stuff I reuse is basically when the fingerprint specs are too vague and you have already implemented it
20:34:18 <Deewiant> ais523: well, I suppose you know what I meant
20:34:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I implemented my SOCK not looking at your
20:34:44 <fizzie> I think C# generics have more in common with Java generics than C++ templates. Does C# even do code generation with them? Java ones at least are implemented with that type erasure thing.
20:35:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, issues are stuff like butterfly operator in TOYS
20:35:27 <AnMaster> and 3DSP since I don't know matrix manipulation
20:35:42 <ais523> fizzie: Java templates are an utter mess, they tried to retrofit them to a language that doesn't like them
20:35:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think they could be done at runtime
20:36:06 <ais523> and as a result you have a lot of random arbitrary casts and such trying to get things to the right data type
20:36:13 <AnMaster> anyway doesn't lisp have some sort of powerful macros?
20:36:16 <fizzie> Well, they're not even called "templates" there.
20:36:32 <AnMaster> maybe you could approximate that using C++ templates!
20:36:34 <ais523> AnMaster: Lisp macros are like text substitution on steroids
20:36:45 <ais523> they're more like #define than template<typename x>
20:36:47 <Deewiant> D's have approximately the same power as those of Lisp
20:36:47 <AnMaster> ais523, how does that factorial one work?
20:36:53 <Deewiant> but the syntax is of course much uglier
20:36:56 <ais523> AnMaster: recursion in the template definition
20:37:01 <Deewiant> and they don't currently work on ASTs directly
20:37:09 <ais523> I couldn't write it offhand though, I'm not very good at writing C++ templates
20:37:16 <Deewiant> which makes it an occasional pain to work with
20:37:43 <AnMaster> what the heck does bitshift have to do with STDOUT?
20:37:45 <ais523> AnMaster: operand overloading
20:37:53 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but it is silly operator overloading
20:37:57 <ais523> the answer is "nothing, so we can use the << operator for something else"
20:38:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is confusing
20:38:24 <AnMaster> really operator overloading has it's uses
20:38:38 <AnMaster> say you implement a class that does number as fractions of BIGNUMS
20:38:54 <ais523> AnMaster: that's sane operator overloading, go and talk about it in a sane channel
20:38:56 <AnMaster> so you can represent stuff like 1/9 precisely
20:39:04 <AnMaster> then you could overload / * and so on
20:39:15 <AnMaster> but using << for "write to output"
20:39:18 <ais523> you can overload casts too in C++
20:39:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you've actually seen D's templates in CCBI already, mixin (Code!("NULL")) and so forth
20:39:33 <ais523> like define (int) to mean something different on your class
20:39:37 <ais523> then you can cast it to int easily
20:39:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so that you can do (int)bignum
20:39:59 <ais523> although C++ has 4 different types of cast so you can explain to the compiler why you're doing it
20:40:07 <ais523> one of which can only be resolved at runtime
20:40:19 <Deewiant> hooray for 5 different ways to cast
20:40:27 <ais523> because of polymorphism, the time an object looks like at compile time is not necessarily the type it actually is
20:41:22 <fizzie> If you want to see template nastinessitude, Boost is a nice place to look at; for example Boost.Lambda, http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_36_0/doc/html/lambda.html -- I _think_ the implementation was pretty template-heavy.
20:41:48 <fizzie> It is rather extreme in any case.
20:42:10 <AnMaster> <ais523> although C++ has 4 different types of cast so you can explain to the compiler why you're doing it
20:42:10 <AnMaster> <ais523> one of which can only be resolved at runtime
20:42:28 <ais523> AnMaster: const_cast which adds or removes const/volatile
20:42:46 <ais523> static_cast which is for casts that can be calculated at compile time
20:42:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the latter, implicit casting, wasn't included
20:42:58 <ais523> dynamic_cast is the one that only works at runtime
20:42:59 <AnMaster> ais523, ah ok, makes sense I guess
20:43:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: with that, it's 6. :-P
20:43:06 <ais523> I've forgotten what the fourth named one is
20:43:29 <ais523> Deewiant: ah yes, taking the bit pattern of something and interpreting it as a different data type
20:43:32 <fizzie> With dynamic_cast<Foo*>(bar); you get a NULL out of it if "bar" is not a Foo pointer. Or something like that.
20:43:36 <ais523> like interpreting a pointer as an int
20:43:57 <fizzie> And reinterpret_cast is the one which looks most like the C casts.
20:43:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: want to define a new union type every time you do that?
20:44:01 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but that's type-punning and that's wrong, in fact it can be optimised to not work correctly in some cases in C++ I think
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20:44:44 <ais523> AnMaster: there's an example in the GCC docs, say you have a union of a float and an int, then you assign to the int and return a pointer to the float to the function, then access a float through that pointer
20:44:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_punning
20:44:47 <AnMaster> ais523, if union breaks the compiler is obviously wrong
20:45:04 <ais523> it's not necessarily going to have been set from the bits of the int, according to the C standard, it might just read garbage
20:45:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well I do use float/int unions
20:45:08 <ais523> due to the aliasing rules
20:45:15 <AnMaster> don't think I return pointers to one of them
20:45:19 <ais523> AnMaster: well on gcc it only breaks when pointers are involved
20:45:30 <AnMaster> ais523, no pointers except to the whole union
20:45:33 <fizzie> Yes; the C standard says that if you write a union using one member, you must not read it through any other member.
20:45:43 <ais523> <wikipedia> For example, reading from a different union member than the last one written invokes undefined behavior, but the effect in practice is usually to permit type punning.
20:46:02 <fizzie> Well, there was the wikipedia quote.
20:46:04 <AnMaster> how the heck can you then store a float in an int
20:46:07 <ais523> gcc deliberately allows it to work in the situation when you write from one and read from the other without doing anything tricky
20:46:20 <ais523> AnMaster: read up about the strict aliasing rules some time
20:46:23 <ais523> Deewiant: you can, memcpy()
20:46:25 <Deewiant> implementation-defined, not portable and all that.
20:46:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it works under other compilers too
20:46:45 <ais523> Deewiant: you can access both of them via unsigned char pointers
20:46:57 <Deewiant> that's actually well-defined? wow.
20:46:58 <ais523> unsigned char is special with respect to the aliasing rules
20:47:05 <ais523> it was special-cased in the standard
20:47:07 <Deewiant> ah, that rings a bell, yes indeed
20:47:08 <AnMaster> ais523, nice, so I just do: (float*)(unsigned char*)&myint?
20:47:41 <ais523> I think so, not sure though
20:47:51 <ais523> float would have to be the same size as int for that to make sense
20:48:00 <ais523> and the result's going to differ depending on padding, etc
20:48:11 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it would be int32_t actually
20:48:34 <fizzie> ais523: I'm not certain the memcpy apporach is safe; surely you can read all the bits of a float with memcpy (or through a unsigned char *), but the bit pattern might be some sort of a trap representation when interpreted as int. You could store the _value_ of the bytes in the integer if it's large enough, of course.
20:48:38 <AnMaster> ais523, so you mean you can't implement FPSP, FPDP and 3DSP in any portable way?
20:48:50 <ais523> course you can, you can memcpy
20:49:08 <ais523> and emulate 32-bit float yourself on targets which don't have it
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20:49:22 <ais523> fizzie: unsigned int isn't allowed to have trap representations
20:49:26 <ais523> but apart from that you're right
20:49:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well actually I would just error out on those
20:49:35 <AnMaster> I was adding size checks in cmakelists today
20:49:51 <AnMaster> ais523, "trap representations"?
20:49:55 <fizzie> ais523: Okay, I was in fact thinking there might be something special when one of the parties is an integer.
20:50:07 <ais523> well, if it's signed, you can have problems
20:50:17 <ais523> a trap representation's a number that causes a program to error if it's used
20:50:19 <AnMaster> well it would be in FPSP and FPDP
20:50:46 <ais523> 0x80000000 is common as a trap representation on 32-bit systems, and is in fact the only value allowed for one in a 32-bit signed int by the standard
20:50:56 <ais523> even more systems don't have a trap representation at all
20:51:00 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway how comes no tools "warn portability" checks actually warn about using an union there?
20:51:15 <ais523> AnMaster: because everyone does it anyway so no sane compiler manufacturer would break it
20:51:19 <fizzie> Still, with a large enough signed integer you could store the value of the float bytes in there.
20:51:27 <AnMaster> so I'll just depend on it then :)
20:51:35 <ais523> fizzie: or enough unsigned chars
20:51:55 <fizzie> Yes, but if you only have a single funge-cell to work with.
20:51:57 <AnMaster> ais523, um what if I want to use something that happens to be 0x80000000
20:52:26 <AnMaster> for example will those systems crash when the unix timestamp hit that value?
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20:52:28 <ais523> AnMaster: the range of int doesn't include that number
20:52:43 <ais523> so such systems break 1 second earlier than other systmes
20:53:02 <ais523> AnMaster: yes it is, it's -2^31-1 to +2^31-1 with one trap representation
20:53:10 <ais523> that's 2^32 possibilities total, so 32 bit
20:53:18 <AnMaster> anyway we will all have 64-bit timestamps by then
20:53:29 <fizzie> And they might break harder; a trap representation might cause hard abort()s or something, instead of some sort of wrap-around.
20:53:35 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about those systems that doesn't have a trap?
20:53:41 <ais523> AnMaster: they roll over, normally
20:53:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well linux already got it in kernel iirc
20:53:59 <ais523> but incrementing a signed int past its maximum is undefined behaviour
20:54:06 <Deewiant> I wonder what will happen to embedded systems
20:54:09 <ais523> and in fact gcc takes advantage of this on occasion
20:54:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does Funge-98 say what should happen on funge cell overflow?
20:55:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does CCBI trap SIGPIPE?
20:55:43 <ais523> AnMaster: it's undefined in C for signed integers, wraparound for unsigned
20:55:43 <Deewiant> the bit representation is probably also unspecced
20:55:54 <ais523> this implies that unsigned can only have trap representations if it also has padding
20:55:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, CCBI does nothing with signals.
20:55:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it doesn't your SOCK could be non-conforming
20:56:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since you would crash on a SIGPIPE iirc if not handled
20:56:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: do the SOCK specs say I have to trap SIGPIPE?
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20:56:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they say you have to reverse on error iirc
20:56:24 <RodgerTheGreat> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/GE/GE.Basic.1965.102646121.pdf
20:56:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and you get SIGPIPE on error
20:56:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's not an error, that's a signal. :-P
20:56:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so just ignore SIGPIPE and use the PIPE return value
20:56:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but it is caused by an error
20:56:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but in all honesty most likely tango does something
20:57:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can you whip up a test program?
20:57:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not really, it happens on network errors iirc
20:58:24 <Deewiant> well I can just netcat something and Ctrl-C, or?
20:58:50 <AnMaster> I always heard it applies to sockets too, however http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGPIPE seems to say it is pipes only
20:58:58 <ais523> Deewiant: netcat and ctrl-d probably
20:59:20 <AnMaster> ais523, it is for sockets too right?
20:59:37 <olsner> sigpipe verily applies to sockets as well
20:59:46 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure, I don't know all that much POSIX yet
20:59:58 <AnMaster> ais523, you edit on wikipedia right? go fix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGPIPE :P
21:00:19 <ais523> AnMaster: anyone can edit Wikipedia
21:00:32 <AnMaster> ais523, except I refuse for religious reasons :P
21:01:01 <Deewiant> and your religion doesn't prevent you from inciting others to do so?
21:01:11 <fizzie> Yes, and send() will give you a SIGPIPE if the socket has been shutdown(foo, SHUT_WR)ed, for example.
21:01:11 -!- megatron has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:01:40 <fizzie> I guess it might happen because of some network error too; at least it doesn't seem to be forbidden.
21:01:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed doing that is the command of the higher force
21:02:25 <Deewiant> this higher force sounds like an idiot
21:02:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes so if remote end does shutdown() on it?
21:11:42 <AnMaster> "one of the changes from C90 to C99 was to remove any restriction on accessing one member of a union when the last store was to a different one"
21:11:47 <ais523> AnMaster: http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_257.htm
21:11:52 <ais523> that's to do with type punning in unions
21:11:56 <AnMaster> ais523, that was I was reading
21:12:05 <ais523> basically someone suggested that it should work the way that you suggested
21:12:09 <ais523> and the standards body said no
21:12:19 <ais523> but then, they say no to just about every defect report raised
21:12:25 <ais523> and it costs a lot of money to submit one to them
21:13:27 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> "one of the changes from C90 to C99 was to remove any restriction on accessing one member of a union when the last store was to a different one"
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21:14:00 <ais523> from that sentence I can't figure out which direction the change was in
21:20:09 <AnMaster> ais523, hm http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_283.htm
21:20:55 <ais523> AnMaster: well they didn't even answer...
21:21:22 <AnMaster> http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n980.htm
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21:25:21 <AnMaster> ais523, http://wwwold.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/dr_236.htm
21:27:34 <fizzie> Even if C99 had relaxed the aliasing rules re type-punning with unions, I'm still pretty sure that a float interpreted as int might well be that one allowed trap representation of a signed integer.
21:28:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, So FPSP and FPDP are basically broken?
21:28:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, for me it is just int64_t btw
21:28:55 <ais523> fizzie: AnMaster: luckily not with IEEE floats, 0x80000000 happens to be an invalid float
21:29:09 <AnMaster> ais523, ah which I actually say in README is needed
21:29:29 <AnMaster> * cfunge requires IEC 60559 floating-point arithmetic (please see Annex F in
21:29:29 <AnMaster> ISO/IEC 9899 for more details.)
21:29:43 <ais523> AnMaster: why does it require that sort of float arithmetic?
21:30:10 <ais523> hmm... I'm not sure if 0x00000080 is an invalid float though, what if floats are big-endian and ints are little-endian?
21:30:29 <AnMaster> ais523, because it is needed for FPDP and FPSP. You can't be sure it works otherwise
21:31:22 <ais523> AnMaster: what if you're using 64-bit funge?
21:31:44 <ais523> actually, that could break badly if you're compiling 32-bit on a 64-bit system
21:31:56 <ais523> because the two ints could quite possibly have 32 bits of padding between them
21:32:44 <ais523> in theory they could have 32 bits of padding between them anyway, but compilers tend not to do that without a reason
21:33:18 <AnMaster> it should be possible to access an int32_t at an address evenly divisible by sizeof(int32_t) I assume?
21:33:53 <AnMaster> it would be rather tricky to handle stuff if that wasn't true
21:34:04 <ais523> I'm not convinced, probably, but that's asking about alignment and all sorts of weird stuff happens when you think about alignment
21:34:17 <ais523> maybe someday I'll write a DS9K implementation that aligns all structs to prime numbers
21:34:23 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if you like, rewrite FPSP and FPDP to be strictly conforming then!
21:35:05 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway that wouldn't work for double
21:35:15 <fizzie> I can easily imagine a system where int32_t is implemented as a 64-bit quantity with padding; perhaps because the system does not do any <64-bit access and the implementor doesn't want to do any shifting around.
21:35:17 <AnMaster> if what you say about padding ever happens
21:35:18 <ais523> AnMaster: accessing a char is always aligned
21:35:33 <ais523> so you just memcpy 4 chars at a time
21:35:53 <ais523> presumably you're assuming 8-bit char, some systems have 9-bit char but I seriously doubt cfunge would run on those the way you're doing things
21:36:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well I need to handle FPSP and FPDP
21:36:25 <AnMaster> and I need to conform to other parts of the befunge specs
21:36:32 <fizzie> With that int64_t, you could also store the 32-bit float bit-pattern as the value of an integer with something like: float f; int64_t i; ... unsigned char *p = (unsigned char *)&f; i = p[0] | (p[1] << 8) | (p[2] << 16) | (p[3] << 24);
21:36:57 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's the sort of thing that can be done correctly
21:37:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, USE64 vs. USE32 is decided at compile time
21:37:17 <ais523> if -fweb and -O3 are on then gcc might not even slow down as a result
21:37:19 <fizzie> Of course that assumes CHAR_BIT == 8, sizeof(float) == 4 and sizeof(int64_t) == large enough.
21:37:25 <AnMaster> so that makes everything more complex
21:37:30 <ais523> and -fweb is implied by -funroll-loops
21:37:51 <ais523> fizzie: sizeof(int64_t) == 64/CHAR_BIT
21:37:56 <ais523> that's how int64_t is defined
21:38:41 <ais523> AnMaster: allows the compiler to change which register it's holding a register variable in midfunction
21:39:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't declare any variable with register...
21:39:03 <ais523> it makes it near-impossible to explain to a debugger what's going on, but if you ask for funroll-loops it assumes you don't care much about that anyway
21:39:13 <ais523> AnMaster: -O3 auto-registers variables when it helps
21:39:20 <ais523> I think -O2 does too, for that matter
21:39:42 <AnMaster> ais523, ggdb4 obviously needs to be invented ;)
21:39:59 <tusho> ais523: google chrome is out
21:40:05 <tusho> http://www.google.com/chrome
21:40:09 <ais523> tusho: does it run in Wine, I wonder?
21:40:32 <AnMaster> can you use Windows Live search in it? XD
21:41:23 <fizzie> I guess you should be able to "portably" store a 32-bit IEEE float in a "long", since the value range of long is [-(2^31-1), 2^31-1] and that's enough distinct values to hold all the IEEE floats, which have at least that one illegal value.
21:42:06 <AnMaster> well unless anyone complains I won't change current one, unless you can come up with one universal and sane solution :P
21:42:23 <AnMaster> I hardly expect anyone to use cfunge on non-x86/x86_64
21:42:35 <ais523> tusho: I'm not downloading it anyway because I don't like their EULA
21:42:43 <AnMaster> and if someone actually hits an issue with it in a non-contrived case then I shall fix it
21:42:48 <ais523> which is actually potentially enforceable because you have to agree to it pre-download
21:42:49 <fizzie> Given how common the "union of float and int" (or even "union of int and pointer") approaches are, the current way probably works just about anywhere.
21:43:01 <ais523> at least it gets around many of the common problems with enforcing EULAs
21:43:09 <fizzie> Don't you want your cfunge to work on a DS9K? :p
21:43:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, well tell me what DS9K is
21:43:26 <ais523> AnMaster: would you consider an automated C to brainfuck translater to be a contrived case
21:43:34 <ais523> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=DS9K, I wrote that article
21:43:38 <AnMaster> ais523, does it do such aligning issues?
21:44:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh that, and then: yes
21:44:03 <ais523> AnMaster: no alignment issues on gcc-bf, it aligns to 8 bits
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21:44:16 <ais523> the DS9K has all alignment issues possible, except when you want it to
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21:44:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well I checked it on 32-bit and 64-bit x86
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21:44:39 <AnMaster> once clang is ready I plan to make sure it works there too
21:44:46 <tusho> 1. it's open source, just remove the eula
21:44:47 <AnMaster> currently I can't get clang to build even so ;P
21:44:57 <tusho> ais523: 2. is it the stuff about sending your browser history to google
21:45:00 <tusho> because that has a setting to turn it off
21:45:09 <tusho> and yeah, that being default is the most braindeaded thing ever
21:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i just meant, when you start going oracle, you might wanna rethink what it means for something to be "O(n)".
21:45:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Was cfunge-0.3.0 recent enough to run fungot?
21:45:53 <ais523> tusho: it's the stuff about if you use any of their services they can change their Ts&Cs without telling you and if you use their services again you're bound by the new Ts&Cs
21:45:53 <fungot> fizzie: and more plus shipping ( honest). other scheme implementations but guile is my favorite. i.e. you never have to
21:46:03 <tusho> ais523: dude. everything has that
21:46:08 <tusho> seriously: everything
21:46:25 <ais523> tusho: well nowadays I don't agree to EULAs that require that, that's like zombifying yourself in Agora
21:46:39 <tusho> ais523: every EULA has done that since I can remember.
21:46:40 <fizzie> I don't think I have bzr here. :/
21:46:42 <ais523> how am I meant to check the Ts&Cs for scams when they can change while I'm looking
21:46:46 <tusho> you can't avoid it.
21:46:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, only later ones got SOCK it seems
21:47:01 <ais523> tusho: you can, most computer games come with a fixed EULA for instance
21:47:05 <ais523> that doesn't change behind your back
21:47:14 <tusho> all online services have it
21:47:15 <tusho> and most software.
21:47:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, so next release (a few weeks I guess, but I never make promises about that) will have it
21:47:38 <ais523> tusho: well I don't agree to online services with those sorts of rules nowadays, and most software I use doesn't have EULAs at all
21:47:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, the current development version is stable enough to run it though
21:47:47 <tusho> ais523: enjoy your 1999
21:47:48 <ais523> just 28 different trivial modifications to BSD
21:47:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually core is pretty much stable
21:48:03 <ais523> tusho: I'm not on the Internet that much, so why should I rely on online services?
21:48:04 <AnMaster> tusho, ais523: about the aliasing issue
21:48:16 <ais523> most of the time I spend on the Internet is on IRC and email...
21:48:30 <tusho> damn chrome is fast
21:48:34 <ais523> AnMaster: there's an exception in C99 just so berkeley sockets work, amazingly
21:48:36 <tusho> INFORMATION SUPER HIGHWAY
21:49:05 <ais523> AnMaster: you can union structs as long as they start with the same members and you only access those members, and the union's visible from the declaration of both structs
21:49:08 <AnMaster> tusho, any browser is fast here...
21:49:12 <ais523> which is a really weird rule when you think about it
21:49:17 <tusho> AnMaster: but this is superspeed. :)
21:49:40 <tusho> rendering times have a long way to go
21:49:47 <AnMaster> tusho, it is still restricted by network speed for me
21:50:00 <tusho> AnMaster: no, you're bound by rendering speed
21:50:05 <ais523> tusho: I wonder how much they modified WebKit?
21:50:11 <tusho> ais523: i don't think much
21:50:19 <AnMaster> tusho, they based it on webkit?
21:50:24 <ais523> is it just unmodified Safari or Konqueror stuff, or is it Special Google Nonevil Webkit
21:50:25 <tusho> it's open source, too
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21:50:38 <AnMaster> ais523, nonevil? is webkit evil?
21:50:44 <tusho> AnMaster: konqueror is pretty much terrible.
21:50:58 <ais523> AnMaster: when Google make a version of something, their version is by definition less evil than the original
21:51:00 <AnMaster> tusho, agreed, but not the rendering really, it is a bad browser in other aspects
21:51:15 <ais523> if Google sold fluffy kittens then your fluffy kittens would be evil by comparison to theirs
21:51:20 <tusho> ais523: have you slept yet.
21:51:39 <ais523> AnMaster: I may have been sarcastic over my past few comments
21:51:39 <tusho> google are as evil as any corp except they're cooler so.
21:51:51 <AnMaster> tusho, does it support gopher ;)
21:51:59 <tusho> gimme a gopher link, i'll test.
21:52:13 <ais523> tusho: try it on anagolf with the back buttons, that has some weird breakage on Konq
21:52:21 <AnMaster> tusho, gopher://inspircd.dyndns.org/
21:52:28 <tusho> AnMaster: nope, treats it as a "needs external program"
21:52:59 <tusho> ais523: works fine
21:53:06 <ais523> ah, they must have fixed that bug then
21:53:17 <ais523> Konq is really confusing, all the labels end up on the wrong buttons
21:53:24 * tusho sees how fast gmail is
21:53:27 <fizzie> Just for the heck of it, tried to build cfunge development version on this 32-bit ppc OS X thing. Dies when building SOCK; INADDR_NONE not defined.
21:53:47 <ais523> INADDR_NONE's just a constant 0, isn't it?
21:53:49 <tusho> this shit owns, even in parallels
21:53:51 <tusho> and parallels is a dog
21:54:33 <tusho> ok, google, now you have to release an os x version
21:54:36 <AnMaster> tusho, chrome doesn't have a search box?
21:54:43 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the URL bar
21:54:45 <tusho> AnMaster: the address bar is an everything bar
21:54:51 <tusho> it's like the awesomebar, except even more awesome.
21:54:54 <AnMaster> well maybe I don't want to end up on google every time
21:55:02 <tusho> AnMaster: you can configure the search engine
21:55:02 <AnMaster> maybe I want another search engine
21:55:08 <ais523> tusho: I'd argue less awesome, in that the awesomebar adjusts itself to websites you visit
21:55:15 <tusho> ais523: as does this
21:55:19 <AnMaster> tusho, actually I prefer firefox 1.5 theme
21:55:47 <ais523> well, I'm one of the 3 people in the world who actually likes Ubuntu's default colour scheme
21:55:53 <tusho> ais523: i'm another
21:55:56 <fizzie> ais523: Usually I think it's ((in_addr_t)-1). It's the "error value" from inet_addr, but it's a bit problematic since it's also a valid address.
21:55:58 <AnMaster> "By keeping each tab in an isolated "sandbox", we were able to prevent one tab from crashing another"
21:56:02 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/why.html?hl=en
21:56:09 <tusho> what is wtf about that
21:56:11 <tusho> it's perfectly reasonable
21:56:16 <tusho> AnMaster: they don't
21:56:19 <tusho> only chrome and IE8
21:56:43 <tusho> AnMaster: it takes the tab=sandbox idea even further
21:56:47 <tusho> all JS alerts, etc are contained within it
21:56:51 <Deewiant> they're not separate OS processes though?
21:56:53 <AnMaster> I expect ff people are working on it
21:57:00 <tusho> you can't lock up the browser with [[while (true) { alert("lol") }]]
21:57:03 <Deewiant> for JS alerts, I think they are
21:57:10 <Deewiant> or there's an open bug for that anyway
21:57:40 <fizzie> Heh: "/usr/bin/ld: unknown flag: -O1"
21:57:43 <ais523> one annoying thing about that site is it seems to do OS detection
21:57:50 <ais523> so I had to fake my useragent to get the Windows download
21:57:58 <tusho> ais523: well, i can understand why they did that
21:57:59 <AnMaster> does it have support for addons?
21:58:03 <ais523> otherwise it just links to the Linux deveopment plac
21:58:05 <tusho> AnMaster: i don't think so not yet
21:58:08 <tusho> but it's open source
21:58:10 <tusho> = only a matter of time
21:58:12 <AnMaster> so you can create googlecustomise for it
21:58:15 <tusho> and this isn't really a 1.0 release anyway
21:58:28 <AnMaster> removing click tracking and ads from google using their browser would rock
21:58:28 <tusho> ais523: i just used firefox in parallels
21:58:53 <ais523> tusho: now compare it to the blazingly fast speed of C-INTERCAL's INTERCAL-to-C conversion
21:59:01 <tusho> ais523: does that render HTML yet?
21:59:09 <ais523> which is so much faster than the gcc step that runs after it there's no point optimising
21:59:20 <tusho> AnMaster: nothing to do with this
22:00:07 -!- fungOSX has joined.
22:00:20 <fizzie> There's fungot running with cfunge on ppc-32/OS X.
22:00:21 <fungot> fizzie: it's a nice way to remember that? tell me a good number, though? is it php? peice of cake
22:00:30 <tusho> i closed a rickroll tab
22:00:34 <tusho> and the music CONTINUED PLAYING
22:00:38 <fungot> ais523: did you read my article in the kb has character fragments on it which the computer executes. it's intended to implement a ports driver? my current one, looping back to where/ how to start doesn't seem that bad
22:00:41 <fizzie> I don't have the language model files there, so no talking. :p
22:00:47 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:00:54 <ais523> tusho: permanent rickrolls?
22:01:01 <tusho> ais523: bet they did it intentionally
22:01:01 <ais523> is that a new browser feature?
22:01:22 <ais523> tusho: does it happen for anything but rickrolls?
22:01:25 <tusho> "The following page(s) have become unresponsive. You can wait for them to become responsive or kill them.
22:01:25 <optbot> fungot: What's so fucked about it?
22:01:26 <fungot> optbot: i meant the bored thing :) like forcer and riastradh, and lecture him. i didn't download any software. that's just the highscores :p) with the bad decisions.
22:01:27 <fungot> optbot: that's rather strange. looks fine to me
22:01:28 <optbot> fungot: well we have nothing to worry about
22:01:29 <fungot> optbot: or, as liquidengineer might say, i'm a tcler when being serious. and a bad thing... i learn very much from your solution... thanks :)
22:01:29 <optbot> fungot: ~exec sys.stdout( [i[1] for i in inspect.getmembers(self.f) if i[0] == "func_code"][0] )
22:01:30 <fungot> optbot: i'll try to explain with a srfi? the editors were constrained to quite a few!!! fnord! fnord
22:01:31 <optbot> fungot: it can't curry a lambda yet
22:01:38 <tusho> you know the sad macs?
22:01:51 <tusho> right down to the pixelly black-and-white
22:02:10 <Deewiant> the cartoon also said "it really does look like that" OWTTE
22:02:16 <ais523> tusho: oh dear, I'm starting to like Chrome less and less as time goes on
22:02:22 -!- fungOSX has quit (Client Quit).
22:02:26 <tusho> ais523: not a fan of the sad mac?
22:02:43 <tusho> ais523: it's after a tab has been killed due to crashes
22:02:47 <tusho> it's just a tab with a sad face
22:02:52 <tusho> it just happens to be pixelly and black and white
22:02:56 <tusho> and say "Aw, snap!"
22:03:08 <tusho> also a lot of this crap is due to me running it under parallels
22:03:11 <tusho> which is less than perfect.
22:04:16 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host).
22:06:26 <tusho> resizable input widgets
22:06:39 <tusho> nevermore will i have to deal with shitty tiny text areas
22:07:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:09:27 -!- chromeeeee has joined.
22:09:52 <chromeeeee> i am typing to you from mibbit running in google chrome running in parallels running in os x
22:10:05 -!- LinuS has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:10:13 <ais523> hi chromeeeee, presumably you're tusho?
22:10:58 <chromeeeee> To be specific, Ritanj Urban Cherry-On-Top Muller Advertising Campaign Lite-Lite
22:11:21 -!- LinuS has joined.
22:11:42 <ais523> chromeeeee: the other person in this channel from the same IP who talks the same way as you
22:12:54 <oklopol> lament has already banned him many times because of his outrageous behavior
22:13:09 <oklopol> but his brother is an fbi agent, so there's not much we can do
22:13:45 <oklopol> what with all the drugs and prostitution going on @ the esolang wiki
22:14:15 <AnMaster> <fizzie> There's fungot running with cfunge on ppc-32/OS X.
22:14:16 <fungot> AnMaster: ask again?) :) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly.)) the .x. .y. stuff is code that loops over each ip....
22:14:28 <ais523> <fungot> :) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly.
22:14:28 <fungot> ais523: so what's the optimal compression thingy for bf-sc? :) imagine if the state paid for the fnord health, therefore you might now want him to beg?!
22:14:29 <chromeeeee> fungot: you are not a prostitute or a drug
22:14:30 <fungot> chromeeeee: hah perl again
22:14:46 -!- ais523 has changed nick to fungotty.
22:14:51 <fungot> fungotty: using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia
22:15:01 <fungot> optbot: one of the copies in http://www.bloodandcoffee.net/ campbell/ proposals/ optional.text. but before css, the scheme model of efficient and concise elegance wins me over the nose every time i see it
22:15:01 <optbot> fungot: what other things?
22:15:02 <fungot> optbot: waiting at 4am for code to be portable i assume? and the tools fro eopl on a regular basis is firefox.
22:15:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you need to do anything special to make it compile and work?
22:15:03 <fungot> optbot: ah. of course, impossible in any lower scheme) but it looks like it's fairly simple :p
22:15:04 <optbot> fungot: G! {M[m(_f)(Fib)!<20>(_f)(fib).?]}
22:15:04 <fungot> optbot: also tell me if this isn't required to actually mutate the original list? ( cadr expr) is sufficient."
22:15:20 -!- fungotty has changed nick to ais523.
22:15:38 <chromeeeee> ":) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly." "using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia"
22:15:43 <fungot> chromeeeee: now youve failed 365 times.
22:16:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you run mycology under cfunge on PPC?
22:16:07 <ais523> I like fungot's last comment, I thought it was from a human for a moment
22:16:08 <fungot> ais523: is there an irp interpreter in the mini-funge..." you said did it... :)
22:16:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'd love to see the results
22:16:43 <ais523> tusho: chromeeeee's still responding to pings
22:17:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I need to sleep, hope you will tell me tomorrow
22:17:57 <fungot> chromeeeee: i must depart now. i'll fix it.)) the golden ratio" achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer
22:18:10 <tusho> the longest line yet, and the best
22:18:14 <tusho> the whole thing is poetry don't you think ais523?
22:18:28 <oklopol> what are all these "'s and ))'s
22:18:28 <ais523> 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer
22:18:33 <ais523> we should have fungot in #irp
22:18:34 <tusho> it's lamenting on how fast things end (i must depart now)
22:18:34 <fungot> ais523: not exactly scheme, but i didn't had his code and he hadn't died. he was supposed to combine these so that the left and right chunks, would not treat ( foo fnord fnord) are best at fnord fast code by way of combinatory logic, as opposed to
22:18:39 <tusho> and yet how they can continue within ourselves
22:18:40 <ais523> oklopol: fungot isn't very good at punctuation yet
22:18:41 <fungot> ais523: please tell me :) but i guess i left it around here somewhere. i've only skimmed the paper. the web server has been rebooted though the program doesn't
22:18:45 <tusho> and then it has a seperator, ))
22:18:52 <tusho> and we're hit by the next piece of text
22:19:00 <tusho> what could be there?
22:19:03 <tusho> the point is: we can't know.
22:19:06 <tusho> things are fleeting.
22:19:12 <tusho> "achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer"
22:19:21 <tusho> our obsession with achivements, and our illogicalness: 99 to 97?
22:19:24 <tusho> it goes 99, 98, 97
22:19:27 <ais523> someone quotedb this whole conversation for about two screensworth, please
22:19:27 <tusho> but that is mathematics
22:19:35 <tusho> humans are not based on mathematics.
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22:19:40 <tusho> we are illogical, and fungot help us realise this.
22:19:41 <fungot> tusho: well nm then but thx for help :) the number tower is one thing which you might want to sync all possible disks and so on. the scheme system has the best design; however, i'm doing it
22:19:57 <tusho> "well nm then but thx for help :)" the humbleness, denying its own meaning, somehow enrichens the meaning
22:20:06 <tusho> ironically using net speak
22:21:15 <ais523> AnMaster: I have no idea how quotedbs work
22:21:21 <tusho> ais523: you select text
22:21:24 <tusho> then you put it in the box
22:21:28 <tusho> and watch it get rejected.
22:22:03 <ais523> well let's use ESO's quotedb, then
22:22:10 <ais523> that way you can choose not to reject it
22:22:10 <tusho> yes, that bastion of existance
22:22:25 <tusho> exemplifying the best virtues of existance, apart from existence
22:23:12 <ais523> Define an existing unicorn to be a unicorn that exists. By definition, an existing unicorn exists. As some kind of unicorn exists, therefore, at least one unicorn exists.
22:23:24 <tusho> And it's pink and invisible.
22:24:08 <ais523> well in NetHack unicorns can be invisible and still black/grey/white
22:27:44 <oklopol> ais523: where's the logical fallacy in that?
22:29:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Here's everything I did to make it compile: http://zem.fi/~fis/cfunge.diff.txt -- this is gcc-4.0.1 so therefore the -Wfoo flag commenting; linker here is not GNU ld but "Apple Computer, Inc. version cctools-622.5.obj~13" so the linker flags had to go; and the SOCK getaddrinfo usage would make that last change unnecessary.
22:30:06 <tusho> ((in_addr_t)-1) is a wonderful example of C's ambiguity
22:30:13 <tusho> is that a cast or a subtraction
22:30:32 <ais523> tusho: depends on the namespace of in_addr_t
22:30:38 <oklopol> ais523: well i know the answer myself, so no need to answer, since you most likely know more about logic than me :P
22:30:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes FIXME comment is there
22:30:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for linker flags please provide a patch that detects linker
22:31:18 <AnMaster> better even: check if flag is supported
22:31:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: And mycology results: http://zem.fi/~fis/mycology.txt
22:31:26 <tusho> http://code.google.com/chromium/ google chrome source
22:32:17 <AnMaster> btw iirc INADDR_NONE is POSIX?
22:32:47 <fizzie> I don't have my copy of POSIX here on this laptop right now.
22:33:04 <ais523> fizzie: what OS is it running? Windows?
22:33:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, what version of OS X btw?
22:33:39 <ais523> OSX is POSIX, isn't it
22:33:45 <tusho> ais523: and certified unix
22:33:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: It might need some other header, then.
22:34:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: INADDR_NONE is mentioned in the inet_addr man page of this thing.
22:34:12 <ais523> well, Windows didn't fail the UNIX certification tests when it was tested, it's not entirely obvious that it passed either
22:34:22 <tusho> ais523: How on earth did that work?
22:34:44 <ais523> tusho: apparently certain things are allowed to be unimplemented
22:34:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, those are mentioned in my inet_addr man page
22:34:53 <tusho> ais523: But fork is a basic pillar of UNIX!
22:35:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: Same here plus <sys/types.h>.
22:35:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, check if it is in sys/types.h please
22:35:30 <ais523> tusho: well Windows has CreateProcess, doesn't it?
22:35:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, anway I include sys/types.h already too
22:35:36 <tusho> ais523: nowhere near the same thing!
22:35:36 <ais523> that can be used to implement fork eventually
22:35:54 <ais523> and they'd only have needed an implementation that produced the right answers on the testsuite
22:36:14 <fizzie> It's in <netinet/in.h>, actually; I wonder why it didn't see it.
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22:36:55 <tusho> Here is the First Poem of Fungot:
22:36:57 <tusho> [[:) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly.
22:36:57 <tusho> using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia
22:36:57 <tusho> now youve failed 365 times.
22:36:57 <tusho> i must depart now. i'll fix it.)) the golden ratio" achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer
22:36:58 <tusho> well nm then but thx for help :)]]
22:37:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, so that makes no sense
22:37:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ah, it's in <netinet/in.h> but inside a #ifndef _POSIX_C_SOURCE .. #endif block.
22:37:48 <AnMaster> ADD_DEFINITIONS(-D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 -D_XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED)
22:37:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, unless you messed with that too?
22:39:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway since I plan to replace that :)
22:39:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and you need to come up with a way to find what linker flags are ok
22:40:01 <fizzie> I guess they don't think it's POSIX, and therefore want to avoid introducing that identifier if the program requests POSIX compliance. Can't check the standard right now, though.
22:40:02 <AnMaster> I can do it for compiler flags
22:40:14 <AnMaster> there is a command for that in cmake
22:40:15 <fizzie> No, I need to sleep. I'll consider that tomorrow. ->
22:40:42 <AnMaster> tusho, interesting observation
22:40:48 <fizzie> tusho: It's a cultural thing. Being a heathen foreigner, you wouldn't understand.
22:40:50 <tusho> AnMaster: i've observed it before
22:40:53 <tusho> with oklopol and Deewiant
22:40:54 <tusho> but now fizzie too!
22:40:58 <tusho> also, they all use iki.fi
22:41:07 <tusho> and they all act in just about the same way
22:41:24 <AnMaster> tusho, they are the same person
22:41:28 <fizzie> It's because we're all clones. Uh, I mean, nothing.
22:41:33 <tusho> AnMaster: no, there are 2 people in finland
22:41:40 <tusho> i guess they're just really similar.
22:41:45 <tusho> 5 of them are in this channel
22:42:04 <AnMaster> tusho, how many are there in UK and Sweden in your opinion?
22:42:47 <tusho> you'll understand one day
22:42:49 <AnMaster> tusho, the real Sweden is hidden
22:42:57 <tusho> like the swedish language is a hoax?
22:43:05 <tusho> tricksy buggers, you swedes
22:43:06 <AnMaster> tusho, ah no it actually isn't
22:43:08 <tusho> let's ban them all
22:43:09 <tusho> AnMaster: yes it is
22:43:12 <tusho> you talk telepathically
22:43:20 <AnMaster> tusho, not really, we make everyone think it is a hoak
22:43:41 <tusho> what about hoaxologists
22:43:44 <AnMaster> thus we can talk shit about other ppl on IRC
22:44:06 <tusho> AnMaster: people who olog hoaxes
22:44:19 <AnMaster> tusho, hm I'm not familiar with that
22:44:28 <AnMaster> so afraid I can't really answer
22:44:31 <tusho> AnMaster: they're secret
22:44:34 <tusho> they're hoaxes, too
22:44:58 <tusho> for example: ais523 is a hoax
22:45:04 <tusho> but not a hoax if a hoax hoaxes a olog
22:45:09 <tusho> AnMaster: i am an olog
22:45:24 <AnMaster> well I got to say I can't follow you
22:46:09 <tusho> AnMaster: swedes olog hoaxes if they olog hoaxes telepathically with the 5 of the 2 people of sweden in a box that carries the car over there.
22:46:36 <AnMaster> there is a total of five billion
22:46:45 <tusho> AnMaster: no, no, no, they're like finland
22:46:49 <tusho> except their finland is not a UK
22:46:53 <AnMaster> tusho, no that is *another* hoax
22:47:06 <tusho> AnMaster: no, you're a hoax
22:47:08 <tusho> this conversation is a hoax
22:47:11 <tusho> it doesn't really exist.
22:47:13 <AnMaster> tusho, we really pulled the best 1 April joke on the world
22:47:39 <AnMaster> tusho, not sure I can olog it...
22:47:40 <tusho> AnMaster: ah, but the hoax is not believed by the hoaxologists, who olog hoaxes so that finland is ended
22:48:17 <tusho> the very FUNCTION log
22:48:25 <tusho> and a lambda hoax, passed around by finns
22:48:31 <tusho> in their hoax domes
22:48:37 <tusho> where they invent poems and irc bots and ->
22:48:59 <AnMaster> ok as they said in some Monty Python (dead parrot iirc): This sketch is getting too silly
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23:18:26 <tusho> Not IRC bots, unsurely. ->?
23:33:38 <dogface> Who the heck taught me how a rocket works?
23:33:58 <dogface> Quit parodying my surelies. :-P
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12:26:58 <optbot> Mony: and I'm not writing a C library to give continuations to INTERCAL
12:27:29 <optbot> fizzie: i have to sleep now canÄz zype anymore---
12:27:39 <fizzie> Sounds like a lame cop-out to me!
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12:47:25 <tusho> :) smileys fall from the blue sky, sadly.
12:47:26 <tusho> using esc all the time while awake.' wikipedia
12:47:26 <tusho> now youve failed 365 times.
12:47:26 <tusho> i must depart now. i'll fix it.)) the golden ratio" achieved by the shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall! 97 bottles of beer
12:47:26 <tusho> well nm then but thx for help :)
12:50:28 <AnMaster> I don't know of "shortest known 99 bottles of beeron the wall" but I don know the "shortest known 99 bottles of beer on the wall"
12:58:20 <fizzie> "Beeron" could be some sort of artificial beer-like substitute.
12:58:35 <tusho> AnMaster: that's a fungot poem
12:58:36 <fungot> tusho: " code with courage". we're talking about music. referring to itself in the multiple processes it pretends to use in a limited enviroment exported by the module system
12:58:38 <tusho> he recited it yesterday
12:58:44 <tusho> and performances of it shall be regular
12:58:50 <tusho> those first two sentences?
12:58:52 <tusho> start of another poem
12:59:01 <tusho> AnMaster: read yesterday's logs, I deciphered the poem
13:00:35 <tusho> fungot: but the music is how?
13:00:36 <fungot> tusho: to " print" statement should always print to whatever the program's running from??? or fnord?
13:00:45 <tusho> fungot: I think fnord. So, next ilne?
13:00:46 <fungot> tusho: not just any kind of biochemistry... but let's not talk about the subject to begin with, it might be faster to use that and also native compilation or at least
13:01:08 <AnMaster> fungot, how are native compilation and biochemistry?
13:01:08 <tusho> fungot: inspiring. line 3?
13:01:09 <fungot> AnMaster: let's wreak havoc
13:01:09 <fungot> tusho: looking for ' store' microexps, and setting emacs to backup files in a directory that i mentioned is perfect, thanks
13:01:23 <tusho> fungot: Wreak havoc? Alright.
13:01:24 <fungot> tusho: he cooked everything himself and was a pardon issued?
13:01:45 <tusho> fungot: Was it? I don't know.
13:01:46 <fungot> tusho: you asked how to first do a naive translation, but i
13:01:56 <fungot> tusho: no, the mob provides an uzi shield :) there are many of almost equal parts. 0 is 9"
13:02:14 <AnMaster> that is one that sounds like a fnord to me
13:02:31 <tusho> nor am I, but Worms has a weapon called uzi ;)
13:02:36 <AnMaster> fungot, are you saying 0 == 9?
13:02:37 <fungot> AnMaster: the original name was " furor".): the pain of writing your own cocoa bindings ( which is 0) and (
13:02:40 <tusho> fungot: And your last words?
13:02:41 <fungot> tusho: i've found it. thanks.)) the .x. .y. stuff is hard what's wrong with it? not really
13:02:44 <tusho> AnMaster: no, 0 is 9"
13:03:03 <tusho> fungot: so what's 1
13:03:04 <fungot> tusho: rather, above fnord) nonsense?! what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing
13:03:07 <AnMaster> so fungot you mean 0 == 9 inches
13:03:08 <fungot> AnMaster: fnord vm is fnord can only be a few exceptions. so.....you like atlanta?
13:03:25 <AnMaster> fnord vm is fnord heh sounds like a meme
13:03:27 <tusho> that was a beautiful poem
13:03:37 <tusho> fungot is up to date on the memes
13:03:38 <fungot> tusho: that small text would seriously look at plt-scheme servlets? without introducing a *different* lambda.) ack!
13:04:44 <AnMaster> tusho, do you think PHP is an ugly language?
13:05:00 <tusho> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1192465 First collection of the poemular work of fungot.
13:05:01 <fungot> tusho: the latter would show the problem better, rather than interrupt-mask/ all...
13:05:29 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway are any other languages uglier than PHP?
13:06:01 <AnMaster> ah well, I don't know cobol and what I seen of fortran doesn't look that bad
13:06:11 <tusho> well, it's certainly easier to read php code than fortran
13:06:13 <tusho> although I see obfuscated perl as art
13:06:17 <tusho> so I actually see it as pretty
13:06:23 <tusho> but it's ugly in a code way
13:06:35 <tusho> php is less artistically pleasing than fortran, but is way uglier as far as code goes
13:06:42 <tusho> but is way less ugly
13:06:44 <AnMaster> tusho, my question was not about obfuscated code
13:06:53 <AnMaster> you can write obfuscated code in any language I bet
13:07:13 <AnMaster> but I don't think PHP can be pretty at all
13:07:26 <fizzie> Alternatively beerons could be the subatomic particles in beer.
13:08:08 <tusho> AnMaster: PHP & Fortran: Fortran is more pleasing in a "ooh, I set my eye on it and it's lovely" way, PHP is more pleasing in a "OK, this code's purpose is clear & elegant"
13:08:13 <tusho> Of course, neither score very well on either
13:08:28 <AnMaster> I think some of it is due to using $ for variables in PHP
13:08:44 <AnMaster> though not as uggly as PHP normally
13:08:45 <tusho> AnMaster: not really
13:08:46 <fizzie> I often fortran.. uh, I mean, _wonder_ whether there's something fundamentally wrong with PHP, are if it's just that people who write it tend to be... well, you know.
13:08:52 <tusho> cleanly-written perl is very pretty
13:09:10 <tusho> AnMaster: it's that the devs way back in php 3 didn't know shit about how to make a good language
13:09:15 <tusho> they knew what perl looked like
13:09:18 <tusho> and they tried to imitate it
13:09:32 <tusho> and of course the semantics make you have to write ugly syntax to get around them
13:09:37 <AnMaster> issue is I got a course in school which needs using PHP
13:09:47 <tusho> AnMaster: write a something->php compiler
13:10:08 <fizzie> Or a something interpreter in PHP, with the program included.
13:10:40 <fizzie> I once returned a trivial C course assignment as a C brainfuck interpreter, with a brainfuck program included. I think it was automagically graded by some sort of tool, so that was pretty useless.
13:11:19 <AnMaster> what did the tool think of it?
13:11:26 <fizzie> Actually I think the language in question was Scheme, not C, which makes it even less sensible. The tool didn't mind.
13:11:42 <AnMaster> anyway, don't think they would accept that, the course is web design... and php is the language used, also well commented code is mentioned
13:11:57 <tusho> AnMaster: kill your shoe.
13:12:02 <tusho> tell it: get the flu
13:12:09 <tusho> and there you can do.
13:12:14 <tusho> that is the solution
13:12:21 <fizzie> Well, it was the "introduction to programming" course which has a metric ton of students, and those were the weekly exercises. The actual "programming project" was graded by humans.
13:12:22 <AnMaster> I think I can code PHP, I done it a bit a few years ago, but I don't like the language
13:12:32 <tusho> AnMaster: protip if you don't want to kill yourself
13:12:41 <tusho> php.net/function-or-syntax-element-or-whatever gets you to the docs
13:12:51 <tusho> and php is so illogical that you will need the docs every second function call
13:12:59 <tusho> e.g. php.net/explode
13:13:05 <tusho> get you to the right place
13:14:04 <tusho> AnMaster: [[ Although implode() can, for historical reasons, accept its parameters in either order, explode() cannot. You must ensure that the delimiter argument comes before the string argument. ]]
13:14:20 <tusho> implode(" ", array(1,2,3)) and implode(array(1,2,3), " ") both work
13:14:24 <tusho> that is how crazy php is.
13:14:50 <AnMaster> both will result in a string I guess? firefox just crashed so couldn't look at the page
13:14:58 <Deewiant> one could have a language where parameter order is irrelevant
13:15:08 <tusho> Deewiant: smalltalk
13:15:12 <fizzie> Deewiant: Lingua::Romana::Perligata does it.
13:15:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, certainly, named parameters for example
13:15:23 <tusho> AnMaster: however, explode() only takes them in one order
13:15:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's not what I was thinking of
13:15:28 <tusho> and doesn't let you do the other way
13:15:35 <Deewiant> and I guess that applies to smalltalk as well
13:15:49 <tusho> Deewiant: well, smalltalk actually has order
13:15:56 <tusho> (foo bar: x baz: y) is actually
13:16:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you could make sure you could always tell by the type or making functions where it didn't matter
13:16:07 <tusho> call #bar:baz: on foo with (x,y)
13:16:14 <tusho> so yo ucan't do (foo baz: x bar: y)
13:16:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, Perligata uses the Latin declensions to indicate the role of any part of the line.
13:17:15 <fizzie> Okay, admittedly Perligata cheats a bit for function arguments; you need to specify those in order. But the function name and thing-to-assign-the-result-to-if-any and such can be in any order.
13:18:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: return all possible results in a tuple
13:18:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could do stuff like max(x,y) and stuff where the types are different, ie foo(int x, string a), but not stuff like a function pow(x, y) (returning x^y)
13:19:03 <Deewiant> yeah, I guess one could define an order so that you always know which element of the tuple is which result
13:19:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could have a language without functions then claim that "parameter order for functions in this language doesn't matter"
13:19:42 <AnMaster> of course no one could prove it then ;)
13:20:15 <AnMaster> well it would be a nonsense statement
13:20:20 <Deewiant> all (const False) [] is True ;-)
13:20:57 <AnMaster> ah what does that code do then?
13:21:24 <tusho> it calls all with (const False) and [].
13:21:33 <tusho> it calls (call all with (const False)) with [].
13:21:36 <Deewiant> all returns true if the given predicate returns true for all elements of the given list
13:21:53 <AnMaster> I find haskell's syntax unusually cryptic for an outsider, most other languages you probably guess what some basic stuff does if you know other languages from the same paradigm
13:22:07 <tusho> AnMaster: it's very different
13:22:15 <tusho> if you knew ML, haskell wouldn't be too hard
13:22:32 <tusho> haskell is an ML descendent
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13:23:41 <Deewiant> if you know math haskell is trivial :-P
13:23:58 <tusho> but i kind of suck at mathematical notation and such
13:24:04 <tusho> so i know haskell from MLy things
13:28:55 <AnMaster> well I know math, but the notation... well same as tusho
13:29:08 <tusho> i'm not actually all that hot with mathematics ;p
13:29:45 <AnMaster> and well the notation I know.... doesn't really match Haskell at all
13:30:22 <tusho> you just don't know it yet
13:30:34 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> all (const False) [] is True ;-) <-- Don't remember any smiley in my math text books
13:30:46 <AnMaster> in fact nothing like that syntax
13:30:55 <tusho> AnMaster: um, that isn't code
13:30:59 <tusho> "is True ;-)" was in english
13:31:05 <tusho> all (const False) [] was the code
13:31:26 <AnMaster> ok. not sure what it does though
13:31:31 <tusho> specifically the [] part of data [] a = a : [a] | []
13:31:35 <AnMaster> make all elements of a list false?
13:31:48 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> all returns true if the given predicate returns true for all elements of the given list
13:32:26 <tusho> Deewiant: the part where you didn't talk in low-level details
13:32:52 <tusho> Deewiant: quick, explain to him the asm that powers thunks
13:33:17 <tusho> Deewiant: evidently, thunks don't exist
13:34:25 <AnMaster> so.. it returns true if calling a given function on elements in the list returns true for each object?
13:42:46 <AnMaster> well arch is really bleeding edge... GCC 4.3.2 released August 27... It is in stable Arch Linux (not testing) today
13:51:47 <AnMaster> a bit too much bleeding edge there IMO
13:52:08 <fizzie> Phew, that was quite an adventure, copying 30 A4 sheets with the copier here. It was all "open right cover and remove jammed paper", "turn lever", "move unit 2", rotate this know, pull this lever, remove the non-existent jammed paper. Warning: hot surface, do not touch... but open it anyway.
13:53:06 <AnMaster> non-existent jammed paper, that's a new one to me
13:53:20 <fizzie> And it was pretty hot, I could feel the heat at a distance of ~10 cm. The part right next to it that I had to open was made out of some sort of special fuzzy non-heat-conductive material.
13:54:05 <fizzie> One printer I have used had a habit of inventing paper jams that did not really exist; you just had to open and close all openable parts of the printer, then it would resume.
13:57:19 <AnMaster> anyway how does a copier detect paper jams?
13:58:46 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure there are some sort of sensors in there.
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13:59:56 <fizzie> "We've been rotating this drum a while now, but the sensor before it is saying there's a paper present, while the sensor after it says not, and the situation doesn't seem to be changing" => complain.
14:00:26 <fizzie> This is all just speculation, though; it could be that they've stuck little goblins in there to monitor the stuff.
14:00:59 <AnMaster> couldn't you detect it by checking how much current the motors driving the feeder mechanism used?
14:01:32 <AnMaster> probably not a good idea, it would differ between say, normal paper and photo paper
14:02:11 <fizzie> The paper path in that monster of a copier is probably several miles long. Well, not really, but it's still an imposing thing. At least printers are smaller than I am, I don't feel quite so threatened by them.
14:02:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I know my printer got some sort of optical sensor built in, because I see a blue light from inside at the start of every paper, but that goes away if I turn off "auto detect paper type"
14:03:01 <AnMaster> it is also used to check the result during aligning carriages (spelling?) I think
14:03:02 <fizzie> There's a gigabyte or so of memory in that beast, too.
14:03:20 <AnMaster> well mine is a simple multifunction ink printer
14:05:09 <fizzie> We have a small laser printer at home, and I don't think it has ever had a paper jam, but even if it had, there's a single cover to open. That copier has a dozen of little green levers and knobs and whatnot, and the LCD screen in it just keeps running a two-frame animation about manipulating them all, which doesn't really help a whole lot, especially since I constantly have a feeling that if I make one false move, it'll eat my fingers. And collate and stapl
14:05:14 <AnMaster> this printer works very well, from HP. only complaint really is that it is hard to reach inside when changing ink carriages and unjamming paper... the upper part with scanner and such tilt back when you open, except it doesn't tilt a lot.
14:05:22 <AnMaster> other than that it is very good
14:06:07 <fizzie> Auto-stapling copiers are scary anyway. If that thing goes on a rampage, it has a built-in weapon in it.
14:06:28 <fizzie> Fortunately it probably won't fit through the doors.
14:06:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, how did they get it in then?
14:06:53 <fizzie> Maybe they built the building around it.
14:07:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it on street level then?
14:07:26 <fizzie> No, third floor. They must've suspended it in the air with wires or something.
14:07:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it act as printer as well?
14:08:21 <fizzie> Sure. And as a scanner, too; you just use the touchscreen to enter your email address, and it'll send the scans as .tiffs or .pdfs to you.
14:08:35 <AnMaster> I remember seeing some that showed up as a network postscript printer, think it was at one of my parents work place...
14:10:16 <fizzie> I'm not sure whether we have a printer queue for that copier, since there's a rather big HP LaserJet 8150 printer right next to it. But in a previous workplace all "over 100 pages or so" print jobs were recommended to be sent to the copier for printing.
14:10:34 <fizzie> The printer setup dialog had a nifty thing where you could specify which corner of the paper to staple.
14:14:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, how many "heaps" of paper can it staple at once?
14:14:53 <Deewiant> heaps? O(log n) to find the smalles piece of paper?
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14:15:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as in if you specify 5 copies of a bunch of papers, then it feeds each to a different tray and can staple those bunches with one button press or whatever
14:17:12 <fizzie> No clue, really. There's also some sort of upper page count for things to be stapled together, but I don't remember that either.
14:17:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway lets hope the door is thick in case of.... problems...
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14:25:42 <fizzie> It's a glass door... maybe not even velociraptor-proof.
14:26:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is a work safety issue
14:27:03 <fizzie> Well, I'll have to leave (to go buy a fridge/freezer) in ~15 minutes anyway, so the copier won't get me today, at least.
14:28:37 <tusho> i chipped my tooth recently
14:28:50 <tusho> there was some glass covering something but I didn't see it so I just smacked right into it
14:28:51 <fizzie> Bye. Didn't remember to look at the OS X cfunge linker thing, but since I'm theoretically speaking supposed to be working here, maybe it's for the best; will consider it at home later.
14:29:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway why not unplug the copier while fixing the issue+
14:29:18 <AnMaster> I would never try to replace a fan or whatever in a plugged in computer
14:29:22 <fizzie> I don't dare, it could interpret it as an act of aggression.
14:29:32 <fizzie> Besides, I wouldn't see the "helpful" instructions if it were unplugged.
14:30:42 <tusho> i have plugged in ram on a turned-on computer before, I think
14:30:50 <tusho> had to restart, ofc
14:30:55 <tusho> to make it recognize it :P
14:31:41 <fizzie> I have hot-swapped several cards that weren't really meant to be hot-swapped, although it's obviously just stupid. I think some ISA card actually even worked without a restart.
14:32:13 <fizzie> The "let's remove the PCI display card and plug it back in to reset this otherwise unfixable display issue" attempt wasn't as successful.
14:32:33 <tusho> i pretty much think that dying because of hotswapping a computer component and bursting into flame would be pretty awesome
14:32:43 <tusho> so it's not like i'll go out of my way to make sure i hotswap stuff safely
14:33:43 <fizzie> It's significantly more likely to just kill your hardware, not you, which would kind of suck.
14:33:55 <fizzie> Not that I want you dead or anything. No-no.
14:39:28 <AnMaster> but actually I once started a computer with open case, only as far as bios though, needed to find out which of the fans didn't work
14:40:18 <fizzie> I had a computer with no case running as a router on my floor for a year or so. :p
14:40:31 <tusho> I've been paranoid about death for a while now, not really out of any fear, but in that ... what will you guys think?
14:40:33 <AnMaster> oh btw, don't try to hotplug PS/2 keyboards
14:40:36 <tusho> I mean, i'd just not ever come back online.
14:40:45 <tusho> You'd just think I'd "dropped off the face of the internet" as is said.
14:40:59 <fizzie> Then I dropped a coca-cola glass on top of it's hard drive, which broke both of 'em; that's when I resolved to get a case for that box.
14:41:03 <AnMaster> as in computer had just pressed reset button
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14:41:58 <fizzie> Fridge-hunting now. ->
14:42:46 <AnMaster> tusho, think -> means "heading out" or "going afk" or similiar
14:42:55 <tusho> but why do all finns use it
14:44:23 <tusho> google ought to have a search query that returns totally random results
14:44:26 <tusho> same for image search
14:44:39 <tusho> hmm, you could make a game out of the image search
14:44:45 <tusho> a website that presents two totally random google images
14:44:49 <tusho> you pick which one you like best
14:44:53 <tusho> and there are high-scores, etc
14:44:57 <tusho> that would be amusing
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15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=esobot&word2=egobot :( :(.
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16:16:00 <fizzie> That was very efficient.
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16:50:52 <fizzie> A++++ would buy again.
16:51:35 <tusho> fizzie: a a+++++ a a a a.
16:55:55 <fizzie> Has someone been doing some s/\w+/a/g stuff here again?
16:56:24 <fungot> fizzie: not quite sure why you would use car that many times. basically everyone seems to think that i shall never hear a poem frightful as a bear, that keeps pooping primes.
16:57:25 <fizzie> That's a pretty frightful bear indeed.
17:01:19 <tusho> fungot: A new poem, I see. Care to compose it with optbot after this?
17:01:20 <fungot> tusho: ( not straight.). i hope they're not watching.
17:01:21 <optbot> tusho: It's also UNIX-only. Maybe even GNU/Linux-only. :P
17:01:44 <optbot> tusho: btw: 2^3*5^2*11*17*19*31*53*61*101*109*151*181*271*541*811*3001*4051*5779*12301*18451*42391*43201*109441*119611*140401*221401*394201*5020651*15608701*230686501*3467131047901*6641555895901*1114769954367361*1361918785737982855951*11981661982050957053616001*10237949952357183751384463924412751*656996318953349439721732908912325829378630572990405083901
17:01:44 <optbot> fungot: for instance I think you need ^ to swap elements 1 and 3 of the stack
17:01:45 <fungot> optbot: considering only processors still useful today, though not any less flexible... it predates my compiler rewrite. the author must be taking the tfy-0.201 course this autumn.
17:01:46 <optbot> fungot: i'm still improving my assembler
17:01:47 <fungot> optbot: one of them :p, 2) it's ( syntactically) long, and brainfuck command keys
17:01:47 <optbot> fungot: instruction if it is the iterated one
17:01:48 <fungot> optbot: at least if you find some ones in string searching, by any chance?)
17:01:49 <fungot> optbot: heh. i tried saving into one of them is about to execute instruction at ( 1,2), ( 1 2 3 4 5 6
17:02:23 <tusho> fungot: any last words or does it stand for itself?
17:02:24 <fungot> tusho: counting to ten modulo two before punching him? does it involve? doing it the way you would calibrate a normal thermometer. bf
17:02:37 <tusho> ah a new poem's start
17:02:47 <fungot> tusho: sweet. thanks soegaard. i halfway there :) fnord bytes now, i could use a move instruction on the bf program on the phone, and it
17:03:02 <tusho> fungot: Verbose lines these days
17:03:03 <fungot> tusho: but is there a reason to be in normalized syntax is not the
17:03:33 <tusho> fungot: I love your rearrangement of the deconstruction of the syntactical elements - it borders on the legible while still meta-commenting on the meaningless of the elements' structure.
17:03:34 <fungot> tusho: in my head requires conditionals. don't complicate the simple primitive if. cond
17:03:47 <tusho> fungot: I know - great minds do not know what they achieve...
17:03:55 <fizzie> I'm not entirely certain the line-ending algorithm of fungot works; the stuff sounds pretty truncated.
17:03:56 <fungot> fizzie: more simply put: siod sucks as a general purpose language.
17:04:11 <fizzie> Maybe there is a line in the logs that ends "is not the".
17:04:14 <tusho> fungot: The truncation is what powers the self, is it not?
17:04:15 <fungot> tusho: lower species can be that the implementation was just broken. for other stuff, it calls the recursion again and tries to prove what we were about to divide that or so.
17:04:29 <tusho> fungot: Your final ll;ine?
17:04:30 <fungot> tusho: open any scheme source file with an alternative reader for ( a b c d" perl fnord ' print " n".join(s)' line
17:04:54 <fizzie> [2006-12-05 14:12:48] < egal> 13:11 < ELECTR00> losing energy like an idiot is not THE
17:05:09 <tusho> The incorporation of the comparison with programming languages' syntaxes and their relative uniformity as a satire on natural languages is inspired.
17:05:29 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/bSDi5y65.html poemular work of fungot issue 2
17:05:29 <fungot> tusho: my favorite part is " equal")' prints nothing) it doesn't compile. having the language be useable to some extent. it just happens
17:05:33 <tusho> they just keep getting longer lines
17:05:54 <tusho> the latest one is more dense & obscure than the first by a lot.
17:06:07 <tusho> Perhaps a new era in fungot's poemular work is needed? Will it return to minimalism?
17:06:08 <fungot> tusho: the only thing that can't completely be optimized is stuff where a part of scsh is already nearly completely documented, and only if there is any
17:07:37 <fizzie> I can return it to minimalism by decreasing the number used to divide the amount of words already generated when deciding whether to stop or not. But maybe that would be too cruel.
17:08:16 <fizzie> Currently every six generated words increases the stopping probability by .05 or something like that.
17:11:40 <tusho> fizzie: Do it, he must be tweaked!
17:13:59 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel like being less verbose now?
17:13:59 <fungot> fizzie: a pro at that :))
17:15:23 <fizzie> Actually it's .0625, not .5, in the Befunge version. It was easier to throw a d16 with ? than a d20.
17:16:02 <fizzie> (And it's now so that each generated token gives that +.0625.)
17:39:35 <tusho> fungot: Poemular next lin?
17:39:35 <fungot> tusho: yeah, we like such people much more then fnord the syntax if you want
17:39:50 <tusho> fungot: Your new poem sounds like a rap.
17:39:51 <fungot> tusho: taupan i tought that scheme worked with pointers/ references
17:40:02 <tusho> fungot: *scratches record*
17:40:02 <fungot> tusho: later tell bunny_314 we ( velco, forcer and r2q2?
17:40:09 <fungot> tusho: one of my formally fnord questions consists of ordering 25 functions by their asymptotic behaviour. :(
17:40:19 <tusho> fungot: Last line?
17:40:35 <tusho> fizzie: say fungot
17:42:44 <fungot> Deewiant: an hour each time he comes close to something hot.
17:56:50 <AnMaster> anyone know if php handles tail recursion well?
17:57:10 <Deewiant> most imperative language implementations don't
17:57:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I seen some that does
17:58:54 <AnMaster> so now to implement Sieve of Eratosthenes in php (eww) and yes it is for a course in school
17:59:04 <AnMaster> otherwise I wouldn't touch php at all
17:59:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Webdesign + PHP basics
18:00:40 <AnMaster> assignment was "Print all prime numbers in the range 2-100", well iirc sieve of eratosthenes should fit well for that
18:01:05 <tusho> why do you take that ourse
18:01:15 <tusho> although Deewiant++
18:01:35 <Deewiant> and since the range is that tiny
18:01:47 <Deewiant> it's easier to make a primality checker
18:01:58 <AnMaster> tusho, well in Sweden you have to take a set number of hours in total, and that was the least bad course left to select for the last 50 hours
18:02:14 <Deewiant> ++wikipedia: http://www.think-lamp.com/2008/08/sieve-of-eratosthenes-in-php/
18:02:20 <tusho> AnMaster: web design & php course sounds pretty fucking bad to me :)
18:02:39 <tusho> i mean, i love web design and all that but all the courses i've seen have sucked
18:02:44 <tusho> as well as 99% of the tutorials
18:03:30 <tusho> 'regardless of what wikipedia might say :('
18:03:40 <tusho> i think i'll trust wp over your lame blog for algorithmic complexity shizz.
18:04:25 <Deewiant> hee, implementation of NULL is now just `mixin (Fingerprint!("NULL"));'
18:04:40 <tusho> now make it (fingerprint "NULL")
18:04:51 <tusho> or fingerprints NULL = []
18:05:09 <Deewiant> sorry, this is D, I can't improve the syntax
18:05:29 <Deewiant> in a later version of 2.0, or 3.0, I should be able to
18:05:35 <tusho> Deewiant: so don't use d ;)
18:05:46 <tusho> my second example was meant to be haskell
18:06:15 <tusho> data Fingerprint = NULL | ...
18:06:21 <tusho> fingerprints :: Fingerprint -> [(dunno)]
18:06:32 <tusho> ofc, that pattern matching would suck
18:06:37 <tusho> and then it gets less elegant
18:06:43 <Deewiant> we already have a haskell impl
18:06:49 <Deewiant> so might as well stick with D :-P
18:07:43 <tusho> what nice fast language is it unimplemented in...
18:08:08 <tusho> Deewiant: i said nice
18:08:26 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_(programming_language)
18:08:58 <Deewiant> I don't know, what else is nice
18:09:04 <Deewiant> after Haskell nothing seems nice any more :-P
18:09:30 <tusho> Deewiant: i said Charity
18:11:43 <tusho> http://www.ultratechnology.com/scope.htm
18:38:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:41:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I improved my trombute :P.
18:42:49 <oerjan> now to do the same with the troitar and the flugan
18:45:59 <tusho> oerjan: care for the poemular work of fungot, issue 3?
18:45:59 <fungot> tusho: fnord or something
18:46:23 <tusho> fungot: i'm using that as a title for this collection
18:46:23 <fungot> tusho: lets make a spec first anyway... start a game!
18:46:50 <oerjan> fungot: that part about ordering functions by asymptotic behavior sounded painful
18:46:51 <fungot> oerjan: rammstein is far more familiar with inner product spaces than i am
18:47:21 <oerjan> that was eerily topical
18:47:47 <tusho> oerjan: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1192758
18:48:07 <oerjan> fungot: what do you know about hedge funds?
18:48:08 <fungot> oerjan: but it'll be there the next time you mispaste, please use your wonderful powers to get ipv6 to actually happen.
18:49:37 <oerjan> avoiding the question and trying to shuffle work onto me. that is an evil, evil bot
18:51:05 <oerjan> fungot: surely you cannot be serious
18:51:05 <fungot> oerjan: no worries either way, very ingenious.
18:51:24 <tusho> oerjan: i think optbot needs some more love
18:51:51 <optbot> oerjan: i never really believed in that
18:52:23 <Mony> does anyone got a good tutorial about the PE Format ?
18:52:48 <Mony> I found a tutorial about the PE Format in Win 3.1 ...
18:53:01 <AnMaster> how would one go about printing the 100 first primes? Sieve of Eratosthenes is "primes in a range" not the same
18:53:24 <tusho> AnMaster: start at i=0.
18:53:40 <AnMaster> tusho, and then keep going until I found 100 primes hm...
18:53:50 <AnMaster> duh, that I didn't think of that
18:53:58 <tusho> expert programmer. :|
18:54:12 <oerjan> it might be more efficient to use the sieve with an overestimated range
18:54:22 <tusho> oerjan: but also overengineering.
18:54:33 <tusho> it's just for a class assignment
18:54:39 <tusho> this is most likely how they're expecting it to be done
18:54:44 <tusho> even if it's not, it's a better solution
18:55:01 <AnMaster> the class assignment was "find all primes in the range 2-100"
18:55:06 <tusho> cost-benefit ratio would lead to this solution
18:55:10 <tusho> AnMaster: then do the same thing :P
18:55:21 <tusho> for i in 2..100, if prime(i) print i
18:55:23 <AnMaster> while I just happened to wonder "what about the first 100 primes"
18:55:28 <tusho> and the best way to do it
18:55:30 <tusho> for such a tiny range
18:55:40 <tusho> AnMaster: computers can check less than 100 primes very fast, you know
18:55:45 <tusho> the sieve is a waste
18:56:03 <tusho> AnMaster: i'd give more marks for the simple for-loop than the sieve
18:56:11 <tusho> it shows a better way of thinking about the problem
18:56:24 <tusho> i.e. it's simpler to write a for loop and a trivial prime checker
18:56:27 <tusho> for such tiny ranges
18:56:33 <tusho> and thus a better use of time than an all-out sieve
18:56:36 <tusho> which is overblown for the tiny range
18:56:41 <tusho> therefore, I would mark the for-loop higher.
18:56:52 <AnMaster> tusho, function takes upper limit as parameter ;P
18:57:03 <tusho> AnMaster: you're missing the point, as usual
18:57:09 <Deewiant> takeWhile (<=100) primes is pretty
18:57:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is haskell again?
18:57:33 <tusho> AnMaster: I want to know how primes are relevant to webdesign.
18:57:40 <tusho> AnMaster: primes is an infinite list of every prime
18:57:50 <AnMaster> tusho, as I mention above, it was the introduction to php bit of the course
18:57:51 <tusho> takeWhile gives all the elements of a list
18:57:54 <tusho> up to when the predicate fails.
18:58:11 <tusho> Deewiant: there are better ways to irritate AnMaster
18:58:13 <Deewiant> that's the kind of thing that should be figured out and not explained
18:58:27 <Deewiant> I'm not a jerk-ass troll like you :-P
18:58:30 <AnMaster> however first section is introduction to php, for example first one was "convert Fahrenheit to Celsius"
18:58:40 <tusho> yes, but the day AnMaster understands haskell, i'll make a video of me dancing to never gonna give you up
18:58:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: that has the advantage that the other question is just take 100 primes
18:58:43 <tusho> and i'll post it on youtube
18:59:03 <Deewiant> tusho: of course that's a non-statement unless you define "understands haskell"
18:59:11 <Deewiant> I don't understand most of Oleg's stuff
18:59:23 <tusho> Deewiant: understands it as much as me, let's say
18:59:25 <Deewiant> or many of the GHC typesystem extensions
18:59:27 <tusho> (and i'm not very good at haskell)
18:59:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: take n list gives the first n elements of a list
18:59:35 <AnMaster> tusho, I do understand erlang which is also functional, so maybe I'll try haskell later, won't have time to learn it for some time though
18:59:42 <tusho> AnMaster: please don't
18:59:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: please do, let's make him post that video
19:00:06 <tusho> AnMaster: well, do it only when i'm offline
19:00:21 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe at some other random point though
19:00:33 <AnMaster> not the next few months at least
19:01:55 <tusho> fizzie: Could I publish these fungot poems in a book
19:01:56 <fungot> tusho: now let's up them, right? :) ( but why ledit scheme if you squint
19:02:03 <tusho> and an interactive cd
19:03:09 <oerjan> tusho: The Mark ov Poetry?
19:03:10 <AnMaster> tusho, btw google chrome fail at 64-bit currently, a lot would need to be reworked apart from the java script code generation, for example: the GC used
19:03:23 <tusho> AnMaster: what-everrrrrrrrrr
19:03:43 <tusho> AnMaster: that was my demonstration of my lack of caring :D
19:04:14 <AnMaster> tusho, you used up your quota of "r"
19:04:24 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:04:31 <oerjan> more r's means more caring, clearly.
19:04:47 <oklopol> have you heard about the rabbit and the rabbi?
19:04:58 <oerjan> hm except it could be just keyboard repetition
19:05:17 <oklopol> was that an answer to mine?
19:05:27 <oerjan> oklopol: sorry, we are leaving out r's not t's at the moment
19:06:09 <oerjan> although you could tell abbit of the joke
19:06:26 <tusho> http://hideou.se/counter/ is dead
19:06:44 <tusho> oerjan: no, it's alive
19:06:46 <tusho> just not being used
19:06:52 <tusho> AnMaster: nobody is clicking.
19:07:01 <tusho> that shouldn't happen
19:07:04 <tusho> no, the site works fine
19:07:06 <tusho> people have just stopped clicking
19:07:19 <tusho> you wouldn't be able to click very fast if it didn't use JS
19:07:25 <tusho> ah, seems i just spurred him on
19:07:41 <AnMaster> tusho, I can't see myself I noticed
19:07:42 <oklopol> i just clicked because that was linked
19:07:53 <tusho> AnMaster: 'cause you've dropped off the highscores
19:07:57 <oerjan> oklopol: er, what about that rabbi and that lagomorph
19:07:57 <tusho> you're about 1000 behind
19:08:02 <AnMaster> tusho, well how many do I have? exactly
19:08:07 <tusho> AnMaster: 8000 or so
19:08:11 <AnMaster> tusho, you should always show yourself
19:08:35 <tusho> i'd say v4, but since people aren't using it v4 seems unlikely.
19:08:54 <oklopol> people aren't using it because they can't see themselves, methinks
19:09:44 <tusho> oklopol: except the higher-ups aren't clicking
19:09:49 <oklopol> btw i had this idea, dunno if it's any good, you could drop everyones score to half of what it was at the end of every week, and @ every drop, you get a separate point if you're @ the top 5
19:09:53 <tusho> AnMaster: i am not logging in and checking. you are 8000-something
19:09:57 <tusho> at 9002, you will be on the highscores
19:10:14 <tusho> AnMaster: i am not logging in and checking.
19:10:20 <oklopol> tusho: true, coolness would definitely compete if #2 started clicking again
19:10:26 <tusho> AnMaster: have fun
19:10:29 <AnMaster> tusho, then make the webui show it (second time)
19:10:32 <tusho> i am not logging in and checking.
19:10:38 <tusho> or logging in and working on it.
19:10:41 <AnMaster> tusho, then make the webui show it (third time)
19:10:44 <tusho> or logging in and working on it.
19:10:55 <tusho> accept that i will /ignore you
19:11:09 <tusho> i have not /ignored you yet.
19:11:12 <tusho> but if you do bug me i will.
19:11:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: you just need to learn to count carefully :D
19:12:10 <tusho> AnMaster: if you get to 15,000 I will set your score to 9000
19:12:26 <AnMaster> because if I got that far I wouldn't care
19:12:47 <tusho> AnMaster: ok, if you get to 15,000 i'll make your name fade in rainbow colours.
19:13:20 <tusho> oerjan: i'll add a picture of the death star next to him too.
19:13:25 <tusho> or rather, any 16x16 picture he gives.
19:18:07 <AnMaster> tusho, well maybe I'll reach that some day
19:21:50 <oerjan> invented by the ancient romans
19:22:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, did they invent lower case too?
19:22:38 <oerjan> maybe not strictly speaking
19:22:39 <tusho> oerjan: what is your favourite typeface
19:22:59 <oerjan> times roman, 1000 point
19:23:23 <tusho> oerjan: i asked about typeface, not size. though i can't imagine times roman@1000pt is very readable
19:23:29 <oerjan> got to compete with old Trajan there
19:24:54 <tusho> my favourite typeface is arial, or perhaps verdana!
19:25:12 <oerjan> ah there is a trajan font
19:25:13 <AnMaster> Marcus Ulpius Nerva Traianus, commonly known as Trajan (September 18, 53 – August 9, 117), was a Roman Emperor who reigned from 98 until his death in 117. Born Marcus Ulpius Traianus into a nonpatrician family...
19:25:22 <tusho> AnMaster: and see the top line
19:25:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you might want to add 'font' to the google string
19:25:32 <Deewiant> given that that was the topic and all
19:26:08 <tusho> I am sad that nobody mauled me for saying my favourite font was arial or verdana
19:26:18 <tusho> Was it too subtle? Should I have said Comic Sans MS?
19:26:22 <Deewiant> I'll only maul you if... yeah, that.
19:27:13 <oerjan> Deewiant: except i did not mean the font, at first
19:27:41 <oerjan> tusho: what-everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
19:27:55 <tusho> oerjan: I'm glad you care so much thanks :)
19:27:58 <tusho> Remember? More r = more care.
19:28:08 <tusho> You said it yourself.
19:28:10 <AnMaster> I prefer the Bitstream Vera family of fonts
19:28:18 <oerjan> and then i changed my mind, remember?
19:28:19 <AnMaster> for printed I like Computer Modern
19:28:33 <tusho> AnMaster never ever do anything that involves anything like typography ever
19:28:55 <tusho> 'I prefer the Bitstream Vera family of fonts'
19:29:02 <tusho> because that's what i mauled you for.
19:29:06 <AnMaster> tusho, I do use it on IRC and such
19:29:23 <tusho> AnMaster: well, i use monaco 10pt on irc, doesn't mean i consider monaco @ 10pt typographically nice ;)
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19:29:41 <tusho> but from a typeface point of view bitstream vera fonts are pretty crap
19:29:45 <tusho> they're just so bland
19:29:51 <tusho> and the proportions are really weird, to me
19:30:02 <tusho> Deewiant: yea, but it's not bland in a good way
19:30:06 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you think of CM?
19:30:09 <tusho> it's bland in an "oh, bitstream vera. beh"
19:30:22 <tusho> AnMaster: it has a charm, but i'm not a fan
19:30:24 <Deewiant> well, it's a matter of opinion
19:31:49 <tusho> i quite like Univers
19:31:54 <tusho> but not as something to put a book in
19:32:07 <tusho> AnMaster: there are, like, 3 freely-licensed fonts out there.
19:32:14 <tusho> none of them are much good
19:35:15 <AnMaster> tusho, CM, LM, AE, (all variants of CM really, so not fair), Bistream Vera, Courier, Courier New, Utopia and iirc a few more
19:35:28 <tusho> AnMaster: okay, so like 10
19:35:30 <AnMaster> let me check licenses for packages
19:35:53 <tusho> heck, most typefaces predate the very recent idea of "free culture"
19:38:40 <AnMaster> well Utopia isn't open, it is free as in beer only it seems
19:39:00 <AnMaster> provided you include "Copyright (c) 1989 Adobe Systems Incorporated"
19:39:03 <tusho> AnMaster: funny - if you drop the capital from the U there it seems to remain just as true.
19:39:26 <tusho> 'the capital from the U'
19:39:29 <tusho> i.e. it becomes 'u'
19:39:43 <tusho> "well utopia isn't open, it is free as in beer only it seems"
19:42:10 <oklopol> utopia, by definition, does not exist
19:42:59 <tusho> utopia/heaven is a paradox anyway
19:43:08 <tusho> "everything is perfect" sounds awful to me
19:43:22 <tusho> life is great because of all the bad stuff, all the little less-than-perfect thiings, combined with the perfect things
19:43:28 <tusho> everything perfect is just draining and monotonous
19:43:49 * oerjan wants to beat up tusho now to make him happier
19:44:02 <tusho> oerjan: er, not quite :D
19:44:28 <oerjan> and that btw was almost no joke at all
19:44:45 <tusho> oerjan: you disagree with me then? :P
19:45:08 <AnMaster> <tusho> oerjan: er, not quite :D <-- so you aren't into that then?
19:45:13 <tusho> oerjan: wanna advance some arguments? :P
19:45:45 <oerjan> if boredom is possible, then it is not really perfect
19:46:03 <tusho> oerjan: right, but boredom isn't perfect
19:46:08 <tusho> therefore if it is perfect it cannot have boredom
19:46:19 <tusho> ergo nothing is perfect and utopia/heaven cannot exist
19:46:21 <oklopol> it's 5 years since i last was bored
19:46:30 <oklopol> i don't really remember what it feels like
19:46:38 <oklopol> probably just as fun as the rest though
19:47:55 <oerjan> oklopol: you need to write a self-help book for others to learn that :D
19:47:56 <tusho> oklopol: i am going to grep "oklopol" "i'm" "bored"
19:48:03 <tusho> and "oklopol" "i" "am" "bored"
19:48:07 <optbot> tusho: Among other things, Linux 0.1 has a hard-coded keyboard map. . .
19:51:04 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/optbot$ egrep -i "<oklopol>.*i'm.*bored" *
19:51:04 <tusho> 07.11.04:12:54:10 <oklopol> i'm not bored
19:51:05 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/optbot$
19:51:05 <optbot> tusho: how about run-time lazy type checking? :P
19:51:30 <tusho> and nothing for i am bored
19:53:04 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway you forgot oklofok
19:53:10 <oklopol> while you're at it, why not find an occasion of me complaining about the rain
19:53:20 <oklopol> or perhaps that i hate esoteric languages
19:53:40 <tusho> AnMaster: oklokok has never been bored either, now for oklofok
19:54:10 <tusho> not searching /mes
19:54:13 <tusho> cause i can't be arsed
19:55:46 <AnMaster> I tend to rather have too much to do
19:57:08 <oerjan> there can be only one explanation
19:58:01 <oerjan> that's what you want us to think
19:59:45 <AnMaster> I can be bored by doing stuff sure, but never because I got nothing to do
20:00:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: what does that mean?
20:00:12 <fizzie> tusho: I obviously have nothing against a fungot book, but I have no clue whatsoever whether the stuff fungot spews out is some sort of a derived work.
20:00:12 <fungot> fizzie: i understand what u were asking
20:00:24 <tusho> fizzie: fair use probably
20:00:42 <tusho> i guess i'll just make a book with all sorts of non-directed writing
20:00:48 <oerjan> stolen fair and square
20:01:00 <tusho> markov bots, where you write without trying to write anything in particualr ( i forget the term)
20:01:55 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
20:04:35 <oerjan> i was trying not to wonder about that
20:08:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anything new with befunge the last few days?
20:08:02 <oerjan> http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/p%C3%A9ril
20:14:27 <oklopol> yes i sure and totally did
20:14:40 <tusho> oklopol: do you not feel pain
20:14:48 <oklopol> i shall be leaving now, need to read my book
20:14:56 <oklopol> i don't really feel cold though
20:18:09 <fizzie> Robots do not feel pain!
20:18:39 <tusho> does the pain, like, hurt?
20:18:48 <tusho> you don't seem to have the averse reaction that most humans do to it.
20:19:17 <oklopol> it doesn't really hurt when bees sting
20:19:31 <oklopol> and pain isn't usually that bad
20:20:00 <oklopol> unless it's in the eye or the ...belly button, seems i only know the kid term :P
20:20:47 <fizzie> As in, "navel-gazing", an idiom I don't think we have in Finnish. Or do we?
20:21:14 <fizzie> 1. omphaloskepsis, navel-gazing -- (literally, the contemplation of one's navel, which is an idiom usually meaning complacent self-absorption)
20:21:35 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "navankatselu" or something.
20:22:21 <oerjan> well, navlebeskuelse is in norwegian
20:23:08 <oklopol> well people talk about caring only about ones own navel
20:23:18 <oklopol> but i'm not sure there's an actual idiom
20:23:49 <fizzie> The MOT dictionary translates navel-gazing as "omaan napaan tuijottaminen", lit. "staring at one's own navel", but I don't think it's exactly the same thing.
20:24:08 <fizzie> There's a distinct sense of selfishness there.
20:24:26 <oklopol> well i don't know navel-gazing
20:25:42 <oklopol> well that's not really pronounced the same
20:25:50 <oklopol> but if you can fit it in, it would make that better
20:26:08 <oklopol> not that social fish and so selfish are pronounced the same either
20:26:24 <fizzie> It can be if you have "s"-pronunciation trouble, I think.
20:27:07 <oklopol> hmm actually lisp is that other thing i think
20:27:13 <oklopol> godfuck, i really need to read :)
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20:29:08 <AnMaster> <tusho> oh no <-- hey! for once that wasn't directed at me! :D
20:29:27 <fizzie> LITHP is said to be useful in protheththing lithtth. Says the fortune.
20:30:02 <fizzie> Only the part I was directly quoting.
20:30:16 <fizzie> You know you just missed oklopol, right?
20:30:52 <oerjan> we all miss him. it was such a tragedy.
20:31:06 <fizzie> A senseless waste of human life.
20:31:24 <oerjan> imagine, to be drowned in koskenkorva. well it was appropriately finnish at least.
20:33:13 <oerjan> swedes should use absolut instead
20:33:52 <oerjan> jar-jar, you're a genius
20:35:23 <AnMaster> not sure if you got a word for that over there
20:36:01 <tusho> AnMaster: what does that mean?
20:38:44 <fizzie> In Finnish the corresponding word is "absolutisti", and there are lots of bad puns related to that and the "Absolut" brand vodka.
20:39:00 <tusho> fizzie: Absolut-isti
20:39:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, tusho, it means I don't drink alcohol
20:39:32 <tusho> god, you treat me like a preschooler
20:39:41 <oerjan> norwegian: avholdsmann/-kvinne
20:39:48 <tusho> AnMaster: no, but oerjan already said it
20:40:03 <tusho> also just because someone makes a joke -see psygnisfive- doesn't mean they don't understand
20:40:49 <psygnisfive> so whats new in the world of esolangs guys
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20:41:28 <Corun> ¿./$%./..$%$$$/././.$$./././.%%%$$$%$%$%/./.$%/.$%$%$%$$$$$$$$?
20:41:33 <Corun> That could totally be an esolang.
20:41:50 <oerjan> probably another bf clone
20:42:17 <Corun> Yeah, malbolge is totally a bf clone.
20:42:34 <oerjan> theoretically all are, if you just make the cypher complicated enough :D
20:42:44 <psygnisfive> corun: do you understand the meaning of "most"?
20:43:06 <Corun> Do you understand that I was clearly not being serious
20:43:12 <Corun> I'm guessing not :-)
20:43:32 <tusho> Corun: psygnisfive only understands the 'joke with punchline' kind of humour
20:44:05 <psygnisfive> i interpreted what he said as being sarcastic
20:44:07 <tusho> youre not amercian?
20:44:31 <Corun> I was being sarcastic, but I was also not being serious.
20:44:48 <tusho> he was joking with sarcasm
20:44:51 <psygnisfive> i don't see the point of it. was it supposed to be funny?
20:44:55 <tusho> psygnisfive: it was funny
20:45:37 <psygnisfive> if you chuckled because you thought it was a humorous retort against what i said, then it fails, because its not a retort at all.
20:45:51 <tusho> see, you're treating it as sarcasm to make a serious point
20:45:57 <tusho> he was being sarcastic to make a joke
20:46:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh true, there are the quantum ones, and then the banana-scheme or whatever it was called
20:46:44 <AnMaster> what line are you referring to psygnisfive and tusho?
20:46:57 <Corun> My line about malbolge
20:47:07 <tusho> psygnisfive: that is not the comment
20:47:16 <tusho> Corun: see. american. :|
20:47:26 <psygnisfive> "CorunYeah, malbolge is totally a bf clone."
20:47:35 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes, but it was a sarcastic comment
20:47:43 <tusho> and then, it evaluated then inverted
20:47:46 <tusho> to account for sarcasm
20:47:50 <tusho> that statement that you get there
20:48:11 <tusho> that was not the humour
20:48:15 <tusho> the sarcasm was a layer over the humour
20:48:23 <tusho> psygnisfive: the humour was in the statement post-sarcasm processing
20:48:28 <tusho> and yet it wouldn't be funny without the sarcasm
20:48:39 <tusho> now shut the hell up and stop saying "lol i didnt get it lol" over and over again.
20:49:00 <tusho> Corun: can you just explain it to him
20:49:17 <psygnisfive> tusho, you're just an idiot and don't know what the fuck you're laughing about.
20:49:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes, and fuck you do
20:50:33 <oerjan> #esoteric, the channel with TC humor
20:50:55 * tusho is vaguely amused that psygnisfive, faced with something he can't understand, always claims that others are just fools instead of accepting that he was the one who didn't get it
20:51:42 <oerjan> now _that's_ american *ducks*
20:52:06 <fizzie> What, are American ducks somehow different? NURRR so confused.
20:52:07 <psygnisfive> tusho, perhaps the fact that your explanations are vacuous is why i called you an idiot
20:52:10 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> "Corun Yeah, malbolge is totally a bf clone."
20:52:20 <AnMaster> <oerjan> theoretically all are, if you just make the cypher complicated enough :D
20:52:24 <oerjan> fizzie: they come in pairs
20:52:44 <tusho> hmm, I see we are all displaying our talents
20:52:52 <tusho> psygnisfive randomly insulting everyone because he doesn't get something
20:52:56 <tusho> AnMaster missing a joke
20:53:00 <tusho> and oerjan making a terrible joke
20:53:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: i _was_ forgetting the super-TC ones though
20:53:19 <fizzie> I don't have a special talent? :(
20:53:34 <tusho> fizzie: no, as you're generally reasonable.
20:53:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, is Quantum ones super-TC?
20:53:55 <tusho> psygnisfive: you win the prize for 'closest demonstration of point':'when point was said' ratio.
20:53:55 <fizzie> I guess I need some sort of special power now, to fit in here.
20:54:21 <tusho> although i ask, if i'm always such an idiot, why don't you just /ignore me?
20:54:22 <psygnisfive> anmaster: if you ask david deutsch, quantum computers are not more powerful than turing machinese
20:54:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: no, just more space efficient
20:54:57 <tusho> his lack of reply shows that he might have
20:55:30 <psygnisfive> tusho: sorry, i didn't see what you said. i didn't say you're always an idiot, just that you excel at it.
20:56:34 <Corun> It was funny because of multiple reasons. The thought of malbolge being a bf clone is, in itself, slightly amusing. But it wouldn't be properly funny without the sarcasm because the sarcasm makes it appear as though it's a serious point. Except that actually, it's just intended as a joke. Which, also makes it more funny.
20:56:41 <psygnisfive> given that quantum computations occur on more particles in more universes than there are particles in ours, that might be considered slightly inefficient
20:57:20 <psygnisfive> corun: ok. i still don't see how its funny to simply state something that's false as tho it were true.
20:57:35 <Corun> You're not looking at the detail
20:57:40 <Corun> It doesn't work with just any statement
20:57:47 <Corun> You can't apply simple rules to make humour
20:58:24 <Corun> In that exact context, it was funny. But you didn't find it funny cos you took it as a serious statement
20:58:25 <oerjan> ayeeh! the sky is blood-colored! armageddon is at hand!
20:58:29 <psygnisfive> sure but i dont see why its even funny in context
20:58:41 <Corun> And you're not gonna find it funny looking back because the moment is lost
20:59:17 <Corun> Not only is it lost
20:59:20 <Corun> BUT YOU RUINED IT.
20:59:22 <psygnisfive> i just can't even imagine how it might be funny.
20:59:52 <oklopol> can i have a special talent?
21:00:02 <oerjan> oklopol: you're the pervert
21:00:13 <psygnisfive> oklopol is certainly not a pervert, oerjan
21:00:14 <Corun> It's not like, "rofl" funny. But it is kinda "heh" funny. I mean, it's just a slight joke. Ya know.
21:00:41 <psygnisfive> corun: the majority of people i know say "heh" to indicate unfunniness. :P
21:00:55 <psygnisfive> its the small fake laugh you give when someone failed to be funny.
21:00:59 <oerjan> don't pop my prejudices!
21:01:16 <Corun> You're wrong again ;-)
21:01:27 <Corun> No-one says "heh" in actual speach
21:01:37 <Corun> And in IRC it just means a small laugh
21:01:51 <Corun> The people you know suck.
21:02:08 <oklopol> i'm more perverted than psygnisfive, i'm just more shy about it
21:02:14 <fizzie> That's still better than "don't mind if I do".
21:02:36 <Corun> I hope that was a pun
21:02:56 <fizzie> You both need to publish your purity test results, that's a good starting point at least.
21:03:07 <oklopol> psygnisfive: you have no idea about my perversions
21:03:27 <oklopol> and i haven't admitted anything.
21:03:37 <psygnisfive> i want you to admit EVERYTHING! i want to know it all.
21:04:12 <oklopol> reading, if you really wanna, you can be more perverted, i was just trying to make oerjan feel better
21:05:44 <psygnisfive> normally i'd give you marshmallows and hugs but nooooo
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21:42:47 <Deewiant> tusho: closures in objective-C, http://www.macresearch.org/cocoa-scientists-part-xxvii-getting-closure-objective-c
21:42:54 <tusho> Deewiant: yes, seen it
21:43:07 <tusho> my toying about was inspired by that
21:43:16 <tusho> i think my {} syntax is nicer than theirs, though
21:43:24 <tusho> and their type syntax is almost the same as funtion pointers
21:43:28 <tusho> thus still has the problem i mentioned
21:43:34 <tusho> also, theirs are less flexible regarding modifying vars
21:44:29 <psygnisfive> they unfortunately conflate a number of issues in that article.
21:44:36 <psygnisfive> or they atleast dont adequately distinguish them.
21:45:06 <tusho> that;s not the point
21:45:08 <tusho> the feature is what i saw
21:45:22 <oklopol> Last week, Chris Lattner — who manages the Clang, LLVM, and GCC groups at Apple — announced that work was well underway to bring ‘blocks’ to the GCC and Clang compilers. ‘So what?’, I hear you ask, ‘My kid has been using blocks since he was 9 months old.’ Fair point, but maybe not these blocks.
21:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and it's wrong.
21:46:18 <tusho> oklopol: welcome to "shitty programming sites"
21:54:26 <oklopol> i do think there was something magical in "Fair point, but maybe not these blocks.", but otherwise, that was a god-awful joke :)
21:56:51 <tusho> oklopol: it seems that the more theoretical a scientist is the better jokes he makes
21:57:01 <tusho> see: oerjan's terrible puns, his being a mathematician
21:57:53 <psygnisfive> surely you mean theoretical ~ worse jokes then
21:59:03 <tusho> psygnisfive: but oerjan's terrible puns are greart
21:59:08 <tusho> much better than that blocks joke
21:59:14 <tusho> which is on a science site not a mathematics site
22:00:09 <oklopol> well, in books about game-programming you find stuff like "this is a good thing.... NOT!", ai - a modern approach has had like 3 jokes, and i've actually laughed out loud once
22:00:44 <psygnisfive> so then.. oerjans puns arent terrible they're great? D:
22:02:05 <oklopol> terrible and great don't really differ much in meaning
22:02:40 <tusho> oerjan's puns are terrible and great.
22:02:52 <tusho> psygnisfive: you are using logic
22:03:18 <tusho> if you need explaining after reading one...
22:03:30 <psygnisfive> terrible like unfunny painful and stupid, or terrible in the way thats funny?
22:03:40 <tusho> terrible in a "oh god, that joke was awful, ahahaahah"
22:03:48 <tusho> and the "ahahahahahah" bit leads to the "great" bit.
22:04:26 <oklopol> this channel should be more o-ful
22:04:42 <tusho> we were doing an oko tower.
22:05:05 <tusho> fucked up there :D
22:05:20 <tusho> okokokokokokokokoko
22:05:40 <tusho> oklopol invented them on his own, then people started doing them collaboratively.
22:05:42 <tusho> we haven't seen as many lately
22:06:42 <oklopol> i've invented oko *towers* perhaps, but this is not the birthplace of oko, and i'm not the inventor of it
22:07:24 <tusho> oklopol: i imagine it came from #vjn?
22:07:32 <tusho> well, I claim that since #vjn is apparently a finnish place
22:07:34 <oklopol> yes, but no one there really remembers how it started
22:07:36 <tusho> and there are only 2 people in finland
22:07:40 <tusho> that the chances that YOU invented oko
22:07:45 <tusho> as one of the two people in finland
22:07:49 <oklopol> it's more likely coolness invented it.
22:07:51 <tusho> is extraordinarily high.
22:07:55 <oklopol> but we don't know for sure
22:07:55 <tusho> oklopol: you are coolness
22:08:08 <tusho> no ,the other guy is Deewiant & fizzie
22:08:19 <oklopol> sometimes i get confused myself.
22:08:19 <tusho> and the rest of that crowd of #esoteric
22:08:24 <tusho> #vjn is just you, i think
22:08:33 <oklopol> well there's a swedish guy on the chan
22:09:58 <oklopol> vjn basically means me and my friends
22:10:05 <oklopol> although we're a registered group
22:10:11 <tusho> oklopol: all your friends are you, though
22:10:14 <tusho> we've just established that
22:10:19 <tusho> so vjn is a synonym for oklopol.
22:10:20 <oklopol> tusho: that's a bit beside the point
22:10:23 <tusho> oklopol is a registered group.
22:10:28 <tusho> containing: oklopol
22:10:34 <tusho> russel is spinning in his grave
22:10:41 <oklopol> well physically maybe, but it's better to think of my personas as separate people, especially on irc
22:10:55 <tusho> still, oko is a kind of metaphysical spiritual thing
22:11:00 <tusho> so it makes sense to say you invented it
22:11:04 <tusho> even if it was another aspect of you
22:11:07 <oklopol> we discovered an interesting bug in the finnish registered group system
22:11:13 <oklopol> a group can join another group
22:11:25 <oklopol> so it can join itself, as that's not explicitly disallowed
22:11:45 <oklopol> we can immediately see there are all kinds of fun infinite loops
22:12:07 <oklopol> well we were thinking more like making a few more groups, then joining in a chain
22:12:40 <oklopol> i need to watch some stuff ->
22:13:47 <psygnisfive> did russell die before godel proved incompleteness?
22:15:17 <tusho> psygnisfive: dunno
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00:15:08 <oklopol> sleep night tired tired ->
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03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | make sure u add some easter eggs.
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05:28:31 <oklopol> 02:31:30 psygnisfive: i like oklopol is tired, so tusho leaves. <<< what does this sentence?
05:28:44 <oklopol> (sentence was the verb there.)
05:45:36 <fizzie> It sentences you to be liked by psygnisfive.
05:45:44 <fizzie> A fate worse than death, maybe?
05:47:48 <oklopol> quite so indeed very much, yes.
05:48:11 <oklopol> gotta leave, time for some design and analysis of algorithms
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06:47:29 <fizzie> Your interactions, they seem non-progressive.
06:48:27 <oklopol> that was the funniest thing in days
06:49:34 <oklopol> quitting jokes are always funny
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07:03:48 <oerjan> optbot: a veritable programming omelet
07:08:58 <fizzie> Can you make a programming omelette without breaking a few languages?
07:09:16 <oerjan> only, as i implied, by having enough easter eggs
07:10:39 <oerjan> if your languages _are_ your easter eggs, you are probably in trouble
07:12:50 <oerjan> i guess this is one place such trouble is to be expected
07:13:09 <fizzie> For some reason I though it was oklopol you were chatting with.
07:13:30 <oerjan> but we already established oklopol is you
07:13:42 <oerjan> well you did while i was away
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07:25:00 <oklopol> oerjan: nono, fizzie is the other one
07:25:24 <oklopol> not enough languages have easter eggs
07:25:32 <oklopol> well, probably even interpreters
07:29:20 <AnMaster> <oklopol> well there's a swedish guy on the chan
07:29:20 <AnMaster> <oklopol> actually not anymore
07:29:37 <fizzie> There's one in MS's QBasic, apparently.
07:30:12 <oerjan> it must be hard to be a swedish guy in MS's QBasic
07:30:29 <fizzie> Yes, I don't envy him.
07:31:45 <AnMaster> in fact I never ever coded in BASIC
07:32:31 <oerjan> of course not, you just live there
07:32:46 <oerjan> hard to code from the _inside_ of a PL
07:32:56 <AnMaster> I began with AppleScript on OS 7, not with BASIC
07:32:58 <oerjan> unless it is really good at reflection
07:33:19 <oerjan> applescript would be better for a swede, i hear it can be translated
07:34:03 <AnMaster> so must have been someone else
07:34:17 <oerjan> wouldn't you have to understand finnish for that?
07:35:10 <AnMaster> well I don't understand Finnish
07:37:01 <oklopol> also you don't need to know finnish there
07:37:07 <AnMaster> too early in the morning for that
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08:42:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about new thread in t not being moved in F98... Well that depends on at what point you do your "move ip forward":
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09:19:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I assume that PPC you tested on got inet_pton(), right?
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09:44:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, you soon won't need that patch to src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c then
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09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'll do that.
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10:17:55 <Deewiant> 's fairly obvious to me that it's meant to be done such that you execute first
10:18:14 <Deewiant> and you're meant to execute that
10:18:55 <fizzie> Also the spec: "instructions encountered by each IP are dealth with -- and each IP *then* moves as specified"
10:20:07 <fizzie> It sure sounds to me like the new thread should execute that 't'.
10:21:01 <Deewiant> it's not impossible to make useful programs even that way (just p something other than a t on top of the t)
10:21:10 <Deewiant> but I doubt it was the intent anyways
10:21:31 <Deewiant> and I think you'd spawn a minimum of 2 new threads that way
10:21:47 <fizzie> Well, you could have one additional thread doing the 'p'ing.
10:22:36 <fizzie> The one which is executed just after the original thread hitting the 't'.
10:23:11 <fizzie> Would be quite tricky to time it right, though.
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10:26:01 <fizzie> Yes, but if you already earlier have generated the IP to do that p.
10:26:28 <fizzie> So that it executes during the same tick when IP 0 hits the t.
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10:29:07 <Deewiant> yeah, but you need to have hit a t to do that anyway :-)
10:29:23 <fizzie> Yes, but only the first t needs to generate two new threads.
10:29:38 <fizzie> And the "spare" one can then do the 'p'ing for all the rest of the 't's. :p
10:31:48 <fizzie> It's still saner than the "all threads share the common stack" concurrency there was in either Befunge-96 or Funge-97. Although I don't remember where I read that from.
10:40:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, I never seen befunge-96 or funge-97 specs
10:41:22 <fizzie> I can't seem to find them right now either, but I have a strong recollection that somewhere I've seen it mentioned that in concurrent Befunge-96 the stack is shared between threads.
10:44:06 <fizzie> Heh, the only reference I could find right now was #esoteric log for 2004-05-27, where I said the same thing, and didn't remember whether it was '96 or '97 then either.
10:46:56 <fizzie> I guess it is possible I have imagined the whole thing. Maybe it was on the esolang mailing list, I don't know where my archives of that are.
11:06:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, SOCK and the -W flags bit now fixed
11:15:15 <fizzie> Yes, I haven't had the time to look at that yet either.
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12:45:40 <tusho> have you been here as ais523?
12:45:42 <tusho> if so, for how long?
12:45:56 <ais523_> and I wasn't here yesterday
12:46:02 <ais523_> although I didn't spend all yesterday asleep
12:46:14 <ais523_> I spent much of it working on the linker for gcc-bf
12:46:15 <tusho> ais523: so how long has this been here?
12:46:24 <tusho> were you actually here until ais523_ joined?
12:46:30 <tusho> if not, who is ais523
12:46:39 <ais523_> I didn't even notice my nick has changed
12:46:48 <tusho> ais523_: so how long have you been here?
12:46:51 <tusho> since 12:03 at least
12:46:54 <tusho> since that's when I joined :P
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12:47:07 <tusho> i normally beat you these days
12:47:34 <ais523> I decided to come in early, needed to beat a deadline on Agora, and there was lots of noise due to work outside our house anyway
12:48:21 <ais523> incidentally, I think I may be writing the world's first linker that's written in Perl and uses regexen for just about everything
12:48:46 <ais523> also I'm probably the first person who just mapped ar to tar and has .a == .tar.gz for object file libraries
12:49:12 <tusho> ais523: why not just ar
12:49:14 <tusho> ar is just a regular archive format
12:49:19 <tusho> and i dunno why you need gzip
12:49:22 <ais523> tusho: yes, I know, but I'm storing large amounts of text
12:49:26 <ais523> the object files are written in asm
12:49:32 <tusho> that's more esoteric.
12:49:45 <ais523> does .ar have a gunzip and pipe to stdout option, though
12:49:54 <tusho> ais523: pipe to something in /tmp
12:50:04 <tusho> and just do it in two stages
12:50:08 <ais523> tusho: yuck, libc is about 3 megabytes on my system
12:50:17 <ais523> I don't want to create a 3MB temporary file every compile
12:50:22 <tusho> ais523: pipe to /dev/stdout
12:50:27 <tusho> something like /dev/fd/0
12:50:36 <tusho> ais523: then | that
12:50:39 <ais523> and both those names are correct, except stdout is /dev/fd/1
12:50:47 <ais523> stdin is 0 and stderr is 2
12:50:48 <tusho> ah, use /dev/stdout for clearness then
12:50:52 <tusho> (esoteric clearness is amusing)
12:51:02 <ais523> I use /dev/fd/ when golfing because it's 1 char shorter
12:51:43 <ais523> (it's the only way I know to do input in m4, use directives to change the syntax of the language appropriately then use include /dev/fd/0 to include the input)
12:52:56 <ais523> I only need to implement close _execve _exit _fork_r fread fstat fstat64 fwrite getpid isatty kill link lseek open rename sbrk stat strtod unlink write now to get newlib fully working, it can implement the whole of libc in terms of those
12:53:11 <ais523> _fork_r I'll use the DJGPP method I think
12:53:25 <ais523> (although possibly I could write a Brainfork version with genuine forking?)
12:53:41 <tusho> make forking work in brainfuck
12:53:52 <tusho> (for processes A and B just execute instructions as ABABABABAB etc)
12:54:02 <ais523> tusho: that would make things more complicated (although not excessively more complicated) so I'll do it later
12:54:13 <tusho> ais523: yay, i like "I'll do it later"
12:54:15 <ais523> the main problem being that I'd need multiple stacks and multiple sets of registers
12:54:18 <tusho> it signifies that things will be crazier in the future
12:54:21 <ais523> tusho: once I've got the core working
12:54:46 <ais523> hmm... something must be wrong with my newlib dependencies script
12:54:47 <tusho> ais523: well, you've just pwned GregorR in like a fifth of the time
12:55:07 <ais523> I'm reasonably sure it's read/write it needs not fread/fwrite
12:55:14 <tusho> i mean, c2bf took months
12:55:17 <ais523> because it does all the stdio streams stuff itself
12:55:18 <tusho> and can barely do anything
12:55:38 <ais523> tusho: probably more efficient than this, though, stdio overhead is massive
12:56:10 <tusho> ais523: but his was just a syntax layer over bf.
12:56:14 <tusho> it didn't even have stdio
12:56:28 <ais523> well I'm even trying to get setjmp and varargs working
12:56:44 <ais523> if you join #esoteric-blah, I'll paste you my setjmp and longjmp there
12:56:56 <ais523> gcc has __builtin_setjmp and __builtin_longjmp which also work but are slower
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12:58:48 <ais523> ugh, freenode things 96 lines is flooding
12:59:22 <tusho> every good client automatically rate-limits
12:59:44 <ais523> tusho: Konqueror warns instead
12:59:46 <ais523> but it warns even for 2-line pastes
12:59:53 <tusho> itym konversation.
13:00:02 <tusho> but yea it should do both
13:01:18 <tusho> ais523: you are batshit insane
13:02:30 <tusho> ais523: was that purposefully nonsensical?
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13:05:28 <ais523_> ais523 appears to be able to receive messages but not send them atm
13:05:50 <tusho> ais523_: Can you see this?
13:05:52 <ais523_> ais523's sending too, but doesn't seem to be showing up in-channel
13:06:08 <tusho> ais523_: probably because it's flooding #esoteric-blah
13:06:59 <ais523_> oh well, using netcat for a bit is a nice change
13:07:15 <ais523_> how far did ais523 get in #esoteric-blah?
13:07:26 <ais523> I posted the whole of longjmp in #esoteric-blah, anyway, a bit at a time
13:07:38 <ais523> that should give you some idea of what ABI looks like
13:07:54 <ais523> tusho: that took me about 10 minutes to write
13:07:54 <ais523_> yay, ais523's coming through now, just very slowly
13:07:58 <ais523> ABI isn't that hard, it's like writing in PEBBLE
13:08:10 <ais523> I mean, asm looks bad, but it's not that bad when you get used to it
13:08:12 <ais523_> this should give me some record ping times
13:08:14 <ais523> especially if you invented the command-set yourself
13:08:35 <tusho> ais523: here is what i saw
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13:08:56 <tusho> <tusho> ais523: you are batshit insane
13:08:56 <tusho> <ais523> yes, I do
13:08:56 <tusho> <tusho> ais523: was that purposefully nonsensical?
13:09:08 <tusho> your lag results in dada.
13:09:28 <ais523_> wait, you won't have been able to see that
13:09:57 <ais523_> ais523 just said "tusho: that was badly out of sync, I thought I was replying to an entirely different comment"
13:10:07 <tusho> that's why i said lag->data
13:10:49 <ais523_> Freenode should really give some clue as to what a sensible flood rate is...
13:11:16 <tusho> ais523_: your client should adequately ratelimit it
13:11:30 <ais523_> that's annoying, I like Konversation in other ways
13:11:35 <tusho> even colloquy ratelimits
13:11:38 <ais523_> even though it has all sorts of weird quirks
13:11:46 <tusho> ais523_: Perhaps there is a plugin for konversation to do it.
13:12:00 <ais523_> it's nicer to use than chatzilla which I used to use on the SunOS systems here
13:12:13 <ais523_> (anything to get a nice Unix command-set rather than Windows...)
13:12:38 <tusho> ais523_: you do not respond to VERSION
13:13:08 <ais523_> tusho: yes I do, just very slowly
13:13:35 <ais523_> tusho: I wouldn't be surprised if ais523 wasn't responding at the moment
13:14:32 <ais523_> tusho: pinging me every second is annoying, it's hard to type with CTCPs turning up in the middle of what I'm typing
13:14:36 <tusho> ais523_: you oughta respond to my pings
13:14:57 <ais523_> I sent them all in the same CTCP, if your client can't handle that it's its problem
13:15:20 <tusho> ais523_: TIME != PIN
13:15:20 <fizzie> There is the flood-control algorithm of RFC2813; not everyone might do it like that, but it should be reasonably safe if you stay well below that limit.
13:15:26 <tusho> not showing up here
13:15:28 <tusho> ais523_: Is that in the spec?
13:15:38 <ais523_> ais523_ tries to come up with a way to do /ignore using grep
13:15:51 <ais523_> tusho: yes, but nobody handles ctcps except at the start of a line
13:16:24 <ais523_> yay, ais523 just received the pings it sent 11 minutes ago
13:16:30 <ais523> tusho: that was badly out of sync
13:16:34 <ais523> I thought I was replying to an entirely different comment
13:16:51 <ais523_> [13:16] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 776 seconds.
13:17:08 <ais523_> my longest ever genuine ping time!
13:17:26 <ais523_> tusho: I can't tell a CTCP from a /msg over netcat
13:17:35 <ais523_> so I'm treating all your CTCPs like /msgs at the moment
13:17:38 <tusho> ais523_: i'll put CTCP in front of them
13:17:43 <tusho> alternatively: cat -v, dude
13:18:25 <ais523> yay, ais523 is working again
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13:19:14 <tusho> i am going to make a shell client that just seds and greps an nc
13:19:39 <tusho> it'll even do nick highlighting
13:19:44 <ais523_> tusho: that's almost a good idea, responding to pings is the hardest thing to do there
13:20:00 <ais523_> unless you're retyping the pings by hand
13:20:17 <ais523_> on Freenode you can prevent the server pinging you by pinging it proactively, that doesn't work on other networks though
13:20:21 <tusho> i need to call it something which reflects how much it hates you
13:20:39 <tusho> ais523_: yes, that was my joke
13:20:56 <ais523> btw what do you think of setjmp.S and longjmp.S?
13:21:03 <tusho> ais523_: i don't get them
13:21:05 <ais523> I would just use .s but newlib prefers .S for some reason
13:21:27 -!- ais523_ has quit ("have I been connected with this long enough to get a genuine quit message?").
13:22:17 <fizzie> Isn't .S gcc's way of specifying "assembler source but with C preprocessor in front of it"?
13:22:34 <ais523> newlib was using the C preprocessor
13:22:39 <tusho> bastard's slogan will be "fuck goddamn"
13:22:42 <tusho> "bastard: fuck goddamn"
13:23:11 <ais523> cpp would be useful for writing ABI really, it can be very repetitive
13:23:18 <ais523> no mov instruction for register to register you see
13:23:24 <ais523> it's all done with transfer-additions
13:23:36 <ais523> which is basically [->+<]
13:24:27 <tusho> ais523: have you seen my collection of fungot poetry
13:24:28 <fungot> tusho: i have ideas but i am fnord
13:24:37 <ais523> there's one right there!
13:24:43 <ais523> and I haven't seen it collected, no
13:25:11 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1192758
13:25:23 <tusho> you can see the progression there, short, brief poetry to verbose yarns with incredibly long lines that are syntaxless
13:25:28 <tusho> and then a slight return into minimalism
13:25:39 <tusho> fungot's last line suggests his new poetry will be incredibly tiny, one line works
13:25:39 <fungot> tusho: not sure if that makes any sense
13:26:29 <ais523> wait, I thought you said the last line there...
13:26:32 <ais523> not paying much attention
13:26:50 <tusho> "not quite sure why you would use car that many times. basically everyone seems to think that i shall never hear a poem frightful as a bear, that keeps pooping primes."
13:26:52 <tusho> is just brilliance
13:27:00 <ais523> what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing
13:27:07 <ais523> probably my favourite line out of the lot
13:27:48 <tusho> i like "one of my formally fnord questions consists of ordering 25 functions by their asymptotic behaviour. :("
13:27:52 <fizzie> Huh, the prime number pooping bear site has disappeared? :/ It was a Finnish site and everything.
13:28:08 <tusho> fizzie: aw, i was hoping it thought of a bear that poops primes by itself
13:28:17 <ais523> counting to ten modulo two before punching him? <--- if only everyone did that, "I'm going to punch you when I reach ten. 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1..." the world would be a more peaceful place
13:28:18 <tusho> and then decided that a poem can be as frightful as that
13:28:26 <tusho> and how people think that he'd never see a poem as frightful
13:28:36 <tusho> ais523: haha, totally
13:28:48 <fizzie> Nope, there was a website with a picture of a bear, plus a Javascript primality tester, and the prime numbers fell out of the bear's... rear end, you know.
13:28:58 <tusho> fizzie: that is... beautiful
13:29:32 <ais523> I like the asymptotic behaviour quote too though
13:29:42 <tusho> ais523: probably just a verbatim sentence
13:29:44 <ais523> even though it's likely verbatim from /scheme apart from the fnord
13:29:46 <tusho> with one rare word replaced with fnord
13:29:58 <tusho> ais523: /leave scheme /join java
13:30:06 <fizzie> http://informationnation.blogspot.com/2005/01/numbers-up-wazoo.html has a picture of it, but the link is dead.
13:30:17 <ais523> tusho: I already posted that, I'll post it again though because I like it so much
13:30:23 <tusho> ais523: yes, i know
13:30:25 <ais523> <fungot> what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing
13:30:25 <fungot> ais523: it allows sideeffects.
13:30:50 <ais523> fizzie: is it in Wayback?
13:31:13 <tusho> http://web.archive.org/web/20061209081231/http://members.surfeu.fi/kklaine/tpnsb/poopbear.html
13:31:15 <tusho> needs IE, it seems
13:31:31 <tusho> http://www.primenumbershittingbear.com/ is squatted
13:31:35 <ais523> wait, I need 2 support to beh nowadays, don't I?
13:31:41 <ais523> tusho: wtf would someone squat that/
13:31:55 <tusho> ais523: it was registered, apparently
13:32:01 <tusho> bots scan the 'recently expired' list
13:32:04 <tusho> and basically buy all of them
13:32:11 <tusho> then sell them for ridiculous prices
13:32:15 <tusho> thus fucking over anyone who forgets to renew
13:32:36 <tusho> anyway, even though that wayback link is from 2006
13:32:39 <tusho> the news update is from 2003
13:32:44 <tusho> it'll have been squatted for years
13:32:51 <ais523> well, some clever domain name registrar could make millions by registering a huge number of sites to themselves for a couple of days, then putting them on the recently expired list
13:33:02 <ais523> and getting a fortune for all the bots buying from them
13:33:12 <tusho> ais523: probably illegal
13:33:25 <fizzie> I think it ran in at least some firefox version; the archive.org version seems a bit brokened though.
13:35:12 <fizzie> And actually the "asymptotic behaviour" quote was a #esoteric comment by SimonRC in 2006-12-03: the fnord is "assessed".
13:36:51 * ais523 puts a fungot quote in eir sig
13:36:52 <fungot> ais523: but i think there's a simple way of minimizing cache misses otherwise
13:36:55 -!- ais523 has left (?).
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13:37:31 <ais523> probably better take it out again, though, it could offend someone in theory
13:38:00 <ais523> I replaced it with a 99 bottles of beer program
13:38:05 <ais523> written in HQ9+ so it fits in a sig
13:38:27 <tusho> the only people it'd offend are complete prudes
13:38:42 <tusho> fizzie: assessed is surely more common
13:38:46 <ais523> well, I do to some extent, I don't like offending prudes because I may need favours from them later
13:39:18 <ais523> wtf? someone turned one of the reader comments from an MFD comic into a Flash game
13:39:36 <tusho> @logreading prudes: now playing wolfgang amadeus mozart - leck mich im arsch
13:39:39 <fizzie> tusho: Not in my logs:
13:39:41 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~/irclogs$ grep assessed freenode/#esoteric/* freenode/#scheme/* ircnet/#douglasadams/* | wc -l
13:39:55 <ais523> fizzie: 'twill be a lot more than 1 now...
13:40:23 <ais523> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Magenta-Kong.aspx
13:40:25 <fizzie> Well, it _is_ common _now_. That log-place doesn't get updated except by manual rsyncing from the actual host I run my client on every now and then.
13:40:44 <ais523> I don't have Flash installed here because it seems to be the biggest security hole in all 3 major OSs, which is saying something
13:41:04 <fizzie> Now it's 4, so if I ever rebuild that language model again, fungot will have learned a new word. Yay.
13:41:05 <fungot> fizzie: so no exlusive or either. must be all right if i guess that
13:41:07 <tusho> ais523: why would anyone respect mfd like that
13:41:23 <ais523> tusho: bashing MfD has a really strong following nowadays
13:41:29 <tusho> ais523: but that's not bashing
13:41:32 <ais523> the MfD-basher community really churn out some interesting stuff
13:42:00 <tusho> if I ever meet mark bowytz in person...
13:42:22 <ais523> ...and they're allowing text comments on it!
13:42:36 <tusho> pics or it didn't happen
13:42:38 <ais523> knowing Alex I expected em to allow only comments in the form of Flash games
13:43:40 <tusho> [[Sorry folks - no MFD Extra from me today - no way am I going do anything that might steal Matt C.'s spotlight (I know you're all disappointed) ]]
13:43:52 <tusho> you take a nice good holiday
13:44:16 <ais523> anyway MfD is a lot better nowadays than it used to be, which isn't saying much
13:44:54 <ais523> <Google> Note: There is no working Chromium-based browser on Linux. Although many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable.
13:45:14 <ais523> in other words, nothing works except the testsuite, which reports that everything is fine...
13:45:20 <tusho> all the internals work
13:45:24 <tusho> there just isn't a frontend UI
13:45:35 <ais523> yes, I thought it was funnier when I put it that way, though
13:46:08 <tusho> ais523: oh, and they fixed the eula
13:46:12 <tusho> you can try it under wine now.
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13:47:04 <ais523> <Google> You need a JavaScript-capable browser to download this software. Click here for instructions on how to enable JavaScript in your browser.
13:47:05 <tusho> ais523: and yes, the custom window chrome is ugly but they actually had to do it, the default XP chrome didn't let them paint in the right place
13:47:12 <tusho> the vista chrome lets them, though:
13:47:13 <tusho> http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/google_chrome_beta_07.jpg
13:47:15 <tusho> so it looks a lot nicer
13:47:20 <tusho> and apparently os x lets them too
13:47:53 <tusho> ais523: probably for their OS detection code
13:48:42 <ais523> tusho: you can paint outside the client area on Windows, I did it for my decimal clock program
13:48:52 <tusho> ais523: there's some specific reason that i don't know
13:48:52 <ais523> all sorts of weird things break if you aren't careful though
13:48:57 <tusho> but they couldn't get it to work right
13:49:08 <tusho> and i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that google probably know, ais523
13:49:10 <tusho> and there was a problem anyway
13:49:17 <fizzie> Even with Google's superintelligent space monkeys, they couldn't make it work!
13:49:21 <tusho> it seems...likely.
13:49:33 <ais523> tusho: my guess is that's what they are doing, but it overwrites XP's theming and so they have to simulate it themselves
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13:54:39 <ais523> tusho: I didn't agree to the EULA in the end, I read the source of the webpage to see where it downloaded from and just downloaded directly
13:54:55 <tusho> ais523: you've agreed to it anyway
13:55:04 <tusho> all stuff has a clause saying that by downloading & using the software you agree to the eula
13:55:07 <ais523> that was after telling Konqueror to pretend to be IE6 so that I could get at the Windows download
13:55:11 <ais523> tusho: yes but I didn't agree to that clause
13:55:17 <tusho> ais523: it's always outside of the eula
13:55:21 <tusho> in some other area of fineprint
13:55:29 <ais523> tusho: well I didn't agree to that fineprint either
13:55:34 <tusho> ais523: you can't do that
13:55:43 <tusho> they only let you download it on the condition that you accept them
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13:57:27 <tusho> ais523_: mibbit in chrome?
13:57:35 <ais523_> Konversation inside sandbox
13:57:45 <tusho> ais523_: your username and realname is chromewine
13:57:48 <ais523_> I'm not the sort of person who runs random executables with access to everything...
13:58:00 <ais523_> tusho: yes, that's the sandbox name
13:58:13 <ais523_> this has Internet access and not much else
13:58:22 <ais523_> I figured that a browser would want Internet access...
13:58:26 <tusho> ais523_: does it have the neccessary windows libs for chrome...
13:59:56 <ais523_> nah, it doesn't run at all under Wine
14:00:05 <ais523_> Google probably check for that, knowing them
14:00:10 <ais523_> anyway, off to delete the sandbox...
14:00:15 <tusho> it works for some people
14:00:18 <tusho> i've seen screenshots
14:00:21 -!- ais523_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:00:23 <tusho> so they definitely don't check for wine
14:00:27 <tusho> why would they, anyway?
14:00:31 <tusho> i don't see how that's a googley-thing to do
14:00:50 <ais523> because they know it wouldn't work and don't want a massive crash?
14:01:03 <tusho> then how come it works for loads of people
14:01:14 <ais523> probably I have Wine set up wrong for it
14:01:24 <ais523> or they got some separate Windows libraries for it from somewhere
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14:05:53 * tusho the hard part with bastard is making it talk back to nc
14:05:56 <tusho> the hard part with bastard is making it talk back to nc
14:06:31 <ais523> apparently Chrome has 1% of the browser market already
14:06:34 <ais523> which is pretty impressive
14:06:48 <ais523> that means it's beating all of Linux combined...
14:07:56 <ais523> IE7 at 46.8%, IE6 at 25.2%, IE8 at 0.22%
14:08:36 <ais523> Firefox at 19.7%, Safari at 6.4%, Opera at 0.74% are the other ones used often enough to show up on the statistics
14:11:26 <ais523> OK, this is great, apparently the major UI guideline behind Chrome is "Content not chrome", which makes sense, but contradicts their name somewhat...
14:14:22 <ais523> ah, I am still online, occasionally I drop off the Internet and don't notice for hours, still typing random monologues into IRC...
14:14:54 <tusho> ais523: the point is that the web app provides the chrome
14:15:01 <tusho> and the browser stays out of the way
14:15:06 <tusho> so Google Chrome lets you access the "real" chrome
14:15:07 <ais523> I agree with the design principle
14:15:14 <ais523> it's just that the name's a bit ironic....
14:15:17 <tusho> ais523: i'm just explaining how the name is actually fitting
14:15:29 <tusho> they're helping the user see the _real_ chrome
14:15:57 <ais523> such as a page which looks like a normal black-and-white unstyled webpage whose background changes colour when you mouse over the links?
14:17:02 <ais523> hmm... one evil-ish thing Google are doing with Chrome is basing it on a BSD-licenced open-source project and then distributing a binary that's not compiled from the sources they give
14:17:15 <tusho> ais523: how do you know it's not compiled from those sources...
14:17:16 <ais523> which is really annoying to people like me, it makes it so hard to just look at things and fix thigns
14:17:26 <ais523> tusho: well there are changes in it somewhere
14:17:30 <tusho> ais523: how do you know
14:17:31 <ais523> or it would just have the same name
14:17:46 <tusho> google tends to give its oepn source projects different names
14:17:47 <ais523> they could have just changed a few string constants, but given that they're going to all that trouble they probably changed more
14:17:48 <tusho> to the actual products
14:18:04 <tusho> chrome IS built from the chromium sources
14:18:16 <ais523> but with modifications, almost certaibly
14:18:25 <ais523> the chromium sources will be involved somewhere, obviously
14:18:25 <tusho> ais523: eagerly awaiting evidence
14:18:31 <tusho> none given so far, just a blanket assertation
14:18:36 <tusho> currently not believing.
14:18:44 <ais523> I don't know for certain, I just think it's a lot more likely than the alternative
14:18:51 <tusho> what. that they open sourced the browser?
14:19:16 <ais523> tusho: that the non-open-source download with an EULA before you can even download it is exactly the same as an open-sourced BSD version
14:19:30 <ais523> why bother putting an EULA on an entirely open-source browser?
14:19:35 <tusho> ais523: um, firefox 3.
14:20:00 <tusho> http://www.toad.com/gnu/sysadmin/index.html#firefox-eula-sux
14:20:48 <tusho> *CONSPICUOUS SILENCE*
14:20:57 <ais523> tusho: I've never seen an EULA on Firefox, obviously there's one in that tarball
14:21:04 <tusho> ais523: no, there is
14:21:05 <ais523> but why when everyone redistributing it just takes it out?
14:21:09 <tusho> it's just that distros pre-install it
14:21:10 <tusho> so you never see it.
14:21:16 <ais523> tusho: nor agree to it
14:21:19 <ais523> which is the important point here
14:21:20 <tusho> ais523: not the point.
14:21:25 <tusho> "why bother putting an EULA on an entirely open-source browser?"
14:21:26 <ais523> is the point, definitely
14:21:31 <tusho> ergo your argument for it being modified because of that
14:21:50 <ais523> well I think putting one on Firefox 3 is also ridiculous, because anyone could just edit it out
14:21:59 <tusho> ais523: yes, but are you saying that the firefox binaries are modified too?
14:22:09 <tusho> so you have no argument
14:22:23 <ais523> I'm going by name, really, here...
14:22:37 <tusho> yes, because google always do something evil because they are a corporation
14:22:40 <tusho> oh wait...mozilla corporation
14:22:50 <ais523> and I would have a priori suspected Firefox to be modified if it showed me an EULA...
14:23:03 <tusho> ais523: why don't you ask in #chromium?
14:23:08 <tusho> Real chrome developers are in there. Tons of them.
14:23:11 <ais523> interesting idea, presumably it exists by now
14:23:22 <tusho> and all the ops are chrome developers.
14:24:19 <ais523> well I'm there now, reading the FAQ first before I say anything though
14:25:55 <ais523> I learn Web manners on Usenet...
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14:26:55 <ais523> ah, I found Wine's entry on Chrome, there's a lot of magic needed to make it work under Wine
14:27:23 <tusho> ais523: are you going to ask #chromium now?
14:28:35 <ais523> I asked, no response yet
14:28:47 <tusho> you asked 60 seconds ago
14:28:55 <tusho> are you purposefully being impatient?
14:29:00 <ais523> yes, some channels respond instantly but apparently it wasn't one of those
14:29:09 <ais523> I'm just classifying channels by wait length
14:29:13 <tusho> just the copyrighted artwork
14:29:22 <ais523> hmm... so it's a Firefox/Iceweasel-type distinction
14:29:31 <tusho> no, I believe Chromium is built as "Chrome" too
14:29:34 <tusho> just without the icon
14:29:53 <tusho> ais523: of course, it's google. they're probably lying, right
14:29:54 <ais523> tusho: this is the point where we both claim to have been right...
14:29:59 <ais523> and no, I believe that
14:30:10 <ais523> it's just at this point I'm pretty sure we'll both claim the evidence backs up our point of view
14:30:13 <tusho> well, I was right in that no, they haven't done anything evil and changed code
14:30:16 <ais523> so let's just drop the topic here
14:30:17 <tusho> they've just patched in artwork
14:30:22 <tusho> but you're right that there are modifications
14:30:26 <tusho> just not the kind you expected
14:30:28 <ais523> ah, I consider patched-in artwork to be changed code, really
14:30:37 <tusho> and certainly not evil if you ask me
14:30:46 <ais523> I wasn't accusing them of being evil, necessarily
14:31:11 <ais523> BTW there are direct links to the installer all over the place, so it's easy enough to download the code without even knowing it has an EULA...
14:32:04 <ais523> anyway my wine isn't new enough to run it, so I'll just wait for a Linux version for the time being
14:38:53 <tusho> ais523: there is a reddit commenter who is claiming it is completely impossible to hate metallica because you think their music sucks
14:39:03 <tusho> they claim that all the haters just hate them because they hate napster
14:39:09 <tusho> furthermore, they are claiming it with 100% literate english
14:39:14 <tusho> and replying to every single person who argues with them
14:39:21 <tusho> it's half amusing, half pathetic.
14:40:44 <tusho> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/6zg2e/cough_metallica_cough/c05a7rx
14:40:51 <tusho> "Your favorite metal band probably fucking loves Metallica, dickheads. What does your primitive little brain make of that?"
14:41:22 <fungot> ais523: i was just checking
14:41:22 <optbot> ais523: that would just be a one-letter recursive acronym
14:41:40 <ais523> ah yes, one-letter recursive acronyms
14:41:49 <ais523> like the C IAQ claimed that "C" was, probably the best joke in the whole IAQ
14:41:57 <ais523> (which has now gone down, but was good while it lasted)
14:42:21 <tusho> http://www.seebs.net/faqs/c-iaq.html
14:42:27 <ais523> tusho: it's been Wayback-only for years, I though
14:42:33 <tusho> it's been up since forever
14:42:41 <ais523> you mean I've been visiting it on Wayback all these years rather than directly for no reason?
14:48:22 <tusho> ais523: incidentally, the author seems to be a mac user
14:48:32 <ais523> how did you deduce that?
14:48:37 <tusho> ais523: his homepage.
14:48:49 <ais523> I impressed a lecturer once by deducing that he used Emacs from one of his slides
14:48:56 <tusho> ais523: gnu indentation?
14:49:01 <tusho> ais523: http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/ seems to be the dead, wayback-only version
14:49:12 <tusho> ais523: [[ 2002/01/17
14:49:12 <tusho> My programming page has a new version of my utilities package which works on Mac OS X. ]]
14:49:22 <tusho> http://www.seebs.net/log/ has a post from august 21st 2008
14:56:43 <tusho> how did you work it out
14:56:58 <ais523> tusho: indentation, as you guessed
14:57:04 <ais523> nobody indents like that deliberately
14:57:14 <ais523> sorry, I was too busy doing maths on #nethack
14:57:21 <ais523> in response to what was probably a stupid question
15:01:14 <ais523> tusho: incidentally I think cperl-mode does GNU-style indentation too, it's forcing me into one true brace in Perl just to avoid the GNU-style indentation
15:01:23 <ais523> it does one or the other depending on whether you newline before the {
15:01:35 <tusho> ais523: well, you SHOULD one true brace perl
15:01:37 <tusho> that is the convention
15:01:45 <ais523> why, to make it look more like Python?
15:01:50 <tusho> but that's the convention
15:01:56 <tusho> in most well-written perl i've seen
15:02:53 <tusho> "most recently, I switched to Dreamweaver 4, because Adobe seems to have replaced the very helpful staff from GoLive systems (no URL available, they've been destroyed) with a spam-friendly behemoth."
15:06:10 <tusho> bastard needs something like
15:06:25 <tusho> cat /tmp/bastard /dev/stdout | nc "$host" "$port"
15:06:30 <tusho> where it cats them asynchronously
15:06:36 <tusho> then i'd just echo to /tmp/bastard
15:06:58 <tusho> you have to use ctrl-d for tail -f'in /dev/stdout
15:07:09 <ais523> ah, it probably isn't instapiping
15:07:15 <ais523> your problem is pipe buffering I think
15:07:27 <ais523> you could just edit the source code for tail to put a fflush in there
15:07:33 <tusho> I'll need to sed /dev/stdout anyway
15:07:46 <tusho> so i can just do tail -f /tmp/bastard|
15:08:07 <tusho> wish you could do 'sleep forever'
15:08:41 <tusho> that is a busy loop
15:08:44 <ais523> put a sleep in there so as not to busyloop
15:08:50 <ais523> wile true; do; sleep 100; done
15:11:12 <tusho> ais523: you know there should be a program written to abide by the c iaq perfectly
15:11:16 <tusho> that actually works
15:11:46 <ais523> tusho: actually much of the C IAQ does work, if only incidentally, it's deliberately set up like that
15:11:57 <tusho> the point is it'd be crazy
15:13:51 <tusho> www.reddit.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again.
15:17:30 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | TO bomb:.
16:00:00 <tusho> [[Google has withdrawn the offensive EULA language, but why did they put it there in the first place. Money=corruption.]]
16:00:08 <tusho> because it was a direct copy&paste of their EULA for all services
16:00:18 <tusho> which they intentionally try and use for everything to make it simpler for users to grasp
16:00:21 <tusho> it just so happened it wasn't a great idea in this acse.
16:00:25 <tusho> jeez, everything is a conspiracy these days
16:01:01 <ais523> presumably the alternative is calling Google's lawyers incompetent, and it's hard to get people to believe that
16:01:12 <ais523> although I think that this probably was a mistake
16:01:23 <tusho> somehow 'incompetent' is not something i'd attribute to a huge megacorp's lawyers
16:01:27 <tusho> they're very good at what they do...
16:01:41 <tusho> it's just an early beta release
16:01:55 <tusho> and lawyers aren't generally all that good at understanding tech.
16:01:59 <tusho> see: filesharing stuff
16:02:10 <tusho> they probably skimmed it over quickly and decided it was fine without really understanding
16:02:17 <tusho> not incompetence, just a really bad mistake
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16:14:48 * ais523 waits to see if the same thing will happen again
16:14:57 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:15:14 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:15:20 -!- tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:15:30 -!- ais523 has left (?).
16:15:33 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:16:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:16:12 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:16:25 <ais523> btw did tusho_ say hi to me while I wasn't here?
16:16:43 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:17:16 <AnMaster> * tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
16:17:16 <AnMaster> * ais523 (n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk) has left #esoteric ("9")
16:17:16 <AnMaster> * tusho_ (n=tusho@91.105.98.27) has joined #esoteric
16:17:16 <AnMaster> * ais523 (n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk) has joined #esoteric
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16:17:24 <ais523> ok, this is just getting silly
16:17:38 <ais523> clearly tusho_ is some kind of bot, or acting like one to ignore me
16:17:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I think he wants to say hi first every time
16:17:46 <ais523> so I'll /ignore it for the time being
16:17:54 -!- tusho_ has joined.
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16:18:12 <AnMaster> ais523, notice he never quits until you say hi
16:18:21 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I noticed that, that's why I think it's a bot
16:18:24 -!- tusho_ has joined.
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16:18:30 <ais523> the say-hi-first thing got out of hand ages ago
16:18:40 <AnMaster> ais523, so it quits and reconnect?
16:18:43 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should make a bot that says hi to tusho underscore bot
16:19:02 <ais523> Remote closed the connection often happens when a bot quits without /quit
16:19:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I think the non-underscore tusho is timing out
16:19:32 <AnMaster> not sure if he normally ignores pings or not
16:19:53 <ais523> no, normally tusho replies, e doesn't always use the same client though
16:20:00 <ais523> no CTCP version response either
16:20:34 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, should I say hi to him?
16:20:56 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:21:03 <ais523> hmm... maybe write a hibot
16:21:13 <ais523> if bsmnt_bot was here we could train it to say hi to tusho_ whenever it joined
16:21:23 <ais523> I trained it to say hi to everyone who joined once
16:21:24 <AnMaster> ais523, but why doesn't that bot say hi directly when it connects?
16:21:36 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe to give other people a chance to say hi first?
16:21:43 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:21:49 <ais523> that would fit in with tusho's thinking, I think
16:22:01 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:22:19 <ais523> ah, it's being debugged
16:22:26 <ais523> note that the quit message was different this time
16:22:32 <ais523> well, the last two times
16:22:35 <AnMaster> ais523, it was that a few times above
16:22:42 <ais523> race condition on exit?
16:22:44 <AnMaster> ais523, you are missing one fact
16:22:59 <AnMaster> it got a bug with getting wrong quit reasons
16:23:34 <AnMaster> ais523, so on freenode about all you can know is that if there is a quoted reason it is *probably* from the person who quit
16:24:05 <AnMaster> I think it uses errno the wrong way, since sometimes I seen * foo has quit (Success)
16:24:18 <AnMaster> and sometimes * foo has quit ()
16:24:35 <ais523> Errors with the reason as Success happen too often for me to get amused by them nowadays all that much
16:24:45 <AnMaster> ais523, only seen it on freenode
16:24:47 <ais523> last time I was working on some mmap code where they'd changed the API for it
16:25:02 <AnMaster> oh yes I think I saw it on a trunk version of some other ircd, it was fixed pretty quickly
16:25:06 <ais523> and the example code I had had the version test to determine which arguments to pass backwards
16:25:20 <ais523> so it was getting passed memory with the wrong alignment, and erroring out without setting errno
16:25:36 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:25:56 <AnMaster> ais523, um? that was POSIX mmap()?
16:26:23 <ais523> maybe it was a function that returned an argument for mmap whose API changed
16:26:38 <AnMaster> I think C should reflect on error, like befunge :D
16:26:51 <ais523> you mean run backwards on error?
16:26:58 <ais523> at the C level, asm level or machine code level?
16:27:16 <AnMaster> which would be most hilarious?
16:27:28 <AnMaster> 1) a while {} loop would become a do { } while one and vice verse?
16:27:32 <ais523> could be interesting to see what machine code does when run backwards, it wouldn't be pretty on the x86 as it has 3-byte commands, might work better on some other systems
16:27:48 <ais523> asm-level would at least 'work' for certain values of 'work'
16:28:03 <ais523> AnMaster: Perl has that
16:28:08 <AnMaster> basically do { } xxx; for every construct
16:28:12 <ais523> it has lots of control-flow operators, someone even implemented but_first
16:28:26 <ais523> AnMaster: evaluates the condition then if it's true runs the command before it
16:28:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is just like a if with condition after
16:28:47 <ais523> so much like C if with a different syntax, it's just confusing because it has regular if too
16:28:51 <AnMaster> ais523, not like the difference between do while and while
16:28:54 <ais523> it's hard to see what else it could do, though
16:29:03 <ais523> an if which always ran the command at least once would be pointless...
16:29:26 <ais523> but_first is really silly though, clearly it was implemented as an extension by someone messing around rather than being in core
16:29:31 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc x86 got variable width commands?
16:29:51 <AnMaster> there are 1 byte ones and maybe even 4 byte ones
16:30:07 <ais523> I was thinking that reversed 1-byte and 2-byte commands might actually work though
16:30:09 <AnMaster> hm what is the range of a 3 byte integer
16:30:21 <ais523> AnMaster: about the right size, MySQL has them I think
16:30:37 <AnMaster> I asked how many possible 3 byte instructions there are
16:30:48 <ais523> which is a nice range to work with
16:30:48 <AnMaster> since I'm pretty sure I seen a 4 byte one
16:31:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, x86 keeps getting extended processor after processor whilst still having backward compatibility
16:31:11 <AnMaster> ais523, wait some of the bits on 1 byte ones have to be reserved to mean that it is a 2 or 3 byte one
16:31:28 <AnMaster> however as I think I seen 4 byte ones, that means they must have run out of 3 byte ones?
16:31:51 <ais523> seems likely, there aren't too many possible prefix for 3-byte commands
16:32:12 <ais523> and the number of commands multiplies up really quickly when you consider that for instance mov eax, ebx and mov eax, ecx are different commands
16:32:16 <AnMaster> so basically 2 bytes with the first reserved for some value to mean "multibyte"?
16:32:16 <ais523> and there are a lot of registers
16:32:30 <ais523> AnMaster: actually basically 1 byte with some values of the first meaning multibyte
16:32:38 <ais523> and of the 2 byte commands some values of the pair mean multibyte
16:32:40 <AnMaster> ais523, so parameters are encoded in the instructions themselves?
16:33:00 <ais523> AnMaster: register parameters are, as are addressing modes, constants and numerical memory addresses aren't
16:33:02 <AnMaster> ais523, that means you only get like 255 new ones every time
16:33:23 <AnMaster> x86_64 should have tried to clean up that mess
16:33:29 <ais523> AnMaster: well, there's more than one possible prefix to mean multibyte, but it certainly goes to show how they ran out of the mess so quickly
16:33:35 <ais523> AnMaster: have you heard of Itanium?
16:33:42 -!- tusho has joined.
16:33:43 <ais523> it was Intel's attempt to clean up that mess, but never really caught on
16:33:48 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:34:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well VLIW cause other issues
16:34:19 <ais523> I think AMD deliberately kept the mess in their x86_64 so that people would be more likely to migrate to it
16:34:37 <AnMaster> ais523, like being hard to make a good compiler for
16:34:39 -!- tusho has joined.
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16:35:02 <ais523> pity, I wanted to test the regex
16:35:09 <AnMaster> ais523, will let you next time
16:35:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway on VLIW the compiler does the scheduling not the CPU basically
16:35:36 <ais523> yes, I know the theory
16:35:49 <AnMaster> and good scheduling isn't that easy
16:35:55 <ais523> I think gcc can handle it as Linux was ported to Itanium and it must have been compiled with something
16:36:01 <ais523> pretty much nothing else was, though
16:36:11 <AnMaster> and writing pure ASM for Itanium would be hard
16:36:20 <AnMaster> for example in low level part of OS
16:36:25 <ais523> it would be like writing machine code
16:36:29 <AnMaster> to set control registers or such
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16:37:01 <AnMaster> <ais523> it would be like writing machine code
16:37:02 <ais523> so it's probably looking for words
16:37:11 -!- tusho has joined.
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16:37:23 <ais523> AnMaster: no, in asm normally you don't have to know the bit patterns of the instruction
16:37:29 -!- tusho has joined.
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16:37:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well you could handle it like this:
16:37:47 -!- tusho has joined.
16:37:50 <ais523> whereas with asm VLIW there are so many details to set you may as well just write the machine code, and hi tusho
16:37:53 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:38:36 -!- tusho has joined.
16:38:40 <AnMaster> ais523, also GCC could have been cross compiled
16:38:46 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:38:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it's still producing Itanium output though
16:39:01 -!- tusho has joined.
16:39:06 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it is, but it could run on something else
16:39:11 <ais523> whether it's a cross-compiler or not
16:39:15 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:39:36 <ais523> maybe it is a human all along, but I suspect bot, it would be easy enough to write
16:39:41 <AnMaster> lets hope he doesn't get blocked from freenode for reconnecting all the time
16:39:42 -!- tusho has joined.
16:39:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes certainly and hi tusho
16:39:50 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:40:02 <ais523> well, a temporary block might do em good
16:40:06 -!- tusho has joined.
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16:40:24 <AnMaster> however you better join in too ais523
16:40:32 <AnMaster> ais523, or he will blame me ;P
16:40:33 -!- tusho has joined.
16:40:37 <ais523> yes, I keep trying but you keep beating me to it and hi tusho
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16:41:03 <ais523> that was very slow to respond to me
16:41:06 <AnMaster> ais523, "near beginning of line"?
16:41:24 <ais523> seems unlikely unless it's screen-scraping a terminal window
16:41:41 -!- tusho has joined.
16:42:15 <ais523> it's ignoring me I think
16:42:19 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
16:42:21 <ais523> just like I'm ignoring tusho_
16:43:13 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ohsut.
16:43:18 <ohsut> let's see if it works now
16:43:30 <ohsut> actually, probably the real tusho is logreading and tweaking things just to annoy us
16:44:00 <AnMaster> ohsut, well that would be very silly
16:44:17 <ohsut> AnMaster: e wrote a bot once just to repeatedly revert a rule on a nomic
16:44:18 <AnMaster> I mean it would sure make sense if he was afk
16:44:26 -!- tusho has joined.
16:44:33 <ohsut> no, but it's pretty obvious
16:44:46 <ohsut> who else would both have the persistence and care?
16:45:01 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
16:45:11 <ohsut> almost positive it's messing with us now
16:45:18 <ohsut> or has an intermittent bug
16:45:27 -!- ohsut has changed nick to ais523.
16:45:30 <AnMaster> ohsut, was he doing that in the beginning though?
16:45:42 <ais523> again, probably, although the bot's behaviour changes from time to time
16:45:45 <ais523> or is a human acting bot-like
16:45:51 <AnMaster> ais523, lets move the talk elsewhere just to mess with him!
16:45:54 <ais523> humans are very good at pretending to be IRC bots, I find
16:46:12 <ais523> AnMaster: I've almost lost track of what we were talking about...
16:46:46 <AnMaster> it would be like writing machine code
16:46:49 <ais523> not entirely sure if that's a good idea or not, possibly not
16:46:58 <ais523> because it requires so much memory for each command
16:47:08 <ais523> and memory access speed is the bottleneck in many systems nowadays
16:47:22 <AnMaster> yes, it solves a problem P4 had though:
16:47:38 <ais523> yes, the longer the pipelines the worse things get
16:47:56 <AnMaster> ais523, for long pipelines VLIW would actually solve a lot of stuff
16:48:12 -!- tusho has joined.
16:48:16 <AnMaster> however since that is no longer the paradigm...
16:48:23 <AnMaster> ais523, this time lets just ignore tusho
16:48:45 <fungot> ais523: so as not to attract bears." however, i don't see
16:48:56 -!- ais523 has changed nick to tushoops.
16:49:00 <fungot> tushoops: what's readline? and is the only sane thing to happen
16:49:03 <optbot> tushoops: I. . . Um. . .
16:49:04 <fungot> tushoops: it's the first time around
16:49:10 <fungot> tushoops: tcl has a type system!
16:49:10 <optbot> tushoops: hmm... tells the os how to compile the source, like, or=
16:49:20 -!- tushoops has changed nick to ais523.
16:49:33 <ais523> oh well, ignore it then
16:49:46 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
16:49:55 <AnMaster> ais523, VLIW may not be such a bad idea:
16:49:57 <ais523> ah, maybe Freenode's doing the same to it as it was doing to me earlier?
16:50:06 <ais523> forcing ever-longer timeouts due to flooding
16:50:11 <AnMaster> 1) if you can use all the parts in a cycle it saves scheduling
16:50:23 <AnMaster> 2) that means a power consuming part is removed
16:50:51 <ais523> I never really liked hardware scheduling, I preferred either forwarding or a software solution
16:51:04 <AnMaster> and 3) a compiler could potentially do more advanced scheduling not realistic in hardware
16:51:12 <AnMaster> ais523, so you suggest VLIW then?
16:51:13 <ais523> but forwarding gets too complicated when you have a long pipeline
16:51:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I was thinking more about instruction reordering
16:51:41 <ais523> instead of telling the processor how to schedule, you literally do all the scheduling yourself and produce pre-scheduled machine code
16:51:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
16:51:58 <ais523> so if, for instance, jump instructions don't kick in for 3 instructions, you write the jump instruction 3 instructions earlier
16:51:58 <AnMaster> ais523, all modern "PC" CPUs can execute several instructions in parallel
16:52:12 <AnMaster> for example a floating point operation at the same time as a integer addition
16:52:16 <ais523> yes, you would presumably have to allow for that too
16:52:28 <AnMaster> ais523, that is the reason for VLIW
16:52:37 <ais523> but that's not all that hard on processors where certain instructions always operate in certain functional units
16:52:55 <ais523> for instance it's a solved problem by now for the 386 and 387 in parallel, to pick a really old example
16:52:56 <AnMaster> ais523, issue: many CPU got several copies of each functional unit
16:53:13 <ais523> yes, and I don't really know how to deal with that, that's certainly a good reason for trying out something like VLIW
16:53:19 <ais523> but there are good sides and bad sides to it
16:53:36 <AnMaster> yes potential memory waste if you can't use all instructions
16:53:45 <AnMaster> for example if you want to run a nop
16:54:24 <ais523> apart from time delays, ideal programs would never need nops
16:54:34 <ais523> but in practice they're often needed for scheduling or alignment reasons
16:54:43 <ais523> gcc-bf can get away with just deleting all nops
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16:54:53 <AnMaster> there are sometimes reason for them
16:55:01 <ais523> although I think I'll compile them into the word nop in the BF source code if any are generated
16:55:07 <ais523> for instance by __builtin_nop
16:55:17 -!- ais523 has left (?).
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16:55:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also hardware scheduling for functional units can only look ahead a limited amount
16:55:46 <ais523> looks like the bot's finally been fixed, then
16:55:53 <ais523> hi fungot, optbot, tusho
16:55:53 <fungot> ais523: ( define ( macro... not ( define ( printer x list) ( map quote ( list 1
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16:56:09 <AnMaster> ais523, but a compiler could look ahead the whole function
16:56:22 <ais523> trying to do scheduling in hardware is just crazy, really
16:56:27 <AnMaster> so in *theory* VLIW could produce better code
16:56:43 <AnMaster> what if the next generation of the CPU adds an additional functional unit
16:56:51 <AnMaster> then you need to change all programs
16:57:05 <AnMaster> to be able to schedule for that unit too
16:57:06 <ais523> hmm... maybe the ideal solution would be to generate a separate machine-code program for each processor
16:57:18 <ais523> a clever compiler could rely on the clock speeds to know that everything stayed in sync
16:57:23 <ais523> make the asm pretty hard to write though
16:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it means the compiler must know the details of this exact cpu revision
16:58:04 <AnMaster> it means it is harder to add new stuff
16:58:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but it pretty much has to anyway
16:58:33 <AnMaster> ais523, you can compile generic "modern x86" code that will run well on both AMD and Intel CPUs
16:58:52 <AnMaster> and most apps don't need that extra speed gained by specific CPU
16:59:15 <AnMaster> I mean it is all nice and so, but is it really worth it for, say, a text editor
16:59:16 <ais523> yes, but as a programmer I don't see why a processor design that forces everything to be compiled from source is a problem
16:59:29 <ais523> if you don't need the speed then write an x86 emulator and run on that
16:59:52 <AnMaster> ais523, CPUs change very fast, think GCC could keep supporting the last or would lag behind?
17:00:21 <ais523> I reckon it could keep up if the redesigns weren't too large
17:00:22 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you could have versioned instructions
17:00:40 <ais523> it's easy enough to port it from one CPU to a CPU similar to it
17:01:25 <AnMaster> <first n bytes: revision of machine code><APU 1><APU 2>...<APU n><FPU 1><FPU 2>...
17:01:35 <AnMaster> probably a horrible idea I admit
17:02:13 <AnMaster> ais523, probably should have revision of revision number in case we run out of reserved bits for it and need to extend it ;)
17:02:39 <ais523> AnMaster: this is pretty much the mess with x86 instructions at the moment, unfortunately...
17:03:04 <ais523> x86 machine language is arguably a joke
17:03:06 <AnMaster> anyway yes breaking backward compatibility sometimes is a good idea
17:03:31 <AnMaster> maybe you could add a control register with a legacy flag
17:03:43 <AnMaster> to support the 1 or 2 last incompatible versions
17:03:52 <AnMaster> that OSes could set for specific processes
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17:04:26 <AnMaster> suddenly everyone would be demanding open source or their stuff wouldn't work any longer
17:04:47 <ais523> yes, it would certainly be adopted a lot more if processors didn't work on closed-source stuff
17:05:01 <AnMaster> lets sell this idea, err I mean GPL it to, this to RMS
17:05:30 <ais523> arguably processor design would proceed a lot faster if it didn't have to worry about working on closed-source stuff
17:06:16 <ais523> maybe processors could have a stripped-down C compiler in ROM so that you could run source-code directly, to avoid problems with installing an OS on the computer in the first place
17:06:50 <AnMaster> and what if that C compiler had a bug?
17:07:01 <AnMaster> ais523, no I think that may work very badly
17:07:06 <ais523> AnMaster: suppose you want to distribute a LiveCD, what sort of binary do you put on it?
17:07:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it worked back in the days of BBC BASIC
17:07:36 <AnMaster> there would be like a hundred different downloads
17:07:57 <AnMaster> or it would be a massively bloated 10 dvd set
17:08:05 <AnMaster> considering some OSes are almost that already
17:08:40 <ais523> A full set of Debian designed for all possible processors would be pretty massive
17:08:58 <AnMaster> well you could have stripped down netintalls
17:09:23 <ais523> hmm... you could have a second processor for downloading the binary of your OS
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17:09:36 <ais523> some computers are getting that already for websurfing etc. on Linux without waiting for Windows to load
17:09:52 <ais523> normally with ARM as the second processor and some x86 or x86 as the main one
17:10:10 <AnMaster> ais523, there should probably be some basic boot mode, so you could do like one netinstall cd with maybe 5-10 different CPUs on
17:10:11 <ais523> you can load the computer up on the second processor for basic web-browsing, or on the first one to use the full speed of the computer
17:10:15 <AnMaster> then just enough for boot loader
17:10:15 <ais523> the second one loads a lot faster
17:10:51 <ais523> still more sense if you have a simple common processor language ro bootstrap things
17:10:59 <ais523> doesn't really matter what, you could even use brainfuck I suppose
17:11:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well hard to handle should there be a bug in that
17:11:21 <ais523> AnMaster: a bug in a BF interp?
17:11:44 <ais523> those things should be possible to prove correct mathematically
17:11:46 <AnMaster> no I assumed something anyone like a serious OS developer would use :P
17:11:59 <ais523> I was trying to pick the most portable machine code I knew
17:12:03 <ais523> which is surely brainfuck
17:13:07 <AnMaster> 1) probably they used just enough rom/ram for the compiler, right? to save money 2) so someone find a bug, fix would grow the stuff in the rom with maybe 20 bytes... 3) there are only 10 bytes free (they rounded it up to nearest kb limit
17:13:19 <AnMaster> just can see that happening...
17:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you would have to write the whole OS in that then?
17:13:55 <ais523> AnMaster: well you should see the sort of programs that CPU manufacturers ship to flash their microcode
17:14:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I know such exist, but I never seem them
17:14:12 <ais523> luckily I haven't seen any from personal experience
17:14:20 <ais523> but one was an ActiveX browser control that only worked in IE
17:14:35 <ais523> and the other only ran on genuine MS-DOS, it wouldn't even work under Windows' emulation of it
17:14:39 <AnMaster> ais523, an user space process shouldn't have the needed access
17:14:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well I done bios flashing using PC-DOS floppy
17:14:59 <ais523> AnMaster: well that's what I thought, it at least explains the MS-DOS for the second one
17:15:15 <ais523> but as a browser control, that's really worrying
17:15:57 <AnMaster> on windows 9x IE could have the needed access
17:16:04 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea, this is second-hand so I'm repeating what I know but don't know the details
17:16:43 <AnMaster> ais523, for intel microcode I think it doesn't stay after reboot, it reverts to the old state, so you have to load it at every boot
17:16:52 <AnMaster> support exists under linux at least
17:17:05 <ais523> well there's 915resolution which patches the BIOS every boot
17:17:07 <AnMaster> and some user space tool run as root
17:17:23 <ais523> means I can't hibernate because if I do I get an unpatched BIOS when it resumes from hibernation
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17:18:00 <AnMaster> ais523, also I assume that "915resolution" whatever it is runs at every reboot?
17:18:01 <ais523> AnMaster: allows an Intel 915 graphics card to handle screen resolutions higher than 1024x768
17:18:15 <ais523> it's a service, at runlevel 3 or so
17:18:29 <AnMaster> then you could make it rerun after resume
17:18:32 <ais523> presumably there's something similar buried in the code of Windows somewhere
17:18:35 <AnMaster> logically it should be possible
17:18:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I assumed so, but never bothered to find out how
17:19:01 <ais523> I suspect it needs to run before the computer tries to switch into graphics mode
17:19:19 <AnMaster> at run level 3 that would already have happened I think?
17:19:51 <ais523> so it can switch into graphics mode first
17:20:02 <ais523> usplash runs at 1024x768 for that reason, I think
17:20:29 <AnMaster> well I don't like boot splashes
17:20:46 <ais523> Ubuntu has one by default, and I can always control-alt-F1 to get rid of it
17:21:04 <ais523> at which point all the text scrolls by on terminal 1 rather than the usplash
17:21:19 <ais523> which just shows a progress bar except when fscking
17:21:27 <AnMaster> ais523, you run ubuntu? I thought it was debian?
17:21:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's pretty hard to tell from outside, but this is Ubuntu
17:22:08 <AnMaster> well I mean I thought you said it was debian before
17:22:09 <ais523> many of the programs claim to be Debian though because Ubuntu never ported them
17:22:22 <ais523> and I have used Debian systems in the past, not for IRC though I don't think
17:22:40 <ais523> recompiled with different version info
17:22:46 <AnMaster> GNU bash, version 3.2.33(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
17:23:04 <AnMaster> ais523, where would it say debian
17:23:05 <ais523> hmm... that doesn't list distro, I suppose it doesn't need to
17:23:23 <AnMaster> [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.25-gentoo-r7-1 (root@tux.lan) (gcc version 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020)) (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.1)) #2 Sun Aug 3 13:19:47 CEST 2008
17:23:26 <ais523> AnMaster: Apache's error page seems to know
17:23:36 <AnMaster> that says... because I use gentoo patchset
17:23:58 <AnMaster> I guess their patchset is large enough there
17:24:02 <ais523> ah, my gcc knows it's Ubuntu
17:24:16 <AnMaster> ais523, however most non-gcc/binutils/kernel stuff seems to ignore distro
17:24:43 <pikhq> Unless the distro has a fairly significant patchset, of course.
17:25:02 <ais523> well, I can hardly imagine them editing the C-INTERCAL source to specify that it's Debian in a version string somewhere
17:25:05 <AnMaster> well my package manager seems to know ;)
17:25:14 -!- tusho has joined.
17:25:19 <ais523> package managers need to know which repo to access, and hi tusho
17:25:20 <AnMaster> and some other gentoo made apps
17:25:27 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:25:36 <ais523> buggy or rate-limited or both
17:25:41 <ais523> it's probably what happened to me earlier
17:25:50 <ais523> where pings took over 10 minutes at one point
17:25:55 -!- tusho has joined.
17:25:56 <ais523> I pasted a lot of text in #esoteric-blah
17:26:13 <ais523> and as a result messages I sent were delayed about 10 minutes
17:26:38 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:26:41 <ais523> so it's possible that tusho's current actions have nothing to do with what we're saying at the time
17:26:42 <AnMaster> in fact lets get lament to kick him
17:26:48 <ais523> AnMaster: I tried, but lament wasn't online
17:27:01 <ais523> also it would need to be a temporary ban, kicking doesn't really work against someone who keeps parting anyway
17:27:03 -!- tusho has joined.
17:27:06 <AnMaster> ais523, um the current actions... well after a reconnect any rate limit would be reset
17:27:21 <AnMaster> ais523, s/temporary/permanent/
17:27:37 <ais523> by "temporary" I meant "remove the ban after a bit"
17:28:05 <AnMaster> ais523, well I didn't mean that ;)
17:28:12 <ais523> and how do you know that Freenode isn't experimenting with a rate limit that works across connections as an antispam method?
17:28:16 <ais523> it seems in-character for them
17:28:27 <AnMaster> /usr/bin $ grep -li Gentoo * | wc -l <-- still waiting
17:29:17 <ais523> optbot often does, it seems that half the stuff said in #esoteric would make sense in just about any context
17:29:18 <optbot> ais523: um? short circut operators? isn't that the default in C?
17:29:26 <ais523> otoh fungot often makes much less sense
17:29:27 <fungot> ais523: it would be just
17:30:03 <AnMaster> ais523, yes... so they cancel each other out
17:30:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
17:30:28 <AnMaster> that is number of matching files
17:30:36 <AnMaster> I'm waiting for number of non-matching ones
17:31:19 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I think a lot will match because GCC puts a .comment section in with GCC version, and the GCC version strings contain "gentoo" here
17:31:39 <AnMaster> it would be a lot more interesting without that .comment section
17:31:39 <ais523> AnMaster: how many of the /usr/bin executables will have been stripped on your system
17:31:49 <ais523> I expect most of them, probably?
17:31:54 <ais523> would that remove the comment?
17:32:16 <AnMaster> so nm would still make sense I guess
17:32:23 <AnMaster> grep: ear: No such file or directory
17:32:29 <AnMaster> as for ear it is a borken symlink
17:32:38 <AnMaster> to an erlang tool that has been deprecated
17:32:48 <AnMaster> -L means "list files without matches"
17:33:01 <AnMaster> anyway I filed a bug about package installing that symlink
17:33:17 <AnMaster> the interesting part here is that I got so many binaries
17:33:19 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm trying the same test over here, in /usr/bin and searching for Ubuntu
17:33:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean over 3300 binaries in /usr/bin
17:33:36 <ais523> wow, and I have a lot of broken symlinks in /usr/bin...
17:33:44 <ais523> AnMaster: as a comparison
17:33:50 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and that doesn't include KDE, KDE is in /usr/kde/3.5/bin
17:34:00 <AnMaster> How the heck over 3300 binaries?
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17:34:37 <AnMaster> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-ld or x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-c++-3.4.6
17:34:49 <ais523> AnMaster: some programs like git install all their possible command-line options as symlinks I think
17:35:03 <AnMaster> wonder how many non-symlink ones there are
17:35:04 <ais523> heh, you can install BusyBox and only have one non-symlink command in /usr/bin...
17:35:37 <ais523> but that's only really worthwhile on embedded systems, and even then they normally need something besides POSIX shell commands
17:35:55 <ais523> BusyBox was invented to create recovery floppy disks for Debian, that's why it has dpkg
17:36:14 <AnMaster> tux /usr/bin # find . -type f | wc -l
17:36:16 <ais523> ...and I think tusho is lagging, even though #freenode say they haven't changed the code recently
17:36:28 <AnMaster> ais523, * Ping reply from tusho: 0.72 second(s)
17:36:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I have 201 binaries in /usr/bin that mention Ubuntu
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17:36:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I have almost 3000 non-symlink ones
17:37:05 <ais523> and 5885 files there total
17:37:13 <AnMaster> sure a few are wrapper scripts, like the autoconf for different autoconf versions
17:37:21 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and freenode's ircd suck, including their throttle code, it handles bursts badly
17:37:36 <ais523> wow, that's a lot of symlinks...
17:38:02 <AnMaster> ais523, which is why I'm usually lagged for like one and a half minute while my client autojoin lots of channels
17:38:05 <ais523> no wait, symlinks are 'l' are they?
17:38:21 <ais523> I have 2584 f and 358 l
17:38:23 <ais523> so what are the others?
17:38:29 <ais523> files with embedded newlines?
17:39:14 <ais523> AnMaster: wait, I don't have 5885 total
17:39:14 <AnMaster> ais523, at least arch put /usr/bin/perl-<version> for some misc perl binaries like perldoc and such
17:39:20 <ais523> I only have 2942 total now
17:39:28 <ais523> so why did I get a high result earlier?
17:39:34 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I probably messed up a command
17:39:37 <AnMaster> ais523, check what command you typed
17:40:16 <ais523> AnMaster: ls -1 means don't sort into multiple columns
17:40:26 <ais523> I think it's the default anyway when not outputting to tty
17:40:29 <AnMaster> what has that got to do with anything?
17:40:36 <ais523> ls -1 * returns higher than ls -1
17:40:41 <ais523> because it lses all the subdirs too
17:40:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you have subdirs in /usr/bin?
17:41:21 <AnMaster> ais523, unless a symlink is to a directory
17:41:23 <ais523> I have 2584 regular files, 358 symlinks, and one type 't'
17:41:34 <ais523> hmm... what does that mean, a t in the file type field?
17:42:00 <ais523> ah, it's the first letter of "total 381419"
17:42:09 <ais523> which I forgot to cut out from the result...
17:43:00 <ais523> AnMaster: total size, probably in KB
17:43:13 <ais523> no /dev files have any size because they aren't regular files
17:44:34 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Aug 26 10:58 /dev/XOR -> null
17:46:18 <AnMaster> ais523, no I don't think he is lagged or whatever, just messing with us
17:46:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:46:40 <AnMaster> a troll would act much more interesting
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17:47:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you see last?
17:47:12 <AnMaster> <ais523> no /dev files have any size because they aren't regular files
17:47:43 <ais523> and I only said one line after that
17:47:45 <ais523> /dev files use up no space apart from the inode itself, I think
17:48:19 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/BsFSnT48.html
17:50:22 <AnMaster> ais523, care to comment on that odd XOR device?
17:50:25 <ais523> sorry, here, just distracted
17:50:40 <AnMaster> ais523, <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/BsFSnT48.html
17:51:12 <ais523> and if it's just linked to /dev/null, why?
17:52:49 <AnMaster> 50-udev-default.rules:KERNEL=="null", SYMLINK+="XOR"
17:54:00 <AnMaster> ais523, this is so odd I should probably track down the udev rules maintainer and ask
17:57:42 * oerjan wonders if /dev/AND and /dev/OR exist
17:58:09 <AnMaster> ais523, for malloc() and free() to work it means the implementation have to internally keep track of how large the block is right?
17:58:20 <AnMaster> so why doesn't the C standard add some routine to query that
17:58:38 <AnMaster> to me that sounds like it could be useful and the info would already have to be tracked anyway
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18:03:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm wait here it's /dev/X0R, not XOR
18:03:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, huh? what distro? Gentoo here
18:03:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, but it is definitely XOR here
18:04:02 <ais523> ok, this is getting even weirder
18:04:20 <ais523> AnMaster: DOS has malloc and free as syscalls, and there's no way within the DOS protocol to get at the internal size
18:04:31 <oerjan> i don't know it's NVG's server
18:04:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it still needs to track it so?
18:05:08 <ais523> AnMaster: well, that may be one reason the C standard doesn't specify a way to track, because on some OSs the malloc and free won't tell you
18:05:09 <AnMaster> wait you mean they did it for DOS compatibility?
18:05:23 <ais523> AnMaster: C89 has everything compatibility, it even restricts filenames to 6.1
18:05:31 <ais523> which is even more ridiculous than 8.3
18:05:34 <AnMaster> also /dev/XOR exists on Arch Linux too
18:05:51 <ais523> AnMaster: minimum needed for the C header files
18:05:59 <ais523> it seems that on some Acorn OS, even that wasn't enough
18:06:10 <ais523> the C compiler on that system maps stdio.h to h/stdio
18:06:17 <ais523> that is a directory called h with a file named stdio on it
18:06:22 <ais523> the standard allows that sort of thing
18:06:31 <ais523> ridiculous filename restrictions, though
18:06:39 <AnMaster> ais523, oh yes that sounds familiar, they do filenames that way
18:07:12 <ais523> so the name makes sense
18:07:13 <AnMaster> ais523, !Befunge would iirc be a directory somewhat like the "packages" on OS X I think
18:07:18 <ais523> I thought it was some sort of C programming joke
18:07:40 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS is the same iirc
18:08:46 <AnMaster> "Proprietary ADFS filesystem - The OS uses meta-data to determine file type; file extensions are not used. Colons are used to separate the filesystem from the rest of the path; the root is represented by a dollar ($) sign and directories by a period (.). Extensions from foreign filesystems are shown using a forward slash ('example.txt' becomes 'example/txt'). For example, ADFS::HardDisc4.$. is the roo
18:08:47 <AnMaster> t of HardDisc4 using the ADFS filesystem. This system gives support for filesystems other than ADFS."
18:14:50 <oerjan> "but at least it explains it" sounds like a punchline
18:15:14 <oerjan> thus, this must be a joke
18:16:45 <oerjan> it _could_ be, if we are actually in a sitcom or webcomic
18:16:58 <oerjan> (a very nerdy one, so probably the latter)
18:18:38 <oerjan> is it a bad thing to realize you are being http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy in real life? (Warning: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)
18:20:33 <oerjan> (also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy)
18:21:25 <tusho> do you think I should have actually scripted that oh no stuff
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18:23:02 <oerjan> we will never know, as we have already forgotten the context
18:23:18 <tusho> no I doubt ais523 has forgotten the context
18:23:22 <tusho> although I bet they are ignoring me
18:24:13 <tusho> just lost the game
18:25:51 <oerjan> YES THEY HAVE, i have hypnotized them to forget everything i have not been told about
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18:27:27 <tusho> ^echo unignore me kthx -tusho
18:27:28 <fungot> unignore me kthx -tusho unignore me kthx -tusho
18:27:53 <ais523> tusho: I never actually had you on ignore
18:27:59 <ais523> I think I still have tusho_ on ignore though
18:28:01 <tusho> ais523: anmaster likely does
18:28:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I never had you on ignore either
18:28:35 <oerjan> ^echo why the doubling?
18:28:36 <fungot> why the doubling? why the doubling?
18:28:56 <tusho> AnMaster: you're the one who went "wtf" the first time
18:28:56 <ais523> not on Windows it doesn't
18:29:01 <tusho> now you're acting all "duh" :)
18:29:08 <tusho> ais523: your os choice does not change the laws of sound
18:29:13 <AnMaster> tusho, yes because I thought of it in terms of shell scripts
18:29:20 <tusho> AnMaster: that's the joke, obviously
18:29:48 <ais523> tusho: echo says back to you what you said to it on Windows
18:29:49 <AnMaster> ais523, hm let me see if I remember...
18:29:52 <ais523> unless the argument is on or off
18:29:57 <tusho> ais523: yes, i know
18:30:08 <ais523> AnMaster: echo on and echo off control the settings of the sell instead
18:30:18 <AnMaster> ais523, so how did you print the actual string "off"?
18:30:24 <ais523> AnMaster: with difficulty
18:30:25 <tusho> oerjan: we'd need two fungot's for that
18:30:30 <tusho> put fungotty in here
18:30:31 <fungot> tusho: and the only place where it used to
18:30:39 <ais523> probably echo "off " would pretty much work on modern Windows, DOS was rubbish at quoting though
18:30:48 <tusho> AnMaster: yes you are
18:30:58 <AnMaster> ais523, ah but they have windows power shell now
18:31:09 <ais523> AnMaster: that's weird, I haven't used it but I've heard it's object-oriented
18:31:13 <ais523> and not very like ordinary shellss
18:31:15 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and it wouldn't work, since they would run out after a few iterations
18:31:33 <tusho> AnMaster: make it use ^, then.
18:31:35 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I haven't tried it either
18:31:42 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't want them to collide
18:31:49 <optbot> AnMaster: #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors.
18:31:55 <ais523> AnMaster: when there's an Underload-bot in a channel it's normally reasonably easy to set up a loop whatever the characters if there's one other bot
18:32:09 <AnMaster> tusho, can you find the context of optbot's last comment?
18:32:15 <AnMaster> I'm just wondering wtf that was about
18:32:20 <tusho> AnMaster: probably when people were being perverted in here
18:32:24 <tusho> and someone told them to go to #perverted
18:32:45 <ais523> actually, I guess that someone was discussing the name #esoteric
18:32:50 <tusho> but channels auto-vivify.
18:32:51 <ais523> and someone pointed out that it was preferable to #perverted
18:33:04 <AnMaster> I know they are created on demand
18:33:11 <tusho> 05.07.22:00:31:04 <fizzie> #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors.
18:33:18 <AnMaster> ais523, what would be wrong with #esoteric?
18:33:25 <tusho> 00:22:46 --- join: msingh (~msingh@203-59-177-150.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined #esoteric
18:33:25 <tusho> 00:23:00 <msingh> is this the channel for perverts?
18:33:33 <tusho> 00:25:11 <fizzie> Only if you think esoteric programming languages are perverse.
18:33:33 <tusho> 00:25:59 <msingh> right
18:33:33 <tusho> 00:26:03 <msingh> and i think thats reasonable
18:33:34 <tusho> 00:28:28 <fizzie> "marked by a disposition to oppose and contradict", "resistant to guidance or discipline", "marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good"; I guess that does apply.
18:33:34 <tusho> 00:29:49 <BigZaphod> maybe perverted programming language would have been a better term. plus it has a cool acronym: ppl
18:33:36 <tusho> 00:30:36 <msingh> hmm no point denying it though, we are talking about perverts
18:33:38 <tusho> 00:31:04 <fizzie> #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors.
18:33:41 <tusho> 00:31:18 <BigZaphod> fizzie: heh, good point.
18:33:42 <tusho> 00:31:37 <msingh> :)
18:33:53 <ais523> well, where did the name "esoteric programming languages" COME FROM?
18:34:02 <tusho> ais523: DO COME FROM .3
18:34:24 <AnMaster> ais523, what happens if you write it in lower case in intercal?
18:34:26 <ais523> tusho: don't do that, it would mess with the system library too easily
18:34:30 <ais523> AnMaster: syntax error nowadays
18:34:49 <tusho> ais523: what would it do
18:34:53 <ais523> there's a compile-time flag in C-INTERCAL that controls case-sensitivity, but as far as I know nobody set it to insensitive
18:35:01 <ais523> and I think INTERCAL-72 was invented before lowercase was
18:35:25 <ais523> or at least before it became common
18:35:43 <ais523> ALGOL-68 had a pragma to tell it to use nonstandard case-based stropping
18:35:44 <tusho> ais523: what, you mean outside of computers?
18:35:46 <tusho> that would be cool
18:35:50 <tusho> everyone would be shouting all the time
18:35:56 <tusho> in everyday conversation
18:35:57 <ais523> nonstandard because many computers couldn't manage case distinctions
18:36:42 <ais523> and ALGOL-68 was only 4 years before INTERCAL-72
18:37:25 <oerjan> tusho: the ancient romans, you could always hear coming
18:37:36 <tusho> think of the children...
18:39:10 <tusho> perhaps #perverted is a better name.
18:40:25 <oerjan> we _do_ get the occasional rare magick enthusiast in here
18:40:40 <tusho> oerjan: did you miss my joke
18:40:43 <tusho> or was it too terrible to comment on
18:40:54 <tusho> and yea, i remember that guy looking for an actual esoteric thing
18:40:58 <tusho> i tried to turn him the way of science but no!
18:41:10 <tusho> how did oerjan miss a Terrible Pun
18:41:41 <oerjan> i was too preoccupied with my Yoda grammar
18:50:00 <AnMaster> hm... why is it that C didn't think of using the $ for anything?
18:53:45 <fizzie> $ is often legal in symbol names, maybe they didn't want to conflict with that.
18:54:00 <fizzie> At least GNU as allows $ on most targets, I think.
18:54:26 <fizzie> Not that standard C variables could have $s, but still.
18:55:41 <fizzie> Alternatively maybe they were COMMUNISTS and didn't want to use the "big money" character.
19:02:24 <Deewiant> there's a lot in ASCII that C doesn't use
19:03:21 <ais523> fizzie: yes, gcc allows $ in variable names without -ansi (or maybe without -pedantic)
19:03:32 <ais523> asm allows both . and $ in identifiers though
19:03:46 <ais523> (normally compilers use . in asm identifiers to guarantee they're unique from user-code identifiers)
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19:21:01 <tusho> ais523: http://lifehacker.com/5045136/google-chromes-aboutinternets-easter-egg
19:21:09 <tusho> aww, no screenshot
19:21:25 <ais523> tusho: does about:mozilla do anything in Chrome
19:21:29 <ais523> it was special-cased in IE, after all
19:21:43 <ais523> and obviously it's special-cased in Firefox
19:22:00 <tusho> ais523: http://howtogeek.com/ss/2008-09-03_1949.png
19:22:30 <ais523> about:% has also been doing the rounds recently
19:22:36 <ais523> it's one of the easiest ways to crash Chrome
19:22:39 <ais523> and can be linked from a webpage
19:22:48 <ais523> so link that crashes the browser, straight off
19:22:56 <tusho> apparently %: crashes it too
19:23:04 <ais523> tusho: did you just try that?
19:23:21 <ais523> hmm... % is SQL for what sh calls *, isn't it?
19:23:33 <ais523> no idea if that's relevant
19:23:41 <tusho> it's just a random character
19:24:43 <ais523> do other random characters crash it?
19:25:43 <Deewiant> or no, it has to be at least two digits evidently
19:25:56 <ais523> Chrome does a Google search on anything that doesn't look like a URL, I hardly ever use Google so I find the Firefox 3 address bar more useful
19:26:11 <tusho> why do you hardly ever use google?
19:26:16 <tusho> do you prefer yahoo? :P
19:26:17 <ais523> (I know because sometimes I forget to press down before return then it does a Google search)
19:26:33 <ais523> tusho: web search engines aren't as good as finding what I want then knowing people who know where to find what I want
19:26:35 <Deewiant> do you just keep a 365-day history? :-P
19:26:44 <tusho> Deewiant: my history is infinite
19:26:54 <ais523> and normally I'm visiting the same websites I've visited earlier, rather than looking for new ones
19:27:03 <Deewiant> my history is cleared when the browser closes
19:27:07 <ais523> also Wikipedia tends to be better for finding an organisation's website then Google does
19:27:23 <ais523> but yes, I keep infinite history and search through it with the 'awesomebar' normally (stupid name)
19:27:35 <tusho> awesomebar is an awesome name
19:29:56 <tusho> The RFCs say that a personal site should be at name.me.country
19:30:07 <tusho> But I've already stated my anti-tying-yourself-to-your-country sentiment, etc.
19:30:11 <tusho> I wonder what I should use?
19:30:14 <tusho> I was going to use tusho.org.
19:30:19 <tusho> But i'm not really an organization.
19:30:27 <tusho> (Eww. .name is ugly.)
19:30:38 <tusho> .me is for some random place but is being marketed for personal websites, etc.
19:30:44 <tusho> Perhaps I should get tusho.me
19:30:50 <ais523> tie yourself to an obviously incorrect country, or preferably an invalid one
19:30:51 <tusho> that is a complete abuse of the .info domain
19:30:58 <ais523> so it's equally wrong no matter which domain
19:31:00 <tusho> ais523: as you can see i'm going for correctness here
19:31:47 <tusho> Deewiant: but... http://tusho.name/
19:32:08 <tusho> tusho@tusho.name is even uglier
19:32:19 <oerjan> clearly you want to get rich and shell out for the tusho toplevel domain
19:32:26 <tusho> as we've discussed
19:32:31 <oerjan> which may soon be possible
19:32:35 <ais523> tusho: valid, you can have no characters before the @
19:32:40 <ais523> just most mailers don't understand it
19:32:45 <tusho> oerjan: it's over 100k.
19:33:10 <ais523> Deewiant: you can even have nested comments in email addresses
19:33:19 <tusho> ais523: fizzie looked it up
19:33:22 <tusho> you need something before the @
19:33:28 <Deewiant> ais523: yes, that I did know :-)
19:33:45 <tusho> also, it'd fuck up address validators
19:33:54 <Deewiant> address validators already don't understand shit
19:33:57 <ais523> most address validators are wrong, they can't handle nested comments
19:34:09 <Deewiant> but basic stuff like plus addressing
19:34:41 <tusho> i want something i can actually use.
19:34:49 <Deewiant> address validators are a piece of shit and should die
19:35:00 <tusho> Deewiant: so's your face.
19:35:09 <ais523> Deewiant: what about an RFC-based address validator?
19:35:49 <Deewiant> the only one I know of is that infamous perl regex and I'm not sure if it's been proven correct
19:36:10 <ais523> Deewiant: if it isn't recursive, it's wrong
19:36:27 <ais523> and only very recent versions of Perl can do recursive regexen without helper variables
19:36:40 <Deewiant> and I suppose these are deployed and actually in use as well
19:37:29 <Deewiant> but I have yet to see any which even claims to validate according to the whole RFC, let alone does it
19:37:38 <tusho> that's because you haven't looked hard enough
19:37:39 <Deewiant> but it does mean they aren't widespread
19:37:50 <tusho> every perl programmer searches cpan
19:37:55 <tusho> therefore, amongst perl programmers, they are widespread
19:38:07 <tusho> then you'd be wrong
19:38:07 <ais523> hmm, maybe Deewiant agrees with me rather than tusho about CPAN
19:38:18 <Deewiant> and hoorays, widespread among perl programmers
19:38:25 <tusho> ais523: yes, i know, any language that doesn't have every library in the core distribution is evil
19:38:32 <ais523> no, that's not it at all
19:38:34 <Deewiant> what about the JSP, PHP, ASP programmers responsible for 80+% of web sites
19:38:50 <Deewiant> and e-mail validators that reject "xe@xe.org"
19:38:51 <tusho> Deewiant: they suck, and your point is
19:39:00 <tusho> what rejects xe@xe.org
19:39:36 <Deewiant> something rejected it because the part before @ was "too short"
19:39:56 <Deewiant> something with 2 chars, anyway
19:40:25 <Deewiant> tusho: and my point is, whoop-te-do, so good validators exist. They're not used anywhere which makes them practically useless.
19:40:33 <tusho> doesn't mean they should die
19:40:35 <tusho> the reverse, in fact.
19:40:43 <Deewiant> in most cases it's easier to just send e-mail to the address
19:41:04 <tusho> what about validating that it has a @ and a . in it
19:41:06 <tusho> that seems reasonable to me
19:41:08 <Deewiant> why the hell does there need to be a separate validation step
19:41:10 <ais523> Deewiant: couldn't someone get you blacklisted for spamming like that with repeated join attempts?
19:41:42 <Deewiant> or I get what you mean, but I can't quite think of a practical case
19:41:54 <ais523> but it's the sort of thing it's good to think about when designing webapps
19:42:16 <Deewiant> tusho: wrong, . isn't necessary
19:42:37 <tusho> but i don't WANt people registering @localhost
19:43:01 <Deewiant> or anything else that resolves to a LAN address
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19:43:21 <tusho> Deewiant: or just take the easy route out and check for @ and .
19:43:29 <tusho> because there will never be an address you want that doesn't have a . in it
19:43:41 <tusho> Deewiant: yeah, uh, no.
19:43:50 <ais523> tusho: you un-forward-looking person!
19:44:00 <ais523> even Microsoft Vista has support for IPv6 nowadays
19:44:06 <ais523> and the world has almost run out of IPv4 addresses
19:44:14 <ais523> Deewiant: really? I thought it was just Vista
19:44:28 <tusho> i want to run out of ipv4 addresses
19:44:28 <ais523> people are even resorting to horrible things like NAT to get more IPv4 addresses
19:44:44 <Deewiant> wikipedia page mentions "Windows XP SP2 IPv6 stack"
19:45:05 <Deewiant> http://www.ipv6.org/impl/windows.html
19:46:44 <ais523> no idea what that means when translated from Windowsmarketingspeak
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19:52:03 <ais523> tusho: how's Chrome on Acid3, by the way?
19:52:28 <tusho> ais523: not very good
19:52:40 <tusho> they don't use webkit's drawing as it uses propietary apis on windows
19:52:44 <ais523> tusho: does it beat Safari?
19:52:44 <tusho> so they've had to write that bit themselves
19:52:45 <tusho> so it's unsurprising
19:53:00 <ais523> yes, I meant released Safari
19:53:05 <tusho> then no, i don't think so
19:53:10 <tusho> it gets like 47/100
19:53:12 <ais523> you have a Mac, you should be able to check easily
19:53:32 <tusho> but i don't wanna open chrome
19:53:49 <tusho> that involves starting parallels
19:54:14 <tusho> ais523: safari beats it
19:55:41 <tusho> i think i'll go with tusho.net
19:56:01 <tusho> .com is obviously wrong and feels it, .org is OK but I might wanna profit from that domain sometime
19:56:04 <tusho> e.g. sell something i've made
19:56:13 <tusho> .net is pretty much used as the more-netural com these days
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19:57:21 <Deewiant> what makes .name so ugly compared to .net, for instance
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19:58:20 <ais523> hope you netsplit back again soon
19:58:36 <tusho> Deewiant: it's too long for a tld, really
19:58:45 <tusho> http://tusho.name/ just really grates with me, aesthetically
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19:58:53 <tusho> i guess it's ego: .name is getting as much attention as tusho
19:58:57 <tusho> when tusho is the important part
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19:59:03 <tusho> tusho.net gives 'tusho' the focus
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19:59:45 <ais523> tusho: I thought .net was mostly for ISPs and suchlike
19:59:50 <fizzie> I have "gehennom.org" registered even though there's nothing like an organization there. On the other hand, "zem.fi" is equally pointless and was chosen because of the shortness. And neither of those are really "name"-style addresses.
19:59:51 <tusho> ais523: used to be
20:00:05 <tusho> now it's just "everything"
20:00:11 <tusho> just as .com was once for commercial things
20:00:12 <fizzie> All of .com/.net/.org seem to be just "everything" now.
20:00:19 <tusho> .org is not everything
20:00:21 <ais523> beh, I like TLD segregation
20:00:23 <tusho> I haven't seen a profiteering .org site
20:00:31 <ais523> and .com vs. .org is to do with profit-making, I think
20:00:33 <tusho> ais523: .net is the best genericized one, probably
20:00:39 <tusho> because .com 'feels' commercial, kind of
20:00:42 <tusho> and .org feels organizational
20:00:44 <tusho> but .net just feels generic
20:00:52 <tusho> so i think if you want a generic tld to use, .net is the way to go
20:01:35 <fizzie> I did think about getting "zzie.fi" because of the nickname, but maybe not.
20:01:49 <tusho> fizzie: you could get fizz.ie
20:02:09 <fizzie> "Surprisingly" the name "zzie" was not taken.
20:02:13 <tusho> a friend has http://hideou.se/ though, that's where the counter is
20:02:20 <tusho> (his online moniker is Hideous)
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20:31:34 <ais523> arguably it already has, but everyone just calls it stupid and ignores it
20:34:44 <ais523> oh, anything so random and stupid it doesn't even seem to count as art
20:43:27 <tusho> postmodernism is bullshit
20:43:37 <tusho> postpostmodernism is not postbullshit, though
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20:53:39 <oerjan> did something happen to g?
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20:57:46 <oerjan> that's some serious time dilation you've got there. look out for black holes.
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21:11:30 <tusho> who votes i should get tusho.net
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21:48:12 <tusho> ok,,,hehehehhehehe......
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22:35:33 <tusho> an internet stalker
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03:15:38 <CO2Games> I want to make my own brainfuck language. How would I go about getting a compiler for it?
03:20:48 <CO2Games> Or should I go for an interpretted language
03:21:18 <pikhq> Making your own Brainfuck language?
03:21:23 <pikhq> If it's Brainfuck, it's not your own.
03:22:25 <CO2Games> Well I want to modify it and make it my own
03:24:19 <CO2Games> And I want a seperate data storage area, not an array, more of a single variable I can cache things into
03:25:12 <lament> it's probably better for everyone if you write your own compiler or interpreter
03:26:01 <CO2Games> Like so I can ^<<<V and that would copy the value to the cache, then move back three, and copy the value from cache
03:26:40 <CO2Games> And I'm looking for a way to use a pointer to a specific piece on the tape
03:26:53 <lament> and the single-value cache is the only vailable storage?
03:28:00 <CO2Games> Like in assembly, you have the stack, but you also have areas you can place data, and get it later
03:28:58 <CO2Games> It just would be nice if we got that.
03:30:05 <CO2Games> I mean a tape is great but there's still a small piece of ram in the back
03:30:42 <lament> my guess is that it would make brainfuck too easy to be interesting
03:32:03 <CO2Games> like you do a bunch of stuff, no idea where you are after some loops. 0@, there I'm back at the start
03:32:37 <CO2Games> Since the left edge is not infinite on this 'tape', there would be a device to rewind to the start of the tape
03:33:14 <CO2Games> Also, my first brainfuck program >+[++++++++++>,----------]<[<]>>[.>]
03:33:51 <CO2Games> Takes input until a 10, then echos all of the data
03:35:15 <lament> have you tried running it?
03:35:29 <CO2Games> That's why this one actually works now
03:36:12 <CO2Games> Before I just had a program that went until a null pointer but I'm not exactly going to hit a NULL button on my keyboard to stop the program
03:36:52 <CO2Games> What I'm looking for is a way to force a loop to happen at least once, a do...while, rather than a while
03:37:43 <CO2Games> Yeah I know but then you use up another space
03:38:12 <CO2Games> I would much rather have >{++++++++++>,----------}<[<]>[.>]
03:40:08 <CO2Games> I guess I could work on a parser for uhh whatever I'm going to call my little brainfuck derivative
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04:24:07 <CO2Games> Ok I've decided on having two tapes, the program code cells, and the data storage cells
04:40:34 <lament> you don't need much of a parser when every instruction is 1 char
04:41:24 <lament> brainfuck was actually designed to make it easy to compile/interpret
05:09:44 <CO2Games> Yeah but I've got a lot of commands planned
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10:27:04 <AnMaster> What exactly does "If an attempt is made to modify the result of a comma operator or to access it after the next sequence point, the behavior is undefined." mean?
10:27:22 <AnMaster> it is from C99 standard 6.5.17 paragraph 3
10:27:27 <AnMaster> it is from C99 standard 6.5.17 paragraph 2
10:32:26 <AnMaster> however that seems like it should be undefined to me
10:32:32 <Deewiant> probably nothing you'd ever run into in practice
10:32:40 <Deewiant> sounds awfully obscure, anyway
10:33:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well IOCCC probably...
10:34:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I suspect obscure use of the comma operator is an excellent way to obfuscate C code.
10:34:55 <Deewiant> I think anything nontrivial is UB
10:35:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however the specs give "f(a, (t=3, t+2), c)" as a valid example
10:35:42 <AnMaster> would mean f(a, 5, c) according to the example's description
10:35:45 <Deewiant> yeah but that's fairly nontrivial ;-)
10:36:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you added a "non" to much I think
10:36:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still if I ever saw something like like that in real code I would have to read it twice then exclaim wtf :P
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14:43:14 <AnMaster> can you code a compiler (in a non-TC language) for a TC language?
14:46:25 <tusho> for a lang which goes through 'a=b' in order and applies to stdin and finally outputs to stdout:
14:46:40 <tusho> well, you get my meaning
14:46:44 <tusho> brainfuck->c is just trivial string replacements
14:47:23 <AnMaster> bf->simple asm in Befunge-93 should also be possible
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15:37:35 <CO2Games> Alright I just finished my cache and tape classes, not sure if they work or not.
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16:59:44 <tusho> i thought ais would be here today.
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17:28:35 <AnMaster> tusho, btw cfunge compiles successfully on GCC and ICC. TCC lacks a certain C99 feature currently cfunge uses but they plan to add that. PCC I couldn't even get to compile a simple hello world on my system
17:28:51 <AnMaster> compiling llvm/clang currently, though clang is experimental
17:28:55 <tusho> i'm not sure why you decided to tell me all that
17:29:05 <AnMaster> so will be fun to see if it works
17:29:09 <tusho> also, can't wait for clang to replace gcc
17:29:15 <tusho> from what i've heard it is completely awesome
17:29:29 <AnMaster> however it is still far from complete
17:29:46 <tusho> perhaps ais523 should be writing an LLVM backend instead...
17:29:47 <AnMaster> tusho, also I suspect trying to compile a kernel using llvm could cause serious issues
17:30:04 <tusho> AnMaster: well, presumably they're targeting regular apps first
17:30:21 <AnMaster> anyway GCC won't be replaced for a long time
17:30:34 <tusho> bit of a shame, it is _quite_ warty
17:30:37 <AnMaster> maybe on OS X, since Apple seems to be LLVM fans
17:30:48 <tusho> nah, os x is still very BSDy
17:31:06 <AnMaster> tusho, you ever been to #llvm on oftc?
17:31:12 <AnMaster> a lot seem to match *.apple.com
17:31:23 <tusho> yea, well, apple have done a lot with llvm
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17:31:57 <AnMaster> tusho, however, llvm is rather large
17:32:05 <AnMaster> I guess the cause is that it is written in C++
17:32:08 <tusho> there's quite a difference
17:32:13 <AnMaster> not something I would like on an embedded system
17:32:26 <AnMaster> on an embedded system I would probably try something like PCC
17:32:29 <tusho> but you can't just tweak a regular compiler for embeddedness
17:32:34 <tusho> so that's unsurprising
17:32:39 <AnMaster> tusho, PCC and/or TCC should work fine there
17:33:45 <tusho> AnMaster: does this look ok in konqueror to you? http://eso-std.org/
17:33:52 <tusho> it's the style i'm going to use for my blahhhg
17:33:58 <tusho> a screenshot would be appreciated
17:34:04 <tusho> although tbh i don't give a crap about konqueror, nobody uses it
17:34:08 <AnMaster> tusho, so you broke the real site?
17:34:19 <AnMaster> tusho, it looks better than in firefox
17:34:28 <tusho> AnMaster: the real site had nothing there
17:34:33 <tusho> except a test post
17:34:43 <tusho> with the default skin
17:34:48 <AnMaster> tusho, why is there an empty white box above the title and below the red bar?
17:35:00 <tusho> AnMaster: works in ff3, it's just that ff2 is broken
17:35:03 <tusho> that's the same bug IE has
17:35:10 <tusho> the white box is meant to stretch the whole page
17:35:13 <tusho> i.e. the posts are meant to be in the white box
17:35:19 <tusho> does konqueror not even show a white box at all?
17:35:25 <tusho> lol, i knew it was broken but dayum :)
17:35:31 <AnMaster> tusho, in ff2 all links are underlined, in konq they are underline on hover
17:35:38 <tusho> AnMaster: that's a konqueror default
17:36:01 <tusho> a screenshot in ff2&konqueror would be much appreciated, i don't have them to test with
17:36:32 <AnMaster> tusho, the red box around ESO have 90 deg corners in konq
17:36:42 <tusho> AnMaster: again, screenshot would you :P
17:36:51 <AnMaster> tusho, just will take a few minutes
17:42:28 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I said a few minutes...
17:42:53 <tusho> AnMaster: you were 6 minutes.
17:47:42 <AnMaster> ######################################################################## 100.0%
17:47:50 <tusho> AnMaster: so use another image host
17:47:52 <tusho> it's not rocket science
17:48:04 <tusho> i generally use xs.to
17:48:07 <tusho> or you could use bayimg.com
17:48:31 <tusho> AnMaster: are you going to die to upload two f*cking images via a browser
17:49:10 <tusho> AnMaster: why, exactly? What's the big deal?
17:49:32 <tusho> AnMaster: http://bayimg.com/ just upload it, sheesh
17:49:51 <tusho> what the fuck is the problem with clicking 'browse', selecting a file and clicking upload?
17:50:00 <tusho> why do you make such a goddamn fuss over having to use a GUI program?
17:50:06 <AnMaster> tusho, give me a page that doesn't time out...
17:50:17 <tusho> Both xs.to and bayimg.com fail?
17:50:26 <tusho> How big is that file?!
17:50:52 <AnMaster> tusho, hm I think my ISP got issues
17:51:54 <tusho> totally broken, both of em
17:52:12 <tusho> AnMaster: can't be arsed, it's for my personal blog
17:52:21 <tusho> works in firefox 3 & ie 6/7
17:52:28 <tusho> that'll make up, uh, all of my traffic.
17:52:47 <tusho> no reason why it shouldn't, it's based on webkit like safari
17:53:00 <tusho> the markup is very lean
17:53:03 <tusho> it should be very nice in lynx
17:53:14 <AnMaster> tusho, well it works in ff2 and konq too, just not the CSS bit
17:53:19 <AnMaster> and that doesn't work in lynx either
17:53:48 <AnMaster> tusho, doesn't work well in lynx
17:53:54 <tusho> it works fine for me
17:54:03 <AnMaster> is what it looks like at the top
17:54:16 <tusho> what is the problem...
17:54:23 <tusho> page title, the <link> elements, then the h1
17:54:26 <tusho> that's how lynx displays things,
17:54:42 <tusho> no, i have lynx here
17:54:45 <tusho> the point is it's correct.
17:54:56 <tusho> #Feed is from the <link> element to the atom feed in my <head>
17:55:01 <tusho> the second ESO is from the <h1>
17:55:05 <tusho> the first one is from the <title>
17:55:27 <tusho> AnMaster: anyway, firefox's problem there is that that white thing should stretch down to the bottom of the page
17:55:30 <tusho> and the posts should be contained within it
17:55:55 <tusho> AnMaster: exactly the same except it lacks the white box altogether...
17:56:07 <AnMaster> tusho, and got non-rounded corners for the red thing
17:56:16 <tusho> AnMaster: yea, but only firefox and webkit support those
17:56:20 <tusho> well, gecko and webkit
17:56:32 <AnMaster> tusho, so it is a non-standard CSS bit?
17:56:32 <tusho> -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 5px;
17:56:32 <tusho> -webkit-border-bottom-left-radius: 5px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 5px;
17:56:32 <tusho> -webkit-border-bottom-right-radius: 5px;
17:56:36 <tusho> AnMaster: it's in CSS3
17:56:45 <tusho> but nothing implements it apart from gecko and webkit
17:56:48 <tusho> and since it isn't standard yet
17:56:53 <tusho> they use the standard CSS method for unstandard things
17:57:04 <tusho> they disagree a bit on how to do things like 'bottom left', though
17:57:20 <tusho> but yes, it's not-yet-standard CSS because css3 isn't final yet
17:57:41 <tusho> anyway, the problem with firefox 2 and konqueror is that they don't let you apply styling to unrecognized elements
17:57:44 <tusho> which is a bug bug bug bug bug bug
17:57:46 <tusho> and entirely their fault
17:57:56 <tusho> (i use HTML5 elements like <article> and such)
17:58:14 <tusho> IE6/7 has the same bug but a tiny piece of JS fixes it
17:58:15 <AnMaster> tusho, they don't claim to support HTML5 I guess
17:58:22 <tusho> AnMaster: it's not to do with that
17:58:27 <tusho> they should let you style <asdasdad>
17:58:30 <tusho> it's how css works
17:58:36 <tusho> it is an actual bug on their part
17:58:37 <AnMaster> if you used XML + your own XML Schema I guess it would work?
17:58:43 <tusho> but it's still a bug
17:58:58 <AnMaster> tusho, well add a custom XML schema for it?
17:59:11 <tusho> i don't want my pages to be xhtml, can you remember the huge rant in #ESO?
17:59:16 <tusho> i believe I have stated my cause very well
17:59:22 <tusho> and the people working on html5 100% agree with me too
17:59:41 <AnMaster> tusho, so where in the html5 file does it say anything about what version of HTML it is?
17:59:53 <tusho> that doctype is html5-specific
17:59:57 <tusho> all the pre-html5 ones look like this
18:00:04 <AnMaster> yes I know what they look like
18:00:04 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE html "-//W3C//dicks dicks butts">
18:00:11 <tusho> AnMaster: however, you're wrong
18:00:13 <AnMaster> how can you know what html version
18:00:15 <tusho> as browsers ignore the doctype
18:00:19 <tusho> apart from quirks mode vs standards mode
18:00:25 <tusho> they don't actually listen to what version you put in there
18:00:26 <AnMaster> tusho, what about future html6 version?
18:00:31 <tusho> AnMaster: <!DOCTYPE html>
18:00:43 <AnMaster> tusho, so if there were any breaking changes stuff would go pretty bad?
18:00:48 <tusho> AnMaster: it does anyway
18:00:52 <tusho> browsers ignore whatever html version you specify
18:00:56 <tusho> they use the doctype to determine:
18:01:01 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean the major ones do?
18:01:13 <tusho> 1. whether you actually have one (quirks mode vs standards mode)
18:01:19 <AnMaster> but that doesn't prevent some potential browser from caring about it
18:01:25 <tusho> AnMaster: such a browser would be useless
18:01:33 <tusho> as the number of broken webpages would be sky-high with it
18:01:47 <AnMaster> tusho, it could have a quirks mode as well
18:01:53 <tusho> the web is shit, people put shit that contradicts other shit in their shit, and as a browser maker you have to bend over, take it, and add a metric fuckton of hacks to make them work
18:01:59 <tusho> it's lame but it's true
18:02:15 <tusho> AnMaster: btw - http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/07/html5-doctype
18:24:14 <AnMaster> apart from that, which I suspect is a LLVM or clang bug, it works
18:35:38 <AnMaster> tusho, found the issue, it clang claims to be GCC by defining __GNUC__, so that exposes some inline asm in a system header... which then clang fails horribly at
18:35:53 <tusho> well, I can see why they claim to be gcc
18:35:54 <AnMaster> not even going to bother with reporting a bug
18:35:56 <tusho> tons of stuff dies out without it
18:36:20 <tusho> AnMaster: your browser sends a user agent that lies
18:36:25 <tusho> and covers up its lie with (compatible;
18:36:28 <tusho> gonna stop using that?
18:36:30 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I hate that as much
18:36:32 <tusho> it does it SO THINGS WORK
18:36:40 <tusho> AnMaster: you'd prefer it if everything was broken, huh
18:37:14 <Deewiant> really, the issue is crap that does #ifdef __GNUC__
18:37:25 <tusho> Deewiant: but he's not going to report a bug because they're DIRTY LIARS
18:37:31 <tusho> that is ridiculous
18:37:55 <tusho> evil, malicious, dirty, conniving LIARS
18:37:58 <tusho> they probably lie to everyone
18:38:09 <tusho> why would he deal with such sleazy folk
18:44:18 <oklopol> i wouldn't report a bug either
18:44:30 <tusho> oklopol: no but you wouldn't report it anyway
18:44:37 <tusho> whereas AnMaster has stated that the reason is because "they're liars"
18:44:58 <oklopol> i don't mind weird reasons
18:51:16 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> really, the issue is crap that does #ifdef __GNUC__
18:52:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes, ICC does it too, but at least ICC 1) doesn't fail at it 2) got an option to turn that off (-no-gcc). Though I would prefer if it defaulted to off rather than on
18:52:05 <Deewiant> yes, so file a bug with glibc :-)
18:52:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, as for 1) clang is beta
18:52:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed. but they want me to try to create a minimal test case not including any system headers.. well as far as I can see it is a preprocessor issue
18:52:58 <Deewiant> and as for preference, again, too much stupid stuff does #ifdef __GNUC__
18:53:22 <pikhq> It's really irritating to define __GNUC__ if you don't implement GNU C... Stuff that dies without __GNUC__ defined doesn't *deserve* to compile.
18:54:19 <pikhq> I thought glibc was fairly explicitly designed to not need __GNUC__.
18:54:34 <Deewiant> "look at Tiny C Compiler development list for workaround they had to put up with to use glibc headers. (TCC refuses to define __GNUC__, but what a pain it causes.)"
18:54:55 <pikhq> As far as the Linux kernel goes, yeah; why, exactly, *do* they decide to only work with GCC?
18:55:27 <Deewiant> probably because they decided to use C for speed, which makes sense, but C is such a crap language that they want to use the GNU extensions, which also makes sense. :-P
18:55:59 <pikhq> Glibc has absolutely no excuse.
18:56:23 <pikhq> The GNU coding standards fairly explicitly require cross-UNIX compatibility.
18:56:24 <tusho> pikhq: exactly so it's better to support it
18:56:33 <tusho> except that it makes them DIRTY SLEAZY LIARS
18:57:47 <Deewiant> hmm, no compilers I have can optimize "switch (foo) { case bar: stuff; break; default; assert (0); }" to "stuff;" :-(
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18:59:54 <AnMaster> <pikhq> It's really irritating to define __GNUC__ if you don't implement GNU C... Stuff that dies without __GNUC__ defined doesn't *deserve* to compile.
19:00:24 <AnMaster> however it is a lot worse that compilers die when they define __GNUC__ and then get some weird stuff from system headers
19:00:45 <AnMaster> the compiler authors only got themselves to blame
19:01:10 <Deewiant> of course they're going to do something about it given that it's /glibc/
19:01:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for TCC, it works almost fine on cfunge
19:01:23 <tusho> Deewiant: and they'd get it done faster
19:01:23 <AnMaster> there seems to be one single C99 construct that cfunge uses that TCC can't handle
19:01:25 <tusho> if AnMaster reported a bug.
19:01:29 <tusho> because they're LIARS
19:01:46 <tusho> AnMaster: ah, so you like sleazy liars now
19:01:48 <AnMaster> since they ask you to use their mailing list
19:02:04 <tusho> i was talking to Deewiant
19:02:15 <tusho> you win the reading comprehension prize
19:02:19 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: ah, so you like sleazy liars now
19:02:30 <AnMaster> or why did you mention my nick
19:02:35 <tusho> AnMaster: please read properly
19:02:39 <tusho> but I was talking to Deewiant
19:03:03 <tusho> and how they'd fix the bug quicker if it were to be, you know, reported.
19:03:11 <AnMaster> tusho, and well it is not because they are liars, but well they are too. but because they only got themselves to blame
19:03:11 <tusho> but you won't, because they're "liars"
19:03:15 <AnMaster> if they claim to be another compiler
19:03:26 <tusho> AnMaster: so tell them and let them fucking fix it
19:03:37 <tusho> or is it COMPILER EAT COMPILER EVERY COMPILER FOR HIMSELF
19:06:34 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving.").
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19:16:45 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
19:17:53 <GreyKnight> I got a memo from some randomer asking me to come back here, I guess the addition of ancient logs to the /topic has something to do with it :-)
19:32:19 -!- CO2Games has joined.
19:32:45 <pikhq> Now, if I knew who you were, that'd be great. :p
19:35:59 <optbot> Mony: !"BF!"100[1-$][['<]['>]['+]['-]['.][',][91][93]8CHOOSE;!,]#
19:40:56 <tusho> he's a guy from a september 06 log i read a while back!
19:41:15 <tusho> unless someone else is memoing people demanding their return
19:41:17 <tusho> which would be strange
19:41:30 <tusho> and pikhq, i seem to remember you talking to him in the log :P
19:42:11 <tusho> pikhq: here http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.02
19:42:15 <GreyKnight> <tusho> [GreyKnight] is cool. <-- wooo critical acclaim
19:42:33 <GreyKnight> how is the wacky world of esoterica these days, anyway
19:42:34 <tusho> GreyKnight: rated 5 out of 5 by irc magazine!
19:42:41 <tusho> and ... pretty much the same, i think.
19:43:44 <pikhq> Odd; I think I was around in '06.
19:43:57 <pikhq> Did I join in '05 or '06?
19:44:02 <tusho> pikhq: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.02 has you in it
19:44:11 <tusho> and is the log i read with GreyKnight in it :P
19:44:18 <tusho> GreyKnight: oh, as for why I saw that particular log
19:44:20 <pikhq> Guess I just forgot Sir Grey.
19:44:28 <tusho> our bot here (say hi optbot)
19:44:28 <optbot> tusho: I might add <ii (reminiscent of html's "ISINDEX") for a form with just a text field, a submit button and optionally a prompt :P
19:44:39 <tusho> - spews out random quotes from the entire backlog of esoteric
19:44:41 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Sure it does..
19:44:45 <tusho> and keeps our topic interesting.
19:44:53 <tusho> I saw a quote that interested me, so I grepped for it and found that log.
19:44:58 <tusho> and ended up reading it. ~fin~
19:46:06 <AnMaster> I think I seen the nick before somewhere
19:46:31 <tusho> AnMaster: you really are good at asking a question that we've just discussed and answered...
19:46:35 <tusho> he is from this log http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.02
19:46:39 <tusho> well http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.01 and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.09.02
19:46:55 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm on a PDA atm, connecting to the bnc, I don't have a lot of scrollback...
19:47:04 <tusho> AnMaster: you only need like 10 lines of scrollbar
19:47:30 <AnMaster> tusho, issue is I just connected at "<tusho> GreyKnight: oh, as for why I saw that particular log"
19:49:19 <AnMaster> ok off again, should be back to normal computer soon
19:51:58 <CO2Games> Agh I can't get my brainfuck interpreter to work
19:53:06 <AnMaster> by the way I recently came up with a new (I think) way of optimising bf
19:53:26 <AnMaster> after a [-] you can know you hit 0. Right?
19:53:56 <GreyKnight> I see bf is still popular these days, then
19:53:59 <AnMaster> now if that isn't directly followed by any unbalanced loops or such
19:54:20 <CO2Games> Actually I'm not sure [-] would do that in all cases
19:54:21 <AnMaster> you could optimise away [-]>>++++<<+ to set *one* instead
19:54:34 <tusho> GreyKnight: it shall always be...
19:54:46 <tusho> AnMaster: trivial optimization
19:54:47 <tusho> everything does it :P
19:55:01 <AnMaster> in fact apart from in unbalanced loops (as in different > and < count) you could optimise about everything to set constants or add fixed numbers
19:55:12 <CO2Games> I have a problem with the brainfuck interpreter I'm writing
19:55:20 <AnMaster> and you could do loop renumbering
19:55:26 <AnMaster> even partly in unbalanced loops
19:56:37 <CO2Games> Oh I wrote my first brainfuck program
19:56:58 <AnMaster> I seen it done for balanced loops
19:57:14 <tusho> tons of stuff does that
19:57:19 <tusho> see bf4.c or whatever
19:57:21 <tusho> by that mazonka guy
19:57:42 <AnMaster> tusho, my other idea: Befunge: you could probably JIT it
19:58:02 <AnMaster> at least not by any reasonable way
19:58:08 <tusho> see befunge wiki page
19:58:34 <AnMaster> tusho, can't find the word JIT there?
19:58:43 <tusho> there is more to reading than ctrl-f
19:59:02 <AnMaster> "The bf2c compiler included with the standard Befunge-93 distribution uses threaded code: each instruction is compiled to a snippet of C code, and control flows through the snippets just as it does in a Befunge interpreter (that is, conditionally on the value of some 'direction' register.) This does not result in a significant advantage over a good interpreter."
19:59:27 <AnMaster> also "Note that the bf2c compiler is not correct since it does not handle p correctly, but it would not be impossible to make it do so (although the C language might not be well-suited for this.)"
19:59:50 <tusho> AnMaster: how about actually reading
19:59:57 <tusho> and who cares about the link
20:00:00 <tusho> it's still been done
20:00:24 <AnMaster> and it is not JIT really for B98
20:00:24 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, evidently they are lying to suppress your ideas.
20:00:34 <tusho> the hard bit is g and p.
20:00:36 <tusho> and the directions
20:00:41 <tusho> both 93 and 98 have that
20:00:50 <AnMaster> tusho, betty only handles cardinal directions
20:00:59 <tusho> so? it's not a hard extension
20:01:11 <AnMaster> because in befunge 98 you can set delta to, say, 5,3 or whatever
20:02:37 <AnMaster> well pre-compiling lines may not be that useful then
20:02:52 <tusho> so pre-compile instructions
20:02:55 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway the real challenge would be actually compiling it
20:03:13 <tusho> just compile the instruction and a switch based on the direction
20:03:15 <AnMaster> yes, to self modifying asm I guess
20:03:31 <AnMaster> tusho, and if the instruction changes? using p
20:03:37 <AnMaster> then you need to self modify it
20:03:41 <tusho> then recompile it and mov it into place
20:03:45 <tusho> betty did this, obviously
20:03:48 <tusho> since its the only way
20:04:00 <AnMaster> tusho, it could use some JIT framework to do it...
20:05:03 <AnMaster> anyway it should be possible to make some patological thing like <bytes for longest instruction><jump handler>, to actually use a 25*80*sizeof(celloverhead)
20:06:15 <GreyKnight> I think what we *really* need is some novel languages :-p
20:06:18 <AnMaster> which would basically be place for longest instructions (fill rest with nops) + a direction handler
20:06:30 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, like ais523's Feather?
20:07:08 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, considering the *grammar* is self modifiable using time jumps
20:07:16 <AnMaster> so you can rewrite it to be a different language
20:07:30 <AnMaster> which would cause a time jump and reinterpreting the whole thing iirc
20:08:02 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, well no links, since ais523 have been unable to write up specs or implementation so far
20:08:09 <AnMaster> haven't yet manage to figure out all the details
20:08:22 <AnMaster> oh btw he is the C-INTERCAL maintainer so I'm sure he will manage it :P
20:09:31 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, the fact that it involve time jumps make it extra interesting
20:09:53 <GreyKnight> rewinding the execution timeline and so on?
20:10:15 <AnMaster> Only two implementations have it
20:10:36 <Deewiant> and they implement it differently and neither implementer knows who's wrong and about what ;-)
20:10:41 <AnMaster> RC/Funge (author invented it), CCBI (author implemented it and found RC/Funge's one didn't work)
20:11:07 <Deewiant> and since then, RC/Funge fixed its, but differently to CCBI, and now they're different in an unknown way :-P
20:11:12 <AnMaster> and that is why I won't implement it in cfunge
20:11:15 <GreyKnight> good, "complex" keeps us in business ;-)
20:11:34 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge_manual.html#TRDS
20:12:12 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, hm.. worked a second ago...
20:12:28 <Deewiant> welp, google cache probably has it
20:12:34 <tusho> oh and Deewiant develops ccbi
20:12:39 <tusho> since nobody seems to have mentioned that :P
20:13:06 <tusho> and dbc is daniel b cristofani, but i think he was here in '06 too
20:13:19 <AnMaster> http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:gFspwyCbPjkJ:www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html+rc/funge&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2
20:13:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lets just hope it doesn't last long now
20:14:26 <Deewiant> yay, I just got NULL to work in CCBI 2
20:14:41 <Deewiant> I guess that's a good point to stop hacking for today
20:14:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you know NULL and ROMA are easy :P
20:15:26 <Deewiant> of course the actual work there was writing the fingerprints framework, not NULL :-P
20:15:46 <tusho> wait. Deewiant is doing work?
20:15:56 <AnMaster> tusho, his posix_fadvice version ;)
20:16:08 <tusho> Deewiant: why are you doing work man
20:16:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, only NULL now :-P
20:16:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so loading more than one fingerprint doesn't work yet?
20:16:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, I've just only implemented NULL
20:16:41 <Deewiant> and figured I'd stop for today
20:16:48 <Deewiant> not like it'd take long to get ROMA, MODU, etc
20:17:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cathedral style development? Or finally going open bazaar style? ;)
20:18:11 <Deewiant> can't be bothered to generate dev snapshots and I'm not sure it makes sense to run a static HTML mercurial repo
20:18:32 <Deewiant> (since I don't have the option of running a proper mercurial server)
20:18:36 <tusho> every piece of bugging zealotism becomes a joke if you add /me runs after it
20:18:43 <tusho> AnMaster: KILL JEWS
20:18:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about going to, say, darcs?
20:18:49 <Deewiant> (and since I don't want to run on hgweb or some other site which ain't mine)
20:18:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: say, because darcs sucks :-P
20:19:26 <Deewiant> maybe if I looked into it properly I'd like it too
20:19:30 <AnMaster> I like some of it's features certainly
20:20:05 <AnMaster> very useful when you want to backport some changes to a stable branch for example
20:20:23 <Deewiant> it's just a matter of your workflow
20:20:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? I need to back/forward port bugfixes randomly
20:20:46 <Deewiant> with git, I guess the idea is that you make a new local branch (or what are they called) for each individual change
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20:21:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't think that will help for that
20:21:07 <Deewiant> and then if you need to pull a change to a stable branch you just pull from the change's branch
20:21:09 <AnMaster> since they would have diverged
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20:21:24 <AnMaster> and you would need to pull in other changes from said branch that came from the main branch
20:21:24 <Ilari> Deewiant: Yup. Topic branches. One branch per change (where change can span multiple commits)...
20:21:27 <Deewiant> well, of course in the cherry-pick case you also have to merge them :-P
20:21:53 <AnMaster> Ilari, where would you branch it from?
20:21:55 <Deewiant> I don't see the advantage of cherry-pick in that case, you need to merge the changes in any case
20:22:08 <AnMaster> for a bug fix that needs to go into both
20:22:15 <Deewiant> I guess it's smarter to branch from stable in that case
20:22:16 <Ilari> Nitpiking, merge the branch, pulling branch impiles also fetching it...
20:22:59 <AnMaster> well wouldn't merging the changes from that topic branch require any changes missing from the target of the merge, and that came from previous branches
20:23:33 <AnMaster> rev 70 (trunk): branch of bug fix branch xxx
20:23:40 <AnMaster> find you need to merge it into stable too
20:23:53 <Ilari> Deewiant: At least git.git itself commits more critical bugfixes to mainintance branch and then merges mainintance branch into development (and then merges development branch into less stable development branch).
20:23:55 <AnMaster> wouldn't that require merging any changes between 50 and 70? If not
20:24:03 <AnMaster> If not then it is cherry picking
20:24:42 <AnMaster> maybe you didn't know the bug fix was needed for stable
20:25:14 <AnMaster> or maybe some other developer made it against trunk, and didn't know about stable needed it, he not being a stable maintainer
20:25:36 <AnMaster> Ilari, so tell me how that works out
20:25:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what about cherry-picking a bugfix change from trunk, how is it different
20:25:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> wouldn't that require merging any changes between 50 and 70? If not
20:25:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> If not then it is cherry picking
20:25:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> if it needs that: useless
20:26:04 <Deewiant> it's not cherry picking in that case
20:26:04 <AnMaster> thing is, the version control system should be able to keep track of it
20:26:40 <Deewiant> cherry picking is, take these X changes from branch foo and put them in branch bar
20:26:59 <Deewiant> with topic branches, you've just manually put some of the X changes in another branch
20:27:11 <Deewiant> and then it's merge from branch baz to bar
20:27:31 <AnMaster> yes... but merge would require merging any other changes from that branch
20:27:32 <Deewiant> or that's my understanding of it anyway, Ilari might be able to correct if I get something wrong
20:27:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> rev 50: branch off stable
20:27:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> rev 70 (trunk): branch of bug fix branch xxx
20:27:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and of course, merge does that, just like a normal merge
20:27:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so that means changes from *trunk* between 50 and 70
20:28:10 <AnMaster> if you can skip them, then it is cherry picking
20:28:21 <AnMaster> because they are part of the feature branch's history
20:29:19 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if you can skip them, I haven't done much branching myself let alone messing with git enough to know if it has an option for this :-)
20:29:31 <Deewiant> but even if you can, I wouldn't call it cherry picking
20:29:35 <Deewiant> a subset of cherry picking, maybe
20:29:50 <Ilari> If you notice that the bugfix is also needed for stable, maybe rebase the bugfix branch?
20:30:23 <AnMaster> that is why I prefer cherry picking
20:32:19 <Deewiant> I guess you're screwed in that case if you've already published the bugfix branch
20:32:29 <Deewiant> but I'm not sure if that's something you should be doing in any case
20:34:22 <AnMaster> well if you another developer did it, and you, the maintainer notice it
20:34:41 <AnMaster> but the original developer (who doesn't have commit access to the official trunk)
20:35:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "shouldn't be doing" still?
20:35:31 <Deewiant> like said, I don't know if topic branches should be published
20:36:10 <Deewiant> if not, the original developer shouldn't have and thus hasn't done it, thus he can rebase it and it can be applied to stable
20:36:19 <AnMaster> how else should a non-core developer, say Mr. Random Programmer using your project who wants to help contribute a fix. And you notice it applies to stable too, which Mr Random Programmer doesn't use
20:36:46 <Deewiant> he makes a topic branch for the change
20:36:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, and don't care about stable
20:36:56 <Deewiant> he pulls the changes from the topic branch into his main branch
20:37:04 <AnMaster> I certainly would only look at the part I use
20:37:07 <Deewiant> he pushes or somebody pulls into the devel branch
20:37:16 <Deewiant> you ask him to rebase his topic branch
20:37:31 <Deewiant> you pull from his topic branch into the stable branch
20:37:51 <AnMaster> well, I think cherrypicking is a cleaner approach
20:38:00 <AnMaster> and that doesn't prevent the invariant of commits
20:38:09 <Deewiant> like said it's a matter of your workflow
20:38:11 <AnMaster> IMO commits can not be changed once done
20:38:18 <Deewiant> in some sense I think cherrypicking is uglier
20:38:26 <Deewiant> since you don't get any separation of changesets
20:38:32 <AnMaster> rebase implies that your commits are mutable
20:38:34 <Deewiant> with topic branches, each branch is its own unit
20:38:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, topic branches and cherry picking then
20:39:22 <AnMaster> it goes against the core principle
20:39:23 <Deewiant> I think making private history mutable is fine
20:39:35 <GreyKnight> wow, according to the wiki, the 2006 Esolang Contest is *still* going :-D
20:39:43 <GreyKnight> that shouldn't amuse me as much as it does
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20:41:40 <AnMaster> anyway my workflow isn't topic branches really
20:42:00 <AnMaster> not unless they are big changes
20:42:03 <GreyKnight> I remember it from the last time I was here :-)
20:42:18 <AnMaster> I guess everyone just forget it?
20:42:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, I think it's a git thing
20:42:22 <pikhq> GreyKnight: That's because judging has yet to finish. ;p
20:42:36 <pikhq> One of the judges hasn't been seen for months.
20:42:47 <pikhq> When did Sukoshi last show up? February?
20:43:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I make topic branches when I change major core stuff. Like when I last rewrote the entire funge-space code
20:43:21 <AnMaster> had to change the whole idea behind it
20:43:28 <GreyKnight> pikhq: if he can make it through until January then it will be a three-year contest, maybe? :-)
20:43:37 <AnMaster> actually probably May or even April
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20:53:01 <oklopol> i think i should make an entry for the competition.
20:54:57 <CO2Games> My brainfuck interpreter works
20:55:08 <tusho> GreyKnight: you made that mistake in 2006
20:55:15 <tusho> when you discussed the shorthand english
20:56:01 <GreyKnight> well, most IRC clients don't have CTCP GENDER, so I just use "he" as a generic pronoun like normal
20:56:26 <GreyKnight> it's rarely important in discussions about esoteric programming what the gender of your co-conversationalist is anyway :-P
21:02:01 <AnMaster> CO2Games, also have you triest lostking under it?
21:02:08 <AnMaster> because if that doesn't work it is probably buggy
21:03:01 <CO2Games> And how many commands does it contain
21:03:32 <tusho> CO2Games: it's 2mb big
21:04:05 <CO2Games> How many command characters does it contain?
21:04:38 <CO2Games> so how many characters is that
21:06:37 <AnMaster> CO2Games, does it use several levels of nested loops?
21:07:11 <CO2Games> Yeah it doesn't support nested loops yet...
21:07:23 <AnMaster> http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html
21:07:43 <AnMaster> CO2Games, and you say you don't know how much 2 MB's of chars are?
21:07:50 <pikhq> Since it doesn't support nested loops, it's not turing complete.
21:08:01 <AnMaster> if you did, you would have known
21:08:12 <tusho> AnMaster: You gain +5 Holier Than Thou
21:08:18 <tusho> Ding-ding-ding-ding! Level up.
21:08:31 <pikhq> Most PEBBLE-compiled code wouldn't work in it.
21:08:42 <pikhq> CO2Games: I think it just *barely* works in the 30,000 cell limit.
21:09:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, in fact everything except trivial programs will need nested loops
21:09:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh btw how goes Def-BF?
21:10:20 <CO2Games> 1,024,000 code pieces is too much for my interpreter
21:10:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: No work on Def-BF. Busy.
21:10:59 <CO2Games> I use a static array to ensure that I can always reach a place via pointers
21:11:35 <pikhq> CO2Games: What language are you writing this in?
21:12:03 <AnMaster> I mean you got to support large programs
21:12:12 <CO2Games> I have a system for jumps and absolute pointer-movements
21:12:19 <pikhq> It's not hard in C++; just store the large program in a vector...
21:12:36 <CO2Games> It works as an array and I don't want to break that
21:12:50 <AnMaster> CO2Games, any interpreter or compiler that can't handle lostkingdom is not worth the files it was written in ;)
21:12:56 <AnMaster> really, it is the ultimate test
21:13:10 <AnMaster> everyone have to succeed at it
21:13:21 <AnMaster> CO2Games, my first was in *bash* think of that
21:13:48 <AnMaster> admittedly it took about 5 minutes to *parse* lostkingdom
21:13:49 <CO2Games> I can add support by changing the shorts to longs
21:13:57 <AnMaster> and that was even using awk to optimise it at string leve
21:14:09 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: good for you, now you can design your second: the rewrite of the first :-D
21:14:22 <AnMaster> CO2Games, um all cells are 8 bits
21:14:41 <CO2Games> Mine is signed shorts that don't wrap
21:14:45 <tusho> AnMaster: not defined
21:14:47 <AnMaster> CO2Games, if the memory cells aren't then it won't run lostking
21:15:04 <AnMaster> well lostkingdom won't work then
21:15:09 <pikhq> CO2Games, make them unsigned chars.
21:16:03 <CO2Games> It has more than just a pointer thinh
21:16:16 <AnMaster> CO2Games, it Def-BF is meant to be able to write a kernel in
21:16:27 <AnMaster> the high level code got functions
21:16:39 <AnMaster> CO2Games, I wrote a low level implementation
21:16:44 <AnMaster> to handle the pre-processed code
21:16:45 <GreyKnight> the real question is why "lostkingdom" relies on unspecified behaviour ;-o
21:16:50 <AnMaster> no one ever wrote the high level part yet
21:17:03 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, because everyone does it that way?
21:17:09 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: You should invent a nice new one! BF clones are ten-a-penny.
21:17:25 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, oh yes there are lots
21:17:29 <CO2Games> Nah I want something like brainfuck
21:17:35 <pikhq> GreyKnight: It's unspecified but de-facto behavior.
21:17:39 <CO2Games> I'm keeping the standard functions, mostly.
21:17:51 <CO2Games> I'm adding a static variable you can access
21:18:05 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, and apart from Def-BF and Boolfuck, they are just really stuff like "map ook to >, eek to >" or whatever (oh that variant is called "Ook!" iirc)
21:18:23 <CO2Games> Like, to copy a cell, ^ then move over to the destination cell and V
21:18:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: And Dimensifuck?
21:18:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, haven't heard of that one I think?
21:18:43 <AnMaster> or wait is that the several tapes one?
21:18:43 <pikhq> It's one I devised.
21:18:53 <pikhq> Not the one with several tapes.
21:18:55 <AnMaster> then it is one of the actually interesting ones
21:19:00 <pikhq> The code itself is in N dimensions.
21:19:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh how does it differ then?
21:19:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, that's called befunge/trefunge/n-funge :P
21:19:29 <CO2Games> In fact lost kingdom won't run on drainfuck because it has to be prepended with drainfuck:: at the start of the source
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21:19:37 <pikhq> No, though it's vaguely inspired by the funges.
21:19:49 <pikhq> 5 dimensional "Hello, world!".
21:19:55 <AnMaster> drainfuck:: <-- huh. why double : ?
21:20:35 <AnMaster> CO2Games, well try it with unsigned char to make sure lostkingdom works, so you get all the details like nested loops and so on
21:20:52 <CO2Games> No no, I'm going to stay with this
21:21:19 <AnMaster> CO2Games, k, so the nested loops probably are broken
21:21:19 <CO2Games> You see, the cell count and the maximum value per cell is only one off
21:21:34 <AnMaster> lostkingdom is the best test suite for bf there is
21:21:58 <CO2Games> It doesn't follow all of brainfuck's standards
21:21:59 <AnMaster> CO2Games, doesn't mean the same bugs couldn't show up
21:22:10 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensifuck
21:22:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, you should make an opengl based editor with sound effects for it ;)
21:22:33 <CO2Games> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Drainfuck
21:23:15 <CO2Games> So far I have E, ^, and V coded, but none of them are tested
21:23:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh yes there is one for some semi-funge one btw. BeQunge or something like that, B93 + extra dimensions + not limited to 25x80. And buggy
21:23:46 <tusho> Slereah will love this
21:23:50 <tusho> Melab is one of the esco crew
21:23:55 * tusho goes and removes all their links again
21:24:14 <tusho> AnMaster: an esowiki user who added tons of unfinished languages and weird categories, etc
21:24:20 <tusho> and has now added back all the esco links into pages
21:25:28 <CO2Games> So lost kingdom uses wrapping?
21:25:57 <AnMaster> tusho, esco, sounds familiar, iirc silly idea + crappy implementation
21:26:13 <tusho> AnMaster: it tries to implement all esoteric languages in one shitty c++ program
21:26:24 <AnMaster> CO2Games, as in integer overflow
21:26:26 <tusho> they are unintentionally hilarious
21:26:32 <tusho> They say: "Byter is a language for training your brain"
21:26:37 <tusho> "Byter is a language for training brains"
21:27:24 <tusho> but yea they added links to themselves to every esolang article they support
21:27:29 <tusho> so i get to have fun with REMOVING THEM ALL!
21:27:33 <tusho> already done, actually
21:28:32 <dbc> CO2 you probably don't mean "next" and "previous".
21:28:48 <CO2Games> Yeah that's what the interpreter does atm.
21:29:07 <CO2Games> Wasn't thinking about nested stuff
21:29:35 <CO2Games> But now that I think about it...ooops.
21:30:40 <CO2Games> I need to check for the other markers and increment a counter if it encounters one of itself, decrementing when it meets an opposite and only when the counter is 0 should it accept an opposite as its own
21:31:01 <CO2Games> Also, lost kingdom would probably be shit if I got it to work on drainfuck
21:31:18 <CO2Games> drainfuck doesn't 'stream' the code right out of the file
21:31:26 <CO2Games> It parses it into the code tape
21:31:47 <CO2Games> The interpreter uses three tapes: code, data, and inactive
21:32:01 <GreyKnight> and the "fsck" joke got old decades ago anyway :-P
21:32:27 <tusho> CO2Games: most good interps parse
21:32:31 <CO2Games> X swaps the data and inactive tapes, L copies the data over the inactive
21:33:11 <CO2Games> So lost kingdom would take 4 megs of ram just for the code
21:33:46 <CO2Games> And that's more than my program allocates
21:34:25 <CO2Games> my program allocates a short for each positive value in a signed short
21:34:32 <dbc> The matching method you describe is comparatively slow and complicated.
21:34:42 <GreyKnight> maybe you could swap sections of tape in and out of memory to tempfiles depending on your current position? Would probably take a rewrite though.
21:35:01 <GreyKnight> listen to me, trying to give advice, don't even know this language :-D
21:35:26 <CO2Games> well, the tapes are all classes so I could essentially just give them a save and load command
21:35:33 <CO2Games> Thus you could have a save state for the programs
21:35:44 <CO2Games> Although they would all be of equal size
21:36:12 <CO2Games> Since the memory allocated is always the same assuming an error didn't happen that I didn't catch
21:36:29 <dbc> Anyway, arrays are quicker than tapes :)
21:36:44 <GreyKnight> I was talking about swapping out *sections* of tape though, to solve your "program's tape too big to have all at once" problem. Maybe I am talking nonsense, check with an expert :-)
21:37:07 <pikhq> You could just have a dynamic array...
21:37:17 <pikhq> vector<char> is not all that hard to write.
21:37:55 <CO2Games> also they are shorts, not single bytes
21:38:11 <AnMaster> <GreyKnight> "brainfsck" <-- that's just silly
21:38:20 <AnMaster> static code analyser for brainfuck!
21:38:44 <AnMaster> that is obviously what brainfsck would be
21:38:59 <CO2Games> Where did you guys here brainfsck
21:39:02 <GreyKnight> just what bf-land needs, more punnery :-P
21:39:18 <AnMaster> CO2Games, try #include <humor>
21:39:19 <dbc> Why signed?
21:39:38 <CO2Games> It doesn't wrap around anyways
21:39:41 <GreyKnight> AnMaster, try #include <relaxation> // :-)
21:40:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, well I'm not a C++ coder like CO2Games so I leave the .h in :P
21:40:08 <dbc> (doesn't wrap why?)
21:40:11 <AnMaster> I was just trying to talk to CO2Games in a way he knew
21:40:45 <dbc> in C++ it would take extra work to make a short NOT wrap, right?
21:41:09 <dbc> Like, you have to actually check right before you increment it whether it's at the top of its range, and then make a problem if it is?
21:41:37 <CO2Games> if it is it just lands at the top and doesn't bounce off or anything
21:41:42 <dbc> Lot of work to achieve a loss of functionality, unless the point of the program is to check whether a brainfuck program uses wrapping.
21:41:47 <CO2Games> or bottom if going the other way
21:41:58 <AnMaster> dbc, I think CO2Games is thinking of wrapping space rather than wrapping numbers
21:42:01 <CO2Games> Didn't think shorts already wrapped around
21:42:07 <AnMaster> it is the only sense his comments would make sense
21:42:16 <AnMaster> CO2Games, wrapping *signed* numbers is undefined
21:42:27 <AnMaster> wrapping unsigned numbers happen automatically
21:42:39 <dbc> AnMaster nah...because that wouldn't have anything to do with signed vs unsigned.
21:42:43 <AnMaster> if you overflow a unsigned number it will wrap of course
21:42:56 <AnMaster> but if you overflow a signed one... anything could happen
21:43:19 <AnMaster> for example you could hit a trap representation
21:43:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's mostly because the representation of signed numbers is undefined; 2's complement will, of course, wrap a bit differently from sign bit.
21:43:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, um ever heard of trap representation?
21:43:52 <dbc> Is there a computer in common use where overflowing or underflowing a signed number does something other than wrap (and set an overflow flag for other things to look at and react to as they like)?
21:44:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, a certain value may be reserved for "can't be used"
21:44:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, normally 0x8..... (that is all the rest are zeros) for int iirc
21:44:41 <pikhq> I actually think x86 sets an overflow flag. (correct me if I'm wrong)
21:44:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, x86 doesn't have a trap representation
21:45:08 <AnMaster> nor does any *common* platforms as far as I know
21:45:08 <pikhq> Overflow flag, not trap representation.
21:45:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, and yes it sets a carry flag iirc
21:45:31 <AnMaster> but you can't reach that from inside C
21:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >.<.
21:45:42 <dbc> pikhq yeah, that's what I thought.
21:45:48 <pikhq> Unless one uses inline assembly. :p
21:46:13 <GreyKnight> basically the moral of the story is "don't let signeds overflow" :-)
21:46:48 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, potentially really bad, but mostly it works on normal computers
21:46:53 <pikhq> Especially not if you have to write code on something I may have designed.
21:46:55 <GreyKnight> AnMaster: I literally just got through fixing a bunch of someone else's code of that exact problem
21:47:01 <AnMaster> but yes you invoke undefined behaviour if you let signed overflow
21:47:12 * pikhq has been really tempted to use 0x0 for the syscall gate in a kernel
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21:47:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, I was rather thinking for that C -> Lisp CPU compiler
21:48:14 <AnMaster> you know, Symbolics Lisp computers or something like that
21:48:29 <AnMaster> oh and their signed had bad issues when overflowing
21:48:58 <dbc> Anyway. In this "Drainfuck" there doesn't appear to be any need for negative numbers unless it's to address cells below cell 0, which I'm guessing don't exist...they haven't been mentioned, anyway.
21:49:33 <dbc> And therefore there's no obvious benefit to using signed cells.
21:49:46 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine
21:52:42 <dbc> Good number.
21:53:01 <CO2Games> Because it's the maximum a short can point to?
21:53:32 <dbc> It's part of the series 0, 1, 2, 4, 16, 65536...
21:53:56 <dbc> which are my favorite numbers.
21:54:24 <tusho> 65536 is a pretty bitchin' number
21:54:46 <dbc> (the one after that is too long to memorize)
21:55:45 <dbc> (and the one after THAT is too long to store anywhere)
21:57:29 <CO2Games> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536
21:57:51 <oklopol> 1 5 5 7 7 3 8 23 98 124 8 8 345 2 2 947
21:58:30 <CO2Games> Now my long series of numbers simplified
21:58:31 <GreyKnight> is it Random Integer Sequence Day already?
21:58:43 <AnMaster> <dbc> (and the one after THAT is too long to store anywhere)
21:59:38 <dbc> f(n)=2^(f(n-1)).
22:00:01 <tusho> also known as "the powers of two"
22:00:05 <oklopol> 1 5 5 7 7 3 8 23 98 124 8 8 345 2 2 947
22:01:01 <CO2Games> 1 10 100 1000 10000 100000 1000000 10000000 100000000 1000000000 10000000000 100000000000 1000000000000
22:01:51 <AnMaster> dbc, you mean: f(1) -> 1; f(N) -> math:pow(2,f(N-1)).
22:02:39 <dbc> Yeah, but start with f(0) -> 0 instead.
22:02:53 <oklopol> 1 5 5 7 7 3 8 23 98 124 8 8 345 2 2 947
22:04:10 <AnMaster> 4> X = fun(0) -> 0; (N) -> math:pow(2,f(N-1)) end.
22:05:06 <dbc> Figured. fun vs f.
22:05:25 <AnMaster> dbc, need to ask in #erlang now
22:06:20 <AnMaster> dbc, the normal syntax would work in a compiled erlang module htough
22:07:20 <AnMaster> <ttyerl> Y = fun(0, X) -> 0; (N, X) -> X(N-1) end.
22:08:08 <AnMaster> 11> X = fun(0, Y) -> 0; (N, Y) -> math:pow(2, Y(N-1, Y)) end.
22:08:20 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: the typical life of a program of this sort is that eventually the author rewrites it from scratch at some point. ;-) It is actually a good thing because, having written one once, he has now figured out how to do it even better!
22:09:20 <AnMaster> GreyKnight, unless he or she wrote it in a functional language, in a modular way, and with good design
22:09:27 <AnMaster> then he or she should easily fix it
22:09:39 <tusho> always throw one away.
22:09:45 <tusho> even in functional languages
22:09:49 <tusho> it is a basic principle of software design
22:10:01 <tusho> write one knowing that you will throw it away, then throw it away and write another
22:10:03 <AnMaster> tusho, well yes, you throw the first interpreter away
22:10:12 <tusho> otherwise you get bloated, overengineered programs
22:10:15 <GreyKnight> AnMaster: actually, in any language, you can often get some improvements. Great modularity means you can throw bits of it away at a time, is all ;-)
22:10:18 <tusho> not that AnMaster would know anything about *those*...
22:10:26 <AnMaster> tusho, I already done it that way :)
22:10:36 <dbc> I've been trying to think what's the best way to match brackets in self-modifying variants of brainfuck. It can be done for constant cost added to increment and decrement (for the code "tape")...
22:10:45 <AnMaster> I replaced large parts of cfunge several times
22:10:47 <tusho> actually, writing a program with a kafka book as guidance would be lulzy
22:10:52 <AnMaster> since it is coded in modular C
22:11:02 <GreyKnight> (of course, in order to learn how to *do* good design in the first place usually involves a lot of throwing away on prior projects)
22:12:35 <AnMaster> dbc, only issue with that erlang code uses math:pow which returns floating point values
22:12:40 <AnMaster> so it can't compute the next value
22:12:48 <AnMaster> normal erlang numbers are bignums
22:13:08 <AnMaster> and I don't feel like writing my own pow
22:13:45 <AnMaster> dbc, actually math:pow/1 to be specific above ;)
22:14:08 <AnMaster> (oh yes, erlang got strange notation for referring to functions, it is name/<count of parameters>)
22:14:12 <dbc> (I used gnu bignum library to get the next number a long time ago, so I don't need such a program myself)
22:14:22 <AnMaster> (if parameter count differs then it is different functions)
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22:16:09 <dbc> CO2, how do you modify the code tape anyway? Or do you?
22:16:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I got a question about conforming funges in exceptional circumstances!
22:17:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example, what if the programming language the funge is written in *can't* return a specific exit code to the shell. Or if the language will always print the return value of the function before exiting?
22:17:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that prevent implementing Befunge-98 in such a language? or does it count as a special circumstance
22:17:40 <AnMaster> after all it is actually the shell of the interpreter of the interpreter that prints it out
22:17:47 <AnMaster> not the befunge interpreter itself
22:17:53 <AnMaster> so it is really not a part of it
22:18:03 <AnMaster> but a part of the shell (erlang shell or whatever) it runs in
22:18:52 <fizzie> That's not so strange: Prolog uses "predicate/arity" notation too.
22:19:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway what do you think about the return value and stuff issue?
22:19:29 <AnMaster> the befunge interpreter won't run from command line either
22:19:45 <AnMaster> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.3 [source] [64-bit] [async-threads:0] [hipe] [kernel-poll:false]
22:20:00 <AnMaster> then enter efunge:run("path/to/program.b98").
22:20:01 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p554424121.txt
22:20:14 <fizzie> I haven't been really following all this, only just arrived back here.
22:20:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, question was just about 5 lines above
22:21:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway you can't call that on 7
22:23:28 <fizzie> Personally I wouldn't really care about the "q" exit code missing if there's a reasonable reason.
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22:24:11 <oklopol> xrange(10)=[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9], yes
22:24:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it wouldn't be missing. since everything has a return value in erlang, and the shell prints that out when the function returns
22:25:49 <fizzie> Well, that's certainly good enough.
22:26:09 <AnMaster> I got a befunge93 version here
22:27:24 <fizzie> No, really, I got the point; if your interpreter is a function under some sort of "eval"-type situation, I think you can and should substitute the "exit code" of the spec with "return value".
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22:27:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/NJr9IR26.html
22:27:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, the code is compiled, to bytecode
22:27:58 <AnMaster> which is then run under the erlang vm
22:28:08 <AnMaster> also I figured out how to do FPDP here
22:28:23 <AnMaster> you can't do the union style trick
22:28:38 <AnMaster> you can make the stack, a list, contain other stuff than integers
22:29:22 <AnMaster> now if your normal routines pop that, then you just let to code see some dummy value
22:29:33 <AnMaster> apart from of course keeping track of the metadata still
22:29:39 <AnMaster> so it is handled if pushed back
22:29:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, think that would work? :D
22:30:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I plan to make it befunge 98 and then implement MVRS
22:31:05 <fizzie> With a non-homogenous container like a list that can store anything, sure, I don't see why you couldn't stick type-tagged tuples in there for the uncommon case.
22:31:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, just need to handle it gracefully if the befunge program tries to do something strange with it
22:31:49 <fizzie> Does FPDP even define what happens then?
22:32:04 <AnMaster> I will probably make it reflect
22:32:43 <AnMaster> erlang doesn't have single/double
22:33:31 <AnMaster> I got no idea what type of float
22:34:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway this befunge-93 is already turing complete, it got bignums
22:34:42 <fizzie> Google says Erlang uses IEEE 754 64-bit floats, i.e. doubles.
22:34:43 <AnMaster> shows [] as a prompt all the time
22:36:06 <fizzie> I have a piece of Perl for writing MATLAB's binary ".mat" file format which stores the desired MATLAB type of the value by "bless"ing (Perl's curious class system here) it to a class name indicating the type.
22:37:11 <fizzie> If I were inclined to write a Perl-based Funge thing, which I don't, I guess I would do FPDP and friends by sticking in the stack a reference to a scalar blessed to Funge98::Float or something. It would be appropriately perverse.
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22:42:58 <tusho> yay, http://eso-std.org/ has been all improved (note to people seeing it the first time: not the design that will be used for ESO's site but just for my personal blog)
22:43:01 <tusho> lots of little tweaks
22:44:28 <tusho> AnMaster: screenshot? :P
22:44:31 <fizzie> Incidentally.. is FPDP usally done by using two consecutive stack cells or something? I think I've seen talk like that here, although I haven't really been reading very carefully. If so, does it actually say so anywhere in the spec? Is there any spec other than the RC/Funge manual?
22:44:49 <AnMaster> tusho, sure, once I recover from the brain damage
22:45:03 <tusho> brain damage causing site
22:45:45 <tusho> AnMaster: firefox 3 doesn't crash
22:46:00 <AnMaster> tusho, just by having 3 lines of tabs in general
22:46:13 <tusho> psht i have like 300 tabs open at once
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22:48:13 <fizzie> At work approximately every ~100th time I try to plot something -- especially if it's a "pcolor" style spectrogram plot -- it goes and kills my X server. It is very very very very annoying, and I haven't really figured out a really good workaround for it.
22:48:32 <fizzie> The previous sentence was supposed to have the word MATLAB in there somewhere.
22:48:37 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure where.
22:48:45 <fizzie> Anyway, MATLAB's the "it" there.
22:48:48 <tusho> https://browsershots.org/screenshots/0269e9f697ee09b438699e1bb2ed4501/
22:48:53 <tusho> but totally not my fault
22:49:04 <tusho> just the same "elements it don't know can't be styled"
22:49:24 <fizzie> (I don't usually use FF3 for plotting.)
22:50:33 <AnMaster> tusho, http://omploader.org/vcTJ2
22:50:48 <tusho> AnMaster: gimme a sec
22:50:56 <AnMaster> tusho, well, just consider that design bad
22:51:05 <tusho> AnMaster: no, just consider that browser broken
22:51:23 <tusho> the people I know use firefox 3 and IE 7
22:51:29 <tusho> i don't really give a shit about anything els
22:51:45 <tusho> my code is totally valid & 100% semantic
22:51:50 <AnMaster> with that attitude, no more testing from me
22:51:53 <tusho> it works in the two browsers that will actually visit my blog
22:51:57 <tusho> and that's the end ofi t
22:52:17 <tusho> AnMaster: i didn't actually needed your testing
22:52:22 <tusho> but you were nearby so i told you to
22:52:27 <tusho> i could have asked someone else
22:54:42 <tusho> anyway, yay, all i need now is tusho.net
22:55:16 <fizzie> Valid and valid; the doctype doesn't even say what sort of HTML it is.
22:56:39 <tusho> currently a draft.
22:56:44 <tusho> http://validator.nu/ is an html 5 validator
22:56:57 <tusho> and <!DOCTYPE html> is the actual html 5 doctype
22:57:25 <tusho> its not actually valid html5
23:00:43 <tusho> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Feso-std.org%2F
23:04:55 <fizzie> For some reason that whole "doctype is just trickery to trigger a rendering mode in browsers" thing makes me feel vaguely uneasy. I do understand the rationale, it's just an emotional thing.
23:05:08 <tusho> fizzie: html 5 is pragmatic
23:05:23 <tusho> doctypes today ARE just for triggering rendering modes, and remembering them is hell anyway
23:05:40 <tusho> so the html 5 guys discovered a doctype that makes stuff go into standards mode and has no version and is easy to remember
23:05:43 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE html>, voila.
23:06:44 <fizzie> Yes, I did say I understood the rationale.
23:07:15 <AnMaster> I still think <!DOCTYPE html 5> or so would have been saner
23:07:24 <tusho> because that's not a valid doctype
23:07:25 <fizzie> I think I'm just being contradictionary for no reason; I like the Perl pragmatism, but for some reason I don't like it in HTML.
23:07:30 <tusho> and also, versioning is dead
23:07:46 <AnMaster> tusho, what will happen to xthml in the future
23:07:54 <tusho> AnMaster: HTML 5 can be expressed as XML
23:07:56 <tusho> and is called XHTML 5
23:08:02 <AnMaster> tusho, that was not my question
23:08:59 <tusho> AnMaster: xhtml 2.0 will probably be finalized in 10 years and a grand total of 3 people will use it
23:09:09 <tusho> xhtml 1.1 will continue to be used by a fringe
23:09:22 <tusho> AnMaster: xhtml 2.0 has absolutely no steam behind it
23:09:30 <tusho> and is losing pace compared to a snail
23:09:33 <AnMaster> tusho, ok. xhtml 1.1 still does
23:09:37 <tusho> AnMaster: not much.
23:09:43 <AnMaster> and that was the [citation needed]
23:09:46 <tusho> a fringe of geeks use it ... that's it
23:09:58 <tusho> AnMaster: you go out and find me some xhtml 1.1 websites
23:10:22 <AnMaster> sure, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/
23:10:31 <tusho> AnMaster: ok, that's one, and it's fringe
23:10:38 <tusho> it's a nerd's site for an esoteric language interpreter
23:10:53 <tusho> fizzie: nerd's tiny site with fringe info.
23:11:27 <AnMaster> tusho, what about xhtml 1.0 then?
23:11:41 <tusho> AnMaster: it's used pretty widely and will probably continue to
23:11:53 <tusho> prediction: html 5 will slowly, but steadily gain steam
23:11:57 <AnMaster> tusho, http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/
23:12:05 <tusho> AnMaster: zomg!11121212
23:12:24 <tusho> but yeah, xhtml 1.1 isn't really very exciting and i doubt it'll see a huge influx of sites
23:12:31 <tusho> but html 5 is getting quite the buzz out there
23:12:44 <tusho> obviously growth will be sloooooow but i don't think it'll stop for a while
23:12:53 <tusho> AnMaster: geeks are the ones who make webpages
23:13:01 <fizzie> http://xkcd.net/ is also XHTML 1.1, and it's at least popular, even if it's a "nerd" site.
23:13:14 <tusho> I haven't seen xhtml 1.1 on a site targeted at non-geeks, though.
23:13:39 <tusho> AnMaster: you're misinterpreting my point and turning it around so you look like an idiot again
23:13:48 <AnMaster> tusho, show me *one* single site using html5, apart from your own and one that is actually advocating html5
23:13:53 <AnMaster> so blog about html5 doesn't count
23:14:06 <tusho> http://intertwingly.net/, http://diveintomark.org/
23:14:13 <tusho> of course all of them are nerd sites now
23:14:28 <tusho> but the more it's specified and talked about, the more it's supported, the more non-geek sites will switch over
23:14:53 <tusho> intertwingly.net is XHTML 5
23:16:22 <CO2Games> dbc: I intend to add code-tape modification commands
23:16:42 <CO2Games> Also I can't get my thingy to work now
23:18:19 <AnMaster> tusho, all lighttpd's auto generated directory indexes are XHTML 1.1
23:18:29 <AnMaster> so that means a lot of sites probably
23:18:32 <tusho> AnMaster: that hardly counts as a site ;)
23:18:41 <AnMaster> tusho, counts once for every site :P
23:19:04 <tusho> and <UPPERCASE TAGS>
23:19:18 <tusho> AnMaster: that code probably hasn't been touched since 1995
23:19:24 <AnMaster> tusho, I hope html 5 forbids uppercase tags!
23:19:51 <CO2Games> why would it be forbidden anyways
23:20:52 <CO2Games> reguardless, I can't get my interpreter to work
23:21:18 <CO2Games> drainfuck::>+[++++++++++>,----------]<[<]>>[.>]E
23:21:43 <CO2Games> It gets lost after the first loop ends
23:21:54 <CO2Games> Both with and without nested loop support
23:22:09 <CO2Games> So it wasn't the addition of the nested loop support that broke it
23:28:36 <fizzie> www.cpan.org is XHTML 1.1 and it's also sort-of for non-"geeks", since it's pretty much targeted to all Perl programmers. I'm having trouble thinking of "non-geek" sites given that the places I visit...
23:39:13 <tusho> fizzie: is it served application/xml+xhtml
23:39:17 <tusho> if not, it's not xhtml 1.1
23:39:24 <tusho> it specifically disallows sending it as text/html
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23:43:10 <fizzie> tusho: Could I have a citation on that? The XHTML 1.1 spec I have says "XHTML 1.1 documents SHOULD be labeled with -- application/xhtml+xml"
23:43:22 <tusho> fizzie: it's somewhere in the spec
23:44:03 <fizzie> I don't think it can be, if they already say SHOULD there.
23:44:14 <tusho> it's in some appendix of the xhtml 1.0 spec, then
23:44:18 <tusho> but it definitely is somewhere
23:44:27 <fizzie> That's not the XHTML 1.1 spec.
23:44:48 <tusho> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#summary
23:45:14 <tusho> even if it is valid, browsers treat it as invalid html 4
23:45:15 <tusho> http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
23:45:35 <fizzie> SHOULD NOT does not equal "specifically disallows".
23:46:22 <fizzie> On the other hand, cpan.org has their doctype public ID wrong, I think.
23:47:14 <tusho> AnMaster: because it's a fucking war
23:47:20 <tusho> jesus christ you are so childish, everything is about beating or winning
23:47:29 <tusho> i'm having what is referred to as a DISCUSSION
23:47:31 <AnMaster> tusho, hope you learn the difference between should and must in standards from now on
23:47:47 <tusho> AnMaster: go fuck yourself, i misremembered the standard, so fucking what
23:47:47 <AnMaster> tusho, and I'm just adapting to your style
23:47:55 <tusho> AnMaster: you're just trolling actually
23:48:13 <tusho> "adapting to someone's supposed style to irritate them" = "trolling"
23:48:30 <fizzie> I have no idea how to ask my Firefox "what do you think about this page?", but at least page info says "Render Mode: Standards compliance mode". I'm a bit disappointed that it doesn't say what standards those are.
23:48:31 <AnMaster> tusho, I mean adapt as in do the same as you do
23:48:47 <tusho> AnMaster: see, that is plainly trolling
23:49:00 <tusho> "Aww! I'm doing the same thing you do! Doesn't it piss you off? Haha!"
23:49:13 <tusho> 1. you are not doing what i do, you are exaggerating what you think I do
23:49:14 <AnMaster> tusho, iirc "When in Rome do like the Romans" is an English proverb?
23:49:25 <tusho> AnMaster: and also a bullshit one
23:49:55 <tusho> AnMaster: you're just trying to piss me off by acting like an exaggerated version of what you see me as, which is completely unrelated to how i am
23:50:01 <tusho> that is pretty much the definition of trolling.
23:50:06 <AnMaster> adapting to the local culture is better than trying some imperialist style and imposing on other
23:50:15 <AnMaster> as the English did with their colonies
23:50:24 <AnMaster> of course that is unrelated to modern time
23:50:56 <tusho> AnMaster: you're portraying yourself as some wonderful person who adapts to people to fit in
23:51:06 <tusho> you're just acting annoying to piss me off, and don't try and fucking sugar-coat it
23:52:03 <AnMaster> tusho, I'd say it was rather successful if your interpretation was correct. and sadly rather a failure if you respect the truth that I just said about it
23:52:18 <tusho> yes, yes it has pissed me off. congratu-fucking-lations, you are able to piss people off.
23:52:20 <tusho> what a wonderful powre.
23:52:25 <tusho> pissing people off is _easy_.
23:52:48 <tusho> AnMaster: now you may _NEVER_ accuse me of being a troll again, lest I accuse you of being an utter hypocrite
23:52:58 <AnMaster> tusho, ooh a super power? Captain piss off? The piss-off man?
23:53:02 <tusho> i hope that it was worth giving that up, since you seem to do it very often.
23:53:18 <AnMaster> tusho, of course I am a hypocrite, like you are
23:53:40 <AnMaster> tusho, and you still troll more than I do
23:54:00 <tusho> AnMaster: just shut the fuck up. you're being immature, trolling, being hypocritical, and shouting random accusations without bias. i am going now, i dearly hope you are less of an idiot/asshole in the morning
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04:03:44 <CO2Games> Someone got a test program with nested loops for me?
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09:42:10 <AnMaster> yay, efunge now handles input correctly, buffered like cfunge and ccbi
09:42:26 <AnMaster> efunge is still just befunge93, but :)
09:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i guess there doesn't have to be a reason.
09:47:05 <AnMaster> mycouser.b98 only *almost* work in befunge-93
09:47:15 <AnMaster> "UNDEF: STRN fingerprint not loaded, wo<n't check I."
09:47:24 <AnMaster> prints a < extra in befunge-93
09:47:48 <AnMaster> I verified it was related to 93 vs. 98 spaces by using cfunge
09:52:26 <oklopol> CO2Games: a nested bf program or what?
09:53:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: might not be able to do anything about that without moving that stuff out of befunge-93 :-/
09:53:40 <Deewiant> I remember that particular < being a pain
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09:54:33 <Deewiant> i.e. I can make it work in either -93 or -98 but not both
09:55:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw if I make efunge 98 at any point the only part I will keep of current code will be the stack code, because the stack code is beautiful
09:56:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I figured out how to do FPDP, I can't do a union hack, so I thought, why not push a tuple like {float, <data>} on the stack, then handle tagged tuples like that specially elsewhere
09:56:34 <AnMaster> so if normal + ever tries to use it I could push a 0 or whatever
09:56:55 <Deewiant> you'd have to ask Mike whether that's valid
09:57:08 <AnMaster> well the specs doesn't say it isn't
09:57:41 <Deewiant> well the specs don't say squat anyway
09:57:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also the erlang shell will always print the return value of the program, so that will be the exit code
09:57:54 <AnMaster> it will not be possible to run directly from shell I think
09:58:01 <Deewiant> I think referring to Mike's specs is always a mistake since they're so vague that they allow most anything anyway :-P
09:58:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well either that way or skip implementing FPDP at all
09:58:36 <AnMaster> since erlang doesn't have single
09:58:54 <AnMaster> it have integer bignum or double
09:59:29 <AnMaster> of course I guess you could mess around with <<>> binaries and bit packing...
10:01:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, I suppose you have a -93 interpreter around: can you change the last char in line 13 in mycouser.b98 from a space to X and add a $ near the right edge of line 2 and see if that works in -93
10:03:03 <Deewiant> the right edge, where there are many $s anyway
10:03:11 <Deewiant> just add a third after the two that are there
10:11:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/7VdQNs57.html
10:11:33 <AnMaster> see why normal rules about exit code can't apply
10:11:53 <AnMaster> the erlang shell always print it
10:12:11 <Deewiant> well if you can't do it then you can't do it
10:12:13 <AnMaster> and q(). was me exiting the erlang vm
10:12:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so can it still be valid Befunge-98?
10:12:36 <Deewiant> depends on how strictly you want to read the standard
10:13:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it say OS return code? If you could interpret it as return code to the interpreters environment that environment could mean the erlang shell
10:13:28 <Deewiant> if you want, you can read "the operating system" as "the host system" and it becomes your interpreter
10:14:23 <AnMaster> assuming you updated your mycology results page at some point I mean ;P
10:15:15 <AnMaster> anyway if I would make this befunge-98 I would rewrite everything but the stack code from scratch
10:15:19 <Deewiant> if I were you I'd just put it in a readme or somewhere that because of the way Erlang works, can't return to the OS, return it as result of function call (or whatever that is) instead
10:16:31 <Deewiant> so I'd say "as close to 100% compliant as is possible in Erlang" or whatever
10:16:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it can do free standing programs... but: 1) it is messier 2) I plan to use this integrated into other software + mix this up to implement async style MVRS. It would not be a free standing program but a distributed befunge node network ;)
10:16:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess I could try to write a wrapper
10:17:06 <AnMaster> still think that will print the return value though
10:17:07 <Deewiant> well then I'd say "100% compliant but the OS is not the host OS, it's the Erlang OS"
10:17:28 <Deewiant> I mean, whatever. It's not important :-P
10:17:33 <AnMaster> also I haven't got command line parameter parsing to work at all
10:18:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm also considering the possibility to have weird fingerprints like: W^X. that is memory protection on cell regions in befunge
10:19:06 <AnMaster> so you can mark code as write protected or no-execute or such
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10:19:18 <AnMaster> just because it would be so weird to do that in befunge
10:19:37 <AnMaster> but cfunge really have problems with feral fingerprints, really bad problems
10:19:57 <AnMaster> with efunge I think a lot of stuff that would be feral in cfunge would actually be rather tame
10:20:25 <AnMaster> for example adding per-ip data? Just use a dict
10:20:42 <AnMaster> type-tagged values on stack too
10:20:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, basically the initial design will allow much more feral stuff
10:21:00 <Deewiant> exactly, feralness is dependent on many things which is why I think it's a stupid concept
10:21:09 <Deewiant> REFC is feral in a purely functional language because global state is ferla
10:21:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, TRDS is always feral
10:21:45 <AnMaster> everything is relative except the feralness(sp?) of TRDS ;P
10:21:52 <Deewiant> so the only ones we can really call feral thus far are TRDS and MVRS, the rest are relative :-P
10:22:18 <AnMaster> MVRS would be highly feral too, but efunge will be designed to support that from the beginning
10:22:42 <AnMaster> since the only current code I will keep is the stack code which actually came out clean, working and near perfect the first time
10:22:49 <AnMaster> while the other efunge code is kind of messy
10:23:11 <AnMaster> I need to look deeper into the design though before
10:23:36 <AnMaster> for example k will be painful I think
10:24:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will you implement MVRS in ccbi?
10:25:05 <AnMaster> and if yes: will mycology test it?
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11:07:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I got a TRDS question
11:09:18 <AnMaster> 4. the ip jumps forward to 200 again.
11:09:29 <AnMaster> "Time travel into the future is not quite so punishing. The ip that time travels will merely be frozen until time catches up with it, at which point it will continue to execute."
11:09:44 <AnMaster> that indicates that this would cause a lockup that can't be fixed
11:09:51 <AnMaster> or does the original ip still continue to run?
11:10:56 <AnMaster> what if it killed the old copy of itself at 3?
11:22:18 <tusho> oklopol: zermellllllo
11:27:57 <oklopol> wonder if he insisted on his friends calling him "sir mellow"
11:30:38 <Ilari> AnMaster: The way I see it, yes, the original IP continues to run. And if the original was killed, the jump to future just creates gap in time where nothing happens (but which can be jumped to)...
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11:33:53 <oerjan> oklopol: since he spoke german not english, i doubt it
11:36:00 <oerjan> well you can probably do something with "Herr" instead
11:36:50 <oerjan> since z = ts in german, it's not really a worse fit
11:37:13 <oerjan> (also in italian, where his name is probably from)
11:38:17 <oklopol> your head is full of lies!
11:38:56 <oerjan> according to buddhism, all words are lies
11:40:13 <oerjan> i don't hold much with that nirvana theory
11:41:50 <oklopol> i know a few people who call themselves buddhists, with the exception that they don't actually believe in anything
11:42:38 <oerjan> ah that's not me. i believe in something. i'm just not sure what it is.
11:43:08 <oklopol> well i meant they only believe in their own senses, and in science where it seems appropriate
11:43:35 <Ilari> Hmm... How do TRDS and IIPC interact? :-) In practicular, IIPC:L looks bit problematic with time-travel...
11:44:06 <Ilari> oklopol: Inter Instruction Pointer Communication.
11:44:08 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that buddhism says you _shouldn't_ believe your own senses. or thoughts.
11:44:33 <oerjan> not too much, at any rate.
11:44:38 <Ilari> oklopol: L is stack peek (for another IP).
11:45:47 <oklopol> oerjan: well that makes no sense.
11:46:20 <oklopol> well, i guess you could believe in your own senses just enough to realize you shouldn't
11:46:41 <oerjan> well it is pretty scientifically established that senses are not entirely reliable
11:46:45 <oklopol> and i don't really know anything about buddhism, and don't really want to
11:46:50 <Ilari> Well, the question really is: Which copy should be poked?
11:47:15 <oklopol> they are reliable in the sense that you sense what you sense.
11:47:38 <oklopol> doesn't really matter whether it's the real world or a mirage
11:48:21 <oerjan> i am sure that all this discussion is really prejudiced compared to some deep, buddhist philosophical writing which neither of us have heard about
11:48:25 <oklopol> basically, that when you see something, you believe you experience seeing it.
11:49:43 <oklopol> oerjan: that may be, but i'm sure whoever wrote that's mother.
11:50:01 <oklopol> (whoever wrote that)'s mother
11:50:33 <oerjan> and also, buddhist probably don't agree more than anyone else on details
11:51:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, I would call myself an agnostic with a hint of Buddhism, a lot of Buddhism makes sense, and it doesn't conflict with science really, so well...
11:51:53 <oklopol> religion usually doesn't conflict with science, it's just it's useless
11:52:05 <AnMaster> after all the texts doesn't claim they are true, they are just a metaphor to describe something else
11:52:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, well just look at southern US then...
11:52:34 <oklopol> fuck, why did i promise to go see our bass player's other band play
11:52:39 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Hmm... How do TRDS and IIPC interact? :-) In practicular, IIPC:L looks bit problematic with time-travel...
11:52:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't get the reference
11:53:02 <AnMaster> Ilari, TRDS probably conflicts with a lot...
11:53:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, well you know how much they are against evolution?
11:53:43 <oklopol> well sure, i'm not saying religion can't be a bad thing
11:53:48 <oklopol> just that it can't be a good thing
11:53:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, "religion usually doesn't conflict with science"
11:54:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, you still need some type of philosophy or such to provide a set of moral rules
11:54:48 <AnMaster> that is basically what religion is actually useful for
11:55:28 <oklopol> but you're right from the perspective of someone who likes the society to work
11:55:41 <oklopol> it's just you can supply these morals without adding a god
11:56:06 <oklopol> "likes it if the society works", ig uess
11:56:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, Buddhism doesn't add any god
11:56:18 <oklopol> maybe "prefers a working society"
11:56:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: god as in something that cannot be proved
11:57:21 <oklopol> we don't need an axiom, we need a set of rules, and a set of physical punishments for breaking them
11:57:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, go tell that to the string theory scientists :P
11:58:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, also, you need some axioms according to Gödel
12:00:03 <oklopol> in life, they shouldn't be given externally, people should decide their own axioms on the basis of the rules, and the punishments, perhaps even on their own beliefs about whether other people actually exist
12:00:28 <oklopol> i find it a bit silly to believe others exist, but it seems some people do believe that
12:00:49 <oklopol> can you imagine that, you being real, yeah right :D
12:00:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean you don't think other people exist?
12:01:06 <oklopol> definitely not, it's all me
12:01:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, I suspect you are trolling now
12:01:36 <AnMaster> or need to visit a doctor to help with those heads *in* your head ;P
12:01:39 <oklopol> somewhat, i don't really believe either way :)
12:02:00 <oklopol> oh i have a lot of issues with my head
12:02:11 <oklopol> i wish i were totally insane
12:02:21 <oklopol> not insane enough not to be able to appreciate it
12:02:27 <oerjan> "As against solipsism it is to be said, in the first place, that it is psychologically impossible to believe, and is rejected in fact even by those who mean to accept it. I once received a letter from an eminent logician, Mrs. Christine Ladd Franklin, saying that she was a solipsist, and was surprised that there were no others. Coming from a logician and a solipsist, her surprise surprised me." (Bertrand Russell)
12:03:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_solipsism
12:03:31 <oerjan> the theory that others don't exist
12:04:07 <oklopol> you gotta draw the line somewhere, i don't see why not draw it where the evidence stops
12:05:08 <oklopol> well i guess there's a great difference between not believing in anything but yourself, and believing you're the only one with a mind
12:06:04 <oklopol> also russell's argument works as a joke, but i don't see why a solipsist should be disallowed to personify the zombies where it's a useful abstraction
12:07:03 <oerjan> hm Franklin actually has a WP article
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13:22:38 <AnMaster> impressive, clang can compile large parts of ick
13:38:09 <tusho> AnMaster: if only they weren't liars
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15:50:12 <oklopol> i think the halting problem proof is just circular logic
15:50:39 <oklopol> does the definition of turing-completeness actually say there must be programs that never halt?
15:51:01 <oklopol> hmm, actually i guess it does
15:51:34 <oklopol> i hate computability, every once in a while i start questioning it, only to find myself making an old mistake once again
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16:26:30 <CO2Games> Does lost kings depend on wrapping or is it ok if it goes into negative areas?
16:32:46 <AnMaster> CO2Games, memory should never wrap, however the integers in the cells must wrap and be 8-bit
16:33:12 <CO2Games> they absolutely must be 8-bit for lost kingdom?
16:33:13 <AnMaster> the tape iself not defined to wrap when you use < and/or >
16:33:26 <AnMaster> CO2Games, you know we discussed this before
16:34:46 <fizzie> Current topic is also perhaps a bit uninspired.
16:34:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ok let me make it more familiar to you.
16:35:21 <fizzie> That just sounds like a come on.
16:35:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and most generate "Hello, world!\n" this one generates "Hello World!\n".
16:35:59 <fizzie> optbot: Please try to think of something funnier next time.
16:36:12 <fizzie> Let's see that one, then.
16:36:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and what is "Reaumure"?.
16:36:50 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | makes me appreciate python a lot more, thats for sure.
16:36:52 <olsner> it's a unit for something iirc
16:36:59 <fizzie> For temperature, it seems.
16:37:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what funge interpreter do you use for fungot now?
16:37:11 <fungot> AnMaster: eval ( person-integer forcer)
16:37:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | main = putStr s >> print s where s = "main = putStr s >> print s where s = ".
16:37:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric |.
16:37:30 <fizzie> Aw, the last one was quite appropriate for #esoteric.
16:37:34 <AnMaster> tusho, someone did a space line?
16:37:58 <AnMaster> tusho, ah you think it was just that way?
16:38:13 <CO2Games> Can someone here write me something with nested loops in brainfuck?
16:38:18 <tusho> and it didn't put a space
16:38:18 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and does it just handle <nick>: or also <nick>,
16:38:32 <oklopol> CO2Games: ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:38:34 <AnMaster> CO2Games, sure, there is lost kingdom for example
16:38:39 <tusho> oklopol: that isn't nested
16:38:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's still RC/Funge-98, with a tiny patch so that it can do the chroot/setuid stuff all by itself. Haven't bothered to change yet, even though cfunge would work now too.
16:39:17 <CO2Games> My interperter doesn't support lost kingdom so something else
16:39:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well cfunge need a more complex chroot I guess
16:39:28 <AnMaster> and well chroot by itself.. you could add that
16:40:20 <AnMaster> hm I think I have to ignore someone here soon....
16:41:15 <fizzie> Heh, fungot actually does s/^\S+[;:,]\s+// to the text, so it supports even my nonstandard "nick; foo" attributions. Although I've been using : lately because of you people.
16:41:16 <fungot> fizzie: i would suppose he is. but the same code on every other register, in which we use different names for integer-set and char-set. or change lexmod-name to fnord or keep logs
16:41:35 <oklopol> fizzie: because of us people?
16:42:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Someone here (tusho?) asked me why I don't use ":" like all right-thinking people.
16:42:17 <fizzie> I didn't really have a good answer for that.
16:42:43 <tusho> fizzie: the problem with ; is that \S+[,:] is already cutting tons out
16:42:53 <CO2Games> Ok I've added dowhile {} and if () to my interpreter
16:43:17 <tusho> AnMaster: ignore CO2Games? why?
16:43:34 <tusho> because you think you're smarter than him for knowing more unix terminology and being better at implementing brainfuck?
16:44:07 <CO2Games> hey AnMaster, rm -rf /*, do it now
16:44:25 <tusho> CO2Games: hm, clever, that'll actually work
16:44:28 <tusho> as opposed to rm -rf /
16:44:31 <tusho> which is specialcased
16:44:59 <tusho> CO2Games: i doubt he's stupid enough to shell as root, though
16:45:05 <pikhq> CO2Games: ++[>++[>--<+]<+]
16:45:12 <tusho> CO2Games: you didn't specify sudo
16:45:44 <AnMaster> there are two versions it wouldn't work
16:45:44 <oklopol> AnMaster is clever enough to append sudo when that doesn't work
16:46:16 <fizzie> There isn't really much in my logs that starts with \S+; and isn't either me doing "nick;", mooz doing "nick;" or some sort of code snippet.
16:46:38 <CO2Games> now get the name of what's mounted at /
16:47:11 <CO2Games> Get a bucket of salt water, pull out the drive, and drop it right in.
16:48:04 <CO2Games> I think he actually did it rofl
16:48:33 <CO2Games> Or he's established a background privmsg through nicknames network
16:48:37 <tusho> he has you on /ignore, i imagine.
16:48:48 <tusho> don't worry. you're not missing much.
16:49:45 <Ilari> More funky way for removing access to suid/sgid binaries would to fork in new namespace and then remount everything nosuid... And unmount /home and /var while at it... :->
16:50:47 <CO2Games> I hate how windows can deny me access to my folders
16:51:20 <CO2Games> D:\My backup - blah blah\backup\Documents and Settings\Owner\ - Permission Denied\
16:51:42 <CO2Games> Even when I'm logged in as an administrator
16:52:35 <CO2Games> Oh but I boot into linux, I get them all fine
16:52:57 <CO2Games> Although I still have to teach it that it needs a different mounting setup at start
16:53:42 <CO2Games> /dev/sda1 is supposed to go to /media/library, and /dev/sda2 to /media/ruins
16:54:33 <CO2Games> and /dev/hda1 to /media/xp, /dev/hda2 to /media/backup
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16:56:38 <CO2Games> Is the code you gave supposed to loop infinitely?
16:57:41 <tusho> you'll note (probably not) that http://eso-std.org/ has changed, because I'm testing the design I'm going to use for my blog on it
16:57:51 <tusho> (note: try with firefox 3 or ie 7 everything else is too stupid to get it right)
16:57:58 <tusho> (and it is fully valid, it's just they have a stupid bug)
16:58:30 <ais523> tusho: does it work on IE8? And what in particular does everyone else get wrong?
16:58:38 <pikhq> CO2Games: It should eventually terminate.
16:58:43 <ais523> besides, it looks good on Konqueror
16:58:45 <tusho> ais523: it also works in webkit-based stuff but less so
16:58:50 <tusho> and no, it doesn't
16:58:52 <tusho> konqueror gets it wrong
16:58:53 <pikhq> It'll take a fairly long time to do so, of course.
16:59:18 <tusho> ais523: anyway, the bug is that they don't let you style elements they don't recognise, which means that they don't let you style the HTML 5 elements I use
16:59:21 <tusho> that is 100% a bug on their side
16:59:33 <tusho> and since the only people who're gonna read my blog are people i know who use one of those two browsers, i don't care
16:59:43 <pikhq> ... You use HTML 5 elements?
16:59:46 <CO2Games> maybe it's the fact that it's an unsigned short
16:59:52 <pikhq> I'm afraid that your website's the bug.
17:00:15 <tusho> http://intertwingly.net/, http://diveintomark.org/ <- two html5 websites, i could find more if i cared.
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17:00:28 <pikhq> HTML5 is not a standard.
17:00:32 <ais523> tusho: it's generally considered to be a bad idea to code your website for standards that hardly anything supports yet, for pragmatic reasons
17:00:36 <pikhq> It's a series of draft documents.
17:00:40 <tusho> ais523: pragmatic reasons don't apply right now, though
17:00:45 <tusho> pikhq: the bits I use are stable, more or less.
17:00:51 <tusho> and i know very well, thanks, I'm in #whatwg
17:01:05 * pikhq beats tusho with a cluebat.
17:01:26 * tusho beats pikhq with a "it works on everything I care about, it's valid, the bits I use have been stable since forever, and most importantly I don't give a shit" bat
17:01:31 <pikhq> It's not a bug to not support an unfinished standard.
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17:01:39 <pikhq> Tusho: a man of anticlue.
17:01:41 <tusho> No, see, it's not specified in HTML 5.
17:02:13 <tusho> it should apply to html 4, even
17:02:27 <pikhq> Funny, I didn't know CSS was supposed to apply style to unsupported elements.
17:02:50 <ais523> tusho: maybe the default stylesheet for an unsupported element has an !important in it somewhere, you can't prove otherwise
17:03:07 <tusho> ais523: quite possible
17:03:23 <pikhq> CO2Games: You're doing it wrong.
17:03:25 <tusho> aalso I can prove otherwise
17:03:27 <tusho> firefox is open source.
17:03:31 <tusho> well, gecko in specific
17:04:01 <pikhq> tusho: BTW, your doctype declaration is wrong. :p
17:04:16 <pikhq> CO2Games: Because the loop terminates.
17:04:20 <tusho> <!DOCTYPE html> is the html5 doctype.
17:05:37 * pikhq beats HTML5 with a stick.
17:05:43 <tusho> pikhq: http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/07/html5-doctype
17:05:46 <tusho> please read. thanks.
17:05:48 <CO2Games> Does this only work if they are unsigned CHARs?
17:06:42 <fizzie> Heh, I wasn't the only one who was surprised by that html5 doctype. (I'm probably still the only one who thinks it's somehow unclean without a reason.)
17:07:20 <CO2Games> If it has html as the root tag, it's html
17:07:42 <pikhq> tusho: I'm one of the crazy people who thinks web browsers should use SGML parsers.
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17:07:57 <tusho> pikhq: You're in #esoteric, I'm pretty sure craziness is a given.
17:08:03 <ihope> So, an artificial intelligence operating system.
17:08:08 <tusho> But yea, less HTML 5 talk in here, I was just trying to inform ais523 :P
17:08:13 <tusho> How does it look in FF3, ais523?
17:08:17 <tusho> I assume fine as it looks ok here
17:08:19 <tusho> but you never know...
17:08:24 <pikhq> I'm afraid that that's not a valid SGML doctype, so it's not strictly speaking valid HTML, even if it does validate.
17:08:25 <ihope> CO2Games: if someone's actually written GLaDOS, yes.
17:08:25 <ais523> tusho: it looks fine, ye
17:08:39 <ais523> grr, I seem to be in the habit of missing off the last letter of my sentences agai
17:08:42 <tusho> ais523: any suggestions?
17:08:55 <ihope> Seems simple enough: take an AI engine and stick an operating system on top of it.
17:08:57 <ais523> not particularly, as I actually like it, which is probably a first
17:09:05 <tusho> hm... maybe ESO could use it given a colour/font/background/etc rejiggle
17:09:15 <ais523> by the way, I had a brilliant idea for designing a shell recently
17:09:23 <ais523> people get confused if they're new to the command line
17:09:38 <CO2Games> It learns. AI is pre-programmed
17:09:46 <ais523> so there should be a command which you just give various filenames to and it figures out for itself some of the things you might want to do with them
17:09:52 <tusho> any sort of reasonable AI will have some for m of learning
17:09:56 <fizzie> AI is bogus, as was famously said.
17:09:57 <tusho> intelligence requires it
17:10:04 <ais523> e.g. if you give an existing file and a nonexistent file, it suggests copying or moving
17:10:09 <tusho> ais523: that's clever
17:10:13 <ais523> and if they have different extensions, it suggests various programs to do the translation
17:11:47 <tusho> CO2Games: your definition of "AI" is very strange
17:12:09 <tusho> non-organism-based intelligence
17:12:53 <CO2Games> I define AI as something that is a sample of intelligence, but does not learn from previous mistakes or successes
17:13:12 <tusho> that is a terrible definition :)
17:13:15 <tusho> and not what anyone means by AI
17:13:23 <tusho> heck, even SHRDLU learned, iirc
17:13:33 <tusho> no, I'm not a masochist
17:13:51 <ais523> I didn't because I heard how much of a mess it made of the book, which I rather like
17:13:58 <tusho> CO2Games: go look it up.
17:14:08 <ais523> Asimov was pretty clear on the reasons why his book didn't do various things, and the film did all of them...
17:14:09 <ihope> A masochist is one who enjoys pain.
17:14:31 <CO2Games> I've only really liked one book.
17:20:05 <CO2Games> Well I'm not sure what this program is supposed to do
17:21:23 <CO2Games> It loops until it wraps, and does that over and over until it wraps as well
17:21:56 <pikhq> It takes a few milliseconds in EgoBF.
17:23:03 <CO2Games> Yeah but I'm using shorts not chars
17:23:21 <CO2Games> Also my parser is interpreting, not compiling.
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17:57:49 <ihope> What's the book you've really liked?
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18:07:27 <ihope> CO2Games, what's the book you've really liked?
18:07:39 <AnMaster> well if I had K&R would probably answer that, since obviously that would be the right geek answer :D
18:07:48 <AnMaster> sadly I don't have a copy of K&R
18:08:17 <ihope> K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it?
18:09:21 <Deewiant> meh, ran into a bug in DMD which pretty much halts my CCBI work until it's fixed
18:09:43 <ais523> and does it affect gdc?
18:09:50 <Deewiant> probably, since it's a frontend bug
18:09:55 <Deewiant> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339
18:11:16 <tusho> "K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it?"
18:11:24 <tusho> K&R is The C Programming Language
18:11:31 <tusho> written by dennis richie and kercan'tspellhisname
18:11:42 <tusho> came out before even the spec was finalized, iirc
18:16:10 <AnMaster> <ihope> K&R isn't some Lisp book, is it?
18:16:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I guess the -fstd=c89 is autoconf getting confused
18:17:12 <AnMaster> ais523, also clang almost works, and the bug that happens I think is in ccc itself
18:17:21 <AnMaster> it got problems passing the right order to llvm-ld
18:17:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wrapper for clang to accept GCC command line arguments
18:17:43 <AnMaster> and to handle standard POSIX ones
18:17:44 <ais523> oh, the old-style protos are just a couple I didn't catch, everything was like that originally but the ones which took no arguments looked correct enough that I didn't notice them, nor did the other person who ANSIfied the source before I got to it
18:17:51 <AnMaster> normal clang doesn't support -c
18:18:17 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc with the right -W flags catches it
18:19:08 <ais523> AnMaster: iffi.diff has a bit of a ring to it, anyway
18:19:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you need that static assert btw?
18:19:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I just like the way your filename sounds
18:19:59 <AnMaster> ais523, diffi sure I could see it
18:20:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339
18:20:26 <Deewiant> what I need is for it to work properly
18:20:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why do you need static asserts? sure they are nice for preventing bugs
18:20:46 <Deewiant> it's just there to make a simple testcase
18:21:04 <Deewiant> the basic problem is that mixin("FooMixin.x") can't be passed to a template as an alias parameter
18:21:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, go do some work on llvmdc or whatever the D compiler targeted at llvm is called
18:21:31 <AnMaster> does it use a custom frontend or DMD?
18:21:36 <Deewiant> they all use the same crap-ass frontend
18:21:55 <AnMaster> so write a new frontend targeted at LLVM
18:22:07 <Deewiant> only finished the lexer, then got bored
18:22:18 <Deewiant> then donated the code to dang just a few days ago
18:22:26 <Deewiant> which is essentially D clang, just like mine was
18:22:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that "was not the answer I had expected"
18:22:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what happened to dang?
18:23:07 <Deewiant> but DMD is the only one near production-quality
18:24:04 <Deewiant> currently it's mostly a documentation generator from what I understand
18:24:33 <Deewiant> the smartest thing for me to do would be to fix the DMD frontend
18:24:42 <Deewiant> but meh, it's C++, and not exactly obvious
18:24:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep, and then use gdb
18:25:01 <Deewiant> the DMC compiler backend was C++
18:25:25 <Deewiant> which annoyed me, which is why I started writing that frontend
18:25:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: using gdc doesn't matter here
18:26:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so well maybe time to updated the mycology results page with the current mycology (excluding myco edge since CCBI can't pass it)
18:26:22 <Deewiant> the other option would be to get dil to a usable state but that's too much work :-P
18:26:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, mycoedge doesn't exist yet :-P
18:26:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you think so I will have a new cfunge release out by tomorrow morning which support SOCK and SCKE
18:26:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, dil or dang you mean?
18:27:06 <Deewiant> dil, it's much more complete than dang
18:27:19 <Deewiant> of course I'd probably prefer working on dang
18:27:31 <Deewiant> but that would be another order of magnitude more work :-P
18:27:39 <Deewiant> and in any case, none of this is practical
18:28:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well anyway do you plan to update the mycology result page soon, considering rc/funge got better too?
18:28:23 <AnMaster> if yes cfunge with SOCK SCKE will be released this evening or before noon tomorrow
18:39:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 0.3.1 release in progress...
18:41:53 <Deewiant> first I'll update old results, so Language::Befunge followed by RC/Funge (and removing jvh and other versions, just the latest)
18:42:01 <Deewiant> so now I'm installing a new version of Perl :-P
18:44:11 <Deewiant> At present, Strawberry Perl must be installed in C:\strawberry
18:44:24 <Deewiant> I wonder how they managed to hardcode that
18:45:11 <ais523> Deewiant: what about non-Windows systems, does it still have to be installed in C:\strawberry
18:45:39 <Deewiant> but screw that, I refuse to install it in such a place
18:45:59 <ais523> Deewiant: you can hardlink directories on Windows, you could use that to install it...
18:46:28 <ais523> Windows' filesystem is weird
18:46:43 <ais523> on Linux you can hardlink files but not directories, Windows is the other way round...
18:46:47 <AnMaster> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=221310&package_id=267309&release_id=624578
18:47:10 <AnMaster> note, that probably doesn't work on windows, since I don't have cygwin available
18:47:16 <AnMaster> cygwin does not run under wine
18:47:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I have cygwin available although not here, do you want me to test it when I get home?
18:47:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can't do much if it doesn't compile under that, if it is something either part of C99 or POSIX.1-2001 that it can't handle
18:49:57 <ais523> I have to go now, forgot it was Saturday...
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18:51:18 <CO2Games> ihope: The curious incident of the dog in the night-time
18:51:33 <CO2Games> I'm able to relate to the main character in it, unlike other books.
19:20:30 * pikhq needs to read that book some time.
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19:30:36 <fizzie> Yes, and you can "mount --bind" directories around on Linux, across anything obviously.
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19:38:02 <optbot> M0ny: going to investigate
19:38:13 <M0ny> i love investigations
19:41:09 <Deewiant> the new k testing dropped Language::Befunge and pyfunge out earlier than before :-/
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20:05:55 <Deewiant> and oh snap, !Befunge loops infinitely on k at "2k ;;;5"
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20:18:15 <fizzie> What should that sort of thing do? Skip the first ;, then do the ;; normally and push a 5?
20:18:43 <Deewiant> ;;; is a no-op assuming no other semicolons on that line
20:19:01 <Deewiant> first ; goes to second, third to first, second to third, and then we're through
20:19:27 <fizzie> And k, will it pick the 5 as the instruction to execute?
20:20:27 <fizzie> I'm not really a Funge-98 person, so fungot doesn't use either 'k' or ';', I think. There's two 'j's, though.
20:20:28 <fungot> fizzie: when a schemer says " this"
20:20:42 <fungot> fizzie: depending on the viewer. some may like to think befunge, but still
20:22:19 <fizzie> And a single ], all other turns are plain old <>v^, even though I could've saved characters with []. And no w. It's very crappy code. :/
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20:37:07 <Deewiant> well, with a lot of hacking (removing the mmap check as well as a bunch of fingerprints) I managed to get cfunge to compile under cygwin
20:37:15 <Deewiant> Trying to write to it with o...
20:37:15 <Deewiant> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
20:41:40 <Deewiant> guess that testing cfunge is for tomorrow then
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21:02:18 <CO2Games> Ok I know what the problem in my interpreter is
21:03:24 <CO2Games> Although it's supposed to support most brainfuck
21:03:41 <CO2Games> The wrapping not so much because they are 16-bit cells not 8-bit
21:03:48 <oklopol> you added a few loop constructs?
21:04:14 <CO2Games> The [ and ] aren't working when nested
21:04:24 * oerjan wonders if this is another case of not skipping loops properly
21:04:27 <CO2Games> Actually they might be entirely broken
21:04:29 <oklopol> i can fix your code you wanna
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21:04:52 <CO2Games> The problem is it won't exit the loop once it is 0
21:05:00 <oklopol> if it's in python, otherwise i can't promise anything :P
21:05:32 <oerjan> CO2Games: does it avoid entering loops if they're 0 at the start?
21:05:32 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: you're a king, how hard can it be to get some cake?
21:05:53 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
21:07:00 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: i read that as "wants to eat"
21:07:37 <oerjan> kings always have to let them eat cake. and they may _still_ lose their head for it
21:07:55 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat, GreyKnight and KingOfKarlsruhe, we have a lot of majestetic names here
21:08:08 -!- oklopol has changed nick to OkloThePol.
21:08:45 <CO2Games> oerjan: Yeah it skips the loop
21:09:01 <oerjan> ok so it's not that common newbie mistake :)
21:09:05 <CO2Games> Well, [] does, but {} doesn't as intended
21:09:19 <OkloThePol> CO2Games: give us some code or start debugging, whining doesn't help :P
21:09:24 <CO2Games> [] is a while, and {} is a dowhile
21:09:44 <GreyKnight> OkloThePol: "oklob plants" are a dastardly and widely-feared monster from the game Crawl (see ##crawl)
21:09:56 <OkloThePol> KingOfKarlsruhe: hey! you can only have 2 grandmas, i just realized :--)
21:10:28 <oerjan> hm was it gilgamesh who had two mothers?
21:10:50 <ihope> No, that was Florence Ambrose.
21:10:56 <ihope> And maybe Gilgamesh, too.
21:10:58 <CO2Games> I've always wondered if eggs could fuse resulting in two or more fathers
21:11:31 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: you could put some code in a pastebin if you want help, then we could see the problem more easily
21:11:33 <ihope> I doubt it, given that horses and donkeys can't exactly mix, and they have almost the same number of chromosomes.
21:11:40 <oerjan> what? i don't remember florence having - oh, that. but only one was biological right?
21:11:42 <ihope> Or something like that, anyway.
21:11:53 <GreyKnight> (you are the guy that is doing YA bf-alike, right?)
21:12:28 <ihope> Why did EU have both a mother and a father, anyway? You don't need two people to make a clone.
21:12:59 <ihope> Wikipedia doesn't seem to be down here.
21:13:48 -!- OkloThePol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:13:52 -!- OkloThePol has joined.
21:14:58 <ihope> no.wikipedia.org works, ja.wikipedia.org works, fi.wikipedia.org works, zh.wikipedia.org works.
21:15:21 <GreyKnight> so only http://oerjan.wikipedia.org is the problem :-)
21:15:29 <ihope> Now I need to look at the Hungarian, German, Spanish, Klingon, Lojban, and French Wikipedias.
21:15:31 <CO2Games> moveleft and moveright move the pointer for the data tape
21:15:47 <CO2Games> I know for a fact that they work
21:16:05 <GreyKnight> ihope: wasn't the tlhingan Hol one discontinued?
21:16:08 <oerjan> i still cannot reach en.wikipedia
21:17:14 <CO2Games> +[>+[>-<+]<+] - Works but not on my interpreter
21:17:15 <GreyKnight> KingOfKarlsruhe: I can get at de-wp as well, there must be disruption on the path from you to them somewhere
21:19:06 <CO2Games> It seems to be looping back to the start of its loop regardless of the result.
21:19:14 <GreyKnight> Topic for #wikipedia is "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Status: Down in Europe | Maintain civility and respect at all times | No public logs allowed | No speaking bots allowed. | For an op, join #wikimedia-ops"
21:19:15 <CO2Games> but only the outside loop not the inside one
21:19:25 <GreyKnight> "Status: Down in Europe" being the important bit :-)
21:19:58 <optbot> CO2Games: I really need to learn LISP and Perl, and practice Scheme and C.
21:20:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think you broke EgoBot..
21:20:43 <GreyKnight> OkloThePol: yeah, I can from Ireland too. It is probably the mainland or else patchy
21:20:53 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: we could probably help more with pasted code and/or copious debugging output :-)
21:21:08 <GreyKnight> GreyKnight's First Rule of Debugging: When in doubt, print it out
21:21:10 <CO2Games> debugging output? There isn't an error
21:22:01 <OkloThePol> guys my code doesn't work can you help me
21:22:21 <oerjan> OkloThePol: there's a missing semicolon on line 43
21:22:27 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: I mean that, while the executable is running, it should append information to a file on what its current status is
21:22:49 <GreyKnight> that way you could trace through said output to see where it is deviating from expectations
21:23:11 <CO2Games> Oh so you want me to output each operation to a file and upload the file?
21:24:01 <CO2Games> Code symbol - Cell being pointed to before the operation - its value before the operation
21:24:17 <CO2Games> I already have it setup for stdout so I can get that out to a file instead
21:24:36 <fizzie> Wasn't oklopol a Python guy? Missing semicolon in Python code sounds fishy.
21:24:52 <GreyKnight> basically, write out everything you can think of, run a short test of what doesn't work, and then go through the output performing the code operations by hand to see which ones are wrong :-)
21:26:24 <ihope> Doesn't Python have traditional braces-and-semicolon type syntax?
21:27:21 <OkloThePol> SyntaxError: not a chance (<pyshell#2>, line 1)
21:28:09 <fizzie> Python is (in)famous for its indentation-sensitive syntax.
21:29:42 <GreyKnight> I was under the impression that it's not so much that the syntax is *sensitive* to indentation as that the indentation *is* the syntax :-)
21:30:12 <fizzie> Although you can use ;s to put multiple statements on a single line, so I guess there could be a missing ;.
21:30:44 <oerjan> fizzie: are you doubting my oracular powers?
21:30:53 <ihope> I like doubting people.
21:31:16 <oerjan> ihope: hey, you're back to your old self!
21:31:18 <ihope> I'm doubting... everyone except oerjan right now.
21:31:28 <ihope> Did I change temporarily?
21:31:32 <fizzie> Doubt, doubt, doubt the boat.
21:31:52 <GreyKnight> I doubt that ihope likes doubting people
21:32:06 <oerjan> ihope: you had that sorta weredog look
21:33:06 <ihope> So I didn't change from always doubting myself to thinking I'm always right, or vice versa.
21:33:21 <oerjan> you may have, i didn't notice
21:34:21 <oerjan> although i doubt that. and i'm always right.
21:38:19 <oerjan> what is your cell size?
21:39:13 <oerjan> how many bits on your system?
21:39:45 <CO2Games> Sorry I thought you meant ram heh
21:40:30 <CO2Games> +[>+[>-<+]<+] takes a fraction of a second on brainfucking machine
21:40:30 <oerjan> good grief someone is doing fireworks outside
21:41:25 <GreyKnight> CO2Games: put the first bunch of lines of the debug output on a pastebin and let's see if it's doing something wrong early on
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21:43:39 <oerjan> mind you that should take 2^32 steps of the inner loop, right?
21:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | just use ssh instead.
21:45:46 <oerjan> take the first 2^16 steps
21:45:58 <oerjan> until the inner cell should wrap around
21:46:17 <oerjan> that's the first place you'd expect something could be wrong
21:46:51 <GreyKnight> better idea might be to take the section around that, cutting off both before *and* after?
21:47:05 <oerjan> well that's what i meant.
21:47:27 <GreyKnight> oerjan: ok, ignore my misunderstanding then :-)
21:48:07 <oerjan> CO2Games: you want to see what happens around the point when cell 2 wraps around to 0 for the first time
21:49:13 <oerjan> i guess that should be about simultaneous
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21:50:34 <oerjan> CO2Games: should be around line 5*65536
21:53:28 <oerjan> i see, so it _does_ end the inner loop
21:54:23 <CO2Games> I'm thinking it has something to do with my usage of shorts instead of chars
21:54:35 <CO2Games> like the code needs to wrap to work or something
21:54:39 <oerjan> well sure that makes it much slower
21:54:53 <oerjan> but shorts should wrap just as well
21:55:02 <oerjan> and clearly they do in the inner loop
21:55:12 <GreyKnight> is your cell type typedef'd? If so you could temporarily change it to char and see what happens
21:55:53 <CO2Games> I haven't used the typedef keyword
21:56:25 <GreyKnight> that is, do you refer to your tape explicitly as "unsigned short tape[];" or use "typedef unsigned short cellvalue; cellvalue tape[];"
21:57:06 <oerjan> CO2Games: anyway you need to get beyond line 5*2^32 and a bit more for the big one
21:58:37 <CO2Games> jesus christ thats fucking huge
21:59:44 <CO2Games> 2006689 is as far as the log goes
22:01:37 <GreyKnight> I think charification might be the order of the day, to be honest :-)
22:01:45 <GreyKnight> and see if that shows it up any better
22:02:02 <GreyKnight> (with a typedef you could switch between them easily!)
22:02:41 <CO2Games> Well I can make it unsigned chars pretty easy so 1 sec
22:03:00 <oerjan> that should be fast enough
22:05:01 <CO2Games> ................................
22:05:49 <CO2Games> it works now that I changed them to unsigned chars
22:05:51 <oerjan> i guess 5*2^32 + 65536 steps is just a bit slow...
22:06:04 <oerjan> (that's my latest calculation)
22:06:40 <CO2Games> I used if's to check if I was at zero and it was like I was always not.
22:07:41 <CO2Games> So it was the goddamned shit...
22:09:13 * oerjan envisions some if (cell=0) ;D
22:12:38 <oerjan> (that was a joke. i hope.)
22:13:27 <oerjan> that _was_ the joke :D
22:13:28 <CO2Games> And I meant my if commands in drainfuck
22:14:22 <CO2Games> Prints a beep without altering the current cell's contents
22:15:19 <CO2Games> it has the effect of a [. but the ) doesn't do anything but sit there
22:16:05 <CO2Games> So now I have while, if, do-while
22:16:59 <CO2Games> Brainfuck did it in .02 seconds
22:17:09 <CO2Games> drainfuck is still working on it
22:17:23 <OkloThePol> many brainfuck interps parse [+] as (set cell to zero)
22:17:46 <CO2Games> Didn't know about the wrapping until after I made the 0 though
22:18:29 <GreyKnight> more wrapping-dependent code? I wonder how BF ever managed to get so vilely popular with all this carryon.
22:19:02 <CO2Games> Mine doesn't directly parse [+] or [-], it just goes [ then + then ] then + then ] etc.
22:19:28 <CO2Games> Still gotta add X and L for my parser
22:19:41 <OkloThePol> does yours optimize [+] into a single action setting the current cell to 0?
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22:19:49 <CO2Games> But I have the 0 command for that
22:20:00 <CO2Games> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Drainfuck#Examples
22:20:05 <CO2Games> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Drainfuck
22:20:44 <CO2Games> My parser sees [+] as three commands, not one
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22:23:32 <OkloThePol> hmm, muriel + brainfuck, all loops balanced, ^ runs tape as a bf program with a new empty tape
22:24:02 <OkloThePol> also i guess you could have 1 mean +, 2 mean - etc, so it's easier to create the code
22:24:42 <CO2Games> I use ^ to store the current cell's data into the cache
22:25:27 <OkloThePol> cache is like a one-byte buffer for temporary storing?
22:25:54 <CO2Games> And it isn't affected by swapping tapes
22:26:15 <CO2Games> I just copied a byte to the other tape
22:26:51 <CO2Games> Each tape has an independant reel, so if you start the program and >X you are still at 0
22:27:28 <CO2Games> I intend to add a function to swap the data tape out
22:28:21 <CO2Games> The loop I fed my program finished
22:28:51 <OkloThePol> for some reason "reel" immediately gave it away for me that you were native
22:29:13 <CO2Games> I have a 5.25" working floppy drive in my dos 6.22 computer
22:29:50 <CO2Games> If I could I would also have an 8" drive
22:30:12 <CO2Games> I had to get my 5.25" off ebay
22:31:08 <CO2Games> Now Playing: Mutato Muzika - N. Cortex
22:32:10 <CO2Games> I love the crash bandicoot 2 background music
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22:54:01 <CO2Games> Alright I've got a working drainfuck-specific program now
22:54:08 <CO2Games> drainfuck::{++++++++++>,----------}@>[.>]E
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23:36:01 <GreyKnight> finally, I was half-tempted to /nick GreyTheKnight for a while there
23:36:55 <GreyKnight> Unlambda is neat, maybe I should roll together a program to interpret or compile it
23:40:06 <tusho> compiling unlambda is quite difficult
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00:51:49 <CO2Games> Anyone want to try out my drainfuck parser?
00:54:18 <CO2Games> If my langauge has all of the brainfuck commands working the same way, is my language turing-complete as well?
00:57:01 <CO2Games> Hey I thought brainfuck was intended to have the smallest compiler ever.
00:59:54 <GreyKnight> I'm afraid I try to stay away from bf-alikes, so would be hard pressed to see any problems with it, but hopefully someone else will give you a hand
01:02:02 <CO2Games> Why is my interpreter smaller than their compilers?
01:02:35 <GreyKnight> well, compilation and interpretation are different beasts for a start, perhaps that has an effect.
01:02:54 <OkloThePol> i think the brainfuck compiler was 200b
01:03:34 <CO2Games> Sorry I was thinking kilobytes ahah
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04:32:15 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/prettyboy.jpg
04:34:38 <GregorR> Note to self: Read commentary BEFORE clicking random links.
06:18:54 <RodgerTheGreat> hey guys- want to try out a new stack-based language I've cooked up?
06:19:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the interpreter is still a little brittle, but it can deal with most syntax errors somewhat gracefully
06:20:24 <RodgerTheGreat> running either of the frontends I provide from the console will provide you with more helpful debugging information in the case of an error than just running the applet in a browser.
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07:50:05 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I'll check it out in the morning.
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08:12:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:18:21 <oklofok> i'll check it out in the now.
08:20:18 <oerjan> these days, efficiency requires you to check it out in the past
08:20:39 <oerjan> always keep a time machine handy
08:20:47 <oklofok> well, in the past, i was checking out your mum.
08:24:08 -!- tusho has joined.
08:24:41 -!- kar8nga has joined.
08:25:14 <oerjan> surprisingly, some people are awake
08:26:45 <oklofok> i was woken up by a friends asking me to go to some whacky martial arts thing
08:28:40 <tusho> oerjan: yea, but i doubt there's anyone british in here
08:31:19 * oerjan watches tusho doubt himself
08:31:38 <tusho> i'm too tired to doubt. :3
08:31:53 <tusho> if anyone is 1. awake 2. on IRC 3. british say "aaaaaaaaaafjkahsiuebfbuaishdiuqh312h3893y*&*&£Y"
08:32:19 <oerjan> i really thought you were british
08:34:13 <tusho> oerjan: that was a command to others
08:35:08 <oerjan> but still, you seem not to include yourself in "anyone"
08:35:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:35:18 -!- puzzlet has joined.
08:35:43 <oerjan> conclusion: tusho is a british robot
08:43:36 <tusho> oerjan: i am fuzzy
08:44:15 <oerjan> eww, that fuzz is mold!
08:44:17 * tusho 's fuzzy state continues unchanged
08:46:49 <oerjan> me too. must be a sign of genius.
08:47:57 * oerjan investigates the fuzz more carefully with a microscope
08:48:11 <oerjan> hey, there are little people in there! and skyscrapers!
08:50:51 <oklofok> as a plus side to my slow reading, i do usually remember every little detail about the book
08:51:10 <oklofok> except for names and years of course, for some reason i cannot remember those
08:51:24 <oklofok> easier for me to convert the name to meaningless numbers, then remember them
08:51:35 <oklofok> or, well, think of the word as a random string
08:51:39 <oerjan> that doesn't explain the years
08:51:43 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
08:52:07 <oklopol> basically, at some point in my life i've decided names and times are not important
08:52:22 <oklopol> and now i just cannot remember them.
08:53:20 -!- OkloThePol has joined.
08:53:21 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:53:52 <OkloThePol> i can't remember any one of my friends' birthday, even though i've put quite a lot of effort into remembering them; i do remember about 20 long passwords though, even the passwords of a few of my friends, i remember all phone numbers, and much more useless trivia though
08:54:25 <OkloThePol> i do remember the names of my friends though, that's not as bad :)
08:55:07 -!- OkloThePol has changed nick to oklopol.
08:55:34 <oklopol> fucking mirc remembers my jokes and keeps repeating them
08:56:37 <tusho> i read really fast.
08:56:59 <tusho> i don't really remember many details post-book but I could give you a summary. it's a pleasure for while I read it, at least
08:57:19 <tusho> I also don't type anywhere near the speed at which I can for some reason.
08:57:25 <oerjan> must be a sign of .. erm
08:59:02 <oklopol> i don't read books where it's useful to give summaries
08:59:12 <oklopol> i guess that's one reason why i read slow, i don't read fiction
09:03:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> well, with a lot of hacking (removing the mmap check as well as a bunch of fingerprints) I managed to get cfunge to compile under cygwin
09:03:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Trying to write to it with o...
09:03:01 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
09:03:02 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> guess that testing cfunge is for tomorrow then
09:03:39 <AnMaster> it works perfectly under Linux, FreeBSD and Mac OS X
09:06:42 <AnMaster> and well those changes you made, they could have caused the issue, potentially
09:09:23 <AnMaster> gdb --args path/to/cfunge path/to/mycology.b98
09:09:40 <AnMaster> type "r" (without quotes) to run the program
09:09:50 <AnMaster> wait till it crashes and you get a gdb prompt
09:10:20 <AnMaster> you mean lot of question marks?
09:10:25 <AnMaster> did you build with debug info?
09:10:40 <Deewiant> I just did "cmake . -G 'Unix Makefiles'"
09:12:18 <Deewiant> the other question I had was how to remove fingerprints from the build
09:12:19 <tusho> Deewiant: i wanna contribute a ccbi patch, are there any neat fingerprints i could implement for ccbi2?
09:12:41 <Deewiant> I went hacking in the CMake-generated makefiles to do it
09:12:51 <Deewiant> but surely there's an easy way
09:13:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, remove the directory and rerun tools/gen_fprint_list.sh
09:13:21 <Deewiant> tusho: I don't know about "neat", but sure, there's a bunch of stuff of RC/Funge's that I haven't done
09:13:38 <tusho> Deewiant: yay. any up-to-date ccbi2 source tarballs?
09:13:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, src/fingerprints/FILE or whatever
09:13:52 <AnMaster> and the file src/fingerprints/FILE.spec
09:14:04 <Deewiant> tusho: would be kinda pointless as the fingerprint stuff isn't done in ccbi2 (currently blocked on a compiler bug indefinitely)
09:14:13 <tusho> Deewiant: ouch. what's the bug?
09:14:15 <tusho> any hacky workarounds?
09:14:25 <Deewiant> I already have dozens of bug workarounds in my code
09:14:29 <Deewiant> couldn't think of one for this
09:14:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I didn't have any need to disable some in an easy way. sorry
09:14:35 <tusho> Deewiant: what's the bug?
09:14:48 <Deewiant> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339
09:15:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway got any useful stack trace now?
09:15:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I am removing fingerprints so that I can get this to build
09:16:01 <tusho> Deewiant: couldn't you like, restructure how your stuff works and sacrifice neatness for workingness
09:16:09 <tusho> mixin magic is nice, but when it doesn't work...
09:16:14 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean make it work like ccbi 1?
09:16:30 <tusho> Deewiant: write it in something else. =P
09:17:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but I don't have too high hopes for this since I know cygwin's gdb can be whacky, and you said you edited funge-space.c to remove mmap... well that is where the actually file writing happens too, though that bit doesn't use mmap()
09:20:07 <Deewiant> http://rafb.net/p/fzo95417.html
09:20:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, cygwin's gdb is whacky, not much I can do except note that using locally changed source is unsupported :/
09:21:03 <tusho> you cannot get paid phone support
09:21:11 <tusho> or use any of the Unofficial cfunge Community Support Channels
09:21:23 <tusho> for assistance with The Product.
09:21:28 <tusho> (As specified by the EULA.)
09:21:31 <AnMaster> tusho, very funny, but point is I need a good backtrace to be able to debug it
09:21:51 <tusho> AnMaster: so you need a backtrace to do it but you won't do it anyway as it was locally changed?
09:21:58 <AnMaster> tusho, the backtrace is broken
09:22:01 <tusho> "give me a backtrace then proceed to watch me do nothing with it!"
09:22:10 <AnMaster> and I would help if there was a good backtrace
09:22:15 <AnMaster> even if it was locally changed
09:22:18 <tusho> ...contradicting what you just said
09:22:50 <AnMaster> but, now that it is locally changed and there is no good backtrace... well hard to debug, hard to reproduce
09:23:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you got a diff of your local changes I could take a look at them
09:24:29 <AnMaster> if I could reproduce a bug with that here maybe I could help you make it work
09:24:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just defining M_PI somewhere where it wasn't, removing the check for _POSIX_mmap_works or whatever, and removing 3DSP,FIXP,PERL,REXP,TERM
09:25:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you use mmap() still? just removing the sanity check for it?
09:25:27 <Deewiant> not like I'm going to rewrite your file loading code to get it to work :-P
09:25:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then I'm totally lost. If you had removed mmap() and replaced it with something else then I could see that something could have caused it... but... now, huh?
09:26:12 <AnMaster> as for where was M_PI not defined?
09:26:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, think that is due to windows in fact
09:26:47 <AnMaster> anyway will take a look at that
09:28:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but the bug you describe doesn't happen on any OS I have access to, so I'm sad to say that I'm unable to reproduce it :/
09:28:33 <AnMaster> hard to see what I could do :/
09:29:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could run with -S to drop =, o and i
09:29:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for PERL, why wouldn't it work under cygwin?
09:30:38 <tusho> AnMaster: Is this where I get revenge for you whining about my blog design?
09:30:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: link error to __Exit
09:30:43 <tusho> AnMaster: Portability!!!!!!
09:30:51 <tusho> POOOOOOOOORTABILITY
09:31:06 <tusho> oh wait, you're portable to anything that supports C99 and POSIX right?
09:31:18 <tusho> my design is portable to anything that supports CSS2 and some elements of CSS3.
09:31:25 <tusho> it works without the CSS3 stuff too.
09:31:32 <AnMaster> if you say that in the README :P
09:31:45 <AnMaster> I make sure to not use GCC or glibc extensions
09:31:46 <tusho> AnMaster: but 100% standards compliance is universal!
09:31:53 <tusho> is it not?! you are shattering my world here
09:32:05 <AnMaster> tusho, no it isn't, I never claimed to work on Mac OS 7
09:32:24 <tusho> Deewiant: does ccbi run on macos7
09:32:34 <Deewiant> tusho: haven't seen anyone try
09:32:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does cygwin have _exit() then?
09:33:09 <tusho> Deewiant: what, but everyone who asks about something is an expert on it.[1][2]
09:33:12 <AnMaster> _exit, _Exit - terminate the calling process
09:33:15 <AnMaster> SVr4, POSIX.1-2001, 4.3BSD. The function _Exit() was introduced by C99.
09:33:15 <tusho> okay, I'll stop irritating AnMaster now
09:33:37 <tusho> AnMaster: but you just said that standards-compliance wasn't universal...
09:33:39 <AnMaster> so replacing it with _exit() could work
09:33:48 <tusho> so why are you citing one
09:33:50 <AnMaster> tusho, that is sadly the truth
09:33:57 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm saying that you could use either
09:34:11 <AnMaster> if you want it to work under cygwin
09:34:53 <tusho> okay well i said that before you said that.
09:34:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, o uses normal file streams so I'm not sure what is the cause of stuff going wrong there. I'm unable to reproduce that type of error
09:35:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cygwin use / not \ right?
09:35:59 <Deewiant> tusho: if you really want to implement stuff for ccbi you can do it against the current version and I can update it myself for version 2 later
09:36:09 <tusho> Deewiant: alright. any juicy fingerprints?
09:36:12 <Deewiant> and Windows NT supports / as well anyway
09:36:23 <tusho> i don't know a good list of them, so
09:36:28 <tusho> and i think rcfunge98.com is down
09:36:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, I got no idea what could be wrong, if I had a bugzilla I would probably close with "WORKSFORME" or "NEEDMOREINFO" at this point :(
09:37:36 <Deewiant> tusho: EXEC, FING, LONG, MACR, SETS, STCK, TRGR, from a quick look
09:37:45 <tusho> EXEC sounds sexalicious.
09:37:56 <AnMaster> tusho, EXEC is just "variations of k in C maj"
09:38:11 <tusho> ah. not very interesting from the looks either
09:38:14 <Deewiant> tusho: you want to clone a mercurial branch to play with?
09:38:22 <tusho> Deewiant: oh, sure
09:38:30 <tusho> i was just going to sync the tarball manually with git but that sounds better :^)
09:38:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you manage to get an usable backtrace, or even better a nice patch, then I shall handle fix it as fast as I can (probably the weekend after)
09:38:58 <Deewiant> tusho: hg clone http://tar.us.to:8000/ should work
09:38:58 <AnMaster> until then: NEEDMOREINFO and WORKSFORME
09:39:07 <tusho> AnMaster: it works for you on cygwin?
09:39:11 <tusho> the problem is "doesn't work on cygwin"
09:39:15 <tusho> WORKSFORME is inappropriate.
09:39:21 <tusho> because you haven't even tested
09:39:33 <AnMaster> tusho, right, NEEDMOREINFO LACKNEEDEDRESOURCESTOTESTONCYGWIN
09:39:37 <Deewiant> I agree, more like NEEDMOREINFO or WONTFIX
09:39:49 <tusho> AnMaster: couldn't you, ahh, just run qemu..
09:39:59 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't have any windows cd or license
09:40:04 <tusho> AnMaster: pirate it.
09:40:35 <AnMaster> I don't break the law like that
09:40:36 <tusho> AnMaster: is windows worth the money it costs.
09:40:43 <AnMaster> tusho, no, but I don't break the law
09:40:47 <tusho> Deewiant: operation timed out
09:41:02 <tusho> AnMaster: ok, i'll call you back post-copyright-reform. :D
09:41:28 <tusho> Deewiant: any other location for the repo?
09:41:44 <Deewiant> tusho: I can give you the IP address instead or you can wait while I update the DNS record :-)
09:41:58 <tusho> Deewiant: that sounds nice
09:42:37 <tusho> oh, STCK looks incredibly trivial
09:42:44 <AnMaster> not that I can build it due to gdc and tango mess
09:43:08 <tusho> Deewiant: can i install rebuild with dsss?
09:43:10 <Deewiant> just get DMD, what's so wrong with that :-P
09:43:16 <Deewiant> tusho: rebuild is part of dsss
09:43:22 <Deewiant> if you have dsss, you have rebuild
09:43:23 <tusho> i don't have dsss, it seems
09:43:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway as it stands now: cygwin is unsupported and NEEDMOREINFO | CANTFIXCURRENTLY
09:44:01 <tusho> # dsss-0.75-gdc-mac-10.4.dmg <-- oh yeah baby
09:44:03 <tusho> i hated compiling dsss
09:44:18 <AnMaster> so cygwin issues is not valid for mycology results page
09:44:25 <tusho> http://dsss.codu.org/ wow, gregorr uses the cherokee http server
09:44:25 <AnMaster> since I don't currently support cygwin
09:44:32 <tusho> that's...even more obscure than nginx and lighttpd.
09:45:07 <AnMaster> tusho, agreed, I used both lighttpd and thttpd (and apache of course)
09:45:29 <tusho> cherokee looks like a neat project but meh
09:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | OK.
09:45:39 <tusho> it seems neat but ... no reason to switch atm i think
09:45:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the problem is cf_putc_unlocked
09:46:02 <tusho> rutian uses apache 'cause it's easy to spread out domains in different directories (the way we do it is: domain X administered by user Y goes in ~Y/www/X)
09:46:08 <tusho> and it has Passangers and nifty stuff
09:46:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, interesting. I do call the needed locking and unlocking functions before and after
09:46:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you should probably report this bug to the cygwin project I suspect
09:46:53 <tusho> rutian is a pretty nifty little machine.
09:46:54 <AnMaster> for now if you give me some thing to ifdef on I can work around it for cygwin
09:46:56 <tusho> nicely organized and such
09:47:33 <tusho> % rebuild -rfccbi.rf
09:47:33 <tusho> ccbi.d(13): module Exception cannot read file 'tango/core/Exception.d'
09:47:39 <tusho> what's the dsss command to tangoify again
09:47:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, #ifdef what? to detect cygwin?
09:47:57 <tusho> Deewiant: To make things easiest, get Rebuild and run rebuild -rfccbi.rf, passing any other options you wish (e.g. for optimization, -O -inline -release). If not, you’ll need to manually pass each source file to the compiler.
09:48:26 <tusho> but there's a dsss command to download&install tango
09:48:38 <AnMaster> # define cf_putc_unlocked(x, y) putc_unlocked((x), (y))
09:48:41 <AnMaster> # define cf_putc_unlocked(x, y) putc((x), (y))
09:48:53 <AnMaster> depending on if the system claims to support unlocked IO
09:49:13 <AnMaster> so does normal putc, not fputc work?
09:49:15 <tusho> Deewiant: are those gdc problems still relevant
09:49:22 <AnMaster> fputc() writes the character c, cast to an unsigned char, to stream.
09:49:23 <AnMaster> putc() is equivalent to fputc() except that it may be implemented as a macro which evaluates stream more than once.
09:49:26 <Deewiant> GDC hasn't been updated in ages
09:49:27 <tusho> Deewiant: i can't use dmd on os x :\
09:49:46 <Deewiant> tusho: well, like said, it's fine as long as you don't use 'o' :-P
09:49:49 <tusho> lib/common/tango/core/Exception.d:71: internal compiler error: Abort trap
09:49:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, give me something to #ifdef on and I shall special case cygwin
09:49:54 <tusho> /opt/local/var/db/dports/build/_opt_local_var_db_dports_sources_rsync.rsync.darwinports.org_dpupdate_dports_lang_gdc/work/gcc-4.1.2/gcc/d/dmd/toobj.c:417: failed assertion `classinfo->structsize == CLASSINFO_SIZE'
09:49:54 <tusho> lib/common/tango/core/Exception.d:71: internal compiler error: Abort trap
09:49:56 <tusho> the fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
09:50:12 <tusho> gdc (GCC) 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.23, using dmd 1.007))
09:50:12 <tusho> Copyright (C) 2006 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
09:50:13 <Deewiant> tusho: do you have the latest SVN?
09:50:17 <tusho> I AM EVER SO SLIGHTLY OUT OF DATE
09:50:36 <AnMaster> tusho, surely that is bad, you must of course use the last! ;P
09:50:46 <AnMaster> tusho, use cvs head of your glibc!
09:51:01 <tusho> AnMaster: django is worse
09:51:12 <tusho> they released 1.0 recently
09:51:18 <tusho> but before that they were on 0.96
09:51:24 <tusho> and the trunk was like 3 major releases ahead
09:51:29 <tusho> production enterprise websites used the trunk
09:51:31 <AnMaster> tusho, yes most projects tend to get a bit more stable by 1.0
09:51:38 <tusho> and the actual experimental development was on other branches scattered about
09:51:59 <tusho> Deewiant: will i have to reinstall dsss for the new gdc
09:52:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can't reproduce it trivially
09:52:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm... well give me an #ifdef for cygwin then, and I shall use normal putc for it
09:52:32 <tusho> i hope gdc compiles easy...
09:52:33 <AnMaster> unless it needs fputc not putc?
09:52:53 <tusho> http://sourceforge.net/projects/gdcmac
09:53:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, other places in the code also use these functions so... well I need *something to use in #ifdef to detect cygwin*
09:54:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, want the GCC command to list predefined #defines?
09:54:22 <AnMaster> echo | gcc -std=c99 -E -x c -dM - -o -
09:54:38 <AnMaster> see if there is anything about cygwin there
09:54:51 <tusho> osmething like that
09:56:01 <AnMaster> #if !defined(__CYGWIN__) && defined(_POSIX_THREAD_SAFE_FUNCTIONS) && (_POSIX_THREAD_SAFE_FUNCTIONS > 0)
09:56:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, easier, echo | cpp -dM
09:56:12 <AnMaster> that is, add "!defined(__CYGWIN__) &&"
09:56:15 <tusho> Deewiant: what the fuck i have to switch gcc for gdc?
09:56:40 <tusho> Deewiant: i hate how gcc language stuff requires compiling another gcc
09:56:44 <tusho> instead of plugging it into your existing one
09:57:02 <tusho> is there a dmd for os x yet...
09:57:18 <tusho> this was easy the last time i did it
09:57:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, I get many warnings building cfunge
09:58:11 <Deewiant> and "warning: #warning is a GCC extension"
09:58:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm, I do include all headers I think
09:58:33 <tusho> warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: warning: stack overflow
09:58:34 <Deewiant> and nested extern declarations
09:59:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because I suspect many of those are in system headers, since cfunge turns on lots of warnings, that could lead to warnings about stuff in system headers
09:59:40 <AnMaster> I certainly don't get those warnings here you see
09:59:56 <AnMaster> I get *two* warnings, both in genx that tusho recommended
09:59:58 <Deewiant> baah, the paste broke, http://rafb.net/p/RMegHR33.html
10:00:17 <tusho> AnMaster: oooh so sorrrryyy!
10:00:38 <Deewiant> and expected that it wouldn't break copying from it
10:00:57 <Deewiant> I'll just redirect make to a file
10:01:01 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c: In function `GenerateCircle':
10:01:01 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c:475: warning: nested extern declaration of `snprintf'
10:01:01 <AnMaster> <internal>:0: warning: redundant redeclaration of 'snprintf'
10:01:13 <AnMaster> I do include the right header before
10:01:28 <AnMaster> so how could it be nested extern decl
10:01:51 <AnMaster> and if it was, it couldn't be redundant redeclaration
10:02:14 <AnMaster> those two warnings are mutually exclusive
10:02:27 <AnMaster> at least if you trust what the gcc man page says about them
10:02:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, somehow I suspect cygwin is doing something strange that breaks when you turn on lots of warning flags in GCC
10:03:23 <Deewiant> more legible: http://rafb.net/p/RPxTt679.html
10:03:53 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/lib/genx/genx.c: In function `storePrefix':
10:03:53 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/lib/genx/genx.c:345: warning: implicit declaration of function `snprintf'
10:03:53 <AnMaster> D:/Progging/funge/others/cfunge-0.3.1/lib/genx/genx.c:345: warning: nested extern declaration of `snprintf'
10:03:53 <AnMaster> <internal>:0: warning: redundant redeclaration of 'snprintf'
10:04:02 <Deewiant> I don't know, I'm just reporting
10:04:02 <AnMaster> doesn't that seem rather strange to you?
10:04:10 <AnMaster> just lets see if you agree with me
10:04:10 <Deewiant> I don't know what "nested extern" means
10:04:35 <Deewiant> yeah, so snprintf is probably a macro
10:05:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would also happen if you haven't included the right header. *but* I do include the right header. and it can't also be "redundant redeclaration" then
10:05:21 <AnMaster> some of those warnings are mutually exclusive
10:05:56 <AnMaster> snprintf needs #include <stdio.h>
10:06:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: some SOCK/SCKE fails in mycology
10:06:04 <tusho> i talk in a row a lot
10:06:08 <tusho> i wonder if it annoys anyone
10:06:13 <tusho> does it annoy any of you?
10:06:19 <tusho> i've gone 10-15 interrupted i think
10:06:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with what does it fail on cygwin?
10:06:24 <Deewiant> BAD: couldn't close original socket with K
10:06:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? that's odd... let me see
10:07:04 <AnMaster> if (shutdown(sockets[s]->fd, SHUT_RDWR) == -1) {
10:07:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what Mycology version do you have?
10:07:09 <AnMaster> if (close(sockets[s]->fd) == -1) {
10:07:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the one after you fixed the lock up in rc/funge and cfunge
10:08:03 <Deewiant> just the latest date in readme.txt
10:08:25 <AnMaster> 2008-08-30 - Fixed the case where SCKE is included in SOCK.
10:09:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c, try adding something perror("K failed:" in FingerSOCKkill() after line 252
10:10:12 <AnMaster> would say what went wrong at least with K
10:10:51 <AnMaster> oh and you have to add an include for stdio.h too to that file Deewiant
10:11:09 <Deewiant> K failed:: Transport endpoint is not connected
10:12:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, that's strange... you see there is both a shutdown() and a close() call above
10:12:16 <Deewiant> B failed:: Address already in use
10:12:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try adding some code to print to see which of those that fails
10:12:26 <Deewiant> that makes sense, because the K failed
10:13:08 <AnMaster> possibly something doesn't like shutdown on a socket that didn't connect
10:13:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try to make it keep going to close after shutdown instead
10:13:52 <AnMaster> so just remove the if bit over shutdown
10:13:59 <AnMaster> and ignore the return value of shutdown()
10:14:00 <Deewiant> works fine if I comment out the goto error after shutdown
10:14:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: like the man page says
10:14:32 <Deewiant> The specified socket is not connected.
10:14:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right, *fixes that*, seems like linux, *bsd and OS X accepts shutdown on a non-connected socket though
10:14:51 <Deewiant> so it looks like cygwin is more POSIX-compliant here ;-)
10:15:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and yes I fixed it locally, will commit soon
10:15:28 <AnMaster> if it is possible to track down a bug I'm fine with doing so
10:15:33 <tusho> AnMaster: note the ":D"
10:15:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: append a "&& errno != ENOTCONN" or what?
10:16:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm looking at man page atm
10:16:34 <AnMaster> just calling close anyway probably
10:17:09 <AnMaster> EBADF, ENOTCONN and ENOTSOCK will not cause any kind of horrible failure as far as I can see
10:18:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right. and what about the compile failure in 3DSP? Any idea of cause?
10:18:55 <Deewiant> I think it was *l functions being used
10:19:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah it doesn't implement those?
10:19:29 <Deewiant> evidently not if they don't link
10:19:50 <AnMaster> well, they are part of C99. But since older FreeBSD also miss them I was planning to add some sort of detection and fallback to non-l versions
10:19:57 <AnMaster> so that will be in next version too
10:21:49 <tusho> "We are happy to announce that W3C has integrated a version of HTML 5 conformance checker into a beta instance of the W3C Markup validator. That will help us to detect bugs, improve the user interface, and benefit from the large W3C communities"
10:23:17 <tusho> http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Feso-std.org%2F&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0
10:23:29 <tusho> no ugly button yet, though :P
10:24:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, those fixes are in, the l vs. non-l math ones will probably be done later today
10:24:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway now you can put that on the mycology results page :)
10:25:02 <tusho> today I think I will finally buy tusho.net
10:25:11 <tusho> and go "woop woop" again
10:25:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, these were in r406. btw
10:25:58 <AnMaster> revision-id: anmaster@envbot.org-20080907092316-eczkdchbs861mm1s
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10:26:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: nah, I need to run it in an environment where everything works
10:27:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, some of those you may never be able to get working under cygwin
10:27:16 <AnMaster> at least some of the fingerprints
10:27:23 <Deewiant> exactly, so I need to run it on a linux machine
10:27:31 <Deewiant> just like RC/Funge, so that I can get TURT results
10:27:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what ones was it you had disabled on cygwin now again?
10:28:16 <Deewiant> can't remember, see the scrollback
10:28:45 <AnMaster> 3DSP,FIXP,PERL,REXP,TERM right
10:29:17 <AnMaster> 3DSP, FIXP, well those use sinl and such. PERL was _Exit. REXP and TERM.... not sure what could go wrong on cygwin in those
10:31:12 <AnMaster> actually, 3DSP does not use sinl?
10:32:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm at loss what was the issue in 3DSP
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10:33:10 <tusho> ok wtf happened to http://eso-std.org/ :|
10:33:32 <AnMaster> Parse error: syntax error, unexpected T_STRING, expecting ';' in /home/tusho/www/eso-std.org/user/themes/tusho-blogs/header.php on line 1
10:33:45 <tusho> thank you AnMaster, I kind of knew that.
10:33:56 * AnMaster is now known as CaptainObvious
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10:34:33 <AnMaster> tusho, possibly: echo $a "foo" could cause it, that is a missing . between variable and string
10:34:49 <tusho> nope, no concatenation going on here
10:34:51 <tusho> it's just a template file
10:34:57 <tusho> so just simple function calls and loops etc
10:35:09 <tusho> here, I can even paste the whole thing
10:35:31 <tusho> (the reason it is 1 line is because I automatically compact it before uploading, probably a placebo but it feels more compact... might stop doing that :P)
10:35:33 <tusho> <?php if (!defined('HABARI_PATH' )) { die;} ?><!DOCTYPE html><html lang="en"><head><title><?php if ($request->display_entry && isset($post)) { echo $post->title;} else { Options::out('title');} ?></title><link rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml" title="Feed" href="<?php $theme->feed_alternate();?>"><link rel="stylesheet" media="screen" href="<?php Site::out_url('theme');?>/style.css"></head><body><div id="header"><h1><a href="<?php Site::out_url('haba
10:35:39 <tusho> did that get through
10:35:41 <tusho> if not, where was it cut off
10:36:01 <tusho> AnMaster: did it get cut off
10:36:11 <tusho> bari') ?>"><?php Options::out('title') ?></a></h1><nav><ul><?php for ($page in $pages) { ?><li><a href="<?php echo $page->permalink ?>"><?php echo $page->title_out ?></a></li><?php } ?></ul></nav></div><section id="content">
10:36:14 <AnMaster> inserting newlines would help locate the error
10:36:21 <tusho> yes, yes it would :p
10:36:21 <AnMaster> </ul></nav></div><section id="content">
10:36:28 <tusho> that's the full thing then
10:36:35 <tusho> I have a non-compacted version here
10:36:39 <tusho> and no obvious causes for the error
10:36:44 <AnMaster> anyway, try the non-compacted one on server
10:36:54 <tusho> yea probably a good idea
10:36:59 <oklopol> site::out_url() doesn't have a ";", does the next statement just concatenate after it with multiple <?php>'s?
10:37:41 <oklopol> right of course not that would make no sense
10:37:53 <tusho> <?php for ($page in $pages) { ?>
10:37:59 <AnMaster> tusho, lets see, assuming \n newlines, you save 1 byte / line per file by removing newlines?
10:38:00 <tusho> should be foreach ($pages as $page)
10:38:10 <tusho> AnMaster: well, no, much more
10:38:14 <tusho> since, newlines in loops duplicate
10:38:19 <tusho> and also it strips out general whitespace to
10:38:27 <tusho> before the stuff was like 3 pages of lines not longer than 30 chars
10:38:34 <tusho> now it's 3 lines of ... well, a lot, but quite a bit less than before
10:38:54 <tusho> i'm gzipping the output on there too, it's still not as fast as some sites but it's very zippy compared to most
10:39:11 <tusho> and it's just a 25 line shell script to compress&upload
10:39:18 <AnMaster> tusho, for 1100 baud modems? ;)
10:39:28 <AnMaster> I suspect that it really doesn't matter
10:39:34 <tusho> $pages isn't predefined...odd
10:39:53 <tusho> AnMaster: actually i tested it when i made that script and it was a little faster
10:39:54 <AnMaster> tusho, so if you ever claim that I am, you are just a hypocrite :P
10:39:58 <tusho> you should have seen the whitespace it generated without it
10:40:01 <tusho> i mean, literally, tons
10:40:07 <tusho> newlines and like 5 spaces in a row all over the place
10:40:14 <tusho> it's not over-optimizing, it's making the output sane ;)
10:40:21 <tusho> AnMaster: yes. i reloaded a page and reloaded after compression.
10:40:39 <tusho> AnMaster: human perception.
10:40:48 <tusho> it's 24 lines of shell script i don't really care if it's placebo
10:41:21 <tusho> it's just some trivial sed incantations that 1. makes the output of the templates look nicer (that whitespace abuse is really ugly) 2. save me a miniscule amount of bandwidth & make the site a miniscule amount faster & save a miniscule amount of disc
10:41:30 <tusho> sounds like a good deal to me
10:42:28 <AnMaster> tusho, and make finding cause of error a lot harder
10:42:38 <AnMaster> "Notice: Undefined variable: pages in user/themes/tusho-blogs/header.php line 1" yes
10:42:45 <tusho> uh, that one was easy
10:42:52 <tusho> i thought $pages was predefined for themes
10:43:00 <tusho> AnMaster: i just have to comment out the compression
10:43:14 <tusho> besides, the php calls are trivial that the only time i get it wrong are when i do things like that for thing
10:43:22 <tusho> because php's syntax is stupid and my brain wants it to not be :D
10:43:27 <tusho> AnMaster: i meant for debugging
10:43:36 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you think about the source of http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/
10:43:44 <tusho> AnMaster: it's xhtml 1.1
10:44:08 <AnMaster> tusho, do you think it is generated or hand written?
10:44:18 <tusho> AnMaster: knowing you hand written
10:44:31 <AnMaster> tusho, well hand written since it is a rather simple page
10:45:01 <tusho> AnMaster: it makes reading&editing the source more obscure and is unneeded when you coudl just use "
10:45:13 <tusho> although " isn't a quotation mark.
10:45:19 <tusho> “ and ” are :P
10:45:40 <AnMaster> tusho, if I want good typography I would use LaTeX not html :P
10:46:18 <tusho> AnMaster: another comment on that page is that I'm not a fan of the background colour
10:46:32 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean off-white color?
10:46:38 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, it makes it harder to read the text for me
10:46:55 <AnMaster> tusho, well I need non-white since it is hard to read for some if it is white
10:47:01 <AnMaster> forgot the name of the condition
10:47:02 <tusho> AnMaster: why specify it at all
10:47:10 <tusho> those people will have it set in their preferences
10:47:24 <tusho> additionally your link colours are almost the browsers default, the only thing you really need is:
10:47:29 <tusho> <body style="font-family: sans-serif">
10:47:42 <tusho> you might want a <style> for the img { border:0}
10:47:51 <tusho> then I'd just have the sans-serif and the img border thing
10:47:56 <AnMaster> tusho, anwyay I shall think about colors
10:47:59 <tusho> since the page is *almost* defaults
10:48:10 <tusho> and the conditiony people will have better defaults for themselves anyway
10:48:33 <AnMaster> tusho, your have a bg image, that is even worse then ;)
10:48:41 <tusho> AnMaster: no, I'm fine with styling
10:48:55 <tusho> but when it's almost defaults and the reason for the most obvious non-default is so that non-accessible users get it better...
10:49:04 <tusho> then you might just wanna let the user's browser decide anyway :P
10:49:31 <AnMaster> tusho, but I want to set some colours, and if you set any you should set most according to w3c
10:49:42 <tusho> AnMaster: why do you want to set some colours
10:49:57 <AnMaster> because the default link colors are worse
10:49:59 <tusho> the only real thing you change is link hover (which doesn't really matter), and visited link(very close to the default anyway)
10:50:05 <tusho> not very noticable
10:50:24 <tusho> plus i am sure there are people who find it very hard to read lower-contrast stuff
10:50:31 <tusho> that's why it's harder, but still not very hard to read for me
10:50:35 <tusho> so you can't please everyone :^)
10:50:48 <AnMaster> indeed you can't please everyone
10:51:05 <tusho> why please the people with that condition
10:51:12 <tusho> you can please everyone by letting them decide
10:51:16 <tusho> via their browser :P
10:51:37 <AnMaster> http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Feso-std.org%2F&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0
10:51:43 <AnMaster> Error Line 3, Column 351: Element pre not allowed as child of element ul in this context. (Suppressing further errors from this subtree.).
10:51:44 <AnMaster> …O</a></h1><nav><ul><pre class="error">
10:51:49 <tusho> because of the php error.
10:51:59 <tusho> which i am about to fix.
10:52:05 <tusho> i just had to find the habari function i needed to define $pages
10:52:19 <AnMaster> http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/check?uri=http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0 <-- huh "Line 4615, Column 0: character "]" not allowed in declaration subset"
10:52:39 <tusho> AnMaster: that's a beta version
10:52:49 <tusho> weird breakage though
10:53:20 <AnMaster> tusho, nor do I have the line ] anywhere
10:53:36 <tusho> AnMaster: it's an error in the xhtml 1.1 dtd it uses
10:53:41 <tusho> "declaration subset"
10:53:46 <tusho> and ] features in dtd definitions a lot
10:53:52 <tusho> and of course it's gonna be long
10:54:09 <AnMaster> Insecure dependency in eval while running with -T switch at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0/HTTP/Message.pm line 413.
10:54:09 <AnMaster> For help, please send mail to the webmaster (ot@w3.org), giving this error message and the time and date of the error.
10:54:31 <AnMaster> http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Frage.kuonet.org%2F%7Eanmaster%2Fcfunge%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=XHTML+1.0+Strict&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.603
10:55:26 <tusho> http://eso-std.org/ whoops
10:55:35 <tusho> forgot to restrict it to pages only
10:57:17 <tusho> probably in mzingi
10:58:48 <tusho> Posts::get(array('content_type' => 'page', 'status' => Post::status('published')))
10:59:08 <tusho> but habari is well-designed and coded and all that
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10:59:46 <tusho> i can understand why they picked php, though
10:59:58 <tusho> you know - the whole "most used, understood & deployed" thing :P
11:00:29 <AnMaster> "most misused, misunderstood & misdeployed"
11:00:41 <tusho> it doesn't matter, it works
11:00:49 <tusho> and it scales quite often.
11:00:54 <tusho> more than rails, at least
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11:03:43 <tusho> http://eso-std.org/ hmm, why is that happening...
11:04:56 <tusho> http://www.css3.info/preview/box-shadow/ i'd so use this for the menu bar if ff3 supported it. :p
11:05:07 <tusho> t'would look quite neat
11:05:15 <tusho> less exaggerated than those examples ofc
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11:09:25 <tusho> it works perfectly
11:12:53 <tusho> view the source of http://eso-std.org/
11:12:57 <tusho> i put the non-whitespace-compressed version up
11:13:01 <tusho> it is definitely noticably slower
11:13:10 <tusho> and the page code is just wasteful & ugly & silly
11:13:25 <tusho> <a href="http://eso-std.org/experment#comments" rel="comments">
11:21:54 <tusho> AnMaster: more processing work & if i'm gonna warp it to avoid that wasteful ugly whitespace I might as well just make it tiny
11:22:05 <tusho> and it's only 24 lines of shell. less actually
11:22:10 <tusho> since it handles uploading already
11:22:24 <tusho> just counted, 8 lines
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12:04:51 <optbot> Mony: ...this is too good to pass up.
12:05:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and if game designers want to keep making things more realistic without spending *billions* on each new game, it's necessary..
12:05:15 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | right.
12:05:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Among other things, that compiler has the idea of scope. Mine has just a global scope. . ..
12:05:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | goedle showed that if you have a formal system(??) that is strong enough(??) there are things that aren't part of the system.. but the negation of the ting isn't part of the system either....
12:05:43 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm... actually i might be wrong about you being american.
12:05:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ...or that.
12:05:52 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Put it at the unicode name..
12:05:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | øø.
12:06:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | augur : There is one!.
12:06:16 <oklopol> okay, i'm not sure i'm satisfied with anything :)
12:06:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | or rather I wrote a substantial part of that code.
12:06:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | writing a whole OS in BF would be mind-boggling..
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12:19:31 <optbot> tusho: %reduce $$^x^yx^x^yx^x^yy
12:19:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >>> bf ;* <<< 10.
12:19:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Personally my experiences wrt. the fixability of Debian and Gentoo have been exactly the opposite, but on the other hand I haven't touched Gentoo since 2003 or so..
12:19:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | partly because nobody believes you until they've seen the code.
12:19:44 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that's essentially what we need.... multiple interpreters..
12:19:53 <tusho> i liked the preivous one
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12:45:28 <tusho> http://eso-std.org/why-i-ve-seen-a-goddamn-post-on-here-that-tests#comment-29
12:45:31 <tusho> clearly I am oklopol
12:49:20 <Mony> my poor duck.... with no beak :'(
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13:05:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: for 3DSP, FP_ZERO doesn't exist
13:05:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm that is in C99 specs. sorry
13:06:11 <AnMaster> and there is no other way to avoid "floating point ==" warning
13:06:36 <Deewiant> "floating point ==" warning is often stupid and wrong
13:07:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and this is legal C99 still
13:07:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway did you try it on linux?
13:08:42 <AnMaster> if (fpclassify(v[2]) != FP_ZERO)
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13:25:57 <tusho> and I power lots of machines
13:26:01 <tusho> but I am not lean, nor do I clean
13:26:09 <tusho> *machine rhymes a bit more
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13:41:02 <Deewiant> tusho: heh, still working on that GDC
13:41:14 <tusho> just waiting for someone to give me instructions
13:41:20 <tusho> and pretending to be thinking about it intently to any who asks
13:41:49 <Deewiant> so you can't be bothered to try building GCC?
13:53:50 <Deewiant> welp, that's what he's making you do anyway
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14:52:49 <tusho> Your trial activation key will expire in 3 days. Please purchase a permanent activation key in order to ensure continuous use of the product after the trial period expires.
14:52:52 <tusho> go fuck a butt parallels
14:59:18 <AnMaster> tusho, will you reset your clock or what will you do?
14:59:31 <tusho> AnMaster: find a key somewhere i guess.
14:59:52 <tusho> AnMaster: no, because i'd quite like to ... you know. use it
15:00:02 <AnMaster> tusho, there are plenty of free such apps for linux you know
15:00:15 <tusho> but parallels is faster & has coherence mode
15:00:17 <AnMaster> virtualbox, vmware-server, qemu....
15:00:27 <tusho> AnMaster: yes but it's slower
15:00:40 <tusho> besides, even with coherence mode, parallels takes it to an extreme
15:00:48 <tusho> seamless drag-n-drop, a dock icon for each windows app, etc
15:00:53 <tusho> it's very pleasant and I don't feel like giving it up
15:01:30 <tusho> lemme check how much
15:08:22 <AnMaster> well I would just not use the software
15:08:40 <tusho> AnMaster: that would be an option if I didn't have a use & indeed regularly do use its features
15:09:02 <tusho> AnMaster: actually i'm not
15:09:04 <tusho> because i can pirate it
15:09:31 <tusho> piracy isn't theft, I have next to no moral qualms with it
15:09:38 <Deewiant> I think that's a relatively fair price to pay for an indefinite license if you use it a lot
15:10:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tried rc/funge and cfunge on linux yet?
15:10:07 <tusho> Deewiant: apart from the fact that I just *don't have* that kind of money to give on a piece of software that happens to make my game & web developing life easier
15:10:57 <Deewiant> tusho: so you're SOL like AnMaster said, you can't get the best software you want :-P
15:11:08 <tusho> Deewiant: yes i can, I can pirate it. :p
15:12:44 -!- OkloThePol has changed nick to oklopol.
15:13:03 <oklopol> —NickServ— This nickname is registered. <<< read this as "this nickname is retarded"
15:13:49 <tusho> "piracy is wrong and mean" <- disagreed. :p
15:15:23 <oklopol> i don't really give a shit, especially as i don't really think i'm going to be a programmer when i grow up
15:15:53 <oklopol> more like a computer scientist or something
15:25:16 <tusho> Hmm. Now WHY is that happening.
15:26:23 <AnMaster> well ok, I will be 19 before the end of the year
15:26:34 <Deewiant> stop making me feel old, you people :-P
15:27:47 <AnMaster> who is the oldest person here?
15:28:06 <oklopol> oerjan is somewhere around that too, 3x
15:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I got the design plan for a 98 version of efunge pretty much done, except I'm not sure how to do fingerprints at all
15:32:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, who was it that was making a haskell funge?
15:32:37 <Deewiant> google hsfunge, you may find it
15:32:51 <AnMaster> Your search - hsfunge - did not match any documents.
15:33:00 <AnMaster> funktio, hey what was the url to your funge?
15:36:10 <CO2Games> Ok I've got my first release of DFParser done
15:36:34 <AnMaster> http://funktio.awardspace.com/misc/hsfunge/
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15:44:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume you want that on your mycology page too
15:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | now you can't solve the problem "two threads on a dual cpu system being able to transfer data between them using a queue" problem one one of those systems.
15:46:15 <AnMaster> funktio, there? I tried to compile hsfunge but got this error:
15:46:20 <AnMaster> Could not find module `Data.Time.Calendar.Julian':
15:46:20 <AnMaster> Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
15:46:46 <AnMaster> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.8.2
15:47:20 <funktio> it should be in the libraries that come with ghc: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/time/Data-Time-Calendar-Julian.html
15:47:33 <AnMaster> funktio, I know no haskell, just wanted to try it out
15:47:52 <AnMaster> anyway I use the binary useflag for haskell, so that means some binary download, not locally compiled one
15:47:53 <fizzie> AnMaster is prescient? At least here the version output appeared before funktio's question.
15:48:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, no, just trying to be helpful
15:48:26 <AnMaster> since that would be a question I would ask
15:48:35 <fizzie> I think you're trying to hide your freaky mutant powers by saying that.
15:48:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, if I had such powers, wouldn't I be able to fix this error?
15:49:09 <fizzie> Maybe the powers are limited? How would I know, I'm not the prescient one here.
15:49:31 <AnMaster> anyway funktio, what commands should I try next?
15:50:33 * AnMaster runs a check to see if all md5sums matches on the ghc package
15:50:37 -!- fungot has joined.
15:51:08 <fizzie> Ho, had completely forgotten to revive fungot after having to reboot that computer.
15:51:09 <fungot> fizzie: night folks :) well the simple solution is to have
15:51:13 <ihope> "ghc-6.8.2: internal error: R_X86_64_32S relocation out of range: (noname) = 0x7fa8eb7e54f8"
15:51:26 <ihope> So, the GHC error hasn't magically vanished over here.
15:52:42 <AnMaster> I mean, how mature is it seen in years
15:52:53 <AnMaster> so why so much more popular these days?
15:53:04 <AnMaster> I mean I only heard about haskell a few years ago
15:54:11 <AnMaster> funktio, all files but /usr/lib64/ghc-6.8.2/package.conf match so far, scan is still running
15:54:30 <AnMaster> no idea about that package.conf, from the look of it, it looks like other packages may have changed it
15:56:19 <AnMaster> scan finished, just that one changed
15:56:32 <AnMaster> my guess is that other haskell libraries add themself into that file
15:56:38 <AnMaster> which seems to be the case reading it
15:58:22 <tusho> AnMaster: haskell has experienced a growth
15:58:26 <tusho> just like ruby a few years ago
15:58:28 <tusho> except less chaotic
15:58:46 <tusho> but yes, haskell derived from Miranda (1987) and such
15:58:46 <AnMaster> erlang is experiencing such a growth around now I think
15:58:53 <tusho> with the latest standard revision being 1998
15:59:03 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but far far more slow and stuff, so barely notiacble
15:59:09 <AnMaster> tusho, wikipedia says haskell "Appeared in 1990"
15:59:26 <tusho> and the last conference and the standard resulting, etc, is Haskell'98
15:59:41 <tusho> the next version, colloquially Haskell' (Haskell Prime) is being worked on slowly
16:00:35 <CO2Games> http://uploads.co2games.com/DFParser.exe :D
16:03:45 <AnMaster> if it was actually the source being posted I might have looked at it... but posting a windows binary... how useless
16:05:08 <AnMaster> first I got no windows, only linux, second I wouldn't trust a binary
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16:09:36 <tusho> CO2Games: 'why the ni
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16:12:25 <tusho> CO2Games: what do you mean
16:12:49 <CO2Games> Where does it say why the nix?
16:13:27 <oklopol> nix is the plural form of nick.
16:13:30 <AnMaster> CO2Games, the *normal* way in the esoteric community is to publish the source
16:14:14 <oklopol> is it an official way btw?
16:14:26 <tusho> yes, source would be nice
16:14:32 <tusho> but you're insinuating that he's posted a virus in #esoteric
16:15:28 <oklopol> viruses are awesome, i wish they were legal to create and spread
16:15:51 <CO2Games> I could infect school computer systems for fun
16:15:54 <tusho> only nice viruses though
16:15:59 <tusho> like ones that put mice on your screen
16:16:02 <tusho> until you click them
16:16:11 <tusho> and you can never move them
16:16:31 <tusho> you see the other's desktop
16:16:37 <tusho> your mouse runs on to the others from yours
16:16:37 <oklopol> i was thinking more like invisible ones
16:16:38 <CO2Games> Every time it is run it is a rick roll and changes its name
16:16:42 <tusho> and you see it poop some germs out
16:16:44 <tusho> and then walk back
16:16:50 <tusho> and then germs turn into another worm
16:17:09 <tusho> while the rat is moving across on to the others
16:17:15 <tusho> everything you say into the microphone is said by your rat
16:17:17 <tusho> on the other's computer
16:17:21 <CO2Games> But the 10th time it shows meatspin porn
16:18:29 <CO2Games> You think I should post the source?
16:18:51 <oklopol> not really, i prefer programs being black boxes.
16:21:02 <oklopol> see i can just give random responses until you're happy :)
16:21:19 <oklopol> it's called simulated annealing
16:21:36 <fizzie> See, fungot doesn't want any source.
16:21:36 <fungot> fizzie: the reason why he wanted the xml/ xslt step there
16:21:48 <fungot> fizzie: in that case."
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16:26:01 <tusho> CO2Games: pastebin.ca
16:28:28 <tusho> So paste them all with //filename at the top,
16:28:30 <AnMaster> hm I think it is possible to complete every task in a non-turing complete language, to be exact some specific non-turing complete language
16:28:41 <AnMaster> apart from making a turing complete language interpreter
16:29:17 <AnMaster> you just need something like HQ8+ but with one extra instruction, for the task you want to handle
16:29:53 <tusho> AnMaster: ...duh...
16:30:23 <tusho> if a program sees a character and reacts to it it can do anything it wants!
16:30:29 <tusho> AnMaster: it wasn't very funny
16:30:30 <CO2Games> Oh perhaps I should have zipped it
16:30:37 <tusho> CO2Games: perhaps you should pastebin it
16:33:00 <CO2Games> http://co2games.com/DrainFuck.zip
16:37:05 <CO2Games> Yeah yeah I know it shouldn't be a class but I might work with it some more
16:37:34 <AnMaster> I just wondering if you were doing what I thought you were
16:37:59 <fizzie> It's a wrapper for an "unsigned short" that does not do much.
16:38:56 <fizzie> And the code needs nonstandard itoa, _getch and <conio.h>, although that's pretty trivial to fix if you want it to compile on a Unixy system.
16:39:45 <fizzie> It has that _getch, which does "get a character from the keyboard in an unbuffered way".
16:40:26 <AnMaster> CO2Games, won't work on anything but windows then
16:41:05 <AnMaster> <fizzie> And the code needs nonstandard itoa, _getch and <conio.h>, although that's pretty trivial to fix if you want it to compile on a Unixy system.
16:41:31 <CO2Games> So how do I get something like getch that works on unix systems?
16:41:45 <fizzie> On the other hand, the POSIXy way (tcsetattr to mangle terminal modes, plus fgetc) won't work on Windows.
16:42:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, using ncurses could work on both I guess
16:42:31 <CO2Games> #ifdef _WIN32 and #ifdef __unix__
16:42:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you have a Windows curses implementation. There is at least pdcurses that I know of.
16:42:43 <tusho> why not just use getch() CO2Games?
16:42:49 <tusho> pressing enter for input is standard brainfuck behaviour
16:42:54 <AnMaster> getch, wgetch, mvgetch, mvwgetch, ungetch, has_key - get (or push back) characters from curses terminal keyboard
16:43:08 <tusho> CO2Games: yes it is
16:43:09 <fizzie> I think tusho means getchar/fgetc.
16:43:16 <tusho> CO2Games: see: every interpreter ever
16:43:21 <tusho> I could bombard you with c sources if you want
16:43:36 <tusho> but you're the newbie and I've written like 10 brainfuck interpreters and a few compilers and read many more...
16:43:40 <tusho> so...i'd just trust me on this one
16:43:41 <CO2Games> Brainfucking Machine gets a single character
16:43:46 <tusho> enter for input is very standard behaviour
16:43:52 <tusho> CO2Games: then it is the exception
16:44:09 <CO2Games> But pressing enter for a single character is SO inefficient
16:44:13 <AnMaster> CO2Games, gets a single char from the existing buffer yes
16:44:20 <tusho> that's why you enter a line at a time CO2Games
16:44:24 <tusho> hello world<ENTER>
16:44:31 <tusho> wow you said what i said<ENTER>
16:44:32 <tusho> wow you said what i said
16:44:49 <tusho> that is how every brainfuck interp works, apart from broken ones
16:45:06 <CO2Games> Enter is not the way this should be done
16:45:27 <CO2Games> Besides I had to google a lot of shit to find getch
16:46:08 <CO2Games> ,[.,] echos input after a newline
16:46:15 <tusho> CO2Games: it's simple
16:46:17 <tusho> the source for , is
16:46:23 <tusho> value_of_tape_at_pointer = getchar()
16:46:26 <tusho> value_of_tape_at_pointer = _getch()
16:46:45 <tusho> CO2Games: no it does not
16:46:53 <tusho> it is a lot better than your version for a wide variety of programs
16:47:20 <CO2Games> Think about games. What if you had to press enter every time you pressed w
16:47:40 <tusho> you couldn't write a game in brainfuck
16:47:43 <tusho> besides, that is a totally different issue
16:47:48 <tusho> games access the keyboard directly
16:48:01 <tusho> yes but it's a text adventure
16:48:04 <tusho> not the FPS style he is thinking of
16:48:18 <AnMaster> fps game would suck in brainfuck
16:48:57 <fizzie> For one thing, with _getch() like that the "speed" of the game would depend on your keyboard repeat rate and only move when you have some key pressed.
16:49:32 <fizzie> (Or does it return immediately if there's a key pressed? It might do that. Doesn't help much with the timing of a game there.)
16:50:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, would work for turn based games like nethack though
16:50:15 <CO2Games> And what is it I'm supposed to do about itoa
16:50:42 <tusho> restructure your code so you don't have to use it
16:50:46 <tusho> i.e. what are you using it for?
16:50:58 <tusho> Use printf("%i", foo)
16:51:19 <tusho> that's more memory-efficient anyway
16:51:25 <tusho> since you should free() the itoa return iirc
16:51:55 <fizzie> This itoa looks like it uses a supplied buffer.
16:51:59 <CO2Games> so printf( prints to the screen?
16:52:18 <fizzie> char itoabuf[20]; puts(itoa(parseresult,itoabuf,10)); ... still, there's no reason not to use printf there.
16:52:56 <fizzie> Well, Visual C++ has the MSDN documentation installed usually.
16:53:14 <tusho> "so printf prints to the screen"
16:53:17 <tusho> You, my friend, should stop writing C.
16:53:20 <fizzie> There's a C library reference in there somewhere, I've seen it.
16:53:27 <AnMaster> read the fcking msdn documentation, though I pitty you if you do ;)
16:53:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you wouldn't like him to read the MSDN documentation
16:54:00 <Deewiant> they typically say stuff like "the POSIX function foo() is deprecated, use the ISO conformant _foo() instead"
16:54:58 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah printf() is the same level as "hello world"
16:55:13 <AnMaster> or since it is C++ he could just use cout << number;
16:55:18 <Deewiant> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms235327(VS.80).aspx
16:55:50 <Deewiant> wasn't itoa a POSIX extension?
16:56:10 <fizzie> Yes, they just call it a "posix function" since it's where they keep other stuff like that.
16:56:24 <Deewiant> guess not, it was just a K&R function
16:56:37 <fizzie> It's just common, but not POSIX.
16:56:58 <AnMaster> I implement my own one, more like ltostr, since it can handle various odd bases
16:57:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but in any case, "ISO C++ conformant" in MSDN generally means that you should just use _foo because that's what the ISO C++ standard says implementation-defined names should be like
16:57:44 <fizzie> In any case, the code is C++, not C. (Although it uses C IO and only a couple of bits like some namespace declarations and "<cfoo> instead of <foo.h>" headers.)
16:58:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it is misleading
16:58:16 <Deewiant> in a way it's good that they're saying "this probably won't work on all C++ compilers"
16:58:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they forgot "implementation specific"
16:58:33 <Deewiant> fizzie: I always use C IO in C++ programs :-P
16:58:48 <AnMaster> I always just use C and cut away the C++ crap
16:58:54 <AnMaster> for one, C is way more portable
16:58:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: I usually just write C if I have no use for C++.
16:59:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: if you restrict yourself to POSIX anyway your C is just as portable as C++ :-P
16:59:16 <AnMaster> you can find C compilers for almost any system made since 1990
16:59:30 <Deewiant> yeah, and they won't be POSIX-compliant
16:59:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed but I need some stuff from POSIX really
16:59:51 <AnMaster> fork() for example in PERL fingerprint
16:59:56 <Deewiant> yeah, exactly, so there's no point in using C instead of C++
17:00:03 <AnMaster> I agree C99 is a bit less common
17:00:06 <Deewiant> at least no /portability/ point
17:00:16 <Deewiant> C++ is much more portable than C99
17:00:21 <Deewiant> and no, it's not really changing
17:00:35 <CO2Games> hey do most unix shells support pause?
17:00:36 <AnMaster> both tcc and pcc are aiming for C99
17:01:01 <Deewiant> CO2Games: if you want to use system("pause") just use getchar() instead
17:01:19 <CO2Games> But what if there is another char in the buffer
17:01:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if the program waits at the end I would kill it
17:01:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: whether you press ^C or enter the results are the same
17:02:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: The ^C hurts the program more. :p
17:02:40 <Deewiant> fizzie: you're not supposed to use something like that except at the end of main() anyhoo
17:03:09 <AnMaster> never use system("pause"); at the end of main
17:03:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: would you really open a new shell and "kill -9" without even pressing enter if the program looks to be doing nothing?
17:03:52 <Deewiant> only if you double-click-opened it
17:03:54 <CO2Games> unless you use cmd to get at it
17:04:11 <fizzie> It's a command line program, I would assume to use the command line to run it.
17:04:12 <Deewiant> if you want to write a non-console program then write a non-console program
17:04:20 <Deewiant> I have 2 cmd prompts open as we speak
17:04:28 <AnMaster> CO2Games, you just alienated about half the people here
17:05:02 <CO2Games> Wait you mean I'm not the only one who actually likes cli?
17:05:06 <fizzie> In any case, if you're doing the #ifdef thing already, you can stick your system("pause") or whatever in #ifdef _WIN32 or whatever it was.
17:05:49 <Deewiant> hmm, I guess you can't detect whether a process was started via cmd or not
17:06:06 <AnMaster> is your brainfuck implementation even optimising?
17:06:19 <AnMaster> like combining >>> into a "move 3 cells"
17:06:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think almost all do it
17:06:45 <Deewiant> almost all that people who develop in BF use, probably
17:06:55 <Deewiant> almost all that people who just try out BF use, probably not :-P
17:07:14 <CO2Games> Actually I have a 0 command for that
17:07:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, all bf interpreters I mean
17:07:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I know what you meant, and I disagreed
17:07:42 <AnMaster> CO2Games, seems pointless, [-] is a standard idiom
17:07:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: You could use GetConsoleProcessList to check if cmd.exe is still attached to the console (I'm thinking it could stay there even during program execution) but only on XP or Vista.
17:08:05 <CO2Games> And I didn't know about the wrapping in brainfuck when I made it
17:08:06 <fizzie> It's not faster if you optimise [-]. :p
17:08:24 <AnMaster> since most interpreters will change [-] into "set 0"
17:08:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: when would you check that, it's always attached no?
17:08:43 <fizzie> Fungot's interpreter won't. :p
17:08:43 <AnMaster> certainly my basic def-bf compiler does some basic stuff like that in no-jump zones
17:09:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't think it is if you start a program with a double-click and windows ends up creating a new console window for it.
17:09:44 <Deewiant> fizzie: it will be "explorer.exe/whatever -> cmd.exe -> program" and not "explorer.exe/whatever -> program", or am I misunderstanding
17:10:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: Uh, explorer.exe will definitely not be attached to the console, and I really don't think cmd.exe is involved if you start a console executable directly.
17:10:40 <Deewiant> fizzie: I'm just talking about what starts what process
17:11:08 <CO2Games> This would be easier if they hadn't removed dos from windows
17:11:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, ok. But I don't think cmd.exe is involved when you run console executables, Windows just creates a console window if the program needs one.
17:11:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: Of course I'm no Windows person, this is all mostly speculation.
17:12:00 <AnMaster> iirc you need to call something like CreateConsoleA(a lot of parameters, several pointers to structs)
17:12:22 <Deewiant> damn, I was fairly sure a cmd.exe would be spawned
17:12:23 <fizzie> If it's compiled as a "console application", there's some magic to do it automatically.
17:12:35 <fizzie> I don't remember how that works.
17:12:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes that sounds familiar
17:13:06 <fizzie> Considering the uselessity of cmd.exe, I don't really see any reason to use it in there.
17:13:21 <Deewiant> uselessity? it's much better than DOS :-P
17:13:29 <fizzie> Does it even do job control?
17:13:36 <Deewiant> and I still think it's better than any alternatives on windows
17:13:45 <Deewiant> I never use job control anyway, though
17:13:54 <fizzie> Well, then, I see no reason to run a program under it in that case.
17:14:00 <GregorR> An interesting albeit impossible study would be to find compiler histories of major compiler binaries. e.g. the GCC in Debian was compiled by an older GCC in Debian, which was compiled by an even older GCC, etc etc, until you get the GCC in Debian compiled by the GCC from (perhaps) SLS, then the GCC in (an earlier) SLS compiled by the CC from Minix, which was probably ultimately bootstrapped by aBSD C compiler, which in turn was probably ultimately boo
17:14:00 <GregorR> tstrapped by an AT&T UNIX C compiler, which ultimately was bootstrapped by the original K&R BCPL language IIRC.
17:14:22 <Deewiant> "impossible" is quite right. :-P
17:14:25 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> and I still think it's better than any alternatives on windows <-- powershell?
17:14:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: haven't tried it TBH
17:14:47 <AnMaster> and I agree with fizzie about job control
17:14:54 <Deewiant> some people say it sucks, some people like it
17:15:01 <fizzie> I don't know the alternatives, but there was a 4dos variant, something like 4nt. This was "some time ago", I think.
17:15:04 <Deewiant> what's so important about job control, what do you use it for
17:15:24 <fizzie> I liked 4dos, never tried 4nt.
17:15:24 <Deewiant> and it's non-free anyway, so that's that :-P
17:15:32 <Deewiant> cmd.exe has most of 4dos's features
17:15:39 <fizzie> Of course with 4dos the point of reference was command.com, so...
17:16:08 <fizzie> As for job control, it's not that I'd be constantly using it, I just see no reason to involve cmd.exe in the execution of an application if the cmd.exe isn't going to _do_ anything.
17:16:20 <fizzie> (Except open a console or something.)
17:16:34 <Deewiant> in executing an individual application, certainly
17:16:37 <AnMaster> um if you mean a console window I would prefer konsole
17:16:44 -!- cherez has joined.
17:16:46 <Deewiant> but in general I run more than a single program in a cmd.exe :-P
17:16:54 -!- cherez has quit (Client Quit).
17:16:55 <fizzie> Yeah, sure, you can use it interactively.
17:16:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I often run stuff with &
17:17:14 <Deewiant> what kind of stuff do you run with &?
17:17:19 <AnMaster> for example make > make.log 2>&1 &
17:17:29 <AnMaster> then I would do other stuff while I wait
17:17:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is true for lots of other things too
17:17:41 <Deewiant> okay, I guess that makes sense
17:17:46 <Deewiant> I haven't felt the need though
17:17:52 <fizzie> In that sort of situation I just spawn more shells, generally.
17:18:32 <fizzie> Even fungot's running in the foreground, since it breaks so often and I want to see the raw IRC messages which made it crash.
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17:18:33 <fungot> fizzie: my experiences with x-chat haven't been pleasant at all. thing is though, if it was
17:18:42 <Deewiant> I generally spawn more shells as well
17:18:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and does it even handle basic programming on command line?
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17:19:18 <Deewiant> not that I often need that, either :-P
17:19:31 <AnMaster> for i in 199{0..9}; do wget http://www.no.ioccc.org/${i}/${i}.tgz; tar -zxf ${i}.tgz; done
17:19:55 <AnMaster> was just first example with for from my command line history
17:20:01 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, you're speaking to the IRC server directly with a socket. There's no x-chat there. How would you even get x-chat in your little chroot jail?
17:20:02 <fungot> fizzie: but i don't know where the fnord level' of syntactic closures, and the
17:20:15 <fizzie> That bot is seriously messed up.
17:20:15 <Deewiant> for /L %i in (1990,1,1999) do wget ...%i/%i.tgz ...
17:20:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, functions on command line?
17:21:42 <Deewiant> hmm, not sure how to do command blocks actually
17:21:45 <AnMaster> for example I wrote this when I was testing on envbot:
17:21:46 <AnMaster> profile() { local n=$1; shift; while (( n-- )); do "$@"; done; }
17:22:29 <AnMaster> mostly pure bash vs. external tools
17:22:44 <AnMaster> in general pure bash is faster for smaller data sets due to fork() overhead
17:22:46 <tusho> AnMaster: you use goto
17:23:01 <AnMaster> tusho, you can't use goto to another line in interactive shell
17:23:10 <tusho> you can goto another label
17:23:14 <AnMaster> which is *very very* different
17:23:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so can you use that for loop in interactive shell?
17:23:49 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway we were talking about interactive shell
17:23:51 <Deewiant> like said, probably doesn't support functions
17:24:11 <AnMaster> I want to be able to work in interactive shell when coding bash
17:24:15 <Deewiant> interactive shell can do everything *.bat can
17:24:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you can't do flow control at all
17:25:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still... not enough I suspect
17:26:55 <fizzie> Enough to satiate AnMaster's insane bloodlust for shell programming.
17:28:46 <AnMaster> I very often write functions directly on command line
17:29:03 <Deewiant> I don't think I have ever written a function on the command line
17:29:15 <AnMaster> well of course, cmd.exe doesn't support it
17:29:27 <Deewiant> I do use linux as well, you know :-P
17:29:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah so you tested cfunge and rcfunge noe?
17:30:04 <Deewiant> nah, I've been doing school work most of the day
17:30:04 <AnMaster> and started updating that page
17:30:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think sf.net wouldn't like me to do 2 releases in 2 days
17:30:28 <AnMaster> so next will wait at least a week
17:30:47 <fizzie> Release early, release often, they say.
17:31:04 <AnMaster> for 1 fixed bug + a few cygwin support bits?
17:31:10 <ihope> What if you have no code?
17:31:39 <fizzie> It's one more file-pile for sf.net to keep indefinitely in the repositories, I guess.
17:31:46 <ihope> Can you release a source file consisting entirely of comments?
17:32:07 <fizzie> Still, I really don't think they'd care much.
17:32:19 <AnMaster> and freshmeat got some policy against it
17:32:46 <AnMaster> "another week, another release" I heard some project use
17:32:53 <AnMaster> but never "another day, another release"
17:33:18 <AnMaster> (btw, I think that was inspircd in some release announcement for some beta version of 1.1)
17:33:21 <tusho> another day, another release is a spectacular idea
17:33:23 <Deewiant> another commit, another release
17:33:25 <tusho> though only for early phases
17:33:34 <tusho> a release every 3 days is then suitable
17:33:39 <tusho> until the program is stable
17:33:48 <tusho> in which case a release every half month to a month is reasonable
17:33:53 <AnMaster> so maybe I'll publish an errata :D
17:34:08 <tusho> AnMaster: but esoteric software projects and little things like cfunge are...not stable software, ever
17:34:13 <tusho> they classify as early/mid development
17:34:16 <tusho> so: a release every 1-3 days
17:34:29 <tusho> c-intercal is huge enough to justify a proper release schedule
17:34:33 <tusho> AnMaster: no, you don't get my point
17:34:40 <tusho> esoteric projects are different in that they're small and unimportant
17:34:46 <tusho> so it's best to release very often
17:34:53 <tusho> instead of artificially delaying it
17:34:55 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes i did
17:35:00 <tusho> I've looked at cfunge.
17:35:23 <AnMaster> $ ~/src/ohcount-1.0.1/bin/ohcount src lib
17:35:23 <AnMaster> Language Files Code Comment Comment % Blank Total
17:35:23 <AnMaster> -------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
17:35:24 <AnMaster> c 95 9833 3963 28.7% 1910 15706
17:35:30 <AnMaster> -------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
17:35:32 <AnMaster> Total 97 9947 4127 29.3% 1955 16029
17:35:41 <AnMaster> oh and cpp = some headers using C++ reserved words for other stuff
17:35:52 <AnMaster> that that line counter can't understand is really C
17:37:02 <AnMaster> tusho, do you call around 10 000 lines of code small?
17:37:14 <Deewiant> what languages does ohcount support?
17:37:35 <AnMaster> since it is used for ohloh.<whatever>
17:37:35 <Deewiant> for small values of "lot" probably
17:37:41 <tusho> AnMaster: when it's doing fucking trivial stuff and is only big because your code sucks and you microoptimize for no reason, yes.
17:38:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, more than one screen with one per line
17:38:37 <Deewiant> ohloh.net used to say Tango was written in shell... guess it's more accurate now
17:39:14 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/4htZpB57.html
17:39:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, https://www.ohloh.net/projects/dtango/analyses/latest has D
17:39:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and as you can see, it's at the bottom
17:39:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, I may have a non-recent version here
17:39:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: at the bottom of your paste, I meant
17:40:04 <tusho> So. Anyone want to sway my domain choice from tusho.net? (.net is effectively general like .com but .com looks bad for a personal site to me, .org is kind of correct but 1. i may wanna sell somethign on there that I made at some point..dunno what 2. i'm not an organization 3. the g dangling looks weird compared to the tusho, and .name looks kinda weird as in "tusho.name" - it's the "correct" one to use, but I don't like how "name" is as big as "tusho" when "t
17:40:13 <tusho> hope that all got through if not tell me where it was cut
17:40:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway it is a fair list, even though far from all
17:40:30 <tusho> usho" is the important part)
17:40:30 <Deewiant> tusho: use a client that can split it for you
17:40:37 <tusho> So. Anyone want to sway my domain choice from tusho.net? (.net is effectively general like .com but .com looks bad for a personal site to me, .org is kind of correct but 1. i may wanna sell somethign on there that I made at some point..dunno what 2. i'm not an organization 3. the g dangling looks weird compared to the tusho, and .name looks kinda weird as in "tusho.name" - it's the "correct" one to use, but I don't like how "name" is as big as "tusho" when "t
17:40:38 <tusho> usho" is the important part)
17:41:35 <AnMaster> <tusho> usho" is the important part)
17:41:51 <tusho> my message is too long
17:41:56 <AnMaster> tusho, there was no t in either pace
17:42:08 <fizzie> I saw one, and there is one in Deewiant's paste.
17:42:10 <tusho> So. Anyone want to sway my domain choice from tusho.net? (.net is effectively general like .com but .com looks bad for a personal site to me, .org is kind of correct but 1. i may wanna sell somethign on there that I made at some point..dunno what 2. i'm not an organization 3. the g dangling looks weird compared to the tusho, and .name looks kinda weird as in "tusho.name" - it's the "correct" one to use, but I don't like how "name" is as big as "tusho" when
17:42:12 <tusho> So. Anyone want to sway my domain choice from tusho.net? (.net is effectively general like .com but .com looks bad for a personal site to me, .org is kind of correct but 1. i may wanna sell somethign on there that I made at some point..dunno what 2. i'm not an organization 3. the g dangling looks weird compared to the tusho, and .name looks kinda weird as in "tusho.name" - it's the "correct" one to use, but I don't like how "name" is as big as "tusho" when
17:42:13 <tusho> "tusho" is the important part)
17:42:32 <tusho> okay. now can further discussion be about the content of the message, not its presentation? :P
17:42:39 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/U1actx90.html
17:42:50 <AnMaster> something dropped the t here then
17:42:51 <tusho> "okay. now can further discussion be about the content of the message, not its presentation? :P"
17:43:23 <fizzie> I think we're finding the presentation more interesting than the content.
17:43:38 <Deewiant> I still think .name is the way to go
17:44:02 <fizzie> I still think you should've formatted the message as a triangle.
17:44:10 <tusho> AnMaster: please stick to the possible possibilities.
17:45:55 <AnMaster> tusho, .net would imply that you are related to network operations
17:46:10 <AnMaster> which they hadn't changed that
17:46:56 <tusho> but I am a pragmatist
17:47:05 <tusho> today, .net is completely generic
17:47:14 <tusho> and feels the most generic too
17:47:20 <tusho> as opposed to .com which still feels slightly commercial
17:51:12 <fizzie> Maybe all three of .com/.net/.org, with the others redirecting to .net; then later on you can use tusho.com for your evil multinational corporation, and even later "the tusho foundation" can start using .org for their charity work.
17:51:25 <tusho> fizzie: That's three domains and therefore 3x$$$ :P
17:51:48 <fizzie> Oh, sure, if you're going to be _cheap_ about it...
17:52:35 <AnMaster> well.. anmaster foundation doesn't have the same ring to it
17:52:47 <AnMaster> would probably prefer to use my real name in such a situation
17:52:59 <tusho> THE AVID NORLANDER FOUNDATION
17:53:03 <tusho> imagine that in some ye olde serif font
17:53:17 <tusho> Deewiant: recalled from memory
17:53:21 <tusho> isn't that his name
17:53:25 <AnMaster> isn't it a video editing system
17:53:43 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure Avid is some high end video editor
17:54:23 <AnMaster> tusho, probably just my family name in that case but heh
17:54:24 <Deewiant> maybe I read "avid" as applying to the foundation as a whole
17:54:40 <Deewiant> like "the awesome foundation of X"
17:55:31 <AnMaster> "the awesome and most supreme secret society of"
17:56:09 <AnMaster> something like mason lodges or whatever they are called over there
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18:27:45 <tusho> any further comments on the domain name thing
18:27:48 <tusho> if not...tusho.net register go
18:29:23 <tusho> AnMaster: we are in a thing known as an "internet relay chat"
18:29:32 <tusho> we "discuss ideas" and "have debates"
18:29:36 <tusho> i was attempting to do the former
18:44:58 <tusho> should I use the private domain stuff?
18:45:04 <tusho> So that people can't link tusho to Elliott Hird easily.
18:46:01 <fizzie> Given your reaction to that picasa face-detection tagging thing, I would assume so. Personally I haven't bothered with the whois privacy thing, though, but that's mostly laziness.
18:46:17 <tusho> It bumps the cost from £5 to £10, though.
18:46:39 <fizzie> Oh. I think my current (not cheap at all) registrar provides it for free.
18:46:51 <fizzie> Should update the address in the domains, actually, moving next Saturday and if I don't fix it now it'll stay wrong for a year or two again.
18:47:06 <fizzie> register4less.com, I think. There was a link to it in userfriendly. :p
18:47:22 <tusho> I am using mydomain.com
18:47:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, if it is uf, then yes it is register4less.com
18:49:04 <tusho> Anyone have cheap registrar with private registration suggestions?
18:51:34 <fizzie> I'm grepping my logs. :p
18:51:36 <tusho> Timing out and registering anyway with privacy one assuming no further input...beep....
18:51:55 <fizzie> I don't think I'll find anything very interesting there, so go ahead if you want.
18:52:04 <tusho> fizzie: Well, it costs $8.55 for domains
18:52:09 <tusho> and $6.99 to add privateness.
18:52:34 <tusho> Deewiant: per year
18:52:45 <tusho> (yeah, sweating the small stuff ;))
18:53:12 <Deewiant> if you want the privacy, go for it
18:53:21 <Deewiant> if you don't, of course not then :-P
18:54:58 <fizzie> R4L is $15 a year, I think. I'm certain there have been multiple discussions about domain registration, with suggestions and everything, but I can't seem to figure out the correct words to grep for.
18:56:05 <fizzie> Good, though, can stop grepping.
18:58:02 * tusho turns off auto-renew
18:58:27 <tusho> Wait, why would I?
18:59:20 <tusho> Kind of anticlimatic, of course. :P
19:01:57 <tusho> tusho.net resolves already
19:02:25 <Mony> it's burgertime to kick ass !
19:02:45 <Mony> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=pqJ2vBIv130&eurl=http://www.dsfanboy.com/2008/07/23/its-burgertime-to-kick-ass/
19:19:24 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:19:32 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:44:27 <tusho> http://tusho.net/blog/
19:45:57 <ihope> Your post is written in such a way that I wanted to read it quickly. I approve.
19:46:26 <ihope> I almost wish I had a blog.
19:55:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:55:58 -!- puzzlet has joined.
20:00:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:02:40 <tusho> oerjan: happy birthday
20:03:26 <tusho> oerjan: think you're the oldest here, then
20:04:13 <oerjan> and you may be the youngest i guess
20:04:26 <tusho> asierkerkrkerkerkaa is younger
20:04:33 <tusho> he was 10 when I was 11 or 12
20:04:41 <tusho> but yes, second-youngest
20:05:39 <ihope> My days of being second youngest are even more over than my days of being youngest.
20:05:46 <ihope> Wait, that's not right.
20:05:49 <tusho> ihope: You're 15, that's ancient.
20:05:55 <tusho> We've had tons of 13-14 year olds in here, I believe.
20:06:51 * ihope puts on a gray wig and grabs a cane
20:06:59 <tusho> Being the youngest ... isn't really an advantage. :P
20:07:10 <ihope> I can be the wisest! >:-)
20:07:11 <tusho> Heck, when I turned 13 last month I suddenly stopped being an illegal liar! (COPPA) Yayyyy.
20:07:22 <tusho> ihope: You can be Honorary Wisest.
20:11:43 <oerjan> i'll be the honorary stupidest then
20:11:59 <ihope> I don't think the opposite of wise is stupid.
20:12:01 <oerjan> or maybe two titles is a bit much
20:12:39 <ihope> Can I be both Honorary Wisest and Honorary Navest?
20:12:54 <oerjan> you can be Honorary Paradoxicalest
20:14:05 <ihope> You mean Most Honorary Paradoxical.
20:15:54 * ihope straps the obligatory boards
20:16:08 <oerjan> i refuse to lower myself to mere english grammar
20:17:05 <AnMaster> you make me feel old, and I'm 18
20:17:15 <AnMaster> why are the average age so low in the channel
20:17:33 <AnMaster> what about someone (not me) doing a mass highlight and asking
20:17:57 <tusho> AnMaster: it isn't
20:18:02 <tusho> we have two packets of ages
20:18:12 <tusho> average age 15.5 and average age around 20 or so
20:18:25 <tusho> obviously, me and asie and deveah are at the very low end of the first packet
20:18:35 <tusho> and oerjan & calamari are at the very very high end of the second packet
20:18:38 <tusho> possibly a packet of their own
20:18:47 <tusho> but it's only 2 people so i bet it's just the regular odd ones out you get
20:18:54 <tusho> so the second packet
20:19:54 <AnMaster> puzzlet OkloThePol cherez kar8nga Mony olsner bsmntbombdood_ sebbu2 CO2Games GregorR SimonRC fizzie funktio lament Deewiant mtve RodgerTheGreat moozilla dbc lifthrasiir rodgort! Wake up! Stop idle (sorry if this included some non-idlers too)
20:20:28 <AnMaster> too many idlers on this channel
20:20:40 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/GraphScript/ <- play with this
20:20:43 <olsner> ... and one too many spamming AnMaster's :P
20:21:00 <tusho> AnMaster: you know, you're a jerk.
20:21:30 <tusho> you woulda thought you'd learn, having witnessed me doing that at least 2 times in the past...
20:21:37 <GregorR> What was that? Advertise something? http://codu.org/lingo/lingo.html
20:21:41 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I took it as a good example
20:21:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, no just trying to make non idlers get active
20:22:01 <tusho> guess what: They don't go active.
20:22:05 <tusho> They yell profanities at you then disappear.
20:22:24 <tusho> Anyway, if it's advertisement time... http://tusho.net/blog/
20:22:34 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/
20:22:35 <tusho> GregorR: I do not get that.
20:22:59 <tusho> As if we could forget cfunge.
20:23:18 <GregorR> Guess five-letter words. If the letter is correct and in the correct location, it'll be orange, if it's correct but in the wrong location, it'll be yellow.
20:23:20 <RodgerTheGreat> someone design a programming language inspired by this: http://www.pown.it/1100
20:23:32 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: ok i'll pick someone randomly
20:23:38 <tusho> Choice selected: RodgerTheGreat
20:23:40 <Mony> omg AnMaster, let me be idle :)
20:23:55 <GregorR> Deewiant: Has to be real words :P
20:23:56 <ihope> Cool, we've had... stuff.
20:23:56 <Deewiant> GregorR: oh, you explained that game of yours, heh, missed that
20:23:57 <tusho> Deewiant: http://codu.org/lingo/lingo.html
20:23:58 <AnMaster> <RodgerTheGreat> someone design a programming language inspired by this: http://www.pown.it/1100 <-- empty kate
20:24:04 <tusho> Deewiant: (needs javascript)
20:24:06 <tusho> AnMaster: it uses flash.
20:24:10 <tusho> so you might as well give up there.
20:24:24 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, what is it about? I got no flash
20:24:42 <tusho> It is about Colin Mochrie.
20:25:34 <RodgerTheGreat> AnMaster: it's a kaleidoscope of dancing and techno music. I propose a rave-based language.
20:25:43 <tusho> The dancing is Colin Mochrie.
20:26:09 <tusho> oerjan: Here, I told you where the bathroom is: http://tusho.net/blog/yes#comment-14
20:26:13 <Mony> [21:04] <tusho> now i'm 13 <-- so young \o/
20:26:16 <tusho> I believe you were looking for it.[1]
20:26:23 <tusho> [1] http://tusho.net/blog/yes#comment-13
20:26:50 * ihope downloads GraphScript
20:27:10 <tusho> graphscript looks neat
20:27:23 <tusho> from the description before i looked at the ref though I was expecting PostScripts APL
20:27:32 <tusho> which would be amazing also
20:29:07 <RodgerTheGreat> it's not as powerful as PS yet, but it has a number of useful features
20:29:29 <RodgerTheGreat> you can do recursion and self-modification, and it's very easy to integrate with other applications
20:30:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm currently working on tweaking the interpreter to handle errors more gracefully and adding some commands that'll let you create and manipulate data structures
20:31:06 <tusho> AnMaster: It's java!
20:31:13 <tusho> You don't have much luck with RodgerTheGreat links.
20:31:22 <tusho> Good luck with that.
20:31:57 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it has a much better chance of working with something like gcj than one of my games
20:32:24 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, that input marker. isn't it blinking rather quickly
20:32:34 <AnMaster> I mean it is like 200-300 blinks / second
20:32:47 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, no idea, I used appletviewer http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/GraphScript/
20:33:16 <RodgerTheGreat> the application version is much more comfortable to work with
20:33:32 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, do you have a hello world example?
20:34:46 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, make paste work in applet
20:35:02 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, what is so special about this language=
20:35:06 <RodgerTheGreat> but download the application version and you'll be able to copy and paste and stuff
20:35:18 -!- cherez has left (?).
20:35:38 <RodgerTheGreat> it's simple, it's in pure java, it can do many of the basic things PS can do.
20:35:45 <tusho> and it's rather esoteric
20:36:00 <AnMaster> I mean, Feather makes me go "wow"
20:36:07 <RodgerTheGreat> it's stack-based, it has reasonably powerful graphics and math capabilities. What more do you want?
20:36:10 <tusho> not all languages are incredibly world-shattering, AnMaster
20:36:12 <AnMaster> but this is more like: "ok nice, however not my cup of tea"
20:36:19 <tusho> feather is one of those, but...
20:36:39 <AnMaster> tusho, well it may not shatter, it could if you rewrite it to do so ;)
20:36:51 <ihope> Is /// world-shattering?
20:37:06 <tusho> oerjan: british idioms, go figure
20:37:11 <tusho> AnMaster: ihopeylanguage
20:37:16 <oerjan> a language mixing Chef with a Japanese tea ceremony
20:37:22 <AnMaster> tusho, was trying to add idioms ;)
20:37:36 <AnMaster> tusho, someone said I lacked that, so why not add it
20:37:58 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I assume it was correct usage?
20:38:07 <tusho> you're not british. stop that. ;)
20:38:08 <ihope> /// is that language that's like a horrible version of Thue.
20:38:23 <RodgerTheGreat> it's not world-shattering, but GS has very elegant semantics and will soon have very elegant data structure manipulation. Think the simplicity of LISP data structures done in a different way.
20:38:53 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: it'd be interesting if the program was a graphic itself, not like piet, but in the sense of lines squares and such
20:38:59 <tusho> and it modified its own playfield, with it off to the side
20:39:03 <tusho> (infinite playfield)
20:39:09 <tusho> loops would be drawing over yourself to self-modify
20:39:20 <RodgerTheGreat> it could be done, but that's not suitable for what this is designed for
20:39:47 <RodgerTheGreat> most of the things I design try to be more utilitarian than just straight-up weird
20:39:56 <AnMaster> and: it would make me go not "wow" but "cool, nice!"
20:41:02 * ihope tries to randomly generate interesting /// programs
20:41:48 <AnMaster> ihope, got a link to a wiki page about ///?
20:43:07 <tusho> AnMaster: why not search the wiki.
20:43:10 <AnMaster> searching for /// on the wiki didn't workj
20:43:18 <AnMaster> tusho, it doesn't work on the wiki
20:47:17 <AnMaster> ihope, how does /// print stuff?
20:48:35 <AnMaster> does it simply output the program itself at the end?
20:48:42 <RodgerTheGreat> AnMaster: it just "prints" what the program boils down to
20:48:53 <RodgerTheGreat> when it can't evaluate any more expressions, the result is printed
20:49:15 <oerjan> actually i think it prints underway
20:49:29 <oerjan> whenever the program starts with something other than /
20:49:45 <RodgerTheGreat> the main reason I'd wager it's not turing complete is that your programs are constantly fighting some serious entropy
20:49:52 <AnMaster> now what computational class is this
20:49:58 <AnMaster> I'd guess it isn't turing complete
20:50:02 <ihope> AnMaster: Nobody Knows(TM).
20:50:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: we never managed to produce a nontrivial loop
20:50:20 <RodgerTheGreat> you can construct logic networks, so you can compute a lot of things
20:50:30 <oerjan> or prove that one doesn't exist
20:50:31 <ihope> You can certainly do many finite computations.
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20:51:12 <RodgerTheGreat> the more complex the contents of the loop, the more complex the loop
20:51:22 <ihope> Maybe its computational class is uncomputable.
20:51:54 <AnMaster> hm try implementing various ones
20:51:59 <ihope> Storage is theoretically infinite, but knowing that's useless if you can't produce a non-trivial infinite loop.
20:52:31 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a very intriguing language, because it seems so *possible* for it to be TC
20:52:45 <ihope> Oh, right, it's that.
20:52:56 <AnMaster> fsa would be finite-state automaton
20:52:58 <ihope> How's that different from FSA, again?
20:54:42 <AnMaster> I find the computational models rather hard to grasp(right word?)
20:54:48 <ihope> Well, we've pretty much already attempted an FSA of sorts. The problem is how to circumvent... the difficulty.
20:55:10 <ihope> Hard to grasp, indeed.
20:56:48 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, maybe "able to solve any specific problem for specific in-parameters"?
20:56:49 <RodgerTheGreat> but on the FSA/BSM thing, the reason they're equivalent is because you could map every combination of machine state/storage contents to an FSA state, because they'd be enumerable
20:57:41 <AnMaster> or try to send some innocent letter to some scientist and ask a innocent looking question about it, hoping they get interested
20:58:24 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. Maybe I'll slip something under my compiler theory professor's door and see what comes of it.
20:58:42 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, heh, maybe he will come up with a lot of work on it later on :D
20:59:54 <ihope> "Hi. I was reading a book about Thomas Nettleton when the author mentioned this notation he commonly used. I'm having trouble figuring out how to express certain things in this notation. Could you help me? [Insert description of /// here]"
21:00:37 <RodgerTheGreat> or be more forthcoming and ask about the computational class of the language
21:01:11 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
21:01:15 <AnMaster> anyway something could work yes
21:03:35 <ihope> More forthcoming: "I was reading an old book, now out of print, about computer science when the author mentioned a famous language based on replacement. He stated that finding its computational class was left as an exercise for the reader. I'm having trouble figuring out what it is. Could you help me?"
21:03:36 <dbc> Okay, I'm not idling right now.
21:03:58 <AnMaster> ihope, that would be slightly lieing
21:04:33 <AnMaster> ihope, and what if he/she asks "what book"?
21:05:11 <ihope> AnMaster: tell him it was "An Introduction to Computer Science".
21:05:37 <ihope> Or "Elementary Computer Science".
21:05:48 <AnMaster> sounds like that title has been reused
21:05:57 <ihope> They're very reusable titles.
21:06:09 <AnMaster> now risk is asking for ISBN or something like that
21:06:25 <RodgerTheGreat> An Introduction to the Fundamentals of Elementary Computer Science for Beginners"
21:06:27 <ihope> Tell him it doesn't have one, or that you've been unable to find it.
21:07:00 <AnMaster> anyway since I'm in last year of high school now, I suggest someone at higher level
21:07:03 <AnMaster> maybe RodgerTheGreat could do it
21:07:49 <RodgerTheGreat> or say "Hey, Dr. Carr- I found an interesting language online, and I'm curious about it's computational class: [/// semantics]"
21:08:11 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: also known as Russell and Norvig and Douglas and Goedel and Escher and Bach and Mozart and Beethoven and Bourbaki's Really Big, Really Green Bookabouts.
21:08:26 <ihope> Or suchabouts, anyway.
21:09:27 <oerjan> ihope: too few painters i think?
21:12:22 <oerjan> except douglas is such a common name i cannot find out who you mean
21:12:47 <RodgerTheGreat> AnMaster: here, stalk him or whatever it is you do: http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~carr/
21:14:21 <tusho> Yay, http://tusho.net/ now has a real front page and an about page
21:17:01 <oerjan> "You should have been redirected to tusho.net. Tell me this happened!
21:17:12 <tusho> just adding that code
21:17:56 <oerjan> also, he likes really big fonts
21:18:06 <tusho> only for that page
21:18:12 <tusho> it's meant to be simple and direct :P
21:18:16 <tusho> tusho blogs, tusho is...
21:18:49 <AnMaster> tusho, the font at http://tusho.net/about/ is *WAY TOO LARGE*
21:18:58 <tusho> no it's not, it's lovely
21:19:02 <tusho> and i most certainly did not _forget_
21:19:10 <tusho> anyway, it's meant to fit in the theme of the homepage
21:19:33 <oerjan> i'm sure he remembers it quite vividly
21:19:43 <tusho> yes, i don't tend to forget my age all the time
21:19:51 <tusho> but i also don't go around telling anyone either.
21:20:13 <fizzie> I do; I always have to ask other people, or start subtracting years. It is very difficult.
21:20:31 <oerjan> apparently tusho is male, and a penguin
21:20:53 <tusho> a messenger penguin sent by the gods in particular
21:20:59 <tusho> (The story behind that one is... odd.)
21:21:22 <oerjan> stranger things have happened
21:22:27 <fizzie> In the Discworld mythos, Patina, goddess of wisdom, carries a penguin on her shoulder. </trivia>
21:22:28 <tusho> (In another channel, the topic was "things to reply when annoying people asked you asl", and someone put "penguin" in the S field. Meanwhile, someone else was taking a "WHAT KIND OF PERSON ARE YOU" test for kicks and it turned out they were a messenger of the gods. Since the two messages came in such close proximity, I /nick PenguinOfTheGods'd. Then I decided I needed a new email account soon after, and...)
21:22:33 <tusho> Think that got all through
21:23:34 <tusho> no, penguin is a sex.
21:23:57 <oerjan> but then you cannot also be male
21:24:15 <tusho> and very soon the LHC will prove it!
21:24:19 <tusho> i am a higgs bosom
21:25:00 <oerjan> ah but when the LHC goes online, the world will be rewound to August 10, 1983
21:25:11 <tusho> and then i shall become POKEY THE PENGUIN!!
21:26:57 <oerjan> until that tragic accident
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21:30:59 <tusho> that wiki guy who added tons of languages in his userspace
21:31:02 <tusho> and made a sitemap of his userspace
21:31:07 <tusho> and weird categories and stuff?
21:31:12 <Slereah_> Yeah. I saw he added back all the Esco links
21:31:26 <tusho> just makes it even hilariouser
21:31:34 <tusho> [[Tusho stop removing the esco link it is not spam and it has been there for a while. Unless you got consensus from admins or the rest of the community do not make such an edit without sufficient support. This is not your it is Graue's site so please do not remove the link if you do so again I'll report you. --Melab 18:31, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ]]
21:31:47 <tusho> I'd paste him snippets of our irc chat but he'd just cut himself.
21:33:54 <Slereah_> Let's make a consensus on EsCo.
21:34:19 <oerjan> assuming esco actually implements those languages, i agree with Melab on that
21:34:57 <oerjan> even if the implementation should not be top quality in someone's view
21:35:35 <tusho> oerjan: it's not to do with the implementation quality
21:35:57 <tusho> i could go into specifics, but it might be simpler for you just to grep esco in your logs and read
21:36:18 <tusho> ask someone who does :p
21:36:31 <tusho> Nevertheless, it was quite an active channel at the time and there was pretty clear consensus for removing the links.
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21:39:32 <tusho> oerjan: afraid not.
21:44:42 <oerjan> (for the discussion, in case that wasn't clear :D )
21:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | uhm why are you skipping 10 bits in the 8->7 translation?.
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21:50:03 <OkloThePol> hi all of you i'm new here what's this channel about
21:50:55 <oerjan> it's about raising undead evil gods and stuff like that
21:51:43 <oerjan> with or without tentacles
21:51:48 -!- OkloThePol has changed nick to oklobol.
21:52:12 <oklobol> i'm all for hot babes, but tentacles not so much what's the channel for no tentacles but still babes?
21:52:47 <oklobol> there's no one there when do all the babes come?
21:53:35 <oerjan> all the babes have tentacles these days
21:53:46 <oklobol> it seems one of my numerous brothers wants to use the computer, so, see ya
21:53:48 -!- oklobol has changed nick to oklopol.
21:54:48 <fizzie> Gah, a whole hive of oklopols.
21:55:35 <oerjan> spawn of one of those undead gods, undoubtedly
21:56:02 <oklopol> undead god? now *that's* immortal
21:56:29 <oerjan> also immoral but they don't care
21:57:14 <oerjan> i mean given how hard they are to kill in the first place, you'd think they'd have the decency to stay dead
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22:13:38 <tusho> Slereah: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Melab/Esco
22:13:42 <tusho> could his user subpages get any uselesser
22:14:06 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Melab/Directory
22:14:08 <tusho> Hey! His sitemap is back!
22:30:18 <GregorR> Can somebody of fixing the grammars on EsCo page?
22:32:56 <tusho> Can someone _remove_ the EsCo page?
22:33:16 <tusho> hmm, I wonder why we're calling it EsCo
22:33:19 <tusho> it's called "esco"
22:33:24 <tusho> we must get these things right!
22:34:26 <Slereah> Because it's Esoteric Compiler
22:34:41 <tusho> It's Esoteric Combin
22:34:52 <tusho> and read their page! In its Infinite Wisdom, it uses LOWERCASE "esco".
22:38:30 <GregorR> Mass murder/suicide/gay orgy?
22:39:07 <Slereah> I WILL SHOVE MY DICK THROUGH YOUR EYE SOCKET
22:39:10 <tusho> Ok, so we have to kill ourselves while murdering the others, while sexually stimulating each other.
22:39:18 <tusho> Ah, combine the first and the last.
22:39:38 <Slereah> I just got back from a day of gay sex
22:39:38 <tusho> 3..2...1...OOOOOHYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHFGHFAHFGAHJFGFJAHFGJAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAyyyghdufhuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:39:40 <GregorR> I'm finding it difficult to ... err ... "motivate" myself
22:39:49 <tusho> Hm. Looks like I did just the suicide part.
22:40:00 <tusho> Apparently I find suicide sexually attractive.
22:40:03 <tusho> That's some sucky fetish.
22:40:48 <Slereah> Does the suicide have to succeed?
22:40:54 <oerjan> and here i thought you were blowing things out of proportion already...
22:43:19 <GregorR> Is @_@_@ supposed to be a (disembodied) eye rolling?
22:44:16 <oerjan> i thought that much was obvious.
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22:46:50 <Slereah> None of his fav languages are mine :,(((
22:47:12 <tusho> Slereah: Esco doesn't even implement them. It's UNIVERSAL.
22:47:17 <tusho> That's how much you suck.
22:48:29 <tusho> Is there a wiki admin anywhere?
22:48:32 <tusho> Obliterate this crap: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Melab/Jumble
22:48:39 <tusho> Banging on a keyboard does not a page make.
22:49:37 <Slereah> I guess he proved you wrong there!
22:49:48 <tusho> That innovator. Such a great thinker.
22:54:12 <oerjan> he sure knows how to push buttons
22:54:53 <Slereah> Maybe it's a secret esoteric troll
22:55:15 <Slereah> Maybe he's that Esme guy too D:
22:57:46 <tusho> Whateve!!!!!Whateve!!!!!Whateve!!!!!WHATEVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:58:14 <oerjan> the esolang that _really_ doesn't care
23:12:10 <Slereah> That was a great Melab article right there
23:12:16 <Slereah> Let's put it on his user page
23:12:34 <tusho> read his early contributions
23:12:39 <tusho> he wants User: and user_talk: pages to be locked
23:12:43 <tusho> so that people can stop others editing them
23:12:50 <tusho> do you wish to deny the god of esco?
23:13:11 <Slereah> Maybe we should just make him admin
23:14:10 <Slereah> "if you do so again I'll report you"
23:14:20 <tusho> to the higher authorities
23:14:26 <tusho> i'm so scared of him!
23:15:27 <Slereah> He'll bend you into the shape of a 2,3 machine with his bare hands!
23:15:51 <tusho> i'll be turing complete
23:16:33 <Slereah> You'll be TC only for programs of infinite length D:
23:16:47 <tusho> it's ok, my penis is infinite
23:16:49 <tusho> I can just write programs on that
23:16:59 <Slereah> Also you'll have a really shitty way to express results
23:17:13 <tusho> I'll shit out the results?
23:18:49 <Slereah> You'll be on the same level as EsCo then!
23:19:38 <tusho> So let's get this straight, I'd be horribly mutilated into the shape of a turing machine, where I will write programs on my infinitely long penis, and then shit out the results? And the reward for that is infinite memory.
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00:15:59 <AnMaster> <fizzie> In the Discworld mythos, Patina, goddess of wisdom, carries a penguin on her shoulder. </trivia> <-- ah, another Discworld fan :)
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00:22:13 <GregorR> <fizzie> can't be closed with </trivia>!
00:23:50 <CO2Games> i've also removed the logging of actions after seeing a 40 GB output.log file
00:40:11 <tusho> From the page: " Please, write the 99 bottles lyrics go to hell" They did it wrong.. I suppose it's up to me. for(int i=99;i>=0;i--) Well for some reason StumbleUpon doesn't like the little arrows, so I'm going to replace them with spaces. But you all know what I mean. cout "We've got " i " bottles of beer on the wall! " i " bottles of beer! Take one down, pass it around, we've got " i-1 " bottles of beer on the wall!" I know it isn't perfect, but fuck of
00:40:29 <tusho> Not fungot output.
00:40:30 <fungot> tusho: if followed by any number of
00:40:36 <tusho> http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP
00:41:28 <tusho> so, one last plug befroe the day is done
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03:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that's the point.
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08:54:51 <fizzie> You are a bol this time.
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09:03:25 <oklobol> well sure, but this is a respectable nick.
09:03:38 <oerjan> as long as you are not Prozac the Bear
09:36:03 <oklobol> was thinking about this programming language that enforces good programming style by somehow guaranteeing there are errors in the program, something like you supply a seed at the beginning of the program, and it's used to make small random adjustments to variables at certain points; every function has a separate assert block, if it catches the error, the function works normally, otherwise, well, you just get the error
09:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | factor is too destructive for my tastes.
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10:07:09 * oerjan whacks his brain for wanting to make an o tower
10:12:01 <oklopol> i call it "space ship who knows what true love is"
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12:08:52 <AnMaster> hm, rcfunge may beat cfunge in speed at mycology, but cfunge is way way faster than both rcfunge and ccbi at life.bf
12:12:03 <funktio> about how fast do those interpreters run mycology.b98?
12:12:32 <funktio> mine took about 3s last time I timed
12:14:17 <AnMaster> I can't test your on my cpu since it doesn't compile for me
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12:14:57 <AnMaster> GOOD: P pushed 0 for socket without data
12:15:52 <AnMaster> funktio, for rcfunge: not sure, since it's TURT opens a window, and that blocks
12:16:00 <AnMaster> so it depends on how fast I click close
12:16:40 <funktio> does that affect the user time?
12:17:22 <AnMaster> and for my own efunge in erlang: only 93 yet
12:17:29 <AnMaster> but it is a bit faster than this morning
12:18:58 <AnMaster> but all the other interpreters beat it at life.bf, iirc you can find it at catseye's 93 page
12:19:18 <AnMaster> for cfunge it is so fast it looks like a motion picture here ;)
12:21:27 <AnMaster> funktio, http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/life.bf
13:14:41 <tusho> Slereah: befunge-93 is 80x24
13:15:37 <funktio> "The Befunge-93 specification restricts each valid program to a grid of 80 instructions horizontally by 25 instructions vertically."
13:15:56 <Slereah> I forgot, is the game of life supposed to be only TC if you allow some infinite patterns?
13:17:18 <tusho> they have to frolick.
13:17:30 <tusho> also the turing machine with finite tape is like 5000000x5000000
13:17:47 <Slereah> What's the computational power of a game of life with an infinite space but only finite starting patterns
13:18:46 <tusho> Slereah: Anyway, it's literally fixed
13:18:49 <tusho> in that interp they cannot grow
13:18:52 <tusho> beyond the initial size
13:18:57 <Slereah> I had sex with your mother
13:19:02 <Slereah> I fucked her, with my dick
13:19:10 <Slereah> Yes, but I am still wondering
13:19:18 <tusho> that was an interesting tangent
13:19:38 <Slereah> Let's see if Wikipedia can answer this
13:19:49 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_life
13:19:54 <Slereah> This is not what I expected.
13:20:17 <tusho> I had/have that game.
13:20:17 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life
13:24:10 <Slereah> "It ties in closely with an earlier discovery by John Conway of an extremely dense packing of unit spheres in a space of 24 dimensions where each sphere touches 196,560 others. As Conway has remarked, "There is a lot of room up there.""
13:40:24 <AnMaster> <Slereah> I forgot, is the game of life supposed to be only TC if you allow some infinite patterns?
13:40:31 <AnMaster> well that instance is clearly not TC I agree
14:28:23 <oklobol> infinite initial patterns?
14:28:44 <Slereah> That's what I'm trying to remember
14:28:57 <Slereah> an you have something TC in GoL with only finite initial patterns?
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14:29:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ccbi --version, what is it
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14:30:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, CCBI - Conforming Concurrent Befunge-98 Interpreter version 1.0.13
14:31:10 <Deewiant> and 1.0.14 had a couple of sock/scke-related fixes in it so I would hope it doesn't crash :-)
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14:43:19 <mtve> oh, my game of life on befunge was mentioned here today, thanks :) it was done 12 years ago btw.
14:44:59 <Slereah_> I think my computer-related achievments back then was playing Indiana Jones 4.
14:49:53 <tusho> how did you get that game of life so tiny?
14:50:36 <tusho> mtve: confirm/deny?
14:53:10 <mtve> confirm that it was done by me? well, you can dig befunge maillist archives circa 96
14:53:25 <tusho> no, confirm that it is so small because of gremlins
14:53:30 <mtve> tiny becase i was trying to leave as much room for the field as possible
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15:13:53 <Slereah> "OPERATING SYSTEM VULNERABLE TO VIRUS AND SPYWARE! ME RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGH FIX IT! LINUX! PROBLEM SOLVED!"
15:22:46 <Slereah> http://i.somethingawful.com/fashion/espanolSWAT/01.jpg
15:22:55 <Slereah> Is it written "ESCO" on the top left?
15:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evasion_%28book%29.
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16:13:48 <asiekierka> Hi... http://worlds-highest-website.com/
16:14:06 <asiekierka> And http://www.tetris1d.org - currently at 9600
16:14:54 <tusho> Is now a good time to plug http://tusho.net/?
16:15:54 <tusho> asiekierka: re /msg me, I didn't get it
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16:20:36 <asiekierka> Well, what happened in the esolang world during my 1-month absence?
16:20:51 <Slereah> We made a language out of ham
16:21:09 <asiekierka> I want to make a BF "Hello World" cookie box
16:21:21 <tusho> You want to make _everything_ BF, asiekierka.
16:21:24 <tusho> (You never do, though.)
16:22:16 <asiekierka> http://www.lalalaa.com/ - the best song of the year, also has different versions
16:23:14 <Slereah> I wonder if I can leave 1d tetris in the background until it reaches the score limit
16:32:26 <Slereah> This is how we spend our time on #esoteric
16:32:42 <tusho> 252555555555555555555
16:34:08 <asiekierka> sometimes tetris1d just stops by itself
16:36:58 <asiekierka> Tetris 1D is the work of satan himself
16:37:12 <Slereah> Well, Tetris is the devilish work of communists
16:38:33 <asiekierka> He already planned years in hell for him for making something FUN
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16:39:02 <tusho> i am going to make something like nethack, except:
16:39:07 <tusho> 1. massively multiplayer
16:39:17 <tusho> because that will be phun
16:39:40 <tusho> you know what i do with good ideas?
16:39:55 * asiekierka does tusho since he's actually a good idea
16:40:06 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie.
16:40:07 -!- asie has changed nick to asies_tusho.
16:40:20 <tusho> but it was my joke before yours
16:40:48 <Slereah> Dudes, it was mine before all of you'z
16:41:10 <asies_tusho> no, tusho, it was my joke, CLONE. You're my clone altogether!
16:41:19 <tusho> Slereah: why do you think i said it
16:41:22 <tusho> i said it like that as a joke
16:41:43 <Slereah> On the matter, I started to feel internet old when someone didn't know what "All your base" was.
16:41:49 <asies_tusho> The only difference between us is that ...
16:42:17 -!- asies_tusho has changed nick to asiekierka.
16:42:34 <asiekierka> Hey... what h-happened? Why are you staring at me angrily, tusho?
16:42:52 <Slereah> tusho is a little cauldron of hate
16:43:08 <tusho> If you know what I mean.
16:43:55 <Slereah> I wonder if there's innuendo in the word innuendo
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16:45:19 <Slereah> Am I going to jail for pedophilia?
16:45:23 <tusho> I didn't invent that one, actually.
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16:45:32 <tusho> But feel free to love me.
16:46:36 <tusho> play the one i am making
16:46:40 <tusho> (multiplayer webhack)
16:46:52 <tusho> I am not cybersexing.
16:47:08 <tusho> I put on my robe and wizard hat.
16:47:21 <Slereah> I put on my leather costume.
16:47:33 <Slereah> It's not cybersexing, I'm a barbarian >:|
16:47:50 <asiekierka> We are in a infinite black box. What do we do?
16:48:06 <Slereah> I look to see if there's anything.
16:48:06 <tusho> *ahem* I steal yo soul and cast Lightning Lvl. 1,000,000 Your body explodes into a fine bloody mist, because you are only a Lvl. 2 Druid.
16:48:18 <tusho> Robots are trying to drill my brain but my lightning shield inflicts DOA attack, leaving the robots as flaming piles of metal.
16:48:23 <tusho> King Arthur congratulates me for destroying Dr. Robotnik's evil army of Robot Socialist Republics. The cold war ends. Reagan steals my accomplishments and makes like it was cause of him.
16:48:43 <tusho> That's bloodninja, sir.
16:48:51 <tusho> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/bloodninja
16:48:59 <tusho> Edumacate yourself.
16:49:02 <asiekierka> We are somewhere and must figure our way out
16:49:30 <asiekierka> Sorry, Lvl. -1 IRC AsieRoleplayer, i'm Lvl. 3030 IRC AsieRoleplayer
16:50:20 <asiekierka> what was i doing? Oh, playing Pacman on my C64.
16:50:27 <Slereah> You see a jew and a fiddle
16:50:48 <Slereah> I push the jew in the portal
16:51:09 * asiekierka takes the gravity gun, obviously nearer him
16:51:15 * asiekierka takes the portal gun with the gravity gun
16:52:10 * tusho rips off asiekierka's face
16:52:16 <asiekierka> So it'll have no end alre---*starts falling since there's no bottom either8
16:52:36 <Slereah> How can we fall if it's infinite?
16:52:44 <Slereah> The nearest gravity source is infinitely far
16:52:50 <asiekierka> BECAUSE THERE IS STILL GRAVITYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
16:53:17 <asiekierka> IN THIS INFINITEEEEEEE BLACK BOXXXXXXxxyxyyyxyxyxxxxxxxxxxxxzyyxyzyxyyxyzzyxxxxxxxxxx
16:54:31 * asiekierka takes some cubes near him and stacks a tower... [10%]
16:54:37 * asiekierka takes some cubes near him and stacks a tower... [40%]
16:54:38 * asiekierka takes some cubes near him and stacks a tower... [80%]
16:55:16 <Slereah> But if you grab them, you'll give them momentum
16:55:25 <Slereah> Unless they actually float
16:55:39 <asiekierka> They have little engines so they float
16:55:57 <Slereah> But if they have engines, shouldn't they go up?
16:56:21 <asiekierka> While they're falling, they're going up at the same speed
16:56:59 <asiekierka> About the size of 2 mac minis stacked on top of each other
16:57:00 <Slereah> Also, if they're still now, if you grab them, they'll go down
16:57:19 <Slereah> Unless they have little accelerometers to tell them to have more thrust
16:57:42 <asiekierka> Nope, i'm stacking cubes on a cube that was still from the beginning
16:57:46 <Slereah> Also why do we care if we fall, anyway?
16:57:50 <Slereah> Apart from the cubes, everything also falls down, at the same speed
16:58:00 <Slereah> So in a way, all objects are still
16:58:09 <asiekierka> Because... the cubes can power the same amount of power as a single power outlet can :D
16:58:26 * asiekierka connects his C64 to one cube, his laptop to the other, and his TV to another
16:58:47 * asiekierka loads up BASIC and programs some stuff... while noticing something! [25%]
16:58:48 * asiekierka loads up BASIC and programs some stuff... while noticing something! [50%]
16:58:49 * asiekierka loads up BASIC and programs some stuff... while noticing something! [74%]
16:58:51 * asiekierka loads up BASIC and programs some stuff... while noticing something! [99%]
16:59:14 <asiekierka> The BASIC code written on a C64 connected to a cube can manipulate this black box!
16:59:36 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:59:57 <Slereah> What is this, Second Life?
16:59:58 * asiekierka created a floor! It's of enough width and height to cover us all
17:00:28 * asiekierka puts up his laptop as a server with programs downloaded from the i----shit.
17:00:59 * asiekierka takes out his Turbo Pascal 7 copy and programs a server app [1%]
17:01:46 <asiekierka> {{You're still falling, on a cube or on the floor doing something :P}}
17:02:24 <Slereah> I don't have to fear anything
17:02:31 <Slereah> It's not like falling is dangerous
17:02:40 <Slereah> It's landing that's dangerous
17:03:17 <Slereah> I try to have sex with the cubes.
17:03:18 <asiekierka> and the floor can't be even felt... You may think you're still falling if you don't look
17:04:27 * asiekierka makes an infinite wall between slereah and tusho
17:04:43 <tusho> asiekierka: i am a kid too
17:04:43 <asiekierka> *sings quietly* for the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead...
17:04:54 <tusho> if psygnisfive/augur and oklopol are ever in here at the same time
17:04:55 * asiekierka destroys the wall and makes COOKIES from it
17:05:01 <tusho> lest your innocence is destroyed.
17:05:41 <asiekierka> And as the code is manipulating this black box mini-universe... *hits enter*
17:05:58 * asiekierka sees that the whole world turned into an internet-like matrix, where everyone can manipulate everything
17:06:09 <asiekierka> So you can make a malbolge parser for your parts
17:06:50 * asiekierka uses a warp to teleport himself to... a game.
17:06:57 <asiekierka> {{ What would be better, Spore or Portal? }}
17:07:27 <tusho> spore has a buncha penises
17:07:45 <tusho> Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis. Penis.
17:07:49 * tusho watches asiekierka be SCARRED FOR LIFE
17:07:58 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
17:08:08 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:08:16 <Slereah> asiekierka, are you in the closet? :o
17:08:28 * asiekierka goes to the warp to portal no matter what
17:09:02 -!- asiekierka has quit.
17:09:14 <tusho> it's like that bash quote where "fuck" made a guy's router kill irc
17:10:39 -!- sebbu2 has quit (No route to host).
17:11:18 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
17:13:52 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to asiekierka.
17:14:03 -!- asiekierka has quit (Client Quit).
17:14:33 <Slereah> I couldn't and was going to propose him sexual intercourse
17:22:29 -!- olsner has joined.
17:43:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:58:13 * tusho gives bsmntbombdood_ a penis
17:58:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
17:59:15 <Slereah> That's a whole mess of dongs.
18:15:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:20:02 <ais523> tusho: what's with this edit war on Esolang?
18:20:19 <tusho> the esco guy keeps adding the links to all the pages, i keep removing them
18:20:29 <ais523> edit warring is probably not the best way to solve this though
18:20:34 <ais523> maybe discussion would be better?
18:20:36 <tusho> ais523: I only removed them once
18:20:42 <tusho> after he put them back like months after I forgot about eso
18:20:45 <tusho> and yes, we are having a "discusison"
18:20:54 <tusho> (he has threatened to 'report me' and I have explained why they don't belon there)
18:21:08 <tusho> but he didn't add them the first time
18:21:16 <tusho> another escoer (god, I can't believe there's more than one) did
18:21:23 <tusho> and that was months ago
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18:32:34 <tusho> oklobol: every single esolang that esco implemented trivially & badly
18:36:14 <Slereah> http://www.tetris1d.org/tetris.php
18:38:59 <tusho> Slereah: you're up against:
18:39:17 <tusho> <td><p><input type="hidden" id="savescore" name="savescore" value="400">
18:39:23 <Slereah> Well, all I have to do really is not to crash
18:39:54 <ais523> by the way, I've continued working on gcc-bf
18:40:13 <ais523> linker's done, libc and libm are done but not tested, compiler's mostly done, assembler's hardly started
18:40:21 <ais523> I even implemented a filesystem (although haven't tested it)
18:40:33 <ais523> keeping all the files in memory in malloced space
18:41:01 <tusho> "no more cheating."
18:43:15 <tusho> i haxxx'd it successfully but no go
18:46:49 -!- sebbu2 has quit (No route to host).
18:48:30 <tusho> ais523: may interest you: i am working on a web-based, multiplayer nethack
18:48:42 <ais523> tusho: I've been thinking about multiplayer nethack
18:48:51 <ais523> and decided that it would either be very boring or unlike the original
18:48:55 <tusho> yes, since mine is _massively_ multiplayer i've had to make it, err, not nethack
18:49:00 <tusho> it looks like nethack, but it's not turn based
18:49:09 <tusho> the game-made stuff only moves once every N, yes
18:49:11 <tusho> and it does it all at once
18:49:13 <ais523> ah, not turn based is one unlike way to make a multiplayer version
18:49:16 <tusho> but players move as they wish
18:49:31 <tusho> still, it looks like nethack
18:49:34 <tusho> and is hopefully similar enough
18:50:39 * ais523 wonders why they get so much spam in German nowadays
18:50:54 <ais523> I know enough German to tell it's spam, but not to know exactly what it's saying
18:50:56 <tusho> mostly on friends-of-brainfuck which is .de
18:51:11 <ais523> that's not the reason for me
18:52:17 * tusho tries to figure out to make an element have 0-width in css while still being visible
18:52:25 <tusho> i.e. collapse it so that the stuff in front of it goes behind it
18:52:29 <tusho> (for the nametags on other players)
18:53:25 <tusho> margin-right: -100%
18:54:16 <oklobol> esco's interps do not work then?
18:54:32 <tusho> oklobol: they suck ass to the Nth degree
18:54:41 <tusho> they're the trivial, i just-discovered-esolangs type
18:54:46 <tusho> and then they're compounded by the stupidest idea ever:
18:54:53 <tusho> hey why not put them all in ONE EXECUTABLE?!
18:55:00 <tusho> except busybox has a reason
18:55:05 <tusho> and also busybox doesn't suck.
18:56:35 <oklobol> i don't know wha busybox is
18:56:45 <oklobol> what langs has esco implemented?
18:57:26 <tusho> brainfuck, like 2 other boring ones
18:57:29 <tusho> and 2 brainfuck cyphers
18:58:07 <tusho> brainfuck,ook!(bf cypher),spoon(bf cypher),hq9+,whitespace,byter
18:58:19 <tusho> so...three "real" languages (all of whose implementations are incredibly bad)
18:58:29 <tusho> and two trivial brainfuck cyphers
18:59:03 <ais523> incidentally, based on my work on gcc-bf, I've been thinking about writing an incredibly fast BF interp that beats all the existing incredibly fast BF interps
18:59:14 <ais523> by analysing the program to work out what tape elements it's using for what
18:59:19 <tusho> ais523: if you do can I spam you with tons of ideas for optimizations?
18:59:22 <ais523> and where the pointer is at any given moment of times
18:59:31 <ais523> although I haven't started it yet, or even thought about it much
18:59:34 <ais523> and won't do it just now
18:59:41 <tusho> ais523: well, make sure to check out bff.c and mazonka's bf4.c
18:59:46 <tusho> especially bf4.c's linear loop stuff
18:59:54 <tusho> it seems to reduce all the number-generators to just a SET
19:00:29 <ais523> oklobol: not right now, maybe later though
19:00:38 <ais523> <tusho> it seems to reduce all the number-generators to just a SET
19:00:45 <ais523> that's way below the sort of optimisations I was planning
19:00:48 <oklobol> well, basically that would mean i'd start making a bf interp too.
19:00:57 <tusho> ais523: well, yes, but it has tons of stuff like that
19:01:00 <tusho> and is also unreadable
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19:01:29 <ais523> mine would, for instance, realise that you were maintaining every 6th cell as a zero
19:01:41 <oklobol> reducing all number-generators to a set? does that mean "all balanced loops"?
19:02:07 <ais523> oklobol: I was planning to do unbalanced loops too
19:02:25 <ais523> but I think I'll need a blazingly fast interp to test gcc-bf, the way it's going
19:02:41 <ais523> and even though my linker only links the parts it needs, it's still pretty bloaty even for simple programs
19:02:48 <ais523> when stdio streams are involved
19:04:01 <tusho> ais523: bf4 does all unbalanced loops
19:04:14 <tusho> ais523: also ... shouldn't you write a hyper-optimizing ->asm compiler?
19:04:20 <tusho> hyper-optimizing -> llvm
19:04:21 <oklobol> you can't do all unbalanced loops :P
19:04:29 <tusho> so you can have all the crazy assembly tricks
19:04:35 <tusho> oklobol: i mean, balanced
19:04:35 <ais523> tusho: or -> gimple, and have it as a gcc front end?
19:04:46 <tusho> ais523: no, that is too crazy :P
19:04:52 <tusho> plus llvm does more holyshit optimizations, I believe
19:04:55 <tusho> so that'll be beneficial
19:05:10 <ais523> tusho: blue-skies idea: have INTERCAL both as a front end and as a back end to gcc
19:05:51 <ais523> translating -> GENERIC is arguably easier than translating -> C, and gcc has a gimplifier for GENERIC already
19:06:30 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:07:34 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:07:43 <Slereah> Remember that thing I said about needing not to crash?
19:09:31 <tusho> ais523: so you've actually played nethack: should you be able to select another player and see info about them?
19:09:34 <tusho> or just their name hovering beside them
19:09:57 <ais523> tusho: not without a stethoscope
19:10:01 <ais523> you should be able to tell class
19:10:13 <tusho> well, that kind of stuff is coming later :P
19:10:27 <ais523> it'll effect whether they show up as @ or h
19:10:30 <tusho> you can move around a room
19:10:37 <tusho> and bash into people
19:10:43 <tusho> ais523: hmm, i've only ever seen @?
19:10:57 <ais523> tusho: @=human/elf, h=dwarf, G=gnome (among other things, except for the gnome)
19:11:21 <tusho> so, always just @ for now
19:11:26 <tusho> until that SHAMCNY stuff appears
19:13:20 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
19:15:56 <tusho> wow, don woods made advent?
19:16:08 <ais523> don't you read alt.lang.intercal
19:16:17 <ais523> not just him though, a couple of other people too
19:16:41 <ais523> strangely enough, the person mentioning it on a.l.i suggested writing a bf backend to gcc a couple of days /after/ I started work on it...
19:22:26 * tusho giggles at "new Ground"
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19:30:14 <tusho> ais523: how often do you think a game step should be?
19:30:26 <ais523> tusho: not nearly that fast
19:30:39 <ais523> people often spend hours over a game step in genuine Nethack
19:30:47 <tusho> this isn't genuine nethack
19:31:25 <ais523> tusho: I suggest at least giving people a chance to check their inventory
19:31:36 <ais523> say every 20 steps, waiting for a minute or so so people can do non-time-consuming things
19:31:50 <tusho> ais523: i'm thinking of having the inventory always available
19:31:53 <ais523> another example: dropping all your un-BCUd stuff on an altar takes only one turn
19:32:10 <tusho> anyway, the game is going to be like nethack on asynchronicity and crack
19:32:11 <ais523> which is just DX<ret>.<ret> if you know what you're doing
19:32:18 <ais523> but still that takes a while to type
19:32:23 <tusho> having it pause for a minute would kill it
19:32:34 <tusho> ais523: well yea you'd be able to type between turns
19:32:36 <tusho> things would just keep moving
19:32:42 <tusho> even when the turn isn't going, others can still move too
19:32:48 <tusho> and loot you or similar
19:35:02 <tusho> so i think i'll go with 1sec
19:36:02 <ais523> tusho: I don't think it's even possible to give the commands to attack with a reach weapon in 1 second
19:36:27 <tusho> ais523: then you'd take more than one term to perform the action
19:36:40 <ais523> that would make reach weapons rubbish rather than annoying
19:36:41 <tusho> (although i'll be simplifying the bindings ofc)
19:38:02 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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19:38:34 <tusho> ais523: but in a multiplayer environment, delaying e.g. 5 seconds would be unusable
19:38:42 <tusho> you'd all be jittering about quickly while nothing happens
19:38:57 <ais523> not really, you're probably used to playing near the start of the game where there are long periods where nothing happens
19:39:09 <tusho> ais523: nothing can happen mid-ter
19:39:09 <ais523> but later in the game is basically impossible without spending a lot of time on each move
19:39:27 <tusho> so for 5 seconds, the whole game would stop
19:39:40 <tusho> and that would kind of suck, no regular nethack wouldn't work with 1sec
19:39:51 <ais523> that do you mean "nothing can happen mid-term"?
19:40:09 <tusho> because it'd just be players moving somewhere or sitting still typing a command
19:40:16 <tusho> and then they'd have to wait until the 5 seconds were up
19:40:18 <tusho> before it took effect
19:40:26 <tusho> remember, everyone is doing everything at the same time
19:40:34 <tusho> so the turns have to happen at the same time for everyone
19:41:16 <ais523> tusho: they can still queue commands beforehand
19:41:23 <ais523> and a lot of things in Nethack take up no turns
19:41:33 <ais523> such as using a stethoscope, or starting to engrave and then cancelling
19:41:46 <tusho> the point is the only kind of turn I can have is one that happens every N seconds, no matter what, for everyone
19:42:11 <ais523> tusho: what if multiple people try to move onto the same square? That would be chaos
19:42:22 <tusho> ais523: well, moves don't take up a turn
19:42:24 <ais523> or one person raises a drawbridge at the same time another person lowers the same drawbridge
19:42:27 <tusho> so one would get there first
19:42:30 <tusho> and the other would bash into them
19:42:47 <tusho> (moves can't take up a turn, or it'd be slower than a snail)
19:44:06 <ais523> tusho: what about having it completely real-time, don't have turns at all but instead have action timeouts
19:44:26 <ais523> e.g. if you move, you can't move again for a second (2/3 a second if fast, 1/3 a second if very fast)
19:44:29 <tusho> ais523: well, I want all the enemies &etc to move at the same time
19:45:03 <ais523> also different monsters have different speeds
19:45:04 <tusho> because if you moved too far it'd just not be able to catch up to you
19:45:11 <tusho> but you know what i mean
19:45:13 <tusho> the general feel of it
19:45:15 <ais523> warhorses are faster than dragons, which are faster than lichens
19:45:23 <tusho> i am just calling the period where the 1-turn-moving monsters are still a 'turn'
19:45:32 <tusho> even though everything else is realtime
19:45:41 <ais523> Slereah: incredibly slow, but they still have a movement speed, strangely
19:45:49 <ais523> they're faster than yellow moulds, which AFAICT don't move
19:45:52 <Slereah> What are we talking about, too
19:46:04 <ais523> Slereah: Nethack, or tusho's version thereof
19:46:32 <tusho> ha i just realised how appropriate the name "NEThack" is
19:46:51 <ais523> tusho: NetHack was invented by Usenet, that's what distinguishes it from Hack
19:47:22 <tusho> it's called wackem though (nethack -> whack (w for web) -> whackmm (massively multiplayer) -> whackem (pronouncable and meaningful))
19:47:37 <tusho> hmm seems it's actually wackem
19:47:40 <tusho> for shortness, presumably
19:56:20 <tusho> AnMaster: it's my WIP online, massively multiplayer sort-of-like-nethack
19:56:53 <AnMaster> ais523, there are less changes now I suspect to get parts of cfunge to work under cygwin, Deewiant managed to make it work partially
19:57:17 <AnMaster> some fingerprints won't work, and you will get lot of weird warnings
20:00:53 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!").
20:05:33 <AnMaster> ais523, any news? feather maybe?
20:05:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I've been working on gcc-bf
20:05:48 <ais523> and nothing else, really
20:06:09 <ais523> linker basically done, compiler mostly done but not finished, library done but not tested, assembler only just started
20:07:05 <AnMaster> ais523, so "hello world" doesn't work yet?
20:07:25 <ais523> AnMaster: nothing works yet, I'm doing this breadth-first rather than depth-first
20:07:57 <ais523> although if you compile hello world atm, you get a program with stdio and a lot of file stuff linked in, and some rows of +++++ that put a constant string Hello World into memory
20:08:33 <tusho> ais523: didn't use pdclib[sp]?
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20:20:10 <tusho> ais523: can I have the source to your esolang adventure game?
20:20:13 <tusho> I want to do stuff with it, maybe.
20:20:22 <ais523> tusho: yes, it may take me a while to find it though
20:21:07 <tusho> i'll probably write a generic "Expose a unix command via a webpage" thing.
20:21:11 <tusho> and put your adventure game up
20:21:16 <tusho> (like i did a while ago but less glitchy)_
20:21:18 <ais523> tusho: ah no, I found it
20:21:26 <ais523> I copied it to /home/ais523/esogame.c on Rutian
20:21:31 <ais523> you should be able to get it from there
20:21:41 <ais523> also note it's very unfinished atm and I haven't worked on it since you last saw it
20:22:34 <tusho> ais523: hmm...we need a filesharing system using scp, i run it far too much because you upload stuff there
20:22:41 <tusho> like, you could do 'rutian-give tusho file'
20:22:47 <tusho> and it'd upload it, notify me, and I could accept it
20:25:08 <tusho> ais523: well, I am going to write rutian-give and rutian-recieve-daemon
20:25:12 <tusho> i hope you are very excited.
20:25:30 <tusho> ais523: you can't host a server, can you?
20:25:36 * ais523 laughs at the typical tusho attitude
20:25:47 <ais523> AnMaster: a text adventure based on esolangs I started writing once
20:25:48 <tusho> what did i do that was typical of me
20:25:57 <ais523> tusho: go off into writing a new program idea
20:26:09 <ais523> AnMaster: so far it has three puzzle areas, based on brainfuck, INTERCAL, and SMETANA
20:26:11 <tusho> ais523: i don't see how that's unique to me :P
20:26:17 <ais523> and you have to solve the puzzle to get through the area
20:26:26 <ais523> tusho: I didn't say it was, probably other people have the same attitude
20:26:35 <tusho> ais523: am i right re: servers though
20:26:36 <ais523> unfortunately none of the puzzle areas go anywhere yet
20:26:47 <ais523> tusho: yes, I don't have an always-on computer
20:27:00 <ais523> when this computer is on I can reverse-tunnel to rutian and host a server that way
20:27:01 <tusho> it's for transferring when they're online
20:27:07 <tusho> won't that be hosted on, er, rutian though?
20:27:10 <ais523> but not host a server locally due to firewalls
20:27:19 <tusho> it needs to be able to notify you in some way
20:27:27 <ais523> tusho: rutian will be the IP you use to connect, the reverse-tunnel sends the data to my computer
20:27:33 <tusho> probably via one of those 'make dialog with shell script' progs
20:27:41 <ais523> remember when 127.0.0.1:12345 on your computer connected to Apache on mine?
20:27:44 <tusho> will that be able to tell your computer to run xdialog or whatever it is?
20:27:55 <ais523> tusho: yes if the right software's running over here
20:28:07 <tusho> so i just write it as if it's running on your machine
20:28:18 <ais523> and then I try to remember the syntax to set up a reverse tunnel
20:28:58 <tusho> its port shall be 19176 (ESO)
20:29:30 <tusho> ais523: you have ruby right
20:29:34 <tusho> ah, wait, it'll run on rutian
20:29:39 <ais523> tusho: probably, I've never tried running it though
20:29:46 <ais523> if I don't then I can get it easily enough
20:32:29 <tusho> ais523: is there a command that reads passwords securely like ssh does then dumps it to stdout that you know of?
20:33:00 <ais523> tusho: I think so, can't remember the syntax though, I'll look it up
20:35:14 <ais523> dialog --insecure --stdout --passwordbox Password: 8 80
20:35:22 <ais523> remove the --insecure if you don't even want it to echo asterisks
20:35:29 <ais523> it's a bit funky, though, dialog puts up a fake GUI
20:35:38 <ais523> it's what dpkg uses for prompts though
20:36:01 <ais523> maybe there's another way
20:36:06 <ais523> that's just the one I know offhand
20:37:01 <tusho> ais523: by the way, how do you think I should ask for confirmation of the transfer? i'm planning on using one of those "pop up a basic dialog in gtk/qt/cocoa/whatever"
20:37:11 <tusho> and then if it's accepted a save as
20:38:35 <ais523> tusho: incidentally, #gcc seems to be one of those channels where if you're lucky you might get an answer after 5 hours
20:38:53 <ais523> AnMaster: a program to input a string without echoing
20:38:55 <tusho> a program to let the user input a password securely
20:38:59 <fizzie> You can use something like "stty -echo; read; stty echo;", although it's a bit brittle and might too easily leave the terminal to a no-echoing mode.
20:39:03 <tusho> by the method ais523 said
20:39:33 <ais523> tusho: in bash: read -s; echo $REPLY
20:39:44 <ais523> that works for all passwords except -n
20:40:03 <ais523> read's a bash builtin, though, not a command accessible any other way
20:40:35 <tusho> ok, here's the model:
20:40:54 <tusho> scp-send server username file
20:41:01 <tusho> scp-send file username server
20:41:07 <tusho> 'scp-send foo.c tusho eso-std.org' reads best
20:41:11 <ais523> tusho: what about sending more than one file?
20:41:12 <tusho> then that asks for your password
20:41:15 <ais523> arguably the file list should come last
20:41:22 <tusho> ais523: well, mine couldn't support that anyone
20:41:26 <tusho> due to the save as thing
20:41:29 <ais523> also, why not just secure it the same way ssh does?
20:41:33 <ais523> if you can ssh there, you can scp-send there
20:41:51 <tusho> ais523: uh, and how do you propose i hook into just one bit of ssh?
20:41:56 <ais523> I wouldn't input a password into something like that unless it was unique
20:42:01 <tusho> as far as I know, Net::SCP requires you to give stuff yourself
20:42:05 <ais523> tusho: you don't, you try to ssh to verify it's possible
20:42:27 <tusho> net::scp might do it
20:43:20 <tusho> ais523: well, anyway
20:43:29 <tusho> then it looks at /home/VICTIM/.scp-transfer
20:43:36 <tusho> if it's not there, it chokes and dies
20:43:42 <tusho> if it's there, then it should be of the form 'host:port'
20:43:49 <tusho> then it makes a connection to that
20:43:54 <tusho> and says 'yo, i gotsa file for you here'
20:44:06 <tusho> (after scping the file over to /home/SENDER/.scp-transfers/)
20:44:19 <tusho> and if the other user accepts it, the reciever daemon just scps it to the directory they specify
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20:55:46 <AnMaster> I know there is some other ssh in python implementation
20:55:52 <AnMaster> that launchpad and others use for ssh
20:56:08 <AnMaster> no idea if that is helpful in this case or not
21:03:02 <tusho> /opt/local/lib/ruby/gems/1.8/gems/net-ssh-2.0.4/lib/net/ssh.rb:195:in `start': tusho (Net::SSH::AuthenticationFailed)
21:03:10 <tusho> so yea not sure how to make it prompt the console for that kind of stuff
21:03:53 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
21:04:13 <tusho> # :passphrase => the passphrase to use when loading a private key (default is nil, for no passphrase)
21:04:13 <tusho> # :password => the password to use to login
21:04:18 <tusho> I'll ask #ruby-lang.
21:04:23 <tusho> (They don't know that tusho==ehird. >:D)
21:04:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:06:24 <tusho> [[tusho, you can send a password as a parameter - no need for an interactive session]]
21:06:41 <tusho> I cannot wait for the day when people read
21:07:25 <tusho> Slereah: you crazy stalker of my about page
21:08:32 <Slereah> HOW DARE YOU READ MY WEBSITE
21:11:56 <tusho> (To be honest Slereah's stalking amounted to "adding me on MSN".)
21:12:12 <ais523> tusho: what, you use MSN? Heretic!
21:12:29 <tusho> ais523: Justification: everybody who uses a computer in the world and wants to talk to me who isn't in #esoteric
21:12:56 <ais523> tusho: teach them to use IRC, it's better than MSN for most things from what I know of MSN
21:13:06 <tusho> ais523: that would not happen
21:13:17 <tusho> besides, Adium does jabber and stuff too
21:13:21 <tusho> and makes all protocols look the same
21:13:21 <oerjan> i think my whole family is on MSN _except_ me
21:13:28 <tusho> so I could just pretend they use jabber
21:13:39 <ais523> MSN's just like IRC, except harder to use and has fewer features
21:13:47 <tusho> it's just like jabber
21:13:48 <ais523> and doesn't have channels either
21:13:52 <tusho> except easier to use and has fewer features
21:14:04 <tusho> (jabber is _not_ easy to use for a non-techie)
21:14:10 <tusho> (unless in the form of Google Talk)
21:14:26 <tusho> (but most people don't know about google talk's desktop client so don't use it apart from through gmail)
21:14:29 <ais523> tusho: not easier, I've lost count of how many times I've gone into a cybercafe and found someone else's instance MSN Messenger still running because they couldn't figure out how to exit it
21:14:41 <tusho> ais523: but generally people don't _need_ to exit it
21:14:42 <ais523> and then left it running because I couldn't figure out how to exit it either
21:14:50 <tusho> right click the tray icon. click exit
21:15:01 <ais523> tusho: this cybercafe doesn't have tray icons
21:15:13 <tusho> ais523: it's in the menus
21:15:20 <tusho> (To make the menus visible, click the little arrow on the title bar.)
21:15:24 <tusho> File->Exit, specifically.
21:15:49 <ais523> tusho: yes, I've done that before when I could get to the menus, half the time though it just hides in the nonexistent system tray and pops up messages from nowhere and I can't close its source
21:16:04 <tusho> click the message's body to pop up an msn window
21:16:06 <tusho> then exit from ther
21:16:19 <ais523> now why couldn't they make it simple and intuitive?
21:16:27 <tusho> ais523: they're idiots
21:16:41 <tusho> but anyway, for the stuff most people do with msn (Click a person, type a message, press enter) it's dead simple
21:16:47 <tusho> and therefore has huge market penetration
21:16:49 <tusho> and therefore everyone uses it
21:17:14 <ais523> strangely, IRC works almost the same way: double-click on "tusho" (it could be single-click in several clients), type the message, press enter
21:17:28 <tusho> ais523: no, irc works like this
21:17:38 <tusho> you open mIRC (Face it, the users of MSN will not use anything else)
21:17:52 <tusho> you go through the huge server list and pick one (<msn user> What has this got to do with talking to people?)
21:18:06 <tusho> a bunch of cryptic messages fly past and then a "JOIN CHANNNELLLL" box opens (<msn user> Channel? What? What is that list?)
21:18:24 <ais523> tusho: Konversation connects to irc.ubuntu.org by default
21:18:25 <tusho> then you type /query user (<msn user> /query? Wait, what is the user? Huh, I can't just click in a list?)
21:18:31 <ais523> and you need to actively change it to go elswehere
21:18:32 <tusho> then you type and hit enter
21:18:39 <ais523> and you can easily create a list of people to click on
21:18:42 <tusho> You can't have fancy nicknames with spaces. No colours. No fonts.
21:18:47 <tusho> MSN users _like_ them, as annoying as they aer.
21:19:07 <tusho> Just like how myspace users like customizing their profiles to look god-awful. It's a matter of identity.
21:19:20 <tusho> Slereah: here, have a hug *hugs*
21:19:26 <tusho> ais523: konversation?
21:19:30 <tusho> you are expecting msn users to be using linux?
21:19:53 <ais523> tusho: well, no, I'll just wait for KDE to become mainstream on Windows
21:19:54 <tusho> i don't think you're quite in tune with the technical ability & rabid familiarity-seeking of most people
21:20:05 <tusho> ais523: which will never happen
21:20:15 <ais523> should happen any day now, I reckon, given how bad the default Windows apps are (what default Windows apps...)
21:20:26 <tusho> and moreover, downloading a huge kde install and installing all that and setting it up and aaaaaaaaaa vs downloading one file and hitting 'next'...
21:20:51 <ais523> tusho: it would make more sense for computer manufacturers to preinstall some useful programs, after all all non-Windows OSes do
21:21:01 <tusho> ais523: we are talking in the realm of reality here
21:21:06 <tusho> "teach them to use IRC": not happening
21:21:15 <ais523> tusho: who teaches them to use MSN, though?
21:21:28 <ais523> at least I figured out how to use IRC by myself...
21:21:30 <tusho> they click 'download'. They press next a few times. A window pops up.
21:21:34 <tusho> They enter their username, and their password.
21:21:36 <tusho> They click sign in
21:21:43 <tusho> Then they can click a persons name and type back and forth.
21:21:52 <ais523> (and that was very easy, I just clicked on a link to an IRC channel on Esolang the first time, and it opened up in Chatzilla)
21:21:57 <tusho> If they happen to click the thing labeled 'Font' (Of course they will, all their friends have fancy fonts) they can set it like Word.
21:22:07 <ais523> it asked for a username (not even a password), and I was connected
21:22:12 <tusho> Oh, and MSN auto-remembers passwords.
21:22:16 <tusho> and auto-starts at startup
21:22:25 <tusho> So from then on, the process is 1. Click a person's name 2. Type back and forth
21:23:00 <ais523> so in other words my discovery seemed easier, although it did rather rely on the Mozilla suite coincidentally being installed on that computer (N.B. this is pre-Firefox, it was just Mozilla back then)
21:23:08 <ais523> your process sounds very complicated compared to mine
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21:23:26 <tusho> ais523: i really, really don't think you will ever be able to comprehend how the mind of a regular computer user works
21:23:55 <ais523> but there isn't anything much simpler than clicking on a link and it Just Working
21:24:04 <tusho> so i'll just tell you the results of being in their shoes (having intimately known their computer habits by one being one and by seeing them in action): IRC or Jabber will never, ever be as easy for them as using MSN
21:24:06 <ais523> regular computer users jump through many more hoops than that
21:24:47 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers5/1220903957499.jpg
21:25:03 <tusho> His nose will grow now.
21:26:33 <oerjan> his legs will shrink. if i remember correctly from the original story.
21:27:17 <oerjan> (The fairy said there were two kinds of lies, those with short legs and those with long noses)
21:27:49 <Slereah> Are self referential paradox short legged?
21:33:25 <tusho> ndamnit oerjan you broke the chainight
21:34:07 <oerjan> i didn't want to imply that i was leaving yet
21:34:41 <tusho> but i was saying night to AnMaster
21:35:42 <lament> what happens if you say "My nose is not getting shorter?"
21:37:32 <tusho> oh wow, I just got that image
21:44:18 <tusho> ais523: is ssh even needed?
21:44:26 <tusho> couldn't it just telnet to me directly
21:44:28 <ais523> tusho: depends on what you're trying to do
21:44:32 <tusho> and have a hardcoded list of people:ip
21:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | three bytes to form one rgb?.
21:46:09 <tusho> ais523: just the transfer thing
21:46:31 <ais523> oh and hi fungot, optbot
21:46:32 <fungot> ais523: ( ok), then i say ' gets the current stack
21:48:31 <tusho> that'd be an interesting befunge extension
21:48:36 <tusho> (or whatever other stack language)
21:48:41 <tusho> add first class stacks, then '
21:48:45 <tusho> which pushes the stack to the stack
21:48:50 <tusho> (The stack pre-push, obviously)
21:49:05 <tusho> (Or not pre-push: Make it update with the stack)
21:50:05 * oerjan suddenly wonders: can "first class" be first class?
21:50:26 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I hope it does
21:51:12 <tusho> ais523: that's what I think about most things in #esoteric...
21:52:12 <tusho> i think we might be the friendliest programming channel there is
21:52:31 <tusho> i've seen a few rows in #haskell, just minor though
21:52:47 <ais523> there have been rows here too, but none of them have been on-topic
21:52:55 <tusho> the only rows we have are between well-established users
21:52:59 <tusho> (mostly, one of them is me)
21:53:52 <tusho> and generally they're consistent
21:54:00 <tusho> i mainly argue with psygnisfive and AnMaster
21:54:05 <tusho> I mainly row with them
21:54:13 <tusho> i argue with ais523, but not in the same way
21:55:23 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe try being nice for once?
21:55:42 <tusho> AnMaster: i could say the same for you with how you act in the arguments
21:55:49 <tusho> besides, i am nice most of the time
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22:12:59 <LinuS> have you succeded in killing melap yet?
22:13:29 <LinuS> btw, had an idea for another eso lang.. doubleCheck(), basically you have to write every instruction, function parameters, etc
22:14:57 <LinuS> yeah, the guy you always complain about, the one on the wiki
22:15:05 <LinuS> i may not speak a lot, but i sometimes read
22:15:21 <tusho> i've only complained about him since yesterday
22:15:36 <tusho> i had a laugh at his sprawling, huge user subpages beforehand
22:15:37 <tusho> but that was ages ago
22:19:24 <ais523> [22:18] <leogorerd> eh, I really don't like esoteric languages
22:19:24 <ais523> [22:18] <leogorerd> they tend to be annoying and can be done easier with other languages
22:19:43 <tusho> ais523: where is that from
22:19:59 <ais523> #nethack, somehow the conversation there got round to INTERCAL
22:21:33 <oerjan> with all the strange features coming into INTERCAL there'll just have to be some killer app it ends up being really good at
22:21:44 <ais523> oerjan: bit-reversal is one well-known one
22:21:51 <tusho> ais523: i don't seem to have convinced him
22:21:53 <ais523> it's slightly shorter in INTERCAL than in C
22:22:03 <ais523> and that's INTERCAL-72, no funky features needed
22:22:19 <tusho> "yeah, I was thinking of possibly designing something for my senior design project next year, but then I used brainfuck and changed my mind"
22:22:22 <tusho> is that meant to make sense?
22:22:34 <ais523> as for modern INTERCAL, I went and wrote a continuation library in it in 24 hours, despite continuations not being part of the language, that should give you some clue as to its power
22:23:10 <ais523> tusho: I think so, it looks like something that makes sens but is out of context
22:23:24 <tusho> ais523: i wonder if he realises what channel he is in
22:23:53 <ais523> tusho: arrgh, the last few comments make me want to make nethack into an esolang now
22:24:02 <ais523> you know, set up a level so that the AI does computation
22:24:19 <ais523> tusho: I need to figure out how first
22:24:27 <ais523> I used to do that sort of conversion all the time
22:24:36 <ais523> normally I implemented noughts-and-crosses, then stopped
22:24:39 <ais523> because it's pretty easy
22:25:41 <tusho> a combination of ._., ;_; and o_O
22:25:49 <ais523> tusho: the floor, then an altar, then a shark or other water creature?
22:26:22 <tusho> ais523: it's a face
22:26:35 <tusho> o_O, but with the ._. eyes and the ;_; tears
22:26:36 <ais523> tusho: nethack strikes me as being a great example program to get working on gcc-bf
22:26:43 <tusho> ais523: doesn't it use ncurses or some shit
22:26:45 <ais523> you'd just need an unbuffering interpreter
22:26:48 <ais523> tusho: translate ncurses too
22:26:56 <tusho> ais523: doesn't it use ioctl
22:26:57 <tusho> and stuff like tht
22:26:59 <ais523> it's just outputting and inputting characters, of course
22:27:04 <ais523> and no, it uses termcap
22:27:11 <ais523> which just consults files to determine what to output
22:27:19 <tusho> how can it consult a file
22:27:25 <ais523> tusho: I have a filesystem implemented
22:27:50 <ais523> that's at the ABI level, I can't translate it to brainfuck /yet/...
22:28:11 <ais523> ABI's designed to be pretty easy to translate though, I just need to get round to writing idioms
22:28:29 <ais523> and figuring out how to sensibly multiply and divide 64-bit numbers in 8-bit brainfuck
22:30:20 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:33:00 <tusho> that channel is weird.
22:38:54 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi.").
22:40:09 <ais523> [22:00] --> raylu has joined this channel (i=raylu@128.237.96.181).
22:40:09 <ais523> [22:39] <raylu> I will /part.
22:40:09 <ais523> [22:39] <-- raylu has left this channel.
22:41:21 <oerjan> self-referential IRP, it's the future!
22:41:56 <tusho> I part the channel
22:42:12 <ais523> tusho: by the way, my filesystem is very simple: it allows all characters but NUL in filenames, but has no directories or permissions or anything like that
22:42:20 <tusho> ais523: why no NUL
22:42:54 <ais523> tusho: end-of-string in C
22:43:08 <ais523> no way to pass strings containing NUL to fopen and suchlike
22:43:18 <tusho> ais523: when you do add directories
22:43:20 <ais523> so no point in supporting them as there'd be no way to use them
22:43:20 <tusho> add ESCAPE CHARACTERS
22:43:23 <tusho> so you can have / in filenames
22:43:33 <tusho> say you have a project called In/Out
22:43:38 <ais523> tusho: you are possibly overthinking this...
22:43:47 <tusho> In\\/Out/foo <-- foo from Out from In\
22:43:52 <tusho> it would be AWESOME
22:44:20 <ais523> the only purpose of this is to keep C's standard library things like fopen happy, and to keep programs which expect a filesystem happy
22:44:31 <ais523> I'm aiming for portability to as many C programs as possible, which is why int is 32 bits
22:44:32 <tusho> ais523: um, tons of things use directories
22:44:42 <tusho> so when you do implement them, add my awesome.
22:44:46 <ais523> tusho: yes, unfortunately, most programs can live without them though I think
22:44:55 <tusho> not useful ones, at least
22:44:59 <tusho> opendir is incredibly common
22:45:30 <ais523> tusho: I don't think nethack uses it
22:45:37 <ais523> nor does C-INTERCAL, although it needs files to exist
22:46:00 <tusho> i could go on but those are some obvious ones
22:46:02 <ais523> tusho: I think it would be easy enough to port vi to a directoriless file system
22:46:06 <tusho> (well, vi just checks for directoriness)
22:46:14 <ais523> and I was talking about programs that don't need a filesystem really
22:46:24 <tusho> ais523: you should aim for the top
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22:46:30 <ais523> nothing about it apart from the save intrinsically needs a filesystem
22:46:43 <ais523> and if we're going that root I may as well just port Linux and have done with it
22:47:12 <tusho> make the kernel compile with gcc-bf
22:47:19 <ais523> tusho: a few things at a time
22:47:33 <ais523> I haven't even written any of the assembler apart from loading constants into memory yet...
22:47:53 <ais523> (by the way I thought of trying to put constant strings into code rather than tape, but it turned out to be more trouble than it was worth)
22:53:19 <tusho> 666666666666666315
22:53:53 <tusho> 121212121212121212121245
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22:56:53 <tusho> http://www.webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/
22:57:15 <ais523> ah, an explanation of why all browsers claim to be Mozilla?
22:57:47 <tusho> all browsers claim to be everything these days :P
22:59:12 <ais523> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/525.13 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/0.2.149.27 Safari/525.13
22:59:42 <ais523> so what is it based on? WebKit? But not the Apple version?
22:59:54 <tusho> but they wrote their own drawing layer
23:00:02 <tusho> as the one safari/win uses uses internal apple apis
23:00:04 <tusho> and is closed source
23:00:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:00:56 <ais523> tusho: I just bookmarked that web page, well done
23:18:26 -!- ais523 has quit ("9").
23:36:39 <Slereah> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
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03:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD4OnHCRd_4.
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03:57:44 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | THE LAST DIGIT OF PI IS 3 (in base reverse-10).
03:58:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it's enterprisey.
03:58:27 <Figs> Does it do something every time you say "optbot!"?
03:58:28 <optbot> Figs: I certainly agree with that :P
03:58:55 <Figs> optbot, you're creepy.
03:58:55 <optbot> Figs: putting arbitrary numbers on the stack isn't easy eh?
03:58:57 <GregorR> I'm going to rape optbot to death.
03:58:58 <optbot> GregorR: i want to define 3-5 ports and then have the rest implementation defined
03:59:16 <GregorR> I'll "define" your "ports", optbot.
03:59:17 <optbot> GregorR: Oh. Your friend there.
04:03:08 <Figs> are any of you knowledgeable with x86 asm?
04:03:28 <optbot> CO2Games: I wonder whether PowerPC would fit that criterion.
04:03:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | still 4th here.
04:03:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | DEFMACRO is the only way to do some stuff.
04:08:01 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | for at least *one* of the new operators.
04:08:18 <Figs> Optbot, do you know anything about x86 programming?
04:08:19 <optbot> Figs: Just changed stack to tape and operation to symbol
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05:19:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !lazyk.
05:19:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | with exceptions, special cases, hard to evolve and so on..
05:19:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not sure why clear works now.
05:19:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it's written by a complete nutjob. A crazy person. Somebody who is not sane. Just like people who come up with alternative tunings..
05:20:15 <optbot> CO2Games: 99.999% of IRC servers ignore what the hostname is and just go with it.
05:20:44 <optbot> CO2Games: http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/psox.txt
05:26:11 <Sgeo> That's an old version of PSOX, which is currently dead.
05:26:18 <Sgeo> *of the PSOX spec
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09:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ok.
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12:22:30 <tusho> this place only has 21 members?
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12:54:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | axo2i has exited due to signal 11 (SIGSEGV)..
12:56:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I was ignoring you..
12:56:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://www.explosm.net/comics/644/.
12:56:50 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so don't store them as 32-bit..
12:56:54 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm.
12:56:57 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | alright.
12:56:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it's 'adding' to the output, but it's in the console, so it's "boxed in" because you can't see it directly from the program?.
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13:36:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | F!34,.
13:36:43 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | =39.
13:36:46 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that syntax is odd. ;P.
13:36:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ...that won't be a good test.
13:36:53 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it's been fun.
13:37:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | of course, the literal parser, which takes some string and tries to chomp it off the beginning of the string you're trying to parse..
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13:52:36 <tusho> oklobol: is that your topic
15:16:05 <CO2Games> Wow, assembly is easier than it looks
15:16:35 <Slereah> Well, compared to Brainfuck, it's a breeze :D
15:16:47 <Slereah> it has arithemtic operations and all!
15:17:31 <Slereah> Random access memory and flow control!
15:17:54 <Slereah> When I first read the description of Assembly, I was actually surprised
15:18:03 <Slereah> I was expecting something much more primitive
15:19:09 <Slereah> come on, it has numbers! D:
15:20:28 <CO2Games> Hell, drainfuck has words instead of bytes
15:20:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | .......................where?...... i don't wanna know.
15:27:15 <CO2Games> So I could make a brainfuck -> assembly translator and use a simple assembler to make it a brainfuck compiler?
15:28:34 <Slereah> There's plenty of BF compilers around
15:44:43 <tusho> CO2Games: optbot just quotes a random log line when you talk to it
15:45:32 <optbot> Slereah: that would be fantastic
15:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | if you look at them with a debugger, though, they often look middle-endian.
15:49:41 <Slereah> Optbot, solve the halting problem
15:50:08 <optbot> tusho: right, MiniMAX.
15:50:14 <tusho> optbot: MiniMAX solves the halting problem?
15:50:20 <tusho> optbot: Aggh! I lost it! Fuck you.
15:50:21 <optbot> tusho: pretty picture tho
15:50:29 <tusho> optbot: Yeah, MiniMAX solving the halting problem WOULD be nice.
15:50:29 <optbot> tusho: actually take http://rafb.net/p/o2X0l033.html, the ASCII art had an error
15:50:34 <tusho> optbot: That's a 404.
15:50:35 <optbot> tusho: you can implement the Churches in types
15:50:41 <tusho> optbot: Yes, I knew that... back to the topic?
15:56:39 <optbot> Slereah: smetana can do that
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16:04:55 <Slereah> Are the sentences totally random?
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16:51:19 <ais523> tusho: say something you've never said before
16:51:23 <ais523> I want to check that this Internet connection is genuine and I'm not just getting cached stuff
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16:51:43 <ais523> beh, must be a caching effect after all...
16:52:06 <Slereah> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
16:52:16 <ais523> Slereah: have you said that before?
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16:52:39 <CO2Games> I'm considering replacing my drainfuck cache system with a stack
16:53:08 <Slereah> HELLO PEOPLE, I AM NEW ON THIS CHANNEL
16:53:12 <CO2Games> Like a stack of data so you don't interfere with other stack values
16:53:19 <Slereah> I think you're getting old stuff
16:53:30 <tusho> Meanwhile, I have blogged about nazi dinosaurs. http://tusho.net/blog/
16:54:01 <CO2Games> ^ uploads to the cache, and V downloads from it
16:54:52 <Slereah> Around stacks, never relax.
16:55:06 <ais523> Slereah: clearly you've never seen Underload, then
16:55:32 <CO2Games> You see, I could have a stack as a replacement for the cache.
16:56:31 <tusho> Also meanwhile, I am working on StoryGen v2.
16:56:54 <tusho> For the unwashed masses: The premise is this:
16:56:59 <tusho> * You see the latest fragment of the current story, and only the latest.
16:57:01 <tusho> * You can submit a new fragment, which then becomes the latest.
16:57:04 <tusho> * After 25 fragments, the story is finished, all the fragments are put next to each other, the story is moved to the archive, and a new one begins.
16:57:08 <CO2Games> Well hmm...then again there is the & jump that uses the cache
16:57:40 <CO2Games> I could make use of * for something
17:00:10 <CO2Games> I already have the cache and it's already implemented in the jump command
17:00:39 <tusho> CO2Games: why are you so afraid of deleting code
17:00:48 <tusho> it's like "oh but I already wrote this bug, I can't remove it"
17:00:50 <CO2Games> I don't want to lose backwards compatibility
17:01:00 <tusho> tell me, how many drainfuck programs are there?
17:01:08 <tusho> how many not written by you>?
17:01:21 <tusho> then you can revise it as you wish.
17:01:28 <CO2Games> But the original implementation should still remain
17:02:03 <tusho> You evidently have decided that it's bad.
17:02:48 <tusho> what is the point of keeping something bad for no reason
17:02:51 <CO2Games> I don't want to be the guy who removes obsolete support and yet complains about no 5.25" floppy support in xp
17:03:07 <tusho> enjoy your bloated as hell code, I guess.
17:03:23 <tusho> I doubt even ais523 would complain about lack of 5.25" floppy support, though.
17:03:49 <CO2Games> I have a 5.25" working perfectly fine on my dos machine
17:04:04 <tusho> pasting this from another channel since it's funny (about the LHC going off):
17:04:05 <tusho> <tusho> particle -> <- particle
17:04:05 <tusho> <tusho> particle -> <- particle
17:04:05 <tusho> <tusho> particle -><- particle
17:04:05 <tusho> <tusho> <- nazi riding dinosaur wielding laser gun ->
17:05:01 <CO2Games> Well perhaps I could have a command to switch between the stack and cache for the ^ and V commands
17:05:24 <tusho> CO2Games: jesus christ
17:05:32 <tusho> you've already decided the cache is inferior to the stack
17:05:36 <tusho> so just TRASH THE CACHE
17:05:50 <oklobol> when are we gonna die, tusho?
17:06:04 <oklobol> wasn't it somewhere around here?
17:06:05 <tusho> oklobol: after the nazis riding dinosaurs while wielding laser guns kill us all
17:06:15 <CO2Games> The stack isn't fully compatible with the cache
17:06:23 <tusho> oklobol: your mom o clock
17:06:27 <Slereah> The LHC is gonna destroy the universe, dontcha know
17:06:43 <CO2Games> I want to keep backwards compatibility
17:07:13 <Slereah> Will there be Brainfuck in heaven?
17:07:21 <Slereah> Or will we be damned to the Malbolge?
17:07:41 <CO2Games> The cool thing about brainfuck is you can write it in class and the teacher will be like "wtfh"
17:08:04 <Slereah> In what class can you write about it?
17:08:40 <CO2Games> Just write it down while the teacher blabbers on about how john mccain aided in the revolutionary war
17:09:34 <CO2Games> His social security number is 8. He infact said that himself
17:09:52 <Slereah> Who was 1, the founder of the social security?
17:11:17 <tusho> CO2Games: no it isn't
17:11:32 <CO2Games> But he did say it none-the-less.
17:11:54 <CO2Games> The Tonight Show with Jay Leno
17:12:54 <Slereah> Was it the real McCain, or just a corpse dressed like him?
17:13:14 <tusho> Slereah: What is the difference.
17:13:16 <CO2Games> He walked in and sat down and talked and shit
17:13:24 <Slereah> One of them can get legally elected
17:13:56 <Slereah> One of them is a disfigured goulish figure, and one of them is a corpse
17:15:22 <CO2Games> I should have a command that switches the cache into stack mode
17:18:52 <tusho> Does it run anything yet?
17:18:53 <CO2Games> Yay I'm working on a $ command now.
17:19:02 <ais523> I have a version of the compiler which in theory could be final but which probably will need tweaking at some point
17:19:25 <ais523> also the library's finished but not tested, the linker's potentially finished
17:19:34 <ais523> so all I have left is the assembler, and I've started on that
17:19:55 <ais523> at the moment I'm working on something that breaks the asm down into smaller chunks, a bit like gimplification but different
17:20:54 <ais523> tusho: btw, the topic quote, was that me?
17:20:57 <ais523> it sounds like it could have been
17:21:09 <tusho> ais523: also, you used to capitalize and talk a bit like fizzie
17:21:14 <tusho> I grepped for your first appearence
17:21:17 <ais523> I can capitalise sometimes
17:21:42 <ais523> I do normally end up capitalising in environments where everyone else does, it's just that this isn't one of those environments
17:21:55 <tusho> Ah. I'll fix that, then.
17:22:05 <tusho> Because you talked weird back then.
17:22:17 <tusho> So I'm having cognitive dissonance with the ais2007 and the aisnow.
17:22:25 <tusho> So I am talking like this to make you talk like this to rectify the situation.
17:29:42 <tusho> <ais523> oh dear, what is it?
17:29:47 <Mony> optbot, idea !
17:29:58 <ais523> tusho: accurate quote...
17:30:12 <ais523> or at least plausible quote
17:31:15 <tusho> ais523: it's a javascript library that offers a bridge to flash. that is, you can do ActionScript.eval("foo") and similar. advantages? you can plug into the fancy stuff flash can do: e.g. access webcam and microphone via Webcam and Microphone classes, which would just be written in js using the bridge
17:31:18 <tusho> it would be rather nifty.
17:31:36 <tusho> e.g. all in JS, you could get images from the camera, and then use them in a <canvas>
17:31:40 <tusho> without having to mess around with flash yourself
17:33:22 * tusho thinks of countless silly toys he coudl make with that
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18:04:30 <CO2Games> tusho, I've come up with a solution :D
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18:54:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | And implementation of such.
18:54:52 <Slereah> optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot optbot
18:54:58 <oerjan> optbot: you're implemented? i'd never have guessed
18:54:58 <optbot> oerjan: that you can compose to make full lambdas
18:55:18 <Slereah> Make me some full lambdas.
18:55:20 -!- CO2Games has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Can't touch this!.
18:55:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | And I also covered a bug that would allow you to say something like:.
18:57:00 <oerjan> at least it uses constant space, if you're lucky
18:58:33 <oerjan> it can collect extra i's if unoptimized
18:58:53 <Slereah> It's not called lazy for nothing boy
18:59:54 <CO2Games> They just said 'olol i tink it lazy oo a word wut i doo wif it?'
19:01:41 <oerjan> in any case, they're never strict about it
19:01:52 <oerjan> (3 points for understanding the pun)
19:03:23 <oerjan> then why the dour face?
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19:28:51 <ais523> * the topic kills ais523 with suspense
19:32:44 * oerjan kills ais523 with suspenders
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19:39:04 <oerjan> no worries, it's easy to get carried away when you're killed
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20:08:46 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Habari&redirect=no The proposer just tried to get it deleted because it's non-notable (seems like he's a rabid deletionist.)
20:08:57 <tusho> Now he's mr sarcasm, apparently.
20:09:18 <ais523> tusho: there was a serious attempt to AfD the main page featured article for non-notability once
20:09:28 <ais523> I think they delayed the start of the AfD a day to avoid an AfD tag on TFA
20:09:38 <tusho> I was just pointing out the rabid violation of WP:Point.
20:11:15 <tusho> Now someone needs to MfD user:misterdiscreet for nonnotablity
20:12:41 <ais523> tusho: WP:N only applies to mainspace, at least I hope it still does
20:12:55 * ais523 wistfully remembers when WP:N was only an "essay" and many users disagreed with it
20:22:09 <oerjan> well the feature request was deleted
20:22:19 <ais523> which feature request?
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20:25:21 <tusho> * 19:16, 9 September 2008 Karanacs (Talk | contribs) deleted "Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Habari" (G6: Housekeeping and routine (non-controversial) cleanup: bad-faith FAC nomination)
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20:47:18 <tusho> ais523 ais523 ais523 ais523 ais523 ais523 ais523 ais523 ais523
20:47:34 <ais523> ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
20:47:43 <ais523> and I am trying for that half a BAF
20:48:29 <ais523> ah, a whole BAF, even better
20:49:39 <ais523> tusho: your pledge says a whole BAF
20:49:50 <ais523> unless "increment" means something other than +1 nowadays
20:50:47 <Slereah> Is the opposite of increment excrement?
20:51:27 <Slereah> Let's make a language with an excrement function.
20:53:38 <oerjan> it had to come to this, hadn't it
20:54:06 <tusho> by the way, I am reviving storygen
20:54:13 <tusho> i already said that
20:54:25 <ais523> tusho: you seem to be saying xD a lot more than usual lately
20:54:37 <tusho> ais523: indeed, also :^)
20:54:44 <tusho> I generally end up using one and deciding I like it
20:54:48 <tusho> and thus using it more before forgetting
20:54:53 <ais523> oerjan: it's a measurement of favours tusho invented
20:54:58 <tusho> Big Agoran Favours
20:55:08 <tusho> one Big Agoran Favour could be, e.g. my participation in a scam
20:55:16 <oerjan> oh dear. and is it legislated too?
20:55:16 <tusho> or transferring a moderate amount of assets
20:55:34 <tusho> in fact, no agora forum has ever seen a definition of "BAF" posted, though ##nomic has
20:55:47 <tusho> but anyway, everyone has their own personal stash of (person,baf-count)
20:56:03 <tusho> so "You have N BAFs" means "You have N BAFs in my personal stash of BAFs"
20:56:12 <tusho> also, the values for mine are fuzzy
20:56:16 <tusho> i.e., not actually written down anywhere
20:57:09 <oerjan> and B is the only prefix used?
20:57:24 <ais523> tusho: we need Medium-sized Agoran Favours, now!
20:57:24 <tusho> i just invented them one day
20:57:26 <oerjan> clearly there is room for expansion there
20:57:33 <tusho> ais523: 1 MAF = 0.5 BAF
20:58:17 <tusho> Slereah: Kick-ass Agoran Favour?
20:58:28 <tusho> I prefer kick-ass.
20:58:31 <oerjan> um that's backwards from SI
20:59:01 <ais523> oerjan: you could use D&D size classes, Fine/Tiny/Small/Medium/Large/Huge/Gargantuan/Colossal
20:59:08 <ais523> each of which is approximately twice as large as the one before
20:59:30 <Slereah> What's the value of a favor in USD?
20:59:43 <oerjan> oh that's almost what we had
20:59:54 <oerjan> except big instead of Large
21:00:19 <Slereah> If each one is twice the previous
21:00:28 <Slereah> Should we use the kibi thing?
21:00:51 <oerjan> no, that's 1024 which despite common factors is rather different from 2
21:01:20 <ais523> nonsense, they only differ by 2 on an 8-bit system
21:01:25 <ais523> and are identical on a 1-bit system
21:01:55 <Slereah> But it is the double of 512
21:02:01 <Slereah> Which is the double of ...
21:02:07 <oerjan> maybe binary is too vanilla for this
21:07:19 <tusho> Slereah: 1 BAF = $1
21:07:29 <tusho> depends how much you value agora
21:07:35 <tusho> I guess more like 75c
21:07:47 <tusho> 1 BAF = 75c seems about right to me
21:07:50 <tusho> ais523: your thoughts?
21:08:14 <ais523> tusho: it's not worth trying to come up with a mapping
21:08:48 <oerjan> clearly the dollar is far too unstable
21:09:01 <ais523> because I haven't slept for well over 24 hours now, and the value of nomic assets is traditionally very volatile
21:09:30 <tusho> ais523: still - agora as it currently is, what would you say?
21:09:38 <tusho> I mean, pretending that you would actually exchange money for it.
21:09:46 <tusho> I'd say 75c=1BAF is about right
21:09:47 <ais523> I wouldn't risk such an exchange in either direction, probably
21:09:58 <pikhq> And please, keep in mind that Agoran currency is considered *stable* for a nomic.
21:09:59 <ais523> unless it was some ridiculously favourable exchange rate
21:10:14 <ais523> pikhq: yes, just see what happened to the value of the B Nomic mack for instance
21:10:28 <tusho> ais523: we're in hypothetical land here
21:10:32 <tusho> nevermind that you wouldn't ;)
21:10:34 <pikhq> I'm going to guess that it had hyperinflation.
21:10:43 <tusho> ais523 did a join scam
21:10:49 <tusho> he could specify some ratification guys
21:10:54 <tusho> to award them for referring him to the game
21:11:01 <tusho> so he made 1 billion registration requests
21:11:04 <tusho> specifying the same people each time
21:11:09 <tusho> (you can say repeat N times in B)
21:11:16 <ais523> s/ratification/referral/
21:11:16 <tusho> so they each got 1 billion mack, iirc
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21:11:21 <tusho> ais523: sorry, thinko
21:12:22 <ais523> they passed a proposal to reduce everyone's mack total to no more than m1000, but not before Wooble had used his massive stash of mack to buy up every available asset in the game
21:12:25 <ais523> e still owns them AFAICT
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21:23:57 <tusho> ais523: what is the default ii
21:24:09 <ais523> tusho: 1, and wrong channel
21:24:15 <tusho> yes but all the previous was wrong channel
21:24:57 <tusho> Tue Sep 9 13:24:24 2008 - agora-propose.cgi: ehird added proposal /var/www/sites/nomic.info/perlnomic/agora-proposals/undistributed.1 to the pool.
21:25:06 <ais523> tusho: you can hardly expect me to interpret acronyms in the wrong case in the wrong channel after having had what feels like negative hours of sleep and being forced to help someone buy a computer than runs Vista earlier
21:25:10 <ais523> tusho: did you tell Agora about it
21:25:28 <tusho> ais523: goethe proposed it
21:25:43 <ais523> luckily, they wanted to install Linux alongside and use only that to access the Internet, the Vista bit was just to fulfil the letter of a contract
21:26:03 <tusho> ais523: what did the contract say?
21:26:25 <ais523> you had to meet the minimum system requirements, and they only listed windows XP and Vista as operating systems that met the minimum system requirements
21:27:06 <tusho> ais523: there are still shops selling xp pcs
21:27:17 <ais523> tusho: I don't think so, they'd have to have spare licences left over
21:27:37 <ais523> Microsoft don't sell XP licences any more to resale, although some people stockpiled them when the announcement came through for obvious reasons
21:27:57 <ais523> besides, I got weird looks talking about how much I like UAC
21:28:07 <tusho> uac is a good principle, terrible implementation
21:28:32 <ais523> they stole the principle from Linux or from OS X, not sure which came up with it first
21:28:43 <ais523> or whether the idea of a GUI sudo comes from something older like UNIX
21:29:02 <tusho> There seems to be something called xsudo.
21:29:05 <tusho> That sounds nice and archaic and old.
21:29:15 <ais523> yes, its name even starts with x
21:29:21 <tusho> that was my indicator
21:29:25 <tusho> ais523: ever tried xedit?
21:29:28 <tusho> it's quite odd, but easy to use
21:29:32 <tusho> even if it is featureless
21:29:35 <ais523> is it like graphical nano?
21:29:44 <tusho> and no keyboard shortcuts
21:29:50 <ais523> does it have more features than cat?
21:30:12 <tusho> i wil take a screenshot
21:32:17 <tusho> ais523: yo. accept that
21:32:33 * ais523 tries to figure out how
21:32:53 <ais523> /dcc, followed by clicking on "accept" in the GUI
21:33:16 <ais523> probably there's an entirely command-based way, but that was fast enough to figure out
21:33:35 <ais523> tusho: reminds me of Notepad
21:33:45 <tusho> notepad has more features
21:33:48 <ais523> probably the same idea, get a text area and stick it in a window and call it an editor
21:33:58 <tusho> ais523: but this has search & reverse search!
21:34:03 <tusho> non-modal search too, if you look
21:34:15 <tusho> it can load and save files without a dialog, too
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21:34:42 <ais523> tusho: so can notepad, it can load files from the command line and save them with control-S
21:34:52 <tusho> ais523: what about save as
21:34:56 <tusho> you can do that non-modally with xedit
21:34:57 <ais523> and I think notepad's search is non-modal nowadays
21:35:06 <ais523> tusho: ...non-modal Save As?
21:35:17 <tusho> ais523: yes - just change the filename at the top and hit save
21:35:27 <ais523> the only other editor I know which can do that is Emacs, and I've never done that deliberately
21:35:56 <ais523> (you can press C-x w for save-as, then C-x o and go back to editing your document with the save as prompt still open, then save your document as some time later)
21:36:31 <tusho> http://www.google-analytics.com/ga.js google should participate in the IOCC
21:37:04 <tusho> International obfuscated javascript contest c?
21:37:18 <ais523> International obfuscated ecmascript coding contest, obviously
21:37:36 <ais523> anyway it just looks like minified JS
21:37:46 <tusho> ais523: ECMAScript does not start with J
21:38:00 <ais523> yes it does, obviously, for instance .js is the file extensoin
21:38:11 <tusho> file extension != language name
21:38:24 <tusho> ais523: objective-c = .m
21:38:30 <ais523> tusho: wrong, for instance that's why OpenXML abbreviates to .docx
21:38:43 <Slereah> .m totally makes me think of the word objective-c
21:38:46 <tusho> is objective-c now called M?
21:38:53 <tusho> Slereah: it's for iMplementation or something
21:39:44 <ais523> also, programs written in Compiler Language With No Pronouncable Acronym normally have the extension .i
21:40:11 <Slereah> But it does make me think of INTERCAL :o
21:40:42 <Slereah> The file extension for my Turing machine would be .lm9
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21:43:02 <ais523> at the other extreme, MicroSoft WIndows Movie Maker files end .MSWMM (in allcaps), which most of my family (including me) think is almost as stupid as the application itself
21:43:26 <tusho> file extensions are a historical relic anyway
21:43:36 <tusho> from the days when filenames could only be so long and "metadata" was a buzzword
21:43:38 <ais523> as long as they aren't too long
21:43:53 <tusho> 8.3 kinda breaks down when you want to do useful stuff
21:44:05 <tusho> say you make a movie called Godzilla Murders Everyone in a Fashionable Way
21:44:09 <ais523> (and for people who say that file systems shouldn't restrict filenames, I tend to name things 8.3 anyway to speed up typing)
21:44:18 <tusho> gmeiafw.mve isn't very helpful
21:44:29 <tusho> Godzilla Murders Everyone in a Fashionable Way.movie is.
21:44:31 <ais523> try typing your filename into a command prompt, without tab complete
21:44:42 <tusho> ais523: command lines without tab complete are also a relic :)
21:45:08 <ais523> tusho: 8.3 names also reduce the number of characters you need to type to disambiguate the tab-complete, on average
21:45:12 <ais523> although that's a bit of a small effect
21:45:21 <ais523> and yes I do often end up using a computer one-handed
21:45:31 <tusho> the whole method of entering filenames that way is a historical relic :D
21:45:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | or something like that.
21:45:37 <ais523> it's a pain to press ctrl-alt-del that way though
21:45:53 <tusho> speaking of which, did you know: The writer of Worse is Better disagrees with it?
21:45:56 <ais523> (n.b. it's the logout keychord here on Ubuntu)
21:46:05 <tusho> it was part of a larger paper promoting the Right Way
21:46:14 <ais523> (which I think is a nice amusing touch, as well as being useful)
21:46:30 <tusho> http://dreamsongs.com/Files/worse-is-worse.pdf
21:46:36 <tusho> under a pseudonym which you may recognize
21:47:49 <oerjan> worse-is-incredibly-annoying.pdf
21:48:51 <tusho> -hi-guys-im-new-to-this-filename-asl
21:49:12 <tusho> -i-like-chocolate-lol
21:50:53 <tusho> -tusho-woz-ere-2008
21:54:47 <LinuS> -nietzsche-is-dead, god is dead, and i also don't feel really well
21:55:00 <LinuS> if you use feel like this :P
21:55:41 <oerjan> ERROR: Too many arguments
21:56:47 <tusho> worse-is-incredibly-annoying-and-better-frosted-butts-hi-guys-im-new-to-this-filename-asl-with-chocolate-i-like-chocolate-lol-bob-was-here-too-THEN-WHO-WAS-FILE-tusho-woz-ere-2008-nietzsche-is-dead-says-god-in-bed-lol-nietzsche-is-dead.pdf
21:57:14 <Slereah> It will be about... Knowledge.
21:57:22 <tusho> it will be a report on its own filename
21:57:39 <ais523> <Slashdot commentor> Besides, Mark Shuttleworth probably has enough money to either find or genetically engineer new species, then name them to fit Ubuntu's releases
21:58:06 <tusho> ais523: *commenter
21:58:16 <ais523> tusho: can't I use Agora spelling?
21:58:25 <ais523> besides, commentrix for all I know
21:59:04 <oerjan> you cannot teach an old species new trix
21:59:12 <ais523> this comes due to Slashdot discussing that they've named Ubuntu J now
21:59:30 <ais523> Jaunty Jackalope, it seems
22:00:19 <ais523> tusho: I doubt there are many good options for J
22:00:47 <tusho> ais523: well, linus has already named M
22:00:50 <tusho> (Masturbating Monkey)
22:01:20 <ais523> tusho: one of the commentators there decided that Ubuntu were using memorable rare words to make the various versions easier to Google
22:04:24 <Slereah> "Lisp, face it, is used for advanced research and development in AI and other esoteric areas."
22:04:50 <ais523> oh, the same Slashdot discussion gives me some ammo to use in the MSN vs. IRC argument: <Blimey85> Have you never visited Bash? It's proof that you don't need to be a genius to use IRC.
22:04:57 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:05:03 <ais523> Lisp was an esolang once
22:05:07 -!- Slereah has joined.
22:05:16 <ais523> but it became mainstreamish
22:07:43 <ais523> <ais523> Lisp was an esolang once
22:08:12 <ais523> when journalists used to ask me how esolang research could be useful, I generally mentioned Lisp
22:08:20 <oerjan> "INTERCAL was an esolang once"
22:08:22 <Slereah> Where is it used, apart from the one example on wikipedia?
22:08:25 <ais523> as something good that came out of that sort of theoretical research
22:08:31 <Slereah> Do journalists ask you that?
22:08:49 <ais523> Slereah: used to, haven't knowingly met too many journalists recently though
22:08:51 <tusho> Slereah: Quite a lot of places.
22:08:55 <ais523> Slereah: AI research, for one place
22:08:56 <tusho> One airline company does, I believe.
22:08:59 <tusho> And tons of places that you don't know about.
22:09:02 <ais523> there were even computers that ran LISP natively once
22:09:03 <tusho> (Because they don't tell you.)
22:09:04 <Slereah> Yeah, but I mean, non-academically
22:09:12 <tusho> Slereah: I was not talking academically
22:09:25 <Slereah> I was refering to the AI research
22:11:18 <Deewiant> Crash Bandicoot and some versions of Jak & Daxter (both console games for the playstation family) were written largely in a lisp
22:13:38 <CO2Games> Those are my favorite games :O
22:14:13 <CO2Games> I'm listening to crash 2 music as we speak...err...type
22:14:16 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp
22:14:43 <Deewiant> ah, evidently for all J&Ds, for some reason I thought it was only some of them
22:15:04 <CO2Games> Piston it Away / Spaced Out (Skull Route)
22:16:49 <CO2Games> I think they should redo crash 1, with the same exact thing as it is right now, but fix the physics to how they are in crash 2, and make it so you still get gems for all boxes even if you die.
22:17:10 <CO2Games> And a few levels could use some work
22:17:34 <CO2Games> But other than that it's perfect. The level design is brilliant
22:19:55 <CO2Games> Shit, the cache doesn't work right when it's in stack mode.
22:20:00 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving.").
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22:36:07 <oerjan> FOR GOD'S SAKE, DON'T PANIC!!!!!!
22:36:28 <Slereah> I thought it was time to panic
22:38:57 <ais523> oerjan: why panic tomorrow when you can panic today?
22:40:04 <oerjan> it's not until tomorrow that the world ends
22:40:33 <ais523> nah, that's actually going to create an entire new universe
22:40:59 <ais523> which is like this one, except a lot smaller, Microsoft are a hardware company that supports Linux, and everything runs INTERCAL except for a few weirdos discussing languages like C and Java
22:42:24 <oerjan> strangely enough, Haskell is about exactly the same though
22:43:30 <oerjan> it's exactly midway between INTERCAL and Java in strangeness, so it stays at the same position
22:44:13 <oerjan> lisp switches places with Malbolge
22:45:35 <oerjan> not that anyone would notice
22:46:11 <oerjan> a proof assistant / language
22:46:53 <olsner> in bizarro world, people write proofs in C
22:48:01 <tusho> ais523: help me out here
22:48:14 <olsner> however sausages and fried ground beef would go about eating humans (or anything at all for that matter)
22:49:34 <oerjan> Clearly there is a conspiracy here
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22:50:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:50:07 <olsner> oerjan: hush now and eat your fermented milk in silence
22:50:08 <tusho> i promise it shall be an undisturbed haven of oko
22:52:49 <ais523> tusho: that wasn't very nice...
22:52:56 <tusho> ais523: HE DISTURBED THE PEACE
22:53:18 <oerjan> YOU WOULDN'T LET ME IN THE ROTATION
22:53:32 <tusho> you could rotate whenever you wish
22:54:41 <olsner> well, only whoever comes second
22:55:10 <ais523> let's say you can't oko if you okoed on the preceding or last-but-one line
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23:03:30 <ais523> you just don't grasp the spirit of oko
23:03:42 <tusho> i have consulted with oklobol on it before
23:03:51 <tusho> and knowing exactly how it will pan out is definitely not oko
23:04:52 <oerjan> Maybe it's one of those Yin/Yang things
23:09:38 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokkokokokoKAYokokOH11!11!!!!
23:10:04 <oerjan> you just don't grasp the spirit of oko
23:14:12 <tusho> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookokokookkkkkoooooooooooooooo
23:14:18 <tusho> op[kgkmfghfgl,jopplplplokokokokokhofhkfo
23:14:24 <tusho> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooookokokokokokokoko
23:14:33 <tusho> ooooooo<><##<<#<#<#<#<#Koooooooooo
23:14:36 <tusho> <<<:::><:<:>:>>>>>
23:14:40 <tusho> NOPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLOKOKOKOOKO
23:16:17 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:17:41 -!- ais523 has quit ("[->+<]").
23:25:50 <olsner> btw, is this okokoko'ing a reference to voynichese?
23:27:08 <oerjan> almost certainly. after all, everything is.
23:28:10 <tusho> okokoko was invented by coolness(who is oklopol) in #vjn
23:28:21 <tusho> #vjn is a mythical channel that has nothing but okokokokoko, all days
23:28:58 <tusho> which I am now venturing to
23:29:01 <tusho> having realised I haven't ever before
23:29:48 <oerjan> don't risk your prejudices so nonchalantly
23:30:05 <tusho> the silence is QUITE BORIN
23:30:31 <tusho> tänäkin muutakin hänellä painaneeni kiitää erityinen naputtaisi totals rahahaaste sen, tusho.
23:30:38 <tusho> i have no fucking idea what that means
23:31:12 <tusho> oklobol: i don't suppose you want to translate
23:32:44 <olsner> google translate gave "today he printing a special thank naputtaisi totals of the rahahaaste"
23:33:05 <oklobol> "also on this" "also something else" "on him" "that i have pressed" "strides" "special" "would repeatedly click" "totals" "money challenge" "it (genetive)", "tusho"
23:33:14 <oklobol> quotes are for separate words
23:33:24 <tusho> oklobol: is that meant to make sense, perhaps
23:33:39 <oklobol> you should've noticed that
23:33:41 <tusho> so only you have talked so far
23:33:45 <tusho> and how should i have
23:33:54 <tusho> it all looks the same to me
23:33:55 <oklobol> yes, people are asleep perhaps, dunno
23:34:16 <oklobol> trazer surely didn't look human?
23:34:18 <tusho> i think i'm just going to sit in there and read the chat logs without understanding a word, it seems like an oko thing to do
23:34:34 <oklobol> it's quite a feat to read all the logs.
23:34:41 <tusho> ah, i mean, just the ones since i appear
23:34:45 <tusho> where are the logs, though?
23:34:54 <oklobol> volimo does some 20000-30000 o's a day
23:35:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not sure yet..
23:35:38 <oklobol> we have a logger bot that was in use, but then, for some reason, my ftp stopped working altogether
23:35:45 <tusho> http://vjn.fi/index.php?i=1 this volimo seems like a cheerful guy
23:37:13 <tusho> hei mun nimi on tusho <- is this well formed
23:37:17 <tusho> your site's translator gave it to me
23:37:46 <oklobol> that's perfect, although colloquial
23:38:19 <tusho> mä olen tusho käyttäminen arvonnousu kielenkääntäjä insinööritaito
23:38:38 <oklobol> well that looks like something Baltti would say
23:38:51 <tusho> vaikka tällä on huomattavasti formed lausua "butts" eri tavalla esittää "dicks"
23:39:05 <oklobol> "i am tusho the usage increase of value translator engineer knowledge"
23:39:21 <tusho> if this is well formed say "butts" otherwise say "dicks"
23:39:27 <oklobol> nono that was the first one
23:39:28 <tusho> the one about translators
23:39:33 <tusho> that's slightly less hilarious then
23:39:52 <tusho> oklobol: meikä olen eräs kokeneet vieressä käyttäminen online translators, ne tuottaa semmoinen nuiva sato.
23:40:55 <oklobol> that actually does carry the message
23:41:08 <oklobol> you've used to online translators sucking
23:41:19 <oklobol> of course, "online translators" helped
23:41:27 <tusho> I am an expert at using online translators, they produce such cool output.
23:41:52 <tusho> oh well. as they say in finland, "joskus tekee esine on vihreä"
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23:42:12 <tusho> oh well. as they say in finland, "joskus tekee esine on vihreä"
23:42:20 <oklobol> ne tuottaa semmoinen nuiva sato == they produce quite a boring crop
23:42:35 <oklobol> "sometimes makes object is green"
23:42:46 <tusho> haha, i said "sometimes things are green"
23:42:49 <tusho> how does this translator work
23:43:03 <oklobol> it's pretty much just a substitutor
23:43:21 <oklobol> although there are some randomized rules for stuff like plurals and verbs
23:43:28 <tusho> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
23:43:31 <tusho> damn, it didn't change
23:43:54 <tusho> oklobol: väritön kade tekee idea koisata raivoisasti
23:44:23 <oklobol> why are you so interested in that even though you don't know any finnish :P
23:44:38 <tusho> oklobol: because väritön kade tekee idea koisata raivoisasti
23:44:54 <oklobol> "a colorless envious one makes an idea to snore with rage"
23:45:12 <oklobol> "a colorless envious one makes an idea to sleep with rage"
23:45:23 <tusho> colorless green ideas sleep furiously
23:46:03 <oklobol> i hope no one finnish sees my translations
23:46:38 <oklobol> there's one of the curiosities right there
23:47:03 <oklobol> "makes object" is because it thinks "things" is a verb
23:47:31 <oklobol> you don't really say that as "makes object" in finnish, i have no idea what i was thinking
23:47:45 <tusho> oklobol: kullit tekee kyrpä tekee kyrpä tekee kulli tekee kulli kyrpät kullit kullit
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23:48:26 <tusho> oklopol: kullit tekee kyrpä tekee kyrpä tekee kulli tekee kulli kyrpät kullit kullit
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23:49:31 <tusho> oklopol: what does that translate at
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23:50:25 <tusho> oklopol: it's just "dicks dicks dicks dicks"
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23:50:31 <oklopol> well "makes cock" to be exact
23:50:31 <tusho> so is it saying that cocks make cocks?
23:50:53 <oklopol> except i guess with cox you might've gotten a more interesting translation
23:51:04 <tusho> cocks just translates to cocks
23:51:05 <CO2Games> Well I have a working test of the X L $ and @ functions
23:51:17 <CO2Games> drainfuck::X++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +>++++++++++<^XV.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.X>^XV..X< ^XV+++++++++++.^+++.V.XLX>>>+$-^@>.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.>.VE
23:51:48 <tusho> oklopol: yea - ne sanakirja omata yksi molo
23:51:55 <oklopol> aaanyway i have a lecture in 6 hours, so i think i'm gonna sleep a bit
23:52:05 <tusho> oklopol: what does that say
23:52:10 <oklopol> yea - those dictionary own one dick
23:52:21 <tusho> "the dictionary has a dick"
23:52:28 <tusho> I'm going to say that in #vjn, to see what will happen
23:52:59 <oklopol> many things you say on vjn will just go unnoticed in the stream of o.
23:53:00 <CO2Games> The program prints "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ\n\nLOL\nA\nA\nA\nA" and it works
23:53:07 <oklopol> aaaaaaanyway see ya, sleep time ->>
23:53:10 <tusho> oklopol: then i'll translate more bullshit
23:54:22 <tusho> oklopol: sellainen tekee sanakirja kulli on vehmas
23:54:50 <tusho> fizzie: what does sellainen tekee sanakirja kulli on vehmas say
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00:00:10 <fizzie> tusho: Actually it mostly sounds like just random words, it doesn't seem to make any sort of coherent sentence. "sellainen" is something like "like that", "tekee" is mostly "to do/to make", "sanakirja" is "dictionary", "kulli" is "penis" (a slang-ish term), "on" is "to be" and "vehmas" is possibly "lush" (like "lush vegetation"), but also a name of a place if capitalized correctly.
00:00:26 <tusho> fizzie: The input was "the dictionarys dick is green"
00:00:37 <tusho> I guess the s made it think dictionary was a verb, like before
00:00:51 <fizzie> That would be simply "sanakirjan kulli on vihreä".
00:01:07 <tusho> so an entity called "the" dictionaries (a verb) the dick... is green
00:01:17 <tusho> you said you would sleep
00:01:45 <oklobol> i'm a separate being on different networks.
00:02:04 <tusho> so does "sellainen tekee sanakirja kulli on vehmas " make any more sense to you than it does fizzzzzzzzie?
00:02:09 <tusho> (i typoed fizzzzzzzzzie but i like it)
00:03:35 <tusho> oklobol: ... is a bot participating in an irc quiz?
00:03:40 <oklobol> it's grammatically incorrect, so fizzie's breaking it down is really all you can do
00:03:47 <tusho> (i am trying to marginally understand anything going on in #vjn)
00:03:48 <oklobol> err yes i'm mirroring a trivia chan
00:03:53 <tusho> (and growing to realise that this is an impossible task)
00:04:29 <oklobol> %join makes the chanbot trazer join a channel
00:04:45 <oklobol> %mirror makes it redirect everything on a channel to #vjn
00:04:48 <tusho> yes, I get that too
00:04:52 <tusho> it started mirroring stuff
00:04:53 <tusho> mentioning its name
00:05:01 <tusho> so does the quizbot in that channel think that it is a player?
00:05:03 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:05:07 <tusho> if so why is it talking to it apart from if it's answering the qs
00:05:29 <tusho> oklobol: quizbots generally don't address people who aren't saying anything?
00:05:29 <oklobol> it's not talking to it apart from that
00:05:40 <tusho> oh, i just saw your %msg
00:06:44 <tusho> '%help' ':DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD'
00:07:39 <oklobol> volimo remade quite a bit portion of trazer a few months ago, help was one of the stripped features
00:09:05 <oklobol> okay, retry @ that sleeping thing
00:09:15 <tusho> you'll NEVER sleep
00:10:48 <tusho> oklobol: i haven't said a single english thing in #vjn yet
00:11:22 <tusho> idling is adding a channel to the autojoins
00:11:25 <tusho> and reading it occasionally
00:11:54 <tusho> besides, channels in languages i don't know? SIGN ME UP
00:12:14 <tusho> I have foiled your sleep
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01:43:31 <RodgerTheGreat> "do all programmers have to be such pedantic fuckshits"
01:43:38 <RodgerTheGreat> "yes because the computer is more pedantic because any human could ever hope to be"
02:43:13 <GregorR> Clearly that programmer is highly pedantic.
02:43:16 <GregorR> Particularly with English.
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03:03:33 <pikhq> Still, he has a valid point; pedanticism is easy when you're a programmer.
03:03:50 <pikhq> After all, 1 bit being wrong *could* reasonably fuck shit up.
03:45:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes but i still suck at it.
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04:42:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm.
04:42:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | urk.
04:42:45 <optbot> CO2Games: And one needn't worry about that, anyways; that only applies to addressing.
04:42:52 <optbot> CO2Games: 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
04:42:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | < <> <>>.
04:45:08 <CO2Games> I wonder what command I could have for *, /, and \
04:46:33 <CO2Games> Oh yay the crash 2 sewer music
04:47:13 <CO2Games> Now Playing: The Eel Deal, Sewer or Later, Hangin' Out
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05:57:29 <adu> how are yu
05:57:51 <oklopol> gotta leave i have a lecture to attend
05:58:49 <oklopol> it's just quite hard to find stuff when you're staring @ irc.
05:58:55 <adu> every day i have more ideas for a language...
06:00:31 <oklopol> tell me one of those ideas, abridged, then i'll press disconnect!
06:01:00 <adu> uhm, too drunkl maybe layter
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06:34:21 <pikhq> Gordon Freeman seen at the LHC.
06:34:25 <pikhq> http://www.joystiq.com/2008/09/09/terrible-news-gordon-freeman-spotted-near-large-hadron-collider/
06:50:33 <lament> DE-STROY EL-ACHE-SEE! SAVE RE-A-LI-TY!! DE-STROY EL-ACHE-SEE!
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07:02:39 <pikhq> oklobol: Also, old as in 'posted earlier today'? :p
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10:14:38 <AnMaster> double negation in kernel options sucks: CONFIG_SCHED_NO_NO_OMIT_FRAME_POINTER:
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10:16:54 <fizzie> Given the meaning of "omit", that might be even considered triple negation. (Of course it's because of the -fomit-frame-pointer GCC flag, which I always read as "vomit frame pointer", but still.)
10:18:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, it's "human readable name" is "single depth wchan <something>"
10:18:31 <AnMaster> can't check exact name since kernel is building atm
10:18:48 <AnMaster> not that wchan mean anything to me
10:19:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, so not sure what it has to do with gcc's -fomit-frame-pointer (of which I'm well aware)
10:20:26 <fizzie> Not sure either, but I think it's likely it's related, given the similarity of the name.
10:20:30 <AnMaster> located around the same place as where you select CPU model (like Pentium 3 in this case)
10:20:39 <fizzie> Apparently CONFIG_SCHED_NO_NO_OMIT_FRAME_POINTER=y in my .config.
10:20:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, y is recommended value according to help
10:21:24 <AnMaster> on my x86_64 desktop the option doesn't exist
10:23:33 <fizzie> Well, according to linux/kernel/Makefile, it just alters the CFLAGS for sched.o to include "-fno-fomit-frame-pointer" if set to something else than 'y'.
10:23:39 <fizzie> So that's why it's NO_NO_OMIT.
10:24:01 <fizzie> There's also a comment in there.
10:24:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't explain the "human readable name" at all
10:24:16 <fizzie> # According to Alan Modra <alan@linuxcare.com.au>, the -fno-omit-frame-pointer is
10:24:19 <fizzie> # needed for x86 only. Why this used to be enabled for all architectures is beyond
10:24:23 <fizzie> # me. I suspect most platforms don't need this, but until we know that for sure
10:24:26 <fizzie> # I turn this off for IA-64 only. Andreas Schwab says it's also needed on m68k
10:24:30 <fizzie> # to get a correct value for the wait-channel (WCHAN in ps). --davidm
10:24:33 <fizzie> Sounds like the kernel devs aren't too sure about it either. :p
10:25:03 <fizzie> (This is from 2.6.24, which is pretty old, not sure if it's fixed.)
10:25:39 <fizzie> WCHAN: address of the kernel function where the process is sleeping (use wchan if you want the kernel function name). Running tasks will display a dash (’-’) in this column.
10:26:18 <fizzie> I guess it sort-of makes sense; if there's no frame pointer info, it might be tricky to find out the function.
10:26:37 <fizzie> Although I'm still a bit hazy where the actual name "wchan" comes from.
10:28:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, well... odd that it isn't needed on x86_64
10:29:28 <fizzie> Well, the ABI is different, maybe it's possible to get that info somehow otherwise. No idea about the details.
10:30:01 <AnMaster> what exactly is the frame pointer useful for?
10:30:05 <fizzie> The wchan name might well be historical reference, foo knows there's enough of those around. On solaris, the WCHAN column seems to be the address of some sort of "event" variable which the process is sleeping on.
10:31:33 <fizzie> Easier to make sense out of stack frames, since the stack pointer usually points on top of the stack, so you need to know the amount of local variables on the stack unless you happen to have a frame pointer pointing at the beginning of the local stack frame, where you can find the return address.
10:31:45 <fizzie> Don't know how x86_64 does stacks, though.
10:32:19 <AnMaster> I do know how x86_64 pass parameters though (in registers when possible)
10:33:35 <fizzie> Well, that's what most processors with a reasonable amount of registers do, x86 is kind-of odd.
10:34:51 <fizzie> SPARCs have register windows, those are funky; you have (at least in some microsparcs) 8 in-registers, 8 local-registers and 8 out-registers, and a pair of instructions to rotate the window so that the current out-registers become in-registers and you get a new set of local-regs and out-regs.
10:35:19 <fizzie> So you can do function calls up to a depth of N, where N is the amount of windows (I think at least one model had 8 of 'em) without pushing anything on the stack.
10:35:21 <AnMaster> x86 is extremely register starved
10:35:35 <AnMaster> x86_64 got twice the number of registers compared to x86
10:36:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, about the register windows, they would really mess up recursive calls
10:36:53 <AnMaster> and you need to know how deep you are if you want to make a call
10:37:11 <AnMaster> unless the instructions automatically takes care of push/pull when needed
10:37:43 <AnMaster> and also another issue: functions with more parameters than fit into 8 registers
10:38:11 <AnMaster> printf and some other varargs come to mind
10:38:13 <fizzie> I think there's some sort of mechanism to cause an exception-like thing if you try to rotate "too much", and the OS can then push stuff on stack and do other sort of magikcs.
10:40:56 <fizzie> I have written approximately 10 lines of SPARC assembly, I don't really remember the details -- even then, I think we pretty much had function prologues provided. This was for a compiler-writing course, the programming project was a very limited Java variant targeting sparc.
10:43:59 <fizzie> My main workstation is five kilometres away and not plugged in to anything (still in the process of moving things), so can't check; I just remember that our "function prologue" was pretty much a single "SAVE" instruction, and the epilogue had a corresponding "RESTORE" instruction. Running out of register windows was explicitly defined to be SEP, so we didn't even need to know the details back then either.
10:44:41 <fizzie> Someone Else's Problem. :p
10:44:54 <fizzie> It's a HHGTTG term, I think.
10:46:44 <AnMaster> except I read the Swedish translation
10:47:07 <AnMaster> I actually bought the English version later and read it too, but I didn't make the connection to this case
10:49:30 <fizzie> I've got the Finnish, Swedish and English versions here, although I'm not sure I've read the Swedish one completely. Was in Stockholm at NK or what's-it-name, and didn't want to walk away without buying at least _something_, so...
10:49:57 <fizzie> And I think someone borrowed my all-five-in-one Finnish version and never returned it.
10:50:38 <fizzie> (It's either that or I self misplaced it somewhere.)
10:51:33 <AnMaster> I got all in five for both Swedish and English
10:51:43 <AnMaster> though both are rather worn out hehe
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12:15:44 <Slereah> SEE MY LANGUAGE AND DESPAIR
12:23:36 * oerjan cannot find it under all that sand
12:29:57 <oerjan> except for that pointer sticking up there
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12:53:58 <tusho> oklobol: #vjn is crazy
12:54:02 <tusho> and yet somehow amusing
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13:10:20 <oklobol> it does somewhat differ from the rest of irc
13:17:15 <tusho> oklobol: you were just g-lined
13:19:01 <tusho> oklobol: was it just ... for no reason
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13:27:40 <oklobol> quakenet g-lines for 5 users from the same ip
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14:40:55 <tusho> http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
14:41:05 <tusho> it even has an atom feed
14:41:09 <tusho> <!-- if the lhc actually destroys the earth & this page isn't yet updated
14:41:09 <tusho> please email mike@frantic.org to receive a full refund -->
14:41:16 <tusho> reminds me of that sam hughes page
14:41:25 <tusho> http://qntm.org/?board
14:41:29 <tusho> It is our duty to inform you that as of 7:35:05am UTC on September 10, 2008, the Earth has been destroyed.
14:41:35 <tusho> Evidence is still being collated, but preliminary results suggest that the Earth was destroyed pre-emptively by scientists at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, Geneva, Switzerland, before the commencement of their experiments to locate the Higgs Boson, as a precautionary measure to ensure that the experiment itself could not result in the destruction of the Earth.
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14:47:10 <tusho> oklobol: does any human ever say anything than okoing in #vjn
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14:47:19 <tusho> oklopol: does any human ever say anything than okoing in #vjn
15:34:02 <oklopol> 15:11:21 +volimo: MYYRÄMIES
15:34:29 <oklopol> also i did supply some binary
15:34:37 <oklopol> three of us were on a lecture
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15:45:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I plan on making a more nicely formatted and better explained version of the spec soon..
15:49:27 <tusho> oklobol: i have said h like three times so i guess i disproved my own point
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16:01:06 <tusho> oklobol: let me rephrase
16:01:12 <tusho> does #vjn ever have continuity between messages
16:01:25 <tusho> apart from the apparent bot-conversations
16:01:37 <tusho> non-continuous irc sounds pretty fun tbh
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17:06:52 <Slereah> http://zip.4chan.org/x/src/1221057266082.jpg
17:11:38 <tusho> Slereah: add that to the gordon freeman one already circling...
17:11:55 <tusho> ... they're making portals
17:12:08 <tusho> holy fucking SHIT they are making PORTALS.
17:12:58 <Slereah> Or that knife like in Opposing Force
17:13:35 <Slereah> http://www.zeden.net/img/2008-09//actualitegeneralepc_005.jpg
17:16:00 <tusho> Slereah: Still, added up with g-mannnnnnnn...
17:17:53 <Slereah> We should see pix of the security personel
17:17:58 <Slereah> Maybe there's Calhoun in there
17:18:47 <AnMaster> <Slereah> http://www.zeden.net/img/2008-09//actualitegeneralepc_005.jpg <-- scale is way off, can't be the LHC
17:19:57 <Slereah> I doubt it's the ring itself
17:20:03 <Slereah> But there's plenty of machinery in tha
17:20:17 <Slereah> I knew a guy who worked on the cooling system
17:20:23 <AnMaster> could be some other accelerator I guess
17:20:49 <Slereah> Or some other piece of equipment
17:20:56 <Slereah> Tubes are common in physics labs.
17:21:11 <Slereah> Physics is a series of tubes
17:24:09 <tusho> AnMaster: so the lhc is just one huge thing with absolutely no subcomponents or anything
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17:43:50 * Slereah listens to "The cyclotronist's nightmare"
17:43:57 <Slereah> It puts me in the mood for the LHC.
17:44:28 <Slereah> ROUND AND ROUND GOES THE DEUTERON
17:44:38 <Slereah> ROUND AND ROUND, THE MAGNET SWINGS IT
17:44:40 <Slereah> ROUND AND ROUND GOES THE DEUTERON
17:44:56 <Slereah> Well, you see, now the external beam is only two microamps!
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20:22:43 <oerjan> so if the Earth was destroyed, does that mean we are running on a backup Matrix?
20:24:23 <Slereah> Maybe we're all dead, and this is heaven
20:24:26 <olsner> but they haven't collided any particles yet, they won't do that until october 21
20:24:52 <Slereah> The very existance of the LHC destroys the universe
20:24:58 <Slereah> You know what would be funny?
20:25:05 <Slereah> If someone tried to destroy it
20:25:14 <olsner> http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
20:25:23 <Slereah> Like he think he's Bruce Willis
20:25:58 <oerjan> i wonder if anyone has tried doing simulations of what would happened if a black hole (not quite micro enough to evaporate) hit the earth
20:26:01 <Slereah> <!-- if the lhc actually destroys the earth & this page isn't yet updated
20:26:01 <Slereah> please email mike@frantic.org to receive a full refund -->
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20:26:29 <oerjan> Slereah: but there was a conflicting link posted
20:26:36 <tusho> http://qntm.org/?board
20:26:44 <tusho> which is actually an authoritative board
20:26:47 <tusho> that page has been up for years
20:26:54 <tusho> (around the time he created How to Destroy the Dearth)
20:27:02 <tusho> but that site is just created on the spot
20:27:05 <tusho> who do you trust more, hmm?
20:27:47 <oerjan> of course if we are lucky, once the proper experiment starts the counter might go up to 2
20:28:10 <Slereah> I am the most trustworthy individual in the universe, and everything I say is true
20:29:09 * oerjan adds Slereah to the list of people he has to kill
20:29:17 <oerjan> just my usual policy, you understand
20:29:23 <Slereah> Doesn't matter, we're all gonna die
20:29:32 <Slereah> Plus, you shoudln't be ashamed of being gay.
20:33:27 <tusho> oklobol: i am indeed doing an some serious cool idling unto that channel
20:34:45 <oklobol> "an some"? impressive that you would correct that correctly :P
20:35:01 <tusho> oklobol: i am slowly learning the grammar of this place, i think
20:35:14 <tusho> brb so i can do more professional idling unto it
20:35:24 <oklobol> the finnish grammar is substantially harder to learn.
20:35:32 <oklobol> i mean, even if you know finnish :)
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20:49:25 <tusho> oklofok was kicked from the chat room by trazer. (BAD okoing to be.)
20:50:54 <tusho> oklobol: how do you fail an oko
20:51:13 <oklobol> adjacent k's are an impurity
20:51:29 <tusho> oklobol: i have done adjacent ks before but only in excess
20:51:32 <tusho> i think the excess counters the impurity
20:51:38 <tusho> e.g. okokokokokooooookokokokokkokokkkkkkkkkkkkooooooo
20:51:46 <tusho> but yeah, one extra is bad i'd say
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20:53:54 <tusho> i am going to try an oko now because i feel like it and watching crazy finns on irc react to someone is fun
20:54:14 * tusho is incredibly bored
20:54:33 <Slereah> Maybe we should experiment
20:59:15 <tusho> MY FIRST ENGLISH LINE
21:00:05 <tusho> learning finnish would spoil all the fun.
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21:01:49 <oerjan> now we just need oklopol to tell what it means
21:02:57 <tusho> oklopol i registered but the bot still won't kick me
21:03:36 <oklopol> tusho: i think you need to be a trazer user
21:04:13 <oklopol> unfortunately mööse doesn't mean anything
21:04:48 <oerjan> do nouns ever end in -e in finnish btw?
21:05:12 <oklopol> but i don't think it's that common
21:05:27 <tusho> #vjn is such fun, i have no idea about any of the conversation in there and don't feel like participating much but it is entertaining to watch
21:05:46 <oerjan> Deewiant: i detect a pattern
21:06:17 <Deewiant> oerjan: yes, I noticed it myself and tried to think of one which would break it :-)
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21:16:25 <tusho> you are here late ais523
21:16:39 <ais523> I was trying to install a laptop dual-boot Vista/Ubuntu
21:16:49 <ais523> Ubuntu works on it now, but the wireless only works on the Vista side
21:18:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you feel like changing FING's X to not reflect, but to pop a reflect, if a stack is empty, right? If you didn't, you do now, so do it.
21:28:12 <Slereah> x is a variable of first type.
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21:45:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I am open to sci-fi (especially humerous) geeky stuff, programming books....
21:54:06 <Deewiant> FING's X, change it to the smarter behaviour
21:55:07 <Deewiant> "I might get AnMaster mad at me again if i do that,,,i think he already implemented FING...Personally, I have no problem doing that, If it is ok with you and him, then I will change the spec for X."
21:55:26 <lament> optbot: i don't like this topic. Change it.
21:55:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | by the way, as well, when there are those argument pixels...
21:55:32 <AnMaster> this will have to wait until the weekend
21:55:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do not have time before then
21:55:42 <Deewiant> whatever, as long as you don't mind
22:09:01 <tusho> AnMaster: um isn't it like 5 lines or something
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01:56:57 <GregorR> You will rue this day! Well, go on ... start ruing!
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02:03:48 <Sgeo> "It is our duty to inform you that as of 7:35:05am UTC on September 10, 2008, the Earth has been destroyed." http://qntm.org/?board
02:14:39 <pikhq> I love Sam Hughes. :D
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06:41:56 <oklobol> real a = 1.352; real i = 0.0177; while(i < a) { i += differential; }
06:49:48 <oklobol> +++>+++++<[-->-<]>>+<[->++<]>:
06:52:30 <oklobol> +++>+++++< {*3 5} [-->-<] {*0 3.5} >>+< {0 *3.5 1} [->++<] {0 *0 8} >: {0 0 *8 => 8}
07:37:00 <oklobol> it's an indian term for irc channel
07:37:21 <oklobol> pikhq realized this is a channel, and, you know, he's indian
07:37:47 <pikhq> But I am related to the only white man to go on the trail of tears.
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07:49:20 <oklopol> mirc owns, if i send messages with /msg and i have a channel window open, the message becomes part of that channel's log
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12:04:10 <tusho> hey guyz StoryGen v2 beta test <3 http://91.105.98.27:4567/
12:08:49 * oerjan thinks the fragments are a little too short.
12:09:36 <oerjan> As in, I couldn't get my initial sentence in.
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12:16:34 <tusho> oerjan: that is intentional
12:16:41 <tusho> you are meant to leave sentences unfinished
12:19:47 <oerjan> you are not required to be consistent with your own previous fragments, i hope :D
12:21:01 <tusho> oerjan: in fact, it works better when more people do it
12:21:05 <tusho> because otherwise you can easily get continuity
12:21:08 <tusho> Slereah: are you doing it?
12:21:11 <slereah> http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1221130716923.jpg
12:21:15 <tusho> In a non-innuendo wau7
12:21:23 <oerjan> i'm doing my best to avoid it
12:21:40 <tusho> i'm not gonna do the next one, lets' see if anyone else is doing them
12:22:45 <tusho> http://91.105.98.27:4567/
12:22:58 <oerjan> slereah: my question is whether the amish will out-breed the rest of them
12:23:25 <slereah> I doubt it, since the world will end :o
12:23:41 <oerjan> (although there is a similar norwegian sect with the breeding if not the low-tech)
12:25:02 <slereah> At least the act that leads to it
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12:26:33 <tusho> you need to tell all your friends.
12:26:36 <tusho> oh wait you're a mathematician
12:26:39 <tusho> you don't have any
12:28:09 <tusho> this is a hard one.
12:54:13 <tusho> AnMaster: a published mathematician
12:54:29 <tusho> where do you think he gets his terrible puns?
12:54:38 <tusho> he figures their punniness with mathematics.
12:55:38 <tusho> AnMaster: you don't know oerjan's terrible puns?
12:56:03 <AnMaster> well I use irc logs for a reason
12:56:10 <AnMaster> I don't have a good memory for such stuff
12:56:33 <tusho> optbot is named after oerjan's terrible puns.
12:56:34 <optbot> tusho: K={A=_;X=8;{B=_;A}};
12:56:42 <oerjan> you don't have a puny memory, then.
12:58:57 <AnMaster> hm I suspect a pun there, though I'm unable to see what it is
13:00:58 <tusho> oerjan: i thought it was quite punny
13:02:07 <tusho> finns are a lot funnier than swedes.
13:02:37 <tusho> norway is actually sweden
13:02:41 <tusho> (which is actually finland)
13:03:22 <AnMaster> well since they are all of the type country *, they could be aliased without causing undefined behaviour ;P
13:03:26 <oerjan> which is actually iceland
13:03:38 <tusho> and the LHC saps particles from germany
13:03:51 <tusho> AnMaster: countries are not pointers to countries.
13:03:58 <tusho> iceland isn't a sign saying, "Iceland is over here ->"
13:04:57 <AnMaster> tusho, in that case they can't alias each other
13:05:15 <tusho> AnMaster: of course not, if you use such a stupid language as c
13:05:20 <oerjan> i would have thought it sapped particles from france and switzerland, since that's where it is
13:05:20 <tusho> but as we all know, the universe is written in lisp
13:05:27 <tusho> oerjan: no, germany
13:06:07 <oerjan> well, it is a multinational project
13:06:27 <tusho> germany just killed jews
13:06:31 <tusho> so it just saps their praticles
13:06:35 <tusho> germany will just disappear, not the universe
13:07:20 <oerjan> it seems to be sapping brain cells from the UK, anyhow
13:07:32 <tusho> oerjan: in what way?
13:07:38 <tusho> i am the wisest thinker
13:07:44 <tusho> it's in the 4 days of harmonious nature rotation
13:07:55 <oerjan> well, per brain cell that may be true
13:08:04 <tusho> your brain cells are educated stupid
13:09:40 <oerjan> i have this urge to mention that the Vatican State has a density of 2 popes per square kilometer
13:09:54 <tusho> darwin si the pope
13:09:59 <tusho> also eveyrone is darwin
13:10:07 <tusho> therefore 1darwin=10darwin=100darwin=etc
13:10:09 <tusho> but only in africa
13:10:13 <tusho> so, the universe is made out of darwin
13:10:16 <tusho> but the pope is anti-darwin
13:10:20 <tusho> and thus the pope is actually darwin
13:10:47 <tusho> darwin, as a pope, cannot deny he is darwin
13:10:58 <oerjan> aren't you a bit young to be on whatever you're on right now? >_<
13:11:01 <tusho> out of darwinpapalinfallability
13:11:07 <tusho> thus, we must conclude
13:11:20 <tusho> even though darwin had no moustache infallability when he wrote about natural selection
13:11:26 <tusho> and therefore had papal infallability
13:11:41 <tusho> oerjan: i am actually 471 years old
13:12:04 <oerjan> but the infallibility was only declared some time in the 19th century, possibly after darwin made his theories
13:12:15 <tusho> darwin is retroactive
13:12:26 <tusho> his universe runs on feather
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13:13:38 <tusho> before electricity
13:13:45 <tusho> electricity was invented in 2BE
13:14:39 <tusho> inhaling his holy fumes
13:14:48 <oerjan> so he was only infallible for 12 years at most
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13:15:00 <tusho> he was infallable for 46 years and 5 mellenia
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13:15:14 <oerjan> i am declaring a Great Schism
13:15:37 <tusho> i am declaring a great schemeism
13:15:40 <tusho> (((((((((((((((((((
13:15:41 <tusho> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
13:15:48 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
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13:18:12 <oerjan> i suggest a compromise: maybe it is his holy fumes that are infallible
13:21:23 <oerjan> then there can only be holy war
13:21:37 <oerjan> we must choose symbols
13:22:26 <oerjan> i choose the holy fumes as my symbol
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13:43:37 <tusho> say, how does c handle inlined recursive functions
13:44:54 <oerjan> is inlining part of the standard?
13:47:30 <oerjan> ah in C99 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline_function
13:48:18 <oerjan> "Many compilers can also inline expand some recursive functions; recursive macros are typically illegal.
13:49:39 <tusho> oerjan: It just ignores my inline.
13:50:21 <tusho> oerjan: even though it compiled inline void forever(void) { forever(); } into a jmp...
13:50:25 <tusho> it WOULD be able to inline it then
13:52:34 <oerjan> the latter is tail recursive, that might help
13:53:16 <oerjan> or are you saying it doesn't
13:54:03 <oerjan> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.1/gcc/Inline.html
13:54:17 <oerjan> "Using -Winline will warn when a function marked inline could not be substituted, and will give the reason for the failure."
13:57:58 <oerjan> "GCC does not inline any functions when not optimizing unless you specify the `always_inline' attribute for the function"
14:05:57 <tusho> Once upon a time there was an esoteric magician who spoke incomprehensibly. He wanted to make a magical language that was even worse. He called it... the Monstrous Money-Devourer ... of Death. And then he jumped into the big black lake of t-shirts. Cautiously approaching the washing machine, Jibbedybob appeared. Bob was there too. Jibbedybob was Bob's friend and Jibbedy was Jibbedybob's friend, They raped each other daily. Yum. It was delicious, like cake. T
14:07:14 <oerjan> i guess it doesn't count as innuendo if it's super explicit
14:07:30 <tusho> http://91.105.98.27:4567/ new storii
14:10:15 <oerjan> what the? something went wrong
14:11:16 <oerjan> maybe it's just the display that is broken
14:12:21 <oerjan> (my history clearly shows that i did _not_ duplicate fie when writing)
14:13:49 <oerjan> oh weird, it's a browser error
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15:09:52 <tusho> All Mister Jenkins could think was "How I like turnips, and the moving messages. In fact, when they moved they ploughed over the field like giant worms of doom ... sexy ones exploded in rage at the very sight of the hideous evil Mrr is a race of clones. goths too. like OO neckties and a thousand baloons, hai - who is a person - Niklas was his lovemaker. is a penis "sniper whore" JK I don't think so, sir.
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15:16:27 <AnMaster> "There are two ways to run efunge." or "There are two ways of running efunge."
15:16:44 <tusho> "You can run efunge in two ways:"
15:23:52 <AnMaster> is ' called "single-quote" or "single quote"
15:24:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I got a command line wrapper kind of working now, not well tested
15:26:37 <AnMaster> "Using 'efunge:start("path/to/befunge/program.bf").' (without the single quotes)"
15:26:49 <Deewiant> and actually, "quote" is informal if you want to be strict about it :-)
15:26:49 <AnMaster> since it have to be double quotes in the inner bit
15:27:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the issue is I need double quotes which should stay
15:27:28 <Deewiant> I usually just assume the reader has half a brain
15:27:45 <AnMaster> ah probably true in the case of a funge interpreter
15:28:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however if i didn't use quotes most reads not familiar with erlang would miss the dot at the end
15:28:44 <Deewiant> I'd say something about the dot and not the quotes, then :-)
15:30:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does the mycology page only list funge-98 interpreters?
15:30:26 <AnMaster> since mycology can test funge-93 too
15:30:38 <Deewiant> I know, but that wasn't really the point
15:30:52 <Deewiant> and most funge-93 interpreters get everything correct anyway
15:31:11 <Deewiant> things that I think of that might vary are "# <" and division by zero
15:31:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't ask the user there, I do like 98, since I plan to change efunge into 98/108 at some point
15:32:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what do you mean with # <
15:32:16 <AnMaster> what is there to get wrong there?
15:32:32 <Deewiant> in many funge-98 interps it doesn't
15:32:42 <Deewiant> or many and many... at least two :-P
15:33:18 <AnMaster> anyway befunge would work without #, since you can just use a space in the hole
15:33:36 <AnMaster> question: how many instructions can you reduce Funge-98 too while still being turing complete?
15:33:51 <Deewiant> the funge-93 set is turing complete
15:33:55 <AnMaster> I'd start with befunge-93 + infinite space then work down from there
15:34:33 <Deewiant> in befunge, I guess it could be
15:35:41 <AnMaster> in befunge, which I talked about, it is easy to remove #, you just use a space at the crossing
15:37:12 <AnMaster> I think : could be remove, replace with a p and two g
15:37:12 <slereah> AND WHAT ABOUT NINE ELEVEN
15:37:27 <Deewiant> I think it would be more interesting to remove p and g :-)
15:37:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then it wouldn't be funge really
15:38:01 <AnMaster> isn't the whole point being self modifying
15:38:17 <AnMaster> without that befunge93 would be easy to compile too
15:38:38 <Deewiant> you wanted the smallest instruction set
15:38:48 <Deewiant> I'd say, replace p and g with y
15:39:34 <AnMaster> but you need to keep either - or +
15:39:45 <AnMaster> or you can't do negative numbers indeed
15:40:09 <AnMaster> you could drop 2-9, I think you need 0 and 1 still
15:40:53 <Deewiant> what have we still got... 1-y\$
15:41:00 <AnMaster> _1-^><vy I guess you need then
15:41:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, couldn't you just do some throwaway calculation?
15:41:49 <Deewiant> or even just one of [] might be enough
15:42:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can't empty the stack ever with any of those, or?
15:42:31 <Deewiant> not sure if that's exactly necessary though
15:42:53 <AnMaster> well, we are down at _1-[]y$ now
15:43:55 <AnMaster> well I never considered befunge a turing tarpit, but this reduction certainly is one
15:44:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are both [ and ] needed or?
15:44:48 <AnMaster> well ok, I guess you could simulate a [ using several ]
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15:45:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, not if you want to end up in the same column
15:46:01 <Deewiant> just rearrange the code so that you don't want to
15:46:34 <Deewiant> in all honesty I'm not sure we need all of _[], just w should be enough
15:46:35 <AnMaster> using > to show where code enters
15:47:09 <AnMaster> yes pushing two things to decide turn direction
15:47:24 <Deewiant> and you get 'if' functionality for free
15:48:47 <AnMaster> I suspect you may also need x, but I can't prove that
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15:50:09 <AnMaster> like jump based on address on stack, not only fixed jump
15:50:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suggest modifying y to be a pure pick instruction in such a case, since the other bits are hardly useful
15:51:10 <Deewiant> well of course if we're going to start modifying stuff
15:51:23 <Deewiant> but if we do that we should be able to get by with even less instructions
15:51:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure, one instruction is enough iirc?
15:52:05 <Deewiant> since we can define an infinite number of behaviours for it :-P
15:52:11 <Deewiant> "if x is in an odd-numbered column then..."
15:52:44 <AnMaster> "subtract and branch unless positive" in OISC, said to be turing complete...
15:53:08 <Deewiant> I wonder if anything can compile to that instruction
15:53:20 <Deewiant> could then translate it to asm and see how fast stuff runs ;-)
15:53:49 <Deewiant> compile C to that, for instance
15:53:49 <AnMaster> well I bet x86 got something close ;)
15:54:22 <AnMaster> http://eigenratios.blogspot.com/2006/09/mark-ii-oisc-self-interpreter.html
15:54:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I don't think you can compile C easily, would be restricted, since C got stuff like IO and so
15:55:30 <pikhq> One could do a standalone implementation.
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16:29:22 <tusho> ERROR Your host is trying to (re)connect too fast -- throttled
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16:40:47 <AnMaster> tusho, well fix your connection then!
16:40:59 <tusho> nothing to do with my connection.
16:41:12 <AnMaster> tusho, stop quitting your client all the time then
16:41:28 <tusho> It wiped all my settings randomly and I had to test them, so shut up.
16:42:30 <AnMaster> tusho, sucky client that doe that
16:43:01 <tusho> AnMaster: no, it was my fault
16:43:12 <tusho> I killed it while it was writing to the prefs or something
16:43:13 <AnMaster> of course you could just restore from the daily backup of your home dir
16:43:24 <tusho> AnMaster: i can't afford a drive for backups
16:44:10 <AnMaster> tusho, tapes aren't that expensive
16:44:18 <AnMaster> but if you got no tape drive, true
16:44:20 <tusho> AnMaster: enjoy your 1970
16:44:38 <AnMaster> tusho, tapes last longer than cds or harddrives certainly
16:44:50 <tusho> hds last long enough for me to care about
16:49:45 <Sgeo> AnMaster, butbut.. they're affected by magnets and stuff. That scares me, tbh
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16:53:08 <AnMaster> but cds doesn't last very long
16:54:33 <Sgeo> Is there any way to shield tapes?
16:54:52 <AnMaster> well same way as you shield against any EMP I assume
16:56:05 <Sgeo> Is it worth using tape to backup a home system
16:58:04 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I had the luck of finding a tape drive cheaply, local school was throwing out old equipment, got it for probably 1/10 of what it was really worth
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18:55:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my FING is now updated, however I will probably not make a release this weekend
18:55:43 <AnMaster> unless you actually plan to update mycology results page
18:55:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, apart from FING, are there other changes?
18:56:56 <AnMaster> "2008–09–10 Mycology updates" on your website
18:57:23 <Deewiant> there is a changelog in the readme.txt, you know
18:58:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it contradicts your web page
18:58:39 <AnMaster> " * Mycology update, some bugfixes."
18:58:44 <AnMaster> 2008-09-10 - Made the check for wraparound with non-cardinal delta a bit
18:58:44 <AnMaster> stricter (instead of a delta of (12,0) it uses (13,2)).
18:58:57 <AnMaster> and the 2008-09-06 release is not mentioned on the website
18:59:02 <Deewiant> yeah, that's irrelevant and a bugfix
18:59:08 <Deewiant> there never was a 2008-09-06 release
18:59:18 <AnMaster> 2008-09-06 - Fixed a misspelled error message in mycouser.b98 for
18:59:19 <AnMaster> - Fixed a bug in 2k6 testing that led to an infinite loop.
18:59:21 <Deewiant> that's just when I made the changes
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19:00:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, have you seen that Mike made even more fingerprints
19:01:17 <Deewiant> something like that, I only glanced at it
19:01:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you plan to implement it?
19:01:37 <Deewiant> I have no idea what it contains, like said
19:01:47 <Deewiant> and right now I really don't care either :-P
19:02:04 <Deewiant> ah, that might almost be useful
19:02:37 <Deewiant> I wonder if he specified it either completely uselessly or so strictly that it's a pain to implement
19:02:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw if the mycology results page will be updated to include cfunge (as run on linux, as you said yourself) before the end of the weekend, a release will be made during Saturday, if it won't be updated, there will be no release
19:03:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah he haven't yet learnt the balance
19:03:31 <tusho> AnMaster is pioneering "software release by ransom"
19:03:40 <AnMaster> tusho, well someone has to be the first
19:03:48 <tusho> "Update the page by the weekend OR THE RELEASE GETS IT"
19:03:50 <Deewiant> except that I really don't care whether he releases or not :-P
19:04:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just I like to include more bug fixes before next release
19:04:17 <AnMaster> unless you actually plan to update that page
19:04:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or I will claim to be "mycology 2008-09-10 conforming"
19:05:02 * tusho claims to be 10 feet tall
19:05:24 <tusho> AnMaster: i pass as 10 feet tall too
19:05:31 <tusho> AnMaster: 10 feet in meters = 10 feet
19:05:44 <tusho> AnMaster: actually 3.04800 meters.
19:05:48 <Deewiant> that's a bit over or under 3 metres
19:05:50 * tusho claims to have worked that out in my head
19:06:04 <Deewiant> I just remember that one foot is around 30 cm
19:06:05 <tusho> AnMaster: i was crouching, you moron
19:06:25 <tusho> AnMaster: that's what i want you to think
19:06:35 <AnMaster> "ICAL"0x4943414cSome Intercal-like functions(RCS)
19:06:54 <Deewiant> I wonder if ais has an opinion on that ICAL, it's probably all wrong ;-)
19:07:11 <Deewiant> does it even have anything useful
19:07:36 <tusho> Deewiant: hi deewiant i am going to speck a fignerpting on irc ok??? then i will put it on the web, and you will implement it
19:07:38 <AnMaster> so lets see what ones are new, ARRY, BOOL, FOBJ, FPRT, ICAL, IMTH, RAND, SORT,
19:07:51 <Deewiant> tusho: ,,,,,,,,,,,
19:07:58 <tusho> Deewiant: ok,,,,,,here it is
19:08:12 <tusho> "BF": R ( c -- ) run brainfuck code
19:08:21 <tusho> Deewiant: hehehhehehehhee...
19:08:29 <AnMaster> that is plain idiotic, I mean those are not hard in pure befunge
19:08:45 <tusho> Deewiant: its a mystery,,ehehehehe.... it is the brainfuck code.......
19:09:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in FOBJ: "I 0gnirts referes to the funge file containing the code for the object"
19:09:20 <tusho> Deewiant: hello,,,,,,,how goes the implement
19:09:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes, FOBJ seems pretty messed up
19:10:13 <AnMaster> "Funge-space for objects is in Trefunge mode." <-- nice way to lock out for example CCBI and cfunge
19:10:22 <AnMaster> and efunge won't do tre-funge either
19:10:31 <tusho> don't blame him for your interp inferiorities
19:10:35 <tusho> Deewiant: will it do Nfunge
19:10:47 <tusho> Deewiant: will it do nfunge if i write a patc
19:11:08 <Deewiant> or, well, depends on the size of the patch ;-)
19:11:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I fail to see how these are object orientated really, where is the inheritance...
19:11:13 <Deewiant> it'd have to be pretty big :-P
19:11:22 <tusho> Deewiant: it'd be some commits
19:11:30 <tusho> AnMaster: object orientation!=classes
19:11:35 <tusho> it's probably prototypical
19:11:55 <tusho> if it lets you fondle an existing object, and clone an object, then it's prototypical
19:12:02 <Deewiant> it looks a lot like namespaces + functions only, actually
19:12:03 <Deewiant> tusho: http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#FOBJ
19:12:17 <AnMaster> http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#IMTH <-- now that is kind of stupid too, since the functionality is either simple in pure funge, (E for example), or available in other fingerprints
19:12:18 <tusho> Deewiant: that's retarded
19:12:38 <tusho> Deewiant: ok forget BF i am writing a better fingerprint
19:12:42 <tusho> called MKRL (Mike Riley)
19:12:48 <Deewiant> and I like that the specs talk about "message handlers" without saying at all what they are
19:13:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I won't implement any if these new ones I think. Yes I will probably do MVRS in efunge
19:13:46 <Deewiant> I probably won't implement anything completely pointless
19:14:28 <Deewiant> well that's certainly descriptive
19:14:34 <tusho> why are the 0x... things so long?
19:14:38 <AnMaster> well it seems pretty clear, except most doesn't make sense for funge
19:14:48 <tusho> but his are longer
19:14:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example, %zu would make no sense in funge
19:15:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: erm, "printf style" doesn't really say anything
19:15:15 <Deewiant> C/C++/Java/D/Haskell/other printf? which version?
19:15:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, obviously C is the default ;P
19:15:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and it's "style" anyway, could use D writef as well :-P
19:15:51 <Deewiant> tusho: and that can't be right
19:16:05 <tusho> Deewiant: 0x4A27F51 is right...
19:16:38 <AnMaster> tusho, you wouldn't have said that if I pointed out the error :P
19:16:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: i.e. it doesn't specify that it has to work like printf, only in the style of printf :-P
19:16:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah I see the issue yes
19:17:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which would allow pretty much anything, actually. :-P
19:17:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however I suspect trying that philosophical approach would make Mike ignore you ;P
19:17:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you or I should get ais to take a look at ICAL
19:17:59 <Deewiant> the single dimension stuff of ARRY is just a poorer form of JSTR
19:18:27 <AnMaster> "Addresses used by this extension are absolute, the storage offset does NOT apply to these functions."
19:18:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: haha, implement ARRY so that ABCDEF reflect and G pushes 0
19:18:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well certainly allowed as it seems, but no I won't
19:19:01 <Deewiant> "Negative array indexes are allowed "
19:19:04 <AnMaster> I won't implement any of these new ones
19:19:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume same as in C
19:19:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, may not be segfault, not if the system is running in a non-protected environment
19:19:38 <Deewiant> I'm fairly sure that's implementation-defined in C
19:20:00 <Deewiant> so, it's allowed to be implementation-defined? ;-)
19:20:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually, while that wasn't what I meant, it seems correct
19:20:14 <AnMaster> I meant that it is basically pointer access
19:20:44 <tusho> Deewiant: AnMaster: ok I made my first fingerprint
19:20:45 <AnMaster> a[x] == *(&a + x) (not always and not exactly, but you get my point)
19:20:45 <Deewiant> hmh, BOOL/IMTH/FIXP overlap a lot :-/
19:20:49 <tusho> http://tusho.net/mkry/
19:20:54 <tusho> please review & suggest & implement
19:21:37 <tusho> AnMaster: ehhehehehehehehehehehehehhe............
19:21:40 <Deewiant> tusho: why 0gnirts, pushing ",,,,...." would require a pop
19:21:55 <tusho> Deewiant: eehhehe,,,not sure....
19:22:25 <AnMaster> tusho, I may actually implement that, probably not, but I don't rule out the possibility
19:22:32 <tusho> Deewiant: ah what should i use intsead
19:22:37 <Deewiant> RAND is poorly defined, does it use a generator of its own or not
19:22:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well as I said above, IMTH is useless, since there are other fingerprints to do those things, or they are easy in pure funge
19:23:04 <Deewiant> tusho: well, just ( -- chars...) or something
19:23:12 <Deewiant> other than that RAND can be handy
19:23:23 <Deewiant> since if you need a value ? is a bit painful
19:23:37 <tusho> http://tusho.net/mkry/
19:23:47 <Deewiant> also, RAND doesn't really say anything about the qualities of the generator
19:23:48 <AnMaster> tusho, um "All pushes from 3 to 15."
19:24:10 <tusho> Deewiant: i know, crazy, i meant to update it without changing it
19:24:13 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes I love this parody :D
19:24:26 <AnMaster> tusho, just that 3..15 range changed
19:24:29 <Deewiant> is pseudorandom okay for RAND or not? doesn't say. do values need to be evenly distributed? doesn't say.
19:24:46 <tusho> so that ECED works
19:25:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'd say you should select by fair dice roll then hard code a lookup table
19:25:50 <tusho> what ridiculous thing to write next
19:26:01 <tusho> Deewiant: will you implement mkry
19:26:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed, I got no idea what those vectors mean
19:26:03 <Deewiant> that too, but wth are those arguments
19:26:10 <tusho> Deewiant: if i provide a file?
19:26:23 <AnMaster> tusho, probably not, but you could try implement it using mini-funge
19:26:32 <AnMaster> I think efunge may handle that
19:26:32 <Deewiant> tusho: I can provide you a file too! See http://www.google.com/index.html
19:26:39 <tusho> Deewiant: if i provide an implementation file
19:26:42 <AnMaster> it will implement dynafing from !Befugne then
19:27:06 <tusho> Deewiant: why not, it'd be a cp :P
19:27:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, I still plan my SOCK replacement suite, but I didn't receive any comments on it from you, I did send the mail to you
19:28:23 <tusho> Deewiant: i'd provide a patch
19:28:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, which means I don't have anything meaningful to say :-P
19:28:30 <Deewiant> tusho: so it's not just a cp ;-)
19:28:35 <tusho> Deewiant: ok, cp && patch
19:28:38 <tusho> is that acceptable? :P
19:28:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but do you like the idea or not?
19:29:01 <tusho> Deewiant: i'll fork ccbi if you don't
19:29:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I would like some input on the "auto handler" for "don't care what ip version"
19:29:17 <Deewiant> tusho: if I were you I'd just do the mini-funge impl :-P
19:29:30 <tusho> Deewiant: i don't know funge.
19:30:29 <tusho> "FRTH" 0x46525448 Some common forth [sic] commands
19:30:44 <Deewiant> that's not how forth is spelled
19:30:55 <tusho> Deewiant: thats how the language name is spelled...
19:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I said in the mail, the idea of an application in funge being able to use a generic interface for ipv4 and ipv6
19:31:15 <tusho> i'm case-insensitive
19:31:36 <tusho> i use a case-insensitive filesystem and such.
19:31:43 <tusho> and type in lowercase on irc
19:31:59 <Deewiant> Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse.." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse.."
19:32:16 <tusho> Deewiant: and those sentences are such common, everday occurences
19:32:21 <tusho> besides, i am a fan of innuendo.
19:32:37 <Deewiant> it's a reason for not always being case-insensitive
19:32:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so what input do you want on that
19:33:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what design would be good for that, yet allow separate ipv6 and ipv4 for those who wanted?
19:33:22 <tusho> Deewiant: i am always, always case-insensitive
19:33:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm pretty much lost there
19:34:17 <Deewiant> I don't know very much about network programming so I'm not exactly an authority on the topic
19:34:27 <AnMaster> should there be a SCKI for IPv4/6 with a flag for "don't care, ipv4, ipv6"
19:34:43 <Deewiant> or would it be possible to tag a socket with a flag
19:34:57 <Deewiant> and then just use the same interface always
19:35:16 <AnMaster> well the shared parts would have the same interface
19:35:19 <Deewiant> when you create a socket, specify a flag, like the current SOCK does, for whether it's IPv4/IPv6
19:35:38 <AnMaster> yes makes sense in a SCKI part
19:35:45 <AnMaster> since we need SCKU for unix sockets
19:36:10 <AnMaster> so one for core (NSCK), then SCKI for TCP/UDP + IP, and SCKU for unix sockets
19:36:29 <Deewiant> yeah, unix sockets mess everything up :-P
19:36:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to make stuff more portable it is separate
19:37:00 <Deewiant> if they didn't exist, it would be much simpler :-)
19:37:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you could choose not to implement SCKU
19:37:41 <Deewiant> you should leave it open anyway
19:37:59 <Deewiant> maybe add an instruction to query whether a certain flag combination (TCP/IPv4 for instance) is supported
19:38:09 <tusho> Deewiant: fingerprints/tusho/mkry.d GOOOOOOO
19:38:11 <AnMaster> http://rcfunge98.com/dyfp.f98 <-- hm can't find any details for that fingerprint?
19:38:15 <Deewiant> so that you know that creating a socket fails for that reason and not just randomly
19:38:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well ok it would be part of SCKI
19:39:16 <AnMaster> the core could have an instruction to list supported address family fingerprints
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19:40:17 <tusho> your fingerprint mechanism is confusing kekekekekekekke ^________^
19:40:19 <AnMaster> tusho, implement it in dynafing
19:40:31 <AnMaster> tusho, ah, you don't support "kekekekekekekke" in MKRY!
19:40:45 <AnMaster> or maybe that should be in TUSH?
19:40:48 <tusho> AnMaster: it is MKRY
19:44:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just got a good idea for a fingerprint, that is *truely* non-portable
19:44:52 <tusho> AnMaster: 'Spec: Be non-portable.'
19:45:08 <AnMaster> ERLANG (cells have to be larger than 32-bit, probably BIGNUM to fit the name)
19:45:18 <AnMaster> E evaluate 0"gnirts" as erlang
19:45:29 <tusho> AnMaster: total ripoff of my BF
19:45:31 <AnMaster> of course I won't implement such a thing in efunge
19:45:54 <AnMaster> tusho, point it is would require the interpreter to be written in erlang
19:46:07 <tusho> just run an erlang process in the background
19:46:15 <tusho> and send off the string
19:46:43 <tusho> AnMaster: it's still portable
19:46:58 <AnMaster> tusho, no, since it have to evaluate within the context of the interpreter
19:47:09 <tusho> AnMaster: the spec does not say that
19:47:11 <AnMaster> possibly affecting interpreter internals
19:47:18 <tusho> and that's easy too
19:47:19 <AnMaster> tusho, they do, but I wasn't finished with them
19:47:23 <tusho> write an interp bridge in erlang
19:47:29 <tusho> that just sends it back to your other-lang interp
19:47:33 <tusho> and changes the interp there
19:47:43 <AnMaster> tusho, could be hard if it is in C or C++ or whatever
19:48:25 * tusho points a gun at AnMaster's head
19:48:31 <tusho> implement it or BANG.
19:48:47 * AnMaster implements BANG to reflect on everything
19:48:55 <tusho> implement it or i will shoot you.
19:49:03 <AnMaster> tusho, sorry since BANG will reflect
19:49:12 <AnMaster> it would just bounce and hit yourself
19:49:38 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway no I won't ever implement it
19:49:51 <tusho> not even if i would kill you if you didn't?
19:50:18 <AnMaster> that would be an extremely silly action of you
19:50:34 <tusho> AnMaster: but if i did?
19:51:43 <AnMaster> anyway I haven't worked out how fingerprints should work in efunge yet
19:51:57 <tusho> AnMaster: so you value not implementing ERLANG over your life
19:56:28 <AnMaster> wonder if ais will be here tomorrow
19:56:52 <AnMaster> and I'm going to ignore you when you get too silly
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20:47:24 <oerjan> hey, i resemble that glob
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21:15:19 <oerjan> And then a miracle happens
21:17:23 <Deewiant> http://arcanux.org/lambdacats/impossible.jpg
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21:45:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | There are probably many..
21:46:33 <oerjan> There can be only one!
21:49:07 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThereCanBeOnlyOne (warning: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)
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22:10:19 <tusho> oerjan: is there a TerriblePun trope on tehre
22:17:31 <oerjan> not exactly, but try http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HurricaneOfPuns
22:17:59 <tusho> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.09.10
22:18:03 <tusho> slowest day in an awful long while
22:19:59 <oerjan> it was because the earth was destroyed
22:28:31 <oerjan> incidentally there was a 16 year old Indian girl who committed suicide when she heard about the LHC fears. I think she might be a good candidate for the Darwin award.
22:29:05 <Slereah> Only if the earth isn't destroyed :o
22:29:55 <tusho> i am a zombeeeeeeeeeee
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22:32:19 <fungot> tusho: i should also buy another notebook a 1,3 kg lightweight p3 samsung, 1 cm thick, 12" disp, complete with a tent rather than a primitive.
22:32:25 <tusho> Slereah: Shut up: You are dead. You cannot talk.
22:32:34 <fizzie> Heh, a laptop with a tent.
22:32:46 <tusho> fizzie: But no primitives.
22:32:49 <tusho> How does it run...?
22:32:58 <oerjan> tusho: you ate only his brain, no vital organs
22:33:35 <oerjan> i thought that was just zombie grammar
22:35:28 <oerjan> alternative theory: Slereah is speaking from inside your stomach
22:36:33 <oerjan> fungot: are you a markov bot?
22:36:34 <fungot> oerjan: it's the year 2006
22:37:04 <tusho> oerjan: no, we're not in some demented vore slashfiction
22:37:12 <tusho> Slereah is thoroughly dead and cannot speak.
22:37:22 <tusho> (I mean, I *hope* we're not in some demented vore slashfiction...)
22:37:29 <oerjan> third try: he's a ghost
22:37:42 <oerjan> i mean if there are zombies there can be ghosts
22:37:45 <Slereah> tusho : Do you have a boner
22:37:51 <tusho> Slereah: No, and you still cannot speak.
22:37:56 <tusho> You have not risen from the dead yet.
22:38:05 <oerjan> Slereah: Rise and shine
22:38:20 <tusho> oerjan: if he was a ghost then he wouldn't respond to pings
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00:04:38 <tusho> AND THEN! They saw Jorge wanting to be hardcore but his mom would't let him. Fact: hardcores bite people and Jorge had rabies. I'm also a rapper. In the flesh. (Flesh is tasty.) Soon, however, he became bored of this rampant cannibalism. He threw down his piece of man-thigh, and went to get a real job. Or so he hoped. But no, rather than what was expected... there was a centipede! Hundreds of feet long, it crawled on its belly before exploding violently. Thi
00:06:36 <tusho> Slereah: http://91.105.85.60:4567/
00:09:33 <oerjan> tusho: it got cut off after "violently. Thi"
00:09:49 <tusho> is caused an international incident between the cat and your anus. Then, Elliott realized that moar people In the Midnight Hour of the something which then one mored.
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01:00:47 <tusho> transformed into an acoustic guitar and got Ubuntu Linux But didn't understand it when he talked about the rabbit about his mom when not all that suddenly, he farted and the expelled gas exploded immediately afterwards, killing you. That is to say, not. But then, Then he pooped out a kitten. Ohh, those fuckign delicious kittens Mr. Clockhead decided to kill Mr. Blockhead. After quenching his bloodthirst, something truly special happened. Jibbedybob so the Lo
01:00:57 <tusho> ead. After quenching his bloodthirst, something truly special happened. Jibbedybob so the Loch Ness Monster decided to rape everyone. But Jibbedybob reveal himself to the man - the hot, sweaty man - SUDDENLY - all the sex was used up. So Jibbedybob bought some more at a convenience store. THE END
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01:06:40 <oerjan> now there's that Jibbedybob again
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01:24:50 <RodgerTheGreat> "Lisp programmer is an oxymoron. Once you learn lisp you never write any code every again, you move into academia and spend the rest of your life trying to hoodwink other people into thinking lisp isn't a pile of shit."
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02:06:06 <Sgeo> Any extreneous Sgeos are evil
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02:06:52 <oerjan> ah but which is the extreneous [sic] one?
02:07:34 * Sgeo glares at his evil underscore-bearing counterpart
02:09:00 <oerjan> http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;528456667
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03:45:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | even logspace..
04:16:09 <bsmntbombdood> it would be cool if the logs could be stored in log space
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05:03:32 <lament> bsmntbombdood: good one
06:04:42 <lament> keep only the last log(n) of n lines of logs. Throw out the rest; nobody reads logs that old, anyway.
06:10:24 <pikhq> I do upon rare occasion.
06:38:13 <bsmntbombdood> each log file is 60k, 4 years of logs, means 89702400 characters
06:47:44 <oklobol> i disagree. "not very useful" is all you need to know about esoteric languages
06:48:04 <oklobol> except i kinda messed my own joke up by saying that.
07:02:27 <lament> bsmntbombdood: we need to pick an appropriate base, of course.
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09:19:27 <AnMaster> last xkcd.... got no hover text...
09:45:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | like a modulo?.
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10:16:17 <fizzie> optbot: What's like a modulo?
10:16:18 <optbot> fizzie: I've decided type-level church numerals are far more fun.
10:16:47 <fizzie> optbot: That sounds sufficiently esoteric, yes.
10:16:48 <optbot> fizzie: so that they can be evaluated, in sequence
11:04:04 <AnMaster> is O(n^2) or O(n log n) worst?
11:05:48 <fizzie> n^2 is obviously worse than n log n.
11:05:53 <fizzie> Since n is worse than log n.
11:06:11 <fizzie> Asymptotically speaking, anyway.
11:08:41 <AnMaster> hm now what is the correct notation for "average" and "worst" cases
11:08:51 <AnMaster> it is something else than O really isn't it iirc?
11:10:36 <AnMaster> hm no, I guess I remembered wrong
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11:18:16 <AnMaster> hm... if you needed a good sorting algorithm, good worst case and good average case, what one would you select?
11:37:14 <Deewiant> or whatever your standard library offers
11:37:39 <AnMaster> well true, but qsort() is quicksort isn't it?
11:38:05 <Deewiant> it has a crap name, there's no reason why it has to be :-P
11:38:50 <Deewiant> at least that's std::sort in the SGI C++ standard library, and the standard sorter in tango (after I filed a bug about it :-P)
11:39:02 <AnMaster> however mergesort could take advantage of multi-core CPUs
11:39:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what was the standard sorter before?
11:40:30 <AnMaster> anyway what about mergesort? It would be easy to take advantage of multiple cpus, if you have two, then at the first split in half let each cpu do half of the work
11:41:13 <Deewiant> quicksort can be parallelized as easily as mergesort
11:41:38 <Deewiant> well, maybe not quite as easily, but easily anyway
11:46:04 <Deewiant> but in any case, I'd leave that to the stdlib
11:46:23 <Deewiant> and unless you're sorting something really big it doesn't matter anyway :-P
11:50:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or if you want a stable sort
11:51:19 <Deewiant> in that case as well I'd leave it to the stdlib :-P
11:51:36 <AnMaster> which may not always be the case
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11:51:55 <Deewiant> unfortunately some stdlibs are crap, yes
11:52:24 <AnMaster> but I was thinking about stand-alone C
11:52:50 <AnMaster> freestanding I believe the official name is
11:53:49 <AnMaster> (how do you know I'm not planning a cfunge-OS ;)
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12:41:36 <oerjan> it must be a side effect of the earth being destroyed
12:42:18 <AnMaster> yeah either case it is pretty odd
12:42:44 <tusho> another one didnd't have it at one point but then it got added in after people noticed
12:42:50 <AnMaster> tusho, didn't have it this morning
12:43:00 <tusho> AnMaster: that happens occasionally
12:43:26 <oerjan> or i have a browser error
12:43:35 <tusho> here, let's view source:
12:43:48 <tusho> <img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/further_boomerang_difficulties.png" title="An eternity later, the universe having turned out to have positive curvature and lots of mass, the boomerang hits him in the back of the head." alt="Further Boomerang Difficulties" /><br/>
12:43:52 <oerjan> i just checked xkcd, there is no hovertext
12:43:57 <tusho> <img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/further_boomerang_difficulties.png" title="An eternity later, the universe having turned out to have positive curvature and lots of mass, the boomerang hits him in the back of the head." alt="Further Boomerang Difficulties" /><br/>
12:45:35 <oerjan> <img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/further_boomerang_difficulties.png" title="" alt="Further Boomerang Difficulties" />
12:46:10 <oerjan> except i didn't visit xkcd earlier
12:48:18 <oerjan> that was weird, especially if AnMaster sees it too
12:48:37 <tusho> maybe _JSUT_ added
12:49:07 <oerjan> within 15 minutes? wow
12:49:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, there is hovertext there now
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12:49:27 <AnMaster> wasn't when I mentioned the issue though
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12:55:25 <tusho> itunes 8 looks neat-o
13:04:56 <oerjan> google doesn't do unit conversion with kalpas
13:08:31 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalpa_(time_unit)
13:09:01 <oerjan> mind you i looked it up afterward. i didn't know there were conflicting definitions...
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14:20:56 <tusho> heh, anyone who ever comments on a piece of FUD targeting apple to *factually correct them*, even if they don't use apple products, is immediately called an apple fanboy
14:21:08 <tusho> maybe i'll start blocking the comments
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15:45:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | exactly! omg we're like soulmates rofl!!! asl?.
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15:48:35 <fizzie> optbot: I like your topic.
15:48:36 <optbot> fizzie: just... minute enough to... draw a circlish thing?
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15:51:16 <ais523> yay, I even get an exclamation mark this time
15:51:34 * ais523 has spent most of today trying to port C-INTERCAL to autotools
15:51:46 <ais523> I have it building reliably now, but there are some things I want to change
15:51:58 <ais523> maybe even libtool while I'm at it
15:52:14 <AnMaster> mostly due to split oil output
15:52:21 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't like the way automake scatters all the temporary files in the root directory of the distribution
15:52:22 <tusho> ais523: why on earth would you want to use autotools
15:52:33 <AnMaster> ais523, ah well I do out of tree builds always
15:52:33 <ais523> and I handled the split oil output by writing it all as one rule by hand
15:52:44 <AnMaster> ais523, and you can move some stuff into subdirs
15:53:01 <ais523> AnMaster: that's not the problem, the problem is that some of the temporaries are distributed with the tarball
15:53:16 <AnMaster> for config.guess config.sub and so on
15:53:20 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, I knew about that one, hadn't used it yet but was planning to
15:53:34 <ais523> also C-INTERCAL doesn't need config.sub at the moment, although I've been modifying it for gcc-bf
15:53:49 <AnMaster> what exactly does config.sub do btw
15:54:10 <ais523> AnMaster: translates a short name like "i386" into a long name like "i386-pc-linux-gnu"
15:54:24 <ais523> also checks that the name is one that's recognised by some GNU software
15:54:28 <ais523> and of course bf isn't
15:54:32 <AnMaster> ais523, ah hm.... that file will be replaced by regeneration commands
15:54:38 <Deewiant> ais523: http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#ICAL
15:54:47 <ais523> Deewiant: that name sounds promising...
15:55:06 <Deewiant> just some intercal-esque stuff
15:55:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well is it correct, as in do like in intercal?
15:55:18 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but they took only the saner of the commands there
15:55:42 <tusho> AnMaster: singular they is correct.
15:55:47 <ais523> apart from "0R is not an error and will just continue without resuming", that is an error in ordinary INTERCAL
15:56:02 <ais523> and singular they is of disputed gramaticalness but I use it anyway
15:56:05 <AnMaster> ais523, something like: ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS = -I macros --install
15:56:26 <AnMaster> rather than at the end of aclocal.m4
15:56:29 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not that stuff I'm worried about, it's half-built parsers like parser.c and parser.h
15:56:41 <ais523> I have it confined to ick-0-29/temp in the old build system
15:56:46 <ais523> however, I have an insane solution
15:56:50 <tusho> ais523: yesterday me and Deewiant were poking fun at mikeriley's fingerprints which are clones of existing ones sans all the useful parts, and incredible ambiguiuty ("format string is printf style") so I made my first fingerprint: http://tusho.net/mkry/
15:57:01 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean that there are temporary files?
15:57:11 <AnMaster> what about them? I assume darcs got some ignore function?
15:57:11 <ais523> AnMaster: it's more like /var/cache
15:57:21 <ais523> and the issue is that they're supposed to be distributed
15:57:33 <ais523> in case the person at the other end doesn't have lex, or doesn't have yacc or equivalents
15:57:48 <Deewiant> tusho: the sillier thing about the clones is that the originals are his as well :-P
15:57:51 <ais523> both the old and the new build system handles that fine, I just don't like where the new build system puts them
15:58:08 <ais523> tusho: that fingerprint reminds me of ESME
15:58:10 <tusho> Deewiant: soon I shall write MIKR!
15:58:26 <tusho> ais523: the actual spec is that C pushes 3 to 15 (random) ','s
15:58:29 <tusho> D the same but with '.'
15:58:38 <tusho> and E the same but with randomly alternating 'e' and 'h'
15:58:45 <tusho> ais523: eheheheheheheehhe,,,,,not sure.......
15:58:50 <ais523> most fingerprints actually have some sort of purpose...
15:58:52 <tusho> the clue is in the name :-)
15:58:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it would put them in build tree I assume?
15:59:06 <AnMaster> ais523, which seems sane to me
15:59:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, the problem is it puts them in the root of the build tree
15:59:11 <ais523> in the build tree is sane
15:59:18 <ais523> in root isn't, because they get distributed with the package
15:59:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess you don't use recursive make (and yes I prefer non-recursive too)
15:59:36 <ais523> so my insane solution is to put Makefile.am in a subdirectory of its own
15:59:53 <ais523> AnMaster: I prefer non-recursive, and recursive make doesn't even really make sense with C-INTERCAL
16:00:05 <ais523> because most of the targets share most of the object files
16:00:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume you do out of tree build the same way as "normal" automake-using projects do?
16:00:16 <ais523> so there's nothing to recurse over
16:00:26 <ais523> AnMaster: configure out of tree and it builds out of tre
16:00:33 <ais523> which is just how it normally works
16:00:56 <AnMaster> or even put the build dir elsewhere
16:01:19 <ais523> I have the build dir alongside the source dir for testing
16:01:25 <ais523> so it's ../newbuild/configure
16:01:53 <ais523> where newbuild in my filesystem = ick-0-29 in everyone else's
16:02:11 <ais523> also I changed the filenames away from DOSish to some extent, so they don't look DOSish any more
16:02:25 <tusho> ais523: but it still works on DOS, right?
16:02:27 <ais523> some of them are even not 8.3, but they truncate to 8.3 in a way that gives unique answers
16:02:34 <ais523> tusho: haven't tested, if it doesn't I'll change it until it does
16:03:37 <AnMaster> <ais523> some of them are even not 8.3, but they truncate to 8.3 in a way that gives unique answers <--- heheh, such an intercal-ish thing to do :D
16:04:15 <AnMaster> ais523, how did you handle the multiple oil output files?
16:04:33 <ais523> AnMaster: encapsulated them all in one target that produces a .a as its output
16:04:38 <ais523> marked noinst, so it's only used during the build
16:04:45 <ais523> and I wrote that target by hand
16:05:24 <AnMaster> ais523, however will this work with LLVM I wonder. I couldn't get ick to work properly with llvm if the compiler itself was compiled with llvm
16:05:38 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know how to get autotools to use the host CC for some compilation and the target CC for others when cross-compiling
16:05:41 <AnMaster> the issue was somehow that the installed libick.a and such were broken
16:06:00 <ais523> both the old and new build systems almost work when cross-compiling, except that it compiles oil.y for the target not the host and thus can't generate the oil output files
16:06:09 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, haven't really needed to compile stuff that is run during build time
16:06:29 <AnMaster> but I'm quite sure it is possible
16:06:32 <ais523> no, apparently neither have they
16:06:36 <ais523> I know it's possible because gcc does it
16:06:48 <AnMaster> but gcc even use it's own version of libtool iirc
16:07:08 <ais523> well I'm not using libtool yet, but I may do at some point, it makes sense for libick.a to really be libick.so
16:07:32 <AnMaster> there could be issues with .so
16:07:40 <ais523> and yes, I know there are issues with .so
16:07:43 <ais523> I even know what some of them are
16:08:03 <AnMaster> basically: 1) if installed to prefix, the library need to be found at runtime
16:08:13 <AnMaster> 2) the nasty bit is where symbols bind
16:08:32 <ais523> 1) is pretty nasty, ldd is unlikely to know about where to look for INTERCAL symbols
16:08:49 <AnMaster> if a symbol name is used in several *.so
16:09:04 <ais523> and I can't just use my amazing findandfopen function (designed to make sure that there is a skeleton in the closet no matter how badly the user tries to screw up the installation)
16:09:21 <ais523> AnMaster: well all the symbol names are mangled with ick_ in C-INTERCAL already
16:09:21 <AnMaster> any call from inside *any* of those .so that define it will refer to a single one of the functions
16:09:38 <ais523> I used nm to check what they all were
16:09:46 <AnMaster> ais523, also that overhead of looking up symbols in the global symbol table.... well
16:09:48 <ais523> so I didn't impinge on user namespace
16:09:59 <AnMaster> you can get around that somewhat with GNU LD
16:10:10 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't particularly worry about the overhead given how ridiculously slow INTERCAL programs are likely to be anyway
16:11:05 <ais523> I'm most worried about ABI changes
16:11:46 <ais523> that's what landed Windows into a whole lot of trouble with its DLLs, to be precise their installers tended to bundle the DLL with the program and often overwrote newer versions with older by mistake
16:11:50 <ais523> even deliberately sometimes...
16:11:57 <AnMaster> ais523, since I install ick into ~/local/ick
16:12:07 <ais523> a good package manager can solve that, not everyone has access to one of those though
16:12:09 <AnMaster> the library search path is an issue for me
16:12:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I wouldn't install a darcs version outside my home dir
16:12:42 <ais523> the darcs versions are not guaranteed to work or even make any kind of sense
16:12:58 <ais523> anyway, I'd better get around to applying that IFFI patch before you think to check...
16:13:29 <AnMaster> /usr is reserved for package manager, /usr/local I don't use, since finding what file comes from what program would be painful
16:13:57 <AnMaster> /opt is also for package manager, but I may use it if I have to, since you can do one directory for the program that way, but it has the downside of library search path again
16:13:58 <ais523> I use sufficiently few programs that I have /usr/local organised in my head
16:14:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I do use few such programs, but they are some that spread out lots and lots of files in the lib and share dirs
16:15:15 <AnMaster> 80 files in ~/local/flightgear-osg/lib
16:15:56 <AnMaster> thankfully those happen to have a sane naming scheme
16:16:06 <ais523> C-INTERCAL installs two files in prefix/bin, some libraries with obvious names in prefix/lib, man and info in the correct places in prefix/share, and the data files and include files are in a subdirectory specific to ick
16:16:15 <ais523> so it doesn't really get in the way at all
16:16:16 <AnMaster> libosg* libplib* libsg* libOpenThreads.so.*
16:17:05 <AnMaster> ais523, well you use automake to install now or?
16:17:17 <ais523> AnMaster: still experimental, I'm planning to use that eventually though
16:17:37 <AnMaster> ~/local/llvm/lib, now that contains a special version of gcc in it
16:17:43 <AnMaster> no way I would want that in /usr/local
16:17:55 <ais523> what if it was called llvm-gcc?
16:18:05 <AnMaster> well yes it is, but there is ~/local/llvm/lib/gcc
16:18:15 <ais523> I'm still struggling with PATH problems with gcc-bf as it is
16:18:19 <AnMaster> ~/local/llvm/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.2.1/
16:18:36 <ais523> it wants to install everything as bf-gcc, bf-ar, etc. in /usr/bin or /usr/local/bin
16:18:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well the binaries are prefixed with llvm-
16:18:53 <AnMaster> just I don't like the mixed mess of all these in one place
16:18:59 <ais523> yes, I'm using the same trick, fake /bin directory in the path for some things
16:19:04 <AnMaster> uninstalling one or upgrading one would be PAINFUL
16:19:33 <ais523> for other things I rely on the fact that if you tell gcc where it will be installed before you install it, then you compile and install it and access it with an absolute path, it can find ld and so on by itself
16:19:33 <AnMaster> what do you mean with fake bin?
16:19:41 <ais523> AnMaster: a directory on the path holding binaries
16:19:47 <ais523> for installing binaries into
16:20:03 <AnMaster> well I always install with --prefix so I can keep track of them
16:20:17 <AnMaster> and if I find it useful I may put it in the PATH
16:20:55 <ais523> I aim to get C-INTERCAL working with no support from the PATH
16:20:59 <AnMaster> for example for flightgear that I mentioned above I got a complex wrapper script to construct command line arguments
16:21:01 <AnMaster> $ ~/bin/run-fgfs --aircraft=lightning
16:21:01 <AnMaster> Final command line: --multiplay=out,10,mpserver06.flightgear.org,5000 --multiplay=in,10,192.168.0.64,5000 --enable-fuel-freeze --disable-auto-coordination --disable-real-weather-fetch --disable-game-mode --prop:sim/traffic-manager/enabled=0 --prop:/sim/sound/voices/enabled=true --aircraft=lightning
16:21:03 <ais523> even without support from make install, on occasion
16:21:37 <AnMaster> and then stuff like -w to make it -enable-real-weather-fetch and so on
16:21:51 <AnMaster> and it also sets various env variables
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16:46:35 <tusho> ais523: give me a crazy esolang idea.
16:46:41 <tusho> or just esoteric in general
16:47:04 <ais523> tusho: trying to think of one
16:47:11 <ais523> I had one a while ago and forgot it, which is annoying
16:47:31 <ais523> it's a pair of languages with very similar syntax
16:47:38 <ais523> all programs have to be a polyglot in both languages
16:47:48 <ais523> and the output of one program is piped to the input of the other
16:47:57 <ais523> optionally with a third program in between
16:48:05 <ais523> and the two programs are opposites in a sense
16:49:14 <tusho> that's interesting but i'm not sure how you'd go about it
16:49:17 <ais523> programming gcc is like that
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16:51:01 <ais523> the .md file is a polyglot between a file that translates GIMPLE to RTL and a file that translates RTL to asm
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16:51:56 <ais523> made out of lots of commands that contain the standard pattern that comes out from the GIMPLE, the RTL, and the asm all in one command
16:52:17 <ais523> with various things you can tweak all over the place to get the two halves to act differently
16:55:27 <tusho> Hooray. #web is run by a power-mad retard.
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16:56:55 <tusho> The op got angry at a guy for no reason, I pointed out an error in his reasoning, he responded with the same reasons and said 'got it?', I told him that his reasons were still wrong for the reasons I said, he opped himself and said 'GOT IT?', I told him that blindly asserting reasons while ignoring rebuttals and then threatening those who take issue with them is not acceptable and he could ban me if he wished, so he did, and says it's for 24 hours.
16:57:03 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
16:57:24 <ais523> sounds pretty general...
16:57:54 <tusho> it's web *development*
16:57:57 <tusho> still general, but less so
16:58:53 <ais523> I don't suppose it's owned by the inventor of the Web?
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16:59:34 <tusho> No. I think it's correct, actually.
16:59:43 <tusho> It's only for actual tangible things that the ## thing applies, I think.
16:59:51 <ais523> I suppose so, something that's so common it doesn't need a ##
16:59:59 <ais523> I wonder who invented esolangs?
17:00:00 <tusho> (So I guess we should actually be on #nomic...)
17:00:18 <ais523> and no, it's pretty clear that Nomic was invented by someone in particular
17:00:24 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:00:30 <ais523> and most discussions of Nomic reference Suber sometime
17:00:51 <tusho> ais523: it's not a tangible thing,t hough
17:01:00 <tusho> "windows" is an actual product, a thing, an entity
17:01:06 <tusho> therefore, since the channel is not official it is ##windows
17:01:09 <tusho> but 'esoteric', 'web', 'nomic'
17:02:53 <tusho> speaking of annoyances that are prominent in channels
17:02:56 <tusho> does ##c still have poppavic?
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17:09:21 <tusho> ais523: i have an eso project for you
17:09:36 <ais523> tusho: I have too many at the moment, but go on
17:09:43 <tusho> find out what system calls and stuff emacs uses, and implement them, and get a tty working etc. then, well, just boot emacs
17:09:51 <tusho> essentially, write the least possible kernel that will run emacs
17:10:11 <ais523> tusho: it can be run on DOS, and that's pretty minimal
17:10:21 <tusho> ais523: yes, but it still has tons of unneeded stuff
17:10:26 <tusho> all this OS would need to do is run one program at kernel level
17:10:28 <ais523> I wonder if it runs on DOS 1?
17:10:32 <ais523> that doesn't even have directories
17:12:27 <ais523> well gcc_bf only has 2 syscalls
17:12:37 <ais523> I wonder if I could get emacs running on that?
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17:18:46 <Slereah> Shit. There it goes again.
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17:22:52 <ais523> it's almost as though I'm competing with Slereah to see who has the least reliable connection
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17:48:10 <AnMaster> Slereah, what were you shouting about before?
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18:01:11 <tusho> ais523 has shouted?
18:01:35 <tusho> AnMaster: Slereah, what were you shouting about before?
18:01:40 <tusho> your quit line was above it
18:01:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | But it's not implementable, usable, interesting, or hard, or anything really.
18:02:12 <optbot> ais523: maybe it'd be clearer in java
18:02:21 <optbot> ais523: I was working on optimising the C-from-Underload code
18:02:37 <ais523> hmm... that must have been either me or tusho, I suspect tusho
18:02:50 <tusho> that's not how i type
18:03:10 <tusho> ais523: the current topic is mine
18:03:18 <tusho> commenting on asie's stupid "-1 instruction set idea"
18:03:24 <tusho> (every instruction except anything that makes the machine halt)
18:03:41 <tusho> ais523: 08.01.16:07:50:59 <ais523> I was working on optimising the C-from-Underload code
18:04:03 <ais523> let's play guess-the-optbot-utterance!
18:04:04 <optbot> ais523: The same applies to the vast majority of command-line UNIX, to be honest. . .
18:04:18 <ais523> hmm... not sure, I don't know who in here types ... like that
18:04:27 <tusho> always puts spaces in
18:04:34 <tusho> and uses correct grammar
18:07:52 <ais523> tusho: have you seen dogface around recently?
18:08:02 <tusho> ais523: dogface is ihope
18:08:06 <tusho> not apart from ##nomic
18:08:10 <ais523> I was using the new name
18:08:13 <tusho> he only seems to join certain channels and only for a tiny time
18:08:15 <tusho> ais523: no, he's ihope these days
18:08:32 <tusho> he was DogFace or DogKing or something in sine when i first went there
18:08:36 <tusho> so i guess he just has a lot of nicks
18:14:46 <ais523> not very much at the moment, I'm working on other things
18:14:52 <ais523> which I have talked about at length in this channel already
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18:18:12 <tusho> 11:54:16 <ehird`> and your - is I(n)
18:18:14 <tusho> what does that mean
18:18:26 <ais523> could have been a typo for O(n)
18:18:35 <ais523> which is pretty bad for subtract/decrement
18:18:40 <ais523> but typical in esoteric functional languages
18:29:15 <tusho> i still want http://xn--fvg8298f9da.xn--ii7c.org/
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18:33:50 <ais523> tusho: is that Punycode?
18:33:53 <asiekierka> oh, and hello, tusho, i heard you aged to 30 all of a sudden
18:34:07 <tusho> ais523: yes, for a thing that looks like ,[.,]
18:34:13 <tusho> specifically ,[ as a subdomain of ,]
18:34:15 <tusho> but not those exact chars ofc
18:34:33 <tusho> asiekierka: why not
18:34:48 <ais523> tusho: tbh neither do I, what with you claiming it was your birthday recently...
18:34:50 <asiekierka> Because you wouldn't be at this level of knowledge right now
18:34:54 <tusho> ais523: that's true.
18:35:02 <tusho> asiekierka: stop being a moron, there's been a video of my posted here
18:35:12 <tusho> I'll take a picture right now
18:35:17 <ais523> asiekierka: that might be illegal, you know
18:35:31 <ais523> not so sure about the UL
18:35:43 <tusho> coppa says that asking for personal information of someone you believe to be a minor is illegal
18:36:04 <tusho> you're on US servers
18:36:20 <ais523> [17:49] [MOTD] - By registering your nickname with Nickserv you agree that you
18:36:20 <ais523> [17:49] [MOTD] - are 13 years of age, or older. For more information about the
18:36:20 <ais523> [17:49] [MOTD] - Children's Online Privacy Protection Act please see their
18:36:20 <ais523> [17:49] [MOTD] - website at (http://www.coppa.org).
18:36:43 <ais523> hmm... does anybody bother to read the Freenode on-server-join spam?
18:36:45 -!- asiekierka has quit (Client Quit).
18:36:51 <tusho> lol, asie just left because he's under 13
18:37:03 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:37:43 <tusho> I had my birthday on August 22nd.
18:38:00 <tusho> I flagrantly violated COPPA daily.
18:38:25 <tusho> That is not a sentence.
18:38:42 <tusho> ais523: could you interpret his sentences for me
18:38:49 <tusho> i understand about half of them
18:39:03 <ais523> tusho: possibly, but I don't want to expend the brainpower. fungot, say something more intelligible, please!
18:39:04 <fungot> ais523: yome i'm not sure if it'll run on os 9. there's a //great// system service and daemon system.
18:39:25 <tusho> ais523: not even asiekierka could top fungot
18:39:25 <fungot> tusho: cl doesn't too much what? how?
18:39:32 <asiekierka> you want me to get out of this place, because i'm illegal in the US
18:39:42 <tusho> i never said that.
18:39:45 <ais523> we just want you to stay on-topic
18:39:57 <tusho> ais523: actually i don't care about him staying on-topic
18:39:58 <ais523> rather than steer onto conversations that have lead to flamewars or similar in the past
18:40:04 <ais523> off-topic's fine as long as it isn't contentious
18:40:08 <tusho> I care about him not saying random crap and attributing it to people who never said anything like that
18:40:09 <ais523> asiekierka: see the topic
18:40:18 <tusho> and then flooding the place
18:40:32 <asiekierka> Just replace "But it's" with "Asiekierka is"
18:40:45 <ais523> we have a random topicbot here
18:40:47 <optbot> ais523: but it wouldn't work for bf, so it's probably not very interesting
18:40:53 <tusho> having spammed "optbot!" for hours on end
18:40:54 <optbot> tusho: too many typos spoil the broth
18:40:56 <optbot> ais523: })}) <-- I like this language already -->
18:40:57 <optbot> fungot: (at least while freeing)
18:40:58 <fungot> optbot: i think distance should be measure in light years. well, maybe
18:40:59 <optbot> fungot: . . . Unless the size of each variable is unlimited or something.
18:40:59 <tusho> until we yelled at him to stop
18:40:59 <fungot> optbot: even better if there's a srfi for it? :(
18:41:00 <optbot> fungot: please paste another one!
18:41:01 <fungot> optbot: once you do check syntax, you have
18:41:02 <optbot> asiekierka: and it's only like 30 lines
18:41:02 <fungot> optbot: except for the author of cobol female/ cow/ tip"
18:41:08 <ais523> <optbot> fungot: please paste another one!
18:41:09 <fungot> ais523: this is the ( infinite) and tried to deactivate you
18:41:09 <optbot> ais523: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
18:41:18 <optbot> asiekierka: Rails adds untold horror to an already hideous language
18:41:23 <tusho> <fungot> ais523: this is the ( infinite) and tried to deactivate you
18:41:24 <tusho> <optbot> ais523: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
18:41:24 <optbot> tusho: Wait a minute...
18:41:24 <fungot> tusho: please someone send me an e-mail?
18:41:26 <optbot> asiekierka: There's probably a term for it already, but mine works.
18:41:36 <ais523> <fungot> optbot: except for the author of cobol female/ cow/ tip" <--- that's quite worrying
18:41:36 <fungot> ais523: i don't think he's really an fnord)
18:41:43 <optbot> asiekierka: and distinguish them both?
18:41:48 <optbot> asiekierka: U+0145 is Ņ, "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER N WITH CEDILLA".
18:41:59 <ais523> optbot: ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba...
18:42:00 <optbot> ais523: The girl doesn't look too thrilled
18:42:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | THAT'S LIKE INSULTING GOOGLE!!!!!.
18:42:06 <asiekierka> xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:43:18 <asiekierka> AsieSat, or ASSat for short. Yeah, i see the joke
18:43:31 * ais523 tries to guess who said the topic
18:43:36 <ais523> I think the context was a flamewar
18:43:41 <ais523> possibly between rival OSs
18:43:46 <ais523> and someone decided to parody it
18:44:09 <asiekierka> SOMEONE RUN A SEARCH ON #ESOTERIC LOGS!!!!!
18:44:20 <tusho> asiekierka. you have just flooded the channel with like 100 pointless chat with optbot
18:44:21 <optbot> tusho: that website seems to work fine for me in w3m
18:44:27 <tusho> what were we just not telling you to do?
18:44:57 <asiekierka> I just wanted to get out an answer from him
18:45:20 <tusho> asiekierka: it's incredibly annoying for everyone else, though
18:45:33 <optbot> asiekierka: 'Trivial'.
18:45:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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18:48:43 * asiekierka goes to the old and dusty switch room from his previous roleplay
18:49:02 <asiekierka> {{Remember that? That one in a black box and with cubes and a universe-modifying C64?}}
18:49:38 <tusho> asiekierka: oh, you're hijacking #esoteric again for that IRC RPG that nobody wants to play?
18:50:43 <tusho> ais523: tell him to stop
18:50:46 <asiekierka> THE MAN FORC---Nothing, nothing, blowing out dust
18:50:48 <tusho> he never listens to me
18:50:54 <ais523> lament: tell asiekierka to stop
18:51:27 <asiekierka> {as lament} tusho: tell asiekierka to stop
18:51:48 <tusho> it's ok to be silly but you're just being annoying. :|
18:52:08 <tusho> smiley faces with ( in them don't change that
18:53:10 <tusho> asiekierka: i'm only mean beacuse you've done it so many times
18:53:18 <tusho> and however many times you're told that you're being annoying you just keep doing it
18:54:05 <tusho> asiekierka: notepad.
18:54:15 <asiekierka> There's no multiplayer notepad, is there
18:54:16 <tusho> find someone who actually wants to.
18:55:08 <ais523> there are multiple multiplayer notepads around I expect
18:55:22 <tusho> asiekierka: i don't know! this isn't #social-skills
18:55:30 <tusho> asiekierka: #defocus?
18:55:38 <tusho> that's freenode's general social channel. find someone there.
18:55:41 <ais523> tusho: suggesting #defocus was evil
18:55:50 <tusho> ais523: at least he'll bother them, not us
18:55:53 <tusho> and most of the stuff in there is tripe anyway
18:56:50 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:57:00 <tusho> he's going to come back very very soon
18:57:08 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:57:08 <tusho> and start this whole annoyance-unhappy-quit cycle again
18:58:29 <AnMaster> <fungot> ais523: yome i'm not sure if it'll run on os 9. there's a //great// system service and daemon system. <-- hahaha
18:58:29 <fungot> AnMaster: as it ought to be
18:58:54 <tusho> where is oklopol when you need him
18:59:14 <tusho> AnMaster: amiga didn't have that either
18:59:16 <AnMaster> what you had were not really DOS TSR but almost as bad
18:59:28 <AnMaster> tusho, sure, back when it was modern
18:59:57 <AnMaster> or rather, random programs crashed and made the OS crash daily
19:00:05 <fizzie> yome is just a person on freenode/#scheme.
19:00:32 <tusho> ais523: i have a sort of database idea that would work well for things like the counter log
19:00:42 <tusho> sort of "inverted db"
19:01:29 <tusho> if you have the columns A,B,C and D
19:01:39 <tusho> {key: (A,B,C,D), ...}
19:01:50 <tusho> {key:A,...} {key:B,...} etc
19:01:58 <tusho> so you can look things up by anything
19:02:08 <ais523> that's just indexes, isn't it?
19:02:11 <tusho> and reconstruct with (astore[key],bstore[key]...)
19:02:14 <tusho> but you have no master copy
19:02:17 <tusho> everything is in the index
19:02:23 <tusho> i'll give an example
19:02:35 <tusho> id is the internal row identifier
19:02:38 <tusho> probably just a big int
19:02:42 <tusho> and we have the columns
19:03:22 <tusho> foo_store = {foo: [id]}; bar_store = {bar: [id]}
19:03:54 <AnMaster> as in across most *nix + windows
19:03:56 <tusho> but not native everywhere
19:03:59 <tusho> and ugly most places
19:04:12 <tusho> AnMaster: no, on windows it looks fine
19:04:16 <tusho> and on os x it is kind of ok
19:04:23 <tusho> on OS X it's like a retard tried to make an OS X interface
19:04:26 <tusho> wrong fonts, input fields are wrong, etc
19:04:28 <AnMaster> and isn't tk related to tcl in some way?
19:04:54 <AnMaster> so how comes it is used outside TCL?
19:05:07 <AnMaster> for example there is TK for Perl iirc, and even for python I think?
19:05:48 <tusho> because it works and is easy to us.
19:06:04 <AnMaster> I mean there is GTK, QT, wx, and a heap of other ones
19:06:18 <tusho> but they are difficult to use
19:06:38 <tusho> gtk, qt, wx, they are all a right pain to use
19:06:44 <tusho> you can get a hello world in tk in 3 lines of simple code
19:07:16 <tusho> package require Tk
19:07:16 <tusho> button .hello -text "Hello, World!" -command { exit }
19:07:23 <tusho> you click the button and it exits
19:07:31 <tusho> and the apis in other languages are identical
19:07:35 <AnMaster> sure it is easy to use from tcl
19:07:48 <AnMaster> well can you avoid including tcl at all then?
19:08:01 <tusho> AnMaster: no, the other languages apis just call the tcl functions
19:08:06 <tusho> and tcl is tiny-footprint
19:08:08 <AnMaster> tusho, so they need tcl installed?
19:08:17 <tusho> AnMaster: tcl and tk are the same package in a lot of distros
19:08:50 <tusho> tk looks good on windows
19:08:53 <tusho> it looks pretty much native
19:08:58 <tusho> apart from, again, input fields
19:09:08 <tusho> but yeah, while tk is fine on os x, i could easily spot a tk from a nontk app
19:09:14 <tusho> and on x11...bwaahhahahaha
19:09:17 <tusho> there is a theme engine for tk
19:09:20 <tusho> that makes it look OK on x11
19:09:25 <ais523> tusho: just like you can spot a Java GUI application a mile off?
19:09:32 <tusho> ais523: not on OS X
19:09:32 <ais523> at least if Swing-based?
19:09:34 <tusho> it uses native controls
19:09:43 <ais523> but doesn't that defeat the point of Swing
19:09:49 <AnMaster> well QT and GTK looks good on X
19:09:53 <tusho> i'm not complaining though
19:09:56 <tusho> apple did it, i think
19:10:24 <tusho> java apps are a pleasure to use on os x
19:11:00 <AnMaster> at least wings use some other GUI, home made I think
19:11:22 <AnMaster> and way way less messy than the custom style blender use
19:11:39 <AnMaster> (wings is a 3D modeller in erlang, in case you wonder)
19:11:49 <AnMaster> (rather good for polygon modelling)
19:11:57 <tusho> AnMaster: good thing you told us that
19:12:02 <tusho> we'd only heard it 30 times
19:12:07 <tusho> it's starting to sink in now
19:12:44 <AnMaster> ooooh I just have to link tusho to this :D
19:12:56 <AnMaster> http://www.erlang.org/doc/efficiency_guide/part_frame.html
19:13:09 <tusho> shut the fuck up AnMaster
19:13:19 <tusho> there is a difference between carefully optimizing operations that need it
19:13:27 <tusho> and making your code fucking unreadable and shit for no reason
19:13:31 <tusho> apart from 0.000001ms
19:13:47 <AnMaster> it got a high comment ratio according to ohloh
19:14:02 <AnMaster> tusho, I think your code tends to be unreadable
19:14:17 <tusho> AnMaster: i'd like to point out that i don't give a shit and you keep bringing up this flamewar
19:14:59 <tusho> <AnMaster> ooooh I just have to link tusho to this :D
19:15:19 <tusho> AnMaster: yes. and then i dropped it because it is pointless having any sort of discussion with you
19:15:28 <tusho> and now you keep. fucking. dragging. it. back. up. and. pissing. me. off.
19:16:43 <AnMaster> well efunge isn't over-optimised, I did some optimising, but only after trying to run the game of life in b93 under it. Then I used a profiler to find out what made it so slow (took like 20 seconds for each generation, while ccbi took about 1/3 or so, and cfunge 1/10)
19:16:54 <AnMaster> then I optimised that, so it is around 1 second per generation
19:17:03 <AnMaster> by replacing with a more efficient funge space
19:17:04 <tusho> AnMaster: hello, you missed the part where I said "i don't give a shit" and "stop bringing it up"
19:19:22 <tusho> ais523: hm, do you have /usr/bin/command there?
19:19:33 <tusho> it seems to be usable in place of the /usr/bin/env trick except it's actually designed for that
19:19:36 <tusho> dunno how widespread it is, though
19:20:08 <AnMaster> however the is a shell builtin in bash called command
19:20:38 <AnMaster> command: command [-pVv] command [arg ...]
19:20:38 <AnMaster> Runs COMMAND with ARGS ignoring shell functions. If you have a shell
19:20:38 <AnMaster> function called `ls', and you wish to call the command `ls',....
19:20:47 <AnMaster> tusho, if that is what you meant?
19:20:53 <tusho> yes, but that's a shell builtin
19:20:56 <tusho> you can't use that in a shebang
19:20:57 <AnMaster> seems to be posix standard too
19:21:43 <AnMaster> Since command is a regular built-in utility it is always found prior to the PATH search.
19:21:56 <AnMaster> so POSIX seems to say it should be built into shell
19:21:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:22:52 <AnMaster> tusho, what are you planning to do?
19:22:56 <AnMaster> if you want to locate bash try
19:23:07 <tusho> AnMaster: i'm not an idiot
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19:23:14 <tusho> tusho: ais523: hm, do you have /usr/bin/command there?
19:23:15 <tusho> [19:19] ais523: let me check
19:23:15 <tusho> [19:19] tusho: it seems to be usable in place of the /usr/bin/env trick except it's actually designed for that
19:23:21 <tusho> i was just curious
19:25:46 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
19:25:48 <AnMaster> ah posix doesn't say it *have* to be a built in
19:25:57 <AnMaster> but that it will probably be implemented as that
19:26:17 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/o0h09q99.html
19:28:09 <tusho> http://www.sexwithcars.org/ <- A forum for people who have sex with cars. I don't know either.
19:28:24 <ais523> tusho: why paste that here?
19:28:39 <tusho> ais523: i found a link to it and thought it sufficiently esoteric in an amusing way
19:34:57 <oerjan> http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html
19:35:36 <ais523> oerjan: are those going to spot the black hole in realtime?
19:36:18 <tusho> ais523: no, you'll be able to watch them to see if the universe has exploded or not
19:36:36 <tusho> now that is amusing
19:37:29 <oerjan> (found it on the Irregular Webcomic forum)
19:47:21 <oerjan> these are apparently real (and so, boring): http://www.lhc.ac.uk/web-cams.html
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19:48:51 <tusho> oerjan: yeah those are boring
19:49:38 <oerjan> although one of them was obviously used to generate the upper part of the first link
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20:49:34 <CO2Games> I fucking hate shitting because I have to plunge the toilet every time
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21:07:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't it in the same family as Haskell, both share ML as ancestor iirc
21:07:19 <AnMaster> but yeah that one is uggly too
21:08:53 <Deewiant> no, ML isn't Haskell's ancestor
21:09:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the syntax looks similar certainly
21:09:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:09:46 <Deewiant> or depends on what you mean of course: they're both functional and ML is older than Haskell so there was probably some influence :-P
21:09:58 <Deewiant> Haskell is much prettier than ML IMO
21:10:05 <oerjan> the polymorphic type system was certainly introduced in ML
21:10:06 <Deewiant> or maybe I've only seen crap ML code
21:10:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I mean, they share the look of unreadable and using | in odd ways,
21:10:41 <oerjan> certainly there are many inspirations
21:11:11 <Deewiant> Haskell, along with Lisp, has the most readable code syntax-wise IMO :-P
21:11:23 <Deewiant> and as for |... I'm not going to respond
21:11:53 <AnMaster> examples from wikipedia: some haskell:
21:12:05 <AnMaster> err there was a missing newline after ml:
21:12:13 <AnMaster> I think they seem pretty similar
21:12:20 <Deewiant> yes, because implementing a trivial two-liner says everything :-P
21:12:43 <oerjan> the | does not mean exactly the same thing there though
21:12:46 <Deewiant> what little real ocaml source code I've seen, I've found ugly
21:12:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:12:55 <oerjan> another haskell version is:
21:12:59 <AnMaster> I don't know either language, I just note they look similar
21:13:17 <AnMaster> they certainly look more like each other than like, say, erlang or prolog
21:13:34 <AnMaster> while erlang and prolog look quite similar according to ais523
21:13:42 <oerjan> the | is used for conditional guards in haskell, but to separate cases in ML (apparently)
21:13:57 <ais523> AnMaster: for erlang and prolog, they vaguely resemble each other, the differences are pretty obvious though
21:13:58 <Deewiant> you switched topics at some point :-P
21:14:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well O'Caml descend from ML
21:15:08 <oerjan> ML is not indentation sensitive like haskell
21:15:21 <ais523> haskell is not indentation-sensitive if you don't want it to be
21:15:44 <AnMaster> haskell care about indention!?
21:15:59 <AnMaster> I thought only python did that
21:16:06 <Deewiant> unlike with Python, though, I've never had any problems with Haskell's indentation
21:16:16 <oerjan> haskell was first, i think (but not _the_ first)
21:16:45 <AnMaster> anyway yes I like indention, but not everyone want to indent the same way
21:17:01 <AnMaster> just look at how many indention styles there are for C!
21:17:07 <oerjan> haskell only is indentation sensitive in a few constructs
21:17:14 <Deewiant> and in any case, it's fairly open about it
21:17:20 <AnMaster> must be painful to parse based on indention
21:17:27 <oerjan> the rest you can indent as you want
21:17:31 <ais523> AnMaster: Haskell indentation looks better than Python indentation, and if you put { and } in it ignores the indentation
21:17:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the indentation sensitiveness is mostly stuff like "the contents of a for loop must be indented deeper than the for loop"
21:17:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah haskell indentation is painful to parse, especially because of its more flexible rules than python
21:17:56 <Deewiant> i.e. not "4 spaces or a tab or you die"
21:17:58 <ais523> Deewiant: that's in Python, in Haskell you have to line the arguments up with the second word of the loop
21:17:59 <AnMaster> ais523, someone should implement { } in python :D
21:18:07 <ais523> AnMaster: someone did I think
21:18:17 <ais523> there are modules for both Python and Perl to use the other's indentation/block syntax
21:18:19 <AnMaster> ais523, well as a filter and joke iirc
21:18:32 <Deewiant> ais523: oh, you do? I always do it in all languages anyway, never noticed it was necessary :-)
21:18:40 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean line noise for python?
21:18:59 <ais523> AnMaster: that's the regex syntax which is almost the same in Python as in Perl
21:19:04 <ais523> block syntax in Perl is much like in C
21:19:16 <AnMaster> ais523, and no not just regex in perl
21:19:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I can read perl regex just fine, I even like PCRE
21:19:38 <AnMaster> it is stuff like qw/foo/ that put me off
21:19:55 <ais523> but qw is to make programs more readable!
21:19:55 <AnMaster> and the "you can do it in n+1 ways for any given n"
21:20:10 <ais523> qw/foo bar baz quux/ is equivalent to ("foo", "bar", "baz", "quux")
21:20:14 <ais523> useful if you have a long array
21:20:15 <Deewiant> you can do anything in n+1 ways anyway, but only any m <= n will be smart ways
21:20:22 <AnMaster> ais523, sure probably it makes some special case more readable, but a "heavy" syntax is harder to learn
21:20:35 <ais523> well you only have to learn a bit at a time when writing Perl
21:20:39 <ais523> so shallow learning curve
21:20:47 <ais523> steep learning curve if you're trying to /read/ it, though
21:21:01 <AnMaster> not as ugly as php, I admit php is worse
21:21:30 <AnMaster> I can't think of any non-esoteric language that is uglier than php
21:21:46 <AnMaster> well there probably is some I don't know
21:22:06 <ais523> ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL
21:22:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but I don't know COBOL enough to know what it looks like
21:22:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: any guesses as to what that does?
21:22:34 <ais523> you even had to spell out all the arithmetic operations
21:22:36 <AnMaster> 20 THIS OLD BASIC IS PROBABLY WORSE
21:22:53 <Deewiant> seriously, COBOL is worse. :-P
21:23:13 <ais523> AnMaster: imagine assembly language, but written out in English
21:23:14 <AnMaster> <ais523> ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL <-- COBOL++?
21:23:19 <ais523> that's what COBOL's like for arithmetic
21:23:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: wait that line 10 is legal?
21:23:28 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, COBOL++
21:23:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I never coded in basic
21:23:59 <ais523> luckily COBOL is somewhat good for database processing and has useful commands for that, or it would never be used at all
21:24:00 <AnMaster> I began with (gulp) AppleScript
21:24:07 <AnMaster> left it for Pascal, then later C
21:24:09 <ais523> and I started with Pascal and with BASIC
21:24:52 <ais523> then after a while I learnt 6502 asm
21:24:53 <AnMaster> well AppleScript isn't *ugly*, with AppleScript the issue is something else.... maybe the way it try to act like English with bad gramar?
21:25:15 <ais523> also I learnt PAL, a scripting language for a database engine nobody ever uses nowadays I think
21:25:23 <ais523> I got quite good at it though despite it being so obscure
21:25:35 <AnMaster> tell application "Finder", end tell <-- shudder, that is about all I remember
21:25:44 <ais523> then VBA, which is annoying and stupid but it was pretty easy to get hold of interpreters
21:25:56 <ais523> also I learnt C++ some time around this, and C somewhat later
21:26:17 <AnMaster> I mean C is easier to learn than C++ IMO
21:26:24 <ais523> AnMaster: well I came across C++ first
21:26:30 <ais523> unfortunately this was pre-standardisation C++
21:26:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they are very very different languages
21:26:55 <ais523> so I'm in a similar sort of situation to someone who knows only K&R C and doesn't really understand prototypes
21:27:21 <ais523> I keep on forgetting about things like namespaces, and have to look up all the keywords and standard library names because they're different
21:27:32 <AnMaster> but if you take a random non-trivial C program, say 4000+ LOC then chances are it won't compile as a C++ program
21:27:53 <Deewiant> of course not, mostly because of the idiocy with void* in C++
21:27:58 <ais523> AnMaster: yep, but if you replace all the calls to malloc it's a lot more likely to
21:28:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that and int template;
21:28:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which is not that likely
21:28:16 <ais523> maybe sort out constness of string literals but good C programming style shouldn't have that problem
21:28:22 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPC_(programming_language)
21:28:35 <ais523> there are other C features that are hard to translate to C++ but they tend not to be used very much
21:28:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well certainly I saw a member of a struct called template in a plugin ABI recently
21:29:24 <AnMaster> crossfire, so codebase got a long history, since 1993 or so
21:29:52 <AnMaster> const char* to char* and what not *shudder*
21:30:01 <ais523> AnMaster: a trivial #define will fix use of C++ keywods
21:30:13 <ais523> wait... that's still typoed
21:30:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I think two files compile as C++ on that project
21:30:24 <AnMaster> one of them is generated by flex
21:30:29 <AnMaster> that says something doesn't it?
21:30:38 <AnMaster> there are quite a lot of files
21:30:55 <ais523> AnMaster: C files are unlikely to coincidentally compile as C++
21:31:06 <AnMaster> ais523, and even after malloc is fixed I mean
21:32:38 <AnMaster> ais523, and certainly most parts doesn't use malloc in it, the code prefer sprintf + char [MAXBUF]; on the stack (though I fixed the remaining sprintf to snprintf some months ago)
21:32:49 <pikhq> One needs to make a point of making something valid C and C++...
21:32:57 <pikhq> Though it's not too *hard* if you make a point of it.
21:33:09 <ais523> pikhq: or too sensible really, in most cases
21:33:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, no I make a point of making it not compile as C++
21:33:15 <ais523> probably it's best to make malloc and free macros
21:33:21 <ais523> if you're doing that sort of thing
21:33:30 <pikhq> There's no point in it, of course, but it's not difficult. ;p
21:34:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, I prefer to use C99 specific features like flexible array members to make it harder to port to C++ :)
21:34:35 <AnMaster> since I really think C++ is doing it the wrong way
21:34:46 <pikhq> C99 is definitely nice to code in.
21:34:56 <ais523> I admit to rather liking C++
21:34:58 <AnMaster> objc and smalltalk do seem to have a much saner OOP model than C++
21:35:02 <pikhq> I'm not a huge fan of C++, myself.
21:35:18 <AnMaster> though most time OOP really just confuse isssues
21:35:22 <ais523> and I actually like its OOP model, but maybe that's because I don't care about insanity and I've been forced to learn Java
21:35:27 <pikhq> And I still want to beat Bjarne with a cluebat for overloading << and >> for I/O.
21:35:43 <pikhq> Those are bitshift operators, dammit!
21:35:57 <ais523> they just look like bitshift operators to a C programmer
21:35:57 <AnMaster> operator overloading do have uses, but using it for IO.... no
21:36:17 <pikhq> Just because you can define operator+ to be the multiplication operator doesn't make it the multiplication operator.
21:36:23 <ais523> that's not operator overloading, that's finding a spare unused operator in your cupboard and deciding to use it for something else because it can handle the additional workload
21:36:24 <pikhq> It makes it proof that the coder is a cock.
21:36:25 <AnMaster> say if you implement a class doing decimal numbers as fractions of two BIGNUM
21:36:37 <AnMaster> then overloading +-*/ would be sane
21:36:51 <Deewiant> ais523: cout << 1 << 4, oops, didn't print 16
21:37:08 <ais523> Deewiant: it does I think, << is left-associative
21:37:23 <ais523> (cout << 1) << 4 definitely prints 16
21:37:26 <pikhq> Now, if you really *want* an operator to be used for output, define *another one*.
21:37:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well then that would make it even more confusing
21:37:30 <oerjan> ERROR: Lambdabot existence failure
21:37:30 <Deewiant> ais523: just tested it, doesn't
21:37:37 <AnMaster> <ais523> (cout << 1) << 4 definitely prints 16 <-- err=
21:37:55 <Deewiant> not 1 4 either, specifically 14 :-)
21:37:59 <ais523> Deewiant: wait, I've been saying the opposite of what I mean
21:38:07 <ais523> cout << 1 << 4 prints 14 as expected
21:38:11 <ais523> is what I meant to say
21:38:30 <Deewiant> it is expected but it's an easy mistake to make which is why << was a bad idea
21:38:36 <ais523> yes it is, why would you expect << to associate the other way for no good reason?
21:38:59 <AnMaster> well, I expect it to work sanely
21:38:59 <Deewiant> the right operator to overload is function call
21:39:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean... cout.print()?
21:39:32 <AnMaster> that doesn't sound sane at all
21:39:33 <Deewiant> of course you can have an alias called print if you like
21:39:37 <ais523> why would, for instance, cout << "a" << 1 << 4 <<"b" parse as (((cout << "a") << (1 << 4)) << "b") rather than ((((cout << "a") << 1) << 4) << "b")
21:39:47 <pikhq> I'd prefer a different operator for the purpose.
21:40:01 <AnMaster> can you overload function call in C++?
21:40:06 <pikhq> ais523: Such things are a natural side effect of there being two definitions for the same operator.
21:40:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what's wrong with that?
21:40:21 <ais523> ah, that's a change from the C++ I've learnt, I think
21:40:43 <olsner> AnMaster: sure you can :)
21:40:44 <ais523> AnMaster: not really a problem, though, because an object is not a function nor vice versa
21:40:46 <Deewiant> what's your problem with operator() :-P
21:40:48 <pikhq> I'd understand it if C++ were defined similarly to Plof...
21:41:02 <pikhq> Namely, every operator is soley defined via overloading.
21:41:06 <ais523> besides, you have to love compile-time turing-completeness
21:41:47 <olsner> anything turing-complete can be abused!
21:41:49 <ais523> Deewiant: we're in #esoteric at the moment...
21:41:52 <AnMaster> <ais523> besides, you have to love compile-time turing-completeness <-- NO
21:41:59 <Deewiant> ais523: yes, but C++ isn't meant to be esoteric :-)
21:42:17 <ais523> Deewiant: all languages should be capable of being esoteric, or they're arbitrarily limiting what they're useful for
21:42:27 <ais523> AnMaster: /way/ better than Java templates
21:42:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: read http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html if you haven't
21:42:30 <AnMaster> I mean, generic classes fine, they exist in C# for exampl
21:42:39 <pikhq> "C++ prohibits goto from crossing an initialisation."
21:42:50 <Deewiant> ais523: well, C++ is easily esoteric even without templates :-)
21:42:58 <pikhq> You mean goto foo;int i = 0;foo: isn't valid C++?
21:43:06 <ais523> pikhq: no, imagine if int is an object
21:43:10 <ais523> do you run its constructor?
21:43:28 <olsner> I think it doesn't give an error, only undefined behaviour or something like that since you're jumping past the initialization of i
21:43:50 <pikhq> olsner: Compilers are required to complain about that.
21:45:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Nope..
21:45:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://www.codu.org/cgi-bin/hg/hgwebdir.cgi/plof/file/512a473fb11b/core/pul/collection.plof // this has a few psl{} bits, but, err, ignore those :P.
21:45:52 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but i can't remember the differences image, so.
21:46:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | well, there's an accent on the u for starters.
21:46:01 <olsner> are you sure? I'm pretty sure MSVC doesn't... and since warning about it relies on the ability of the specific compiler to analyze control flow, different compilers give warnings in different cases
21:46:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | integers.
21:46:27 <Deewiant> olsner: MSVC never claimed to be standards compliant ;-)
21:46:41 <ais523> Deewiant: the vast majority of languages are esoteric
21:47:22 <ais523> I mean that they can be used for esoteric purposes
21:47:27 <ais523> like the IOCCC, for instance
21:47:36 <ais523> C isn't an esolang, but IOCCC programs are esolang programs
21:47:49 <Deewiant> well, I wouldn't call a language esoteric for that reason
21:47:50 <ais523> one thing that annoys me about Python is that it tries to arbitrarily restrict this tendency
21:47:56 <Deewiant> I'd call it turing-complete ;-)
21:47:58 <ais523> Deewiant: well, I suppose so
21:48:27 <ais523> (incidentally, one of my friends, a big Python fan, was trying to persuade me that Python wasn't Turing-complete because there was only one way to do everything)
21:48:49 <ais523> (they were wrong, of course, I've seen an implementation of ?: in Python of course and it looked like Perl but worse)
21:49:17 <AnMaster> that it wouldn't be turing complete makes no sense
21:49:41 <AnMaster> it got loops, it have memory, even if it have the sizeof() problem it still got file IO
21:49:49 <ais523> I didn't quite reach the point of pointing out that it's entirely possible to write a Perl interp in Python and write the Perl program you feed it as input in more than one way
21:50:40 <AnMaster> not that I see why anyone would want to write a perl implementation in python
21:50:50 <AnMaster> well maybe that would mean they would get perl6 done faster...
21:50:53 <ais523> but really, I get annoyed when people say there should only be one way to do an if, for instance
21:50:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: BTW, I'll try to update the mycology results table this weekend so if there's a release pending you should probably do it
21:51:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, too late tonight, will do it tomorrow
21:51:17 <AnMaster> as I'm going to sleep in 10 minutes
21:51:26 <ais523> OK, maybe Perl is a bit excessive (I can think of 5 ways to do an if offhand), but it's nice to have a choice
21:51:31 <ais523> so you can pick one that's easy to write
21:51:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so lets see when I wake up tomorrow
21:51:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no rush, it takes a long time to do it
21:51:53 <AnMaster> since I read the last Terry Pratchett last night
21:52:24 <AnMaster> very very unlike Pratchett's normal writing style
21:52:40 <AnMaster> (don't know if there are any other fans of his books here)
21:54:59 <ais523> I've read most of the ones I've got hold of, some are very good and some are just mediocre
21:55:14 <AnMaster> ais523, well this one isn't a Discworld one
21:55:32 <AnMaster> and yes some of the early ones are not as good
21:56:02 <ais523> btw Good Omens is excellent
21:56:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well would you say that the jokes and humor is an important part of Good Omens?
21:56:54 <AnMaster> ais523, and same for most of Pratchett's other books
21:57:04 <ais523> ah, ok, so pretty different, then
21:57:09 <AnMaster> it got a few jokes, but really it is more about telling the story
21:57:57 <AnMaster> still I'd say it was extremely good, couldn't put the book down
22:05:03 <tusho> there is a guy in #defocus right now
22:05:16 <tusho> saying that google is run by the government and yelling about aspartame and flouride and such
22:05:18 <ais523> tusho: playing RPGs with asiekerka?
22:05:20 <tusho> and asking us for good news sources
22:05:34 <ais523> tusho: refer them to the Onion, or possibly UnNews
22:05:37 <tusho> ais523: already done
22:05:47 <tusho> then someone pointed him to infowars.com
22:05:50 <tusho> which he claimed he was above
22:06:17 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> MacGyverNL, yeah, alex jones is an agent
22:06:19 <tusho> that's a metaconspiracy
22:06:26 <tusho> a 911 conspiracy theorist ... is a government agent
22:06:59 <oerjan> it's a reasonable idea - drown out the _real_ conspiracy theories with fake ones
22:07:20 <ais523> oerjan: is that a conspiracy theory conspiracy theory?
22:07:37 <pikhq> It's a conspiracy metatheory.
22:07:42 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> tusho, you are generalizing the only person you ever knew existed?
22:07:49 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> anyway, alex jones is a shill william cooper was closer to telling the truth
22:08:11 <tusho> ais523: he's in #nethack
22:08:16 <ais523> tusho: which nick are you complaining about? ThePaintedMan?
22:08:26 <ais523> yes, a #nethack regular, who seems quite sane over there
22:08:45 <tusho> ais523: maybe he's trolling us
22:08:52 <ais523> people can act so differently on different channels...
22:09:04 <tusho> ais523: although nethack players seem quite nice in general
22:09:06 <tusho> so i don't know why he would
22:09:22 <ais523> #nethack's pretty polite and helpful
22:10:07 <ais523> <fungot> ais523: s/ top/ to/ get a flight simulator
22:10:13 <tusho> i am pretty sure that he is a troll now
22:10:29 <ais523> my brain has trouble parsing that
22:10:39 <ais523> it reads the to as both inside and outside the s///
22:10:53 <tusho> <tenex> it would be funny if he wasn't using foul language
22:10:58 <tusho> BUT NOW IT JUST OFFENDS MY SENSIBILITIES :( :( :(
22:13:14 <tusho> <tusho> ThePaintedMan: alex jones created fluoride to poison people's minds so that they wouldn't know he's a government shill
22:15:40 <oerjan> Dr Strangelove ripoff?
22:15:55 <tusho> No, I made that up all by my lonesome.
22:16:24 <oerjan> i thought he was the one saying that
22:17:09 <oerjan> anyway, since i've just discovered Poe's Law i would like to claim that, again
22:25:45 <tusho> some of the gems from his early minutes:
22:25:45 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> i dont even use a microwave...molecular friction destroys protein changse
22:26:21 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> google is run by the us government
22:27:59 <tusho> now he's ranting about 9/11
22:28:02 <tusho> and how global warming is false
22:29:19 <tusho> and spouting pseudo-science
22:31:38 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> MacGyverNL, if you havent figured it out in 7 years how could i prove anything
22:32:23 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> there is peer reviewed phd papers out about this[citation needed]
22:34:43 <ais523> tusho: who added the {{fact}} tag?
22:35:24 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> i will i have to go to thea irport
22:35:27 <tusho> after people asked for evidence
22:39:22 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi.").
22:42:17 <tusho> ais523: any esoteric ideas yet? :P
22:43:23 <ais523> tusho: there was the rather crazy idea I saw suggested of doing massively parallel processing by sending malformed HTTP packets to a lot of computers and seeing which ones bounced and which ones got lost
22:43:41 <ais523> however I don't think HTTP is Turing-complete or anywhere near it, so I doubt it's usable for computation
22:43:50 <ais523> at least not for computations you couldn't just do yourself more easily
22:44:50 <tusho> ais523: can you remember that netcc idea I came up with?
22:44:54 <tusho> a p2p compiler network
22:45:00 <tusho> the wan to distcc's LAN
22:45:04 <ais523> not really, apart from the name
22:45:30 <ais523> although what might be interesting: a massively distributed testsuite
22:45:31 <tusho> it'd have to compile everything twice, i think
22:45:35 <tusho> to verify that somebody isn't faking it
22:45:45 <ais523> where you get to try out your program on all sorts of different configurations
22:45:56 <ais523> it could easily beat most other tests at testing portability on obscure systems
22:46:05 <tusho> ais523: debian does something like that
22:46:17 <tusho> debian just for builds
22:46:20 <ais523> tusho: I know, but I was thinking of a much broader scale than Debian
22:46:20 <tusho> but i think cpan runs the tests
22:46:27 <ais523> because they restrict themselves to sane implementations
22:46:35 <tusho> presumably in a sandbox
22:46:37 <ais523> oh, and the Hurd, and ia64
22:46:45 <ais523> and it's in a chroot, in a fakeroot, I think
22:46:58 <tusho> ais523: duke nukem forever will run on hurd, i believe
22:47:15 <tusho> it'll be the hurd's kiler app
22:47:47 <ais523> tusho: nah, Busybox/Hurd or something else that ignores the GNU utilities would be funnier
22:48:04 <ais523> or even better, Explorer/Hurd
22:48:30 <tusho> Explorer/Hurd :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
22:49:05 <tusho> ais523: the installation process will have an Ogg Theora video of Stephen Fry next to it walking you through it
22:49:15 <tusho> licensed under by-nc-nd
22:49:22 <ais523> nah, something silly like Ogg/PNG
22:49:28 <ais523> which is theoretically possible but pointless
22:49:56 <tusho> ais523: so which do you think will be first
22:50:19 <ais523> tusho: hard to say, when DNF comes out Hurd won't be usable but the FSF will claim it is
22:50:27 <ais523> so there'll be a massive precedence argument
22:50:34 <ais523> and in the end the matter will just be left unsettled
22:50:41 <tusho> ais523: uh, you mean ... the current situation?
22:50:50 <tusho> You can use the Hurd today! As long as you don't want to do anything!
22:51:02 <ais523> yep, and it'll still be like that when DNF is released
22:51:14 <tusho> personally I'm looking forward to DNF a lot more than Hurd
22:51:25 <pikhq> tusho: The FSF doesn't pretend that the Hurd is useful.
22:51:26 <tusho> although Hurd might just be as funny, though not intentionally
22:51:31 <tusho> ais523: get out that quote
22:51:35 <pikhq> Even RMS doesn't claim that the Hurd is useful...
22:51:51 <ais523> tusho: it would take a while to find
22:52:01 <pikhq> Okay, fine, so ams thinks the Hurd is useful...
22:52:08 <pikhq> But his idea of useful is 'runs Emacs'.
22:52:41 <ais523> The Hurd is real software that works Right Now. It is not a research project or a proposal. You don't have to wait at all before you can start using and developing it
22:52:56 <ais523> this is in a section entitled "Advantages of the Hurd"
22:53:29 <pikhq> Whoever wrote that page was on crack.
22:53:37 <pikhq> The Hurd *works*, sure...
22:53:52 <tusho> i really don't WANT the hurd to work, it seems terribly deisgned
22:53:57 <tusho> what ever happened to worse is better
22:54:02 <pikhq> In the same sense that somebody implementing an OS entirely in Visual Basic may have something working. :p
22:54:13 <pikhq> oerjan: He's the current GNU system maintainer.
22:54:14 -!- Snrrrub has joined.
22:54:20 <tusho> gnu system maintainer lol
22:54:30 <tusho> you mean ... he manages lots of software packages
22:54:31 <oerjan> yes, but what is his name?
22:54:32 <pikhq> Really, most of what he does is be an ass.
22:54:33 -!- Snrrrub has left (?).
22:54:47 <tusho> who is that guy who led/leads glibc?
22:54:52 <tusho> i like him, he didn't like rms a lot
22:54:59 <tusho> and seemed to be generally reasonable
22:55:27 <tusho> pikhq: moar like Alfred M. Stallman
22:56:11 <lament> more like Adolf M. Stallman
22:56:24 <tusho> http://www.update.uu.se/~ams/public_html/public_html/public_html/public_html/public_html/public_html/
22:56:31 <tusho> expert home directory exposure via the web
22:56:50 <tusho> http://www.update.uu.se/~ams/home/ what the fuck :D
22:56:52 <ais523> what's with all the nested public_htmls?
22:57:12 <ais523> ah, symlink loop, must be
22:57:26 <tusho> ln -s public_html ~
22:57:30 <tusho> and, err, ln -s home ~ ?
22:57:42 <tusho> wrong way around for the ln
22:58:07 <pikhq> tusho: Good description.
22:58:22 <pikhq> Except that even RMS admits ams is an ass.
22:58:33 <tusho> pikhq: who is the glibc maintainer guy
22:58:48 <ais523> tusho: ln works like cp, it's a lot easier to remember how to write it once you realise that
22:58:54 <pikhq> But he's still the maintainer; know the guy you're talking about, at least.
22:58:59 <tusho> ah, ulrich drepper
22:59:06 <tusho> he is cool, i think
23:02:17 <tusho> +b on irc is weird
23:02:20 <tusho> it lets you read but not talk
23:02:24 <tusho> in which case you can't do either
23:02:33 <tusho> why not force a kick, or allow entry?
23:02:36 <ais523> you can still logread...
23:02:40 <tusho> ais523: not my point
23:03:02 <ais523> and kicks and bans being separate makes sense from an implementation point of view
23:03:02 <CO2Games> I'm thinking of adding function support for drainfuck
23:03:07 <ais523> although not a user point of view
23:03:12 <tusho> ais523: yes, so why not let you rejoin after a ban
23:03:14 <tusho> but still not talk?
23:03:19 <tusho> like the actual behaviour you get after setting a ban
23:03:28 <tusho> CO2Games: please read before commenting
23:03:41 <ais523> tusho: arguably there should be three things involved: kick, silence, and prevent_join
23:03:50 <tusho> CO2Games: i am not an idiot
23:03:50 <ais523> the problem is that +b combines two of those
23:03:51 <CO2Games> Also, tusho that function already exists
23:03:56 <tusho> I AM NOT AN IDIOT, CO2Games.
23:04:16 <tusho> CO2Games: did you miss the part where i already knew
23:04:22 <tusho> i'm saying that +b behaves wrongly
23:04:41 <CO2Games> B just forces someone to be unable to rejoin
23:04:49 <CO2Games> Heh now the muting part is stupid
23:04:50 <tusho> CO2Games! stop it!
23:04:57 <oerjan> i think +b probably has communist sympathies
23:05:14 <oerjan> and is secretly plotting to overthrow irc
23:05:40 <CO2Games> Too bad theres no communist countries
23:05:48 <oerjan> s/communist/stalinist/
23:06:11 <tusho> communism is verily unawesome
23:06:24 <oerjan> this +b is not one of those kind, gentle communists you are talking about
23:06:34 <tusho> CO2Games: unfortunately not
23:06:39 <CO2Games> Everything is free and everyone is together
23:06:50 <CO2Games> Oh it's the best. Why wouldn't anyone want communism?
23:07:05 <tusho> CO2Games: your tone suggests non-seriousness
23:07:10 <tusho> or at least a massive misunderstanding of communism
23:07:21 <CO2Games> tusho, do you know what communism is?
23:07:32 <tusho> CO2Games: yes, i have a brain
23:07:35 <ais523> CO2Games: where do you think all the free stuff is coming from?
23:07:41 <ais523> you have to work to fulfil the other side of the equation
23:07:47 <ais523> and in practice it's hard to persuade people to work
23:07:53 <tusho> ais523: noooo, communism is where everyone is happy and they dance in the fields!!!!
23:08:01 <tusho> and nobody does anything, they just chill and be happy!
23:08:18 <CO2Games> People do what they love, and love what they do
23:08:26 <CO2Games> It's like the bushmen, or the amish
23:08:27 <tusho> loooooooooooooool!!!!!!!
23:08:42 <CO2Games> Unfortunately there is no communism
23:08:45 <ais523> have to go now anyway to catch my bus
23:08:48 -!- ais523 has quit ("9").
23:09:04 <CO2Games> Rather, we have dictatorships dubbed communist
23:09:18 <CO2Games> true communism has no government but the people themselves
23:09:32 <CO2Games> You need a government to get people to work
23:09:40 <tusho> CO2Games: Information: You are showing yourself to be hilariously uninformed.
23:09:45 <CO2Games> When you have a government, you aren't communist
23:10:00 <oerjan> the thing is, communism requires perfectly unselfish people
23:10:22 <tusho> nobody is perfectly unselfish, communism is based on the flawed principle that there are unselfish people
23:10:23 <CO2Games> That is why we have NOTHING that is truely communist, except maybe the amish
23:10:27 <oerjan> and if you have only perfect people, every government works. even nazism ;)
23:10:28 <tusho> and therefore communism is a piece of shit
23:11:03 <oerjan> tusho: oh i'm sure there are _some_ unselfish people
23:11:04 <CO2Games> Wasn't that previously called facism?
23:11:31 <AnMaster> <ais523> tusho: arguably there should be three things involved: kick, silence, and prevent_join <-- various ircds support silence in various ways, can't remember freenode syntax
23:11:41 <CO2Games> Heh I always wondered what that meant until someone said "its not pronounced face-ism"
23:11:46 <tusho> yes, wek now AnMaster
23:12:04 <AnMaster> tusho, about http://www.update.uu.se/~ams/ <-- huh, and you even reach his .emacs
23:12:12 <CO2Games> some use +b ~Q, some use +q, etc.
23:12:38 <tusho> (when (featurep 'xemacs)
23:12:38 <tusho> (error "Please don't use Lucid Emacs. GNU Emacs is much nicer."))
23:12:42 <tusho> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
23:13:01 <AnMaster> tusho, that was an early name for xemacs iirc
23:13:06 <tusho> from lucid corporatio
23:13:22 <tusho> CO2Games: you use windows and notepad, iirc?
23:13:36 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.jwz.org/doc/lemacs.html
23:13:50 <CO2Games> And yes, I use notepad for text
23:15:45 <CO2Games> I was thinking of implementing a second stack in my interpreter, the callstack
23:16:50 <CO2Games> with some sort of return function
23:17:00 <CO2Games> And perhaps an interrupt-like system
23:17:06 <oerjan> clearly what we need here is a smoke stack
23:17:25 <CO2Games> I forgot...what is a smoke stack again?
23:18:45 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokestack
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23:42:26 <tusho> The airplane almost crashed when Elliott tried to into the president, so had no qualm with MY daughter. a cat. (a juicy cat.) So my uncle , who was really pretty queer, raped himself. We can dance if we want to, But it didn't make a bit of difference, because I raped him back Suddenly, shit was fucked up and pee was fucked down. Several years later, there was nothing left of the world. Or time for that matter. God decided to pull his beard off to reveal that
23:42:30 <tusho> when did that get cut off
23:43:23 <tusho> he was really Rick Astley. and he would have gotten away with it too, if it wern't for Rob Zombie is indeed a zombie. Hi!
23:43:34 <oerjan> sheesh, have there been any stories that didn't include sex yet?
23:43:57 <tusho> oerjan: yes, the first 4 test ones
23:44:07 <tusho> but apart from that, this is the internetweb
23:44:18 <tusho> hmm, first 5 tests
23:44:28 <tusho> oerjan: #6 has no sex
23:44:41 <tusho> #7 has lots of penises but no sex
23:44:50 <tusho> #8 has anuses but no sex
23:45:36 <tusho> #13 has butts but no sex
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23:57:09 <tusho> Today, Niklas raped a bird. The bird then raped a Elliott's butt which proceeded to eat fish. be a rapist. and hump feathers. Suddenly, the website for Later that day, a rapist raped himself. Then a bird, who was a rapist, raped Niklas. It was rapelicious. One day, Niklas was not raped he raped a bird and it was still rapelicious. Speaking of rapelicious, I have heard of a rapist beard. 5+5=10 Rape is fun. Yiff!
00:00:59 <tusho> <olinux> body { font-size:82%; }
00:00:59 <tusho> <olinux> what percent is best for acheiving 13px?
00:01:44 <oerjan> how many feet in a kilogram?
00:02:18 <Slereah_> oerjan : Use normalised natural units.
00:02:24 <oerjan> and who tossed all those rape seeds around here?
00:02:58 <oerjan> i don't see him in the channel
00:03:18 <tusho> oerjan: everybody who helped write that story
00:03:54 <oerjan> i refuse to use anything but 100% virgin oil, so there!
00:04:21 <lament> sometimes you need oil to rape a virgin
00:04:22 <oerjan> if it's rape, it's not virgin you fool
00:04:25 <tusho> virgin rape oil sounds awesome
00:04:29 <tusho> oerjan: no, it's oil to use for rape
00:04:31 <tusho> made out of virgins
00:04:47 <oerjan> i prefer baby oil for that
00:05:01 <lament> you need superior lubrication when raping a virgin
00:05:28 <lament> made of babies, for babies!
00:05:47 <tusho> this is not #hot, ok
00:05:55 <tusho> please direct further hotness to #hot
00:06:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | pbos[-i] ? :S.
00:06:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | {(Nil)[(iter),]}.
00:06:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 1093 chars :/.
00:06:19 <Slereah_> Where will I discuss infant rape?
00:06:26 <optbot> Slereah_: doesn't befunge have a stackie?
00:07:35 <oerjan> come let me show you my big stack
00:09:19 <Slereah_> Want me to bully your automaton around, wink wink?
00:09:38 <oerjan> the entire backlog of #esoteric is just 1093 chars
00:09:58 <Slereah_> We don't talk much round these parts.
00:10:14 <Slereah_> Hell, it holds on a floppy disk!
00:10:31 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/optbot$ du -h
00:10:32 <optbot> tusho: Or if you took four arguments and wanted to return a bit-array of the first two or-ed together with the second two, you could do something like:
00:10:34 <oerjan> i'd say it holds on a sumerian clay tablet
00:10:37 <Slereah_> Wait, I'm confusing kB with MB
00:11:22 <tusho> Slereah_: you'd need around 44 floppies
00:13:51 <tusho> oerjan: around 31, actually
00:30:10 <tusho> <ThePaintedMan> i assume you guys see no flaws in any of the official magic plane theory...not even the pentagon, the flight that aws shot down, the fireproof passports surviving the collapse, the teleporting hijackers that are STILL ALIVE, the connections between the bushes and the bin ladens, or who built the buildings or who owned the buildings and got insurance, or how wtc7 was bomb proof, or who did the put options on the airlines...selective memories
00:38:18 <Slereah_> And why do people already threatens me with k-lining.
00:39:04 <tusho> Meanwhile, I quoted nicho some #defocus policy to politely inform him that he was wrong on a certain issue, and got "Fuck off and die."
00:39:16 <tusho> His replies thereafter (in response to "Uh? What did I do?") escalated to, and I quote,
00:39:23 <tusho> "JUST GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME, YOU STALKING HALF WIT PRICK!"
00:39:31 <tusho> Oh IRC, what mental disabilities don't you have?
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00:42:45 <Slereah_> It's boring and everyone bitch.
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01:45:46 <Slereah_> Is there some brainfuck interpreter that outputs graphics.
02:44:18 <GregorR> $your_favorite_brainfuck_interpreter <foo> | pnmtopng > output.png
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03:45:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Whynot?.
04:06:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Since I'm on DVD 36.
04:37:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i mean if i did !glass {A}{S}{M[m]}, my interpretor should no longer have them?.
04:37:46 <optbot> CO2Games: that was more of a "why the fuck did he scream" question mark
04:37:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | except other symbols point to True would still be pointing to True..
04:38:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | aaaaah :P.
05:05:56 * GregorR watches software compile across multiple platforms simultaneously >8-D
05:06:04 <GregorR> With the amazoing power of Qemu.
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09:45:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Never deal in upside-down A?.
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14:50:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how's that cfunge release doing
15:13:54 <tusho> Deewiant: hasn't been voted in by the Cfunge Development Committee yet
15:14:11 <tusho> it has a critical unoptimized part in the ROMA fingerprint, apparently
15:16:59 <Deewiant> meh, I'll just use the latest bzr
15:17:05 <Deewiant> which is probably what the release would be anyway
15:18:16 <tusho> Deewiant: no, the bzr is unsupported by the Cfunge Community
15:18:18 <Deewiant> I love the way the changelog is full of stuff like "changed x (mycology was wrong)"
15:18:22 <tusho> not even by phone support
15:26:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: cfunge gives compile warnings, http://rafb.net/p/z3u0EI65.html
15:29:01 <tusho> Deewiant: oh no! removing those warnings will slow it down by 1ms?!
15:29:06 <tusho> what will the Committee do?
15:30:19 <Slereah> I'll be one millisecond late for lunch >:|
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15:45:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | maybe they will add ads in 2006? ;).
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16:18:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sorry had computer problems today
16:18:21 <AnMaster> one computer emitted a high whining noise
16:18:33 <AnMaster> turned out to be harddrive and not a fan
16:19:42 <AnMaster> the ones in genx.c are known and harmless
16:19:47 <AnMaster> as well as not in code I wrote
16:20:06 <AnMaster> the other ones seem to be saying that that gcc version does not support inlining some stuff
16:20:25 <AnMaster> as for "cannot optimise possibly infinite loops" it is again GCC saying it can't do something, but harmless
16:20:41 <Deewiant> I realize it's harmless, I just figured you might want to know about them
16:21:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well gcc 4.1.2 and gcc 4.3.2 don't give those. 4.1.2 doesn't know about the missing inline type, and in 4.3.x it isn't missing any more
16:21:58 <AnMaster> as for infinite loop, 4.3.x doesn't mention that, so I guess detection algorithm may have changed
16:22:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however now that I found the broken part in that computer I plan to make a release
16:23:02 <Deewiant> is it identical to the latest Bzr barring the version number?
16:24:43 <AnMaster> identical to r412 (anmaster AT envbot.org-20080913152316-yrabw4idfpkq0m7g)
16:25:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 412 fixed FING to new spec iirc
16:29:12 <AnMaster> currently test building in various configurations
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18:58:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does the updating go?
18:59:00 <Deewiant> I found a bug in my build tool and have been fixing that for the past two hours or so
18:59:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ouch, your page generator build tool or?
18:59:59 <Deewiant> basically all that's left in the update is to see that the table is generated correctly, write some stuff about new (and some old) interpreters and a changelog
19:00:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, my generic make-replacement
19:01:52 <AnMaster> in that case: 1) what is it called 2) link?
19:02:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how is it better than make?
19:04:08 <Deewiant> mostly, it's portable (there are 100 different make formats and many rely on Posix-only shell features and such) and more powerful (or at least, more power for a given amount of complexity)
19:05:04 <Deewiant> I should take a weekend off at some point to polish it up a bit to a usable state and then release it
19:05:17 <Deewiant> documentation is somewhat sparse and it has bugs like the one I just found :-P
19:06:36 <AnMaster> hm, does it work for any language or does it have dependency extracting support for a few languages
19:06:52 <Deewiant> it's like make, no language-specific support
19:08:33 <Deewiant> if you want to look I can give you the file I use for building my homepage
19:08:40 <Deewiant> but since it's Haskell you might not want to :-P
19:09:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so the syntax of these make files are haskellish?
19:09:17 <Deewiant> not "haskellish", they are Haskell code.
19:10:07 <AnMaster> no idea if that means the same in Finnish as in Swedish
19:10:08 <Deewiant> yeah, it's a bit of a pun on the tool's name which is Coadjute :-)
19:10:19 <Deewiant> and probably means the same in swedish
19:10:37 <Deewiant> and it fits in 8.3 which is why I chose it :-P
19:10:46 <AnMaster> who cares about 8.3 these days?
19:11:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's early afternoon here, but anyways...
19:11:23 <pikhq> Good indeterminate time of the day to you, as well.
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19:43:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me when it is updated
19:44:20 <AnMaster> hope it happens before 23:00 CEST
19:45:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the link to the task at http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/misc-projects.html is dead
19:46:19 <Deewiant> meh, they don't keep old exercises :-/
19:54:02 <tusho> Deewiant: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/Adjutant.hs <- I am pretty sure this would be one page of code with scons
19:54:33 <Deewiant> which was my main motivation for it
19:55:06 <Deewiant> plus, it took waaay too long to run until I found an obscure hack to prevent SCons from scanning the path for executables every time it's run
19:58:58 <AnMaster> it scans them for executables without caching?
19:59:13 <Deewiant> in any case, doing it even once annoyed me a lot
19:59:17 <Deewiant> because I don't need any of them
19:59:34 <Deewiant> much bigger than Coadjute's (which isn't even compressed)
20:00:00 <Deewiant> Coadjute's is plaintext and much smaller
20:00:42 <AnMaster> time stamps change when you edit files
20:00:51 <Deewiant> they also change when you don't make changes
20:01:27 <AnMaster> sure, but why would you go around touching files in your build tree?
20:01:28 <Deewiant> a realistic scenario: you make a change, save, undo it, save again
20:02:08 <AnMaster> well sure, but that will rebuild one file + linking
20:02:16 <AnMaster> unless it is an header, agreed
20:02:31 <Deewiant> it can happen that the build time is really long
20:02:38 <Deewiant> in big projects, I hear the linking time is the main overhead
20:02:40 <AnMaster> and I normally use revert in such cases
20:02:59 <AnMaster> as in hg/svn/bzr/whatever revert
20:03:20 <Deewiant> and that might go too far back
20:03:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how many revisions are there in the ccbi 1 repo?
20:03:55 <AnMaster> well you don't commit often then or?
20:04:11 <Deewiant> and yes, I tend to make too big commits :-/
20:04:15 <AnMaster> since you implement *more* fingerprints, more complex ones, minifunge and so on
20:04:19 <Deewiant> and also, it only starts from 1.0.4
20:04:27 <Deewiant> when minifunge + most fingerprints were already done
20:04:46 <AnMaster> and it is probably more, since I used feature branches for some things
20:04:57 <AnMaster> and they get merged into a "merge" commit in mainline
20:06:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tend to make commits after implementing one fingerprint, or one bug fixed
20:06:59 <AnMaster> and why didn't you use VCS when you began?
20:07:24 <Deewiant> probably didn't know much about them, or just felt it wasn't necessary
20:07:26 <AnMaster> revision 1 in cfunge wasn't even anything more than a main file and a build system
20:07:48 <AnMaster> around revision 6 I think it could run befunge93
20:07:51 <Deewiant> my revision 1 is usually something that does what is intended
20:08:00 <Deewiant> so for CCBI it would have been full befunge-98 conformance
20:08:03 <AnMaster> no wait, it could *load files* at revision 6
20:09:10 <AnMaster> by revision 13 it could run factorial.b93 from catseye
20:09:20 <AnMaster> 21 I implemented [ and ] from 98
20:10:08 <AnMaster> by 30 it got to end of 98 part of mycology according to log message, though with some bad
20:10:43 <AnMaster> by 34 or so I had a infinite funge space using a hash library instead of simply a large fixed one
20:12:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw, do you have any clue what a file ending in .wps is?
20:13:25 <AnMaster> I was thinking word perfect possibly
20:15:05 <AnMaster> now to find out how to open it, seems like openoffice doesn't like it very much
20:16:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I found "WPS 2000/Office 1.0 (*.wps)" in the open dialog filter box in oowriter
20:16:25 <AnMaster> yet that doesn't manage to open this file
20:16:52 <AnMaster> (and yes, file(1) thinks it is "data")
20:26:13 <pikhq> file(1) isn't exactly *accurate*; after all, it's just doing a bunch of heuristics on the file to guess what type it is.
20:29:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed, but "data" means "didn't find anything relevant"
20:29:56 <AnMaster> and a lot of the time file is useful
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21:04:45 <AnMaster> how does scheme differ from lisp? Or is it just a dialect of lisp?
21:06:10 <oerjan> a dialect, sure, but also different
21:06:34 <oerjan> no distinction betwen variables and functions
21:07:01 <oerjan> proper lexical scoping, which the first lisps didn't have
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21:07:30 <oerjan> or used to be at any rate
21:08:08 <oerjan> "hygienic" macros which take automatic care of naming conflicts
21:09:45 <oerjan> that's what comes to mind on the spot
21:10:41 <oerjan> common lisp afaik is all the opposite except that i think it also has lexical scoping nowadays
21:11:36 <oerjan> (possibly optional, there's some function vs. lambda stuff in that iirc)
21:12:22 <oerjan> and emacs lisp still has dynamic scoping i think, i know little else about it
21:13:13 <oerjan> basically scheme is the prettiest and most logical dialect
21:15:17 <oerjan> oh and i forgot continuations which scheme has
21:15:39 <AnMaster> continuations, I never really understood the concept
21:17:34 <oerjan> i never really understood why it's difficult, which probably means i cannot explain it
21:19:32 <oerjan> whenever you are evaluating an sub-expression in a program, there must be some notion of what the program does when it's finished evaluating
21:20:44 <oerjan> scheme allows you to take that notion and use it explicitly as a continuation
21:21:43 <oerjan> when you call the continuation function of an expression with some value, the effect is like having that expression finish evaluating with that value as its result
21:22:26 <oerjan> when done from inside the expression, that becomes like an escape function, similar to return or break in C
21:24:52 <oerjan> the really weird case is when done from outside the expression, after it has already returned. you can do this in scheme because a continuation can be saved away in a variable like any other value
21:25:24 <oerjan> the effect of that is somewhat like rewinding the program and returning _again_, with the new value
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21:29:17 <oerjan> there were some ambiguities in that. when i say "finished" or "return" i mean the sub-expression
21:30:51 <AnMaster> so basically scheme doesn't allow you to do a normal return from a function? it kind of calls the original code with a new variable bound?
21:31:24 <AnMaster> "<oerjan> when you call the continuation function of an expression with some value, the effect is like having that expression finish evaluating with that value as its result"
21:31:30 <AnMaster> "<oerjan> when done from inside the expression, that becomes like an escape function, similar to return or break in C"
21:31:42 <oerjan> if you don't use any continuation functions explicitly, things return normally
21:31:50 <AnMaster> and for outside it is like longjmp?
21:32:16 <AnMaster> except you can't longjmp into a function you already returned from
21:32:19 <oerjan> i think it can be implemented with longjmp
21:32:46 <AnMaster> or well it is the classical C answer on tricky question:
21:36:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, does scheme have any undefined behaviour?
21:37:00 <AnMaster> I don't think functional languages suffer from that the way imperative ones do
21:38:17 <oerjan> or at least things you are not supposed to do if you want to be sure that the program runs
21:39:16 <oerjan> one thing that comes to mind: scheme has no reserved words so you can redefine any name. also things are mutually recursive and don't have to be defined before being referred to
21:40:46 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that it said somewhere you shouldn't expect consistent behavior if you redefine the names using themselves
21:41:06 <oerjan> (like using (define (define ...) ...) anywhere
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21:43:02 <oerjan> mind you i haven't really looked at scheme for years
21:43:29 <Slereah> Imagine parenthesises up your ass, forever.
21:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you can run all those elsolangs locally.
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21:46:45 <AnMaster> optbot, I disagree with that topic, you can't run all locally, IRP won't work locally
21:46:46 <optbot> AnMaster: and omits the Scabb Island theme
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21:48:16 <oerjan> optbot: i am pretty sure you could run IRP with a Scabb Island theme
21:48:17 <optbot> oerjan: can I use/paraphrase/steal your suggested rules (with due credit)
21:48:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, you forgot to mention optbot in that, so it won't reply :/
21:48:53 <optbot> AnMaster: well windows need some kernel mode device drivers, IDE controller, or keyboard for example
21:49:22 <AnMaster> optbot, don't all OS need some kernel level drivers for such things?
21:49:22 <optbot> AnMaster: on my comp, but it's partly outdated and too long for me to quickly fix it now
21:49:28 <oerjan> i merely felt the topic had been exhausted
21:50:10 <AnMaster> optbot, what bot is that command for?
21:50:11 <optbot> AnMaster: But you have to have a route to one person in the chat room.
21:50:25 <oerjan> the one who isn't here
21:50:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, none currently in here I think
21:50:44 <Slereah> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:50:53 <fungot> AnMaster: well it's not bad. although i guess that one
21:51:01 <fungot> AnMaster: there's probably an easier way
21:51:08 <optbot> Slereah: what language are you using?
21:51:10 <fungot> AnMaster: get a newer version of it? in firefox it just works
21:51:35 <AnMaster> fungot, what is this "it"/"that" you keep referring to
21:51:36 <fungot> AnMaster: whatever i have to
21:51:58 <AnMaster> fungot, that almost sounds like a threat, not sure why
21:52:13 <AnMaster> oh it decided to stop answering....
21:52:19 <optbot> AnMaster: When did I tell you I wasn't a woman?
21:53:04 <oerjan> you killed fungot! you bastards!
21:53:05 <fungot> oerjan: why do you call it with
21:53:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is a optbot fungot cycle protection thingy
21:53:33 <fungot> AnMaster: that is because otherwise i can't keep track of
21:53:48 <AnMaster> it stops talking to the same person after a number of lines
21:56:36 <tusho> oerjan: just do this
21:56:41 <optbot> fungot: our @ISA to avoid the strictness check
21:56:42 <fungot> optbot: yeah could be a reference to that of the page
21:56:43 <optbot> fungot: there were 3 streams, square, saw and sine, which one you use depending on the value in current cell when calling ','
21:56:44 <fungot> optbot: maybe there's an fnord persistent operating system being written in binary
21:56:45 <fungot> optbot: possibly specific schemes could have this thing called guaifenesin, it's a weird error
21:56:46 <optbot> fungot: so it isn't even consistent!
21:56:48 <fungot> optbot: hiya evoli! don't fall into the middle
21:56:49 <optbot> fungot: I remember hunting typedefs in large globs of C codes and shuddering.
21:57:37 <tusho> <oerjan> optbot: i am pretty sure you could run IRP with a Scabb Island theme
21:57:38 <optbot> tusho: Or you can use biscuit trucks.
21:57:41 <tusho> scabb island is a place in monkey island
22:21:43 <oerjan> ERROR - Syntax error in expression (unexpected end of input)
22:28:20 <AnMaster> since a pop from empty stack in befunge pops 0
22:28:29 <oerjan> my haskell interpreter disagrees
22:28:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: if you didn't check your e-mail yet: Mycology comparison is up
22:28:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, thanks, going to bed now
22:28:51 <oerjan> no one said it was befunge either
22:29:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cfunge isn't mentioned in the list of interpreters under "Interpreters tested"?
22:29:55 * oerjan hands AnMaster a white cane
22:30:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "few BADs it currently gets" <-- ?? I tested with version as of yesterday no BAD
22:31:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/fp-time/cfunge.txt <-- where is the BAD there, it is listed as 1 bad, -4 UNDEF... something is clearly wrong...
22:31:29 <AnMaster> since there is 1 good, and 4 undef
22:31:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, correct that bug please
22:31:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for indv, that is what the specs *says*
22:32:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or rather it was undefined I think when I implemented it
22:32:29 <AnMaster> I see no reason to change it, since both are valid
22:34:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/input_fp-strn/cfunge.txt, unable to reproduce
22:35:44 <AnMaster> Loaded STRN: testing I. Please input: to be or not to be
22:35:45 <AnMaster> UNDEF: got "to be or not to be"
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22:43:42 * AnMaster sent off a mail to Deewiant now
22:45:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and really bad style not releasing those updates to mycology before...
22:47:22 <tusho> AnMaster: ooh, now you're AANGRY
22:47:27 <tusho> he should be careful
22:47:30 <tusho> you might turn into the incredible hulk
22:48:17 <fizzie> The incredible sulk, was somewhere.
22:48:45 <fizzie> 14 hours of moving stuff, phew. Not fun at all. I think I'll just stay here for the next several years.
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23:18:26 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of your new home?
23:18:27 <fungot> fizzie: i never needed it. i've brainwashed everyone else on scheme that uses bytecode?
23:18:55 <fungot> fizzie: for one, i have let-opt.scm, fnord, fnord
23:25:55 <oerjan> fizzie: i hope you have enough straightjackets
23:30:28 <fizzie> I think I'll temporarily shut down the box fungot's running on. Maybe I'll migrate it to the virtual server at some point or something. We've got our beds in the living room (because the bedroom is full of stuff to be sorted), and ever since I added two more hard drives it's been making this weird resonating hum that is amplitude-modulated at ~0.5 Hz frequency.
23:30:28 <fungot> fizzie: we want...information!
23:30:50 <fizzie> fungot: You are not a collective, and really, it's just like sleeping for a bit to you. I think.
23:30:51 <fungot> fizzie: i see it. i wrote some horribly lame stories in wp a decade or so)
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23:31:32 <oerjan> you killed fungot! you bastard!
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23:33:06 <tusho> fizzie: i'll put fungot on rutian!
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23:33:43 <fizzie> It's just in a suspended animation for a moment, but if you want to run a copy, go right ahead. I'll start that on momus.zem.fi later. I just need them sleeps, and the box it was running on is less than a metre away from the head-side of the bed.
23:34:02 <tusho> fizzie: wut are the links again
23:34:30 <fizzie> Hum, I'm not sure I have the most current version anywhere.
23:34:57 <fizzie> zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98, fungot-load-freenode.b98, but the nonsense generator stuff was messier.
23:35:23 <fizzie> Hmm, that link seems to not work.
23:36:10 <fizzie> Oh, right, I had added .txt to those filenames for easier plain-text viewing.
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08:32:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as soon as you wake up, please check your mail
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09:45:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | When (if) I get my Ph.D, I'll change my nickname to DrGregor :P.
10:09:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, was it you who said that thing in topic now?
10:21:08 <Deewiant> 1) that's your problem. if all other interpreters as well as the latest standard say that you should do X and you still want to do Y, that's fine, but now that instruction is useless.
10:21:28 <Deewiant> 2) the BAD comes from what's at the bottom of the file: F is off by one.
10:21:54 <Deewiant> 3) echo "10xyzhhTesting, testing." | cfunge mycouser.b98
10:22:16 <Deewiant> or wait, that last may be incorrect
10:22:33 <Deewiant> 3) echo "10xyz19-hhTesting, testing." | cfunge mycouser.b98
10:23:50 <Deewiant> as for updating Mycology, what do you want me to do? Almost every time I tested a new interpreter I ran into a bug in Mycology. It would have taken me until christmas to update the comparison if I had started now and released iteratively.
10:24:06 <Deewiant> in any case I think that you definitely should say "mycology 2008-xx-yy" conforming
10:24:29 <Deewiant> because that is of course the case, you don't know what's up in the latest versions and the older versions are probably incorrect in some way.
10:25:23 <Deewiant> and cfunge is under "Interpreters tested", you must have missed it
10:36:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it doesn't say if it is 0 or 1 based in the specs for TIME
10:37:23 <AnMaster> and as you know I'm against changing a fingerprint unless it is very new
10:37:28 <AnMaster> that is why I accepted the FING change
10:38:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so indv basically stors the vector vertically now instead of horizontally?
10:38:53 <Deewiant> it's just that when W pushes it pushes x then y, and when V pops it pops y then x
10:39:03 <Deewiant> which meant that the vector was flipped
10:39:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so is the F in TIME 1 or 0 indexed?
10:39:37 <Deewiant> the docs say "Day since First of year"
10:39:42 <Deewiant> which is of course 0 for the first day of the yeas
10:41:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, STRN does indeed not use the buffer the rest of the interpreter use
10:42:22 <Deewiant> I would say it most certainly is not undefined
10:42:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then where is it defined?
10:42:41 <Deewiant> if you use fgets() followed by fgetc() would you expect that they read from different places?
10:46:59 <fizzie> "Common sense", isn't that like a swearword around here?
10:51:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, STRN and TIME are fixed. In INDV I argue it is an UNDEF
10:52:00 <AnMaster> while I agree the other order would be more logical, this is still an undef
10:52:04 <Deewiant> argue all you want, it's a one-line change and doing it wrong is just belligerency
10:52:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you know that once a RFC is published it is never changed?
10:52:28 <AnMaster> that is the same reasons fingerprints should never be changed
10:53:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you suggest RFCs should be updated randomly?
10:53:08 <Deewiant> you know that 10000 other things are just as UNDEF? the only reason that one was made separate is because I wasn't 100% sure whether it was intentional or not
10:53:36 <Deewiant> the fact that the original Mycology called it an UNDEF was a BUG
10:53:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, both RFCs and fingerprint specs are immutable once published
10:54:06 <Deewiant> that's an UNDEF if ever I've seen one :-P
10:54:39 <AnMaster> because once you change stuff, retconn them, stuff are going to get messy
10:54:40 <Deewiant> since we don't have versioning I think it makes very much sense to correct obvious mistakes
10:55:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since we don't have versioning I think it makes sense to have immutable fingerprints, possible with a separate errata
10:56:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I found a new befunge98 for you to test on GreaseMonkey's website
10:56:06 <AnMaster> http://greasemonkey.nonlogic.org/befunge98-r002.zip
10:56:16 <AnMaster> I very much suspect it is early early alpha
10:56:33 <Deewiant> so if there's a mistake which implies that the whole fingerprint is useless (like FNGR) you suggest it should remain like that forever, taking up one slice of the fingerprint space for no good at all?
10:57:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, I agree there are downsides to that, but the other ones are worse
10:58:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but if you agree it is an UNDEF then I'm happy to change it
10:58:59 <AnMaster> Fight for the rights of the UNDEF!
10:59:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I maintain that since practically all Funge programmers are taking part in this very discussion, changing fingerprints is fine as long as they're notified
10:59:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then I suggest notifying at least a week before you update mycology
11:00:11 <Deewiant> like said, in this case that would have meant that the update you wanted so much would have taken months.
11:00:38 <Deewiant> I wanted to do it and so I did. If you want to make a quick release fixing the bugs and you care about it so much I can have cfunge-0.3.3 there pretty quickly.
11:01:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't W suffer the same problem as V in INDV then?
11:01:53 <AnMaster> FungeSpaceSet(b.x, VectorCreateRef(a.x+1, a.y));
11:02:13 <Deewiant> the relevant part is where you pop stuff from the stack
11:02:44 <Deewiant> in any case the INDV tests need to be somewhat rewritten for the new storage offset stuff
11:03:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the "bugs" are fixed in current cfunge bzr head, but I make at most one release / week, not "another day another release", there are limits to the "release early, release often"
11:03:52 <AnMaster> maybe "another hour, another release" next?
11:05:23 <AnMaster> that freshmeat have a policy against that, and I make release announcements, same about sf.net, iirc they got some policy too
11:06:42 <Deewiant> sucks to have to work with others doesn't it :-P
11:07:50 <Deewiant> well that's part of the reason I prefer to host everything myself
11:07:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I concentrate development on efunge currently, though I have some plans for cfunge too
11:08:18 <AnMaster> but for both I currently have limited time
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11:09:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why are you using -W for cfunge?
11:10:10 <AnMaster> reporting unknown instructions *is* against the specs really
11:10:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, another issue, with that last rcfunge, the reported "vanity" output, can't it be disabled?
11:11:21 <AnMaster> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/fp-file/rcfunge-mark-2.txt <-- a binary file?
11:14:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, other odd thing, the rcfunge output for PERL is correct in the one it crash on TURT but incorrect in the case where TURT support is not compiled?
11:15:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also it doesn't say environment variables have to be in order anywhere, so why is that mentioned at the end of http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/y/rcfunge-mark-2.txt
11:18:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/input/rcfunge-mark-2.txt is a 404
11:28:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if efunge becomes a befunge98 interpreter, will you test it? since it will need special knowledge really
11:28:59 <AnMaster> with that I mean weird build system (emakefile, not makefile)
11:32:06 <Deewiant> man, if only Windows had soft links
11:33:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and windows does, *.lnk thougj
11:33:35 <AnMaster> (and no, not really, just poking fun at windows)
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11:34:15 <AnMaster> Please input a character: UNDEF: got -116 'Œ' which is hopefully correct. <-- that in rcfunge looks like memory corruption to me
11:34:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think it clears the input buffer and then reads out of uninitialized memory, just a guess though
11:35:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does any test in mycology depend on a finite cell size?
11:35:33 <AnMaster> since efunge doesn't have that, it use bignums all the way through
11:36:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I do know my STRN got an issue which you didn't detect. STRN's I mess up on UTF8 for some unknown reason, it cuts off after the first non-ascii char
11:36:43 <Deewiant> fixed the Rc/Funge consistency stuff
11:37:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can't detect everything.
11:37:15 <AnMaster> but I think the issue is with getline() rather than STRN...
11:37:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2008-09-14 13:14:33 ( AnMaster) Deewiant, other odd thing, the rcfunge output for PERL is correct in the one it crash on TURT but incorrect in the case where TURT support is not compiled?
11:37:50 <Deewiant> the files I generated stuff from said "rcfunge-mark-2:" instead of "rcfunge:\nrcfunge-mark-2:"
11:38:17 <Deewiant> this is why it takes so long to update: so much has to be done by hand and it's fairly error prone :-/
11:38:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err why does REFC say N/A for cfunge?
11:39:38 <Deewiant> NA has to be written by hand of course
11:39:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a good way to check how much mycology actually tests would be coverage analysis
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11:40:04 <AnMaster> in efunge the various mycology programs test all the b93 parts except two lines
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11:40:20 <AnMaster> which are swap on stack with one item, and dup on stack with one item
11:40:36 <Deewiant> as for binary files: can't be helped that they contain binary in the output, that's what the interpreter outputs
11:40:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what mime type do you send them as?
11:41:04 <Deewiant> I have no clue and I can't do anything about it, not my server
11:42:13 <Deewiant> or hmm, can that be done in .htaccess?
11:43:22 <Deewiant> maybe I can do something about it after all
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11:51:13 <Deewiant> maybe firefox still wants to "save as" regardless
11:53:18 <AnMaster> yay for new build system, using two types of make
11:53:25 <AnMaster> $(ERL) -noshell -eval "make:all(), init:stop()."
11:53:25 <AnMaster> rm -rf *.beam *~ erl_crash.dump
11:53:42 <AnMaster> {'*',[warn_obsolete_guard,warn_untyped_record,warn_unused_import,warn_missing_spec]}.
11:54:18 <Deewiant> and that's not portable to windows because of "rm" :-)
11:54:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I could put that in a variable
11:55:02 <Deewiant> and then the user would have to edit the makefile to get it to build
11:55:17 <AnMaster> you could set the environment variables
11:56:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't think the makefile will work out of box on windows anyway
11:56:47 <Deewiant> in any case you have to mess with stuff
11:56:53 <Deewiant> I'm not saying you should have to change it
11:56:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, agreed, but that can't be avoided
11:57:08 <Deewiant> this is just part of my motivation for Coadjute
11:57:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it means I would need to install haskell wouldn't it?
11:57:35 <AnMaster> ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make clean all
11:57:46 <AnMaster> and that really helps for life.b93
11:58:08 <AnMaster> yes I know that will look cryptic to a non-erlang programmer
11:58:15 <AnMaster> it is a list of atoms and tuples
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12:04:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, efunge won't have an option to print warnings for unknown instructions btw
12:04:59 <AnMaster> not sure why you would want that anyway
12:06:00 <Deewiant> it's like stats: might as well make them as verbose as possible (without obscuring the befunge output)
12:06:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, compile time option then
12:06:34 <Deewiant> I don't care whether you include it or not
12:06:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is any interpreter on the mycology page using bignums+
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12:23:36 <AnMaster> blergh needs to track edges now
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13:33:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Efunge98 is progressing nicely
13:33:44 <AnMaster> will take a few weeks due to time constrains currently
13:50:12 <AnMaster> []abcdef; of 98 are implemented so far
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14:06:38 <AnMaster> in efunge: BAD: 0k^ executes ^ at ^
14:13:53 <Ilari> Isn't 0k^ supposed to execute ^ 0 times (that is, skip it).
14:14:11 <AnMaster> while 1 and such would not step over
14:14:18 <AnMaster> so in effect 1 iteration would execute it twice
14:15:05 <AnMaster> (btw if you wonder, this is not for cfunge, but another funge interpreter in another language)
14:15:55 <tusho> AnMaster: we can and do read previous messages
14:16:01 <tusho> you have mentioned efunge like 5 times. we are not blind.
14:16:05 <tusho> you don't have to point it out.
14:16:54 <AnMaster> tusho, but I assume you will prefer efunge over cfunge?
14:17:08 <tusho> AnMaster: i'll prefer ccbi or rc/funge, probably.
14:17:18 <AnMaster> tusho, but that wasn't the question
14:17:26 <AnMaster> anyway cfunge is more conforming that rc/funge
14:17:39 <tusho> I have not looked at efunge.
14:17:42 <AnMaster> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-comparison.html <-- yes cfunge get a few bad, all fixed today
14:17:59 <AnMaster> tusho, efunge is not fully 98 yet, the version that is uploaded is 93 onlty
14:18:25 <AnMaster> but I think this code is very nice:
14:18:27 <AnMaster> iterate(0, _Instr, IP, Stack, _Space) ->
14:18:27 <AnMaster> iterate(Count, Instr, IP, Stack, Space) ->
14:18:27 <AnMaster> {IP2, Stack2} = processInstruction(Instr, IP, Stack, Space),
14:18:27 <AnMaster> iterate(Count-1, Instr, IP2, Stack2, Space).
14:18:41 <tusho> For things I would use, my ranking goes for non-vaporware stuff: RC/Funge, CCBI1, [huge gaping chasm], cfunge.
14:18:44 <tusho> I do not know where efunge is there.
14:18:55 <tusho> RC/Funge is above CCBI1 because it'll be more useful for socket apps etc
14:18:56 <AnMaster> tusho, efunge is indeed not finished yet
14:18:58 <tusho> based on fizzie's experience
14:19:11 <tusho> Ideal situation, my ranking would be CCBI2, RC/Funge, CCBI1, [huge gaping chasm], cfunge.
14:19:45 <AnMaster> rc/funge is *less* conforming than ccbi: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-comparison.html
14:20:03 <AnMaster> tusho, can't see why you hate cfunge
14:20:15 <AnMaster> if you want unreadable source code you go for rc/funge
14:20:18 <tusho> AnMaster: I don't give a flying fuck about conforming, RC/Funge is the most useful for real apps due to its array of fingerprints.
14:20:41 <AnMaster> tusho, cfunge implements most of the fingerprints that ccbi1 does: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-comparison.html
14:20:55 <tusho> And RC/Funge still comes out on top.
14:21:12 <AnMaster> tusho, with a lot of useless and badly defined fingerprints
14:21:23 <tusho> And a lot of useful and well-defined ones, too.
14:21:33 <tusho> fungot runs on Rc/Funge and does it very well too.
14:21:37 <AnMaster> which ccbi and/or cfunge implements
14:22:00 <tusho> AnMaster: but cfunge is a retarded piece of crap, and you already know that that's my opinion
14:22:08 <tusho> and you have known that is my opinion for months
14:22:09 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't see *why* you think so
14:22:17 <tusho> AnMaster: then you haven't been listening very well
14:22:23 <tusho> also, just peeked at the rc/funge code, perfectly readable
14:22:33 <AnMaster> tusho, it is fast, I fixed my funge-space hash to have good performance
14:22:49 <AnMaster> tusho, not when I last looked, which was last week I looked at some fingerprint code
14:23:02 <tusho> Presumably because you aren't very good at reading C.
14:23:10 <tusho> It's regular, sane code.
14:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, I am, but I prefer well structured code with one indention style, K&R coding style or some slight variant of that
14:24:00 <tusho> It is well structured.
14:24:13 <AnMaster> tusho, but you still haven't said why you hate cfunge
14:24:20 <AnMaster> since the hash library have been fixed
14:24:26 <tusho> Yes, I have, over the course of many months, in great detail.
14:24:37 <AnMaster> tusho, "because I didn't fix hash library" yes
14:24:39 <tusho> I am not condensing all of those lines into one because it would be far too much of a lossy conversion.
14:24:42 <oklobol> tusho has already explained everything, there
14:24:43 <tusho> AnMaster: Where the fuck did you get that idea?
14:24:46 <oklobol> 's no use asking him anything
14:24:55 <tusho> I have mentioned the hash library like ONCE
14:24:56 <oklobol> (this goes for everything.)
14:24:58 <AnMaster> since you complained about that
14:25:27 <tusho> no, i didn't, you're hallucinating
14:25:41 <tusho> i know what i've said, thanks
14:25:54 <AnMaster> tusho, so you hate that I'm POSIX only too? well so is rc/funge
14:26:10 <tusho> No, I don't, now if you actually want to know what I said, grep tusho and cfunge in the logs.
14:26:14 <tusho> now i'm quite busy
14:36:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/DdE9wq23.html <-- hm, I'm not sure, and yes j isn't yet implemented, but that is an interesting way to fail
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14:47:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I still get that error with all GOOD before
14:47:45 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/FLYm0g77.html
14:47:49 -!- funktio has left (?).
14:47:50 <AnMaster> any clue what could be happening?
15:19:37 <AnMaster> ah it was broken flying wrapping
15:19:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, idea: report broken non-cardinal wrapping better
15:21:44 <tusho> broken non-cardinal wrapping
15:21:52 <tusho> it sounds like something out of star trek
15:27:05 <AnMaster> thought it actually means that funge-space wrapping is broken when ip doesn't move as in Befunge-93
15:30:38 <AnMaster> tusho, Now wrapping (at warp 9) in efunge works with a non-cardinal delta index in the warp core plasma.
15:30:52 <tusho> AnMaster: eject into HYPERSPACE!!
15:31:17 <AnMaster> hey hyperspace is star wars not star trek!
15:31:45 <Slereah> Hyperspace is in any and all works of hacks to explain FTL
15:32:24 <AnMaster> Slereah, Star Trek got wrap instead
15:32:35 <tusho> AnMaster: it is a SECRET facet of the TIME CUIBE
15:32:42 <tusho> warp is the EDUCATED LIE they tell you
15:32:46 <tusho> to hide TRUE HYPERSPACE
15:33:25 <AnMaster> allow travel between planets without changing crew all the time
15:33:32 <Slereah> It's just "Let's give the work to another universe"
15:33:46 <Slereah> That's the outsourcing of labor.
15:34:17 <AnMaster> Slereah, wrap in Star Trek works by <technobable>Using negative energy to compress the space-time itself, thus shortening the path you have to travel, in effect the ship travels at sub-FTL speeds</techobable>
15:34:45 <Slereah> Thank god the trekkie heard about the Alqubier propulsion to justify it!
15:34:58 <Slereah> Of course, it doesn't actually work, but it sounds moar scientific
15:35:21 <AnMaster> and if it worked it would still need a LOT more energy than can ever be contained in a ship
15:35:34 <Slereah> The Alqubierre propulsion is silly
15:35:46 <Slereah> It's based on making up a metric for space time.
15:36:00 <Slereah> Without any regard for the stress energy tensor
15:36:17 <AnMaster> just happen to have watched a lot of TNG and Voyager
15:36:50 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive
15:37:07 <tusho> NATURE'S 4 DAYS OF HARMONIOUS TIME CUBE ROTATION
15:37:28 <Slereah> -1 * -1 = 1 IS STUPID AND EVIL
15:37:33 <AnMaster> tusho, oh that sounds familiar..... not *THAT* crap surely
15:37:49 <tusho> AnMaster: ACADEMIC IS _EVIL_
15:37:54 <tusho> YOU HAVE BEEN EDUCATED *STUPID*
15:38:07 <AnMaster> oh my, I seen that crap website before once
15:38:31 <tusho> AnMaster: educators altere dyour mind, YOU CANNOT THINK opposite of what you were taught to think.
15:38:36 <Slereah> AnMaster : Search for "Time cube"
15:38:40 <AnMaster> it was just a lot of shouting, didn't even manage to get the point what it wanted to say across
15:39:05 <tusho> AnMaster: When the Sun shines upon Earth, 2 - major Time points are created on opposite sides of Earth - known as Midday and Midnight. Where the 2 major Time forces join, synergy creates 2 new minor Time points we recognize as Sunup and Sundown.
15:39:05 <tusho> The 4-equidistant Time points can be considered as Time Square imprinted upon the circle of Earth. In a single rotation of the Earth sphere, each Time corner point rotates through the other 3-corner Time points, thus creating 16 corners, 96 hours and 4-simultaneous 24 hour Days within a single rotation of Earth - equated to a Higher Order of Life Time Cube.
15:39:08 <AnMaster> Slereah, yes and it never explained in a clear way what it meant by "time cube" iirc
15:39:24 <tusho> AnMaster: YOU HAVE A CYCLOP PERSPECTIVE AND TAUGHT ANDROID MENTALITY - LOBOTOMIZED ANALYTICAL ABILITY
15:39:31 <Slereah> Don't ask insane people to explain themselves.
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15:40:31 <AnMaster> "thus creating 16 corners, 96 hours and 4-simultaneous 24 hour Days within a single rotation of Earth" <-- now that makes no sense
15:40:39 <tusho> AnMaster: YOU ARE EVIL
15:40:42 <AnMaster> but that bit makes even less sense
15:40:42 <tusho> AND EDUCATED STUPID
15:40:52 <tusho> omfg timecube.com is down
15:40:59 <tusho> GENE RAY WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU??????
15:41:30 <tusho> AnMaster: YOU HAVE KILLED THE WISEST HUMAN, YOU EVIL ACADEMIC
15:42:36 <AnMaster> you are free to go on with that silly spam, but please don't highlight me
15:42:50 <tusho> AnMaster: -1 * -1= +1 is WRONG, it is academic stupidity and is evil. The educated stupid should acknowledge the natural antipodes of +1 * +1 = +1 and -1 * -1 = -1 exist as plus and minus values of opposite creation - depicted by opposite sexes and opposite hemispheres.
15:43:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: idea: if non-cardinal wrapping doesn't work you can end up absolutely anywhere, there's nothing I can do about it
15:44:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but you could handle some common cases easily
15:44:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, applying b93 wrapping at f98 edge size
15:45:07 <AnMaster> err I mean: if X > MaxX -> X = MinX
15:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not as far as I know, but CLC-INTERCAL still supports Baudot and punched cards, and maintaining compatibility as far back as possible is a running INTERCAL in-joke.
15:45:50 <AnMaster> and same for if X < MinX -> X = MaxX
15:45:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you see what I mean
15:46:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so where does it end up in that case
15:46:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the basic algorithm I use for cardinal wrapping is: http://rafb.net/p/ZakhhS22.html
15:47:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, bouncing between u and o like this: http://rafb.net/p/FLYm0g77.html
15:47:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what would help is the next cell it hits, space included
15:48:04 <AnMaster> Slereah, Befunge way of saying, "moving north/south/west/east" and not diagonally
15:53:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/kOS6BT80.html
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16:00:27 <AnMaster> I forgot about them when planning the design
16:00:37 <AnMaster> probably because I don't use them a lot myself when coding funge
16:06:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: uploaded a Mycology which should catch that case now
16:07:59 <AnMaster> "Fixed: test for k with a negative count was expecting pre–2008–07–26 k behaviour." <-- what exactly would that mean?
16:08:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, k with negative reflect is what I implement iirc, and it is an UNDEF
16:08:45 <AnMaster> so how would it expect pre–2008–07–26?
16:09:06 <Deewiant> for instance in that when it says "pops more than the absolute value of the count" it would be off by one
16:09:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can/will you test that noncardinal wrapping again?
16:10:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you forgot one case: pushes "You are an UNDEF jerk, and be happy this isn't DeathStation 9000" on stack and reflects
16:10:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure in a bit, want to get the current change I'm working on done first
16:10:51 <Slereah> Don't you remember the LOVEMACHINE 9000?
16:10:51 <tusho> AnMaster: his langs end with 9000
16:10:54 <tusho> Love Machine 9000, etc
16:10:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeathStation_9000
16:11:38 <Slereah> How would you go about to parse a bunch of parenthesis in Scheme?
16:11:52 <Slereah> I'm trying to make a lang based on mu functions.
16:12:26 <Slereah> With 0, suc, projection, mu, and two functions : recursion and composition.
16:12:34 <Slereah> That way, everything can be written in one line
16:22:13 <Slereah> I could just use the syntax of Scheme
16:22:19 <Slereah> But it feels a little like cheating
17:17:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your mycology update works
17:17:54 <AnMaster> BAD: wraparound with non-cardinal delta doesn't work
17:17:54 <AnMaster> Instruction { is not implemented (at x=63 y=70).
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17:46:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Hm does { copy elements, or move them?
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17:48:03 <Deewiant> "transfers n elements from the SOSS to the TOSS"...
17:48:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "It copies these elements as a block, so order is preserved."
17:49:02 <Deewiant> '"Transfer" is used here in the sense of "move," not "copy": the original cells are removed.'
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17:52:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I swear lists:reverse/2 in stdlib of erlang was made for Stack Stacks as I implement them...
17:52:41 <AnMaster> > lists:reverse([1, 2, 3, 4], [a, b, c]).
17:52:57 <AnMaster> it reverses the first list and appends to second list to the end of the first one
17:53:37 <tusho> I'd expect lists:reverse([1,2,3,4],[a,b,c]) to return two values
17:53:42 <tusho> [4,3,2,1] and [c,b,a]
17:53:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um the ++ is rather ineffective in Erlang
17:53:54 <AnMaster> since lists are cons cells like in lisp
17:54:02 <tusho> AnMaster: same in haskell
17:54:04 <tusho> but ++ is efficient
17:54:09 <AnMaster> so accessing head is the effective way
17:54:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you think that that function doesn't do an append internally?
17:54:19 <AnMaster> the lists:reverse/2 is implemented internally yes
17:54:24 <tusho> Deewiant: he is thinking it'd be two traversions
17:54:27 <tusho> as in a non-lazy language
17:54:36 <tusho> but in haskell it's just one traverse like the erlang
17:54:47 <Deewiant> ah right, in a strict language it would be two traversals
17:55:12 <Deewiant> reverse x ++ y would traverse x twice in a strict language
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17:55:20 <AnMaster> I assume it does some strange magic internally in the runtime system
17:55:42 <tusho> AnMaster: he meant that lists:reverse will traverse it
17:55:46 <tusho> but you thought it'd traverse twice
17:55:50 <tusho> in Deewiant's version
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18:26:04 <Slereah2> "Artificial Bee Colony Algorithm (ABC) is an optimization algorithm based on the intelligent foraging behaviour of honey bee swarm, proposed by Karaboga in 2005 "
18:27:45 <AnMaster> Slereah2, I'd love to hear what it is about
18:27:57 <Slereah2> http://mainegov-images.informe.org/agriculture/pi/images/bee.jpg
18:28:04 <Slereah2> I mean, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_Bee_Colony_Algorithm
18:32:40 <AnMaster> Slereah2, Seems rather far-fetched
18:33:21 <Slereah2> Let's make a language out of it.
18:33:38 <AnMaster> you finished your scheme variant?
18:35:53 <oklobol> how is the bee algo different from local beam search ?
18:36:06 <AnMaster> can't see how that ends up as school
18:36:25 <AnMaster> related to erlang compiled .beam file?
18:36:43 <oklobol> local beam search is a long story
18:36:52 <AnMaster> obviously searching for a compiled module, ignoring any nfs mounts!
18:41:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I hate stackstack since it really mess up the whole code
18:43:18 <Deewiant> consider writing it differently so it doesn't mess it all up :-P
18:44:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, having a CONS list as a stack would be sane, right?
18:44:40 <AnMaster> now erlang is single-assignment
18:44:53 <AnMaster> which means if I change stack I need to put it back into the stack stack list
18:45:04 <tusho> my submission is #1 on programming.reddit
18:45:14 <tusho> ... and #7 on reddit proper
18:45:22 <AnMaster> tusho, and that submission is?
18:45:27 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/71e5c/sketchpad_an_advanced_painting_program_from_1963/
18:48:30 <AnMaster> tusho, interesting, but horrible sound
18:48:38 <tusho> s a video from the 1980s.
18:48:42 <tusho> What the heck did you expect?
18:48:50 <tusho> A video from the 1980s showing footage from the 1960s.
18:49:00 <AnMaster> tusho, better, since professional movies back then had better sound
18:49:07 <tusho> AnMaster: It's just someone speaking, jeez.
18:52:30 <AnMaster> tusho, cool and I think some of those features may not be found in modern systems really
18:52:35 <AnMaster> at least not systems I work on
18:52:36 <tusho> nope, unfortunately not
18:52:44 <tusho> it looks totally neato, i'd love to try it out
18:52:52 <tusho> i wonder what the constraint programming language looked like
18:52:55 <tusho> AnMaster: well, it was a 2d system
18:52:57 <AnMaster> tusho, I got no clue what sort of emulator you would need
18:52:59 <tusho> looks vector-based
18:53:10 <AnMaster> well yes I'd say it was vector based too
18:53:11 <tusho> AnMaster: probably doesn't exist. I'll just get my time machine
18:54:20 <AnMaster> definitely not based on pixels I'd say
18:54:36 <tusho> AnMaster: well duh
18:54:40 <tusho> there weren't any pixel-based screens then
18:54:52 <AnMaster> I was just being Captain Obvious
18:54:53 <tusho> dunno what that output is, though
18:55:05 <tusho> the way the lines wave a bit seem to suggest so
18:55:29 <AnMaster> "Sketchpad was the first program ever to utilize a complete graphical user interface, using an x-y point plotter display"
18:55:33 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad
19:00:52 <tusho> Well, I sure got lucky. :p
19:02:01 <AnMaster> tusho, and tomorrow it is gone again...
19:02:50 <tusho> no, I just wanted to share it :)
19:02:54 <tusho> Holy shiet, #1 on programming.reddit
19:03:04 <tusho> Still #4 on reddit.com.
19:03:11 <AnMaster> tusho, yet you are about how high it ends up?
19:03:17 <tusho> AnMaster: no, i'm just surprised
19:03:19 <AnMaster> <tusho> my submission is #1 on programming.reddit
19:03:26 <tusho> Yes, I was surprised.
19:03:33 <tusho> Well, I forgot. :P
19:03:39 <tusho> Anyway, I'm just amused.
19:03:50 <tusho> As I don't think I've had anything on the front page before.
19:04:03 <tusho> (If I were a karma whore, then the reason would be karma, but I don't care. It's just a number in my profile.)
19:18:14 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg <-- do anyone else think the name QSXGA is silly?
19:19:35 <tusho> AnMaster: IDKWYATAITIAAVRN
19:24:23 <tusho> AnMaster: I Don't Know What You Are Talking About I Think It's A (?) Very Reasonable Name
19:25:15 <AnMaster> according to that chart, my current screen is SXGA+, and my old was SXGA
19:25:58 <tusho> iMac 20" screen, matte, very nice lighting
19:26:08 <tusho> AnMaster: i did too but os x lends itself very well for widescreen usage
19:26:29 <AnMaster> well, my current screen is 21" and matte
19:26:51 <tusho> AnMaster: yea, mac displays generally have higher dpi than most others
19:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how large would UGA be?
19:27:18 <tusho> AnMaster: it's on the chart...
19:28:12 <AnMaster> also I have seen other formats
19:28:55 <AnMaster> I remember seeing some greyscale-only screen with a insanely high resolution, extremely expensive, target at hospitals and such
19:29:14 <AnMaster> it was a standing format, that is taller than it was wide
19:31:58 <AnMaster> yay I solved the stack stack issue I think
19:32:03 <tusho> #3 on reddit, yikes.
19:32:10 <tusho> I only submitted it an hour ago.
19:35:25 <AnMaster> in fact I will need no code changes except changing -import(fstack, [push/2, peek/1, pop/1, popVec/1, dup/1, swap/1]). to -import(fstackstack, [push/2, peek/1, pop/1, popVec/1, dup/1, swap/1]).
19:38:38 <AnMaster> basically then end up as wrappers like:
19:38:39 <AnMaster> push([TOSS|T] = StackStack, V) ->
19:38:39 <AnMaster> NewTOSS = fstack:push(TOSS, V),
19:42:02 <tusho> "I'd like to see some evidence this isn't fake..
19:42:03 <tusho> Anyone have citations for this?
19:42:03 <tusho> That computer seemed too high rez and the touch screen tech seemed too advanced for 67."
19:42:14 <tusho> bet he thinks it's a pixel based screen
19:42:21 <tusho> wow, apparently sketchpad was written in simula
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19:55:56 <AnMaster> is there any modern compiler for that language?
19:57:09 <tusho> Simula 67 introduced objects, classes, subclasses, virtual methods, coroutines, discrete event simulation, and features garbage collection.
19:57:15 <tusho> Major implementations GNU Cim
19:57:19 <tusho> http://www.gnu.org/software/cim/cim.html
19:57:31 <tusho> OutText ("Hello World!");
19:57:47 <tusho> the syntax is quite sane, very readable
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20:16:56 <tusho> AnMaster: duh, it fluctuates
20:17:02 <AnMaster> and number 1 is way way higher
20:17:16 <tusho> AnMaster: it isn't based solely on score.
20:17:31 <tusho> see, e.g. the 1000+ point submission below me
20:17:53 <tusho> it's based on a combination of score, hotness, controversialness, and a bunch of other factors that reddit won't reveal to us because it's their business model
20:18:50 <AnMaster> who decides "controversialness"
20:19:03 <AnMaster> and is that a good or bad thing
20:19:21 <tusho> AnMaster: if an item has 500 upvotes and 500 downvotes, it'd be 100% controversial
20:19:40 <AnMaster> tusho, and does that count as a + or a -?
20:19:59 <tusho> AnMaster: + i think, but obviously if you have 300 upvotes and 310 downvotes the - comign from that will probably cancel it out
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20:37:59 <AnMaster> BAD: { transfers cells incorrectly
20:37:59 <AnMaster> 10 0 0 Stopping due to fear of corrupt stack stack
20:38:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does that mean?
20:38:28 <AnMaster> would be useful saying stuff like:
20:46:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, IMO the current error is unusuable
20:56:25 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2058.html
20:59:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah found the issue, I pushed offset before I popped for transfer
20:59:40 <AnMaster> now code locks up after "GOOD: } transfers cells correctly"
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21:12:40 <tusho> "This is totally Sketchpaded. I can tell by the vectors and having played a lot of Tempest in my time."
21:13:09 <Figs> I just saw that on reddit
21:13:12 <tusho> i'm the one who ordered you to come in here :P
21:13:23 <tusho> AnMaster: a regular in 2007ish
21:13:30 <Figs> I am Figs! (*muahahahha*)
21:13:35 <AnMaster> <tusho> "This is totally Sketchpaded. I can tell by the vectors and having played a lot of Tempest in my time." <-- don't make sense
21:13:38 <tusho> AnMaster: yes it does
21:13:51 <tusho> it's a play on the meme "This is photoshopped, I can tell by the pixels and having seen a few shops in my time"
21:14:09 <Figs> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOZqRJzE8xg <-- sketchpad
21:14:39 <AnMaster> Figs, so what esolangs do you use?
21:14:45 <tusho> Figs: i submitted that link
21:14:48 <tusho> so everyone here has seen it :P
21:15:03 <AnMaster> yes he told us like 15 times already
21:15:11 <tusho> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(arcade_game)
21:15:23 <Figs> Actually, I didn't notice that you'd submitted it
21:15:41 <tusho> Figs: mwahahaha! i am internet famous! or something
21:16:45 <Figs> AnMaster: I've played around with BF a bit, and a few other things that aren't coming to mind, but mostly I come here to bother people about language design/implementation and for random insanity/fun :)
21:17:00 <Figs> I also used to enjoy obfuscating C++
21:17:20 <Figs> (Which I've been told, on a couple occasions, is redundant...)
21:18:02 <tusho> AnMaster here's specialty is copypasting code from CCBI and then microoptimizing parts that don't need to be to make his funge-98 interpreter cfunge.
21:18:17 <AnMaster> [{esoteric, [Befunge, Brainfuck]}, {nonesoteric, [C, Erlang, Bash]}
21:18:22 <AnMaster> [{esoteric, [Befunge, Brainfuck]}, {nonesoteric, [C, Erlang, Bash]}]
21:18:56 <tusho> no, I'm not lying, and i don't hate you
21:19:01 <tusho> i think you're annoying, sure
21:19:07 <tusho> but i don't hate you
21:19:16 <tusho> whatever you say...
21:19:28 <AnMaster> tusho, I did base a few fingerprints on CCBI ones where the spec was unclear
21:19:51 <AnMaster> but nothing in the core is based on it, or is based on discussions with CCBI author or similiar
21:20:04 <AnMaster> and most fingerprints aren't based on it
21:20:08 <Figs> What's CCBI? :P
21:20:15 <tusho> Figs: concurrent conforming befunge interpreter
21:20:45 <AnMaster> (a befunge-98 interpreter coded in Erlang)
21:20:56 <tusho> efunge is exactly like cfunge except it's written in erlang and he can't use _posix_fadvise or _posix_fuzzy_logic_core_seed.
21:21:12 <Figs> AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/by2Tg875.html
21:21:19 <AnMaster> tusho, and you are still lying
21:21:25 <Figs> example of some of the kinds of crap I used to make... :P
21:21:26 <tusho> AnMaster: no: you disagree with me
21:21:31 <AnMaster> I use no posix_* in file reading any more
21:21:36 <AnMaster> so it is a lie to say I use them
21:21:45 <tusho> AnMaster: it still exemplifies the general style.
21:21:57 <tusho> AnMaster: he wasn't replying to you.
21:22:02 <AnMaster> though it is certainly obfuscated
21:22:06 <tusho> he was showing some obfuscated c++ that he made a while back
21:22:06 <Figs> I said C++, not C
21:22:16 <tusho> that he mentioned when saying his esolangs
21:22:31 <tusho> AnMaster: you don't have to be able to read it to see the obfuscation
21:22:32 <AnMaster> tusho, "<Figs> AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/by2Tg875.html" "<tusho> AnMaster: he wasn't replying to you." <-- really?
21:22:37 <AnMaster> seems like a *highlight* to me
21:22:38 <tusho> AnMaster: addressing you != replying to you
21:22:52 <AnMaster> tusho, "<AnMaster> though it is certainly obfuscated" "<tusho> AnMaster: you don't have to be able to read it to see the obfuscation"
21:23:15 <tusho> AnMaster: i'm saying that "well I can't read C++" was a silly statement as I doubt anyone but figs can read that
21:23:29 <Figs> Oh, you were trying to explain the languages you know with your [{( messages... :P
21:23:34 <Figs> I didn't catch that
21:23:41 <Figs> I thought you were arguing with tusho
21:23:49 <tusho> Figs: we're always arguing, generally
21:24:05 <tusho> Figs: he's just showing off that he knows erlang.
21:24:28 <oklopol> tusho is always arguing with someone
21:24:36 <tusho> oklopol: shut up, you're wrong
21:24:36 <oklopol> we're not as clever as him
21:24:47 <AnMaster> Figs, actually you need to quote them as they start in uppercase
21:24:49 <AnMaster> 3> [{esoteric, ['Befunge', 'Brainfuck']}, {nonesoteric, ['C', 'Erlang', 'Bash']}].
21:24:49 <AnMaster> [{esoteric,['Befunge','Brainfuck']},
21:24:49 <AnMaster> {nonesoteric,['C','Erlang','Bash']}]
21:24:49 <oklopol> he ends up correcting us all the time
21:24:50 <Figs> Did you ever play my song, oklopol?
21:25:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, except he is wrong a lot of the time
21:25:14 <oklopol> Figs: no :) but i'm getting my piano back soon, perhaps i could retry
21:25:25 <tusho> AnMaster: you're wrong a lot of the time too
21:25:45 <oklopol> currently i just have my synth, and i'm too lazy to upload any good sounds on it
21:25:49 <Figs> I'm always wrong, except when I'm not.
21:25:57 <oklopol> so it just has square, which is a bit chaotic with polyphonic music
21:27:00 <oklopol> where tusho is wrong, it's irrelevant whether he was right or not
21:27:13 <tusho> <oklopol> where tusho is wrong, it's irrelevant whether he was right or not
21:27:45 <oklopol> btw, just got the art of computer programming trilogy from amazon
21:28:11 <tusho> but it costs like £100
21:28:13 <oklopol> i just browsed through the pages and drooled
21:28:22 <oklopol> so, the books are really unusable now
21:28:26 <fizzie> I've got a box of those too; a friend ordered two and sold me the other one.
21:28:51 <oklopol> i also bought a haskell programming book, but it was of noobial quality
21:29:21 <Figs> One of these days, I'm going to have to force myself to actually learn Haskell :P
21:30:17 <Figs> Although, I've been learning x86 assembly lately...
21:34:04 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/71e5c/sketchpad_an_advanced_painting_program_from_1963/c05ffid i bring so many people together <3
21:34:09 <tusho> oklopol: which book did you get?
21:34:17 <tusho> real world haskell also owns
21:34:51 <tusho> oklopol: Yet Another Haskell Tutorial
21:35:01 <oklopol> this one is "programming in haskell"
21:35:16 <Figs> I now have the weirdest craving for bbq sauce on pizza :|
21:35:30 <tusho> ima ask #haskell what they think of that book oklopol :P
21:35:31 <Figs> Unfortunately, I have neither...
21:36:01 <oklopol> i'll read it anyway, since i bought it, though, of course
21:36:21 <tusho> hmm, apparently dcoutts reccomends it, dcoutts is pretty cool
21:36:29 <tusho> maybe you just think it's noobish :-P
21:36:58 <tusho> oklopol: <newsham> graham hutton? i like the book, but its a little thin.
21:37:04 <oklopol> i just took a quick glance
21:37:27 <tusho> <newsham> RWH [ed: real world haskell] is broader, with more emphasis on practical stuff
21:37:44 <oklopol> and i don't care for practicality, of course
21:37:51 <oklopol> as if i'd ever *use* it ;;)
21:37:53 <tusho> oklopol: yea, i just told them that :D
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21:38:06 <tusho> if you could destroy every practical computer in the world I bet you would
21:38:12 <tusho> <newsham> tusho: i like the book, i was particularly happy that he covered some equational reasoning/proof stuff in it
21:38:25 <oerjan> he really wants a book called "How to write completely unreadable Haskell"
21:38:27 <oklopol> if no one had computers, i'd gladly live without one
21:39:13 <tusho> oerjan: s/unreadable/oko/
21:39:20 <tusho> get your terms right
21:39:22 <tusho> there is a difference
21:39:38 <oerjan> that might nearly be possible
21:40:03 <oerjan> oko o = o (okoko o) okokoko
21:40:25 <tusho> that's not very okoy
21:40:29 <tusho> okoy that would be
21:40:47 <tusho> oko=\o->flip o okokoko$okoko o
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21:48:50 <AnMaster> BAD: 101-{} doesn't leave stack top as 0 and next as 1
21:48:55 <AnMaster> care to say what it does instead?
21:48:59 <AnMaster> BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack
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21:54:08 <AnMaster> v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4
21:57:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect misaligned code at:
21:58:22 <AnMaster> the v above that 4 seems to point to wrong place
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22:05:41 <Figs> HelloooooooooooO! I have returned!
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22:26:11 <Figs> I just killed windows explorer
22:26:52 <tusho> Figs: run it again
22:26:57 <tusho> there's a "run task" in the task manager
22:27:03 <Figs> Yeah, I know :P
22:31:44 <Figs> careful now, lest you get addicted.
22:32:14 <tusho> i just find it amusing
22:32:35 <oerjan> addicted to being #1 on reddit seems hard
22:33:06 <oerjan> could easily get ugly, if there was more than one addict
22:33:48 <oerjan> maybe that's why so many places on the internet are ugly
22:34:59 <Figs> Like this one: http://www.ugliestwebsite.com/ ?
22:35:09 <oerjan> (or so i've heard, i don't tend to stay at such places)
22:35:54 <oerjan> no not that kind of ugly
22:36:12 <oerjan> with the exception of those that are addicted to getting on that website :D
22:49:20 <tusho> it wasn't in simula
22:49:21 <tusho> it predated simula
22:49:23 <tusho> [[ Sketchpad’s implementation of class and instance-based inheritance (though not called objects) predated Simula by several years.]]
22:49:29 <tusho> sketchpad had the first OOP system.
22:50:08 <tusho> so it invented... non-procedural programming, vector graphics programs, pen-operated touch screens, OOP, what else
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23:33:12 <pikhq> I seem to recall that someone here was retargeting GCC to Brainfuck...
23:37:00 * pikhq wonders how far he's gotten with that
23:40:37 <oerjan> With Great Power comes Great Insanity
23:41:13 <oerjan> darn, there _was_ a tvtrope by that exact name
23:41:37 * oerjan blames his subconscious
23:42:42 <tusho> pikhq: He basically has everything done apart from actually generating the BF code.
23:42:55 <tusho> He has an intermediate language called ABI (for maximum nameclash) that can be assembled into BF pretty trivially.
23:43:07 <tusho> He just has to fix up the last bits of that then write the converter (apparently very trivial)
23:44:00 <oklopol> i wouldn't say scetchpad invented oop
23:44:26 <tusho> oklopol: why not? It's from 1963.
23:44:33 <oklopol> well i just saw the youtube clip
23:44:52 <oklopol> i wouldn't say it invented oop, because it... didn't
23:45:11 <tusho> oklopol: duh not in its UI
23:45:13 <tusho> but it was coded with oop
23:45:18 <tusho> except it wasn't called that, ofc
23:45:24 <tusho> since it was the first to do it
23:45:32 <oklopol> well as i said, i only know what i saw in the clip
23:46:00 <oklopol> i thought it was a bit far-fetched to call the ui a language :)
23:46:26 <tusho> oklopol: the language to specify constraints (e.g. to make the lines parallel and such) was a full language
23:46:27 <oerjan> maybe it was a sign language
23:47:00 <pikhq> tusho: That's fairly impressive.
23:47:17 <tusho> sketchpad or gcc-bf
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23:57:22 <oerjan> is this genuine maya mayo?
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08:55:01 <fizzie> I'm not completely certain that bot works correctly. This is what I got when I tried to test it via privmsg:
08:55:12 <fizzie> 10:54:16 <fizzie> Hey, fungot, does your nonsense generation work?
08:55:12 <fizzie> 10:54:16 <fungot> fizzie: i think not.
08:55:12 <fungot> fizzie: heh. i don't think
08:55:13 <fungot> fizzie: 30min sounds like a plural
08:55:41 <fizzie> fungot: Oh! So you said "i think not" because you actually do not think at all. Now I get it.
08:55:42 <fungot> fizzie: i was wishing we could use only 1-ary functions and currying really mutually exclusive?
09:04:18 <oklopol> where was the source again?
09:04:45 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt is most of it.
09:04:47 <fungot> oklopol: take the last three days or so
09:05:18 <oklopol> i like the love triangle there
09:05:30 <fizzie> It's not the most current version, I think I got rid of NULL fingerprint usage at least.
09:05:38 <oklopol> seems it's some kind of tokenizer?
09:06:03 <fizzie> The triangle is the token-to-punctuation code of the nonsense generator.
09:06:34 <oklopol> you should add some more triangles
09:06:38 <fizzie> The first 16 or so tokens are handled by going to that 'j' and then letting that pick one of the 'v's there.
09:07:53 <fizzie> There's another jump table -like structure around line 264, for the brainfuck bytecode thing, but it's significantly less triangley.
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09:11:16 <fizzie> I don't really know why I bothered writing 200000 as "2aaaaa*****" when I could've gotten the reasonably close 2^18 with something like "8:*::**", a lot shorter.
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09:58:07 <oklobol> so, how about that mips in wireworld
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10:31:02 <AnMaster> <fizzie> The first 16 or so tokens are handled by going to that 'j' and then letting that pick one of the 'v's there.
10:32:12 <fizzie> There's another (a vertically oriented one) in the brainfuck bytecode interpreter.
10:32:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, why do you use a triangle btw?
10:33:20 <AnMaster> you could just write the code paths vertically
10:33:40 <AnMaster> and you seem to go right up again
10:33:43 <fizzie> It's pretty that way, and there was empty space. :p
10:34:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, you know that you are probably the only person who can read the code?
10:34:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you got a lot of trailing whitespaces on the line below "looptest"
10:34:23 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can read it all that well, since I haven't worked with it in a week or so.
10:34:47 <fizzie> Yes, there was probably something on that line and I erased only the visible parts.
10:34:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, you should document the code structure, I mean a diagram showing "brainfuck region" and so on
10:37:13 <fizzie> I probably would've documented it better if I had an editor which could attach comments to arbitrary regions of a text file.
10:38:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, I meant somewhat like the image on http://www.quinapalus.com/wires11.html
10:39:27 <fizzie> I guess I could do something like that, although it really isn't large enough to create a really impressive picture, and it's just tall and thin, not very square-like at all.
10:40:42 <fizzie> The "no more than 80 columns" rule I've followed has maybe made it easier to edit, but it's disappointingly linear code now.
10:51:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, want to see one of my own boringly linear test suites?
10:51:49 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/VQGDpf66.html
10:53:09 <oklopol> "detroppus ton" i first thought this was latin or something
10:54:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, you clearly aren't seasoned in reading funge
10:54:04 <oklopol> i want to project that wireworld program on my wall
10:54:29 <oklopol> took like a second to realize it's a gnirts
10:54:47 <oklopol> but no i'm not seasoned to reading it
10:55:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, ever looked at mycology source?
10:55:28 <oklopol> that's really the only funge program i've read parts of
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11:27:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah cause of infinite loop was u popping from TOSS to SOSS when positive instead of the other way
11:28:08 <AnMaster> still weird loop it ended up in
11:28:20 <AnMaster> BAD: 101-{} doesn't leave stack top as 0 and next as 1
11:28:20 <AnMaster> BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack
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11:28:27 <AnMaster> and I still don't understand that
11:28:43 <AnMaster> would be useful to print what happened instead
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12:06:09 <Slereah_> "# Any "if" statement requires at least 14,000 subconditions. "
12:06:22 <Slereah_> Silly Emplosions looks a little too silly.
12:06:38 <ais523> Silly Emplosions seems to have the same attitude as INTERCAL
12:06:44 <ais523> just without the need to be practical too
12:08:06 <tusho> ais523: I am going to write that autogreeter now, because I want to, and you have inspired me.
12:08:06 * ais523 is reading about the whole Firefox 3 EULA thing
12:08:27 <ais523> it seems the EULA is there to protect their trademarks, among other things
12:08:34 <ais523> and Canonical and Mozilla have got into a row about it
12:09:18 <tusho> ais523: i've decided that i really don't like mozilla
12:09:23 <tusho> their attitude really sucks
12:09:38 <ais523> yes, it's annoying me quickly too
12:09:48 <tusho> ais523: i have maintained for a while that they're no more a free software group than Sun or IBM or Apple
12:09:56 <tusho> but people just tended to ignore those kind of remarks
12:10:00 <tusho> now it seems more are listening...
12:10:02 <Slereah_> http://nukees.com/comics/nukees20080915.gif
12:12:07 <tusho> ais523: MWAHAHA! I HAVE CONQUERED APPLESCRIPT AND "hi ais523.scpt" VERILY EXISTS
12:12:08 <Slereah_> We've got CS class again this year I think D:
12:12:23 <tusho> here's the cringeworthy code: [[using terms from application "Colloquy"
12:12:23 <tusho> on member joined m in room
12:12:23 <tusho> if m's name is "ais523" then
12:12:23 <tusho> tell room to send message "hi ais523"
12:12:26 <tusho> end using terms from]]
12:12:42 <ais523> that is so AppleScript
12:12:53 <ais523> it's one of those languages which is instantly recognisable
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12:15:25 <ais523> tusho: do you want me to /cycle to test?
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12:16:42 <tusho> ugh, where IS the scripts menu
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12:19:01 <tusho> ais523: any gcc-bf news?
12:19:04 <tusho> pikhq was asking yesterday
12:19:15 <ais523> tusho: I've done all the easy parts, just a few hard parts left
12:19:18 <ais523> and haven't really tested anything
12:19:30 <tusho> (pretty eventful day actually: Figs from circa 2007 was here and I got a submission to #1 place on reddit :P)
12:19:50 <ais523> also, what submission?
12:19:57 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/71e5c/sketchpad_an_advanced_painting_program_from_1963/
12:20:07 <tusho> the CAD-ish program that invented OOP,
12:20:09 <tusho> non-functional languages,
12:20:18 <tusho> and a metric fuckton of other stuff
12:20:29 <tusho> the first comment there (a quote from the video) is nice: ""How could you do [all this] in one year?" "I didn't know it was hard.""
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12:55:52 <tusho> http://www.webfoundation.org/news/2008/09/welcome-to-the-world-wide-web-foundation.html Neat. What does it do.
12:57:46 <ais523> tusho: site times out for me
12:57:51 <tusho> "The World Wide Web Foundation seeks to advance One Web that is free and open, to expand the Web's capability and robustness, and to extend the Web's benefits to all people on the planet. The Web Foundation brings together business leaders, technology innovators, academia, government, NGOs, and experts in many fields to tackle challenges that, like the Web, are global in scale."
12:57:58 <tusho> I guess that's good. A bit vague, but sure, whatever.
12:58:07 <tusho> (Tim Berners Lee is a co-foundery thingy)
12:58:23 <ais523> sorry, it's just the name reminded me of the OpenDocument Foundation
12:58:32 <ais523> who were a few guys who came up out of nowhere
12:58:41 <ais523> and then decided they weren't supporting ODF any more
12:59:27 <tusho> 'Steve became CEO of the World Wide Web Foundation in September 2008.'
12:59:29 <tusho> it was just founded you idiots
12:59:35 <tusho> you can't 'become' it
13:00:17 <tusho> ais523: From the site for Helvetica the film
13:00:19 <tusho> p.body { font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans; }
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13:14:13 <AnMaster> yay efunge almost pass mycology now, just a few details about y left
13:14:19 <AnMaster> basically, command line and env
13:16:07 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/Qj6DvB92.html
13:16:53 <AnMaster> the indention got some issue with y, it is different if I run efunge freestanding instead of under the erlang shell
13:23:21 <ais523> AnMaster: all the easy bits are finished, there are several hard bits left
13:23:33 <ais523> and it isn't really called anything stable atm
13:24:11 <tusho> http://www.djangopony.com/ Django (python web framework) pony.
13:24:54 <tusho> (Follow up: http://hackety.org/2008/09/15/documentsRevealDjangoPonyTailOfLies.html)
13:26:32 <tusho> obviously sketchpadded though
13:27:27 <tusho> AnMaster: no. sketchpadded
13:27:37 <tusho> you can tell from the parallel lines
13:36:21 <tusho> AnMaster: why is known for his bizzare hand-drawn stuff, though, yes
13:36:43 <tusho> his old site had "code in images" like:
13:36:53 <tusho> http://redhanded.hobix.com/bits/gem_mirror_only.html, http://redhanded.hobix.com/cult/ahaNoticeTheExpandoWhichPrecludes.html, http://redhanded.hobix.com/bits/theHeartOfTryRuby.html
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14:03:21 <ais523> tusho: someone /msged me in NetHack, thinking it was about hacking
14:03:35 <ais523> so they asked me if I knew anything about hacking
14:03:39 <ais523> I said not that I'd tell anyone over IRC
14:03:47 <ais523> so they said they had Messenger too...
14:04:05 <tusho> ais523: aw, you should have pretended you thought he meant hacking as in the non-cracking sense
14:04:46 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you make plural of gnirts?
14:04:57 <ais523> AnMaster: gnirtses is about the best you can get
14:05:06 <ais523> within normal English pluralising rules
14:10:47 <ais523> fizzie: that would be the plural of gnirtsy
14:10:59 <ais523> on the other hand, it's not the sort of word which pluralises very well at all
14:14:18 <tusho> aoidajsiojasiodhaiusdhuadjs
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14:23:04 <oklobol> actually didn't work that well because no third s was added
14:23:20 <oklobol> funny how i thought there would be one but didn't put it there
14:35:03 <AnMaster> well I just needed a name for a function to push a list of gnirts in efunge
14:39:11 <AnMaster> bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/efunge/b98 efunge98
14:39:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: for 101-{} and the others, the whole point of printing the problematic code is that you can do "echo '101-{}@' > foo.b98 && run-interpreter foo.b98"
14:40:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and the u got direction messed up -> infinite loop issue?
14:40:12 <Deewiant> and before you ask me about it again, yes there is no corresponding GOOD for that and the next test :-P
14:40:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: probably fixed in the update I did this morning?
14:40:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: a 'v' going to nowhere, right?
14:40:51 <AnMaster> not going to mess with u code again
14:41:08 <AnMaster> stackstack and y are the ugliest bits of code I have
14:41:28 <Deewiant> you haven't done fingerprints then yet, I suppose? ;-)
14:41:42 <AnMaster> nor am I sure how I would do it
14:42:00 <ais523> hmm... I'm going to have to write asmfunge at this rate
14:42:15 <AnMaster> but see the bzr link I posted a few lines above if you are interested!
14:42:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it doesn't implement tio= either
14:42:48 <AnMaster> and I'm not going to work more on it today
14:43:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, an odd bug is that indention for mycology's y output differ between freestanding and running inside the erlang shell
14:43:18 <AnMaster> can't figure out the cause of that
14:43:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: s/indention/indentation/ btw
14:43:52 <Deewiant> I've seen you make that mistake a couple of times so I figured I'd correct you :-)
14:43:57 <ais523> Deewiant: does Mycology indent with tabs?
14:44:04 <ais523> if so that might be the reason
14:44:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I use io:format in both cases, so I don't see why it would mangle tabs with erl -no_shell and not mangle them when starting from inside shell
14:44:58 <ais523> AnMaster: it's possible that the tabstops are different in the two situations
14:45:27 <Deewiant> of course it tabstops differ the indentation doesn't, it's still 1 or 2 tabs :-P
14:47:33 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant the two ways of running below each other: http://rafb.net/p/GSynYV92.html
14:48:26 <Deewiant> rafb eats tabs so that's not very informational
14:48:33 <ais523> it seems that you have a tabstop at 1 the second way of running
14:48:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well so does my terminal when I copy paste with select
14:48:54 <AnMaster> I don't think the erlang interactive shell even works if you redirect it
14:49:19 <ais523> AnMaster: does it work over ssh?
14:49:30 <ais523> if so, ssh into your own computer and redirect that via tee
14:49:54 <ais523> ssh localhost | tee filename
14:49:55 <AnMaster> but ssh simulates a terminal afaik
14:49:59 <ais523> (sorry, corrected version)
14:50:08 <ais523> would mean that you'd get the output in filename as well as onscreen
14:50:09 <AnMaster> well I used erlang over ssh even
14:50:18 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't tee buffer output?
14:50:19 <ais523> so that's one way to capture the output
14:50:28 <ais523> AnMaster: only to the file, not to stdout I think
14:50:42 <ais523> at least not if stdout's a terminal
14:50:53 <ais523> OTOH the /input/ to tee might be buffered, which could be a problem
14:50:57 <AnMaster> when I redirected the freestanding output to a file, it contained tab chars
14:51:14 <AnMaster> though cfunge in same terminal give normal tabs
14:51:54 <AnMaster> I guess my terminal settings have got fucked up somehow
14:52:32 <AnMaster> well yes was just that terminal
14:52:49 <ais523> although I still have no idea how you managed to set a tabstop in column 1
14:52:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw apart from getting env vars the program is fully portable I think
14:53:14 <AnMaster> I need to use os:get_env() for environment vars
14:53:20 <AnMaster> so that may or may not work on other OS
14:53:31 <AnMaster> ais523, catting a binary file or something like that I bet
14:53:47 <ais523> do you often cat binary files?
14:53:55 <ais523> if so, the "reset" command is very useful to know
14:54:07 <AnMaster> but as I said, reset fixed the tab stop
14:54:13 <AnMaster> but I probably did cat one by mistake
14:54:21 <ais523> before I learnt about reset I used to cat /dev/random to reset the terminal
14:54:31 <ais523> if you did it often enough the terminal normally ended up sane by chance eventually
14:54:34 <AnMaster> ais523, that is likely to mess it up even more
14:54:44 <ais523> but I didn't know that at the time
14:55:00 <ais523> and mostly it was about getting the terminal out of high-bit-set mode
14:55:09 <ais523> the resulting terminals often gave curses a field day, though
14:55:14 <ais523> and messed up ls output from time to time
14:55:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I think efunge qualifies for mycology results page, though a release will have to wait a bit
14:55:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and it's the first bignum one
14:57:20 <AnMaster> wait I will change fingerprint to make use of bignum, I think that is valid
14:57:49 <ais523> heh, there should be a bignum fingerprint with a name like "BIGNUM"
14:57:56 <ais523> so you need 48-bit or better ints to use it...
14:58:07 <AnMaster> ais523, no need, since all cells are bignum here
14:58:19 <ais523> AnMaster: I was speaking in general
14:58:30 <AnMaster> "efunge - A bignum funge interpreter in Erlang" for fingerprint
14:58:52 <ais523> some ridiculously large number
14:59:23 <AnMaster> "efunge - A BIGNUM Befunge-98 interpreter in Erlang"
14:59:44 -!- jix has joined.
15:03:28 <AnMaster> 13> io:format("~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~.16B~n", "efunge - A BIGNUM Befunge-98 interpreter in Erlang").
15:03:28 <AnMaster> 6566756E6765202D2041204249474E554D20426566756E67652D393820696E74657270726574657220696E2045726C616E67
15:03:57 <AnMaster> so 16#6566756E6765202D2041204249474E554D20426566756E67652D393820696E74657270726574657220696E2045726C616E67
15:04:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you think about that for handprint?
15:04:57 <AnMaster> That the interpreter's handprint is 1022815351171939080750602515080902596655856329413174779991860562785344354620645109770120275823379669394014875628110704231
15:05:38 <ais523> gah, you beat me to it
15:05:53 <ais523> calculating that handprint
15:06:11 <ais523> I was just looking up how to get a character code in Haskell...
15:06:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I generated the format
15:06:54 <AnMaster> using lists:seq() and then lists:map()
15:07:07 <AnMaster> since in erlang a string is just a list of integers
15:07:47 <AnMaster> it makes a lot of funge stuff a lot simpler
15:07:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I sort of think that handprints should be as small as possible so that you can test for them portably
15:07:51 <ais523> AnMaster: a string is a list of char in Haskell
15:07:57 <ais523> and I can't remember the function to convert a char to an integer
15:08:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hehe ok, but it would be fun
15:08:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still the long handprint is much much more fun!
15:08:31 <Deewiant> http://haskell.org/hoogle/?hoogle=Char+-%3E+Int
15:08:52 <ais523> Deewiant: how do you cast an Int to an Integer in Haskell, then?
15:09:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and you could test for it, if you overflow you know it can't be it!
15:09:24 <AnMaster> anyway is funge cell integer overflow well defined?
15:09:41 <Deewiant> ais523: http://haskell.org/hoogle/?q=Int%20-%3E%20Integer again :-)
15:09:48 <ais523> Deewiant: thanks, I know much of the structure of Haskell but am useless with its stdlib
15:09:52 <ais523> and I was looking there too
15:10:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that handprint overflows to some 32-bit value which could theoretically be in use by another interpreter
15:10:49 <Deewiant> and no, overflow is not discussed in the specs
15:10:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm true, so EFUN it is
15:11:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:11:51 <AnMaster> hi oerjan, do you think 0x6566756E6765202D2041204249474E554D20426566756E67652D393820696E74657270726574657220696E2045726C616E67 is a sane number to use for a unique ID of an interpreter?
15:12:20 <AnMaster> really? Deewiant doesn't agree
15:12:35 <oerjan> assuming it was picked at random
15:12:53 <AnMaster> "efunge - A BIGNUM Befunge-98 interpreter in Erlang"
15:13:15 <AnMaster> normally they are like CFUN, CCBI, RCSU (iirc) and so on
15:13:57 <AnMaster> anyway I guess I shall go with EFUN instead
15:15:14 <oerjan> ok assuming you wanted to call that from another interpreter, it would seem rather useful if that didn't have to be a bignum one
15:15:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, but agree the long one is more fun :D
15:16:00 <AnMaster> That the interpreter's handprint is 1022815351171939080750602515080902596655856329413174779991860562785344354620645109770120275823379669394014875628110704231
15:16:13 <AnMaster> That the interpreter's handprint is 1162237262
15:16:23 <AnMaster> the latter is EFUN as a 32-bit integer
15:16:51 <AnMaster> hm really I should make it a prime number :/
15:16:55 <oerjan> clearly there needs to be a handprint for requesting unlimited length handprints
15:17:14 <AnMaster> one char difference and it is a prime
15:18:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that wraps around to "lang" btw, heh
15:19:19 <oerjan> i mean are any of those primes
15:19:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh you mean in 32-bit
15:19:22 <ais523> well my Haskell program makes it 1022815351171939080750602515080902596655856329413174779991860562785344354620645109770120275823379669394014875628110704231
15:19:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: your too-long handprint, in 32-bit it's "lang"
15:19:27 <ais523> which is the same result you got
15:19:59 <ais523> it's a three-liner the way I wrote it, I was just a little rusty at Haskell so it took me a while
15:20:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway lang is a cool 32-bit handprint
15:20:20 <Deewiant> concatMap (flip showHex "" . ord) $ string
15:20:36 <ais523> what's special about that?
15:20:52 <Deewiant> but in retrospect I guess that's obvious
15:20:57 <Deewiant> since it's the last 4 chars of the string >_<
15:21:00 <ais523> no, I created lang from that
15:21:13 <Deewiant> ais523: it's that integer when truncated to 32 bits
15:21:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that depends on how signed wrapping works
15:21:26 <ais523> I thought there was something interesting about the number
15:21:49 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc's definition is interesting, it assumes signed wraps like unsigned except sometimes in the control expression of a loop
15:22:06 <ais523> or other comparison-like situations
15:22:15 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc's taking advantage of that fact, obviously, as its definition is weird
15:22:42 <AnMaster> find me a prime fingerprint in 32-bit that works for the name "efunge"
15:22:49 <AnMaster> otherwise I may just use the long one
15:23:05 <AnMaster> it shall be either prime and the name fitting
15:23:36 <AnMaster> but EFUM (which is prime) makes no sense
15:24:29 <AnMaster> but I totally fail to see how it is related
15:24:38 <ais523> AnMaster: fungus = mushroom
15:25:29 * ais523 likes the concept of e-mushrooms anyway
15:25:32 <tusho> AnMaster: what's so good about primality?
15:25:46 <ais523> have a fingerprint that's the sum of two cubes in two different ways
15:25:54 <ais523> it doesn't have to be 1729, make it much bigger
15:25:58 <ais523> then you can annoy people with ti
15:26:33 <AnMaster> ERFN is even and factors into "1163019854: 2 581509927"
15:26:34 <oerjan> well the first cannot be since it's even
15:27:39 * oerjan wonders what the perfect number fingerprints are
15:27:40 <AnMaster> ais523, huh what do you mean with cube here?
15:27:59 <ais523> AnMaster: a number that's some integer to the power 3
15:28:15 <AnMaster> two different cubes in two different ways?
15:28:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: a^3 + b^3 and c^3 + d^3
15:28:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: two cubes, in two ways.
15:28:45 <ais523> a number is the sum of two cubes if it's a^3+b^3
15:29:00 <ais523> and the sum of two cubes in two different ways if there are two possibilities for (a,b) that work
15:29:07 <AnMaster> anyway I got no idea if 1022815351171939080750602515080902596655856329413174779991860562785344354620645109770120275823379669394014875628110704231 is prime or not
15:29:25 <AnMaster> how many bits is that number hm?
15:29:43 <oerjan> could do the 3 and 11 tests at least
15:29:54 <oerjan> actually haskell should handle those fine
15:30:13 <ais523> AnMaster: it's divisible by 3
15:30:45 <oerjan> 6, 28, 496, 8128, 33550336, 8589869056, 137438691328
15:31:11 <ais523> oerjan: perfect numbers?
15:31:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, err hm some of those are not primes, so what are the prime factors of 1022815351171939080750602515080902596655856329413174779991860562785344354620645109770120275823379669394014875628110704231
15:31:26 <ais523> wow, that 33550336 struck me in the face
15:31:32 <ais523> I've spent all week staring at numbers that start 3355
15:31:36 <Deewiant> that's a tough one, 45 seconds already :-P
15:32:08 <ais523> 0x02000000 is 33554432
15:32:08 <oerjan> well that's a perfect synchronicity
15:32:15 <AnMaster> 10> io:format("~.16B~n", [33550336]).
15:32:19 <ais523> and it's the lowest memory address on the heap in gccbf
15:32:33 <AnMaster> 11> io:format("~.16B~n", [8589869056]).
15:32:35 <ais523> AnMaster: not really, all perfect numbers are the product of a power of 2 and 1 less than a power of 2
15:32:45 <ais523> all even perfect numbers anyway
15:32:46 <oerjan> i thought we were doing byte encoding not hex
15:33:06 <ais523> that's bad as it means that any even perfect handprint will end with lots of NULs
15:33:11 <AnMaster> is it so that all are 0x1F...0... with equal count of F and 0?
15:33:20 <AnMaster> or is that just true for those two?
15:33:26 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I think so, past the first few
15:33:29 <AnMaster> 12> io:format("~.16B~n", [137438691328]).
15:33:44 <ais523> AnMaster: that C is half an F and half a 0
15:34:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: {{3, 1}, {233, 1}, {463, 1}, {7309, 1}, {79843, 1}, {1196959691, 1}, {11426407403, 1}, {1516849785751, 1}, {77863659174921299, 1}, {3508614362114968649, 1}, {955524906494690973199465859798407059913, 1}}
15:34:21 <AnMaster> 13> io:format("~.2B~n", [137438691328]).
15:34:21 <AnMaster> 1111111111111111111000000000000000000
15:34:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how long did it take?
15:35:13 <AnMaster> I should select an 4096 bit number as fingerprint as a tribute to gpg key sizes
15:35:25 <tusho> AnMaster: why not... EFUN
15:35:35 <tusho> AnMaster: so fucking what?!
15:35:44 <AnMaster> either prime or larger than 32 bits
15:35:54 <AnMaster> tusho, because it is esoteric!
15:36:12 <tusho> AnMaster: it's pointless and not very funny either
15:38:11 <oerjan> i'd say it's a prime example of esotericness
15:39:41 <oerjan> i was trying not to say that
15:39:47 <Deewiant> evidently there's no noun for it
15:40:01 <ais523> heh, I noticed an Unlambda interp on hackage, checked the .cabal file and it seems that Oerjan here is at least partially responsible
15:40:05 <ais523> I should have guessed, really
15:40:22 <tusho> we should call esotericy peoples perpetrators
15:40:36 <ais523> tusho: that term is reserved for people who perpetrate INTERCAL compilers
15:40:43 <tusho> and they're "responsible" for languages and interps
15:40:44 <oerjan> there are several unlambda interpreters in haskell i think
15:40:51 <tusho> ais523: but going by my system, what would esolangs and implementations be?
15:41:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm would it be possible to implement MVRS without implementing concurrency I wonder?
15:42:21 <tusho> so perpetrators are responsible for plans and crimes
15:42:33 <oerjan> hm esoteri(ci)sm means something slightly different
15:43:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway are you going to test efunge at some point? That project will go dormant now until Friday at least
15:43:44 <Deewiant> and possibly at some point, yes
15:44:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, adding it would be simple, since it don't implement anything like TERM or NCRS or any other fingerprint that may need manual checking
15:44:22 <oerjan> esotericity and esotericness both give about 500 google hits
15:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hi..
15:45:50 <optbot> oerjan: because the mind isn't barraged by things like - say, physical constants?
15:46:18 <oerjan> oh i'd say G lays heavily on me
15:47:25 <oerjan> optbot: except i'm not sure that's the right idiom
15:51:51 <oklobol> what what coming from all them directions graaaa how can i find it in that small a heap
15:52:43 <oklobol> i mean, absolutely nothing
15:52:46 -!- oklobol has changed nick to oklopol.
15:59:32 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back for a while...").
16:12:32 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ilari
16:12:34 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:12:56 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hiato
16:13:03 <Slereah_> Once again, they're making us program on fucking paper.
16:13:04 <ais523> oerjan: bet it doesn't have an entry for ais523
16:13:58 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:Ais523
16:14:01 <oklopol> what's wrong with programming in c on paper
16:14:04 <ais523> oerjan: that's cheating
16:14:20 <Slereah_> You can't really correct yourself
16:14:26 <tusho> does the search suggest tush for tusho?
16:14:36 <ais523> tusho: Tusho is a placename
16:14:37 <Slereah_> I'd rather program in pseudo code on paper
16:14:46 <tusho> ais523: is it? cool. where
16:15:00 <Hiato> heh, oerjan, where'd you pull this out from?
16:15:17 <ais523> tusho: Ethiopia, apparently
16:15:27 <ais523> http://www.maplandia.com/ethiopia/oromiya/east-harerghe/tusho/
16:15:53 <oerjan> Hiato: google and wiktionary
16:19:08 <oerjan> Hiato: does your nick mean something else?
16:19:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm why haven't I seen Mike for some time
16:20:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: mike was actually another secret identity of Radovan Karadzic
16:20:40 <Hiato> oerjan: nope, I actually stole it from a similar one in worms (the original, it was Hialto)
16:21:14 <tusho> Hiato: the game worms? :P
16:22:13 <oerjan> Hialto seems to be a figure from Norse legends
16:22:55 <tusho> 1, dc, 2, wp, wa, 3d, 4, (haven't kept up with the ones after)
16:23:02 <Hiato> one of the random names "generated"
16:23:28 <tusho> i mean, which game?
16:23:37 <tusho> i think wa was the first with random names
16:24:00 <Hiato> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hiato
16:24:05 <oklopol> i've only really played wp, but it was awesome
16:24:19 <tusho> oklopol: W:A is a lot better than WWP with the recent patch
16:24:34 <tusho> it's WWP-crap-bugs+smoother+features
16:26:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I sent off a question to Mike asking about tagged tuples for FPDP
16:26:46 <ais523> AnMaster: FPDP seems reasonably simple to me, clearly it should just use 128-bit float on a 64-bit system
16:26:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it could even be written using g/p, but not printed out using o
16:26:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't do a union of int and double in erlang!
16:27:11 <AnMaster> so I need to use something like {double,1.345}
16:27:17 <AnMaster> on the stack to represent them
16:27:18 <ais523> AnMaster: you could copy the bits by hand, I suppose?
16:27:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: erlang is dynamically typed isn't it
16:27:44 <AnMaster> but point is following FPDP specs is an issue here
16:27:50 <oerjan> so can't you type check?
16:28:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes I could use is_float()
16:28:39 <AnMaster> ais523, yes erlang can do that kind of, but it is messy and I'd rather avoid it
16:28:50 <AnMaster> and also what if a float was a trap value
16:29:07 <AnMaster> efunge is aimed to be 99.9% percent portable
16:29:11 <ais523> AnMaster: what if someone runs FPDP, then stores the values in the playfield, then runs into them as a command?
16:29:19 <AnMaster> only non-portable erlang function I use so far is os:get_env()
16:29:35 <AnMaster> and as far as I can see in the docs os:get_env() works on both windows and linux
16:30:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you can store them however you like as long as they transparently behave like normal funge-space cells
16:31:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw for efunge / is correct path separator on windows I think, since erlang use forward slash on windows and convert it internally
16:31:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and Mike is very active in e-mail, he just isn't here anymore
16:31:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I did email him about it
16:31:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and no they won't be able to be written out using o
16:31:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: / is not correct on Windows IMO, no matter what.
16:32:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well using \ in efunge would fail on windows
16:33:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no but the docs seem to indicate it
16:33:23 <AnMaster> I don't have a windows install around
16:33:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you have erlang on it?
16:33:40 <Deewiant> what do I have to type, I have Eshell V5.5.5 open
16:34:30 <AnMaster> file:open("C:\\SomeFileOfYours", [read])
16:34:34 <AnMaster> file:open("C:/SomeFileOfYours", [read])
16:34:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err add a . after each
16:35:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:35:04 -!- Slereah2 has joined.
16:35:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: both give {ok,<0.number.0>} where number was 32 with / and 34 with \\
16:35:26 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
16:35:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, q(). to quit erlang shell
16:36:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well there is the filename module to *convert* to native paths, meant for interacting with external tools
16:36:24 <AnMaster> but I can't find path separator in there
16:36:31 <AnMaster> only more higher level functions
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16:37:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can't you do something manually to detect OS?
16:37:16 <AnMaster> there is the os module but it is unportable
16:37:17 <ais523> system("uname"), if it fails you're on Windows
16:37:24 <AnMaster> and erlang will always translate paths
16:37:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I prefer it to work on other OS like OS9 iirc
16:37:41 <Deewiant> ais523: unless it prints CYGWIN_NT-<number> like it does here :-)
16:38:09 <AnMaster> Think twice before using this function. Use the filename module if you want to inspect or build file names in a porta-
16:38:09 <AnMaster> ble way. Avoid matching on the Osname atom.
16:38:27 <AnMaster> so well I say that / is native in *erlang*
16:38:41 <AnMaster> and I define ERTS (Erlang RunTime System) to be my OS
16:38:50 <ais523> I'm beginning to be a bit inspired to write perfectly portable float -> int and int -> float convertors
16:38:54 <ais523> which copy the bit pattern using arithmetic
16:39:00 <AnMaster> ais523, err erlang only got double
16:39:16 <ais523> but the same idea I mean
16:39:35 <AnMaster> and I *think* the format of it is IEEE 7xx (whatever, can't remember the number) but not sure if implementation/OS defined
16:40:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
16:40:10 <ais523> AnMaster: everything uses IEEE-format floating point in practice nowadays
16:40:22 <ais523> it was the easiest format to get hold of soft-float libraries for
16:40:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well something could use x87 ones
16:41:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no I can't find out native path separator in any way it seems
16:41:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how would I convert a path to native
16:42:00 <AnMaster> not without building a fake filename, translating to native format, and then looking at some specific index in the string, and that would be error-prone since some OS use a totally different format
16:42:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, filename:nativename("string").
16:42:37 <AnMaster> Converts Path to a form accepted by the command shell and native applications on the current platform. On Win-
16:42:37 <AnMaster> dows, forward slashes is converted to backward slashes. On all platforms, the name is normalized as done by
16:42:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can you push / on OS 9?
16:43:04 <AnMaster> Macintosh HD:Folder:SubFolder:file
16:43:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, point is in all cases erlang will handle it transparently from my point of view
16:43:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: slashes would work on OS 9? O_o
16:44:12 <AnMaster> now I don't know if there is still any erlang implementation for OS 9
16:44:20 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure one existed at some point
16:44:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no but erlang would convert it
16:44:38 <AnMaster> http://erlang.org/doc/man/filename.html
16:44:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, so "slashes would work on OS_9? O_o" is true
16:44:51 <AnMaster> http://erlang.org/doc/man/file.html
16:45:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what about if you have a file called / in OS 9
16:45:20 <Deewiant> or a file containing / in its name
16:45:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm don't remember, iirc it wasn't legal
16:46:45 <fizzie> "Mac allows all except a colon (though a forward slash, /, can cause issues for POSIX paths)."
16:47:02 <AnMaster> hm didn't they change it in OS 9.1 or so
16:47:07 <fizzie> And the Internet also says that with some C compilers/runtimes on OS 9, /s work in fopen/friends.
16:47:11 <AnMaster> for forward compatiblity with OS X
16:47:36 <AnMaster> wow it was years ago I used macs
16:48:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway as far as I can tell, letting erlang handle what path separator is actually used is more portable
16:48:17 <AnMaster> that is the point of erlang runtime
16:49:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but I guess efunge works under windows or?
16:50:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to give it arguments from the shell you could use efunge:start("foo.b98", ["a", "b"]).
16:50:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh you had erlang installed anyway?
16:51:58 <AnMaster> "In Windows, all functions return file names with forward slashes only, even if the arguments contain back slashes. Use join/1 to normalize a file name by removing redundant directory separators."
16:52:05 <AnMaster> from the filename module man page
16:52:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or what did filename:nativename() return for you?
16:53:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: nativename("/") was "\\"
16:53:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and it is meant for when you want to send off the path to an external tool, as far as I can tell
16:54:14 <AnMaster> as the other functions return with forward slashes even on windows I assume that is what erlang prefer internally
16:55:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what I'd do is nativename(join("foo", "bar")) and get what's between foo and bar :-P
16:55:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I define my OS to be Erlang, I will make = evaluate erlang, won't use os:system()
16:56:14 <AnMaster> just because I don't think you could claim it was invalid :P
16:56:30 <Deewiant> unless I can manage to break it ;-)
16:56:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well of course you use any = for breaking commands
16:57:14 <Deewiant> what I meant was finding a case where \ would work and / doesn't
16:57:47 <ais523> AnMaster: and why would you want to do that?
16:58:09 <AnMaster> ais523, "<Deewiant> unless I can manage to break it ;-)" "<AnMaster> Deewiant, well of course you use any = for breaking commands"
16:58:13 <ais523> surely ccbi shouldn't need the -9 to kill?
16:58:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2008-09-15 18:57:14 ( Deewiant) what I meant was finding a case where \ would work and / doesn't
16:58:44 <Deewiant> I don't really care enough to bother trying :-P
16:58:47 <AnMaster> anyway as efunge doesn't currently implement i or o
17:03:23 <AnMaster> hm eval in erlang looks tricky
17:04:35 <AnMaster> seems you have to call several functions on the string: erl_scan functions to tokenise it, then erl_parse functions to get a parse tree, finally erl_eval functions
17:07:14 -!- ais523_ has joined.
17:07:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:08:01 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
17:39:36 <oklopol> i can't say i believe that anyone can actually create computers.
17:39:42 <oklopol> they most likely always were
17:40:47 <oklopol> just think about it, no one can make anything that small
17:41:13 <AnMaster> and the original computers were huge
17:41:25 <oklopol> tools must be made as well.
17:41:57 <oklopol> i believe you can make huge computers, yes
17:42:28 <oklopol> anyway, i wish there was a book about how a computer is actually made, from scratch, but not for dummies, a book that actually explains each and every detail
17:43:02 <oklopol> currently i have a massive body of knowledge about circuit design and digital logic, but i have no idea how the fuck these things are actually made
17:43:29 <ais523> oklopol: are you wondering about how things like ICs are made?
17:43:33 <oklopol> not that i care, now that i think about it
17:43:39 <ais523> mostly it's done using chemistry and light
18:16:31 <fizzie> I have a feeling the details are going to be somewhat complicated when the line width goes below 100 nm. Lithography itself is reasonably understandable, though.
18:17:57 <ais523> basically there are various light-sensitive chemicals
18:18:11 <ais523> which can be washed away in a particular acid if they've been exposed to light, but not otherwise
18:18:33 <ais523> in order to make a chip all you need is to be able to place p-type and n-type silicon in arbitrary positions in 3D
18:18:41 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
18:19:22 <ais523> so you start out with a block of p-type (for instance), then protect it with a light-sensitive chemical, use optics to expose it to light in a certain pattern, wash away the exposed chemical, then fill the atmosphere with something that turns p-type into n-type
18:19:54 <ais523> to get a 3d pattern rather than just 2d, you continue this alternating between p-type and n-type, and doing it faster each time so the p-type/n-type flip doesn't go as deep each time
18:21:30 <ais523> Slereah2: I was replying, very late, to oklopol
18:21:35 <ais523> oh, and btw hi optbot, hi fungot
18:21:36 <fungot> ais523: it was evoli whom you introduced to begin, i think
18:21:36 <optbot> ais523: i'm blaming the world
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19:22:48 <oklopol> i guess i could believe it if it's done with light
19:23:03 <oklopol> since i can imagine ways to make light patterns smaller
19:24:02 <AnMaster> probably not visible wavelengths though
19:24:16 <ais523> I think they normally use ultraviolet, not too sure about that though
19:25:27 <ais523> I imagine they have something like a reverse microscope, to scale the pattern down to chip size
19:26:53 <oklopol> now i'd like to know details out of interest, not out of doubting the existance of computers
19:27:17 <oklopol> would be fun to have built a computer from scratch
19:27:48 <oklopol> wonder how many manhours that would take if you know exactly what to do
19:31:11 <AnMaster> ais523, is wikipedia down? en.wikipedia.org times out for me
19:31:21 <ais523> AnMaster: let me check
19:31:33 <AnMaster> ah well google cache will work for now
19:31:58 <ais523> yes, it's up, just slow
19:47:22 <ais523> tusho: anyone else who cares: I found a brilliantly appropriate format in which to distribute C-INTERCAL
19:47:49 <tusho> so it's probably perfect
19:47:51 <ais523> they removed tar from the POSIX standard
19:47:54 <ais523> and put in pax in its place
19:47:58 <tusho> ais523: what? when?
19:48:06 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_(Unix)
19:48:12 <ais523> to address some of the deficiencies with tar
19:48:21 <ais523> it's forward-compatible so it can be read with a tar reader
19:48:36 <ais523> so nobody will actually have any trouble decoding the paxball once they know that method works
19:48:55 <ais523> the only practical difference is that the files' ctimes are recorded, in the case of C-INTERCAL
19:49:26 <ais523> although pax is a lot more versatile than that
19:49:29 <tusho> what is wrong with tar
19:49:32 <ais523> also it allows unlimited-length filenames
19:50:11 <ais523> tusho: filenames limited to 99 characters, some information about the file not recorded, GNU tar not actually conforming to the standard?
19:50:24 <ais523> at least, not by default
19:50:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I guess you should be using pax too, right?
19:50:32 <ais523> it can generate pax though, nowadays
19:50:42 <tusho> Deewiant: ooh, i don't think he can respond to that one
19:50:47 <ais523> Deewiant: that's the great part, everyone /ought/ to be using pax, nobody does though
19:50:47 <tusho> it fits him perfectly
19:51:05 <ais523> thus it's totally unusual, and fits the spirit of INTERCAL very nicelt
19:51:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: see above discussion
19:51:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it important? I'm kind of busy
19:51:33 <ais523> Deewiant: had you heard of pax before today?
19:51:38 <Deewiant> ais523: everybody /ought/ to be using INTERCAL, nobody does though? ;-)
19:51:50 <tusho> i think it's very important
19:51:57 <ais523> Deewiant: INTERCAL isn't a POSIX standard, neither is tar, pax is
19:52:04 <Deewiant> ais523: I think I had, hadn't paid much attention to it though if I had
19:52:17 <Deewiant> I'm fairly sure I had but I couldn't remember without a wikipedia lookup
19:52:17 <ais523> probably most people don't go around reading man 5 tar in their spare time
19:52:40 <Deewiant> ais523: just poking fun at the way it fits in the spirit of INTERCAL :-)
19:53:04 <ais523> Automake have heard of it, although it isn't the default; unfortunately they put .tar.gz/.tar.bz2/tar.lzma extensions on so as not to confuse people, but I'll fix that
19:53:15 <ais523> Deewiant: by being unlike all other programming languages is the original spirit
19:53:29 <tusho> ais523: loads of languages use automake
19:53:33 <tusho> you should write your own build system in c
19:53:34 <ais523> the modern spirit is "by being unlike all other programming languages in a way that the other programming languages can reasonably be claimed to be incorrect"
19:53:47 <ais523> tusho: it's a custom tweaked automake
19:53:58 <tusho> Deewiant: that would be quite thoroughly difficult
19:54:02 <tusho> ais523: yes, but that's more intercally
19:54:03 <ais523> Deewiant: INTERCAL needs special extensions to be able to do file handling and invoke other programs
19:54:19 <ais523> basically the whole thing would be written in extensions, which is not the point
19:54:22 <olsner> longjmp without setjmp <3
19:54:32 <tusho> LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT
19:54:59 <olsner> love at first "The program has executed a very large jump." popup
19:55:30 <ais523> the worrying thing is that under gcc it's possible to fake a jmp_buf in a way that will work to some extent on a lot of systems
19:56:18 <ais523> it goes something like {auto char c; jb[0]=__builtin_frame_pointer(0); jb[1]=(&c)-1; jb[2]=&&label; label: ;}
19:56:28 <ais523> of course you'd be mad to try anything of the sort in production code
19:56:34 <tusho> ais523: that is brilliant
19:56:38 <tusho> ais523: put that into c intercal
19:56:54 <ais523> tusho: this is the sort of knowledge you get after playing around with the internals of gcc for several weeks
19:56:58 <tusho> ais523: actually, set that as your quit message
19:57:06 <ais523> really, though, I wouldn't give it more than a 50/50 chance of working
19:57:33 <ais523> especially as I've probably messed up somewhere
19:57:39 <ais523> hmm... that -1 should be +1 on x86, I think
19:57:48 <ais523> or possibly +4, depending on alignment
19:57:57 <ais523> I should probably make c a long long to avoid problems with that
20:04:17 <olsner> hmm, segfaults for me :P
20:04:37 <olsner> and the function is apparently called __builtin_frame_address rather than pointer
20:04:48 <ais523> and I'm not at all surprised at that segfault
20:05:06 <ais523> for all I know I got the elements of that in the wrong order
20:05:14 <ais523> try swapping 1 and 2, I'm pretty sure about 0
20:05:41 <olsner> also, I'm on x86_64 :P
20:05:50 <olsner> but it does do the same when compiled with -m32
20:06:15 <ais523> hmm... maybe I'll research a corrected version that at least works on x86
20:10:15 <AnMaster> and it is horribly implementation defined, or undefined
20:10:18 <ais523> well that was meant to be portable to a whole range of processors, most likely I messed it up somewhere
20:10:24 <ais523> that was kind-of the point
20:10:36 <ais523> normally you'd just use setjmp
20:11:03 <AnMaster> ais523, normally I wouldn't mess with either setjmp or longjmp
20:11:06 <ais523> I think every single statement of that, apart from the auto char c and the null statement at the end, is undefined
20:11:17 <tusho> i love it when AnMaster nitpicks about portability, readable & maintainable code, etc. when we're messing around with stuff in #esoteric
20:11:36 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe it is some sort of meta-esotericness?
20:11:36 <ais523> well, I think it's useful to nitpick about that normally, but my code was intentionally awful
20:11:47 <tusho> ais523: of course - normally
20:11:50 <tusho> but we're in #esoteric
20:11:58 <AnMaster> and yes I see it is something you shouldn't do
20:12:04 <AnMaster> not even with lots of doxygen comments.
20:12:05 <tusho> unreadable, unmaintainable and unportable code is a holy grail
20:12:16 <tusho> see! now he's ranting about decent documentation
20:12:29 <AnMaster> tusho, you need a new sarcasm detector
20:13:10 <tusho> AnMaster: your breed of sarcasm is neither funny, has any hint of sarcasm being in it at all (seeing as most of the time it's your actual opinion backed up from previous times) and is merely annoying
20:14:44 <tusho> 'AnMaster:' <- this is a magical little thing that lets you know who I'm talking to
20:14:57 <ais523> please you two, calm down
20:15:01 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I assumed it was some weird mistab
20:15:08 <ais523> I may have to research a fixed setjmp-by-hand
20:15:15 <ais523> to quell this argument somewhat
20:15:25 <tusho> ais523: no, i've dealt with anmaster's annoyance for many months now and it's just pissing me off
20:15:33 <AnMaster> also if you think I like readable code, how do you explain this then:
20:15:35 <AnMaster> set(Fungespace, #fip{offX = OffX, offY = OffY}, {X,Y}, V) ->
20:15:35 <AnMaster> set(Fungespace, {X+OffX, Y+OffY}, V).
20:15:46 <AnMaster> I wouldn't call that readable, yet I wrote it and I'm happy with it
20:15:47 <ais523> AnMaster: that is readable compared to half the stuff I write
20:15:50 <tusho> AnMaster: except i have seen people actually find my sarcasm funny, always is exaggerated so you can tell it is sarcasm
20:15:55 <tusho> and is not generally annoying
20:16:00 <tusho> also, that code is perfectly readable
20:16:04 <tusho> it's just not imperative code.
20:17:23 <tusho> i wouldn't have a problem with this if it wasn't completely impossible to /ignore AnMaster properly seeing as there is regularly discussion with him of which at least one side is interesting
20:17:54 <ais523> you two seem to get into different sorts of discussions really
20:18:02 <ais523> maybe we need to split #esoteric into two
20:18:12 <tusho> it's hilarious that I was actually the one who invited AnMaster to #esoteic
20:18:30 <ais523> tusho: you're both credits to #esoteric; at least, /I/ enjoy both sorts of discussion
20:18:37 <tusho> AnMaster: is definitely
20:18:44 <tusho> you were in #bash asking about your brainfuck impl
20:18:58 <ais523> but tusho gets annoyed when I have long interesting discussions with AnMaster and considers my half interesting but infuriating due to the lack of context and AnMaster's half annoying
20:18:58 <tusho> I asked some stuff about it and helped a bit in /msg, invited you to #esoteric, and then a few months later you just started being incredibly annoying
20:19:02 <AnMaster> tusho, what nick were you using then?
20:20:05 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm trying to remember when it was
20:20:17 <ais523> probably it was about some Befunge implementation, most likely cfunge
20:21:17 <AnMaster> ais523, which you like right? it seems tusho hates it though
20:21:26 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I like it
20:22:23 <AnMaster> and I actually timed it on life.bf (befunge93 game of life) and cfunge is way faster than any other funge98 I found so far, I guess a dedicated befunge93 with a static 80*25 array would be faster
20:22:51 <AnMaster> all built with -march=k8 -msse3 -O2
20:23:04 <AnMaster> ccbi I had to use Deewiant's build for though
20:29:11 <AnMaster> ais523, no responded with "trolls live in Norway"
20:29:52 <AnMaster> ais523, no timestamps but see "potar" in http://rafb.net/p/RJkQJY27.html
20:32:04 <ais523> http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/ <-- why?
20:32:24 <oklopol> *me is xxxx. -> why are you xxxx? is actually not that improbable
20:32:41 <ais523> oklopol: ELIZA, IRC version?
20:32:41 <AnMaster> ais523, that got some java script...
20:33:02 <ais523> you can look at the source if you really want to
20:33:09 <ais523> it checks a variable to see if the world's ended
20:33:35 <ais523> but I don't see why anyone would go to the trouble of registering the domain in the first place
20:34:31 <ais523> what exactly is K-lining?
20:34:42 <oklopol> i have a friend who got a k-line on freenode by explicitly asking for one for about a week
20:34:57 <ais523> being killed by the server admins as opposed to being kickbanned from a channel?
20:35:25 <AnMaster> ais523, like a ban from the whole network
20:35:27 <ais523> AnMaster: that isn't very helpful as I don't know what either is
20:35:37 <AnMaster> k-line on freenode is whole network
20:35:46 <AnMaster> on traditional networks k-line was server-local
20:35:57 <ais523> must do something pretty bad to annoy the opers like that
20:36:22 <oklopol> in quakenet, you just have to connect 5 times from the same ip
20:36:31 <AnMaster> ais523, a staffer joined just before, I guess he (yes I know that staffer is a he) banned after he saw the spamming
20:36:52 <ais523> I thought channel kickbans were more common than server k-lines though
20:37:05 <oklopol> probably on multiple channels spamming the channel name
20:37:41 * ais523 wonders how long an ELIZAbot would last in a high-traffic channel if it tried to reply to everyone
20:38:07 <oklopol> heh, i just realized the domains page says "volimo's homepage", i smell copy paste
20:38:15 <AnMaster> ais523, sendq or recvq exceeded? or if it rate limited itself, would lag several hours
20:38:52 <ais523> AnMaster: I seriously doubt it would overflow the sendq, if it did then the same would happen to everyone else in the channel
20:38:57 <ais523> as they're all receiving the same things
20:39:24 <AnMaster> ais523, err I just didn't remember if it was send/recv from client or server point of view they were named after
20:39:58 <ais523> I know, I did /who on Freenode once by mistake
20:40:14 <ais523> it managed several screenfuls of channels before killing me, though
20:41:23 <oklopol> talking about excess floods?
20:41:43 <ais523> in particular, what would happen if you put an ELIZAbot in, say, #ubuntu, which replied to every message
20:42:08 <oklopol> with the current traffic, probably nothing
20:42:21 <ais523> ok, say it's the release day of Intrepid
20:42:26 <ais523> to guarantee high traffic
20:42:33 <olsner> my stack layout seems quite insane here, &c isn't even *near* the stack pointer
20:42:35 <oklopol> in quakenet, a full message can be sent every 7 seconds without excess flood
20:42:49 <ais523> olsner: that could explain why it isn't working, to some extent
20:43:00 <oklopol> 5 second delay gives may get you killed.
20:43:21 <oklopol> freenode lets you send a bit faster, since this is a relatively small network
20:43:28 <oklopol> well, that's no reason, more like a heuristic
20:44:23 <oklopol> you could send at least 3 responses to everything on #ubuntu without getting excess flood killed
20:44:36 <ais523> ok, so not a floodkill
20:44:49 <ais523> how long do you think it would take for the people there to get annoyed and find a chanop and kill the bot?
20:45:39 <ais523> "Are you a bot?" "Would you like me to be a bot?2
20:45:51 <ais523> that would make it obvious pretty quickly, I imagine
20:46:03 <oklopol> when i asked for a mips expert, where you here, ais523
20:46:14 <ais523> I don't think so, but I'm not a mips expert
20:46:22 <ais523> if I was I would have said GregorR was and I wasn't
20:46:34 <ais523> at least GregorR reimplemented mips in JS, which has got to be worth something
20:46:35 <oklopol> yeah that's the redirection i was given
20:46:55 <oklopol> but GregorR is not active, so i had to recheck.
20:48:02 <oklopol> i do know mips quite well now, read the most of computer organization and design last week, and it introduces mips pretty thoroughly
20:48:07 <olsner> hmm, even with the use of the proper register offsets into the jmp_buf (which are 3, 4 and 5 for bp, sp, ip), and adding an arbitrary offset to &c, it still seems to go haywire
20:48:30 <oklopol> so i don't actually need any help, i guess i'm just asking out of interest
20:48:44 <tusho> it's a parody of isitchristmas.com
20:48:50 <ais523> ah, I didn't know that
20:48:51 <tusho> which has parodies such as isxkcdshittytoday.com
20:49:00 <tusho> and isbarackobamaamuslim.com
20:49:04 <ais523> but why is a website needed to tell people if it's christmas?
20:49:08 <tusho> ais523: it's funny
20:49:24 <tusho> ais523: it's absurd, yet funny because it's so overblown
20:49:27 <tusho> ais523: all these have rss feeds
20:49:44 <ais523> tusho: how often do they get new entries? Once a year?
20:50:00 <tusho> for isitchristmas, NO or YES
20:50:02 <oklopol> isxkcdshittytoday says yes :o
20:50:02 <ais523> well, twice a year for isitchristmas
20:50:05 <tusho> for isxkcdshittytoday.com always YES
20:50:14 <tusho> http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/ - well you can guess
20:50:25 <tusho> http://hasthelhcdestroyedtheworld.com/ <-- someone else got the idea
20:50:40 <tusho> http://www.hasthelhcdestroyedtheearth.com/
20:51:03 * ais523 almost faints in horror at the idiocy of the Internet
20:51:09 <ais523> actually, I genuinely feel a bit sick now
20:51:26 <tusho> what's wrong with you, generally you love pointless ideas carried out to a huge maximum
20:51:29 <tusho> that is, er, intercal
20:51:41 <ais523> tusho: they have to be interesting pointless ideas carried out to a huge maximum
20:51:50 <tusho> ais523: an rss feed is a pretty huge maximum
20:52:03 <tusho> I also like http://notalwaysblue.com/ (javascript required).
20:52:07 <tusho> It is not always blue.
20:52:08 <ais523> also, doing it more than once is not funny
20:52:14 <tusho> ais523: it's not one person
20:52:16 <ais523> the original is possibly a good idea
20:52:17 <AnMaster> ais523, why exactly is INTERCAL not LR(N)?
20:52:20 <tusho> they're all different people
20:52:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I wrote an essay about it
20:53:16 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/pit/tests/arrtest.doc
20:53:20 <ais523> that's actually a text file
20:53:26 <ais523> the extension is misleading the web server for some reason
20:53:27 <tusho> i wanna register http://alwaysblue.com/
20:53:37 <tusho> ais523: you know exactly the reason
20:54:18 <ais523> tusho: that site is not even usually blue
20:54:27 <tusho> ais523: no, that's the joke
20:54:30 <tusho> it focuses on the blue for no reason
20:54:33 <tusho> everything has a chance
20:54:40 <tusho> but it is 'not always blue'
20:54:58 <ais523> I didn't check the list of colours quickly enough
20:55:28 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway, quick summary:
20:55:35 <ais523> DO .1 <- ,3SUB",2SUB.1".2 (reduce required)
20:55:41 <ais523> DO .1 <- ,3SUB",2SUB.1".2~.3"".4 (shift required))
20:55:59 <ais523> and it's possible to put an arbitrary expression in place of .3
20:56:13 <ais523> however, doing this sort of thing is actually against the spec
20:56:24 <ais523> which basically says "you mustn't do anything which makes the language not LR(1)"
20:56:36 <ais523> that amused me when I read it...
20:56:59 <AnMaster> DO .1 <- ,3SUB",2SUB.1".2~.3"".4 (shift required))
20:57:15 <ais523> AnMaster: bad copy-and-paste, sorry
20:57:33 <ais523> yes, but I didn't copy the line above
20:57:34 <AnMaster> (It could be the start of this statement:
20:57:34 <AnMaster> DO .1 <- ,3SUB",2SUB.1".2~.3"".4 (shift required))
20:57:52 <ais523> it matches in the orginal but not my paste here, which is why I said "bad copy and paste"
20:58:41 <AnMaster> ais523, apart from this, what prevents it from being LALR(1)?
20:58:53 <ais523> nothing, it's just the array syntax
20:58:56 <ais523> everything else is fin
20:59:13 <AnMaster> <ais523> which basically says "you mustn't do anything which makes the language not LR(1)" <-- didn't that mean LALR then?
20:59:24 <ais523> could mean either really
20:59:32 <ais523> they express the restriction in very vague terms
20:59:43 <olsner> hmm, LALR is a subset of LR, right?
20:59:48 <ais523> it's pretty much impossible to know what it means until you try to implement INTERCAL yourself, or have someone explain it to you...
21:00:30 <AnMaster> ais523, how can " be both "sparks" and "ears"?
21:01:05 <ais523> there is no requirement to use one or the other except in the case of array indexing
21:01:18 <AnMaster> so how is there a conflict if ' is spark
21:01:22 <ais523> when you have to alternate to avoid that little bit of parsing trickiness
21:01:24 <AnMaster> then you could just see if it was ' or "
21:01:38 <ais523> AnMaster: the point is that you have to choose either ' or " to avoid the conflict
21:01:46 <ais523> whereas in most expressions you can just use " everywhere
21:02:00 <ais523> ".1~".2~".3~.4""" is a perfectly legal INTERCAL expression
21:02:44 <ais523> INTERCAL parens are nondirectional, thus causing the current notational confusion
21:02:55 <ais523> . is a sigil to denote a 16-bit variable, like $ in Perl
21:03:02 <ais523> and ~ is the select operator, which is a pain to explain
21:03:17 <Deewiant> nondirectional? ( and ) are interchangeable?
21:03:28 <ais523> Deewiant: they're both " in INTERCAL, or alternatively '
21:03:30 <AnMaster> ".1~".2~".3~.4""" <-- if they are like ( and ), there is no way you can handle that with one symbol lookahead
21:03:33 <ais523> " can only match " an ' can only match '
21:03:46 <ais523> AnMaster: there is, the trick is to see whether there's an operator or number immediately before them
21:03:47 <AnMaster> because you wouldn't know if it was a closing on a opening one on a new level
21:04:02 <ais523> that doesn't work in arrays though because they can have multiple expressions in a row
21:04:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 3( is invalid and +) is invalid, I guess
21:04:21 <ais523> that's what I was referring to
21:04:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, except intercal doesn't have addition iirc
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21:04:44 <ais523> none of which are particularly standard
21:04:47 <Deewiant> whatever, you know what I meant
21:04:53 <AnMaster> ais523, select being the worst one?
21:05:01 <ais523> AnMaster: select is probably the hardest to explain
21:05:04 <ais523> it's one of the most useful though
21:05:11 <ais523> and the only one known to have been invented independently
21:05:20 <ais523> well, $ is mingle, that alternates bits in its arguments
21:05:44 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc I read that select matched some operator on some other existing system though it was unknown by the intercal inventors
21:06:02 <ais523> e.g. #5$#2 is 101$10 which is 100110 which is 38
21:06:10 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's from the Wikipedia article
21:06:33 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it takes two arguments
21:06:50 <ais523> it takes the first bit of the first, then the first bit of the second, then the second bit of the first, then the second bit of the second, and so on
21:06:58 <ais523> until all the bits have been copied into a new number
21:07:07 <tusho> ais523: is that all?
21:07:20 <ais523> tusho: that's what $ does, and it isn't all that powerful
21:07:36 <ais523> then there are unary AND, OR, and XOR, which work on alternate bits of their arguments
21:07:41 <ais523> s/alternate/consecutive/
21:07:58 <ais523> so it's the first bit AND the second, the second AND the third, and so on
21:08:13 <ais523> except that you have the last AND the first filling in the very top bit
21:08:26 <ais523> they're written & V ? in C-INTERCAL
21:08:37 <ais523> I'll try to explain select anyway, it's probably the most useful
21:08:45 <tusho> ais523: wait, isn't $ select
21:08:57 <tusho> ah, so select is the complex useful one
21:09:02 <tusho> well, I'll implement $
21:09:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well I seen a diagram which wasn't useful at all
21:09:33 <ais523> AnMaster: that diagram's a joke AFAICT
21:10:02 <ais523> anyway, to calculate .1 ~ .2, you work out the bitwise-and of .1 and .2, then stable-sort the bits of the result by the bits of .2
21:10:02 <AnMaster> "The program arrtest.i will not actually run, but it will compile as far as degenerating C code" <-- "degenerating"?
21:10:24 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCALese for "generate", they tend to mess around with words like that if it doesn't cost too many extra characters
21:10:48 <AnMaster> stable-sort the bits of the result by the bits of the second operand.... um wait what?
21:10:58 <AnMaster> you mean all 0 first, then all 1?
21:11:06 <tusho> ais523: hmm, you can't implement mingle without knowing how many bits in an int, right?
21:11:16 <ais523> tusho: correct, but it's always 16 in INTERCAL
21:11:23 <AnMaster> tusho, sizeof(int) * CHAT_BIT in C
21:11:24 <ais523> well, 16 before the mingle, 32 afterwards
21:11:25 <tusho> alright, i'll just require that then
21:11:38 <AnMaster> tusho, what are you writing this for?
21:11:48 <ais523> INTERCAL has both 16- and 32-bit datatypes but you aren't allowed to mingle 32-bit values
21:12:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what sorting algorithm does ick use for select?
21:13:02 <AnMaster> I assume some custom one would actually be fastest here
21:13:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I think it's custom
21:13:26 <ais523> I can look it up, the implementation of the forward operators is one of the bits I never touched though
21:13:38 <AnMaster> could be O(n) with O(2n) for memory
21:14:02 <AnMaster> could be if one was reversed stable sort
21:14:10 <AnMaster> so you filled in from each end
21:14:24 <ais523> AnMaster: well the only possible digits in binary are 0 and 1
21:14:28 <ais523> that makes the sorting a lot faster
21:14:32 <ais523> also, 0 AND anything is 0
21:14:37 <ais523> so that can also be used to optimise the result
21:15:33 <AnMaster> is the source for the original intercal compiler around any more?
21:15:50 <ais523> AnMaster: OK, I checked, basically it just scans the second argument looking for 1s, and copies corresponding values from the first argument to the result
21:16:10 <ais523> oh, except it saves time by bitshifting the arguments around on occasion
21:16:19 <ais523> AnMaster: not as far as I know
21:16:23 <AnMaster> ais523, ah so O(n) and O(2n) for memory?
21:16:32 <ais523> however, there was an interview with the original creator
21:16:52 <ais523> anyway it turned out that they didn't implement integers as integers at all
21:17:02 <ais523> they implemented them as strings holding the binary representation of the number
21:17:06 <ais523> and manipulated them with regexen
21:17:13 <tusho> AnMaster: it was in SNOBOL, iirc
21:17:16 <tusho> so that would have been natural
21:17:24 <ais523> tusho: SPITBOL, a dialect of SNOBOL, but yes
21:17:36 <AnMaster> still that would have been slow, and very very slow on those old computers
21:18:01 <tusho> why does it matter
21:19:00 <tusho> AnMaster: because i really don't get why you're bothered by stuff like that
21:19:06 <tusho> who cares if intercal programs run fast?
21:19:09 <tusho> why is it an issue?
21:19:24 <ais523> tusho: actually part of the charm of C-INTERCAL is trying to get INTERCAL to run fast
21:19:44 <tusho> ais523: but nobody would fault it if it failed
21:19:52 <ais523> well, it does fail to some extent
21:20:00 <ais523> but it's a lot faster than CLC-INTERCAL
21:20:04 <ais523> and probably a bit faster than J-INTERCAL
21:21:06 <AnMaster> ais523, does ick use SSA internally or?
21:21:19 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it maps each INTERCAL variable to a C variable
21:28:17 <AnMaster> ais523, what about other stuff, common sub-expression elimination and such?
21:28:23 <ais523> AnMaster: when you find out how bad INTERCAL control flow is normally, you'll see why
21:28:44 <ais523> anyway, the sort of optimisations C-INTERCAL do are mostly manipulating the INTERCAL to make it more C-like
21:28:57 <ais523> there's some CSE involved, but normally that can be left to the C compiler when the code's C-like enough
21:29:40 <ais523> common subexpression elimination
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21:30:06 <AnMaster> ais523, ever thought about compiling to native code?
21:30:19 <ais523> AnMaster: a bit, if I did I'd do it as a gcc frontend
21:30:26 <ais523> but it works well compiling to C
21:31:06 <ais523> AnMaster: the intermediate formats used by C-INTERCAL and by GCC are pretty similar
21:31:50 <oklopol> ais523: i may have killed you
21:31:55 <tusho> [[ You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
21:31:55 <tusho> along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
21:31:55 <tusho> Foundation, Inc., 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA.
21:32:01 <tusho> What if the FSF move offices?
21:32:07 <tusho> Won't they be violating the GPL or something?
21:32:16 <oklopol> ais523: was watching death note, and decided to try out whether notepad has the same power
21:32:25 <AnMaster> tusho, didn't they at some point?
21:32:30 <ais523> tusho: it would certainly make for a good Slashdot story
21:32:36 <oklopol> you were the only one on #esoteric the name and face of whose i could immediately recall
21:32:41 <ais523> the GPL is no-derivs so we couldn't even change it
21:32:49 <ais523> oklopol: I'm still alive I think
21:32:59 <tusho> i believe death note has a time limit thing
21:33:02 <tusho> 24 hours or something?
21:33:04 <tusho> haven't actually watched it
21:33:07 <oklopol> you should've died already
21:33:17 <Deewiant> I haven't watched it either, read it though
21:33:17 <oklopol> i guess the microsoft dudes didn't add tat feature
21:33:19 <tusho> creepy that oklopol knows ais523's face by heart, though
21:33:26 <oklopol> 40 seconds in the tv series
21:33:26 <tusho> AnMaster: manga/anime thing.
21:33:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: manga/anime/live-action movie
21:33:32 <AnMaster> ais523, tusho: I seen another address in older copies of GPL with different address
21:33:50 <Deewiant> oklopol: I wonder why they always change stuff like that
21:33:57 <oklopol> tusho: i know yours too, but ais523's nick was the one i saw first
21:34:04 <tusho> Deewiant: it's OVER 8000
21:34:15 <oklopol> Deewiant: in an anime the time actually *matters*
21:34:18 <Deewiant> in the manga it's not even said
21:34:24 <comexk> in the full version of even the english, he says "it's over 8000... over nine" to himself
21:34:25 <tusho> hmm. i bet apple added death note functionality to TextEdit, since they rock so much
21:34:30 <Deewiant> oklopol: it's not like it's accurate anyway
21:34:33 <AnMaster> anyway you are making no sense
21:34:43 <oklopol> there are a lot of inconsistencies
21:34:44 <AnMaster> I guess that is due to not watching manga or anime
21:34:50 <tusho> oklopol: you may die in 30 seconds of choking on your computer
21:34:57 <ais523> tusho: TextEdit is one of the few applications that can actually open OOXML
21:35:05 <ais523> however it does so by just extracting the text, I think
21:35:16 <comexk> don't you just have to unzip it like odt
21:35:30 <oklopol> death note is the only anime i've watched
21:35:31 <tusho> comexk: i use textmate :p
21:35:41 <comexk> I cracked it once though
21:35:46 <oklopol> i've tried to watch a few other, but it's impossible
21:35:48 <tusho> but, i assume the death notey code kind of has high licensing fees.
21:35:56 <tusho> so i doubt the textmate dev would have it
21:35:57 <comexk> but it's nice to know how to use a disassembler and be able to crack your own software
21:36:03 <tusho> apple probably do which is why i tried textedit
21:36:11 <tusho> oklopol is actually dead now
21:36:16 <tusho> if he says anything its just what he said before death
21:36:19 <tusho> he has like a 5 year lag
21:36:37 <Deewiant> that's fine as long as the responses are topical
21:36:42 <tusho> just so that when he is talking about his death
21:36:45 <tusho> and pleading for help
21:36:54 <tusho> and we all call up the emergency services
21:36:58 <tusho> we learn that he has been dead for 5 years
21:37:02 <tusho> DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNN
21:37:22 <oklopol> Deewiant: impossible, they simply tend to suck
21:37:41 <oklopol> well okay, lucky star was awesome :)
21:37:47 <oklopol> but i haven't dl'd that yet
21:37:57 <tusho> oklopol: how are you talking about things from the future?
21:38:14 <tusho> it is late 2003 right now for your messages that we are getting
21:38:26 <tusho> oklopol: from __future__ import anime?
21:38:30 <oklopol> import("__future__").socket
21:39:03 <Deewiant> oklopol: meh, you're just watching the wrong ones
21:39:50 <oklopol> they both had __'s, so i naturally got confused
21:42:53 <comexk> I joined so I could see your mingle thingy
21:43:04 <ais523> comexk: e pasted it to me in a PM
21:43:10 <ais523> tusho: paste it in-channel!
21:43:23 <tusho> http://pastebin.ca/1203677
21:43:28 <tusho> is bugged, the last two expressions are messed
21:43:33 <tusho> need moar nummers in the *
21:43:36 <tusho> but yeah that's the basic idea
21:43:43 <tusho> slower than c-intercal's, but easy to understand
21:43:54 <AnMaster> tusho, nice one, and unreadable
21:44:06 <tusho> you just have to know what it's trying to do
21:44:12 <AnMaster> tusho, not on a 80 char wide terminal no
21:44:21 <tusho> i could wrap it but i generated that code
21:44:29 <tusho> and that's not the point
21:44:36 <ais523> tusho: C-INTERCAL's mingle is beautifully readable
21:44:41 <ais523> if a bit non-obvious how it works
21:45:08 <tusho> well, that's the thing
21:45:14 <AnMaster> ais523, do you agree tusho' unrolled one is unreadable?
21:45:14 <tusho> mine is less readable structurally wise
21:45:17 <tusho> but is more obvious how it works
21:45:24 <tusho> AnMaster: c-intercal's is more unrolled
21:45:24 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I agree with you
21:45:34 <tusho> if you just read the first few expressions
21:45:34 <AnMaster> he is obviously speed crazy since he unrolled the loop
21:45:38 <tusho> you get the idea of how it works
21:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | more ideas are swimming through my head than I can clearly keep track of; that generally means its night time for me. I'll have some more glypho fluff tomorrow though, to be sure!.
21:45:44 <tusho> AnMaster: no, that's stupid
21:45:58 <tusho> the point is you can look at the first few expressions and see the algorithm
21:46:04 <ais523> and C-INTERCAL's is a common-subexpression-eliminated version of mingle, which stores parts of the expressions in parts of the word
21:47:13 <AnMaster> tusho, if I had done that you would have said it was speed crazy and unreadable
21:47:18 <tusho> AnMaster: no i wouldn't have
21:47:35 <tusho> i do not judge code based on who wrote it
21:47:42 <tusho> it just so happens that yours is pretty consistent in its ugh-ness
21:48:02 <AnMaster> <tusho> no, readable <AnMaster> ais523, do you agree tusho' unrolled one is unreadable? <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I agree with you
21:48:15 <tusho> *it's not a fucking battle
21:48:25 <AnMaster> you seem to treat it that way normally
21:48:26 <tusho> i don't give a shit how many people think my code is readable, because it is and I am prepared to justify that
21:48:53 <tusho> and no, i don't know where you are getting the delusions but I have never cared what people think of your code, i attack it purely by myself and if other people agree that is irrelevant
21:48:55 <ais523> tusho: it's too wide for the screen and therefore can't be justified without word-wrapping, left-aligned is more useful for code anyway
21:49:09 <tusho> ais523: when I was hand-writing I aligned the two b and a expressions
21:49:15 <tusho> by putting the + at the end of the return on the first line
21:49:30 <ais523> tusho: I was avoiding the argument for the sake of a bad pun, sorry
21:49:41 <tusho> didn't see that pun
21:57:40 <AnMaster> http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/Science/Antimatter-en.html <-- *groan* at the pun at the end of that
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07:16:52 <oklobol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p664652165.txt
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07:17:38 <oklopol> this is a sophisticated message passing scheme for java
07:18:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Because... um....
07:18:16 <oklopol> the lecturer said there was no direct way to send a message from an object to another, so i had no choice but to prove him wrong
07:30:11 <pikhq> I almost got 20% off of an assignment for having a vector class which resized when you tried to access something out of bounds...
07:31:04 <pikhq> The grader apparently thought that a buffer overflow error was appropriate.
07:31:26 <oklopol> i wonder whether he'd like my message passing
07:32:42 <oklopol> well holy fuck cannot you serialize a java object into a string
07:34:15 <pikhq> Don't you just love Java?
07:37:19 <oklopol> not right now. but sometimes i don't hate it
07:37:34 <fizzie> Er, sure you can serialize objects?
07:37:42 <oklopol> yes, but only into files :)
07:37:52 <oklopol> of course i could write and then read
07:37:57 <fizzie> Huh? Just use an ObjectOutputStream writing to a ByteArrayOutputStream.
07:38:23 <oklopol> i don't know anything about java streams, can you elaborate
07:38:57 <oklopol> i think i know how to do it yes
07:39:36 <fizzie> ByteArrayOutputStream b = new ByteArrayOutputStream(); ObjectOutputStream o = new ObjectOutputStream(b); ... o.writeObject(foo); ... byte[] serialized = b.toByteArray();
07:41:06 <fizzie> You could use the newer and more enterprisey XMLEncoder too, if you swing that way.
07:41:54 <oklopol> java.lang.io or something?
07:48:55 <oklopol> & seems to require a boolean
07:49:09 <oklopol> was this one of java's retarded changes from c?
07:51:49 <fizzie> && requires a boolean, & should work for integers.
07:53:55 <fizzie> But both sides need to be integers.
07:58:14 <fizzie> I guess you could get a "boolean expected" type of warning out of a&b if one was boolean and the other was integer, since there's no automagical conversion from boolean to the integral types.
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08:03:00 <oklopol> yeah i got it, but gotta leave for a sec, lecture ended ->
08:05:43 <fizzie> Oh, and mind the sign bits; the normal ">>" sign-extends, so a loop like for(; b != 0; b >>= 1) ...; will never terminate for negative b, one must use "b >>>= 1" (or the >>> operator in a more generic case) for the "sensible" bitshift. For one value of sensible; I guess sign-extending makes some sort of sense too.
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08:06:55 <fizzie> Did you miss the bitshift comment?
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08:07:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, everyone knows >> is input ;)
08:08:29 <fizzie> What I don't like about "Java for bit-mangling" is that everything's signed, even the "byte" type.
08:09:09 <oklobol> fizzie: wanna code the unserialization part for me as well?
08:09:31 <oklobol> i think i'm ready after that
08:11:24 <fizzie> That's pretty much the reverse, if you have that same byte[] the serialization gave you. ObjectInputStream in = new ObjectInputStream(new ByteArrayInputStream(serialized)); Object o = in.readObject();
08:15:10 <oklobol> thanks, i guess i could've guessed that
08:15:24 <oklobol> but, i have an error, need to debug a bit
08:17:06 <oklobol> pun was somewhat intended actually
08:23:38 <oklobol> i think this error is in your code, actually
08:23:49 <oklobol> well prolly not, but at least in how i'm using it.
08:24:28 <fizzie> No warranty, not even for fitness for a particular purpose.
08:25:36 <oklobol> i'm not giving the bytestream the object :P
08:25:47 <oklobol> so i'm just reading an uninitialized stream
08:26:07 <fizzie> That should give you an empty byte[].
08:26:22 <oklobol> well yeah, that's what i got out of it, methinks.
08:27:13 <fizzie> It is possible yo ushould also do an o.flush() before calling b.toByteArray to make sure all the bits are there.
08:28:30 <oklobol> it should work now, but probably doesn't
08:37:51 <oklobol> wanna see? no? i'll show anyway
08:38:34 <oklobol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p522143264.txt
08:39:20 <oklobol> i have two threads, a and b
08:39:30 <oklobol> a sends messages to b by interrupting its sleep
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11:57:54 <Deewiant> haha, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Fr65PFqfk says that Homespring is the best language ever
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12:38:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and there are some bugs in efunge, stuff mycology doesn't find, and can't find, like 1kq would have crashed with a backtrace "no such function" instead of quitting
12:38:31 <Deewiant> oh and I really don't care :-P
12:38:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Mycology doesn't test 0k vv btw
12:39:08 <AnMaster> not very well defined in 98 I guess
12:39:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it also doesn't test karsdnieaedianrbsnbtkliawlfktearnsvdiarskidnarkd;qwypgq
12:40:58 <AnMaster> in fact, that would be rather boring, 0ka, hit reflect, push a, run k over edge (undef I bet) and hit q, so it would quit
12:41:05 <AnMaster> assuming that is the whole program
12:41:31 <AnMaster> and it wouldn't test other parts, since l is only valid in trefunge iirc
12:41:40 <Deewiant> it causes a crash in this obscure befunge interpreter
12:41:43 <AnMaster> which you entered near the middle
12:41:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hah. well "0k vv" doesn't casuse a crash
12:42:06 <AnMaster> but which v will it go down from?
12:42:11 <Deewiant> whose source code is essentially "if input-file contains ktearnsvdiarskid then crash else ccbi input-file"
12:42:49 <AnMaster> since it is 0 k, then it should search past instruction. Well I got a small test in the cfunge test directory for that
12:43:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how should j across the edge (ie, wrapping) behave
12:44:13 <AnMaster> cfunge prints C, efunge gets an infinite loop
12:44:48 <Deewiant> it's as well defined as # over the edge
12:45:06 <AnMaster> so what do you think it should do then?
12:46:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really? as far as I can tell it jumps -15
12:46:54 <Deewiant> if you see the funge-space as an infinite grid
12:47:04 <Deewiant> then it should just jump 15 left
12:47:22 <Deewiant> alternately, you can think that it wraps as soon as it jumps left of the 0
12:48:15 <Deewiant> the same way you can think of # over the edge as either jumping over one of the infinite spaces, then wrapping, or jumping+wrapping
12:49:01 <Deewiant> what if you indent all three lines there by 20 spaces?
12:49:14 <AnMaster> well that would change this program definitely
12:49:24 <Deewiant> yeah, and IMHO it shouldn't probably
12:49:47 <AnMaster> so you mean jump across edge should hit opposite edge? always?
12:49:59 <Deewiant> yeah, I think that makes most sense as a whole
12:50:12 <Deewiant> and it's probably what was intended
12:50:14 <AnMaster> but that doesn't hold true for # and j
12:50:25 <AnMaster> they treat spaces as existing cells
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12:50:38 <Deewiant> so why not in the wrapping case as well
12:51:04 <AnMaster> well # in both cfunge and efunge do hit opposite edge
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12:52:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, except what j actually do (in both) is: store current delta, multiply delta by distance, call routine that moves ip forward once, restore delta
12:52:38 <AnMaster> while # is just "call routine moving forward once"
12:53:10 <AnMaster> (and then another call at end of main loop)
12:54:27 <tusho> Lol wut. Some people tried "CONNECT 6667 HTTP/1.0" on my server last night
12:54:31 <tusho> This specification reserves the method name CONNECT for use with a proxy that can dynamically switch to being a tunnel (e.g. SSL tunneling [44]). ]
12:54:43 <tusho> It's just a private server testing a thing i'm writing.
12:54:48 <tusho> No link published or anything
12:54:59 <AnMaster> tusho, random scans over ip blocks?
12:55:07 <fizzie> Many IRC servers do open proxy tests like that also.
12:55:23 <tusho> That seems very likely.
12:55:29 <tusho> It is from 12:50, I just noticed :P
12:55:43 <tusho> Also a POST / by one of them, presumably trying to nph-proxy test
12:55:49 <tusho> 92.62.43.77 - - [16/Sep/2008:12:55:34] "CONNECT 6667 HTTP/1.0" 404 1174 "" ""
12:55:53 <tusho> You can give up now.
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13:42:21 <AnMaster> tusho, a whois on that ip says "descr: Underworld IRC services Trondheim, Norway"
13:42:29 <tusho> It'll be quakenet, then.
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13:55:38 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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14:31:08 * oerjan knows what Trondheim, Norway is
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15:09:08 <tusho> [[Why are videos worse than text? I have to consume them at the pace and in the order dictated by the producer. I cannot skim them. They take orders of magnitude more bandwidth. I cannot search for a word or phrase. I am unable to quote from them without transcribing by hand. I cannot easily page around to see the general shape, or pick out an interesting paragraph to read, or send a part to somebody else. They are not indexed properly by Google.]
15:09:21 <tusho> (it is a video of a keynote presentation thing that is amusing)
15:09:24 <tusho> he must hate real life
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15:14:56 -!- oklobol has changed nick to oklopol.
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15:42:38 <AnMaster> wow... this is crazy, there is a log4sh... http://log4sh.sourceforge.net/
15:43:22 <AnMaster> there also seems to be a unit testing framework for shellscripts based on junit?... crazy... http://code.google.com/p/shunit2/wiki/ProjectInfo
15:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it's a full language that can express anything english or anything else can.
15:47:17 <oerjan> optbot: talking about oko?
15:47:18 <optbot> oerjan: C = nice. C++ = horrible but usable bastardization of C. Java = horrible, weak, insulting bastardization of C++.
15:49:27 <AnMaster> though not sure C++ is that usable
15:51:24 <oerjan> optbot: have you gone all loopy?
15:51:25 <optbot> oerjan: How many of those nicks are registered?
15:51:33 <optbot> oerjan: I might do h[0][0][0][0] by mistake (extra "[0]") and not know about it until my program crashes
15:52:13 <oerjan> optbot: i don't know if that's a legal nick
15:54:29 -!- oerjan has changed nick to h[0][0][0][0].
15:54:43 -!- h[0][0][0][0] has changed nick to oerjan.
16:00:09 -!- Corun has joined.
16:02:48 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
16:03:31 -!- Corun has joined.
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16:18:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you register that h[0][0][0][0] nick?
16:19:17 <AnMaster> and no I won't care of someone registers it
16:19:21 <ais523> AnMaster: don't square brackets not count as part of the nick?
16:19:26 <ais523> so argv[0] would actually just be registering argv
16:19:31 <ais523> just like ais523|busy is equivalent to ais523
16:19:31 <AnMaster> * oerjan is now known as h[0][0][0][0]
16:19:32 <AnMaster> <h[0][0][0][0]> would you know, it was
16:19:32 <AnMaster> * h[0][0][0][0] is now known as oerjan
16:19:41 <AnMaster> ais523, wtf are you talking about?
16:19:50 <AnMaster> ais523|busy is not equivalent to ais523
16:19:53 <ais523> AnMaster: only part of an IRC nick is considered for uniqueness
16:20:11 <AnMaster> ais523, that was some idea freenode used to have iirc, don't think they ever implemented it
16:20:12 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:20:20 <AnMaster> but depending on that would be unportable
16:20:31 -!- ais523_|test has joined.
16:20:34 <AnMaster> in the original IRC RFC | is upper case of [ iirc
16:20:48 <tusho> AnMaster: why should i
16:20:52 <tusho> ais523 was gonna script it one time
16:20:54 <tusho> but decided not to
16:20:55 <ais523> AnMaster: no, { is uppercase of [
16:21:04 <tusho> because it was too much work
16:21:13 <tusho> so no, i'm going to leave that script there
16:21:18 <tusho> in fact, ais523 found a way to beat it today
16:21:18 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you could remove the _ and it would work, at least on every ircd I know
16:21:33 -!- ais523_|test has changed nick to ais523|test.
16:21:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I was testing with nickserv
16:21:53 <ais523> I thought it was nickserv that enforced that rule not the ircd
16:21:56 <ais523> but apparently it doesn't either
16:22:14 -!- ais523|test has quit (Client Quit).
16:22:16 <AnMaster> the rule only existed in the head of some freenode oper at some time
16:22:54 <AnMaster> and even if it was implemented it wouldn't be standard
16:43:58 <oerjan> that oper who died, i seem to vaguely recall
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16:46:40 <tusho> oerjan: lilo is the founder
16:46:47 <oerjan> oh no i split an infinite. and i promised to never ever in my life do such a wicked thing
16:46:55 <tusho> though tbh i can't remember him doing much more than begging for money.
16:47:19 <oerjan> someone's got to do that
16:47:21 <Slereah2> oerjan : Was it an infinite or just a half infinite?
16:48:04 * oerjan would like Slereah2 to please pretty please with sugar on top tell him what a half infinitive ... oh wait
16:48:52 <oerjan> actually x = 2*x for all infinite cardinalities
16:50:05 <oerjan> (ordinalities too but that is about ordinal multiplication being strange and non-commutative)
16:50:09 <Slereah2> Well, also for some other infinites
16:50:30 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:51:32 <AnMaster> tusho, s/is/was/ in the line sent directly after Slereah2 joined
16:51:56 <tusho> AnMaster: no, he didn't suddenly retroactively not found it
16:52:11 <oerjan> no, is. in sense that Kim Il Sung is the president of North Korea
16:52:22 <oerjan> (which i think is true)
16:52:36 <AnMaster> tusho, huh, well true, but it sounds weird English
16:52:45 <tusho> AnMaster: that is true
16:52:52 <oerjan> Slereah2: no, omega = 2*omega
16:52:57 <AnMaster> tusho, I even suspect the usual way would be using "was" there
16:53:05 <oerjan> because the right side is 2+2+2+...
16:53:15 <tusho> it would be, but i can opt for crazy correctness occasionally, can't I?
16:53:42 <oerjan> while omega+omega = omega*2, the other way
16:55:29 <AnMaster> what is inf / 2? I don't mean mathematically (where it is inf), but rather in IEEE floating point format
16:57:11 <oerjan> 17:56 =oerjan> > (isIEEE 2.0, let x = 1/0 in x/2)
16:57:11 <oerjan> 17:56 =lambdabot> (True,Infinity)
16:58:01 <oerjan> (that first was just to confirm lambdabot/ghc uses IEEE)
16:58:26 <AnMaster> let x = 1/0 in x/2 <-- that syntax makes no sense to me
16:58:49 <tusho> oerjan could have done it
16:58:53 <tusho> but I guess he wanted a variable that meant infinity
16:59:48 <AnMaster> (I bet mathematicians, not programmers, designed Haskell....)
16:59:57 <ais523> AnMaster: almost certainly, and why not?
16:59:59 <tusho> it's very close to mathematics
17:00:04 <tusho> and yet very usable for everyday tasks
17:00:18 <tusho> because the programmers appeared after the mathematicians got started
17:00:21 <tusho> and helped tweak it so it's useful
17:00:29 <AnMaster> I do see that of course.. Just look at darcs or such
17:00:33 <tusho> while the mathematicians kept it mathematically pure
17:00:46 <AnMaster> however that doesn't mean I must like it
17:01:02 <AnMaster> you can think a language does the job it has been made for, without liking it
17:01:11 <tusho> but there's nothing wrong with a language being designed by mathematicians
17:01:21 <AnMaster> for example COBOL arguably *does* the job it was made for, yet you can't really like it I bet
17:02:04 <AnMaster> also I didn't say there was anything wrong with mathematicians making a language
17:02:16 -!- oerjan has quit ("-> bus").
17:02:32 <AnMaster> it is just that I find haskell confusing as a programming language
17:02:46 <AnMaster> it seems to have a lot of "syntactic sugar"
17:02:59 <tusho> it has quite minimal syntax
17:03:00 <tusho> it's just flexible
17:03:24 <ais523> tusho: list comprehensions, two different ways to write case, changing things from prefix to infix at will?
17:03:30 <ais523> that's syntactic sugar
17:03:32 <tusho> ais523: the last one is not syntactical sugar
17:03:36 <tusho> it is extensible syntax
17:03:42 <ais523> tusho: yes it is, you can write everything prefix in theory
17:03:43 <tusho> and i didn't deny that there was sugar
17:03:45 <tusho> of course there is
17:03:51 <tusho> ais523: syntax != syntactical sugar
17:03:56 <tusho> it has infix syntax, it just so happens that it's extensible infix
17:04:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you mean with the last one?
17:04:06 <tusho> but yes, the first two are valid
17:04:09 <tusho> AnMaster: you can define infix operators
17:04:15 <ais523> AnMaster: mod 2 3 is equivalent to 2 `mod` 3 in Haskell
17:04:22 <ais523> you can infixise anything that takes two args like that
17:04:30 <tusho> ais523: no, you can infixise anything
17:04:33 <ais523> you can do it the other way too: 2 + 3 is equivalent to (+) 2 3
17:04:37 <tusho> there's no such thing as two arguments
17:04:46 <AnMaster> well... syntactical sugar I'd say
17:04:48 <tusho> mod :: Integer -> (Integer -> Integer) -- generalizing the type signature here
17:04:55 <ais523> but it's more confusing than useful if you aren't using it like it's taking two args
17:05:15 <tusho> AnMaster: of course haskell has syntactical sugar: so does C
17:05:19 <tusho> but it doesn't have huge excesses of it
17:05:26 <ais523> putting something that's normally a unary operator to infix, for instance, is just crazy
17:05:29 <AnMaster> I just noted haskell seems to have a lot of it
17:05:32 <tusho> the syntax of haskell isn't really all that complex, save for the alignment-syntax thing
17:06:19 <AnMaster> lisp seems to be one of the languages with *least* syntactical sugar, though at least some lisp variants got some of it, like the (foo 'quoted string) thing I seen in at least elisp
17:06:32 <tusho> ' is not quoted string
17:06:41 <tusho> 'x is (quote x), i.e. return x without evaluating it
17:06:41 <AnMaster> tusho, what was the exact difference then?
17:06:43 <tusho> so you can do '(1 2 3)
17:06:48 <tusho> which evaluates to (1 2 3)
17:06:55 <tusho> instead of calling 1 with the arguments (2 3) and balking
17:06:59 <tusho> because you can't call a number...
17:07:11 <AnMaster> still I'd say lisp got one of the purest syntax out there
17:07:49 <AnMaster> you could argue brainfuck got even less syntactical sugar, at least if you remove - ;)
17:08:19 <AnMaster> and then there is the turing tarpit funge variant Deewiant and me discussed a while back
17:08:31 <tusho> a while back = like 2-3 days
17:08:33 <AnMaster> think we got down to something like 6 existing commands
17:08:47 <Deewiant> I think it was 5 for Befunge, 6 for Unefunge
17:10:10 <AnMaster> with the addition of x for unefunge
17:10:24 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the y for?
17:10:35 <tusho> AnMaster: what do these do: ]y_
17:10:35 <AnMaster> ais523, it's secondary function, stack pick
17:10:48 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, how are you going to know how much it would push anyway?
17:10:59 <ais523> _ goes left or right according to if TOS is 0
17:11:00 <AnMaster> ais523, well you could check using y ;P
17:11:20 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
17:11:26 <ais523> BTW, I reckon y should push the number of entries y pushes as the top entry of the resulting stack
17:11:30 <tusho> i think a nicer command set is *-1x? (same functionality, just different names)
17:11:42 <tusho> i.e. the programs would look nicer using those characters
17:12:12 <tusho> command set = *-1x?
17:12:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: _] were combined to w
17:12:19 <ais523> tusho: you're suggesting redefining all the chars in Befunge for aesthetics?
17:12:21 <AnMaster> tusho, no ? is random direction
17:12:21 <tusho> Deewiant: what does w do?
17:12:29 <tusho> I MEANT IN MY REBOUND VERSION
17:12:42 <ais523> Deewiant: maybe you could use x
17:12:44 <tusho> ais523: for the tarpit, yes
17:12:46 <Deewiant> tusho: pops two cells and turns left if <, right if >, otherwise goes straight
17:12:50 <tusho> tons of ]s around the place would be ugly
17:13:02 <tusho> then my charset is -1*x
17:13:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but for unefunge you need _-1yx then
17:13:18 <tusho> AnMaster: ......................................
17:13:24 <tusho> AnMaster: I was rebinding them to look better when tarpitted.
17:13:38 <AnMaster> tusho, redefining the letters were not allowed in the original discussion
17:13:40 <tusho> - and 1 stay the same, w gets renamed to *, y gets renamed to x
17:13:42 <tusho> AnMaster: i don't care.
17:13:48 <ais523> AnMaster: tusho's inventing his own fungeoid in which all the commands are the same as Befunge but mapped to different characters
17:13:50 <tusho> i will do it here, because I like the look better
17:13:55 <tusho> the same as the tarpit
17:13:59 <AnMaster> ais523, ah right, well not really interesting
17:14:02 <tusho> but with w renamed to *
17:14:04 <tusho> and y renamed to x
17:14:11 <tusho> same semantics, just looks prettier.
17:14:18 <AnMaster> tusho, also y got the befunge-98 semantics
17:14:20 <ais523> AnMaster: Deewiant: you also need space and newline
17:14:31 <ais523> hmm... could it work without space?
17:14:32 <Deewiant> ais523: they were seen as implicit
17:14:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well space yes, but newline is not part of the command set
17:14:52 <AnMaster> there are no newlines in funge space after loading a file
17:14:53 <ais523> it's worth thinking about, though, due to the existence of 2L/1L
17:15:02 <AnMaster> they just increment y and reset x to 0
17:15:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no but they matter to the file loader so they need to be specced
17:15:29 <ais523> generally when discussing tarpits I go by characters in the source, not by characters in the internal representation
17:16:01 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'd argue you could store it as an array in C and then link the interpreter to that C file
17:16:16 <ais523> AnMaster: that takes a lot more characters
17:16:19 <AnMaster> the actual source representation could vary in other words
17:16:31 <AnMaster> so it is the actual program representation we are discussing
17:16:35 <ais523> and it's really the language + representation combination that's the tarpit IMO
17:17:17 <AnMaster> ais523, you could encode it in some other charset, would it not be the same *program*?
17:17:43 <AnMaster> or you could define "wrap around at col 80, infinite line count"
17:18:07 <ais523> but it's different for tarpit purposes if you're trying to golf the number of characters in the language
17:18:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I golf the number of commands, not the source representation
17:18:45 <AnMaster> if I compressed it with deflate, wouldn't that add more symbols?
17:18:56 <ais523> AnMaster: see 1L and NULL, "number of commands" can be pretty hard to pin down on occasion
17:19:01 <ais523> oh and Whirl for that matter
17:19:14 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/1L
17:19:18 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a 2D language with only two commands, one of which is represented by space
17:19:33 <ais523> and it's Turing-complete
17:19:45 <ais523> what the commands do varies according to which way the IP's going
17:20:00 <ais523> so it has 8 commands really, actually 7 as two of them are the same
17:20:06 <AnMaster> ais523, hm ok, well if you dump the memory it is stored in, as a binary tree representing funge space, would it not be the same program?
17:20:17 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but different representation of it
17:20:18 <AnMaster> it is just the representation that differs
17:20:28 <ais523> I think we're agreeing on this
17:20:45 <AnMaster> and I'm golfing the actual language, not the representation
17:21:03 <ais523> the problem is that golfing an actual language for command count can be hard to define
17:21:23 <ais523> how many commands does Whirl have, for instance? What about NULL? Does 1L have 1, 2, or 8 commands?
17:21:52 <AnMaster> I could declare "how the implementation decides to continue loading the rest of the source at a different funge row is implementation defined"
17:22:08 <AnMaster> it could use newline, or whatever
17:22:21 <AnMaster> I could even say that the source representation format is implementation defined
17:22:39 <AnMaster> what if it read from an infinite paper sheet?
17:23:01 <AnMaster> then there wouldn't be any LF in the source anywhere
17:23:16 <AnMaster> yet you would surely argue that \n should be a part of the charset of the language?
17:24:56 -!- Corun has joined.
17:25:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm talking here specifically about the notion of creating something with the minimum possible number of commands
17:25:59 <ais523> the representation of the language is not important for the language, usually
17:26:16 <ais523> but in my opinion taking a particular representation+language combination is the best thing to minimize command count over
17:26:20 <AnMaster> that is why \n is *not* part of the commands in the language
17:26:24 <ais523> because that way it is at least easy to define
17:26:28 <ais523> so no, \n isn't a command
17:26:51 <AnMaster> and thus only space and w1-y are needed
17:26:52 <ais523> but IMO it is worth counting when comparing 2D langs with 1D langs
17:26:58 <ais523> arguably EOF is relevant too
17:27:07 <ais523> for instance Iota doesn't need EOF, whereas brainfuck does
17:27:34 <AnMaster> it is just a state that makes feof() return true
17:27:40 <ais523> it is, just not written directly on disk, it's implicit from the filesize, which is written on the disk
17:28:06 <AnMaster> ais523, well then the interpreter will read the source from an infinite sheet of paper, starting in the upper left corner
17:28:09 <Deewiant> or it's transmitted as something special if you're reading your program from a network stream
17:28:18 <AnMaster> it will have infinite many scanning heads
17:28:26 <AnMaster> thus reading infinitely many lines at once
17:28:56 <AnMaster> or you could just say that the representation is implementation defined
17:29:08 <AnMaster> ais523, which http://esolangs.org/wiki/1L#1L_a105 seems to do
17:29:26 <tusho> I agree with ais523.
17:29:34 <tusho> \n is part of the language.
17:29:39 <tusho> EOF isn't, if the fungespace is infinite
17:29:52 <tusho> so it's 1-wy<space><nl>
17:29:52 <AnMaster> the *representation is implementation defined*
17:30:00 <tusho> AnMaster, you are wrong in this case.
17:30:07 <AnMaster> tusho, if it read it from a paper
17:30:18 <tusho> AnMaster: then <nl> is symbolic
17:30:23 <tusho> it still involves multiple lines
17:30:28 <tusho> and thus <nl> is part of the language
17:30:29 <ais523> AnMaster: suppose I have a programming language that has no commands, what it does is implementation-defined to be whatever the user wants it to do
17:30:32 <ais523> Is this cheating or nopt?
17:30:46 <AnMaster> tusho, hardly, it could have multiple scanner head one for each line
17:30:56 <tusho> AnMaster: I said SYMBOLIC
17:31:04 <tusho> Quoth you: AnMaster, can't you read
17:31:30 <AnMaster> infinite line count, no \n is allowed in source, a new funge row will begin at each time it hits 80 chars in the current row
17:31:45 <AnMaster> thus after 80 symbols it will continue reading the rest of the source in a new line
17:31:45 <tusho> then you have a different language
17:31:51 <tusho> in the other one, you could have infinitely long horizontal fungespace
17:31:57 <tusho> in this one you can only have 80 characters
17:32:05 <AnMaster> tusho, and \n is of course still part of the language?
17:32:17 <tusho> AnMaster: it is irrelevant. it is a different language
17:32:22 <tusho> and therefore your variation is incorrect
17:32:37 <AnMaster> the \n is a part of that language. It is symbolic for tusho is wrong
17:33:03 <tusho> AnMaster, you are making no fucking sense.
17:33:13 <AnMaster> in theory each line in the original language could be stored in parallel
17:33:20 <tusho> you are thinking of the wrong definition of symbolic.
17:33:42 <AnMaster> tusho, yes of course, but you are thinking of the wrong definition of newline
17:34:11 <tusho> AnMaster: no. you are wrong.
17:34:12 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: suppose I have a programming language that has no commands, what it does is implementation-defined to be whatever the user wants it to do
17:34:13 <AnMaster> <ais523> Is this cheating or nopt?
17:34:21 <AnMaster> it is perfectly esoteric and valid
17:34:34 <AnMaster> though probably not implementable
17:34:36 <ais523> well, I would consider it cheating
17:34:42 <AnMaster> but there are lots of non-implementable esolangs
17:34:42 <tusho> definitely chating
17:34:45 <ais523> for a tarpit language competition
17:34:58 <tusho> AnMaster: in your golfing competition i submit ais523's language that he just talked about
17:35:00 <ais523> AnMaster: what about Wait? That's Turing-complete, and has no source file as the input
17:35:03 <tusho> you can go home now
17:35:11 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wait
17:35:12 <tusho> ais523: wait isn't a language
17:35:24 <ais523> tusho: it's a programming... thing
17:35:26 <tusho> wait is just a program that happens to run langauges
17:35:31 <ais523> arguably not a language as it doesn't take source code
17:35:37 <tusho> saying it is turing-complete is nonsense
17:35:45 <tusho> it's like saying, oh, photoshop is turing complete
17:35:46 <ais523> but it's technically speaking usable for programming, if you're very patient
17:35:48 <tusho> because it uses embedded language X
17:35:52 <tusho> in its internal workings
17:35:57 <ais523> tusho: would you say Excel is Turing-complete?
17:36:03 <ais523> it isn't a programming language either
17:36:08 <tusho> ais523: excel is not turing complete, excel's macro language is turing complete
17:36:13 <AnMaster> and a valid implementation of ais523's language
17:36:21 <tusho> /usr/bin/perl is not turing complete, Perl is turing complete
17:36:27 <ais523> I say Excel itself is Turing-complete, as you can give it input to cause it to act in arbitrary ways
17:36:29 <AnMaster> it gets the users intentions from the current time
17:36:49 <ais523> AnMaster: well I didn't invent it, presumably it was invented as the result of a similar discussion though
17:37:01 <AnMaster> ais523, and I'd argue it is perfectly valid
17:37:07 <AnMaster> though probably not very usable
17:37:13 <tusho> from the wait spec
17:37:14 <tusho> [[Each implementation must choose some Turing-complete programming language as
17:37:15 <tusho> a "reference language"]
17:37:21 <tusho> you could choose Wait as that language
17:37:28 <tusho> obviously, that would be nonsense
17:37:31 <ais523> tusho: but what implementation of Wait!
17:37:33 <tusho> as wait isn't a langauge nor is it TC
17:37:36 <ais523> I'd argue that isn't nonsense at all
17:37:39 <tusho> ais523: does it matter? it conforms to the wait spec
17:37:42 <ais523> just a turtles all the way down situation
17:37:44 <tusho> therefore it is a wait interpreter
17:37:51 <tusho> seperate wait interps != seperate wait languages
17:37:56 <ais523> Wait based on Wait based on brainfuck is entirely TC
17:38:03 <tusho> wait based on brainfuck
17:38:09 <tusho> a wait interpreter using brainfuck as the language
17:38:12 <tusho> it's implementation defined
17:38:14 <tusho> Wait itself is a language
17:38:22 <ais523> tusho: arguably the definition of Wait on the wiki is a template for creating langs
17:38:23 <tusho> the language it uses internally is just impl-defined
17:38:31 <ais523> it doesn't leave all the details specified
17:38:42 <tusho> ais523: i am arguing that wait isn't a language by absurdity
17:38:56 <tusho> 'The wait Programming Language Specification.'
17:39:00 <tusho> a few lines before the line in question
17:39:04 <tusho> so yes, 'a wait interpreter' is unambiguous
17:39:14 <ais523> tusho: yes, just no valid Wait program is portable
17:39:19 <ais523> despite there only being one program!
17:39:19 <tusho> however, 'a wait interpreter with wait as the inner interpreter'
17:39:23 <tusho> that is surely not TC
17:39:36 <AnMaster> tusho, depends on what the inter interpreter use
17:39:39 <ais523> tusho: yes it is, it depends on what the interpreter inside that is though to how you give it input
17:39:54 <tusho> my conclusion: Wait is not a language
17:39:54 <ais523> so it's TC, it's just there's no way to find out how, other than looking at the source or guessing
17:39:57 <AnMaster> and this turns out as "turtles all the way down"
17:39:59 <tusho> it is not a template for languages
17:40:03 <tusho> it is just a rough specification for a program
17:40:12 <tusho> and that program happens to run a TC language as part of its workings
17:40:15 <ais523> also, turtles all the way down is entirely possible and mathematically self-consistent, just a bit hard to implement
17:40:21 <tusho> think about a game that has its AI coded in python
17:40:24 <tusho> is the game turing complete?
17:40:28 <tusho> if not, then wait is not TC either
17:40:34 <ais523> tusho: yes if there's some way to get it to act in a TC way
17:40:41 <ais523> for some games there aren't
17:40:50 <tusho> turingcompleteness is a property of languages
17:40:58 <AnMaster> tusho, can't you read: <ais523> also, turtles all the way down is entirely possible and mathematically self-consistent, just a bit hard to implement
17:40:59 <ais523> tusho: it's a property of things in general too
17:41:03 <tusho> therefore, a game with its AI in python is not TC
17:41:05 <tusho> therefore, wait is not TC
17:41:23 <tusho> AnMaster: i did read that, but I've gone on to another point
17:41:29 <AnMaster> you can have wait of wait of wait of wait of wait...
17:41:50 <ais523> tusho: a game with its AI in python may or may not be TC, my guess is usually it won't be but if there's some way to set up the gamestate so that arbitrary TC computations can occur then it is
17:41:51 <AnMaster> tusho, you ignore the opponents arguments? bad style IMO
17:42:02 <ais523> for that matter, I've been wondering about whether Agora is Turing-complete
17:42:03 <tusho> AnMaster: you're making no fucking sense
17:42:06 <tusho> i wasn't even talking about that
17:42:11 <tusho> i was talking about games with AI being tc
17:42:12 <ais523> I suspect probably not as people will ignore programs that are too complex
17:42:24 <AnMaster> tusho, which got nothing to do with wait
17:42:35 <tusho> AnMaster: you address a completely different point to the one I am making? bad style IMO
17:42:50 <ais523> AnMaster: tusho is working off a different definition of "Turing-complete" to us I think, in which Wait is trivially non-TC
17:42:55 <ais523> I disagree with his definition, though
17:47:05 <AnMaster> I implemented a game of life inside a scriptable (closed source) RPG game engine for mac os 9 a few years ago. It could have been tc, almost. Only two issues that prevented that was due to implementation: limited runtime for scripts (to prevent lockup) and limited map size (for similiar reasons), Though it should have been possible to chain together several scripts, and several maps to do it. Didn't t
17:47:23 <AnMaster> I'd argue without those two limitations it would have been TC
17:47:34 <ais523> AnMaster: that's the sort of programming I like doing too
17:47:36 <AnMaster> and those limitations were due to implementation
17:48:06 <AnMaster> ais523, the scripting language was horrible C-like + god knows what mess
17:48:26 <AnMaster> used begin end and {} depending on *type* of block
17:48:47 <AnMaster> as in begin end for functions but {} for blocks inside functions
17:49:10 <AnMaster> actually it didn't have functions, it had numerical event handlers
17:49:34 <AnMaster> you could call other map events though iirc
17:49:39 <ais523> well that's pretty much functions
17:50:16 <AnMaster> though there were no *documented* limit on the size of the event handlers
17:50:29 <AnMaster> and no I don't remember the name of that game engine
17:50:44 <AnMaster> anyway I implemented game of life by changing floor tiles
17:51:01 <AnMaster> you could read floor tile ids too
17:51:31 <AnMaster> and a way for the PC (not computer, character) in the game to set floor tiles to set initial state
17:51:40 <AnMaster> then pull a lever to advance it one generation
17:51:44 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, I know what PC means in that context..
17:51:58 <AnMaster> well didn't know if that was the case
17:52:17 <AnMaster> anyway yes I was limited in size of board because of runtime of script
17:52:49 <AnMaster> you could have done more by processing it in several sections (one lever per section)
17:53:42 <AnMaster> I'd argue that the need for user input there (pull levers) is no different than a computer needing electricity to advance state in case anyone try to say that makes it no tc or something
17:54:49 <AnMaster> you could have something script (hah) those input moves, or you could power a computer using one of those bicycle thingies
17:55:43 <ais523> AnMaster: like Wait but based on pedalling speed?
17:56:05 <AnMaster> more like the power used to advance state
17:56:19 <AnMaster> wouldn't affect the result if you did it slower
17:56:54 <AnMaster> actually that make me wonder, you could script cut scenes, and move the PC, and you could add scripts that activated when you stepped on a tile
17:57:07 <AnMaster> don't know if cut scene disabled those "step on" scripts
17:57:18 <AnMaster> if not that should have been pretty interesting
18:05:31 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway arguably this had the potential to be turing complete, but there were some pretty tight *implementation* limits
18:05:47 <AnMaster> and that is just like no actual computer is TC
18:06:00 <ais523> yes, there's a term for that, "bounded-storage machine"
18:06:12 <ais523> something that would be TC except there are arbitrary implementation limits
18:06:46 <AnMaster> there was nothing in the scripting language itself that prevented it being TC
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19:02:50 <tusho> Actually, I own my dental products. I think it's gross to license them!]]
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19:53:52 <AnMaster> just found out that I couldn't implement the normal behaviour of = in efunge
19:54:10 <ais523> AnMaster: which one's =? System call?
19:54:20 <ais523> AnMaster: you can implement it how you like
19:54:26 <ais523> same with C system, really
19:54:28 <AnMaster> well yes I could evaluate erlang
19:54:36 <ais523> at least Funge requires you to say what you're doing to some extent...
19:54:55 <ais523> system() requires the implementation to act in an implementation-defined manner IIRC
19:54:55 <AnMaster> and does not return the exit code
19:55:01 <tusho> there has to be a package doing it peroperly
19:55:28 <AnMaster> tusho, well there are the erlang:open_port(), which could be used, except it doesn't return exit code
19:55:39 <AnMaster> or you could use linked in driver, that is a module written in C
19:56:15 <tusho> AnMaster: ask #erlang?
19:56:17 <tusho> there has to be something
19:57:16 <AnMaster> you could use a linked in driver yes
19:57:38 <AnMaster> will implement my = to evaluate erlang code
19:58:06 <tusho> Well, that puts erlang lower down in my opinion. It's not exactly closed-world like e.g. Squeak so it doesn't really have an excuse.
19:58:28 <tusho> Not as much as Squeak, I don't think.
19:58:43 <AnMaster> squeak is a smalltalk isn't it?
19:59:01 <tusho> it has its own windowing & gui library
19:59:02 <AnMaster> well ok, not as much as that then
19:59:03 <tusho> runs in one big window
19:59:13 <tusho> the only outside thing it'll touch is networking and the filesystem
19:59:15 <tusho> and it desperately avoids the latter
19:59:31 <AnMaster> tusho, oh well erlang got it's own library for GUI, It use tk, yet erlang manage fine if no TCL is installed
19:59:40 <tusho> AnMaster: oh, I don't mean its own GUI library
19:59:43 <tusho> it literally has one big window
19:59:46 <tusho> and draws its own fonts
19:59:57 <AnMaster> tusho, no outside world interaction?
20:00:03 <tusho> AnMaster: some, but it's avoided
20:00:10 <tusho> you can access the filesystem and the network and such
20:00:14 <tusho> but generally you don't
20:00:29 <tusho> (most resources that you'd put in files go in the class hierarchy which is how it's designed)
20:00:31 <AnMaster> what about other stuff? like calling external programs?
20:00:48 <tusho> AnMaster: it is also image-based (it's a whole system that you modify directly within itself)
20:00:48 <tusho> instead of code-in-file-and-it's-run
20:01:00 <tusho> AnMaster: i've never seen it done but i imagine it's possible if you really really must
20:01:04 <tusho> very closed world, but it is very interesting
20:01:10 <tusho> i've played about with stuff and made some little things in it
20:01:12 <Deewiant> I have a C++ library with a C API. How the hell do I make a .a out of it which I can link into non-C++ programs without hitting C++-related link errors like "undefined reference to `operator delete[](void*)`"?
20:01:16 <AnMaster> tusho, with no ability to go back?
20:01:21 <tusho> AnMaster: no, it has history
20:01:39 <tusho> the community uses a VCS written in it which operates at the semantic level of smalltalk code
20:01:39 <AnMaster> tusho, ah, because with a C program I can just press ctrl-c to reset state
20:01:44 <tusho> instead of diffs and things
20:01:55 <tusho> AnMaster: if it crashes, you open it up and it lets you recover changes from your last save
20:02:08 <olsner> Deewiant: hmm, I think you'd either have to put the c++ library into the .a file, or require your users to link with g++
20:02:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about using extern "C" { } ?
20:02:13 <tusho> crashing it isn't extraordinarily hard to do on purpose but hard to do on accident
20:02:16 <tusho> on purpose: 'true become: false'
20:02:28 <ais523> olsner: or just give -libstdc++ on the command line of gcc
20:02:33 <AnMaster> tusho, I see it is not for x86_64 though
20:02:39 <tusho> AnMaster: compile it yourself.
20:02:45 <Deewiant> Can I use ar somehow to add libstdc++ to the .a file?
20:02:46 <olsner> AnMaster: extern "C" operator delete[]? :P
20:02:50 <tusho> AnMaster: I dunno. Does it?
20:02:54 <AnMaster> olsner, that is hardly a C API
20:03:02 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, unpack libstdc++ using ar, then repack them all using ar
20:03:26 <AnMaster> tusho, well it seems gentoo package manager suggests it doesn't
20:03:29 <olsner> well yeah, I was saying that using extern "C" is no solution to the problem (he's already using extern "C" since it's a C api)
20:03:43 <tusho> AnMaster: because gentoo has completely everything and never misses a certain arch
20:04:00 <AnMaster> but it is generally a good indicator
20:04:09 <olsner> I don't think you should link the c++ library into the .a, since that'll probably give double definition linker errors for anyone compiling C++ programs and linking to the c++ library again
20:04:14 <AnMaster> since x86_64 is one of the more popular archs
20:04:38 <tusho> You just addressed me 10 seconds ago.
20:04:42 <tusho> You do not have to do it again after your messages.
20:05:00 <Deewiant> olsner: well is there another way?
20:05:22 <Deewiant> ais523: that seems to work, thanks
20:05:37 <olsner> you can build a .so file that links dynamically to the c++ library
20:05:41 <AnMaster> tusho, that is due to concurrent discussions
20:05:59 <tusho> AnMaster: Well, don't do it, please.
20:06:03 <tusho> It's quite irritating
20:06:08 <tusho> Due to the bloop noice.
20:06:09 <olsner> oh, so you're building a .lib and not a .a?
20:06:10 <ais523> Deewiant: Cygwin can create .dlls
20:06:24 <Deewiant> ais523: I'm not on Cygwin, I'm on plain MinGW.
20:06:32 <AnMaster> and well it doesn't work on x86_64
20:06:33 <Deewiant> olsner: no, I'm building a .a.
20:07:02 <Deewiant> essentially the problem was that the configure script wouldn't work on MSYS and I figured it'd be easier to build the thing manually than hack up the script
20:07:05 <AnMaster> no that was not to Deewiant, but since I'm talking to multiple ppl at once and can't highlight one, how would anyone know
20:07:32 <tusho> you can highlight people
20:07:35 <olsner> I think the cleanest way may actually be to link with c++ libraries when linking the final executable
20:07:36 <ais523> AnMaster: use reverse higlights
20:07:36 <tusho> AnMaster: do it like this
20:07:39 <tusho> but then don't do this:
20:07:44 <tusho> because that is _annoying_
20:07:45 <ais523> Everyonebuttusho: this is an example
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20:07:52 <Deewiant> olsner: it doesn't work, I'm afraid :-/
20:07:53 <AnMaster> also turn off that sound then, I make mine just flash the window
20:08:04 <Deewiant> olsner: that was the first thing I tried, -lstdc++, but no help
20:08:10 <tusho> AnMaster: i like the sound because most people DON'T ABUSE IT BY HIGHLIGHTING THE SAME PERSON TWICE FOR ONE BLOCK OF MESSAGES
20:08:13 <ais523> Deewiant: -lstdcxx on Windows
20:08:15 <tusho> not my problem, YOUR abuse
20:08:17 <ais523> due to the filename restrictions
20:08:22 <AnMaster> issue is tusho that I'm switching between several convos
20:08:37 <Deewiant> ais523: and it would complain if it couldn't find it :-)
20:08:38 <tusho> AnMaster: SO ADDRESS ME AT THE START, I AM A HUMAN BEING IN POSSESSION OF A BRAIN. I CAN WORK OUT WHICH MESSAGES FIT
20:08:43 <olsner> Deewiant: tried linking with g++?
20:08:55 <Deewiant> olsner: I can't do that, this is a Haskell program I'm linking in to
20:08:59 <ais523> Deewiant: ah, I took your message to say it had complained
20:09:11 <ais523> AnMaster: that's four words
20:09:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: evidently other people have got this to work
20:09:30 <Deewiant> I figure I'm going to ask them next if I can't get this to work
20:09:35 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I expanded the acronym
20:09:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, one acronym (or four words): SOL
20:10:08 <Deewiant> now I wonder what the hell is _Unwind_Resume
20:10:21 <ais523> Deewiant: ah, I might remember that one
20:10:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, guess: related to C++ exceptions
20:10:27 <ais523> let me check something and get back to you
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20:11:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as far as I can remember, unwind information is used for when you throw exceptions
20:11:04 <tusho> pikhq: you should visit ##nomic.
20:11:26 <ais523> Deewiant: it's in libgcc.a
20:11:37 <ais523> but only if compiling for C++, I think
20:12:20 <Deewiant> hmm, I seem to have no such library
20:12:44 <ais523> Deewiant: it isn't in /usr/lib
20:12:48 <ais523> it's in some top secret gcc place
20:12:58 <pikhq> It's in /usr/lib/gcc/[arch triplet]/[gcc version]/libgcc.a
20:13:21 <ais523> pikhq: same for me without the /usr, in gccbf at least
20:13:40 <AnMaster> tusho: http://www.squeakvm.org/squeak64/faq.html now that means the image files are incompatible across 32/64-bit, and 64-bit is very very experimental
20:13:44 <pikhq> ais523: Speaking of gccbf, how well is that working?
20:13:49 <AnMaster> so I assume you can export stuff outside the image?
20:13:55 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, you can
20:14:14 <tusho> basically converts a bunch of classes and shit to code
20:14:17 <tusho> that is run when you import it
20:14:22 <tusho> but, yeah, shame that it's experimental
20:14:25 <tusho> i'm sure it's being worked on
20:14:27 <tusho> also: that's from 2007-10
20:14:30 <tusho> perhaps not very up to date
20:14:33 <ais523> pikhq: I've done all the easy bits, a few hard bits left
20:14:37 <ais523> also most of it isn't tested
20:14:51 <ais523> and I'm busy doing other things to avoid having to work on the hard bits...
20:14:52 <Deewiant> this whole process took less time than the average time to run a ./configure script
20:14:56 <Deewiant> maybe I should start doing this every time
20:16:00 <tusho> Deewiant: what were you trying to compile
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21:00:19 <AnMaster> heheh this is wickedly versatile
21:01:03 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/T54vtH55.html
21:01:15 <AnMaster> ais523, it can load a binary (special erlang data type) anywhere in funge space
21:01:39 <AnMaster> was using some bad line based code before
21:01:49 <ais523> that looks like both Haskell and Prolog
21:01:56 <AnMaster> ais523, with about 10 times the loc
21:02:02 <AnMaster> ais523, oh what part looks like haskell?
21:02:19 <ais523> in Haskell it would be written the same way just with different syntax
21:02:34 <ais523> likewise Prolog would use the same algorithm again
21:02:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it is tail recursive, and it loads into FungeSpace, which is a special thing called "ets" table, offers destructive storage tables
21:02:57 <AnMaster> and that speed was actually needed
21:03:02 <AnMaster> or mycology took several minutes
21:04:04 <ais523> hmm... maybe an attempt to make a fast Funge interp would have a fixed-size array for the area of the code taken up by the original program and a hash table for other parts of fungespace
21:04:06 <AnMaster> ais523, ets tables are implemented as BIFs (built in functions), are not garbage collected (means I have to remember to call ets:delete() at the end)
21:04:19 <AnMaster> cfunge is still several times faster
21:04:31 <AnMaster> easy to notice when running the life.bf example in cfunge
21:04:42 <Deewiant> ais523: I've been thinking of things like using plain arrays for dense areas
21:04:51 <Deewiant> haven't bothered to implement anything though
21:05:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that should probably help
21:05:47 <AnMaster> ais523, also what part looks like Prolog?
21:05:55 <tusho> AnMaster: erlang's syntax is a carbon-copy of prolog
21:05:58 <tusho> it is practically identiacl
21:06:03 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm talking about the algorithm
21:06:07 <AnMaster> tusho, well the binary match syntax too?
21:06:13 <ais523> but the syntax is also similar, despite the paradigm being different
21:06:20 <tusho> but that's one section of two lines
21:06:25 <tusho> the rest of it looks like prolog
21:06:29 <ais523> and Prolog uses [ | ] rather than << / >>
21:06:33 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes erlang did take a lot of syntax from prolog
21:06:35 <ais523> but other than that it's the same syntax
21:06:38 <tusho> << / >> is not [ | ]
21:06:46 <tusho> << >> is some weird binary thing
21:06:47 <ais523> ah, in Prolog it would be a list
21:07:01 <AnMaster> <<>> is indeed a binary like tusho said
21:07:15 <AnMaster> anyway what about erlang's use of ,;.
21:07:20 <AnMaster> it is in fact slightly annoying
21:07:31 <AnMaster> it use ,;. instead of {} blocks
21:07:33 <tusho> since prolog doesn't really have structures like that
21:07:39 <tusho> also, {} blocks suck
21:07:42 <ais523> in Prolog, , is and and ; is or
21:07:48 <AnMaster> for example , between statements, ; at the end of a block and . at the end of the final function block
21:07:50 <ais523> and . is the end of a predicate
21:08:04 <AnMaster> so when you move stuff around you need to change line ending
21:08:10 <ais523> , is necessary AFAIK, ; isn't as you can simulate it with other things and in fact people normally don't use it
21:08:15 <AnMaster> well at least I don't need to change indention like in python
21:08:26 <tusho> AnMaster: change identation?
21:08:31 <tusho> Wow, your editor sucks.
21:08:39 <tusho> I just rearrange and voila.
21:08:40 <ais523> Deewiant: because you can write the condition twice instead, that's often clearer
21:09:13 <ais523> for instance p(A,B) :- q(A) ; r(B). can also be written p(A,B) :- q(A). p(A,B) :- r(B).
21:09:25 <Deewiant> oh, cool, I didn't know that worked
21:09:27 <AnMaster> tusho, your editor auto indents?
21:09:31 <ais523> that's one of the few contexts where doing it with the ; is shorter and neater, normally writing twice works better though
21:09:34 <tusho> AnMaster: Uh...yes?
21:09:48 <AnMaster> well mine does too for erlang or such
21:10:04 <tusho> AnMaster: python-mode handles rearranging and copypasting and everything
21:10:11 <tusho> its just not an issue
21:10:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does even the word "indentation" make any sense in befunge context?
21:10:21 <ais523> Deewiant: do you use Prolog much? Writing multiple conditions is really common
21:10:52 <Deewiant> ais523: I have a Prolog course at school right now so no, I don't use it much, but I better learn it soon ;-)
21:10:57 <ais523> for instance p(A,B) :- A = 1 ; A = 2, q(B) is better written p(1,_). p(2,B) :- q(B).
21:11:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, of course not. :-P
21:11:32 <ais523> you get used to that sort of thing after a while; probably very quickly as I hardly know Prolog but I know tricks like taht
21:11:53 <Deewiant> ais523: the case I was thinking of was p(A,B) :- q(A,B) ; q(B,A).
21:12:11 <ais523> Deewiant: that could be written out twice, semicolon's probably neater there
21:12:17 <ais523> reasonably unusual to see something like that
21:12:22 <ais523> did you use q for anything else?
21:12:35 <ais523> if not, q(A,B) :- q(B,A) at the end of the definition of q might have been neater
21:12:53 <ais523> presumably the teacher doesn't let you modify their predicates, though...
21:12:58 <Deewiant> is it possible to define predicates out of order?
21:13:10 <ais523> Deewiant: depends on the implementation, I think
21:13:18 <ais523> but one of the ones I used didn't conform to the standard
21:13:26 <Deewiant> in any case I think it could be done
21:13:29 <ais523> in-order is neater anyway, and asserts are allowed out of order
21:13:49 <ais523> wait, q(A,B) :- q(B,A) doesn't work
21:13:52 <ais523> that's an infinite loop
21:14:07 <ais523> logically correct but not programatically correct
21:14:17 <ais523> stupid logic being so idealistic
21:14:36 <ais523> it's so easy to write an infinite loop in Prolog because you write something that's mathematically correct but can't be implemented...
21:14:37 <tusho> ais523: Stupid programming being so pragmatic.
21:14:51 <ais523> tusho: yes, q(A,B) :- q(B,A) works just fine in Proud
21:15:18 <ais523> which is idealistic not pragmatic
21:15:23 <Deewiant> ais523: yeah, I know, I think I need to understand the evaluation model a bit better as I'm finding it a bit hard to reason about predicates
21:15:25 <ais523> on the other hand Proud doesn't work just fine on modern computers
21:15:38 <ais523> AnMaster: basically Prolog minus all its restrictions
21:15:49 <AnMaster> oh? and why doesn't it work on modern computers?
21:15:50 <ais523> an esolang I invented and never specced, nor really worked out the syntax for
21:15:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's superTuring
21:16:11 <AnMaster> ais523, solves the halting problem?
21:16:25 <ais523> AnMaster: well, it can compare functions
21:16:47 <AnMaster> ais523, so could I, give me the program code or byte code for two functions
21:16:53 <AnMaster> and I shall be able to compare them
21:17:12 <AnMaster> if the byte code match, the functions logically match too
21:17:26 <tusho> AnMaster: if you can compare any two single functions
21:17:32 <tusho> and tell us if they do the same thing or not
21:17:34 <ais523> AnMaster: no, functions can do the same thing despite having different code
21:17:36 <tusho> (compute the same thing for the same arguments)
21:17:40 <ais523> for instance, x*2 is the same as x+x for integer x
21:17:45 <tusho> then you are the most amazing human ever found on this planet
21:17:57 <tusho> because you can calculate, er, anything
21:19:01 <ais523> tusho: AnMaster's found a sufficient but unnecessary condition
21:19:10 <ais523> two functions having identical bytecode are the same, generally speaking
21:19:20 <ais523> but two functions can be the same even with different code
21:19:35 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: no, functions can do the same thing despite having different code <-- of course
21:19:45 <AnMaster> then the question wasn't clear enough
21:19:54 <ais523> AnMaster: for instance, imagine comparing a function which prints 1 if there's a solution to the Riemann hypothesis with a function which always prints 1
21:20:18 <AnMaster> also for "<ais523> for instance, x*2 is the same as x+x for integer x" <-- strong typing functional language, and a good optimiser, then byte code will be same
21:20:35 <ais523> AnMaster: well, yes, but that was a trivial example
21:20:41 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed I couldn't solve that
21:21:24 <ais523> AnMaster: nobody can, it's a super-Turing problem
21:21:36 <AnMaster> ais523, however if you write the first function then I shall gladly try
21:21:41 <ais523> it's possible to write a Proud program to solve that problem, though, thus Proud is super-Turing
21:21:54 <ais523> by the way, this explains the existence of some of Prolog's restrictions...
21:22:11 <AnMaster> anyway you can solve it in some cases, you can say that two functions are "definitely the same" or "maybe different"
21:22:25 <ais523> yes, but that isn't super-Turing
21:22:39 <ais523> you could compare it to an interpreter that ran Proud programs sometimes, if they weren't too difficult
21:22:42 <AnMaster> ais523, but the original question wasn't clear enough then
21:22:43 <ais523> that would be pretty eso in itself
21:25:36 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes gcc-bf and Feather?
21:25:43 <ais523> AnMaster: not much progress atm
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21:26:01 <ais523> I'm busy finding displacement activities to avoid having to work out how to divide 64-bit numbers in 8-bit brainfuck
21:26:13 <ais523> if someone would just paste an algorithm, that would be great...
21:26:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well do all the other parts work?
21:26:27 <ais523> AnMaster: most of them, there are a few other parts roughly as difficult as that
21:26:31 <ais523> also the other parts aren't tested
21:26:38 <AnMaster> ais523, well what other parts?
21:26:46 <ais523> there are a few other relatively easy things to do like comparisons
21:27:03 <AnMaster> and 32-bit cfunge should work fine
21:27:08 <AnMaster> assuming you have double data type
21:29:00 <AnMaster> ais523, also it can't be that hard
21:29:20 <AnMaster> ais523, just extend the algorithm for working on 16 bit divide, then the one for 32-bit
21:29:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I have code for that, it's insanely slow even to think about
21:29:46 <ais523> I compiled the asm for it to see what would happen
21:29:50 <Deewiant> and brainfuck in general isn't? :-P
21:29:53 <ais523> also I think it calls itself recursively in an infinite loop
21:30:06 <ais523> AnMaster: probably a few thousand taking into account all the recursive calls
21:30:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is that reference?
21:30:43 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge got some recursive calls in it hm
21:31:07 <AnMaster> body recursive in at least one case
21:31:11 <Deewiant> dragonball z, english dub of the anime, a guy looks at something that tells him the power level of his enemy, yells "over 9000" in disgust and crushes the device
21:31:25 <Deewiant> probably easy to find on youtube
21:31:51 <Deewiant> english dub of the anime, like I said
21:31:57 <Deewiant> which word do you not understand :-P
21:31:59 <AnMaster> I mean you don't have power levels outside games
21:32:15 <AnMaster> no you don't, not measurable ones
21:32:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not in real life anyway
21:32:34 <Deewiant> later on their power levels are so high though that the devices just break
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21:33:30 <AnMaster> no way you could say it same second otherwise
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21:33:45 <ais523> AnMaster: it's definitely a script, tusho was asking me to cycle to help em debug
21:34:06 <ais523> not only that but it says it in several different channels...
21:34:57 <tusho> ais523 was going to script it
21:35:04 <tusho> he only gave up because he thought it not worth the effort
21:35:07 <tusho> therefore, it is fair game
21:35:24 <ais523> tusho: "not worth the effort", exactly
21:35:32 <tusho> ais523: but i've already done the effor
21:35:32 <ais523> I decided the gain from it would be small and possibly negative
21:35:36 <tusho> it's no effort for me, so.
21:35:45 <tusho> we stopped really playing the game a while ago
21:35:51 <tusho> p.s. you just lost the game
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21:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Maybe I'll try finding the phone number of "Greg Richards" instead..
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22:20:16 <AnMaster> http://www.erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2003-May/008886.html
22:20:38 <tusho> look at catseye.tc sometime would you
22:20:40 <tusho> he has tons of erlang stuff
22:20:55 <AnMaster> tusho, ah I looked at his befunge pages mostly
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22:42:40 <tusho> Connecting to Tor is slow.
22:43:08 * ais523 says c-b-l to confuse the #esoteric denizens the same way it confuses the ##nomic denizens
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23:17:46 <oerjan> * ais523 says c-b-l to confuse the #esoteric denizens the same way it confuses the ##nomic denizens
23:18:00 <oerjan> Lies! There is _no_ c-b-l
23:18:29 <ais523> oerjan: actually I was in #c-b-l a while ago, it was empty though
23:18:51 <oerjan> a one person c-b-l is no c-b-l
23:19:25 <oerjan> unless you are a schizophrenic solipsist, perhaps
23:20:08 <oerjan> s/schizophrenic/multiple personality/
23:20:41 <oerjan> hm would a solipsist have to believe he has multiple personality disorder, i wonder
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01:28:01 <oerjan> Oh great prophet, will I get any cake today?
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03:09:47 <CO2Games> # declares a macro, % inserts it
03:10:34 <moozilla> you should only be able to define functions and macros to symbols
03:10:43 <moozilla> or else it isnt esoteric enough :P
03:10:48 <CO2Games> ! declares a function, * calls it
03:11:19 <moozilla> or i guess you could just compile into brainfuck
03:14:06 <CO2Games> it turns into !i32{++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++}
03:15:50 <CakeProphet> you could really just combine function and macro
03:15:58 <CakeProphet> if all a function does is textually inserts its parameters
03:17:30 <CO2Games> Macro is just for cleaning up code
03:17:52 <CO2Games> functions actually CALL and RET
03:21:31 <oerjan> the question is whether a macro can do anything a function cannot
03:21:57 <oerjan> (functions could recurse, i hope)
03:31:47 <CO2Games> If assembly can recurse functions, so can this
03:33:29 <CO2Games> Unfortunately functions don't get their own tape.
03:34:09 <oerjan> so then any macro could be assembled as if it was a function instead, and the behavior of the program would still be the same
03:34:36 <CO2Games> Wait, functions can't recurse?
03:35:14 <oerjan> it cannot. but it cannot do anything a function cannot, either
03:35:48 <CO2Games> macros are essentially #defines in c++
03:36:06 <CO2Games> Except they don't take parameters
03:37:01 <CO2Games> Although they can pop from the stack, and push back onto it.
03:37:04 <oerjan> you could let them take parameters, that would be a difference. easier to implement than for functions, too
03:37:52 <CO2Games> I could give functions their own tape to work with.
03:38:26 <CO2Games> Implementing parameters on macros sounds interesting
03:39:19 <CO2Games> Although I'm not sure how they would work
03:40:52 <CO2Games> I mean macros are exactly the same except they are inline instead of seperate code.
03:42:11 <CO2Games> Here's an interesting ordeal...
03:42:56 <CO2Games> ...how would parameters be passed to the macro?
03:43:09 <CO2Games> Obviously not through the stack like functions.
03:43:26 <oerjan> they would be expanded inline of course
03:43:48 <oerjan> like C's #define is one way
03:44:10 <CO2Games> There isn't a parameter list for brainstack macros though
03:44:39 <oerjan> so it would require some added syntax
03:45:13 <CO2Games> ok, so how would these parameters be accessed?
03:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ...if I'm not identified..
03:46:05 <oerjan> C's #define does it by name, you might access them as if they were macros themselves. or you could do it by argument position.
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03:47:49 <CO2Games> oh, so something like %macroname|9|+% for the call?
03:48:37 <oerjan> yeah that would be the wiki style wouldn't it
03:54:53 <CO2Games> and then maybe something like #macroname{@looper$u:@@MOV ECX,$0@+@loopc looper@}
03:55:32 <CO2Games> $u for a unique id, incrementing every time the macro is used
03:55:42 <CO2Games> So we don't get label conflicts
03:56:11 <CO2Games> #macroname{@looper$u:@@MOV ECX,$0@$1@loopc looper@}
03:56:51 <oerjan> shouldn't there be a $u at the end too
03:57:01 <CO2Games> so %macroname|9|+% increments the ...oh right
03:57:09 <CO2Games> #macroname{@looper$u:@@MOV ECX,$0@$1@loopc looper$u@}
03:57:20 <CO2Games> so %macroname|9|+% increments the cell 9 times
03:57:53 <CO2Games> %macroname|57|V% pops the stack 57 times
04:00:51 <CO2Games> case '@':fputs(gets_until('@'),asmout);break;
04:02:27 <CO2Games> I wrote a function that uses getchar and keeps doing that until it gets the given character
04:02:53 <CO2Games> And then dumps it out as a string
04:03:22 <oerjan> but where are you putting it? gets is just begging for buffer overrun
04:04:22 <oerjan> how is the string allocated, i mean
04:05:20 <CO2Games> blah blah string std vector blah buffer overflow blah segfault win32 blah blah access violation, I GET IT.
04:05:39 <CO2Games> I chose char arrays, and I stuck to it
04:06:10 <CO2Games> But hey, I'm using vectors for the macros, and strings for the macro contents
04:10:16 * oerjan does a little segfault da
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05:10:13 <GregorR> calamari: What's your involvement with Qemu?
05:11:16 -!- megatron has joined.
05:11:32 <GregorR> calamari: Oh yeah ... blah blah blah pleasantries etc :P
05:12:05 <calamari> GregorR: I use it.. and they needed someone to host the FAQ.. so I made it into a wiki, and it went from there
05:12:22 <calamari> I haven't contributed much content.. mostly grammar and link fixing
05:12:25 <GregorR> Okidoke. Just had seen the URL and was wondering :P
05:13:13 <calamari> although I had to use non-free virtualbox to communicate with my timex data link watch :( qemu usb kept giving data errors
05:14:03 <GregorR> I'm using an array of Qemus to build things across multiple platforms automatically ^^
05:14:18 <calamari> it installed windows 98 at least 3 times as quickly as vbox
05:15:28 <calamari> plus whatever I can reclaim from my 900 bytes of program code
05:16:35 <calamari> well, bf interpreters aren't terribly large
05:16:46 <calamari> so I'm hoping to get at least another 500 bytes
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05:16:54 <GregorR> Is the SDK actually provided by Timex, or is it a user hack?
05:17:14 <GregorR> My watch is nonprogrammable :(
05:17:29 <calamari> and they even coded a build system.. windows only, but I guess the watch was codeveloped my microsoft so I can't blame them
05:17:56 <calamari> I guess the earlier ones even had microsoft printed on the face
05:18:14 <calamari> maybe that's why I didn't look into it.. hmm
05:27:16 <GregorR> My watch is ultrapowerful, but still no SDK *sigh*
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05:28:07 <GregorR> http://www.chinavasion.com/product_info.php/pName/super-cool-mobile-phone-wrist-watch/
05:29:20 <GregorR> I consider it to have been an excellent buy.
05:29:30 <calamari> neat.. whats the typical battery life like?
05:31:11 <GregorR> One day with moderate phone use, two days on average.
05:31:30 <GregorR> It comes with two batteries, which is nice since you can just swap them out whenever and never have the phone off for long.
05:34:29 <calamari> well it might be possible.. does it allow firmware upgrades?
05:40:27 <bsmntbombdood> i need a hash function that incorporates something like levenshtein distance
05:40:40 <bsmntbombdood> strings with a levenshtein distance of less than n hash the same
05:50:06 <bsmntbombdood> OOOOOH, generate the set of strings, sort it and hash the concatenation
05:51:31 <oerjan> um this sounds like everything must hash the same, by transitivity
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06:33:47 <CO2Games> oerjan: Ok I think everything's working now
06:33:53 <CO2Games> But I need to test the converter
06:44:18 <oerjan> depends what "this" is
06:45:00 <bsmntbombdood> i need to find the fuzzy-union of two sets in O(n)
06:46:58 <oerjan> i don't know what that is
06:50:06 <oerjan> right, there was something intuitively trivial about that union
06:53:38 <CO2Games> I can't figure out a way to get nested loops working
06:55:26 <Deewiant> O(m+n) then for two sets, or what?
06:58:48 <bsmntbombdood> unfuzzy intersection is easy, you just use a hash table
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11:52:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I know this is picking at irrelevant details but...
11:52:11 <AnMaster> GOOD: 1y and 5y do not disagree about =
11:52:11 <AnMaster> No reliable cross-platform method of testing: assume = works
11:52:24 <AnMaster> well you could test it in this case, check that it reflects :P
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11:52:33 <AnMaster> since y indicates it is not implemented
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17:54:56 <Deewiant> heh, Mike is working hard getting Rc/Funge-98 to behave on MycoTRDS the same way CCBI does :-)
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18:23:30 <GregorR> I guess I don't get a "hey." *sobs uncontrollably*
18:24:59 <tusho> ae5ir: who are you
18:25:12 <ae5ir> I am the terror that flaps in the night
18:25:34 <ae5ir> used to come in here maybe a couple years ago
18:25:38 <Deewiant> no? you totally had me going there
18:27:27 <GregorR> No way that was on the order of years.
18:30:28 <ae5ir> 10/10/05 was when I registered the nick
18:31:53 <ae5ir> and iirc this channel was the reason I first came to this network
18:35:02 <ae5ir> better than an enema
18:35:06 <GregorR> I am an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in questions wrapped in a warm flour tortilla served with chips and guacamole for only $4.95 for a limited time only.
18:36:43 <GregorR> (I'm not in OR, but my point stands)
18:37:17 <ae5ir> true? yes. relevant? perhaps not.
18:50:33 <oerjan> i'll have that and a medium coke, thank you
18:51:04 <tusho> oerjan: which kind of coke?
18:52:13 <oerjan> it's either that or infinity
18:53:01 <tusho> oerjan: that is not quite what i was referring to
18:56:26 <oerjan> also, i am sure i've seen robdgreat earlier this year. i kept confusing him with robert.
18:56:39 <oerjan> who isn't here much either?
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19:01:09 <ae5ir> yeah I've been in here since back when, just not very frequently
19:05:49 <tusho> I am confusing robdgreat with RodgerTheGreat
19:05:52 <tusho> rodgort: Ok, who are YOU?
19:06:06 <tusho> SirDayBat: Or you!
19:06:35 <oerjan> SirDayBat smells finnish
19:06:57 <ae5ir> heh yeah I came back after a long absence and he accused me of stealing his nick -_-
19:07:36 <tusho> ae5ir: rodgerthegreat is an asshole, so i'm not surprised
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20:36:07 <fizzie> Here's what graphviz thinks of fungot's fingerprint-loading parts: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/bg.png
20:36:07 <fungot> fizzie: thanks for your help
20:36:26 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not sure that graph will help you any, but sure, no problem.
20:36:26 <fungot> fizzie: hold on a second
20:38:35 <Deewiant> fizzie: did you do that yourself or generate it somehow
20:39:28 <Deewiant> I guess there's some generation involved in any case, but you know what I meant
20:41:24 <fizzie> Wrote a bit of Java (since oklopol was talking about it the other day) to do a tiny amount of static Funge source code analysis.
20:42:28 <Deewiant> neat - what can it do? checks for # _ or something or is it more clever?
20:42:56 <fizzie> Basically there's a "collect cells to a graph" function which, when coming across things like _| or "# followed by something that might reflect" calls itself recursively to handle the two branches, and then some more code to combine "uninteresting" (single in-edge, single out-edge type) vertices to longer strings.
20:43:49 <fizzie> Currently there's branching only for _| and the #-reflect case, but I guess I'll need to add some sort of heuristic for the "j" jump tables, as well as '?', if I intend to be able to pass whole fungot through it.
20:43:49 <fungot> fizzie: it's n being shifted by k. dick fellow writes crap. at least i can
20:44:30 <fizzie> Currently it gets confused somewhere in fungot sources. Must fix later. Should go to sleep early today, so maybe tomorrow.
20:44:30 <fungot> fizzie: don't worry about that stuff.
20:44:43 <fizzie> fungot: You're being surprisingly coherent today.
20:54:06 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Wrote a bit of Java (since oklopol was talking about it the other day) to do a tiny amount of static Funge source code analysis. <-- wow?
20:54:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, where can you see the source?
20:55:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, also you need to handle x and w, + some other
20:56:00 <AnMaster> of course when the program is self modifying it will be harder
20:56:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes at least unless you can see no code cell get overwritten
20:56:45 <Deewiant> and you can't see that, it's impossible.
20:56:51 <AnMaster> you could tell the analyser "all stores in negative funge space are for data"
20:57:06 <tusho> Deewiant: not impossible
20:57:12 <AnMaster> and make the actual source code non-modifying
20:57:55 <AnMaster> I agree there will always be cases it *can't* handle of course
20:58:06 <AnMaster> but you can make it more or less good
20:58:11 <tusho> really want a goddamn oracle machine
20:58:14 <tusho> wanna write stuff with language.c
20:58:19 <tusho> graph of control flow in c
20:58:26 <tusho> have functions be bubbles, and flowcharts inside
20:58:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how come a human can work out the flow of such a program then?
20:58:33 <tusho> with little arrows pointing to other bubbles and back again
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20:58:38 <AnMaster> or do we just execute them in our head?
20:58:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: a human can't do it either.
20:58:42 <tusho> AnMaster: no, we just have reasoning skills
20:58:45 <tusho> they are not perfect
20:58:50 <tusho> we cannot do it for all cases
20:58:59 <tusho> and most likely our reasoning could be simulated by a computer
20:59:00 <Deewiant> and most likely humans do execute them in their heads.
20:59:01 <tusho> we just don't know how
20:59:09 <tusho> we execute in our heads in a limited form
20:59:23 <AnMaster> yes, follow the code flow to see what happens
20:59:57 <AnMaster> what about "formally verified" programs. Obviously someone must have reasoned a lot about those?
21:00:17 <AnMaster> no clue how you actually "formally verify" a program
21:00:23 <oklopimp> i wonder if on any other media there's been as much leasurely chatter about turing completeness as in here
21:00:47 <tusho> AnMaster: they are just theorem proving systems
21:00:51 <tusho> the theorems could be written badly
21:00:58 <Deewiant> or you can prove something yourself
21:01:05 <tusho> Deewiant: that's even more flawfilled though
21:01:16 <fizzie> Yes, I'm just trying to make it good enough to handle fungot, not any sort of funge-98 program. I don't think I'll even do 'x' (even though in many cases a simple constant-folding-type of thing would work) since I don't use it.
21:01:35 <tusho> those c graphs would be win
21:02:21 <oklopimp> AnMaster: formally verifying is proving things work as they're supposed to
21:02:32 <oklopimp> proving is a vast subject with tons of techniques
21:02:45 <oklopimp> some of which you most likely are aware of
21:03:04 <oklopimp> that's one of the techniques he doesn't understand
21:03:37 <tusho> agreed with oklopimp on the not understanding
21:04:42 <oklopimp> Deewiant: induction isn't really something many people use in their thinking unless been taught to
21:05:15 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> induction, for instance <-- certainly, I used it in math in school
21:05:22 <oklopimp> (i invented it for a math test once, but well i'm a pimp that's just how i roll)
21:05:38 <AnMaster> at least if it is what I think it is in Swedish
21:06:17 <tusho> some people do not understand induction
21:06:23 <tusho> therefore AnMaster does not understand induction
21:06:59 <AnMaster> like, f(n) = .... for any integer n always returns (n-1)/n, then you prove that it is true for n = 1, and then that if it is true for n = 1, then it have to be true for any integer n
21:07:32 <oklopimp> more like if it's true for all integers up to a certain number, it will be true for that number + 1
21:07:54 <AnMaster> oklopimp, right, what I meant. Except I'm just home from Aikido, so kind of sleepy
21:08:12 <oklopimp> yeah, i'm sure you get it, i just found your explanation confusing
21:08:28 <oklopimp> aaaaanyway, induction is one of the ways you can verify algos
21:08:35 <AnMaster> oklopimp, probably since I'm almost sleeping on the keyboard
21:08:57 <oklopimp> have fun, i just slept like 4 hours
21:09:18 <AnMaster> oklopimp, well did you just came home from a two hour session of Aikido?
21:09:35 <oklopimp> no, i just woke up from a 4 hour sleep
21:10:10 <oklopimp> (actually i guess you don't kick much ass in aikido)
21:10:23 <oklopimp> i quit because i was a kid and i got bored with things
21:10:36 <AnMaster> I suspected you meant it metaphorically(sp?)
21:10:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you explain why Finnish ppl seem to use "->" for "afk"?
21:11:19 <tusho> AnMaster: stop ripping me
21:11:20 <tusho> i asked that first
21:11:27 <AnMaster> tusho, did you get any answer?
21:11:33 <tusho> i think its just the culture, from what i gather
21:11:38 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes I know you asked too
21:11:39 <tusho> irc started in finland, right?
21:11:48 <tusho> so it just kind of grew, someone used it, it continued, but then we imported our chatspeak
21:11:53 <tusho> and ... the divide just kinda grew
21:12:00 <tusho> so finnish irc channels use it
21:12:01 <AnMaster> anyway then I'm going to start using "<=" at the beginning of lines or something
21:12:02 <tusho> but english ones don't
21:12:08 <tusho> so when finns are on english ones
21:12:10 <tusho> they use what's natural to them
21:15:14 <fizzie> Hey, the funge-graphery actually helped me notice a bug: there in ^save if 'O' fails, the code will go nowhere.
21:16:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok, pastebin the code please
21:16:35 <AnMaster> does it have some nice GUI btw?
21:17:34 <fizzie> There's a lot of files, and no GUI, and I won't be sharing the code just yet, still playing with it a bit.
21:17:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, aww, would like to see it
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21:19:00 <fizzie> Are you sure? It's Java, of all things.
21:19:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I got a jdk 1.6 around
21:19:37 <AnMaster> no I don't like coding java, but I accept using it
21:19:55 <AnMaster> it is not my primary choice no, but if that app is good it is ok
21:20:21 <AnMaster> (basically I need it to run a level editor on a game where I develop on the server code, which is in C)
21:21:13 <fizzie> Okay, I've got a 4920x15464-pixel image of fungot sources made with that thing; it might be the buggy. http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungot.png
21:21:41 <AnMaster> warning do not open in firefox
21:21:58 <fizzie> I just opened it in firefox.
21:22:36 <AnMaster> ah still 2.x due to stable in distro
21:23:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are a lot of empty bubbles?
21:23:27 <fizzie> Yes, I think it's because the node-combinatator removes <>^v from those nodes, but isn't intelligent enough to remove empty nodes.
21:23:28 <AnMaster> also I would like to try it on some smaller program
21:24:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/life.bf
21:24:28 <AnMaster> no clue if it is too self modifying
21:24:49 <AnMaster> since I *can't* reason about that program
21:25:37 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/life.png says dot.
21:26:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is the *start* node
21:26:35 <fizzie> It's the one with a incoming "->" from nowhere.
21:26:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that doesn't make it a lot clearer
21:27:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the program in http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/418?file_id=count.b98-20080502072851-9xxna708q7kcdybc-1
21:27:14 <fizzie> Must remove those empty nodes, it'll be better then. And neato would produce nicer graphs except that it needs some serious adjustments to make nodes not overlap.
21:28:37 <AnMaster> however it is golfed for space
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21:29:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah it fails at program wrapping around edge
21:29:43 <AnMaster> which that one does for space reasons
21:30:40 <fizzie> Doesn't that ".:" go to the correct 1+... node?
21:30:49 <fizzie> count2.png is how neato layouts it.
21:31:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean upside down compared to program
21:31:12 <AnMaster> I find count.png easier to read
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21:32:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I think I can understand count.png since I wrote the original program
21:32:22 <fizzie> dot does hierarchic graphs better, since it gives a "rank" for each node.
21:32:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean count.png? yeah count.png is better
21:33:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, try antialias, it would help a lot
21:34:18 <fizzie> If you insist on looking at the sources, they're at http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/bg.tar.gz -- builds with ant, uses Runtime.exec to invoke Graphviz. And is very very incomplete and work-in-progress.
21:34:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't insist at looking at source, but I insisted at running it
21:35:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do I run it? there is no jar file?
21:36:32 <fizzie> Haven't bothered to add a "dist" target to the build.xml.
21:36:48 <fizzie> Just do "java -cp build befgraph.BefGraph program.b98 output.png" in the top dir.
21:37:11 <fizzie> It is, after all, not a distribution yet.
21:37:40 <AnMaster> I just found a bug in cfunge...
21:37:58 <AnMaster> it ignored - for integer input...
21:39:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are implementations supposed to ignore - in &?
21:39:08 <AnMaster> UNDEF: got 4 which is hopefully correct.
21:39:29 <AnMaster> UNDEF: got -4 which is hopefully correct.
21:39:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is right I wonder?
21:40:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, lets see what happens on mycology
21:40:38 <AnMaster> mycology.png: PNG image data, 1859 x 1832, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
21:40:48 <fizzie> That's surprisingly small.
21:41:10 <fizzie> Uh, I think I left "neato" there as the layout engine.
21:41:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, where would I change it?
21:41:22 <fizzie> You can change it in BefGraph.java, just s/neato/dot/
21:42:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems to be antialiased at least
21:42:02 <fizzie> - is a digit, so I guess "4" is more right: & specs say "reads and discards characters until it encounters decimal digit characters".
21:42:50 <fizzie> I think the graphviz version at the SuSE box I was running it on might be a bit old and not support any antialiasationary stuff. Not sure.
21:42:53 <AnMaster> mycology.png: PNG image data, 1856 x 5019, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
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21:43:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, my dot seems to do antialiasing
21:44:01 <AnMaster> looks way nicer than the output you got
21:45:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vcjZl
21:46:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, somehow I don't think that graph is complete
21:48:42 <fizzie> The dot I have at work is very very old, but since I started that program there, I've been running it there too.
21:48:58 <fizzie> And it might easily get confused by unexpected code flow.
21:49:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, better check where it gets confused
21:49:16 <AnMaster> I want to see everything up to y :D
21:49:53 <AnMaster> oh wait it hits the "p does not modify space" I think
21:50:31 <fizzie> Yes, self-modification is no good.
21:50:46 <fizzie> Also it doesn't do x and ; yet; at least ';' is used in mycology. Although ; is easy.
21:51:29 <AnMaster> also the p check is way earlier
21:51:34 <fizzie> Those neither. Hey, fungot graph must be also semi-broken because of that.
21:51:42 <fizzie> There's at least one ] in there.
21:51:51 <fizzie> Nope. Don't use 'w' in fungot. :p
21:52:17 <fizzie> Sure, I just have my Befunge-93 roots.
21:52:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you use [] then...?
21:56:37 <fizzie> That was just because I had to rearrange some code and got a >< pair that would've needed to overlap that was solvable with a single ].
22:00:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, err I mean those two instructions
22:00:58 <fizzie> Yes, I had a "coming from up, do <; coming from down, do >" case which I did with a ]; I think that's the only place where fungot uses either [ or ]. Although there might be a second place somewhere.
22:01:50 <fizzie> I rather like the generated fungot.png scaled to 25% of the size. It sort-of looks very enterprisey. Now if I could just fix the empty-node-removal. I thought I got it right, but now it got confused because an empty node had two outgoing edges, which shouldn't really be possible.
22:02:43 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/xVQ6FN79.html <-- hm nice format
22:04:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I'd like to see the static analysis as complete as possible
22:06:24 <fizzie> I'll do some improvements, but I doubt I'll care enough to start analyzing the state of the stack, for example. I did do that once for a Befunge-93 compiler which did constant-folding, though.
22:07:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, except well that would not work for self modifying programs
22:07:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, but I'd like to see the code
22:07:30 <AnMaster> I think you could JIT it though
22:08:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure where I have the code.
22:09:09 <fizzie> It was also written in Java, and it was supposed to target the Java VM so that it could recompile stuff when self-modification occurs. Got bored midway through and only did a proof-of-concept code-generation backend that generated C code.
22:11:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, also most funge programs tend to use self modification to store variables at least
22:12:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, in fact I planned to rewrite that count program to use self modification and a '
22:12:58 <fizzie> That's curious, I enabled the empty-node filtering and fungot.png grew in size.
22:14:17 <fizzie> I guess it's because I also added [ and ] instructions.
22:15:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, where can I check out last version?
22:15:51 <AnMaster> I got bzr, hg, darcs, svn, cvs, git and monotone installed
22:16:02 <tusho> i still wanna make that c control flow graph it would pwnz0r
22:16:24 <AnMaster> tusho, would certainly be interesting, but aren't there already such things?
22:16:43 <AnMaster> tusho, go code it, maybe after botte?
22:17:18 <tusho> i don't actually give a shit about botte right now since nobody is actually in a situation requiring it
22:17:22 <tusho> i might code it if i can be bothered, that would be something
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22:23:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess you can do a "git clone http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/git/befgraph" but don't expect updates very often.
22:23:14 <fizzie> I guess I'll sleep now.
22:23:22 <tusho> warning: AnMaster hates git
22:23:36 <fizzie> Well, git was listed there in the list of acceptable methods.
22:25:08 <AnMaster> tusho, I accept using git if I *have* to
22:25:24 * tusho points a gun at AnMaster's head
22:25:28 <tusho> Use git for all your projects.
22:25:50 <tusho> I guess death doesn't fall under the umbrella of have to.
22:27:49 <AnMaster> Never use git again, use mercurial or bzr!
22:28:13 <tusho> AnMaster: No, because you didn't really point a gun at my head.
22:28:20 <tusho> But I was acting in the context of the fictional gun-pointing
22:28:24 <tusho> as IRC is a virtual environment
22:28:29 <tusho> If you pointed the gun at my head in real life, yes, of course I would.
22:28:33 <oerjan> that's what you _think_
22:28:38 <AnMaster> tusho, well I was breaking the fifth wall before ;P
22:28:40 <tusho> oerjan: dun dun dun
22:28:44 <tusho> AnMaster: Fourth wall.
22:29:23 <AnMaster> tusho, a channel like #esoteric got a non-trivial space time geometry ;P
22:29:27 * oerjan is starting to wonder if the room is 3d at all
22:29:31 <AnMaster> (warning: probably technobable)
22:29:39 <tusho> i don't think #esoteric obeys any kind of geometry
22:29:42 <tusho> it's all sort of wishy-washy
22:29:59 <oklopimp> there are things i wouldn't do even with a gun pointed at my head
22:30:05 -!- oklopimp has changed nick to oklopol.
22:30:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, s/you _think_/she said/
22:30:08 <oerjan> it's a Hausdorff compactum. we are still unclear on whether it is metrizable.
22:31:03 <oerjan> s/compactum/compact space/
22:31:22 <AnMaster> ah well I can kind of guess now what thing it may be
22:31:25 <oerjan> i forgot the slight difference
22:31:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, aspell doesn't like metrizable, please explain it
22:32:26 <oerjan> a topological space is metrizable if its topology can be got from some possible distance metric
22:33:02 <oerjan> (metric = distance function, essentially)
22:33:19 <AnMaster> ah well that clarified one, no two, things at least: 1) we were talking about topology as I thought 2) You know way more than I do about it
22:33:29 <AnMaster> oh and 3) I didn't get what you just said :P
22:34:05 <oklopol> i'm not entirely sure what he's saying either
22:34:31 <oklopol> but i'm hoping ihope is the only other guy here who understood that
22:34:59 <tusho> <oklopimp> there are things i wouldn't do even with a gun pointed at my head
22:35:01 <oerjan> well it was just an attempt at technobabble. the fact that the terms actually exist should not detract from that point.
22:35:52 <tusho> oerjan: can I have some technobabble on the subject of oko
22:35:57 <ihope> So, it's a Hausdorff compact space and we don't know whether it's a metric space thingy.
22:36:34 <oerjan> tusho: oko calls more for spiritual babbling, i feel
22:36:42 <ihope> I think I've forgotten what Hausdorffness is. It's a separation axiom, I know.
22:36:48 <tusho> oerjan: do that then
22:37:00 <oerjan> ihope: any two points are in disjoint open sets
22:37:27 <ihope> I don't know if there's any particular Hausdorff compact space whose metrizability is unknown.
22:37:43 <oerjan> tusho: the essence of oko is in a transcendental logosphere of infinite reproduction
22:37:45 <oklopol> tusho: i would never kiss a guy in public, for instance
22:38:11 <tusho> two guys kissing with a gun pointed at one of their heads
22:38:15 <tusho> that would be ... an odd situation
22:38:21 <oklopol> avoiding death does not have an infinite priority for me.
22:38:41 <ihope> Does asiekierka have an email address out there somewhere?
22:38:46 <tusho> oklopol: I imagine it does, instinct-wise.
22:38:55 <oklopol> well okay i guess that's a bad example since i've kissed a guy while drunk once
22:39:06 <oklopol> if there was something i really didn't wanna do, i wouldn't do it
22:39:37 <oklopol> for instance, if someone pointed a gun at me and told me to tell them they're more intelligent than me, i probably wouldn't.
22:39:56 <oerjan> ihope: i'm sure there is something involving extra unprovable ZFC axioms or something.
22:40:55 <ihope> I like adding true-but-unprovable axioms to things.
22:41:10 <oklopol> i like adding your mum to things
22:41:13 <AnMaster> ihope, how do you know they are true then?
22:41:45 <ihope> AnMaster: by the lack of a counterexample.
22:42:11 <oerjan> ihope: his nick at gmail.com popped up on the third google page
22:42:28 <AnMaster> I'm not sure that makes it true, only a relative probability that it is in fact true
22:42:54 <oklopol> nothing can be proved, there can always be a mistake in the proof
22:43:28 <oklopol> but other than that, you seem to have misunderstood everything about math, AnMaster
22:44:01 <AnMaster> if you had to guess (with a gun at your head), would you say that the Riemann hypothesis is 1) false 2) true and provable 2) true but unprovable
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22:44:26 <AnMaster> yes I realize this is the wrong question to ask. But that makes it even more interesting (IMHO)
22:44:40 <oerjan> well (2) is the most interesting
22:44:52 <oklopol> err, i don't know if it's true, because i've forgotten what that is
22:45:01 <CO2Games> Ok, my brainstack compiler now supports macro parameters
22:45:05 <oerjan> your numbering was off
22:45:27 <CO2Games> Unfortunately my current problem involves std i/o
22:45:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: you used 2) twice
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22:46:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: axioms are not "probably true", as in "things that cannot be proved but might be true", they are things we've decided to hold as true, to see what happens should we do so
22:46:36 <oklopol> what's riemann? explain it in an irc message
22:46:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes I know what an axiom is
22:46:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_hypothesis
22:46:55 <oklopol> that's just a link with the word in it
22:47:19 <CO2Games> Prints the alphabet in allcaps
22:47:29 <CO2Games> But I still need to fix . and ,
22:47:33 <AnMaster> CO2Games, you know this is hardly a turing tarpit any more
22:47:36 <CO2Games> And I need to implement [ and ]
22:52:03 <CO2Games> btw AnMaster, it supports inline assembly via the @ command
22:53:58 <CO2Games> Yeah ok maybe he did turn off the screen
22:54:08 <oerjan> CO2Games is a bit confused about the word "gay" i think
22:54:25 <CO2Games> No, he's gay *and* has sex with pigs
22:55:02 <CO2Games> So anyway macro parameters work now
22:55:38 <CO2Games> But I can't run the programs assembled and linked by masm compiled by BFToASM
22:56:38 <CO2Games> shit I just can up with a really bad pun
22:57:32 <oerjan> madness is mandatory here
22:57:38 <CO2Games> heh yeah you got a point there
22:58:26 <oerjan> so is andgasm the dual concept?
22:59:37 <oerjan> of course it was. well, nearly.
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23:09:32 <CO2Games> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD4bn5pp32w&feature=related
23:11:11 <ihope> Too bad that's actually a gasm-or.
23:12:04 <CO2Games> "You know I'm molestin` ox's now."
23:20:16 <oerjan> it must be true. everyone knows people who misuse apostrophes are sexual deviants.
23:25:28 <ihope> That's not a misuse of an apostrophe, it's a misuse as an apostrophe.
23:27:22 <oklopol> because it wasn't actually an apostrophe character?
23:27:43 <oklopol> actually i guess it was about the ox's
23:27:52 <olsner> misuse of accents *brr*
23:27:59 <oklopol> i'm just squintering my way through the world of scent and danger
23:29:23 <oerjan> scent-based UI _sound_ nice, until you get spam
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23:31:07 <ihope> I wouldn't want a scent-based UI unless I were Florence Ambrose...
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05:34:52 <GregorR> I wrote a lambda calculus solver in JavaScript :P
05:35:51 <GregorR> Err, "solver" = terribly irrelevant term X-D
05:36:04 <GregorR> It's a lambda calculus interpreter.
05:39:12 <oerjan> like http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ ?
05:42:44 <pikhq> Wow. Someone *doesn't* like Gregor Richard's 7th Opus. How dare he?
05:42:51 <pikhq> GregorR, come to Missouri and hunt him down.
05:43:14 <GregorR> Someone /does/ like it? X-P
05:43:27 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of your opuses.
05:43:38 <GregorR> oerjan: Although alligator eggs = awesome, this is a bit more ... quick n' simple :P
05:44:10 <GregorR> pikhq: Feel like elaborating?
05:45:08 <oklopol> i haven't heard GregorR's opi
05:45:22 <GregorR> oklopol: http://codu.org/music.php
05:45:37 <oklopol> mind you i'm only saying that so i can use the faulty plural.
05:45:51 <oklopol> but i shall do listen yes today.
05:45:52 <GregorR> But it's such an amusing faulty plural :P
05:46:50 <pikhq> GregorR: They're decent piano pieces.
05:47:17 <oerjan> oklopol: the plural is "opera"
05:47:20 <pikhq> As far as someone not liking them? Guy in my suite *dared* put on something else. How dare he?
05:50:03 <oerjan> wait a minute, you already knew?
05:50:09 <oklopol> but that's substantially less faulty.
05:51:07 <oerjan> i didn't see that line about faulty plurals
05:52:45 <oklopol> i'm not sure whether i would've remembered opera actively
05:52:49 <oerjan> of course it _could_ have been opi
05:54:10 <oerjan> for all i know there's such a homonym in latin
05:54:31 <oerjan> -us, -i is 2. declension
05:54:59 <oerjan> -us, -era is 3. declension
05:55:06 <oklopol> i was just going by nucleus and cactus, and knew opus didn't support that
05:55:43 <oerjan> and the 3rd one might have other options too, it's complicated
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06:08:04 <fizzie> There's no bzr at work, I think both Mercurial and Subversion need support from the server (Subversion at least uses that DAV module), CVS doesn't really do HTTP and I don't really know Monotone, so I think the choice was between darcs and Git.
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06:39:28 <psygnisfive> seriously. i want to talk to you more but i cant since you're only on irc and my school makes it hard to use irc
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07:38:51 <fizzie> Hah, I added them 'j' jump tables, here's fungot's token-to-text part: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/tokenizer.png
07:43:14 <fizzie> @ is the "end program" command, I just added @s to all the "outgoing" code paths from that piece of code.
07:43:27 <fizzie> Also: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/interp.png -- the brainfuck interpreter; it looks even nicer.
07:43:46 <fizzie> Execution starts from that node where there's a "->" from nowhere.
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07:47:39 <oklopol> like, how many weeks elapsed since beginning of current year
07:50:27 <fizzie> For 1-based indexing and mondays as first days, although that latter part doesn't really change much in this case.
07:51:49 <oklopol> how can that be googled? :)
07:52:51 <fizzie> First hit of "current week number" seems to have 38 in it, at least.
07:52:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, everyone should use Monday as first day
07:53:09 <AnMaster> Sunday as first doesn't make sense
07:53:25 <fizzie> On a suitable operating system, "ncal -w" will also tell you the week number.
07:53:52 <fizzie> And "date +%V" more portably.
07:54:30 <fizzie> ncal is not everywhere; it's not on this SuSE box, but it is on the Ubuntu box over there, in the "bsdmainutils" package.
07:55:08 <oklopol> AnMaster: why does sunday as first day not make sense?
07:55:44 <AnMaster> well, whenever you like it or not (I don't) the week is based on religion, basically the bible.
07:56:17 <AnMaster> and there it says (iirc) that on the seventh day the god rested, since sunday is a non-work day it is clear that should be the seventh day
07:56:18 <oklopol> i have zero idea how that's relevant
07:56:43 <AnMaster> Saturday being a non-workday is a far newer invention really
07:56:55 <AnMaster> just look back 100 years (or less)
07:57:08 <oklopol> so, the week at a random point in time where christianity was born, was monday-based?
07:57:22 <oklopol> and thus others make no sense?
07:57:42 <AnMaster> of course other make *sense*, but not on the Western culture
07:58:47 <oklopol> hmm, i'm not sure i follow you, but i guess that doesn't matter.
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08:03:18 <fizzie> Heh, http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png makes my poor little program look really rather complicated.
08:03:19 <fungot> fizzie: or by " basic" :)
08:04:35 <oklopol> that's the whole fungot source?
08:04:36 <fungot> oklopol: it is very hard
08:05:45 <fizzie> That's it. Although there might be bugs in the graph-drawing that make it miss things.
08:06:09 <oklopol> isn't it a widely used superprogram
08:06:32 <oklopol> by graph-drawing you mean your graphifying the source?
08:06:47 <fizzie> Yes. Graphviz will probably work correctly.
08:08:11 <oklopol> does graphviz do something genetic-like, there are small anomalies you could never get with a static approach
08:08:28 <oklopol> bottom left, just above the small cluster of nodes
08:08:41 <oklopol> what the fuck is that weird corner the one edge does :P
08:09:11 <fizzie> I think that might be a rounding-thing when it's calculating the edge-splines or whatever it uses for drawing those.
08:09:46 <fizzie> There are other layout algorithms Graphviz has -- I could try the 'fdp' one at least. And I could definitely try a more recent graphviz, this one is ancient.
08:10:19 <oklopol> it wants the vertical lines to be separated with equal distances
08:10:36 <oklopol> and yeah it's round because of the rounding
08:11:00 <oklopol> but still, it goes to the left beyond necessary too for no apparent reason
08:11:08 <fizzie> I mean, a numerical round-off thing when calculating how to curve that mostly-horizontal part of the line.
08:11:34 <fizzie> Don't know anything how Graphviz actually draws that stuff.
08:12:31 <oklopol> the anomaly is the horizontal line is too long
08:12:58 <oklopol> wonder if i'm confusing vertical and horizontal
08:13:20 <fizzie> Horizontal is ---, since that's what the horizon does.
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08:14:38 <fizzie> That picture was drawn with a Graphviz from May 2006; I think I'll try the one from Feb 2008 we have on the Ubuntu boxen.
08:15:46 <fizzie> http://users.tkk.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png
08:15:46 <fungot> fizzie: because i forgot to check whether other parents have this slot or not?
08:16:14 <fizzie> There's still a slight bump in the lower-left corner, but it's smaller now.
08:17:57 <fizzie> Heh, there's the "throw 1d16" part a bit higher up, it's very recognizable from shape.
08:20:51 <fizzie> The whole graphing thing might not really be very helpful in understanding the program, but at least the pictures are pretty.
08:21:05 <fizzie> I could keep a printed-out copy of that thing on the wall.
08:23:54 <fizzie> At 300 dpi, the unscaled version would be about 72 cm wide and 139 cm tall, a reasonable size for a poster.
08:24:39 <fizzie> Hah, fungotfdpsmall.png at that users.tkk.fi address is the fdp-layout version. It's... less good.
08:24:40 <fungot> fizzie: a list of strings? what kind of package system does netbsd have?
08:25:05 <fizzie> fungot: If I recall correctly, netbsd has that BSDy "ports tree" thing. I don't see how a list of strings is relevant here.
08:25:05 <fungot> fizzie: good. then my method gives the right definition.
08:28:40 <fizzie> I think I'll try neato with "graph [overlap=false,splines=true]" and hope that poor computer can even process the whole graph then.
08:30:39 <fizzie> Hey, someone has updated these computers. Even this workstation now has three gigs of memory and a quad-core Q6600 cpu.
08:38:05 <fizzie> Well, it's a core2, so I assume x86-64, but the userland and kernel there seem to be 32-bit.
08:38:38 <fizzie> Probably the local IT people haven't bothered to craft a different image for the 64-bit-able boxen.
08:38:43 <AnMaster> Q6600 huh, what kind of name is that for an Intel CPU
08:38:55 <fizzie> That's what they're named nowadays.
08:39:09 <AnMaster> what is it supposed to mean even?
08:40:04 <fizzie> The Ennnn models are dual-core, and Qnnnn ones are quad-core; and Xnnnn is dual-core "extreme", while QXnnnn is quad-core "extreme". I don't remember what was so extreme about the "extreme" models.
08:44:14 <fizzie> In this one table I'm not seeing any other difference between Q6700 and QX6700 except that the "extreme" model has an unlocked clock multiplier for the overclocking crowd, and few hundred dollars more price. Both have 2*4M of L2 cache.
08:44:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, wow you could run DOS in just the cache
08:44:59 <AnMaster> probably not possible, but still...
08:45:07 <fizzie> Heh, neato has been running for about 20 minutes now, with no sign of stopping.
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09:18:58 <fizzie> Hey! The neato run finished, took only 50 minutes. Probably it has created a: horrible mess.
09:19:20 <fizzie> Uh... it created a zero-byte file.
09:19:25 <fizzie> That was not what I wanted.
09:22:00 <Deewiant> fizzie: your TKK homepage still links and redirects to befunge.org
09:23:11 <fizzie> Fixed it to point at zem.fi, even though there's really no content there either.
09:33:28 <fizzie> Heheh, the neato layout (with "overlap=ortho,splines=true") is very... organic: http://users.tkk.fi/htkallas/fungotneatosmall.png
09:33:28 <fungot> fizzie: het2: and those can only be understood after 20 years it's fnord
09:34:01 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think I'll be able to understand that graph after 20 years of fnording either, whatever that means.
09:38:20 <fizzie> I guess plain old "dot" is probably the best idea for code-graphs.
09:39:26 <Deewiant> I've yet to see a graph which doesn't look better in dot than anything else
09:40:10 <fizzie> I've seen some small graphs that worked a lot better with neato than with dot.
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09:41:11 <fizzie> Incidentally, is there some sensible image viewer for looking at these ~10kx10k pixel images without using much memory?
09:42:37 <fizzie> The dot graph is readable even as a "small" 4264x8182 image, but that's still a bit large for this workstation with only 512 megs of memory.
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09:43:42 <fizzie> I think running xli remotely won't help much either, as it creates a XImage which probably will eat up memory here locally at the X server.
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09:45:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | SevenInchBread i think oerjan or someone told you that a few days ago.
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10:16:46 <fizzie> Also a graphviz tweakery program would help. Something that would run dot first, then provide a GUI for dragging nodes around, and finally would ask Graphviz to reroute edges. Currently the initialization part sticks out of the graph like a sore thumb.
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10:39:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I hit another weird issue with erlang: non-printable chars to STDOUT are always output as escaped
10:39:30 <AnMaster> haven't found a solution for it yet
10:46:16 <AnMaster> this seems to be a issue with the stdout itself in erlang, not a problem with io:format
10:57:37 <fizzie> Heh, that's curious: it doesn't happen here with the Erlang version installed on these boxen.
10:58:07 <fizzie> Eshell V5.5.2 (abort with ^G)
10:58:07 <fizzie> 1> io:format("~c~n", [254]).
11:05:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, also what about LC_ALL?
11:06:42 <AnMaster> and iso-whatever-it-is not utf8
11:07:34 <AnMaster> even with: LANG=sv_SE.UTF-8 LC_ALL=sv_SE.UTF-8
11:08:31 <fizzie> It was the default LC_ALL=en_US.ISO8859-15 they have there, so [254] is printable. Still, io:format("~c~n", [7]). also produced a bell character, based on the terminal flash.
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11:09:30 <AnMaster> echo $ERL_AFLAGS $ERL_ZFLAGS $ERL_FLAGS
11:10:25 <fizzie> Don't have any of those variables et.
11:10:50 <AnMaster> I guess they changed it then since 5.5.2
11:11:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, which leads to another question. what OTP release is 5.5.2?
11:11:47 <AnMaster> the 5.x.x is just the erlang runtime system (erts) version
11:18:10 <Deewiant> my "Erlang OTP R11B" is "Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.5.5"
11:18:42 <AnMaster> well possibly R10B then, that is rather old
11:18:54 <AnMaster> oh and efunge have only been tested with R12B
11:19:00 <AnMaster> it may or may not work on older
11:20:09 <fizzie> I think 5.5.2 is R11B too, since /usr/local/lib/erlan/bin/start.script says "OTP APN 181 01","R11B".
11:20:40 <AnMaster> well maybe a difference patch release of R11B then. like R11B-2 or R11B-5 then
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11:32:21 <AnMaster> 1> MyPort = erlang:open_port({fd, 0, 1}, [out, binary]).
11:32:34 <AnMaster> 2> MyPort ! {self(), {command, <<$a,7,10>>}}.
11:32:35 <AnMaster> {<0.30.0>,{command,<<97,7,10>>}}
11:32:54 <AnMaster> and probably behaviour you can't depend on
11:37:56 <AnMaster> hah it works with -noshell, thus when running it freestanding
11:38:07 <AnMaster> using io:put_chars and io:format
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13:10:57 <tusho> ais523: http://www.pixelbeat.org/programming/gcc/static_assert.html
13:11:06 <tusho> you like gcc crazy things
13:11:29 <ais523> tusho: static asserts in all C compilers is a solved problem
13:11:44 <ais523> you define an array which has size -1 if the statement is false and size 1 if the statement is true
13:11:55 <tusho> that is a neat way of doing it
13:12:15 <ais523> tusho: Autoconf uses that method in order to determine size of types when cross-compiling
13:12:33 <ais523> it uses binary search on the type size with static asserts to see if the program compiles
13:14:00 <ais523> works quite effectively, actually, for gcc-bf that would be considerably faster than just measuring the 'correct way'
13:14:06 <ais523> because gcc-bf compiles fast and links slowly
13:15:15 <ais523> tusho: I've never seen that done with enums before, probably arrays is better
13:15:20 <tusho> ais523: is the gcc-bf on c.e.o up to date
13:15:22 <ais523> because a C compiler needn't error on 1/0
13:15:30 <tusho> ais523: update it :p
13:15:43 <ais523> tusho: I need to sort out just what's part of it and what isn't first
13:15:52 <ais523> the problem is that things have got so jumbled now
13:16:07 <ais523> I'm not sure whether to add the gcc and newlib sources as an official part of the project yet
13:16:19 <ais523> both need to be patched for it, one of the patches is I think for a genuine bug in gcc
13:17:17 <ais523> just one that doesn't affect most modern processors, it's machine-specific, and it's possible it doesn't affect any of the architectures gcc currently targets
13:17:39 <ais523> I also found the equivalent of assert(FALSE) because the gcc people couldn't be bothered to implement a certain case that never comes up on more standard architectures
13:17:48 <ais523> actually, three of them would use it except that they all special-cased it
13:18:00 <tusho> gcc is such a mess
13:18:19 <tusho> still cannot wait for clang...
13:18:23 <ais523> it seems like someone with a similar attitude to AnMaster has gone over the code
13:18:32 <ais523> and noted all the places where it's doing something incomprehensible
13:18:38 <ais523> but isn't sure how to fix it
13:18:44 <AnMaster> I don't have any assert(false);
13:18:50 <ais523> AnMaster: no, that was someone else
13:18:52 <AnMaster> I certainly have assert() to help catching bugs
13:18:53 <ais523> more than one person worked on gcc
13:18:57 <tusho> ais523: Do they take things absolutely literally like AnMaster? :)
13:19:04 <ais523> but some of comments there reminded me of you
13:19:38 <tusho> see, AnMaster's coding style is mostly fine apart from the micro-optimization for something like gcc or ruby or python or any actual 'real' thing
13:19:44 <ais523> AnMaster: let me try to find one
13:19:51 <tusho> but for esoteric programming language interps the way he critiques all our code because it doesn't live up to those standards is annoying
13:19:53 <tusho> that's the problem i have
13:20:26 <AnMaster> and yes I do impose certain minimal coding standards on myself
13:20:50 <tusho> AnMaster: sure, that's fine, not arguing with that
13:20:57 <tusho> but i don't like how you impose them on us :p
13:21:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Ello..
13:21:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | But if it can hosts the Andrei Machine 9000, I'll give it a look..
13:21:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :-).
13:21:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so that book covers hieratics, too?.
13:21:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | soon.
13:21:50 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You can cross-compile.
13:21:50 <ais523> /* ??? Should be able to merge these two by examining BLOCK_REG_PADDING. */
13:21:52 <tusho> vant interesting topikk
13:21:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | even then, one can do all the others.
13:22:02 <ais523> an example of the sort of comment I was thinking of
13:22:09 <ais523> ??? is gcc's equivalent of TODO, by the way
13:22:17 <ais523> AnMaster: similar English style, too
13:22:24 <AnMaster> well I use TODO/FIXME an such if that is what you mean
13:22:32 <AnMaster> since my editor makes them stand out in red
13:22:33 <tusho> no, he means the style of english
13:22:49 <AnMaster> I don't see anything special about the English style?
13:23:08 <tusho> not from that comment
13:23:11 <tusho> but perhaps he has seen others
13:23:16 <ais523> also, that sort of sentence fragment is something I see you do from time-to-time, but most other people don't
13:23:37 <tusho> /* ??? Should be able to merge these two by examining BLOCK_REG_PADDING. */
13:23:37 <tusho> i would write this as
13:23:39 <AnMaster> ais523, sorry, not sure what "sentence fragment" is.
13:24:00 <ais523> AnMaster: something that looks a bit like a sentence but isn't grammatically correct, in this case because there is a verb in it but no subject
13:24:01 <tusho> /* these two could probably be merged with BLOCK_REG_PADDING */
13:24:16 <ais523> tusho: yes, that looks more idiomatic
13:24:56 <tusho> here is the document by which i derive my c style: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/pikestyle
13:25:04 <tusho> it is very reasonable to me
13:25:14 * ais523 wonders how similar it is to theirs
13:25:15 <tusho> apart from the last section
13:25:17 <tusho> i agree with it in principle
13:25:19 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean like "BASE - I/O for numbers in other bases"
13:25:22 <tusho> but on today's systems...
13:25:24 <tusho> doesn't really work
13:25:48 <ais523> AnMaster: that's also a sentence fragment, although that's one of the contexts in which a fragment makes sense
13:26:00 <ais523> fragment's aren't wrong, as such, on their own (although they are wrong inside larger paragraphs)
13:26:10 <tusho> ais523: *fragments
13:26:14 <ais523> and in lists and so on they're pretty common
13:26:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well comments in C code tend to be on their own a lot of the time
13:26:18 <ais523> and thanks, it was a typo
13:26:20 <tusho> OH SHIT! HERE COMES AN 'S'!
13:26:29 <ais523> my fingers knew that line needed an apostrophe
13:26:39 <ais523> so they guessed before an s, which is a decent place to put one, generally speaking
13:26:43 <tusho> i don't think of the sentence in advance
13:26:46 <tusho> so I never have that kind of problem
13:26:55 <tusho> heck, I probably couldn't think of "fragment's aren't wrong, as such, on their own (although they are wrong inside larger paragraphs)" in my head
13:27:05 <tusho> I write down my sentences as I think of them, just a little ahead of my typing
13:27:07 <ais523> then when the aren't came up they realised that was where the apostrophe went and put another one in
13:27:09 <AnMaster> ais523, your fingers guess? They can think of their own?
13:27:11 <tusho> so that I can amend them to work while writing them
13:27:23 <tusho> AnMaster: no, his brain guessed.
13:27:26 <ais523> AnMaster: to some extent, that's how everyone gets good at typing, I thought
13:27:32 <ais523> it's my brain controlling the fingers, really
13:27:36 <AnMaster> tusho, of course I know.... I was trying to build up a joke
13:27:45 <ais523> but it's the part responsible for typing rather than the part responsible for thinking up sentences
13:27:46 <tusho> AnMaster: good, i'm sure it was terrible :-)
13:28:00 <tusho> You forgot the big wet troat
13:28:06 <tusho> Big wet trout or it didn't happen
13:28:16 * AnMaster slaps tusho with a super-large, super-smelly, decaying digitally-enhanced reinforced IRC-grade trout
13:28:36 <AnMaster> Slereah2, I normally avoid torut
13:29:45 <ais523> tusho: one thing lots of people don't realise is that commenting every line with what it does is actually helpful while learning asm
13:29:59 <ais523> although preferably comments explaining what the program does, on lines of their own, help too
13:30:00 <tusho> ais523: that is a c style guide
13:30:11 <tusho> and, er, i write my c code for people who know c
13:30:18 <ais523> asm is so much easier to read when every line has been translated into English and you don't know the notation, though
13:31:20 <ais523> tusho: the section at the end is unaware of how modern preprocessors work
13:31:26 <tusho> ais523: look at the date
13:31:35 <tusho> February 21, 1989 "
13:31:42 <ais523> ok, he can be forgiven for that
13:31:54 <ais523> but modern people can be forgiven for not following it
13:32:03 <tusho> i said i don't agree with the last section
13:33:35 <AnMaster> what is the "Algol68 report"?
13:33:43 <ais523> AnMaster: standard for Algol-68
13:33:46 <AnMaster> since it is mentioned in that link tusho gave
13:33:52 <ais523> and all the programming examples in it were beautifully formatted
13:34:01 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_68
13:34:18 <ais523> quite possibly the people preparing the standard had a pretty-printer
13:34:32 <ais523> although I'm also willing to believe that someone there was crazy enough to format them all perfectly by hand
13:34:52 <ais523> (ALGOL-68 isn't whitespace-sensitive, so the programs could have been written all one one line if desired...)
13:34:54 <tusho> this is the beef I have with just about every "beautiful coding" style:
13:34:55 <tusho> Sometimes they care too much: pretty printers mechanically produce pretty output that accentuates irrelevant detail in the program, which is as sensible as putting all the prepositions in English text in bold font.
13:35:20 <ais523> tusho: or carefully indent each column in source code which actually reads from left to right?
13:35:22 <AnMaster> that link tusho gave seems to suggest syntax highlighting is bad?
13:35:36 <tusho> AnMaster: no, just irrelevant syntax highlighting
13:35:38 <ais523> AnMaster: syntax highlighting and pretty-printing are different
13:35:43 <tusho> also plz2be looking up the definition of pretty-printer
13:35:45 <ais523> syntax higlighting makes files easier to edit by catching typos
13:35:46 <tusho> indent(1) is a prettyprinter
13:35:56 <tusho> astyle(1) or whatever is too
13:36:10 <ais523> pretty-printing can incidentally catch typos too, but its main purpose is to make source code look nicer and therefore easier to read
13:36:20 <AnMaster> ah well I use astyle myself. And I argue that one coding style per file is easier to read than a mix of several
13:36:28 <tusho> AnMaster: the second sentence is irrelevant
13:36:33 <tusho> the point is that pretty-printers have got it backwards
13:36:40 <AnMaster> tusho, because that is what I use astyle to fix.
13:36:46 * ais523 had forgotten that 'isnt' was an ALGOL-68 keyword
13:36:52 <tusho> AnMaster: not the point
13:36:53 <ais523> you have to love old-fashioned languages...
13:37:09 <ais523> AnMaster: also, the quotes are relevant unless you pragma a different way to specify keywords
13:37:22 <tusho> anyway, decided there's no point arguing with AnMaster a while ago, he just calls me a troll and never, ever changes his stance on any point...
13:37:23 <ais523> the default was to precede by a .
13:37:48 <ais523> Wikipedia seems to underline all the keywords
13:38:08 <AnMaster> I do change my stance on some issues
13:38:09 <ais523> and in fact apparently in one implementation you would write a keyword like isnt as isnt^H^H^H^H____
13:38:17 <ais523> which IMO is crazy, but there you go
13:38:26 <tusho> ais523: intercal should do that
13:38:27 <ais523> hmm... the creators of INTERCAL probably knew about this too
13:38:35 <ais523> tusho: it does in some of the operator names
13:38:44 <tusho> not for underlining
13:38:45 <ais523> the most portable way to write the unary XOR operator is V^H-
13:38:58 <ais523> not for underlining, though, you're right, but underlining was just a way to specify keywords
13:39:09 <ais523> in the Report, all the keywords were in bold and everything else was in italic
13:39:27 <ais523> also, ALGOL-68 is one of the few languages which allows you to have a variable and a keyword with the same name
13:39:55 <ais523> depending on how you were specifying keywords, the keyword and variable would either be .isnt and isnt, or ISNT and isnt, or isnt and _isnt
13:40:39 <ais523> Wikipedia has a similar example, actually: comment "bold" comment comment with the first and last instances of "comment" underlined
13:41:07 <ais523> oh, ALGOL-68 also allows spaces in variable names
13:41:35 <ais523> possibly that's where the _ means space in a variable name convention came from
13:41:58 <ais523> say you wanted to call a variable for in but were using RES stropping, you would write for_in because the underscore dekeyworded the words to either side
13:42:12 <tusho> I love how Rob Pike thinks UNIX and its principles are dead:
13:42:24 <tusho> # "Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad." - circa 1991
13:42:25 <tusho> # "Those days are dead and gone and the eulogy was delivered by Perl." - on one tool for one job
13:42:25 <tusho> # "I started keeping a list of these annoyances but it got too long and depressing so I just learned to live with them again. We really are using a 1970s era operating system well past its sell-by date. We get a lot done, and we have fun, but let's face it, the fundamental design of Unix is older than many of the readers of Slashdot, while lots of different, great ideas about computing and networks have been developed in the last 30 years. Using Unix is the c
13:42:31 <tusho> bet that last one got cut
13:43:44 <ais523> urk, Wikipedia just reminded me of Algol's strange terminology too, for instance "monadic" is Algolese for "unary", and "name" is Algolese for "address of"
13:43:45 <tusho> omputing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy."
13:43:54 <tusho> ais523: monadic = unary is APL/K/etc too
13:44:00 <ais523> other languages around that time
13:44:05 <ais523> still confusing if you know Haskell though...
13:44:06 <tusho> they only have two kind of operator/functions: monadic and dyadic
13:44:18 <tusho> ais523: Or category theory. :P
13:45:27 <ais523> Algol has the opposite problem to C++ to some extent, there was so much implicit casting going on that they needed a different operator to compare pointers and the things they pointed to
13:45:43 <AnMaster> tusho, I too agree with that link you posted before, apart from last section
13:46:03 <tusho> AnMaster: your commenting style is quite opposed to it
13:46:07 <ais523> Algol translated into C is interesting: all variables end up as type const
13:46:14 <AnMaster> headers should be possible to include in any order (unless there are exceptional circumstances) and also several times
13:46:15 <tusho> justifying the text, and the fancy * stuff at the start of continuing lines and such
13:46:16 <ais523> for instance in C you would write int i;
13:46:25 <tusho> it is directly arguing against things like doxygen
13:46:34 <AnMaster> tusho, how do you mean? comment style? Yes I used doxygen in headers to auto generate documentation
13:46:35 <ais523> translating the Algol style you'd get int * const ip = alloca(sizeof(int));
13:46:47 <tusho> AnMaster: perhaps you should read that article again...
13:46:59 <ais523> you could use a garbage-collected malloc rather than alloca if you needed the variable to stick around
13:47:04 <tusho> its an important point, because it's another aspect of the singular point it makes
13:47:47 <AnMaster> tusho, the reason I document headers is it is API docs for fingerprint developers
13:48:35 <ais523> possibly the best part of ALGOL for someone who likes crazy language design is that it has 5 different sorts of context
13:48:36 <AnMaster> and there is also the case of the gpl header. for obvious reasons
13:48:53 <ais523> the context of something determines what implicit casts can be applied to it
13:48:54 <tusho> mmph, sqlobject is weird
13:49:02 <tusho> and nobody in #python knows it, apparentl
13:49:08 <ais523> you can create a strong context by putting in an explicit cast, but that's cheating really
13:49:48 <ais523> yay: http://burks.brighton.ac.uk/burks/language/other/a68rr/rrtoc.htm
13:49:53 <ais523> the ALGOL 68 report is publically online
13:50:05 <ais523> I have it in paper form, but it's nice to know other people can get it too
13:51:30 * ais523 tries to find the PDF: the flowchart's pretty necessary for understanding coercion
13:51:49 <tusho> why won't that wurorkwrk
13:51:54 <ais523> http://vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de/~wb/RR/rr.pdf
13:54:32 <ais523> also, what sort of official language specification uses words like SITHETY as names for BNF groups?
13:54:41 <ais523> I know you can call them anything you like, but really...
13:57:37 <tusho> ais523: this is a pg-13 channel!
13:57:39 <tusho> wait, no, it's not
13:58:00 <ais523> tusho: anyway, if you've never read the ALGOL-68 Revised Report, you should
13:58:11 <ais523> preferably the paper version as I can't find the flowcharts in the PDF
13:58:16 <ais523> tusho: because it's almost an esolang
13:58:26 <ais523> the concepts aren't particularly unusual, but all the trappings are
13:58:49 <ais523> probably if it was proposed nowadays people would think it was an esolang
13:58:53 <ais523> I mean, spaces in variable names?
13:59:13 <tusho> you can do that in lisp
14:00:00 <ais523> tusho: algol requires no special syntax for it, though
14:00:07 <tusho> it's not special syntax
14:00:13 <ais523> tusho: you put vertical bars in
14:00:21 <tusho> ais523: yes, but you could never use "hello"
14:00:26 <tusho> (|setq| |hello world| 2)
14:00:35 <tusho> setq is syntactical sugar for |setq|
14:00:46 <ais523> ref int hello world = auto int;
14:00:57 <ais523> .ref .int hello world = .auto .int;
14:01:05 <ais523> unless I'm going to change the keywording style
14:01:19 <ais523> that can be abbreviated to .int hello world; the same way as in C
14:06:45 <AnMaster> I hate OS X... I have to help mom reinstall OS X on her mac again, since it managed to become unbootable again... In fact even windows xp have less issues than OS X 10.4 (don't know about 10.5, but 10.4 is bad)
14:07:18 <ais523> I've never used it, except for a short time to use a text editor once
14:07:53 <AnMaster> and it seems to consist of *two* install DVDs
14:08:26 <tusho> no reason for it to become unbootable
14:08:30 <tusho> possibly a hardware problem
14:08:38 <tusho> i can't think of any known problems that'd do that, anyway
14:08:52 <tusho> unless your mom suddenly decided to go in the terminal and type every command ever
14:08:55 <AnMaster> tusho, well I did boot from a linux cd with memtest, no issues. could be other hardware of course
14:13:42 <fizzie> That's curious, since I've had 10.4 on this iBook for a couple of years now (four, it seems) and there have never really been any OS-related trouble.
14:14:01 <fizzie> Maybe not four years with OS 10.4, since it had 10.3 when I bought it.
14:14:22 <AnMaster> well this one was sold with 10.4. Don't remember how long ago
14:14:34 <AnMaster> but this is the third reinstall
14:15:25 <tusho> AnMaster: then it is almost certainly a hardware problem i'd say
14:15:41 <tusho> i have had absolutely 0 problems with 10.4 for the few years i've used it
14:15:58 <tusho> and people I know who use OS X have barely any problems
14:16:02 <tusho> certainly not unbootable ones
14:16:04 <AnMaster> well, it isn't memory, I used memtest86+ from a bootable linux cd
14:16:31 <AnMaster> tusho, and I don't know any other diagnosis tool
14:17:14 <AnMaster> well disk diagnosis, and that shows no issues either
14:17:39 <tusho> ask on a mac site?
14:17:44 <AnMaster> oh and the issue wasn't the same every time, the first time the file system had got corrupted, this time it seems that only the system itself got corrupted in some way, since all files seems readable
14:17:46 <tusho> there's tons of them with hardware sections
14:19:17 <AnMaster> tusho, this time booting into that "command line only" mode worked, but I couldn't get the GUI running. It just locked up in the middle of the boot process (I waited over three hours, so I don't think it was "just a bit slow")
14:19:31 <tusho> "command line only mode" = single user mode
14:20:01 <tusho> AnMaster: have you asked her what she was doing before it became unbootable?
14:20:08 <tusho> users can be very silly :^)
14:21:34 <fizzie> Also often worth a try if you feel like more troubleshooting than a reinstall: booting with the "command-v" key combination pressed; it should boot without the GUI progress-bar thing and show related messages.a
14:23:34 <AnMaster> "turned on computer, checked mail, worked with work related stuff in word (she is a teacher), uploaded some images from her camera, did some light curve adjustments in photoshop, sent one of the pics using email, turned off computer"
14:24:00 <AnMaster> shutdown was apparently clean as far as I can tell
14:24:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm command-v, will remember that to next time
14:25:32 <AnMaster> btw I hate that: switching between mac keyboards and normal keyboards, you end up using Alt instead of ctrl and so on, all due to their silly keyboard layout
14:26:53 <fizzie> I've remapped most of these iBook keys to work just like a "normal" keyboard for that very reason.
14:27:22 <fizzie> Things don't exactly match the labeling now, but that's not too bad.
14:28:04 <AnMaster> oh and of course the install itself take ages. at least an hour it seems
14:28:22 <tusho> the keyboard layout makes sense
14:28:34 <tusho> because you don't get clashes like ctrl-c and ctrl-v inside the terminal
14:28:39 <tusho> ctrl means ctrl, cmd means cm
14:28:48 <AnMaster> while I could get an arch system up and running in about 30 minutes with KDE assuming all the files are on the cd (and none need to be downloaded)
14:29:08 <AnMaster> and no files need to be downloaded for the os x install cd
14:30:15 <tusho> continue being incredulous about "DVDs! Plural!" and I'll start listing off the things included on the dvds and why
14:30:50 <fizzie> Few gigabytes of printer drivers, for one thing. :p
14:31:00 <fizzie> (The size of those things is something incredible.)
14:31:46 <AnMaster> sure I bet there is a reason to include a movie editor, garage band (I wouldn't even know what category that app is in, certainly it is not professional music editor, like cubase or such)
14:32:16 <fizzie> HP includes a copy of Tomcat (the Java servlet container thing) in many of its printer drivers, just because the "printer status" driver-dialog-tab is implemented as a Java servlet.
14:32:16 <AnMaster> oh and a demo version of office 2004
14:32:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, argh that explains why the install need 300 mb on windows at least
14:32:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, the hplip drivers on linux are way smaller
14:33:03 <tusho> garageband is for...wait for it...garage bands
14:33:19 <tusho> and the reason all those apps are included is because it's the iLife suite
14:33:22 <tusho> and is a major selling point for apple
14:33:27 <tusho> plus, er, most of the apps are useful
14:33:30 <tusho> being that I use them often
14:34:35 <AnMaster> iMovie? Garage Band (hey they should have called it: iGarage iBand iMania or something), iPhoto (ok that is probably good acutally)
14:34:43 <AnMaster> don't remember what else is included in iLife
14:35:36 <tusho> how refreshing, how clever, how 2003
14:35:48 <fizzie> And iPhoto, of course.
14:36:15 <tusho> iLife = i{Photo,Movie,Web,DVD}, GarageBand
14:36:31 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't bother reading the line much longer than that part about iGarage iBand.
14:36:40 <tusho> a website creator thingy
14:36:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, "iGarage iBand iMania" even
14:36:46 <fizzie> iWeb == "Create websites that are more custom, more complete, more you."
14:36:55 <tusho> it's not _too_ bad, obviously limited etc
14:37:04 <tusho> but it generates valid, relatively reasonable markup
14:37:10 <tusho> and does things like rss feeds for its blogs and such
14:37:19 <tusho> so it's not useful for much but I've seen sites with it and they're ok
14:38:48 <tusho> i've used iMovie and it's pretty good for simple stuff
14:39:06 <tusho> i don't really have any photos to manage but I've played with iPhoto and it seems very good for what it does
14:39:21 <tusho> i've burned stuff with iDVD and it was basically like iMovie, good for simple stuff
14:41:08 <AnMaster> well Apple is at least not taking part in the "golf install cd image size" competition
14:41:27 <tusho> it's not exactly a huge problem, though
14:41:32 <tusho> you install the OS -once- in most cases
14:42:51 <AnMaster> in fact for me, apple lost all attraction it had back when they ditched ppc for intel
14:43:01 <AnMaster> before that they actually had something special
14:43:18 <tusho> who cares if the new macs are many times faster because of it
14:43:21 <tusho> it was something speeeeeecial
14:43:26 <tusho> anyway, their "something special" is their OS
14:43:45 <AnMaster> so why don't sell it for normal pcs?
14:43:52 <tusho> because they are a hardware company
14:44:06 <AnMaster> well they would make more money as a software company I suspect
14:44:28 <AnMaster> tusho, oh yes forgot that macs are overpriced too
14:44:39 <tusho> they're overpriced because of the OS
14:44:52 <tusho> regular priced computer + the OS tax
14:45:04 <tusho> they're a hardware company that makes their money because of their software
14:45:09 <tusho> it's confusing but it seems to work
14:45:10 <AnMaster> oh yes they got one good thing, the magnetic power connection
14:45:18 <AnMaster> that is actually a very good idea
14:45:38 <tusho> atm my imac has two wires on it
14:45:41 <tusho> the power connector and the mouse lead
14:45:50 <tusho> i used a wireless mouse but its battery stuff went weird
14:45:54 <tusho> so i'm using a wired one now
14:46:05 <tusho> i have the ethernet plugged in
14:46:13 <tusho> because the wireless slowdown annoys me
14:46:28 <AnMaster> "battery stuff went weird" <-- battery leaked or?
14:46:47 <tusho> nah, it just kept turning off because the batteries were supposedly dead but they had like a third left
14:46:49 <tusho> replaced it, happened again
14:47:01 <tusho> happened again like twice more so i just said fuck it and plugged this el cheapo one in
14:47:09 <AnMaster> tusho, no warranty on the mouse any more?
14:47:23 <tusho> it has been dropped quite a bit in its life
14:47:29 <tusho> so its probably that
14:47:46 <tusho> e.g. the teflon base has like 3 scratches and they make it really scratchy to use :\
14:47:58 <tusho> the scratches are pretty bad and the base is pretty vulnerable
14:48:05 <AnMaster> oh and my mouse is a wire one, from Microsoft actually, it's ergonomic
14:48:34 <AnMaster> wireless, no visible buttons, "scroll-ball"
14:48:37 <tusho> AnMaster, did apple kill your babies or something?
14:49:05 <tusho> apparently you're not secure enough in that position that you have to point it out all the damn time to everyone
14:49:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm talking about it now since I'm waiting for os x to finish reinstalling
14:49:49 <AnMaster> I think that explains the reason for this much better
14:50:12 <AnMaster> and then I got office and photoshop and a lot of other stuff to set up again
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15:48:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | How else will a process send a message to the process that handles them?.
15:48:09 <optbot> tusho: it has plenty to do with number
15:56:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >>> Music Game iniciado! Pergunta em 10 Segundos..
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16:30:49 <AnMaster> "The computer needs to restart to install upgrade" (translated from Swedish) ok fine. BUT: "The computer can't shut down due to not being able to stop "MirrorAgent"" (again translated from Swedish). That is just one of the daily issues on a clean OS X install
16:32:24 <AnMaster> seems I'm not alone with the issue according to google
16:33:03 <Deewiant> arguably it's a good thing that it tells you if something doesn't respond to SIGTERM (which I guess is what it tries?)
16:33:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I could force kill it
16:33:22 <ais523> Deewiant: probably sends it a stop signal first using its stop script
16:33:28 <AnMaster> but my mom is not computer literate enough to do that
16:33:29 <ais523> that's the best way to close down a service
16:33:40 <ais523> the way it's supposed to stop, anyway...
16:33:45 <AnMaster> and this "MirrorAgent" seems related to that apple idisk thing, which she doesn't even use
16:33:50 <AnMaster> so no idea why it is running at all
16:34:50 <ais523> AnMaster: probably a service that loads on startup
16:34:51 <Deewiant> yes, you could force kill it and the OS could as well, but if the program in question has your unsaved master's thesis in it you might want to consider another route
16:35:11 <ais523> well, yes, but it doesn't know that
16:35:22 <ais523> generally speaking if someone installs a service they want to be able to use it
16:35:55 <AnMaster> nor did I see any option for it
16:36:09 <ais523> most services are enabled by default, is my point
16:36:15 <ais523> because they can't be used if they aren't running
16:36:19 <AnMaster> ais523, that is the wrong approach
16:36:45 <ais523> well, quite possibly, it's the approach most OSes actually use in practice, though, even if you don't like it
16:37:00 <ais523> normally they're things like http servers or whatever, in which case that approach makes sense
16:37:08 <ais523> or otherwise might need to run without the user doing something
16:37:17 <AnMaster> 1) more possibilities for bugs (like in the case I just hit) 2) more memory used, longer startup time 3) more potential security risks
16:37:40 <ais523> this is why people securing OSes often go through all the services they don't need and turn them off
16:37:48 <ais523> and yes, I agree that it's a bad idea in this case, probably in most cases
16:37:55 <ais523> that doesn't prevent it being true, though
16:37:59 <AnMaster> ais523, secure by default. OpenBSD got a point...
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16:38:16 <tusho_> AnMaster: "The computer needs to restart to install upgrade" (translated from Swedish) ok fine. BUT: "The computer can't shut down due to not being able to stop "MirrorAgent"" (again translated from Swedish). That is just one of the daily issues on a clean OS X install
16:38:18 <tusho_> not a very clean install
16:38:33 <AnMaster> tusho_, it seems to be a issue other ppl hit according to google
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16:38:40 <AnMaster> so I'd say it is not something specific to this install
16:38:47 <tusho_> never hit it before, never heard of anyone hitting it
16:39:05 <AnMaster> http://macosx.com/tech-support/mac/mirroragent/16797.html
16:39:05 <AnMaster> http://www.macfixitforums.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/721735/site_id/1
16:39:11 <AnMaster> just the two first google hits
16:39:42 <tusho_> AnMaster: barely any problem has never happened before
16:39:47 <tusho_> the question is how common it is
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17:06:44 <ais523> does anyone here know where the "Rules of the Internet" are listed?
17:06:50 <ais523> People keep referring to them by number, which is disconcerting
17:06:56 <ais523> because I don't know which number goes with which rule
17:11:06 <Deewiant> rule 34 is common, others aren't
17:11:36 <ais523> Deewiant: do you know where the list is, though?
17:11:54 <Deewiant> have you seen other numbers? I don't think there a list, let alone rules 1 through 33
17:12:04 <ais523> Wikipedia redirects me to "Netiquette", which is not all that helpful
17:12:10 <ais523> also I'm pretty sure I've seen other numbers
17:12:18 <ais523> by the way, 34: "There is porn of it", right?
17:12:40 <Deewiant> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Rules_Of_The_Internet
17:13:03 <ais523> better get a different connection before going there, though
17:13:38 <Deewiant> evidently also http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:r45nvkJrRYsJ:rules.of-the-internet.com/&strip=1
17:13:44 <ais523> ah, found it in Wayback
17:14:37 <ais523> still, most of those aren't very interesting
17:14:46 <Deewiant> rule 34 is the only standard one I know of
17:15:12 <ais523> there's rule 35 which says that rule 34 doesn't apply if someone mentions rule 34
17:15:25 <ais523> sort of like that rider on Godwin's Law, which I'm surprised doesn't have a number
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17:16:24 <Deewiant> google seems to think that rule 35 is more commonly "if there is no porn of it, it will be made."
17:16:36 <pikhq> Everything except for rules 1, 2, and 34 can't really be agreed upon.
17:16:52 <ais523> presumably 34 caught on because it was the only sensible one of the lot
17:16:54 <pikhq> Rule 1: Don't talk about /b/. Rule 2: Do *NOT* talk about /b/.
17:16:54 <Deewiant> rules 1 and 2 most likely depend on the community in which they are quoted
17:17:05 <Deewiant> and as evidenced in that link above, rule 2 isn't universal
17:17:10 <ais523> Deewiant: it's /b/ everywhere I look for rule 1 at least
17:17:23 <ais523> which is strange, because that implies that in fact lots of people are talking about it
17:17:29 <Deewiant> and also, I think 34 is a lot older than the rest.
17:17:31 <pikhq> Since most of those come courtesy of IRC and/or /b/, I'd say rules 1 and 2 referring to /b/ make sense.
17:17:34 <ais523> in other words, you can't quote rule 1 without breaking it
17:17:52 <pikhq> ais523: It's a Fight Club reference.
17:18:44 <ais523> Fight Club didn't break the rule, strangely enough
17:18:49 <ais523> it was "You do not talk about Fight Club"
17:19:02 <ais523> that doesn't rule out the person giving the rule talking about Fight Club
17:19:13 <ais523> thus the rule can be given without breaking it
17:22:19 <tusho> Rules 1 and 2 are only for raids.
17:22:25 <tusho> Or they're not, depending on who you ask.
17:22:42 <ais523> clearly this is all a lot more confusing than I thought it would be
17:22:55 <pikhq> It's the Internet: nothing is well-defined.
17:23:00 <pikhq> I'm calling that metarule 1.
17:23:24 <tusho> "Rules of the internet" are what a bunch of /b/tards thought was funny to list.
17:23:37 <tusho> The ones relating to porn and its existence are mostly standard & useful.
17:23:45 <tusho> The rest is just filler.
17:24:10 <tusho> I mean, the person who posted rules 1 & 2 just violated them.
17:24:16 <tusho> It should be "Do not talk about /b/ outside of /b/"
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17:42:55 <tusho> http://www.conservapedia.com/Evolution
17:49:44 <ais523> tusho: the URL tells me all I need to know, I don't even need to visit it
17:49:51 <ais523> unless it's been vandalised for the trillionth time
17:49:58 <tusho> ais523: oh you do need to visit it
17:50:02 <tusho> it has been edited
17:50:07 <tusho> make sure to have images enabled
17:50:09 <tusho> it's not vandalised
17:50:16 <tusho> just click and gawp.
17:50:27 <ais523> they haven't got the picture of Jesus riding a dinosaur back again, have they?
17:50:35 <tusho> something entirely new
17:52:23 <AnMaster> tusho, I have a question for you about OS X
17:52:31 <tusho> AnMaster: what, 'WHY DOES IT SUCK SO MUCH?'
17:52:33 <AnMaster> where do you set fonts to use in the menus and such?
17:52:53 <AnMaster> my mother think they are too smal
17:52:59 <ais523> that might make two Macs different!
17:53:01 <tusho> why didn't you say
17:53:12 <tusho> thought you meant typeface
17:53:18 <AnMaster> so you mean you can set font size but not font
17:53:29 <AnMaster> now where to I make the fonts larger
17:53:31 <tusho> having not done it i don't know, just a sec
17:53:34 <tusho> i'll give a quick look
17:54:28 <tusho> i don't believe it was native in tiger, which is odd
17:54:32 <tusho> perhaps it's in leopard
17:54:36 <tusho> apparently tinkertool can do it
17:54:45 <tusho> http://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html
17:55:08 <tusho> that is a shame, i wonder why not
17:55:14 <tusho> AnMaster: tinker tool -> fonts
17:57:35 <tusho> but yeah, that sucks muchly
18:00:19 <AnMaster> tusho, hm that OS X lack that setting by default?
18:00:30 <tusho> dunno if it's in leopard
18:00:34 <tusho> i think so, they made stuff all vectory then
18:00:39 <tusho> and thus added a lot more sizing stuff
18:00:40 <AnMaster> wow you admitted it ;) *ducks*
18:00:57 <tusho> i have never denied flaws in os x, and i argue exactly the same with people who spew crap about windows
18:01:29 <tusho> real flaws: yes, bad
18:01:44 <tusho> flaws that are being exaggerated or are just untrue, etc.: argue
18:07:03 <AnMaster> why does mac firefox have rearranged menus compared to linux firefox...
18:09:41 <tusho> AnMaster: to fit in with the platform
18:09:43 <tusho> its the same on windows
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18:16:08 <AnMaster> tusho, well for ppl who use firefox on many platforms it is confusing
18:16:25 <tusho> AnMaster: not really.
18:16:34 <tusho> surely, being such a masochist, you would have learned all the shortcuts?
18:16:37 <AnMaster> tusho, yes took a while to find the settings dialog
18:16:47 <ais523> tusho: presumably AnMaster has his own shortcuts
18:16:51 <tusho> on OS X it's always appname->preferences
18:16:51 <ais523> for every application ever invente
18:17:02 <tusho> and it's always cmd-,
18:17:13 <tusho> except FF seems to fail at cmd-, for some godforsaken reason that is their fault :P
18:17:20 <tusho> even though it's listed as the shortcut
18:17:30 <tusho> and flashes the right menu bar entry when you type it
18:18:38 <tusho> AnMaster: the thing with ff is that they do everything themselves, pretty much
18:18:48 <tusho> so it works OS X like enough apart from tons of corner cases
18:19:06 <AnMaster> tusho, or it could be os x that works apart from corner cases
18:19:15 <tusho> AnMaster: because I know how firefox does it
18:19:28 <tusho> xul is kind of a waste of time anyway they have to recode the gui for different platforms to fit in regardless
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18:43:02 <tusho> why is http://instantrimshot.com/ pressed down when you're not clicking it
18:43:06 <tusho> and pressed out when you click
18:43:44 <ais523> tusho: you were holding your mouse upside-down?
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19:36:30 <tusho> i hold the title of the submitter of the most controversial reddit submission of all time
19:36:34 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/controversial/
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20:11:45 <AnMaster> tusho, another issue, the default terminal on OS X is braindead
20:12:08 <AnMaster> tusho, how do you jump to beginning of the line?
20:12:09 <tusho> also i'm not steve jobs, plz2be stop bugging me about things you don't like in os x
20:12:15 <tusho> like every other terminal
20:12:35 <tusho> Deewiant: cmd.exe is a terminal?
20:13:01 <Deewiant> no, it's a terminal emulator like all those other programs you're talking about
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20:13:56 <AnMaster> tusho, I use "home" on my termina
20:14:06 <tusho> that's not standard
20:14:07 <ais523> I thought it was normally in the 100s
20:14:12 <AnMaster> tusho, it seems to work on every one
20:14:20 <tusho> AnMaster: apparently not.
20:14:23 <ais523> oh dear, another tusho/AnMaster style argument brewing up?
20:14:30 <AnMaster> tusho, yet this done doesn't obey ~/.inputrc
20:14:31 <tusho> AnMaster is just whining about os x
20:14:34 <tusho> AnMaster: are you sure
20:15:59 <AnMaster> tusho, I copied the one from my own computer... restarted terminal.app didn't help
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20:17:08 <ais523> but I'm trying to read two length documents at once, so didn't even notice for ages the first time
20:17:48 <AnMaster> tusho, also l10n is braindead in OS X. Finder says the directory is called "Bibliotek" but the terminal think it is called "Library
20:18:02 <tusho> AnMaster: SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW YOU DON'T LIKE OS X
20:18:09 <tusho> I. CANNOT. DO. ANYTHING. ABOUT. IT.
20:18:12 <tusho> STOP. HIGHLIGHTING. ME!
20:18:24 <tusho> it's like the 10th time you've complained about it today to me
20:31:27 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and weird, to type ctrl-c you hit cmd-.
20:31:52 <tusho> cmd-. does that too and i don't know why.
20:31:54 <tusho> but you type ctrl-c.
20:31:56 <tusho> AnMaster: SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW YOU DON'T LIKE OS X
20:32:37 <ais523> tusho: by the way, did I tell you that I used OS X and the menus were all in the wrong place and I couldn't cut-and-paste left handed without using my index finger?
20:32:40 <AnMaster> tusho, ah now it does, had to change a setting for Terminal.app
20:33:01 <tusho> AnMaster: I never had to do that.
20:33:09 <tusho> now SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW YOU DON'T LIKE OS X TO ME
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20:35:17 <oerjan> ayeeh, it's changing! run away!
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20:35:36 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokoko
20:35:42 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:35:46 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:35:47 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:35:51 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:36:02 <ais523> oh dear, we were going so well too
20:36:10 <oerjan> for some reason this oko tower reminds me of that LHC black hole
20:36:38 <ais523> oklofok: it was sufficiently distracting that you forgot what it was
20:37:01 <oerjan> it was a raven. it quothed "Nevermore", except in finnish
20:39:07 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Sunday as first doesn't make sense
20:40:09 <oerjan> the resting day was Saturday, as any jew could tell you. blame the christians for confusing it
20:41:00 <pikhq> Catholic church, specificially.
20:41:26 <oerjan> yes, some christian churches (adventists?) reversed it
20:41:39 <oklofok> in my opinion he wouldn't have had a point even if sunday were the original
20:42:43 <oerjan> i think monday being first may be an ISO standard or something
20:43:13 <pikhq> oerjan: And some christian churches point out that the day doesn't even *matter*...
20:43:48 <pikhq> Given that Christianity doesn't exactly follow Jewish laws & traditions, anyways...
20:43:54 <oerjan> indeed unless you are a young earth creationist you don't consider it a literal day anyhow
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20:45:07 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about celevrating Sunday being because that was the day of Jesus' resurrection
20:47:59 <oerjan> wp seems to agree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Sabbath
20:48:18 <AnMaster> as I also said: I don't like it. But you got a point
20:48:30 <AnMaster> but if it is an ISO standard I agree with it
20:52:19 <oerjan> that may or may not be an ass-pull
20:53:29 <fizzie> Yes, ISO 8601:1988 defines Monday as the first day of the week.
20:53:48 <fizzie> Or at least that's what the man page of my strftime function says for the %V formatting specifier, I haven't checked.
20:54:53 <oerjan> ah yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_the_week#First_day_of_the_week mentions it, though not the Sunday page
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21:34:01 <tusho> <AnMaster> but if it is an ISO standard I agree with it
21:34:04 <tusho> great reasoning there
21:34:13 * tusho proposes a new ISO: Everyone should jump off a cliff.
21:34:21 <tusho> Woohoo! It got ratified! AnMaster, get to work.
21:34:38 <oerjan> sounds like a master villain scheme to me
21:34:47 <AnMaster> tusho, I like using standardlized systems
21:34:53 <ais523> tusho: arguably OOXML is a step in that direction
21:34:57 <tusho> AnMaster: what system are you using right now?
21:34:58 <ais523> as in, straight off a cliff
21:35:12 <ais523> also, now we can persuade AnMaster to distribute cfunge in pax format
21:35:13 <AnMaster> tusho, Linux, but there are no standard OS.
21:35:32 <tusho> AnMaster: That's like offering a seperate Windows version.
21:35:33 <ais523> AnMaster: tar is no longer specified by POSIX
21:35:34 <tusho> Would you do that??????????????
21:35:57 <ais523> oh dear, someone else who actually had heard of pax before I told them
21:36:05 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes. Windows doesn't obey POSIX, nor does tar.
21:36:08 <ais523> this is one strike against my theory of using it for C-INTERCAL...
21:36:18 <ais523> AnMaster: well, Windows didn't fail a POSIX testsuite once
21:36:26 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I found I had it installed, even though I had no clue what it was
21:36:37 <tusho> ais523: No actually I thikn that should be @AnMaster.
21:36:45 <tusho> If Windows doesn't fail POSIX tests, surely cfunge should support it?
21:36:54 <ais523> AnMaster: well it's what they put in POSIX to replace tar
21:37:15 <AnMaster> tusho a clean windows install would fail it
21:37:25 <tusho> AnMaster: are you sure? ais523?
21:37:37 <ais523> tusho: the test is widely believed to have been heavily rigged
21:37:51 <ais523> by implementing only the parts the testsuite tested
21:38:00 <tusho> surely that's quite a lot though
21:38:02 <ais523> and taking advantage of every optional feature by not implementing it
21:38:11 <ais523> in many cases returning ENOSYS is enough to pass POSIX
21:38:17 <AnMaster> and cfunge *does* depend on some optional features
21:38:37 <ais523> probably it was a nonstandard configuration too
21:38:48 <tusho> AnMaster: the website claims it supports any posix system
21:38:54 <tusho> better change that
21:39:16 <AnMaster> tusho, also see README for more details
21:39:26 <tusho> like i'd ever download cfunge
21:39:26 <AnMaster> though that may be missing there
21:40:07 <tusho> ihope: You missed a 4?
21:40:09 <ihope> The technique used to find this answer is operant conditioning.
21:40:19 <ais523> tusho: why wouldn't you? Waiting for it to turn up in your package manager?
21:40:32 <ais523> I got it working a lot faster than I got CCBI working
21:40:35 <tusho> ais523: i hear apple are including it with the next os x
21:40:43 <ais523> (although I did write the build system for both by hand)
21:40:43 <ihope> The question is how many times a previously rewarded behavior must be punished before the behavior is stopped whenever the instrument of punishment is seen.
21:40:47 <tusho> except it's reduced functionality
21:41:01 <ihope> The instrument of punishment is a spray bottle. Use your imagination.
21:41:03 <tusho> all it does is print 'OS X is too retarded and dumb in every aspect to run this program, please complain to tusho <penguinofthegods@gmail.com>'
21:41:23 <AnMaster> tusho, as far as I know cfunge works on OS X
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21:41:33 <tusho> AnMaster: how can it, OS X sucks in every possible way
21:41:36 <tusho> and I'm the only one who can fix it
21:41:46 <AnMaster> tusho, it is way more posix than windows at least
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21:42:20 <tusho> AnMaster: it is certified unix, in fact.
21:44:44 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway I've pushed the new C-INTERCAL version
21:44:48 <ais523> with the new build system
21:44:51 <ais523> and your patch to IFFI
21:45:10 <ais523> although the cfunge stuff is broken atm
21:45:17 <ais523> as I haven't written any build system for it
21:48:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !d !d.
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21:55:30 <ihope> Hmm, I wonder how hard it would be to implement a Minsky machine in Proce.
21:56:17 <ais523> that was definitely me
21:56:24 <ais523> it was a finite loop between EgoBot and bsmnt_bot
21:56:26 <tusho> that's from the dupdog times
21:56:44 <ais523> once I implemented Underload in EgoBot, I got an infinite loop going too
21:57:00 <ihope> A register might be implementable as some construct that will oscillate at harmonics of a certain frequency. The tricky parts are creating that register and getting the harmonics to change right.
21:57:59 <tusho> ais523: ha, I knew it
21:58:01 <tusho> it was cakeprophet
21:58:05 <tusho> that's where dupdog comes from
21:58:22 <ais523> dupdog is great though
21:58:30 <ais523> it's one of those languages like Xigxag
21:58:34 <ais523> which obviously isn't Turing-complete
21:58:37 <tusho> 19:17:01 <CakeProphet> hmm... I feel insipiration for an esoteric language.
21:58:40 <ais523> but you can't really tell for sure
21:59:02 <tusho> i think dupdog is tc
21:59:11 <ais523> do you think Xigxag is tc?
21:59:29 <ais523> for that matter, that 2,3 turing machine is also reasonably obviously non-TC, except that it is
21:59:36 <ais523> I thought it was non-TC for ages while trying to do the proof
21:59:56 <tusho> ais523: no, i don't think xigxag is tc
22:10:08 <oerjan> hm so now there is a cycle of esoteric interpreters
22:10:19 <ais523> oerjan: in which languages?
22:10:42 <oerjan> they're a bit too close for comfort though
22:10:44 <ais523> hmm... I want to get C into that cycle somewhere
22:19:31 <oerjan> spam: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Turing_machine
22:19:52 <oerjan> (new page so i cannot do it)
22:20:42 <ais523> I've been deleting the spam straight from the RSS feeds recently
22:20:51 <ais523> but you managed to beat even the RSS feed in reporting it this time
22:29:28 <ais523> oklofok: I can send you deleted versions if you really need them and there was nothing wrong with them
22:29:36 <ais523> it's just random strings of letters, mostly
22:29:56 <oerjan> well you could base an esolang on it :D
22:32:21 <oklofok> i want a language that opens new threads like every cycle, and they never die
22:32:32 <oklofok> so that execution is O(n^2) for n steps
22:32:51 <ais523> oklofok: sounds like Proud in reverse
22:33:01 <ais523> Proud starts by creating an uncountably infinite number of threads
22:33:06 <ais523> and kills them until there's only one left
22:33:15 <oklofok> is proud your declarative superlanguage?
22:33:30 <oklofok> i like that conceptualization
22:33:51 <ais523> hmm... in theory you could run a Proud program using bogosort-like methods
22:34:26 <oklofok> random perms or random swaps?
22:34:31 <ais523> put all the objects in a random order, repeat if it's wrong
22:34:57 <ais523> swaps is bozosort, it's apparently twice as fast
22:36:11 <oklofok> i find that counter-intuitive, you'd think the sorted list would be kind of a corner that's less probable to achieve by random exchanges
22:36:23 <oklofok> whereas the permutator will try all things equally probably
22:36:39 <ais523> actually I would have expected them to be equally fast
22:36:49 <ais523> there's a proof of it linked from the wiki article, though
22:36:55 <ais523> some mathematician was bored enough to write a paper about it
22:36:58 <oklofok> well yeah that's what i assumed too
22:37:08 <oklofok> and yeah i read taht paper
22:39:04 <oklofok> a greater reason why you'd think the swapper would be slower is that you get repeated states more probably
23:06:07 <ais523> it's linked from the wiki article on bogosort
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23:39:34 <tusho> who wants to see the mammoth sql query that ais523 wrote (well, I clarified exactly what I was trying to do to ais and he wrote it)?
23:44:47 <oerjan> is it a woolly mammoth?
23:44:56 <tusho> SELECT name, threads.threadid, MAX(date), (readtime IS NULL AND MAX(date) > defaultreadtime OR readtime IS NOT NULL and MAX(date) > readtime) AS new FROM ((posts CROSS JOIN threads USING (threadid)) CROSS JOIN userdata LEFT JOIN readtimes ON (userdata.userid=readtimes.userid AND threads.threadid=readtimes.threadid)) WHERE userdata.userid=? GROUP BY threads.threadid ORDER BY MAX(date) DESC;
23:45:15 <tusho> that requires an index on posts USING BTREE (threadid,date)
23:45:25 <tusho> and an index on userthreadlastread (userid,threadid)
23:47:25 <tusho> oerjan: that is a woolly mammoth is it not
23:48:19 <oerjan> well i see some threading there, so yeah
23:48:29 <tusho> oerjan: oh, not that kind of thread
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01:50:46 <ihope> I'm getting the idea that ais523 is the king of small, incomprehensible, quickly-written programs.
01:50:58 <ihope> Which is probably a good thing.
02:43:09 <GregorR> http://codu.org/lambda/lambda.html
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03:18:59 <Sgeo> My Data Communications teacher said that having files on the desktop slowed the computer down, so it's better to use shortcuts
03:19:38 <GregorR> Was (s)he referring to remote login, which (on Windows) downloads the files at login time?
03:20:40 <Sgeo> Hm, maybe, don't think so though
03:20:54 * GregorR is just being optimistic :P
03:21:41 <Sgeo> He says that his boss's computer was running slow, so he told his boss to clean up his inbox, which had 7GB worth of stuff. The boss saved the files to the desktop, and complained that the computer was still slow..
03:22:43 <GregorR> Sgeo: http://codu.org/lambda/lambda.html
03:22:46 <Sgeo> Also, when I first went to his website, it was obvious to me that if he were teaching me web design, I'd drop the class -- the site was made in MS Word
03:23:27 <GregorR> http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/gkrichar/ // look at my sexy academic site 8-D
03:23:37 <Sgeo> http://snyfarvc.cc.farmingdale.edu/~kollarr/
03:24:27 <GregorR> He should not be allowed to list "Open Source" in his areas of teaching interest and research.
03:25:00 <Sgeo> Um, why not? Just because he doesn't use it, doesn't mean he knows nothing about it..
03:25:14 <Sgeo> If he listed "Web design", I'd scream
03:35:55 * Sgeo wonders if he can manually clean up his professor's website
03:37:11 <Sgeo> Should I try manually cleaning it up?
03:37:24 <Sgeo> tbh, I don't know how much or how little of the CSS is legit
03:37:48 <Sgeo> Are there automatic cleaners?
03:37:53 <GregorR> It's not like you can upload it.
03:38:48 <Sgeo> That cleaner didn't work
03:38:53 <Sgeo> Could email him
03:39:22 <Sgeo> Actually, the resulting HTML looks mostly clean
03:39:40 <Sgeo> I could get rid of the rest myself
03:39:46 <GregorR> Don't you think he might be insulted by that email?
03:40:04 <GregorR> "You used Word to make your HTML, that's so effing stupid, here's how to do it right ... prof."
03:40:29 <Sgeo> He knows using Word to make HTML sucks
03:48:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | @-_-Ѣs!X#;_[6$5T.
03:52:00 <Sgeo> Not sure if this teacher is better or worse than the document.write(<b>"Hello</b>); one
03:52:16 <Sgeo> document.write(<b>"Hello"</b>);
03:55:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yuck.
03:55:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i already showed how its gimmicky..
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04:23:16 * oerjan hands optbot an apostrophe
04:23:39 <GregorR> Give Markov chain a brake, garbage in garbage out :)
04:23:43 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | OUCH.
04:23:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | WHAT HAVE I DONE.
04:25:00 <GregorR> Apparently Slereah2 says that a lot.
04:25:11 <GregorR> (Read: twice in the history of #esoteric )
04:25:13 <oerjan> i thought optbot used entire quotes, not markov chains
04:25:14 <optbot> oerjan: get kubuntu or whatever working again
04:25:29 <fungot> oerjan: as i'm learning flex/ bison
04:26:23 <oerjan> please. they're an endangered species. or something.
04:30:45 <oerjan> conservation dependent, actually
04:32:23 <GregorR> "Conservation dependent" seems like the buzzword version of "endangered"
04:33:26 <oerjan> it's three steps less serious. also, obsolete in new evaluations since 2001
04:33:47 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_status
04:44:05 <bsmntbombdood> WARNING: This website contains explicit adult material.
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04:46:03 <oerjan> although not on that page, i think
05:43:37 <GregorR> I learned today that you can apply church numerals directly to each other to get powers.
05:43:47 <GregorR> e.g. 2^3 is 2 applied to 3.
05:44:51 <oerjan> the other way around, actually
05:45:31 <GregorR> You apply a function to its argument :P
05:48:15 <GregorR> http://codu.org/lambda/lambda.html
05:50:40 <GregorR> No multi-parameter lambdas (bah 2 syntax sugar :P), lambda=^, bullet=.
05:51:02 <GregorR> ^x.^y.<exp> for multi-parameter
05:51:30 <oerjan> if you don't have multi-parameter, . is superfluous
05:51:59 <GregorR> Yes it is, but I wrote it with this syntax because it's the syntax we use in my class.
05:53:30 * GregorR adds multi-parameter lambdas *shrugs*
05:53:31 <oerjan> (\f.\x.f(f(f x))) a b gives a message that the page contains an error
05:55:42 <GregorR> Could be partially because I said '^', not '\' :P
05:56:46 <GregorR> What browser are you using?
05:56:59 <GregorR> IE = worst browser in existence.
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05:59:48 <GregorR> WTF? IE cannot be this screwed up.
06:02:54 <GregorR> I was trying to debug my lambda calculus solver on IE.
06:03:02 <GregorR> It's just so effing wonky I can't even begin to figure out what's wrong.
06:03:07 <GregorR> So I'm fixing it by adding this to the top of the .html:
06:03:09 <GregorR> Note: This does <i>not</i> work in Internet Explorer. Please use a browser with at least proximal support for the most basic web standards.<hr/>
06:03:26 <ae5ir> well it's not called the broken browser for nothing
06:03:29 <Sgeo> GregorR, you fail at cross-browser compatibility
06:04:14 <GregorR> Sgeo: IE doesn't count for cross-browser compatibility. It's like saying that your program isn't cross-platform because it doesn't work on Windows even though it works on Mac OS X, GNU/Linux and eighty other unixen.
06:05:05 * Sgeo would say that that's not cross-platform in an appreciable manner
06:05:21 * Sgeo feels beliggerant right now
06:05:39 <GregorR> Hey, don't blame me for the fact that every OS with an appreciable marketshare is POSIX-compatible with only one exception.
06:06:21 <GregorR> Oh wait, that's right, Windows /is/ POSIX compatible for a sufficiently limited definition of POSIX, isn't it ^^
06:08:41 <Sgeo> Would link to http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Linux but it's crap right now
06:08:55 <Sgeo> So I haven't linked to it, and won't link to it.
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06:28:23 <ae5ir> for the love of all that's holy, get on aim
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07:43:37 <psygnisfive> its hard for me to get and stay on IRC now that im back at school
07:43:39 <oklofok> but i already have messenger and skype, and i don't use those either
07:44:13 <fizzie> Get an AIM account and you'll get a constant stream of psygnisfive-talk, all day long.
07:44:42 <fizzie> Add 2-3 inches, all natural.
07:44:55 <psygnisfive> just set it up so that skype signs on automatically and leave it in the background
07:45:32 <oklofok> you understand i have no other people there than you
07:46:04 <fizzie> Oh, that's sweet. "You're the only one I want to skype with!"
07:46:18 <psygnisfive> but i'd have skype on just to chat with you
07:46:30 <psygnisfive> i mean, obviously i'd prefer irc but thats not working so well for me
07:46:34 <oklofok> wow, i would be, like, so special
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09:42:41 <oklofok> puzzlet: we have these demonstrations, basically you show your homework to the class
09:48:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm...
09:49:59 <fizzie> I just printed out that fungot flowgraph, with some font changes, scaled to an A4 paper, on the normal 600dpi laser printer here, and: I can actually read the node labels! (If I try really hard.)
09:50:00 <fungot> fizzie: people are working on
09:50:14 <fizzie> fungot: Working on what?
09:50:14 <fungot> fizzie: i was making a schemeql type thing, and replace with eval " origina line"
09:50:29 <fizzie> fungot: You have some strange hobbies.
09:50:29 <fungot> fizzie: the java.sun.com page uses an applet tag
09:52:25 <fizzie> The font height, for a lowercase letter, in this printout is approximately 2-3 times the thickness of a paper.
09:52:59 <fizzie> I don't have a ruler available, but I think it's definitely <1mm.
09:53:07 <oklofok> i would ask you to show me, but i guess this is one of those situations where that's impossible
09:55:02 <puzzlet> what i don't understand is the meaning of that arrow
09:55:36 <fizzie> Some people call it "taikanuoli", lit. "magic arrow".
09:55:54 <fizzie> But I don't think that's very widespread.
09:56:14 <oklofok> in like 20 years even puzzlet will be using it
09:57:00 <fizzie> Yes, based on this channel the whole -> thing is a Finnish speciality.
09:57:33 <oklofok> AnMaster has used it too, afaik
09:57:56 <oklofok> aaanyway, just came here to say the mips instruction set could, if i'm not mistaken, easily contain a command with destination both in memory and in the register file without any additional data or control hazards
09:58:01 <fizzie> Personally I use "->" most often when coordinating lunch departures and such with people working nearby. When one person says "->", it means the departure is imminent.
09:58:31 <oklofok> there's no other way to do that
09:59:18 <fizzie> Of course occasionally you need to "take back" a -> with a <- because you forgot something.
10:04:27 <puzzlet> it comes to my mind that Finnish has different grammatical order than English.
10:04:42 <puzzlet> is Finnish Subject-Object-Verb?
10:04:55 <oklofok> it's english with a few words different
10:06:25 <fizzie> Yes, and it's reasonably malleable, since the word inflections remove a bit of the ambiguity.
10:06:56 <fizzie> Wikipedia "Finnish grammar" article "Sentence structure" part sounds reasonably accurate to me.
10:08:57 <fizzie> I seem to remember a popular radio parody/humor show ("Alivaltiosihteeri") once making a joke about that.
10:10:35 <fizzie> They had a segment called "sanajärjestys on vapaa", lit. "word order is free", which was a parody of a real "sana on vapaa" (something like "free talk") program where people could call the radio station and state their opinions on today's topic -- except that in the "sanajärjestys on vapaa" version the words in a sentence were pretty randomly ordered.
10:11:02 <fizzie> They started out quite understandable, but some of the later sentences needed a bit of thinking to parse correctly.
10:11:02 <oklofok> alivaltiosihteeri is the greatest
10:11:11 <oklofok> people should learn finnish just to be able to appreciate it
10:11:36 <oklofok> "the society of freudian slippers"
10:11:58 <oklofok> that was so much fun when i was 12
10:12:17 <oklofok> "society"? i guess it was like association but anyway
10:17:05 <fizzie> For some reason the ones I remember best were the ones I heard on our yearly family summer vacation car trips; there was a car-related segment where they introduced one car that was "a winner of all the crash tests", and promised next week to review "Fiat Lepra, the car whose parts fall off".
10:18:44 <oklofok> winner as in, crashed into most pieces or something?
10:19:23 <fizzie> I think it was something like that, yes.
10:19:44 <fizzie> The door came off when opening it and stuff like that.
10:20:25 <fizzie> I think I have most of those in book form at home (at least 5 or 6 of them) but I'm not sure if I have that one, and in any case it's unavailable right now.
10:26:10 <oklofok> but i left all my non computer related books to my parents when i moved
10:27:05 <fizzie> Well, all my books are in suitcases and cardboard boxes still at the new apartment, so probably couldn't find it even if I were at home.
10:29:59 <oklofok> i still have all my stuff in these big black garbage bags, after moving like half a year ago
10:30:35 <oklofok> this might yield a good system for only keeping what i need if i threw the garbage bags in the garbage every once in a whil
10:30:54 <fizzie> We used over 30 of those bags to pack our stuff, but have managed to unpack almost half of them to closets and such. The rest are more difficult to place, though.
10:33:12 <oklofok> my apartment is 18 square meters, so 30 bags might be a bit overkill
10:33:51 <fizzie> We moved from 42 into 61.5, but it doesn't feel any bigger.
10:34:39 <oklofok> i moved from 50 or something to this, and it doesn't feel any smaller
10:35:00 <fizzie> Apparently the apparent size of an apartment is constant.
10:35:12 <fizzie> (Is there a synonym of "constant" that starts with "ap"?)
10:35:26 <oklofok> i think it just has an upper bound
10:44:40 <AnMaster> <oklofok> AnMaster has used it too, afaik <-- used what?
10:45:52 <oklofok> nah i'm just spanking your brain, i meant "->"
10:46:05 <oklofok> although you use it like "-> target destination"
10:46:29 <oklofok> whereas the correct usage is "-> nothingness"
10:47:36 <fizzie> Yes, the syntax is "reason ->".
10:51:18 <puzzlet> i could use -> as a channel-specific manner, but well ..
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12:51:20 <oklopol> fizzie: btw i like how you continue my weird and incorrect explanations by first saying "yes", and then continuing with the correct information.
12:52:27 <oklopol> okay it was just with "->" and "english with words different", but in case you do it later, you'll know i like it in advance
12:53:21 <tusho> fizzie: Yaknow optbot here?
12:53:22 <optbot> tusho: i feel so bad ^^ i worked 3 days on my solution and your code is smaller and better wahhhh
12:53:26 <tusho> He's using 60% of rutian's memory
12:53:48 <tusho> Any tips? He really can't do anything but load all the logs into memory, there's not a better solution afaik
12:54:45 <fizzie> You could keep just the offsets of each line in memory, and when called to speak, to a seek+read.
12:55:16 <tusho> fizzie: Oh, it's not one file.
12:55:25 <tusho> it's probably about 1000 files, one for each day
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12:56:03 <fizzie> An index to a table of files in addition to the offset, then.
12:56:26 <tusho> 01:55:36 <fizzie> Some people call it "taikanuoli", lit. "magic arrow".
12:56:36 <tusho> paamayim neudatoktayim!
12:58:36 <fizzie> T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM, apparently; though isn't that "::"?
12:58:54 <tusho> It just reminded me
12:58:56 <tusho> 02:46:05 <oklofok> although you use it like "-> target destination"
12:58:57 <tusho> 02:46:29 <oklofok> whereas the correct usage is "-> nothingness"
12:58:57 <tusho> 02:47:36 <fizzie> Yes, the syntax is "reason ->".
12:58:57 <tusho> 02:47:48 <fizzie> (Or just a "->".)
12:59:04 <tusho> AnMaster is just using the POSIX enhanced ->.
13:00:47 <tusho> Its prototype is something like:
13:00:55 <tusho> [reason] '->' [target destination]
13:01:09 <tusho> Though using that as -> is pretty nonstandard.
13:01:16 <tusho> AnMaster should probably call it as _posix_->.
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13:02:21 <fizzie> Whelp, must go to fetch some supports to help in weekendly window-cleaning for moving-out purposes _posix_-> the student housing office.
13:02:30 <fizzie> (Though that was a lie, won't leave for 15 more minutes.)
13:02:35 <tusho> fizzie: Premature optimization, man!
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13:07:40 <oklopol> [reason] -> [destination] \n [reason for lying]
13:07:49 <oklopol> *[reason] -> [destination] \n [(reason for lying)]
13:11:16 <tusho> oklopol: we need to establish a committe for maintaining this immediately
13:11:22 <tusho> <- can be specced too
13:11:41 <oklopol> YES LET'S DO THAT LET'S MAKE IRC MORE FUN :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
13:11:59 <fizzie> <arrow:magic-arrow xmlns:arrow="urn:ieft:params:xml:pi:magicarrow"><arrow:reason lie="false">Time to go, for real this time</arrow:reason><arrow:destination>Housing office</arrow:destination></arrow:magic-arrow>
13:15:41 <tusho> fizzie: I hate you.
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14:31:27 <tusho> oklopol: what should we call the committee, International Taikanuoli Organization?
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14:50:02 <tusho> oklopol: the standards shall be called "reports", it sounds more enterprisey
14:50:39 <tusho> First International Taikanuoli Organization Report on the Conversational Algorithm
14:51:25 <tusho> oerjan: i'm discussing standardizing the finns' "->" (taikanuoli ("magic arrow"))
14:51:30 <tusho> a committee shall be formed.
14:56:56 <oerjan> to sum up my log browsing, i would submit that -> destination is perfectly correct, because finnish has free word order
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15:48:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ...except wouldn't turning faster give a smaller turning circle?.
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18:00:01 <tusho> * (cur) (last) 14:15, 15 September 2008 64.39.133.149 (Talk) (116 bytes) (←Replaced content with 'Someone was here and delerted all this.Ha Ha Ha Ha. Know u cant do ur work. Ha Ha Ha. So now punk bitches.Fuckers') (undo)
18:00:06 <tusho> Someone has not grasped the concept of revert.
18:02:12 <oklopol> if the "(undo)" is what i think it is, that's pretty hilarious, but i don't really know the context
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18:20:13 <tusho> oklopol: just from the page history
18:20:16 <tusho> that's a link to undo it
18:20:22 <tusho> obviously he had no idea that previous revisions were stored
18:20:33 <tusho> and thought he could destroy allll that work by deleting the article
18:20:37 <tusho> and everyone would have to write it all over again
18:22:53 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/
18:22:56 <tusho> talk like a pirate day reskin
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18:34:02 <Mony> i haven't been in here for a while
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19:59:20 <tusho> i am here for a LIMITED TIME ONLY
20:03:36 <oklofok> good because my patience is limited
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20:15:25 <oklofok> i misread your nick, sorry
20:15:39 <oklofok> thought you were that one regular i hate from all my heart
20:15:44 <oklofok> you know who i'm talking about.
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21:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | NO.
22:06:39 <AnMaster_> <oklofok> thought you were that one regular i hate from all my heart <-- oh what one?
22:07:34 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster.
22:07:53 <oklofok> it's good for them to know it
22:08:02 <AnMaster> PSOX author (forgot nick) for example
22:08:02 <oklofok> so they join here a bit less
22:08:32 <AnMaster> then there is the new one with the bloated brainfuck thingy
22:08:32 <oklofok> who else might it be, i wonder? please list a few more
22:08:47 <oklofok> KingOfKarlsruhe had a bloated brainfuck generator
22:08:54 <oklofok> think he's the one i hate?
22:09:06 <oklofok> someone who started with G?
22:09:30 <AnMaster> possibly, I don't remember nicks
22:09:49 <oklofok> he's not really a regular in my standards
22:09:52 <AnMaster> upper case first char, and rounded
22:10:04 <oklofok> try once more, you're getting pretty close
22:10:13 <oklofok> just think, e's so goddamn annoying
22:10:25 <oklofok> hate them from all my heart
22:10:47 <AnMaster> can't remember ever seeing that
22:10:56 <oklofok> what? you've never seen my RAW RAGE
22:11:08 <oklofok> then i guess you haven't been online with them...
22:12:23 <AnMaster> oklofok, you certainly don't act like you hate/dislike me (which tusho do)
22:13:56 <pikhq> Dude who seems to not get Brainfuck at all.
22:13:57 <oklofok> i don't? well i guess you're not the one then... sheesh...
22:14:12 <oklofok> pikhq: what's his nick again?
22:14:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, not get brainfuck, well not getting the idea of brainfuck would fit that new one
22:14:51 <AnMaster> no clue who you are talking about
22:15:14 <oklofok> i see. well i'll just leave you thinking then.
22:15:19 <AnMaster> I coded several brainfuck interpreters, and wrote some programs in it
22:15:40 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
22:15:45 <pikhq> I've probably coded more complex ones.
22:16:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, 5 interpreters at least, not all published, programs maybe 10-15 longer than one page
22:16:32 <AnMaster> none published and no source around these days
22:16:39 <oklopol> i've coded about a hundred bf interps
22:16:48 <AnMaster> since I got bored with brainfuck before this computer
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22:16:50 <pikhq> More complex programs in it.
22:16:53 <oklopol> of course, most were almost the same, coded in python for a specific purpose
22:17:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, well of course you coded more I guess
22:17:08 <pikhq> Do you recall the whole PEBBLE business? :p
22:17:10 <oklopol> i've made an almost-working bf-in-bf
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22:17:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, care to mention the nick in qustion? Is he/she here now? When was he/she here last?
22:18:57 <oklopol> you and your constant stream of questions :)
22:19:57 <oklopol> aaaaanyway, i hate to disappoint you but i'm trolling, something i avoid doing since the term is so gay
22:20:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, well if you don't ask you won't learn :)
22:20:27 <oklopol> i only hate non-organic objects, sometimes to very extreme amounts
22:20:39 <oklopol> also i don't really get mad at people
22:20:59 <oklopol> more like all kinds of machines
22:21:09 <oklopol> computers, bikes, scissors
22:21:36 <AnMaster> not sure if scissors are actually complex enough to be called a machine
22:22:01 <oklopol> and i don't think i've ever actually been mad at scissors, because i don't really use scissors
22:22:06 <oklopol> i do get mad at pens though
22:22:31 <oklopol> i like to think i'm taking the life of the object i'm breaking
22:23:32 <oklopol> btw. i'm finding it a bit hard not to think i'm trolling myself, are you bying this? it's true, but, you know, you don't know me well enough to believe all the weird things about me.
22:25:24 <oklopol> nope. but roll with it i'll catch on
22:26:13 <AnMaster> let me get my camera out, however since it is a high end camera it will take a bit
22:26:44 <KingOfKarlsruhe> oklopol: KingOfKarlsruhe had a bloated brainfuck generator <<--- that was my old faulty version http://paste.pocoo.org/show/85742/
22:26:45 <AnMaster> actually I may have a webcam around
22:27:06 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: sorry to drag you in, but we were having such a fascinating conversation
22:27:21 <oklopol> i'm a bit too tired to be reading code atm
22:30:27 <oklopol> well, off the record i do know you made a better version.
22:30:42 <oklopol> and i knew it right after you made it
22:30:45 <oklopol> because you pasted it here
22:30:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://omploader.org/vcmNn
22:30:54 <oklopol> if that's not the one, don't break my bubble
22:31:36 <oklopol> Expensive Pencil Case With Two Cool Pencillors (tm)
22:31:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, point I was going to get to is that I never got mad at a pen
22:32:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, well one ball-point pen and one mechanical pencil
22:32:27 <oklopol> are you aware that you failing at something your doing on paper, like doing math, is the pen's fault?
22:32:30 <AnMaster> well one other pencil I had since I was 10 or so, still works well
22:32:48 <oklopol> it's not about not working.
22:33:07 <oklopol> i guess it should be, but this isn't a perfect world
22:33:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, so... what about when you do math using a computer?
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00:43:58 <tusho> oklopol and AnMaster
00:44:02 <tusho> AnMaster: fuck you
00:44:08 <tusho> (just my canned responses to those people)
00:46:48 <tusho> AnMaster: just joking by the way
00:46:51 <tusho> i'm not actually angry with you
00:46:53 <tusho> that's too much work
00:46:57 <tusho> just don't say something stupid.
00:51:39 <GregorR> tusho: u sux0rz (but he won't actually read this since he just uses canned responses)
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03:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and there would be no CAR to JESUS CHRIST GET INTO.
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04:49:50 <oerjan> but but there were no cars at the time of Jesus
04:50:02 <oerjan> unless he made one with a miracle
04:50:30 <oerjan> but they didn't put it into the gospels because no one could wrap their mind around the concept
04:53:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | or even partial.
04:53:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | trying 1.5s.
05:02:06 <GregorR> I'm petting my cat, and she's kneading, but she gets such a good grip on the carpet, she's actually dragging herself forward slowly :P
05:05:19 <oerjan> so you will slowly be leaving us, then
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09:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | does it have a good module/function browser? Does it provide good autocompletion? Tooltips which show the types of functions as you type them in? Does it have a good debugger? A refactoring tool? How well is it integrated with QuickCheck?.
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10:17:43 <optbot> Mony: Urgh. Missed some stuff.
10:18:05 <Mony> hum .... optbot ?
10:18:05 <optbot> Mony: if you have an interpreter, you can do all sorts of neat stuff
10:18:15 <Mony> that's right ^^
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12:46:30 <tusho> http://www.piratejesus.com/nerdcore/nerdcore017.gif ahahahahahhaha
12:55:43 <tusho> written by the guy who made that Chronotron time travel game
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15:05:26 <optbot> Mony: Just change the name to COMPLICATED and you've got an esoteric programming language :-)
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15:45:11 <tusho> need some help with your sql query in a min
15:45:18 <ais523> tusho: I didn't even realise there was a memoserv on here...
15:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i wasn't making any argument so there was nothing i could specify.
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17:45:36 <AnMaster> hm this is undefined in C right:
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17:45:47 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, modifies i twice between sequence points
17:46:15 <ais523> ah, OK, I wondered what on earth you were trying to write therer
17:47:09 <AnMaster> something like: "What does this code do in C: *(i++) == *(i++);" 1) blah 2) blah 3) It is undefined 4) blah
17:47:23 <AnMaster> now if you can come up with hilarious stuff for the other 3 answers I would like to know
17:47:57 <ais523> well, I imagine much hilarity could ensue if i were a macro
17:48:45 <ais523> imagine #define i (char*)0x05),(intptr
17:48:52 <ais523> on a machine with memory-mapped addresses
17:49:19 <AnMaster> ais523, nah assume is is char *i;
17:49:26 <AnMaster> and is set before at some point
17:49:47 <ais523> most compilers will increment i by either 1 or 2 given that code
17:50:01 <ais523> gcc will error out on it if given the right settings
17:50:28 <ais523> also, it's likely to return false if i increments by 2 and the two characters in question are different, could be either true or false but more likely true if i increments by 1
17:50:42 <ais523> however this is just based on what compilers normally do in practice, not on what they could do
17:53:28 <ais523> heh, I just tried it in gcc and it optimised it into 1; because I never used the value of i after that
17:53:33 <ais523> let me make my test program more interesting...
17:55:26 <AnMaster> well I already made up the bogus answers
17:57:06 <AnMaster> btw does php really not have either tuples or structs?
17:58:27 <ais523> AnMaster: well what gcc-bf does is equivalent to (i+=2,1)
17:58:38 <ais523> it seems that it increments i twice because there are two i++s in it
17:58:50 <ais523> but because the expression on each side of the == is the same it does common subexpression elimination
17:59:00 <ais523> and decides that the two sides are always the same
17:59:22 <ais523> still, just goes to show that you can't guarantee any sensible behaviour from code like taht
18:00:15 * ais523 is annoyed that so much stuff assumes 32-bit int nowadays
18:00:39 <ais523> gcc spends ages zero-extending the argument to putchar from char to int
18:01:10 <ais523> also the algorithm it uses is something like typedef char int[4]; int i; i[0]=c; i[1]=0; i[2]=i[1]; i[3]=i[2];
18:01:14 <ais523> which does not translate well into brainfuck
18:01:36 <ais523> as in BF register=constant is a lot easier than register=register
18:01:55 <pikhq> putchar has been putchar(int) for, well, ever...
18:01:59 <ais523> maybe there's some setting somewhere to influence what code it generates
18:02:15 <ais523> pikhq: I'm fine with that, just not fine with people assuming 32-bit int when 16 is perfectly allowed by the standard
18:02:24 <ais523> that would double the speed of all my calls to putchar...
18:03:08 <ais523> anyway, putchar's slow enough anyway due to stdio overhead
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18:03:27 <ais523> probably I'll implement __builtin_fastputchar and __builtin_fastgetchar that just map to . and , directly
18:03:37 <ais523> so people can avoid using stdio in short programs and produce considerably shorter output
18:03:53 <AnMaster> ais523, will it be possible to cross compile gcc to brainfuck some day?
18:03:59 <AnMaster> that is compile gcc itself with gcc-bf
18:04:11 <ais523> there are various obstacles to doing that
18:04:13 <AnMaster> and how much disk space would you need?
18:04:18 <ais523> the main one being that the result wouldn't run even on a supercomputer
18:04:30 <ais523> and gcc needs more than 16MB of memory to run, normally
18:04:42 <ais523> that's another big problem, I'd need to make bigger pointers
18:05:03 <ais523> not very, but it would make the marker code even more inefficient than it already is
18:05:17 <ais523> it's bad enough that calculating *i is O(n) in the value of i
18:05:28 <ais523> something which doesn't even make sense in the context of pointers in normal C
18:05:57 <ais523> AnMaster: that's O(n^2) in i+a
18:06:11 <ais523> however if i points somewhere on the stack it's a lot faster
18:06:22 <ais523> pointers to auto variables can be accessed faster than pointers to heap if you have a big heap
18:06:42 <ais523> and yes, brainfuck is really bad at pointers, yet gcc seems to think they're fast
18:06:57 <ais523> I need to get gcc to stop all those backwards optimisations
18:07:27 <ais523> like optimising x*=10; into {int a, b; a=x; b=x<<3; x+=a; x+=b;}
18:07:41 <ais523> the first is quite a lot better in brainfuck with char x
18:07:43 <AnMaster> ais523, so for gcc-bf -O0 is better than -O3?
18:07:59 <ais523> -Os is an interesting one, I might try that
18:08:06 <ais523> but things like register variables speed things up a lot
18:08:17 <ais523> maybe I should look at all the optimisations individually to see if they help
18:08:26 <ais523> and redefine -O1, -O2 and -O3 accordingly
18:08:37 <ais523> you're not supposed to do that, by the way
18:08:44 <ais523> but I may as well if it leads to better code
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18:08:46 <AnMaster> ais523, about register variables... doesn't GCC handle that itself? and ignore the register keyword?
18:08:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on the optimisation level
18:08:57 <ais523> yes at -O2 up, I think
18:09:00 <Deewiant> GCC does that kind of optimization at a higher level than at machine code generation level? O_o
18:09:14 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, and IMO it shouldn't, at least in gcc-bf
18:09:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no one said GCC had a clean architecture
18:09:22 <ais523> probably it does it at the RTL level
18:09:27 <AnMaster> though gcc-bf is certainly not a normal case
18:09:36 <ais523> in which case I could get round it by wrapping multiplications in an unspec, but that's kind-of hacky
18:09:50 <ais523> still, I've done all sorts of other things in my code to hack around limitations in gcc
18:09:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I've heard it doesn't, doesn't mean I can't be surprised at that anyway :-P
18:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: something that gcc doesn't know about but can manipulate
18:10:34 <ais523> the archetypal example would be an __asm__ statement
18:10:41 <ais523> where gcc has no clue what the asm does, but can move it around anyway
18:10:54 <ais523> except that ironically __asm__ isn't an unspec, it's something else that acts similarly
18:11:10 <AnMaster> ais523, um what about the "automatic select registers to use" feature of __asm__ in gcc
18:11:33 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's reasonably irrelevant here though
18:11:37 <ais523> an unspec can operate on pseudos
18:11:48 <ais523> which are things which will eventually go into registers, just gcc hasn't decided which one yet
18:11:57 <ais523> anyway, an example of ridiculous hackiness: (match_test "GET_MODE(op) == mode || GET_MODE(op) == VOIDmode))) || (((0")
18:12:43 <ais523> AnMaster: the bit inside the quotes is C
18:12:46 <ais523> the bit outside is almost lisp
18:12:58 <AnMaster> and the bit inside is unbalanced
18:13:04 <ais523> yes, that's what I was getting at
18:13:16 <AnMaster> well I don't know the context of that
18:13:16 <ais523> the unbalancing being to work around a bug which makes it impossible to write your own predicates that match constants
18:13:32 <ais523> because in gcc constants don't have data types
18:13:46 <ais523> just whether they're integers or floating points
18:13:50 <AnMaster> isn't there some famous quote about complex C projects and clisp interpreters
18:14:10 <ais523> so everywhere where you want to compare data-types, you have to special-case constants
18:14:15 <ais523> they forgot to so I had to do it by hand
18:14:24 <ais523> and yes, gcc's .md files are written in a sexp-based language
18:14:34 <ais523> which is basically lisp expressions without any sort of flow control
18:14:56 <AnMaster> yes I know what sexp are. I like that as a generic data format
18:15:18 <ais523> also it's basically like writing a polyglot as the .md files are compiled into two stages of the program
18:15:28 <AnMaster> for example, the game supertux use sexp for all it's levels, and other non-binary data files (that is, everthing except images and sounds)
18:15:30 <ais523> one that converts GIMPLE to RTL, one that converts RTL to asm
18:16:01 <ais523> so you have to write code that works in both directions
18:17:41 <AnMaster> btw, does PHP really lack both tuples and structs?
18:17:48 <ais523> I don't know PHP, really
18:17:51 <ais523> but I wouldn't be surprised
18:17:56 <ais523> it has objects and arrays
18:18:00 <ais523> and objects can be used as structs
18:18:09 <AnMaster> well arrays sure, but objects aren't POD
18:19:10 <AnMaster> I want an array of tuples really
18:19:21 <ais523> can't you use an array as a tuple?
18:19:35 <ais523> seeing as in PHP you can index arrays with arbitrary objects
18:19:42 <AnMaster> well nice except the tuple contains one nested array
18:19:42 <ais523> they work sort-of like hashes
18:20:00 <ais523> AnMaster: it's PHP, it's messy whatever you do
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19:03:21 <AnMaster> off topic: how do I create an iso image from a cd, using command line tools.
19:03:55 <AnMaster> well actually a dvd in this case.
19:04:04 <AnMaster> what is a good block size for dd then?
19:04:15 <olsner> some large size, doesn't matter much
19:04:32 <AnMaster> olsner, it will handle when the disk doesn't match in block size right?
19:05:04 <olsner> you could probably just as well use cat if you wanted to
19:05:16 <ais523> actually, probably not cp
19:05:22 <ais523> as that doesn't copy the content of devices by default
19:05:25 <ais523> but the devices themselves
19:05:56 <AnMaster> hm, also I don't have enough free disk space on any computer with a dvd reader, I guess I'll use nfs
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19:26:09 <tusho> ais523 is STILL HERE
19:26:17 <tusho> i forgot all about that, and I need major SQL help still, damn
19:26:28 <ais523> tusho: they fixed the door
19:26:48 <tusho> go so I can be annoyed that you're not here to fix the problem
19:26:50 <tusho> and then come back tomorrow
19:26:56 <tusho> and continually remind me of your prescence
19:27:00 <tusho> so that I have time to get the help I need
19:27:15 <ais523> I may go soon, just because I need something to drink
19:27:23 <ais523> just getting caught up with this week's Agora stuff first
19:28:52 <ais523> AnMaster: the door to the building in which my normal Internet connection is
19:29:02 <AnMaster> ais523, ah what was the issue with it?
19:29:02 <tusho> i thought you meant to #esoteric
19:29:04 <ais523> I had problems connecting for ages because the door was broken and I couldn't get in
19:29:15 <ais523> AnMaster: they had to lock it by hand because it kept opening in the middle of the night
19:29:17 <ais523> and I didn't have a key
19:29:21 <tusho> ais523: have a drink of SQL
19:29:45 <AnMaster> ais523, so you connected from elsewhere?
19:30:02 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes gcc-bf btw? Solved the divide 64-bit ints but yet?
19:30:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I've been working on something else completely unrelated to esoprogramming
19:30:29 <ais523> deadline coming up in real life and none of the other people who are supposed to be helping me have noticed, it seems
19:30:33 <ais523> or even responded to my emails about it
19:30:43 <AnMaster> I know the freebsd kernel source contains an efficient (for normal processors) implementation of signed and unsigned quad word divide
19:30:51 <tusho> ais523: that made me laugh
19:31:04 <tusho> but, not offensively
19:31:11 <ais523> BF efficiency follows completely different rules to normal processor efficiency
19:31:12 <tusho> but it made me laugh for an unrelated reason
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19:38:28 <oerjan> tusho: SQL totally sounds like an obscure energy drink. maybe it is.
19:38:50 <tusho> it uses I.N.D.E.X.E.s for that extra boost
19:38:56 <ais523> anyway, I'm zooming off for a bit
19:38:57 <tusho> there are some health concerns (makes you fat), but meh
19:39:03 <ais523> if you shout loudly enough now I'll come back a bit later though
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19:39:29 <oerjan> apparently too obscure to have a wikipedia page ;)
19:40:14 <oerjan> is he using the echo to find his way back?
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19:41:43 <tusho> did they delete his page?!
19:43:25 <AnMaster> tusho, OS X question: in OS X, how do you eject an unmounted CD. say I unmounted it using umount as root in a terminal
19:43:30 * oerjan wonders why Buck Godot doesn't update regularly when Girl Genius does
19:43:51 <oerjan> i mean the frequency is regular but not the time of day
19:44:00 <tusho> the eject button on the keyboard. if your keyboard is stupid, try the F12 key.
19:44:18 <tusho> lemme remember what it was for retarded keyboards :D
19:44:51 <tusho> AnMaster: you have to hold it down possibly?
19:44:54 <tusho> just tapping it doesn't work
19:45:00 <tusho> to avoid inadvertently ejecting
19:45:03 <AnMaster> tusho, yes and the "eject" symbol showed up on screen
19:45:22 <tusho> the only other thing i know then is 'drutil tray eject' in a terminal
19:45:34 <tusho> if that fails, i guess you'll have to re-mount it and i don't know why any of these would fail
19:46:00 <AnMaster> tusho, how would you remount it under /Volumes, I get a "permission denied" as root
19:46:31 <tusho> AnMaster: put the disc back in?
19:46:48 <tusho> anyway, what does mount say?
19:46:50 <tusho> it shouldn't say that
19:47:07 <tusho> mount should work fine
19:47:11 <AnMaster> tusho, "mount: Permission denied"
19:47:18 <tusho> AnMaster: yeah, but how did you call it
19:48:10 <AnMaster> mount -o nodev,nosuid,read-only /dev/disk1s3 "/Volumes/Mac OS X Install Disc 1"
19:48:19 <tusho> AnMaster: with sudo in front of it?
19:48:39 <AnMaster> tusho, no since I had used sudo su - 3 lines above
19:48:55 <AnMaster> didn't think you would need sudo when you were in a root shell
19:49:01 <tusho> AnMaster: did you mkdir /Volumes/Mac OS X Install Disc 1?
19:49:15 <tusho> mount for me has always required you mkdir the target dir...
19:49:15 <AnMaster> tusho, it still exist from when I ran unmount
19:49:30 <tusho> then...that should work perfectly
19:49:45 <tusho> AnMaster: try rmdiring it and mkdiring it, just in case
19:49:52 <tusho> other than that...shrug, your machine is crazy
19:50:13 <tusho> surely it remounted when you plugged the disc back in though
19:50:22 <AnMaster> tusho, apple hardware test (booting cd with d pressed) reports no errors
19:50:32 <tusho> surely it remounted when you put the disc back in though
19:51:08 <AnMaster> tusho, well issue was I couldn't eject it, but drutil worked and yes it remounted on insert
19:51:21 <AnMaster> don't you think I tried to mount it again before I asked you in the first place?
19:51:34 <tusho> if it remounted on insert ... why do you need to mount it
19:51:54 <AnMaster> tusho, well I was just curious there. But thanks for that drutil line
19:52:08 <tusho> yeah, well, closed as WFM
19:53:29 <AnMaster> tusho, also the "drutil tray" seems strange to me
19:53:51 <tusho> stop being so silly :P
19:54:09 <tusho> oh and drutil is named as such because it uses the DiscRecording framework to interact with the drive
19:54:19 <tusho> Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list,
19:54:24 <tusho> Info, status and tray are now verbs.
19:54:41 <AnMaster> I thought it was maybe "DRiveUtil"
19:54:48 <tusho> that would make sense too :P
19:54:58 <tusho> perhaps it's Doctor Utility
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20:02:52 <AnMaster> tusho, also verbs: "subchannel" "version" "cdtext"
20:02:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:03:08 <tusho> AnMaster: Shut up or I'll subchannel you
20:03:40 <AnMaster> that actually sounds as it make sense on irc
20:03:43 <ais523> oh dear, has an argument grown up while I've been missing?
20:03:45 <ais523> wow, I haven't logread for months
20:03:47 <ais523> I used to logread all the time...
20:03:58 <AnMaster> ais523, no we are *for once* in agreement
20:04:09 <AnMaster> which is extremely unlikely relly
20:04:39 <ais523> oerjan: what are you disagreeing about, then?
20:04:44 <ais523> I could do with some context, really
20:04:55 <AnMaster> <tusho> oh and drutil is named as such because it uses the DiscRecording framework to interact with the drive
20:04:55 <AnMaster> <tusho> Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list,
20:04:55 <AnMaster> <tusho> Info, status and tray are now verbs.
20:04:59 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> tusho, also verbs: "subchannel" "version" "cdtext"
20:05:18 <oerjan> that's such a load of trash!
20:06:25 <AnMaster> Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list, status, and tray.
20:06:25 <AnMaster> The rest of the verbs are: bulkerase, cdtext, discinfo, dumpiso, dumpudf, filename, getconfig, poll, subchannel, trackinfo, and version.
20:06:40 <ais523> tusho: in INTERCAL "NEXT" is a verb
20:06:45 <AnMaster> obviously there are no other verbs
20:06:46 <ais523> people talk about "NEXTING" and so on
20:06:54 <ais523> this caused me issues translating it into Latin, though
20:07:17 <AnMaster> the Apple made man page (as opposed to "a self made man [page]") states so
20:07:48 <oerjan> so what's NEXT in latin?
20:08:35 <ais523> which I formed into an infinitive as DEINDERE
20:08:41 <ais523> and from there the gerundive as DEINDENDUM
20:08:51 <ais523> probably the best that can be done
20:11:19 <ais523> trying to remember now
20:11:47 <ais523> in INTERCAL English uses gerunds, which makes gramattical sense, but the Latin version uses gerundives probably because someone mistranslated years ago
20:12:15 <ais523> let's see... a latin gerundive like "deindendum" translates best into English as "having/needing/wanting to be nexted"
20:12:33 <oerjan> well they have some common uses iirc
20:12:46 <ais523> the Hogwarts motto is a good example
20:12:57 <ais523> "draco dormiens numquam tittilandus [est]"
20:13:07 <oerjan> ais523: um that's a different use
20:13:16 <ais523> "It is never the case that a dragon is needing to be tickled", more or less literally
20:13:24 <ais523> and so in my view it's the same case, pretty much
20:13:33 <ais523> oerjan: what do you think the difference is?
20:14:50 <oerjan> there's a different use of the gerundium, similar to -ing in english
20:15:01 <ais523> oerjan: that's just the pure gerund IIRC
20:15:08 <ais523> which would be "deindens" in this case, meaning "nexting"
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20:15:20 <ais523> that's the one that ought to be used in INTERCAL but isn't
20:15:21 <oerjan> english -ing has two different meanings
20:15:29 <ais523> "nexting" as in "the act of nexting"
20:15:34 <ais523> the noun version of -ing
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20:15:44 <ais523> that's gerund in both English and Latin
20:15:53 <ais523> Latin has gerundive, too, which doesn't correspond directly to anything in English
20:16:09 <ais523> wait, deindens isn't the gerund, is it
20:16:12 <ais523> that's the other sort of -ing
20:16:13 <oerjan> yes but iirc those have the same form in latin, with -ndum
20:16:20 <ais523> ah, that's why I was confused
20:16:30 <ais523> Hogwarts motto is definitely gerundive not gerund though
20:17:06 <ais523> "A sleeping dragon is never tickling" is nonsense semantically in English, and gramatically in Latin as participles are never used like that in Latin and a gerund would be a noun not an adjective
20:17:28 <ais523> AnMaster: "programming", referring to the noun, for instance
20:17:41 <ais523> "I am programming" is a participle, whereas "Programming is my favourite subject" is a gerund
20:17:48 <ais523> English uses -ing for two different things and confuses the issue
20:17:52 <oerjan> ais523: the hogwarts use is definitely the "needing to be" use
20:18:04 <ais523> "needing" isn't exactly the right word
20:18:14 <ais523> but it's enough to get the sense of the translation
20:18:23 <oklopol> actually, i am programming in the gerund sense.
20:18:24 <ais523> AnMaster: no, Latin is simple, English is complex
20:18:26 <AnMaster> and in Swedish we don't even have a -ing form really.
20:18:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: you have -ande, don't you?
20:18:50 <ais523> oklopol: for pretty much everyone in this channel, I'd disagree, but for you, that's perfect
20:19:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes, but we don't use it for "I am programming", we use the "present tense" form then
20:19:12 <AnMaster> not sure if that is the right English name for it
20:19:12 <ais523> tusho: ping, by the way
20:19:15 <ais523> because you asked me to
20:19:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's the two meanings english confuses
20:19:32 <ais523> AnMaster: pretty much only English uses forms of "is" with a participle
20:19:34 <oklopol> finnish does it that way too
20:19:39 <ais523> it can be expressed in many other languages but they never use it
20:19:50 <oklopol> but both finnish and swedish have the awkwards -ing form too
20:19:53 <oerjan> no, the progressive is a third thing, really
20:20:08 <ais523> like Latin, for instance, "deindens sum" makes sense, sort of, but is so anti-idiomatic that they never used it
20:20:13 <AnMaster> argh, I don't even know the terminology for this in English
20:20:21 <AnMaster> I can manage it fine *in Swedish* I think
20:20:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: progressive is the am -ing thing
20:20:34 <oklopol> and it seems ais523 has generalized my point and thus owned me quite bad.
20:20:49 <oklopol> i'll go read some more math ->
20:20:51 <ais523> well, except that deindere isn't actually a verb, because INTERCAL doesn't date back to ancient Roman times
20:20:55 <AnMaster> well what is the "present tense" then in English?
20:21:13 <ais523> that's pretty rarely used in conversation though
20:21:18 <AnMaster> ais523, is present tense the right word?
20:21:20 <ais523> or alternatively "I am programming"
20:21:28 <AnMaster> well that is what we would use instead of -ing in Swedish
20:21:32 <ais523> "I am programming" would be the most common way to do it, that's the progressive active
20:21:42 <ais523> "I program" would be most commonly used for speech acts
20:21:47 <AnMaster> we wouldn't use our rarely used -ande form that oerjan mentioned
20:22:07 <ais523> or the start of formal complainy letters: "I write to you because I am very upset about the way you have treated my computer..."
20:22:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well we would use it informally too, our -ing form is very seldom used
20:22:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: in swedish and norwegian i guess that's used only for forming adjectives, not as a part of verb tenses
20:22:48 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, as I said English is unusual in this respect
20:22:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes that is a use for it
20:22:57 <ais523> confuses foreigners quite a lot until they get used to it
20:23:12 <oklopol> ithkuil uses both quite a lot
20:23:39 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway, the gerundive is pretty useful, it's annoying not having it in English, it's sort of the opposite of the participle
20:24:07 <oklopol> AnMaster: itkuil is a conlang
20:24:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: a conlang i presume
20:24:11 <ais523> "I am programming", in English, but "Feather is correct-to-program", in Latin literally translated to English
20:24:16 <AnMaster> also I don't think we have gerundive in Swdish
20:24:19 <ais523> AnMaster: a participle is an adjective made from a verb
20:24:20 <oklopol> one with a reputation of being so hard there's no use trying to learn it
20:24:48 <ais523> strangely using them in English is non-idiomatic
20:24:52 <oklopol> it's hard in that you need to master all of its aspects before being able to say the simplest thing
20:24:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think we use the infinitive for the other -ing use
20:25:16 <ais523> "The running policeman shouted at the burglar" is about the closest I can get to an idiomatic uses of a participle
20:25:24 <ais523> which isn't part of a verb phrase like "I am running"
20:25:41 <oklopol> there are no words, just kinda word bodies consisting of two consonants; you create words by inserting the details of how you want to use those bodies to make the actual objects
20:25:47 <ais523> that's a present active participle, Latin has past passive participles and sometimes past active participles too
20:25:58 <oerjan> (mind you not _everything_ is the same in Norwegian and Swedish. they use -st passive much more than us i think)
20:26:17 <oklopol> for instance sea, ocean, lake, river, rain and such would probably just be the "water" word body, with a lot of infliction
20:26:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, I can think stuff like "Programmerandets skönhet" would be plausible but sound rather strange
20:26:31 <oklopol> everyone should learn it, hkuil, i mean
20:26:36 <AnMaster> rather I would use "skönheten i programmering" or something like that
20:26:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: heh that wouldn't even be possible in norwegian, another difference
20:27:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, err the noun you mean?
20:27:41 <oerjan> -ende is purely present participle, and also completely uninflectable
20:27:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, also doesn't Norwegian come in two flavours?
20:28:13 <oerjan> well yeah it would -ande in Nynorsk
20:28:16 <AnMaster> not sure what the real difference is
20:28:29 <oerjan> Bokml is the most common
20:28:38 <ais523> bokmal is the one that non-Norwegians come across most often
20:28:48 <oerjan> in fact Nynorsk is probably closer to swedish on this point
20:29:07 <ais523> at least, I've heard of them both but never seen Nynorsk in a language list but Bokmal crops up all the time
20:29:35 <oerjan> ais523: its abbreviation is nn iirc
20:29:52 <ais523> nb for bokmal, they changed it from no pretty recently IIRC
20:30:01 <ais523> nn is presumably nynorsk
20:30:11 <oerjan> and you _do_ sometimes see it in wikipedia's left panel
20:31:06 <ais523> AnMaster: why are there both American and British English?
20:31:17 <AnMaster> tusho, how do you set the "package" property on a directory in OS X using command line
20:31:52 <AnMaster> ais523, because there are two different countries, and until the last 100 years or so travel between them was not something you did easily
20:32:06 <AnMaster> so they took separate paths in the "evolution" of the language
20:32:22 <ais523> well, I can imagine the same happening to two dialects of Norwegian until they became two different languages
20:32:31 <AnMaster> but Norway is one rather small country
20:32:50 <oerjan> norway was under denmark.
20:32:54 <AnMaster> ais523, Nynorsk literally means "New Norse"
20:33:35 <oerjan> until then, the official language in norway was danish. obviously we wanted to change that.
20:33:49 <oklopol> AnMaster: new means absolutely nothing in a name.
20:33:49 <AnMaster> but what was wrong with Bokmål?
20:34:06 <oklopol> except that the thing was new when it was born... which is true of quite a lot of things.
20:34:28 <oerjan> bokml was created by gradually norwegianizing the danish spoken in the capital and cities
20:34:44 <oerjan> an upper class dialect
20:34:52 <oerjan> nynorsk on the other hand
20:35:05 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
20:35:43 <oerjan> was created by a linguist (Ivar Aasen) collecting samples from various norwegian dialects, and creating a new written language out of it (with some norse inspiration too, i think)
20:35:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes. Even worse was Microsoft advertising "new NT technology" in one of their adverts, which is doubly redundant
20:36:27 <oerjan> thus in the beginning Nynorsk was more obviously "Norwegian" i guess.
20:36:49 <oerjan> while Bokml had the support of the upper classes
20:37:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, yet Bokmål (Book language???????) "won"?
20:37:41 <oerjan> nynorsk grew quickly, and somewhere around 1950 was used in about 50% of municipalities i think
20:37:58 <oerjan> then, came television.
20:38:22 <ais523> well I know that when television came in the UK the BBC managed to basically standardise English by themselves
20:38:27 <ais523> presumably something similar happened in Norway
20:38:35 <oerjan> mostly sent from Oslo, where the language was bokml-like
20:38:45 <oerjan> that's what i think happened in norway too
20:39:26 <AnMaster> why didn't Radio have this effect?
20:39:29 <oerjan> television is required to have a part Nynorsk, but only 25%, and they apparently cheat by including actual dialects in it, or they did
20:39:38 <oerjan> well maybe radio did too
20:39:59 <oerjan> also i am telling this from somewhat vague impression
20:40:24 <oerjan> not to mention (or i just did) the Samnorsk disaster of that age
20:40:59 <oerjan> they attempted to _merge_ nynorsk and bokml, by using only the common forms
20:41:16 <oerjan> the result was .. ugly, from both points of view
20:42:51 <oerjan> there were reports of parents correcting their children's school books :D
20:42:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, also what do you mean with including "actual dialects"
20:43:38 <oerjan> well bokml and nynorsk are both in principle written forms. this does not prevent them from having somewhat standardized pronunciation
20:44:00 <oerjan> which is used by official newscasters and such
20:44:20 <oerjan> (also, some people speak natively quite close to bokml, and maybe a few to nynorsk)
20:44:44 <ais523> this is a great channel, where else could I get up-to-the minute interesting information about Norwegian dialects that actually developed from something ontopic?
20:45:28 <oerjan> but in norway, spoken dialects have an unusually high prestige, and so many people _don't_ standardize when they speak
20:45:36 <oerjan> (I don't, for example)
20:45:59 <oerjan> this developed from the 60's or so, i think
20:46:44 <oerjan> and the TV channels included those that did this in their "Nynorsk" quota, for a while
20:47:00 <oerjan> (well there was just one channel really until around 1980)
20:47:17 <oerjan> which meant nynorsk itself was marginalized even further
20:47:18 <oklopol> isn't mål goal in both swedish and norwegian
20:48:01 <oerjan> not sure if there's any relation between the meanings
20:49:03 <oerjan> i think maybe it also means "paint" in swedish? (norw. "mal")
20:49:22 <oerjan> actually that's nynorsk too
20:50:07 <ais523> heh, in Latin "latus" means both "having been carried" and "wide", you can get all sorts of weird combinations like that
20:51:16 <oerjan> ferre, tuli, latus. that's one weird verb.
20:51:53 <ais523> at least the "ferro" and "ferre" forms almost form a pattern
20:52:23 <ais523> although to fit with other verbs it should really be ferrere not ferre
20:53:17 <oklopol> how well do you ppl know latin?
20:53:48 * oerjan read a grammar 20 years ago. impressive memory, really.
20:54:00 <oerjan> i mean even i am impressed
20:54:18 <oklopol> i remember things from 20 years back too
20:54:19 <oerjan> few actual words though
20:54:44 <ais523> grammar sticks in your mind, vocab I've forgotten most of really
20:55:03 <ais523> although English is sufficiently based on Latin that most Latin words correspond to some English word
20:55:05 <oerjan> ais523: more like ferere, except dropping the middle -e- all over the place iirc
20:55:07 <ais523> just not normally the most common one
20:55:09 <oklopol> it was a few weeks after conception, i was checking out the wall of the uterus
20:55:46 <ais523> also a baby's vision is in black and white for the first few days
20:55:55 <ais523> the rods are ready immediately but the cones take some time
20:56:06 <oklopol> i've had the same experience with grammar, i can imagine being able to perfectly learn a language in a few weeks, apart from the vocab
20:56:06 <oerjan> ais523: [citation needed] :D
20:56:26 <ais523> oerjan: this is me remembering it from somewhere, not sure where, so not sure if it was a reliable source or not
20:56:45 <ais523> there are lots of random data I remember from years back, most of which are true by chance but many of which are likely complete nonsense, or urban legends
20:56:53 <ais523> so take that with 0.294 of a pinch of salt
20:57:07 <oerjan> oklopol: maybe that's something we esolangers have in common
20:57:11 <oklopol> is that a volume unit joke, ais?
20:58:01 <ais523> oklopol: yes, also I'm poking fun at the whole pinch of salt metaphor
20:58:12 <oklopol> well usually i can just take a few pages of data from the grammar book, and summarize them in a more general rule
20:58:27 <oklopol> and since these are usually pretty simple concepts, it's not like you can forget them
20:58:41 <ais523> Latin grammar is pretty regular, except when it isn't
20:58:47 <ais523> but lots more regular than English, anyway
20:59:05 <ais523> apparently Hungarian has an even more regular grammar, but I would probably never be bothered to learn the vocab
20:59:14 <oklopol> english has no grammar! it just has sentences, and you have to memorize them
20:59:34 * ais523 laughs out loud in real life
20:59:37 <oklopol> try lojban, it's fun and nice :-)
20:59:42 <ais523> luckily there's nobody to hear me and throw me out this time
20:59:52 <ais523> like there often is when people in #esoteric make me laugh a lot
21:00:07 <oklopol> have you been thrown out? :P
21:00:52 <ais523> not quite, although I got a warning once
21:01:02 <ais523> and some funny looks more than once
21:01:45 <ais523> at the moment though I'm on my own in an empty lab
21:01:51 <oklopol> we have a pretty fun course at the uni, the project is to code a texas hold'em ai, and there's a tournament at the end of the period
21:01:51 <ais523> even have music blaring as nobody else is here
21:02:06 <ais523> and all the lights in the building have turned themselves off due to nobody being around
21:02:11 <ais523> apart from the ones in here
21:02:17 <oerjan> oklopol: are there money prices? :D
21:02:41 <oklopol> sadly no, and since i don't think the actual playing part is part of the grade, many will just make a randomizing ai
21:03:19 <oklopol> it's actually about distributed computing, basically the grade is for getting java to connect to the server and to coordinate the ai threads :)
21:03:39 <oklopol> you have multiple ai's that can cheat by reading each other's data
21:03:51 <oklopol> so it's really strategically quite different from normal texas hold'em
21:04:11 <oklopol> not that it matters of course, since i doubt i'll need anything that sophisticated to beat everyone to the ground
21:04:26 <oklopol> oerjan: not everyone's data
21:04:48 <oklopol> you have a few agents, the opponents have a few agents, and your agents are kinda allies.
21:05:48 <oklopol> this was just a warning, as in 1.5 months i shall disconnect from irc forever in case i lose
21:06:10 <oklopol> or not, but you know, i'll change my nick to okloser or something, and cry for a few days
21:06:54 <oerjan> hah you're just an okloposer
21:11:39 <ais523> oklopol: your multithreaded networked Java assignment is a lot more interesting than ours
21:11:50 <ais523> I had to create a multiplayer networked Snakes and Ladders game
21:11:56 <ais523> with a server and any number of clients connecting to it
21:12:18 <ais523> it's probably one of the most pointless projects ever, given that Snakes and Ladders has no inputs from the user so all players could do was click a button whenever it was their turn
21:12:45 <oklopol> yeah, snakes and latters make no sense
21:12:56 <oklopol> but we actually implement it on another course.
21:13:03 <oklopol> but that's more about the gui
21:13:04 <ais523> anyway, I overengineered it in protest
21:13:23 <oklopol> i had to make a poker hand class for one of the introductory courses
21:13:37 <ais523> server automatically quitting at the right moment, handling disconnections and players quitting gracefully, could make multiple attempts to connect if you screwed up the parameters first time, and so on
21:13:42 <oklopol> so i made a full-blown poker game
21:13:43 * ais523 often overengineers things in protest
21:14:10 <oklopol> of course it was not that complicated, but as what i was supposed to do was basically a 2-tuple, it was something.
21:14:18 <fizzie> I just write things in brainfuck in protest.
21:14:34 <ais523> oerjan: we had to use a pre-provided class for the actual gameplay itself
21:14:40 <ais523> which drew snakes-and-ladders boards
21:14:46 <ais523> and just interface to it
21:15:02 <ais523> source code for it wasn't provided either, just the compiled version
21:15:17 <ais523> so I had to do a bit of reverse-engineering to get it working in my AWT program, as it was Swing itself
21:15:24 <ais523> figuring out what sort of wrappers it needed
21:15:30 <oklopol> you should've reverse-engineered what it output to the screen, and rerender it to 3d
21:15:38 <fizzie> For the Scheme "introduction to programming" course one of the weekly assignments was "draw something including some text and an ellipse" (using the provided "xdraw" library/app); a friend wrote a raytracer for that.
21:15:44 * ais523 dislikes Swing as they don't see why Java should force their GUI on users rather than the one they're used to
21:15:53 <AnMaster> ais523, for example "make a php page that implements a quiz with three 4-possible-answers questions". Pointless IMO. So I made a extensible quiz engine that can handle any amount of predefined questions with any amount of answers
21:16:16 <fizzie> (And received 0 points, I think, since the metacircular evaluator used by the automatical-grading-bot was so slow it didn't finish rendering the scene.)
21:16:32 <ais523> probably everyone in here overengineers the answers to stupid programming questions
21:16:35 <ais523> tusho: what about you?
21:16:39 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the diff between Swing and AWT?
21:16:57 <ais523> AnMaster: AWT uses the platform's widgets, Swing is almost an OS of its own
21:17:06 <ais523> with rendering the entire window, and everything
21:17:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, automated grading bot. Ugh
21:17:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I hope he/she talked to the teacher about that!
21:17:49 <AnMaster> ais523, and well I prefer using native widgets
21:18:14 <oklopol> ais523: tusho doesn't have assignments
21:18:16 <ais523> that's why I used AWT, whereas everyone else used Swing because it was easier to interface with the teacher's code and what I was taught
21:18:18 <AnMaster> ais523, though arguably, on Linux "native" widgets aren't well defined
21:18:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's the "introduction to programming" course with gazillion students, and with N weekly programming assigments I don't think the department has the resources to manually grade them; at least the final "programming project" part was looked at by a human.
21:18:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I'd argue on my desktop that happens to be KDE
21:18:35 * ais523 remembers another teacher, where we both spent most of the lessons complaining about how stupid the syllabus was
21:18:49 <ais523> AnMaster: well native is whatever AWT uses on your system, from Java's point of view
21:18:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, well didn't he/she complain about that specific issue to the teacher
21:19:15 <ais523> fizzie: complaining about bugs in the grading system is worthwhile IMO, even if autograders are fine normally
21:19:43 <ais523> AnMaster: the set of knowledge that a university or school course is meant to teach
21:20:07 <ais523> in this case, it was how to write ELIZA-alikes and expert systems using POP11
21:20:28 <fizzie> Well, it's more of a "feature" that it doesn't get stuck in infinite loops; I think it was the only "sensible" program that went over the execution time limit. Don't know whether he complained or not, it might not have made any difference in the course grade. I'm sure he at least talked about it with the teacher.
21:20:28 <ais523> and POP11 is a pretty uninteresting and annoying-to-use imperative language
21:20:43 <AnMaster> ais523, or "print all primes between 0 and 100 using php" -> full blown Sieve of Atkins(!) in PHP, took about a day.
21:21:06 <ais523> it had rudimentary pattern matching, and did loops with recursion, and that's about it for its interesting features
21:21:11 <AnMaster> ais523, not auto grading, the teacher did give me a strange look the lesson after, but didn't comment on it
21:21:12 <fizzie> Oh, and he also wrote a patch to the "xdraw" drawing thing, because that was the major reason the raytracer was so slow. The silly thing had a putpixel performance that was (at least) O(n) where n is the amount of colors used in the image.
21:21:40 <ais523> AnMaster: you could have done that without even a <? involved anywhere, probably would have been shorter too
21:21:46 <ais523> but then that's the -F method of programming
21:22:04 <AnMaster> ais523, hah well I bet the teacher wouldn't have liked that
21:22:21 <ais523> it's a valid solution, though, arguably even the best one if you're going for efficiency
21:22:32 <ais523> change 100 to 10000 and the problem gets more interesting
21:22:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I suspect the teacher expected either "loop, test if prime, print" or sieve of Eratosthenes
21:23:23 <AnMaster> was an introductionary(sp?) course
21:23:45 <ais523> AnMaster: indroductory
21:24:40 <ais523> in the part of the word that was obvious, rather than the confusing part
21:25:07 <ais523> you left the tion in, it disappears in the inflected word in this case
21:25:24 <AnMaster> ah well, that is one part I dislike in English
21:26:11 <oklopol> as i said, no exceptions, no rules, just sentences :)
21:26:45 <ais523> oklopol: but that isn't even a sentence...
21:32:31 <AnMaster> Seeds random number generation with default (fixed) values in the process dictionary, and returns the old state.
21:32:50 <AnMaster> (there is a seed(A, B, C) too, that you can use if you want something random)
21:33:07 <AnMaster> Like {A1,A2,A3} = now(), random:seed(A1, A2, A3)
21:34:40 <tusho> Who pinged me, why
21:35:09 <ais523> tusho: I pinged you because you asked em to
21:35:36 <ais523> AnMaster: a typo, I fixed it on the next line
21:35:49 <ais523> I could also have fixed it with sub m () {"me";}
21:35:51 <AnMaster> ais523, hey use a different separator whe you use sed on an existing sed expression!
21:36:02 <ais523> but that would have been a lot more obscure
21:36:06 <ais523> also my corrections are in Perl
21:36:14 <tusho> ais523 knows, he wrote it
21:36:20 <ais523> if you've seen how complicated my regex corrections get sometimes you'd know why
21:36:38 <tusho> "The sky is green" "No it's not, it's blue" "Yes it is" "No it's not" "Yes it's green" "No, it is most definitely blue"
21:37:02 <AnMaster> tusho, it[who?] has been proved that if there are only two people in Finland, and 5 of them are in #esoteric then ais523's corrections are in sed not perl
21:37:12 <tusho> mine is based on logic
21:37:19 <tusho> plus darwin (the pope) agrees with me
21:37:21 <ais523> AnMaster: luckily there are more than 2 people in finland
21:37:27 <ais523> also your argument is correct but irrelevant
21:37:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well tusho said there were only two
21:37:47 <tusho> there are only two
21:37:49 <tusho> and six or so are in here
21:38:01 <tusho> i can link you to the logs with my elaborate proof
21:38:04 -!- ais523 has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there are only two people in Finland, and 5 of them are in #esoteric.
21:38:08 <AnMaster> tusho, well that still holds true, thanks to the extended hypothesis
21:38:31 <tusho> I can link you to the proof of that too
21:39:17 <tusho> Also, 1 darwin = 10 darwins
21:39:25 <tusho> but, popes are antidarwins
21:39:29 <tusho> the pope is darwin
21:39:36 <tusho> that gets confusing when you realise that the pope was darwin to start with
21:39:45 <tusho> because darwin cannot doubt himself.
21:39:52 <tusho> therefore, we must all hail darwin, defeater of human preconceptions
21:39:53 <AnMaster> only then does 1 darwin = 10 darwin hold true
21:40:04 <tusho> it's okay, because 1 darwin = 10 darwin holds only in africa
21:40:07 <tusho> it's african mathematicis
21:40:10 <Slereah_> What the fuck are you people talking about
21:40:17 <tusho> his Supreme Popeity
21:40:40 <tusho> this is actually just an elaborate collection of injokes that actually makes sense in its own closed world with warped logic, btw
21:40:51 <AnMaster> (now we just need Slereah_ to agree with me to form a cycle)
21:41:19 <tusho> therefore you agreed with me
21:41:29 <ais523> tusho: actually Darwin is an operating system
21:41:31 <tusho> the statement was: "Slereah_ should eat his hat and post pictures on the internet"
21:41:36 <tusho> ais523: no, that ismerely a manifestation
21:41:41 <tusho> of the darwin time cube
21:41:50 <tusho> do not let the popes pope drone mobiles from sheffield take you away
21:42:00 <tusho> you know they are coming when...you hear... the... sound.....
21:42:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I think I'm going to put tusho on ignore now, and I hope so are you
21:42:34 <tusho> #esoteric is a serious business zone!
21:42:44 <ais523> AnMaster: before I came here I used to read Usenet a lot, although I never killfiled anyone I got quite adept at ignoring them mentally
21:42:45 <tusho> Only 100% serious enterprise business - like the cfunge committee - can be discussed here.
21:42:47 <fizzie> Curiously in Discordianism, according to their scripture (such as it is), everyone is a Pope; so Darwin would've been one too.
21:42:49 <tusho> It is of great importance.
21:42:58 <tusho> fizzie: Discordianism is the pope
21:43:19 <tusho> ais523: am I on mental ignore
21:43:35 <tusho> also AnMaster still has not figured out a way to get his computer to search the web for information, is ee
21:43:35 <ais523> tusho: depends on what you say
21:43:43 <ais523> AnMaster: killfiling on Usenet is like /ignore on IRC
21:43:47 <tusho> ais523: time cube educated stupid darwin pope am i on mental ignore
21:43:54 <ais523> although good newsreaders let you killfile threads as well as people
21:44:08 <ais523> the IRC equivalent is /part, I think...
21:44:49 <fizzie> That's more like unsubscribing.
21:45:27 <fizzie> We could all add a conversation identifier prefix to our messages so it would be possible to ignore "threads".
21:47:03 <tusho> AnMaster: why not?
21:47:08 <tusho> just have multiple convo tags
21:47:11 <AnMaster> on linux how do you mount one partition on a cd when the cd got several? like a hfs one and an iso one
21:47:21 <tusho> like, timecube and linux
21:47:25 <AnMaster> oh and tusho is on mental ignore
21:47:30 <tusho> timecube linux @ AnMaster: You educate stupid!
21:47:46 <ais523> AnMaster: do the partitions have separate filenames?
21:47:50 <oerjan> the timecube operating system
21:47:53 <ais523> if so, it's easy, just use the mount command by hand
21:48:01 <AnMaster> /dev/sr0: Apple Partition data block size: 512, first type: Apple_partition_map, name: Apple, number of blocks: 63, second type: Apple_Driver_ATAPI, name: Macintosh, number of blocks: 4, third type: Apple_Free, name: , number of blocks: 0,
21:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | see ed murphy's reply.
21:48:28 <AnMaster> I got no idea how to look at the separate partitions of it
21:48:44 <oerjan> hm, can we use the timecube to implement twoducks?
21:48:51 <AnMaster> ais523, //dev/sr0 is my dvd reader btw
21:48:55 <tusho> oerjan: twoducks is HARMONIOUS TIME CUBE POPE
21:49:05 <ais523> that would be low-level stuff, I'm not too sure how it works but there may be some way to mknod a block-special-device for that partition
21:50:04 <oerjan> i guess i should read some timecube stuff to find out. or maybe i should try to preserve the last vestiges of sanity.
21:50:50 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, not sure if it isn't working, I don't know that much about that sort of thing
21:50:57 <oerjan> Slereah_: to answer that, you need a space time pair of ducks
21:51:03 <ais523> luckily there are lots of other Linux users on IRC, some of them will probably know
21:51:24 <oerjan> Slereah_: see Triangle and Robert
21:51:25 <fizzie> You also need a kernel with CONFIG_MAC_PARTITION=y to get those partition tables read.
21:52:37 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure about hfs/iso hybrid-CDs.
21:55:00 <AnMaster> anyway I asked in #linux, but issue is no one ever responds there (though a few respond to the newbie questions all the time, none responds to advanced ones)
21:58:29 <fizzie> I just remember that mkisofs/genisoimage can do iso/hfs hybrids, don't know about mounting. Although if you yourself can read the relevant formats, usually you can mount just about anything with -o loop=/dev/sr0,offset=magic-number-to-start-of-partition.
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21:59:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I don't know the offsets
21:59:40 <tusho> AnMaster: why do you always bother me about your os x troubles
21:59:53 <AnMaster> tusho, well I didn't know that
22:00:02 <tusho> i guess you're deaf
22:00:08 <tusho> since he's talked about running cfunge on os x
22:00:13 <tusho> and misc. mentions of os x
22:00:17 <tusho> and also answered your os x qs before
22:00:22 <AnMaster> yes but I thought that was some temp thing
22:01:12 <GregorR> No Man or God exists as One, for _Cubic fish of Opposites_, divide the Egg into 4 Opposing Quadrants.
22:02:51 <fizzie> I have a iBook laptop that just seems to work better with OS X. And actually I'm currently writing this using it, since my main desktop managed to get some mysterious hardware issues during the move to this new apartment.
22:08:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have an really old ibook. first model of ibook. PPC, 3.2 GB harddrive
22:08:47 <AnMaster> though extended with another 32 MB module to 64 MB
22:10:39 <GregorR> oerjan: Good ol' Time Cube gave me that one :P
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22:11:47 <AnMaster> or is someone actually that mad?
22:12:23 <oerjan> (1) _someone_ is actually that mad, for whatever value of mad (2) don't know about time cube
22:12:49 <tusho> time cube is not a joke, no
22:12:55 <tusho> gene ray is just a deranged old man with schizophrenia
22:13:10 <tusho> i did quite a bit of idle research in to it
22:13:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: for whatever value of mad, there is always someone that mad
22:14:15 <GregorR> AnMaster: Time Cube is a joke to everyone except Gene Ray :P
22:14:45 <tusho> but yeah gene ray is quite thoroughly mentally ill
22:14:51 <tusho> and i doubt anything can really be done for him
22:15:02 <tusho> best thing to do: laugh heartily
22:15:15 <oerjan> theory: by an amazing coincidence, everything gene ray says is actually perfectly correct, but it will take humanity millennia to discover this
22:15:59 <AnMaster> ftp://ftp.mklinux.apple.com/pub/Other_Tools/
22:16:02 <tusho> http://www.timecube.com/TheWisestHuman_newimg_GeneRayCube.jpg
22:16:06 <tusho> ^ deranged old man.
22:16:38 <AnMaster> Installed versions: 0.1-r6(23.15.49 2008-09-20)
22:16:38 <AnMaster> Homepage: ftp://ftp.mklinux.apple.com/pub/Other_Tools/
22:16:38 <AnMaster> Description: Mac/PowerMac disk partitioning utility
22:16:54 <tusho> AnMaster: this is our problem and we can fix it, certainly
22:17:02 <tusho> however.... that is OLd by the looks of it
22:17:36 <AnMaster> probably before you were born tusho
22:18:37 <tusho> time cube was founded in 1997
22:18:41 <tusho> coincidence? I think not.
22:19:10 <oerjan> a carefully-planned coincidence
22:21:04 <tusho> oerjan: i seem to recall you believe in syncronicity :P
22:21:54 <AnMaster> use mac-fdisk on dvd to get offsets
22:22:01 <AnMaster> then, mount with offset parameter
22:23:35 <oerjan> tusho: on my better days
22:23:59 <tusho> oerjan: clearly it is synchronicity when your better days are
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22:24:17 <oerjan> grammar your excellent is
22:25:03 <oerjan> someone pointed out there was no International like Yoda speak Day
22:25:38 <oerjan> (in IWC's ITLA Pirate D thread, i think)
22:26:27 <tusho> a website need we make just
22:26:40 <ais523> actually, in Latin the Yoda word order was one of the most commonly-used
22:26:55 <oerjan> you seen my website have? clearly for me still too much work it is
22:27:09 <tusho> oerjan: then volunteer do i
22:27:14 <ais523> in Latin you could more or less randomly jumble the order of words in sentences and they would still mean the same thing if they weren't too complex
22:27:22 <ais523> but Yoda word order popular was...
22:28:07 <oerjan> maybe google absolutely sure it not already does exist to make i should do
22:28:29 <tusho> oerjan: idea good is that
22:28:58 <oerjan> http://www.talklikeyoda.com/
22:29:14 <oerjan> also a bit out of date that website is
22:29:50 <tusho> oerjan: What about an International Talk Like a ...!
22:29:57 <tusho> (Whereinst you talk like a Ninja)
22:30:15 <tusho> Slereah_: exactly.
22:30:23 <tusho> the ... is eerie silence
22:30:27 <tusho> the ! is them cutting your throat
22:30:42 <oerjan> ais523: actually i think Yoda order is OSV while Latin was fond of SOV?
22:31:06 <ais523> oerjan: Yoda order is SOV IIRC
22:31:12 <tusho> Word order free english talk am I in experiment as.
22:31:15 <ais523> but yes, Latin is definitely SOV by default
22:31:17 <oerjan> OS being rare but not unknown in human languages (Malagasy e.g.)
22:31:20 <tusho> Understand you can me?
22:31:41 <ais523> although adjectives make things more interesting as in Latin they needn't be attached to the noun they affect
22:31:48 <tusho> Slereah_: Confusing that is too.
22:31:56 <tusho> Like this let us talk
22:32:02 <oerjan> ais523: no, definitely OSV or close, _it_ _is_
22:32:17 <ais523> but then, "it is" is one word in Latin
22:32:25 <ais523> so when the subject's a pronoun, Latin is OSV
22:33:59 <ais523> Monocles sounds like a Greek name, if you pronounce it Mono-cles
22:34:04 <oerjan> Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres
22:34:21 <ais523> oerjan: that's hardly typical word order, it's poetic word order
22:34:26 <ais523> where you anagram the sentence to make it scan well
22:34:39 <oerjan> yeah but it separates the adjective from the noun
22:34:40 <tusho> Hey guys let's talk in RPN english
22:34:43 <tusho> and pack everything into one sentence
22:34:48 <tusho> so we get tons of nouns and adjectives such
22:34:50 <tusho> and it's confusing
22:34:52 <tusho> until the verbs at the end
22:35:14 <tusho> i that idea good is think
22:36:26 <tusho> I idea good all you think not see
22:36:28 <oerjan> should prepositions be postponed?
22:36:54 <tusho> it experiment with perhaps
22:37:11 <tusho> way optimal the to find
22:38:14 <oerjan> brain almost hard grammar thinking quota out of is
22:39:03 <tusho> I I that got think
22:39:42 <tusho> I game the lost just
22:40:53 <tusho> http://i27.tinypic.com/zxts7d.gif this image, which I've already forgotten where it was posted due to the annoyance of losing it but I think it was wikipedia or a forum or something
22:41:55 <tusho> bah, i forgot about the rpn
22:42:09 <tusho> that would have been epic in rpn
22:42:35 * ais523 reads http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/agora-horoscope/ again
22:43:11 <AnMaster> what exactly the rules for yoda grammar are?
22:43:28 <tusho> AnMaster: the force you must use
22:45:27 <oerjan> http://www.talklikeyoda.com/howto/
22:45:52 <oerjan> although there was an essay linked to that i just gave up on
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23:14:08 <oklopol> tusho: I idea good all you think not see <<< could someone parse this for me
23:14:41 <tusho> I ((idea good) (all you) think not) see
23:14:48 <tusho> it should be (you all), possibly
23:15:02 <tusho> in regular english:
23:15:15 <tusho> I see you all think not good idea
23:16:33 <oklopol> with you all it's pretty sensible yeah
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01:13:17 <CO2Games> I think I came up with a creative esoteric language :D
01:15:11 <CO2Games> Nobody wants to know what it is?
01:15:54 <oerjan> nobody is here, is where it's at :)
01:16:41 <oerjan> two hours since anyone spoke
01:19:33 <CO2Games> input is split, processed, and spit out.
01:20:00 <CO2Games> Input is processed by different 'workers' and then output
01:20:32 <Slereah2> Well, then, it's pretty much like any language
01:20:40 <Slereah2> The workers are the real core of the language
01:22:35 <CO2Games> to process a single set of input
01:24:11 <CO2Games> So there can be seperators, combiners, etc.
01:24:21 <CO2Games> Or just things that alter the data
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01:55:54 <CO2Games> What is the name of a supervisor of an assembly line?
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02:40:27 <GregorR> Sounds like monads *haw haw haw*
02:40:57 <ihope> Will the basic data type be the monad?
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02:46:19 <oerjan> CO2Games: sounds a bit like dataflow programming, or unix pipes
02:47:03 <oerjan> haskell also does a lot of pipelines, with or without monads
02:47:45 <GregorR> I just saw an ad for a site where you can buy a will with a "money back guarantee."
02:47:52 <oerjan> GregorR: that IMPURE MONAD IS IMPURE meme, where's that from?
02:47:58 <GregorR> "He planned to leave his vast riches to you, but due to a typo in the will it's been given to somebody with an extremely similar name ... the company he bought the will from had a money-back guarantee however, so here's $39.95."
02:48:11 <GregorR> oerjan: I was parodying <x> CAT IS <x>
02:48:20 <GregorR> oerjan: Since ihope said "Lol, monads" which I changed to "LOLMONADS"
02:48:25 <oerjan> that's where i heard it
02:48:36 <oerjan> i thought it might be something older than lolcat?
02:48:44 <CO2Games> Well it's intended to be an assembly line, each connection has a length
02:48:49 <GregorR> Maybe, but not to my knowledge.
02:49:49 <oerjan> CO2Games: if it's just one assembly line then that sounds like a unix pipeline, except for the supervisor bit
02:50:36 <oerjan> it's possible monads _might_ work for that, if you wanted it in haskell
02:51:19 <oerjan> oh wait those are not haskell Monads, but haskell Arrows
02:57:54 * pikhq returneth from D&D.
03:00:43 <GregorR> I think I need to make a net version of Hydra.
03:01:06 <GregorR> http://codu.org/wiki/?title=Hydra
03:12:37 <GregorR> It's great - by the time a game with a few players is over, you'll have 20-something heads on the table.
03:13:20 <oerjan> this sounds strangely similar to D&D
03:13:34 <GregorR> Nice jab, but I rolled a perfect 20 to save.
03:17:46 <ihope> There's a 1 in 20 chance that you'll be able to do anything.
03:18:31 <ihope> I attempt to make freenode sapient.
03:18:44 <ihope> Darn, rolled a 5. I attempt to make freenode sapient.
03:18:53 <ihope> Darn, rolled a 13. I attempt to make freenode sapient.
03:19:00 <ihope> Darn, rolled a 13. I attempt to make freenode sapient.
03:19:01 * oerjan recalls reading about take 20
03:19:10 <ihope> Darn, rolled a 6. I attempt to make freenode sapient.
03:19:20 <ihope> Darn, rolled a 9. I'll stop now.
03:19:30 <oerjan> what happens if you roll 1 first?
03:20:34 <ihope> Well, heck. I attempt to make freenode sapient.
03:20:45 <ihope> Darn, rolled a 14. I attempt to make freenode sapient.
03:20:55 <ihope> Darn, rolled a 1. So what happens?
03:21:07 <GregorR> I ATTEMPT TO REMOVE IHOPE'S HEAD AND EAT IT WITH A NICE CHIANTI.
03:21:38 <ihope> I didn't know I had 20 heads.
03:22:10 <ihope> I've always wanted to think about 21 things at once. It ranks right up there near my ultimate lifetime goal.
03:22:31 * oerjan refuses to take the bait
03:22:49 <ihope> You don't have to ask. I can just begin a sentence with "Namely,".
03:23:28 * oerjan hides behind a big rock
03:23:29 <ihope> Namely, to jump out of a bus window, catch a paper that flew out and achieved a height of at least 10 meters before coming back down, and jump back into the bus through the same window, all while the bus is going down the freeway at 60 miles per hour.
03:23:35 <ihope> Of course, you all knew that already.
03:24:03 <oerjan> that was so absurd i'm thinking you know about a random generator for the stuff
03:24:34 <ihope> Actually, I spent weeks thinking that up.
03:24:41 <oerjan> actually it doesn't quite fit that - not enough independent parts
03:26:31 <ihope> My penultimate lifetime goal is to be present at a disaster scene, fall unconscious, get inappropriately triaged as needing immediate medical help, wake up, notice that I have a red piece of tape stuck to me, and yell, "Nurse, I'd like a green one, please!"
03:27:31 <oerjan> that _could_ fit in nicely with the first one
03:28:11 <ihope> These are all fantasy scenes from a potential story, taken out of context and relabeled as lifetime goals.
03:28:38 <oerjan> the nurse of course turns out to be color blind
03:29:34 <oerjan> also, ultimate goal random generator doesn't give any relevant google hits, even removing any word other than "goal"
03:29:43 <ihope> My antepenultimate lifetime goal is to get surrounded by police officers inside my high school, then charge at one of them, knocking them over and allowing me to escape. My preantepenultimate lifetime goal is to be taking an AP test when my pager goes off, prompting me to yell "Gotta go!" and run out of the classroom.
03:30:07 <ihope> If you write a random ultimate goal generator, I will wub you forever.
03:30:29 <oerjan> knocking _them_ over? this some kind of domino effect?
03:31:48 <oerjan> the goal under that would presumably be to find a way of continuing the construction "preantepenultimate" indefinitely
03:32:52 <ihope> The one before the preantepenultimate is the penpreantepenultimate, the one before that is the antepenpreantepenultimate, and the one before that is the trasantepenpreantepenultimate.
03:34:09 <ihope> I'm not sure what the one before that is; I'd have to see what "preantepenultimate" is in Italian.
03:35:26 <oerjan> um you mean what penpreantepenultimate is
03:36:02 <oerjan> that was spanish, not italian
03:36:28 <ihope> Since everyone in #esoteric notices everything, and you know it was Spanish, I'm sure you noticed that I began that with "tras", not "pre".
03:37:01 <oerjan> of course. i also assume you are also reading http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/preantepenultimate
03:37:46 <oerjan> the italian could be close, perhaps exactly the same
03:38:22 <oerjan> actually spanish tras = italian tra
03:39:51 <ihope> I'm going to take back what I said and say that the thing before preantepenultimate is nigh-preantepenultimate.
03:40:03 <oerjan> those are obviously originally the same but they don't mean the same thing
03:44:54 <oerjan> http://members.tripod.com/~mrpuzuzu/plan.html looked promising but i think it may need some improvement
03:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :P.
03:48:51 <oerjan> optbot: ah, you liked it too? i guess it will be useful to you now that you are sentient
03:48:51 <optbot> oerjan: because the actual cells used by the program are 2 and 4.
03:49:07 <optbot> oerjan: I should grab that one implementation of Scheme for the Palm.
03:49:30 <ihope> optbot, say something now if you want me to yell at you.
03:49:30 <optbot> ihope: 0>"olleH"?:#,_@
03:49:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the entire language is one big race condition, hehe.
03:49:42 <ihope> Hmm, what language is this?
03:50:09 <oerjan> something concurrent, presumably
03:50:20 <CO2Games> Here it is: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Conveyor
03:50:21 <olsner> or just anything imperative
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08:44:59 <oklopol> 05:23… × oerjan hides behind a big rock <<< haw haw i misread this
08:46:55 <oklopol> i had a dream where i was holding this balloon, and suddenly it started lifting me in the air
08:53:24 <oklopol> it's so long you can just give up right away.
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09:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Not straight after the first..
09:51:21 <Mony> optbot, how r u ?
09:51:22 <optbot> Mony: anyways it probably doesn't qualify as esoteric, simply because its designed to be useful ;)
09:51:48 <Mony> i think u're right bot ;)
09:54:24 <oklopol> smart bot such a pretty bot
10:03:24 <Mony> hi HanDongSeong ;)
10:04:23 <oklopol> If there are any heads with an equal or lower value than the card being placed, it must be placed on one of them. ||| If the player cannot place a card normally (that is, if there are no heads with a value greater than or equal to the value of the card)
10:04:32 <oklopol> i think i'm misunderstanding something here
10:08:16 <oklopol> GregorR: am i getting this right, the first part of hydra is effectively random, because you don't know whether your actions hinder or help you, because you don't know the cards of anyone
10:08:38 <oklopol> after the first deck has been dispersed, it's about remembering your discard pile
10:08:45 <oklopol> and the discard piles of others
10:09:16 <oklopol> strategically of course, i doubt it's anything but a game of luck played with humans
10:10:10 <oklopol> GregorR: how come you're not responding to my highlights? if you're asleep just wake up sheesh...
10:10:31 <oklopol> sun is up there, even though you may not see it from where you're at.
10:11:00 <oklopol> but saying "it's night where i live!" is like saying "i gotta go to sleep because my curtains are closed"
10:11:52 <oklopol> i think it's coffee time, i'm not imaginative enough for monologues anymore
10:12:13 <oklopol> i recall the times of glory when i'd just fill pages and pages of random content from the backside of my brain
10:12:21 <oklopol> it was fun, fun time they were, indeed yes
10:15:03 <oklopol> coffee makes it all seem worthwhile
10:15:30 <Mony> (I hate coffee, I prefer milk)
10:17:47 <oklopol> HanDongSeong: well at first i was not going to hi you, because i didn't hi Mony either just before that until he hied me first. and i've seen him more times than you so it wouldn't have been fair
10:18:08 <oklopol> but than i realized your nick is effing awesome
10:18:42 <oklopol> yes it's awesome because it may actually not be nonsense
10:20:01 <oklopol> "han" is swedish for "he", "dong" is a cock, "seong" could be a typoed sone; i think this means "he sings about cocks"
10:22:07 <oklopol> HanDongSeong: what does it mean? :)
10:22:27 <oklopol> because if i was right, i'm going to take that awesomeness comment back, and also retract my hi
10:22:48 <HanDongSeong> okay... so a lot of people are telling me that dong means cock in their languages...
10:23:08 <HanDongSeong> in case of my name, Dong is supposed to mean a "pillar"
10:23:27 <Mony> "he sings about cocks" <-- lol
10:23:49 <HanDongSeong> and in Korean, metaphorically it means something forming basis of another thing
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10:24:16 <oklopol> it strikes as a chinese ding-dong-wiggly-wong word to me. the penis interpretation was only after i separated to capitalized words and tried to find similar ones in random languages i know.
10:25:32 <oklopol> many far-eastern words are finnish onomatopoeia for sounds of bells
10:25:52 <HanDongSeong> Seong used in my name means "to form" or "to constitute"
10:26:09 <oklopol> also for english ones; i guess this is why they stuff like dong sound funny to me, and don't immediately sound like cock.
10:26:19 <HanDongSeong> and we usually have verb after objective in Korean language
10:26:41 <oklopol> is it a stack-based language?
10:26:57 <oklopol> oh god i wanna learn korean
10:27:40 <oklopol> how about with longer sentences
10:28:15 <oklopol> the girl who was given the ice cream said to the old man with the giant beard that she'd never seen such a large reptile before in her life
10:28:26 <oklopol> can you quickly translate this random sentence and tell me the constituent words
10:29:39 <HanDongSeong> and Han is my surname... it doesn't really mean something
10:34:43 <HanDongSeong> the translated sentence will be: "아이스크림을 받아든 소녀는 수염이 어마어마한 그 노인에게 그런 커다란 파충류는 난생 처음 본다고 말했다."
10:38:55 <HanDongSeong> the first word is ice-cream-eul, where eul (pronounced [ɨl]) is a 'postposition' to mark an objective. ice cream is just ice cream in korean, it's a borrowed word
10:44:21 <HanDongSeong> second one... pronounced [padadɨn], originally a verb '받아들다' meaning 'to take and hold', and here modified as a 'pre-noun'. you can regard it as an adjective
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10:45:56 <HanDongSeong> thus the name of governing party of North Korea, Joseon Rodongdang
10:46:59 <oklopol> rodongdang sounds a bit belly too, "dong dang" is definitely something a bell would say.
10:47:18 <oklopol> but, enough with the belittling your language, do continue with the example
10:48:57 <oklopol> means "all" in lojban, i'm sure there's a connection
10:49:30 <HanDongSeong> not like western ones, korean is a syllable-oriented language
10:50:04 <oklopol> i'm not sure what that means
10:50:22 <HanDongSeong> it means one syllable has very many meanings, and it's meaning can only be told when it is composed with other syllables
10:51:50 <HanDongSeong> given only 'dong', you can't tell anything, since it really can be a lot of things
10:52:44 <oklopol> in japanese dictionaries they usually list the things a syllable *doesn't* mean
10:53:26 <HanDongSeong> em.. in japanese, you usually need two or more syllables to express one morpheme
10:53:49 <HanDongSeong> a morpheme with only one syllable is quite rare in japanese
10:54:07 <oklopol> i've just read part of this kanji book, and for instance KO is listed for about 50 words
10:54:18 <HanDongSeong> however in korean a morpheme is often one syllable
10:55:02 <oklopol> that's the point of syllable-orientation or the point of why japanese doesn't have unisyllable morphemes?
10:55:33 <HanDongSeong> actually these two languages are very very similar... because of the colonization, which happened just about 60 years ago
10:56:08 <oklopol> i thought korean was substantially... weirder :)
10:56:09 <HanDongSeong> what i mean is in japanese they tend to have more syllables
10:56:19 <oklopol> as in sounded more foreign to western ppl
10:56:48 <HanDongSeong> in terms of irregularity, korean is weirder, yeah
10:57:14 <oklopol> anyway either break down the example or ask for a smaller one, i wanna see how stacky it is :P
10:57:48 <oklopol> the crocodile without teeth did not enjoy his tea
10:58:11 <HanDongSeong> you mentioned ko in japanese, and almost same thing applies to dong in korean
10:58:35 <oklopol> (this, of course, happens right after the first scene with the girl, little girls are the tea of crocodiles)
10:59:57 <oklopol> pikhq: btw don't read this, i don't want to hear how wrong i am about the few things i said about japanese.
11:00:39 <Slereah2> "little girls are the tea of crocodiles"
11:01:29 <HanDongSeong> dong can refer to.... east, movement, child, bronze, winter, freezing, pillar, the pupil of the eye, ...
11:01:32 <oklopol> you know, girl sees crocodile, crocodile eats girl, doesn't like his tea, is killed by man with beard, who then eats the ice cream and leaves the little girl crying (it was her ice cream after all)
11:02:11 <oklopol> HanDongSeong: well all those words mean "cock" in english, so i guess it's kinda reverse syllable-oriented.
11:02:45 <oklopol> "so, like, then i totally Froze her with with my Bronze Child"
11:03:04 <HanDongSeong> Dong is one kind of administrative district in South Korea.
11:03:06 <oklopol> "wow, you really Wintered her with your Movement?"
11:03:29 <oklopol> "yeah, totally Pillared the Pupil of Her Eye"
11:04:07 <oklopol> sorry, just demonstrating english to you.
11:04:28 <oklopol> the urbandictionary dialect
11:06:07 <oklopol> oh is it a synonym for East?
11:06:32 <HanDongSeong> okay then, i'll give you a totally uncockifiable meaning of dong. Dong sometimes means a paulownia tree!
11:07:08 <oklopol> have you ever seen a tree?
11:07:18 <oklopol> it's a recursive cock, man
11:07:39 <oklopol> of course, i'm not sure what paulownia is
11:09:02 <oklopol> HanDongSeong: on this channel people whose nicks start with an "o" are generally joking 24/7
11:09:30 <optbot> oklopol: or related to the instruments and the arrangement.
11:10:07 <HanDongSeong> well, what i wanted to see was you desperately trying to connect them but okay..
11:10:32 <oklopol> it's a bit sad when people think my trolling is real
11:11:52 <oklopol> well, okay, one of the stereotypes of eastern ppl is that they're small; i'm sure this is enough for calling your little man the eastern dude, which could abbreviate to "east"
11:12:21 <oklopol> also for now on my penis will be called the eastern dude, i don't care how racist that is.
11:13:06 <oklopol> also south absolutely means cock already, as the cock is in the south
11:13:40 <oklopol> it's actually quite common to have your penis twist a bit to the left.
11:14:13 <oklopol> and no, i don't need you to reassure or counterexample that.
11:14:57 <Slereah2> I'll show you a man's pupil of the eye
11:15:39 <oklopol> i'll promise to look if you make a fractal out of it.
11:15:55 <oklopol> HanDongSeong: btw did you come here for esolangs?
11:16:08 <Slereah2> A fractal requires an infinite number of iterations
11:16:18 <oklopol> most of the time it's just jokes, sex and befunge.
11:16:49 <Slereah2> What is your esolang, mister dong
11:17:37 <oklopol> Slereah2: shoudn't you physicists be excellent at analysis? infinite is nothing if you have infinite nothings-on-average
11:18:05 <Slereah2> My dong is not nothing, though
11:19:01 <Slereah2> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Udage
11:19:17 <oklopol> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Udage
11:19:24 <Slereah2> Why is the memory called udage?
11:20:05 <Slereah2> But it's long and full of stuff I don't understand :(
11:20:13 <Slereah2> Computer science ended in the 60's for me
11:20:27 <oklopol> The tape is a linear memory space with unbounded cells, each containing a bit value, 0 or 1. <<< unbounded number of?
11:20:45 <oklopol> because an unbounded bit is actually not that unbounded :P
11:20:56 <Slereah2> It means your 1 can be as big as you want
11:20:57 <HanDongSeong> my English was (and is, maybe) really horrible back then
11:21:46 <HanDongSeong> Slereah2, the idea is simple. it is "pattern-based." the code AAAABA and BBBBAB means the same thing.
11:22:16 <oklopol> HanDongSeong: that actually sounds remotely interesting
11:22:36 <oklopol> but i'd have to click on the link to get more details :<
11:22:58 <oklopol> http://gs30ng.exca.net/udage/specification
11:23:06 <oklopol> which button do i press now :-)
11:23:18 <Slereah2> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=lsvfhW857PA
11:24:10 <oklopol> that's probably the most famous girl on the tube.
11:24:29 <oklopol> i rate spam pages for google, i call her spam girl
11:25:43 <HanDongSeong> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Glypho could be easier to understand
11:26:44 <oklopol> the symbol-independence is quite a simple concept, i was more interested in the doors
11:27:02 <Slereah2> Well, I hope so. I don't have a korean keyboard!
11:28:03 <oklopol> i thought they were doors to the *code*
11:28:06 <AnMaster> Glypho, hm, what input encoding is used?
11:28:37 <AnMaster> or is it an unicode codepoint (after parsing the utf8=
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11:29:54 <HanDongSeong> i think one symbol should be one unicode character (like Udage does), but it's up to the author, and he's not here anymore
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11:30:34 <HanDongSeong> he was here while i was working on Udage, and was inspired by it
11:31:21 <AnMaster> HanDongSeong, does Udage use utf8 or ascii?
11:33:31 <HanDongSeong> utf8 is recommended, although ascii characters (not even all of them) are enough to write programs
11:34:23 <Slereah_> What's the minimal amount of char you can use?
11:35:08 <AnMaster> HanDongSeong, point is you need to know the charset used for the source file
11:36:18 <AnMaster> except if the interpreter used char * it wouldn't work
11:36:39 <HanDongSeong> Udage is meant to enable non-text source codes, like a MIDI music to be a source code
11:38:05 <Slereah_> 99 bottles of beer on the wall for 99 bottles of beer on the wall
11:38:13 <AnMaster> The 99 bootles of beer symphony
11:38:31 <HanDongSeong> or a PNG image to be a source code. (GregorR was thinking of a good name for 2-dimensional Udage)
11:38:45 <HanDongSeong> the point is that Udage is pattern-based, symbol-independent
11:39:20 <AnMaster> HanDongSeong, ah! The program: Mona World
11:39:36 <HanDongSeong> so i can only say that the implementation is recommended to assume that the code is utf8, but basically it's up to the implementation
11:39:46 <AnMaster> HanDongSeong, as for two dimensional udage that is easy
11:40:13 <AnMaster> Slereah_, no, that could be trefunge or unefunge based
11:40:52 <Slereah_> DO NOT JUDGE A LANGUAGE DIMENSION BY ITS NAME
11:41:02 <AnMaster> HanDongSeong, lets use EBCDIC!
11:42:22 <HanDongSeong> in Glypho, you can say it is indeed pattern-based
11:42:30 <Slereah_> Extra Befungesque Colored Dong Incredibly Complete?
11:42:56 <HanDongSeong> you just group the code, 4 chars in each group
11:43:31 <HanDongSeong> which i actually had in mind before proposing the idea of udage in public
11:44:57 <HanDongSeong> the reason i didn't finally take it is that "all the songs of udage will likely be quadruple-timed"
11:46:57 <oklopol> HanDongSeong: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome for interesting usage of pattern-based syntax
11:47:33 <HanDongSeong> not that i would prefer only 3 chars in each group
11:51:10 <oklopol> i want a new thread to be born every cycle, and i want every thread to have a portal to some other thread
11:51:20 <oklopol> so that the threads form a graph that's constantly growing
11:51:35 <oklopol> and every node is a thread with its own small set of rules for movement
11:54:48 <HanDongSeong> i lost interest in udage since 2006, because one morning i got a far greater esolang idea than it
11:56:03 <HanDongSeong> i was all excited, passionate and obssessed by thinking i should write down the spec of this and the implementation in a week, and then ... i've been busy.
11:56:32 <Slereah_> Plus right know, it's school months
11:56:40 <Slereah_> So I don't have that much time
11:57:48 <Slereah_> I also have no idea how to implement my last language D:
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12:16:06 <Slereah_> http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/RyanEstrada.jpg
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12:45:47 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Korean_dance-Bukcheong_Saja_Noreum-01.jpg
12:45:57 <Slereah_> Is Korea often invaded by furry monsters?
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12:55:35 <Slereah_> Good thing they were all killed during WWII then
12:56:07 <tusho> HanDongSeong: so wait, was it furries or furry monsters
12:56:11 <tusho> the former is more terrifying
12:56:26 <HanDongSeong> those lions in that traditional play are all imaginary
12:56:58 <HanDongSeong> hence there appearance, having no resemblance with real lions
12:57:51 <HanDongSeong> <China> hey, you know what? there are some weird creatures called lions in far west
12:58:36 <tusho> <China> i dunno lol
12:59:38 <HanDongSeong> well, my explanation is a little bit simplified but basically true
13:00:03 <tusho> Yes, I don't think China would use memes while talking to Korea.
13:00:18 <HanDongSeong> so these korean people made their own image of lion
13:01:46 <Slereah_> Didn't China had lion statues that were more lion-like than that?
13:02:08 <tusho> I love the idea of Korea knowing that lions exist but not what they look like
13:02:17 <tusho> * Korea sees an elephant for the first time
13:02:23 <tusho> <Korea> JESUS CHRIST IT'S A LION GET IN THE CAR
13:02:41 <Slereah_> Well, there's elephants in Asia
13:02:52 <tusho> elephants are kind of like finland
13:03:16 <Slereah_> So... When Russia fights elephants, Russia loses?
13:03:24 <HanDongSeong> actually elephants were imported here, about 600 years ago.
13:03:26 <tusho> And elephants have 2 people
13:03:35 <tusho> 6 of which are in this channel
13:03:44 <Slereah_> Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that at least India has elephants
13:03:54 <Slereah_> And India isn't as far as Africa.
13:04:23 <HanDongSeong> Slereah_, true. they were imported from india.
13:05:01 <Slereah_> Europe only gets shitty life importation.
13:05:02 <HanDongSeong> just as buddhism was imported from india to korea about a couple of thousand years ago
13:05:32 <HanDongSeong> and that's when the existence of 'lion' was known in korea
13:06:23 <tusho> <India> hey, you know what? there are some weird creatures called buddhas
13:06:23 <tusho> <Korea> cool. what do they look like?
13:06:48 <Slereah_> Is that how Dragons were created?
13:06:57 <Slereah_> Failed representations of Buddha
13:07:23 <tusho> Dragons have been around in mythology longer than 600 years
13:07:50 <HanDongSeong> buddhism is currently one of the major three religions of S Korea
13:08:36 <tusho> Yes, there are 3 major religions in S Korea: Buddhism and communism
13:08:44 <HanDongSeong> No communism in Korea... although there's Jucheism in N Korea
13:09:23 <Slereah_> You can't do magic tricks with nuclear arms
13:09:31 <tusho> Rubbish. S Korea has 3 religions and they are buddhism and communism
13:10:09 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titoism <- that name sounds way better
13:10:30 <HanDongSeong> fyi, they are Confucianism, Buddhism, and Christianism
13:10:56 <tusho> Isn't it "christianity"? :P
13:11:03 <tusho> Although Christianism sounds funnier :D
13:11:35 <HanDongSeong> surprisingly there are also many atheists here
13:11:56 <HanDongSeong> maybe because the first two religions doesn't imply the existence of god
13:12:12 <tusho> Slereah_: The only conclusion that Confucianism, Christianity, Judaism and Atheism
13:12:16 <tusho> are all facades for communism.
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13:13:25 <tusho> i don't think he liked our communism theories
13:13:43 <Slereah_> Maybe we scared him with our stupidity
13:33:43 <tusho> http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2006/06/the_gillette_si.php The number of blades on razors will be the cause of singularity.
14:14:57 <Slereah_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Avogadro_Amedeo.jpg
14:15:04 <Slereah_> Avogadro is an ugly little man
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14:50:44 <oklofok> are christians statistically happier than atheists?
14:51:26 <oklofok> substitute some other religion for christianity if you wish
14:51:56 <Slereah_> They can't have gay sex or kill babies
14:53:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if ( doesn't push correctly mycology still tries to unload using the value it pushed, this behaviour doesn't match what the comment on line 214-217 in mycology.b98 say
14:53:32 <AnMaster> it end up in an infinite loop on line 217 instead
14:54:00 <AnMaster> bouncing between the ) at )g22g33 and ,a$_,#! #:<
14:56:55 <Deewiant> does it print the "BAD: ( did not push correct fingerprint"?
14:58:05 <tusho> i'm an atheist but i'm pretty happy
14:58:11 <Deewiant> hm, there's also a misalignment there
14:58:26 <tusho> then again i don't really think of myself as having an actual present disbelief of a god rather than just a lack of belief
14:59:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so can you give me a trace/something of what happens after the ( at (118,210) ?
15:01:16 <oklofok> tusho: it's obvious people with brain are happy, intelligence knows what it likes; i'm wondering about the majority of people
15:01:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, once it compiles again I will emulate old behaviour again and test it.
15:01:28 <tusho> People with brain are happy
15:01:33 <tusho> They need to do way instain mother>
15:02:39 <Deewiant> oklofok: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=instain
15:03:13 <tusho> who kill thier babbys. because these babby cant frigth back?
15:03:27 <oklofok> oh "do way instain mother"
15:03:36 <oklofok> i missed the do, might've been able to parse that
15:04:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just got it to work so will commit, push, then check old behaviour
15:04:02 <tusho> oklofok: http://www.somethingawful.com/flash/shmorky/babby.swf btw
15:06:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://pastebin.ca/1207418
15:06:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what happened was that it 1) loaded the fingerprint but 2) *did not* push the fingerprint or the 1
15:07:26 <AnMaster> should be easy to simulate that in ccbi by just commenting out a few lines
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15:36:18 <tusho> Slereah_: yes very old
15:36:21 <tusho> but he was confused
15:36:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, so the cause was the misalignment I mentioned
15:37:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, you have fixed it?
15:37:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fine since I already have working NULL and ROMA here
15:37:43 <AnMaster> I did it the lazy functional way
15:37:48 <AnMaster> {IP, fstackstack:push(Stack, Amount)}
15:38:49 <AnMaster> "an archaic word originally meaning `in truth' but now usually used to express disbelief "
15:39:19 <AnMaster> http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=forsooth
15:39:20 <Deewiant> I've never seen or heard it used to express disbelief
15:39:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aforsooth
15:41:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Yes I mean that the two hits disagree with each other
15:41:42 <tusho> <wiktionary> forsooth
15:43:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, though higher order functions aren't really needed to generate ROMA. In cfunge I use:
15:43:08 <AnMaster> static void FingerROMApush ## x (instructionPointer * ip) { \
15:43:08 <AnMaster> StackPush(ip->stack, (fungeCell)y); \
15:43:19 <tusho> i would never have guessed
15:43:25 <tusho> of course they aren't require
15:43:44 <AnMaster> tusho, I mean required in order to generate in a simple way
15:44:07 <tusho> what do you mean why do i care, am i suddenly not allowed to talk in here about what i want to talk about?
15:44:55 <AnMaster> tusho, of course you are allowed, but since you seem to not care at all about cfunge normally...
15:45:24 <tusho> i wasn't talking about cfunge
15:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | heh.
15:54:53 <CO2Games> This is a collaborative language. If you're reading this, nobody collaborated yet. Oops. (This should be gone in 5 minutes when we actually think of something.)
15:56:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I uploaded the fixed Mycology in case you're interested
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16:13:25 <tusho> we will collaborate on it eventually
16:13:45 <tusho> CO2Games: what is the problem
16:14:10 <CO2Games> It sounds fun but it's not made yet
16:16:30 <tusho> CO2Games: the name is a knuth quote, btw
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16:19:00 <Slereah2> A language with a lame name won't do.
16:19:11 <tusho> D is unpopular beacuse its impossible to google
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16:22:36 <CO2Games> So what do you guys think of conveyor
16:23:01 <Slereah2> It makes me think of "Rube on a conveyor belt"
16:23:22 <CO2Games> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Conveyor
16:24:04 <CO2Games> all commands are four characters with no arguments
16:24:04 <Slereah2> I sort of have to do that solid state physic homework, so I can't really read that.
16:27:38 <AnMaster> hm wouldn't it be a good idea to make it say: "BAD: a04-M doesn't push -2 (it pushed XXX instead)"
16:27:57 <AnMaster> certainly you could run it separately
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16:30:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why is there a blank line between those in mycology output? IRC eats it up
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16:39:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can't explain it
16:40:08 <Deewiant> well it's a bug in your interpreter
16:40:26 <AnMaster> was pushing on the wrong stack
16:40:38 <AnMaster> I mean: erlang have single assignment
16:41:05 <AnMaster> then I pushed the result on S2 and returned that by mistake
16:42:54 <AnMaster> anyway I have ROMA NULL and MODU now :)
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16:45:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw what do you think about "extra" environment variables in y? Basically it seems that Erlang defines some custom ones in it's *own* wrapper script
16:47:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like this: http://rafb.net/p/V82BuQ74.html
16:47:41 <Deewiant> since you've already defined efunge as running on the "Erlang OS", do whatever you wish...
16:48:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well erlang is kind of closed world, not as much as that squeak tusho mentioned, but certainly to a high degree :)
16:48:41 <AnMaster> And some of these I can't "fix"
16:49:11 <AnMaster> (oh and erl won't run without HOME or PATH set, that is why they are defined on the command line)
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16:50:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, one thing: I will clearly document these issues.
16:51:04 <KingOfKarlsruhe> Pippi Longstocking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORM5kKGdaxA
16:51:54 <AnMaster> oh even funnier name in the youtube video
16:52:15 <AnMaster> well I guess they had to translate from the original Swedish name (Pipi Longstrump)
16:52:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Pippi Långstrump is the original
16:52:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as far as I know it was written by a Swedish author
16:53:09 <AnMaster> so.. why wouldn't Pippi Långstrump be the original then?
16:53:20 <Deewiant> 2008-09-21 18:52:18 ( Deewiant) AnMaster: Pippi Långstrump is the original
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18:04:27 <pikhq> oklopol's Japanese sucks balls.
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18:13:59 <olsner> I'd be lucky to have a japanese like that
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18:23:13 <tusho> pikhq: Welcome back to Agora.
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19:09:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw I think you said my .spec system to generate fingerprint list (and skeletons for fingerprint C files) in cfunge "looked unnecessary complex" or something like that?
19:09:45 <AnMaster> in fact I'm now glad I did it, was easy to modify the scripts to output erlang instead :)
19:11:32 <AnMaster> more than 2/3rd of the script code is shared
19:14:06 <tusho> AnMaster: you could have just used sed on the non-unneccessarily-complex code
19:14:48 <AnMaster> tusho, hm? You mean sed the output C file to produce an erlang file?
19:14:55 <AnMaster> hah, possible but actually harder
19:15:09 <tusho> AnMaster: No, I mean without the overly complex .spec system.
19:15:15 <tusho> Just do it in a simple way, then to get the erlang, use sed.
19:15:21 <AnMaster> tusho, it isn't really that complex
19:15:49 <AnMaster> it just defines some metadata (description, url) of the fingerprint + what instructions it implements
19:21:22 <Sgeo> I'm bored. How will the channel react if I say
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19:41:38 <tusho> guess what i just ost
19:42:03 <Sgeo> ty a lot, tusho
19:42:09 * Sgeo refers to xkcd for the cure
19:42:25 <tusho> the game does not specify that you can win
19:42:28 <tusho> just that you can lose
19:42:33 <tusho> that xkcd comic actually makes you lose
19:42:35 <tusho> because you think about it.
19:42:45 <tusho> AnMaster: The Game.
19:43:06 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm afraid that means nothing to me. I even checked the last xkcd before asking in order to be sure
19:43:07 <oklopol> i'm don't think, therefore, i don't lose.
19:43:26 <tusho> AnMaster: 1. You are playing the game. 2. Every time you think about The Game you lose the game. 3. Loss must be announced.
19:43:27 <Sgeo> AnMaster, if you think about the game, you lose the game, and you have to announce that you lost.
19:43:49 <tusho> AnMaster: Who knows?
19:43:51 <tusho> It has been around since forever.
19:43:59 <tusho> A wildly successful cultural meme.
19:44:03 <tusho> (Not internet-originated.)
19:44:21 <Deewiant> and, I maintain, approximately the stupidest thing ever.
19:44:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(mind_game)
19:44:51 <tusho> Deewiant: stupid or not, you're playing it
19:44:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was just thinking about saying that it was stupid yes
19:45:31 <tusho> Deewiant: impossible
19:49:03 <AnMaster> Sgeo, also what xkcd comic in specific did you mean?
19:49:11 <tusho> AnMaster: it said 'You have just WON the game!'
19:49:16 <tusho> it didn't work for obvious reasons
19:49:27 <tusho> AnMaster: look in the archives, jeez
19:50:33 <AnMaster> tusho, I have no intention to check them all, will check ones with names containing "game" and/or "won"
19:50:41 <tusho> so don't ask me to.
19:51:05 <oklopol> tusho: you don't remember the url of every comic you've read? are you retarded or something?
19:51:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, I didn't suggest that
19:51:20 <AnMaster> but I thought maybe he remembered the name
19:51:33 <Sgeo> http://www.xkcd.com/391/
19:51:37 <AnMaster> and I don't complain that he *didn't* remember it
19:52:04 <AnMaster> also, like Deewiant, I'm *not* playing
19:52:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: this is not about what you complained, this is about what tusho didn't remember
19:52:40 <oklopol> i'm being serious here, it's not healty to forget a number.
19:52:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't think remembering numbers is that important, I myself have a bad memory for such things
19:54:02 <oklopol> am i on a channel full of apes or something? that's just scary, AnMaster.
19:54:35 <AnMaster> sure the basic constants I remember and such (pi ~ 3.14159, e ~ 2.7183)
19:55:14 <Sgeo> lol at oklopol
19:55:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, then what is the last digit
19:55:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, damn you beat me to it
19:55:40 <oklopol> Deewiant: wait a mo, i remember them sequentially
19:55:59 * oklopol is at digit no. 2^7324 now
19:56:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, how many digits are there?
19:56:23 <Sgeo> Can you at least tell us what digit 2^7324 is?
19:56:42 <Deewiant> he'd have to start over to get there again
19:56:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's about infinite, i haven't counted the exact number
19:56:49 <oklopol> may be like a hundred off infinity
19:57:47 <AnMaster> there is no way to get from 0 to infinite by counting. That is like one of the defining properties of infinity
19:58:28 <oklopol> yeah i guess it can't be exactly infinity then
19:58:44 <oklopol> but i'm sure it's not more than a thousand less at least
19:59:24 <AnMaster> infinite - any finite number = infinite
19:59:56 <tusho> AnMaster: stop treating oklopol like a retard
20:00:03 <oklopol> it might seem that way because infinity seems like such a bit number to you.
20:00:05 <tusho> anyone in #esoteric does
20:00:15 <tusho> but oklopol is just crazy and likes saying crap, and it is funny.
20:00:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Cantor already did, I suggest you read his works on the subject
20:00:20 <oklopol> it's like, a million minus ten? it's million
20:00:27 <oklopol> because who cares about ten
20:00:49 <oklopol> except infinity is a bit more than a million iirc
20:01:00 <AnMaster> since you are all trolling now I'll just ignore this discussion
20:01:01 <oklopol> i don't remember the actual difference now
20:01:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I fail to see how this is trolling
20:01:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't think you are a retard either.
20:02:33 <oklopol> i would say it started with trolling, and after that it was pure joking; except that i'm totally serious
20:02:46 <Sgeo> AnMaster, you are under arrest for attempted murder of a joke.
20:03:52 <oklopol> aaaaanyway AnMaster i do understand the concept of infinity, i've been reading about it for the past week for an analysis course like 24/7
20:04:26 <oklopol> ......but i think they're just approximating infinity to be that big i'm sure there are *some* numbers that are bigger than it!
20:04:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, fun, though maybe not fun if it is 24/7.
20:04:58 <AnMaster> that depends on how you define infinity
20:05:13 <oklopol> well 24/7 for a week would be impossible since it's not that thick a book, i've been reading other things as well
20:05:19 <AnMaster> iirc 10^aleph-0 is larger than aleph-0
20:05:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh possible, I said iirc
20:06:10 * oklopol adds one to that and laughs in victory!
20:06:19 <Deewiant> or hmm, maybe it is, I'm not sure actually
20:06:26 <Deewiant> it might require the axiom of choice though
20:06:38 * Sgeo forgot to read Dudley's Dungeon
20:07:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also aren't the set of natural numbers smaller than the set of all rational and irrational numbers (IIRC!!!!)
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20:07:51 <AnMaster> oh was it irrational ones then that wasn't?
20:07:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think you should read a bit more Cantor ;-)
20:07:57 <oklopol> this is true for any numbers you can represent with finite tuples of natural numbers
20:08:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, very possible. I have learnt most from other books and or websites
20:08:22 <Deewiant> does proving reals > nats require the AoC?
20:08:49 <oklopol> Deewiant: oerjan just joined.
20:08:57 <oklopol> all questions should be directed to him
20:09:48 <oerjan> and yes, naturals ~~ rationals < reals
20:10:29 <oklopol> but i only have an intuitive view to this, really
20:10:44 <AnMaster> also according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number Aleph-one > Aleph-zero
20:11:00 <oerjan> proving that reals reasonably exist at all requires some piece of AoC
20:11:05 <oklopol> and with infinities intuition is like eatin butter with your butt, the words suggest you can do it, but it's actually very unpleasant
20:11:13 <AnMaster> though I find it hard, or rather impossible, to understand how "infinite" can come in different sizes
20:11:17 <oerjan> but from there it's plain sailing
20:11:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about 10^aleph-zero, is it larger than aleph-zero or is it equal?
20:12:09 <oerjan> it's equal to the reals
20:12:33 <AnMaster> then what about 10^10^aleph-zero
20:12:43 <oklopol> for the intuitive proof, 10^aleph-zero is greater than any polynomial, so you can't make the numbers out of finite tuples
20:13:07 <oerjan> Cantor's proof shows that 10^x, or 2^x > x for any cardinality without exception
20:13:27 <oklopol> for all b > 1: b ^ An = A(n+1) ?
20:14:02 <Deewiant> or did that only hold for n = 0
20:14:06 <oerjan> the _generalized_ continuum hypothesis says that for b = 2
20:14:31 <oklopol> so for all b >= 2: b ^ An = A(n+1) ?
20:15:01 <oerjan> CH is for n = 0, GCH is for all n
20:15:45 <oerjan> oklopol: no! you could have b > A(n+1) so that's obviously false
20:16:20 <oerjan> b = 2, basically, but any finite b >= 2 should also work
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20:16:46 <oklofok> 22:15:35 oerjan: oklopol: no! you could have b > A(n+1) so that's obviously false <<< you mathematicians are such cheaters
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20:17:59 <oklofok> hard to explain what i meant, ignore it.
20:18:14 <oklofok> was just trying to be a weird joke.
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20:20:47 <oerjan> iirc there are lots of cardinalities such that x^(A_0) = x
20:22:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about aleph-0 ^ aleph-0
20:22:21 <oerjan> that's the reals too iirc
20:22:59 <oerjan> beth-0 = aleph-0, beth-(n+1) = 2^(beth-n), by definition
20:23:00 <AnMaster> huh, that's just odd. since you said 10^10^aleph-0 > 10^aleph-0 and 10^aleph-0 = reals
20:23:17 <AnMaster> but indeed intuition doesn't work for this stuff
20:23:34 <oerjan> recall that ^ is right associative
20:23:58 <oerjan> (that's the most useful convention)
20:24:42 <AnMaster> huh, wonder why my graph calculator makes it *left associative*
20:25:19 <oerjan> it's not a very strong convention, since in real math it's done with superscripts
20:25:46 <oerjan> but haskell uses it, QED :D
20:25:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, so... 10^A_0 == A_0 ^ A_0 and 10 < A_0
20:27:47 <oerjan> possibly 2^x = A_0 ^ x for any infinite cardinality
20:29:28 <oerjan> ah here is one "intuitive" way of seeing it:
20:29:48 <oerjan> recall that any real number can be given as a continued fraction
20:30:11 <oerjan> and at each step of a continued fraction you can choose an arbitrary natural number
20:30:27 <oerjan> so number of reals should be about A_0^A_0
20:31:19 <oerjan> now once you have this for x = A_0, larger x may follow with a bit of arithmetic
20:31:32 <oerjan> for x >= A_0, x = x * A_0
20:32:23 <oerjan> 2^x = 2^(x*A_0) = (2^A_0)^x
20:33:07 <oerjan> proves that they are all equal from 2 to 2^A_0 ~~ reals
20:33:11 <AnMaster> right. The math makes sense if I ignore what A_0 actually stands for :P
20:33:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is possible to find any given number hm?
20:33:31 <AnMaster> what is the continued fraction for pi? :D
20:33:51 <oerjan> you can calculate it as long as you want but there is no known pattern
20:33:57 <oerjan> for e, there is a pattern
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20:36:18 <oerjan> e = [2,1,2,1,1,4,1,1,6,...] http://mathworld.wolfram.com/e.html
20:36:53 <oerjan> e = 2+1/(1+1/(2+1/(... etc.
20:37:24 <AnMaster> hah I just thought of a way to represent all digits of pi. Quite a lot of cheating but should work
20:38:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, except the 0 key is sticky
20:39:35 * oerjan didn't see AnMaster typing jla anywhere
20:40:01 <oerjan> put some r k and in that ;)
20:42:46 <oerjan> there are so called non-simple continued fractions where you don't always use 1 as the numerator. then there are patterns for pi iirc
20:43:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it known if pi is finite or infinite?
20:43:48 <oerjan> it is transcendental, which is stronger than irrational
20:44:40 <oerjan> not the solution to any polynomial equation with rationals
20:47:01 <AnMaster> I mean that pi and e are transcendental
20:48:25 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindemann-Weierstrass_theorem
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20:50:20 <AnMaster> too complicated at this time of the night. Yawn
20:50:45 <AnMaster> (not sure if it will be too complicated when I'm not sleepy as well)
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21:51:34 <tusho> AnMaster: pi has infinite digits, yes
21:52:56 <oerjan> yes, the fourth digit of pi is infinite
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22:00:03 * oerjan finds the BIG fly swattter
22:00:25 * oerjan starts with swatting a stray t
22:00:53 * oerjan then swats pikhq, to make him stay in one place
22:05:28 <oerjan> actually my real dream is to it to some of those motorbikes that use to drive around the central city on weekends
22:06:49 <oerjan> i mean, they are modified to _sound_ like flies, so should be treated like it
22:08:16 <pikhq> Well, my networking setup has become even *more* bizarre.
22:08:21 <pikhq> I've got 3 VLANs going.
22:08:33 * oerjan read that as networking soup
22:08:55 <pikhq> One is bridged to the Internet, one is routed into VPNs, and one is my personal LAN.
22:09:15 <oerjan> and this somehow seemed rational at the time?
22:09:42 <pikhq> Though half of it is an excuse to play with VLANs.
22:10:10 <pikhq> Which aren't that hard to set up in Linux, actually.
22:10:38 <tusho> pikhq: Half of your face is an excuse to play with VLANs
22:11:05 <oerjan> tusho: you burned? coffee too hot? hm, coffee...
22:16:12 <tusho> oerjan: I do not have coffee right now
22:16:42 * oerjan does, although not top quality
22:17:58 <tusho> i am considering coffee in the near future.
22:18:41 <oerjan> of course you're british, so maybe it was tea...
22:19:53 <tusho> oerjan: not in prescence of tea either although i do like tea
22:20:00 <tusho> i mean... tea is nice...
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22:25:22 <tusho> oerjan: should i get some tea or coffee?
22:26:30 <tusho> oerjan: i hate languages that have || and && returning booleans
22:26:36 <tusho> they should return one of their two arguments damnit
22:26:53 * tusho switches oerjan to C
22:26:55 <tusho> oerjan: should i get some tea or coffee?
22:28:42 <oerjan> since i don't have any tea (well, less than about 10 years old), you cannot have it either
22:28:54 <tusho> oerjan: interestin
22:32:52 <tusho> oerjan: do you prefer coffee or tea
22:33:29 <oerjan> i drink far more coffee
22:36:43 <tusho> oerjan: not the question
22:38:56 <oerjan> this coffee is not particularly good...
22:39:26 <oerjan> with good coffee, it's more even
22:40:12 <oerjan> also it depends how my stomach is feeling
22:42:09 <tusho> i think i'll go for tea soon... quite tired and feel like being warmer
22:42:57 <oerjan> NOOOO! DAMN YOU! LETTING ME SIT HERE WITH MY AWFUL COFFEE
22:44:18 <tusho> oerjan: let's put it this way
22:44:25 <tusho> there's gonna be far worse coffee out there
22:44:29 <tusho> also, you HAVE coffeee
22:44:34 <tusho> not that bad, surely
22:45:13 <oerjan> i think just hot water would have been an improvement :D
22:45:32 <tusho> oerjan: ah. yes. likely.
22:45:48 <tusho> it's coffee, isn't it?
22:45:56 <tusho> i mean, sure there are different goodnesses
22:46:02 <tusho> but it's not like coffee can be a terrible thing.
22:49:13 <oerjan> after careful deliberation, i have now poured out the coffee and replaced it with cold water
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22:50:29 <tusho> oerjan: that must be pretty bad coffee...
22:50:46 <oerjan> Nescafe Gold, actually
22:53:43 <oerjan> i keep it for emergencies. apparently this wasn't one.
22:53:55 <tusho> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4174519.stm
22:54:27 <oerjan> read it before, i think
23:19:41 <tusho> oerjan: i have decided on tea!
23:21:16 <oerjan> may the fleas of a thousand camels descend upon your nether regions
23:21:32 <tusho> oerjan: i'll send you some tea D:
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08:22:33 <pikhq> Stay, dammit. I know your Internet connection is stable...
08:22:39 <cherez> The sentiment is not appreciated.
08:22:42 <pikhq> Hell, it's hooked right next to mine.
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09:16:12 <oklofok> GregorR: damn you, i've highlighted you about both mips and hydra, and you haven't responded, but you have time to play with optbot like 24/7
09:21:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where is "UNDEF: D says 1/0 is inf (NaN or +infinity)" defined to be one of those two values
09:31:40 <oklofok> ieee 754 should have an exception for where the result is simply not *perfect*
09:32:05 <oklofok> this way you could actually use it even if you're doing math
09:32:43 <oklofok> i'm not saying there isn't one, my ieee 754 knowledge is limited to wikipedia, which didn't list the exceptions
09:34:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: IEEE 754 says it's +inf, and practically all floating point arithmetic uses approximately that
09:34:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does FPDP say it uses IEEE 754 anywhere?
09:35:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, issue: Erlang throws an exception at inf or nan
09:35:41 <AnMaster> but will mycology handle that?
09:36:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since I can't know if it was inf or nan that IEEE 754 would have produced?
09:36:21 <AnMaster> ** exception error: bad argument in an arithmetic expression
09:36:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can't you do if y == 0 then push whatever else push x/y
09:37:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure for division, but what about other stuff, you can get inf by multiplying enough
09:37:18 <Deewiant> or, push x/y `catch` if x == 0 push nan else push signbit(x) * inf
09:37:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it throws an exception if you get floating point infinity by multiplication? O_o
09:37:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it throws an exception if you get inf or nan
09:39:37 <Deewiant> so if you do 1e200 * 1e200 what do you get?
09:39:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, syntax error. doesn't like that syntx
09:40:40 <AnMaster> ** exception error: bad argument in an arithmetic expression
09:41:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes very strange design choice
09:43:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what would you do?
09:44:30 <AnMaster> I guess I could resort to using a linked in driver (a module coded in C that is loaded into erlang) but that seems quite complex.
09:45:01 <Deewiant> I'd probably catch the exceptions and figure it out
09:45:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm and I'm unable to find a copy of the IEEE 754 specs (for free at least)
09:46:58 <Deewiant> there's a lot of stuff there that you don't have to care about
09:47:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to know if I should treat it as nan +inf of -inf
09:47:38 <AnMaster> as they all generate the same exception
09:48:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hello.
09:48:20 <Deewiant> wikipedia has this level of info
09:48:26 <AnMaster> UNDEF: E says asin(2) is nan (actually complex: NaN) <-- from cfunge output
09:48:50 <Deewiant> I was talking about division there
09:49:35 <AnMaster> and I can't think of some good heuristics for finding out what inf
09:50:29 <Deewiant> x + y = -inf if that throws and y < x
09:50:56 <oklofok> what if x = -inf and y is like 100
09:51:10 <Deewiant> since it would have thrown previously :-P
09:51:19 <oklofok> oh i see i'm missing context yes.
09:51:38 <oklofok> but it's symmetric, how can there be a constraint on y but not x
09:51:53 <Deewiant> it is possible that you get the bit pattern for -inf pushed on the stack via other means
09:52:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since they are type tagged tuples
09:52:37 <Deewiant> so what happens if I do 00A (if A was the floating point addition instruction, can't remember)
09:53:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you know about that C compiler for Lisp machines? NULL not 0x0 for example and so on
09:53:50 <AnMaster> think efunge is something like that but for befunge :P
09:54:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, implementation defined
09:54:23 <Deewiant> whether the machine null pointer has value 0 or not is
09:54:32 <AnMaster> if 0x0 is used in pointer context however it is indeed true
09:54:40 <Deewiant> but the implementation should always convert it
09:54:48 <Deewiant> just like it is guaranteed that '1' == '0' + 1
09:54:56 <Deewiant> even though the charset might be different
09:55:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends on if you do int i = 0; char * = (char*)i;
09:55:20 <Deewiant> that might actually still work
09:55:30 <Deewiant> but char* x = *(char**)&i; won't
09:56:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and g/p will handle the tuples correctly. And any instructions like normal +-*/% will pop a dummy value instead
09:56:26 <AnMaster> since it is undefined what they will do on floating point values in FPDP
09:56:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? using normal + on two floating point numbers in befunge make no sense
09:57:06 <AnMaster> even if you use unions to store them
09:57:38 <AnMaster> anything that doesn't care if it is an int or not, use pop(), anything that needs an int use pop_int
09:57:45 <Deewiant> do you have to p a floating point before g works?
09:57:55 <Deewiant> or can you do 000p 00g and get 0 as floating point
09:58:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would be undefined. You would need to use the FPDP functions to create such a floating point number
09:58:54 <Deewiant> ah well, somewhat limiting but can't be helped I guess
09:59:05 <AnMaster> I asked Mike about this in an email, and he said ok basically :P
09:59:17 <oklofok> 11:56:38 AnMaster: Deewiant, oh? using normal + on two floating point numbers in befunge make no sense <<< what, no polymorphism?
09:59:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, waiting for email client to load
09:59:23 <Deewiant> mycology might use 0 to push floating point 0
09:59:34 <Deewiant> so if you run into problems that might explain it
09:59:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would reflect. And you invoke undefined behaviour
09:59:44 <Deewiant> or then it might not, I don't know
10:00:00 <AnMaster> blergh, haven't checked mail for two days
10:00:10 * AnMaster waits for about 500 mails to be downloaded
10:00:37 <AnMaster> the rest are mostly mailing lists
10:00:42 <Deewiant> you get a lot of spam then :-P
10:00:52 <Deewiant> and you still get a lot of mail, even with only 30% :-P
10:01:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you expect from lists like <projectname>-commits and such :P
10:01:43 <AnMaster> example: [Crossfire-cvs] SF.net SVN: crossfire:[9912] maps/trunk/quests
10:02:04 <Deewiant> meh, I'd read such through gmane :-P
10:02:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are you a developer on those projects though?
10:02:33 <Deewiant> even if I were I'd read through gmane
10:04:33 <Deewiant> but, something is starting in this classroom so I'm off ->
10:05:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, only thing he said was: "However if you cannot use standard functions to duplicate these numbers on the stack or read/write these numbers in funge-space, you may need to augment (add another fingerprint maybe) the extension to provide this ability."
10:05:26 <AnMaster> dup/swap/put/get/store with s/fetch with ' all works
10:05:56 <oklofok> is there a way to write like a ping pong in befunge
10:06:05 <oklofok> i'm not aware of all the fingerprints
10:06:15 <AnMaster> oklofok, using the NCRS or TERM fingerprint you should be able to do it I guess
10:06:42 <oklofok> of fingerprints + short descriptions
10:06:50 <AnMaster> TERM is basic terminal functions like moving cursor to another line and such, while NCRS is more or less full blown ncurses interface iirc
10:07:06 <AnMaster> cfunge has TERM but not NCRS so I don't know the NCRS details very well
10:07:51 <AnMaster> oklofok, hm, could be done I guess (rendering 3D image as ascii art or whatever) but it would be too slow to be usable
10:08:11 <oklofok> i was thinking like not ascii art
10:08:21 <oklofok> it's an awful way to draw stuff
10:08:23 <AnMaster> there is the 3DSP fingerprint to handle some vector operations on signle precision floating point vectors/matrices
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10:08:33 <AnMaster> oklofok, then nothing remotely portable
10:08:44 <AnMaster> RC/Funge got some "windows handler" thing
10:09:02 <AnMaster> so probably not usable for anything more than basic dialogs
10:09:51 <AnMaster> oklofok, you could render images using TURT I guess (turtle style like Logo)...
10:10:19 <AnMaster> like cfunge and ccbi don't implement the "display in window" only the "save to file" variant
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10:10:34 <AnMaster> and rcfunge that got render to window blocks until you close the window
10:10:47 <AnMaster> so you need the user to close the window every time you drawn to it
10:11:05 <AnMaster> oklofok, and it is still 2D so any 3D you would need to implement yourself
10:11:43 <oklofok> have we never met before? i implement everything myself
10:13:07 <AnMaster> oklofok, well I can't think of a sane way to do it. Nor of an insane one
10:13:29 <oklofok> sane way to do the 3d calculations yourself?
10:13:29 <AnMaster> don't know about that old glfunge thing, it used opengl for something iirc, but don't remember what
10:13:39 <AnMaster> oklofok, no, sane way to display it
10:13:43 <oklofok> sane way to draw textures and shit using turtles?
10:13:57 <oklofok> well i was commenting the latter thing, that it's 2d.
10:13:58 <AnMaster> oklofok, well you could draw it using TURT, but displaying it...
10:14:32 <oklofok> about displying it i have nothing to say, because it's you who has any idea about these fingreptinrts
10:14:39 <AnMaster> as I said the show to user command (that far from all implement) blocks until the window is closed in all interpreters I know
10:15:05 <AnMaster> you can certainly find lists of what each interpreter implements
10:15:22 <AnMaster> since new are added all the time
10:15:55 <oklofok> i can find them, the question is will you find them for me :)
10:16:09 <oklofok> perhaps i'll make my own "draw ip's to screen" fingerprint
10:16:19 <oklofok> so that you can create befunge code to move the ip's around
10:16:49 <oklofok> only a part of the codespace would be visible at any point, and only ip's would be seen
10:17:05 <oklofok> should be simple with threads to make something outta that
10:18:02 <oklofok> the fruit flies are everywhere :<
10:18:15 <oklofok> should throw those kebab remains away...
10:18:27 <oklofok> they've sat there for like 2 weeks
10:19:15 <AnMaster> oklofok, also the speed would be horrible. cfunge is the fastest interpreter out there. With -O3 -march=k8 -m64 it can manage something like 12000 instructions per second at best on my 2 GHz AMD64. Of course it depends on what funge instruction. I calculated that using a befunge 93 program that implements game of life
10:20:20 <oklofok> do you optimize parts that aren't self-modifying?
10:20:34 <oklofok> befunge is one of the best languages for compilations
10:20:43 <oklofok> because you can always compile it better
10:21:02 <AnMaster> but the issue is then you tie yourself to a specific instruction set
10:21:46 <oklofok> no, because i don't know what that is
10:22:02 <oklofok> seems it's a program of some sort
10:22:04 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Level_Virtual_Machine
10:22:26 <oklofok> i'm thinking just making everything myself :-)
10:22:44 <oklofok> i'm a programmer, not an installer!
10:23:18 <oklofok> llvm is like something you can then compile to something real?
10:23:50 <oklofok> because that's something i probably couldn't do, as real things are full of annoying details, especially x86
10:24:36 <oklofok> i'm leaving, you can answer my ponderings while i'm gone if you wish ->
10:28:13 <AnMaster> <oklofok> llvm is like something you can then compile to something real? <-- yes
10:28:18 <AnMaster> there is also a JIT for it iirc
10:29:31 <AnMaster> llvm byte code is more or less platform independent. You can then either interpret it (it JITs it) or you can compile it into machine code and link it to a binary
10:30:10 <AnMaster> llvm can also optimize the byte code.
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11:55:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "UNDEF: N says -0 is 0.000000 (-0)" <-- hm???
11:56:49 <oerjan> IEEE distinguishes positive and negative zero
11:57:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, well nowhere does it say FPDP requires IEEE floating point actually
11:57:47 <fizzie> Which might be why it's UNDEF?
11:58:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, no it is undef because comparing floating point is tricky in befunge
11:58:47 <AnMaster> "Because floating point equality is, with epsilons, too tricky, and without them, poorly defined, and because rounding with I is too inaccurate, results of calculations will be UNDEF. The precisely correct answer will follow, to 6 decimal places: the calculated result can be compared to it."
12:00:03 <fizzie> I guess "precisely correct" here will mean IEEE, then; as said, it's "poorly defined".
12:00:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, well even in cfunge they don't match in the last decimal place. Nor in CCBI iirc
12:01:09 <fizzie> Although you don't need to resort to the IEEE explanation in this case: -0 is -0 in the mathematical sense, too.
12:02:43 <AnMaster> it doesn't seem to have sense to have a signed 0
12:03:56 <oerjan> it makes 1/0 come out the right infinity
12:04:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, and 1/0 makes even less sense to me
12:04:59 <oerjan> and some transcendental functions are discontinuous at 0
12:05:51 <fizzie> It's also very common in floating point representations, which tend to be of the sign-mantissa-exponent variety often, no matter how much sense it might fail to make make.
12:06:55 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makemake_(dwarf_planet)
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12:11:24 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_zero
12:30:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in CCBI they all match down to the last decimal place, except in FPSP of course. :-)
12:31:22 * oerjan wonders exactly how you define "poorly defined" again
12:31:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you use higher precision internally then?
12:31:46 <Slereah2> oerjan : "This sentence is not poorly defined"
12:32:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the only one that differs is the last one, 2^-4 or something, anyway
12:37:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I can't make my FPDP IEEE conformat for non-finite maths since it will be a hell to handle if one of the operands already are inf or nan
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12:38:07 <AnMaster> but since FPDP doesn't say it have to be IEEE 754 conforming I can get away with that
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12:41:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example inf+(-inf) seems to be nan in my tests
12:42:04 <ais523> also inf+-inf is NaN IIRC
12:42:07 <ais523> what else could it be?
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12:42:35 <AnMaster> ais523, except in erlang any result of nan or inf is an exception, very irritating
12:43:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: inf-inf is nan, that's correct
12:43:36 <tusho> AnMaster: i think you've forgotten: the logs go by our own clients
12:43:42 <tusho> ais523: what does your client say?
12:43:45 <tusho> when did you send your hi
12:43:47 <ais523> tusho: that's an unworkable rule as we have different clocks
12:43:55 <tusho> it's not that unworkable
12:43:57 <ais523> and let me open up the log to get the seconds, this thing only shows the minutes by default
12:43:58 <tusho> as our clocks are not that different
12:44:08 <tusho> anyway it's a better solution than the tunes.org logs
12:44:14 <tusho> because that removes the reflex time altogether
12:44:26 <tusho> AnMaster: so is mine.
12:44:28 <AnMaster> you can calculate difference against it
12:44:40 <tusho> <message id="ESLMBSD1ZX1" received="2008-09-22 12:44:16 +0100">mån sep 22 11:44:14 UTC 2008 <span class="encoding error">incompatible encoding</span></message>
12:44:44 <tusho> (yeah colloquy logs as xml :|)
12:45:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it should be 0 IMO ;P. Anyway I don't plan to make my FPDP IEEE 754, it is undef. and mycology does try to depend on 0 being a fpdp 0 too
12:45:03 <tusho> so I am 1hr,2sec ahead of anmaster
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12:45:21 <AnMaster> and the 2 secs are probably irc lag
12:45:27 <tusho> so my clock is correct
12:45:31 <tusho> let's assume ais523's is too
12:45:56 <tusho> <message id="BZGL80B1ZX1" received="2008-09-22 12:42:36 +0100"><span class="member">ais523</span>: HI</message>
12:46:12 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
12:46:14 <ais523> tusho: I pasted it in-channel
12:46:22 <ais523> did it not come through?
12:46:22 <tusho> no you did not ais523
12:46:24 <ais523> (stupid connection problems)
12:46:33 <tusho> my clock is = AnMaster's
12:46:43 <AnMaster> by 2 seconds, which could be irc lag
12:47:11 <tusho> mine is sync'd to time.euro.apple.com
12:47:12 <ais523> [Mon Sep 22 2008] [12:42:47] <ais523> hi tusho
12:47:14 <tusho> os x does it by default
12:47:16 <ais523> [Mon Sep 22 2008] [12:42:51] <tusho> ais523: HI
12:47:20 <tusho> <message id="BZGL80B1ZX1" received="2008-09-22 12:42:36 +0100"><span class="member">ais523</span>: HI</message>
12:47:28 <ais523> [Mon Sep 22 2008] [12:42:52] <ais523> also, ugh
12:47:32 <ais523> [Mon Sep 22 2008] [12:42:53] <tusho> er
12:47:33 <tusho> ais523: that's not important
12:47:36 <ais523> [Mon Sep 22 2008] [12:42:53] <AnMaster> and hi tusho
12:47:40 <ais523> [Mon Sep 22 2008] [12:42:55] <tusho> hi ais523
12:47:44 <ais523> [Mon Sep 22 2008] [12:43:05] <AnMaster> ais523 won by 4 seconds
12:47:45 <tusho> ais523: STOP FLOODING
12:48:03 <tusho> anyway, point is, I beat you by 11 seconds
12:48:04 <ais523> tusho: I only pasted 7 lines, and my round-trip ping time is 33 seconds so your "stop that" came far too late
12:48:07 <tusho> give or take a second or so
12:48:12 <ais523> and no, because our clocks are obviously different
12:48:22 <tusho> do your thing again
12:48:43 <tusho> AnMaster: try again
12:48:47 <tusho> ais523: paste his line from the logs
12:48:51 <ais523> tusho: our clocks are within 1s of each other
12:48:51 <AnMaster> tusho, I did that with intention
12:49:04 <ais523> and no, I don't want to freeze up the computer again to open the logs, my #esoteric logs are massive
12:49:04 <tusho> ais523: probably irc lag
12:49:17 <tusho> anyway, point is, i beat you
12:49:22 <ais523> tusho: mine and yours, I was CTCP TIMEing you
12:49:30 <AnMaster> tusho, also since you use a script it doesn't count
12:49:54 <AnMaster> oh and you are such a bad looser you can't even admit you loose
12:50:03 <tusho> we just checked it and i won
12:50:10 <tusho> and...that makes me a sore loser?
12:50:16 <AnMaster> <ais523> and no, I don't want to freeze up the computer again to open the logs, my #esoteric logs are massive
12:50:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I never plan to delete any of the logs in question, and they're easier to grep if they're all one file
12:50:56 <tusho> ais523: why not just tail the log
12:50:58 <tusho> to get his message
12:51:08 <tusho> grep 'mån sep 22 11:48:43 UTC 2008' esoteric.log
12:51:14 <ais523> tusho: I could do that easily enough but that would involve going through the filesystem to find the log
12:51:22 <ais523> I just used Konversation's open-log command
12:51:30 <ais523> which takes a while on a large log
12:51:34 <ais523> it is tailed, but to 1MB
12:51:39 <ais523> which still takes a while to open
12:52:25 <tusho> heh, a new crop of isitchristmas.com sites
12:52:51 <tusho> http://isitbirthday.com/ -> http://isitafuckingirritatingbrowser.com/ -> http://www.isbushgone.com/
12:53:17 <AnMaster> ais523, how long is this "while"?
12:53:26 <fizzie> Given the amount of lag in the IRC network and that one's own messages aren't really in a fair fight, I don't see any other way of resolving "who was first" disputes than a trusted third party, like the tunes.org logs.
12:53:30 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe about 10 seconds
12:53:38 <ais523> I think Konversation spends a while rendering everything in the log though
12:53:43 <tusho> the whole point is
12:53:46 <AnMaster> ais523, how long does it take to load KDE?
12:53:51 <tusho> how fast we can type and get it entered
12:54:03 <tusho> so, we compare when we sent at -this- end
12:54:05 <AnMaster> $ du -bsh /usr/kde/3.5/lib/libkdecore.so.4.2.0
12:54:06 <AnMaster> 2.5M /usr/kde/3.5/lib/libkdecore.so.4.2.0
12:54:14 <ais523> AnMaster: probably about 90 seconds while the rest of the computer's loading, as I use Gnome by default, it's much faster if loading KDE's the only thing I'm doing
12:54:17 <AnMaster> that indicates that just one library is larger than that 1 MB tail
12:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ok you got a slow computer
12:54:42 <ais523> I think it's rendering that's the problem, not physically loading the file
12:55:06 <AnMaster> from that I hit enter startx to KDE is fully loaded: maybe 15 seconds or so
12:55:21 <ais523> AnMaster: does your computer run KDE by default?
12:55:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't start X by default. but it is the default when I enter startx
12:55:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so what, the actual size as opposed to the disk usage?
12:55:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes that is the effect of it
12:55:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I normally use ls -l to determine the size of a file
12:56:04 <AnMaster> tusho, sure but the computer is a few years old
12:56:06 <tusho> this imac takes 40-60 seconds to boot up from power button to the gui :P
12:56:10 <tusho> but that's due to the use of EFI and such
12:56:15 <tusho> as opposed to the BIOS
12:56:23 <Deewiant> ais523: but then you get it in bytes and reading 13857624 isn't easy enough
12:56:28 <AnMaster> tusho, ah well I can beat that, from grub to login prompt it takes 10 seconds
12:56:39 <tusho> AnMaster: that's not fair.
12:56:41 <ais523> there's an option for that anyway
12:56:46 <tusho> AnMaster: i am talking about from bootup to full gui syste
12:56:47 <Deewiant> ais523: I always want du --si which I think only du supports :-)
12:56:54 <AnMaster> tusho, well bios to grub takes about 14 seconds
12:57:10 <tusho> AnMaster: wanna measure that?
12:57:11 <ais523> $ ls -l --si squeak.image
12:57:11 <ais523> -rwxr--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 17M 2008-08-10 21:18 squeak.image
12:57:16 <tusho> turn x on by default, use a stopwatch
12:57:24 <tusho> i bet you can't get to a login prompt in 35 seconds.
12:57:34 <ais523> my bootup is really slow due to all the crap I have installed
12:57:37 <AnMaster> I don't have xdm or kdm installed tusho
12:57:39 <fizzie> The iBook seems to take a long long long long long time to boot to OS X login screen, but usually I just wake it up from sleep.
12:57:46 <AnMaster> login then startx is the only way on this system
12:57:49 <tusho> AnMaster: then don't try and give your own measurements, because it's not a fair comparison
12:58:14 <tusho> AnMaster: because i am talking about an automated process from the initial electrical turnon to a login screen, how long that takes
12:58:17 <AnMaster> tusho, loading full KDE would take longer than loading xdm
12:58:20 <tusho> this mac is the fastest i've ever seen
12:58:28 <ais523> if we're going for unfair comparisons, sudo su takes me about 5 seconds on here, which is the time it takes me to type my sudo password
12:58:29 <tusho> and it has tons of daemons and apps running at startup
12:58:47 <tusho> ais523: oh yeah??? well my 'true' runs in -3ms!
12:58:52 <ais523> and tusho, not everyone /has/ an automated process from initial turnon to login screen
12:58:56 <AnMaster> tusho, well I measured time to grub (14.2 seconds) and grub to console login prompt (10.1 seconds) about 2 weeks ago
12:59:00 <tusho> ais523: of course.
12:59:05 <tusho> so they can't give their times :P
12:59:09 <tusho> because it's an irrelevant comparison
12:59:14 <AnMaster> tusho, so adding those you get 24.3 seconds
12:59:23 <AnMaster> then you can add time for startx
12:59:30 <tusho> AnMaster: OS X starts the full system (like KDE) before login prompt
12:59:47 <tusho> so I guess for a fair comparison with a linux system you'd have to make an automatic login for the test
12:59:51 <AnMaster> tusho, it doesn't load a lot of stuff before login
13:00:07 * ais523 wonders whether Gnome or KDE is faster
13:00:09 <AnMaster> like battery menu when I tested
13:00:13 <ais523> I'd guess KDE, based on my experiences with both
13:00:21 <tusho> kde is faster, ironically
13:00:39 <AnMaster> tusho, so in fact linux is at disadvantage here
13:00:51 <AnMaster> since my measurement will include load time to full desktop
13:01:02 <AnMaster> which is a lot less code to load
13:01:19 <tusho> AnMaster: okay, make 'startx' your login shell or something then
13:01:30 <tusho> then it would be fair
13:01:41 <AnMaster> tusho, why isn't measuring each section and adding them up fair?
13:02:07 <tusho> AnMaster: because of the time taken to transition from each section
13:02:30 <AnMaster> tusho, that is user type type time yes to enter password and such, but I don't see how that is relevant?
13:02:52 <tusho> that is not what i meant.
13:03:18 <AnMaster> tusho, then what *do* you mean?
13:04:54 <AnMaster> and you refuse to explain it, *shrug*
13:06:28 <oerjan> A _true_ scotsman wouldn't need an explanation
13:06:45 <AnMaster> <ais523> and tusho, not everyone /has/ an automated process from initial turnon to login screen
13:06:55 <tusho> so then they are irrelevant to the comparison.
13:07:05 <AnMaster> tusho, and you can give relevant times by adding up all the automated sections
13:07:32 <tusho> AnMaster: not valid when every second makes a difference
13:08:24 <AnMaster> tusho, well then we can't know if your measurement is that exact either
13:08:31 <AnMaster> so the whole thing is pointless anyway
13:08:42 <tusho> because i measured it.
13:08:53 <AnMaster> tusho, well a human isn't that exact
13:09:40 <tusho> i am good at counting seconds manually, besides, i'll redo it with a stopwatch later
13:09:58 <fizzie> What _was_ your measurement, then? I only saw that "40-60 seconds" figure.
13:10:05 <AnMaster> tusho, well I used a stopwatch, but even so it may be a second or so off
13:10:14 <AnMaster> because humans aren't that exact
13:10:23 <tusho> fizzie: i forget, it was a while ago
13:10:33 <tusho> AnMaster: no, but 1s doesn't make all that much difference
13:11:40 <AnMaster> anyway my timings: 14.2 seconds from power button to grub prompt, 10.1 seconds from selection in grub to login prompt on console, 15.3 seconds from startx to "loading KDE dialog" closed
13:12:54 <AnMaster> my grub doesn't use a timeout at all so that is irrelevant, + the all boot entries are password protected (oh yes bios is password protected too), not a lot of security, but something is better than nothing
13:13:08 <AnMaster> yes I know bios pass is easy to crack
13:13:14 <tusho> if someone has my hardware they're fucked, i figure
13:13:31 <tusho> it's not hard to stick a floppy linux distro in and read from the disk
13:13:42 <AnMaster> tusho, depends on the boot order you set
13:13:54 <tusho> AnMaster: but as you said - bios password is easy to crack
13:13:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I've seen a bios password cracked, the person did it by shorting out a capacitor on the motherboard temporarily
13:14:04 <ais523> and the BIOS forgot what the password was
13:14:05 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed, but it require some knowledge
13:14:20 <tusho> AnMaster: true, true
13:14:28 <tusho> i don't really care though, my priority is not letting it get stolen
13:14:34 <tusho> or letting anyone near it who i don't want to be
13:14:44 <tusho> anyway, i have autologin on and all that stuff because of the aforementioned reasons
13:15:06 <tusho> also, i am hideously environmentally unfriendly because i just boot this from standby after the night
13:15:12 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and timings on my laptop would be impossible you would say since I need to enter password for harddisk encryption at boot there
13:15:15 <tusho> better than actually leaving it on, i guess
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13:18:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I special case {0, 0} to work around the "using 0 as FPDP 0" bug in mycology now. But I hope you fix it
13:19:50 <ais523> what floating point number does all-bits-zero correspond to?
13:20:26 <ais523> yes, I was wondering what it actually meant
13:20:31 <Deewiant> it corresponds to 0 in IEEE-754
13:20:31 <AnMaster> ais523, except in efunge floats from FPDP are tagged tuples
13:20:41 <tusho> Deewiant: i think you are correct
13:20:48 <tusho> IEEE-754 is a good standard to adhere to
13:20:50 <tusho> AnMaster: like POSIX!
13:21:04 <AnMaster> tusho, certainly, but it is undefined in FPDP
13:21:09 <tusho> anyway, if you ask me FPDP should mean IEEE-754
13:21:13 <AnMaster> so well you can't expect anything sensible
13:21:16 <tusho> AnMaster: it's a mike riley fingerprint
13:21:21 <tusho> i'm surprised it HAS a specification
13:21:39 <AnMaster> well maybe, but consider efunge a Dethstation 9000 if you want
13:21:52 <tusho> somehow I'm doubting Deewiant cares about dethstation 9000s :D
13:22:01 <ais523> AnMaster: you've never seen a true Deathstation 9000, efunge is more like a Deathstation 2 by comparison
13:22:07 <tusho> i don't care about deathstation 9000s
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13:22:22 <tusho> a similar system (i.e. not literally one) - my programs won't work
13:22:36 <tusho> i assume a modern system - unix-like or not - for my sanity
13:22:49 <ais523> tusho: what about gcc-bf?
13:22:59 <ais523> I've expended a lot of effort on trying to make it not a Deathstation
13:23:07 <ais523> but I'm not sure to what extent it's succeeded
13:23:08 <tusho> ais523: if it's not too much work
13:23:11 <tusho> because that is amusing
13:23:17 <Deewiant> a deathstation 9000 funge interpreter would easily break mycology since it tries to test UNDEF stuff to see what they do
13:23:20 <ais523> (I even made int 32-bits, because everyone seems to assume it is nowadays)
13:23:36 <ais523> Deewiant: hmm... some of it's undefined, some's just unspecified
13:24:01 <ais523> I think, for instance, you can imply from the spec that # across the right edge either hits or jumps over the left edge of the program, for instance, nothing else
13:26:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok not that bad. but I plan to make efunge do unusual but kind of sane stuff
13:26:30 <AnMaster> and I did contact Mike Riley about it
13:26:43 <AnMaster> not the IEEE bit, but the type tagged tuples bit
13:27:06 <Deewiant> well that's just an implementation detail
13:27:20 <Deewiant> did he specifically say that it's ok for "00A" to reflect, for instance
13:27:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/9NkK4p98.html
13:27:54 <ais523> well, 00A does reflect, you need to load a fingerprint first if you want it to do something
13:28:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I can special case 00 in the pop double code, but I can hardly do it in all cases
13:29:08 <Deewiant> yeah so he's saying "my spec sucks, do what you want"
13:29:16 <Deewiant> why can't he just write stuff properly :-P
13:29:18 <AnMaster> anyway the format is {double, <actual value>}{double, dummy}
13:29:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then I wouldn't have been able to implement it
13:29:43 <Deewiant> that would have been fine as long as it has well-defined behaviour :-P
13:29:48 <ais523> AnMaster: can you p a FPDP tuple onto the playfield, g it back, and have it still work?
13:29:53 <tusho> related: http://tusho.net/mkry/
13:29:56 <tusho> dunno if ais523's seen that
13:29:59 <tusho> Deewiant and AnMaster have though
13:30:21 <ais523> AnMaster: can you p a FPDP tuple onto the playfield, then run into it with the IP and have an appropriate command happen?
13:30:23 <AnMaster> ais523, same for swap/dup on stack and such
13:30:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what about $ in FPDP, will it pop one FPDP value or two
13:30:40 <Deewiant> will you need one or two to pop one value*
13:30:41 <AnMaster> ais523, no because the internal representation is undefined in the spec
13:30:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it will pop one cell
13:31:07 <AnMaster> just that one cell is a dummy cell
13:31:08 <Deewiant> strictly speaking even that is UNDEF
13:31:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well ccbi will pop one cell too
13:31:20 <ais523> well, you could reason on the basis that if you have 2^64 different floating point numbers and p them all onto the playfield, all possible commands have to end up there somewhere
13:31:21 <Deewiant> which again makes the FPDP spec as it currently is rather useless
13:31:32 <ais523> then you could search the playfield to find the one that was y, for instance
13:31:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why do you need to know the internal format of the numbers?
13:31:35 <ais523> then run into it with the IP
13:31:40 <AnMaster> the interface functions are there for a reason
13:31:47 <ais523> yes, that would be ridiculous, but I don't seen any reason why it doesn't work in theory
13:31:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: now I'm just thinking about how to pop a single value, which is evidently impossible without invoking undef behaviour
13:32:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it says two cells, so $$ will do it obviously
13:32:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no it doesn't say that anywhere
13:32:29 <AnMaster> since $ operates on cells on the stack
13:32:40 <Deewiant> it can be one cell or 64 cells
13:33:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can use "I$", I think.
13:33:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it used to say it back at the webarchive days
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13:33:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm 99.99% sure about that
13:33:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: or did it say it or something like "A (ah al bh bl -- ch cl)" which makes little sense on its own :-P
13:34:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well iirc it said two cells
13:34:27 <ais523> I remember it having two-word things in the title at some point, like that example above
13:34:30 <AnMaster> anyway efunge won't have FPSP since erlang only got it's "semi-IEEE" floating point
13:34:42 <AnMaster> erlang will throw and exception on inf or nan
13:35:12 <ais523> AnMaster: even quiet NaN?
13:35:15 <ais523> if so that violates the specs
13:35:26 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't claim to be conforming
13:35:30 <ais523> as there are two sorts of NaNs, quiet and signaling, only the signaling one throws an exception
13:35:42 <Deewiant> ais523: it throws an exception on 1.0e200 + 1.0e200
13:35:46 <ais523> (incidentally, NaNs can carry a payload too)
13:36:15 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that and 1.0/0.0 also throws an exception (and no it is not integer division, that would be the "div" operator")
13:36:17 <Deewiant> yeah, special NaNs would be the main reason why being able to mess with the bit representation directly would be handy
13:36:59 <ais523> 1./0. being signaling NaN would strike me as a reasonable implementation choice
13:37:07 <ais523> and so that's a similar behaviour for the wrong reason
13:38:00 <AnMaster> ais523, any nan or inf. And well it doesn't claim to fully conform to IEEE 754
13:38:15 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I understand
13:38:30 * ais523 wonders what floatlib.i does in such cases
13:38:36 <ais523> that isn't conforming fully to IEEE754 either
13:38:48 <ais523> the author said that the only reason it resembles IEEE754 was that it was convenient
13:40:28 <AnMaster> well erlang does use floating point of the system, it just checks after each operation for any of those conditions
13:40:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also it seems to turn -0 into 0 at least in output
13:41:09 <ais523> AnMaster: does it exception on underflow?
13:41:16 <ais523> What's the result of 1.0e-200 / 1.0e200?
13:41:49 <ais523> ok, it's trying to do floating point like maths, I think
13:41:55 <ais523> which can be a bad idea in programming
13:42:23 <tusho> ais523: works well for haskell
13:42:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well efunge is bignum. Mycology handles that, but that other test suite (Fungus) locks up on it
13:42:35 <tusho> but erlang was designed by programmers
13:42:37 <tusho> not mathematicians
13:42:43 <tusho> haskell was designed by mathematicians
13:42:49 <tusho> so erlang doing floating point like maths is probably bad
13:44:23 <AnMaster> tusho, so the floating point in Haskell is not fully IEEE 754?
13:44:39 <tusho> AnMaster: It has different types.
13:44:49 <tusho> For IEEE 754 and mathematical.
13:48:17 <oerjan> tusho: not without some extra libraries i think
13:49:07 <oerjan> anyway Double in ghc is IEEE
13:50:41 <oerjan> CReal is for the ffi, i guess
13:51:34 <oerjan> they're not necessarily different in practice
13:54:29 <oerjan> hm they are in lambdabot
13:57:12 <oerjan> hm wait, maybe CReal really is unbounded, that was a lot of digits for pi
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14:04:53 <oerjan> hey it was discussed on #haskell just two days ago. clearly i've been away too long...
14:12:22 <oerjan> also, i was confusing it with CDouble and CFloat
14:34:24 <Deewiant> CReal is in an external library
14:34:55 <Deewiant> there's Ratio for precise fractions
14:35:13 <Deewiant> and then there's Double and Float which are mostly IEEE 754
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14:37:25 * AnMaster decides to put efunge's FPDP aside for now until he figures out a cleaner way to code some stuff in it.
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15:24:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what should FIXP B (acos) do on non-valid input?
15:25:05 <Deewiant> whatever, I guess you can reflect
15:26:05 <Deewiant> probably just casts the NaN that comes out to an integer
15:26:25 * ais523 wonders what (int)nan() is anyway
15:26:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well mycology doesn't like that you reflect on nan from B in FIXP
15:27:46 <AnMaster> GOOD: T says tan(35) is 0.7002
15:28:14 <AnMaster> BAD: B says acos(-1) isn't 180
15:28:26 <AnMaster> or is the messages totally different?
15:28:31 <AnMaster> and unrelated to the BAD ones?
15:28:44 <AnMaster> not having matching GOOD/BAD confuses
15:29:23 <Deewiant> for the reflections, it evidently gives the exact code
15:30:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but it is in degrees
15:31:28 <Deewiant> acos :: [-1,1] -> [0,360) for FIXP :-P
15:31:48 <AnMaster> parentheses didn't match up they way they should
15:32:51 * oerjan hopes AnMaster is not referring to the [0,360)
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15:39:56 <oklofok> angles expressed on a scale from zero to random in base random with randomly created characters in a sentence written in a natlang, could this get any worse
15:40:38 <ais523> The angle is 49823y4pcnq283yn4p9cq283y5p9q235.
15:41:10 <oklofok> well, random base that happens to be the convention :)
15:43:00 <oklofok> AnMaster: i don't actually just hate physical objects artificially created for a specific purpose, like i said earlier, i also hate backwards-compatibility, and all kinds of conventions
15:43:25 <oklofok> err, conventions that aren't perfect, but are used because of backwards-compatibility
15:43:32 <oklofok> i don't hate *all* conventions
15:44:28 <oklofok> also i'm out of stuff to read :<
15:44:33 <oklofok> i mean stuff i have to read
15:45:54 <oerjan> you have to read Ulysses. now!
15:46:50 <oklofok> and i only like reading computer/math related books
15:47:13 <oklofok> and sounds like tragedy, yes, not sure what book that is
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15:47:50 <oklofok> seems it wasn't a shakespearean masterpiece of great tragedy
15:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes 00 false.
15:49:34 -!- ais523 has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | MistyRoses are Red, Violets are Blue.
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15:54:07 <AnMaster_> <AnMaster> oerjan, as for [) I do know what it means, though I don't know the English name for it
15:54:44 <oerjan> i didn't get that last one. many have spoken since.
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15:56:05 <oerjan> or should that be semi-
15:57:05 <ais523> I'd say semi-, I think
15:59:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(mathematics)
15:59:24 * ais523 just received an email saying that the doors won't work again for a couple of weeks...
16:00:08 <ais523> upgrading the computer system that validates our swipe cards
16:00:10 <AnMaster> and where will you chat on irc from?
16:00:25 <AnMaster> ais523, how can that take more than a few days!?
16:00:34 <ais523> various other places, there are a few open-access labs I can go in sometimes
16:00:48 <ais523> also wifi tends to carry, sometimes that helps when it isn't raining
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16:07:03 <AnMaster> still ais523 how can that take more than a few days!?
16:07:09 <AnMaster> not sure if that went through or not
16:07:10 <oerjan> ah yes. i think pikhq took the flyswatter, i'm afraid.
16:07:25 <ais523> AnMaster: don't ask me
16:07:31 <ais523> because I don't have a clue either
16:07:56 <ais523> it's some huge bureaucratic thing
16:08:00 <ais523> probably involves more than one department
16:08:10 <ais523> also it's September so there are new students
16:08:13 <AnMaster> ais523, still ask, asking doesn't hurt
16:08:24 <ais523> anyway my card seems to be mysteriously working anyway
16:08:30 <ais523> so with any luck it won't affect me...
16:08:35 <AnMaster> ais523, hm at what level are you studying currently?
16:09:15 <ais523> I'm a fourth-year student, MEng Electronic and Computer Engineering
16:10:32 <ais523> a qualification that generally requires 4 years to get
16:10:54 <ais523> universities vary about whether it's a 1-year upgrade from Bachelor of Engineering, or if it's awarded all in one go
16:11:02 <ais523> my course is an all-in-one-go one
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17:19:04 <AnMaster> wtf is up with my connection today
17:19:45 <ais523> I'm still doing other things
17:19:54 <ais523> if someone else wants to finish the tricky parts I'd be grateful
17:20:06 <AnMaster> ais523, I wouldn't manage it :P
17:20:10 <ais523> but I need to figure out exactly what the build system is before even being able to upload it in a form that others can use
17:20:33 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? how do you currently build it then?
17:20:42 <ais523> a whole load of shell scripts
17:20:56 <AnMaster> ais523, also I assume it is against last gcc? gcc 4.3.x
17:20:57 <ais523> and rely on me having set up everything by hand first
17:21:08 <ais523> and it's against the version of the source in the Ubuntu repos
17:21:17 <AnMaster> ais523, no clue what one that is
17:22:03 <tusho> ais523: is that under gpl3?
17:23:28 <ais523> it's not like the resulting programs are GPL3, though
17:23:36 <ais523> they're just a mix of LGPL and 28 different BSD-style licences
17:23:42 <tusho> but i was considering contributing to gpl3
17:24:02 <ais523> the part of it I haven't done isn't gpl3
17:24:05 <ais523> it's currently "unspecified"
17:24:16 <tusho> i mean, once it'sdone
17:24:17 <ais523> and I'll decide on a licence for it later
17:24:33 <ais523> the gpl3 code is gcc, and the code that goes into it
17:24:36 <tusho> though allow me to suggest BSD or MIT or the Eiffel Public License
17:24:43 <ais523> newlib has a crazy permissive licence
17:24:51 <ais523> and bf-ld can be anything really as I wrote it all myself
17:25:03 <tusho> ais523: Eiffel Public License is pretty esoteric
17:25:05 <ais523> as does libbf, but that will almost certainly be BSD
17:25:10 <tusho> it's like BSD or MIT, but shorter
17:28:23 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the code that won't be gpl3?
17:28:41 <AnMaster> but didn't you say you would use newlib?
17:28:44 <ais523> the stuff that's linked into the resulting program
17:29:00 <ais523> there's libbf as well which fills in gaps in newlib
17:29:04 <ais523> like I/O and filesystem
17:29:10 <ais523> which the OS normally takes care of
17:29:23 <ais523> also, there's the assembler/linker, which is an important part of it
17:29:30 <ais523> I'm writing that by hand in Perl and haven't chosen a license yet
17:30:32 <ais523> also, things like hash-tables built into the language are nice for doing linking
17:30:55 <AnMaster> damn the connection is failing again
17:31:26 <AnMaster> ais523, but how will you be able to call that from inside the bf program?
17:31:43 <ais523> generally speaking you don't call the linker from inside the resulting executable
17:31:53 <tusho> AnMaster thinks you are writing gcc in bf, ais523
17:32:00 <tusho> either that or he doesn't know what a linker is.
17:32:24 <ais523> I'm not doing shared libraries if that's what you're wondering about
17:32:58 <ais523> although I'm writing the code such that I could make it a bytecode compiler with a brainfuck-based VM, rather than compiling directly into brainfuck, if I wanted to
17:33:18 <ais523> the second version would make it possible to compile files into executables then run the executables from inside the brainfuck program
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17:36:16 <ais523> wow, I'm getting quite good at standing on one leg and balancing a laptop on my knee, whilst swiping for a door with the other hand
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17:37:00 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/Gjgh1u98.html
17:37:02 <AnMaster> and first thing tomorrow I'm going to call the ISP and complain (they have closed the call center for the day)
17:37:37 <ais523> the way it works is that I compile everything into asm, both the program and the standard libraries
17:38:00 <ais523> then statically link the program and the required parts of the stdlib together
17:38:07 <ais523> then assemble the result into a single brainfuck program
17:38:12 <ais523> and yes, the filesystem isn't executable
17:38:44 <AnMaster> ais523, hm and it isn't the real file system?
17:38:52 <ais523> yes, it's a fake filesystem
17:39:02 <ais523> the code for it is surprisingly readable as it has pretty much nothing to do with brainfuck
17:39:15 <ais523> to allocate space for the files
17:39:18 <AnMaster> ais523, is it possible to bundle data files on it?
17:39:30 <AnMaster> some programs need to read data or settings files and such
17:39:36 <ais523> not atm, but I hope it will be eventuall
17:39:50 <ais523> no technical reason why not, just haven't written that part yet
17:39:56 <AnMaster> ais523, hm how does that code work, if it is C I would like to read it
17:40:05 <oklofok> ais523: wow, I'm getting quite good at standing on one leg and balancing a laptop on my knee, whilst swiping for a door with the other hand <<< elaborate
17:40:19 <ais523> oklofok: I often carry a laptop out of this room to get something to eat
17:40:24 <ais523> the problem is then getting back into the room again
17:40:32 <ais523> the door is weighted, and needs to be pulled open
17:40:41 <ais523> and will only open within a few seconds of swiping a card
17:40:54 <ais523> also I'm not strong enough to hold my laptop in one hand safely
17:41:20 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? need to body build ;) or get a macbook air ;P
17:41:32 <AnMaster> just watch out so you don't cut yourself ;)
17:42:07 <ais523> so: my solution is to balance the card on my laptop, walk to the door, then stand on one leg, balance the laptop on the other leg with my left hand for support, swipe the card with my right hand, drop the card on the laptop, open the door with my right hand, then as it swings shut hold the laptop with both hands, put my left leg on the ground and hook the door with my right leg
17:42:16 <ais523> ironically this is the simplest method I've found
17:42:51 <AnMaster> ais523, you could fold the laptop, carry it under one arm
17:43:17 <AnMaster> ais523, might disconnect you for a moment though ;P
17:43:35 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I like to do it seamlessly so you lot don't realise what's happened unless I tell you
17:43:42 <ais523> also it makes an interesting topic of conversation
17:44:33 <oklofok> how much does your laptop weigh / how weak are you?
17:45:07 <ais523> oklofok: it's actually pretty heavy
17:45:54 <ais523> AnMaster: http://code.eso-std.org/gcc-bf/libbf/libbf.c
17:46:15 <ais523> AnMaster: that + newlib = standard library for gcc-bf
17:46:47 <ais523> note that it's untested and probably buggy
17:47:46 <AnMaster> ais523, you should allow optionally making using of PSOX! *ducks*
17:48:08 <ais523> AnMaster: actually the code's designed so that's a possibility, not planning to work on it atm though
17:48:33 <AnMaster> ais523, what's the #if PASS == 0 and such stuff for?
17:48:43 <ais523> to generate lots of separate .o files from one .c
17:48:50 <ais523> so the linker only links the ones you need
17:48:55 <ais523> rather than all of them
17:49:01 <AnMaster> ais523, pretty esoteric, but why not use separate C files?
17:49:06 <ais523> I tried to emulate the usual semantics of UNIX linkers
17:49:29 <ais523> and I just didn't think of using separate C files, also some of the functions reference each other so having them in the same file is neater
17:49:42 <ais523> besides many of the functions are so short that separating them would be overkill
17:49:52 <ais523> and there's some boilerplate like the headers that's the same for all of them
17:49:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I believe glibc have more or less one function per file
17:50:03 <AnMaster> possibly some static functions as wlel
17:50:12 <Deewiant> I believe glibc functions tend to be long
17:50:20 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but libgcc has everything in four or five files
17:50:48 <ais523> fun fact: my build process compiles each function in libgcc three times
17:51:02 <ais523> with different word sizes
17:51:29 <ais523> that way if I'm missing a function, I get not just the 8- and 16-bit versions, but the 32- and 64-bit versions too
17:51:49 <ais523> AnMaster: the double underscore should warn you that something's up there
17:52:02 <ais523> and void is the right data type, brkpos is literally 0 bytes long
17:52:39 <ais523> by the way comp.lang.c told me that I was talking nonsense
17:52:43 <ais523> but it works, so I don't care
17:52:45 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't double underscore used for "compiler internal variables/functions"
17:52:51 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, exactly
17:52:56 <ais523> what do you think that is?
17:53:02 <ais523> I'm writing a compiler here, after all...
17:53:20 * ais523 waits for tusho to make a snarky comment
17:53:22 <AnMaster> ais523, but does the C standard define this reserved "namespace"?
17:53:41 <ais523> double underscore followed by anything, or single underscore followed by a capital letter
17:53:50 <AnMaster> ais523, and one underscore? Seems to be libc stuff a lot of the time
17:54:02 <tusho> ais523: Fed up of arguing with AnMaster, I wish I could /ignore him but then I'd miss out on half of #esoteric.
17:54:03 <ais523> they're both defined in both standards, but the first is used in C89 more and the second is used in C99 more
17:54:10 <tusho> Not a particularly good half... but a continuity-making half.
17:54:19 <ais523> single underscore is not defined by the standard as such
17:54:31 <tusho> AnMaster: It's "says".
17:54:32 <ais523> except for capital letters
17:54:59 <ais523> but it's become a sort of pseudonamespace that tends to be used neither by implementations nor by user programs
17:55:10 <ais523> if it's in libc, though, the only legitimate reason I can think of is that it's linking to something in asm
17:55:23 <AnMaster> ais523, so it is mostly used by libraries then?
17:55:31 <ais523> the difference between C identifiers and asm identifiers on most systems is that the asm version of a C identifier has an extra _ at the start
17:55:49 <ais523> but really stuff like _var shouldn't be used by anyone, it's just confusing
17:55:57 <ais523> a C program can use it under some situations, but why?
17:56:10 <ais523> (exception: _ is in the user namespace, and quite commonly used as a macro name, by gettext, for instance)
17:56:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:56:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I think valgrind headers sometimes use triple underscore
17:56:52 <ais523> AnMaster: in that case most likely they're interfacing with compiler internals in the asm
17:56:58 <ais523> thus two underscores from the internals, one for asm
17:57:23 <ais523> well, valgrind's linking against the user program
17:57:36 <ais523> so it uses names like __vg_replace_malloc in implementation namespace
17:57:47 <ais523> to avoid clashes with user program identifiers
17:57:49 <Deewiant> ais523: for standards questions like extern void, you might want to ask comp.std.c
17:58:16 <ais523> it's easier to check that you don't clash with any well-known compiler than it is to check with any program anyone's ever written
17:58:28 <ais523> Deewiant: I know about comp.std.c, mostly they don't like questions so much
17:58:37 <ais523> they prefer complaints about tricky bits in the standard
17:58:45 <ais523> like asking why gets is still there, for instance
17:58:56 <ais523> whereas comp.lang.c answer questions about what's allowed in programs
18:06:59 <ais523> <GiovanniZero> What's more eco-friendly than keeping servers in the garden? <antifoidulus> Have you even considered the possibility of sentient tomatoes?
18:07:20 <Slereah2> ATTAAAACK OF THE KILLER TOMATOES!
18:07:22 <Slereah2> ATTAAAACK OF THE KILLER TOMATOES!
18:07:40 <Slereah2> THEY'LL BEAT YOU, BASH YOU, SQUEEZE YOU, CHEW YOU UP FOR LUNCH!
18:07:50 <Slereah2> AND FINISH YOU UP, FOR SUPPER OR LUNCH
18:07:53 <ais523> look at the context, though
18:08:07 <ais523> sentient tomatoes would be so much more eco-friendly than a server in the garden
18:11:34 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I don't think any mainstream newsgroup or irc channel would like what you are doing
18:11:58 <tusho> AnMaster: nah, see, there are people with senses of humour
18:12:04 <tusho> those people like it just fine, if amusedly
18:12:10 <tusho> AnMaster: however... you're not in that set
18:12:14 <tusho> as far as i can tell
18:12:20 <AnMaster> but I know about channels like ##c and such
18:12:29 <tusho> ##c is not mainstream
18:12:32 <tusho> it's the bullshit fringe
18:12:39 <ais523> gcc-bf isnt humorous, really
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18:12:54 <AnMaster> no idea why you would think I don't
18:14:01 <tusho> set = people who have a sense of humour
18:14:14 <tusho> (AnMaster in set) -> false
18:14:54 <AnMaster> ais523, would you say I have humor?
18:15:06 <ais523> different people have different senses of humour
18:15:13 <ais523> you have one but it's incompatible with tusho's
18:15:16 <tusho> ok, people with a _good_ sense of humour
18:15:27 <tusho> just about everyone in #esoteric has one
18:15:37 <AnMaster> tusho, well good is subjective
18:15:50 <AnMaster> I don't like your sense of humor
18:15:58 <tusho> AnMaster: since I am in #esoteric, i can objectively say that an #esoteric-esque sense of humour is a good one
18:16:01 <tusho> you do not have one...
18:16:06 <AnMaster> but I wouldn't call one is better than the other
18:16:49 <AnMaster> tusho, you are just trolling, it is so pathetic
18:16:57 <tusho> no, no I am not trolling
18:17:06 <tusho> disagreeing with you != trolling
18:17:09 <tusho> not liking you != trolling
18:17:15 <tusho> accusing me of trolling without basis == trolling
18:17:23 <AnMaster> but saying that "good" is objective
18:17:32 <AnMaster> and the way you act is trolling
18:17:43 <tusho> in #esoteric, it can be objectively said that an #esoteric-esque sense of humour is good
18:17:48 <tusho> relative to #esoteric
18:17:51 <ais523> calm down you two, you're both reasonable when you're on your own
18:17:53 <tusho> which you will note you are in
18:17:59 <tusho> ais523: disagreed on that point.
18:18:00 <ais523> just something bad seems to happen when you end up in the same channel together
18:18:05 <AnMaster> tusho, yes but you can't objectively say what an "#esoteric-esque sense of humour" is
18:18:15 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, i can: it's the sense of humour most of #esoteric have
18:18:34 <AnMaster> tusho, and then it isn't same as you certainly, I see lot of humor that you seem to ignore
18:18:44 <AnMaster> probably you just don't notice it is humor
18:18:47 <tusho> ignore != i didn't find it funny
18:19:01 <tusho> ignore == everyone spamming the channel with 'lol' is annoying
18:19:02 <AnMaster> tusho, but I disagree that most have same humor as you
18:21:05 <AnMaster> ais523, as far as I can tell libbf.c's malloc() will experience rather bad memory fragmentation, though I'm not sure
18:21:41 <ais523> well there's plenty of memory to spare
18:21:46 <ais523> and not all that many files likely created
18:21:57 <ais523> that's quite a lot really
18:22:04 <ais523> I used to store all my data on floppy disks
18:22:11 <ais523> so I appreciate how big a megabyte is
18:22:14 <AnMaster> ais523, but will it be used for other stuff than file system that sbrk?
18:22:21 <ais523> sbrk's used for all malloc
18:22:29 <ais523> but sbrk is used by malloc
18:22:43 <ais523> generally speaking you don't sbrk stuff directly because there's no way to give it back
18:22:52 <AnMaster> ais523, err glibc uses mmap for large allocations
18:23:02 <ais523> AnMaster: this is newlib I'm talking about
18:23:07 <ais523> and I checked all its dependencies
18:23:24 <ais523> I actually hacked my linker to return all the dependencies it needed
18:24:19 <AnMaster> ais523, one think I wonder how you solve in gcc-bf is function pointers. Do you use some global jump table?
18:24:35 <ais523> actually all looping's done like that
18:25:03 <ais523> and all labels, instead of being label: are more like ip=16; break; case 16:
18:25:52 <AnMaster> ais523, btw.... I thought about what you said about pointers being slow in gcc-bf... How fast is gcc-bf generally?
18:26:05 <ais523> not sure, it's vary variable
18:26:07 <AnMaster> I know that is very hard to answer of course
18:26:29 <ais523> basically addition and subtraction can be done very fast as long as it's all in registers
18:26:37 <ais523> everything else is slow
18:26:49 <ais523> and computational-order-slow, for that matter
18:26:55 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge's funge-space is quite heavy on pointers....
18:27:10 <ais523> anyway I changed the function-call interface
18:27:14 <ais523> to put arguments in registers
18:27:18 <tusho> oh no! it won't run cfunge in negative time!
18:27:22 <tusho> ais523: fix it immediately!
18:27:52 <ais523> tusho: AnMaster is actually more intelligent and multi-track-minded than you give them credit for
18:28:03 <AnMaster> tusho, I was just thinking since ais523 asked me about cfunge deps in relation to gcc-bf before (he asked, I didn't even consider it).
18:28:15 <ais523> it was just idle speculation
18:28:23 <ais523> I'm wondering about what gcc-bf could run in theory
18:28:28 <ais523> not what it can run in a reasonable time
18:28:30 <AnMaster> but I think it may take a huge amount of time to even do hello world
18:28:30 <tusho> ais523: he's annoying, that's what
18:28:45 <ais523> AnMaster: hello world has huge stdio overhead
18:28:54 <ais523> if you write the POSIX version it can be done pretty quickly, I think
18:29:00 <AnMaster> ais523, since even the setup of funge space pre-allocates a lot of more cells than really needed (20 000 by default iirc)
18:29:01 <ais523> that is, using write() rather than printf()
18:29:15 <ais523> oh, you mean cfunge under gcc-bf doing hello world?
18:29:19 <ais523> yes, that would be insanely slkow
18:29:43 <AnMaster> ais523, actually cfunge initially allocates #define FUNGESPACEINITIALSIZE 150000 cells
18:30:03 <AnMaster> yes it is tuned for mycology there, yes I know tusho will make fun of it, no I don't care about him
18:30:21 <tusho> actually I'm not going to make fun of it so that your sentence was a waste of typing
18:30:23 <AnMaster> ais523, also what posix version of hello world?
18:30:23 <ais523> AnMaster: the main problem I'm finding with gcc-bf is that it throws all the common knowledge about optimisation out of the window
18:30:30 <ais523> AnMaster: the one that uses write rather than printf
18:30:34 <tusho> (and solely for that reason)
18:31:18 <ais523> it would be still faster with __builtin_dot and __builtin_comma or whatever I decide to call them when I get round to writing them
18:31:26 <AnMaster> ais523, if you do manage to compile cfunge under it (and even get it to output it's help) I would really really like to know how large the binary was
18:31:32 <ais523> the other six BF commands are probably best avoided
18:31:37 <ais523> also, what do you mean "binary"?
18:31:50 <ais523> brainfuck programs are text...
18:31:54 <tusho> ais523: __builtin_output, __builtin_input
18:32:02 <tusho> __builtin_move_left, __builtin_move_right
18:32:08 <tusho> __builtin_increment
18:32:11 <tusho> __builtin_decrement
18:32:15 <tusho> also, for the lulz:
18:32:20 <tusho> __builtin_loop_start
18:32:22 <tusho> __builtin_loop_end
18:32:24 <AnMaster> tusho, that could mess up the program if you did it the wrong way
18:32:30 <tusho> AnMaster: the loop ones?
18:32:35 <tusho> but __builtin_ is pretty dangerous anyway
18:32:38 <tusho> also, it'd be funny
18:32:41 <ais523> (incidentally, with an early version which just linked and output dummy executables, I got autoconf to configure C-INTERCAL to cross-compile to brainfuck, and it correctly identified the default output filename as a.b. I was very impressed.)
18:32:45 <tusho> since they'd work kind of like setjmp
18:32:48 <tusho> in their interface
18:32:55 <AnMaster> tusho, the other ones could mess with register state or memory pointer too
18:33:01 <ais523> tusho: as I said, the other 6 are probably best avoided
18:33:02 <tusho> AnMaster: well yeah
18:33:08 <tusho> ais523: they're esoteric, though
18:33:13 <ais523> move_left and move_right would actually be worst of all
18:33:15 <AnMaster> tusho, ,.+- are probably the least dangerous
18:33:19 <tusho> int main(void) { __builtin_increment(); __builtin_loop_start(); printf("hello world!\n"); builtin_loop_end(); return 0; }
18:33:21 <ais523> as they would basically cause all of memory to no longer exist
18:33:31 <tusho> ais523: well, __builtin_ is ALWAYS dangerous territory
18:33:35 <tusho> I think it's best to expose as much as possible
18:33:44 <tusho> because some crazy soul will write a program that uses them and it will WORK
18:33:48 <ais523> + and - would be safe, you could give it an argument saying where the pointer should be at the time
18:33:57 <tusho> ais523: possibly you should have __asm__ too
18:34:07 <ais523> read the library I linked
18:34:09 <tusho> you could use the register stuff in the __asm__ syntax to avoid register clobbering
18:34:13 <tusho> ais523: does it do brainfuck, though?
18:34:17 <ais523> tusho: no, it does ABI
18:34:25 <tusho> i mean you should have a brainfuck __asm__
18:34:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that reminds me, what is the syntax for that strange __asm__
18:34:25 <ais523> but ABI will probably have a literal-brainfuck opcod
18:34:44 <tusho> then you could implement __builtin_move_left yourself
18:34:45 <ais523> AnMaster: it takes either 3 or 4 args, separated by colons
18:34:51 <tusho> just by using the ABI thing to do "lit ["
18:34:56 <tusho> and stuff like that
18:35:17 <ais523> the first is the asm you want, the second describes the outputs, the third describes the input, and the fourth tells it what registers are clobbered
18:35:33 <ais523> AnMaster: that's typical ABI that you're quoting there
18:35:57 <AnMaster> ais523, also I can (from reading libbf.c) see plenty of ways to make programs that would break gcc-bf in subtle ways
18:36:05 <ais523> except that's actually an ABI template, so % becomes %, and %1 and %0 are replaced
18:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that signal stuff looks suspect in pass 15 for example
18:36:34 <AnMaster> it *may* be safe, not sure how it is used
18:36:41 <ais523> it's all done with newlib's simulated signals
18:36:58 <ais523> so IOW it doesn't have to be reentrant or anything like that that's normally important with signals
18:37:13 <ais523> because there's no way to get a signal other than raise or abort
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18:38:22 <AnMaster> ais523, am I right to guess that in gcc-bf a program with many small functions (non-inlined, maybe because they are recursive or whatever) will be a lot slower than a program with a few large functions?
18:39:18 <ais523> if recursive, yes; if not, probably not all that much because although using the call stack is moderately slow looping and goto have overhead just as function calls do
18:39:42 <ais523> (incidentally, gcc translates all flow control to goto or one of three types of function call internally)
18:40:00 <tusho> how does that work?
18:40:18 <ais523> if is done by computed goto, yes
18:40:45 <AnMaster> ais523, does gcc optimise tail recursive functions btw?
18:40:45 <ais523> it's always in a conventional form, though
18:41:03 <ais523> which corresponds to goto *(x ? &&label1 : &&label2)
18:41:14 <ais523> AnMaster: it can do, it needs special patterns in the machine description for a sibling call though
18:41:53 <AnMaster> ais523, hm gettimeofday() returns a constant... what should then be used for srandom()?
18:42:08 <AnMaster> ais523, also cfunge would lockup forever if gettimeofday() never changes
18:42:13 <ais523> I've been wondering about that too, about the only thing I can think of is asking the user
18:42:25 <ais523> also, I've been wondering if gettimeofday should increment the time every time it's called
18:42:26 <AnMaster> ais523, since it uses a loop to check the granularity of gettimeofday() in HRTI
18:42:29 <ais523> to prevent that sort of lockup
18:42:51 <ais523> simple enough, I could just use a static variable holding the fake time
18:44:12 <AnMaster> ais523, this is what cfunge does first time HRTI is loaded http://rafb.net/p/EAxpoX15.html
18:44:37 <ais523> ok, I can hack it to get that to work easily enough
18:44:46 <AnMaster> ais523, though HRTI wouldn't work at all under gcc-bf for various other reasons
18:44:51 <ais523> there is more than one possible set of bogus data to return from gettimeofday()
18:45:09 <AnMaster> ais523, well incrementing by one every time could work
18:46:35 <ais523> AnMaster: usual trick to tell warning-generators that you aren't using the variable
18:46:44 <ais523> that particular idiom's recognised by pretty much all lintalikes
18:46:51 <AnMaster> ais523, since this needs gcc anyway what is wrong with __attribute__((unused))
18:47:00 <tusho> AnMaster: it's a lot longer.
18:47:02 <ais523> I like doing it portably, besides it's faster to type
18:47:06 <tusho> plus why be unportable when it's unneeded
18:47:55 <ais523> it's not as if (void)tz; translates into any code anyway on any sane compiler
18:48:26 <ais523> gcc-bf's insane and it doesn't even translate into any code on that
18:49:21 <AnMaster> ais523, don't "shared" parts of gcc remove it before?
18:49:41 <ais523> no, I think it's probably removed in RTL
18:49:43 <AnMaster> ais523, oh computed goto how will that work in gcc-bf?
18:50:03 <AnMaster> can't* just jump to a specific place in the code
18:50:03 <ais523> AnMaster: the whole thing's basically a massive switch statement, so very easily
18:50:12 <AnMaster> ais523, really? for every address?
18:50:23 <ais523> for every possible break in program flow
18:50:38 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you used computed goto to go elsewhere?
18:50:48 <ais523> so the program's broken into cases at every label, if, goto, loop and function call
18:50:58 <ais523> computed goto can goto any label it likes
18:51:17 <ais523> and each label is a place that program flow could potentially be transferred to
18:51:28 <AnMaster> ais523, exit goes to the start?
18:51:35 <ais523> it doesn't start at 0!
18:51:48 <ais523> loops never do in brainfuck
18:52:15 <ais523> but yes, that is one weird function by normal standards
18:52:19 <AnMaster> ais523, for case 23.... isn't that true for lots of other functions too? sqrtl, tanl, sinl, cosl, asinl and so on
18:52:37 <AnMaster> cfunge check that they exist and fall back to double variants
18:52:58 <ais523> AnMaster: it's to do with which functions are used by newlib, and which ones aren't
18:53:01 <ais523> newlib needs fabsl to exist
18:53:17 <ais523> my library is just like gcc; it implements bits of C99 but not all of them
18:53:26 <AnMaster> ais523, case 24 says old style prototype, but I don't see that. All I see is a modern varargs prototype: "int fcntl(int fd, int cmd, ...)"
18:53:46 <ais523> to be precise, it implements the bits that newlib needs
18:53:53 <ais523> also, I don't get that warning on case 24
18:54:00 <ais523> but are you actually trying to compile that code?
18:54:14 <AnMaster> ais523, no I was reading your comemnt
18:54:16 <ais523> half of it doesn't make any sense on any platform other than gcc-bf
18:54:23 <AnMaster> " n.b. old-style prototype as we don't know how many arguments we're getting and thus need to force an unprototyped call "
18:54:33 <ais523> and forgot to update the comment
18:54:43 <ais523> I assumed it was using old-style argument type-punning
18:54:49 <ais523> like lots of the old BSD interfaces did
18:55:05 <ais523> but actually it turned out to be varargs
18:55:10 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I don't see any calls to functions to handle varargs stuff in there
18:55:16 <ais523> ironic really because I never use the third argument
18:55:43 <ais523> the ... is needed though so it passes args on the stack
18:55:58 <ais523> varargs calling conventions are different on most architectures from the non-varargs version
18:56:13 <AnMaster> /usr/include/gentoo-multilib/amd64/fcntl.h:extern int fcntl (int __fd, int __cmd, ...);
18:56:26 <AnMaster> weird to use __ in parameter list
18:56:26 <ais523> yes, it's a ... in newlib's .h too
18:56:34 <ais523> and not at all in a system header file
18:56:42 <ais523> imagine if the user does #define fd before including it
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18:57:02 <ais523> header files can't mention any user-namespace stuff at all other than what they're meant to be defining
18:57:12 <ais523> (splint actually gives a warning about this on its strictest mode...)
18:57:29 <AnMaster> ais523, hm does opening /dev/null work?
18:57:46 <ais523> not if it doesn't exist and you don't specify O_CREAT
18:57:54 <ais523> no directory structure, no special filenames
18:57:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean a null device node
18:58:05 <ais523> there are no device nodes
18:58:10 <ais523> stdin/out/err are special-cased
18:58:21 <ais523> everything else is a regular file, all chars but NUL allowed in filenames, no directories
18:58:40 <ais523> also, all files are owned by root, nosuid, noexec, permissions 644
18:58:49 <AnMaster> ais523, am I right in my understanding that gcc-bf will have one very advanced security feature?
18:59:01 <ais523> which is the inability to do anything BF can't do?
18:59:28 <AnMaster> mandatory NX on the data and write protected code?
18:59:34 <AnMaster> and that mprotect() can't change it
18:59:56 <AnMaster> ais523, you could make it sound enterprisy :)
19:00:00 <ais523> mandatory NX on data, mandatory NR/NW on the code
19:00:22 <ais523> annoyingly gcc requires executable stack to implement nested functions
19:00:29 <tusho> sounding like a crazy esoteric code wizard who can code something like gcc-bf is sometimes better than sounding enerprisey
19:00:32 <ais523> but I decided to not implement that because they aren't part of standard C anyway
19:01:01 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. Except I have seriously considered adding JIT using llvm or similiar to cfunge
19:01:15 <AnMaster> only thing blocking that is 1) time 2) LLVM is C++
19:01:35 <ais523> well, I may write the bytecode version some time in which the program is stored in the same memory as the data
19:01:44 <ais523> and only the VM would be unreadable and unwritable
19:01:47 <AnMaster> ais523, would be even slower :D
19:02:02 <ais523> the memory would be "nonexecutable", but the VM could execute it so there wouldn't be a problem
19:02:14 <ais523> also, I don't think it would be slower by a factor of more than n^2 or so
19:02:18 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it would be an optional cfunge feature if I did it
19:02:42 <ais523> AnMaster: luckily gcc-bf runs in polynomial time, I think
19:04:25 <AnMaster> ais523, which column in ps aux is the memory usage that would be relevant for gcc-bf?
19:04:47 <AnMaster> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND
19:04:47 <AnMaster> arvid 11814 0.2 0.5 18080 7948 pts/4 T 20:03 0:00 build/cfunge -S mycology/mycology.b98
19:05:02 <ais523> probably all of them added together
19:05:38 <AnMaster> ais523, in what units? 18080 + 7948
19:05:40 <ais523> the entire OS is inside the program too
19:05:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure if it will fit with mycology inside 16 MB RAM
19:06:33 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge wasn't coded for that memory limited systems
19:06:46 <tusho> 16MB of ram is not memory limited.
19:06:57 <ais523> well, I've fit an entire Linux distro into 16 MB disk space, 64 MB RAM
19:07:04 <tusho> for a gui app running on a fully-featured OS, sure.
19:07:05 <ais523> although I had to take bits out to fit Python on there
19:07:11 <tusho> for an esolang interp, no, 16MB is luxury
19:07:16 <AnMaster> tusho, fully featured? As in Linux?
19:07:24 <tusho> AnMaster: Or Windows or OS X.
19:07:50 <AnMaster> 119890 * 8 bytes for 64-bit cfunge to hold mycology
19:07:58 <ais523> AnMaster: it's in kilobytes
19:08:20 <ais523> so yes, 26MB is a bit too much
19:08:35 <tusho> ais523: why can't you have infinite memory
19:08:37 <ais523> well, gcc-bf doesn't support debug info
19:08:38 <tusho> i.e. that of the BF host
19:08:52 <ais523> tusho: it does, but you can't take pointers to stuff outside the first 16MB
19:09:05 <ais523> which makes it pretty hard to use with regular C programs
19:09:11 <tusho> ais523: perhaps have an extension thing:a
19:09:20 <AnMaster> ais523, it gets down to 17 MB without it
19:09:25 <AnMaster> and this is 64-bit funge remember
19:09:49 <tusho> __mem(multiples of 16 for base offset, value)
19:09:50 <ais523> AnMaster: how much of that is on the stack?
19:09:54 <tusho> addresses memory at offset+value
19:10:09 <AnMaster> ais523, most is the hash table on the heap, which have lots and lots of pointers
19:10:11 <ais523> You get 16MB for the stack, and another 16MB for heap + bss + initialised data + rodata combined
19:10:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I use a memory pool to allocate the cells from
19:10:22 <ais523> also the program itself doesn't count
19:10:36 <ais523> you get 16 million basic blocks there
19:10:46 <ais523> which is easily enough for anything I'm likely to be able to think of
19:10:54 <AnMaster> ais523, remember my pointers are 64 bits
19:11:03 <ais523> ah yes, mine are 32 bits
19:11:11 <ais523> actually they're 26 bits
19:11:16 <ais523> but padded to 32 for sanity reasons
19:11:27 <AnMaster> ais523, and only a tiny fraction of the memory is on the stack
19:11:31 <ais523> generally C likes sizeof(void*) to be an integer
19:11:36 <AnMaster> basically arguments + local variables
19:11:47 <ais523> it'll be fast to access the stack, though
19:11:51 <ais523> if you don't have much on it
19:12:05 <AnMaster> ais523, well I pass pointers to stuff on the heap
19:12:14 <AnMaster> ais523, also what about static const arrays?
19:12:23 <ais523> they're in the same memory storage as the heap is
19:12:24 <AnMaster> I use one large such to look up fingerprint function pointer in
19:13:34 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I don't think I use all that memory, but the initial hash table size is on the large size, I found that it helped performance quite a bit in mycology
19:13:59 <ais523> well maybe I can just reduce the numbers a bit, I don't think performance is likely to be very important here...
19:14:29 <ais523> doubling the speed of your program is pointless when the interpreter's making it worse by several factors of n
19:16:53 <AnMaster> ais523, my normal build is 2.5 MB binary with debug info and 160 KB after strip, with an -Os x86_32 build I got 79 KB after strip
19:17:22 <ais523> maybe I should get a buildable-by-someone-else version of gcc_bf up sometime
19:17:31 <ais523> so you can have a go at running what I've done so far
19:17:32 <AnMaster> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND
19:17:33 <AnMaster> arvid 13331 4.0 0.3 6780 5400 pts/4 T 20:17 0:00 build_32/cfunge -S mycology/mycology.b98
19:17:43 <AnMaster> ais523, that is *without* changing the initial alloc size
19:17:54 <ais523> bf-gcc -o works fine atm (and is equivalent to bf-gcc -S apart from the output filename)
19:18:05 <ais523> and those numbers look tenable
19:18:23 <AnMaster> cfunge is extremely pointer heavy
19:18:36 <ais523> and it's also extremely int heavy
19:18:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well I used that in the last 64-bit build
19:18:45 <ais523> or at least native-int-size heavy
19:18:49 <AnMaster> it didn't make a lot of difference
19:19:02 <ais523> but yes, code that pointy isn't going to go well with brainfuck
19:19:07 <ais523> as brainfuck doesn't like pointers or anything similar
19:19:20 <AnMaster> ais523, well a hash library is pointy by definition kind of
19:19:49 <AnMaster> I have tried to reduce pointers there
19:19:58 <AnMaster> special case the hash library code
19:20:35 <ais523> hmm... if I wrote a funge interp from scratch in brainfuck, I could take advantage of the infinite memory to not bother with hashing
19:20:54 <AnMaster> ais523, from using a void* pointer in the nodes to point at the data to contain the data directly in the record
19:21:14 <ais523> yes, I was talking about brainfuck in general not gcc-fb
19:21:21 <ais523> where you do have infinite memory
19:21:23 <AnMaster> ais523, also you wouldn't want to write a befunge-98 from scratch, it is *hard* the first time
19:21:31 <AnMaster> since there are such a lot of pitfalls
19:21:38 <AnMaster> it was a lot easier the second time with efunge
19:21:40 <ais523> gcc-bf has infinite memory but it doesn't have infinite addressable memory, so the infinite memory is a bit pointless
19:21:45 <AnMaster> but even then I hit several of those pitfalls
19:21:49 <Deewiant> if you don't use mycology for testing it's a lot easier ;-P
19:22:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but it doesn't test everything
19:22:32 <Deewiant> kind of hard to test every possible valid befunge-98 program :-P
19:22:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, kk ..... k v ...... kt kq
19:23:08 <ais523> AnMaster: what does o do again?
19:23:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it means you can do like MS: Rig the POSIX test
19:23:16 <ais523> kkkt is bad enough to think about, anyway
19:23:48 <ais523> Deewiant: probably worth having something on the stack beforehand
19:25:29 <ais523> Deewiant: I just ran #tkkkt in debug mode in ccbi
19:25:48 <ais523> it went into an infinite loop at the first k
19:25:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ais523: leason: Set your ulimits!
19:26:00 <ais523> busyloop by the feel of it as everything else on the computer stopped responding
19:26:10 <Deewiant> now if I only knew what caused the crash
19:26:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it doesn't crash in cfunge
19:26:28 <ais523> AnMaster: and it's certainly worth setting ulimits when compiling gcc-bf, several times the resulting code, which runs during the compilation, turned out to have infinite recursion
19:26:33 <ais523> AnMaster: what does it do in cfunge?
19:26:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, all it does is hit my ulimit after about 2 seconds
19:26:53 <Deewiant> it could be a stack overflow crash
19:27:05 <ais523> AnMaster: which ulimit does it hit?
19:27:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you store the stuff on the stack?
19:27:43 <ais523> what does that one do?
19:27:49 <ais523> I don't think I've ever used it
19:27:53 <AnMaster> max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited
19:27:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so what, you think I should allocate k's stack frame on the heap? :-P
19:27:57 <ais523> and I don't understand the docs for it
19:28:05 <ais523> wait, -m is "max resident set size" on my computer
19:29:46 <ais523> and I have no idea what that means
19:29:57 <AnMaster> ais523, wait it hit -v first actually
19:30:14 <ais523> ah, -v is one of the ones I normally set when I have a hunch that something might hit ulimit
19:30:20 <ais523> normally I set it quite low, though
19:30:34 <AnMaster> actually what happened to be exact was:
19:30:35 <AnMaster> Could not create IP, possibly out of memory?
19:30:35 <AnMaster> Things may be broken now, continuing anyway.
19:30:57 <AnMaster> not sure what logic I used for that
19:31:22 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and the 25 MB, those include libraries I think
19:31:28 <AnMaster> ais523, if I set -v low enough I get:
19:31:40 <AnMaster> ./cfunge: error while loading shared libraries: libdl.so.2: failed to map segment from shared object: Cannot allocate memory
19:32:06 <AnMaster> ais523, that could explain the huge memory usage
19:32:48 <AnMaster> actually it seems cfunge does *not* handle most errors gracefully really:
19:32:51 <ais523> well, ncurses may be a lot simpler on gcc-bf
19:32:54 <AnMaster> $ ( ulimit -v $(( 15 * 1024 )); ./cfunge -S test.b98; )
19:32:54 <AnMaster> cfunge: /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/ip.c:199: ipListDuplicateIP: Assertion `index <= (*me)->top' failed.
19:33:02 <AnMaster> ais523, it needs terminal move
19:33:05 <ais523> if I get it working there at all
19:33:13 <AnMaster> ais523, all I use from ncurses are the low level terminfo bits
19:33:26 <AnMaster> I don't use the high level dialog functions
19:33:38 <ais523> AnMaster: what happens if you try to write to /dev/full inside cfunge?
19:33:43 <ais523> that's a useful device to know about
19:33:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well using o, it should refelect
19:34:14 <AnMaster> ais523, the issue is that it doesn't handle realloc/malloc errors gracefully all the time
19:34:21 <ais523> I wonder how many people take the possibility of reflecting o into account?
19:34:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I certainly do reflect on it in some cases
19:34:36 <ais523> also, handling realloc/malloc errors can often be done simply by wrapping realloc and malloc
19:34:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also you do when you code since o is optional
19:34:44 <ais523> I meant when writing Funge programs
19:34:59 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to check with y if i and o are implemented
19:35:59 <AnMaster> $ ( ulimit -v $(( 13 * 1024 )); ./cfunge -S test.b98; )
19:35:59 <AnMaster> malloc: Cannot allocate memory
19:35:59 <AnMaster> Couldn't create funge space!?: Illegal seek
19:36:09 <ais523> or just try bouncing filenames off them to see what happens
19:36:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I think I know what that was. :D mmap failing
19:36:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems at least 11 MB alone in the 64-bit build is needed to load the libraries and the binary
19:37:09 <ais523> well, the libraries and binary aren't in memory for gcc-bf
19:37:14 <ais523> so there's no problem to worry about there
19:37:39 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed and on linux the libraries will be shared with other apps
19:37:54 <ais523> whereas gcc-bf statically links everything
19:37:57 <AnMaster> so just one copy of each libary
19:38:00 <ais523> because there is no more than one program per universe
19:38:24 <AnMaster> ais523, right. Does ick have issues with dlopen/dlclose btw?
19:38:36 <ais523> shouldn't do, it doesn't notice them itself
19:38:43 <ais523> it will have no idea if you're using them or not
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20:13:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I need your help with an issue
20:14:18 <AnMaster> ais523, read the comments on http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937
20:14:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't got any response
20:14:57 <AnMaster> ais523, the *direct* link is needed since it is a program that downloads, not a human
20:15:04 <AnMaster> but that person doesn't seem to understand it
20:15:19 <ais523> I understand his situation better than you do, probably
20:15:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well I need *direct link to tarball*
20:15:32 <ais523> there is more than one download site for c-intercal
20:15:36 <ais523> he's suggesting you link to the other one
20:15:49 <AnMaster> I need a direct link to the tarball again
20:16:11 <AnMaster> ais523, it will be fetched by a program, not by a human like he seems to assume
20:16:30 <ais523> http://www.intercal.ukfsn.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz and http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz are the two download locations for C-INTERCAL 0.28
20:16:56 <ais523> the problem is maybe neither of them are
20:17:06 <ais523> maybe we should persuade tusho to host a permanent version
20:17:09 <AnMaster> ais523, also it was over a month since I responded to him and he didn't reply
20:17:25 <tusho> "what an arse" who
20:17:36 <ais523> (btw if you expect C-INTERCAL download locations to be permanent, you are obviously unaware of the history; many versions were never distributed over either HTTP or FTP)
20:17:49 <ais523> some were done as shars over usenet, others were distributed as patches to other versions
20:17:55 <tusho> oh, AnMaster is calling Claudio an arse?
20:17:57 <tusho> well fuck you too AnMaster
20:17:58 <AnMaster> ais523, the link will be fetched by wget basically (actually curl iirc)
20:18:09 <ais523> AnMaster: what about using a redirection service?
20:18:10 <AnMaster> ais523, so I need a link *which works for that*
20:18:33 <AnMaster> ais523, couldn't http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-<version>.tgz provide that?
20:18:34 <ais523> I understand what you need, I'm just trying to explain you might not be able to get it
20:18:50 <AnMaster> ais523, or you could use the sourceforge mirror system :)
20:19:00 <AnMaster> I do that for cfunge *exactly for that reason*
20:19:01 <ais523> sourceforge... now there's an idea
20:19:21 <AnMaster> ais523, and it is the only bit I use the cfunge project on there for really
20:19:50 <AnMaster> ais523, it should be perfect for mirror network
20:20:11 <ais523> well, maybe I'll move to eso-std.org when I'm convinced that tusho won't move everything around every 10 seconds
20:20:25 <AnMaster> ais523, sf.net seems sane to me
20:20:33 <tusho> ais523: you know me. I'll move it around as soon as AnMaster updates his thing to use it
20:20:37 <AnMaster> ais523, also why didn't he bother to respond I tried to ask what he meant?
20:20:48 <tusho> AnMaster: people have lives
20:20:52 <ais523> AnMaster: he tends to be busy, I think
20:21:10 <AnMaster> ais523, yet another reason to use sf.net, I think they changed download link once the last 5 years :P
20:21:34 <AnMaster> from dl.sourceforge.net/project/filename to download.sourceforge.net/project/filename
20:21:59 <AnMaster> ah yes http://downloads.sourceforge.net/cfunge/cfunge-0.3.2.tar.bz2
20:22:31 <AnMaster> ais523, and that redirects to some mirror
20:22:48 <ais523> AnMaster: evil idea: use Debian's version of the original source
20:22:59 <ais523> that's mirrored all over hte place
20:23:12 <ais523> it's bundled in the dpkg
20:23:20 <ais523> along with a Debian-specific diff
20:23:21 <AnMaster> ais523, no way I'm extracting that
20:23:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I do odd stuff already: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/c-intercal/c-intercal/PKGBUILD
20:24:02 <AnMaster> ick at least used to break at -j2 or higher
20:24:06 <ais523> AnMaster: that's less than a page of odd stuff
20:24:45 <ais523> in fact that looks positively sane
20:25:11 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the gentoo version: http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=157803
20:25:30 <AnMaster> (odd that Claudio didn't comment on http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228563)
20:25:39 <ais523> that's better, but still too short
20:25:54 <ais523> (btw config.sh is named configure again in -1.29, you'll be glad to know)
20:28:50 <AnMaster> "IMHO, the major.minor.major version is asking for trouble. What will happen if
20:28:50 <AnMaster> upstream decides to add a micro version component? I think the Gentoo version
20:28:50 <AnMaster> should follow major.minor (i.e., 28.0, even if this is boring)."
20:29:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I actually have incomplete plans somewhere for a complete Debian-legal version mangling scheme
20:29:35 <ais523> I even got hold of the source to dpkg to check
20:29:43 <ais523> even 28.0 won't handle the version numbers for the alphas
20:29:55 <ais523> -1.29 = alpha for 0.29
20:30:07 <ais523> or maybe even 1.-3.0.29
20:33:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well we will just skip alphas then
20:34:00 * ais523 is tempted to release a version of C-INTERCAL with a version number like "fish" to annoy everyone
20:34:13 <tusho> ais523: just make versions C-INTERCAL programs
20:34:14 <ais523> I won't, though, that would be evil
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20:39:46 <AnMaster> ais523, better yet: make the version fish and the *codename* 0.29
20:40:03 <ais523> it's had various codenames at various stages
20:40:10 <ais523> -1.29 is a good one, though, as it's pretty obvious what it means
20:40:21 <ais523> it was called 1.29 at one point, because I wasn't sure if it was a bugfix release or not
20:40:23 <fizzie> TeX (and metafont) have that funny version numbering, where the version number approaches pi (or e for metafont) by adding one digit to the end of the version number; TeX is currently at 3.1415926. But maybe that's too user-friendly since it's just a monotonically increasing number.
20:41:16 <fizzie> I'm sure most people know, but since the topic was version numbering...
20:43:34 <AnMaster> ais523, also I thought it was clc that did negative?
20:43:52 <ais523> clc does negatives using decimal, though
20:43:58 <ais523> which is pretty easy to translate
20:44:05 <ais523> whereas C-INTERCAL is lexicographic
20:45:26 <AnMaster> ais523, can you contact Claudio and explain why *direct link to tarball* is needed, since he now added an offending text at the top of http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ about that
20:45:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I hope you can do it soon
20:45:49 <AnMaster> or I will just give up on it, it needs a stable link
20:45:58 <AnMaster> even if that means it has to be source forge
20:46:00 <ais523> AnMaster: I think he's pretty much pointing out that a stable link is unavailable via his servers
20:46:44 <AnMaster> ais523, well gentoo will mirror it to it's own servers if the ebuild get accepted, but they will fetch from the original
20:46:55 <AnMaster> ais523, while archlinux won't mirror source
20:47:01 <ais523> well in that case just point Arch at the Gentoo servers and you're done
20:47:29 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't work since old mirrored files are cleaned out when the corresponding ebuild is removed
20:47:45 <AnMaster> so when it is updated the link will suddenly get invalid overnight
20:48:20 <AnMaster> give me a reason *against* using them for mirroring
20:48:40 <AnMaster> for code or website hosting sure, but their mirror system is way way more stable
20:49:24 <ais523> AnMaster: you can use them for that if you like
20:49:38 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to register the c-intercal project there then
20:49:40 <ais523> however, INTERCAL was never really based on practicality
20:50:06 <AnMaster> ais523, you don't want distributions to include packages?
20:50:29 <ais523> oh, well Debian rarely seem to have a problem, they even found some of them without hints
20:50:41 <ais523> and it seems strange that distros demand a stable download link
20:50:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is due to them hosting it themselves
20:50:52 <ais523> couldn't you just update the link whenever it changes?
20:51:02 <tusho> AnMaster: ais523's job is to make INTERCAL as difficult as possible to work with in any way
20:51:07 <ais523> that's what package managers are good at, isn't it?
20:51:10 <tusho> you are asking him to do exactly the opposite
20:51:19 <ais523> tusho: actually, yes, I get criticised on a.l.i if I make it too easy...
20:51:32 <ais523> possibly I've gone too far letting it build without manual tinkering
20:51:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I read a.l.i, it is dead basically
20:51:49 <ais523> AnMaster: lots of people read it, hardly anyone writes there though
20:52:03 <ais523> Deewiant: .pax.lzma, I'm thinking, with .pax.bz2 and .pax.gz versions too
20:52:06 <ais523> that way anyone can read it
20:52:21 <AnMaster> ais523, and I don't write because I don't have access to anything but readonly newserver
20:52:26 <ais523> Deewiant: INTERCAL doesn't necessarily have to be difficult, but it does have to be different
20:52:38 <ais523> so using a POSIX standard format when nobody else does = win
20:52:49 <AnMaster> <ais523> Deewiant: .pax.lzma, I'm thinking, with .pax.bz2 and .pax.gz versions too <-- gentoo's unpack ebuild command handle them all
20:52:56 <Deewiant> the comp my irssi runs on doesn't even have pax
20:53:03 <ais523> Deewiant: it's upward-compatible with tar
20:53:05 <tusho> everyone has access to a write newserver
20:53:10 <ais523> regular tar can read pax-encoded files
20:53:13 <ais523> even if it doesn't know it
20:53:25 <ais523> GNU tar can even create them
20:53:35 <tusho> i have pax on this os x system
20:53:38 <Deewiant> ais523: what if it contains stuff like over-255-char filenames or whatever pax supports that tar doesn't?
20:53:53 <ais523> it gets mapped to files with long complicated names that don't clash with anything
20:53:59 <ais523> and you get a tar-suitable version instead
20:54:08 <ais523> AnMaster: doesn't preserve directory structure
20:54:14 <ais523> I looked into that when tusho suggested it, though
20:54:36 <Deewiant> ais523: make an ar which contains ars which are named according to directory
20:54:44 <Deewiant> so foo/bar/baz becomes foo.a -> bar.a -> baz.a -> files
20:55:07 <AnMaster> ais523, care to write an unpacker script for then ;P
20:55:11 <ais523> I still think .pax is perfect, it doesn't actually require any extra effort from people but they don't realise it
20:55:20 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes that sounds good
20:55:36 <AnMaster> ais523, was there any comments on CREATE on a.l.i?
20:55:41 <Deewiant> ais523: well, I think people will just try tar xf and be happy when it works :-P
20:55:55 <ais523> Deewiant: I was going to tell them that that's what they should do
20:56:02 <ais523> do you think they'd guess even without/
20:56:13 <Deewiant> I think some wouldn't even notice that it's pax and not tar
20:56:44 <Deewiant> they'll just see "XXXX.XaX.gz" and use tar xzf :-P
20:57:03 <GregorR> Something occurred to me on the bus today: Stereotypical black guy = valley girl | sed 's/like/motherfucker/g'
20:57:26 <AnMaster> Fri Sep 12 17:17:02 CEST 2008 ais523@bham.ac.uk
20:57:27 <AnMaster> Sun Sep 14 11:12:25 CEST 2008 Alex Smith <ais523(524\)(525)x)@bham.ac.uk>
20:57:33 <ais523> heh, Google is really unhelpful at determining how to unpack a pax
20:57:36 <AnMaster> ais523, ^ what is up with those escape codes?
20:57:39 <tusho> AnMaster: comments
20:57:41 <ais523> AnMaster: no escapes at all
20:57:44 <tusho> he is trying to break your mailer
20:57:44 <ais523> that's a valid email address
20:57:47 <ais523> it just has nested comments in
20:58:00 <AnMaster> ais523, ah does any modern email client handle it
20:58:01 <ais523> no spambot I know of is capable of handling them
20:58:15 <AnMaster> ais523, far from all humans too
20:58:15 <ais523> AnMaster: well, Thunderbird can handle comments but not nested comments, I've heard
20:58:15 <GregorR> tusho: There was the world's most stereotype-conformant black guy on the bus today. It was ridiculous. It's like he went to racist websites and adopted every stupid stereotype they had. And yeah, that's the equivalence.
20:59:07 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems darcs pull locked up
20:59:12 <ais523> ofc the utility of a complicated comment syntax with nested comments and escapes for the comment delimiters in email addresses is somewhat suspect
20:59:33 <AnMaster> ais523, protecting against spambots?
20:59:35 <ais523> AnMaster: it shouldn't have
20:59:46 <ais523> and yes, it's partly spambot protection, and partly just because I can
20:59:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I pressed y for the last patch and then nothing
21:00:03 <ais523> anyway the latest version the cfunge stuff is broken as I haven't redone the built process for it
21:00:16 <ais523> AnMaster: try killing and restarting the connection?
21:00:38 <AnMaster> iirc it used to have some output
21:00:47 <ais523> it does once it's downloaded
21:00:55 <ais523> it does that when it has network problems
21:01:17 <AnMaster> Alex Smith <ais523(524\)(525)x)@bham.ac.uk>**20080914091817]
21:01:38 <ais523> strange, I've never known it to crash there before
21:02:05 <ais523> seeing as I moved everything to different places using the wrong commands I could understand if it got a bit confused, but darcs is good at that sort of thing
21:02:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems to be swap trashing?
21:02:55 <ais523> let me try a clean unpack myself
21:03:43 <ais523> it worked for me from clean
21:04:28 <Deewiant> heh, that's an awfully quiet bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147346
21:04:58 * ais523 recreates a tree 3 patches from the end, then tries pulling the last 3
21:05:03 <ais523> which is what AnMaster's doing I think
21:05:22 <AnMaster> trying make clean and such now
21:05:49 <ais523> not sure what that was, then
21:05:54 <AnMaster> ais523, it worked after make clean and removing cfunge build tree in there
21:06:57 <ais523> it doesn't work cross-compiling yet
21:07:16 <ais523> I don't know how to tell automake to build with native compiler rather than cross-compiler even in a cross-compilation build
21:08:14 <ais523> I just don't know how Automake handles that situation
21:08:28 <ais523> gcc isn't automake-based IIRC
21:08:50 <ais523> half the makefiles there seem to be generated dynamically as it is
21:08:53 <AnMaster> you would think they would use their own stuff
21:09:06 <ais523> gcc-bf even has a Perl script which edits one of the makefiles
21:09:12 <ais523> it compiles once, edits the makefile and recompiles
21:09:17 <Deewiant> they started using autoconf and realized what crap it is before they got to automake
21:09:22 <ais523> the makefile isn't even there to edit before the first compile
21:09:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is better than maintaining the files by hand
21:09:46 <ais523> AnMaster: because the makers of gcc in their infinite wisdom didn't forsee that an 8-bit system would need 64-bit emulation libraries
21:09:54 <AnMaster> stuff like cmake or scons beat both however
21:10:10 <AnMaster> though cmake kind of sucks if you build shared libraries
21:10:33 <ais523> actually I had my idea for my own make system
21:10:38 <ais523> which I'll call aimake if I make it
21:10:46 <ais523> it doesn't need any input at all
21:10:57 <Deewiant> runs gcc on every file in the current subdirectory?
21:10:58 <ais523> it analyses all the stuff in your directory structure and works out what to do itself
21:11:16 <ais523> and does things like hook into ldd and analyse calls to open to work out dependencies
21:11:19 <AnMaster> want to see the efunge build system?
21:11:29 <AnMaster> {['src/*'],[{outdir, ebin},warn_obsolete_guard,warn_untyped_record,warn_unused_import,warn_missing_spec_all]}.
21:11:29 <AnMaster> {['src/fingerprints/*'],[{outdir, ebin},warn_obsolete_guard,warn_untyped_record,warn_unused_import,warn_missing_spec_all]}.
21:11:55 <Deewiant> what about the fingerprint .spec files
21:12:01 <AnMaster> then a Makefile wrapper of 7 lines to have a make all target and clean
21:12:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not part of build system
21:12:36 <AnMaster> and the spec files just describe the fingerprints
21:12:51 <ais523> they're native build helpers
21:12:59 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/VS8txA72.html
21:13:07 <ais523> the sort of thing that can be expressed in Automake which for some reason doesn't realise that they shouldn't be cross-compiled
21:13:20 <ais523> AnMaster: that's data for a native build helper
21:13:30 <ais523> arguably idiotism.oil is the same in C-INTERCAL
21:13:37 <ais523> although it's quite a bit more complicated than those .spec files
21:13:55 <ais523> at least in terms of the effect it has on the build
21:13:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well extension reuse :P
21:14:15 <ais523> AnMaster: C-INTERCAL has plain-text documentation for many of the example programs, with extension .doc
21:14:23 <ais523> for some reason things keep assuming it's MS-Word files...
21:14:31 <ais523> but we were here first!
21:14:51 <Deewiant> .doc is much older than MS Word
21:15:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway the bash scripts that process those .spec files are large
21:16:01 <AnMaster> since they contain here documents with parts of the file
21:16:26 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/LekfKu32.html
21:16:30 <AnMaster> to generate the fingerprint list
21:16:39 <AnMaster> it is the efunge version actually
21:17:37 <AnMaster> the cfunge ones are similiar but make use of more of the fields in the .spec files
21:22:16 <tusho> Hooray, http://tusho.net/blog/ redesign launched
21:24:19 <ais523> and is that some genuine data on your blog/
21:25:18 <tusho> ais523: 'genuine data'?
21:25:31 <ais523> well, something other than testing
21:25:39 <tusho> all the dates are wrong
21:26:16 <tusho> ais523: if you refresh you will see that there has been actual posts there regularly since its startu
21:26:57 <tusho> ais523: ok, if you refresh *now*
21:28:04 <AnMaster> ais523, http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/b98/files
21:28:17 <AnMaster> I think that feature branch is ready to merge into trunk soon
21:28:18 <tusho> ok, admittedly there was a 10 day gap after nazi dinosaurs
21:28:25 <tusho> but nazi dinosaurs have that big of an impact, you know?
21:28:29 <tusho> they count for like 10 posts on their own
21:29:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:29:13 <tusho> ^ a nazi dinosaur's work
21:29:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:32:58 <AnMaster> ais523, mention a mail client for linux that supports your email address please
21:33:33 <ais523> let me try GNU mail, to see if it works
21:34:49 <ais523> yep, GNU mail works just fine
21:34:57 <ais523> as long as you escape the parens from bash when invoking it
21:36:11 <ais523> it managed the nested comments, but the \) fooled it
21:36:20 <ais523> I don't have mutt over here
21:36:38 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably they'll claim that escaping \ in the To address is a feature
21:36:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it is against the specs?
21:37:01 <ais523> Delivery to the following recipients failed.
21:37:01 <ais523> "ais523(524\\)(525)x)"@bham.ac.uk@adf.bham.ac.uk
21:37:10 <ais523> AnMaster: you have to escape \ to put it into an email address
21:37:23 <ais523> actually, that's weirder breakage than I was expecting, in that bounce message
21:37:43 <ais523> the problem is I was using \ as an escape character, not as a character in the address
21:38:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think you're getting what's going on here
21:38:33 <ais523> if you want to insert a literal \ in an email address you have to type it as \\
21:38:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well pine handles your
21:38:46 <ais523> likewise, if you want to insert a literal ) you have to type it as \)
21:39:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I tried and as soon as I stopped editing the field it stripped the comment
21:39:48 <AnMaster> ais523, pine is curses based if you don't know
21:39:58 <tusho> i have never cared much about liceses
21:40:05 <tusho> so pine is good for me
21:40:10 <tusho> even though I use gmail.com
21:40:17 <tusho> Hm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(e-mail_client)
21:40:22 <tusho> The successor to Pine.
21:42:12 <AnMaster> To: "524)(525)x" <ais523@bham.ac.uk>
21:42:26 <ais523> another interesting breakage...
21:42:35 <ais523> actually, that may be correct
21:42:45 <ais523> it's extracted the text of the comment and is using it as the realname
21:42:52 <ais523> interesting thing to do with the comment, I suppose
21:43:26 <AnMaster> ais523, if I enter the full "Alex Smith <ais523(524\)(525)x)@bham.ac.uk>" it works
21:43:30 <AnMaster> To: Alex Smith <ais523@bham.ac.uk>
21:43:39 <AnMaster> it was when I just entered ais523(524\)(525)x)@bham.ac.uk
21:43:46 <ais523> taking the realname from the comment is quite clever, really
21:43:55 <ais523> so in other words, most decent email clients succeed
21:44:06 <ais523> (I tried on Outlook Web Access; it wouldn't even let me send)
21:45:50 <AnMaster> ais523, file a bug against evolution
21:46:07 <AnMaster> ais523, and put yourself on CC on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147346
21:46:41 <ais523> Bug creates legal issues according to U.S. law since e.g. a trademark in a
21:46:41 <ais523> company's email address cannot be protected by the (tm) comment correctly.
21:47:28 <tusho> ais523: yes, that's an amusing joke
21:47:35 <ais523> $.==1 || $.==4 and print $.==1?"[[\n":"]]\n"
21:47:51 <AnMaster> ais523, intercal? perl? line noise?
21:48:01 <tusho> that is obviously not intercal
21:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my program is provably correct.
21:48:12 <ais523> quite readable for Perl, too
21:48:32 <ais523> AnMaster: have you ever /seen/ line noise?
21:48:35 <tusho> you joked that perl was line noise
21:48:42 <tusho> oh man, it's as funny as it was in 1990!
21:48:49 <tusho> ahahahahahahahahhahahaha
21:49:12 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl ;)
21:49:23 <tusho> ahahahahahaha! you repeated the same joke!
21:49:32 <ais523> The e-mail address you entered (ais523(524\)(525)x)@bham.ac.uk) didn't pass our syntax checking for a legal email address. A legal address must contain exactly one '@', and at least one '.' after the @, and may not contain any commas or spaces. It must also not contain any of these special characters: \ ( ) & < > , ; : " [ ], or any whitespace.
21:49:32 <tusho> oh my, your comedy is truly the highest quality in the world
21:49:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and send an email complaining
21:50:18 <AnMaster> ais523, file a bug against bugzilla (use your normal email for now)
21:50:43 <ais523> nah, I'm just going to utterly fail to be able to file the bug due to the infinite regress involved
21:50:59 <AnMaster> ais523, revert to normal email for now?
21:51:04 <tusho> AnMaster: 'normal email'
21:51:06 <tusho> his email address is:
21:51:12 <tusho> ais523(524\)(525)x)@bham.ac.uk
21:51:14 <tusho> using another would be dishonest
21:51:27 <ais523> well, no clearly that email address is contrived
21:51:35 <ais523> I may have to move to another one after a year or so anyway
21:51:36 <tusho> ais523: what?! you mean that one is dishonest?
21:51:43 <tusho> I expected more from you, ais523...
21:51:49 <ais523> the comments are pretty accurate for a programmer like me, after all
21:52:01 <tusho> heh, I wonder what email ais523 will switch to...
21:52:05 <tusho> he'd never use a hosted solution
21:52:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'm going to file bugs for all websites I use, from now on I will use nested comments when I register
21:52:11 <tusho> so i'll probably have to set up postfix on rutian
21:52:21 <tusho> wonder what domain...
21:52:23 <AnMaster> should it faill I will register with comment free email and file a bug
21:52:24 <tusho> probably eso-std.org
21:52:35 <ais523> tusho: you never know, I have working email on Normish
21:52:45 <tusho> ais523: now THAT is playing with fire...
21:53:05 <tusho> AnMaster: how does a djb know what a license is?
21:53:17 <AnMaster> tusho, well public domain works
21:53:37 <tusho> AnMaster: until recently it wasn't licensed like that
21:53:47 <tusho> djb's position on licenses is fundamentally flawed and i'm not risking myself legally like that
21:53:55 <AnMaster> tusho, and thus until recently I used postfix
21:53:58 <tusho> plus on principle i don't want to support software licensed like that
21:54:09 <AnMaster> but I had tried qmail out and noted how much better it was
21:54:13 <ais523> tusho: so this is why you exclusively use programs licenced under GPL3, right?
21:54:30 <tusho> ais523: no, i use things licensed with licenses that aren't completely broken
21:54:36 <tusho> i hate the gpl3, but i wouldn't argue it is completely broken
21:54:54 <ais523> tusho: for ages CLC-INTERCAL's licence agreement was given in source form and had to be compiled in order for you to read it
21:55:09 <tusho> and probably legally invalid
21:55:15 <ais523> although it's just BSD3 anyway
21:55:27 <ais523> or some trivial variant of it
21:55:32 <AnMaster> ais523, you could compile it in your head
21:55:59 <ais523> AnMaster: I fear it may have been written in CLC-INTERCAL
21:56:03 <ais523> which is written in itself
21:56:17 <ais523> they supply a pre-compiled version in ICBM so you can get started
21:56:22 <ais523> and the ICBM interpreter is written in Perl
21:56:24 <tusho> its written in itself,
21:56:30 <tusho> using its perl ffi
21:56:38 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL is written in CLC-INTERCAL, and compiles to bytecode
21:56:47 <ais523> The Perl programs are to interpret the resulting bytecode.
21:56:51 <ais523> of the program you compiled
21:57:02 <ais523> or of the compiler, for that matter
21:57:16 <AnMaster> ais523, writing an intercal compiler in intercal is pretty hard I bet
21:57:30 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a different set of syntax for the compilation than for the main programming
21:57:36 <ais523> the compiler's nothing but CREATE statements
21:57:41 <AnMaster> ais523, huh, that's cheating ;P
21:57:46 <ais523> and the bytecode has lots of features, like COME FROM, that make it easy to compile into
21:57:54 <ais523> no, ICBM is the bytecode
22:00:04 -!- CO2Games has joined.
22:00:36 -!- tusho has quit.
22:05:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the compiler then?
22:06:04 <AnMaster> and the byte code interpreter?
22:06:06 <ais523> there are various compilers
22:06:13 <ais523> all of which are written in IACC
22:06:25 <ais523> one of the compilers itself compiles IACC into ICBM
22:06:35 <ais523> and a Perl program interprets the ICBM
22:06:43 <AnMaster> ais523, this is *worse* than C-INTERCAL
22:06:49 <ais523> I never said it wasn't!
22:07:03 <ais523> basically, the IACC compiler is written in IACC and compiles IACC to ICBM.
22:07:17 <ais523> The other compilers compile CLC-INTERCAL, and other related languages, to ICBM, and are written in IACC.
22:07:19 <AnMaster> ais523, bootstrapping it must have been a hell
22:07:26 <ais523> The ICBM interpreter is written in Perl.
22:07:36 <ais523> and yes, that's what I think too, probably
22:07:59 <AnMaster> ais523, they should write an ICBM -> C compiler in IACC :D
22:08:09 -!- tusho has joined.
22:08:09 <ais523> however compiling iacc.iacc into iacc.io (where io is the extension for ICBM) probably isn't ridiculously difficult by hand as it's all CREATE statements
22:08:26 <ais523> hmm... let me type that again so tusho can see it
22:08:29 <ais523> basically, the IACC compiler is written in IACC and compiles IACC to ICBM.
22:08:35 <ais523> The other compilers compile CLC-INTERCAL, and other related languages, to ICBM, and are written in IACC.
22:08:38 <ais523> The ICBM interpreter is written in Perl.
22:08:50 <tusho> ais523: Not the best time. Sorry.
22:09:14 * ais523 wonders what the odds are that anyone but them and Claudio Calvelli really have the faintest idea of how CLC-INTERCAL works internally
22:09:37 <AnMaster> ais523, does anyone but you understand the internals of ick?
22:09:47 <ais523> after all I didn't even write some of them!
22:10:01 <ais523> and Joris keeps sending patches to various parts of it, usually the optimiser
22:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523, did Claudio Calvelli alone write CLC?
22:10:28 <tusho> when was clc released
22:10:34 <ais523> I submitted bug reports now and again
22:10:39 <ais523> but they didn't come with patches
22:10:58 <ais523> well, one came with a patch described in English, but Claudio had to translate it to Perl, so that doesn't count
22:11:30 <AnMaster> ais523, do you understand the internals of clc?
22:11:37 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:11:44 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, to some extent
22:11:50 <ais523> not nearly as well as Claudio does, though
22:12:05 <AnMaster> ais523, and the opposite is true for ick I guess?
22:12:07 <ais523> I tried to port it to DOS once but gave up
22:12:20 <ais523> I don't know how much Claudio knows about C-INTERCAL's internals
22:12:34 <ais523> I would guess he knows a bit, but am not sure as to the extent
22:12:56 <ais523> I've had to correct him on the details of CLC-INTERCAL's C-INTERCAL emulation mode from time to time, so not the details
22:13:18 <AnMaster> ais523, does ick offer clc-emulation?
22:13:31 <ais523> some of the features are just impossible to emulate in a compiled language
22:13:35 <ais523> and others I never got round to writing
22:13:44 <ais523> and some of the emulation is buggy
22:14:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I the emulation is buggy the other way too?
22:14:17 <ais523> and again CLC-INTERCAL doesn't support some of C-INTERCAL's newest features
22:14:39 <ais523> also they use different syntax by default, but each can emulate the other's syntax more or less perfectly
22:14:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I have an idea for how to handle memory leaks in the compiler itself. Not sure how esoteric it would be
22:14:56 <AnMaster> "pretty strange" for ick though
22:15:07 <ais523> that doesn't matter, any idea no matter how sane is esoteric when applied to the C-INTERCAL source
22:15:14 <ais523> due to how you have to contort it to make it fit
22:15:27 <ais523> that isn't handling memory leaks!
22:15:31 <ais523> that's just pretending they don't exist
22:15:36 <ais523> besides, I don't think it would help
22:15:44 <ais523> the memory leaks aren't actually harmful
22:15:56 <ais523> as C-INTERCAL allocates all the memory, then deallocates it all with basically no allocations involved
22:15:59 <ais523> due to the way it works
22:16:12 <ais523> possibly that's why fixing them's a low priority
22:16:26 <ais523> the optimiser is definitely free from leaks as that's generated code, i hope
22:16:48 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge have no memory leaks or fd leaks. Some fingerprints do leave still allocated (and reachable data) and FILE and SOCK offers the ability to leave open fds around
22:17:15 <AnMaster> ais523, this you can use to debug *befunge scripts* in valgrind
22:17:28 <AnMaster> found a fd leak in fungot some time ago for example
22:17:29 <fungot> AnMaster: that would just add to the pipe.
22:17:30 <ais523> AnMaster: just write your own befungegrind
22:17:55 <ais523> for that matter, if INTERCAL had a memory-allocation statement, simply NEXTING FROM it would let you track all the allocations and deallocations
22:18:08 <ais523> IFFI doesn't have NEXT FROM gerund, though
22:18:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and the only issues are FILE and SOCK fingerprints basically
22:18:11 <ais523> maybe I should add that
22:18:13 <tusho> ais523: NEXT FROM is post-come-from?
22:18:25 <ais523> it's COME FROM but saves a return address
22:18:34 <ais523> before the thing it comes from
22:18:47 <ais523> so you can next from it, change things, then drop back to exactly where in the code you were
22:18:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes I guess you could add it to IFFI, it is not like anyone else realistically even can implement it ;P
22:19:10 <ais523> don't be so hard on yourself
22:19:12 <AnMaster> it is very very specific to ick and patched cfunge
22:19:16 <ais523> it isn't exactly all that difficult
22:19:31 <AnMaster> ais523, really? Well I guess CLC could implement it
22:19:33 <ais523> maybe I should find another C-compatible Funge-98 interp and patch that too to demonstrate
22:19:48 <AnMaster> ais523, rc/funge is always threaded iirc
22:20:06 <AnMaster> ais523, apart from that there aren't any good ones iirc
22:20:16 <ais523> well I'll just patch a bad one then
22:20:17 <tusho> ais523: ccbi would work
22:20:23 <ais523> tusho: I don't know D, though
22:20:27 <ais523> I'd have to learn it first
22:20:29 <tusho> ais523: you wouldn't have to
22:20:34 <tusho> just copypaste his fingerprints and interface to c
22:20:38 <tusho> AnMaster: that's simple
22:20:42 <ais523> tusho: you have to insert something around the main loop
22:20:44 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and ccbi also always concurrent
22:20:48 <tusho> ais523: ok, but that wouldn't be too hard
22:20:55 <tusho> you could figure it out by trial & error and reading what he's got
22:20:58 <ais523> AnMaster: also just disabling t would likely be fine
22:21:02 <tusho> D isn't taht weird
22:21:03 <ais523> you could alter the code to make it reflect
22:21:17 <ais523> as long as there's only one thread it doesn't matter that the interp is threaded
22:21:30 <AnMaster> ais523, yep, I believe ccbi use a table of function pointers
22:21:38 <AnMaster> so simply removing the t entry should should do it
22:22:21 * AnMaster ponders concurrent efunge. It would be way way more fun if it didn't have to be synced
22:22:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it possible to implement MVRS but not t i or o=
22:24:58 <AnMaster> ais523, efunge may be not be deathstation 9000 but I'll try to make it deathstation[9|0] at least ;P
22:25:24 <ais523> AnMaster: is 0 a list, or is that unusual head-tail syntax?
22:25:49 <ais523> maybe it's 9 followed by an infinite number of 0s, that's easy to express in Prolog (although it sends the interp into an infinite loop if you try)
22:25:58 <ais523> it's also easy to express in Haskell where it actually works
22:25:58 <AnMaster> ais523, you would normally write [9, 0] there for the list, but you can construct lists like that yes
22:26:08 <ais523> in Prolog it would be [9|[0]]
22:26:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I believe those would do the same in erlang
22:26:18 <ais523> because the thing after the | is a list itself
22:27:01 <AnMaster> so lets make it deathstation{9, 0} ;)
22:28:17 <AnMaster> so lets make it deathstation<<9:4/unsigned-big, 0>>.
22:28:35 <ais523> what are you laughing at now?
22:29:13 <AnMaster> while a bitstring can be sub-byte size
22:29:46 <AnMaster> actually I think it 9 encoded in a nibble as unsigned big endian followed by 0
22:30:13 <AnMaster> ais523, the bit syntax is sometimes *too* powerful
22:30:26 <AnMaster> the 4 may be bytes or bits not sure
22:31:17 <AnMaster> 7> <<9:5/unsigned-big, 2:3/signed-little>>.
22:31:47 * ais523 is slightly worried that they could calculate that in their head
22:32:20 <AnMaster> I don't remember those details
22:32:25 <AnMaster> and what has @ got to do with it?
22:33:04 <ais523> so @ + (position of letter in alphabet) = (ASCII code for that capital letter)
22:33:36 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me if you think this makes sense: 15> <<9:5, -2:3>>.
22:33:56 <AnMaster> first is 5 bits the next is 3 bits
22:34:21 <AnMaster> you can't do TURKEY BOMB in it
22:34:37 <ais523> -2 in 3 bits is 110 so that makes sense
22:34:52 <ais523> 9 in 5 bits is 01001 which makes less sense
22:35:16 <ais523> so I'm not entirely sure where that N comes from
22:35:33 <AnMaster> ais523, what would you get it to?
22:36:00 <ais523> sorry, I set the wrong bit
22:36:04 <AnMaster> if you add them after each other
22:36:17 <ais523> I simply screwed up translating 'N' into binary
22:36:33 <ais523> is there a syntax for extracting individual bits too?
22:36:38 <ais523> if so, write mingle, now!
22:37:41 <ais523> <<a:15, b:15, a:14, b:14, a:13, b:13, a:12, b:12, a:11, b:11, a:10, b:10, a:9, b:9, a:8, b:8, a:7, b:7, a:6, b:6, a:5, b:5, a:4, b:4, a:3, b:3, a:2, b:2, a:1, b:1, a:0, b:0>>
22:37:48 <ais523> and way more readable than tusho's
22:38:10 <ais523> assuming I've got the syntax right
22:38:15 <ais523> it'll be something like that even if I haven't
22:39:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:39:22 <AnMaster> 1> MyBin = <<9:5/unsigned-big, -2:3/unsigned>>.
22:39:30 <AnMaster> 2> <<FirstBit:1,Tail/bitstring>> = MyBin.
22:39:36 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:39:44 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 1> MyBin = <<9:5/unsigned-big, -2:3/unsigned>>.
22:39:44 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 2> <<FirstBit:1,Tail/bitstring>> = MyBin.
22:39:44 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 3> {FirstBit, Tail}.
22:40:02 <AnMaster> I was going to write a function that interated over it
22:40:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> <<a:15, b:15, a:14, b:14, a:13, b:13, a:12, b:12, a:11, b:11, a:10, b:10, a:9, b:9, a:8, b:8, a:7, b:7, a:6, b:6, a:5, b:5, a:4, b:4, a:3, b:3, a:2, b:2, a:1, b:1, a:0, b:0>>
22:40:22 <ais523> AnMaster: what are you trying to do now, select?
22:40:24 <AnMaster> 5> <<a:15, b:15, a:14, b:14, a:13, b:13, a:12, b:12, a:11, b:11, a:10, b:10, a:9, b:9, a:8, b:8, a:7, b:7, a:6, b:6, a:5, b:5, a:4, b:4, a:3, b:3, a:2, b:2, a:1, b:1, a:0, b:0>>.
22:40:24 <AnMaster> ** exception error: bad argument
22:40:44 <AnMaster> ais523, also lower case = atom
22:40:44 <ais523> what's the first bit called then?
22:41:03 <ais523> and same case syntax as Prolog I see
22:41:04 <AnMaster> ais523, um that defines how many bits that field have
22:41:18 <ais523> oh, how do you extract one bit then?
22:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well you could so A:1, B:1, C:1 and so on, or you could do a tail recursive loop of some sort
22:41:53 <AnMaster> I would do a tail recursive loop
22:41:57 <AnMaster> extracting head bit every time
22:42:12 <AnMaster> then adding each to an accumulator
22:42:18 <AnMaster> if you are trying to separate them
22:42:25 <AnMaster> if you are building you want the reverse
22:42:38 <AnMaster> ais523, in both cases you want a tail recursive loop
22:42:56 <tusho> ais523: ha, my version is more readable then
22:43:16 <AnMaster> ais523, you want to join them? one bit from each?
22:43:25 <tusho> AnMaster: he wants to mingle.
22:43:46 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't remember what that meant
22:43:53 <ais523> AnMaster: alternate bits in the two numbers
22:44:30 <tusho> ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQ mingle RSTUVWXYZ1234567 = RASB(etc)
22:45:36 <ais523> you got the arguments the wrong way round
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22:48:02 <AnMaster> ais523, can you give me two numbers to test on and the result
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22:48:52 <ais523> 65535 $ 0 = 2863311530
22:48:59 <ais523> that's a nice simple one to start off with
22:49:09 <AnMaster> ais523, input is 16 bits and output 32?
22:49:21 <ais523> although doing it with more bits gives the same answer
22:49:53 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/WZOfED60.html
22:49:55 <ais523> 64280 $ 64280 is 4294901760 IIRC
22:50:14 <AnMaster> ais523, ok there may be a bug then:
22:50:26 <ais523> but yes, that definition looks right
22:50:30 <AnMaster> 9> mingle:mingle(64280, 64280).
22:50:46 <ais523> ugh, that answer is far too low to be correct
22:51:03 <AnMaster> ais523, need to sleep though soon
22:51:50 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe it's treating the numbers as signed or something like that and getting confused?
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22:52:43 <AnMaster> ais523, default is big endian in erlang binaries
22:53:12 <ais523> it could matter if it isn't being abstracted away
22:53:31 <ais523> and give the result in hex, please
22:54:55 <AnMaster> 14> io:format("~.16B~n", [mingle:mingle(16#1234, 16#4321)]).
22:55:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I get different results if I put /native in the mingle/2 (the wrapper function)
22:55:28 <ais523> ugh, that probably is the problem
22:55:35 <ais523> let me reinstall C-INTERCAL to check what the answer should be
22:55:37 <AnMaster> 16> io:format("~.16B~n", [mingle:mingle(16#1234, 16#4321)]).
22:55:40 <ais523> I uninstalled it to test the build process
22:57:15 <AnMaster> ais523, however maybe it should in fact be /little not /native, don't have any big endian system to check on
22:58:03 <ais523> well the actual answer is 0x120d0e21 according to C-INTERCAL
22:58:18 <ais523> which makes sense, it fits in with what I know about mingling
22:58:29 <AnMaster> ais523, so what may the issue be then?
22:58:44 <AnMaster> 19> io:format("~.2B~n", [mingle:mingle(16#1234, 16#4321)]).
22:58:44 <AnMaster> 10110000010010001000010001110000
22:58:55 <AnMaster> ais523, give me bit pattern for icks result
22:59:25 <ais523> 10010000011010000111000100001
23:00:02 <AnMaster> ais523, hey I get that using /big
23:00:16 <ais523> 10010000011010000111000100001
23:00:22 <AnMaster> 22> io:format("~.2B~n", [mingle:mingle(16#1234, 16#4321)]).
23:00:22 <AnMaster> 1001000101100000111000010000100
23:00:27 <ais523> wait, #esoteric blocks colours, doesn't it?
23:00:43 <ais523> there it is with every other bit in bold
23:01:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yes right, doesn't explain the result I got
23:01:34 <ais523> the bold bits spell out 4321, the unbold bits spell out 1234
23:04:21 <tusho> we can't see the bold, ais523
23:04:30 <ais523> tusho: AnMaster can, I sent it to him in /msg
23:05:04 <ais523> AnMaster's result is right when written backwards in middle-endian
23:05:08 <ais523> which doesn't really make sense at all
23:08:59 <ais523> anyway, moving back here
23:09:13 <ais523> AnMaster: the problem is that the bits come out in the wrong order, backwards to be precise
23:09:25 <ais523> so just get the solution with bits backwards, then reverse the bits pairwise
23:09:42 <ais523> the first pair, then the second, then so on
23:09:51 <AnMaster> ais523, is there a way to avoid doing it in pairs I wonder?
23:09:52 <ais523> you can easily generate pairs the other way round to make it truly backwards
23:09:57 <ais523> or just swap the arguments for that matter
23:10:03 <AnMaster> ais523, that would be more effective
23:10:15 <ais523> anyway I think you mean "efficient" not "effective"
23:10:23 <AnMaster> lists:reverse() wonder if there is a reverse for binaries too?
23:10:27 <ais523> my solution was effective (i.e. it worked) just not efficient (i.e. it wasn't fast)
23:10:40 <ais523> anyway, bit-reversal is one of INTERCAL's strong points, most languages aren't nearly as good at it
23:10:49 <ais523> C is decent, though, once you know the tricks
23:11:03 <tusho> what is this operator
23:11:30 <ais523> tusho: for each 1, it looks to see if there's a 1 to its left
23:11:32 <ais523> and returns the result
23:11:45 <tusho> ais523: haha, that is great
23:11:48 <tusho> any practical applications?
23:11:50 <ais523> as in, you get the set of digits to the left of 1s
23:12:05 <ais523> actually, arithmetic's all about this sort of thing in practice
23:12:10 <AnMaster> what is ~ now again? bitwise not?
23:12:20 <tusho> i meant the C meaning
23:12:28 <ais523> tusho: bitwise not only takes one argument, though
23:12:33 <tusho> ais523: ok, i mean
23:12:36 <ais523> I assumed it was INTERCAL select because you gave it two arguments
23:12:43 <tusho> 1111 ~ 0000 = 1111
23:12:49 <tusho> 1111 ~ 1010 = 0101
23:12:53 <tusho> that's the operator i'm talking about
23:13:00 <ais523> tusho: what happens when the first arg isn't 1111?
23:13:02 <tusho> the last argument is a pattern: for every 1, that bit is NOT'd in the left argument
23:13:14 <tusho> for every 1 in the second argument, the bit at the same position is NOT'd in the left argument
23:13:16 <ais523> is what tusho's trying to describe
23:13:22 <tusho> that is my dyadic ~
23:13:39 <ais523> that is just bitwise XOR that tusho's described
23:13:42 <ais523> which is called ^ in C
23:13:46 <ais523> it has a perfectly good name already
23:13:56 <tusho> ok, the op is (x<<1)^x
23:14:03 <tusho> what does THAT do, apart from what it says
23:14:05 <ais523> and (x << 1)^x is INTERCAL xor
23:14:05 <tusho> I mean, anything useful
23:14:11 <tusho> ais523: is it? bahhahaha
23:14:15 <ais523> except that INTERCAL xor does a rotate not a select
23:14:28 <ais523> as in the top bit of x << 1 gets copied to the bottom bit
23:14:35 <ais523> sort of a bitshift with carry
23:14:47 <ais523> and it does have uses, the implementation of greater-than for instance
23:14:49 <AnMaster> ais523, there is an x86 instruction for it iirc
23:14:55 <ais523> which is one of the great triumphs of INTERCAL-72
23:15:01 <ais523> and yes, lots of machines have rotate instructions
23:15:07 <tusho> ais523: what is this
23:15:22 <AnMaster> ais523: no mainstream high level languages seem to offer it
23:15:25 <tusho> i'm making up a silly thing
23:15:48 <ais523> tusho: destroys the sign bit and copies it from the bit above it, if signed
23:16:01 <tusho> ais523: that is great
23:16:11 <ais523> if unsigned it's boring, it's just x & ((1 << (bits-1))-1)
23:16:34 <tusho> ais523: it's returning 0 for me, always
23:16:39 <AnMaster> but doesn't it move the whole number one step?
23:16:43 <ais523> tusho: whoops, I misread it
23:16:48 <ais523> I calculated (x<<1)>>1
23:17:03 <ais523> what you wrote always returns 0 with a positive argument
23:17:08 <ais523> and is undefined with a negative argument
23:17:20 <AnMaster> ais523, undefined with negative? how so?
23:17:29 <ais523> AnMaster: shift a negative amount
23:17:38 <ais523> not to mention the overflow if the argument happens to be INT_MIN
23:19:12 <AnMaster> ais523, would shift the other way obviously
23:23:22 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I was wrong, for lists access at head is more effective
23:23:36 <AnMaster> for binaries reading at head and writing at tail is most efficient
23:24:09 <ais523> s/effective/efficient/
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23:33:02 <AnMaster> ais523, do you think the result was elegant btw?
23:33:10 <ais523> anyway, I have to go home now
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23:34:46 <oklofok> i gotta ask him about that quit message
23:34:56 <oklofok> the number 9 has been bugging me for weeks
23:35:06 <oklofok> it seems to be in my head every time i close my eyes
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02:12:33 <ihope> I want to come up with a very simple set of Thue rules that are... Thue-complete.
02:13:31 <ihope> So that any Thue program can be converted into a Thue subprogram under these rules that runs with just as much nondeterminism, just as quickly.
02:15:13 <ihope> And after doing that, I want to engineer bacteria that rewrite strands of nucleic acid according to those rules.
02:19:02 <Sgeo> Me on a test: "Client, server, and circuit are NOT the three hardware components of a network, because client and server are properties of the software, not hardware. However, that was probably the anticipated response"
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03:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | afk eating cake and drinking coffe.
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09:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | how would the code for C-INTERCAL be compiled on that? you would need to convert to tri-graphs right?.
09:58:44 <puzzlet> honestly speaking i don't get the topic
10:17:51 <fizzie> Trigraphs are a relatively rare C feature to cope with systems whose character sets do not include the characters C needs. For example you can write "??/" to get a "\", so you can use "??/n" as a newline in a string constant.
10:19:26 <fizzie> GCC does those when called with -trigraphs or -std=c<something>.
10:19:46 <fizzie> So I assume the topic is about some system with a limited character set, or something.
10:20:38 <fizzie> An EBCDIC system, it seems. Not unsurprising.
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10:22:58 <fizzie> I remember there being an amusing snippet about trigraphs in the GCC documentation, but can't seem to find it now.
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13:04:20 <tusho> yeah, i absolutely won that one
13:04:36 <ais523> as I didn't start typing until after you'd finished
13:04:36 <tusho> joined 2008-09-23 13:03:37 +0100
13:04:39 <tusho> sent message two seconds later
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13:18:09 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I think I managed to implement the select operator in erlang too
13:18:22 <AnMaster> got some tests? the ones I tried seem to work
13:18:57 <ais523> hmm, I don't have tests offhand but I can just try putting some random big numbers into intercalc
13:20:38 <ais523> '#12345$#12345'~#58990 is CXIII (or 113)
13:20:46 <ais523> a random test case I used on INTERCAL
13:21:19 <AnMaster> ais523, um that would be select(mingle(12345, 12345), 58990) ?
13:21:44 <AnMaster> 7> intercal:select(intercal:mingle(12345, 12345), 58990).
13:21:54 <AnMaster> 5> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:select(2#11100, 2#10101)]).
13:22:22 <AnMaster> yet I get 807 for your instead of 113
13:22:26 <ais523> hmm... try with a number more than 16 bits long
13:22:42 <AnMaster> 1> intercal:mingle(12345, 12345).
13:22:55 <ais523> something really simple like intercal:select(2#11001100110011001100, 2#1010101010101010101010)
13:23:04 <ais523> AnMaster: let me check, I calculated it but the answer came out in Roman numerals
13:23:47 <ais523> 25165122525 is the actual answer from the mingle
13:24:00 <AnMaster> 9> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:select(2#11001100110011001100, 2#1010101010101010101010)]).
13:24:06 <ais523> that select looks right
13:24:11 <ais523> so my guess is it's mingle playing up again
13:24:27 <AnMaster> ais523, btw select uses big endian, didn't work otherwise
13:24:42 <ais523> there should just be some option to use maths-endian
13:25:05 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? There is native too
13:25:14 <AnMaster> 10> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:mingle(12345, 12345)]).
13:25:25 <ais523> what's 12345 in binary?
13:25:38 <AnMaster> 11> io:format("~.2B~n", [12345]).
13:25:53 <ais523> ok, that mingle's wrong
13:26:10 <ais523> and I'm having problems figuring out wtf it's done to the bit order
13:26:19 <ais523> all your versions of mingle seem to output the right bits in the wrong order
13:26:38 <AnMaster> ais523, it is the same one that we thought worked yesterday
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13:27:15 <AnMaster> ais523, you said it should be 25165122525?
13:27:28 <AnMaster> 10111011011111101010100101111011101
13:27:38 <ais523> Roman numerals are hard to read
13:27:48 <ais523> and the answer should definitely have 1s and 0s in pairs
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13:28:37 <ais523> \C\C\L\IdclxiiCCLXXV in CLC-INTERCAL format
13:28:48 <ais523> C-INTERCAL format requires a fixed-width font and is two lines high
13:28:51 <oerjan> you could use some spread function as an intermediate, that just intersperses 0 between all bits
13:29:03 <ais523> I'll use tty.i and a debugger, at least that will get the output in decimal
13:29:37 <oerjan> and then mingle(x,y) = 2*spread(x) + spread(y)
13:29:52 <ais523> C1: Expression is 0xf000fc3
13:30:02 <ais523> oerjan: that's what C-INTERCAL does
13:30:04 <oerjan> where 2* and + could easily be done with bit operations instead
13:30:07 <ais523> except it does it with bit operations
13:30:13 <AnMaster> ais523, which is 1111000000000000111111000011
13:30:25 <ais523> yes, that last answer is the right one I think
13:30:27 <AnMaster> *closer* to mine but not that close
13:30:57 <ais523> ah, I know how I misread it
13:31:04 <ais523> accidentally read lx as 51 rather than 6
13:31:16 <ais523> and likewise LXX as 52 rather than 7
13:31:22 <ais523> wow, my Roman Numerals have got rusty...
13:31:22 <AnMaster> my mingle gives 1032975 not 251662275
13:31:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it's outputting the bits in the wrong order
13:31:54 <AnMaster> ais523, but wrong order *how* this time?
13:32:17 <ais523> I don't know, it would be so much easier if the bits were separate colours so we could track them...
13:32:23 <tusho> #ESOTERIC NEWS BULLETIN
13:32:23 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, I know, I was referring to the span of digits
13:32:31 <tusho> AIS523 RESIGNS AS MAINTAINER OF C-INTERCAL
13:32:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: do you have a paste for that mingle code?
13:32:36 <tusho> CITES "ROMAN NUMERAL PROBLEMS"
13:32:37 * ais523 imagines beepy music in the background
13:32:57 <tusho> APPARENTLY ERIC S. RAYMOND, THE ORIGINAL WRITER, IS TAKING OVER
13:33:00 <ais523> tusho: nah, I was working on the build system further this morning
13:33:11 <tusho> IN AN UNRELATED NOTE, C-INTERCAL USAGE DROPS 70% GOING TO CLC-INTERCAL.
13:33:12 <ais523> it now works with -j2 (and presumably with -jN for all N)
13:33:19 <tusho> USERS CITE "ESR" PROBLEMS.
13:33:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: i mean a link
13:33:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/lrtTEi50.html
13:33:28 <ais523> also I think it works on cross-compile
13:33:30 <tusho> THANK YOU FOR WATCHING. WE'LL BE BACK IN A FEW HOURS.
13:33:40 <ais523> I have a cross-compiler here but not an ARM processor to run the results on
13:34:21 <ais523> and actually I like that select
13:34:40 <ais523> it could be optimised by exploiting the fact that Acc1 is always 0, though
13:35:00 <ais523> but presumably its length matters?
13:35:05 <AnMaster> ais523, problem is knowing the length yes
13:35:15 <AnMaster> you need to know how much to extract at the end
13:35:21 <oerjan> ouch erlang is harder than i hoped
13:35:32 <AnMaster> ais523, seems size() returns whole bytes only
13:35:55 <AnMaster> a better way would maybe be incrementing a number to record number of bits
13:36:03 <AnMaster> but I'd like to fix mingle first
13:37:12 <tusho> oerjan: might be just AnMaster's code...
13:37:24 <oerjan> oh <<>> is a kind of bit field record syntax, i guess
13:37:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is binary/bitstring syntax
13:37:40 <tusho> excuse the fact that it's obscure and impossible to read
13:37:55 <ais523> the obvious version would just be the first one you pasted, with mingle(T1, T2, <<H1:1, H2:1, Acc/bitstring>>)
13:38:03 <ais523> that looks like it should work, but IIRC it didn't
13:38:12 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should install Erlang to test stuff
13:38:14 <AnMaster> Correct: 1111 0000 0000 0000 1111 1100 0011
13:38:14 <AnMaster> Mine: 1111 1100 0011 0000 1111
13:39:06 <tusho> Why is "I'm curious, How many redditors listen to NPR (at least one show per day)", a self.reddit post, #1 on reddit.
13:39:13 <tusho> It's not a link to anything. It's just a bunch of people answering a question.
13:39:20 <tusho> Why is it #1 on a site supposed to be links to interesting stuff?
13:39:36 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not nibble-basis at all, it's swapped the first 16 bits with the second 16 bits, but left-justified for some reason
13:39:49 <ais523> if I pad to the right with 0s (note this is not normally a mathematically sensible operation):
13:40:02 <ais523> correct: 1111 0000 0000 0000-1111 1100 0011 0000
13:40:16 <ais523> yours: 1111 1100 0011 0000-1111 0000 0000 0000
13:40:30 <ais523> but why is it padding /rightwards/?
13:40:35 <ais523> that changes the value of a number
13:40:45 <ais523> and numbers don't intrinsically have a particular number of bits
13:41:05 <oerjan> maybe it's using some endianness on the level of bytes?
13:41:18 <oerjan> which conflicts with the one inside bytes
13:41:20 <ais523> oerjan: it would have to be middle-endian to swap 16-bit blocks
13:41:24 <ais523> and nothing is middle-endian nowadays
13:41:34 <tusho> just for no reason
13:41:38 <ais523> I think the one of the PDP computers was the most recent to do that
13:41:44 <tusho> http://www.google.com/search?q=erlang%20middle-endian
13:42:05 <oerjan> could that :16/little-unsigned qualifier be messing things up?
13:42:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, the default is indeed big
13:42:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, however it didn't work at all with big before
13:42:49 <oerjan> ah, so you put Int1 and Int2 as little-endian but the _result_ is interpreted as big
13:43:09 <AnMaster> 24> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:mingle(12345, 12345)]).
13:43:30 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't make any sense though :P
13:43:48 <oerjan> oh wait you have :32/little-unsigned on the result pattern
13:44:00 * ais523 downloads Erlang from the Ubuntu repos
13:44:31 <AnMaster> ais523, erl -man erlang for example for that module, for language ref http://www.erlang.org/doc/reference_manual/part_frame.html
13:45:44 <ais523> according to the docs it should work even with no endianness specifier at all
13:45:46 <AnMaster> 29> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:mingle(16#1234, 16#4321)]).
13:47:42 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/h1LInl74.html
13:48:13 * ais523 tries to think up a sensible way to calculate 16#1234 mingle 16#4321
13:48:51 <ais523> all INTERCAL calculators take input in decimal though
13:48:58 <ais523> so I simply used bash to convert to decimal in the end
13:48:59 <oerjan> well you can do each hex digit pair separately
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13:49:25 <ais523> C1: Expression is 0x120d0e21
13:49:30 <AnMaster> ais523, or in bash: echo $(( 0x1234 ))
13:49:37 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I used the bash echo method
13:50:58 <AnMaster> well I think my last mingle works now
13:51:20 <AnMaster> 42> intercal:select(intercal:mingle(12345, 12345), 58990).
13:51:27 <AnMaster> and that was your original one too
13:51:39 <ais523> you could have a go at the other three INTERCAL-72 operators as well if you like, to finish the set
13:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't really understand how they work
13:52:14 <ais523> ok, using lowercase letters for bits:
13:52:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I implemented select from http://esolangs.org/wiki/INTERCAL#Expression_syntax
13:53:06 <ais523> V2#abcdefghijklmnop is <<p|a,a|b,b|c,c|d,d|e,e|f,f|g,g|h,h|i,i|j,j|k,k|l,l|m,m|n,n|o,o|p>>
13:53:09 <ais523> where | means bitwise or
13:53:16 <ais523> and V is intercal's unary OR operator
13:53:20 <ais523> well, the 16-bit version
13:53:37 <ais523> they're overloaded in INTERCAL, there's both the 16-bit version and the 32-bit version, which follow the same pattern
13:54:16 <AnMaster> ais523, so the last bit is used to or the first bit?
13:54:33 <ais523> and placed in the topmost bit of the result
13:54:37 <ais523> each bit is used exactly twice
13:54:51 <ais523> numbers don't really have first and last bits
13:54:55 <ais523> topmost == most significant
13:55:07 <ais523> I'm not sure which end of the number the most significant bit is at in Erlang
13:56:17 <AnMaster> 3> <<H:1,_/bitstring>> = <<2#10000000>>.
13:56:51 <AnMaster> ais523, so p is unchanged at the end then?
13:57:25 <ais523> you get p|a in the most significant bit and o|p in the least significant
13:57:59 <oerjan> this should be easy if erlang has ordinary bit operations on bitstrings
13:58:21 <oerjan> could use a higher order function
13:58:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, you have bitshift and such on numbers
13:58:37 <oerjan> i'm talking about or, and and xor
13:59:10 <AnMaster> well exists on integers but not on full binaries
13:59:30 <AnMaster> you could convert it into a list I guess
13:59:33 <oerjan> right maybe no use for bitstrings then
14:00:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, well the bit you extract at the head of the binary is a number
14:00:34 <AnMaster> so bxor or such would work on that
14:01:09 <oerjan> yay, Irregular Webcomic's presidential election is _really_ improving now
14:02:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: you just need to rotate, and then use an integer bit operation with the original number
14:02:39 <ais523> ah, of course oerjan is an accomplished INTERCAL programmer
14:03:00 <ais523> so knows what e's talking about here, yes, that's a good way to describe it
14:03:33 <AnMaster> there is bit shift but not bit rotate
14:03:52 <oerjan> that is easy to do with bitstrings i presume
14:03:55 <ais523> bit rotate's easy enough to implement with bitmasking and shifts
14:04:03 <ais523> but with pattern-matching bitstrings it's still easier
14:05:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, it would be rather inefficient. rotating like that. Erlang got single assignment. but the tail in the binary can still work without copies thanks to it just being a pointer into the binary.
14:05:37 <AnMaster> rotating would for various reasons upset that
14:05:54 <AnMaster> for more info I suggest reading http://www.erlang.org/doc/efficiency_guide/binaryhandling.html
14:05:57 <oerjan> oh so it's a linked list sort of thing?
14:06:08 <ais523> AnMaster: pointers to single bits of memory are likely to be less efficient than copying a single 32-bit integer
14:06:11 <tusho> #ESOTERIC NEWS BULLETIN: Erlang takes over a day to do a trivial task done in other languages in a few minutes even for people who don't understand it, even though it has special data structures for strings of bits and such.
14:06:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, not a bitstring no, Erlang have Lisp style lists too
14:06:26 <ais523> that efficiency guide is presumably for large binaries
14:06:38 <ais523> tusho: there is a wtf here, but you've completely mistaken where it is
14:06:40 <AnMaster> ais523, hm true for that part.
14:06:52 <tusho> ais523: either erlang or AnMaster, I'm guessing
14:06:53 <AnMaster> well I'm not sure what oerjan meant
14:07:09 <ais523> tusho: <ais523> AnMaster: pointers to single bits of memory are likely to be less efficient than copying a single 32-bit integer
14:07:30 <ais523> and it's not a wtf with Erlang, it's a wtf due to generalising documentation without thinking about the edge cases
14:07:52 <tusho> ais523: however - it's taken over a whole day
14:08:00 <tusho> to write a function that is what, 10 lines or something now?
14:08:07 <tusho> and still doesn't work? even though it's doing something really simple?
14:08:13 <tusho> it doesn't really make me think well of erlang...
14:08:13 <ais523> it took several months to get the C versions of the INTERCAL operators right
14:08:24 <ais523> and working efficiently
14:08:29 <tusho> ais523: efficiently isn't a goal here
14:08:34 <ais523> OTOH, Erlang doesn't have a ternary type
14:08:41 <tusho> I wrote my c one in like 5 minutes after I clarified everything
14:08:50 <ais523> so it'll have to general-case the bases other than 2, just like C-INTERCAL does
14:10:03 <tusho> ais523: so you think that it's OK for erlang to cause this much hoo-hah over implementing mingle even though it has a special bitstring type thing with pattern matching designed for stuff like this, even though I wrote a C version in 5 minutes (mostly starting doing it manually then realising I could generate it) after getting exactly what it does
14:10:40 <ais523> tusho: I wrote an Erlang version (with the wrong syntax) in about 3 minutes, and could have fixed it easily
14:10:53 <oerjan> ok what's wrong with rot1(Int) -> <<X:15, H:1>> = <<Int:16>, <<R:16>> = <<H:1, X:15>, R. if i got the syntax right
14:10:54 <ais523> AnMaster wanted to use a loop for some reason, I think he's invented a bignum mingle
14:10:57 <tusho> ah, so it's just more "AnMaster is terrible at erlang"
14:11:13 <ais523> oerjan: that looks more or less right, any mistakes in it are due to me not knowing Erlang
14:11:31 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it should work with a few changes for bignum
14:12:19 <ais523> oerjan: what would your definition of rot13(Int) be, by the way?
14:13:01 <oerjan> just replace 15 and 1 by 13 and 3 or possibly the other way around
14:13:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, and well it works for 16 bit integers sure. :)
14:13:26 <ais523> oerjan: I was actually wondering how much you would redefine the function
14:13:31 <ais523> to suit the change in name
14:13:58 <oerjan> well ints are not character strings...
14:14:06 <AnMaster> anyway it would be rot13_16 or something, since you operate on 16 bits there
14:14:10 <oerjan> and also, i don't know erlang
14:14:15 <ais523> it's not necessarily an integer, it's just called Int
14:14:23 <oerjan> can the part after : be a variable?
14:14:40 <AnMaster> ais523, strings are a list of integers. or a binary
14:14:55 <oerjan> if it can then it would be easy to write a general one
14:16:30 <AnMaster> 2> "abcd" =:= [$a, $b, $c, $d].
14:17:15 <oerjan> erlang doesn't have pattern guards like haskell does it? might be nice for a rot13 function
14:18:13 <AnMaster> foo(A) when is_integer(A) and (A > 100) -> A*A.
14:19:18 <ais523> ah, now that's neater in Prolog: foo(A,Rv) :- is_integer(A), A > 100, Rv is A*A.
14:20:07 <AnMaster> ais523, actually you can use , there iirc, but with and it is more readable IMO
14:20:32 <ais523> Prolog uses , for and and ; for or too
14:20:37 <ais523> and you can write out the words
14:20:43 <ais523> they're so common though that nobody ever does
14:20:57 <ais523> foo(A,Rv) if is_integer(A) and A > 100 and Rv is A*A.
14:21:04 <ais523> just looks like a long run-on sentence, anyway
14:21:08 <ais523> so the symbols are more usual
14:21:24 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't work, iirc that will be (is_integer(A) and A) > 100
14:21:33 <AnMaster> which will cause issues since true > 100 makes no sense
14:21:41 <ais523> and and or have lower precedences than anything
14:22:38 <AnMaster> true is larger than 100, this is defined to make sorting in list with mixed things easier
14:22:42 <AnMaster> number < atom < reference < fun < port < pid < tuple < list < binary
14:23:00 <ais523> in C true is normally less than 100, not always though
14:23:28 <ais523> well you can compare strings to integers in C too
14:23:38 <ais523> for instance "true" > 100 is almost certainly true
14:23:41 <ais523> not a good idea, though
14:23:50 <AnMaster> yes but that will be the first char's value
14:24:03 <ais523> that would be *"true" > 100
14:24:15 <ais523> it's comparing the integral value of the pointer to the number
14:24:24 <fizzie> You are likely to get a warning for that anyway.
14:24:49 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/0OeXKS19.html
14:25:20 <AnMaster> - - <-- something went wrong in the paste there
14:25:21 <ais523> ah, so and and or are operators in Erlang
14:25:28 <ais523> they're keywords in Prolog
14:26:01 <AnMaster> ais523, operators yes, but you can't make a function called or.
14:26:15 <ais523> heh, in Algol 68 you can call a function anything
14:26:48 <AnMaster> well you may be able to by quoting it, depends on if it treats functions at atom names or as something else
14:27:04 <AnMaster> since you *can* make atoms that doesn't start with a lower case char
14:27:25 <ais523> in algol 68 you got to choose whether you quoted the keywords or the identifiers or both
14:27:34 <ais523> also, in Prolog you can have arbitrary atoms too
14:27:43 <AnMaster> but that is kind of confusing, so normally not used
14:27:49 <ais523> they use the same syntax as strings for things that don't start with lowercase letters
14:27:58 <ais523> but atoms and strings are freely coercible so it doesn't matter
14:28:14 <ais523> and the compiler/interp will just pick one depending on which it feels would work better
14:28:20 <AnMaster> > atom_to_list('This is a Valid erlang Atom').
14:29:26 <AnMaster> (atom_to_list/1 is from the erlang module, which contains BIFs, that is built in functions, some of them are "auto imported" and thus doesn't need the module specifier erlang:)
14:31:38 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know of any systems which need cflags set in the environment to be able to compile?
14:32:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well depends. If I want to compile a 32-bit binary on my 64-bit multilib system then yes
14:32:52 <ais523> I'm thinking about the C-INTERCAL build
14:32:56 <ais523> at the moment it configures twice
14:33:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well doesn't automake have some AM_CFLAGS or such if you want to add custom ones?
14:33:11 <ais523> once with the settings you give, for the stuff it ends up with
14:33:25 <ais523> and once with a blank environment for the OIL compiler and other things only used during the build
14:33:46 <ais523> that way cross-compile works, it builds a OIL cross-compiler that runs natively and then cross-compiles everything else
14:34:37 <fizzie> Configure twice, build once, like that old old saying goes.
14:35:38 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/configure.ac, http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/buildaux/buildconfig.ac and http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/buildaux/Makefile.am, if you're interested in how the build system works at present
14:35:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I know that need custom LDFLAGS though
14:35:53 <ais523> personally I think it's more streamlined and nicer to use than even Automake at default
14:36:07 <AnMaster> don't remember the details but pretty sure I read about that once
14:36:08 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think Automake even pays attention to LDFLAGS
14:36:13 <tusho> dnl Yes, that is a valid email address. If your mailer doesn't support nested
14:36:14 <tusho> dnl comments, then get a better mailer.
14:36:16 <tusho> I wonder if gmail does?
14:37:04 <ais523> also, dnl is the second most insane idea for making comments work in a language I know, after INTERCAL's
14:37:09 <tusho> The email address "ais523" is not recognised. Please fix it and try again.
14:37:47 <tusho> I think its using the comment as a name
14:38:30 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
14:38:33 -!- oklopol has joined.
14:40:09 <tusho> yay, soon tusho.net will be an openid
14:40:32 <ais523> tusho: what do you think of my build process by the way?
14:40:37 <AnMaster> ais523, you said <<p|a,a|b,b|c,c|d,d|e,e|f,f|g,g|h,h|i,i|j,j|k,k|l,l|m,m|n,n|o,o|p>>, so creating a list with p added at the start then taking every pair in it should work or?
14:40:40 <tusho> ais523: I don't understand it.
14:40:43 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it should
14:40:48 <ais523> tusho: it's way neater than gcc's
14:40:59 <ais523> it claims to be written in autoconf, but it isn't really
14:41:15 <ais523> it uses autoconf macros for a few things like options, most of it's written directly in shell script though
14:42:22 <tusho> wtf, someone just claimed http://intertwingly.net/ looks like 1996 :D
14:47:56 <oklopol> umm, 1996 was new like ten years ago
14:48:43 <ais523> ugh, I'm getting more spam in German
14:49:19 <tusho> ais523: i love that spam
14:49:31 <tusho> read it out loud and imagine an old german guy with a moustache and glasses saying it
14:50:25 <AnMaster> 4> intercal:unary_or(16#1234).
14:51:11 <ais523> wait, was that output in decimal?
14:51:21 <ais523> give the output in hex, then I can try to work it out in my head
14:51:26 * oerjan got this spam in "norwegian" today. i _really_ wonder if spammers actually get hits on this insanely badly translated stuff...
14:51:40 <ais523> oerjan: what was it, BabelFish norwegian
14:52:19 <ais523> nah, should be 367C I think
14:52:49 <oerjan> what was worse was it tried to claim to be from the university (some phishing stuff)
14:53:07 <tusho> they just do it to avoid spam filters
14:53:08 * ais523 wonders why phishers are so bad at spelling
14:53:12 <tusho> and put the actaul content in an attached image
14:53:18 <ais523> you would think it would be a bit of a giveaway...
14:53:28 <oerjan> it wasn't just spelling, but horrible grammar too
14:53:40 <ais523> use the images that are attached to spam as CAPTCHAs
14:53:49 <ais523> that way the spammers end up fighting an arms war against each other
14:53:54 <AnMaster> ais523, 367C is 1B3E but with an extra 0 bit at the end
14:54:36 <ais523> AnMaster: show your code?
14:55:06 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/fvPJUc40.html
14:55:43 <oerjan> tusho: oh that may be it. i read my mail on nvg through an xterm so i don't see attachments automatically
14:55:44 <oklopol> ais523: what do you mean by taht?
14:56:05 <ais523> oklopol: spammers obfuscate their attached images to stop anti-spam systems detecting them
14:56:18 <ais523> so you use the spammer's own technology to stop spam
14:56:29 <ais523> by either making their CAPTCHAbots detect the anti-spam
14:56:39 <ais523> or else having captchas which are too hard for the spammers to crack
14:56:45 <tusho> mine the obfuscated images
14:56:47 <ais523> it must be one or the other as it's the same problem from opposite sides
14:56:48 <tusho> and put them on websites
14:56:54 <tusho> then, the website spammers
14:56:58 <tusho> will have to break those
14:57:01 <oklopol> i thought you somehow meant the spammers would directly have to decrypt their own images or something.
14:57:02 <tusho> so that we can steal the breakage
14:57:03 <tusho> to detect their spam
14:57:08 <tusho> they won't be able to break it
14:57:09 <ais523> oklopol: no, each other's images
14:57:11 <ais523> but it comes to the same thing
14:57:12 <tusho> and website spam will drop
14:57:12 <oklopol> but right, as captchas somewhere else
14:57:25 <tusho> ais523: they're different breeds, is the problem
14:57:27 <tusho> email & website spammers
14:57:31 <tusho> your thing can kill the latter
14:57:34 <tusho> but the former will just keep going
14:57:43 <ais523> you think the email spammers would win?
14:57:52 <tusho> also: when spammers break captchas
14:57:53 <ais523> and lots of people would like it if you could kill website spam at a stroke
14:57:55 <tusho> they never reveal HOW...
14:58:02 <ais523> personally I think the website spammers would win
14:58:10 <ais523> as there's a limit to how ingenious captchas could get
14:58:11 <tusho> ais523: but you'd have to tell websites things like
14:58:18 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea why you want an ending 0 bit there
14:58:22 <tusho> Ch!ea p via.gra www.cheapviagracialis.inFo
14:58:33 <tusho> that... is not good user experience, nobody wants to enter that on a website about kittens
14:58:41 <ais523> also, what's the capital F on the TLD for?
14:58:48 <tusho> ais523: avoiding OCR
14:58:54 <tusho> also: getting the punctuation and spacing and everything right will just annoy the user
14:59:01 <tusho> they'll just not do it
14:59:13 <tusho> 'ash3yda7' is about as much as they'lle nter
14:59:23 <ais523> have you seen how silly some captchas are at the moment?
14:59:29 <tusho> and people complain
14:59:33 <ais523> which is probably easier for computers than humans
14:59:37 <tusho> rapidshare fixed their cat-captcha
14:59:42 <tusho> after people exploded into RAGE
14:59:48 <ais523> they weren't the only people using it I think
14:59:52 <ais523> it got quite popular once
15:00:04 <tusho> some letters have cats printed on top of them
15:00:05 <ais523> oklopol: AnMaster: lots of distorted letters as usual
15:00:08 <tusho> you have to only enter the ones with cats on them.
15:00:13 <ais523> but you only type the ones with faint images of cats printed on them
15:00:14 <tusho> also, the cats kind of overlap other letters
15:00:17 <tusho> and they don't even look like cats.
15:00:18 <tusho> and they're faint.
15:00:19 <ais523> there are ones with dogs printed on them instead
15:00:28 <tusho> and you can't enter them
15:00:33 <ais523> and they aren't even drawn with lines, just with dots forming a pattern
15:00:36 <tusho> pretty much the stupidest thing ever, which is why they fixed it
15:00:49 <oklopol> perhaps one of vjn's domains should be just about captchas
15:00:58 <ais523> the ironic thing is that they hardly obfuscated the letters themselves
15:01:08 <AnMaster> that sort of thing may be too hard for humans
15:01:19 <ais523> AnMaster: as I said, most likely easier for computers than humans
15:01:46 <ais523> AnMaster: as for your unary or, why on earth are you using a loop?
15:01:55 <AnMaster> ais523, did you test that unary or on 0x1234 in intercal or?
15:01:57 <ais523> it makes it pretty hard to figure out exactly what's going on
15:02:03 <ais523> AnMaster: I did it in my head
15:02:22 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you suggest using instead? To be usable with bignum
15:02:22 <ais523> unary or and and are the easiest of the operators to do in one's head
15:02:29 <AnMaster> ais523, the wrapper isn't bignum
15:02:29 <ais523> AnMaster: bignums don't have a top bit anyway
15:02:45 <ais523> so it's kind-of hard to see what the operators would do
15:02:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought top bit set rounded upwards to whole byte :)
15:03:30 <ais523> AnMaster: if you make that whole pair of bytes it'll be quite similar to INTERCAL's dynamic typing
15:03:40 <ais523> although the way typing actually works in INTERCAL is that there are two data types
15:03:49 <ais523> most operators have fixed prototypes
15:04:02 <ais523> but select returns either 16-bit or 32-bit depending on how many 1 bits are in its rightmost operand
15:04:46 <ais523> (N.B. C-INTERCAL doesn't actually do all that, but cheats; there's a case in INTERCAL-72 that messes up in C-INTERCAL by design, as a result, and is far too ingrained to fix)
15:05:39 <AnMaster> ais523, if you read that file you will see that the "private" functions should work for any binaries. and the wrappers are fixed size
15:05:48 <AnMaster> there is a plan behind that yes
15:05:58 <ais523> are you planning to invent bignum INTERCAL, though?
15:06:19 <AnMaster> ais523, remember the ICAL fingerprint Mike Riley made?
15:06:33 <ais523> oh dear, did it forget to specify the bitwidths?
15:06:39 <AnMaster> ais523, now efunge have bignum cells so...
15:06:46 <tusho> ais523: NIETCRLA would have a bignum mode
15:06:56 <tusho> (my hypothetical INTERCAL interpreter, see if you can get the name)
15:06:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it assumed fixed size cells
15:07:06 <tusho> (Pronounced nyet-cur-lah)
15:07:12 <ais523> tusho: I do, it's one of the possible variants on 64 bit middle-endian
15:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact efunge is the only bignum befunge-98 that I know about
15:07:18 <oklopol> tusho: it's quite a powerful encryption
15:07:40 <AnMaster> ais523, so thus i need bignum versions
15:07:47 <ais523> AnMaster: the problem is that many idiomatic INTERCAL expressions only work with fixed-size cells
15:08:28 <ais523> DO .5 <- '?"'&"':2~:5'~'"'?"'?":5~:5"~"#65535$
15:08:28 <ais523> #65535"'~'#65535$#0'"$#32768'~'#0$#65535'"
15:08:28 <ais523> $"'?":5~:5"~"#65535$#65535"'~'#0$#65535'"'
15:08:28 <ais523> "$"':5~:5'~#1"'~#1"$#2'~#3
15:08:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well if I did it for cfunge it would end up as 32-bit or 64-bit depending on compile time options. You mean programs won't work then?
15:08:44 <ais523> AnMaster: look at all the hardcoded constants in the above
15:09:23 <ais523> the original syslib version
15:09:32 <AnMaster> ais523, actually ICAL do seem to specify bitwidth
15:09:38 <ais523> (I later determined that part of the code was redundant, but everyone had been too confused to work it out)
15:09:56 <AnMaster> ais523, however I would like to make bignum versions anyway, bignum intercal would be fun
15:10:00 <ais523> the point is that INTERCAL has 16-bit and 32-bit data types, pretty much no matter what it's working on
15:10:16 <ais523> if you do make bignum INTERCAL, I suggest that you have a bignum consisting of all 1s
15:10:29 <ais523> that you can mingle with a bignum consisting of all 0s so as to get alternating 1s and 0s
15:10:32 <tusho> ais523: NIETCRLA would also have C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL modes, because I'm crazy like that
15:10:34 <oklopol> wouldn't that be kinda pointless though
15:10:34 <AnMaster> ais523, that would probably be possible in haskell
15:10:48 <tusho> hmm.. I like the name ITRALCEN better
15:10:52 <tusho> see if you can work THAT on out...
15:10:56 <oklopol> oh, have one bignum like that
15:10:59 <AnMaster> ais523, however erlang doesn't have infinite lists since it wasn't made by mathematicians :P
15:11:05 <ais523> you have to be able to do something like that in order to get most expressions to work
15:11:29 <ais523> tusho: you have half the characters backwards, alternating between the two sides
15:11:35 <oklopol> it's simple to make that kind of infinite bignum work
15:11:39 <tusho> ais523: no, just like this
15:11:48 <oklopol> it will have a finite amount of data at any point, and the normalization of representation is simple
15:11:54 <tusho> INTERCAL -> take the first and second letter -> type them -> put the cursor between them -> repeat with rest of strong
15:11:55 <oklopol> basically just cut it into blocks
15:12:05 <ais523> tusho: comes to the same thing, just a differnet way to describe it
15:12:11 <tusho> IN ITEN ITRCEN ITRALCEN
15:12:13 <ais523> oklopol: yes, that would work I think
15:12:26 <ais523> tusho: that looks vaguely like the Latin motto for something
15:12:38 <ais523> it's just missing a couple more vowels to work visually
15:13:41 <AnMaster> 9> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:unary_or(16#1234)]).
15:13:41 <AnMaster> 11> io:format("~.2B~n", [16#367C]).
15:13:59 <AnMaster> ais523, so are you sure about that last 0?
15:15:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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15:16:07 <ais523> [Tue Sep 23 2008] [15:14:05] <ais523> yes
15:16:09 <ais523> [Tue Sep 23 2008] [15:14:29] <ais523> what's unary_or(1) with your implementation
15:16:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
15:17:30 <oklopol> so, intercal or, (x<<1)|x?
15:17:43 <AnMaster> ais523: 14> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:unary_or(1)]).
15:17:43 <AnMaster> 10000000000000000000000000000001
15:17:43 <ais523> oklopol: pretty much, except it's a rotate not a shift
15:17:53 <ais523> AnMaster: are you rotating in the wrong direction?
15:18:00 <ais523> it should be ...0000000011
15:18:45 <oklopol> lambda x:[a|b for a,b in zip(x,x[1:]+x[:1])]
15:19:13 <ais523> oklopol: using addition for or?
15:19:25 <oklopol> >>> (lambda x:[a|b for a,b in zip(x,x[1:]+x[:1])])([1])
15:19:57 <ais523> I thought [a|b was the start of a list comprehension
15:19:58 <oklopol> i guess it may have looked like a haskell list comprehension
15:20:18 <ais523> what's the result of the zip, there
15:22:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I worked it out by hand and I guess I'm rotating wrong yes
15:23:45 <AnMaster> changing endbit to the other end didn't work hm
15:24:24 <oklopol> >>> [((a,b),"==>",zip(a,b)) for a,b in [(lambda r:([r() for i in xrange(10)],[r() for i in xrange(10)]))(lambda:int(__import__("random").random()*50))]]
15:24:24 <oklopol> [(([5, 17, 0, 21, 30, 46, 11, 34, 21, 13], [35, 37, 12, 26, 28, 45, 5, 21, 0, 38]), '==>', [(5, 35), (17, 37), (0, 12), (21, 26), (30, 28), (46, 45), (11, 5), (34, 21), (21, 0), (13, 38)])]
15:24:32 <AnMaster> ais523, the *least significant bit* should be used to or the most significant right?
15:24:56 <ais523> and the result should be in the most significant
15:25:13 <ais523> the least significant should also be used to or the second-least-significant with the result in the least significant
15:25:22 <ais523> so yes, you were right
15:25:22 <oklopol> ais523: i'm sure that answered your question in a confusing way
15:25:37 <ais523> oklopol: I know what zip does
15:25:44 <ais523> it was the [1:] [:1] I was wondering about more
15:25:52 <ais523> about whether it was working
15:25:57 <ais523> AnMaster: sorry for giving you wrong advice
15:26:01 <ais523> maybe you were right all along
15:26:05 <ais523> I'll run it through ick
15:26:15 <oklopol> l[:i] means the list up to i, exclusive, l[i:] means from i up, inclusive
15:26:45 <ais523> yes, 1000....00001 for #V1
15:27:09 <ais523> now I remember why unary or is such a pain to use
15:27:14 <ais523> let me check my #1234 too
15:27:25 <ais523> what's 16#1234 in decimal, again?
15:28:03 <ais523> the answer's 6974 in decimal
15:28:11 <AnMaster> anyway if my or work then it should be trivial for xor and and
15:28:15 <ais523> (sorry, I cheated and used wimpmode to speed things up a bit)
15:28:34 <ais523> ok, so it is right all along
15:28:41 <ais523> you need two wrappers by the way, for 16-bit and 32-bit or
15:28:53 <ais523> unless you look at the length of the bit field to work out which to use, I suppose
15:29:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well the loop variant works for any given size of binary
15:29:14 <tusho> http://tusho.net/blog/ <- yay pagination works!
15:29:24 <AnMaster> ais523, I need *two wrappers* is what you mean
15:29:28 <ais523> <Google> "Did you mean tsusho MARY?"
15:29:42 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's what I said
15:30:10 <tusho> <Google> "Did you mean tsusho MARY?" <- what
15:30:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I could make a bignum one, just need to find out how large binary is needed
15:30:22 <ais523> tusho: I was trying to find the documentation for MKRY
15:30:27 <ais523> Google didn't know where it was thuogh
15:31:39 <tusho> ais523: tip - if you want something I made, tusho.net slash name-of-thing should work well in future :P
15:31:58 <tusho> heh, my blog is the first result for tusho blogs but not tushob log
15:32:19 <ais523> probably Google doesn't know about MKRY because you didn't link it anywhere
15:32:33 <ais523> except there should be a link from ircbrowse, but maybe it's nofollowed
15:32:53 <tusho> ircbrowse won't link it
15:32:55 <tusho> it'll just have the URL
15:33:07 <tusho> anyway, I'll link to it from my blog
15:33:11 <ais523> ircbrowse links URLs IIRC
15:33:17 <tusho> ais523: do you like the pagination, by the way?
15:33:32 <tusho> if there's more than 20 pages (more than 50 posts) it'll be like this:
15:33:45 <tusho> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 457 458 459 460 ->
15:35:04 <tusho> ais523: http://tusho.net/blog/mkry
15:35:08 <tusho> google should pick it up sometime or other
15:35:31 <ais523> tusho: I so hope you get a comment on that written by some non-#esotericer
15:35:44 <tusho> ais523: i probably will, but it'll be "lolwut"
15:36:15 * tusho changes the footer a bit to link to tusho.net
15:37:16 <AnMaster> ais523, my last version is http://rafb.net/p/q0Ns9N24.html
15:38:14 <oklopol> the prediction was correct, i didn't get it.
15:38:14 <ais523> AnMaster: you say "32-bit" in your spec for the unaries but mention no bitcount anywhere for them
15:38:36 <oklopol> like, pushes the ascii value of '.' a few times?
15:38:55 <oklopol> well just once according to the stack thingie
15:39:07 <oklopol> hmm, actually there's an ellipsis
15:39:15 <AnMaster> ais523, the code was common so I abstracted it out :P
15:39:26 * oklopol waits for the truth to appear
15:39:34 <tusho> oklopol: its obvious,ehehehehe...
15:39:44 <ais523> AnMaster: I'd suggest removing the 32-bit restriction from the docs, if you've removed it from the code
15:40:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't it was just abstracted out into the code at line 47
15:40:09 <tusho> oklopol: mikeriley says 'ehehehehehhhhehehehehe' a lot
15:40:11 <tusho> and does things like this
15:40:19 <tusho> ehehehehehehhe,,,,i don't know........
15:40:25 <tusho> his fingerprints are never well specced
15:40:29 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, spotted it now
15:40:31 <tusho> they're always as obscure and hard to understand as MKRY is
15:40:44 <tusho> each one pushes 3-15 copies of what they say
15:40:48 <tusho> C pushes 3-15 ','s to the stack
15:40:52 <tusho> D pushes 3-15 '.'s to the stack
15:40:56 <oklopol> tusho: i didn't realize it was a joke of some sort :)
15:40:58 <AnMaster> ais523, arguably the internal functions should be documented too ;P
15:41:00 <tusho> and E pushes 3-15 e/h (randomly chosen each time) to the stack
15:41:10 <tusho> it lets you efficiently and easily construct mike riley sentences
15:42:20 <AnMaster> ais523, btw would you say that GCC's error messages for syntax errors often are a bit cryptic and don't point out where the error really is?
15:42:30 <ais523> sometimes, sometimes they're useful though
15:42:34 <tusho> ais523: why did you want the spec? do you want to implement an intercal version?
15:42:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I had: "./intercal.erl:41: syntax error before: '('"
15:42:52 <ais523> I just wanted to remind myself of what it was
15:42:58 <AnMaster> now I think that is a bit less specific
15:43:09 <tusho> ais523: ah was it mentioned?
15:43:14 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCAL's error messages are really non-sepcific
15:43:17 <ais523> tusho: no, I just remembered it
15:43:31 <ais523> the line number they give is normally the line after the error, but not always
15:43:47 <tusho> oh dear... i've sacrificed a bit of lynx usability
15:43:54 <tusho> the paginator is all scrunched together with no spaces
15:43:58 <AnMaster> ais523, well in erlang's case the errors are mostly not ordered after line numbers
15:44:05 <tusho> I guess I'll just have to put the spaces back in but wrap them with <span class="space">
15:44:08 <tusho> so I can display:none them
15:44:14 <AnMaster> so a lot of the time it is the third error or so pointing out where the issue really was
15:44:36 <tusho> this'll be ugly, though...
15:44:36 <AnMaster> ais523, since the first few are generally along the lines of "function used not defined"
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15:46:22 <tusho> <p id="footer"><a href="/">tusho.net</a><span class="space"> </span><span class="pagination"><span class="space"> </span><span class="current-page">1</span><span class="space"> </span><a href="http://tusho.net/blog/page/2">2</a><span class="space"> </span><a class="next-page" href="http://tusho.net/blog/page/2" title="→">→</a></span></p>
15:46:27 <tusho> that is sure darn ugly :D
15:46:38 <tusho> but hey, it works nicely in lynx now
15:46:44 <tusho> and isn't exactly unsemantic
15:46:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I've seen worse, though; one system I used to program in simply told you if there was an error or not
15:46:48 <tusho> they are, after all, spaces.
15:47:01 <ais523> when there was I used to find its location using binary search and comments
15:48:10 <ais523> AnMaster: scripting language for a game
15:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | huh?.
15:48:19 <ais523> also, good timing optbot
15:50:09 <tusho> ITRALCEN would give detailed, precise and helpful error messages
15:50:17 <tusho> more than just about any other compiler out there
15:50:28 <tusho> that's about as INTERCALLY as the incredibly obscure, unhelpful ones of most INTERCAL compilers, I think
15:50:51 <AnMaster> In http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#ICAL wtf is the "n" argument to R?
15:51:21 <ais523> number of entries deep to resume
15:51:31 <ais523> in INTERCAL you can return from a procedure other than the one you're currently in
15:51:49 <ais523> R is equivalent to 1-F1R, if it helps
15:51:52 <AnMaster> <tusho> more than just about any other compiler out there <-- have you seen clang or icc? They show the code in the errors/warnings and underline the relevant part of the line
15:52:01 <AnMaster> don't know how you would beat that
15:52:16 <tusho> python uses an up arrow on the right spot
15:52:19 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I know several other languages do that
15:52:21 <ais523> or Perl, which uses a ^ underneath?
15:52:22 <tusho> but that's a pretty basic diagnostic...
15:52:25 <tusho> and yeah, i would beat that
15:52:28 <tusho> ais523: that's what i said
15:52:44 <ais523> tusho: except you said Python and I said Perl...
15:52:47 <AnMaster> icc sometimes even make suggestions for how to fix iirc
15:52:55 <tusho> AnMaster: so does ghc, but its suggestions are useless
15:53:02 <tusho> mine would use its semantic analysis tools to suggest how to fix
15:53:04 <tusho> and not just based on the error
15:53:08 <tusho> but based on the code and the error
15:53:22 <AnMaster> that would actually be pretty interesting
15:53:27 <tusho> actually, because of the tons of help it gives you it'd probably be more useful to run it as a g ui
15:53:32 <tusho> so that you could expand/contract the warnings & errors
15:53:33 <ais523> tusho: it shouldn't need the code at all, it should be able to make the program work correctly from a copy of the sepc
15:53:35 <tusho> to avoid a flood of info
15:53:43 <tusho> ais523: hahahah, well no not quite :P
15:54:21 <AnMaster> aren't there languages like that, you tell it what you want to do, and it figures it out
15:54:37 <AnMaster> or at least have been ideas of that
15:54:43 <ais523> AnMaster: arguably Prolog is like that to start with
15:54:51 <ais523> but really you have to know the internals to use it properly, !
15:54:53 <tusho> AnMaster: declarative ones
15:55:16 <tusho> ITRALCEN is pretty much the other side of intercallyness as opposed to the compilers of today
15:55:39 <ais523> tusho: as opposed to typical INTERCAL compilers or typical programming language compilers?
15:55:50 <tusho> it's precise and helpful and featureful and everything, trying to surpass even conventional languages, and yet the language itself is still very INTERCALLy so it's helping you with tons of detail... to code an awful, awful wreck
15:55:51 <AnMaster> tusho, are you going to implement it?
15:55:57 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, sometime
15:56:04 <tusho> i haven't got all the details sorted out in my head
15:56:07 <ais523> tusho: I have plans for something like that too
15:56:16 <tusho> ais523: yes, but that's a different language
15:56:21 <tusho> which you've told me about
15:56:27 <tusho> i mean, mine isn't "easy intercal"
15:56:29 <tusho> it's kind of sinister
15:56:33 <tusho> it's polite, helpful, and all that
15:56:35 <tusho> and yet it's driving you insane
15:56:44 <tusho> because it's calmly and politely helping you to code *in INTERCAL*
15:56:50 <ais523> anyway I've had a huge revolutionary idea to revolutionise INTERCAL expressions the same way its flow control is actually really nice
15:57:18 <ais523> I was also thinking about what a dedicated INTERCAL IDE would be like
15:57:31 <ais523> I decided it would leave certain features locked until you got enough experience points to be able to use them
15:57:34 <AnMaster> tusho, you need some animated icon that pops up bubbles like: "You seem to be writing a hello world program, do you want help?"
15:57:38 <tusho> AnMaster: exactly!
15:57:41 <AnMaster> you could call it... hmm.... Clippy!
15:57:49 <tusho> if ITRALCEN included an IDE it would syntax highlight EVERYTHING
15:57:59 <tusho> while you type and move your mouse tooltips would go into excruciating detail
15:58:01 <ais523> actually mine was going to too
15:58:07 <tusho> tons of panels to the side letting you analyze and refactor your code
15:58:13 <ais523> except syntax highlight not based on syntax
15:58:13 <tusho> full integration with the compiler! project support!
15:58:24 <tusho> and it'd KILL YOU because it would be so over the top and you WOULD BE WRITING INTERCAL
15:58:30 <ais523> the highlight instead showed how often you'd used that particular construct
15:58:40 <ais523> so for instance if you use a variable a lot its name becomes bright green
15:58:42 <tusho> it'd probably be a more horrifying experience than the bare bones tools for INTERCAL of today
15:58:48 <ais523> whereas it's a dull red if it's the only time you've ever read it
15:59:07 <tusho> ais523: like heat vision for INTERCAL!
15:59:24 <ais523> the trick is that that would actually catch lots of typos
15:59:33 <ais523> heh, you could make it just work on character neighbours
15:59:40 <ais523> and then it would be language agnostic
15:59:56 <ais523> sort of like a Markov chain, but instead of generating nonsense it checks to see how much Markov-sense your code makes
16:00:08 <ais523> if the whole thing's flourescent green you've cut-and-pasted too much
16:00:20 <ais523> actually, that tool would have saved me several hours on a RL project once
16:00:22 <AnMaster> ais523, kate can be set to pop up auto completion based on existing words in the document
16:00:31 <tusho> AnMaster: so can every editor ever
16:00:31 <ais523> where I accidentally duplicated part of a table of constants
16:00:44 <tusho> it does it in one line of vimrc
16:00:49 <tusho> you don't even have to enable it
16:00:50 <tusho> it's there by default
16:00:56 <ais523> someone should make a VID which is like vi, but worse
16:01:01 <oklopol> ais523: that's a genius idea
16:01:30 <tusho> ais523: not exactly hard
16:01:35 <AnMaster> tusho, actually it may be enabled by default in kate
16:01:36 <tusho> and yes i mean bill joy vi
16:03:00 <tusho> ugh, my bad posture is starting to be uncomfortable
16:03:04 <tusho> after all these years...
16:03:47 <ais523> tusho: according to the CotC website you're still supine
16:04:33 <tusho> i think i may need a new chair
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16:17:33 <oklopol> there may be porn of it, but google definitely does not index it.
16:18:24 <oklopol> human+computer, to be exact
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16:55:33 <tusho> ais523: you mentioned that dnl was crazy
16:55:55 <ais523> discards everything up to the next newline, including the newline
16:56:37 <ais523> so it's a cross between comment and line continuation
16:56:42 <ais523> also you can generate them at runtime
16:56:47 <ais523> which can lead to chaos on occasion
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17:20:35 -!- ais523 has joined.
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17:28:14 <ais523> CO2Games: no you didn't
17:53:04 <tusho> CoE: CO2Games did not invent doors.
17:57:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:02:29 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I wonder about dnl, # comments work in configure.ac too
18:02:46 <ais523> AnMaster: # is even weirder in m4
18:02:54 <ais523> it echos everything from the # to the end of the line into the output
18:02:58 <ais523> without interpreting any of it
18:03:04 <ais523> so # comment dnl comment 2
18:03:11 <ais523> actually copies # comment dnl comment 2 into the output
18:03:16 <tusho> http://tusho.net/ is now an openID
18:03:38 <ais523> even people who like m4 more or less outright admit it's an esolang
18:03:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well that will result in a bash comment
18:04:59 <ais523> autoconf used to be all written in sh
18:05:28 <ais523> they used m4 to automate the process of generating configure scripts
18:05:37 <ais523> as it's apparently simple to start with
18:05:49 <ais523> just a case of writing substitutions for each command
18:06:05 <ais523> there's a lot of depth to it though, in that over time you discover increasingly weird ways to abuse its evaluation engine
18:06:23 <ais523> and power m4 users sort of actively encourage that sort of thing
18:06:25 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I wrote a few autoconf macros myself
18:06:41 <ais523> it would be to someone with your personality, I imagine
18:07:06 <AnMaster> what is that supposed to mean?
18:07:14 <tusho> AnMaster: you only like boring, sane things
18:07:25 <ais523> AnMaster: different people have different styles
18:07:42 <ais523> you tend towards things which are relatively sane and work more or less the same way each time
18:07:53 <ais523> and as a result your programs tend to be saner than most of the people's here
18:08:03 <ais523> presumably tusho thinks this is a bad thing
18:08:14 <ais523> also, befunge is sane for an esolang
18:08:21 <tusho> yeah befunge is pretty pedestrian
18:09:07 <AnMaster> ais523, and I would like Feather if you ever got it done ;P
18:09:24 <ais523> I have headaches just thinking about it
18:09:28 <ais523> probably that's why I never get it done
18:09:32 <tusho> yeah AnMaster thinks he likes feather
18:09:37 <ais523> it's brilliantly elegant despite the headaches, though
18:09:43 <tusho> but i suspect he'd ravage every single part of it if it was actaully made
18:10:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I like thinking about the weird parts of core funge
18:10:39 <ais523> AnMaster: in m4 those sorts of interactions are what you do to actually run programs, normally
18:11:21 <ais523> although I don't think it's abuse so much in this case
18:11:41 <ais523> also there are tricks involving dynamically changing the syntax of the language to do stuff, but they tend to be looked down upon
18:11:57 <AnMaster> ais523, my autoconf macros didn't really use edge cases
18:12:11 <tusho> Hooray, pavatar works too!
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18:12:21 <AnMaster> and well Feather would change the language
18:12:35 <ais523> Feather would change everything
18:12:41 <tusho> http://www.pavatar.com/check?hp=http%3A%2F%2Ftusho.net%2F <-- it wurkz
18:12:45 <ais523> from its own point of view it can change the universe
18:12:47 * tusho waits for someone to ask what that is, they always do
18:12:52 <ais523> although I suspect the universe could have other ideas
18:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523, could you even make any meaningful programs in Feather without changing the language?
18:14:01 <ais523> generally speaking you don't change the language as such but add features to it
18:14:01 <AnMaster> but that wouldn't be fun of course
18:14:10 <tusho> ais523: you should make all the core primitives modify the actual language, by changing the expression you're evaluating into its result
18:14:14 <tusho> then EVERYTHING would modify it
18:14:23 <ais523> and those features seamlessly interoperate with the other features that other libraries had added
18:14:42 <ais523> that way, for instance, you can load a debugger after the fact, and then step through the code up to the point you're at at the moment
18:14:48 <ais523> sort of like JIT debugging but even crazier
18:14:53 <AnMaster> ais523, well how can you add features that require external communication? that is not included in "turing complete". For example file io, calling external code. or whatever
18:15:19 <AnMaster> but I may be wrong since you failed to explain how feather actually works ;P
18:15:26 <ais523> I've been thinking a lot about that
18:15:34 <AnMaster> ais523, hello world program in feather please?
18:15:47 <ais523> AnMaster: I can't write anything in Feather yet, not even a NOP, really
18:16:13 <ais523> but output would ideally have to be rewound as you went back and redone as you went forwards
18:16:20 <AnMaster> ais523, what language do you plan to implement feather in? or the boot strap feather in
18:16:33 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure, I was discussing this with tusho a while back
18:16:42 <tusho> ais523: perhaps squeak
18:16:44 <tusho> just for the irony
18:16:47 <ais523> probably eventually C but I want to start with something functional
18:17:21 <ais523> functional should be easier
18:17:31 <ais523> Unlambda has all the right features, actually, but is a pain to program in]
18:17:41 <AnMaster> ais523, if I know the language (and/or plan to learn it, like scheme (which I plan to learn when I get time)) I could probably help with parts that need to be done
18:18:06 * tusho notes down: Fork Feather at nearest oppertunity
18:18:28 <ais523> one of the main problems with Feather is I feel it needs an interp before it can be properly specced
18:18:38 <ais523> to see what's impossible and what's merely implausible
18:18:41 <ais523> implausible I can do, sometimes
18:19:22 <AnMaster> ais523, what are the features you need of unlambda?
18:19:34 <ais523> very first-class functions, call/cc
18:19:54 <AnMaster> ais523, and that kind of prevents a lot of the IO stuff
18:19:56 <ais523> some sane and preferably extensible way to interface with the user would be nice, too
18:20:00 <AnMaster> ais523, scheme or some other lisp maybe then?
18:20:12 <ais523> also ideally call/cc should rewind output
18:20:23 <ais523> but yes, Scheme is near the top of my list of potential languages for this atm
18:21:07 <AnMaster> ais523, rewind output could be hard, what if the output is sent to something like a printer?
18:21:34 <ais523> my intended semantics are to just do nothing if output is rewound and then the same output is reoutput
18:21:46 <ais523> but if the output is rewound and different output comes out, just print the new output
18:22:03 <ais523> that'll be closest to what the user expects, I think
18:23:23 <oerjan> feather should clearly be written in Coq or Agda
18:23:39 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw didn't you ask some time ago about languages that can seralize functions? And that unlambda was one of them
18:23:59 <ais523> Underlambda is defined to be able to serialise functions
18:24:16 <ais523> there's no technical reason why not but it might be inefficient
18:24:21 <AnMaster> ais523, erlang can seralise functions
18:24:35 <ais523> certainly if you're using the Lisp method of storing in a list and using eval to call, it's trivial
18:24:36 <oerjan> maybe it could compile to Parrot
18:24:39 <AnMaster> in fact it is used internally in between distributed erlang nodes
18:24:41 <ais523> however lambdas tend to be better
18:24:52 <ais523> oerjan: is that a genuine language yet?
18:24:59 <AnMaster> <<131,112,0,0,3,129,1,213,76,172,89...>>
18:25:21 <ais523> presumably the resulting serialisation doesn't mean anything to anyone but Erlang?
18:25:52 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed. Erlang of same major release even
18:26:11 <AnMaster> which happens every few years or so iirc
18:26:11 <ais523> that's enough for Underlambda, anyway
18:26:23 <ais523> presumably it can deserialise the result back into a function again
18:26:54 <ais523> (Underlambda's great in that you can merely serialise a continuation if you happen to want to save an image)
18:29:39 <oerjan> Lazy Bird perhaps? although it may not have continuations
18:30:00 <ais523> continuations are very very important to the way I plan to implement Feather
18:30:24 <ais523> in fact I was thinking about writing my own language in C, merely implemented to optimise continuations for the unusual use they'll see in a Feather program
18:32:29 <Slereah2> Lazy Bird doesn't have continuation.
18:32:55 <Slereah2> At least I can't think of a way to do it.
18:33:12 <Slereah2> Mainly because I still don't know what it is
18:33:21 <tusho> Slereah2: Does it have c?
18:33:31 <tusho> Then not unless you do CPS.
18:33:52 <ais523> Slereah2: it basically involves never ever returning from a function
18:33:57 <tusho> ais523: parrot is the perl6 VM.
18:34:07 <ais523> instead you give a function pointer as an argument saying where to transfer control after the function runs
18:34:11 <AnMaster> <ais523> presumably it can deserialise the result back into a function again
18:34:15 <ais523> then you get rid of the call stack
18:34:19 <AnMaster> assuming it is a fun() style fun
18:34:19 <ais523> because you don't need it
18:34:30 <AnMaster> if it is a MFA style fun it is just a reference
18:34:42 <AnMaster> MFA style fun = fun mymodule:myfunc/2
18:34:54 <AnMaster> which is more or less like a C function pointer
18:35:05 <tusho> ais523: by the way, do you have any idea how to make scp -r handle deletes too?
18:35:17 <ais523> no, not off the top of my head
18:35:22 <ais523> scp is likely the wrong tool to be using
18:35:30 <tusho> what should i use instead, then?
18:35:35 <ais523> you could delete the entire tree at the other end then scp
18:35:42 <ais523> that would come to the same thing
18:35:56 <ais523> why is that ouch, you're overwriting all the files over there anyway
18:36:05 <ais523> (that's /why/ it's the wrong tool to be using)
18:36:05 <tusho> does rsync do deletes?
18:36:19 <ais523> one of my friends uses svn for that purpose, strangely enough
18:36:48 <oerjan> somewhat of a subversion
18:37:31 <AnMaster> tusho, it does if you give it the right command line option
18:37:52 <AnMaster> then it removes files that doesn't exist on the target side
18:38:05 <AnMaster> err which doesn't exist on source side*
18:38:32 * tusho gets an evil idea - make his homepage FOAF instead of HTML and use an xml stylesheet to show it to browsers - like http://hublog.hubmed.org/foaf.xml
18:40:04 <tusho> http://www.foaf-project.org/
18:40:09 <tusho> person metadata & relationship thing
18:40:27 <tusho> http://hublog.hubmed.org/foaf.xml is a foaf file
18:41:12 <tusho> essentially, if I do that, tusho.net will be the most semantic homepage evar
18:41:32 <tusho> i have YADIS directing to my openid, a Pavatar header, ...
18:42:30 <tusho> no search on my site, though I might add it to my blahg
18:42:53 <ais523> what about microformats?
18:43:15 <tusho> ais523: unneeded, microformats are for HTML, all the info will be in the FOAF profile
18:43:25 <tusho> since tusho.net is just going to be my identity page
18:43:31 <tusho> no microformats on tusho.net
18:43:35 <tusho> no microformats on tusho.net/blog
18:43:38 <tusho> but i don't see any that i could use
18:46:03 <AnMaster> <tusho> ais523: unneeded, microformats are for HTML, all the info will be in the FOAF profile <tusho> no microformats on tusho.net/blog <-- that is because it is html there will be no microformats?
18:46:27 <tusho> AnMaster: "*tusho gets an evil idea - make his homepage FOAF instead of HTML and use an xml stylesheet to show it to browsers - like http://hublog.hubmed.org/foaf.xml"
18:46:30 <tusho> Ideas do not apply themself immediately.
18:58:49 <tusho> so: almost all done
18:59:04 <ais523> it's quite rare to get helpful channels nowadays for some reason
18:59:17 <ais523> although the ones I'm in tend to be helpful
18:59:22 <ais523> probably why I stick around in them
18:59:29 <ais523> even #esoteric is helpful sometimes
18:59:35 <tusho> also, RDF and FOAF are both good usecases of XML, and also very easy to use
18:59:39 <ais523> fungot can give some amazing advice
18:59:41 <tusho> which i think is excellent
18:59:46 <ais523> although it isn't here right
18:59:51 <ais523> I'll have to ask optbot instead.
18:59:52 <optbot> ais523: yes. this is church numeral stuff.
19:01:59 <tusho> optbot's secrets are revealed at last!
19:01:59 <optbot> tusho: Why isn't ` apply? :-P
19:03:13 * tusho tries to figure out how to use foaf:based_near
19:03:13 <ais523> obviously optbot isn't written in Unlambda, then
19:03:13 <optbot> ais523: the thing you told Deewiant
19:05:19 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I tend to ask programming questions in esoteric
19:05:28 <AnMaster> because no one asks: "why to you need that"
19:05:44 <ais523> but normally afterwards
19:05:52 <ais523> and out of curiosity rather than pointing you to a better way
19:06:04 <ais523> well, if there is a better way, we'll let you decide if you want to use it
19:06:05 <AnMaster> of course because the whole point is doing it in weird ways
19:06:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I still like the idea of bignum intercal but I don't think I would be able to implement it
19:06:35 <ais523> if I came here and said "I'm writing a machine-code program, but I want all the characters in it to be printable", nobody would bat an eyelid
19:06:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:07:07 <ais523> and yes I have done that
19:07:21 <ais523> it's the concept of a self uu-decoding application
19:07:32 <ais523> to distribute uudecode over Usenet to people who don't have it
19:07:40 <ais523> only a DOS version though, I don't think you can do that in ELF
19:07:49 <AnMaster> ais523, can't they access ftp?
19:08:06 <ais523> but again, why care if there are better ways?
19:09:09 <AnMaster> but the point is to try to figure out what almsort would be!
19:09:26 <AnMaster> (iirc that was how befunge was created, befunge being a typo)
19:10:33 <AnMaster> "The word "Befunge" started life as a typographical error for the word "before", typed by Curtis Coleman at 4AM on a BBS chat system."
19:10:40 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge#Etymology
19:10:43 <ais523> that always confused me
19:10:58 <ais523> but befunge and before are pretty different to type
19:11:14 <AnMaster> ais523, dvorak? (not sure if that matters=
19:11:20 <ais523> maybe it was a non-QWERTY keyboard?
19:11:24 <AnMaster> ais523, would you say = was an easy typo for ) and ?
19:11:44 <AnMaster> ais523, on a Swedish keyboard it is
19:11:54 <ais523> = is two keys away from ) and doesn't need shift on a UK layout
19:12:03 <ais523> so yes, I think it must be some non-UK/US layout
19:12:52 <AnMaster> see how that is easy to typo on a Swedish keyboard
19:13:25 <ais523> top row on a UK keyboard, with shift
19:13:45 <ais523> US keyboards are !@#$%^&*()_+ IIRC
19:13:54 <AnMaster> well if you include the first char before 1 then it is
19:13:58 <oerjan> dvorak doesn't look very plausible for before -> befunge either
19:14:05 <ais523> ¬ is shift-backquote for me
19:14:11 <ais523> and backquote's to the left of 1
19:14:29 <ais523> yes, it isn't even in ASCII (nor is £ for that matter but I can understand why that's on a UK keyboard)
19:14:43 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KB_Sweden.svg
19:15:00 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and back quote is ` you mean?
19:15:17 <ais523> comes in useful when typing Unlambda programs
19:15:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well don't do that on Swedish keyboard then
19:15:43 <AnMaster> pretty bad for programming really
19:15:58 <ais523> most programming languages are US/UK-keyboard-centric
19:16:04 <ais523> although APL needed a keyboard of its own IIRC
19:16:15 <fizzie> (The Finnish keyboard is identical to the Swedish one, just to add one more point of data.)
19:16:16 <tusho> ais523: what is the http header to tell a browser to display the file, not download it?
19:16:21 <tusho> e.g. for xml with a stylesheet
19:16:25 <AnMaster> ais523, erlang works pretty well, a few uses for altgr only
19:16:33 <fizzie> Although I've made my dead keys undead.
19:16:35 <ais523> although IIRC it's different in IE for no apparent reason
19:17:06 <tusho> Is it content-disposition?
19:17:18 <AnMaster> tusho, application/xml+xhtml iirc?
19:17:19 <ais523> although isn't that for MIME type?
19:17:27 <tusho> AnMaster: no, no, you misunderstand
19:17:40 <tusho> safari & firefox etc see "application/xrds+xml" and think "lolwut? best download"
19:17:45 <tusho> I want to keep that mime type - it is correct
19:17:48 <tusho> but tell the browser to display it
19:17:56 <fizzie> Content-disposition: is at least the one people use to do "forcedly download this file instead of displaying", so I guess it could work the other way around too.
19:18:00 <ais523> maybe content-disposition is the mime type browsers think it ought to be
19:18:04 <tusho> Content-Disposition: inline
19:18:08 <AnMaster> tusho, got some example site where it works?
19:18:22 <fizzie> Yes, and "Content-Disposition: attachment" for the "download it you stupef browser" one.
19:18:25 <AnMaster> now I wonder how to set that in lighttpd config
19:18:48 <ais523> incidentally, what happens if you put a META HTTP-Equiv in an HTML file saying it isn't actually HTML after all?
19:19:10 <tusho> Beh. Despite Content-Disposition: inline, my browser insists that downloading it is a good idea.
19:19:21 <AnMaster> ais523, logically it should cause an infinite loop
19:19:28 <tusho> It isn't being set
19:19:45 <AnMaster> ais523, since it will not read the HTTP-Equiv since it isn't html
19:19:53 <tusho> <html><meta http-equiv=content-type value=text/plain><p>hello world</p></html>
19:19:57 <AnMaster> then it will see that it is html from the server headers
19:19:57 <tusho> should display the source in text/plain
19:20:05 <tusho> if I know my http & html specs correctly
19:20:08 <AnMaster> then it will see that it really was
19:20:19 <ais523> tusho: you so have to try that now
19:20:22 <tusho> AnMaster: no, it's logical
19:20:27 <tusho> you determine content type by:
19:20:36 <tusho> 2. if header says html, check html head
19:20:41 <tusho> 3. if the head mentions something, it's actually that
19:20:50 <tusho> that's how you can use value=application/xhtml+xml
19:20:54 <AnMaster> tusho, on 3 *it should backtrack to 1*
19:20:55 <tusho> even though your server says text/html
19:20:56 <ais523> bet you it doesn't actually work in practice with text/plain
19:21:04 <tusho> AnMaster: then you couldn't use Content-Type _at all_
19:21:08 <ais523> no actual money, though
19:21:13 <ais523> because I'm not certain
19:21:23 <AnMaster> tusho, um I set my webserver to serve them as application/xhtml+xml... if the extension is .xhtml
19:21:23 <tusho> Header onsuccess set Content-Disposition inline
19:21:26 <tusho> surely that should work...
19:21:32 <tusho> AnMaster: not everyone controls their host
19:21:43 <oerjan> ais523: but is it at least genuine monopoly money?
19:21:49 <tusho> AnMaster: HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
19:22:06 <tusho> Of course I can. Will I unless needed? No,.
19:22:11 <tusho> Plus, it works for other headers.
19:22:25 <AnMaster> tusho, well of course, and you could actually use ruby or whatever instead
19:22:35 <tusho> Or I could use .htaccess, because this works:Header onsuccess set X-Pavatar http://tusho.net/avatar
19:22:41 <tusho> and therefore so should this:Header onsuccess set Content-Disposition inline
19:22:44 <fizzie> At least Firefox still renders the page "<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" value="text/plain"></head><body><p>foo</p></head></html>
19:22:46 <tusho> so I should fix the problem, whatever it is.
19:22:55 <tusho> fizzie: Report a bug :P
19:23:03 <ais523> no, I think fizzie's results may be right
19:23:12 <ais523> there are some things which can't be set in an http-equiv
19:23:27 <ais523> content-type with arbitrary values seems to be a good candidate for that treatment
19:23:44 <fizzie> But you can do http-equiv=content-type, value=text/html; charset=foo.
19:23:51 <tusho> Incidentally, http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ARPServlet.tmp/servlet_34128.png is pretty.
19:24:44 <ais523> "I was born at an early age"?
19:25:08 <tusho> I forgot to sync the .htaccess, hah
19:25:12 <fizzie> The HTML spec is pretty vague about metadata. For HTML 4.01, "User agents are not required to support meta data mechanisms. For those that choose to support meta data, this specification does not define how meta data should be interpreted."
19:25:29 <oerjan> tusho: [citation needed]
19:26:01 <tusho> Content-Disposition: inline
19:26:02 <tusho> and it still downloads
19:26:15 <ais523> oerjan: you should at least link it
19:26:25 <ais523> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Fact citation needed]
19:26:34 <AnMaster> tusho, "Warning: implode() [function.implode]: Bad arguments. in /home/tusho/www/tusho.net/id/MyID.php on line 1569"
19:26:53 <tusho> AnMaster: What did you do?
19:26:56 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and http://tusho.net/id/ gives a directory index
19:27:09 <tusho> What went wrong now...
19:27:14 <AnMaster> tusho, http://tusho.net/id/ gives a directory index, it was listed in that image. so I clicked in MyID.php
19:27:19 <AnMaster> tusho, then I got that message
19:27:20 <tusho> yes okay, shut up, I'm fixing it
19:27:31 <ais523> hmm... it seems now they have a page [[w:Wikipedia:Citation needed]] to link people to
19:27:37 <ais523> *hmm... it seems now they have a page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Wikipedia:Citation_needed to link people to
19:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, why doing it through search?
19:28:07 <ais523> AnMaster: my client does that automatically
19:28:08 <AnMaster> ais523, also I seen that before
19:28:25 <AnMaster> I mean wikipedia using it on that page
19:28:57 <AnMaster> http://tusho.net/id/ -> "Internal Server Error"
19:29:11 <tusho> AnMaster: Hi. Which part of "Shut up, I'm fixing it" did you not understand? Love, tusho.
19:29:28 <ais523> Love? Between you and AnMaster?
19:29:35 <tusho> ais523: Sarcasm, more like.
19:29:46 <AnMaster> <tusho> yes okay, shut up, I'm fixing it
19:29:51 <AnMaster> tusho, and it was a different problem :P
19:30:03 <tusho> Just a problem in the fix.
19:30:28 <AnMaster> "phpMyID is NOT compatible with Suhosin or other hardened PHP systems (Debian users take note)." <-- wtf, I wouldn't run php without Suhosin on a server
19:30:58 <AnMaster> ais523, http://www.hardened-php.net/suhosin/
19:31:41 <tusho> AnMaster: it works fine with suhoshin.
19:31:51 <tusho> however, if you read, it tells you why
19:31:56 <tusho> suhoshin disables a core feature that is needed to do openid
19:31:58 <ais523> heh, their site has a dotted underscore on every instance of "PHP" which pops up a tooltip saying "Hypertext Preprocessor"
19:33:13 <ais523> it wasn't really the repetition that got me so much, but the fact that the tooltip is wrong
19:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what does PHP stand for then?
19:34:01 <ais523> I think it may be "PHP Hypertext Preprocessor" nowadays, not sure though
19:34:37 <ais523> "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor" according to Wikipedia
19:35:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: Can't really find much from the XHTML spec either -- I mean, the legal syntax is there, but it doesn't seem to say much about the semantics of meta.
19:36:30 <fizzie> In contrast, HTML 5 draft does specify that if there is a http-equiv="content-type" thing, it must consist (case-insensitively) of the literal string "text/html;", then optional spaces and "charset=encoding"; it can't be used to change the type to something non-HTML.
19:36:52 <ais523> well obviously, if it isn't HTML it doesn't conform to the HTML 5 spec
19:37:27 <ais523> think of it this way: would it make sense to specify in the spec for INTERCAL, say, "If an INTERCAL program contains the string BLUE HAIR NOW, it is actually not an INTERCAL program"?
19:38:01 <ais523> but the spec would then be contradicting itself
19:38:06 <fizzie> I think it's a nice almost-paradoxy thing that should optimally cause something more interesting than just working the way common sense says it does.
19:39:04 <oerjan> Which is perfectly appropriate for an INTERCAL spec, within limits.
19:39:35 <ais523> hmm... retrograde comments would be really useful
19:39:45 <ais523> which allow you to comment backwards to the start of the program
19:39:52 <ais523> so you can put anything you like before them
19:39:57 <ais523> the last one in a program is the only one that counts
19:40:05 <ais523> because the others are commented out
19:41:07 <AnMaster> ais523, err, parsing would be painful :/
19:41:21 <ais523> scan backwards for the first comment delimiter you find
19:41:25 <ais523> then discard everything before that
19:41:28 <ais523> as a preprocessing phase
19:43:07 <oerjan> that leaves only the question of keyword. i suggest EXTERMINATE
19:46:57 <AnMaster> if this channel what DnD what alignments would you say the different people here have?
19:47:38 <fizzie> Usually by default it will replace the first occurrence only since you didn't add the 'g' modifier.
19:47:46 <ais523> it's the first appearance by default, you have to do something like s/^(.*)what/$1was/ to get the second
19:47:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed, but I wanted to be extra clear
19:48:43 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: <msg id="lua"><![CDATA[function x() print ('abc') end]]></msg>
19:48:43 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: 'if' is a function
19:49:05 <optbot> ais523: except copy-on-write, but that just delays the blit
19:49:19 <ais523> hmm... that was probably me who said that
19:49:23 <ais523> when discussing how fork() works
19:49:27 <oerjan> optbot: your wisdom is beyond compare
19:49:28 <optbot> oerjan: you could not infect OpenBSD boxes with it, though
19:49:44 <ais523> heh, that combination makes sense
19:49:49 <oerjan> optbot: you only run on Linux then?
19:49:50 <optbot> oerjan: also the world's best imperative language.
19:49:59 -!- fungot has joined.
19:50:11 <ais523> OpenBSD is secure against everything, even optbot's wisdom
19:50:21 <ais523> fungot: anything to add to this?
19:50:22 <fungot> ais523: its only as difficult as it might be that i only just learned it
19:50:55 <oerjan> fungot is definitely chaotic here
19:50:57 <fungot> oerjan: fnord fizzie damned if i know
19:51:18 <ais523> fungot: but are you good or evil?
19:51:19 <fungot> ais523: fnord these fnord i learned the term. people usually don't stop.
19:51:47 <fungot> fizzie: every language an fsa recognizes can easily be poked to change their habits, even in fnord stores.
19:52:02 <fizzie> I don't think we have many fnord stores around here. :/
19:52:18 <oerjan> it uses the evil word (albeit defectively), the answer should be obvious.
19:52:29 <ais523> fizzie: you should so fill up fungot with logs from #nethack
19:52:30 <fungot> ais523: of course, but i
19:52:47 <AnMaster> tusho: "Warning: implode() [function.implode]: Bad arguments. in /home/tusho/www/tusho.net/id/MyID.php on line 1569" still
19:52:59 <fizzie> ais523: Hmm, maybe I should also be there too if it's that good.
19:52:59 <tusho> AnMaster: don't load that page then, it's an internal page, so shut up
19:53:00 <fungot> KingOfKarlsruhe: chicken has something like that
19:53:02 <tusho> it's not linked anywhere
19:53:14 <tusho> http://tusho.net/id/ is my OpenID.
19:53:25 <tusho> MyID.php is phpMyID, an OpenID implementation.
19:53:33 <tusho> you're accessing it directly so it's not getting the config
19:53:48 <ais523> tusho: what username and password should I put in there?
19:54:00 <tusho> if you don't know it, well, why are you trying to log in as me?
19:54:09 <ais523> so it's a login just for you
19:54:26 <tusho> I put tusho.net in an OpenID box, it gets, from the headers, a link to http://tusho.net/yadis
19:54:29 <fungot> oerjan: let's go start a flamewar to cure your boredom),
19:54:32 <tusho> which contains a link to http://tusho.net/id/
19:54:44 <tusho> so it uses that as my openid server
19:54:49 <tusho> and that's how i can login as tusho.net
19:55:29 <ais523> fungot: YOU ARE A RUBBISH BOT! HAH! EAT FLAMES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,eheheheh...
19:55:30 <fungot> ais523: has scheme only 26 levels of recursion
19:55:49 <fungot> ais523: feel free to type the slash.
19:55:59 <fungot> ais523: why don't you try it out with some language settings might convert ( quote red)
19:56:46 <tusho> ^ an xml file rendered via xsl generating html
19:56:58 <oerjan> fungot: a box has in the vicinity of London subway stations like a banana
19:56:58 <fungot> oerjan: no ignorance at all, really
19:57:00 <tusho> hoorah for advanced semantic web technology
19:58:09 <oerjan> tusho: is your web page sentient yet?
19:58:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw I think we all are more or less chaotic in here, or we wouldn't like esolangs ;P
19:58:20 <tusho> oerjan: no, but approaching it
20:01:27 <ais523> we're all chaotic by AnMaster's standards, but AnMaster is positively lawful compared to most of us
20:01:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I say you are lawful in certain ways
20:01:45 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
20:01:57 <ais523> I'm pretty lawful in some ways and chaotic in others
20:03:23 <tusho> http://tusho.net/ now looks pretty cool, too!
20:03:39 <tusho> now just to add my IM accounts and i'm done
20:03:54 <AnMaster> tusho, does the openid have to be an url?
20:04:08 -!- ais523_ has joined.
20:04:36 <AnMaster> http://openid.net/get/ says "URI" under "Roll Your Own"
20:05:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:05:13 <tusho> http:// uris are uris
20:05:18 <tusho> it just has other constraints too
20:05:22 <tusho> besides, it couldn't validate urn: openids
20:05:24 <tusho> the point is it has to communicate
20:05:28 <tusho> so that it can validate that you are you
20:05:39 <tusho> (specifically, that you own the openid you entered)
20:12:08 <AnMaster> tusho, what happens if you ever change domain?
20:12:16 <AnMaster> will that block the accounts you have?
20:12:23 <AnMaster> I prefer normal username and password then
20:12:35 <tusho> Everything expires.
20:12:40 <tusho> Username and password are no more durable.
20:12:47 <tusho> Your OpenID doesn't have to be in the same place.
20:12:59 <tusho> It can change as long as the URI containing the pointer to it stays the same.
20:13:01 <ais523_> well, I set my PGP key to a two-year expiry
20:13:08 <ais523_> because I don't expect to control my email address beyond then
20:13:23 <tusho> You could switch from a livejournal ID, say, to myopenid.com, to a self-hosted one
20:13:25 <tusho> and keep the same URI
20:13:31 <AnMaster> and then I will add a new id and revoke the old id, on the same key
20:13:33 <tusho> as long as that URI stays up
20:13:35 <tusho> as long as you change the location it points to as a openid
20:13:39 <tusho> AnMaster: most services let you do that
20:13:44 <tusho> you login with an openid and create an account
20:13:50 <tusho> later, you can associate a different openid with that
20:13:54 <tusho> and then login with that instead
20:14:05 <tusho> Accounts on each servers, but only one login.
20:14:18 <tusho> Admittedly, it'd be a hassle to change them all, but hopefully that URI doesn't change often enough for that to be a problem...
20:14:25 <AnMaster> tusho, what about fallback login with user/pass
20:14:39 <tusho> Although yes, most services allow that too.
20:14:50 <AnMaster> tusho, because I think I will control my user/pass way better than a openid
20:15:03 <tusho> Why? It's all your obligation.
20:15:10 <tusho> A domain gets sold if you let it expire yourself.
20:15:21 <AnMaster> tusho, I may not have the money
20:15:32 <tusho> AnMaster: Fine, so switch your openid on things just before the domain expires.
20:15:45 <AnMaster> tusho, no I just prefer normal user/pass
20:15:54 <tusho> Ahh. "It's better because it's better."
20:16:23 <tusho> Not the ones you're mentioning, though.
20:16:36 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
20:16:38 <AnMaster> tusho, it is *one* of the flaws
20:16:47 <AnMaster> tusho, involving a third party is another
20:16:58 <tusho> Third parties are not involved.
20:17:08 <tusho> Only if you explicitly do so by using an openid host.
20:17:22 <oerjan> Notice: Undefined variable: commenter_portrait_url in user/themes/tusho-blogs-2/post.php line 52
20:17:29 <AnMaster> tusho, yes but the majority of the users don't have their own servers or their own domains
20:17:40 <tusho> AnMaster: So then they have to use a third-party, just like they would have to for any service.
20:18:09 <AnMaster> tusho, not if the site they want to login on uses user/pass
20:18:18 <tusho> Yes - the third party is the site.
20:18:26 <AnMaster> tusho, no that is the second party
20:18:33 <tusho> AnMaster: a year ago reddit's database got hacked.
20:18:38 <tusho> Turns out they stored passwords in plaintext.
20:18:42 <tusho> So everybody's password was stolen.
20:18:49 <tusho> They did it so they could offer a 'forgotten your password' feature.
20:18:49 <AnMaster> tusho, well that would affect *one* site
20:18:56 <tusho> Sometimes, third parties are more trustable than second parties.
20:19:15 <AnMaster> tusho, and forgotten your password should reset pass to a random string
20:19:19 <tusho> I know i'd trust an established openid host by the company that created openid and is endorsed by tons of people & organizations
20:19:27 <tusho> over some random site I want to use.
20:19:47 <AnMaster> tusho, a company can go bankrupt
20:19:57 <AnMaster> or have server issues and be down when you need to login
20:19:59 <tusho> Everything can fail.
20:20:05 <tusho> It's a question of what fails the least.
20:20:12 <AnMaster> while user/pass just depends on the site you want to login on
20:20:21 <AnMaster> it won't block logging in on other sites
20:21:17 <tusho> I am too busy to continue this, as always I'll point you to #openid for further discussion.
20:21:30 <AnMaster> tusho, a hacked password affects *one* site
20:21:38 <AnMaster> always use different passwords for different sites
20:21:57 <ais523> well there was that big controversy in the US recently where someone 'hacked' Sarah Palin's email, by guessing the answer to her password reset question IIRC
20:22:00 <tusho> (I just looove it when AnMaster does something in direct ignorance of my last message one message after)
20:22:12 <tusho> ais523: It was a guy from /b/, incidentally.
20:22:17 <ais523> yes, I'm not surprised
20:22:28 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but it would not affect all her other services. Only her email
20:22:41 <AnMaster> ais523, while with openid it would allow access to *many* services
20:22:51 <ais523> hmm... OTOH, OpenID would prevent there being easily guessable reset questions in the first place
20:22:59 <ais523> so it's all a matter of balances everywhere
20:23:06 <AnMaster> ais523, reset option shouldn't be easy
20:23:49 <AnMaster> it should require sending to your email which I admit is hard for an email account, but then I suggest a phone call is needed from the isp to the customer to reset pass for that
20:23:54 <AnMaster> it is the only sane way for email
20:24:23 <AnMaster> and not voip phone but real landline phone
20:24:54 <tusho> AnMaster: that'd fuck me over a few years ago, then
20:25:00 <tusho> admittedly, i agreed to being 13 or over...
20:25:14 <tusho> but i was incredibly shy (even more so than now) and, er, my voice was obviously not 13 :P
20:25:33 <AnMaster> tusho, well no solution is perfect
20:25:45 <tusho> a solution is don't forget your password.
20:25:52 <AnMaster> but then I'm sure that could be explained for a human
20:26:21 <ais523> tusho: well people can still fire off the password reset questions even if the account's password is forgotten
20:26:31 <ais523> as many times as they like, often...
20:26:33 <tusho> ais523: because they're trivial for anyone
20:26:51 <ais523> in some places I've had to set up reset questions
20:26:56 <ais523> but they let me pick my question
20:27:04 <ais523> so I made it hard, obscure and without context
20:27:14 <tusho> i make my question 'what is your mothers maiden name'
20:27:18 <tusho> and the answer iudfshsdiufhlsdfijaklsdhaksehu3iqey2378hny78qwjycd89asi8dmnuqwe
20:27:25 <ais523> it was something not very important, so I designed it so my family could guess it and nobody else could
20:27:30 <ais523> you know, just in case...
20:27:38 <AnMaster> tusho, I hope that isn't the real one ;P
20:27:47 <tusho> AnMaster: depends on my entropy at the time...
20:27:54 <tusho> if you seed my random-finger-basher the right way...
20:28:12 <ais523> also, the security questions normally have restrictions on them
20:28:15 <fizzie> I think Gmail has a sneaky feature in that the password reset question is only enabled if the account has not been used for five days; so if you actively use your account, no-one can use the reset feature; and if you really forget the password, you just have to wait a few days.
20:28:28 <ais523> which means the right answer doesn't get through their weak-password-detector
20:29:20 <AnMaster> tusho, actually that is rather predictable, a human will distribute about half the key presses on the left and the right side, and on average every other key press alternate between right and left side iirc
20:29:34 <tusho> AnMaster: what-everrrrrrrrrrrrr
20:30:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you still need the keyboard layout ;-)
20:30:35 <AnMaster> also two key presses after each other tends to be different keys
20:30:42 <tusho> Error loading stylesheet: An unknown error has occurred ()
20:30:56 <Deewiant> tusho: more so than "Error: no error"
20:31:29 <AnMaster> oh and repeating the key like abab is rather common
20:31:53 <AnMaster> <tusho> and the answer iudfshsdiufhlsdfijaklsdhaksehu3iqey2378hny78qwjycd89asi8dmnuqwe <-- no 'aa', but a few 'abab style repeats
20:32:01 <tusho> sruq894ue98tjmf98ujirkuioaua89w4k09e8rsah7ye8a95jye6897hyyujmriouj89048dk89es7kru8txinjcv dhjkzsu98ra7ik8sdiopufjdnvm hsektufy978
20:32:18 <AnMaster> tusho, more random in that aspect ;)
20:32:36 <Deewiant> just "head -b100 < /dev/urandom"
20:32:46 <ais523> | uuencode if you want it printable
20:33:02 <AnMaster> I use head of urandom then filter it through tr
20:38:46 <tusho> ais523: any ideas why http://tusho.net/ doesn't render?brb
20:39:08 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/quAcgw35.html
20:39:23 <AnMaster> tusho, I get "Error loading stylesheet: (null)" in firefox
20:39:25 <ais523> in Konq I get all the text
20:39:30 <ais523> no formatting or anything
20:39:35 <ais523> just a list of text, one after another
20:40:04 <AnMaster> <?xml-stylesheet href="foaf.xsl" type="text/xsl"?>
20:40:10 <AnMaster> tusho, does that file exist? work?
20:40:45 <ais523> hmm... are you using XSLT to convert FOAF into XHTML?
20:40:57 <AnMaster> tusho, validating the style sheet gives "no doctype found, will only check well-formedness"
20:41:03 <AnMaster> and then "document is well formed"
20:46:26 <tusho> ais523: hmm... are you using XSLT to convert FOAF into XHTML?
20:46:29 <tusho> AnMaster: no it's an xsl problem
20:47:12 <tusho> uh i already knew all that
20:47:12 <AnMaster> tusho, I just tried to check the basics
20:53:21 <fizzie> xsltproc gives rather better error messages than browsers, IIRC; at least that (or some other command line tool from libxslt or something) was what I used when writing a relatively complicated html-with-xsl thing few years back.
20:54:17 <tusho> XPath error : Undefined namespace prefix
20:54:17 <tusho> xmlXPathCompiledEval: evaluation failed
20:54:17 <tusho> runtime error: file foaf.xsl line 47 element value-of
20:54:17 <tusho> XPath evaluation returned no result.
20:54:32 <tusho> WHICH NAMESPACE PREFIX YOU FUCKER
20:54:40 <tusho> <dt><xsl:value-of select="foaf:OnlineChatAccount/@rdfs:label"/></dt>
20:56:14 <tusho> ^ possibly the most semantically advanced URI for a personal homepage evar
20:56:44 <tusho> A FOAF document processed via XSLT into XHTML and in the headers a Pavatar header and a YADIS pointer (also gives YADIS via Accept header)
20:56:48 <tusho> the YADIS contains a link to my openid.
20:57:35 <oerjan> what's that picture in the corner?
20:57:39 <AnMaster> tusho, what is the olb tag for?
20:58:00 <tusho> AnMaster: Protip - when faced with unknown schemas, go to the namespace URI
20:58:12 <tusho> http://purl.org/vocab/bio/0.1/olb
20:58:26 <AnMaster> tusho, you like answering oerjan but why not try to act decent towards me too?
20:58:43 <tusho> AnMaster: oerjan's question wasn't answerable by trivial research on his own
20:59:11 <AnMaster> tusho, in this case sure, but I noticed that if ais523 asks something googable you respond
20:59:20 <AnMaster> while that isn't true if I ask
20:59:22 * oerjan is still wondering what the picture _is_
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20:59:34 <tusho> oerjan: i can show you the entire picture if that might help
20:59:45 <ais523> I ask Googlable stuff on IRC all the time, I'm better at using IRC than I am at using Google
20:59:58 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I wonder what it is too
20:59:59 <tusho> oerjan: http://tentaclerapture.com/uploads/AccountPictures/a0c941ca5f6d27efb1008e61f473813f.jpg
21:00:03 <tusho> Figure it out from that.
21:00:04 <ais523> asking someone who knows is more reliable than asking a search engine that's being manipulated by thousands of people across the world
21:00:17 <oerjan> i hope it's not related to the site name...
21:01:55 <AnMaster> tusho, hm what is that site you linked about, the main page is just an anonymous login page heh
21:02:23 <tusho> AnMaster: All the information that is wished to be exposed about that site is on the front page.
21:02:29 <tusho> You will note the footer includes a reference to some forum software.
21:02:39 <tusho> oerjan: can you tell what it is yet
21:02:46 <tusho> AnMaster: That's all you're getting, then
21:03:01 <tusho> oerjan: that black hole is my chair
21:03:07 <tusho> should give some context
21:03:10 <AnMaster> tusho, but if it was a link to phpBB would it be related to the site using it?
21:03:24 <ais523> <a href="phpbb.com">C-INTERCAL</a>
21:03:25 <tusho> it just tells you that it is a forum
21:03:34 <ais523> *<a href="http://phpbb.com">C-INTERCAL</a>
21:03:37 <tusho> ais523: googlebomber!
21:03:41 <AnMaster> tusho, doesn't say what the forum is about
21:03:46 <oerjan> i see something that _might_ be part of a guitar
21:03:47 <tusho> AnMaster: no, it doesn't
21:03:53 <tusho> as I said, the front page is all the info you're getting
21:04:00 <tusho> if there was more info wished to be exposed, the front page would include it
21:04:18 <tusho> the bump in the top-left is a television
21:04:29 <tusho> AnMaster: I never used the word 'we'.
21:04:42 <tusho> oerjan: and the bottom-right thing, which my av comes from, is an imac box
21:04:48 <tusho> AnMaster: But 'we' would be the members.
21:05:20 <AnMaster> tusho, and what is that site above since you are a member. Really bad style not even saying "invite only forum about <foo>" on the main page or such
21:05:41 <tusho> AnMaster: Can't you grasp the concept of "We don't want to tell you anything, go away"?
21:05:46 <tusho> That is the concept that the main page conveys.
21:05:53 <AnMaster> yes and that is bad style IMO :P
21:06:11 <tusho> Yes, but your world of good style conflicts with human nature.
21:06:21 <tusho> In this case, the want of secrecy.
21:06:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, the guitar I can see, but apart from that nothing
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21:06:43 <tusho> I believe ais523 knows what it is due to discussions I've had with him of the development of a custom piece of software for it.
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21:06:54 <tusho> AnMaster: top left bulb is a tv
21:06:58 <tusho> bottom right thing is an imac box with stuff on it
21:07:11 <AnMaster> tusho, what sort of lights did you use?
21:07:13 <tusho> that part of it, blown up, looks neat.
21:07:20 <tusho> AnMaster: photo booth glow effect
21:07:24 <tusho> it was dark at the time
21:07:27 <ais523> tusho: you should have copied the photo elsewhere first
21:07:31 <ais523> to avoid this discussion
21:07:40 <tusho> ais523: it was spur of the moment
21:07:43 <ais523> if you have a http://secretwebsite.invalid, why link it?
21:07:48 <tusho> I was messing with photo booth
21:07:59 <tusho> and because that's where the image was conveniently
21:08:10 <tusho> i linked to a file incidentally on the secret site
21:08:19 <tusho> besides, i'm all for it being linked to
21:08:34 <ais523> tusho: shall we move this conversation over to ##a-cow?
21:13:34 <ais523> it must be, as I linked it here
21:14:37 * oerjan wonders if there is any language where word duplication is the usual means of negating
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21:16:24 <tusho> oerjan: That's a really really good idea.
21:17:08 <ais523> alt.barney.dinosaur.die.die.die and so on
21:17:11 <ais523> you know they love him really
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21:17:50 <tusho> alt.lucas-arts.star-wars.jar-jar-binks.die.die.die
21:18:13 <tusho> alt.fan.starwars.jar-jar-binks.die.die.die
21:18:17 <oerjan> i'd say the evidence is - inconclusive :D
21:19:09 <oerjan> i recall there is alt.fan.swedish-chef.bork.bork.bork or something close
21:19:29 <oerjan> which may be the trope starter
21:19:50 <tusho> context.noun.verb.verb.verb is pretty common, iirc
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21:37:12 <ais523> I'm sitting next to a computer with IE installed
21:37:25 <ais523> if you don't mind waiting 10 mins or so for it to log in, I'll try
21:37:29 <tusho> ais523: how badly does tusho.net fail in it?
21:37:51 <tusho> i think a friend can check
21:37:58 <tusho> unsurprisingly it fails in lynx
21:38:01 <ais523> I've started logging in now, thoughh
21:38:05 <tusho> could you check in w3m, perhaps?
21:38:06 <ais523> it workes in Epiphany over here
21:38:07 <tusho> don't have it here
21:38:15 <tusho> ah, the friend can't do it with IE anyway
21:38:58 <tusho> i mean, w3m is unlikely to contain an xslt implementation :P
21:39:27 <tusho> ais523: esplain :O
21:39:39 <ais523> OK, first, unexpectedly, it works perfectly in IE7
21:39:51 <ais523> just as well as in Epiphany
21:40:06 <tusho> well I have a lot more respect for IE7 than I did a minute ago...
21:40:13 <ais523> second, they've set up the computers here so now there are no roaming profiles
21:40:21 <ais523> all computers have temporary settings which are lost on logout
21:40:27 <ais523> finally, they 'upgraded' to Word 2007
21:40:36 <tusho> what's wrong with word 2007?
21:40:41 <ais523> probably Microsoft forced it on them though, there's far too close an agreement
21:40:45 <tusho> i've heard a lot of good things about it and the negative things have been very vague
21:40:55 <tusho> e.g. i like the idea of the ribbon
21:40:57 <ais523> tusho: it encourages people to save in formats they can't use, for one thing
21:41:01 <ais523> as for the ribbon, it's missing the point
21:41:11 <ais523> the ribbon replaces menus adequately
21:41:19 <ais523> but then you don't have quick access to the things you need
21:41:29 <ais523> one line of toolbar is enough, you can find everything else on the menus
21:41:38 <tusho> Nielson had the ribbon as one of the best UI innovations of recent years
21:41:40 <ais523> with ribbons you just get giant menus you can't hide and no toolbars
21:42:04 <ais523> but I'm most annoyed at the compatibility breakage, really
21:42:44 <ais523> Word keeps getting "cleverer" and "cleverer"
21:42:53 <ais523> to the point it becomes almost unusable due to all the things it's doing automatically
21:42:54 <tusho> docx sucks, indeed
21:43:09 <ais523> things like Smart Tags
21:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I am.
21:52:28 <ais523> the profiles thing is annoying because it means I have to live with XP's interface
21:52:37 <ais523> or else reset it to Windows 95's every time I log in
21:52:47 <ais523> probably I'll just stick to Linux, it's less hassle
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23:17:56 <fizzie> I don't suppose you're here any longer, but does http://zem.fi/g2map/index.cgi/Travel/2007/Lieksa happen to work in IE? I'm a bit surprised if it does, since I didn't really test it with that at all. (Wrote that thing last summer for some GPS-synchronized photos, haven't bothered to take more.)
23:18:15 <ais523> it would look suspicious logging on this late to test one website in IE
23:18:23 <ais523> I'll try some time later for you if you like
23:18:50 <fizzie> Well, if you feel like it. It's nothing important, though.
23:19:06 <ais523> in that cases I'll try iff I remember
23:20:24 <GregorR> fizzie: I only have IE6 on Wine, but suffice to say that it doesn't seem to work.
23:21:17 <fizzie> Working in IE6 would be even more surprising than IE7.
23:22:31 <GregorR> I assume that if it does happen to work in IE7 you'll fix that?
23:24:07 <fizzie> I guess I could, although I doubt anyone stumbles upon it, probably not very many (if any) links to it. I think using the Google Maps Javascript stuff gets me some free portamability, since some mouse-click events are registered with GEvent.addListener() which probably does IE-support-magic.
23:25:15 <fizzie> And actually now that I look at the Javascript, there's even some "if (window.addEventListener) { addEventListener(...) } else { attachEvent(...) }" type code, which might mean I've made some half-assed attempts to make it work.
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23:57:00 <tusho> fizzie: lolwut@those directions
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00:08:30 <fizzie> The longer descriptions at the image pages are more... verbose.
00:09:12 <fizzie> For example, the one with the short description "mailboxes" has a long description: "Mailboxes. Lowercase 'a', lowercase 'b'... uppercase 'C'? Why? Why?! OHGAHGHGHAGH WHAT DOES IT MEAN!! AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE ...really, there wasn't that much to see."
00:09:41 <fizzie> Sleep is necessary now. Already 02am in this time zone.
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01:04:23 <GregorR> My discovery of the day: Chocolate + maple = good
02:05:17 * Sgeo won in a shoppa match (in Worms)
03:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and it does actually have goto :P.
04:41:41 <pikhq> My discovery of the day: CengageNOW sucks balls.
04:42:15 <pikhq> The homework in my calc III class is done via it...
04:42:20 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it is currently down.
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08:15:21 <oklopol> This is recursion. It is perfectly normal and no cause for alarm.
08:17:34 <fizzie> optbot: Re topic, what has goto?
08:17:34 <optbot> fizzie: That's not monospaced.
08:17:50 <fizzie> optbot: Blame your IRC client for the font, not me.
08:17:56 <fizzie> optbot: Well hey there!
08:17:56 <optbot> fizzie: Then I let go :-P
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09:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | where a pointer of some sort travels through the whitespace, constrained by black pixel walls, with other color pixels being instructions..
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11:13:14 <tusho> gotta love the phrase 'AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE'
11:13:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:14:42 <tusho> oerjan: AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE
11:15:20 <tusho> i had said that i love the phrase
11:15:25 <tusho> but not that they did, in fact, stalk my nightmare
11:15:33 <tusho> i gave you new information
11:15:46 <tusho> http://zem.fi/g2/v/Travel/2007/Lieksa/img_3488.jpg.html hahahaha "Beware of crazy people skiing without snow." :D
11:16:04 <oerjan> hm wang = jaw or jawbone
11:16:42 <tusho> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wang#Etymology_2, I assume
11:16:45 <oerjan> or are these chinese people?
11:17:05 <oerjan> wiktionary never comes up when i google
11:17:29 <tusho> so don't google :P
11:18:05 <oerjan> it's on the fourth google page
11:18:35 <tusho> http://zem.fi/g2/v/Travel/2007/Lieksa/img_3499.jpg.html
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11:26:07 <fizzie> Should've tried to find that same tree, though. But I didn't have the sign picture as a reference when taking the new one.
11:27:21 <tusho> fizzie: Does an army of sneezing wangs still stalk your nightmare?
11:34:30 <fizzie> No, it has receded. The source was http://isometric.sixsided.org/_/i_have_horrible_allergies/ -- doesn't seem to be too googlable, thanks to the text-in-pictures thing.
11:37:21 <tusho> fizzie: reminds me of storygen
11:46:21 <Slereah> Do you know Mathematica well?
11:47:41 <Slereah> Is there a function that transforms a function into the computation of its error?
11:48:21 <Slereah> Like a*b -> ((Da/a) + (Db/b) + (Da*Db/a*b)) *ab
11:48:47 <Slereah> i tried looking for "error" in the help, but all I get are error functions.
11:50:23 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propagation_of_error
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12:12:37 <mtve> quite an esoteric language - http://www.gameroo.nl/games/light-bot
12:14:10 <Slereah> "The whole notion of significant digits is heavily flawed"
12:14:17 <Slereah> Damn you physics professors >:|
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12:17:38 <tusho> pikhq: are you there?
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14:29:38 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: And it's cheap!
14:30:08 <Mony> optbot, are u sure ? ;)
14:30:08 <optbot> Mony: is it just like that?
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14:56:36 <AnMaster> optbot, are you a random bot or do you actually try to make sense? ;P
14:56:37 <optbot> AnMaster: This is, to quote Marimite, my way of ``running away'' from exams :P
14:56:52 <tusho> AnMaster: that made sense
14:56:53 <AnMaster> optbot, are you trying to avoid my question?
14:56:54 <optbot> AnMaster: a few of them is alright
14:57:37 <AnMaster> I think he may be saying that it is his way to relax, to turn his brain off
14:57:42 <AnMaster> optbot, are you male or female?
14:57:42 <optbot> AnMaster: hard to say if something is a euphamism
14:58:08 <tusho> AnMaster: hes saying that genders don't matter to him
14:58:27 <tusho> optbot: and yet you're cheerful?
14:58:27 <optbot> tusho: speaking of drugs, i need caffeine
14:58:33 <tusho> his solution is drugs.
14:58:44 <tusho> optbot: we're gonna have to put you in rehab
14:58:45 <optbot> tusho: to allow pushing several in one row
14:58:56 <tusho> optbot: no, you can't take drugs any more sorry
14:58:56 <optbot> tusho: what is your complaint
14:59:07 <tusho> optbot: drugs are bad for computer programs mmkay
14:59:12 <AnMaster> tusho, and that explains why he is talking nonsense sometimes. Some drugs make you act weird
14:59:19 <tusho> optbot: no, i'm pretty sure artificial programs in memory shouldn't take drugs :D
14:59:24 <optbot> tusho: smalltalk is pretty cool.
14:59:31 <tusho> optbot: yes i can see you are an expert at it
14:59:31 <optbot> tusho: then i realized it actually was elp!
14:59:37 <tusho> o_____________________o
14:59:45 <tusho> optbot: what is elp
14:59:45 <optbot> tusho: well the ones with a computational agent, a turtle, are the ones people usually make, simple to invent, usually tc, not at all nice to program
14:59:57 <tusho> looks like he's back on the drugs
15:00:11 <AnMaster> tusho, actually he may be speaking of Logo
15:00:26 <AnMaster> tusho, now that I can't answer
15:02:13 <AnMaster> optbot, so were you talking about Logo there?
15:02:47 <AnMaster> optbot, That reply would had made sense for a statement, but I asked a question...
15:02:57 <AnMaster> tusho, definitely drugs I think...
15:08:12 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: There's a family name in my family that hasn't been used for, oh, ten generations or so.
15:09:14 <optbot> AnMaster: what's wrong with this one?, (define (fib n) (+ (fib (- n 1) (- n 2))))
15:09:37 <AnMaster> optbot, sorry don't know lisp really
15:09:38 <optbot> AnMaster: unsafe functionality in PSOX: Things like opening files
15:10:08 <AnMaster> optbot, for any PSOX discussion I suggest talking to Sgeo
15:10:08 <optbot> AnMaster: it was actually me not understanding git that made me take so long
15:11:23 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: (Kipple note) Since kipple buffers input, you will have to send all of the input and then an EOF command. See !help eof
15:13:11 <optbot> AnMaster: That's why we should use artificial intelligence to do it for us. :-)
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16:03:25 <GregorR> There were these groups of old guys proselytizing with their little green fairytale books on campus today. On the way from my bus stop to my building there were three, which is ridiculous because it's one block.
16:03:40 <GregorR> Anyway, I told the first one to fuck off, and neither of the other two bothered me.
16:17:53 <tusho> holy fuck! AnMaster told ais523 to rotate HIS logs, look at THIS:
16:17:54 <tusho> -rw-r----- 1 root adm 1.5G Sep 24 15:16 /var/log/apache2/access.log
16:18:06 <tusho> oh well, files are there to be there!
16:29:31 <tusho> what is the point of logrotation, it's just battling against the real problem
16:29:35 <tusho> inferior tools & filesystems
16:29:49 <tusho> the file represents the accesses to the webserver.
16:29:53 <tusho> it has never been a problem
16:29:57 <tusho> mostly, we just tail it to check stuff
16:30:01 <tusho> or occasionally grep it
16:30:07 <tusho> probably nowadays we'd have to tail|grep, but whatever
16:30:12 <tusho> i think it's fine, really
16:30:18 <tusho> but it did surprise me when seeing a file that big :D
16:30:31 <AnMaster> tusho, you want to keep logs forever?
16:30:42 <tusho> AnMaster: when I don't I'll cut the file
16:31:04 <AnMaster> tusho, another good reason for log rotation: compressing old log files
16:31:06 <tusho> but I am very fond of preserving ephemera
16:31:22 <tusho> AnMaster: that is true, but we have tons free
16:31:35 <tusho> well, not _tons_ but still
16:31:47 <tusho> actual log rotation is mostly silly to me
16:32:03 <tusho> if you're google... sure, do it
16:32:05 <tusho> you'll probably use up 10gb+ logs a day anyway
16:32:12 <tusho> but rutian is extremely low activity, i can archive logs manually no problem
16:32:46 * tusho tries to open the access log in vim
16:32:57 <tusho> heh, think its trying to load the whole thing.
16:33:29 <AnMaster> tusho, most text editors do that
16:33:45 <tusho> yes, it's a bit silly, really
16:33:49 <tusho> big files exist...
16:34:26 <tusho> it has only loaded up to august :P
16:34:44 <tusho> only reason these logs are so big = the Counter
16:34:50 <tusho> it makes 3 http requests every .5 seconds
16:34:54 <tusho> regardless of whether you click or not
16:35:02 <tusho> i didn't exactly design it for high traffic...
16:37:02 <fizzie> I rotate my irc-logs monthly so that if I know approximately when something was said, I can "grep foo freenode/#chan/2007-0[6-9]*" for it.
16:37:16 <fizzie> For active channels the grep-time is a bit big otherwise.
16:37:18 <tusho> fizzie: i think this is kind of a case for putting logs in a database
16:37:29 <tusho> date-based is just ONE of the ways you might wanna search logs...
16:37:36 <fizzie> Too much work for so little benefit, I think.
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16:45:13 <ais523> also trying to help tusho out of a huge amount of trouble e's got emself into in Agora
16:45:41 <tusho> nothing that can be done save if the ratification was retroactive and thus the message's claim of identity was never a lie
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18:25:33 * ais523 has said hi to the rest of tusho_ already
18:49:40 <CO2Games> what is this, a language based on commands inside pairs of h's?
18:50:04 <ais523> it's just an ad-hoc meme that lasts a few minutes
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20:28:59 <ais523> by the way, does anyone remember Mony doing anything here but saying hi and goodbye
20:29:09 <ais523> and occasionally joining in pointless memes like that h.*h thing above?
20:29:17 <Deewiant> 2008-09-24 16:30:08 ( Mony) optbot, are u sure ? ;)
20:29:18 <ais523> it's just a bit unusual
20:29:45 <ais523> I consider optbot another pointless meme, really
20:29:46 <Deewiant> 2008-09-03 20:52:23( Mony) does anyone got a good tutorial about the PE Format ?
20:30:01 <ais523> that is something substantive, at least
20:30:19 <Deewiant> that's all for this month, though :-P
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20:42:48 <ais523> anyway, as for that discussion we had a while ago about answering the question vs. asking wtf someone is doing:
20:43:05 <ais523> someone on comp.lang.c asked how to load Notepad from a CGI script, without the script waiting for it to finish
20:43:29 <ais523> I can't even think of an eso reason why that is even a remotely good idea...
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20:45:43 <tusho> i did something similar a while back
20:45:52 <tusho> based on flat files
20:46:06 <ais523> anyway, someone actually did give the correct answer (system("start notepad"))
20:46:13 <tusho> http://local-copy/edit?page=foo
20:46:18 <tusho> on your local copy
20:46:22 <tusho> that runs notepad on the cms file
20:46:26 <tusho> and redirects immediately back to the page
20:46:35 <tusho> so for you, you can click 'edit' on the site copy, and get a notepad window pop up
20:47:42 <tusho> except with mine it opened textmate
20:47:53 <tusho> which i actually like, mostly
20:47:57 <tusho> apart from haskell & lisp
20:48:01 <ais523> see, there's an eso reason for everything!
20:48:01 <tusho> which it sucks at, so i use emacs
20:48:08 <tusho> ais523: to be honest, though, i doubt that person had that in mind
20:48:13 <tusho> if you do something that clever, then you don't use notepad.
20:48:28 <tusho> perhaps for staff to edit it
20:48:35 <tusho> although staff would generally prefer wysiwyg, really...
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21:04:38 <oklofok> it opens fast and has an evenly-spaced font by default
21:04:51 <ais523> oklofok: no it doesn't open fast on large files
21:05:03 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't open at all on large files
21:05:04 <ais523> I know this the hard way
21:05:12 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, that's right, used not to
21:05:20 <ais523> I think they fixed that some time around XP, or possibly Vista, though
21:05:25 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? it suggests using word pad instead
21:05:34 <ais523> yes, that was with older versions
21:05:54 <oklofok> indeed it doesn't, wordpad will work for the rest of the cases, except you need to change the font, and it takes about half a second more to open
21:07:11 <ais523> IME Wordpad used courier new for text files by default
21:08:11 <ais523> why did they change that?
21:08:16 <tusho> but... vista deprecated arial
21:08:25 <ais523> tusho: actually XP deprecated arial, for Verdana
21:08:34 <tusho> ais523: verdana is awful, though :P
21:08:35 <ais523> and Vista deprecated Verdana for Calibri
21:08:47 <oklofok> all i know is when i open wordpad, it uses arial.
21:08:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it's alright if you compress it to 90% width
21:08:56 <tusho> verdana is just awful awful awful
21:09:04 <tusho> AnMaster: calibri is a new font
21:09:08 <tusho> along with cambria and consolas
21:09:10 <tusho> and others, i think
21:09:14 <tusho> made by MS for vista
21:09:17 <ais523> yes, there's 6 of them IIRC
21:09:21 <tusho> made by $type_foundry for MS for vista
21:09:25 <oklofok> all fonts are equal up to evenly-spacedness
21:09:35 <ais523> oklofok: even Wingdings?
21:09:41 <tusho> imagine microsoft making a font...
21:09:56 <fizzie> Calibri is Office 2007 default, too; can't remember which one came first, Office 2007 or Vista.
21:09:57 <ais523> which isn't all that bad actually for on-screen use
21:10:00 <tusho> ais523: WHY DID YOU HAVE TO REMIND ME!!!
21:10:08 <oklofok> ais523: some fonts you need to learn to read, yes, i guess that's another difference
21:10:08 <ais523> terrible for printing ofc
21:10:17 <AnMaster> ais523, tusho: Ms Comic Sans ;D
21:10:20 <ais523> oklofok: Lucida Password can't be read at all
21:10:24 <tusho> microsoft did not make comic sans.
21:10:25 <ais523> it maps every printable character to *
21:10:35 <oklofok> okay, i guess i'm wrong, but only a little bit.
21:10:46 <tusho> AnMaster: vincent connare
21:10:51 <tusho> comic sans is not bad
21:10:57 <tusho> overwhelmingly mot uses
21:11:03 <tusho> for comics and similar... it's fine...
21:11:05 <tusho> that's what it's for.
21:11:11 <tusho> it was designed for microsoft bob's interface text, heh
21:11:15 <Deewiant> yeah, it's not bad, it's just useless ;-)
21:11:19 <tusho> (which was all in speech bubbles)
21:11:23 <tusho> Deewiant: if you don't make comics or similar, sure.
21:11:28 <tusho> i don't mean actual comics
21:11:31 <tusho> but comic-esque graphics
21:11:35 <tusho> e.g. speech bubbles
21:11:56 <tusho> i do support banning comics sans though
21:12:01 <tusho> because the human race has proved it can't get it right
21:12:56 <AnMaster> I like Bitstream Vera Sans Mono for anything fixed width, and Computer Modern for serif
21:13:16 <AnMaster> for non-fixed sans serif I don't really favourite
21:13:28 <tusho> "Guys! Let's combine MS Sans Serif and Verdana!"
21:13:34 <tusho> "*creates hideous monster*"
21:13:49 <ais523> luckily most of the fonts I have on here are ones tusho's never even heard of
21:14:03 <tusho> why, don't like my taste in fonts? :P
21:14:08 <ais523> although I have the Linux versions of Arial and such that Microsoft distributed before they changed their minds
21:14:18 <tusho> still legally distributable
21:14:43 * tusho considers overwriting crap fonts with good ones
21:15:01 <AnMaster> <ais523> luckily most of the fonts I have on here are ones tusho's never even heard of <-- like what ones?
21:15:19 <ais523> AnMaster: half of them aren't even for English
21:15:34 <AnMaster> ais523, oh you speak other languages?
21:15:43 <ais523> but Ubuntu supports other languages
21:15:52 <ais523> and the fonts to display all the languages it supports come by default
21:15:56 <fizzie> I've got the "msttcorefonts" package installed also, even though it's non-free in the Debian sense.
21:16:01 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you deselect installing them
21:16:02 <tusho> the default ubuntu fonts... aren't very impressive
21:16:08 <tusho> AnMaster: what if e wants to read another language page
21:16:11 <ais523> tusho: I like this one
21:16:13 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you think of Baskerville?
21:16:16 <ais523> but it's just called "Sans Serif"
21:16:21 <ais523> which is probably not the real name of the font
21:16:25 <tusho> ais523: it's bitstream
21:16:28 <AnMaster> ais523, that maps to some system defined one yes
21:16:32 <tusho> AnMaster: i'm not really a fan.
21:16:34 <AnMaster> and bitstream vera sans is nice
21:16:39 <tusho> the serifs are way too elaborate
21:16:44 <tusho> also the 'a' and 'd' are really ugly.
21:16:53 <tusho> it's better italicized
21:16:54 <AnMaster> tusho, I just picked a random installed font
21:17:02 <tusho> AnMaster: baskerville was designed in 1757
21:17:25 <AnMaster> tusho, really I hardly use anything but Bitstream Vera Sans, Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, Helvetica, Times, Computer Modern
21:17:47 <fizzie> "DejaVu Sans Mono" here for this IRC -- it's basically Bistream Vera Sans Mono with more characters done in the same style.
21:18:02 <tusho> i really dislike the bitstream fonts...to me they are hard to read and i seem to remember typographically they're not too hot either
21:18:05 <AnMaster> that is actually what i use for irc
21:18:07 <tusho> i really like helvetica
21:18:25 <ais523> isn't that the font that's impossible to read when printed because the letters blend into each other?
21:18:43 <tusho> ais523: what, helvetica?
21:18:49 <tusho> helvetica was designed in the 50s
21:18:54 <tusho> has a whole film about it
21:18:58 <ais523> incidentally, does anyone know if there are any commonly-used font formats that are Turing-complete?
21:19:01 <tusho> arial is a ripoff of helvetica
21:19:08 <tusho> because MS didn't want to pay the licensing fees
21:19:17 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica
21:19:20 <Deewiant> and then the ancestor was Grotesque, or what?
21:19:28 <tusho> Deewiant: akzidenz grotesk yeah
21:19:36 <AnMaster> I have helvetica as metafont or whatever but not true type
21:19:46 <AnMaster> it exists in TeX but not as system font huh
21:19:53 <ais523> tusho: yes, that's the font I was thinking of, it doesn't print well
21:20:00 <tusho> it was invented in print!!
21:20:15 <ais523> the letters are too close to each other
21:20:21 <AnMaster> yes I got helvetica, as bitmapped
21:20:22 <tusho> that is not a property of the typeface
21:20:31 <tusho> that is an indication that someone used a too low leading
21:21:03 <tusho> ais523: you probably see helvetica tons every day, btw
21:21:10 <AnMaster> tusho, you are a font geek you know ;P
21:21:20 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly, tusho only likes Mac fonts
21:21:29 <tusho> that...makes no sense
21:21:36 <tusho> all the fonts i like most were invented for print
21:21:53 <tusho> you're just saying that because I like lucida grande and dislike bitstream...
21:22:05 <tusho> (fyi, helvetica neue isn't bundled with anything but os x but it was invented independently)
21:22:05 <AnMaster> tusho, which are the ones bundled with mac.... coincidence? I think not
21:22:14 <tusho> that makes no fucking sense
21:22:22 <tusho> i like the typefaces because _i like the typefaces_
21:22:39 <AnMaster> tusho, no if apple had selected bitstream vera you would like it
21:22:44 <tusho> no i wouldn't have
21:22:51 <tusho> AnMaster: [citation fucking needed]
21:22:56 <tusho> you're just saying it without base at all
21:23:01 <ais523> arguably it's the other way round, maybe Apple only select fonts they like the look of
21:23:05 <ais523> and tusho has similar aesthetics
21:23:10 <AnMaster> tusho, it is based on your personality
21:23:33 <fizzie> Have to admit I use Lucida Console at 8pt for IRC on the iBook.
21:23:48 <tusho> AnMaster: don't ever complain when i help other people and don't help you, why the hell should i help someone who only ever makes baseless accusations based on a completely false stereotype of me.
21:23:59 <AnMaster> I do have some lucida here iirc
21:24:21 <tusho> AnMaster: you only say that because you like free things!
21:24:30 <tusho> if it was licensed under a free license, you'd love lucida!
21:24:38 <AnMaster> tusho, yes and I don't deny it, though I really don't like lucida
21:24:41 <tusho> AnMaster: based on your personality.
21:24:47 <AnMaster> I do like arial better than lucida
21:25:02 <ais523> I don't really care about fonts all that much, so I generally use the free ones for practical reasons
21:25:46 <tusho> i care about baseless, offensive accusations without base made to me by AnMaster while he complains whenever i do the same.
21:25:47 <AnMaster> Or Latin Modern to get vector based fonts instead of pre-rendered bitmapped
21:26:10 <AnMaster> tusho, it is fine when you admit it
21:26:23 <AnMaster> the issue is that you try to deny it
21:26:27 <tusho> AnMaster: why the hell should i admit something that isn't true?
21:27:20 * ais523 still fails to understand why AnMaster and tusho seem to hate each other so much
21:27:25 <AnMaster> tusho, you could have laughed it off and it would never had got to this point
21:27:25 <tusho> jesus christ, AnMaster is such a fucking hypocrite. can't say anything without him accusing me of apple fanboyism or whatever. someone call me when he's stopped talking and hiding everything under the guise of "but it was a joke! nevr mind taht it had no properties of a joke and wasn't funny, it was because i said so!". bye.
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21:27:45 <AnMaster> oh well I know he is log reading
21:28:24 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes I fail to understand why tusho hates me so much as well
21:28:43 <AnMaster> I have no problems with him when he isn't angry
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22:32:12 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: where is the keyboard-plug converter
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23:37:55 <oc2k1> Would it be possible to build an esoteric computer with only a for logic IC and some cache SRams (i.E. 64k x8) ?
23:40:15 <oc2k1> A tape would be possible with a 16 bit updown counter and one SRam, but loading a program could be a small problem...
00:05:20 <olsner> you should build a TM using a casette tape for magnetic storage, then feed it with one of those "infinite" moebius strip tapes
00:06:24 <oc2k1> that would be more complex, because that tape is analog
00:08:24 <oc2k1> counter + sram won't be bad, they could run up to 66 MHz (or heigher, because in BF the addres would be set with the previus command)
00:10:54 <oc2k1> Braintwist would be a possibility: Load the program from IO and swap tapes. Maybe with a hack that uses a rom for init
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00:13:32 <oc2k1> and ethernet as IO :D
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00:42:19 <pikhq> oc2k1: Welcome to the land of Esolangs.
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22:02:51 <oklofok> the trick is we're basically doing that garbage collection technique where you mark things you can see; it's just here we do it every time something is deleted
22:05:43 <oklofok> basically, every object has this nice little number attached to it, and there's another, global number, which gets incremented every time a reference is deleted; when a reference is deleted, the things it references are checked to see if their number is the global number == they've been disref'd this cycle, if it's not the same, have their number inc'd, and refs dec'd, and the reference deletion propagates to whatever they reference, if the refcoun
22:06:12 <oklofok> s/have their number inc'd/set their number to the global number/
22:06:39 <tusho> ais523: interpretation of oklofok's idea pls
22:06:43 <oklofok> i think this is as fast as refcounting, but errorlessss
22:07:34 <tusho> oklofok: plz provide impl
22:07:36 <oklofok> how to appear smart: take a simple idea, and explain it confusingly using all kinds of terms invented on the fly
22:07:39 <ais523> oklofok: what if you have a and b both referencing x, x and y referencing each other?
22:08:04 <ais523> and then, say, a is deleted?
22:08:18 <ais523> what if, instead, x is deleted?
22:08:52 <oklofok> a.ref = x, b.ref=x, y.ref=x, x.ref=y (now we have x.torefs=2) delete a => x.torefs=1, and execution stops
22:09:15 <oklofok> a.ref = x, b.ref=x, y.ref=x, x.ref=y (now we have x.torefs=2) delete x => y.torefs=0 => x and y are deleted
22:09:29 <oklofok> of course, you cannot delete x
22:10:13 <oklofok> you can only delete local variables, basically, or rather, they are the only things that actually ever are explicitly deleted, although automatically
22:10:45 <oklofok> well actually what do i care, x shouldn't be deleted, ever, because x.torefs != 0
22:11:08 <oklofok> ais523: satisfied, disagreeing or confused?
22:11:15 <ais523> ah, I see, even if x goes out of scope a and b might still need it
22:11:25 <ais523> whereas a can go out of scope fine
22:11:31 <ais523> but why is x.torefs 2 not 3
22:11:33 <oklofok> yes, because nothing needs it
22:11:42 <oklofok> actually i guess it's 3...
22:12:01 <oklofok> this is exactly the problem i thought i solved, so i must have some idea
22:12:43 <oklofok> right, the problem is we should also be propagating when the refcount does *not* become zero
22:12:52 <oklofok> that's the whole difference between just refcounting and this
22:13:36 <oklofok> so everytime something is removed, we will effectively exhaust everything reachable from it, deccing the refcounts of the whole closure of references
22:14:10 <oklofok> we can probably optimize this quite a lot by having data structures share locally global refcounts or something
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22:14:33 <ais523> oklofok: "locally global" is a great term
22:14:51 <ais523> also, it reminds me a bit of the way choicepoint stacks work in C-INTERCAL
22:14:58 <ais523> the bottom of the stack is shared but the top isn't
22:15:22 <tusho> ais523: so does it work?
22:15:30 <tusho> and is it just about as efficient as refcounting?
22:15:38 <tusho> if it had all the benefits of gc without actually...gcing, that would rock so hard
22:15:50 <ais523> tusho: I'm not convinced it works yet
22:15:50 <tusho> and oklofok could probably publish a paper on it :P
22:15:53 <ais523> and I don't think it's faster
22:15:58 <ais523> because you're doing the same amount of work
22:16:00 <tusho> ais523: hm, so you still have to traverse shit
22:16:02 <ais523> just at a different time
22:16:17 <ais523> the traversing happens at allocate/finalise, rather than at random intervals
22:16:20 <ais523> actually, that might be faster
22:16:22 <oklofok> so, basically, for the strongly connected components reference graph, we have a shared refcount, methinks
22:16:30 <oklofok> *components of the reference
22:17:00 <tusho> oklofok: is it better than gc for actual use would you say>?
22:17:05 <tusho> or mainly interesting but not useful
22:17:24 <tusho> though if it works, that is neat
22:17:33 <tusho> and also reaffirms my theory that generally you should believe oklofok
22:17:40 <tusho> even if you don't understand wtf he's talking about
22:17:41 <ais523> oklofok's idea strikes me as the sort of thing that seems likely to have a way of working
22:17:56 <ais523> although it also strikes me as the sort of thing that doesn't have all the details worked out yet
22:18:01 <ais523> but it seems plausible as a general idea
22:18:07 <tusho> ais523: that's all of oklofok's stuff.
22:18:16 <ais523> wow, oklofok invented Feather
22:18:28 <ais523> (yes, yes, false syllogism I know)
22:18:40 <oklofok> details generally come when i open python... :P
22:21:16 <oklofok> anyway, i think if something like that was well implemented, it would have cases where refcounting would work as fast as explicit memory deallocation, but that sometimes you would have it propagate deletion information around the variable graph all the time, and things would get n^2
22:21:38 <oklofok> and i cannot open python today, i need to read
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22:22:24 <oklofok> so, when someone leaves the room, do you whois him to see whether he disliked the subject, or just has a habit of leaving channels before disconnecting?
22:22:25 <ais523> oklofok: yes, it obviously has different order properties to standard collection
22:22:32 <ais523> AFAICT it has a better best case and a much worse worst case
22:22:52 <tusho> 'has a habit of leaving channels before disconnecting'
22:23:05 <ais523> tusho: it makes sense for people who like to be clean and tidy
22:23:15 <ais523> for instance I tend to empty the stack in Underload programs before they exit
22:23:16 <oklofok> tusho: it's not that rare.
22:23:18 <tusho> your client already does that...
22:23:22 <ais523> and close programs before shutting down the computer
22:23:30 <ais523> and free() stuff in C just before the program ends
22:23:39 <oklofok> tusho: yes, that's probably the only reason for doing it; this doesn't really change anything
22:23:42 <ais523> none of that is needed, in theory (in the third case not on a decent OS, at least)
22:23:49 <tusho> ais523: i do none of those
22:23:51 <tusho> esp. not closing programs
22:23:54 <tusho> i have too many open
22:24:05 <tusho> i advocate a data-based approach to computing
22:24:09 <tusho> not document or program based
22:24:14 <tusho> so it kind of comes naturally to me
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22:24:45 <ais523> well, I like starting from a clean slate when I boot, and closing things down so I can deal with things that happen during the close down
22:24:59 <ais523> although there usually aren't any
22:25:02 <tusho> ah, you use a stupid os that reopens programs on startup.
22:25:05 <ais523> also it gives me a sort of wind-down
22:25:12 <ais523> it can be set to do that
22:25:15 <ais523> but I haven't set that setting
22:25:26 <tusho> i just suspend this computer :q
22:25:48 <ais523> (btw, I don't exit notification area applications like Akregator or Rhythmbox, even though I do start them by hand, some strange psychology is at work there...)
22:25:56 <oklofok> aaaanyway, this is kinda like connected components, you can do it for the whole graph in O(n) (the GC approach), or find the connected component of every node separately in O(n^2) (the refcounting thing); it's just the latter will actually be closer to O(n) if there are only a few references that cannot be "optimized", and you more easily can do it online
22:26:22 <tusho> oklofok: well, most programs don't have circular references
22:26:24 <tusho> or at least, not too many
22:26:35 <tusho> which is more efficient if you only have a few circular references?
22:26:36 <oklofok> in that case it will be equal to refcounting.
22:26:42 <tusho> as opposed to Circular Reference Exampleprogram Deluxe
22:26:46 <tusho> oklofok: what, won't it handle them properly?
22:27:23 <oklofok> it will handle everything properly, that's not the issue
22:27:25 <ais523> oklofok: actually I think refcounting will be slower as long as you don't have deep chains of objects
22:27:33 <ais523> a linked list would really kill a system like yours
22:27:40 <ais523> hmm... refcounting doesn't like linked lists either, though
22:28:28 <ais523> you're planning to optimise this already?
22:28:53 <oklofok> well i was thinking massive amounts of information about the subgraphs between variables
22:29:02 <oklofok> so you can't execute anything
22:29:12 <oklofok> because you'll just end up changing those graphs for ages
22:29:50 <oklofok> but i don't think i'm going to optimize anything at first
22:30:12 <oklofok> but, i think for recursive data structured, you can use a local global refcount
22:31:12 <oklofok> i'm sure i'll have something concrete tomorrow, if i have the time
22:32:06 <oklofok> i think, at least, this refcounting thing might be a useful abstraction for deducing deletion patterns for data structures
22:32:11 <oklofok> which would be kinda nice already
22:32:25 <tusho> ooh, that'd be nice
22:34:21 <oklofok> for a recursive definition like L = <smth> | L, we see the child always has exactly one reference more than its parent, inside this one data structure, so we have the normal refcount for the nodes, and then just the info how deep they are in the structure, and what the refcount of the ultimate parent is
22:34:42 <oklofok> this shouldn't be list-specific, i'm sure it would work for any tree structure
22:34:58 <oklofok> of course, there would be more propagation... :P
22:35:57 <oklofok> we don't need to know what the exact refcount is for a node
22:36:11 <oklofok> we just need to know whether it has any refcounts from higher up in the data structure
22:36:23 <oklofok> so, we basically have an "ultimate parent" flag
22:36:36 <oklofok> which only propagates one level down when a parent is deleted
22:36:53 <oklofok> this way i think recursive structures can be optimized entirely
22:37:00 <oklofok> except there's a problem ais523 will point out to me
22:37:23 <ais523> does it work on the sort of recursive structure that C-INTERCAL uses to hold threads?
22:37:27 <ais523> that's pretty weird, and complex
22:37:38 <oklofok> an object can be part of any number of data structures, so it will have a list of these ultimate parent flags, and the refcount for other references
22:37:52 <oklofok> i have no idea, what kind are those?
22:38:15 <oklofok> i'm thinking more like something that can be proved to work in all cases
22:38:26 <oklofok> so, i'd say it would work on those
22:38:33 <oklofok> and if not, then i should get back to work
22:47:38 <oklofok> the language for testing, i guess just type definitions, Tree = Node a | Branch (.left Tree) (.right Tree), so you can explicitly give things a type, and then setting variables to things, and setting the references of variables, like {x.ref1 = y}, and {Tree x; x.left = y}, after which x.ref1 wouldn't work anymore, because x would be limited to being a tree
22:48:37 <oklofok> quite a useless language, but i don't think control would complicate the issue at all, at least without concurrency
22:49:23 <ais523> oklofok: well, the C-INTERCAL thread structure is at its base a singly linked ring
22:49:48 <ais523> each member of the ring links to a singly linked list of other objects of the same type which aren't part of the ring (possibly empty)
22:50:10 <ais523> and the tails of those lists can be shared (i.e. after a while the lists point to the same members)
22:50:29 <ais523> also each object has another pointer which can either point to an arbitrary object or to itself
22:50:37 <ais523> pointing to itself is usual
22:50:57 <ais523> finally, there's a sort of object that's just a placeholder and can only exist in the singly linked lists
22:51:10 <ais523> and doesn't have any pointers except the ones that hold the list together
22:51:12 <ais523> I think that's about it
22:51:36 <ais523> (you may boggle at the structure of INTERCAL that it requires such a complicated data structure to represent its threading model, if you wish)
22:51:37 <oklofok> and how is this structure used exactly?
22:51:47 <ais523> well, the ring contains active threads
22:51:51 <ais523> which take turns executing
22:51:57 <ais523> the single lists are choicepoint stacks
22:51:59 <ais523> for each thread in the list
22:52:13 <ais523> they're made out of dormant threads which aren't executing right now, but could be later
22:52:18 <ais523> and stale threads which are just placeholders
22:52:29 <ais523> also, any two threads can either share variables or not share variables
22:52:41 <ais523> and so there's a pointer to the thread in which a thread's variables are actually stored
22:52:54 <ais523> which is normally a pointer back to self, but not necessarily if there's sharing going on
22:53:34 <oklofok> when a thread becomes dormant, it takes the next thread, and attaches itself to that thread's linked list?
22:53:47 <oklofok> or what's the point of these lists
22:54:17 <ais523> a user can create a dormant thread that's a copy of the current one
22:54:21 <ais523> and push it onto the choicepoint stack
22:54:34 <ais523> a user can also replace the current thread with the top dormant one on its choicepoint stack
22:54:47 <ais523> except that if the tail of that stack is shared with another, the thread is deleted instead
22:55:05 <ais523> (N.B. this requires reference-counting to work correctly)
22:55:24 <ais523> this makes it possible to backtrack past a fork()-equivalent
22:55:30 <ais523> it's latin for "note well"
22:55:53 <ais523> but normally in English it's basically like a P.S. it's something that you just mention even though it isn't part of your main point
22:55:57 <oklofok> i see, no wonder i couldn't reverse-engineer that
22:56:26 <ais523> oklofok: if you had done you'd probably have deduced INTERCAL's entire threading model from scratch
22:56:35 <ais523> and it's taken years to get it properly confused
22:56:53 <oklofok> reverse-engineer n.b. i meant :P
22:57:29 <ais523> yes, an idiomatic English abbreviation that's actually an abbreviation for some Latin words which mean something else tends to be quite hard to guess
22:57:50 <ais523> probably it best translates to "by the way", if you know that idiom
22:58:23 <oklofok> it's actually somewhat used in finnish
23:00:01 <oklofok> i'm gonna read a bit, and then sleep now, i'll look at that reference language tomorrow
23:00:30 <ais523> read, then sleep retroactively through the time you were reading
23:00:37 <ais523> multitasking via temporal paradox
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23:36:18 <tusho> finally got yahoo to cancel that domain
23:36:27 <ais523> actually, I'd better go home now
23:36:33 <ais523> almost missed my bus...
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07:13:15 <oklopol> i somewhat proved my original idea wouldn't work, but devised another scheme that seems more promising
07:23:38 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p466532445.txt
07:24:11 <oklopol> the dictionary of references is just the normal references an object has to other objects
07:24:40 <oklopol> backrefs are just the other directions of references, because we need to be able to follow them backwards
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07:25:07 <oklopol> rootrefcount is what (i think) makes this work
07:25:33 <oklopol> root refs are references directly from a variable on stack
07:26:14 <oklopol> only when they reach zero will we have to do any checking for whether there are paths to the object
07:26:49 <oklopol> and the idea is, we mostly reference objects directly from local variables, so we don't need to do these searches that often
07:27:07 <oklopol> then again, i might be wrong, but i think this one would at least work.
07:43:41 <fizzie> Just intuitively speaking, "search through backrefs to find a path to root" sounds like it would take a while, given that it can (apparently?) be an arbitrary, cyclic graph.
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07:46:48 <oklopol> fizzie: it could definitely take a while
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07:50:24 <oklopol> for simple cases it will only run the search a few times, and that's all i care about :P
07:50:37 <oklopol> i have more useful ideas regarding typed structures
07:55:11 <fizzie> Not right now, too early for thinking. I guess it sort-of sounds like it would not leak.
07:55:37 <oklopol> yes, that's very probably, it's just currently it's a bit useless.
07:59:39 <oklopol> i have a demonstration in 15 minutes
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15:22:09 <GregorR> If I had tons of money I would air a commercial that was just a black screen with the white text "You just lost the game."
15:29:17 <Slereah> Can Mathematica use the +/- operator?
15:29:34 <Slereah> It's in the character set, but it never tries to solve the problem I submit with it
15:32:42 <Slereah> Plusminus is apparently in the "symbol without built-in meaning" category.
15:33:56 <tusho> ±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±
15:37:02 <Slereah> I'm looking at a shitload of cases here.
15:37:22 <tusho> Slereah: implement ± yourself?
15:37:24 <GregorR> Just solve in 2^(number of instances of ±) cases?
15:37:24 <Slereah> Error computation mean that I'll have to search for the worst case scenario.
15:37:43 <Slereah> Yeah, that's what I wanted to do
15:37:48 <Slereah> But first, I have to learn Mathematica's syntax
15:37:54 <Slereah> Usually I just use it for problem solving
15:39:19 <Slereah> I have that so far by hand :
15:39:20 <Slereah> a^3 \[PlusMinus] 3 a^2 \[CapitalDelta]a +
15:39:20 <Slereah> 3 a \[CapitalDelta]a^2 \[PlusMinus] \[CapitalDelta]a^3 = (
15:39:20 <Slereah> P^2 \[PlusMinus] 2 P \[CapitalDelta]P + \[CapitalDelta]P^2)/(
15:39:20 <Slereah> 2 \[Pi] \[CapitalDelta]\[Pi] + \[CapitalDelta]\[Pi]^2)) *(G \
15:39:22 <Slereah> \[PlusMinus] \[CapitalDelta]G) ((M \[PlusMinus] \[CapitalDelta]M) + \
15:39:24 <Slereah> (m \[PlusMinus] \[CapitalDelta]m))
15:39:46 <Slereah> Of course, Mathematica translates poorly on IRC
15:48:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yeah.. not quite sure what I was thinking with that.
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16:08:10 <optbot> AnMaster: it does pass on true linux and true freebsd I know
16:08:51 <AnMaster> wonder what the context of that was
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17:48:17 <Slereah> I surrender to you, mighty moon men!
17:48:46 * GregorR sucks out Slereah's brain with a straw.
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17:51:08 <Slereah> Mathematica has way too much stuff
17:51:13 <Slereah> It be hard to find something
17:51:41 <ais523_> actually, half the time it isn't there
17:51:42 <GregorR> Tragically, Slereah spent so long looking for a function in Mathematica that in the process he forgot how to speak English.
17:51:45 <ais523_> one big problem with Mathematica is that it seems to like a huge number of single-purpose functions
17:51:47 <ais523_> which can be chained into one big inefficient function
17:52:10 <ais523_> but really, if you want to do something the Wolfram people didn't think of, the code ends up monstrous and a couple of computational orders slower than it should be
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17:53:14 <Slereah> But I'm not looking at something hard
17:53:33 <Slereah> Like it has no defined PlusMinus function.
17:53:53 <GregorR> programHalts(program, input)
17:53:54 <Slereah> And the definition proposed in the help file isn't very helpful
17:55:46 <Slereah> Right now, I'm hoping for something useful to plot orbits.
17:56:15 <Slereah> Like something where you can make evolve points with t, instead of just the whole orbit
17:56:31 <ais523> Slereah: unfortunately Wolfram seem to think half their functions are general when they aren't
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17:58:15 <tusho> who wants to explain to me why i'd want a pgp key for anything that isn't email
17:59:19 <Slereah> It's weird. Most articles don't contain the time dependance of orbits.
17:59:27 <Slereah> They just give you the whole orbit.
17:59:32 <Slereah> Fuck it, I'll just compute it.
18:01:22 <Slereah> It's been a while since orbital mechanics.
18:12:06 <ais523> tusho: other cases where you need to confirm your identity?
18:12:12 <ais523> what if you were a DNS server, for instance?
18:12:42 <tusho> although that just confirms i own tusho.net
18:12:45 <tusho> and is also http bound
18:13:03 <tusho> microid, possibly?
18:13:21 <tusho> pgp has the advantage of being older ofc
18:14:06 <ais523> nowadays people use OpenPGP instead to avoid paying licensing
18:14:11 <ais523> and OpenPGP isn't all that old
18:14:42 <tusho> yes, but the actual key system...
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19:31:00 <AnMaster> as for mathematica, I'm sure maxima can't do as much, but maxima is 1) free 2) works fairly well for a lot of problems, and have decent speed
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19:31:46 <AnMaster> tusho, you could use gpg to sign tarballs you release
19:31:54 <tusho> AnMaster: like that ever happens :D
19:31:55 <AnMaster> that is about the only reason apart from email I can think of
19:32:07 <AnMaster> tusho, well if you don't do that then I guess that is not a reason for you then
19:32:17 <tusho> i was joking about my not ever doing anything.
19:32:20 <tusho> oh wait, that's not a joke.
19:32:33 <AnMaster> 11:29:20 up 16 days, 23:38, 3 users, load average: 429.31, 219.79, 596.82 <-- hm... I don't like that on a server...
19:32:47 <tusho> 18:32:41 up 26 days, 21:49, 1 user, load average: 0.15, 0.03, 0.01
19:32:55 <tusho> wonder why we rebooted last?
19:32:56 -!- Corun__ has joined.
19:32:58 <AnMaster> (so about nothing apart from reporting it that I can do)
19:33:32 <ais523> not surprising as I turn it off when I'm not using it
19:33:40 <AnMaster> 20:33:32 up 31 days, 7:50, 32 users, load average: 0.37, 0.35, 0.22
19:33:51 <AnMaster> but I was talking about the horrible load average
19:34:12 <AnMaster> tell me if http://supertux.lethargik.org/wiki/Main_Page loads at all, and if it does how long does it take
19:34:32 <AnMaster> (that is the server with the horrible load average, and it is shared hosting so I can't do anything about it really)
19:34:59 <AnMaster> 11:34:45 up 16 days, 23:43, 3 users, load average: 651.20, 482.98, 247.35 <-- ugh
19:35:19 <tusho> 7:35pm up 9 days 20:54, 0 users, load average: 0.15, 0.14, 0.16
19:35:29 <AnMaster> it takes about 10 seconds from hitting enter to the output currently
19:35:30 <tusho> i rebooted for an efi upgrade, iirc
19:35:43 <tusho> i bet optbot is still hogging memory
19:35:43 <optbot> tusho: what i have is basically a haskell-like syntax, from the standpoint of minimal keywords and you just say foo x y = .. to define a function, and give it a haskell like type signature
19:36:13 <ais523> tusho: is that a reply to optbot, or something up on rutian?
19:36:14 <tusho> PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
19:36:14 <optbot> ais523: !bf +++[>++++++++++++<-]>.
19:36:14 <tusho> 15752 root 16 0 14588 1296 1180 S 9999 0.5 0:00.00 ApplicationPool
19:36:14 <tusho> 15753 www-data 16 0 345m 4508 1748 S 9999 1.7 0:00.00 apache2
19:36:14 <tusho> 15755 www-data 24 0 345m 4560 1776 S 9999 1.7 0:00.00 apache2
19:36:15 <tusho> 1919 mysql 16 0 222m 7044 3008 S 9999 2.7 0:04.41 mysqld
19:36:15 <tusho> 2450 mysql 16 0 222m 7044 3008 S 516 2.7 0:17.56 mysqld
19:36:16 <tusho> 1933 mysql 16 0 222m 7044 3008 S 493 2.7 0:16.79 mysqld
19:36:18 <tusho> 14922 mysql 16 0 222m 7044 3008 S 355 2.7 0:12.09 mysqld
19:36:20 <tusho> 14535 mysql 15 0 222m 7044 3008 S 310 2.7 0:10.56 mysqld
19:36:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: with that domain name what do you expect? :D
19:36:22 <tusho> 1930 mysql 16 0 222m 7044 3008 S 153 2.7 0:05.22 mysqld
19:36:24 <tusho> 1928 mysql 16 0 222m 7044 3008 S 50 2.7 0:01.69 mysqld
19:36:26 <tusho> 1927 mysql 16 0 222m 7044 3008 S 44 2.7 0:01.51 mysqld
19:36:29 <tusho> it sorts itself out after a second though...
19:36:32 <tusho> so i guess a top glitch
19:36:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, true. Though I didn't pay for it, another developer on the supertux project pays for hosting
19:37:07 <AnMaster> but better than sf.net or berlios.de at least
19:37:20 <tusho> dreamhost are pretty good as far as shared hosting go
19:37:31 <tusho> they used to oversell but they seemt o have stopped that now
19:37:36 <AnMaster> tusho, hm... as far as I can tell it is swap trashing
19:37:45 <tusho> someone misbehaving perhaps
19:37:49 <AnMaster> over 1 GB swap filled now, was just 500 MB a while ago
19:38:00 <AnMaster> tusho, can't say, ps aux only show own processes
19:38:04 <tusho> 9480 tusho 16 0 172m 30m 980 S 0 11.8 0:00.86 ruby
19:38:05 <tusho> 15880 www-data 16 0 134m 16m 5668 S 0 6.5 1:02.10 php-cgi
19:38:05 <tusho> 15817 www-data 17 0 106m 9620 5004 S 0 3.7 1:08.50 php-cgi
19:38:05 <tusho> 1919 mysql 16 0 222m 7044 3008 S 0 2.7 0:04.41 mysqld
19:38:11 <tusho> followed by tons of mysqls at 2.7%
19:38:17 <tusho> the 11.8% ram usage for ruby is optbot
19:38:17 <optbot> tusho: of course to really fry your brain you would want the set of dimensions itself to be an infinite-dimensional space
19:38:20 <tusho> as it loads all the logs into memory
19:38:24 <AnMaster> tusho, they blocked ps aux so you can only see yourself
19:38:41 <AnMaster> Linux millhouse 2.4.32-grsec+f6b+gr217+nfs+a32+fuse23+tg+++opt+c8+gr2b-v6.194 #1 SMP Tue Jun 6 15:52:09 PDT 2006 i686 GNU/Linux
19:39:34 <tusho> Millhouse is not a server.
19:39:35 <AnMaster> tusho, it is swap trashing and cpu trashing, since the swap trash ratio is rather moderate but the system is very very slow
19:39:43 <AnMaster> tusho, it is the one I'm sshed to
19:39:51 <tusho> Millhouse is NOT a server.
19:40:38 <AnMaster> oh god.... please please stop trolling, no one think you are funny
19:41:35 <tusho> I like to imagine AnMaster begging on his knees. "Oh god... please, please, PLEASE stop trolling..."
19:41:47 <AnMaster> tusho, no it wasn't begging on my knees
19:41:50 -!- Corun_ has quit (Connection timed out).
19:42:06 <AnMaster> it was a "sigh, soon time to ignore again"
19:43:44 <AnMaster> btw how many of you know of the ssh abort sequence?
19:44:07 <ais523> now everyone paying attention does
19:44:20 <AnMaster> ais523, certainly and they can claim they knew it all along
19:53:52 -!- Corun__ has changed nick to Corun.
20:03:36 -!- oklofok has joined.
20:04:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:10:37 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:13:14 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/balls.jpg
20:13:20 <Slereah> What the fuck is this giant ball
20:13:32 <Slereah> Isn't that shit a triple of numbers?
20:17:29 <oerjan> i don't know but maybe it's a syntax problem? try liberally adding parentheses, including around the whole triple
20:17:43 * oerjan doesn't know mathematica though
20:18:04 <Slereah> Here's the expression : Sphere[{xcharyb[\[Epsilon], \[Alpha], t],
20:18:04 <Slereah> ycharyb[\[Epsilon], \[Alpha], t], 0}, .5]
20:18:30 <Slereah> I know it can work, I stole it from somewhere else
20:18:41 <Slereah> I just tweaked some stuff to make it fit the problem
20:19:25 <oerjan> maybe something is not being calculated all the way to a number?
20:19:48 <Slereah> That's my main problem with Mathematica
20:20:03 <Slereah> Once in a while, it simply refuses to compute a value while plotting something
20:20:10 <Slereah> And I never have any idea why
20:20:26 <oerjan> so it works when you calculate the coordinates separately?
20:22:17 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:22:29 <Slereah> Ah, I think I found the problem
20:22:53 <Slereah> xcharyb is defined as x[\[Epsilon], aua[80, Sdef], \[Alpha], t]
20:23:03 <Slereah> And when I compute that with some values
20:23:15 <Slereah> I get fucking 1.57557*10^-7 a[80, Sdef]
20:23:32 <Slereah> It can't compute the function a?
20:24:13 <Slereah> I apparently forgot some function-validating
20:25:20 <Slereah> Well, the plotting still doesn't work, but we're getting somewhere
20:26:51 <Slereah> How come Mathematica can display its character set, but not the errors?
20:26:58 <psygnisfive> we've been building turing machines in my philosophy and computers class
20:27:13 <psygnisfive> i built a machine that does remainder division. :T
20:27:13 <Slereah> psygnisfive : I was doing it before it was cool
20:27:35 <oerjan> that's it. someone hand me the mouthwash.
20:27:35 <Slereah> Because it is the Love Machine 9000.
20:28:10 <psygnisfive> im doing it all with quintuples and a single tape machine
20:29:00 <psygnisfive> and i want to just built a universal machine so i dont have to come up with any more specific machines
20:29:25 <Slereah> psygnisfive : There's one in the original Turing article
20:29:28 <psygnisfive> i mean, i want to just like.. do a MIPS-esque type architecture
20:29:34 <psygnisfive> because thats easy to conceptualize for me
20:30:01 <psygnisfive> if im not mistaken, he discusses a machine that takes another TM specification and simulates it
20:30:14 <Slereah> Well, when you say "specification"
20:30:14 <psygnisfive> but that still requires that i design other turing machines
20:30:21 <Slereah> It's actually a terrible unary encoding
20:30:45 <psygnisfive> i want to just get away from having to design task specific machines and abstract out to something general
20:31:02 <Slereah> psygnisfive : Use my Love Machine 9000!
20:31:05 <psygnisfive> not that TM specifications arent general for this machine
20:31:08 <Slereah> It's a general Turing machine.
20:31:31 <Slereah> And I'm pretty sure it works. I haven't tried in a while.
20:31:36 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/NTCM
20:31:48 <oerjan> psygnisfive: maybe write a compiler...
20:32:16 <psygnisfive> oerjan: im just gonna try and build a mips-like machine.
20:32:29 <psygnisfive> we're using VisualTuring to build out machines
20:32:50 <psygnisfive> but it doesnt have like.. proper "states" right
20:33:22 <psygnisfive> so that each state has a particular action necessarily associated with it
20:33:28 <psygnisfive> either do nothing, move right, move left, or write a symbol
20:33:45 <psygnisfive> so the machines end up with these absurdly hard to follow designs
20:34:06 <psygnisfive> and the states themselves dont seem to be able to REPRESENT anything
20:34:26 <psygnisfive> tho luckily you can use the do-nothing states as proper states
20:34:48 <psygnisfive> it also doesnt show state transitions, so you cant follow the behavior of the machine
20:35:32 <psygnisfive> you have to drag out these action-state things
20:35:46 <psygnisfive> and then you have to CHANGE TOOLS to connect it to another state
20:36:13 <psygnisfive> then you have to change tools AGAIN to specify the conditions of the transition
20:36:25 <psygnisfive> and you have to change tools AGAIN to delete anything
20:37:03 <psygnisfive> and when you edit the tape, you have to click the tape, and then navigate it, tape-cell by tape-cell, using your arrow keys
20:37:11 <psygnisfive> you cant just click on a tape cell and edit it.
20:38:43 <oerjan> so basically, the only positive thing about this is that you can sue your school for RSI damages afterwards?
20:39:28 <oerjan> repetitive strain injury
20:39:39 <Slereah> Can I sue Wolfram for that?
20:40:04 <oerjan> doubtful, software always contains a heap of disclaimers doesn't it
20:40:53 <psygnisfive> we should build an awesome turing machine simulator
20:41:54 <oerjan> psygnisfive: now you're really hurting Slereah ;(
20:43:46 <Slereah> It totally simulates a Turing machine dude
20:44:39 <oerjan> Slereah: pay attention to the grammar
20:45:36 * oerjan wonders if slereah's's would be legal english
20:46:43 <Slereah> I think that two elisioned sesses are combined in one, technically
20:46:46 <psygnisfive> i doubt you'd pronounce it like that tho. it'd probably just be pronounced /sliri@z @z/
20:46:53 <psygnisfive> which is actually i guess how you'd pronounct slereah's's
20:47:35 <psygnisfive> you can only combine them with plural and possessive
20:48:51 <psygnisfive> cmon guys, lets design a universal machine using 5-tuples
20:49:45 <psygnisfive> maybe not mips like but simple and properly CPU-ish
20:50:09 <psygnisfive> so what are some fundamental operations we need?
20:50:25 <Slereah> Operation 1 : Getting the Love Machine 9000 :o
20:50:53 <psygnisfive> if you want me to have sex with you just say so.
20:51:42 <Slereah> The Love Machine 9000 is the official name of NTCM.
20:52:05 <Slereah> I never really had to use it officially
20:59:33 <Slereah> Finally, that piece of shit Mathematica is working
20:59:41 <Slereah> It's not very good at error warnings
21:00:41 <psygnisfive> anyone have a good reference for a simple but not-completely incomprehensible RISC design?
21:00:58 <oerjan> i'd say "love machine" is a perverse name for a Nested Tropical Cyclone Model
21:01:28 <oerjan> psygnisfive: what's wrong with subleq? :)
21:02:09 <Slereah> oerjan : Sum tropical love
21:02:28 <Slereah> Also, define "instruction"
21:04:09 <Slereah> How many instructions would you consider a RISC?
21:04:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: I meant mips
21:04:32 <oklofok> it's not about the quantity, it's about having reduced some original quantity
21:04:49 <psygnisfive> im considering mips. i know some stuff about it already.
21:04:51 <Slereah> oklofok : Wouldn't any qualify?
21:05:02 <tusho> psygnisfive: jsmips
21:06:09 <oerjan> optbot: Which CPU architecture do you prefer?
21:06:10 <optbot> oerjan: Here's a hint for writing Glass code: make every line a 0-stack-change element. The code is less efficient, but wildly more understandable.
21:06:14 <tusho> GregorR: http://github.com/kobs/js-mips/
21:06:24 <psygnisfive> tusho: im actually going to try and implement it on a 5-tuple turing machine. :P
21:06:33 <tusho> that might be hard
21:06:51 <tusho> psygnisfive: subleq
21:07:05 <tusho> psygnisfive: tough shit
21:07:34 <oklofok> didn't GregorR make quite an extensive set of basic operations for subleg
21:09:35 <tusho> i see what you did thar
21:10:46 <ais523> oerjan: unfortunately sublet is a real word
21:10:50 <ais523> not a common one though
21:11:26 <Slereah> I subleted your mom last night.
21:11:36 <oerjan> i submit that we sublet that meaning
21:11:41 <oklofok> i heard your mom last night
21:12:08 <Slereah> Well I heard you like mudkips
21:15:02 -!- chrisdb has joined.
21:15:50 <Slereah> So I herd u want to make ur own programming language
21:16:35 <chrisdb> Well, I was thinking about it for a hobby.
21:16:59 * oerjan subletty hides the mudkips
21:17:04 <Slereah> That's what this is all about.
21:17:27 <oklofok> chrisdb: tell us all about it
21:18:11 <Slereah> We're aroused by such concepts
21:18:15 <tusho> chrisdb: ignore Slereah
21:18:20 <tusho> also, you need to sacrifice some goats
21:18:21 <oerjan> Slereah: well some of you
21:18:36 <ais523> well, this channel is about making new and strange languages half the time
21:18:47 <ais523> the rest of the time it's about random crap because we're rubbish at enforcing topicality
21:19:12 <ais523> oerjan: well I tend to enforce topicality more than most people, so I see the channel as topical more than the rest of you do, I expect
21:19:22 <tusho> this channel is effectively an anarchy
21:19:32 <tusho> lament is never on, and when he is he never uses his op powers
21:19:49 * ais523 expects lament to randomly join and kick tusho at that moment
21:20:12 <oerjan> ais523: tusho is not spamming _now_ ...
21:20:22 <chrisdb> There isn't much to tell. I haven't done anything yet except reread the books gathering dust on my shelves about compiler writing (although I was only planning on a slow demo interpreter). I like programming languages which let you customise pretty much everything - Smalltalk and Ruby are examples of languages which allow you to override stuff which is hard coded in other languages. But...
21:20:22 <ais523> I mean, just to make the point
21:20:24 <chrisdb> ...most, like Ruby, have some limits, or have annoyances like the lack of support for proper operator precedence (Smalltalk).
21:20:32 <chrisdb> Of course, if I ever got it working it will be slow as hell.
21:20:44 <ais523> don't worry, most of the languages we come up with are slow as hell
21:20:44 <tusho> smalltalk's operator precedence is fine imo :P
21:20:48 <ais523> we don't bother about impractical ideas
21:20:59 <tusho> ais523: imagine an AnMaster written feather interp...
21:21:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
21:21:09 <ais523> in fact a decent proportion of the languages we come up with are theoretically impossible to implement, and that's been proved in some cases
21:21:26 <chrisdb> tusho: it just works left to right!
21:21:31 <tusho> "I added some _posix and now it runs Hello World in 328472384723487234 years instead of 328472384723487239"
21:21:39 <tusho> operator precedence is confusing anyway
21:21:41 <tusho> AnMaster: a newbie
21:21:53 <AnMaster> anyway what language were you talking about?
21:22:08 <psygnisfive> which languages are impossible to implement? :o
21:22:14 <tusho> AnMaster: the time it took you to type that > the time it'd take to look up
21:22:38 <chrisdb> Left to right is confusing. I mean, you just don't expect 5 + 3 * 2 to evaluate as 16.
21:22:40 * oerjan gets ready to poison the competition
21:23:01 <psygnisfive> but only because you have knowledge of mathematical operator precedence. :P
21:23:06 <ais523> here 5 + 3 * 2 would probably evaluate as 10023 for no particularly good reason, some of the time
21:23:08 <AnMaster> chrisdb, I expect it to evaluate according to math rules ;P
21:23:12 <ais523> Java2K does that, IIRC
21:23:30 <chrisdb> Clearly, operator precedence should exist but be configurable. :p I want a programming language where I can increase the precedence of + or decrease it as I want.
21:23:35 <ais523> no, INTERCAL doesn't have the usual arithmetic operators at all
21:23:39 <tusho> also designed by mathematicians
21:23:49 <tusho> which leads me to believe that you're all a bunch of precedence-obsessed crazies
21:23:56 <chrisdb> tusho: Pure functional languages are annoying.
21:23:57 <ais523> haskell's a real language, but a very elegant one
21:24:03 <ais523> and would be almost eso if it hadn't caught on
21:24:04 <AnMaster> chrisdb, actually I get 5 + 3 * 2 to a stack of 15,2 with 2 at the top
21:24:06 <tusho> chrisdb: mathematics is a purely functional language.
21:24:12 <Slereah> Haskell is annoying, chrisdb
21:24:16 <tusho> either you want mathematics or you don't, chrisdb
21:24:18 <AnMaster> chrisdb, that is assuming rpn and that empty stack is 0 ;P
21:24:33 <GregorR> Haskell's a real language, but also an unstable equilibrium :)
21:24:57 <fizzie> I think Prolog (at least the swi-prolog implementation) lets you manipulate operator precedence. At least you can specify the precedence for user-defined operators.
21:24:59 <chrisdb> Slereah: Scheme isn't truly pure functional though. I like the ability to express mathematics concepts easily.. I just want to be able to store state in a non-painful way.
21:25:10 <chrisdb> For some programming problems, the easiest solution is persistent state.
21:25:28 <chrisdb> Haskell makes persistent state feel like having teeth extracted.
21:25:30 <AnMaster> chrisdb, sure, start another process that calls itself tail recursively (the erlang way)
21:25:57 <AnMaster> (erlang is purely functional, and concurrent)
21:26:11 <tusho> also, ignore AnMaster, he's still pleased to himself to no end that he managed to grasp basic erlang
21:26:20 <psygnisfive> state is really just a state object that continuously gets replaced as it gets passed from function to function ;D
21:26:20 <tusho> anyway, state in haskell is trivial
21:26:22 <AnMaster> also ignore tusho, he hates me
21:26:41 <tusho> AnMaster: If by "no reason" you mean "close to everything you say is wrong or misguided"...
21:26:44 <oerjan> always ignore tusho and AnMaster when talking to each other
21:26:47 <chrisdb> fizzie: This is true. I think the upcoming (for about 50 years) Perl 6 will have user defined operators won't it?
21:26:58 <tusho> chrisdb: Also, this channel is never this fast, ever.
21:27:00 <psygnisfive> hes at that tender young age where a boy is supposed to hate the entire world
21:27:01 <ais523> both tusho and AnMaster are good to talk with individually
21:27:17 <ais523> but never allow them to talk to each other, it always ends in tears
21:27:24 <fizzie> chrisdb: At least Perl 6 will have a whole lot of operators; at some point there were some non-ascii ones, too.
21:27:29 <oerjan> tusho: critical mass, i said
21:27:30 <tusho> shut up psygnisfive
21:27:38 <AnMaster> well no one can blame him, he will grow up at some point
21:27:43 <tusho> psygnisfive: shut up.
21:27:50 <tusho> psygnisfive: shut up.
21:27:55 <Slereah> psygnisfive is a dirty pedo
21:28:17 <Slereah> Yes, but my shirt is awesome
21:28:20 <ais523> ah, I still have psygnisfive on ignore
21:28:25 <tusho> also, someone tell AnMaster to stop fucking acting like "SIGH, well he will GROW UP at one point", I can't because I'm too busy telling psygnisfive to shut up.
21:28:28 <ais523> I was wondering why I only saw half the conversation
21:28:37 <ais523> and based on what I saw, probably I'll leave the ignore there a bit longer
21:28:39 <chrisdb> tusho: about the only easy way to get persistent state in Haskell is to pass your variables as arguments through all your functions. Which is damn annoying. I'm not a member of the 'global variables are always evil' brigade.
21:28:40 <AnMaster> ais523, why did you have him on ignore?
21:28:46 <tusho> chrisdb: StateT, man.
21:28:50 <psygnisfive> tusho: if you'd stop freaking out about your age i wouldn't enjoy poking fun at you so much. :D
21:28:54 <chrisdb> Although I am a member of the 'goto is evil' brigade.
21:28:56 <ais523> AnMaster: saying offtopic stuff I didn't particularly want to listen to
21:29:06 <tusho> psygnisfive: I haven't fucking freaked out about my age for months.
21:29:07 <ais523> chrisdb: do you consider COME FROM evil?
21:29:15 <psygnisfive> and yet i mention it once and you freak out
21:29:19 <ais523> well, I use ? in C but not goto
21:29:24 <psygnisfive> and i mention it in a purely humorous context!
21:29:24 <ais523> except in generated code
21:29:25 <tusho> psygnisfive: because it's fucking old, and pisses me off to no end
21:29:30 <ais523> my generated code contains lots of gotos
21:29:37 <psygnisfive> which is a clear sign that you're immature.
21:29:38 <tusho> esp. because it's the perfect setup for AnMaster whining about how "OHHH HE'LL GROW UP"
21:29:39 <chrisdb> ais523: Come from would be evil if it existed in a mainstream language. As it is, it's just funny.
21:29:41 <AnMaster> ais523, there are some valid reasons for goto in C
21:29:50 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but they've never happened to me
21:30:01 <psygnisfive> unfortunately, most programmers are idiots. :P
21:30:01 <ais523> I know what they are, though
21:30:12 <tusho> "I am annoyed by things. Ergo, I am immature." Somebody give psygnisfive a Logic Medal.
21:30:26 <psygnisfive> no, you're pissed off by the mere mention of your age
21:30:39 <AnMaster> ais523, some error handling, you need to free a lot of stuff at the end of all error paths, and it can error out in many places, so a goto error; then error: <cleanup code> at the end of the function after the normal return
21:30:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I used that in FILE and SOCK in cfunge
21:30:50 <psygnisfive> a mature person would realize that it was said in a humorous context and would GO WITH THE HUMOR
21:31:03 <ais523> AnMaster: normally I instead put the relevant section into a function and use return
21:31:05 <psygnisfive> because they realize that it's not an insult but merely good fun
21:31:13 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes they would - if they found it funny. But your "joke" contained little other content than "Ha ha, tusho's age, ha"
21:31:15 <AnMaster> that and generated code are the only reasons to me
21:31:23 <tusho> which isn't amusing, it's just annoying, as it's been played out for how many months now?
21:31:26 <ais523> the other famous one is jumping out of nested loops
21:31:32 <AnMaster> tusho, I found psygnisfive funny
21:31:36 <ais523> but there's a nice rule of thumb: never use goto to jump backwards
21:31:38 <psygnisfive> you'd notice i was half making fun of anmaster.
21:31:48 <ais523> because all the legit cases involve jumping forwards
21:31:56 <psygnisfive> but you were too caught up in your OMG STOP SAYING IM 13 GUYS UGH shit to see it
21:31:58 <ais523> ofc there are illegit cases involving jumping forwards too
21:31:59 <tusho> psygnisfive: so i should find it funny because i dislike AnMaster and you were making fun of him.
21:32:30 <AnMaster> ais523, in generated code you could jump backwards with it though
21:32:55 <psygnisfive> well whatever tusho. now im just going to use your age against as often as possible since you're such an immature twat
21:33:03 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I avoid nested loops where I have to jump out and try some other design if possible
21:33:06 <ais523> hmm... actually, IIRC C-INTERCAL's generated code never does a backwards goto
21:33:11 <tusho> psygnisfive: i'd say that doing intentionally to annoy me would be a sign of immaturity.
21:33:16 <ais523> although it does do backwards longjmps on occasion
21:33:16 <tusho> do you want to stoop to my level now?
21:33:20 <ais523> they can't really go forwards
21:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, doing forwards longjmp wouldn't be valid
21:33:52 <ais523> well, not forwards in time
21:34:03 <ais523> I suppose you could jump forwards with longjmp inside a loop
21:34:13 <ais523> by getting the destination on the first iteration and jumping on the second
21:34:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure that is allowed
21:34:19 <ais523> but I don't see why that's useful
21:34:22 <ais523> and yes, it is allowed
21:34:48 <chrisdb> Also, currying seems limited. What happens if I want to create a new function by specifying the second argument of another function rather than the first argument? I know there are ways around it, but it becomes longer. I want a short, elegant syntax for deriving a function which takes n-1 arguments from a function which takes n arguments no matter which argument I want to eliminate.
21:35:06 <tusho> it's in an srfi somewhere
21:35:22 <ais523> the restrictions are: setjmp must have been called before longjmp, the function containing setjmp mustn't have returned, and the call to setjmp itself must be on its own, the control expression of a switch, or compared to a constant in the control expression of an if
21:35:30 <ais523> also, auto variables + longjmp = craziness
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21:36:17 <chrisdb> psygnisfive: just in general.
21:36:29 <psygnisfive> if you have the ability to define higher-order functions
21:36:48 <chrisdb> tusho: I really, really, like a lot of the abilities of lisp. It's just the billions of brackets which put me off.
21:37:01 <tusho> chrisdb: lol, are you serious
21:37:14 <psygnisfive> chrisdb: the brackets aren't that much of an issue if you have an editor and you do proper indentation.
21:37:16 <tusho> that's what java programmers say about lisp, not people who have actually done research on it and tried it :)
21:37:46 <psygnisfive> furthermore, any C-like language that's programmed functionally will use the same number of parens.
21:38:03 <chrisdb> And it also seems to lack infix operators. Which makes the bracketing even worse.
21:38:12 <oklofok> there's craziness, people mocking each other, and people actually having a conversation about coding
21:38:28 <psygnisfive> but the operators that replace them are not strictly binary
21:38:28 <chrisdb> Everything has to be a list surrounded by brackets.
21:38:49 <psygnisfive> chrisdb: the same is true of any situation where you have precedence issues, or where you're using functions.
21:39:22 <AnMaster> chrisdb, hm I agree to some extent that S-Expressions are ugly. though I quite like it's syntax anyway
21:39:35 <psygnisfive> get the fuck over it chris, the downsides of the parens are minimal. :P
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21:39:46 <psygnisfive> or, look into some of the alternative versions of lisp that have infix operators.
21:40:11 <ais523> some sort of preprocessed Lisp might be both faster to write and annoy the hell out of sexp fans
21:40:24 <ais523> which is probably enough reason to write the preprocessor by itself
21:40:30 <chrisdb> psygnisfive: I don't really like many C-like languages either. I use them for work sometimes, but counting damn {s and }s is annoying. I prefer languages where block delineators are a bit bigger and easy to count than a little squiggle.
21:40:37 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, now I think you annoyed tusho more than ever
21:40:45 <psygnisfive> chrisdb: why the fuck are you counting {}s?
21:40:47 <ais523> chrisdb: what about Python indentation?
21:41:00 <ais523> I don't like that because indentation gets mangled too easily, with the sort of things I do
21:41:08 <AnMaster> I dislike indention based blocks
21:41:10 <tusho> ais523: then your editor sucks
21:41:19 <ais523> but C isn't too bad with a decent editor because you can reconstruct the indentation from the { and }
21:41:23 <psygnisfive> chrisdb, i think you've got some fucking stupid editing habits there
21:41:25 <ais523> tusho: no, my editors are fine for editing Python
21:41:29 <ais523> it's not editing I'm worried about
21:41:36 <ais523> consider pasting into IRC, for instance
21:41:41 <chrisdb> psygnisfive: you forget one, get a cryptic unhelpful error message from the compiler, and then spend ages trying to figure out where you missed off a }.
21:41:56 <tusho> chrisdb: so use an editor that autobalances them
21:41:58 <ais523> when I programmed bsmnt_bot to do Brainfuck, the entire program was in an eval with \n followed by varying numbers of spaces
21:42:02 <ais523> which was basically impossible to read
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21:42:10 <psygnisfive> chris: or you could just get an editor that does automatic balancing and never worry...
21:42:35 <AnMaster> chrisdb, try emacs, it is good
21:42:49 <AnMaster> chrisdb, or kate, if you want something easier to learn
21:42:55 <ais523> emacs is a bit hard to learn but excellent once you've learnt it
21:42:59 <ais523> and Kate is pretty good all-round
21:43:03 <chrisdb> I have heard emacs is a good OS... I mean text editor.
21:43:08 <psygnisfive> chrisdb: well, i dont know what editors there are for non-macs but find one with paren balancing and highlighting
21:43:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I still use kate a lot
21:43:35 <tusho> AnMaster: i believe you should now be yelling at psygnisfive for being an apple fanboy like you do me (", i dont know what editors there are for non-macs")
21:43:36 <AnMaster> tusho, he said text editor, not headache
21:44:16 <AnMaster> tusho, why? as he acts nicely otherwise I don't see any reason to do that
21:44:25 <psygnisfive> so why should i know of non-mac text editors?
21:44:58 <psygnisfive> maybe when you're older you'll know how to take pot shots at people with more skill.
21:45:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: i don't think you are
21:45:42 <tusho> but AnMaster slings accusations of 'mac fanboy' to me all the time for similar things
21:45:42 <psygnisfive> lets see if we can make tusho commit suicide! :D
21:45:57 <tusho> and I don't see how liking someone less or more makes them more or less of a mac fanboy, do you?
21:46:05 <psygnisfive> again, tusho, you care too much about what other people think.
21:46:38 <tusho> i don't, just pointing out the obvious and glaring hypocrisy :D
21:47:33 <ais523> tusho: actually, everyone I hate is not, as far as I know ,a mac fanboy
21:47:36 <ais523> but then I don't hate many people
21:47:40 <ais523> so that's just coincidence
21:47:48 <chrisdb> I don't understand why someone would take a decent underlying OS and build a UI that looks like it's made of duplo blocks on top of it. :(
21:48:04 <chrisdb> And have a mouse with only one button, but god knows two or three is confusing obviously.
21:48:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | variables are "bound" simply because that's a very easy and explicit way to represent structure.
21:48:15 <AnMaster> chrisdb, that last thing they changed
21:48:23 <AnMaster> iirc modern macs got more than one button
21:48:33 <ais523> fungot: please break up the argument, by any means possible
21:48:33 <fungot> ais523: by the compiler
21:48:36 <psygnisfive> yeah, and its not like you can't use multi-button ice
21:48:38 <AnMaster> chrisdb, don't think their laptops do yet, but their mice have
21:48:45 <ais523> fungot: how will I break up the argument with the compiler?
21:48:45 <fungot> ais523: i'm checking out the sources of scheme48... can you 8d i
21:48:46 <tusho> nobody ever used one button mice, really
21:48:49 <chrisdb> psygnisfive: I mean macs are obviously aimed at the 4 - 8 yo market segment.
21:49:10 <tusho> chrisdb: 'lisp has WAY TOO MANY PARENTHESES' 'macs are for stupid users and only have one button'
21:49:20 <tusho> could you fill any more stereotypical, uninformed blanket criticisms pls
21:49:37 <ais523> tusho: well, you could combine the insults, and have an iLisp which used iParentheses
21:49:49 <tusho> ais523: and is marketed to the 4-8 year old market segment!
21:49:51 <psygnisfive> with its BLUE AND GREEN theme that looks like a tonka toy
21:49:53 <tusho> and only has one parentheses
21:49:59 <psygnisfive> yes, Mac OS X is definitely aimed at children.
21:50:11 <chrisdb> psygnisfive: Windows XP is as bad. Because they were trying to copy the Mac look... and almost succeeded.
21:50:14 <ais523> tusho: but then you'd end up with Unlambda Junior
21:50:27 <psygnisfive> they made something that looks NOTHING like OS X
21:50:43 <tusho> I like the part where chrisdb says something without basis to 'prove' his stereotypical, uninformed insult!
21:50:48 <psygnisfive> the only very colorful thing about OS X is the default window button colors
21:51:19 <chrisdb> Windows is crap, but there's some software that won't run on anything else.
21:51:26 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what about the "aqua" look in 10.0 or so?
21:51:28 <tusho> How do I shot virtualbox
21:51:39 <psygnisfive> the aqua look? you mean the horizontal bars?
21:51:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, blue buttons in 10.0
21:51:49 <tusho> ais523: 'how do I shot X' meme
21:51:57 <tusho> originally spiderman saying 'how do i shot web'
21:52:02 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, haven't you even seen OS X 10.0
21:52:13 <tusho> os x 10.0 is hilariously awful
21:52:19 <tusho> but 10.3 onwards is fine...
21:52:23 <psygnisfive> i thought the window controls were always red yellow and onward
21:52:30 <ais523> isn't OS X 10.0 redundant?
21:52:36 <ais523> surely it should just be OS 10.0?
21:52:45 <tusho> ais523: not really
21:52:56 <tusho> OS X is a brand...
21:52:59 <tusho> and so is the 10.x versions
21:53:13 <tusho> Mac OS X v10.major_number_that_actually_changes
21:53:15 <tusho> quite silly, really
21:53:21 <AnMaster> ais523, ah no, I think the X is like NT, meaning "we changed the whole thing and made it not crash when one program crashes"
21:53:26 * ais523 understands computers, but doesn't really understand computer marketing people, no matter what it is they're marketing
21:53:41 <tusho> psygnisfive: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Macosxpb.png
21:53:49 <tusho> warning: will make you puke with hilarity
21:53:59 <tusho> the public beta had the APPLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MENU BAR
21:54:01 <psygnisfive> tusho: ok.. what about it? the only annoying thing is the horizontal bars
21:54:05 <tusho> that makes no sense at all
21:54:22 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah was that menu clickable?
21:54:34 <ais523> tusho: it lets you open two programs at once, and use the menu for both of them
21:54:37 <psygnisfive> raskin wasn't working there anymore, what do you expect :P
21:54:54 <ais523> it's a capability that Windows has and Mac OS X doesn't have, mostly for the reason that it isn't actually useful
21:54:55 <AnMaster> tusho, then it must have been uggly when menus didn't fit in
21:55:05 <tusho> AnMaster: that was in the public beta...
21:55:08 <tusho> before retail release
21:55:13 <psygnisfive> ais: windows most certainly DOESNT have that ability
21:55:19 <tusho> "mac os x programs" was a funny joke
21:55:21 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed, and OS 9 had the apple in the same place they have now
21:56:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's a capability that Windows has and Mac OS X doesn't have, mostly for the reason that it isn't actually useful <-- yes so does linux, depending on settings
21:56:22 <tusho> 'linux' has no gui, it's meaningless
21:56:27 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, especially in KDE you can choose how the menus work
21:56:29 <tusho> you mean 'yes so does KDE' or 'yes so does Gnome'
21:56:35 <ais523> and no, 'Linux' doesn't by itself have a UI
21:56:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, he means menus local to the window instead of at the top of the screen
21:56:55 <ais523> but people talking about a "Linux GUI" generally are referring to either KDE or Gnome
21:56:58 <GregorR> Linux by itself doesn't have a TUI :P
21:56:59 <AnMaster> chrisdb, I couldn't agree more
21:57:02 <psygnisfive> but you cant click on two menu bars at once in ANY situation
21:57:05 <ais523> because people who use something else are unlikely to make that mistake
21:57:09 <tusho> chrisdb: how is os x more childish than KDE :|
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21:57:20 <pikhq> Of course KDE > Gnome.
21:57:24 <AnMaster> tusho, depends on what version you compare
21:57:24 <pikhq> After all, K > G. :p
21:57:25 <tusho> chrisdb: plz say how http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Leopard_Desktop.png is more childish than kde
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21:57:33 <ais523> you can connect to a serial port and send magic SysRq over the serial connection
21:57:35 <AnMaster> tusho, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Macosxpb.png is more childish than anything
21:57:46 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but that's irrelevant nowadays
21:57:47 <tusho> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Leopard_Desktop.png
21:58:02 <chrisdb> I ought to try 4.1. They say that they've ironed out a lot of the problems with Plasma.
21:58:09 <chrisdb> I want to know if it is any good or not.
21:58:11 <tusho> chrisdb: justify how http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Leopard_Desktop.png is more childish than kde
21:58:21 <AnMaster> tusho, 3D look and transparent menu bar, I hope you can turn those off?
21:58:27 <tusho> AnMaster: 3d look of the dock: yes
21:58:29 <tusho> transparent menu bar: no
21:58:31 <GregorR> OS X does its best to act like a toy in every regard. Useless 3D effects, things bouncing and "genie"ing about, nice and flashy for a two-year-old but I want a fucking OPERATING SYSTEM, not a toy.
21:58:39 <psygnisfive> turning off the transparent menu bar is trivial
21:58:50 <tusho> GregorR: useless 3d effects, genieing about?
21:58:53 <tusho> have you ever used an os x system
21:59:05 <pikhq> GregorR: OS X does two different things: it tries to be easily usable and it tries to be a toy.
21:59:05 <GregorR> tusho: You can disable /many/ effects.
21:59:07 <ais523> not all 3D effects are useless
21:59:08 <chrisdb> tusho: pretty HUGE icons which pop up where you hover over them, special effects all over the place, wobbling windows...
21:59:09 <ais523> some of them are, though
21:59:14 <pikhq> Unfortunately, the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.
21:59:19 <chrisdb> it's all eye candy for five year olds.
21:59:25 <ais523> also, I like the wobbly windows in Compiz, although my brother doesn't
21:59:50 <psygnisfive> so chrisdb, do you have any arguments that AREN'T strawmen?
21:59:50 <AnMaster> http://gentoo-wiki.com/images/d/df/AnMaster_KDE20080112.png
21:59:54 <ais523> I use Gnome because it gives me a nice simple UI for when I don't want to think, and I'm more used to doing complicated stuff over the command line so don't care what the desktop environment is then
22:00:03 <GregorR> I'll totally destroy my case by saying that I would /love/ a UI for X11 that resembled Windows 3.11.
22:00:06 <pikhq> GregorR: Compiz has a ton of stuff that's rather useless, for example.
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22:00:12 <tusho> GregorR: twm is close
22:00:16 <pikhq> Also, I wouldn't want that.
22:00:23 <GregorR> tusho: Yeah, but it has annoying focus properties.
22:00:26 <ais523> GregorR: also I've used CDE, that's pretty like Windows 3.11
22:00:28 <tusho> GregorR: Patch it.
22:00:30 <psygnisfive> anmaster: mac os doesnt have lots of 3D stuff. :P
22:00:33 <ais523> but it loads to shell by default, IIRC
22:00:35 <pikhq> My preferred UI tends to range from KDE to Ratpoison, depending upon my mood.
22:00:49 <GregorR> TOO MANY PEOPLE TALKING CAN'T KEEP UP *gives up*
22:00:49 <psygnisfive> well, unless you count time machine but thats useless anyway.
22:00:53 <chrisdb> I like KDE because it offers options and configurability instead of catering to the lowest common denominator.
22:01:00 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, windows that are like a genie in a bottle?
22:01:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I used OS X, I seen it
22:01:13 <chrisdb> And because KDE media frameworks etc tend to work well.
22:01:16 <tusho> AnMaster: that's just the minimize effect
22:01:24 <GregorR> psygnisfive: You can change it from genie to scale, but not /off/.
22:01:24 <tusho> and i rarely ever minimize
22:01:26 <chrisdb> Whereas the Gnome ones are generally just about adequate.
22:01:26 <ais523> chrisdb: I like Gnome because if I'm going to do complicated options and configurability I'm unlikely to use my desktop environment for it anyway
22:01:29 <GregorR> psygnisfive: The effect is unremovable.
22:01:36 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, oh and you can't easily change font size with built in settings, sure you could edit some *.plist file
22:01:43 <AnMaster> or use some freeware tool that allows it
22:01:53 <AnMaster> doesn't allow a lot of settings
22:01:53 <GregorR> psygnisfive: That option must be pretty damn well hidden because I've never managed to turn off all the stupid effects X_X
22:01:59 <AnMaster> in fact gnome allows *more* settings
22:02:12 <chrisdb> but no-one's ever going to write software that takes advantage of its libraries.
22:02:17 <pikhq> And Gnome gets criticised for not *having* settings.
22:02:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, I say OS X is worse than Gnome
22:02:33 <pikhq> ais523: Enlightenment v. 17.
22:02:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: And I agree.
22:02:46 <psygnisfive> actually, no, gregor, you're right, you cant turn it off.
22:02:52 <ais523> anyway, Gnome vs. KDE is one of those arguments that never goes away
22:02:55 <ais523> and I'm glad both exist
22:03:03 <psygnisfive> thats what i get for never actually minimizing windows ;D
22:03:05 <pikhq> Well, actually, OS X *looks* a bit better out of the box...
22:03:13 <ais523> (n.b. although I use Gnome as the window manager and GDM, I tend to use KDE applications)
22:03:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, agreed, if you like eye candy
22:03:18 <GregorR> AXIOM A: Linus prefers KDE to gnome. AXIOM B: Linus Torvalds is incapable of wrong. CONCLUSION: KDE is better than Gnome.
22:03:19 <tusho> i kind of hate how people give 10 points about os x, 9 of them are debunked, and then even with only 1 point they consider that to be evidence that os x sucks
22:03:21 <pikhq> Which is good, since it's hard to change how it looks. :p
22:03:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://gentoo-wiki.com/images/d/df/AnMaster_KDE20080112.png
22:03:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's a decent KDE setup.
22:03:40 <ais523> tusho: actually all operating systems suck
22:03:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, thanks, and no eye candy
22:03:56 <pikhq> I've got mine somewhat similar...
22:03:56 <ais523> you pick the one whose type of suckiness interferes least with what you want to do
22:03:57 <tusho> but it's only relevant to talk about relative suckitude
22:04:03 <pikhq> Except I use Plastik and the default icons...
22:04:11 <chrisdb> One thing people don't use to advocate Linux enough: installing software is truly easy. Point your tool of choice at an online repository, tell it what you want, and let it sort out all the dependencies for you automatically.
22:04:14 <pikhq> And full-screen windows.
22:04:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, can't stand that, I use kdeclassic
22:04:18 <ais523> so in my case I mostly don't care about Linux being bad at running Windows applications and Gnome being hard to configure
22:04:21 <chrisdb> It's hard if you don't have fast internet access..
22:04:33 <chrisdb> but otherwise it's easier than other systems, not harder.
22:04:37 <pikhq> I prefer Plastik, of course, but KDEclassic is a fine theme.
22:04:38 <ais523> and I solved the hardware compatibility problems by buying a laptop designed to work with Linux
22:04:42 <AnMaster> <chrisdb> One thing people don't use to advocate Linux enough: installing software is truly easy. Point your tool of choice at an online repository, tell it what you want, and let it sort out all the dependencies for you automatically. <-- yep
22:04:46 <GregorR> http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/54708-2.png // my KDE look
22:04:56 <psygnisfive> nevermind that knowing all this crap about repositories is NOT intuitive
22:04:59 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it works very well on both Gentoo and Arch
22:05:13 <tusho> PROPOSING A TRUCE: We all shut the fuck up about operating systems because we have never convinced one person and all we do is fling shit at other people without achieving anything.
22:05:16 <ais523> given that the Ubuntu repos contain two different INTERCAL implementations, I assume they're pretty complete
22:05:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, never used ubuntu
22:05:21 <ais523> AnMaster: on repos being important
22:05:23 <chrisdb> psygnisfive: yes it is. What's hard about the idea of telling a tool where to look for software and what the name is of the software you want?
22:05:24 <pikhq> Now, my *Ratpoison* setup is quite different from everything else seen here.
22:05:30 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, how do you uninstall a *.pkg on OS X
22:05:32 <pikhq> Full-screen terminal.
22:05:34 <tusho> PROPOSING A TRUCE: We all shut the fuck up about operating systems because we have never convinced one person and all we do is fling shit at other people without achieving anything.
22:05:36 <pikhq> And, well, not much else.
22:05:39 <GregorR> psygnisfive: http://oblisk.codu.org/
22:05:45 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, not just delete the app, since it installed stuff in /System/Library/
22:06:04 <psygnisfive> well, thats a problem of the app being ridiculous then
22:06:10 <chrisdb> psygnisfive: how is rpm any different from a .msi on windows?
22:06:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I'm sure it is ridiculous yeah
22:06:22 <tusho> I like the part where everyone decided that they prefer flinging shit to actually talking about relevant stuff!
22:06:24 <chrisdb> Apart from the dependencies thing?
22:06:29 <pikhq> GregorR: You have an LCARS theme? :)
22:06:32 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it was apple's own xcode.
22:06:38 <chrisdb> You just basically have files and locations to automatically put them.
22:06:45 <ais523> tusho: well, talk about something relevant then
22:06:52 <ais523> for instance, Keymaker's come up with a new language
22:06:56 <ais523> which is very tarpitty
22:06:58 <psygnisfive> AppZapper, anmaster. it should be built into Mac OS but its not
22:06:59 <tusho> ais523: I would if it weren't for the GIANT FLOOD OF PEOPLE YELLING ABOUT OPERATING SYTSEMS
22:07:00 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, even windows got better uninstall than OS X
22:07:09 <tusho> which makes it POINTLESS
22:07:18 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Figurehead
22:07:28 <tusho> EVERYBODY SHUT UP K THX BAI
22:07:30 <psygnisfive> i never really uninstall stuff tho so im not familiar with how to do it :p
22:07:32 <chrisdb> The windows registry sucks. Uninstalling a program should be as simple as deleting the directory containing it in most cases.
22:07:38 <tusho> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
22:07:42 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, while I never had linux package manager fail to uninstall stuff
22:07:45 <chrisdb> Settings stored centrally is a crappy idea.
22:07:53 <tusho> hi, some of us would like to TALK ABOUT ESOLANGS
22:07:57 <tusho> I am reading figurehead now, seems interesting
22:08:05 <ais523> AnMaster: I did, once, but that's due to deliberately running the version of the Ubuntu repos which break at random now and again
22:08:07 <psygnisfive> anmaster: i ahree. apple needs to fix its uninstall utilities.
22:08:12 <ais523> and I figured out what had gone wrong and fixed it by hand
22:08:18 <ais523> tusho: yes, figurehead is interesting AFAICT
22:08:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well I used many OS but never ubuntu
22:08:29 <ais523> but I'm not entirely sure how different it is from a Minsky machine
22:08:39 <tusho> ais523: i'd discuss how interesting it is ... if it weren't for everyone getting nowhere with a stupid conversation about OSs! :D
22:08:40 <ais523> AnMaster: it's just Debian with different defaults
22:08:53 <AnMaster> ais523, hardly used debian very much either
22:09:32 <AnMaster> ais523, and it was ages ago I used something *.rpm, Red Hat-pre-fedora, maybe 7.0 or so
22:09:54 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well on linux you get it with the OS :P
22:10:09 <ais523> AnMaster: so you don't really use binary packages much at all?
22:10:13 <psygnisfive> you get the uninstaller free with the OS, yes, i know
22:10:19 <chrisdb> AnMaster: On Linux you get *everything* with the OS. Including the kitchen sink.
22:10:21 <ais523> which format are those in?
22:10:30 <psygnisfive> apple has a lot of problems with how it does things, unfortunately.
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22:10:41 <chrisdb> I like it, but... you do get a shitload of stuff you never use if you select a default install for most distros.
22:10:47 <ais523> $ apt-cache search kitchen sink
22:10:47 <ais523> xemacs21-basesupport - Editor and kitchen sink -- compiled elisp support files
22:10:52 <tusho> dsfhkudsklfabhjkafkdjsdafhksjlfehkuwlhiuafwhioadfshiuafhiufwfwqdwjdhjdjhbhjbxakhjsadkjqwrjkhqwkhjqwehjkqewjkhhjkqerwhjkl qwehrjkeqwjkrkehjajahkrwhjkewr
22:10:55 <AnMaster> ais523, PKGBUILD to construct packages, actual packages are *i686.pkg.tgz iirc
22:11:38 <AnMaster> ais523, and the PKGBUILD files are bash on turbo basically
22:11:39 <ais523> anyway, I think I'll just stick with my .pax.{lzma|bz2|gz} format I'm using for C-INTERCAL
22:12:02 <ais523> because it confuses people, yet works anyway
22:12:32 <AnMaster> ais523, sure that is source code format
22:12:50 <ais523> by the way, how many people here use cpio?
22:13:00 <ais523> tar v. cpio is supposed to be one of the big Holy Wars in Unixen
22:13:05 <ais523> but I seem to have missed it completely
22:13:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I did use it once to extract the files from a *.rpm iirc
22:13:21 <ais523> maybe it ended before I got used to Linux?
22:13:27 <ais523> or maybe it's just raging somewhere I don't know?
22:13:48 <AnMaster> thought cpio was simply an old format
22:13:58 <ais523> apparently pax was invented in an attempt to end the war
22:14:57 <tusho> Meanwhile, http://tusho.net/ is the first XHTML5+RDFa page ever, especially because that hasn't actually ben specced yet.
22:15:44 <chrisdb> Does Lua have operator overloading?
22:16:22 <ais523> tusho: well, it works in Konq atm
22:16:28 <tusho> ais523: of course, it should
22:16:38 <tusho> view the source, it's just xhtml5+extra properties and shit that define RDF stuff
22:16:42 <tusho> AnMaster: html5 serialised as XML, basically
22:16:49 <tusho> html5 is defined in the abstract
22:16:54 <tusho> then html and xml serializations are defined
22:16:57 <ais523> tusho: hmm... there should actually be a page that's written in Turing-complete XSLT
22:17:05 <tusho> i use xhtml5 so that i can import fancy namespaces
22:17:31 <ais523> actually, I was aware that there was an XML version of HTML5
22:17:37 <ais523> don't think I've ever seen anyone use it before, though
22:17:51 <tusho> intertwingly.net, iirc
22:17:53 <AnMaster> tusho, don't you need a <!DOCTYPE html>?
22:18:02 <ais523> AnMaster: that's for the HTML serialisation
22:18:06 <tusho> that doctype is only to force standards-compliant mode for text/html
22:18:15 <tusho> whereas xml mime-types are treated as strict by all browsrs today
22:18:23 <tusho> psygnisfive: XHTML5+RDFa, actually.
22:18:31 <AnMaster> tusho, except IE offers a download dialog iirc
22:18:41 <tusho> and people are starting to drop support for IE6
22:18:43 <ais523> hmm... are there any XSLT interps in XSLT lying around, I wonder?
22:19:01 <ais523> also, /me tries to guess who wrote the topic
22:19:33 <ais523> I've actually seen some people who were still using Windows 2000
22:19:55 <tusho> ais523: it was oklofok
22:20:08 <tusho> anyway - XHTML1+RDFa is specified, and XHTML5 is specified, and there's not anything in XHTML5 that would change the way you apply +RDFa
22:20:09 <ais523> wow, I think I'm beating 50% at this now
22:20:10 <tusho> so I just did that
22:20:16 <ais523> not bad given how many people are here in the channel
22:20:20 <tusho> essentially I wrote an XHTML1+RDFa document but with HTML5 tags
22:20:23 <tusho> which is, er, what it'd be
22:22:58 <ais523> presumably a standard XML validator would work
22:23:08 <tusho> AnMaster: http://validator.nu/ will validate the XHTML5 part
22:23:12 <tusho> but give errors for the RDFa part, obviously
22:23:21 <tusho> http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ might validate the rdf parts, not sure
22:23:27 <ais523> XML is pretty trivial to validate, that's one of its goals in existance I think
22:23:52 <tusho> nah, http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ doesn't validate it because you don't use actual rdf elements directly
22:24:03 <tusho> <foaf:name>foo</foaf:name> becomes something like <h1 property="foaf:name">foo</h1>
22:24:12 <tusho> which is reasonable - it's for xhtml documents decorated with rdf semanticity
22:24:21 <chrisdb> Bah humbug. Good old HTML 4.01 Transitional was good enough in 1999, and it's good enough now.
22:24:42 <tusho> chrisdb: i'm interested in ai, and the semantic web is an interesting step to things like that
22:24:51 <tusho> plus i've always been a fan of metadata
22:25:12 <ais523> some day I must get round to writing that program that extracts command-line options for ick from a file's last-modified date
22:25:54 <chrisdb> I had an interest in AI, but the more I read the more depressed I got about the limited accomplishments in that area. That's not to say that putting the intelligence into AI is impossible, of course, but I'm not sure I know how to do it.
22:26:26 <ais523> AnMaster: I proposed it in a.l.i, they said I was mad
22:26:38 <tusho> chrisdb: well, I'm also interested in sort-of-AI
22:26:40 <ais523> and when a.l.i say you're mad you know you're onto a good idea
22:26:58 <tusho> the semantic web is a huge web of relationships in a mesh of human-and-machine readable info & data
22:27:16 <tusho> timbl supports it heavily, and i think it has quite some potential
22:27:23 <tusho> also it's not a fad, started in like 2000 and has been going slowly but steadily since
22:27:33 <tusho> i'm fine having my humble little homepage be a tiny, tiny part of it
22:27:36 <AnMaster> ais523, got copies of the thread?
22:27:46 <tusho> AnMaster: google groups yo
22:27:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it's still on Google Groups IIRC
22:28:21 <chrisdb> tusho: I think it does have some potential. The main problem with AI reasoning systems (apart from their poor handling of ambiguity and uncertainty sometimes) if their lack of a massive amount of basic knowledge that human beings take for granted.
22:28:21 <ais523> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/5a0696843eeeb5b6#
22:28:36 <tusho> chrisdb: yes, i like to think about stuff like that but it's not why i like the semantic web
22:28:45 <tusho> which is founded on more practical concerns, really
22:29:20 <AnMaster> ais523, "Perl's method of doing this, in particular, is delightfully twisted, so INTERCAL has to come up with something weirder. " <-- hm?
22:29:26 <ais523> <ais523> (and posting here to ask whether it's a good idea and whether I should do it, which in INTERCAL aren't necessarily correlated)
22:29:39 <ais523> AnMaster: try writing #!/bin/cat and running it as Perl some time
22:30:33 <ais523> if Perl sees a #! line mentioning an application other than Perl, it execs that application rather than running normally
22:30:44 <AnMaster> ais523, that is strange, the OS should do that
22:30:48 <ais523> thus #!/bin/cat causes Perl to exec cat, thus outputting a copy of the source
22:30:56 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, the OS does do that if the file's marked executable
22:30:57 <chrisdb> The nastiest thing about Perl is its lack of support for proper named function arguments . You have to pop them off @_ don't you?
22:31:09 <ais523> but Perl does that if the file's run deliberately with Perl
22:31:21 <ais523> chrisdb: yes, but there's an idiom which pretty much makes it like K&R C
22:31:35 <tusho> ais523: because K&R C is totally awesome
22:31:39 <AnMaster> I think prototypes are a good thing(TM)
22:32:03 <ais523> #perl (or is it ##perl?) tells people not to use them because their semantics are confusing
22:32:03 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? why don't ppl use it then?
22:32:18 <ais523> AnMaster: partly because they don't give you named arguments
22:32:23 <ais523> they change the syntax of the language instead
22:33:00 <chrisdb> Does Perl let you return multiple values from a function? Like an inverse @_?
22:33:11 <GregorR> You can return an array *shrugs*
22:33:31 <chrisdb> I meant without the packing. Something like Matlab's multiple return values.
22:33:50 <chrisdb> [A B] = SomeFunction(C,D,E)
22:34:04 <ais523> sub test {1;}; test / 4; # /;
22:34:12 <ais523> sub test ($) {1;}; test / 4; # /;
22:34:20 <ais523> two legal Perl programs
22:34:23 <ais523> the first one returns 1
22:34:45 <tusho> the second returns 1/4
22:34:46 <ais523> the first one returns 1, and the second returns 1/4
22:35:07 <ais523> also, the second one ends in a comment but the first one doesn't
22:35:21 <ais523> (this is the point where people normally go wtf)
22:35:47 <chrisdb> Meh, we've all seen perl line noise programs, it takes more than that to shock.
22:35:53 <tusho> / ... / is treated as a regexp argument in the first one
22:35:55 <ais523> chrisdb: this isn't about line noise
22:36:01 <ais523> that program is pretty readable
22:36:03 <tusho> the second program needs 'sub test()"
22:36:17 <tusho> hahahahahahahah i fixed ais523's crazy perl's error
22:36:18 <ais523> sub test {1;}; test / 4; # /;
22:36:21 <ais523> sub test () {1;}; test / 4; # /;
22:36:29 <AnMaster> <chrisdb> [A B] = SomeFunction(C,D,E) <-- you mean a tuple?
22:36:40 <chrisdb> First place, Best 'The Perl Journal', 1 st Annual Obfuscated Perl Contest: Joe Futrelle.
22:36:48 <chrisdb> ;while(<SZzBN3>){/\s\((.*p\))&/
22:36:49 <chrisdb> &&(@S2zBN3=unpack$age,$1)}foreach
22:36:54 <chrisdb> 30){$_=<SZz8N3>}/^(.)/|print $1
22:36:56 <chrisdb> ;$S2z8M3=0}s/.*//|print}sub w1HC{$age=c17
22:36:57 <chrisdb> ;socket(SZz8N3,PF_INET,SOCK_STREAM,getprotobyname('tcp'))&&
22:36:59 <chrisdb> connect(SZz8N3,sockaddr_in(023,"\022\x17\x\cv"))
22:37:01 <tusho> chrisdb: Oh, you flood too!
22:37:12 <AnMaster> chrisdb, please use a pastebin for that long pastes in the future
22:37:14 * ais523 wonders why the S2zBN3
22:37:16 <tusho> Also, that is totally not obfuscated.
22:37:18 <ais523> probably it's really significant
22:37:27 <tusho> ais523: because silly names make things reallllllllly complex...
22:37:34 <tusho> most obfuscation is based on trivial stuff liek that
22:37:45 <ais523> and tusho: no, but it would cause utter chaos if someone messed around with the S2zBN3 typeglob, as all the variables in the program have the same name...
22:38:14 <ais523> also, typeglobs are sufficiently esoteric that i have trouble just thinking about htem
22:38:53 <ais523> AnMaster: basically a typeglob is a sort of metavariable that holds all the variables with a given name
22:39:22 <ais523> so *S2zBN3 refers to a scalar, array, hash, filehandle, and typeglob, each of which is called S2zBN3
22:39:36 <ais523> normally you ignore them, but you can cause utter chaos by assinging to them
22:39:39 <tusho> (i.e. @S2zBN3, $S2zBN3)
22:39:45 <chrisdb> AnMaster: Matlab has special syntax for returning multiple arguments (the [] syntax). Apart from in this use, sticking multiple variables between square brackets will usually attempt to cat them to form a single matrix (which would fail unless their dimensions were compatible).
22:39:50 <ais523> e.g. IIRC if you do *foo = *bar, then $foo will actually mean $bar
22:39:55 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean several variables can have same name, as long as their types are different?
22:40:12 <AnMaster> chrisdb, but isn't that really like tuples?
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22:40:15 <ais523> actually quite a lot of sigil-using languages do taht
22:40:25 <tusho> the variable is called $foo, not foo
22:40:28 <tusho> that's the sane way to think about it
22:40:58 <chrisdb> AnMaster: I guess so, except it's limited to returning arguments and not found elsewhere.
22:41:57 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:43:17 <ais523> tusho: no, the sane way to think about it is "scalar called foo"
22:43:32 <ais523> for instance, the array called foo can be referred to either as $foo or @foo depending on context
22:43:52 <ais523> both refer to the array foo
22:44:01 <ais523> the sigil doesn't depend on the type of the variable
22:44:08 <chrisdb> Why isn't it @foo[1]. Does that do something else?
22:44:10 <ais523> but on the type of the expression you're extracting from the variable
22:44:14 <chrisdb> Or is it just a pointless alternation?
22:44:28 <ais523> chrisdb: yes, it gives you a 1-element array that's a slice of the array foo on its first element
22:44:36 <ais523> an expression that starts with @ always returns an array
22:44:46 <ais523> anyway, apparently they're 'fixing' this weirdness for Perl6
22:45:04 <tusho> the fix is more confusing
22:45:12 <tusho> it removes all the consistency
22:45:22 <ais523> well at least it gives variables consistent names
22:45:31 <ais523> but makes contexts even harder to figure out in one's head
22:46:32 <chrisdb> A couple of years ago I thought Perl 6 sounded fairly interesting.. a slightly saner version of Perl.
22:46:50 <chrisdb> Now I've gotten tired of waiting for it and all my interest has drained away.
22:47:09 <ais523> imagine C where every { } was in fact a lambda that took no arguments
22:47:20 <ais523> oh and functions were first-class
22:47:56 <pikhq> That part sounds like Plof.
22:48:24 <ais523> also, Perl6 regexen are powerful enough to write parsers with
22:48:33 <ais523> which automatically deduce a lexer from the syntax of the language
22:48:35 <chrisdb> ais523: I meant saner in the syntax and presentation. It has proper named arguments to functions and other basic things which will make the code look a bit cleaner.
22:50:00 <AnMaster> perl6 is like GNU Hurd, we can go on and wait for as long as we like
22:50:13 <chrisdb> And the {} thing doesn't sound that insane. Reducing a language to as few basic principles as possible can sometimes be helpful.
22:50:18 <chrisdb> Isn't that why people like Lisp?
22:50:35 <chrisdb> Underneath all the complexity is a few basic principles and a lot of Lisp code.
22:50:37 <tusho> AnMaster: i disagree, perl 6 has a kind of better schedule
22:50:44 <tusho> it IS being worked on, slowly, but progress IS being mae
22:50:48 <tusho> whereas the hurd...is just dead
22:51:04 <chrisdb> Is the Hurd dead? Or are a few people still working on it?
22:51:09 <AnMaster> tusho, ah but hurd back around the time linux was first invented
22:51:10 <tusho> i believe duke nukem forever will be released sometime in my lifetime...
22:51:18 <tusho> AnMaster: perl 6 has been going for ages, though
22:51:21 <tusho> and died for a bit
22:51:26 <tusho> and then never got back up again
22:51:28 <chrisdb> I could never imagine the design being fast though.
22:51:28 <tusho> because nobody cared
22:51:50 <tusho> Observation: A bright purple colour that is not pink is a hard thing.
22:52:05 <ais523> tusho: make it a bluish magenta
22:52:08 <ais523> but as bright as possible
22:52:22 <ais523> let's think... #CC00FF
22:52:23 <chrisdb> Poor Richard Stallman, with his insistence on calling it GNU/Linux or whatever.
22:52:40 <ais523> chrisdb: I've used Linux systems which had no GNU software on
22:52:59 <pikhq> ais523: Such systems, of course, shouldn't be referred to as GNU/Linux.
22:53:24 * pikhq wonders how many people use Busybox/ucLibc systems, though.
22:53:33 <ais523> mine was Busybox/uclibc/Linux
22:53:35 <tusho> ais523: that is pink :P
22:53:57 <tusho> i mean bright as in light
22:54:03 <tusho> as in ... er, more white
22:54:17 <ais523> tusho: that is so not pink
22:54:20 <tusho> and turning up the saturation on #CC00FF totally gives you pink
22:54:34 <ais523> tusho: and yes, that's a maximally saturated colour in its colour group
22:54:40 <ais523> as it has both a 00 and an FF in
22:54:48 <chrisdb> I read the webpage of a guy who'd stripped down a Linux system so that all it did was load emacs after it booted once.
22:54:59 <ais523> so you can't saturate it more without making it a different colour
22:55:39 <tusho> ais523: so i stand by what i said - a whiteish (you could put black text on it) purple is very hard
22:56:22 <AnMaster> ais523, you could, in a wider colour space
22:56:36 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but you'd need a better screen
22:56:56 <ais523> anyway, I rather like what CC00FF does on an LCD screen
22:57:01 <ais523> from below it's bright purple
22:57:11 <ais523> looking from slightly above it becomes a reddish purple
22:57:16 <AnMaster> ais523, mine got very wide "viewing angle"
22:57:24 <ais523> then as I move up it becomes a bluish purple
22:57:28 <ais523> and then a greyish orange
22:57:53 <oklofok> you can look at my laptop's screen from any direction
22:57:53 <tusho> my lcd seems to have an infinite "viewing angle"
22:57:54 <ais523> tusho: that isn't pink
22:58:00 <ais523> and yes, I tested on a web-browser
22:58:02 <tusho> but looking at this one from any angle works fine
22:58:07 <ais523> using a Javascript: URL to fill the screen with colour
22:58:12 <oklofok> yarr my so called "viewing angle" is infiniteous too
22:58:13 <ais523> as I couldn't remember how to do it with data:
22:58:21 <ais523> this screen's viewing angle stuff is rubbish
22:58:31 <tusho> ais523: data:text/html,<html bgcolor=#...>
22:58:48 <ais523> except html body bgcolor=
22:58:50 <AnMaster> <tusho> but looking at this one from any angle works fine <-- does it have blank screen?
22:59:03 <ais523> tusho: I couldn't remember how you specified the encoding
22:59:06 <ais523> but it looked like you didn't
22:59:09 <tusho> maybe that has something to do with it
22:59:10 <AnMaster> tusho, those with blank seem to have a huge viewing angle
22:59:17 <tusho> ais523: that's just data:text/html;base64,...
22:59:18 <tusho> AnMaster: define blank
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22:59:44 <tusho> had a tiny viewing range
22:59:50 <AnMaster> tusho, err blank is wrong English word I bet
22:59:51 <tusho> so uh, i'd say that mattes have larger range :|
23:00:05 <tusho> but yes, I previously had a glossy LCD: tiny range
23:00:10 <tusho> this matte one: infinite range, it seems
23:02:04 <tusho> ais523: anyway, it's not pink
23:02:09 <tusho> but it's not just a lighter version of a dark purple
23:02:35 <ais523> tusho: colour bands are skewed between computer perception and human perception
23:02:50 <ais523> so it's possible some colours expressible in English don't even exist in RL
23:03:04 <tusho> which is unfortunate
23:03:07 <tusho> as i can picture it in my head
23:05:08 * tusho goes all out to make his XHTML5+RDFa page look flashy as it doesn't really matter if it's form over function because it's just my little web identity card and it's only one entry page
23:05:24 <ais523> anyway, I imagine the best way to do it would be to take a violet or indigo wavelength
23:05:34 <ais523> and just make it really really bright by shining a lot of photons at once
23:05:40 <ais523> to create the RL colour
23:05:53 <ais523> although that would hurt your eyes and you couldn't get a computer to do that
23:06:09 <tusho> CONCLUSION: Fuck computers.
23:06:30 <ais523> tusho: unfortunately Japanese sex robots aren't yet sufficiently advanced to make that feasible
23:07:10 <ais523> but it'll probably be all over the news when it happens
23:13:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I love your "just-in-case compiler" in http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/9e9ad7d6875e9582#
23:14:05 <ais523> yes, it's an interesting strategy, CLC-INTERCAL had a just-too-late compiler so I needed to think up a snazzy name for mine
23:14:37 <AnMaster> ais523, "just-too-late" means?
23:15:04 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL works by not compiling the program originally and just running it and getting an error. Then it compiles the bit of the code that caused the error and tries running again
23:15:11 <ais523> until eventually the whole program is compiled
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23:15:20 <ais523> it's a bit like JIT compilation, just stupider
23:16:06 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you say it compiled to some byte code that was then interpreted by perl?
23:16:08 <ais523> still, INTERCAL needs /some/ way around the fact that syntax errors are legal in a program
23:16:15 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's CLC-INTERCAL
23:16:27 <ais523> the bytecode for the compiler is mixed in with the bytecode for the program as far as I can tell
23:16:31 <ais523> and the program compiles itself as it's run
23:16:37 <ais523> from inside the bytecode
23:16:54 <ais523> I think it has to be done like that as the compiler can be dynamically modified from inside the program
23:19:07 <tusho> is an intercal interp possible
23:20:59 <ais523> probably easier than in intercal compiler, tbh
23:21:19 <ais523> as long as you can easily keep track of where statements begin and end, which is not trivial especially if it changes
23:21:28 <ais523> (it would be easy except that READOUT contains the substring "DO")
23:21:34 <tusho> COMPILER language with no pronouncable acronym
23:21:58 <ais523> well, I think all known implementations of it are compilers
23:22:05 <AnMaster> ais523, once you finish gcc-bf what about gcc-intercal?
23:22:11 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL is sort of, C-INTERCAL definitely is, and J-INTERCAL compiles into Java bytecode
23:22:17 <tusho> AnMaster: gee, that's only the 5th time you've asked him that
23:22:30 <ais523> AnMaster: I've been thinking about it, especially as I was horrified to realise that ABSTAIN is expressible to some extent in gcc
23:22:34 <ais523> tusho: no, that's the first time
23:22:42 <ais523> presumably you get so used to the questions you don't actually read them...
23:22:53 <tusho> i'm sure he's asked something similar, at least
23:23:04 <AnMaster> ais523, how can you do ABSTAIN in gcc?
23:23:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it has a feature called conditional execution
23:23:22 <ais523> at the backend, not frontend
23:23:37 <ais523> which basically tells gcc that the target CPU has an instruction that causes it to ignore instructions for a while
23:23:58 <ais523> if is a goto forwards based on some condition
23:24:05 <ais523> whereas conditional execution blanks out commands
23:24:09 <ais523> the timing rules are completely different
23:24:15 <AnMaster> ais523, jump relative program counter?
23:24:36 <ais523> for instance on the PIC16F84, a bit-test instruction temporarily causes the next instruction to be a NOP if it fails
23:24:49 <ais523> the timing characteristics of that are very different from those of jumping forwards two instructions
23:24:54 <AnMaster> I think I remember that from PIC12F*
23:25:03 <tusho> #2C3300 is a nice colour
23:25:15 <ais523> let me try to imagine it first
23:25:20 <ais523> then I'll load it up and look
23:25:33 <ais523> let's see... a dark greenish-yellow?
23:25:54 <tusho> AnMaster: data:text/html,<body bgcolor=#2C3300>
23:26:18 <AnMaster> tusho, one of the shades of military green I'd say
23:26:26 <tusho> hmm, yes, possibly
23:26:36 <tusho> I just like the kind of grimey sort of feeling
23:26:55 <AnMaster> "No definitions were found for grimey."
23:27:18 <ais523> data:text/html,<html><body bgcolor='#2c3300'>
23:27:18 <ais523> and tusho: I like it when seen from above
23:27:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:27:27 <tusho> that's some impressive lag.
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23:27:48 <AnMaster> tusho: Did you mean: define:glamalicious
23:28:04 <tusho> ais523: what is it like seen from above?
23:28:11 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for glamalicious.
23:28:15 <ais523> well, my connection dropped
23:28:19 <ais523> AnMaster: wtf was the original question, to get /that/ reply?
23:28:23 <ais523> from below it's a sort of dull reddish uck
23:28:30 <tusho> ais523: ah, your screen is weird
23:28:31 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> "No definitions were found for grimey."
23:28:45 <AnMaster> now do anyone care to tell what the word means?
23:28:49 <tusho> it is meant to be uck
23:28:58 <ais523> but it isn't uck from above
23:29:14 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't a real word, ordinary Googling from it returns a few pages which are using it as a made-up word
23:29:46 <tusho> glamalicious = glam
23:29:50 <ais523> it's glamalicious I was talking about
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23:30:45 <ais523> well, grimy is a real word
23:30:55 <ais523> I don't see why grimey would be considered anything other than a misspelling of it
23:31:01 <ais523> as the pronounciation would be the same
23:31:33 <AnMaster> ais523, there are several words with different spelling, same pronunciation and different meanings
23:31:40 <AnMaster> in both Swedish and English I think
23:31:48 <AnMaster> can't think of one right now however
23:32:05 <ais523> poor and pour is one common one in English
23:32:09 <ais523> tusho: that's same spelling
23:32:14 <tusho> ais523: no it isn't
23:32:17 <tusho> one is duck and the other is duck!
23:32:23 <tusho> also, poor is not pronounced the same as pour
23:32:30 <ais523> tusho: it is in Birmingham
23:32:42 <tusho> yes and that is because birmingham is the official home of satan.
23:32:48 <ais523> and everywhere else too I think
23:32:49 <tusho> ha, what do you say to THAT
23:33:13 <ais523> see, I counteract your bold and stupid assertion with a bold and uncited counter-assertion
23:33:34 <ais523> tusho: you are left-handed, sad and have 6 eyes?
23:33:46 <ais523> hmm... that doesn't make sense, my smiley-fu is fading
23:33:58 <tusho> also, birmingham is the official home of satan
23:34:11 <ais523> tusho: no way will I believe that from a sad left-hander with 6 eyes
23:34:39 * tusho eats ais523 with his gigantic (50meters) feeth for questioning him
23:34:55 * ais523 tries hard not to wonder what a footh is
23:35:11 <tusho> ais523: don't think about a pink elephant
23:35:23 <ais523> I actually managed that for about 2 seconds
23:35:31 <ais523> and am managing it occasionally even now
23:35:42 <ais523> the problem being that a pink elephant just isn't something I can easily bring to mind
23:35:56 <ais523> whoops, I'd better go home
23:36:00 <tusho> ais523: don't think about a train
23:36:01 <ais523> almost missed my bus...
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23:36:05 <tusho> DON'T THINK ABOUT A BUSS
23:36:20 <tusho> AnMaster: that hoax?
23:38:01 <tusho> ijust crashed safari
23:38:28 <AnMaster> tusho, nice, send a bug report
23:38:53 <tusho> i think i caused an infinite loop of hover&display/unhover¬ display
23:38:59 <tusho> with some crazy css
23:39:30 <tusho> i think with firefox it'd cause an endless flicker of the element appearing/disappearing
23:40:08 <AnMaster> tusho, still possible to abort by moving the mouse elsewhere?
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03:45:45 <oc2k1> Update on the BF computer idea: It looks like a (synchronous) up/down counter needs the same number of gatter like a adding unit
03:46:41 <oc2k1> in that case it would be thinkable to wire a nibble fromt the code tape to that unit
03:48:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Not bad..
03:49:00 <oc2k1> the next step would be to replace the condition == or != 0 by <0 (save the comparision unit, because only the MSB contain that state)
03:55:06 <oc2k1> Maybe it's not the idea to minimize the functionality, but the hardware
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09:48:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | C guarantees 32 KB of auto storage, I wonder what it guarantees on nested function calls..
09:48:18 <optbot> Mony: I know that bf is turing complete but I needed to prove that it was possible to do
09:57:00 <fizzie> I wonder where that 32k number comes from; can't seem to find it in C99, the closest thing is "65535 bytes in an object (in a hosted environment only)" in the limits section.
09:57:13 <fizzie> optbot: Do you know where it came from?
09:57:22 <optbot> fizzie: And I thought C++ was bad
10:04:34 <fizzie> optbot: I'm not seeing any guarantees about storage in the C++ standard either, although I might have missed something, it's so long.
10:14:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, url to fungot again please?
10:14:08 <fungot> AnMaster: very good chance. i called it a gallery
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10:16:30 <fizzie> I just updated it, so you might want to refetch.
10:16:49 <fizzie> Or hmm, did I? Not sure.
10:17:01 <fizzie> I was almost certain I had gotten rid of the NULL usage, but apparently not.
10:17:16 <Keymaker> i mainly stopped to advertise a new language i added to esowiki; figurehead: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Figurehead
10:17:20 <fizzie> Maybe I just thought about it.
10:17:25 <Keymaker> just in case nobody visits that wiki
10:19:25 <oklopol> Only sequences of two or more of the same character are count, that is, only they cause computation to happen. <<< i think it's "counted"
10:19:49 <fizzie> It could also be "count" without the "are".
10:20:20 <oklopol> Loops may be nested, and a same loop sequence used later. <<< i can't parse this at all
10:20:42 <oklopol> count without are is better
10:20:57 <oklopol> i'm only correcting up to grammar
10:21:08 <fizzie> s/a/the/ maybe, but what else is wrong with the loop thing?
10:21:39 <Keymaker> like that if there is loop sequence "aaa" (not sure if spaces show up here) can be used again after it's used, like aaaBBBaaaBaaaBBaaa
10:21:57 <Keymaker> not very clear :D B marks | in that
10:22:24 <fizzie> That's how I parsed it.
10:22:34 <Keymaker> yes, but i was talking to oklopol
10:23:00 <Keymaker> so at least i wasn't completely unclear, then, maybe :)
10:23:52 <oklopol> s/a/the/ fixes it, yes, i'm being a bit pedantic atm, not even trying to fix the error myself
10:24:40 <oklopol> that's a somewhat interesting language, the memory is actually a set?
10:24:57 <oklopol> or, well, you could have a register for each ||...|, and just inc/dec it
10:25:58 <Keymaker> but i don't know what the memory is, technically. new values go to end and also when loop begins it takes value from end, but values are removed beginning from left/start
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10:27:03 <oklopol> well, it doesn't really make much difference where the values are removed
10:27:41 <oklopol> what i'd suggest is a way to run multiple threads, and do multiset operations on the threads when they stop executing
10:27:42 <Keymaker> it makes to keep it deterministic. if they were removed randomly, which i first did, the loop instruction might work differently
10:28:52 <Keymaker> imagine stack 2 3 2 and then you remove 2 randomly :)
10:29:13 <oklopol> so basically what was last incremented
10:29:34 <oklopol> you could have it be a stack, and have that as like a separate rule... except it wouldn't work for nested rules
10:29:48 <oklopol> so okay, it can be a stack, i won't complain.
10:31:53 <Keymaker> can you try the interpreter to see if it works?
10:32:39 <AnMaster> Keymaker, interesting language
10:48:27 <Keymaker> well, hopefully someone will try the interpreter and minsky machine translator and find some "use" for this language. i must get going
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12:26:11 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
12:26:58 <Slereah> Stop it. You sound like a parrot.
12:27:03 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
12:46:52 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
12:47:06 <fizzie> There's a complex task, automated.
12:51:12 <oerjan> you have two digit numbers but not three? :D
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12:51:49 <oklofok> it's not polite to mock, oerjan
12:52:06 <oklofok> fizzie can't help it if he's an incredible moron
12:52:26 <oerjan> i thought you were being serious there for a moment
12:52:39 <fizzie> Where would a three-digit number go there?
12:52:45 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Aaaaaaah.jpg
12:52:46 <Slereah> I think Spiderman just shat on my graph.
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12:53:29 <fizzie> It only eats plain old brainfuck as input, so there are no numbers at all.
12:53:40 <Slereah> I have no idea what just happened.
12:53:40 <Slereah> They're supposed to be orbits.
12:54:07 <oerjan> ah so it is compressed after the fact
12:54:35 <fizzie> Yes, it is turned into a bytecode form, and the "show" command just sticks numbers there instead of repeating the characters.
12:54:42 <oerjan> Slereah: i think you generated a black hole somewhere
12:54:43 <fizzie> ^def test bf ++++++++++
12:55:44 <fizzie> There should also be some clear correlation in http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/a_mess.png but it's not happening.
12:55:52 <fizzie> If we're comparing graphs here.
12:57:27 <oerjan> at least Slereah's is a bit pretty
12:57:33 <Slereah> I think I know what happened.
12:57:57 <oerjan> yeah you've got a cumulus at the center
12:58:07 <Slereah> If I reduce the plotting range, I get clearer figures
12:58:25 <Slereah> But they're full of angles, for some reason
12:58:35 <Slereah> Though they're supposed to be ellipses
12:58:59 <oerjan> fizzie: no that's yours
12:59:36 <oerjan> Slereah: a bit large delta somewhere?
13:00:13 <Slereah> Part of the code was stolen
13:00:26 <Slereah> From there : http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/TheCelestialTwoBodyProblem/
13:00:57 <Slereah> I can see the deferent circles now :D
13:01:05 <Slereah> Let's reduce the range once more, see what happens!
13:01:25 <oerjan> oh you mean the time range?
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13:02:46 <fizzie> Reduced a bit too much, eh?
13:03:02 <oerjan> yeah if it gets around the orbit in less time than your resolution and just uses lines between neighbors..
13:04:33 <fizzie> Heh, my public_html directory at work is pretty much just a list of graphs that have made me go "huh?". Like in http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/comp.png where methods 1 and 2 were supposed to give pretty much identical results.
13:05:33 <fizzie> I would provide some if I remembered it.
13:05:42 <oerjan> looks more like inverses...
13:06:04 <fizzie> I think it's the output of abs(fft(x)), though, since the X range seems to be 1:129.
13:06:46 <oerjan> oklofok: it's based on tracing honey bees with infrared lasers
13:07:08 <oerjan> or with ultraviolet ones
13:07:20 <oerjan> the difference is because bees can see UV
13:07:21 <fizzie> Thanks, that was better than what I would have come up with.
13:08:40 <oerjan> plus that the bees explode if the IR is turned to high
13:09:18 <oklofok> heh, i kinda lolled @ reading lazy executiong as "crazy execution"
13:10:18 <oerjan> being beaten to death with soft white bread
13:10:30 <oerjan> it's fun the first couple hours
13:10:47 <oerjan> the bread must be changed regularly when going stale
13:11:09 <oerjan> and this actually is not my invention
13:11:24 <oklofok> i think i've heard it before, i mean the soft white bread part
13:11:39 <oklofok> if it's actually called "crazy execution", then i didn't know that
13:11:57 <oerjan> it was just an example
13:12:55 <oerjan> there _has_ to be a monty python example. or several.
13:12:58 <oklofok> perhaps crazy execution could refer to opening both threads at every branch, and only using the result of the actual branch after both are done
13:13:50 <oklofok> purely crazy languages cannot be tc, obviously
13:15:06 <oerjan> languages that take longer to run than the lifetime of the universe come to mind
13:15:19 <oklofok> if we have a jump backwards
13:15:28 <oklofok> then execution will always take infinite time
13:16:18 <oklofok> i guess you could have instruction that change the code
13:17:15 * oerjan changes his mind after reading properly
13:18:05 <oklofok> yeah if it doesn't matter that not all threads are done, it's basically just a... crazy way to do execution
13:19:40 <oklofok> nice, this book assumes the reader knows what "intractability" is, but not what a "file" is
13:19:57 <oklofok> made for the hardcore computer scientist i see
13:20:22 <AnMaster> "the trait of being hard to influence or control" according to google's define:
13:20:51 <oklofok> AnMaster: an intractable problem is one that cannot be done in polynomial time, consult oerjan for exact definition, in case this is inaccurate
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13:26:44 <oklofok> and also thanks for demonstrating my point
13:26:57 <oklofok> ...i'm assuming you have a faint idea what a "file" is?
13:29:04 <oerjan> 'record in a public office or in a court of law; "file for divorce"; "file a complaint"'
13:29:50 <oerjan> also according to google
13:30:10 <oklofok> that's not "a file", that's "file"
13:30:23 <oerjan> that's what define file gives
13:31:01 <oerjan> 'a set of related records (either written or electronic) kept together'
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13:31:30 <oerjan> 'a set of related records (either written or electronic) kept together'
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14:42:46 <tusho> Fuck, I do not understand this:
14:42:48 <tusho> def f_callcc(env, cc, f):
14:42:48 <tusho> # this is a kind of wacky way of doing this
14:42:48 <tusho> return ev(cons(f, cons(cons(symbol("quote"), cons(cc, nil)), nil)), env, cc)
14:43:00 <tusho> Well I might understand it.
14:50:58 <oerjan> that first argument to ev seems to be `(,f ',cc) in backquote notation iirc
14:58:19 <oerjan> technically i think i'd've wanted `(',f ',cc) or a direct application
14:58:44 <tusho> ev(code, environment, continuation function)
14:58:54 <oerjan> tusho: you don't understand backquote notation?
14:59:14 <tusho> it evals `(,f ',cc)
14:59:26 <tusho> the quote just because otherwise it'll try and evaluate a continuation and get confused, think
14:59:45 <oerjan> which seems like it would evaluate f twice
15:00:01 <oerjan> since it's probably already evaluated
15:00:08 <tusho> oerjan: functions are self-evaluating
15:00:16 <tusho> and `(f ',cc) wouldn't work
15:00:19 <tusho> since f is a python var
15:00:27 <oerjan> are you checking that it is a function?
15:01:42 <tusho> oerjan: i don't think you understand...
15:01:46 <tusho> that function declaration is the definition of callcc
15:01:49 <tusho> in the lisp-in-python i wrote
15:02:03 <tusho> and just found today
15:02:15 <oerjan> sure, and i just don't think you are checking that it gets a function as argument :)
15:02:30 <oerjan> it's not a big deal though
15:02:43 <tusho> oerjan: i think it gets f unevaluated.
15:02:56 <tusho> so it will be a symbol or a list or whatever, and needs to be evaluated
15:03:05 <tusho> (call/cc (lambda ...)) i think itd get (lambda ...)
15:03:25 <oerjan> um lambdas are self-evaluating too
15:05:03 <oerjan> except it might not be called directly, call/cc is not a special form
15:05:27 <oerjan> so it could be called in some higher-order fashion, with things already evaluated
15:05:48 <tusho> should i just give you the whole source so you can tell me how bad i messed it up :D
15:06:15 <tusho> that will shut you up!
15:06:45 <oerjan> tusho knows my weak points - i must add him to the List
15:06:52 <oerjan> whoops, did i say that aloud?
15:08:13 * oerjan refuses to believe tusho took that seriously
15:08:21 <tusho> i take everything seriously
15:09:05 <tusho> [ehird:~/Code] % grep 'return ev(cons(f, cons(cons(symbol("quote"), cons(cc, nil)), nil)), env, cc' *
15:09:21 <oerjan> those > smileys look really weird when you try to interpret them upside down
15:09:38 <oerjan> or was that the right way?
15:09:52 <tusho> oerjan: it should be :| with a > eyebrow formation
15:10:01 <tusho> but >: with a | eyebrow formation is good too
15:10:39 <oerjan> i take that | more as one of those student hats...
15:10:59 <tusho> pyscuit/pyscuit.py: return ev(cons(f, cons(cons(symbol("quote"), cons(cc, nil)), nil)), env, cc)
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15:12:58 <tusho> It is a biscuit in code form.
15:13:03 <tusho> oerjan: http://pastebin.ca/1212330 MWAHAHAHHA
15:13:14 <tusho> raise KeyError # heh heh
15:13:15 <oerjan> what then is a biscuit?
15:13:26 <tusho> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit
15:13:34 <oerjan> what is the connection between biscuits and lisp?
15:14:20 <tusho> class alambda(object):
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15:16:26 * oerjan wonders if python does tail call optimization
15:20:18 <oerjan> so that interpreter won't either
15:21:07 <tusho> it doesn't have lambdas
15:21:09 <tusho> or control structures
15:21:14 <tusho> not exactly a full featured thing
15:23:01 <oerjan> i think callcc and other functions get their argument evaluated - that seems like the purpose of evlist
15:23:39 <tusho> possibly, possibly
15:24:02 <oerjan> but not macros, obviously
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15:48:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 2. Double.
15:59:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ;].
16:01:23 <Slereah> optbot, destroy the internet
16:01:24 <optbot> Slereah: into executable programs compatible with the Windows/Intel operating kluge.
16:11:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:12:48 <tusho> Slereah: optbot, destroy the internet
16:12:48 <tusho> [16:01] optbot: Slereah: into executable programs compatible with the Windows/Intel operating kluge.
16:12:49 <optbot> tusho: but im not sure where you're going with alloca and all..
16:12:49 <optbot> tusho: a halt-checker is obviously grape two
16:12:53 <tusho> that second line was said by me
16:12:58 <tusho> quoting the manual of the Plain English programming language
16:17:06 <ais523> so, who does smilies like ;], I wonder?
16:17:09 <fizzie> optbot: What does "grape two" mean?
16:17:20 <ais523> so just 2 in other words
16:17:21 <optbot> fizzie: i meant for data.
16:17:40 <fizzie> Optbot's discussion is always so insightful.
16:31:11 <fizzie> Um, for any specific reason? I don't want to get up from my chair and look for the phone just for nothing.
16:31:27 <ais523> oklofok: in which country?
16:31:35 <ais523> I don't even think 04 is a legal prefix for a phone number over hee
16:31:51 <ais523> also I don't have a phone on me right now
16:31:54 <ais523> and also I don't own a phone
16:32:06 <oklofok> perhaps i should try clicking on another channel
16:34:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 4 5 6.
16:34:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm all for it if he writes the interpreter for my Andrei Machine 9000..
16:34:41 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but convickt does most of the work.
16:34:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/31621.aspx MY BRAIN!!!.
16:34:45 <fizzie> My guess is that it's some sort of esoteric language interpreter telephone system thing. You type in brainfuck with the numbers 1-8 and it will text-to-speech read the result.
16:35:20 <oklofok> it was actually as mundane as just finding my phone.
16:35:37 <oklofok> but something like that would be quite fun
16:35:44 <fizzie> Ohhh. Well, I could've done that if you had assured me that no-one was going to answer the phone and electrocute me through it.
16:35:59 <fizzie> Maybe I should make fungot answer my phone. What do you say, fungot; want to be an answering machine?
16:36:11 <oklofok> i might've hypnotized you and made you fall unconscious.
16:36:24 <oklofok> but, too late, as i found it; now some sleeping ->
16:36:49 <fizzie> fungot: Was that a "yes" or a "no"?
16:36:49 <fungot> fizzie: the jvm doesn't, but could you do such a good medium for this kind of stuff
16:37:44 <fizzie> I don't think I'm getting through.
16:40:53 <ais523> <fizzie> My guess is that it's some sort of esoteric language interpreter telephone system thing. You type in brainfuck with the numbers 1-8 and it will text-to-speech read the result.
16:40:56 <ais523> I really like that idea...
16:41:52 <fizzie> Maybe someone stranded on an uninhabited island, without a computer (but with a working phone) could pass the time while waiting for the rescures by writing brainfuck to the beach sand and then using that telephone service to execute it.
16:42:07 <fizzie> And that's just one possibility!
16:42:24 <ais523> unfortunately a useful BF program would probably take too long to write in
16:44:12 <fizzie> Hmm, well, maybe the fungot answering machine is a better idea, then; at least someone terminally bored on a long bus trip or something could call it for some "conversation".
16:44:13 <fungot> fizzie: has bad lambda support if you ask it, but it
16:45:03 <ais523> a fungot answering machine would be great
16:45:03 <fungot> ais523: yeah, for instance,
16:45:07 <ais523> or even an optbot answering machine
16:45:07 <optbot> ais523: !i 1 This is a test!\n
16:45:27 <ais523> if someone phoned you and you weren't in they'd hear a random line from #esoteric text-to-speeched
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16:46:15 <fizzie> Unfortunately I'm not quite sure I can implement it on my phone, since I don't think the J2ME mobile-Java-thing has the necessary APIs to actually answer phone calls, and I really don't want to touch the Symbian side.
16:46:29 <fizzie> I don't have a fixed land-line style phone line here. :/
16:46:56 <ais523> also, http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/10150.aspx is excellent, and apparently genuine
16:47:31 <fizzie> Yes, the "Daa Cener" was everyone's favourite last night.
16:48:28 <fizzie> Didn't check it out, and seems to work correctly right now -- but at least there are screen caps, it seems.
16:49:34 <ais523> probably the guess that somehow the backslash got lost from a regex removing \t seems the most plausible
16:51:35 <fizzie> Yes, although I'm not quite sure why someone would want to remove tabs from the site. Saving a dozen bytes doesn't sound like it.
16:54:07 <AnMaster> ais523, if I want to learn some Lisp, what variant would you recommend?
16:54:31 <ais523> I don't really use Lisp, and when I do I just use whichever interpreter I can get my hands on most easily
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16:54:39 <ais523> which in practice has normally been emacs-lisp, which is not quite the same
16:54:53 <ais523> Scheme's good theoretically, but is really a different language from Common Lisp
16:55:08 <ais523> you might want to ask tusho; he uses Lisp-like languages a lot more than me
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16:59:10 <oklofok> AnMaster: i'm no tusho, but it think you should read SICP, READ IT NOW
16:59:52 <AnMaster> oklofok, where can I find a copy?
17:00:13 <fizzie> Everywhere; a friend of mine bought 20 pieces of SICP and gave them to people.
17:00:16 <oklofok> it's online, and you can buy it from amazon, that's all i know
17:00:48 <tusho> AnMaster: to find out where to get sicp, read sicp
17:00:56 <oklofok> fizzie: where do you find these friends who dispense computer books?
17:01:06 <oklofok> tusho: right, right, as i said, i'm no tusho.
17:01:18 <tusho> after all these years...
17:01:18 <AnMaster> oklofok, and that is why I didn't ask tusho
17:01:43 <ais523> I should so put a paragraph in the C-INTERCAL manual explaining where to get the manual
17:01:49 <ais523> which says "Here, look, you're already reading it..."
17:01:55 <tusho> AnMaster: every time you complain about the quality of my answers you get 10 more annoying answers queued up
17:02:14 <fizzie> oklofok: A fellow student at HUT was that. And I guess the SICP-distribution was mostly because the local book store sold their SICP pile for something like 2 eur/book when HUT stopped using Scheme for teaching.
17:02:44 <oklofok> 1. why was i not there when that happened 2. did they change it to java?
17:03:14 <fizzie> oklofok: Don't know about 1, but yes, they did change it to Java. Although I think at least one of the introductory courses does Python now.
17:03:32 <oklofok> we had an introductory course in python when i took it
17:03:59 <fizzie> People kept complaining the Scheme course was too hard.
17:03:59 <tusho> java has its usecases
17:04:01 <tusho> but it's like comic sans
17:04:13 <tusho> humans just can't seem to get it into their heads WHAT the appropriate usecases are!
17:04:17 <tusho> so we need to ban it.
17:04:46 <oklofok> fizzie: i hate those people, just fyi
17:05:01 <AnMaster> tusho, what about ARC and PHP?
17:05:38 <tusho> AnMaster: those have no good use-cases
17:10:30 <ais523> tusho: appropriate use-case for Java is when you need to write an application which has portable complex UI
17:10:49 <tusho> ais523: watch people say 'java suckz for everything' because it's cool
17:10:58 <tusho> you could watch ... but everyone isn't talking
17:11:02 <tusho> so it'd be quite boring
17:11:20 <ais523> well, I think Java's paradigm is annoying
17:11:37 <ais523> it takes OO to too much of an extreme whilst missing out important bits of it
17:11:50 <ais523> and it does all sorts of weird hacks to get around the lack of multiple inheritance
17:12:07 <ais523> and it doesn't really have templates, not even in the version where they claimed to have added them
17:12:27 <ais523> Java's sort of a weakly-typed strong-OO language, and the two don't go together at all well
17:12:39 <fizzie> It's "generics", not "templates". It doesn't claim to have templates.
17:13:22 <fizzie> But it's not really the same thing, yes. It's a compile-time type system thing, not code-generation-thing like C++ templates.
17:13:45 <ais523> type bleaching, or whatever Java calls it, is really not a good idea
17:13:58 <ais523> the whole point of templates is to manipulate generic objects in a type-safe way
17:14:06 <ais523> Java's method is not type-safe, therefore misses the point
17:14:12 <fizzie> I think "erasure" was the term they use.
17:14:33 <ais523> you know information about an object's type, but ignore it...
17:16:41 <fizzie> How about C# generics, by the way? I don't know ~anything about it, but I think it's quite close to Java, except that they don't throw away the type information at run-time.
17:19:28 <ais523> I don't know anything about C# generics either
17:19:42 <ais523> Microsoft would have to be pretty stupid to make them worse than Java's, though
17:24:21 <tusho> C# is a lot better than Java
17:24:27 <tusho> C# 3 has loads of functional programming features and stuff.
17:24:30 <tusho> EVen lightweight lambda syntax.
17:24:46 <tusho> I'd like to learn it sometime, it sounds a really nice language.
17:26:47 <oklofok> i read a book about it once
17:27:25 <oklofok> but it didn't talk about lambdas
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17:28:32 <tusho> oklofok: probably an older version
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17:55:06 <tusho> where is ihope when you need him
17:57:45 <AnMaster> so if you want help you can ask
17:57:52 <AnMaster> was a while ago I last programmed in it
17:57:59 <AnMaster> but C#'s generics are pretty nice
17:58:01 <tusho> i'd probably end up using a lot of 3.0 features though
17:58:05 <tusho> since that seems when they added all the fun stuff
17:58:16 <AnMaster> tusho, those I don't know anything about except what I read
17:58:27 <AnMaster> LINQ and such does sound cool I agree
17:58:53 <AnMaster> and yes the generics are type safe in C#
17:59:02 <AnMaster> I'd say they are even pretty sane
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18:05:05 * oerjan declares the optbot topic idea to be a strike of genius
18:05:06 <optbot> oerjan: Well I figured out how to abuse it
18:05:14 <oerjan> optbot: you can say that
18:05:41 <oklofok> oerjan: was it tusho's or yours?
18:06:02 <tusho> the idea in the actual topic
18:06:14 <tusho> oerjan: do you mean optbot
18:06:14 <optbot> tusho: that would explain a lot
18:06:15 <tusho> or the current topic
18:06:29 <optbot> oerjan: that'd be even easier
18:06:42 <oerjan> i haven't read the link yet
18:06:52 <oerjan> although i expect amusement
18:08:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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18:10:04 * oerjan swats tusho and ais523 in one fell swoop
18:10:19 <tusho> oerjan: well i am glad that optbot is such a hit :P
18:10:19 <optbot> tusho: Somehow I just became encased in stone or something.
18:10:24 <optbot> tusho: So the only valid programs are @[.@] and @[@.]
18:10:30 <optbot> tusho: Anyone get a chance to look at the file link I posted above?
18:10:33 <optbot> tusho: Of1ffUf]Ou,>,f[f^f_f,#+,+,+,+,+,+,f+f,f+f,f+f,f)f,>+wfnfgffUfWfVfSfgD$ffUf]fffUf]f)fg:T$uf1,8tfUf]ffZf[f^f_f]ffUfWfVfSf,gD$f<fHfvf1f1fff(f@ff(f(ff1f(f+(ffgffffuifff fuWfuGu;fgfSu+f(fBfgfBf(g:dJgBdf@gBfEfFf<^gfD$fffYf[f^f_f]fx86-64i%d86This kernel requires an %s CPU, but only detected an %s CPU.
18:10:40 <ais523> <optbot> tusho: Anyone get a chance to look at the file link I posted above?
18:10:41 <optbot> ais523: do you guys use usenet?
18:10:48 <ais523> quite ironic given that optbot put a link in the topic
18:10:50 <optbot> ais523: Ö is an excellent one-character smiley 8-D
18:10:57 <ais523> and yes, I do use usenet
18:11:02 <oerjan> optbot: not any longer
18:11:03 <optbot> oerjan: In a well designed C program, you don't need casting.
18:11:53 <oerjan> what's IIRC and how do you use that...
18:12:27 <tusho> iirc=if I recall correctly
18:12:29 <tusho> but i think he meant IRC
18:12:41 <ais523> oerjan: I meant "I IRC", as in "I use IRC"
18:12:59 <tusho> at least oerjan's are easy to spot.
18:13:13 <oklofok> the best puns are the ones no one gets
18:13:51 <oerjan> oklofok: until long after they've caused a 50 page flamewar?
18:14:24 <oklofok> do people pronounce irc as [irk] or [aiaarsii] in america, or little america (and by that i mean britain)?
18:14:24 <oerjan> (page here is meant to be a medium-neutral term)
18:14:44 <ais523> in America I pronounce it as seperate letters
18:15:01 <ais523> presumably I pronounce it like that in America too
18:15:05 <ais523> but I've never been there so wouldn't know
18:15:21 <oerjan> in norway too, except it's [i Er se]
18:15:38 <tusho> irssi is a pun on the irc pronounciation from finland
18:16:21 <oklofok> actually i don't think anyone pronounces it like that, presumably because irssi is now the program
18:16:59 <oerjan> should have called it ERC instead
18:18:01 <oklofok> also it's one of those names that, unless the name of an actual person in context, are somewhat funny
18:18:25 <oklofok> i don't know why, but some names are funnier than others.
18:18:49 <tusho> erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki
18:18:55 <oklofok> i'm gonna go read now, see you in a thousand years
18:19:02 <tusho> erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki
18:19:54 <oerjan> but then i shouldn't speak. some completely normal norwegian names are: Odd, Even and Bent
18:20:32 <oklofok> can't imagine a better way to go
18:20:38 <oklofok> speaking of which, i should
18:21:00 <oerjan> <oklofok> can't imagine a better way to go
18:21:09 <oklofok> "read new languages?", or just "new languages?"?
18:21:17 <oerjan> that usually has a different connotation
18:21:37 <oc2k1> erkki erkki -> looks like ook
18:21:57 <oklofok> it was more of a coincidence it looked like i tried to find a synonym for fine
18:21:59 <oerjan> oc2k1: you must not be familiar with oko yet
18:22:35 <oklofok> as opposed to saying something weird on purpose
18:22:35 <oerjan> hm it would be easy to make a BF <-> oko encoding
18:22:50 <oklofok> psygnisfive: what's the perfect amount of g-letters in a set?
18:23:05 <psygnisfive> whichever amount will get me into your bed. :O
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18:23:15 <oklofok> oerjan: o `append` (unary + s/0/ko)
18:23:21 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:23:27 <oklofok> psygnisfive: no, it's actually a few g's more
18:23:40 <oklofok> i'm still looking for the exact amount
18:23:46 <oklofok> aaaaanyway, i reaaaaally gotta go
18:23:49 <oerjan> oklofok: what the heck are you talking about and do i want to know?
18:24:33 <oklofok> oerjan: take an o, append a unary program with that s/// done upon its body
18:25:39 * oerjan doesn't like that encoding
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21:25:51 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers5/usa-usb.jpg
21:27:19 <GregorR> This appears to be a JPEG of ASCII art.
21:27:22 * Mony is now playing: Rammstein - Amerika
21:27:31 <GregorR> (With the exception of the USB logo)
21:27:39 <Mony> We're living in USA :p
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21:30:47 <Slereah> GregorR : Maybe it are from 2chan :o
21:31:27 <Slereah> Unicody ASCII art scenes with kittuns like that seem to come from 2chan
21:31:34 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
21:31:37 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/prettyboy2.jpg
21:31:58 <Slereah> And I'm not shaving my beard
21:39:47 <GregorR> I'm not falling for that twice >_<
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21:48:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :P.
21:49:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no on hir.
21:49:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _ is an underscore.
21:49:38 <Mony> _ is an underscore
21:49:43 <Mony> OMG ! that's true !
21:50:10 <Mony> ¯ is an upscore optbot ?
21:50:10 <optbot> Mony: if in (A B C ...), A is not a function
21:50:25 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
21:51:37 <Slereah> optbot, what happens then!
21:51:38 <optbot> Slereah: CUBSO perhaps? Completely Useless Binary System Output
21:51:57 <ais523> Slereah: what's the problem?
21:51:57 <tusho> that's shift-jis art
21:52:16 <tusho> probably from 2ch yeah
21:52:18 <ais523> someone ought to do mojibake art
21:52:25 <ais523> that actually makes sense in the original Japanese
21:53:30 <Slereah> I know it's not unicode, but I don't know the name of anything other than ASCII and Unicode
21:53:50 <Deewiant> I suppose you know your own name
22:00:30 * GregorR smashes his head into a wall.
22:00:44 <GregorR> Unicode is a character set, UTF-8 is an encoding. It can't be UTF-8 art.
22:00:58 <ais523> you could have URLencoded UTF-8 art
22:04:57 <Slereah> I don't know the difference.
22:05:22 <tusho> Slereah: unicode defines a bunch of characters
22:05:24 <tusho> and gives them a number
22:05:30 <tusho> UTF-8 tells you how you can put unicode into bytes
22:05:48 <Deewiant> UTF-n tells you how to put Unicode into n-bit bytes
22:06:03 <tusho> Deewiant: Things that matter: You are specifying more than them.
22:06:54 <Slereah> Does it matter since they're numbers? :o
22:06:55 <Deewiant> also, UCS-2 is like UTF-16 but can only encode up to Unicode 0xFFFF.
22:07:15 <GregorR> Slereah: UTF-32 is just Unicode numbers as 32-bit words.
22:07:20 <Deewiant> I forget how UCS-4 differs from UTF-32.
22:07:30 <Slereah> *What are the differences?
22:07:39 <Slereah> I mean, are they just smaller unicode sets
22:07:42 <Deewiant> In some very tiny way, I'm not sure if I've even looked it up.
22:08:01 <GregorR> I thought UCS-4 and UTF-32 were the same, although UCS-(<4) and UTF-(<32) weren't ...]
22:08:06 <ais523> Slereah: Unicode is not trivial to represent on a computer because the codepoints go up to 0x10FFFF
22:08:10 <tusho> Slereah: basically
22:08:12 <tusho> unicode characters
22:08:15 <Deewiant> Wikipedia sez: "Accordingly UCS-4 and UTF-32 are now identical except that the UTF-32 standard has additional Unicode semantics."
22:08:17 <tusho> are bigger than can be stored in 1 byte
22:08:24 <tusho> just puts e.g. NUL
22:08:26 <ais523> thus there are multiple encodings, which say how to store Unicode on a computer
22:08:26 <tusho> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000
22:08:28 <tusho> if you see what i mean
22:08:37 <tusho> "if the first bit is 1, this is just a regular 8-bit ascii char"
22:08:38 <Slereah> Stop saying words, I can't read
22:08:44 <tusho> "otherwise, look past this byte"
22:08:49 <tusho> "because it's WEIRD SHIT"
22:08:49 <ais523> tusho: actually utf-8 is first bit 0 for a regular char
22:09:02 <tusho> ais523: abstract: I am describing things in the it.
22:09:16 <ais523> and all the bytes of multibyte characters have top bit 1
22:09:20 <Deewiant> tusho: it, you are doing wrong.
22:09:33 <tusho> Deewiant: Care, I not do.
22:10:15 <Deewiant> tusho: compromised, readability is.
22:10:29 <tusho> Deewiant: Why, That's it I'm doing it.
22:13:23 <tusho> Deewiant: Crap, your compiler is.
22:14:36 <Deewiant> (length . filter (=="it") . words $ "That's why I'm doing it" == 1) == True
22:14:51 <Deewiant> (length . filter (=="it") . words $ "Why, that's it I'm doing it" == 1) == False
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22:22:34 <tusho> Slereah didn't say anything.
22:22:56 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:23:57 <psygnisfive> See no Haskell, hear no Haskell, speak no Haskell
22:24:22 <Slereah> PURITY THROUGH PARENTHESIS
22:24:51 <pikhq> Dammit, Kmail, *stop sucking*.
22:25:04 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:25:08 <pikhq> "Oh, look at me, I'm Kmail! I forgot how to send mail via SMTP!"
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22:28:39 <kmail> will you be my friend ( ﾟ ヮﾟ)
22:28:42 -!- kmail has changed nick to tusho.
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22:34:18 <pikhq> Kmail sucks balls.\
22:34:23 <pikhq> And not in a good way.
22:34:26 <ais523> it's pretty crazy, Evolution apparently uses my normal webmail interface via screen-scraping HTML
22:35:05 <ais523> tusho: that's how bad the Exchange protocols are, apparently screenscraping the webmail interface is easier...
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22:38:11 <pikhq> Easier still is using IMAP. :p
22:38:48 <ais523> well, if you aren't forced to use University-provided email
22:39:29 <pikhq> Exchange is also an IMAP server, though a lot of Exchange servers don't have that enabled.
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22:48:02 <tusho> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
22:51:21 * ais523 forgets that email can't contain the word From at the start of a line, and remembers again after sending a message
22:51:29 <ais523> hmm... there should be some transparent escaping for that
22:53:38 <ais523> mailers change it to >From
22:53:42 <ais523> and nothing changes it bacj
22:54:10 <tusho> ais523: check your email
22:54:36 <ais523> there are spaces at the start of the line
22:54:54 <ais523> which didn't come out over IRC
22:56:48 <ais523> ah, didn't come out at my end
22:56:53 <ais523> did you type right at the start of the line?
22:57:01 <ais523> in that case your mailer escapes differently from the ones I've seen
22:57:13 <tusho> spaces are superior
22:57:18 <tusho> 2. not parsed as a quote...
22:57:28 <tusho> your latest message looked odd to me
22:57:32 <tusho> because mail.app thought it was part of the quote
22:58:09 <tusho> AS WELL AS GLOBAL WARMING
22:59:02 <tusho> dolphins are finalnd
23:00:59 <ais523> gmail didn't escape at all
23:01:26 <ais523> presumably the server receiving would do the escape if needed to put the message into mbox format, then
23:03:12 <tusho> not escaping is sane imo
23:03:16 <tusho> its mbox's problem
23:03:33 <ais523> presumably Mail.app adds spaces so that mbox's broken escaping isn't needed
23:03:42 <ais523> a sort of client-side fix to a server-side problem?
23:04:15 <ais523> actually, the biggest problem is probably in the mbox format for using "\nFrom " as a message separator
23:05:14 <tusho> i think any client storing mail in anything but a database should be shot
23:05:39 <ais523> storing mail in a file allows the writing of a simple Perl script to parse it
23:05:40 <tusho> ais523: yeah but you're forced to use exchange
23:05:42 <ais523> and the format can be read by hand
23:05:42 <tusho> and exchange should be shot
23:05:51 <tusho> and yes, but there should be an index database
23:06:03 <tusho> a one-file-per-mail just-store-exactly-what-came-in with no organization directory
23:06:08 <calamari> who's to say that text files in a file system isn't a database?
23:06:12 <tusho> containing metadata and indexes for searching and such
23:06:18 <tusho> calamari: that is acceptable, but
23:06:22 <tusho> most clients don't treat it as a db
23:07:09 <calamari> no idea how ff3 stores cookies and cache.. so I couldn't tell you if my e-mail "client" uses a db or not :)
23:07:29 <ais523> calamari: you store your email in cookies?
23:07:46 <ais523> storing login details in cookies makes more sense
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03:48:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I guess it's not Plofy, though..
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05:54:28 <psygnisfive> http://ia300127.us.archive.org/2/items/700HoboNames/Hobo_Names.mp3
05:58:17 <oklofok> mister wilson fancy-pants :P
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07:53:14 <psygnisfive> http://www.boingboing.net/2008/09/18/video-of-a-guy-who-m.html
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14:04:13 <Slereah> http://www.novaksblog.com/pictures/stumble_on_sunday_4th_part/programming_tip.jpg
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14:40:19 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: 3. output "valid" or "invalid" depending whether the data is
14:44:28 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: (if (exist? optbot) (display "yes") (display "no"))
14:44:29 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: it's not a pythonic class name
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15:46:32 <Mony> optbot, really ? :o
15:46:33 <optbot> Mony: 1x-e+o at the right position
15:46:44 <Mony> but what about aboutness optbot ? xD
15:46:45 <optbot> Mony: ok.. so the max is with 1 byte-implementation x(255)?
15:47:05 <Mony> optbot, tu parles français ?
15:47:06 <optbot> Mony: you have 0 = nil...
15:47:08 <Mony> optbot, tu parles français ?
15:47:15 <Mony> ah ? oui optbot ?
15:47:16 <optbot> Mony: This is why everybody should smoke weed when listening to music.
15:48:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | maybe....
15:51:13 <Mony> optbot, what about tusho ? :?
15:51:14 <optbot> Mony: that only offers the same speed as the bundled interpreter
15:51:32 <tusho> i am a programming languge
15:52:08 <Mony> an esoteric programming language ^^
16:01:34 <tusho> Specifically, the only interpreter - me - is required by the spec to modify the spec every infinitesimal moment it witnesses.
16:01:34 <AnMaster> tusho, the language itself self modifies? Somewhat like Feather then?
16:01:52 <tusho> (If I didn't have write access to the spec - which is encoded in my DNA and so forth - then I couldn't be an implementation.)
16:02:29 <AnMaster> tusho, do you suggest every human is a language or just you?
16:02:31 <tusho> Of course, I might end up removing that clause althoguh considering how the self-modification works that's incredibly likely.
16:02:37 <tusho> AnMaster: I'm not a human.
16:02:42 <tusho> I'm an esolang & esolang interpreter.
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18:06:07 <ais523> ah, hi judofyr, haven't seen you here for a while
18:06:26 <SimonRC> ais523: hi, target-of-my-envy
18:06:57 <ais523> hellos all round, by the look of it
18:07:08 <Judofyr> yeah, I got tired of helping noobs at #ruby-lang
18:07:09 <ais523> now I'm annoyed that I don't have anything to report...
18:07:22 <SimonRC> Judofyr: don't overdo it, you'll burn out
18:10:04 <Judofyr> it's actually a bit fun, too
18:21:13 <ais523> heh, someone on MediaWiki made an ODT/JAR polyglot
18:21:22 <ais523> which was both a legal OpenDocument document and Java archive
18:21:34 <ais523> to prove that it wasn't always possible to determine the MIME type from the file itself
18:22:42 <SimonRC> ISTR that jpegs are ridiculously liberal regarding where their header starts
18:23:05 <SimonRC> so you can concatinate a jpeg onto another file and it will work as both
18:26:43 <tusho> SimonRC: other way too
18:26:54 <tusho> it used to be a neat trick to put an mp3 after a jpg and tell people to "Save as foo.mp3"
18:28:37 <Judofyr> ais523: both ODT & JAR is really a zip-archive, I assume?
18:29:00 <ais523> well, ODT can be a flatfile too but is normally a zip-archive
18:29:10 <Judofyr> and they both ignore files they don't understand..
18:31:54 <SimonRC> could one make documentation and code together in by that method
18:32:08 <AnMaster> g++ uses 400 MB for each file when compiling this project
18:32:19 <AnMaster> (the project is a game, wesnoth)
18:32:25 <SimonRC> or make an official compatibility requirement between ODT and JAR?
18:33:17 <SimonRC> AnMaster: are you doing the super-duper C++ types thing?
18:33:28 <Judofyr> code + documentation sounds awesome!
18:33:33 <AnMaster> SimonRC, no clue, I'm just an user trying to compile a game I like
18:33:59 <SimonRC> Judofyr: well, there is already Javadoc, which can go in the JAR
18:34:11 <AnMaster> in fact C++ is using more ram than virtualbox currently
18:34:26 <Judofyr> still, user-guides, tutorials should go together with the code
18:34:26 <AnMaster> since virtualbox use 500 MB RAM
18:34:45 <AnMaster> that was the computer_ai.cpp btw
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18:36:52 <AnMaster> Judofyr, I tend to use doxygen rather than javadoc, but I don't code in java at all
18:37:12 <AnMaster> but edoc is kind of slightly crazy
18:37:36 <Judofyr> AnMaster: the point was that you can have a file which is both a .jar and a .odt
18:37:37 <AnMaster> it is probably the most weird "generate documentation from source comments" system out there
18:37:49 <Judofyr> so the jar-file IS the documentation too
18:37:52 <AnMaster> Judofyr, well yes of course both are zip
18:38:14 <AnMaster> isn't Microsoft's ooxml or whatever it was called also zip?
18:39:14 <ais523> well, OOXML is sufficiently badly specified that it can't really be calculated
18:39:18 <AnMaster> horrible idea in every possible way
18:39:23 <ais523> looking at what office 2007 does is one way to get some sort of clue
18:39:57 <ais523> still, I hear the standard's about 7500 pages once all the corrections are applied
18:40:18 <AnMaster> ais523, but what about a jar/odt/docx polygot?
18:40:23 <Judofyr> just write the file in Office 07, OO.org and compile the code, then merge all the zips
18:40:27 <AnMaster> let the user select what format they want to open it as
18:40:48 <AnMaster> ais523, the jar would contain a viewer for the same document as an applet or whatever
18:41:27 <AnMaster> hm doesn't jadetex? exist. quite close to that ;)
18:41:39 <Judofyr> it could be a great way to bundle documents, though
18:41:52 <AnMaster> Judofyr, you mean in many formats?
18:41:59 <ais523> hmm... what other ZIP-pased formats can we polyglot with it?
18:42:04 <Judofyr> create it as a jar-file which detects if you have Office or OO
18:42:08 <ais523> maybe you should put a Makefile and some sources in there
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18:42:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure, but you would have to extract it first
18:42:45 <AnMaster> and well I don't know, but what about spreadsheet formats? or such
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18:42:51 <ais523> yes, but a .zip archive with Makefile and/or configure script is reasonably common
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18:43:22 <AnMaster> ais523, you could probably select the zip encoding to create valid brainfuck
18:43:32 <Judofyr> and then it opens the file using the installed program
18:43:35 <AnMaster> probably with suboptimal compression then
18:43:36 <ais523> probably not valid INTERCAL though
18:43:41 <ais523> unless you could get it to start DONOT
18:43:43 * SimonRC goes away. He may be some time.
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18:44:53 <AnMaster> Judofyr, I don't know that for sure
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18:45:23 <Judofyr> but a .odtx is actually a nice idea
18:45:31 <ais523> no it isn't, it's a horrible idea
18:45:52 <Judofyr> correction: it's a nice hack
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18:46:28 <ais523> OOXML is horrible enough that it I don't like thinking about it
18:46:34 <ais523> although it's called OXML nowadays
18:46:39 <ais523> they dropped the "Office" from the name
18:46:53 <AnMaster> ais523, as long as they don't try to get that as a standard...
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18:47:05 <ais523> it was ISO who changed the name
18:47:14 <ais523> and I think it's going to become an ISO standard
18:47:20 <AnMaster> ais523, I hope they say no again
18:47:25 <ais523> as soon as the editors finish applying all the 2000 or so pages of changes
18:47:33 <ais523> they said yes the second time, in controversial circumstances
18:47:36 <ais523> then 4 countries appealed
18:48:26 <ais523> OTOH everyone is ignoring the resulting standard
18:48:56 <AnMaster> at least MS have to follow it now IMO
18:49:10 <ais523> at least not in the current version of Office
18:49:18 <ais523> they are supporting ODF, though, in a service pack
18:49:25 <ais523> and don't ask me, I'm not Microsoft
18:49:31 <ais523> although my guess is that it's because it's too difficult
18:49:57 <AnMaster> ais523, they could have selected to use odf with custom extensions instead or something
18:50:09 <AnMaster> or just plain odf would be better
18:50:16 <AnMaster> ais523, how long is the odf standard?
18:50:18 <ais523> well, yes, that's what they should do
18:50:23 <ais523> AnMaster: much shorter then the OOXML standard
18:50:26 <ais523> I'll download it and have a look
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18:53:07 <ais523> which is the current version
18:53:22 <ais523> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/22154/OpenDocument-v1.1.odt
18:53:29 <ais523> but it's full of examples
18:53:45 <ais523> and it has to define all the attributes needed for 3 different sorts of documents
18:53:57 <ais523> so slightly bigger than C99 seems reasonable IMO
18:54:03 <AnMaster> and I think C99 standard is huge
18:54:12 <AnMaster> iirc the scheme standard is way way smaller
18:54:15 <pikhq> It's better than OOXML, though.
18:54:29 <AnMaster> I think I read that one version was like 50 pages or so
18:54:31 <oerjan> the scheme standard is famous for being small, i think
18:54:41 <oerjan> or was until the latest versions...
18:54:50 <pikhq> 2 thousand-something pages and counting...
18:55:10 <ais523> the original version of OOXML was 6000 pages
18:55:16 <ais523> 2000 was the number of pages of /corrections/ that were suggested
18:56:43 <ais523> that's a good question...
18:56:59 <Judofyr> 6000 pages? is that actually necessary?
18:57:06 <ais523> obviously not, as ODF is a lot shorter
18:57:08 <pikhq> Among other things, they created a math markup language...
18:57:12 <pikhq> For *no good reason*.
18:57:20 <ais523> the problem is that ODF relies on a whole lot of established standards, which is fine
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18:57:30 <ais523> whereas OOXML re-invented most of ISO, by the look of it
18:57:38 <Judofyr> pikhq: the alternatives weren't created by Microsoft...
18:57:55 <ais523> well, a standard entirely created by one company is suspicious
18:58:33 <pikhq> They also have 3 different ways of specifying a table.
18:58:56 <Judofyr> Norway has chosen to use ODT, PDF & HTML for all official papers : -)
18:59:26 <pikhq> One of which is also a vector graphics format.
18:59:37 <Judofyr> http://virtuelvis.com/archives/2007/12/norway-mandates-html-pdf-odf
18:59:54 <ais523> Judofyr: I knew about Norway, it's not the only country doing that
19:00:05 <ais523> although #esoteric has sufficiently many Norwegians that perhaps it's the most relevant here
19:00:44 <ais523> oerjan is Norwegian IIRC
19:00:58 <ais523> and from somewhere I remember there was another
19:01:21 <ais523> hmm... is there a third, or is my memory playing up?
19:01:43 <ais523> out of the other countries that have adopted ODF...
19:01:49 <ais523> well, there's South Africa
19:02:17 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Among other things, they created a math markup language... <-- mathml iirc?
19:02:29 <ais523> MathML is a separate standard
19:02:36 <ais523> OXML has its own math markup
19:02:47 * ais523 tries to remember what it was called
19:03:06 <ais523> Judofyr: actually all the equations in the original OOXML standard were JPEGs
19:03:15 <ais523> yes, feel free to laugh, I am
19:03:46 <ais523> JPEG is not very good for equations...
19:04:47 <ais523> ODF is actually pretty good, I wrote a pro
19:04:49 <AnMaster> it is so much more awesome for documents than even odf
19:04:54 <ais523> for instance OpenOffice's macro language is rubish
19:04:57 <Judofyr> blurry images are so cute!
19:05:13 <ais523> so I wrote a program that just parsed the .ods file directly
19:05:18 <ais523> it wasn't too hard to figure out
19:05:28 <ais523> spreadsheet format from ODF
19:05:42 <ais523> .odt for documents, .ods for spreadsheets, .odp for presentations
19:05:44 <AnMaster> for text I prefer LaTeX or even LyX
19:06:04 <ais523> although not perfectly
19:06:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I think LaTeX is turing complete
19:06:18 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised
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19:06:29 <ais523> one of the ICFP entries last year was written in TeX
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19:06:45 <tusho> ais523: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
19:06:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I used a non-esoteric latex program that generated a natbib style file
19:06:51 <Mony> bbbbbbbbbbbbbb
19:06:56 <AnMaster> ais523, it was indeed coded in latex
19:07:10 <Judofyr> tusho: I think so. there was something at reddit a few days ago
19:07:30 <tusho> ais523: what place were you
19:07:43 <ais523> http://www.icfpcontest.org/results/
19:07:46 <AnMaster> excuse me for asking instead of googling, but my system is already swap trashing so I don't want to start a browser: what is ICFP?
19:07:46 <ais523> you can look at the same time I do
19:07:57 <ais523> AnMaster: the ICFP contest is a programming contest
19:08:10 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, what is special with it?
19:08:23 <ais523> it's just relatively famous
19:08:28 <ais523> and attracts quite a lot of entries
19:08:35 <AnMaster> ais523, nothing like obfuscation or such?
19:08:49 <Judofyr> didn't a Java-team win something?
19:08:52 <ais523> but there are strict time limits
19:09:05 <ais523> they set a task description
19:09:23 <ais523> and they have prizes for the best entry within 24 hours and the best three entries within 72 hours
19:09:27 <AnMaster> ais523, was it the mars rover one?
19:09:32 * Sgeo wishes the IRTC was still running (yes, I know that has nothing to do with programming)
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19:10:19 <ais523> ah, I was eliminated at Lightning-8 and Final-9
19:10:48 <Judofyr> TeX: http://sdh33b.blogspot.com/2008/07/icfp-contest-2008.html
19:11:11 <Judofyr> it uses Perl for network access, though
19:11:33 <ais523> they haven't put up all the details of the trials yet though
19:12:16 <Judofyr> Overall winner: Team Smartass wins again. Java is the programming language of choice for discriminating hackers.
19:12:38 <Judofyr> Top 10 languages: Top 10 languages: Java, C++, Java, Haskell, Haskell, C , C++ , C , C++, C++
19:12:49 <Judofyr> sauce: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/735fx/live_from_icfp_2008_icfp_programming_contest/c05jyov
19:13:33 <ais523> that was such an obvious contest to use imperative languages on, thouhg
19:13:42 <ais523> and it's meant to encourage functional programming...
19:17:34 <AnMaster> ais523, so you didn't even reach the top 10?
19:17:58 <ais523> why did you expect me to?
19:18:04 <ais523> Judofyr: I entered as ais523
19:18:10 <ais523> and there wasn't anyone else in my team
19:20:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I expected it as your app was good
19:20:41 <AnMaster> iirc you showed me some code from it
19:20:51 <ais523> well, so were many of the others
19:20:59 <ais523> you get some excellent programmers entering the ICFP contest
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19:44:24 <ais523> also, is an oklocop like a netcop?
19:44:34 <tusho> i have been doing the same on here thing since 3pm and it is terminally boring
19:48:02 <ais523> tusho: typing random letters into a channel?
19:48:09 <ais523> come over to ##nomic and start up a conversation
19:55:08 * oerjan watches oklocop fail. at the worst possible time.
19:56:20 <oklocop> i already did, ais523 clearly set up for a better pun than mine
19:56:39 <ais523> actually, I wasn't setting up for a pun
19:56:41 <oerjan> hm interesting, a grounded recursive acronym:
19:56:43 <oklocop> i mean, i had all the ingredients, murphy = law, cop = law, but i kinda blew it
19:56:56 <oerjan> 'TTC - Stands for "The TTC Company"'
19:56:56 <ais523> but referring to someone who was genuinely called murphy that both me and tusho know
19:57:05 <oklocop> i basically just said "lol pun elements! look i found them myself"
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20:14:20 <tusho> "This changes EVERYTHING!"
20:14:33 <oerjan> we've been discussing his quit messages before :)
20:15:04 <oerjan> this one was a new one i think
20:38:37 <AnMaster> yeah except the downside: there is as far as I know yet no 1.5 style theme for it
20:39:14 <Deewiant> http://webdesigns.ms11.net/winstripethemes.html ?
20:39:42 <Deewiant> I don't know, I googled that, is that it?
20:39:44 <AnMaster> well was some time ago I last checked
20:40:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which haven't been updated
20:41:10 <Deewiant> that was linked from https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3479
20:41:25 <AnMaster> however doesn't look exactly the same
20:41:39 <Deewiant> but, meh... my favoured theme doesn't exist for 3.0 either, but oh well
20:41:56 <Deewiant> the advantages of a good browser outweigh those of a good theme IMO :-P
20:42:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I include "usable" in "good"
20:42:28 <AnMaster> and I argue both 2.0 and 3.0 themes are "not usable"
20:42:50 <Deewiant> you've tried all the existing themes, then?
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20:43:26 <Deewiant> except in the days of 0.4 I guess
20:43:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well 1.5 standard theme rocked
20:43:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hehe I used opera back then iirc
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20:50:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what happened to thunderbird 3.0 btw?
20:51:32 <Deewiant> what do you mean what happened? :-P
20:51:53 <Deewiant> it's in development, alphas are out AFAIK
20:52:06 <tusho> the firefox 3 theme is usable & fine btw.
20:52:10 <tusho> also /me uses webkit nightlies
20:56:40 <AnMaster> tusho, you forgot an important word there
20:56:54 <tusho> AnMaster: let me guess
20:57:11 <AnMaster> "<tusho> the firefox 3 theme is usable & fine btw" << add "IMO", it is subjective, not some universal "truth"
20:57:41 <tusho> AnMaster: if we follow that route then everything everyone says has to end in IMO because everything humans say is subjective to themselves, IMO
20:57:43 <AnMaster> and it is completely subjective
20:58:08 <AnMaster> tusho, depends, some things are objective. Like the speed of light
20:58:27 <AnMaster> and everything else is relative it
20:58:35 <tusho> AnMaster: it's still IMO in that "it's what I've heard"
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20:59:10 <AnMaster> tusho, interesting, but don't you agree certain things, like taste, is more subjective than other things?
20:59:30 <tusho> AnMaster: did you recognize that was i say was subjective?
20:59:33 <tusho> yes you did. so there's no need to mark it
21:07:18 <tusho> ais523: buffer overflow red
21:11:11 <tusho> which you just lost
21:11:13 <tusho> and because I won it
21:13:20 <oerjan> apparently not mine either
21:13:21 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whatev
21:15:23 <oerjan> hmph those explanations all miss the point
21:15:49 <oerjan> it's not because the word is cool, it's because you care _so_ little you don't bother to finish it...
21:19:57 <oerjan> ah it's finally on no. 11
21:20:25 <tusho> A short version of the word whatever that lazy/stupid people use cause they THINK it sounds cool, but it's not. Only time it was cool is when Erin used it, and when she stopped it was deemed uncool.
21:21:24 <ais523> some person who defines cool, obviously
21:21:26 <oerjan> but not enough to google it
21:21:34 <ais523> oerjan: I doubt you could find that by googling
21:23:22 <oerjan> hm indee is a record company
21:24:16 <oerjan> tusho: why the vocalization?
21:24:37 <oerjan> tusho: why the consonance?
21:25:17 <oerjan> now where did i put that flyswatter...
21:26:19 * oerjan chases after tusho ---##
21:26:39 * tusho stares at oerjan blankly
21:27:08 <oerjan> what shall we now do with the quit/join spammers, i ask you
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21:27:38 <ais523> oerjan: before you said that, did we have any quit/join spammers?
21:28:19 * oerjan recalls ais523 being one
21:28:45 <ais523> oerjan: ah, that isn't deliberate, it's my connection messing up
21:28:53 <ais523> and there's not much I can do about it apart from not joining the channel
21:28:58 <tusho> he means unintentional ones
21:30:00 <oerjan> the intentional ones, we ban.
21:30:27 <oerjan> or would, if lament were around
21:30:47 <oerjan> isn't fizzie an op too?
21:31:15 <tusho> fizzie: are you an op?
21:31:34 <ais523> fungot: are you an op?
21:31:35 <fungot> ais523: you installed mandrake, right?
21:32:45 <tusho> optbot: You are an op.
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21:32:45 <optbot> tusho: I actually did it because I couldn't understand parts of Turing's article
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21:34:28 <tusho> use your opular powers to kick me
21:34:53 <oerjan> that would be a popular ower
21:35:23 <tusho> fizzie, lament ... do we have ops that actually do things
21:35:54 <oerjan> i think i've seen actual spammers handled
21:35:57 <fizzie> Didn't I already ban you once when you said you wanted it? Or have I just been imagining things again?
21:36:22 <oerjan> fizzie: knowing tusho, that seems extremely statistically likely
21:36:46 <tusho> fizzie: you did, yeah.
21:36:50 <fizzie> I think all we got out of that one was few minutes of pointlessness, unsurprisingly.
21:37:20 <oerjan> fizzie: wait a minute, shouldn't that have _increased_ signal to noise ratio?
21:37:25 <tusho> fizzie: it was fun! i was the brother that doesn't exist.
21:37:43 <fizzie> You were the brother?! Shocking!
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21:38:03 <oerjan> oh right. i think i remember that. not that you were banned first though...
21:38:11 <tusho> fizzie: better ban me now...
21:38:26 <oerjan> can you impersonate someone who doesn't exist?
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21:38:56 <oerjan> hm Judofyr could use a swatting
21:39:07 <tusho> oerjan: it was done twice actually
21:39:11 <tusho> same brother-routine each time
21:39:14 <tusho> once by lament once by fizzie
21:39:17 * oerjan kicks tusho in the stomach, causing him to throw the swatter up at Judofyr
21:39:49 <KingOfKarlsruhe> scheme is like a esoteric languange http://paste.pocoo.org/show/86466/
21:39:53 * ais523 places a large net in the middle of the situation, causing it to become a lot more confusing and amusing
21:40:16 <ais523> KingOfKarlsruhe: that doesn't look all that eso to me
21:43:16 <Judofyr> KingOfKarlsruhe: I would expect more of Scheme than that: (html (head (title "My Title) ) (body (h1 "My Site") (p "Welcome!")))
21:43:59 <Deewiant> Judofyr: but can you define html, head, title, body, h1, and p, in two lines? :-)
21:44:18 <Judofyr> Deewiant: I demand method_missing!
21:44:29 <tusho> Deewiant: very easy
21:44:29 <Judofyr> KingOfKarlsruhe: nice! I've always wanted to try Scheme..
21:44:30 <tusho> just have something like
21:44:35 <Deewiant> I don't know if Scheme can do that
21:44:40 <tusho> (run-html `(p "hello" ,(+ 2 2)))
21:44:43 <tusho> and parse it as lists
21:44:54 <tusho> essentially write a mini interp
21:45:01 <Deewiant> tusho: if it's two lines and very easy, just do it live ;-)
21:46:37 <Judofyr> I played with the idea to use a Java API to parse the DTD in JRuby in order to generate Ragel code which generated C which should be used in Ruby, so you can't do stuff like body { title "Hello!" }
21:47:35 <Judofyr> validating & generation XML on-the-go :-)
21:48:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | dang!.
21:48:30 <oerjan> optbot: you've been very brief lately
21:48:31 <optbot> oerjan: at least i haven't managed to mess anything yet
21:48:44 <ais523> optbot: that's debatable, look at fungot for instance
21:48:44 <fungot> ais523: fnord fnord __ a____.
21:48:45 <optbot> ais523: It's a lot cleaner than common lisp, though.
21:48:57 <fungot> Deewiant: you can't return the value
21:50:45 <fungot> tusho: include() is pretty fnord.)
21:54:37 <fungot> Deewiant: that's a fnord... so far they seem to have this kind of meeting, never mind
21:55:09 <oerjan> fungot seems a bit paranoid to me
21:55:09 <fungot> oerjan: yet euclid's proof is considered one of the controls in a gui
21:55:41 <oerjan> i think fungot might be Gene Ray in disguise
21:55:42 <fungot> oerjan: so if we can get riastradh to beat you about the irc protocol
21:55:42 <ais523> <fungot> oerjan: yet euclid's proof is considered one of the controls in a gui
21:55:42 <fungot> ais523: ' re already dead".
21:56:28 <ais523> Deewiant: not in Win32, anyway, not sure about other GUIs
21:56:33 <oerjan> or maybe fungot is too coherent for that
21:56:33 <fungot> oerjan: paradigm sounds better though :)
21:57:27 <oerjan> fungot: what is it about you and fnords?
21:57:28 <fungot> oerjan: before the copypasta. i bet you someone will make a brainfube.
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12:25:34 <fizzie> MATLAB <3. The function "logspace(x1,x2,n)" returns n logarithmically spaced points in the range [10^x1, 10^x2]... except as a special case, if x2 is pi, the range is [10^x1, pi] and not [10^x1, 10^pi].
12:26:16 <fizzie> It is even implemented by special-casing: if d2 == pi || d2 == single(pi); d2 = log10(d2); end
12:27:10 <fizzie> It's full of this kind of stuff that's obviously done so that old MATLAB code doesn't break.
12:27:55 <tusho> god i hate backwards compatibility
12:28:12 <fizzie> Another example: in normal expressions, && is a short-circuiting logical and, while & always evaluates both sides... except that in a "if foo & bar; ..." statement, and only there, the & operator is also short-circuiting.
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12:31:19 <fizzie> >> if fprintf('foo!\n') | fprintf('bar!\n'); fprintf('ha ha, confused you!\n'); end
12:31:27 <fizzie> >> if ~~(fprintf('foo!\n') | fprintf('bar!\n')); fprintf('ha ha, confused you!\n'); end
12:31:48 <fizzie> The magic falls of if I add a not-not in front. (MATLAB uses ~ as unary logical not.)
12:32:34 <fizzie> Also none of the help pages for &, | or "if" document the insanity. At least "help logspace" mentions the pi thing.
12:33:21 <fizzie> Although I did assume a typo when I saw it there. "LOGSPACE(X1, X2) generates a row vector of 50 logarithmically equally spaced points between decades 10^X1 and 10^X2. If X2 is pi, then the points are between 10^X1 and pi."
12:34:17 <oklogod> yeah that sounds like an examples
12:34:35 <oklogod> because there's nothing else it could sensibly be
12:34:56 <oklogod> btw. that's a pretty weird function even without the pi thing
12:35:23 <fizzie> The three-argument form takes the number of points as the third argument.
12:35:40 <fizzie> I guess it's 50 because it's a "sensible" amount of points if you're using it like plot(logspace(x1, x2), ...).
12:35:56 <oklogod> most likely, that doesn't make it any less ugly.
12:39:43 <oklogod> does matlab suck altogether?
12:39:58 <fizzie> Not completely, but it's definitely not pretty.
12:40:13 <oklogod> how do you solve a set of equations?
12:40:52 <oklogod> i'm not sure what its use was
12:42:27 <fizzie> Like this: (not your example, though)
12:42:29 <fizzie> >> A = [1 2 3;.3 .1 .2;.7 .8 .9]; y = [2;4;6];
12:45:18 <oklogod> feel like explaining a bit?
12:46:56 <fizzie> Well, to use another notation, the previous one solved the set of equations {1*x1 + 0.3*x2 + 0.7*x3 = 2; 2*x1 + 0.1*x2 + 0.8*x3 = 4; 3*x1 + 0.2*x2 + 0.9*x3 = 6}.
12:47:10 <fizzie> Giving x1 = 15.8889, x2 = -4.7778, x3 = -1.4444.
12:48:29 <fizzie> Linear algebra (read: matrices) is what people usually use MATLAB for; it doesn't really do symbolic manipulation at all. Or maybe a little bit, but not much. It's no Mathematica (or Maple).
12:48:40 <oklogod> i thought you were literally solving Ax = y <=> x = y/A, it looked incorrect.
12:49:37 <fizzie> "A\y" is pretty close to "inv(A)*y" except that it's computed differently.
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12:50:05 <fizzie> And it does the "sensible" thing (least-squares solution) if you give it a non-square matrix A, which would correspond to over- or undetermined system of equations.
12:52:10 <fizzie> There is some symbolic equation-solving, though.
12:52:18 <fizzie> >> t = solve('x=2*y', 'y=35*y^2+x');
12:52:39 <fizzie> If I'm reading it right, it seems to say that {x=0, y=0} and {x=-2/35, y=-1/35} are solutions for that.
12:53:37 <fizzie> You'd have to be pretty desperate to use MATLAB for symbolic algebraisms, though.
12:53:38 <oklogod> solving from strings representing the equations isn't terribly elegant
12:53:59 <fizzie> Yes, it's sort-of bolted in and not part of the core functionality.
12:55:55 <tusho> SORT-OF BOLTED IN AND NOT PART OF THE CORE FUNCTIONALITY.
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13:21:48 <oklogod> interesting way to express large numbers: "For example, it can be shown that there are 33, 665, 406 possible expressions over the numbers 1, 3, 7, 10, 25, 50, but only 4, 672, 540 of these expressions evaluate successfully, which is just under 14%."
13:27:32 <tusho> kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkj%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%!!!!!!!!!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
13:27:49 <tusho> `̀̀̀̀̀̀`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~```̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀``̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀
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13:47:31 <tusho> ̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀
13:47:44 <tusho> ̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀bold̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀
13:50:02 <tusho> ̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀
13:57:53 <tusho> ẇ ẇ ẇ ẇ with a dot on top
13:57:58 <tusho> ẇ ẇ ẇ ẇ, ẇ ẇ ẇ ẇ ẇ
13:57:59 <tusho> ẇ ẇ ẇ ẇ with a dot on top
13:58:00 <tusho> ẇ ẇ ẇ ẇ, ẇ ẇ ẇ ẇ ẇ
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14:22:18 <tusho> ais523: wooble wants to steal your madscientistness
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14:29:40 <AnMaster> I'm overengineering another assignment, this time C++ (introductory)
14:37:17 <oklocop> ais523: just as a warning, i want to show you some ideas about muture in the near future, and i may even be hoping for you to help me implement it.
14:37:31 <ais523> hmm... if I have time, I may help
14:37:36 <oklocop> muture is the declarative language i was creating, if you recall the levenshtein example
14:37:42 <ais523> it would be nice to have a concrete target to aim for that isn't too difficult
14:37:50 <ais523> unlike something like Feather which keeps running away when I think about it
14:38:18 <oklocop> muture is very, very declarative.
14:38:44 <oklocop> as it turns out, it actually encompasses the concept of heuristic function for the searches quite neatly
14:38:48 <oklocop> which i didn't even realize before
14:39:03 <oklocop> muture's basic tool is the "make as great as possible" operator >>
14:39:22 <ais523> hmm... will it have a "make equal" operator?
14:39:28 <ais523> you can express that in terms of >>
14:39:33 <ais523> but might not want to for optimisation reasons
14:39:50 <oklocop> the "make equal" is optimized.
14:40:05 <oklocop> anyway, you cannot create more of these operators, they are kinda high-level
14:40:17 <oklocop> also the language is not meant to be that flexible in terms of types and such
14:40:22 <oklocop> you have lists, and numbers
14:40:30 <oklocop> and functions, of course, but no lambdas
14:40:55 <oklocop> there are very neat optimizations you can do, of which i hope to be able to show a few examples soon
14:41:19 <oklocop> the levenshtein example, if i'm not mistaken, should actually directly "compile" to the imperative version everyone knows
14:42:05 <oklocop> by the use of a technique i like to call "memoization structure optimization" (invented on the fly)
14:42:18 <ais523> well, I know what memoization is
14:42:22 <ais523> but how does it apply to structures?
14:42:36 <oklocop> the idea is, you don't have to have a generic memoization
14:42:52 <oklocop> it would use a two-dimensional array for levenshtein
14:43:14 <oklocop> also usually you couldn't actually memoize something like this
14:43:45 <oklocop> because the minimum or maximum of a recursed case may not always lead to the minimum / maximum of the global case
14:44:40 <AnMaster> hm RPN... what is non-reverse polish notation?
14:44:48 <ais523> AnMaster: like RPN but backwards
14:44:52 <ais523> you put the operator at the start
14:45:06 <oklocop> yeah, except both have operators in the same order
14:45:17 <ais523> (2 + 3) * 4 in infix is 2 3 + 4 * in RPN or * + 2 3 4 in Polish
14:45:28 <oklocop> yes, that was a mental typo
14:45:50 <oklocop> buttt, i'm in quite a hurry, actually.
14:45:55 <AnMaster> you can think of RPN as a stack, but I can't create any mental reference frame for Polish...
14:46:11 <oklocop> gotta go buy some shoes, although i'm not actually going to buy shoes but food ->
14:46:22 <oklocop> AnMaster: can you for infix?
14:47:01 <AnMaster> oklocop, you mean "normal" notation? Then well it is possible to think about it, though in certain ways RPN make more sense
14:47:02 <oklocop> also polish notation is what you use when using functions in, for instance, erlang.
14:47:12 <oklocop> plus(minus(1,2),multiply(45,6))
14:47:50 <oklocop> except when you know the arities of functions, you don't need the parens
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14:48:27 <AnMaster> oklocop, You do use parens in Erlang, and I never seen mentioned that it was optional
14:48:38 * AnMaster goes to test in an erlang shell
14:48:44 <tusho> oklocop: i am not going to explain things to AnMaster
14:48:48 <tusho> i value my sanity, yo
14:49:09 <oklocop> i meant, you don't need, coinceptually
14:49:28 <ais523> I think oklocop means that functions are normally written in prefix notation, in all languages
14:49:35 <tusho> in prefix notation
14:49:39 <tusho> if you know the arities of all functions
14:49:41 <tusho> you can omit parens
14:49:42 <ais523> and if the arity is known the parens are redundant because you can deduce them from the arities
14:49:55 <tusho> closest to that is lisp
14:49:56 <AnMaster> tusho, yes except most languages doesn't allow omitting them
14:49:59 <tusho> (+ (* 5 2) (/ 1 0))
14:50:06 <tusho> AnMaster: dfhsu akaesthilru2314892u18902412349u89234
14:50:19 <tusho> oklocop said conceptually, then i did.
14:50:26 <tusho> third time's the charm?
14:50:39 <oklocop> AnMaster: it doesn't, except on top-level.
14:51:08 <AnMaster> but yes then the notation makes sense
14:52:07 <ais523> tusho: actually I think Perl functions work without parens polish-style if you tell it the arities via prototypes
14:52:15 <ais523> Perl prototypes change the syntax of the language like that
14:52:22 <tusho> ais523: oklocop said perl
14:52:33 <ais523> actually, AnMaster said it first
14:52:33 <tusho> but can you do this with prototypes and perl:
14:52:40 <tusho> plus times 5, 2 divide 1, 0
14:52:52 <tusho> plus(times(5,2), divide(1,0))
14:52:58 <tusho> if not... then not really parenless polish notation
14:53:04 <ais523> it would be plus times 5, 2, divide 1, 0
14:53:07 <ais523> and I think it does work
14:53:11 <ais523> apart from the division by 0
14:53:36 <tusho> btw http://trixter.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/the-diskette-that-blew-trixters-mind/
14:55:47 <ais523> tusho: nope, it doesn't work
14:55:58 <tusho> that would make for some great eso code
14:56:06 <tusho> make tons of little functions out of prototypes
14:56:14 <tusho> then write the whole program as one parenless expression full of calls to them
14:56:28 <tusho> you could possibly even get it readable
14:56:36 <ais523> just the Perl parser isn't good enough to figure it out, I think
14:57:29 <tusho> ais523: http://rafb.net/p/6vYIPP46.html
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15:17:46 <fizzie> I don't think Perl's parser really keeps track of the exact arity when parsing code, just some overall "style" of the function. If I do "sub plus ($$) {...}" and try to call it like "print plus 1, 2, "\n";" it just complains about too many arguments to plus, since it has parsed it to be print plus(1, 2, "\n"); The prototype just helps it recognize "plus" as a function.
15:27:41 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's what I think too
15:30:29 <tusho> ais523: quick come up with a name
15:31:37 * tusho notes that he just morphed ais523 into a program
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15:43:09 <AnMaster> tusho, hm if you tell me for what I could _try_ to help
15:43:28 <tusho> AnMaster: telling you what it is could produce a name that makes sense
15:43:31 <tusho> that will not do :D
15:44:35 <tusho> it's a piece of software
15:44:37 <tusho> i will tell you that
15:45:48 <tusho> who said it was sql :P
15:45:50 <fizzie> It's like cheese, except databases.
15:46:04 <AnMaster> tusho, well you didn't say that it wasn't
15:46:14 <tusho> AnMaster: i'm kind of looking for something meaningless :-P
15:46:19 * tusho types random letters
15:47:04 <tusho> AnMaster: IT'S NOT SQL :-P
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15:47:43 <tusho> aka: you'll see, probably, maybe
15:47:53 <tusho> i think i've picked aretea
15:48:04 <tusho> it's easy to type and such
15:48:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | probably ``releases the stream" would be better because java does not distinguish much between the reference and the object it refers to.
15:48:35 <tusho> It's a restaraunt and a World of Warcraft player.
15:48:45 <AnMaster> tusho, ah probably no issue then
15:49:05 <tusho> Actually, this program controls a World of Warcraft bot player that owns a restaraunt in-game
15:49:08 <AnMaster> tusho, or you could call it: ThisIsNotSQL
15:50:27 <ais523> ARAWAD: Recursive Acronym With A Difference
15:50:43 <tusho> That's a ripoff of PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor
15:51:21 <tusho> AnMaster: That needs Gnu = GNU's Not UNG
15:51:45 <tusho> GNU's Not GNU's Not GNU's Not GNU's Not GNU's Not GNU's Not GNU's Not GNU's Not GNU's Not ... Unix is Not GNU's NOT ...
15:52:05 <AnMaster> tusho, well I'm sure you could create that list in Haskell ;P
15:52:21 * AnMaster still thinks infinite lists in a programming language seem rather weird
15:52:35 <tusho> ung = ["unix", "is", "not", gnu]
15:52:40 <tusho> gnu = ["gnu's", "not", ung]
15:52:57 <AnMaster> well I guess it uses references
15:53:07 <tusho> AnMaster: you're thinking way to low level there
15:53:16 <tusho> x is actually a 0-argument function returning x
15:53:20 <tusho> that's how it does the laziness
15:53:27 <tusho> my example is invalid
15:53:28 <ais523> it only bothers to calculate a particular element of the list when you try to find out its value
15:53:35 <tusho> ["unix", "is", "not"] ++ gnu
15:53:37 <tusho> otherwise illtyped
15:53:59 <tusho> Prelude> let ung = ["unix", "is", "not"] ++ gnu; gnu = ["gnu's", "not"] ++ ung
15:54:00 <tusho> ["gnu's","not","unix","is","not","gnu's","not","unix","is","not","gnu's","not","unix","is","not","gnu's","not","unix","is","not","gnu's","not","unix","is","not","gnu's","not","unix","is","n(...)
15:54:38 <ais523> AnMaster: which library is loaded
15:54:39 <tusho> gnu ++ ["'s", "not"] ++ ung
15:54:41 <ais523> Prelude's the standard one
15:54:50 <ais523> sort of like stdio and stdlib, etc, in C
15:55:18 <AnMaster> tusho, it is not an infinite string though
15:55:25 <AnMaster> but I guess strings aren't lists in haskell
15:55:33 <tusho> type String = [Char]
15:55:41 <tusho> Prelude> let ung' = ung' ++ ["is", "not"] ++ gnu'; gnu' = gnu' ++ ["is", "not"] ++ ung'
15:55:42 <tusho> *** Exception: stack overflow
15:55:59 <AnMaster> so it tries to evaluate that all at once
15:56:03 <tusho> of course, it has to
15:56:10 <tusho> to pretty-print it, it needs to get the first element
15:56:20 <tusho> and the first element is the first element by one level of indirection...
15:57:16 <AnMaster> no function to flattern a list?
15:57:28 <ais523> it's easy enough to write
15:57:33 <ais523> it's probably foldl (++)
15:57:34 <AnMaster> no function to lazily flattern a list
15:57:42 <ais523> which would be a lazy flatten
15:57:51 <ais523> foldl's the one that works lazily IIRC
15:57:57 <AnMaster> then you could use that to generate a valid such string
15:58:19 <ais523> Deewiant: are those about Haskell?
15:58:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wonder who registered those
15:58:32 <Deewiant> they're exactly about foldl and foldr :-P
15:58:34 <tusho> AnMaster: same perosn
15:58:52 <tusho> i think they'd be good candidates for an art gallery
15:59:00 <Deewiant> oliver steele, according to whois
15:59:07 <tusho> a wall with "foldl" and "foldr" in text, below them a screen with the respective site on a touchscreen
15:59:12 <tusho> (with big text for clickery, ofc)
15:59:20 <tusho> it is a postmodern statemenet about...
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15:59:31 <AnMaster> tusho, about functional programming?
15:59:39 <tusho> that is far too surface
15:59:43 <tusho> it's about, um, the human status
15:59:58 <AnMaster> tusho, shouldn't the word "lists" be there somewhere
16:00:16 <tusho> what, on foldl.com and foldr.com?
16:00:19 <ais523> OK, why did someone bother two register /two/ domain names for that?
16:00:28 <tusho> registering domains is EASY
16:00:37 <tusho> you just can't appreciate good art...
16:00:46 <Deewiant> ais523: fold.com was probably taken?
16:01:05 <AnMaster> tusho, certainly I can, but that depends on what sort of art you prefer. I even like some modern art, but I prefer classical stuff
16:01:08 <tusho> EXPENSIVE? domains?
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16:01:22 <tusho> yes, £4 a year is very expensive
16:02:39 <tusho> AnMaster: i was just taking the piss, but i guess that's a bit silly of me since I like this: http://www.qotile.net/blog/wp/?p=564 (Note: Websites background is designed to destroy your eyes with its crazy animation.)
16:03:13 <AnMaster> (Note: I got gif animation repeat turned off)
16:03:57 <tusho> after a while it just stops
16:04:01 <tusho> and then starts up again for no reason
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16:08:00 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge_Unshackled <-- hm, ais523.... gcc-malbolge but for that turing complete version?
16:08:35 <Slereah> Soon, we'll get our programming project
16:08:40 <Slereah> And I have an unclean urge
16:08:54 <Slereah> I want to hand in, with the C version, a Scheme version and a Python version.
16:09:13 <Slereah> Or possibly some more efficient functional language
16:09:35 <ais523> hmm... anyone know a good guide on Ocaml?
16:09:43 <ais523> I think my university project for this year's Ocaml-based
16:10:03 <Slereah> Although really, our programming projects are usually really low level
16:10:09 <ais523> tusho: original Malbolge definitely isn't
16:10:16 <Slereah> Which is why they teach us so little of it
16:10:16 <ais523> because it has limited storage, thus is a finite-state machine
16:10:22 <tusho> ais523: that's not part of the spec
16:10:33 <ais523> memory's listed to 59049 10-trit words
16:10:47 <tusho> malbolge is 'turing complete beyond memory constrains'
16:10:53 <tusho> aka...all real-life systems ever
16:11:27 <ais523> except that it's arguable whether 59049 words is enough to do anything useful
16:11:51 <ais523> it's easily enough for many other more practical languages
16:12:04 <ais523> AnMaster: also I have basically no idea how to compile into Malbolge
16:14:18 -!- Slereah has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | probably ``releases the stream" would be better because java does not distinguish much between the reference and the object it refers to - Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light..
16:15:15 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !lostkng look.
16:15:21 <tusho> we have no manual topics in HERE mister
16:15:47 <ais523> there was a game of Lost Kingdoms going on in #esoteric?
16:16:05 <ais523> anyway, I never got past the bit with the animal that eats you and which seems impossible to attack
16:16:23 <ais523> nor did I ever bother to finish reverse-engineering Lost Kingdoms back to the original source so I could see how to solve it
16:17:45 <tusho> ais523: ask the author?
16:18:50 <ais523> it's a common phrase in English
16:18:55 <AnMaster> brainfuck should be pretty hard to reverse engineer...
16:19:02 <ais523> but I have the source to BFBASIC
16:19:19 <ais523> so by analysing BFBASIC to see how it generates code I may have a shot at decompiling Lost Kingdoms
16:19:33 <ais523> probably I can't be bothered, though
16:19:37 <AnMaster> ais523, except they ran some optimiser over it iirc
16:20:03 <AnMaster> that change +-- into - and such
16:20:20 <ais523> but that's less important
16:20:24 <ais523> decoding the program flow helps
16:20:29 <ais523> and extracting strings would particularly help
16:20:35 <ais523> for a lost-kingdoms-like program
16:24:10 <AnMaster> ais523, does gcc-bf optimise away ++-- and such?
16:24:19 <ais523> it will do in a postprocessing pass
16:24:24 <ais523> but I don't think that can be generated in the first place
16:24:37 <ais523> it does optimise away ><, which can be
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16:37:07 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you handle -c option?
16:37:13 <AnMaster> that is object files not executables
16:38:26 <ais523> but most of gcc-bf's processing is done in asm
16:38:35 <ais523> which it converts to brainfuck right at the end
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16:40:23 <ais523> tusho was halfway through a sentence in query and left...
16:40:26 <ais523> I wonder what the problem is
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16:44:27 <AnMaster> ais523, network issues I guess
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17:58:33 <AnMaster> C++ backtraces are very hard to read IMO
17:58:37 <AnMaster> std::basic_istream<char, std::char_traits<char> >& std::getline<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >(std::basic_istream<char, std::char_traits<char> >&, std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >&, char)
17:58:59 <ais523> well, that gives all the information you need
17:59:13 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but it takes like 10 seconds to find the function name
17:59:33 <ais523> that is the function name
18:00:11 <AnMaster> std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >& <-- isn't that same as std::string&
18:01:02 <tusho> AnMaster: nontrivial to get that
18:01:07 <tusho> impossible, probably
18:01:20 <AnMaster> tusho, depends, it could store that in the debug info
18:01:37 <AnMaster> since I already used -ggdb3 I obviously didn't bind binary size ;P
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18:15:35 <GregorR> Why Marsh is the greatest grocery store: Because it's the only place where you can buy Food Club brand bleach.
18:16:35 <oerjan> and a good evening to you, Mr. ais523
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19:12:50 <tusho> "I'm currently looking for (v)servers running Debian with root access via ssh, located in Germany. If possible, the server should be free."
19:13:01 <tusho> a vps/dedi, with root access, in germany... for free
19:14:29 <oerjan> free as in speech, maybe
19:14:37 <oerjan> as long as you don't deny the holocaust
19:14:52 <tusho> nearlyfreespeech.net allows stuff like holocaust denialists i believe
19:15:05 <oerjan> well then it is probably not in germany
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19:51:24 <tusho> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=899&uid=swg21086803
19:51:27 <tusho> Notes error: 'Document has too many paragraphs - it must be split into several documents'
19:58:19 <oerjan> is this that OOXML standard you were discussing earlier? >:)
19:58:35 <oerjan> or perhaps it's that European Constitution thing...
19:58:56 <oerjan> (or whatever it's called now)
20:00:39 <oerjan> oh it's not an example.
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20:18:37 * oerjan wonders who the heck Viramakarita is.
20:19:09 <oerjan> all the links are in french, and seem to be that quote or similar
20:19:58 <oerjan> Slereah: have you heard about him/her?
20:21:26 <tusho> i just lost the game
20:21:29 <oerjan> replacing k by c gave one link, in english
20:21:44 <oerjan> i avoid losing the game by rejecting the rules
20:22:10 <tusho> Rule 1. You are playing the game
20:22:14 <tusho> no getting out of that
20:22:24 <ais523> the game deludes its players into thinking everyone is playing
20:22:30 <ais523> those of us who aren't playing know better
20:22:32 <tusho> ais523: look, the game doesn't actually make sense
20:22:35 <tusho> and can't make people play
20:22:37 <tusho> everyone knows that
20:22:42 <tusho> it's called "but it's funnier this way"
20:23:08 <oerjan> but rejecting the rules can be funny if you do it high-brow enough
20:23:22 <oerjan> say, write a philosophic tome on the concept
20:23:30 <tusho> oerjan: yes, but you didn't
20:24:52 <oerjan> ah, vikramacarita gives more hits
20:26:21 <oerjan> tusho: i alluded to it, which is obviously funnier than reading a 600 page tome
20:28:35 <GregorR> If rule 1 of the game is that you're playing the game, that's a null rule: If you're not playing the game, you're not following its rules, so the fact that one of its rules is that you're playing the game is irrelevant. If you are following the rules, you're playing the game, so the fact that a rule says you're playing the game is redundant.
20:28:49 <tusho> GregorR: i believe you missed the part where I said "everybody knows that"
20:29:15 <GregorR> I like to respond to individual lines out of context :P
20:34:43 <oerjan> ah finally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikram%C4%81ditya
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21:28:56 <tusho> taking up aretea/ is a bit annoying, I could do _aretea/ but that's just security via obscurity
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22:52:52 <tusho> it feels a lot later than it is
22:54:02 <oerjan> hm you're in Europe, not in one of those places that just changed out of DST
22:54:20 <oerjan> (i think there are some aren't there)
22:56:35 <tusho> it feels like 23:30
22:56:54 <oerjan> it's 23:56 here if that helps :D
23:00:12 <oerjan> ayeeh! it all zeroed out!
23:01:52 <tusho> oerjan: Happy tomorrow.
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23:27:28 <tusho> Meanwhile http://www.sshkeygen.com/ is still up
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11:37:47 <Slereah> Maybe I should get the Linux shirt :o
11:38:12 <Slereah> I wonder if it would be considered cheating in programming exams
11:38:58 <Slereah> A bunch of useful stuff on the penguin, apparently
11:40:11 <ais523> it's not clear enough to see what data's there
11:40:19 <ais523> but my guess is it's mostly POSIX shell commands
11:41:13 <Slereah> Which would be nice. I really suck at it.
11:43:27 <Slereah> Man. I really hate the online stuff that won't send you your password
11:43:33 <Slereah> It's always about generating a new one.
11:43:41 <ais523> Slereah: it doesn't know your password
11:43:41 <Slereah> Fuck it, I'll just write it down.
11:43:52 <ais523> that's why it generates a new one
11:44:00 <Slereah> Yeah, but putting it on a post-it might also be bad security.
11:44:17 <ais523> the database will only store a hash of the password
11:44:23 <ais523> so the password can be checked, but not retrieved
11:44:25 <Slereah> But damn, that's what I'm gonna do
11:44:45 <Slereah> I'm tired of generating new passwords for the shit I almost never use
11:48:02 <Slereah> What I do love, though, is the current euro-dollar exchange rate :D
11:50:04 <Slereah> I feel richer than a lion if that lion was rich
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13:50:25 <ais523> I have to go in an hour or so, btw
13:50:28 <ais523> but I'll be back later
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14:14:41 <tusho> http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/31/35/31_35_mm_bjs_reaction.html
14:15:00 * ais523 apologises for all the quit/join spam
14:15:12 <ais523> also I sent a ping to myself about 20 seconds ago and it hasn't returned yet, no idea if any of you can see this then
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14:16:30 <tusho> ais523: a news article with an unfortunate/possibly-intentional headline
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14:19:50 <ais523> tusho: you know how traceroute works?
14:19:54 <ais523> my connection problems remind me of that but with the IRC connect sequence
14:19:56 <ais523> or possibly the way they sequence DNA
14:20:00 <ais523> stopping at a random point and seeing what the value is at that point
14:20:12 <ais523> also, half the time I manage to stay online long enough to see your paste
14:20:28 <ais523> the other half I lose my connection during the connect sequence
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14:23:36 <ais523_> that's probably a record for bad connection quality for me
14:23:38 <ais523_> although I've done pretty badly in the past
14:23:43 <tusho> ais523_: what do you want the version string to be
14:23:44 <ais523_> ais523: I like your quit message
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14:23:50 <ais523> nobody's going to see this line anyway, probably, so I may as well write whatever I like
14:24:08 <tusho> now pick a VERSION reply
14:24:09 <ais523> tusho: what is the version string in this context?
14:24:14 <tusho> CTCP VERSION reply
14:24:20 <ais523> make it a short esoprogram
14:24:29 <ais523> ,[[-].,] or something like that
14:24:39 <tusho> how about 'netcat'
14:24:46 <tusho> people will think you're the fastest typer ever
14:24:46 <ais523> no, I don't like lying about that
14:25:08 <ais523> when people CTCP version me and get "netcat" 30 seconds later, it's because I replied with "netcat"!
14:25:26 <tusho> olol, it listens on 31337 by default
14:25:37 <tusho> you can tell this program was written by 31337 irc users in 1999
14:25:40 <ais523> I wonder how many other programs use that particular port?
14:26:12 <ais523> unfortunately port 523's a bit too low to be usable
14:26:19 <ais523> and 415523 is too high
14:26:34 <tusho> ais523: bouncer name?
14:26:51 <tusho> happy fluffy puppy irc bouncer
14:27:02 <ais523> but put flourescent in there somewhere
14:27:14 <tusho> happy fluffy flourescent puppy irc bouncer
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14:29:09 <ais523> my pings aren't returning again...
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14:35:46 <ais523_> hmm... fifth attempt lucky
14:35:52 <tusho> /msg me a bouncer pass
14:35:59 <tusho> it won't be tmp, but it won't help people impersonate you
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14:38:08 <ais523> actually, I'm giving up for a couple of hours or so, it isn't worth trying to stay connected under these conditions
14:38:13 <ais523> hopefully I'll be back later, and I'll use an entirely different connection then
14:38:20 <ais523> also, self-ping time was 38 seconds just then
14:38:24 <tusho> i'll leave your password as puppy then,
14:38:34 <ais523> well, say it in the channel, will yo?
14:38:37 <ais523> you'll have to change it now
14:38:43 <tusho> doesn't help people actually impersonate
14:38:46 <tusho> it doesn't nickserv
14:38:49 <ais523_> that's to get connected at all
14:38:49 <ais523_> how long it will last remains to be seen
14:38:49 -!- ais523_ has quit (Success).
14:38:55 <ais523> also I don't know where to put the password
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14:45:40 <ais523> i am testing the bouncer
14:46:08 <tusho> ais523: you are now disconnected
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15:05:15 <tusho> ̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀à̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀̀a
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15:33:52 <ais523> tusho: I'm on a different connection this time
15:34:00 <tusho> ais523: i set up the bouncer
15:34:08 <tusho> might be worth using for futureproofing?
15:34:24 <ais523> might just be better never to go into the Library again if I want a reliable connection
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15:37:27 <tusho> ais523: ya read me?
15:37:53 <ais523> it's not set up properly yet
15:37:55 <tusho> ais523: create an artificial network drop to test that?
15:38:00 <ais523> let me finish setting it up
15:38:00 <tusho> say "going now" before you do
15:38:04 <ais523> and ok, dropping the network now
15:38:04 <tusho> i'll test pinging you after that
15:38:36 <tusho> ais523: did it tell you about my pings?
15:38:36 <ais523> I saw 8 9 and 10 in realtime
15:38:43 <ais523> the others came in a batch
15:38:48 <ais523> presumably being replayed
15:39:07 <tusho> also, you have an @eso-std.org hostname now
15:39:25 * tusho considers settin' up sum of dat bouncer for himself
15:39:45 <tusho> think i'd need to recompile
15:39:47 <tusho> meh, i'll do it later
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15:40:06 <tusho> Hm.. I wonder how it'd handle like 5000 messages overnight?
15:40:13 <tusho> ... Probably just lag my irc client for a few seconds sending them all
15:40:31 <ais523> tusho: I want to test something
15:40:59 <tusho> yeah... lots of monkeys
15:41:28 <ais523> ok, it remembers my identifiedness between connects
15:41:30 <ais523> no reason not to reidentify though just in case
15:41:42 <tusho> ais523: yeah, it doesn't disconnect from the server
15:41:43 <ais523> also, this way I always win at the hi tusho game
15:41:46 <tusho> i never saw you leave
15:41:48 <ais523> because you have no way to know whether I'm online
15:42:01 <tusho> it doesn't respond to ctcps when you're offline
15:42:03 <tusho> that's a feature apparently
15:42:06 <tusho> although i have no idea why...
15:42:22 <ais523> presumably so you don't ping people and think they're online
15:43:01 <tusho> ais523: disconnect for a minute will you? Wanna test if it sets away.
15:44:38 <ais523> could you get it to hide my IP on disconnect easily?
15:44:52 <tusho> ais523: hmm... i think so
15:45:02 <ais523> that way it would be an anonymising bouncer, as well as a connection-sustaining bouncer
15:45:09 <ais523> and if it's easy to anonymise you may as well
15:45:12 <ais523> (if it isn't I don't mind)
15:45:16 <tusho> ais523: yes, it is, a sec
15:45:39 <tusho> ais523: gonna disconnect the bouncer to add me as an admin so I can set that, you'll have an outage of a few minutes, OK?
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15:48:15 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | help ps kill i eof flush show ls.
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16:08:06 <ais523> hmm... does anyone here know OCaml?
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16:08:28 <tusho> but i know people who know it
16:08:38 <ais523> well, I'll just have to learn it this afternoon, then
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16:09:45 <tusho> ais523: here's a general overview from what i know
16:10:25 <tusho> it's like Haskell, except it's strict, there aren't any typeclass thingies (floating point is +. instead of + - ugly things like that, because of it), it has OOP-style classes, and various other differences.
16:10:37 <tusho> fast enough for system tools, i don't think an os would be much of a stretch
16:11:10 <ais523> that's pretty similar information to what I know about it
16:11:31 <tusho> ais523: http://www.ocaml-tutorial.org/?
16:11:34 <Deewiant> "like Haskell except it's strict" :-P
16:11:48 <Deewiant> which means, to me, that it's very unlike Haskell.
16:11:49 <tusho> the guy who wrote that is a crazy ocaml programmer guy
16:11:53 <tusho> Deewiant: whatever
16:13:56 <ais523> tusho: on my OS, the programming tutorials are stored in the repos
16:13:59 <ais523> so I don't even need to use the Web
16:14:07 <tusho> ais523: ocaml-tutorial isn't an official one
16:14:13 <tusho> i tried the official one once, it kind of sucked
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16:16:09 <ais523> heh, w3m even works with the mouse
16:16:30 <tusho> i thought you said without
16:16:39 <ais523> I'm used to using it without
16:16:46 <ais523> way better than most graphical browsers at keyboard use
16:20:28 <tusho> Meanwhile, pigs are now officially referred to as 'pre-bacon'.
16:21:04 <ais523> hmm... OCaml claim to have half the performance of C
16:21:10 <ais523> which is pretty impressive for a functional language
16:21:23 <ais523> I can believe it too, it's effectively decompiling the programs into the imperative equivalent wherever that makes sense
16:21:41 <tusho> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all
16:21:57 <tusho> gcc, ats, g++, java, lisaac, ghc, fortran, lisp
16:22:01 <tusho> that is not haskell
16:22:32 <Deewiant> the situation in that regard is better on the 4-core side
16:22:41 <Deewiant> tusho: but, have you looked at ATS? it's much worse
16:22:49 <tusho> ATS appeared out of nowhere
16:23:02 <ais523> PHP's last on that list?
16:23:08 <ais523> maybe we should enter some esolangs
16:23:13 <ais523> and challenge the bottom of the scale
16:23:24 <tusho> ais523: ruby isn't even _on_ that list
16:23:26 <Deewiant> ruby's not on the list, probably because it was too slow ;-P
16:23:36 <tusho> probably for the best
16:23:36 <ais523> ruby will be on the list eventually
16:23:42 <ais523> just the programs haven't finished running yet
16:23:44 <Deewiant> but you can still look at the old one which had a lot more langs
16:23:45 <Deewiant> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all
16:23:53 <Deewiant> and ruby is at the bottom of /that/ list.
16:24:02 <Deewiant> a bit over twice as slow ar php.
16:24:07 <ais523> actually, they said they aren't putting langs there with more than a couple of timeouts
16:24:08 <tusho> so, uh, in 2054...
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16:24:16 <ais523> maybe Ruby was timing out on a couple of the projects
16:25:05 <ais523> also, I reckon I could get way below either of the C implementations there using gcc-bf, once it's finished
16:25:28 <ais523> hmm... #esoteric is one of those places where doing badly at benchmarks is a sport
16:25:51 <ais523> maybe one of these days we'll get a hello world which takes over 24 hours to run
16:26:19 <Deewiant> the quad-core benchmarks, with all the unsafeGHC# entries set to a weight of 0: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all&xfullcpu=1&xmem=0&xloc=0&binarytrees=1&chameneosredux=1&fannkuch=0&fasta=1&knucleotide=0&mandelbrot=1&meteor=1&nbody=0&pidigits=1®exdna=1&revcomp=0&spectralnorm=0&threadring=1&calc=calculate
16:26:33 <tusho> by a person on everything2.com
16:26:40 <tusho> it had an md5 of the string hello world
16:26:43 <tusho> and it randomly generates strings
16:26:45 <tusho> and prints it out if it matches
16:26:53 <ais523> I meant a genuine version
16:26:56 <tusho> Deewiant: cuz it was in 2000 or something
16:27:04 <ais523> maybe by chaining together esocompilers
16:27:05 <Deewiant> tusho: the md5 is still pointless
16:27:12 <Deewiant> just plain randomizing would be just as slow :-P
16:27:18 <ais523> also, is hugeurl.com down?
16:27:37 <Deewiant> http://hugeurl.wiggy.net/ exists
16:27:39 <ais523> although I can agree with Deewiant to some extent
16:29:45 <ais523> Google confirms that hugeurl.com used to exist
16:29:52 <ais523> nowadays it's a 403 though
16:33:54 <ais523> yep, SKI doesn't work in OCaml, it must have decent typing
16:35:44 * ais523 is always annoyed that combinators don't type properly
16:36:00 <ais523> well, not those ones, anyway
16:36:25 <Deewiant> although hmm, do you mean specifically Ix -> x, Kxy -> x, Sxyz -> xz(yz)?
16:36:53 <ais523> as it requires the infinite type 'a -> 'a -> 'a -> ...
16:37:18 <ais523> btw the Haskell and OCaml interps I have give pretty different error messages for that situation, but both are useful
16:38:53 <Deewiant> I'm sure the fix-point combinator can be defined in ocaml somehow, though, so that's not such a big loss ;-)
16:39:56 <ais523> hmm... OCaml doesn't allow things to be defined in terms of themself, at least not variables
16:40:05 <ais523> let a = [1] @ a;; is an error
16:40:32 <Deewiant> I think such is somewhat annoying
16:40:38 <ais523> This kind of expression is not allowed as right-hand side of `let rec'
16:41:27 <Deewiant> maybe it recognizes that that would loop infinitely?
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16:49:22 <tusho> ais523: why are you learning it?
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16:50:25 <ais523> tusho: my project for this year will probably be written in OCaml
16:50:31 <ais523> or at least interface with OCaml code a lot
16:50:36 <tusho> ephemist or ephemerist?
16:50:48 <ais523> I've never heard the first word
16:50:58 <ais523> but the second would presumably mean "someone who specialises in ephemera"
16:51:05 <ais523> which is a pretty strange meaning to be saying in the first place
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16:51:21 <tusho> ephemerists are those who like ephemera and often like to preserve it
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16:51:47 <tusho> i'm an ephemerist in that i absolutely hate things expiring so i try and preserve info as much as possible...
16:51:56 <tusho> but i think perhaps ephemist is more correct
16:52:22 <ais523> oklocop: it's to do with hardware synthesis
16:52:59 <tusho> ephemist gets basically no results
16:53:02 <tusho> ephemerist gets a ton
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17:10:53 <tusho> I wonder how much lag eso-std.org gives u
17:11:06 <ais523> which isn't really that accurate
17:11:35 <tusho> the difference between
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17:11:39 <tusho> and you -> bouncer -> server
17:11:50 <ais523> it depends on how approximately en route the bouncer is
17:12:00 <tusho> ais523: of course, our pings will always be immediate
17:12:03 <ais523> if someone's been filling the Internet with duff routing information again, it may even be quicker
17:12:07 <tusho> since psyBNC will respond to them directly
17:12:10 <tusho> as we're on the same server
17:12:28 <tusho> so no freenode involved there
17:13:27 <tusho> ais523: silly wabbit, why not d$?
17:14:00 <tusho> ais523: there has to be a sed->perl compiler using perl regexps
17:14:10 <ais523> I've never looked at its source though
17:14:18 <tusho> right, then say your corrections are in s2p
17:25:18 <tusho> In a stunning break from tradition, this project is going well.
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17:26:38 <tusho> the * glob ignores .files
17:27:01 <tusho> so "rm -rf ~/my-aretea/*" will work fine
17:27:10 <tusho> since all the important stuff is in a dot-directory
17:27:16 <tusho> even so, i'm uneasy actually doing that...
17:27:37 <ais523> you could use a [] glob to whitelist various first characters
17:27:52 <ais523> ~/my-aretea/[a-zA-Z0-9]*
17:27:59 <tusho> most likely i'll just let the user easily use it to clear the cache
17:28:11 <tusho> instead of manually doing it
17:29:05 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:30:35 <Slereah> What was that website, with the programming language in plain english?
17:30:54 <tusho> http://www.osmosian.com/
17:32:17 <tusho> "What if I'm not happy?
17:32:20 <tusho> Try chocolate cake."
17:32:25 <tusho> How about a nice big cup of YOUR LANGUAGE SUCKS ASS
17:32:52 <tusho> I like how the purchasing stuff can't even work
17:33:00 <tusho> card number + expiry + name + email
17:33:04 <tusho> you need to know the card type and such...
17:33:31 <tusho> var calfilelocation="cal-3037.zip";
17:33:31 <tusho> var samplefilelocation="sample.zip";
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17:57:36 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
17:59:33 <tusho> [[I see the case of something that you CANNOT do but are privileged to
17:59:33 <tusho> do as something like if the government granted you a license to
17:59:33 <tusho> operate a faster-than-light vehicle powered by a perpetual motion
17:59:34 <tusho> machine on public roads.]]
18:10:00 <Slereah> tusho : You could try it for all cards:
18:11:03 <Slereah> I love the "What language is it written in? Plain English".
18:11:17 <Slereah> Yeah, and not in Assembly.
18:11:27 <Slereah> since all processors are in Plain English.
18:11:58 <Slereah> He conjured a Plain English compiler from space and wrote Plain English in it.
18:13:31 <Slereah> https://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
18:13:40 <Slereah> What our customers could be saying, if held at gunpoint.
18:19:01 <Slereah> "It should be noted that all this functionality is embodied in a single, stand-alone, native-code executable less than one megabyte in size."
18:19:11 <Slereah> Feh! I could create ten languages in less space than that!
18:20:46 <tusho> I love how they think Noam Chomsky would somehow benefit from a programming language with keywords from English
18:22:08 <Slereah> Maybe he meant Nim Chimpski
18:22:11 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky
18:37:00 <Slereah> This language is the Hitler of programming language D:
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18:38:38 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
18:38:56 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
18:39:00 <tusho> Slereah: just mentally replace 'kludge' and 'whore' with 'system'
18:40:28 <Slereah> I wonder if they did anything since the last time I visited
18:44:30 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:47:48 <tusho> -psyBNC: Tue Sep 30 17:47:30 :connect from sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk
18:47:49 <tusho> -psyBNC: Tue Sep 30 17:47:30 :User ais523 logged in.
18:52:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:59:10 -!- Corun has joined.
18:59:11 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:09:16 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
19:11:35 <optbot> tusho: What you're saying is roughly equivalent to "I student."
19:11:35 <optbot> fungot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarball#Tarbombs
19:11:36 <fungot> optbot: yes there is, foof? it strikes me as something that works for a certain amount of experience in building software.
19:11:37 <optbot> fungot: there are two things it's good at
19:11:38 <optbot> fungot: you can change it
19:11:38 <fungot> optbot: i was being sarcastic
19:11:39 <fungot> optbot: yeah, that in perl multi dimensional arrays are flattened because it suited the author best at the moment
19:11:40 <optbot> fungot: GOOD - www. redirects to www.www
19:11:47 <tusho> optbot: fungot: You guys have the best conversations
19:11:48 <optbot> tusho: ok that's insane
19:11:48 <fungot> tusho: testing it, that is
19:11:55 <optbot> tusho: i'm sure there's foo-in-jvm for some useful values of foo
19:12:01 <tusho> optbot: JVM for OS!
19:12:06 <tusho> optbot: anyway. fungot your opinions?
19:12:06 <optbot> tusho: and flip the accept/reject states
19:12:06 <fungot> tusho: keymaker probably wanted a c version faster than list? because smalltalk has it?
19:12:13 <tusho> fungot: that makes no sense
19:12:20 <ais523> actually I rather like the idea of a JVM OS
19:12:35 <tusho> http://www.jnode.org/
19:12:41 <ais523> except it should have a #esoteric twist
19:12:52 <ais523> such as be portable to a huge number of different windowing systems, despite being an OS
19:13:00 <ais523> as a sort of abstraction inversion
19:13:14 <ais523> it should try to model all sorts of low-level stuff but access it through high level Java stuff
19:13:20 <tusho> jnode is disturbingly useful looking:
19:13:21 <tusho> http://www.jnode.org/screenshots/jnode-0.2.7/5.png
19:13:24 <tusho> it runs swing and everything
19:13:36 <ais523> (the classic example is implementing threading constructs in ADA)
19:13:38 <oerjan> an inside-out software hierarchy!
19:14:02 <ais523> heh, on jnode presumably Swing and AWT would be the same
19:14:11 <ais523> because Swing /is/ the native windowing system...
19:14:21 -!- oc2k1 has joined.
19:14:33 <tusho> AWT is probably unimplemented
19:14:36 <tusho> or if not, mapped to swing
19:14:43 <ais523> mapped to Swing would be my guess
19:14:55 <ais523> whoops, someone new has joined the channel, and we're discussing Java
19:15:28 <ais523> <Uleibheist> Your comment is subject to review, and will normally be included below: the review is simply to exclude unacceptable language (such as Java).
19:15:37 <tusho> ais523: where's that from? :-)
19:15:39 <ais523> also, I probably got that nick wrong
19:15:46 <ais523> it's Claudio Calvelli's IRC nick I think
19:15:50 <ais523> but I probably typoed it as it looks wrong
19:16:19 <ais523> and more specifically it's from the CLC-INTERCAL guestbook
19:17:45 <oerjan> what's the preferred GUI toolkit for INTERCAL?
19:18:09 <ais523> at a guess, GTK, or possibly Win32 API, as it interfaces most easily with C
19:18:23 <ais523> but that doesn't have GUI toolkit bindings really
19:18:43 <oerjan> oh so INTERCAL has a good C interface?
19:18:46 <ais523> but AFAIK there are no real INTERCAL GUI programs
19:18:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:18:59 <ais523> oerjan: C-INTERCAL allows linking of INTERCAL programs with C programs
19:19:12 <ais523> it's all very simple, you write COME FROMs and other INTERCAL-like flow commands in the C program
19:19:30 <ais523> well, if you follow the instructions, anyway
19:19:36 <ais523> which tell you not to do a huge list of things that could break it
19:19:43 <ais523> mostly because C doesn't really like cross-function gotos
19:20:15 -!- Corun_ has joined.
19:20:21 <oc2k1> that would smash the stack....
19:20:40 <ais523> if you're interested, http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/src/ick_ec.h is the source
19:20:43 <ais523> and it doesn't smash the stack
19:20:57 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun.
19:20:59 -!- olsner has joined.
19:21:03 <ais523> it longjmps out of as many functions as it can safely jump out of without losing data, then calls the function you're jumping into and gotos the relevant line
19:21:24 <ais523> all nice and transparent to the user, except it makes something of a hash out of all the variables on the stack
19:22:02 <tusho> http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/src/ick_ec.h is the kind of code I wish I could write so I could write all day
19:22:22 <ais523> that's one of the only pieces of code I think I ever pseudocoded beforehand
19:22:25 <ais523> to make sure it was right
19:22:57 <ais523> luckily it works great in a debugger so long as you set suffficiently many breakpoints and don't try to single-step past any of the longjmps
19:23:14 <ais523> basically when you encounter a longjmp, you hit c and hope you remembered to set a breakpoint on the other side
19:23:31 <ais523> the longjmps are in the associated .c file, though, not the .h
19:23:45 <ais523> the .c file handles the INTERCAL end of things, the .h handles the C end of things
19:23:59 * ais523 considers renaming ick_ec.h to ick_ec.i just to get the symmetry perfect
19:30:36 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host).
19:30:36 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:51:23 <tusho> in another unexpected turn, the project is still going well, and i managed to tweak a bit of it without the whole thing falling down just now
19:51:37 <tusho> i wonder when my brain was replaced...
19:52:03 <ais523> tusho: no, it's just that the laws of physics were repealed last week
19:52:10 <tusho> a scam, i suppose?
19:52:11 <ais523> some sort of scam involving a Fountain...
19:52:19 <tusho> i never liked fountains anyway
19:52:29 <oerjan> except for the strong force
19:52:40 <ais523> oerjan: they were fully repealed, but people conform to them anyway mostly due to custom
19:53:08 <oerjan> hm, that's not actually a change. we always did that.
19:53:24 <ais523> going against them gets you some funny looks and a 3-in-20 chance of being hunted down by a pack of vigilante ninjas
19:54:01 <oerjan> the ninjas are not a problem, unless they disobey the laws too, which would be hypocritical.
19:54:29 <ais523> oerjan: they're ninjas, there's no way to tell if they disobey the laws or not
19:55:15 <oerjan> well even better, that means they'll be occupied hunting down each other
19:56:05 <ais523> that's why there's only a 3-in-20 chance
19:57:20 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:57:32 <oerjan> anyway another trick is to only break the laws in such a way that it looks like they haven't been broken.
19:58:12 <ais523> given that this is the laws of physics we're talking about, couldn't you break the laws in such a way that they actually hadn't been broken?
19:59:00 <oerjan> changing the past is highly dangerous, as you should well know
20:01:12 <tusho> my mac's fan went on full blas, it does that sometimes
20:01:16 <tusho> only stops when i restart
20:01:22 <tusho> probably should get it checked out
20:01:25 <tusho> but yeah, didn't want it to catch fire
20:01:42 <oerjan> tusho: you will be surprised to know we didn't notice
20:01:53 <tusho> because of the bouncer
20:02:01 <tusho> because -psyBNC told him.
20:02:05 <tusho> since he's on the same bouncer
20:02:20 <oerjan> psychic powers now... let me call those ninjas
20:02:20 <ais523> tusho's motivation for configuring a system which makes us both appear to be always online, except to each other, is clearly to confuse #esoteric
20:02:46 <tusho> its easy to figure out if we're online
20:03:22 <tusho> i saw everything that happened when i was gone
20:03:22 <ais523> oh, and happy Australian Mailman Reminders Day, everyone!
20:03:26 <tusho> since my bouncer told me about it
20:03:29 <oerjan> hah, you're only doing it to ESCAPE MY MIGHTY FLYSWATTER
20:03:37 <tusho> ais523: ha, last time i said that AnMaster yelled at me because i just made it up
20:03:48 <tusho> and i told him that it was simple, i linked him to mailman reminder day definitions
20:03:49 <ais523> it's become something of a tradition, though, I think
20:03:55 <oklocop> tusho: can i be on your bouncer too
20:03:56 <tusho> and then said it was the ones from australia
20:04:09 <oklocop> i'm not sure i want to, but i want to know whether i have the opportunity!
20:04:15 <ais523> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Happy+Mailman+Reminders+Day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a
20:04:21 -!- oklocop has changed nick to oklopod.
20:04:22 <tusho> oklocop: it makes you connected forever
20:04:26 <tusho> even if your internet connection goes down
20:04:29 <tusho> when you reconnect
20:04:33 <tusho> it spews to you all the lines that you missed
20:04:34 <oklopod> yes i've licked bouncers before
20:04:35 <tusho> while you were gone
20:04:35 <ais523> first hit: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-April/016708.html
20:04:42 <tusho> oklopod: yes but most don't do the latter
20:04:49 <tusho> ais523: yes, but AnMaster took issue with the 'australian' modifier
20:04:55 <ais523> see, the Python mailing lists had us beaten by years
20:05:04 <ais523> tusho: well it happens 12 hours earlier in Australia
20:05:07 <tusho> oklopod: unfortunately since it just slams it back at you, they all are from the same timestamp
20:05:09 <ais523> and a day before for us here in the UK
20:05:10 <tusho> but who cares about timestamps
20:05:26 <ais523> tusho: get it to send you the messages retroactively?
20:05:44 <tusho> best would be to have it a specific protocol
20:05:46 <tusho> instead of just an irc server
20:05:51 <tusho> so that it can send the right time
20:06:17 <ais523> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/search?query=tag%3Amailman
20:06:22 <tusho> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/search?query=tag%3Amailman
20:06:26 <tusho> is where i discovered it
20:06:33 <tusho> and now i consider it my duty to spread it everywhere
20:06:35 <oerjan> oh _those_ reminders. i get a couple from Agora
20:06:51 <ais523> http://chris-lamb.co.uk/2008/02/01/happy-mailman-day-sun/
20:06:53 <tusho> oerjan: BRINGS YOU BACK
20:06:53 <oerjan> i thought this was about physical mailman :D
20:07:24 <tusho> the plural of the program mailman is mailmans
20:07:28 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:07:31 <tusho> as the plural of computer mouses is mouses.
20:07:43 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:08:40 <ais523> oerjan: tusho's just trying to teach AnMaster bad English, I reckon
20:09:07 <tusho> its just how i use it
20:09:11 <oerjan> there once were three mice who lived in three hice
20:09:14 <ais523> m4wrap(`this is how to do a quit message')there's something hidden at the start of this line that none of you can see
20:09:20 <ais523> but when I quit you'll be able to see it
20:09:22 <tusho> ais523: i can see it!
20:09:25 <tusho> ais523: m4wrap(`this is how to do a quit message')there's something hidden at the start of this line that none of you can see
20:09:34 <ais523> then the m4wrap will triggerr
20:09:41 <ais523> until then you have no way of knowing its there
20:09:52 <ais523> (N.B. if this fails please set your IRC client to parse m4)
20:11:46 <tusho> Meanwhile, ais523 is still crazy.
20:12:15 <oerjan> also, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
20:13:26 -!- Judofyr has joined.
20:14:55 <ais523> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mailman+day
20:17:31 <olsner> who would do something as crazy as setting their IRC client to parse m4?
20:18:20 <oerjan> olsner: the answer should be obvious
20:18:36 <fizzie> You can also opt to set your brain to parse m4.
20:18:49 <ais523> fizzie: that isn't physically possible, have you /seen/ m4?
20:19:09 <fizzie> Only the little bit I've run across in autoconfy things.
20:19:10 <olsner> fizzie: hmm, that'd explain alot of the behaviour of people in this channel
20:19:31 <oerjan> And thus, olsner was enlightened.
20:19:32 <olsner> oklo-something has probably done that
20:19:58 <ais523> actually, I imagine that oklopod could quite possibly mentally calculate m4
20:20:17 <ais523> after all, oklopod is programming-the-noun
20:20:18 * oerjan suddenly has an idea for an #esoteric slogan
20:20:25 <tusho> olsner: sez the thue-in-mod_rewrite
20:20:29 <oerjan> "Bringing madness to a planet near you"
20:20:40 <ais523> oerjan: I like that, actually
20:20:40 <olsner> ais523: he'd recite an m4 implementation in BF, more likely
20:20:47 <tusho> also, oklopod could trivially do it, probably
20:20:51 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent.").
20:20:59 * ais523 concludes that Mony must be some form of modern art
20:21:12 <olsner> tusho: bah, that was trivial once I got my compiler done
20:21:14 <oerjan> we have not quite decided that yet
20:22:21 <olsner> curiously though, sed turned out to be the language of choice for writing the compiler
20:22:48 <oerjan> oh no, oklopod has become one of the pod people
20:23:18 <oerjan> ais523: it's a cross between Monet and money
20:24:09 <ais523> olsner: I have a Thue-without-certain-punctuation-marks-to-sed compiler written in sed somewhere
20:25:17 <oklopod> i don't wanna dissappoint you, but i don't know what m4 is.
20:25:30 <oklopod> unless it's like an airplane or something.
20:25:46 <ais523> oklopod: it's a programming language which would be an esolang if less widespread
20:25:54 <oerjan> ais523: let's just say it's probably a planet _very_ near you
20:25:59 <oklopod> then i think i've heard about i
20:26:24 <ais523> oklopod: try running the m4 command on your computer
20:27:09 <ais523> oh in that case m4 is the name of a motorway
20:28:02 <ais523> I'm not very good at m4
20:28:28 <olsner> oklopod: it's the language you write configure.ac and sendmail.conf files in
20:28:42 <ais523> sendmail.conf is written in m4?
20:28:58 <olsner> well, no, one common package for *generating* sendmail configuration files is written in m4
20:29:07 <ais523> that also explains a lot
20:29:09 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:29:10 <olsner> the sendmail config format is worse... *much* worse
20:29:29 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:30:05 <tusho> yay, i have plugins working
20:30:11 <ais523> to think about m4, think of the C preprocessor
20:30:23 <ais523> so that after something was expanded, it checks for macros again
20:30:32 <ais523> then think about a crazy quoting scheme
20:30:38 <ais523> and commands which do illogical things
20:31:17 <oc2k1> Idea: Modified brainfuck: [] is only a if construction and the code tape is an endless loop. Maybe it is also possible to remove the recursion of [] so only a single if(0)goto next if instructions remains...
20:31:18 <ais523> btw, m4 has built-in commands to change its own syntax, which people normally end up using
20:31:38 <ais523> oc2k1: I think that one's been had before
20:32:03 <ais523> but if you like, take a look at http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/pit/sort.i
20:32:09 <tusho> If you cycle the code.
20:32:14 <ais523> that's INTERCAL not Brainfuck
20:32:16 <ais523> but it's the same idea
20:32:29 <tusho> would be an echo program
20:32:30 <ais523> nothing but nested computed ABSTAINs and a loop enclosing the program
20:32:32 <tusho> in a cyclic brainfuck
20:32:49 <oc2k1> ,. would be an echo program
20:33:03 <tusho> oc2k1: you need nested loops
20:33:16 <ais523> I'm actually wondering
20:33:25 <tusho> ais523: i think dbfi has 4 nested loops
20:33:25 <ais523> is 2 enough, for instance?
20:33:33 <ais523> well, it must be at most 4 then
20:33:44 <tusho> ,. doesn't terminate on EOF
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20:34:27 <ais523> tusho: you created an infinitely nested set of loops there!
20:34:47 <tusho> an infinite cyclic brainfuck with []=if echo program is ,[.
20:36:26 <ais523> define(`divert', `ifelse(`$#', `0', ``$0'', `builtin(`$0', $@)')')
20:36:31 <ais523> that's from the GNU m4 manual
20:36:40 <oc2k1> it should be possible to write a BF interpreter with a single loop and if constructions. In that case the nested loops won't be nessesary for turing completenes
20:36:48 <ais523> explaining how to define the divert command not to trigger on random occurences of the word divert inside the text you're operating on
20:37:32 <tusho> a single, program-wide loop + ifs = not turing complete as far as I know
20:37:38 <tusho> even with things like infinite nested ifs like ,[.,
20:37:46 <ais523> tusho: http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/pit/sort.i
20:37:54 <ais523> a single, program-wide loop + ifs
20:38:11 <tusho> can sort.i perform any computation a turing machine can do with unlimited memory?
20:38:22 <ais523> I believe Joris was working on a compiler to compile arbitrary INTERCAL programs into that form
20:38:49 <tusho> ais523: so you think that cyclic brainfuck where [] = if and no infinite [] stacks is TC?
20:38:52 <ais523> I know because e sent me a feature request asking me to fix the way ABSTAIN interacted with array dimensioning
20:38:52 <tusho> i really, really doubt it
20:39:20 <ais523> the INTERCAL version corresponds to nested []
20:39:31 <ais523> but there must be some limit to the nesting
20:39:35 <ais523> and all of them are ifs
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20:39:39 <ais523> with a loop surrounding
20:39:48 <ais523> you'll get some idea of how it works
20:39:57 <tusho> ais523: I don't know INTERCAL.
20:40:03 <oerjan> tusho: it's rather trivial to rewrite a finite state machine as a single loop + ifs. this gives you the core of a turing machine.
20:40:18 <tusho> but it's the non-core bit thats hard...
20:40:38 <ais523> tusho: I think you can do it using variables to hold the location in the program
20:40:42 <oerjan> no it is not the rest is just the infinite tape
20:41:01 <ais523> say you have a BF tape with every other cell empty
20:41:10 <tusho> Well, it's easy to simulate this language with regular BF...
20:41:14 <ais523> you can use the distance from the pointer to the "empty" cell set to 1
20:41:21 <ais523> to record where in the program you are
20:41:27 <tusho> you'd need to copy
20:41:45 <tusho> if anyone can write a bf interp where [] is forbidden, {} is if, and the program is cyclic...be my guest
20:41:47 <tusho> I would love to see it
20:41:59 <tusho> in the modified language
20:42:00 <ais523> bf to that language compiler?
20:42:11 <ais523> or just compile across a BF interp in BF
20:42:18 <ais523> hmm.. dbfi is BF in BF, is it?
20:42:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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20:42:44 <tusho> bf -> language compiler
20:42:47 <tusho> or a program written in that language
20:42:49 <tusho> that interprets bf
20:43:29 <ais523> the case statement structure I'm inventing for gccbf never loops
20:43:45 <ais523> so you just do the program as a case statement in a loop
20:43:56 <ais523> or nested case statements if you have more than 256 commands
20:44:24 <oc2k1> the only disadvantage is that looping have to be emulated by running the full program n times
20:45:56 <ais523> oc2k1: not really, my case statement is quite optimised
20:46:07 -!- Corun has quit (Connection timed out).
20:47:30 <oc2k1> but coding could be very hard, because each recursive if state ment hast to be emulated by non recursive ones
20:47:43 <ais523> we're allowing any number of nested ifs
20:47:50 <ais523> just not whiles apart from around the whole program
20:48:46 <oc2k1> that requires a stack counter ... waste of hard/software
20:49:21 <ais523> just a program counter
20:49:23 <tusho> hardly a waste at all
20:49:26 <tusho> also, ais523 is right
20:49:30 <ais523> it's basically the switch in a loop paradigm
20:49:48 <ais523> which can be used in any language, more or less, to convert the program into ifs surrounded by a loop
20:49:59 <ais523> probably not Malbolge, though
20:50:51 <ais523> PLEASE DO .6<-"&!8$.5'"~'#0$#65535' DO .8<-"?!8$.5'"~'#0$#65535' DO .5<-!6$#0'~"#32767$#1" DO .7<-'V.7$".6~#32768"'~"#0$#65535"
20:50:56 <ais523> I ended up writing that 16 times
20:51:01 <ais523> an unrolled loop to do addition
20:51:17 <ais523> because it was easier and faster than figuring out how to localise the addition loop amongst the rest of the program...
20:51:30 <ais523> ofc (1)DOCOMEFROM".2~.2"~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1" is shorter
20:51:43 <ais523> but that has a loop in so isn't allowed in the TRY AGAIN paradigm
20:51:56 <tusho> http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1600/2h6yet5bk6.jpg
20:52:31 <ais523> incidentally, the above is actually a golfed version to get it into the Slashdot sig limits
20:52:32 <tusho> if i explained it to you i'd have to transcript the whole image
20:52:42 <ais523> although I just noticed its possible to save one character
20:52:44 <tusho> and then it wouldn't be as funny :-P
20:52:51 <ais523> ofc (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1" is shorter
20:53:33 * ais523 is annoyed that tusho doesn't know how to read INTERCAL
20:53:44 <ais523> INTERCAL is one of the easier esolangs to read someone else's program in...
20:54:53 <ais523> someone should add INTERCAL to anagolf
20:55:17 <tusho> golf is dead, long die golf
20:55:32 <ais523> anagolf is still going
20:55:40 <ais523> and codegolf even added a new problem a few months ago
20:55:49 <ais523> which given the speed codegolf goes at is lightning-fast
20:56:43 <tusho> the codegolf stuff is just too difficult
20:56:55 <ais523> just harder than anagold
20:57:03 <ais523> none of the individual programs are hard to right
20:57:11 <ais523> just hard to write golfily
20:57:27 <tusho> I’m going to make the bold promise that we’ll have a new challenge next Friday, but I’ve said that before so we’ll see if it actually happens!
20:57:27 <tusho> Wow, it only seems like 236 yesterdays ago when we added the Tower of Hanoi challenge!
20:57:33 <tusho> ^ codegolf.com in a nutshell
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20:59:30 <tusho> http://www.blue.sky.or.jp/grass/
20:59:38 <tusho> (has english docs scroll down)
21:00:03 <tusho> 2006-2007... how did we not find out about this?!
21:00:51 <ais523> I remember it from somewhere
21:01:06 <ais523> almost certainly there
21:01:14 <tusho> ah: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Grass
21:01:23 <tusho> it looks interesting
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21:04:00 <ais523> beh... Perl needs zip as an operator
21:05:13 <tusho> ok, not as easy as i was thinking
21:05:15 <tusho> because perl sucks
21:05:58 <ais523> that sierpinsky carpet anagolf challenge is the first time I've seen an anagolf challenge and thought "hmm, that would be easy in Matlab"
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21:12:18 <oc2k1> That machine would have a problem: I't impossible to init the memory, but if the memory is et to valid values it may work
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21:16:23 <tusho> what would you guys call a name vs human readable name
21:16:34 <tusho> name='FooBarBAZINATOR!', ???='foobarbazinator'
21:16:43 <tusho> name='Oh Em Gee', ???='oh_em_gee'
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21:17:28 <tusho> i was thinking 'id'
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21:20:52 <oerjan> tusho: also known as ... identifier
21:21:34 <oerjan> are you taking things seriously again?
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21:25:41 <ais523_> my Internet connection is malfunctioning badly...
21:26:08 <ais523_> tusho: did you get my email? I sent you one to see if my email was working
21:26:28 <ais523_> obviously this connection works
21:26:40 <oerjan> time dilation is a bitch
21:26:43 <ais523_> tusho: my laptop's connecting to the router fine
21:26:49 <ais523_> but the router itself seems to have dropped off the internet
21:26:51 <tusho> ais523_: no email from you
21:27:02 <tusho> anyway, are you on a different computer then?
21:27:48 <ais523_> this is a Windows computer
21:28:07 <ais523_> it wouldn't even work on "FrontMotion Firefox", whatever that is
21:28:15 <ais523_> although Help|About says it's Mozilla Firefox
21:28:42 <tusho> http://www.frontmotion.com/Firefox/fmfirefox.htm
21:28:46 <tusho> seems to be for mass deployment
21:29:51 <ais523_> tusho: I sent you another email, or tried ti
21:30:44 <tusho> "let's go pen" -- you
21:30:45 <ais523_> well, obviously this works
21:30:51 <ais523_> tusho: reference to the Fight Arena
21:30:56 <ais523_> that was before my connection went mad
21:33:43 <ais523_> also, I can't leave this room
21:33:49 <ais523_> at least, not if I want to be able to get back in again
21:33:56 <ais523_> they announced that they fixed the door
21:34:03 <ais523_> and of course at that moment it stopped working altogether
21:34:09 <ais523_> luckily there were some people in the room at the time
21:34:15 <ais523_> and it opens from the inside
21:34:28 <ais523_> so once I leave the room there'll be nobody here, and no way to get back in
21:35:35 <ais523_> also, obviously there can't be such a thing as a Web-based ssh client
21:36:38 * oerjan recalls nvg had one at one point
21:36:50 <ais523_> wouldn't be very secure...
21:36:52 <oerjan> only for connecting to nvg though
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21:38:11 <oerjan> you can only connect to http ports?
21:38:25 <ais523_> my main laptop connects to the router but not beyond that
21:38:36 <ais523_> at least, it can't do DNS queries
21:38:45 <ais523_> and even if I enter IPs the data seems to go to /dev/null
21:39:11 <ais523_> this computer can connect to the Web, but not to the UNIX system I sometimes use here
21:39:11 <oklopod> they taught us what /dev/null is today at the university.
21:39:21 <ais523_> and it has no useful programs on for Internet stuff other than ping
21:39:26 <ais523_> also I can't install software on it
21:40:10 <ais523_> hmm... this thing has telnet on
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21:41:03 <ais523_> tusho: could you set up telnet on eso-std.org, or is that too insecure, do you think?
21:41:17 <tusho> you'd be sending your pwd in the plain...
21:41:20 * oerjan recalls nvg disabled telnet years ago
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21:41:43 <tusho> Telnet became obsolete in 1995. :-P
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21:42:17 <tusho> Windows was obsolete before it came out.
21:42:24 <ais523_> hmm... I think I will risk leaving this room
21:42:33 <ais523_> I know, I'll go to a completely separate lab that's open until midnight
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21:43:06 <tusho> Windows was obsolete before it came out: Apple Lisa (then Macintosh)
21:43:13 <tusho> but I doubt they'd be too nice as a desktop OS
21:43:19 <tusho> x11 is painful enough today...
21:43:34 <tusho> er, by other unices i mean non-linux ones
21:43:37 <tusho> due to the lack of linux then
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21:48:15 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | (9:09:13 PM) zmnszctzs: i dont think it runs out of possibilities it has a mapping to train maybe you see the fragments will need to perfect that is the sentence.
21:51:53 <oklopod> zmnszctzs, that was one helluva nick
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21:52:55 <oklopod> i'm gonna fuck off now, if you know what i mean (you don't, btw.) ->
21:54:38 <fungot> fizzie: the whole point of the at command: telling the parser where the pointer ends up
21:54:47 <fizzie> fungot: Right, right, just checking.
21:54:47 <fungot> fizzie: interface and behavior, that is
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22:33:51 <tusho> ais523 is taking his time
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